A Look Back at Supernatural Season 8: Musings From Bamboo24
Perceptions
As I said before, the things we go through in life change us. One of the things that often undergoes transformation in the midst of loss, transition, or some other life event, is our perspectives. Carver brought this concept full-circle in season eight. Many of the perceptions revealed this season have been ingrained in Sam and Dean since even before the Pilot and have never been resolved, nor fully brought to light, partially because we spent a good five seasons learning about them. But by season eight, their perceptions of each other had slowly begun to tear the brothers’ relationship apart.
I think season eight, like life, is best understood in reverse. Clarity usually comes at the end of the journey, not the beginning, and certainly not in the thick of it. And I think that was key to Carver’s vision – patience paid off. We didn’t truly understand where Sam was coming from until he became too weak to hide it from us anymore. He had to be stripped raw. And then suddenly his perceptions, both of himself and his brother, became vividly clear. Likewise with Dean, who didn’t reveal his true feelings until he realized Sam was on the brink of death. It took the trials to bring the brothers close again, to rekindle their brotherly bond.
Another thing I appreciated about Carver’s direction is that through all this, he acknowledged the consequences of the trauma the brother’s had experienced in prior years. It started out understated and grew into what we were given in the finale, which was pure Winchester Gold.
A Look Back: Sam
I’ve always wondered what it does to a person like Sam, the little brother trying so hard to be like his big brother, to live up to those expectations, when his attempt to save his brother is tainted with failure and overshadowed by a being like Castiel, or when despair leads to poor judgment with apocalyptic consequences, or when saving the world ends up being a penance rather than a sacrifice, or when being saved means losing your soul, and regaining it means reliving over 100 years of torture and pain.
The biggest reveal of all was Sam. Sam, who’d been through so many changes over the past few years it was hard to know what he was feeling/thinking anymore. How had those experiences affected Sam’s view of himself, of his brother?
“I realized I could never go on a quest like that, because I’m not pure.”
“You want to know what I confessed in there? What my greatest sin was? It was how many times I let you down.”
These statements really pulled the curtain back on Sam’s actions at the beginning of the season. This was a brother whose self-worth had been so crippled by the mistakes and horrors of the past that, when his “world imploded” again, all he could do was run. He wasn’t going to try to look for Dean again because every time he’d gone down that path in the past, it’d ended with failure. Better to run. Better to quit. When Dean returned, Sam expressed surprise and joy at finding out his brother was alive, but after that, it was all shame. Because once again, according to Dean (the only one whose opinion really mattered), Sam had made the wrong choice.
Many of us didn’t understand Sam’s actions in the beginning, just as Dean didn’t understand them, because we couldn’t see how broken Sam really was until the end. We couldn’t see Sam’s vulnerability until he was forced to crack under the physical and emotional strain of the trials. And through those cracks, in episodes like “The Great Escape” and “Sacrifice” we saw a Sam who views himself as impure, unworthy. Who perceives that Dean thinks he’s a screw-up, untrustworthy, that he would turn to an angel or vampire for help before he’d ever turn to Sam.
For Sam, the trials had become a means of redemption. Purification. Sam was willing to do whatever it took to not be a disappointment again. Even if it meant death. And when even that was taken away from him, all he had left was Dean.
“I can’t do this without you.”
“You can barely do it with me – you think I screw up everything I try; you think I need a chaperone, remember?”
“What happens when you decide I can’t be trusted again? Who are you going to turn to next time, instead of me – another angel? Another-another vampire?”
Dean, in fact, had never viewed Sam as a screw-up; but rather had incredible faith in his little brother…he just had some trouble expressing it to Sam. But isn’t that often how it is? We love our family, would do anything for them, are there when it counts, but because of history and familiarity what often comes out of our mouths are criticisms and complaints – especially when our loved ones don’t rise to our expectations or hurt us unintentionally. It sure was an eye-opener for Dean – the look on his face when Sam admitted his greatest perceived sin was pure shock mingled with empathy.
A Look Back – Dean
And what of Dean, the older brother who is clearly still walking just shy of suicidal ideation? “Southern Comfort” and “Trial and Error” also pulled back the veil on some deeply rooted issues. Dean still perceives himself as a “grunt” without a future – someone who’s ultimately responsible for everything, and feels like he’s failed everyone he’s ever cared about. He perceives Sam as secretly hating him for dragging him into the hunting life, and still suffers from abandonment issues. And the hurts from the past still, though forgiven, still run deep.
Dean needed Purgatory to break the cycle of alcoholism and despair he’d been stuck in throughout season seven. But Purgatory also gave him another push toward sociopathy. Dean’s always been a little too eager to pull a weapon on someone, be they human or supernatural, but season eight was the only time the action contained an unhinged quality. The paradox of Dean’s character arc in season eight is that, while he found a higher moral plane in Purgatory – befriending a monster – his conscious had been morally blunted in other areas, as evidence by his willingness to murder Mrs. Tran just to get to Crowley. When Dean pulled out his gun in “Trial and Error” and started talking about how he’s “the best” at what he does, well, frankly, it scared me a little. I imagine it wouldn’t take much for Dean to be pushed over the edge, and that Sam is often the only thing standing between him and the cliff.
How desperately he needed to hear Cas tell him that he’s not responsible for everyone, or hear Sam tell him he’s a “genius,” that he believed in Dean, that he was willing to take Dean to that “light at the end of the tunnel.” I was so, so glad Dean’s mental health was addressed – however briefly – this season. It needed to be said out loud. Sam needed to know that the best future Dean could imagine for himself involved dying with a gun in his hand. That speech, in my opinion, was long overdue.
Still, I don’t think we saw Dean’s character arc come full circle this season the way Sam’s did. I hope we get more in season nine.
Perception vs. Reality
Now there are perceptions, and then there is reality. In reality, we had some genuine conflict-resolution in season eight.
I recently read an intuitive NYTimes article with the following quote: “
[The fallacy] is that we believe unconditional love means not seeing anything negative about someone, when it really means pretty much the opposite: loving someone despite their infuriating flaws and essential absurdity…We don’t give other people credit for the same interior complexity we take for granted in ourselves, the same capacity for holding contradictory feelings in balance, for complexly alloyed affections, for bottomless generosity of heart and petty, capricious malice. We can’t believe that anyone could be unkind to us and still be genuinely fond of us, although we do it all the time.”
– http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/15/i-know-what-you-think-of-me/?smid=fb-share&_r=0
Basically, Sam and Dean both did a little growing up this season, realizing that they could indeed choose to look past the hurts and hypocrisies, seeing the brotherly love underneath. As Carver put it: “[It’s about] two brothers that are maturing and changing, and may not always act or be the way that we would hope them to be. We as people are not as people hope wed be, and just because were not what others hope we are doesnt mean its wrong.”
This was the message of season eight. Our heroes are flawed, and deeply so. They are imperfect. They are family with tons of baggage. And it was time for that to be addressed. It was time for them to grow up a little, to see each other with news eyes. It was time to throw away unrealistic expectations that only resulted in burden and disappointment, and instead treat each other with mutual respect and real unconditional love, as brothers and men.
But to get there, we needed conflict. And we had it from the very first episode, when Sam expressed frustration at Dean’s hypocritical treatment of Kevin. Sam had expressed concern about Kevin’s safety, and Dean, all about the mission, said he was “in it now, whether he likes it or not.” Sam replied, “So free will – that’s only for you?” Because Dean, due to his own insecurities, wasn’t willing to let Kevin walk away from being a prophet who could help them close the Gates of Hell. And, as we would see, he wasn’t willing to acknowledge Sam’s desire to leave the hunt when it was all over.
Then we had Dean finding out that Sam didn’t look for him, didn’t hunt, didn’t look for Kevin at all during that year. Dean was less hurt than he was jealous of Sam’s ability to walk away. Yes, in “Southern Comfort,” ramped up anger of even long-forgiven hurts caused him to pull a gun on his own brother. “You left me to die, for a GIRL?!” But I don’t think Dean would truly begrudge his brother any good thing. What it really was about, and he admitted it finally, in “Torn and Frayed,” was jealousy. “And, you know, maybe Im a little bit jealous. I could never separate myself from the job like you could.” Dean was raised to be a soldier. Fate, guilt, thirst for revenge, and a lack of knowing much else keep him tethered to a job he’s good at, but deep down wishes he didn’t have to do. Being a hunter has always been Dean’s identity. But not Sam’s. Sam had a more sheltered upbringing, a more normal childhood, plus almost four years at Stanford. Normal was something he always wanted, but – after learning of his psychic abilities and demon blood – he convinced himself it was something he didn’t want and couldn’t have. When he found himself alone and without a roadmap after Dean’s disappearance, he discovered it was indeed possible to have a normal life. And that realization changed him profoundly. I would daresay it gave him renewed hope and a sense of peace. “I see light at the end of this tunnel. And if you come with me, I can take you to it.”
Then there was Benny. And here again, the issue was Sam’s anger at Dean’s hypocrisy. What Dean did to Amy Pond in season seven was something that had hurt Sam significantly, a situation which he brought up in “Southern Comfort” when demanding to know why Benny was still alive. Dean admitted that he’d changed. But I could understand Sam’s frustration. This was his big brother, in many ways his teacher, recanting his own lesson. And what a harsh lesson it was.
The anger turned to hurt when, in “Citizen Fang,” Dean told Sam that Benny was the only one who’d never let him down. And that was where things spiraled. Like Amy, Benny had turned his back on killing, finding non-violent means of survival. Like Amy, Benny killed to save a loved one. Unlike Amy, Dean let Benny live. And he went behind his brother’s back, betraying his trust, to do it. I will never forget Sam saying, “is that what we are? You save a vampire by making me believe that the woman I love might be dead?” The hurt went deep.
Dean: “Okay, well, then, what the hell do we do now?”
Sam: “That depends. It depends on you. On whether or not youre done with him.”
Sam just wanted Dean to choose him. To trust him the way Sam trusted Dean. When Dean killed Amy, Sam had forgiven him because he realized Dean was “just trying to make sure no one else got hurt.” Yet Dean was unwilling to extend the same grace to Sam.
Sam: “You know, Ive been going over this and over this, asking myself ‘why doesnt he trust me?’ And it occurred to me, finally. Its not that you dont trust me. Its that you can only trust you.”
It almost tore them apart. It took something bigger than themselves – Cas in need, a mission to close the Gates of Hell – to bring a truce. But only the trials would bring out the truth and remind them again of what it meant to be brothers.
Just go back and watch that last scene again in “Sacrifice.”
It had to hurt before the healing could start.
A Look Back at Season Eight: Wrap-Up:
So when it was all said and done, what were we left with?
Sam still views Dean with little-brother hero-worship, and Dean is still the big-brother/protector he’s always been – but they both have renewed respect and understanding for each other. And they’ve reached a place where they feel comfortable being more emotionally honest with one another. That’s maturity.
Things weve long known or suspected about Dean or Sam are now in the open and have been addressed in some degree, from the guilt-complexes to the suicidal ideations to the self-worth issues and past betrayals swept under the rug. And weve arrived at something remarkably honest and mature, yet simple:
A not-so-little brother who still needs looked after, who still looks up to his big brother with adulation, who needs to be loved and trusted and believed in. And a big brother who still needs to be needed, who is incredibly proud of his little brother, who needs to be loved and trusted and believed in.
Not that there wont be further issues, sibling rivalries, and character development, Im sure. But this is certainly fresh territory, and I’m looking forward to what season nine brings.
Thanks for reading.
Beautiful Bamboo. I think there were tears in my eyes reading this. One of the discussions I’ve read here is about Dean and/or Sam not showing forgiveness. But we can forgive, infact not even blame someone, but still feel hurt by something they say or do. Dean’s place this year was to verbalize that hurt. But Sam was mostly silent until the end. Perhaps going forward they can start to be equally open with eachother without inflicting too much pain, or at least try.
Thanks! I agree, forgiveness was definitely an undertone of this season. I have to imagine in the last scene of “Sacrifice” where Dean tells Sam to “let it go” and the camera cuts to Dean’s face, the look in his eyes, that he was speaking to himself as well.
In telling Sam to let the past go and forgive himself, he also had to be willing to let it all go and forgive Sam. That was a healing hug, and, I feel, a fresh start for the brothers, which I hope continues into S9. 🙂
Wow. Just – wow! Thank you so much. This should be required reading for every fan and/or viewer that watches the show. Did I mention, wow?
I’m glad you liked it; thank you! 🙂
Thank you for this beautiful overview! It helped me connect some dots I had not picked up on while watching. You made my Day !I can not for season 9! You are a great writer, the boys would be happy to have such a great fan.:)
Thank you – I’m glad I could help connect the dots! 🙂
So nice Bamboo!! I am still having a little trouble with accepting how the early season played out and the things that were said and done that will forever be a source of conflict in the fandom. However I am in total agreement with your assessment of why something like this was needed and that the finale was Winchester gold. I also think you nailed the inner working of the brothers motivations and why they reacted how they did.
I especially loved this “A not-so-little brother who still needs looked after, who still looks up to his big brother with adulation, who needs to be loved and trusted and believed in. And a big brother who still needs to be needed, who is incredibly proud of his little brother, who needs to be loved and trusted and believed in.”
Thank you for this Bamboo. 🙂
Thanks Leah! I understand; I think everyone fan has their scenes or episodes or story arcs or even whole seasons that they have trouble accepting – I could certainly name a few for myself.
Bamboo, thank you for this well-written and thoughtful article.
Just some of my thoughts about this season – in the beginning of it, Sam and Dean were coming from very different experiences, obviously. Sam had tried having a normal life and Dean had been fighting for his life 24/7. The normal life thing wasn’t working out for Sam so he went to Rufus’s cabin (the only home left to him) to sort things out and encountered warrior Dean who had escaped from Purgatory. I think Sam was still trying to sort things out for the first part of the season hence processing the flashbacks with Amelia while hunting with Dean. He didn’t have any real focus or commitment even after Dean asked him to be in or get out. I think, combined with the the possibilities of the MoL bunker, it was Dean’s speech about being a grunt and dying young that snapped him out of it. Just as Dean wants Sam to live a long, happy life so Sam wants that for Dean. I think he wanted to take on the trials mostly to stop Dean from doing them while Dean wanted to take them on because he identified himself as a hunter and hunters keep evil things from hurting innocent people. So, their motivations for doing the trials were different, but in keeping with their personal goals throughout the whole series – Dean being a hunter/protector and Sam not leaving his brother out there alone, keeping him alive and well. It also became a way for him to prove himself to Dean as the season went on, but I don’t think that was his conscious motivation in the beginning.
And, in Sacrifice, after Sam made his confession and eavesdropped on Dean and Cas’s conversation, Dean tells Sam to start the demon cure process and keep with it even if Dean is late getting back. I think it is at that moment Sam knows he is going to die and he is determined to do it. Something about that moment…There is a look on Sam’s face…Anyway, I’d love someone to ask Jared when Sam knew, really knew, that completing the trials would cost him his life.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Thanks again, Bamboo!
[quote] I think, combined with the the possibilities of the MoL bunker, it was Dean’s speech about being a grunt and dying young that snapped him out of it. Just as Dean wants Sam to live a long, happy life so Sam wants that for Dean. I think he wanted to take on the trials mostly to stop Dean from doing them while Dean wanted to take them on because he identified himself as a hunter and hunters keep evil things from hurting innocent people. So, their motivations for doing the trials were different, but in keeping with their personal goals throughout the whole series – Dean being a hunter/protector and Sam not leaving his brother out there alone, keeping him alive and well. It also became a way for him to prove himself to Dean as the season went on, but I don’t think that was his conscious motivation in the beginning. [/quote]
Well said! I agree – the MOL discovery and Dean’s willingness to go out in a blaze of glory with the trials certainly brought the mission into focus for Sam and gave him renewed purpose. I think my emphasis on Sam proving himself from the beginning comes from an assumption on my part that proving himself – to his father, to Dean – has always been a part of Sam’s internal makeup, which is why he has been so affected by his “failure to measure up” over the years, whether real or perceived. So, not so much a conscious motivation, but a subconscious one.
[quote]And, in Sacrifice, after Sam made his confession and eavesdropped on Dean and Cas’s conversation, Dean tells Sam to start the demon cure process and keep with it even if Dean is late getting back. I think it is at that moment Sam knows he is going to die and he is determined to do it. Something about that moment…There is a look on Sam’s face… [/quote]
That was such a loaded moment, wasn’t it? And Jared played it superbly. I think you’re right – I would describe the look on Sam’s face in that scene as one of resigned despair.
[…I think my emphasis on Sam proving himself from the beginning comes from an assumption on my part that proving himself – to his father, to Dean – has always been a part of Sam’s internal makeup, which is why he has been so affected by his “failure to measure up” over the years, whether real or perceived. So, not so much a conscious motivation, but a subconscious one…]
I would think Sam would feel like the odd one out since Dean and his father ‘shared’ hunting (although for different reasons) and his interests lay elsewhere which would make it all the more problematic for him to ‘measure up’ to his father’s (and brother’s) expectations. That dynamic almost set Sam up from the start. Brilliant article!
My impression is that Sam is determined to do something right and complete the trials to make up for past errors. Although Kevin has informed both of them that the trials could be fatal, I do not think he is truly aware of his demise until Dean tells him it will kill him and then he says”So?” as if at that moment he is willing to die in order to get the job done rather than disappoint Dean again.
What a read. This is wonderful, Bamboo and almost exactly how I see Season 8. I completely enjoyed this past year and I think Carver has brought back the heart of the show, but in a way that makes complete sense with the growth and maturity of Sam and Dean.
I think that Purgatory was the best thing that ever happened to Dean, because it finally, once and for all, told him who he was. A hunter, pure and simple. There will never be an apple pie life for him. It’s just not who he is and now he’s 100% positive of that. It was a cleansing for him.
In a way Dean going to Purgatory changed Sam too. Mainly because it was the final nail in the coffin for his own sanity…he let Dean down one more time and in the second half of Season 8, that pushed him to the very edge of suicide/self sacrifice only to be saved by baring his soul and then allowing himself to be pulled from that edge by the only person who could ever get through to him…even if in Sam’s eyes…he’d only let his brother down time after time.
And in the end…you are so right. These guys, no matter their abilities to kill, hunt and save the world…it all comes down to they desperately need each other’s approval, forgiveness, love and trust. As you say…it’s so very simple when you lay it out. And that need, makes them more human than just about any other characters on television.
I do love how Season 8 was left so open. There really was no resolution to anything except bringing the boys back together in a way they so very much needed. It leaves so many possibilities for Season 9. Clearly Carver had a vision something beyond Season 8 and we had to slowly build to wherever Season 9 is gonna take us.
Anyway, totally enjoyed your take on Season 9.
[quote]I completely enjoyed this past year and I think Carver has brought back the heart of the show, but in a way that makes complete sense with the growth and maturity of Sam and Dean.[/quote]
Yes, that”s how I see it too – Carver’s gotten back to the heart of the show – and all the hugging of this past year serves as pretty convincing evidence, I think! Glad you enjoyed the article.
[quote]I think season eight, like life, is best understood in reverse. Clarity usually comes at the end of the journey, not the beginning, and certainly not in the thick of it. And I think that was key to Carver’s vision – patience paid off. [/quote]
Yes! BIG YES! Thank you Bamboo24 for a wonderful article. I also had tears welling as I read this (and I was at work at the time). Awkward 😳
I think Jeremy Carver has injected new life and energy into Supernatural; which is such a great achievement for a show in its eighth season. It is so refreshing to read your thoughts about the season as a whole; particularly as I’m currently burnt out from reading posts from people that are still airing discontent about Sam’s storyline.
I happen to be one of the few (or at least it seems like it at times) that accepted that Sam was just too broken by Dean’s disappearance to carry on. That he didn’t know what to do; that he fixed the impala and just drove. After everything he’d been through, it wasn’t a big leap for me to believe this and I don’t think it was out of character at all. I think it was a different response to what he’d done previously; but I could understand it.
Did I wonder if there was more to the story? Yes, I did. But did it bother me when there wasn’t? No, it didn’t.
I’m also with you on the point that Sam felt shame when he realised that Dean was alive and he hadn’t looked for him. I think that’s why he didn’t go into great detail about his year off hunting, because he felt guilty that Dean had been in purgatory while he was living a normal life. I think this is why he put up with Dean’s disappointment in him, until the end of Southern Comfort, when he’d finally had enough – “You’ve been kicking me ever since you got back.”
What you wrote about Sam really sums it up for me:
[quote]Many of us didn’t understand Sam’s actions in the beginning, just as Dean didn’t understand them, because we couldn’t see how broken Sam really was until the end. We couldn’t see Sam’s vulnerability until he was forced to crack under the physical and emotional strain of the trials. And through those cracks, in episodes like “The Great Escape†and “Sacrifice†we saw a Sam who views himself as impure, unworthy. Who perceives that Dean thinks he’s a screw-up, untrustworthy, that he would turn to an angel or vampire for help before he’d ever turn to Sam.[/quote]
Thanks again for a brilliant article. I hope you write some more 😀
[quote]
I happen to be one of the few (or at least it seems like it at times) that accepted that Sam was just too broken by Dean’s disappearance to carry on. That he didn’t know what to do; that he fixed the impala and just drove. After everything he’d been through, it wasn’t a big leap for me to believe this and I don’t think it was out of character at all. I think it was a different response to what he’d done previously; but I could understand it.
[/quote]
Agree, and I think maybe ‘what he’d done previously’ perhaps weighed on him. Last time Dean went away, Sam turned into a demon-blood sucking dark-side leaning type…he didn’t have Dean to draw him back from that…so perhaps this time, just removing himself from hunting all together, allowed him to stay away from anything that might ‘change’ him yet again. Despite his grief, he’d learned from the past.
But no doubt, his decision to not look for Dean played a huge part in Sam’s ultimate “So?” reaction when Dean game to talk him off the edge of the trials, and then his ultimate confession about letting Dean down. Season 8 ties together very nicely watching all the way through.
Aw, thank you! 🙂
Nice article, Bamboo24.
I appreciate your interpretation of the season, and I always enjoy reading your posts. I can see what Carver was trying to achieve.
Thanks st50! I’m glad you liked the article even though we may not share the same interpretation/opinion of the season. Means a lot.
Interesting article. My one quibble would be that Dean has a suicide ideation. I think it’s just a realistic attitude that hunters don’t have a long life span. They usually die while hunting with their guns in their hands and I think Dean plans on always being a hunter.
A valid quibble! 🙂 You may be right – and I’m sure Dean would take offense if anyone ever told him he had suicidal ideation. Sam did use the phrase “suicide mission,” which Dean did not object to. I do think he views death realistically, but I also think at times he is eager for it, that he longs for it, and unhealthily so. It was more evident in S7 than S8, since Purgatory gave Dean a renewed sense of purpose. But I totally see where you’re coming from!
I think Dean acts with a bravado he doesn’t necessarily feel in order to shore up himself and others. If he didn’t have a survivor’s instincts he would have died that first night in purgatory when even Cass went MIA. It could also be that he’s died and come back so many times that death doesn’t seem so scary to him. Heaven, hell, purgatory, he’s done it all.
[quote]I think Dean acts with a bravado he doesn’t necessarily feel in order to shore up himself and others. [/quote]
Agree 100%, well put.
I think one can have bravado and survivor’s instincts and still want to die, though. There are many who struggle with wanting to die but are (thankfully) unable to commit the act. And Dean’s instinct to fight to the last is hardwired.
Excellent article, Bamboo; thanks! I agree with you pretty much down the line. 🙂
Thank you! 😀
Interesting article and agree with lots of it.
Though disagree with regard to some of the stuff about Benny as in reality Amy and Benny were two different situations even if in Sam’s head he wouldn’t distinguish that. Though if Carver addresses that in season 9 it could be interesting as I found a lot of that situation leaving a very bad taste in my mouth considering the dead body on the floor in that one was a person introduced into the situation by Sam compared to Amy’s hunting people down we never got to know.
The ‘resolution’ in Taxi Driver didn’t cut it for me.
I think many share the view that the Benny situation was different from the Amy situation – personally I can’t be convinced. However, I don’t think the similarity in situations justifies Sam’s reaction to Benny, it merely explains it. The first half of the season went a long way in addressing old grudges held by both brothers. I think Amy was the catalyst for Sam’s grudge against Benny. And I agree; I think ‘Taxi Driver’ was more of a truce than a resolution.
Thanks for commenting!
Your welcome and thanks for the article.
But putting Amy into this does leave a bad taste in my mouth because Dean killing Amy never had anything to do with his situation with Sam. Sure he kept it from him but at no point during it was Sam’s relationship with Amy part of Dean’s motivation in her death, it was solely his motivation in keeping it from Sam. His killing her was solely due to him knowing she had killed and had shown that at some point she could do it again seeing how there was no guarantee that her boy would never get sick again. Also Dean never raised a hand to killed Ruby because Sam was too close to her, it was because she was a demon and when Sam asked him to trust him and he did and look at the mess.
The reciprocal act from Amy was Sam killing Emma – who seeing how she hadn’t killed at that point is a bit icky but I got Sam panicked in seeing a monster who he knew had be sent to kill Dean in the room even if she wasn’t an actual threat at that second.
But Benny’s relationship with Dean seemed to be the major reason for the 180 Sam took in watching him when he never had any other monster they let go watched. He was wanting Benny to screw up rather hoping he wouldn’t like everyother monster he argued to be let go – but why?
I got Sam was pissed and he didn’t get Dean’s turn around but we saw the process of how and why Benny and Dean worked together and the trust was built even if Dean was uncomfortable about it. But Sam’s actions pushed him into becoming more of a hypocrite than he accused Dean of being. Especially if Amy fuelled his actions in any shape or form because what exactly had Benny done at that point? Nothing apart from be. Sam going after Benny like he did because of Amy when he was happy not to track Kate down a couple of episodes before means he wasn’t even protecting Dean from a creature that he didn’t get the motives of post purgatory for getting close to Dean – it was revenge. But revenge against who? Revenge against Benny who had done nothing to him? Or revenge against Dean?
If it is the later that means Sam played a part in Benny’s world imploding and Martin’s death because he was pissed at Dean and that doesn’t paint him in a good light especially considering he held onto that hurt of that text rather than focusing on the dead man on the floor a dead man who Sam brought into the situation. (a little remorse at Martin’s death would be good.)
Bringing Amy in to it and hanging onto that text means that Benny, and by extension Martin and Elizabeth got dragged into Sam and Dean’s problems and the three of them got put in physical danger – not Sam at all. Which wasn’t right because what did Benny himself do to Sam for Sam to justify that turnaround – he barely talked to the man. And you can’t say Sam had a huge change of heart with regard to monsters either considering how both boys let Kate the werewolf go a couple of episodes before (so giving Dean growth and consistency about his own confusion about monsters who haven’t killed outside self defence. But it pushed Sam into hypocrite with regards to Benny as a girl who makes a video can go out into the world without someone watching but not being that saved your brother can’t when your brother speaks up for him, a brother who has taken your word about letting monsters go on a number of occasions apart from once when your knew that the monster had killed four for motives that weren’t self defense?).
Now if Carver deals with that great, it would be great growth for Sam, he did have in the speech in Sacrifice which had the bit about Sam feeling hurt about him turning to a vampire rather than him.
But part of the trials was Sam believing that the Demon blood was part of the reason he wasn’t good enough, that he was unpure that was part of his failings. But you could never describe Benny as pure and like it or not Benny never did let Dean down, which Sam says is his greatest failing. Sam has to square that and his response to it and saying Benny wasn’t what he thought in the car to Dean a bit grudgingly at the end of Taxi Driver after what both Benny and Sam did doesn’t cut it.
Sorry there were lots of typos in that was typing it early in the morning.
But basically, it might be nice for some to think that Sam was getting justice for Amy, but if that is what he is doing with regards to his actions with Benny then he comes across as a nasty piece of work as he was the only one that didn’t get physcially threatened or attacked and his feelings being hurt or his fears being used against him is not in the same league as what Elizabeth, Martin and Benny suffered.
😆 Wonderful article and spot on. I tried to make many of these same points to my friends on other sites, especially when they became discouraged about how the season was going. That there would be a payoff for all the anguish at the beginning.
This article though :AWESOME! 😀
Yes, it’s easy now to look back and say, “see! I told you!” But in reality, we never know if there’s actually going to be a payoff. IMO we didn’t really get one in S7. But it’s something one can’t help but hope for, and optimism is always preferable to pessimism.
I’m glad you liked the article! 🙂
beautiful article, i agree with every word. thanks for saying it all so eloquently 😆
Thank you!
Someone referred your article to me on another page, and since I responded and discussed it there, it only seems fair that I repost here so that you can respond if you would like. Odd as it sounds, I felt like I was talking behind your back on the internet (?), which felt wrong. 😕 So here it is, with slight editing for tenses and whatnot and some additional thoughts, because I tend to get wordier the more I think.
I think you did a fine job analyzing Sam’s state of mind as it was ultimately revealed, even if it didn’t really become clear until the very end. I certainly think show could have done a better job with showing him having that POV throughout the season instead of pulling it out as the big dramatic moment at in the finale. I did like your line about it being a journey, though, so I’m going to try to adopt that philosophy when viewing Sam this season. It might be a work in progress for a while, but I’m going to try.
I also agree with some of your insights on Dean. I definitely agree that Dean has conflicting issues regarding Sam and normal. I do believe he wants Sam to be happy, and in his heart of hearts he wants Sam to have the normal he’s pined for. That’s why he told Sam to go after his normal in Torn and Frayed. But the truth is for both Sam and Dean, Dean is so tightly bound up in hunting that it’s hard to separate them in their minds. One seems to go with the other. Sam lost Dean and couldn’t face hunting without him. When Dean came back, Sam returned to hunting and seemed to resent both. When Dean speaks about Sam dropping hunting, he’s also talking about Sam dropping him. Sam has never been particularly clear about how he saw himself keeping his brother and normal, too, and by past experience I think it’s safe to infer that Dean fears that when Sam talks about leaving hunting behind means he will leave Dean behind as well. I think it’s similarly hard for Sam to reconcile Dean and hunting as two separate entities at times. So to me, that’s something they definitely need to talk about, even if Sam isn’t going anywhere presumably until the end of the series.
I don’t think Dean’s jealousy line can solely be referring to the fact that Sam could separate from the life. I just can’t see Dean still pining after normal, considering how much time show spent giving him his new clarity and renewed sense of purpose. That line didn’t make much sense to me, honestly.I think it’s jealousy that Sam can seemingly walk away without being torn up, while Dean can’t. Dean doesn’t see himself able to separate from his calling or his brother, and I think he seems Sam as able to walk away from both without pain. Is that what you meant? As you said, I don’t think Dean’s journey has nearly been finished yet, though I hope S9 will get there.
My critique of the article is that for me the analysis a little one-sided in terms of the brothers’ conflict. Dean seems to have all of the blame for the problems between them, and I didn’t see Sam’s faults in dealing with Dean this season addressed. Every action described seemed to lay the blame at Dean’s feet, instead of recognizing that both brothers held responsibility. Now, in no way are you obligated to muse on anything you don’t actually feel, but to me, it felt very much like Dean was accountable for all his faults despite his issues while Sam was excused because of his. Don’t get me wrong, Dean needs to answer for his actions, but I think there are definitely mistakes that Sam made in dealing with Dean that need to be acknowledged and dealt with, too, and the big gesture of the finale was never going to do that. That causes problems for me, but of course, perspectives vary and that’s fine.
Oh, and the conclusion is problematic to me because it seemingly praises roles that both brothers need to step beyond. Sam does not need to be the little brother who still needs to be looked after and puts his big brother on a pedestal that doesn’t allow him to see Dean as a person. Dean does not need to be the big brother who finds his value solely in his little brother’s achievements and his ability to take care of Sam while putting Sam in a little brother box he no longer wants to be in. That’s why I think Dean and Sam took a step back this season—we’re right back where we started, except now it’s a good thing because they’re being honest about it? Maybe I’m misinterpreting.
Thank you for posting your thoughts here! 🙂
[quote]I think it’s jealousy that Sam can seemingly walk away without being torn up, while Dean can’t. Dean doesn’t see himself able to separate from his calling or his brother, and I think he seems Sam as able to walk away from both without pain. Is that what you meant? [/quote]
That is what I think Dean meant – I think the guilt and responsibility of the Job have always weighed on Dean differently than Sam. I do believe Dean – deep down – wishes he could have a normal life just as much as Sam, however his experiences have convinced him that it’s something he must resign himself never to have. His sense of duty will never let him walk away. Sam does not have the same sense or understanding of duty toward the Job. Dean doesn’t understand that and at the same time envies it. That’s how I understood the “jealousy” line.
[quote]My critique of the article is that for me the analysis a little one-sided in terms of the brothers’ conflict. Dean seems to have all of the blame for the problems between them, and I didn’t see Sam’s faults in dealing with Dean this season addressed. Every action described seemed to lay the blame at Dean’s feet, instead of recognizing that both brothers held responsibility.
[/quote]
Oh my, I certainly never intended to come across as blaming one brother or laying problems at the feet of one brother over the other. I don’t even keep score like that. In my mind, it’s not about who hurt who most or weighing the wrong of each brother to see which comes up worst. That just never enters into my thinking regarding the show. I love that they’re both portrayed as humans with flaws and needs. I don’t think there needs to be a balance sheet of sins and repentance or excuses and blame – I just love a good story.
I do think there’s going to be bias in any perspective or interpretation – I don’t think I’m immune. That being said, I will say this: I’ve always understood Dean’s motivations more clearly because I identify with his character as an older sibling. I have to admit that Dean’s been my favorite for that reason. Perhaps I’m harder on him for that reason. I think it’s natural for more responsibility to fall on the older sibling – for better or worse, oftentimes we lead the way and set the tone. And perhaps as an older sibling I do what Dean often does – excuse and forgive the younger sibling’s faults out love. If it is the former, it’s not a conscious thing; it is something ingrained in me. And if it’s the latter; I don’t think it’s wrong or anything different that what younger siblings are inclined to do: forgive the faults of the older sibling out of love.
As for Sam – his character has felt distant to me until this season. This season, I reconnected with Sam’s heart and soul. Did he make mistakes? Sure. Though I think one of the things we learned from S8 though, is that no one can punish Sam more than Sam secretly punishes himself for his mistakes. I think both brothers carry their burdens in different ways.
I DO agree that there are things that still need to be acknowledged from both characters – of course, there will probably always be. Yay, S9!
[quote]the conclusion is problematic to me because it seemingly praises roles that both brothers need to step beyond. Sam does not need to be the little brother who still needs to be looked after and puts his big brother on a pedestal that doesn’t allow him to see Dean as a person. Dean does not need to be the big brother who finds his value solely in his little brother’s achievements and his ability to take care of Sam while putting Sam in a little brother box he no longer wants to be in. That’s why I think Dean and Sam took a step back this season—we’re right back where we started, except now it’s a good thing because they’re being honest about it? Maybe I’m misinterpreting .[/quote]
Well…I do think there is some misinterpretation here. First, I don’t see those roles as wrong or problematic. Don’t we all need to be needed and looked after? Isn’t that a large part of what it means to be family? Sam and Dean are adults, but they are also brothers, and the only family they have. Even in adulthood, I’m looking out for my younger siblings as best I can, and it makes me feel good to be needed. Don’t we all have people we look up to? I have a bit of hero-worship for my dad – it doesn’t at all mean that I don’t see him as a person. And I don’t think caring for a younger sibling has to be so patronizing that it puts them in a box. These roles can be healthy and normal. They can also be unhealthy and abnormal. I believe what we got this season was a step toward the more healthy and normal. That’s all.
Anyway, I hope that helps clarify some things!
Thank you for the clarifications, and I hope I didn’t come across too offensively.
While I’m not sure Dean even really pines for a normal life anymore, I do agree that he doesn’t see any possibility of walking away from his calling any further, nor does he really see it for anyone else in the life, so to speak. I think it baffles him that Sam does, and he’s caught between that longing for Sam to really be happy and that fear that if Sam does attain that normal he will be completely shut out. I think in some ways he may even envy Sam’s ability to walk away from him, because he knows that he can’t do that even if it would save him some heartache. That’s the only way the jealousy line makes sense to me, because I really don’t see signs of him really even wanting normal any longer. It’s odd.
As for the conflict, I don’t think it’s a matter of keeping score as much as it is a matter of just acknowledging that it is at least two-sided. I didn’t get that sense in the article. Honestly, from reading it, I didn’t get the sense that Dean was your favorite at all. It pretty much seemed like a list of all the ways he’d done Sam wrong this season, with no balance. We all bring our own experiences and biases to the table, and as an older sibling with a younger sibling who pretty much for many years took forgiveness as a given without being willing to show any sign of being willing to earn it, I find giving a pass without that a sign of regret very problematic. As the older sibling, I don’t think it’s fair to expect Dean to always lead the way and set the tone and make the peace, especially as an adult. For it to be an equal relationship, there needs to be some give and take, which I didn’t feel like I saw this year or in this article. Saying, “Well, no one could make Sam feel as bad has he felt, so he shouldn’t be expected to give anymore than that†doesn’t work for me. And they may not be what you meant, but feeling guilty about something doesn’t mean you shouldn’t also try to make amends with that person. Who knows, it may help. It shouldn’t just be about how Sam or Dean carry their burden—it should also be about how they can each lighten their brother’s. But those are my issues and interpretations, not yours. Again, you should always write what you feel, but since I’d told someone else why I’d had a hard time with the article somewhere else, I felt like I needed to express that to your face, so to speak.
I’m happy to read that I misinterpreted your ending remarks. To me, show has pretty firmly laid out why those roles are problematic in the way Dean and Sam have functioned within them previously, and by their own classification of those roles in previous seasons. Sam has made it pretty clear he does not like to be looked after as a little brother, pretty much fighting it all the way this season. Dean has not benefited from basing his self-worth on whether he is needed—it feeds into his insecurities about his value to his family beyond what he can do for them. At this point, I think it would be healthier if Dean would learn to accept some care from Sam and Sam would recognize what Dean needs from him, rather than reinforcing what they’ve always done, because there lies dysfunction. Of course Sam is always going to look up to Dean a little, and of course Dean is always going to want to look after Dean. They’re always going to be to some degree dysfunctional. But to me show didn’t do enough in the finale to show that the boys were stepping towards healthy and normal, if they did at all. Dean is still basing his self-worth on being there for Sam, when he needs to find things within himself with which to build his self-esteem. Sam so totally based his self-worth (apparently) on getting big brother’s approval he was ready to commit suicide. Those are extreme beyond any real life example I can pull from. So it makes sense to me to say that the only healthy thing that occurred between them in the finale was Dean being able to convince Sam not to kill himself out of some misguided idea that it would somehow win him Dean’s approval/trust. Now, can they move to a healthier place from there? Maybe—if show doesn’t regress them or retcon things in order to bring more drama next year. We can but hope.
Wow, there are some typos there. Please forgive me, it’s late.
You didn’t come across offensively at all.
[quote]I find giving a pass without that a sign of regret very problematic.[/quote]
I just wanted to address this one thing, because I think the key difference here is that Sam [i]has[/i] displayed regret, apologized, tried to make amends, and paid his penance many times. I really don’t know what more the character could possibly do, in fact, to make up for his mistakes. In my eyes he has redeemed himself time and again.
I DO wish for Sam to have the opportunity to give back a little bit in terms of caring for Dean on the same level Dean has cared for Sam – but that would require a storyline in which Dean needs looked after in that way. I’ve been hoping for this role-reversal for many seasons. I think it would do wonders for both characters. So in that sense, I think we are in agreement on what we’d like to see from these characters going forward.
[quote]Dean is still basing his self-worth on being there for Sam, when he needs to find things within himself with which to build his self-esteem. Sam so totally based his self-worth (apparently) on getting big brother’s approval he was ready to commit suicide. Those are extreme beyond any real life example I can pull from. So it makes sense to me to say that the only healthy thing that occurred between them in the finale was Dean being able to convince Sam not to kill himself out of some misguided idea that it would somehow win him Dean’s approval/trust. Now, can they move to a healthier place from there?[/quote]
See, I think Purgatory changed Dean in that it did give him something other than taking care of Sam to base his self-worth on. Being a hunter. I don’t think selflessly wanting happiness for your family is wrong or self-destructive as it was expressed in S8. Dean knows what he wants for himself and has expressed that. He wants to hunt with Sam by his side. But he also wants his brother to be safe and happy. I don’t see that as “basing his self-worth on being there for Sam.” That maybe was the case in prior seasons, but not in S8, IMO.
As for Sam, I didn’t see the scenes in “Sacrifice” as Sam not killing himself out of the idea that it would win Dean’s trust. I saw it as him finally letting go of the past and forgiving himself. And Dean encouraged him to do that.
So, a little different in our interpretations of things, but that’s cool. Thanks for the discussion!
I’m glad that I managed to avoid offending. It’s a hard thing when people are arguing perspectives sometimes, especially in a fan base as passionate as this one. This is a show people take personally, so I have really concentrate on discussing issues without taking/making things personal. I apparently succeeded, so that’s good news. Thank you for taking the time to engage me.
When I speak in terms of giving a pass without sign of regret, I am not referring to past seasons, where I would definitely agree with you. I am referring to S8 around mid-season, when show seemed to shift gears with the Dean/Sam conflict with an audible thunk. After the break, we saw Dean realizing his wrongs, apologizing, and working to care for Sam—someone even floated the theory to me that he was doing so partly out of guilt for his past behavior. To me, what more Sam could have done was similarly apologize for behavior or even his actions in the Benny fiasco (and yes, I do think allying himself with the hunter who knocked Dean out in order to kill Dean’s friend without actual proof of wrong-doing counts) and show signs that he was working to make amends just as Dean did. I didn’t see that from Sam until the finale, so that really didn’t equalize things for me. We may see that differently, and that’s fine. I want to stress that I don’t and never have needed to see Sam in sackcloth and ashes. I want him to address the small picture as well as the big picture, and think more in terms of making amends with small gestures rather than the big suicidal one. I don’t think that’s too horrible, do you?
We do agree that Sam should be given the opportunity to give back to Dean in terms of caring for him. I really had hoped that this season show would allow Sam to do what he wasn’t allowed in S4—to be able to focus on Dean and his needs after a traumatic time and possibly even save Dean. Well, that didn’t happen, but I still definitely hope for a role reversal. I agree that it would help both of them. So that’s good common ground to find, yes?
I would have agreed that purgatory did change Dean by giving him something more than taking care of Sam. The problem is that purgatory and all of its after-effects basically disappeared in the second half, from my perspective. Once Sam took on the trials, Dean’s focus narrowed almost completely to taking care of Sam and being able to carry him. He was completely ready to ditch the trials and let the demons go free from that point on, so his love of hunting fell by the wayside as Sam became his sole concern. So to me, I do feel like Dean ended up back where he started, and that wasn’t a good thing.
As for Sam, once he said, “So?†it was pretty clear that he was ready to kill himself, and by his own words he had to do it because Dean didn’t trust him. Dean is the one who encouraged him to let go of the past and forgive himself, which was pretty much the only healthy thing that happened in the finale to me. As I said somewhere earlier, Sam completing the trials wouldn’t have helped Sam forgive himself, because he would have been dead. There’s no letting go or attaining forgiveness in that. It’s one of those things that always floored me “If I don’t do this, who are you going to trust next?†Well, you’ll never know, Sam, because you’ll be dead. I can accept his thought process had been scrambled by the trials, but he definitely wasn’t in any good place mentally there, as indicated by his willingness to die.
Different interpretations aren’t bad things in my book. It makes discussion interesting. Thanks for the response!
Yes, Sam was in a bad place physically and emotionally from the trials but IMO I do not think Dean is in the same place as where he started. He has not given up the quest but offers an alternative plan(Plan B) as he is a major strategist. They are now armed with the inventory of the MOL lair. Dean started out seeking revenge for his Mother’s death. This season he tells Krissy it is not always about revenge. His focus has always been to save Sam from going darkside or more recently from dying. He won’t put anything before Sam, even hunting and killing those SOB’s who killed Mary and Jessica. He is totally focused on helping Sam survive AND hunting with a different strategy and resources.
I see what you’re saying, debbab, but to me Dean didn’t so much offer a plan B as he was throwing as many darts as the board as he could, hoping enough would stick to turn away from his path. The trust is they have no plan B. Yes, they have the MoL lair, but there’s no guarantee or even a hint that there’s an alternative way to close the gates of hell there. If there were, it doesn’t make a lot of sense that the MoL sat on it, rather than actually using it to stop the demons themselves. Sam and Dean could spend years searching the tomes only to come up empty, with unknown quantities of people dying from demons in the meantime. That’s not a strategy—that’s a wild hope and a prayer. Now, is it likely show will reward the Winchesters for the choice before the end of the series by having them trip over such a solution? Yes, but that doesn’t mean Sam or Dean had any reason to believe that this would happen during their finale discussion. Your perspective may vary, naturally.
Agreed, Dean’s focus has always been save Sam and keep his family together. But Dean didn’t start out seeking revenge for Mary—he was from the beginning the Winchester focused on saving people, hunting things and keeping his family together. As Dean said in Salvation, if it meant Sam dying he hoped they never caught the YED. That’s why show’s weak attempt at giving Dean a revenge “storyline†in S7 (which really didn’t amount to anything) and his line about shutting the gates didn’t really ring true—Dean was never the Winchester motivated by revenge for the first 6 seasons. In the Kripke era, he was pretty clearly the one hunting to save families, primarily his own, before everything else. Kripke’s stated 5 season arc for Dean was him learning to let Sam go while standing by his decisions, so that he could save the world. To me, here Dean did the exact opposite, but it’s now the right choice because reasons. I don’t see Dean as being focused on hunting with a different strategy or resources, because he’d never done any research to that effect. If show had spent some time in the latter half of the season showing Dean secretly ripping his way through the MoL to try find something while Sam was coughing up blood, I think they could have sold that line much better. As it was, it still feels to me like Dean was more than willing to give up on shutting the gates and letting the demons continue to roam free as long as Sam didn’t die, and he was saying whatever he had to in order to save Sam. That is in and of itself not a terrible thing, but it is exactly where Dean started this series—family comes before everything, and hang the mission if it means losing them. We can, of course, agree to disagree.
Dean does leave most of the research to Sam in the cave but sometimes in the past Dean has been the one sitting at the computer when Sam is out running. Also this year with Charlie, Dean and Sam sitting together we find out that Dean has upped his computer skills and he does research as well. I think the distinction between brains vs brawn as defined by one for each brother has been thankfully weakened as we learn that Dean is a great strategist. Perhaps he is throwing what he has at Sam to save him, but I do not trust his sincerity(nor do I think you do). In the past the Winchesters have gone after something and taken long rides on the slimmest of clues. Often they say”I got nothin'” to each other. So, Dean’s reference to the material in the MOL cave is thrown out there on a”wing and a prayer”( no pun intended) and on the possibility of a new type of arsenal. True, the MOL never rid the world of evil before but they seemed to keep pace until the Hell Gates opened. In the pilot Dean finds Sam because he needs his help to find Dad who is out for revenge and is chasing the YED. Dean has the mission to find Dad but also to gank the YED because it killed Mary- and essentially forced Dean into the life. So IMO revenge has been a well that the writers have dipped into way before season 7. I also think that Dean and Sam are beginning to realize they cannot save everyone which was expressed by Cas and demonstrated so profoundly by Sarah’s death. Dean can continue to save Sam. So I think we agree on more than we might think and yes respectfully, we can agree to disagree on the rest. Cheers!
Correction : I meant to write that I do trust his sincerity and that Dean’s speech is sincere even if it is based on a hope without tangible research.
There may be some misunderstanding here. My point is that that Dean is incapable of doing research—he’s proven many times in the past that he’s just as capable as Sam. While Sam may prefer research and Dean may prefer action, they’ve both proven that they are efficient at all facets of the job. To me this has been true since the beginning of the series, not a recent development (which is why I found Singer’s brain and brawn comments to be eye-roll-worthy pigeon-holing that didn’t fit 3-dimensional Sam or Dean). My point remains that we did see Dean do research (as we have all along) in the last half of the season, but none of that research related to some alternate method of closing the gates. Therefore, there’s no reason for Dean to think that the MoL were sitting on information that is only held on an angel tablet that had to be read by a prophet. Now, granted, I’m sure something will pop up because the plot says so, but there’s not even the slimmest of a clue to base Dean’s assertion on at this point. So to me, Dean was very much throwing that possibility at Sam on a wing and a prayer. It’s that that he was lying or somehow being insincere, but he had no facts backing up his statements, so it really was just throwing out vague possibilities to stop Sam from dying by any means necessary.
Let me diverge for a moment—Was there supposed to be only one MoL that just happened to be stationed in Kansas, or was this supposed to be a broader organization with other branches? If so, were the others wiped out at the same time Abaddon destroyed the Kansas branch, like a coordinated attack? As for the gates being open, if there weren’t gates open before that allowed Abaddon to escape? It seems demons have been around for a long time, considering the MoL were working on ways the cure them, so if they’d had a way to shut them on in Hell, it seems like that would have been their focus instead of curing one demon at a time for efficiency’s sake. Not that any of that’s really relevant to our conversation, but since I wondered about it while typing I thought I’d throw it out there for the people here to see if anyone has more ideas on this than me.
As for Dean, yes, I’d agree that avenging Mary was part of the reason for his hunting because that’s how John raised him to it, but revenge was never his focus. He was cautioning Sam against getting too focused on revenge in 1.2, conceivably because he’d seen what it had done to John. Like I pointed out, he was first to put family before revenge in S1. In S4, he definitely put family before ending Lilith, or else he would have had no objections to Sam’s actions. So I do think there’s a consistent thread in Dean’s characterization where he put family before the mission. S5 was supposed to be where Dean grew and realized that he did need to put the world before his family, so he agreed to Sam’s plan and sacrificed family to stop the apocalypse. So to me, it’s easy to conclude that S8 Dean about-faced from that S5 mindset and returned to his first characterization, which is family comes before the mission. I’m pretty sure that Dean and Sam knew well before this that they couldn’t save everyone, but they took on the responsibility to save as many as they could, even at great personal costs. To me, S8 stepped away from the idea that was previously seen as growth for Sam and Dean in S5, and it will be interesting to see where they go with that.
Point is that Dean is not incapable–don’t you hate it when a typo negates the whole point you were trying to make? 😳
😆
Too wordy. Sorry.
For me, Carver pulling a ninth inning run doesn’t erase the errors and strike-outs that preceded it. By the end of the season, the big, “Oh, Sam was totally torn up the whole season; he just didn’t show it†didn’t satisfy me. I think it was serviceable first effort for Carver, but I’m hoping for improvement in S9. Given the habit of retconning show has developed, I’m not we can praise the sort-of understanding that show has allowed the boys to get at the 11th hour because there’s no guarantee it’s going to stick. We’ll see. I am wary but hopeful.
sid5 and just saying – I feel the same as both of you about these issues. Glad you took the time to post the comments.
Why is it that the source of conflict this Season gets broken down to “Sam being angry at Dean`s hypocrisy”? That once again makes it seem like only Dean is/was at fault and the only thing Sam did wrong was not speak out against it sooner. Otherwise he is completely perfect.
Sam was plenty hypocritical himself. “No hunter worth his salt would let a vampire live”. Is that some hysterical laughter I hear coming from Season 2 here? And pretty much out of pure jealousy against Benny.
Also how was Dean being hypocritical about Kevin? How was he not “letting Kevin walk away from being a prophet”? Unless Dean and Crowley are the same person, that doesn`t track. Because Crowley wasn`t going to let Kevin walk away in peace. Dean just pragmatically pointed that out.
Sam sees a lot of stuff as personal affronts – like Dean “deciding” to trust other people – that IMO aren`t. And that isn`t Dean`s fault.
When Dean says something under the Supernatural influence, he can`t even remember later, Sam waves it off with “oh, please, you meant every word.” At least twice before Sam told Dean under the influence what a pathetic loser he was and totally claimed the “I didn`t really meant it” excuse later. I fail to see how this is not completely hypocritical.
But once again, Dean who had every right to feel hurt and angry after being not only written off from the person who once said “people don`t just disappear, other people just stop looking for them” but got a reaction to his return akin to “oh, well, kinda messes up this great new life I found”, had to learn his place on the sidelines and how he had to revolve completely around family because his life has no meaning or worth otherwise.
That whole Trial and Error episode was pure irony that way. Dean states that he feels like a lowly, dumb grunt. Sam gives him a token speech on how that is not true but this episode and the 11 following it make it very, very clear that if anything, Dean thought too highly of himself.
A good hunter? Nah, he needs to be rescued by Sam. A genius about lore? Nah, he doesn`t even know what a Familiar is. Or a Titan. Or anything really. A grunt? He wishes, grunts are on the frontlines. Dean is just a cook and a nursemaid cheering on Sam who is on the frontlines alone.
And really “I will take you to the light” just means the narrative stating clearly that DEAN was never going to be the one who could handle something as big as the trials. He is just too weak all around so it`s a good thing the superior Sam stepped in, That was the message Season 8 hammered home in my eyes.
Dean`s “character growth” was just accepting his place as the inferior cook on the sidelines. Give me the guy who came out of Purgatory any day, he had a spine and some dignity, also competence and strength. He may have been edgy but he was noone`s housewife.
[quote]Why is it that the source of conflict this Season gets broken down to “Sam being angry at Dean`s hypocrisy”? [/quote]
I don’t believe that’s how I broke it down. This season was all about perception. In the article, I was explaining the brothers’ respective headspaces, the perceptions that drove their emotions and actions. Perceptions can be flawed, as I also pointed out. Sam’s perception/interpretation of Dean was that he was being hypocritical in his treatment of Benny, and that was where the anger came from. Whether Dean was in fact being a hypocrite is up for interpretation. Do I think Dean was being hypocritical – yes. But I don’t see it as negative; rather as a sign of character growth. Dean changed for the better. That change was understandably hard for Sam to accept. They both had very human reactions to the conflicts of the season. I don’t view any as more wrong than another.
[quote]Sam was plenty hypocritical himself. “No hunter worth his salt would let a vampire live”. Is that some hysterical laughter I hear coming from Season 2 here? And pretty much out of pure jealousy against Benny.
[/quote]
I think Sam’s a different person than he was in season 2, as I also went into in the article. Characters grow and change over time. Sam’s not going to react to things in S8 the same way he did in S2. Neither is Dean. And so what if he was jealous of Benny? Dean was jealous of Sam, and said as much. This isn’t a tit for tat deal. They’re brothers. They hurt each other, they love each other. To me, it’s not about keeping score.
[quote]Sam sees a lot of stuff as personal affronts – like Dean “deciding” to trust other people – that IMO aren`t. And that isn`t Dean`s fault.
[/quote]”
Sure. And Dean sees a lot of stuff as personal affronts – like Sam wanting to leave the hunting life – that IMO aren’t. It’s about the character’s perceptions of each other. It’s who they are, flaws and all, and I love them for it.
[quote]And really “I will take you to the light” just means the narrative stating clearly that DEAN was never going to be the one who could handle something as big as the trials. He is just too weak all around so it`s a good thing the superior Sam stepped in, That was the message Season 8 hammered home in my eyes.[/quote]
I’m sorry you interpreted it that way. I think Dean is an incredibly smart, tough, strong character.
[quote]Dean`s “character growth” was just accepting his place as the inferior cook on the sidelines. Give me the guy who came out of Purgatory any day, he had a spine and some dignity, also competence and strength. He may have been edgy but he was noone`s housewife.
[/quote]
I disagree. I don’t see caring for your ill brother as a weakness or as lacking dignity or strength; on the contrary, it solidified how strong and competent and amazing Dean’s character is. Personally, I find the housewife comment a little offensive. Dean’s a well-rounded character, IMO. He can kick ass and cook. He doesn’t view caring for others as weakness, he does it out of love and loyalty and a sense of responsibility. I’m sorry you see that as spineless.
I see it as boring. I watch genre shows for genre plots. Dean coming back from hell? Great. Dean making a sandwich and begging Sam to be allowed to take his temperature? Boring and demeaning.
It was the entirety of what Dean did in the trial storyline. Sam was sick but not too sick to not fight his way through Purgatory on his own, wander through hell and all that. Then he was too sick again. But not too sick to not kill the second djinn. Then keel over dead again. But not too much to not fight off Abbadon and cure Crowley all by himself.
So even in a storyline that rests on the premise of Sam experiencing physical drawbacks, he is never out of the heroic action. While still being at the center of another Chosen One save-the-world-plot.
Meanwhile, Dean`s contribution, albeit in top physical condition, was: getting rescued, being lied to, cooking, worrying, telling others how great Sam is, hearing from others (Charlie) how “if anyone could do it, it will be you, Sam”, and telling Sam how he, Sam, is his number one.
What kickass, heroic actual and important contribution directly did Dean make in the trials? What was he allowed to do? At least Samwise got to join the fight, contribute to the action, be directly heroic.
Dean did a single one thing of importance in the trial eps and that was completely and utterly selfish and unheroic. Making a case against closing the gates. Sorry, one life isn`t worth that in my eyes, If Dean had been the trial-doer, his life wouldn`t be worth it to stop either.
In terms of a LOTR analogy, he didn`t play the role of Samwise (which would be bad enough IMO) but Rosie back in the Shire. He could have been dropped from the second half of Season 8 and the story need not be changed at all. Just like he could have been dropped from the Season 5 Finale completely. That is a sad state for a supposed lead character. ,
Bamboo, I agree with this post in it’s entirety particularly these two comments:
” They’re brothers. They hurt each other, they love each other. To me, it’s not about keeping score”.
” I don’t see caring for your ill brother as a weakness or as lacking dignity or strength; on the contrary, it solidified how strong and competent and amazing Dean’s character is. Personally, I find the housewife comment a little offensive. Dean’s a well-rounded character, IMO. He can kick ass and cook. He doesn’t view caring for others as weakness, he does it out of love and loyalty and a sense of responsibility. I’m sorry you see that as spineless”.
If I live to be a hundred, and I plan to, I will never understand the need for some in the fandom to keep a running tally of all the mistakes and wrongdoings of these brothers, only to drag them out in every in every discussion to illustrate who was right or wrong in every situation, which is subjective anyway. I have never felt the need to place blame on one brother, while praising the other’s virtues. I love them both and while I will defend either brother I avoid the blame game. I will also admit these are two messed up human beings
I think this is where I came in.
Why is a post listing Dean’s faults and mistakes fine and acceptable, but when a fan might ask for balance, it’s met with a condescending sounding, “Oh, why do you want to keep score?”, as if fans who want to see more equality in the analysis of the brothers are somehow wrong for it? I agree these are two messed-up human beings, but it’s only okay to point out one’s issues? If you have an opposing opinion and voice it, you’re playing the blame game? Yes, of course, everything is subjective, but once again it seems that some opinions are certainly more welcome than others. Forgive me, as I’ve had time off and been posting a lot this last week, so maybe I’m experiencing burn-out. But I feel like I’ve had some valuable discussions here, and it pulls me up short to see that it seems that bringing divergent voices to the discussion is dismissed as “Well, there’s no making *them* happy.” I confess to finding that very frustrating.
just saying, you might be burnt out ,as I remember leaving you short complimentary responses at least twice this week which apparently you didn’t see. I wasn’t talking about you specifically or your comment. I was agreeing with some of the statements made in Bamboo’s responses however. Equality in analysis is fine as are all opinions. I just personally don’t enjoy fans who pit one brother against the other, which is what I was referring to. It was triggered by Bamboo’s comment. I was speaking in general terms. If I had a problem with your post I would have addressed you. That was between you and her. My most recent response to one of your comments ( in a long discussion with Kelly) said that I was glad you decided to hang around and I thought you were fair-minded and did try and see all viewpoints. I am sorry you took offense to this one and missed the other ones which were complimentary and addressed directly to you. The comment in quotes wasn’t said or implied by me. Lastly I have enjoyed reading some of the debates that have gone on here lately, you were involved in many if not most of them You must be exhausted. 🙂
More than likely burnt out. I’ve enjoyed the discussions, which is why I pursued them, but now it seems I’ve broken my own rule about not taking perspectives personally. That’s probably a sign. I did see your comments, and I thought I’d responded to at least one, but that this point, I’m finding it hard to remember what I have and have not written. 😕
I’m glad we can find common ground in equality in analysis and welcoming all opinions. I guess my trigger was the “it’s not about keeping scoreâ€, because something very similar was said to me when I was discussing the imbalance I perceived in describing the brothers’ role in their conflict. When it did sound so familiar, I’m afraid it hit a little too close to home, as if it were a dismissive response to my comment that keeping score isn’t the same as representing both sides, or wanting both sides to be treated equally. If it wasn’t meant to be directed towards me, I appreciate it. General comments can be pitfalls in some ways, because it’s easy to read things into them that may not have been intended.
I don’t think that every fan who wants to discuss a brother’s faults (and they both have them, of course) or try to explain their view of the characters in response to another post is automatically pitting one against the other or keeping a tally, but that may not be what you meant, either. It just seems to stifle discussion to dismiss others’ comments as playing the blame game to me, instead of responding directly to their perspectives.
Then again, I just broke my own rules, so I’m probably not one to speak to message board etiquette at the moment. So thank you for your patient response, and I promise to redouble my efforts to keep to the issues and not discuss boards on boards.
Thanks just saying! I don’t think discussing the brothers faults is wrong at all. But it does, sometimes, deteriorate into Sam is selfish and Dean is a d***. Both sides contending that their favorite is the victim of the other brother. Those are the ones that bother me. That is what I meant, fans who always blame the “other” brother. Not discussing or debating about the show or the characters in general. Again, not referring to you. Any civil discussion is good in my opinion.
Agreed! If you’re backing up your points with examples and rationale while keeping personal comments in check (note to self), I think you’re good–no matter which vantage point you’re coming from. Now I think I’m going to take myself to bed and recharge my batteries. 😉
Leah, you KNOW I enjoy debates. (very much enjoyed ours,just saying, hope I didn’t get too repetitive I try not to but then I get tired and….). Kind of adore them really. But when it deteriorates it what a horrible brother one is (no matter which one it is), it bothers me too.
😆 Oh I absolutely do Kelly. When I first started visiting the site, your debates with emmau and others, are what drew me in.
]And really “I will take you to the light” just means the narrative stating clearly that DEAN was never going to be the one who could handle something as big as the trials. He is just too weak all around so it`s a good thing the superior Sam stepped in, That was the message Season 8 hammered home in my eyes.[/quote]
[quote]Dean`s “character growth” was just accepting his place as the inferior cook on the sidelines. Give me the guy who came out of Purgatory any day, he had a spine and some dignity, also competence and strength. He may have been edgy but he was noone`s housewife.
[/quote]
I don’t see caring for your ill brother as a weakness or as lacking dignity or strength. On the contrary, it solidified how strong and competent and amazing Dean’s character is. How crucial he is to the story. How much spine he does have, to put aside what has taken his life down the hunting road, in order to help Sam. Putting aside what you want to do to nurse and feed another is an act of great courage.Personally, I find the housewife comment offensive.All of those caregivers male or female who are stay at home work their hearts out. Sometimes it is a family member and sometimes a volunteer. Dean’s a well-rounded character, IMO. He can kick ass and cook. He knows how to knock down a fever. He knows when his brother should sit one out. He doesn’t view caring for others as weakness, he does it out of love and loyalty and a sense of responsibility. I’m sorry you see that as spineless. He drives home family even if it is a dysfunctional one at times. Siblings do hypocritical things and can be at odds with each other and the writers often give symmetry to those events down the line, not always, Dean very much has his spine.
If you have ever cared for a sick sibling or been cared by for one, it is a sign of amazing strength and deep love, which does not exclude siblings still annoying the hell out of each other even when ill. That Dean can kick ass and be caring shows how many layers he has as a character. If he were just kick ass he would be a comic strip and if he were”the housewife” that would be soapy and let us not insult all of those people who act as caregivers to friends, family and even strangers during times of ill health or impending death. Not sure Sam would know how to nurse an ill person just because Dean has always been the one in the family to fill that role in the absence of parents and yes he even did it for Mary when John and she were spit up for a short while. Not slamming Sam, he is just the younger sibling. I speak from my own experience as one who gave and received care , so if I ranted a bit, I am flawed.
That top quote was not mine. I see Sam guiding Dean toward the light as a declaration that Sam recognizes his mistakes of the past and wants to accept this challenge and make Dean proud.
[quote]I don’t see caring for your ill brother as a weakness or as lacking dignity or strength. On the contrary, it solidified how strong and competent and amazing Dean’s character is. How crucial he is to the story. [/quote]
For me it`s very easy. While I don`t need action all the time, when I watch a show like this and Dean has a scene where he first meets an angel of the lord or is hacking off heads in Purgatory or travels back through time to have an old Western shoot-out or shows great smarts and strategy in killing the Mother of all Monsters, then I`m engaged.
When he spends multiple episodes in a row carrying a tray of food, waving a thermometer around and going “Sammy, Sammy, Sammy, Sammy, Sammy, Sammy”, I think “second-hand embarassment, get that off my screen”.
I didn`t find him crucial to the story at all during the trials. A few minor adjustments and I could easily write Dean out of all the episodes starting from 15 and all that would change would be the episodes being a tad shorter. But the story would remain completely intact. To me that`s the sign of a character not being needed.
And if that is supposed to continue for an unspecified amount of time during Season 9, no kick-ass, no hunter, no nothing just nurse and doing domestic chores whereas Sam and Cas go out and do their big story arcs, I seriously don`t know why they bother. Jensen has a kid now so to me that`s just a waste of his and everyone`s time.
My take on season8 which had its very up and very down moments for the writers. Sam was truly alone and fresh out of a mental ward- truly lost and so he got into the Impala and drove until he hit a dog. This hit seems to have been the catalyst to bring him into what we perceive as the real world and Sam’s fantasy of normal as presented with bright lighting and primary colors-all of which I perceived as odd. It took a while for Sam to accept that his normal is to be a hunter next to Dean. And yes, many of the doubts he shared with us in Freaks and Geeks and other episodes leading up to the “I can do this speech for the hell hounds and the damaged self image in the Escapist and the confession captured in the word :”so?”. Sam is anything but stoic.His selfishness(Dean’s words not mine) seems to have melted into a more mature man.
Dean came back from Purgatory refocused although a bit of ptsd for a while until he found his groove. Although some complain that the character was trivialized this season, I once again believe that Pac Man Fever and other episodes showed his renewed spirit from the tired, self medicating hunter of season 7. Man’s best friend.. made him look like a doofus but most of us agree that was the worst episode. His caring for Sam is how Dean was created but now there is little resentment. Dean does have some heavy solo parts and needs to be able to deliver the humor- it is our delight when we hear these line- but the show needs both brothers. It is not about Sam or Dean but Sam and Dean, Dean’s growth does not exclude him from being basic to his character as he was conceived.
Sam taking Dean “to the light” IMO is not telling us that Dean is not strong enough, it is more of an expose of where Sam’s motivation is coming from and ties in to th.e finale.
So the DNA of Dean and Sam ‘s characters as created by Kripke exist, just with more life experience that changes their reactions but not their basic instincts and outlines as characters. Yes, MOL and the angel arc has given new life-which was much needed- after an uneven season7. Many new doors can be opened if Carver builds the house with solid scripts. No doubt in the actors’ abilities. Just my opinion in a stream of thought rant.
[quote]Sam taking Dean “to the light” IMO is not telling us that Dean is not strong enough, it is more of an expose of where Sam’s motivation is coming from and ties in to th.e finale.[/quote]
Yes – great thoughts Debbab, thanks for reading and sharing!
[quote]So the DNA of Dean and Sam ‘s characters as created by Kripke exist, just with more life experience that changes their reactions but not their basic instincts and outlines as characters. [/quote]
Love this – well said.
[quote]So the DNA of Dean and Sam ‘s characters as created by Kripke exist, just with more life experience that changes their reactions but not their basic instincts and outlines as characters.[/quote]
Just because Dean was only conceptionalized as a sidekick in Sams story doesn`t mean he has to stay that way always and forever.
If they wanted to make a show just about Sam, they could have done so from the start. Never brought Dean in in the first place, killed him off in Season 1, left him dead after Season 3 or lately left him in Purgatory. Replace him with another sidekick and presto.
Which at this point would all be preferable to what the character has been reduced to and is looking to be reduced to for more years to come.
But I don`t buy the excuse that this is how it has to be. The writers make the story. If they WANTED to make Dean an equal lead character and give him a purpose in the show, noone but absolutely noone is stopping them. In fact, it would be the smart thing to do.
Right now after the Season 8 Finale and the first spoilers I read about from the TV Guide interviews, if the writers had to drop one character, just one who is the most non-essential to the story right now? That would be Dean. Without hesitation.
Dean has a pivotal role in the story and IMO is not a marginal side kick.. Other characters swirl around him as spokes on a wheel. He is needed to bring out the other characters flaws and motivations. Yes, the writers could write a few more Deancentric episodes, but for me the story without Dean bringing out others as well as growing as a character who represents a certain morality and purpose of mission( now more than ever but with a different strategy/MOL resources) is not SPN. It would be run of the mill and frankly I would have stopped watching. Instead for me, it is a story about family not just about one flawed hero named Sam. Yes, the TV guide hints that Dean’s storyline for season nine has yet to be developed. So I imagine that Sam will be the center of the wheel for Dean for a while as he recovers. Certainly, Pac Man Fever shows Dean as never letting Sam go. And I thought it was nice to see Dean as a caring brother and not just as a uberhunter. More layers to characters make them interesting and keep them out of the comic strip genre and more drama. Just my point of view.
[quote]Yes, the TV guide hints that Dean’s storyline for season nine has yet to be developed. So I imagine that Sam will be the center of the wheel for Dean for a while as he recovers. Certainly, Pac Man Fever shows Dean as never letting Sam go. And I thought it was nice to see Dean as a caring brother and not just as a uberhunter. More layers to characters make them interesting and keep them out of the comic strip genre and more drama. Just my point of view.[/quote]
Dean`s “storyline” has yet to be developed since the Pilot, that is 8 years now. And Sam has been the center for him for about that long. How about doing something fresh?
I watch shows like this for genre plots so I don`t think it`s unreasonable wanting my fave character to have something interesting for a change. Being supernaturally special, being Chosen and whatnot. If the role of sandwich-maker and fusser on the side is so great and pivotal, give it to Sam.
If I want to watch stories about domestic chores and soap opera worrying about family there are other shows. And I do not see this one as a show about family, unless the family values exposed are horrible.
Dean claiming nothing and noone comes before Sam is a bigger devolution for the character than he started out as in Season 1. At least back then he also cared about saving innocents. And was loyal to friends.
These days he would kill them all to save Sam and let the world at large burn because HIS only world revolves around Sam. By his own admission he has no identity or individuality of his own but serving Sam. And I mean literally serving now.
When Dean acted like he did with John in Season 1, fandom claimed he needed to break out of it. Now he acts basically the same way with Sam and it`s the greatest thing ever. I seriously don`t get that.
Sasha, maybe the problem is you’re expecting something from the show that it is not, since middle of S01. I believe you will be more pleased with genre shows more action driven – like Teen Wolf. Supernatural is more character driven, with action on the side.
[quote]Sasha, maybe the problem is you’re expecting something from the show that it is not, since middle of S01. I believe you will be more pleased with genre shows more action driven – like Teen Wolf. Supernatural is more character driven, with action on the side.[/quote]
I enjoy Teen Wolf but acknowledge it is a somewhat goofy show. However, they still manage to tell stories about multiple characters at once.
Supernatural still tells mytharc stories, about Sam, Cas, side characters. It`s just Dean that is not included. So at best he is on a different show than everyone else because THEY are still in an action how and not a soap.
And even in soaps, characters get plotlines, real plots, not just feelings.
Dean being caring is a character trait, his being a big brother is a state of being. Neither one of those are plotlines. And even the servants in period drama do more than what he got to do at the end of Season 8.
Hi, Sasha.
I guess what we disagree upon is the definition of ‘doing’ things. I have a feeling (please, correct me if I’m wrong) that your ‘do’ things is action oriented, as in kill, beat, shoot and physically defeat the bad guy, or BE the bad guy.
Dean didn’t do those things, I agree: he didn’t kill the hellhound, he didn’t went to hell and rescued Bobby and he wasn’t the one curing Crowley. But, IMO, he did a LOT: he served as a general (which directly contradicts his statement that he is just a ‘grunt’): he set the goal (closing the Gates of Hell), the strategic moves (like using Abbadon as experiment demon – although it didn’t go well – or capturing Crowley for the same reason), kept everyone on mission when they strayed from that or started to doubt it (he did it with Kevin and with Sam), corrected the course when things went south (like when Sam got stuck in Purgatory or when Sam almost died with the fever).
He was also the one responsible for breaking Naomi’s grasp over Cas. And his strategy made them recover the angel tablet from Crowley (that Cas lost) and keep the demon tablet for themselves.
And yes, he was the one that made the final decision that it was not worth it to neither of them to be a martyr yet AGAIN in order to save the world (I say both of them because Sam is the one to end up dead but Dean was the one that had to live with his brother dead. AGAIN). Because, man, there must be ANOTHER way – I say enough is enough. And that, for me, is growth.
So, I saw Dean as the general, the leader that bonded everybody together, set the tasks and the goal and made the final decision when Sam was unable to. Not ‘just’ the cook or the caring brother which, in my PVO, is also extremely important and valid, not at all demeaning.
If this is not an important role, I don’t know what it is. Sometimes it is not about the one that kills the monster (the final act), but everybody that contributed for this moment to be possible.
With all due respect Dean’s storyline has been developed over the last 8yrs. The simple fact is wether it is liked or not Dean will always be about Sam in many ways because that is in his very nature. It isnt a role he was forced into and that Sam made him do it is one he chose .
Now I do not subscribe to the Dean has had nothing line nor the season 8 view either as the first half of the season was Dean centric . Sam had the trials because he was the one they thought needed them that he had to stand there in the finale and proclaim how wrong he was and the crushing weight of not being the brother Dean wanted.
If they gave Dean the trials would we of had the same outcome the same scene? that the writers would of had Dean standing there telling us all how a screw up he was for trusting Benny and Castiel over Sam and would Dean fans of accepted that. Sam got the trials because it was about the demon tablet and Sam is associated with Demons and next season will be the Angel tablet and which brother is associated with heaven .
We all have issues with how the storyline goes I did not need Sam not looking for Dean , getting no insight into him and get one syllable words to describe his state of mind and that once again wanting normal is about hurting Dean trope that has been going around since year dot .
This season was as the saying goes a game of two halves and now we start all over again next season.
[quote]With all due respect Dean’s storyline has been developed over the last 8yrs. The simple fact is wether it is liked or not Dean will always be about Sam in many ways because that is in his very nature. It isnt a role he was forced into and that Sam made him do it is one he chose .[/quote]
Noone in their right mind would completely subjugate themselves to do nothing but revolve around another person. Not by free choice.
Dean is too screwed up and now too pathetic to do anything else but it`s still horrible for the character. Best thing for him would be either killed off or have his memories permanently erased and start fresh as a blank state.
Also, the character doesn`t have to remain this way. He is only all about Sam because the writers want to keep the story and therefore the show all about Sam.
There are plenty of shows, almost all of them, that juggle storylines for more than one character at the same time. As for the angel trials going to Dean, good one. I bet Sam is going to be a new version of angel or at least getting superpowers and therefore he will get Dean`s previous angel connection. The meagre storylines Dean had, they recreated with Sam in a “bigger and better way”. But it doesn`t work in the reverse, Dean won`t get something as interesting as being soulless, getting superpowers and handling Chosen One trials. Ever.
If they created a story for Dean, he could have character growth and mature into being an individual. They don`t need to be “Adam and his Golem” just because.
Well said. The writers needed to bring all of Sam’s failings forward as well as his association with demons on a quite personal level. He usually does the exorcisms( just because Jared says he does better with the Latin) but in the past he was juiced.. Dean has messed up as well. There is plenty of mess to go around. That’s what family does. The formula works or we would not be at season 9 and voted in the top 60 best Sci Fi series on TV by TV Guide. Of course, their ranking is not high enough IMO. Thanks again Sharon.
You can see what ever way you want I am well aware of the EDG view of the brothers relationship if you can show me where someone is holding a gun to Dean’s head and forcing him to be Sam’s older brother then by all means do so.
Dean has more than just Sam all I said was that it will always be in Dean’s nature to look out for Sam you cannot change that it doesnt mean that I remotely in any way entertain your idea that Dean has be subjugated . You can blame Sam and dislike the brothers relationship all you want but Dean is a compos mentis adult not a subjugated human being that needs saving from his life.
In fact, Sam and Dean have split up on occasion. Dean has echoed his Dad when he tells Sam”if you walk out that door, don’t come back.” Sam walks away from hunting and Dean after the Apocalypse gets going. As a child, Dean may not have had a choice and he followed John without question. It is Sam who defied John. Dean seeks Sam’s help in the pilot and Sam only gets back into it to help Dean and later to avenge Jessica’s death. In season 8, Sam clearly chooses to go back to hunting with errant thoughts about balancing the job with hunting. And if the Gates were closed, he could stop hunting as could Dean. Dean does learn to question his Dad’s orders through Castiel’s rebellion. Nobody is putting a gun to either guy to hunt. And Dean realized that he is better off sitting next to Sam than going it alone and Sam has seen Dean as the one who kept him human at certain points. Nobody is subjugated. They are driven and codependent but are those traits so bad?
[quote] And Dean realized that he is better off sitting next to Sam than going it alone [/quote]
Just because Dean thinks that doesn`t mean I have to agree with him. In fact, I think he would be better off alone.
And to be clear, I don`t believe Dean is good for Sam either. He fosters the worst traits in him just as Sam does with Dean IMO. They bring out the things in each other I dislike most about either character.
The final scene in the Season 8 Finale was just a perfect example of that. Sam`s speech? Argh, encompasses why that character is so problematic for me. And Dean`s answer? Pathetic, table for one.
So yes, I do believe those traits as I see them are immensely bad. I need to be able to respect story protagonists, not necessarily like – I can respect someone for being strong and a badass even if they are cold and cutthroat – but respect. I find that close to impossible here. .
[quote][quote] And Dean realized that he is better off sitting next to Sam than going it alone [/quote]
I can respect someone for being strong and a badass even if they are cold and cutthroat – but respect. [/quote]
See, I am not able to respect someone like this. On the other hand, I respect a lot a strong, kick ass AND also a caring and human character. Therefore, unlike you, I prefer “Swan Song” Dean and “Sacrifice” Dean than “The End” Dean – who although being cold and kick ass as can be was not able to stop the Apocalypse or kill Lucifer (a very hot Dean, though 😉 ).
[quote]See, I am not able to respect someone like this. On the other hand, I respect a lot a strong, kick ass AND also a caring and human character. Therefore, unlike you, I prefer “Swan Song” Dean and “Sacrifice” Dean than “The End” Dean – who although being cold and kick ass as can be was not able to stop the Apocalypse or kill Lucifer (a very hot Dean, though 😉 ).[/quote]
Neither did Swan Song-Dean, he just knelt on the ground and gaped in awe as Sam did it all by himself. Sacrifice-Dean did nothing but run to Sam, wring his hands, convinced Sam to do the totally unheroic, non-world-saving thing and promised Sam he, Dean, would always be a totally clingy, co-dependent mess and not hesitate to kill friends and innocents alike for the greater good of Sam.What a hero.
The End-Dean might have been ruthless but at least when Lucifer-as-Sam placed his boot in his neck, I assume he didn`t position himself there of his own free will.
[quote][quote]See, I am not able to respect someone like this. On the other hand, I respect a lot a strong, kick ass AND also a caring and human character. Therefore, unlike you, I prefer “Swan Song” Dean and “Sacrifice” Dean than “The End” Dean – who although being cold and kick ass as can be was not able to stop the Apocalypse or kill Lucifer (a very hot Dean, though 😉 ).[/quote]
Neither did Swan Song-Dean, he just knelt on the ground and gaped in awe as Sam did it all by himself. Sacrifice-Dean did nothing but run to Sam, wring his hands, convinced Sam to do the totally unheroic, non-world-saving thing and promised Sam he, Dean, would always be a totally clingy, co-dependent mess and not hesitate to kill friends and innocents alike for the greater good of Sam.What a hero.
The End-Dean might have been ruthless but at least when Lucifer-as-Sam placed his boot in his neck, I assume he didn`t position himself there of his own free will.[/quote]
And Sam was pinned to a tree when Dean took Azazel out and Sam was pinned to a wall while the hell hounds killed his brother .
I will not get into SS I have my own view on that one and Dean’s role in it.
No, Dean didn’t jump into the pit, but, IMO, Sam wouldn’t have had the strengh to do it if Dean wasn’t there. For me, this is the message of “The End”: Sam tried to overcome Lucifer the same way as in Swan Song but was unable to because he didn’t have his brother at his side – and the bond and the love they shared. And Dean wasn’t able to stop the Apocalypse by using brutal force alone, no matter how much a bad ass warrior he was.
I think the point was exactly that: they wouldn’t be able to stop Lucifer by separate efforts. But, of course, that is the way I see it. I know it a controversial episode.
As by what did what, I answered above my view of team work – it’s not about who, in the end, took the final blow against evil, but every decision and effort that lead to that point, as much important (or more important so) than the final act.
The point of Swan Song is that human relationships (and, as a result, humans) are stronger than anything a supernatural creature can throw at them.
Brute force was never going to work.
It would have been a poor ending to have Bobby dead, Castiel dead, Sam suffering for eternity in hell and Dean, having thrown Sam into the pit, standing alone looking noble and (metaphorically) holding a sword in his hand with his hair blowing in the wind (that’s actually a different type of story).
To have both Sam and Dean being in hell possessed by and tortured by angels would have been the most downer ending in tv history, though technically that would have been a victory for Team Free Will.
And to have Lucifer and Michael fight out the final battle in their respective meatsuits would have meant that in every possible way the Winchesters would have lost.
Swan Song did exactly the right thing (I think) and Eric Kripke was right to be proud of it.
Oh and to get back to the topic of Season 8 before I get in any trouble 🙂 Sam didn’t do the trials by himself. He couldn’t do them alone. Dean wouldn’t have been able to either. In fact it would be interesting to know what god intended since it was so hard for just one person to do the trials.
Perfect, eilf! I would have hated those alternative endings. Still, I´m greatful for S06 and now a chance for a better ending for both boys. I can dream!
That is a very good question – I will put on Alice’s thread: I would love to know a little of what the hell was God thinking, about everything: the Apocalypse, the angels, the angels, the monsters, the tablets, the trials and, especialy, the freaking Winchesters! Were them his plan from the beginning or not?
*whisper* I adore Season 6, not least because I just KNOW otherwise we wouldn’t have got that last scene of Sam under the lamppost … or the epicness that is Soulless Sam 😀 … or Dean as a vampire … or Castiel as God …
And Purgatory Dean, and the MoL, and raw emotional Sam.. The more the merrier! Away with the ending!
And Aaron and the Golem … and Abbadon … and Crowley at his most dastardly, and Jared and Jensen playing Sam and Dean playing Jared and Jensen playing Sam and Dean …
And hugs.
Yes! And oh, hugs! I can never have enough!
I’m ready for S09 now! And S10 and 11…
[quote]You can see what ever way you want I am well aware of the EDG view of the brothers relationship if you can show me where someone is holding a gun to Dean’s head and forcing him to be Sam’s older brother then by all means do so. .[/quote]
Ah, of course the “EDG” trope because I dare not care for that relationship and the non-role my fave gets in the show.
Also, I said Dean is too screwed up in the head to do any better at this point, not that someone is physically forcing him. I still don`t consider that a free choice.
If Sam were my fave, I`d probably be happy about Dean serving him. I`d consider that a great honor for a side character to even occupy the same space as the one I really cared for. But it just doesn`t work out that way for me.
[quote][quote]You can see what ever way you want I am well aware of the EDG view of the brothers relationship if you can show me where someone is holding a gun to Dean’s head and forcing him to be Sam’s older brother then by all means do so. .[/quote]
Ah, of course the “EDG” trope because I dare not care for that relationship and the non-role my fave gets in the show.
Also, I said Dean is too screwed up in the head to do any better at this point, not that someone is physically forcing him. I still don`t consider that a free choice.
If Sam were my fave, I`d probably be happy about Dean serving him. I`d consider that a great honor for a side character to even occupy the same space as the one I really cared for. But it just doesn`t work out that way for me.[/quote]
Of course it is a free choice because what you are doing is ignoring the Dean factor in this he knows exactly what he is doing . It still comes down to [b]Sasha[/b] that if he is not being forced he is doing it of free choice and frankly this point is going around in circles .
As for your other comment that is down to you. I know what would make me happy as a Sam fan .
I cannot agree with your view on Dean as I simply do not see him has some downtrodden serf who is a sidekick .
[quote]Of course it is a free choice because what you are doing is ignoring the Dean factor in this he isnt screwed up in the head he knows exactly what he is doing. It still comes down to Sasha that if he is not being forced he is doing it of free choice and frankly this point is going around in circles .[/quote]
Just because for you he isn`t screwed up doesn`t make it undeniable truth. It`s an opinion. Just as it`s my opinion that it would be impossible for an emotionally healthy person to choose this.
So Dean`s issues inform all his actions and decisions. Including the “decision” to revolve around Sam. I freely admit that I loathe that about him. When he sold his soul, I thought hell was a just reward for being that insanely stupid. And now he is not only back in this mindset but worse than even that guy who once sold his soul. Who I thought couldn`t sink any lower.
Meanwhile Sam will never be brought so low as to revolve around Dean to that level. Which would actually be a good thing if Dean could join him in that headspace permanently.
Then it could be a true choice for either one.
I think Sam has been brought low enough frankly. I am not going to stop you from seeing it your way and neither brother is emotionally healthy are they. But my issue is the way you are trying to say Dean is not doing it out of his own choice that he is so messed up that it is the sole thing controlling his actions. And I simply do not agree .
Now we can argue this all night but will still be poles apart on this one .
If you loathe that part of him then I cant help you because I do not think it will be going away anytime soon.
[quote] If you loathe that part of him then I cant help you because I do not think it will be going away anytime soon.[/quote]
I realize that. It would help though if there were other sides to him still. But this part is now the whole of him. He has no other “parts” anymore.
What else does the character have to him at this point? What else that is unrelated to Sam? Because Sam has plenty of things that are unrelated to Dean, the mytharc connection gives him that for one. He has always been more than “Dean`s brother”.
I don`t think you can say the same about Dean anymore. He is a guy who is Sam`s brother. And that is where it stops. And that is what rankles. Nearly all of his scenes in the trial episodes were unwatchable for me because Dean ultimately had nothing to him but being Sam`s brother. He wasn`t a hunter, he didn`t kick ass, he didn`t really do anything that was even semi-interesting to watch. I credit Jensen for not fading right into the wall.
[quote]
If Sam were my fave, I`d probably be happy about Dean serving him. I`d consider that a great honor for a side character to even occupy the same space as the one I really cared for. But it just doesn`t work out that way for me.[/quote]
Good thing you aren’t in that category so. I believe that point of view would put you in a minority of one.
[quote]Good thing you aren’t in that category so. I believe that point of view would put you in a minority of one.[/quote]
Considering that Dean often only seems to be liked when he is all about Sam – and not cared for when he doesn`t – I`d say that group would be quite a bit larger.
This is actually the only show I`ve ever seen where people argue for a character NOT to have a story of their own or a direct tie to the larger mytharc. Usually that`s considered that death knell for a character and never a good thing.
I really feel that that is YOUR opinion and you haven’t provided any evidence to back it up. Maybe you should consider if it is you who feels that way about characters who are not Dean?
[quote]I really feel that that is YOUR opinion and you haven’t provided any evidence to back it up. Maybe you should consider if it is you who feels that way about characters who are not Dean?[/quote]
I do still like Cas and am technically interested in his story, unrelated to Dean or Sam. Of course it rankles that he does get a big mytharc when for the life of him Dean can`t get one.
Just as it rankles that Kevin gets a big important role, even Crowley gets one. All better stuff than we have for Dean right now.
However, that doesn`t mean I would want them all to revolve around Dean instead. What I want is for Dean to be brought up to THEIR level of importance.
[quote]Considering that Dean often only seems to be liked when he is all about Sam – and not cared for when he doesn`t – I`d say that group would be quite a bit larger.
This is actually the only show I`ve ever seen where people argue for a character NOT to have a story of their own or a direct tie to the larger mytharc[/quote]
Those are awfully generalized statements, Sasha.
I respect your different opinion about the show and the brothers roles, but you seem to be demonstrating a large amount of disdain for other fans’ point of views, and are doing a pretty good job at mischaracterizing them. Making generalized accusations that those fans who are happy seeing Dean care for an ill Sam do so just because Sam is their favorite is unfair and rude, IMO. Just because a fan likes Sam does not mean they automatically consider Dean a sidekick. Most fans I’ve encountered appreciate what both brothers bring to the show, and even those who have a favorite still want the other brother to have a good storyline. I have never seen anyone argue for Dean or Sam to not have his own story or have a some tie to the larger mytharc. It’s a small minority who would truly argue that one or the other is a sidekick.
I understand that passion for the show results in passionate statements and opinions. But making generalized statements and pot-shot comments about other fans’ perceived feelings for a character can come across as very insulting, and often serves only to stir up strife. Perhaps we could try to be more positive and constructive?
[quote][quote]Perhaps we could try to be more positive and constructive?[/quote]
I guess I`m just tired out on everything so sorry if I came across too strongly.
Thing is I was – foolishly – happy and excited at the start of Season 8 with the prospects of an exciting Dean-storyline. Then that got dropped quickly and everything changed back around to basically my most hated episode of the entire show: the Season 5 Finale. Only this time it got drawn out over multiple episodes.
So i guess I have to accept that this is what it`s gonna be now. Dean will never get a storyline. He can`t even get a mention in promo material when one-episode side character warrant one.
It hurts to see the character brought so low and yes, I admit (and I realize how silly and overinvested that is) it hurts to see what I see as basically the death of the character, worse than death even, celebrated and embraced. But it`s not like I can change it.
I don`t think any of the writers like the character, in fact quite the opposite. And recently I also don`t think any of the producers care for Jensen all that much. At least under Kripke I never got the impression but I do so now. So if that is true and neither the actor nor the character has any support whatsoever on the show or even off, then it seems like a very pointless battle to fight.
[quote]I guess I`m just tired out on everything so sorry if I came across too strongly.
[/quote]
It happens to a lot of us – conversations can devolve so quickly into nastiness when emotions get hot. It’s understandable, but unpleasant for most. Apology accepted.
I don’t think we have nearly enough information on S9 yet to be making assumptions yet about the storylines or the intentions of the producers/writers. And even when major spoilers do come pouring out, the show is really good at the tease. We can never know what we’re going to get until the season starts airing. The best we can do is wait and hope for the best. After 8 seasons, I assume there must be something positive keeping you around still, despite your frustrations.
Regarding the treatment of the actor/character – I can’t know for sure of course, but I highly doubt Jensen Ackles would still be there if he felt he or his character had so little support/investment. [i]Many[/i] actors leave shows when they are unhappy with a character or feel unsupported. But Jensen has indicated the opposite on many occasions, in word and deed. After seven years, he contracted for another two. And he still expresses happiness and fulfillment with his work, his character, and the people he works with/for. I think that’s something to take into account.
I’m sorry S8 let you down. I hope you can find something to enjoy in future seasons.
[quote] After 8 seasons, I assume there must be something positive keeping you around still, despite your frustrations.[/quote]
Honestly, in the show, no, nothing at this point. I can`t quite quit Jensen but apart from liking the Purgatory stuff early this year, I haven`t had positive experiences with the show since very early Season 5.
In terms of Jensen`s sense of satisfaction. He will naturally have a different viewpoint on it. It`s his work, he can and may get other benefits from it. I only have what comes onscreen.
It is simply my wish to see him in a real lead role at some point. Dean is not going to be it, I have to accept that but that makes waiting around for a possible future in which it may or may not happen in a different project all the harder.
I`d like to watch him, preferably weekly, I just don`t know if it`s worth to settle for watching this anymore. As harsh as it may sound.
Sasha, can I just say that “Sam” fans are thinking many of the same things about Sam and Jared. Maybe it is just me, but both sides can’t be right about those strongly held beliefs. Is it possible that both sides have a different viewpoint due to their perspective and yet arrive at some of the same conclusions. Is it also possible the the answers lie somewhere in the middle? I am NOT trying to be argumentative here, I am genuinely curious. The PTB cannot dislike both characters and both actors. Why would they dislike either of them? They are the show, period.
[quote]Sasha, can I just say that “Sam” fans are thinking many of the same things about Sam and Jared. Maybe it is just me, but both sides can’t be right about those strongly held beliefs. Is it possible that both sides have a different viewpoint due to their perspective and yet arrive at some of the same conclusions. Is it also possible the the answers lie somewhere in the middle? I am NOT trying to be argumentative here, I am genuinely curious. The PTB cannot dislike both characters and both actors. Why would they dislike either of them? They are the show, period.[/quote]
Oh, I`ve encountered enough tales about stuff happening behind the scenes on various TV shows that nothing surprises me anymore. There have indeed been shows in the past where everyone hated everyone else.
As for why they would do so here, I have no idea. I just perceive it to happen. And this latest TV Guide interviews was like a slap to the face. They could mention even the Golem but not Dean. Even to a question on what Sam AND DEAN will be doing, the head producers/writers only refer to Sam.
On another show, I might be convinced that saying nothing means it is too spoilery and they try to be secretive but after 8 years of this show saying nothing about Dean has always and unfailingly translated to just that: nothing for Dean.
It was the same way in Season 8. Once Purgatory was over, Dean was just about dead in interviews and promo material. Carver once gave a dismissive “we`re not sidelining anybody” and then never once mentioned Dean`s name again. Just before IMO sidelining Dean more than ever before in the show`s history.
He had no story in Season 2 or 6 or 7 either. And while the writing for him in Seasons 6 and 7 was very weak, he was still ten times better than in the second half of Season 8. It was uncanny actually, I have never seen a character so effectively killed off while still technically remaining onscreen.
Thank you!!
That TV GUIDE spoilers had nothing new for anybody. (EDITED BY ALICE – No spoilers in the non-spoiler threads).
…but as I recall last year the spoilers from Comic con were Dean and Purgatory and all on Sam was having a romance and not looking for Dean so see it however anyone wishes.
[quote]That TV GUIDE spoilers had nothing new for anybody. (EDITED BY ALICE – No spoilers in non-spoiler threads.)
…but as I recall last year the spoilers from Comic con were Dean and Purgatory and all on Sam was having a romance and not looking for Dean so see it however anyone wishes.[/quote]
(EDITED BY ALICE – No spoilers in non-spoiler threads.)
I would gladly give up screentime and everything if Dean got to be as important as Kevin at this point. If he was only in 5 episodes but had a real mytharc there? Great.
And if he got the big Sam-mytharc-writing with everything that it entails, I would be golden.
Yes and then what? what did we have .Dean last year was mentioned prior to and afterwards and in TVguide so I am still not getting the point.
That because we had a brief cliff note comments that Dean is in nomansland and being ignored because I do not go along with that sorry.Everything you have said a Sam fan can make the same case , we have had interviews and articles that have barely mentioned Sam if at all.
I understand that Sam being given the mytharc from the start went against what some Dean fans wanted and that they have wanted Dean to have that story but just because he hasnt had that doesnt mean he has had nothing. I may have had issues with how Sam has been written but would never sit there and say he has had nothing.
I honestly do not know if they will mix it up give Dean the mytharc and Sam the pov and connections and emotional sl but in truth if they did that and gave Dean that sl as a Sam fan I would then have to ask the question would they give Sam the other aspects and if season 4 is to go by no.
I do not know what is going to happen in season 9 (Edited by Alice – no spoilers in a non-spoiler thread) I do not have any idea if they do give Dean the mytharc then I would not begrudge him that but if they did I cant honestly say Sam would get the emotional/pov sl.
[quote]I honestly do not know if they will mix it up give Dean the mytharc and Sam the pov and connections and emotional sl but in truth if they did that and gave Dean that sl as a Sam fan I would then have to ask the question would they give Sam the other aspects and if season 4 is to go by no.[/quote]
I don`t care for the emo and the “POV” and all that. On this show it just means telling the stories of other, more important people. I don`t really care how Dean feels about the bigger and better stories of other people, how he talks with guest stars about those bigger and better storylines.
All that says to me is that Dean on his own is not considered interesting enough to tell a story for himself, where he is at the center of the supernatural mystery.
In the final three episodes, it felt like Dean did nothing, absolutely nothing but stand around, make food and fuss impotently. And it was boring to watch. He didn`t get to kick ass once. Or drive the plot. Or anything.
In the Season 8 Finale, what did he do? When it was time for Sam doing the third trial solo, he hung around Cas for a bit, still doing nothing, until Cas went off and concluded his own mytharc solo.
It was like videobombing him into the episode to fulfill contractual obligations.
And Season 9 sounds like that is going to be all the character will be doing for the next 23 episodes. Sam has a way better set-up than this, as does Cas, Kevin or Crowley.
Well people want the Dean and Cas dynamics .You got it. I think Dean did more than you are giving him credit for but again it has happened with Sam so I dont know what you want me to say.
You can not like what Dean gets that is your right . He doesnt always have to kick ass , he did plenty of that first half of the season and in the second half . But that is my personal view.
I could take what Sam got and say that yet again in the finale Sam’s mistakes were held up once more and the big pointy finger of how he lets Dean down despite going all what he went through in that cage. I could say all Sam got in the early part of the season is a bad romance , a hurt resentful Dean and Benny.
See someone having the pov not only in their own sl but Sam’s gives them a position that puts them at the centre of everything. Sam having the mytharc and very little insight lands him in the perverbal everytime and a fandom struggling to understand. him.
It is all in the end about perceptions , pov and personal wants for the character we love. And how you see it someone invariably will see it differently. I do not believe they get everything right with Dean but neither do I believe he has been neglected or put in the background as much as some try to claim.
Obviously the mytharc seems to of become some holy grail for some and like I said I wouldnt begrudge Dean that after all having the mytharc has not done alot for Sam but that I do think he would also get the aspects of the story he already has.
To be honest I agree with a couple of points you have made but others I cant go along with so all I can say is it has been a interesting discussion and we are obviously from different ends of the situation .
Just my 2 cents about Dean saving Sam solely because they’re brothers and throwing out his hunter nature –
As has been mentioned before, Dean is a great strategist and he has the amazing ability to think very quickly on his feet and not panic in times of crisis. I believe he was doing so when confronted with Sam’s willingness to die in Sacrifice. Let’s take Sam out of the equation as a brother and just look at him as a hunter – he’s the second best hunter, after Dean; he’s an incredible researcher and actually seems to enjoy it; he’s intelligent and capable of making very astute connections and observations while hunting; his humanity and compassion cause him to seek different solutions other than killing possible innocent beings trapped in supernatural situations, he’s a Legacy and a MoL; he knows Latin; he is a stubborn s.o.b and will not let illness or even impending death keep him from completing a job and most importantly he works really well with Dean – as even soulless Sam acknowledged.
So given all those considerations why would Dean or any other hunter in their right mind let such an asset to the hunter community die?! It’s a given that Bobby’s death was a huge loss as was John Winchester’s. The hunter community is small and getting smaller so letting go of someone with Sam’s skill set makes no sense even in balance with shutting down Hell. There are other evil beings out there to battle and innocents to save. Hunters of Sam and Dean’s knowledge and experience are precious, even priceless, in that environment.
I believe that Dean was thinking as a hunter, not just as a big brother, at the end of Sacrifice. And, you’re not going to change my mind 😀
With respect, if that were true, why was Dean okay with sacrificing such a great hunter in S5? The parallels between the two situations are pretty strong–Sam is a brilliant hunter who conceivably is the only one able to end a great threat to humanity. Dean’s knowledge and/or alliances with other hunters were certainly not much stronger in S5 than they were in S8. Even now, Dean and Sam don’t interact with the hunting community at large by choice, and I’m not sure we’ve ever seen them concerned about the numbers or state of that community. In S5, Bobby was a wealth of great resources, just as the MoL is now, so the big sacrifice could have just as easily been put off in search of a solution there as it was in S8–that was even the rationale presented to Dean in 5.18 to deter him from saying yes.
So Dean was eventually convinced that he had to let Sam go, because saving the world was more important than one hunter/brother in S5. He did put his hunter nature first. Here, Dean did put his hunter nature aside, because as a hunter putting away all of the demons would surely save many lives, just as putting away Lucifer would, in order to save Sam. So, no, to me this was not a show of Dean the great strategist–this was pretty much solely Dean the great big brother, without the character development Kripke touted as his 5 season character arc.
We can, of course, agree to disagree. 🙂
I think we’re probably going to agree to disagree, just saying.
Just a few points though – Sam was Lucifer’s true vessel, no one else. No one else could take on that role even if they wanted to and, remember, Bobby was the one who told Dean to think about saving humanity vs. saving Sam. Lucifer’s win would end humanity but closing or not closing Hell would not. Other hunters can cure demons or even close Hell if they’re willing to take on the Trials and end their life. It doesn’t have to be Sam.
As for the hunting community, Kripke hated Ellen’s roadhouse. He was thrilled when it was destroyed. He saw hunters as mostly loners like John or sometimes working in pairs like Bobby and Rufus. Yes, Bobby was their nerve center as Garth is now. Hunters have their lines of communication. They are aware of each other and may reach out to each other, but usually in times of crisis such as one is incapacitated and can’t finish a job or one is missing or the community is in danger as when the Witnesses rose. Remember Dean reached out when Kevin was missing. However, I don’t think Kripke saw them as a group who got together by choice or that they looked forward to spending time together.
Thanks for your reply, just saying, and for being kind to a newbie 🙂
Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, BookLady. Different ideas make discussion interesting.
Sam was Lucifer’s true vessel, no doubt. For Sam’s plan to work, he was the one who had to take the plunge, so to speak. By the same token, Sam was the only one who had completed the trials and was therefore the only one who could slam the gates and prevent any more people from being hurt/killed by demons. However, in the latter, Sam’s life was placed above saving those people, and in the former, saving people from Lucifer was placed above Sam’s life. Also, Lucifer didn’t seem all that quick to end humanity–even in the 5.4 flashforward he hadn’t done it, despite having his chosen vessel for a while. To me, it’s logical to think that Team Free Will had time to think about solutions that didn’t end with Sam going to hell before all of humanity was exterminated, just as Dean asserted the idea that they had time to think about alternate solutions before demonkind ran amok in the finale.
So why was Sam’s plan the only plan in S5? To me, the only reason we have to believe that Sam’s plan to stop Lucifer was the only one that could work is because it was the end of the season and it fit the ending show wanted to produce. Why couldn’t Sam, Dean, Bobby, and company say, just as was said this season, that there was a way to stop the big bad without sacrificing the second best hunter in the world? To me, the answer is, because the plot said so. Sam himself specifically said that there was about a billion to one chance his plan would even work–why would they be willing to risk the world on such horrible odds? The plan, for that reason, was especially foolhardy, but it was embraced without reservation by everyone but Dean because the plot said so. Only Dean even considered saving Sam to be a worthy reason to say no–everyone else was pretty much on board with Sam’s throwing himself into hell immediately. To me, it’s therefore logical to conclude that losing one to save untold number of lives was an acceptable trade-off in a hunter’s book. Only to Dean, his brother, was it not.
Therefore, to me, the same applies here in S8. No other hunter knows about the trials or has access to Kevin’s translations–therefore, only a Winchester can complete the trials and stop the demons, saving numerous lives. By refusing, Dean was putting the hunter aside for his brother. Not that I’m completely displeased with the results of the finale–I much prefer it to another Winchester death/resurrection, really. I just find it inconsistent in terms of show’s message from three years ago, and I wonder if show even realizes it.
As for other hunters, that’s exactly my point, and I think your view of how Kripke viewed hunters is spot on. To me, that view hasn’t changed since the end of Kripke’s tenure either. Hunters are generally loners. There may be a common contacts for some, like with the Roadhouse or Bobby, or small bands of alliancebut the majority seem to like working alone. They don’t have a member list or noticeably value each other unless specifically requesting aid from another hunter on a case. Dean and Sam have never fretted about dwindling hunter numbers, nor have they ever considered gathering or coordinating hunters, even when they probably should have (to me, S7 was a perfect time to let all the hunters in on the Leviathans and seen the boys take more of a leadership role to consolidate the hunting community against them, but they didn’t). When they find a new monster or a new way to fight one, they don’t put the word out for others to pool knowledge. So I find it very hard to believe that Dean was, in the finale, looking at Sam and thinking, “Oh, what a blow that would be to the hunting community,” as there really isn’t one. He was thinking, “I can’t lose my brother.”
So we can agree to disagree, but I’m glad you shared your ideas. I never thought about it that way before, and it does make me think about how it would be interesting if show would go that direction. With Garth as the communications hub, the Winchesters could use the MoL to unite hunters under common goals and to share knowledge and take leadership within the hunting community, which could bring forth all sorts of interesting dynamics. Hmmm. I doubt it will happen, but it’s fascinating to think about, so thank you.
I’m glad you decided to join in the conversation, and that my disagreeing didn’t put you off. Give and take makes for good discussion, I think. Don’t worry about being a newbie–everybody is sometime, right? 🙂
Thanks, just saying!
Agree to disagree, then.
Wouldn’t it be grand if Dean and Sam recruited, trained and sometimes led an elite group of hunters who received their assignments from the MoL in conjunction with reports from Garth and Kevin? Benny could be one if them, maybe. They would also go out on their own to keep from getting rusty, of course. Any new knowledge they and other hunters learned would be gathered and recorded in the MoL files? Have you noticed that we have seen Sam writing up cards on their jobs in a few episodes? He seems to be much more of a record-keeper than Dean which is a Winchester trait since John was a terrific journal-keeper. Dean, on the other hand, seem to have the hunting instincts of the Campbells. Charlie could be the family tree researcher of the MoL descendants to rebuild that group. With Abaddon in charge in place of Crowley, you know she’s going to want to neutralize the MoL group and their knowledge of curing demons since that was her original assignment. Hmm, send Crowley deep undercover in Hell in as a possible mole for MoL? Then there is the issue of the fallen angels – will they be interfering in the human affairs or simply trying to get back into Heaven and how does Cas fit into all that? As enemy number one or a leader in the effort to gather them and get back into heaven since he feels responsible? Maybe there will be factions as with Meg versus Crowley? The possibilities, oh, the possiblities…
Maybe that could be the true legacy of the Winchester/Campbell line – rebuilding the MoL and creating an organized, well-trained and knowledgeable hunter community.
Hi Booklady, I think that could easily be the show’s endgame, rather than the blaze-of-glory death thing. [i]I [/i]would like that as a finale anyway (which, of course, is not the same thing 😀 ). It would be wonderful to see the boys finally integrated into the world they have worked so hard to save and finally having the (bound to be dysfunctional) extended family that they need.
In the meantime though I would really love not to lose any more of the on the road, conversation in motel room style of the show, as I love it. (also super-speed Batcar not withstanding they can’t always be within driving distance of the lair). I was suspicious last year that they intended to split the guys up and stick Sam in the lair and send Dean out fighting which wouldn’t suit me AT ALL 😕 and they did do that a bit since Sam was ill but I think it probably isn’t going to be that way in general.
I would love to see them try to work with Crowley now, as seems to be the plan, since I guess he is going to be somewhat pissed with them … Should be sparks, will hopefully be awesome … the season 6 interaction between Team Free Will and Crowley was really great I thought.
I agree with you and eilf, that would be a great way to send the series off. 🙂
Oh, and still leave the door open for a movie.
“Six seasons and a movie” Except we already beat the seasons number so maybe … 2 movies!
(Poor guys I reckon they will be fed up to the back teeth of it all by the end of season 10 😛 )
😆 True enough, but after some time off they might feel differently. They still seem to love it but it is a grind.
BookLady, I’m not sure if it will ever happen (or if fans would like it, considering show’s sometimes issue with favoring guest stars over Winchesters in episodes), but I think it could be a natural progression for Sam and Dean. They do now have a home base in the bunker, which already has been used for storing lore and gathering information. I did notice that Sam has been writing up cards, and I do think that he would be the natural brother for record keeping. It makes me think about to The Usual Suspects, when Sam figured out the anagram through writing things down, while Dean worked it out in his head. This could also be used to have a joint storyline that could feature both of their strengths. Sam has been billed as the researcher, and he does respond positively to gathering knowledge and the tomes of the batcave, and as you said he’s already continuing the MoL legacy with his record-keeping. Dean has definitely been shown as a leader with the capability of teaching others, so it seems like the boys could naturally fall into those roles. I think you have some good ideas considering how other characters like Garth and Kevin could fit in, and it would be a shame not to tap into Charlie’s hacking skills when needed. It would also be an opportunity to introduce other characters (I know many fans would love Sam to have more people to connect with, and this would be an ideal way to do so), and it could introduce human conflict that’s not between the boys. Bringing together a group of lone wolves and trying to get them to work as a unit would be a challenge, and the Winchesters have a reputation that has definite dark spots others might not respect.
Agreed, there are many possibilities to this idea, and it would give the series a place to end. Whether the Js get their wish to go out in a blaze or not, they could leave behind a legacy in a network of MoL/hunter hybrids that are out there protecting people, the Winchester way. Naturally, none of this may ever come to pass; indeed, we have put more thought into this idea than the PTB because it may not interest them. It’s still fun to think about, even if it’s just in an AU fashion.
Hey guys! Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood administrator here. First, no spoilers in the comments please. I will have a thread going in the spoiler section soon, just as soon as I’ve seen the TV Guide with my own two eyes and know that I’m sharing accurate information. So you will have a chance to debate all things S9 soon.
I will be in the Supernatural press room at Comic Con next Sunday and I’ll hopefully be getting more information from Jensen, Jared, Misha, Mark, Jeremy Carver and Robert Singer about the season. So please, no over-speculating until more info surfaces. Even then, it’s going to be more teasers than spoilers.
Also, I’ve gotten some complaints about fans being disrespectful, Dean fans trashing Sam fans and vice versa. While I do accept that there have been a couple of instances where frustrations have gotten heated, apologies have been made and things have gotten back to a civil debate. So I’m leaving things alone for now. Just remember, keep it constructive and try to have respect for everyone’s opinions, whether you agree or not.
Thank you. Please return to your regular (and very interesting) debates.
[quote]To have both Sam and Dean being in hell possessed by and tortured by angels would have been the most downer ending in tv history, though technically that would have been a victory for Team Free Will.
[/quote]
Not for me. The worst downer ending in TV history for me as a Dean-fan was the episode as was.
“You are no longer a part of this story” indeed. This story – presumably of Dean`s – being the only thing that got me invested in.
For me it was a Sam-episode, culminating the five year Sam-arc of how Sam overcomes his dark destiny and saves the world. Dean wasn`t necessary to be in this episode. Or really, the entire story.
And it is pretty much the same for the trials. To me Sam didn`t do them alone because Kevin helped with the important translation and Naomi helped with getting Bobby`s soul to hell. Oh, and the Reaper guy helped, too.
Those all gave valuable contributions, Sam couldn`t have done without. But getting sandwiches served? That was something that could have been cut. Being fussed over? Could have been cut as well.
[quote]As by what did what, I answered above my view of team work – it’s not about who, in the end, took the final blow against evil, but every decision and effort that lead to that point, as much important (or more important so) than the final act.[/quote]
For me it`s the kind of “and I thank my agent and my parents and my spouse bla bla” speech actors give when winning awards. Or really anyone could make a comment like this, the old “I couldn`t have done it without you”.
That`s something people in my experience say to be nice, to give a little pat on the head of the person who didn`t really actually do anything to feel better. But it mostly means “yeah, you`re the sidekick at best”.
I tend to credit a person`s success and deeds TO that person and noone else. Kevin working tirelessly to translate the tablet is ALL Kevin for me, if Dean made him a sandwich or gave him a speech is of no importance in my eyes.
Sam actively did the trials. So again if Dean made him a sandwich or gave him a speech isn`t really of any real value to the task.
Sure, if a colleague of mine hands me a piece of paper of my work that has fallen to the floor, it is nice of them but that doesn`t in all seriousness mean I credit them with any percentage of my work. Not if they bring me some food either.
[quote][quote]To have both Sam and Dean being in hell possessed by and tortured by angels would have been the most downer ending in tv history, though technically that would have been a victory for Team Free Will.
[/quote]
Not for me. The worst downer ending in TV history for me as a Dean-fan was the episode as was.
“You are no longer a part of this story” indeed. This story – presumably of Dean`s – being the only thing that got me invested in.
[/quote]
I am confused about the “You are no longer a part of this story” line is that a quote from the show?
As a Team Free Will kinda girl (with a leaning towards really tall moose-men) I don’t know if the majority of Deangirls feel the way you do. If you (all) do I sympathize but the show has gotten more and more about characters and relationships and it has more than one lead character, them’s just facts. The action (and horror) has been developing to being more of a framing structure since mid season 1 and has since day one been centered on family. Sadly for those who want pure action and military precision it is not likely to change. (I was a huge fan of 24, have you ever tried that? 100% heroics, no room for grey areas – only one person you know you can / need to / should bother with rooting for since EVERYONE else ends up dead or a bad guy. Including Misha (both))
If it is any consolation I want to see Sam being way more of a central integrated character and perhaps have less of the non human stuff applying to him, I really do hope that that becomes Dean’s focus next season – that he gets the mytharc – and we get the sort of character development for Sam that we have always had for Dean. That should make everyone happy (unless they are only interested in one character or one relationship, in which case, well … there’s always the fast-forward button?)
[quote]Hi, Sasha.
I guess what we disagree upon is the definition of ‘doing’ things. I have a feeling (please, correct me if I’m wrong) that your ‘do’ things is action oriented, as in kill, beat, shoot and physically defeat the bad guy, or BE the bad guy.
Dean didn’t do those things, I agree: he didn’t kill the hellhound, he didn’t went to hell and rescued Bobby and he wasn’t the one curing Crowley. But, IMO, he did a LOT: he served as a general (which directly contradicts his statement that he is just a ‘grunt’): he set the goal (closing the Gates of Hell), the strategic moves (like using Abbadon as experiment demon – although it didn’t go well – or capturing Crowley for the same reason), kept everyone on mission when they strayed from that or started to doubt it (he did it with Kevin and with Sam), corrected the course when things went south (like when Sam got stuck in Purgatory or when Sam almost died with the fever).
He was also the one responsible for breaking Naomi’s grasp over Cas. And his strategy made them recover the angel tablet from Crowley (that Cas lost) and keep the demon tablet for themselves.
And yes, he was the one that made the final decision that it was not worth it to neither of them to be a martyr yet AGAIN in order to save the world (I say both of them because Sam is the one to end up dead but Dean was the one that had to live with his brother dead. AGAIN). Because, man, there must be ANOTHER way – I say enough is enough. And that, for me, is growth.
So, I saw Dean as the general, the leader that bonded everybody together, set the tasks and the goal and made the final decision when Sam was unable to. Not ‘just’ the cook or the caring brother which, in my PVO, is also extremely important and valid, not at all demeaning.
If this is not an important role, I don’t know what it is. Sometimes it is not about the one that kills the monster (the final act), but everybody that contributed for this moment to be possible.[/quote]
Yes, I see “doing” things as actually doing them. To me that is what the word implies. Helping is something else. Minor support is yet something below that level.
And I can`t see Dean as a general because the writing went out of its way to code him as cook and nurse only. A servant doing some busywork for the people with the important tasks.
I have very different ideas on what the portrayal of actual leadership would look like. Probably the farthest away from latter Season 8-Dean as possible. A grunt-ish warrior type, I might have been able to deal with but take an episode like “The Great Escapist” and if you put a woman in Dean`s role, I would have needed bleesh for the sexist stereotype. It`s no less demeaning for me if done by a man.
As for team-work in general, if you saw the Avengers, technically Tony saved the world, with Natasha maybe coming in second by disabling the force field. However, the final fight still had excellent team-work that gave multiple characters a chance to shine. Noone was related to passivity on the sidelines.
And Dean isn`t 80 years old. He is not the mentor figure that is out of the action mostly because they are just too old.
So just once I`d like to see DEAN at the center of the mytharc, be active and be the one to DO things and Sam can get the passive support role and cook for him. It`s boring to always do it the other way around.
[quote]I am confused about the “You are no longer a part of this story” line is that a quote from the show?
As a Team Free Will kinda girl (with a leaning towards really tall moose-men) I don’t know if the majority of Deangirls feel the way you do. If you (all) do I sympathize but the show has gotten more and more about characters and relationships and it has more than one lead character, them’s just facts. The action (and horror) has been developing to being more of a framing structure since mid season 1 and has since day one been centered on family. Sadly for those who want pure action and military precision it is not likely to change. (I was a huge fan of 24, have you ever tried that? 100% heroics, no room for grey areas – only one person you know you can / need to / should bother with rooting for since EVERYONE else ends up dead or a bad guy. Including Misha (both))
If it is any consolation I want to see Sam being way more of a central integrated character and perhaps have less of the non human stuff applying to him, I really do hope that that becomes Dean’s focus next season – that he gets the mytharc – and we get the sort of character development for Sam that we have always had for Dean. That should make everyone happy (unless they are only interested in one character or one relationship, in which case, well … there’s always the fast-forward button?)[/quote]
Yes, it is a quote directly from the episode and it was like insult to injury. I have never hated an episode of TV so much as this one. So, you may understand how I felt about Season 8.2, seeing as I found it to be one long drawn-out version of this episode.
In terms of a straight-up swap, I`d be all over that because I really don`t care for the “relationship and feels” emo busywork they give to Jensen. Maybe back in Seasons 1 and 2 but I`m completely sick of it now. It has no value to me whatsoever as writing for a character. It is in fact demeaning in my eyes.
If Dean got to be the Chosen One, developed superpowers or got soulless and got the kickass scenes? That would be fantastic for me. They never have to give the character a single emo line or “character work” for the rest of the show and I`d still be deliriously happy.
And I normally don`t hate character-driven stuff. If shows do it well, splendid. I just don`t happen to think Dean has benefited at all from it. In fact, the character IMO is nearly destroyed as of the end of Season 8. It is painful to watch him. Especially last year because of his strong and grown he came out of Purgatory and then the devolution to what I saw in the end.
I believe a real arc could give him impulses to grow and get strong again.
Oh, did try 24 btw and while I enjoyed the first Season well enough, it simply got too formulaic for me so I dropped it mid-Season 2.
[quote][quote]I am confused about the “You are no longer a part of this story” line is that a quote from the show?
As a Team Free Will kinda girl (with a leaning towards really tall moose-men) I don’t know if the majority of Deangirls feel the way you do. If you (all) do I sympathize but the show has gotten more and more about characters and relationships and it has more than one lead character, them’s just facts. The action (and horror) has been developing to being more of a framing structure since mid season 1 and has since day one been centered on family. Sadly for those who want pure action and military precision it is not likely to change. (I was a huge fan of 24, have you ever tried that? 100% heroics, no room for grey areas – only one person you know you can / need to / should bother with rooting for since EVERYONE else ends up dead or a bad guy. Including Misha (both))
If it is any consolation I want to see Sam being way more of a central integrated character and perhaps have less of the non human stuff applying to him, I really do hope that that becomes Dean’s focus next season – that he gets the mytharc – and we get the sort of character development for Sam that we have always had for Dean. That should make everyone happy (unless they are only interested in one character or one relationship, in which case, well … there’s always the fast-forward button?)[/quote]
Yes, it is a quote directly from the episode and it was like insult to injury. I have never hated an episode of TV so much as this one. So, you may understand how I felt about Season 8.2, seeing as I found it to be one long drawn-out version of this episode.
In terms of a straight-up swap, I`d be all over that because I really don`t care for the “relationship and feels” emo busywork they give to Jensen. Maybe back in Seasons 1 and 2 but I`m completely sick of it now. It has no value to me whatsoever as writing for a character. It is in fact demeaning in my eyes.
If Dean got to be the Chosen One, developed superpowers or got soulless and got the kickass scenes? That would be fantastic for me. They never have to give the character a single emo line or “character work” for the rest of the show and I`d still be deliriously happy.
And I normally don`t hate character-driven stuff. If shows do it well, splendid. I just don`t happen to think Dean has benefited at all from it. In fact, the character IMO is nearly destroyed as of the end of Season 8. It is painful to watch him. Especially last year because of his strong and grown he came out of Purgatory and then the devolution to what I saw in the end.
I believe a real arc could give him impulses to grow and get strong again.
Oh, did try 24 btw and while I enjoyed the first Season well enough, it simply got too formulaic for me so I dropped it mid-Season 2.[/quote]
Re 24 – yes, exactly! 😀 One hero who is unbreakable, no real character complexity – formulaic! Entertainingly psycho though.
Re the quote, it follows Dean saying to a souped up archangel:
DEAN: Well, then you’re next on my list, buttercup. But right now, I need five minutes with him.
LOL what do you want from life? That comeback from Michael is weak, shows that the angels have no way of understanding how much trouble they are in. Dean rocked that whole scene!
I realize nothing I can say will make you feel any better about the show you would like to be watching, so apologies for being unable to help you. Enjoy season 9! (maybe? 🙂 )
[quote]Enjoy season 9! (maybe? 🙂 )[/quote]
Everything indicates it`s going to be like the second half of Season 8 with the Dean Who? Just cubed. So enjoyment is probably going to be a pipe dream.
I think Season 8 set the characters firmly in the roles the writers see them in: Sam is Sam and Dean is “Sam`s brother”. One matters individually, one is an accessory. The storytelling in Season 8 reflected that completely.
Hey, Sasha, I understand your point of view. But to be truthful, I can’t see why SPN would be a show to please you. It’s is a drama, after all! It’s got action, horror and great humor, but its main aim and strength is to tear the viewers’ hearts to shreds – and it delivers it effectively in a regular basis! So, lots of emo stuff happens, with the great advantage of not being soapy (most of the time, at least).
This is what most fans like about the show (well, that’s what like about it), and not exactly the action and the horror, which are more of a background noise to the drama.
Eilf is right – action packed shows are great, but gets repetitive and boring quickly.
On the other hand, I’m having a problem understanding your view on team work and on leadership. In my understanding, a great job in done in team (like Team Free Will), and without a team leader, nothing is done – it’s caos, mayhem, nothing is done or nothing works, because nobody knows what, why or when to do something. No concensus, no direction, no goal set. For me, Dean was the leader, the force that moved the machine. Therefore, I can’t see how he wasn’t important. And by the way, the leader is always the one that receives the trophy.
[quote][quote] And by the way, the leader is always the one that receives the trophy.[/quote]
Perhaps it would be fair to say then that the PTB could have could have blunted at least some of the criticism and ire (not all of it, of course–it is fandom) by acknowledging either in interview or on screen that Dean was the leader and what he was doing was important in the back half of S8? Jeremy Carver and Bob Singer certainly never acknowledged that Dean’s leadership was crucial–if they mentioned him at all, it was to talk about how he was trying to take care of Sam, period. On show, Sam actively rejected his help, and at no point did anyone acknowledge that he was their leader, acting as their strategist, etc. I don’t need a trophy, but a little recognition either on or off screen (preferably both) would have helped, in my opinion.
As it was, since show placed no emphasis on Dean’s role in the trials, even actively discouraging the idea by having Sam sharply tell him multiple times that he was doing it alone, it’s easy to interpret his role as being less vital than you’re presenting it. Don’t get me wrong–I’d like to see it your way. I’m just not convinced show does, and that to me is the problem.
Also, I hesitate to broadly generalize why most people watch this show. I think everyone probably brings a different set of wants and likes to the table, don’t you?
[quote]On the other hand, I’m having a problem understanding your view on team work and on leadership. In my understanding, a great job in done in team (like Team Free Will), and without a team leader, nothing is done – it’s caos, mayhem, nothing is done or nothing works, because nobody knows what, why or when to do something. No concensus, no direction, no goal set. For me, Dean was the leader, the force that moved the machine. Therefore, I can’t see how he wasn’t important. And by the way, the leader is always the one that receives the trophy.[/quote]
Because the presentation of it was as far away from “vital leader” as I could imagine.
Lets forget the first trial ep that ended by Sam giving Dean some speech on how he, Dean, mattered but the episode itself (and the following ones) made a mockery out of it.
Genius at lore? Next few episodes Dean knows nothing about nothing. Even civilians have to explain lore to him.
No grunt? Hahaha. Sam tells him multiple times how he, Sam, has to do the trials. Solo. For the second trial, solo-action-Sam jumps through Purgatory while Dean gets send off to stay home and tend to the kitchen. That`s how the “little wife” of a soldier in movies pre 1950 would get treated, not a leader.
Dean`s scenes in trial episodes aren`t even actively helping, they are about housewife, maybe Mommy duties.
What he does get beyond that is stuff like telling a Priest how great Sam is and how Sam will for sure succeed. Because Charlie and Sarah telling the viewers to focus on what a great hero Sam is weren`t enough, I guess.
Dean is never acknowledged in such a way. For him it always becomes on how he isn`t strong enough and can`t handle it and how he needs to be taken to the light and how he couldn`t kill a hellhound and how he isn`t emotionally fit (aka strong enough again) to do those trials.
What the show presented him as since the trials started was Sam`s cape-holder. He didn`t lead anyone and he didn`t work in a team either. Sam and Kevin worked in this team because they filled valuable roles, Dean cooked for them. That`s hardly on the some level as actually doing the trials and actually translating the tablet.
Even the MOL was, as per Singer and Carver, set up to bring SAM into the fold more. Therefore, when he expressed interest in being a MOL, it is presented as something great. When Dean refers to himself that way, the scene is shot as “what is that doofus talking about?”
In terms of the bunker, Dean gets two things: domestic stuff aka housewife and comic relief. He isn`t considered a legacy but maybe the pseudo-wife of one who cooks and cleans.
In terms of SPN being a certain kind of show: why then do Sam and Cas and Kevin and Crowley still do HAVE genre, action-laced mytharcs? Why are they not in this solely emo-driven show? Why is Dean the only character stuck there?
And what about in Season 4 when it looked like Dean had for once a real mytharc to him, was the show different then?
I`d say it was about ten trillion times better, of course, but it didn`t fundamentally change.
So giving Dean a real story doesn`t mean changing the nature of the show IMO.
I was reading only now the thread about the wishes for Dean in S09. I see now that this subject was already discussed at length. Of course, it can’t be helped the way that two, three, twenty people see the same thing differently, since we see it flavoured by our own experiences and values (and I believe there is another thread where this exact subject was recently discussed).
You see Dean shown as weak and unimportant. It’s ok, you have every right to feel this way. But I can’t. I see Dean in S08 more aware of and comfortable in the role of leader that he has always been, but was repressed with the role of obedient soldier he put himself in when his father was alive. I see him more sure of himself, more assertive and secure about who he is, the decisions he makes and the possible consequences of his choices.
I see Dean the man that, though much younger, when put in a room with the best and most experient hunters on Earth and beyond – Sam, Bobby, Rufus and Samuel (And Then There Was None) – is still the one calling the shots (with Sam trimming up the rough edges – as demonstrated in The Real Ghostbusters 😀 ). The same thing happens when he is in a room full of angels, demons, reapers, Death – doesn’t matter! It’s like in S07E01 – Bobby and Sam both agreed that they should stop Cas while Dean was fixing the Impala. Still nobody moved till Dean said ‘let’s go’.
This is how I see Dean. Letting him cook a meal for his sick brother and doesn’t be ashamed to do so doesn’t change that for me – it only makes him closer to my heart.
I have no problem with a myth arc for Dean. That would be nice. But if that would mean change forever the core of who he is (IMO) – a brave but flawed hero AND a kind, loving man – I wouldn’t care for this story at all. And I’m greatful to TPTB for not having gone all the way with DarkSam for the same reason. That is what would ruin the show for me.
[quote]I see Dean the man that, though much younger, when put in a room with the best and most experient hunters on Earth and beyond – Sam, Bobby, Rufus and Samuel (And Then There Was None) – is still the one calling the shots (with Sam trimming up the rough edges – as demonstrated in The Real Ghostbusters 😀 ). The same thing happens when he is in a room full of angels, demons, reapers, Death – doesn’t matter! It’s like in S07E01 – Bobby and Sam both agreed that they should stop Cas while Dean was fixing the Impala. Still nobody moved till Dean said ‘let’s go’.
This is how I see Dean. Letting him cook a meal for his sick brother and doesn’t be ashamed to do so doesn’t change that for me – it only makes him closer to my heart. [/quote]
Awesome. I find this to be spot-on. 🙂
[quote][quote][quote] And by the way, the leader is always the one that receives the trophy.[/quote]
Perhaps it would be fair to say then that the PTB could have could have blunted at least some of the criticism and ire (not all of it, of course–it is fandom) by acknowledging either in interview or on screen that Dean was the leader and what he was doing was important in the back half of S8? Jeremy Carver and Bob Singer certainly never acknowledged that Dean’s leadership was crucial–if they mentioned him at all, it was to talk about how he was trying to take care of Sam, period. On show, Sam actively rejected his help, and at no point did anyone acknowledge that he was their leader, acting as their strategist, etc. I don’t need a trophy, but a little recognition either on or off screen (preferably both) would have helped, in my opinion.
As it was, since show placed no emphasis on Dean’s role in the trials, even actively discouraging the idea by having Sam sharply tell him multiple times that he was doing it alone, it’s easy to interpret his role as being less vital than you’re presenting it. Don’t get me wrong–I’d like to see it your way. I’m just not convinced show does, and that to me is the problem.
Also, I hesitate to broadly generalize why most people watch this show. I think everyone probably brings a different set of wants and likes to the table, don’t you?[/quote]
I think Sam was rejecting Dean’s help and care because he was trying to prove to his brother that he could do it alone – meaning, that he was not a screwup, that he could be trusted – not that Dean wasn’t able to help, or do the trials himself.
I didn’t mean to generalize – I just assumed that the brother’s bond was what attracted the majority of fans and viewers. Of course, everyone is entitled their preferences. 🙂
And I’m sorry, you are right – I like everybody’s contribution and perspective – that’s why I come to this site. I helps me better understand the story and the characters, and makes me see things I haven’t thought about. So, thanks, everyone! 🙂
Very nice posts Ale! I love your take on Dean, that is how I see him as well. 🙂
[/quote] I think Sam was rejecting Dean’s help and care because he was trying to prove to his brother that he could do it alone – meaning, that he was not a screwup, that he could be trusted – not that Dean wasn’t able to help, or do the trials himself. [/quote]
My apologies if I have once again failed to get the quotes right. I know I’ve seen it explained before, but I seem to have some mental block when it comes to getting that right myself. I just wanted to say that I agree with you re: Sam’s perspective. I think that he was very much acting out of pride and determination to show that he could do this alone, without help. But . . . he didn’t. He had lots of help in Taxi Driver, from Reapers to Benny to Dean himself for sending Benny. I’m not sure that ever registered with Sam or show. So while I understand Sam’s perspective, it doesn’t change the fact that he did reject Dean’s help and did not acknowledge Dean’s leadership, nor did anyone else. Again, I think that’s the main problem here. It’s not that casting Dean as the leader is wrong–it’s great. But acknowledge it and celebrate it on-screen, if I’m supposed to see this as his role and as a positive step for him. By having it go unrecognized by the show at large and actively discouraged by Sam in particular, it diminishes the importance of the role until it is unclear whether it was supposed to be seen as good. That’s the point I was trying to make.
As for Dean’s role, without addressing specifics that have been discussed before I once again think that show often fails to strike a balance with their characters. There is literally no reason in the world that show cannot write an action-oriented arc for Dean that does not detract from the character he is. The same can be said for Sam–there is literally no reason he cannot continue to have a role in the main arc while also receiving POV and character development I think it sells the characters and writers short to not hold the high expectations for the writers to strike a balance between Dean the leader/brother and Dean as a character who can drive the story, rather than reacting to others, just as they should between Sam the mytharc driver and Sam the brother/person in his own right. I don’t think they’ve hit that balance for a while, and I hope that they do better in S9.
Just saying, thanks for your last paragraph!
I think most, if not all, SPN fans will agree, both Sam and Dean fans alike. Not to generalize or anything. 😆
It would be great if the writers could meet our high expectations and I’m sure they’ll do their best. All we can do is wait and see, and hope.
By the way, is it bad that though I’ve never been to one, that I can recognize YouTube J2 convention clips by what Jared and Jensen are wearing? Is that a sign of being part of the crazy Supernatural family?
It is a good point that Sam said he was going to do the trials alone. He was the first one to comment about it and has a big long speech about it in Trial and Error. Here is the relevant part of Sam’s speech about whether any help is required or should be offered when doing the trials:
[quote] So I’m gonna do these trials. I’m gonna do them alone — end of story. You’re staying here. I’m going out there. If landshark comes knocking, you call me. If you try to follow me, I’m gonna put a bullet in your damn leg. [/quote]
I do agree that that is an extremely ungrateful comment from Sam about whether his brother should be able to offer assistance 😉 Working together as a team would be a better idea.
It always seemed pretty obvious to me that no matter what the guys said or which of them was actually under the spell they were both going to need to be involved to survive the trials and complete them.
I see what you did there, elif. O.o
As it happens, I agree with you. Dean didn’t go into taking on the trials with any better of an attitude–which is exactly how I knew he wasn’t going to be allowed to do them, even as he was giving the speech. After Dean talked about dying to complete the trials so Sam could have a better life and how he had to complete them by himself, show made it quite clear that this was the wrong state of mind. Therefore, he was disqualified from a narrative standpoint. Ironically, Sam adopted both of these “wrong” attitudes over the course of the rest of the season and show did not similarly call him out. I find that interesting, don’t you?
I agree, it does seem obvious that both boys were going to be needed to complete the trials and that they were going to work together. Maybe someone should have told the PTB. 😆