sweetondean’s Spoiler-lite preview – “Supernatural” 8.09 “Citizen Fang”
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh it’s the last episode before the HELLATUS! We’re heading in a bit early this year, at episode 9. But still! We have 5 weeks ahead to sweat over what happens this week and drive ourselves crazy with more theories, though maybe, this week will help us with some of those? (Yeah right!). Ok, there’s no putting it off, here’s the last preview for 2012.
THEN
Dean came back from Purgatory, with a friend.
Benny, he seems nice, except for the vampire thing.
Sam met a girl and a dog and well, we think he did.
Sam and Dean had an EPIC fight, or rather, Dean yelled a lot.
Sam keeps flashing back to his dream life, which seems only dreamy in appearance.
Dean keeps flashing back to his Purgatory life, where he looks totally dreamy.
Sam and Dean are talking but not talking talking.
Cass came home, but he doesn’t know how.
Dean thought he left the little guy behind, but it turns out, not so much.
The angels are being angels again, as in, dicks!
Kevin saw Crowley’s true colours and lost a digit in the process.
The God rock got broken in two and it looks like the good guys got the boring half.
Kevin and his mamma are in hiding with Garth on a houseboat!
The brothers appear to have bought a tanning bed.
NOW
Crazy Martin is back!
And vampires, . Meep!
Hands up who liked Martin? Me! “Sam Interrupted” was one of those episodes that grew on me. I didn’t love it at first, except for the boys getting around in pjs the whole time and that “Pudding” thing, , , , , …….what? Oh yes. Martin.
Martin Creaser was a hunter friend of John who went a bit crazy-town and wound up as a patient in a psychiatric hospital that was being decimated by a wraith. The boys checked themselves in, by telling the truth (I loved that), and then proceed to go buckets of crazy themselves after being infected by the wraith’s toxin. Martin, for all his said crazy, helped them solve the case and escape. I liked Martin a lot and I like the actor who played him, John Gries. So, I’m pretty happy to have Martin back, though maybe not under these circumstances.
Let’s take a look at the official synopsis for this week.
SAM PUTS A TRACKER ON BENNY – Sam asks a hunter named Martin (guest star Jon Gries) to keep an eye on Benny (guest star Ty Olsson) without telling Dean. However, when Martin tells Sam there was a vampire kill and he thinks Benny is responsible, Dean defends his friend. When Martin decides to take things into his own hands, things get messy and Dean is forced to make a very hard decision. Nick Copus directed the episode written by Daniel Loflin.
Dean is forced to make a very hard decision. DEAN IS FORCED TO MAKE A VERY HARD DECISION. GAH!
Another freshman director! This will be Nick Copus’ first “Supernatural”, but he’s got a great big resume, including a bunch of Nikita’s and The 4400’s and stacks more, plus he’s just done an episode of Arrow, so I like him already.
This week’s episode is written by Daniel Loflin. Last week’s episode was written by his writing partner, Andrew Dabb. Do you think these guys had a fight or something!? I’m most interested to see how Loflin does, because I thought Dabb did a great job with his solo outing. Maybe these two hold each other back when they write together?
What are we to make of the title, “Citizen Fang” did Benny have a sled called Rosebud (serious Citizen Kane spoiler there, so apologies if you didn’t know that)? Rosebud, of course, represented everything that Kane didn’t have in his world of wealth and power. It was the only piece of his childhood that he could remember, that tiny bit of happiness, before everything was ripped away. He didn’t even consciously remember that sled, as he turned into the mogul he became, but in his dying moments, that was the one thing that came back to him, the one thing that was important, not his wealth, not his stature, but the simplicity of his life as a child and the love of a mother he never knew. It was something that he never lost; he’d just completely buried it, as he became someone else. Rosebud represented who Kane could have been, had he not been dragged from that life and pushed into another, a life that essentially destroyed his humanity and turned him into a monster.
Ok, cinema theory over! Though if you want to read a great interview with Orson Welles about the psychology behind Citizen Kane and Rosebud, it’s here. (Yes I’m a movie buff as well as a “Supernatural” nut).
So putting all that aside, because it could mean zip, what does the CW promo tell us?
There’s a vampire in town and he/she is killing. Is it Benny? Sam seems to think yes, Dean, obviously, doesn’t want to think so. Benny’s never let him down. (Flashy edit flash flash flash edit).
What does the CHCH promo tell us? Yay I found it this week!
Martin features in this promo! We see him telling his story about the vampire – we assume he’s talking about Benny. Martin still looks a tad jittery to me. Sam and Dean butt heads over Benny. Sam says he doesn’t know Benny. Dean tells someone – I assume it’s Sam by Dean’s eyeline – that he’s not to fight Benny because he’d be lucky to get out alive. Then we see Dean confront Benny.
Benny “We gonna talk a bit or what?”
Dean “Let’s get to the part about the blood.”
Now, how about the preview clip?
Dean comes back to the car with food (bless) and Sam is on the phone to someone, he seems a bit frustrated. Dean asks what’s going on. Sam tells him that there’s been a vampire attack in Louisiana. Interestingly, Dean doesn’t immediately jump to where Sam has gone or where we would go, that it might be that southern belle of a vampire Benny, but rather he jumps to etouffe! Dean and that stomach of his! Dean asks, who’s the source and it turns out it’s their crazy old friend Martin Creaser. Dean’s pretty astonished by the news that Martin is out. Sam says he seems ok “mostly” and then instantly comes clean with Dean that he’s had “mostly ok” Martin tracking Benny for a week. Dean is astonished again and confused and a whole lot of something else, but he seems to be keeping a tight lid on it.
Dean “So Martin says Benny did this.”
Sam “Yeah”
Dean “Okay”
Sam “Okay?”
Dean “If Benny’s in Louisiana draining folks, we should look into it.”
Sam O.O
Us O.O
Well, I don’t think that conversation went quite how Sam was expecting! He looked all tense and ready for his brother to fight him and yet, Dean didn’t.
I said somewhere, or maybe I just thought it, I can’t even tell anymore, that these two appear to be walking on eggshells around each other. Like they both know it’s all there, all the crap, simmering under the surface, but neither wants to explore it or explode it. It’s easier to just suppress it all than face it. It’s like they’re together, but not together together (and I don’t mean together together like together together…!).
They need to have it out. They really do. We all know something’s coming. We’ve all heard the buzz out there about a conversation that’s coming down the line. But what happens before that. Is there finally going to be a proper, non-supernaturally interfered with, showdown between Sam and Dean? Is it in this episode?
It’s the midseason finale, so, midseason finale=fan pain, we know that right? Last season we were left in a blubbery mess! So what are our options?
Sam and Dean have a great big fight and Sam storms off to find Amelia (not want).
Sam and Dean have a great big fight and Dean storms off to join Benny (not want).
Sam kills Benny (not want).
Dean kills Benny (not want).
Martin kills Benny (not want).
Benny kills Martin (not want).
Dean kills Martin (not want x 1 million).
Benny is the vampire in question (not want).
They all realise it was a huge mistake and go off to have a beer together and laugh about it (want, puppies and rainbows all around!).
Ugh. I have a feeling in my waters that it’s going to be one of the first two, .and I really don’t want either of them but I really don’t want 2 over 1 more. I’d be far more okay with Sam taking a time out than Dean going off with the vampire. That makes my stomach hurt. It all makes my stomach hurt and I haven’t even watched it yet! But, we know that this being all-reasonable with each other stuff can’t go on. The scene in the Impala is great, but it’s great because it’s, “Huh?”
Also, I’m pretty sure Martin is still looney tunes so, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s totally jumped to the wrong conclusion and got it all around his crazy chops. I’m pretty sure that it’s not going to be Benny but some other vamp.
I wonder if we’re going to see the Alpha anytime soon? I mean, he sure as hell teased it on his last encounter with Sam and Dean.
Anyway, so, how are we all feeling? Excited, nervous, sick to the stomach? All three? I’m going with all three. I think this episode looks great. But it looks painful, but I kinda like that, because I’m weird and twisted and a “Supernatural” fan, so I gotta be good with angst right?
Let me know your thoughts, theories, fears…just on the show though, you know,
And for promo pics from this episode and upcoming spoilers don’t forget to check out our spoiler page.
Enjoy the episode and see you later in reviewland!
-sweetondean
I am not ready for this episode, I’m really not. I don’t want it to end up like the whole Amy thing, where Sam storms off for a week and a half. WHY CAN’T WE HAVE NICE THINGS?!
[quote] WHY CAN’T WE HAVE NICE THINGS?![/quote]
Because this is Supernatural! 😥
I’ll wager Dean being the one to ‘stomp off’ for a week or so with his new favourite brother.
NOW I KNOW WHAT TO COOK TOMORROW, SHRIMP ETOUFEE’ !
I LOVE BENNY, AS DID I MACKEY, FROM “THE BORN AGAIN IDENITY” JUST SOMETHING ABOUT A NO NONSENSE PLAIN-TALKING RUFF NECK 🙄 I DO NOT WANT BENNY TO GO AWAY. (ALSO THEY CAN BRING BACK GARTH BUT NOT MACKEY…ok ok)
MARTIN IS QUIRKY AND A VINTAGE HUNTER SO NICE TO SEE HIM BACK.
IT’S GOT TO BE A CLIFFHANGER CORRECT? HELLATUS. SO I DONT KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT BUT AM SORRY WE ARE RERUNING SO SOON.
I HAVE NOT BEEN A FAN OF THIS SEASON BUT I STILL WANT MY NEW WINCHESTER WEDNESDAYS 😀
HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL 😆
Here are my two takes on the title:
Citizen Kane: Rich mogul type, lost his mother when young, never recovered: Nobody currently on the show is a rich and mysterious mogul – but two older characters are (or at least appear to be rich) – both of whom are vampires – Benny’s sire (who we don’t know for sure is dead) and the Alpha vamp. Do we think it might be one of those?
Actually Benny’s sire would get great pleasure out of setting Benny up so that Dean kills him!
What about White Fang? I haven’t read it (yes, I know….but I have seen Citizen Kane! One out of two ain’t bad) but Wikipedia puts it like this: A wild wolfdog’s journey to domestication. White Fang examines the violent world of wild animals and the equally violent world of humans. The book also explores complex themes including morality and redemption.
Does that sound like something in SPN’s wheelhouse or what?
I never thought of White Fang! I haven’t read it either but I’ve seen the movie, does that count?
And that definitely soundsl like something in SPN’s wheelhouse – they both do.
I am not ready for this ep. I am waiting withe bated breath to see what the cliffy will be. It won’t be a fun Christmas break, angsting.
What has me wondering is how Sam hooked back up with Martin. Last we saw him he was in the nuthouse, and Sam supposedly didn’t hunt for the year Dean was missing. Hmmmm.
Maybe he had Sam’s number? Though it’s been a few years!
This would be part of Garth’s job now. Hunter phonebook!
True! He probably got on to Garth somehow and then on to Sam.
I vote we all go have beers together. (Ok. Already discussed that one. Sorry.)
I like Martin. But not so sure I’d trust his opinion on anything important just yet.
*waving hand in air* Yes, to being excited, nervous and sick about this one! The one thing I’m absolute sure of is that we’ll have loads and loads of brother angst, just so we’re left “in a blubberly mess” again! 😥 Added to buckets full of moral dilemmas and WTF and WOULD YOU JUST TALK! moments. 😮
Midseason hellatus is going to be a major pain!
That reference to Citizen Kane has me totally befuddled… Will we see more of Benny’s background? Does he have “a Rosebud”? Are his memories being manipulated by angels too?? The Alpha?? (Bring back the Alpha Vamp!!)
I’m assuming Cas is still parked beside Fred Jones for this episode, but will we get anything more about Sam’s year?? – Could Amelia be his Rosebud – the one thing he doesn’t have now – that tiny bit of happiness that was ripped away? (Reaching? Yes, I think so.)
Any other hints into Dean’s manipulated memories- or was the one with Cas the only thing he got wrong?
[quote]Any other hints into Dean’s manipulated memories- or was the one with Cas the only thing he got wrong?[/quote]
I wonder?
I really hope we don’t loose Ty Olsson as Benny so soon. I really like his character. The show runners have said we were going to see more grown up Winchester boys, so I really hope we don’t have Sam stomping off again. That’s been done way too many times. From the clips I can’t see any choice Dean makes being one the fans are going to like or want. My best guess is Martin goes after Benny and Benny kills Martin in self defense and Dean lets it slide and then the angst begins.
[quote]I really hope we don’t loose Ty Olsson as Benny so soon. I really like his character. The show runners have said we were going to see more grown up Winchester boys, so I really hope we don’t have Sam stomping off again. That’s been done way too many times. From the clips I can’t see any choice Dean makes being one the fans are going to like or want. My best guess is Martin goes after Benny and Benny kills Martin in self defense and Dean lets it slide and then the angst begins.[/quote]
Whatever happens…it’s going to hurt us!
Is it just me or has this seemed like a l-o-n-g week? Is it Winchester Wednesday yet???
Well…. we are going into hellatus and it isn’t called that for nothin’ so we can be assured of some angsty-ness. But…. I’m sure we also can look forward to a couple of giggles (I hope) plus some great performances from two of the best actors out there (and the best looking actors out there). Is it Winchester Wednesday yet?
Speculation….. what if Sam knows Martin is out because Sam was in the nut house with Martin?? I know, probably way off base but….. just somethin’ to noodle over until…. is it Winchester Wednesday yet?
At this point, I would be happy if Dean went off to hunt by himself and Sam returned to Amelia and fixing clogged toilets and aging air conditioners.. Sam’s still pissy and, obviously, is obsessed with Benny. He’s still back at S4 thinking Dean is weaker than him and certainly not as bright, and Dean (once again) is letting his chain be jerked by Sam.
I’m a little disappointed in the promos. Dean came back a confident hunter, but in these clips he’s questioning his judgment about Benny. From JC’s promotion, Dean has to reconcile being friends with a monster while having spent his whole life killing monsters. I’ve been wondering what Dean’s story is this season, so maybe that’s it.
I hope we don’t lose Benny, too, although I think he’s probably a dead vampire walking by the end of the season. I also like Martin and hope that he isn’t killed off this episode.
I do find it rather odd that Dean and Martin were the two to interact when we first met Martin, but Martin calls Sam when he gets out? Sam and Martin had no interactions at all in that episode.
Oh, well. It looks like a good episode. I’ll be interested to see how Loflin does on his own. I liked Dabb’s solo a lot.
[quote]At this point, I would be happy if Dean went off to hunt by himself and Sam returned to Amelia and fixing clogged toilets and again air conditioners.. [/quote]
I wonder that too. I mean basically the writers are stripping away the reason for Sam to exist in the show. Dean has a better brother, Don’s back. No one need Sam, there’s no need for him and no place for him in anyone’s life. Sam said Dean’ll be okay hunting alone, so why does he still tagging along?
[quote]He’s still back at S4 thinking Dean is weaker than him and certainly not as bright, and Dean (once again) is letting his chain be jerked by Sam.[/quote]
Please allow me to laugh here but I am not laughing at you Ginger. I am laughing at the writers. In the beginning of the season they insisted that Sam is weak, that he can’t handle the loss. So, instead of buckling up and steeled his resolved and face his responsibility as a brother, they made Sam ‘ran’, saying that his world ‘imploded’ (yet, we’re not shown how bad that is) and he can’t take it anymore.
Now, they’re establishing that Sam considers Dean weak and misjudges his decision in trusting Benny? Sam thinks that Dean’s not as bright as him? Where’s your smart when you decide to ‘ran away’ and not looking for your brother, Sam? The fact that you’re not looking and not helping Dean get out of Purg is the reason why Dean has to swallow his distastes and accepting a monster’s help. Helooo Sam, can you spell hypocrite?
I am very sorry, Ginger but you raised a good point there. The inconsistency of the writing is just beyond annoying.
[quote]I do find it rather odd that Dean and Martin were the two to interact when we first met Martin, but Martin calls Sam when he gets out? Sam and Martin had no interactions at all in that episode.[/quote]
This too is part of the inconsistency. Unless Sam was lying and he called Martin first. In Repo man, Sam and Dean ditched their old phones and Nora couldn’t get a hold of them. Sam ditched his new phones. Martin wouldn’t be able to contact Sam or Dean unless Sam called him first.
Bad writing? inconsistency? something that they do very well ever since S7. Hard to break the habit, I guess.
Nowhere, and at no time has Sam called Dean weak this season, and IMHO they have not implied that either.
I have to agree with E here, and further add that I do not think the writers insisted that Sam was weak at the start of this season. That is an interpretation made by some fans. We all see things differently. I also think that Sam is skeptical of Dean’s decision to trust a vampire, which is completely understandable. I do not for a second think Sam thinks Dean is weak for doing so.
[quote]I have to agree with E here, and further add that I do not think the writers insisted that Sam was weak at the start of this season. That is an interpretation made by some fans. [/quote]
Yes, thank you.
Hi Ginger
I’m not seeing Sam’s confusion over Dean’s friendship with Benny as suggesting that Sam sees Dean as weak. Neither has really explained their situation to each other, at least not that we’ve seen, they seem to be actively avoiding that conversation, damn them! So to me, I don’t think he sees it as weak, more he just doesn’t get it?
I also don’t see Dean questioning his judgement in this, though I think you could be right in saying that he might be put into a situation where he does. I’d be more concerned if Dean outrightly dismissed the notion that Benny could have gone off the rails. I’m happy to see that he’s going, ok then, we’ll go check it out.
Maybe both the brother’s stories are about coming to terms with past mindsets and reassessing them as they move forward?
I’m with you, I so don’t want to lose Benny and I don’t want to lose Martin! So I think I’m in for a bit of pain! Because this is a midseason finale and it ain’t gonna end pretty!
I hope Sam doesn’t decide to go back to Amelia, I hate a Winchester break-up, but I do think it’s a pretty good chance huh? For least an episode…hopefully no longer!
It does look like a good ep. Dabb really surprised me so I hope Loflin does too!
Wouldn’t it be nice if we were talking about what the Winchesters are doing in relation to the mytharc, instead of ‘feelings?’
I enjoyed the Purgatory stuff [i]a lot[/i], because that’s where the action was, and I miss the action/drama in the show. Personally, I can live without the brothers having ‘the talk’ to set their relationship right.
No, I don’t think Sam and Dean will split up, although I think that would be the most logical progression for the show to take. Yet, with powerful Cas back, death and serious injury is off the table, and we know the brothers will remain together. With those two major suspense themes gone, I suppose reassessing their feelings about each other and their viewpoints about hunting is what’s left on the table.
Why do I think I’m talking about Being Human and not SPN?
It will be bad if Sam walks away to return to Ameila, but it will be worse if Dean chooses his “better brother” Benny and rejects Sam. I really, really hope that it doesn’t come to this.
this does seem to be where the show is headed, Carver’s interviews are suggesting that Dean will chose Benny over Sam and not Sam leaving Dean for Amelia. I’m not sure Sam even has the option of going back to Amelia, I know we’ll see her eventually in real time because there are issues there to be resolved but I dont think its as clear cut as Sam going back to play ‘happy’ families with her.
I’m smelling a twist in Sam’s story coming in this episode and heartache for him too. The whole ‘better brother’ thing and Sam not looking are bound to be thrown in his face again at some point.
[quote]At this point, I would be happy if Dean went off to hunt by himself and Sam returned to Amelia and fixing clogged toilets and aging air conditioners.. Sam’s still pissy and, obviously, is obsessed with Benny. He’s still back at S4 thinking Dean is weaker than him and certainly not as bright, and Dean (once again) is letting his chain be jerked by Sam.
I’m a little disappointed in the promos. Dean came back a confident hunter, but in these clips he’s questioning his judgment about Benny. From JC’s promotion, Dean has to reconcile being friends with a monster while having spent his whole life killing monsters. I’ve been wondering what Dean’s story is this season, so maybe that’s it.
I hope we don’t lose Benny, too, although I think he’s probably a dead vampire walking by the end of the season. I also like Martin and hope that he isn’t killed off this episode.
I do find it rather odd that Dean and Martin were the two to interact when we first met Martin, but Martin calls Sam when he gets out? Sam and Martin had no interactions at all in that episode.
Oh, well. It looks like a good episode. I’ll be interested to see how Loflin does on his own. I liked Dabb’s solo a lot.[/quote]
Martin knows Sam , when the boys first meet him Sam is right there , he obviously knew the boys so no it isnt that surprising he would call Sam he isnt a stranger to him.
Benny is a new addition to Dean’s circle I dont really see him questioning him or his own judgement Sam on the other hand is under no such obligation , he doesnt know Benny . I fully know Sam has been and will be accused of alot of things where Benny is concerned the writers set it up in a way that will be easy to do that but he wouldnt win irrespective of what he did but I do expect Benny to be innocent and Sam to of been wrong for ever doubting the vampire .
The one thing I do agree with you is Sam but not for the reasons you have but simply because Dean has two other brothers that can now fulfil Sam’s brother role ones he doesnt hold resentment’s against and I want Sam to find something genuine in his life
[quote]He’s still back at S4 thinking Dean is weaker than him and certainly not as bright, [/quote]HUH!!!! When (in s08)
[quote]At this point, I would be happy if Dean went off to hunt by himself and Sam returned to Amelia and fixing clogged toilets and aging air conditioners.. Sam’s still pissy and, obviously, is obsessed with Benny. He’s still back at S4 thinking Dean is weaker than him and certainly not as bright, and Dean (once again) is letting his chain be jerked by Sam.
I’m a little disappointed in the promos. Dean came back a confident hunter, but in these clips he’s questioning his judgment about Benny. From JC’s promotion, Dean has to reconcile being friends with a monster while having spent his whole life killing monsters. I’ve been wondering what Dean’s story is this season, so maybe that’s it.
I hope we don’t lose Benny, too, although I think he’s probably a dead vampire walking by the end of the season. I also like Martin and hope that he isn’t killed off this episode.
I do find it rather odd that Dean and Martin were the two to interact when we first met Martin, but Martin calls Sam when he gets out? Sam and Martin had no interactions at all in that episode.
Oh, well. It looks like a good episode. I’ll be interested to see how Loflin does on his own. I liked Dabb’s solo a lot.[/quote]
My thoughts on Sam going back to Amelia are: it’s not possible. Don is back in the picture thus I think this is the reason Sam left in the middle of the night.
Then on Sam, Dean, Martin scenario, I think Martin contacted Garth, got Sam’s number after finding out that Dean was MIA and that is why he called Sam instead of Dean.
These eps sure do get the brainwaves bouncing all over the place. 😐
I think its gonna get ugly and we’re all gonna be sad. Personally I like Benny and I’m all for just once having a monster we can take at face value, with no ulterior motives. Benny says he doesn’t drink human blood and I for one believe him. Lets hope they’re not gonna have him fall off the wagon, go slurping through the countryside, therefore having to have one of the boys kill him.
As far as Martin goes, I’m glad to see him back but I agree with the others… I don’t think his elevator goes all the way to the top floor yet. He’s out of practice, and probably like most hunters, has never met a vampire who didn’t kill humans. He might just be a shoot first ask questions later kinda guy and if so Benny might not stand a chance.
Best case scenario, every one walks away except the bad vampire (who isn’t Benny) and we all live happily after.
Awww who am I kidding…Its Supernatural, there is never a happy ending.
I am predicting angst, tears, sadness, and just a totally rotten gut ache when this episode is over. What does it say about me that I can’t wait and am excited for that? ! I just have to keep telling myself that down the line there will be forgiveness and brighter days, no matter what happens this week. Please let it be so.
Boy do I agree with you winmomwannabe. Many of us thrive on the ” angst, tears, sadness”. It’s like emotional crack. Here’s to forgivness and brighter days 🙂
[quote]forgiveness and brighter days, no matter what happens this week. [/quote]
Yes….to this!
[quote]I said somewhere…or maybe I just thought it, I can’t even tell anymore…that these two appear to be walking on eggshells around each other. Like they both know it’s all there, all the crap, simmering under the surface, but neither wants to explore it or explode it.[/quote]
I say just stuff them in a small empty room with pads on the walls and strip off their weapons. Either they have a fight or they have a talk in there. Or a fight then talk. At least we get something. This whole tension is giving me an ulcer.
[quote]
I say just stuff them in a small empty room with pads on the walls and strip off their weapons. Either they have a fight or they have a talk in there. Or a fight then talk. [/quote]
I’d pay to watch that! Especially if they stripped of those extra shirts! 😳 And maybe they’d really clear the air this time!
[quote][quote]
I say just stuff them in a small empty room with pads on the walls and strip off their weapons. Either they have a fight or they have a talk in there. Or a fight then talk. [/quote]
I’d pay to watch that! Especially if they stripped of those extra shirts! 😳 And maybe they’d really clear the air this time!
[/quote]
Is it bad that the only thing I saw for a while was “strip”?
But yes. Jam them in a room and make them fight…like men in tights 😀
I do like the idea of letting Sam and Dean have at it in a little room somewhere. Hee, I think we may have to start a whole new thread soon, just for discussing the various situations in which we’d like to see Sam and Dean semi-clothed…
[quote] Hee, I think we may have to start a whole new thread soon, just for discussing the various situations in which we’d like to see Sam and Dean semi-clothed…[/quote]
That ‘ll be an awesome idea to spend the mid season hellatus. 🙂
I like this idea…an objectification thread…leave it with me!
As long as they don’t kill off Benny. I’m good with anything else. It’s the 5 weeks that might kill ME!!
If Dean has to make a hard decision, it sounds like Sam is going to make him choose. I hope not.
I don’t like guessing. I’m not very good at it where this show is concerned. I can give you plot & dialog on most others;but never this show. Probably one of the many, MANY, reasons it’s been my favorite for all these years.
DEAN HAS TO MAKE A HARD DECISION… Between a Cherry pie and Apple pie hmmmm You’re right Dean, they’re both delicious. Yummmm
Yes! This will be the hard decision! Whew. I feel better already!
maybe Benny is Amelia’s husband! Hahahaha… no!
I like this idea a lot. It is new! 😀 Benny may only think he has been in purgatory for 50 years!
[quote] Hee, I think we may have to start a whole new thread soon, just for discussing the various situations in which we’d like to see Sam and Dean semi-clothed…[/quote]
That ‘ll be an awesome idea to spend the mid season hellatus. 🙂
[quote][quote] Hee, I think we may have to start a whole new thread soon, just for discussing the various situations in which we’d like to see Sam and Dean semi-clothed…[/quote]
That ‘ll be an awesome idea to spend the mid season hellatus. :-)[/quote]
We’ll have one up shortly after the midseason finale…keep an eye out!
[quote][quote][quote] Hee, I think we may have to start a whole new thread soon, just for discussing the various situations in which we’d like to see Sam and Dean semi-clothed…[/quote]
That ‘ll be an awesome idea to spend the mid season hellatus. :-)[/quote]
We’ll have one up shortly after the midseason finale…keep an eye out![/quote]
With pictures?
Please, let there be pictures!
It totally is, Darya. It’s been happening a lot around here lately 😉
[quote]I laughed my way through the preview, sweetondean, thanks for that! But then my stomach started aching too. It’s not even a stomach ache, more like its already dropped out, and we haven’t even watched the episode yet. I’m going to be a blubbery mess on the carpet by the end of this, be assured. I’m feeling so fluttery, I can’t even study. (And I should be studying. I should. Damn University that put an exam on a Winchester Wednesday.)
I agree with all your “not wants” a million times. Please, please don’t make Sam walk away again. Please don’t make Dean walk away either. Please don’t kill the coolest!vampire!ever! And please don’t kill Martin. In fact- no killing whatsoever would be very nice. Or maybe just a couple of unimportant lopped off vampire-heads….
(I agree with whoever suggested the hard decision is pie. Let it be pie. Pretty please? *whimpers*)
With the TPTB so, so whisper-quiet on the 10th episode…I know this one’s going to be angsty. Possibly with a cliffhanger too. HOW WILL WE SURVIVE THE HELLATUS?[/quote]
Lotsa of chocolate.
And I will busy myself with trying to right a wrong ^^
*mumbles*
It will be ok…
All will be well.
We´ll be alright
*murmur*
And here comes the commercial break:
http://adaminhell.tumblr.com/
Anybody care to help me?
Sorry.. I just couldn´t resist ^^
Of course, there’s no judgement in the shallow pool. Just chocolate and possibly alcoholic beverages
[quote]Of course, there’s no judgement in the shallow pool. Just chocolate and possibly alcoholic beverages[/quote]
Did someone just mention alcoholic beverages and chocolate in the same sentence? Count me in. Between this up and coming cliff hanger and then the gruesome 5 weeks of waiting for the next new ep alcohol will most definitely be invovled. 😆
Guilty! 😉
[quote]Maybe we should all do a twitter hop like the book bloggers do, Fluffy. Decide on a hashtag, put up a linky list and ask everyone interested to put in their twitter names, then we follow and RT away to glory.[/quote]
can you drop me an Email at adaminhell@yahoo.de please?
Pretty please?
I´m old school and kinda clueless 😀
Here’s another inconsistency I just caught. Garth is surprised to find out Sam and Dean are not MIA when they meet up in “Southern Comfort” but Martin knows how to reach out to Sam. Garth is in touch with a bunch of hunters but doesn’t know what Martin knows. How does Martin have Sam’s phone number after all this time?
Sam and Dean met with Garth accidentally, Garth has their contact numbers. Everyone likes and / or trusts Garth, they would go to him to get information. Martin gets Sam’s phone-number.
I am totally in favor of a Perils of Pauline cliffhanger. Dean gets captured by (erm) Meg (doesn’t matter really) and Sam and Benny (and Cas and Martin … yeah, might have to be more of an evil overlord than Meg is – ok, the Alpha vamp) are going to have to put aside their differences and go rescue him.
I could live with that.
Oh yes, I like that idea. Dean in peril, and everyone to the rescue! 😛
Sure….
Besides, when you get to see one of the Winchesters tied up…. Makes for good TV. Right? 😉
I’ll gladly take a dip in the shallow pool! 😀 When Sweetondean mentioned Dean dropping hin pants on “Sam Interrupted”, that’s all I could think about! Mmmmmm, pudding. 😉
Stay tuned fellow shallow pool goers, we’ll have a fun Lets Discuss thread up for us to all take a dip in pretty soon! It’s in my hands! Objectification…here we come! 😉
Finally get my internet back, and this is the first comment I see.
All is right with my world.
Sorry! (Not Sorry! 😳 )
I’m all stocked up on booze, chocolate, and kleenex. Bring it on! WinchesterWednesday! (Can’t help feeling a bit schizophrenic 😆 😥 )
[quote] But then my stomach started aching too. It’s not even a stomach ache, more like its already dropped out, and we haven’t even watched the episode yet. [/quote]
Exactly. Oh Supernatural. What you do to me!
Migraines and heartattacks and stomach aches. Oh my!
[quote]
I’m going to be a blubbery mess on the carpet by the end of this, be assured. [/quote]
I already am, just thinking about the possibilities that I don’t want to happen… but probably will.
😥
[quote]
With the TPTB so, so whisper-quiet on the 10th episode…I know this one’s going to be angsty. Possibly with a cliffhanger too. HOW WILL WE SURVIVE THE HELLATUS?[/quote]
With chocolate, alcohol, and quite possibly that new S&D semi-clothed thread you’ve all be chatting about….
Honey, I’m home! 😆
I’m awaiting this episode with trepidation. I’m hoping we will not lose Benny, but yes, maybe Martin will be a goner. Either way, it’s going to bring up so many emotions on so many fronts. This show knows which buttons to push going into hellatus. I’m preparing my kleenex, alcohol and chocolate, I fear I will need all three. 😥
I feel like something will happen with Benny that gives him brownie points in Sam’s eyes. Whatever that may be. I do think there is going to be a terrible cliff hanger and just. EFNERJIN This episode is going to be intense. My first thought would have been that Dean would have to choose between Sam or Benny. Killing Benny to save Sam or leaving Sam to help Benny. Something of that sort, but the answer is too obvious and I don’t think they would go for that.
I don’t want Benny to die either, man. But someone has to. : It’s Supernatural. I would be surprised otherwise. Haha
Maybe no one is going to die. Maybe that’ s just the leftover angst from S7 where everyone did seem to die. I sure wish Sera Gamble hadn’t killed Bobby. He would have straightened the brothers out by now. Dean always listened to Bobby when no one else could get through to him.
That is true, too. I think they could really make people double take if they decided to go a whole different route. It would be a big turn around for the way the episode is being promoted and perhaps that’s the point after all. Haha.
And yeah I agree. Bobby was a major character. I do think they did him some justice, though, the way they took him out. It was really good and emotional with the episode Death’s Door and then when he returned as a spirit. It was an epic send off and they would have to do something really spectacular to bring him back because I was at terms with it all because it was such a good ending for him. Though he would help with these two greatly at this point in time.
Hi Izanamii, I think they may go for writer symmetry and mimic Sam’s Ruby road. Choosing a monster over his brother. That would make Dean eat his words. I feel the cliffhanger is going to bring the brothers to crisis point. Hopefully Sam gets to tell Dean what he thinks (like Dean did to Sam). Oh my word I am preparing for angst
The description says
When Martin decides to take things into his own hands, things get messy and Dean is forced to make a very hard decision.
I think Dean might have to kill Martin, or he’ll have to do something. What if he has to risk his life for Benny’s? That would be one heck of a cliff hanger, leaving Dean to die or injured (obviously our Dean can’t die for good, we still need him!).
And I definitely don’t think Benny is the culprit of the attacks. When, in Supernatural history, has the MOTW been the first person they suspect? Not often. Plus, Benny is supposed to be a major character, I don’t see the writers tossing him out like a pile of old clothing.
I am going to reserve my judgement for Sam until the final episode of the season. At least then I will have all the dteails of his past year and why he is the way he is this season.
Hmm. Maybe Dean will raise his hand against Martin to defend Benny but not kill him, and Sam has to decide which side to take. Even if he stands with Dean, it makes for tension, because it would make the brothers outcasts in the hunter community all over again.
They say that Dean is forced to make a difficult decision. They only difficult decision he can make is to leave either Sam or Benny. My money is on Sam. I think they only cliffhanger that will REALLY fry fans brains is if Dean takes Benny’s side. That is what I predict.
As much as I don’t want this to be true, I agree with you Kaz1. I think it will come down to a choice between Benny and Sam, and Dean will choose Benny. It plays into the perception concept pretty well. Deans perception of Sam is at an all time low. If he chooses Benny, it could support the fact that ep 10-11 are Samcentric, followed by a big emotional breakthru in ep13. I suppose this could happen in reverse too with Sam doing the leaving, but IMO it is SAMs character that could use some understanding and insight.
[quote] I think it will come down to a choice between Benny and Sam, and Dean will choose Benny. It plays into the perception concept pretty well. Deans perception of Sam is at an all time low. If he chooses Benny, it could support the fact that ep 10-11 are Samcentric, followed by a big emotional breakthru in ep13. I suppose this could happen in reverse too with Sam doing the leaving, but IMO it is SAMs character that could use some understanding and insight.[/quote]
I agree…I think this is where we’re headed. Owies. I also agree, we need more insight into Sam and if this gets us there, so be it. Bring on 8.13 though, like seriously…I need that emotional breakthrough like air about now!
Thanks sweetondean for another great preview. I love that you included the promo videos. I had not found the one with Martin in it yet so that was great to see the little spoiler.
I am with you on the “not want” list. None of those are acceptable endings but it’s a given that we are not going to like the cliff hanger.
I had forgotten about the Alpha. I still think Benny is the one trying to stop another vamp from the killing and Martin in his crazy mixed up mind, just saw it totally wrong. One can hope, I sure don’t want our new vamp to go away.
I think we will see more angst between the boys and hopefully they will unload a bunch more of that baggage they both keep carrying around with them.
Only 24 hours to go and we’ll be getting our answers. Man time travel sure would be handy right about now. 🙂
Loved, as usual, your review. Also, loved reading all the comments, and, not as usual, decided o join in! “Only 24 hrs to go and we’ll be getting our answers.” Haha, if only!!!! Also something no one mentioned are the angels. I’m sure they will be involved big time when we finally get some answers. Remember Benny’s comment while in Purgatory about “they don’t lie to me” etc, who are they? Reading everyone’s comments was just plain FUN!! Thank you!! So much drama and unpleasantness elsewhere……… Also, count me in with the objectifying thread. Yummy.
Hey jily4!
Glad you decided to join in!
I seriously hope we get SOME answers tonight… just enough to have us salivating for more the entire hellatus!
(or would that more accurately be drooling? Yay for objectifying thread! I might just survive the break! 😉 )
Love to see you commenting Jily! 🙂
Has anyone mentioned that they think Chuck may be God.
8 1/2 hours to go. I am officially a wreck. Seriously. 😡
The most redeemable situation I could see coming out of this is – Dean confronts Benny, and finds out he’s innocent. Martin comes along and tries to kill both Benny and Dean, i.e. “things get messy.” Meanwhile, Sam also discovers the truth while approaching the hunt from a different angle, and races off to meet his brother/save Benny. Dean knows Benny will kill for him with no remorse, so he incapacitates the vampire to keep him away while he tries to reason with Martin. Martin goes nuts on Dean. When Sam arrives on scene, he meets Benny first, and together, they go off to save Dean.
SOOOO many problems with that scenario, but it’s the only way I can think of a happy ending. I don’t want Benny dead. He can turn out to be evil, but I don’t want him dead. I could give two shakes of rat’s behind about Martin, but think it would be poor storyline to kill him off.
Regarding the brothers – this isn’t about right or wrong. Sam has a right to distrust Benny and to feel the way he does about his and Dean’s relationship. Dean has an equal right to trust Benny after what he’s been through. I think it’s just a matter of finding out the truth about Benny and undoubtably bringing other issues to the surface.
I can’t wait for tonight!
Me too! I have about had it with all this sourness! I want some entertaining drama with a cliffhanger if necessary but something that is exciting – not stressful! Relationship drama can be exciting too!
Relationship drama is gooood. Hurty, but gooood.
I can deal with hurty! I love it! But the ‘I am going to leave you and curl up with my own pain stuff’ makes me sad 😥
And there is no need for it to go that way this time! Drama! Want that instead!
[quote]I can deal with hurty! I love it! But the ‘I am going to leave you and curl up with my own pain stuff’ makes me sad 😥
And there is no need for it to go that way this time! Drama! Want that instead![/quote]
No I don’t want it either. That hurts too much…there’s good hurt and then there’s the walking away hurt. That’s just too painful. Not want.
Are we going to depress each other? 🙂 Or should we regress to shallow?
Dean has very very green eyes. Sam is so puppydog cute.
I just wanted to wish everyone luck for the big schbang!!
It’ll be about 13 hours until I get to see it. Stupid work getting in the way of the angst and pain!
I feel sick to my stomach….is this normal behaviour for a grown woman? To feel sick to the stomach about the possible outcome of an episode of a TV show?
I’m praying to Chuck that my boy doesn’t do what I think he’s going to do and make that choice I so don’t want him to make.
I have a bad feeling about this.
Though maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised….HAHAHAHAHA! See now I’m just getting hysterical!
Stay strong people…stay strong and remember we love them both, even when they rip out our hearts out and stomp all over them!
*curls up and chants: it’s just a show, it’s just a show, it’s just a show*
😥
[quote]I just wanted to wish everyone luck for the big schbang!!
It’ll be about 13 hours until I get to see it. Stupid work getting in the way of the angst and pain!
[/quote]
AHHHH! I might have to shoot myself if I had to wait that long. 😮 Another 4or5 hours might just kill me.
I’m so sorry, sweetondean! Your boss needs to get his/her priorities straight. SPN comes first. Always.
[quote]
I feel sick to my stomach….is this normal behaviour for a grown woman? To feel sick to the stomach about the possible outcome of an episode of a TV show?
I’m praying to Chuck that my boy doesn’t do what I think he’s going to do and make that choice I so don’t want him to make.
[/quote]
NONONONO…. Don’t want that! LOL.
Drama! Pain! Tears!
Oh Chuck, I’m sick. (This MUST be normal behaviour, right? We can’t ALL be insane. Or can we? :-* )
[quote]
Stay strong people…stay strong and remember we love them both, even when they rip out our hearts out and stomp all over them!
*curls up and chants: it’s just a show, it’s just a show, it’s just a show*
:cry:[/quote]
*whispering* Can we please all agree that they’re both wonderful and heroic and need each other and equally important to the show and they’ll get back there eventually (right, Carver), even if one of them walks (don’t do it!)….* insert powerful Sam-puppy-eyes look here * – and then we can have a nice long dip in the shallow pool to survive until January? 😳 😀
Pretty please with ice cream and chocolate on it? Ah he-l. Please with loads and loads of booze if that’s what it takes! 😆
[quote]*whispering* Can we please all agree that they’re both wonderful and heroic and need each other and equally important to the show and they’ll get back there eventually (right, Carver), even if one of them walks (don’t do it!)….* insert powerful Sam-puppy-eyes look here * [/quote]
Yes! We can agree on that! Most whole heartedly! 🙄 Can we also agree that, regardless of what they say to each other in anger or how it may sometimes look, that they still love each other to pieces? *insert one perfect tear here* 😥
😆
Amen to that, sisters!! 🙂
Heading to bed now.
Gosh, I hope I’ll be able to sleep…
Going to wake up to Spn Thursday 🙂
Can someone put me out of my misery and tell me what happened. Who did Dean choose? Or Kill? or reject? The wait is killing me
It’s complicated.
Benny was not the vampire killing people. Sam and Martin aren’t convinced so they go after Benny. Dean warns Benny. Sam gets an “I need you come quick” message from Amelia. Benny and Dean kill the killer vampire. Martin stalks Benny’s granddaughter so he can kill Benny. Benny kills Martin and runs. Sam sees Amelia with happy with her husband. He realizes that DEAN faked Amelia’s call and sent him on a wild goose chase to save Benny. Dean implies that Benny is dead and that Martin was a casualty that deserved to die. It looks like Dean is going to let Benny go free. Sam is devastated. Oh, and early on Dean told Sam once again that Benny never let him down, with the implied not like SOME people named Sam.
Percy, what did you think of this episode?
Can you believe Sam was thrown under the bus for this?!?!?!? His character was destroyed and written OOC for this?!?!?! I’m honestly confused.
I HATED it. They finally threw Sam under the bus then backed up over him. Dean is perfect. He can tell a good monster from a mile away. Dean is perfectly right to lie to Sam, because Sam is a horrible terrible person (according to the writers). Sam has been told he is untrustworthy and unlovable. Dean, the perfect doesn’t trust him and Amelia decides that not dead Don is better than Sam.
The writers began by trashing Sam by having him not looking for Dean. I kept waiting for an explanation of what happened, but instead we got Sam the coward who ran. Now we have Sam the stupid who chose the wrong person to watch Benny, Sam the gullible who Dean can fool easily AND be perfectly right to disrespect because Sam is worthless according to the writers.
I’ve had a glass or two of wine and I’m not being reasonable, but I am devastated. The brotherhood is officially dead and Sam has been declared unworthy. Benny can go be Dean’s better brother. The show has no use for Sam.
Sorry, I am wrecked right now. Maybe later I will calm down, but NINE episodes with no sympathy or POV for Sam is really painful.
Percy, I’m there w/you re: Sam. I know I shouldn’t be shocked but I just can’t believe how he’s been assassinated and why. Sam didn’t look for Dean so THIS horribly pointless, boring story w/Amelia could play out?!?!?! Really?!?!
I wish I could ask Carver why Sam was thrown under a bus for this utterly pointless arc. Why was his character ruined for this arc?
Not only does Dean basically have no faith or trust in Sam, but they also had Sam acting like a jerk in this episode. Did he really need to leave Martin stranded in the middle of nowhere w/no transportation? That really rubbed me in the wrong way. It was a real “jerk” move. Who does that? That bothered me.
I was happy Martin didn’t kill Benny though b/c I wasn’t looking forward to Dean blaming Sam for his “brother” dying.
We disagree on that. I think Sam was completely totally blamed by this. When the whole Amy mess came up, Sam had to GROVEL to Dean and admit that SAM was too close and Dean was right. Now, Dean is going to hold Sam responsible for EVERY SINGLE KILL Benny makes, because if Sam had just stopped thinking for himself, then Benny would have stayed the perfect, wonderful vegetarian vampire that Dean loves and protects. Sam will now have to GROVEL again about what a horrible judge of character HE is while Dean is MR. Perfect.
Sure, what Dean did was cruel and hurtful, but we were explicitly told that Sam has LET DEAN DOWN and Benny never has, except when Sam forced the situation so Sam deserves every bit of pain that Dean gave him. Hey how can Sam possibly be allowed to think he has any right to think, want or need anything that Dean doesn’t.
Yes, I’m furious and not rational, but this was so much worse than I ever imagined. And yes, I’m sure Sam will end up apologizing to Dean for FORCING Dean to trick him about Amelia.
Did Sam leave Martin to hunt alone without informing him? Martin died,I hope they don’t blame Sam for this..Oh! wait who am i kidding…
He sure did. In fact, he just up and left Martin stranded in the woods in the middle of nowhere. Not one of Sammy’s finest moments if you ask me.
That was completely unnecessary. They could have returned to the motel or went to a restuarant when Sam got Amelia’s message, and then Sam could have left. I just thought it was a really jerky thing to have Sam do, but I’m not sure Carver cares too much how “jerky” Sam comes off this year.
would it still been Sam’s fault if he told Martin he was taking off and Martin still went after Benny and got killed? Because Martin who happens to be a hunter would have still gone after Benny and it still would have ended the same.
[quote]would it still been Sam’s fault if he told Martin he was taking off and Martin still went after Benny and got killed? [/quote]No.But did it happen like that.
[quote]It’s complicated.
Benny was not the vampire killing people. Sam and Martin aren’t convinced so they go after Benny. Dean warns Benny. Sam gets an “I need you come quick” message from Amelia. Benny and Dean kill the killer vampire. Martin stalks Benny’s granddaughter so he can kill Benny. Benny kills Martin and runs. Sam sees Amelia with happy with her husband. He realizes that DEAN faked Amelia’s call and sent him on a wild goose chase to save Benny. Dean implies that Benny is dead and that Martin was a casualty that deserved to die. It looks like Dean is going to let Benny go free. Sam is devastated. Oh, and early on Dean told Sam once again that Benny never let him down, with the implied not like SOME people named Sam.[/quote]
OH MY WORD Percysowner. I have to have a scotch (now where is Bobby’s flask). It’s 7:15 in CT and I am reading your review (*i need to watch this ep soooo badly hint hint*) . I think that Dean is going to eat lots of pie in future eps not matter what the flavour its GOING to have lots of humble. If they get this right in the coming eps then this is going to be one helluva season. Just PLEASE let us see Sam in a good light. I absolutely love the guy and now I am cross with Dean but I am not sure why coz I HAVEN’T SEEN THE EP percy grrr
Sure . . . spoilers ahead . . . .
Sam asked Martin to trail Benny. Sam tells Dean. They both go to Martin for the intel. Martin tells them how he followed Benny (who goes by Roy) the night before and fell across a dead body. Dean asks for time to go and talk to Benny. He talks to Benny and learns that some other vamp is trying to create a nest, and since Benny refused to join him, he left two dead bodies around so Benny would have to leave town I guess. Benny didn’t want to leave town b/c his great grand-daughter was there. I’m positive it was the same actress who drowned her daughter in that episode w/Lisa & Ben in the 3rd season.
Meanwhile, Sam has (pointless) FBs about Amelia. Basically, Sam and Amelia decided to give their relationship a chance. Don saw Sam at the bar and talked to him man-to-man. Sam decided to leave Amelia the next day. It was not the same scene as in the first episode.
Dean tells Sam and Benny about Desmond, the other vamp, but they refuse to believe him. Martin knocks Dean out. They handcuff Dean and go after Benny. Benny had already moved on b/c Dean called and warned him. Sam got a text message from Amelia asking for help so like the JERK he has been portrayed as this year, he took off and left Martin in the woods.
Dean and Benny kill the vamp. Dean tells Benny to go deep underground b/c other hunters will be looking for him. Dean leaves. He calls Martin who is walking the streets and warns Martin against going after Benny. Martin acts real cool b/c he’s headed to the great grand-daughter. He gets there. He calls Benny. Benny comes back. Martin is holding a knife to the GGD’s neck. He cuts it b/c he wants Benny to vamp out in front of her. He tells her that Benny is her GGF. Benny asks Martin want he wants. Martin says Benny’s head. Benny put his head on a plate. Scene cuts.
The GGD calls Dean. Dean comes and sees that Benny killed Martin. Sam goes to Amelia’s and sees her on the couch w/her husband watching tv and enjoying themselves. He leaves. He goes to a bar, checks his phone, and then calls a number. It’s Dean who picks up. Dean sent Sam a fake Amelia message. Sam asks how things went and if there were casualities. Dean says Martin. Sam is upset and says, “Not Benny?” Dean says Martin had it coming and that if Sam will listen to him, he’ll explain everything. Sam hangs up. Pays. Turns around and sees Amelia. She’s like, “I knew that was you.”
That’s it.
I have not watched the episode.Did Sam leave without telling Martin?…Wow if he did I am going to be pissed at the writers.They don’t believe about Desmond why? Really now that Sam does not believe that a monster is good he turns out harmless.Well done writers,well done.
Sam left Martin, because DEAN panicked him. Sent him on a wild goose chase.
If it was anyone’s fault. It’s Deans.
But WHY must it always be down to someone at fault? They both had their motives, and neither is an angel here. (Even the angel in this show gets to screw up!)
No, only SAM gets to screw up. Cas gets insta-forgiveness. Dean is perfectly right about Benny. Sam is told he is untrustworthy AND unlovable. Dean=perfect, Sam=wrong.
Fine percy.
This time we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I did NOT see it that way at all.
[quote]But WHY must it always be down to someone at fault? [/quote]
I’d love to have that questioned answered.
I agree with everything you said, st50. Sam was right to leave Martin (whom he believed to be a competent hunter) because he thought Amelia – an innocent – was in danger. Dean KNEW he would do this. But nobody’s hands are clean in any of this, each decision has its consequences, and each effect has it’s cause.
Btw – the only person who is responsible for Martin’s death is Martin. He was warned many times about Benny. He made the decision to risk an innocent to provoke the vampire. I have little sympathy for the man.
Didn’t someone even say that this episode – something like, “we all make our own choices?” Maybe I’m thinking of something else.
Maybe…but why did Sam leave martin without a word? I have not watched the episode so correct me if what i have gleaned from the comments are wrong.When you hunt with someone (even normal hunting) You have a responsibility towards the people you hunt with.That is my point.
You would be right! I agree w/you. Sam left w/o saying anything to Martin. That was wrong, IMO.
oh Dean definately knew Sam would take off when he sent that text. He did it to protect Benny because he knew Sam would kill Benny given the opertunity.
You know, I’ve made a bet before Southern Comfort aired that one of these episode, we’ll have Sam gets a call from Amelia and leaves Dean in the middle of a hunt.
Guess I’m right, only the detail is different.
[quote]Sam left Martin, because DEAN panicked him. Sent him on a wild goose chase.[/quote]
Why can’t we have Sam panicked and running around in a wild goose chase when Dean disappeared from Roman’s lab?
I AM JEALOUS!!! What’s so important about Amelia compared to Dean? The writers definitely don’t care of the brother bond anymore.
Now that Sam meet Amelia again, I don’t really care if he has a triangle relationship with her. The writers certainly loves this harlequin drama.
Dean certainly paired better with the gold hearted vamp Benny. They’ll just as soon drive along in the Impala and starting Supernatural spin off Vamp style.
It is vitally important to prove to us that Sam is not worth caring about. That he is a bad brother, a bad person, a jealous human being who is willing to destroy anything Dean loves and we should all hate him so Dean can make Benny and Cas his new better brothers and Sam can be the ultimate evil. Heck, he got Jess killed, murdered Madison because he didn’t look into the 4th generation werewolf clause and now is totally and utterly responsible for any evil actions Benny takes. Dean is a complete innocent who is absolutely right that Sam is a worthless piece of crap. Even Amelia dumped him in 2 days after Don returnes.
percysowner,
That is quite possibly the most morbid, negatively-skewed, abusive opinion of Sam I’ve ever read.
You guys talk about the show discrediting Sam’s character, but more than anything THIS kind of stuff reads to me as an assassination of Sam’s character.
More than that, I find it reprehensible to suggest that the show would write something with such a viewpoint. You are putting motives and intentions on the writers of this show that are not validated by reasonable evidence, just because you don’t like the story they are telling or the way they are telling it.
Finally, the language you use to vent your frustrations is extremely inflammatory, sarcastic, and negative. Suggesting that Dean is totally innocent and good and Sam is “a worthless piece of crap” is inherently divisive, distorted….and entirely false.
It is just my opinion, and you are entitled to yours, but I find this to be very disturbing and disheartening. And this is the last I am going to comment on the issue.
Wow, you are really angry. I can’t say I am really shocked. I knew this was going to happen as I was watching the episode. Thinking the people who are unhappy are going to go ballastic. I think you went a bit off the rails in this comment though. I think both Sam and Dean came off alternately good and jerky in this episode. I have to agree with lala that Sam leaving Martin alone without any explanation was rude! For all he knew someone he loves was in immediate peril so…I don’t know? Dean was a jerk for using that love to manipulate Sam via text. I do remember Dean (with some pride, I think) mentioning twice not to underestimate his brother. That might have been the only way to sideline Sam so he could investigate further. Jerky but effective. Dean as much as admits he has trust issues with Sam. No big shocker there. That does not IMO validate the whole Spectre rant. Trust and love are two separate issues. I thought Sam was quite reasonable in his response to Dean’s reasonable request to give him some time. Both very reasonable. Things went very wrong as will happen on this show. The whole blame is not on Sam . Or Dean. I was hoping something would happen to give you all (you know who you are) reasons for hanging in. I’m still invested and want to see how it plays out and I thought it was a really good hour of TV.
Okay percysowner, as I’m moderating comments here I’m trying to respect your opinion, and let you get your say in a few times, but enough of this Sam vs. Dean nonsense. Give it up. Dean is not a saint, neither is Sam. The writers hardly made Dean look sympathetic last night. He really hurt Sam. Of course Sam wasn’t in the right either. If you’re angry that’s okay, but try making comments that are more constructive. Thank you.
I apologize. I’ll reign it in.
Yes, he did! It was a real JERK move on Sam’s part. He and Martin are in the woods. Sam gets Amelia’s text, hops in the car, and leaves. Martin is left shouting, “Sam! Sam! Where are you going? Come back.” Then, he’s left to walk all the way back to civilization!
Plus, Sam basically lured him into this hunt, left him, and got him killed. It was just more character assassination for our Sammy.
Do you realize how FAR and LONG a drive it is between Louisiana and Texas? IT’S HOURS! Depending on where these towns actually are (I haven’t looked at a map) it could take DAYS.
Amelia’s text sounded panicked, and asked Sam to come fast.
I don’t think he thought for a second that the hardship of Martin walking a few miles back in to town held a candle to the danger Amelia must’ve been in to text an EX boyfriend like that.
I think you are really looking for ways to twist this into Sam is being assassinated.
And I’m done commenting.
Please don’t assume to know how I think or what I’m feeling. I am not looking for ways to [i]twist [/i] anything.
I simply have a difference of opinion than you. You think it was fine for Sam to leave w/o a word. I don’t. That’s all. I don’t care that it was a panicked text . It was still a JERK move, IMO.
“Martin. An emergency came up. I have to go” would have been the very LEAST Sam could have done. Just hopping in the car and leaving w/o a word is beyond RUDE.
Yeah st50 I thought about the distance too. I actually DID look it up 😳 hehe, cause I like research and stuff, and it would take Sam a minimum of 10 hours from the most western parts of LA to get to Kermit, TX and probably more like 12-14 hours. TPTB were playing a little fast and loose with geography on this one.
I see it clearly now – there are some (the same people every time) who will insist that Sam’s character is being assassinated and that he is wrong and or being wronged no matter what is clearly being shown onscreen. It’s almost laughable – except it’s really kinda sad. SMH.
[quote]I see it clearly now[/quote]That’s what you think….It’s almost laughable-except it’s really kinda sad.
I did not see that coming.
Best Episode of the Season!
WOW! This episode did not go as I was expecting in a lot of ways; but it was good in many ways too. I am relieved that Sam was not made out to be totally wrong and a bad brother in this situation. He was somewhat wrong in that he was incorrect about Benny. And I am glad that Benny was innocent of the killings. But Dean…. my, my, my you ARE walking a fine line aren’t you? I can’t believe he used Sam’s feelings for Amelia against him…. man, that’s just cold and quite frankly resulted in Martin’s death (not that Martin didn’t have it coming). And he has now implied pretty clearly, stone cold sober, that he does not trust Sam, and that he is more sure of Benny, whom he has known for one year. I guess everything he said under the influence of the Civil War ghost was true after all. So, Sam was wrong about Benny, but Dean is wrong about Sam. Those two really need to talk!
I just loved that. It was great!
I did not see it as Sam being wrong in the slightest.
He allowed Dean some time to talk to Benny. He didn’t have any proof that Benny should be trusted, but he let Dean have his way.
Dean was in the wrong for playing with Sam’s emotions about Amelia, when he doesn’t even know that much about it – just how did they break up? What state was that relationship in? What pain did he cause Sam just to remove him from the situation?
Of course Sam has been in the wrong before, but this time, it’s Dean.
Sam said he had Martin on a short leash, but with Dean sending him off to “save Amelia”, that left Martin on his own, and ended up resulting in Benny vamping out and Martin getting killed.
I do not see it as Sam being thrown under a bus this time!
(And Sam did not turn into a home-wrecker, as some of you feared – he left, telling Amelia to work it out with Don… now Dean may have some of the blame for messing up that situation, since he sent Sam back to where they ran into each other again).
Sorry, but Sam and Dean have both been placed in the wrong many times. I don’t think it is all one brother or the other. There are a lot of shades of grey.
I agree I thought they both made the best move that they could with the information that they had each time.
I would even include setting Martin on to watch Benny – from Sam’s point of view that is safer than having him go after someone they don’t know for sure is a supernatural being.
Dean is NEVER wrong. Dean sells his soul, only he suffers, Sam’s grief is shown to be completely unimportant and when Dean comes back we see his suffering, not Sam’s. Sam believes in a monster, she is totally manipulating him. Dean believes in a monster and he is practically Jesus, until the hunter that Sam STUPIDLY trusts turns out to be a psycho. Dean, of course, sees Martin as a psycho the second he lays eyes on him. Sam is just dumb. Sam trusts the mother who saved his life and killed ONLY to save her son, and then he has to GROVEL to admit that Dean was right to kill her. Benny kills psycho Martin and we are supposed to feel sorry for Benny and Dean and BLAME Sam for DARING to trust his own judgement.
Dean cruelly and with Malice aforethought sends Sam on a wild goose chase to discover that Amelia never really loved him, so what, Sam betrayed Dean so he deserves every single painful moment. AND Dean gets to tell Sam that he is a failure as a brother and a person and that Benny has never, ever betrayed him unlike Sam the unworthy.
I get it. In Kripke’s 5 year plan, Sam was supposed to be the big evil that Dean would have to kill. He was then supposed to realize that Sam was evil from before he was born and go skipping off into the sunset realizing that he had wasted his life loving an diseased creature that deserved no love, no compassion and was totally and completely unsalvageable. Carver has decided to return to the theme. Sam is evil, Dean is good. Sam should never ever be loved by anyone.
I GET IT and it destroys the show I loved.
With all due respect, and I do respect you, sometimes you have valid points. Right now you seemed to have lost all your objectivity. Carver has returned to the theme that Dean has wasted his life loving a diseased creature that deserves no love. REALLY persysowner? You can’t actually believe that, no matter how disappointed you are. I realize you are venting but come on.
I agree, I have no objectivity. But as of now, all Carver has given us on Sam is that he ran like a coward when Dean disappeared (and that is what Sam called it). When Dean came back he didn’t act happy. He called the wrong person to watch Benny and Benny was forced to kill because Sam was stupid. As happens so many times, Sam’s feelings are hidden while Dean gets his out to the world. We don’t see Sam having a breakdown after Dean disappeared and it’s reaching the point where who cares, it’s too late. He found something with Amelia, but was willing to ditch that at the drop of a hat, he didn’t fight for her, which is admirable, but makes his “I found something” seem not real or important.
I have just seen nine episodes of the suffering of Dean where Sam has been called unworthy, less than Benny and there is no counterbalance. The show wants me to hate Sam. Heck they are practically hitting me over the head with just how awful Sam is and that Dean is a saint to even want to associate with him.
So, you are right, no objectivity here. Sorry, I’ll try to stay out of the conversations. I am truly glad that so many others are enjoying this and think it is a great storyline. I’m not.
I can only speak for myself but I don’t want you out of the conversation. If you have truly given up on the show thats another matter. Maybe you are there, I hope not. I don’t agree with you about how they are presenting Sam. I don’t think they are trying to make you hate Sam but once you start looking for reasons in every nook and cranny you will find them. Maybe I am looking for reasons to love him.
[quote]Maybe I am looking for reasons to love him.[/quote]I can safely say me and percysowner don’t need anymore reasons to love Sam.[quote]once you start looking for reasons in every nook and cranny you will find them.[/quote]Did her comments make you feel she is looking for reasons to hate Sam, I don’t think so.But Dean’s constant berating of Sam is getting to my last nerves.So much that if again he comments Sam for how he has kept the Car when Sam is driving it I am going to shout at the screen.
Sorry anonymous, what I meant is that people are combing for reasons to justify their opinions that they (the show and the writers) hate Sam and are writing him that way on purpose. God knows you guys love Sam.
Was Sam driving the Impala? Doesn’t matter, Dean will always be a brat about his car, that will never change!
[quote]Dean will always be a brat about his car, that will never change![/quote]I have never found it amusing and It will grate everytime.[quote]Was Sam driving the Impala?[/quote]Yes at the beginning of the season and in hellatus.
Maybe people just feel the way they feel about it?
I could say you ignore the bad writing and poor character development so you can always find something positive in the show, but I won’t say that. I don’t know you or why you feel the way you do about the show.
Some of us are just giving our opinions. Do people really think we’re looking for reasons to dislike a show we used to love? Or that we’re looking for reasons to not understand Sam, a character we love?
Lala, yes you could and did just say that! Good. But I am just expressing my opinion about how it looks sometimes. Do you think all the people who are enjoying the season, including the people who do the reviews are all ignoring the “bad writing and poor character development”. I fully admit I might not be as knowledgable as you about such things. But I am in good company in enjoying the season.
No, that was just an example. The quality of the writing is clearly subjective. If you’re enjoying the show, then I would assume you have no problem w/the writing, characterization, etc.
All I’m saying is if I’m not liking the writing, that doesn’t mean I’m twisting anything or looking for reasons to object. It just means I don’t like the writing. That’s all.
And I have absolutely no problem with people disliking the direction of or the writing of the show. It’s when it veers off to ridiculously outrageous comments that are filled with sarcasm, disrespect, and completely outlandish statements that it gets to me. For the record I have no problem with most of your comments and I have addressed the ones I DID have a problem directly with the commenter. So I wasn’t making a blanket statement about all the opposing views, just a few in fact. Thats all.
Thanks for putting that forward. While I really dislike the direction of Sam’s s/ so far, I honestly can’t say that I have a problem with the writing. The fact that I don’t like it, doesn’t make the writing ‘bad’!
If you mean in this episode, Sam wasn’t. Dean was driving the Impala, so Sam stole a car, possibly Martin’s. As anonymousN says Sam only drove the car when Dean was gone.
[quote]Sam’s feelings are hidden while Dean gets his out to the world.[/quote]This has been my problem from s04.
I only meant Sam was wrong in his thinking that Benny was the one doing the killings. Wanting to hunt down Benny? No, he’s wasn’t wrong… that’s what hunters do.
I loved this episode. Loved it. It made my heart beat fast and my stomach knot. I would have loved Sam and Dean to have done things differently, to have sat down and talked this out and listened to each other, but where would the drama and mystery be in that? And honestly it is a long road for these two to figure out how to work thru a year apart – a year of drama for both. Poor Sam. He lived with grief and tried to find a place to hide as is so common to grief when not dealt with well.. And Dean spent a year fighting and having to learn to trust a vampire to survive. Love they have but lack of trust thru lack of connection and fear of what the other might do or leave is messing everything up. I feel as sorry for Sam as I do for Dean, which is so nice to have as I usually figure Sam out only thru Dean’s eyes. This year is different. I am pleased they are giving Sam so much more character development and depth this year. Well done. I think we are going to learn more about Sam’s feelings and how he sorts thru his choices, and confronts his grief and anger. Something we have had next to nothing of about Sam. And I am pleased to see it. Dean has always had new layers revealed every year and this is no different, but now he seems a little softer and little more nuanced. I think he was not liking waht he had done to Sam with the text and certainly does not like how they cannot connect at all – which is why his response to Benny about family had a a bitter unsure sound. So well done Jensen. The acting all round was brilliant in this episode. And it looked wonderful. I loved it.
An article on tvline (Supernatural Boss Talks Winter Finale: Polarizing Flashbacks and the Brothers’ Battle Over Benny) said about this episode:”Viewers will also find out the identity of the mysterious figure who was watching Sam leave Amelia’s house in the season premiere.” Did I miss something? Did anyone see this identity revealed? Perhaps I’m misinterpreting the article, but they were discussing the winter finale.
I thought I saw that too. But sometimes they change the episodes right at the last minute. Jensen said at a con that the first episode (8.1) had a scene – that even the Js were expecting to see – that was removed.
Thanks. Just wanted to make sure I didn’t miss something. (The cats get terribly needy when Show is on for some reason. It’s like they “know”)
It’s possible he was talking about another upcoming episode and not this one. I think the next will have some answers for sure.
I noted somewhere else on site that there are people saying that 8.10 was originally intended to be the hiatus ep, but the network’s schedule overrode that. So could be some of Carver’s interviews are looking at 8.9 and 8.10 as sort of a unit, and the reveals may be more in the next ep.
I give this episode an A+++
I was SO blown away, literally captivated the entire time. The buildup to the final scenes and the significantly shocking twists and turns at the end had a true emotional payoff. I loved every second.
The only part that didn’t ring true was when Sam made the throwaway comment saying “I might be going to hell for this” when referring to him wanting to stay with Amelia. He’s BEEN to hell. The deepest parts. So…why would he say that? LOL…the rest of the episode more than made up for that minor dialogue slip, though.
The trust between our guys right now is so brittle and thin…I can’t wait to watch the coming episodes to see how they work on repairing the relationship. I wonder…will it get worse before it gets better? Time will only tell. 🙂
Me too! I am happy to wait until January to see where this is going 😀
Sam was definitely wrong in this episode. He set off a chain of events and then didn’t even stick around to see how it all played out. He got Martin killed. He got Benny back on human blood more likely. He didn’t trust Dean at all.
Sam was tossed under the bus as usual. Remember when Sam asked Dean to trust him about Lenore. Dean was hesitant but he eventually did trust Sam about her.
This “Sam hates Benny” arc doesn’t even make sense. Sam has ZERO reason to doubt Benny. They never put tails on Lenore and her nest of vamps so why does Benny need a tail? This Benny obsession makes Sam seem very petty and jealous. Maybe if the writers bothered to EXPLAIN Sam’s POV, I wouldn’t be so confused about his issues w/Benny. If he’s upset b/c Dean trusts Benny more than he trusts Sam, then that’s an issue he has w/DEAN, not Benny. The show threw out a line about how things go wrong tonight, but it was just one line. What about giving Sam some speech where he discusses how he was always wrong to trust monsters, etc. Write for him! It’s simple.
[quote]Sam has ZERO reason to doubt Benny. [/quote]
Sam has zero reason to doubt a monster who returned mysteriously with his brother from Purgatory, and whom his brother now trusts above any other being – including Sam? This same brother, who used to be so loyal to Sam, and who used to take such a hard black and white line with monsters? Lenore was a LONG LONG time ago, back when Sam and Dean were much younger, much less damaged people. They’ve gone through a TON of changes since then. And Sam, who has learned the hard way from trusting monsters and supernatural beings in that time, has no right to be concerned over this? He said it himself to Dean – “you know how these things usually end for us.” Trusting monsters has always ended up biting them in the backside. Sam has every reason in the world not to trust Benny. And yet, Sam showed great compassion and understanding in this episode by letting Dean go ahead and meet Benny. He was showing his brother trust. Martin screwed it all to heck – that wasn’t Sam’s fault. And it was Dean who sent that text to Sam to throw off his trail. Sam’s trust was met with mistrust. And both boys are hurting now.
[quote]What about giving Sam some speech where he discusses how he was always wrong to trust monsters, etc.[/quote]
He has said these things. In the episode where he learns about Benny he mentions Amy, in the episode before last he admitted to making mistakes, and in this episode he told Dean, “you know how these things end for us.” The writing’s on the wall. And the Amelia FB’s do wonders to explain Sam’s POV in the present, especially in this episode. The interactions Sam has parallel the interactions he’s having with Dean now, and why he’s acting the way he is.
And Sam did not get Martin killed. Sam left someone he believed to be a competent hunter to go save an innocent he thought was in trouble. How is that wrong?
Martin got Martin killed. He was warned about Benny multiple times. What does he do? He risks the life of and terrorizes an innocent woman to provoke Benny. He asked for it.
Just a few episodes ago, Sam was fine w/letting that werewolf girl go, and all they saw was a 30 minute video of her life. He was fine w/letting Amy go last year.
All I’m saying is IF Sam’s opinion of monsters has changed, then Show needs to give him some dialogue explaining this change and not just throwaway lines. That’s all. What about a little speech on Sammy’s evolved thnking re: monsters? That should have occurred back in the Benny intro episode. Having Sam bring up Amy was just to point out Dean’s hypocricy; it had nothing to do w/Amy killing again later in life.
Back to Benny though – Why does Sam suddenly distrust Dean? I thought Sam trusted Dean. We know Dean has NO trust in Sam (thanks Carver), but Sam (I thought) still trusted his big brother. Well Dean trusts Benny. Benny helped Dean survive Purgatory while Sam was having picnics. Benny isn’t even inserting himself in their lives like Ruby was, so the situations aren’t comparable. Plus, it’s not like Sam has never heard for vegetarian vamps before. He has. Vamps and demons are very different in my mind. Unlike demons, I believe a vampire could control its thirst for human blood.
If Dean trusts in Benny, then why shouldn’t Sam? Why does Sam even care about Benny? The guy isn’t even hanging around them. Why does Sam send poor, fragile Martin to trail Benny? Oh . . . I know . . . to create contrived, manufactured drama and tension btw the boys. For me, there IS no other reason for Sam’s Benny issues. None of it rings true to me.
In my mind, Sam most certainly did get Martin killed. Sam knew Martin was fragile, and if he wasn’t aware, that should have been made clear when Martin mentioned the electroshock therapy. He lures this unstable, fragile guy onto a hunt and then ditches him to chase after his obnoxious ex, and the guy ends up dead. If Sam had never sent Martin on Benny’s trail, then Martin wouldn’t have died. That’s just my take on it.
The electroshock comment was sarcastic. And both Sam and Dean took it that way.
Are you sure? Dean seemed to take it seriously, and Sam looked away when Dean looked at him after Martin made the remark.
In any event, Martin was in no shape to be hunting, and Sam knew that. That’s my main point.
Martin was very clearly being sarcastic in that scene, yes.
I don’t tape the episodes anymore so I can’t rewatch. I wasn’t sure what to make of his comment.
It was clearly sarcastic as Martin was rolling his eyes and giving the Dean the stink eye.
I guess it wasn’t [i]clearly [/i]sarcastic if I didn’t catch the sarcasm.
I will admit to not playing close attn though, which is why I said I can’t comment on it any further.
Just to say that you have a point in this, lala2.
This whole things only looks like Sam’s jealousy in the fact that Benny has a clutch on Dean’s heart has reared its ugly head that resulting in him to act callous and careless. Benny jeopardize Sam’s permanent place in Dean’s heart that he used to reserve only for him.
This is little brother’s jealousy. And his jealousy has made him do wrong move resulting in other people’s life.
Several people have said this, but I disagree. Sam had evidence that a vampire was attacking people. Dean talks to Benny and claims Benny isn’t the guy doing it, but he doesn’t call Sam and tell him that he and then go hunt for the other vampire. He doesn’t tell Sam to come join him in the hunt for the other vampire. At this point Dean hasn’t SEEN the other vampire or any hard evidence that there is another vampire. All Sam knows is that Benny SAYS there is another vampire and Dean took his word and didn’t check it out. Sam still has no reason to trust Benny’s word. Benny didn’t want to take on Dean, who he has seen fight in Purgatory. If Benny had been the one killing people he would still say there’s another vampire. Why not? It avoids a fight with Dean if Dean believes him.
Sam believed it was Benny. Dean wasn’t offering to take Sam to find this other vampire or providing any proof that it existed. I think saying Sam was going to kill an innocent being because he was jealous is pretty harsh and if you say that he was going to kill Benny because he was jealous, that is what you are saying. That Sam believed Benny was telling the truth and ignored it because he’s jealous.
[quote]Benny jeopardize Sam’s permanent place in Dean’s heart that he used to reserve only for him. [/quote]
But Sam has done everything he could to get Dean someone else to love. He sent him to Lisa. He didn’t have a problem with Cassie or with Anna. When he got his soul back he encouraged Dean to try again with Lisa because he didn’t know why it didn’t work. The one thing the whole Amelia FB showed is that Sam doesn’t act from jealousy. He let Amelia go and encouraged her to find a way to save her husband.
Yes, it hurt like hell to have Dean say what he did, but Sam didn’t clock Dean and then he got swept up in Martin’s beliefs, but I don’t think it was jealousy, I think it was believing that Dean was taking Benny too much on faith, just like Dean thought Sam was taking Amy too much on faith.
The distrust is coming from a lack of communication on both brothers’ part. Dean doesn’t trust Sam because he can’t understand why Sam did what he did for that year. Sam doesn’t trust Dean because he came back from Purgatory with vampire as a best friend. Both situations seems OOC with what the brothers knew and believed of each other before this all happened. There’s a rift between them.
I think the werewolf girl was different because both brothers saw exactly who she was and what happened to her – but if she kills again, they’ll be on her trail. Just like Sam knew who Amy was and had that faith in her. Now Dean turns around and has this Amy-like situation, and yeah, Sam’s got a right to feel a little resentful that Dean is going back on his own firmly held principles now that roles are reversed. Plus, like he said, he doesn’t know Benny. And he can’t just take Dean’s word for it when Dean has a long and colorful history of lying to him.
I think Sam views Benny as having some sort of hold on his brother that’s going to come back and haunt them. Just like Ruby had a hold on Sam. I agree monsters and demons are different – but on this show, neither kind tends to live that long or remain virtuous.
We’ll have to disagree on the Martin issue. I just find it interesting that Sam is getting all the flack for this “chain of events” despite the fact that both brothers had a role in setting certain things in motion, and there was a whole lot of things neither of them counted on happening.
Martin was fragile? really?! I thought Martin came across as any hunter who views the world in black and white would, not every hunter is as shades of grey as Sam and Dean are. Martin like any other hunter would have thought Vampire=bad=kill. I think a lot of hunters would have used an innocent to lure a vamp in too, I think you give all hunters too much credit when it comes to morality.
In the end it was Martin, the seasoned hunter who risked his own life going after Benny and an unfortunate set of circumstances that got him killed. I doubt hunters go into a hunt not knowing th risks, Martin is no exception.
Martin was out of the hospital and hunting. It’s not like Sam dragged him out of the rubber room to help him out. Martin deemed himself healthy got out of the hospital and was hunting on his own and agreed to help Sam. HE contacted SAM, not the other way around, and Sam certainly did not ‘lure’ anyone. And Sam only ‘ditches’ Martin, because of Dean was manipulating him in the most cruel and callus way, using Sam’s worst fears against him. And from a hunter’s perspective, Martin was doing what most of the other hunters on this show do…use any situation at hand to their advantage to kill the monster, that is the hunter’s job. What Martin did was no different than what that hunter guy Travis in Metamorphosis did, using the Rugaru’s wife to try and kill the monster. No one was blaming Dean for bringing Travis into the hunt that got him killed, so why would you now blame Sam?
But Sam, as usual, is completely 100% WRONG. Dean was right about Martin being the wrong person to contact. Dean was right about Benny. If Benny kills from now on, it will all be Sam’s fault. The show has decided that Sam has no right to dispute Dean under any circumstances. If Sam sees Benny killing someone he must call Dean and ask his opinion on what to do and Dean, Dean can hurt Sam any time he wants because Benny has NEVER betrayed him while Sam has lied to Dean since he got into the car at Stanford. END OF STORY according to Carver.
You’re right, Percy! Sam made all the wrong decisions tonight. It was a bad move to track Benny at all. It was a bad move to put the fragile, recently released Martin on his trail. It was a bad move to just ditch Martin in the woods and go chasing after his ex, which ultimately led to Martin’s death.
I’m not sure what Carver is trying to say w/this story.
Hi, Percy..
Remember what we discussed about before season 8 started? About the pattern regarding Dean and monster?
I think you’re right. They writer choose to make Dean’s always right pattern prevail against the monster’s always kill pattern.
The writers has broken the pattern in which monster always kills.
So, in their mind. Once drinking Azazel’s blood, Sam is prone to make wrong decision and prone to have mental instability and has a tendency for instant panic and unreasonable anxiety. Since he is the true vessel of Lucifer so he everything that Sam do will cause damage.
Since Dean is the righteous man and Michael’s vessel so he will be right no matter how absurd and breaking pattern his action will be.
It’s useless to argue with the writers in this matter because they insist to write it this way. Sam’ll always be portrayed to be the one who make a mess out of everything because he’s Lucifer’s vessel. He can’t help it.
We should be sorry for him, poor baby Sammy, so lost without big brother.
Not to me he’s not.
Edited by Alice – This is a rehashed version of your prior comment (rant). I’ll allow one, but anymore has to go to “Let’s Discuss.”
I don’t know what is going on. I know Kripke talked about his ideal ending being Dean having to kill evil Sam. Perhaps that is where they are heading, Dean the perfect will kill Sam the terrible and find a new family in Benny the wonderful vampire and Castiel the absolved from the get go because we know Naomi is manipulating him angel, Only Sam gets called on his sins. Only Sam is always wrong.
lala2,
I think I know what this about. Sam has no one that needs him, right? Dean’s okay, Benny’s okay, Amelia’s okay. So, what’s Sam purpose in the supernatural universe?
NOTHING. NOT NEEDED BY ANYONE. Even his big brother has found a better brother than him.
My God! The devastation that he’d caused. If Sam just trust Dean about Benny, Martin wouldn’t have died. If Sam just look for Dean, Amelia would have spend her life with Don peacefully. No need for her to be meeting Sam only for temporary.
This looks like Sam’s pathetic attempt to insert his life in other people’s life. To find his meaning to exist in life. He’s trying to find fault in Benny just so he can be of someone who’s done something. Sp, that he can be of someone who has done an important thing and be a help to Dean.
Mark my word, next we’ll get Sam who is suicidal because he finds no importance of his character to exist in supernatural world. He’ll cry salty tears crying .”No body needs me anymore, I’m useless …” Then he’ll jumped off a cliff ala Brick from Heartache
The theme of this season is When The World Doesn’t Need Sam. The writer’s wrong choice in making Sam not looking for Dean resulting in this messy plotline. This looks like them hitting Sam in the head with an anvil for his wrong choice for not looking for his brother in the first place. If you just spent your year looking for your brother this whole mess wouldn’t happen Sam. Now, look at the trouble that you’ve caused.
Kaj, that would actually be interesting so I doubt we’ll see it. Hahaha 🙂
No, I really like your idea/theory. It would be interesting to see that expanded upon.
I don’t agree with you on this one lala2. I think both brother’s showed that they had justified points and non justified points. Martin was an adult, capable of making his own decisions. He got himself killed because he made bad ones. He’s like Gordon in this way. If you want to hold either brother accountable, to me, Dean is more in the wrong here. He manipulated Sam in the most malicious way, leaving Martin free to run amuck; and he did this because it’s clear now, that he does not, no perhaps never did trust Sam. Dean has chosen Benny over his own brother.
I do agree he has chosen Benny over Sam. That saddens me. It would sadden me more if the writing had given Sam any emotional POV that could be related to. As it stands all we have is Dean’s heartfelt and honest opinion that Benny is better than Sam.
[quote][quote]I do agree he has chosen Benny over Sam. That saddens me.[/quote][/quote]
I dont think that’s a fair assessment of what happened. When Sam & Martin handcuffed Dean and left to ice Benny did u see it as a case of Sam choosing Martin over Dean? It sure felt that way didnt it? Things are not as cut & dry as that. I didnt see it as Dean choosing Benny over Sam but more as Dean not wanting to kill Benny. Thats all. If u think Sam chose Martin over Dean then maybe u can say Dean chose Benny over Sam. But I personally dont see it that way.
[quote] Dean has chosen Benny over his own brother.[/quote]
Looks like it, but I don’t think it’s quite so simple.
Dean told Benny not to underestimate Sam as a hunter.
Dean told Sam he would likely be killed by Benny if he went after him.
I really think Dean was afraid one would kill the other, and he didn’t want EITHER of them hurt. Removing Sam from the fight was the easiest way to defuse the situation.
JMHO.
But Dean didn’t manipulate Benny out of the fight, he manipulated Sam. To me, that’s choosing Benny over Sam and using his more intimate knowledge OF Sam against him. Pretty cold IMO.
I’m not saying it was right, but I really don’t think it is choosing Benny.
It’s choosing the most expedient way out of the conflict.
[quote][quote]I don’t agree with you on this one lala2. I think both brother’s showed that they had justified points and non justified points. Martin was an adult, capable of making his own decisions. He got himself killed because he made bad ones. He’s like Gordon in this way. If you want to hold either brother accountable, to me, Dean is more in the wrong here. He manipulated Sam in the most malicious way, leaving Martin free to run amuck; and he did this because it’s clear now, that he does not, no perhaps never did trust Sam. Dean has chosen Benny over his own brother.[/quote][/quote]
I understand what u are saying here and I agree that Sam is not responsibe for Martin’s death. But leaving him in the woods was a dick move. He should have atleast dropped him off at the motel. I also dont think Dean is responsible for Martin’s death. Sam brought him into the hunt when he clearly wasnt ready. But Martin didnt listen to either winchesters and met his fate. Anyway moving on… I dont agree with u that Dean chose Benny over Sam. Martin knocked him out cold and Sam did nothing abt it. That is not the Sam I know. It felt odd that he would then handcuff Dean and go with ‘mostly ok’ Martin to hunt a vamp that saved Dean’s life. So when Dean woke up how do u think he would have felt? Sam was capable of doing anything to hunt down Benny. How does he trust Sam after being handcuffed by him? On the surface it appeared as if Sam had chosen Martin over Dean. Now I dont condone what Dean did (regarding the text) but in a way I didnt see him have a choice. He wanted to save both Benny and Sam and this was the best way. As I said in an earlier comment both brothers had justification for their actions and I dont see this as Sam choosing Martin over Dean or Dean choosing Benny over Sam.
That’s true, I wasn’t that thrilled to find Sam going along with Martin after he clocked Dean. I think he was still stinging from Dean’s implied comments about not trusting Sam, although that isn’t an excuse. I guess its all a sign of how bad off their relationship is. They need a nice talk and some angst and a hug fest!
[quote]They need a nice talk and some angst and a hug fest![/quote]
That’s definitely what [b]I[/b] need to see from them!
LOTS of brother hugs. Yup. 🙂
Yes, Martin is an adult, but,[i] in my eyes[/i], he was clearly jittery and fragile. No one else has to agree. I’m not trying to change anyone’s opinion; I’m just stating my own. Martin seemed fragile.
I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but if I were Sam, I would feel like Martin’s death was on my head. I brought an unstable individual into a hunt, ditched him, and then he ended up dying. I would feel immense guilt b/c of that. All Martin was doing is what hunters do: hunt. People are acting like he was doing something awful. I don’t know. Sue me . . . I feel bad for the guy.
This is the part I don’t get — Sam set it in motion? How about Dean set it in motion when Dean brought Benny out of Purgatory and ressurrected him. Even Benny expected Dean to dump his soul in a ditch.
Dean sent Sam tearing off to Texas and then didn’t really manage the situation.
The only ‘bad’ thing that happened in the episode (other than the deterioration of Sam & Dean’s relationship) was Martin getting killed. Sure, Sam brought Martin in, but he didn’t seek him out. Martin came looking for a job. Martin is responsible for getting himself back into hunting — if it wasn’t a job Sam found him it would have been something else. And Martin is certainly responsible for the bonehead actions that got him killed.
I hate the Amelia story line as much as the next person, but I just can’t see this as Sam being thrown under the bus.
Hmmmm Sam left Benny in the woods because Sam is upset, confused and hurt and did not think. It is a common and very real reaction to a text like that ‘specially for someone in Sam’s emotional state. With Martin – who it turns out is something of a crazed psychopath- he has just knocked out his brother and left him, all of which would be upsetting Sam too – but he is desperate to do the right thing somehow, somewhere, and find some ‘semblance of okay. So he chooses the hunter mode of kill the monster. He and Martin had lost the trail. Nothing was happening as he had wanted it to. And then the text. Sam reacted emotionally and in a panic. It is not nice to see but understandable and I felt sympathy for Sam plus it was a good dramatic move for a story.
And you could look at it as Sam left Martin where he couldn’t cause trouble. He didn’t want him going after Benny on his own in case they were wrong or in case he hurt Dean again. Sam would know that Dean wouldn’t be trapped for long by the handcuffs.
Remember when little Ben called Dean in panic about his mother?
What did Dean do? He talked it out to Sam and just after Sam assured him to go then Dean went to see Lisa.
What Sam did this time?
From these two people responses what conclusion can you take? The writers insist that Sam would react this way, different to when they write about Dean’s reaction under the same circumtances.
My conclusion is, Dean is written loyal to his brother, Sam is written all over the place, He’s always the one who is written to run away…. no matter the reason. Just accept it because it’s cannon.
That’s all I’m saying. I don’t see how some can be shocked that others may think it was a tad rude how Sam just ditched Martin and stranded him in the woods w/not a word as to why.
I’m being told I’m twisting things or looking for reasons to complain . . . uh . . . it’s possible I just thought it was a rude thing to have Sam do. That’s all.
Yep, Sam it the bad one. No matter how cruel it was of Dean to trick Sam, the show has shown us that Sam is still in the wrong.
Percy, I don’t think it was right of Dean to trick Sam, but I also disagree w/Sam just stranding Martin in the woods. I thought it was a real jerky thing for the writers to have Sam do when Sam could have dropped him off at a motel or restaurant or somewhere near civilization.
[quote]Or you could look at it as Sam left Martin where he couldn’t cause trouble. He didn’t want him going after Benny on his own in case they were wrong or in case he hurt Dean again. Sam would know that Dean wouldn’t be trapped for long by the handcuffs.[/quote]
I dont know the truth is I am begining to find it all obnoxious. The simple fact is Martin shouldnt of been hunting at all not even rabbits let alone vampire’s favoured by Dean. Dean and Benny the whole way it has been used to attack Sam has a brother not very nice at all.
No, he shouldn’t have been, which is why I’m upset w/Carver having Sam just ditch Martin. Maybe, Sam could have reigned in Martin or something.
Well I enjoyed it hugely and some things you just have to put down to needing to get to the plot somehow with characters the audience can be invested in.
I thought all of them did a fantastic job, the script and atmospherics were great, Amelia finally got to behave like a real person and to me it was just entertaining from start to finish 😀
Sorry, I know I am outnumbered, but that’s my take on it.
Jared is very happy with it too if his tweet is anything to go by….
Jared has always admitted he likes playing evil Sam and Sam the bad guy. I’m glad he’s happy. That doesn’t make me happy however. They could have put the characters in the place they needed them without having Sam be disloyal, stupid and wrong, but they chose to trash Sam instead.
I don’t want the brothers back together. I’m tired of seeing Sam literally and figuratively demonized just so Dean can be right and feel rejected and abandoned.
Jared’s always happy though. And even if he were unhappy, I doubt we’d know it.
He is not obliged to tweet about it though- whatever other publicity he does.
Jared seems to like twitter. Isn’t he always tweeting stuff? I don’t have a Twitter accnt.
Actually that’s true eilf, Sam and Benny were no where near where the rogue vamp was so no real danger there.
Hi E, so sorry, you have lost me 😀 What are you talking about? I didn’t comment on the rogue vamp (pretty sure), I thought that Sam and Benny were a danger to each other is all.
Hi eilf, I was resonding to this quote of yours:
[quote]Or you could look at it as Sam left Martin where he couldn’t cause trouble. He didn’t want him going after Benny on his own in case they were wrong or in case he hurt Dean again. Sam would know that Dean wouldn’t be trapped for long by the handcuffs.[/quote]
Just agreeing with you that Sam and Martin were nowhere near Benny at the time Sam ditched him so the danger level was pretty low at that point. Martin managed to put himeslf into danger just fine all on his own. This got me thinking though about the whole ‘Dean sent the text to Sam to protect him’ argument. I am not sure I agree with that, but I am willing to consider it, which brings up the issue of Sam and Martin locking Dean up at the motel, and how Sam could have been doing that for Dean’s own good (at least in his own mind) as well. I think that Sam feels Dean’s thinking has been compromised by purgatory and that he went along with Martin to try and keep Dean safe and away from Benny. I am not sure I am buying my own argument here, but I am willing to give each brother the benefit of the doubt. 😆
Ok, I see 😀 I went through my posts and was confused – my bad!
Maybe what the guys were trying to do was say to themselves what would I do if this were NOT my brother, just another hunter in this situation. My brother doesn’t want what I want any more, we need to just be professional. How do I behave?
So they both did things that were out of character for their relationship but very logical for a hunter. ‘If I don’t want this person hurt / killed how do I keep him out of the way?’
This is a sad state of affairs though – I don’t like it one bit! I may have to go watch Fresh Blood to cheer myself up THAT had brotherly moments in it!
I see this as the issue that has to be cleared up after the hellatus! Soon!
Whatever sympathy I might have had for Martin evaporated when he used Elizabeth as bait.
Personally, I don’t think Benny killed him — I think Elizabeth did while trying to save Benny. I think Benny ran because of all the blood leaving a dazed Elizabeth to call Dean.
At worst, Sam inconvenienced Martin by leaving him stranded. Sam gave Martin a hand — a simple job to an old hunter friend — Martin didn’t follow Sam’s instructions or listen to Dean and both Sam & Dean underestimated Martin. And Martin’s level of crazy.
The Winchesters are not to blame for Martin’s death. Martin got himself killed.
I’m with you. I couldn’t tell for sure if he looked vamp-bitten. I thought it was left ambiguous who killed Martin, but the quick reactions seemed to state it was Benny as fact. I thought I had missed something (damn needy cats).
On a side note, that whole scene reminded me a lot of the Jo and Sam/Meg scene. Not sure what that might mean. Just sayin’…
That’s an interesting theory I hadn’t thought of, Melanie! I’m very skeptical, but I do want to watch again now to see if there are hints that it was Elizabeth who killed Martin. She did go a little nuts when she saw him place his head on the table. But then again, her phone call suggested she was supposed to call Dean if “Roy” did anything crazy. And Martin’s throat was a gruesome mess. Hmm…I’ll have to watch again.
I’m actually pretty sure you are right and Elizabeth killed Martin. (The rest edited by Alice. You know our Sam vs. Dean rules).
And if the show would support that in any way textually, I would be fine with it, but textually Dean was right, Benny was good, Sam was stupid to call Martin and should never, ever do anything that Dean doesn’t approve.
[quote]I think the show left it off rather ambiguously. The episode ending didn’t suggest either Sam or Dean being wrong.
We never saw Desmond the vampire actually kill anyone, much like we didn’t see Benny actually killing anyone. We can’t say if Benny did the right thing or not. We don’t know where Dean is at with Benny. But I don’t think Dean is blaming Sam for what happened to Benny- it doesn’t look that way from the phone call. The phone call looks like Dean wanting Sam to hear his explanation for the whole mess, and Sam not willing at the mo. (Which is understandable)[/quote]
Sam leaving Martin… was not right, yes. BUT, Benny´s not there. Martin is a seasoned hunter. Amelia is posibly in danger.
So, I can live with that.
When Dean had Martin on the phone, I sincerely wished, he just would have picked up on that crazy vibe, Martin was giving off.
Or that he would have sticked around a little longer, to make sure, Lizzy was really ok and Martin left.
But well, the boys don´t know, what we know.
Sam was really unreasonable with the whole Benny thing.
He truly and completely believed, Benny had gone darkside.
I think, the key here is “I don´t know Benny”
No he doesn´t, al he sees is a possible danger for Dean.
But still, without Martin in the picture, pushing both of them, it all could have gone way different.
Someone said something about Sam´s reaction to Martin´s “If you Dad knew about Dean…”
And I think it was very telling, how he got violent, the moment, Martin said something bad about Dean.
But I´m worried about Benny. If he really vamped out on Martin…. shit… AND losing Elisabeth. I wonder if he can keep not drinking humans…
Benny…. :sigh:
I really fell in love with him this episode. And I just keep thinking, if he and Sam could just get to know each other, they would really get along.
On the other hand… there is the perception thing.
Dean saw Benny through the eyes of a friend and ready to believe just about anything, as long as it meant, Benny was innocent.
But Benny WAS ready to fight it out with Dean, had Dean attacked him. He already had his fingers on the knife.
Sam saw Benny as a vampire, not really ready to trust Dean, that he was innocent. And he wasn´t completely wrong, from his point of view.
Had Benny been the killer (and we still don´t know, perhaps it was him), and had he wanted to kill Dean… it would have been a good thing, that Sam was so suspicious and went after him.
Damn… they were both right, from their standpoints. And they were both wrong…
And there wasn´t a way, this could have ended well….
I’ll probably get flamed for this comment, but I find it kind of ironic and sad that it is the fans who supposedly favor Sam, the ones who are the “Sam Girls” (of which I am most definitely one) are the ones who seem LEAST willing to give the character a break here. It’s not the Dean fans that are questioning all of Sam’s behavior, it’s the Sam fans. The poor guy can’t even seem to get support or catch a break from the fans who claim to be in his corner.
Moved to the new “Let’s Discuss: Supernatural Season Eight Bitterness Thread”
Moved to the new “Let’s Discuss: Supernatural Season Eight Bitterness Thread”
I am truly glad you are enjoying this season and that you like Sam. This is obviously something we don’t see the same way.
As someone else pointed out, I am not being objective about this, so I’ll leave it at that.
Moved to the new “Let’s Discuss: Supernatural Season Eight Bitterness Thread”
It is really interesting that you think that you get jumped on about Dean. I have never had anyone jump on me for saying nice things about Sam. But If I try and defend Dean or say anything remotely positive I always get rebuttle comments. Sam is viewed more as a victim and Dean is fair game because he is seen as the less sensitive of the two. They have both been distrustful and insensitive at times. Oh well.
Above comment replying to percysowner’s comment that was relocated.
[quote][quote]It is really interesting that you think that you get jumped on about Dean. I have never had anyone jump on me for saying nice things about Sam. But If I try and defend Dean or say anything remotely positive I always get rebuttle comments. Sam is viewed more as a victim and Dean is fair game because he is seen as the less sensitive of the two. They have both been distrustful and insensitive at times. Oh well.[/quote][/quote]
That is so true. I love both brothers and have defended both depending on the situation. But I felt I was always rebutted when I tried to defend Dean.
The funny thing I noticed this season is that when Sam does something wrong fans say the writers have made him look bad. But if Dean does something wrong then he is a jerk. If Dean sends a manipulative text to Sam then he is a cold, mean jerk etc but when Sam ditches Martin its the writers fault for throwing Sam under the bus. Its annoying. IMO both brothers have been shown to be right and both shown to be wrong. Some of the comments on this site border on Dean hate. I’m feeling less and less inclined to comment becos of the brother vs brother thing. But I do realise its a small section of fans who do that. Hope Alice’s new thread can streamline that.
[quote]IMO both brothers have been shown to be right and both shown to be wrong.[/quote]The earlier season’s are over.I know but i have not forgotten them.When i compound what happened in them and what is happening it is downright painful.I am not talking about the stories they gave Sam but how always i have to wait for Sam’s story and have to hear hurtful comments about Sam.If I was a Cat I would close my eyes and drink my milk.But,I know about the Sam hate going about.
[quote][quote][quote]IMO both brothers have been shown to be right and both shown to be wrong.[/quote]The earlier season’s are over.I know but i have not forgotten them.When i compound what happened in them and what is happening it is downright painful.I am not talking about the stories they gave Sam but how always i have to wait for Sam’s story and have to hear hurtful comments about Sam.If I was a Cat I would close my eyes and drink my milk.But,I know about the Sam hate going about.[/quote][/quote]
I know how u feel. I dont like the Sam hate either. Its painful. But here’s where I disagree. I dont think the TPTB have shown Sam to be wrong and that he is the one who has to apologize always.
For eg. whole of season 4 Sam’s actions were just brushed aside and made into Dean’s fault in Season 5 Fallen Idols. Dean was OOC in that and had to apologize to Sam. Again in The End Dean apologizes to Sam for something that is not his fault. The Amy thing is the only episode where Sam apologizes to Dean. So am not sure where some fans are getting this theory that Sam is always shown as wrong and apologizing to Dean. I often see it the other way. I guess mileage varies. But am with u on the hate part. I dont like Sam or Dean hate.
[quote] whole of season 4 Sam’s actions were just brushed aside and made into Dean’s fault in Season 5 Fallen Idols.[/quote]No Fallen Idols acknowledged Dean’s part in the mess..If the times Cas reminded us Sam was an abomination is anything to go by (not the only thing mind you) nothing was swept under the rug.[quote]Dean was OOC in that and had to apologize to Sam. [/quote]Dean had to apologise for the part he played.[quote]The Amy thing is the only episode where Sam apologizes to Dean. So am not sure where some fans are getting this theory that Sam is always shown as wrong and apologizing to Dean.[/quote]The Amy thing is where Sam should not have apologised to Dean.When in season 5 Dean was not ready to hear Sam’s apologies sam showed it continuously through his actions.Mind you, I am not saying Dean had no right to act how he acted with sam after what happened .Some people forgive easily some don’t .But saying sam did not ask for forgiveness any other time is an error.
[quote]But saying sam did not ask for forgiveness any other time is an error.[/quote]
U got me wrong. I didnt say Sam never apologized for his mistakes. My point was regarding people who say that the show always makes Sam wrong and he keeps apologizing for things that are not his fault. I see the show as more balanced than that. Dean makes a lot of mistakes too. He is wrong on some occasions. I dont agree with the view that the show has made Sam a villain as many of the Sam fans claim. My post was to say that I dont see Sam having to apologize all the time. He is as right or as wrong as Dean. They have an equal part in e’thing that happens. The writers ensure symmetry. I’m actually trying to defend Sam but its not coming out the way I intended 🙂
Oh okay then.Nice talking to you.
[quote] But If I try and defend Dean or say anything remotely positive I always get rebuttle comments.[/quote]Only if you are grossly negative about Sam.
Not true, anonymouN, It has happened quite a few times and I defy anyone to point out any grossly negative or ANY negative comment I have ever made about Sam. I have always defended and understood his choices and continue to do so to this day. I try and give Dean the benefit of the doubt too. Conversely I am not blind to their faults either.
First of all I keep typing your name wrong, sorry. Secondly I typed random letters in front of my own. A sure sign it is time to wrap it up!
Its Okay. 😆
[quote]Conversely I am not blind to their faults either.[/quote]I am not saying what we percieve is gospel truth or what you think for that matter.But what you think of as faults may not be to others and if someone offers a rebuttal it is not a bad thing.Right?
Hi again, I guess I wasn’t done. I just meant I do not see them through rose colored glasses. But when I say something nice about Dean I get more backlash than I do when I say something nice about Sam. It really doesn’t bother me that much, it’s just a fact of life. People are generally a little harder on Dean because his personality is more abrasive, and sometimes he deserves it. He does a better job than Sam of hiding his hurt and insecurities and that makes me a little protective of him as you are of Sam! If I say he really loves his brother and will always be there for him, a handful of people would tell me I am wrong and why. It happens and I do respect the views of others so no big deal. I don’t mind rebuttal, it’s not a bad thing, it just happens more with Dean praise than Sam praise.
Thanks for the correct spelling of rebuttal!! I knew it didn’t look right 🙂
Leah,
I must comment because I think it’s the first time I’ve ever disagreed with you in recent history, lol. I’m the opposite – I think Sam hides his hurts and insecurities way better than Dean does – though I’d also add the caveat that this was a role reversal from how they were in S1-3. I also think part of why some are harder on Dean is because he’s the older brother, and by birthright has a role with more responsibility. At least that’s my take. 🙂
Hey Bambo24, no problem at all. It was bound to happen sooner or later 🙂 I think Sam’s feelings show up on his expressive face. Dean seems to always have his “Dean” face and armour up. His way of dealing with hurt is anger. He won’t easily let his guard down, Sam is usually more willing to talk. I say usually because because neither of them is doing much of that this season.
[quote]I also think part of why some are harder on Dean is because he’s the older brother, and by birthright has a role with more responsibility.[/quote]We are two brothers and i am elder. By birth right has more responsibity but Sam’s mistakes are Sam’s never Dean’s.Dean is only responsible for the part he plays,no more,no less.
[quote]Sam’s mistakes are Sam’s never Dean’s. Dean is only responsible for the part he plays,no more,no less.[/quote]
I agree.
Also – I didn’t meant that Dean is responsible “for” Sam by birthright, (certainly not, considering that they are adults) I merely meant that being older tends to come with certain responsibilities that are inherent. (Not in every case – I’m both generalizing and speaking from personal experience).
You shouldn’t get flamed for this comment. It’s a fair assessment. I think you’re dead on. I don’t think the writers are trashing Sam. I think that they’re doing a very honest portrayal of a guy just trying to pull it all together. My heart really broke for him last night, and I don’t think he did anything wrong.
AGAIN, I must remind everyone to keep the heavy rants about Sam and Dean off the episode discussion threads. I’m getting very, very tired of reading general “the writers are trashing X character and Y character” on basic episode discussion threads. I’m moving parts of this discussion (not you E) to a “Let’s Discuss” thread.
[quote]I think that they’re doing a very honest portrayal of a guy just trying to pull it all together.[/quote]I honestly don’t understand how they can do a honest portrayal of that without showing how he was when he lost the things he is trying to pull together.
[quote]showing how he lost the things he is trying to pull together.[/quote]
I think they did show how he lost the things he is trying to pull together – look at S7. Bobby died, Sam had a terrible time keeping himself together under the onslaught of hallucinations, he almost died from it, and at the end of it all, Dean vanished. That is the premise and buildup for all of this. Sam was vulnerable in S7, but he shattered in the finale when he lost his “stone number one.” In his own words, he “felt like the world was coming down around [him]” and he ran. He ran until he found Amelia, and she (in Sam’s own words again) “saved [him]”. Those who were hoping for a backstory of Sam having a emotional/mental break – it’s written on the wall in bold ink – Sam was “broken” long before Dean vanished, we just didn’t understand the extent of his vulnerability. Dean’s disappearance was the straw that broke the camel’s back. But I think that year off helped Sam heal, gave him some clarity, and enabled him to be strong again. Now we’re seeing kind of a role reversal with the brothers (at least how I see it) where Sam is the one taking a hard line and trying to reign in Dean.
I was referring to immediately after Dean vanished …Can you honestly tell me you know what happened after then without maybes [quote](in Sam’s own words again)[/quote]If supernatural was on radio then also so little words would not be enough.
Sam was wonderfully stable when the show needed him to be (s 07)and they showed it. now i want to be shown when he was unstable and the tragedy for me is there is a maybe chance they will show it.
I don’t know whether you will understand what i am saying is I wanted a scene of how Sam reacted after Dean vanished and it is already late i hope they show it before it is too late.
anonymousN:
I wouldn’t say I know for certain, because there could always be a curveball down the road. But I feel fairly confident in my understanding of what they are trying to depict.
I think I do understand what you are saying. You want a scene like we saw in S4’s “I know what you did last summer” where we clearly saw Sam’s grief and mental/emotional meltdown after Dean went to hell. Not exactly like that – but something that’s maybe more clear to you, that spells it out. I don’t think you are wrong for wanting something like that.
I think Sam’s reaction is different this time than what it has been in the past, precisely because of all he’s been through. I also think it’s a different method of storytelling – not to mention an entirely different story. And still we don’t have all the details. You may well get that scene you’re looking for. Or…the storytelling and explanation may be more subtle. I prefer the latter actually. I like the depth and the enigma. One of my favorite things about SPN has always been how we often learn about what’s going on with the brothers by the parallel stories of the people they meet on the hunt. I think a lot of that is going on this season, too. I feel like a lot of the explanation for Sam’s actions in present time is found in the parallels of the flashbacks. And Sam himself has said a lot. But again, I understand if you don’t like that particular style.
It was already too little too late in s04 the fandom marinated in Dean’s opinions for too long in s04 and i see the same happening now too.I have not seen such delays in Dean’s story where there is a risk to his character being misunderstood.and that is how showrunners should treat their protagonists.(eg The Dean angst before CRD,even Dean’s guilt for having wronged Cas was dealt quickly ).So why torture me with subtle depiction for Sam.If you see how many theories were aired for sam’s actions in this website alone you will understand how unsure we were and finally when we go into hellatus all the theories went wrong.(except maybe mine-nostalgia)
Well, I didn’t hop into this until mid-S6, so I watched S1-5 in order, all at once over the course of about a 2-3 week period. I don’t know what the fandom was like back then, so I will just have to take your word for it. I do know that watching S4 on my own was stressful enough! 🙂
I guess maybe the difference between is that I am okay with this uncertainty. A good story IMO is one that entertains me, keeps me guessing, is coherent, seems to have momentum and purposeful writing, and contains depth of storyline as well as character development. I think S8 thus far has demonstrated all of these, and that’s entirely apart from how I feel about Sam and Dean’s storyline, if that makes sense. If there was no uncertainty or mystery, it wouldn’t be interesting, there’d be no momentum. At the same time, when the writing lacks purpose and the storyline lacks direction, it is painfully obvious, as it was in S7. And I would say that S8 is distinctly different from S7.
I am from India ,so I am one year late..but i caught with US viewers in season 4 and discovered online fandom at the same time.
Replying to this and Bamboo’s post on the Bitterness thread.
[quote]Bobby died, Sam had a terrible time keeping himself together under the onslaught of hallucinations, he almost died from it, and at the end of it all, Dean vanished.[/quote]But in between cas took his crazy away so he was not plagued or rather later nothing was shown about that to be sure
[quote]Bobby died, Sam had a terrible time keeping himself together under the onslaught of hallucinations[/quote]
Well actually Bobby died and Sam held it together enough to rescue Krissy’s father and to get Dean back after Chronos took Dean back to the 1940’s, and to save Dean from being murdered by his own daughter, and to face his childhood phobia clowns. Even after he “let Lucifer in” he still held it together while dealing with cursed artifacts and the Leviathans in town. He did all this by just rubbing his hand. He then had 1 episode where he almost died and then Cas came along and Sam was fine and dandy. Sam rubbed his hand and coped for thirteen episodes and even while dying he held it together enough to get rid of the ghost haunting the other inmate. The one thing that was almost completely lacking in season 7 was any urgency about what Sam lost or how even if he was affected at all by the 24/7 hallucinations that we were never shown. DEAN was falling apart more than Sam was in season 7.
I think that’s a fair interpretation, percysowner.
From my perspective, I don’t think one was more “broken” than the other – I think that Sam is more introverted and prone to hold in his hurts – hence the hand-rubbing; whereas Dean is more extroverted and vocal – hence the constant fatalistic and nihilistic comments. And drinking has always been more Dean’s forte than Sam’s.
I also think a person can “cope”, as the boys do very, very well – but that’s all it is. It doesn’t change what each brother was struggling with, or the magnitude of it.
Re: “The Born Again Identity” episode – no one loathed that episode more than I did – we are totally on the same page there.
E, I find that interesting myself. You would think they would be looking for reasons to identify with and love Sam instead of seeing him writtten as evil, bad, untrustworthy, diseased, etc. I think it is because they (and I) love him so much that they are like open wounds and every perceived slight against Sam hurts them. I just come at it from a different angle I guess.
I agree wholeheartedly with this E. I just started wondering this morning if it were actually concern trolling that is going on with regard to Sam since yes, absolutely the WORST things I have ever seen said about Sam have been by people claiming to have his back.
I love the character, I think that it is complex, and deeply moving, I think he did (almost) all the right things in last nights episode. But Dean also did what he thought was right. It blew up in their faces. It happens. Watch Jus in Bello.
Well I dont think anybody as to justify how they feel they have their reasons which have been explained. People wear different glasses doesnt make anybody wrong.
Speaking for myself I adore Sam he has been my connection to the show from day 1 I have always thought he is the most tragic character of the show. But I have had issues with how he has been written and at least how his story has been presented and how other characters including Dean are written in their interaction with him .I wont deny the better brother stuff makes me cringe.
Sharon,
I can only speak for myself, of course, but I think the problem is not that some have a more negative opinion of this season. Not in the least. But this is a place for discussion. And I do think that the way in which some choose to express their criticism can be so visceral, sarcastic, angry, and unbalanced that it precludes meaningful discussion. I think that is the problem.
Thanks Alice, I was pretty worried about posting that comment. I didn’t want to offend anyone, but it was something I noticed. I felt that the episode was pretty balanced overall between the brothers; both had good and bad moments that outlined their current conflict and states very well.
Thank you, Sharon. I’m not sure why we have to justify why we aren’t happy w/the writing for Sam. We just aren’t, and I feel many of us have explained ourselves quite well.
At the end of the day, everyone is entitled to think and feel whatever they want. My unhappiness w/Sam’s current story doesn’t make me any less of a Sam fan than someone who loves his current story. We just have different opinions and perspectives.
The “better brother” stuff would have enraged me a few years ago, but the brotherhood is so dead in my mind that it didn’t even phase me. Dean clearly doesn’t trust Sam or have any faith in him so it’s not surprising Benny is a better brother in his eyes.
No one, including Bamboo24, is saying anyone has to justify or explain themselves. No one is saying that people don’t have a right to express themselves but when it turns into a nonobjective angry rant one loses all credibility. I love reading all opinions, even those I don’t agree as long as it’s done in a rational and respecful manner.
Well, as someone who is unhappy, this board isn’t very welcoming to critical opinions.
I understand that the majority of people who post here love every single thing about the show. That’s fine. I understand critical comments are few and far between. That’s fine as well. All I can say is as someone w/a critical opinion, I do feel like I’m being asked to justify my opinion. Again, that may not be the intent, but that is how it feels.
If you think that is what comments about Sam were about (trolling) you are sorely mistaken .The Worst things said are said by Dean not us.(about Sam)His wonderful big brother.
Well I didn’t think they were, until I realized how much they are being repeated over and over. And so incredibly awful some of them. At least most things Dean said he only said once!
If anyone (and I am happy to include myself here) looks back on their last few posts and realizes they have posted the same negative thing more than, say, 5 times perhaps that is what people are complaining about and not that you don’t have a right to your own opinion (there may be too many negatives in that sentence). You have a right to your opinion. I may not agree with it, and I may say so, but I don’t deny you the right to it.
[quote]At least most things Dean said he only said once![/quote]No,he has said them once now in this season.Oh and i am lucky that Dean is only there on the screens for that one hour.[quote]I may not agree with it, and I may say so, [/quote]and you should.Let me assure you it is not trolling.It is simply a maddening itch we can’t reach and we hope to after the season reastarts.
deleted -Repost of earlier comment
E, if you go beyond this board, you’ll find plenty of Dean fans that are ripping Sam to shreds. Trust me. It’s happening, just not here.
And I honestly have no interest in hating Sam. I’m not looking for reasons to dislike the show. I don’t understand why some think we want to hate the show. I am disappointed in the writing for Sam. I don’t feel the writing is adequately explaining Sam or his POV. I don’t know or understand this new Carver-inspired Sam. For instance, instead of having Sam talk to Dean about how he no longer thinks monsters can be trusted or how he’s learned to not give any monster the benefit of the doubt, we have Sam very jealously stating, “Well, I might be the one to off Benny” like a child. That statement came out of nowhere and had nothing to do w/their original disagreement. Why is Sam even trailing Benny? I don’t know why Sam cares about Benny? None of it makes sense to me, and I refuse to twist myself in knots trying to come up w/an explanation. The writers should do a better job of explaining the character’s motivations and feelings. It’s really quite simple.
And my issue isn’t w/”Sam;” it’s w/the writers and Carver, in particular. Carver is the one who has twisted Sam into someone unrecognizable to me. Who knows why!
[quote]And my issue isn’t w/”Sam;” it’s w/the writers and Carver, in particular. [/quote]Exactly.100%.
I understand Lala and Percysowner, I really do. I don’t mean to imply that you don’t have the right to be unhappy, or that you don’t have the right to express your unhappiness. I was just struck by the nature of some of the comments (many comments from many different posters); especially recently, which seem to be making an assumption that what the poster has said about Sam is common knowledge and is universally accepted by all fans. The structure of the comment is more like putting words in people’s mouth rather than stating an opinion. ‘Sam is a terrible brother, Sam is 100% wrong and Dean is a saint to put up with him…Sam is petty and jealous and hates Benny because he’s immature and being bitchy…..and don’t we all agree?’ There is no qualifier in many of these posts to indicate that this is an argument in reverse, so it ends up sounding like Sam bashing rather than a plea for Sam’s story to be fleshed out in a meaningful way; it sounds like an attack not a defense.
You-all have a right to post your comments in any way you see fit of course, and for the most part, I enjoy reading them even if I don’t always agree with them entirely. I hope that you will find something in the show and in Sam’s portrayal that is satisfying after the hellatus comes to an end. And about other boards? I don’t care. I don’t participate on other sites, just this one. I am sorry if you go to other sites and are inundated with mountains of Sam hate that knows no bounds, that must not be any fun at all. That is not the case here though.
lala2 and anonymousN:
Because I’ve done a lot of commenting on this topic, I just want to clarify that my desire is not for unhappy commentators to be or feel shut out of any conversation – but I do wholeheartedly think that the MANNER in which such criticisms have been expressed recently has not been constructive.
This is a place where I, and I assume most everyone else, come to have meaningful, interactive discussion with those who think similarly [i]as well as differently[/i] about the show we love (and sometimes hate). In fact, lala2, I’d venture to say that we’ve had some good discussions in the past (at least that’s been my perception) despite the fact that we rarely agree. 🙂 But bitter ranting is not conducive to meaningful discussion or interaction. That’s what I and others have been speaking against. It’s something that I know is rampant on other sites, and that’s why I’m [i]here[/i] and not there.
Exactly! It is so hard to get the point across that it isn’t the difference of opinions that we are talking about. I think this site is VERY tolerant of negative opinions and I personally like to hear all reasonable opinions. Positive or negative. I would miss any one of the regular commenters on this site. It is also why I am here.
[quote][quote] If anyone should be blamed, it could almost be Dean’s fault because he sent that text knowing full well what it could do to Sam. I could argue that if Dean hadn’t sent the text, Sam wouldn’t have left and Martin wouldn’t have pulled the crazy stunt. [/quote][/quote]
By that logic u could say that if Sam had not brought ‘mostly ok’ Martin to the hunt all this could have been avoided. Initially Sam says that he only asked Martin to tail Benny. So obviously he didnt think Martin was good enough to hunt vamps. So when he and Martin went to hunt Benny together, Sam was responsible for Martin (atleast indirectly). So leaving Martin alone in the woods was wrong on Sam’s part.
So I dont think it is almost Dean’s fault like u are suggesting. IMO Martins death was neither brothers fault becos Martin did not listen to either of the winchester brothers.
This is unsubstantiated word on the street, so take it with many grains of salt, but I have heard that in the planning of the season 8.10 was meant to be the cliffhanger, and this one became the cliffhanger because of network rather than writer decisions. So for those left off-balance by the episode, I’d definitely wait to see what goes down in 8.10, just in case that is really more the place TPTB originally wanted to leave us for hiatus.
This makes sense to me ethledred as originally the dates we had were with no breaks through to the winter hiatus and then there was a Thanksgiving break announced, but the winter hiatus date didn’t shift. It’ll be interesting to see what is revealed next episode and if the unveiling of the mystery lurker happens then!
Ah, so that’s the odd feeling. I keep wondering about this episode. After I watched it I was left with.. huh? that’s it? that’s the cliffhanger? I thought it would be a blast.
Last year we have Bobby’s death, last two years we have Sam re-souled. This time, although the episode is quite heavy it’s not cliffhanger material in my opinion.
[quote]Ah, so that’s the odd feeling. I keep wondering about this episode. After I watched it I was left with.. huh? that’s it? that’s the cliffhanger? I thought it would be a blast.
Last year we have Bobby’s death, last two years we have Sam re-souled. This time, although the episode is quite heavy it’s not cliffhanger material in my opinion.[/quote]
Yeah… after watching the preview for 8.10 I´m pretty glad that it WONT be the the episode before the hiatus… because honestly?
Ugh…. like… shit, that looks bad… as in… really bad.. as in… OMG, what are they doing?
Samandriel?
Castiel?
Angels?
Dentist from hell?
Crowley, stop toturing that baby Angel!
Sam back in AMELIAS old Motel room?
Wait … wait…. that’s Amelia’s old motel room or Sam’s old motel room? LOL
Perhaps I didn’t get the scene right but Crowley’s torture scene is taken from S6 scene? Because the room is the same, I think. So, Crowley hole up in the same place after all this time? You’d think he’d be creative, or the set decor would be creative.
I realize that I still don’t know anything about this whole plot but one thing that I already underlined as suspects are :
1. Benny (Too suspicious. In Supernatural history when there was a good monster, they live them on their own. Not bringing them over and over again and tying them into the storyline. The fact that Benny keeps popping up like a dirty secret is suspicious. They always turn bad, you know. Even Cas turns bad because of too much Winchester exposure) I hope Benny turn bad because I wanna see what Dean would do when faced with bad choice of his own. I mean fair is fair.
2. Samandriel (His first appearance is too suspicious too. His question about Cas, and he is likely a pawn. The Angels could have use him as bait or distraction to keep Crowley’s attention busy. Crowley’s remark that he ‘barely scratches the surface’ with the angel is also suspicious).
3. Sam (His too perfect timing to go to the cabin when Dean was there is suspicious. Why didn’t he came a week later? three days sooner? His odd and awkward reaction to the whole brotherly reunion? Suspicious. Oh and Sam had a left eye several times. Usually that’s a sign of someone who’s lying or hiding something)
[quote]Wait … wait…. that’s Amelia’s old motel room or Sam’s old motel room? LOL
Perhaps I didn’t get the scene right but Crowley’s torture scene is taken from S6 scene? Because the room is the same, I think. So, Crowley hole up in the same place after all this time? You’d think he’d be creative, or the set decor would be creative.
I realize that I still don’t know anything about this whole plot but one thing that I already underlined as suspects are :
1. Benny (Too suspicious. In Supernatural history when there was a good monster, they live them on their own. Not bringing them over and over again and tying them into the storyline. The fact that Benny keeps popping up like a dirty secret is suspicious. They always turn bad, you know. Even Cas turns bad because of too much Winchester exposure) I hope Benny turn bad because I wanna see what Dean would do when faced with bad choice of his own. I mean fair is fair.
2. Samandriel (His first appearance is too suspicious too. His question about Cas, and he is likely a pawn. The Angels could have use him as bait or distraction to keep Crowley’s attention busy. Crowley’s remark that he ‘barely scratches the surface’ with the angel is also suspicious).
3. Sam (His too perfect timing to go to the cabin when Dean was there is suspicious. Why didn’t he came a week later? three days sooner? His odd and awkward reaction to the whole brotherly reunion? Suspicious. Oh and Sam had a left eye several times. Usually that’s a sign of someone who’s lying or hiding something)[/quote]
Uhm.. Sam or Amelias… puh. Good question.
Was the number 118 seen in a scene where Sam steppen into Amelias room or vice versa?
Now you got me confused.
But anyways…
SUSPICIOUS!
And remember: someone set Benny onto Dean in Purgatory! We still don´t know, who “they” [s]was[/s] were.
Sheesh, my English is suffering. Time for the weekend
[quote]This is unsubstantiated word on the street, so take it with many grains of salt, but I have heard that in the planning of the season 8.10 was meant to be the cliffhanger…[/quote]
Perhaps that answers something that’s been puzzling me about this episode. In an interview promoting Citizen Fang, Jeremy Carver said we’d find out who was watching Sam & Amelia’s house in the season opener. Unless I dozed off, we didn’t. (When the credits rolled, I thought for a second it must have been Don, Amelia’s husband, and that would have been a serious let-down.) Maybe Carver was thinking of the next episode….
Darya, I agree w/Percy. People act as if I want to dislike the show or something. [b]I don’t[/b]. Why would I? This is the only show I actually own on DVD for all its seasons (except 7). I used to love Supernatural. I love both brothers. I don’t like having issues w/the show or the writing, but that’s what’s happening for me. I understand others are happy, but I just wish people could understand that some of us aren’t.
The writing for Sam is bad. They rarely give Sam some big speech about his feelings or what he’s thinking. It usually a throwaway line here and there. I need more than that to understand him and his perspective.
I think Show has done an awful job at explaining Sam’s issue w/Benny. I honestly don’t get his problem w/Benny. Does Sam suddenly think all monsters should be killed? If so, then why don’t they have him state that – plainly and clearly? I would love to hear him speak more on why he’s done a 180 w/r/t monsters.
I just want to understand Sam, and the writers never seem to write him w/the depth they do Dean, Benny, Castiel, any random PIP.
Darya – thanks for the clarification. U are right that every situation can be looked at in different ways and we can come to different conclusions. All this plays well into JCs comment about perception and perspective. E’one seems right or atleast has some justification for their actions when looked at from their POV. This season has been good at doing that. So I guess u and I are right too 🙂
I think, Sam was pretty much ok with letting Dean call the shots concerning Benny, until Dean dropped that “never let me down” line.
And you SAW how much that hurt Sam.
And how he got suspicious of it all.
And suddenly “All out of love”
Playlist, what are you doing to me? :/
So Sam acted more so out of jealousy and pettiness than actual fear or rationale?
That’s how I see, and that’s not exactly putting Sam in a positive light, IMO. And I’m not saying Sam should never look bad, but ever since S4, Sam has always looked bad at some point.
But if Percy feels the writers are deliberately destroying Sam, why is that wrong? She has right to think that, doesn’t she?
Thanks for the response, Darya! I hear what you’re saying but don’t you think the episode would have been better if we had been treated to Sam explaining this to Dean or even Martin?
I can’t forget that Sam had no problems w/Amy or that werewolf going free so it’s not like Sam feels letting monsters go has burned him in the past. Those situations were AFTER Ruby. Plus, Sam has always identified as a “monster” or a “freak.” I just don’t feel like there has been sufficient dialogue to give us some insight into Sam’s new position re: monsters or his problems w/Benny. It doesn’t help that Dean seems fine to me. I don’t know. I feel the season is going over my head b/c while Sam is not behaving like himself, he and Dean seem okay to me. They don’t seem to be troubled or anything.
What can I say? The writing is just not capturing me this year. The show is very directionless to me right now. Sam, IMO, is suffering the most under Carver. It may get better; it may not.
Darya, you hit the nail on the head:
[quote]I don’t want to make any point about anyone’s opinions here, I just want to comment on why I think Sam did a “180” on monsters.
He actually didn’t. He was completely fine with letting the werewolf chick go. That isn’t what this is about at all. Dean has been telling him and telling him, for seasons many past, that “all monsters have to be killed.” The message has been drilled into him, repeatedly and quite often exaggeratedly. While he is okay with the werewolf chick because they both understood her at the same time, it needn’t be so with Benny. Sam has trusted a monster in the past and the consequences were bad. He kept Dean in the dark about Ruby, just as Dean is doing with him, and it ended horribly for all parties. Sam doesn’t know Benny, and Dean isn’t letting him know. The whole Purgatory thing must make no sense to him, and neither does Benny.
Add to it all the hypocrisy of Dean suddenly stating “People change”, and Sam is left wondering exactly how impartial Dean can be about Benny.
(Because it IS hypocrisy. Dean has NEVER been this way with monsters. He’s always Sam the exact opposite of what he’s saying now. He’s never understood Sam’s empathy for them. Honestly, if Dean suddenly trusts monsters, that SHOULD make Sam extremely wary of said monster. Especially after his admission in S7 that what Dean did to Amy was right. He made peace with that, told himself to think that way, and now DEAN pulls a 180 on him. Alarm bells HAVE to ring with Sam.)
So I don’t think this issue is about “all monsters should be killed” It’s Sam not trusting Dean because Dean is being very much Not!Dean. It’s Sam being cautious because Dean’s perspective of Benny from Purgatory could be skewed by the very nature of that place.
Seriously, what’s Sam supposed to think now? “All monsters should be killed” was Dean’s line for a long while, a logic that Sam tried to accept. Now this logic has gone south. I’d be very confused and upset enough to wonder if Dean’s in his right mind, and that’s just what Sam’s doing. Plus all the “better brother” crap can’t endear him to Benny. To me it doesn’t look like Sam has any particular problem with Benny except that he’s a vampire. He gave Dean the time he asked for. Then the body count climbed and Sam had to act.[/quote]
Can anyone tell me what happened to the amulet that Sam gave Dean when they were kids.
[quote]Can anyone tell me what happened to the amulet that Sam gave Dean when they were kids.[/quote]
Hi Kaz
Castiel took the amulet in the beginning of season 5 in his search for God as it turned out, the amulet burned hot in the presence of God.
After Sam and Dean went to Heaven in “Darkside of the Moon” Cass returned the amulet to Dean because they discovered God was not interested in helping with stopping the Apocalypse and Castiel was broken and disheartened, losing faith in his Father.
Whislt in Heaven, Dean saw a couple of Sam’s favourite memories…which were happy for Sam but not for Dean.
So when Cass gave the amulet back to Dean….he tossed it in the bin…..
It was heartbreaking for Sam and Dean fans alike.
I think most fans assume that Sam retrieved it from the bin…maybe it’s stashed somewhere safe…
Hope that helps.
Wow! I feel it is still important to the story. It seems to be symbol/motif/metaphor for their bond. I feel that when the dust settles btwn the two brothers, the amulet will show up again. Here is hoping anyway. I would love to see Sam give it back to Dean.
You never know!
Intially Jensen said he was glad to see the back of the amulet as it chipped his teeth during fight scenes!
But recently, he said, he’d be open to its return…so…who knows.
I didn’t know Jensen said that. I would absolutely love to see a scene where Sam gives it back to him. We all know he has it…
Oh the amulet. It has become the holy grail of the supernatural fandom. Oh, ye precious amulet. Where are thou?
Things has not been the same ever since it’s gone.