Let’s Speculate: “Supernatural” 8.18, “Freaks and Geeks”

173 Comments

1. The good part was that Dean was written as smart, compassionate (like the old Dean was), and experienced. Sam, not so much.

   The bad part is that I will not watch S9’s Master Hunter Krissy episode.

   Thank you, Show, for reminding me Sam wants a normal life. I was mistakenly under the impression that this was a show about two brothers hunting evil to save people. I’ve got it now. No more reminders needed….please.

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2. There can’t be many innocents in hell. So Sam better be after Adam! Go save your brother! NOW!!!!

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3. I’m actually rooting for Sam to move in time and be the one to save Dean. He can hand him over to Cas who is coming to get Dean, so Cas can do the final step. There is NO WAY this will happen, but I can dream until next week.

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   1. I do not understand your reference–save Dean from what?
      And why is Cass coming to get Dean? What final step?

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4. Ugh, this episode did not even qualify as a filler episode. I cringe when I see Adam Glass writer and this one did not fail to disappoint me. I LOVE Supernatural and it hurts me when there is a really bad episode and I think I may need a medic.

   Next week does look very interesting and I hope it is. This roller coaster ride we have been on is driving me crazy. We need more consistency in the writing and less filler episode. There is such a wealth of material for them to use. I say again UGH! Lets focus on the task at hand. Demon tablet, Heaven tablet, missing Castiel, ailing Sammy, worried Dean, Kevin??? Benny??? Gates to hell closing?

   Pick a topic any topic and write an episode worthy of the fandom. Not this stuff trying to pass as a story, it goes no where.

   Thanks for letting me vent.

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   1. You are so right. Adam Glass lives down to his name yet again (not that he’s exactly alone).

      And roller coaster is exactly right – a heartbreaking lack of consistency and little competence in managing story quality/excitement from episode to episode. It’s as if there’s no collaboration, that the scripts are written in isolation and references to the plot arc are popped in after the fact.

      With so much to fall back on (men of letters, etc) this limp ep is hard to excuse.

      Sad to say, but I actually fell asleep while watching (first time ever on SPN!).

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      1. Sad to say, but I actually fell asleep while watching (first time ever on SPN!).[/quote]

         Right there with you. Fell asleep watching SPN? Never ever thought that would happen.

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5. Personally, I hope to never see Adam again unless they save him and then kill him off. But, I get that it would be natural to want to save him. I just don’t want a show about 3 Winchester brothers. Also, I’m not sure how Benny will help get someone out of hell. I thought if he died, he’d go to Purgatory. How would he get into Hell to help? Well, it looks pretty scary for both guys, having Sam go back to Hell again.

   I’m not sure about Crowley and Naomi yet, but I think Naomi is an angel. Crowley could be another fallen angel, like Lucifer, too.

   I’m looking forward to that episode. This one was not bad, but I pretty much agreed with your bullet points. I did recognize the actor who played the Skinwalker as the store clerk. That was interesting.

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   1. If Sam rescues Adam, I suspect he will simply release Adam’s soul to heaven and we will never hear from Adam again. That would be great for me. I don’t like the dangling thread of Adam in the Cage and I don’t want or need Adam back alive. Save his soul, get him back to his mom and move on.

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      1. Same here, [b]Percysowner[/b], the dangling thread of Adam still being trapped in the Cage has been bothering me since S6. I know that Sam and Dean didn’t know him very well but he was family, and they’ve done a lot to save people they’re not related to and that they knew even less well. I’ve always thought it was a plothole that needed sorting out.

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6. Is anyone else afraid that all the talk of kids and family was foreshadowing a pregnant Amelia? I for one sincerely hope they don’t go there. What do you all think?

   Nice speculations by the way! I certainly think that Crowley is a special type a creature we haven’t quite met yet and perhaps Naomi is as well. There was mention of “special” angels in As Time Goes By. Could that be what they are?

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   1. Minke,
      I thought the same thing when Victor was talking to Sam about having kids.

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      1. Please, no, but yeah probably.

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   2. I’ve dismissed all the previous fandom talk about Amelia’s possible pregnancy before, but this episode sent up a giant red flag.

      I have to wonder what was even the purpose of this episode, if not all the talk about kids and family and Sam wanting normal. That leads me to believe that Carver would go there, given how much he has already changed the tone of the show.

      I also have to wonder if Carver or any of these writers realize that the basic premise of the show is … two brothers hunting evil and saving people. With Sam’s constant, “I want normal” and his promise to drag Dean’s cute little butt there with him, I wonder if the basic premise is being thrown out along with the tone.

      Sorry, I have no speculations to offer, since I can’t see much logic in plotting, pacing, characterization, or continuity, and I don’t know which plot the writers will finally decide to settle on for the few remaining episodes left. Only five to go and one of them is a one-off with another recurring guest star.

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      1. I can’t see the logic in the pacing, characterization or continuity either Ginger. I’m starting to toy with the unthinkable, that they are planning on reducing Sam’s role next season or writing him out completely. I know he has a contract and I know that these contracts can usually be broken by the show if they want. I know I’m being ridiculous and paranoid. I completely expect Alice or one of the other mods to tell me I’m way off base. But the constant refrain of how Sam wants normal yadda, yadda. The introduction of Benny the Better Brother. Dean apparently turning to Benny because he thinks Sam is too stupid and weak to save himself AND bumping up Cas to regular status has me seeing ways Sam could be eased out of the show. Add to all this the (what I consider character assassination) of Sam and the determination that he is completely and totally wrong every single time AND with Carver stating that he can’t keep track of everything Sam has been through leads me to believe that Sam is expendable to the writers. If nothing else, they seem to have no idea where to go with him or how to give him any POV except “I want normal”, which I can accept, except then he has no part in the show.

         And yes, I know I’m wrong. I’m also frustrated.

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         1. I found dismissing Sam out of scenes because Dean had to talk with Krissy well I was embarrassed for Sam I will not lie . It was a odd episode and I do understand Dean it seems is the only one that is capable of having bonds with characters and the little sister vibe they were going for with this however as I recall was not Sam the one who originally went to help Krissy and her Dad and yet none of that seems to be acknowledeged .

            I know I have said this before even back in season 4 and since but weird I just find how Sam is written weird on this show .

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         2. Plz.. Don’t say like that. Sam is one of the main character of the show. Carver may be the show runner but it doesn’t matter what is his preference. Sam will be forever in SPN right??
            Now I am having nightmares of the show without Sam and it is horrible and awkward.

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            1. Sam will forever be in SPN witch22…please don’t fret. As long as there is a show, there will be the Winchester brothers. This is what SPN is about. I know I tend to be on the optimistic side and I know many disagree with how I see the show – but I’m beyond optimistic about this.

            2. No, it’s just me being very unhappy. I’m sure Sam will be on the show until the end.

            3. [quote]Plz.. Don’t say like that. Sam is one of the main character of the show. Carver may be the show runner but it doesn’t matter what is his preference. Sam will be forever in SPN right??
               Now I am having nightmares of the show without Sam and it is horrible and awkward.[/quote]

               [quote]Plz.. Don’t say like that. Sam is one of the main character of the show. Carver may be the show runner but it doesn’t matter what is his preference. Sam will be forever in SPN right??
               Now I am having nightmares of the show without Sam and it is horrible and awkward.[/quote]

               This is a show about Sam and Dean Winchester; if either of them leaves, the show ends. Can’t see either of them doing that; I read they are signed on thru Season 10 and neither of them appears to be the type of person that would break a commitment like that.

         3. Percy, oh man, I’m trying really hard not to get paranoid now too! But, since I wrote a rather long, and hopefully reasonably logical post below about why I don’t think there will be a baby on the show, maybe I can follow suit here.

            All this talk about kids and normal, my gut reaction to it is more that they’re talking endgame, or foreshadowing what we might see in Sam and Dean’s future once we do get to the final episode (will there ever be a day when I don’t mentally and physically cringe at typing that???).
            So, just like I can’t see them introducing kids now, I think it would be even more ridiculous for them to reduce Sam’s role in the show or, Chuck, Crowley and stunt-demon #3 forbid, write him out completely.
            This isn’t CSI where they have so many cast members no one really cares who they kill off (although, that didn’t work for Grissom, either), or Two and a Half Men where they somehow managed to keep the show going even after killing off Charlie(though, again that hasn’t actually worked either, IMO).
            Anyway, there’s no way that SPN can keep going if they wrote Sam or Dean out. I can’t imagine that fans wouldn’t leave in droves. I know I would. Sam and Dean are not negotiable to me.
            I just don’t see why they would take that risk when the show’s still going fine. It’s still possible we’ll go to 10 seasons. So I can’t see why they might risk putting everyone out of a job before time. Like I said below, to what end? What benefit could they possibly reap by doing that, other than pleasing those fans that want Sam out of the show (I know they exist)?
            Unless Jared has expressed a wish to leave, or to spend less time working on the show, I don’t know why they would do it. And even then, if one of thems wants to leave (which as far as I know they don’t), why not just pack up and call it a day?
            So yeah, here’s me logicking my way out of this one, too. I hope I’m right. 😕
            Okay, now I definitely need to get back to work. Maybe.

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            1. I’m sure you are right. Sam isn’t going anywhere.

         4. [quote]…. I’m starting to toy with the unthinkable, that they are planning on reducing Sam’s role next season or writing him out completely. I know he has a contract and I know that these contracts can usually be broken by the show if they want.[/quote]

            I know you’re frustrated Percy and I really feel for you and how unhappy you are with certain aspects of the storyline and how they are affecting you this season. I know that must be hard for you. It’s tough when the show you love, disappoints.

            But one thing I know, I respect Jared Padalecki and his enthusiasm and love of this show. I respect him not to bulls**t us or blow smoke up our collective asses. He seems like a very straight up guy to me. He says he’s committed to the show and signed through to season 10. He says he still enjoys making the show. I don’t think he’d say the things he does if he was intending on breaking his contract and walking away. These two guys have way too much integrity for that.

            The iteration of the normal life thing is interesting though…I think I might be brewing a theory about it (one I’m not sure I like), which I might pontificate on at some point, though I’m crap at theories, that’s Ardeospina’s turf!

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            1. Oh, I know Sam isn’t really leaving, but he feels very marginalized this year. I was just venting and I’ll stop now.

            2. How can Sam be marginalized when he is the one going through the three tests? He always is needed for his particular input to the episode-without him Dean would have nothing.

            3. Sweetondean,
               Jared has also said, in the past, that it’s not his job to worry about fan reaction, it’s his job to bring to life the Sam that is written on the page. He’s the actor, not the writer.
               In that respect, I’m sure he’s still enjoying the show and loyal to it. I agree that he isn’t going anywhere before the show ends.
               ETA: That’s probably all I have to comment on the episode. It didn’t anger me, but neither did it engage me in any way.

            4. I just want to point out if, God forbid, Sam gets written off the show- it will not be [b]Jared [/b]who breaks the contract. As you said, he is happy to be playing Sam, as he should be.
               The upside is, if the writers find it boring or difficult to write dialogue for Sam, or maybe they do write stuff for Sam and the higher ups want it cut- even if all that’s true- I seriously doubt that TPTB would provoke the wrath of the notorious SPN fandom by breaking Jared’s contract before the show is over.

            5. I don’t really think that they are trying to write Sam off the show, I don’t think that they realize how it looks to us who are trying to work out what on earth they are doing this season.

               They have a whole bunch of cutesy things they can do with Dean that work – having him be into the same porn as a gay girl, have him be comic relief with another character, Dean gets on well with kids, he does have a link with Castiel that Sam doesn’t have and the angst that can be put into his dealings with Benny is endless.

               All of this is just fine. Great. But then they only have a 40 minute episode sooooo… well we have to decide who Sam is. Let’s leave it until next time. So Sam is all like ‘the facts Ma’am, just the facts’.

               In spite of what I said about the guest stars maybe having restraining orders against Jared or something, I don’t really think this is being done on purpose by the writers. I just wish they would notice and do something about it.

            6. Yep, [b]eilf[/b], the attempted reboot (or retconning) of Sam’s character in the early part of S8 seems to be what the writers this year think will serve as character development for Sam. I, personally, feel like I learned feck all from Sam’s flashbacks and didn’t feel like his year with the grumpy Vet did much for his characterisation.

               I know Sam has the trials to complete (which could be interesting if it’s done right) but I’m not getting much of a feeling that the trials are being used to give him much in the way of character development 😐 I hope that changes.

               You’re right about the cutesy things they do with Dean, and I’d love them to do a few less cutesy things and a few more substantial things with Dean i.e. could we find out more about his PTSD from being in Purgatory, how he really feels after the dodgy things Cas has done to them, for Naomi, this year. I prefer it when they write a more serious and less goofy Dean.

            7. I realized after I posted that ‘cutesy’ was probably the wrong word to use. I meant it in the context of getting Dean to do things the fans find cute, it wasn’t meant to be dismissive, it is a significant amount of the appeal of the show (for both / all three of the main characters).

               I think that we actually unlearned about Sam because they seem to have taken away a lot of the stuff we (and apparently Jared) thought we knew about him…

               EDIT: the last paragraph here was just borrowing trouble, so I am removing it and giving the benefit of the doubt 😀

               (And now I really am done complaining and will save my breath to cool my tea.)

            8. Apparently they wanted to give Sam a human problem but now want him to do the trials and it is affecting him on a sub-atomic level .

               They still have him being about normal but he is doing Supernatural trials. I thought when he decided in Torn and Frayed and stayed in hunting and Dean that we were moving away from it otherwise why have him decide , he could of stayed with Amelia or gone to college . And the MOL’s gives him a purpose that I thought he needed but I dont feel we are any futher forward than we were at the begining of the season .

            9. [b]Sharon[/b], thanks for articulating what I was trying to say in my post upstream. Your description of what they’re doing with Sam’s character is a good description of why I’m feeling confused about Sam this year.

               I’m glad they’ve sort of rebooted Dean a bit, in that he’s no longer drinking and depressed. I’m also glad that they’ve made some steps towards making the brothers friends again, rather than just guys who hunt together. But on the whole, I’m not sure the writers are all that good at understanding or writing Sam and Dean this year. Things feel disjointed and not entirely connected.

            10. Personally I kinda liked SG’s characterization of Sam, it just seemed the story was a bit lacking. Least she tried to keep him to the personality we had grown accustomed to, even though there wasn’t any character growth.
                This Season (although i’ma loving it) has completely changed Sam’s character. Like [b]CIAR [/b] said ‘i learned feck all from Sam’s flashbacks’ the flashbacks were long and tedious, i tuned out some of them, and Amelia was boring as hell.
                We are getting nothing about why he turned from hunting? Why he [i]suddenly[/i] wants a normal life? (Its getting forced down our throat often enough) It seems like they have tried to reboot Sam character, failed at it, realized this and have nothing to fall back on, no ‘plan B’. So lets just shove Sam to the side, because we have no clue what to do with him.
                I do hope the trials offer much more to Sam’s character, maybe i little nod to his time spent in hell, or some of the demons they have killed throughout the years, i’d even take evil or soulless Sam back right now!…because at the moment he just seems to be walking around on auto pilot..Rant over! ; ) x

            11. [quote]Personally I kinda liked SG’s characterization of Sam, it just seemed the story was a bit lacking. Least she tried to keep him to the personality we had grown accustomed to, even though there wasn’t any character growth.

                This Season (although i’ma loving it) has completely changed Sam’s character. Like [b]CIAR [/b] said ‘i learned feck all from Sam’s flashbacks’ the flashbacks were long and tedious, i tuned out some of them, and Amelia was boring as hell.
                We are getting nothing about why he turned from hunting? Why he [i]suddenly[/i] wants a normal life? (Its getting forced down our throat often enough) It seems like they have tried to reboot Sam character, failed at it, realized this and have nothing to fall back on, no ‘plan B’. So lets just shove Sam to the side, because we have no clue what to do with him.

                I do hope the trials offer much more to Sam’s character, maybe i little nod to his time spent in hell, or some of the demons they have killed throughout the years, i’d even take evil or soulless Sam back right now!…because at the moment he just seems to be walking around on auto pilot..Rant over! ; ) x[/quote]

                Know how you feel. I also preferred Sera’s characterisation of Sam (and I found Soulless!Sam v interesting), Carver’s version of Sam doesn’t interest me as much; he confuses me because he’s inconsistent with his past self and, to be frank, with his current S8 self (from episode to episode, I’m never sure which Sam will turn up).

            12. I actually liked Soulless!Sam as well and I definitely felt Sam fared better under SG than under Carver. At least he had feelings and got to express them now and then. Things fell apart a bit for me the last half of season 7 when it became obvious that the hallucinations and trauma of the Cage was never going to be dealt with and then was magiced away. But I felt that Sam’s character had a continuity that I don’t feel any more.

            13. [quote]I actually liked Soulless!Sam as well and I definitely felt Sam fared better under SG than under Carver. At least he had feelings and got to express them now and then. Things fell apart a bit for me the last half of season 7 when it became obvious that the hallucinations and trauma of the Cage was never going to be dealt with and then was magiced away. But I felt that Sam’s character had a continuity that I don’t feel any more.[/quote]

                Yes, I was miffed when the hallucinations and trauma of the Cage weren’t really dealt with and were just magicked away. I had been really hoping for some angsty scenes in which Sam dealt with what had happened to him and Dean helped Sam through it all. And you’re right when you say that Soulless!Sam had continuity all the way back to S1 Sam, which is why I’m finding it hard to understand S8 Sam because I don’t feel that sense of continuity 🙁

            14. I don’t really think they will write Sam off the show, but the treatment of his character has been odd, IMHO. They divorce him from the brotherly bond by making him not look for Dean and not happy when Dean returns. They remind us at every turn that he doesn’t want to be hunting with means he doesn’t want to be with Dean. They keep bringing back the “I want normal” Sam who died, again IMHO, somewhere in season 4. And they made a clear statement that Benny was a better brother than Sam (No, I’m never forgiving or forgetting that one). You can argue that Dean didn’t really mean it, but the writers made damn sure to but the idea out there, that there is one if not more (counting Cas) better alternatives as a brother for Dean. The second half of the season seemed to be righting the brotherly bond, although almost solely by having Dean do a 180 on his previous position on Sam and normal and doing nothing with Sam. Now, Sam is being left out more and more.

                The previews show
                SPOILER

                Dean begging Benny to help save Sam. For years the complaint has been that Sam gets the mytharc but not the POV. Now Sam still gets no POV, but he is also being shown as a complete incompetent at handling the mytharc. He has been made weak and completely unnecessary to Dean. I honestly don’t know why Dean wants him around, what Sam contributes to the relationship. And I really do LOVE Sam. This entire season has seemed TO ME as being a way of destroying Sam as a useful character in the world of Supernatural. There are lots of ways to write Sam out while putatively having him in the story. Sending him out of the room when Dean talks to Charlie and Krissy and Cas and Benny or knocking Sam out while Dean, Cas, Benny, guest star of the week handle the bad guys, keeps Jared’s name in the credits, Sam on the show and Sam as the least important character on Supernatural, and that includes, Meg, Crowley and the guest star of the week. Sam is rapidly becoming less important then the person who dies at the beginning of the show to start the new case.

            15. [quote]They remind us at every turn that he doesn’t want to be hunting with means he doesn’t want to be with Dean.[/quote] Gotta be honest with you, percysowner, this confuses me. Why does Sam not wanting to hunt mean he doesn’t want to be with Dean? It’s hunting he doesn’t want to be a part of. Dean and hunting are two separate entities.

                Plus, if Sam doesn’t want to hunt and Dean does, then doesn’t that also mean that Dean doesn’t want to be with Sam?

            16. I actually think that there is a lot of evidence supporting the idea that Dean only wants Sam when Sam is hunting and doesn’t want Sam when he is normal. The show, however, has always shown Dean’s feelings of abandonment when Sam wants something outside of Dean. It has also always come down on the side of hunting is best. This season, Sam cavalierly told Dean to hunt by himself or find another partner and we got more of Dean’s feeling rejected and the reactions I saw were highly skewed toward the idea that Sam just didn’t care about Dean. This was true in season 1 where we were shown that Dean felt Sam having a normal life meant they wouldn’t be brothers again, instead of Dean allowing for the fact that Dean could visit Sam, spend vacations with him, heck set up a home base wherever Sam settled. But the show never offered any compromise and has consistently portrayed Sam as wrong to not want to live the life Dean does. I’m going with the narrative that the show is giving us, not with what I actually think about how a real relationship would function.

            17. Feel free to enter my turf and theorize away. The more theories the better, I say!

   3. Is there anyone who didn’t get the shivers at the talk of kids?

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      1. [b]justLeah[/b], I got *massive* shivers at the talk of kids (in combination with Amelia being mentioned last week). DO NOT WANT!

         I’m cheesed off with Carver’s attempt to reboot Sam Winchester. I don’t understand why Carver is fixated on old character traits that Sam got over years ago. For years, Sam has been committed to hunting with Dean and now, this year, that’s not the case any more…this is incredibly frustrating!

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         1. [quote][b]justLeah[/b], I got *massive* shivers at the talk of kids (in combination with Amelia being mentioned last week). DO NOT WANT!

            I’m cheesed off with Carver’s attempt to reboot Sam Winchester. I don’t understand why Carver is fixated on old character traits that Sam got over years ago. For years, Sam has been committed to hunting with Dean and now, this year, that’s not the case any more…this is incredibly frustrating![/quote]
            So am I, ciar. It doesn’t make even one little bit of sense to me.

            I found this episode horrible and boring. I couldn’t stand the bratty kids and Victor was so bad he stunk up the episode. I don’t mean the actor. He was good as the doctor/shtriga. Just didn’t like him here. This was bad for even a filler episode.
            I don’t understand, either, why Sam has to leave the room so Dean can talk to the guest stars. Isn’t Sam one of the main charcters? Oh, yeah, he used to be. Just not to JC and the writers.

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            1. Yeah, [b]Jo[/b] I think it’s strange that Sam has to keep leaving rooms for Dean to have chats with guest characters. I’m very sure that the “leaving the room so the other brother can talk to someone” was split more evenly between Sam and Dean in past seasons.

               As for this episode, I didn’t think it was great and didn’t think it was awful; it felt purely like a filler episode. And I found it strange that Dean and Chrissy were written as having such a strong bond when it was Sam who’d spent most time with her last season 😮 I can see how the writers were pushing the similarities between her and Dean (and Dean’s nurturing, protective attitude towards kids) but she also had similarities with Sam, and those weren’t really looked at much.

            2. Even in the last episode Krissy bonded with Dean and not Sam. Sam answered her call for help. He went to confront the monster. When he got captured he taunted the monster into feeding on him to save Krissy’s father. Dean showed up only when he found out Sam was missing. Yet at the end of the day Krissy was gushing thanks to Dean while Sam was off screen not being thanked by anyone. I haven’t seen the episode yet and may not watch at all, but I have no problem with the idea that Krissy bonds with Dean and not Sam.

            3. Ah, that explains something: I misremembered the plot of the first Krissy episode and thought Sam spent more time with her than he actually did 😳

               However, poor Sam, not being thanked for volunteering to let the monsters feed on him to save Krissy’s Dad 🙁

               Maybe, and this is a wild stab in the dark here, Sam isn’t that interested in hanging out with Krissy etc. They’ve shown him not being comfortable or good with kids in the past (most recently in Remember The Titans), perhaps they were trying to show that Dean is the brother with the most childcare experience (gained through raising Sam)?

            4. ciar, perhaps it is deliberate. That would kind of make sense. But it doesn’t bode well for the not having kids thing. Because why would they make a point of it, unless it was going to be an issue in the future. I’m starting to get really worried that Amelia is pregnant and I’m for them both having kids in the future but I don’t see how it could work on the show. But they easily could just be messing with us.

            5. Kelly, I really don’t think(hope) that they would introduce kids to the show before it’s over. I was thinking more foreshadowing of what might happen in the future, not necessarily while the show is still on.

            6. PaintedWolf, you’re probably right. I think they probably are just messing with us. Kids are so inconvenient on a show with a lot of danger, especially babies. I’m just nervous because shows I love have gone there before and then they just have to get rid of the inconvenient baby someway. Adoption seems to be the preferred method.

               But here’s my wackadoodle not thought out theory of the day. I think there are two different manipulators at play on the show right now. One who wants Sam to hunt and one who is manipulating Sam not to hunt by putting dogs and cranky vets in his path and making him think that Dean is dead so why bother looking. And now that the trials are ratcheting up they are going to make Sam think Amelia is pregnant so he doesn’t risk himself on the last trial or something to that effect.

      2. [quote]Is there anyone who didn’t get the shivers at the talk of kids?[/quote]

         Shivers? I was visibly cringing…I really hope they don’t decide to go down that route with Sam’s character. Sam Winchester is famous for not really being great with kids haha.
         I didn’t really like the Amelia story-line and i had my fingers crossed that when Sam failed to show up at the hotel room, that she was gone for good! So were a lot of other fans.
         Even Jared Padalecki said he thought the Amelia story-line was weak, so why drag it up again.. and again…and again. x

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         1. [quote][quote]Is there anyone who didn’t get the shivers at the talk of kids?[/quote]

            Shivers? I was visibly cringing…I really hope they don’t decide to go down that route with Sam’s character. Sam Winchester is famous for not really being great with kids haha.

            I didn’t really like the Amelia story-line and i had my fingers crossed that when Sam failed to show up at the hotel room, that she was gone for good! So were a lot of other fans.
            Even Jared Padalecki said he thought the Amelia story-line was weak, so why drag it up again.. and again…and again. x[/quote]

            Ahhhh. I avoid reading interviews with the actors etc but you mentioning Jared not being entirely enamoured of the Amelia storyline makes sense, now that I think about it: he’s a great actor but he never convinced me with his acting in the FB scenes. I was confused by his acting style, perhaps his feelings for the storyline bled through into his performance? Of course, I could be projecting my dislike for the storyline onto his performance 😉

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            1. [quote][quote][quote]Is there anyone who didn’t get the shivers at the talk of kids?[/quote]

               Shivers? I was visibly cringing…I really hope they don’t decide to go down that route with Sam’s character. Sam Winchester is famous for not really being great with kids haha.

               I didn’t really like the Amelia story-line and i had my fingers crossed that when Sam failed to show up at the hotel room, that she was gone for good! So were a lot of other fans.
               Even Jared Padalecki said he thought the Amelia story-line was weak, so why drag it up again.. and again…and again. x[/quote]

               Ahhhh. I avoid reading interviews with the actors etc but you mentioning Jared not being entirely enamoured of the Amelia storyline makes sense, now that I think about it: he’s a great actor but he never convinced me with his acting in the FB scenes. I was confused by his acting style, perhaps his feelings for the storyline bled through into his performance? Of course, I could be projecting my dislike for the storyline onto his performance ;-)[/quote]

               [b]ciar[/b] I thought that too, how could such a great actor in other scenes be terrible in others. I dreaded the flashback scenes, he just didn’t seem have his heart in the performance. Surely the writers realize that if the main stars doesn’t like a story-line, and is upfront about it, it must be weak.

            2. I’m gonna have to disagree with this, at least in part. I DO Gree that Sam seemed off or odd in the flashbacks, but I am not ready to put that off onto a lack of commitment on Jared’s part just yet. I think that he is too much of a professional to allow something like a personal preference to show through. His job is to commit to what he’s doing, and its MO that he did here as he always does. I am putting the awkwardness of the scenes down to either directing choices (he was directed to be vague or out of sorts) the writing (i mean there wasn’t much for him to actually play in those scenes) or to a revelation that has yet to come about his time with Amelia that we don’t know about yet.

            3. I agree with you, E.
               I am not prepared to put this down to JP suddenly not committed to the role, or forgetting how to play Sam or whatever other nonsensical choices there could be.
               Also, consider that the first episode filmed this season (8.03) had JA for director, and Sam was REALLY off in that one – It’s the “hunt without me” & “It’s a birthday cake” episode, where we all started thinking Sam had tried suicide like the athlete guy. So there’s no way that BOTH JA and JP would have intentionally let bad acting slide – They’re BOtH way too professional for that.

               I have to believe that JP was told to play Sam in that manner. He’s been able to play Sam in lots of different ways before, and pulled them all off.

               I’m still just waiting for the explanation.

            4. I chime in and say that I doubt it had anything to do with JP. He has acted all sides of Sam just fine. The fact that he has stated that he thinks it was OOC for Sam to not look for Dean, makes me think that Sam’s odd behavior wasn’t his acting choice, but something he was directed to do.

               [quote]I’m still just waiting for the explanation.[/quote]

               I hope we get one, but I’m honestly not expecting it at this point. That boat has sailed and they have suddenly stepped up Sam’s desire for normal so I think they just reset Sam to season one factory settings and we are supposed to move on and think that normal is more important to Sam than Dean is.

            5. E and st50, I completely agree. JP is way too much of a professional and both he and JA have said they will call each other out if a something isn’t working and that is even when Jensen wasn’t directing

   4. First off, I just wanna point out that this is only my opinion, and I may be way off base, but here I go:

      Maybe it’s just my own biases talking here since I have zero interest in seeing a baby on the show, but to me, it just doesn’t make any logical sense that they would introduce a young child or baby as a regular character to the show, unless they’re thinking of it as a possible endgame scenario where they eventually show the Sam and Dean happily ever after with wife and kids (personally I’d probably prefer a more open-ended finale, but it’s not the worst idea, even though I think it’s been terribly overdone on TV).

      Anyway, the reason I can’t imagine them going through with this scenario before the show ends, is because I’ve heard many times that children and animals are difficult to work with. In fact, in a local soap recently, there was uproar amongst fans when a popular character got into a car accident and lost her unborn baby (They only went through with the pregnancy story in the first place to accommodate the actress who was pregnant in real life). After many complaints from fans, one of the producers released a statement that said they decided to have the character lose her baby for exactly that reason-because it would have been a logistical effort that they weren’t prepared to take up. And since the character is so popular, no one would have accepted them never showing the baby onscreen again once it was born. It seems a little bit of a callous response, yes, but I guess they had to consider that.
      Now if a producer of a soap thinks it’s difficult to have a child onscreen, I would imagine it would be much tougher for a show like Supernatural that, by its very nature, isn’t a good place for kids and babies, unless someone stays behind in the Batcave to look after the kid. It’s not like the brothers could take a baby on hunts with them. Not to mention the fact that I doubt many people would want to watch that version of Show. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t.

      It’s just, to me, I can’t believe Carver would be willing to take a risk as huge as that and take the chance of alienating what I’d imagine would be a large portion of the fandom. To what end would that be a good idea? And what could a baby possibly add to the storyline that could be worth that risk?

      Don’t get me wrong, I’m not opposed to the idea of Sam and Dean getting their happily ever after, but the keyword here is after. After the show, not before it ends. I’m open to most ideas and I’ve always liked the fact they take risks, but I’m not sure a risk like that would pay off.

      So, I don’t know, I just don’t see it happening, unless they’re thinking next season is the last (NOOOOOO!!!). Then again, I don’t see why they would because Carver has already spoken about season 10, and if CW gives us a season 10, it means we get our 200th episode. They wouldn’t let the show end without giving us 200 episodes, would they? Right, I’ll stop rambling now.

      If they want to do it though, then I’m willing to let them have at it, and I’d give it a fair chance, but they would seriously have to play it right to make it work, I think.

      Right, so now that I’ve tried to be all rational and everything, I think I should actually attempt to get back to work.

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   5. [quote]Is anyone else afraid that all the talk of kids and family was foreshadowing a pregnant Amelia? I for one sincerely hope they don’t go there. What do you all think?

      no, not at all. as a matter of fact i saw there actually being a point to this eppy.

      i smiled when victor asked sam if he had kids. sam’s like no, but jared has this beautiful little man at home, and i’m here talking to the tv…yeah he has a kid. 😆

      but what i feel the point of this eppy was is this…

      we all know that in the beginning sam always desired normal and since he was about to propose to jess, i took it to mean sam wanted a family of his own.

      in s5, swap meat, dean asked sam if he thought about having kids and a family…but sadly, after everything, sam told dean it wasn’t his life anymore. so sam had lost his desire for normal and a family.

      but as we’ve all seen this season, sam has a renewed desired for a normal life and this desire has motivated him to want to hunt again. he has a new goal and a purpose…..a long term goal.

      after last night’s eppy i’m convinced that part of the normal sam desires is children. i feel now that it’s not only about life without demons, but he actually wants to carry on the winchester name. i think sam sees now that the winchester bloodline doesn’t have to end with him and dean. that they could have a life beyond hunting and have children of their own, not just sam….but dean as well. as we’ve seen in s5, dean has a yearning to have children as well. it’s just now i don’t think he sees it as a possibility for himself, where sam actually does…for himself and his brother.

      i’m not worried at all about a pregnant someone. i think the message here is that sam now sees the possibility to have a family of his own one day, when all is said and done with whoever he finds love with. amelia is a dead and gone issue not to be concerned about…he’s thinking about his future not his past.

      i believe now, after watching sam with victor last night that sam has that extra incentive for survival and succeeding in these trials which he will definitely be needing if you watched the promo for next week. that is what i saw as the point of this entire eppy.

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      1. Lovely post, nappi815. I’m all warm hearted now. 😀

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      2. [quote]
         after last night’s eppy i’m convinced that part of the normal sam desires is children. i feel now that it’s not only about life without demons, but he actually wants to carry on the winchester name. i think sam sees now that the winchester bloodline doesn’t have to end with him and dean. that they could have a life beyond hunting and have children of their own, not just sam….but dean as well. as we’ve seen in s5, dean has a yearning to have children as well. it’s just now i don’t think he sees it as a possibility for himself, where sam actually does…for himself and his brother.

         i’m not worried at all about a pregnant someone. i think the message here is that sam now sees the possibility to have a family of his own one day, when all is said and done with whoever he finds love with. amelia is a dead and gone issue not to be concerned about…he’s thinking about his future not his past.

         i believe now, after watching sam with victor last night that sam has that extra incentive for survival and succeeding in these trials which he will definitely be needing if you watched the promo for next week. that is what i saw as the point of this entire eppy.[/quote]

         nappi, I do think this has be at least part of it and I hope you’re right that it was the only point.

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7. I think there was ab opportunity here to make an emotional connection, but it wasn’t used. There could have been a FB to the Winchesters growing up – or even just discussion about it between them – but there was no emotional connection made for the viewers because we (or at least I) never had that connection to Krissy or the other kids, so the whole thing was kind of flat. Won’t make the rewatch list.

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8. I rather liked it. I like Krissy, she is tough, and it is like the little sister Dean never wanted. ha I liked how they are showing the boys being closer by the banter in the car, like in the early seasons, good set up for the nail-bitter episode coming up next week, can’t wait!!

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   1. I totally agree with all this. It was a great episode, maybe a bit predictable, but having all the elements I love in a SPN ep- scary scenes, brotherly banter, and an uplifting message. I couldn’t be more pleased!

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9. “Re: the preview: An innocent soul has to be saved from Hell? Sam’s gonna get Adam, right? RIGHT?!?!? I really hope he gets Adam because that boy does not deserve to be down there.”

   I’ve convinced myself that it’s Bobby Singer. Took a screencap of the preview when Sam is opening the door and it sure looks like Bobby. What if Crowley never completely lifted the deal that gave him possession of Bobby’s soul?

   [img]http://i.imgur.com/bfd7Fcc.png[/img]

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   1. OMG – don’t get my hopes up…it DOES look like Bobby. Could it be? No…it’s too good to be true! :/

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   2. That no way looks like Bobby, the long leather jacket and the hair make it look likes its might be Dean but unless they time travel to pull a soul from hell then my guess is it will be Adam.

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      1. Yeah, but is it just me, or when you look close, it looks like there might be a baseball cap on the person’s head?

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         1. Hi PaintedWolf, I think there is a cap. Don’t think it is Dean cause he doesn’t have big ol’ hands like those appear to be! 🙂

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      2. Well I desperately want it to be Dean. If Carver cares more about Dean’s backstory than Sam’s (the one he said was too complicated to deal with), then Dean did say repeatedly in season four that he felt he left part of himself in Hell when he was returned. So Sam could be saving that part of Dean, giving Dean some normal back as well. But I think it’s Bobby, because no one cares about Adam really and I can’t see them making someone we’ve never seen and don’t care about the rescuee.

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         1. Dean saving part of himself left behind in Hell would be really intriguing but I think it would be too meta for this writing team to get involved in 🙁

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         2. [quote]If Carver cares more about Dean’s backstory than Sam’s (the one he said was too complicated to deal with)
            [/quote]

            I’m sorry but I tire of this being misquoted. Carver never said that Sam’s backstory was “too complicated to deal with.” Just like he never said he cares more for Dean’s backstory than Sam’s. [b]This [/b]is what he said:

            [i]”One of the things that struck me, and I think it’s almost inevitable when you’re doing a genre show, is sometimes a show gets buried under the weight of its own mythology. And particularly with the brothers, if you zero in on someone like Sam, that guy has so much stuff — the wall’s up, the wall’s down. It gets a little confusing, even to me as I was catching up, exactly what is happening. So I think one of the things I thought was maybe we can pull back on the mythology and instead start a new myth story this year. Obviously we’re not disregarding anything from the past, but at least from the get-go, we’re starting everyone off on a new ride that hopefully lasts two, three, whatever many seasons.”[/i]

            [url]http://www.givememyremote.com/remote/2012/10/01/supernatural-jeremy-carver-on-season-8-having-an-endgame-and-more/[/url]

            Yes, Carver admitted that some of Sam’s backstory re: the mythology was “a little confusing” (isn’t it for all of us? He’s been on quite the ride since S5). Notice, however, that he [i]didn’t[/i] say it was “too complicated to deal with.”

            Nor did he say he didn’t care for Sam’s backstory. In fact, him saying he wanted to “pull back on the mythology a bit” with Sam and take things in a fresh direction suggest that he cares very much about Sam’s character.

            Nor did he suggest that the plan was to ignore the backstory. In fact, he made it a point to say, “Obviously we’re not disregarding anything from the past.”

            My point: It’s one thing to disagree with creative direction of the show, but it’s another to misquote the people who are putting so much time and effort into it.

            As a less-grumpy sidenote, Carver also said this when asked if he had any idea if Bobby would return in S8:

            [i]”Do I have an idea? I have a notion. It’s not quite an idea. I love Jim, so any opportunity to get Jim Beaver back, I’d jump at.”[/i]

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            1. *lip quivers *

               But, but, but…I *like* the mythology of Sam and his complicated backstory. I don’t want Carver to dial back on previous mythology and take the characters “on a new ride” if it involves a change in Sam’s character whereby he spends a lot of the next few seasons looking for a normal life. I’m watching this show *because* it really has very little to do with normal life, I want to be diverted from thinking about normal life. I don’t want to watch Sam Winchester arguing with his girlfriend, doing the weekly grocery shopping, and doing tax returns 😉 😉 I want him hunting with his big brother, and them both being on the fringes of society, working in the shadows to keep the normal folk safe. As far as I can see, Carver’s vision for Sam seems to be to attempt to integrate normal life and hunting. Kripke’s vision for Sam was to show that integrating a normal life with hunting wasn’t possible. I definitely prefer Kripke’s vision

               *pouts*

            2. ciar,

               Well, in 18 episodes, has Carver shown “Sam Winchester arguing with his girlfriend, doing the weekly grocery shopping, and doing tax returns”? No, in fact he’s given Sam the major task of closing the Gates of Hell. I think THAT’S the new mythology, the new direction, he was speaking of. I think Amelia was merely a [i]vehicle [/i]to get us to this point.

            3. That and the MOL storyline.

            4. [quote]ciar,

               Well, in 18 episodes, has Carver shown “Sam Winchester arguing with his girlfriend, doing the weekly grocery shopping, and doing tax returns”? No, in fact he’s given Sam the major task of closing the Gates of Hell. I think THAT’S the new mythology, the new direction, he was speaking of. I think Amelia was merely a [i]vehicle [/i]to get us to this point.[/quote]

               Not fair, [b]Bamboo[/b], you’re using facts and logic to counter my worries 😛 😛

               Yeah, my examples were OTT (but I was having a good old rant and trying to be a little bit absurd in my examples of things I wouldn’t want to see 😆 ) I like that there are the MOL and the Gate of Hell storylines; I hope that the writers choose to concentrate on those and we don’t have them concentrate on having Sam searching for (or pining for) a normal life. I hope you’re right with regards to Amelia’s role in this season onwards *crosses fingers, eyes, knees, toes in hope*

            5. [quote]I *like* the mythology of Sam and his complicated backstory. ……..

               I want to be diverted from thinking about normal life. ……..

               I want him hunting with his big brother, and them both being on the fringes of society, working in the shadows to keep the normal folk safe. [/quote]

               Me too, [b]ciar[/b]. Me too.

               Whether or not Amelia was a vehicle, [b]Bamboo24[/b], I really don’t like the reset to *wanting normal* as the motivation to hunt. The MoL stuff is good, shutting the gates of hell (while I think it’s going to backfire) is a good storyline, Purgatory was great (wish they’d done something more with that), but being slammed with this overwhelming desire for normality is just not what I want to see, and I wish they’d drop it.

               And go back and actually *resolve* the issues brought up in the first 10 episodes, not just bury them again. THAT would be allowing the characters to mature, in my mind.

               And yes, I know these are all just personal preferences, but there you go.

               (Apologies to all on the site. I keep promising myself to quit harping on these things…. *rolleyes*…. I’ll try to do better. Honest.)

            6. The normallity issue would made more sense IMO if this was the last season and it would of tied in then nicely with the Sam we first met. As it is not and we have probably two more seasons then I am not sure what the end game is with Sam right now?.

            7. Bamboo What fries me is that in ignoring Sam’s past experiences he is also ignoring a big chunk of who Sam is.
               People are the sum of ALL their experiences so to just reset Sam means to change who he has become.
               To me, it just feels lazy. Sam’s story is not at all confusing to the people who’ve watched from the beginning. At least I don’t find it that way. And the fact that so many people are complaining about JC’s reset of Sam’s character says that there are a lot of others who feel the same way.
               What he has said is just words. He need to actually show that he’s not ignoring Sam’s past. If he means what he said then he has gone about showing it the wrong way. In fact, I would say to this point he has failed miserably.

   3. From the extended preview it sounds like Bobby! I am so torn on this yet a little excited!

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   4. it is confirm… is Bobby! the reaper took him to hell

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      1. At least take some measures to hide this info in a spoiler tag! I didn’t want to know what was going to happen in advance :sigh:

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         1. [spoiler]Are the spoiler tags working yet?[/spoiler]

            Sadly the answer is no. So we need to not mention spoilers or at leas say Spoiler and then leave several spaces so others can avoid spoilers.

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            1. Good advice, percysowner! Thanks 🙂

10. Am I the only one who thinks John might be the innocent soul from hell? Think about it, going after Adam may damn well be suicide considering he’s stuck with not only Lucifer, but Michael as well. If Sam’s soul made it out in pieces, imagine what Adam’s must be by now.

    Also, this might be silly of me to ask but is Lucifer’s cage technically in hell?

    We know (for a fact?) that John Winchester’s’ soul is indeed in hell since he sold his for Dean’s sake. He doesn’t really belong in hell. What if the while deal is to save John’s soul from hell and send it to heaven where it belongs?
    Because remember when Dean and Sam took a trip to heaven to visit ffriends? Ash did mention that he couldn’t find niether of their parent’s soul up there….

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    1. I apologize for my grammer. My keyboard needs a backlight LOL

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    2. Not sure how it can be John since his soul is no longer in hell and it would require JDM to return and that aint gonna happen.

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    3. But in Season 2’s finale it was made pretty clear that John escaped from hell when Sam and Dean opened the hell gate; remember that floaty see-through John drifting away at the end of the episode? So I don’t think it can be John. It’s vague though, because he wasn’t in heaven (DSSotM) and Dean didn’t run across him in purgatory either. My hope and money is on Bobby…! I will be disappointed though, if its just some random “innocent” guy that we don’t know. I mean, that would work for the story telling, but it would be a HUGE missed opportunity IMO.

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    4. Didn’t John Winchester get out of hell in season 2 (I think) and help save Sam and Dean by holding Azaziel while Dean got the colt to shoot the demon? Then John vanished like most ghosts do-just a bunch of mist, then gone.

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11. I tweeted before the episode was over that I have a faint scent of a baby in S9. Just so many references in this episode. But not sure I want that to happen. Maybe at the very end only. Not sure about that either.

    First person I thought of in hell was Adam, but someone made a great point. His soul has to be a mess by now. And I kind of got the impression John went into the light at the end of AHBL 2. Am I the only one? How about their mom? Bobby? I don’t know.

    Happy speculating everyone. Next week will be a thriller. Excited to see Benny!!! After Vegas con I totally love Ty Olsson. If they kill him off I will sob for sure!

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12. Gianni, I could be wrong, but I thought John crawled out of hell in All Hell Breaks Loose Part II, and then went to heaven after helping Dean kill Azazel. And, I am pretty sure they have said in numerous episodes that Lucifer’s cage is in Hell. Remember Castiel saying he went to Hell to get Sam out of the cage and all the times Sam and Dean referred to it being in Hell?

    Whoever it is, I cannot wait for next week – that little preview has me intrigued!

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13. This episode was not half as bad as I was expecting it would be. In fact, it was actually pretty darn good, for filler.

    The teens weren’t as annoying as I expected them to be. Krissy was much better (and much more mature) the second time around.

    There was great continuity with mentions of the Leviathans, what happened last episode, and what may happen in the future. A very well-rounded episode.

    I was constantly in suspense trying to figure out what was going on – this was truly a mystery episode. Some compelling twists. And the bad guy was SO FREAKING BAD I couldn’t believe it.

    I thought Sam and Dean were both written well this episode. Loved the dynamic between Dean and Krissy, too. (Anybody see him as a potential father figure i.e. Bobby Singer to her, hm?)

    Nothing too special, but I give it a solid B. Looking forward to the next episode for sure!

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    1. I’d say B+, but other than that- I agree. I also like how they included the leviathans in the continuity.
       I particularly liked the end scene, because- as we had discussed before- we can see that Sam’s dedication to the job and Dean, is now rooted in his hope for both of them for the future. It’s a beautiful thing.

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       1. I agree with you guys, for me it was a B-. It was better than I expected. I kinda like Krissy. A lot of people don’t but I think she comes across strong and sassy, bordering on obnoxious but not quite there. People want more strong females. I think she would be a nice addition to the slowly widening circle of allies. She puts on a hard shell, like Dean does, because she is damaged in similar ways.

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14. Ugh, I’m sorry. I suck at details lol. I remember now that John went into the light. I saw the pic up above at it actually really does look like Bobby. I wouldn’t put it past Crowley to be that big of a d**k.
    But whoever it is, it seems like the mission went wrong and Sam’s “stuck in hell” now? And what does Benny have to do with that? I read a synopsys on twitter that Naomi went to Dean in a dream and asked/ordered him to find Benny for her.
    It could be Naomi brain washing Dean into thinking Benny can get Sam out? I’m thinking out loud here.

    PS:
    Parental guidance seems to be a big theme this episode. This all but puts the fear of Chuck in me if its foreshadowing.

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    1. Don’t apologize. Some of the writers are so creative that it would not stun me if everything I THINK I know is wrong. The Bobby idea is interesting – maybe he wound up there because he dodged his reaper? Of course, would be great if Adam was getting out and going to heaven too. So worried about poor Sam being trapped there again!

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       1. Well, you know, I don’t think we even know for sure where Bobby is, considering he was a ghost when Sam and Dean burnt the flask. No one’s ever said on this show where ghosts go once they’ve been salted and burned. I think Sam even said in Roadkill they don’t know for sure.

          It would be pretty intersting, I think, if it was Adam, cause he’s a loose thread that’s never really been tied up.

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    2. I very much doubt Sam will be stuck in hell considering in the very next episode is a filler episode with Charlie.

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15. This episode was just okay. Not bad. Not good.It felt a little flat emotionally. I enjoyed Dean’s scenes with Krissy and Sam and Dean’s s ens in the car was pretty funny. Saw alittle bit of bamf Dean this episode (snatching that boys gun. Didn’t he pull the same move with Krissy?)

    Crowley and Naomi may be something we haven’t enocountered yet. From gods of some other pantheon to Nephilim too. It would pretty cool if they weren’t angels but something we haven’t guessed.

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16. I like this episode, wasn’t that bad, I guess is better than nothing. I like how Jensen has good chemistry with almost all guest stars… maybe it has something to do with his acting skills.

    About your theory about Naomi being translucent, I think it was just a glitch of the lights reflecting all the white panels, that’s maybe the reason why they put some color lights in the following episode.

    For next episode. John is not in hell anymore, he escaped when the gates of hell opened and after helping Dean with JED, he went into the light. Bobby was never in hell, also went into the light.

    Adam, well maybe. He is in the cage that is lock down so nobody escapes. But, it could be that somebody helped him, got out but stayed in hell. The guy looks bigger and maybe older? Perhaps is Adam, but since hell has another time zone…

    Benny, maybe is the last time we see him. Got the feeling that he will get kill saving Sam. Or maybe just injured, so Sam will start liking him.

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    1. Have you seen the size of the actor who played Adam lately, that could totally be him?!

       Hopefully it is the last time we see Benny.

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       1. Heh, I haven’t, but I know Jake Abel is in that movie The Host, based on that other book by Stephanie Meyer. I might watch to see him in it. Also, somewhat shamefully, I have to admit, I’ve read the book and this one was better than all the Twilight books put together, so…
          Random comment is random 😉

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       2. [quote]Have you seen the size of the actor who played Adam lately, that could totally be him?!

          Hopefully it is the last time we see Benny.[/quote]

          looked like Bobby in the preview for next week

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          1. As much as I’m a devil for the spoilers, there are probably some people reading here who don’t want to be spoiled about next the episode……

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             1. Tim – you are correct; my apologies – have modified my comments accordingly.

             2. Yes, 1 of them would be me. So thanks, Tim.

                Spoiler warnings or a few lines of spoiler space would be most appreciated.

    2. [quote]Benny, maybe is the last time we see him. Got the feeling that he will get kill saving Sam. Or maybe just injured, so Sam will start liking him.[/quote]

       There are many reasons this would make me unhappy, but Benny is well liked, so I think it is likely.

       Sneak peek for the next episode is up [url]http://www.spoilertv.com/2013/03/supernatural-episode-819-taxi-driver_1606.html[/url] it pretty well spells out the soul in need of rescue.

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17. Very rushed here. Morning all!

    Strangely, the first thing I thought of after this episode [i]The Girl Next Door[/i]. Okay, they’re not exactly the same but (for me) there were a lot of interesting moral, social and ethical conundrums raised in that episode (TGND) to which there were no easy answers. I mean, should we decide to do so, we could still be discussing who and what was right and who and what was wrong etc in that episode (and even now we wouldn’t reach a consensus.)

    This episode had all the makings of that type of episode; an episode that could have made us think about and seriously debate the issues raised in it. Why Victor was doing what he was doing (raising kids to be hunters) and was it right. Why the kids were doing what they did (choosing hunting) and was it right. It could have shed a hell of a lot of insight into the lives of Sam and Dean growing up, what shaped them etc. If we’d seen Victor as a guy who was genuinely trying to help and genuinely trying to prepare for a better future instead of being an evil murdering bastard and manipulating the kids to do what he wanted, then I’d have had a completely different take on the episode. They didn’t.

    Instead, once again, they went easy-peasy. Victor is a bad guy, the ‘human monster’; the end. He was working with the vamps (and can people on this show not say ‘vampire’ anymore! What next, ‘Well Sam, do you think it’s a rug or a lam?’ ‘I’m fair certain it’s a wendy, Dean.’ Use proper words, people!) to kill innocents; clichéd in the extreme and because of that it unfortunately made the episode forgettable in the extreme. That’s a shame because it could have been gold. The premise was hugely interesting. A school for hunters, a place for people who’ve lost someone to the supernatural to maybe find solace and answers and maybe try to do something about it is (for me) a great idea and it is a valid possible eventuality for Sam and Dean. Hunting can’t die with Sam and Dean. Should the wealth of information, knowledge and skills they’ve amassed over the years die off with they go? All of Bobby’s books, John’s journal, the library in the bunker; should all those just be sealed off, never to be seen again, when Sam and Dean die?

    Contrary to what Dean said, sealing the gates of hell will [i]not[/i] stop monsters and it will not make hunters redundant because the last time I looked demons didn’t make vampires, or werewolves or any other nasties we’ve seen on the show. So they’d need to seal off the gates to heaven, hell, Purgatory and the road to Waterford (morning, eilf!) to stop all the nasties from springing forth. They’d then need to kill all the nasties that are currently running around so maybe, if they do all that, Krissy’s great-great grandkids might not have to hunt, but it won’t help Krissy. And it won’t help Sam and Dean. So yes, as it stands at present, Sam and Dean are in this for the long haul, as is Krissy. And Sam and Dean can’t kill every supernatural out there so other hunters are needed. So the question is, are Sam and Dean as good as they are because they hunted, and learned from other hunters, from a young age? If so then does it not make sense to train hunters, [i]maybe[/i] from a young age (not using Victors methods, obviously) instead of the odd auld fella who is only learning as he is going and could be more liable to get killed as he hadn’t been properly trained from a young age? (I’ll phrase this better when I wake up properly.)

    And contrary to many people on here (and possibly every SPN fan out there), I’m not adverse to the idea of family (aka kids. Oh unclench, people!) being the reason for Sam and Dean settling down. If it happens, I doubt it will even be raised as an issue until the last season (and he’s hoping that Sam doesn’t flip flop around again to eschewing normal for what he’s always weally, [i]weally[/i] wanted; hunting). It would, for me, be nice symmetry with Mary, who wanted to get out of hunting and who wanted to raise a family. I think it’d be good to see Sam and Dean (or just Sam or just Dean) succeed where Mon and Dad failed; learn from the mistakes of the parents and all that. (I also think it’d be kinda nice because this is also what John wanted for his sons. He had the college fund etc. He never wanted hunting for them. I think it’d be a great tribute to the ridiculously sexy, talented, badass but alas dead, John Winchester if his boys ended up with ‘normal’).

    The thing is, surely doing what they (Sam and Dean) are doing right now, trying to close the gates of hell (and further down the line, heaven and maybe Purgatory) while also trying to get rid of evil is almost like making it safe to have kids? It’s kinda like the Winchester equivalent of sweeping up the dog hair and sterilising the place before you bring a new baby home…… Supernatural is about family and family is not just confined to brothers. Children, spouses, they’re all family so if the 10 seasons of SPN that we get is the equivalent of Sam and Dean sowing their wild oats (of death, debauchery and demons!) and childproofing the place before settling down then I guess I’m good with that.

    I’m hoping (hoping) that the continuous references we get to things like family, normal etc, do pan out. I’d hate for them to be firing in these references just for the sake of firing them in. I was pretty hopeful last week (via the Sam and Meg conversation) that Sam’s year off would be touched on again. With the mention of the Leviathans this week, that hope continues. I just think that if they had no plans for it and wanted to sweep it under the carpet they wouldn’t keep making references to it. (That might be a fools hope, I know, but it’s Easter! If you can’t be hopeful surrounded by buttloads of chocolate eggs then when can you be? Speaking of, does anyone know a good detox? For after Easter……)

    In relation to your ‘Behold now the Behemoth’, I really have no clue. Though I do now have a burning desire to hear Dean say ‘Behemoth’!

    In relation to the preview for 8.19; spoilers people!!!! Sheesh……

    (I kid, I kid. I actually saw the preview for 8.19 before I saw this episode. I kinda just wanted to make you all feel bad there for a second. Happy Easter!) Um, the picture showed looks kinda like Bobby or Benny (though are either of them innocent?) I’d like for it to be Adam, Jessica or John (but they’re all movie stars now so I don’t know if that’s feasible). Not a clue really. There was another picture I saw somewhere that (SPOILER!) [hide]looks like the back of Sam’s head (it’s a very distinctive back of head…..) in a Purgatory type setting[/hide] so I really, really don’t know.

    Oh, back to the episode. It was grand. Rather forgettable. Krissy is never getting with Dean (though they are scarily alike in temperament. I wouldn’t want to have either one of them in class!). That necklace, with its thin little chain, wouldn’t last pissing time on a hunter. Why on earth did Sam need to leave the room for Dean and Krissy to talk? Did he think they were going to talk about him or something? It’s good that Sam was actually tied properly this time. Nice that they learned something from Samuel. It’s just a shame that the war vet was killed. I’d nearly prefer if it was the other way around because that woman’s hair was atrocious. Are Sam and Dean the only two ‘good’ hunters out there now? Victor was evil (like the fruits of the devil!), Martin was (supposedly, though I didn’t see it) stir crazy, Garth comes with a warning and Krissy Inc. are all going through puberty. Bloody hell! I’m wondering if JP is still carrying that broken rib and that’s the reason he’s been relatively inactive these last few episodes. Plus, when he was reaching into his pocket for that necklace I thought he was doing so kinda gingerly.

    Thanks for this, Ardeospina. Enjoy Easter.

    Reply

    1. Tim, I must say, I’m not adverse to the idea of Sam and Dean having kids, either, just not while the show is still on. It definitely would be a shame for all of Sam and Dean’s knowledge to die with them.
       I agree that I think this is all just foreshadowing of what we might get to see at the end, not necassarily of anything they’re thinking of introducing before then.

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    2. No clenching here :-). I can’t speak for others but my fear is Amelia will show up again, and be pregnant. I actually would love for the guys to have a regular life with kids and the whole nine yards someday. I just fear adding a baby into the mix right now might adversely affect the show.

       Eilf, is your hometown Waterford ? 🙂

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       1. i really wouldn’t let your imagination get the best of you. firstly i’ve read a more recent interview which stated charlie, cas, benny all would be back and amelia would not. i really think they got the message from the fandom. amelia was a failed experiment and i’m pretty sure that carver and co. are aware of this. i don’t believe we have to worry about seeing her ever again.

          as for the talking to sam about kids…i don’t think it’s inferring a pregnant someone out there. i’ve stated it above already….but it seems to me that the talk of children is more about fueling sam’s motivation so he can succeed in doing the trials, which he really needs to do.

          once upon a time sam dreamed of normal. would’ve married jess and possibly had a family of his own….but that never happened.

          by the time we get to s5, as told by sam to dean in swap meat when dean asked if sam thought about having rugrats of his own, sam said that wasn’t his life anymore.

          now we get to the s8, and after everything horrible that sam has been through, the worst being losing dean, he accidentally fell into normal and enjoyed some of the aspects of that life. i’m not talking about amelia, because as i’ve stated in previous posts, i don’t believe he loved her . it was out of misery and loss that he was with her…but i do believe he may have loved the mundane and safety that came from being with her. so this renewed desire to one day live normal has given him his spark back to hunt again. maybe not forever, but he has that spark to hunt..he wants to do it, even if it’s just so he can achieve his longtime goal of living normal…possibly. 😉

          sam is scared right now. he’s not up to full strength and he’s not sure if he can come out of these trials unscathed. but after talking with victor about kids, it left me with the impression that sam would like kids of his own. sam is 30 years old or so now. it’s very common at this age for men to start thinking about having a family of their own. i don’t think sam or dean for that matter are any different. as a matter of fact, we know dean wants kids since s5….it’s just that at this time i believe dean thinks it’s not possible for him. but sam sees things differently for both of them, as we got to hear in t& e when sam gave dean his speech about wanting to take dean into the light.

          so my take on this episode has nothing to do with any surprises like amelia popping up one day with a kid. on the contrary, this eppy speaks volumes to me about sam thinking about his future, not his past mistakes. it’s my opinion that after last night’s eppy sam not only wants to live a nice safe life without demons, but he wants to carry on the winchester name. i don’t think sam believes he and dean have to go out in a blaze of glory, i think sam sees a future where he and dean can have their own families…

          like i said above, the talk with victor, just gave sam that extra push, that motivation that he needs to find the strength to succeed in accomplishing the trials and nothing more than that, so that some day, in the hopefully not so distant future, instead of sam and dean going out in a blaze of glory, they can have a different scenario, on in which sam and dean find someone to love and perhaps even some day raise little winchesters to carry on……. 😆

          Reply

    3. Sam’s desire for normal seems to be emphasized heavily of late; one of the regular writers on this site, I think it was Ardeospina, speculated that Sam’s body is going thru some sort of purification process as part of the trials, ridding his body of the demon blood. Sam had always viewed himself as a freak but I’m just wondering, if this emphasis on a desire for normal is because of these changes that are happening on a “sub-atomic level”.

       Couldn’t agree with you more on sealing the gates of hell; even if Sam and Dean do close the gates of hell, nature abhors a vacuum so some other sort of evil thing will just take the place of demons. And… remember… it’s not like the angels are all “hugs and puppies”.

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    4. I’m not adverse to kids either, when the series ends. From a personal angle, I would prefer that they be adopted. Adoption is still family. Sam especially should want to make certain that Lucifer can’t get another vessel through HIS genetic line, IMHO. The idea of taking in kids who were orphaned by the supernatural makes sense to me and would be a fine way for Sam and Dean to pass on their legacy. Heck they can marry widows or hunters who know about the life and be honest with their wives.

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       1. [quote]I’m not adverse to kids either, when the series ends. From a personal angle, I would prefer that they be adopted. Adoption is still family. Sam especially should want to make certain that Lucifer can’t get another vessel through HIS genetic line, IMHO. The idea of taking in kids who were orphaned by the supernatural makes sense to me and would be a fine way for Sam and Dean to pass on their legacy. Heck they can marry widows or hunters who know about the life and be honest with their wives.[/quote]

          Would prefer no kids, but if they’re going down that road, I’d rather see some kids show up from the Soulless Sam random hookup days; he got around – even Dean was impressed.

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    5. [quote]
       Contrary to what Dean said, sealing the gates of hell will [i]not[/i] stop monsters and it will not make hunters redundant because the last time I looked demons didn’t make vampires, or werewolves or any other nasties we’ve seen on the show. So they’d need to seal off the gates to heaven, hell, Purgatory and the road to Waterford (morning, eilf!) to stop all the nasties from springing forth. .[/quote]

       We Waterford people have a tablet that was found recently in a Lucifer’s Crypt in Ballyduff. We are calling it the Cork Tablet (not original I know, but descriptive) While we are not sure what it does EXACTLY, I guess once it is used Cork won’t be winning any All Irelands for a while :-*
       We have a call in to the Winchesters at the moment, I’ll keep you updated…

       (Hi Leah, yes, it’s a county as well as a town. It’s a bit like Vermont and New Hampshire talking smack …)

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       1. Oh eilf, my poor, dear, sweet, innocent eilf.

          Do you honestly think we don’t have enough to keep us going?? My love, we could never win an All Ireland again and we’d still have more than you guys would ever have!

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          1. Ah, smack talking about the All Ireland, great craic! But I’m from Ulster, so I’m just going to go and sit in the corner and be sad… :sigh:

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             1. LOL, you think you have problems? We are stuck living beside these (EDIT:) fabulous Corkonians.

                I am here going ‘oh yeah? Well, let me tell [i] you [/i]….you know actually that’s probably true ….’.

                I fail at smack talk.

             2. I feel your pain,[b]eilf[/b], inter-county rivalry is indeed a grand old tradition, one that we take seriously up here. (Unfortunately, I’m dreadful at it too 😳 ) But if anyone from one of the other provinces tries to get involved in slagging Ulster teams…well, we’re like the Winchesters, we close ranks LOL.

             3. Ah don’t be sad, ciar. I mean, if you add up all the AI’s Ulster has won over the years, you’d definitely have more than Waterford’s………. 2 (to Corks 37!)!

                Jeez, I’m on fire tonight!

             4. Oh. well if you are going to use [i]statistics[/i] to back up your argument (which is otherwise very weak) I will just have to find someone else to argue with over some different issue ….

             5. Oops, [b]eilf[/b] it’s very clear to me that I’m outclassed by [b]Tim’s[/b] skills on this issue. *runs for the hills*

             6. Yes I feel I am not going to win on this 😀 Though I have a small suspicion that Tim pulled those numbers out of the air. Anyway it is nice to meet a(nother) fellow countrywoman!

                (I am going to go edit my above post because it might get me in trouble for name-calling I just discovered)

                Tim if you feel like backing up your argument take it to the CBOX I will see you there 😀 , I think maybe we cluttered this thread up enough

             7. Awesome- ALMOST rivals Dr. Pepper wars 😀

    6. Great post Tim, couldn’t agree more. I’m not adverse to the idea of Sam and Dean wanting and having kids as an endgame, I can see how that as a story line playing out could unload a lot of the baggage they have been walking around with all these years. However, I would cringe, to put it mildly, if a pregnant Amelia/who’s the daddy story was thrown into this current mix. It would render quite a soapy mess that I hoped was left behind when Sam chose not to meet up with a very married Amelia in Torn and Frayed.

       I must say I am also getting very confused with this insistence on the “Sam wants a normal life” message that we apparently are supposed to get from each week’s plot. Because in my opinion at every turn, it is actually made quite clear that this “normal life” doesn’t exist, hunter or not.

       If we are to assume that Sam’s year with Amelia was one without supernatural interference (and I think the writers are still trying to decide that one) even then that “normal life” was filled with people coming back from the dead, betrayal, heartache and sacrifice. Victor’s family was killed by monsters before he ever knew they existed and his newly created “family” was based on lies, revenge and spilled blood. How is all this supposed to keep reminding Sam that “normal life” is the big alternative choice? I am really scratching my head on this one and I can for the life of me not figure out where this is supposed to be taking us.

       The other major thing that irritated me in this episode is what a lot of you have already pointed out. Closing the gates of hell will not end the need for hunters, nor will it keep Krissy and her cohorts safe from monsters. To end the episode with that premise is sloppy writing at best.

       Reply

18. Quoting Tim:
    [quote]This episode had all the makings of that type of episode; an episode that could have made us think about and seriously debate the issues raised in it. Why Victor was doing what he was doing (raising kids to be hunters) and was it right. Why the kids were doing what they did (choosing hunting) and was it right. It could have shed a hell of a lot of insight into the lives of Sam and Dean growing up, what shaped them etc. If we’d seen Victor as a guy who was genuinely trying to help and genuinely trying to prepare for a better future instead of being an evil murdering bastard and manipulating the kids to do what he wanted, then I’d have had a completely different take on the episode. They didn’t. [/quote]

    Took the words right out of my mouth. This sums up perfectly what I feel was wrong with this episode. First off, it was boring. There was an awful lot of blah, blah, blah going on, and because Victor turned out to be such a mundane, run of the mill, “EVILE for no reason bad guy,” in the end I didn’t care. And would anybody buy the crap that Victor was selling? His motivation seemed pretty weak to me; a dead family? was that supposed to move me? His deplorable response to his dead family made me not care about him or the dead family at all. They COULD have had Victor be this true caring father figure who felt that his mission in life was to train the next generation of hunters while still giving them a sense of stability by providing a home, structure and school. Then this ideal could have conflicted with Dean’s hard line about kids and hunting with Sam falling somewhere in the middle thus providing some relevant conflict between the brothers (good conflict of the moral dilemma type that leads to revealing discussions but doesn’t have to last longer than an episode type conflict). But instead, they went down the easy and uncreative road of having Victor be the “evil bad guy” who’s all evil and bad for absolutely no real reason with motivation that makes no sense at all and no real way for either brother to connect to the larger story or each other. What a way to underwhelm.

    And I am sorry to say that Krissy annoyed the crap out of me, way more than the first time we saw her. Why is she so incredibly mouthy, and unpleasant? I wanted Dean to take her over his knee. She came across less like a traumatized teen and more like a sullen and spoiled brat. And Sam is becoming a master at excusing himself from scenes. “I’ll just go wait outside Dean. Have fun having a scene without me!” Double ugh! Now, I don’t believe for one minute that TPTB are planning to remove Sam as a character from Supernatural or Jared from the show, or the that the MoL storyline and Sam’s trial illness will cause him to be sidelined, but after this episode I can certainly see why some people feel that way. Exactly how many times did Sam take himself out of a scene 2/3? Possibly Jared was still nursing his broken rib from his skiing accident and had to be careful in physical scenes, but I guess that broken rib is also affecting his mouth somehow, because I’d be surprised if Sam had even ten lines of dialog in this episode.

    Of all the things that this episode COULD have done: referenced Sam and Dean’s childhood, sparked debate about raising kids to be hunters, a seasoned hunter’s responsibility towards the next generation of hunters, the importance of family… it did none of them; and it didn’t acknowledge in any way current plot lines either. What a disappointment.

    Reply

    1. [quote] And Sam is becoming a master at excusing himself from scenes. “I’ll just go wait outside Dean. Have fun having a scene without me!” Double ugh! Now, I don’t believe for one minute that TPTB are planning to remove Sam as a character from Supernatural or Jared from the show, or the that the MoL storyline and Sam’s trial illness will cause him to be sidelined, but after this episode I can certainly see why some people feel that way. Exactly how many times did Sam take himself out of a scene 2/3? Possibly Jared was still nursing his broken rib from his skiing accident and had to be careful in physical scenes, but I guess that broken rib is also affecting his mouth somehow, because I’d be surprised if Sam had even ten lines of dialog in this episode. [/quote]

       Simple answer: the writers have alsmost no idea of how to write Sam interacting with any real depth with most characters, other than Dean. And this ep is just the lastest in a long line of Sam being pushed offscreen whilst Dean converses/interacts/bonds with a secondary character.

       A Little Slice of Kevin: Dean & Cas get out of the Impala to talk.
       Adventures in Babysitting: Sam exits at the end of the ep leaving Dean and Krissy to bond and fist-bump each other, even though Sam going to college/Krissy wanting to go to college was a logical reason for them to have something to talk about.
       As Time Goes By: An opportunity to have Sam talk with Henry was squandered when Sam just gets up from the table without even saying a word after Dean storms out.

       I know there are lots more, but these are just the ones that come to mind at the moment.

       Not sure if Jared’s rib injury is responsible for Sam exiting scenes for no apparent reason. We’ve certainly seen Sam being thrown around plenty the last few eps, unless they are all done by Mike (his stunt double). I noticed back in Trial And Error, that Jared was standing with his arms crossed over his chest alot, rather than his usual hands-in-pockets stance and put this down to being more comfortable with his healing rib.

       Reply

       1. [quote][quote] And Sam is becoming a master at excusing himself from scenes. “I’ll just go wait outside Dean. Have fun having a scene without me!” Double ugh! Now, I don’t believe for one minute that TPTB are planning to remove Sam as a character from Supernatural or Jared from the show, or the that the MoL storyline and Sam’s trial illness will cause him to be sidelined, but after this episode I can certainly see why some people feel that way. Exactly how many times did Sam take himself out of a scene 2/3? Possibly Jared was still nursing his broken rib from his skiing accident and had to be careful in physical scenes, but I guess that broken rib is also affecting his mouth somehow, because I’d be surprised if Sam had even ten lines of dialog in this episode. [/quote]

          I’ve been always one to discount these complaints about Sam but, now that you mention it, the entire scene with Dean/Sam/Chrissy at the end, where Sam dismissed himself, was just plain odd. It’s not like he left because Dean was trying to get in her pants; she was, after all, a teenager. Even when Sam sat down at the table for breakfast, the 3 teenagers got up and left 🙂

          Is this being done intentionally as part of some bigger storyline or do the writers just have trouble writing for him? I realize that Sam’s character has changed a lot after his experiences in hell, his soulless period, getting his soul back, then having a mental breakdown but this lack of interaction with other characters is a little more pronounced this season.

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          1. I honestly think the writers don’t know how to write for Sam. I think this has been a problem for a while. SG gave it a go in season six with Soulless!Sam, but other than that, Sam has been poorly served as far as developing his character, IMHO.

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    2. [quote]But instead, they went down the easy and uncreative road of having Victor be the “evil bad guy” who’s all evil and bad for absolutely no real reason with motivation that makes no sense at all and no real way for either brother to connect to the larger story or each other. What a way to underwhelm.
       [/quote]

       Well, I agree it could have been more creative and less ‘easy’ – I think the whole point though was that Victor, after watching his kids get murdered, slowly went insane. He became a sociopath, willing to train the next generation at whatever the cost. I actually found the entire thing – including his demise by his own hand – to be incredibly tragic. And here again you have the twofold consequences of the supernatural – people losing their loved ones; and hunters struggling to hold onto their sanity, even their humanity. The point I took from it was again, how important this mission is to Sam and Dean (they mentioned that at the end of the episode). If they close the gates, young hunters like Krissy won’t have to get inevitably sucked into that dangerous life, because there won’t be anything to hunt. However I was confused here, because I never thought that closing the gates of Hell meant getting rid of monsters (including vampires) – I thought it was just demons. If so, it nearly renders the entire episode moot, since the point of it seems to be giving Sam and Dean even more motivation to close the gates.

       [quote]Of all the things that this episode COULD have done: referenced Sam and Dean’s childhood, sparked debate about raising kids to be hunters, a seasoned hunter’s responsibility towards the next generation of hunters, the importance of family… it did none of them; and it didn’t acknowledge in any way current plot lines either. What a disappointment.
       [/quote]

       Well, they did reference their childhood, briefly. Sam and Dean had two discussions I believe, and in one of them Dean was like, “hunters aren’t kids” and Sam responded by saying, “we were”, to which Dean was like, “yeah, and look how that turned out.” What else really could they have shown or talked about that we don’t already know? Sam and Dean hunted when they were kids – we already know that. It’s been already shown and talked about and lamented over quite a bit.

       Sparked debate about raising kids to be hunters…I thought that was a large part and theme of the episode – Sam and Dean discussing this?

       As for the next generation of hunters – Sam and Dean view this as a negative thing. That discussion at the end (referencing the current plot line) revealed how they feel about it – if they close the gates Hell, there may not need to be a next generation of hunters. And that’s how they’d prefer it.

       The importance of family…we saw this with Krissy’s decision to stay with her makeshift siblings. That conversation she had with Dean was all about family. And in that moment, Dean was playing the role of psuedo-father, which I found particularly touching.

       Perhaps we just have different perceptions, but I thought the episode at the very [i]least [/i] addressed all these points.

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       1. [b]bamboo[/b], I also thought that the episode rendered the closing of the Hell gates a bit less relevant too because there are monsters in the world that don’t come from Hell so closing the gates won’t remove them from the world – the world will still need hunters.

          One thing I thought during the episode was that Victor was deluding himself on the fact that he was raising the the creme de la creme of hunters. That honour goes to ‘Drill Sergeant’ John Winchester (not a great Dad but a great trainer of hunters). Victor’s teenage hunters didn’t seem that particularly skilled or knowledgeable to me, plus Sam and Dean had been undergoing military-style training from a much younger age, so I think the Winchester brothers were, and still are, the creme de creme of hunters 😆 I was totes offended on Sam and Dean’s behalf when Victor was bragging LOL.

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19. I liked this episode and I liked Chrissy last year. She is tough yet vulnerable, like the Winchester brothers themselves. I think Sam saw the value in giving kids, who have already been thrown into the hunting life, a stable environment and training, as well as a chance to get an education. Hunting skills make them less vulnerable. I also like all the reoccurring characters JC is bringing in for possible future use. As much as I love the J2s I think we need more characters for them to interact with on the show then just each other. It gives us a broader perspective of how the boys think apart from each other. So, good one off. Next week should be a real nail biter and I’m not even going to guess who’s getting saved in hell and how Benny can possibly help. I’m just going to enjoy the ride. I’m still loving this season.

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    1. Yes, I agree we need more recurring charectors for the boys to interact with….BOYS with an “S”. Sam should also be interacting with other chrectors not just Dean.

       EvErytime there is interaction with a charector its ALWAYS Dean while Sam stand smute ot the writers send him God knows where to i assume twiddle his fingers.

       I woulkd love this broader perspective of how SAM thinks outside of Dean. Sadly the only interaction Sam gets is with Dean….and as much as I love it…its repititius and boring.

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20. Only thing I have to say about this episode is…. next week looks like a good one. This was mediocre predictable, and unmemorable. Figured out Victor’s motives early on, and I really, really suck at the whole speculation thing. I liked Krissy in her prior episode but she kind of grated on me in this one.

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21. It was said by this one guy who works on the show, I don’t remember who, that it was the lighting and that she wasn’t transparent

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22. Well, I liked this episode as a filler, it was a Okay for me, not better not worse than any other filler we have had. I love Kristie, she is a badass and it is so obvious she looks up to Dean, but she is always giving him a lot of crap, their chemestry is delicious to watch…

    As I said earlier, for me the episode was ok.. some good things and some misses too – nothing that spetacular either way…

    No, if somebody wants to kill me for what I’m gonna say now – do it, I really don’t care, because this is what I think.

    I couldn’t care less if Adam stays in hell, heaven, purgatory, in a special cabin somewhere in North Pole, wherever… He is not – in my personal opinion – somebody important in the Winchester’s life (yeah I know half brother, took over Michael, tried to save his mother, bla bla bla) I don’t care about him as a character of the show… He came, he did and he went. (period)

    Now Bobby is another completely different story in my book of Supernatural persons that I miss dearly, I still can’t forgive a certain showrunner (whose name I refuse to type an/or speak – but you all know who I’m talking about) who decided that killing him was good for the show… Seriously I’m not gonna even dwell about it… it still hurts like hell… and that’s that… My point is – I want, and I think I’m not alone – I want Bobby back, not the horrible way the was brought back last season – but to be saved by his “sons”, to be sent to heaven with this wife, to have an afterlife better than he had while he was here.. or whatever JC decides for him… Bobby is the innocent I want to be saved..

    Not anybody else…

    Well that’s it.

    Have a nice Easter weekend everybod. Hope you all have a great time eating lots of chocolate eggs, I know I”m gonna.

    🙂 Cla 😉

    Reply

    1. Aside from a slight disagreement over Krissy….

       Woo-hoo!!

       In full agreement with you on both Adam and Bobby.

       Sniff, snuffle and sob…..Oh how I miss my Bobby!!

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    2. After Bobby walked away from Sam without a single word when Sam revealed he didn’t know which reality was real…Bo0bby can rot in Hell for all eternity. Sam needed his family…ALL OF his family. And Bobby turned his back on Sam.

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       1. Um…what are you referring to?

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          1. IN seaason 6? After Cas broke Sams wall and SAm couldn’t differentiate between what was real and a hallucination. After Sam confessed that Lucifer was telling him he was still in Hell and Dean and Bobby were the Hallcuninations.

             Bobby…the guy who claimed to love Sam like a son…without a single word, turned his back on Sam and walked out.

             In that moment I hated Bobby.

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             1. Ep 7.02. (One of the best of season 7, imo)
                Not Bobby’s finest moment, for sure. But I think he figured Dean and Sam needed a moment to themselves, or else he really didn’t know how to deal/what to add.
                But yes, not a great fatherly moment for Bobby.

             2. .

             3. I don’t know, I guess at the time it didn’t strike me as Bobby not caring about Sam. I just thought he wasn’t entirely sure how to address that situation and went back to work. (with you on that st50). He was never the soft shoulder kind of paternal type. Half the time he was growling at Dean for one thing or another. He might have had a closer relationship with Dean but I never doubted his love for either brother. JMO and perspective on that moment!

             4. I agree, Leah.

                The impression I had gotten from that scene – the look on his face – was that Bobby was incredibly sad and overwhelmed by Sam’s admission. He’s had moments before where he’s said, “that’s above my pay grade.” Some would say it wasn’t a great fatherly moment, but what could he possibly say or do? [i]Bobby had never been to Hell.[/i] Dean had. Dean was the [i]only [/i]one remotely qualified to understand and help Sam. The most Bobby could do was empathize from afar. He had nothing to offer of help – so he left the room. But even then – this man provided room and board and unwavering support for the Winchesters, looking after both of them, for so long – I don’t see how that scene could be interpreted as anything else. And I don’t see how Bobby being overwhelmed and aware of his own limitations in being there for the brothers should be held against him in light of everything he’s done for them.

          2. I’m pretty sure Amy is talking about the scene in 702 (Hello, Cruel World) where Sam has just told Dean he’s been seeing Lucifer

             DEAN
             Wait. Are you seeing him right now?

             SAM nods.

             DEAN
             You know that he’s not real. Right?

             SAM
             He says the same thing about you.

             BOBBY
             I’m going back to work.

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       2. Oh, Bobby’s done his fair share of screw-ups with both brothers.

          Not telling Dean Sam was back.
          Not figuring out Sam hadn’t come back as Sam.
          Acting like an a**hat to Sam when Sam was first re-souled.
          Spell influence or not, ‘Dean’s his favorite’. Really?
          His speech to Dean about family making you miserable.
          His suggestion maybe Sam should be released from the panic room to help fight when Sam’s mental state and physical health was in question.

          I’m sure there’s more, but off the top of my head, that’s what I can remember.

          But, oh,but then, there’s his quote to Cas about needing to retrieve the boys and allowing access to his soul so Cas could.
          His defense of the brothers to Samuel.
          His willingness to drop everything and lend assistance. (i.e. Weekend at Bobby’s)
          Going with Sam’s plan and following his lead in Yellow Fever.
          Talking Dean past the moment when it was known they were going to lose Jo.

          Huh, again, I’m sure there’s more……

          Color me jaded, I like a supporting cast and I too, loved Bobby.

          Reply

23. Throughout the 8 seasons, without looking, I count the times Sam has been tied up as 9 times (the one where he was possessed by Meg doesn’t count) and Dean as 5 times.

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    1. I count 5 times for Dean just in season 1! Wendigo, Skin, Scarecrow, The Benders, Shadow.

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24. [quote]That no way looks like Bobby, the long leather jacket and the hair make it look likes its might be Dean but unless they time travel to pull a soul from hell then my guess is it will be Adam.[/quote]

    Except that’s exactly what Bobby was wearing when we last saw him. Leather jacket and a blue cap.

    [img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120401022533/supernatural/images/e/e0/Bobby_as_a_ghost.jpg[/img]

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25. Can I just say, that when Dean was talking to Krissy at the end and mentioning how he was going to have Garth come check on her every once and while, that it touched my heart immensely? I say many times that Garth is good in small doses. But he is such a [i]good [/i]character. He can do things Sam and Dean can’t, and unlike most hunters, he’s got a empathy coming out the ears. I miss Bobby with a passion, and I don’t think for a minute that Garth successfully “replaces” him – but Garth has his own role in the show…almost, dare I say, as a motherly influence. He looks after people. And that is incredibly endearing. Just warms my heart. 🙂

    Okay – chick flick moment over. 😛

    Reply

    1. [quote]Can I just say, that when Dean was talking to Krissy at the end and mentioning how he was going to have Garth come check on her every once and while, that it touched my heart immensely? I say many times that Garth is good in small doses. But he is such a [i]good [/i]character. He can do things Sam and Dean can’t, and unlike most hunters, he’s got a empathy coming out the ears. I miss Bobby with a passion, and I don’t think for a minute that Garth successfully “replaces” him – but Garth has his own role in the show…almost, dare I say, as a motherly influence. He looks after people. And that is incredibly endearing. Just warms my heart. 🙂

       Okay – chick flick moment over. :P[/quote

       Oh,Yay! I sometimes get the impression that I’m the only one who likes Garth. I fell in love with him the moment he introduced Mr. Fizzles into the conversation. I can’t see any other hunter in that ‘verse being able to get away with that, thereby making Garth a wholely unique character in Supernatural.

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26. Well it was fine I guess. I like Krissy, I thought the fundamental idea was interesting. Maybe they are looking at a ‘how not to do it’ hunter training concept. Since they now have a house, three well trained teens and a headmaster in Garth they are already most of the way to actually coming up with a school, you know Garth isn’t going to leave an idea like that untapped.

    [rant] Sam being ‘sent to Coventry’ whenever there is a recurring guest star (Meg was a bad guy and she died, but ok, yes I will allow her as a heart-to-heart for Sam) is at this stage so obvious it is somewhat insulting. The fact that the writers don’t seem to notice it says very little for their ability to look at the season as a whole. I am interested to know if it is Sam that they don’t know what to do with, Dean who has traditional behavior they can draw on or just that Jared has pulled one too many pranks on the guest stars and they have restraining orders. [/rant]

    Also I admit that the spoiler had me fooled. It really didn’t occur to me that they would have the big reveal of the episode (is Victor a bad guy?) in the set photos! Way to go guys, nice double bluff 😀

    Regarding the spoiler, I also wondered if there was a part of either of the guys that is still in hell. But it doesn’t seem likely. I don’t see any reason why Bobby should be in hell, though Crowley has shown this season that he isn’t bound to follow the rules of his contracts. I don’t think we will be getting Bobby back even if it is him being rescued.

    Maybe it’s Chuck, since a) the PTB have said about getting him back b) Chuck vanished and may or may not be God c) It is pretty much the only way that Chuck can be alive and Kevin be a Prophet. (as they said in Buffy when suddenly there could be another live Slayer: ‘You WERE dead!’ ‘I was only gone for a minute!!’)

    Reply

    1. Did they burn Bobby’s body? I can’t remember. I know that they burned the flask, but for the life of me, I can’t remember what they did with his body. CAN he come back and live on earth if they burned him up?

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       1. E, this is late. We didn’t see it but Sam and Dean talked about it when they first thought Bobby might be a ghost.

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27. If it is Bobby that gets saved, would he be alive? Or would he go to heaven like John. I want to see him again, but would sort of like him to stay.

    This is a tough second task. Can’t imagine what the third one is.

    Oh wait I was supposed to be talking about Freaks and Geeks. It was OK and leaves nothing to really say.

    Reply

28. Wouldn’t it be interesting if the innocent soul that needs saved turns out to be Meg?
    Although I do like the thought of Sam bringing Adam back. And in the preview Dean did say that his “Little brother” is down there – it’s a stretch but Dean does have two little brothers…..

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29. I don’t dislike the idea of a family unit for the boys. And I can’t see how Sam possibly having a child could take him out of the picture in any way. In fact, it would give them both even more reason (fresh and renewed reason) to keep the bad guys away. They are “family” oriented people. So, why not add some family? You have the whole direction of the MOL legacy that opens the door to some great possibilities. I’m excited to see where they take us. And either way they go (if they go), whether it is Uncle Dean or Uncle Sam, we know he is gonna be hot!
    I don’t think I’m writing anything spoilery based on everything I’ve seen above, but I am talking about the previews….so beware….

    So – assuming that it is Bobby in hell as we have been led to believe and Sam saves Bobby’s soul from hell… does that actually mean he comes back to the living or just that his soul is saved and sent on to heaven where it should have been?
    Also – as I think I saw Tim mention above…I thought it looked like Sam was in Purgatory as well. I’m assuming somehow Sam’s round trip ticket to hell ended up with a layover in Purgatory. Which, I’m guessing, is why Dean was asking for Benny’s help.

    This all might have been discussed before so sorry if I’m being repetitive.

    Reply

30. Overall I was bored with this episode and annoyed with the lack of Sam characterization. Send Sam out of the room, let him get caught again, and his overall lack of communication in this episode was crazy out of character. He can communicate with kids and it’s frustrating that they only let Dean do it.

    Love the concept of the new type of characters for Naomi and Crowley and interesting to see if you are correct.

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31. Who was Sam going to bring back from hell originally-before they found out that Bobby is in hell. And can Sam bring back more than one innocent being??

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32. Well, I don’t like to speculate; but it may just be how they bring Bobby back. I know everyone wants him back. They have to find some way to do it. That would be a good one!! Fits right into the story line as well.
    I can’t believe we are down to the last episodes. Are they done filming? I may lose all my DVR’d episodes, so it will be a LONG summer!!!

    I liked the episode. It was fast paced. Lots of action & clever also. In a twisted way, what Victor was dong made sense. Just not his way, or with children. If monsters were real, I would want to make sure there were going to be people with that knowledge out there for the next generation. It seems like nothing gets passed on these days

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    1. Well, not everyone wants Bobby back. I happen to think that, like Castiel, Bobby had outlived his stay on the show. Plus it fit in perfectly in a season where Sam and Dean were being stripped of any and all of their friends, allies and comforts. It was getting to the point where anytime Sam & Dean needed to know what they were hunting, they rang Bobby. Need to know how to kill the monster?? Ring Bobby. It was getting rather repeptitive. In the earlier seasons, Sam and Dean used to be very capable of doing their own research.

       I didn’t even have a problem with Bobby reappearing as a vengeful spirit as it showed a story we had heard plenty about over the years but had rarely seen in detail.

       I’m not against Jim Beaver doing a cameo as part of some sort of flashback or dream, but anything that resurrects Bobby kind of ruins what I think was a very fitting end and spoils 1 of my favourite episodes from season 7. (Death’s Door)

       Reply

       1. I don’t think they’d bring Bobby back permanently. First of all, he doesn’t have a body to come back to. And second, that would be incredibly trippy (like S7 trippy) and too fan-serving, if that makes sense. I agree that it would also do a disservice to what was the best episode IMO of S7 “Death’s Door.” I do think freeing Bobby from Hell and allowing his spirit/soul to go to Heaven would be welcomed (especially after the lackluster burning of the bones sendoff).

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33. I think Naomi is an angel that had a tryst with Crowley when he was still human. I suspect it could be a setup for Cas hooking up – possibly with a newly-human Meg (she did sacrifice herself a lot for a demon maybe getting a second chance – they really couldn’t hook her and Cas up if she remains demonic.)

    I would not be surprised if it is John Winchester in hell. I read somewhere that despite the end of Season 2 even the writers weren’t certain where John was. The whole Bobby speech could be a fake out.

    Sam wants away from hunting. That’s never changed. Not surprising since he was doomed 9.5 years before he was born and spent most of his life fearing he’ll turn bad. That said I’m more concerned about the recurring dog references this season and the fact that the gates of hell are guarded by a 3 headed dog named Cerberus. Remember death isn’t the thing to fear from the trials. If Sam goes bad dog for a while with Crowley Misha might be needed next year to team up with Dean.

    Reply

    1. I’m more concerned about the recurring dog references this season and the fact that the gates of hell are guarded by a 3 headed dog named Cerberus. Remember death isn’t the thing to fear from the trials. If Sam goes bad dog for a while with Crowley Misha might be needed next year to team up with Dean.[/quote]

       What do you mean? I would love to have demonic!Evil!Sam back, its what made his character so interesting in the first place. Are you saying that Crowley and Sam might team up? OMG that would be pretty awesome 😉 x

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    2. [quote]If Sam goes bad dog for a while with Crowley Misha might be needed next year to team up with Dean.[/quote]

       It has occurred to me that the whole point actively avoiding Sam’s POV this year and writing him as being unreasonable about Benny and not caring enough about Dean is to set it up so that, yet AGAIN, Dean is going to have to consider killing Sam.

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       1. [b]percysowner[/b] I agree, the not looking for Dean thing seems a little bit off to me, maybe they are wanting us to feel less sympathy towards Sam, so that when he takes a big fall, the fandom won’t explode in hate? x

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          1. Actually that is probably my biggest fear. That they are setting Sam up for a big fall and everyone will root for it. All Sam has ever had is big falls. He has never saved anyone he really wanted to, ever. He didn’t try to “steal” the trial for Dean, he just didn’t let Dean get killed by the Hell Hound and then decided that since half of the trial was done, he might as well complete it and continue on from there, instead of looking for another Hell Hound and having Dean start from scratch. But I suspect this is going to be another season 4 where Sam trying to do anything to save the world is doomed to fail, because Sam is not seen as worthy of anything but being killed. And I’m pretty sick about it.

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34. Sam will be in SPN till the end, but if he is written like a side character, then what’s the point?
    so disappointed with this episode, the writer just stupid or what, i don’t know anymore.

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35. [quote]Is anyone else afraid that all the talk of kids and family was foreshadowing a pregnant Amelia? I for one sincerely hope they don’t go there. What do you all think?
    Oh, god yes. That is exactly what worries me.

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36. Please don’t go back to including next week’s preview in the Let’s Speculate for this week, Ardeospina! I’ve been so happy I can participate again. I’ve already managed to spoil myself by skimming this page (my fault, I know)…am hoping it is just a one-off thing. Pretty please?

    Episode-wise… well it had the Js (and Krissy back), so it averaged out as reasonable….but, it was an Adam Glass script. Nuff said, really. Maybe he’s a really good producer?

    Random observations:
    • Again, who really is the ‘Then’ segment aimed at? All the new viewers each week? Coz the rest of us are pretty much up to speed. Way to spoil the episode, people. Why not save some time and just write ‘This episode has Krissy and vampires in it’?
    • Ha! U r so right about the giant man with machete wandering round a park in broad daylight. I thought exactly the same thing! There were many other Sam-related plot issues, including the only way they could have made it more obvious that Victor was the Bad Guy was if he had yelled ‘Avada Kedavra’ every few minutes…but on a positive note, Jared’s hair looked amazing!
    • For some reason I thought the sheriff sounded Australian when he first spoke.
    • Jensen’s face is ridiculous. Especially in that gorgeously-lit scene where he and Krissy are talking ‘in private’. Stupidly beautiful.
    • To continue on that superficial note, how pretty did both the boys look in that initial car conversation where they are both checking the other is OK? Sheesh.
    • 1 plot point I did like: Sam’s instant back-up of Dean when Dean, on recognising Krissy, tells the Sheriff he wants the security footage.
    • Two lines I did like: Dean to Sam, ‘What are we thinking?’ and Dean to Aidan: ‘No, no. SHE’LL kill you’.
    • And yup, Dean disarming Aidan was hot 🙂

    Oh dear. It seems I am firmly in the shallow end of the pool this week. Oh well. *shrugs philosophically*

    Reply

    1. It’s okay ! You’re not the only one.

       Dean disarming Aiden was majorly hot and cool. If I got nothing else out of that ep. it was that.

       Reply

       1. Oh good! Not just me then 😉

          Reply

    2. [quote]Please don’t go back to including next week’s preview in the Let’s Speculate for this week, Ardeospina! I’ve been so happy I can participate again. I’ve already managed to spoil myself by skimming this page (my fault, I know)…am hoping it is just a one-off thing. Pretty please? [/quote]

       Ardeospina, I’d like to agree with [b]magichappening[/b]’s request 🙂 I’m having an awfully hard time avoiding spoilers on the Let’s Speculate threads (I’m trying to exercise vigilance to avoid spoiler info on these threads but it’s not always helping :sigh: ).

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37. The episode was boring and once again I saw Sam interacting with BAD VICTOR but otherwise all other characters leave the room or Sam himself does. Krissy was in character as she only talks to Dean ,It does not matter that it was Sam who answered her call earlier.So add Krissy to my characters i don’t like list.

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