Dean and Sam in Supernatural S8: The Ultimate Sacrifice
(From Alice – I received this meta analysis form sabath68, which are her thoughts about Sam and Dean in season eight that vastly expanded from a comment reply. I just had to share this. The perspectives given in this analysis are so fascinating and offer so much to ponder about what transpired in the brotherly dynamic in season eight and eariler before we start season nine. I honestly never thought about what happened between them in quite this way. Thanks so much to sabath68 for sending this and hopefully you’ll get as much out of it as I did.)
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I personally have pondered what I felt and assumed to see in S8. In my humble opinion S8 shows a deep symbolic psychological view of the brothers. I feel that the SPN writers & directors used an old renaissance symbolic technique – “hiding in plain sight“ – and only by deciphering the symbolic could one perceive the elephant in the room. The main factor in the beginning of S8 is the perspective of the “to wish-ego-sight or high expectation“ and the human disability to admit that “what we want to see“ doesn’t always correspond with the reality.
We all can relate to those kind of flaws. We all have high expectations and we are all disappointed when reality strikes back, and also to discover that are expectations are only an illusion out of our deepest core. The way we would like the world to be.
Reality Versus Wishfulness
Like every human, the brothers are no exception. In the first half of S8 the writers excessively exploited the perspective of the all knowing, the omnipotent viewer and the differential not mentioning the expectations of Sam & Dean to each other. And this is the main issue, we viewers had high expectations, they couldn’t be fulfilled without destroying the fundamental bases of the flawed characters Sam & Dean. The writers in my mind knew that, and used this thematic as a tool to keep the viewers bound to their chosen beloved characters.
Both brothers have their nemesis, the deep angst of losing each other. In almost every season the brothers witnessed the loss of a beloved one and such traumatic experiences can’t be flushed away. Surely they can be neglected but in the end the offensive denying of reality doesn’t heal, it only turns into a devouring feeling of losing the confidential trust in life within itself.
And that is what we viewers witnessed in the beginning of S8. It may seem that Dean was capable of surviving Purgatory because of his strong will in difficult situations not to give up. We viewers only witnessed Dean’s struggle to survive and his old fashion stubborn behavior to keep his gentlemen agreements with all consequences. But what we haven’t witnessed was the deep insight of Dean, his deep thoughts were kept veiled and only his plain reaction to this brutal environment were observed. Hence accusing Dean to be an egoist is trivial.
We viewers can only assume Deans thoughts and dreams. In the end that is all we spectators know, the rest was left to our own imagination, or personal expectations. Even though some viewers judge Dean to be harsh with his little brother, aren’t parents sometimes harsh with their children? And that is what Dean represents.
Since Dean was four years old he was always the ultimate caretaker of Sam. The day their mother died, Dean was dramatically forced into a role he never choose. A young boy holding his little brother trying to comfort him, but already knowing that his life would never be the same. He was now in charge, however too young to know why.
Sam is Dean’s bind to sanity. Without his little brother, Dean would have already been dead. Not because he is seeking death, but because he needs Sam as a token for the lost time and to accept the brutal change in their childhood, a constant sad reminder for what has been and never will be. Hence his commitment to protect and keep Sam out of harms way keeps him going. Sam is Dean’s holy grail. To say Dean doesn’t value his own life is a very egoist and self projected sight to a phenomena that has been lost in our days, a biblical value to serve your family in a humble way.
As we all know Sam is Dean’s family. That is what contradicts, on the one side we have a strong principle-minded and focused person, but on the other side a protecting, humble, caring and old fashioned young man. Surely one could mention that Dean is grumpy to Kevin and Garth, but I think deep in his heart he appreciates their doing, but to admit that they are friends could bear the angst of losing them.
With Sam, in the end of S7 the viewer observed the total climax of the brothers nightmare, to suffer the loss of one of each other. Crowley said to Sam, “It looks like you are well and truly on your own.” Truly on your own…Sam’s fragile world literally exploded when the Leviathan blew up. The worse case scenario happened to Sam. Dean, Sam’s guiding figure throughout his entire life vanished in total nothingness. No time to prepare, to time to plan and no time to evaluate.
The only way for Sam to survive this immense loss was to flee from reality and therefore accepting the total annihilation of hope. Because “looking & hunting“ for Dean would imply the deep profound hope that his brother is still alive. But how can someone believe in hope when there is no hope anymore. What is lost can never be found, even in this highly supernatural world the boundary between the dead and the living came at this point to its end. At least for Sam. In depressing moments people do not act rational, they only react without thought, they function in world to which they lost connection.
In “Goodbye Stranger“ Meg asks Sam what happened. She was with Lucifer, the only one in SPN Universe that really knew how Sam feels and what his deepest thoughts are about. Therefore it was quite interesting that she was more interested about the dog. That is the indicator that stopped Sam from running but it didn’t stop him fleeing from reality. He did what he always did, saving, because deep in his heart he believes that saving the world could save him.
And that is why the relationship with Amelia didn’t feel right, it couldn’t, because there was no hope, only the pure grief over their lost ones. Two drowning Humans, holding tightly to each other in an abyss of sadness. Sadness on both sides was fundamental in this relationship, not love. We viewers felt from the beginning that this relationship was to be condemned to failure, because it was only a make believe of two people trying to survive their internal brokenness in an illusion far from reality.
Even after the intimate scenes between Amelia and Sam, there was only gloom. No moment of happiness that two people would share after a profound exchange on intimacy. It felt hollow. Just think about the soulless Sam scene with the “fancy woman.” Wow, now that was hot, the viewer could imagine what was going on before. But here only emptiness, an illusion. I don’t know if the writers deliberately choose Kermit, Texas, but the meaning of Kermit is “free man.” Weird because superficially it seemed as if Sam and Amelia were free to start a new life with each other, but in reality both were captives of their aggrieving memories, hence never free.
When Amelia’s husband came back, Sam knew that he had to go, because now she wasn’t lost anymore, there was no grief to share. Nothing in common anymore, Don was for Amelia what the pigeon for Noah was, a symbol of hope, an end of despair. She had now something what Sam in his darkness didn’t feel to have, she had the possibility to build a future on the fundament of hope.
Lost in grief and melancholy, Sam moves backwards into a place of lost memories Rufus cabin. A sacred place full of “memento mori.“ A haven for the lost but not forgotten, once a safe place that bore the sound of laughter and moments of hope… saving the world. Now a shadow of one’s former self. One could assume a sanctuary. A place for the dead, the right place to leave the world to say good bye.
The chosen symbolics in the flashbacks say more than one could imagine. The grey haze colored purgatory, showing Dean who once favored black & white, now learns that monsters are not always that what they seem. But also a place where you can kill without remorse, a killing field were a human belief can turn into monsters.
Than in the end, to survive, one has to become a monster. Somewhat that Dean feared the most, became his reality. And sadly enough Dean reacted definite for what he was trained for, to kill. A soldier in line of duty, humanity lost. Nothing to gain or to lose, only pure instincts are of value. Even though it seemed that one could clearly see through the grey mist, yet the haze exhibited the pure action and distress of the moment but also laid a veil over the senses. And that is the true acceptation of mist, the eye can only see what appears in direct motion, everything else is hidden.
Sam”s flashbacks are the total opposite, they seemed bright and beautiful, Disney like style but odd. Odd in the sense of artificial. It didn’t feel real, like a wish believed or glorified memory. The hazed sun and bright colors veiled the forsakenness. Sam has now what he always utterly wanted. A normal apple pie life, a life he yearned for since Jess’ brutal death, a life he ordered Dean before he went to his rendezvous with Hell. His ultimate goal, his secretly kept desire, only to find out that it has a hollow aftertaste. That panic of lostness still arises, when he can’t see his allegedly beloved one. Despite the sun, the shadows of sorriness lurked everywhere. An illusion, a mortal cold lie to stay alive, encased in warm color bitter sweetness.
Now the moment Dean arrived, when he managed to break out of Purgatory and slip into reality, only to find in his opinion a reserved Sam. A brother that seemly managed life without his über-caretaking brother. No need for him. Dean was probably yearning for this brotherly moment.
In the grey sight of purgatory Dean’s raison d’être to stay alive in the cold nights were presumably the thoughts of his brother hunting and looking for him, because in the end that is what he would have done. The soldier always on duty, only to find that his brother hadn’t fulfilled any of his pretended expectations.
Calming the seeping rage is the only thing he supposedly can feel. Sam’s breach of his, Deans personal oath, his legacy “saving people, hunting things, family business“ characterizes the total sustained loss of familiarity. Without knowing, Sam committed in Deans eyes the worst betrayal of confidence. And there is only one option according to Dean that could evoke such behavior… a girl.
Can we, the viewer blame him for such biased contemplation? I don’t think so, cause the flashbacks gave us the opportunity to gain an insight in Deans battle to survive. 365 Days ultimatum tension, getting used to the idea not to out live the purgatory, yet to face the situation that without fighting he couldn’t even survive one day. No time for surrender. No time for sentiments in a place without time.
And Sam seeing his brother alive, not knowing what to believe. Shock and awe. Sam the profound thinker, lost again, torn apart by inner turmoil. By noticing how careworn his brother appears, to hear that the one he mourned for a year has spend the time in a never ending battlefield must be breath taking. Sam’s only conclusion is the ultimate inner retreat. Then how could you compare bloody purgatory with the darkness being lost in total forlornness. You can’t, it would seem inconsequential.
The soldier, über-caretaker Dean is not interested in sentiments, can’t understand the meaning of being dead, the loss of empathy over the year in purgatory makes him unresponsive for Sam’s total lostness.
Their brotherly communication is blacked out, sabotaged by the evil side effects trying to save the world from the Leviathans. Blinded by highly doomed expectations. Once two deeply bounded brothers, now the forsaken and the monster.
Sam the little brother, cursed by Lucifer, manipulated by the servitudes of the fallen Archangel, once an abomination in the eyes of Castiel, a pawn in the celestial chess game. Sacrificed in his young and vulnerable life for humanity, to show his big brother that according to his opinion, he is despite his flaws capable to cage the prime evil, only to end up as a chew toy for Lucifer and Michael, dying insane in a madhouse. His painfully gained reputation being trustworthy, lost in an moment of weakness and despair.
No rest for the wicked…. cursed for eternity.
Sam the latitudinarian, knowing that he can’t fight emotionally against his soldier / über-caretaker brother, just swallows his pain, like he always does. It is not about the lack of communication, this is a modern day fallacy, that if you talk about your feelings with your chosen companion, he or she would understand your motivations. It only has to do with implicit respect. Not more or less. In as much you respect a person with all his flaws, you trust him deeply by your heart, and if you don’t respect a person, well you don’t trust him. (definition of “respect” by the free dictionary: Willingness to show consideration or appreciation. / To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem. / To relate or refer to; concern.)
And here lies the root of all Winchester issues. Dean is the cognitively product of his father John. A father whose beloved wife has been killed in the nursery of a 6 month old boy. Now the circumstances that John would ignore his skepticism against Sam, who has been blood feed by a demon, are extremely unlikely.
John probably loved Sam but deep in the inner core of his heart, he was afraid of this child, never knowing what this demon blood has done to his precious young child. Not knowing if this child would turn out to be a demon manchurian candidate. He could never respect this child, but tolerate, yes that wouldn’t have been an issue.
Over the years this subliminal perception transformed also Dean. Now Dean loved his father but also his little brother. He stands right between two defining emotional main factors. These main factors determine subconsciously his behavior. Yes he loves his brother to the deepest core of his heart, but buried strongly under his heart gnaws the suspicions, the same suspicions that his father over the years unknowingly shared with his unblemished son. Therefore Dean is cautiously inconstant with Sam. Like a greek tragedy, the dead father echoes out of the past and without being aware, determines the future.
Sam on the other hand has the intellect to differentiate, he knows about Dean’s issues and over the past he not only got used to them but he also surrendered. Not because he’s weak or would be physically not able to fight back, nay cause he respects Dean and hence accepts his flaws. Clearly evident, in the scenes when Dean loses the ability to argue and by beating Sam gets physical. Yet Sam mainly doesn’t fight back, just accepts the beating, knowing that the hits hurt Dean emotionally more than him physically.
In the end scene “Sacrifice,” Sam’s revelation mirrors his constant perpetual struggle fighting against the echoes out of the past. “You think…I can’t be trusted again…“ Again…again…again. Literally the viewer can feel, not only see in the expiration of Sam’s physiognomy, the repercussion hammering throughout the years into the deep by sadness darkened valley of Sam’s soul. The last 6 months he had to fight constantly on two battlefields, Deans high expectation resulting from the past, the gnawing suspicions and the purgatory Dean, who’s empathy for his brother was stripped to the bones. A combat that was at prior not winnable. Dean the soldier can not intellectually understand, that Ruby, killing Lilith, letting out Lucifer and his soulless time, was the result of a heinous plan, created by powers far beyond the human imagination a millennium years ago.
How could he, the leopard can’t change his spots. Dean’s strength, is his pure unquestionable belief of the free will, to sense what is right and than react. But he doesn’t consider that to respond the right way, you not only have to know the truth but you have to accept yourself with all flaws. But if the truth is manipulated or veiled, and you deny the inner core of your self, who can tell in the end what is right or wrong? Reality versus wishfulness.
Dean’s negate of the past blinds him, forestalls him the utmost acceptance for the flaws of his brother, “That’s right Cas let me down, you let me down…goodbye Sam…“(S8 “Southern Comfort”) Even though the Spectre possessed Dean, the rage and the keen disappointment were already lingering under the surface, waiting for the moment to burst out. Therefore Sam is doomed, this is the one and only curse Sam presumably never can break.
The first time Sam showed that he’s trustworthy was when he denied the yellow eyed demon and died. Resurrected by Dean…The second time Sam showed that he’s trustworthy was when he mentally tossed Lucifer in the pit and died. Resurrected by Castiel…The third time Sam showed that he’s trustworthy was when he almost died by indulging Lucifers torture, triggered by the megalomania Castiel. Cured by the reformed, and than by Sam pardoned Castiel.
Sam: “So? You think…I can’t be trusted again…“ How long can a human withstand a lifetime battle against the Universe and the shadows echoing out of the past, until the inevitable total collapse takes place? He can’t, he will always lose, their is nothing to gain, Sam has accepted that life isn’t a contest, there is no trophy after the last breath has been taken, surely Death will not hand over the first prize. Life itself loses its pertinence.
Close the gates of Hell and than rest for eternity…sigh no more…go to sleep…
“The dead they sleep a long, long sleep;
The dead they rest, and their rest is deep;
The dead have peace, but the living weep.“
(Samuel Hoffenstein)
In the end the brothers fight against demons, are childhood nightmares and legends, but their main struggle is fought against them selfs,…sense versus sensibility …reality versus wishfulness.
Our world is made of dreams and make believes. Charlie’s nightmare in “Pac-Man Fever“ opens Dean’s eyes, life is not about being a hero, or to clutch and carry out sacred principles. Life is the need for each other, we only can gain life when we accept, forgive and let our inwardly demons go.
Charlie has to let go of her mother and Dean has to let lose of his über-caretaker and control obsession. The moment at the base hospital, Dean presumably acknowledged that his attitude to be the main mover and shaker would only lead to the point were Sam would turn into a shadow of him self, an empty shell, not the brother or comrade he once was. At this moment, Dean gains his strength back to recognize and emphasizes, that the only need his brother seeks is his big brother. A brother that blindly trusts and respects without doubt. The four year old brother that comforted the toddler, when the world around was burning down and the lightness of being, dissolved into smoke
Let go….I’m holding you little brother…
interesting take on the brothers relationship. Reminds me of a quote i recently read:
Love is friendship that has caught fire. It is quiet understanding, mutual confidence, sharing and forgiving. It is loyalty through good and bad times. It settles for less than perfection and makes allowances for human weaknesses.
THANK YOU!
This is the first article that brought me to tears and touched me deep since a long time! I don’t have much else to say than -thank you!
You’re highlighting the brothers relationship + including Sam’s side in way I feel is honoring him as a person and his point of view!
The words Sam spoke in Sacrifice have even more weight when you look how often he really prooved, he can be trusted, and that he is a good person, it makes ME as viewer WORN OUT to see Sam struggling with this issue his whole life- and it comes again and it comes again and again and bites him in the back! Can Sam ever conquer in his life?
This article is amazing! Left me so emotional and without words. Thank you!
Not much I can say, this is my understanding of the brothers too (though I don’t know how to say it as well as you have). And my understanding of the point of the show, really. For me it is so totally NOT about the mytharcs (though coherent plots are very welcome 🙂 ) Thank you!
That was really amazing! Thank you so much.
Very interesting article Sabath68. I have always felt the foundation of the show was about these brothers, their relationship, and their journey.
I have two things I feel differently about, One is that John didn’t respect Sam and infected Dean with that attitude subliminally. I think John both loved AND respected his son. The fact that they butted heads, was a byproduct of Johns constant fear for what the future held for his son, and the fact they are both stubborn strong-willed people IMO.
The second is that Dean walked around with all that spectre fueled anger and rage towards Sam just under the surface. Dean is an angry person but I never felt it was directed primarily at Sam. He has been very angry with Sam at times lashing out physically. Sometimes Sam has disappointed him and he showed it. Not always in an appropiate way! However I do think in spite of that he has always loved and respected Sam and for the most part trusted him. In the spectre episode all of his victims had minor or long buried grievances that were magnified to a murderous intent. Dean was already feeling hurt and let down and so that was low hanging fruit for the spectre. Yes, everything Dean had ever been angry over was dredged up from his memory and flung at Sam (I’ll never understand why the soulless thing was included, Dean did not hold that against Sam) but I do not feel that it was a boiling, simmering cauldron of rage just below the surface in Dean’s everyday life. I do not like that scene, that episode, or the way the brothers were written in S8, the early episodes.
I don’t think either John or Dean set out to hurt Sam, they loved him and were trying to protect him in their brusque way. But Sam has been hurt deeply by all that he has gone through.
Thanks for the thoughtful piece.
love you guys! 😉
Amen…thank you for putting so eloquently what I’ve always believed to be so..for the most part….but I agree with Leah regarding jw. I also agree that dean’s anger during sc was more about him than Sam. Based on what dean said to cas in alsok, that he didn’t leave him in purgatory…i believe that it wasn’t Sam leaving him that made him angry, it was his belief that he left cas. His remark about Benny being more of a brother…that was dean needing to believe in Benny…the other stuff..well dean was lying to Sam re real deal with benny&dean did put Benny in him..like Sam put db in him…just think it was old stuff that disappointed dean at the time mixed with stuff he was doing in present all intertwined..other than that…i am of similar mind.
Very nice, sabath68. Very well put.
I agree with your take on most everything… all the brother emotions have been there since the beginning. The only real quibble I have is this:
Quote:
“With Sam, in the end of S7 the viewer observed the total climax of the brothers nightmare, to suffer the loss of one of each other. Crowley said to Sam, “It looks like you are well and truly on your own.” Truly on your own…Sam’s fragile world literally exploded when the Leviathan blew up. The worse case scenario happened to Sam. Dean, Sam’s guiding figure throughout his entire life vanished in total nothingness. No time to prepare, to time to plan and no time to evaluate.”
Sam’s been there before. Most recently in Season 7. In the exact same spot where Dean – his stone number 1 and only remaining relative or friend – disappeared without warning. And Sam did not break.
I agree 100% on all the brother feels, EXCEPT the instantaneous decent into grief and despair. Recent experience would’ve shown Sam there was hope in making the attempt.
Quote:
“The only way for Sam to survive this immense loss was to flee from reality and therefore accepting the total annihilation of hope. Because “looking & hunting“ for Dean would imply the deep profound hope that his brother is still alive. But how can someone believe in hope when there is no hope anymore. “:….
IF Sam had started the search, as he did in Season 7, and had encountered only frustration, THEN I could see him losing his hope, and could agree with you completely.
Otherwise, well done. And thanks for the great read.
Leah D & Nappi815, like I wrote, there is no right or wrong, only uncountable perspectives, each individual, because each viewer sees and feels something different.
My conclusion is based on the advice John gave to Dean bevor he died „if need, kill Sam“ not „try everything to save Sam“. It was Dean, that said he will try everything too save Sam.
Therefore a father that recomends death instead of saving, imo shows a very deep insight into John’s hidden angst against Sam. A person full of rage with two little innocent children.
Psychological speaking, parents for the main part try to hide their fears from their children. Because children have a natural blind faith to their parents, and normaly parents try not to break by any chance this illusion. Even if parents don’t want to realise it, children always feel unknowingly, that something is not right. Some children react obedient, and some disobedient trying to break free.
Dean the obedient son, and Sam the one that always wanted to get away.
And if we like it or not, children are a mirror of their parents. Thats why psychologist always ask about the childhood, because from the childhood perspective you can relate to the parents and their influence. Or easy said we are all the product of our parents, if we like it or not.
Everybody can relate too „ you are like your mom or like your dad“.
When I was young I personaly hated it when my dad said to me „ you are like your mom“, now older I only smile and accept it, because she was a great person.
Of course Dean doesn’t want to hurt Sam deliberatly, but he is only a flawed human. That is why Dean is also suffering, he is suffering because his inner anger is sometimes so overwhelming, that he can’t controll it. Dean the controller losing controll, this must be a devastating feeling. And without him wanting it, it breaks free and harms the person he swore to keep out of harms way. We all know this phenomenon it always ends with „ I didn’t mean it that way…“.
It is like Oscar Wilde said „Each man kills the thing he loves…“
And Sam, the beloved little brother with whom Dean spends most of the day, is the one that gets with no ill intent, the punches. And Sam knows his big brother by heart, he always looked up to him, endures the punches.
And that is imo what family stands for to realise, accept and tolerate the strengths and weaknesses of each beloved family member. And last but not least to forgive.
Sorry for my german/englisch wording and spelling. Alice was so kind to share her time, and edited my writing. Alice THANK YOU!!)
And to the WFB readers, thank you, it was a pleasure to write this, but I have to mention that it happend by accident, as the server from WFB „broke down“ I was writing a response to a post, and WFB was gone, but not my thoughts, so well I thought, lauren behold go on with the writing. And Alice was so kind to publish it.
[quote] At this moment, Dean gains his strength back to recognize and emphasizes, that the only need his brother seeks is his big brother. A brother that blindly trusts and respects without doubt. The four year old brother that comforted the toddler, when the world around was burning down and the lightness of being, dissolved into smoke[/quote]
Hi Sabath68 question for you – Ok so a lot of the reason why your post cheered me up today (and I have to say I need it WRT Show) was because of this section I quoted above. But now I realise it is ambiguous and that is making me sad again 😕
Can you clarify for me who is who in the second sentence? Is it that the baby brother needs an older brother that “blindly trusts and respects without doubt” or is it the other way around?
It didn’t occur to me until later because there has never been any doubt about the fact that Sam trusts and respects Dean but the whole of season 8 was shown to cast doubt (to put it very mildly) on whether Dean has any trust for Sam.
However it seems to me that that point has gotten lost (by the fans? by the writers?) because of the reconcilliation in Sacrifice (which was a heartfelt request for trust and a heartfelt response of ‘it’s ok I will sacrifice everything and everybody for you, I will look out for you,I say hurtful things but I didn’t mean them’ *sigh* *does not answer request*) so I am now not sure which one you mean?
Whichever the answer is I loved the rest of your post – it really does feel like how I feel about the brothers and why they are who they are.
However I really don’t think that logically what happened in Sacrifice solved any of their problems, it just laid them out to be seen.
ST50
Hmm… I personally have not seen it that way, because the time when Dean was „gone“ Sam knew where he was. Only the posability for example to get Dean out of hell wasn’t given, but he knew where Dean was or when Sam was trying to break free, he knew in the end how to reach Dean.
But with the Leviathan incident, there was no guide, and all his closest friends were dead, like Crowly said, „ I don’t know where Dean is… / You are now truely on your own.“
The King of Hell stressed explicit Sams deep hidden fear.
Also Sam mentioned too Dean in S7, that he should never leave him alone. We also know, that Sam is the „planer“, he has to plan everything before he goes in to action. Dean acts the otherway around, he always acts first.
And now the last scene, -BOOM- Dean gone, no instructions, no scrpt where he could be, no one that could give him advise. No plan, nothing to hold on.
Like Deans controlling attitude, Sam has to evaluate everything, this gives him security.
But in this moment, nothing, all gone. Here in this scene imo Jared performance is brilliant, you can realy feel the panic slowly rising out of the inner core of his heart.
What is panic? A sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, that produces hysterical or irrational behavior.
And Sams behavior was irrational. That is why seldom „normal“ people understand depressed or panicked people, their action does not bear any logic.
Also I personaly couldn’t -see- any hope.
What is hope? The feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best.
Now, Sam had lost his fundament of life. His family. His guiding brother. Personally imo that feels hopeless.
In S7 Dean wasn’t „lost“ Sam always knew where he was, he had his phone number, he knew where he lived, there was no reason to be in panic.
What imo you are mentioning, is the total confusion between reality and hallucination. The lack of clearness or distinctness. And there in the warehouse Sam said to Dean „I thought it was you“ and not „I thought you were dead“.
They seem likely, but from a pyschological perspectiv they are two different mental issues.
-Shizophrenia is a mental disorder that may cause delusions, paranoia, hallucinations, disordered thinking and behaviour and catatonia. => caused by Lucifer
-Panic is a sudden sensation of fear which is so strong as to dominate or prevent reason and logical thinking, replacing it with overwhelming feelings of anxiety and frantic agitation consistent with an animalistic fight-or-flight reaction. => caused by the ad hoc loss of Dean
#12 – Sabath68
Thanks for your reply. The episode I was referring to was the one with Chronos. And No. Sam did not know where Dean was. Did not have a phone number for him. Dean could have been anywhere in time.
Believe me, I have personal experience with depression and panic, so it’s not that I don’t understand it.
But thanks for trying. I just won’t ever accept that Sam collapsed without ever making an attempt.
That’s on me, and I am fully aware that I am in a minority.
I still appreciate the rest of your article. And I’m glad for the circumstances that led to its being shared here.
Hi sabath68, in case it didn’t come across I really enjoyed and was moved by your article. Of course there is no right or wrong only our own perspectives! I was offering mine in those two instances. I recall John whispering into Dean so we never got a word for word,so my take was that he said something along the lines of, do everything you can to save your brother but if he turns evil……I think John loved his boys very much, in spite of not always being a model father. But viewpoints differ often. Fair enough. 🙂
[quote][quote] However I really don’t think that logically what happened in Sacrifice solved any of their problems, it just laid them out to be seen.[/quote]
100 % Agree 😉
Thats why I love SPN, the dramatic is like an ancient greek tragedy were flawed humans fight against all odds.
And thank you, but please don’t be sad 😉 You are the lucky ones, I have to wait for the premier till wednesday ;-(
Now to your question.
As I see it, Dean realises in Pac Man, that Sam does not need a bossy, controll nerd, or hero (even though Dean looked good in that uniform^^) as a brother. But only the brother as he was in the beginning of their hunting career, the trusting and guiding brother. The BIG Brother, Sam always looked up to.
IMO in that moment as Dean pushed the curtain aside, he was shocked to see Sam lying there. In this moment I asume he realised, that what he said to Charlie, would be hollow, if he wouldn’t accept his own fear in losing Sam.
Charly had to let her mother go, to gain peace.
And Dean had to accept that his patronization towards Sam doesn’t build confidence but only diminish it.
Only by being the big brother he once was, loving without doupt, he could give Sam the strength to end the trials, and hoping that the trials would end all problems.
But in the end it didn’t turn out that way….
[quote]
As I see it, Dean realises in Pac Man, that Sam does not need a bossy, controll nerd, or hero (even though Dean looked good in that uniform^^) as a brother. But only the brother as he was in the beginning of their hunting career, the trusting and guiding brother. The BIG Brother, Sam always looked up to.
But in the end it didn’t turn out that way….[/quote]
Hi Sabbath, thanks for the reply I guess we are on the same page! I see what you are saying. That whole scene was basically what they did before in Point of No Return (which I feel they earned more than this one, but never mind) and honestly have done a few other times with Dean, it is about time they let it stick. “you can trust Sam. He is there for you. He is capable of solving the problem in the situations where only he is permitted to do it. He will do whatever needs to be done for you and for the greater good. (Sometimes he will think you are dead. Hah – he won’t ever make that mistake again. He will end up camping out beside Dean’s grave when he is 90 just in case :-* ))”.
This bit should be in the bitterness thread, warning*** Anyway the writers need to let go of torturing Sam a bit because this particular viewer is not enough of a masochist to hang around watching a character she likes endlessly having awful things happening to him – for which he is subsequently blamed – without some respite from the gloom (I got all that out of my system watching 24 😀 ).
EDIT (lots later): Ok, so the above was Mr Hyde talking … Dr Jekyll here is looking forward to the premiere and has faith in the excitement that everyone in the show is displaying 😀
[quote]#12 – Sabath68
The episode I was referring to was the one with Chronos. [/quote]
Ahh…now I know what you mean 😉
Here I asume, that Sam knew what he had to do. He had Bobbys scriptures and Sheriff Mils on his side. He was intellectually prepaired.
Therfore he was yes surprised, but with Bobbys scripts and Sheriff Mils he knew right away that Dean can be brought back and the pagan God can be killed. Nothing unusual. Same procedre as always. Look it up, and kill.
But the Leviathans, tricky mean bastards, no script, no instructions, nothing. It took the brothers almost half a season to find out, how to kill them. And Bobby was the one who, with scientific trial & error or precisely the cleaning efforts of Jody, gave them the hint.
That is why I pointed out that Sam is the planer, to plan, to evaluate gives him the security to act.
And than King of Hell arrives and is enjoying the fact, that there is no way Sam could find out where his brother was or what had happend.
Sam has been coldly hit between the eyes with the sudden and explosiv disappearance of Dean.
And if somebody explodes right in my face, I would asume, that he is dead.
That is why I did’nt see or feel any similarity between Chronos and Survival of the Fittest.
This was a beautiful and insightful article. Please don’t stone me for saying this but I for one don’t think the writers considered even 50% of what you wrote here, but the fact that you found these meanings and shared them with us brightened my view of Season 8 a little.
[quote] Please don’t stone me for saying this but I for one don’t think the writers considered even 50% of what you wrote here, …[/quote]
😆 Nope, I’m bad at throwing things…
I had the same thought. I was thinking great now you are analysing a TV show, what next? But than I thought about my time in school, were we had to analyse Goethe’s Faust or Euripides Medea, heavy duty stuff and they called it education. So why not analyse our Brother’s interaction. After all they are fighting against pagan Gods and have moral & ethic issues, the same issues as the old greeks had. And the old greeks they loved, hated, faught against Monsters, Titans or even their Gods. I mean read Ulysses, that’s a historical roadstory. The only difference is they were on a ship, and had not a beautiful Impala. 😆
Therefore, if I could entertain you and the other WFB readers than it wasn’t totally for nothing.
sabath68, i hope you didn’t think i was being negative towards you in any way. i thought your post was beautiful and i agree with most of what you said. it’s just that this show is so complicated as are sam and dean. there is so much to them both. and sometimes you are so busy watching the eps now, that you forget about the past, or at least some of those very important details from the past. i agree with you entirely on sam. i never thought sam did anything wrong at all, as a matter of fact, given all he’d been through, i thought this was the most realistic sam has ever been. i agree that tatat was a totally different circumstance than sotf. so much has happened to sam since tatat. his mental state took a pretty bad beating. i never really saw sam being able to come back from that, not on his own without his touchstone. so i’m in total agreement with you on sam.
john, i always felt he was afraid for sam. from the moment he found mary burning on sam’s ceiling, i always felt john knew that sam was in danger. i think john’s fear took over and impacted both his children in a negative way. sam always feeling left out. feeling like a disappointment in his own family. dean inheriting that same fear for sam and at times being run by that fear. i think dean has been hard on sam because of it.
dean he is very complicated indeed. i found your thoughts on the subject quite helpful to me. at first i was pissed at dean for thinking so little of his brother that he would assume that sam would leave hunting because of a girl. after everything they’ve been through, that that would be sam’s reason. i was livid at dean for thinking so little of his brother. then after rewatch i thought, maybe it wasn’t so much about dean thinking so little of his brother as it was dean thinking that little of himself. that seemed more likely and i wasn’t angry at him even though i felt he acted like an ass quite a few times. but then after reading your thoughts, it makes sense to me, that dean was simply incapable of sentiment at all. dean’s yearning to believe benny to be the exception to the monster rule makes sense too, if you look at it the way you have, dean being with monsters for so long, that he in essence believed he became one himself. when in rome. befriending a monster and needing to believe that he can be the exception was important to dean, because he needed to trust in his human self and not the part he considered a monster. in hell dean became the torturer and enjoyed it. it’s not so hard to understand that dean would consider himself a monster. he once told ben he was someone you didn’t want at your dinner table. sam has always kept dean human, much like dean has always kept sam human. they in essence complete ea. other.i never felt like dean really was protecting either sam or benny in cf, i always felt he was protecting himself. i still feel that way.
as for dean’s harping on sam’s past mistakes, even ones that weren’t sam’s fault, well that’s complicated too. i honestly don’t believe that dean doesn’t think that sam hasn’t paid for ruby/lucifer. i tend to think of his listing of sam’s crimes as times when sam left dean. ruby was sam’s legitimate screw up which led to him ultimately jumping into the pit to make amends. by doing that, sam left dean. not only did he leave him, but dean knew the entire time what sam would be enduring. cas bring sam back souless wasn’t sam’s fault but sam’s body is there but sam isn’t. must’ve been torture for dean knowing his brother was still in hell. sam not looking, well it’s not a crime to believe that your brother is dead. he did nothing wrong. but dean is still angry at sam. perhaps because sam not realizing his brother wasn’t dead, had dean stuck in a place that eventually started to turn him into a monster. dean was liking that he can kill without guilt,. a true soldiers world. he may have even felt at home or some level of comfort which may have possibly scared him. that guilt could very well lead to his anger at sam. or maybe dean knew that this time, he left sam. that weighed on him. what i know is that neither one had their head on straight. dean and sam have a relationship that’s more than just brothers & that’s significant too. dean is sam’s mother too. he’s always been. he’s sam’s parent & no matter how much sam may scoff at dean, sam will always see dean in a parental way. that’s why disappointing dean is the worst thing sam can do. i mean who out there would really be devastated if they disappointed a brother or a sister. but sam respects dean more than his own father. dean, as a parent, will be disappointed at times with their children, but they will never be a disappointment to them. as a parent, the child is their world. they do all for them. they want for them what they didn’t have. they want them to be better than they are, which i think sometimes dean wants for sam. do as i say, not as i do kind of thing.
bobby once told dean they were hard on sam and i think it’s true. dean is hard on sam, but only because he loves him. dean may have laundry listed all of sam’s apparent sins to confess in sacrifice, but don’t think for a second that dean is unaware of his sins. he is totally aware. i think that’s one of the reasons he’s sometimes hard on sam. i don’t think he wants sam to be like him because dean thinks so little of himself. sam has admired noone except dean his entire life. sam once told dean he was the least of everyone. dean believes that he’s the least. they ea. think so much more of the other, it’s really quite beautiful, even though you want to knock both their heads together and flat out look them in the eyes and tell them they are the best of everyone. i guess what i’m saying is that their perception of ea. other has been misguided at times because of their disappointment with themselves. they both seem to think neither of them is worthy of the other. but what a contradiction because they love ea. other unconditionally. my hope for the coming seasons is that now that they realize how much they ea. value the ea. other, talking will come a little easier for them both. not talking talking, but discussing the emotional stuff without fear of disappointing the other or seemingly feeling the other will see them as weak. i personally think we have reached that point and i’m very excited to see their bond grow even stronger now. 😆
i feel like i need to edit myself regarding what i feel was going through dean’s head regarding purgatory. i’m not saying that dean believed he turned into a monster, but i do feel that he believed his was close to it. it’s my belief based on what dean has said, that perhaps he enjoyed purgatory in a way, that he felt a comfort in being there. that most likely freaked him out. i think he took it out on sam. that’s what i was trying to say if it didn’t come out clear enough.
sorry…
Hy Nappi815
Sorry it wasn’t my intend to be harsh. Mea culpa
In a way we think likely, but with John I see in a medical pov. For example when parents have a toddler, and the doctor predicts, this little one has a genetical defect but they can’t say when it will occure. The parents will act differently with their child as parents with healthy kids.
Their interaction with their child will unconsiously determin the behavoir of the child.
Sadly to say children can feel the fears of their parents, of course the children can’t say what it is but they are like antennas they receive the vibrations and decode it into there understanding.
And John, like I wrote loved his boys deeply, after all they were also Maries babies. But as we know John became a introvert hunter, he didn’t have any buddys and his main goal was to get the YD, and he had no problem leaving his boys alone by them self, because he had a mission, he had to get his revenge.
So, the YD was his ultimite purpose in life, but also the boys. Like a adict he had to decied what is more important chasing or raising the boys. He choose revenge.
Now with so much hate in his heart, I can’t believe that he would totally ignore what happend to Sam. It must have made him nuts not knowing what the demon blood did with his little one. He probably watched over Sam, always waiting if something „strange / out of the norm“ would happen.
When John said to Sam „ I didn’t want you to be alone…“, it sounded comforting, something we would expect from a father, but what if you end the sentence with „because I fear you would become a monster…“. A hunters mind with a fathers heart.
Dean & Sam feel always guilty. Theire bound was characterized by their unique upbringing. A marin as a father, drilled them both to kill & survive, not to have 4. of July picknicks or softball training. They are not only brothers, they are also brothers in arms. Trained in strategical & tactical warfare, in jung age masters in marksmanship. Search and destroy, leaving no enimies behind.
Soldiers, brothers, father and son… Three personalities habited in two young men. Therefore they will always feel guilty, it doesn’t matter what happens, there will be always a reason to find something went wrong. Thats their tragedy, they will always feel highly responsible for the other. And if one gets hurt, the other will suffer.
Sam the younger brother always looking up to his older brother, and Dean always the caring one, he always cared for Sam and he will never stop carying for his younger brother. Thats there destiny.
But they are also humans.
Therefore there will always be a conflict in one way or other.
But the main point is not to count the flaws, but to have indulgence and to forgive.
An attitude both brothers have, because in the end it’s the family that counts.
Now enjoy the premier!!!
Sabath..i have this sneaking suspicion that we r in agreement 😆 …arthur…..welcome to our world….i look forward to reading your posts….
Beautiful analysis… and I enjoyed it even more because I’m currently on self-imposed exile from twitter while the season 9 premiere airs in the US (I’m in Australia, so I have a few more hours of waiting). The anticipation is killing me 😕
[quote]And Sam seeing his brother alive, not knowing what to believe. Shock and awe. Sam the profound thinker, lost again, torn apart by inner turmoil. By noticing how careworn his brother appears, to hear that the one he mourned for a year has spend the time in a never ending battlefield must be breath taking. Sam’s only conclusion is the ultimate inner retreat. Then how could you compare bloody purgatory with the darkness being lost in total forlornness. You can’t, it would seem inconsequential.[/quote]
I loved what you said here… I always thought the same about Sam’s behavior at the beginning of the season. Anyhow, I can’t wait for another season of discussion on WFB. Enjoy the premiere everyone 🙂
KP_SPN, Thank You!
Sorry that I’m answering now, in some way I got hooked up on the premier. 😆
I’m glad to read that you see it the same way.
Like I tried to explain, every person has his own perspective, and how we personally see our selfs and behave in this world. Our hopes and wishes define us, and without knowing these are the inner mechanics that keep a person moving and make them unique. But they also collide with other person their wishes and hopes. The result, conflicts and misunderstanding.
And thats why I love SPN, as far as I know SPN is the only TV show that explores this psychological phenomenon in a highly sophisticated fictional way.
Just found this insightful analysis and while I agree with many points (especially why Sam couldn’t look for Dean), I feel like your belief that John knew about the demon blood is inaccurate. I think he knew about the Special Children (and possibly the demon blood) in the last year of his life but not before then. It wasn’t until he got on the scent of YED again that he realized Sam’s connection to the YED IMO.
Now perhaps he held some secret belief that Sam was to blame (like Max’s father) but his extreme concern that Dean never leave Sammy and protect him sounded less like distrust of Sam and more like worry that something might be after him.
The other part you don’t discuss is that Sam’s heaven is Dean’s nightmare. In The Other Side of the Moon, Sam couldn’t control what Dean saw. And Dean saw that Sam’s ‘greatest hits’ were to escape from Dean. When Dean came back from Purgatory, don’t you think that maybe this went through his mind? That Sam just wanted to be free of Dean?
So, while I agree with the bulk of your insights on Sam and Dean, I think the assumption that Dean’s distrust of Sam is sourced from John knowing about the blood is not accurate. I don’t know if that changes your perspective but it colors mine.
Hy Snazzy O, well I personally wouldn’t say “incorrect”, its only a different point of view^^ Therefore to say it is wrong, would implicate that “behavior” per se can be divided absolutely in good and bad. But what & who defines behaviorism, and what precisely directs behavior?
My main theory is that the subconscious mind lead our actions, not more or less. Now John didn’t have to -see- the actions of the YED, only the knowing(!) of the unknowing that this child had a interference with evil changed his perception towards the child. And that is a normal reaction.
And I know some don’t like to hear this, but we the children in higher sense are the product of our parents hopes & fears. That is why psychiatrist want to know all about parents and childhood.
About Dean, of curse Deans reaction is based on his memories, that is why its called perception.
Deans reaction to Sam is a product of his own biased perception. Overcoming his own biased perception gave Dean the possibility to understand his brothers reaction towards him.
Now letting his own biased perception go opened Deans heart not only to see but also too emphasize physically and mentally distress his brother went threw during the trials.
BTW the demon blood imo is only a variable or a metaphor to literally elucidate the not recognizable “bad blood”.
greetz from Berlin
@Sabath68, my apologies, I read this:
“John probably loved Sam but deep in the inner core of his heart, he was afraid of this child, never knowing what this demon blood has done to his precious young child. Not knowing if this child would turn out to be a demon manchurian candidate. He could never respect this child, but tolerate, yes that wouldn’t have been an issue.”
As a statement of fact. If it’s simply your perspective, then of course it’s can’t be inaccurate.
Now I don’t agree that John subconsciously thought Sam was demon cursed while growing up (I think it came after YED resurfaced), but I understand mileage may vary. So, no worries.
Sorry to [quote]@Sabath68, my apologies, I read this:
“John probably loved Sam but deep in the inner core of his heart, he was afraid of this child, never knowing what this demon blood has done to his precious young child. Not knowing if this child would turn out to be a demon manchurian candidate. He could never respect this child, but tolerate, yes that wouldn’t have been an issue.”
As a statement of fact. If it’s simply your perspective, then of course it’s can’t be inaccurate.
Now I don’t agree that John subconsciously thought Sam was demon cursed while growing up (I think it came after YED resurfaced), but I understand mileage may vary. So, no worries.[/quote]
Sorry to interfere, but recently I was thinking about the episode “In the Begining”, where Dean used the information on John’s journal to track down where the YED was going to be next. John had the information BEFORE he got a scent of the YED in S01, since he left his journal to his boys in the first episode.
But what he made of this information, or what he actualy knew, I don’t know. Is it possible he knew about Mary’s deal? Something must have raised red flags in him, considering the way he and Samuel died…
I don’t know if this is old news and has been already discussed at lengh. I joined the on-line discussion foruns only at the end of S06, so, if anyone has an answer, I’ll be happy 🙂
@Ale, good point about John having info on YED prior to Pilot. Rewatching the key scene in “Salvation”, John said they spent years trying to hunt YED but couldn’t find anything “until a year” ago and that perhaps it had come out of hibernation. All the dates in the book we saw in “In the Beginning” are pre-Sam’s nursery incident. And they are suspected involvement in incidents but the written entries on screen say nothing about “deals”. And YED making deals was a surprise to Dean. So I’m presuming he must have known something about YED but if he knew about baby deals he doesn’t have it in the journal because Dean said he’d read it cover to cover many times. So, why keep that particular bit out of the journal? The other confusing element is that he didn’t know Mary’s Dad was killed by YED or again, he left it out of the journal. Which leads me to say…. either he was keeping two sets of books or he didn’t know about the kids aspect. Also, the whole point of “In the Beginning” (per Cas) was to show Dean that he couldn’t change destiny and so that Dean would learn about Sam having demon blood dripped into his mouth. So…did Dean change history (because his information is what drove Mary/Sam to Libby’s house)? Did the Angels run interference so that John never learned about the interaction between YED and Mary? IDK. But something doesn’t add up. Add in the Angel’s and their destiny agenda and it’s kind of difficult to say what should have logically happened versus what did.
But it’s a good point that John clearly had a list of YED events. The journal, at least, doesn’t appear to indicate he knew the YED events were demon deals for future babies.