Let’s Speculate: “Supernatural” 8.16, “Remember the Titans”
Warning!!! If you haven’t seen “Remember the Titans” yet, read no further or I will be forced to curse you so that all your comments will be read but not believed, Cassandra style!
That was a much better effort than last week’s episode. It was enjoyable. Didn’t knock my socks off, but I enjoyed it. It’s definitely the best of the episodes dealing with gods, too. I don’t have any crazy theories to toss out this week, either, unfortunately, so I’m just going to head right into the review part. With a quick sidebar about the commenting policy on Speculate articles.
I noticed a few of you said in the comments section last week that you weren’t totally familiar with how things work in the “Let’s Speculate” comment area, so I’ll just rehash quickly for you. “Let’s Speculate” articles are free zones. What that means is you can comment freely without worrying that the admins (myself, Alice, and sweetondean) will move your comments to another thread. HOWEVER that does NOT mean you are allowed to be rude, insensitive, or other inappropriate things in comments. We will still edit your comments if they cross the line and attack other commenters, the show writers, admins, etc. Basically, express your feelings but please use common sense.
All right, on to the episode. Let’s have some bullet points! I love me some bullet points. This is more or less in chronological order since that’s how I take my notes during the show. Because…how else would I take notes as it was going, self. Sheesh.
- Falling asleep at the wheel is the nightmare driving scenario, isn’t it?
- Did anyone else hope that the hit-and-run guy got some sort of comeuppance? I mean, he just did a hit and run! Bad!
- Not gonna lie, I had to look up the liver-eating-eagle myth before they told us because it was driving me nuts. It’s been a while since I brushed up on my Greek mythology.
- I bet Dean’s next home improvement scheme is gonna be building a garage for the Impala.
- Ewwwwww, Sam. Yuck. Spitting up blood is just…makes me gag.
- YES, he still wears the bath robe!!!
- And on a side note, HOW DID I MISS THAT DEAN WAS IN HIS UNDERWEAR WHEN WEARING THE BATHROBE, HOW?!?!?!
- Of course the sheriff would think it was a zombie. What else would a civilian think it was? Or, really, anyone not named Winchester.
- Ha, the sheriff is telling them to aim for the head.
- There were some nice pinking up effects when Prometheus woke up.
- “All I do is die.”ย Aw, poor Prometheus.
- “Like a real-life Kenny?”ย YES, “South Park” reference.
- I like it when people call them on the Fed routine. You’d think more people would, but I guess we’re all very trusting of authority figures.
- “Damn right I wanted to shoot some zombies.”ย
- Whose clothes was Prometheus wearing, Dean’s? They fit him nicely.
- Did they leave him alone in the room? COME ON! I just…I understand that storywise things need to happen, but it just. makes. me. so. angry.
- “Got pulled off a mountain in Europe.”ย Good nod to the Prometheus myth there.
- “What do we know that has Jason Bourne fighting skills, dies a lot, and has a history with violent women?”ย “I don’t know, you?”ย HEEEEEE. Though, you really lobbed that one in, Sam.
- Genetic curses. Interesting. Monsters can be made genetically, why not curses?
- Yes, summon Zeus and see what happens. This is gonna end well.
- Dragon penis. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. This week’s installment of “yes, this is an actual line of dialogue on ‘Supernatural.'”
- Dean driving a minivan. Season 2 flashbacks. Also, I kind of question Hayley’s letting Dean drive. “Yes, you’re trying to help my son, but you are also monster killers or something, so hell no, you’re not driving my car” would be my response.
- Smarmy Zeus is the best kind of Zeus.
- “Balls!” Yes, good, Dean.
- Can we talk about them just leaving Haley and Oliver over there right next to Zeus? Like, come on, guys, what was she gonna do? Of course she was gonna panic and give in! She’s not trained in badassery like you boys are! She has everything to lose! You need to make her come with you if you want her to leave the room! Seriously, it just. makes. me. so. angry.
- Zeus was Alastair levels of creepy and badass.
- Oh, Prometheus, pushing the arrow in was totally bitching. Though, let’s be real here. Artemis was sort of notoriously a man-hater, so having her fall for Prometheus…mm, no. There had to be another goddess to use.
- Sorry, but I wouldn’t want to stay around and smell a body burning. Also, Sam, what ice cream places are open in the middle of the night?
- Dean’s really invested in Sam living a normal life. That is kind of comforting to me, for some reason. Maybe it’s because it’s Protective!Dean, but he’s also older and wiser so would know when to let Sam go and live that life?
- Of course Dean would pray to Cass on Sam’s behalf. And it definitely shows how much Dean trusts Cass again if he is asking him to watch over Sam because Dean basically trusts no one to watch over Sam but the closest family. And of course Dean knows Sam’s hiding something from him because he’s observant. And also of course Dean knows that something is really up with Cass now because if Cass could show up after that prayer, he would have.
- Shit, yes, Meg is back! This makes me happy, more than I expected, not gonna lie. I’ve been wondering where she is for a while now.
Now we’re left with a 3-week hiatus until the show returns on March 20th. Waaaaah! But that means we’re heading into the home stretch, the meat of the season! And with an early renewal, we don’t have to worry about the fate of the show heading into the big summer hiatus, which is nice. But I’m getting ahead of myself. What did you all think of tonight’s episode?
Well, Jensen did it. He made me cry. That last scene. Although HE never cries any more.
I loved that they had the eagle. Way to keep up the lore. I love how they change it just enough to make it work for the show. I haven’t read about Greek gods since high school. Unless you count “Percy Jackson” books!!!
Thanks for the wrap-up. This episode was mostly a winner for me. I also noticed a few things I’d like to mention.
..Loved the bathrobe and jambes! Dean is so cozy there and enjoying his ‘legacy’…so proud!
…Thought it was odd they took the Prometheus family to the MOL bat cave. Secret’s out now.
…Loved the sherif believing in zombies. Maybe he’s friends with Jodie Mills!
…I’m not sure, but the secretary at the station looked a lot like Mackenzie Ackles. I’m not convinced but I had to replay it and freeze it. Looks a lot like her, anyway.
…Loved the dialogue, which was mostly intelligent and didn’t ‘dumb down’ Dean, except when he didn’t know where the costume jewelry ingredient could be found for the spell. I think they’d know where to find it.
….Prometheus pushed that arrow through so slowly, I would have thought Zeus would have felt it touch him and back up, but it was a neat concept.
….Do people usually take children out for ice cream while the adults are at a cremation in the field?
…Love, love Dean’s big bro prayer to Cas. Only thing that would have made it better was OPT (one perfect tear)..You all know which kind I mean. And at least they are not hiding their feelings, even if Sam hasn’t copped to coughing up blood.
…Nice shout-outs to Bobby. Miss him. “Balls!”
…As ‘gods’ go, this was interesting filler and the characters were intriguing. The writing was spiffy and there was enough reference to what’s going on with the guys. My only complaint was that they are wasting time and not advancing the plot enough. I guess they have a plan to bring it all together. I’m trying to have faith.
I forgot one: Did anyone notice the BULLET HOLE in the Impala just below the mirror on the driver’s side?
Bullet hole? When, where?
Looked like under the mirror on the driver’s side door. My hubby noticed it too, but he thought it was a ding. I thought it looked like a hole, but like it was shot out from the inside. I played it back a few times. Love to know what others thought of it.
No way! I shall have to have another look. Shall report back!
Hey fanotheboyz. I re-watched and I don’t see it. I see something in the scene right at the beginning of the episode, when Dean gets out the car to walk into the Sheriff’ s office and the camera is on the ground. But I don’t think that’s a bullet hole – that looks to me like a reflection or shadow. Was that when you saw the bullet hole or was it in another scene?
fanotheboyz
[quote]…Nice shout-outs to Bobby. Miss him. “Balls!”[/quote]
I miss him too! Who was responsible in killing him off? I think it was Gamble (how prophetic is her name) well it didn’t pay off Sarah! I think the boys do a lot better with Bobby around. Only Bobby could keep Dean in his place. Remember when we went all ‘pity party’ to Bobby about Sam, and Bobby goes “Well boohoo” Love it
I loved that scene, too. It was a huge mistake to kill Bobby off and I’m sure Carver knows it, but not much he can do now except show him in dreams or flash-backs. Unless he comes back like Gran-pa Campbell, but that would cheapen his wonderful death episode, right?
I have to agree with you that a garage or carport or something is needed at the MoL bunker. I’ve thought that since the first time we saw a shot of the Impala sitting near the door. Kind of hard to keep the thing a secret if they park cars in front of it all the time. But I guess it’s not going to be a secret lair since they brought Prometheus and family there. Told them about the secret society too.
I was kind of disappoined in the way Zeus was portrayed. He didn’t seem even as powerful as the witches in last week’s episode, and I agree with you that Artemis and a love connection seem a little forced. Overall I didn’t hate or love this episode, and I was hoping for a little more umph before the break.
I’m glad to see the writers planning to bring the villians back into play. I think Season 8 has left too much of the conflict be relationship based.
Thank you for this!
“Though, let’s be real here. Artemis was sort of notoriously a man-hater, so having her fall for Prometheus…mm, no. There had to be another goddess to use.”
I was commenting with a friend that if they’d made Prometheus’ son into a daughter, and had Artemis have to save her from big bad daddy, Zeus, it would’ve been more believable for me. Artemis was a huntress, and the PROTECTOR OF YOUNG GIRLS! Duh!
She was very definitely NOT going to be in love with Prometheus.
I loved the brother moments in this one, so, while there were many little issues, I’ll forgive them and just enjoy.
I really liked this one. I agree, definitely the best out of all the god episodes. The leaving Shane alone didn’t bother me, but I was yelling at them to escort them away from Zeus.
I loved Dean praying to Cas at the end. It had everything that Dean’s speeches last week were missing. This seemed all about worry FOR Sam, last week it was more about doubting him. Both are probably true, but this is definitely my preference. I also like that Dean seemed to know something was up with Sam but wasn’t angry, just worried.
But hands down my favorite line was “What do we know that has Jason Bourne fighting skills, dies a lot, and has a history with violent women?รขโฌย รขโฌลI donรขโฌโขt know, you?รขโฌย That completely cracks me up. And a nice acknowledgement to to the past in a hilarious way. Ben Edlund worthy.
[quote] But hands down my favorite line was “What do we know that has Jason Bourne fighting skills, dies a lot, and has a history with violent women?รขโฌย รขโฌลI donรขโฌโขt know, you?รขโฌย That completely cracks me up. And a nice acknowledgement to to the past in a hilarious way. Ben Edlund worthy.[/quote]
I loved this so much too! Made me laugh out loud. And it is a call-out to The Man Who Knew Too Much as well! (Sam’s description to the barmaid of why the cops are after him is him pulling the plot of The Bourne Identity out of his memory)
[quote]But hands down my favorite line was “What do we know that has Jason Bourne fighting skills, dies a lot, and has a history with violent women?รขโฌย รขโฌลI donรขโฌโขt know, you?รขโฌย That completely cracks me up. And a nice acknowledgement to to the past in a hilarious way. Ben Edlund worthy.[/quote]
Oh, yeah. This entire episode was Ben Edlund worthy in dialogue. Lots of wit. Loved it.
But even more than the joke, in this particular scene what got me was Sam’s exasperated/confused expression right after Dean said it. OMG – lovely. ๐
The dialogue and the brother exchange were just unbelievably better this week. Such an improvement over last week. The felt natural and honest, even if Sam was hiding his sickness.
Usually one of the best things about Dean’s lines for me is Sam’s reaction to them. In fact sometimes when they fall flat I think it’s because they are not being said to said to Sam. Because the person responding just doesn’t get Dean.
Oh my word OH my word! Kelly eilf sweetondean Bamboo and Leah. We always seem to be on the same page when it comes to episodes we love. I’ve just watched it and I LOVED this one. It has that same old pre season 6 SPN quality back, it just FEELS all feely again. From the dialogue to the camera work and the pace, it just all seemed right again to me.
[quote]Of course Dean would pray to Cass on Sam’s behalf. And it definitely shows how much Dean trusts Cass again if he is asking him to watch over Sam because Dean basically trusts no one to watch over Sam but the closest family. And of course Dean knows Sam’s hiding something from him because he’s observant. And also of course Dean knows that something is really up with Cass now because if Cass could show up after that prayer, he would have.[/quote]
I love that Dean has started to pull loved ones back into his life again. For a while I must admit I wasn’t seeing inside Dean! He seemed distant and cut off. But the prayer to Cas at the end had me thinking of the soliloquy in season 2 (I think), and I CANNOT tell you how happy that makes me feel.
[quote]Shit, yes, Meg is back! This makes me happy, more than I expected, not gonna lie. I’ve been wondering where she is for a while now.[/quote]
Sorry Ardeospina, did I miss something… Meg? where?
Oh and sweetondean. [u][b][i]DID[/i][/b][/u] you notice his beauuuutiful green eyes in this one. I must admit I thought of you when he was driving and the camera picked up how greeeeen his eyes are. Love lurrve luff luuuuve his eyes ๐
Meg was in the preview at the end for the next episode, airing March 20.
Thanks for your review – and getting itup so fast.
As I said on another thread 10 minutes into the episode, I am happy. This was a good, solid episode. It was entertaining, had good brother moments, and made you care about the guest stars. Some of my favorite moments:
-Dean knowing Sam is hurting in the beginning, and Sam trying unsuccessfully to hide it.
-Kenny reference. I have loved Dean’s pop culture references since season 1. I hope that never changes.
-The sheriff telling them about head shots. How much fun was that to watch?
-horrified, but have to admit – how great was the shot of the bird eating the liver?
-Loved Dean’s line about wanting to shoot zombies. Reminded me of him wanting to hunt zombies in Time is on My Side.
-Sam knowing the Greek mythology. I remembered a lot of that (but not all) but it was really cool to have his smarts used. And, Dean’s too. Good to see both brothers researching, and Dean finding the right passage -yes, with a classic bad joke, but that is part of his charm.
-Loved Dean coming back at Sam to solve the riddle of what fights like Bourne, dies a lot, etc. Classic fun, with good homage to past seasons. Of course, Dean could have been the answer too.
-Nice to have the brothers saving people, hunting things. How nice was it to watch Dean comfort the woman by putting his arm around her.
-Great brother moments, both together and apart, showing how much their family matters to them and that they are worried bout each other. Dean’s prayer at the end summed it up nicely.
-Well written, OF COURSE well acted, and well directed. Why doesn’t Boyum direct more on ths show?
In short, I liked the episode. It does not immediately jump to my favorites list, but it is good, and I know more things will jump out at me when I watch it a second time. And, I think it set us up nicely for the mytharc, Crowley, Meg and Castiel in the next episode.
God, just please, whoever wrote this episode needs to WRITE MORE. Oh, the brotherly love! Not to mention the dialogue was superb, lots of wit – just like I like it. The actors were great, the story was compelling, and I was entertained.
THANK YOU, SPN!
I give this one a solid B +
Oh my word! Just picture me doing a jigg in my study Bamboo, I just LOVED this one. If I could kiss the whole SPN team on this ep I would. I just posted above how weird it is that some of us have exactly the same feels on what eps we like. It just felt so pre season 6 again. I love Ben Edlund but I also love this guy toooo. Who directed again? I think it was Phil?
i think it was daniel loughlin. steve boyum directed.
I thought this was pretty good. Leaps and bounds better than last weeks. Best of the god episodes. I still wish they would steer clear of gods and witches though.
I liked the acting. Loved Zeus, he did have kind of an Alastair thing going on. The quiet little boy had such big expressive eyes, so sweet.
No brother tension. BIG plus. This was sensitive Dean week. You just never know from week to week what attitude the boys are going to have. I loved Dean wrapping his arm in a comforting way around Haley, seemed a little OOC to me but still nice. The prayer to Cas was really great. It made Dean’s headspace clear.
Poor Sam spitting up blood, so awful. This cannot be good. I am not looking forward to weeks of Sam suffering.
Thanks Ardeospina, always enjoy these first impressions of the episodes!
Hi Leah, yes… MILES better than last weeks clunker for sure.
I am developing a theory about WHY last weeks ep was just soooo bad. Alice (maybe it was Alice? Apologies if I am misremembering) alluded to TPTB changing the running order of things for a few the episodes and I wonder if last weeks Man’s Best Friends with Benefits falls into this category. I mean, the whole “trust issue” was such a step backwards for the bro’s after Trail and Error. That sentiment would have fit into things much better either just before or just after Torn and Frayed. I mean, for the episodes to have gone from the brother’s conflict in Citizen Fang to MBFWB and it’s questions of trust (it was less heated but still adversarial), THEN to the tentative truce at the end of Torn and Frayed, to finally the (seeming) resolution of Trial and Error would have made much more sense (I skipped over a few eppies, but you get my drift).
So, I began to wonder if MBFWB was originally designed to fit in around episode 9,10,11, but the PTB ended up having to change it’s slot for some reason. Maybe they were forced to doctor this ep up to fit in later in the season and add a bunch of stuff to make it current. It would account for the weird disjunct quality of the episode, no mention of the MoL and it’s HUGE step backwards in the brother’s relationship. Either that, or it was just plain bad writing…. ๐
E- I really hope you are right about this because it really doesn’t make sense at all otherwise. Unless the writers are working in a vacuum making no effort to look at preceding episodes. That was part of the beauty of EK he kept an eye forward and backward. I like JC and feel the show has improved a great deal this year but the tone shifts between the brothers are odd.
I’ve been watching the Community commentaries. And they were talking about how one episode “ate” another one, because it was so hard to film. In last weeks SPN, I’m wondering if it was just a multitude of factors that combined to make a uh less than stellar episode. J and J having to leave for the People’s Choice. Jared being sick and injured and then just running out of time to make improvements to a weak script.
[quote]I am not looking forward to weeks of Sam suffering.[/quote]
Ooooh, I am…. lots and lots of exquisite Sammy suffering and Dean worry. It will be delicious! ๐
Gotta love ya E.- You and your (slightly disturbing) love for angst. And your loathing for certain soft drinks. ๐ ๐
E, once again we agree. I have a slightly disturbing (thanks Leah) love for angst as well. At least when done well. I think that is why I love S5 so much. So much yummy angst.
Hi Ardeospina.
I really enjoyed this one, million times better than last week. I didn’t really notice any gaping holes in it, a few nitpicks yes, but there almost always is something to niggle so I’m used to it.
I myself aren’t that versed with the Greek Gods so I was able to just enjoy the story. On the other hand, I wasn’t that much peeved with Hammer of the Gods either… I’m used to Show taking it’s own view on the universal lore, some are winners and some not. Maybe they do these absolutely opposite angles on purpose… I don’t think I’ve ever been that insulted by their take on myths, but sometimes the dialogue or the dumbing down of S&D to work the story (or for exposition) just exasperates me to no end.
But I do think tonight was a really good story and it kept it’s momentum ’till the end.
All the guest characters were great, I really liked Prometheus and Haley. Zeus was really creepy and Artemis was silently somber. I also liked the kid.
And then there was Sam and Dean. Ah, again, SO much better than last week. They felt like themselves. Last week was a bit of a miss for me character wise mostly, their issues seemed a bit forced. But tonight, they were on key and I felt they were being more like themselves. And it was nice to see the MoL Hub again.
As much as Sam hiding his symptoms was a bit “ah, here we go again ” for me, it was handled quite nicely with Dean noticing it and not throwing a fit about it. Maybe he finally understands why Sam does this and just tries to deal with it. That prayer in the end was especially wonderfull, I love big brother Dean. Sam also tried to hint in the end about how things were, so I liked that too. Allthough I kinda hate that he’s losing his confidence but I guess it’s hard to maintain when you’re coughing up blood and all that. So, I’m really happy the way they’ve handled it so far. Good on you, Show.
Also SmartSam!! Hi, nice to see you!! Ah, I love SmartSam. That whole slammed-against-the-wall-moment with Sam being all cocky and brainy and Dean with his quips and WTF looks was just pure awesome. It made me laugh, a lot.
The special effects were yet again really good. There has been so many episodes where they’ve either been so “meh” that I’ve hardly noticed or so bad that I’ve eye rolled, but there’s been many weeks in a row now that I’ve noticed them in a “Cool!” way. The lightning SFX was particularly great. So, a big kudos, to the SFX team.
A few side notes:
– Prometheus? HAWT! Really, really hot. Like Patrick The Manwitch hot. Yowza. Too bad he didn’t have an accent… Why did he have to die, Show??? BOOOO!
– Dean in a robe, YES!!! Now, where are those glasses….
– Sam spitting blood? Made me worried. And then Dean came in and was all attentive. Ah, the love.
– A throwback to Bobby and the woodchipper! Precious!
– A group research session!!! I don’t know why, but that made me smile ๐
Thanks for the review Ardeospina.
[quote] I myself aren’t that versed with the Greek Gods so I was able to just enjoy the story. On the other hand, I wasn’t that much peeved with Hammer of the Gods either… I’m used to Show taking it’s own view on the universal lore, some are winners and some not. Maybe they do these absolutely opposite angles on purpose… I don’t think I’ve ever been that insulted by their take on myths, but sometimes the dialogue or the dumbing down of S&D to work the story (or for exposition) just exasperates me to no end.
[/quote]
Seconded and thirded.
Supernarttu
[quote]Also SmartSam!! Hi, nice to see you!! Ah, I love SmartSam. That whole slammed-against-the-wall-moment with Sam being all cocky and brainy and Dean with his quips and WTF looks was just pure awesome. It made me laugh, a lot.
[/quote]
Wasn’t that scene just the best. I agree that old feel has returned in this ep. Didn’t that prayer to Cass remind u of season 3 I think where Dean talks over dead Sam
Hi kaz1!
Yes, indeed this eppie had the older seasons feel to it, I noticed that too.
That prayer scene was just beautiful, I got all teary. And Jensen looked just breathtaking.
[quote]Now we’re left with a 3-week hiatus until the show returns on March 20th.[/quote]
[b]What!! [/b]. My giddy aunt. Sweetondean said it would be [u][i][b]2 [/b][/i][/u]weeks. I am now going to get serious gravel rash (on account of my lip dragging on the floor)
We’re back on March 20th, so that’s only the 6th and the 13th we’re without an ep ๐
[quote]We’re back on March 20th, so that’s only the 6th and the 13th we’re without an ep :-)[/quote]
I noticed they are replaying ep7 [i]A Little Slice of Kevin[/i] next week so guess we get some repeats to hold us over but it’s better than putting on some filler show.
oooh kaz1, thats gotta smart ๐
[quote]รขโฌลWhat do we know that has Jason Bourne fighting skills, dies a lot, and has a history with violent women?รขโฌย รขโฌลI donรขโฌโขt know, you?รขโฌย HEEEEEE. [/quote]
That was an awesome line, loved it, along with all the brother interactions. But there definitely were a couple of moments where I just couldn’t suspend my disbelief. Sorry… it doesn’t happen very often for me when I watch SPN, but it did during this episode ๐
The first one was when Prometheus said something along the lines of ‘it’s the only thing that makes sense’. He has just been told he is a Greek God & that’s the only thing that makes sense?? I personally think a bit more disbelief in this revelation would have been much more believable.
Also, summoning Zeus just seemed like a crazy thing to do – ‘death-wish-crazy’!! I kinda wish the writing team had picked a less well-known God for the boys to deal with… because disposing of such a powerful God as Zeus seemed a tad too easy (even for Sam & Dean).
Side-note: How can Sam & Dean be really worried that the trials will kill them, but act blase about summoning Zeus? I know they’ve taken care of Gods before, but Zeus? Really! I think I agree with Leah’s comment above about wishing they would steer clear of witches and gods ๐
I did love that we saw more of the bat-cave… but I didn’t love that they took strangers there. I hope they blindfolded these guests en route to the location.
I did love seeing Sam use his smarts when Artemis had them pinned to the wall, and Dean’s prayer to Castiel was wonderful. Overall, I enjoyed the episode and think it was an improvement over last week. But I’m more than ready to get back to the tablet/angel stories. ๐
I agree with your bat-cave comment. So, they finally took strangers there….hmmm. I think it was only a matter of time before they started doing so….. and that probably means that Kevin is next in line to see it. But, does any one else see a huge potential problem if/when Cas is made aware of this treasure trove of knowledge? He is (unwittingly) telling Naomi everything…. what if she is working against the brother’s? I mean we have NO CLUE what her actual agenda is…. could this lead to Cas giving her the info about the MoL bunker and then the angels destroying it? That would suck. I am getting more and more attached to the bat-cave every time they show it, and I would like to see it last for some time. I mean we haven’t even seen Sam’s room yet!
I read an interview the other day cant remember who with but it said that they dont have a set for Sam’s room and they dont plan to have one for now anyway.
This does not surprise me. Having a room would mean having to decide that Sam LIKES something enough to put it in a room and that is unlikely to ever happen.
Can’t say that surprises me either.
Anyway, Sam’s room would probably be a big blank as we have no clue what Sam likes.
Books and lots of spare PC parts.
The amulet – if it still existed. ๐ฅ
Seriously. What else has Sam ever cared about?
Okay, this is a little depressing. What would they put in his room to signify it as his? We don’t know his taste in music or what he likes to do away from hunting or anything.
You know that could be an amazing scene. If they show Dean looking around Sam’s room and realizing Sam has nothing beyond hunting anymore or that he as well as he knows Sam he doesn’t know really know a lot about him anymore outside hunting for the last few years. And learning more about Sam from that angle.
(remember me saying I like angst)
I see a bunch of Sammy’s room angsty fanfics on the horizon ๐
[quote]I see a bunch of Sammy’s room angsty fanfics on the horizon :D[/quote]
Ooo. Yes please? ๐ ๐
Ok, this st50 quote:
[quote]The writers wouldn’t have a clue what to put in it.[/quote]
just bugged the hell out of me, so, I kinda wrote a fic about Sams room.
I have no idea where to publish it though…
Is the Let’s Speculate article ‘that’ much of a freezone? ๐
YAY, the quoties worked!!!
Super
I’d LOVE to read it. Am new to this site so wouldn’t know how free the speculative part is. Try it, you might start a trend. ๐
[quote]Ok, this st50 quote:
[quote]The writers wouldn’t have a clue what to put in it.[/quote]
just bugged the hell out of me, so, I kinda wrote a fic about Sams room.
I have no idea where to publish it though…
Is the Let’s Speculate article ‘that’ much of a freezone? ;)[/quote]
Sorry for bugging the h out of you, Super, (It bothered me that it seemed to be true – or at least that WE didn’t know! ๐ ) But glad it inspired you to write! ๐ณ
Would love to read your fic. I hope it’s ok with Alice and company, but yes, please share!
Hi Super, Since you mentioned the fan/fic, and posted a little excerpt, I have been wanting to read the whole thing and just awhile ago I did (saw the link on CBOX). I had to tell you how wonderful and touching it was. I have never read any ff before but if what is out there is as good as this, I should be!!!
Hi Leah.
It was my very first! Ever!!
I’ve been reading fan fic for years but never in my wildest dreams did I think I’d write something…
But that dang Sams room kept bugging me so much ๐
Thank you SO much for reading it, I’m glad you liked it!!
Oh my, you’re right, sitting here trying to think of what we know that Sam likes … *crickets*
He would have a photo of Jess. Books – of lore and mythology maybe? Some reference to Gandhi? He likes football apparently (Heartache).
I am really reaching here…
Um, a player for his ipod?
[quote]I read an interview the other day cant remember who with but it said that they dont have a set for Sam’s room and they dont plan to have one for now anyway.[/quote]
A room for Sam would be a glimpse into WHO he is. What does he like? What would he want to keep?… We know Dean likes his music, his weapons, his photo of Mom, even his mattress….
What do we know of Sam and his likes? Nada, besides books, and they already have a massive library.
That’s why Sam can’t have a room. The writers wouldn’t have a clue what to put in it.
[quote][quote]I read an interview the other day cant remember who with but it said that they dont have a set for Sam’s room and they dont plan to have one for now anyway.[/quote]
A room for Sam would be a glimpse into WHO he is. What does he like? What would he want to keep?… We know Dean likes his music, his weapons, his photo of Mom, even his mattress….
What do we know of Sam and his likes? Nada, besides books, and they already have a massive library.
That’s why Sam can’t have a room. The writers wouldn’t have a clue what to put in it.[/quote]
This is actually my thought too. That besides a bed they wouldnt know what to put in there. I wouldnt deny outside of the big table and some books that it would be nice to personalize the place for Sam . ๐
I guess Sam’s “bedroom” is that living room. Music and all.
[quote] The writers wouldn’t have a clue what to put in it.[/quote]
And obviously, neither would we. ๐ฅ ๐ฅ
[quote][quote] The writers wouldn’t have a clue what to put in it.[/quote]
And obviously, neither would we. ๐ฅ :cry:[/quote]
Oh, I’d never thought of this until now. This is so sad ๐
I think Sam needs to get a dog, but I can’t see Dean agreeing to that! And then we’d have the problem of who would feed the dog while they are off on a case (unless they get the same person who cleans the bunker to do it…lol).
I think we should start a campaign to get the writers to show us Sam’s room. That way we can get to know him a bit better. I live in hope ๐
This is really sad. I seriously can’t think of anything that would say [b]Sam’s room[/b] as opposed to one of the Winchester boys’ room, other than picture of Jess or Yuck Amelia and hair products.
I did think of a dog too. He had one with Amelia and he had one when he ran away as a kid. So that is something that is just him, obviously. But that [i]would[/i] be very difficult for him to have as often as they are gone.
I suppose you could make the argument that he is just not someone who collects things, like Dean is. But what do we even know of his tastes? We know he eats salads. And used to dress in shirts only a man as gorgeous as he could pull off. But I really can’t think of him stating his tastes on anything other than the Stooges in last episode and that he thought Jet Li could beat Chuck Norris in a fight.
elif, I must have fan fictions now, just so I know what ideas they come up with.
I nearly included hair products but you know Dean’s hair doesn’t get like that on it’s own either … they probably have a lot of haircare stuff in the bathroom.
I believe that even if we knew more about Sam we would conclude that his room would be minimalist and spartan, that seems to be in character (see Mystery Spot and the way the trunk of the Impala was sorted while Dean was dead).
And thinking about it really, Dean’s room: hanging weapons on your wall as decoration? Over your bed? How is that relaxing as decoration ๐
Dean arrives in heaven (again):
Ash: Now what?
Dean: An axe fell on me
Ash: Were you fighting?
Dean: No, I was having a nap.
What are the earthquake stats for Kansas?
Yeah, I agree hair products would be in the bathroom.
I took the spartan look in MS as a sign of the OCD Dean’s death brought on, rather than a matter of taste. But I don’t think he would have an overly embellished room either.
Yeah I don’t particularly care for Dean’s decor. That would be a hilarious way for him to die though, so embarrassing. But I don’t think he has to worry about earthquakes in Kansas. I think we’ve only had 1 semi-large one in all record history and that was in the 1800’s. Think more tornadoes. ๐
You know when I wrote that about the axe over his bed I was thinking of the weapons on the walls. I didn’t realise until I did a rewatch of the last episode last night that there IS actually an axe balanced on its blade on the shelf behind the headboard of the bed. I was joking before – but now, that seems like a REALLY bad idea to me ๐
But if the bunker is tornado proof it’s probably all good!
I’d probably still move it. That seems a little dangerous. ๐
After all they face in daily Dean would probably find that amusing. I would be ironic if Dean died from the consequences of a loose nail. ๐
It wou;d be ironic….
I give up!
All I could think of when elif posted this was Six Feet Under when a woman was killed by blue ice(frozen sewage released from aircraft). And X-Files when a death psychic insinuated that Mulder would die from auto erotic asphyxiation. Such embarrassing ways to die, but kind of hilarious as well.
In Dead like Me the heroine gets killed by a toilet seat falling from the international space station….
Here’s what I’d like to see re: Sam’s room. I’d like to see Dean go in there to talk to Sam and then realize that the room is devoid of anything meaningful, decorative or nostalgic….. that it’s a cold, sterile, boring room. He then asks Sam why he hasn’t “decorated” and Sam first gives Dean a hard time about “decorating” but then lets it slip that he doesn’t feel the need, or want to, that he didn’t decorate while at Stanford or much even as a teenager; “why bother, Dean, we’ll only leave soon anyway” etc.. This then prompts Dean to want to find something to put into Sam’s room to make it more homey. Then we all go ‘awwwwwwww!.’
Dean seems to be really settling into the bunker. We’ve seen him in his jim-jams twice now. He’s bought a new mattress, he’s been stocking the kitchen and basking in the luxury of the hot showers. He’s been making himself at home. Sam, although he certainly seems to understand how important the bunker and it’s contents are, hasn’t been settling down in the same way. I want to see that.
That would be really really nice E. Is is at all possible that Sam relishes the library, the research, as his comfort zone? I would like to think that because it is just too sad otherwise. I wonder if keeping his mind occupied is soothing to him? Maybe it keeps his demons at bay. It would be wonderful to see him settle in, let his guard down.
Sam doesn’t seem to need ‘stuff’.
He’s not a materialistic sort of person.
He is so self-contained that he is all just there in front of you. You have to find out about him by communicating with him.
Since no one does he becomes an enigma.
He’s fascinating because of what goes on in his head.
[quote]
He’s fascinating because of what goes on in his head.[/quote]
…And he ain’t bad to look at, neither. ๐ณ ๐
Boooooo! ๐ฎ
Yes, they wouldn’t want Naomi or Crowley finding the bunker. I know that Sam & Dean understand that it’s important to keep it secret, because they worked so hard to stop Abbadon from getting the key. Plus, Sam heard what the old man said about throwing in the key and locking away the contents for ever, so it wouldn’t get into the wrong hands. So I was very surprised in this episode when they took strangers there.
I could perhaps understand if they decided to tell Garth because they’ve been working with him a while now, but people they had just met (and a child who may not be good at keeping a secret). It’s just asking for trouble.
Plus they really do have to do something about the cars parked out the front ๐
[quote]Side-note: How can Sam & Dean be really worried that the trials will kill them, but act blase about summoning Zeus? I know they’ve taken care of Gods before, but Zeus? Really![/quote]
According to SPN universe, Gods take their power through human worship. In Ancient Greece Zeus was very powerful, but nowadays… I don’t believe there are many who believe in Zeus. Although S&D found some conveniently nearby (I guess we have a little of everything and everyone in this world).
God, on the other hand, is pretty powerful, since a good share of the world population believe in Him.
This is consistent with the power of the human souls theme.
Good point Ale! A little 2 line reminder in the episode would have gone a long way to fixing the issue of taking on someone with such a seemingly powerful history. That might have been a good question for Haley to ask: “Isn’t it kind of crazy to try and take on the king of the gods?” to which Sam or Dean could have replied “the ancient god’s powers are taken from their believers, so they aren’t so powerful these days. Believe me, we’ve fought worse” … well, I ‘aint no writer, but something like that anyway.
Hi, E!
Didn’t Sam say something like that to Artemis? I watched the episode today at 6 am, so I was a little sleepy and I didn’t understand all the dialogue, but I thought Sam mocked Artemis’ power.
Hey Ale et al. Really interesting point Ale. Kind of like the – whatchumacalitt haunted house creature…umm.. Ghostfacers…damn, have to look it up…hang on..tulpa!
My interpreration tho of Sam’s point about Artemis being unable to find Prometheus, was Sam implying not that her power had waned, but that it was because she loved Prometheus and didn’t want to find him.
Oh. I have to watch it again. Thanks, magichappening!
๐
[quote]According to SPN universe, Gods take their power through human worship. In Ancient Greece Zeus was very powerful, but nowadays… I don’t believe there are many who believe in Zeus. [/quote] That is a really good point Ale. Because Zeus is quite the badass in the Godverse, but none of the Greek gods are worshipped anymore, God took over that job! ๐
[quote]According to SPN universe, Gods take their power through human worship.[/quote]
I take your point. But Zeus is such a powerful God that most people have heard of him (even if they don’t worship him). I also think he would be equivalent to the Gods they portrayed in ‘Hammer of the Gods’ and in that episode the boys were clearly overwhelmed. It took Lucifer to stop those Gods.
As E said, just a line from Hayley about how crazy it is to summon a God might have helped… or at least some hesitation about the wisdom of doing this… and a discussion about what could potentially go wrong. I mean, they said they were going to summon Zeus whether Prometheus was with them or not. It’s a bit reckless, even for Sam & Dean.
I should point out that this is only a minor criticism of an episode that I did enjoy. But it was one of those ‘very rare’ moments where I just came out of SPN world (and it was a shock, because I normally have no trouble completely losing myself in this world).
I also really needed to see Prometheus show some signs of disbelief about his situation, before he just accepted that he was a God. You know, like when Harry Potter was told he was a wizard ๐
The thing about the gods in HOTG is that several of them belong to religions which have at least as many followers as the religions we are more used to. As Zeus belongs to a pretty much obsolete religion you could say that there is reason for him to be weaker.
I liked this episode. I felt relieved that Dean knows Sam is hurting but wasn’t confrontational but supportive. Didn’t want to spend the hiatus with the brothers at odds. So done with the bitterness between them! Good story for a one off and both brothers in character and not a parody of themselves. Can’t wait to get back to the myth arc. It’s gonna be a long 3 weeks!
Very well written and good episode. I think the last time they did the other mythology gods thing was back in S5 “Hammer of the Gods” and that wasn’t a memorable effort.
Besides coughing up blood, anyone notice that Sam was having trouble catching his breath while digging up the grave with Prometheus? Looks like things are only going to get worse for him.
Sam’s conversation with Oliver at the end was interesting; almost paralleled Sam’s life as a hunter, being introduced to it at an early age and ultimately choosing to stay in that life.
Regarding Sam hiding things from Dean, I think both of them know each other too well. Especially after they’re conversation in the car on the way back to the bat cave, when he said he being naive about being able to escape the trials unscathed. Sam knows that Dean knows something is up but he’s not going to say too much because there’s nothing Dean can do about it and he doesn’t want his big brother to worry about him. Nice touch at the end with Dean praying to Cas to look out for his little brother; also liked Dean mentioning he felt guilty because he was supposed to be doing the trials (he shouldn’t but that’s just Dean being Dean) and acknowledging that they went in to this whole closing gates of Hell kind of half assed (or blind as he said).
A little speculating here but I don’t think Cas is going to be able to help/heal Sam; Sam has entered in to some sort of contract with God which can only end when the trials have been completed, or Sam dies, or both. But, then again, dying in the Supernatural world doesn’t quite mean the same thing.
Can’t wait for 3/20; Meg is back! I miss her. Always enjoy Crowley and Cas too but Meg is the longest running recurring character on the show, isn’t she?
Quoting njspnfan:
[quote]Sam’s conversation with Oliver at the end was interesting; almost paralleled Sam’s life as a hunter, being introduced to it at an early age and ultimately choosing to stay in that life.[/quote]
Nice catch! I noticed that too. And did you also notice that this was the first time the child spoke in the whole episode and also perhaps for a very long time? His mother said that when he began dying, like his father, that he had stopped speaking. Maybe the kid recognized a kindred spirit in Sam? It was a small moment in the ep, but a nice one.
I dont think Cas will be able to halp Sam at all, my guess is once you’ve enteres into the contract with God you either have to complete the trials or die for said contract to be up. I do expect Cas to at least pick up on Sam being in the contract though and obviously show some kind of concern over the side affects even if its in the form of a warning.
[quote]Always enjoy Crowley and Cas too but Meg is the longest running recurring character on the show, isn’t she?[/quote]
No actually believe it or not the Meg character (Rachel Miner) has only been in 6 episodes, Nicki Aycox (5). Bobby Singer (54) still holds the lead then Cas (22), then Crowley (20). You are right though, it will be good to have her back. Glad Crowley didn’t fry her like he threatened at end of s7.
Although Meg has had less episodes than Bobby, Cas and Crowley, she did appear first. She started in Scarecrow, long before Bobby, then came Cas and finally Crowley. So it kind of depends on how you describe long running. Also, technically, she appeared one other time, when she possessed Sam in BUABS. It’s still far less than the others, but it was Meg in Sam.
You beat me to this comment. I also took it to mean longest recurring character dating back to her first appearance in Scarecrow; rather than the number of episodes. She is actually the only recurring character (besides S&D) that dates back to season 1, now that Bobby has gone ๐
The fact that she is still around says a lot about her character and strength of will to survive. I’m looking forward to seeing her again. But, even though she is fighting against Crowley, I’m always waiting for her to double-cross the boys. It didn’t happen in season 7, but I still don’t trust her ๐
Not a bad episode at all! I am pleased. It wasn’t a “blow me away with its awesomeness” type episode, but it was solid, interesting, had a nice flow, good brotherliness, cute kid, cute guys…. ๐ I mean, S&D = hot goes without saying, but Prometheus? Wasn’t HE yummy?
My thoughts are really similar to KG_SPN’s; I liked the brother scenes, Dean in a bathrobe, snarky Dean lines that were actually funny instead of just snarky, smart!Sam (good to see ya) and smart!Dean (boy, after last week, it’s REALLY good to see YOU). I liked the fight scenes and special effects too. It didn’t bother me that the boys left the ‘dead’ body in the morgue to go outside to talk, I mean, they could still see him through the window, and I can understand them wanting to get away from the morgue smells (eww!). I also loved the shot through the window of Prometheus sitting up through the glass while the boys talked. I could see it coming from a mile off, but I still loved it as well as S&D’s reaction when they realized that their dead guy had gotten up and walked off.
I loved that the sheriff was a ‘believer;’ nice change from how they usually have things go for the boys and authority figures. And even though I was initially dreading it, not a bad take on the “Sam’s hiding things again” trope. He isn’t really deliberately hiding it from Dean so much as he seems scared shitless, and is beginning to doubt himself but doesn’t want to make a fuss because he was so insistent about taking on the remainder of the trials after completing the first one. I thought it was very Samlike to try and talk about it without talking about it, but Dean got it anyway. And I really loved to see Dean’s genuine concern and his fear for Sam instead of the bluster of last weeks episode. I didn’t get ‘concern’ from Dean last week so much as ‘control’. This time it really was nice and warm and fuzzy and not angry; we’ve seen a lot of angry!Dean this season, so this was a nice change. Dean seemed much more like woolly, squishy Dean, what with him comforting the girlfriend (what’s her name?) at the end. Maybe that was a little OOC, but I liked it because it looked a little tentative on Dean’s part, but he knows what it’s like to watch a loved one burn so he went ahead and provided the comfort anyway. Sad to see Prometheus go.. there goes another awesome guest character. ๐ฅ
I liked that Dean was proud of the MoL legacy and was happy to see him not only using the library but also being the one to pin down the pertinent info. I want to see Dean invested in the bunker as not just something for Sam to connect to; it’s BOTH brother’s legacy, not just Sam’s.
There were a few things that didn’t quite work though. I agree that taking on Zeus in such a seemingly blasรยฉ manner was kind of hard to swallow. Maybe if it has been a lesser god (as someone else suggested) or there had been a comment about how all the older gods don’t have the power that they used to… something, because, I mean it’s ZEUS for crying out loud! Maybe if Prometheus had remembered who he was and was able to tap into his godliness or something it might have balanced out the risk they were taking…. that was the weak part of the story for me. Oh, and not making your plans clear to ALL parties involved. And I also was surprised that they took basically complete strangers to the bat cave. So aside from those nit picks, the good far outweighs the not so good for an enjoyable week.
[quote]And even though I was initially dreading it, not a bad take on the “Sam’s hiding things again” trope. He isn’t really deliberately hiding it from Dean so much as he seems scared shitless, and is beginning to doubt himself but doesn’t want to make a fuss because he was so insistent about taking on the remainder of the trials after completing the first one. [/quote]
See, I thought this was very clear in the last episode as well, which is why I was never upset w/Sam not saying anything. I think they have played both boys’ feelings very realistically though some may disagree.
At the end of the hellhound episode, Dean did extend his trust when he gave Sam the spell. I believe Sam’s speech moved and inspired him. After reciting the spell, Sam fell out, a light shot up his arm, and then he just repeats he can do this as if he’s trying to reassure himself. I thought Jared did a good job of looking both scared in that instant as well as determined. Dean saw it too IMO. I think that’s what caused Dean to falter a bit, which led to him telling Sam he could gank a hellhound and take over the trials in MBFWB. I know many thought Dean’s feelings made no sense given the previous episode, but I always thought Dean’s began to doubt his decision to allow Sam to do the trials [i]after[/i] Sam fell out from reciting it. So, they have a discussion about trust, and at the end, Dean says he trusts Sam and basically tells Sam he’s not going to try to usurp the trials anymore. Dean is 100% behind Sam, which makes Sam happy. Unfortunately, that’s when Sam coughs up the blood. I thought Jared put on a very scared face in that moment. I agree that he didn’t want to turn to Dean and say something after he insisted he would be fine and could handle the trials. It all made sense to me.
[quote] And I really loved to see Dean’s genuine concern and his fear for Sam . . .[/quote]
What I loved about the episode was that Dean wasn’t angry w/Sam for lying to him. I loved that he understood why Sam wasn’t saying anything. I know many were saying Dean was going to get angry b/c Sam was lying again, so I was happy to see something different. I was happy to see Dean realize that Sam is not intentionally trying to hurt him. Dean recognizes that Sam is trying his best to handle his issues on his own w/o worrying his brother, and he just wants his brother to be okay. I loved that the brothers are more in tune w/each other than they’ve been in a few years it seems.
[quote] What I loved about the episode was that Dean wasn’t angry w/Sam for lying to him. I loved that he understood why Sam wasn’t saying anything. I know many were saying Dean was going to get angry b/c Sam was lying again, so I was happy to see something different. I was happy to see Dean realize that Sam is not intentionally trying to hurt him. Dean recognizes that Sam is trying his best to handle his issues on his own w/o worrying his brother, and he just wants his brother to be okay. I loved that the brothers are more in tune w/each other than they’ve been in a few years it seems.[/quote]
Agreed!
Great analysis, lala2. E, you mentioned a lot of the things I really liked but missed.
[quote][quote]And even though I was initially dreading it, not a bad take on the “Sam’s hiding things again” trope. He isn’t really deliberately hiding it from Dean so much as he seems scared shitless, and is beginning to doubt himself but doesn’t want to make a fuss because he was so insistent about taking on the remainder of the trials after completing the first one. [/quote]
See, I thought this was very clear in the last episode as well, which is why I was never upset w/Sam not saying anything. I think they have played both boys’ feelings very realistically though some may disagree.
At the end of the hellhound episode, Dean did extend his trust when he gave Sam the spell. I believe Sam’s speech moved and inspired him. After reciting the spell, Sam fell out, a light shot up his arm, and then he just repeats he can do this as if he’s trying to reassure himself. I thought Jared did a good job of looking both scared in that instant as well as determined. Dean saw it too IMO. I think that’s what caused Dean to falter a bit, which led to him telling Sam he could gank a hellhound and take over the trials in MBFWB. I know many thought Dean’s feelings made no sense given the previous episode, but I always thought Dean’s began to doubt his decision to allow Sam to do the trials [i]after[/i] Sam fell out from reciting it. So, they have a discussion about trust, and at the end, Dean says he trusts Sam and basically tells Sam he’s not going to try to usurp the trials anymore. Dean is 100% behind Sam, which makes Sam happy. Unfortunately, that’s when Sam coughs up the blood. I thought Jared put on a very scared face in that moment. I agree that he didn’t want to turn to Dean and say something after he insisted he would be fine and could handle the trials. It all made sense to me.
[quote] And I really loved to see Dean’s genuine concern and his fear for Sam . . .[/quote]
What I loved about the episode was that Dean wasn’t angry w/Sam for lying to him. I loved that he understood why Sam wasn’t saying anything. I know many were saying Dean was going to get angry b/c Sam was lying again, so I was happy to see something different. I was happy to see Dean realize that Sam is not intentionally trying to hurt him. Dean recognizes that Sam is trying his best to handle his issues on his own w/o worrying his brother, and he just wants his brother to be okay. I loved that the brothers are more in tune w/each other than they’ve been in a few years it seems.[/quote]
i totally agree. ๐
Caught only the end of the episode where Dean was praying to Cas. Why would he do that since Cas is the one who has continually hurt Sam? In season 4 he was part of the reason for the wedge between the brothers and he had a direct role in starting the apocalypse. He broke Sam’s wall and caused him tremendous amounts of pain. So why would Dean think he would help Sam? He would be the last person I would have asked for help for Sam given his track record. Also, given how Dean holds grudges why has he seemed to have forgiven Cas for everything he’s done but won’t forgive his brother for being soulless which again was Cas’s fault?
So Cas gets a hand-wave for everything he’s done and Sam gets dumped on? Doesn’t sit well for me.
Well, to be fair, Cas HAS helped Sam…. he ‘healed’ him of his crazy in season 7. I know that a lot of people didn’t like this resolution (I myself wasn’t thrilled with how easy it was) but the point is, Cas healed Sam. It’s logical for Dean to assume at this point that Cas can watch out for Sam or heal him if he needs it; Cas has healing powers after all. But I agree with njspnfan above, I’ll bet Cas won’t be able to heal Sam when it comes to the side affects of these trials. He’s not suffering from a normal illness or a broken wall or anything like that, its part of a binding contract and comes with the trails. My thought is, no illness no trials. I’ll bet Cas won’t be able to do anything… and Dean won’t be happy.
This season Dean suspects Cas is being controlled in some way by persons unknown and that he may have murdered Samandriel because of that control. Sam and Dean warded a room against Cas to talk about their suspicions. That seems pretty relevant to putting Sam in Cas’s hands.
Gerry,
I think you’re jumping the gun here storywise. Dean knows something is off with Cas, but we have not seen or heard him speculate he is being controlled. Cas said he killed Samandriel because he was a threat. We the viewer know about Naomi pulling the strings, but the boys only know something again is up with Cas, and now he’s gone missing for several weeks. And Dean asked Cas to look out for his little brother, he is not relying on Cas to fully take Sam under his wing so to speak.
In “Torn and Frayed” the boys ward Rufus’ cabin against Cas so they can discuss their suspicions about Cas in light of him killing Samandriel.
SAM spray-paints the Enochian angel-warding symbol on the door.
SAM
Okay. That should do it. Cas can’t see or hear us now.
DEAN
Okay, what the hell?
SAM
I know.
DEAN
I told you something was off with him since he got back from Purgatory.
SAM
So, what, you think someone’s messing with him or something?
DEAN
Who?
SAM
Angels?
DEAN
Why would the angels have him kill another angel?
The boys specifically discuss Cas being made to kill Samandriel and they don’t want Cas to over hear their suspicions. They suspect Cas is being messed with more than they suspect a deliberate betrayal, but the point is they can’t trust him either way. So Dean praying to Cas for help with Sam is a very odd choice, while they still don’t know what is up with him.
Maybe, but Dean knows that Cas, in the end, is a good person/angel, and no matter what is happening to him, he would do anything he could to help them.
Yes, but Dean still knows that Cas possesses the ABILITY to save Sam and has done so before, while Dean knows he might be powerless to help. So, suspicious or no, I still think that Dean’s asking makes sense.
But the point is Dean cannot trust that Cas, for reasons as yet unknown, may not kill Sam instead. It’s not that Cas is powerless, it’s that he is either being controlled or he’s up to no good and lying about it. He set off to rescue Samandriel and ended up killing him in murky circumstances Dean finds very suspicious.
He and Sam actively warded Rufus’s cabin before talking about Cas. Why would he now actively invite Cas in when nothing has changed about Dean’s suspicions? Rather than lifting a burden from Dean’s shoulders, Cas introduces more complications. As far as Dean knows, he may have to rescue Cas from some terrible power and Cas himself is dangerous to Sam and Dean if he’s being controlled.. It seems to me story logic would not suggest Cas represents safety to Dean right now when Cas’s “rescue” of Samandriel ended in Cas possibly murdering him.
Gerry, I can see your point, but Dean calling Cas doesn’t bother me, even though maybe it should. I just figured he is starting to feel a little desperate. And despite what he has done, Cas is the person he closest to after Sam-now that Bobby is gone. Like he needed to feel like he’s not alone in getting Sam through the trials.
For me, the only way I can accept Dean feeling calling Cas is a way to lift some of his burden is to forget the scene where the boys warded the cabin against Cas to discuss their suspicions. Otherwise, it makes no little sense he would want Sam in Castiel’s hands right now–because he has a strong suspicion it wouldn’t be Castiel’s hands, not really, and it sure didn’t help Samandriel to have Cas “rescue” him.
I’m so tired of the writing this year where the writers create situations they then ignore in later scenes where those situations are relevant. For me, the prayer was powerful solely because Jensen Ackles infused it with everything he had, not the writing. Dan Loflin owes him big time.
Again I see your point. And maybe it will bother more with frequent rewatches. But another take on is that maybe he is hoping Cas would respond if Dean is worried about Sam, since he wasn’t responding otherwise. But it probably won’t help since this is clearly a big issue for you. I had similar issues with them giving up so easy against the witches in Shut Up Dr Phil in the midst of the whole Amy debacle-that episode is still hard for me to watch.
Oh my yes! I have to kill Amy because she was killing to save her son, but let’s not try too hard with the witches who have killed people, while we were in town because it’s too hard to try again? Or really because if one of the witches is male they live.
I guess I am not seeing why you find it so hard to believe that Dean would ask Cas for help. I understand that the boys believe that Cas could be compromised and they are certainly suspicious of what is going on with him. But this is Sam we are talking about here. Dean has shown time and time again that he is willing to risk anything with anyone when it comes to Sam. This is a man whose been willing to call on God, deal with demons and with the devil himself, a man who sold his soul for his brother; none of whom Dean trusts, just for the sake of saving Sam. Asking Cas, whom he has a history with and whom he knows has the power to help makes sense to me even though he is suspicious of what is going on with him. In that last scene Dean even says something along the lines of “for everything we’ve been through….” which basically amounts to “you owe me” so I don’t find it that far of a stretch for Dean to ask.
Perfectly said E!
But the issue I have is nothing to do with Cas owing anything–I have no doubt at all Dean would call on Cas for help in ordinary circumstances, even with the past issues between Sam and Cas. I believe Dean believes Cas truly repents.
The issue is: is Cas a safe person to ask for help at this particular point in time? The very last scene involving Cas, Dean and Sam so little trusted what was up with their friend, they wouldn’t even talk about it without warding the cabin against him. They were horrified at the killing of Samandriel and sure something about it was very off. They wondered if Cas was being controlled and made to kill Samandriel.
I don’t see how to draw an emotional line from there to the prayer–yet there has been no development since then. Why would Dean not worry whoever is controlling Cas would hurt Sam? Why would he not worry that not only would calling Cas not alleviate any pressure about Sam, it would add pressure about Castiel?
I don’t see how those two scenes flow from one to the other.
Past times Dean has dealt with characters he doesn’t trust, he knows very well he doesn’t trust them and goes in with a plan. He doesn’t call on them for help because he thinks their presence will make him feel less alone and helpless. In normal circumstances, I believe he would call on Cas for this kind of help–just not when he thinks Cas is being controlled by an unknown force that can make him kill.
I also found it very strange when looked at in that context but I just assumed Dean had weighed the risk of contacting Cas against the potential benefit for Sam during the trials. Since he prayed to Cas I have to assume he judge the benefit as outweighing the risk. I don’t necessarily agree but it made a nice piece of TV and reminded us that Cas is still in the mix. Also, I imagined the thorough angel-proofing of the cabin was because they were speculating and didn’t want Cas to be aware of it in case they were right, not that it meant they would avoid direct contact with him in future. They want to control what Cas knows about what they know about him, rather than go into complete hiding. I think, maybe!! ๐
Arad, I agree that the angel proofing was to make sure Cas didn’t know they suspected him of anything, not a sign they would not contact him at all–we know they have tried to contact him since he disappeared.
But contacting him to see if they can get a bead on what’s up with him in my mind is a very different thing to contacting him to put Sam in his hands. One keeps the trust issue in mind; one ignores it. I was already thinking it would be peculiar if the boys shared everything about the bunker and MOL freely with Cas at this point, until they know what’s what. But risking Sam’s safety . . . I think all Dean’s intuition would be screaming “no”–his intuition that something is not right with Cas has been pinging since Cas got out of Purgatory.
Calling Cas for help after they warded the cabin to keep him from hearing their conversation makes little to no sense to me. I mean, I see that they wanted to let viewers know that Cas was coming back soon and remind us that he’s still out there, but Dean saw him kill Samandriel and thinks something is off. If season 6 and 7 had never happened, Dean could think that Cas couldn’t go too far off the rails. But Dean has seen that Cas can make big destructive mistakes, so he’s not infallible.
The big problem for me is that this means the writers aren’t keeping continuity within this season, let alone across the entire series. That worries me.
I can accept that Cas can find the boys while they are driving down the road, even though they both should still have the Enochian symbols that keep any angel from finding them still on their ribs. I GET that those symbols were a way to hand wave why the angels didn’t just find Sam and Dean in season five and pressure them to say yes. I GET that they are no longer useful to the story and in fact are a hindrance, so they are being ignored. But the last time Dean and Sam saw Cas, they agreed that something was wrong. NOW Dean decides, oh well, let’s call the angel that may have something wrong with him, the same one who broke Sam’s mind the last time he had something wrong with him. It’s not even about forgiveness, it’s about trusting someone they didn’t trust the last time they saw him.
My take on that scene was that they had a little WTH moment but did not immediately jump to the conclusion that Cas was untrustworthy. I sort of liken it to someone taking a private concern into another room to discuss it out of earshot. They have a legitimate reason to distrust angels in general, thus the extra precaution. They have no idea who might be involved or in control but Cas hasn’t been shown as untrustworthy yet (in this season!), or done anything Dean to think he would harm Sam.
Which is fine, except he HAS harmed Sam in the past and he did it before he was possessed by the Leviathans. To me it would be as if I had been married to someone who abused my kids when he drank. He goes through counseling, and stops drinking and has apologized and seems to have his life together. I still wouldn’t leave my kids with him unsupervised. No matter how much he has tried to change I could never trust him completely again. And this would be especially true if I saw him acting “off” the way he did while drinking in some way.
I have stated in the past that I don’t personally feel that Cas has done enough to repent and be forgiven, but the writers have decided that he has and that’s the way it is. Dean still should act like a thinking human being who cares about his brother’s safety. He was concerned enough about Cas to talk to Sam about it. He knows Cas can be and has been dangerous. He has seen him kill ANOTHER angel the same day he talked about saving Samandriel because he had killed so many angels that this would help him atone. All this should give Dean pause about entrusting Sam’s well being to Castiel. It should really give him pause to call Castiel from A SECRET BUNKER, that is supposed to be shielded from all supernatural beings. Dean could at least have taken a drive to the local McDonald’s and made the call there. Nothing like a neon sign saying MOL bunker here, get your secrets.
I understand Percy, I do. I just tend to fall in with those who feel that Cas has done everything in his power to try to repent and make amends for his sins. That doesn’t erase them, I agree. But they have decided to trust him again again. They feel and I feel that Cas is genuinely remorseful. I think they are showing caution though, and they should. They are not jumping to conclusions yet. When it comes to Sam though, Dean tends to throw caution to the wind in his worry for his brother. Hasn’t always resulted in good decisions! Agree to diagree?
Agree to disagree is fine.
I think Cas killing Samandriel in suspicious circumstances would lead Dean to question putting a vulnerable Sam in Cas’s hands. To me, considering whether Cas is being controlled by someone takes Cas out of “safe” territory.
I don’t think the boys were warding the cabin against angels in general. Sam specifically says to Dean that now Cas can’t see or hear them. They are concerned about him in particular. Dean’s been concerned about something being off with Cas since Cas got out of Purgatory with no explanation. Killing Samandriel isn’t the first suspicious thing making Dean’s intuition ping.
And if his intuition is pinging that hard about Cas, I don’t understand why the thought of putting Sam under his care would feel good.
I don’t completely disagree, I just think that, as I said above, that Dean throws all caution out the window when it comes to his brothers welfare. Having his intuition pinging is not the same as thinking Cas is betraying them again. Maybe their experiences in Purgatory has earned Cas the benefit of the doubt. I have no doubt that he and Sam will be scrutinizing Cas very very closely.
It just shows that Dean was desperate and very worried about Sam.
Crossroads demon’s aren’t safe people to ask either, but that didn’t stop Dean from making his deal. Asking Cas, even a potentially compromised one is far safer than dealing with Death, Crowley, Angles or all the other demons and we’ve seen Dean do all these things multiple times. Asking Cas seems almost tame by comparison.
The prayer scene with Cas was very different in nature from Dean dealing with the Crossroads demon. Dean knew dealing with the demon was dangerous and morally wrong and he risked himself, not Sam. The prayer scene intimated Cas felt like support and relief to him. And I should say again that in regular circumstances, that would feel right to me, too.
But right now, Dean cannot assess how dangerous asking Cas for help is, so how can he know whether it’s safer than asking angels gone bad or Crowley? He may BE asking angels gone bad or Crowley, since Cas doesn’t seem to be in control of some of his actions. Until Dean knows who’s behind Cas killing Samandriel, he’s dealing with the unknown and not a friendly one.
[quote]I think you’re jumping the gun here storywise. Dean knows something is off with Cas, but we have not seen or heard him speculate he is being controlled. Cas said he killed Samandriel because he was a threat. We the viewer know about Naomi pulling the strings, but the boys only know something again is up with Cas, and now he’s gone missing for several weeks. And Dean asked Cas to look out for his little brother, he is not relying on Cas to fully take Sam under his wing so to speak.[/quote]
Yes, Nate, thank you.
In “Torn and Frayed,” Sam and Dean ward Rufus’ cabin against Cas in order to discuss their suspicions he’s being controlled and that’s why he killed Samandriel. They don’t know about Naomi yet, but they don’t trust what happened around Samandriel’s death or Cas getting out of Purgatory and their best guess is someone is messing with Castiel.
Gerry–thanks for the refresher on that, I do remember it now. I need to start taking my ginko biloba ๐
Hi Jo1027,
In Season 4 Cas was doing what was better for the cause, but did come around to “Team Winchester/Free Will.” He broke the wall in Season 6, but since then has been focused on making up for all his bad deeds. He did take over Sam’s Hell visions, that speaks volumes. Cas does not want to hurt Sam. Dean forgiving Cas has been in progress since Season 7. And not to mention all the Purgatory action, it’s clear Dean and Cas are on good terms. There is no hand waving going on, this is ongoing for the past 2 years.
Dean was “praying” but also really needed a friend to talk to. He knows Sam is hurting (love that Dean is aware and understands Sam’s wanting to protect Dean) and wants to know where the heck Cas is.
On the comment Dean won’t forgive Sam for being soulless, I don’t recall that being the case? Sam had no control over being soulless, and Cas bringing Sam back, did not intend to bring him back sans soul.
I fully beleive Castiel purposely brought Sam from Hell without his soul and purposely wile in league with Crowly used Souless Sam to captuer Alpha Monsters
Cas NEVER said.
When Sam point blank asked Cas is he had brought him back souless Cas said “How can you think that?” Classic evasion of the truth wiithout telling the lie. Answer a question with a question AN turning it back on the questioner in a way to make them feel bad for asking.
[quote]I fully beleive Castiel purposely brought Sam from Hell without his soul and purposely wile in league with Crowly used Souless Sam to captuer Alpha Monsters
Cas NEVER said.
When Sam point blank asked Cas is he had brought him back souless Cas said “How can you think that?” Classic evasion of the truth wiithout telling the lie. Answer a question with a question AN turning it back on the questioner in a way to make them feel bad for asking.[/quote]
Amy – this was addressed in 6.20 The Man Who Would Be King. Cas indicated he went back to hell to raise Sam from perdition but that it was shear hubris/pride (something along those lines) that he missed the fact that he didn’t raise all of Sam. I don’t think Cas would have intentionally done that to Sam at that point; this was at a time right after S5, way before he broke the wall in Sam’s head at the end of S6 and before he made the deal with Crowley. Also keep in mind that Cas became very protective of Sam in S5.
I think Cas was genuinely horrified that Sam would think that. I don’t think it was on purpose.
It is possible that he did the rescuing in league with Crowley (because he shouldn’t have been strong enough to do it on his own) and Crowley interfered and split Sam from his soul for the reasons you say. But personally I am certain Cas didn’t.
I know some dislike Castiel, but why would he have intentionally raised Sam w/o his soul at that point in the show?!?!?
It was right after SS. Castiel was feeling good and wanted to do something for Dean. That’s why he went to Hell and grabbed Sam. He said he was shocked and surprised when Sam just left and didn’t reach out to Dean. I think he said he should have known something was wrong w/Sam at that point but he just flitted away.
I hate that Castiel broke Sam’s Wall but I could not say he intentionally returned Sam w/o a soul.
[quote]I know some dislike Castiel, but why would he have intentionally raised Sam w/o his soul at that point in the show?!?!?
It was right after SS. Castiel was feeling good and wanted to do something for Dean. That’s why he went to Hell and grabbed Sam. He said he was shocked and surprised when Sam just left and didn’t reach out to Dean. I think he said he should have known something was wrong w/Sam at that point but he just flitted away.
I hate that Castiel broke Sam’s Wall but I could not say he intentionally returned Sam w/o a soul.[/quote]
Possibly, I didn’t pay as much attention to the details during S6 as I could have but I came away from that season thinking that Castiel raised Sam from Hell without a soul on purpose to help fulfil Castiel’s plans including a deal with Crowley. In fact, I sort of preferred my understanding of the plot that way because it made more sense to me in explaining some elements of Soulless!Sam and his (and the Campbell’s) behaviour, as well as some of Crowley and Cas’ behaviour later in the season.
[b]Ciar[/b], he really didn’t.
Castiel was watching Dean and thought Dean looked unhappy. He then said he knew how to make Dean happier. He may have also said that Sam deserved a better fate than the one he got . . . I can’t quite remember the exact words.
Cas decided to go to Lucifer’s Cage to retrieve Sam. He primarily did this for Dean IIRC. He mentions that he should have known he couldn’t do it (i.e., rescue Sam) all by himself or that he shouldn’t have been so arrogant to think he could rescue Sam but he did it anyway.
He dropped Sam off in front of Lisa’s house. Cas fully expected Sam to go up to Dean and for the brothers to be reunited, but that’s not what happened. He was surprised when Sam just walked away. He mentions that he should have known something was wrong then, but he chose to ignore the oddness of Sam’s behavior and went away.
I actually liked that episode quite a bit and thought it was very effective at explaining Castiel and giving him some POV. It’s why I wish they had done a similar episode for Sam in S4 or heck, in the beginning of this season.
lala2, funny you mention that, TNT today ran “Swan Song.” That episode was a high point for the series, the only problem is it came too late in the Season. It beautifully filled in parts of Season 6 we were not as clear as the season went on, and also was a good companion to “Swan Song.” If you remember at end of Swan Song, the light above Sam flickered, as it did when Angels were around. Going into Season 6 I thought a possibility was Sam was somehow an Angel because of the flicker, but I was glad to see it explained it was really Cas having just dropped Sam off.
Yes, I remember the light flickering. My friend and I actually thought Sam had become a “demon.” I know it doesn’t make sense, but it’s what we were thinking. Hahaha ๐
[quote]He dropped Sam off in front of Lisa’s house.[/quote]
Actually that is not correct. Sam told Dean that he woke up in the field alone and it was raining. Cas did not take Sam to Dean. We were left to assume that Sam came looking for Dean at Lisa’s hoping he did what he promised Sam he would do.
Trucklady, you are correct. Sam did wake up in the field. I do remember Castiel watched Sam outside Dean’s house and was surprised when Sam just walked away. Plus, Sam did say he called for Castiel but he never answered.
In any event, my main point is Cas did not intentionally raise Sam soulless. I think the episode makes that very clear. He was actually trying to do something nice for Dean so it really doesn’t make sense that he would bring Sam back without a soul on purpose.
[quote]On the comment Dean won’t forgive Sam for being soulless, I don’t recall that being the case?[/quote]
In that penny episode, Dean mentions being upset w/Sam for not telling him (Dean) that he (Sam) was soulless. It was very strange and really makes no sense, but clearly, deep down . . . possibly way deep down . . . Dean resents Sam for being soulless.
Again, it makes no sense given that Sam had no control over being soulless, but it is clearly still upsetting to Dean.
lala2,
Got it now. I agree Dean was upset Sam didn’t tell Dean he was soulless, but Sam did not really know that until Cas verified it. Sam knew he was not sleeping, etc. etc., but remember he had no emotional connection to Dean (or anyone), so I don’t agree Dean is still angry over that. It was not “Sammy” keeping a secret.
[quote] . . . I don’t agree Dean is still angry over that. It was not “Sammy” keeping a secret.[/quote]
I would then ask why it was even mentioned in the penny episode during Dean’s rant?
My honest opinion is that that whole rant was done for the sole purpose of having conflict btw the brothers. IIRC, Dean doesn’t mention how Sam never looked for him or just accepted his death and got a GF. That would have been an understandable source of anger, but he mentions Sam’s numerous lies in S4 and the soulless thing over which Sam had NO control.
I think we’re supposed to believe Dean does blame Sam for being soulless and is upset w/him for being that way. Does he still feel that way? Who knows? That’s one of Carver’s dropped plots it seems!
I am really stating to think that we are supposed to take that incident as: well the soulless thing is clearly unreasonable so we should take it that Dean didn’t mean any of the rest of it either, it was just the spectre using his memories and turning them to blame.
Dean says he doesn’t remember what he said and Sam still has some residual guilt about some of it (which he really shouldn’t at this stage – specifically the soullessness – and the line about everything over the years being to deceive Dean was just ….) so he reacted as if he believed Dean meant all of it.
I really dislike that whole episode … they could have left it just with the stuff that Dean has a reason to be angry about (ie this season’s problems) and then there would be some chance of fixing it. But, ancient history! *sigh*
(heh, I just reread your post lala and I realize my last 2 paragraphs are making exactly the same points as you – so apologies for the repetition)
lala, that is why the whole spectre things makes me crazy. All this crap was thrown in to create conflict. Now and forever it will keep being brought up. I agree lala, that what should have been brought up was what Dean was really angry about at the time. Not that some of the stuff wasn’t underlying but why go there? I still have a problem with SS getting thrown in the mix when Dean knows full well that Sam wasn’t in any way responsible for that! THAT to me was a writers mistake and should have been caught.
[b]Eilf [/b] & [b]Leah [/b] – I agree w/you both! The penny episode really didn’t make much sense.
Instead of blaming Sam for being soulless (which makes ZERO sense), Dean should have been ranting and raving about Sam not investigating his disappearance and not looking for him. But they (the writers) seemed really eager to have Dean list all Sam’s mistakes, make it crystal clear that Dean has major issues w/Sam, and make it clear that Dean sees Benny as a better brother to him than Sam has EVER been in Sam’s ENTIRE life.
They didn’t hold back w/that one! I got a S&V feeling from it. That’s why it’s so frustrating that it all seemed for naught. Dean’s rant was never really addressed. Does he still hold these resentments? Will they surface some time in S9 or S10? What is at the root of Dean’s anger/resentment of Sam?
I actually don’t have a problem w/the substance of Dean’s rant (soulless part aside). My main problem is there seems to have been no point to the rant. I kept hearing that the boys were going to have this real honest talk, and I assumed (bad move on my part) that any talk would address the issues raised in the penny episode but it didn’t.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the speeches in the hellhound episode, but it wasn’t what I was expecting. We, or rather I’m just left w/more unresolved angst and conflict. I’m not sure what to make of what we saw.
I liked the Dean’s rant at the time, because even though I didn’t think it was in anyway fair to Sam (well except not looking for Dean), but I thought it was like rebreaking a bone that didn’t set correctly the first time. I can understand Dean’s resentments, even if they are not really fair, I thought maybe this was a way to deal with unresolved issues. But they really haven’t done anything with it so far, except last week with Sam saying Dean doesn’t trust anyone but himself. But I hope that isn’t the only payoff for that episode.
Yes that was how I felt at the time too, but now, so many weeks later, it seems like it was just unnecessary and unpleasant.
Yes exactly.
I didn’t like it the first time, either… But I had hoped it would lead somewhere.
So many things have been unsatisfactorily resolved this season, and I don’t have any hope they’ll get back to all of them with only 7 episodes left to go.
Yup! I can’t say I ever agreed w/the rant b/c it was particularly harsh to me. Dean basically said Sam had been deceiving him since they hooked back up in Season 1! And the whole part about Benny being a better brother to him than Sam has ever been in his whole life was way OTT.
That said, I did believe those issues would eventually get addressed but they basically faded away. Like [b]Kelly [/b] said, we got a brief acknowledgment in last week’s episode when Sam said Dean only trusted himself but that appears to be all we’re going to get.
As you said, [b]Eilf[/b], I can’t help but consider the commetns unnecessary, OTT, and unpleasant.
When, where, what scene did Dean, totally sober, blame Sam for coming back from Hell without a soul? Did I miss something? Dean thinks Sam CHOSE to come back without a soul? Is that what these comments are about? I really don’t recall that happening. If it did, Dean is out of his mind crazy……
It was in Southern Comfort. He didn’t actually say he blamed him for being soulless, but he blamed him for things he did while he was soulless, which amounts to the same thing.
He WAS out of his mind crazy, Nate. It was the spectre episode when Dean said all that….
But they brought it up as if they wanted to deal with all the past, and then.. nothing… no discussion, no resolution. We’re just wondering what was the point.
Nate, in the episode w/the evil penny/Spectre, we get a chance to hear some of Dean’s old, or rather buried, resentments. One of those resentments is Sam returning soulless. I don’t remember the wording of the rant but he does say Sam came back soulless and didn’t tell him. It sounded – to me – as if Dean actually blamed Sam for being soulless in the first place.
How I understood the episode was that the Spectre/penny caused old hurts/resentments to rise to the surface. I’m someone who can keep a grudge so it was never unbelievable to me that someone might still resent someone else for something that happened years ago (i.e., the bad call at that baseball game, the husband dancing w/some other girl at a HS dance).
So, I saw Dean’s rant as him giving voice to actual resentments he may have toward Sam. They may be buried deep in his subconscious, but on some level, he has issues w/Sam for the reasons he stated. He feels the things he said on some level and in some way.
That was my take on the episode.
My honest opinion is the rant was set up to remind viewers that Sam is not the favored brother, nor should he be. Dean laid out every single thing that Sam has done wrong, just so we wouldn’t get the idea that we are supposed to like or support Sam.
I don’t agree with that at all. Most of us love Sam as well. This was done purely to fan the conflict flames. And it worked for them and for us. As was the not looking and the no real explanation for it. As was all the stuff that was said and done between them in the months since. One could also support a case that we were not supposed to like or support Dean either.
Percy, if that was their goal, I think they failed miserably. Dean came off like an ass to me. His rant was OTT, and he said some pretty harsh stuff to Sam. The comment about Sam deceiving him ever since he got in the Impala back in S1 and about Benny being a better brother to him than Sam has EVER been were particularly cold.
I found Dean’s rant very similar to Sam’s cutting remarks in S&V. Both brothers came off like jerks to me in both instances.
I don’t think we were meant to agree w/Dean just like I don’t think we were meant to agree w/Sam in S&V.
[quote]I don’t think we were meant to agree w/Dean just like I don’t think we were meant to agree w/Sam in S&V.
[/quote]
Leah, I agree.
Are we supposed to take everything Sam says to Dean or vice-versa as the writers’ own propaganda?
Do we really believe that their opinion of us is so low that they would expect us not to independently evaluate Sam and Dean’s words?
Every time Sam or Dean makes a mistake – are we to believe that it is a merely a ploy by writers to make the character look bad?
Do we only read novels in which the main characters are good all the time and never say or do hurtful/wrong things?
…I’m pretty sure creative writing doesn’t work that way.
Bamboo24, I don’t think we were meant to take all these accusations to heart, but they were injurious to Sam because we had just spent several episodes with the knowledge that Sam didn’t look for Dean-now we are reminded of all Sam past transgressions on top of that. They even threw in a few that weren’t his fault. Now the intention of doing so may have been to make the whole thing seem irrational but I don’t think it had that effect because of its context within the season.
Now for me, Sam’s S&V rant had the opposite effect. I felt horrible for Dean. I felt it was one of the few times Sam was truly cruel, even if he was under the siren’s influence. Again because of the context of the season. Dean had just confessed and now it was being used against by someone he loved.
Both times Dean was the more sympathetic character IMO, even though this time is accusations against Sam were very unfair-well except not looking for him.
Kelly, he may have started out more sympathetically but you factor in the infamous rant and the text, and the better brother comments, Dean was looking pretty damn bad. I recall words like dick, douche bag, jerk. Even though I never doubted Dean’s love for his bro, it was getting hard to defend him as written. So in short both looked both sympathetic and like jerks at various moments early on IMO. AND after all that drama there was no logical progression of events that got us to this point. No heart to hearts (not that that is their style), a lot of what transpired wasn’t resolved just ignored. I’m happy that things are better. I don’t love it when they are mean to each other for weeks on end.You probably do, angst lover!! ๐
Now, Leah, I said I liked GOOD angst. ๐ I loved S5 because it was all earned, but if this season I just don’t know. Like I said I liked SC to begin with. But they haven’t done anything with it so it feels meaningless and contrived. If it had been the lead in to get to the root of their problems, I would have been a happy girl.
And I can see what you’re saying about Dean in that episode, but the episode ended with Sam’s only defense being “You had secrets. You had Benny.” Which is equivalent of calling someone a poop face, sure it’s an insult but it doesn’t even sting really. It was kinda pathetic. If there was a followup to the episode that would have been one thing but so far there hasn’t been and so Sam takes another hit IMO.
If Dean’s rant had been restricted to Sam not looking for him, which I don’t think he ever mentions during the rant, then he would have seemed more sympathetic to me. As it stands, je just went on and on about stuff over which Sam had no control or past hurts that were thought to be forgiven.
Having him basically say he’s never trusted Sam and believes a vampire he just met is a better brother than Sam has EVER been was way OTT in my opinion.
[quote]My honest opinion is the rant was set up to remind viewers that Sam is not the favored brother, nor should he be. Dean laid out every single thing that Sam has done wrong, just so we wouldn’t get the idea that we are supposed to like or support Sam.
[/quote]
That’s funny – I still like and support Sam, and a plethora of other fans do as well. I haven’t gotten that impression at all. So I suppose if that was their motive, then they sure did fail.
lala2, What is the penny episode? I am not sure what everyone is talking about. I want to be sure I understand before I respond.
Southern Comfort, Nate.
Thanks, [b]st50[/b]! For the life of me, I could not remember the actual title of the episode, and I was too lazy to look it up. Hahaha ๐
Transcript from Southern Comfort:
DEAN
Shut up! [to GARTH, who makes a move towards his belt for a weapon] Don’t! [to SAM] You never even wanted this life. Always blamed me for pulling you back into it.
SAM
That’s not true.
DEAN
Really? ‘Cause everything you’ve ever done since you climbed into my ride has been to deceive me.
SAM
What do you want me to say? That I’ve made mistakes? I’ve made mistakes, Dean.
GARTH
That’s not Dean, Sam.
DEAN
Shut up! Mistakes? Well, let’s go through some of Sammy’s greatest hits. Drinking demon blood, check. Being in cahoots with Ruby. Not telling me that you lost your soul. Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you’re doing all kinds of crazy. Those aren’t mistakes, Sam. Those are choices!
What Garth says here is important but the rest of it is so overwhelming that it might as well not have been said. I stick with my previous thought that most of it is so unreasonable as to say that NONE of it is truly how Dean feels. Just the spectre using his memories to make issues.
Actually the scene gets worse from there on – I REALLY don’t like this episode ๐ฅ
[quote]T
What Garth says here is important but the rest of it is so overwhelming that it might as well not have been said. I stick with my previous thought that most of it is so unreasonable as to say that NONE of it is truly how Dean feels. Just the spectre using his memories to make issues.[/quote]
Agreed, eilf.
The fact that they never bothered to clear the air and deal with ANY of the issues they brought up or manufactured this season leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Unlike in S&V, they had a witness. The writers could’ve had Garth tell Dean what he said, and then tell him to make it right with Sam.
[quote]most of it is so unreasonable as to say that NONE of it is truly how Dean feels. Just the spectre using his memories to make issues.[/quote]
I don’t think the resentments could be forced upon the person in the episode. All the other people had specific resentments against everyone they went after, however weak. What it seemed to do was amplify those resentments. So somewhere down deep Dean is still upset at Sam for what happened in the past, even the things that happened when he was soulless.
I DID like it, but now along with most of the first half of the season, I don’t know what to do with it. I’m not sure where it fits in with where we are at now. And I just don’t know what they were doing with Sam. So I can’t really enjoy watching them right now or perhaps ever if the big problems aren’t resolved.
[quote] I don’t think the resentments could be forced upon the person in the episode. All the other people had specific resentments against everyone they went after, however weak. What it seemed to do was amplify those resentments. So somewhere down deep Dean is still upset at Sam for what happened in the past, even the things that happened when he was soulless.[/quote]
Exactly! Some people seem reluctant to accept this, but as you said, somewhere deep down in Dean’s subconscious, he resents Sam for the things he mentioned. He feels those things on some level.
I always felt Sam meant the things he said in S&V on some level, and I feel Dean meant the things he said in SC.
lala, I had a few discussions about this and one of the points I tried to make is that the spectre had to dig down pretty deep to bring up some of that (sometimes very petty) stuff. I always felt that Dean at one time or another had felt some of the things that he spewed during that scene. But I also thought that he had forgiven Sam for much of it and did not go around with that boiling just under the surface in his daily life. I had a hard time with the Dean doesn’t love Sam and has never forgiven Sam comments that were generated because of that rant. I know others disagree, that is ok with me.
[b]Leah[/b], I’m not sure what to make of Dean’s speech. Like you, I also thought Dean had forgiven Sam for his past choices in S4, and I never thought he actually held Sam’s time while soulless agaisnt him but this episode caused me to change my mind.
I honestly don’t know. I think that Dean on a very deep subconscious level has some issues w/Sam that he’s never addressed. It would have been good if Dean had addressed his problems w/Sam but Show didn’t seem to have a real point to Dean’s rant.
I definitely don’t think Dean doesn’t love Sam. He loves his brother very much!
In the quotes above from that episode, when Dean goes off, what is not 100% true about what he’s saying? In the heat of the moment, he is venting about the choices Sam made. Dean is at this point upset about Sam not looking for him and quiting hunting. It was ANOTHER choice to add to the list. When someone is angry they will say things in the heat of the moment, even bringing up things from the past that are water under the bridge.
Nate, the problem is that not only did he show that he was still holding things against Sam after Sam suffered 180 of horrendous torture (that should be enough punishment and redemption for anybody). But he showed he was also holding resentments against Sam for things that he had done while he was soulless, which he had zero control over. It was even really him, he was still being tortured. So Dean wasn’t 100% correct.
I agree with lala2, they were resentments that were buried deep within Dean, not something he dwells on. But my point was that, because the show presented with the very understandable resentment of Sam not looking for him and then gave Sam no real defense against any of Dean’s accusations, it had deleterious effect on Sam’s character.
[quote]In the quotes above from that episode, when Dean goes off, what is not 100% true about what he’s saying?[/quote]
[quote]Not telling me that you lost your soul. Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you’re doing all kinds of crazy.[/quote]
It’s not so much about being true or untrue. (ALthough, the first line “Not telling me you lost your soul” is in fact untrue. Sam did not hide the fact he was soulless or lie to Dean about it, he was not aware of the fact that his soul was missing until Cas did the painful, body cavity soul searching thing.) It’s more an issue of Dean being so grossly unfair in his continued resentments and blaming despite Sam having made great strides to atone, having so much time pass, and Dean’s having given lip service to forgiving Sam for these transgressions. If he had ranted about being left in purgatory because Sam didn’t look or leaving Kevin twisting in the wind, I would have at least understood the relevance and seen the point to Dean’s being so harsh. But to claim Sam was hiding his soullessness is absolutely and totally untrue, he was NOT hiding it. And to then further bring up what Sam did while soulless and condemn him with it is grossly unfair, especially knowing how horrible Sam felt about what he’d done when he found out about it in Unforgiven. Sam only lost his soul to begin with because of his sacrifice to save the world in season 5. His deeds with Samuel in season 6 were beyond his control and a byproduct of his sacrifice. It was pretty vicious of Dean to throw those events in Sam’s face Penny or no Penny.
Furthermore, the Ruby and demon blood issues; Sam only threw himself into Hell to begin with to atone for those exact “crimes.” So, even though Sam admitted his mistakes, apologized multiple times and then made the ultimate self-sacrifice to help fix the problems he caused, Dean is resentful? Sam’s sacrifice mean’s nothing to Dean STILL? If Dean had truly forgiven Sam for these issues, then the penny would not have worked to dredge up these old hurts, like with Garth. This means that down deep, Dean still feels these things to some extent. The spectre when it first saw Dean at the hospital even said to him “Oh, the spectre likes you” as though recognizing a good victim when he saw one. It could actually smell Dean’s unresolved issues on him.
I agree with Leah and Kelly, the focus of Dean’s rant seemed really off in this scene. If it had focused more on the issues that Dean had a right to feel some resentment about, like leaving him in purgatory, it would have come off better and made Dean seem like less of a grudge holder.
[quote] If Dean had truly forgiven Sam for these issues, then the penny would not have worked to dredge up these old hurts, like with Garth. This means that down deep, Dean still feels these things to some extent. [/quote]
Well. S**t. I hadn’t thought of it that way, E, but yes.. I guess that means Dean truly has to be feeling resentful for the issues he threw at Sam – on some level.
He hasn’t let go of any of it, regardless of his other pretty speeches about clean slates.
Only Garth knows how to truly forgive? Ridiculous. After all these guys have been through.
What were these writers thinking? And why hasn’t this been addressed again this season? What was the point?
What still irks me is that some of the examples were SOOO petty. The wife had to dredge up the almost forgotten memory of her husband taking someone else to the prom many years before. She had a problem with it at one time but had moved on and even married the guy. If the spectre hadn’t used that, it might have stayed a distant memory. Dean WAS mad at Sam for some of these things at one time but the idea that he still goes around resenting Sam for everything he has ever done is hard for me to swallow. When you have a fight with a family and make up, is there EVER a completely clean slate? People always remember things that hurt even if they have forgiven and moved on. I know these two have some lingering issues that may never be completely resolved, that is why their relationship is so complex. I don’t deny that Dean felt some of these things at one time but to give credence to the idea that Dean goes around resenting Sam constantly, wasn’t giving enough credit to the evil influence and too much to the idea that Dean is an unforgiving brother!!
[quote]I don’t deny that Dean felt some of these things at one time but to give credence to the idea that Dean goes around resenting Sam constantly, wasn’t giving enough credit to the evil influence and too much to the idea that Dean is an unforgiving brother!![/quote]
I agree, Leah.
What I really meant was….
I simply think it was totally unnecessary for the writers to go there, and then totally drop it. Again. Heck, we’re still discussing stuff from the Asylum episode when Sam was manipulated, and S&V, and….. Been there, done that.
It’s time for the writers to stop bringing up past grievances without some resolution.
Oh yes st50 we are in agreement. I wasn’t irked at you, just the whole spectre thing in general. Some chose to see the ugly way it was presented as how Dean really feels about Sam. It was pointless except to ramp up the conflict and yes, with no resolution.
๐ Thanks Leah.
I don’t often make my points clear, and I’m used to being misinterpreted. ๐
I just hope Carver gets around to “letting the boys mature” and resolves all this artificial conflict crap the season started with.
I agree, Leah and st50, it was the lack of resolution after bringing it up that really bothered me.
That and the whole “I don’t hunt and I didn’t look for Dean or Kevin”/ “better brother” crap.
My real concern is they had Dean bring it up in order to remind us of all the bad things Sam did, in addition to not looking for Dean or Kevin in order to “surprise” us when Sam goes bad, yet again. Because Lord knows the show has never done THAT before.
I know I read that one of Kripke’s ideas was that Dean would end up having to kill Sam to save the world. My big fear is that Carver decided that that would be a great idea and so he is moving Sam back to evil and that his turning evil will be the price for closing the Gates of Hell. In this case he is giving Dean people/vampires to turn to once he is forced to kill Evil!Sam. If that is the way they are going, I will be most unhappy.
OMG, I hope you are wrong about that one. Would they really be that stupid? People would storm the studio!
They would definitely lose me as a fan. But I don’t think that can be what they are doing because even during the first part of the season they weren’t setting up Sam as evil- merely unsympathetic (and even that isn’t a consensus opinion). The first four seasons there was a well defined storyline that Sam might be on the path to evil. But the worst you can say about him right now is that he was a bad brother. I’ll admit on this show that is a horrible offense. But still wouldn’t be considered evil.
Me too ๐ I have decided that should things continue to get worse my end-of-series (part of) episode will be at the hug in Like a Virgin! That works for me…
Sam has never been presented as “evil” IMO. Even during S4, I would call him misguided and arrogant before I’d call him evil. I don’t consider SS to be “Sam” so Sam has never crossed into the “evil” category for me.
Oh I agree. I don’t think he ever crossed that line. But they did play we the idea for several years leading up to it.
Lala
Even at the worst moment when Sam put the nurse in the ‘boot’ (you call it trunk) of the car, I felt absolutely heartbroken for him. I never doubted that he was doing it for what he believed to be saving the world from the apocalypse. I have never felt he was evil either. I have always said that Dean grabs my attention and I find myself always looking at him during the eps, however it is Sam that gets under my skin every time. I think that has always been the intention of TPTB
I also felt bad for him, and that’s after I was ticked at him for strangling his brother in the prior episode! Like [b]Kelly[/b] says, they played w/the [i]idea[/i] of making Sam “evil,” but they never truly made him evil. He never went full on dark, which is probably good considering the lack of POV they give Sam.
Amen, st50 ๐
PS- I have NEVER had an issue with any post you have ever made. We, and a handful of other people here, think very much alike and that is why I love it here.
๐
Leah, I don’t think Dean is walking around in a conscious state resenting Sam for past mistakes, but I do think the things he mentioned still bug/trouble him.
The woman may have married the guy, but she still resents him for taking another girl to prom. It was not a conscious anger but she never got over it.
So, I don’t think on Dean’s mind he still resents Sam for the bad choices Sam made, but on a deeper, subconscious level, there is some resentment and anger there. I don’t know. It makes sense to me. As I said before, I can understand someone holding a grudge or not really forgiving someone for a perceived wrong. It doesn’t make Dean a bad guy, IMO, just human.
The part of the rant that never made sense to me was the soulless stuff. Sam did not choose to be soulless and even SS didn’t know he was soulless. It would be nice if they addressed Dean’s rant but it doesn’t look like they will.
lala, I just spent a long time writing a post that expressed my thoughts and accidently erased it all!! Not for the first time either. Anyway we are pretty close in our thinking. I think it is a matter of degree. I also think that there are still things that bother Dean (and Sam), but the spectre (and the ensuing murderous rant) made Dean look like he was furious and unforgiving with Sam for everything he had ever done. And that gets brought up in many comments. My point was that families have conflicts, wounds are created that may be forgiven but not forgotten. These are the things that the spectre latches onto and amplifies to a rage. Old wounds. About SS, just not a logical inclusion. And “not looking” not a logical exclusion.
My erased comment was brilliant however. ๐ ๐
[quote]My erased comment was brilliant however. ๐ :-)[/quote]
Those are always my best comments too!
Sorry, Leah! I hate when that happens!
I think we are pretty much in agreement. I honestly don’t Dean is consciously walking around angry and upset w/Sam. When he said he was giving everyone a clean slate, I believe he believed that. However, deep down, Dean has issues/problems w/Sam that he’s never really addressed or gotten over IMO.
I always took issue w/those who seemed to say Dean couldn’t have had those thoughts or that the Spectre made Dean think those thoughts. I really don’t believe that’s what happened. I never thought Dr. Ellicott or the Siren influenced Sam’s thoughts. I think in all those instances the supernatural creature exposed the brothers’ true thoughts. Some seemed to think the brothers couldn’t have those thoughts.
[quote]I always took issue w/those who seemed to say Dean couldn’t have had those thoughts or that the Spectre made Dean think those thoughts. I really don’t believe that’s what happened. I never thought Dr. Ellicott or the Siren influenced Sam’s thoughts. I think in all those instances the supernatural creature exposed the brothers’ true thoughts. Some seemed to think the brothers couldn’t have those thoughts.[/quote]agree
[quote][quote]In the quotes above from that episode, when Dean goes off, what is not 100% true about what he’s saying?[/quote]
[quote]Not telling me that you lost your soul. Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you’re doing all kinds of crazy.[/quote]
It’s not so much about being true or untrue. (ALthough, the first line “Not telling me you lost your soul” is in fact untrue. Sam did not hide the fact he was soulless or lie to Dean about it, he was not aware of the fact that his soul was missing until Cas did the painful, body cavity soul searching thing.) It’s more an issue of Dean being so grossly unfair in his continued resentments and blaming despite Sam having made great strides to atone, having so much time pass, and Dean’s having given lip service to forgiving Sam for these transgressions. If he had ranted about being left in purgatory because Sam didn’t look or leaving Kevin twisting in the wind, I would have at least understood the relevance and seen the point to Dean’s being so harsh. But to claim Sam was hiding his soullessness is absolutely and totally untrue, he was NOT hiding it. And to then further bring up what Sam did while soulless and condemn him with it is grossly unfair, especially knowing how horrible Sam felt about what he’d done when he found out about it in Unforgiven. Sam only lost his soul to begin with because of his sacrifice to save the world in season 5. His deeds with Samuel in season 6 were beyond his control and a byproduct of his sacrifice. It was pretty vicious of Dean to throw those events in Sam’s face Penny or no Penny.
Furthermore, the Ruby and demon blood issues; Sam only threw himself into Hell to begin with to atone for those exact “crimes.” So, even though Sam admitted his mistakes, apologized multiple times and then made the ultimate self-sacrifice to help fix the problems he caused, Dean is resentful? Sam’s sacrifice mean’s nothing to Dean STILL? If Dean had truly forgiven Sam for these issues, then the penny would not have worked to dredge up these old hurts, like with Garth. This means that down deep, Dean still feels these things to some extent. The spectre when it first saw Dean at the hospital even said to him “Oh, the spectre likes you” as though recognizing a good victim when he saw one. It could actually smell Dean’s unresolved issues on him.
I agree with Leah and Kelly, the focus of Dean’s rant seemed really off in this scene. If it had focused more on the issues that Dean had a right to feel some resentment about, like leaving him in purgatory, it would have come off better and made Dean seem like less of a grudge holder.[/quote]
i looked at the scene a little differently. different eyes i guess. i thought dean’s rant was off. he was going off about things sam didn’t have control over and things that dean knows sam has paid for.
what i did notice was that everything dean was yelling at sam about dean has just recently done himself. not telling dean he was souless for a year, dean keeping purgatory a secret, sam in cahoots with ruby, dean is in cahoots with benny…dean mentioning the demon blood, he let a vampire inside his body….
i just felt like these are issues that dean may have resented at some point, but i believe he got over too. i think this had more to do with dean’s current issues with himself. he did admit to sam that he didnt like lying to him.
jmo of course.
That’s an interesting take. I hadn’t thought of that possible connection before. If that was what they were intending than it didn’t really work though because this is the first time I’ve read it. So the majority of viewers missed it.
That’s a very interesting take on the situation nappi, and if this is actually the case, I’d like to see more information come up about it (and soon too!). I guess my only lingering problem with the whole ‘penny’ situation is that it was made it pretty clear in the episode that those who committed acts of violence were acting on heightened impulses that were buried deep within but that those issues, however old, mild, petty or unimportant in the grand scheme of things, were in fact still there, and were still to some extent unresolved. Garth was unaffected by the penny because he has no issues with anyone. He may have, in his past somewhere, but he has truly forgiven and laid them to rest leaving nothing for the spectre to latch on to. Now, I think Dean has plenty of relevant and current things to feel miffed at Sam about, mostly the leaving him in purgatory issue; he has a right to be struggling with that, I think we all are. But the other stuff? Oy, I just wish that the writers’ hadn’t gone there…it was sooooo over the top and made it seem like Dean resents Sam for every wrong he’s ever committed since childhood and that he can’t let go of anything even though he has claimed that he has. If the writers have plans to loop these issues Dean brought up back onto things he feels guilty for himself (which would be pretty cool actually), I wish they would go ahead and do it. Because the “better brother” issue is almost as big of a white elephant as the “didn’t look” issue and they both are in bad need of some kind of resolution.
[quote]Hi Jo1027,
On the comment Dean won’t forgive Sam for being soulless, I don’t recall that being the case? Sam had no control over being soulless, and Cas bringing Sam back, did not intend to bring him back sans soul.[/quote]
That was one of the things he threw at Sam in an episode earlier this season.
You may be able to forgive Cas for all the shit he’s pulled but I can’t and I don’t see how Dean can when he can’t forgive Sam for anything he’s done wrong.
Jojo1027,
Which episode? That does not sound familiar at all. And what is this “penny” episode everyone is talking about? Was I in a coma for part of this season?
You are honestly saying Dean BLAMES Sam for being Soulless after Hell? That is like Dean blaming Sam for being born a boy. And Dean has not forgiven Sam for coming back from Hell without a Soul? Is that what everyone is saying? I have asked this question several times in posts today, and no one has provided this specific episode or scene.
Geez, [b]Nate. [/b] I don’t mean to be rude, but we’ve mentioned the title in response to your questions several times today. And eilf even quoted the dialogue.
It’s SOUTHERN COMFORT.
And yes, it’s while Dean was under the influence of the spectre.
[quote]Caught only the end of the episode where Dean was praying to Cas. Why would he do that since Cas is the one who has continually hurt Sam? In season 4 he was part of the reason for the wedge between the brothers and he had a direct role in starting the apocalypse. He broke Sam’s wall and caused him tremendous amounts of pain. So why would Dean think he would help Sam? He would be the last person I would have asked for help for Sam given his track record. Also, given how Dean holds grudges why has he seemed to have forgiven Cas for everything he’s done but won’t forgive his brother for being soulless which again was Cas’s fault?
So Cas gets a hand-wave for everything he’s done and Sam gets dumped on? Doesn’t sit well for me.[/quote]
yeah, [b]Jo[/b], I think I’m with you on the Dean praying to Cas issue, it didn’t sit entirely well with me either given the history of Cas and what he did to Sam in the past. I’ve never understood why, of everyone who’s hurt Sam, Cas seems to get forgiven by Dean. To be honest, it doesn’t make much sense to me that Sam and Dean like Cas so much in the first place given the history they have with him. He’s been just as able to harm them as to help them. I think it’s just a case of the writers (or enough fans) like Cas so he stays in the show.
Also, I was thinking that Cas might not be able to hear Dean or be able to manifest in the MoL bunker because the building is warded against the supernatural and so might be Angel-proofed.
[b]Ciar[/b], I’ve always thought that Sam is more willing to forgive Cas than Dean, and that’s because Sam sees a lot of himself in Castiel.
In S7, Dean was not going to reach out to Cas or do anything w/him. Sam reached out to him b/c Sam identifies w/him. Cas had good intentions when he started his mission in S6. Heck, he even had good intentions in trying to rescue Sam from the Cage. Sam understands what’s it like to make massive mistakes and mess up everything in spite of your good intentions. He did that in S4. I think that’s why Sam was so quick to forgive Cas in S7. He’s messed up before and knows how it is.
Now, I don’t think Sam and Cas are good friends or even friends at all, but I do think Sam considers Cas an ally. If Cas were trouble, I think Sam would try to help him.
Sam does not bear any bad feelings toward Cas. He really never has.
[quote]Caught only the end of the episode where Dean was praying to Cas. Why would he do that since Cas is the one who has continually hurt Sam? In season 4 he was part of the reason for the wedge between the brothers and he had a direct role in starting the apocalypse. He broke Sam’s wall and caused him tremendous amounts of pain. So why would Dean think he would help Sam? He would be the last person I would have asked for help for Sam given his track record. Also, given how Dean holds grudges why has he seemed to have forgiven Cas for everything he’s done but won’t forgive his brother for being soulless which again was Cas’s fault?
So Cas gets a hand-wave for everything he’s done and Sam gets dumped on? Doesn’t sit well for me.[/quote]
IMO it’s a little more complicated; Sam had already forgiven Cas; remember he was the one that reached out and prayed to Cas after Cas went off the deep end at the beginning of S7. Given everything he’s done, it natural that Sam is faster to forgive others. While Dean does hold grudges, I think that has softened somewhat as both the brothers have matured this year and maybe he’s taking his cue from Sam on this i.e. if Sam could forgive him, maybe he should as well.
When it comes to Sam, Dean will do anything to help him. Remember when he went looking for help when Sam was in the psychiatric ward mid-S7? Even after he found out the healer was Cas, he set aside all of his anger and feelings of betrayal because it was to save Sam. Dean knows what Sam is in for with these trials and that he’s not going to be able to help him with the physical consequences of God’s little obstacle course so he turned to the only one he thinks can help.
[quote]When it comes to Sam, Dean will do anything to help him. Remember when he went looking for help when Sam was in the psychiatric ward mid-S7? Even after he found out the healer was Cas, he set aside all of his anger and feelings of betrayal because it was to save Sam. Dean knows what Sam is in for with these trials and that he’s not going to be able to help him with the physical consequences of God’s little obstacle course so he turned to the only one he thinks can help.[/quote]
This is a good point! I also think Dean probably doesn’t think Castiel is – at heart – a bad or evil being. So even though Cas has made huge mistakes and done awful things, Dean probably believes Cas has good intentions.
[quote]This is a good point! I also think Dean probably doesn’t think Castiel is – at heart – a bad or evil being. So even though Cas has made huge mistakes and done awful things, Dean probably believes Cas has good intentions.[/quote]
lala2, that is exactly how I feel about Cas. ๐
‘ [quote][quote]This is a good point! I also think Dean probably doesn’t think Castiel is – at heart – a bad or evil being. So even though Cas has made huge mistakes and done awful things, Dean probably believes Cas has good intentions.[/quote]
lala2, that is exactly how I feel about Cas. :-)[/quote]
I think that nothing makes Dean more willing to trust anyone other than loyalty in battle. Cass proved himself during their time in purgatory and absolved himself by staying even when he had the chance of escaping…for this reason I think Dean continues to be loyal to Cass even though he is clearly being messed with by an unknown force…
Well that’s nice, but since Dean still hasn’t forgiven Sam, I’m not persuaded. Dean DOESN’T trust Sam to do the trials. He has made that clear. Dean still harbors resentment about Sam for his mistakes. But Dean is willing to let bygones be bygones with Castiel, because hey! Castiel only killed tens of thousands of people, murdered half his family and broke Sam’s brain. There are ways to explain this, but they don’t make Dean look very good.
That was my reaction as well. Cas actively worked to get Sam to break the last seal in season 4. He continued to call Sam an abomination in season 5. He showed no interest as to what happened to Sam to change him after he got him from the cage in season 6 and went on to break his wall in season 6. He has expressed no remorse about hurting Sam since. Remorse that he killed the angels (as he should), yes. Remorse about what he specifically did to Sam, no. He took on Sam’s insanity, but he only lived with it for a month or so at best.
I would not call on someone to help who had acted this way toward them. But Dean did and there that’s that. This is the latest in the line of decisions made by the writers that lead me to believe they are taking a direction that I will not enjoy.
My point of view exactly. As long as Cas doesn’t apologize to Sam for the things he’s done to him, he will never be forgiven by me. And I will never understand how Dean can forgive him for what he’s done to Sam either.
Castiel DID express deep remorse, and has been punishing himself as penance ever since.
And he did apologize specifically to Sam in “Born Again Identity.” He expressed remorse both in word and deed.
Bamboo24–thank you for clearing that up. Actions speak louder than words, Cas has been there for the boys MANY times. Each character does not-so-nice things to each other, the brothers included. But each of those characters have redeemed their actions (only to many times repeat, kind of the nature of the beast when Heaven and Hell are involved).
Cas did apologize in BAI, it may not have been fully satisfying but he did apologize. I think lala2 is right, Sam can forgive him because he made similar mistakes. Dean DID have trouble forgiving him.
My issue with Cas’s apology in BAI is that he said he was sorry at a time when Sam was so out of it that he did not even know that the sentiment of remorse was being expressed or could have appreciated that Cas felt bad. To me that apology was more an expression of Cas’s remorse in the moment than an actual apology to Sam. I think that Cas IS truly remorseful for breaking Sam’s wall, but aside from that one “I’m sorry” when Cas first sees the damage that he’d done, he has not apologized to Sam’s face or asked Sam for forgiveness in a away that acknowledges TO SAM that Cas understands what he did was wrong.
E, okay I definitely agree with that. The whole Sam/Cas relationship is problematic for me. They’ve known each other for several years now. Been through war together. Saved each others lives. Obviously care about one another. Sam worries about Cas. Cas worries about Sam. They’ve both made extremely similar mistakes for basically the same reason.
But they rarely interact. Everything goes through Dean. One of the few times Sam speaks directly to Cas in a meaningful way is when he is pleading with God!Cas. And Cas isn’t even there. The only other real conversation that I can remember is when Sam looks so guilty for making CAS crazy in RiF.
Considering the parallels in their lives and complicated nature of their relationship, including the fact that Cas all but destroyed Sam and then sacrificed his sanity to save him, it is completely idiotic that the writers haven’t mined this for dramatic gold.
It occurs to me that Cas knows what happened in Purgatory so if Sam ever got a clean shot at talking to him he could explain a lot of things that Dean refuses to.
For some reason the writers don’t want this *shakes fist at sky, Whyyyyyyyyyyyy????* so therefore no Sam and Cas drama.
I don’t understand this storyline….
eilf, that makes sense. Why didn’t Sam try to talk to Cas about what happened in Purgatory? If Cas is going to be a regular, they REALLY need to step up the scenes between. It seems like such a waste of a good storyline.
I’m really not sure if the writers want Cas to have a real relationship with Sam. The character came on as being attached to Dean. Certainly the vocal part of his fandom want him to remain attached only to Dean. None of the writers have shown any interest in making a connection between Sam and Cas. This season with the complete refusal to show or even talk about Sam’s mental state when Dean disappeared, I have trouble believing they will ever have Cas and Sam interact because then they might have to write something for Sam to SAY that deals with his emotions.
My problems with Cas revolve around the fact that Cas’s relationship with Dean has always served to cut Sam out of Dean’s life. Since Sam has no friends of his own this means Sam has no one to talk to and nothing to do. It is too bad, because there is a lot that could and should have been dealt with between Sam and Cas. Since the writers brought up the whole Ruby/Apocalypse story, Cas could talk to Sam about his part in it. He could fill Dean in on the changed voicemail. Sam and Cas both made monumental mistakes trying to save the world. They could bond over that. They could talk about why Cas was willing to break Sam’s mind as a tactic in a war, as opposed to simply transporting Dean and Sam so they couldn’t interfere. There are many ways to have Cas and Sam relate to each other, but all of them have been avoided.
I have seen no indication that Carver has any investment in developing a Sam Cas relationship good or bad. But then neither did Kripke or Gamble. Kripke had Cas SAY he was Sam’s friend to Lucifer in season five, but he never acted in a way that made me believe it. Cas has always revolved around Dean and many fans would be horrified if that ever changed.
This is one of those cases where I most emphatically don’t give a crap whether some fans would be horrified or upset. It makes no sense story wise and actually has a detrimental effect on the show. They HAVE to expand their relationship, especially if he is going to become a series regular. To me that is becoming non-negotiable.
Several people have said they just want Sam to get his own friend. But it makes so much more sense to mine the storylines that are already there, rather than add random characters who will likely only see once or twice a season. That won’t produce the effects I want. Which is first and foremost to get more inside Sam’s head on a much more regularly basis.
I choose to believe that the lack of developmental of Castiel/Sam relationship is more to do with them intending for him to leave the show so it would have been unnecessary. But since his role is to expand, his relationship with Sam show expand as well.
I agree that if Cas’s role is being expanded he should interact more with Sam. Obviously, I have several scenarios that I think need to be explored.
I do wish Sam had a friend of his own, because even if they build on the relationship between Sam and Cas, I think Dean will always be the primary friend of Cas. Sam needs someone who is willing to listen to his POV without having to consider Dean’s. Bobby admitted liking Dean better and distrusted Sam several times throughout the series. Garth said both of them weren’t listening, but really only talked to Dean about the strains between Dean and Sam. Ellen came back to give Dean encouragement and had no interest in or thought for Sam, which was kind of true when she was alive as well. Sheriff Jody is the only person I can think of since season one who is fully human and likes Sam a little more than Dean. Dean gets to have Cas and Benny as BFFs and Sam only has Dean, which means when he has issues with Dean he either ends up hurting Dean’s feelings by talking about them or just shoves them down and they don’t get dealt with. I want someone who is wholly and completely on Sam’s side and who won’t be written off or poorly written like Amelia.
I would love to see more Jody Mills. I loved the report that she had with Sam(I really do think it is the best relationship for Sam outside of Dean and Bobby-and even the Bobby one had problems). And would loved to see Sam interacting with others more in general. BUT I think just bringing in a new person just wouldn’t help that much. Because Cas has been around for 4 seasons. He is so beloved that that it has kept him from dying several times now. He has lots of rich on-screen back story with both Sam and Dean.
But with a new person you would have to develop all that over time. Better writing would’ve definitely helped the Amelia story, but there is no way to create the kind of history that the Cas character has within a few episodes.
So my first preference would be to develop the Sam/Cas relationship while also expanding his relationship with characters like Jody, Charlie and Garth.
Arad, I think Meg is a great character but I would cringe at a friendship with either of the boys. She killed Jo and Ellen! And active tried to kill their dad. I don’t think even Sam has that much forgiveness in his heart. I loved the villain’s redemption on other show (and even this one if you consider Cas a villain) but I don’t think that would work with Meg. She is a demon. Regardless of her motives she is at heart evil. So therefore I don’t think a true redemption is possible.
Yes! Bring Jody back!
I always felt that Ellen was the person in the entire series that had more time for Sam than Dean (though she was fond of both of them) she is pretty much the only person who has ever said to Sam ‘it’s not your fault’.
I would love to see Sam’s relationship with Cas expanded. I’d love to see more of Sam’s interior life full stop. ๐
What about more Meg? That would be good imho – she is quite a cool character and would counterbalance Cas’s presence in the boys’ lives quite nicely.
The problem with Meg is she has done some really really bad stuff in the past. More so than Crowley even, because Crowley hasn’t really made it personal. Meg has. She killed several hunters that the Winchesters were friends with. She took over Sam and tried to get Dean to kill him as well as coming close to killing Jo.
She tried to kill all three of the Winchesters with the shadow demons. She tried to keep Sam from rescuing Dean in Scarecrow. She was still not even remotely forgiven in Caged Heat since Sam (I think) said he was going to kill her if she hadn’t vanished at just the right moment.
The guys have ended up working with her because they needed her (though leaving her to look after Castiel was a … strange … decision) and I am not sure that working with them against the Leviathans really makes up for all the bad stuff. In fact it is hypocritical on all sides if the stuff she has done gets swept under the carpet when the guys can’t forgive each other for anything (the ‘Lucky Charms Rule’ as Percysowner has mentioned).
TLDR: I would like Sam to have a friend who isn’t a female demon ๐
Percy, I agree! If Sam and Castiel were meant to have a relationship or even a friendship, it would have been developed by now. Cas has been on the show for 4 years, and he and Sam still have no “real” relationship.
Sam and Cas will never be friends b/c the writers aren’t interested in making them friends.
Cas did some bad things to Sam but he has in the past believed they were friends. There is potential for their friendship to be expanded:
The Man Who Would Be King:
CASTIEL I’m still me. I’m still your friend. Sam…I’m the one who raised you from Perdition.
The song remains the same:
CASTIEL
The answer’s still no. Because Sam is my friend.
ANNA
You’ve changed.
CASTIEL
Maybe too late, but I have.
CASTIEL turns back to ANNA.
CASTIEL
Anna, we’ve been through much together, but you come near Sam Winchester and I’ll kill you.
I think so too. Just because it hasn’t been taken advantage of up to now, doesn’t mean they can’t in the future.
The problem for me [b]Eilf [/b] is I never saw Sam and Castiel’s relationship progress to a friendship. Presently, I wouldn’t characterize their relationship as a “friendship.” They are more like business associates. That’s why Cas’s declaration to Anna that Sam was his friend was shocking to me and many others.
Over on Supernatural.tv, there was a lot of discussion about that particular line of dialogue. Most of us wanted to know when that occurred. I hadn’t seen their relationship progress to that level.
I find that frequently the writers [i]tell[/i] instead of [i]show[/i] when it comes to Sam. Instead of having Castiel randomly call Sam his friend when there have been no scenes reflecting a change in their relationship, why not show them growing closer or bonding. Show them having a conversation or identifying w/each other. Have Castiel admit his part in the Apocalypse to Sam. Write scenes showing them becoming friendly. Don’t have Cas just call Sam his friend in some random episode.
I felt the saw way about Sam’s relationship w/Bobby. They frequently had Bobby say Sam and Dean were like his sons, but Sam and Bobby rarely had significant scenes together that had nothing to do w/Dean. I never saw a special relationship btw Sam and Bobby like Bobby and Dean. Bobby even said he liked Dean better than Sam. He also didn’t really seem to bother w/Sam unless he had to. All of that was actually fine to me. Sam and Dean don’t have to have the exact same friends or the exact same relationships w/everyone. It just bugged me that Bobby kept saying he loved Sam like a son but I saw no evidence that he really felt that way. Sam and Bobby rarely interacted. I was actually shocked they allowed Sam to grieve over Bobby.
Anyway, my main point is the show has yet, IMO, to develop a true friendship btw Sam and Castiel.
Hi Lala, yes I agree that it hasn’t been developed, that is what I really want to see, but the earlier argument seemed to be that there was no foundation on which to build a friendship and I think there is.
I loved that line where Castiel picked Sam’s side and I feel that it is not completely out of left field (and I don’t think that anything would change my mind on this) BUT if it has at some time been a bone of contention of Amy level proportions in the fandom then consider me rapidly backing away from saying anything further on the subject ๐
Well, I agree with you elif :-). But I really can see lala2 and percy’s opinions as well.
lala2, I always wanted more with the Bobby/Sam relationship too. But I did feel like they had deep one, even if it wasn’t as close as Bobby and Dean. It’s just that a lot of Bobby’s heartfelt Sam moments were actually with Dean. He made Dean give another chance, even after everything he had done. And he never gave up on him. He even told Sam that at the hospital in 5X1. Dean had basically given up on him at that point. Bobby proved it by encouraging Sam to get back in the game in Free to Be You And Me. And he talked about how heroic Sam was in 2M2M.
And sometimes it was just a look or a line like it PoNR, I teared up when Sam comes up from the basement after talking to Dean and Bobby asked how Dean is doing. And Sam shakes his head. And there was total love and concern when Bobby lowers his voice and asks “How are YOU doing?” Sam looked like he was about to lose it. And I did totally bust out crying when he’s giving Sam his good-bye speech and hug in SS.
I would’ve like further development after Bobby’s hesitancy in LaV, but it’s not that unrealistic that it took a little bit but eventually he moved past the image of Sam trying to kill him. I did think since they brought it up that they should resolve it but it wasn’t that big a deal to me.
I thought they had several moments in S7. Would I have like more? Sure. But I can’t get on board with the idea that they didn’t have a close relationship.
My problem is that all Cas ever gave was lip service to a friendship with Sam. I admitted he SAID he was Sam’s friend, but I never saw actions that made me feel he was a friend. Saying I’m still your friend and then breaking the only thing keeping you sane a short time later doesn’t cut it for me.
I found it interesting that in the conversation with Anna, Cas was serving Dean’s wishes, not Sam’s. Sam only asked if scattering his molecules would work to keep Lucifer away. Cas never asked Sam what HE wanted when Anna came back. Neither did Dean. Cas was doing what he knew Dean wanted and what Sam wanted was inconsequential. Again, I see him as Dean’s friend, not Sam’s.
Sam and Castiel are allies but not friends. I do think Sam cares about Castiel’s general welfare but I don’t think I can say the same for Castiel. Any caring Cas has for Sam is usually because of Dean.
Yes, I think Cas was genuinely sorry for what he did to Sam in TBAI but I don’t know if Cas really cares if Sam lives or dies. If he does care, it’s probably because of how Sam’s death would impact Dean.
And I say that because Cas didn’t think anything of dropping Sam’s Wall. He didn’t really care what it would do to Sam or if Sam would even survive. He just did it to distract Dean. It was pretty cold.
lala2, I can see how that argument can be made, but I think they do see each other as friends. Not besties ๐ but friends. But even if they don’t currently, I really think they need to expand their relationship. It is completely ridiculous that they have this extremely complex relationship, but let it all take place with Dean as an intermediary. I really don’t see why.
Hmm . . . I don’t think they see themselves as friends (Jared even mentions in an article that Sam and Cas aren’t friends), but as you said, the writers can definitely expand the relationship.
If Misha is going to be a regular, and if Castiel is going to be more heavily featured in episodes, then they have no choice, IMO, but to actually develop the Sam/Castiel “relationship.” It can’t always be just Dean and Cas having moments while Sam stands silently in the background. Well . . . I guess it could, but I’m not sure how interesting that will be.
I think the possibilities here are rich with potential and I, for one, would love to see it explored.
[quote]Caught only the end of the episode where Dean was praying to Cas. Why would he do that since Cas is the one who has continually hurt Sam? In season 4 he was part of the reason for the wedge between the brothers and he had a direct role in starting the apocalypse. He broke Sam’s wall and caused him tremendous amounts of pain. So why would Dean think he would help Sam? He would be the last person I would have asked for help for Sam given his track record. Also, given how Dean holds grudges why has he seemed to have forgiven Cas for everything he’s done but won’t forgive his brother for being soulless which again was Cas’s fault?
So Cas gets a hand-wave for everything he’s done and Sam gets dumped on? Doesn’t sit well for me.[/quote]
i always believed dean to be angry with God, ever since his mother died. i know he has had mixed feelings concerning cas, but i still get the feeling dean trusts in cas more than God.
jmo of course.
For me, there is no way to suspend disbelief for this episode. It was actually worse than last week’s because it damaged the over all arc rather than just being one-off silly.
I cannot believe the boys think the way to handle their MOL legacy is to bring cases of the week there. The MOL managed to keep their secret even from hunters, but Dean brags about the “secret” society to a civilian. If they are so casual about the bunker, why is Kevin not there, being looked after properly and not starving himself? Ridiculous. And I won’t be able to take it seriously when no doubt the very next week secrecy will be all important again. I think it’s terrible writing when you have to accept new conditions to the story week by week, rather than building on the story you have established.
The Greek god story was moderately well told in that they got the broad details right, but the bar wasn’t set very high with “Hammer of the Gods.” In this one, making a punishment accidentally hereditory is a real stretch, but I can roll with it to make the parallel to the Winchesters. And Artemis is a virgin goddess, with some stories strongly suggesting she is gay. Sam was actually pretty off the mark with his guess.
But most of all, what was their plan in calling Zeus? How was that going to end well? Why wasn’t it shared with the girlfriend? Why would they walk away and leave her behind, with Zeus talking to her? Why didn’t they care that Artemis was still hunting Prometheus?
The brother moments didn’t even sit that well. Sam’s hope lasts all of one episode? Why, because he doesn’t know all about sacrifice or the price that may be paid? He was just naive when he was arguing with Dean about hope? Guess that lovely dynamic in “Trial and Error” between the boys was just throw away rather than moving the boys forward.
And yes, Jensen Ackles rocked the prayer. He always elevates his material and he nails this kind of scene. BUT why is he calling on Cas to look after Sam when last we checked, he and Sam warded a room against Cas because they suspect he’s being controlled and may have murdered Samandriel? That’s not a serious concern when revealing Sam’s vulnerability and all the secrets that give the boys an edge? Dean has thought there was something off about Cas since the angel returned from Purgatory, so why would he risk Sam’s safety even further?
I feel like any semblance of story integrity has gone out the window. So disappointing.
[b]Gerry[/b], I too felt that Artemis was not portrayed correctly either. She’s always been a goddess associated with protecting women and with the punishment of men. I always got the feeling she was more likely to be gay than straight from the Greek mythology I read when I was younger. (I was a geeky child/teenager and my favourite book was Bulfinches’ Mythology).
I liked the idea that she could be considered the goddess of the Sam and Dean type of Hunters – that was a nice leap of logic from Sam – but I didn’t buy the writer’s idea that Artemis has had the secret hots for Prometheus. But then again, SPN writers tend to interpret existing myths and legends to suit themselves or the plot requirements and I don’t complain every time they do it ๐
P.S. I also agree with your comments regarding this week’s inconsistent attitude and behaviour towards Cas from Dean, for exactly the reasons you specified. It didn’t make sense to me and I think this season is suffering from more of that inconsistency than past seasons have. I wonder why? Are the writers not communicating with each other sufficiently to ensure consistency across their plots?!?
” I also agree with your comments regarding this week’s inconsistent attitude and behaviour towards Cas from Dean, for exactly the reasons you specified. It didn’t make sense to me and I think this season is suffering from more of that inconsistency than past seasons have. I wonder why? Are the writers not communicating with each other sufficiently to ensure consistency across their plots?!?”
Ciar, I think this is my biggest disappointment with Jeremy Carver as showrunner. He seems to take canon very lightly, even canon he himself established (John’s father). I’ve never had to decide to ignore past story in order to accept current story so often and that includes season seven, which had a lot of weaknesses. Characterization flip flops, story points are dropped even when they are obviously relevant–whose steering the ship?
I hate that such a lovely moment as Dean praying for his brother’s safety was undercut by Dean ignoring his suspicions about Cas being controlled and therefore not a safe person to pray to. Not Jensen Ackles fault–he nailed the emotions. But he can’t fight the writing.
ciar and Gerry,
I don’t see Dean’s view of Cas as inconsistent. Dean was not going to leave Purgatory without Cas. Dean knows Cas has been working to rectify his past mistakes. Dean and Sam DO NOT KNOW Cas is being controlled. They know something is up with Cas (when it something NOT up with Cas?). They have no idea about Naomi. For all Dean knows Cas is off still working to rectify is past mistakes. Remember other than Purgatory, Cas has not been arond the boys on a regular basis. Cas is a friend to Dean, his best other than Sam. It is natural (and very mature) for Dean to need to talk to his friend. This friend also happens to be an Angel and can hear Dean’s prayer. Dean needs his friend. There could be a separate spin-off about Dean ignoring his suspicions about many characters. Even when there is more going on than Dean sees, he will always be loyal to and trust Cas. I believe Cas earned the trust back in his actions post-Crowley partnership. And I believe Dean understands Cas was working with Crowley because at that time Cas felt he had no other choice. He was not lying to Dean, just doing what he felt he had to.
Nate, Torn and Frayed specifically showed Sam and Dean warding the cabin against Cas so they could discuss their suspicions about Samandriel’s death, which they think suggest Cas is being controlled. They don’t know the specifics, but they don’t trust what happened with heaven’s most adorable angel or how Cas got out of Purgatory.
And given that, it’s not natural and mature for Dean to ask Cas to help Sam. Cas said he was going to help Samandriel and he killed him in suspicious circumstances. Dean is no stranger to having to suspect people’s motivations even when he cares for them–especially Cas. He’s suspecting Cas is being controlled right now, not deliberately betraying them, but either way, he’s not safe.
Gerry,
First, “heaven’s most adorable angel ” has be laughing out loud! ๐
I am stealing part of a review from Huff Post for “Remember The Titans.” The reviewer put it better than I can. I agree with the below. And again, I see Dean talking to Cas as much about Dean reaching out to a friend to talk, maybe more than asking for Cas to help. If Dean thinks something is up with Cas, he still is on a surface level needing to talk to his friend about his Sam concerns.
“…..the closing minutes, when Dean shut himself in his room to pray to Castiel for his help in protecting Sam. That scene spoke volumes about how well Dean knows his little brother, how deeply he cares about Sam’s well-being, and his growing emotional maturity as a character, allowing himself to be vulnerable and open up to his friend.”
Nate, I don’t disagree about how much Dean cares for Sam or that he picked up on Sam’s distress–which doesn’t surprise me at all. But choosing now to open up and be vulnerable to Cas? That only makes sense if you ignore his suspicions about Cas he’s voiced since Cas returned and specifically in Torn and Frayed. He’s worried Cas murdered the angel he set out to protect.
I really hate writing that shifts plot and character from week to week so remembering past episodes is pointless. Supernatural has always seemed to me to be flagship for a show where canon matters. They’ve slipped up from time to time, but not on the important things.
This year, no one on staff except Ben Edlund seems much concerned with canon and the writing has really slipped. At this point, I’d never try to convince a non-watcher that Supernatural is a well written show with fantastic characterization between the brothers that rings true to life. I have to constantly pretend past events haven’t happened to get through episodes. It’s like this whole season is as tonally deaf and inconsistent as Time for a Wedding was last year.
Hi Gerry!
I like your points, but I view the events differently. I don’t see the shifts (other than “Friend with Benifits” that Alice pointed out in that review). For me I can relate the to the characters. The boys have a complicated life, no question. Dean had just had a conversation where Sam was down, and Dean really needed someone to talk to. Take away the suspicions Dean has of Cas. Cas is Dean’s best friend other than Sam, and Dean needed to chat with his best friend, to share his concerns. Cas has a complicated existence too, drama left and right. Dean knows all of that, but in that moment in his new room, Dean needed his best friend. Dean is human, and kudos to him for wanting to share some emotion. Too bad his BFF is an Angel with all kinds of drama! On a pure friendship level, it worked for me, and Jensen…..home run, touchdown, goal.
I feel there is no comparison in regards to overall quality in this season and the last 2. (As I type this Season 6 is starting on TNT!). I have faith in Carver & Co. and I hope you continue to enjoy the show.
Hi Nate. Having to take away Dean’s suspicions about Cas to make the scene make sense is in a nutshell my concerns about the writing. Jensen was great–it was the connection to the over all arc that wasn’t.
I’ve had to forget the set up in Swan Song and season six to believe Dean’s lack of forgiveness of Sam over Ruby and Soulless Sam in Southern Comfort. I’ve had to forget Sam following up his threat against Benny in Southern Comfort with siccing Martin on Benny to feel comfortable with Dean being good with Sam, and on top of that, I have to forget Sam let Kate go to accept his 180 degree turn on Benny. And that’s not even getting into having to accept Sam would not look for his brother when he had no answers on what happened to him.
Anyway. Obviously I’m having issues with the show. I have no idea whether I’ll be able to keep watching it next year. I’ll certainly give it this season to see if Carver ties everything up in a way that feels organic and real. But organic and real is not the way I’d describe the progression of this season.
[quote]” I also agree with your comments regarding this week’s inconsistent attitude and behaviour towards Cas from Dean, for exactly the reasons you specified. It didn’t make sense to me and I think this season is suffering from more of that inconsistency than past seasons have. I wonder why? Are the writers not communicating with each other sufficiently to ensure consistency across their plots?!?”
Ciar, I think this is my biggest disappointment with Jeremy Carver as showrunner. He seems to take canon very lightly, even canon he himself established (John’s father). I’ve never had to decide to ignore past story in order to accept current story so often and that includes season seven, which had a lot of weaknesses. Characterization flip flops, story points are dropped even when they are obviously relevant–whose steering the ship?
I hate that such a lovely moment as Dean praying for his brother’s safety was undercut by Dean ignoring his suspicions about Cas being controlled and therefore not a safe person to pray to. Not Jensen Ackles fault–he nailed the emotions. But he can’t fight the writing.[/quote]
[b]Gerry[/b], I feel as though the writers are playing faster and looser with backstory and canon much more often this year than theyรขโฌโขve done in the past and I also feel as though the characters of Sam and Dean are less consistent with themselves between episodes this year too.
Iรขโฌโขm used to different writers having different takes on the brothers, and the writing reflecting this, but this year it feels to me like Dean is fluctuating between states really quickly and Sam is not far behind him. I think a showrunner who had more interest in maintaining consistent canon could be a good thing for SPN. Iรขโฌโขm not saying Kripke and Gamble got it perfect all the time but I just feel like Iรขโฌโขm noticing this stuff a lot more this year since Carver took over. I know that SPN is a long-running series and that most viewers won’t really mind the writers playing around with canon too much, but I like my show creators to be fastidious as much as possible about maintaining integrity of what they’ve created.
[quote]ciar and Gerry,
I don’t see Dean’s view of Cas as inconsistent. Dean was not going to leave Purgatory without Cas. Dean knows Cas has been working to rectify his past mistakes. Dean and Sam DO NOT KNOW Cas is being controlled. They know something is up with Cas (when it something NOT up with Cas?). They have no idea about Naomi. For all Dean knows Cas is off still working to rectify is past mistakes. Remember other than Purgatory, Cas has not been arond the boys on a regular basis. Cas is a friend to Dean, his best other than Sam. It is natural (and very mature) for Dean to need to talk to his friend. This friend also happens to be an Angel and can hear Dean’s prayer. Dean needs his friend. There could be a separate spin-off about Dean ignoring his suspicions about many characters. Even when there is more going on than Dean sees, he will always be loyal to and trust Cas. I believe Cas earned the trust back in his actions post-Crowley partnership. And I believe Dean understands Cas was working with Crowley because at that time Cas felt he had no other choice. He was not lying to Dean, just doing what he felt he had to.[/quote]
[b]Nate[/b], my point was not that Dean and Sam should notice somethingรขโฌโขs up with Cas (although I do agree with [b]Gerryรขโฌโขs[/b] point that in an earlier S8 ep they did notice something was up with Cas and they warded against him hearing them to discuss it).
My point is that Iรขโฌโขve never understood why the character of Cas is so easily forgiven by the Winchesters other than for the simple reason that the writers (or fan interest) has made it so. Cas is not really a character that I particularly like, Iรขโฌโขve grown to tolerate him more than anything, but based on the interactions heรขโฌโขs had with Sam and Dean over the years Iรขโฌโขm still not convinced that heรขโฌโขs someone they should forgive so easily.
My other point is that Dean praying to Cas seems strange to me given that Dean knows Casรขโฌโข behaviour is off and he knows that Cas is limited in what he can (and has been able) to do to help Sam. I loved the scene of Dean worrying about his little brother but, to me, it felt like Cas was being shoehorned into that scene. I know Dean isnรขโฌโขt a big fan of God so I can see why he wouldnรขโฌโขt necessarily pray for Godรขโฌโขs help for Sam but, personally, Iรขโฌโขm not convinced that Dean would pray for Casรขโฌโข help for Sam.
Hi ciar,
I was wrong–Sam and Dean think something is up with Cas, maybe even being controlled. I blanked on that, but remember the scene now. IMO the reason Cas is forgiven is he has put himself on the line for the brothers many times. Cas has grown as a “person” being with the boys. He understands free will, something that is “like teaching poetry to fish.” There have been comments throughout the series how the Winchesters are Cas’s favorite humans. And IMO Cas felt bad with his actions in Season 6, and has been trying to make up for them since. They have been to heck and back with Cas, so he is viewed as a friend and ally.
As far as the last scene, I think that was more about Dean needing to talk to a friend about his Sam fears. I think it was more that than actually wanting Cas to protect Sam. Dean knows something is off with Cas, but he misses his friend and needs someone to talk to.
I’m also amazed at how easily Cas has been forgiven. Part of that is because I don’t think he ever revealed how much damage he did during season four. But even so, this blanket forgiveness of Cas, coupled with showing the audience that whatever Cas does against the brothers is beyond his control, so we should pity him bothers me. Sam took responsibility for what Soulless!Sam did and the audience still gets hammered over the head with just how bad Sam was. Cas just skates on by.
[b]Ciar[/b], Sam forgives Castiel because he identifes w/him.
Sam has messed up before despite nobel intentions, and his actions had devastating consequences. All Castiel wanted to do was prevent war or another apocalypse. That is not an evil or bad goal. The problem is he went “darkside” to achieve his goal. Sam understands that completely. He’s done the same before.
Now, Dean was less willing to forgive Castiel, but in 7.01, Castiel did express a sincere apology to Dean for what he had done to Sam. I don’t believe he was lying or manipulating Dean. He was genuinely sorry and wanted to fix his mistakes. He messed up. Dean saw that. I never cared for it b/c it deprived Sam of his only interesting story (but not really in the way Sera & Co. were telling it), but Cas did take on Sam’s hallucinations. He also fought w/Dean in Purgatory. For all those reasons, Dean has forgiven Sam.
JMO. Miles vary as they say.
[quote][b]Ciar[/b], Sam forgives Castiel because he identifes w/him.
Now, Dean was less willing to forgive Castiel, but in 7.01, Castiel did express a sincere apology to Dean for what he had done to Sam. quote]
This didn’t work for me because he didn’t apologize to Sam. What good did it do to apologize to Dean for what he did to Sam? It did nothing for me but make me angrier.
Oh, I agree. I would have preferred to see Castiel apologize directly to Sam in 7.01. He did apologize to Sam (I think) in TBAI, but it’s not like Sam could understand what he said or anything.
I think we’re supposed to see Castiel’s decision to take on Sam’s hallucinations as his redemption for breaking Sam’s Wall. I’m not sure if that worked for you. It was all right to me. I was mostly disappointed that Sam’s story had come to an abrupt end after it had been stalled for 15 episodes. I guess Cas taking on Sam’s hallucinations would have meant more, to me, if Sam’s story had been better.
[quote]Oh, I agree. I would have preferred to see Castiel apologize directly to Sam in 7.01. He did apologize to Sam (I think) in TBAI, but it’s not like Sam could understand what he said or anything.
I think we’re supposed to see Castiel’s decision to take on Sam’s hallucinations as his redemption for breaking Sam’s Wall. I’m not sure if that worked for you. It was all right to me. I was mostly disappointed that Sam’s story had come to an abrupt end after it had been stalled for 15 episodes. I guess Cas taking on Sam’s hallucinations would have meant more, to me, if Sam’s story had been better.[/quote]
No, it didn’t work for me because Sam endured 180 years in the Cage and Cas had a month of suffering. Doesn’t even come close for me. He owed Sam more than that IMO. And it wasn’t just the wall breaking that he did to Sam.
He’s also never owned up to his part in starting the apocolypse and still blames Dean and Sam solely for that.
These things bother me and I’m not sure anything will change that for me.
I understand.
I don’t hate Castiel so it is probably easier for me to move on with the story. Miles vary. I hate that he never owned up to his part in the Apocalypse and that he dropped Sam’s wall but I do believe he was genuinely sorry for doing that. I don’t think he was lying about that. The Show doesn’t seem interested in addressing any of this on a deeper level though.
I can come up with reasons why Dean has forgiven Cas, but since the writers are crystal clear that Dean has not really forgiven Sam for, well anything up to and including the damned Lucky Charms, I find his forgiveness of Cas to be problematic.
Sam does forgive Cas because he understands. However, one apology while Sam was unable to hear it does not cut it for me. Cas has never shown much concern for Sam and apologizing in BAI while Sam was incapacitated seems more like a show for Dean than any real regret for hurting SAM. Yes, he made amends by taking Sam’s insanity, and yes he didn’t know how much or how little he would suffer, but frankly he suffered a lot less time than Sam did. He was an angel after all, so why wouldn’t he heal faster?
Ultimately, my issues with Cas and responsibility is that he has never owned up most of his bad actions. He never admitted letting Sam out of the panic room. He never admitted he killed Balthazar, his best friend and second in command in the fight against Raphael. He pinned all of his bad actions on Balthazar and has never taken responsibility for them. He ran around the world, openly killing people, so he can’t deny that. The same thing applies to killing half the angels in heaven. But on the whole Cas wreaks destruction then plays “who me?”. I would say it is far to late to deal with any of these issues, but damn it Dean brought up Ruby and all of Sam’s mistakes, so Cas should be called on his stuff as well.
[quote]I can come up with reasons why Dean has forgiven Cas, but since the writers are crystal clear that Dean has not really forgiven Sam for, well anything up to and including the damned Lucky Charms, I find his forgiveness of Cas to be problematic.
Sam does forgive Cas because he understands. However, one apology while Sam was unable to hear it does not cut it for me. Cas has never shown much concern for Sam and apologizing in BAI while Sam was incapacitated seems more like a show for Dean than any real regret for hurting SAM. Yes, he made amends by taking Sam’s insanity, and yes he didn’t know how much or how little he would suffer, but frankly he suffered a lot less time than Sam did. He was an angel after all, so why wouldn’t he heal faster?
Ultimately, my issues with Cas and responsibility is that he has never owned up most of his bad actions. He never admitted letting Sam out of the panic room. He never admitted he killed Balthazar, his best friend and second in command in the fight against Raphael. He pinned all of his bad actions on Balthazar and has never taken responsibility for them. He ran around the world, openly killing people, so he can’t deny that. The same thing applies to killing half the angels in heaven. But on the whole Cas wreaks destruction then plays “who me?”. I would say it is far to late to deal with any of these issues, but damn it Dean brought up Ruby and all of Sam’s mistakes, so Cas should be called on his stuff as well.[/quote]
YES! THIS!
[quote]The brother moments didn’t even sit that well. Sam’s hope lasts all of one episode? Why, because he doesn’t know all about sacrifice or the price that may be paid? He was just naive when he was arguing with Dean about hope? Guess that lovely dynamic in “Trial and Error” between the boys was just throw away rather than moving the boys forward.
[/quote]
I took this entirely differently. Sam’s hope last episode came before the spell, remember, before he was afflicted by that light inside his hand/arm. The moment he experienced that pain, you could tell he was shaken up by it. Then he began coughing up blood. And Sam is faced with a catch-22: continue on and save the world, or stop and save himself. You can tell he’s struggling with it – keeps having to remind himself that it’s “worth it.” And you can also tell he’s trying to prepare Dean, in his own way, by gently suggesting – “hey, maybe I was naive to think I could make it through these trials unscathed.” That was a confession if there ever was one. Like a neon sign screaming “I’m Not Okay.” At that point Dean knew for certain that Sam was being affected, was hurting, but he was trying to not freak out about it – trying to let Sam do this on his own. But that doesn’t mean he stopped worrying. I think Dean needed an anchor – needed to believe there was something or someone stronger than himself who could help look after Sam. And who does he have but Cas?
I think Dean has the mindset that even if Cas is going through something they don’t know about, him being around is better than his absence. I think Dean really just wanted to feel less alone and impotent in his attempts to protect his brother. Manipulated or not, with Bobby dead, who knows or cares from them as well as Castiel?
But I don’t think his prayer got anywhere – the bunker is completely impenetrable from all Supernatural forces, angels included. So I doubt the prayer actually got to Cas. I think the purpose of that scene was to reveal to us Dean’s state of mind – how hard it is for him to let Sam go forward with the trials, knowing it could kill him.
Bamboo, I have a real problem with it being news to Sam the trials may kill him and that he’s shaken up by the possibility he may need to save himself. He’s the guy who threw himself into the pit to save the world. As Dean said, they more than anyone know the cost of saving the world.
Sam’s retort that he can see hope anyway and that he can teach Dean to hope was very powerful and moving–when he seemed to have a basis for feeling that. If it was just that he didn’t think there would be any pain or suffering, then he was naive and Dean was right he should be doing the trials. He may be fatalistic, but at least he’s realistic. I think all the power of Sam’s choice is being rapidly sucked out of the show. One episode to lose hope? Did he think it would be easy?
And if Dean is suspicious Cas killed Samandriel because he’s being controlled, enough to have warded Rufus’s to even discuss how off Cas seems, then how does exposing Sam’s vulnerability to whoever may be controlling Cas feel like he’s getting support? Samandriel’s murder is a pretty big deal considering Cas’s mission was to save him. That seems to have vanished from Dean’s consciousness. The writing just flip flops from week to week, ignoring story set up.
The bunker doesn’t seem particularly impenetrable at this point. Artemis got in. And Sam in Everybody Hate Hitler seemed to think Cas could reach him. Another story point that’s pretty malleable from week to week.
[quote]The bunker doesn’t seem particularly impenetrable at this point. Artemis got in.[/quote]
She did? Weren’t they in a hotel?
I don’t think Artemis was ever in the bunker.
Have to rewatch, but I think they went there after Artemis found them.
I think it was just a random warehouse or something that they could fight in. It never occurred to me that they were still at the bunker TBH
(though it could have been the building over the bunker perhaps?)
She never entered the bunker. She was in their hotel room at one point and whatever warehouse/building they were in at the end of the episode.
Maybe Artemis wasn’t there, but Prometheus definitely was and so was his supernaturally cursed son.
[quote]Bamboo, I have a real problem with it being news to Sam the trials may kill him and that he’s shaken up by the possibility he may need to save himself. .[/quote]
I didn’t take it that way, Gerry.
I think Sam is concerned that he’s not going to survive to complete the trials. He’s concerned about the physical toll it’s [i]already[/i] taking, and worried he won’t be able to finish. And while he [i]wants[/i] to live (and take Dean with him), I don’t believe he’s afraid of it.
st50, that makes more sense than Sam actually being shaken by the idea of the trials being difficult. But it should take more than one episode of Sam hiding blood from Dean for him to lose his hope, or his hope wasn’t based on much. I’d like to think Sam had faith in free will trumping fate again, and it would be nice to get some good story set up for him to lose that faith–as in more than one episode.
Oh I agree, Gerry.
But this season is alternating between moving at lightening speeds and a turtle pace. I’m getting whiplash! (Unfortunately, exploration of Sam and Dean’s motivations is the lightening part.)
I also like to think that, if fear is involved, Sam would be remembering (even if Season 8 isn’t) that the only time the Supernatural world hurt him while he wasn’t actually on a hunt was Season 7 and Lucifer. That kind of pain and torment has got to leave a mark. ๐ Now he’s coughing up blood weeks after completing the first trial…. so it’s not really about the actions he’s taking now. It’s the long term, lingering effects.
If Sam were actually remembering – and fearing – that kind of pain, I think it would be more understandable for the viewer. Unfortunately, there’s yet been little to no recognition of what happened to Sam in season 7…..
ETA: I don’t put demon blood in the same catagory here. It was a supernatural influence force upon him by yellow-eyes, but Sam had some element of control over the addiction part. He simply chose the wrong thing for the right reasons, and then had to pay for his mistakes. This time, he doesn’t seem to have any control.
st50, I’m just so tired of whiplash writing about core elements of the series. There are definitely things the writers can do with Sam’s hope, but this episode didn’t do it for me. I’d be very open to Sam struggling with hell damage, tying into past seasons, especially done well rather than at lightning speed or abruptly started and stopped. I’d also love some plot consistency so I don’t have to raise my eyebrows at a lovely scene Jensen just nailed.
[quote]….especially done well rather than at lightning speed or abruptly started and stopped. [/quote]
That’s what the end of season 7 and the entirety of season 8 have been, though.. I’ve seen so many great (and not great) plot points that look like they might be leading some where, only to vanish as if they’d never been. Starting with the wall damage and on to Purgatory and Benny/ Amelia and not looking…… So yes, I agree with being tired of it.
[quote]
a lovely scene Jensen just nailed.[/quote]
He really did nail it, though, didn’t he. ๐ I’m just going to admire that work for a bit, and ignore the rest. We’ve got 3 weeks to fuss over the inconsistencies. And worry about what plot points they’re going to drop next. ๐ฎ
ste50, agree, that is what I was trying to get across too. Sam did not flip flop on his hope speech. He WANTS to live, that hope is not gone, the realization (after the physical toll of just 1 of 3 trials) he may not survive is now a reality. Maybe the final trial is only completed upon the death of the person doing them? Maybe they should have waited for Kevin to finish the translation….
Why is Sam only now realizing the trial may cost him his life? That was the position Dean started from and why he wanted to do the trials. I thought Sam knew the possibilities and chose to believe there was hope. I don’t mind Sam struggling with the trials and hope, but not on the basis he didn’t know what he was getting into. He more than anyone knows what may be asked. That’s why to me his hope was so moving.
I don’t believe he’s “only now realizing” it, Gerry. I think he knew from the start, and simply believed he’d have a better chance at success than Dean, when Dean stated he expected death as the only outcome…
Knowing, accepting it, having hope of success and still feeling some worry/regret/fear isn’t all that surprising, really, imo. Plus knowing how protective Dean is, and being afraid of his reactions…. I think that is very “Sam”.
The issue for me is how the interaction with Prometheus is supposed to have impacted Sam. And that looked to be Sam losing hope because Prometheus did die in the end, as if now he’s thinking death IS the only outcome. I have no problem at all with the way you are presenting Sam’s thought process, but I do with the way the episode painted it. Sam has already faced doing the unimaginable for the good of humanity–I want the writers to remember his back story. I want to know his basis for hope.
They both are more than aware that death could be the final result. Dean assumed it, Sam wants to do everything he can to NOT have that be the result.
Sam wanted to do the trials b/c he wanted to survive them. He saw Dean wanting to do them b/c Dean automatically thought the person would die, and Dean wanted that person to be himself. Sam thouht that was a bad attitude to have re: the trials.
Sam is now afraid. I like that Sam is expressing fear and doubt. It humanizes him. It’s better than him functioning at 100% for 13 straight episodes last year DESPITE being plagued non-stop, 24/7 by Lucifer annoying the crap out of him! That made Sam “unreal” and “robotic” IMO.
Here, Sam expresses his fears. That was a great moment in the Impala.
This is how I saw it too st50. And this may be a small point, but didn’t Dean say or it was indicated in some way that several weeks had passed since Sam took over the trials? It wasn’t the next day that Sam started to doubt himself, its been a while. I think that we are meant to assume that some time has passed and Sam has been getting increasingly troublesome symptoms from the trials. The problem I think comes from the fact that we haven’t really been shown this very well, other than one coughing incident and now one blood in the sink moment. We’ve kind of had to assume that things are getting worse for Sam without the benefit of having seen it much for ourselves.
Yes, I haven’t looked at the transcripts, but I believe they said it had been 2 or 3 weeks since the trial began.
And I may be seeing things, but I think Sam’s (Jared’s?) make-up is getting paler. He’s beginning to look tired and sick, to me. But maybe I’m imagining it. (or maybe that was just Jared’s cold/flu)
I just laughed that, after spitting up blood, Sam could be tossed around and slammed into walls without even a tiny cough resulting.
His symptoms magically disappear in times of ‘hunt’… kind of like Lucifer. :-*
I also think that Sam is trying to prepare Dean for the fact that Sam was overly optimistic about surviving the trials. When he took them on he believed he would survive and that he had the better chance of surviving because he did have the positive outlook. Now, the trials are taking a toll and he wants Dean to not be completely devastated and caught off guard if Sam dies. I mean, yes, I think Sam is afraid because he’s human, but he also told Dean he would lead Dean to the light and now, he’s seeing signs that he may not be able to do that.
Poor Sam. If he doesn’t tell Dean the second he shows signs of being hurt he’s a liar. As soon as he tries to work his way into the subject he is inconsistent and naive for not realizing there could be a problem. Guy can’t win no matter what he does.
[quote]Poor Sam. If he doesn’t tell Dean the second he shows signs of being hurt he’s a liar. As soon as he tries to work his way into the subject he is inconsistent and naive for not realizing there could be a problem. Guy can’t win no matter what he does.[/quote]
Ha, sadly, you are right. Poor Sam!
Amen
To me, the way Sam is poorly served is to have the guy who paid the harshest possible price to save the world give a speech to his realistic and fatalistic brother about the space for hope, and have the first trial drain him of hope because he didn’t know it would be so difficult. I have no problem with Sam struggling with his fears, but set something up that would test a man who was willing to go to hell and let it play out. Even if we’re dealing with PTSD from what he’s gone through–show that. Don’t give me Sam realizing from Prometheus he may not survive the trials, as if he was naive about the possible price. There’s no way at this stage Sam is naive about suffering or prices.
I’d love to see why Sam of all people has hope, when he knows how harsh the universe can be. What was the basis of his speech to Dean? Dean was being logical about what the past has taught them. Show me that.
The problem, as always Gerry, is that we aren’t given enough information on Sams motivations. We don’t know what he’s thinking and feeling. It might be fear, it might be realization that he was wrong and there is no “light”, it might be acceptance that he may not survive and he needs to prepare Dean, it might even be hope tempered with reality. I have no idea.
Just like we don’t know if Sam was jealous and resentful of Benny, or trying to protect Dean from being used the way he was…. Or why exactly he didn’t look for Dean or try to find Kevin.
As always, it’s up to the viewer to project their own interpretations onto Sam.
And this is why there are so many arguments and discussions. Makes him a fascinating character, but after 8 years, I’d like to be able to see into his head, for once, and know just what he’s going through.
[quote] . . . but after 8 years, I’d like to be able to see into his head, for once, and know just what he’s going through.[/quote]
Couldn’t have said it better myself! I have desperately wanted Sam’s POV since S5. It would be nice to be told what he’s thinking instead of guessing all the time.
That’s why he needs a friend. If he had a friend, he might actually be able to talk to that person about his fears, desires, hopes, dreams, etc.
[quote]The problem, as always Gerry, is that we aren’t given enough information on Sams motivations. We don’t know what he’s thinking and feeling. It might be fear, it might be realization that he was wrong and there is no “light”, it might be acceptance that he may not survive and he needs to prepare Dean, it might even be hope tempered with reality. I have no idea.
Just like we don’t know if Sam was jealous and resentful of Benny, or trying to protect Dean from being used the way he was…. Or why exactly he didn’t look for Dean or try to find Kevin.
As always, it’s up to the viewer to project their own interpretations onto Sam.
And this is why there are so many arguments and discussions. Makes him a fascinating character, but after 8 years, I’d like to be able to see into his head, for once, and know just what he’s going through.[/quote]
So would I. It is sad that we have to guess on Sam’s motivations. It shouldn’t be that way. He should be able to express them.
Gerry, you have your opinion on Sam and view the events last night as him flip-flopping, losing all hope in a week. No one is going to convince you differently, just like I have the exact opposite view. I do agree that Prometheus was NOT the catalyst for Sam’s comments. Sam was saying it was another example (like Bobby and Rufus) where someone wanted to live, but “the life” had a different outcome.
[quote]I mean, yes, I think Sam is afraid because he’s human, but he also told Dean he would lead Dean to the light and now, he’s seeing signs that he may not be able to do that.[/quote]
Very good point! Sam wants to be there to lead his brother to that light and now realizes he may not be able to do that! This is why Sam needs a friend. I’d love to hear him say something like this!
Poor Sammy!
[quote]The bunker doesn’t seem particularly impenetrable at this point.[/quote]
That is not true. They were still at the motel when Artemis showed up in Prometheus’ room.
[quote]
But I don’t think his prayer got anywhere – the bunker is completely impenetrable from all Supernatural forces, angels included. So I doubt the prayer actually got to Cas. I think the purpose of that scene was to reveal to us Dean’s state of mind – how hard it is for him to let Sam go forward with the trials, knowing it could kill him.[/quote]
I have also though this. Cas didn’t respond, and I doubt he heard any of it.
I thought the brother moments were much better this episode. I agree, Bamboo24, there was definitely some understanding between the guys, even without the words.
Hmm, asking a friend, who has recently been crazy and may turn out to be unstable enough to kill the person he is searching for, for help…where have I heard that plotline before?
[quote][quote]The brother moments didn’t even sit that well. Sam’s hope lasts all of one episode? Why, because he doesn’t know all about sacrifice or the price that may be paid? He was just naive when he was arguing with Dean about hope? Guess that lovely dynamic in “Trial and Error” between the boys was just throw away rather than moving the boys forward.
[/quote]
I took this entirely differently. Sam’s hope last episode came before the spell, remember, before he was afflicted by that light inside his hand/arm. The moment he experienced that pain, you could tell he was shaken up by it. Then he began coughing up blood. And Sam is faced with a catch-22: continue on and save the world, or stop and save himself. You can tell he’s struggling with it – keeps having to remind himself that it’s “worth it.” And you can also tell he’s trying to prepare Dean, in his own way, by gently suggesting – “hey, maybe I was naive to think I could make it through these trials unscathed.” That was a confession if there ever was one. Like a neon sign screaming “I’m Not Okay.” At that point Dean knew for certain that Sam was being affected, was hurting, but he was trying to not freak out about it – trying to let Sam do this on his own. But that doesn’t mean he stopped worrying. I think Dean needed an anchor – needed to believe there was something or someone stronger than himself who could help look after Sam. And who does he have but Cas?[/quote]
I couldn’t agree more w/you, Bamboo!
In the episode where Sam says the spell, I saw Sam greatly affected by whatever happened to him. He says the spells, he falls to the floor in pain, and a light shoots up his arm. He was scared at that moment, but he put on his game face – the best he could – and told Dean he was all right and could handle it.
I thought Jared did a great job of looking frightened but also determined. Since then, he’s been coughing up blood. He’s scared! He’s human. Why can’t he be scared now that the effects of the trials are happening to him?
And he’s probably also thinking that no matter what he wants (which is to survive the trials), he will likely die from doing them. Sam isn’t going to give up at this point, but h was losing some faith, which is fine and normal to me. I love that Dean gave him a pep talk in spite of his growing fears. It reminded me of the time Dean told Sam he wasn’t freaked out by Sam’s visions and that everything was going to be okay, Sam walks away happier, and we see that Dean [i]is [/i] actually very freaked out by the visions.
The boys lift each other up at times! I love it. That’s what family does for each other.
lala2 and Bamboo24, totally agree. I don’t think Sam has flip-flopped and now is “Oh well, I’m dead…” Your points above are IMO spot on. And I want to add Sam has NOT lost hope. His speech was not made void by his sullen emo crap. It’s a natural human reaction when you are coughing up blood, not feeling well—and still have 2 more trials to complete. But Sam will do whatever he can to live–for him and for Dean.
I completely agree, Bamboo23 and lala2.
Dean did share the plan w/Hayley. On the drive over, he told her what their goals were. When they all walked away, she knew she was supposed to walk away too but she didn’t do it.
Hayley was just a moron – IMO – from the moment she was introduced. She had to see Zeus do his thing before it hit her that she made the wrong choice!
I don’t feel she was a moron, she was a desperate mother who decided to take the risk of letting Zeus out to help her son, just as Dean later decided to take the risk of asking Cas for help in watching over Sam. The parallel between Haley and Dean is pretty clear in the ep IMO. It’s about weighing the risk against the potential gain. For Haley it was not worth the risk because all Zeus saw in Oliver was a way to continue to punish Prometheus. We have yet to see if the risk of Dean asking a compromised Cas for help will be worth it or not.
thanks for this speculation. I liked the episode
One thing I want to add is to your comment about Sam offering to take the kid for icecream in the middle of the night. To me that was hilarious!! My interpretation was that the invitation was put in the episode for the sole purpose of showing that Sam is very awkward around kids, has no experience or is uncomfortable with them. Loved how the kid said ‘no’!!!
There are convenience stores that are open all night. International Hoouse of Pancakes are mostly open 24 hours as well as Dennys and various other non franchise diners….like Biggersons.
And we know they all serve ince cream in some form.
[quote]
One thing I want to add is to your comment about Sam offering to take the kid for icecream in the middle of the night. To me that was hilarious!! My interpretation was that the invitation was put in the episode for the sole purpose of showing that Sam is very awkward around kids, has no experience or is uncomfortable with them. Loved how the kid said ‘no’!!![/quote]
Hi mer,
I didn’t take that as Sam being awkward around kids, but rather that was a very awkward situation. The boys father – whom he’d only just met – had been killed, and they were burning his corpse just a few feet away. Sam’s always had empathy, and was simply suggesting a way to remove the kid from an emotional situation.
I think Sam related to how the kid had been thrust into the Supernatural world, and had to grow up very quickly… Related to him having been cursed as a young child, and having to deal with the idea that he was a freak…. and he’d seen a parent killed right in front of his eyes.
All things mirroring Sam himself….. And yet, here Sam was a little unsure how to help Oliver deal with it.
And the fact that the child said “no” showed a) that the curse had been lifted from him, since he hadn’t spoken since it began, and b) that the kid was growing up and facing his new life. Just like Sam and Dean had had to do.
I definitely enjoyed this episode. It’s not a top ten, but it was enjoyable and definitely the best of the gods episodes.
One thing really bugged me though. The whole “you can find fulgarite in any new age store.” Really? Previously, Show made a point of saying how rare it was. So rare that it was in museums and private collections, which is why they had to break into that couple’s house to get it. And if it were that common, you can’t tell me that Bobby wouldn’t have known that. That just really irked me!
And on people saying it was OOC of Artemis to be in love with Prometheus. In the myths, she was goddess of the hunt and was so in love with the hunter Orion (a man) that when he died, she placed him in the heavens as a constellation. So, the love connection didn’t bother me.
BTW, did anybody else think that the guy that played Prometheus looked a bit like scruffy Christian Bale?
[b]Stephanie, [/b]YES, the minute he turned up on screen I thought he looked like Christian Bale when he was in ‘Reign of Fire’. Only I liked this actor’s hair a lot more, he was really rocking the whole messy, wavy hair thing. God, I’m so shallow sometimes lol.
[quote]
And on people saying it was OOC of Artemis to be in love with Prometheus. In the myths, she was goddess of the hunt and was so in love with the hunter Orion (a man) that when he died, she placed him in the heavens as a constellation. So, the love connection didn’t bother me.
[/quote]
Stephanie – Yes, Artemis loved Orion. The only man she ever cared for in the slightest. She also CHOSE to remain the virgin huntress, and in some of the myths, SHE KILLED Orion.
Definitely not one to be dewy-eyed over another guy.
Sorry. That was OOC for her.
It would’ve been more in character for her to protect the females in the room.
But aside from the twisting of the mythology, which I’ve said I had expected, and the other issues (many of which already mentioned here) I really enjoyed the episode.
I think the show probably got a lot of mail the last time when they made a big deal about how hard fulgarite is to find when, in fact, you can get it in any new age store. At least they made it a bit of a joke.
I thought Bobby said last time that it had to be a really big one and that is the reason the broke into those peoples place.
I see it a bit like the bone of a lesser saint (think that’s right…) scene from The French Mistake, occasionally it just doesn’t occur to you that there might be an easier way to do something – it was funny anyway ๐
Hi Gerry,
I think they brought the victims to the new digs because they know they can trust them. It actually sets the victims up to later be used by some ‘bad guys’ to get the location of the digs. But isn’t the new/old location suppose to be the safest place on earth (don’t recall the exact scene verbage). I imagine it is protected from evert moster under the Sun, like Bobby’s panic room x1000. The Men of Letters was probably know to some outside the members in the past. If there was a spin-off show with Henry Winchester and the MOL, I bet weekly we’d have victims who were brought into their world and would find out about the MOL. The ‘bad guys’ would surely be aware of and constantly want to destroy them. It was nice to see Dean’s pride in his family history, as so far we’ve seen (from Dean) Sam is the more instantly natrual fit into the MOL. I think Sam has not changed his mind about wanting to live. Sam will do everything he can to survive, he WANTS to live, that will never change. But remember the speech in Trial & Error happened before Sam completed the 1st trial. Once that happened, he had a physical reaction that no doubt will get worse after each furture trial. Maybe the tablet states whoever completes them will have to give up their life? Kevin has not finished the full translation. So the positive Sam is still positive, but with what happened, and related to the case they just finished, it makes sense Sam would say he will do everything to live, but maybe that will not be the outcome. The writers were not flip-flopping IMO, this is a natural change when Sam really had no idea what if anything would happen to him as he carried out the trials.
Hi Nate. How do the boys know these people will be able to keep such a huge secret? And this location is only as safe as the boys make it. Clearly Artemis could get in once she knew it was there. The MOL of years past obviously kept the secret very very well because no living hunters, even the Campbells, knew of its existence. For John and Bobby and Samuel to have no suspicion and the memory of the society to have vanished once the MOL were dead, the existence of the society was guarded very very well. And Sam and Dean just blew that all to heck for a one-off case of the week.
I hate the portrayal of stupid Dean we’ve been getting lately. Babbling about the MOL to impress a random woman on a case isn’t taking his family legacy terribly seriously.
I don’t think Sam has changed his mind on wanting to live; he’s changed his mind on whether he has a hope to live. That it may cost his life I thought was a given both boys knew. It’s just that Dean accepted that death was most likely and Sam believed they can take their fate in their own hands. He wanted to teach Dean hope. It was lovely, but it lacks punch if Sam’s hope erodes in one episode.
And why would seeing Prometheus’s fate make such an impact on Sam? He’s suffered worse. If he had hope in Trial and Error, I don’t know why he’s lost it now. It makes his speech to Dean seem naive and Dean right in thinking he should do the trials. But then both boys will probably be in a different mind frame next week, since flip flopping week to week seems to be the norm.
Hi Gerry,
The boys bringing anyone to the MOL lair is going to be their choice. I will have to rewatch the parts of talking about the lair and if they were advised to never bring anyone there, but even if that is the case, the boys have never been good at following orders rather than chosing to act on their term and instinct. I do like your quote “the location is only as safe as they make it.” True, but if the boys did not think there was threat, they will bring some to the lair. And technically there are only 2 others currently that know if it.
I don’t see Dean as stupid when talking about MOL. I actually liked his enthusiasm and pride in it. I like he realized it is his history too, not just Sam the brains. I don’t take it as he is using this to impress women. Just my opinion.
Sam has not lost hope. I believe he can see reality AND have hope. And remember, his speech was before any trial was completed. I wanted to go scuba-diving last week, had never gone, and was bragging how awesome it was going to be. I got in the water, freaked out, and reality hit me–not gonna happen today! (Sorry, vacation flashback!). I have hope I am going to train and get in the water, but the reality is it may not be for me. I think it is a natural human reaction to be knocked down a few pegs after the reaction Sam had to finishing the first trial. IMO Sam is thinking in reality, this may end in my death. Yes they knew that from the start, but Sam has hope at the light at the end of the trials tunnel, Dean did not. I think it’s OK for Sam to have a moment of “sullen Emo crap,” he is human. I still believe he has hope, he will always have hope.
I don’t think it was Prometheus’s fate that had a huge impact. Sam also brought up Bobby and Rufus. “The life chose for them.” It was nice to see Sam open up to Dean about that, and Dean to really be there for him saying “Not going to happen.”
Hi Nate! Sam was told by the only surviving MOL to lock the door and throw the key in to protect all that knowledge from falling into the wrong hands. And the boys haven’t even brought poor Kevin to the lair, even though he needs protection and food! Why? I thought it was to keep the place secret. Evidently not. If the boys bring cases of the week casually to the MOL bunker, they are very poor MOL. The place is supposed to be secret.
Dean’s enthusiasm would be adorable, except he’s sharing things that should not be shared with a civilian he doesn’t know. That’s stupid–and I’m so tired of Dean being shown to be a stupid hunter.
Sam freaking out about the reality of the trials to me ignores his history as the guy who jumped into the pit to be tortured for eternity. He more than anyone knows the reality of their situation. The interesting thing about his position in Trial and Error was that he felt hope anyway in the face of Dean’s fatalism. Flip flopping their positions in one episode to me is very poor writing. At least give Sam real set up for losing the hope he said he’d teach Dean, instead of making him look like he never considered it would cost him dearly.
Gerry,
I do recall the MOL lair ‘throw away the key” comment. IMO if Dean and Sam are going to risk the lair, I trust them to do it. They are now in charge of a group that no longer exists, so the rules and processes will not be the same. Technically the boys are not MOL, that group is gone, the Winchesters now get the benefit of knowldege, gained from this defunct group which included part of their family. They will always consider themselves hunters. I would argue that the boys chose their own rules, times are different, they don’t have an obligation to follow any old process. “Supposed to be” no longer applies.
IMO again, Sam was not freaking out, he was sharing some doubts that have crept in, after actually completing a trial. I will never believe Sam has lost hope. Ever. Sam is not flip-flopping IMO. He wants to survive. He will go down swinging, just like they did for the apocalypse.
Nate, to me, it’s not just that the boys are not respecting their family legacy, it’s also that they are not using common sense. Obviously they should keep that treasure trove of dangerous arcane knowledge secret–it’s their ace in the hole.
And if Sam was not freaking out, why did Dean make that emotional prayer to someone he doesn’t even trust right now? It doesn’t make a lot of story sense that Sam has already lost hope, I agree, but there hasn’t been a lot of story integrity this season, sadly.
Sorry, [b]Nate[/b], I enjoyed reading your take on this but I’m going to agree with [b]Gerry[/b] on some of these points:
I thought Dean’s behaviour by ‘bragging’ about the MoL bunker etc to Mrs Prometheus came across more as Doofus!Dean rather than the Dean I like who is intelligent and doesn’t behave like a big kid at the wrong time. (I hope I used ‘doofus’ correctly, I’m not American lol). I like Childlike!Dean but not at inappropriate moments where it’s played just for laughs. Plus, in that scene, Sam’s face as he looked at Dean after Dean’s little bragging spurt, very much came across to me as a sense of “stop messing about, Dean and get back to being serious”. Obviously, your mileage may vary, but that’s how the scene came across to me ๐
I’m also not entirely sure what the brothers are playing at when it comes to who they tell about the MoL and who they show the bunker to. Given that it’s so top-secret, hush-hush, crammed full to the rafters with important stuff, I’m quite surprised at their blasรยฉ attitude to bringing people there. I’m also surprised at their parking outside it too and hope that they at least buy some camouflage netting to cover the Impala ๐
ciar,
You used Doofus very well ๐ IMO though I don’t see it that way. I like doofus Dean–you can be a doofus in a fun, ligjht way and not meant to indicate a stupid person.
I was also not sure about the secretness of the liar, but then I thought the MOL do not exist. There are no rules. They boys can be told “SHHHHH, TELL NO ONE! NEVER LET ANYONE IN!” But guess what, they have the key to the door now, so in Team Winchester fashion, they are going to do what they want. They have no obligation to the MOL, to carry on the tradition, etc. That is NOT to say they don’t respect MOL and all that comes with it, just that times are different. Giving the key to the two people that stopped the Apocalypse–the key could not be in better hands.
FORGOT TO COMMENT–you would think the lair would have a garage, right? I giggle every time I see the Impala outside the lair too ๐
I don’t know why, but the notion of the Impala being outside doesn’t bother me that much. I guess if the bad guys are that close anyway it would only be a matter of time before they got discovered anyhow.
I am of the same opinion that Dean is just kind of proud of being a legacy. Should they have brought them there in the first place, or talked about the legacy?? Probably not, they should be very cautious I think.
Earlier when I said I wished there was a garage for the Impala at the bunker, I was more concerned about weather conditions. Lebanon, Kansas, is right in the middle of tornado alley. Plus it gets like two-feet of snow during an average year. I just want Baby safe, and for the guys not to have to dig it out from under the snow.
Aaah, that’s sweet, Teresa- but now you have planted the idea in my head of a tornado being worked into an episode. That would be awesome.
Was driving through Kansas with a blizzard on my tail a few weeks ago. Really wouldn’t want to live there without a shelter for my car.
As far as tornadoes…the bunker will be a safe place, but who knows what could happen to the Impala! (Don’t worry, I know they’re filming in Vancouver – I just want them to pretend with a little more accuracy.)
That is an interesting subject. What makes a secret society secret? Itรขโฌโขs the secrets they keep or the membersรขโฌโข identity? Or both?
Because nobody knows S&D are MoL, but EVERYBODY knows who S&D are. They being MoL are just one more something that made them even more dangerous. Bad guys should be cursing this, but what else can they do about it?
As for bringing people to the bunkerรขโฌยฆ Well, the boys are not exactly well known for being prudent. They are pretty reckless, actually. I thought interesting Dean acknowledge in the episode that they are throwing themselves blind in those trials. It was the concern of some of the fans: they got themselves only half the tablet, they started the trials without knowing what the other tasks are and they donรขโฌโขt know what will the consequences be, they only know there will be consequences. Pretty reckless. It was the same thing with the Zeus task: the mother was concerned and raised a lot of questions, to what they answered they didnรขโฌโขt know. But they did what they thought they should anyway. Well, they improvise a lot.
Ah, and Kevin said he wanted to be alone to concentrate. S&D would be a distraction for him in the bunker.
I agree Ale, the more I thought about the secret liar and MOL having to remain secret….says who? The MOL are gone. Sam and Dean have the keys now. Giving the key to the two people that stopped the Apocalypse–the key could not be in better hands. If they choose to have big dinner parties or a BBQ here and there, so be it. As long as Dean works the grill.
Plain old common sense would tell them that. If Sam and Dean have no common sense about keeping the lair secret, then they aren’t the best guys to have thekeys and the lair could be in better hands. They finally have an ace in the hole, as well as a family responsibility to keep the ace safe. If they have dinner parties or barbecues or give guided tours, they are behaving like idiots.
Sorry, Gerry, but S&D do NOT use common sense.
Common sense dictates save yourself and your loved ones. S&D risk their lives everyday to save random dudes. By their logic, if saving that family means risking the secret lair, it’s worth it. That’s what Prometheus asked Sam: why were they doing that for him? Why, indeed, they don’t HAVE to. But that’s not why we love them?
Ale–your I agree with your response below.
Gerry, I think the boys have ‘Winchester Sense’. MANY times they chose the direction common sense would indicate NOT to go–but most of the time they are right, and end up winning. If these two can keep the Earth safe from Lucifer, they are sure able to keep the lair safe. You could argue the boys should have never gone to the lair in the first place–WINCHESTERS being anywhere makes that place not safe. The demon/monster world know all about the Winchester boys, and most probably stay as far away from them as possible. Winchester track record is near perfect, odds are a demon/monster/THE DEVIL is going to lose. And to be clear, they are not responsible to keep the MOL going, that is not their family responsibility. MOL are done, gone, no more, have not been for many many years. This is MOL version 2.0, starring Dean and Sam Winchester. They have looked the Apocalypse in the face, and won. I’m not worried about the safety of the lair as long as there in a Winchester holding the key. And if the place is raided and all the books are burned, the boys are back in the same place they were before. Sure, that is a SAD, lonely place with no bath robes, but they are going to be MOL 2.0 on their own terms.
Ale: Sam and Dean have been shown to not only be excellent hunters but also to be able to sacrifice people to win the big picture. They suffer for it, but they do it. They do save random dudes but not at the expense of giving away an ace in the hole which may allow them to close the gates of hell. They won’t willingly allow the forces of evil to get their hands on incredible weapons the Winchesters are now protecting. They make the hard calls when they have to. If they have absolutely no common sense about the batcave, then Garth may as well be doing the trials as them.
Nate, for me, the story has to work on its own merits. I have to believe it, rather than rely on the fact that as the Winchesters are the main characters, of course in the end it will work out. If the journey is unbelievable, then in the end, the boys are unbelievable and the show is unbelievable.
And yes, I do believe the boys considered that they shouldn’t even be in the bunker. They were told not to be in the bunker because of the possibility of the stuff inside getting out in the wrong hands. And I believe they would make a different call and stay there–but only because they intend to do their best to keep the stuff safe. Which I need to see when relevant situations arise.
It was ridiculous to see Dean explaining the MOL to a civilian and actually telling her it’s a secret society. Well, not anymore, Dean.
And I do believe they feel a responsibility to their Winchester heritage. I think that was the point of the key coming to them from their grandfather. It gives them another way to view themselves.
The way I see it, the Batcave is serving Sam & Dean, and not Sam & Dean are serving the Batcave. It is like the tablet รขโฌโ they were รขโฌหwarnedรขโฌโข not to touch it, but did they listen? Nooooo!
The only time I see them sacrificing other people for the common good is when they kill demon possessed people. And thatรขโฌโขs been bothering me because they donรขโฌโขt debate that anymore as much as they should. Usually, they do in the heat of a battle and/or to prevent the demon from telling on them to others. It must continue to be shown as something not good or normal. They must address it more like they did with Kevinรขโฌโขs mother, because sometimes is hard to see the person inside รขโฌโ we only see the demon.
Iรขโฌโขm yet to see Sam and Dean killing innocent people left and right to accomplish something. If they come to a point where they agree to sacrifice a child, for example, in order to close the gates of hell, Iรขโฌโขll have to rethink my love for the boys.
Garth doing the trials makes no sense at all. And I like the show because it is believable.
They donรขโฌโขt have a secret society anymore. Sam and Dean are the secret society. And they are not a secret.
That’s how I see it too, Nate. Sam is human and may now be doubting his ability to survive the trials. I’m not sure why that’s wrong. It’s very realistic IMO.
I agree.
Thanks Ardeo for the great review. I enjoyed this episode so very much. I’ve always loved Greek mythology, so that was a big plus for me right there, although making Artemis pine for Prometheus was not such a great idea. She is one of the very badass Goddesses and would NEVER pine for a man, she turned one of her would-be lovers into a deer to better kill him! Anyhoo, that aside, I thought it was a pretty good filler ep, especially compared to last week. ๐
Dean in a bathrobe with briefs, OMG. ๐ณ He’s finally found a place he can be comfy in. He introduced Sam and him as Legacies expecting an awed reaction. ๐ Loved the guy playing Prometheus, and yes I do believe he was wearing Dean’s clothes, certainly looked like his shirts. Zeus was a good scary. I liked the little boy and the way Sam went to him at the end. Dean praying to Cass to watch out for his little brother. ๐ฅ The shout-out to Bobby. ๐ฅ ๐ฅ I’m really happy that we got to hear Dean say that he knows Sam is going through a rough time with the trials, he’s not stupid, he can see these things. Okay, I’ll stop know, cause I’ll just go on forever.
Last note if anyone is interested in Greek gods. There is a book called “Gods Behaving Badly” by Marie Phillips. It’s about some of the major Greek gods living in our time and how they’ve adapted. It is hilarious. It’s mostly the Olympian gods, Artemis, Apollo, Zeus & Hera. Anyway, it’s worth a good read, you won’t be disappointed. ๐
I appreciate everyone’s input so far. In reading these comments, I wanted to put my own two cents in and PLEASE- no offense with my non-professional assessment but the way I deal with the week to week changes in Sam and Dean’s character, their inconsistent behavior and the simple fact that gloves aren’t used when touching a dead guy’s mouth is that these boys are mentally unstable. Maybe I am being too simplistic but I don’t get upset when I see their strange, uncertain motivations for what ever, I chalk it up as being due to all that they have been through…IMO, they should be thought of as a few fries short of a happy meal.
I forgot to add, they to me are crazy, brilliant, but crazy.
Interesting point of view! That could explain a lot of discrepancies – I too noticed the lack of gloves ickiness ๐
Well obviously! ๐
[quote]I forgot to add, they to me are crazy, brilliant, but crazy.[/quote]
Hahaha, they surely are, both brilliant and crazy! Would you do any of the things they do? I certainly wouldn’t! I would probably be unconscious all the time, due to fainting! ๐
Yep! Though in their defense they actually seem to know it. ๐
One thing I noticed was at the end with the body burning, Hayley is standing there and Dean just puts his arm around her and then raises his chin up like he’s watching over her. That just killed me. I replayed that part a few times. ๐
Thanks Ardeospina. I agree much better than last week. I did still have some of the issues you had, but relieved we’re on an upswing ๐
รขโฌยข [b]รขโฌลHoped the hit-and-run guy got some sort of comeuppanceรขโฌย [/b]Seconded! Then again, I am still hoping that Walt and Roy will get theirs too (dare to dream!)
รขโฌยข I immediately thought of the Greek myth when I saw the liver-eating-eagle, but couldnรขโฌโขt think of the guyรขโฌโขs name…I got as far as รขโฌหP, p, p Pythagorus?รขโฌโข
รขโฌยข [b]The MOL lair [u]must [/u]have garages[/b] รขโฌโ unless they were all able to hop in and out of cupboards (or fireplaces – see Harry Potter ?floo network) with monotonous regularity!
รขโฌยข MUCH better, more believable [b]Sam-bleeding-from-mouth [/b]scene.
รขโฌยข On your [b]bathrobe-related [/b]points ๐ I very much approve too! I like how Dean is now wearing it less like a costume and more casually with his regular clothes.
รขโฌยข I liked the [b]Sheriff [/b]and his zombie-fixation รขโฌโ after all [u]somebody [/u]buys all those National Enquirer (or Weekly World/World Weekly News) copies!
รขโฌยข [b]Jason Bourne[/b] line: Ha!
[b]รขโฌยข Did they leave him alone in the room?[/b] Yeah, this jarred me a bit too – bit of a reach.
รขโฌยข I liked Dean being proud of being a ‘legacy’ ๐ For me twasn’t being dumbed down, just cute ๐ I do take people’s point about sharing the secret of the MOL however…
รขโฌยข I only wondered about the editing/writing a couple of times this week. Once was during the MOL scene with Prometheus etc:
[b]Sam:[/b] It says here he summoned Zeus and found out how to kill him.
[b]Prometheus:[/b] What’s that?
[b]Dean: [/b]Wood.
(Me: Huh?)
I guess Dean had already read that (unlike the rest), but it felt rather clunky to me.
รขโฌยข I missed the [b]minivan[/b]! But liked Dean throwing Sam the Impala keys.
รขโฌยข [b]”Balls!”[/b] Yay, Bobby reference!
รขโฌยข Agree about the whole [b]Hayley-and-Oliver-being-left-with-Zeus[/b] รขโฌโ not great. Believable that she wouldnรขโฌโขt immediately start walking away with them (she is less experienced at these kinds of รขโฌหnegotiationsรขโฌโข and she is also the most desperate to get help for her son), but it would have helped a lot if they had thrown in a line for one of the guys to say รขโฌโขCome on Hayley, letรขโฌโขs goรขโฌโข…
รขโฌยข Interesting point about [b]Artemis[/b] being a man-hater. I know very little about Greek mythology, but some of the commenters above have made the same point. Although someone did also point out that she was in love with Orion at one point?
รขโฌยข [b]รขโฌหDeanรขโฌโขs really invested in Sam living a normal lifeรขโฌโข[/b]. I like this too. And the comments that he made earlier in the season about Sam not really meaning it about leaving hunting, I put down to Purgatory PTSD (it is TOO a thing!) and hurt that Sam had not looked for him. But Dean has calmed down since and thought further about this as evidenced by his comments about wanting Sam to have grandkids and telling Sam to go find his girl.
[b]รขโฌยข I loved the way they handled Dean knowing Sam was hiding something,[/b] but not flying off the handle about it. Perfect. And I do think Dean would still รขโฌหprayรขโฌโข to Cas about it, despite his post-Purgatory doubts about Cas. After all… itรขโฌโขs Sam. And Dean has no other way of doing anything to help his brother. Heรขโฌโขs kind of in the position Hayley was when she let Zeus out…
[b]รขโฌยข A plea from a spoilerphobe: [/b]For those of us who avoid being spoiled like the plague, to the extent that we donรขโฌโขt watch previews, could there be a spoiler alert before any info that is not from the episode itself (I am assuming your last bullet point came from the next episodeรขโฌโขs preview?) If not, I do apologise – just ignore me!
I think there used to be a warning at the beginning of the article explicitly stating that the preview would be included in the discussion. So I regretfully stopped reading the articles, but this also meant I missed out on the immediate reactions and discussions, which are fun and part and parcel of being a fan. This season I was happy to see you had taken off the preview warning and had avoided non-episode spoilers – but then your last bullet…
Overall, this episode was a solid effort for me, the quibbles above notwithstanding. I liked all of the guest stars for once (!) and I think splitting up the Dan Loflin/Andrew Dabb writing team this season is paying off ๐
Did anyone else think Dean putting his arm around Hayley for comfort at the end will grow into something more during the mini-hiatus? She knows about the bunker, she knows they are hunters, she hasn’t seen Shane for 7 years, and [i]Dean put his arm around her![/i] The arm alone would do it for me!
PLEASE CHUCK NO!!
[quote]PLEASE CHUCK NO!![/quote]
I’m chiming in with [b]Nate[/b] on this one. NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! ๐ก
Sorry love2boys
She was written so poorly. First she has the smarts to find Shane, and keep up with Sam and Dean’s thinking, and also adds a few smart thinky thoughts of her own. Then suddenly when Zeus appears, she lets him [i]out[/i] AND she knows [i]HOW [/i] to as well? come on! there was nothing in the storyline that hinted at her knowing how sigils work! Then she keeps her son next to her!!! What the crod. What mother has her child face the most vindictive god known to man. Then OH dear!! he kills the father IN FRONT of the child!!! NEVER saw THAT coming. Nope not Deans type AT ALL!!!!!!
[quote]Did anyone else think Dean putting his arm around Hayley for comfort at the end will grow into something more during the mini-hiatus? She knows about the bunker, she knows they are hunters, she hasn’t seen Shane for 7 years, and [i]Dean put his arm around her![/i] The arm alone would do it for me![/quote]
Ha! With you on the arm, love2boys! And with due respect to ciar and Nate, but I liked Hayley ๐
That is a HORRIFIC idea. Sorry. I couldn’t stand Hayley! She was an idiot. Lisa was better than Hayley and less moronic.
Oh dear. Well, I liked Lisa too if that helps!
Sorry ๐
I didn’t like Lisa for Dean either. I pretty much hated the Dean/Lisa relationship. I just thought Hayley was worse than Lisa.
I did like Ellie though. She and Dean would be cute together IMO.
Hey, [b]magichappening [/b] and [b]lala2[/b], I really kind of liked the survor “psychic” in Lillydale in the Mentalist. She was cute and I thought she had a lot of chemistry with Dean. She was introduced to Dean’s world in a big way in that epi. I liked Ellie too.
lala,magichappening,and love2boys, what about Jamie from Monster Movie?? No one ever mentions her but I thought she had great chemistry with Dean. She was plucky and adapted well to the weird. Sam even liked her. Maybe I am alone in this but she gets my vote.
I LOVED MM. And Jamie was great. Dean needs someone to share funny with. She was funny. Great idea! I like her! Speculating is fun, right?
Right! Thanks.
Hahaha . . . [b]Leah [/b] . . . I called her Casey, but I just mentioned Jamie from MM. She would be good w/Dean.
Actually Casey was kinda cool, but I guess she is off the table being a demon and all. And dead. They did have chemistry ๐
Ellie, was good, but she wasn’t a hunter either. Although I guess her life/soul is still under threat so at least it wouldn’t be a complete “civilian”. But I really think the best match for both boys would be another hunter or someone like Charlie who is at least on the fringes of the life. Someone who understands the risks and the dangers going in and who can take care of themselves to some extent.
Although, I think that any romance should take place basically at the end of the series. Romantic entanglements just don’t fit very well within this show.
Yeah . . . she was okay. That girl Casey from Monster Movie was cool too.
lala
For the life of me I cannot remember who Ellie was?
kaz1, I had to think about it too we someone first said it. It’s the girl from Trial and Error. The one who had sold her soul.
Hoffific idea, I think bad or boring idea is more like it. Hayley was not an idiot. I thought the actress was very good. Hayley was a concerned mother, not an idiot.
Nate.
I wasn’t comfortable with the character’s decision to take her son to go the Zeus summoning. Not at all in fact! What did she expect to happen there? It isn’t rocket science to grasp this might not end well, the poor kid watches his father’s death!!! Maybe idiot is a bit harsh, but I am struggling to find a kinder word! IMO
Also, I mentioned this earlier, but how on earth did she know to release Zeus from the sigil? Bad writing?
The reason for summoning Zeus was to get the child released from the curse (or it was by the time they got to the warehouse anyway). Not to release Prometheus, and not to kill Zeus. Killing Zeus was really Plan B.
The assumption being that the child needed to be there to be released from the curse and also so that Zeus’s better nature could be appealed to.
Zeus doesn’t have a better nature.
It was very dumb to leave Hayley behind when they called Zeus’s bluff though.
eilf
[quote]It was very dumb to leave Hayley behind when they called Zeus’s bluff though.[/quote]
I’ve only watched in once, but I thought it was because they were trying to call his bluff. Hayley didn’t have the smarts to realise that? What your take on it
oops I see you also thought it was to call his bluff. Then what of Hayley’s smarts?
Well, as I see it, she is a civilian and a mother, they ought to have realized she might have thought they were actually going to leave and not help her son.
I suppose it happened in the moment – they couldn’t let on to Zeus that they were bluffing obviously so one of them should have made sure Haley left too. It was a mistake, but stuff happens ๐ It was a better plan than the one with Henry Winchester at least…
Loving the avatar eilf
Why thank you ๐ It’s my mother’s cat – she is called Snowball.
Snowball? That’s funny. She is a beauty.
I guess it snows charcoal in the Ire!? But I salute you on your computer skills, wouldn’t have a clue how to catch my own avatar. I have a cat that I could use I suppose, but he is truly evil, and may snack your darling Snowball. But I’m guessing black cat = black magic or is this a stretch?
She could be the twin of my little girl kittie!!
Thanks all ๐ she might be a doppelcat E? She certainly is a wimp and not half as magical as she thinks she is Kaz.
Maybe a dopplecat? My little Gwennie is a 6 1/2 pound scrappy little fighter with an over developed hunting instinct. She’ll chase anything!
E
Not if my Greebo evil Captain Cat was chasing Gwennie!! no contest ๐
He purrs to entice you, then shreds you with callous disregard to the import of intact skin, then saunters off flicking his tail in satisfaction. Evil never found a better host
Granny weatherwax would be proud!
Ah that’s a male cat for you…fickle things! Loving one moment, disemboweling you the next with no warning. Gwenn is quick though, I’m not sure Greebo could catch her. My big (and ultra whimsy) Monty can’t catch her, though he does try.
E
Bet you don’t know who Granny Weatherwax and Greebo come from?
Nope! Thought it was YOUR cat?! I thought you were smack talkin’
E
Nope. Read Wyrd Sisters by Terry Prachett. About 3 witches (ddare I mention witches). Granny weatherwax and Nanny Ogg who has the most evil cat in the world called Greebo. Love his books.
[quote]I’ve only watched in once, but I thought it was because they were trying to call his bluff. Hayley didn’t have the smarts to realise that? What your take on it[/quote]
They were definitely calling his bluff. I agree w/you, [b]Kaz[/b]! I thought Hayley understood that but [i]assumed [/i]she knew better than the prof’ls who deal w/this type of thing on a daily basis.
But if she didn’t even realize they were just bluffing, then she’s even dumber than I originally thought.
For me, she seemed pretty stupid. Her child dies on a daily basis and then comes back to life the next day, but she doesn’t want to believe what the boys are telling her!?!?!? Why not? It was no crazier than the tale of her kid who comes back to life each day.
I found all of her questions annoying. Look, they are trying to help you. You have no other person offering help so just accept the help.
Dean tells her the plan in the Impala, and what does she do? She goes and frees Zeus. Why in the world would she expect him to live up to his part of the bargain? He cursed her BF to die everyday . . . . there’s clearly nothing compassionate or nice about this man!
Answering as a mother…
If my child was suffering – dying – daily, and I was staring at the face of the one being who could stop that, could Fix it…..
And then was asked to “follow the lead” of two guys I’d just met – who were seriously into some weird stuff – and just walk away from him?
I don’t think I could do it.
I think I would’ve stayed right there… tried something else. Anything….
To save my child? Yes, I’d have released him, if I thought he’d fix it.
They’d have had to just pull me physically away. (which is what they should’ve done, but neither of them is a parent, so…)
She may have been stupid and screwed it up, but I think I would’ve, too. Anything for my child.
Hi love2boys, Leah, Nate, Kelly, kaz1 and lala2 ๐ Rejoining the conversation belatedly: Yup, I really liked Ellie (THAT’S what the girl who managed the ranch was called!), Jamie from Monster Movie, Casey from Sin City, the survivor psychic from The Mentalists, I concur…hmmmm….who else – shall have a quick look.
I wasn’t keen on Jo, Bella or Anna I have to say, but apart from that I think I was pretty happy with all of Dean’s ‘women’, including Lisa and Hayley. I mean I hv to confess I didn’t even mind Cassie (her MOTHER on the other hand!). Um I liked Layla, Tessa, Carmen, Pamela, didn’t have a problem with the Amazon woman, the original Haley from Wendigo and there are probably others I am forgetting ๐
I agree with you lala
Just mentioned to Nate that I find it difficult to reconcile a mother who takes her kid to a Zeus summoning, (only to watch his father being murdered) under the ‘concerned mother’ column.
kaz1,
Sam and Dean chose to bring mother and son. The plan was for Zeus to remain in the seal. Remember one of the first things Zeus said was “release me from the seal,” that is how Hayley very easily knew to break the seal to free Zeus. She did that, because as a concerned mother, she chose to trust Zeus when he said he would help her son. Concerned mothers do not always make the right choices (she’s not a Winchester ๐ ). Dumb move on breaking the seal, but her only concern was saving her son.
Nate
You’re right, parents do the darndest things, and I can understand that. I just don’t understand why she panicked though. When Dean and Sam were leaving, it was with confidence that Zeus couldn’t go anywhere, well my take on it anyway. She had all the bargaining power she needed, so why not get her son out first before she released Zeus! That is what I would have done. Releasing Zeus whilst her son was around was extremely dangerous, especially the hatred he had for the father. She was written as having the smarts, so how was this showing concern for her son. Bad writing.
Tks for the ‘phone in’ thing. Interesting, I have never considered J&J’s efforts to be below par. What was Chrisgranny alluding to?
I LOVED this ep by the way Nate, it really had that old style Sam and Dean back again. The camera work was great
kaz1,
Your scenerio sounds much better, but then there would not have been all the big drama ๐ Maybe she thought if she didnt act right away, the boys would not have let her deal directly with Zeus (which was not a good idea, very true). She was in a panic and reacted, but did the wrong thing. She SHOULD have let the boys control the situation.
I understood it that the son HAD to be there, he was one of the ones who was cursed after all. I don’t think Haley had a choice in the matter. It’s not like Zeus, with his diminished powers in modern day could have healed the kid if he was out in the car….
Hey Nate and kaz1, I read chrisgranny’s comment yesterday and I think you guys misunderstood her. She was referring to a comment she read and was saying she didn’t think they “phoned it in”, that they do good work even if they are burned out. At least that’s how I took it. ๐
Leah
I went back and checked and you’re spot on Leah! Chrisgranny loves the boys tooo much to ever think they were phoning in. I had to ask Nate what it was ๐ณ Americans are strange ๐ how did ‘phoning in’ ever come to represent a poor performance due to burn out! Explain that one to me Leah. And jumping the shark took me a while too! ๐ I love that one though and I have used it many times since.
I agree chrisgranny, I am amazed at the level of insight some posters demonstrate on this site. My mind boggles at the level of history and knowledge they have. I have to rerun the eps to get some understanding of where they’re at then whoooosh they have moved on to some other equally intense subject, which has me getting up change DVD’s again. Up and down up and down like a whores draws, and I’m ALWAYS on the back foot. ๐
Hey Kaz1, It is funny, we have so many sayings that when you stop and think about it, make no sense at all. I THINK phoning it in refers to someone calling in their work from home intead of actually going in, thus making a half-hearted effort. I see you have some too!! Bye the way, what the heck is a “crod”? ๐
Ok you got me there ๐ A crod is nothing more than an invention to stop swearing f expletives on my side of the pond. What the chuck is catching on fast tho ๐
We call them F – bombs!!! ๐
Thanks, [b]magichappening[/b]! I liked Hayley right up until the moment Dean put his arm around her! ๐ Just kidding! She reminded me somehow of the bartender in the episode – can’t think of the name – where Sam puts his soul/mind back together.
Ha! I know what you mean love2boys ๐ I know who you mean about the girl for Sam too, tho I remember liking her,I can’t remember her name either. I have to confess I liked Amelia as well – apart from the first episode she was in where I thought she was really abrasive…But for me it’s nice to see either of the guys find people to connect with ๐
OK, I LOVE Dean in jammies or undies and a bathrobe, but is Sam just researching and sleeping on the library tables? Seriously, the guy is hurting and has to be sleeping a lot, but where? Would like to see his digs and cozy wardrobe, too.
Am I the only one ,I haven’t read all of the other comments, but this episode does seem to me to tie into the season and not just be a stand alone. Much better on second viewing. I few things I noticed.
When Hayley said she had even hired a P.I. to look for Shane Dean gave Sam a look. (did you have anyone try to look for me Sam)
Dean enjoying the new digs what a life they have had why not enjoy something nice for a change while you can it will probably go to shit soon enough.
Sam and the icecream the way I looked at it as the writer’s saying see Sam just wants to get away from this and the kid is more grown up or has more wisdom in saying he wants to stay. Parallel Dean trying to get Sam to see the risks now Sam is seeing them too and starting to have doubts after all his bravado
The scene where Dean mentions they are M.O.L it seems like Prometheus just doesn’t know what he is talking about and Sam is just giving him his usual bitch face.
If you could interchange characters with the present realm people with the Gods. We have Prometheus and the boy (Sam) Zeus SPN’s God , Artemus Dean or Castiel their anger and loss of faith in God. Am I nuts.
Also Dean’s speech at the end or prayer to Cas who else is he supposed to talk to,to express his fears and his love for his brother. They are still not talking to each other in the true sense of the word.
As to Hayley I thought she was very attractive not in a stunning fashion but a believable kind of beauty, I thought she played her part well and the fact that she now knows about the SPN and the Batcave does make me wonder if she will not make another appearance down the line. By the way loved her highlights in her hair. I thought her and Dean standing together around the fire his arm around her was a nice moment and they looked good together and could see her as a love interest for Dean, altho the comparison with Lisa and Ben with Hayley and Oliver is a little obvious.
I don’t see Dean as being dumb-down in this episode. To me last episode was just an aberation and should go up in smoke.
Last but not least the whole argument about no myth-arc for Dean or he is just the side-kick.
Remember that we are our brother’s keeper, almost every religion seems to hold this view. Also Dean is the caretaker and I see no problem with this scenario it is an honourable thing to be. He is also the saviour to me. He is a dick at times that’s OK.
Phoning it in comments. Now into it’s 8th season I am sure there is a little burnout, and sometimes these 2 guys will have to reach deep to keep it real, and I think they are doing a standup job.
I must admit I have never got into the deep analysis that some of you do and I would find that to be a real detriment to me enjoying the show or any show for that matter I just take what I get except in the exception of a really lousy episode like last week, any other show I would have turned it off. It’s like taking pics all the time to show your event or cataloging your life it takes away the moment for me , I rely on others to do it for me. Why I like to read the episode analysis on here.
Dean/Jensen can still rip my heart out. Sorry I am just such a Dean girl I cannot help myself. Now to go back to the beginning to see Dean in the robe again.
Never have Jared or Jensen phoned anything in. Ever. In the worst scripts ever, they are 100% in. In fact their performances in the lesser episodes are some the the hard to find highlights.
not sure what ‘phoned in’ means?
‘Phoned In’ means the actors give a performance where they don’t care, they are just ‘going through the motions” or reading the lines with no feeling at all.
Wow so many great comments! I really enjoyed this episode, especially thought Zeus was a great villain. I share some if Gerry’s misgivings about the sudden renewal of Dean’s trust in Cas but I think it might be able to be explained by taking seriously what Dean said about prayer being like begging. No doubt Dean sees the gravity of the situation and is prepared to beg and take risks if it might provide an opportunity to help Sam. It might not be the most logical thing but this is Dean Winchester we are talking about!! (Though I suspect it was also included to remind us that Cas is out there somewhere and to expect to see him again soon!)
There were odd things to do with timing (I have felt that about almost every episode this season) and some of the conversations were like something out of anime where the characters are really just speaking to tell you the story. How did Sam get the idea of titans in the first place? And why did they have to include that odd scene where he suggested going to get ice cream sundaes (in the middle of the night) – it just made him look daft. But I loved the scene where Sam was up against the wall being all sassy and Dean’s brilliant facial expressions. Jensen was great – especially since it’s usually Jared who does the amazing facial acting.
I liked Hayley and I wouldn’t mind seeing her again; yes even as a love interest. Is it a gay thing or was Prometheus incredibly fit? Beautiful eyes, cute face, tangled hair, beard *goes off into inappropriate fantasy world*. Ahem… Anyway I was really hoping he would survive and maybe be around in the future (I mean ffs the writers kept the boring man-witch alive last week!).
I think the ice cream thing could have been written a little better, but we really don’t know how late it was. And you can get ice cream someplace 24/7 in the US. I think if Sam had said, “Hey you want to get out of here. Go get some ice cream or something?” It would have worked a little better.
[quote]Is it a gay thing or was Prometheus incredibly fit? Beautiful eyes, cute face, tangled hair, beard *goes off into inappropriate fantasy world*. Ahem… Anyway I was really hoping he would survive and maybe be around in the future (I mean ffs the writers kept the boring man-witch alive last week!).[/quote]
Definitely not a gay thing. That guy was FINE. And I’m not even a fan of beards. Yeah I wouldn’t have minded him sticking around either.
No no not just a gay thing! ๐
While I am, and forever more will be, a Dean girl ๐ you are not alone in the appreciation of a well-fitting Henley! Prometheus was pretty easy on the eyes, despite our staring into the Winchester double sun!
I think Sam thought of the Titans because of the eagle-eating-the-John Does-liver, the multiple resurrections and the story about the mountain in Europe. Kind of breadcrumbs to the hypothesis of the week. Too thin?
And I think the ice cream scene was to make Sam awkward, but also because maybe he identified with the kid and wanted to make some sort of gesture from a normal life for him (maybe something Sam would have appreciated when he was a kid and in a similar scenario). Plus to get him away from a gruesome scene. I liked it cos it was so awkward but it was nice to see Sam connect a little with a kid – can’t think of him having done that since Jesse, the AntiChrist…it’s usually Dean – tho Dean struck out too at the motel room door when they first met Oliver (although there is NO WAY Dean would have casually displayed a corpse to people in that amateur way come ON, writers!)
I liked Hayley too and I agree it was a shame Prometheus had to die and James (who I would not notice unless I fell over him) got to live. Such are the vagaries of fate! Oh and the scene against the wall with Artemis, I was trying to think who Dean’s facial expressions reminded me of – I don’t usually enjoy the physical humour I have to say, but on rewatch it suddenly clicked who he reminded me of: Jack Sparrow. Thoughts? ๐
magichappening
[quote](although there is NO WAY Dean would have casually displayed a corpse to people in that amateur way come ON, writers!)[/quote]
I know sometimes it is just plain funny. Didn’t you find it odd that there is a window to an arbitrary corridor in the morgue where anyone can see Prometheus. I get that you need to id bodies, but isn’t that done where the bodies are stored? I just felt the window jumped out coz it was necessary for the scene to work.
kaz1,I don’t know how realistic it is (I’ve never had to ID someone-thank God). But I know I’ve seen similar rooms on shows many times that are set up just like that. Like both are part of the morgue, but one room is set up with a window for ID purposes. So if that is a contrivance, SPN didn’t create it. ๐
And I guess on Dean bending and showing Shane is just supposed to be a brain fart on his part.
Rooms like this are common to allow family members to identify a dead loved one, but at the same time keep the family out of the actual morgue itself. Typically these rooms are in a secure part of a facility and “civilians” must be escorted there. You can’t just walk by it and see random bodies tho.
Hi love2boys, Leah and lala2 ๐ Yup, I really liked Ellie (THAT’S what the girl who managed the ranch was called!), Jamie from Monster Movie, Casey from Sin City, the survivor psychic from The Mentalists hmmmm….who else – shall have a quick look.
I wasn’t keen on Jo, Bella or Anna I have to say, but apart from that I think I was pretty happy with all of Dean’s ‘women’, including Lisa and Hayley. I mean I hv to confess I didn’t even mind Cassie (her MOTHER on the other hand!). Um I liked Layla, Tessa, Carmen, Pamela, didn’t have a problem with the Amazon woman, the original Haley from Wendigo and there are probably others I am forgetting ๐
Hi magichappening- Some good choices- Yeah, loved Tessa, although her true appearance was a little gnarly. Layla, she was pretty great, alas probably departed. I liked the actress that played Cassie but didn’t really see much chemistry there despite the love scene ๐
Hey magichappening, leah and lala2: Casey the demon is dead, shot by Sam with the “new” Colt, therefore probably not a good match for Dean since she is most sincerely dead. Who was Layla? Can’t place her… I liked all the other women you mentioned. Keep up the good work matchmaking!
Hi love2boys, Somewhere around here in my first post on the subject I mentioned that she was probably off the table due to her being a demon and dead. ๐ We were playfully kicking around names of people who Dean had chemistry with. Layla was the woman who got passed over by the evangelist who went on to cure Dean in FAITH. She is most likely dead also. But at least not a demon ๐
Arad
Prometheus over Hayley any time of day or night!!
Hayley didn’t do it for me am afraid.
You know I would love to see Dean happy, but I just can’t see Dean going down that road again, especially with a “civilian” and her seemingly vulnerable child. After all the pain he felt he caused Lisa and Ben.
I agree with you that Dean’s role of watching out for his brother is honourable. Sam is a grown man and chafes at it sometimes but I think he needs Dean as much as Dean needs to be needed.
I can’t think of many actors that can tear your heart out as much as Jensen. Except maybe Jared.
oops, meant for chrisgranny.
So it appears to me that many fans are overlooking a subtle but possibly important plot event in this episode. (at least in relation to the boys arsenal of monster killing items.) ready for it?… Artemis’ arrow! Early in the episode while Sammy is doing the lore rundown he casually mentions that Artemis’ dagger/weapons can kill gods and titans. (possibly important) And then Artemis makes it a point to remove the arrow and toss it aside before she takes Zeus’ body away. Are you telling me that the boys didnt snag that and stick it in the Impala’s trunk? Maybe it ties into the God Trial story? (on Hell task, One Heaven Task and one Pagan Task?, even if unrelated it could be a valuable plot point in the future as a “Surprise Pagan God, Now you’re Dead”, kind of weapon. —End brain vomit
p.s i just re watched the episode and Artemis leaves the bow too! O.o (and Sam is acing like hes under someones influence or he has unexpected God knowledge.
Good observation Sammo
I could never understand why S & D never collected the angel stabbers/knives/swords or whatever they are called. They would have had enough to smite any angel left in existence.
I’ve often wondered why they don’t collect more weapons from enemies as they go along and then use them in later eps. Would be great
I was wondering if anyone else noticed that in Dean’s room, when he is praying to Cas, that the picture of him and Mary was no longer propped up on the light where he placed it several eps ago. Guess the PTBs missed that little detail.
Or maybe Dean just takes the photo with him (in his wallet) when they go out on a job… so he always has his Mom watching over him :sigh:
It a good list, but none of those things scream Sam to me.
I was alluding to comments I saw somewhere critical of the dog episode and how bad it was and that mabe the boys felt it was stupid to. I thought it was here but maybe somewhere else.
I for one never for a moment think they phone it in exactly the opposite . In fact with episodes like they have had lately I imagine they have to work even harder. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.
chrisgranny, I think it was on this site maybe, just another thread. There was a discussion on the Misha as a regular cast member thread about the fear that the J and J would get burned out if they kept up the same pace. I think it was me who mentioned that when that happened on other shows, the actors eventually ended up phoning it in. I never suggest that either had done this. Just a fear that they COULD eventually get worn down if this pace continued.
So if anything it was my fault, not yours.
Not a ruffled feather in sight. All smooth and preened chrisgranny. Ah but the brain is another story ๐
[quote]Could there even have been memory foam on Dean’s bed? Isn’t that an invention from the last decade or two?[/quote]
Yes it’s a relatively new invention. I think most of us assumed he purchase it and brought it there.
There really isn’t a lot personal items in Dean’s room either. Just the picture and some albums and weapons. But it just struck me that none of us could come up with something that was uniquely Sam. We do know quite a bit about Dean’s tastes and there are several objects associated with him. But it’s feels wrong that after 8 seasons we know next to nothing about Sam.
sam’s knowledge about greek gods seemed perfectly normal to me. i even get how he guessed about artemis and her love for prometheus. the whole scene with sam and dean against the wall, dean was focused on zeus and the kid, sam was focused on artemis.
did anyone else question the part dean questioned? how sam knew the kid was hardwired for the curse. when dean asked sam how he knew that, sam had this look on his face ….it was like he didn’t know how he knew, he actually seemed suprised, either that or he couldnt say how he knew…it was just something that stood out to me.
also something else made me take notice. it was the term dean used referring to oliver’s curse. he didn’t say it was inherited. he didn’t use the term fated or destined. he used the term hardwired. dean asked sam how he knew the curse was hardwired into the kid….the angels used the same term regarding their programming…hardwired.
i just thought that the use of that word was significant. of all the words they could’ve used. it could be that after all these years paranoia has set in…but i’m not so sure…
i guess that reverse exorcism just popping up in sam’s head spur of the moment when he supposedly ran from hunting for a year still makes my ass twitch. ๐
[quote]did anyone else question the part dean questioned? how sam knew the kid was hardwired for the curse. when dean asked sam how he knew that, sam had this look on his face ….it was like he didn’t know how he knew, he actually seemed suprised, either that or he couldnt say how he knew…it was just something that stood out to me.
also something else made me take notice. it was the term dean used referring to oliver’s curse. he didn’t say it was inherited. he didn’t use the term fated or destined. he used the term hardwired. dean asked sam how he knew the curse was hardwired into the kid….the angels used the same term regarding their programming…hardwired.
i just thought that the use of that word was significant. of all the words they could’ve used. it could be that after all these years paranoia has set in…but i’m not so sure…
i guess that reverse exorcism just popping up in sam’s head spur of the moment when he supposedly ran from hunting for a year still makes my ass twitch. ;-)[/quote]
nappi, Sam’s look of confusion or whatever struck me too and I also immediately thought of the reverse exorcism thing. But I just figured it was wishful thinking on my part. I keep hoping that there is something more to Sam’s story.
I didn’t notice the hardwired part but that does seem like an interesting coincidence.
I love this idea! I really hope that there is something to all these little head scratching moments. I guess that I would prefer that if there IS supposed to be subtext to pick up on that they’d make it just a teeny weeny bit more obvious… i mean, i dont want to be spoon fed or have anvils dropped on my head or anything, but if these moment are actually some kind of clue to an underlying story they’re downright microscopic!
i think there is a secret we don’t know yet either.
there are a few things that bother me about the first half of the season…besides the obvious ๐
1. the mystery guy watching sam
2. sam’s convoluted flashbacks
3. sam’s knowledge of a reverse exorcism when he supposedly hadn’t been hunting for a year.
4. sam’s keeping silent when dean was throwing digs at him for half a season…i get his silence the first couple of times…but the whole time…unrealistic imo.
5. sam’s inconsistent comments about believing dean dead, then saying he didn’t know if he was dead or buying a taco.
6. sam’s reaction to dean’s question about how he knew the kid was hardwired for the curse. hardwired, the same word they used to describe the angels by the way. i also think sam knew things this eppy that even dean questioned…
i usually don’t, but this eppy, i took notice when dean stayed outside of the motel room when sam went in to do the research. so who’s to say that sam was on the computer and wasn’t talking to an angel? just speculating of course.
i don’t think sam didn’t look for dean. it’s my belief that sam did look, couldn’t find him and as a defense mechanism convinced himself he was dead. i think the dog was put in front of sam’s path because he was so upset while driving that he was actually going to hurt himself. i think the angels put riot in sam’s path. i also think that at some point while sam was with amelia, naomi came to him and told him she could help dean, who at this point, like i said, sam convinced himself to be dead. i think naomi told sam that she could get his brother back but she wants something from him in return. she wants sam to do the trials. i think he made that deal.
i don’t doubt that sam’s speech to dean about him seeing the light at the end of the tunnel is true. i also don’t doubt that sam wants that for dean. i think his speech came from his heart, but i also think that there was another reason sam wanted to do the trials and that was because he made a deal to do them.
this whole perception idea….carver indicated a what if sam didn’t look scenario….but he never said it was the actual scenario….
Nappi I hope at least some of that comes true otherwise I will probably feel kind of cheated. Especially about how Sam came to be where he seemed to be psychologically when he met Amelia and the shadowy figure and even more the oddness of the boys’ meeting at the cabin, which no matter how often I watch it strikes me as so strange.
Couldn’t agree more Arad. And agreeing with nappi, the shadow figure has yet to be explained so unless it is shown otherwise, something more HAS to be going on. I have said this before but if JC & Co. can resolve these things in a cohesive fashion I will bow down to his genius.
[quote]Arad
Prometheus over Hayley any time of day or night!!
Hayley didn’t do it for me am afraid.[/quote]
For me too, I kinda liked her but not [i]that[/i] much. ๐
Nappi, I could really get into this theory(granted I would take almost any theory that explained Sam’s behavior-but it is a pretty good one). It would actually also explain why Sam automatically distrusted Benny. If they told Sam that they feed one of the creature the info on how to get Dean out, but didn’t realize the creature would be piggybacking out with him, he would have reason to distrust Benny. And wouldn’t be able to explain to Dean why because then he’d have to fess up to what he’d done.
But I was kinda leaning towards the idea that Sam didn’t know he was being manipulated by the angels. Just like Cas didn’t, but I could get on board with this.
[quote]Nappi, I could really get into this theory(granted I would take almost any theory that explained Sam’s behavior-but it is a pretty good one). It would actually also explain why Sam automatically distrusted Benny. If they told Sam that they feed one of the creature the info on how to get Dean out, but didn’t realize the creature would be piggybacking out with him, he would have reason to distrust Benny. And wouldn’t be able to explain to Dean why because then he’d have to fess up to what he’d done.
But I was kinda leaning towards the idea that Sam didn’t know he was being manipulated by the angels. Just like Cas didn’t, but I could get on board with this.[/quote]
i forgot to post that in my thread. i think naomi did mind manipulation on sam. i don’t think he remembers making a deal, but his subconsious does…which would explain the inconsistencies in his behaviour, knowing things and not understanding why (like the reverse exorcism and how the kid was hardwired with the curse) ,and it would explain his automatic distrust of benny.
nappi815, oh yeah then I kinda love that. Sam was acting so weird I could totally see subconscious fears and also manipulations being at play.
I can’t tell you how much I hope you’re right. I keep telling myself that something like this is up. But the majority of people do not seem to agree so I end up thinking it’s wishful thinking. So happy that there are a few others like me. It helps hold out hope. ๐
I hope they will do that, but frankly, it may be too late. They are moving on to endgame this season and Sam not looking for Dean is over. I have the sick feeling we are never going to find out about Sam after he lost Dean. If we do, I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts we won’t hear Sam tell it. We may get Naomi monologueing about how she manipulated Sam to think he didn’t look for Dean, but I’m pretty sure we will see what Sam did from anyone’s POV EXCEPT Sam’s, because Sam doesn’t get a clear, explicitly stated POV>
i don’t think it’s too late, especially if carver is saving a big reveal for the end. i don’t even care how we find out, as long as we find out. i was kind of hoping that meg would spill the beans. somehow she found out about the angels going to sam to close the gates of hell. she has been missing for awhile. who really knows? or maybe since cas gets these flashes of memories, maybe at some point sam will too.
there’s more than one way to go for sam to reveal or it be revealed that sam did in fact look for dean and there’s more to this story than we know.
i find the very fact that this whole entire season doesn’t make sense in so many ways quite deliberate, and i can’t help but shake the feeling that all of our perceptions are being messed with by carver.
i just refuse to believe that the man who gave us mystspot, and avsc would deliberately try to make sam look bad, bring up issues that don’t make sense, at least to me, all for the sake of contrived drama. then just to drop those issues and not even deal with them….. for what?as a story what did that accomplish? in my opinion, for the most part, all it did was upset many many many people……
i have to believe carver was distracting us with all this melodrama so he can give us all a holy crap moment in the end…..the alternative is worse…that he is indeed the crappiest showrunner, at least imo, that this show has ever had.
i’m all for the holy crap moment and if he does this,as i pray he does, then i will humbly have my cherry dr. pepper with a nice serving of crow….. ๐
nappi, you are my new hero! That is what I kept saying that there is no way the guy who wrote some of my favorite episodes could be this bad at characterization and give such a horrible storyarc to a main character. But so many people have either tried to explain away the idiocy or say that they are deliberate sabotaging Sam’s character. Very few seem to believe there is still a possibility of a plot twist.
But S4, it wasn’t revealed to the audience that Sam was drinking demon blood until ep16 and Dean didn’t find out until 20. And we didn’t find out Castiel was in cahoots with Crowley in S6 until ep 19. And both those season had 22 episodes this one has 23. So really one of the next couple episode could easily have a big reveal. Please, please let there be a big reveal.
I will happily eat the a huge helping crow right along with you, though I will drink reg Dr.Pepper. ๐
Yeah, another Dr. pepper fan!! I hope, as you do nappi, that JC can pull off a holy crap moment and tie all this stuff together. I still might not think he is the worst showrunner ever, even if he doesn’t, but I am pulling for a big reveal of what was really going on all these months. I think JC has done a lot to improve the show and fix some of what was ailing it the last year or so. If he can make sense of the unexplained mysteries of the early episodes I will tip my hat and toast him with DP. I’ll pass on the crow, I hear it is tough ๐
name=”Leah”]Yeah, another Dr. pepper fan!! I hope, as you do nappi, that JC can pull off a holy crap moment and tie all this stuff together. I still might not think he is the worst showrunner ever, even if he doesn’t, but I am pulling for a big reveal of what was really going on all these months. I think JC has done a lot to improve the show and fix some of what was ailing it the last year or so. If he can make sense of the unexplained mysteries of the early episodes I will tip my hat and toast him with DP. I’ll pass on the crow, I hear it is tough :-)[/quote]
๐ ….how bout some humble pie instead? like dean , i like pie, even humble pie as long as it’s topped with whipped cream. ๐
i will admit that i do like the second half much better…i like that they use s1 music…i like the talking between the boys, i feel the heart is back…i like the mytharc story…i like dean calling sam “sammy”, love the references to the past…
the only thing missing and the one thing i really really really want/need is for sam to be able to come clean about what was/is going on with him regarding his apparent belief that dean died….otherwise dean’s resentment just gets buried….and if i’m understanding correctly, this year was supposed to be about the boys’ maturing and strengthening relationship….well it’s starting to strengthen but it won’t be able to mature until they handle things in a more mature way, which in this case is talking and listening to ea. other about what was bothering them for 10 eps ๐ฎ
i still think we’ll get there. ๐
it’s just something too big to be fussed over and then dropped…
it’s like that old joke….how do you leave an idiot in suspense?
๐
Oh I have loved the 2nd half. And really if they have a big reveal for Sam I will probably be back to loving the first half. But right now it is too frustrating to watch.
Hi again nappi, Hmm humble pie , ok, I’ll eat anything between two pie crusts!! I meant to say JC made big improvements in the show this year. The last season or two was ailing IMO. Now having said that I also think the second half is so much better than the first half in retrospect. I was enjoying it at the time (well not the boys being at each others throats) but looking back I thought it was all going to come to a nice resolution and it just petered out. Big old hoo ha and then things are good. So YES PLEASE bring on the “holy crap moment”. ๐
If there is a big reveal how about we all send JC some Dr Pepper …. he will never understand why ๐
That is hilarious!! Just random cases of Dr. Pepper showing up with no explanation. It’s a brilliant idea!
HA HA I’m on board. Was there any doubt? ๐
You know I’m in. Share the address, and he’ll get dozens of cases. ๐
The postal rate would be crazy high but it would be worth it. No reveal-No Dr. Pepper. ๐
I feel like I may have created an monster … :-* Ah well, but only if it is a GOOD reveal that ties in most everything!
On a similar point did you all see the sending badges to get Sheriff Mills back idea?
In reality the idea might be impractical. We’d probably set off some huge security scare and they would call in the bomb squad or Homeland security ๐ Still it would be fun to do but if the feds come I might have to give you up. They would have to waterboard me first of course :-)))
Leah or InLeah HA!, I don’t like pain so I doubt I make to the waterboarding. I’m afraid I’d break pretty easy. So we better have a plan. I suggest we say it’s for Jared. And the tell him Misha did it as a prank. Really we’re doing them a favor. I doubt with their kids they have the energy for their own pranks.
Or we could go with eilf’s plan which is also less expensive and unlikely to end up in a waterboarding situation or an unintentional Jared/Misha feud.
I frequently type crap in front of my name and don’t notice it right away. I find it endearing. Also when I double post. See below. I really need to go because I am laughing so hard I can hardly type ๐
Guys how did we get from soda to waterboarding? ๐
Leah, I checked (I’m obsessive like that). Off Amazon it would be 10 for a case and 21 for shipping. HAH!
But I agree eilf if I’m paying that much for shipping I want a FANTASTIC reveal that ties most everything together.
I saw it on Jim Beaver’s twitter. He asked what about her almost boyfriend. ๐ I would love both her and her boyfriend back. I just don’t see how we get Bobby back though ๐
You all are hilarious (I am not admitting that I just looked it up on Amazon too). Truthfully, as the nuts for ‘Jericho’ thing showed, it is just a pain for the offices if you send ’em bulky things but we could send random Dr. Pepper stuff – like cards or stickers or something which would be just as daft and as confusing (which for me is the fun bit!). ๐
Let’s all think on that, something symbolic of DP. How about a singing telegram with a guy dressed as a DP can singing “I’m a Pepper, your a Pepper, wouldn’t you like to be a Pepper too?”
Let’s all think on that, something symbolic of DP. How about a singing telegram with a guy dressed as a DP can singing “I’m a Pepper, your a Pepper, wouldn’t you like to be a Pepper too?”
I’LL DO IT! I’LL DO IT!. I KNOW THE WHOLE SONG AND EVERYTHING. I totally am not trying to find an excuse to go on vacation and stalk the writers or the actors I mean sometimes JC has to go to YVR sometimes, right? So if I happened to see him AND J and J well them’s the breaks. I’ll make the sacrifice since I like you guys so much.
And I find it endearing too. ๐
OMG Kelly, you are great!
There’s a song ???? ๐ (says the non-soda drinking foreigner)
Kelly your dedication to the cause is just amazing, you make SUCH sacrifices for us!
It’s from the 70’s or 80’s. I believe there was a commercial with a guy in rainbow colored roller skates. Singing
I drink Dr Pepper and I’m proud. I used to stand alone in a crowd. But if you look around these days. There seem to be a Dr Pepper craze. I’m a Pepper. He’s a Pepper. She’s a Pepper. If you drink Dr Pepper you’re a Pepper too. Be a Pepper Drink Dr. Pepper YAY!
I totally did that from memory. I’m a very sad person. And I’m sorry eilf that you have been deprived of this cultural monument. It’s probably why you didn’t see the very logical steps from soda to waterboarding. It’s SO obvious.
Chuck dammit! The bosses pile on the work for a couple days and when I get back here, I’ve missed all the interesting conversations. And there’s no pouty lips emoticons, either.
I’d be happy to send Carver some Dr. Pepper related stuff. Not really a fan of it myself, but I’m willing to make the sacrifice ๐
oh Kelly, eilf, leah, I swear when I get to the US later this year, I am going to try a Dr. Pepper. It’s bound to disappoint to be sure to be sure (for you eilf) by now, this brand is so famous it needs its own thread. In fact it should be in the credits right behind Jensen’s name.
Whats with the something con that Amy is attending? It seems to be a big thing and the fans can meet the actors? I see there is a thread where fans can meet eachother. Is this common. Probably showing my age now ๐
Girl, if you don’t know about the cons you are missing half the fun ๐ Go on to youtube and type in ‘Jared’s Train story’ or ‘Misha’s CV’ (my two personal favorites) and then lose about 3 days as you realize how much stuff there is (not that I have done that, no).
The ‘Vegas Con’ (which I think is the one you mean?) is in Las Vegas this weekend coming – there should be video of it fairly soon after (though there isn’t always because people are not supposed to film) and you can follow on twitter live as well
Those are two of my favorites too. I also love the one the girl tells Jensen he Kanye Wested her. She also had Misha and Jared in stitches when he walked up. And the one where Jared is talking about the c0@ksock. Or when he sings the states song while Jensen looks on proudly. I swear Creation is making a mistake not letting people openly film them. Watching those is what convinced me to go to a con (I wanted to see J and J of course but I figured it was just since autographs and things). I saw how much fun everyone was having and now I would go to all of them if I had the money. Most I can get away with is probably 1 a year.
For pure J&J silliness I loved them playing with the big screen behind them. Very entertaining! Don’t remember which con.
Link on the shallow thread for you Leah ๐
Ah, the cocksock story, a true classic… absolutely brilliant. Gotta give props to the woman who asked the original question and made the most fantastic response ever. I’ve never seen Jared so embarrassed and pleased. He was positively tickled. If you haven’t seen it, it’s on Youtube under Jared Padalecki Cocksock… from the Boston Con 2011.
OOh, and since we are talking about Con videos check out “Jared and Misha Baby Signing Time” It’s another classic.
All of these are also my favorites! Have you seen the one where Jared thinks Jensen is going to throw his hat into the crowd and gets all cute and pouty? ๐ The expression on Jensens face is so funny
I don’t think so. I just tried to find it but couldn’t. ๐
Here you are. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qQGuwXHLQs[/url]
Just checked it out, hilarious!! I had missed that one.
Jared’s reactions-priceless. I saw “Jared and Misha Baby Signing Time” before, also one of my favorites. I have so many I can’t even remember them all. Hours of entertainment.
Thank You, eilf! That was so adorable I know I had seen part of that con before but somehow I missed that. I seriously could watch them for hours. They are a show unto themselves. SO cute together! I could watch them playing off one another for hours. And have.
Here’s a few of the ones listed for kaz1
The part I’m talking starts at around 5 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJH21y2WJ-s&list=PLA359553F49F6D478
This one starts at 2:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fNiKhzsW0g
Misha’s resume
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj4kn-RADME
This is making want to get in my car and drive to Las Vegas. I would it I could afford it.
I moved up a little it was getting cut off.
Kelly, eilf, leah, E. Thank you so much for this! This is such an amazing site!! ๐ So far I have watched Misha’s resume. I thought Jensen was meant to be excessively shy!! Do Jensen and Misha get on outside of the set? I didn’t know Jared and Jensen were friends off set too! Sweet!! You see ALL these questions AND you guys know I am trying to do masters right???!! I have an assignment to get out Thurs. Big chucking chance THAT’s gonna happen now that a whole new world has opened up.
Ps it sucks being 9 hours ahead. I am so behind on all your discussions, NO FAIR
once again thanks sooo much guys, going to have hours of fun
Now, kaz, you shouldn’t believe everything they said
on The French Mistake. ๐
Jared and Jensen are really good friends off set,
probably why they’re so believable as brothers
on-screen.
Did you know they’d never even met before doing
SPN?
๐ You shouldn’t believe ANYTHING they said on the French Mistake…
When they were first working together on SPN the guys shared a house, they have said at conventions that they consider each other brothers, they have backed each other up in barroom brawls (well one brawl anyway), their families are friends.
Misha isn’t like his character on TFM at all, though he may be a little cracked, can’t deny that.
If all or any of this is faked then … well they really ought to be up for Oscars is all I am saying …
All this con talk has made me have to go back and rewatch them. I guess I know how I’ll be spending the mini hiatus.
Oh you are not alone. I remember a chocolate and nut bar ad once which asked the question ‘What has a hazelnut in every bite?’ and I swear kelly half of England used to shout “squirrel shit” at the tv. Hilarious
[quote]It’s from the 70’s or 80’s. I believe there was a commercial with a guy in rainbow colored roller skates. Singing
I drink Dr Pepper and I’m proud. I used to stand alone in a crowd. But if you look around these days. There seem to be a Dr Pepper craze. I’m a Pepper. He’s a Pepper. She’s a Pepper. If you drink Dr Pepper you’re a Pepper too. Be a Pepper Drink Dr. Pepper YAY!
I totally did that from memory. I’m a very sad person. And I’m sorry eilf that you have been deprived of this cultural monument. It’s probably why you didn’t see the very logical steps from soda to waterboarding. It’s SO obvious.[/quote]
i remember him..his name is david….something. he was in an american werewolf in london. i heard because of that movie he couldn’t do the commercials anymore because he was naked in it….rumor or fac i’m not sure? it was a catchy tune though…actually enjoyed that commercial.
I completely forgot that was the same guy! And I love American Werewolf in London. His name is David McNaughton.
Kelly, I went to You Tube and watched the “vintage” Dr. Pepper commercials with David McNaughton. I think you should too! After all, you will need to brush up on the nifty dance moves for your singing telegram.
Yeah they only did the French Mistake jokes BECAUSE they get along so well and that isn’t really typical in long running shows like this. I agree they deserve every acting award in book if they are faking.
Here’s a couple more because I couldn’t resist.
Talking about Jared saying “Your Welcome” to a fan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlHIXCAwDps
Talking about making Misha laugh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hkGYB9F5oQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXZMweCLVFg
Jensen wearing a Jared shirt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IufjqmJwvqc
Here’s one from Paley fest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmDJ7DqJWTk
Nappi! et tous Dr. Pepper lover? ugh.
Love, love, love this! If something like this is going on it would really help pull all these disparate things together, even that annoying one off comment Sam made to Dean about maybe Dean would be better off hunting alone… that still sticks out to me as a “huh?” moment.
Maybe the figure outside the house was Naomi? That would make the most sense if this subplot turns out to be true.
nappi would you mind if I copy your comment and take it to another forum, telling the others it is from you and from here?Because I can’t show them exactly cyour post in links! So this would be easier.
Your scenario would actually save this season for me. Many things unanswered and “convoluted”-like you said. It would really make S8 whole for me, and also rewatchable regarding the brothers!
[quote]nappi would you mind if I copy your comment and take it to another forum, telling the others it is from you and from here?Because I can’t show them exactly cyour post in links! So this would be easier.
Your scenario would actually save this season for me. Many things unanswered and “convoluted”-like you said. It would really make S8 whole for me, and also rewatchable regarding the brothers![/quote]
hi shadow,
i’m actually quite honored that you would want to copy my comment…hell i’m happy you read it. ๐ miss you over at supernatural.tv forum…enjoy reading your posts as well. you should come back…i usually just stay in the sam forum…i ramble on end over there as well, just ask lala, ๐ over there my handle is annan.
guys, i am a pepper that is true….but i still think cherry coke tops them all. ๐
anyone here going to the con in nj?
You are there when I was there too? I was comfortable at SPN.TV till at some point me and others got attacked in Sam’s thread for talking Sam, and saying good things about him (this happened already 2 years ago) I would love to read the Sam thread atleast again, and I thought there were interesting, lovable, “coming from the heart” comments! But then I decided to let delete my account because of what I already mentioned! How do you make it -reading through posts without getting hurt by the comments?
Your scenario is hopeful!
And would serve in the end to re-establish Sam as a caring, loving brother again (that he is for all we know, but you know what I mean right?)
[quote]You are there when I was there too? I was comfortable at SPN.TV till at some point me and others got attacked in Sam’s thread for talking Sam, and saying good things about him (this happened already 2 years ago) I would love to read the Sam thread atleast again, and I thought there were interesting, lovable, “coming from the heart” comments! But then I decided to let delete my account because of what I already mentioned! How do you make it -reading through posts without getting hurt by the comments?
Your scenario is hopeful!
And would serve in the end to re-establish Sam as a caring, loving brother again (that he is for all we know, but you know what I mean right?)[/quote]
i’ve been at supernatural.tv since at least s2, probably earlier. i’ve read your posts often. we often agree. i stay in the sam thread even though i love both boys. i usually root for the underdog and i always found sam to be the underdog. i stay clear of the dean forum over there as it can be quite hostile. i just don’t feel i can talk about dean in there without getting my head ripped off. the sam forum can be pessimistic at times, but i don’t find it hostile. i do my best to raise hopes though…
it’s not like we’ve noticed only subtle things going on with sam, and even dean for that matter. what i’ve noticed is that it’s the obvious that we all seem to agree on being aware of. that in and of itself makes me think there’s more going on here. ๐
as for meg, this is just my take. seemed to me that yed was trying at this point to open the gates of hell so ruby and lilith can be released and start breaking seals. meg was in allegiance with yed, but i got the feeling at some point she stopped caring about the task at hand and just wanted revenge on the boys..probably because they sent her back to hell.
YED said Meg was his ‘daughter’ – not sure how that works … I think the Meg and Ruby storylines aren’t really connected at all. Certainly I think Meg wasn’t planned with Ruby in mind, though they retconned when they introduced Ruby that there was a connection between Sam’s powers and the ability to release Lucifer and then be Lucifer’s vessel. That would make YED connected to Lucifer (or Lilith at least).
Ps. don’t mention Dr. Pepper to E
Too late! and CHERRY Dr. Pepper to boot! double blech
E, I am very willing to join your side of this discussion. I don’t like Dr. Pepper, either.
Another heathen with faulty taste buds!!! ๐ ๐
Yes, yes I am! Heathens FTW ๐
It’s vile stuff isn’t it? ๐ก
E and PaintedWolf, you are both clearly out of your minds.
It is the nectar of the Gods, I say. THE NECTAR OF THE GODS!
I’ve heard of the coke wars but wow, this is a whole ‘nother thing isn’t it?
Hey E, don’t put your blasphemous words in other people mouths ( with defective taste buds)!! ๐
I was watching season 1 again as one does during these breaks and it hit me that Meg found Sam before Ruby did, and was wondering why this was. Now I thought Ruby had Lucifer’s ear, and seeing as Sam was SO important to Lucifer being his vessel and all, why did he allow the YED to interfere with his most prized possession. Why would Meg have the smarts over Ruby I was wondering? any suggestions out there?
kaz1, after I got off on a tangent I realized I probably just needed to write the last paragraph. So feel free to skip the rest.
The way I always saw it was that there were a whole bunch a players of the board. And they all had different info and different goals within the plans. Lucifer wanted certain things set it place before he could be raised. YED knew the ultimate goal was to raise Lucifer. But the first step in the plan was to release the demons (this was the plan Meg was apart of IMO) so that there was an army in place to fight the angels. He was supposed to find the one to set them free and then lead the army.
I’m not sure YED knew that Sam would be Lucifer’s vessel as well originally, but I think he began to get that indication when Dean sold his soul to bring Sam back. I think the all the angels who had knowledge of the plan and Lucifer began to see the beauty of it. That this had to be destiny at play. Because Dean ended up breaking the first seal (I believe until that moment they pegged John for the role) and Sam was all set up to break the last. Lucifer definitely and maybe YED realized that this was how it was supposed to be.
(I don’t think it’s clear if any of the demons knew Dean was also Michael’s vessel. Clearly not all of them did because Meg was looking for Michael’s sword in 5×1.)
So Lucifer set Ruby (first by appealing to the warrior and seducing him, especially with the idea revenge and saving the world) on Sam killing Lilith and he needed to drink gallons of demons blood to do it, which would send to down a dark path from which the believed he would not recover as well as prepared physically to be Lucifer’s vessel.
And I think the pretty well established, Lucifer’s vessel, unlike the rest of the angels, wasn’t a bloodline thing. Since as far as we know, Nick was no relation to the boys. So I think Lucifer, had the YED corrupt the possible candidates for Lucifers vessel. And the weed out the weak or the ones he couldn’t corrupt. And the winner who was strong enough to survive would release the demons, lead the army and then Lucifer assume he would be prepared to take him on as a vessel. That was the generally plan. But when Sam came into play Lucifer and YED to some extent saw another layer.
I think both the angels, including Lucifer, believe heavily in faith and things following this one true path. So when Sam was the last survivor of Azazel kids and Dean sold his soul and could break the first seal. And especially when he found out Dean was Michael vessels, he probably believed everything was aligning just how it was supposed to. Two brother as the vessels of two brothers. IT HAD TO BE SAM. Because it was too perfect not to be. The had to be the path that would lead him to his victory.
I think the angels in charge came to believe it was the one true path as well. They just believed in a different outcome. I don’t think the angels were convinced until everything started aligning on such a beautifully symmetric path. But once they were on board they were going to force the path to run its course, even if there might be more malleable options, like Adam. Because they believed things should run as they were fated to, in order to assure a win but also so simply because that was how it was supposed to be.
Same with Lucifer, he had another option as well in Nick(though he would be even more reluctant because he wasn’t as strong without true vessel. This might have been a factor with the angels too.)But he didn’t really pursue the ultimate battle until he had Sam, because that he what he believed was supposed to happen.
So to answer you question after 50 paragraphs. I think Lucifer doesn’t respect or trust the demons so he only gave each of them the info needed to carry out his plan. Also I got the impression that Ruby was one of the demon released from hell when the opened the hell’s gate.
Kelly, you have such a good handle on this and express it on anther level completely. You must be related to Sam as you have a case of the smarts
Awwww. That’s what comes with spending WAY too many hours watching and analyzing. And I’m sure many people will find flaws anyway.
Just for that I will attach Jared’s train story. (actually I can’t believe I didn’t attach it before) It’s a can’t miss.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSXpSa6dXYY
Although I don’t think Lucifer’s vessel was necessarily a bloodlne thing, I do think it was a genetic issue. Just like some people carry the gene for say hemophilia, all hemophiliacs aren’t related, but having one member of a family carry the gene makes it more likely that it will appear in other family members. What I think Azazel targeted were families with the “archangel vessel gene”. Azazel got very little information when he contacted Lucifer after killing the nuns. “Find me a special child,” is not a road map, it is a general direction. I always thought that Azazel knew he working to raise Lucifer, knew the approximate time frame for getting Lucifer out and just hit every archangel gene carrier he could find and make deals so that he could give the demon blood to their children to prepare them for Lucifer and probably contaminate them for other archangels. Then he figured he’d pit them against one another and may the best vessel win. Nick was in the wrong age cohort so he didn’t get the DB. The rest of the psy kids were potential vessels for an any archangel and Azazel believed that the intended one would win the trials. Crowley’s gathering all the prophets to try and get them to read the tablet worked the same way, although unless Kevin was dead, they couldn’t take over. IMHO demons think alike. Get all the potential candidates and then weed them out until you get a winner.
I could see that. That he picked the potential vessels because of something he saw within the mothers. And Nick still being around because he was the wrong age group makes complete sense.
I definitely think he had a “let the best man win approach”-he basically said that, I just wasn’t sure if he knew the winner would just open the gates, lead the army and kill Lilith or actually be the vessel as well. I’m really have no issue with either as far as the YED is concerned.
And fathers. He made a deal with the boy who was being abused and the boy’s father died in a farm accident, so it wasn’t only girls.
True.
Persyowner & Kelly
Grr I keep on getting timed out super grrrrr!!!
It just seems odd that Sam was so perfectly lined up with Dean to be the brothers that were destined to battle on earth (as Kelly says above). Then there must have been a god plan; as Gabriel says “like it is in heaven, so it shall be on earth” or some such. So if there was then how come Lucifer wasn’t in on the skinny? Unless he was cast out before.
I am also having problems with tying Naomi in that she is being sold as one of the big dealers in heaven, so why then is she not dealing with Sam and Dean some other easier way? Why is Cas her only option? Also it has already been said that Cas must go to Dean whenever he is being called, and we now know he didn’t appear when Dean spoke to him directly. Now surely Naomi has the lowdown on when Dean calls Cas (she always interrupted Cas and called him back to heaven when he was talking to Dean before remember?). So either Naomi has lost control over Cas, or Cas is spying again. All this doesn’t make sense anyway coz he prays to Cas in the batcave, which I thought was angel proofed anyway!
I know my thoughts are all over the place, I don’t have time to clean it up, so I hope you can read through the clumsy wording and read my thinky thoughts! ๐
So far the only reason we know that Naomi is working in/for heaven is because Naomi has told us that she is. Cas said he had never seen the part of heaven that Naomi is in. Naomi can obviously control angel and possibly other memories. She can affect the actions of angels. But the only thing we have that makes her a servant of heaven is her word, and I don’t know that we can trust that.
Very interesting observation Percy, Haven’t thought that she might not be a heavenly creature! Opens up many possibilities.
Hang on didn’t Samandriel say something about her? can’t remember what though!
Here’s the conversation
[quote]
SAMANDIRIEL
No. You can’t take me back there, Castiel.
CASTIEL
Why not?
SAMANDIRIEL
You don’t understand. I told Crowley things รขโฌโ things he shouldn’t have known. He got to our coding, our secrets รขโฌโ secrets I didn’t even know we had!
CASTIEL
What secrets?
SAMANDIRIEL
Heaven, Naomi.
CASTIEL
No. W-who’s Naomi?
SAMANDIRIEL
Who is รขโฌโ listen to me. Listen to me closely. I’ve been there. I know! They’re controlling us, Castiel!
[/quote]
Samandriel also said Crowley cracked his code, which makes him sound more like a machine than a sentient creature. It is possible that Naomi is in Heaven, but we simply don’t know enough about her. She can obviously control angelic memories, so what Samandriel believes to be true may not be true.
I agree percy, I think will have to see how it plays out to see how Naomi fits. She is NOT untrustworthy. And it is only the only proof we have that she is an angel is that she is so powerful.
I