Let’s Discuss: Looking at Supernatural after #Thinman
This has been a very controversial season. Many of us have very deeply held and often differing opinions, So I’m starting this thread so we can talk about them here.
All the differing opinions are being expressed in the episode review threads, and they often overtake discussion of the episode itself. So this is the place to take all of those opinions.
The rules are pretty basic. This is pretty much an open forum. Absolutely NO bashing of other posters. As Alice said in the Bitterness Thread no Sam vs. Dean stuff. I know Sam vs. Dean is a little hard to define, so I’ll keep it simple. No ripping Sam to build up Dean, or vice versa. No blatant character attacks either. It’s inevitable that the brotherly relationship is discussed, but just keep those guidelines in mind when posting.
I hope this will keep the episode threads clear of negativity and conflict. That way those who only want to discuss this episode can do that and those who want to talk about the entire season and get very enthusiastic can do it here.
If this is a success, I will try to post a similar thread after each episode.
Thank you Percysowner, this is a great idea!
I hesitate to dip my toe in the water even with your guidelines but there is a lot to discuss about the brothers. I can love Sam while disagreeing with another poster’s view of the storyline or vice versa. It wouldn’t be very interesting to me if one brother was completely right & the other was completely wrong. I love the gray areas in Supernatural.
I think the brothers may need to start a discussion on common ground with a fundamental fact: they will always come to the other’s cry for help. It’s almost instinct with them. Then they can venture out to what that means for each of them and whether they need limitations on that.
Is this the kind of discussion you mean Percysowner?
Thank you Percysowner, this is a great idea!
I hesitate to dip my toe in the water even with your guidelines but there is a lot to discuss about the brothers. I can love Sam while disagreeing with another poster’s view of the storyline or vice versa. It wouldn’t be very interesting to me if one brother was completely right & the other was completely wrong. I love the gray areas in Supernatural.
I think the brothers may need to start a discussion on common ground with a fundamental fact: they will always come to the other’s cry for help. It’s almost instinct with them. Then they can venture out to what that means for each of them and whether they need limitations on that.
Is this the kind of discussion you mean Percysowner?
[quote name=”mary9930″]Thank you Percysowner, this is a great idea!
I hesitate to dip my toe in the water even with your guidelines but there is a lot to discuss about the brothers. I can love Sam while disagreeing with another poster’s view of the storyline or vice versa. It wouldn’t be very interesting to me if one brother was completely right & the other was completely wrong. I love the gray areas in Supernatural.
I think the brothers may need to start a discussion on common ground with a fundamental fact: they will always come to the other’s cry for help. It’s almost instinct with them. Then they can venture out to what that means for each of them and whether they need limitations on that.
Is this the kind of discussion you mean Percysowner?[/quote]
This is fine. I just wanted to get the fighting out of the episode threads.
[quote]Thank you Percysowner, this is a great idea!
I hesitate to dip my toe in the water even with your guidelines but there is a lot to discuss about the brothers. I can love Sam while disagreeing with another poster’s view of the storyline or vice versa. It wouldn’t be very interesting to me if one brother was completely right & the other was completely wrong. I love the gray areas in Supernatural.
I think the brothers may need to start a discussion on common ground with a fundamental fact: they will always come to the other’s cry for help. It’s almost instinct with them. Then they can venture out to what that means for each of them and whether they need limitations on that.
Is this the kind of discussion you mean Percysowner?[/quote]
This is fine. I just wanted to get the fighting out of the episode threads.
Looking foreward to the conversations.
Looking foreward to the conversations.
Ok I’ll give it a shot. I saw a gif on tumblr about Sam. The gist of it was every time Dean (or Cas) brings Sam back from the dead a little piece of Sam seems to break off. I think Sam is running out of pieces. That is why death seems more and more like the better option.
The parallel between Ed/Harry and Sam/Dean wasn’t totally the same. What Ed did I thought was kind of worse. I get that Ed didn’t want to be alone so he sabotaged Harry’s relationship with his girlfriend but it wasn’t the same for Dean really. Sam was going to die not run off and live some happy life. In both cases Harry and Sam chose to turn away from what they wanted to follow heir friend/brother (out of pure trust). Now before I get killed for this I just want to reiterate again Sam was tricked as was Harry, they would never have agreed with the plan. Dean is the one at fault here. I just thought the parallel between Ed and Dean was a little unfair. Harry wasn’t going to die. Sam was. In both cases for Ed and Dean things kept spiraling more and more out of control until there just didn’t seem to be any way out. Again the parallel wasn’t quite the same. Ed was going to lose Harry’s friendship. Dean was being told Sam was going to die. For both Sam and Dean you threaten one with death the other loses his head. And yes I agree there were many chances for Dean to tell Sam the truth. But I really don’t believe that Gadreel was ever going to let that happen. I think that was why Gadreel was so proud of he fact that he played Sam so well in the storage room. Dean was never going to be able to tell Sam the truth. After watching this episode (3rd time) I really don’t know what Sam is going to do. I think Dean is really worried also. He knows he f***ed up. And he really doesn’t know how to make it right. We all know what we want him to do but that doesn’t mean Dean knows. And now it looks like the MOC is going to finally get going so I don’t know if the brother issues are going to be put on hold for now or what. Maybe Sam will tell Dean that he will see the Abbadon thing through but then he is out. We shall see.
Ok I’ll give it a shot. I saw a gif on tumblr about Sam. The gist of it was every time Dean (or Cas) brings Sam back from the dead a little piece of Sam seems to break off. I think Sam is running out of pieces. That is why death seems more and more like the better option.
The parallel between Ed/Harry and Sam/Dean wasn’t totally the same. What Ed did I thought was kind of worse. I get that Ed didn’t want to be alone so he sabotaged Harry’s relationship with his girlfriend but it wasn’t the same for Dean really. Sam was going to die not run off and live some happy life. In both cases Harry and Sam chose to turn away from what they wanted to follow heir friend/brother (out of pure trust). Now before I get killed for this I just want to reiterate again Sam was tricked as was Harry, they would never have agreed with the plan. Dean is the one at fault here. I just thought the parallel between Ed and Dean was a little unfair. Harry wasn’t going to die. Sam was. In both cases for Ed and Dean things kept spiraling more and more out of control until there just didn’t seem to be any way out. Again the parallel wasn’t quite the same. Ed was going to lose Harry’s friendship. Dean was being told Sam was going to die. For both Sam and Dean you threaten one with death the other loses his head. And yes I agree there were many chances for Dean to tell Sam the truth. But I really don’t believe that Gadreel was ever going to let that happen. I think that was why Gadreel was so proud of he fact that he played Sam so well in the storage room. Dean was never going to be able to tell Sam the truth. After watching this episode (3rd time) I really don’t know what Sam is going to do. I think Dean is really worried also. He knows he f***ed up. And he really doesn’t know how to make it right. We all know what we want him to do but that doesn’t mean Dean knows. And now it looks like the MOC is going to finally get going so I don’t know if the brother issues are going to be put on hold for now or what. Maybe Sam will tell Dean that he will see the Abbadon thing through but then he is out. We shall see.
I’m sorry, but I think Dean does know how to make it right, he just won’t because then he has to admit he was wrong.
I’m sorry, but I think Dean does know how to make it right, he just won’t because then he has to admit he was wrong.
Jo1027 I don’t know that it is because Dean is too stubborn as much it is that he doesn’t think he did anything wrong. That is the growth for Dean. To see that just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.
Jo1027 I don’t know that it is because Dean is too stubborn as much it is that he doesn’t think he did anything wrong. That is the growth for Dean. To see that just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.
Well Cheryl I, for one, see things much the same as you. I just wanted to add a few thoughts of my own. A lot of people want to see Dean swing from the rafters but as much as I think what he did was wrong, I can’t take his motivations completely out of the equation, much as I didn’t take Sam’s past motivations out of it when he did some things many thought were wrong in the past. People are getting so incensed that Dean hasn’t apologized yet even though it was shown how devastated he was over the fallout of his actions! Somehow that (the not apologizing) is being read as not caring about what happened to Kevin or not caring about Sam enough to apologize. IMO the ‘I would do it all again’ just meant to say he would save Sam’s life. Right now Dean is hiding behind that! If he REALLY was all cocksure and confident that he was completely in the right he wouldn’t be so depressed. He would just tell Sam to get over it. I believe he knows how completely he screwed up. But this is Dean. It is not going to happen instantly. Can’t we give him benefit of the doubt before we go despising him? Who knows if the MoC is affecting his thinking? Even if we take that out of the equation, some of the stuff Sam said knocked him back. He is still processing the ‘not brother’ stuff. Now I am NOT knocking Sam here, he said what he felt at the time and he was very angry. No issues there for me but this won’t be an insta-fix and it shouldn’t be. Dean will come around. Sam would not still be around, I think, if he thought Dean didn’t really give a crap about him, the death of Kevin, or the rest of what happened. Dean needs to admit it to himself first. As I’ve said before, I could be completely off base.
Well Cheryl I, for one, see things much the same as you. I just wanted to add a few thoughts of my own. A lot of people want to see Dean swing from the rafters but as much as I think what he did was wrong, I can’t take his motivations completely out of the equation, much as I didn’t take Sam’s past motivations out of it when he did some things many thought were wrong in the past. People are getting so incensed that Dean hasn’t apologized yet even though it was shown how devastated he was over the fallout of his actions! Somehow that (the not apologizing) is being read as not caring about what happened to Kevin or not caring about Sam enough to apologize. IMO the ‘I would do it all again’ just meant to say he would save Sam’s life. Right now Dean is hiding behind that! If he REALLY was all cocksure and confident that he was completely in the right he wouldn’t be so depressed. He would just tell Sam to get over it. I believe he knows how completely he screwed up. But this is Dean. It is not going to happen instantly. Can’t we give him benefit of the doubt before we go despising him? Who knows if the MoC is affecting his thinking? Even if we take that out of the equation, some of the stuff Sam said knocked him back. He is still processing the ‘not brother’ stuff. Now I am NOT knocking Sam here, he said what he felt at the time and he was very angry. No issues there for me but this won’t be an insta-fix and it shouldn’t be. Dean will come around. Sam would not still be around, I think, if he thought Dean didn’t really give a crap about him, the death of Kevin, or the rest of what happened. Dean needs to admit it to himself first. As I’ve said before, I could be completely off base.
Thank you leah d I know this is not a popular opinion but Dean is not the villain here. In some ways he is just as much a victim as Sam. He was deceived and betrayed as well. He just can’t see how Sam being alive is a bad thing. And Sam can say they are not brothers but any time Dean is in trouble or even if Dean gets out of Sam’s sight (yeah right going off on a hunt alone without backup) it shows how much Sam cares.
Thank you leah d I know this is not a popular opinion but Dean is not the villain here. In some ways he is just as much a victim as Sam. He was deceived and betrayed as well. He just can’t see how Sam being alive is a bad thing. And Sam can say they are not brothers but any time Dean is in trouble or even if Dean gets out of Sam’s sight (yeah right going off on a hunt alone without backup) it shows how much Sam cares.
For me, Dean is sentimental and impulsive, doing what he feels like is the right thing without articulating what that is. Sam is more cerebral, and tries to come up with a clear ethical system that he thinks everyone should follow. And the thing is, either one of these approaches to life can put you in the wrong. To be fair their both somewhat wrong in differing ways. And they’ve been pulling away from each other as a result. I’m interested to see how it turns out.
For me, Dean is sentimental and impulsive, doing what he feels like is the right thing without articulating what that is. Sam is more cerebral, and tries to come up with a clear ethical system that he thinks everyone should follow. And the thing is, either one of these approaches to life can put you in the wrong. To be fair their both somewhat wrong in differing ways. And they’ve been pulling away from each other as a result. I’m interested to see how it turns out.
#8- That’s the thing I always see, the devotion they have for each other. No matter how mad they have been at each other, the love always shows through. No matter who is right or wrong, they instinctively protect each other and panic at the thought of the other dying.
#8- That’s the thing I always see, the devotion they have for each other. No matter how mad they have been at each other, the love always shows through. No matter who is right or wrong, they instinctively protect each other and panic at the thought of the other dying.
i’m not trying to hang dean from the rafters but i am also not willing to give him a free pass for what he’s done. I am also totally aware that love was a motivator. we are talking about a lifetime of dean making decisions for his brother and not having faith in him. this isn’t just something that happened this season, this has been going on for sam’s entire life. it’s time for sam to be able to decide for himself what’s right for him. it’s time for dean to start trusting in sam and to treat him as a grown man. sam is his brother not his child.
i’m finding it very hard to swallow that dean can’t figure out what to do to make it right. I’m not so sure that gad was never going to let sam go . it doesn’t really matter either way. the point was dean trusted an angel instead of his own brother from the start. instead of putting faith in sam’s decision, he instead feared sam’s decision and thus made sam’s decision for him. but I get it, dean wasn’t going to let sam die. but if dean had put his trust in his brother instead of lying to him for months and months, if in fact it’s true gad wouldn’t have let sam go, dean would’ve found out a hell of a lot sooner. trusting in sam might’ve saved kevin or at the very least kevin might not have died by sam’s hands. a lot of things might have turned out differently if dean had trusted in sam in the first place. :-*
I really refuse to believe that dean is ignorant and I don’t believe he doesn’t know what to do to make it right. he knows what he did wrong. and if he can’t manage to figure out for himself what to do to make it right with sam…all he has to do it ask…sam, I know I broke your trust. I know what I did that hurt you. what can I do to fix this? that’s not so hard. and here’s something else he might want to try…saying he’s sorry or if he can’t say it, at least acknowledge how much he hurt his brother, because as of right now all dean has been doing is wallowing in his own guilt and shame.
I know i’m a broken record, but it think it’s relevant. in Lucifer rising, the moment sam found out he’d been played and realized what he’d done, when he realized he should’ve listened to dean, he looked dean straight in the eye and said he was sorry. he apologized after too and tried to talk to dean about it but dean shut sam down. he didn’t want to talk. sam never wallowed though. he first feared that he couldn’t control his addiction and feared for dean’s safety. he believed he was a danger. but when he realized he could control it and it didn’t control him, he called his brother and wanted back in. he wanted to fight by his brother’s side, even though he knew his brother didn’t trust him and may never. but sam didn’t give up. he stayed clean. he stayed by dean’s side. he was honest. not more lies. he never stopped proving himself to his brother. and when dean gave up on sam, cas, bobby and himself…sam had faith in his brother and believed in him. sam wasn’t told what to do. he knew what he did wrong and he proved himself over and over again to dean til he got that trust back. I guess the point is…sam made the effort. he didn’t wallow in his guilt. he faced it head on, he took responsibility and he took the punishment. he never gave up on trying to make things right.
the reason why I don’t buy dean not knowing what to do is exactly because of this. he knew what sam did to make it right. he’s aware of the proper procedure for atoning for a betrayal of trust. you know what else, dean never told sam what to do. he never told him how to make it right. sam used his common sense. am I to believe that dean Winchester has no common sense?
no I think it’s pride…and pride goeth before the fall and I think dean is going to fall big. as I’ve said before, when sam asked dean if his condition him (up all nite) was because of what he had said the night before, dean’s retort was…I don’t break easy. so that tells me dean knew that sam was trying to get dean to break, to talk to him, which is true. but instead of dean taking the opportunity to talk to his brother, he lets pride take over instead. then at the end of the purge, instead of apologizing and acknowledging what he knew he did wrong, he instead took the stance that he was right. not only that but he’d do it all again even knowing kevin would die by sam’s hands.
dean not apologizing and not admitting where he went wrong doesn’t stem from ignorance.
there’s a deeper issue as to why dean can’t face up to what he’s done.
i’m not trying to hang dean from the rafters but i am also not willing to give him a free pass for what he’s done. I am also totally aware that love was a motivator. we are talking about a lifetime of dean making decisions for his brother and not having faith in him. this isn’t just something that happened this season, this has been going on for sam’s entire life. it’s time for sam to be able to decide for himself what’s right for him. it’s time for dean to start trusting in sam and to treat him as a grown man. sam is his brother not his child.
i’m finding it very hard to swallow that dean can’t figure out what to do to make it right. I’m not so sure that gad was never going to let sam go . it doesn’t really matter either way. the point was dean trusted an angel instead of his own brother from the start. instead of putting faith in sam’s decision, he instead feared sam’s decision and thus made sam’s decision for him. but I get it, dean wasn’t going to let sam die. but if dean had put his trust in his brother instead of lying to him for months and months, if in fact it’s true gad wouldn’t have let sam go, dean would’ve found out a hell of a lot sooner. trusting in sam might’ve saved kevin or at the very least kevin might not have died by sam’s hands. a lot of things might have turned out differently if dean had trusted in sam in the first place. :-*
I really refuse to believe that dean is ignorant and I don’t believe he doesn’t know what to do to make it right. he knows what he did wrong. and if he can’t manage to figure out for himself what to do to make it right with sam…all he has to do it ask…sam, I know I broke your trust. I know what I did that hurt you. what can I do to fix this? that’s not so hard. and here’s something else he might want to try…saying he’s sorry or if he can’t say it, at least acknowledge how much he hurt his brother, because as of right now all dean has been doing is wallowing in his own guilt and shame.
I know i’m a broken record, but it think it’s relevant. in Lucifer rising, the moment sam found out he’d been played and realized what he’d done, when he realized he should’ve listened to dean, he looked dean straight in the eye and said he was sorry. he apologized after too and tried to talk to dean about it but dean shut sam down. he didn’t want to talk. sam never wallowed though. he first feared that he couldn’t control his addiction and feared for dean’s safety. he believed he was a danger. but when he realized he could control it and it didn’t control him, he called his brother and wanted back in. he wanted to fight by his brother’s side, even though he knew his brother didn’t trust him and may never. but sam didn’t give up. he stayed clean. he stayed by dean’s side. he was honest. not more lies. he never stopped proving himself to his brother. and when dean gave up on sam, cas, bobby and himself…sam had faith in his brother and believed in him. sam wasn’t told what to do. he knew what he did wrong and he proved himself over and over again to dean til he got that trust back. I guess the point is…sam made the effort. he didn’t wallow in his guilt. he faced it head on, he took responsibility and he took the punishment. he never gave up on trying to make things right.
the reason why I don’t buy dean not knowing what to do is exactly because of this. he knew what sam did to make it right. he’s aware of the proper procedure for atoning for a betrayal of trust. you know what else, dean never told sam what to do. he never told him how to make it right. sam used his common sense. am I to believe that dean Winchester has no common sense?
no I think it’s pride…and pride goeth before the fall and I think dean is going to fall big. as I’ve said before, when sam asked dean if his condition him (up all nite) was because of what he had said the night before, dean’s retort was…I don’t break easy. so that tells me dean knew that sam was trying to get dean to break, to talk to him, which is true. but instead of dean taking the opportunity to talk to his brother, he lets pride take over instead. then at the end of the purge, instead of apologizing and acknowledging what he knew he did wrong, he instead took the stance that he was right. not only that but he’d do it all again even knowing kevin would die by sam’s hands.
dean not apologizing and not admitting where he went wrong doesn’t stem from ignorance.
there’s a deeper issue as to why dean can’t face up to what he’s done.
nappi I am not going to get into an argument here because we do disagree on this. My opinion is that Dean doesn’t think he has anything to apologize for. It is hard to say your sorry when you aren’t. This is the lesson that Dean needs to learn. Sam knew he screwed up. He knew all along that what he was doing was wrong, good intentions and all. Dean still believes that end justifies the means. I am not saying that he is right. I am just saying imo Dean has not learned his lesson yet. As I have said before many characters have tried to teach Dean this lesson and apparently he still hasn’t learned it. The first thing he does after leaving Sam is to jump without thinking into another deal. With Crowely! Yeah that won’t blow up in his face. Clearly Dean needs to learn, as I said, just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. Until he learns that lesson I don’t believe an apology will be coming. He knows Sam is upset but he is not going to apologize for Sam being alive at least not at this point.
nappi I am not going to get into an argument here because we do disagree on this. My opinion is that Dean doesn’t think he has anything to apologize for. It is hard to say your sorry when you aren’t. This is the lesson that Dean needs to learn. Sam knew he screwed up. He knew all along that what he was doing was wrong, good intentions and all. Dean still believes that end justifies the means. I am not saying that he is right. I am just saying imo Dean has not learned his lesson yet. As I have said before many characters have tried to teach Dean this lesson and apparently he still hasn’t learned it. The first thing he does after leaving Sam is to jump without thinking into another deal. With Crowely! Yeah that won’t blow up in his face. Clearly Dean needs to learn, as I said, just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. Until he learns that lesson I don’t believe an apology will be coming. He knows Sam is upset but he is not going to apologize for Sam being alive at least not at this point.
Cheryl, I don’t know why you would think i’m trying to pick an argument with you. I just don’t agree with everything you are saying. I do agree with the part that dean hasn’t learned his lesson. I can’t agree with the part that dean doesn’t think he has anything to apologize for when he knew going in, as he admitted to zeke, that sam would never allow for possession. that’s why dean hesitated in the first place. that’s why he had to use trickery to get sam to say yes. dean knew from the moment he decided to do this that sam would be angry. he did not go in blind. he expected sam to be angry. he knew lying to sam for so long would end up biting him in the ass. he knew it. he showed his frustration with every ep in which he kept the secret. he knew sam would be angry at that the lies. dean knew what he was doing when he was doing it and he knew, he knew that he’d end up having to deal with sam’s wrath. problem is dean isn’t just dealing with sam’s wrath. hell, sam hasn’t yelled at dean at all. maybe that’s why up is down and down is sideways. I think dean thought he’d be dealing more with sam’s anger, and his stance that doing what he did to keep sam alive was right was going to be his defense. my feeling is dean thought sam would come to see things his way when he calmed down. the problem is…sam never got irate with dean. there was no yelling. there was no hitting which i think dean would’ve preferred. there was just hurt and pain. yes anger too, but it was a quiet anger, a somber anger…not an anger that dean was ready to defend himself against.
I don’t think dean ever expected sam to utter the words..i can’t trust you. there’s something broken. I don’t think dean was expecting that reaction at all. now dean has come to realize, kind of like with the text, that he pushed sam further than he’d expected. it wasn’t his intention. he didn’t want it. but here it is.
dean is dealing with more pain and hurt than anger and I think he’s having a hard time facing that. dean never had a problem with an angry sam, but a hurt one, that’s a horse of a different color. dean’s still holding onto the stance that he’s right, but I don’t think he actually believes it. i think it’s more about not being able to face up to what he did, not that he doesn’t think there’s anything to be sorry for. i would really love an apology from dean just because it’s the right thing to do. but i don’t know if an apology is more of what i’d like than sam, though i do think he’d appreciate one. i think what sam needs from dean is acknowledgement. that he knows he hurt him. he knows he lied to him. he knows he broke his trust. i do think sam would like dean to make the effort to try to make it right..i think acknowledgement is the first step. that i think dean can do, but at this time won’t.
i do think that has to do with dean’s own personal issues regarding himself. i feel that dean’s seeming lack of trust in sam isn’t in fact lack of trust in sam, but lack of trust in himself.
i think the reason dean holds sam so close and fears losing him is because dean thinks that without sam, he would inevitably become that person he seems to think himself to be and hates so much. maybe he fears without sam, he would be a stone cold killer. they keep each other human. i think dean has a darkness in him and i believe that dean thinks that sam is his light. i really think dean is afraid of being alone. i don’t think dean trusts himself enough to survive. maybe dean doesn’t trust in himself to stay good. someone told dean once that he left a piece of him behind in hell. i thought at the time it was figurative..that a part of dean’s goodness was taken from him while in hell..he lost some of his humanity as he tortured souls. maybe dean still believes that he’s no good. he said once in daldom that when he looked in the mirror he didn’t like what he saw. i think dean’s self loathing is projected onto sam. if i think i’m worthless sam must as well. i think that’s why saving sam all the time is so important. if he’s sam’s hero, if he’s always protecting him, if he always sacrifices for him, then sam will have to love him. he won’t ever want to leave him. the problem with that is, dean is holding on so tight that he’s beginning to lose his grip. sam loves dean because of dean. because they’re brothers. he doesn’t love dean because he’s his hero. he doesn’t have to do the same thing as dean to love him. they would be close no matter what. dean just doesn’t seem to get that. i think that’s another lesson dean has to learn.
i feel like dean can’t face up to what he did to sam because then he’d have to face up to why….and maybe he’s not ready to deal with that yet.
Cheryl, I don’t know why you would think i’m trying to pick an argument with you. I just don’t agree with everything you are saying. I do agree with the part that dean hasn’t learned his lesson. I can’t agree with the part that dean doesn’t think he has anything to apologize for when he knew going in, as he admitted to zeke, that sam would never allow for possession. that’s why dean hesitated in the first place. that’s why he had to use trickery to get sam to say yes. dean knew from the moment he decided to do this that sam would be angry. he did not go in blind. he expected sam to be angry. he knew lying to sam for so long would end up biting him in the ass. he knew it. he showed his frustration with every ep in which he kept the secret. he knew sam would be angry at that the lies. dean knew what he was doing when he was doing it and he knew, he knew that he’d end up having to deal with sam’s wrath. problem is dean isn’t just dealing with sam’s wrath. hell, sam hasn’t yelled at dean at all. maybe that’s why up is down and down is sideways. I think dean thought he’d be dealing more with sam’s anger, and his stance that doing what he did to keep sam alive was right was going to be his defense. my feeling is dean thought sam would come to see things his way when he calmed down. the problem is…sam never got irate with dean. there was no yelling. there was no hitting which i think dean would’ve preferred. there was just hurt and pain. yes anger too, but it was a quiet anger, a somber anger…not an anger that dean was ready to defend himself against.
I don’t think dean ever expected sam to utter the words..i can’t trust you. there’s something broken. I don’t think dean was expecting that reaction at all. now dean has come to realize, kind of like with the text, that he pushed sam further than he’d expected. it wasn’t his intention. he didn’t want it. but here it is.
dean is dealing with more pain and hurt than anger and I think he’s having a hard time facing that. dean never had a problem with an angry sam, but a hurt one, that’s a horse of a different color. dean’s still holding onto the stance that he’s right, but I don’t think he actually believes it. i think it’s more about not being able to face up to what he did, not that he doesn’t think there’s anything to be sorry for. i would really love an apology from dean just because it’s the right thing to do. but i don’t know if an apology is more of what i’d like than sam, though i do think he’d appreciate one. i think what sam needs from dean is acknowledgement. that he knows he hurt him. he knows he lied to him. he knows he broke his trust. i do think sam would like dean to make the effort to try to make it right..i think acknowledgement is the first step. that i think dean can do, but at this time won’t.
i do think that has to do with dean’s own personal issues regarding himself. i feel that dean’s seeming lack of trust in sam isn’t in fact lack of trust in sam, but lack of trust in himself.
i think the reason dean holds sam so close and fears losing him is because dean thinks that without sam, he would inevitably become that person he seems to think himself to be and hates so much. maybe he fears without sam, he would be a stone cold killer. they keep each other human. i think dean has a darkness in him and i believe that dean thinks that sam is his light. i really think dean is afraid of being alone. i don’t think dean trusts himself enough to survive. maybe dean doesn’t trust in himself to stay good. someone told dean once that he left a piece of him behind in hell. i thought at the time it was figurative..that a part of dean’s goodness was taken from him while in hell..he lost some of his humanity as he tortured souls. maybe dean still believes that he’s no good. he said once in daldom that when he looked in the mirror he didn’t like what he saw. i think dean’s self loathing is projected onto sam. if i think i’m worthless sam must as well. i think that’s why saving sam all the time is so important. if he’s sam’s hero, if he’s always protecting him, if he always sacrifices for him, then sam will have to love him. he won’t ever want to leave him. the problem with that is, dean is holding on so tight that he’s beginning to lose his grip. sam loves dean because of dean. because they’re brothers. he doesn’t love dean because he’s his hero. he doesn’t have to do the same thing as dean to love him. they would be close no matter what. dean just doesn’t seem to get that. i think that’s another lesson dean has to learn.
i feel like dean can’t face up to what he did to sam because then he’d have to face up to why….and maybe he’s not ready to deal with that yet.
Nappi, I don’t think Dean should get a free pass! I am saying give it time. No one is saying Dean was right or shouldn’t apologize. I think that Dean having made decisions for Sam his entirely life doesn’t necessarily mean he never had trust in Sam. He was USED to making decisions for Sam. In a parental way that is hard to break. I do think that he needs to let Sam be his own person and let him grow up and honestly I think he had made headway on that. Up until S8. S8 I will always detest because it made Dean look like he has never forgiven Sam for anything and he thought someone else was a better brother. It made Sam appear to not care enough for his brother to attempt to follow through and find out what happened. Not my opinion of either character but that is the lingering feeling.
Just because I am not livid at Dean for his actions doesn’t mean I condone them or think Sam is wrong to be pissed.
I think Dean will look Sam in the eye and say he is sorry he hurt him. In the months proceeding Lucifer Rising Sam lied and went behind Deans back many times, thinking he was doing the right thing. Before HE looked into Dean’s eyes. Dean had a hard time forgiving Sam too. Betrayals on both sides. Not black and white. I won’t turn this into a Sam vs Dean thing. I just see a lot of anger because Dean has spit out an apology yet. I NEVER said he shouldn’t give Sam an apology or that he was justified in doing things the way he did.
That’s OK nappi, I respect your opinions even if we don’t always agree. Up until recently we usually did.
Nappi, I don’t think Dean should get a free pass! I am saying give it time. No one is saying Dean was right or shouldn’t apologize. I think that Dean having made decisions for Sam his entirely life doesn’t necessarily mean he never had trust in Sam. He was USED to making decisions for Sam. In a parental way that is hard to break. I do think that he needs to let Sam be his own person and let him grow up and honestly I think he had made headway on that. Up until S8. S8 I will always detest because it made Dean look like he has never forgiven Sam for anything and he thought someone else was a better brother. It made Sam appear to not care enough for his brother to attempt to follow through and find out what happened. Not my opinion of either character but that is the lingering feeling.
Just because I am not livid at Dean for his actions doesn’t mean I condone them or think Sam is wrong to be pissed.
I think Dean will look Sam in the eye and say he is sorry he hurt him. In the months proceeding Lucifer Rising Sam lied and went behind Deans back many times, thinking he was doing the right thing. Before HE looked into Dean’s eyes. Dean had a hard time forgiving Sam too. Betrayals on both sides. Not black and white. I won’t turn this into a Sam vs Dean thing. I just see a lot of anger because Dean has spit out an apology yet. I NEVER said he shouldn’t give Sam an apology or that he was justified in doing things the way he did.
That’s OK nappi, I respect your opinions even if we don’t always agree. Up until recently we usually did.
Oh yeah on the self hatred thing, when has Dean ever liked what he saw in the mirror. I blame a lot of that on John, Dean could never live up to his expectations and got hammered if he ever took his eye off of Sam. Both of those things inform alot of what Dean is. Hell didn’t help. He broke and tortured and LIKED it. What has he ever done that he was proud of except be Sam’s big brother and protector and hunting. Both of which gave him some self-worth.
Oh yeah on the self hatred thing, when has Dean ever liked what he saw in the mirror. I blame a lot of that on John, Dean could never live up to his expectations and got hammered if he ever took his eye off of Sam. Both of those things inform alot of what Dean is. Hell didn’t help. He broke and tortured and LIKED it. What has he ever done that he was proud of except be Sam’s big brother and protector and hunting. Both of which gave him some self-worth.
Sorry needed a few question marks here and there and I meant to say in @14 that Dean hasn’t spit out an apology. 🙂
Sorry needed a few question marks here and there and I meant to say in @14 that Dean hasn’t spit out an apology. 🙂
[quote name=”leah d”]Oh yeah on the self hatred thing, when has Dean ever liked what he saw in the mirror. I blame a lot of that on John, Dean could never live up to his expectations and got hammered if he ever took his eye off of Sam. Both of those things inform alot of what Dean is. Hell didn’t help. He broke and tortured and LIKED it. What has he ever done that he was proud of except be Sam’s big brother and protector and hunting. Both of which gave him some self-worth.[/quote]
[quote name=”leah d”]Nappi, I don’t think Dean should get a free pass! I am saying give it time. No one is saying Dean was right or shouldn’t apologize. I think that Dean having made decisions for Sam his entirely life doesn’t necessarily mean he never had trust in Sam. He was USED to making decisions for Sam. In a parental way that is hard to break. I do think that he needs to let Sam be his own person and let him grow up and honestly I think he had made headway on that. Up until S8. S8 I will always detest because it made Dean look like he has never forgiven Sam for anything and he thought someone else was a better brother. It made Sam appear to not care enough for his brother to attempt to follow through and find out what happened. Not my opinion of either character but that is the lingering feeling.
Just because I am not livid at Dean for his actions doesn’t mean I condone them or think Sam is wrong to be pissed.
I think Dean will look Sam in the eye and say he is sorry he hurt him. In the months proceeding Lucifer Rising Sam lied and went behind Deans back many times, thinking he was doing the right thing. Before HE looked into Dean’s eyes. Dean had a hard time forgiving Sam too. Betrayals on both sides. Not black and white. I won’t turn this into a Sam vs Dean thing. I just see a lot of anger because Dean has spit out an apology yet. I NEVER said he shouldn’t give Sam an apology or that he was justified in doing things the way he did.
That’s OK nappi, I respect your opinions even if we don’t always agree. Up until recently we usually did.[/quote]
I’m not livid at dean for his actions. I get annoyed at times that Sam is seen as the villain here, who’s expected to just get over his trauma and be nice to dean just because dean feels bad. There’s a bias that exists in the fandom that could be very frustrating at times. You know..it is what it is.
I have said that I understood why dean did what he did, as well as being glad. I want me a live Sammy. I just don’t agree that dean doesn’t think that there isn’t anything to apologize for…I think he is fully aware of what he did wrong, i just think he can’t or won’t face it. like I said, I believe if he acknowledges what he did he’d have to acknowledge why, which I don’t think he’s ready to come to terms with. Then again, maybe it is as u and Cheryl believe…I hope that show lets us know when they finally do talk…but unless/until show gives us a definitive answer, I’m leaning towards dean just not able to face it. Of course I know it’s gonna happen in time..I’m in no rush..I think the pacing is fine. It’s very realistic. If you think about it it really hasn’t been that long. As faraway eyes noted..they are purging their relationship..trimming the fat…and that’s going to take time and work…but the result will be all the more profound .
I love this season. There isn’t one ep that I could say sucked. I love where this is heading…these issues are 9 yrs old and we are finally about to face them head on. I’m looking forward to a new brother bond. One where they finally understand ea. other, accept each other, change, let go of their feelings of self worth, and respect ea. other as equals. It’s time for the parent child bond to cease…it’s well past due that these boys relate as the men they are now, not the boys they were then.
[quote]Oh yeah on the self hatred thing, when has Dean ever liked what he saw in the mirror. I blame a lot of that on John, Dean could never live up to his expectations and got hammered if he ever took his eye off of Sam. Both of those things inform alot of what Dean is. Hell didn’t help. He broke and tortured and LIKED it. What has he ever done that he was proud of except be Sam’s big brother and protector and hunting. Both of which gave him some self-worth.[/quote]
[quote]Nappi, I don’t think Dean should get a free pass! I am saying give it time. No one is saying Dean was right or shouldn’t apologize. I think that Dean having made decisions for Sam his entirely life doesn’t necessarily mean he never had trust in Sam. He was USED to making decisions for Sam. In a parental way that is hard to break. I do think that he needs to let Sam be his own person and let him grow up and honestly I think he had made headway on that. Up until S8. S8 I will always detest because it made Dean look like he has never forgiven Sam for anything and he thought someone else was a better brother. It made Sam appear to not care enough for his brother to attempt to follow through and find out what happened. Not my opinion of either character but that is the lingering feeling.
Just because I am not livid at Dean for his actions doesn’t mean I condone them or think Sam is wrong to be pissed.
I think Dean will look Sam in the eye and say he is sorry he hurt him. In the months proceeding Lucifer Rising Sam lied and went behind Deans back many times, thinking he was doing the right thing. Before HE looked into Dean’s eyes. Dean had a hard time forgiving Sam too. Betrayals on both sides. Not black and white. I won’t turn this into a Sam vs Dean thing. I just see a lot of anger because Dean has spit out an apology yet. I NEVER said he shouldn’t give Sam an apology or that he was justified in doing things the way he did.
That’s OK nappi, I respect your opinions even if we don’t always agree. Up until recently we usually did.[/quote]
I’m not livid at dean for his actions. I get annoyed at times that Sam is seen as the villain here, who’s expected to just get over his trauma and be nice to dean just because dean feels bad. There’s a bias that exists in the fandom that could be very frustrating at times. You know..it is what it is.
I have said that I understood why dean did what he did, as well as being glad. I want me a live Sammy. I just don’t agree that dean doesn’t think that there isn’t anything to apologize for…I think he is fully aware of what he did wrong, i just think he can’t or won’t face it. like I said, I believe if he acknowledges what he did he’d have to acknowledge why, which I don’t think he’s ready to come to terms with. Then again, maybe it is as u and Cheryl believe…I hope that show lets us know when they finally do talk…but unless/until show gives us a definitive answer, I’m leaning towards dean just not able to face it. Of course I know it’s gonna happen in time..I’m in no rush..I think the pacing is fine. It’s very realistic. If you think about it it really hasn’t been that long. As faraway eyes noted..they are purging their relationship..trimming the fat…and that’s going to take time and work…but the result will be all the more profound .
I love this season. There isn’t one ep that I could say sucked. I love where this is heading…these issues are 9 yrs old and we are finally about to face them head on. I’m looking forward to a new brother bond. One where they finally understand ea. other, accept each other, change, let go of their feelings of self worth, and respect ea. other as equals. It’s time for the parent child bond to cease…it’s well past due that these boys relate as the men they are now, not the boys they were then.
nappi I never said you were trying to start an argument I just know that we disagree about this one aspect of the show. It just starts to become dead horse territory.
nappi I never said you were trying to start an argument I just know that we disagree about this one aspect of the show. It just starts to become dead horse territory.
Agreed nappi, I know that the anger is somewhat of a backlash because some see Sam as the villain. I don’t and Cheryl certainly doesn’t. I think we are closer on most things than you think. I just don’t see his reluctance to apologize as an indication that he won’t ever do it. Or that he doesn’t care. Or that he is happy that Kevin is dead because Sam is alive. I didn’t say you were livid nappi, just that I am not. Someone whose opinion I really respect said she was starting to despise Dean. I felt bad about that. I kind of wanted to reply to her but I couldn’t find the comment again. 🙂
Where I might differ slightly from Cheryl is I do think Dean knows what he did was horrible in many ways, but he is NOT sorry that Sam is alive. He is depressed and conflicted and the conversation never goes much further before it is short-circuited. I think Dean may have been willing to talk (apologize?) to Sam after the Trans left but Sam (maybe he was overwhelmed or whatever) didn’t hang around. I am hoping a conversation will happen with sincere apologies but I have a hunch that the MoC will be a disrupting factor, if it isn’t already. 🙂
Agreed nappi, I know that the anger is somewhat of a backlash because some see Sam as the villain. I don’t and Cheryl certainly doesn’t. I think we are closer on most things than you think. I just don’t see his reluctance to apologize as an indication that he won’t ever do it. Or that he doesn’t care. Or that he is happy that Kevin is dead because Sam is alive. I didn’t say you were livid nappi, just that I am not. Someone whose opinion I really respect said she was starting to despise Dean. I felt bad about that. I kind of wanted to reply to her but I couldn’t find the comment again. 🙂
Where I might differ slightly from Cheryl is I do think Dean knows what he did was horrible in many ways, but he is NOT sorry that Sam is alive. He is depressed and conflicted and the conversation never goes much further before it is short-circuited. I think Dean may have been willing to talk (apologize?) to Sam after the Trans left but Sam (maybe he was overwhelmed or whatever) didn’t hang around. I am hoping a conversation will happen with sincere apologies but I have a hunch that the MoC will be a disrupting factor, if it isn’t already. 🙂
[quote name=”cheryl42″]nappi I am not going to get into an argument here because we do disagree on this. My opinion is that Dean doesn’t think he has anything to apologize for. It is hard to say your sorry when you aren’t. This is the lesson that Dean needs to learn. Sam knew he screwed up. He knew all along that what he was doing was wrong, good intentions and all. Dean still believes that end justifies the means. I am not saying that he is right. I am just saying imo Dean has not learned his lesson yet. As I have said before many characters have tried to teach Dean this lesson and apparently he still hasn’t learned it. The first thing he does after leaving Sam is to jump without thinking into another deal. With Crowely! Yeah that won’t blow up in his face. Clearly Dean needs to learn, as I said, just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. Until he learns that lesson I don’t believe an apology will be coming. He knows Sam is upset but he is not going to apologize for Sam being alive at least not at this point.[/quote]
I can see Dean not being sorry that Sam is alive, yes, I get that. But Dean can’t see that he should be sorry that he lied, that he turned Sam into a loaded gun against his will? That his actions lead to that loaded gun going off causing the death of a friend? No. I am not buying that. Not only does that make no (common) sense, but it’s not even true as far as Dean is concerned. If Dean did not understand that he did wrong by Sam, and by Kevin, then he wouldn’t feel so much guilt. But he DOES feel guilt (not for Sam being alive, he will never feel guilt for that probably) he’s wracked with guilt over so many things related to the possession. If the guilt he’s feeling now isn’t an indicator that he should apologize then I am not sure what’s going on or what will make him realize. When a person feels guilt then there is a fundamental need to atone and the fact that Dean feels the guilt AND the need to atone and DOESN’T apologize is where I am having a huge problem with him right now. I am not so sure that this is a character issue, I think its a writing issue. Possibly, Dean can’t or won’t apologize because TPTB need the conflict between the brothers to extend into the MoC conflict. But then it creates these scenarios where we, the fans, spend umpteen hours going on and on about why the current conflict isn’t working and seems to make no sense. In season 4, Sam had not only a reaction that was logical for his character, but a reaction that made common sense. Dean’s reaction now, is sort of in character in some ways, I mean Dean’s hung on to his guilt and been prideful before (the Amy thing, and the text message), but in many ways it makes no sense even for him to be so stubborn AND it makes no COMMON sense either which ends up reflecting badly on Dean IMO. I don’t like this Dean very much; he’s too self centered, too caustic. Where is his sense of fun? His joy, his humor? His snarkiness towards the Ghostfacers in this episode wasn’t fun or funny for me, it came off more mean and impatient. I actually appreciated Harry’s challenging of Dean and getting him to back down. Maybe this is by design; maybe the PTB are really altering everything about Dean’s character as a lead in to the MoC. They did it before with Sam in season 6 with his soullessness. Although the MoC can’t account for what Dean did at the start of the season, it could be a factor in how he is handling the current situation. I really hope that some of the way he’s behaving now can be attributed to the MoC and that it will be made clearer a little later, because I am growing impatient with this version of Dean, a Dean so wrapped up in himself that he can’t even give his little brother an apology for causing him pain, and for lying to him, for not trusting him, regardless of the fact that he can’t and probably won’t ever apologize for Sam being alive.
[quote]nappi I am not going to get into an argument here because we do disagree on this. My opinion is that Dean doesn’t think he has anything to apologize for. It is hard to say your sorry when you aren’t. This is the lesson that Dean needs to learn. Sam knew he screwed up. He knew all along that what he was doing was wrong, good intentions and all. Dean still believes that end justifies the means. I am not saying that he is right. I am just saying imo Dean has not learned his lesson yet. As I have said before many characters have tried to teach Dean this lesson and apparently he still hasn’t learned it. The first thing he does after leaving Sam is to jump without thinking into another deal. With Crowely! Yeah that won’t blow up in his face. Clearly Dean needs to learn, as I said, just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. Until he learns that lesson I don’t believe an apology will be coming. He knows Sam is upset but he is not going to apologize for Sam being alive at least not at this point.[/quote]
I can see Dean not being sorry that Sam is alive, yes, I get that. But Dean can’t see that he should be sorry that he lied, that he turned Sam into a loaded gun against his will? That his actions lead to that loaded gun going off causing the death of a friend? No. I am not buying that. Not only does that make no (common) sense, but it’s not even true as far as Dean is concerned. If Dean did not understand that he did wrong by Sam, and by Kevin, then he wouldn’t feel so much guilt. But he DOES feel guilt (not for Sam being alive, he will never feel guilt for that probably) he’s wracked with guilt over so many things related to the possession. If the guilt he’s feeling now isn’t an indicator that he should apologize then I am not sure what’s going on or what will make him realize. When a person feels guilt then there is a fundamental need to atone and the fact that Dean feels the guilt AND the need to atone and DOESN’T apologize is where I am having a huge problem with him right now. I am not so sure that this is a character issue, I think its a writing issue. Possibly, Dean can’t or won’t apologize because TPTB need the conflict between the brothers to extend into the MoC conflict. But then it creates these scenarios where we, the fans, spend umpteen hours going on and on about why the current conflict isn’t working and seems to make no sense. In season 4, Sam had not only a reaction that was logical for his character, but a reaction that made common sense. Dean’s reaction now, is sort of in character in some ways, I mean Dean’s hung on to his guilt and been prideful before (the Amy thing, and the text message), but in many ways it makes no sense even for him to be so stubborn AND it makes no COMMON sense either which ends up reflecting badly on Dean IMO. I don’t like this Dean very much; he’s too self centered, too caustic. Where is his sense of fun? His joy, his humor? His snarkiness towards the Ghostfacers in this episode wasn’t fun or funny for me, it came off more mean and impatient. I actually appreciated Harry’s challenging of Dean and getting him to back down. Maybe this is by design; maybe the PTB are really altering everything about Dean’s character as a lead in to the MoC. They did it before with Sam in season 6 with his soullessness. Although the MoC can’t account for what Dean did at the start of the season, it could be a factor in how he is handling the current situation. I really hope that some of the way he’s behaving now can be attributed to the MoC and that it will be made clearer a little later, because I am growing impatient with this version of Dean, a Dean so wrapped up in himself that he can’t even give his little brother an apology for causing him pain, and for lying to him, for not trusting him, regardless of the fact that he can’t and probably won’t ever apologize for Sam being alive.
[quote name=”leah d”] Someone whose opinion I really respect said she was starting to despise Dean. I felt bad about that. I kind of wanted to reply to her but I couldn’t find the comment again. 🙂
[/quote]
Hi Leah, that was me… I am glad you respect my opinion and sorry that you felt bad about what I said, my ire was up. Despise is probably too strong a word, but I am not liking him very much right now and it possibly has as much to do with the current plot development than it does Dean himself. I am finding his reluctance to even acknowledge Sam’s feelings difficult to take and really not all that like him. He usually feels terrible when Sam feels terrible, or at least he used to, but right now, even though I think he knows that Sam feels bad, he seems to not be willing to acknowledge it, and every episode that goes by without an acknowledgement makes it even worse IMO. Then heap on top of that all of the fans who are saying “poor Dean” “Sam should just get over himself, can’t he see that he’s making Dean feel bad?” and it is making me even less inclined toward being patient with Dean ATM because the fan reaction is so contrary and unfair. I agree that Dean has a lot to learn, I just wish he’d go ahead and learn it already; it’s high time….. even years in the making. Death tried to teach him all the way back in season 6, and here we are again.
[quote] Someone whose opinion I really respect said she was starting to despise Dean. I felt bad about that. I kind of wanted to reply to her but I couldn’t find the comment again. 🙂
[/quote]
Hi Leah, that was me… I am glad you respect my opinion and sorry that you felt bad about what I said, my ire was up. Despise is probably too strong a word, but I am not liking him very much right now and it possibly has as much to do with the current plot development than it does Dean himself. I am finding his reluctance to even acknowledge Sam’s feelings difficult to take and really not all that like him. He usually feels terrible when Sam feels terrible, or at least he used to, but right now, even though I think he knows that Sam feels bad, he seems to not be willing to acknowledge it, and every episode that goes by without an acknowledgement makes it even worse IMO. Then heap on top of that all of the fans who are saying “poor Dean” “Sam should just get over himself, can’t he see that he’s making Dean feel bad?” and it is making me even less inclined toward being patient with Dean ATM because the fan reaction is so contrary and unfair. I agree that Dean has a lot to learn, I just wish he’d go ahead and learn it already; it’s high time….. even years in the making. Death tried to teach him all the way back in season 6, and here we are again.
The writers have spent alot of time making Dean sympathetic throughout the story , it was always going to be difficult for Sam to have the ‘right’ reaction to what alot of the fandom wanted. After [b]Bad Boys[/b] it made it near impossible for him to be hurt and angry with Dean couple that with no real Sam insight following through from the possession and the writers have Sam say not very nice things to Dean then it created a atmosphere of Sam is the ‘villian’ rather than the victim.
I have not been impressed with the way the sl has been handled on Sam’s behalf however neither has the story been hidden from the audience so it does not take that much to know Sam would be reacting from what was done to him esp given his past . I certainly do not want Dean demonized over what he did but he was the one that made that decision that devastating choice and Sam certainly should be the last one to be villianized over this situation.
Maybe Sam’s words did hit home but then Dean has said enough nasty , vicious things to Sam and Sacrifice was partly a result of that and in how Sam felt. I want the boys to talk but right now where do you go ? Dean knows he went too far but as long has Sam is alive he would do it again he is not learning anything so Sam cannot be encouraged to want to talk and have Dean understand while Dean is in that mode of thinking.
The [b]MOC[/b] is not going to make it any easier and what I sincerely do not want is for Sam to be in the wrong for his feelings and if he had not been stubborn and unfair and talked to Dean the relationship would be stronger and Dean would not of been pushed down a darker road because he was rejected by his brother.
The writers have spent alot of time making Dean sympathetic throughout the story , it was always going to be difficult for Sam to have the ‘right’ reaction to what alot of the fandom wanted. After [b]Bad Boys[/b] it made it near impossible for him to be hurt and angry with Dean couple that with no real Sam insight following through from the possession and the writers have Sam say not very nice things to Dean then it created a atmosphere of Sam is the ‘villian’ rather than the victim.
I have not been impressed with the way the sl has been handled on Sam’s behalf however neither has the story been hidden from the audience so it does not take that much to know Sam would be reacting from what was done to him esp given his past . I certainly do not want Dean demonized over what he did but he was the one that made that decision that devastating choice and Sam certainly should be the last one to be villianized over this situation.
Maybe Sam’s words did hit home but then Dean has said enough nasty , vicious things to Sam and Sacrifice was partly a result of that and in how Sam felt. I want the boys to talk but right now where do you go ? Dean knows he went too far but as long has Sam is alive he would do it again he is not learning anything so Sam cannot be encouraged to want to talk and have Dean understand while Dean is in that mode of thinking.
The [b]MOC[/b] is not going to make it any easier and what I sincerely do not want is for Sam to be in the wrong for his feelings and if he had not been stubborn and unfair and talked to Dean the relationship would be stronger and Dean would not of been pushed down a darker road because he was rejected by his brother.
[quote name=”Sharon”]The MOC is not going to make it any easier and what I sincerely do not want is for Sam to be in the wrong for his feelings and if he had not been stubborn and unfair and talked to Dean the relationship would be stronger and Dean would not of been pushed down a darker road because he was rejected by his brother.[/quote]
You read my mind! While I am loving the whole MoC scenario for its creativity, excitement level, and it’s exploration of Dean’s potential evil side, I am dreading the fan backlash onto Sam because of it. If Dean does go off the rails while the brothers are conflicted, Sam will bear the brunt of it. It won’t be because Dean made a rash decision or that actually HAS a dark side to be exploited, it will be because Sam was mean and drove Dean to it.
[quote]The MOC is not going to make it any easier and what I sincerely do not want is for Sam to be in the wrong for his feelings and if he had not been stubborn and unfair and talked to Dean the relationship would be stronger and Dean would not of been pushed down a darker road because he was rejected by his brother.[/quote]
You read my mind! While I am loving the whole MoC scenario for its creativity, excitement level, and it’s exploration of Dean’s potential evil side, I am dreading the fan backlash onto Sam because of it. If Dean does go off the rails while the brothers are conflicted, Sam will bear the brunt of it. It won’t be because Dean made a rash decision or that actually HAS a dark side to be exploited, it will be because Sam was mean and drove Dean to it.
Sam will only be ‘wrong’ for his feelings if ‘fans’ (and I intentionally use that word loosely) decide that he is. Of course, if they do it (discount Sam’s feelings) then it will do a huge disservice to Sam (which I doubt matters) because it merely makes him a plot point, no different from the Mark of Cain or Kevin’s death or even a typical MOTW. However, it will also do a disservice to Dean because it will, once again, hold him up to be someone who isn’t responsible for his actions.
I’m not convinced that the show won’t go that road, or that it won’t be mentioned somewhere along the line. We’ve seen Dean blame Sam for some pretty illogical stuff, especially under Carver so it is a possibility. However, if he does then it will set up some pretty notable differences in character between Sam and Dean, especially for those who remember season 5 when Sam, despite having no trust, no forgiveness, nothing by condemnation and condescension for what he did, after being kicked to the kerb time and again and having a brother who threw their brotherhood in the bin picked himself up, took full responsibility for his actions, and sought to make things right and in doing so, fixed the mistake he made when he broke the last seal, fixed the mistake Dean made by breaking the first seal and fixed the mistake the angels made by breaking 64 seals.
Now, hold that up to a (hypothetical) situation whereby Dean (or even the fans) says that the MoC and the ramifications of same were/will be Sam’s fault because he didn’t forgive/understand/forget etc what Dean did and it certainly does not show Dean in a positive light.
Sam will only be ‘wrong’ for his feelings if ‘fans’ (and I intentionally use that word loosely) decide that he is. Of course, if they do it (discount Sam’s feelings) then it will do a huge disservice to Sam (which I doubt matters) because it merely makes him a plot point, no different from the Mark of Cain or Kevin’s death or even a typical MOTW. However, it will also do a disservice to Dean because it will, once again, hold him up to be someone who isn’t responsible for his actions.
I’m not convinced that the show won’t go that road, or that it won’t be mentioned somewhere along the line. We’ve seen Dean blame Sam for some pretty illogical stuff, especially under Carver so it is a possibility. However, if he does then it will set up some pretty notable differences in character between Sam and Dean, especially for those who remember season 5 when Sam, despite having no trust, no forgiveness, nothing by condemnation and condescension for what he did, after being kicked to the kerb time and again and having a brother who threw their brotherhood in the bin picked himself up, took full responsibility for his actions, and sought to make things right and in doing so, fixed the mistake he made when he broke the last seal, fixed the mistake Dean made by breaking the first seal and fixed the mistake the angels made by breaking 64 seals.
Now, hold that up to a (hypothetical) situation whereby Dean (or even the fans) says that the MoC and the ramifications of same were/will be Sam’s fault because he didn’t forgive/understand/forget etc what Dean did and it certainly does not show Dean in a positive light.
Hi, Tim. This whole “fans” thing – who cares? I make up my own mind about the show. I don’t care what other people think. Sam’s feelings are not “wrong,” he is as he is written, and as YOU perceive him. Enjoy your show by NOT listening to “fans.”
That said, please don’t kill me for saying it. 😉
E I really can’t begin to guess what the writers are going for here. I can only go by the dialogue that Dean is saying and try to go from there. Dean said essentially I may not think things all the way through but I do it because it is the right thing to do. Which to me means he thinks he did the right thing. When he told Sam that Kevin’s death was on him I think he meant that he couldn’t protect Kevin and that is why Kevin is dead. I could be (and I am sure I am) completely wrong but we haven’t been given a whole lot to go on. Dean does feel horrible about what he put Sam through but Dean got what he wanted, Sam is alive. I guess my point is if Dean thought he needed to apologize he would have. Since he hasn’t I believe that he doesn’t think he has anything to apologize for. It is Dean’s journey this year. There is a lesson here for Dean. He needs to learn it before someone else gets killed.
Fans (and I use that word loosely for some who think they are fans) are going to blame Sam no matter what the writers do. They could make him the second coming and certain fans will cry foul. I am going to enjoy the show and root for both guys to prevail, hopefully together.
E I really can’t begin to guess what the writers are going for here. I can only go by the dialogue that Dean is saying and try to go from there. Dean said essentially I may not think things all the way through but I do it because it is the right thing to do. Which to me means he thinks he did the right thing. When he told Sam that Kevin’s death was on him I think he meant that he couldn’t protect Kevin and that is why Kevin is dead. I could be (and I am sure I am) completely wrong but we haven’t been given a whole lot to go on. Dean does feel horrible about what he put Sam through but Dean got what he wanted, Sam is alive. I guess my point is if Dean thought he needed to apologize he would have. Since he hasn’t I believe that he doesn’t think he has anything to apologize for. It is Dean’s journey this year. There is a lesson here for Dean. He needs to learn it before someone else gets killed.
Fans (and I use that word loosely for some who think they are fans) are going to blame Sam no matter what the writers do. They could make him the second coming and certain fans will cry foul. I am going to enjoy the show and root for both guys to prevail, hopefully together.
#24 Tim the Enchanter I wrote my post before I saw yours about fans. Obviously I couldn’t agree more. 🙂
#24 Tim the Enchanter I wrote my post before I saw yours about fans. Obviously I couldn’t agree more. 🙂
Quoting Tim the Enchanter “Now, hold that up to a (hypothetical) situation whereby Dean (or even the fans) says that the MoC and the ramifications of same were/will be Sam’s fault because he didn’t forgive/underst and/forget etc what Dean did and it certainly does not show Dean in a positive light.”
Since I brought up the MoC and it’s possible repercussions, I wanted to make clear that my mention was only to indicate the Dean’s behavior and lack of a apology might be affected by that at the moment. I wasn’t saying it should excuse Dean. Nor should it be used to make Sam look bad. I can’t imagine how it could show Dean in a positive light. I think, if anything, it will highlight Sam’s concern for Dean when he goes off the rails.
Quoting Tim the Enchanter “Now, hold that up to a (hypothetical) situation whereby Dean (or even the fans) says that the MoC and the ramifications of same were/will be Sam’s fault because he didn’t forgive/underst and/forget etc what Dean did and it certainly does not show Dean in a positive light.”
Since I brought up the MoC and it’s possible repercussions, I wanted to make clear that my mention was only to indicate the Dean’s behavior and lack of a apology might be affected by that at the moment. I wasn’t saying it should excuse Dean. Nor should it be used to make Sam look bad. I can’t imagine how it could show Dean in a positive light. I think, if anything, it will highlight Sam’s concern for Dean when he goes off the rails.
@27 leah d, I wasn’t addressing your post, I wasn’t even aware you brought it up. I was simply agreeing with Sharon and E, because the backlash and preemptive blaming has already started in many places.
@27 leah d, I wasn’t addressing your post, I wasn’t even aware you brought it up. I was simply agreeing with Sharon and E, because the backlash and preemptive blaming has already started in many places.
[quote name=”E”][quote name=”leah d”] Someone whose opinion I really respect said she was starting to despise Dean. I felt bad about that. I kind of wanted to reply to her but I couldn’t find the comment again. 🙂
[/quote]
Hi Leah, that was me… I am glad you respect my opinion and sorry that you felt bad about what I said, my ire was up. Despise is probably too strong a word, but I am not liking him very much right now and it possibly has as much to do with the current plot development than it does Dean himself. I am finding his reluctance to even acknowledge Sam’s feelings difficult to take and really not all that like him. He usually feels terrible when Sam feels terrible, or at least he used to, but right now, even though I think he knows that Sam feels bad, he seems to not be willing to acknowledge it, and every episode that goes by without an acknowledgement makes it even worse IMO. Then heap on top of that all of the fans who are saying “poor Dean” “Sam should just get over himself, can’t he see that he’s making Dean feel bad?” and it is making me even less inclined toward being patient with Dean ATM because the fan reaction is so contrary and unfair. I agree that Dean has a lot to learn, I just wish he’d go ahead and learn it already; it’s high time….. even years in the making. Death tried to teach him all the way back in season 6, and here we are again.[/quote]
Thanks E I do understand. I find that in spite of saying repeatedly that Dean is wrong and never saying anything close to Sam should “just get over it” that I get responses as if I did because I don’t see every move he makes in a negative light. Which nearly always gets interpreted as thinking he is right about everything and Sam is wrong. Not true. Sam should get and deserves an apology. I don’t think Dean is being shown in a very good light at all, this season, last season, or in the past. Same as Sam fans see it pretty much the opposite. Oh well, fans, what can you do with us 🙂 ?
[quote][quote] Someone whose opinion I really respect said she was starting to despise Dean. I felt bad about that. I kind of wanted to reply to her but I couldn’t find the comment again. 🙂
[/quote]
Hi Leah, that was me… I am glad you respect my opinion and sorry that you felt bad about what I said, my ire was up. Despise is probably too strong a word, but I am not liking him very much right now and it possibly has as much to do with the current plot development than it does Dean himself. I am finding his reluctance to even acknowledge Sam’s feelings difficult to take and really not all that like him. He usually feels terrible when Sam feels terrible, or at least he used to, but right now, even though I think he knows that Sam feels bad, he seems to not be willing to acknowledge it, and every episode that goes by without an acknowledgement makes it even worse IMO. Then heap on top of that all of the fans who are saying “poor Dean” “Sam should just get over himself, can’t he see that he’s making Dean feel bad?” and it is making me even less inclined toward being patient with Dean ATM because the fan reaction is so contrary and unfair. I agree that Dean has a lot to learn, I just wish he’d go ahead and learn it already; it’s high time….. even years in the making. Death tried to teach him all the way back in season 6, and here we are again.[/quote]
Thanks E I do understand. I find that in spite of saying repeatedly that Dean is wrong and never saying anything close to Sam should “just get over it” that I get responses as if I did because I don’t see every move he makes in a negative light. Which nearly always gets interpreted as thinking he is right about everything and Sam is wrong. Not true. Sam should get and deserves an apology. I don’t think Dean is being shown in a very good light at all, this season, last season, or in the past. Same as Sam fans see it pretty much the opposite. Oh well, fans, what can you do with us 🙂 ?
[quote name=”leah d”] Nor should it be used to make Sam look bad. I can’t imagine how it could show Dean in a positive light. I think, if anything, it will highlight Sam’s concern for Dean when he goes off the rails.[/quote]
That would seem like a reasonable assumption wouldn’t it Leah? 😀
However I have already seen it assumed a lot (in all seriousness) as being ‘when Dean goes off the rails Sam will realise how withholding his love/brotherly affection was the cause of Dean doing something bad and he will come around and apologise but it will be too late.’
Honestly if that is how the ‘fans’ choose to interpret it I can easily drop the fans and continue to watch the show (restart watching the show) but if the show is actually going that route then I will be very disappointed with it.
Since the SHOW will be wrong in that case….
And when you find yourself going ‘but that is just WRONG’ about a storyline, and you are well into the second season of thinking that, it is probably time to move on to a different show. (Or in my case go write the papers I am supposed to be writing and abandon TV altogether)
I don’t want Dean to be vilified the way Sam is being vilified (I don’t want Sam to be vilified either) but there is a point at which it wouldn’t kill the writers to allow Dean to admit that did some stuff that was wrong. It would actually increase my respect for the character, not decrease it.
[quote] Nor should it be used to make Sam look bad. I can’t imagine how it could show Dean in a positive light. I think, if anything, it will highlight Sam’s concern for Dean when he goes off the rails.[/quote]
That would seem like a reasonable assumption wouldn’t it Leah? 😀
However I have already seen it assumed a lot (in all seriousness) as being ‘when Dean goes off the rails Sam will realise how withholding his love/brotherly affection was the cause of Dean doing something bad and he will come around and apologise but it will be too late.’
Honestly if that is how the ‘fans’ choose to interpret it I can easily drop the fans and continue to watch the show (restart watching the show) but if the show is actually going that route then I will be very disappointed with it.
Since the SHOW will be wrong in that case….
And when you find yourself going ‘but that is just WRONG’ about a storyline, and you are well into the second season of thinking that, it is probably time to move on to a different show. (Or in my case go write the papers I am supposed to be writing and abandon TV altogether)
I don’t want Dean to be vilified the way Sam is being vilified (I don’t want Sam to be vilified either) but there is a point at which it wouldn’t kill the writers to allow Dean to admit that did some stuff that was wrong. It would actually increase my respect for the character, not decrease it.
[quote name=”Tim the Enchanter”]@27 leah d, I wasn’t addressing your post, I wasn’t even aware you brought it up. I was simply agreeing with Sharon and E, because the backlash and preemptive blaming has already started in many places.[/quote]
That’s fine Tim, no problem, I just thought someone might think that was what I was getting at in my earlier post. Just clarifying.
[quote]@27 leah d, I wasn’t addressing your post, I wasn’t even aware you brought it up. I was simply agreeing with Sharon and E, because the backlash and preemptive blaming has already started in many places.[/quote]
That’s fine Tim, no problem, I just thought someone might think that was what I was getting at in my earlier post. Just clarifying.
Leah, my issue is that since Sam has gotten his personality back there have been a good number of posts such as :
‘Sam is irredeemable’ and
‘Sam doesn’t care about Dean, never did’ and
‘Sam is selfish’ and
‘Sam doesn’t know or care what Dean has gone through for him’
‘Sam hurt Dean’s feelings, he is so awful’ and
‘Why can’t we get rid of Sam and have Benny /Cas as Dean’s brother instead, since they have never let Dean down or lied to him’ (eyeroll)
I have a huge, huge issue with all of these comments as they are untrue and unfair and a real disservice to Sam as a character. (That last one also makes out that Dean’s outlook on life and friendships is so simplistic as to be totally ridiculous). These are the sorts of things that people who are puzzled by the negative attitude towards Sam are arguing with – and they do tend to push people to respond to them in a way that make it look like they dislike Dean. Which is simply not true. I like Dean but I can’t condone a lot of what he has done, especially this season, and it is driving me crazy that the show seems to be saying I should.
I think very few if any of the regular posters on here be it Samgirls or Deangirls would have much issue with: ‘Dean has all sorts of complexities in his life that makes it difficult for him to see his relationship with Sam clearly’ and ‘Dean loves Sam and so he can’t not save him’ – which I see as being your principal points? So I don’t think that anyone really has any argument with what you are saying…
But that doesn’t make the way Sam is feeling and behaving wrong and it would be nice if the people who posted the types of comments I listed initially would be willing to meet us half way at least, it would reduce the annoyance on all sides.
The negativity in the responses isn’t for you (or anyone else who just wants to put forward Dean’s point of view) it is for the situation where, because he has decided to try to stand up for himself, Sam is now getting blamed for everything that happened TO him in the first half of the season
Which is not something that you have ever said and I know is not something you agree with
Leah, my issue is that since Sam has gotten his personality back there have been a good number of posts such as :
‘Sam is irredeemable’ and
‘Sam doesn’t care about Dean, never did’ and
‘Sam is selfish’ and
‘Sam doesn’t know or care what Dean has gone through for him’
‘Sam hurt Dean’s feelings, he is so awful’ and
‘Why can’t we get rid of Sam and have Benny /Cas as Dean’s brother instead, since they have never let Dean down or lied to him’ (eyeroll)
I have a huge, huge issue with all of these comments as they are untrue and unfair and a real disservice to Sam as a character. (That last one also makes out that Dean’s outlook on life and friendships is so simplistic as to be totally ridiculous). These are the sorts of things that people who are puzzled by the negative attitude towards Sam are arguing with – and they do tend to push people to respond to them in a way that make it look like they dislike Dean. Which is simply not true. I like Dean but I can’t condone a lot of what he has done, especially this season, and it is driving me crazy that the show seems to be saying I should.
I think very few if any of the regular posters on here be it Samgirls or Deangirls would have much issue with: ‘Dean has all sorts of complexities in his life that makes it difficult for him to see his relationship with Sam clearly’ and ‘Dean loves Sam and so he can’t not save him’ – which I see as being your principal points? So I don’t think that anyone really has any argument with what you are saying…
But that doesn’t make the way Sam is feeling and behaving wrong and it would be nice if the people who posted the types of comments I listed initially would be willing to meet us half way at least, it would reduce the annoyance on all sides.
The negativity in the responses isn’t for you (or anyone else who just wants to put forward Dean’s point of view) it is for the situation where, because he has decided to try to stand up for himself, Sam is now getting blamed for everything that happened TO him in the first half of the season
Which is not something that you have ever said and I know is not something you agree with
Quoting eilf:
” I don’t want Dean to be vilified the way Sam is being vilified (I don’t want Sam to be vilified either) but there is a point at which it wouldn’t kill the writers to allow Dean to admit that did some stuff that was wrong. It would actually increase my respect for the character, not decrease it.”
I don’t disagree in the least eilf! I just think that Dean will admit he is wrong at some point. He KNOWS he wasn’t in the right. He is clinging to “I saved you” so he doesn’t have to face it IMO. I won’t be happy either if the show doesn’t back Sam up on this. The vilifications are not limited to Sam however. Some deserved, some not.
Quoting eilf:
” I don’t want Dean to be vilified the way Sam is being vilified (I don’t want Sam to be vilified either) but there is a point at which it wouldn’t kill the writers to allow Dean to admit that did some stuff that was wrong. It would actually increase my respect for the character, not decrease it.”
I don’t disagree in the least eilf! I just think that Dean will admit he is wrong at some point. He KNOWS he wasn’t in the right. He is clinging to “I saved you” so he doesn’t have to face it IMO. I won’t be happy either if the show doesn’t back Sam up on this. The vilifications are not limited to Sam however. Some deserved, some not.
For Leah, cause it’s true 😀
[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/3780a760422fa7da4495bd44e78ed58c/tumblr_mtvfsk00Oe1r09qfio2_r1_250.gif[/img]
For Leah, cause it’s true 😀
[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/3780a760422fa7da4495bd44e78ed58c/tumblr_mtvfsk00Oe1r09qfio2_r1_250.gif[/img]
Thanks eilf! <3
i don’t think the moc has anything to do with dean not apologizing or his inability to face what he’s done. dean has always had a hard time dealing with his guilt and shame when it comes to sam, and he’s often taken the stance that he did the right thing to justify his actions. he’s shirked taking responsibility for himself in the past. whatever his issues are concerning him not taking responsibility for what he did to sam , i don’t think it has anything to do with the moc. dean walked away from sam on that bridge and he didn’t have any mark on him. the very fact that dean feels guilty about sam, that he felt guilty from the start and not just since all hell broke loose, leads me to believe that dean does in fact know that he did wrong. if there was no guilt i can see that he would think there is nothing to apologize for, but the fact that he started feeling guilty in eppy 2, is proof enough for me that dean knew very well what he was in fact doing wrong. not the save. but the trickery and deceit. dean might be unwilling or unable to acknowledge sam’s pain right now, but that doesn’t mean he’s unaware of the reasons it exists.
i know dean will open up to sam eventually and hopefully we will all get an explanation on dean’s true motivations and/or lack there of. i do agree with Cheryl, that no matter how that plays out, it will do no good for sam to tell dean what he did wrong or why it was wrong. that is a lesson dean has to learn for himself. if not, then he will only continue to repeat the same mistakes again and again.
i was thinking that dean misunderstood what kevin meant when he told them the fighting was stupid and they should let it go. i don’t think kevin meant they should let the issue go. kevin said he was privy to the fighting. he was there. so my guess is he knows the gist of it. i think what kevin meant by them letting it go….was that sam and dean should let it go or in other words let it all out. not blow off the problem, but open up and talk about it. that kind of letting go. the spill your guts, discuss the problem and find a way to deal with them, letting go. they both promised kevin they would.and knowing sam like i do, given past history and how he handles things, i think sam will eventually confront dean whether dean makes the first move or not. but since dean has, up until kevin released them of their guilt and told them to just let it go, been reluctant to acknowledge what he did to sam, i really do feel, like 99% percent sure, that when dean turned his head to talk to sam, it would’ve been more along the lines of dean telling him…kevin is right we should let this go. as in forget the whole thing and move on, which would’ve been the worst thing dean could say to sam at that moment. as i noted above, after really thinking about it and considering that kevin was just so zen about all that happened to him and why, i really do feel that dean misunderstood what kevin meant. that’s just my thought on that.
i had another thought regarding the moc. like i said i don’t think the moc has really started to take affect yet. i think dean has to touch it to really take affect. i know dean was extra bitchy to the ghostfacers, but i do think that ‘s in character with dean in regards to them. dean takes hunting and saving lives very seriously and the ghostfacers are in it for fame and money. they don’t know what they are doing and they put themselves and others in danger. they even got Corbett killed. so as extra harsh as dean seemed, it’s really not ooc for him to react that way towards them. the only thing that seemed a little bit off in regards to dean was the deliberate way he killed thinman. dean has been open to killing humans before, so the actually killing isn’t ooc for dean. but this kill seemed like it was in slow motion, like he might have took pleasure in it. in that sense i think the moc might be starting to affect dean ever so slightly. i don’t think the moc is the reason dean’s not acknowledging sam’s pain and hurt and not facing up to what he did wrong. i think the moc’s affects relate more along the line of dean’s penchant for killing (he is a hunter after all and that their job). i think that’s exactly why Crowley picked dean to find the first blade in the first place.
i don’t think the moc has anything to do with dean not apologizing or his inability to face what he’s done. dean has always had a hard time dealing with his guilt and shame when it comes to sam, and he’s often taken the stance that he did the right thing to justify his actions. he’s shirked taking responsibility for himself in the past. whatever his issues are concerning him not taking responsibility for what he did to sam , i don’t think it has anything to do with the moc. dean walked away from sam on that bridge and he didn’t have any mark on him. I still feel that dean is in fact aware of what he did in fact do wrong. the very fact that dean feels guilty about sam, that he felt guilty from the start and not just since all hell broke loose, leads me to believe that dean does in fact know where his mistakes lie. if there was no guilt i could maybe agree that he would think there is nothing to apologize for, but the fact that he started feeling guilty in eppy 2, is proof to me that dean knew very well what he was doing was wrong and felt like crap for doing it. i’m not referring to the save. but the trickery and deceit. dean might be unwilling or unable to acknowledge sam’s pain right now, but that doesn’t mean he’s unaware of the reasons it exists.
i know dean will open up to sam eventually and hopefully we will all get an explanation on dean’s true motivations and/or lack there of. i do agree with Cheryl, that no matter how that plays out, it will do no good for sam to tell dean what he did wrong or why it was wrong. that is a lesson dean has to learn for himself.
i was thinking that dean misunderstood what kevin meant when he told them the fighting was stupid and they should let it go. i don’t think kevin meant to for them to let go of the problem at hand. kevin said he was privy to the fighting. he was there. so my guess is he knows the gist of it. i think what kevin meant by them letting it go….was that sam and dean should let it go as in let it all out. not blow off the problem, but open up and talk about it. that kind of letting go. the spill your guts, discuss the problem and find a way to deal with them, letting go. they both promised kevin they would and knowing sam like i do, given past history and how he handles things, i think sam will eventually confront dean whether dean makes the first move or not. but since dean has, up until kevin released them of their guilt and told them to just let it go, been reluctant to acknowledge what he did to sam, i really do feel, like 99% percent sure, that when dean turned his head to talk to sam, it would’ve been more along the lines of dean telling him…kevin is right we should let this go. as in forget the whole thing and move on, which would’ve been the worst thing dean could say to sam at that moment. I just think that kevin’s true meaning of let it go got lost in translation. that’s just my thought on that.
i had another thought regarding the moc. like i said i don’t think the moc has really started to take affect yet. i know dean was extra bitchy to the ghostfacers, but i do think that ‘s in character with dean in regards to them. dean takes hunting and saving lives very seriously and the ghostfacers are in it for fame and money. they don’t know what they are doing and they put themselves and others in danger. they even got Corbett killed. so as extra harsh as dean seemed, it’s really not ooc for him to react that way around the ghostfacers. the only thing that seemed a little bit off in regards to dean was the deliberate way he killed thinman. dean has been open to killing humans before, so the actually killing isn’t ooc for dean. but this kill seemed like it was in slow motion, like he might have took pleasure in it. in that sense i think the moc might be starting to affect dean. i don’t think the moc is the reason dean’s not acknowledging sam’s pain and hurt and not facing up to what he did wrong. i think the moc’s affects are more along the line of dean’s penchant for killing. i think that’s exactly why Crowley picked dean to find the first blade in the first place. before I get in trouble noting, I am aware that sam kills to. it’s their job after all. they are hunters. but even dean has acknowledged that there are things he would do that scare him. he also acknowledged that they both keep ea. other human. he did see himself in the future and did not like what he became..
you know what I think and yes a lot of you don’t care, but i’m going to tell you anyway. I think Crowley had a lot of time on his hands in that dungeon. I think he was plotting and scheming for months. I think Crowley knew sam was watching him inject himself with kevin’s blood. I also believe Crowley wanted it that way. he wanted sam and dean to think he was addicted to blood. I think next week’s eppy is the reason why. i’m not so sure that Crowley’s condition isn’t all just a great big hoax.
I think Crowley knows sam and dean Winchester better than anyone. as a matter of fact he’s the only one that’s never underestimated those denim plaid nightmares. in order for Crowley to be able to kill all those people the boys saved, he would’ve had to do some serious investigating, like perhaps he read all about the Winchesters from either chuck’s books or online. as scary a prospect that is, it would enable Crowley to play the boys quite easily. I think Crowley planned all along on getting his hands on the first blade. I think he planned on using the Winchesters to help him. i think once Crowley learned what dean did to sam, Crowley knew dean would be his access to getting that blade. Crowley is well aware of dean’s history. he would know that dean’s been to hell. he would know that dean tortured souls. reading those books, Crowley would know a lot of what makes dean tick and he certainly would be aware of dean’s issues of self loathing. that’s why Crowley chose dean in the first place. given what dean had just done, the state he was in, and his knack for making deals, Crowley leading dean to cain was a cake walk. Crowley told dean that no one hated him more than he did. Crowley also told dean he was worthy of the first blade. i don’t think Crowley was paying dean a compliment. i think Crowley chose dean exactly because of his self loathing. not only that, but he has a darkness in him. he’s tortured and admitted to taking pleasure in it. if anyone would be worthy of handling the first blade, it would be dean Winchester. i think Crowley is using both Winchesters to get whatever it is he truly wants. he’s the puppet master and sam and dean are his little marionettes. i think Crowley and metatron should have tea and cookies and compare diabolical plans….:D
Nappi I had similar feelings about Crowely but I had a slightly different take. It has already been shown and insinuated that Crowely had read the books (shown) and had seen the rest of the Sam and Dean chronicles online (Charlie in the Wizard of Oz ep?). He knows about the connection of Sam and Dean to the Cain and Able story. So it would stand to reason that it would have to be Dean that could wield the first blade. He knows that the blade can kill Abbadon. I believe there was a reason he wanted Dean to call in Sam on this quest. The big double cross from Crowely is that Dean kills Abbadon but I think that somehow Sam’s life is vital to the equation as well. I have theorized that scenario elsewhere as a tattoo malfunction, but I don’t know if that is where this going. I just know that Crowely has a plan to off Abbadon as well as those denim clad nightmares. Yes there is a big double cross coming.
Crowley is an evil genius. he’s smart and he’s the only one who’s never underestimated the Winchesters. as a matter of fact, other than cas, i’d say Crowley knows the Winchesters better than anyone. out of the two of them, Crowley has always played dean more. he did it in the devil you know and i think he’s doing it again. when Crowley told dean he was worthy of the first blade, i never believed he said that because of his deep hidden fondness for the elder Winchester. no, i think Crowley knew dean to be worthy of the blade because of the darkness that lies within dean. i don’t doubt that Crowley knows that dean tortured souls in hell. Crowley is also aware of dean’s deep rooted self hatred for himself. given that Crowley knew about the people they saved so he could have them killed, i would venture to take a guess that Crowley read all about the Winchesters in either the books or online. i find it easy to see why Crowley chose dean to “help” him find the first blade which led dean straight to cain. given dean’s penchant for making deals and acting without thinking ahead, Crowley knew dean would accept the moc. he counted on it. Crowley wants something and he’s using the Winchesters…i think Crowley is the puppet master. that red smoked bastard is more than just a salesman crossroads demon. and Crowley’s “condition” in next week’s ep that has him kind of down for the count so dean and sam have to go after the first blade…i think Crowley let sam see him inject himself with kevin’s blood so that he could use it as a cover to get the boys to do his bidding…i’m telling you…Crowley is the puppet master and sam and dean are his little marionettes. 😮
Hey everyone, just a word of warning. Email subscriptions did not convert from the old commenting system to the new one. I’m still trying to work that out but in the meantime, if you want to get automatic emails anytime a message is posted in this thread you need to go to the bottom of the page and hit the Subscribe button. Thanks!
ETA: Oops, you can also subscribe by hitting hit email icon at the top right too! I’m still learning some new things about this system.
Also, if you notice, replying directly to a message is back! You can directly reply, or keep doing the old way and using message number. However, I’m not sure how much longer message numbers will be around. They’re pretty high! We may not need to display those.
Hi Alice, when I changed my post the notification of the change (which is a cool feature!) came up as my name and not my user name when I was logged in. Once I logged out it says my user name so maybe it is supposed to do that?
I like the new layout! Congratulations on an easy rollout – fingers crossed!
I know that anything for public view has been setup as username. If you click on your picture, you get a new profile that shows how many comments you’ve made and it lists your recent comments. That has the username as well. So I think you’re okay, but I’ll double check notification settings.
So I am trying to figure out how to direct reply and edit.
Never mind sorry! Figured it out!:)
It was pretty plain (as in flying anvils plain) that Harry and Ed’s dilemma was to mirror Sam and Dean’s. It curious though that once Ed fessed up that he seemed very eager to make amends, and although he did not directly apologize (“I’m sorry did not actually come out of his mouth), that it was pretty clear that he felt bad, acknowledged that he knew what he’d done was wrong and that he wanted to try and make things up to Harry. I hope Dean was taking note there.
Other than killing Abaddon, anyone have any thoughts on what Crowley is up to, and why Dean thought it would be a good idea to work with him? Does Crowley know how the Mark of Cain will affect Dean, and is he hoping it drives a wedge between the brothers? Or worse, ends up having Dean trying to kill Sam or vice versa? There seem to be a lot of parallels to the questionable decisions Dean is making in S9, and the terrible decisions Sam made in S4. Both brothers worked with a demon for what they thought was a good reason (killing Lilith, killing Adaddon). Sam claimed good intentions but that clearly was not the case, just as Dean has good intentions for wanting to off Abaddon, at least for now but at what cost. Just wondering what Crowley has up his sleeve as he always seems to be a few steps ahead of everyone else. Did he read something on the glyphs that Sam and Kevin had him translate that might let him go after heaven once he has neutralized Abaddon?
Oh I am sure that Crowely is going to be a major factor in what happens to the brothers. He didn’t want Dean to call in Sam for moral support. I think he has a plan to either off all three or make Dean his right hand in hell. I think killing Sam is going to be the catalyst for Dean to go completely off the rails. I can’t figure out where Castiel figures into the brothers story but there has to be a future connection. Maybe saving Sam in the final scene. I have asked this before but is Misha coming back next year? If not there is a lot of ground to cover to wind up his story.
[b]cheryl[/b] Someone mentioned today that we don’t know about Castiel and next year. Apparently he was signed for this season, and no announcement has been made about next season. I’m not a Cas fan, but I feel that this year he has a story that I care about and that actually works. So for the first time I hope he does come back next season, because I agree, there is a lot of ground to cover for his story to wrap up properly this season.
Nappi, what you said upthread about Crowly possibly playing Dean in a long con. I hope its true. Crowly is so much better as a villan and adversary. And Supernatural/Dean and Sam need a worthy adversary to fight against.
Can i ask everyone a sincere question? Can someone tell me what the downside of the MArk of Cain is? Dean goes dark? So what? I mean…Cain was killing demons. So if Dean keeps his kills towards serial killing humans, demons and (yes please) Angels…whats the downside? I dont exactly see one…unless its like thinking killing Lilith is good when in fact instead of stopping the apocolypse it started it and rose Lucifer. But…..Dean kills Abaddon….and then what? Crowly the current king of hell remains the king of hell. The status quo doesn’t change at all. Nothing worse happens. So ultimatly…unless Dean gets a God complex and starts killing innocent people him having the marc is a good thing.
The downside, at least as far as I’m reading it so far, is that Dean is slowly losing his humanity. In Season 5, that was a big part of what drove Dean to agree to get back together with Sam; they keep each other human. And, in this last episode, Dean was pretty cold blooded and calculated in the way he killed not-Thinman. I think that’s the first time he’s ever killed another human, at least where self defense wasn’t involved. Yes, killing Abaddon is a good thing, but is it worth losing his humanity, and will he ever be able to recover from it? In Season 4, everyone thought it was a good idea to kill Lillith, and Sam paid a terrible price for that.
I’m not sure if this conversation is still going or not, and this is my first time commenting on anything within the fandom, but I’ve been getting so frustrated with the choices these characters are making, that I”m going to vent. yay! 🙂
I honestly don’t know what the fandom is generally saying, because I’ve only just started seeking fandom out- I have only my views as a new fan to the show.
Sam and Dean are wonderful characters, and I love them both dearly. Never was I more punched in the gut watching this show than when Sam said – not apologetically, but matter-of-factly- that he didn’t look for Dean when he was in purgatory. That’s something that I don’t understand and haven’t come to terms with. And the brothers never really had it out over that. I mean… Dean hasn’t always made the best decisions, but they both have the moral compass of “I”m going to do what I believe is right!” and even if what they believe is right is the completely wrong thing to do, they’ve always known that they could trust the motivations of the other person. That the “right” thing will always lead back to protecting each other. That’s my theory on why Cas fits in so well- he has done stupid, stupid, things- but his motivations, his heart, was (almost) always in what they believed to be the best interest of others. They can forgive Cas, Cas can forgive them, because they understand the why, even if they don’t understand the what.
I wonder if Sam would have actually said no, if Dean had given him the offer to begin with. Maybe he would have. I don’t know. But I understand the desperation that Dean felt, and I understand the betrayal that Sam feels. It is my hope that the MoC(interjecting here to say that I LOVE tim omundson as Cain!) somehow brings it full circle- that without realizing the reversal, Sam is faced with a similar decision and chooses life for Dean. Not because what Dean did was “right” but because I do believe that his motives were pure. And yes, selfish, but I don’t think it’s possible for it to be anything else. Consider: Dean’s entire self-worth revolves around Sam. If he fails Sam, he has failed. Period. If he doesn’t fail Sam, he has succeeded. If he protects Sam, he has succeeded. If he fails to protect Sam, he has failed. So yes- it was, as Sam said, a selfish decision, but it always would be. Not consciously, though, which is why I think he’s so confused by Sam’s reaction. Sure, he knew Sam would be pissed, but he also knew that Sam would understand because Sam would do the same thing. He knew that Sam would understand his motivations. Except Sam didn’t. It reminds me of the Tara/Willow betrayal from Buffy. Tara was angry about the memory issue, absolutely, and had every right to be. But it was about more than that: It was about the fact that the one person she trusted most put her in the same position she’d been in at the worst time in her life– when Glory messed with her mind. Sam has barely recovered from having Lucifer in his head, and not knowing what was real and what wasn’t. He literally had satan in his head, possessing him, and he’s only just escaped that, and his brother, who he trusts most in the world, puts him in the EXACT same situation. I hope that makes sense…. It’s my take on why this particular decision is tearing them apart more than others.
I did read something that helped a lot, which was a *BRILLIANT* fanfiction where Sam explains that he’s genuinely believed Dean was dead and in heaven, having had no reason to think that he’d gone to purgatory, and why would he have tried to pull his brother out of heaven? That helped me be less peeved that he was all “oh, ho hum, my brother just helped save the planet. Enjoy purgatory! Ooh, hot girl and dog.” I will choose to believe that that was his thought process until canon proves me wrong.
Oh, also, Dean has been a total dick to Cas this season– WHY DIDN’T HE JUST EXPLAIN? *sigh*
okay, I’ve rambled long enough. 🙂 Thanks for reading! I’d love thoughts or counterpoints!
You are correct it is actually how the story went. Sam did not know that Dean was in purgatory. We the audience knew that but Sam didn’t. Purgatory was a place where monsters go not humans or angels. That was why in S8.1 Sam said “Dude your freakin’ alive”. Sam did think that Dean was dead and since bringing each other back from the dead by supernatural means had always bit them in the butt he chose to honor their agreement and let Dean rest peacefully in heaven. That was why in the church Sam was so desperate to make amends to Dean for failing him yet again.