Let’s Discuss: The Supernatural S9(?) Bitterness Thread
Comic Con is behind us, the Supernatural season nine spoilers teasers have been shared, the dust has settle a bit and the speculation has begun!
Just like prior seasons after Comic Con, frustrations that have been accumulating through the first eight seasons aren’t being addressed by the season nine info, and some fans just need to get it all out in the open. This thread is for you. No holding back, tells us under no uncertain terms why you aren’t happy, what you want to see addressed and why season nine spoilers teasers aren’t giving you those warm fuzzies. No holding back! What’s really bothering you and why? We’re here to share.
You really aren’t even limited to season nine. Is there still something bothering you from the first eight seasons? This is your place to vent.
Since this is a Let’s Discuss, we’ll be light on the moderation. Just please no insulting other posters, and no Sam vs. Dean stuff. I know Sam vs. Dean is a little hard to define, so I’ll keep it simple. No ripping Sam to build up Dean, or vice versa. No blatant character attacks either. It’s inevitable that the brotherly relationship is discussed, but just keep those guidelines in mind when posting.
For those of you happy fans, there’s a happiness thread too! This has always been a divided fandom, and we want to make sure we have all bases covered.
Okay, let’s discuss!
What did happen in Omaha btwn Bobby and Rufus? If it was over a girl, wouldn’t that parallel Sam not looking for Dean if it were true? Not bringing up that whole story as to why he did not look for Dean, we all have our own explanation or lack thereof, no revisit, please, but I always wondered what did Bobby do that Rufus could never forgive him for, That season 6 episode also had Dean telling everyone he was okay with everyone especially Sam’s bad. Now in season 8 we see Dean having to take his time,like most of the season to get over Sam not looking for him in favor of Amelia. There is bitterness, Rufus was also buried not cremated as Bobby respected Rufus’ religion and in Judaism cremation is frowned upon, so why hasn’t Rufus resurfaced? We know that Dean tossed the amulet, but his grandmother’s ring’s disappearance was never explained. The MOL is Sam’s work place but surely he must have a room to sleep in or is he back to sleepless Sam. We saw his bedhead so there must be a room. Okay, just a few minor, picky points. Season 9 teasers just don’t have enough details for me to be all fuzzy and warm but that doesn’t mean the season will not be a doozy. Still in shock with Edlund’s departure. HOPING that whatever Dean did to help Sam through surviving, is not so low that Dean’s character is tarnished beyond believability.
Well, if you insist . . . Sure, I’ll vent my bitterness for S9. First, thank you, Alice and moderators, for allowing me a safe space to voice my annoyance. I’ve been reading here, but I didn’t want to join in because I didn’t want to be the one to harsh the collective buzz, so to speak. I read somewhere that someone got criticized for being too happy—I’ve seen the same to those with a negative outlook. They tend to get the “Why don’t you stop watching?†or its concern troll cousin, “Gosh, I couldn’t watch a show that made me so frustrated.†So I’m glad to still love my show, contain my annoyance here, and be glad for the opportunity.
First, I will say that after the initial panel at Comic Con, I was pretty pleased. Sure, there wasn’t much Dean or Sam information, but I took that to mean that show was going to have the Winchesters as a united front against the factions of angels and curing demons. The idea of warring angels is interesting. Crowley being half-cured could be interesting, since I’ve felt Crowley was going pretty mustache-twirling, one-note villain as of late. Castiel taking humanity more stoically made sense to me, but it still leaves open the opportunity to bring in some of that 2014 premonitions from S5. Charlie started out very OMG-FELECIA-DAY-IS-SO-AWESOME-YOU-GUYS, but this season they toned some of that down and she started to become a real character. So all of that was good for me.
Then came the interviews and . . . sigh. Everything started to sound like déjà vu. Something’s wrong with Sam AGAIN. Dean is keeping a secret AGAIN. They’re going to be at odds AGAIN. Castiel is the comic relief AGAIN. Bobby, is back AGAIN. Bob Singer blew off the fact that they abused canon terribly at some points last year with a “Well, we’re going to write whatever we want. We hope you like it, but if not, we think it’s awesome.†Which is fine normally, but not with canon. That’s like a child turning in a paper riddled with grammatical errors and mistakes, and when you try to correct things they shrug and say, “Well, I’m happy with it, so it doesn’t matter.†Yes, it still does.
Sam deserves a human story. Show tried to give him one last year, but it was badly done and ended up rebounding back on him. Instead of fixing that, they went right back to their safety zone with the trials, and are going back to it again with a magical cure that’s going to change Sam. I’m thrilled that Jared is so pleased with this storyline, but when they were ticking off all the different Sams he’s had to play, it really makes me think that Sam as a person is lost in the shuffle, because he has to change to be whatever the PTB want him to be. I think that’s a little sad for Sam that they don’t seem to know how to write him unless they’re writing a new incarnation of Special Sam. I still hope that in between all these changes we still get to have human Sam somewhere in this, too.
And Dean . . . well, we all know what’s coming here, don’t we? Once again, Dean has no part of the mytharc, or a storyline that’s actually about him. Instead, Jensen’s stuck with the very sad “They’re opening doors, and . . .â€, which translates to “They might throw some things against the wall and see what sticks.†If Sam, Castiel, Crowley, etc, all have well thought out storylines to start the year that are actually about them, why shouldn’t Dean? Some might think I should have faith, but I had faith in S7. Dean had a secret about Sam that was dealt with around 7.7, and from then on he had no storyline that was actually about Dean, other than a very half-baked revenge storyline that never went beyond the opening scene of “We need to get revenge.†“We can’t yet, Dean, so let’s look at this case.†“Okay.†In S8, my faith was renewed by purgatory. Once again, this was pretty much done by 8.7, and once the trials kicked in Dean was put into the role of “guilty cheerleaderâ€, as Jensen so aptly put it. Here we’re once again starting with Dean having nothing to do storyline-wise other than revolve around Sam, and after that there is no plan. That is not okay with me.
But wait, there’s more!
The secret storyline is so played out. It makes Dean and Sam both look like gigantic hypocrites as they take turns flying off the handle because the other keeps a secret and keeping a secret because it’s in the other’s best interest, honest. It feels like show trying to stir the pot and keep the Dean vs. Sam wars going in order to generate interest and discussion. If not, they genuinely can’t find any new conflicts between the brothers? Really? Because just like Sam’s keeping trialberculosis secrets while accusing Dean of not trusting him, Dean wanting to build a partnership while keeping Sam health secrets pretty much show that they really haven’t matured at all, no matter what the PTB says. Again, I find it hard to let show get by with that hoary chestnut, “Well, that’s just the way brothers are/They can’t outgrow everything.†At this point, it seems like show’s parking them right back in S2. That’s not encouraging.
Bobby. Show continually cheapens his death by bringing him back over and over again. Honestly, I thought Bobby’s hunting Yoda schtick was starting to wear thin before his death, and I’m just not excited to see show bring him back again. I love Jim Beaver, but this feels like pandering. Bobby got a great send-off in Death’s Door. The ghost storyline was not good for him, and the innocent soul in hell-bit was nonsensical. I hope that this appearance at least makes sense, but if he comes back as a fallen angel I think my eyes might roll out of my head.
Now, all of this may turn out great. I may be pessimistic for no reason. But for me, show has nothing left in the good will bank, and giving out descriptions where it basically sounds like they’re recycling storylines again just doesn’t excite me. I watch with hope that I will be wrong—but I won’t be surprised if I’m not.
Okay, I feel better now. Thank you.
Almost everybody had a reappearance in the show or were at least discussed, except a few! Jessica, did she go to hell, what did she do there? Is she a demon? Or what.. Bella, is she going to reappear as a demon cause she did go to hell.. Route 666 lady, Cathey perhaps, Dean and she were apparently in serious Love and Dean told her he’ll visit her sometime! If he loved her so much, how come he never even talks about her!?
I love the show and will fanatically and happily watch even if it ends after 80 more seasons! I have never seen a show or movie better than supernatural! But something’s are a little… that’s it can’t talk against spn anymore!
I watched jeremy`s interview from last year in ComicCon & I was like which one of his words we saw in S8?
those words that we assumed probably is about Sam & Amelia`s storyline? but none of them did not happen
I think jeremy`s problem was he had not a one complete storyline for S7 & tell that story in 23 ep.,
it seemed to me he constantly tested his ideas & watched it worked or not
first half of the season I seriously worried about sam character then second half i worried about Dean character
the balance it must be important
one of the things that I fantasied about it!! was :
if they extended Henry Winchester story in at least 2 episodes & they delved to his past & create luxury & sort of scary story about it, like they gave S&D an heritage not just MoL, also something like treasure (gold, artistic things..) that made their life more real!(they still use hacked credit cards really?) & suits the social position of MoL
& one side note!
I start for zillion time rewatch the show & i have to say i like charlie/felicia day but it annoyed me she become first female on stage of spn panel in SDCC with just 3 episodes, when we had lots of important female character in past
in general I want they become more serious about the show 🙂
thanx for open up this discussions:)
No bitterness on my part (life’s too short), but a couple of things that bother me.
I love the character Bobby Singer but why do they keep bringing him back? IMO that cheapens one of the few great episodes in S7 when he died. I kind of get why they brought him back in Trial and Error but enough already. That being said, I’m willing to see how this all plays out – Jeremy Carved did a great job, especially considering what he was left to work with after S7.
As far as Castiel goes, the fish-out-of-water act has gotten VERY old; here’s hoping for some real character development in S9, not just using him for comic relief or looking for pie or Busty Asian Beauties for Dean.
I came away with what little I viewed of Comic Con (JA, JP, JC, and the Singer interviews only and just stopped out of sheer boredom), but those interviews left me parroting what ‘Just Saying’ has expressed, except to add that I was definitely left with the impression that SPN is very close to becoming “Being Human.†No mention of any new monsters; seemingly, Carver dropping the whole aspect of urban legends, monsters, traditional horror, road tripping, and everything now being entirely or somewhat human.
So the brothers chose each other in S8 (huh? Haven’t they always?), but now Dean has a big secret about What’s Wrong With Sam Version 9. Sam’s in dire straits, but will recover quickly. I’m really way past Sam’s miraculous illnesses and miraculous cures, and if Dean’s big secret is his storyline for S9, I hope it lasts longer than the 16 minutes and 20 second Purgatory story, which wasn’t his story at all.
Wait. I seem to remember in S2 that Dean had a big secret that didn’t last too long. He made a deal with a demon because of Sam, brought him back to life, and Sam was pissed off when he found out. In S3, Sam tried and tried to save Dean from Hell, but he couldn’t, and that started his downhill slide to the dark side. Is that the story we’re going with for the brothers in S9? Dean cures Sam, but at a price to himself?
Sam’s bent on curing every demon in the universe, thinks of the bunker as a workplace, while Dean Cleaver loves his new home. Those aren’t storylines – they are subplots for both leads. Curing demons is busy work. Cooking for houseguests is busy work, and neither are season long stories.
We’ll explore Cas’ humanness. Hello S5 and Comic Relief Regular Cas. Cas having to eat and go to the bathroom, and gets a little action. Riveting. I bet Dean cooks for him and counsels him on how to be human. Support character story.
Crowley liked getting in touch with his humanity, and we’ll explore that. Support character story.
We love Felicia Day and we’ll use her as much as we can. Support character story.
Bobby returns. I like Jim Beaver and like to watch him in other shows, but enough is enough of Bobby coming back. Not interested. Support character story.
Kevin continues to be hysterical and whiney. Oh, goody. A PMS’ing teenager reading angel tablets in the bunker between hysterical outbursts and suck-it-up motivational speeches from Dean. Support character story.
Based on Singer’s response to trashing canon and the fact that only the inferior writers are left with the show (save Carver, who can put a tight script together), I have no hopes that anything better will come out of S9 than what was shown in S8 and, IMO, that was the worst season of the entire series. (And should you ask; no, I’m not impressed with Robbie Thompson and his Charlie worship.)
I’ll catch the premiere and decide after that. I would just hate to have to give up the two iconic Winchester characters because the creative team is basking in hubris and milking a once-loved show for additional syndication episodes.
Not sure bitter is the correct word for what I feel. I think it’s a certain amount of regret and perhaps apathy.
I enjoyed season 6, and several episodes of season 7. Overall, I think season 7 dropped the ball, and the “big bad” just wasn’t so big or so bad.
But for me, season 8 was the worst. That first half “human story” for Sam just didn’t play for me. I’m not saying I don’t understand what they were trying for, – I’ve read all the analyses and all the rationalizations – but for me, it was the absolute worst thing they could’ve done with Sam. I sure don’t feel the same way about Sam and Dean as I did before this season.
Since the heart of the show IS SamandDean, nothing else is particularly important to me. The thought of more Canon-trashing makes me sad, and I really don’t need more Charlie or Kevin or Bobby, or even Cas.
Knowing that Sam CAN give up on his brother, and CAN knowingly leave others in the grasp of demons – regardless of how the writers try to spin it … changes how I feel about him. Being an admitted Sam!girl, that changes how I feel about the show. I can’t seem to muster the same amount of passion as I had before.
So yes, on second thought, I guess I am bitter.
St50—For me, the damage done this past season was more in the cover-up than in the crime, so to speak. I never really grasped how show thought they were going to be able to sell Sam’s decision not to look for Dean or to help Kevin as mature. It should have been really obvious that large parts of fandom were not going to buy it. I still think they could have recovered and redeemed Sam if they’d accepted that their original premise had been a mistake and written Sam a true redemption arc. Instead, Carver et al clung to the idea that Sam had done nothing wrong or should have no feelings of regret—Carver was still saying as much in spring interviews. Because the PTB held this attitude, Sam did, too, so we didn’t really get to see him do much beyond perfunctory explanations to Dean and a perfunctory apology to Kevin to try to make amends. He seemed to display little awareness of how his choices affected others and little incentive to admit his faults that contributed to the conflict and/or make the situation better. Sam would have been better served if show had course-corrected before their half-hearted attempt in the finale. He certainly deserved better as a character.
The failure of the human story was not in that Sam was human—it was in the fact that they did (inadvertently, if we go by how the PTB saw his actions) wrote human Sam in a way that disconnected him from the supernatural premise and from Dean as a brother seemingly without any qualms. Instead of realizing that was the reason the story failed, they abandoned human Sam and went straight back to their comfort zone of special Sam, instead of trying to fix what they’d broken. When backed into a corner in the finale, show went for the dramaz with a big emotional scene where Sam was suddenly eaten by guilt that we hadn’t really seen all season, and through a big gesture was supposed to have made up for his part in the conflict. Now the PTB is saying that everything is fine between Sam and Dean, and to me the finale certainly doesn’t support that. It might be conceived as a good start, but it was by no means a panacea that cured all problems.
I agree that the “mature†choices can and do change the way some are able to view the Sam and Dean relationship, because it does now look a lot less equal in what the brothers are willing to do for each other. That, in turn, can affect how fans see the show, and that is a real problem with S8. My problem is that I’m not sure the PTB see that, so it wouldn’t surprise me to see them repeat the same mistakes in S9. They’re repeating everything else, after all. 😕
Sam would of been better served if they had not gone there at all. Either there was very little understanding of Sam or very little understanding of the meaning of not having Sam look for Dean.
And once again Sam is on the wrong end of a sl that harms rather than enhance’s and again feeling guilt at the end when very few ever feel guilt for what they put him through. It just goes around in circles and we always seem to end up at the same point.
I like both season 6 and 7. But I’m with Ginger, in season 8 they had become the show bored. I will begin watch season 9 with some hope, but sincerely instead of give us scary monsters, they gave us characters without a clue. And Sam’s last speech, well, I have to say that now for me it is a little manipulative, it could be good but it is easier that it is going down to the hill and become abusive.
Sharon–I agree that it would have been better if show had never gone there at all. How they didn’t envision that Sam would eventually end up on the wrong end of a storyline that hurt rather than enhances is baffling to me, so we definitely agree there. I think the fact they refused to admit that they had was just as bad as giving it to him in the first place, though. I didn’t see Sam feeling any guilt under its sudden on-set in the finale, and after 22 episodes of Sam being fairly clear that he had nothing to be sorry about it rang hollow. I think if they had to have Sam not looking, having him be horrified that Dean had been alive all along and expressing that guilt upfront would have been much more beneficial to his character. But because show wanted to have drama between the boys for the first half we got the writing we did for Sam, and in the second half they seemed to try to run away from it like a scalded dog, preferring to distract us with special Sam and a parade of guest stars. That to me was just as harmful to Sam.
I do disagree that others don’t feel grief for what they put Sam through–Dean is fairly consistent in his apologies to me. But I definitely agree that show goes around in circles and we do usually end up back in the same place, with S9 seeming to set us up for more of the same. I’d love to be wrong, though.
And paloma, I have to agree–the speech in the finale did have a manipulative tint to it, with its “Who knows who you’ll trust next?” bits. But I think that’s what happens when the PTB never really thought Sam did anything wrong and are not especially pleased that they had to have Sam admitting to wrong-doing in the finale. I think the speech was passive aggressive at times because Carver was passive aggressive about having to write it, considering he was still touting Sam as the mature one right into spring interviews. Once again, a character catches the flack for the PTB’s issues.
I totally disagree, justsaying and paloma.
Sam has ALWAYS – for 8 seasons! – felt guilty about EVERYTHING and has ALWAYS felt himself to be “in the wrong” and “unworthy”. He even felt guilty for Jessica way back in season 1 (see Bloody Mary, the whole point of her appearing to Sam was that he FELT THE GUILT!)
The second half of season 8 got Sam right. I’ve always seen that he felt unclean, always felt that he’s let Dean down, always felt that no matter how hard he tries, he f’s things up. …. Sam has ALWAYS felt bad about his actions, even when he has ALWAYS tried to do the right thing. (and often failed).
The speech in the finale was bang on – It was not manipulative, not passive-aggressive. It was the true heart of Sam as I see him. Always trying so hard to support his big brother and feeling so inferior most of the time.
I don’t think EITHER Sam or Dean have done anything wrong – even the “not looking” was understandable, for a character who’s been through as much as both guys have. It just doesn’t fit with the stubborn, push-through-the-pain, never-give-up, save-the-innocents, obsessive Sam – and it needed one h*** of a lot more to have me “buy it”.
[quote]Sharon–I agree that it would have been better if show had never gone there at all. How they didn’t envision that Sam would eventually end up on the wrong end of a storyline that hurt rather than enhances is baffling to me, so we definitely agree there. I think the fact they refused to admit that they had was just as bad as giving it to him in the first place, though. I didn’t see Sam feeling any guilt under its sudden on-set in the finale, and after 22 episodes of Sam being fairly clear that he had nothing to be sorry about it rang hollow. I think if they had to have Sam not looking, having him be horrified that Dean had been alive all along and expressing that guilt upfront would have been much more beneficial to his character. But because show wanted to have drama between the boys for the first half we got the writing we did for Sam, and in the second half they seemed to try to run away from it like a scalded dog, preferring to distract us with special Sam and a parade of guest stars. That to me was just as harmful to Sam.
I do disagree that others don’t feel grief for what they put Sam through–Dean is fairly consistent in his apologies to me. But I definitely agree that show goes around in circles and we do usually end up back in the same place, with S9 seeming to set us up for more of the same. I’d love to be wrong, though.
And paloma, I have to agree–the speech in the finale did have a manipulative tint to it, with its “Who knows who you’ll trust next?” bits. But I think that’s what happens when the PTB never really thought Sam did anything wrong and are not especially pleased that they had to have Sam admitting to wrong-doing in the finale. I think the speech was passive aggressive at times because Carver was passive aggressive about having to write it, considering he was still touting Sam as the mature one right into spring interviews. Once again, a character catches the flack for the PTB’s issues.[/quote]
Manipulative ? passive aggressive. I am sorry but I could not disagree with those sentiments more . That speech was neither one of those things it was spoken by someone too broken to hide those inner emotions anymore and then some.
Eric Kripke once said Sam was driven by self hate from season 1 onwards and I can well believe that it is just a pity the writers have not conveyed that enough until the Great Escapist and Sacrifice in season 8 .So no I did not like they went there with Sam in not looking but that does not mean that I do not support Sam in other aspects .
Sorry double post 🙂
I’m trying to remain as spoiler free about season 9 as possible so I’ll have to skip some interesting articles that touch on that area….. 😕 Thankfully this article isn’t really all that spoilery, as long as I try to skip spoilery comments (which have been very vague, thank you all 🙂 )
But I just wanted to come and comment on both of your posts, st50, because you are really speaking my current mindset outloud. I feel exactly the way you feel, about seasons 7 and 8 particularly. Man, what a let down.
Season 7 was a snooze fest mostly but atleast Sam and Dean were recognizable. Season 8 had a lot goodness and freshness that season 7 didn’t but it totally fecked with the essence of Show (and it’s canon which also irked me to no end!) and didn’t even try to clean up the mess! Well planned is half done, they say, but I think here it was quite prefectly proven that either their plans weren’t all that great to begin with or they just completely dropped the ball on the whole execution, rushing to get to where they need to be in the end…
*a very very dissapointed sigh*
So, yeah, second everything you wrote st50. Thanks.
*disappears back to SpoilerPhobiaLand*
Perspectives vary, Sharon and st50, and that’s fine with me. For me, Sam declared himself guilt-free at the beginning of S7, and to me that followed him into S8. For nearly two seasons, that version of Sam was consistent, so it did feel to me like a clunk of changing gears when the “unclean” and “I have to die because of my sense of guilt that I’ve never displayed” speeches came into play. So to me, it did feel manipulative–not from Sam himself, but from the PTB. To me, pulling the guilt cards back out in the end after avoiding them all seasons made the emotion feel hollow–I don’t like it when I can see the strings. That’s why for me when the PTB say everything is fine now, I roll my eyes, because those last two episodes didn’t come close to addressing all the issues between Sam and Dean, for which they both hold responsibility. But that’s only my view–we can agree to disagree, and that’s fine.
re:#17
And Dean declared “everyone gets a free pass for everything done or will do”…. but then brought up all Sam’s past “betrayals”, and REPEATEDLY threw them in his face.
Let’s face it, just saying, the PTB screwed up both guys this year. And not in a way that’s easy to forgive and forget.
I agree, they didn’t come close to addressing their issues. They are NOT in a good place, regardless of the protestations of the boys having chosen each other.
As for the rest, yes, we can agree to disagree.
Agreed, st50–Dean’s behavior in the first half of S8 is another example of why Bob Singer’s response to ignoring canon should be disheartening. Twisting the characters to fit the story rather than molding the story around the characters is not a good thing ever.
Dean’s sudden return to grudge-holding didn’t fit any more than Sam’s not looking for Dean did. I think his advantage was that he was allowed to return to character and admit his wrongs by mid-season, while Sam did not. Well, until the finale, when care-taking Dean suddenly had to recap the lines he was forced to say by a spectre for the sake of dramaz. Again, seeing the strings being used to pull characters a certain way, or worse, to pull me as a viewer to a certain emotional response, cheapens the scenes and takes me out of the show. Yet another reason why the finale didn’t much work for me.
There is at least the common ground of feeling that the finale was not a magical Band-Aid that cured everything between Sam and Dean. They both still have legitimate issues with each other and legitimate issues to address in regards to their own behavior. However, I doubt any of it will be, because we’re going straight back to our S2/S4/S6/S7 “What’s wrong with Sam?”/”There’s a secret between the brothers” conflicts, proving that the vaunted “maturity” is nonexistent and show still likes to Xerox their storylines.
I hope to be wrong, though.
[quote]Perspectives vary, Sharon and st50, and that’s fine with me. For me, Sam declared himself guilt-free at the beginning of S7, and to me that followed him into S8. For nearly two seasons, that version of Sam was consistent, so it did feel to me like a clunk of changing gears when the “unclean” and “I have to die because of my sense of guilt that I’ve never displayed” speeches came into play. So to me, it did feel manipulative–not from Sam himself, but from the PTB. To me, pulling the guilt cards back out in the end after avoiding them all seasons made the emotion feel hollow–I don’t like it when I can see the strings. That’s why for me when the PTB say everything is fine now, I roll my eyes, because those last two episodes didn’t come close to addressing all the issues between Sam and Dean, for which they both hold responsibility. But that’s only my view–we can agree to disagree, and that’s fine.[/quote]
We can agree to disagree no problem from me. There are many things said by Dean that can be for the want of the word be seen has ‘hollow’ .
Addressing the brothers issue,s is for another day and another discussion.
Fair enough, Sharon. Thanks for the conversation. 🙂
Rick D–I think I’ll have to agree to disagree with you as well. While I believe that the writing in the finale definitely had Sam at the end of his rope and completely exhausted, it just didn’t over the course of the season set me up to believe that Sam’s main regret was, at any point that year, disappointing Dean. He never mentioned it once, never showed any sign of it, and even as far in as Taxi Driver was still denying to Bobby that he’d done anything wrong because he was sticking to some mythical agreement Sam and Dean have never followed ever. Therefore, the scene came off as manipulative to me, because it was supposed to evoke sympathy for pain Sam had never displayed during the season and lead to the belief that this magically fixed everything between Sam and Dean. Plus, “Who will you trust next?” did feel passive-aggressive to me. Sam–if you die doing the trials, he certainly won’t be able to trust and rely on you going forward, will he? I can forgive that because, as you said, Sam was pretty much decimated by the trials at that point (even remembering nonexistent trips to the Grand Canyon :-* ), but it still felt that way to me. It is my feeling that that tone can be contributed to Carver, who did not agree that Sam had anything to feel guilty about all the way into the spring. Perspectives vary, of coruse, and that’s fine.
I find it very hard to hold Dean not wanting to work with Sam against Dean, when Sam clearly didn’t want to work with Dean, either. If Sam can, as an adult, decide to walk away from Dean and we are to respect his choice, I’m not sure why Dean doing the same thing for about five minutes is any worse.
I do agree that trust is still a big issue between Sam and Dean. Sam’s decision to die to complete a task Dean never wanted him to do isn’t really going to make someone who has actively said he doesn’t trust anyone anymore change their mind. Sam doesn’t exactly trust Dean, either, as he keeps just as many secrets (my favorite was accusing Dean of not trusting him while he was actively working to keep the trials’ affects from him). So Sam and Dean love each other, but neither one really trusts the other to handle painful things, and they both have a martyr complex where they convince themselves that they’re keeping things form their brother for their own good. Which is why show recycling this very tired plotline is such a disappointment to me. We could maybe agree on that.
Mmmm, that second paragraph doesn’t feel as well-explained as I would like. Let me elaborate. When I say that Sam can make the decision to walk away from Dean, I am not referring to Torn and Frayed specifically, but this is certainly a choice we’ve seen Sam make before. Sam had made it clear for the first half of the season that this was his last rodeo, and after the demons were gone that he was done. And you know what? He had every right to make that decision. While it may have hurt Dean or worked on his insecurity issues that Sam didn’t want him around anymore, Sam had every right to determine for himself that this was not the life that he wanted to lead because he wanted his life to count.
Similarly, Dean had every right to reject Sam’s ultimatum and choose to work on his own. He doesn’t need Sam to do the job, any more than Sam really needs Dean to do the job. They are both able to function on their own–their year off from each other proved that. What they were missing was choosing to be with each other. In the beginning, it didn’t seem like that being with Dean was really Sam’s ultimate desire, and he has every right to that. By that same token, though, Dean has every right to decide that he would rather choose to work without Dean. The ending of the episode and the rest of the season was supposed to show that they had done just that. Whether they were successful there is open to interpretation, but I digress.
To make a drawn-out point more concise, I don’t find Dean saying he didn’t need Sam any more hurtful than Sam letting Dean know that he didn’t want to be there anymore and was only doing so out of a sense of obligation. They were only being honest, after all.
Hopefully that clarifies what I was saying there.
🙂
NP, Rick D, it’s been unpublished.
I don’t know if this is particularly kosher, given that you asked to have it removed, Rick D, but I just wanted to let you know I saw and appreciated your comment earlier.
Enjoy season 9, and stay happy! 🙂
The spoilers about the angel storyline sound intriguing, and exploring human!Cas has a lot of potential. Abaddon as a Big Bad could also be interesting, although I’m not sure how effective she’ll continue to be as a character with a different meatsuit.
But I couldn’t be any less invested in the spoilers about the brothers. I was thrilled when we finally got human!Sam during the first half of S8. It’s high time we got to delve into who he is as a character when he isn’t just a plot device in some flashy supernatural storyline. But that didn’t last and now, once again, it sounds like Sam is afflicted with supernatural issues. Which is not only just more of the same old, same old, but I also absolutely no idea who the real Sam is anymore. Which then makes me feel disconnected from the character.
And Dean…..well, we know plenty about his character so that’s not an issue. But it was sad how little the showrunners or Jensen had to say about Dean. He has a secret (about Sam), he gets laid, and he talks to animals. That’s not exactly on the same level as Sam and Cas’ big, upcoming storylines. I’m so tired of Dean having very little plot and existing mainly to support Sam and Sam’s story.
At least Jensen said Dean would be more determined and no longer the “guilty cheerleader.” Sounds like he wasn’t especially fond of Deanwise either.
At this point, for me, the show’s moving from “must watch” to “DVR and catch up on it if/when I can” TV -something I never thought would happen.
That’s fine, thank you ST50. I’m trying
Look at me, I’m legit on the bitterness thread! :p I don’t REALLY belong here, because I’m not bitter at all, loved S8 and am excited for S9 – BUT I was a little disappointed by the interviews/reports coming from Comic-con. Nothing sounded very fresh or exciting, unlike last year. I’m a little disappointed that the most they have so far is another “secret” which Dean made (of course), which will likely be interpreted as a betrayal at first by Sam (of course), and which will likely result in Sam going through changes (of course). I’m really, really hoping for a decent storyline for Dean after S8’s trials. I think his character deserves to have something like that, just like Sam deserved to have the Trials and all the emotional purging/brotherly love they brought.
Re: Cas – I’m extremely ambivalent about this new plotline – Cas-as-human. If they turn him into nothing more than silly comic-relief (which in the past has bordered on ridiculousness), and if Dean continues to harbor passive-aggressive resentment toward him, I will be annoyed.
The reason I’m not bitter, despite these thoughts, is because I believe it’s too early to be. I’ll probably still believe it’s too early to be bitter until S9E23. 😛 Supernatural has always delivered, in one way or another, despite the speedbumps. I trust it will be the same this season. Besides – it’s Jeremy Carver. I love what he did last season. And I expect to be wow’d this season too.
While I occasionally am less than thrilled about a story line or issue, there s no bitterness here. Any time I think about going there, I simply need to watch any other show on tv – inferior stories, characterization, acting, directing, production, as compared to this show. Bitterness turns to gratitude and the hope that we get many more seasons!
[quote]I totally disagree, justsaying and paloma.
Sam has ALWAYS – for 8 seasons! – felt guilty about EVERYTHING and has ALWAYS felt himself to be “in the wrong” and “unworthy”. He even felt guilty for Jessica way back in season 1 (see Bloody Mary, the whole point of her appearing to Sam was that he FELT THE GUILT!)
The second half of season 8 got Sam right. I’ve always seen that he felt unclean, always felt that he’s let Dean down, always felt that no matter how hard he tries, he f’s things up. …. Sam has ALWAYS felt bad about his actions, even when he has ALWAYS tried to do the right thing. (and often failed).
The speech in the finale was bang on – It was not manipulative, not passive-aggressive. It was the true heart of Sam as I see him. Always trying so hard to support his big brother and feeling so inferior most of the time.
I don’t think EITHER Sam or Dean have done anything wrong – even the “not looking” was understandable, for a character who’s been through as much as both guys have. It just doesn’t fit with the stubborn, push-through-the-pain, never-give-up, save-the-innocents, obsessive Sam – and it needed one h*** of a lot more to have me “buy it”.[/quote]
I agree with you 100% on all of this ST. Sam is not one to be manipulative, and he certainly wasn’t doing it in Sacrifice. He also wasn’t being passive aggressive. He was dealing with the reality of what was in front of him (the only way not to let Dean down was to complete the trials and, as a result, die) and the (at that moment, and with good reason) very clear understanding that he would never be forgiven by his brother for the betrayals both real (for which Sam has repeatedly tried to atone) and imaginary (soullessness? Really? At this stage? at THAT moment?)
I am new to the SPN Fandom. I started watching the show last summer on Netflix and have been hooked since the pilot episode. I have watched each season at least three times since then thanks to TNT, Netflix and Hulu. The one thing I want to see is the return of the solid relationship between Sam and Dean from seasons 1 thru 3. Season 7 seemed to repair that relationship but it was torn to hell again in season 8. I was so happy with the season 8 finale that I really cried. Now I am disappointed that the brothers will be at odds again. If seasons 9 & 10 are really the end of this show, I want to see the brothers relying on that central theme of family first.
We have watched these two characters grow up and grow apart and come together again. In real life, most siblings live separate lives and I know it must be hard for two grown men to live in each others pocket ALL THE DARN TIME, but they must rely on each other to survive. It is time for them to suck it up, forgive it all, trust each other with the truth (no matter how painful) and move on.
I am excited to see Cas as a human but I think the spell will be reversed by the end of the season and he will regain his grace. I like the comedic tones with Cas and the brothers. This show is really serious and we need to laugh sometimes.
All in all, I cannot wait to see season 9. I think Carver did a great job as show runner and I am looking foward to the new stories for this year!
I agree with you eilf and ST50…I feel that Sam was totally sincere in that scene. If other fans saw his speech as manipulative then that is their right, but IMO they are projecting their basic dislike of Sam onto the character’s motivations rather than seeing what was actually presented onscreen. In order for one character to manipulate another in a drama, then that character must want something from the other like when Ruby manipulated Sam to get him to open the gates of hell or when Metatron manipulated Castiel to eject all of the angels from heaven. These were true manipulations with a goal in mind. I saw nothing of this sort of subterfuge going on in the scene between Sam and Dean. I believe that Sam was being totally sincere and we were hearing (for the first time in FOREVER) what Sam was actually feeling from his own mouth. He wasn’t making demands of Dean or asking him to do anything, he was just opening up all of his bottled up feelings. Dean gets to do that all the time on this show and the ONE TIME in all of season 8 that Sam gets 5 seconds to discuss how he feels? Oh, he’s just being manipulative….geez.
Also, I want the issue about the pendant that Dean threw away in season 5 to be revisited. Sam gave a pendant to Dean while they were children and Dean swore that he would wear it always. After Dean and Sam returned from heaven and had to report to Cas that God would not intervene in the impending Apocalypse, Dean threw away the pendant because it appeared that he lost faith in God and in Sam. Sam appeared genuinely hurt by Dean’s decision to throw away the pendant. Since Sam sacrificed himself at the end of season 5, Dean has never once apologized to Sam for that hurt. I think the writers should try and tie up some of the loose ends from prior seasons. I want to see the anti-Christ child named Jesse from season 5 and the monster kid (Dean killed his mom, Sam’s friend) return for follow-up story lines.
st50, eilf, and E.-completely agree with all of you that Sam’s speech was absolutely sincere. He was sick and worn to the bone and he exposed his inner self in a way that he might not have done otherwise!
I’m sorry that my opinion seems to be so offensive to you, E. I’m glad that you acknowledge that it’s my right to feel the way I do, but I’m not sure how you can say that it’s because I dislike Sam and am trying to somehow smear him. I don’t assume that people who dislike things that Dean has done automatically dislike Dean and project their dislike onto him when his actions are criticized or because they see something I don’t. I may not hold other people’s perspective, but I don’t think that somehow qualifies me to say why they think the way they do.
I don’t know if it will do any good to refute this, but I do like Sam. At the same time, I do think that he’s just as capable of being manipulative or passive aggressive or broken or heroic as anyone else. I think he displayed all of these things in that scene, because it was written with several layers. I commend Jared for bringing all of those layers into his performance, frankly. It’s a hallmark of a good character and actor to show nuance in a scene, don’t you agree?
I do think very much that Sam had something he wanted to gain from Dean at that moment–forgiveness, trust, or simply for Dean to not be upset at him anymore. Do you not think Sam wanted those things and was trying to gain them through completing the trials? I do, and I think his explanations for why he wanted to go through with the trials conveyed that. I think he was completely sincere in that scene–to me, that doesn’t negate the fact that he very much wanted forgiveness and trust from Dean at that moment. I also do not think that we hadn’t heard from Sam throughout the season how he felt about various things–what we didn’t hear throughout the season is how he felt about Dean. That was a writing decision, and I’ve already explained above why I think this sudden on-set of guilt came about and why waiting until the 11th hour made it less effective to me in the posts above, so I’m not going to go into it again.
To me, I am discussing the writing and the scenes and explaining why it wasn’t as effective for me. I also said why I thought the writing reflected badly on Dean in the finale when they had him spout out his list of wrongs. I don’t think pointing that out means I dislike Dean. I think it’s possible to discuss how writing I find less effective may reflect negatively on the characters without disliking the characters. Don’t you?
[quote] I believe that Sam was being totally sincere and we were hearing (for the first time in FOREVER) what Sam was actually feeling from his own mouth. He wasn’t making demands of Dean or asking him to do anything, he was just opening up all of his bottled up feelings. Dean gets to do that all the time on this show and the ONE TIME in all of season 8 that Sam gets 5 seconds to discuss how he feels? Oh, he’s just being manipulative….geez.[/quote]
E there is a quote from some tv show (I don’t remember which one) which goes “anything you say will be taken down, twisted round and used in evidence against you” :-* and I feel that this sums up Sam’s plight in a nutshell. There is a very distinct portion of the fandom which seems to be determined to do this with Sam, no matter what he does, no matter how he atones, no matter what is done to him and especially no matter if ANY other character has ever done the same thing.
I have seen it a fair amount on this site, but as I understand it it is way worse on other sites. I truly do not understand it. I mean I understand discussing the rights and wrongs of situations that the characters get into but Sam and Dean’s transgressions are not judged impartially and certainly not using the same rulebook.
I like both brothers, it annoys me when I find myself being forced to say but Dean does/did that too! 😕 Why is it when Sam does X it’s interpreted in the worst possible light and when Dean does the self-same thing it is either ignorable or ‘bad writing’.
It gets my goat.
just saying, I don’t believe that my comment posted any names and it certainly wasn’t directed at you specifically or at any other poster on this site specifically. It was directed at the nature of the comments themselves, one that I have seen many, many times both here AND on other sites. In light of these types of comments, I have offered my counter opinion (as I clearly stated in my comment this is my OPINION) as to why I think some fans feel the way that they do about Sam. If this reasoning does not apply to you and your feelings on the subject, then feel free to disregard my opinion. This was in no way aimed at you, or your specific post. I am sorry if you were offended, but I am in no way singling you out specifically in this.
Hi eilf, yes… this does seem to happen over and over and over again! Very frustrating. I end up feeling very defensive of Sam because of it too. 😥
E, I apologize for misunderstanding, but when someone addresses the motivations behind certain posters’ opinions on the same thread as their posts, it seems a reasonable inference that they are talking about that poster and those posts. Otherwise, I’m not sure why the point would even need to be made. Perhaps that’s why it’s best to discuss the opinions, not the posters, don’t you think? Then it runs the risk of becoming personal, and that’s not a good thing on message boards since it only leads to misunderstanding.
Elif–I think fans are going to view things through their own lens, no matter what the fandom or what the situation. Some fans are going to be partial to one character or the other (and it does go both ways)–that’s human nature. I agree that there’s little point to “But Dean did this!” or “But Sam did that!” rebuttals. Some fans are always going to think that Dean is the golden child, and some are always going to think Sam is. It’s best to discuss the issue, find common ground or agree to disagree, and move on, at least in my opinion. So I suppose with that, I shall take my own advice, agree to disagree, and wait for a new subject to come into discussion.
[quote]Also, I want the issue about the pendant that Dean threw away in season 5 to be revisited. Sam gave a pendant to Dean while they were children and Dean swore that he would wear it always. After Dean and Sam returned from heaven and had to report to Cas that God would not intervene in the impending Apocalypse, Dean threw away the pendant because it appeared that he lost faith in God and in Sam. Sam appeared genuinely hurt by Dean’s decision to throw away the pendant. Since Sam sacrificed himself at the end of season 5, Dean has never once apologized to Sam for that hurt. I think the writers should try and tie up some of the loose ends from prior seasons.[/quote]
Hi Alicia I am with you on the sadness of the loss of the ‘Samulet’ but there is little chance of it being included in anything like an apology (and maybe it isn’t even necessary – Sam tends to understand the motives of why people do the things they do). I agree with you about how much it hurt Sam to see the amulet discarded and the understanding that it wasn’t just Dean’s faith in God that had been damaged but his faith in his brother. When Dean stops putting people on pedestals and so being able to see their feet of clay (I guarantee you that is a mixed metaphor) it will be better for everyone (especially Dean, he causes himself so much heartache!). It doesn’t have to be a moment of apology, instead a moment of clarity.
[quote]
Elif–I think fans are going to view things through their own lens, no matter what the fandom or what the situation. Some fans are going to be partial to one character or the other (and it does go both ways)–that’s human nature. I agree that there’s little point to “But Dean did this!” or “But Sam did that!” rebuttals. Some fans are always going to think that Dean is the golden child, and some are always going to think Sam is. It’s best to discuss the issue, find common ground or agree to disagree, and move on, at least in my opinion. So I suppose with that, I shall take my own advice, agree to disagree, and wait for a new subject to come into discussion.[/quote]
Just saying. I realise that my post came up after yours, but I hadn’t seen yours at all before I posted it. However I do find it interesting that you actually have both the things that I mentioned in my post in yours. You go into minute detail about Sam’s transgressions and accept them all as you have on several other occasions and you go on to dismiss Dean’s behavior as [quote]I also said why I thought the writing reflected badly on Dean in the finale when they had him spout out his list of wrongs. [/quote]
Can you see why this is a problem?
Elif, in my posts I also believe that I discussed why I thought the writing had reflected badly on Sam. in posts #9, 12, and 22, I said that the writing for Sam was problematic, and I feel like I did trace those problems back to the finale scene. Due to the problems of the writing over the course of the season, the finale scene didn’t ring as authentic to me. So I suppose I don’t see a problem in stating that the writing for Dean in the finale was problematic, because I also stated why I felt the writing for Sam was problematic. I guess I also have to disagree that I went into minute details about Sam’s transgressions and did not link them back to the writing.
And now for something completely different! I agree with you, elif, that Dean’s tendency to put the people he loves up on a pedestal is bad both for him and for the people he loves. While it’s understandable to be angry or hurt at the people you love, Dean tends to take it to extremes at times because his ideal image of that person is shattered when they hurt him. It started with John, of course, where Dean learned to turn away from the faults of people he loved in order to try to keep them happy and around, and it’s continued in every important figure in his life. While understandable, it’s more than time to break that pattern. As you said, it would be healthier for him and for the people around him.
As for the amulet itself, I’m not sure if it will ever make a return, or even be mentioned again. I’m not sure it needs to be in order for Dean and Sam to reach new understanding of each other. What is needed, of course, is for the PTB to be willing to let Sam and Dean grow and change in their relationship, and right now the S9’s spoilers aren’t leaving me hopeful that that will happen. I would love to be wrong.
I would love to see the Samulet come back. It was such an iconic symbol of the relationship between the boys, – so much of the love and trust between them stored up in that one charm. And a symbol of so much of what was broken from season 4 on.
Bringing it back would perhaps signify the return of some of that faith and trust.
My biggest fear, if it were to come back, would be that some other character (angel or otherwise) would be instrumental in its return. It needs to remain something between the boys alone.
I agree that any return of the amulet should be between the boys alone. A few things have cropped up recently have made me wonder if it is a possibility. 🙂
[quote]Elif, in my posts I also believe that I discussed why I thought the writing had reflected badly on Sam. in posts #9, 12, and 22, I said that the writing for Sam was problematic, and I feel like I did trace those problems back to the finale scene. Due to the problems of the writing over the course of the season, the finale scene didn’t ring as authentic to me. So I suppose I don’t see a problem in stating that the writing for Dean in the finale was problematic, because I also stated why I felt the writing for Sam was problematic. I guess I also have to disagree that I went into minute details about Sam’s transgressions and did not link them back to the writing.[/quote]
(it’s ‘eilf’ not ‘Elif’ by the way, I know the l and i are not that easy to see 😀 ) Yes I am aware that you have discussed the bad writing for both characters. Here is my interpretation of what you meant in those posts, of course I may be misunderstanding your points.
In #9 you say Sam wasn’t acting guilty enough for his wrongs and needed a redemption arc. I don’t agree that he needed a redemption arc, this makes it a bit difficult for us to discuss this point don’t you think?. You couldn’t see that he was sorry enough for his transgressions. What I see is a character who is recovering from a nervous breakdown that he wasn’t allowed to communicate, and also who had words put in his mouth about his motivations for the entire season without ever being able to contradict the narrative of other people – as far as I am concerned that was the bad writing there.
In #12 you don’t see that Sam had any guilt throughout the season. Well , no, Sam wasn’t allowed SAY he had any guilt throughout the season but with the sort of empathy for Sam that you have for Dean it would have been clear that he was in a bad way for most of the season. And as ST mentioned he has been consumed with guilt pretty much all his life. (Have you seen the dog shaming meme? Maybe it should be like dog shaming and he should wear a sign around his neck)
In 22 you again say that Sam wasn’t guilty enough all season.
So to sum up your points in those 3 posts are that the bad writing for Sam is that it doesn’t make him look bad/wrong/amoral ENOUGH and (from your last post) the bad writing for Dean is that it in any way makes him look bad.
So yes it doesn’t look like we are going to agree on this.
I find when I have had enough serious posting I go put pictures up on the pretty page it makes me happy again. 🙂
just saying. I have said repeatedly that this was my opinion, and I was, in fact addressing the issues and NOT the posters themselves. You can continue to feel as though I have singled you out in some way or made a personal attack on you when I have not; I really don’t have any control over that sort of thing. It was not my intention, nor actually what I did do and I will say again that I am sorry if you were offended, but my opinion stands as does my right to make that opinion. I will say, again, that my comment was to address repeated sentiments of this kind in this thread by multiple posters here AND similar sentiments on other threads. I am sorry that you have decided to take my comments so personally, but they were in fact not even generated by your comments so much as some comments I saw on another site. It is coincidence that the thread topics are similar.
ST50. I would love it if the Samulet played some kind of role in saving either Sam or Dean this year. Wouldn’t that be the most awesome thing ever?! Dean has to locate the Samulet to undo what the “cure” has done to Sam or Sam has to find the Samulet to save Dean from the effects of whatever he sacrificed to this “cure” to save Sam. Oy, does that make any sense?
I apologize for the name faux pas, eilf. You know, at school I once wrote an entire paper interpreting the poem “The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock†and called him J. Arthur Prufrock the entire time. Imagine my face when I received the paper back with that note written across the top! 😳 It’s a sad habit, getting a name wrong and then vocalizing it in my head to the point where it sounds so normal I never really look carefully at the name wrong.
Now I see the problem I had: I interpreted your earlier post as meaning that I gave Dean the cover of bad writing not extending the same courtesy to Sam. Now that I see this is not the point you were making, so I will try again in the spirit of trying to fully understand each other. However, I again don’t feel all that comfortable discussing motives behind posts rather than posts themselves. It makes me feel a bit like I’m on trial for thinking the wrong thing here, but that’s my issue and not yours.
#9—I don’t think it’s that I wanted Sam to act guilty, really—I wanted the finale to make the season that came before it. I didn’t need Sam to wear a hair shirt and be guilty—I wanted him to acknowledge that he’d made mistakes dealing with Dean just as Dean made mistakes dealing with him. I recognize redemption arc is probably overstating it—really, the whole thing to me could have been solved at the beginning with a “I’m sorry you went through that and I couldn’t help.†To me, when I hurt someone’s feelings, even inadvertently, I find that a simple apology can go a long way towards smoothing the situation over. Yes, Sam had a breakdown (though show did him no favor by not putting that onscreen), so there is reason to empathize. But I do think that Sam was in full control of his faculties well before the finale, and in the spirit of wanting to repair his relationship in the second half, he could have voiced his regret at “letting Dean downâ€, as he phrased it, a lot earlier. I do attribute this to the writing in the first half, when show wanted conflict, because they did the same thing with Dean, having him bring up grudges that as far as we knew he’d let go of two seasons ago. In the second half, they ended up saving it all for the finale. I agree that it was problematic that show didn’t let Sam talk about his motivations beyond “I fell apart and I ran†in the first half, and that he didn’t really get to voice his regrets while Dean and he were repairing their relationship in the second half. We can agree on that.
#12—Now, this one I feel like I did say that show didn’t address any of this with Sam until the finale. I do think it came across as Sam refusing to admit that he had anything to apologize or make amends for, which is problematic in a two-way street argument, as I believe Sam and Dean’s conflict was. I do think that the writing failed him because if Sam was eaten up by letting Dean down, I feel like they should have done a better job showing that before the finale. I admit Sam was in a bad way for much of the season. So was Dean. Dean behaved badly in the front end, whether writing driven or not, and he had to make amends. I feel like he did in admitting to his wrongs, admitting to his jealousy, trying to take care of Sam in LARP, and in taking care of Sam during the trials. I don’t feel like they gave Sam the same opportunities. If Sam felt shame, he should have been allowed to express it before the end. So we can agree on that as well.
#22—Again, I think the point is that the guilt Sam as feeling in the finale was basically pushing him to be willing to die in the finale. If that guilt was so crushing, I feel like it should have been visible before the finale. I don’t think it’s a matter of wanting Sam to feel guilty as much as feeling that the season’s writing did not support the assertions the finale was making.
Sorry, too long.
So no, I disagree very much that my point is that the writing didn’t make Sam look bad enough—on the contrary, I think showing some regret before the finale would have been good for Sam’s character. I don’t think it makes Dean look bad when he apologizes to Sam for mistakes he’s made or when he’s hurt Sam. I think it makes him look like a caring brother. I think Sam was not given that opportunity for much of the season until the finale, which I think we agree was not fair to his character. He should have been allowed to explain and to show the regret from the finale sooner. I also disagree that I was not pointing out how the writing didn’t help Sam as a character.
I’m not sure why we have to agree to disagree on this. The question seemed to be the rationale behind my comments, which I’m explaining. Are you saying I’m not being honest about my rationale? I don’t know, but if you want to leave it at this, I’m willing to do so. I hope this explains my position better, and if not, I suppose we will have to accept our common ground and let go of the rest.
You’re right, E, I do fail to see how
“If other fans saw his speech as manipulative then that is their right, but IMO they are projecting their basic dislike of Sam onto the character’s motivations rather than seeing what was actually on screen.”
is not about posters, but that is my failing. You know your own mind better than me, and you are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. I apologize again and will leave it at that.
Re #49
I like your thinking, E! I’d go for either of those scenarios.
That’s ok Just Saying, I am so unconfident about getting people’s names right that I can often go for a long time without using them at all – and of course that leads to more problems than it solves.
I appreciate your clarifying what you meant in those posts. And I take your interpretation on board. And you are certainly entitled to your interpretation of events (I think you can be expected to find people arguing with you about them in the future, as I expect to happen to me too, it’s the nature of the beast)
I pretty much across the board disagree with your interpretation but you already knew that 🙂 . I think we are both going to have assume that our common ground is limited.
I am sorry that you are worried about people having a particular perception of you, it is more that we get to know each other, after all this is just to be sociable and talk about something we all love yes? For instance I would like to say that I don’t take sides with the brothers but that just wouldn’t be true and every other poster here would laugh at me if I tried it. So I admit it – I am Sam-girl leaning (leaning quite heavily) but for me it is often because I perceive Sam to be an underdog. I actually want for Dean that he isn’t so unhappy and insecure about how other people feel about him because I loves him too *sniff*. Hopefully this is where we are going with the story.
Anyway I am glad to leave it rest. In fact I wish that all the blame game could be put to rest among all the fandom. I am heartily sick of it.
Thanks for your clarification 🙂
*I see I took too long writing my post, and now I see your other comment. I think I have already responded to the points in your latest post here so I will not go into it any further.*
EDIT so you know how you post something and then realize it is not at all the right thing to say no matter how it sounded in your head? That just happened to me so I am going to edit this. I apologize in advance if anyone took what I was saying before amiss, and if it screws up responses. My bad.
Thank you for your understanding and patience, eilf. I appreciate it.
I have no problems with agreeing to disagree. Limited common ground still counts for something, though, and that’s enough to make me happy. 🙂
I don’t have a problem with people disagreeing with me–I may respond or clarify further, but I like to think I’m pretty consistent with being able to agree to disagree or acknowledging that perspectives vary. Discussion wouldn’t be nearly as much fun if everyone thought the same thing. I admit, I do have a problem when I think people seemingly attach negative motivations or ill will to my words when that isn’t my intention when I’m just participating in a discussion or sharing my views.
I do think it’s important to separate personalities from posts. it’s not possible 100% of the time, as we’re human, but I think it’s important to try. To me, there’s a difference between “Well, that’s a Dean-leaning fan” and “Well, they just hate Sam and refuse to look at anything positively.” One is an acknowledgment of a lens or preference, which I can easily admit to, but the latter is usually negative label prefacing a dismissal of that person’s opinion. I have no trouble owning my bias, but I don’t think I should be coded as lesser because of it. I’m not saying that was anyone’s intentions here, but I do think trouble starts when the poster is the subject of discussion, not the issues. Maybe we can agree on that and let it rest?
I agree that discussion is always good, and the blame game really isn’t. Though even what constitutes the blame game can be open for interpretation, can’t it? 😆 But I agree, let’s let it all rest and move on.
I think your goal for Dean is lovely–I too want him to be able to see that he’s loved and valued and learn to stop taking others’ mistakes so personally. I would love for Sam to be able to let go of his burdens and finally feel as if he’s proven himself enough, because I think he does put enormous pressure on himself at times, even beyond the pressure others put on him. He’s heroic for doing so, but it hurts him. I also would love for him to be able to reach out to others and not have it end horribly, and make some close friends of his own outside Dean. Granted, even those friends probably will bring about horrible moments (see Dean and Castiel), as that’s the nature of show, but I really want him to be able to nurture some new relationships and not feel as if they’re all going to end up dead. I definitely understand why he’s so reserved at this point, given Jessica/Sarah/etc, but I do want him to find some peace. Jared says Sam has accepted the loss of normal, but I don’t want him to just accept, I want him to find something that does make him happy.
I feel confident in saying as a Sam-leaning fan you know Sam better than me, so I’d love your perspective. What do you think might ultimately make Sam happy and at peace?
Oops, I just looked up and saw you’re editing. I jumped the gun then. Sorry? I’ll check back later.
Possible spoiler from Comic con interviews…..
Question: Why are the showrunners so convinced that Sam is treating the bunker more like a workplace (less like a home) while Dean gets snug and cozy, when they’ve worked so hard to convince us that Sam wants a “safe,normal” home life again. Wouldn’t he more likely be the one to try to set down roots ANYWHERE?
[quote] I have no trouble owning my bias, but I don’t think I should be coded as lesser because of it. I’m not saying that was anyone’s intentions here, but I do think trouble starts when the poster is the subject of discussion, not the issues.
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Yes, that was actually how I thought the piece I took out could be interpreted. I actually meant the exact opposite, that knowing someone’s bias doesn’t at all mean that they are coded as lesser, it just means that you can see where someone is coming from.
[quote]
I feel confident in saying as a Sam-leaning fan you know Sam better than me, so I’d love your perspective. What do you think might ultimately make Sam happy and at peace?[/quote]
Well, not to be too flippant (I am totally being flippant) but I think that what would improve Sam’s life is a bed to sleep in.
And with that I am heading off to mine. 😀
Again, thank you for the clarification, eilf. I think we’re on exactly the same page there. Have a good night’s rest.
st50, when I read that spoiler I wondered the same thing. I would have thought that Sam, who seemed so desperate in S8 to put down roots, would have been just as eager to look upon the batcave as home as Dean was. I wonder what Sam is searching for (other than a bed 😆 ), especially when at the same time they said that Sam has accepted the idea that he won’t get normal. This certainly seems like the best opportunity he’s going to get for a stable homebase to come back to, at least at this point.
I wonder if show is going to elaborate on that Comic con statement any further.
#8 st50, I agreed with your entire post but especially, [quote] Since the heart of the show IS SamandDean, nothing else is particularly important to me. The thought of more Canon-trashing makes me sad, Knowing that Sam CAN give up on his brother, and CAN knowingly leave others in the grasp of demons – regardless of how the writers try to spin it … changes how I feel about him. Being an admitted Sam!girl, that changes how I feel about the show. I can’t seem to muster the same amount of passion as I had before. [/quote]
That is the problem for me too. I adored this show but right now I just can’t muster the same passion for the show post season 8 that I had pre season 8. As a Sam girl it makes me upset that they would do this to his character without even bothering to explain WHY he would do such a thing. As if it doesn’t matter. And as you expressed so well. [quote] I don’t think EITHER Sam or Dean have done anything wrong – even the “not looking” was understandable, for a character who’s been through as much as both guys have. It just doesn’t fit with the stubborn, push-through-th e-pain, never-give-up, save-the-innoce nts, obsessive Sam – and it needed one h*** of a lot more to have me “buy it”.[/quote] And as a Dean girl it makes me upset that they would add to that whole inferiority, abandonment complex. It could be easily fixed but they didn’t give me any reason to believe that are planning on dealing with it either. I did get some hope from Jared’s excitement and knowing how he feels about the character and the brothers’ relationship. But I’ll admit I’m probably reaching.
#45 Totally agree that if the Samulet comes back it has to be between just the brothers. Otherwise it would take away the meaning of it.
#57 On your question, I think anyone (or all) of Racestaffer answers could be used as a reasonable answer. The cynical part me thinks that the came up with that answer after so many fans asked the question.
#9, just saying, Although I disagree with several parts of your posts (which we had debated previously). I did still agree with [quote] The failure of the human story was not in that Sam was human—it was in the fact that they did (inadvertently, if we go by how the PTB saw his actions) wrote human Sam in a way that disconnected him from the supernatural premise and from Dean as a brother seemingly without any qualms. Instead of realizing that was the reason the story failed, they abandoned human Sam and went straight back to their comfort zone of special Sam, instead of trying to fix what they’d broken. [/quote] Or rather this is what I’m afraid they did. That they saw they fan reaction to Sam not looking, but instead of dealing with that mistake head on they just hoped the Sam girls would be pacified because he was front and center of the myth arc. But since that was never the issue they didn’t really fix the problem they created. (What is so frustrating is that is would be incredibly easy to fix. But I’m still hoping nappi is right and the plan was always to tell us this season what happen to Sam.) I also wonder if him having the most boring storyline ever with the vet, while Dean had the incredibly cool Purgatory was the reason for dropping that storyline. Like apologizing for giving Sam a crappy storyline by taking away Dean’s cool one. Probably not but I’m irritated about how quickly that was dropped with such a quick resolution.
I really want this secret to be something cool that connects Dean more to the mytharc. Something more like the sold his soul secret than the Amy Pond secret. I like the idea of him taking up his hated witchcraft (or something like that) in order to help Sam. But not just something that adds to guilt with no real action connected.
I am also extremely irritated about the trashing of lore when with very little adjustment done to the stories, they could have left it intact. I’m sick of the excuse that it because it’s season 8. But they did a really good job for SEVEN SEASONS. But they eighth one well THAT was the straw that broke them.
Quoting Kelly:
“I really want this secret to be something cool that connects Dean more to the mytharc. Something more like the sold his soul secret than the Amy Pond secret. I like the idea of him taking up his hated witchcraft (or something like that) in order to help Sam. But not just something that adds to guilt with no real action connected.”
“I am also extremely irritated about the trashing of lore when with very little adjustment done to the stories, they could have left it intact. I’m sick of the excuse that it because it’s season 8. But they did a really good job for SEVEN SEASONS. But they eighth one well THAT was the straw that broke them.”
Loved your whole post, but these two snips really stood out to me. I couldn’t agree more. I really want this “secret” to involve Dean actively in the storyline, and not just for a few episodes either. I want him to be an active participant meaning that this secret is something that he is doing or actively involved in instead of him just sitting there and not talking about it. It has to have repercussions for him in some way as well, otherwise it’s too passive to be interesting. This proposed storyline has potential I think if they handle it right. AND the canon trashing thing! Ooooh, it just burns me when the storytelling gets so uncreative and sloppy like it did in my much hated “Taxi Driver,” which for me is the single most destructive episode that Supernatural has ever done. There were so many good things in it too, but the canon re-writes were so sloppy and ill-considered IMO.
Many fans are worried about the “secret” causing conflict once again between the boys, but I have to say that I am looking forward to it. I’ve never been adverse to a little conflict, and I am an angst addict as well, so I look forward to the fighting. 😉 In season 6 after Sam got his soul back was a period on the show where the brothers were totally in sync with one another, they were getting along and there was no conflict between them and I though it was soooooo boring!!! They will always have something brewing between them I think, at least to some degree.
Honestly, I was also surprised that show-runners mentioned that Sam didn’t see the bunker as “home” because that is what I felt as well. Dean was thrilled to have a home base, saying he’s never had one. I always felt that Sam only considered that he has had only one home….one 4 wheels and a gas guzzler. Raised in a car that will never truely belong to him. I don’t know if that’s what was intended, but just IMO.
Thisoldbag, I was confused by the whole ‘Sam only sees the bunker as a work place as well.’ We know he must have a bed somewhere… we saw his epic bedhead. And I am also not sure whey TPTB keep saying that Dean has never had a home before, because he did for the first four years of his life. Its Sam really who’s never had a home before; growing up in motel room and the Impala. He was stationary for a time with Jess and Amelia, but there has been no indication in the show that Sam felt that those areas were home to him.
I like Racestaffer’s take on things; Sam is unwilling to mix home and hunting the way Dean is. I wish that they would clarify that though. It comes across on the show (at least to me anyway) that the writers don’t really care about Sam’s feelings of home. They gave Dean a bedroom and showed us how he decorates it, but Sam? We have no idea about how he might function in that bunker other than to work. How might Sam decorate his room???? Outside of research and hunting what does he like???? We know that Dean likes to cook. What does Sam like to do??? There is just so little personal information about Sam, and I’d like to see that change.
#61 – racestaffer – Thanks for your interpretation. I can somewhat see where Sam would want to separate work and home. It just seemed to me that for someone who supposedly desperately wanted the white picket fence life, and who had supposedly (again!) come to terms with never having that, would want to settle and find a home SOMEwhere. And that home would then be (once again) where Dean had settled.
#62 – Kelly – I always love your posts. Good to see you posting again. Maybe we’ll both find that passion again in season 9… Sam will once again be the Sam we recognize, and Dean will once again let go of his abandonment issues and hurt, and the guys will be united and involved fully in the true-to-canon mytharc. One can dream, right?
I am not bitter…not really. I don’t see (as others have stated) that S8 did damage to Sam’s character. To me, it did far more damage to Dean’s character and even some to Bobby’s. perhaps because am a Sam-old-bag and I get his POV.
Dean is a dick, that’s who he is and I actually love that about the character. But S8 he took it to a new level beyond the “stop talking and giving orders and just LISTEN!”
Dean is, after all, the only one that’s given a member of his “family” permission to die & endure eternal torture. Dean is the only one who put the Impala under a tarp (oh, the horror!). And, when Sam showed up it was Dean who, at first, refused to go back to hunting, electing to stay with his new family. And, it was Dean that apparently never read the papers while all the weird was going on that year, thus abandoning his “mission”. And it was Bobby that was angry at Dean for “looking” for Sam as he felt Dean needed to have a normal life, or deserved it. But what does that say about what Sam means to Bobby & Dean?
Still..not bitter, I understand most of this went with the perception theme. What scares me (not bitter) about S9 is what I’ve heard about Castiel. He will be human, yes, I get it, i’m ok with it. But, this guy, as an angel, tried to kill Sam. Yet, Dean “appeared” to be angrier about Cas not trusting him than he ever was about that. For Dean it’s all about trust, just not his trust in someone but more about if others trust him. I really want him to realize that it goes both ways. I know there will be different views on this, but my point is that Dean has always been most disappointed when one of his family doesn’t just trust him (or follow his orders) and elects to do what they think is right instead, when instead of giving orders and expecting trust, he should actually “trust” someone else. I am not speaking about “expecting” someone to do what they were ordered to do, what they were raised or trained to do, as a General would, I’m speaking about true trust (or faith, as Sam has in Dean) which is the opposite of thinking Sam will screw things up and he will need to be there for him. It is knowing that Sam will not screw things up and still being there for him (but not in a babysitter kind of way). This plays into Dean’s need to be needed and he needs to get over it.
So not bitter really, but I fear my expectations may be too high so I will just enjoy what I get come October.
Thisoldbag–While I disagree with some of what you’ve put forth here, I have to agree that the end of S5 was very odd to me. Why was the decision of what Sam was going to do suddenly put on Dean’s shoulders? Why did Sam seemingly leave the choice all to him? If show really wanted to show that Dean and Sam had repaired their relationship, I think it would have been better to show them agreeing on Sam’s strategy after a collaborative process. Instead, show presented it as the only possible solution, but Dean had to totally make the last call in order to fulfill his arc of learning to support Sam the right way, i.e., agreeing to stand back and let him sacrifice himself. “I think I can save the world, but I won’t do it until you say yes” was a pretty passive bit of writing for someone like Sam, but it was there so Dean could prove that he was “finally” loving Sam the right way, as Kripke stated, by agreeing to do whatever he wanted. It fit that storyline, but it’s still bizarre when I think about it.
Re:S6, I think it would be hard for Bobby to be mad at Dean for not looking for Sam (even though it’s canon that he was) when Bobby knew he was already out. I always wondered why they had Bobby know about Sam being topside. 1) It made him look cruel for not telling Dean. You don’t let people think their family is dead “for their own good.” 2) It made Bobby look like a pretty bad father figure to me, since he knew Sam and didn’t find it a gigantic red flag that he wanted to let Dean continue to think he was suffering in hell. Bobby holds some responsibility to me for the amount of torture Sam suffered in hell–if he’d told Dean immediately, Dean would have known something was wrong sooner and possibly been able to save Sam’s soul sooner. I think S6 was really the nail in the coffin for me thinking Bobby was any better a father figure to the boys than John.
I think the difference between Dean giving up the life and Sam doing the same in S8 is Kevin. There wasn’t a specific person Dean knew was in peril (other than Sam, whom he was trying to get out). The Winchesters’ main mission, for all intents and purposes, was over by S6. At the end of S7, Sam knew Kevin was out there in danger and he knew that the Leviathans were still running around leaderless (though it’s hard to blame him for ignoring the leviathan–the PTB apparently forgot about them). But I think the other answer is that show wanted there to be dramaz between the boys so they ignored previous things the boys said and crammed them into these positions. We can, of course, agree to disagree.
I think show always undercut what Castiel had done to Sam by having Sam immediately forgive him. They needed to do this, of course, because what Castiel had done was heinous, and if they wanted to bring him back later as a good guy it wasn’t going to be enough for Castiel to profess his regret, which he did. Sam had to be forgiving, and he instantly was. Therefore, show was free to focus on Dean and Castiel’s issues, since for some bizarre reason they seem to separate Castiel as “Dean’s character” a lot of the time. I, too, find it weird, though.
Too wordy again. Sorry.
I definitely agree that trust is a two-way street, and I think that’s something both Winchesters need to learn. Both Sam and Dean lie to each other and keep secrets, but seem oblivious to how their own actions may not inspire trust. I don’t think Sam has any more faith in Dean than Dean has in Sam a lot of the time–he keeps things from Dean because he doesn’t have faith that he can handle them. Dean keeps things from Sam because he doesn’t have faith Sam can handle them. They both need to stop trying to protect each other with their secrets and really listen to each other.
I agree with you that Dean only believes that his family will want him around if they need him, and that needs to change. I think that’s part of the reason he threw himself into care-taking Sam during the trials (other than the fact that show had no storyline for him so giving him the guilty cheerleader role their substitution). Sam made it clear that he didn’t need Dean anymore in the first half of the season (which he had every right to do) and thus be leaving him as soon as the job was done. Dean sees this as a sign that if he’s not needed, he’s not wanted. When Sam started feeling the affects of the trials, Dean felt helpless and thus went right back to the role he’d been given as a child–taking care of others so they’ll need you and stay with you. I think that’s another reason why the trials storyline wasn’t very good for the boys–it reinforced old roles that Sam and Dean need to get past.
Don’t get me wrong–I agree that Dean definitely needs to leave this mindset behind. He needs to realize that he can be wanted for who he is, not what he can do for others. I hope the writing next season leads us to a place where Dean can see that, and I hope that good brother that he is Sam will help him with this.
I’m not sure I have high expectations come October, as S8 and the spoilers have set the bar low for me. But I’d like for them to rise above, and I worry that they won’t do that.
[quote] Or rather this is what I’m afraid they did. That they saw they fan reaction to Sam not looking, but instead of dealing with that mistake head on they just hoped the Sam girls would be pacified because he was front and center of the myth arc. But since that was never the issue they didn’t really fix the problem they created. (What is so frustrating is that is would be incredibly easy to fix. But I’m still hoping nappi is right and the plan was always to tell us this season what happen to Sam.) I also wonder if him having the most boring storyline ever with the vet, while Dean had the incredibly cool Purgatory was the reason for dropping that storyline. Like apologizing for giving Sam a crappy storyline by taking away Dean’s cool one. Probably not but I’m irritated about how quickly that was dropped with such a quick resolution.[/quote]
Kelly don’t know if it will help but I am pretty sure they had 5 complete episodes made and 1 in progress and say 2 being prepped and a few more already planned before the season ever started. And the Purgatory storylines were done pretty much by the time the season started. I don’t see how they could have reacted to the fans? I think Sam leaving Amelia and Benny dying for Dean were also well set up in advance. Maybe if Amelia had been popular and likely to stay around Benny wouldn’t have died either but I think those were the only points where the PTB even remotely paid attention to the complaints. And even then the storyline for the season was choice – this part being that both the guys potentially had something apart from each other and they eventually chose each other. The Benny death story was also probably too good to pass up especially since it isn’t hard to resurrect him.SPN may do some weird things occasionally but cutting out stuff that people liked to balance out stuff they didn’t is not really a great commercial decision.
On a really, really practical note I think that the purgatory filming was, well, purgatory for Jensen and he just couldn’t do both the regular stuff and the out in the woods stuff. Jared suggested in one of the newsy videos (maybe on Zap2it?) that most of the next few episodes should be return to Purgatory flashbacks and Jensen woke up from the thousand yard stare he was doing so he could glare at him 😀
#70 – racestaffer – I agree with a lot of your post.
Sam does withdraw. He removes himself from situations until he can think things through for himself. He does not tow-the-line for John like a good little soldier. He NEEDS to analyze every thing. John didn’t seem to realize that. I think Dean knows it, and respects what Sam is doing when he “withdraws” most of the time. Not that it doesn’t piss him off, but I think he understands.
As far as the beginning of season 8, I’m not sure exactly how the “settling down” started – or exactly how Sam was reacting prior to 8.01. I don’t know that he was in withdrawal mode there. Although I suspect he was doing a lot of analyzing. We didn’t see that, though. We saw him react to hitting a dog, and settle in to handyman mode while caring for that dog. Amelia came after that.
I do agree that Dean coming back didn’t take away his pain. It certainly had to have accentuated it, since Dean insisted on calling him on “leaving him for a girl” repeatedly.
I also agree that Sam saw the trials as the next “way out” from hunting. An ending of sorts. And yes, he wouldn’t settle in completely to a temporary place. It was more like a motel room at that point.
However, the trials are over, they were never completed. The PTB have claimed that Sam has accepted he’s not going to have that “normal”…. and yet they still say he’s not finding his “home” with Dean in the bunker. If he has accepted that he’ll NEVER have that normal, and yet has always craved some sort of a safe haven (home), why would he not now settle in? They seem to suggest he knows this is the best he’ll ever get, and accepts that, but still uses the batcave as a workplace?
The thread is aptly named as that is what I feel about season eight; bitter.
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At the end of season seven I was so looking forward to the continuation of the story, of perhaps Sam getting into Purgatory to find his brother or of something happening to Sam while on his own with Dean getting out and finding that Sam was in trouble and it was Dean who had to look for him.
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In other words anything other than what we did get.
Sam’s not-looking ruined the whole season for me but it was the writer’s fault not his, just as the rest of the season was so underpar as to hit the ground.
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Purgatory went nowhere, Amelia went nowhere; Naomi went nowhere.Closing the gates of Hell went nowhere, which I’m glad of!
The secondary characters took over; Krissy and her boring teen team, the useless Kevin who translated the Leviathan tablet in two seconds yet the Demon tablet was dragged out for a whole season, Charlie whom we practically got more back story on than Sam; Castiel who was in no way necessary to the feeble plot-line; not to mention the cascade of canon trashing that went on in nearly every episode and the cheap one-shot of throwing in Bobby!
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Building on established canon is good, but not ignoring disrespectfully what went before.
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Carver has been around the show for many seasons now; he wasn’t a newcomer and had written two of the best episodes on SPN, so he has no excuse for the mess of season eight. I expected so much more from him.
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Unfortunately he seems to be continuing down the same road.
The basis of SPN was a road trip across America killing the urban legend monsters and saving people’s lives, not dallying in the Bunker and getting cozy with angels and demons.
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So yes, I am bitter, because up until the end of season seven, even if at times uneven, I loved the show.
I tried to rewatch ep 1 of season eight for a second time, just to see if I had judged it wrongly, but it was even worse on re-watch because I already knew what the rest of the season would bring.
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So thanks writers for ruining the wonderful unique show that was Supernatural.
Just saying – I agree the conclusions and characters are much more complex than I stated, that’s one of the reasons I love this show so much. Although I can attribute some actions and consequences to cause and effect or action and reaction, the Winchesters are a not a two sided coin; they may react the same way but they react individually. They are both victims, hero’s, flawed and humans. They are accountable for their actions and take responsibility in their own way.
I, however, view faith and trust as two connected but separate reactions. Faith is automatic. Dean had faith in his father, that’s normal, that’s how he was raised. It’s an automatic response, but he can choose not to trust him if he wants to. He does not have that faith in Sam, that is, again, how he was raised. But he can choose to trust him.
Sam, however, has faith in Dean, it is again, automatic. Dean says he’s a monster and whether he realizes it he believes him automatically. But he can and has chosen to not trust him on occasion. This too is normal, part of what most of us can go thru before breaking away and making our own choices.
They have both, at times, chosen to go against what their faith tells them, and both choices are difficult. What I would like to see is that both of them realize they are not the least of the two, nor the best. Individuals that complement each other, oppose each other then compromise to get the job done without judgement. That includes understanding that each of them are good people who do their best and sometimes it’s not going to be the right choice but it is understood to be the best solution at the time.
I don’t blame or hate one character over another although my upbringing leads me to a better understanding of Sam and why he does what he does. I enjoy the dynamic, the contradictions, the stories and I am pretty sure that will continue. But, I also know from my own POV that no one ever gets forgiven for hurting my family, no matter how much we hurt eachother. I once had this connection to Dean but now I guess that’s really the part of me that’s bitter, that I just can’t relate to his reactions. If anyone refers to my brother as “an abomination” no matter how many times he’s made (major) mistakes, they would know my wrath, at least verbally and unmistakenly especially if my brother were standing right there to hear it. While I’m not hating on Dean, I am actually hoping that this long drawn out IMO assassination of his character will lead me to a better understanding of where he is coming from and why he does what he does, in a similar manner that I get from Sam.
I think I’ve stopped making sense now, I must stop doing this on a tiny keyboard, makes it difficult to go back and edit, so forgive my typos again. Thanks for the discourse, I so enjoy other points of view.
Thisoldbag—I definitely agree that Sam and Dean are both very complex characters. They are both heroes, victims, stubborn bastards, and compassionate beings, all at the same time. I further agree their actions and reactions are connected much of the time, but at the same time they are still both accountable for their own choices.
That said, I’m not sure trust is so clearly a choice while faith is so clearly automatic. I think you can choose to place your faith in something, and I think that you can decide “I’m going to trust him/her/it†and still be wary. Now, Dean automatically had faith in his father to be there for him, I agree. I think Dean stopped trusting him a lot sooner than he lost faith in him, and these days show seems to bounce him between understanding his father (8.12) and being very angry at his faults, depending on what the episode calls for. As for Sam, somewhere above it was referred to that Dean puts people on pedestals and has trouble coping when they fall. I agree that this happened to Sam, and a lot of it is unfair to Sam. On the other hand, I think it’s impossible to dismiss that some of Sam’s actions have broken trust between them, and that that can be harder to get over than just saying, “Well, I’m going to ignore all of that and trust him again.†So I think Dean does fight to keep the faith and trust, but old roles and normal brotherly issues interfere. I think it’s inaccurate to say Dean doesn’t have faith in Sam, but I agree it’s not the same kind of reliant faith he had in John.
I agree Sam has faith in Dean—some of the time. I think Sam has a bit of a pedestal problem of his own when it comes to Dean. He spent a very long time putting Dean in the invulnerable big brother box that I think he still has a hard time seeing him out of that box. So when Dean steps out of the forgiving, unhurtable big borther role, Sam starts to lose faith in his abilities. We saw this in S4, for an example. He has his moments of not trusting Dean—he didn’t trust Dean to be able to handle seeing him go through the affects of the trials, so he kept it from him. I think this is normal for brothers, though, and I think there’s an understandable gap between his mental image of Dean growing up and the reality of Dean that leads to his gaps of faith and trust in his brother.
I further agree that Sam and Dean do try to keep their faith and trust and that opposing each other doesn’t always necessarily mean the loss of faith or trust. It means they are choosing the best solution they see at that time. I think my problem is just that they have Dean and Sam make the same choices and revisit the same hurts so many times that the impact is fairly lost on me at this point.
Dean’s lack of addressing Castiel’s actions in regards to Sam is a glaring omission. I I definitely agree on that. find it hard to believe that it doesn’t fall into the category of “all the damage you’ve done†when Dean ticks off why he’s angry at Castiel, however. Show has a problem with not addressing specific hurts caused by characters at times, and it is detrimental, but they have a pattern of doing this. I think the “abomination†line, said while Castiel was drunk, was pretty much a joke, and I can’t find it in me to take it seriously. I can understand why others might feel differently, though. Honestly, though, I think if you’re waiting for an explanation of why Dean doesn’t speak specifically regarding Sam to Castiel in show, I just don’t think it’s going to happen. It happens because that’s not what show wants to deal with. That’s why they have Sam blow off what Castiel says and does, so that the audience can say, “Well, if Sam doesn’t care/forgives him, then it’s all rightâ€, and they can keep the angst surrounding Dean and Cas focused on Dean and Cas. I don’t think it’s a good idea or good writing, but I don’t think there’s a reason in canon that this has not been talked about. It’s just not what the writers want to write. Maddening, but there it is.
I think you did very well for a tiny keyboard. 😆 I’ve enjoyed the discussion, too!
[quote]
The basis of SPN was a road trip across America killing the urban legend monsters and saving people’s lives, not dallying in the Bunker and getting cozy with angels and demons.
[/quote]
I definitely agree with this, isleofskye. I like the concept of the MOL, but I’m not much of a fan of the batcave.
Answering to # 76 st50
X
I too like the Men of Letters idea, just as I love anything positive that comes the brothers’ way, but it does detract from the original vision of the show and makes it somewhat more static especially for Dean.
X
I mean there is only so much a first-class hunter like him can do in an enclosed space however comfortable.
Keeping him locked away is a shame; he looks so good ganking monsters! 🙂
#68 & #69 Good points and I agree “just saying”. Hopefully since JC said the basis for this season is “consequences” and will be more character driven he is going to try and answer some of these issues. (and good luck to him with that, I guess. Lol) This show gets more complicated every year and that is one of the reasons I stay interested. I also believe JC knows he will be responsible for the last season eventually and wants to tie up some issues as we go along.
Racestaffer –
I’m not sure exactly how to respond to your post.
First, I don’t care for the batcave, in part because I fear it limits the role of the Impala, and road-tripping has always been a huge part of Supernatural.
Without going into personal details, I can assure you that I have far from a “limited world experience”. I am quite sure that I have experienced a larger part of the world than the vast majority of people.
I never believed in the white-picket-fence as a necessary view of normal, however, I do believe that Sam did think that was what he wanted for quite a while. I also think that a “home life” of some sort is a large part of not feeling like a “freak” for Sam. Hence not understanding his aversion to settling down, when it appears they’re going to be in the bunker for the foreseeable future.
As far as your hunting=killing freaks discussion…. I’m lost. Sam has always (well, except for his reaction to Benny) had a much more grey view of monsters and killing than Dean, and has always been ready to look for another way out – a cure, if you will (remember Madison?). And yes, his own circumstances had some impact on that, but I believe it came about also from his incredible ability to connect and empathize with humanity. (Which also has been sadly missing this season).
I just want to say one thing that made me go huh, which was the whole Meg digging Castiel thing. If a man threw me across a fire and used my body to walk on over it I would not be all into that:)
In general I am pretty happy with the way things are in the show currently. Sacrifice was one of my “holy crap that’s cool!” moments and I thought it was brilliant, and I loved the trials and MOL story lines. However there were a few things that have made me…maybe bitter is too strong a word here.. peeved…. about this season.
Firstly is the “Sam didn’t look for Dean” debacle; and yes, I know, it’s been hashed to death but…. Ugh! Why? WHY? We still don’t have a clear answer for the direction that the story took. It has done worse things for Sam’s character than the demon blood story line ever did and it was totally OOC to boot. At least with the demon blood I understood what he was doing and why he was doing it despite the fact that I figured that it would bite him in the ass in the end. But this? Nothing… nada… we have no idea why Sam didn’t look for Dean other than he (maybe) thought Dean was dead; although he had no reason to think this, and voiced conflicting information on his certainty (after all Dean could have been off eating tacos in the next state) and all probability lead to Dean being whisked off to Purgatory. Every fan in the kingdom surmised that Dean had gone to purgatory, so I am not sure why Sam couldn’t or didn’t come to the same conclusion or why he didn’t even check. Furthermore he left a vulnerable, new to the world of the supernatural, teenaged profit to twist in the wind without help. Way to make Sam look like an unsympathetic and selfish jerk. 😡 I am hoping (begging!) for some retcon in season 9 on this that helps to explain in a non-dickish way, WHY! Something sympathetic and reasonable so that his decision makes any kind of sense at all. So, not quite bitter (although I seem to be close) but definitely peeved, very very peeved.
Secondly, the dropped purgatory story and the Dean “guilt that wasn’t guilt” plot. Ugh. We all know Dean puts guilt on himself unnecessarily and normally I am ok with this, it’s part of his “weight of the world on his shoulders” charm. But he’s angsting and guilting all over the place about Cas and it turned out to be nothing, nada…. What a let down. Why couldn’t Dean have done something in purgatory that he should really have felt bad about? Something to make the guilt real? But no… he “remembered wrong.” Yuck. Purgatory had all the earmarks of awesome… it was visually stunning, scary, action packed and PTSD Dean was fantastic, edgy, dark and dangerous. It went nowhere. Why wasn’t purgatory and it’s lasting effects felt throughout the season and affected more how the brothers interacted? It would have made sense for Sam to want to keep the trial side effects secret from Dean if Dean was still acting erratically from his time in purgatory. I love me some protective Dean, but he really didn’t have much to do in the back half of the season, even me, a confirmed Samfan could see that.
Thirdly…. Amelia… nuff said. Double Ugh!
Forthly… Taxi Driver and the wholesale and casual trashing of established canon for no other reason than convenience and a lack of creativity. This gets a triple UGH! all in caps.
#82 – E – 100% agree with Every. Single. Point.
Are you listening, Carver???
Ok racestaffer.
I understand your point now. I don’t agree, but I can see your point.
And here’s another thing: again, not bitter so much as fearful….My biggest concern for season 9 now that Ben Edlund has left ( 😥 😥 😥 ) is that the remaining writing staff is not up to snuff enough to carryout the complex story lines that we’ve come to expect from this show. Robbie Thompson has been pretty good over all I think, and has a way of working in those moral and emotional threads we’ve come to expect; (something Kripke, BE and Sera Gamble were masterful at) and JC has the chops for sure (Mystery Spot!)… but the rest of them seem to fall flat and rely on established TV convention and cliché; following that tried and true scriptwriter’s formula (something this show has NEVER done unless it’s to mock it or turn it on its head) and many of them can’t seem to weave a tail in that special Supernatural way with all of it’s layers and metaphor… telling the story without actually telling the story. I am concerned that many of the current writers won’t be able to (or haven’t) achieved that kind of depth. So, even though the actor’s are excited about season 9 and it seems as though the concepts are there, I fear that the execution will be lacking due to the general weakness of many of the current writers. I really hope that JC can wrench the best writing possible from these folks, and I desperately do not want a repeat of Man’s Best Friends with Benefits and Taxi Driver. We shall see.
E–Your post #82 is absolutely a thing of beauty. All of those things ranged from problematic to catastrophic on the scale of detrimental to show. Some of them can’t really be fixed (Taxi Driver and Amelia cannot be unseen), but it’d be nice if the Sam not looking and Dean purgatory storylines could be resolved more satisfactorily. The only problem there, as you point out, is that I’m not sure show any longer has a stable of writers that can be counted on to fix things. Thompson and Carver, maybe, but the others? Maybe it’d be better to leave in the past than to leave it to the hands of the writers of Friends with Benefits and Taxi Driver. Talk about between a rock and a hard place.
just saying… Taxi Driver just about gave me an aneurysm it was so sloppy and uncreative. The show had created the awesome MOL library. Why couldn’t the answers to getting in and out of purgatory come from there along with all of the other information that they found on curing demons there instead of suddenly and with no warning or continuity have reapers the living could see who can be hired out to ferry people into Purgatory whenever they want. It made no sense and it made Sam’s not looking for Dean doubly egregious seeing as how easy it turned out for Sam to get in and out of purgatory. What will that writing team (who shall remain nameless even though we all know who they are!) do with the big secret this year and ‘the cure’? I shudder to think but hope for the best.
I was re-watching The Great Escapist again recently and was struck anew by how masterfully plotted it was; just brilliantly complex and so incredibly clever and detailed. I mourn Ben Edlund’s loss. 😥 . One brilliant episode by JC each season isn’t going to cut it unfortunately.
st50 – Whew! I feel better now. Disagree… cool… now worries. In fact, speaking of that…
E – Fringe fan that I am (LOL-sigh), I actually disagree with much of your post. There is a difference between unsatisfying and OCC. While I was disappointed the Team handed me another “stupid cliff-hanger” then didn’t pony up the payoff of brother-love angst, I don’t see Sam’s not looking for Dean as inargueably OCC. In fact, isn’t it ironic that so many fans complain about how little insight they’ve been given into Sam’s thoughts and feelings… and at the same time they complain he’s acting OCC? If you don’t know what Sam’s thinking and feeling how can you possibly determine whether his behavior is in character or out of character? {WEG}
E–I know, right? The continuity issues alone in that episode were enough to give a fan a fit. Hell? Whatever, no big deal. What have Sam and Dean been complaining about? Bobby was there for a year and he’s totally fine! Reapers? Oh, don’t worry about the rules–this one’s rogue! Amazing that a random demon can lead to one who can lead you to purgatory, when the King of Hell and the Sheriff of Heaven spent one whole season trying to access it. Purgatory? Easy to find, navigate, survive, and escape. You’re right–by making things so easy, it did make you wonder exactly how fast Sam could have rescued Dean if he’d just, you know, asked a demon for directions to a reaper who could easily get him in and out of purgatory. Poor Sam–why would those writer set him up like that? Ugh. I think the nameless writing team should have been banned for writing after that debacle–though I thought they shouldn’t have had a chance to write that episode since they should have been chased away with torches and pitchforks after Friends with Benefits.
And yet they’ll continue on, while Ben E is gone. He wrote so many fantastic episodes I think his absence is going to be pretty noticeable from here on out. :sigh:
Erg… “no”, not “now”
And OoC, not OCC. That’s what I get for not logging in!!!!!
[quote]I just want to say one thing that made me go huh, which was the whole Meg digging Castiel thing. If a man threw me across a fire and used my body to walk on over it I would not be all into that:)[/quote]
Well, she’s a demon. It probably turned her on.
[quote]I don’t see Sam’s not looking for Dean as inargueably OCC. In fact, isn’t it ironic that so many fans complain about how little insight they’ve been given into Sam’s thoughts and feelings… and at the same time they complain he’s acting OCC? If you don’t know what Sam’s thinking and feeling how can you possibly determine whether his behavior is in character or out of character? {WEG}[/quote]
racestaffer, I’ve never really had trouble understanding Sam, until this year. We didn’t get a lot of insight in season 1-7 but it was always enough to get a decent idea of what was going on with him. I agree with your earlier posts that there can be lots of different sides to a character. But this action of not looking for Dean flies in the face of everything we know about the character. So if they are going to do something that different from what we know of him than they need to explain it. Maybe in real life you may never know why someone does a 180 but in fiction it feels like poor characterization.
E, agree with everything in 82 and 86. I will miss Edlund SOOOOOO much. I’m probably going to have to start watching revolution again just to get my fix.
I think Sam not looking for Dean ending up working in the end, it ties into his feelings of inadequacy and failure with Dean that gets touched upon in the finale. In general it wasn’t the right thing for the character to do, but at the same time (especially in hindsight) it felt right.
For all he knew Dean was dead, he already had deal with that once, and knew that anything he tried would be futile, he would fail. Having lost everyone close to him, he had a moment of weakness and just gave up.
[quote]just saying… Taxi Driver just about gave me an aneurysm it was so sloppy and uncreative. The show had created the awesome MOL library. Why couldn’t the answers to getting in and out of purgatory come from there along with all of the other information that they found on curing demons there instead of suddenly and with no warning or continuity have reapers the living could see who can be hired out to ferry people into Purgatory whenever they want. It made no sense and it made Sam’s not looking for Dean doubly egregious seeing as how easy it turned out for Sam to get in and out of purgatory. What will that writing team (who shall remain nameless even though we all know who they are!) do with the big secret this year and ‘the cure’? I shudder to think but hope for the best.[/quote]
I think the episode would have fared better if it was a two parter, that way it would have least not looked as easy, condensing all that story into 45 minutes is what hurt the episode the most.
As for the reaper thing, I really don’t have a problem with the idea that they can become visible to humans. Given that Alastair in his meatsuit was able to physically handle Tessa and the other reaper says to me that they are corporeal, it’s just perception
Thing with Sam though is he didn’t know Dean was in Purgatory, to him Dean was dead, and he knows from experience that dead should stay dead.
answer to #96 Mick.
*For all he knew Dean was dead, he already had deal with that once, and knew that anything he tried would be futile, he would fail. Having lost everyone close to him, he had a moment of weakness and just gave up.[/quote]*
X
When someone dies they don’t usually disappear body and soul, so Sam being the expert hunter that he is had to suspect that something was not right; it was obvious that Roman’s soul when he died was going straight back to Purgatory, so there was plenty of clues for Sam to go on.
In fact he asks:-
*SAM
Where are they, Crowley?!
CROWLEY
Can’t help you, Sam. *
So Sam knows they have been sent off somewhere!
X
Even Castiel knew how it worked as he quickly answered Dean when he asked where they were:-
*DEAN
Where are we?
CASTIEL
You don’t know?
DEAN
Last I remember, we ganked Dick.
CASTIEL
And where would he go in death?
DEAN
Wait. Are you telling me…? *
X
It was the writers that mucked it up; there is no reason that can explain why Sam would not at least have tried to look for his brother. and there can never be, because it was just a whim of Carver’s who decided that not to have Sam look would be cool and put a new spin on the story but he made a big error.
racestaffer, I have to agree with Kelly. I can only judge OOCness based on what has gone before with the character; what he’s said and what he’s done. Here’s a few examples off the top of my head; in season 2: “People don’t disappear Dean, other’s just stop looking,” or in season 6: “You know me, you know why, I can’t leave my brother alone out there.” Or his actions. Season 6; When Sam drags is fractured self from his sick bed to be at Dean’s side when he confronts God/Cas. In Season 8, when Sam follows Dean despite threats of a bullet to the leg and ultimately kills the hell hound and saves Dean’s life. Every word and every action in the entire episode of Mystery Spot…. this is the Sam I know, the Sam they’ve shown… the one who will go to the ends of the earth the save his brother. Now, perhaps the ‘Sam didn’t look for Dean’ issue did help to create that wonderful, wonderful run up to the season finale as Mick suggests in post #97, and I can understand that reasoning for keeping Sam’s motivations quiet, and I did love the whole second half of the season. But the season is over now, and we still don’t know WHY he didn’t look and quite frankly it makes no sense. Filling in that gap now certainly wouldn’t cause any problems plot wise, and leaving it as an unknown is causing me and many other fans serious problems with Sam as a character.
And another thing that makes his decision OOC is that other characters in the show thought so too; Dean, Bobby even Meg, a demon could see how off and weird Sam’s decision was. It’s OOC, it’s illogical, it makes no sense, and I am begging that season 9 fills in some of those holes.
Hi again racestaffer… and once again I am going to have to disagree with your post #95. I am having a lot of trouble following your logic here.. What has the episode Faith got to do with what we saw at the end of season 8? Or are you trying to find fault with Sam’s motivations and actions going all the way back to season 1? Most of what you’ve said here is purely speculation on your part and is not supported by events within the episode. Dean comes to the motel room because Sam isn’t “man enough” to sit with his dying brother? Huh? What are you talking about? That isn’t indicated AT ALL, and IMO the writers were absolutely not intending that to be anyone’s interpretation. It was pretty clear, to me at least, that Dean showed up at the motel unexpectedly because he hates hospitals and didn’t bother to inform Sam that he was planning on leaving because he knew Sam would stop him. The previous scene was of Sam visiting Dean in the hospital so the editing indicated that Sam was just there with Dean, not leaving him languishing along because he’s not “man enough.”
And the issue of weather or not Sam might have gone ahead and let the teacher die is a non-issue IMO. He didn’t now, and any speculation as to what he MIGHT have done even if he had known, is just that, purely speculation and I do not agree at all with your assessment and it was not addressed in the episode at all. And Sam’s feelings on letting innocent humans die is made clear two episodes later in his complete unwillingness to kill Max, even though Dean is ready to do so.
And yes, Sam has gotten tunnel vision and obsessive from time to time, but so has Dean (Dick Roman) and both brothers have brutally killed when necessary. It doesn’t define their characters in totality. And I am not sure I see the connection between the things you’ve mentioned and the current discussion. Sam wasn’t acting OOC in season 8 because he left Dean in a motel room to kill the witches who were hexing him in season 3? HUH?
Interesting post race staffer (95). I always felt that it was sad that in the pilot when Dean drops Sam off, Sam doesn’t say something along the lines of “Even though I don’t want to hunt, we can still see each other and stay in touch.” In all the times Sam talks about quitting hunting, he never says that they’ll still stay in touch. Same thing in “Dark Side of the Moon”. Not even one good memory of him and Dean together. Sam always seems to keep some emotional distance between himself and Dean. I see that as emotional self preservation. Dean is and always will be a hunter and hunters like Dean don’t quit hunting they die hunting. Hence, in S8, ep1, Sam says hunting is what killed his whole family so he quit. Hunting is suicide to Sam and Sam chose not to commit suicide this time because there was no one left to save that he cared about. No one to get revenge against, since Dick was gone. Sam loves Dean, but Dean also epitomizes everything that causes pain in Sam’s life. Maybe that is why Sam’s relationships with other characters in the show is made to seem more standoffish as well. IMO
So much to read this morning!
Taxi Driver – Ugh – No further comment.
Edlund – I miss you already!!
Kelly – I agree. I feel like I knew Sam really well, up until 8.01.
Mick – yes, it fits with the end of the season, but not the words and actions of Sam from 1.01 up until then. And Dean did not go splat. He simply vanished. Without some evidence – blood, brain matter, goo, something other than Leviathan-black, the Sam I know would never have just said “oh, ok, I guess Dean’s dead and I should walk away in my grief.”
Prix68 – Not saying “we’ll keep in touch” didn’t shock me at all. It’s not something I say to my family often – and they live in a different country to me most of the time. I think for a lot of us, it’s a given, it’s understood, and for “no-chick-flick-moment-Dean”, I’m sure Sam felt it not worth saying.
Dark Side of the Moon was totally angel-manipulated. Those were definitely good memories for Sam, but the best? I doubt that. I can’t imagine anyone considering the night of a massive fight with the only family you have being a “best memory”, even if it was a step towards realizing a dream. Nope. Those were manipulated to break Dean. Period.
No one left Sam cared about to save? um, Kevin? He may not have been family, but Sam did like him, and did feel some responsibility to him.
ETA: In previous seasons, Sam was not the stand-offish one. He was the one with friends at Stanford that he hated to lose contact with. Sam was the one who made the connection with the victims.
May I just ask a few quick questions to those who have issues with Sam not looking for Dean after 7.23?
I’ve read so many comments over the past few months in relation to how out of character etc it was for Sam to not look for Dean. After due consideration, for me, it wasn’t, not in this context. However, for all the ‘Sam should have looked for Dean’ comments that I’ve read I haven’t read a single comment in relation to the logistics of the search that Sam should have undertaken (though perhaps I’m reading in the wrong places). So, hypothetical question, it’s just after 7.23:
(a) Where should Sam start the search for Dean? Heaven, because as Michael’s vessel Dean could be destined to go there, regardless of whether the angels want him there or not. Plus, Castiel was with him so there could be a possibility he took Dean with him to wherever he went ie heaven (cos he’s an angel)? Hell, because Crowley was involved. Purgatory because Dick Roman was involved. The ocean, because that’s where the Leviathans came from. On earth, because Dean is human after all and that’s where he disappeared from or some other place.
(b) How far should Sam go in terms of looking? Does he have a limit in terms of what he can and cannot do in order to get Dean back or get information that will lead to him getting Dean back? I mean, is he allowed to make deals with demons or angels or other supernatural beasties? Can he torture, kill, start drinking demon blood again, release Lucifer etc?
(c) What’s the timescale? I mean, for how long should Sam look before he is allowed to stop (and not be crucified by both Dean and fandom)? How long should he search for before he is allowed to try and live a life, to do what Dean and Bobby wanted him to do and to stop doing what all but destroyed him (and the world) in the past. I’m just looking for an approximate timescale here.
(d) If Sam found out for definite that Dean was dead (and let’s face it, who would you trust on SPN when they say that?) and he [i]did[/i] say that he thought that Dean was dead (that eating tacos comment was not said by Sam, it was said by JP in an interview) then should he have tried to bring him back?
In other words, you’re back in 7.23, please coordinate Sam’s search mission.
#103 – Tim-
That’s the stuff of fanfiction, and I could point you to a couple of really good ones. I’m not the writer here, but it could be (and has been) done believably. 🙂
@104 I’ve read buttloads of them as well, st50 and the vast majority of them involve Sam making some sort of a deal with some sort of a supernatural. However, we’ve seen what happens when Sam and Dean do that. Fanfiction rarely (if ever) deals with the consequences, and this show is all about the consequences.
Other stories are quite unrealistic in terms of character. They completely fail to take into account the cumulative effect of what Sam has gone through in the past (ie the Cage, hallucinations etc) and the impact it would have on him as well as established character traits (ie Sam’s obsessiveness in [i]Mystery Spot[/i] and what he became as a result of Dean’s ‘death’ then and also Sam in season 4). The show couldn’t have Sam going in the same direction again because it would show that he hadn’t learnt a single lesson from the past.
Geez, Tim. 🙂
You wanna talk about ignoring the cumulative effect of the halLUCInations, etc? Hello, Season 8!
Carver has COMPLETELY ignored that.
And yes, Show is all about consequences. But that has never stopped them from doing completely idiotic things in the past. They just have to deal with them later.
[quote]
When someone dies they don’t usually disappear body and soul, so Sam being the expert hunter that he is had to suspect that something was not right; it was obvious that Roman’s soul when he died was going straight back to Purgatory, so there was plenty of clues for Sam to go on.
In fact he asks.[/quote]
Of course it can, Alastair’s first body was destroyed by vanishing into white light. So yeah in certain situations a body can disappear upon death.
I think he learn from his families past mistakes, there are repercussions in trying to bring someone back from the dead, and he accepted Dean’s death.
Well incinerating someone would kill the body and
Racestaffer, I will have to agree with E. I detected absolutely no aloofness in Sam’s reaction to Dean in LR. LACK OF WARM HUG! Sam was gripping him so hard it looked like he might strangle him and the vein were popping in his arms. That’s probably my favorite brother hug! The lack of deep in-depth talks on how happy he is to have Dean back, I would think has more to do with it being about guys –written a guy. Now the sneaking out was probably due to the DB but Dean had told same he didn’t remember anything so how would he know he’d have PSTD. I think if Sam hadn’t been on the DB he might have been able to see what Dean was going through better but I don’t see a roboSam anywhere in that episode. I’m sorry I just can’t agree with that at ALL.
I like the moral ambiguity in the different situations as well. And while I don’t think Sam would have let that guy die for Dean(although I’m not sure Sam was sure at that moment), I’ll admit that I think he was relieved that he didn’t know at the time and therefore was able to save Dean, even though he felt guilty for it. I don’t think there is much he wouldn’t do for his brother which why this not looking for Dean made no sense to me. And I got the impression he was calling around trying to find ANYTHING to save Dean and some of which might not approve of, so he didn’t of earshot. Dean went to the freakin’ Rufus’ cabin in BAI, we don’t even know if that was in the same state!
I’ll admit that manning up line just irritates me, so I’ll leave that one to E.
In MM he left Dean alone because he couldn’t find the hex bag and went to force them to tell him. I’ll admit the timing is a little hinky, because how could he expect Dean to survive until he got to them and back BUT that should a lack of logic not concern. If anything he looked panicked.
I actually have no issue with believing Sam abandon Kevin. He though it is not something he would normally do. If he did have a breakdown or just decide to get out with no looking back –well there is ALWAYS going to be someone else to save. At that point, the Winchester’s weren’t the ones who dragged Kevin on the board (later they were but not then). He was needed by Crowley so not in imminent danger as far as Sam knew. While under normal circumstances I can’t ever see him leaving Kevin, I can fit leaving him at that time into my view of Sam. BUT NOT LEAVING DEAN. The only interpretation of Sam IMO that leads to him not looking for Dean is some sort of total mental collapse. THAT I can buy. But just giving up without bothering to look when he was in his right mind-NEVER. I will NEVER believe that. That is not Sam S1-7.
Tim, that kind leads into your question. I wouldn’t have cared if they’d had him try to find Dean and failed. But to not look at all makes no sense unless he had a breakdown. And if he had a breakdown than why wasn’t that ever shown.
Because they could have had him say, he tried to summons Crowley and force him to tell. Or used a location spell or dark magic. Or tried to find Kevin to see if the tablet had anything to say about it. Or whatever. To actually have tried, desperately tried to find out if Dean was even alive or dead would have been enough for me. But they didn’t have him do anything but run. That’s not Sam IMO, unless he had a breakdown. But if so why haven’t they ever bothered to tell us that. Or anything that would make his actions believable within the context of this character. [b]The worst thing by far was not not having him look it was not bothering to have him explain why afterwards[/b].
[quote]Interesting post race staffer (95). I always felt that it was sad that in the pilot when Dean drops Sam off, Sam doesn’t say something along the lines of “Even though I don’t want to hunt, we can still see each other and stay in touch.” In all the times Sam talks about quitting hunting, he never says that they’ll still stay in touch. [/quote]
This is the second time I have seen a reference to Sam not wanting to stay in touch at the end of the pilot. This is the script of that conversation:
SAM
Call me if you find him?
DEAN nods.
SAM
And maybe I can meet up with you later, huh?
DEAN
Yeah, all right.
SAM pats the car door twice and turns away. DEAN leans toward the passenger door, one arm going over the back of the seat.
DEAN
Sam?
SAM turns back.
DEAN
You know, we made a hell of a team back there.
SAM
Yeah.
DEAN drives off. SAM watches him go and sighs.
Sam has what is likely a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. It is just an interview but it is right now, today, why wouldn’t he take the time to go do it?
It is only after that that things really change for him. And he CLEARLY feels bad that he is stuck in this bind. Their father is being cryptic and clearly is not in so much trouble that he can’t send them on chases all over the country. He doesn’t even know that Dean has collected Sam. Sam knows this. It would be an immature decision to just fall in with what Dean wanted – and they BOTH know it.
st50 (102) In S6 when Dean says he’s out of hunting and him and Sam are parting, Dean says to keep in touch. So, apparently the Winchesters said this, as I do with my family or even “call me”. Maybe Sam didn’t think Kevin was his responsibility because he was a prophet and therefore the angels responsibility. My point is over the years the show has made a point of saying Sam doesn’t have close relationships because everyone always dies. Then he learned that people he thought were his friends in school and his early years were demons. Dean was and is the only person he openly loves and trusts and he sort of counts on Dean to stay alive some how with his help. When Dean is gone he has two choices, fight or flight. Sam has a real conundrum, help Dean stay alive by hunting with him (and he’ll still probably get killed) or leave Dean and hunting and not be around if Dean crashes and burns and therefore not fail Dean by not saving him from dying. Dean, on the other hand, assumes he might die hunting but has this strange optimism that Sam will somehow survive.
[quote]
Tim, that kind leads into your question. I wouldn’t have cared if they’d had him try to find Dean and failed. But to not look at all makes no sense unless he had a breakdown. And if he had a breakdown than why wasn’t that ever shown.
Because they could have had him say, he tried to summons Crowley and force him to tell. Or used a location spell or dark magic. Or tried to find Kevin to see if the tablet had anything to say about it. Or whatever. To actually have tried, desperately tried to find out if Dean was even alive or dead would have been enough for me. But they didn’t have him do anything but run. That’s not Sam IMO, unless he had a breakdown. But if so why haven’t they ever bothered to tell us that. Or anything that would make his actions believable within the context of this character. [b]The worst thing by far was not not having him look it was not bothering to have him explain why afterwards[/b].[/quote]
I agree with you Kelly, if they had shown / told us of any of these things it would have been enough for me. But I get Tim’s point there are people and that includes Dean for whom nothing would have been enough.
Sam did all those things on other occasions when Dean needed rescuing and he went darkside and he did awful things in the name of trying to rescue Dean, or get revenge for his death and not only didn’t it work but the fallout for Sam has been horrendous every time. He became addicted to power (and demon blood, he went to hell etc) .
And the result of the fallout is that the brother, without whom he would NEVER have started on the road to these outcomes, has never forgiven him.
Sam’s situation in 7.23:
Dean seems to be dead and is unlikely to be in hell.
Dean was the most disappointed in Sam for the many and various outcomes of his failed attempts to save him.
Sam’s (potential) questions:
Can I rescue Dean from hell anyway assuming he is there?
Can I rescue him from Purgatory? Purgatory is for monsters, how could he have gone there?
Who do I have left to help me?
Is Dean better off dead?
Would I have been better off dead after I was stabbed at Cold Oak?
Who can I make a deal with?
How has that worked out in the past?
Is there any more research I can do?
What did I tell Dean to do when I was going to hell?
Did he do that?
Did he settle down (with a family) and try to live a normal life?
Wouldn’t he want the same thing for me?
(of all these questions it is the answer to the last one that Sam was most wrong about, sadly for both him and Dean)
@106 Not necessarily. Sam was pretty messed up in his year out (even Amelia’s dad noticed that), it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that the hallucinations etc played a part in that. In relation to the consequences, the only way to stop the consequences is to stop doing the idiotic things, right? I mean, who’d be happy if Dean came back to realise Sam had started another Apocalypse or was drinking demon blood again?
@108 This is the thing Kelly, where did doing that lead Sam in the past? If he did as everyone expected him to do, use dark magic, summon demons etc in order to find Dean then, given that Crowley orchestrated the whole situation, it’s safe to say that there was huge chance that Sam would end up being played and inadvertently doing exactly what the demons (or angels) wanted, and that’s never anything good. This is how it went in the past, Sam acted exactly as he was expected and it brought on the Apocalypse.
Think of it this way, if Sam tried some sort of spell and it required the blood of an innocent, should Sam have done it? If Crowley promised to talk if Sam made a deal, should he have gotten him to talk then?
Sam has always been logical. He’s at his most effective when he uses his head, not his heart, when he thinks things through, not when he rushes in. For me, logically, what Sam did made sense. The only way to stop the endless cycle of destruction that led to everyone they knew being killed (and worse) was to step out of the game.
eilf–I think it sells Sam short to indicate that there’s literally nothing he could have done to save/find out what happened to Dean without him going to the extreme. Yes, Sam has had bad experiences with that in the past, but he also knows that it is possible to save your brother without losing yourself or your soul. He has two prime examples—Dean saving his soul in S6 and Dean saving him from dying by finding Castiel in 7.18. Dean had no reason to think he could do anything in either one of those situations, but he tried and he succeeded. I think it also sells Sam short to think that there was no research he could have done to find out what happened to Dean, since I’m sorry, but I don’t think Sam had nearly enough proof for a Winchester to believe his brother was conclusively dead (we’ve seen that these boys take no for an answer easily). I think your questions would have made more sense if Sam had researched, found out Dean was in purgatory, reasonably concluded (since Taxi Driver hadn’t been inflicted on us yet) that it would be impossible to get Dean out, and sadly moved on. Honestly, the idea that at the end of S7 Sam stopped to consider whether Dean would be disappointed with him as a possible deterrent from even trying to find out what happened to him just makes me sad for Sam as a character. The mental breakdown idea is vastly preferable to that, in my opinion.
eilf (109) The “maybe we can meet up later” was more like when you are breaking up with someone and say “We can still be friends”. It’s done to soften the blow, even though you both know you won’t be friends and I don’t think they were planning on meeting up later. Sam still had law school, Jess and his friends and Dean would have been an unnecessary complication in that world. IMO
A little late Tim, but I would want to answer your questions, I could only give you my opinion, and I don’t know what the rest of the people think about it.
A) I’m not the first one to suggest it, but in 7×23 episode Crowley said that the bone has a bit of a kick that the god weapons often do, he could begin to research it in Campbell’s library.
B and C) I don’t have a problem what he intend or how long if he had done anything at all, I already comment it with Dean and for me the same it is apply to Sam.
D) For me no
[quote]eilf–I think it sells Sam short to indicate that there’s literally nothing he could have done to save/find out what happened to Dean without him going to the extreme. Yes, Sam has had bad experiences with that in the past, but he also knows that it is possible to save your brother without losing yourself or your soul. He has two prime examples—Dean saving his soul in S6 and Dean saving him from dying by finding Castiel in 7.18. Dean had no reason to think he could do anything in either one of those situations, but he tried and he succeeded. I think it also sells Sam short to think that there was no research he could have done to find out what happened to Dean, since I’m sorry, but I don’t think Sam had nearly enough proof for a Winchester to believe his brother was conclusively dead (we’ve seen that these boys take no for an answer easily). I think your questions would have made more sense if Sam had researched, found out Dean was in purgatory, reasonably concluded (since Taxi Driver hadn’t been inflicted on us yet) that it would be impossible to get Dean out, and sadly moved on. Honestly, the idea that at the end of S7 Sam stopped to consider whether Dean would be disappointed with him as a possible deterrent from even trying to find out what happened to him just makes me sad for Sam as a character. The mental breakdown idea is vastly preferable to that, in my opinion.[/quote]
Oh, I thought it went without saying that he was having a mental breakdown. My point is that he went through all this WHILE in a mental breakdown.
My questions are as much for the people determined to see the worst in Sam for any given situation no matter what (no I am not speaking of anyone in particular).
What sells Sam short is ANY theory that he didn’t search because he doesn’t care enough.
Just one more thing. Didn’t Bobby just tell the boys that when it was your time to go, just go. Didn’t we hear time and again that the dead should stay dead from Dean’s own lips? So why should Sam have been trying to bring back a Dean he thought was dead? Alright, Dean didn’t take that news well, but that doesn’t make Dean right, just hurt.
[quote]eilf (109) The “maybe we can meet up later” was more like when you are breaking up with someone and say “We can still be friends”. It’s done to soften the blow, even though you both know you won’t be friends and I don’t think they were planning on meeting up later. Sam still had law school, Jess and his friends and Dean would have been an unnecessary complication in that world. IMO[/quote]
As I said somewhere else there is literally nothing Sam can do that can’t be twisted around to make him look as bad as possible…
#103. Tim, great questions. Another would be: what does he consider “looking”? If Dean considers that going thru a few books, but not contacting Bobby or Castiel while Sam was in hell “looking” but Sam does not consider it as such, then maybe he did “look” for a bit, who knows. Sam has certainly never answered the question directly on screen, it’s always been “assumed” that no response means guilty of not looking at all. Although I don’t expect it will be addressed, as things are often left to die a lonely cinematic death never to be heard from again, i do have hope based upon the number of times it was brought up, and not just by Dean.
I’ll do my best to answer your questions as well, Tim, for the sake of conversation.
A) I have to agree with paloma in saying that I think the Campbell library and/or Bobby’s back-ups would have been an ideal place to start. I also think that starting with a demon would make sense, because 1) Sam knew how to summon them, and 2) if Crowley had information about what happened to Dean there was a possibility that other demons might know as well. As it turned out in Taxi Driver, all it takes is finding one random demon and they can give you the key to everything, right? 😆
B) I like to think Sam is a smart man, so I’d like to think that he can learn from his past mistakes (show’s issues with Xeroxing itself aside). So again, I think it sells Sam short to think that there’s no possible way to think that if he started looking for Dean, he would be unable to determine where the line would be in what actions he could take to get Dean back. Killing innocents, breaking the boundaries between purgatory and earth, becoming a demon–I think Sam would be able to stop himself before he went too far this time, because he should be better able to recognize where the line between saving your brother and destroying the world is at this point. Let’s give him some credit.
C) More than none would be my answer. I gave what I thought was my most reasonable scenario in my post to eilf up above. Also, I don’t think anyone is going to be able to give you an actual time frame without it sounding arbitrary, so I’m going to stick with more than one.
D) No, I don’t believe Sam should have tried to bring Dean back if he’d had any conclusive reason to think that Dean was dead. To me, he didn’t, because someone saying a weapon has a lot of kick to it isn’t conclusive.
To me, it’s impossible to credit Sam for making logical conclusions about avoiding a possibly self-destructive road while also saying that he was overwhelmed by grief (and possible hallucinations, though we have no canon proof of that) that he just broke down and ran. To me, it has to be one or the other. Show went with the latter, though once again they had a show vs. tell issue where they didn’t present their case on-screen as strongly as they could have, in my opinion.
eilf–I don’t think that Sam doesn’t care about Dean. I think show didn’t think through what they had decided to do with Sam and didn’t do a good enough job explaining what Sam went through, because all of this discussion and debate? Could have been easily avoided if the storyline had been written better.
119–Thisoldbag, I think that looking would definitely fall under reading some books and seeing if there was a solution. I don’t think Sam would have been nearly as maligned if he’d tried and failed, rather than not trying at all. Others might think differently, but that’s what I think. I also think it would make less sense at this point to think that Sam had looked or done something, but refused to tell Dean about it. Why would he prefer to allow Dean to think that he didn’t try at all? You could answer that what he’d done would make Dean mad, but he was going to be mad either way. Why let him be mad with the explanation tailor-made to hit him right where his insecurities are? You’re right that Sam was questioned by more than just Dean about this, too–even if Dean would be mad by what Sam might have done, why would he have not defended himself to Bobby, who would be more understanding, or Meg, whose opinion of him really wouldn’t change because of what actions he did or didn’t take? I think the truth is in Sam’s lack of answer. It’s in the eye of the viewer whether that’s good enough or not. Perspectives vary, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
eilf (118) I promise you I in no way think this made Sam look bad. Sometimes even though you love someone, you sort of outgrow them or move in a different direction away from them. I also don’t believe Sam was wrong not to look for Dean. Dean disappeared with Castiel so if I had been Sam I would have assumed that they were dead or Cas would have zapped them back. I admit I was surprised but the more I think about it the more sense it makes to me. The surprise was a Winchester not repeating the same mistakes. The dead should stay dead, when it’s your time to go, just go. That was the current opinion on the show.
@120
A) You mean the Campbell library and/or Bobby’s back up library that they had already gone through in earlier seasons? In relation to the demon, I don’t believe that listening to a demon, trusting that they were telling him the truth and doing what that demon told him was the right way to go. It didn’t exactly work out fantastic the last time!
B) So Sam can only go so far and no further. I’m wondering would the issue then be that Sam didn’t do [i]enough[/i] to find Dean. And if Sam learned from his past mistakes, then surely he could argue to himself that this time he could do the same thing but do it right, even to the extent of setting Lucifer free if it got him what he wanted. I mean, he did defeat him once before (and with relative ease), who’s to say that he couldn’t do it again? Would re-releasing Lucifer be worth it if it would get Dean back? Jeez, Sam could resurrect Bobby and get him to help him! I mean, when what you can do is limitless then what limit do you set?
C) Will we say ten minutes so? That’s more than none! And we can add to that. Actually, I’m sure Sam could find a way to live forever so technically he could search for Dean forever (and still be no closer to finding him).
D) So Crowley telling Sam that he was now truly on his own wasn’t conclusive? Sam believed that Dean was dead. He said this to him. And death is never conclusive on this show. It’s more of an inconvenience than anything else. And even if there was ‘conclusive’ proof of Dean’s death, should he have left him dead? Surely he’d try to save him if he thought he was in hell, or in Purgatory or even in heaven (given that it doesn’t seem to be the best place to be).
May I ask, why do you find it difficult to believe that someone who is overwhelmed by grief is incapable of coming to a logical conclusion? Someone who is depressed and/or grief stricken can, and do, make decisions and logical ones all the time. A person’s thought process doesn’t shut down because of grief etc. We see that all the time with those who are bereaved.
[quote]eilf (109) The “maybe we can meet up later” was more like when you are breaking up with someone and say “We can still be friends”. It’s done to soften the blow, even though you both know you won’t be friends and I don’t think they were planning on meeting up later. Sam still had law school, Jess and his friends and Dean would have been an unnecessary complication in that world. IMO[/quote]
Or it was an invitation to stay in contact, and not let things be as they were before. The 4 year (or 2 year) ice was broken between them now so maybe Sam didn’t want it to freeze over again, hence ‘maybe we can meet up later’. For me, that was a definite indication that Sam wanted Dean in his life. And those lives definitely could co-exist.
Tim the Enchanter (125) I don’t think the baleful looks and the tone of their voices said let’s stay in touch. I think they would have been more upbeat. It definitely said goodbye to me. My opinion. Since Sam was getting ready to enter law school, I would guess close to 4 years apart.
[quote]Tim the Enchanter (125) I don’t think the baleful looks and the tone of their voices said let’s stay in touch. I think they would have been more upbeat. It definitely said goodbye to me. My opinion. [/quote] I don’t know, Prix68, for me it felt like it was said more in nervous hope (kinda like the end of a first date!) Sam, from Dean’s point of view, wasn’t going to be sitting back in the Impala driving around the country. He was going to half way across the country, up to his neck in work and away from Dean. Dean, from Sam’s point of view, was going back into the fray, back hunting monsters, back to danger. Hell, there was chance they might never see each other again.
[quote] Since Sam was getting ready to enter law school, I would guess close to 4 years apart.[/quote] I’d have always said four years as well but I think in the next episode Dean said two years so I was just covering myself.
Tim and Prix68 – I have given some thought on the 2/4 years thing, and here is what I came up with:
In high school, I took AP courses for college credit. By the time I graduated from high school, I had enough credits for a year of college, so started as a sophomore. It sounds like Sam was a lot smarter than me, so he would have done the same thing. And, the pilot was on Halloween – beginning of the school year, and he was interviewing with law schools – I did that beginning of my senior year of college too, to go to law school the next year. So – the brothers would have been separated from September sophomore year through October senior year – just a shade over 2 years. Makes perfect sense.
@Tim
A) Yes, the Campbell library or Bobby’s back-up libraries, that unless I’m mistaken Sam and Dean had never searched through to find out what the aftereffects of killing the head of the Leviathans could possibly be. As for the demon listening, it’s hard to say whether that would be considered the right way to go. Torturing demons for information surely has been shown to be the correct path in show’s canon before. If not, though, perhaps consulting the same list of contacts Dean used that led to the healing of Sam in 7.18?
B) Going so far and no further—isn’t that usually the case of heroic quests? It’s not an uncommon narrative trope, especially on show, for Sam or Dean to have to look at the moral relativism of their actions before deciding what the right course is. There’s a lot of ground to cover between wanting to help your brother and setting Satan free, so to leap from nothing to all actions causing the apocalypse is hyperbolic, in my opinion. There’s literally no reason to logically conclude that there’s no purpose in trying to what happened to Dean because by doing so you’re automatically going to break the world. Being aware of possible consequences shouldn’t, in my opinion, paralyze a character into doing nothing—if it had, Sam never would have saved the world in S5, because the knowledge that he had a slim chance of actually controlling Lucifer would have stopped him.
C) Ten minutes would have been preferable to none, yes, but I think we’re being a bit facetious. I agree that Sam could have searched forever and not found a way to Dean, but he could have also searched and found a way to Dean. Sam (and we) will never know, will we?
D) No, not to me. Crowley is the king of demons, and as you pointed out in A), demons are not to be trusted. So by your logic why would Crowley suddenly be a reliable source of information on which to base conclusions? I’ve already answered that yes, I do think Sam should have left Dean dead if he’d had proof that he was dead. The elusive words of the king of hell who has lied to you before do not strike me as definitive. I’d take the word of a trapped and tortured demon over that, but at the very least isn’t the phrase “trust, but verify�
True, and I’ll grant you, Tim, that people are able to make rational choices while bereaved in real life. There are also people who are in depressed and grief-stricken mindsets who do all they can to put one foot in front of the other. I do think that someone completely devastated and overwhelmed by grief, as Sam had to have been , is more likely to fit the latter description and less likely to be able to level-headedly work through all of the possible scenarios and possible pitfalls and rewards of varying choices. I still don’t think show can have it both ways—they can’t give Sam cover for being too bereaved to do anything to begin to find out what happened to Dean (which is indeed what I think show had Sam tell Dean) while also praising him for making a level-headed, logical choice where he rationally came to the conclusion that even trying to find out what happened to Dean as the path to world ruin. We can, of course, agree to disagree.
Tim, Why not? It is not like Sam read all the books and it is serve in earlier seasons.
And sorry but the issue here for me it is that he didn’t look for me at all. The rest of what would happened if Sam look for is pure speculation.
Your d I don’t understand it in relation with your question.
For me is difficult seem that Sam was depressive at all, if that was the intention they failed. In my experience when you are depressive it is difficult have a girlfriend, a job near imposible and if it is depends of you, you have much probabilities that your dog is going to died.
Grace232 (128) I’ll go with that! Lol
He was 22, for that he had to repeat two years in high school and then he was going to made college in two years… I recognise that I don’t know nothing about education in usa but I don’t think so.
I can say that the good thing about show not being too clear about what Sam did for a considerable number of months while Dean was purgatizing; I get to let my imagination do the work. If show (and this goes for other plot points) keeps me in limbo about it, it’s ok, I know what really happened. If show clarifies later, then I can just switch the story in my head. 🙂
Paloma- You don’t actually have to go to college at 18 or when you finish high school. You can wait and still get scholarships for several years ( like I did).
Paloma (132) normal in USA would be 4 years college and 3 years law school, after graduating from high school.
I’m sorry, 😳 thanks for the information
No reason to apologize Paloma. Actually, I’ve always thought the most unbelievable part was Sam actually going thru the Stanford interview process; they like to strip search your life to find any reason to not give you a free ride, and Sam’s life likely didn’t show much stability.
It is actually pretty easy getting thru the first 2 years, you can do that in high school or take classes at a community college without having to be in class.
LOL. Thisoldbag – love that! Actually, I found it was Harvard law that did that – no I did not get in there. Got a free ride for college though – amazing what being dirt poor and having a unique background will do for you with colleges. In fact, the one I went with accepted me and gave me the package before they ever met me. However, it was not Stanford. Good thing too – not sure I would have made the grade in a strip search (life or otherwise).
Hello peeps. This is a great discussion going on here about Sam and the ‘should he have looked shouldn’t he have looked’ debate. I tend to be in agreement with Kelly and eilf in general and feel his actions are out of character. The main problem for me is not even really that he should have looked and he didn’t or even that he decided not to look in the first place, it’s that his motivation for his decision HAS NOT BEEN DISCUSSED in any meaningful way onscreen AT ALL. The reason this is such a conundrum I think is because it is unexplained. If Sam choose to look but failed fine, show us how he looked, how he failed and how that affected him. If he choose not to look fine, (although not so much 😆 ) but show us how he came to that conclusion, (and I don’t mean “I thought Dean might be dead except when I was thinking he might be eating tacos in the next state”) none of the other characters in the show bought that one and neither did we. If he had a mental breakdown fine, show how that came about and how he coped with it over time. The main problem here is not the actual decision that Sam made, but in the lack of any meaningful detail that contains logic that helps adequately explain his decision in a way that makes sense given what we’ve known of the character over the past seven seasons.
And this is for Tim. It appears that after 7.23 that all Sam had to do was get any old random demon and torture him with holy water for five minutes to find out that a rogue reaper could ferry him right into purgatory tout-suit. Dean could have been home within 24 hours. Such is the destructive nature of Taxi Driver, my second least favorite episode after Man’s Best Friends….
[quote]eilf (118) I admit I was surprised but the more I think about it the more sense it makes to me. The surprise was a Winchester not repeating the same mistakes. The dead should stay dead, when it’s your time to go, just go. That was the current opinion on the show.[/quote]
The problem that I have with this reasoning and the entire Sam Didn’t Look for Dean situation is that the Winchester’s have never followed that motto ever. They never let the other one go… they always go above and beyond all reasonableness to make sure the other one stays alive…it’s part of being Sam and Dean. As Zachariah said “they are psychotically, illogically, erotically co-dependent on one another.” “What is dead should stay dead” has NEVER applied to the Winchesters, that’s the whole point of their very existence. Dean knew it, Bobby knew it even Zachariah knew it and now Sam has broken it. Perhaps JC was trying to “humanize” Sam by making him seem more logical, have him mourn and move on like most regular people do… but Sam must be a Winchester first, and the Winchesters never, ever let each other go.
E –
You really are speaking my mind here! Your posts over the last couple days have been exactly what I’ve been thinking.
Thanks.
ETA: Over the last month or two, I have come to the realization that Taxi Driver has topped my list of worst episodes of the series.
I don’t know if this is the right place for this comment, but I try to watch SPN as I think the writers, directors, producers, showrunners, creators and actors intend for the audience to see the show. I never for one second believe that their intention is for us to see Sam as a manipulative, passive aggressive, ungrateful whiny little brat who couldn’t care less about what happened to his brother. Just like I am sure that we are not supposed to see Dean as a self righteous unyielding, sanctimonious dick. I am sure they thought the viewers would have a higher opinion of the hero’s of the show. I think we are supposed to have a high enough opinion of Sam after 8 years to believe he was crippled with loss. Just like we are supposed to believe that Dean has forgiven Sam I don’t know why some of the viewers can’t get passed it. I know everyone wants to put their own interpretation on the brothers relationship and how they should feel about each other but wouldn’t it be more satisfying to watch the show for the intention of the people who put this show together? I for one think they mean for us to root for these guys and enjoy the product they, after all give us for free. Sorry I guess I am bitter about the bitterness.
#142
I’m sure that’s true, cheryl42, and I’m glad you’re happy with it all.
That’s one of the reasons for this separate thread. If you’re happy, you don’t need to worry about the bitterness.
Enjoy the show, and never mind those of us who have issues with some things.
Hey I have something new to be bitter about (yay 😛 ) Robbie Thompson. There is a discussion going on about how well he writes Dean and how awesome Charlie is (don’t ask me about Charlie, you don’t want to know) I liked her well enough in the first episode, however if if she uses the words ‘bitches’ or ‘bee tee dubs’ one more time …. well I suppose I can avoid the episodes if they start to really annoy me …. (and now you know, sorry). Well right enough he writes Dean very well. He has created Charlie very … well it’s Charlie (yay 😐 ) … he writes Sam as if he is forced to. Sam is almost non existent in LARP and the Real Girl. He has no reason to be there except be the straight man for Dean and Charlie and …. pornstars … and to be pinned against a suit of armour to be rescued (a-flippin-gain).
Pac-Man Fever is somewhat of an improvement but I wish I didn’t get the feeling that RT thinks that the show is about Dean and one of his 2 or 3 sidekicks…. and that it’s an either / or situation.
Ok rant over…
Cheryl42… the problem for me is not so much in the intention of the writers et al. I am sure you are correct TPTB are absolutely doing the best they can, and their intentions are good as I am sure they love the show as much as the actors and us fans do. But these people are professionals in the world of TV and their intentions must finally meet up with execution and it is this area that they sometimes fall short IMO. It’s pretty hard to see the good intentions of the writers and the characters when sometimes the execution shows them in such a poor light. This is a television show and at some point we must respond to what we see, not what the writers intended us to see, especially if the intention is nowhere to be seen onscreen. Despite the writers good intentions, I have to feel at ease with what I see and experience on my screen.
I am sorry that you are bitter about all the bitterness, it really is enough to get you down sometimes. I myself vacillate between “it’s only a TV show, don’t take is so seriously” and “seriously! they are ruining everything!”. However, this is the bitterness thread, a place for the express purpose of airing our dissatisfaction and discussion about how things might be improved and our hope for the continuing story. There is also a happiness thread to balance things out, and I post there too!
st50, THANKS! 8)
Opps, posted too quick. st50 I also meant to say, I agree with you about Taxi Driver. Mans Best Friend was just bad in plot, characterization and…uh sensitivity…I guess you could say. Taxi Driver had a great concept and terrific acting and one of the best brother hugs; but it’s wholesale destruction of established canon is unforgivable IMO. So even though MBF was of a poorer quality plot and execution wise, it wasn’t as destructive to the show as a whole as Taxi Driver. Maybe it’s because I am sensitive to Sam as a character that I am so bothered by Taxi Driver. In re-writing canon they ended up making Sam look like a first class fool for not looking for Dean. With a topic so sensitive it was like pouring gasoline on a fire. It was so much easier to think that Sam had no possible way to get Dean out of purgatory if ever ended up finding him. But Taxi Driver demolished that notion by making Purgatory (and Hell) a veritable walk in the park with the whole journey taking less than 24 hours. Get a reaper, stroll in, shift a rock, waltz back out. Urg……. 😮
Hi eilf (#144). He! If it makes you feel any better, I think Robbie Thompson is better at writing Sam than Andrew Dabb is at writing Dean. I was just re-watching Trail and Error, and episode I actually like pretty well, but was basically wondering why Dean sounded like such a snarky one-lining jerk trough the whole episode, and then I realized that compared to Everybody Hates Hitler, with Dean being so clever, nuanced, bad assed and charming, that Andrew Dabb had no clue about Dean. It was all surface jokes and snark. The contrast was glaring. Does that help?…. no?
[quote]Hi eilf (#144). He! If it makes you feel any better, I think Robbie Thompson is better at writing Sam than Andrew Dabb is at writing Dean. I was just re-watching Trail and Error, and episode I actually like pretty well, but was basically wondering why Dean sounded like such a snarky one-lining jerk trough the whole episode, and then I realized that compared to Everybody Hates Hitler, with Dean being so clever, nuanced, bad assed and charming, that Andrew Dabb had no clue about Dean. It was all surface jokes and snark. The contrast was glaring. Does that help?…. no?[/quote]
LOL no it doesn’t really … it’s a bit sad. I agree that Dean is badly written in a few episodes this season, Both the guys do what they can with what they are given and as Jensen said at a con once he has been trying not to play Dean as a jerk since season one. And he has succeeded very well, it is part of the reason why Dean is so complex and in depth. The other reason is that most of the writers say they like to write for Dean and they have, so that someone can write a journal of his thoughts all the way from episode 1 to 23 and not have a single person argue with her interpretation of them, and his reasoning for his actions during that time.
They do not write the same for Sam really at all. They really don’t, what Jared can do with that stuff when he gets it is obvious -case in point – Sacrifice.
The fact that you couldn’t possibly write a journal for Sam since we can’t even agree (apparently) that he loves his family and the fact that Sweetondean said she wouldn’t even attempt it really shows up my main, major and overriding issue with Season 8 (and a fair amount of Season 7 too) where the hell is ‘Sam’?
But, no, bad writing for other characters doesn’t make me any happier sadly. (As an aside if Dean never again discussed Sam’s potential medical conditions, and doctors visits required as he gets older (which he did twice this season) that would be GREAT (thanking you in advance writers). 😕
#142 cheryl42, for the record I completely agree with you, but as the person who suggested bringing back this thread I think it serves a vital purpose. I think people who are unhappy or have issues needed a place to vent or rant or just work things out. It has kept the frustration off the other threads, mostly, and that is a good thing. The name of the thread gives fair warning!!
Do I personally want to read that Sam is selfish or that Dean hasn’t forgiven Sam or doesn’t ever want his brother to have a normal happy life, hell no. But that is my choice. So off to happier places I will go! 🙂
Tim (and eilf), I can see your point but I think E said it best. We don’t know if he considered and discarded anything because it has never been discussed in any meaningful way. So we don’t really have a clue as to his thought process after Dean disappeared. THAT is what bothers me. The audience never got the chance to accept or reject the reasons he didn’t look, because they never told us the reasons.
In fact, E I loved both your post and totally agree with them. Especially the snarky comment about Taxi Drive -UGH that pisses me off. Seriously could they make Sam seem anymore ineffectual.
And most especially this[quote]They never let the other one go… they always go above and beyond all reasonableness to make sure the other one stays alive…it’s part of being Sam and Dean. As Zachariah said “they are psychotically, illogically, erotically co-dependent on one another.” “What is dead should stay dead” has NEVER applied to the Winchesters, that’s the whole point of their very existence. Dean knew it, Bobby knew it even Zachariah knew it and now Sam has broken it. Perhaps JC was trying to “humanize” Sam by making him seem more logical, have him mourn and move on like most regular people do… but Sam must be a Winchester first, and the Winchesters never, ever let each other go.[/quote]
To me almost every story since season 1 has in someway been either completely based on or at least related to that connection. And now Sam has been shown to chose otherwise and it breaks my heart and has the potential of destroying all the seasons for me. Because if I do accept that Sam could just casually not look than why should I buy that he would take on his Hell memories for Dean (any rational person would stay in his happy place)?. Why should I buy that Dean’s death was so devastating to Sam that he was an easy mark for Ruby? He did just fine this time. Or again in MS, I mean people lose family every day, you don’t see them turning into a OCD borderline sociopath. And really why DOES he keep hunting? I mean if it isn’t to be with Dean than he should just settle done with that bitchy vet. Though I would never watch that show, not even to see Jared.
And I really feel bad for Dean, if Sam is just kinda invested than Dean’s really getting screwed. I’m mean he sold his soul and spent 40 years in Hell for Sam. He made a deal with Death. For a guy who can’t be bothered to spend a few weeks to make sure he’s dead and not suffering somewhere. It just makes the relationship extremely unbalanced and it’s just not the show I signed up for.
#144 eilf, awww I love Charlie. And I really loved how he wrote Sam last year. But I will agree this year not as much. I did like the scene between him and Meg, but once again in told us nothing really about Sam. It would have been a great opportunity to reveal more about how he decided not to look or whatever. Talking to someone who wasn’t that invested. But instead we got the same info we always got which was really nothing. FRUSTRATING. I really really thought they were doing it because a reveal was coming up when it turned out to be nothing, I can’t even watch that episode now without getting depressed. Although to be fair, all the episodes of last season depress me, accept Everybody Hates Hitler for some reason I can tune out the rest of the season when I watch that.
@129 A) However, they did go through the libraries when researching Leviathans, at least they did one of them (I think it was Bobby’s). Contacting hunters (provided they could find one that didn’t want Sam dead), given that Bobby, Sam and Dean were considered the best and they were definitely the most learned in relation to the Leviathans, possibly a waste of time. Add to that, going through those books or contacting hunters, when you don’t even know what you’re looking for, is a time consuming task which might not even bear fruit.
Also, just wondering, why did you decide to focus on Leviathans as the key element of research? Why not angels, demons, tablets, weapons etc?
B) Except Sam has vast experience of that. Try, fail and set the world to burn is pretty much his life story. And knowing what you’re capable of, and learning from experience, wouldn’t it be an awful risk to try again? Sam has experienced how slippery that slope is. Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that he was right to choose to not step on it?
Add to that, from a human point of view surely the decision to choose to not help someone when you know where they are is infinitely more difficult than not knowing where they are in the first place. If you don’t know where a person is you can convince yourself that they’re in a better place (whether that be dead or off happy somewhere). If you do know where a person is but you either can’t help them or you decide to not help them, then that would be much harder to cope with.
Re the decision to jump in the Cage, Sam acted with his head, not with heart. And it turned out to be the right decision. I feel he did the same thing here. With Jessica and with Dean (in season 4) he acted with the heart; monumental disasters.
C) No, we certainly will not and that is the crux of the issue. If Sam searched for ten minutes then technically he [i]did[/i] look but I doubt it would appease everyone (I doubt it would appease anyone). Ditto if he looked for a month, or a year. Had Sam looked for a year and didn’t find him then the argument would most probably be that Sam should have looked for a year and a day. There was no winning for Sam in this situation. Hell, he should have just lied about it and told Dean he looked for him. (Except that certainly wouldn’t go down well either!)
D) So to whom should he go in order to verify what Crowley said? Demons, not to be trusted. Angels, not to be trusted. Monsters, not to be trusted (unless, of course, they’re Benny). Hunters, if they even knew why would they risk telling him? To get Dean Winchester, just another hunter (to them) back? Humans, know nothing about it. Nobody is a reliable source of information on SPN, everyone has an agenda; Sam knows that. So where do you go in order to get this verification, or are you back to torturing until you get the ‘right’ answer, again?
@129 justsaying, you really can’t compartmentalise stages of grief like that because there aren’t any definitive markers in terms of timescale and how a person who is depressed should act etc. Sam has, in all probability, been depressed or borderline depressed for much of his life. A dysfunctional childhood, alienated from his family when he chose to go to college, a girlfriend who died because of him, a mother, father and brother who died because of him, the Apocalypse starting because of him; Sam wouldn’t exactly be a poster boy for positive mental health. However, he goes on. He might not have had the wherewithal to be able to come up with a valid strategy to search for someone who had disappeared before his eyes and he, for whatever reason, whether he had evidence or whether he convinced himself of it for self preservation, believed to be dead. However, he was level headed enough, in spite of his grief, to fix up the car, apply the lessons learnt in the past to the current situation and create some semblance of a life. That’s similar to ‘real life’ when a person suffers bereavement they know what they have to do. Get up, dress, get breakfast etc etc. It’s automatic to them because they’ve done it for so long. Carrying on in situations like that is automatic for Sam. He did it after Jessica’s death, after John’s death, after Dean’s death and after Bobby’s death. What he did with the car and driving around was the SPN equivalent of getting up and getting dressed. He fixed the car, he drove around and he thought. He thought about what he should do and, whether he had convinced himself that Dean was dead or convinced himself that it was too dangerous to look for Dean, he decided not to look for him.
Add to that, never mind the four questions I posed, Sam’s mind at that stage must have been full of ten thousand questions, scenarios and possible eventualities and when there is that much going on it’s hard to pinpoint one definitive course of action. Let’s say Sam did decide to drive to the library (and maybe all the time thinking that maybe he should be spending the time torturing a demon for information etc) and he starts looking at books on Leviathans. Why focus on Leviathans? What if he was wasting precious time researching Leviathans? How does he decide between questioning an angel or a demon or a Leviathan? When there are so many options available to you how do you know which one is the right one? The stakes are awful big if you get it wrong. Overwhelmed would not even begin to cover how Sam must have felt in that situation. That’s another, very human, explanation for Sam’s actions. Might not make a ‘hero’ for some but it works for me.
@108. Sam didn’t wear a tee-shirt with the words ‘I had a breakdown’ or something like that on it but there were many indications that Sam [i]did[/i] have a breakdown, especially during the flashbacks. Mental breakdowns are not necessarily big, dramatic events full of crying and rocking in the corner. The vast majority of them are silent and slip by unnoticed (especially for Sam as he had no one left who knew him and who would notice the change). Symptoms differ hugely and often are very innocuous (difficulty sleeping, irritability, withdrawal etc) and easy to miss or pass off as something else. I mean, how many times has Sam been called a ‘whiny bitch’. Aside from Sam’s ‘My world imploded’ in 8.06 he did display many external symptoms. He was hugely anxious after hitting Riot with the car, ditto when he couldn’t find Amelia in the park. Amelia’s father, a stranger, made comment more than once about how messed up Sam was, Sam told Amelia he was not okay, that he lost someone. Sam couldn’t even talk about Dean to Amelia’s father, instead telling him that the car belonged to his father, not his brother. Bobby and Meg noted how unusual it was that Sam didn’t do what he was expected to do. Sam couldn’t cope with things that would have been second nature to him beforehand, all signs of a possible breakdown.
Add to that, Sam is a notorious internaliser. For as much as he is deemed the instigator of the ‘chick flick’ moments, he rarely talks about he feels, instead pushing others to talk. We saw in 8.21 and 8.23 just how good and for just how long he has been keeping things to himself. Hell, even his big brother who supposedly knows him so well and whose pocket he lived in for most of his life hadn’t a clue. However, looking back with the knowledge that we have now, the symptoms (in both instances) were there.
@130. Yes, it is pure speculation. It’s an attempt to understand Sam’s ‘inaction’ while Dean was in purgatory. However, parts of it are touched upon (though evidently not enough) in canon. Re D), allow me to clarify. Sam, for whatever reason, believed Dean to be dead. Would you have been happy if he tried to bring him back from the dead?
@139 If only Crowley and Castiel had known the same thing in season 6 it would have saved them a huge amount of trouble. (And how ineffectual did the King of Hell and an angel come across as a result of that episode??) Many things would have different if Sam, Dean, John, Castiel etc had the power of knowing what would come in the future. However, my questions are in relation to what Sam knew at the end of season 7, not three quarters of the way through season eight.
@140 This “they are psychotically, illogically, erotically co-dependent on one another.” “What is dead should stay dead”’ mentality is what almost ended the world in the first place, what Sam was trying to avoid doing again.
I think it’s so funny that for all that is being said about wanting something different on the show, many people just want the same old same old? Sam does something to try and help, screws up, they spend the rest of the season cleaning up that mess, Dean is pissed, Sam is condemned, many fans are furious and demand a change. In season 8, there [i]was[/i] that change and many fans are furious!
And E, Winchesters do let each other go. Dean let Sam go at the end of season 5, they let each other go when Sam went to Stanford, they were after letting each other go at the end of 1.01 and Sam let Dean go at the end of season 7. [i]Not[/i] letting each other go has been the problem. (And in season 9 when people are being killed by demons, and demons are out stirring up crap again, we will once again see how much being ‘psychotically, illogically, erotically co-dependent on one another’ costs them and costs others. What they were trying to do with Sam in this instance was not have Sam make the same mistakes they both constantly made in the past; mistakes that cost innocents their lives.
[quote]
What they were trying to do with Sam in this instance was not have Sam make the same mistakes they both constantly made in the past; mistakes that cost innocents their lives.[/quote]
Hi Tim, If you could show me the scene in season 8 where this idea was made clear I would appreciate it cause I must have missed it. When was it that Sam explained this rationale to Dean (or anyone else for that matter) so that at least we the fans could have some greater understanding of his point of view? It didn’t happen, not that I saw. I would have been perfectly fine with an explanation like this if it had actually been on my television screen, but it wasn’t. Dean might have still been pissed, but at least Sam’s head space would have been made clear and his rationale could be defensible in the eyes of his brother, the other characters on the show and the fans. All we currently have is Sam didn’t look and left Dean to rot because of a (bitchy, unpleasant) girl.
racestaffer, I believe that I have offered very sufficient evidentiary examples of Sam’s prior behavior that shows clearly that his rational in season 8 (what little we know of it) is markedly different than what we have seen from him in past seasons, making his actions regarding Dean at the start of the season OOC as far as I am concerned. And since this is an opinion thread and not a court of law, I don’t really feel the need to offer up any more information, as I am only confirming my opinion in the matter and probably won’t be changing it any time soon. If what I have put forth is not enough to sway your opinion, that is fine and your prerogative. I do not agree with your assessment and you do not agree with mine. That’s fine and a pretty common occurrence on this site.
As for the rest of your post, I am really sorry, but it’s so fragmented that I am not really following it at all…. ???? 😮
@156
[quote]Hi Tim, If you could show me the scene in season 8 where this idea was made clear I would appreciate it cause I must have missed it. When was it that Sam explained this rationale to Dean (or anyone else for that matter) so that at least we the fans could have some greater understanding of his point of view? It didn’t happen, not that I saw. I would have been perfectly fine with an explanation like this if it had actually been on my television screen, but it wasn’t. Dean might have still been pissed, but at least Sam’s head space would have been made clear and his rationale could be defensible in the eyes of his brother, the other characters on the show and the fans.[/quote] There was no scene that explicitly stated anything definitive about Sam and his reasons in season 8. If there was there wouldn’t be any discussion in the first place. However, the show has [i]never[/i] explicitly stated anything about Sam. Hell, we still haven’t been told exactly why he drank demon blood or why he went to college etc. However, there [i]was[/i] enough drip fed to us over the season to bring us to some sort of conclusion. The above is merely [i]my[/i] belief, [i]my[/i] argument, [i]my[/i] speculation that this was Sam’s state of mind in season 8 and this is reason why he did what he did. Could it be wrong? Most definitely. Hey, for all we know Sam really is that much of a stupid, selfish, incompetent bastard that he just happily danced off into the sunset when Dean disappeared and not give him a second though. However, for me, from a human aspect, considering everything that has happened to Sam in the past, it makes sense. It ties in with what we know about Sam as a character (he’s logical) and it is supported by both canon (the mistakes made by Sam and Dean in the past have had devastating consequences and have cost people their lives) and interviews by Carver, Singer and Padalecki where they said much the same thing (about not wanting to repeat past mistakes).
I’ve long accepted the fact that the show will not explicitly tell me what Sam is thinking. I haven’t gotten it since I started watching and I don’t expect to get it in the future. However, SPN has never been a show that caters to passive viewing therefore for me to understand and enjoy the show I feel that I need to do more than sit and expect everything to be shown to me. I’m interested enough in Sam as a character and the show as a whole to try and think beyond ‘Oh, it’s OCC’ or ‘Oh, Sam just doesn’t care about Dean’ or ‘Oh, it’s just bad writing’. Therefore I’ve formulated my belief and my speculation based on more than seven seasons of what I saw on the show, not on ten seconds of what I didn’t.
[quote]All we currently have is Sam didn’t look and left Dean to rot because of a (bitchy, unpleasant) girl.[/quote]
We have a lot more than that, some of which I went through @155. Sam explicitly stated that he thought Dean was dead. He explicitly stated that his world imploded. He explicitly stated that the girl had nothing to do with it. Dean didn’t listen (and it seems many of the fans didn’t either), instead choosing to focus solely on the, as you decided to put it, ‘bitchy, unpleasant girl’. However, given that some fans are ignoring what [i]was[/i] said, would it really make a difference if Sam said more?
I am not saying you have no right to be bitter. For the record there many instances this season that had me scratching my head as well. I just don’t understand the interpretations of the characters by some fans. And for the record you are right I shouldn’t come to this thread it can be bewildering.
@Tim #153
A) Agreed, we did see Sam and Dean search for information about Leviathans in Bobby’s books. We didn’t see them research information about the possible aftereffects of a weapon that sent the head of Leviathans back to purgatory or tablets (which makes more sense than trying to research demons or angels in this scenario, and Sam, if he’s thinking with his head, is smart enough to realize), and we didn’t see them search the Campbell compound, to my memory. So that’s still a place to start to me. Of course many sources aren’t reliable—it never stops Sam and Dean from trying to consult them in order to solve problems. Sam and Dean, let alone people in the real world, would rarely get anything done if they only approach tasks they know for sure they can do with ease and refuse to attempt all others. If Dean had refused to bother with trying to mine information from other hunters because they might not be able to help, Sam would have been dead back in 7.18, and Sam knows that. I still can’t get behind the idea that, “Well, this could possibly be a waste of time, so it’s better not to try it at all†is a reasonable philosophy for anyone to adopt, and Sam in particular, given all he’s seen and done.
B) People experience failure all the time. Trying, failing, crashing and burning—this is normal. Now, because he’s a character in a supernatural show, his failures have been more spectacular, I grant you. But the idea that Sam should never try to do anything because he’s failed before doesn’t really work for me. He should learn from experience, I agree—he should learn what the bounds of how far he can and should go in order to reach his goal. If Sam burrows into a hole and refuses to trust himself enough to try, I can’t say that’s being mature. It’s being ruled by fear. If Sam had tried, found out Dean was in purgatory, and made the decision that there was nothing more to be done, this philosophy would make more sense, but when he’s tried nothing and done nothing, it’s just fear. Besides, if we’re going from the theory that Sam can be overwhelmed by grief but logical, then there’s no reason that Sam couldn’t approach this situation and logically recognize the steps he’s willing to take and the steps he’s not.
I definitely agree that the unknown is much harder to cope with—hundreds to thousands of families experience that in real life when a family member disappears without explanation. To my knowledge, they generally don’t figure out their family is missing, assume they’re dead/in a better place, and not bother to call the police or try to find them, just because it’s hard to cope with. That doesn’t seem part of the pattern of normal behavior.
I’m not sure the jumping into hell plan can even be considered thinking with your head, as Sam himself said there was no reason to believe the plan would work. They had never seen anyone be able to overpower an angel once giving permission for possession, so there was no reason to think Sam could do it. It was exactly the kind of risk that rather than leading to a waste of time, could have led to the destruction of the world. So if anything, that decision was different because it was the end of the season and show had already decided what the climax of the arc was going to be, but not because it was logically a better bet. However, in terms of show, it is still an occasion where Sam took an enormous risk with little reason to believe he would be victorious, and he still attempted it anyway. He won.
C) So your argument seems to be, someone was always going to be mad at Sam, so it’s best that he tried nothing and did nothing? Sorry, I can’t agree with the take your ball and go home approach.
D) Again, Dean and Sam regularly face the fact that they have no one they can trust—except they do anyway. We’ve seen Sam and Dean both search for information from dubious sources, including angels, demons, monsters, and other hunters, and they’ve used and trusted information from all of those sources before with successful results. So there’s no reason to think that Sam can’t ask anyone because no one is trustworthy, because otherwise they would never interview anyone or anything because everyone lies. Sam and Dean would never go hunting using that philosophy, and they certainly wouldn’t have saved the lives they have if they refused to listen to anything anyone told them, or refused to try. Again, the things might be a waste of time so it’s better to do absolutely nothing philosophy is pretty much a guarantee you’ll be unsuccessful, don’t you think?
First of all, I’m sorry but I couldn’t read everything on this thread because it makes me even more depressed about S8 and the future S9 (I mean more than I already am). But I have to say that it annoys me to no end how Jeremy Carver decided to suddenly turn Sam and Dean into logical, functional individuals who have “learned their lesson.” I mean Carver was the one who wrote ‘Mystery Spot’ which had Gabriel tell Sam he’s trying to teach him a lesson that he should stop trying to save his brother. And Sam was all like ‘NO WAY.” And our hearts broke into a million pieces but we were content. Because, having stuck with this two and their story, it became apparent that they are damaged individuals, they have an unhealthy co-dependence and a hero complex. So now it seems JC has decided ‘Oh it is about time for Sam and Dean to become rational, well-adjusted members of society and having learned their lessons, embrace a more healthy brotherly relationship?’ As a result, Sam does not look for Dean; and Dean – he rushes to save Sam from saving the world and sacrificing himself in the process. It probably comes as a surprise that I choose to treat these two actions the same, but to me they’re equally out of character, SORRY. I notice people have no problem with Dean not letting Sam go through with the trials, because it seems to highlight how much he cares for Sam. Yes but – did he not care for him in Swan Song, when he let him jump in the pit? Yes, he did, and chose to sacrifice both his brother and himself in the process. That’s the hero complex at work. “We have to save the world. It’s up to us to save it.” – This has been the running thread of the entire show, for 7 seasons. In Season 8 it’s suddenly ‘Oh, we’re still trying to save the world, but we don’t sweat it too much. We have to weigh the consequences. It’s not worth it to close the devil gates forever if Sam dies. We’ll just try to save it on a lower level.” [Meanwhile I guess all those people who Crowley killed to stop them closing the gates, died for nothing. But that’s another issue.] Anyway this kind of attitude coming from the people who took on the Devil head on. On a storytelling level, it comes as a huge letdown. On a character level, it is OOC. I’m just not buying it. Uh — to quote Dean, “this attitude is just way too healthy for me. I am officially uncomfortable now, thank you!” Basically I am against making the show a lighter, more brighter Supernatural. I miss the clever, moody dialogue sprinkled with epicness and the dark, moody cinematography. I miss the first seasons…. I’m sorry for being a whiny bitch 🙁 And I’ll try to read the entire thread, too.
Now, I’d agree that Sam has probably had emotional issues all of his life. So has Dean. To me, what we saw from Sam in the flashbacks was him throwing himself into what he thought he should do, putting one foot in front of the other, and trying to get through the day, because he had a breakdown, just like he did in S1 and S4. I believe that he was supposed to have been depicted as suffering the aftermath of a breakdown in flashbacks, so we are in agreement there. I did not see anywhere where Sam was depicted as at the same time as suffering a breakdown, making the logical choice that he’s done nothing, is all out of ideas, and trying anything might end the world so there was no point to looking. We didn’t any sign that Sam considered his past and decided not to try based on past failure. I’m afraid I have to agree to disagree—for me, show can’t go for the human breakdown made him unable to cope and that’s why he didn’t look story and also credit Sam for with careful logic, making the “mature†decision not to do anything. Either he’s overwhelmed or he’s thinking with his head. Trying to have it both ways just doesn’t work for me.
I suspect this is becoming a circular argument, so again, we can agree to disagree if you like.
Just wanted to chime in and say that, though my life has been too incredibly busy of late to fully participate in any discussions, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed perusing the comments in this “bitterness” thread – which haven’t seemed all that bitter, compared past “bitterness” threads. For my one comment, I didn’t log in and used a different email account because I worried about reading the comments in my inbox – worried that they’d do nothing but frustrate and depress. But this thread overall has seemed to spark some very insightful discussion. I haven’t read everything, but I’ve particularly enjoyed reading some points made by Tim and racestaffer (and one by Prix68 which particularly blew me away with the comment about Sam loving Dean, but putting emotional distance between them because Dean epitomizes everything that causes pain in Sam’s life – brilliant!) as well as Thisoldbag’s comment about Sam and Dean (and the audience) likely all having different interpretations of “looking.” I’ve just really enjoyed what has been on the whole very constructive back-and-forth conversations. Thanks to everyone, and keep it up!
cheryl42- Right there with you! 🙂
Answering to107 mick
X
Quoting isleofskye:
When someone dies they don’t usually disappear body and soul, so Sam being the expert hunter that he is had to suspect that something was not right; it was obvious that Roman’s soul when he died was going straight back to Purgatory, so there was plenty of clues for Sam to go on.
In fact he asks.
Of course it can, Alastair’s first body was destroyed by vanishing into white light. So yeah in certain situations a body can disappear upon death.
I think he learn from his families past mistakes, there are repercussions in trying to bring someone back from the dead, and he accepted Dean’s death.
Well incinerating someone would kill the body and
§ §§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§
Alastair was a different kettle of fish altogether.
First of all he was a demon and not a human, then Sam was focusing his power on him, burning him up, so there was no mystery there.
I maintain that there was no reason for Sam to think Dean had died.
X
He had all the means at his disposal to contact to the spirit world, he could have used them at least to find out if Dean was effectively dead.
Dean could have been simply transported elsewhere or even back in time!
These explanations are just as logical as Dean being dead, at least in the SPN reality.
X
The Sam character has nothing to do with it,
Carver decided he had to ‘not-look ‘and that’s what happened, no more, no less; giving us no explanation other than a ‘my world imploded’ and leaving everyone ( professional critics too ) believing up until the last moment that a supernatural explanation would be forthcoming; so OOC were Sam’s actions.
Racestaffer – This line –
[quote]
c) Dean’s behavior is largely governed by a small, core set of rules. Dean cares more about principles and Sam cares more about successes. [/quote]
– pulled me right out of your discussion. I 100% disagree with this. Sam has never tried to see only black and white issues. He has always tried to find the humanity in the monster. He has always rebelled against killing humans and sacrificing the vessel in order to kill the demon (well, at least he did, I admit they’ve moved from that this season) – even the killing of the nurse in season 4 bothered him, although he believed at the time it was the only way to kill Lilith…..
He is one of the most principled – and torn because of his principles – fictional character on television.
Sorry to admit I didn’t read any further than this line.
I regret that because of it, I can’t follow the rest of your argument.
St50. You should actually read the entire post, it actually makes a lot of sense. I took a step back at that statement also, but after reading further, the argument is valid. 🙂
@ 160
A) It does however tie in with the idea of Sam being so overwhelmed that he didn’t know where to begin. And he [i]would[/i] have been overwhelmed at the end of 7.23. Even the most cynical viewer could see that on his face. Most people act like headless chickens in the immediate aftermath of a big shock so it’d be unrealistic to think that Sam just ran out of Sucrocorp, jumped in the car and headed to the library to research the after-effects of a weapon that sent the head of Leviathans back to Purgatory. It’s entirely feasible that Sam was so overwhelmed in the immediate aftermath of Dean’s disappearance that he just got into the car and drove. He eventually fixed the Impala, maybe hit a dog then, maybe later on. Maybe he started thinking then, maybe later on. Either way Sam got to thinking, and he came to whatever conclusion he came to (Dean was dead, it was too dangerous, he couldn’t help Dean until he helped himself etc etc etc). Whether he came to that conclusion because he was too overwhelmed to think properly, too messed up in the head to act, as a form of self preservation, because it believed it safer to not look or whatever, at some stage Sam believed that Dean was dead. This could have been the reason [i]why[/i] he didn’t look, or something he convinced himself off when he [i]decided[/i] to not look.
The situation with Dean in 7.18 is different because he knew of the existence of healers. It was just a matter of finding one. Healers were not considered monsters or dangerous so there was no reason for hunters to not give the information out. I doubt they’d be so accommodating if Sam rang them up and said ‘Hey, I’m trying to find a way to open the gate to Heaven/Hell/Purgatory, what can you give me?’.
B) However, [i]all [/i]Sam has experienced is failure. Dean went through Sam’s greatest fails this season, twice so rest assured they’ve been at the forefront of Sam’s mind for a long time now. Racestaffer also brought up many of Sam’s failures in his/her excellent post. Sam, as we saw in 8.21, never felt he could be a hero; he could never go on a hero’s journey. Even the victory he had with Lucifer was tainted by what Soulless Sam did after. And yes fear. That oh so human trait. Fear of getting it wrong, fear of making things worse, fear of failing; fear that cripples even the strongest of men. Is Sam somewhat lesser because he feels fear?
Hypothetical question, what limits would you put on Sam’s search? You’ve said he shouldn’t bring him back from the dead but what if Sam found out he was being tortured in hell? Should he bring him back then? What if the price for some info was giving up a bit of blood? I dare say some Sam Winchester Lucifer vessel demon blood might be highly sought after for doing nasty but the sacrifice [i]is[/i] relatively small for possibly large gain so would it be worth it? How about sacrificing an innocent to get Dean back? Sam could pick some random person who won’t be missed or who hasn’t contributed anything to society etc and sacrifice them. I mean, horrible thing to say but surely the life of Dean would be worth more than some nameless person (Dumbledore said something similar to Harry once and if he can do it then so can !)? Or do you feel that Sam should have done whatever it took and worried about the consequences after?
In relation to families dealing with a disappearance: this was not a normal situation. Of all the hundreds and thousands of families who experience a disappearance there are things they can do, there is routine to follow, there is support there for them. They can call the police, use the media, gather friends to help search, put out public appeals etc. None of those options were available to Sam.
In relation to Sam jumping into hell they had exhausted every other option. Sam knew that Lucifer had to be put back in the Cage, he knew that he was his true vessel, that Lucifer was arrogant etc. Sam went to Bobby with a plan, a thought out plan. Castiel agreed it could work. It wasn’t perfect but it was the best they had.
C) Nope, my argument is that no matter what Sam did it wasn’t going to be enough. If he searched for a day or a week or a year it wasn’t going be enough. He decided to not look. He stated his reasons, they were either ignored or were deemed not good enough.
@160
D) It’s also a guarantee that there won’t be innocent lives lost due to them.
And when you’re dealing with something as big as this, I ask you, who do you start with and who do you trust? If a demon told Sam that Dean was in Purgatory should Sam automatically believe him/her and act on that or should he ask someone else? Let’s say an angel then tells him that Dean is in Hell and a Leviathan tells him that Dean is in Heaven, whom should he believe? Which line of enquiry should he follow? None of them are trustworthy so is it a case of just going ‘eenie meenie miney moe’ and acting on that one?
@162: I never stated that we saw the choice or even that there is a choice (between being overwhelmed and thinking with his head). I’ve presented theories, nothing more. As I said to E in an earlier post it makes sense, to me. I’m not going to be quick to just pass whatever I don’t like or is difficult to understand off as bad writing or OCC. I also said nothing about having it both ways (though it [i]is[/i] possible that Sam both suffered a breakdown but was able to make a decision. Many people who suffer breakdowns, whether they are in the midst of one or after one, are capable of making decisions. Whether those are the [i]best[/i] decisions they could have made (and who decides that) is another matter but they made those decisions with the information etc that was available to them at the time.) There are many explanations for Sam’s behaviour. I’ve presented more than one so you can pick whatever one works for you. Or you can pick none of them. However, there have been reasons stated on the show. They might not have been stated explicitly, they might not have been considered enough, but they were there.
And justsaying, 95% of arguments on this board (or any discussion board) are circular. I’d advise you to get used to it!
Wow. Although I know this already, this (not) bitterness thread has helped me understand a little better. It is much easier to Journal Dean, he wears his emotions physically and his actions are dramatized. This is Dean’s story, always has been. Sam requires much more reading between the lines and imagination. His reasons for acting a certain way are subject to each person’s interpretation and POV. I knew this, and yet these posts have given me a greater clarity.
I could write Sam’s Journal. It would be painful, perhaps heartbreaking. But I would need to make greater leaps because we are often not let in on his motivations or even his actions.
Despite Deans “no chick-flick” moments, he is the one that makes his POV known, sometimes quite firmly, other times with great subtlety. Sam is the enigma…but not to me (and others I’m sure). His motivations are subject to interpretation on a much larger scale, and my interpretation would not be the same as others.
Sam has had very few opportunities to share, and that includes what is shown and the nature of the dialog ( how Sam describes it). What we have seen in S8 is flashbacks to a softly focused other life, still not a lot of real information. But we have also seen his deciding not to share and the ever popular trying to share but being stopped by Dean before he can finish. Additionally, in earlier seasons one can see his passive/aggressive side:
Sam asks Dean after the death of John how was he doing. Was Sam really wanting his brother to care enough to ask Sam how he was doing? Dean doesn’t want to talk about it, Sam is asking for help. Dean will eventually tell Sam that he already knows how Sam feels and Sam needs to deal with it. Sam will eventually make a statement about his guilt but is that all? They are both feeling guilty, feeling they disappointed their father and even eachother, but it’s Dean that gets the action and Sam gets a few words. What I wanted to hear was “our father died for you Dean. He would never have done that for me.”
There are those that didn’t understand why Sam would be so upset in S7 about Dean killing Amy and lying about it. But I saw this as Sam clearly reaching out, asking for trust and being rewarded maybe even forgiven. He anchored his sanity to an overly burdened brother and then had to try to find something else to believe in. It didn’t work, and S7 certainly didn’t deliver that message, but that’s how I interpreted it.
Point is, many of Sam’s motivations have been left open to interpretation and are still dangling in the wind. I could write a book of Sam POV starting with leaving to go to Stanford since the material is so vacant. but it would be my POV.
So yes, I see where some of you are coming from, if you are not relating to Sam it’s much more difficult to understand him, or even sympathize with his actions. It’s easier to make a call on Dean’s actions, whether you like them or not, because they are usually explained. Fascinating.
Thanks, racestaffer, for continuing to explain your position. It was incredibly rude of me to comment like I did, and I apologize.
I believe I see your point, and perhaps it is valid.
I am going to bow out now, as I believe I have made my dissatisfaction with season 8 known. I’m finding the continued circular discussions confusing and frustrating, and all I can do is hope and pray that I will be less dissatisfied with season 9.
Carry on.
Deleted. Somehow, a double post.
I had my say very early on in this thread and, although I have randomly followed the discussion, I haven’t joined in. Season 8 was just so bad that I find I have no interest in discussing Sam’s motivations or which brother was in character or out of character. However, blushenka, #161, brought up the point of trashed canon, and that is a very big issue I have with the show. An issue so big, in fact, that I have no hopes that S9 is going to be any better than S8.
The trashed canon has all but ruined the show for me. I’m going to give the premiere, and maybe a couple of episodes after that a chance, because it usually takes more than one episode to lay out the mytharc, but it’s very iffy after that. The reason: the awful, awful, inferior writing. How dare Robert Singer slough off such a critical question, saying the writers write what they want and “hope†the fans like it. That statement shows a complete disregard for the show and for the fans who have loyally supported it for eight years. Are we really so stupid that remaining true to the show and true to the characters won’t matter, as long as two good-looking guys get a fair amount of screen time to satisfy the fix these stupid, shallow people need?
Every beginning writer knows that canon is what keeps the story and the characters honest. Canon keeps the story on point, the plot moving forward, and keeps the writers from writing any old story they dream up, instead of a story where the lead character(s) learn something, show growth, and/or accomplish something important. Writing any old story the writers want has also resulted in the episodes and the leads becoming boring and the monsters NOT scarey – something that started back in S7, but more prevalent in S8.
Taxi Driver was the absolute worst example of a writer just telling any story they wanted to with complete disregard to previous canon, but it was done all season. The only explanation I have been able to come up with as an excuse was that the writing team confused demon mythology with reaper mythology. But didn’t anyone read this script before it was approved? Does Jeremy Carver not know SPN well enough to catch something that big? Does Robert Singer just not care?
Then there’s Ben Edlund and his Grand Canyon line for the sake of a donkey fart joke. Either Ben was purposefully jabbing at the fans for their complaints about trashed canon, or was showing his complete lack of interest in SPN. The unfortunate result of whatever his excuse was is that it completely took away a very poignant and critical point in the show about the brothers and the lives they had lead, why they depended on each other so much, and even John’s whispered message to Dean. A whole season trashed for the sake of a boyish joke? Nah. Edlund is too talented for that. He had to be jabbing the fans.
Not writing so that the leads drive the plots brings about another major complaint I have with the show nowadays, and that is writing stories for the support characters and leaving the leads nothing more than wallpaper. We got a whole backstory on Amelia, on Ben, on the teenager werewolves, and on Krissy and on Charlie to the point where there was character advancement on those two sorry excuses for hunters. We got nothing added to the characterization of Sam and Dean the entire season. In fact, I would say that Dean was digressed and reduced from being anything special. Sam…I can’t speak to Sam, because I don’t know who the real Sam is anymore. Every season we get a different version of Sam to the point that I’ve lost track of who and what he is supposed to be.
This is my major problems with the show, and the only think I can say about anything that came out of Comic Con and the various interviews is that Carver and the writers are tone deaf as to what the fans want. In light of that, I’d say Singer was right on in his response to Alice’s question. The writers are going to do what they want and hope that the fans hang in there with them for lots more season.
@167: racestaffer, great post. I hadn’t realised that the list of failures in relation to Dean alone was so big. If you added in his non Dean related failures then Sam would need to start count them up on both his hands and his feet! Didn’t JP (or someone associated with the show) say in an interview that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? I guess we now know that Sam was not insane (probably just as well given Martin’s fate…)
And your ‘principles v successes’ theory makes a lot of sense. Very often it’s [i]not[/i] the journey but the destination that counts. It has to be; otherwise you’ll just wear yourself to the bone wandering around with no real goal in mind. Sam has been on the same journey for years, possibly even his whole life, and he’s never really gotten anywhere. Maybe the time was right for him to stop walking.
One thing that your post reminded me of was the constraints that Dean put on Sam and what he could and could not do in order to get him (Dean) out of the deal back in season three. He didn’t want him working with or even listening to a demon. He didn’t want him making deals. He didn’t want him working with a monster (Doc Benton). I wonder if those constraints were also on Sam’s mind in the aftermath of Dean’s disappearance.
reply to 176 ginger
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Here! Here! I subscribe to every word.
The canon trashing operated in nearly every episode was overpowering, from the smaller details like having to believe Dean is allergic to cats when we have seen him comfortable at close quarters with felines more than once, to the clunker of the Grand Canyon, to the bottomless well of trashed canon that was Taxi Driver.
I won’t add any more because your post was perfect,
@166:racestaffer, I am not saying that no one has a right to any other opinion besides mine. I just have a tough time understanding the fans interpretation of the characters. I read this thread to try to understand where everyone is coming from. It just seems sometimes that I am watching a completely different show. I am new to fan bitterness. Again for the record not everything worked for me either in S8. Some storylines were very hard to follow.
Also compared to other websites this is a very civil discussion which is very much appreciated. I will continue to enjoy reading the back and forth by far more articulate posters than me. 🙂
Apparently this post was not that clear so I have deleted it, apologies.
@Tim #170
A ) I can agree that Sam was so overwhelmed that his initial reaction was to just run, because he couldn’t face what had happened and didn’t know where to start. When he did start thinking, though, I think he would be capable of seeing that there were steps he could have taken that would not have necessarily led to the end of the world. However,I could envision a scenario where Sam was overwhelmed, and when he was able to regain he would feel guilty because his first instinct was to run and not to find out what happened to Dean. Then he might convinced himself that it had been all right that he hadn’t looked because Dean had to be dead, because people are able to convince themselves all kinds of things to avoid guilt and pain—it’s very human. That makes sense. However, I think it would have been good for Sam to realize and acknowledge that at some point, if it was what canon was trying to portray.
Also, I don’t think that the presence of healers is at all established in show. The only one I can recall is the healer in Faith, and he turned out to be the product of a captured reaper, not a healer. So Dean really was casting out into the void with pretty much nothing but hope. I agree Sam would have had more trouble asking about opening heaven/hell/purgatory—I doubt he would have had the same reaction asking about leviathan, tablets, or the aftereffects of special weapons, which would have been the place I think would have been the most logical for Sam to start.
B) Dean listing Sam’s failures in S8 doesn’t logically link to them being in the forefront of Sam’s mind in S7, particularly when in S7 Sam had declared himself guilt-free. That’s cart before the horse and a bit blame-Dean-ish for me. Again, Sam did have a major victory—he saved the world from Satan and the apocalypse, so I don’t agree all he’s experienced is failure.
As for putting limits on Sam’s search, it’s almost a moot point, because Sam put the limit of refusing to take any action on himself. There’s no canon that supports that he did so because he didn’t believe he was good enough to do so or that he always failed—on the contrary, if Sam didn’t believe that he couldn’t try something because he would fail, he wouldn’t have taken on the trials at all. But if you want a hard limit, I would say destroying himself or destroying innocents would be the line for me.
Sam has had Dean disappear before his eyes before—it happened in S7. He used the research he had and called the resource he could find, Sheriff Mills. So he did have a blueprint to follow before.
Meh, I don’t think Sam and Dean had exhausted every possibility in defeating Lucifer. Two episodes before the idea was introduced, Dean had thought saying yes was the only chance to save the world, and he was talked out of it because they would find another way, though they had no idea what that would be. When Sam came up with the same idea, sacrificing himself, it was suddenly the only option. As far as I could tell, nothing had changed to take them from “We’ll find a way†to “This is the only chanceâ€, except it was the end of the season and this was the ending Kripke wanted.
C) I agree and disagree. Of course for some Dean fans it wasn’t going to be enough, just like for some Sam fans nothing Dean does will ever be good enough. For some fans, Sam trying and failing would have been good enough and even sympathetic. However, some fans not being satisfied still doesn’t mean that doing nothing was the right choice, in my opinion. Some will agree with that and some won’t.
D) I don’t understand what you mean—lives are being lost to demons, angels, monsters, and hunters every day. Dean and Sam still have worked with them. I’ve already stated who I would start with and that Sam and Dean have had to determine what is true and what isn’t from dubious sources before. These are not new circumstances for Sam. I don’t suppose dealing with the what-ifs matters, because Sam didn’t put himself in the position to make any decisions about these issues.
Oh, I don’t pass it off as bad writing because I don’t like it—I don’t like it because I think it’s bad writing. We don’t have to agree on that, but I didn’t find it good writing or characterization. I saw show trying to have it both ways with Sam, depending on what they were writing at the time, instead of as a complete and complex bit of characterization, and I can’t praise that making Sam’s characterization choose-your-own-interpretation.
As for the circular arguments—trust me, I’m aware that that’s 95% of the discussion. I was just trying to politely say I didn’t see the conversation going anywhere and that I was losing interest. Thanks for the advice anyway!
Thanks racestaffer. I’m glad (and relieved) you didn’t think me rude. And I do think I get what you mean now.
It’s all good. 🙂
[quote]reply to 176 ginger
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Here! Here! I subscribe to every word.
The canon trashing operated in nearly every episode was overpowering, from the smaller details like having to believe Dean is allergic to cats when we have seen him comfortable at close quarters with felines more than once, to the clunker of the Grand Canyon, to the bottomless well of trashed canon that was Taxi Driver.
I won’t add any more because your post was perfect,[/quote]
Well, there is one other major point that I failed to mention, and that is that there was no payoff to the entire season. When each writer is writing their own story, instead of writing for the lead characters (the leads should drive the plot; not visa versus…or when they write for support (residual) characters (Hello, Robbie Thompson)… that’s the result.
The fans were repeatedly told at Comic Con that the payoff was that the brothers chose each other in the end for the first time. Didn’t the fans already know that since S1? Moreso, though, isn’t the reason that the brothers are heroes is because they fight for the higher purpose of saving others from the life that they have lead? Besides the fact that the hardship of that life was whitewashed with the Grand Canyon line (family vacations? Seriously?), heroic mini-Winchesters saving experienced hunters, apparently other children all over the country being raised in the same way as the Winchesters, a goofy aging and unqualified geek picking up the hunter’s mantle and; once again, saving the experienced hunters, and a village idiot taking up Bobby’s mantle, what was the result of the season’s weak plot?
Demons will continue killing people. The angels fell. Metatron is only interested in Cas’ story (didn’t even know who the Winchesters were). And, the natural order, that Death told Dean several years ago to clean up, is even more messed up. That equals no payoff to a season-long story.
What if Sam had chosen to complete the trials and closed the Gates of Hell? He would have died. So what? Death means nothing in the SPNverse. He would just have been resurrected in some miraculous way and the fight would only be with the angels.
No payoff, or a very unsatisfactory one that has to be repeatedly verbalized in interviews , should be a major red flag to the showrunner and to the writers that the season was an epic miss in every sense.
The whole idea that the season was trashing canon is so overblown, a farting donkey joke ruined the show, because it contradicted a throwaway line from season three? Please.
As for the cat thing, you are aware that you are able to develop allergies at any point in your life. Cats included.
The show has retconned or tweak the mythology from the beginning. I mean if we are going to be using the “farty donkey” as the new gold standard for trashing canon, Kripke did it himself all the back in season one with the look and function of demons. Then there’s probably one of the biggest bits of retconning, which was “only an angel can kill another angel.”
And if we are talking about the payoff of the season, looking back at the other finales, the Winchesters have for the most part always failed with their seasonal goals, and even when they did succeed it came with consequences
@181
A) Sam rarely talks about himself or explains himself. He usually has to be drunk, drugged up or on deaths door to do it. However, perhaps in relation to understanding the character, the writers thought it more important to give viewers the means to discuss why Sam did what he did and come to their own conclusion rather than just having Sam say he made a mistake, was wrong etc. And I’m not sure if fans would be appeased if Sam just said ‘Huh, I thought you were dead. Sorry ‘bout that’ and that was the end of the matter.
The idea of healers was introduced back in 1.12 so they’ve been around since then. Sam wouldn’t have been looking for them as a way to save Dean’s life if their existence was in doubt.
The only people who know about the tablets (and the info on it) was them, and Kevin. And asking about the ‘after-effects of special weapons’ is a bit random. I mean, the after effect of the Colt, which was a special weapon, was death. That’s actually been the after-effect of pretty much every ‘special weapon’ they’ve used on the show!
B) Pointing out that Dean said something that he actually said is blame-Dean-ish??? My point was that if Dean is thinking it then guaranteed Sam is thinking it. I never said that Sam only remembered those things because Dean reminded him. For all that Sam declared himself guilt-free, he certainly isn’t absent minded enough to forget what he did in the first place and the consequences of same. The Apocalypse and your involvement in it isn’t something that would slip your mind.
In relation to declaring limits on Sam’s search a ‘moot point’, this is the point that I was initially trying to raise. It’s constantly being said that Sam should have looked for Dean but when it comes to specifics it becomes a ‘moot point’ or it ‘doesn’t matter’ because Sam didn’t do what some people think he should have done. However, in order to try and make it [i]not[/i] a moot point we have to try and understand why he did it. Trying to put ourselves in his head space and in his shoes is one way of doing that.
In relation to not being good enough etc, Sam declared back in season 5 that he was the ‘least of all of them’. Nothing happened between then and now that might have made him change his mind. He said in 8.23 that he knew he could never go on a hero’s quest. That’s how he felt since he was a child so it’s fairly deeply ingrained in Sam. This feeling of never being good enough is part of Sam’s character so could well have played a role in Sam’s decision.
Re: taking on the trials, (apart from the fact that if he didn’t step in then Dean would be dead), Sam decided to continue with the trials to initially give Dean a chance at a happy life and as we found out later, as a form of ‘suicide by cop’ so that he wouldn’t let Dean down again. Hmmm, not wanting to let him down again, another valid glimpse into Sam’s head.
Re Time After Time. They were in the middle of a case involving Chronos (the God of Time) when Dean disappeared so Sam had his definitive starting point and he knew what direction to go in. He didn’t after 7.23 so no, he didn’t have a blueprint.
Re Jodie Mills, Sam originally asked her to bring boxes, that’s all. He didn’t want her helping him but she insisted. If she got involved after 7.23 they’d be dealing with demons, angels, Leviathans etc, something much more dangerous than a bog standard monster of the week. (Hell, she almost lost her life because she knew them in 8.23.)
Dean was talked out of saying ‘Yes’ to Michael because the only reason he was saying ‘Yes’ was because he didn’t trust Sam to say ‘No’. He was planning to say yes out of desperation and defeat. And Dean saying ‘Yes’ to Michael would result in either (a) half the population dying or (b) all the population dying. If Sam’s plan didn’t work then they’d be in the same position they would have been if Dean had said yes. If it worked they’d save everyone.
C) Too bad trying and failing has such dire consequences for all and sundry!
@181
D) I was referring to lives lost as a result of Sam and Dean’s mistakes in the past, both people they know (Jo, Ellen, Ash etc) and those they don’t (those who died as a result of all those natural disasters when Lucifer rose etc). If Sam decided to not get involved this time then no lives would be lost directly as a result of Sam’s mistakes. People will die, of course they will, but not specifically because of anything he’s done.
Also, losing his brother again, doing it on his own, not having a clue where to start, being not long out of a mental institution, carrying around the memories of the Cage and being soulless and all his mistakes in the past etc, all at the same time, [i]was[/i] new to Sam. Every man has his breaking point, losing Dean (again) was Sam’s.
And dealing with the ‘What if’s’ does matter. Sam certainly thinks of them. That’s why he elicited the promise from Dean before he jumped in the Cage. He knew that if he didn’t then there was a danger Dean would do huge damage (to himself and others) trying to get him out.
We’ve always had to choose our own interpretation when it comes to Sam. That won’t change any time in the future. My point is that there was enough shown to be able to interpret Sam. If there wasn’t we wouldn’t be able to choose our own interpretation.
And it’s funny, for all that entire storyline is passed off as ‘bad writing’, it’s been the talking point of the season, has led to umpteen discussions, speculation is still ongoing, the character analysis (by those who focus on the character) has been excellent, there have been tens of thousands of words written about it and no definitive conclusion has been arrived at, because there are no simple, one word answers when it comes to explaining people and why they do what they do, they’re much more complex than that. Isn’t that the very definition of good writing?
Finally, with all due respect, if you don’t see the conversation going anywhere (though sometimes a conversation is just a conversation, there doesn’t have to be a consensus on a point reached) and you’re losing interest in it, then why do you persist in furthering it?? I mean, you bring up new points with every reply you make which, on an open forum, invites those new points to be discussed.
That being said, feel free to end this conversation any time you like. Trust me, I won’t take offense or consider you impolite!
replying to 184 ginger
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Again all valid points.
The season had no pay-off as you say. Closing the Gates of Hell was pimped as the series arc but it was a goal intrinsically unattainable..
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Looking at the big picture; if God had designed a Heaven and Hell, he did so for a reason, and shutting one off without the other meant messing with the balance that had been created. It was a no go from the beginning.
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Then as you say, the main characters should lead the story while the secondary ones fall in behind,but here the secondary characters took precedence over the brothers, each writer trying to give us his own mini SPN in the one episode; Krissy, Charlie,James and Portia; Garth who was mentioned continuously in episodes he didn’t even appear in.
Then IMO trying to make him out as the new Bobby was an insult to the older hunter. seeing that a few seasons back, Bobby himself considered Garth as very mediocre.
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The brothers have always chosen each other, perhaps at times going down a rocky road.to do so. That was the heart of SPN. ‘The Epic Story of Sam and Dean.” We didn’t need Carver to tell us something we had known for seven seasons.
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Yes, the brothers being introduced into the hunting life as children because of Mary’s tragedy, was supposed to be this big unique story-line, then they cheapen that with the Krissy teen team,
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They cheapened [i]all[/i] the Wnchesters back story, in every way, from their terror of being sent to Hell , to the hardships they had both suffered during their lives.
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How Meratron didn’t know about the Winchesters is astounding seeing that he was the scribe of God who should supposedly have written down the prophesy of the Winchesters’ involvement in the Apocalypse. Duh!
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For me Season eight was an epic fail,
I enjoy watching all the other seasons, even with any flaws they may have, but I have watched season eight only once and have no curiosity to view it again.
As for season nine, it’s just more of the same with an extra dollop of boring angels, going by what’s being spoiled.
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After Dean fighting the fairies, he will now be fighting something even more ludicrous,.
A terribly sad ending for such a wonderful bad-ass character who is at his best when rooting out evil; and a terrible end for Sam too who is morphed into whatever character the writers need him to be for the story they are telling.
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These writers have no respect for these two unique characters and I’m really sad about that.
Introducing Krissy and the other kids does not cheapen the Winchesters in any way that’s just ridiculous bitching for the sake of bitching. None of the back story is cheapened in any way.
No Metatron shouldn’t have known who the Winchesters are, he basically wrote instruction manuals about Creation. He theoretically left Heaven before the angels started manipulating the Winchester/Campbell family bloodlines to get the Apocalypse ball rolling.
Dean and Sam are still great characters, always have been always will. And Garth being an insult to Bobby, hyperbole much? In fact most complaints I’ve read for this season scream of overblown hyperbole.
reply to 191
The writing for season eight [i]has [/i]cheapened the Winchesters’ back story and the importance of previous seasons IMO; opinion which is just as valid as yours and which I believe i have expressed in an acceptable manner.
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The one thing I do agree with you is that Sam and Dean are great characters and it’s a pity to see them relegated to wallpaper, or made to seem incapable, looking on as others do their job for them.
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Am I exaggerating the inadequacy that was season eight?
In my opinion I’m not, and I know many viewers agree with me, just as there are many who take your viewpoint.
Fair enough.
I agree with Time the Enchanter comments at #186&187 and Mick at #191. You both express feelings better than I can.
Tim, racestaffer and just saying. I have really enjoyed the back and forth that’s been going on about the “Sam issue” and you all make very good points, and I can absolutely see the rationale in much of what you say as well. But for me there was not enough shown of Sam’s plight after Dean disappeared; not nearly enough information was given to show his state of mind or what he was really going through in those few months before he hit the dog. I did not see the effects of “I imploded” and “I ran…” I saw nothing of substance in those sentiments displayed by Sam himself with the exception of his upset over the dog, which can easily be attributed to the actual dog. To me he seemed remarkably OK for the most part for someone supposedly so deep in grief, and the fact remains that we got very little explanation from Sam himself, just a few lines of dialog said without emotion and not expanded upon at all. The whole set up continues to feel OOC for me despite all of your wonderful arguments to the contrary because I did not see what you-all saw in Sam’s characterization, I just didn’t see it, so I can’t believe in his actions. Until the finale, that is, and that did not address the issue at hand just the long term repercussions of the issue at hand. So, I guess I will have to agree to disagree on this one and I will continue to hope that the writers will decide to fill in some of the blanks that still exist IMO. Thanks for a great discussion.
If you all don’t mind, I’m moving this comment from the Speculation thread to the Bitterness thread. It’s not bitterness but neither is it speculation.
@51 Ginger, I asked if you believed that Benny was the wrong guy because you liked the character because this [quote]I’ll offer the proof for Benny, because these writers have a very bad habit of killing off interesting, good characters (and Benny was one of those), [/quote]was part of the first line of your post.
Secondly, it was [i]not[/i] shown onscreen that Benny was the wrong guy. Nowhere was it stated and nowhere did we see that Desmond was the one who was killing. All that was offered as ‘proof’ was Benny’s word. And Benny, by his own admission, lies. What WAS canon was that we saw Benny with blood on his hands after burying a victim, standing over a dead body and turning down a path after someone who soon after died at the hands of a vampire.
@52 Martin found the photograph after he was made aware of Elizabeth’s relationship with Benny. And I’m sorry if you’re tired of hearing about Amy, but she is applicable to the discussion, that is why she was brought up. The length of time they spent together notwithstanding, Sam owes Amy his life. It doesn’t really matter if Amy had an alternative reason for killing her mother, Sam owes Amy his life. Dean owes Benny his life, but Benny didn’t save Dean for altruistic reasons. He had his own alternative reason for helping Dean.
In relation to Amy’s son possibly getting sick again in the future so Amy might have to kill again is it not then possible that Benny might start to kill again in the future. Why does one get the benefit of the doubt and not the other?
In relation to Dean feeling a kinship toward Benny and being reluctant to kill him and whatnot, does this not actually prove Sam’s point; that Dean was too close to this, as he was to Amy?
I’ve no problem with Dean following his moral compass. I’ve a problem with Dean deciding that his moral compass is the only one worth considering, and takes measures to ensure that his is the only one that counts. I’ve a problem with Dean deciding that he doesn’t need to explain his moral compass. I’ve a problem with Dean’s moral compass judging similar situations in different ways, depending on whatever Dean wants. Moral compasses are usually consistent. Dean’s is not.
There was a multitude of ways that Dean could have dealt with the Sam and Benny situation, even in [i]Citizen Fang[/i]. As I said, he could have taken Sam with him. He could have told Benny to get out of town while they deal with the vampire situation that remained. He didn’t.
And there’s really no need to apologise for adding to the discussion. That is, after all, what it is there for.
@54
Bevie, I’m really quite intrigued as to why you refer to the discussion in relation to Dean and Amy as a ‘condemnation’ of him. I ask because I was under the (evidently misguided) impression that I was merely discussing it. Imagine my surprise when I realised that discussing things that Dean did is now considered by some to be condemning him!
However, allow me to point out some similarities between the Amy and Benny situation:
Sam was Amy’s friend. Benny was Dean’s friend.
Amy saved Sam’s life. Benny saved Dean’s life.
Sam trusted Amy. Dean trusted Benny.
Amy killed for family. Benny killed for family.
Dean killed Amy because she was a monster who was killing. Sam believed that Benny should be killed because he was a monster who was killing people.
@64 Realistically, what is wrong with Martin watching Benny? I mean, if Benny was doing nothing wrong then it shouldn’t be a problem, right? And what exactly was the right thing to do (whatever the reasons) here? Should Sam have just left a vampire go unchecked because Dean believed (or did he) that he wouldn’t do anything? Isn’t part of the Winchester motto to ‘hunt things’ or is hunting things no longer the right thing to do? And yes, Sam let monsters go in the past, though more often than not was proved wrong for doing so. Hell, Dean was constantly telling him he was wrong to do so.
Sam’s inferiority complex was there from the time he was a child. We saw that in 8.21. I’m not sure how it applies to Sam having an inferiority complex specifically in relation to Benny (and acting only on that) given that Dean trusted Castiel and Sam never had an issue with that.
cont.
I believe that Sam’s issues with Benny arose when he met him and realised that Dean had been keeping him secret for all that time. In fact, even after Sam found out about Benny, Dean still told him next to nothing about him. Do you not think that given his own history with Ruby, that should not have sent up warning bells for Sam? I mean, if Benny was nothing to worry about then why did Dean feel the need to keep him a secret?
One alternative to sending the text were to tell Sam the truth; that he was going to kill the other vampire and Benny was with him. This would have given some validity to Benny’s previous statement and given Sam pause for thought.
#195 &196 – Dean actually has a very simple and unchanging set of moral codes and one of them is loyalty. Dean felt a strong loyalty to Benny for having his back in purgatory and for being a comrade in arms. Dean chose not to involve Sam in helping Benny when Benny called and told Sam he was taking care of personal crap. Which he was. Benny had been fighting every day for fifty years in purgatory and Sam had just taken a year off from hunting so I think it was wise on Dean’s part to keep Sam away from Benny when Sam was threatening to kill Benny way before Martin came on the scene. No matter how you try to spin it, Sam knowing Amy for a couple hours some 15 years ago isn’t the same as spending a year side by side fighting for your life with someone. Dean did not tell Sam it was wrong to let Lenore go, he actually applauded that decision and they both agreed in “Bitten”. Sam had no real proof that Benny had killed except Martin’s circumstantial evidence. Dean was still trying to persuade Sam when he got cold cocked by Martin and handcuffed by Martin and Sam. Maybe Dean would have taken Sam with him if Martin hadn’t knocked him out.
Tim the Enchanter – I also believe Dean was fully prepared to attempt to kill Benny if he thought he was killing people again. Also Benny saved Dean from Desmond, which he didn’t have to do since Benny was already topside. Ruby saved the brothers to keep Sam alive and trusting her until he had killed Lilith and she had accomplished her mission.
@197 & 198.
For as much as ‘loyalty’ is one of Dean’s moral codes, his other moral code, the one that drove him for years was ‘Saving people, hunting things.’ Now it’s a case that his moral codes are in direct conflict with each other. Dean openly said in [i]Citizen Fang[/i] that he was willing to risk innocent lives on Benny’s word. And I’m sorry, but I find it hard to believe that Dean considered Sam so rusty after a year that he left him out of a hunt. Sam had been back hunting a good while (4 episodes, whatever that is in ‘real’ time) at that stage. I also find it strange given that (a) he himself was out of the hunt for a year after the end of season 5 and never considered himself rusty (b) a few short episodes after that he was warning Benny of how dangerous Sam was. Sam didn’t become dangerous overnight.
prix68 you can consider the timing irrelevant if you want but the fact is that Sam trusted Amy, Sam believed Amy when she said she would not kill again, Amy saved Sam’s life. Who are you or I to dictate how much time a person should spend getting to know someone else before deciding they are worthy of trust? For heaven’s sake, Dean has known Sam for years, has fought with him for years, has had his life saved by Sam for years and he [i]still[/i] doesn’t trust him. So perhaps it’s not the length of time that is relevant?
In [i]Bloodlust[/i] Dean got onto Sam’s case about Lenore. “I don’t know why they let you go. I don’t really care. We find ’em, we waste ’em.” ” Of course they’re killing people, that’s what they do. They’re all the same, Sam. They’re not human, okay? We have to exterminate every last one of them.” It was only when he saw the situation with his own two eyes that he changed his mind. Perhaps if Sam had been paid the same consideration he’d have changed his mind?
In relation to the ‘real proof’, Sam said that they had killed for a lot less, and they had. Neither had Dean any proof that it was not Benny that was killing. And as circumstantial as it was, at least Martin [i]had[/i] evidence, what did Dean have?
I don’t believe that Dean had any more persuading to do. I can’t see what he [i]could[/i] have said to persuade Sam and Martin at that stage. He had hauled out the ‘Benny never let me down card’, perhaps as a last ditch attempt to get Sam to do what he wanted (use the guilt factor, make Sam think that he (Sam) can’t be trusted etc?). He had just declared that he was willing to risk innocent lives and that was something that Martin, and Sam, were not willing to do. Only on this show would that be considered the wrong thing to do!
And if Dean didn’t bring Sam to Benny when he was calm then he certainly wasn’t going to bring him to Benny when Sam’s blood was up!
In relation to Dean being fully prepared to kill Benny if he thought he was killing people again, unfortunately Dean more than insinuated that he would not be the one to kill Benny.
In relation to Benny saving Dean from Desmond, I do wonder what Sam would do to Benny when he found out that his brother died while with Benny. I’d say Benny’d be digging a hole back to Purgatory with his hands to get away from him! It’s interesting that you brought up Ruby as Sam’s experiences with her surely played a part in his mistrust of Benny. Once bitten, twice shy and all that.
@ #195 Tim the Enchanter: I’m glad you moved this discussion to this thread. I feel more comfortable commenting on the issue here.
I like Ty O., because he is a talented actor. I liked how Dean and Benny’s evolving friendship was shown. I didn’t like Benny always asking for Dean’s help until the purpose of that was shown (Benny paying back his debts to Dean) in Taxi Driver.
I find it hard to address your points about Benny, because I feel like you are not giving an honest argument. For instance, I know the majority of the writers wrote extremely linear episodes, but showing Desmond killing the two victims and then telling the episode’s story would have been way too linear even for this bunch of writers; not to mention that it would have taken all suspense out of the episode.
As I recall, this episode was the one before a hiatus and there were two cliffhangers: Amelia showing up in the bar and did Benny drink Martin’s blood. It gave no clue as to where the season’s mytharc was headed.
There was simply no way that Benny was guilty of killing anything in this episode except Martin, because the cliffhanger was about whether Benny had drank Martin. Remember the big pool of blood left behind? Besides that and the points I made in my earlier post, the audience knew from a much earlier episode that Benny had quit killing humans before he went to Purgatory for 50 years and we also knew that he was fighting his bloodlust. The question was, did he give into it with crazy Martin threatening his granddaughter.
We also had Sam giving clues to the audience in Citizen Fang when he told Martin “sometimes it’s not easy to see things for what they are.†(Cue Amelia flashback)
Then we had Martin frantically stabbing the ice cube tray; i.e., showing that Martin was clearly nuts and slipping, which he did once Sam violated the No. 1 hunter’s rule of not abandoning your partner in the middle of a hunt…and especially in a vamp nest in the middle night in the middle of nowhere. It also made Stanford Sam look stupid for going with Martin (while leaving his brother handcuffed to a radiator).
All of this back and forth is really pointless now, because by the end of the season, Dean told Sam that Dean was completely devoted to him above all else, regardless of any of Sam’s past actions or choices, and Dean found his limit to hunting – he would not sacrifice Sam for the good of mankind. In other words, as the mantra from Comic Con goes, “The brothers chose each other for the first time.†That was the mytharc for the season, and my opinion is that the road to getting there this season was extremely boring, and Carver’s idea of both Winchesters was downright boring. Sam spent the season stumbling around sick or being the damsel in distress and an apron was hung around Dean so that he could take care of support characters. That’s not my favorite flavor of either Winchester.
@ #195 Tim the Enchanter: I’m glad you moved this discussion to this thread. I feel more comfortable commenting on the issue here.
I like Ty O., because he is a talented actor. I liked how Dean and Benny’s evolving friendship was shown. I didn’t like Benny always asking for Dean’s help until the purpose of that was shown (Benny paying back his debts to Dean) in Taxi Driver.
I find it hard to address your points about Benny, because I feel like you are not giving an honest argument. For instance, I know the majority of the writers wrote extremely linear episodes, but showing Desmond killing the two victims and then telling the episode’s story would have been way too linear even for this bunch of writers; not to mention that it would have taken all suspense out of the episode.
As I recall, this episode was the one before a hiatus and there were two cliffhangers: Amelia showing up in the bar and did Benny drink Martin’s blood. It gave no clue as to where the season’s mytharc was headed.
There was simply no way that Benny was guilty of killing anything in this episode except Martin, because the cliffhanger was about whether Benny had drank Martin. Remember the big pool of blood left behind? Besides that and the points I made in my earlier post, the audience knew from a much earlier episode that Benny had quit killing humans before he went to Purgatory for 50 years and we also knew that he was fighting his bloodlust. The question was, did he give into it with crazy Martin threatening his granddaughter.
We also had Sam giving clues to the audience in Citizen Fang when he told Martin “sometimes it’s not easy to see things for what they are.†(Cue Amelia flashback)
Then we had Martin frantically stabbing the ice cube tray; i.e., showing that Martin was clearly nuts and slipping, which he did once Sam violated the No. 1 hunter’s rule of not abandoning your partner in the middle of a hunt…and especially in a vamp nest in the middle night in the middle of nowhere. It also made Stanford Sam look stupid for going with Martin (while leaving his brother handcuffed to a radiator).
All of this back and forth is really pointless now, because by the end of the season, Dean told Sam that Dean was completely devoted to him above all else, regardless of any of Sam’s past actions or choices, and Dean found his limit to hunting – he would not sacrifice Sam for the good of mankind. In other words, as the mantra from Comic Con goes, “The brothers chose each other for the first time.†That was the mytharc for the season, and my opinion is that the road to getting there this season was extremely boring, and Carver’s idea of both Winchesters was downright boring. Sam spent the season stumbling around sick or being the damsel in distress and an apron was hung around Dean so that he could take care of support characters. That’s not my favorite flavor of either Winchester.
Hi Tim,
Just a few thoughts. One is that I think Dean was more than prepared to kill Benny if he thought he was killing people. He had a machete (or something similar) behind his back when he confronted Benny. I do think he was prepared to use it no matter what he insinuated. Did he cut Benny more slack than he should have? Maybe. Things were a little murky IMO as to whether or not Benny was a complete innocent
in that episode. Dean ultimately did kill him so he was capable of it.
We differ on the question as to whether or not Dean trusts Sam, that’s OK, but are you basing this on the 1st half of the season or the series as a whole? I have always felt that Dean trusts Sam absolutely with most of the important things like having his back, being his partner, listening to and respecting Sam’s contributions. The Ruby thing wasn’t conducive to trust and neither was the Amy thing. Keeping things from each other is what affects trust the most between them, I think ,not the life and death issues that they face daily. My 2 cents for what it’s worth (2 pennies I guess)
Tim – Hunting things, saving people is the Family Business mission statement not Dean’s morale code and it was in “Blood Lust” that Sam convinced Dean that all monsters were not the same. (Lenore) Benny allowed Andrea to be killed because she stll wanted to hunt and never quibbled with Dean about it and saved Castiel’s life in purgatory. See #102 and # 103 for the rest of my arguments as I agree with those and don’t want to repeat.
@200 Ginger, thank you for your reply. You know, I’m not sure what exactly I can do to make my argument more ‘honest’ for you. I based it on what was shown on screen (ie, the situations we saw Benny in). I’m also basing it on years of past canon where, as Dean said, monsters are what they are. I’m basing it on Dean’s ‘argument’ which amounted to nothing more than ‘Benny said this’ and also the idea that the only way that Dean could invalidate or cast doubt on what Martin saw and believed was by playing on old, and hugely unfair, prejudices; questioning his mental health. (However, doing so was rather short sighted as Dean himself spent time in a mental health facility. It was suggested that he would benefit from more time there. He has also had issues with alcoholism, depression, PTSD and suicidal tendencies in the recent past so if Martin’s mental health is being used a reason to not trust his judgment then the same consideration should be paid to Dean and his judgment. Actually, it’s ironic, for all Dean’s loaded remarks about Martin, between Sam, Dean and Martin, Martin was probably the sanest!) You based yours on what Dean was told on-screen so may I ask, why do you feel that I am not giving an honest argument (and you evidently are)?
[quote]As I recall, this episode was the one before a hiatus and there were two cliffhangers: Amelia showing up in the bar and did Benny drink Martin’s blood. It gave no clue as to where the season’s mytharc was headed.[/quote] Why is the second cliffhanger an isolated event ie why was it solely about Benny drinking from Martin, surely one could lead into the other ie was Martin just [i]another[/i] of Benny’s victims, the one that Dean could not deny, not was Martin Benny’s [i]first[/i] victim? Could the cliffhanger not have been the potential fallout to that?
[quote]There was simply no way that Benny was guilty of killing anything in this episode except Martin, …… The question was, did he give into it with crazy Martin threatening his granddaughter.[/quote] Or did he give in prior to killing Martin and decided to use Desmond as a cover?
You know, Ginger, you keep saying things like ‘there was simply no way this’, ‘it is canon that’; there [i]was[/i] a way, and it is [i]not[/i] canon. With all due respect, I’m not pulling my belief that Benny could easily have been guilty of killing more than Martin out of nowhere. It’s based on what was shown on screen in [i]Citizen Fang[/i], what was said by Benny about lying, and being aware that not everything is as it seems ie there is more than one way of looking at a situation. There are [i]many[/i] ways that Benny could have been guilty of killing more than Martin. I went through them in my ‘not honest’ argument, remember? I’m not saying that Benny was definitely guilty but it’s a complete fallacy to say that Benny was definitely innocent.
[quote]We also had Sam giving clues to the audience in Citizen Fang when he told Martin “sometimes it’s not easy to see things for what they are.â€[/quote] Why do you automatically assume that applies only to Sam? It could easily apply to Dean ie that Dean (and some of the viewers) are the ones for whom it is not easy to see things for what they are when it comes to Benny?
If you look at things from Sam and Martin’s point of view: Benny is in a town where there are vampire kills. Martin saw Benny follow a victim down a path, heard a scream and came across Benny standing over the body of a victim. (Were Benny not Dean’s friend, Dean would have had no problem him being decapitated on that alone.) Martin calls Sam, tells him the story and they go to Martin & Benny. (Martin sounds remarkably sane so far.) When there, Dean asserts his belief that Benny is not the one doing the killing and asks for time to prove it, which Sam gives him. Martin is incredulous, as any hunter would be, (as incredulous as Dean was with Sam in relation to Lenore, Ruby and Amy) that a hunter was siding with a vampire. Dean goes to Benny and gets a Bart Simpson defence ‘No officer, it wasn’t me that done it, it was that other dude’. Benny pushes all of Dean’s right buttons (he does know him well from Purgatory), talking about family and struggle and how he’s trying to do the right thing. He gets nothing tangible from Benny in relation to proof, not the other vampires name, his location, an invitation to go hunt him; all Dean has is Benny’s word that another vampire is even there. This is what he brings back to Sam and Martin.
cont.
Sam was amenable to being convinced, this is why he gave Dean the time he asked for. Dean’s argument was unconvincing. He simply told them to trust Benny’s word. That’s not proof. They don’t know Benny so they have no reason to trust Benny. Dean actually went to great lengths to ensure that Sam did not get to know Benny so from Sam’s POV, why would Dean do that if Benny was truly trustworthy? Sam reminds Dean that they’ve killed before with a lot less evidence than Dean presented in this situation and also reminded him that things don’t turn out well for them when they go on trust. Dean agrees with him and recognises that all his relationships have turned to crap. However, he says this one is different, because it’s Benny. He offers no further evidence. Sam presents the argument that Dean was too close to the situation (an argument Dean himself used in the past). Dean says that he is willing to risk innocent lives based on a relationship he has with a vampire while also acknowledging that all his relationships have turned to crap in the past, with detrimental results. Why would Sam believe that this relationship, and the consequences of, would be any different?
[quote]Then we had Martin frantically stabbing the ice cube tray; i.e., showing that Martin was clearly nuts and slipping….. It also made Stanford Sam look stupid for going with Martin (while leaving his brother handcuffed to a radiator).[/quote] Ginger, if the only thing is that episode that constitutes proof that ‘Martin was clearly nuts’ is that he stabbed an ice cube tray then there are a whole lot more crazy people walking around the place than I think you’d be comfortable with!
In relation to breaking rule no 1, isn’t that exactly what Dean did in [i]Blood Brothers[/i] when he abandoned Sam in the middle of a hunt to go to Benny’s assistance? So if you believe it makes Sam look stupid should I assume you believe that it made Dean look stupid when he did the same thing? Sam prioritised; Amelia over vampires. Dean prioritised: Benny over Kevin and the gates of hell. For me, it showed how desperate and fearful Sam was and how much he loved Amelia that he dropped everything to help her. And given that Dean had planned this well in advance, it’s unlikely he was counting on Sam’s ‘stupidity’ to drop everything and leave.
Also, when ‘Stanford Sam’ (not quite sure why you gave him the nickname, do you just like alliteration?) left, Martin did what Sam and Dean have also done in the past, hunted alone. [i]He[/i] wasn’t going to risk another innocent victim based on the word of a man who was friends with a vampire, a vampire he had valid reason to believe was killing people. Martin used family to lure out a monster (not exactly pleasant but we’ve seen many hunters, including Sam and Dean, do it so not exactly insane). He did what any hunter (who isn’t Sam and Dean) would do, and tried to kill a vampire. He fails but as per Dean, he ‘had it coming’. (Should I believe then, going by Dean’s words, every hunter who dies in the field of battle ‘had it coming’ because they were also trying to kill monsters and save lives?)
While I don’t agree with you in relation to your least favourite flavour Winchester (there are many I find far more distasteful), I do agree with you in relation to a lot of the rest. The idea that in this season the brothers chose each other for the first time is crap. What constituted the mytharc, and how they got there, was, for me, contrived, nonsensical, poorly thought out and reeked of incompleteness. It’s possible that this will be rectified and the many events and issues that rose in season 8 will be dealt with in season 9 but I don’t have any great hope that they will. Carver threw so many things to the wall to find out what would stick in season 8 that I feel it will be very difficult for him to find the time or the opportunity to fix all that he broke. (And that includes, but is not limited to, the characters of Sam and Dean, Sam and Dean’s character and their ‘relationship; whatever that may be.) And why should he, what’s done is done.
@202. Leah, when Dean killed Benny he did it with the belief that Benny would travel back out of Purgatory with Sam, ‘When you get back up here, we’re going to fix all that’. (That’s not to say that he wouldn’t have taken the same course of action regardless but I feel it should be noted. Would Dean have looked for an alternative means of getting Sam (and Bobby, and their mission) back if he knew that Benny would not come back?) Dean might have believed that he would have killed Benny but on more than one occasion he indicated that he wouldn’t. It’s probable that Sam was working under the belief that he wouldn’t.
To be perfectly honest, keeping the words and actions of season 8 in mind, a good argument could be made that it is based on the series as a whole. However, in relation to [i]this[/i] season, I find it hard to believe that Dean trusts Sam. Whether that’s as a result of what happened in Purgatory, the mentality he brought back from Purgatory, because Sam made mistakes in the past, because he believes that Sam didn’t look for him, Sam being younger, Dean’s own trust and/or control issues; there are a myriad of possible reasons. I’ve no problem with the issue of Sam watching his back because when you consider who else Dean (and Sam) has had watching it in the past; Bobby, Castiel, Benny, Krissy, Benny, Jo, Rufus, Garth, Martin, Ruby etc, I don’t think true trust plays a huge role in it. Very often it seems that it’s better to hunt with anyone than to hunt alone.
In relation to being his partner, I would find this more palatable if being his partner meant he was considered his equal but I don’t feel that this is the case. As long as one person persists in doling out information to the other on a need to know basis, as long as he feels he doesn’t need to explain himself to his partner, as long as he expects what he says to be followed without question, then I can’t believe that’s a true partnership. Sorry. For me at the moment their partnership comes across as less of being two brothers on a common mission and more of something you’d see between a general and his soldier or a boss and his worker; Sam is considered worthy enough to hunt with but not worthy enough to be told the truth.
In this season in particular I feel that Dean did not listen to Sam or respect his contributions; quite the opposite. He openly scoffed at what Sam did in his ‘normal’ year. What Sam told him about his year off (including that he thought Dean was dead), he ignored in lieu of focusing on ‘the girl’ as being the reason that Sam didn’t look for him (and Sam specifically told Dean the girl had nothing to do with it) and making remarks about produce.
And no, the Ruby and Amy things were not conducive to trust but neither is keeping secrets, neither is not talking. Trust should be earned, not expected.
@203
It’s unfortunate, though perhaps fitting then, that Dean’s moral code doesn’t coincide with the family’s mission statement. Actually, considering the reason the Winchesters were hunting in season 8 it seems the new Winchester mission statement should be ‘Revenge on all those sons of bitches.’ Actually, it’s interesting that this (revenge) is the same reason that Benny wanted out of Purgatory.
Prix68, you said in your earlier post that Dean’s moral code was ‘loyalty’. May I ask, loyalty to whom?
In [i]Bloodlust[/i], it was not Sam who convinced Dean that all monsters were not the same; it was actually seeing Lenore turn down blood that convinced him. Sam told Dean they were different, but Dean didn’t believe him.
Finally, why would Benny quibble with Dean about killing Andrea (Andrea wanted to take over the position left by Benny’s maker), and why wouldn’t he save Castiel’s life in Purgatory? He needed Dean on side to get, and stay, topside.
I’ve looked for your arguments @102 and @103 and I couldn’t find them (@103 is actually my comment but if you want to agree with it then fab!).
Tim- Fair enough, Dean thought Benny was coming back, but I still contend that Dean bringing along the machete at the meet was a strong indication that he was willing to take him out. I think their friendship had the very strong condition attached that if you kill I will take you out! I don’t think Dean would have allowed that no matter how much he cared for Benny..
quote” And no, the Ruby and Amy things were not conducive to trust but neither is keeping secrets, either is not talking. Trust should be earned, not expected.” Couldn’t agree more. My point actually. Both brothers have contributed and they still have work to do on that score.
I have a hard time even buying the premise that Dean would have reacted so strongly to Sam not looking for him. But that’s just me. I realize that JC was trying to tear the relationship apart to bring it to the point it needed to be in the finale. It did no favors to the characters. Some will always be mad at Sam for not looking. Others will always think Dean has never forgiven Sam for anything ever, or has any trust in him. I am sure the ground that was gained in the relationship will ever erase the damage done in the earlier part of S8.
….will never erase the damage….
@207
[quote]I realize that JC was trying to tear the relationship apart to bring it to the point it needed to be in the finale. It did no favors to the characters. Some will always be mad at Sam for not looking. Others will always think Dean has never forgiven Sam for anything ever, or has any trust in him. I am sure the ground that was gained in the relationship will ever erase the damage done in the earlier part of S8.[/quote]
This I completely agree with. And it’s unfortunate because, for me, it was wholly unnecessary. There were a thousand ways they could have introduced conflict into the relationship if that was what Carver wanted. Why he chose to go down a road already travelled, and already resolved, is bewildering.
And no, it did no favours to either character. As much as I believe I can possibly, maybe, understand why Sam didn’t look for Dean, I feel there are a huge number of things in relation to Sam and his actions etc that need to be clarified and/or addressed. Ditto with Dean, And as much as Dean has the POV, I admit that I have never had as many questions about his motives, his actions and his words as I have this season. I thought POV was meant to give you clarity on a character. They’ve given me no clarity on Dean. However, perhaps in season 9!
On an aside, having just watched Metamosphosis, the similarities between the Benny/Martin/Elizabeth situation and the Jack/Travis/Michelle situation are startling!
Tim – Dean feels loyalty to friends and family who have stood by the Winchesters. Revenge is definitely part of the Winchester family mission and that would include John, Sam, and Bobby. That is pretty much every hunter’s mission. Maybe the problem here is I don’t consider Benny so much as Dean’s secret as his own personal business. Which is what he told Sam to begin with. I don’t think he planned on hanging out with Benny on a regular basis or going on hunts with him or inviting him home for dinner. He didn’t want to involve Sam because of his own ambiguous feelings toward the situation. Remember in “Southern Comfort” Dean himself says “and I have to ask myself, when am I not up for beheadings”. He made it clear in ep1 that he thought he and Benny should put some distance between themselves. He told Sam that if another hunter found Benny drinking human blood and killed him, no hard feelings. He just didn’t want to be the one to do it. Their bond was too strong. If Sam went to kill Benny, Dean would have had to back his play and that would have been hard for Dean, although he definitely would have. Sam kept the extent of his relationship with Amelia secret as well. He still hasn’t told Dean about Don and the real reason he was back at the cabin. He hasn’t been forthcoming about what happened when Dean first went to purgatory, although I have seen comments blaming Dean for that because Dean did not ask the right questions. Sam even said he didn’t think he owed Dean an explanation. Maybe that was his personal business. Sam never told Amelia about his past life, even though he had been with her for a year and he never told Jess. Sam keeps a lot to himself. Dean apparently told Benny a lot about Sam and that they were hunters. As I said in another post I don’t think Dean trusts anyone but himself. Dean has good instincts and he trusts his instincts. In the season finale Dean says he loves Sam above all others, not that he trusts him. Dean did the things he did in the hope of minimizing the damage and fallout. So, thanks for the discussion everyone. I enjoy and appreciate it but I need to get off the merry-go-round for awhile because I have forgotten what my original point was! Lol
@ #204 Tim:
[i]why do you feel that I am not giving an honest argument (and you evidently are)?[/i]
Honest question. From your previous post, I felt that you were using semantics as an opposing argument, overlooking vital parts of what was shown in the episode, and ignoring an awful lot of subtext. This post gives me a deeper understanding of where you are coming from. It is a perspective that is shared by half the fandom, I would imagine; but not me. I still think that things shown in the episode and a lot of subtext are being ignored – i.e., as I mentioned before, Martin’s first appearance in this episode suggesting he was still not 100%, progressing to Martin frantically stabbing ice cubes and; finally, his final breakdown when Sam dumped him.
[i]all Dean has is Benny’s word that another vampire is even there. This is what he brings back to Sam and Martin[/i]
Dean was not asking Sam or Martin to trust Benny. I don’t think that he especially did either. What Dean was asking of Sam and Martin; specifically of Sam, was that they investigate the case thoroughly before going off on a “witch hunt.†Dean is loyal to a fault, and he felt he owed Benny for helping him stay alive in Purgatory and for helping him get out. Their friendship did not just happen. They fought together side-by-side, 360 days and 360 degrees of terrible. Sam knew this. Sam knows his brother is loyal to family and friends. Sam’s response was to grant 120 minutes for Dean to satisfy himself. Dean went prepared to kill Benny if he needed to. IMO, both Dean and Benny knew at this point that if they had to go head-to-head, it would be a fight to the death for one of them.
The point is that after Benny gave Dean his story, Dean asked Benny to stand down and let him, Sam and Martin go check out this Desmond. This is what Sam (and Martin) were rejecting – that they go hunt for Desmond and, in doing so, would know for sure whether Benny was lying or telling the truth. That’s direct narrative in the episode.
Sam rejected this plan. Sam asks Dean if he is asking them to go on trust. Dean says yes and tells Sam his trust comes from Benny being the only one in his life that has not let him down (which is a true statement, even at the end of S8). Sam gets his feelings hurt, Martin KO’s Dean, and off Sam and Martin go to kill Benny. In other words, Sam knows there is a viable alternative to Benny being the killer, but he chooses not to investigate further. (I am reminded that this is the same Sam that stopped Dean in mid-kill from killing Sherry in Nightshifter when he asks Dean what is the value of the shapeshifter fainting.)
What you suggest is that the audience still does not know if Benny had killed at some point after he and Dean got out of Purgatory. That is a “what if and maybe,†not canon. What we do know for sure is that Benny would not join his lifetime love in killing humans again and he willingly let Dean kill her, and Benny was seen later in Taxi Driver still drinking blood bank blood. What would be the value of that if he were killing humans?
[i]Why is the second cliffhanger an isolated event ie why was it solely about Benny drinking from Martin, surely one could lead into the other ie was Martin just another of Benny’s victims, the one that Dean could not deny, not was Martin Benny’s first victim? Could the cliffhanger not have been the potential fallout to that?[/i]
This is the “what if and maybe†and a question that was answered. Benny did kill Martin (remember the speculation that it could have been Elizabeth), Benny did not drink Martin’s blood as it was pooled all over the floor; and in Taxi Driver, he was shown to still be drinking bagged blood.
[i]We also had Sam giving clues to the audience in Citizen Fang when he told Martin “sometimes it’s not easy to see things for what they are.â€
Why do you automatically assume that applies only to Sam? It could easily apply to Dean ie that Dean (and some of the viewers) are the ones for whom it is not easy to see things for what they are when it comes to Benny?[/i]
I do not think these clues were isolated to Sam. I think this was specifically written in as a statement to the audience about the entire season. As I recall: (a) there were a lot of interviews from TPTB stating that S8 was a season of perceptions (b) an awful lot of fans were wondering what Sam saw in Amelia and were speculating that there was something supernatural connected to the Amelia story. As it turned out, there wasn’t one thing that connected Sam’s “human†Amelia story to anything. Sam was parked with Amelia for the year Dean spent a year in Purgatory – a rinse and repeat story of Dean being parked with Lisa for the year Sam was off being soulless; and (c) that line ended and immediately went to a Samelia flashback.
(Cont’d in Part 2).
just gonna throw it out there, since this is the bitterness thread, I don’t really care about Benny. He was never that interesting. He seems superfluous. If he never came back …meh
I know I said I was getting off the merry-go-round so consider this a cheer from the stands. Excellent Ginger (#211) I agree.
Well Dean obviously feels he does have the right to tell Sam that Benny has never let him down and that is part of the reason Sam should see Benny the way he does and why he should trust him . The evidence in the killings were not so transparently clear that Benny was a innocent and that Sam was being unreasonable and Martin a mental patient fugitive .
I understand the way Benny was presented and that it was has safe as houses that he would be good and Dean right in his trust of him however Sam was not privy to conversations that Dean had with Benny nor privy to what we as a audience saw. His brother as underlined to Sam at will how his mis-placed trust in the wrong people in a Supernatural being hurt him and the cost of said trust. Benny might of been the pedestal Dean placed his trust on but as Sam simply stated I dont know him .
Part 2: @204 Tim:
(I don’t know what happened to my previous Part 2, which I posted, but I guess it didn’t take.)
We never got an answer to what Sam saw in a bitchy, heavy-drinking, and very married vet, but we did get an answer to whether Benny was a good friend to Dean or playing him.
[i]#205: I do agree with you in relation to a lot of the rest. The idea that in this season the brothers chose each other for the first time is crap. What constituted the mytharc, and how they got there, was, for me, contrived, nonsensical, poorly thought out and reeked of incompleteness. It’s possible that this will be rectified and the many events and issues that rose in season 8 will be dealt with in season 9 but I don’t have any great hope that they will. Carver threw so many things to the wall to find out what would stick in season 8 that I feel it will be very difficult for him to find the time or the opportunity to fix all that he broke. (And that includes, but is not limited to, the characters of Sam and Dean, Sam and Dean’s character and their ‘relationship; whatever that may be.) And why should he, what’s done is done.[/i]
100% with you on this. The spoilers coming out have really, really depressed me about S9. The most recent one from Carver dealing with the MoL sounds suspiciously like canon is already being trashed and the season hasn’t even started.
Hi Leah,
Just one tiny minor leeetle quibble with the following: maybe not even a quibble, more of a different perspective perhaps…..
“but I still contend that Dean bringing along the machete at the meet was a strong indication that he was willing to take him out. I think their friendship had the very strong condition attached that if you kill I will take you out! I don’t think Dean would have allowed that no matter how much he cared for Benny..”
I think that it’s true that Dean was prepared to kill Benny, having the machete and all, and he did warn Benny in the season opener to “keep his nose clean” with a strong “or else” implied in the warning. However, Dean made it pretty clear to Sam early in So Co that some other hunter may have to kill Benny one day, but it sure wasn’t going to be him. That is the only intel Sam had to go on during Blood Brothers, that Dean would never be moved to kill Benny no matter what. Dean may have shown US that he was reluctantly willing to kill Benny if it was necessary, but SAM didn’t know that and didn’t believe that he would. Much of what followed in the episode was due to Sam’s acting on this misinformation fed to him by Dean and it all could very easily have been cleared up had Dean been more forthcoming. If Dean had even said to Sam at any point during Blood Brothers; “Look, if it’s really Benny doing the killing, I’ll take care of it.” I think Sam would have been appeased and way more willing to let Dean handle things. Obviously Dean was in fact willing to deal with Benny if need be, so why couldn’t he have told Sam that?
It think the whole Blood Brother’s scenario with Benny underscores a serious flaw in the way the two characters are written, particularly Sam. All through season 8, especially at the start, we were privy to all of what Dean was going through with Benny. None of the phone calls or scenes between them happened off camera so we, the audience got to see what actually transpired between Dean and Benny AND we got to witness what Dean didn’t share with Sam. Then both we and Dean turn around a condemn Sam for acting on the only information that he had at the time giving him no quarter whatsoever for the fact that he’s been left largely in the dark. In turn, when it’s Sam’s turn to have things going on with him, we get nothing… no insight, no information at all to help us see his motivations, making all of Sam’s actions inexplicable, causing us and Dean in turn to condemn Sam because we don’t understand him. So, when there is conflict with Dean we side with Dean because we know everything he knows and his motivations are made clear. When there’s conflict on Sam’s side we side with Dean because Sam’s motivations are so murky that we can’t figure out what the hell he’s doing or why. This is one area that I dearly hope changes in season 9. Sacrifice finally, finally, finally gave Sam a shred of insight (a teeny, tiny, wee, glorious, little bit) and it’s been a long time in coming IMO; a looooong time, as in waaaay overdue! My dearest hope in season 9 is that this is shown to be the start of a trend rather than an isolated incident. Sam needs a voice, and we need the insight into his character. It is well past time.
[youtube]Dean was not asking Sam or Martin to trust Benny. I don’t think that he especially did either.[/youtube]
Ginger, Dean ABSOLUTELY was asking for Sam and Martin to go on trust. Here is the transcript of the scene:
DEAN
…… In fact, killing any human – it’s not his style.
MARTIN
Not his style? Not his style?
SAM
Listen, Dean, we came here on a dead body. You asked for some time, and now there’s another dead body. Are we just going on trust here?
MARTIN takes a sip of his drink and looks at DEAN.
DEAN
Yes.
That is absolutely Dean expecting Sam and Martin to trust Benny because he does, and while he might be able to expect Sam to go along with him (which Sam did) he has no right to expect that from Martin.
And I find it troubling that you would actually decide that another poster was being dishonest simply because you don’t agree with their interpretation of the supposed subtext that’s in all of these scenes. Last I checked this was all interpretation on our part, and as often happens people’s interpretations differ. That does not make them inherently dishonest just because it doesn’t jibe with yours.
Hi E, no problem at all. I happen to agree with your post. I wasn’t really taking a stance about who was right or wrong here. There was some right and a lot of wrong in those early episodes IMO. Loving both characters makes it very hard for me to point fingers. More insight into Sam is way past due and hopefully the finale will lead to more in S9!! 🙂
Hey Leah! Yeah, I was being nit-picky about a very small thing. I don’t actually disagree with you. 😆 I think that what has happened quite a bit in season 8 is that fans (and other characters) forgot that Sam was really in the dark about what Dean knew and what we as the audience knew. It’s different than what was going on in season 4; at that time Dean and the audience were both in the dark about what Sam was up to, leading to all of the suspicions and conflict. The drama was generated by Dean and by extension the audience slowly finding out what Sam was doing, and what the repercussions of his actions might be. This time the only one who DOESN’T know what’s going on is Sam; Dean, Benny, the audience and even Cas are all “in” on what is transpiring, and poor Sam is asking what’s going on, but getting no answers, which I felt made him the odd man out for much of the season. I think a lot of people forget that Sam was at best under-informed and at worst mis-informed which often made him look insensitive or needlessly antagonistic or contrary, when in fact he was really only reacting to what he understood to be happening. I mean, if nobody is willing to tell him anything, then they shouldn’t complain when he doesn’t react as expected, which is kind of what happened IMO. It’s not a story telling device that I appreciate very much, actually. I think that the final payoff to the season was very satisfying and I realize that it wouldn’t have been so without all the drama that came before, but it was just really hard to watch Sam’s character get bashed continually from all quarters (other characters and fans alike) simply because he was the only one out of the collective loop.
This is my wish for you E, next season. More Sam insight and angst, lots and lots of it. Agree on the former and always a little scared about the latter. 😀
[quote]
And I find it troubling that you would actually decide that another poster was being dishonest simply because you don’t agree with their interpretation of the supposed subtext that’s in all of these scenes. Last I checked this was all interpretation on our part, and as often happens people’s interpretations differ. That does not make them inherently dishonest just because it doesn’t jibe with yours.[/quote]
Hear, hear! E. I agree with you on this, thank you!
@ #217 E:
[i]Dean ABSOLUTELY was asking for Sam and Martin to go on trust. Here is the transcript of the scene:[/i]
But here is the beginning of that conversation, which clearly lays out Dean’s plan. Dean is asking Sam to go with him to further investigate the case. Sam is questioning why he should do that and asks if it is because Dean trusts Benny. Dean responds per your quote. Martin has no dog in this fight. It’s between Sam and Dean. Sam brought Martin in on the case, and Sam can at any time cut Martin loose – which he did – in the middle of a hunt in the middle of a vamp forest.
BENNY
…. It’s been tough walking the line here after all those years in Purgatory not having to deal with the hunger. But Elizabeth… She keeps me honest. I finally feel like I got a handle on this thing.
DEAN
Handle on things? Benny, you’ve got two stiffs on your hands and two hunters on your ass.
BENNY
Oh, please. The half-wit who found me at the café? I’ll take my chances with him.
DEAN
That half-wit was sent by my brother, and trust me – my brother’s not someone you want to mess with.
BENNY
I don’t have time to worry about them, Dean. I didn’t think Desmond had an ounce of steel in his spine, but I was wrong about that. So now I’m gonna do what I should have done two days ago, which is put him back where he belongs.
DEAN
You know there’s only one way to do that, right? And that is for you to sit on the sideline while I convince Sam and Martin to go after Desmond. They see you out there, they don’t care if you’re gonna be collecting for the March of Dimes. They are gonna slice first and ask questions later. You know that.
BENNY
You really think they’ll go for that?
And then later, when Dean gets out of the cuffs and calls Benny.
BENNY
What’d they say?
DEAN
They didn’t go for it. They’re on their way to you. I’d get scarce.
[i]And I find it troubling that you would actually decide that another poster was being dishonest simply because you don’t agree with their interpretation of the supposed subtext that’s in all of these scenes. Last I checked this was all interpretation on our part, and as often happens people’s interpretations differ. That does not make them inherently dishonest just because it doesn’t jibe with yours.[/i]
This is confrontational and adds nothing to the discussion; therefore, I won’t respond beyond saying that there is a very big difference between a dishonest argument and a dishonest person. I have in no way been confrontational or rude to anyone or their opinions. I expect the same courtesy, but if this is where we’re at, I’m off the merry-go-round, too.
Well, everyone else might have buggered while I was off sleeping in a different time zone but I paid for my ticket on this merry go round so I’m freaking well staying on it, even if I must play by myself! (Wheeeeee!!!!!!)
I think from your first paragraph, Ginger, I understand where our huge differences in opinion come from; semantics. Do I use them? Of course I do, everybody does. Without semantics, there would be no discussion because there would be no need for discussion because everyone would be expected to see the same thing, interpret it the same way, and have the same opinion on it. They would, essentially, be told what to think. However, as you later pointed out, this season was all about ‘perception’. Without semantics, there can be no perception. So based on that, Ginger, I didn’t ignore anything, I just didn’t see things the same way that you saw things and I interpreted the subtext presented differently to you (it’s called ‘subtext’ for good reason).
Do I think semantics are important? I think they’re vital. It’s essentially where debate comes from. SPN, as much as we like to criticise it, is literature. Might not always be particularly good literature but it [i]is[/i] literature and when you write literature you need to chose your words very carefully. When you have a very limited timescale (42 minutes), and a lot of story to tell, and a lot of characters to cater for you have to get the most out the limited time and limited words you have so you must chose words, phrases and scenarios that can be interpreted in a variety of ways. No right way, no wrong way, different for each viewer.
I word counted a few transcripts of SPN and on average, including stage directions and character names etc, each episode of SPN has approx 6,200 words in it. I’ve seen comments here, hell I’ve [i]written[/i] comments here that were longer than that. You could type 6,200 words in about two hours at your ease, but writers take days to write those 6,200 words so they obviously take great care in the words they pick to make those words as fruitful and as loaded as possible. Therefore, what the characters say have to mean more than one thing.
In relation to Martin; in his first appearance in the episode he was sitting the cafe watching Benny. We later saw him come out from the side of the cafe and follow him. He heard a scream, pulled a knife and ran toward the path (that Benny has just turned down) before falling over the dead body. What about that suggests that Martin was not 100%? In relation to his stabbing of the ice, apart from the fact that if you stab ice slowly you won’t get it out (I’ve yet to see someone get an ice cube out of an ice tray by lovingly caressing it!), how does how Martin treated the ice prove that he wasn’t 100%? His ‘final breakdown’ consisted of doing something that various other hunters (Sam, Dean, Travis, Tim, Reggie, Steve etc) have all done in the past; used a friend, acquaintance or loved one as bait to lure in a monster.
Now it is possible that Martin was indeed cuckoo for coco pops but it’s also possible he was not. Nothing shown on screen confirmed that because everything Martin did could be easily explained. I’m not the kid of person who is going to assume that Martin was, as another poster described him ‘loopy’ because some people have said that he’s wasn’t acting right, and have a vested interest in him not being 100%. I’m not so self-important that I feel I can dictate what is the right and wrong way for a person to act in a particular situation and then make an assessment on their character and credibility based on that.
[quote]Dean was not asking Sam or Martin to trust Benny. I don’t think that he especially did either. …..[/quote] Dean was asking Sam and Martin to trust Benny. Sam stated it in 8.10. ‘You didn’t want me to trust you. You wanted me to trust Benny.’ Dean told Sam he needed time, Sam ‘granted’ Dean what Dean asked for, a couple of hours. (It seems it was Dean who decided that 120 minutes was enough. Maybe he should have taken more time, gotten more convincing evidence?) Why would he have done that if he was on a ‘witch hunt’?
cont.
(On an aside, can I just say that this “Sam’s response was to grant 120 minutes for Dean to satisfy himself†is the best freaking example of a loaded comment I’ve seen in a long time. Your choice of verb is brilliant because it creates the impression of Sam some being some dictatorial, tyrannical overlord who Dean, in an almost Oliver Twist like way, has to go to in order to plead for permission before he does something. And your decision to break down the time Dean took to 120 minutes was damn good because it makes the time seem almost pithy. It almost gives off a vibe of the Stalin Show Trials whereby Sam was only ‘granting’ Dean this time to make it look like he was doing the right thing but in reality he had his mind made up. I’m totally going to use this phrase in the future!)
Dean was to sell what Benny told him to Sam and Martin. Perhaps he didn’t do a very good job of it? (Perhaps he himself didn’t really ‘buy it’? He certainly wasn’t surprised when Sam and Martin didn’t.) It’s interesting, all of Dean’s talk in that scene was in relation to defending Benny. We didn’t see him mention or push the idea of the other vampire at all. (I don’t doubt that he did I just find it strange that when he was trying to convince Sam and Martin about what Benny said, the ‘viable alternative’ wasn’t even mentioned. I also find it strange that Benny was adamant that he go with Dean to find Desmond. Was the fight that personal, did he want to protect Dean from Desmond or did he want to make sure that Desmond didn’t talk to Dean?)
[quote]
Sam rejected this plan……… (I am reminded that this is the same Sam that stopped Dean in mid-kill from killing Sherry in Nightshifter when he asks Dean what is the value of the shapeshifter fainting.) [/quote]Perhaps he ‘rejected’ the plan because (a) there was the possibility that another victim would die while Benny sent them on what might be a wild goose chase so that he could save his own ass and get out of town (Hmmm, could this have been Dean’s idea of ‘taking care of it’?) and (b) Dean, by hauling out the ‘He’s the only one who has let me down card’ brought about the idea that he was doing this to save Benny’s ass. Sam seemed to be on board with what Dean was saying before that.
And Sam is not the same Sam that he was back in Nightshifter, 6 seasons and umpteen years ago. He’s not as naive as he was then. He’s a lot more cynical now, he’s learned the hard way, and Dean taught him, that he had to be.
Actually Ginger, you’ve used two very interesting phrases in that paragraph “Dean is loyal to a fault†and “both Dean and Benny knew at this point that if they had to go head-to-head, it would be a fight to the death for one of them.†Might the ‘fault’ be that Dean is so blinded by his loyalty that he cannot see (or refuses to see) what might be right in front of his eyes? In relation to ‘fight to the death’, do you think it possible that Benny would lie to avoid being in this ‘fight to the death’? Might it be possible that Dean also wants to avoid a fight to the death and so runs with whatever reason Benny gives him? I mean, I doubt either Dean or Benny would be anxious to go head to head in a fight that would lead to one of their deaths so I wonder how far they would go (consciously or subconsciously) to avoid it?
[quote]…… What would be the value of that if he were killing humans?[/quote] Just out of interest, how long do you think Dean would have let Benny live if he had rejoined his ‘love’? With all due respect, Benny isn’t exactly Edward Cullen. And of course it’s ‘what if and maybe’. Everything you and I are saying is based on ‘what if and maybe’ Again, perception!
[quote]Benny did kill ……..[/quote]
Do we know that he didn’t drink Martin’s blood because I can’t remember Elizabeth confirming it? There was blood around the body but if Benny did drink from him then I don’t think he’d have taken the time to lick the floor clean afterwards; especially not with Elizabeth there and there was a chance that Dean and/or Sam would be in the door after him. And surely if he ripped Martin’s throat out he’d end up (intentionally or otherwise) drinking some blood. However, as you stated, Benny did kill Martin. (And did Dean not say that if Benny starts killing then he’s fair game or something like that?)
Thing is, as a vampire Benny was a lot bigger, stronger, faster and more skilled than Martin. Purgatory made him an excellent fighter. He obviously didn’t think a lot of Martin (referring to him as a ‘half-wit’) so I can’t help but wonder if killing Martin was absolutely necessary. Why not disarm or disable him? That would have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Benny was [i]not[/i] a killer, if this was indeed the shows intent. Why so much ambiguity? Ah yes, perception.
cont. (Man, I miss the 10,000 character limit!)
[quote]I do not think these clues were isolated to Sam. I think this was specifically written in as a statement to the audience about the entire season….. that line ended and immediately went to a Samelia flashback. [/quote] Wouldn’t the entire season include Benny? Fans were wondering about more than just Amelia, they were also wondering about Benny and Purgatory. And a lot of things kicked off Sam’s flashbacks. Didn’t Castiel talking about bladder infection kick off one? Should we take that as a sign that Sam had a bladder infection? (Hmm, might explain the loss of body mass with Sam this season and maybe explain how he was changing on a subatomic level. Oh, those UTI’s are a curse!)
[quote]We never got an answer to what Sam saw in a bitchy, heavy-drinking, and very married vet, but we did get an answer to whether Benny was a good friend to Dean or playing him.[/quote] Ginger, are you ‘overlooking vital parts of what was shown in episodes, and ignoring an awful lot of subtext’?? (I kid, I kid!) Amelia’s story was explored. You might not have been a fan of it or her but it [i]was[/i] explored and we did get a lot of insight into her and her relationship with Sam. Amelia believed, as did her father, that her husband was dead. (If she didn’t then why did she receive a phone call telling her that her husband was alive?) It’s possible this is why she was drinking. (Dean also hit the hard stuff when things got tough.) To escape people talking about her and feeling sorry for her etc she moved away from all she knew. The fact that she lived in a motel shows how unsettled she was. Sam could relate because he did similar. And to be honest, I don’t find her bitchy in the slightest. I liked her (oooh, that dreaded perception again!) I thought she was quite similar to Dean. She teased Sam, made fun of his hair and his clothes but underneath the brash exterior was something more, something fragile. Something Sam could empathise with, someone he could help and someone who could help him. Their relationship might not have been based on bras and boxers flying off then every time they laid eyes on each other but it should be considered no less valid because of that. They gave each other comfort, a listening ear, and strength. Something they both needed. So I guess we did get an answer as to what Sam saw in her.
@210 Prix68, I’m not sure if you’re here or gone so I’ll reply anyway. You can take this as my goodbye wave if that is the case!
I’d always have thought that Sam and Dean’s moral compass was trying to do the right thing. However, if Dean’s moral compass is just loyalty to his friends and family, then it is very subjective and very conditional as he has oft times not shown loyalty to family and friends (keeping secrets, breaking trust etc) in lieu of doing what he thought was right. His loyalty to Benny is also subjective given that, as per your statement, he’d have no problem with another hunter killing Benny if he was found drinking human blood. And I gotta say, Dean’s loyalty as a moral compass is also in question if he simply planned on cutting off contact with Benny (not hanging out on a regular basis, going on hunts, inviting him home for dinner etc) as soon as he got back topside. It means that Dean left a vampire who had spent years killing in Purgatory alone in the big bad world. That’s potentially bad for Benny and the greater population.
It also makes how Dean reacted to Sam not trusting Benny harder to understand if he himself has ‘ambiguous’ feelings towards Benny. Do you feel it is okay for Dean, who knows Benny, to have these feelings but not Sam, who doesn’t? And in truth, Prix68, I’d hate to have been Sam if he tried pulling that ‘personal business’ answer with Dean. Imagine how Dean would react to hearing something along the lines of ‘Well Dean, the fact that I’m sleeping with a demon, drinking their blood, can kill demons with my mind and have been doing so for some time now is my own personal business and nothing to do with you so no, I won’t tell you about it’. Jeez, Sam would still be trying to align his jaw four and a half seasons later!
And unfortunately, prix68, Dean’s personal business was no longer ‘personal business’ from the moment he left the hunt to go to Benny and later called Sam in on that hunt. Even after that, he told Sam next to nothing about Benny. And if Dean did, as you say, tell Benny all about Sam then he has put Sam in a very dangerous situation. I mean, according to you, he doesn’t trust Benny yet he tells him all about his brother!
No, Sam was not forthcoming about his year with Amelia. I can kinda understand why when what he did say was met with scorn. However, he did tell Dean that he thought he was dead ‘Nothing says family quite like the whole family being dead’. He also told Dean that ‘the girl had nothing to do with it’ but Dean had already fixated on, and continued to fixate on the girl even after Sam told him this. Is it less of a case that Dean didn’t ask the right questions and more of a case of Dean had already decided on the answers? And Prix68, despite Sam keeping the extent of his relationship with Amelia secret, Dean knew enough about her to know to how to use her to best effect. Where do you think he learned that from? (And [i]we[/i] don’t know the real reason why Sam went back to the cabin, so it’s no wonder Dean doesn’t. Though I find it hard to think why Dean would be interested in why Sam would be at a cabin. I mean, he had to live somewhere so why not there?)
However, you could be right in relation to Dean only trusting himself. If that is the case then perhaps Dean [i]would[/i] be better off hunting on his own because the people he hunts with deserve better than to not be trusted after showing they are willing to give their lives for him. If what you say is true then, perhaps in season 9 Sam will realise the futility of doing all that he can to earn the trust of a man who doesn’t want to give it? And in truth, if Dean doesn’t trust the man who fought by his side for years on end, was willing to give his life for him, took on hell for him etc, then maybe the question should be asked as to whether or not Dean’s trust is actually worth having.
In relation to your final point, I really hope that you’re not referring to the scene in [i]Sacrifice[/i] when you talk about minimizing damage and fallout (though perhaps you are because you mentioned the finale). If you are and what you say is true then if Sam finds out it really should be the final nail in the coffin of their fragile relationship because it would mean that there was no truth or sincerity in Dean’s speech. It was all just pure manipulation to get the result that he himself wanted.
Tim, Tim, Tim – you have misunderstood what I have said so I will try to explain even though I’m not sure I can. First I didn’t say loyalty was Dean’s whole moral code, just the one most in play where Benny was concerned. Second, he indicated he would be available if Benny needed help with a problem but they weren’t going to be hanging out together as friends. Dean made it clear to Benny that his first obligation was as a hunter and Benny was a vampire who might or might not stay on the straight and narrow. Dean tried to explain to Sam that if Benny went off the rails and another hunter killed him fine but he PREFERED it not be him but if Sam hunts Benny then of course that would involve Dean. Sam did involve Dean though and Martin and Dean did indeed take a machete to his meeting with Benny. I do believe that he intended to kill Benny (or at least try) if he believed Benny was killing people. What Dean didn’t want was to put Sam in jeopardy because of a decision he made. Before you jump on the “Dean was putting other people in jeopardy bandwagon”, so was the decision by both Sam and Dean to let other monsters go. Like it or not, Benny was a highly skilled fighter with 50 years in the trenches and Sam had only been back to hunting a few months after a year long break As far as Dean leaving the hunt for Kevin, as a bad thing , well, as Dean pointed out the hunt was stalled and he was only going to be gone a day or two and Sam could do research.
As far as the trust issue goes. I stand by my feelings that when it comes to charting a course of action Dean trusts himself and his instincts foremost and maybe only. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t trust other people in other areas of his life, such as having his back in a hunt. He absolutely does trust others to have his back.
In my final point I was speaking of minimizing fallout and damage in “Blood Brothers”. As for Sam and Dean’s relationship ever being over well, just isn’t going to happen, since that is the basis of the whole show and TPTB would be entirely stupid to even end the show that way.
I think Dean assumed Sam was living at the cabin and that’s why he was waiting there but Sam was only back there because things went south with Amelia. I don’t think Sam was expecting Dean to be there and I think Dean assumed Sam was still hunting and using the cabin as base camp.
As far as telling Benny about Sam. I meant Dean told him how much his brother meant to him and that he was a great hunter. Not leaking military secrets telling. Somehow I think you know that, though.
As far as personal business goes, I think it would be healthy if both brothers could have some personal space and maybe even stay in separate motel rooms sometimes. They are 30 and 35 after all. Everyone can use some alone time. IMO.
Hope I have answered your questions. I will still read comments, I just don’t want to keep being part of the discussion because I feel I am just repeating myself.
Just a random thought. I find it kind of interesting that some posters think that Dean wouldn’t have been able to bring himself to kill Benny if he reverted back (which I disagreed with) but the idea that Dean would hunt down Sam and kill him if he somehow went darkside seems plausible to some. I don’t get, it but oh well.
I agree with you leah. It’s hard to fathom. I really begin to wonder sometimes what show some people are watching? Especially after the finale… did we or did we not see Sam willing to go to the ends of the earth for Dean and Dean stating categorically that Sam has always been no. 1 with him? Benny was a good friend to Dean, but he’s not Sam.
Maybe because Sam can cause destruction on a global scale? But then Dean would surely kill himself and that would be the end of the series. So we can’t have that!
@228 I do apologise if I misunderstood you, Prix68. I didn’t think I had, to be honest, I just didn’t agree with you but if you say I did. In fairness, all I had to go on were the words that you wrote. Ah well. So:
Dean felt loyalty towards Benny, but he didn’t trust him. I wonder then if (maybe subconsciously) Dean believed that Benny was innocent based on the loyalty he felt toward him, not because of any evidence.
If Dean’s first obligation was as a hunter (and not loyalty to friends, family etc) then this goes directly against what he did with Benny. (Let a vampire who might or might not stay on the straight and narrow walk away.) I think it’s more of a case that Dean’s moral code changes, as does all of ours, dependent on the situation. That’s what the evolution of Dean has been about, that he’s not just black and white. And I must say, Prix68, I’d like to think that if things went wrong Dean’d be honourable enough to sort it out himself. He wouldn’t just leave the mess for someone else to clean up.
Sam is a highly skilled fighter who had a lot of experience dealing with vampires. Dean is equally so but was still younger and less inexperienced than Benny. He’d also been in Purgatory a fraction of the time that Benny had. If Dean did intend to kill Benny (if needs be) then I’m wondering why he didn’t bring backup (like his brother). Unless he thought that he’d be able to take out Benny but Sam wouldn’t. (And if that’s the case then how can he trust Sam to have his back at all?)
Dean trusts people in some ways, just not in other ways? I wouldn’t classify that as trust but maybe you do. I wonder if he’d be happy if that’s how his partners considered him. I don’t think he would, considering he expects full disclosure from them, especially on things that might affect him or the hunt. And yes, Dean’s instincts are good. Unfortunately, the problems arise when Dean decides that his instincts supersede the instincts of his partners.
I can’t see why TPTB [i]wouldn’t[/i] go in that direction (the brothers separate). I mean, if there’s only partial trust and there’s constant conflict then perhaps the natural conclusion is that when the show ends we have Sam and Dean going their separate ways. That would certainly be different, unexpected yet normal.
Re what happened between Sam and Amelia: Dean knew there was a girl and then there wasn’t (this was one of the first things Sam said) so he knew what happened with the relationship.
Prix68, you’re the one who said ‘Dean apparently told Benny a lot about Sam’. There’s a lot to tell about Sam, and included in this is the demon blood, Lucifer etc. They did have a lot of time together in Purgatory so I’m assuming Sam came up a lot. If ([i]if[/i]) he did talk to Benny about Sam then I think it was more than ‘I have a brother. His name is Sam and he is a great hunter. He’s very special to me’. That being said, I don’t think that Dean would be so freaking stupid as to tell a vampire (that as per you, he doesn’t even trust) any significant details beyond, he has a brother. He’s too much of a tactician for that. And no Prix68, contrary to what you believe, I didn’t know that, because you didn’t write that. With all due respect, I’m not a mind reader.
And yes, it’s perhaps time for this discussion to come to a head because at this stage I don’t know if I’m meant to be replying to the words you wrote or what I am meant to think (know) you wrote.
@232 – Not looking for an apology or needing one. If I am not making myself clear to you, then the fault is mine, not yours. You are exactly right, all you have to go on are my words and I on yours. I am fairly new to commenting on web sites and the WFB is the only one I do comment on. Quite frankly, SPN is the only show I am interested enough in to read or comment on. My only worry about continuing our discussion is that I will bore, annoy, or offend others who are not interested in this discussion any longer, including you. I’m not sure of the etiquette in these situations.
Trust is not an all or nothing proposition, IMO, unless you are speaking of blind trust. I might trust someone’s judgement in one area and not in another. That doesn’t make them or me bad. I don’t think Sam always trusts Dean’s judgement all of the time either. Dean trusted Benny (had a firm belief in his ability) to try to stay clean but knew it would be difficult for Benny. Because of his loyalty ( strong feelings of allegiance) he wanted to give Benny the chance. Sam had threatened that he might just be the one who killed Benny and Dean trusted that Sam meant what he said. Dean was, IMO, trying (right or wrong) to avoid a show down between Sam and Benny.
Dean did not bring backup when he went to talk to Benny because he felt it was his responsibility to clean up the mess, if possible, without putting others in jeopardy. He made the decision to trust Benny and if he was wrong he needed to try to correct his mistake.
I didn’t say Dean told Benny a lot about Sam, Benny did in “Blood Brothers” when he shook hands with Sam. That is a stated fact, not my opinion. I’m not sure what was told, but I would hope Dean didn’t give away State secrets but I’m guessing it was more then “I have a brother”. Pure speculation on my part.
I would hate to see the show end with the brothers going their separate ways but that is not in my hands. There has always been conflict and trust issues on the show. That is what keeps it interesting IMO. It ends how it ends and that is a discussion for another day.
Hope you took this as the friendly discussion I mean it to be and of course my attempt (however unsuccessful) at trying to persuade you more to my point of view.
No, trust is not, and should not be an all or nothing thing. However, neither can it be conditional, nor something that changes with the wind; dependent on the situation and the person involved.
And no, Sam doesn’t trust Dean’s judgment all the time, but should he? There has been volumes written about why Dean should not trust Sam (based on past actions) but the question has rarely been asked as to whether Sam should trust Dean (who has done similar) Take Benny; should Sam have just trusted Dean when he said to trust Benny? Sam constantly asks questions, not in a nosy way but more in a, he needs to know why he’s doing it and be able to justify it, kind of way. He has never had a problem doing what someone tells him, if he believes in why he’s doing it. I doubt Sam would have had a problem with Benny if Dean told him something, anything about him and/or Purgatory. However, what Dean gave to Sam was ‘He’s also the reason I’m topside and not roasting on a spit in Purgatory’. When Sam looked for more details, Dean cut him off by turning the focus onto Sam and his ‘failings’. However, when Dean chooses to not tell him, and ignores Sam when he asks, then the logical question Sam has to ask is ‘Well, what is Dean hiding? If there was nothing wrong then why doesn’t he tell me something?’ Dean, by just telling Sam what to do with no explanation and no discussion, turned himself into John (and I like John, so that’s not an insult), and Sam and John have always butted heads for precisely that reason.
Looking at what we saw in Purgatory, it was very much a situation where Dean gave the orders to Benny and Castiel, and they jumped to it, no questions asked “Listen to me, you undead blood junkie, I’m the one with the mojo. I’m the one with the planâ€. Perhaps this is what he expected when he got back from Purgatory, so what he said and did was an attempt to get Sam into that line (as it were)?
Yes, I’m aware that Dean was trying to avoid a showdown between Sam and Benny, the question is why. Dean is not so dumb as to think that Sam and Benny would go the rest of their lives without their paths crossing, especially after 8.05. He’s also not so delusional as to think that Sam will just drop it on his say so. So why did he persist in secrecy? When Dean found about Ruby, Sam told all. Why didn’t Dean do likewise? Who exactly was it that he didn’t trust, and who was it that he was trying to protect (himself, Sam or Benny), why do they need to be protected and from what/whom. This hasn’t been addressed as yet, it might never be addressed but it played a key role in the events of the season so perhaps it (hell, perhaps the entire Purgatory storyline) should have been given a bit more consideration because not expecting Sam to ask questions is one thing, but not expecting the audience to ask questions is another.
I’m aware that Benny said ‘Heard a lot about you’. I didn’t think you were making it up. Same issue (and question) remains, though. Dean (though maybe it was Castiel or some other monster Sam knew) told Benny a lot about Sam yet told Sam noting about Benny; why?
Personally, and definitely after season 8, I’d be more than ok with Sam and Dean going their separate ways when the show ends. For me, the brothers bond has changed to such an extent that I barely see them as brothers any more. They’ve now got the kind of relationship that Eminem would shy away from writing songs about. They’ve ‘matured’ to secrets, lies, false words, false promises, deception, manipulation, not listening, cutting words, desperation and a willingness to talk only when one of them is supernaturally influenced or on deaths door (and even that talk was cut off when it became too hard for the other to listen to). And what’s worrying, is that this is par for the course for them. I’d rather they not see out their days facing more of that. And, for me, as it stands at the moment, the words they spoke at the end of season 8 will be fairly meaningless until such time as they address the events that happened, the actions they took and they words they spoke in season 8 that led the other to feel as they do. If that doesn’t happen then, realistically, we’ll see similar situations and similar reassurances in the future.
Re: changing minds (mine, yours or others); Jeez, I don’t even bother trying changing people’s mind because I know the likelihood of it happening! In relation to anyone getting bored, annoyed, or offended by comments; I don’t think anyone is compelled to read every comment on the site. If they want to read it, fair enough and if they don’t, then that is why God made the scroll down button! No harm, no foul either way.
I’ve been catching some of the earlier shows (S1,2,3) recently on TNT and I was struck by how in the beginning the brothers had their differences but tended to argue them out more quickly and completely. They said how they felt and why. Even Dean making the crossroads deal was only kept secret for that episode and they both expressed how they felt about it to each other. Then along came S4 (which is oddly one of my favorites) and things started to go sideways. Bigger secrets, that were kept longer. Along with the angel, apocalypse storyline we saw the brothers loose faith and trust in themselves and each other and the following seasons just seemed to keep building on that. In an odd way, it’s as if TPTB took what made for interesting drama in small doses and slammed us with it until we are hardly able to recognize the two characters we loved so much. I really don’t see any real reason that Dean had to keep Benny a secret from Sam in the beginning. If he had explained about the portal and the comrade in arms feelings that purgatory brought on I think Sam could have understood that easily. I don’t see why Sam couldn’t explain to Dean why he didn’t look for him in a more fleshed out way. Why couldn’t he say that I wasn’t looking for you long before “the girl” because…..whatever happened before he hit the dog.
My point is TPTB keep revisiting this lies and secrets storyline and then have the brothers come together in a big dramatic moment, which now has started to feel contrived, to me at least. I literally cringed when I heard that Dean is going to be keeping a secret right from the get go in episode 1. I hate the whole idea of more secrets.
So, I don’t want the brothers to separate at the end of the show, I want TPTB to fix what they have broken. Clean up their mess. I like Robbie Thompson’s episodes because they have a feel more like earlier episodes. At least I feel like we have one writer who still gets the brother’s relationship. They argued about things in “Pac-Man Fever” but they worked together and solved the case and came together in the end in a positive way. IMO.
Let’s hope that TPTB figure out that what most of us loved about the show was the brother’s love, trust, loyalty and faith in each other against all odds and not big bro moments at the end of gut wrenching lies, secrets and deceits.
Well, that rant felt good and you’re right people can just scroll down if they don’t like it. Thanks for the discussion.
[quote]
Let’s hope that TPTB figure out that what most of us loved about the show was the brother’s love, trust, loyalty and faith in each other against all odds and not big bro moments at the end of gut wrenching lies, secrets and deceits.
[/quote]
100,000% agree with this. Unfortunately, it doesn’t sound like they’ve got it figured out yet, and they’ve got a lot of work to do to repair what they did to the guys in season 8.
I do NOT want to see the guys split up ever again, even if it seems like that would be the healthiest thing for both of them to do.
I keep hearing about how this season was supposed to repair the damage done in previous seasons. IMHO, though at times the boys may have been distant and angry in previous seasons, they were still “in it together” whenever push came to shove. The beginning of season 8 simply tore them apart. Any re-connecting they accomplished at the end is still rather fragile, and unfinished. (Again, my opinion)
Talk of secrets held, immediately after the scene in the church, is not exactly what I want to hear.
[quote][quote]
Let’s hope that TPTB figure out that what most of us loved about the show was the brother’s love, trust, loyalty and faith in each other against all odds and not big bro moments at the end of gut wrenching lies, secrets and deceits.
[/quote]
100,000% agree with this. Unfortunately, it doesn’t sound like they’ve got it figured out yet, and they’ve got a lot of work to do to repair what they did to the guys in season 8.
I do NOT want to see the guys split up ever again, even if it seems like that would be the healthiest thing for both of them to do.
I keep hearing about how this season was supposed to repair the damage done in previous seasons. IMHO, though at times the boys may have been distant and angry in previous seasons, they were still “in it together” whenever push came to shove. The beginning of season 8 simply tore them apart. Any re-connecting they accomplished at the end is still rather fragile, and unfinished. (Again, my opinion)
Talk of secrets held, immediately after the scene in the church, is not exactly what I want to hear.[/quote]
I also agree with st50’s 100,000% agreement with you Prix68! That’s a whole lotta agreement 😆
Thanks, st50 and leah unlogged. If I can just get Tim the Enchanter to agree with me on at least this much I will be a happy camper. Lol. What say you Tim?
Didn’t Sam keep his visions a secret for several episodes in S1(John was keeping secrets too,,,,hmm I wonder where the boys learned how to keep secrets) and Dean kept Johns secret from Sam for 10 episodes in S2 and kept his hell experience from Sam for several episodes in S4. Then of course the db secret for Sam. It’s true that they were resolved more quickly once they were aired (until S4). The secrets have been going on for the whole series. Granted they got more intense as the series went on but isn’t it part of the fabric of the show? Even the J’s have stated that the show would be pretty boring if the brothers got along all the time.
There were always secrets and John was the worst about it but there seemed to be better or should I say more plausible reasons for why the brothers kept them. Sam didn’t mention his visions at first because he wasn’t sure himself exactly what they meant. Of course Dean didn’t want to tell Sam that he broke in hell and then tortured and Sam knew Dean wasn’t going to like him hooking up with Ruby. The difference was when they were outright asked by the other brother if they were keeping a secret and why, they were pretty forthcoming with an explanation and reason. Within a couple episodes. My feeling is there was no reason for Dean keeping Benny a secret or the portal for that matter, right from the get go. There wasn’t any valid reason for Sam not to give more detail about what happened right after Dean disappeared. What could he say that was worse then he didn’t bother to look at all. Secrets and lies for a reason, okay, but just for the sake of drama. Doesn’t work for me. The reasons behind the drama are what made the show so unique in a lot of ways to me. Now they seem more contrived. Just my feelings. A piece of cake is great, eat a whole cake and you’re sick. A secret here and there for valid reasons great, nothing but lies and secrets I’m sick of it. So I wish the TPTB would move on from this. I stress this is what I would personnally like.
I agree that there should have been a better (or some) explanation for Dean keeping Benny a secret since we know that Sam is sympathetic to monsters. That was a little contrived. However I think that Sam was going to tell Dean about Amelia but he got shut down by Dean and his own feeling of guilt. After all how would Sam feel knowing that Dean wasn’t resting peacefully in heaven but suffering in purgatory? And Dean was understandably angry that in his mind Sam just walked away again. That was for me a bit more understandable drama that set up the scene in the church. And really they weren’t secrets for very long. For most of the season they were on the same page. I don’t like contrived conflict either so I hope in S9 the conflicts are more plausible.
The idea of lies doesn’t hugely bother me in the context of the show (though the length of time that passes between grand words and then more lies is getting farcical at this stage). We’ve seen lies since day one. Hell, we saw lies pre-series with John and Dean keeping the truth about what was really out there from Sam. Mary lied to John all through their relationship and (unless she was made to forget she was ever a hunter via the memory wipe in [i]The Song Remains the Same[/i]) their marriage. John’s father also dealt in deception. However, for me, in order for things to work, the lies need to be addressed and dealt with, not shoved on the back burner and forgotten about because something else happened. Lies can add to a story, once it comes to some sort of resolution, whether within the characters themselves or for the storyline.
Yeah, I’m usually the only one who ever wants that (the show ending with them not together), though I’ve wanted that ending for a while now, so it’s not just because of my issues with the brothers and their relationship (fraternal and working) in season 8. I think I did mention when the show ends so there is (hopefully) time for the relationship to be fixed (or whatever constitutes being ‘fixed’ for Sam and Dean). Like I said, I don’t particularly want them to go through the rest of their lives where secrets, lies, deception, manipulation is the norm and truth and honest are taboo, because that is what lessens their relationship. However, I [i]don’t[/i] think the relationship would be any lesser if, in the final scene of the final episode, the brothers went their separate ways (ie one on to college, the other staying in the family business). I think there would be a nice symmetry to that. That’s not to say they wouldn’t stay in regular contact etc. In fact it’d be rather like the relationship would have been pre-series when Sam was at Stanford and Dean was off doing the monsters of the week hunts, if you took out the secrets, lies, resentments and ultimatum. These seemed to be the kind of hunts that Dean enjoyed, not the huge world ending ones.
I do think it’s a possibility. SPN has never really done the prefect happily ever after thing; the endings are usually kind of bittersweet. Season 8 reintroduced the idea again so it can’t be that far from the mind of the showrunner. We saw Sam was contacting colleges and that he [i]can[/i] live the normal life. Dean seems to want Sam to have it (this season, who knows about next season) so I can’t see why not. Sam has always found himself more directly affected by the supernatural (I’m not saying that Dean wasn’t. However, he was more affected as a result of the supernatural ie Mary, but via the blood, trials, visions etc Sam was more affected by the supernatural itself) than Dean so surely, if Dean wants him to be safe the best way for him to be safe would be not hunting. (Which is why I can’t understand why was Dean so dismissive of Sam wanting normal in season 8, when normal is evidently what Dean wants for Sam? Does he just not want Sam having normal when it’s on Sam’s terms but he wants him to have normal if it’s on Dean’s terms ie Dean wants to die for Sam to have normal? Perhaps the end of season 10 will see Dean doing what Sam wanted to do at the end of season 8, giving himself up to put that which most affected him back where they belong, and thus give Sam a life outside of hunting.)
Tim that is the problem I had with S8. The characterization of Dean. First he is giving Sam all kinds of hell for wanting a normal life then with no explanation his happy ending is Sam having a normal life. Maybe the MOL opened Deans eyes and finally he saw that he and Sam don’t have the same goals. Or maybe he saw that Sam could stay in the business but not be in constant danger. Again a sl not very well fleshed out. I would like their to be a happy ending for the show. Something like Sam and Dean sitting in the Impala, Sam says vampires or zombies, they turn left, end credits, on to the movie. 🙂
[quote]I’ve been catching some of the earlier shows (S1,2,3) recently on TNT and I was struck by how in the beginning the brothers had their differences but tended to argue them out more quickly and completely. They said how they felt and why. Even Dean making the crossroads deal was only kept secret for that episode and they both expressed how they felt about it to each other. Then along came S4 (which is oddly one of my favorites) and things started to go sideways. Bigger secrets, that were kept longer. Along with the angel, apocalypse storyline we saw the brothers loose faith and trust in themselves and each other and the following seasons just seemed to keep building on that. In an odd way, it’s as if TPTB took what made for interesting drama in small doses and slammed us with it until we are hardly able to recognize the two characters we loved so much. I really don’t see any real reason that Dean had to keep Benny a secret from Sam in the beginning. If he had explained about the portal and the comrade in arms feelings that purgatory brought on I think Sam could have understood that easily. I don’t see why Sam couldn’t explain to Dean why he didn’t look for him in a more fleshed out way. Why couldn’t he say that I wasn’t looking for you long before “the girl” because…..whatever happened before he hit the dog.
My point is TPTB keep revisiting this lies and secrets storyline and then have the brothers come together in a big dramatic moment, which now has started to feel contrived, to me at least. I literally cringed when I heard that Dean is going to be keeping a secret right from the get go in episode 1. I hate the whole idea of more secrets.
So, I don’t want the brothers to separate at the end of the show, I want TPTB to fix what they have broken. Clean up their mess. I like Robbie Thompson’s episodes because they have a feel more like earlier episodes. At least I feel like we have one writer who still gets the brother’s relationship. They argued about things in “Pac-Man Fever” but they worked together and solved the case and came together in the end in a positive way. IMO.
Let’s hope that TPTB figure out that what most of us loved about the show was the brother’s love, trust, loyalty and faith in each other against all odds and not big bro moments at the end of gut wrenching lies, secrets and deceits.
Well, that rant felt good and you’re right people can just scroll down if they don’t like it. Thanks for the discussion.[/quote]
Priz68….do you think the writers even care about fixing the relationship? Doi you think they have it in them? Or are they far more invested in Deans other relationships…..showing how wonderful all of Deans other relationships are by highlighting how flawed Sam and Deans realtionship is?
Amyh – I have no idea if the writers can fix the problem or if they even really understand that there is a problem or hell if it is even a problem for the majority of the fans. I just know it is a problem for me. After I saw “Slash Fiction” (at least until the very end) I thought, wow! This is like old times. The brothers in the fight together, on the same page, Bobby’s budding relationship with Jody Mills and the clever way of discovering how to slow down Leviathans, crazy Frank, and some funny moments. “Pac-Man Fever” was like that too. Dean wants Sam to stay home and shows him why. Sam takes another shot at the practice targets and says close enough. They argue about it a little during the case but then just start working together to save Charlie. I was totally surprised, in a good way, when Dean came in and hugged Sam at the end. That’s because I have become accustomed to every disagreement turning into a bitter argument.
I don’t think TPTB are too invested in Dean’s friendships and I don’t think Sam always gets the myth arc and Dean is a secondary character. I do think that they have overdone Sam being broken in some way every season and this year his point of view was poorly written. I do think they need to stop making Dean the guilty cheerleader and dumb ass. My own husband loves the Castiel character and it makes sense that Dean and Cas are close. Cas pulled him out of purgatory. But Dean was right this season when he told Sam he would have killed anyone else but Cas for the screw ups he’s caused. Castiel caused the Leviathans, which caused Dean to end up in purgatory, he pulled Sam out of hell without a soul, he broke Sam’s wall. He is the catalyst for half the problems between the brothers. So no, I don’t think Dean needs to get a new BFF every season. On the other hand, Cas is so popular with the fans and Charlie too, that they keep going back for the repeat. Slam!
JC and the writers would be stupid not to pay attention to this dedicated a fan base. We are the viewers and we are the reason they are making a living at this point at something they like to do. What I wonder is if they believe that we want the arguments and the angst and the brothers falling away from each other and the Sam vs Dean and then the big bro moment because that is what we comment about the most. In small doses, at appropriate times they were special moments, but like I said earlier, now I feel like I’m being slammed with it.
Look how many posts ( and I include myself in this) are negative about either Sam or Dean or both and their motives or say the brothers should just go their separate ways. Sam and Dean TOGETHER are the stars of our favorite show, their togetherness, their abiding love is the heart and soul of the show I love. I keep waiting for its return and if I could make that happen I would.
Robbie Thompson said he watched all 6 previous seasons of SPN before he started writing for the show. Maybe all the writers should, just to remind themselves what was so right. I wonder what happened to the JC who wrote “A Very Supernatural Christmas”. The feelings in that episode were profound and subtle and so very poignant.
Maybe we don’t need a bitterness thread, maybe we need a frustration thread.
Maybe thats the problem, Prix68. The writers HAVE watched the entire series….and in these writers perceptions (God, how I dispise this word) the latter half of the series is the best way to write the brothers and their relationship. Maybe they think now that the boys have been hunting together that THIS..the constant lies and manufactured conflict due to a serious refusal too COMMUNICATE is the real realtionship. Maybe they think the relationship in the first several seasons is the result of them getting to know each other due to the long absense. And the current relationship is a natural progression and the true relationship.
I think i’d rather the boys split up for half a season….let them correspoind via phone or email or text while tackleing the mytharc from opposite ends. Sam i think would benifit greatly…especially if the writers allowed him to have a recurring charector whom he could bounce his thoughts/feelings/ideas off of. HE could get advice or simply another perspective on his issues with Dean…just like Dean has with Cas or Bobby or Garth or Charlie.
Then when they come back together its not because Sam needs to be saved (ending the cheerleader/caretaker arcs for Dean) And Dean can reconcile that Sam not being glued to his side or not wanting the exact same thing he does doesn’t mean Sam is abandoning him. Or doesn’t love him. (thus ending Sams isolation and forced dependence on Dean. dude should have something of HIS Own – weather it be a friend or a dog or his own vehicle) They can come together as true partners. but better, more understanding brothers.
Amyh – Dean WAS willing to let Sam go this season and said so, but he did ask him to either get all in or all out. The same advice Bobby gave to Dean in S7 because only half in will get you killed. I realize Dean likes having his brother beside him hunting but since “Free to be You and Me” in S5 he has realized that he can also be happy hunting on his own. He said that to Cas in the car and to Sam at the beginning of “The End”. He just prefers to be with Sam and he’s entitled to his feelings. I personally don’t think this is about Dean having abandonment issues.
I will also remind you that Garth offered to listen to Sam in “Southern Comfort”. Sam could also have confided in Amelia. Telling Amelia about his other life wouldn’t have put her in any more jeopardy then what it was already hanging out with a Winchester and may have made for a more profound relationship in my opinion. Bobby also asked Sam directly how he was doing in S7. Sam could talk to Cas. Dean actually insisted on talking to Cas about purgatory when he told him to get out of the car while they were waiting for Mrs. Tran.
If Sam is isolated I guess that is his choice because he doesn’t want to share. Dean does apparently like to share. I don’t think Sam’s dependence on Dean is forced on him by Dean nor do I think it is an entirely bad thing. Dean is Sam’s rock. Dean is Sam’s big brother. We’re all dependent on other people in some way. Sam told Amelia his world imploded when he lost his brother. Maybe he should have shared that with Dean.
I’ve already said how I feel about the brothers going their separate ways.
Correction to my previous post – Cas pulled Dean out of hell not purgatory is what I meant.
And if he had told Dean his world imploded do you think it would of made a difference? . Dean had already made his mind up by the time we got to ‘there was a girl’ Sam may not be Mr Chatterbox when it comes to his feelings but IMO neither Garth or Castiel would be viable options for Sam as confidents . Amelia might of been but the writers never went there beyond ‘my world imploded’ and’ I ran’ .
It doesnt bother me wether the two stay together , do not stay together neither one is healthy for the other and Sam certainly doesnt need his past brought up again , Sacrifice and Sam’s confession was not a healthy state of mind to be in and although a heartbreaking scene a disturbing one at the same time that it had come to that.
Maybe there will be a different feeling to the brothers relationship in season 9? that as Jeremy put it ‘some dirty laundary was aired’ that we have moved on from the depressive suffocating relationship? that IMO puts too much pressure on both brothers .
Sharon, I sincerely do think it would have made a difference to Dean if Sam had said that when Dean asked him about looking for him in the beginning. Sam surely understood that what he said was hurting Dean’s feelings. Then again, since Sam and Dean are fictional characters in the hands of writers who decided not to have Sam look for Dean in the first place, maybe not.
On the whole I liked most of S8 ( loved purgatory scenes) but I do think JC and the writers made a huge mistake creating tension between the brothers in contrived ways in order to give us gushy bro moments later.
Sharon, just one thought from me. They may not be “good” for each other at times but I try and think how much more awful Sam’s childhood would have been without his brother and how often Sam was the voice of reason when Dean threatened to go off the rails. I think the reason that they are not both insane is that they have had each other to share the horrors. That’s how I choose to see it anyway. In spite of how they sometimes hurt each other, I believe they trust and love each other more than any other being that exists. When they are not at each other throats 😀 .
[quote]Amyh – Dean WAS willing to let Sam go this season and said so, but he did ask him to either get all in or all out. The same advice Bobby gave to Dean in S7 because only half in will get you killed. I realize Dean likes having his brother beside him hunting but since “Free to be You and Me” in S5 he has realized that he can also be happy hunting on his own. He said that to Cas in the car and to Sam at the beginning of “The End”. He just prefers to be with Sam and he’s entitled to his feelings. I personally don’t think this is about Dean having abandonment issues.
I will also remind you that Garth offered to listen to Sam in “Southern Comfort”. Sam could also have confided in Amelia. Telling Amelia about his other life wouldn’t have put her in any more jeopardy then what it was already hanging out with a Winchester and may have made for a more profound relationship in my opinion. Bobby also asked Sam directly how he was doing in S7. Sam could talk to Cas. Dean actually insisted on talking to Cas about purgatory when he told him to get out of the car while they were waiting for Mrs. Tran.
If Sam is isolated I guess that is his choice because he doesn’t want to share. Dean does apparently like to share. I don’t think Sam’s dependence on Dean is forced on him by Dean nor do I think it is an entirely bad thing. Dean is Sam’s rock. Dean is Sam’s big brother. We’re all dependent on other people in some way. Sam told Amelia his world imploded when he lost his brother. Maybe he should have shared that with Dean.
I’ve already said how I feel about the brothers going their separate ways.
Correction to my previous post – Cas pulled Dean out of hell not purgatory is what I meant.[/quote]
You honestly think Sam can talk to Castiel? The guy who ‘ignores Sam’ Cas’ words….who couldn’t be bothered to answer a prayer of a ‘friend’ who was supposed to be in Hell. A guy who purposly pulled Sam out souless? (another perception thing left to the fans to interpret). How can Sam talk to Castiel?
As to Garth…in order for anyone to be able to talk to him he needs to return from the phantom zone. 😀
Ameila….the writers lazy way of keeping Sam out of Deans story. They COULD have have had the two talk but god forbid they give Sam a voice before the last ten minutes of the 23rd episode. The point isn’t that Sam doesn’t want to share or wants to be isolated its that the writers WANT Sam to be isolated. And we have to ask why? Why do they feel Sam doesn’t deserve that friendships…the extended family that everyone else has?
As for Dean….he claims he knows Sam inside and out and yet he beleives the absolute worst about Sam. He doesn’t think “hey maybe my 200th death/disappearence was his breaking point.” Nope. Dean thinks “He met a girl and let me rot.”
If Dean beleives this why does he want to hunt with Sam? It makes no sense AT ALL.
The charecters relationship frusterates me. I dont find any of it enjoyable or fun. Its the ONLY relationswhip Sam has and its ALL constant angst and conflict …I feel like II HAVE too root for it simply because its the ONLY way I get to get Sams pov. I WANT to want to root for these guys but what person fictional or real would want constant angst and conflict in their lives?
Amyh – I still find the show to be clever in its ability to give us new and interesting stories and I still love the characters of Sam and Dean. I like most of the other characters as well. If there was no angst and conflict it wouldn’t be a drama. When I feel frustrated about the direction of the show I just remind myself that it is after all “just a fictional TV show” and enjoy it for the entertainment it is.
Prix, there is a difference between drama and meladrama.
And I find it tragic that no one … not one person has been able to answer the one thing that feeds my bitterness. How does Sam get into the impala with Dean day in and day out KNOWING Dean has it in him to use his intimate knowlehde of Sam to manipulate sam for his own ends. That Dean saw nothing wrong about the text, couldn’t understand why it hurt Sam. Or he did know just how much this would hurt Sam and did it anyway cause it got Dean what he wanted.
And NO ONE person – not even the WRITERS – sees the similarities of what Dean did to what Ruby did. What Azazel did. What Demon Brady did. What LUCIFER did.
And to get it off my chest so it stops eating me…I’m bitter that this thread has a picture of Dean, Castiel and Benny representing it. .
amyh,what Dean did was dickish but it’s not like Sam has never done anything to hurt Dean. People hurt those they are closest too when they are in a fight or intense situation. It is human nature to use intimate knowledge, even if it is wrong. Sam has made lots of mistakes as well. Everybody hurts those they love at some point.
amyh, you seem determined to be bitter about the text and I can’t change that nor can I defend it. It was a very wrong thing for Dean to have done. But where I part with you is that I don’t think Dean did it to hurt Sam and to bring back memories of Jessica. I think he used Amelia to get Sam out of town and away from any confrontation with Benny for both of their (Benny & Sam’s) sakes. There has been very few instances in the whole series that Dean set out to deliberately hurt Sam. He has hurt him and Sam has hurt Dean but not to be cruel, just in the course of angry confrontations or disagreements. I think Dean was genuinely shocked at how upset Sam was. I also think he realized just how dickish it was (he agreed with Charlie). He spent the rest of the season taking care of and worrying about Sam, like he has many, many times in the past. If you can’t get past this bitterness, and maybe you can’t, then it will color the rest of the series for you in a negative light. This season had both characters written to do things that seemed unlike Sam and Dean to me but it is what it is. The loyalty and love Dean has shown Sam in the past should count for something. As should the love and loyalty Sam has shown Dean. Mistakes were made but these two love each other and would still lay down their life for the other in a heartbeat!
[quote]
How does Sam get into the impala with Dean day in and day out KNOWING Dean has it in him to use his intimate knowlehde of Sam to manipulate sam for his own ends. .[/quote]
Sam forgives. Bottom line.
Sam knows his brother loves him. Sam knows what it is to do stupid things in the name of love and best intentions. Sam has known for 30 years that Dean is his home, his protector, his friend, his brother.
And Sam forgives.
[quote][quote]
How does Sam get into the impala with Dean day in and day out KNOWING Dean has it in him to use his intimate knowlehde of Sam to manipulate sam for his own ends. .[/quote]
Sam forgives. Bottom line.
Sam knows his brother loves him. Sam knows what it is to do stupid things in the name of love and best intentions. Sam has known for 30 years that Dean is his home, his protector, his friend, his brother.
And Sam forgives.[/quote]
St50, I love this- for what you said about Sam AND for what you said about Dean. Made me tear up.
I agree with Leah, st50, that was perfectly, beautifully said. By the way HI! to both of you!
[quote]amyh, you seem determined to be bitter about the text and I can’t change that nor can I defend it. It was a very wrong thing for Dean to have done. But where I part with you is that I don’t think Dean did it to hurt Sam and to bring back memories of Jessica. I think he used Amelia to get Sam out of town and away from any confrontation with Benny for both of their (Benny & Sam’s) sakes. There has been very few instances in the whole series that Dean set out to deliberately hurt Sam. He has hurt him and Sam has hurt Dean but not to be cruel, just in the course of angry confrontations or disagreements. I think Dean was genuinely shocked at how upset Sam was. I also think he realized just how dickish it was (he agreed with Charlie). He spent the rest of the season taking care of and worrying about Sam, like he has many, many times in the past. If you can’t get past this bitterness, and maybe you can’t, then it will color the rest of the series for you in a negative light. This season had both characters written to do things that seemed unlike Sam and Dean to me but it is what it is. The loyalty and love Dean has shown Sam in the past should count for something. As should the love and loyalty Sam has shown Dean. Mistakes were made but these two love each other and would still lay down their life for the other in a heartbeat![/quote]
Leah….and St50,
I dont WANT to be bitter or angry (its hella not worth the weight gain from emotional eating) and I’ve been thinking alot about this and I sort of think i understand my feelings a bit better.
Adn it goes right to what St50 said about Sam forgiving. Sam forgives. He forgets. He moves on. Which I admire a heck of a lot.
But the thing is…..the writers have Dean refusing to forgive.or move on. And i GET that sort of since Dean wont talk to Sam about it. But the writers haveing Dean bring it up year after year after year….Just how are the fans supposed to let it go and move on? And then there is the whole revolving door of lies that are gonna happen in s9. Sam will be expected to suck it up, forgive and move on. And if Sam does someting Dean doesn’t like…..will he bring up every way Sam has betrayed him and and hold it over him till the series ends?
Canon and history says yes.
This brings me back to Sam and his foregiving nature. I do think it ties into Sam understanding how someone can get lost and screw up….really really screw up. And i wonder if Sam foregives because his his heart is that big or becasue he doesn’t think/feel he is worth being foregivin and doesn’t have a RIGHT to be angry? Or does he know from experience where Anger can lead (Lucifer said he wanted Sam angry…and it was only when he let his anger go and let his love for Dean in that he was able to take over control) So does Sam forgive because he knows anger only hurts the one who is angry? Can it be a combination? Why can’t we see this in Sam talking to someone?
Does Sam foregive himself? As i see it Sam betrayed more then Dean in season 4. he betrayed himself. He betrayed nd compromised his own morals and principals for an ends justifies the means. Think about this. This is the same guy who died in Cold oak because he refused to give into and join Azazel.
I’d really like to see Dean truely and honestly forgive Sam without wondering when the other shoe will drop. . I’d like to se Sam give some of that foregiveness of his toward himself. Sam has 30 years of being a brother and son. 30 years of being a good, heroic, loving man whose the done the best he could in a job where he’s alwasy felt he was in over his head.
I was thinking. In s8 Sam IMPLODED. What Sam did in s4 be considered EXPLODING?
I am hoping that by Dean bringing up these issues more than once this season is JC’s way of finally put them to rest. I thought I read an interview of his saying something like he would like to resolve a lot of the brothers issues that haven’t been addressed for a few seasons. I for one was glad to see the db brought up again. I also think that Sam was purified or the treatments on Crowley wouldn’t have been working. I think that was a way to put that issue to rest. I am hoping that Dean realized just how much holding on to his grudges have affected not only his brother but himself. When he told Sam to let it go I really believe he meant himself (and the fans) as well. At least I hope that is the case and we will get to watch the brothers in a better place. Yes season 9 starts out with secret but since the secret is about Sam I know that Sam will forgive his brother. Dean hardly ever keeps a secret unless he thinks it is in Sam’s best interest. That was why the whole keeping Benny a secret didn’t work for me. It really was the only off note about season 8 for me.
This has been an interesting dialog. I’ve oft thought as Amyh, wondering why Sam didn’t just walk away, why he was always the one acquiescing or the one apologizing. The PTB could have just thought he was just that kind of guy, he forgives. But why? Because he just thinks Dean is right and he’d be silly to hold a grudge? Because he doesn’t think it’s worth the fight? Because he understands mistakes and feels everyone deserves forgiveness and if he forgives maybe he’ll one day be forgiven? Or, because he truely feels that all the bad done to him is deserved and he should just suck it up?
Honestly, I think there was always that open question with Sam, and I think season 8 tried to answer that. It took the whole year, but in the end Sam basically said he was a failure & burden and apparently all he could do was let Dean down. This is what Dean needed to hear, and his response was what Sam needed to hear. Was it perfect? Obviously not, but what emotional end of the rope confession is? Will we ever get a long and drawn out conversation on screen? Doubtful, but not necessary either. The story going forward will tell if those issues have been or can be resolved.
So in the end we did get to see some of “why” Sam chooses to forgive and move forward. The rest is up to our imagination (until PTB decide to give us more). I’m good with that.
#261 Thisoldbag……..perfect.
Responding to amyh re: Dean/Sam/Benny
amyh, I think that both Sam and Benny were looking at each other with the benefit of prior experience and through the prism of Dean. Sam spends the first half of the season watching with some horror this feral person with extreme interrogation methods who is back to seeing things in black and white and who only distantly resembles the brother from the end of Season 7. Sam then meets Benny – a vampire who has just been in this pure survival-of-the-fittest purgatory world and has now been released into the real world. So take what Dean has been like since he got back and add vampire to it. Now look back at what the Alpha vampire said about Soulless Sam and what a great vampire he would make, yeah Sam had good reason to have his suspicions of Benny.
On the other hand Benny has only to assume that Sam is Dean’s brother and therefore extremely like him in temperament. Dean fought his way through purgatory and didn’t let anything get in the way of what he needed to do. He killed everything that wasn’t in his immediate ring of protection. Benny would be very clear that Dean really hates supernatural creatures (except of course Benny, but Benny knows that that is because they have fought together for a year – he knows that Sam has no such reason to trust). Benny didn’t know Dean prior to Purgatory so he doesn’t know how much Dean has reverted to hunter mode and that this is not really the Dean that we know.
Benny assumes that Sam will want him dead, principally because of what he knows about Dean and the fact that Dean is keeping his existence secret from Sam. Benny can see how all this will look to Sam, he as good as says so on at least one occasion.
And Benny knows that if Sam is like the Dean Benny knew in Purgatory, he will have no compunction about killing a suspicious character to protect those he is committed to (loves).
I always felt that Sam and Benny considered each other almost dispassionately. I don’t feel that they hated each other and I think that the ‘Sam is jealous of Benny’ trope is rubbish (IMO). Each one was clear about the other one’s aims and intents. They were each puzzled by what Dean had to say about the other because from their point of view if Dean really believed what he was saying about each (once he STARTED talking about them), why wouldn’t he let them meet and get to know each other? And both were willing to listen until Dean was no longer convincing.
Dean’s major offence here was keeping them secret from each other initially and allowing it all to come to a head. Which the show has not explained at all…
My point is basically that Dean didn’t need to say a word about Sam, and I really don’t see any reason for him to have actively tried to make Sam seem like a monster to Benny.
eilf, you brought up some really interesting points. While I do think there may have been a smidge of jealousy of Sam’s part, I think there were a lot of reasons why he had concerns about Benny, but I hadn’t thought of it like “Dean-back-from-purgatory-plus-being-a-vampire”. That does make perfect sense.
I also wanted to shake Dean for not introducing them before Sam figures it out while he’s still consumed with panic and worry. If he’d just given them a chance to get to know each other then Sam wouldn’t have had to take Dean’s word for it on Benny’s character. But I do think Dean’s earned a more than a little trust and Sam should have made more of an effort to see what Dean saw. Or not, as the case may be. Same issue I had when Dean killed Amy. If he’d really talked to her. Listened to her situation and took time to judge her character, I wouldn’t have had as much problem with it. But he completely ignored Sam’s judgment on the issue. Whereas here Sam was completely ignoring Dean’s judgment-which I also don’t like. I swear they need couples therapy to work on there communications skills 😀
Eilf, this is a very thoughtful comment and I, as a fan of Dean, have no issue with any of your thoughts. I think Dean’s actions (also the absence of explanations) contributed to the escalation of the hostilities. As did some of Sam’s actions. My issue with this season stems from these things. In order to create the conflict needed for the brothers to FINALLY start communicating the show felt the need to have both of them do rather unlikable things. Things I do not feel that were entirely characteristic considering how much these boys care about each other. I am glad the season ended on a positive note but really felt the route there was unnecessarily divisive for the characters and fans alike.
I did not like the shaming of Sam through Benny. So I am not to be fair a fan of the whole thing it was a sl which only resulted in Sam being wrong and Benny proving his loyalty to Dean by going back to Purgatory to save the brother who in Dean’s words ‘Had no time for him ‘.
#263 eilf, I like your take on this, because you put a lot of thought into it, came up with a fresh concept (PurgatoryDean+vamp) and you were so convincing! Well done! 8)
#265 Leah, I agree that the season was unnecessarily divisive. That is what I disliked about it too.
[quote]Responding to amyh re: Dean/Sam/Benny
amyh, I think that both Sam and Benny were looking at each other with the benefit of prior experience and through the prism of Dean. Sam spends the first half of the season watching with some horror this feral person with extreme interrogation methods who is back to seeing things in black and white and who only distantly resembles the brother from the end of Season 7. Sam then meets Benny – a vampire who has just been in this pure survival-of-the-fittest purgatory world and has now been released into the real world. So take what Dean has been like since he got back and add vampire to it. Now look back at what the Alpha vampire said about Soulless Sam and what a great vampire he would make, yeah Sam had good reason to have his suspicions of Benny.
On the other hand Benny has only to assume that Sam is Dean’s brother and therefore extremely like him in temperament. Dean fought his way through purgatory and didn’t let anything get in the way of what he needed to do. He killed everything that wasn’t in his immediate ring of protection. Benny would be very clear that Dean really hates supernatural creatures (except of course Benny, but Benny knows that that is because they have fought together for a year – he knows that Sam has no such reason to trust). Benny didn’t know Dean prior to Purgatory so he doesn’t know how much Dean has reverted to hunter mode and that this is not really the Dean that we know.
Benny assumes that Sam will want him dead, principally because of what he knows about Dean and the fact that Dean is keeping his existence secret from Sam. Benny can see how all this will look to Sam, he as good as says so on at least one occasion.
And Benny knows that if Sam is like the Dean Benny knew in Purgatory, he will have no compunction about killing a suspicious character to protect those he is committed to (loves).
I always felt that Sam and Benny considered each other almost dispassionately. I don’t feel that they hated each other and I think that the ‘Sam is jealous of Benny’ trope is rubbish (IMO). Each one was clear about the other one’s aims and intents. They were each puzzled by what Dean had to say about the other because from their point of view if Dean really believed what he was saying about each (once he STARTED talking about them), why wouldn’t he let them meet and get to know each other? And both were willing to listen until Dean was no longer convincing.
Dean’s major offence here was keeping them secret from each other initially and allowing it all to come to a head. Which the show has not explained at all…
My point is basically that Dean didn’t need to say a word about Sam, and I really don’t see any reason for him to have actively tried to make Sam seem like a monster to Benny.[/quote]
Eilf, thank you for your comments. I geuss this is my biggest beef with the show. And Carver. Why show did not explain why Dean would let benny adn Sam get to the point they did. But I sort og have to disagree that Dean didn’t perpetrate bennys misperceptions about Sam. Benny went back to Purgatory not changing HIS thoughts about Sam….and yet SAam changed his opionion of benny.
Andn We ALL know Deans word is gospel on Supernatural. (They even made an episode about it) So for 10 episodes we were told benny is the super special vampire; a brother who never let him down. While Sam is te worthless brother whose has been INTENTIONALLY betraying Dean ever since he goot into Deans car.
And then the writers have special Benny give up his life for Sam…have Dean and Benny having a huge emotional moment (even though benny was going to come right back via Sam) and THEN Dean tells Sam in sacrifice he killed his best friend for Sam.
@268, Dean’s word is gospel only in so far as the viewer decides to make it so. The writers, however, definitely do not present it as that. This season, thus far, Dean’s actions have been hugely questionable and his explanations surprising nonexistent. We don’t know why he did what he did (on many occasions) so we can’t say that what he did was definitely right. Viewers have to make up their own minds about Dean and his ‘rightness’.
For me, there have been a tremendous amount of similarities in Sam’s actions and Dean’s actions this season and if I’m meant to look at what Sam did and think him a lesser person because of it then logic dictates that I should also think less of Dean when he does the exact same thing. Take for example, Dean’s anger at Sam for not looking for him. Some insight as to why Sam did not do that was provided. Yes, it might not have been enough and it might not have been crystal clear but it [i]was[/i] provided. However, there was no explanation (from the show or from the fans) as to why Dean did not try to help Castiel after Dean got out of Purgatory. I mean, Dean (a) knew that Castiel was alive (b) knew where he was and (c) knew that it was possible to get him out (d) had plenty of people who could help him and (e) felt he was responsible for Castiel not getting out yet the fact that he didn’t try to save him was never brought up. Perhaps it’s a case that Dean expects more from Sam? Perhaps it’s a case that he doesn’t expect any better from Sam and so has no hesitation in berating him because of it? Perhaps it was put in to show similarities in Sam and Dean’s respective state of minds and thus help to explain Sam’s behaviour? Perhaps the writers just forgot about it? Whatever it was, it has not been addressed so should fans just consider that Dean did the right thing by not trying to get him out?
For the first time in a long time, we haven’t been told [i]why[/i] Dean did a fraction of the things that he did in season 8. It’s possible that Dean doesn’t even know why he did them. We don’t know why he kept Benny a secret from Sam. We don’t know who he was protecting (himself, Sam or Benny) and who he was not trusting (himself, Sam or Benny). However, it does not come across as Dean being ‘right’, especially in light of what he said about confession and Ruby after.
Also, Benny did not give up his life for Sam. Benny [i]wanted[/i] to go back to Purgatory. This was his way back. Dean didn’t hear (didn’t want to hear?) that. He just assumed that Benny would want to be ‘rescued’.
In relation to the ‘Sam is the brother who has intentionally been betraying Dean since he sat into his ride’ idea. Yes Dean said it but if he believes it, that’s on Dean. If Dean only sees Sam in terms of the negative results of what he does, that’s on Dean. If Dean only sees Sam as the product of his mistakes, that’s on Dean. If Dean only sees Sam in terms of how Sam affect him (Dean), that’s on Dean. If Dean judges himself to be morally justified and Sam to not be, when they do the exact same thing, that’s on Dean. And if the viewers take everything Dean says as fact, if they take his feelings about a situation and believe that to be what actually happened, if they fail to see beyond his words, that’s on them. And by failing to look beyond Dean’s words, I feel you’re missing an awful lot of the show.
Nice Tim, I agree with this. For some reason on this show, Sam’s actions are open to interpretation and Dean’s are given the validity of being “right” in many of the fans eyes, without any such supporting evidence that the show is taking this track on screen. It’s weird…
I had another thought about Dean’s anger over Sam not looking for him; Dean knew about the portal seemingly very early on in his stay in Purgatory and then choose to stay there deliberately to look for Cas. It seems to me that Dean could have gotten out of Purgatory at any time… and ended up there a year only because he choose to stay. Had Sam looked for him, found him and managed to get to Purgatory to save him BEFORE he found Cas, what would Dean have done at that point? Left Cas and gone back to the world with Sam? I doubt it. Would he have made Sam hang out in Purgatory with him, hacking and slashing for months while they continued to look for Cas? Probably. If Dean wasn’t willing to leave Purgatory with Benny, he probably wouldn’t have left it for Sam either not until Cas was found. So to me Dean’s anger at Sam seems somewhat misplaced seeing as how as soon as he met Benny, he could have left Purgatory at any time. He choose to stay, which is admirable, he didn’t want to leave Cas behind I get that, but his anger at Sam over what turned out to be his own choice seems rather unfair IMO.
E, Tim and Amy, I do think Dean’s response to Sam not looking was pure hurt. I think he responded with anger because he was more comfortable with that but I don’t their was a lot of rational thought or logic in his reaction. I think, he was devastated that Sam moved on from his loss so easily without even bothering to look. Regardless of what they had told each other, he expected Sam to do as he would have done and move Heaven and Earth to find him. Well like (though I’m loathed to mention it) the thing with Amelia’s husband. She had moved on and that to be killing her husband, even if she thought he was dead. It’s not fair or rational, but it is what it is.
Sam and Dean are supposed to have a deeper connection than most married couples-they’ve literally died for one another. So why wouldn’t Dean instinctively think that Sam wouldn’t just give up on him, regardless of what they’ve said to each other previously. So when he found out Sam did nothing, it crushed him and he responded with anger.
So I guess my point is though logically you make total sense, Tim. Their actions are very similar, I don’t think that had much if anything to do with Dean’s response to Sam not looking, definitely not initially. I think he was working on pure gut emotion.
Amy, let me preface this by saying I hated that they never explained why Sam didn’t look with they heat of a thousand suns. They ruined the season for me and came close to ruining the show in its entirety for me. Because if Sam can so easily walk away, why do I even care about this relationship. Yes it is reasonable decision. Rational. Logical. Well-balanced. No psychologist would fault him for it. But I didn’t sign up for that show. I signed up for the show where they are more than a little irrational when it comes to each other. I feel like it was a real blow to Sam’s character as well as the show. No he wasn’t WRONG. But he’s not the character I thought he was either if we go by nothing but what they gave us. And I HATE that. Really, really hate that.
That said, I feel as though you are trying to corrected the damage that you feel has been done to Sam’s character by making Dean a total villein. Dissecting every decision and mistake and declaring him cruel and evil because of them. When most make him no more than human. Seemingly ignoring everything he has done for Sam in the past year alone, let alone his whole life. But just like it life tearing someone else down doesn’t make anyone else better. If I’m wrong with my pop psychology, feel free to tell me.
I do commiserate your feelings of frustrations with the show, even if I in no way share your feelings about Dean.
Kelly, Yes, I think you are right that Dean really was hurt, very hurt and I even think he had a right to be on some level, and I don’t feel like I am vilifying him, just pointing out some inconsistencies in his behavior. I don’t hate Dean, I never have. However, if we can criticize Sam’s decision to not look (and I have, I still hate the decision even though it has yielded some wonderful drama late in the season) I can also criticize some of Dean’s reactions as well. Sam not looking was awful and unlike him and not something I would have EVER expected him to do, but Dean’s criticisms of Sam’s actions, his secrets, his grudge holding etc. are no less unlike him, out of character or criticism worthy than what Sam has done; each bad act stands on its own. Sam did an awful thing by not looking for Dean and in response Dean did an awful thing in reaction to his hurt.
I don’t see anything in my post that calls Dean evil or a villain though, not sure where you are getting that from.
[quote]… I hated that they never explained why Sam didn’t look with they heat of a thousand suns. They ruined the season for me and came close to ruining the show in its entirety for me. Because if Sam can so easily walk away, why do I even care about this relationship. Yes it is reasonable decision. Rational. Logical. Well-balanced. No psychologist would fault him for it. But I didn’t sign up for that show. I signed up for the show where they are more than a little irrational when it comes to each other. I feel like it was a real blow to Sam’s character as well as the show. No he wasn’t WRONG. But he’s not the character I thought he was either if we go by nothing but what they gave us. And I HATE that. Really, really hate that.
[/quote]
Ah Kelly. (#271)
Four months into hellatus, and this is STILL where I am, too – and why I can’t do a re-watch, and quite probably never will. I agree with you, Kelly, it has almost ruined the entire show for me. (Although, honestly, no explanation would help me. They just shouldn’t have gone there!)
I needed the Sam who pushes through everything and does what needs to be done for his brother: Mystery Spot Sam, and “you know me, you know why” Sam. This S8 Sam, while understandable and very very human (well done there, Carver), was not one of the two characters who, way back when I found the show, filled my personal need for being able to fight past everything – even death – for his loved one. One of the two who proved that love indeed conquers all.
Having announced my biggest issue with season 8 (multiple times, SORRY!), everything else is minor in my eyes, and something I could ignore – if it wasn’t piled up on top of this thing I can’t ignore. I spent most of the season waiting for the reveal of why Sam wasn’t being Sam. What kind of manipulation was going on? Apparently, it was just Carver “making him human”.
Well, that part didn’t work for me, but, ignoring that part, the rest I can understand…..I don’t really believe that any further action or word from one brother was worse than what the other did/said (or didn’t do/say). They were both reacting to stress, trauma and hurt for the majority of the season, and striking out at the one who loves them best. That, afterall, seems to be a very human (if stupid) thing to do. (And not so much what I want to see)
E, NO! Sorry I wasn’t talking about you or Tim with that last part. I put Amy. I should have made a separate post! But since we were all responding to Amy’s original one I left it in that one. SORRY! Of course, anyone has the right to question a character’s actions. And I myself have definitely pointed out some dumbass or even mean moves I thought he made. But I just read several of Amy’s posts lately that have taken all Dean’s actions out of context and have given Sam a hand wave. That’s what I was talking about. And I could be completely off base on that too. It was getting late I was tired. I probably shouldn’t have said anything but I really do understand what I thought was her motivations, even if I don’t agree with the conclusions.
I didn’t even think what you or Tim wrote was even really harsh at all. I was just pointing out that I didn’t think trying to use logic to explain his actions would work for that because it was all emotion based. But that is purely subjective so I could easily be wrong. Sorry again!
I do commiserate your feelings of frustrations with the show, even if I in no way share your feelings about Dean.[/quote]
Kelly, your wrong. I dont villify Dean….i will just say that E explains it better then I do in the post below yours.
Also I DO think the Carver’s plan was to make Sam more human but he also villianized that humanity. Sam was simply unable to keep going after so many hits….but Carver made it CLEAR through Dean that Sams human flaw of FEELING the loss of his beloved broother so deeply that he simply couldn’t just keep going…couldn’t do what he normally would do .. wwwas wrong…was a betrayal. That Sams’ flawed HUMANITY was a betrayal.
This is the message that CARVER implied….and basically Sam had to apologize for being human, for having reached a breaking point.
I’m not blaming Dean but the fact that Carver used Dean to impart this message. And I hate that CARVER gave Sam a human story but then turned around and said Sam was wrong for being human and having human flaws and simply not being strong enough to keep going.
I hope to God I’m wrong but this is the message Carver told me…through DEAN….through BOBBY and through Meg repeatedly telling Sam he was wrong to feel lost; for breaking at the …what? 100th loss of his beloved brother? He was wrong for being human and having a very human reaction who simply couldn’t deal with one more loss.
I know Sam hates himself for not being as strong as Dean needed him to be. But I think Sam has given everything he has for Dean in the past 8 years and he just ran out of strength.
I’m blaming the showrunner. I’m blaming Carver. For using Dean to villify Sams humanity. ANd for taking Sam’s stregnth and perseverence away and yes….I agree Carver has destoryed something that used to be very special betweenn te boys.
No problemo Kelly!! 😉
st50, yeah I’m still having HUGE issues with it too obviously 😀 Though for me it could easily be fixed. He was weakened and vulnerable and alone. If he had a complete and total meltdown, I could easily accept that since he had Lucifer and memories of 180 years in Hell in his head for most of the year before. He barely recovered before Dean disappeared. So for me it would be an incredibly easy fix. Just show or even tell me what happened in that lost few months before Amelia. This long after it wouldn’t be my favorite solution-I’d prefer something that explained why he didn’t look when he got better and why he didn’t ever tell Dean- but I will gladly grasp at any straw to save this for me. Though I don’t understand if that really is the reason they just didn’t show that to begin with, especially if he didn’t tell Dean. All the brother angst with very little character damage done. I will just never understand why they choose instead to just say this is the way it is with almost no explanation. I also find it to be very bad writing.
I also agree any of my other problems with S8 I could ignore, even the trashing of canon, which I hated if they could just fix this one thing. Otherwise I’m going to give S9 a shot.It does look really good but I’m having trouble separating from this season. Perhaps it will be so overwhelming good that I can just pretended S8 didn’t happened as long as they never ever mention it again. Which I don’t think will happen, so I feel like maybe I’m screwed. 🙁
But I pinning all my hopes to nappi being right and them just continuing on and filling in a lot of gaps.
amyh, I’m sorry if I misunderstood. But I got to say a good portions of your posts do not come off as just angry with Carver. Many come off to me as if you out and out hate Dean, even if that is not the case.
As for the using Dean and other characters to vilify Sam, I can your point, but I don’t think that was the intention. And like I said I REALLY, REALLY HATE that they didn’t give Sam a voice about this. And as frustrating as I find it that the usually do give Dean the chance to explain his decisions and mistakes, but not Sam. That is not the character’s fault. I agree that is the writers fault.
Again I am in complete sympathy with your anger towards Carver.
E WHEW! The only thing we are allowed to disagree on from now on is Dr. Pepper. It stresses me out! 😀
Hi amyh (#275). I am sorry but I am going to have to respectfully, totally, even vehemently disagree here. I do not see that the writers had any intention of “using Dean to vilify Sam’s humanity”. I am sorry if you do, but I will go so far as to say that this is your interpretation of things and not fact. I don’t believe it for a second. You are assuming that all the writers hate Sam and are looking for ways to make him look bad and that everything Dean does is right and good. I just don’t see this as accurate at all. I think that this is what Tim was alluding to in her post (Tim can correct me if I am wrong). There is an assumption among THE FANS (and only certain fans) that what Dean does and says is right not matter what and that Sam is always wrong. I am sorry but IMO this view is not supported in the writing or on the screen. Many of Dean’s actions this season have been wrong and many of Sam’s have been right, but not all the time, that would be unrealistic. I agree with Tim. It’s clear that Dean disapproved of Sam’s actions regarding the now infamous ‘not looking’ but its also clear that Sam disapproved of Deans actions regarding Benny. Was either one more right or wrong? Both were shown to be in error of their judgement; Sam was shown to be in error regarding Benny and Dean was shown to be in error about how much Dean means to Sam in Sacrifice. If Dean learned anything in that episode it is that his words and actions had hurt Sam terribly and had pushed him to the edge and that he DID matter to Sam, maybe too much; enough for Sam to sacrifice himself for Dean’s desires to close the gates of hell. It’s all quite balanced if you ask me.
E, I am NOT disagreeing with you. I want to make that clear. Only DP. 😀 But while I don’t think it was intentional in anyway. I do think they had characters putting Sam’s actions in a bad light. Especially Dean and Bobby. And since we never heard Sam’s side of things (and the few times he did defend himself it was lame ie “You had secrets. You had Benny.”), it creates the impression that Sam is in the wrong.
I THINK maybe what they were trying to do was to create sympathy for Sam but having those he was closest to “beat up” on him. They did that it season 5 and it worked pretty well, at least for me. But the thing is he had actually done a bad thing then. So for me it now it comes off as more they are declaring his actions wrong. And since he never got to explain them…….
But I don’t think the writers hate Sam or even did it deliberately but I do think it had that effect to an extent.
There are several deleted scenes from S8 that would have changed the way some fans would have viewed Dean’s and Sam’s choices. Specifically in TD and S. I had heard early in the year about a scene between the brothers where Sam explained his year to Dean. If that is true it would have been nice for the fans to have seen that. Just like Jim Michaels has stated that it was Don outside Sam and Amelia’s house and that was explained, sometimes I think the show runners assume that certain scenes were aired or explained so no further explanation is needed. Maybe someone needs to review the episode more carefully to make sure everything that needs to be said is there.
Having said that I also think that we as fans were never supposed to doubt the brothers love for each other. Just their seemingly never ending trust issues.
cheryl, really? I have only seen 3 scenes online (I’ll admit I’m completely broke this year and couldn’t bring myself to spend money on a season I had such issues with) and they didn’t have anything to do with Sam’s missing time. What’s on them?
Sorry this is what happens when I try to make sense before coffee. What I meant was that there were scenes that were shot but never aired. I think Jared talked about a scene that was shot between him and Jensen where they talked about their year apart. In Bitten that was actually alluded to. Some of the deleted scenes I have seen so far would have explained even further Sam’s mindset in Sacrifice. I was just speculating that maybe the reason why the characterization of Sam and Dean seemed off is because scenes were written and shot but not aired. Jim Michaels seemed certain that everyone new it was Don but that was never shown. I think that maybe the writers think that more is being shown and explained than we the viewers are actually getting to see.
But I still think we are supposed to never question the love that the brothers have for each other even if they do sometimes.
Also the deleted scene between Benny and Dean in Taxi Driver would have made Benny’s choice make a lot more sense if it had been left in.
cheryl, I honestly don’t know if that makes me more or less upset. I suppose if it was on the dvd extras it would sort of give us something. But still why wouldn’t the put that in the show? Why cut something to crucial? No definitely leaning towards lot more upset. Without seeing them and knowing what was said it is hard to make a judgment though. But thanks for heads up. I keep a look out for them online.
About questioning the love for one another, that’s why it is hard for me to watch this season because it does leave me with a bad feeling when ever the mention Sam not looking-which was A LOT. I really thought they were going somewhere with it they were pushing it so hard. But in the end it was just for one fabulous scene in Sacrifice that could have still had the same impact without damaging Sam’s character so badly. Even without all the stuff that Sam’s done in the past he could have just felt guilty that he failed to find Dean. Instead not looking for him at all. It actually would fit that final scene just as well but without Sam taking such a hard hit.
I always took the not looking to mean that Sam thought that Dean had died. If he hadn’t why didn’t Castiel bring him back unless he had died also. I don’t remember any case other than Dean’s and John’s demon deals that would break anyone out of heaven (and back then neither John (I assume) or Dean believed in heaven.) So much suffering came of those decisions that I thought Sam and Dean understood that making a deal was only going to result in catastrophe. I for one never thought Sam made the wrong decision. I always thought he made the only one he could at the time. He didn’t know what we fans knew. He only knew that Dean had died.
Again the scene between the brothers as far as I know is not on the extras, it was just alluded to in the Bitten episode.
cheryl, they sent a lot of mixed messages on whether or not Sam thought Dean was dead. If they said he looked but ended up concluding he died, I doubt there would have be much fallout. But the way they handled it we don’t actually know what exactly Sam thought. Did he think Dean was dead or eating a taco somewhere? We don’t know if he had breakdown or just logically decided not to look or anything really about that time between when Dean disappeared and Sam hit the dog. And if he told Dean for sure he thought he was dead in some off screen or cut screen. Than why was Dean still under the impression he just never looked at all.
There are so many questions surrounding that time and decision that I really did think they were deliberately leaving it open because there was a huge reveal. Since there is I’m left to conclude the writers just completely and totally dropped the ball. And if it was something not so crucial to the series I would roll my eyes and look for the best explanation I could get. But to me this not something that can be left unexplained, obviously many others feel differently and that’s good for them, it doesn’t work for me though. But I appreciate you trying to make it work.
Well Sam did tell both Amelia and her father that he had lost his brother and that he had died. But your right the writers did bring the subject up a lot over the season. I also was expecting a visual explanation in a flashback or conversation, but it didn’t happen. I chose to roll with it. I know others couldn’t. I hope S9 helps heal the fandom. Although it seems nothing gets the fandom in more of an uproar that throwing Sam under the bus. Here it is months after the end of S8 and it is still a very sore subject. Just saying…..
cheryl, but they also had him say he didn’t look and just ran. I have never been this upset with this show or anyshow, besides X-Files when they said Mulder just left Scully for her own good. Again it made no sense within the characters’ relationship.
And it is not that they threw [i]Sam[/i] under a bus, I would be equally upset if Sam had been the one sent to Purgatory and Dean hadn’t bother to look for him and had gone and found Lisa and Ben and settled down without any explanation of how he came to that conclusion. Although I think the outcry would have been even louder from the Dean girls, because Dean would NEVER do that. And Sam has screwed up before. But they didn’t do that with Dean they made sure to say Dean kept looking despite it being seemingly hopeless. They gave him an amazing montage showing how though he was with Lisa and Ben, he couldn’t forget Sam. Sam got really no explanation and yes that upsets me but if they’d done that to Dean I would have been pissed too.
I don’t remember Sam saying he didn’t look. But every time it was brought up he didn’t deny it. When I say that they threw Sam under the bus again it seems that he is the character that screws up/gets screwed every season. Nothing inflames the fandom more than another Sam screw up. And every year Sam/Jared takes it like a man. I don’t know but for me Jared broke my heart from the very first scene. His performances all season were subtle and again for me I saw the sadness and the guilt of his character. I just so got the story of Sam but I understand why so many didn’t.
I have heard the Dean didn’t stop looking for Sam argument also, but the difference is that Dean knew where Sam was (we did too, outside under a lamppost). Sam didn’t have that same info. We did so some of the fans assumed that Sam should have guessed or somehow known. I believe the intent of the writers, directors, showrunners and actors was that Sam didn’t have that information and he thought that Dean had died. I too wish they had left out that unfortunate line about eating a taco. That didn’t help the Sam fans at all. But I try not to let a throwaway line dictate how I feel about a character or a season. Again I hope that S9 helps to heal the fandom.
Quoting Kelly #281
“I do think they had characters putting Sam’s actions in a bad light. Especially Dean and Bobby. And since we never heard Sam’s side of things (and the few times he did defend himself it was lame ie “You had secrets. You had Benny.”), it creates the impression that Sam is in the wrong.”
Well, I can’t really argue that other character’s harped on the ‘not looking’ all throughout the season, cause they did indeed. Although, to be fair, Bobby was just as shocked with Dean “going off the reservation” by befriending a vampire as he was about Sam’s not looking. He gave equal 😮 to each brother. But Dean was shown overall to be just as wrong in his approach to Sam and his anger over the matter finally in Sacrifice. Maybe we had to listen over and over about how wrong headed Sam had been, but we got to see how wrong Dean’s attitude had been finally in Sacrifice. And maybe its once again a matter of show vs. tell, but I found Dean’s realization in that episode to be epically good and angsty and honest. He went bonafide chick-flick. Maybe we had to pay dearly for that scene in Sacrifice, but I loved it still the same, maybe even more so for how hard it was to get there.
Still though, I wouldn’t mind a little fleshing out of things; maybe in episode one of season 9? There was THAT SCENE revealed in the preview clip (do you know which one I mean, I am trying to not spoil anyone who is avoiding the clip.) The set up of THAT SCENE looks like it could contain a heart to heart and Brangst and all manner of angsty goodness………..
……hopefully. Is it October yet?
By the way I think we are in dead horse territory so we should probably let this conversation go for now. I don’t really disagree with anything you have said I am just trying to put a positive spin on it. I still very much enjoy the show so I probably don’t belong in the bitterness thread.
[quote]I don’t remember Sam saying he didn’t look. But every time it was brought up he didn’t deny it. When I say that they threw Sam under the bus again it seems that he is the character that screws up/gets screwed every season. Nothing inflames the fandom more than another Sam screw up. And every year Sam/Jared takes it like a man. I don’t know but for me Jared broke my heart from the very first scene. His performances all season were subtle and again for me I saw the sadness and the guilt of his character. I just so got the story of Sam but I understand why so many didn’t.
I have heard the Dean didn’t stop looking for Sam argument also, but the difference is that Dean knew where Sam was (we did too, outside under a lamppost). Sam didn’t have that same info. We did so some of the fans assumed that Sam should have guessed or somehow known. I believe the intent of the writers, directors, showrunners and actors was that Sam didn’t have that information and he thought that Dean had died. I too wish they had left out that unfortunate line about eating a taco. That didn’t help the Sam fans at all. But I try not to let a throwaway line dictate how I feel about a character or a season. Again I hope that S9 helps to heal the fandom.[/quote]
Cheryl I agree with you about Sam (and by extension Jared) getting thrown under a bus each season, it is pretty unfair. However, if it makes you feel any better the word taco doesn’t appear anywhere in any of the season 8 transcripts. Nor does ‘burger’ or ‘town’ in relation to what Sam thought Dean might be doing instead of being in Purgatory. (I might have missed it but I don’t see how – the find function in word is pretty useful, especially considering all the transcripts for Season 8 add up to 1,064 pages 😀 ). The only time that line was said was by Jared in interviews, he was so clearly unconvinced by the entire storyline that he had a little spiel that he recited every time anyone asked him about it and he said the ‘taco in another town’ / burger in another town’ thing a couple of times.
Sam never said it.
eilf….thanks for that. I think I had heard that line so many times I thought it was part of the show. Then that makes me wonder how Sam got so misunderstood this season.
[quote]eilf….thanks for that. I think I had heard that line so many times I thought it was part of the show. Then that makes me wonder how Sam got so misunderstood this season.[/quote]
Honestly Cheryl, you aren’t the only one, I heard it so many times quoted as being part of the show and the more I thought about it the less I could see how Sam could have said it … so I went hunting and couldn’t find it.
It isn’t even semantics like the difference between ‘better brother’ (not a line in the show) and ‘more of a brother’ (the actual line) it just isn’t there….
Sam thought Dean was dead, he said that in episode one. “Dude, you’re freaking alive?” End of story really.
Hey eilf, I did a little digging too on Superwiki and you’re right, the line about the taco/burger was never there. Sam only said in the episode that he thought Dean was dead… several times in fact. Hmmm… interesting. Just goes to show how things can get warped out of all proportion and the actual facts of a thing can go missing.
No bitterness but some of my wishes for season 9 would to have Dean actually say the words “Sam I trust you” to set some minds at ease. I have no doubt at all that he does but still…..and there would still be skeptics.
Another would be that Benny does something “bad” so that maybe we could retire the phrase “sparkly vampire” 😆 And Dean could be shown as having made a dubious decision to trust him. I like Ty/Benny but It might appease some fans and I don’t hate the idea. I don’t agree at all with the perception that Dean is ALWAYS right and Sam is ALWAYS wrong but having this happen would be fine with me and there were some unanswered questions re: Benny anyway.
I would like to see some of the contentious things from last season revisited and explained though I have little hope that might happen.
eilf, I actually knew that line came from a interview with Jared not from the show. But I’m sorry I still think that they left what Sam thought of Dean’s disappearance somewhat ambiguous. Maybe it did start with the interviews (though I tried to stay away from spoilers last summer) but they weren’t saying that Sam is convinced that Dean is dead. They said he didn’t know and didn’t LOOK. If he was convinced Dean was dead what would he be looking for. Why wasn’t his retort to Dean every time he threw that in is face, “I thought you were dead. Why would I look for you.” Instead it’s that he was still the same guy. What the Hell does that even mean? They left the impression that he just gave up hunting and Dean right along with it. Like in SC, he says I told why I didn’t look for you.
I’ll admit to being partly convinced something was up due to Jared’s performance too. Compare his reaction in Lazarus Rising and WNtTBK. If Sam was absolutely convinced Dean was dead, why was his reaction so subdued. It was more like he’d just ran into him and was surprised he was back rather than overwhelmingly shocked and surprised that Dean was actually alive. And later in the episode he says Dean disappeared not died.
And then there is the whole problem with why Sam would be convinced that Dean was dead without bothering to look or try to find out for sure. There wasn’t blood and guts everywhere. He just disappeared. He disappeared on a fairly regular basis with Cas. And Cas disappeared too and he was crazy. For all Sam knew he could have taken them to a jungle somewhere to look at monkeys. Who knows. By just not having Sam say “I looked but I found no trace. After enough time had passed I figured you had to be dead.” One line would have completely changed the dynamic of the situation. Suddenly he didn’t do everything he could for his brother. He just ran. If they’d just shown SOMETHING anything of that time, maybe this whole thing would be easier to swallow. But left the way it is, is just shoddy writing.
I do think part of it is my fault, I gave them the benefit of the doubt and assumed some of the things were actually leading somewhere, but it turned out that it was just bad writing. Like I assumed since they were being so cagey with Sam’s responses that there was something more going on.
I’m assumed when he was talking about living in a dreamworld that it was foreshadowing something, but if it was we don’t know what. Because besides the birthday cake scene, his life looked pretty mundane, but that was his dream-like world. I guess that’s possible but it seems like a stretch.
And I assumed by not having Sam defend himself, that it was hinting that something more was up. I kept thinking why would they constantly throw it in Sam’s face if they aren’t going somewhere with it. I guess it could be just for the Sacrifice scene but it wasn’t really needed for that. Sam has made plenty of mistakes in the past to use. Or if they wanted a fresh thing, they could have had him do something that wasn’t so destructive to the character.
Anyway I’m repeating myself and rambling to boot so I think I should stop now.
I think Dean can be wrong but I think the difference is that Sam gets to be wrong over the ‘big’ things as well as it seems personal life decisions. And then the writers bring them back up .
So it makes it look wether thats the intention or not that Sam’s ‘sins’ are permanent and so neither Dean and the fandom move on from them. It also perpetuates the idea from some fans that Sam so how hasnt atoned from what actions he took when clearly he has.
It wasnt that a disliked Benny to horrible degree but I found the writing for the whole thing too sycophantic because he was associated with Dean but that is just me.
replying to 299 Kelly.
X
Hi, I’ve just been reading the latest comments on my E-mail feed and I just wanted to say I agree completely with your doubts on Sam not looking.
You used the right word ‘ambiguous’. That’s exactly what it was.You summed up all the inconsistencies perfectly.
X
Your brother whom you love more than life itself disappears and you don’t wonder what’s happened to him? In the lab there’s no body , no blood; Dean is clearly not ‘dead’ as humans understand it, therefore something out of the ordinary has happpened to him.
X
There is no way that Sam’s reaction of just going away and not even trying to find out what happened to Dean is believable. None, because Sam wa perfectly fine before-hand.
X
This episode was written by Carver himself and I can’t understand what he was trying to do. What were we supposed to think?
X
Then again the way Sam was practically not-surprised to see Dean in the cabin.was so strange too.
Now I get that Sammy may have left Amelia and gone to Rufus’ cabin because he had nowhere else to go after breaking off with her, but he should have had a different reaction when he saw the brother he’though dead’ alive and kicking and attacking him as he entered the cabin.
X
Then if Sam had been so upset at Dean’s death in the lab why wasn’t he ecstatic to see him back? His attitude in the cabin was that of a man sort of miffed to see Dean back,an attitude that strides again with how Sam would feel.
X
The whole thing makes no sense and that’s why everyone expected a supernatural explanation, which we never got.
X
I have no idea why Carver decided that writing this plot for Sam was a good idea except to give Dean a contrived reason to fight with his brother and lean towards Benny so initiating the whole brother rift.
X
Sam was completely OOC. He wasn’t the same Sam we had at the end of season seven. Carver just ‘carved up’ the character of Sammy without a second thought and threw the pieces to the wind.
Just a quick FYI for spoiler phones… the new Season 9 episode 1 clip all 21 seconds of it is massively spoilerlicious (and filled with such awesome goodness!) so you may want to avoid it like the plague.
Crap.. that should be spoiler phobes damned auto correct!
[quote]Hi amyh (#275). I am sorry but I am going to have to respectfully, totally, even vehemently disagree here. I do not see that the writers had any intention of “using Dean to vilify Sam’s humanity”. I am sorry if you do, but I will go so far as to say that this is your interpretation of things and not fact. I don’t believe it for a second. You are assuming that all the writers hate Sam and are looking for ways to make him look bad and that everything Dean does is right and good. I just don’t see this as accurate at all. I think that this is what Tim was alluding to in her post (Tim can correct me if I am wrong). There is an assumption among THE FANS (and only certain fans) that what Dean does and says is right not matter what and that Sam is always wrong. I am sorry but IMO this view is not supported in the writing or on the screen. Many of Dean’s actions this season have been wrong and many of Sam’s have been right, but not all the time, that would be unrealistic. I agree with Tim. It’s clear that Dean disapproved of Sam’s actions regarding the now infamous ‘not looking’ but its also clear that Sam disapproved of Deans actions regarding Benny. Was either one more right or wrong? Both were shown to be in error of their judgement; Sam was shown to be in error regarding Benny and Dean was shown to be in error about how much Dean means to Sam in Sacrifice. If Dean learned anything in that episode it is that his words and actions had hurt Sam terribly and had pushed him to the edge and that he DID matter to Sam, maybe too much; enough for Sam to sacrifice himself for Dean’s desires to close the gates of hell. It’s all quite balanced if you ask me.[/quote]
E and Kelly (and others)
I owe you guys all an apology. I’ve been so emotional lately and so upset by S8 I simply haven’t been very good at keeping my emotions in check and they’ve been all over the place.
I got myself soo worked up yesterday that I made myself physically sick at work last night. It made me realise I need to calm done and really think about how to state my thoughts without the emotional craziness. And remember this is a tv show. And I still love it and Sam and Dean even if I think the writers dropped a hella lot of balls.
[quote]There are several deleted scenes from S8 that would have changed the way some fans would have viewed Dean’s and Sam’s choices. Specifically in TD and S. I had heard early in the year about a scene between the brothers where Sam explained his year to Dean. If that is true it would have been nice for the fans to have seen that. Just like Jim Michaels has stated that it was Don outside Sam and Amelia’s house and that was explained, sometimes I think the show runners assume that certain scenes were aired or explained so no further explanation is needed. Maybe someone needs to review the episode more carefully to make sure everything that needs to be said is there.
Having said that I also think that we as fans were never supposed to doubt the brothers love for each other. Just their seemingly never ending trust issues.[/quote]
I think it would be difficult for the fans NOT to question the brothers love for each other when we the fans take the lead from the brothers. if the brothers are questioning the other brothes love on a daily and yearly basis how can the FANS NOT question it?
It feels like a Catch 22.
amyh…And year after year no matter how far apart they get from each other (and they have been pretty far apart) they always come back together. Usually with a stronger bond than ever before. If that trust is ever broken with the fans than the show would be over.
Amyh, as someone who has had issues with some of your comments I want to say how sorry I am that you are so upset with the show that is has made you sick. Please don’t let a TV show affect you like that. Passion is good, letting it affect you physically is not. This is only a group of actors interpreting the writing as best they can. It is a great testament to Jared and Jensen that they can make us love them so much and that they can make us so angry all at the same time! Though we all tend to talk about them and can be as protective of them as if they are family, they are not real. You know that. 🙂
I hope this is in the right thread – I got logged off while writing
[quote]
Another would be that Benny does something “bad” so that maybe we could retire the phrase “sparkly vampire” 😆 And Dean could be shown as having made a dubious decision to trust him. I like Ty/Benny but It might appease some fans and I don’t hate the idea. I don’t agree at all with the perception that Dean is ALWAYS right and Sam is ALWAYS wrong but having this happen would be fine with me and there were some unanswered questions re: Benny anyway.
I would like to see some of the contentious things from last season revisited and explained though I have little hope that might happen.[/quote]
Leah have you seen the Dean / Benny cut scene from Taxi Driver? I tell you it improves my mindset about a lot of the season (it is quite easy to make me happy TBH …). I know it isn’t officially canon but it doesn’t actually contradict anything in canon while making Benny more believable (and I have to say makes me like him more – which is weird under the circumstances) and as far as I am concerned removes the ‘sparkly vampire’ tag.
Most importantly it also vindicates Sam and his hunter instincts. And since they filmed it, at some point they must have considered making the balance between the brothers’ instincts – with regard to hunting and Benny (and supernatural creatures and their basic nature) – more equal … but then, well, who knows why they (PTB) make the decisions they do …
amyh you should see it, since you were saying that they trashed Sam’s hunter instincts by making Benny an innocent (and despite my arguments all summer about how I feel about Sam and Benny I can see why people might see it that way)! The clip will either make you happy or cause you outrage that it was taken out of the episode – sorry 😀
Here, have a link, it is 1.11 into the video [url]http://www.dailymotion.com/spnbitch#video=x14kpmn[/url]
I imagine this upload might not be online for long …
Hey eilf, thanks! Nothing happened after the commercial but I tried a few things and finally got a fractured version so I got the gist. I had seen a few mentions but I never saw a link.
Quoting amyh
“I got myself soo worked up yesterday that I made myself physically sick at work last night. It made me realise I need to calm done and really think about how to state my thoughts without the emotional craziness. And remember this is a tv show. And I still love it and Sam and Dean even if I think the writers dropped a hella lot of balls.”
My goodness amyh, please don’t make yourself sick! I love this show more than is probably reasonable, and hate to miss it, but I decided long ago that real life is more important. A long running TV show will never be able to round up all the loose ends, it’s just too difficult; so there will always be these annoying gaps and writers who go in strange directions. Try to find what you love about the show and enjoy it and let the rest go (hard to do! I am STILL harping the ‘not looking’ thing even months later!). Maybe it helps to know that even though the brothers have their troubles with one another and the writers often try our patience with some of their choices that the J’s are as fond of one another now as they were 9 years ago; their special friendship hasn’t faltered one bit, and they are every bit the brothers that Sam and Dean are.
#308, eilf hey,
That link you left here leads to a site with 12 (!!!!!) deleted scenes!! Yeah!! Great fun watching them all. I can see why some were taken out, many of them are not crucial to the plot development, but there were several that I with that they had left in, and the Benny/Dean one I REALLY wish they had left in. It was all of about 12 seconds lone, I think they could have left it. 🙁
I also wish that they had left the Everyone Hates Hitler scene in just because it’s awesome and funny. I love perturbed Sam.
Supposedly there is also a scene between Henry and Sam floating around out there and most notoriously a supposedly cut brother scene. If they are out there I hope they surface soon. Thanks for the link!
[quote]#308, eilf hey,
That link you left here leads to a site with 12 (!!!!!) deleted scenes!! Yeah!! Great fun watching them all. I can see why some were taken out, many of them are not crucial to the plot development, but there were several that I with that they had left in, and the Benny/Dean one I REALLY wish they had left in. It was all of about 12 seconds lone, I think they could have left it. 🙁
I also wish that they had left the Everyone Hates Hitler scene in just because it’s awesome and funny. I love perturbed Sam.
Supposedly there is also a scene between Henry and Sam floating around out there and most notoriously a supposedly cut brother scene. If they are out there I hope they surface soon. Thanks for the link![/quote]
Isn’t the Hitler scene hilarious? ‘No love without the gloves!’ – I can’t imagine why they left that line out …
Maybe it’s just because I wanted it to be the case so much but that Benny kinda-confession (all 12 seconds of it) REALLY makes me feel better about a fair amount of the season. If they had left that scene in also, Dean probably wouldn’t have used Benny in his speech in Sacrifice either – maybe said some other less-interpretable-as-an-accusation stuff (and no that isn’t a dig at Dean, the concept just doesn’t work for me no matter how I try to spin it in my head).
But the Benny confession oooh I love it!
I agree with you eilf; I love it that Sam’s hunter instincts weren’t totally out in left field here and that he had good reason to worry and be suspicious about Benny. It also lends credence to the theory that Dean didn’t really trust Benny either, and may have helped flesh out the reasons as to why Dean kept Benny a secret. Taking that small scene out was a bad cut IMHO. It’s amazing how much more depth those 12 seconds would added to things and made the flow of what often looked like OOC behavior from both sides look a little more rational.
The EHH scene was just comedy gold; I love a rankled and irritated Sam trying to hold his tongue. And on a purely shallow note, didn’t Jared look simply delicious? That sweater vest and his eyes looking so beautifully mossy blue green. Yum. 😳
[img]http://31.media.tumblr.com/da8d8fde34827c1a1bd903faf21c81ba/tumblr_mszceeNQ351s2t007o1_250.gif[/img]
Oh Yeah, and oddly I really liked the Bitten deleted scene. I think that the whole episode would have worked better if it had been more like this clip. The way it aired it was too much the kids with each other and their actual lives, but this clip showed the kids kind of investigating Sam and Dean, following them around and trying to figure out what they were up to. I found that pretty interesting, more so than what we got which was extended scenes of them in a coffee house, them all bonding and being kids, the boy and girl falling in love, the one guy testing out his strength etc… Sam and Dean are WAY more interesting and I like the outsider perspective, there just wasn’t enough of it.
It seems kind of weird to me that, really, there is probably so much film of each episode that you could probably construct 2 or 3 versions of it emphasizing different things in each, which must make the editing pretty crucial. Anyhoo, thanks for the link!
#314….. OOOOOH! eilf thanks!!! He’s all glowey and pretty! 😀
You’re welcome 😀
Aren’t we due some regularly scheduled bitterness around now? This thread is not as well named as it used to be …
No, on second thoughts, let’s not..
Sorry about the lack of bitterness, with all these deleted scenes and previews I am actually pretty bitter free at the moment!
E and eilf, I finally got a chance to find the deleted scenes and I have to agree that several REALLY add to the episode. Most of the time I can see why the deleted scenes were the ones cut due to time, but a lot of these really added a lot to the episode. They should have cut something else. I loved the scene between Sam and Henry that is EXACTLY what the scene cried out for. Why wouldn’t Sam talk to his grandfather, especially since he wasn’t the one angry with him?
I agree the scene with Benny was fantastic. They should have NEVER cut that. I don’t know why they did. It helped you understand why he would make the decision so easily and gave credence to Sam’s instincts.
I also agree Bitten would have worked more for me if we’d got a few more scene like that one. I didn’t give a crap about what those annoying kids were going through, but an outsiders perspective would have been great. Though there have been instances were I’ve have cared about characters after a very brief time period but this wasn’t one of those times at all. Random thought-this that made me think of a show that was spectacular making you care about the victim in a brief opening scene-Monk. I can remember several instances where I would tear up at a person, who had just been introduced, dying. Not really SPN’s forte though. Sorry I know that was random.
E, I can’t decide whether I’m happy or outrage. I’m definitely happier with several of the writers and pissed at whoever decide to take the scenes out. And despite how much I loved them and the season promo and the first episode promo, it doesn’t really fix my problem with the season.
My sister was just telling me tonight that she wanted to get a plaque of the quote “The key to happiness is a short memory.” She has been blessed with one. I was talking about these deleted scenes and why they were such an improvement over the original. And she starred at me blankly. She didn’t care about any of the episodes involved and so didn’t remember. And she HATED Bitten, I’m mean seriously hated. But she had completely forgotten it until I reminded her. She remembers, in her words, the cartoon one, the larping one and the golem one. But has completely disregarded all other episode because she didn’t really like them. WHY CAN’T I BE LIKE THAT? When it comes to things I love I can tell you years later in great detail what they did that was bad. Like S1 of the X-Files, I was so completely pissed that in the episode Fire, Mulder ran up to get the kids instead of Scully who was standing RIGHT THERE and hadn’t become paralyzed with fear of fire not 10 minutes before in the episode. AARGH! That was so incredibly stupid and so easily fixable that I still can’t watch that episode without becoming completely irritated, not anywhere near the level of Mulder leaving Scully or them not explaining Sam not looking for Dean, but still that was 20 years ago and I have watched that episodes maybe 3 times and I still remember and it still bugs me. (What is wrong with me?) Anyway, my rambling point is I don’t see this becoming okay for me any time soon unless they fix or I’m blessed with a bad memory.
See how I brought the bitterness back the page, no need to thank me. 🙂
Isle of Skye, I agree with your agreeing with me :D. Carver’s thought process for many of the things is just a mystery to me. My fear is that he had a few things he wanted from the season and he just maneuvered events, canon and characterization to get the result he wanted. I’m just not okay with that.
amyh, I have a crap job right now and my house is literally falling apart I think and I have zero money to fix it and I’m wondering if I’m going to have enough for my mortgage. So this was my escape-distraction. But several times lately it has become just additional source of stress. So I feel ya. That’s why I’ve had to take lots of steps back lately until I feel I’m reacting more rationally rather than emotionally. Then I start debating and get sucked in and all that emotion spews out, especially if I’m stressed or tired, which is a lot lately. So I force myself to take another break. Remind myself its good to love things, it’s not good to let them take over.
Hi Kelly- I, for one, am always glad to see it when you are around. I very much identify with your last paragraph. I’ve taken a few breaks myself. I agree it is sometimes needed to remind myself to not take it all so seriously. Being tired, stressed, or ill makes easier to get caught up in it all (for me). Perspective is a good thing. It is, after all, only a TV show. One we are all passionate about.
.Leah have you seen the Dean / Benny cut scene from Taxi Driver? I tell you it improves my mindset about a lot of the season (it is quite easy to make me happy TBH …). I know it isn’t officially canon but it doesn’t actually contradict anything in canon while making Benny more believable (and I have to say makes me like him more – which is weird under the circumstances) and as far as I am concerned removes the ‘sparkly vampire’ tag.
Most importantly it also vindicates Sam and his hunter instincts. And since they filmed it, at some point they must have considered making the balance between the brothers’ instincts – with regard to hunting and Benny (and supernatural creatures and their basic nature) – more equal … but then, well, who knows why they (PTB) make the decisions they do …
amyh you should see it, since you were saying that they trashed Sam’s hunter instincts by making Benny an innocent (and despite my arguments all summer about how I feel about Sam and Benny I can see why people might see it that way)! The clip will either make you happy or cause you outrage that it was taken out of the episode – sorry 😀
Here, have a link, it is 1.11 into the video http://www.dailymotion.com/spnbitch#video=x14kpmn
I imagine this upload might not be online for long …[/quote]
Eilf, I think i’ll skip the deleted scenes. Usually I love seeing them adn figuring out how and why the decsion was made to cut them. I dont want to be outraged. been there, done that….and the Darkside isn’t a fun place to visit. Though I hear Jim Micheals is supposed to be at a future convention. Maybe if someone goes they can ask how they make the descion to cut certain scenes…and is it simply the editor who decides what to keep or cut or does the director/writers have imput? And do the PTB actually SEE the finished product?
I think as a fan i might fear the answer but as a writer ( 😀 :-* ) i find the process fascinating.
Carefully re-watched the cartoon episode Hunteri Heroici for analysis for an articled I am writing. Worth a re watch. There is much explained about Sam’s life in Kermit, Texas and why he did not look for Dean. It was carefully woven into the episode. If too much info given it would be soap opera and time limits on a show about hunting things. Remember Sam’s state of mind at the end of season 7, and then Dean blasts out and there are not clues for Sam to follow. It does not explain everything, but the careful listen of the dialogue let’s me forgive much.
The deleted scenes also explain that Sam was correct not to see Benny as cured. Again, Dean’s perception. So not bitter, just cannot wait for October premiere.
Deleted scenes are deleted scenes. If we were meant to see them as part of the story we would do. The Dean and Benny scene while in a sense was interesting to see ,it was clearly deleted for a reason .
Seeing that scene now is like bolting the stable door after the horse bolted it is both frustrating and abit pointless.There were several deleted scenes concenring Sam abit like that.
Sharon….I agree, most of the deleted scenes would have greatly altered the way the story was told. The only deleted scene I would have like to have seen was the one between Sam and Crowley. It really showed how deteriorated Sam had gotten and how human Crowley had gotten. Plus it was a powerful scene that didn’t alter the story as it was originally told.
Sharon (#323) and Cheryl42 (#324); I disagree slightly with this. If the PTB felt that the deleted scens had absoltuly no merit or value or were in any way a waste of time then they woudln’t be included on the DVD’s for tens of thousands of fans to incorporate into their concept of canon. I feel like deleted scenes that are kept (as in not released into the ether) are kept for a reason; sort of like a “director’s cut” something that they were forced to cut due to time constraints but really wanted to leave in or have the fans see and acknowledge.
E…good point. I would like to see entire directors cut episodes. That is done with movies. One movie I know of is “Kingdom of Heaven”. The directors cut very much altered one character’s choices and completely changed the story (for the better imo). The deleted scene in TD would have greatly altered the storyline for Sam, Dean and Benny. I don’t know if it would have been a better story or not but it sure would have changed a lot of the fans point of view.
[quote]
These scenes that potentially (again, going only on hearsay) improve the fans understanding and appreciation of what happened in S8 reinforce my belief that the writers get slammed a bit more often than they deserve. They wrote that material. They didn’t skip it… think it unimportant… phone it in. They wrote it. But they had no power over what the directors and/or showrunners kept or cut. Now, maybe they did write these episodes too long. But you also don’t know whether the directors went for lingering… watch the lone teardrop fall kinds of shots the writer didn’t anticipate either.[/quote]
Racestaffer, I agree with your post and particularly this bit. While I agree that there is a strong flavor of whichever writer(s) for whichever episode from what you hear it is never on just their shoulders because most of the writers will have had input into the final story. Sometimes this will result in a homogeneous and nuanced episode and sometimes it will just look like the kitchen sink has been thrown in too. And it isn’t like they have endless time to do it either, don’t the writers circle round every 5-6 episodes? That’s about 2 month’s worth of real time, stuff falls through the cracks. And they are all working on several episodes at a time.
And while it is better for an episode to be slightly too long than too short (unless you can get Jensen to act out on the roof of the car, in which case go for it), the show doesn’t have ANY say in how much time they have – that is on the network.
Having said that they say that they don’t film too much stuff that goes to waste so clearly by the time a scene is filmed the story is in it’s final form and they clearly intended to put it in. So if it was meant to be part of the story why take it out?
1)Because it is repetitive – I think the files scene is like that. Yes we know Dean is leaning too hard on a fragile Sam who is looking for death-by-trial, and that Dean doesn’t realise it. We also know that Sam is looking for clues from Dean as to what he should do. So this scene is not necessary and reflects excessively on Dean. (Personally I am not absolutely sure what this scene is trying to tell us, I find it confusing, I am just repeating other people’s interpretations).
2) Because the writers think that we know the characters and supernatural creatures well enough to not need telling what they are likely to do. – The Benny and Dean scene. It has no purpose with regard to Dean asking Benny to die, they have already agreed that. We as viewers know that Benny is a vampire and if like every other vampire he will fall off the wagon eventually. We also know that Dean must have his suspicions about what Benny has been up to but wants to be loyal to his friend. And we know that Sam is a WInchester and therefore a really good hunter, and has never previously shown a propensity to be ‘jealous of Dean’s friends’.
In this they misjudged, as it turns out, and a large proportion of the fandom chose to look at it almost completely from the point of view of jealousy on Sam’s part. Oh well. Hence the scene on the DVDs – those of us who have argued for Sam-as-hunter feel vindicated and everyone else can just ignore it. It’s a win-win situation 🙂
3) Tonal? Maybe? Dean’s prayer to Cas and Sam’s interactions with the librarian were both funny but too long I suppose (the librarian one definitely is)
4) The episode is too long – most of the rest of the clips.
5) Brainfarts on the part of the editors – Sam’s conversation with Grandpa Winchester cut after 12 episodes of Sam saying practically nothing / being interrupted before he finshes a sentence. It was so obvious that there should have been a conversation there it was ridiculous! And, oh, the scene with Crowley in the church …that one I have watched nearly as much as the episode itself.
Anyway I am rambling, my point is that while, no these clips are not canon, they are not as alien to the story as tie-in novels or fanfics. And also TV shows do not have the luxury of variable length like movies so it is probably actively painful for them to have to cut scenes. And it is impossible for us to know why they cut the ones they did. None of these contradict anything we actually know in-story and they appear to have been included in the DVDs to clear up some of the lingering unhappiness.
For my money best set of deleted scenes ever and worth the price of DVD admission, if I actually had the money for it 😀
[quote]
When it comes to things I love I can tell you years later in great detail what they did that was bad. Like S1 of the X-Files, I was so completely pissed that in the episode Fire, Mulder ran up to get the kids instead of Scully who was standing RIGHT THERE and hadn’t become paralyzed with fear of fire not 10 minutes before in the episode. AARGH! That was so incredibly stupid and so easily fixable that I still can’t watch that episode without becoming completely irritated, not anywhere near the level of Mulder leaving Scully or them not explaining Sam not looking for Dean, but still that was 20 years ago and I have watched that episodes maybe 3 times and I still remember and it still bugs me. (What is wrong with me?) Anyway, my rambling point is I don’t see this becoming okay for me any time soon unless they fix or I’m blessed with a bad memory.
[/quote]
Poor Kelly 😀 You need to let go of the X-files issues! (SPN season 8 ones can linger for a while, they are lingering for me too …. )
Anyway what I wanted to say was, the thing about the X-files episode ‘Fire’ is it is an absolutely awful episode! It is dumb from start to finish. David Duchovney hated it because the ‘Mulder is afraid of fire’ idea was trite and had no runup – it was just a plot point and as far as I remember was never mentioned again. I agree with you about Scully needing to be rescued / not being proactive thing too.
It began to grate on me as the series wore on. And I LOVED the X-files. I lived in a guesthouse for a few years and I was banished to the kitchen if I wanted to watch it (along with my landlady’s husband) and we would sit in the corner of the kitchen watching it on a tiny little (ancient) tv that you had to tune by turning a knob. My landlady would come in occasionally and say ‘are you watching that awful thing again? There’s tennis on in the lounge”. Hah as if anything (especially tennis) could compete!
Ok, rambling, TMI, sorry 🙂
eilf, I so happy that someone else is doing the off-topic rambling. 😀 I looked at it today and realized even for me it was bad. I blame the all-nighter I had to pull with the related caffeine and chocolate.
Fire [i]was[/i] bad, it was so contrived in places (Yeah the phobia was never mentioned again). But most of the things, I can write off as growing pains of new show. Most shows that are trying something new have them. Trying to find their own voice while pleasing the network. Supernatural definitely did IMO. But that scene in particular was just idiotic and so easily fixable so they wanted to redeem himself from earlier in the episode by having him save the kids this time. So don’t have Scully and the parents standing right next to him when they scream. Fixed. Though I would of course still roll my eyes about how he’s paralyzed with fear days before but not is able to do it. This was definitely S1 SPN the did better than S1 X-Files. Dean’s fear of flying wasn’t so completely over the top, so his fighting through seemed perfectly reasonable.
And I’m not letting my issues with Fire go. I’M NOT. AND YOU CAN’T MAKE ME. 😛 😀 But it never kept me from enjoying anything but that one episode. So I don’t watch that episode. Problem solved. But the Sam thing permeates the whole season and probably into the next one and really if you think about it too much it effects the whole series. And I ALWAYS think about things to much. So I feel like I’m screwed.
My sister refused to watch it for years (she was the same with SPN) and just like with SPN her daughter was watching it and she got sucked in. But unlike with SPN, she ended up only actually watching like half the episodes. Either they were to scary or a kid died or too gross….there’s only 2 she’s ever rewatched Bad Blood and Arcadia, I think. But she really got into SPN. I eventually converted pretty much my entire family. But it took awhile. Even though I’m the one who told them about almost all their favorite shows. You’d think people would start listening to me.
About the deleted Benny scene though, I’ve thought about it, and I really think the reason that they left that out was to make it easier to bring him back if they wanted. He got pretty popular, but it would be much harder for Dean and Sam to let him go again if he came back if he’d been feeding. So I think they hedged and made the safe choice. I still don’t think it was the right one though. That is all kinds of drama that is ripe for mining if he became topside again. Would Dean to the “right” thing and kill him after he saved Sam? How would Sam react since he did rescue him? Shades of Amy Pond? Not that they still couldn’t, it could just be “revealed” he feed before later. But I still prefer the deleted version.
I loved many of the others but the only other one that bugs me is the Sam and Henry. Yes the episode can survive without it, but it just looked awkward and weird and it’s such a nice scene.
Usually scenes are deleted b/c they are redundant and not needed for the flow( the viewer can usually fill in the blankds) of the story or the script runs long for the network. After all the network is selling ad time for profit. Out of all of the scenes deleted, the implication that Benny was drinking again IMO, would have vindicated Sam’s instincts as a hunter( I never bought the jealousy thread-it isn’t who Sam is) and further justifies Dean killing Benny. Perception was the theme.
[quote]Usually scenes are deleted b/c they are redundant and not needed for the flow( the viewer can usually fill in the blankds) of the story or the script runs long for the network. After all the network is selling ad time for profit. Out of all of the scenes deleted, the implication that Benny was drinking again IMO, would have vindicated Sam’s instincts as a hunter( I never bought the jealousy thread-it isn’t who Sam is) and further justifies Dean killing Benny. Perception was the theme.[/quote]
You know I think that scene is supposed to be after the line where Benny makes it clear he doesn’t want to come back. I think Dean is trying to clarify in his head why that might be so and whether he should accept Benny’s own decision about BENNY’S life (I love how we – and the writers – tend to ignore the fact that Benny is an independent creature with rights, and not just a pawn between the Winchesters). Subconsciously Dean will have known the truth all along (because he is a damn good hunter) and not wanted to believe it – it is really sad that they left the scene out – it really does clarify (and is sympathetic to) why Dean kept Benny a secret from Sam.
For me I could wish the writers would make Dean a little less black-and-white. I would be able to identify better with his self-worth issues if his standards for others weren’t so impossible for them to attain, I would also love for the writers to be less inclined to hide Sam’s decisions in shades of grey.
The promo for next season is interesting! There is one ‘gesture’ of Dean’s (you know the one 😀 ) in it which leads me to suspect Sam has said something to him he doesn’t want to hear – can’t wait to find out what the fallout from Sacrifice is going to be!
About those deleted scenes. Yes, I believe what is left out can change A LOT about how I feel about a character. I don’t know who decides the cut, but it is not new. I remember a cut scene in season 01, in the Home episode. The boys were learning from John’s friend in the garage where he worked what happened after Mary died. And he said John got obsessed by some strange stuff, so, he told him he was going to call child care, or something on him. That’s when John decided to leave. And that, for me is HUGE. It tells a lot of how John was scared to lose his children. It says a lot about John’s motives.
But it was left out. Why, I don’t know. Do I have the right to judge John based on this new understanding of him? Well, I can’t help it. I was filmed and shown to the public, after all.
[quote]Usually scenes are deleted b/c they are redundant and not needed for the flow( the viewer can usually fill in the blankds) of the story or the script runs long for the network. After all the network is selling ad time for profit. Out of all of the scenes deleted, the implication that Benny was drinking again IMO, would have vindicated Sam’s instincts as a hunter( I never bought the jealousy thread-it isn’t who Sam is) and further justifies Dean killing Benny. Perception was the theme.[/quote]
I geuss this is my issue. Writers delete/add/alter scenes so a story is told a certain way…so the reader/viewer sees a story in a certain light. It FEELS as if the writers purposely decided to make Benny as innocent and “sparkely” as possible so vuewers will have the most sympathy/empathy for him. And its obvious just by watching the episodes as they unfolded…as the writers INTENDED they did it as the expense of Sam and HIS instincts as a hunter.
I think….they COULD have shown both…Sam having good instincts and Benny at a dire crossroads in his nature. But Sam WAS thrown under a bus for not ONLY Benny but the Dean and Benny relationship.
Remember there are millions of fans whose only knowlege of the show are the episodes that are shown on their TV screen each week. They dont go online and many dont buy DVDs.
and whats worrysome is what about the fans who started watching this season? Their first foray into Supernatudal is Dean telling Sam he isn’t good enough, that Benny is better and has always been better brother then Sam. Weather or not Sam imploded from grief and everything he’s experienced will be dismissed. Why? Because Dean dismissed it. Bobby dismissed it. Sparkley and cutsey Meg dismissed it. New viewers will wonder why Dean and Sam are together instead of with that awesome Benny. And in that last five minutes of episode 23 when Sam finally gets his much needed POV….new viewers wont care about him or his grief because Dean didn’t care…they’ve already imprinted on Dean. And they will care far more about Dean havign to kill his good friend Benny to save Sam…the guy who ‘left his brother to die for a girl.”
Its a fact that people in real life form their first impressions of others within the first few minutes of meeting them.
Then writers refused to show Sam’s love and grief for dean. they refused to show Sam having good hunting instincts. And if they never saw a previous