Is Supernatural Season Nine Divine?
How have you liked Supernatural’s season 9 so far? Has it been “Divine” as promised? We are just past the mid-point in the season, with 13 episodes behind us and 10 episodes ahead of us. Since there are no new shows to discuss during this three week hiatus, it is the perfect time to reflect on the season thus far. So what has happened this year?
Sam was possessed by an angel,
…and Castiel learned what it takes to live as a human.
We lost Kevin to a desperate, treacherous, confused angel,
…and Dean was tortured by his decisions and their consequences.
Crowley is free once again and searching for an ancient weapon,
…while the demons are in chaos wondering whether to follow him or Abaddon.
Castiel regained heavenly grace,
…but the angels are ruthlessly at war with each other.
Dean took on the Mark of Cain to defeat Abaddon,
….while Cas and Sam try to find Gadreel and Metatron.
We had visits from old friends like Charlie,
… and Garth,
…but, our boys are more alone than ever. They have lost faith in each other. They both feel betrayed, hurt and defeated.
Sound right? Did I miss anything? To honestly assess the season, though, we really need to look at the first half of the season almost as a completely separate story from the second half of the season. Only the angel and demon wars and the lead characters in each drama unite the two halves. The first nine episodes of the season were primarily about Sam’s possession by an angel, Dean’s secret, Castiel’s humanity, Kevin’s translation attempts and Crowley being held captive. The brothers got along and worked together. Sam felt good and found his home. Dean was healing his brother and was able to save Charlie and Castiel. Cas was learning how to find peace and a place in the world. The boys were reminded of a victory every time they visited their dungeon.
The first half of the season felt hopeful. It was about trust and making your way into the unknown. We saw how when young Dean and newly human Cas were vulnerable, they were given shelter and peace for a few weeks by strangers. Kevin found refuge in the bunker and trusted Dean that it was the safest place for him. Dean trusted an unfamiliar angel with his brother’s life. People lived in hope, and the risks that our heroes took were sometimes rewarded. Sam was healed. Cas learned how to take care of himself. Charlie found a new friend and a new quest.
There was always an undercurrent of deceit, though, and what happens when trust is betrayed. Hunters were tortured into betraying friends. Cas was betrayed by both people and angels he thought were safe and trustworthy. Repenters were betrayed by their spiritual leader. People who believed in angels were betrayed when their bodies were used for war instead of peace. So the groundwork was slowly being laid for the ultimate betrayal… Dean was betrayed by Gadreel. This final betrayal set up what was to come next.
The second half of the season began by completely reversing everyone’s circumstances. Sam and Crowley are both free. Dean is no longer keeping secrets from those he loves. Cas is an angel again. Kevin is gone. Instead of being reunited by confessions of faith, the brothers aren’t…well, brothers right now. The season has an entirely different feel to it. When the show returned from the mid-season break, the atmosphere had switched from hopeful to almost despondent. Sam feels deeply betrayed by the one person he loved the most. Everything went wrong for Dean and he is withdrawn, drinking again, and under the curse of some mysterious mark. Gadreel, who had been so full of promise and hope for his own redemption, is being mercilessly manipulated by the most deceitful angel of them all, Metatron. Everyone is dealing with the consequences of misplaced trust. Even Garth suffered from trusting his new family too quickly and too completely. Reminiscent of season 6, this dramatic mid-season shift involved Sam regaining his “soul”. His own values, memories, thoughts and feelings are once again controlling his actions but at a great cost.
So how do fans feel about season 9? Comments in the first half of the season in blogs, reviews and social media seemed to fairly assess the relative merits of each show. People were either proud of how Supernatural was reinventing itself, or angry at the rehash of so many prior seasons, based largely on whether they were excited or infuriated by Sam’s possession. The beginning of the second half of the season hasn’t been as upbeat, though. While many fans understand or even welcome what is happening to the brother’s relationship, I think it is safe to say that no one is enjoying the cathartic reconstruction of their bond. It is difficult to watch Dean and Sam’s pain, disappointment and separation. The second half of the season was also launched by the death of a very popular character, Kevin. Instinctively, emotionally and intellectually, fans are reacting to the negativity of the last few episodes. Fandom entered this mini-hiatus rather depressed, and the fighting started about who was the most to blame – Sam, Dean or the writers of the series.
Besides this anecdotal evidence and our own feelings about the quality of season 9, we can actually look at hard numbers to assess fans’ reactions to the season. Ratings for the season were up over prior years. This year the show was watched by an average of 2.37 million viewers, up approximately 13% from last year (based on the numbers reported on the WFB Ratings page). The CW is enjoying its best Tuesday night viewership ever.
We can also look at poll numbers to objectively measure fans’ reactions to the season. As you may know, The Winchester Family Business polls its readers each week to gauge their opinion of the episodes. Admittedly, the criteria for voting is anything but scientific. Voters are asked to rate each show on a scale of 1 to 10, with each score corresponding to a statement that reflects the voters’ reaction to one or more events in the episode. So the choices are very subjective. While a fan may have wanted to give the episode a rating of 8, the phrase at 7 might have more closely represented their view so they chose 7 instead of 8. Only a small portion of fandom is represented in the polls as well. Typically between 350 and 600 people rate each episode. So this is far from a scientific sample size. Still, we can make the assumption that this input fairly represents the people who frequent the WFB site and are reading this article! So what do the numbers say about season 9*?
Overall, the polls have been fairly positive…until that last two episodes. So let’s put those two shows aside for a moment. If we look at the season before the brothers’ relationship crashed, an average of 75% of the WFB voters rated episodes as an 8, 9 or 10! These numbers are even skewed down somewhat by the third episode (“I’m No Angel”), which was rated poorly by a lot of people who objected to the inconsistency in the reaper lore.
The four most popular episodes were the dramatic resolutions of hiatus cliff hangers. Episodes 1 and 2 resolved the four month mystery of what happened after the trial failed and the angels fell out of the sky. These two shows received a whopping 86% and 90% high approval rating, respectively! Likewise, episodes 10 and 11 tied with an 84% approval rating, when they kicked off the second half of the season by concluding the dramatic events of Kevin’s death, Sam’s possession and Crowley’s bargain to trade help for freedom.
It is equally interesting to look at the faction of viewers who did not like each episode.
Again, putting aside the last two emotionally charged episodes, an average of only 5% of voters said they disliked a show (rated it 4 or lower). That is really a great testament to the strength of season 9! The three least popular shows (before the brother’s fight) as measured by ratings of 1 to 4 were:
“Rock and a Hard Place” (ep8) – 11% didn’t like it (6% rated a 1)
“I’m No Angel” (ep3) – 9% didn’t like it (4% rated a 1)
“Dog Dean Afternoon” (ep5) – 8% didn’t like it (5% rated a 1)
As noted before, the last two shows before the mini-hiatus (episodes 12 and 13) fell dramatically in the voting. 13% of voters were unhappy with “Sharp Teeth” (ep12) while 12 % of voters were unhappy with “The Purge” (ep13). “Sharp Teeth” also had the lowest approval rating of any episode this season. Only 37% of voters “really liked” it. Again, ratings reflected the statements associated with the scores, not judgments on the episode’s quality overall. Scores of 1 to 4 all reflected the brother’s fights, and confirmed that discord ruined a lot of people’s enjoyment of those episodes.
Even with the downturn from the last two episodes, the season still looks really good overall!
On average, 81% of the voters liked or loved the episodes so far! That’s pretty “divine”!
It is too early to tell if the season will continue with its downturn of upsetting stories or will rebound to its prior popularity. Here’s hoping that we quickly bounce back from the last two disappointing lapses in brotherly love!
So what do you think of season 9? Will it be among the best seasons ever or are we in for three more months of heartache? Now that Sam is himself again, did you enjoy the mystery and excitement of Sam/Ezekiel/Gadreel? How about Castiel? His detour as a human has ended. Was that side-trip also interesting and new or just tiresome? The season took a lot of chances introducing Oz, Dean as a dog, Garth as a wolf, and Cain as a misunderstood demon, plus it also killed off Kevin. How long before the episodes feel hopeful again? Balancing everything out and putting things in perspective, what is your overall opinion of season 9 now, before we know how it will all turn out?
*The analysis was based on percentages instead of raw numbers, which introduces a certain margin of error. For example, the sum of all votes for each week adds up to 96% instead of 100%. Also, the polls aren’t yet closed for the last three episodes. Episode 13 has only received about half the number of votes as the rest of the episodes, so only a very small number of people are represented so far.
New screencaps were courtesy of www.homeofthenutty.com
[quote]So the groundwork was slowly being laid for the ultimate betrayal… Dean was betrayed by Gadreel. [/quote]
IMHO Dean being “betrayed” by Gadreel is not the ultimate betrayal. Betrayal comes from someone you have reason to trust. Dean had known Gadreel for a hot minute when he decided to trust him. Did Gadreel’s actions have the largest ramifications? Sure. But Dean got taken in by a [s]conman[/s] conangel. There was a huge betrayal this season it started in episode one when Dean agreed that Gadreel could and should wipe Sam’s memory whenever it seemed like a good idea. It continued all the way through Kevin’s death and ended when Sam threw Gadreel out of his body. You see Dean as the victim here. I completely disagree.
I can not say how I will evaluate this season. So much will depend on where they go from here.
[quote]So the groundwork was slowly being laid for the ultimate betrayal… Dean was betrayed by Gadreel. [/quote]
IMHO Dean being “betrayed” by Gadreel is not the ultimate betrayal. Betrayal comes from someone you have reason to trust. Dean had known Gadreel for a hot minute when he decided to trust him. Did Gadreel’s actions have the largest ramifications? Sure. But Dean got taken in by a [s]conman[/s] conangel. There was a huge betrayal this season it started in episode one when Dean agreed that Gadreel could and should wipe Sam’s memory whenever it seemed like a good idea. It continued all the way through Kevin’s death and ended when Sam threw Gadreel out of his body. You see Dean as the victim here. I completely disagree.
I can not say how I will evaluate this season. So much will depend on where they go from here.
I think this is the best season since seasons 4 and 5. My mind just keeps on getting blown and even the weaker episodes are very entertaining. Just about the time I think that I have figured out where the writers are going with it, they go and sling a monkey wrench into the works and I end up sitting there with my mouth hanging open in shock and astonishment.
I am not going to pick this (or any) season apart episode by episode. That is not how I watch a tv series or a movie or read a book that I enjoy. I allow myself to become immersed in the story and let it carry me where it will. In the end the important questions are how did it make me feel, did I care about the characters, am I invested in their well-being and did the story really move me? In this case the answer is yes to all of the above. I have not felt this invested since some of the earlier seasons. That’s not to particularly knock some of the later ones, but some seasons are better than others. There is one more thing that I’d like to throw out there. At the end of First Born, Cas tells Sam ” We are going to need all the help we can get to deal with Metatron” and Crowley tells Dean ” We’re going to need all the help we can get to take care of Abbadon.” I can’t help but think that was a hint of where they could be heading this season. I always enjoy your comments Nightsky.
-Duplicate entry
I think this is the best season since seasons 4 and 5. My mind just keeps on getting blown and even the weaker episodes are very entertaining. Just about the time I think that I have figured out where the writers are going with it, they go and sling a monkey wrench into the works and I end up sitting there with my mouth hanging open in shock and astonishment.
I am not going to pick this (or any) season apart episode by episode. That is not how I watch a tv series or a movie or read a book that I enjoy. I allow myself to become immersed in the story and let it carry me where it will. In the end the important questions are how did it make me feel, did I care about the characters, am I invested in their well-being and did the story really move me? In this case the answer is yes to all of the above. I have not felt this invested since some of the earlier seasons. That’s not to particularly knock some of the later ones, but some seasons are better than others. There is one more thing that I’d like to throw out there. At the end of First Born, Cas tells Sam ” We are going to need all the help we can get to deal with Metatron” and Crowley tells Dean ” We’re going to need all the help we can get to take care of Abbadon.” I can’t help but think that was a hint of where they could be heading this season. I always enjoy your comments Nightsky.
-Duplicate entry
I am enjoying almost all of the episodes so far. Up until the last two episodes we all were waiting for the shoe to drop. And drop it did. I for one can’t wait to see how it all plays out. But I am kind of with percyowner on the Sam story. I hope it is handled well. The last thing I want to see is another Mentalist debacle.
AnnieE It’s funny that the Angel and the Demon know what’s best for our favorite dysfunctional brothers.
I am enjoying almost all of the episodes so far. Up until the last two episodes we all were waiting for the shoe to drop. And drop it did. I for one can’t wait to see how it all plays out. But I am kind of with percyowner on the Sam story. I hope it is handled well. The last thing I want to see is another Mentalist debacle.
AnnieE It’s funny that the Angel and the Demon know what’s best for our favorite dysfunctional brothers.
I am loving it so far. This season has been very compelling. I don’t put too much stock in each individual episodes as the season plays in real – time. Later when the season is over I’ll think through it based on which episodes I liked the most,but right now I’m just eager to find out what will happen next.
Unlike most people I’m not at all bummed out by the last two episodes. I’m excited by them and eager to find out where Carver is going with this as I very much trust where he’s taking us on this road. Season nine is turning out to be very good I think.
Now though, it’s time to get back to the myth arc.
I am loving it so far. This season has been very compelling. I don’t put too much stock in each individual episodes as the season plays in real – time. Later when the season is over I’ll think through it based on which episodes I liked the most,but right now I’m just eager to find out what will happen next.
Unlike most people I’m not at all bummed out by the last two episodes. I’m excited by them and eager to find out where Carver is going with this as I very much trust where he’s taking us on this road. Season nine is turning out to be very good I think.
Now though, it’s time to get back to the myth arc.
I too am loving this season. It has had much more consistent plotting than seasons 6 and 7 and the basic story lines, (angel possession, MoC, angel war, demon war) are all very compelling and co-existing nicely.
I am not sure why so many fans argue for the brothers to “resolve all of their issues and just get along already!” As Dean said last season “what show are you watching?” These brother’s have always had conflict with one another since day one. I may be in an extreme minority here, but I LIKE all of the conflict and drama….. that’s why I watch TV in the first place; why would I want to watch a TV show about well adjusted people who have no problems and get along with everyone? This show is about two brother’s and their complex and often difficult relationship, the monsters are just a bonus and not really what the show is about.
In my recollection there has only been one time in the 9 year history of the show where the brothers were basically on the same page, trusting one another, getting along and really had no conflict with one another: it was in season 6, right after Sam got his soul back. IMO, that part of the series was the MOST boring stretch of episodes ever, with snooze worthy eps like Like a Virgin, the dreadful Manequin 3: or the tepid Mommy Dearest (an exception can be made for the brilliant French Mistake; long live B.E.). As a matter of fact, the conflict got moved over to Castiel because there was so little going on between the brothers.
I still have my gripes (as you’ve all probably read multiple times on the threads 😳 ) but bitching aside, I am really happy with things and feel that this is the strongest the show has been plotted since seasons 4 and 5.
I too am loving this season. It has had much more consistent plotting than seasons 6 and 7 and the basic story lines, (angel possession, MoC, angel war, demon war) are all very compelling and co-existing nicely.
I am not sure why so many fans argue for the brothers to “resolve all of their issues and just get along already!” As Dean said last season “what show are you watching?” These brother’s have always had conflict with one another since day one. I may be in an extreme minority here, but I LIKE all of the conflict and drama….. that’s why I watch TV in the first place; why would I want to watch a TV show about well adjusted people who have no problems and get along with everyone? This show is about two brother’s and their complex and often difficult relationship, the monsters are just a bonus and not really what the show is about.
In my recollection there has only been one time in the 9 year history of the show where the brothers were basically on the same page, trusting one another, getting along and really had no conflict with one another: it was in season 6, right after Sam got his soul back. IMO, that part of the series was the MOST boring stretch of episodes ever, with snooze worthy eps like Like a Virgin, the dreadful Manequin 3: or the tepid Mommy Dearest (an exception can be made for the brilliant French Mistake; long live B.E.). As a matter of fact, the conflict got moved over to Castiel because there was so little going on between the brothers.
I still have my gripes (as you’ve all probably read multiple times on the threads 😳 ) but bitching aside, I am really happy with things and feel that this is the strongest the show has been plotted since seasons 4 and 5.
the answer to your question…yes….9 is divine…i would put it on a t shirt. 😀
we are so close to finally getting the brothers to really talk. there’s only one thing i find old about our boys. it’s the constant sweeping things under the rug. there’s nothing more frustrating then when dean shuts sam down or when sam caves in and keeps everything inside. it’s this inability to talk to ea. other that has caused most of the conflict between the boys. the result is misunderstanding and misperceptions about how ea. think the other thinks about them. and it’s this inability to talk to ea. other and get reassurance from ea. other that prolongs the belief ea. of them have that they are unworthy. how can they truly love ea. other if they can’t learn to love themselves? carver is finally starting to deal with this. through sam, carver is beginning to end the constant cycle of misperception. he’s not taking away the brotherly love, he’s not saying one wouldn’t die for the other, he’s slowly but surely opening up the path to communication and honesty between sam and dean. he’s finally reaching the point where they truly understand where the other is coming from. i believe he will also allow for a little bit of changing and a little bit of accepting that will enable these brothers to overcome. the brothers will finally relate as equals where there is mutual trust and understanding. i believe that the parental child role is on the verge of being surrendered and they will relate as brothers instead. this relationship will be stronger because sam and dean will finally see….they’ll see and understand where the other is coming from for the first time ever….instead of making assumptions based on their own feelings of what they feel about themselves. that will make them stronger.
they’re going to always have conflict because they’re brothers. but at least it won’t be the kind of conflict that destroys trust or the kind that once again has one brother thinking what the other brother is feeling based on their low opinions of themeselves.
sam said they were heading somewhere….he said the end…i don’t that implication was about the end of the show or the end of their lives as some of the fandom was thinking. i think carver was indicating that they were reaching the end of their relationship as we know it. their relationship of constant misperceptions and self loathing. i believe that carver’s “end” meant the end of this vicious cycle the winchesters have been in for the last 8 years…and the beginning of a new brotherly relationship..one that’s stronger and brings them closer.
so again…s9…yes divine…s8 for the most part, great.
carver’s goal can’t happen just like that. it’s going to take a series of events that lead us there…and as stormy as the ride has been, i see the rainbow up ahead. i can’t wait to bask in that sunlight. 😆
the answer to your question…yes….9 is divine…i would put it on a t shirt. 😀
we are so close to finally getting the brothers to really talk. there’s only one thing i find old about our boys. it’s the constant sweeping things under the rug. there’s nothing more frustrating then when dean shuts sam down or when sam caves in and keeps everything inside. it’s this inability to talk to ea. other that has caused most of the conflict between the boys. the result is misunderstanding and misperceptions about how ea. think the other thinks about them. and it’s this inability to talk to ea. other and get reassurance from ea. other that prolongs the belief ea. of them have that they are unworthy. how can they truly love ea. other if they can’t learn to love themselves? carver is finally starting to deal with this. through sam, carver is beginning to end the constant cycle of misperception. he’s not taking away the brotherly love, he’s not saying one wouldn’t die for the other, he’s slowly but surely opening up the path to communication and honesty between sam and dean. he’s finally reaching the point where they truly understand where the other is coming from. i believe he will also allow for a little bit of changing and a little bit of accepting that will enable these brothers to overcome. the brothers will finally relate as equals where there is mutual trust and understanding. i believe that the parental child role is on the verge of being surrendered and they will relate as brothers instead. this relationship will be stronger because sam and dean will finally see….they’ll see and understand where the other is coming from for the first time ever….instead of making assumptions based on their own feelings of what they feel about themselves. that will make them stronger.
they’re going to always have conflict because they’re brothers. but at least it won’t be the kind of conflict that destroys trust or the kind that once again has one brother thinking what the other brother is feeling based on their low opinions of themeselves.
sam said they were heading somewhere….he said the end…i don’t that implication was about the end of the show or the end of their lives as some of the fandom was thinking. i think carver was indicating that they were reaching the end of their relationship as we know it. their relationship of constant misperceptions and self loathing. i believe that carver’s “end” meant the end of this vicious cycle the winchesters have been in for the last 8 years…and the beginning of a new brotherly relationship..one that’s stronger and brings them closer.
so again…s9…yes divine…s8 for the most part, great.
carver’s goal can’t happen just like that. it’s going to take a series of events that lead us there…and as stormy as the ride has been, i see the rainbow up ahead. i can’t wait to bask in that sunlight. 😆
Thanks Nightsky. You nailed it for me when you mentioned hope in the 1st half of the season. “Now that Sam is himself again, did you enjoy the mystery and excitement of Sam/Ezekiel/Gadreel?” I had such hope for Zeke. Yes I’m an angel junkie & willing vessel. Even if Gadreel ends up working with the boys in the end, he is ruined for me 🙁
Now that barely registers seeing the brothers at odds. I just wonder if I will ever be able to rewatch the final moments of the last 2 episodes. I’m afraid of having flash backs to season 4 & hearing Dean tell Sam if you walk out that door, don’t you ever come back.
Still I have a feeling this season will end up in my top 3. I think we’ll have a huge pay off. Meanwhile I’ll keep muttering: wait for it ……. 🙂
Thanks Nightsky. You nailed it for me when you mentioned hope in the 1st half of the season. “Now that Sam is himself again, did you enjoy the mystery and excitement of Sam/Ezekiel/Gadreel?” I had such hope for Zeke. Yes I’m an angel junkie & willing vessel. Even if Gadreel ends up working with the boys in the end, he is ruined for me 🙁
Now that barely registers seeing the brothers at odds. I just wonder if I will ever be able to rewatch the final moments of the last 2 episodes. I’m afraid of having flash backs to season 4 & hearing Dean tell Sam if you walk out that door, don’t you ever come back.
Still I have a feeling this season will end up in my top 3. I think we’ll have a huge pay off. Meanwhile I’ll keep muttering: wait for it ……. 🙂
[quote name=”nappi815″]the answer to your question…yes….9 is divine…i would put it on a t shirt. 😀
we are so close to finally getting the brothers to really talk. there’s only one thing i find old about our boys. it’s the constant sweeping things under the rug. there’s nothing more frustrating then when dean shuts sam down or when sam caves in and keeps everything inside. it’s this inability to talk to ea. other that has caused most of the conflict between the boys. the result is misunderstanding and misperceptions about how ea. think the other thinks about them. and it’s this inability to talk to ea. other and get reassurance from ea. other that prolongs the belief ea. of them have that they are unworthy. how can they truly love ea. other if they can’t learn to love themselves? carver is finally starting to deal with this. through sam, carver is beginning to end the constant cycle of misperception. he’s not taking away the brotherly love, he’s not saying one wouldn’t die for the other, he’s slowly but surely opening up the path to communication and honesty between sam and dean. he’s finally reaching the point where they truly understand where the other is coming from. i believe he will also allow for a little bit of changing and a little bit of accepting that will enable these brothers to overcome. the brothers will finally relate as equals where there is mutual trust and understanding. i believe that the parental child role is on the verge of being surrendered and they will relate as brothers instead. this relationship will be stronger because sam and dean will finally see….they’ll see and understand where the other is coming from for the first time ever….instead of making assumptions based on their own feelings of what they feel about themselves. that will make them stronger.
they’re going to always have conflict because they’re brothers. but at least it won’t be the kind of conflict that destroys trust or the kind that once again has one brother thinking what the other brother is feeling based on their low opinions of themeselves.
sam said they were heading somewhere….he said the end…i don’t that implication was about the end of the show or the end of their lives as some of the fandom was thinking. i think carver was indicating that they were reaching the end of their relationship as we know it. their relationship of constant misperceptions and self loathing. i believe that carver’s “end” meant the end of this vicious cycle the winchesters have been in for the last 8 years…and the beginning of a new brotherly relationship..one that’s stronger and brings them closer.
so again…s9…yes divine…s8 for the most part, great.
carver’s goal can’t happen just like that. it’s going to take a series of events that lead us there…and as stormy as the ride has been, i see the rainbow up ahead. i can’t wait to bask in that sunlight. :lol:[/quote]
I hope you are right. I truely do becasue right now I find their ‘conflicts’ exhausting. I’m still trying to comprehend why with their misperceptions of love and trust why these two guys even hunt together. It makes absolutely no sense in what we are shown.
[quote]the answer to your question…yes….9 is divine…i would put it on a t shirt. 😀
we are so close to finally getting the brothers to really talk. there’s only one thing i find old about our boys. it’s the constant sweeping things under the rug. there’s nothing more frustrating then when dean shuts sam down or when sam caves in and keeps everything inside. it’s this inability to talk to ea. other that has caused most of the conflict between the boys. the result is misunderstanding and misperceptions about how ea. think the other thinks about them. and it’s this inability to talk to ea. other and get reassurance from ea. other that prolongs the belief ea. of them have that they are unworthy. how can they truly love ea. other if they can’t learn to love themselves? carver is finally starting to deal with this. through sam, carver is beginning to end the constant cycle of misperception. he’s not taking away the brotherly love, he’s not saying one wouldn’t die for the other, he’s slowly but surely opening up the path to communication and honesty between sam and dean. he’s finally reaching the point where they truly understand where the other is coming from. i believe he will also allow for a little bit of changing and a little bit of accepting that will enable these brothers to overcome. the brothers will finally relate as equals where there is mutual trust and understanding. i believe that the parental child role is on the verge of being surrendered and they will relate as brothers instead. this relationship will be stronger because sam and dean will finally see….they’ll see and understand where the other is coming from for the first time ever….instead of making assumptions based on their own feelings of what they feel about themselves. that will make them stronger.
they’re going to always have conflict because they’re brothers. but at least it won’t be the kind of conflict that destroys trust or the kind that once again has one brother thinking what the other brother is feeling based on their low opinions of themeselves.
sam said they were heading somewhere….he said the end…i don’t that implication was about the end of the show or the end of their lives as some of the fandom was thinking. i think carver was indicating that they were reaching the end of their relationship as we know it. their relationship of constant misperceptions and self loathing. i believe that carver’s “end” meant the end of this vicious cycle the winchesters have been in for the last 8 years…and the beginning of a new brotherly relationship..one that’s stronger and brings them closer.
so again…s9…yes divine…s8 for the most part, great.
carver’s goal can’t happen just like that. it’s going to take a series of events that lead us there…and as stormy as the ride has been, i see the rainbow up ahead. i can’t wait to bask in that sunlight. :lol:[/quote]
I hope you are right. I truely do becasue right now I find their ‘conflicts’ exhausting. I’m still trying to comprehend why with their misperceptions of love and trust why these two guys even hunt together. It makes absolutely no sense in what we are shown.
I’m with percysowner. The betrayal this season was Dean taking away Sam’s agency. That’s what needs to be addressed and worked through. I hope that is where this season is headed. I’ve never liked the inequality between the brothers. If they are to work together, they need to be equal in the decision making.
So, I won’t know how I feel about S9 until it’s over.
I’m with percysowner. The betrayal this season was Dean taking away Sam’s agency. That’s what needs to be addressed and worked through. I hope that is where this season is headed. I’ve never liked the inequality between the brothers. If they are to work together, they need to be equal in the decision making.
So, I won’t know how I feel about S9 until it’s over.
@6: Yeah, stories without any conflict or drama – we call that the test pattern. (That’s not even why television exists.)
What I don’t care for is if the drama feels contrived, (although technically it’s all contrived.)
@6: Yeah, stories without any conflict or drama – we call that the test pattern. (That’s not even why television exists.)
What I don’t care for is if the drama feels contrived, (although technically it’s all contrived.)
Am I allowed to say what I really feel?
Here goes.
Gee! That nasty Dean saved Sam’s life when he really wanted to die, and end the show. (blame the writers’ for this)
Was really enjoying the 9th season right up until Kevin’s death and Sam’s devastating attack on his brother. Come on! Complaining about Gadreel’s possession of him was kosher, but the rest of the diatribe in the last episode was entirely uncalled for and completely destroyed Dean’s fragile self esteem and everything I love about him. He only sacrifices when it doesn’t hurt him? What rot! I hope the writers fix that, so right now it seems hopeless.
Not happy right now, but never never giving up on this show! 😥 😕
Am I allowed to say what I really feel?
Here goes.
Gee! That nasty Dean saved Sam’s life when he really wanted to die, and end the show. (blame the writers’ for this)
Was really enjoying the 9th season right up until Kevin’s death and Sam’s devastating attack on his brother. Come on! Complaining about Gadreel’s possession of him was kosher, but the rest of the diatribe in the last episode was entirely uncalled for and completely destroyed Dean’s fragile self esteem and everything I love about him. He only sacrifices when it doesn’t hurt him? What rot! I hope the writers fix that, so right now it seems hopeless.
Not happy right now, but never never giving up on this show! 😥 😕
You know [b]Bevie[/b] I understand that Dean’s ‘fragile ‘self esteem issues are important however what you see as ‘rot ‘is not what I see and that ‘nasty ‘Dean did not save Sam’s life he decided Sam’s life and that was a different attack which was equally devasting to Sam if not more so . So while I appreciate the Dean aspect I will confess I hope the show does not turn around and make Sam wrong for what he as been brought to think and feel by his possession and Kevin’s death.
I hope the brothers can find a middle ground but not if Sam is continually underminded for every thought and feeling whether they sit right with some fans or not. Season 9 started with a decision that had far reaching consquences and one that I admit made me feel uncomfortable and as continued to do so in part because of the fandom reaction esp after the Purge .
I have no idea what they plan to do next to be honest like others I will have to wait and see where they go .
You know [b]Bevie[/b] I understand that Dean’s ‘fragile ‘self esteem issues are important however what you see as ‘rot ‘is not what I see and that ‘nasty ‘Dean did not save Sam’s life he decided Sam’s life and that was a different attack which was equally devasting to Sam if not more so . So while I appreciate the Dean aspect I will confess I hope the show does not turn around and make Sam wrong for what he as been brought to think and feel by his possession and Kevin’s death.
I hope the brothers can find a middle ground but not if Sam is continually underminded for every thought and feeling whether they sit right with some fans or not. Season 9 started with a decision that had far reaching consquences and one that I admit made me feel uncomfortable and as continued to do so in part because of the fandom reaction esp after the Purge .
I have no idea what they plan to do next to be honest like others I will have to wait and see where they go .
Bevie I think the writers plan was to put Dean in a no win situation. But I think the intent was for us to gasp at what Dean did. Add to that the fact that Kevin died and you are set up with a scenario that was unacceptable to Sam. As Dean said “he would do it again” That as long as Sam was alive Kevin’s death was worth it. That was the point that went too far for Sam. It’s not acceptable to Sam that he had made his choice and Dean decided to ignore Sam’s wishes. Sam didn’t feel he needed saving. And yes from Sam’s point of view in this instance Dean wasn’t hurt, it was Sam and oh yes Kevin died along with Abner. The collateral damage was too great. It’s easy to say that the sacrifice was worth it when you weren’t the one whose hand just snuffed out the life of an innocent. I thought that Sam let Dean off easy. My feeling is like Sharon’s and percyowner if this gets turned back around on Sam, who in this case did nothing wrong, I will be very disappointed with this whole storyline. If Dean doesn’t learn something from this than it was a pointless 10 episodes. And what will Sam learn? Well he may say “same circumstance” he would never put Dean through a similar nightmare, but I think we will see just how far Sam will go. Not piling on Dean here but this is his journey this season I hope it is handled well. There has to be real consequences for what these guy do. As we saw with the demon blood sometimes globally destructive consequences.
Bevie I think the writers plan was to put Dean in a no win situation. But I think the intent was for us to gasp at what Dean did. Add to that the fact that Kevin died and you are set up with a scenario that was unacceptable to Sam. As Dean said “he would do it again” That as long as Sam was alive Kevin’s death was worth it. That was the point that went too far for Sam. It’s not acceptable to Sam that he had made his choice and Dean decided to ignore Sam’s wishes. Sam didn’t feel he needed saving. And yes from Sam’s point of view in this instance Dean wasn’t hurt, it was Sam and oh yes Kevin died along with Abner. The collateral damage was too great. It’s easy to say that the sacrifice was worth it when you weren’t the one whose hand just snuffed out the life of an innocent. I thought that Sam let Dean off easy. My feeling is like Sharon’s and percyowner if this gets turned back around on Sam, who in this case did nothing wrong, I will be very disappointed with this whole storyline. If Dean doesn’t learn something from this than it was a pointless 10 episodes. And what will Sam learn? Well he may say “same circumstance” he would never put Dean through a similar nightmare, but I think we will see just how far Sam will go. Not piling on Dean here but this is his journey this season I hope it is handled well. There has to be real consequences for what these guy do. As we saw with the demon blood sometimes globally destructive consequences.
I think I will reserve judgment until later in the season. I will say it has my attention. 🙂 I admit I am one who is uncomfortable with it when the brothers are hurting each other. They don’t have to get along like Wally and the Beav (dating myself on that one!!) but it would be nice to have a season where the very foundation of their relationship isn’t hanging in the balance. I like drama and suspense but does it always have to go down the same-ish path? Anyway at this point I am liking it well enough and I think I want to see where we end up before making a final judgment on the season.
I think I will reserve judgment until later in the season. I will say it has my attention. 🙂 I admit I am one who is uncomfortable with it when the brothers are hurting each other. They don’t have to get along like Wally and the Beav (dating myself on that one!!) but it would be nice to have a season where the very foundation of their relationship isn’t hanging in the balance. I like drama and suspense but does it always have to go down the same-ish path? Anyway at this point I am liking it well enough and I think I want to see where we end up before making a final judgment on the season.
I guess I could have left out one of those “judgment” sentences in my post. :-*
I guess I could have left out one of those “judgment” sentences in my post. :-*
Thank you all so far for your input! I love hearing what everyone is thinking!
It occurs to me that no where in the entire article did I give [i]my[/i] opinion of the season! Shall I wait until more people have had a chance to register their thoughts?…. (or is my opinion transparent from all my articles?!)
Thank you all so far for your input! I love hearing what everyone is thinking!
It occurs to me that no where in the entire article did I give [i]my[/i] opinion of the season! Shall I wait until more people have had a chance to register their thoughts?…. (or is my opinion transparent from all my articles?!)
I would like your opinion. The reviewers on this website are always a fascinating read. You generate some very lively discussion.
I would like your opinion. The reviewers on this website are always a fascinating read. You generate some very lively discussion.
I would like to hear your take as well nightsky!
I would like to hear your take as well nightsky!
Right now, I can’t assess the season because it is not going at all in the direction I thought it would be, based on Carver’s few and very vague spoilers at the beginning of the season. I thought it was going to be mostly about the new, different world of fallen angels, demons divided by two warring leaders, a human Cas, and that the brothers had chosen each other instead of closing Hell. I’ve been surprised by the angel possession, the betrayals and the now rocky relationship between the brothers. It is not where I thought the season was going.
I am waiting for every episode with eagerness. I’m can’t wait to see how the story unfolds.
I’m with nappi, I think the brothers are at a turning point in their relationship. Maybe it’s where they have to get to in order for them to work well together to deal with the angels and demons. I think some major tests to their characters are up ahead and they’re going to need to be trusting and supportive of each other, especially since they no longer have the help of someone like Bobby or Kevin.
Thanks for the well-written article, Nightsky!
Right now, I can’t assess the season because it is not going at all in the direction I thought it would be, based on Carver’s few and very vague spoilers at the beginning of the season. I thought it was going to be mostly about the new, different world of fallen angels, demons divided by two warring leaders, a human Cas, and that the brothers had chosen each other instead of closing Hell. I’ve been surprised by the angel possession, the betrayals and the now rocky relationship between the brothers. It is not where I thought the season was going.
I am waiting for every episode with eagerness. I’m can’t wait to see how the story unfolds.
I’m with nappi, I think the brothers are at a turning point in their relationship. Maybe it’s where they have to get to in order for them to work well together to deal with the angels and demons. I think some major tests to their characters are up ahead and they’re going to need to be trusting and supportive of each other, especially since they no longer have the help of someone like Bobby or Kevin.
Thanks for the well-written article, Nightsky!
To paraphrase one of my two favorite Winchesters – season 9 is awesome!
I am loving the mytharc. I am particularly fascinated by the whole mark of Cain thing and where that is leading. The angel war, Metatron, the war for Hell – there is a lot going on. Loving the humor – snarky Crowley, snarky Dean, and even some snarky Sam. Good for him. The season reminds me of seasons 4 and 5, but with Dean in a similar role to Sam back then. You know Sam is going to have to save his brother – or they will save each other.
I do not like the brothers fighting and have been annoyed by the way Sam has talked to his brother the last few episodes after he messed up. But, I saw season 5 on TNT recently and remember having the same feelings about the way Dean spoke to Sam after he messed up. But, I was then happy when it was resolved and Dean apologized and treated Sam right again. I have to believe Sam will do something similar this season. And, I will be very happy with the whole relationship arc at the end, as I was at the end of season 5.
I have liked every season of this show, and I really love the stories the writers prepare that are presented by such a top notch crew and cast. When I read a book, be it a cheap airplane novel or Shakespeare, I will judge characters and agree or disagree with what they do, but I do not try to rewrite the story or change the story presented. I appreciate the story. I feel the same way about this show. I love these characters, flawed as they are, and I may make different decisions than them, but I do not try to substitute my own judgment for them. Instead, I appreciate the story presented and do not try to decide what is in character for them – I leave that to the writers and actors – the people getting paid to do that. Me? I am just thrilled I get to enjoy thus show for a tenth season! I know some experience the show differently, but this is the way it works for me.
Looking back, some seasons I loved nearly every episode (1 and 2) as I watched them, and some I was annoyed with for half a season (6), but once the season was done and I re watched with the perspective of the whole season, I loved every one. This season, I have loved most episodes, but had a few frustrations. 8 seasons of experience tells me that by the end, I will be binge watching season 9 and very happy. So – yes, it is divine!
To paraphrase one of my two favorite Winchesters – season 9 is awesome!
I am loving the mytharc. I am particularly fascinated by the whole mark of Cain thing and where that is leading. The angel war, Metatron, the war for Hell – there is a lot going on. Loving the humor – snarky Crowley, snarky Dean, and even some snarky Sam. Good for him. The season reminds me of seasons 4 and 5, but with Dean in a similar role to Sam back then. You know Sam is going to have to save his brother – or they will save each other.
I do not like the brothers fighting and have been annoyed by the way Sam has talked to his brother the last few episodes after he messed up. But, I saw season 5 on TNT recently and remember having the same feelings about the way Dean spoke to Sam after he messed up. But, I was then happy when it was resolved and Dean apologized and treated Sam right again. I have to believe Sam will do something similar this season. And, I will be very happy with the whole relationship arc at the end, as I was at the end of season 5.
I have liked every season of this show, and I really love the stories the writers prepare that are presented by such a top notch crew and cast. When I read a book, be it a cheap airplane novel or Shakespeare, I will judge characters and agree or disagree with what they do, but I do not try to rewrite the story or change the story presented. I appreciate the story. I feel the same way about this show. I love these characters, flawed as they are, and I may make different decisions than them, but I do not try to substitute my own judgment for them. Instead, I appreciate the story presented and do not try to decide what is in character for them – I leave that to the writers and actors – the people getting paid to do that. Me? I am just thrilled I get to enjoy thus show for a tenth season! I know some experience the show differently, but this is the way it works for me.
Looking back, some seasons I loved nearly every episode (1 and 2) as I watched them, and some I was annoyed with for half a season (6), but once the season was done and I re watched with the perspective of the whole season, I loved every one. This season, I have loved most episodes, but had a few frustrations. 8 seasons of experience tells me that by the end, I will be binge watching season 9 and very happy. So – yes, it is divine!
Ok. Time for me to go on record with my opinion of season 9!
I have loved most of season 9, mostly because I have been captivated with the Sam/Ezekiel/Gadreel storyline. I was not deeply troubled by the whole Dean/Sam consent issue, so from the start I was spared that issue. I thought Dean’s decision, while difficult and controversial, was soundly based in his character. It set up a well-earned, logical, [i]believable[/i] basis for drama and conflict between the brothers. I have been excited watching Jared play the possessing angel. It was inspired, fresh acting. I also loved the mystery of Ezekiel. I am sympathetic to his character. I am still on his side, hoping for ultimate redemption (if you read my Threads series, that is probably obvious!). I also really like Tahmoh as an actor, so I am happy to see his return.
I was shocked by the introduction of the Mark of Cain. It is a solid basis for a brand new myth arc and exciting story telling. Jensen has, of course, been captivating all season and the great acting of Tim O. is, again, a tremendous foundation upon which to build that plot.
I’ve liked Castiel’s story and Misha’s portrayal of all of the fallen angel/human/borrowed angel character. I’ve liked Crowley and Mark’s fabulous portrayal of that conflicted, snarky, very reluctant hero this season.
There have been some episodes that I didn’t like…at all. Rock and a Hard Place is top of that list. I won’t enumerate everything I thought was wrong with that show, but wow, it was right up there with Time for a Wedding for me. The rest of the episodes ranged from Ok to good to stunning. Laughed out loud at Dog Dean Afternoon. Went Awww at Slumber Party and really admired its creativity. Liked the backstory of Bad Boys…so yeah, came out way on the positive end of episode reviews for the year.
I like it when the brothers love each other. They can have fights, disagreements, power struggles, etc, but they have to be bonded underneath it all. That has been the case for most of the season, so I have been happy….until the last two episodes.
I know it had to hit the fan, but I have been frustrated with the conversations they have had, or rather not had. Neither of them has said everything they need to say to truly explain themselves and that annoys me no end. It makes sense, them being guys and all, but it feels artificially prolonged for the sake of extending the drama. I am holding my breath as to which way Jeremy will now take the story. Will the good writing continue (ala second half of season 8?) and we have slow but steady, honest progress between the two of them? I don’t want instant shangri-la. That wouldn’t feel real. But honest progress would make me happy again. If we instead get blah, blah stonewalling to stall the reunion, I will be very unhappy.
So overall scorecard? First half of the season was great for me. Excellent, captivating story and acting all the way around. I feel we are at a crossroads. The rest of the season will either be just as good, and rank very high in my list (up there with Seasons 4 and 5); or will fall miserably flat, and hit the lows of the first half of season 8. I am very, [i]very[/i] nervous about which it will be, and I honestly can’t tell which way it will go since we have gotten both the best and the worst half-seasons out of Jeremy’s crew.
Ok. Time for me to go on record with my opinion of season 9!
I have loved most of season 9, mostly because I have been captivated with the Sam/Ezekiel/Gadreel storyline. I was not deeply troubled by the whole Dean/Sam consent issue, so from the start I was spared that issue. I thought Dean’s decision, while difficult and controversial, was soundly based in his character. It set up a well-earned, logical, [i]believable[/i] basis for drama and conflict between the brothers. I have been excited watching Jared play the possessing angel. It was inspired, fresh acting. I also loved the mystery of Ezekiel. I am sympathetic to his character. I am still on his side, hoping for ultimate redemption (if you read my Threads series, that is probably obvious!). I also really like Tahmoh as an actor, so I am happy to see his return.
I was shocked by the introduction of the Mark of Cain. It is a solid basis for a brand new myth arc and exciting story telling. Jensen has, of course, been captivating all season and the great acting of Tim O. is, again, a tremendous foundation upon which to build that plot.
I’ve liked Castiel’s story and Misha’s portrayal of all of the fallen angel/human/borrowed angel character. I’ve liked Crowley and Mark’s fabulous portrayal of that conflicted, snarky, very reluctant hero this season.
There have been some episodes that I didn’t like…at all. Rock and a Hard Place is top of that list. I won’t enumerate everything I thought was wrong with that show, but wow, it was right up there with Time for a Wedding for me. The rest of the episodes ranged from Ok to good to stunning. Laughed out loud at Dog Dean Afternoon. Went Awww at Slumber Party and really admired its creativity. Liked the backstory of Bad Boys…so yeah, came out way on the positive end of episode reviews for the year.
I like it when the brothers love each other. They can have fights, disagreements, power struggles, etc, but they have to be bonded underneath it all. That has been the case for most of the season, so I have been happy….until the last two episodes.
I know it had to hit the fan, but I have been frustrated with the conversations they have had, or rather not had. Neither of them has said everything they need to say to truly explain themselves and that annoys me no end. It makes sense, them being guys and all, but it feels artificially prolonged for the sake of extending the drama. I am holding my breath as to which way Jeremy will now take the story. Will the good writing continue (ala second half of season 8?) and we have slow but steady, honest progress between the two of them? I don’t want instant shangri-la. That wouldn’t feel real. But honest progress would make me happy again. If we instead get blah, blah stonewalling to stall the reunion, I will be very unhappy.
So overall scorecard? First half of the season was great for me. Excellent, captivating story and acting all the way around. I feel we are at a crossroads. The rest of the season will either be just as good, and rank very high in my list (up there with Seasons 4 and 5); or will fall miserably flat, and hit the lows of the first half of season 8. I am very, [i]very[/i] nervous about which it will be, and I honestly can’t tell which way it will go since we have gotten both the best and the worst half-seasons out of Jeremy’s crew.
[quote name=”Grace232″]I love these characters, flawed as they are, and I may make different decisions than them, but I do not try to substitute my own judgment for them.[/quote]
[quote name=”nightsky”]I like it when the brothers love each other. They can have fights, disagreements, power struggles, etc, but they have to be bonded underneath it all. That has been the case for most of the season, so I have been happy….until the last two episodes.[/quote]
Um, yeah. What they said 🙂
Nightsky, I loved “Zeke” and feel sooo betrayed. Do you think he can truly redeem himself? I don’t have the energy to believe in him again but would LOVE to be proven wrong.
[quote]I love these characters, flawed as they are, and I may make different decisions than them, but I do not try to substitute my own judgment for them.[/quote]
[quote]I like it when the brothers love each other. They can have fights, disagreements, power struggles, etc, but they have to be bonded underneath it all. That has been the case for most of the season, so I have been happy….until the last two episodes.[/quote]
Um, yeah. What they said 🙂
Nightsky, I loved “Zeke” and feel sooo betrayed. Do you think he can truly redeem himself? I don’t have the energy to believe in him again but would LOVE to be proven wrong.
I’ve enjoyed Season 9 a lot so far. Also enjoyed Season 8 and am in the minority that also enjoyed the first half of that season, too. I found that some of the weaker episodes were in the second half of the season (Man’s Best Friend, Freaks and Geeks, Remember the Titans), though the season finished up very strong.
The conflict between the brothers is real, not contrived as it has been in some prior seasons. Count me on the side that found what Dean did to Sam (re: angel possession) as the most vile and reprehensible thing he’s ever done to his brother. Given his role as father/caretaker/brother, I understand why he did it, and why the writers went there, but it doesn’t excuse it. As a result, it’s natural that this will take a while to play out and get resolved.
Was sorry to see Kevin go, but it fit well with the storyline. Have also enjoyed Castiel’s turn as a human, and the affects the “almost cure” had on Crowley. Both Crowley and Abaddon are great but I’m a little apprehensive on the angel war storyline – so far, many of the protagonists (Bartholomew, Malachi) haven’t been that interesting. The Mark of Cain and twist on the story of Cain and Abel was very clever; looking forward to see how the Mark of Cain arc plays out. I thought there would be a redemption arc for Ezekiel but not so sure now, especially after killing his best friend Abner (if he did in fact kill him).
I’ve enjoyed Season 9 a lot so far. Also enjoyed Season 8 and am in the minority that also enjoyed the first half of that season, too. I found that some of the weaker episodes were in the second half of the season (Man’s Best Friend, Freaks and Geeks, Remember the Titans), though the season finished up very strong.
The conflict between the brothers is real, not contrived as it has been in some prior seasons. Count me on the side that found what Dean did to Sam (re: angel possession) as the most vile and reprehensible thing he’s ever done to his brother. Given his role as father/caretaker/brother, I understand why he did it, and why the writers went there, but it doesn’t excuse it. As a result, it’s natural that this will take a while to play out and get resolved.
Was sorry to see Kevin go, but it fit well with the storyline. Have also enjoyed Castiel’s turn as a human, and the affects the “almost cure” had on Crowley. Both Crowley and Abaddon are great but I’m a little apprehensive on the angel war storyline – so far, many of the protagonists (Bartholomew, Malachi) haven’t been that interesting. The Mark of Cain and twist on the story of Cain and Abel was very clever; looking forward to see how the Mark of Cain arc plays out. I thought there would be a redemption arc for Ezekiel but not so sure now, especially after killing his best friend Abner (if he did in fact kill him).
[quote name=”mary9930″]
Nightsky, I loved “Zeke” and feel sooo betrayed. Do you think he can truly redeem himself? I don’t have the energy to believe in him again but would LOVE to be proven wrong.[/quote]
Actually, I have no doubt at all that he will redeem himself. There is a redemption theme running through this whole season, so I am fairly certain he is being set up to anchor that arc with ultimate redemption. All year he has done good as well as bad, so he is being presented as a conflicted character. Even when he does things that are disastrous, he is [i]trying[/i] to do the right thing (i.e. restore heaven). At the root of his dilemma are his selfish intentions, but they are fueled by his desperation. He will learn from his first mistake (Eden) and will see Metatron as the maniacal manipulator he is. I completely believe he will save the day at the absolutely crucial moment.
[quote]
Nightsky, I loved “Zeke” and feel sooo betrayed. Do you think he can truly redeem himself? I don’t have the energy to believe in him again but would LOVE to be proven wrong.[/quote]
Actually, I have no doubt at all that he will redeem himself. There is a redemption theme running through this whole season, so I am fairly certain he is being set up to anchor that arc with ultimate redemption. All year he has done good as well as bad, so he is being presented as a conflicted character. Even when he does things that are disastrous, he is [i]trying[/i] to do the right thing (i.e. restore heaven). At the root of his dilemma are his selfish intentions, but they are fueled by his desperation. He will learn from his first mistake (Eden) and will see Metatron as the maniacal manipulator he is. I completely believe he will save the day at the absolutely crucial moment.
You know I had high hopes for Gadreel until Kevin and Abner. If Abner isn’t dead then I will forgive that one. However when he was trying not to let Sam eject him he really seemed like a bad guy. Gadreel wants to be a hero to the angels not to the humans. So I don’t know where his character is going it’s a mystery. There is so much ground to cover still and not very many episodes left. Some of these stories are probably going to be carried through next season. Hopefully the guys will be on the same page by this seasons end.
You know I had high hopes for Gadreel until Kevin and Abner. If Abner isn’t dead then I will forgive that one. However when he was trying not to let Sam eject him he really seemed like a bad guy. Gadreel wants to be a hero to the angels not to the humans. So I don’t know where his character is going it’s a mystery. There is so much ground to cover still and not very many episodes left. Some of these stories are probably going to be carried through next season. Hopefully the guys will be on the same page by this seasons end.
this season is amazing for me. i’m really happy where the boys are finally headed. it’s long over due. i just don’t understand such negative reaction to this season based on two comments from sam which seem to me to be totally justified and understandable given past history and what dean did to him.
i think it’s important to go back and rewatch the seasons, because if you do you might take notice that there has been more angst than not.
when was the last time sam laughed? can anyone remember a time where sam seemed happy. sure a smile here and there, but can someone pinpoint happiness in sam’s life…as a whole? to see jared, who is the most friendliest, happiest, goofiest person i’ve ever had the pleasure of meeting play a character who is so ……sad …wow, it’s a testament to his awesome acting skills.
sam has been betrayed in a way that dean never has betrayed him before and a result of that betrayal is kevin’s death by sam’s hand. after everything that sam has been through, is it so hard to see things the way sam does right now ? how much hurt, anger and guilt he’s feeling. and did he leave his brother? did he tell dean when dean walked away from him in road trip that if he walked out to never come back? no he didn’t . sam never gave up on his brother and he still hasn’t . sam is literally the only one fighting for their relationship as of this moment.
not to drag up the past, but it’s a bit important to look over past seasons if you ‘re going to base an opinion on this season.
it’s been awhile so one may forget. but dean has said some pretty awful things to sam over the years starting in s4. how many times did dean call sam a monster?
in s5 dean literally spent 17 episodes angry and or distrustful of his brother. 17..that’s almost an entire season. in s8 dean was pissed off at his brother for 10 eps. 10 episodes dean gave sam grief. said hurtful things..did hurtful things. why? because sam thought his brother died and stuck to the promise they made ea. other. so in all, dean has been pissed off at sam for a total of 27 episodes during the course of the series run…27 eps. that’s not including dean’s anger at soulless sam.
sam has been upset with dean for killing amy for a total of 10 days which was one eppy. he was upset with dean for 2 minutes when he found out dean lied to him in s2. he was upset enough in torn and frayed to give dean an ultimatum because of the text. now sam has been betrayed by dean worse than any of the other times. it’s only been 4 eps and people are seeing sam as the villain and dean as the victim 😮 why? because sam told dean in so many words that they had to work at being brothers . dean just can’t think he can do what he did and go back to the normal routine of hunting and it will be all ok again. dean thinks he gets a pass cuz he’s family.( sam never got any pass from dean). sam had to earn back dean’s trust. he had to work hard for it. dean’s the victim because sam told dean in the [b]same[/b]circumstances, he wouldn’t do what dean did. that sam wouldnt’ betray dean’s wishes and he certainly wouldn’t repeat the same action again knowing someone else died because of it. a member of their family by their own hand. dean is seen as a victim in all this? i’m sorry. i love dean too, but he is not the victim.
dean’s willingness to betray sam for his own personal reasons added to his willingess to believe that innocents are expendable obviously is not ok with sam. and it shouldn’t be with dean either. ironically for awhile sam was considered the one with the darkness within…but i think it’s dean who has this darkness within.
there is a core issue, for lack of a better word, that dean is living with that he bases his extreme decisions on. whatever it is with dean, he’s gone too far. for sam, dean has gone too far. sam is finally asking the right questions. he’s trying to understand his brother. yes, he’s hurt. the next step in that process is anger…so he won’t pull punches. i mean dean hasn’t even apologized. but sam loves his brother. he’s fighting for their relationship. the alternative would’ve been to leave dean alone. and that would’ve just led to dean’s destruction. sam got in the car. he wants to fix things. he aint letting this go. he will push dean to talk.
this season is amazing for me. i’m really happy where the boys are finally headed. it’s long over due. i just don’t understand such negative reaction to this season based on two comments from sam which seem to me to be totally justified and understandable given past history and what dean did to him.
i think it’s important to go back and rewatch the seasons, because if you do you might take notice that there has been more angst than not.
when was the last time sam laughed? can anyone remember a time where sam seemed happy. sure a smile here and there, but can someone pinpoint happiness in sam’s life…as a whole? to see jared, who is the most friendliest, happiest, goofiest person i’ve ever had the pleasure of meeting play a character who is so ……sad …wow, it’s a testament to his awesome acting skills.
sam has been betrayed in a way that dean never has betrayed him before and a result of that betrayal is kevin’s death by sam’s hand. after everything that sam has been through, is it so hard to see things the way sam does right now ? how much hurt, anger and guilt he’s feeling. and did he leave his brother? did he tell dean when dean walked away from him in road trip that if he walked out to never come back? no he didn’t . sam never gave up on his brother and he still hasn’t . sam is literally the only one fighting for their relationship as of this moment.
not to drag up the past, but it’s a bit important to look over past seasons if you ‘re going to base an opinion on this season.
it’s been awhile so one may forget. but dean has said some pretty awful things to sam over the years starting in s4. how many times did dean call sam a monster?
in s5 dean literally spent 17 episodes angry and or distrustful of his brother. 17..that’s almost an entire season. in s8 dean was pissed off at his brother for 10 eps. 10 episodes dean gave sam grief. said hurtful things..did hurtful things. why? because sam thought his brother died and stuck to the promise they made ea. other. so in all, dean has been pissed off at sam for a total of 27 episodes during the course of the series run…27 eps. that’s not including dean’s anger at soulless sam.
sam has been upset with dean for killing amy for a total of 10 days which was one eppy. he was upset with dean for 2 minutes when he found out dean lied to him in s2. he was upset enough in torn and frayed to give dean an ultimatum because of the text. now sam has been betrayed by dean worse than any of the other times. it’s only been 4 eps and people are seeing sam as the villain and dean as the victim 😮 why? because sam told dean in so many words that they had to work at being brothers . dean just can’t think he can do what he did and go back to the normal routine of hunting and it will be all ok again. dean thinks he gets a pass cuz he’s family.( sam never got any pass from dean). sam had to earn back dean’s trust. he had to work hard for it. dean’s the victim because sam told dean in the [b]same[/b]circumstances, he wouldn’t do what dean did. that sam wouldnt’ betray dean’s wishes and he certainly wouldn’t repeat the same action again knowing someone else died because of it. a member of their family by their own hand. dean is seen as a victim in all this? i’m sorry. i love dean too, but he is not the victim.
dean’s willingness to betray sam for his own personal reasons added to his willingess to believe that innocents are expendable obviously is not ok with sam. and it shouldn’t be with dean either. ironically for awhile sam was considered the one with the darkness within…but i think it’s dean who has this darkness within.
there is a core issue, for lack of a better word, that dean is living with that he bases his extreme decisions on. whatever it is with dean, he’s gone too far. for sam, dean has gone too far. sam is finally asking the right questions. he’s trying to understand his brother. yes, he’s hurt. the next step in that process is anger…so he won’t pull punches. i mean dean hasn’t even apologized. but sam loves his brother. he’s fighting for their relationship. the alternative would’ve been to leave dean alone. and that would’ve just led to dean’s destruction. sam got in the car. he wants to fix things. he aint letting this go. he will push dean to talk.
as i stated, this season, the way i see it. is finally ridding the cancer out of the boys relationship. radiation ain’t easy. it makes you sick. it makes you tired. but when the cancer is gone and your body is healthy again, doesn’t one look at life differently..live for the day. love and not sweat the small stuff. maybe even learn to let go of old resentments?
the deep rooted issues that these boys have that affect the way they think and react is the cancer of their brotherhood. they are now starting the process of “radiation”….sam is the one initiating the process but it’s important for the survival of their relationship.
i have no doubt that by the time this season is done their bond will be a healthy strong one.
i think carver is doing a great job. i’ve said it before, he was part of the writing crew that created the issues bet. the boys in the first place under kripke’s realm. if i remember correctly, both he and kripke left at the same time but none of the real issues between the boys were ever actually resolved. when he comes back, he sees that the boys are the same as when he left….boys. not only that, but it felt as though sam and dean were disconnected. carver may have brought a little conflict back but it was only to start the path to a new brotherhood based on mutual trust, understanding and acceptance. if the conflict demonstrates anything, it is love. because if they didn’t love ea. other, than dean wouldn’t have given sam such grief in the first place. he wouldn’t have given a damn what sam did. and sam wouldn’t have done the trials for dean, tried to atone for making the mistake in believing his brother died and be willing to die doing the trials if sam didn’t love his brother. you don’t fail someone you don’t love.
you don’t fight to fix what’s wrong if you don’t love. you don’t ask questions that may seem cruel, but are really trying to get at the root of what someone is thinking if you don’t love them. this season is all about love. carver hasn’t messed with that at all. as a matter of fact seems to me that when one loves to the point where it brings about dire consequences for all involved, isn’t it only natural for the the one who’s the object of that love, to prove his love by letting the other know that his actions are dangerous and seemingly selfish. it doesn’t matter what the answer to the question sam asked dean is. what’s important is that dean thinks about the question and can honestly answer it. sam is trying to get dean to face himself. this will all lead to confrontation and with that expressing their feelings. yes, for one brief moment they will have to have a chick flick moment in order to express their pov, deal with what’s wrong, make changes and accept what won’t change. that is the key to fixing their brotherly relationship and that’s what carver, the way i see it, is doing.
as i stated, this season, the way i see it. is finally ridding the cancer out of the boys relationship. radiation ain’t easy. it makes you sick. it makes you tired. but when the cancer is gone and your body is healthy again, doesn’t one look at life differently..live for the day. love and not sweat the small stuff. maybe even learn to let go of old resentments?
the deep rooted issues that these boys have that affect the way they think and react is the cancer of their brotherhood. they are now starting the process of “radiation”….sam is the one initiating the process but it’s important for the survival of their relationship.
i have no doubt that by the time this season is done their bond will be a healthy strong one.
i think carver is doing a great job. i’ve said it before, he was part of the writing crew that created the issues bet. the boys in the first place under kripke’s realm. if i remember correctly, both he and kripke left at the same time but none of the real issues between the boys were ever actually resolved. when he comes back, he sees that the boys are the same as when he left….boys. not only that, but it felt as though sam and dean were disconnected. carver may have brought a little conflict back but it was only to start the path to a new brotherhood based on mutual trust, understanding and acceptance. if the conflict demonstrates anything, it is love. because if they didn’t love ea. other, than dean wouldn’t have given sam such grief in the first place. he wouldn’t have given a damn what sam did. and sam wouldn’t have done the trials for dean, tried to atone for making the mistake in believing his brother died and be willing to die doing the trials if sam didn’t love his brother. you don’t fail someone you don’t love.
you don’t fight to fix what’s wrong if you don’t love. you don’t ask questions that may seem cruel, but are really trying to get at the root of what someone is thinking if you don’t love them. this season is all about love. carver hasn’t messed with that at all. as a matter of fact seems to me that when one loves to the point where it brings about dire consequences for all involved, isn’t it only natural for the the one who’s the object of that love, to prove his love by letting the other know that his actions are dangerous and seemingly selfish. it doesn’t matter what the answer to the question sam asked dean is. what’s important is that dean thinks about the question and can honestly answer it. sam is trying to get dean to face himself. this will all lead to confrontation and with that expressing their feelings. yes, for one brief moment they will have to have a chick flick moment in order to express their pov, deal with what’s wrong, make changes and accept what won’t change. that is the key to fixing their brotherly relationship and that’s what carver, the way i see it, is doing.
Since you’re looking for opinions, here’s mine:
I’ve enjoyed quite a few episodes, but not the overall season. But I haven’t enjoyed the direction of the series at all since Carver took the helm.
I was VERY disappointed that the first few episodes of S9 did not seem to build off of Sacrifice. Since I had major issues with the beginning of season 8, and was so pleased with the possibilities for actual communication and understanding set up in 8.23, the lack of Sam-in-control-of-himself, and the lying took the show in a very unsatisfactory direction for me.
Most of season 8 and now Season 9, imo, has been a rehashing of issues that were mostly resolved way back in season 5. I felt that Dean and Sam had reached the point where they were dealing with each other in a much more equal – and mature – way before the results of SwanSong.
Obviously s6&s7 were a bit of backtracking in their relationship (because of the whole soulless and hallucination issues), but I REALLY hate that Carver took them back to where they were in about season 4… the mistrust and over-protective brother issues, the inequality and dissatisfaction… most of that was OVER, imo. Wrapped up beautifully by Kripke.
So yes, while I have ranked several individual episodes as enjoyable (I especially enjoyed seeing the Sam/Zeke/Gad transitions), this season receives a failing grade from me for being a rehash of old issues.
In fact, I’ll be DVRing the next few episodes. If and when they resolve Sam and Deans issues, I’ll be back. I hope it’ll be VERY soon. I do want to enjoy season 10.
Since you’re looking for opinions, here’s mine:
I’ve enjoyed quite a few episodes, but not the overall season. But I haven’t enjoyed the direction of the series at all since Carver took the helm.
I was VERY disappointed that the first few episodes of S9 did not seem to build off of Sacrifice. Since I had major issues with the beginning of season 8, and was so pleased with the possibilities for actual communication and understanding set up in 8.23, the lack of Sam-in-control-of-himself, and the lying took the show in a very unsatisfactory direction for me.
Most of season 8 and now Season 9, imo, has been a rehashing of issues that were mostly resolved way back in season 5. I felt that Dean and Sam had reached the point where they were dealing with each other in a much more equal – and mature – way before the results of SwanSong.
Obviously s6&s7 were a bit of backtracking in their relationship (because of the whole soulless and hallucination issues), but I REALLY hate that Carver took them back to where they were in about season 4… the mistrust and over-protective brother issues, the inequality and dissatisfaction… most of that was OVER, imo. Wrapped up beautifully by Kripke.
So yes, while I have ranked several individual episodes as enjoyable (I especially enjoyed seeing the Sam/Zeke/Gad transitions), this season receives a failing grade from me for being a rehash of old issues.
In fact, I’ll be DVRing the next few episodes. If and when they resolve Sam and Deans issues, I’ll be back. I hope it’ll be VERY soon. I do want to enjoy season 10.
Perhaps forgiveness/redemption is a theme. Castiel might be looking for some from Bartholomew, Dean from Sam and even Gadreel is motivated from his sense of redemption of himself. Cain even had a valid explanation for his actions.Other than Dean being an Eastwood fan, note that he was watching “Unforgiven” in the Purge. Writers don’t usually have gratuitous mentions like this.
Perhaps forgiveness/redemption is a theme. Castiel might be looking for some from Bartholomew, Dean from Sam and even Gadreel is motivated from his sense of redemption of himself. Cain even had a valid explanation for his actions.Other than Dean being an Eastwood fan, note that he was watching “Unforgiven” in the Purge. Writers don’t usually have gratuitous mentions like this.
quote: #29
i guess i never really saw the issues as being resolved. they were just put aside. sam jumped in the pit to save the world but he never stopped feeling like a failure. up to that point he jumped in the pit because he failed dean. he didn’t save him from hell. he let lucifer out . it was all about atonement for sam, but nothing about resolution. he certainly still didn’t see himself as worthy.
dean’s issues with sam have never been resolved. still don’t know til this day if dean wants sam to have normal or not. and dean still has issues about his lack of self worth which influences practically all his decisions, especially those that concern sam.
dean had no choice but to let sam jump in the pit. yes for a moment he abided by sam’s decision, but if you recall, dean never intended on not helping sam. he even admitted that in s6…so when dean let sam jump in the back of his mind he was always going to get him out…so it’s not like dean really accepted sam’s decision. he always intended on getting him out. i get that he didn’t but the point is that dean’s decision to let sam jump was based on his notion that it was only temporary. so it wasn’t really about acceptance for dean….and when sam came back soulless, well dean’s temporary vacation from parent role was resumed.
see, dean never really dealt with any of his issues and sam never really dealt with his.
they just lied dormant. the point i think carver is trying to make is that no matter how much you try to bury something, it always ends up rearing it’s ugly head. dean has spent a lifetime burying crap and it’s done nothing but cause pain.
i just see carver finally dealing with all the buried crap.
agree to disagree on this one. but i don’t see it as a rehash. i see it more of a continuation and resolution. but you know…different eyes and all.
just hope s10 is better for you though
quote: #29
i guess i never really saw the issues as being resolved. they were just put aside. sam jumped in the pit to save the world but he never stopped feeling like a failure. up to that point he jumped in the pit because he failed dean. he didn’t save him from hell. he let lucifer out . it was all about atonement for sam, but nothing about resolution. he certainly still didn’t see himself as worthy.
dean’s issues with sam have never been resolved. still don’t know til this day if dean wants sam to have normal or not. and dean still has issues about his lack of self worth which influences practically all his decisions, especially those that concern sam.
dean had no choice but to let sam jump in the pit. yes for a moment he abided by sam’s decision, but if you recall, dean never intended on not helping sam. he even admitted that in s6…so when dean let sam jump in the back of his mind he was always going to get him out…so it’s not like dean really accepted sam’s decision. he always intended on getting him out. i get that he didn’t but the point is that dean’s decision to let sam jump was based on his notion that it was only temporary. so it wasn’t really about acceptance for dean….and when sam came back soulless, well dean’s temporary vacation from parent role was resumed.
see, dean never really dealt with any of his issues and sam never really dealt with his.
they just lied dormant. the point i think carver is trying to make is that no matter how much you try to bury something, it always ends up rearing it’s ugly head. dean has spent a lifetime burying crap and it’s done nothing but cause pain.
i just see carver finally dealing with all the buried crap.
agree to disagree on this one. but i don’t see it as a rehash. i see it more of a continuation and resolution. but you know…different eyes and all.
just hope s10 is better for you though
#31
Nappi, you will notice that I said MOSTLY resolved. Yes, there were still issues, but I did not see them as being in such a bad place as Carver has taken them.
ETA: if they hadn’t intentionally brought up so many past issues (see Southern Comfort and on through season 8 ) that the brothers had told each other were resolved, I’d be more inclined to think it wasn’t rehashing. Unfortunately, we’ve headed back down these same roads. Again and again and again.
This is not continuation. This is not resolution. This is, to paraphrase one of the writers on twitter, “a tearing down (supposedly) in order to rebuild”. It is an intentional destruction of Sam and Dean’s relationship.
This is, imo, unnecessary and destructive to the show.
Yes, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Glad you’re enjoying it so much. It’s totally not working for me, so I’ll leave it to you.
#31
Nappi, you will notice that I said MOSTLY resolved. Yes, there were still issues, but I did not see them as being in such a bad place as Carver has taken them.
ETA: if they hadn’t intentionally brought up so many past issues (see Southern Comfort and on through season 8 ) that the brothers had told each other were resolved, I’d be more inclined to think it wasn’t rehashing. Unfortunately, we’ve headed back down these same roads. Again and again and again.
This is not continuation. This is not resolution. This is, to paraphrase one of the writers on twitter, “a tearing down (supposedly) in order to rebuild”. It is an intentional destruction of Sam and Dean’s relationship.
This is, imo, unnecessary and destructive to the show.
Yes, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Glad you’re enjoying it so much. It’s totally not working for me, so I’ll leave it to you.
sorry you’re so down. i guess i just see the positive in all this. and i don’t see it as unnecessary or destructive. aggravating and frustrating, but not unnecessary or destructive. 😀
i guess the way i see it is that the most important issues of them all were the ones that were never resolved. and it’s these core issues that have led to the brother conflict…the primary one being that of misperception. it’s the brother’s personal inner demon that has perpetuated the constant misunderstanding and that is something kripke imo never did resolve.
whatever the issue is that dean is not dealing with has influenced most of his decisions including the bad ones. it is also what has him holding onto resentments thought to be forgiven. i feel both dean and myself were naive in believing him when he told bobby and sam in family matters that he gave everyone a clean slate. i think he meant it when he said it, but i don’t believe it was something he truly was able to ever follow through on. he told sam in sam interrupted to bury it. you bury it down deep inside so you don’t become like martin. that you let it come out in fits of violence and alcoholism. i thought that was the worst advice he could give sam. burying it doesn’t make it go away. there will come a circumstance that all that crap will come out again. it always does.
the one key issue of dean’s that hasn’t yet been resolved, because he just buries everything so deep, has had negative results.
he even told sam in sharp teeth that he just wanted to go back to their regular routine. again, he’s trying to bury things. and burying all this crap, not facing whatever it is that drives him to such extremes, in the end hurts dean himself…not just sam. not just innocents. but dean. it’s a cycle. 7 years the same cycle. nobody has thought to end it..not until carver came.
so he’s reconstructing their relationship. he is destructing the one that exists…i’m glad. the one that exists has the brothers always living with guilt. it has sam believing he’s a failure to his brother. it has dean thinking sam doesn’t love him as much as dean loves sam. we the audience can see that’s not the case, because we get sam and dean’s perspective (for the most part, i know that sometimes that seems debatable), but sam and dean don’t get to see ea,. other’s pov.
this has been a resolution that was never resolved. ea. brother not understanding where the other is coming from. ea. feeling the way they do because of some deep rooted issue of……? for sam we’ve been finally told….and not until s8….it’s his feeling of failure. but what is it for dean? we’ve never really been told by kripke or gamble…what is it that makes dean hate himself so much? how long is this self hatred to go on? kripke, gamble neither one of them had an episode showing dean forgiving himself for any of the losses, and show has never had dean give any indication that he even likes what he sees in the mirror. that is the resolution that hasn’t been resolved and that for me is the key as to what makes dean tick.
seems one of the theme that carver is trying to finally abolish is the theme of burying crap…sweeping stuff under the rug, and never fully dealing with the true problem.
the one resolution that i feel kripke and co. have brought to the foreground and never dealt with regarding both boys is their self loathing and lack of worth. i think carver for the first time is dealing with this. and this for me is the key to a better relationship between the boys. a relationship without misperception and misunderstandings. one of acceptance and one of change. and with any hope one where the boys see worth in themselves the way ea. one sees worth in ea. other.
i will gladly enjoy the show for the both of us. 😉 i’m confident i won’t have to do that for long. i think you’ll find that joy….until then….chocolate and icecream helps. 😆
sorry you’re so down. i guess i just see the positive in all this. and i don’t see it as unnecessary or destructive. aggravating and frustrating, but not unnecessary or destructive. 😀
i guess the way i see it is that the most important issues of them all were the ones that were never resolved. and it’s these core issues that have led to the brother conflict…the primary one being that of misperception. it’s the brother’s personal inner demon that has perpetuated the constant misunderstanding and that is something kripke imo never did resolve.
whatever the issue is that dean is not dealing with has influenced most of his decisions including the bad ones. it is also what has him holding onto resentments thought to be forgiven. i feel both dean and myself were naive in believing him when he told bobby and sam in family matters that he gave everyone a clean slate. i think he meant it when he said it, but i don’t believe it was something he truly was able to ever follow through on. he told sam in sam interrupted to bury it. you bury it down deep inside so you don’t become like martin. that you let it come out in fits of violence and alcoholism. i thought that was the worst advice he could give sam. burying it doesn’t make it go away. there will come a circumstance that all that crap will come out again. it always does.
the one key issue of dean’s that hasn’t yet been resolved, because he just buries everything so deep, has had negative results.
he even told sam in sharp teeth that he just wanted to go back to their regular routine. again, he’s trying to bury things. and burying all this crap, not facing whatever it is that drives him to such extremes, in the end hurts dean himself…not just sam. not just innocents. but dean. it’s a cycle. 7 years the same cycle. nobody has thought to end it..not until carver came.
so he’s reconstructing their relationship. he is destructing the one that exists…i’m glad. the one that exists has the brothers always living with guilt. it has sam believing he’s a failure to his brother. it has dean thinking sam doesn’t love him as much as dean loves sam. we the audience can see that’s not the case, because we get sam and dean’s perspective (for the most part, i know that sometimes that seems debatable), but sam and dean don’t get to see ea,. other’s pov.
this has been a resolution that was never resolved. ea. brother not understanding where the other is coming from. ea. feeling the way they do because of some deep rooted issue of……? for sam we’ve been finally told….and not until s8….it’s his feeling of failure. but what is it for dean? we’ve never really been told by kripke or gamble…what is it that makes dean hate himself so much? how long is this self hatred to go on? kripke, gamble neither one of them had an episode showing dean forgiving himself for any of the losses, and show has never had dean give any indication that he even likes what he sees in the mirror. that is the resolution that hasn’t been resolved and that for me is the key as to what makes dean tick.
seems one of the theme that carver is trying to finally abolish is the theme of burying crap…sweeping stuff under the rug, and never fully dealing with the true problem.
the one resolution that i feel kripke and co. have brought to the foreground and never dealt with regarding both boys is their self loathing and lack of worth. i think carver for the first time is dealing with this. and this for me is the key to a better relationship between the boys. a relationship without misperception and misunderstandings. one of acceptance and one of change. and with any hope one where the boys see worth in themselves the way ea. one sees worth in ea. other.
i will gladly enjoy the show for the both of us. 😉 i’m confident i won’t have to do that for long. i think you’ll find that joy….until then….chocolate and icecream helps. 😆
I hated 9×03 and 9×08. Both were full of OOC and offensive, crappy writing.
9×05 was meh, 9×12 was meh (I can’t stand Garth), 9×13 was quite okay (a POC nonhuman woman character who SURVIVED? Wow!).
9×11 was probably the best, 9×02, 9×10 and 9×01 closely behind. So, basically, the good writers + mytharc = good episode. Those Two Fuckers or Klein + anything = just fire them already.
I hated 9×03 and 9×08. Both were full of OOC and offensive, crappy writing.
9×05 was meh, 9×12 was meh (I can’t stand Garth), 9×13 was quite okay (a POC nonhuman woman character who SURVIVED? Wow!).
9×11 was probably the best, 9×02, 9×10 and 9×01 closely behind. So, basically, the good writers + mytharc = good episode. Those Two Fuckers or Klein + anything = just fire them already.
[quote name=”nappi815″]this season is amazing for me. i’m really happy where the boys are finally headed. it’s long over due. i just don’t understand such negative reaction to this season based on two comments from sam which seem to me to be totally justified and understandable given past history and what dean did to him.
i think it’s important to go back and rewatch the seasons, because if you do you might take notice that there has been more angst than not.
when was the last time sam laughed? can anyone remember a time where sam seemed happy. sure a smile here and there, but can someone pinpoint happiness in sam’s life…as a whole? .[/quote]
Off the top of my head all i can think of is S1: Hell House.
Nappi youve given me a lot to think about. A lot to hope for and look foreard to. Thank you for this. And i hope after everything you think will happen…does happen, that we can get another episode where Sam is genuinely happy and open. And Sam and Dean are happy and open with each other.
[quote]this season is amazing for me. i’m really happy where the boys are finally headed. it’s long over due. i just don’t understand such negative reaction to this season based on two comments from sam which seem to me to be totally justified and understandable given past history and what dean did to him.
i think it’s important to go back and rewatch the seasons, because if you do you might take notice that there has been more angst than not.
when was the last time sam laughed? can anyone remember a time where sam seemed happy. sure a smile here and there, but can someone pinpoint happiness in sam’s life…as a whole? .[/quote]
Off the top of my head all i can think of is S1: Hell House.
Nappi youve given me a lot to think about. A lot to hope for and look foreard to. Thank you for this. And i hope after everything you think will happen…does happen, that we can get another episode where Sam is genuinely happy and open. And Sam and Dean are happy and open with each other.
hey amyh….you’re welcome. and heck someone on this wonderful show of ours once said, where there’s a winchester there’s hope.
personally, i’m so very excited at the very notion that our boys will finally have the brotherly relationship i’ve always wanted for them. it’s so close. 🙂
hey amyh….you’re welcome. and heck someone on this wonderful show of ours once said, where there’s a winchester there’s hope.
personally, i’m so very excited at the very notion that our boys will finally have the brotherly relationship i’ve always wanted for them. it’s so close. 🙂
nappi, have I told you lately how much I appreciate your optimism? I pray you are right because that is also what I am hoping for. 🙂
nappi, have I told you lately how much I appreciate your optimism? I pray you are right because that is also what I am hoping for. 🙂
[quote name=”percysowner”][quote]So the groundwork was slowly being laid for the ultimate betrayal… Dean was betrayed by Gadreel. [/quote]
IMHO Dean being “betrayed” by Gadreel is not the ultimate betrayal. Betrayal comes from someone you have reason to trust. Dean had known Gadreel for a hot minute when he decided to trust him. Did Gadreel’s actions have the largest ramifications? Sure. But Dean got taken in by a conman conangel. There was a huge betrayal this season it started in episode one when Dean agreed that Gadreel could and should wipe Sam’s memory whenever it seemed like a good idea. It continued all the way through Kevin’s death and ended when Sam threw Gadreel out of his body. You see Dean as the victim here. I completely disagree.
I can not say how I will evaluate this season. So much will depend on where they go from here.[/quote]
I had the exact same reaction to that statement. 😀
[quote][quote]So the groundwork was slowly being laid for the ultimate betrayal… Dean was betrayed by Gadreel. [/quote]
IMHO Dean being “betrayed” by Gadreel is not the ultimate betrayal. Betrayal comes from someone you have reason to trust. Dean had known Gadreel for a hot minute when he decided to trust him. Did Gadreel’s actions have the largest ramifications? Sure. But Dean got taken in by a conman conangel. There was a huge betrayal this season it started in episode one when Dean agreed that Gadreel could and should wipe Sam’s memory whenever it seemed like a good idea. It continued all the way through Kevin’s death and ended when Sam threw Gadreel out of his body. You see Dean as the victim here. I completely disagree.
I can not say how I will evaluate this season. So much will depend on where they go from here.[/quote]
I had the exact same reaction to that statement. 😀
[quote name=”lacysos”][quote name=”percysowner”][quote]So the groundwork was slowly being laid for the ultimate betrayal… Dean was betrayed by Gadreel. [/quote]
IMHO Dean being “betrayed” by Gadreel is not the ultimate betrayal. Betrayal comes from someone you have reason to trust. Dean had known Gadreel for a hot minute when he decided to trust him. Did Gadreel’s actions have the largest ramifications? Sure. But Dean got taken in by a conman conangel. There was a huge betrayal this season it started in episode one when Dean agreed that Gadreel could and should wipe Sam’s memory whenever it seemed like a good idea. It continued all the way through Kevin’s death and ended when Sam threw Gadreel out of his body. You see Dean as the victim here. I completely disagree.
I can not say how I will evaluate this season. So much will depend on where they go from here.[/quote]
I had the exact same reaction to that statement. :D[/quote]
Met too! Who cares about Gadreel’s betrayal of Dean when compared to Dean’s betrayal of Sam? This issue has really been bugging me. Why does what Dean did to Sam get downplayed so much? Because it’s Dean and everything he does is accepted on its face? Given the nature of the brother’s relationship and their love for one another, how can anyone perceive what Dean did to Sam as less of a betrayal than what Gadreel did to Dean, I just don’t get….like, AT ALL. We weren’t invested in Gadreel at that time.. we knew nothing about him or what his potential motivations might be. Hell, we didn’t even really know who this angel that was going to ‘save’ Sam even was. We EXPECTED Dean to get betrayed because his decision was foolish, rash and dangerous. Dean was complicit in his his own betrayal by being rash and not thinking things through. What’s crazy here is that DEAN didn’t see the potential for betrayal himself; he’s a hunter for crying out loud, he knows angels are ‘dicks’ and not to be trusted, and he’s been betrayed by them over and over, even by Cas, pretty much the only angel in the garrison to have any integrity at all. He should have EXPECTED to be betrayed and planned out a contingency for when things went south.
Now, what Dean did to Sam was a true betrayal IMO. He is a trusted main character that we know and love and he understood that his actions were contrary to Sam’s wishes, and yet he betrayed those wishes knowingly and with the understanding that Sam would go along with what Dean asked of him simply because Sam trusted Dean as he always has. THAT is a true betrayal. It does Sam a HUGE disservice as a lead character to allow this plot point to be diminished in such a way. Dean did a terrible, terrible thing that he KNEW Sam would feel betrayed by, and he did it anyway because it was what HE wanted and didn’t care in that moment that he knew Sam WOUDLN’T want it. And the ultimate betrayal actually now lies in Dean’s unwillingness to see this betrayal for what it is; he’d “do it again” by his own admission, proving to Sam that he is not trusted by Dean, nor will he ever respect Sam’s wishes or let Sam follow through with his own decisions if they go against Deans. Sorry that this is so strongly stated, but it’s been a sticking point for me this season even though overall I am loving the story lines and feel that this season has great potential and some of the best plotting since season 4/5.
[quote][quote][quote]So the groundwork was slowly being laid for the ultimate betrayal… Dean was betrayed by Gadreel. [/quote]
IMHO Dean being “betrayed” by Gadreel is not the ultimate betrayal. Betrayal comes from someone you have reason to trust. Dean had known Gadreel for a hot minute when he decided to trust him. Did Gadreel’s actions have the largest ramifications? Sure. But Dean got taken in by a conman conangel. There was a huge betrayal this season it started in episode one when Dean agreed that Gadreel could and should wipe Sam’s memory whenever it seemed like a good idea. It continued all the way through Kevin’s death and ended when Sam threw Gadreel out of his body. You see Dean as the victim here. I completely disagree.
I can not say how I will evaluate this season. So much will depend on where they go from here.[/quote]
I had the exact same reaction to that statement. :D[/quote]
Met too! Who cares about Gadreel’s betrayal of Dean when compared to Dean’s betrayal of Sam? This issue has really been bugging me. Why does what Dean did to Sam get downplayed so much? Because it’s Dean and everything he does is accepted on its face? Given the nature of the brother’s relationship and their love for one another, how can anyone perceive what Dean did to Sam as less of a betrayal than what Gadreel did to Dean, I just don’t get….like, AT ALL. We weren’t invested in Gadreel at that time.. we knew nothing about him or what his potential motivations might be. Hell, we didn’t even really know who this angel that was going to ‘save’ Sam even was. We EXPECTED Dean to get betrayed because his decision was foolish, rash and dangerous. Dean was complicit in his his own betrayal by being rash and not thinking things through. What’s crazy here is that DEAN didn’t see the potential for betrayal himself; he’s a hunter for crying out loud, he knows angels are ‘dicks’ and not to be trusted, and he’s been betrayed by them over and over, even by Cas, pretty much the only angel in the garrison to have any integrity at all. He should have EXPECTED to be betrayed and planned out a contingency for when things went south.
Now, what Dean did to Sam was a true betrayal IMO. He is a trusted main character that we know and love and he understood that his actions were contrary to Sam’s wishes, and yet he betrayed those wishes knowingly and with the understanding that Sam would go along with what Dean asked of him simply because Sam trusted Dean as he always has. THAT is a true betrayal. It does Sam a HUGE disservice as a lead character to allow this plot point to be diminished in such a way. Dean did a terrible, terrible thing that he KNEW Sam would feel betrayed by, and he did it anyway because it was what HE wanted and didn’t care in that moment that he knew Sam WOUDLN’T want it. And the ultimate betrayal actually now lies in Dean’s unwillingness to see this betrayal for what it is; he’d “do it again” by his own admission, proving to Sam that he is not trusted by Dean, nor will he ever respect Sam’s wishes or let Sam follow through with his own decisions if they go against Deans. Sorry that this is so strongly stated, but it’s been a sticking point for me this season even though overall I am loving the story lines and feel that this season has great potential and some of the best plotting since season 4/5.
Season 9 so far has had a lot of ups and downs. (I can’t call it ‘Season Divine’ or season 8 ‘Season Gr8’, that sort of self-praise makes me cringe.) The ups have been pretty high, but the downs have been really, really low.
I find the ideas driving season 9 very interesting. Its posed an awful lot of thought provoking, unanswerable moral questions in relation to what is acceptable when it comes to saving a loved one, what defines love, what defines brother and family, what is violation, consent, heroism, etc. 9.01 to 9.03 were really good and set things up well. It showed Dean getting in deeper and deeper, Ezekiel was intriguing, and the cases were interesting. Then things took a lull.
I didn’t like [i]Slumber Party[/i], but I’m not a fan of Charlie in the slightest. I don’t find her endearing or heroic but unrealistic and phenomenally annoying. I’m kinda hoping she meets her demise in Oz. [i]Dog Dean Afternoon[/i] was entertaining enough; Dean was pretty funny as the dog. I found Sam’s dislike of dogs to be strange, given that he’s meant to be the dog lover. Perhaps dogs react to angels like they react to Terminators so that was more Ezekiels reaction! [i]Heaven Can’t Wait[/i] was fine, and Crowley injecting himself with blood was a real eye catcher. I hope they follow up on that and it doesn’t end up as one of the forgotten stories.
[i]Bad Boys[/i], I would have enjoyed were it not for its placement. For me, it came off as pure manipulation. It was like a huge ‘Look what Dean did for Sam, so how can Sam be angry when he finds out what Dean did?’ The over-emphasis and overly sympathetic view of the victimiser and zero point of view from the victim seriously irritated me. There seems to be a pattern that when Dean does something questionable, the show goes out of its way to soften the impact of his actions. We saw it last season with the Castiel staying behind in Purgatory idea and here with the placement of this episode. I mean, how dare Sam be mad at Dean for allowing an angel to possess him when Dean gave up his first dance for Sam!!
[i]Rock and a Hard Place[/i] was um, I don’t know. I like Sheriff Mills, she feels real. I like her earnestness in hunting and the fact that she’s a realist. She’ll do what she can but realises her limits. In direct contrast to Charlie (who probably would have saved everyone by seducing Vesta), the show doesn’t portray Jody as being a completely OTT superhero, merely someone who helps where she can because she can, she’s brave but not stupid. I didn’t like the whole Dean and Suzy scenario. I think a reviewer here described it as ‘skeavy’ and that’s what it was.
[i]Holy Terror[/i] left me cold, and it was just because of that one goddamn line ‘Yeah. She was hot.’ Jeez, a possessed woman was essentially raped and murdered but that was secondary to the fact that she was ‘hot’. It reminded me of something I read whereby they were arguing that being raped was a compliment to the victim because it meant they were found attractive enough to warrant that type of ‘attention’.
The rest of that episode was good. The Ezekiel reveal was well done and Kevin’s death was shockingly graphic and suitably poignant. It’s still that damn line that thoroughly taints the episode for me though!
[i]Road Trip[/i] was great, Crowley was excellent in it (I think he’s my new favourite character!) . That’s how you gain the upper hand, people. As Hitler said ‘If out-voting them takes longer than out-shooting them, then at least the results will be guaranteed by their own Constitution’ (or something like that). Abbadon with her kicking and screeching comes across as a petulant brat in comparison to him. I liked seeing Sam overcome Gadreel and expelling him by sheer force of will.
I’d mixed feelings about [i]First Born[/i]. Cain was definitely an intriguing character and the idea of Dean having the Mark of Cain is a great one, though the rewriting of his history so that he ‘saved’ his errant brother (who evidently committed the cardinal sin of Lucifer talking to him) was a bit ‘Oh for fuck sake, here we go again’. (I’d love to see a scene between Sam and Cain where Sam says ‘Hey Cain, did you ever think about maybe having a bit of faith in our brother, maybe trusting him to do the right thing, instead of just assuming that he’d do wrong?’ but I doubt that would happen…..) Probably best to wait and see how it plays out though.
[i]Sharp Teeth[/i] and [i]The Purge [/i]were pretty fun, though, as expected, the finals talks in each of them far outweighted the actual MOTW themselves. I’m one of those who appreciate the final discussions. I think they’re necessary. Earlier someone described the talks as ‘radiation’ and he/she was right.
Season 9 so far has had a lot of ups and downs. (I can’t call it ‘Season Divine’ or season 8 ‘Season Gr8’, that sort of self-praise makes me cringe.) The ups have been pretty high, but the downs have been really, really low.
I find the ideas driving season 9 very interesting. Its posed an awful lot of thought provoking, unanswerable moral questions in relation to what is acceptable when it comes to saving a loved one, what defines love, what defines brother and family, what is violation, consent, heroism, etc. 9.01 to 9.03 were really good and set things up well. It showed Dean getting in deeper and deeper, Ezekiel was intriguing, and the cases were interesting. Then things took a lull.
I didn’t like [i]Slumber Party[/i], but I’m not a fan of Charlie in the slightest. I don’t find her endearing or heroic but unrealistic and phenomenally annoying. I’m kinda hoping she meets her demise in Oz. [i]Dog Dean Afternoon[/i] was entertaining enough; Dean was pretty funny as the dog. I found Sam’s dislike of dogs to be strange, given that he’s meant to be the dog lover. Perhaps dogs react to angels like they react to Terminators so that was more Ezekiels reaction! [i]Heaven Can’t Wait[/i] was fine, and Crowley injecting himself with blood was a real eye catcher. I hope they follow up on that and it doesn’t end up as one of the forgotten stories.
[i]Bad Boys[/i], I would have enjoyed were it not for its placement. For me, it came off as pure manipulation. It was like a huge ‘Look what Dean did for Sam, so how can Sam be angry when he finds out what Dean did?’ The over-emphasis and overly sympathetic view of the victimiser and zero point of view from the victim seriously irritated me. There seems to be a pattern that when Dean does something questionable, the show goes out of its way to soften the impact of his actions. We saw it last season with the Castiel staying behind in Purgatory idea and here with the placement of this episode. I mean, how dare Sam be mad at Dean for allowing an angel to possess him when Dean gave up his first dance for Sam!!
[i]Rock and a Hard Place[/i] was um, I don’t know. I like Sheriff Mills, she feels real. I like her earnestness in hunting and the fact that she’s a realist. She’ll do what she can but realises her limits. In direct contrast to Charlie (who probably would have saved everyone by seducing Vesta), the show doesn’t portray Jody as being a completely OTT superhero, merely someone who helps where she can because she can, she’s brave but not stupid. I didn’t like the whole Dean and Suzy scenario. I think a reviewer here described it as ‘skeavy’ and that’s what it was.
[i]Holy Terror[/i] left me cold, and it was just because of that one goddamn line ‘Yeah. She was hot.’ Jeez, a possessed woman was essentially raped and murdered but that was secondary to the fact that she was ‘hot’. It reminded me of something I read whereby they were arguing that being raped was a compliment to the victim because it meant they were found attractive enough to warrant that type of ‘attention’.
The rest of that episode was good. The Ezekiel reveal was well done and Kevin’s death was shockingly graphic and suitably poignant. It’s still that damn line that thoroughly taints the episode for me though!
[i]Road Trip[/i] was great, Crowley was excellent in it (I think he’s my new favourite character!) . That’s how you gain the upper hand, people. As Hitler said ‘If out-voting them takes longer than out-shooting them, then at least the results will be guaranteed by their own Constitution’ (or something like that). Abbadon with her kicking and screeching comes across as a petulant brat in comparison to him. I liked seeing Sam overcome Gadreel and expelling him by sheer force of will.
I’d mixed feelings about [i]First Born[/i]. Cain was definitely an intriguing character and the idea of Dean having the Mark of Cain is a great one, though the rewriting of his history so that he ‘saved’ his errant brother (who evidently committed the cardinal sin of Lucifer talking to him) was a bit ‘Oh for fuck sake, here we go again’. (I’d love to see a scene between Sam and Cain where Sam says ‘Hey Cain, did you ever think about maybe having a bit of faith in our brother, maybe trusting him to do the right thing, instead of just assuming that he’d do wrong?’ but I doubt that would happen…..) Probably best to wait and see how it plays out though.
[i]Sharp Teeth[/i] and [i]The Purge [/i]were pretty fun, though, as expected, the finals talks in each of them far outweighted the actual MOTW themselves. I’m one of those who appreciate the final discussions. I think they’re necessary. Earlier someone described the talks as ‘radiation’ and he/she was right.
In relation to whether or not season 9 deserves the moniker, I don’t know. It hasn’t grabbed me like season 1-7 did. On more than one occasion I haven’t watched the episode until hours after it was aired (despite being awake and having nothing else to do).
I tentatively like where the season is going but there’s a lot of trepidation there because, in truth, I don’t particularly trust the writers or the showrunner to do justice to the huge, and delicate, issues they’ve raised. I know I’ll be told to ‘trust them’ but I don’t.
The whole issue of violation is a big thing. It’s the theme of the season and it’s a mindset that has been exhibited by most of the characters. Dean with Sam, Castiel (unknowingly) with April and even Kevin got in on the act when he got info by threatening to reveal intimate photos of a female sergeant, and then, [i]after[/i] he was done humiliating her, he furthers it by making her call him ‘Sir’. (Man, I really wanted to kick Kevin after that). I know this type of violation has happened on SPN in the past (every time a person is possessed or lied to they’re violated) but this season it’s so overt it’s uncomfortably seedy and for me, getting difficult to watch. In the past, Sam and Dean would have felt some guilt or discomfort or said something to temper what they had done, but no more. Now the violation is rewarded and applauded. It’s seen as a good thing. The act itself is trivialised and often turned into a joke, as was evident by the ‘Teen Mom’ and ‘She was hot’ remarks.
Carvers talk of throwing lots of things against the wall and seeing what sticks doesn’t inspire me because a hell of a lot will initially stick to the wall and it’ll gradually fall off, some of them unnoticed. There’s a lot stuck to the wall at the moment, almost too much, so I’m expecting some of it to just fall away unseen, the question is which ones? The possession one is one they could dismiss pretty quickly because it will truly never be resolved until the show ends.
I like the new characters. Gadreel intrigues me, and I find him complex and wholly sympathetic. He’s hugely conflicted. Guy was given a job, he made one mistake, trusted the wrong being and he paid for it in the most horrific way for millennia. Did the punishment fit the crime, or for some can there be no redemption? Castiel was certainly blaming him for everything that had ever gone wrong. Now he’s trying to do right by the angels he felt he let down by helping them back into their home. There are huge parallels between Gadreel and Sam and Dean so I’m hoping we get a hell of a lot more from him and he doesn’t end up as a stereotypical, moustache twirling baddie.
Metatron is deliciously bad. He’s the kind of baddie you just want to see get his comeuppance, and you hope that his fall will be as embarrassing as possible for him. Abbadon is unfortunately all bluster but the return of Crowley has more than made up for it.
Re Sam and Dean, I’m less positive. I’m appreciating Sam more as a character because he has shown growth. He learns from the past and strives not to make the same mistakes, regardless of what they cost him personally. That being said, I feel it redundant to discuss Sam as a character [i]because[/i] he changes so much and very few of the steps to brought about this change are shown. Sam is showing resolve today but it could be gone tomorrow and we’ll be back to the same old wallpaper Sam. There’s not enough of Sam as a character to be [i]able[/i] to discuss Sam because too much of Sam discussion is based on human psychology, not as a TV character. Sam imploding makes perfect sense, but not in TV land. Sam’s reasons for not bring Dean back, for not looking for Dean, make perfect sense, but they’re given no time in TV land because human psychology is too complex for a TV show such as SPN to deal with. So while Sam is fun to discuss, I’m also finding it futile to discuss him because he gets so little exposition or clarity.
It’s the opposite with Dean. There’s a sameness about him that is boring me at this stage because he doesn’t change. His predictability is off-putting so there’s nothing worthy of discussion with him. We don’t discuss Dean as a character, we discuss the consequences of what Dean does. In a way I think that the character of Dean has suffered a lot more under Carver than Sam has and he’s being crippled by an over-saturation of POV. Dean needs time away from the POV so that he [i]as a character[/i] can be speculated on. At the moment there’s no point discussing him because we’re being spoon fed every teeny tiny detail.
We’re more than halfway through the season, there’s a hell of a lot left to deal with so it will be interesting to see exactly what they decide to deal with in the time they have left.
In relation to whether or not season 9 deserves the moniker, I don’t know. It hasn’t grabbed me like season 1-7 did. On more than one occasion I haven’t watched the episode until hours after it was aired (despite being awake and having nothing else to do).
I tentatively like where the season is going but there’s a lot of trepidation there because, in truth, I don’t particularly trust the writers or the showrunner to do justice to the huge, and delicate, issues they’ve raised. I know I’ll be told to ‘trust them’ but I don’t.
The whole issue of violation is a big thing. It’s the theme of the season and it’s a mindset that has been exhibited by most of the characters. Dean with Sam, Castiel (unknowingly) with April and even Kevin got in on the act when he got info by threatening to reveal intimate photos of a female sergeant, and then, [i]after[/i] he was done humiliating her, he furthers it by making her call him ‘Sir’. (Man, I really wanted to kick Kevin after that). I know this type of violation has happened on SPN in the past (every time a person is possessed or lied to they’re violated) but this season it’s so overt it’s uncomfortably seedy and for me, getting difficult to watch. In the past, Sam and Dean would have felt some guilt or discomfort or said something to temper what they had done, but no more. Now the violation is rewarded and applauded. It’s seen as a good thing. The act itself is trivialised and often turned into a joke, as was evident by the ‘Teen Mom’ and ‘She was hot’ remarks.
Carvers talk of throwing lots of things against the wall and seeing what sticks doesn’t inspire me because a hell of a lot will initially stick to the wall and it’ll gradually fall off, some of them unnoticed. There’s a lot stuck to the wall at the moment, almost too much, so I’m expecting some of it to just fall away unseen, the question is which ones? The possession one is one they could dismiss pretty quickly because it will truly never be resolved until the show ends.
I like the new characters. Gadreel intrigues me, and I find him complex and wholly sympathetic. He’s hugely conflicted. Guy was given a job, he made one mistake, trusted the wrong being and he paid for it in the most horrific way for millennia. Did the punishment fit the crime, or for some can there be no redemption? Castiel was certainly blaming him for everything that had ever gone wrong. Now he’s trying to do right by the angels he felt he let down by helping them back into their home. There are huge parallels between Gadreel and Sam and Dean so I’m hoping we get a hell of a lot more from him and he doesn’t end up as a stereotypical, moustache twirling baddie.
Metatron is deliciously bad. He’s the kind of baddie you just want to see get his comeuppance, and you hope that his fall will be as embarrassing as possible for him. Abbadon is unfortunately all bluster but the return of Crowley has more than made up for it.
Re Sam and Dean, I’m less positive. I’m appreciating Sam more as a character because he has shown growth. He learns from the past and strives not to make the same mistakes, regardless of what they cost him personally. That being said, I feel it redundant to discuss Sam as a character [i]because[/i] he changes so much and very few of the steps to brought about this change are shown. Sam is showing resolve today but it could be gone tomorrow and we’ll be back to the same old wallpaper Sam. There’s not enough of Sam as a character to be [i]able[/i] to discuss Sam because too much of Sam discussion is based on human psychology, not as a TV character. Sam imploding makes perfect sense, but not in TV land. Sam’s reasons for not bring Dean back, for not looking for Dean, make perfect sense, but they’re given no time in TV land because human psychology is too complex for a TV show such as SPN to deal with. So while Sam is fun to discuss, I’m also finding it futile to discuss him because he gets so little exposition or clarity.
It’s the opposite with Dean. There’s a sameness about him that is boring me at this stage because he doesn’t change. His predictability is off-putting so there’s nothing worthy of discussion with him. We don’t discuss Dean as a character, we discuss the consequences of what Dean does. In a way I think that the character of Dean has suffered a lot more under Carver than Sam has and he’s being crippled by an over-saturation of POV. Dean needs time away from the POV so that he [i]as a character[/i] can be speculated on. At the moment there’s no point discussing him because we’re being spoon fed every teeny tiny detail.
We’re more than halfway through the season, there’s a hell of a lot left to deal with so it will be interesting to see exactly what they decide to deal with in the time they have left.
I just wanted to briely pop out of lurkdom to say, [b]st50[/b], I completely understand your feelings and couldn’t agree more w/both your posts. Just like you, I have not been happy w/Carver’s reign. IMO, he is twisting the characters into characters I don’t know or understand, flipping the show’s message into one I do not support, and retreading old ground.
I’m not sure what he is hoping to accomplish w/the brothers’ relationship – my reason for watching. I see him chipping away at it, and I’m left wondering what’s the point. Once he “matures” all the characters, will I even want to watch? For me, he’s batting zero when it comes to his time as showrunner. It’s cool if others are enjoying his reign. I wish I could say the same.
And I don’t mind brother conflict, but with each new conflict, I’m left wondering why these two are still together. They are both in their 30s. Neither [i]has [/i]to stay w/the other. If Sam finds Dean so terrible, he can leave. If Dean can’t stand Sam, he can go. Why stay together and make each other miserable? That doesn’t even make sense to me. How realistic is it that these two are together right now? Not every realistic at all to me.
Anyway, as of now, I feel Carver has done irreparable damage to the core relationship so at this point I don’t really care what happens or how the season ends. What I want to see happen (i.e., the boys splitting up and staying apart until there is an actual real reason for them to reunite) is not going to happen, so this whole exercise has been drama for the sake of drama, IMO.
And maybe if the brothers hadn’t been at odds since S4 in some form or fashion, I’d be okay w/that drama, but they have. It’s boring and repetitive. It also doesn’t help that I feel their problems aren’t organic. It’s all very contrived. For me, the boys were fine at the end of S7. I didn’t think they had a whole host of problems to resolve. Carver came to show and created issues btw them. At least that’s how I see it. I know miles vary and all.
Anyway, I just wanted to throw some support your way 🙂
I just wanted to briely pop out of lurkdom to say, [b]st50[/b], I completely understand your feelings and couldn’t agree more w/both your posts. Just like you, I have not been happy w/Carver’s reign. IMO, he is twisting the characters into characters I don’t know or understand, flipping the show’s message into one I do not support, and retreading old ground.
I’m not sure what he is hoping to accomplish w/the brothers’ relationship – my reason for watching. I see him chipping away at it, and I’m left wondering what’s the point. Once he “matures” all the characters, will I even want to watch? For me, he’s batting zero when it comes to his time as showrunner. It’s cool if others are enjoying his reign. I wish I could say the same.
And I don’t mind brother conflict, but with each new conflict, I’m left wondering why these two are still together. They are both in their 30s. Neither [i]has [/i]to stay w/the other. If Sam finds Dean so terrible, he can leave. If Dean can’t stand Sam, he can go. Why stay together and make each other miserable? That doesn’t even make sense to me. How realistic is it that these two are together right now? Not every realistic at all to me.
Anyway, as of now, I feel Carver has done irreparable damage to the core relationship so at this point I don’t really care what happens or how the season ends. What I want to see happen (i.e., the boys splitting up and staying apart until there is an actual real reason for them to reunite) is not going to happen, so this whole exercise has been drama for the sake of drama, IMO.
And maybe if the brothers hadn’t been at odds since S4 in some form or fashion, I’d be okay w/that drama, but they have. It’s boring and repetitive. It also doesn’t help that I feel their problems aren’t organic. It’s all very contrived. For me, the boys were fine at the end of S7. I didn’t think they had a whole host of problems to resolve. Carver came to show and created issues btw them. At least that’s how I see it. I know miles vary and all.
Anyway, I just wanted to throw some support your way 🙂
[b]Tim[/b] Sometimes you and I share a brain. I too am not fond of Charlie. I don’t need her to die in Oz, because then Dean would have more things to feel guilty about, but she can stay there and have adventures with Dorothy. Adventures that are less boring than real hunting, since she wants more dragons and less of what is really out there.
I totally agree about [i]Bad Boys[/i] it felt very much like a white wash for Dean. “Look what he gave up for Sam”. What bothered me was the real implications were totally ignored. Although I really can’t imagine that Sonny could have gotten Dean away from John, if he had, Sam would probably have been taken away as well, so Dean would have saved them both, even if Sam ended up in another home. It’s the same thing with [i]First Born[/i] Dean gets linked to Cain both metaphorically and physically and suddenly Cain is the wise older brother going to Hell to save the soul of the foolish, STUPID younger brother who could not be trusted to make the right decision. I actually hope that Sam runs into Abel at some point just to get his input on the whole “getting murdered by his brother to keep him from making his own decision” thing.
The treatment of April in Holy Terror was horrible. I do love Crowley and I pretty well always have. I love the idea that Crowley has a real handle that running Hell is a full time job to be done, not a prize to be won and then left.
I do think the talks are a necessary beginning to sorting out the relationship between Sam and Dean. I hope this goes in the direction of Dean actually looking at his choices and seeing the ways they are destructive. I’m hoping for more of a POV for Sam and some change for Dean.
[b]Tim[/b] Sometimes you and I share a brain. I too am not fond of Charlie. I don’t need her to die in Oz, because then Dean would have more things to feel guilty about, but she can stay there and have adventures with Dorothy. Adventures that are less boring than real hunting, since she wants more dragons and less of what is really out there.
I totally agree about [i]Bad Boys[/i] it felt very much like a white wash for Dean. “Look what he gave up for Sam”. What bothered me was the real implications were totally ignored. Although I really can’t imagine that Sonny could have gotten Dean away from John, if he had, Sam would probably have been taken away as well, so Dean would have saved them both, even if Sam ended up in another home. It’s the same thing with [i]First Born[/i] Dean gets linked to Cain both metaphorically and physically and suddenly Cain is the wise older brother going to Hell to save the soul of the foolish, STUPID younger brother who could not be trusted to make the right decision. I actually hope that Sam runs into Abel at some point just to get his input on the whole “getting murdered by his brother to keep him from making his own decision” thing.
The treatment of April in Holy Terror was horrible. I do love Crowley and I pretty well always have. I love the idea that Crowley has a real handle that running Hell is a full time job to be done, not a prize to be won and then left.
I do think the talks are a necessary beginning to sorting out the relationship between Sam and Dean. I hope this goes in the direction of Dean actually looking at his choices and seeing the ways they are destructive. I’m hoping for more of a POV for Sam and some change for Dean.
After the first episode, I got my hopes up. They lessened as the season went on but they went higher then ever after Holy Terror. It was such a perfect payoff. Road Trip was good. I thought the Dean parts of First Born were fantastic. But I’m worried about where they are going.
I loved the squickyness of the Dean tricking Sam. The Gadreel possession was cool. The Mark of Cain seems awesome and has lots of potential. But I have lots of issues too.
It’s not the angst that’s getting me. I LOVE good angst. Season 5 is one of my absolute favorites. But this isn’t working for me so far the way there doing it. A lot of it will depend on how the rest of the season is handled. I HATE that Sam is being hung out to dry. He is the wronged one, but Dean is coming off more sympathetic. Yes Dean said incredibly hurtful mean things in season 5 but we knew exactly where he was coming from. Sam just keeps giving these cryptic or half statements and walking off.
And I don’t like that they’ve seemingly chosen to focus on Dean not letting Sam die as the main issue when clearly it was HOW he kept him alive that was the problem. But by Sam’s linking Sacrifice to it twice now, he’s implying it’s the same situation. When they are completely different. In Sacrifice, Sam had all the facts and chose to live for Dean. He made that choice. But this time he was tricked and betrayed and had no idea what he was agreeing to.
I truly hope I’m wrong that this is the line of thought they’ve decided to focus on, because not only is this sketchy. I don’t see a satisfactory outcome.
I’m getting more and more concerned where this “mature” storyline is taking us. I do want the brothers to grow and learn from their mistakes but I also want them to be as passionately committed to one another as they have always been. I’m fine with them not saving each other at all costs but if they choose not to, I want to know why and I want to see the emotional fallout. But if Sam in season 8 and 9 is an example of what they are going for than I’m going to be thoroughly depressed. Of course it is hard to say for sure what they are going for with him since he almost never gets to explain himself.
I’m hoping the “not letting him die” is either a red herring or simple the issue they are tackling first. But Sam’s voice in this (and pretty much the last 2 seasons-well especially the last 2 seasons) has sucked so far, so I’m reluctant to count on that too much.
I pretty much in a holding pattern until I see more.
After the first episode, I got my hopes up. They lessened as the season went on but they went higher then ever after Holy Terror. It was such a perfect payoff. Road Trip was good. I thought the Dean parts of First Born were fantastic. But I’m worried about where they are going.
I loved the squickyness of the Dean tricking Sam. The Gadreel possession was cool. The Mark of Cain seems awesome and has lots of potential. But I have lots of issues too.
It’s not the angst that’s getting me. I LOVE good angst. Season 5 is one of my absolute favorites. But this isn’t working for me so far the way there doing it. A lot of it will depend on how the rest of the season is handled. I HATE that Sam is being hung out to dry. He is the wronged one, but Dean is coming off more sympathetic. Yes Dean said incredibly hurtful mean things in season 5 but we knew exactly where he was coming from. Sam just keeps giving these cryptic or half statements and walking off.
And I don’t like that they’ve seemingly chosen to focus on Dean not letting Sam die as the main issue when clearly it was HOW he kept him alive that was the problem. But by Sam’s linking Sacrifice to it twice now, he’s implying it’s the same situation. When they are completely different. In Sacrifice, Sam had all the facts and chose to live for Dean. He made that choice. But this time he was tricked and betrayed and had no idea what he was agreeing to.
I truly hope I’m wrong that this is the line of thought they’ve decided to focus on, because not only is this sketchy. I don’t see a satisfactory outcome.
I’m getting more and more concerned where this “mature” storyline is taking us. I do want the brothers to grow and learn from their mistakes but I also want them to be as passionately committed to one another as they have always been. I’m fine with them not saving each other at all costs but if they choose not to, I want to know why and I want to see the emotional fallout. But if Sam in season 8 and 9 is an example of what they are going for than I’m going to be thoroughly depressed. Of course it is hard to say for sure what they are going for with him since he almost never gets to explain himself.
I’m hoping the “not letting him die” is either a red herring or simple the issue they are tackling first. But Sam’s voice in this (and pretty much the last 2 seasons-well especially the last 2 seasons) has sucked so far, so I’m reluctant to count on that too much.
I pretty much in a holding pattern until I see more.
It’s certainly been divine as in angels have played such a major role, and it’s been by no means a bad season, but we knew it was going to be a hard act to follow coming off of season G8. As a season this one is a low for me alongside a lot of season four (yes I know [i]sacriledge!)[/i], but Supernatural at it’s lowest is still miles ahead of most TV.
I know seasons six and seven were many a viewers bane, but clearly I share at least Ben Edlund and/or Sara Gamble’s styles of humor. My Hulu que has 3 distinct flavors: Supernatural/Haven/Castle/Bones, Community/30 Rock/New Girl, and anything Anthony Bourdain. I guess that makes sense. LOL
It’s certainly been divine as in angels have played such a major role, and it’s been by no means a bad season, but we knew it was going to be a hard act to follow coming off of season G8. As a season this one is a low for me alongside a lot of season four (yes I know [i]sacriledge!)[/i], but Supernatural at it’s lowest is still miles ahead of most TV.
I know seasons six and seven were many a viewers bane, but clearly I share at least Ben Edlund and/or Sara Gamble’s styles of humor. My Hulu que has 3 distinct flavors: Supernatural/Haven/Castle/Bones, Community/30 Rock/New Girl, and anything Anthony Bourdain. I guess that makes sense. LOL