10 (out of a possible 100) Reasons Why I’m Excited For “Supernatural” Season 8
It’s getting so close guys,.can you feel it? The new season is almost upon us, so I thought I’d share just a few of the reasons that I’m excited about season 8. Of course, there’s a whole bunch of reasons, but here’s 10 (out of a possible 100) that have me really pumped!
10.Purgatory. Having been to VanCon last month, I’ve now been to some of the “Supernatural” locations, including Purgatory! I’m excited to see Purgatory play a major part, in at least, the first half of the season and picture myself standing there (complete with blue paint splatter up my leg from stepping on an unexploded paintball round). I love the idea of Purgatory. I want to see another “Supernatural” Universe. We’ve briefly visited Heaven, we’ve tap-danced around Hell,not literally of course, but we’ve never had a really good look at any of the other plains that play a significant role in the show’s mythology. Until now. So many of the creatures we’ve met over the years, would’ve been sent to Purgatory by Sam and Dean. Getting to see this dark place, understand what lives there, how it affects Dean and how it affects Cass, what the outcome is for both of these characters, feels new and fresh and fascinating. Put simply, Purgatory has me jazzed!
9.Epic Winchester reunion complete with hug. Is there anything better than a Winchester hug? (Well, maybe a J2 hug with me in the middle). I love it when these boys reunite after an absence and this one looks to be all smiley Dean and slightly startled Sam. Of course, this time around their separation was thrust upon them, so the dynamic feels different. Plus, after the last bitter/sweet back from The Cage hug and Sam’s soul reinsertion after trying to kill Bobby hug, both from season 6, we deserve a really hearty back from the dead, honest to goodness, both of them happy to see each other hug, don’t you think? Yes we do. Beyond the hug though, I’m also looking forward to seeing how the brothers traverse this unchartered territory of being split up, not by choice and having to fend for and discovering they can fend for themselves, without the support of each other. What affect is this going to have on them and who they are as a team? It makes me nervous, because Lord knows there’ll be angst. But it’s a good thing right? That they can survive without the other one? It is. Really. I hope they see that (Dean, are you listening?), as they find each other again. But first,let’s hug it out Winchester style, arms wrapped up high around each other’s shoulders and eyes closed.
8.Jensen’s latest directing effort. Jensen’s a talented guy and I love watching him progress creatively. It doesn’t help that I’m somewhat smitten with him. (Somewhat!? I hear you all say out loud). Having been at his Q&A recently, I heard him speak about how difficult it was directing this time around. How he had to juggle his large acting load with the load associated with directing this complex show. How it was difficult to perform Dean, having to find his footing with his character, while trying to ensure he was meeting everyone’s needs as director. He was in Dean headspace and yet everyone was looking to him for guidance. Flipping gears like that must be tremendously draining. It’s a tricky balancing act, when you have to produce your own creative output, while overseeing and guiding everyone else’s and trying to answer everyone’s questions. Lots of plates spinning on sticks! I want see and be all proud and stuff. Of course, I bet it looks like he waltzes it in. The guy seems to be good at everything,except drawing, thank goodness he can’t draw,.because that would be ridiculous!
7.Hear Baby roar. Or maybe I should say purrrrrrrr. We really didn’t get a chance to see Baby in all her new hotted up glory at the end of season 7, because she was there, then she was crashing through a sign and then we were out. Boo. So I’m excited to see Baby back on the road and how pretty she’s looking after her makeover. Every girl loves a makeover right? Maybe now they won’t have to over dub some other car noise into her scenes, because her shiny new awesomeness will sound awesome enough! I can’t wait to see the boys, driver and shotgun, back cruising the roads in Dean’s Baby. Ahhhhh,it’ll feel like the balance has been restored to the world.
6. New characters. Okay, I’ll admit the Sam’s girlfriend character concept gives me a tiny case of the nervous weebs, but I’m still excited to see how that all pans out and how the brothers deal with this new relationship and what Sam’s new take on life is. I actually kind of like the idea of Sam being all domesticated and happy,.but, you know, not for too long! A fangirl has her limits! But I’m probably more excited about the new regular characters I’ve read about in the spoilers. You know whom I’m talking about. I’m not going to talk about them here. I don’t want to ruin it for those who avoid spoilers like the zombie plague. Let’s just say I’m excited and leave it at that. As much as I love the brothers, as much as to me they are the heart and soul of everything, I do like other characters in their Universe and with Bobby gone,for now,and Cass’ fate currently unknown,well a few more people in the Winchester’s world to stir the pot has to be a good thing, even if they’re bad. Oh and the dog,.Sam and a dog is going to be seriously the cutest thing ever right?
5. Sam’s hair. Speaking of Sam. How epic is his hair? Its gloriousness is only matched by Sam’s gloriousness. I want to run my hands though it and softly nuzzle it,wait,was that my out-loud voice? I miss those 70’s sidies, but his shiny, flowing locks are pretty much making up for it. I’m hoping for a bit of running,so I can see those locks whooshing around in the breeze, maybe in slomo. Too much? I know this is terribly trivial, but every time I see a photo or anything season 8 related, I let out a hearty sigh at Sam’s hair. It’s just so gosh darn pretty.
4. Edlund’s Vampirates. I love Edlund. LOVE HIM. I was bidding on that charity lunch thing with him, but when it climbed into the thousands I had to remind myself that food is also good and in the long run, probably more important to my existence, but only marginally. It closed at $3850 by the way,in case you were wondering. I’m ridiculously excited for Ben’s first episode of the season, the one Guy directed, episode 5, the one I saw them shooting (squeeeee). All of Ben’s interviews at Comic Con made me giggle, mostly because he giggled. It’s the first episode he’s ever turned in on time! Also, he said he wrote a scene with Dean on a beach. ON A BEACH. Dean! I’m assuming he won’t be in his boardies, flipping a Frisbee, but still! Dean. On a beach! Did I mention I love Edlund?
3. Bad-Ass Dean. Speaking of Dean. We’ve suffered through morose Dean for quite some time now. Patiently waiting for him to pull himself out of the black hole he seemed to be falling deeper into with each episode. Every so often there’d be a glimmer of that smart-ass, bad-assed Dean Winchester we love so much, but then, back to funk city. Which is nowhere near funky town. He’s been through the ringer,since he was 4 really,and he’s a grow’d up man and I don’t need him being all flippant left and right and I don’t expect him to be who he once was. He’s matured (rather nicely I might add) and for him to not have grown and become somewhat world-weary would be ridiculous. But, I just want him to rediscover his mojo. To realise that what he does, though difficult and tragic, is epic in its importance. That he’s an amazing human being. That he’s a good person. That he’s got a beautiful heart and a deep well of a soul. That he’s not some evil killing machine. That he’s loved. That he’s a hero. That he’s DEAN WINCHESTER God damn it! I’ll take Dean anyway you give him to me. Happy, sad, depressed, drunk, partially clad,.. but my favourite Dean KICKS BUTT and digs it. My favourite Dean is all guns blazing. My favourite Dean is clever, with an inappropriately timed smart-mouth and quick as a whip humour. I want him to be happy,or at least accepting and learning to live with,his past, his future, and his life as a hunter. I don’t want him getting up and faking that damn smile every day., because, that’s just too painful to think about. I’m feeling a little optimistic that maybe my hopes and prayers might be answered. Some of the comments I read that Jensen has made about Dean in season 8 made it sound like maybe, just maybe, Dean might be getting back on track. Maybe, just maybe, in season 8 we’ll see him rediscover his Deanness. Oh that would be so neat. Mr Carver, are you listening?
2. Jeremy Carver. Speaking of Carver. Jeremy Carver was one of my favourite writers during his first stint on “Supernatural”. He has that special skill of balancing the humour, with the emotion and the mythology. Not all the writers can do that. Some should stay away from mythology all together (*cough* Dabb and Loflin). Some should steer clear of Winchestery moments (*cough* Adam Glass). But there are a few, Carver included, who can balance all the things that make “Supernatural” the brilliant show it is. Season 6 and season 7 were,. patchy. 7 was better than 6. I enjoyed both, but there were times where the show felt,. unfocused. I don’t blame any one person, I know better than that and a lot of what’s rolled out in the last 2 seasons was about the show finding its feet after the 5 season arc finished and Kripke stepped down. Carver had me at hello. But he really had me when he spoke about the brothers being the centre of the show and the heart of “Supernatural”. That he felt the mythology had become too thick. That there was no longer enough humour in the series. That he wants to recapture the Winchester’s relationship and lighten the tone, recapture the magic that made us fall in love with them and this show in the first place. He wants to recognise that the brothers are now men, no longer boys and that this will have changed them as people and how they interact with each other. Every single word that’s come out of Carver’s mouth since he was announced as the new show-runner has got me buzzing. Changing show-runners is a big deal and if it wasn’t him, I may be nervous. But I’m not. Not in the slightest. He launched Being Human US and did a great job with that show and he understands the dynamics of the brother’s relationship and what makes “Supernatural” great. Kripke said, “I love that Jeremy came back, he learned the family business, went off, and now has come back to the family business ““ just like Sam!” Yep. Welcome home Jeremy.
1. Because it’s “Supernatural”. D’UH! I LOVE THIS SHOW! OF COURSE I’M EXCITED!
What are you guys all looking forward to? Are you excited, nervous?
Oh one last thing,. THE HIATUS IN NEARLY OVER! Eeeeeeee!
– sweetondean
The buzz is DEFINITELY in the air. Oh, sweetondean I just love what you say and how you say it. Hilariously!!
Bring on Season 8.
[i]”I’ll take Dean anyway you give him to me. Happy, sad, depressed, drunk, partially clad….. “[/i]
I love this line! It is so typically, wonderfully [b]YOU[/b]!
Thank you so much for sharing your enthusiasm with us yet again.
I’m stoked!
Lovely article. I agree with all your points. The only slight caveat I have is with Dean finding his mojo. I want him to stop spinning his wheels in depressive mode, but as you say, he’s got to have scars from the last seven years. If he comes out guns ablazin’, which it sounds like he will, I want there to be layers underneath where he doubts and questions. I want a Dean who wants things to be black and white, but who knows they aren’t.
I also hope Jeremy Carver finds a good balance between lightness and humour and an exploration of things that matter. Supernatural hits on all cylinders when it draws on all these aspects, rather than choosing one or the other. I want to have lighthearted brother moments, but just as much I want to care deeply about choices the brothers are forced to make, when there is no good choice, only least bad.
With Carver and Edlund onboard, I have great hopes. Hopefully, Carver will have firm hand on some of the writers who’ve been missing the boat a bit too often.
As if I needed to feel even more excited about this coming season! I agree with everything, and I’m especially pumped for season 8 Sammy!
Well written and well thought out article, I loved every point and it was explained so well that it now has my toes tingling waiting for the start of the season.
I love reading from people who obviously love the core of supernatural.
thanks
I’ve read some great articles on this website. One of my hopes for S8 is to go back to the color/lighting of the first few seasons. One of the things about S7 that really bothered me was the changes in the shows lighting and color intensity. The colors and lighting seemed to be slightly muted in S1-S3 and I really think it added to the drama and emotional depth of the show. S7 was so bright it was more like watching an odd sitcom at times. The office settings were lifeless. May S8 set things straight.
Debbie, completely agree with that. The grittier look of the early years was much more appropriate and was one of the shows signatures. I miss that too, not sure why they changed it.
[quote]Debbie, completely agree with that. The grittier look of the early years was much more appropriate and was one of the shows signatures. I miss that too, not sure why they changed it.[/quote]
OK, I can’t remember whether it was Alice Jester or Bardicvoice who explained this to me several months ago when I said the exact same thing about loving “the look” of the earliest seasons. Turns out it has to do with[i] progress[/i]! You see as the technology of the camera evolves, film crews are able to get higher resolution. In Seasons 1 through 3, they were using “old” cameras that have the grainy, darker look that fits the mood of SPN perfectly. I am pretty sure it was in Seasons 4 and 5 that they switched to using newer technology, newer cameras – and as a result you will notice that the picture looks less grainy, the colors are brighter and that J2 start wearing more makeup to cover up any skin imperfections. Then again in Season 6 and 7, they switched again to the newest digital cameras available, and once again the picture becomes crisper and easier to see when filming in the dark.
As it was explained to me, this is “progress” in technology.
Unfortunately for many of us die hard fans, we LOVED the “look” of the OLD camera work! I am right there with you, Debbie and Leah D.
Thanks suzee51, you know I vaguely recall that now. Sometimes things don’t stick in my memory as well as before. It’s a plus when rereading a book or rewatching a movie/show, I can be surprised all over again!! 🙂
You’d think with all the new technology they could find a way to mute the color
It’s true that they’ve moved away from film to HD digital format. The cameras they use now record the images as files which are then delivered for post production via drives. This means access to the content for visual effects and editing is much quicker, as these files are compatible with the finishing technology. You can just upload the raw digital video files straight into the Avid editing tool and BAM start cutting. The other thing about the new cameras is they’re small. Film cameras and even early HD cameras were chunky. The cameras they’re using now are tiny in comparison. In fact, they’ve used a Canon 5D in the past for the harness work, where the camera is harnessed onto the actor and pointing directly at them. You can see this in the scene where Dean is drugged by the Djinn and is trying to recover on the floor and also in the scene where we are looking straight up into Dean’s face as he tries to get away from the assassin fairy. A 5D looks like you’re average DSLR camera. It’s not their everyday camera (I think they may use Arriflex), but I know that they do use it for various setups. Because of the size of new cameras, they have a lot more choice with shot composition, because the cameras can now tuck in areas that in the past they wouldn’t fit. You may notice we have a new Impala interior shot from the backseat, where you feel like you are riding between the boys. It’s one of my favourite shots. The first time we saw it was in “Two And A Half Men” but I noticed that they also used this set up in “Defending Your Life”. It feels real intimate, like you’re in the conversation. Part of being able to do a shot like this would be because now they have the room to get right in there with the new cameras.
With the HD digital format you do loose that grain and the old school feel of film because there is a lot more information stored for each frame of vision, so you get a lot more detail, hence the makeup. HD shows everything. But, you can still grade the digital format vision. You can see this in episodes like “Frontierland” and the tones Guy chose for the Western scenes or “Changing Channels” with the different grades between the different shows. The over-saturation of the sitcom for example. The pictures can be colour graded however you like. Generally this is a creative decision by the director or whomever is in charge of the overall creative look of the project/show. But you can pull out the colour and desaturate the images, you can also add in grain to give the imagery a more filmic look, it’s never like film, but it can feel film adjacent! They would be doing a lot of this to their pictures already because the raw video files are just that, raw. They still total control over how the end pictures look.
So, where I’m rambling to is, though you can never recapture that lovely, grainy vibe of film, you can go a long way towards recreating it. Which makes me think, the change in the tone of Supernatural is a creative decision.
I’m also a massive fan of the desaturated, blueish tones of the early seasons, particularly season 1. If I can be a complete TV nerd here, “Faith” has my favourite colour grade, it’s perfect.
This is a really interesting subject that a lot of us have gone back and forth about. I’m sure it’s been asked of the creative team at some point, but it’d be a great question for someone to ask Jim Michaels at next year’s VanCon, whether the visual difference from seasons 1 – 7 is purely down to the change in technology or whether the change was a creative choice for the direction of the show.
Sorry to go on and on…ummm…yes I work in TV 😆
sweetondean, that is a wealth of information!! Thank you.
almost my 10 reasons too! and i totally agree on 10th reason 1!! i mean , it’s Supernatural for crying out loud ! We all are excited ! and can you believe it’s almost a week away?! it’s like it was yesterday that we were crazy about the season 7 finale or the who getting picked up ! wow ! life is fast!
I’m not excited about Carver. AT ALL. First he went out of his way in an interview to say how he is the Dean/Castiel relationships biggest fan. That’s fine but then he said how he and the other writers had to work so hard to shove Sam into a domestic storyline. And that the very foundation of Sam and Deans relationship is lying, thus Dean will be keeping secrets and running around behind his back which feels like its Carvers way of making sure Sam won’t have any meaningful interactions (or a role) with any charectors that are relevant in a show called SUPERNATURAL.
I can’t even count Dean as a meaningful interaction. One they get passed the initial hugs it’ll be lies and more lies and keeping Sam at an emotional distance. For all I know, Dean only went to Sam because Castiel isn’t around and Dean don’t like to hunt alone. Once Cas returns or someone else bonds with Dean then Sam will be pushed even more out of the family.
Sam will be sent off to domesticville while all the other charectors are off doing things one would expect in a show called SUPERNATURAL.
Amy, you are entitled to your opinion for sure. It appears (IMO) the first paragraph has some misinterpretations of Carvers comments, that’s ok we all see things a little differently. What I find hardest to understand is the “Dean only went to Sam” because Cas isn’t around. Dean has aways preferred Sam as his hunting partner. Dean is fully capable of hunting alone and has. He LIKES hunting with his brother. Why do you think Sam will be pushed out of the family? Has Dean ever shown any inclination he wants Sam out of the family? It’s always seem to me that Dean is all about keeping whats left of his family together. I’m not trying to start an argument here, just curious why you feel that way.
Leah, i’m not sure how i misinterpreted Carver basically saying they had to twist Sam’s charector around so they could remove him from the supernatural aspect pf the show. by giving him ‘the human storyline’.
2: I honestly and sincerely dont know why Dean wants to hunt with Sam. Like you said, Dean is fully capable of hunting alone He doesn’t trust Sam and I think he never has as evidenced that Dean rarely if ever opens up to Sam. Which is a sign of trust. he opens up to Castiel all the time…heck he’ll open up to random demons before he’ll open up to Sam.
The continual lies and pushing Sam away emotionally are evidence of Sam being pushed out of the family. Dean simply wont talk to Sam about anything other then the hunt no matter how much Sam tries. It’s got to be incredibly isolating to know you are good enough to be a warm body to talk at but not good enough to talk TO. I think this I’m referring to that one scene where Sam and Dean are sitting on the impala eating tacos and Dean is prattling on. its liek the writers suddenly realized they had a sce3ne with Dean eating and talking to himself and suddenly felt it would be too weird to have Dean alone in that scene so they decided to stick Sam in there and call it a brother scene. The thing is if Sam was replaced by the clown doll from Plucky epside it wouldn’t have changed a thing.
Its not Dean who wants Sam out of the family per say (though Dean throwing out the amulet vs Dean keeping and transferring a bloodstained trenchcoat from car to car until he could ceremoniously hand it back speaks to this and no matter how much anyone says bad writing…its canon)ts the writers and Carver. Or at least they want to use Sam as a placeholder brother until CARVERS prefered brother returns.
I get these feelings because Carver and Edlund go on and on about Dean adn Castiel – how awesome they are, how funny, how much they love writing for them. When was the last time ANY writer/showrunner has said something positive about Sam? personally i think it may have been s2 or three and b y Gamble. But once Castiel was introduced, it was all Castiel and we never heard her say anything positive about Sam since.
The fans beleive the show is about Sam and Dean and their relationship but evidently if what I heard is true that the first half of the season is about Dean and the second is about Castiel….Carver, Edlund and the rest of the writers see a different show. Heck even that publicist who tweets tweets about Sam ONLY if she’s pressed on it. Its always about the amazing scene between Dean and Castiel (or some other charector)
I dont know what to think anymore. I honestly dont know where Sam stands on this show with these writers/showrunners.
Thanks Amy for your reply. I DO understand the fears of Sam fans. I don’t want Sam pushed to the background either. It is important, to me, that the show is about both brothers. I am just not reading the same things into the spoilers as you. I could be dead wrong!
The article, by Alice, about” A Supernatural Christmas” written by Carver , reminded me of some of the lovely writing of past seasons. How could anyone watch that episode and doubt JC’s fondness for both characters. Him being a fan of Cas, does not mean he no longer cares about Sam, IMO.
I’m still a little perplexed over the Dean comments.
I hope your (and others) worst fears are not realized. No one would be happy with that!!!
I meant “A Very Supernatural Christmas”
If I could hit the like button here, Leah D, I totally would. Even though I’m not readin spoilers the same way, I don’t want Sam pushed to the background either. I want Dean and Sam to be driving the story, and I hope Sam fans’ worst fears do not come to pass.
But it also seems true to me that liking one character doesn’t mean you can’t like the other characters just as much. I think Carver has provent to be a great writer for Sam in the past, so I am optimistic. I understand why others cannot be right now, though, and I do sympathize.
While it’s impossible for everyone to be satisfied, I do hope that Carver & crew do manage to make the greatest cross-section of fans happy as they possibly can.
I can’t watch Supernatural Christmas because the whole amulet being thrown away and Dean clinging to a smelly, bloody trenchcoat (honestly that thing had/has to smell something aweful lol) simply overshadows the pure emotion of that episode and and then Sam is FORCED to be near it; a constant reminder that that he was simply a tool to hurt Dean and Castiel wanted Sam to suffer and even gloated about it. And he was never shown ANY remorse or regret rfor his suffering.
I hope I’m dead wrong, I really do but I fear i’m right.
And I want you to know I am happy for Dean and his mytharc. I am.
It’s always interesting how different fans interpret things differently. I feel like you could take a good bit of your second and third paragraphs, replace Dean’s name with Sam, and have the same point. I’m not sure why Sam wants to hunt with Dean at this point. He’s fully capable of hunting alone and seems annoyed by Dean half the time. He doesn’t confide in Dean about anything and really never has, when you think about his visions and his hallucinations. He’s lied to Dean just as many times as Dean has lied to him. When Sam walks away, the majority of the time they reunite because Dean pursued them doing so (not always, of course, but think about 5.4–Sam didn’t ask to reunite with Dean until he knew he couldn’t escape Lucifer and the hunt so he might has well go back to Dean, even though he could have done it alone).
But at the same time, I like to think after 7 years of watching Sam, I know how he feels about his brother. I know he loves Dean, even if he doesn’t confide in him and he seems annoyed by him just like a little brother can be. I’ve seen him devestated by Dean’s loss, I’ve seen him fight to save Dean, I’ve seen little moments where he did seem to enjoy Dean (7.14’s ending being a prime example). On the flip side, we’ve seen Dean fight to save Sam’s life, stick with him even when he’d rather give up, and even enjoy being with Sam. I like to think that almost all fans can see that Dean and Sam would do anything for each other and despite their secrets, lies, and the despair show’s had them wear like a coat for the last 2+ seasons, that they do still care about each other.
Now, if you’re saying that show hasn’t done a great job of centering the show around the boys, I agree. I think show did a great job last year centering Bobby and the guest stars last year, for example. I think both boys have been shorted, Sam in POV and Dean in storyline, but I’m not sure what point there is to holding those slightings against other characters. I think you can argue that this writer likes Cas/Dean and that other writers like Sam, but I don’t think that really goes anywhere.
As for your feelings about showrunners, I wouldn’t try to talk you out of that. I’ve felt the same myself. I think you could also take the comments about showrunners going on and on and replace Carver/Edlund with Sera Gamble and Sam the last two seasons. I’ll fully admit my bias, but after two years of Gamble talking about how special Sam’s soul is, it’s nice to hear the show-runner sound enthusiastic about a story for Dean this year. I do sympathize that Sam hasn’t received as much attention this hiatus, because I remember how it’s been to be a Dean fan in the last two hiatuses. I’ve heard nothing about the second half of the season being about Castiel, and I’ve heard Carver talk about Sam’s story and what it means for him, as well as how perceptions aren’t going to be correct.
Again, I sympathize with not knowing where Sam stands with this show–I felt that way with Dean for the entirity of S6 and S7. All I could do was hold on and hope for signs of optimism. It took me two years to get them. I’m sorry you’re in the same position now, and I can only hope it gets better for you.
Hi Emmau,
Quote: “When Sam walks away, the majority of the time they reunite because Dean pursued them doing so (not always, of course, but think about 5.4–Sam didn’t ask to reunite with Dean until he knew he couldn’t escape Lucifer and the hunt so he might has well go back to Dean, even though he could have done it alone).”
I know that this reference to ep 5.4 is just for example’s sake in the larger argument that you are making, but it’s pretty hard to go back to your brother voluntarily when he utterly rejects you and basically hangs you out to dry at the start of the episode. Remember, Sam called Dean asking to be reunited, and Dean said no and basically hung up on him. It wasn’t for Sam to rectify that specific situation, it was up to Dean. It’s true that when things get tough, Sam has a tendency to leave (not my favorite character trait, btw), but I feel like Sam has come to Dean as often as Dean has come to Sam. The most famous example is the Pilot when Dean gets Sam at school, and this first event has set the tone for the rest of the show, but it’s not really accurate. When Dean and Sam separate in Scarecrow, it’s Sam who comes back. When they separate in Hunted, it’s Dean who does the tracking down; In the End it’s Dean ultimately, but after Sam had already tried and been turned down. In Two Min. To Midnight Sam tracks down Dean; in the Girl Next Door it’s Dean again, and in the Mentalists, its a draw, cause they run into each other “accidentally” at a restaurant investigating the same case. There are probably a few more that I am not remembering, but to me it seems pretty evenly split. Sorry to focus on this one thing in your nicely written response, but it kind of stuck out to me.
That comment was meant to respond to the idea that it was unclear why Dean was still hunting with Sam. In 5.4, I was simply pointing out that it was unclear why Sam wanted to come back to Dean, since he was more than capable of hunting on his own.
But in larger argument, Dean has been rejected by Sam when he’s left him behind and refused to answer his phone calls, but Dean still shows up, going so far in 7.7 as to wheedle his way into working a case with Sam. Of course, Sam had every right not to pursue hunting with Dean after 5.4, but I disagree that the onus is all on Dean at that point–Dean had made it clear that there were issues in the relationship before Sam walked away from Dean in 5.2, despite knowing angels were hunting him and willing to torture him into saying yes. Sam suddenly finds out Lucifer’s after him, and suddenly he doesn’t want to be alone? Dean has to be willing to forgive Sam and work with him, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think Sam should have done more to try to repair the relationship than just asking back in. That’s just my opinion, though.
I never meant to imply that Sam has never come after Dean, though I will have to agree to disagree that they are on even ground on that point. I do not know what time Sam tracked down Dean in Two Minutes to Midnight, and while Sam and Dean did run into each other in 7.7, it’s Dean who worked to get Sam to work with him, ultimately leading to their coming together again. And that’s okay–everything doesn’t have to be measured and tracked and equal in order for the boys to have a bond. I like that Dean tracks Sam down, and I feel Sam shows what Dean means to him, as I stated above.
Hey, feel free to focus on whatever you want! I’m feeling particuarly wordy tonight, and I’m enjoying all the time to think about and discuss show!
I took Sam asking to be let back in as a show of complete supplication. That he was saying he wasn’t capable of doing this on his own.
In S4, he was all hopped up on demon blood and convinced of his invulnerability and thought he could do all by himself. In S5, he didn’t trust himself at all, knew Dean didn’t trust him (and Dean is where he gets a lot of his self-worth IMO). So in 5.2, he gives in to that feeling of helplessness and believe he’s too weak to hunt. Dean basically confirms it. So as Dean told him, he is a detriment to Dean and putting Dean and everyone else in danger. So he leaves.
But after he learns that he is the vessel and that even killing himself won’t do any good. He goes to the one person that he has always depended on. Not because Dean needs him (obviously since he sees himself as more of a hindrance than a help), but because he deathly afraid of what will happen if he fails again. He removed himself from the situation for the safety of others and he asked to be let back in for the same reason. Dean was his only hope.
Really? That’s an interesting perspective, and I’ll admit I didn’t see it that way at all. Let me consider that.
In S4, I think I can agree that Sam felt he was stronger than Dean certainly. I think he thought the blood made him invulnerable, though he was convinced it would damn him in the end. I’m not sure he thought he could do it all by himself, though–he seemed prety clear the he had to have Ruby in order to defeat Lilith. Still, that was towards the end, and midseason he didn’t seem to think he needed her or angels or anyone else to deal with the likes of Alastair. So that is possible. But that was in mid-season, not the end, where Sam seemed pretty awareof his dependence on Ruby. I think the big revelation of 4.22/5.1 was not that he had an addiction problem–it was that he’d backed the wrong horse, so to speak.
I’d agree that he knew Dean didn’t trust him at the beginning of S5 (deservedly so, in my opinion). and that did affect him. I’d further agree that War’s words spooked Sam further. I didn’t see Dean confirm that Sam was too weak to hunt–I did see Sam declare that he was going to leave to get his head together and Dean told him maybe he should. At that point, though, Dean knew Sam was going to leave no matter what, so what was he going to say? He’s been here before–if Sam says he’s going to leave, he’s going to, so what’s the point of arguing? But even if he hadn’t wanted to argue, I don’t see anything wrong with Dean wanting time on his own, just as Sam did.
I guess my point still remains that Sam knew Dean was in danger from the angels and he walked away, instead of working to strengthen himself while watching Dean’s back. I will always find that problematic. I recognize that that is a personal issue, and not everyone is going to see it the same way.
And after leaving Dean with on his own (as they didn’t know Castiel would be popping back in from his search for God and we know Dean was killing vampires alone), Sam burned all of his i.d.s, leaving the question if Sam ever intended to return to Dean at all. We’ll never know, though because he learned he was facing the same thing as Dean and decided to come back. If Sam didn’t realize that Dean needed help at that point, too, I find that genuinely sad–after all, if Sam needed someone to lean on upon learning the news that he was meant to be an angel vessel and bring on the end of the world, why would Dean be just fine without help? That’s what I mean when I say Sam could have done more at that point–he of all people should have realized right then exactly what kind of pressure and fear he’d left Dean to face alone, and he could have said that he’d thought he was putting Dean in danger, but he clearly already was so Sam was going to have his back.
But he didn’t. He left Dean alone and wanted to return because he needed help, and Dean’s needs/wants didn’t seem to enter into the equation for him. That’s a bit sad, when I think about it.
I know this sounds harsh, because I agree Sam was at a very low point here. IMy problem is that Dean was, too, and he seems he’s the only one who is expected to put his brother first in that moment. So I’m afraid I’ll have to disagree that this is some sign of Sam trying to make things right with Dean. He was scared and wanted Dean’s company/guidance/protection/any or all of the above. I don’t see where Dean’s issues factored into Sam’s thinking at all. I’m not saying he didn’t have the right to ask for these things–he did. I’m just not seeing how the request was an olive branch of any kind to Dean.
Yeah, by the end of S4, he was feeling the effects of his addiction, but I think he thought as long as he had the blood, he was good. He needed Ruby for her blood and to do things he didn’t want to do, like draining the nurse of blood. I think “backing the wrong horse” makes it sound like he was just sad he didn’t win. I don’t think he expected to survive killing Lilith and was sacrificing himself to save the world. Obviously trusting a demon was complete idiocy, but Dean didn’t have any better luck trust an angel.
I think he was truly sorry for his mistakes. And at first wanted to try to fix them. But Dean didn’t trust him and he did tell Sam spent more time worrying him than doing the job. And that he couldn’t afford that now with the apocalypse. Then war forced him to see that his addication wasn’t just physical. That he craved the power and therefore was just a vulnerable as Dean said he was.
I also don’t think Sam ever even consider that Dean would say yes at that point. Dean was not the one who had made all the wrong decisions. Dean was protected by the symbols and how would Sam being with Dean keep him from saying yes or protect him. As far as Sam knew being with Dean would make it harder. Because while Dean had said no while they were torturing Sam, that didn’t mean it wouldn’t be hard for Dean to watch.
I think Sam thought Dean didn’t want him with him. I definitely got that impression, especially when he’d always fought to keep him around before. And offering to let him take the Impala felt like a bittersweet goodbye.
We know from the future Dean that he would’ve never seen Sam again. So I think it’s reasonable to assume that he was being at least partially honest when he said he was happier without Sam around. So I don’t think Dean wanting him gone is a leap. I got the impression that regardless of what Dean said, the only reason he did let him come back was because he saw the consequences of not letting him. Not because he had so much concern for Sam. After Dean told him the story of the future, I’m sure Sam considered this as well.
So I do think you are being overly harsh by saying Sam just left Dean vulnerable. Because if Dean wanted Sam gone and Sam thought that he was putting Dean (and everyone else in danger by hunting) then that was a decision made equally.
I don’t blame Dean for wanting him gone or for not trusting Sam at that point or even for saying no when Sam ask to be able to come back (Even though it broke my heart.). He had every reason not to do so. Sam was a liability. But I don’t think you can wholly blame Sam for not being there when Dean want him to be.
I can see your point somewhat here. You’re right, “backing the wrong horse” does just sound like Sam’s sad his way wasn’t right, and that’s not the impression I wanted to give. I do think Sam was self-aware enough to realize that he was addicted and that he was dependent on Ruby, and I don’t think he thought he was good. I think he just thought he could take out Lilith and be done. I don’t think he thought there was any way back by then, and so he was all in on completing his mission.
I do think Sam was genuinely sorry, and I agree that he wanted to fix his mistakes. I still find it problematic to say, “Sam wanted to make things right but Dean wouldn’t let him.” That implies that Sam couldn’t stick around and try to make things up to Dean if Dean wasn’t immediately enthusiastic, and that puts all the onus on repairing the relationshp on Dean. No, Dean couldn’t trust Sam then and was worried about Sam as much as the coming apocalypse, but that doesn’t mean that Sam had no other avenue except walking away. I agree that War shook Sam up, and he had every right to get his head together. But I’m sorry, he still left Dean’s back uncovered while he did so.
I don’t know how Sam could think that there was no way Dean would ever say yes. Sure, Dean said no to Zachariah when Zachariah was threatening to kill them both, but that’s not the same as being able to say no to prolonged torture, which Zachariah certainly was capable of performing. I can’t agree with the idea that it would be better for Dean if Zachariah caught him alone, because it’s always been abundantly clear that he doesn’t do as well alone. Dean has always been stronger when he’s had someone with him, and Sam knows Dean well enough to know that. Sam knows Dean better than anyone, even Dean himself, so I find it hard to believe that he wouldn’t understand that.
Again, by saying that Sam didn’t think Dean wanted him around puts all the onus on Dean to keep them together. When Sam decides he wants out, it’s Dean’s responsibility to change his mind and argue for him to stay? Why wouldn’t it be Sam’s responsibility to stay and work to fix things with Dean? I just feel like the idea that Dean has to make Sam feel wanted before Sam’s willing to work to repair their relationship doesn’t work.
We know from future Dean that he hadn’t seen Sam again, but we also know that present Dean was shocked by that. That, to me, clearly indicates that Dean never meant for their separation to be permanent. Sure, he blew off steam to Castiel about being happier than he’d been in years, but happier than 40 years in hell and his S4 relationship with Sam? That doesn’t sound like a big measuring stick. So we don’t know how Dean got from shocked that he hadn’t spoken to Sam to being casual about the fact that they hadn’t spoken again, and we don’t know how Croatoan, the destruction of the world, and Sam saying yes factored into those things. I’ll agree that 5.4 Dean would indicate that he hadn’t been ready to deal with Sam, but since when is he ever ready to deal with things emotionally? If we’re going to say it’s Dean’s responsibility to make Sam stay in 5.2, wouldn’t that make it Sam’s responsibility to get Dean to talk and deal with his feelings? No, I don’t think it is. All the responsibility isn’t on Sam there, but it shouldn’t all be on Dean either.
Now, I will agree that one of the main reasons he reunited with Sam was to because his trip to the future had convinced him that Sam was going to say yes without him. I think that ignores the other part of what Dean said to Sam, “We keep each other human.” He’d seen his future self and he didn’t want to be that person. He knew he had to reach out to Sam, to get his brother back, because he was horrified that his future self hadn’t. He didn’t want to be the Dean that cut Sam adrift. So I think there’s more layers to that decision than that.
I agree that I’m being harsh with Sam, but Sam did leave Dean alone and still in danger, at a time where he’d spent a good part of S4 worrying about Dean’s ability to cope. Sam might not have thought of it that way because he thought he was putting Dean and others in danger, but he did still leave him to face fixing the apocalypse while dodging angels alone. I disagree this was a decision that they made equally in 5.2–Sam decided to go, and Dean let him, which means he let Sam make his own decisions, just as 5.5 claimed he never did.
Now, in 5.4, I agree that Dean didn’t want Sam back because it was tactically unsound in his mind and because he hadn’t regained any trust for Sam. How could he have when Sam wasn’t there? So, no, I don’t believe that Sam is completely to blame for them being separated, but it was his choice in 5.2 to leave Dean behind, and in 5.4 he’d done nothing to prove to Dean that anything had changed.
I doubt we’ll ever completely. I’ll concede that fixing the relationship wasn’t all on Sam, but I do think if Sam thought he was the one in the wrong it doesn’t work to expect Dean to clear the path for Sam to receive forgiveness. That was Sam’s responsibility. I’ll agree that Dean allowed Sam to make his own decision to leave and wasn’t ready to forgive, but I can’t agree that somehow that Dean is the one with all the responsibility for fixing their relationship so Sam couldn’t do anything about it. Sam is a stubborn man, and he’s fought for what he wanted before. I expected to see more of Sam fighting to fix things with Dean personally, and S5 just didn’t give me that. I understand that others see things differently, and I’ll agree to disagree if you like.
I still think there ample evidence that Dean did not WANT Sam with him or at the very least he did and he didn’t. But he had told Sam that he couldn’t trust him and that he couldn’t do his job with Sam around. So I do think it a little unreasonable to hold Sam’s leaving that time against, especially since he considered himself to putting Dean in danger.
Now maybe they didn’t show Sam trying to repair the relationship enough. I could agree with that. But I don’t think that the responsibility for that was all on his side. And I don’t think they showed Dean trying to fix their relationship at all. Yes he was the more injured party, but he was not without blame for where they ultimately ended up.
He was pretty hard on Sam LONG before there was any indication that he should be. Sam did have legitimate reasons for rebelling against and hiding things from his brother. If his knee jerk reaction to Sam’s abilities hadn’t been calling Sam a freak and telling him he would hunt if he didn’t know him than maybe Sam would have felt able to confide in him. But even when Sam was just having visions Dean was freaked by the implications, even though Sam was completely innocence. It was indicated several times that Sam was hurt by Dean’s attitude towards things he couldn’t control. But it was always tempered with love and acceptance before he went to hell.
But when he came back, he went nuts the minute he learned that Sam was using his abilities. He was horrible to Sam. There was no talking or discussing there was Dean yelling at Sam that it was wrong, despite Sam saving people.
This is a terrible analogy, but if your parents lose their minds when they find out you lifted a car off someone, you unlikely to tell that you had to take a drug in order to do it.
Perhaps if Dean had talked to Sam, instead of hitting him twice and freaking out on him things would have ended differently. Or maybe not but either way Dean was a bit of a dick.
Dean had just gotten back from hell, so I’m obviously going to cut him some slack. But he was pretty cruel to Sam. And that is pretty much ignored. If Sam had said something to Dean about being worried he was a monster after he found out he’d tortured people in hell, that would definitely been held against Sam.
The point of the long ramble is that Dean did have some responsibility for the state of their relationship and he gave little indication he wanted to repair beyond the working relationship. Worst of all, he threw away the amulet because Sam’s heaven (that very possibly was manipulated by Zach) wasn’t what he thought it should be. Once again blaming Sam for something he couldn’t control.
Sam does not get a pass on repairing their relationship, but neither does Dean.
Hey Kelly, just a small point, but wasn’t Deans discarding of the amulet primarily about his feelings of defeat and dissolutionment after hearing that God did not want to get involved. The amulet supposedly being a way to detect Gods presence. I know Dean’s feelings got hurt about not being included in Sam’s heaven moments and that also might have played a part but was it the main reason? Frankly I’m not sure, but Dean did not seem to harbor any long term hard feelings over that. I do think it was wrong. Sam gave it to him, and that should have counted for something. However Dean had given up hope at that point and wasn’t really thinking very rationally.
Since Dean never seemed to believe in God or to expect anything from God, I always took the throwing away of the amulet as slapping Sam in the face. He knew Sam was watching, held the amulet out so Sam could see it and threw it away as an F you to Sam. Plus it happened after he angrily told Sam that Sam’s best moments were always the worst for him, while ignoring the fact that 1) Sam was deeply uncomfortable by being fondled by a 13 year old girl and 2) that 2 of Dean’s happiest moments were when Dean was four, Sam was asleep and out of the room John was fighting with Mary and Dean had Mary all to himself. Dean was sublimely unaware of how much of heaven was manipulated.
Castiel believed the amulet could find God, Dean not so much.
Didn’t Dean and Sam go with Joshua to try and enlist the help of God? Hasn’t Dean said in the past that he wasn’t sure about Gods existence but he’d like to think he did. You are speculating what Dean had in his mind at the time. We all do, I don’t feel F- you was it. Sams heaven moments were painful for Dean. Sam running away while in Dean’s care, Sam leaving after the big blowout with John, Sam having holiday dinner with another family. Sam telling Dean that family just doesn’t mean the same to him. That had to hurt.Sam’s memories of his 11 yr old self getting his knee grabbed by a girl he seemed to like doesn’t seem to me to warrent a huge reaction from Dean. Sam was as uncomforable as any 11 yr old would be. I don’t see the problem with Dean’s 4 yr old self comforting his mother?? That wasn’t a slap in the face to Sam. Heaven may or may not been manipulated but Sam never denied that those were his best memories.
I see Dean in a totally different light, not perfect, but an amazing human being. I also see Sam in the same light.
Dean’s memory of Mary may not of been a slap in the face no but Dean didnt seem aware that it was affecting Sam. Sam said can we go after looking at Dean and Mary knowing he never had that , shared those moments with his mother that memory must of brought that home to Sam.
As he said he didnt have anybody to cut the crusts of his jam sandwiches . The memories in this episode were sympathetic ones for Dean , cold away from his family for Sam. The amulet being thrown away can be seen either way a loss of hope in Dean or a gesture to Sam. considering the tone of the episode and Sam’s memories it isnt hard to go with the latter.
I thought the episode was very sympathetic to Sam, actually. For one thing, how sad is it for a kid that his best memories were an awkward Thanksgiving dinner where he was a guest, being a kid runaway from what we know was a neglected childhood, and going to college at the price of having the door to return shut in his face by his father? I don’t wonder those memories were important to him, because they were times when he tried to create a different life for himself out of a life where he felt trapped and unhappy, but for the viewer they were still sad. And seeing his mother in Dean’s memory, having Dean emphasize that she couldn’t interact with Sam because it wasn’t Sam’s memory, I think was a reminder to Sam of the feeling that Dean and John shared those four years of perfect family life from which he felt excluded.
Of course, Dean’s side is also a sad and sympathetic one, having to be the person who gave his kid brother fireworks (I think we sometimes forget that Sam didn’t see that memory; as far as Sam knew, Dean’s heaven didn’t have him in it, either), having to comfort his mother when he was still a little kid himself, being reminded that the myth of the lost paradise that John built the revenge quest into which he coopted his kids was just that, a myth.
But Dean at that point in canon was in a worse place psychologically than Sam. Sam was able to have a little perspective, to see that his Stanford memory was going to hurt Dean and try to get away from it, to see from Dean’s memory of Mary exactly how long Dean had had to take the role of comforter in the family. That Sam was able to get insight into Dean and feel compassion for him says something good about Sam. It’s understandable that Dean was hurt by Sam’s memories and couldn’t get that kind of perspective in turn (I think Plucky Pennywhistle was a moment for Dean similar to what DSotM was for Sam, a moment when he saw Sam’s childhood from Sam’s perspective and realized that something that he’d never thought hurt Sam had).
Sam was certainly hurt by Dean’s loss of faith in him, symbolized by the throwing away of the amulet (among other things; I think Dean was expressing his hurt by hurting Sam with that gesture, but I think loss of the last shred of faith in God and his suicidal loss of faith in himself was also a part of it), but at that point Sam had also matured enough to understand that Dean was in crisis, to not lash out in turn, and to ultimately save Dean by offering him his faith in PoNR. So I don’t think DSotM comes across as cold and negative towards Sam.
This is well-reasoned, and even handed. If you were to spread this around the fandom, I’d consider it a personal favor. 🙂
[quote]Sam was able to have a little perspective, to see that his Stanford memory was going to hurt Dean and try to get away from it, to see from Dean’s memory of Mary exactly how long Dean had had to take the role of comforter in the family. That Sam was able to get insight into Dean and feel compassion for him says something good about Sam. It’s understandable that Dean was hurt by Sam’s memories and couldn’t get that kind of perspective in turn (I think Plucky Pennywhistle was a moment for Dean similar to what DSotM was for Sam, a moment when he saw Sam’s childhood from Sam’s perspective and realized that something that he’d never thought hurt Sam had).
Sam was certainly hurt by Dean’s loss of faith in him, symbolized by the throwing away of the amulet (among other things; I think Dean was expressing his hurt by hurting Sam with that gesture, but I think loss of the last shred of faith in God and his suicidal loss of faith in himself was also a part of it), but at that point Sam had also matured enough to understand that Dean was in crisis, to not lash out in turn, and to ultimately save Dean by offering him his faith in PoNR. So I don’t think DSotM comes across as cold and negative towards Sam.[/quote]
This could not be stated better or more accurately.
Spot-on analysis, here.
I agree with Rick D and Bamboo24. This was extremely well said.
Sorry that last post should be further down, I keep getting logged off and then i lose my place when I get back in. My response is really to # E below
I responded to the rest below so I won’t ramble on again.
But as far as Sam’s memories go. I think those were probably some of his happy memories, but I’m sure there were many others that included Dean and Jess and probably even his Dad and Bobby.
But I have trouble believing the coincidence that the only 3 memories we see of Sam’s all hurt Dean.
Again I LOVE LOVE LOVE Dean and Sam I think they’ve both gone through so much stuff that a psychologist could become a millionaire trying to sort out half their crap. I don’t think either is a bad person. In fact, I think they are both heroes and people to be admired- but also completely effed up. It’s part of their charm.
Yeah, I’ve always wondered about this actually. DSOTM was the third (I think) mind trip that Zachariah had orchestrated for Dean in season 5, the first being It’s a Terrible Life, and then The End. In each, Dean was able to see past the manipulation.. and the mind trips actually had the opposite affect on him than what I think Zach intended. But for some reason, Dean bought all the lies in DSOTM hook, line and sinker. I was surprised actually. Why could he not see through the machinations in this episode when he was able to do so in the two previous ones? He should have been suspicious the minute Zach showed up and started fondling his mother, but he kind of caves in on himself instead. He never even once considered that the whole thing was designed to drive a wedge between himself and Sam, when it seemed so obvious (at least to me) that this is what was going on. Of all of Zach’s meddling this scenario was the easiest to see through (for me at least) but Dean bought it. Maybe he was just too worn down by this point, but I found it slightly OOC. Then he threw away the amulet and it was like a punch to the gut. If heaven really was supposed to be a collection of the boy’s fondest memories, then why did neither of them know which memories were coming up? It’s their heaven right? They should know which memories would be used because it would have been their choice, and yet neither brother seemed to be choosing the memories themselves, (Sam in particular seemed horrified) and this smacks of manipulation. This has always bothered me a little about this episode, but I guess that they had to set up Sam’s redemption arc somehow.
(Sorry not having any luck posting – this is where I meant to comment. )
Wow, thanks to all of you! It never occurred to me that the whole thing from start to finish was a manipulation by Zachariah, I just thought it was the last piece with Mary that was the problem. Now I feel dumb. I actually took all of this episode at face value and it just breaks my heart – I can’t watch it. It explains something I commented on before about how could ‘heaven’ be a place where your mother can torture you and I just didn’t get it. Doh.
Y’all have improved my day!
Yeah I’m going to have to go with percysowner on this one. I never bought that argument either. God was the last hope of a dying man as he saw it but that was not what the amulet represented to Dean.
Dean wore that amulet constantly since was a kid because Sam gave it to him. He didn’t believe in God until Castiel showed up and even then he had doubts. When he got back from Hell Sam gave it back to him and he look so touched. Even at the beginning of S5 he was reluctant to give it up, even though Cas said he could use it to find God. Why would he be if he in any way connected it to God? No he was reluctant because it was from Sam.
He threw it away to DELIBERATELY hurt Sam. He knew Sam was watching he dangle it over the trash can it front of him and then let it drop. You will never get me to believe that that wasn’t a fuck you to Sam.
Like have said before, I get it. I think Dean was basically suicidal at this point (soon after he decided to say yes). He was despondent,on a downhill slide going into that episode and what he saw in Sam’s heaven, what Jacob said and what “Mary” said all hit him hard. He’d been losing faith all season, probably before, but that was kind of the last straw. BUT it was still a dick move. He all but told Sam he was throwing him and their relationship away.
Don’t get me wrong. I love that episode and adore Dean but I that doesn’t mean he not often a complete ASS. I like him because he’s flawed- human. I just don’t like the tendency to justify or white wash all his flaws or Sam’s. Because IMO it makes them less interesting characters.
I hear what you all are saying, I did say in an earlier comment that I wasn’t sure how much of it was about Sam and how much of it was everything else. Most of my last comments were in response to percysowners. I do agree it was a dick move. I just didn’t think it was All about Sam. It was impulsive and stupid, but many have not forgiven Dean for that. And after reading many comments the last few days referring to Dean not loving and/or not trusting Sam, I got a little defensive of him. However he felt at the time he did not hold that against Sam later. I personally have never said either one was flawless or tried to whitewash them.
One more thing, pretty much everybody at times defends or tries to justify the actions of a character. With me sometimes it’s Sam. Today it is Dean.
I think I did the same thing. I read a bunch of comments from a lot of different people bashing one of them and then some poor person makes a comment and I end up lumping all the ones I recently read together when I respond. That’s not fair. Sorry.
And of course I’m sure I’ve tried to justify one or other of their actions at different times-you’re right everybody does it. I do feel like sometimes some Dean fans act like just about every action and decision he has made is the correct one. Like the very fact he made it, makes it correct. But maybe that is just my perception rather than reality.
I definitely think Dean has always loved Sam. Although if S7 was the only one I ever watched I might have my doubts. Weirdly, even though he was a dick sometimes in S5 and was so angry with Sam, I never really doubted it. But as I’ve said in my more emo moments, I do sometimes wonder if Sam believed it in S5. And maybe even after.
Thank you Kelly, that was very gracious.
It seems things exploded and went in different directions while I was gone today, so I’m not sure whether my comments on this matter are entirely relevant any longer. Still, I did want to touch base again, as I’ve been considering this conversation in the back of my mind and am trying to evolve my perspective a bit. I think all fans can get a bit of tunnel vision at times, and it’s good to realize your viewpoint isn’t the only valid one.
So, it appears to me that we could be in agreement over my main issue, which is that show didn’t show Sam trying to repair the relationship enough. I can further agree that it isn’t all Sam’s responsibility to fix things between them. I think I was reacting to the idea that it was all Dean’s, and I do think I might have gone too far in the other direction. So, no, all the responsibility wasn’t on Sam, though I still think a good bit of it should have been on Sam and show didn’t really do as much as they could have there.
I will further agree that Dean might have been the more injured party at the beginning of the season, but he was not without blame. He did react badly when he found out what Dean ws doing at the beginning of S4. While asking someone to be reasonable and understanding after they catch you in a lie isn’t a very good way to try to reach an accord, there is no doubt that Dean losing his temper didn’t put Sam in a very confiding frame of mind. This doesn’t excuse Sam from lying, but it does make it more understandable
. I don’t think Dean’s reaction to Sam’s visions, where he was clearly just as scared for Sam due to the implications of the visions as anything else, is comparable here, because I don’t think he was ever hard on Sam about that. I can see where Sam might have taken it that way. Sam and Dean both tend to project their worst view of themselves onto their brothers—Dean is always one step away from believing Sam wants nothing to do with him and Sam is always one step away from believing that Dean thinks he’s a freak. Poor boys.
To be fair, Dean also was angry because he found out Sam was lying to him and working with Ruby, the demon who said she’d be glad to see him suffering in hell the season before. Still, he did react badly, and I don’t excuse that.
I do find that analogy terrible, honestly. Your parents should lose their minds if you steal someone’s car, and lying about taking drugs on top of it should earn you an extra nailing. Maybe Dean should have talked to Sam. Maybe Sam should have talked to Dean before he got caught in a lie. I think they both made mistakes that led to the rift there, no question. I don’t think it’s ignored that Dean didn’t react well to Sam, judging by this message board, though. I think you can always find fans that are willing to hold something against Sam or Dean, frankly.
I’ll agree that Dean had some responsibility for the state of the relationship, but I still feel at that point that the onus was more on Sam to show his willingness to make restitution. I never felt like he did, and from 5.4 on it felt like the onus was very much on Dean. That’s never going to sit well with me, but it’s really more of a writing issue than a Sam issue. I’m not sure how 5.16 got into this discussion, as we’ve wandered very far away from the original topic. I’m not sure if you really want me to address it, so I’ll end with your last statement.
It seems we’re in agreement then—no, Dean shouldn’t get a pass on repairing their relationship, but neither should Sam.
[quote]
I will further agree that Dean might have been the more injured party at the beginning of the season, but he was not without blame. He did react badly when he found out what Dean ws doing at the beginning of S4.[/quote]
Sorry, Kelly, Dean reacted badly when he found out what Sam was doing at the beginning of S4.
Also at the end, when I said I never felt like Sam showed willingness to make restitution, I meant from the end of 5.2 to the end of 5.4, when he said something to the effect of I’ll prove myself or I’ll make it up.
[quote]To be fair, Dean also was angry because he found out Sam was lying to him and working with Ruby, the demon who said she’d be glad to see him suffering in hell the season before. Still, he did react badly, and I don’t excuse that. [/quote]
Except DEAN TRUSTED RUBY TOO!! After he slept with Anna (which was a big thing for him) he trusted Ruby to withstand torture from ALISTAIR, the guy who broke HIM and he trusted her to stick with the plan to save Anna from the Angels and the demons. Heck, before he slept with Anna, when Anna was just an innocent PIP he trusted Ruby to protect her while they went to get Pamela. He left Anna alone with Ruby. Yes, Anna was in the panic room and Ruby couldn’t get to her, but at the same time, he trusted Ruby to stand guard.
I understand that Dean didn’t trust Ruby, except he did. He and Bobby were all over the map on her. Bobby trusted that she fixed the Colt properly. Dean took her word about where demons come from. He thanked her for helping Sam when he was in Hell. Yes, the blood drinking was the last straw, but until then he did rely on her intel about the demons and various hunts. He was right about Ruby, but Sam WANTED Dean to go with him to kill Lilith. He begged Dean to trust, not Ruby, but Sam. Sam was wrong, but if Ruby could get Dean to trust her without getting him addicted, then it was fairly hypocritical of him to hate Sam for trusting her after more than a year of her behaving loyally and like an ally.
If Dean had NEVER trusted her, never given her a chance, I could understand. I do understand why Dean felt betrayed at the end, but for goodness sake, DEAN went along with Ruby for quite a while all on his own. Yet he couldn’t forgive Sam for being tricked.
For the record, I never saw Sam choosing Ruby over Dean. As I said, Sam wanted Dean to be with him when he confronted Lilith. But Sam believed that he wasn’t strong enough to take on Lilith without the demon blood. Dean never said don’t go after Lilith. Dean said give away the only weapon you have that you know can kill Lilith. Sam refused to drop his weapon. He was horribly wrong, but he wasn’t rejecting Dean, he was rejecting Dean’s method. Dean called him a monster. Dean told him to never come back. And even though Dean took that back, Sam, to this day doesn’t know that. All he knows is that Dean threw him away, just like John did all those years ago.
Yes, Dean trusted Ruby enough to work with her in 4.9, but that is well after 4.4, isn’t it? In 4.4, all Dean knew is that after he died Sam hooked back up with the demon that said she’d love to see him in hell, was under her tutelage, and was lying to him about it. After Sam confided in Dean about how Ruby had saved his life in 4.9, he did soften towards her enough to work with her. But then Sam started disappearing and not telling him the truth again by 4.14, and Dean’s suspicions that things weren’t on the up and up returned.
I’d agree that Dean and Sam both were willing to use Ruby for intelligence and whatnot (and I do remember Dean asking Sam if he trusted her and Sam said, no, he was using her). I’m not sure that Dean really personally trusted Ruby, any more than Dean and Sam really trusted Meg this last season as much as they believed in mutually assured destruction. That’s not the same thing as trust to me. So I’m not sure he was that hypocritical by those standards, but I accept hat mileage varies. I don’t think Dean had a hard time forgiving Sam for being tricked by Ruby as much as he trusted her word over Dean’s.
Yes, Sam wanted Dean to go with him when he confronted Lilith, but he wasn’t willing to compromise on what he wanted any more than Dean was. Sam was willing to leave Dean behind if it meant he had Ruby with him, which is just as rigid a stance as Dean refusing to go along unless Ruby was gone. I can agree he wasn’t rejecting Dean as a person, but he was rejecting his hunting partner and role model’s instincts and advice, and that is not inconsequential. Sam did terrible things, and Dean said horrible things. Honestly, I like to think Sam is smart enough to realize that Dean showing up at that church to be with him meant that Dean did take it back.
[quote] I don’t think Dean’s reaction to Sam’s visions, where he was clearly just as scared for Sam due to the implications of the visions as anything else, is comparable here, because I don’t think he was ever hard on Sam about that. I can see where Sam might have taken it that way. Sam and Dean both tend to project their worst view of themselves onto their brothers—Dean is always one step away from believing Sam wants nothing to do with him and Sam is always one step away from believing that Dean thinks he’s a freak. Poor boys. [/quote]
I think you said this almost perfectly. I think to begin with Dean’s reaction to Sam’s vision was because he was scared for Sam not on him. But I think what Sam processed was that Dean freaked out because of his powers. Which is why he never told him about Azazel feeding him his blood. He did have some basis for the fear. His own father thought he might to evil and need to be killed.
Dean always interprets Sam desire for independence and rejection of hunter’s life as a rejection of him. I think John bares a lot of the responsibility for this too. Because he always emphasized protecting Sam, even when he was just a child himself. I don’t think John did care about Sam more but I think Dean thought he did. But instead of resenting Sam he took that on as his life’s mission.
HAAA! Okay the analogy WAS bad, but not quite as bad as you thought- I think. I did even think about “lifting” also meaning stealing. I was thinking more Superman or someone with an adrenaline rush lifting a car off someone who was trapped underneath. That your family freaks out that you saved someone by lifting UP a car, you probably wouldn’t tell them that you had taken a steroid-type substance to do it. Still bad. But not quite a bad – hopefully.
I never really saw Dean as having the onus of mending the relationship. But like you maybe I just need to think on it (I just rewatched those episodes so hopefully that’ll help.
The conversation did take a bit of another path. The 5.16 came, I believe, because I was trying to point out that while perhaps neither brother was working to reconciliation as much as they could. At a certain point Dean was actually withdrawing even further from Sam, putting even more distance between them (ie throwing away the amulet).
Common ground, hurray! On my good days, I do think John was trying his best as a father, but it’s undeniable that he’s been a major force in breaking these boys. Dean’s abandonment issues, need for family to be with him in order to believe they love him, and feeling that unless he’s taking care of his family that they have no use for him, can be directly tied to him. Likewise Sam’s issues about family can be largely traced to John—his lies, his throwing Sam out for Stanford, and his last message to Dean. How could he not be affected by that?
Consequently, Sam and Dean are both left thinking that the other thinks the worst of them, even when that’s not the truth. Sure, there’s a basis in truth in Dean’s fear about Sam’s powers and Sam’s tendency not to contact Dean when he’s upset, but neither is as bad as the other thinks, at least in my opinion.
Oh, now that analogy makes more sense. I still think a family would be quite within reasonable bounds to be concerned about a sudden ability to lift a car and right to question how that would come about (and let’s face it—the person doing so knows that taking the steroid is bad). But I can see why they would want to further lie about it. Doesn’t make it right, but understandable.
Of course, not everyone is going to see things from the same perspective, and if you don’t see it that’s fine. I think Sam’s redemption for breaking the last seal dwarfed any redemption arc that was written for him repairing his relationship with Dean, while Dean had more than one episode where it was his job to realize he wasn’t being a good brother (5.5, 5.18, 5.21-22) and needed to change. Maybe the perception comes from the fact that we’re told bluntly about Dean’s failings and how they impact Sam, but the same did not explicitly occur regarding Sam’s failings and how they impacted Dean personally. So I do see where more emphasis was put on Dean to fix the relationship in S5 than Sam. Or maybe it’s just my perspective, and we’ll agree to disagree, and that’s fine. It’s not a right or wrong answer, I think, just a matter of views.
I could agree that both brothers had trouble working towards reconciliation in S5 even without defining whom the onus was on to do so. Which brings us full circle—S5 wasn’t satisfying to me because they never really took the time to fix what they’d broken in S4 correctly, and I think we still see the results of that today both on show and in fandom.
I think we agree on John. I do think he did his best-as Sam says, but I don’t think he saw what damage he was doing to both his boys.
As for the bad analogy, I completely agree that lying was wrong regardless of the circumstance and even more importantly, and obviously, that drinking the demon blood was wrong. But I was just saying from Sam POV, he’d lost Dean because he wouldn’t work with Ruby and so when she came along saying she could make him strong and help him save lots of people-I can see why he was let himself be seduce by her and her blood.
I think he’d convinced himself it was okay (although I suspect deep down he knew it was wrong), because he was saving people. So if Dean had reacted less violently to the saving people, MAYBE Sam would have felt comfortable enough to talk about why he could do it. And it could have been nipped in the bud.
Dean has incredible instincts for right and wrong but he does expect people to follow those instincts without question. And since his instincts are not infallible, I do think he should learn to actually TALK to people about his fears, rather than expecting them to just say how high. He did the same thing with Castiel in tMWKtM. He needs to work on his communications skills. LOL.
I think I see the disconnect between on S5. FOR ME, whenever they would speak of Sam’s failings, of his making the wrong choices ….., I see those as being connected to his failings, making the wrong choices….. AS A BROTHER as well. To me the show’s character’s often talk in the bigger pictures, while speaking of the personal connections. To me, Dean often noticed the connections and would either look stonefaced or look down or away. (but obviously the situations wouldn’t have to be interpreted that way). That’s why we Sam said he the least of them, I had no trouble believing that that was exactly how he felt.
Also, for me, when Sam openly acknowledged his weaknesses (throughout the season not just in 5.4) and looked to Dean for support, he was showing that he trusted him and considered him the strong one. So when he said he trusted him in PoNR, I accepted that without question.
There are other small things, but basically it comes down to how the person interprets these things. So obviously there wouldn’t really be a right or wrong. But it’s probably why I love S5 and others find it extremely lacking.
But while I do love it, I don’t think they fully repaired the boys relationship by the end. And it hasn’t had a lot of movement since so I do hope that changes in S8. So that they can be closer like they were in S1-3.
Poor, broken Winchesters. In terms of show timelines, John had to be around the same age as the boys are now (if not younger) when his wife died and he found himself hunting alone with two kids to take care of. Since Sam and Dean can barely take care of themselves sometimes, it’s easy to see how John’s good intentions often ran amok. It doesn’t excuse him, but it is understandable.
I continue to say it was very understandable how Sam ended up in the position he was in. While Sam forgetting what Ruby said in 3.16 seemed un-Sam-like, I can also see how he was so devastated at that moment he just latched onto Ruby like a life preserver. I think he did his best to convince himself that he was doing good, though I think he knew he was doing something wrong in trusting a demon and drinking demon blood. I’m sorry, but Dean didn’t react violently to Sam saving people—he reacted violently to Sam keeping important things from him (something Sam hates, ironically) and being taken in by a demon. Yes, his reaction did stifle any conversation that they could have had, but this wasn’t Sam running to Dean and saying, “Guess what I figured out how to do!†This was Sam deliberately not telling Dean the truth. In that way, he inadvertently opened the door for the angels to gain Dean’s trust—Castiel was honest with him about what Sam was doing in 4.3-4.4 while Sam was lying to him. While they ultimately turned out to be untrustworthy, it becomes understandable to see why angels initially presented themselves as more trustworthy than Sam.
As for nipping anything in the bud, if Dean had supported Sam’s choices with Ruby, what exactly would have changed? If Dean had agreed that the ends had justified the means and given Sam his blessing to work with Ruby and drink demon blood, he would have betrayed who he was and for no different results than we got. So I’m not sure what better things would have occurred from that. Maybe the rift would have been in S5, when Dean wouldn’t be able to forgive Sam nor himself, but in the end I can’t see how the rift wouldn’t have happened.
I agree that Dean has great instincts and does expect people to follow them. No, he’s not infalliable, and he shouldn’t react to being questioned as if his whole worth is being questioned. At the same time, Sam really did himself no favors by rejecting Dean’s great instincts as well as everyone else in his circle telling him he was heading down a bad road. Whenever he was caught lying, he would come clean—but always with justifications for lying and seemingly shocked that anyone could be upset by his actions. I’d say they were both terrible at communication in S4.
You’re right, that is the disconnect. When show spoke of Sam’s failings and wrong choices, they did not address those failings or choices in terms of his being Dean’s brother. When Sam said, “This is my mess, and I have to clean it upâ€â€”he’s not talking about Dean. Dean very often works in terms of Sam. Indeed, his entire arc in S5 turned about to be about how Dean could be a better brother, and he speaks upon it directly and takes actions that directly address that. I didn’t see Dean as making connections that often to himself personally—I think he took it personally that Sam made mistakes, because that’s how Dean takes things. But I keep thinking back to 5.1, when Sam seemed stunned by the idea that Dean was personally upset with him when he talked about Sam letting him down. I just don’t see a lot of signs that Sam was thinking about Dean when he talked about redemption. I’d agree he was checking Dean’s reaction, because I do think Dean’s opinion was important to him. But in terms of actually trying to make amends to Dean, I didn’t see that, and if he was, it just wasn’t enough for me. If Dean has to directly address his short-comings involving Sam, I don’t think it’s too much to ask the same of Sam. I don’t want oblique looks I’m supposed to interpret.
And yeah, that “I’m the least†line still doesn’t work for me. I try to understand it, but when I’m in a less forgiving mood, I find it self-pitying—“Look, Dean I know I’m so lacking compared to all of you, but what else can we do?â€. In my more forgiving mood, I choose to think it’s a left-field line I should ignore.
So, no, I don’t like S5 all that much, because I don’t think they did a good job with Sam’s redemption arc or ultimately the ending of Dean’s S4/S5 arc (I hate the inequality of Dean saying yes means he’s weak and a bad brother for leaving Sam behind even though he thought he would be saving him, but Sam saying yes is the right thing and Dean doesn’t enter into that at all because he might save him on a as Sam said billion to one shot. I would have much preferred show have both boys say no, firmly rejecting destiny for TFW and finding their own solution, instead of giving into destiny and pulling a fast one at the last minute). That of course doesn’t mean that others can’t enjoy it because I, as you so aptly put it, find it lacking. And yes, I don’t think it really repaired the boys’ relationship much and S6/S7 did nothing to rectify that. So here’s hoping in S8.
One point: Dean didn’t think he’d be saving Sam by saying Yes in 5.18. He explicitly told Sam that he expected Sam to say Yes and that he had to be there to stop him once he did. He expected Sam to be Samifer and he expected to kill him. He also knew that saying Yes to Michael meant that billions of people would die, and that Michael was planning a Stepford earth. Now, he thought it was the right thing, that it was preventing a greater destruction, that it was sparing Adam from having to take his part. I don’t think it was a weak or evil decision. But Sam’s plan to say Yes was inherently different from Dean’s intention to say Yes: Dean was taking the certainty of letting the apocalypse go forward to prevent the more total apocalypse of a Lucifer victory. Sam had a chance — a hail Mary pass, but a chance — of preventing the apocalypse from going forward at all. Whether they were right or wrong to take that risk, they did stand to gain far more if it succeeded than they would have gained if Dean had said Yes.
I’ll admit, I’ve always figured that Dean’s “I think you’ll say yes, and I have to be there to stop you” was simply Sam’s turn in the “I’m going to be as nasty as I can to get you to push me away so it won’t be so bad when I’m gone” rounds Dean was making in 5.18. He swiped at Bobby and Castiel similarly, and wasn’t particularly kind to Adam either. So I’ll admit I’ve never taken that particular speech at face value, much as some don’t the boys’ trip through heaven in 5.16 at face value. I do think saying yes was a flawed decision on Dean’s part, though not a weak or evil one, and I’ve never wished that he’d said yes instead. At the same time, though, I’ve always been sad that Sam said yes, because I don’t think it was a very fitting end to the whole TFW theme of the season/series.
As for your other point, yes, Dean thought billions of people were possibly going to die if he said yes, bu he thought he would save the other half of the planet. Sam confessed that he thought he had a billion to one shot not to condemn the entire planet by saying yes. So . . . why was one considered better than the other? They were pretty much both virtually guaranteed to cause the death of billions of people in theory, at least according to Sam. In fact, it made just as little sense on Sam’s side because they had no reason to think that Sam was going to be able to contain Lucifer that I recall. Sam simply thought that if he could do it, it would be a solution. I’m not sure how to this day this theory leapt into the good idea category. So to me, they had no reason to think Sam’s plan would work at all and didn’t even seem to think that it would. So to me, there wasn’t that much difference between Sam’s plan and Dean’s plan, except Sam’s plan was in the finale so it pretty much had to work.
To me, that was the sign of a hurried solution that wasn’t thought out particularly well. There was no explanation of why Sam thought this plan would work, especially since he’d never been able to throw off a possession before and they had no examples of anyone throwing off angel possession after saying yes. The inclusion of the demon blood in the finale, which I’ve reailed about on this site before, was completely unnecessary and carried unfortunate implications re: the past two seasons. I think the ending of S5 pretty much seemed like a thrown together plan that had to be conceived and enacted hastily because the show had been unexpectedly renewed.
Again, I accept that mileage varies, but the end of S5 just doesn’t work for me, nor does the season as a whole. I’m glad it does work better for others.
Dean’s words to Sam in 5.18 were the end point of what had been building for the last few episodes, though. Dean’s loss of faith in Sam grew from My Bloody Valentine through Dark Side of the Moon (where it was explicit) through 99 Problems to culminate in Dean’s words in 5.18; it seems rather arbitrary and out of the blue to decide that Dean didn’t mean them, especially since the assumption that Sam would say Yes makes Dean’s decision to say Yes himself make a lot more sense.
I’m afraid I don’t see as clear a throughline as you do. I didn’t see 5.14 as indicating some loss of faith in Sam on Dean’s part. I saw him losing faith in his own ability to keep Team Free Will together, as both Castiel and Sam were incapactiated and he’d just been told he was dead inside. I don’t think he blamed Sam what happened in 5.14, nor did I see that as a big loss of faith in Sam as much as his own belief that things were becoming too overwhelming for all of them at that point.
I think I can agree that Dean lost faith in Sam after 5.16 because in his mind, heaven revealed that the deep connection he believed Sam and he shared wasn’t what he thought it was, since, as Sam put it, “Family doesn’t mean the same to me as it does to you.” That was also coupled with the revelation that God was very much aware of what was happening to them but apparently didn’t care enough to lift a finger to help.
Now, because of all these things I will certainly agree that by 5.18 Dean had pretty much lost faith in everyone and everything, most definitely including himself. He thought their mission was lost since the apocalypse was already damning people, as shown to us in 5.17. So Dean grabbed for the only thing he thought could save any of them. So he left to say yes. This wasn’t all about Sam.
Now, I don’t know about you, but I like to think that Sam would never say yes if Michael had taken Dean as a vessel, knowing he might end up killing his brother. Furthermore, if I can attribute that line of reasoning to Sam, I definitely think that it could be attributed to Dean. I don’t think Dean wanted to say yes because he thought he would end up killing Sam–I think it’s more likely he thought that if he said yes, Sam wouldn’t because he wouldn’t want to kill Dean anymore than Dean would want to kill Sam. Then no matter what happened to Michael, Dean would be secure in the knowledge that Sam, Castiel, Bobby, and Lisa/Ben were safe. After all, Dean told Lisa that he planned to make sure Lisa and Ben were taken care of, presumably by making it a condition of saying yes that they be protected. I doubt he would make such a request for Lisa/Ben without extending the same protection to the rest of his family, which would certainly include Sam. Also, with Lucifer in his less than ideal vessel, it seemed more likely that Michael would be able to defeat Lucifer with much less loss of life, which would be another benefit to saying yes first. I find that much more likely a scenario.
Lastly, why would Dean write Sam a good-bye with his prized possessions if he believed he was just going to have to kill Samifer in a matter of time? He wouldn’t, so I think that indicates that he didn’t really expect Sam to say yes after he did.
So I disagree that Dean saying yes because he thought Sam would is the most likely explanation. I think there’s a lot more evidence that runs contrary to Dean’s words in the panic room than support it. After snapping at Bobby and Castiel, as well as sniping with Adam, I saw that Dean was in a foul and desperate mood, and he was taking shots at anyone standing in his way, designed to make them angry enough to leave him alone and not to miss him when he was gone. So I will have to agree to disagree.
I don’t think he WANTED to kill Sam, of course, but I think he had accepted that the thing was inevitably going to play out (he had The End to remember, after all; if he felt he’d failed at the route he’d taken to prevent that future right after 5.4, he could at least avoid the refusal to say Yes until it was too late and the reluctance to kill his brother at the cost of the world).
And the tone of Dean’s words wasn’t angry and provocative, it was sad and resigned. It was something he said he didn’t want to say or believe, not something he put tauntingly or provocatively as a way of pushing Sam away:
SAM
Why not? Dean, seriously. Tell me. I—I want to know.
DEAN
I just…I—I don’t believe.
SAM
In what?
DEAN
In you. I mean, I don’t. I don’t know whether it’s gonna be demon blood or some other demon chick or what, but…I do know they’re gonna find a way to turn you.
SAM
So you’re saying I’m not strong enough.
DEAN
You’re angry, you’re self-righteous. Lucifer’s gonna wear you to the prom, man. It’s just a matter of time.
SAM
Don’t say that to me. Not you…of all people.
DEAN
I don’t want to. But it’s the truth. And when Satan takes you over, there’s got to be somebody there to fight him, and it ain’t gonna be that kid. So, it’s got to be me.
In this case I’m afraid I have to take the evidence of the text over complicated explanations of what was in the character’s mind that contradict his words. Dean may have hoped against hope that it wouldn’t come to that, and I don’t think the tiniest part of him actively desired it, but I think he had, in his point of despair, come to see it as inevitable or at least a very strong possibility, and he was trying to act responsibly in face of that belief, to save what he could.
As I said, I’ll agree to disagree. It’s fine that we see things differently. There are, to me, a lot of things that contradict Dean’s words, so I think it can be a matter of interpretation (though I’m not sure I found my interpretation that complicated :). No worries.
About Dean thinking Sam would say yes. I can honestly see both sides to that argument. I got the impression when I watched that he was at least half serious, but I can see the other side as well.
As far as it being okay for Sam to say yes but not Dean. This is my 2 cents. When Dean was going to say yes, there was still the option of there not being a battle at all. Even after the back up Adam plan. They just had to keep them both from saying yes in order for there not to be a battle. So by Dean saying yes they were definitely going to kill half the planet.
Then Adam said yes. This meant that not having the battle was looking less and less likely. The only reason they hadn’t battle is that Lucifer believed Sam would say yes and he wanted his true vessel.
They found out about the rings. And not have a battle was back on the table. So when Sam was making a decision say yes the options were more like: Wait it out and hope Luci doesn’t getting tired of waiting (like Michael did) and decide to battle in Nick’s form-which fries at least half the plant and maybe the whole planet if Luci wins. OR Give a hail Mary pass and hope that Sam could overcome Lucifer long to jump in the hole.
Now I ready for everyone to shoot holes in that. LOL.
I think you make reasonable points. When Dean was going to say yes, there might have been the possibility of Michael not finding a vessel, though honestly I think that really did go out the window with the reintroduction of Adam. At that point, heaven could have resurrected nearly anyone in the Winchester line and convinced them to say yes, which was the hole in the plot. There was really no reason for heaven to have ever put all of that pressure on Dean, because while he was apparently the “best†vessel, it seemed any old Winchester would actually do. Whether it was heaven getting impatient or the end of the season rising, the battle had to happen and heaven was going to find a way to get things going. But yes, before that Dean saying yes was probable to kill half the planet, though if he, the “best†vessel was present while Lucifer was in an inferior one it seems like the damage might have been minimalized. Nonetheless, Dean was starting a battle that might not have started for a while longer. At the same time, though, how many of the souls on the planet were already being condemned while they were waiting for the battle to start? After all, two episodes later Dean and Sam were stopping the spread of Croatoan. There was no way they would have been able to stop every demon contingent on earth from releasing deadly accidents and whatnot, so the idea that there was a necessity to condemn some to save more wasn’t that far off.
I don’t know that Adam saying yes made the battle less likely. Heaven didn’t seem willing to make the first move, and Lucifer wasn’t willing to make the first move without Sam in place. So by that theory, wouldn’t it have made sense to continue to say no? You could argue that the Croatoan virus was poised to wipe out half the planet, but that argument works just as well for Dean saying yes—preventing the loss of life of all by sacrificing some, so I’m not sure that works.
So then there were the rings. My problem there is that the PTB spent zero time showing TFW researching the various ways they might be able to force Lucifer and Michael into the box. They spent zero time researching angel possession, or talking with Castiel about how it could be overcome. They spent almost zero time discussing the plan and any alternatives. It felt like what it was—it was the end of the season and time for the climax, so let’s just throw the plan out there and act like it was the only option. With more time and care, maybe they could have made that case, but to me, they failed. There was no reason for any of them to think they were doing anything but handing the planet over to Lucifer on a plate. Therefore, I don’t think show built a foundation where they could have Sam and TFW have any reason to think that Sam saying yes was any better than Dean saying yes when by Sam’s admission it was most likely to be much worse.
Sorry, it seems I’m on the other side again.
By ‘lift’ I thought Kelly(?) meant ‘steal’ too, she actually means lift, I think.
In the mentalists Sam was angry and needed time to work things out. This was after Dean had lied and betrayed his trust. He lied about Amy and this was after Dean asked Sam to make him his stone #1. By Lying (i dont care about Amy…I care about the lying)Dean not only damaged Sam’s stone but he domolished it to smitherines. And then Dean had the audacity to tell Sam he had no right to his own feelings. Dean called Sam a ‘bitch’ for not snapping to Deans time table.
At the end of Good God ya’ll Sam faced the reality that his addiction was still very much present. Kripke once likened Sam’s addiction like heroin and said demons were like walking, talking heroin. He felt he had to leave hunting because he was afraid (and rightly so) wasn’t on his game.. He knew he was screwed up. Sam HAD to work on himself – get his head on straight before he could further work to repair his relationship with Dean. But Lucifer (and certain hunters) wasn’t going to give Sam that time.
So honestly I dont think those two events should be boiled down to something as simple as ‘sam left Dean or he rejected Dean.’
Also….I think Sam DID go off and hunt by himself After Dean refused to hunt with Sam. I fanwank that Sam came up with the Horseman rings on his own and got Ellen and Jo to help him lay his trap for Lucifer. (Ellen and Jo wern’t at Deans compound in The End). So, Sam succeeded in trapping Lucifer inside him with the idea Ellen and Jo would say the spell to open the Gate. Only Lucifer takes Sam over and Destiny/Fate reinserts itself and Ellen and Jo die trying to complete the trap. Thus why Sam said yes to Lucifer in The End.
[quote]
Also….I think Sam DID go off and hunt by himself After Dean refused to hunt with Sam. I fanwank that Sam came up with the Horseman rings on his own and got Ellen and Jo to help him lay his trap for Lucifer. (Ellen and Jo wern’t at Deans compound in The End). So, Sam succeeded in trapping Lucifer inside him with the idea Ellen and Jo would say the spell to open the Gate. Only Lucifer takes Sam over and Destiny/Fate reinserts itself and Ellen and Jo die trying to complete the trap. Thus why Sam said yes to Lucifer in The End.[/quote]
I’m assuming you mean in The End’s alternative reality.
I always thought that somehow Sam learned about the rings power and tried the same plan, but without Dean. So it failed. Because without Dean in SS, he wasn’t able to win control from Lucifer. I just have trouble imaging any other situation where Sam would say yes, knowing what it would mean.
EXACTLY!!!!!!! I’m thrilled I am not the only one who came to this conclusion!!!
I completely agree that Sam had every right to be angry at Dean after the Amy fight, and he had every right to want time for himself.
I agree that at the end of 5.2 Sam fully realized the depth of his addiction and was worried about his ability to cope and hunt at hte same time. But these things did not happen in a vaccuum, and Dean did still have his own issues and feelings that weren’t taken into account when Sam decided to leave. So Sam might have taken time to work on himself, but with Sam burning his i.d.s I think show left a question about whether Sam was ever planning on coming back. And yes, Sam has the right to take whatever action he wants, but by that argument Dean was under no obligation to take Sam back at the beginning of 5.4, because he would similarly have the right to take whatever action he wants.
I don’t know if we ever saw anything in canon about how Sam ended up saying yes. It’s possible that he continued on the same path, finding the rings and trying to trap Lucifer. 5.4, in its attempt to hammer the message home that if Dean didn’t reunite with Sam he would say yes, seemed to be trying to indicate that Sam’s saying yes would be Dean’s responsibility, so it’s just as possible that we were supposed to take from it that without Dean Sam would fall into despair and say yes. I’ve never given it much thought, so one interpretation is probably just as right as another.
I answered the Dean thing in my other post. But I agree he was under not obligation to take Sam back. I can completely understand why he didn’t. But it was still sad. They were just both so broken at that point.
Yeah, there is nothing in canon about why Sam said yes as far as I know. That was pure supposition. I know Sam showed some weakness of character by trusting Ruby, but he thought he was doing the right thing. I have trouble IMAGINING(typoed last time) that he would knowingly destroy the world and Dean along with it. But if things got bad enough, I could see him risking the plan like that to try to save to world.
But we will likely never know.
No, I agree here, actually. I don’t think Sam would have said yes, just not caring that he would destroy the world and Dean along with it. I don’t think there was ever a point where Sam would say, “You know what? Screw everything. Yes.” I do think he could be tortured into saying yes, same as Dean was in Hell, and I guess that’s always what I figured happened. But your interpretation works just as well. Maybe better.
And this is why i abhore Carvers’ use of Perception for Sam in Season 8. He is going to tell us one thing about Sam which will make Sam look like a bad, uncaring brother/person. By the time they correct the perception…IF THEY HAVE TIME and they use that time wisely….people’s minds will already be set about Sam.
Kripke used perception in Season 4 and GAmble used Perception in s6/7. Sam hasn’t fully recovered from those negative perceptions. Partly because the writers fail to address the perceptions (lack of time? Lack of care for Sam?) and Sam always suffers for it.
[quote]And this is why i abhore Carvers’ use of Perception for Sam in Season 8. He is going to tell us one thing about Sam which will make Sam look like a bad, uncaring brother/person. By the time they correct the perception…IF THEY HAVE TIME and they use that time wisely….people’s minds will already be set about Sam. Kripke used perception in Season 4 and GAmble used Perception in s6/7. Sam hasn’t fully recovered from those negative perceptions. Partly because the writers fail to address the perceptions (lack of time? Lack of care for Sam?) and Sam always suffers for it.[/quote]I will also add why only Sam is given the “privilege” (rolling eyes) of Perception.Dean goes to hell it is Sam stuck with perception.Sam goes to hell surprise.surprise Sam is stuck with perception.Now it looks like Sam is the (un)lucky winner of perception again.When did they give us Sam’s Pov (whatever measly amout of it they gave us) in season 4 ?just one episode before the s04 finale.That is how much they care about Sam.
[quote]I will also add why only Sam is given the “privilege” (rolling eyes) of Perception.Dean goes to hell it is Sam stuck with perception.Sam goes to hell surprise.surprise Sam is stuck with perception.Now it looks like Sam is the (un)lucky winner of perception again.[/quote]
In this case I don’t agree with you. I don’t think we know yet what Carver means by perception. It could very well be that we see a lot of Dean in the first half, and see him doing a lot of suspicious things, but that we don’t understand his motivations until later in the season. It’s also possible that Sam won’t be portrayed as unsympathetic at the beginning of the season as the online fandom is assuming from the spoilers.
This actually has me even more worried. I am afraid that Dean will behave suspiciously at first. Sam will find out about Bennie and try to take care of him, just like Dean took care of Amy. We will then discover that our perceptions were wrong and Benny is really a monster with a heart of gold and Sam was wrong, wrong, wrong to touch a hair on Benny’s head.
Before someone says never, I was reminded that JC wrote Sin City, the episode where the demon Casey KILLS Dean’s friend Casey and then bonds with Dean. Dean tried to tell Sam not to kill her after their bonding session. Sam doesn’t get any credit even though Ruby never kills someone in their sight and even though she is helpful for a large part of her run. No, Dean gets to judge who is a monster and who isn’t and Sam? Well Sam gets to be wrong forever and ever and ever (see Lenore who Sam trusted and then later turned into a killer).
If I recall correctly, Carver first used the perception line to talk about purgatory, and then, though he was responding to a question about Sam not looking for Dean, he used it again of how we might see “one brother” differently early and late in the season, carefully not specifying which. So I do sort of suspect that it might be as much or more about Dean as about Sam, though I don’t think it’s going to be meant to make Sam look bad in Dean’s storyline.
I honestly don’t think it occurred to Carver that his Sam storyline would strike fans as unsympathetic. He didn’t present it at Comic Con as though he were dropping a bombshell, and I think he may have been rather taken aback by the fan reaction. So I don’t think they are going to be in any way intentionally presenting Sam as the bad brother. I think we are meant to be seeing his moving on as ultimately a good and healthy thing. But I also don’t think there is any great revelation coming about why Sam didn’t look for Dean. I suspect that we’ll learn in 8.1 that he assumed Dean was dead, hand wave the improbable aspects of that, and that will be it, except for Dean and the audience maybe coming to understand more emotionally about how Sam grieved and let go.
I could be wrong, I hope I’m wrong and there is something in the actual plot of Sam’s story, but I’ve just never gotten the impression in the spoilers that Sam getting past searching for Dean was the kind of problem to the writers that it is to a lot of fans, so I don’t think they see it as a mystery that has to be solved.
[quote] So I do sort of suspect that it might be as much or more about Dean as about Sam, though I don’t think it’s going to be meant to make Sam look bad in Dean’s storyline.[/quote]
You have more faith than I do. Last season the spoilers were about Sam coping with the aftermath of his wall falling. Dean fans were incensed that Dean wasn’t getting a storyline. The writers couldn’t run fast enough to interviewers to tell them that they were in fact going to explore Dean’s relationship to hunting for 13 episodes. This year the Sam fans are fairly frantic about the spoilers and the writers are telling us that Jared is getting 5 days off of shooting and Jensen is begging for Sam to get more screen time. The message is clear, Sam fans need not apply, we are unimportant. The writers will mouth platitudes about how important the brotherly bond is, but at the end of the day, the brotherly bond apparently does not include seeing Sam.
Perhaps JC has decided on stricter control of spoilers and I will be surprised. Perhaps Sam will get a storyline outside of “has a love interest in the past and mostly off screen”. I have believed the stories every year that THIS YEAR Sam will finally be a real person with an actual POV instead of behaving mysteriously and turning out to have something wrong with him seeing how Dean feels about the something wrong and when the something wrong is fixed never hearing about it again, because unless it affects Dean the writers just don’t care. Now JC is on board and all I hear is that we will hear about Purgatory (so Sam can’t have a viewpoint, because he wasn’t there) and Kevin and Benny and Amelia. As for Sam, well he gets a dog, but probably it will be a talking dog who will tell us how HE views Sam while Sam says nothing.
I have honestly never been so discouraged about an upcoming season. I hope I am wrong. If I’m not, then I think I am finally done.
The idea that the showrunner couldn’t foresee the problem w/having Sam not even bother looking for Dean scares me for Sam.
Dean sold his soul for Sam, and when Dean disappears, Sam can’t even be bothered to investigate!?!?!?!?! Really?!?!?! Is that what I’m supposed to believe? That’s awful!
I mean . . . just how many busses will Sam be tossed under this year?
Well, I don’t think that even at my most pessimistic I can imagine that it will actually play out as Sam “just not bothering” to investigate. Jared has confirmed that Sam doesn’t just abandon Dean, and Carver has stated repeatedly that part of the Amelia storyline is Sam and Amelia both grieving losses, which certainly implies that Sam is fully convinced he’s lost Dean, whatever his reasons. I’m worried that Sam will come out looking incompetent, because it’s clear that the finale (in which Carver had no input) was written to set up a Sam searching for Dean storyline, and I’m not sure it will be possible to splice a very different storyline onto that convincingly, but I’m sure they will try to give Sam a good reason to think Dean is not recoverable. It may not be good enough not to feel handwavy, but I am a hundred percent certain that Carver knows that “couldn’t be bothered” isn’t a reason. Sam essentially shrugging and walking away won’t happen.
Oh, you have way more faith than I do, and I am completely pessimisstic about Sam’s storyline! Last year burned me too badly. HCW was such a tease. It teased a quite interesting storyline that never came to fruition. It just sputtered and died on me!
I want to expect nothing so I’m not bitterly disappointed when that’s what I get or I can be pleasantly surprised if it’s a little better than the nothing I was expecting. Hahaha!
I don’t watch Supernatural for romance so the whole Amelia angle does nothing for me. And since we know they’re broken up when the season airs, I just can’t get excited about Sam’s time w/her. Plus, I seriously question how much of Sam’s life w/her can be shown when Sam was basically out of the “supernatural” world for a year. They can’t spend much time on FBs for Sam b/c those FBs will have nothing to do w/the show.
And to be brutally honest – I just don’t care about Sam’s relationship w/Amelia. I don’t care how he met her, what they did together, or why they broke up! LOL! Amelia is like Lisa to me in that way. And it’s not like I dislike romance; I love romance but for whatever reason, I’ve never been interested in longterm romance on this show! It’s just never been a reason why I watch the show.
[quote]And to be brutally honest – I just don’t care about Sam’s relationship w/Amelia. I don’t care how he met her, what they did together, or why they broke up! LOL! Amelia is like Lisa to me in that way. And it’s not like I dislike romance; I love romance but for whatever reason, I’ve never been interested in longterm romance on this show! It’s just never been a reason why I watch the show.[/quote]
I don’t watch the show for romance either, though I do think it helps make the boys and their world more well-rounded and realistic when it crops up throughout the series. They need relationships outside of each other, and some of those realistically will be romantic in nature. As character,s they both need it and deserve it. That doesn’t mean it will turn into a soap opera by any stretch of the imagination, but it’s just another facet of this multi-dimensional series.
I also view it differently in that, because I love Dean and Sam, I care for their relationships and the other characters they love. I.e. I probably wouldn’t have cared about Lisa and Ben so much if they hadn’t meant so much to Dean. But he truly cared for them, and that endeared them to me. I think if you’re going to truly care about a character it has to be holistic. And so, because this Amelia character is important to Sam (though we don’t know for certain how much or to what extent) unless she hurts him, I will care about her.
I don’t quite understand what you mean by “They can’t spend much time on FBs for Sam b/c those FBs will have nothing to do w/the show.” Those flashbacks have everything to do with the show because they ARE part of the show. Those flashbacks will be a representative of a part of Sam’s life. We don’t know how much time will be spent there or how important that relationship will be to Sam’s growth as a character this season or the different plots. It could be quite compelling. I mean, Sam hasn’t had a healthy relationship since Jess. And in any case – the main story of this season involves – [i]not[/i] a romance with Amelia – but a mytharc involving [b]both[/b] brothers on the road together, fighting to close the gates of Hell.
These spoilers came primarily out of questions asking – ‘what happened to Dean in Purgatory’ and ‘what did Sam do for that year Dean was gone’ – remember – the season starts that year will be [i]over[/i], (though it will be revisited in flashbacks). So while the answer to the question about Sam may seem less than compelling -[i] it’s not his storyline for the whole season[/i]. He’s not even with Amelia when the season starts. So while I can appreciate that “the Amelia angle does nothing” for some, I think people are focusing too much on that. The big story this year is closing the gates of Hell. That was very obvious from the both the spoilers and the previews. I think people are unnecessarily treating these plot “crumbs” as if they are the whole cake.
This is a somewhat tangential point, but my main problem with the Amelia storyline per se (as opposed to my worries about how they are going to account for Sam thinking the search for Dean is impossible without making it look as though he’s abruptly lost a hundred IQ points between Time After Time and 7.23) is that I think to convincingly write a romance for Sam at this point they’d have to spend a LOT of time on it, more than could possibly fit with the other stuff they have going on. I know that there’s a certain degree of necessary suspension of disbelief in Sam and Dean being functional at all — I suspect in a strictly realist universe they’d both be catatonic from trauma — but with Sam there’s so much baggage attached specifically to sex and romance that I just wonder how they will touch on it enough to make the relationship seem authentic without getting stuck in a labyrinth they have no time to explore.
I mean, think about it. Sam has seen three women he was involved with die in front of him: Jess was killed by a demon possessing Sam’s friend because of who Sam was, Madison Sam killed himself, Ruby Dean killed. His last significant relationship was with a demon inhabiting the body of a dead woman, a demon who both betrayed Sam by lying to him and manipulating him and was inextricably involved with Sam’s own terrible choices. Moreover, he was addicted to her blood. And he has memories of a self who wasn’t really him but wasn’t really not him, sleeping his way across the country.
Add to that, it’s been very strongly hinted that Lucifer raped Sam in the Cage, and Sam has experienced multiple dissociations between his self and his body, some of them sexualized (Meg menaced Jo while possessing Sam in a scene that had strong sexual overtones, Gary had sex with a dominatrix while stealing Sam’s body.)
It just seems like there’s so much Sam would have to work through to even begin to have a stable and healthy relationship that Jared describing it as “a normal relationship with normal problems” just has me scratching my head a bit.
You have some excellent points, Etheldred, that I completely agree with (unfortunately for me, as I was trying to stay positive).
In addition, I myself had said repeatedly (to those that might argue) that since the scene where Sam and Cas discuss how changed Sam will be physically, after drinking enough demon blood to properly house Lucifer- that Sam would NEVER put himself in a situation where there would be even the remote possibility of his having children of his own. He just wouldn’t, no question, not with the possibility of passing that on. It does make this SL all a bit problematic. Hmm, hopefully this will be addressed.
Hmm, somehow I don’t think of demon blood as causing genetic mutation that Sam would pass down to his kids — maybe just because that sounds more sci fi than fantasy — but Dean and Sam do both have the problem that any children they have are potential angelic vessels. And they know, with the whole Raphael thing, that it’s not impossible that somewhere down the line Michael and Lucifer might be released and the whole apocalypse start up again. But I think we have to accept that the writers and/or Sam and Dean don’t view this as a major concern (I wonder if Emma was a possible Michael vessel?), if only because Sam hasn’t made any effort to make sure that soulless!Sam didn’t beget any children.
But what could he do about it if SS had begat?
I just can’t help remembering that Cas was essentially repeating what he’d said much earlier to Dean- that Sam would be fundamentally and irrevocably changed (and went on to say that Sam would become something Dean would hunt, but that’s because Cas is a manipulative bastard IMHO)
Rick D, I always figured that when God “cleaned Sam up” after 4.22 he could’ve easily reversed any serious and long-term effects the blood might have had on him, so I’ve always thought, that other than the mental repercussions, like how he seemed to crave it in 5.02 and especially in 5.14, that it’s not too much of stretch to believe that otherwise, physically and genetically, at least, he was OK.
Yes, but Castiel told Dean that the blood Sam had to drink to become Lucifer’s vessel would alter him permanently again, and God seemingly had no interest in either Sam or Dean after Swan Song.
You’re right, I totally forgot about that, my bad. 😳
Honestly though, I don’t give that much thought to the white-picket fence, kids happily-ever after thing cause I think’s it’s just been totally overdone as a TV show ending, and kind of cheesy. That’s not to say I don’t want Sam and Dean to have that, I just don’t think we need to see it.
I agree that the main reason why I can’t ever see a “happy ending” with Sam and Dean married and with kids is because neither one would want to have any of their descendants be possible angel vessels. Since they never explained much about archangel vessels, except that there seemed to be a genetic component, I think Emma could have been a Michael vessel, or a Lucifer vessel (now that would be something) or if they had been alive a potential Gabriel or Raphael vessel, although Raphael seems to have a link to African-American vessels. I mostly thought that Sam had the potential to host an archangel and the demon blood made certain that he was perfect for Lucifer, but Lord knows, they just kind of threw it out that the boys were archangel vessels and John had been a Michael vessel and they left it at that.
I really can’t see Sam ever becoming a father, for all the reasons we have mentioned, but after everything I could never see him giving up hunting and that is obviously not true. As to Soulless!Sam and any potential children, I’m sure that ship has sailed. I can handwave that SS at the very least was aware of STD’s and would not have risked contracting anything that would slow him down, so he used protection. OTOH, they may want to leave the door open that Sam has a kid so they can do a story around that some day. They did it with Ben and they seem to be determined to repeat the Dean/Lisa story, so why not have SS be careless.
The other, somewhat related to the kids issue (because Amelia surely has a right to know if a failure of birth control with Sam could have consequences beyond the usual), thing that I just can’t wrap my mind around about the Amelia thing is that Sam apparently conceals the supernatural from her. I get that Sam and Dean make bad mistakes. I even get that sometimes they repeat the same bad mistakes; people do get stuck in harmful patterns. But after what happened to Jess and the guilt Sam felt for not having told her, and then what Sam saw happen with Lisa and Ben — and it was CROWLEY who kidnapped them, for heaven’s sake, Sam can hardly have forgotten in the wake of 7.23 that Crowley is out there and capable of using loved ones to put pressure on Winchesters — I honestly can’t imagine Sam repeating that particular mistake, not finding some way of letting Amelia know that there was potential danger in involvement with him, even if he wasn’t ready to share the whole demon blood, Lucifer, apocalypse, hell story with her. There seem to be a few too many aspects to Sam’s storyline that require him to be not just a flawed and limited human, as he is, but sort of incomprehensibly unintelligent. I think it’s something that good writing could explain, but I do hope they see it as a problem the story needs to address, and not the lazy thing of having Sam simply repeat his s1 behaviors because they are going for a s1 atmosphere.
Percy, its always been my belief that Sam – as the Great Internalizer – thought about all this a long time ago. Its my fanwank that after teh hewitch gave Sam the Clap that at the end of the episode when he left to get his booster shot….Sam simply got a vasectimy while he was there. Or Souless decided to get the snipping down. He would see the logic in that, i think.
I sort of can’t see Amelia being a sounding board for Sam…as she’s a damaged soul herself according to Carver. I dont see how she can help Sam. Especially if i recall correctly Carver said Sam doesn’t tell Amelia about Hunting.
Well, Carver also said they wrote Amelia as the kind of woman who could heal that shattered thing in Sam.
Which, frankly, I think is sentimental hogwash, especially as so much of Sam’s damage has its origins in and around relationships. Not that I think he could never be happy with any woman again, but I think realistically that starting a new relationship would bring a lot of his damage to the surface in a major way. Maybe that’s why they are broken up at the start of the season, or maybe it’s something to do with Sam realizing she’ll be vulnerable to supernatural danger.
Re: Romance – Supernatural has been on the air for 7 years, and prior to the Lisa/Ben debacle, the show [i]survived [/i] and [i]succeeded [/i], IMO, w/o a longterm, semi-permanent romance for either brotehr. For 5 years, the show moved along w/o it, and I don’t recall any of the audience clamoring for it. I used to visit many Supernatural boards, and no one was asking for the boys to get girlfriends. It’s just not necessary, IMO, and their lives aren’t conducive to traditional romance.
I contend that Supernatural is a show that does NOT need longterm romance to be successful or to be fulfilling. I’ve never had a burning desire to see Sam or Dean in a long time, multi-episode romance w/someone.
Re: the FBs – The show is all about the supernatural. I don’t see how a show about the supernatural can spend extensive periods of time on Sam’s romance when that has nothing to do w/the supernatural. If Sam was hunting or looking for Dean during their year apart, then the writers aren’t giving us much to see when it comes to Sam. Any Sam FB episode can’t be focused solely on Sam b/c Sam was taken out of the supernatural. Do we really want to see Sam apartment hunting or buying groceries or going to the movies? Not really. That’s why Dean’s boring life w/Lisa was shown in a quick montage. Because most of the audience iwasn’t interested in Dean grilling burgers; they wanted to see him salting and burning a ghost or cutting the head off of a vampire!
I believe Sam’s life w/Amelia will be shown in snippets, which will likely hurt the story. I’m going to be confusing right now and speak out of both sides of my mouth – I hated Lisa/Ben and had no desire to see them on the show but felt they probably should have been shown more so the story would make more sense. I could never get into the story b/c they weren’t featured that often. Lisa and Ben were like an annoyance of which I hoped Dean would finally rid himself.
For me, it takes more than Dean or Sam loving the person for me to like or care about the character. I never bought Dean’s “love” for Lisa. That entire story was contrived and forced. Dean hadn’t thought of Lisa in 2 years, but Kripke wanted us to suddenly buy that Lisa, of all people, was the person Dean thought of when he wanted to go to his “happy place” or whatever. Ha! What a joke!
Sam’s romance will start off better simply b/c it will be more natural and organic. Amelia may be likeable . I can’t say. But I’m guessing we won’t see much of her – which will be a problem – because (1) they are already broken up when the season premieres and (2) she really has nothing to do w/the premise of the show. In order for this romance to work, they’re going to have to really show it, and I doubt they’ll do that in the way it needs to be done. We can’t go back and forth btw Sam and Amelia having their first fight and then Dean doing something in Purgatory. The Sam/Amelia scenes will bring the action to a grinding halt reminiscent of the Dean/Ben/Lisa scenes in M3: TR.
Snippets here and there won’t be sufficient, but the writers simply cannot dedicate an entire show to Sam’s year alone b/c this is a show about the supernatural and they took Sam out of the supernatural for the year.
They haven’t given him a separate story to tell, and w/Benny and Castiel in the picture, I’m sure they’ll be front and center in this Gates of Hell story or whatever. I can’t say I would be too surprised if Sam doesn’t have much active involvement in this story.
[quote]Supernatural has been on the air for 7 years, and prior to the Lisa/Ben debacle, the show survived and succeeded , IMO, w/o a longterm, semi-permanent romance for either brotehr. For 5 years, the show moved along w/o it, and I don’t recall any of the audience clamoring for it. I used to visit many Supernatural boards, and no one was asking for the boys to get girlfriends. It’s just not necessary, IMO, and their lives aren’t conducive to traditional romance.
I contend that Supernatural is a show that does NOT need longterm romance to be successful or to be fulfilling. I’ve never had a burning desire to see Sam or Dean in a long time, multi-episode romance w/someone. [/quote]
I am by no means contending that Supernatural needs a longterm multi-episode relationship arc to be successful or fulfilling. And I agree it could survive without any romance – but it would be strange I think not to have relationships “crop up” as intersecting, tangential storylines. There was Jess/Sam, Cassie/Dean, Madison/Sarah/Sam, Lisa/Dean – they’ve “cropped up” throughout the series adding a bit of flavor and spice and drama. The boys will never really have traditional romances, of course. And this, of course, is not a show where romance is the focus. I’m not advocating for that – heavens no! But I think it’s healthy, realistic, and necessary for them to have relationships with other characters, and I am supportive of that.
[quote]I don’t see how a show about the supernatural can spend extensive periods of time on Sam’s romance when that has nothing to do w/the supernatural.[/quote]
I don’t think there will be an extensive focus on Sam’s romance exactly because it has nothing to do with the overarching theme/Supernatural story of closing the Gates of Hell. That’s kind of my point – it’s not the main plot of S8.
[quote]Do we really want to see Sam apartment hunting or buying groceries or going to the movies? Not really. That’s why Dean’s boring life w/Lisa was shown in a quick montage. Because most of the audience iwasn’t interested in Dean grilling burgers; they wanted to see him salting and burning a ghost or cutting the head off of a vampire![/quote]
Well, I will speak for myself and say that I didn’t think Dean’s life with Lisa was “boring” because I was interested in how living out that normal life affected him as a Hunter and a character. I certainly can’t speak for “most of the audience” but if Sam does normal things in these flashbacks I’m sure it will be interesting to see how he reacts to a normal life after all he’s been through, how he grieves the loss of his brother, how he loves after losing everything, how normal life affects Sam as a hunter, and how it plays into his character’s growth. I dare say that if all Supernatural consisted of was two guys going around burning, shooting, and killing things – with no other character-growth plots, the show wouldn’t have lasted this long – there’d be no substance. Even the things many fans like most about the show don’t have to do with the hunting and killing monsters, it has to do with the brothers’ relationship with each other and the rest of the world. So yes, if the show has Sam apartment hunting and grocery shopping in these flashbacks, I will be interested. I will want to see how that “normal life” results or reveals character growth/development.
[quote]For me, it takes more than Dean or Sam loving the person for me to like or care about the character. I never bought Dean’s “love” for Lisa. That entire story was contrived and forced. Dean hadn’t thought of Lisa in 2 years, but Kripke wanted us to suddenly buy that Lisa, of all people, was the person Dean thought of when he wanted to go to his “happy place” or whatever. Ha! What a joke! [/quote]
I agree that the initial S3 meeting of Lisa was extremely contrived. But I forgave that after watching their interactions throughout S6. And Dean thinking of Lisa when he wanted to go to his ‘happy place’ is no less irrational than you or I thinking of Sam and Dean (or Jensen and Jared) – fictional characters and people we’ve either never met or don’t know personally – when we go to our ‘happy places.’ So I can accept that Dean had this idealized fantasy of her in his mind.
[quote]Snippets here and there won’t be sufficient, but the writers simply cannot dedicate an entire show to Sam’s year alone b/c this is a show about the supernatural and they took Sam out of the supernatural for the year.[/quote]
We have no real idea of how it will be shown or how much time the flashbacks will take up – but the one thing we do know is that it’s not the entire storyline for Sam this S8. It’s only the story of what he was doing while Dean was in Purgatory, and we don’t know if it will come to play beyond that.
[quote]They haven’t given him a separate story to tell, and w/Benny and Castiel in the picture, I’m sure they’ll be front and center in this Gates of Hell story or whatever. I can’t say I would be too surprised if Sam doesn’t have much active involvement in this story.[/quote]
This is what bugs me – Dean and Sam both, equally, together, have a storyline this season called “Closing the Gates of Hell.” – That’s the major theme and drive and arc of the season. Sounds great to me. Before we get to that, though there will be the “Explaining what Happened to Dean and Sam the Year Dean was in Purgatory” arc. That’s where we get Sam and Amelia, and Dean and Castiel. These are minor arcs – unless they turn out to play a role in the major arc, which could very well be – but we don’t know.
Benny is legit character who, while connected to Dean, is likely to play a role all season as a bad guy, just like Crowley. So, what?
Then there’s Kevin, who hopefully won’t be an annoying third wheel to the Winchesters. He is a good guy who seems to have more of a connection to Sam. So, what? I’m not seeing the problem here. Why is there so much emphasis on the brother’s having separate storylines? Seems pretty balanced to me. The only difference is that Dean has a “flashier” minor storyarc. But those vary season to season. This season seems like it will be pretty fair, with a focus on something that will unite the brothers in a quest that sounds pretty cool. How is that not “active involvement”?
Well I am totally pessimistic. I have seen NOTHING since season three that shows any indication that the writers care one iota about Sam, his POV or anything other than making Sam look like “the problem” EVERY SINGLE SEASON. I completely, totally expect Sam to be thrown under the bus, if for no other reason than to make Benny the evil vampire look good in comparison.
I am looking at this season with complete and total dread. I literally feel sick to my stomach when I hear the spoilers. I keep telling myself to give them a chance, and I have promised myself to last the entire season in order to be fair, but right now all I see is the writers having the new shiny thing in Benny, and a new hero in Kevin and heck a strong fighter in Keven’s mother. Also there is a deep need to make Castiel good and pure. All the comments show the writers feel no need to have Sam in the show other than the vague awareness that much of the fandom still cares about the brotherly bond. So the writers will give lip service to the bond and spit on Sam every chance they get.
I know I’m being irrational, but every, single spoiler points to every other character being more important than Sam, possibly including Amelia.
Percy, I’m with you! Nothing about this upcoming season interests me. I’m not interested in Dean doing bad things in Purgatory or becoming frenemies w/some monster. I never cared much about Kevin Tran and certainly don’t care about his mom. I don’t care about Sam and his relationship w/the doctor. I don’t care about them closing Hell’s gates or whatever.
I’m not at all excited for the new season. Some part of me wonders if the bitterness I feel over the complete and utter disaster that was Season 7 is seeping over to Season 8.
I’m still very angry over how much they wasted Sam’s hallucination storyline!
[quote]Well I am totally pessimistic. I have seen NOTHING since season three that shows any indication that the writers care one iota about Sam, his POV or anything other than making Sam look like “the problem” EVERY SINGLE SEASON. I completely, totally expect Sam to be thrown under the bus, if for no other reason than to make Benny the evil vampire look good in comparison.
I am looking at this season with complete and total dread. I literally feel sick to my stomach when I hear the spoilers. [/quote]
Percysowner, I mean no disrespect, but if you truly feel this way, then how in the world are you still watching this show? That’s an honest question. I’m appalled and saddened that you so firmly believe that this show and it’s writers could do such a willful disservice to the co-lead and main character. I don’t agree with you, but understand you are entitled to your opinions and feelings. I just truly wonder – if it’s [i]that[/i] bad, and you’ve felt this way since S3, and have no hope for future seasons, then how do you keep watching if it generates such negative energy?
Also, Levee was split between Sam’s hallucinations and Dean’s reactions to them and Dean’s deal with Castiel that he would do what the Angels wanted if they left Sam out of things. OTOH, Castiel got an entire episode to monolog through describing his every thought and action and defending himself before HE went off the deep end and killed Dr Visniak, destroyed Sam’s mind and opened Purgatory. This was something that Sam NEVER, EVER got. And yes, I will always resent that along with burying Sam’s insanity storyline only to give it to (surprise, surprise) Castiel.
[quote]
….Castiel got an entire episode to monolog through describing his every thought and action and defending himself before HE went off the deep end and killed Dr Visniak, destroyed Sam’s mind and opened Purgatory. This was something that Sam NEVER, EVER got. And yes, I will always resent that along with burying Sam’s insanity storyline only to give it to (surprise, surprise) Castiel.[/quote]
This is exactly what ruined the show for my daughter… the one who introduced me to Supernatural as the greatest show she’d ever seen. She quit watching after 7.15, said she was sick and tired of the way Sams issues and plots were brushed off in favour of Castiel, and has never tuned in again. 🙁
Sorry – 7.17 Born Again Identity
As has been mentioned before, Sam did come back for Dean after Scarecrow. He also came after Dean twice in Point of No Return. Even Soulless Sam returned to Dean when Dean was in trouble in Exile On Main Street. He also came to Dean in Two and a Half Men even when soulless and when Dean had decided not to join him in hunting.
As to leaving Dean on the run from the Angels in 5.02, as far as Sam and Dean knew, they were both flying under the radar with at the time. Cas had inscribed the Enochian symbols into both of their ribs, so the Angels couldn’t find Dean. Furthermore, maybe I’m misremembering, but the only time Dean came even close to being tortured by the Angels and Zachariah was when they emotionally manipulated him into torturing Alistair. You remember, when Sam WENT LOOKING FOR and FOUND Dean and saved him from Alistair. Zachariah did a number on Dean’s mind, but he NEVER tortured him. He made Dean realize he was “made to hunt” in It’s a Terrible Life (Actually in IATL Sam was shown to be MORE pulled to hunting than Dean, SAM was the one who decided to continue the fight against evil and who asked Dean to join him). Zachariah did more mind messing in Dark Side of the Moon, in which Zachariah decided what Dean should see and not see about Sam’s heaven. Even when Dean threw away the amulet, a gesture of rejection of Sam, Sam didn’t leave, he simply accepted the fact that Dean didn’t trust or even love him anymore. Basically, as far as I could see, Sam was trying to get clean from addiction in 5.02. However, that time he didn’t run away, he told Dean what he was thinking and when Dean agreed that he was hindering Dean he left. If Sam had stayed you would be saying how terrible it was that he stayed with Dean while knowing he was a liability.
And finally, The Pilot, where the Dean always tracks down Sam motif begins. In the Pilot we find out about the credit card scams AND that Dean and John use aliases consistently. In Phantom Traveler, Dean is surprised that Jerry(?) knew his cell number because he only got the new number 6 months ago. He tells Sam this, meaning that Sam wasn’t there when he got the new number. This is further supported by the fact that John know Dean’s new number. Considering that Dean was living a transient life, using aliases and changing his number, how could Sam have EVER contacted him if he wanted to come back. If Dean hadn’t been there and Brady had initiated the plan to burn Jess on the ceiling, in order to get Sam back in the game, who could Sam had turned to. Yes, Sam left for college, but John laid down the edict that if Sam left that was it. As far as we know, Dean didn’t break that edict until John went missing. Then and only then, did Dean contact Sam. Later, in Bugs, Dean tells Sam that JOHN checked up on Sam at Stanford. Dean NEVER tells Sam that he bothered to check on Sam. Sam calling Dean when desperate that Lucifer intends to use him as his vessel is parallel to Dean contacting Sam when he is desperate to find John. The only difference is that when Sam hears that Dean “doesn’t want to do it alone” he goes with Dean. When Dean hears that Sam is being hounded by the ultimate evil, he tells Sam that he is on his own, Dean isn’t interested. Has Sam earned it by his actions in season four, I don’t think so, but if you do I won’t argue. In the end, Sam responds to Dean’s needs, Dean rejects Sam’s.
They have both lied and betrayed each others trust. They still keep things from each other Sometimes to protect the other one. Sometimes because they are ashamed about something. Sometimes so they won’t appear weak. It is a cycle that never ends no matter what. Will they ever learn that it is always detrimental?
One thing I will never agree with is that Dean EVER stopped loving Sam. No matter how ugly things got between them it was the love that brought them together. Dean can be a total jerk at times. Sam has had his moments too. BUT they have mostly forgiven each other for everything. They will always have issues with each other, if they can forgive each other why can’t the fans give them a break!
Hi Emmau,
I know, I know I am being a picky one… your argument is valid, I am just pointing at that that one example as not being a great one imho. In canon Dean has always been the peace maker in their family, and it is possible that Dean has run after Sam to reunite them more than the other way around, but I think that it is a little more balanced than some people believe as I demonstrated when listing the episodes in my previous post. I really do feel that in 5.4, it was up to Dean to go to Sam to reunite because of the previous rejection. I don’t think Sam would have called Dean or tried to track him down after that. Remember Sam was still in apology mode at this point, and very unsure of himself and cautious.
It’s interesting though, rejection is a two way street. It’s absolutely true, that Dean feels rejected every time that Sam walks away from him (like I said, NOT my fav character trait of Sam’s) and yet Dean rejects Sam too, just not by running away. He belittle’s Sam’s choices, is critical until Sam does things the way Dean wants them done or makes the choices Dean has decided that are right for Sam, even to the point of making those choices for him. (I hope this doesn’t sound too critical, I really do love, love, love Dean).
You argue that Sam walked away from Dean when the angels were after him in 5.2, and he was possibly in danger from them. But I counter argue that Sam was in as much danger if not more from the demons at this point. I always got the impression that Sam felt Dean was safer than he was because he had angels in his corner, (Cas was openly backing Dean by this point and keeping him safe) and that Sam worried that HE wasn’t safe because he had demons surrounding him (and pissed off hunters too); and no allies. I felt that Sam was removing himself (the dangerous one) from the situation to keep Dean safe, not abandoning Dean to the mercy of the angels. It was pretty clear that the angels were not going to do Dean any permanent damage because they needed him, yet Sam had a whole contingent of Demons who felt he had ruined their plans after him, as well as some pissed off hunters who were eager to kill him for ending the world. I really felt that Sam felt that Dean would be safer without him, as evidenced by the fact that he went to Dean to tell him what his plans were. It was the first time that Sam didn’t just up and leave with no warning. And Dean agreed with Sam too.
Then you give Dean the benefit of insight that you aren’t willing to give to Sam when you say that Sam only wanted to return to Dean after his talk with Lucifer because he was scared and didn’t want to be alone. To me Sam had already learned what Dean had yet to learn, namely that they were stronger together and “kept each other human.” I feel that Sam learned that lesson in his talk with Lucifer and then turned to Dean to reconcile. Dean then rejects Sam completely. Dean then has to go through the episode of The End to learn the same thing. Perhaps Dean’s perspective has more weight to it because he had an entire episode to work out this problem, and Sam only got a five minute scene. But to me the stories are mirrored and intended to be balanced with each brother arriving at the same conclusion, so I wonder why you don’t see that for Sam the way that you see that for Dean?
Wow. I really hope that you aren’t reading this as antagonistic toward your views, I really, really don’t intend them that way at all. I love a good debate, and you seem to see things a little differently than I do, so it’s great to trade opinions with you! Sorry if this duplicates something someone else has said, I wanted to respond to your post at this particular point. 🙂
[quote]Dean’s perspective has more weight[/quote]The show has shown it that way.In season 1 when Sam tells John that they should hunt together John doesn’t care but when Dean says the same thing John agrees.OK ,the thing which irked me later on was Fans asserting Sam was John’s favorite (because some demon told so).
No worries, E, I feel nothing antagonistic in your posts, and I don’t mind a good debate. I also fully admit that my perspective is certainly not the only one, and that other interpretations are just as valid as mine. I’ll further admit this particular debate has been in the back of my mind all day (an odd thing to catch your mind randomly while trying to corral six-year-olds at work), and I feel like my perspective is changing and refining the more I discuss it. So let me address your points, and we’ll see what occurs.
I could agree that sometimes the “Dean is the one who chases after Sam†trope is portrayed as strictly one-sided in fandom, and your point is well-made that that simply isn’t true. I don’t know if I openly conceded that point earlier, but if not, I do so now unequivocally. I can see how it might be that Sam would be unwilling to try to reconcile with Dean again after 5.4, though I would hope given time he would be willing to try again. I think I bristle at the idea that reconciliation was solely on Dean’s shoulders to the point where I didn’t fully consider how hard it would to try again after Dean told him to pick a side of the planet. So I’d like to straddle the fence and say, yes, Dean would have to meet Sam halfway, but also that I’d hope Sam wouldn’t give up on Dean after one phone call. Is that too wishy-washy a stance?
I think I could further agree that Dean does hurt Sam just the same as Sam hurts Dean. While Dean doesn’t outright reject Sam completely by walking away, his rejections do come in smaller packages that can be just as damaging when they stack up.
I don’t know that in 5.2, when Sam actually walked away, we were seeing any sign that hunters or demons were after him. While the hunter idea definitely came up in 5.3 and 5.16, it wasn’t on Sam or Dean’s radar in 5.2, so I’m afraid I can’t see how that applies, at least not at the point where Sam left. I don’t remember 5.2 enough to say whether any demons addressed him personally in regards to this—in fact we hadn’t seen any conversation of that nature since S3. I don’t remember Sam believing he was in external danger as much as from internal danger at that point. I would further argue that Dean didn’t have angels in his corner in 5.2—he had one rogue angel who was looking for God on flat bread at the time. In 5.2, Sam had no way of knowing when Cas might pop up again, so he couldn’t be counting on him to protect Dean at that point, could he? As for the angels not doing permanent damage, physically I’d agree, but I think S7 and Lucifer showed us that angels have no problem with mental torture and that could very much cause Dean damage. So I’m not sure how any of those factors were in play if Sam was deciding that Dean was safer without him.
Now, if you’re arguing that Sam thought Dean was safer if he didn’t have to worry about him, I could understand that, and maybe he did think so. I just don’t remember him framing it that way when he spoke to Dean. I do want to give Sam credit for leaving in daylight, with Dean fully aware of what was going on, which is certainly a good step for him.
Now, you’re right that I am giving Dean the benefit of insight and not Sam, and that’s something I’ve been thinking about. I’ll agree to that, and I fully admit my bias there. I think Sam and Dean fans tend to have blind spots where they’re protecting their favorite, and this is probably one of mine. At the same time, I didn’t see where Sam had learned from his encounter with Lucifer that Dean and he keep each other human. Maybe this is one of the points where writing failed Sam, but I didn’t see Sam share any such insight with Dean, so my interpretation was that he knew he couldn’t escape the hunt, and his little brother instincts pushed him back to stone number one, Dean. There’s nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but I think my main problem with S5 is always going to be that I didn’t feel like the writers let Sam do enough to really make restitution with Dean. It’s possible that colors my perception of the situation. But I really didn’t see that Sam learned something about his relationship with Dean from his talk with Lucifer. If you don’t mind, can I ask how you came to that conclusion? I’d really like to try to view this from a different perspective.
Again, thank you for trading opinions with me, and I appreciate your well-thought-out and very polite posts.
Can you at least possibly acknowledge that Sam believed Dean wanted to kill him? That was the message Sam heard. Dean never knew about it, so he never contradicted it. Sam stayed with Dean, not really knowing if Dean would kill him in his sleep. When Sam realized he couldn’t control the addiction, he left after telling Dean. As far as Sam knew, telling Dean that he was still craving demon blood could have resulted in Dean deciding to put him down, and he did not at that time know that Lucifer would just bring him back again.
Then he calls Dean after Lucifer and Dean tells him to stay away, only to call him a few days or hours later to tell him they should meet. Sam sees Dean with a knife, but he doesn’t run.
Obviously none of this is even on Dean’s radar, let alone his fault, Dean to this day doesn’t know about the message, but Sam has no idea about that. You seem to think that Sam staying with a brother who he has heard threaten to kill him is not anything to even consider. Sam should just slough off the fact that his brother wants him dead. Frankly staying with a Dean who has threatened to kill him is a form of restitution and a show of trust. The fact that it didn’t happen for Dean, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen for Sam.
I can accept it had to be a possibility in the back of his mind. I think dropping that message was definitely a mistake on show’s part. I’m not sure they ever acknowledged on the air who changed the message, though my understanding is that it was Zachariah through the commentaries on the dvds. However, I think it could also be possible that Sam, once recognizing that Ruby had been manipulating him all along and once Dean told him what the angels had told him, is smart enough to figure out that the phone call was probably another manipulation, especially considering that Dean came back for him in the church even after the phone message in 4.22. So I can acknowledge that that could possibly be a niggling doubt in the back of his mind if you can acknowledge that Sam, in the harsh light of day, might have realized that the message had been another way to push him into fulfilling the angels’/demons’ plans.
I’m not sure if the “You seem to think” in your message is specifically aimed at me, but you’re right in saying I don’t consider it. I saw no sign on screen that Sam was considering it, nor did I see any sign that show had any recollection of that phone message in S5. Which I again state was a blunder on show’s part. They shouldn’t have left so many questions for fans to answer for themselves, because naturally they’re not all going to weigh things the same way.
Or more accurately, I didn’t consider it until just now when you brought it up. But now that you do, I think it’s an interesting point to consider.
There actually is one bit of proof that Sam thought Dean still might want to kill him. When they meet at the bridge at the end of 5.4 and Dean pulls the knife out, Sam visibly flinches and takes a step back. Dean even acknowledges with a look and turning the knife around, so that the handle is facing Sam.
I remember this clearly because it makes me tear up a little every time I see it. They were so broken.
That’s true–I’d forgotten that moment. I think the problem with that scene is that there was no continuity from 4.22 to that moment, so I couldn’t understand why it was included at the time. There was never any sign in 5.1 to the end of 5.4 that Sam was thinking about that phone call, nor that he thought Dean had violent feelings towards him. Sloppy. But it does make sense to make that link. It seems to me, then, that Dean should be given some credit for showing with that gesture that he does at the least trust Sam to have his back. But then we couldn’t have 5.5 (which is probably in my top 3 of most hated episodes, so the less said there the better).
You mean you don’t obsessively watch the episodes back to back and missed that connection? HA!
5.5 is definitely not my favorite and wars with Hammer of the Gods for being the worst that season -HotG still wins though.
I know what Sam said in 5.5 bugs people, but having had a mother who had to “work the steps” it actually seemed healthy to me. NOT THAT DEAN WAS TO BLAME which he never said, but that he was acknowledging patterns that he had to change in order to be healthy and stay on track. And even though I’ve never had to “work the steps” I did have to stop letting my sister make decisions for me and take responsibility for myself when I was younger, so I get.
But I can totally see how it irritates people.
My problem with 5.5 was while it might have said Dean wasn’t to blame, when the message of the episode is, “Dean, you have to change because we’ve never worked as brothers/partners because of the way you treat me.” That’s blame. You don’t have to say the words for “We never worked” to be understood.
So show very clearly laid out what Dean needed to do to be a better brother to Sam, which is fair. Sam needs help staying on track, fine. But let’s be honest, it was never laid out in the same fashion how and what Sam needed to change about himself and his actions towards Dean in order to become a better brother. Maybe it wasn’t considered necessary because we’d seen what happened on screen, but in terms of rebuilding the brothers’ relationship on screen not having Sam speak at the same time about his own faults in the relationship made this feel very one-sided. Instead, Sam got to give his “I’m sorry for everything” blanket apology in 5.1, and he was done. I found that very problematic. Plus, if you say the partnership we’d all enjoyed had never ever worked and Dean needs to change before Sam could do anything to make it up to him, once again the onus is back to Dean. I hate Fallen Idols. It damaged Sam’s redemption arc for me, and if you think too hard about it, the enjoyment you can take from the first seasons because as it turned out, the brotherly bond I enjoyed was apparently always bad and I just didn’t realize it.
Sigh. I knew I should have started.
I don’t think saying one or even a few aspects of the relationships has to change means that they had a terrible relationship. If if hadn’t been for Ruby, my guess is that the change would have happened with Sam getting pissed a few times and Dean adjusting his behavior (because he trusted Sam at that point). Or maybe it would have just happened gradually as they both continued to mature. But it had to change at some point because Dean really was pretty bossy. And Sam had to find a better way of dealing with it.
But Hell happened and Ruby happened. Sam had her whispering in his ear that Dean was controlling and holding Sam back. How he just didn’t understand blah blah blah. So instead just saying hey I have a right to make my own decisions and mistakes and discussing with Dean why he wanted to do what he did. He rebelled like a brat and lied and justified is actions that Dean was a controlling ass. He regressed IMO.
And since Sam was lying and sneaking around behind his back Dean became an even more controlling ass. But Dean obviously had a lot his own stuff to deal with, in addition to all the Sam stuff and anger was his go to position.And then started to lash out at Sam out of fear and anger and made the situation even worse IMO. Again both need to work on communication skills.
Hell and Ruby (demon blood) took what was a minor issue and completely broke their somewhat dysfunctional relationship. Or that’s how I see it. So come to 5.5. IMO Dean did have to change how he treated Sam in order for them to have a healthy relationship, but he was not to blame for Sam’s action. Which is basically what Sam said. The onus was definitely on Sam to change. But he was obviously trying by confronting Dean rather than going behind Dean’s back to do what he wanted or being pissed but following along like a petulant child.
Granted in 1-3, Sam did confront Dean but he definitely had tendencies to pick one of the other options as well.
Now again I did see evidence that he had changed. He stopped running away (except again that aberration in S7-but I guess I’ll write that off the brain damage). He admitted his fears and weaknesses, instead of hiding them until the became unmanageable. Even though he was ashamed to do so, such as in MBV. He stopped lying, even in self-protection. For me that was really most of the ways he needed to change. All they both could use some work on communicating.
I didn’t really consider him that bad of a guy. Just one was filled with loss, pain and guilt and feeling completely powerless and made some incredible stupid decisions in S4. That led to even stupider decisions and finally down that final horrible path. And had to dig his back out after.
He did try to apologize several times in 5.1. But Dean cut him off. I actually saw that as a form of punishment. If he couldn’t apologize then Dean couldn’t grant forgiveness. He got in a apology at the end of 5.2, but Dean wasn’t ready to forgive him (understandably). He didn’t say the words “I’m sorry” after that but he did speak of mistakes, regrets, making the wrong decision. Even questioned why he was in heaven when he died.
Like I said, I didn’t see them as being fully reconciled either and I would love to see some further reconciliation. But I don’t think if can all be about Sam’s mistakes.
Well, I’d agree that changing a few aspects of the relationship doesn’t mean that it’s a terrible relationship. But that’s not what 5.5 said. It said, “It’s never worked.†Again, this is why I hate 5.5—it exaggerated a lot of things just to make a point to a degree where I found it damaging to the show. I realize this is a completely adverse reaction and probably over the top. I’ll admit my bias. I hate this episode to the point of near to true irrationality. I do think that the boys’ relationship would have hit bumps as they continued to mature, and that at some point Dean was going to have to stop being so bossy and Sam was going to have to grow up. So I agre there.
I further agree that Hell and Ruby were both very problematic. Hell put Dean in a terrible place, and he did lash out out of fear and anger. He didn’t handle things well at all. Sam allowed Ruby to convince him that Dean was his biggest obstacle, and indeed allowed her to affect the way Sam saw Dean. He didn’t trust Dean any more than Dean trusted him in S4. Dean didn’t seem to respect Sam as an adult, and Sam didn’t seem to respect Dean as his partner, either. It was just sad to watch. They both justified their own behavior with their brother’s choices, and Sam’s lying acerbated Dean’s lashing out which acerbated Sam’s lying and round and round they went. Dean was controlling, and Sam was dismissive. No one covered themselves in glory in S4.
I think there was a certain amount of give and take in S1-3. Sam would confront Dean on his behavior, and Dean would confront Sam on his issues as well. I think the biggest change in S4 and really every season after is both Sam and Dean are even less willing to talk—they’d both much rather hide and avoid what their issues with each other are to keep on an even keel. That to me doesn’t speak of a stronger relationship.
Again, Sam can put it any way he wants, but if he says I behaved this way because of you and you need to change, that’s blame. Or if not blame, at the very least he’s certainly putting responsibility for the relationship changing on Dean without mentioning what changes he’s bringing to the table. That’s not trying to meet as equals, in my opinion—it’s a little brother move. And that’s fine, because Sam is a little brother and Dean has pulled the big brother card enough times to warrant it, but it wasn’t nearly as innocent as it’s presented. Sam wasn’t putting the onus on himself—he was point blank telling Dean that he needed to change or else he couldn’t. I find it untrue to say that Sam couldn’t avoid going behind Dean’s back or behaving like a petulant child without Dean changing first. It’s a two way street—Dean needs to stop at the same time, not afterwards.
I further agree that Sam changed his behavior after S4, and that is to his credit. I don’t think it’s as clean a sweep as you make it out to be, though—Sam still keeps secrets from Dean a la his hallucinations, still tries to use the little brother card to get his way (Unforgiven—well, I’m going to go so if you want to stay with me to keep me from scratching the wall and possibly killing myself you’ll have to do what I want and go), and he doesn’t always take Dean and his instincts seriously, especially if he’s connecting his thoughts to Dean’s depression/alcoholism (he dismissed a lot of Dean’s thoughts in S7—his suspicions about the Amazons, his suspicions about Bobby the ghost, and his belief that he could save Sam in 7.17). And that’s okay, because even if Dean was trying he still had the tendency to slip back to bossy, he still was short with Sam, and he still had trouble separating Sam from his fears about Sam re: the hallucinations. So yes, they both still need to work on communication, but they both still have issues with each other. I think they always will, because they’re brothers. It’s never going to be all lollipops and candy canes, so to speak. They also both did great things for each other last season–Sam trying to get Dean to think about himself, Dean saving Sam’s life, etc. There’s always going to be the bad you take with the good.
But really, cutting someone off from apologizing is now punishment? Dean was thinking in his head, “I know what’ll show him, not letting him apologize! That’ll hurt him!†Maybe you meant unconsciously, though, so I’ll leave that alone. Again, the onus is on Dean then—Sam can’t do anything without his permission? Since when? I’m sorry, but we’ve seen Sam ignore Dean’s cut-offs from emotional conversations (2.4 and 3.7 being prime examples) and say what he thought needed to be said. So yes, Dean didn’t make it easy on Sam, but I think Sam has more will power when it comes to things that really important to him than he’s being credited for. Dean cuts him off twice and that’s it? Sam can’t do anything more than that? That just doesn’t match up with the strong-willed Sam I feel like I’ve been watching for 7 years.
I don’t know where I said or even implied that Sam was a bad guy, so I’m not sure where that comes from. I’ve agreed all along that he was filled with very complicated emotions in S4 that led him to bad but understandable choices. I’ve simply disagreed that show did a good job writing him an effective redemption arc in S5. I also never said that the reconciliation was all on Sam—I think I’ve said several times that it isn’t. I did say that I feel that Dean got more than his fair share laid at his feet in S5 while Sam didn’t directly answer for his wrongs versus Dean in the same way, at least not nearly enough to suit me. Whether Sam is a good guy or not isn’t the point of discussion, because I’ve never denied that, and I didn’t deny that Dean had done wrong in their relationship either.
I think the real disconnect here is that I don’t see that Sam’s feelings of sorrow about the apocalypse and Dean are the same thing. To me, these were two very different issues, mostly because I never blamed Sam for the apocalypse. He didn’t break all the seals, he didn’t know that Lilith would be the final seal, and if Lilith had been standing in front of him Dean would have killed her too if he could. So to me, that was never the important thing Sam needed to pay restitution to. I was much more invested in Dean and Sam’s relationship, so Sam’s part (not all, but part) in damaging that was the most important thing for show to deal with. But it was barely directly addressed, and that to me is the failure. I understand that you see Sam’s guilt/sorrow/etc over both of these issues as intertwined, and that might be why it’s more satisfactory for you. And there’s nothing wrong with that—mileage definitely varies.
[quote]. It’s a two way street—Dean needs to stop at the same time, not afterwards.[/quote]
By which I meant, Dean needs to treating Sam as a child, and Sam needs to stop acting like a child at the same time, not afterwards. That’s the two way street metaphor I mangled. I can never get out of these long responses clean. Drat.
emmau & Kelly-You two, as usual, have the best in- depth discussion. One of you leans a little one way while the other leans the other way. You both make excellent points, meanwhile still showing affection and respect for the other character. You manage to cover a lot of bases between you and it almost always is fair play. At this point in the year, as Alice has said, fans can get a little cranky. She is not wrong. Tip of the hat to you.
If you’re wondering how who’s right or wrong
And other subjective facts,
Just repeat to yourself “It’s just a show,
I should really just relax
For Mystery Science Theater 3000–I mean, Supernatural.
/shows self out after terrible joke/
I love Mystery Science Theater 3000! I was so excited when they got in Netflix.
I agree with a lot of your points. While I do think the “It never worked” was simply hyperbole used in an argument, I probably did overstated Sam’s change. I should have said he got A LOT better(as did Dean), rather than he didn’t do those things. Your right they both still makes a lot of the same mistakes. Just generally not as badly. Dean sometimes is still a little bossy. Sam kept the hallucinations from Dean for a few days instead of weeks. (although Death ratted him out -sooo)But later in the season when he got worse, he told Dean immediately.
And I don’t think I said Dean had to change for Sam to or I didn’t mean to. I think Sam had to change what he was doing regardless of Dean’s behavior. But in order for them to work towards a healthy relationship again and in order to work together now, Dean did need to change. I still don’t see that as blame in any way.
But I definitely don’t think that their relationship is better in S4 or 5. I would say it was at its low point but I do think that Sam confronting Dean with issues is a healthy step. But again I totally understand while people have a problem with that conversation, it could have been done better. But I don’t view it the same way.
Now I don’t have a problem with Sam saying he was working the case with or without Dean. He is an adult. He felt responsible. He had every right to say, this is what I’m doing. I don’t see this as “pulling a little brother card”. Yes, I’m sure he knew Dean would follow, just as he follows Dean. But he is not obligated to get Dean’s permission to go on cases.
Sam also didn’t go against Dean with the Amazons. He mocked for a moment or two. But when Dean showed he was serious -Sam asked if he wanted them to come there. With Bobby, I got the impression he couldn’t let himself believe. He was pretty shaky and seeing a lot of crap that wasn’t there, to me he even sounded a little desperate when saying, “because we want it to be!”. So I don’t think that had anything to do with Dean. And he hadn’t slept in days in 7.17 and it did look hopeless. I did not see that as a lack of faith in Dean but just accepting he was going to die.
I did mean unconsciously when speaking of the apology. And he did keep trying to apologize right up until he did in 5.2 before they separated. And after they got back together the express regret and his mistakes. This might sound confrontational but it truly not meant to be. What is it that you want Sam to do? He apologized and made his best effort to change. He was punished for what he did and then some. How could he make it up to Dean? I wasn’t saying you thought Sam was bad, but what does he need to do to be redeem himself in his relationship with Dean? I know you say towards Dean specifically, but I was just wondering how you were hoping it would play out.
Other than work with Sam and try to forgive him. I don’t see that Dean did anything to fix their relationship. Again not saying he had to, but I’m not sure how the show put the weight of change on him.
Tone is hard with the written word, so I just want to make it clear that wasn’t a sarcastic question but an honest inquiry.
I don’t think the concept of 5.5 was bad necessarily—Dean did have to change along with Sam in order to rebuild their relationship. It more than likely wasn’t something that was going to occur to Dean on his own—most of us have blind spots to our faults at one time or another, and I can see where this was one of Dean’s. It’s just that so much hyperbole and exaggeration came into the episode to make the point it not only obscured the point to a lot of fans, it ended up sending a message to some that I don’t think show ever intended to send. So that’s the problem. I’ll further agree that both boys have tried hard to improve on some of their faults, but they still backslide at times. That’s normal, because these faults are part of their characters and they’re not going to be able to eliminate them completely.
I didn’t make myself clear here, for that I apologize. I didn’t mean that you indicated that Dean had to change for Sam to be able to change. I think the episode itself did that. I agree that Sam had to change regardless of what Dean did, but the wording in their confrontation very much left me with the impression that Sam was saying he couldn’t grow up and change without Dean changing first. I agree that Dean did have to change to make the relationship work, but again, “I went to Ruby because of the way you act and you’ve got to stop that before I can grow up†is pretty much putting blame on Dean. We don’t have to agree, but that’s what I see.
I think Sam stating his needs is a healthy step. I’ll agree there. Maybe the problem is that the writers never let Dean have that same opportunity, so his needs from Sam were pretty much left unsaid. It’s the imbalance that really bothers me.
Yes, Sam has the right to work whatever case he wants. No, he doesn’t have to ask permission. But that wasn’t exactly the give-and-take between equal partners Sam had been espousing , was it? The way he laid it on Dean, “Well, I’m just doing what you would do, and if you want to keep me sane you’ll just have to come with me†is pretty much a little brother card in my view. Sam knew what he was doing. He knew Dean would follow him out of fear and concern. He was shutting down debate, just as Dean and his orders would. And that’s fine because little brothers should have their weapons, too. But in that case at least, there was definitely a card played, and it was played more than once. This which can also be a matter of perspective upon which we disagree.
Again, mileage will vary because I felt that the Amazon case had a lot of Sam mocking and dismissing what Dean was saying, both when he was voicing his suspicions and in their final conversations. Again, that’s a little brother moment, and that’s fine. But it was there. I can understand that it was hard for Sam to let himself believe in terms of Bobby, just as it was hard for Dean to deal with the idea of Sam using his powers. In both cases, they shut the conversation down rather than opening their mind to discuss the possibilities, didn’t they? So maybe Sam couldn’t deal with it and it wasn’t about Dean, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t dismiss what Dean was saying. I’ll agree that he wasn’t in the best mental or emotional frame of mind in 7.17 and I’m not saying I hold it against him, but he didn’t believe Dean could do anything. I don’t bring these points up to slander Sam or try to paint him as a bad person—Dean has a tendency to give orders without listening to Sam because he genuinely wants to look out for Sam, and Sam sometime dismisses what Dean says for genuine, non-malicious reasons. It’s just something they do.
I wanted Sam to acknowledge, point blank, his mistakes with Dean in S4. I did a quick google search earlier (take that for what it is), and I believe some of the steps involve taking a fearless moral inventory, admitting to a person in entirety the wrongs done to them, and make active restitution. So I wanted Sam to admit how he allowed Ruby to negatively influence him against Dean to the point that he didn’t trust Dean’s words or instincts. I wanted him to acknowledge that he did end up looking down on Dean a bit for being weak, and he was wrong to do so. I wanted him to apologize specifically for what happened in that hotel room, just as Dean did in 4.22 in the changed phone call (just because Sam didn’t hear it doesn’t mean Dean didn’t do it). So if Sam pointed out how his attitude and choices made him go to Ruby and at least helped cause the decay of their relationship, I wanted Sam to have to cop to the fact that his attitude and choices pushed Dean towards the angels and also reinforced Dean’s self-loathing about his weakness in hell by implying that he was weak on earth as well. I don’t need episode upon episode of sad, oblique looks—I wanted one episode where Sam stated point blank what he did wrong in regards to his relationship with Dean and how he was going to do his best not to dismiss Dean’s opinion as merely trying to control him or being weak. That’s what I wanted.
I think Dean stated point blank that he was sorry for the way he’d treated Sam (both in 4.22 and in 5.5) and that he was wrong to do so. He listened when Sam and Bobby pointblank told him what he’d done wrong and how he was being hard on Sam and not treating him well, and voiced how he was going to change his behavior specifically regarding Dean. So I do feel like Dean did do more than just work with Sam and try to forgive him. Indeed, his entire arc of S5 turned about to be about how he needed and did change how he treated Sam in order to “love him right.†So I do think that the weight of change was on Dean in a way that it wasn’t on Sam in regards to their bond.
I appreciate your trying to clarify tone, because that is very hard to ascertain sometimes on-line. I further want to say that I mean no sarcasm or anger in my responses. I’ve tried to answer as thoughtfully as I can, and I hope that I’ve succeeded.
If I can once again be the annoying person who posts bits of transcript, where are you getting “The way he laid it on Dean, “Well, I’m just doing what you would do, and if you want to keep me sane you’ll just have to come with me†out of Unforgiven? I don’t see Sam putting the onus of keeping him sane on Dean in either of their two exchanges:
SAM
Okay, look—this creature is still walking around ’cause of me, right? I mean, I let it go. Dad also said, “you finish what you start.” Okay, I get it.
DEAN
Do you?
SAM
Yes. You’re afraid I’ll stroll down memory lane and I’ll kick this wall in my head so hard, Hell comes flooding through, right? And then all of a sudden, I’m some drooling mess on the floor.
DEAN
It’s not a joke.
SAM
Okay. I know. But listen—what’s happening here right now—it’s because I messed up somehow, in some big way. So every person who gets taken, every person who dies—that’s on me. I have to stop it. And you’d do the same thing.
DEAN
All right. I’ll follow up with the brunettes. You see what you get from the cops.
********
DEAN We’re leaving.
SAM No, we can’t.
DEAN We are not the only hunters on the planet, okay? We can call Bobby. He and Rufus could come and wrap up.
SAM How? Like you said, it could be anybody, we got jack for leads.
DEAN We know that it hates you.
SAM I know who did this. I just — I can’t remember.
DEAN I don’t think you get the risk here, Sam.
SAM Yes, I do.
DEAN Really? You get that every time you scratch that wall, that you are playing Russian roulette?
SAM Dean, I get you’re worried, okay? And I know what you think is gonna happen. But you know what? It will or it won’t.
DEAN Sam —
SAM –look, I’m starting to think that — that I might have done some bad stuff here, Dean. And so I don’t care if it’s dangerous. I have to set things right, ’cause I got a frigging soul now, and — and it won’t let me just walk away. I’m staying here. And I need you to back me up.
DEAN All right. Why not? Well, let’s “memento” this thing, shall we?
If anything, Sam seemed fatalistic: either the wall would fall or it wouldn’t. He certainly didn’t suggest that Dean had to stay to keep him sane, just that he felt he had to do it and needed Dean to support that decision.
In “Unforgiven,” Sam was appalled and frightened by what Soulless did. He wasn’t using any “little brother” card on Dean. He was simply telling Dean he felt compelled to fix what he (Soulless) had messed up. And he asked Dean to help him. He never demanded that Dean stay w/him or anything.
If anything, Sam appealed to Dean’s own sense of right and wrong. Dean wanted to complete the Shtriga hunt b/c he felt he messed up when he was like 9-years old. The same thing that was driving Dean in that episode was driving Sam in “Unforgiven.”
I think the difference is that Dean wasn’t in serious danger of losing his soul by investigating the Striga incident. Sam definitely was putting his sanity, if not his soul, in jeopardy by looking into this. I can appreciate that it was a noble gesture, even admirable. I am in no way implying his sense of honor and his fear weren’t genuine.
I can also see it from Dean’s side, too–he just spent months trying to retrieve Sam’s soul while dealing with the dangerous stranger in his brother’s body. He took considerable risks to get Sam’s soul and the wall in place. For Sam to be willing to throw it away that easily would be hard to deal with, and he had the right to object.
So, it was going to come down to a battle of wills, and Sam won. He did so by appealing to Dean’s sense of right and wrong, evoking their father, and telling Dean he needed him, which were all triggers that were sure to catch Dean’s attention and make him more willing to give in. It worked, and I fully believe Dean expected it to. He didn’t have to demand that Dean stay. We can agree to disagree, however.
So out of curiosity, do you disagree that Sam has a “little brother” card, just as Dean has a big brother card all together, or do you just disagree he used it in this instance?
Fully believe that Sam expected it to.
Someday I will stop getting so tied up in what I’m posting I won’t mix up Dean and Sam’s names, completley obscuring my own points.
Honestly, it could be b/c it’s early in the AM where I live, but I can’t say I recall Sam using a “little brother” card as much as Dean has used the “big brother” card. In my mind, I can picture scenes of Dean saying, “It’s because I’m older” or “I’m older so this is what we’re doing” or something to that effect.
I can’t really picture too many instances of Sam playing up his being younger to manipulate Dean. Fresh Blood comes to mind, but that’s about it.
But back to “Unforgiven” – in general, I think the Winchesters have very little regard for their own safety and welfare just by the nature of what they do. In this case, I think Sam was more motivated to solve the case than he was w/his own personal safety. He behaved the same way when he was resurrected. Dean wanted Sam to rest and take it easy, but Sam wanted to get right back to the hunt. Again, he did the same thing when he awakened from getting his soul back.
I know in this case Sam could have caused great damage to himself, but I think you’re disregarding how horrified Sam was at learning what SS did. Sam has spent most of his life helping others. To think that SS was running around damaging people’s lives had to wreck Sam and fill him w/tremendous guilt. That’s why he was bound and determined to right what “he” wronged.
So, in these speeches where you see Sam as manipulating Dean, I just see him speaking from the heart. He’s just trying to explain to Dean why he feels compelled to finish the hunt. Even if they left, I bet Sam would have still been consumed w/figuring out the case and could have cracked the wall. Sam’s a pretty stubborn guy.
Well, the transcripts certainly make it scarier. The wall might have fallen, or it might not have, but with Sam actively scratching at it one possibility was a lot more likely than the other. This isn’t living on the Gulf Coast and knowing a hurricane might hit–it’s paddling out in a hurricane on a surfboard and saying, “Whatever happens is going to happen.” Well, yeah, but you’re definitely setting yourself up for the worst result. I’ll agree that you’re right–Sam didn’t ask Dean to keep him sane. He asked him to drive him to the ocean and watch him paddle out in the middle of a hurricane and drown. Somehow that doesn’t seem much better.
Think about it this way: when Dean did what he had to do to save Sam without regards to himself, selling his soul and leaving Sam behind, he was called selfish by Sam and he agreed. So how do you think Sam views risking his soul and leaving Dean bhind on the behalf of strangers?
But back on topic. By first evoking John and Dean as his hunting models and then telling Dean he needed him in order to do something, Sam was pretty clearly hitting some key points for Dean that were meant to get him to capitulate to Sam’s wishes. Sam is a very smart man, so I think that was entirely intentional. This doesn’t mean that Sam is doing something nefarious–he was doing what he thought he had to do to help people and win the argument, and the end result would be that he was doing what was right. But by playing those cards, he shut down Dean’s argument completely and ensured that he would go along with what Sam wanted. Sam could have done it alone, but he didn’t want to, so he played the cards he had to get Dean on-board. That’s what I mean when I say that Sam was playing the little brother card. Dean does the same when he plays the big brother card. It’s what they do.
Again, look at the transcript. The reference to John isn’t something Sam came up with to push Dean’s buttons, it was a counter quote to Dean, who was the one who introduced the John aphorisms into the conversation:
DEAN
Are you serious? Sam, there is a reason that hunters don’t hit the same town over again—’cause we have a habit of leaving messes behind.
SAM
Right. I agree.
DEAN
One of dad’s rules — you never use the same crapper twice.
SAM
Everyone uses the same crapper twice.
DEAN
Not us. You know what I mean.
SAM
Okay, look—this creature is still walking around ’cause of me, right? I mean, I let it go. Dad also said, “you finish what you start.” Okay, I get it.
Again, you’re presenting Sam as manipulative of Dean in a way that really isn’t backed up by the text — Dean appeals to John’s authority first, Sam simply counters with another bit of John wisdom. Dean and Sam are both trying to get each other to capitulate to their wishes, by arguing their points. I’m really not seeing Sam using some magic little brother card to get Dean to capitulate to his wishes here.
I’m not sure where the reference to Dean’s deal is coming from. Sam was risking his life and his sanity, but he wasn’t selling his soul to hell against what he knew were the wishes and good of the supposed beneficiary, and against the natural order. That they risk themselves to save others is a constant part of their lives, and they do so knowing it will devastate the other if they die.
I think Sam would have stayed on the hunt in “Unforgiven” even if Dean had left. It was personal for Sam. He could see that SS had messed up big time in that town, and he wanted to rectify the situation. He felt compelled to do so.
I think that is admirable of Sam. I understand that you may find it selfish, but, to me, Sam behaved as I thought he would or how John or Dean would. They are all stand up guys who try to do right, IMO. There’s no way Sam was going to just leave the town and leave others to fix his mess. That’s not the kind of guy he is, IMO.
I didn’t view Sam as manipulating Dean. I thought he spoke from the heart in both speeches. He was putting the welfare of the townspeople and everyone else above his own personal safety – something the Winchesters do often. It wasn’t his intent to make Dean worry, but he felt solving the case was more important than his sanity.
As I said, I thought it was admirable of Sam, but miles vary as they say. I guess it didn’t work for you.
I didn’t say it wasn’t admirable of Sam. On the contrary, I said it was an honorable gesture, even admirable. I also stated that I believed Sam’s sense of honor, horror, and fear were all real. So I’m not sure where that’s coming from.
I also agree that Sam behaved as John and Dean might–behavior Sam rarely seemed to approve of when he was the one standing on the sidelines having to watch a family member drown, so to speak. But that’s fairly normal for all of the Winchesters–do as I say, not as I do. They are all self-sacrificing, but are disapproving of other Winchesters doing the same. There was a certain symmetry there, wasn’t there?
Maybe that should have been the point I made–both Sam and Dean are big old hypocrites. Sam didn’t approve of Dean giving up his soul to save someone else, and Dean didn’t approve of Sam risking his soul to save someone else. They all believe it’s right when they do it, but not when their brother/father does it. Of course, no matter which side they’re coming down on, they have a point. Yes, it is hard to watch your brother risk his life/soul and potentially leave you behind without a thought, but at the same time you’re doing the same because you’re both stand-up men who believe in saving others over everything. Ah, boys.
So, etheldred, you’re willing to say that both Sam and Dean were both trying to get each other to capitulate by playing the cards they had–Dean played Dad’s wisdom and his worry for what might happen to Sam, and Sam played Dad and Dean’s hunter examples. Sam in the end got Dean to capitulate because his cards pinged Dean’s sense of honor, duty, and later his sense of brotherhood during the appeal that he needed Dean’s support. They each tried to appeal to each other with their most persuasive arguments, and ultimately Sam emerged victorious? Does that mean we’re in agreement?
I’m not sure, lala2, how we’re in disagreement. We seem to be in agreement over the events, but you seem to think I think Sam had some dark, terrible motive. I don’t. I think his motives were nothing but pure. He did what he had to do in order to make things right in his mind, and he got Dean to agree against his better judgment. Dean has done the same using his big brother cards and appealing to Sam’s nature using things in their shared history, their code of ethics, and familial love, all for good reasons. Why is it somehow worse to say that Sam does the same thing? I don’t think it is.
I’m taking that to be a no on the “little brother” card question, then.
I guess our disagreement lies in whether Sam was being manipulative or not in “Unforgiven.” I honestly don’t think he was. He was speaking from the heart abbut his desire, his compulsion to make things right.
To me, neither brother was right or wrong. I didn’t see either one as manipulative or anything.
As I said, to etheldred, I’m not sure why it has to be one or the other. Sam was speaking from his heart about his desire and compulsion to make things right. He also said things that very definitely pushed Dean’s buttons as a hunter, a brother, a Winchester, and a stand-up guy himself. Dean’s done the exact same things to convince Sam to his way of thinking. They both do this.
But if you don’t see it that way, that’s fine.
Again, I just get the feeling that you think Sam was wrong or bad in some way – which is perfectly fine. If that’s how you feel, that’s cool. I just disagree.
Like Etheldred says below, I didn’t view either brother as “playing” or manipulating the other. They just argued a bit about what to do. It wasn’t a big deal to me. They both said what they felt; I don’t see it as “pushing buttons” or “playing cards.”
Use of that language – to me – usually means the party pushing the buttons or playing the cards is wrong or at fault.
No one was wrong to me in that episode. I guess you think Sam was wrong, which is okay. I just disagree w/you.
I don’t think I can reiterate any other way that I don’t think Sam is bad for doing it, since I’ve outright said it. I don’t think Dean is bad when he slides back into big brother mode and snaps out his orders. I simply think it’s part of their dynamics as brothers.
But clearly the terminology doesn’t work for everyone,nor to the idea that sometimes Sam does slide into little brother mode to persuade Dean to do things his way, so we can agree to disagree.
I do understand what you’re saying, Emmau. I can only say that I can’t help but interpret your comments as critical of Sam and how he behaved in the episode. I hear that you’re saying you didn’t think he was wrong or bad in the episode, but when you speak of Sam “playing his little brother” card to get Dean to agree to do what Sam wanted and that not being fair, I see that as saying Sam was wrong. That’s how the comments read to me.
As I was saying below, I think playing one’s card or being manipulative requires some thought and planning. In my opinion, in that episode, Sam was far too emotional about the situation in the town to be manipulative. That’s what I mean when I say he spoke from the heart. When he tells Dean that he can’t just leave the mess for someone else to clean up and he minimizes his Wall, I saw Sam as just telling Dean how he felt. If Dean had left, I think Sam would have stayed in the town to figure out the mystery. He was extremely worried and concerned about the things SS had done.
Do I think the boys have manipulated each other over the years? Sure. All people do that. I don’t think any manipulation was happening in “Unforgiven” though.
I guess I don’t see why you’re presenting it in terms of “playing cards” at all. Both of them said what they felt. It wasn’t a little brother card/big brother card thing at all — I don’t think either of them said anything they wouldn’t if the roles had been reversed. The argument was only manipulation in the sense that any argument is manipulation. You said “that wasn’t exactly the give-and-take between equal partners Sam had been espousing , was it?” but to me it looks pretty equal, and I don’t see it as an example of persistent bad patterns in their relationship.
So it’s about the terminology? Or maybe not. I think both Sam and Dean will say what they have to in order to make their point, and in order to get what they want to happen. I do think Sam said specific things that were designed to get Dean to give in. I think Dean’s done the same thing. It doesn’t mean that they don’t believe what they’re saying whole-heartedly, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t aware of the effect of their words. I’m not sure why it has to be one or the other. But if we have different perspectives, then we do.
Maybe I should ask, how would you want them to behave differently? Since you initially cited this as an example of ways in which they, and specifically Sam, had not sufficiently altered their patterns of behavior to repair their relationship after s4. How does this dynamic reflect a recourse to a “little brother” card and not the dynamic of equal partners?
I don’t know that they can behave differently. No matter how much Dean and Sam strive to be equal partners, they’re going to backslide sometimes, because the family archetypes are so ingrained. Sometimes Dean is going to slip into big brother mode and pull his “Because I said so” routine. Sometimes Sam is going to slip into little brother mode and get Dean to give him the last bowl of cereal, so to speak. It doesn’t bother me that they’re going to do this, but I do acknowledge that each of them are going to do it from time to time and it creates a power imbalance. That’s just the way it is.
OK. I just think that representing Sam arguing for something he felt strongly was right, using the same terms Dean was using, as getting Dean to give him the last bowl of cereal is a wild misrepresentation of what was going on. I honestly think the “little brother mode” is entirely in your imagination here. You’ve acknowledged that nothing is said in the debate that wouldn’t be said if the roles were reversed, so it’s really hard to see where the power imbalance or the family archetype is.
Fair enough.
Sorry to but in, but I have to ask- speaking of using words by design, do you really mean to say “he got Dean to agree against his better judgment?” Because Sam said nothing that Dean wouldn’t say or do in his exact situation, in fact does do so as a matter of routine. I can’t support the idea that “each tries to appeal to each other with their most persuasive arguments”- because Dean had no legitimate argument. Dean would never have said those things to Bobby, or some other hunter whose talents he respected. His little brother, who in Dean’s mind to this day, still needs to be schooled- that’s a different story.
Really? You don’t think if Bobby wanted to take on something that had the very real possibility of killing him or destroying his sanity, that Dean wouldn’t try to talk him out of it? You don’t think that Dean had a very legitimate reason not to want Sam to risk himself that way, especially over actions he’d already told Sam he didn’t believe were his fault? It’s all about “schooling Sam”?
Yeah, we’re in different time zones on this issue, and that’s fine. I’ll agree to disagree.
Exactly right, Lala. If Dean had been in the exact same situation Sam was in- there wouldn’t have even been a discussion. Dean would have just done it, and Sam would had better hurry up if he wanted to be included.
Dean risks his life for total strangers on a routine daily basis- oh but then Dean is a hero. Sam is the oh-so-fallible sidekick.
I can’t be bothered to beat the dead horses of DarkSide of the Moon or Fallen Idols- but making Sam out to be the bad guy again in Unforgiven just really burns me. First because it’s one of only two Sam-centric eps of that whole season, yet the fandom mostly panned it for involving Sam too much. I remain convinced that Robert Singer suggested “soulless Sam” because he wanted to prove that Sam’s character was unnecessary to the continuation of the show, but fortunately Jensen objected. Despite all that, the reaction of most of the fandom to the ep was either that Sam is once again a manipulator of Dean’s feelings, or more often “oh so boring! Sam’s problems again? who cares?” (shakes head) I don’t get it.
But is it any wonder that the writers are less and less interested in writing for Sam?
I agree that if Dean was in the exact same situation, he would do the same thing. And Sam would be just as hesitant–he would try to talk Dean out of it because he wouldn’t want Dean to risk himself that way. As I said, delightful hypocrites each and every one of those Winchesters.
I’m sorry that you feel I’ve made Sam out to “be a bad guy again.” I didn’t think I had, but of course that doesn’t invalidate your perspective. I don’t think fans all panned it for being about Sam, at least nowhere I saw. I also don’t think that Rob Singer invented and wanted to use roboSam becuase he was trying to throw Sam off the show–Jared himself loved the role and talked about exploring a different side of Sam.
As for the writers being less interested to write for Sam, I think Dean fans made that argument for two years. I think there’s always going to be a side of fandom that thinks the PTB is out to get their favorite, so to speak, and sometimes the PTB gives seemingly convincing evidence. All you can do is see if you can live with it, I guess.
[quote]I can’t be bothered to beat the dead horses of DarkSide of the Moon or Fallen Idols- but making Sam out to be the bad guy again in Unforgiven just really burns me. First because it’s one of only two Sam-centric eps of that whole season. . . .[/quote]
You said it, Rick!
That is exactly why I’ve been defending Sam and the episode, itself. It was a RARE look into Sam and what he was thinking about his situation. It showed the audience that Sam carried undeserved guilt and a desire to help people just like John and Dean.
Sam is a “Winchester” and did what all Winchesters do! What’s the problem?
I also remember the complaints about “Unforgiven.” It was called boring b/c it focused on Sam, and Sam was accused of being selfish for wanting to fix what SS did. But those same people also complained that Sam wouldn’t care about what SS did either. The Sam haters will continue to hate, and nothing will ever change their opinions.
But as far as this episode goes, I didn’t see Sam as manipulating Dean. IMO, to “play the little brother card” implies some thought and consideration. I don’t think Sam was actively thinking of ways to get Dean to agree to stay. He was speaking from the heart. He was too emotional about the situation, IMO, to be manipulative. Neither was trying to manipulate the other. Sam telling Dean that he just couldn’t let it go was simply Sam stating his feelings. That’s how Sam was raised.
I love “Unforgiven.” It’s one of my favorite Season 6 episodes.
[quote][quote]I can’t be bothered to beat the dead horses of DarkSide of the Moon or Fallen Idols- but making Sam out to be the bad guy again in Unforgiven just really burns me. First because it’s one of only two Sam-centric eps of that whole season. . . .[/quote]
You said it, Rick!
That is exactly why I’ve been defending Sam and the episode, itself. It was a RARE look into Sam and what he was thinking about his situation. It showed the audience that Sam carried undeserved guilt and a desire to help people just like John and Dean.
Sam is a “Winchester” and did what all Winchesters do! What’s the problem?
I also remember the complaints about “Unforgiven.” It was called boring b/c it focused on Sam, and Sam was accused of being selfish for wanting to fix what SS did. But those same people also complained that Sam wouldn’t care about what SS did either. The Sam haters will continue to hate, and nothing will ever change their opinions.
But as far as this episode goes, I didn’t see Sam as manipulating Dean. IMO, to “play the little brother card” implies some thought and consideration. I don’t think Sam was actively thinking of ways to get Dean to agree to stay. He was speaking from the heart. He was too emotional about the situation, IMO, to be manipulative. Neither was trying to manipulate the other. Sam telling Dean that he just couldn’t let it go was simply Sam stating his feelings. That’s how Sam was raised.
I love “Unforgiven.” It’s one of my favorite Season 6 episodes.[/quote]
I am baffled as to how anybody could find fault in Sam in this episode.Sam is most defintely a Winchester who didnt live in a vacuum he was raised by both John and Dean he would of witnessed how they acted and reacted and been influenced by that.
Learning what your soulless self did would of knocked him sideways in wanting to at least try to make some repair to the damage he had done was only natural .Not trying would of lived worse with Sam than at least trying to do something.
Truth! Unforgiven and Frontierland (and in Frotierland, Sam is little more than fetch-it boy) are the only two really good eps from S6. People always allege Sam and Dean both have to be present for SPN to be SPN, yet the first half of S6 went without the real Sam. Are we not to consider those truly SPN eps? Truthfully I find them painful to watch again.
Just imagine if Dean had gone half a season without his soul- the fans would have burned Singer & Gamble in effigy on the lawn of the CW building!
Seriously! I know some of the episodes which I loved were controversial for one reason or another. But Clap If You Believe? French Mistake? 2 of the funniest episodes of all time. I think the French Mistake should have been nominated for an Emmy-so well done. But there were several that were good and weren’t controversial, such as Then There Were None and Weekend at Bobby’s.
I’m love both brothers (although lately most my post are about Sam) and like the concept of SS even if the execution wasn’t always the best. I just thought it went on 2 or 3 episodes to long. But to write off basically the whole season? I can’t see that. There were some incredible episodes in there.
[quote]
Think about it this way: when Dean did what he had to do to save Sam without regards to himself, selling his soul and leaving Sam behind, he was called selfish by Sam and he agreed. So how do you think Sam views risking his soul and leaving Dean bhind on the behalf of strangers?
[/quote]
Now it’s my turn to butt in. This is comparing two very different things. Dean spent most of season 2 resenting John for the burden and the guilt he placed on Dean by not only sacrificing his life, but going to hell, to save Dean’s life. Dean was never grateful to John for this. He was angry. Then he went and did the same thing to Sam. Here’s the transcript from The Magnificent Seven:
SAM: How could you make that deal, Dean?
DEAN: ‘Cause I couldn’t live with you dead. Couldn’t do it.
SAM: So, what, now I live and you die?
DEAN: That’s the general idea, yeah.
SAM: Yeah,well, you’re a hypocrite, Dean. How did you feel when dad sold his soul for you? ‘Cause I was there. I remember. You were twisted and broken. And now you go and do the same thing. To me. What you did was selfish.
DEAN: Yeah,you’re right. It was selfish. But I’m okay with that.
SAM: I’m not.
DEAN: Tough. After everything I’ve done for this family, I think i’m entitled. Truth is, I’m tired, Sam. I don’t know, it’s like there’s a light at the end of the tunnel.
SAM: It’s hellfire, Dean.
In the case of Unforgiven, I think Sam had accepted his end when jumped into Lucifer’s cage. He never expected to get back out, and the fact that he did was a gift. He knew it was only a matter of time before the wall fell and the memories came back. He wasn’t intentionally trying to break the wall, but there were things about what he had done while soulless that he needed to know and make right. He wasn’t sacrificing his life for Dean and putting the guilt of that on Dean. He was doing what he needed to do make sure his own soul was clean.
Exactly! For Sam’s own peace of mind, he had to investigate that case. He couldn’t just let it go.
I hesitate to jump back into the fray, and I think I’ve said everything about Sam and Dean in 6.13 that I’m going to say. But I’ll answer this, since it seems to be directly addressed to me.
What I see here is Dean, disregardng the possible effects to himself or Sam in order to save a life and right a perceived wrong. I think that’s exactly the same thing that Sam did–he disregarded the possible effects to himself or Dean in order to potentially save lives and right a wong. Dean believed he was righting a wrong, because he wasn’t supposed to be alive and he clearly thought Sam deserved to be, even though Sam would have vigorously argued against him taking that action. Sam believed he was righting a wrong done by his soulless self, even though Dean had argued that Sam wasn’t responsible for anything done then.
I agree that the wall was always a shaky proposition, but Death did not present it as a fait accompli that the wall was going to fall no matter what. He said it was possible, and he also said that Sam shouldn’t scratch because that would be very damaging to him. You’re right that Sam wasn’t sacrificing his life for Dean–he was sacrificing his life to right wrongs and potentially forcing Dean to watch him die. The only difference between Sam and Dean’s actions were that hell turned out to be a much more sure bet. But you’re right–Sam determined his actions were important to make sure his soul was clean, regardless of anything else. Dean determined his actions were necessary to make sure Sam was alive, regardless of anything else.
If it helps, I always thought it was a bit unfair that Dean’s actions got labeled solely as selfish in S3. I don’t think Sam was being selfish, but I do think that the similarities there are enough to make me wonder if show noticed. But long story short, I’ll agree to disagree that their actions weren’t quite similar, because I think they were. Obviously, mileage varies.
Oh I wasn’t implying that you were being sarcastic. But I kept trying different ways to ask that, but all could have been taken wrongly given the right tone. So I just decided to preemptively state the tone.
I can see your POV . I don’t necessarily agree but I can see how their different interactions could be taken that way. I agree that normally they should agree on which cases to take. And compromise should be made on both sides. But Sam felt like he had a personal responsibility towards that case. But your right they both use their knowledge of each other to convince the other to do what they want.
On the apologizing, while I personally think those issues were address in S5, if somewhat obliquely. I sure
that probably would have helped with Sam’s redemption in some people’s eyes in S5 (I know your not the only one who had a problem with it), but I have to admit I don’t see them dredging that stuff now, since it was very specific to S4. And not something Sam had a history of doing.
But I would love to see are scenes like they had in 1-3 where they outright told each other specific things they admired about each other. And address both the boys issues with each other in that way. Because I think Sam has lingering issues from that time period too.
I know it’s not the apology you want but hopefully it would help mend the relationship.
Hey, you’re talking to someone who has long been an advocate for the creation of mood fonts. Online it can really be hard to figure out what tone someone is taking at times, and how you interpret can really make or break a conversation, so to speak. I don’t blame you a bit for wanting to ensure things are taken in the right spirit, and I appreciate it.
That’s all I’m saying. Sam and Dean both use their knowledge of each other and the situation in order to try to convince the other to do what they want sometimes. It doesn’t have to be negative, but I think they do know exactly what they’re doing when they do it. Sometimes they agree, sometiems they compromise, and sometimes they settle things by playing their cards until someone wins. I don’t think that makes either of them bad–I think that’s something that happens when you’ve known and worked for someone as long as Sam and Dean have.
I see what you’re saying in saying that the issues were addressed obiquel in S5. I think you’re right in saying that it probably would have been better if they’d been more explicit, because for fans like me it really just wasn’t enough. I wouldn’t expect them to go back and redress S4 issues at thsi point–I don’t think there’d be much point. When I say they could right the wrongs, so to speak, I’d like them to have the boys start handling conflict better and actually seem to solidify their relationship again, since it has seemed shaky or shallow for a long time now, at least to me.
Oh my lord, from your lips to the PTB’s ears re: scenes were the boys outright say what they admire about each other. . Dean’s apathy was so pervasive last year that even though we knew he cared about Sam, his fatalism was so strong he seemed unable to show much of anything because he was just waiting for everything to crash down on his head. I don’t think we’ve heard Sam say what he thinks about Dean for a very long time now, and sometimes it’s hard to pin down how he feels about Dean. I think that’s sad for both Sam and Dean, given what we know is possible. I don’t think they could ever completely clear up Sam or Dean’s lingering issues, but they could do better. I think right now how the boys feel about each other is murkier than I care for, and I’d love for show to work on that.
I think the ship has long since sailed on apologies from past seasons–they failed (at least for me), and there’s no going back. The only thing to do is make things better from here on out. Getting the relationship back on solid ground is my number one hope for this year.
I haven’t heard much from either of them since S3. I want to hear what Dean thinks about Sam too. Seriously last season with the exception of HCW and BAI, they acted like work partners more than brothers. When you lose everything else, you’d think you’d cling to each other.
BTW I’m watching HCW right now. Jared was so good in this. He looks so scared. Like a 5-year-old in a giant’s body. And that scene in the warehouse. SOB. Have I mentioned lately I love Dean. The season held such promise. Sigh.
HCW was the one truly exceptional episode last year. I haven’t gotten Season 7, and I doubt I will. The bad thing about HCW is the knowledge that there was no follow up from that episode. As a standalone, it was a great episode! The best, IMO, of Season 7.
TBAI was an utter disappointment to me. It had ZERO brotherly moments even though Sam was supposedly on his death bed. Dean’s nonchalance about Sam’s predicament was shocking. Usually when one of the brothers is ill, the other cares but not in TBAI. There was no sense of urgency from Dean; he just seemed to be foing through the motions. Sam was off hunting ghosts while on the brink of death, thereby taking all the intensity out of his near death moment. Is he really near death if he’s hunting ghosts? Come on! Lucifer was turned from menacing into an annoyance, but that had occurred a few episodes prior. It was still a problem. Sam’s problems were insta-fixed and were never spoken of again. Ugh! I hated TBAI. It was an awful resolution to an even more poorly told story arc.
I did like two scenes: the beginning scene w/Sam taking the drugs and when Castiel got his memories back. The song that played during that scene was good.
It was at the end of 7-17 that I just sat there and realized that there was no point with Sam. That they were never going to really care about what they put him through and I didnt watch after that.
They knew from the start they were going to use Castiel to fix him all they needed to do was establish the hallucinations and the hand rub which basically replaced the wall as a writing device to avoid dealing with Sam and then wait until the time they were going to bring Castiel back and then Sam has abit of lack of sleep but still hunting and then Cas fixes him.
Sam 90% of the time last year was fine he was functioning fine and hunting fine it was for me a pointless exercise .
You know, the Castiel insta-fix wouldn’t have bothered me [b]IF [/b] we had actually gotten a story for Sam prior to that.
As you said, showing Sam occasionally rubbing his hand was NOT a story. I wrote about this when the season was airing and after the finale, but there were so many interesting ways they could have played Sam’s story. Sera straight up lied and said Sam’s “solution” would cause more problems than the issue itself. That was simply not true.
It was never made clear if Sam was really seeing Lucifer, or if he was just crazy. In 7.01, he saw chains and blood and heard screams. That made it seem like he was getting FBs of what he experiences. All of that abruptly ended after 7.02. For me, 7.021 and 7.02 were the ONLY good episodes involving Sam’s story arc!
I will never understand why they insisted on saying Castiel pulled down the Wall completely. He should have just cracked it a bit, esp. given the ineffective, inconsequential way the story played. Sam was fine before the Wall fell; he was fine after it fell! Nothing changed w/Sam. They didn’t even make him snappier or moody or sad or depressed. He was the same as always.
The entire storyline was pointless and had ZERO effect on Sam. Hell had an effect on Dean. It looks like Purgatory will have an effect on Sam. Sam, on the other hand, remains the same. Nothing impacts him or his life. It’s like he’s a robot or something. LOL!
I loved a lot of last season. I was just disappointed it the season long storylines and perhaps in the overall season itself. Because it looked like we’re going to really delve to BOTH characters. I thought they were going finally deal with Dean guilt and the depression it brings on and we’re going to finally get to glimpse in what was going on inside Sam’s head. And I thought they were set up to reconnect, like they hadn’t been since S3. Unfortunately NONE of that came to pass.
I still love a lot of the individual episodes though. I really liked tBAI and it would probably be love if they’d had one more brother scene at the end (I don’t count them fleeing to the car) and *whispers* left out the coat scene. I would probably fine with the latter if they gave me the former though.
[quote]I loved a lot of last season. I was just disappointed it the season long storylines and perhaps in the overall season itself. Because it looked like we’re going to really delve to BOTH characters. I thought they were going finally deal with Dean guilt and the depression it brings on and we’re going to finally get to glimpse in what was going on inside Sam’s head. And I thought they were set up to reconnect, like they hadn’t been since S3. Unfortunately NONE of that came to pass.
I still love a lot of the individual episodes though. I really liked tBAI and it would probably be love if they’d had one more brother scene at the end (I don’t count them fleeing to the car) and *whispers* left out the coat scene. I would probably fine with the latter if they gave me the former though.[/quote]
I loved TBAI right up until the quick cure at the end. I always thought it would’ve been better to end the episode at the point where Cas told Dean he couldn’t ‘fix’ Sams wall any longer. Then have a brother moment like I had been waiting for all episode – with Dean sitting with dying Sam – and develop the ‘fix’ more completely in the next episode….. but that’s just me.
When I was reading your response, for a moment there I thought you were going to end the scene with Sam dying. lol
I agree though that it should have been split into two parts. Maybe the first episode showing a slow deterioration of Sam, with it ending with Sam entering the hospital and Dean discovering Cas. The second episode dealing with finding a cure and Dean and Cas’s reunion. One thing I was expecting that we never got was a Dean scene showing him despondent, realizing that the only person he has left is going to die too. The whole season was about loss. It seemed obvious to me that in this episode Dean would hit bottom. The first episode could have been more of a Sam centric and the second one focus more on the Dean/Cas reunion.
Haha. NO. Can’t kill Sammy! lol
Your episode split, cd28, would be even better. I was aiming for the ‘Dean hitting bottom scene’, while also getting that brother moment. Although maybe we’ve had enough scenes of Dean agonizing over a prostrate Sam. 😮
[quote]Although maybe we’ve had enough scenes of Dean agonizing over a prostrate Sam. :o[/quote]
I’m sure there would have been a backlash from a certain part of fandom about another scene where Dean’s story is all about Sam, but since the season’s theme seemed to be losing everything, it seems like a big hole to have not given more emphasis to the brothers’ biggest loss. If the reason for the decision was the anticipated fan reaction, then this would have been a case of sacrificing the story’s integrity to appease a certain fan group.
Unless of course the Impala was considered the biggest loss.
[quote]
I’m sure there would have been a backlash from a certain part of fandom about another scene where Dean’s story is all about Sam, but since the season’s theme seemed to be losing everything, it seems like a big hole to have not given more emphasis to the brothers’ biggest loss. If the reason for the decision was the anticipated fan reaction, then this would have been a case of sacrificing the story’s integrity to appease a certain fan group.
Unless of course the Impala was considered the biggest loss.[/quote]
I guess that’s the flip side of such a devoted fanbase. But I would like to think (hope) that the story is not sacrificed to please any faction within the audience. (Probably naive of me)
My point was more that I personally have seen enough scenes of Sam comatose, or otherwise unable to participate in scenes. I relate more to Sam, but I really want to see BOTH brothers, equally.
As far as the Impala – This will probably get me drummed out of the family, but I have never been a car person, and love the Impala ONLY as it is part of the boys lives… It was a loss to them, and therefore had impact, but sure wasn’t any big loss to me.
[quote] I loved TBAI right up until the quick cure at the end. I always thought it would’ve been better to end the episode at the point where Cas told Dean he couldn’t ‘fix’ Sams wall any longer. Then have a brother moment like I had been waiting for all episode – with Dean sitting with dying Sam – and develop the ‘fix’ more completely in the next episode….. but that’s just me.[/quote]I would have loved that. An additional episode to deal with what Sam had gone through beside Luci hallucination and for Dean to deal with the possible loss of his brother. SIGN ME UP. That’s a fantastic idea.
[quote] Although maybe we’ve had enough scenes of Dean agonizing over a prostrate Sam.[/quote]
YOU CAN NEVER HAVE TOO OF THOSE!! ha. ha. But maybe that’s what Gamble was thinking. But they couldn’t have done something to switch it up. Like Dean talking Sam through his hallucinations or dreamwalking like in DaLD. And then had Cass do his “fix” at the end.
Because I agree this should have been when Dean hit rock bottom. The whole show has been based on the connection between the brothers, so Sam loss should have been by far the worse, but we barely got anything leading up to it and he was fine the next episode. It was pretty anticlimactic for 2 season long arcs. Sam’s madness and Dean’s depression.
Unfortunately, for me, there are very few S7 episodes I like, which is why I haven’t purchased the season yet. Out of the 23 episodes, there are probably only three I’d watch again: MTNB, HCW, and Plucky’s.
There were no other standout episodes for me. SF was okay, but the idea wasn’t carried throughout the season. I thought the boys were supposed to only have themselves adn be working under the radar, but I saw no real changes in their routines or patterns other than not being in the Impala. Sam and Dean should have had an exceedingly difficult time exisiting after what those guys did, but they were basically okay – as usual. That whole venture was a waste of time.
The Amy plot was also a waste of time. It didn’t really have an impact on Sam or Sam and Dean’s relationship. And the Leviathan were very disappointing as an enemy, and they weren’t shown as often as they should be, IMO.
Other than those three episodes, no other ones really come to mind. I am probably the only person who didn’t like Death’s Door. I like the scenes w/the Alpha Vamp.
S7 just wasn’t enjoyable viewing for me.
[quote]As for the writers being less interested to write for Sam, I think Dean fans made that argument for two years.[/quote]Sorry for butting in here.I don’t know about other fans but i have thought about Sam getting luke warm interest from writers from season 4 and i am not trying to compete but this is what i have felt and I know what you did last summer started that feeling
You’re right–it’s not a contest. I’ll simply reiterate that factions on both sides of fandoms have felt their favorite was the winner in the PTB done me wrong sweepstakes at one point or another, or even continuously. It’s up to the fan how they deal with that feeling, and whether they can live with it going forward.
I didn’t notice it during Season 4 b/c I thought Season 4 rocked from beginning to end.
Oddly enough, I noticed it in Season 5, and I think that’s because it was supposed to be Sam’s redemption story. There wasn’t much focus on Sam and how he felt about all the crazy, stupid decisions he made the prior year. It was more about how Dean did not trust Sam.
And let me make myself clear – I am NOT saying there shouldn’t have been some focus on Dean and how he felt about Sam’s actions in Season 4. Of course, there should have been. I just think some more focus could have gone to Sam and how he felt about the crazy, stupid decisions he made in Season 4. We didn’t really get to delve into what Sam was thinking. A lot of reasons were thrown out for why Sam was doing what he was doing in Season 4, but I don’t recall Sam ever adopting a reason or explaining what was going w/him. I don’t count the horror that was [i]Fallen Idols[/i]. That was horrible episode, IMO, esp. in terms of “reconciling” the boys and explaining Sam’s thought processes the prior year.
Before Season 7 aired, Season 5 was my least favorite season. Apart from TE, MBV, TSRTS, that Brady episode, and SS – there aren’t many Season 5 episodes I like. Sam didn’t do much in Season 5. In the end, he jumped in the Pit, but he spent most of the season just standing around and trying to earn Dean’s trust. It was all very subtle, possibly too subtle.
They never gave Sam an episode like Castiel’s TMWKTM. That was a great episode devoted to Castiel and explaining why Castiel was making whacked decisions. It’s what IKWYDLS should have been. Again, I noticed the fault in the way Sam’s Season 4 storyline played out after Season 4 ended. When it was airing, I thought it was great. I still think it’s a good season, but I do agree w/the Sam fans in that it didn’t do Sam any favors. His story was told far too much in the background.
In my opinion, Kripke destroyed the brother’s relationship and sacrificed Sam to do it, but then didn’t quite know how to repair it.
I, personally, think the writers have grown less interested in Sam as the years pass. I’m not sure why though. He’s more like a walking plot point or source of angst for Dean rather than a character in his own right. I hate to keep harping on Season 7, but I just can’t help but think if Dean were hallucinating on a daily basis, we would have seen the impact of that on Dean’s life throughout the season. It wouldn’t have been quickly shoved into two episodes like the writers suddenly remembered they had to address it.
Sam, IMO, needs to be more fleshed out as a character. I feel I know very little about him. He’s not as developed as Dean.
I think they they were both losers last season PTB sweepstakes. Both had potentially great stories. But feel both were squandered (unless by some miracle they are picked up and resolved this season). I would like character development and progression on both as well as a great storyline for both. And I need those to include some great brother moments.
And I think we can all agree, Sam fan’s, Dean’s fans and Bi-bro(not sure about that term it sounds vaguely sexual) that they need to be more explicit with character info. Both Jared and Jensen are fabulous actors, but all the writers except Edlund IMO, have relied WAY too heavily on the J’s ability to have whole conversations with looks. Don’t get me wrong I like that they are able to do that, but I personally could use some of S1-3 actual conversation. Hell at this point I would take S4-5 arguments. Some info that wasn’t just implied.
Hi emmau, I’m not sure wher this is going to end up in the thread, but I just want to comment about one thing. Also I haven’t read the entire thread yet, so I hope I’m not repeating anything that’s already been said.
You say that it was the imbalance as far as the brothers airing their grievances about one another that you didn’t like about 5.5. Thing is yes, Dean didn’t directly state what his issues with Sam were in that particular conversation, but I always thought that’s because we already knew. Dean didn’t trust Sam. He said as much to Sam in 5.1. Sam lied to him, kept secrets, went behind his back, and ultimately betrayed him by choosing Ruby over Dean. Dean was also very blatant about letting Sam overhear the whole “we know whose fault that is” comment (on a side note: that, to me, was punishment, reminding someone of what they’ve done wrong and I think that’s what Sam was reacting to). Sam hadn’t said anything about what he thought was wrong in their realtionship until then. And it wasn’t until after that conversation that Dean admitted to him “who would’ve thought killing Lilith would be a bad thing”, and that he broke the first seal, so it, or the apocalypse, wasn’t necessarily entirely on Sam.
Well, I agree that Dean didn’t state directly his issues with the way Sam treated him because we’d already seen it. The problem for me with that is that it did create an imbalance in the conversation. Dean was told very specifically what he did that made the relationship “never work”, but Sam’s faults were confined solely to S4 and really wasn’t that Ruby and the demon blood’s fault anyway? That, to me, doesn’t acknowlege that Sam, pre-S4, was just as responsible for any disfunction in the relationship. So taht’s why it bothers me.
Yeah, the “we know who’s fault that is” line–which really matched little Dean had said before this episode and nothing he’s said afterwards. Just like having Dean talk about training wheels so they could work together in the beginning of the episode and suddenly he’s OTT controlling and rude to Sam, making Sam’s smackdown of Dean a righteous one. That, to me, is one of the hyperbole of the episode that was set up so Dean and Sam could have this conversation. Dean didn’t talk about Sam being solely responsible for the apocalypse before this or after this, and clearly Dean had told Sam about the first seal already from Sam’s lack of reaction, so they both knew before this episode that Dean felt himself responsible for starting everything. So I admit for me that line and Dean’s sudden OTT bad behavior is all part of why I find this episode so contrived.
As I’ve said to Kelly, I agree that Dean had faults in the relationship before and during S4, and he had to work on those things. I don’t feel like show similarly and specifically addressed the opposite by having Sam acknowledge exactly what behavior pre-S4 and during S4 that made the relationship “never work.” Dean had to give speeches about how he had to treat Sam like an adult and had to support Sam’s choices, etc. I think a speech from Sam about how he hadn’t trusted or listened to Dean in S4 and how he needed to change that wouldn’t have been inappropriate. Just my thoughts, mileage varies.
Yeah, I get that, it’s just for me that it seemed very clear exactly what Sam and done wrong and him acknowledging it aloud wouldn’t have changed much, IMO. I agree though that maybe “never” was the wrong word to use here. I don’t think there was ever a time when their realtionship [i]never [/i] worked.
Thing is, I wasn’t trying to imply that Dean saying that “whose fault” line made Sam’s argument righteous or anything like that, just that that was what Sam reacted to. Up until that point he was very accepting of anything anyone said to him, most notable how he didn’t even argue when “Bobby” told him to lose his number, and that maybe that comment eventually just pushed a button.
I think, though if I recall a gut reaction to that scene, I didn’t find so much wrong with becasue I’ve had similar arguments with my own siblings. One does something wrong, we get angry and we try to explain ourselves by pointing out something the other person did we felt contributed to the original problem. None of my sibling fights have been quite as serious as Sam and Dean’s but having, unfortunately, been on Sam’s side of the equation, I understood how hard it can be to point out faults within a realtionship without it seeming like blame, which unfortunately the writers maybe didn’t quite succeed in. I guess I just understood that in a realistic way, but yes, I can see how viewpoints can differ.
Sorry for making you repeat what you’ve already said. I admit I may have jumped the gun a little and posted my comment before I’d read the entire thread, so apologies for that.
[quote]I think a speech from Sam about how he hadn’t trusted or listened to Dean in S4 and how he needed to change that wouldn’t have been inappropriate.[/quote]
This is a pet peeve of mine. When people say Sam didn’t trust Dean in season 4, or that he trusted a demon over his brother, what they’re saying is that Sam didn’t trust that Dean’s decisions are always better than his own. Since season 3, Sam and Dean differed on the issue of whether to try what Ruby was suggesting and see if the demon blood power could be used as a weapon. In season 3, Sam deferred to Dean’s judgement, and he watched powerless as Dean was dragged off to Hell. In season 4, Sam decided to do what he had wanted to do in season 3 and explore what his powers could do. Lying to Dean was wrong, but choosing his own path was not.
This is the Winchester family pattern. John expected unquestioning obedience from his sons. Dean followed him with “blind faith,” to quote Sam, and Sam chose his own path. It was the same dynamics playing out again. Dean was modeling himself after John and demanding unquestioning obedience from Sam. The message in the show seems to be that you should blindly obey your elders, and if you don’t you’re Satan. But I disagree with this message.
So when you say Sam didn’t trust or listen to Dean, I disagree. I think Sam always trusted Dean. He just didn’t always follow him. I think Sam also always listened to Dean. But again, you can listen to someone but still choose a different option.
That’s a really good point, cd28! The problem is the writers never bothered to articulate it in that way.
Basically, I feel the audience was made to guess what was motivating Sam. Several reasons were thrown out. Sam goes from saying “Boo Hoo” to Dean’s Hell pain to genuinely telling Chuck he’s doing what he’s doing b/c Dean has been too affected by Hell to act. Sam, IMO, was all ove the place. That’s the problem w/writing to the plot and not the character. There’s no consistency.
As a Sam (and bi-bro) fan, I can say I had a lot of trouble understanding Sam in Season 4. I did view him as choosing Ruby over Dean. Nothing Sam did or said that season made much sense to me.
That said, your explanation makes sense, and I wish Sam could have articulated that. Honestly, I don’t think the writers have given near as much thought to this than we have, which is sad.
I think what motivated Sam is a very complicated question, and we got several answers, but none are really wrong. They never clearly spelled it out with Sam monologuing the way Cas did in The Man Who Would Be King, so you kind of have to watch the series through several times and piece together the different clues to get a picture. This is my take on it:
In season 3, Ruby dangled in front of Sam that he had some serious power, and with Sam afraid of losing Dean to Hell, Ruby made a very convincing case. Added to this was the fact that Sam has never really been in control of his life. He was infected with demon blood against his will, which changed him and turned him into a monster. He hated being dragged around by John, being always in danger, and living a hunter’s life. He tried to get some control by going to college, earning scholarships to do it I assume, and building a life with Jess. But again that was ripped away from him from powerful forces. Now his brother was going to Hell. He must have felt like a pawn, always manipulated by forces much more powerful than they were.
In season 4 he got a taste of some real power and became addicted to it. The power fed his pride, and he started feeling like he was stronger than Dean. And part of that was true. At that point, Dean was emotionally traumatized by Hell, and Sam was more powerful than he had ever been before. Sam felt he was finally in a position where he could use this power to kill Lilith and save Dean from having to fight her himself, but of course that backfired because the power was rooted in evil. Adding to this was the fact that he was losing his humanity and losing his grounding by drinking blood and becoming the monster that he had always feared becoming. His rift with Dean, and the revelation that Dean thought of him as a monster, further pushed him over the edge and toward becoming a monster. That’s how I see it anyway.
emmau, I don’t want this to sound repetitive, but I just wanted to also reply to some of your points that it turns out I missed first time round. Yes, a lot of Sam’s behaviour can be attributed to the demon blood, but the lying and doing things behind Dean’s-well, he’s done it before so I don’t think there’s too much influence there. but I think I do get where you’re coming from now.
I actually went and read a transcript cause I don’t have the episode with me, and I think whole issue with what was wrong in their relationship came up because Dean kept saying he wanted their reunion to be a fresh start, and then, to me, he did start to get bossy near the end when they thought the case was wrapped up, and Sam pointed out that their fresh start wasn’t going to work if they fell into some of the same ruts they’d been in before. It probably would’ve been a good time for Dean to voice some of his own opinions about what was wrong, though.
Also, Sam did explicity say [i]one[/i] of the reasons he went with Ruby was because of what he felt Dean was doing. That was blame, but partial and not full blame, which I think was agreed earlier
Amy,
I hated the trenchcoat scene too, and thought it was extremely, almost obscenely OOC. However, with all due respect, the comment Carver made regarding him being “Dean and Castiel’s biggest fan” is one you are using out of context. The response he gave in that interview was given after a question that specifically asked about Dean and Castiel’s relationship. He wasn’t picking favorites. It would be like someone asking me – “What do you think of the Impala?” And me starting off by responding “Oh, I’m the Impala’s biggest fan!” Only to be later used against me to say that ALL I care about is the Impala, and no other car in the show. Carver and Edlund have likely gotten many questions in many interviews from people asking about Castiel, or Dean and Castiel. Castiel IS very close to the brothers, specifically Dean, and has been on the show for awhile and very involved in plots. While I personally didn’t appreciate how his character developed toward the mid-end of S7, you can’t blame Carver and Edlund for answering those questions and somehow say that they have bias. They’ve answered questions about Sam, too. The difference is, Sam has a “quieter” storyline this season, so he hasn’t gotten a lot of focus. That DOESN’T mean that he’s not important, just that he doesn’t have the “flashy” ‘Supernatural’ storyline that Dean does. Sam has had that however, numerous times in past seasons. But aside from the more individual storylines, BOTH brothers will be involved in an over-arching ‘closing the gates of hell’ mission this season, so hopefully that is something you can look forward to. I don’t think Sam will be ‘pushed out’ at all (he’s never been ‘pushed out’ in my opinion). I expect (hope) his storyline will be a refreshing one.
Intellectually I understand exactly what you are saying. But my heart is yearning for a writer…one writer… when asked about Sam to include that he (or she) likes Sam and is a fan of Sam.
Anytime someone asks a writer a question about Dean or Cas or another charector at some point they have enthusiastically included that they loved the charector or loved writing for the charector or loved thinking about putting that charector in scenarios or coming up with lines for that charector.
I think Sara Gamble said she loved Sam once way back in season 2 or 3. And then Castiel came on the scene and she was all about publically saying how much she loved Castiel.
So I guess my beleiving the writers, the producers and the publicist have a bias is because they are so enthusiastic about voicing their love for Dean adn Castiel. But not one person …not one writer, not one producer, not one publicist have said they liked Sam or showed enthusiasm for him in an interview. Hell, I hear and see far more excitement from the writers and producers and publicist for the IMpala even. And we know the Impala is an extension of Dean.
But Sam? Not one peep.
I know this is stupid and irrational but I want to hear one of the PTB … one writer…say aloud on record that they like Sam or even like writing for Sam.
My heart yearns for this but more importantly I yearn for this to be true.
Sadly, I’m not sure any of the writers do like writing for Sam. Even when he has the precious mytharc, he’s given little to do, and they don’t focus much on him.
It doesn’t shock me to hear that the first 8 episodes or so are Sam-lite. At this point, I wouldn’t be shocked if Sam were placed in a coma and just cut out of the show completely.
For whatever reason, I just don’t believe the writers take an interest in Sam. That’s just my opinion. He’s an interesting character to me, but they seem more interested in developing Kevin, Castiel, Crowley, Benny, Bobby, PIP of the week, etc. than Sam. Again, just my opinion!
[quote]Intellectually I understand exactly what you are saying. But my heart is yearning for a writer…one writer… when asked about Sam to include that he (or she) likes Sam and is a fan of Sam.
Anytime someone asks a writer a question about Dean or Cas or another charector at some point they have enthusiastically included that they loved the charector or loved writing for the charector or loved thinking about putting that charector in scenarios or coming up with lines for that charector.
I think Sara Gamble said she loved Sam once way back in season 2 or 3. And then Castiel came on the scene and she was all about publically saying how much she loved Castiel.
So I guess my beleiving the writers, the producers and the publicist have a bias is because they are so enthusiastic about voicing their love for Dean adn Castiel. But not one person …not one writer, not one producer, not one publicist have said they liked Sam or showed enthusiasm for him in an interview. Hell, I hear and see far more excitement from the writers and producers and publicist for the IMpala even. And we know the Impala is an extension of Dean.
But Sam? Not one peep.
I know this is stupid and irrational but I want to hear one of the PTB … one writer…say aloud on record that they like Sam or even like writing for Sam.
My heart yearns for this but more importantly I yearn for this to be true.[/quote]
Wow. I was really hoping that some corner of the fandom was going to pick up that challenge and say, “I’ve got one! I’ve got a quote from a writer who says he’s excited for Sam’s story!”
And yet, nothing.
Ugh, now I’m really depressed, and I was so hopeful for this season. Every season I lower my expectations of whether Sam gets any “hero” time, and each season my expectations don’t get met.
Maybe TPTB really are done with Sam, after so many Sam fans left the show after 7.17?
Ugh, I think I need a break from this, maybe head back to Tumblr, try to get some positivity back.
Sorry, I am answering this late, but I DID hear something recently that was directly complimentary of Sam/Jared. Robert Singer who directed Hello Cruel World (not sure of episode title) said specifically that he really loved the warehouse scene between Sam/Dean/Lucifer. He stated that he had been so proud of Jared’s work because he was so committed to his character and was so well prepared in the scene. I remember thinking at the time how nice it was to hear something like this about Jared for once.
That’s nice, and nice of you to post it, but I think what some of us are wistful about isn’t so much acknowledgment of Jared’s work (though that’s great, and I did like that there was quite a buzz in s6 about his performance of soulless Sam), but writers and showrunners expressing excitement about doing stuff with the character, having fun writing him, finding him a favorite to explore. I think it may be one of the reasons why they sometimes seem to come up with cool concepts for Sam but not really follow through on their impact ON Sam that few of the writers seem to be fascinated by Sam’s psychology, as opposed to doing metaphysical stuff with his storyline.
Though maybe I shouldn’t complain about this, because I think one of the reasons I find Sam so fascinating is precisely because he is relatively unexplored — I feel like I almost always know what Dean is thinking and feeling and why, and that’s compelling, but Sam keeps me guessing and speculating and trying to figure out what’s going on in his head and how he’s functioning, and in some ways that’s more fascinating.
The thing is is that Sam doesn’t have to be as dull as the writers have been making him lately. You’ve got a character who is super smart, is a little bit on the computer geeky side, is a bit of a control freak, is a kick-a** fighter who looks hot and a little scary carrying a knife, is a blend of a dark and compassionate, can be sarcastic, and who has been through some really crazy s*** that would cause anyone to question up from down. In addition, they could write some new habits or interests for him that we haven’t seen yet. They really can’t think of anything interesting to do with that?
See, I don’t find Sam dull AT ALL, just very introverted and inaccessible. It’s gotten so that most of the insight we get about him is when we are actively locked in his head, but when that happens, in WtLB or The Man Who Knew Too Much or the Hallucifer eps, it’s clear that Sam’s headspace is indeed strange and fractured and freaky and conflicted. And once you know that that’s what’s going on in his skull, it actually makes the very tamped down, super functional Sam we get most of the time really intriguing — he has to have some Mystery Spot style suppression and splitting going on all the time, just to be able to do that. The challenge for the writers is to get back into the habit of writing Sam episode to episode, let him begin to emerge and connect and talk about what’s going on with stuff a little, without losing the strangeness and intensity we get when it’s just three episodes a season and ending up with something horribly bland. That’s why, even while I really want more Sam emotional exploration, I’m a little bit afraid of it as well, because they’ve built up so much that I’m afraid they’ll just throw up their hands in despair, choose an easy issue (Sam being conflicted about ‘normal’) and write around that. I was reassured, though, by some of Edlund’s remarks about both Sam and Dean, how socially maladjusted they were in connecting outside each other. That gives me a thread of hope that they may be seeing how strange and awkward and necessarily incomplete it will be for Sam to begin to share more. That’s my hope. My fear is that it will just be a slightly slower form of the quick fix, and that we never will get the kind of long, slow aftermath for Sam that we’ve had for Dean. When what we really need is a slightly brisker pace for Dean (a higher rate of resolving his issues to exploring his issues) and the opposite for Sam — let him stay unfixed for a good long time and do some gradual, day to day coping that actually reveals the process.
But, though I am as endlessly discontented as the next Spn fangirl, I have to give the writers credit for doing something very right with both Sam and Dean — if they didn’t come across as compelling characters, we wouldn’t be here obsessing about them and wanting even more for them!
I don’t find the Sam of the earlier seasons, which I described (my perception anyway) in my previous post, dull. But I’ve found the writing of Sam since he got his soul back to be pretty uninspired. I’ve gotten the impression that the writers find him dull, and as a result, he’s become a pretty flat character. You can guess there must be more going on under the surface, but it’s never explored in any dialogue.
But I do see exploration of what’s going on under the surface; it’s just that it’s sort of a deep see diving expedition once in a blue mood, rather than a constant snorkling (oh, dear, my metaphors are terrible, I need more tea). I’m not saying it’s satisfying as a way of doing things, but, honestly, I find some of the emotional exposition of the show (The Man Who Would Be King for Cas, Defending Your Life or Sam, Interrupted for Dean) so heavy-handed that I’m sometimes glad that their approach to Sam is more oblique, that there aren’t more episodes where we are flat out told how Sam feels.
But the three Sams of The Man Who Knew Too Much, or Sam and Hallucifer (who, remember, is ALSO an aspect of Sam and his experience; the very fact that that kind of mindgame is the way Sam’s brain represented his trauma to itself, compared with Dean’s very different PTSD manifestations, is an insight), or even Sam and robo!Sam (I think it’s a huge failure that they didn’t more fully explore Sam’s reactions to robo!Sam, but I still think robo!Sam himself, his contrasts with Sam and some of the odd continuities, was fascinating) that’s not just guessing at what’s going on under the surface, it’s a direct glimpse.
My problem with the writing of Sam is more that it’s feast or famine with him: either we are literally seeing what his brain is doing, or we are shut out and guessing. Having a more three square meals a day approach to Sam development would be nice, and we desperately, desperately need REACTION from Sam, but I think if they went with taking the flatness of Sam’s day to day interactions as itself a symptom, a response to what’s happened to him, and wrote the story of hims gradually learning to not keep the aftermath of his experience locked away in designated bits of self like Hallucifer but integrate them, they could do something rather amazing with some of the failures as well as the successes of Sam writing to date.
I know I may have rose-colored glasses when it comes to Sam, but I honestly find the Sam of s4 onward more interesting than the early seasons Sam. Partly because it involves some guesswork, which makes me feel more actively involved as a viewer in piecing together Sam’s story than in Dean’s story, which is more handed to me on a platter. But more than that: I do think that they’ve done some really daring and interesting stuff with Sam, even if they haven’t always developed it as deeply or smoothly as I’d like. Mileages vary, of course! But arguably the best episodes of the season last year were Sam episodes, so I don’t think the writing always fails Sam, even though I wish it served him and Dean more consistently and didn’t let them down in different ways.
[quote]But I do see exploration of what’s going on under the surface; it’s just that it’s sort of a deep see diving expedition once in a blue mood, rather than a constant snorkling ([/quote]
Um, that would be “sea” and “moon.” I really do need more tea before I try to type!
I didn’t have the same reaction regarding season 6 and 7 Sam. While The Man Who Knew Too Much was an interesting approach to portraying Sam’s struggle, I found it lacking in emotional substance. RoboSam was basically what he was before – a cold-hearted killer who thought the soul made Sam weak. HellSam was a man broken from torture. And in season 7, HalliSam was a man afraid of his visions and where they were leading. I didn’t find any emotional depth or exploration beyond that level.
I did, however, find season 4 Sam fascinating. I loved how they explored Sam’s subconscious in When the Levee Breaks. It was a look at his deep-rooted personality traits and conflicting emotions. That kind of exploration of Sam’s personality was missing in seasons 6 and 7, IMO. As for the RoboSam time, there were moments that looked like they might provide some insight into Sam, but no strong theme or message regarding Sam (as opposed to the nature of a generic soul) ever jumped out at me, so I’m not sure if I was imagining them.
I don’t mind some guess work, but there has to be a happy middle between the writing for season 7 Sam (who was about 95% mystery) and Dean (who was about 5% mystery).
etheldred, couldn’t agree more.
I personally could use a little less obliqueness when it comes to Sam. I’m not saying he has to be an open book. But we need do feel like we are just not getting enough insight into to him. I loved tMWKtM but basically we learned that he is pretty messed up and is willing to risk his mind and his life for his brother. That’s not exactly new info.
As much as I think S1 was a little heavy-handed on stating goals and desires at times. I wouldn’t mind both brothers giving us an update on where they stand now. I need more than I got last season definitely.
SAm IS all those things. but when was the last time we ever saw Sam’s dry sense of humor? Or his quick wit? Or his Geekiness? The guy is a total technonerd. he should have been hanging all over Frank and Charlie to learn new tech skills. or his love for books? Or his OCD? His Intellegence?
I want to know how everything he’s been through affects all that? And I want to know more. I want to know his guilty pleasures…what HIS ‘pie’ is. And if the writers are seperating the boys more why can’t Sam have HIS own car. Stick it in a centralized location so when the writers split the boys up Sam has his own car…something that is an extension of him and his own tastes.
I don’t get why the writers dont see Sam as a complex, fascinating charector. The seeds are there, they just have to be nurtured.
I really missed Sam’s wit, intelligence, geekiness, and OCD in season 7. That’s why mentally slow and passive Sam, during the Leviathan season, seemed so out of character to me. I could have accepted a season without those traits if it was clear that the reason Sam was off was because he was suffering a mental breakdown, but Sam seemed otherwise fine for a lot of those episodes.
I haven’t seen since of the OCD or the tech savvy Sam in a while, but their was quite a bit of dry wit in both S6 and 7. I do think the mental illness was suppose to be the reason for part of the change, but I do think there should have been a greater difference than between before and after Sam.
OOOh, I couldn’t agree more. I mentioned on another thread that I hate it when a character is made to seem foolish or careless just to service the plot and that seemed to be happening to Sam A LOT in season 7. Very irksome. Case in point; during Reading is Fundamental (I think) Sam carelessly leaves the “WORD OF GOD” in Cas’s hospital room unguarded to go after Meg who’s being her usual charming self. This is when Kevin comes in to steal it. There is even a cheesy set-up shot lingering on the “WORD OF GOD” to show that it’s now vulnerable and that Sam is careless to leave it there. This charming scene is followed by an even worse one IMHO, which has Sam running around willy nilly trying to chase down Kevin and the stolen “WORD OF GOD” and isn’t that funny, haha… not. Ugh…. Sam looks first incompetent and then like a fool. Sam is neither of those things so it bugged me that he would be shown in that light. They do this with Dean too.. The scene in After School Special where he’s in those red gym shorts pegging little kids with dodge balls because it’s supposed to be… what? Funny? Not only not funny, but OOC.
Hi Amy, I just wanted to add a little personal note. My son and daughter-in-law have recently gotten into the show. Mostly because I kept nagging them to give it a try. They have now plowed thru 6 1/2 seasons in a few weeks and LOVE it. I was telling them about some of the online discussions. They absolutely love both characters and see Sam as I, and many fans. A “complex and fascinating” character. They just absorbed the show and really didn’t have time to over analyze anything. They also see him as intelligent, sensitive and an all around rich character. They were shocked by some of the choices the characters have made (ie demon blood drinking,shooting of Amy)but they seemed to understand and still love the show and Sam and Dean. I guess the show and the writers must not have gotten it all wrong. Maybe there are advantages to marathon watching the show.
[quote]Hi Amy, I just wanted to add a little personal note. My son and daughter-in-law have recently gotten into the show. Mostly because I kept nagging them to give it a try. They have now plowed thru 6 1/2 seasons in a few weeks and LOVE it. I was telling them about some of the online discussions. They absolutely love both characters and see Sam as I, and many fans. A “complex and fascinating” character. They just absorbed the show and really didn’t have time to over analyze anything. They also see him as intelligent, sensitive and an all around rich character. They were shocked by some of the choices the characters have made (ie demon blood drinking,shooting of Amy)but they seemed to understand and still love the show and Sam and Dean. I guess the show and the writers must not have gotten it all wrong. Maybe there are advantages to marathon watching the show.[/quote]
Have to admit, this is also how I got into the show. After much nagging from both my daughters, I started watching in April, finished in May… Rewatched the entire 7 seasons quite a few times since. (my youngest never has finished season 7, so I’ve since passed her by a mile!)
My take on the characters is exactly the same as your familys. Maybe it is the “marathon watching” angle. Which is definitely not all bad! 😀
I’ve found a huge divide in how people marathon watching vs not tended to evaluate Sam’s s4 storyline in particular. I think when they are doing something where there is some backgrounding for mystery and more gradually unfolding motives it’s a lot easier to take if you watch it all at once. I watched s4 in two days and I love that Sam, but I can see how if his slope into darkness had been spread out for me over a year I might have found it harder. And, of course, for Sam fans involved in online fandom it was a really rough year, with a lot of hate and character wars, so I probably also benefited from not discovering fandom until I was halfway through season 5!
Hi guys, just as someone who’s been watching since season1, I certainly agree there’s a difference between watching marathone style, and watching it well, not marathon style. As Leah mentioned above I do think part of it is because in marathon viewing, you don’t have as much time to think about and over-analyse the show and the characters and everything else. Also as the journey with the characters happens at a faster pace, (usually in a matter of weeks, it seems) rather than over the course of years, it may be that it’s easier to accept changes in the characters, too? I, for one still think Sam is every bit as “complex and fascinating” as he’s always been, even through the worst parts of S4. It was hard to watch though.
Oh, and etheldred, yes absolutely it was a tough year for Sam fans. That’s actually the year I got involved in the online fandom, and yeah, at times it certainly wasn’t pretty!
I have to admit, I have ZERO desire for Sam to get his own car. I know it’s officially Dean, but that is where they both grew up. And while Sam’s attachment to as strong as Dean’s, I believe he have quite a bit. It may be even stronger now that they’ve driven POS for such a long time.
Plus, that would mean the guys were separate even more. Don’t like that!
Something else that he formed an attachment too, would be great. I know a lot people saw, and I think maybe it was suppose to be, the laptop as his identifier. But I don’t think that was ever practical. Not only are the destroyed pretty easily but they become outdated really fast as well.
He needs something more permanent, if they’re going to go that route.
I have mixed feelings on this. Yes, the Impala was home for both Sam and Dean, but the show has been adamant that it is Dean’s and Dean’s alone. The fact that the show had Dean disconnect Sam’s Ipod and Sam being told that he had no right to make that change places the Impala squarely as Dean’s. Since the Impala is Dean’s then Sam can never attain any independence without his own car. However, fandom in general HATED it when Sam got his own car in season six and cheered when it got destroyed, so I’m reasonably sure that Sam will never have his own means of transportation.
I too wish Sam could have something permanent, but I don’t know what it could be. Perhaps the dog we’ve heard about, but I’m not sure a dog fits in the Impala any more than Lisa, or Amelia or another person. If Sam had rescued the amulet, I could get behind that, because it would be a sign that Sam never gave up on the brotherly bond even when Dean did. But the writers seem determined to leave the amulet behind and once it resurfaced, fandom would demand that Dean get it back.
Part of the problem, IMHO, is that whenever Sam wants anything of his own, the show goes to great lengths to prove that he is wrong to want it. Wanting his own life was shown to be selfish and unattainable in season one. Wanting to find out what he was hurt Dean in season 2. Wanting to save Dean had Sam be vulnerable to Ruby and led to releasing Lucifer. Dean’s desire to run the family business has been shown to be the only “right” choice and in that, Dean runs the show. Whenever Sam disagrees with Dean’s ideas he is usually shown to be completely wrong (see Scarecrow, Hunted, Ruby, wanting to be like John in Jump The Shark, his heaven in DSOTM, making amends for Soulless!Sam, Amy). The spoilers that Sam quits hunting already have people calling Sam selfish for not looking for Dean, not trying to find Kevin, not trying to kill the remaining Leviathans. The show is clear that Sam can’t even have his own dreams, he has to live Dean’s or destruction and grief follow.
If Sam is always wrong to want anything that doesn’t meet with Dean’s stamp of approval, then how can Sam have anything permanent that is his? It will always be subject to Dean’s acceptance.
I was going to suggest the amulet, but I figured it would be shot down, since it was Dean’s. But yeah if he picked it up after Dean threw it WOULD show Sam refusing to give up on their relationship-and show he is just as invested, despite the bad rap he sometimes gets. And this would be a good time to reintroduce it because if Sam had picked it up and hidden it somewhere, he would likely dig it out if he thought Dean died. But somehow I don’t see that happening.
Again I haven’t been reading spoilers, but Sam get a dog-AWWWW. But I agree the logistics in the Impala of having a dog might be complicated. But actually that could be good to Dean having to make accommodations in his baby for Sam’s baby -I kind of like it. If they did decide to make that into something I don’t think it would be nearly as bad a person in the back. I could actually see that working, but I won’t get my expectations up, since that is why I’m trying to avoid spoilers. So I go in without preconceived notions this year.
I seriously never saw Dean’s comments about the Ipod and making changes to the car as anything other then big brother banter. The tone implied joke, the look on both their faces implied joke-the MUSIC implied joke. I don’t think that was anyway meant to be taken seriously. And Dean even offered it to Sam when their relationship was at it most broken.
Yeah I was one of the people that cheered when it got destroyed. I think Sam’s sees the Impala as a extension of Dean and a symbol of family. So when Dean is around he doesn’t really need the symbol, because he has Dean. But when Dean is gone he clings to it as a piece of the person he lost. So I think he has the same connection that Dean does but I do think he feels that connection.
As far as the independence, what I found with their more distance relationship last year is that for me the show needs a certain level of codependency. And even the dysfunctional level that they had at times in earlier seasons is preferable to the somewhat distance work relationship they had a good portion of last year. If that is what their healthy relationship looks like then I think I’ll take the unhealthy one-it was more a lot interesting.
I think wanting things they can’t have or that will be taken from them or that they will put it danger is a Winchester family trait. Not just Sam’s. Dean wanted out too, but that ultimately cause lots of problems too. Same with Mary. I do think the show itself, inadvertently IMO, made that Sam was actually wrong to want to go to Stanford and leave hunting in S5. But in most of the other seasons, I was left with more of the impression that they were all just doomed by fate. That all the Winchesters were trapped to a certain degree by fate and history.
But I will agree in S5, he was definitely perceived to be the bad guy for wanting something outside hunting. I don’t know if they were just trying to establish the “running away” pattern or what. But I never saw Stanford as Sam running simply choosing a different life, but that season he was criticized for it. Which I thought was unfair.
Yeah, I can see that I didn’t really follow through with the kind of example people were maybe looking for, but I loved it nonetheless. I can’t understand the lack of commitment to Sam from the writers either. It seems to me that he’s gotten the best of the plot driven threads: the rebel, the powers, saving Dean, Demon blood, redemption, soullessness, Hell Wall..These are awesome story lines. Why didn’t they go anywhere? Why were they all so incredibly UNSATISFYING? The redemption arc is the only one that seems to have been completed in any satisfying way, and even then your mileage may vary. All other story lines were under explored or dropped entirely (Sam’s visions anyone?).
Anyhoo… am I the only one who LOVED Soulless Sam? I seem to be. I loved the story and Soulless himself. Hawt.
E – Nope you’re not alone. I really enjoyed SS, too.
Hoping (although not optimistic today) about a better season of Sam writing.
Table for 3. I loved SS. I actually think season six might have been better if they had stuck with the idea of having Soulless for almost if not all of the entire season. I saw real potential with Dean training SS how to act and then having the real conflict that bringing back Sam’s soul would really kill a sentient different person. Dean would not be able to leave Sam in the Cage, but SS’s plea about not wanting to die would have been more effective, especially if Dean could have taught him to act as if he had empathy or at least morals, even if he didn’t really feel it.
Yeah percysowner, that would have been fab! And I might have been able to stomach Dean cramming his decisions for Sam down Sam’s throat against his will (again) a little more easily if the soulless thing had gone on longer, or been more complex or more dire, or even if Dean had made any attempt to cope with and forge a relationship with what was left of his brother. I realize that Dean needed to force Sam to get his soul back, I mean Sam was positively dangerous without his soul, but it was still a heavy handed decision along the lines of ‘Sam makes bad choices so now I have to fix him again.’
And wouldn’t it have even been more fab if Sam’s soul in particular was worth something to the overall plot ideas about souls? Why wasn’t this very obvious connection made? It’s like the PTB said “here; the plot for season 6 is about souls, they are special and valuable and powerful enough to turn an angel into God… and OH, btw, Sam doesn’t have his soul, it’s still in the cage with Lucifer and probably worth more than 100 souls combined. But don’t try looking for any kind of connection between these story ideas though, cause there isn’t one.”
Agreed! That would have been really compelling, Percy. I’ve seen a few Star Trek episodes where a third being was created from two separate individuals, and the third being always asserted its right to exist. That would have been good!
I loved SS!
SS rocked! Loved him!
A PTB says something nice about Jared….its a sign of the apocolypse.
Seriously….I think its just me being sensitive but it really sounds like a backhanded compliment. Like Singer was surprised Jared was committed to his charetor and diddn’t expect him to be prepared for his scene. Do you have a link? I read spoilers/interviews like crazy and I’ve never seen that.
Yeah . . . I gotta agree w/you. Why does it sound like he was shocked and amazed that Jared did a good job? And why wouldn’t Jared be committed to his character? Hmmm . . . .
I can’t remember where I saw/read /heard this, and I’ve looked since. I want to say that it was in an interview or during episode commentary, but the actual statement itself did not come off as a surprise or a backhanded compliment at least not to me. Robert Singer seemed very sincere and more like he was stating a fact as to what stood out to him as the best part of the episode. He’s done it before with Jensen and it was taken at face value, so I saw no reason not to do so with Jared as well. Sorry that I can’t locate the source though.
I’m not particular excited for this season either. The domesticated Sam’s storyline is a recycled story from the sixth season. They needed a place to stick Dean for a year and now, they’re doing the same thing for Sam. It sucked the first time and I don’t have any hope for it this time. (It’s interesting how everyone is excited for Dean’s story, but the only thing exciting for Sam is his hair? And this is coming off a season where dealing with Amy got more episodes than Sam’s Hell.)
I’m not thrilled with Jeremy Carver at the moment. I really think he is going to throw Sam under the bus to promote Dean as this really awesome hero.
It’s not that I don’t want Dean to have this storyline, I do. It’s just that it is so unrealistic. Dean gets out of purgatory with just help from an old monster??? But the Leviathans couldn’t get out? That really just rubs me the wrong way.
I think it’s going to become clear that Jeremy Carver has his favorites. So far it looks that way. And in my experience if there isn’t that many spoilers before the season begins for a character or it only focuses on one thing, then there most likely won’t be much going on for that character.
As for just having the Winchester back, it’s cancelled out by more lying. I know that this time it will be acceptable since it’s Dean lying to Sam and generally, Sam gets over Dean lying in one episode. I was hoping for a more mature relationship for the brothers, but I don’t think we are going to get one.
I am excited to see the Impala and some new characters, but for right now, I feel like have been slapped and kicked in the face as a Sam fan all summer, so it’s really hard to get excited which totally sucks, because my inner Dean fan should be jumping for joy. But it’s so hard to get pass the upset over Sam. I’ve waited for Dean to have a real story for so long, but now, it’s at the expense of Sam’s character, point of view, and story. It just feels like such a steep prize to pay. I guess another poster was right, the good of this season is going to come with the Sam fans and Sam getting the short end of the stick. But right now, I don’t even think we are going to see the stick.
[quote]But right now, I don’t even think we are going to see the stick.[/quote]
This is what i am worried about too.
[quote]1. Because it’s “Supernaturalâ€. D’UH! I LOVE THIS SHOW! OF COURSE I’M EXCITED![/quote]
Don’t need any other reason
Katie’s thoughts are my feelings as well in a nutshell. I really hope we’re wrong.
[quote]Katie’s thoughts are my feelings as well in a nutshell. I really hope we’re wrong.[/quote]
[b]Katie, Sylvia37[/b], I share your thoughts and concerns too. I’m also not particularly excited for S8. After watching the recent promo I had a spell of excited giddiness but when I thought about it, my excitement was merely down to one rather lovely brotherly moment in that promo… and Sam’s hair. When the giddiness subsided I was back to the way I’ve been feeling all summer long about S8…basically rather dispirited and pessimistic.
I am very pleased to see that Badass!Dean is making a comeback. I’ve missed that Dean. However I am, primarily, a Sam fan and I very much share the worries and concerns of many Sam fans around the fandom right now.
I loved your 10 reasons and can hardly stay in my chair after reading your article. I’m not jumping to any conclusions based on a 2 to 3 minute clip. I mean how many times has this show surprised us in a good way? Guess I want to think positive. Even when we don’t like what the brothers are doing to each other, there is usually a lot more going on then we know at the time. I am just going to watch the onion peel and look forward to the tears that come with it. I’m sure there will be some. Maybe theirs too, which I love to see.
While I realize you’re a self-professed Dean fan who tends to put a Dean slant on most of your writings, the sad thing about this list is that I have the sense it’s not really slanted – that this list accurately reflects what is exciting for the people who are excited.
We have 5 items that are about Jensen/Dean (Purgatory, Jensen directing, Dean’s car, Dean on a beach, and Bad-ass Dean). We have four things that are brother-neutral (reunion, new characters, Carver, and the return of the show), and we have Sam’s hair. And to be honest, more people that I’ve read comments from, and myself, hate the longer look rather than love it.
I’d like to be positive about Dean’s Purgatory storyline, but the mess that was supposed to be Sam’s Lucifer/Hell storyline was such a big disappointment. And there are going to be comparisons in my head all season long.
When we see flashbacks, it will be a reminder that we not only never saw what Sam’s experience was like, but that we never even heard his version of what his experience was like. When we are taken through a well-crafted storyline of the mystery of Dean in Purgatory, it will be a reminder that Sam going to Hell could have gone somewhere! We had the boy king, finally united with Lucifer, falling into the pit chock full of powers, only to emerge with his powers mysteriously gone and all connections to his past with demons and his psychic powers magically erased from the timeline (no one mentions it anymore). When we learn how Dean got out of Purgatory, it will be a reminder that we never learned how Sam’s soul broke off from his body. Or that the story of Cas somehow being able to rescue Sam’s body from Lucifer’s cage (which was supposed to be impenetrable), and Cas’s sudden inability to tell the difference between soul and body, felt like a lame attempt at filling plot holes. When we see Dean emerge from Purgatory, it will be a reminder that we still have about a year of RoboSam’s life (when he emerged from Hell) that we’ve seen very little of.
I’m glad you’re excited about the Edlund vampire episode, but it just brings back associations to last year when we learned that once again Dean was chosen to go on the exciting location piece alone. In that case it was the trip back to the ’40s with Eliot Ness. The previous years it had been time travel – to the past and to the future. I’d like to hear that it’s being balanced with something that Sam fans can be excited for. Then I could get excited for Dean’s beach episode.
To add insult to injury, no one seems to be making much of an effort to give Sam fans anything to get excited about in promos or interviews. The relationship seems like is a good idea, but it’s not a storyline. It’s a side dish – a little character development on the side. If there is more to it than that, why hasn’t the show been promoting it more? And when Dean had Lisa/Ben, it was never treated like his primary story – always like a side dish. I’d like to think that Sam will take a more prominent role in the present day hunt than Dean, to balance out the inequity in the past-year storyline, but from what I’ve seen of the writing lately, I have little hope of that.
It’s hit or miss with Sam. In some episodes he’s smart and proactive Sam, but in too many others he’s just wallpaper while Dean or Bobby for the most part works the case and interacts with the guests.
But while I’m obviously not excited about this season yet, here is my own list of 10 things that at least give me some hope.
1. Sam’s emotions are back! Although Jared has been good at communicating some emotion through his facial expressions, we haven’t heard what has been going on in Sam’s head for several seasons now. And it’s so rare these days that he has a strong emotional reaction to anything. He’ll have to have some emotions in the Amelia storyline, won’t he?
2. Bad-ass Dean – I’ll join you on this one. Dean is just more fun when he’s being all bad-ass than stuck in self-pitying mode. I adored the Dean of the earlier seasons, but there were moments in seasons 4-7 when I just wanted to shake him.
3. The dog. I’m really hoping the dog sticks around. I’d love to see a hunter dog and Sam really needs something to call his own, other than the laptop.
4. A different approach to the story writing approach. I have to admit, this new feel and the flashbacks approach have me intrigued.
5. Lot’s of Crowley – and Crowley back to being their adversary rather than part of the Scooby gang.
6. The quest sounds pretty damn cool with lots of potential. And Kevin has been one of the less annoying guests the show has introduced lately.
7. The removal of father Bobby. OK, I’m going to take heat for this one. Bobby had moments of being a great character, but he was overused and the forcing of the father/sons relationship on us was dragging the show down for me. Side characters need to be written out after they’ve run their course. Not necessarily killed, but taken off the screen for a while.
8. Cas having some direction again. I love Cas, but last season he, like a lot of characters, seemed to be drifting aimlesslessly into goofyland. I prefer a more somber, reflective Cas, and it looks like that’s what we’re going to get.
9. The move to Wednesday. Friday was seriously crowded with a lot of my favorite shows, but I have nothing else on Wednesday that I’d rather watch.
10. It’s pairing up with Arrow. Arrow is looking good, so I’m looking forward to the matchup.
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, and I’m certainly a Sam pessimist, but a couple of glimpses of hope: I’m among those who liked Dean’s s6 storyline a lot, despite some major flaws of execution, but I will say that if I’d judged it by the spoilers that were coming out the summer before s6, I’d have been very discouraged. Maybe Sam will also have the equivalent of being the one to figure out how to rescue a soul and the one to do so, and being the one to take down the Mother and do so, and the one to be more emotionally involved in the Cas plot. Maybe the Amelia storyline will intersect with the supernatural as frequently as Lisa’s and Ben’s (though that would suck for Amelia!). So, while I hate the Sam spoilers, it doesn’t mean I’ll necessarily hate the Sam storyline. I’m sort of hoping that Sam will somehow save Dean in the Benny situation, as Dean saved Sam from soullessness, even though he couldn’t save him from the Cage.
And, while the Dallas con that’s been going on hasn’t revealed any major spoilers that I know of, I was intrigued by the fact that Mark S. was talking a lot about Jared. Just con jokes, nothing spoilery, but it did make me wonder if maybe he’d been filming with Jared and perhaps there was some particular entanglement of Sam and Crowley in the plot. That may be huge wishful thinking, but I can hope, right?
Also, Kevin being a major player gives me hope, because, though they haven’t developed it yet, he and Sam have a LOT in common, with the whole academically ambitious kids who are dragged out of normal life by supernatural destiny thing. There’s a tendency for important secondary characters to default to being more Dean-tilted than Sam-tilted when they are theoretically common to both, maybe Kevin has the potential to be the reverse.
I would be very happy with a lot of interaction between Sam and Crowley this season. Sam is supposed to have an unique relationship with demons, and when Crowley was first introduced, there was a running gag about how Sam was always trying to kill him. I want to see smart, capable Sam who has independent thoughts, some emotion and drive, and can hold his own against any demon.
[quote]I want to see smart, capable Sam who has independent thoughts, some emotion and drive, and can hold his own against any demon.[/quote]I am hoping to see this against Benny.
[quote]I’d like to be positive about Dean’s Purgatory storyline, but the mess that was supposed to be Sam’s Lucifer/Hell storyline was such a big disappointment. And there are going to be comparisons in my head all season long.[/quote]I could not have said it better.[quote]I’d like to think that Sam will take a more prominent role in the present day hunt than Dean,[/quote] me too
I dont think they are trying to sell this season to the Sam fans .
And I would like an answer has to why all those things about Sam seem to of vanished , because as far as I know he should still have demon blood and be addicted a person never gets over a addiction do they? and considering the boys will be interacting with demons should Sam’s connection not be referenced to?.
If Sam’s story what they had put him through hadnt been reduced to hallucinations a hand rub which might as well been a aspirin and a instant fix and looking for the nearest quick exit door they could find out of the story then maybe my misgivens with this season would not exist.
I am pleased for those that are excited though and all power to them.
Sam is one half of the season and you have sum up what Sam and the Sam fans means to this show. They don’t really want Sam or his fans around. You are right. They aren’t trying to sell this season to the Sam fans at all, because Sam doesn’t matter to them. They’ve dropped everything, because Sam doesn’t matter.
I’m not excited about this, because being told that half the fandom doesn’t mean anything isn’t the best way of starting a season. How am I suppose to get excited for Dean when I know that Sam doesn’t have anything and is going to get thrown under the bus to benefit Dean? That is going to leave so much resentment towards Dean. I really don’t know if I will be able to hold on for Dean’s story.
Heck, even Sera Gamble at her worst gave Dean a hell of a lot more than Jeremy Carver is giving to Sam and Jared. Jensen made a point to say that he was working a lot at the beginning of the sixth season, but at the beginning of the eighth season guess who is making the jokes about working a lot? Jensen. And people think Jeremy Carver is doing so much better than Sera Gamble? Most people liked Sera Gamble episodes, but ended up hating her as showrunner. It looks like the same stupid thing is going to happen with the eighth season and Jeremy Carver. And he has admitted to liking Dean and Castiel better.
So, why in the world would I trust of have any faith in him right now? They aren’t even attempting to show anything for Sam. Not even the promo pictures has Sam by himself or with a different guess star. It’s Sam attached to Dean or right behind Dean standing like some protective dog. It not that they aren’t trying to sell Sam to the show. It’s the fact that they look like they probably hate the fact that they have to do anything for Sam. It’s so painfully clear what Sam means to Mr. Carver and the show. And it sucks, because once upon a time, he wrote “Mystery Spot.” A part of me wishes he had never taken over as showrunner, because at least then I could pretend like someone on the writing staff really like Sam as a character. But now I’m so filled with doubt and upset that I don’t know if I’ll make it to the end of the season.
[quote]
I’m not excited about this, because being told that half the fandom doesn’t mean anything isn’t the best way of starting a season. [/quote]
Maybe because the fandom should be about THE SHOW, and not split between the lead characters? And so the writers and showrunners shouldn’t worry about please “a half of the fandom” or the other?
I can understand the worries. And I’m not sure if I want a good storyline or mytharc for the season if that means not centering it on the brothers, and on BOTH brothers. Because that’s what made and makes the magic of the show.
What I don’t understand is why on earth the writers should worry “for half of the fandom”. They have to worry only about the story: to make a good one, a coherent, exciting, entertaining, moving and thrilling story. About BOTH brothers, but just because that is an advantage for the story itself, not because that would please “half of the fandom”.
[quote][quote]
I’m not excited about this, because being told that half the fandom doesn’t mean anything isn’t the best way of starting a season. [/quote]
Maybe because the fandom should be about THE SHOW, and not split between the lead characters? And so the writers and showrunners shouldn’t worry about please “a half of the fandom” or the other?
I can understand the worries. And I’m not sure if I want a good storyline or mytharc for the season if that means not centering it on the brothers, and on BOTH brothers. Because that’s what made and makes the magic of the show.
What I don’t understand is why on earth the writers should worry “for half of the fandom”. They have to worry only about the story: to make a good one, a coherent, exciting, entertaining, moving and thrilling story. About BOTH brothers, but just because that is an advantage for the story itself, not because that would please “half of the fandom”.[/quote]
It’s true that the writers should be focused on writing a good story, rather than pleasing all parts of the fandom. But I think the concern here has been that “the magic of the show” isn’t there for a lot of us if both brothers aren’t active participants, and that Sam becoming less and less of a participant has been a growing trend for the past few years. All signs point to this trend continuing next season.
I hope I’m wrong, but at this point I’m starting to feel like the show has permanently changed, and by not putting much of Sam in the promos, they’re not even being subtle about it anymore. So now it’s on me to decide whether to keep watching. I’d like to believe that the show will shift back again, but I’m starting to feel like the person who’s just not getting the hint.
In a perfect world, Brynhild, you would be correct. However, the writers are only playing to one side of the fandom. They aren’t including the brothers in the story line or at least they don’t appear to be. Yes, the brothers are after the same thing, but that isn’t the same as having an active role in the plot and show. Right now, the spoilers are very Dean centered, so that’s where my worries are. I want Dean to have a story, but not at the expense of everything that makes Sam a good character and lead in the show. They are starting Sam’s story off so far by going out of their way to make it difficult. Sam gives up hunting, looking for Dean, looking for Kevin, and going after Crowley for something he hasn’t wanted since the second season and has a girlfriend when he hasn’t been interested in anyone (with his soul at least) since the fourth season (Ruby and Cara). To me, that doesn’t appear to be a coherent story. That’s more of same thing that happened in the sixth season. Sam needed to be out of the way for a little while, so they stuck him in normal life. Hence, why I do believe that half of the fandom and one of the main leads doesn’t matter anymore. The writers had to go out of their way to take Sam away from hunting. And they are going to use it and Dean’s purgatory story to create more drama between Sam and Dean. That to me takes away a lot of the reasons why I watched the show for all these years: Sam and Dean together.
Keeping Sam and Dean a part makes it very easy for the writers to get caught up and only play to one character. The writers are only currently playing to one character. They are only openly discussing Dean and putting Sam out to pasture. Even the small snippets we have been getting about Castiel are more interesting and show more promise than Sam’s romance. Mainly because Castiel’s story is at least ongoing in Purgatory, which is major in comparison to Sam who is having trouble leaving his normal life behind (but he does) and his girlfriend (who is now out of the picture, because they are on break when the season begins). Sam’s story is already done before the season begins. So far, I’ve only heard about Jensen filming purgatory scenes. I haven’t heard anything about Sam’s flashbacks or if Sam’s story even fillers into the actual season. That, to me, screams that Sam isn’t’ that important or active in the season.
But even if I weren’t looking at their individual stories, I have barely heard anything positive about Sam and Dean. Dean is lying to Sam and the brothers get into a fight in episode 5. Outside of that, I’m not sure if they have filmed that many more scenes together. It’s just Purgatory, Purgatory, Purgatory, and more Purgatory. That’s clearly only looking at one character and focused on one side of the fandom. The show itself has split between it’s two leads. One is an actual lead, the other doesn’t appear to be. There is no balance so far. And doesn’t make a good story to me. But BOTH brothers don’t seem to be involved.
Right now, I’m agreeing with cd28, I feel like the show has been permanently changed and Sam isn’t a part of it. It started a long time ago, but now, they don’t even care if they are blunt about it. They didn’t do much with Sam’s point of view in the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh seasons and I’m a fool to believe that this season was going to change. I wish that Sam could have a more active role in the show and have some point of view, but that isn’t going to happen unless Sam is at the very least present. The show isn’t taking any advantage of using both brothers. They haven’t taken advantage of using both brothers in a couple of seasons now. I honestly did not think they could make Sam anymore less present and participate any less, but apparently, the show can out-do itself there.
So, that’s why I’m looking at the fandom and show being divided. The writers should be looking out and trying to do something with both brothers, but they aren’t. They started talking about favorites and “biggest” fans this summer and the spoilers reflect that for the most part. If they had a story for Sam, a strong one, then they need to say something. They should be promoting BOTH leads and brothers, because now is the time to get people interested in watching the show again. But instead they recycled stories and now everyone has split on it. But in all the seasons that I have actively been online for the summer break, I have never seen this many times fans saying that they feel like the have slapped in the face as many as I have seen this summer break. I’ve said it several times, but I’ve seen it in so many other places too. I don’t remember ever seeing that in the fifth, sixth or seventh season comment sections, even when some of the Dean fans were questioning if Sera Gamble knew Dean’s name. That really makes me question this upcoming season.
If Jeremy Carver really had a story for Sam, why would he be promoting this season in such a way that fans are saying they feel like Sam has been thrown under a bus and the fans feel kicked? Especially, when the Dean fans don’t feel the same way? They get to be excited for the season. Sam fans get to be excited for Jared’s hair and dog? The show isn’t focused on a story about two brothers anymore and the writers seemed to be only involved with one character. So, why is it a problem for the fandom to be split? The showrunners and the writers are playing to the sides and they are creating a bigger divide. (Mostly due to having the brothers being at odds or lying to each other, but also partly due to the show only writing for one character. ) One character gets the point of view or one character gets the story. However, this season, it looks like Dean gets not only the point of view, but also the entire story connecting to mytharc. That isn’t writing a good story. Maybe one for Dean. But I want the show to have exciting and moving things for BOTH brothers, but I’m an idiot for ever even hoping for that.
I’m not overly happy about the balance of the spoilers, but this is overstating it.
*some fairly specific spoilers to come, if any want to avoid*
Sam has a brief flashback with Amelia in 8.3, Amelia is appearing in the current timeline in 8.5 (so her and Sam’s story isn’t over before the season starts, whether or not they get back together), and may also be appearing in flashbacks in that ep, and I’ve heard she’s in 8.6, too. Also, it’s not necessarily going to be the case that every Sam flashback has Amelia, so Jared may have filmed others. It’s true that there are indications that at least the first five episodes are a bit Sam-lite, but they aren’t Sam absent.
Etheldred, I have only heard about Amelia in 8×03. I didn’t know about her in the current timeline. I don’t follow twitter, so that’s where I probably missed a lot of spoilers.
However, the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh seasons all started out with Sam-lite episodes. Sam’s point of view was never recovered from those episodes.
From what I understand, the season is going to begin very Dean-heavy and Purgatory heavy. But even if Sam is included more in the season than the spoilers appear to be telling that does not mean that Sam has a strong role in main story or an active one. Sam being off with Amelia only tells me that Sam is onscreen, not that Sam is participating in the story. Dean clearly is. And so far, Amelia seems to be more of a babysitter for Sam while Dean is off getting deeper in with Benny.
I might be overstating in some places, but based on what I have seen Dean is the only one playing any type of significant role in the mythology. But a large part of my problem for Sam is the fact that everything that happens to him gets pushed to the side or vanishes.
Currently, I don’t care about Amelia, but good writing could fix that. What does bother me is Jensen asking that Sam get more story time AND finding out that Jared has had at least one five day break while shooting an episode.
Technically In The Beginning was “Sam-lite” because Sam got a whopping 45 seconds of screen time in it. Similarly, The End had 30 seconds of Sam and 5 minutes of Jared as Lucifer. So 10-12 Sam-lite episodes (first half of the season) does not look appealing to me. I am also painfully aware that JC wrote In the Beginning, the first episode where the writers decided that Sam was completely and totally dispensable.
I am very worried about how this season will proceed.
[quote] Sam gives up hunting, looking for Dean, looking for Kevin, and going after Crowley for something he hasn’t wanted since the second season and has a girlfriend when he hasn’t been interested in anyone (with his soul at least) since the fourth season (Ruby and Cara).[/quote]I would like to see how the show runners will explain this.
If I may jump in, I think what is happening this year very simple: Dean has a ‘Supernatural’ storyline that makes him the wild card, while Sam will be – for the first time in a long time if not ever – allowed to be the ‘rock’ or ‘center’ for the story. This is not unfair IMO because Sam has had the ‘Supernatural’ storyline for several seasons, for better or worse. Sam’s storyarc could very well be the lynchpin of the season, which may be why it’s on the down-low. They can’t give it away because they’d give away everything. OR, he’s just got a quieter season, which is new and quite refreshing for his character – I don’t pay attention to the spoilers about who was filming when, as I am not privy to know the reasons behind those choices or how they may play out. I think people may be missing the MAJOR arc for this season, which is the quest to close the gates of Hell. This is something BOTH brothers will be after and involved with equally, and I think we ALL have this to look forward to.
[quote] I think people may be missing the MAJOR arc for this season, which is the quest to close the gates of Hell. This is something BOTH brothers will be after and involved with equally, and I think we ALL have this to look forward to.[/quote]
I really hope you are right, Bamboo. A joint quest would be just what we need, and I have all my hopes for a new season on that.
Sam having the storyarc didnt mean very much if he didnt get much of the pov. Dean has always been in a different position than Sam that in regardless the storylines Dean was heavily involved wether his own or Sam’s.
Sam isnt in that position I do agree I think the quest will involve both but I dont think Sam’s story will be lynchpin like you said they have decided after fixing Sam that he will get a domesticated sl and Dean the firework sl . How well it is seen will be if the writers give Sam’s story the same attention and that it wont get overwhelmed by Dean’s.
In cutting Sam out of something so major in some attempt to give him a ”quiet” sl or something does come in handy for what they want to do with Dean . To be truthful Sam and quiet is something I get nervous about as it is. The Amelia sl is something I hope will open Sam up and Sam gets to talk to somebody which is long over due .
[quote]Sam having the storyarc didnt mean very much if he didnt get much of the pov.[/quote]Yeah for Sam having all the storyline (rolling eyes)…Dean was very loud and clear all these seasons..never once did i see Dean not airing his opinions about Sam’s actions….If Sam being quite means he will give his opinions to Dean’s actions and not just stand behind Dean then it is OK.
I will tell why i am not very happy because of Cas focus anytime…because mostly his interactions are with Dean …Dean does not suffer from missing screen space but Sam does.
[quote] Dean has a ‘Supernatural’ storyline that makes him the wild card, while Sam will be – for the first time in a long time if not ever – allowed to be the ‘rock’ or ‘center’ for the story. This is not unfair IMO because Sam has had the ‘Supernatural’ storyline for several seasons, for better or worse. [/quote]
Right. Almost dying and having face to face conversations with a hot reaper and Death aren’t supernatural storylines. Being pulled into Hell by hell hounds and Lilith isn’t a Supernatuaral story. Being pulled out of Hell by angels and being told that you started the breaking of the seals that will start the Apocalypse isn’t a supernatural storyline. Being told by those angels that they have a plan for you, and that you’re the only one who can stop the Apocalypse isn’t a supernatural story. Being faced with a choice of whether to allow Michael to use you as a vessel and possibly save the world isn’t a supernatural storyline. Having an angel best friend who turns dark and opens a door to Purgatory isn’t a supernatural story. Fighting and killing the mother of all monsters isn’t a supernatural story. Fighting and killing Dick, the head Leviathan, isn’t a supernatural story.
And Sam has never been the “rock” in the story. He wasn’t the one to convince Dean to see shades of gray and not kill Leonore when Dean was having trouble dealing with his father’s death and was starting to look scarily like Gordon with his black-and-white views. Sam wasn’t the steady one who forced Dean to face his issues and realize that he didn’t want to go to Hell in season 3. Sam wasn’t the one to talk Dean down from saying yes to Michael in season 5.
[quote]Sam’s storyarc could very well be the lynchpin of the season, which may be why it’s on the down-low. They can’t give it away because they’d give away everything. [/quote]
I might believe that this was a possibility if the mystery of what was wrong with Sam in season 6 actually led to something that had an effect on Sam. Instead Sam’s soullessness and wall were portrayed as Dean’s issues, something for Dean to fix and then later something to divide Dean/Cas. The wall was supposed to lead to a mental crash that debilitated Sam, but instead we got a few hallucinations, a whole lot of hand rubs, and a temporary case of sleep deprivation.
[quote]OR, he’s just got a quieter season, which is new and quite refreshing for his character[/quote]
His seasons have been nothing but quiet since he let out Lucifer. Things have happened to Sam, but we’ve never been given any more than a few episodes to explore the effect on Sam before they’re solved, filed away, and never mentioned again. And none of the things that have happened to Sam since he jumped into the cage have had anything to do with the mytharc of the story. Sam wasn’t even portrayed as being very interested in hunting Dick even though Dick was supposed to be the greatest threat the world has ever seen. This upcoming season might be the third consecutive season in which Sam has no tie to the mytharc. And while Dean’s ties to the mytharcs in the past two seasons have been indirect (his friendship with Cas and his obsession with hunting Dick), at least he had a connection. Sam could have been completely absent in both seasons 6 and 7 and it wouldn’t have affected the mytharcs (the Cas/Crowley deal and the hunt for Dick) one bit.
[quote]Right. Almost dying and having face to face conversations with a hot reaper and Death aren’t supernatural storylines. Being pulled into Hell by hell hounds and Lilith wasn’t a Supernatuaral story. Being pulled out of Hell by angels and being told that you started the breaking of the seals that will start the Apocalypse isn’t a supernatural storyline. Being told by those angels that they have a plan for you, and that you’re the only one who can stop the Apocalypse wasn’t a supernatural story. Being faced with a choice of whether to allow Michael to use you as a vessel and possibly save the world isn’t a supernatural storyline. Having an angel best friend who turns dark and opens a door to Purgatory isn’t a supernatural story. Fighting and killing the mother of all monsters isn’t a supernatural story. Fighting and killing Dick, the head Leviathan isn’t a supernatural story.
And Sam has never been the “rock” in the story. He wasn’t the one to convince Dean to see shades of gray and not kill Leonore when Dean was having trouble dealing with his father’s death and was starting to look scarily like Gordon with his black-and-white views. Sam wasn’t the steady one who forced Dean to face his issues and realize that he didn’t want to go to Hell in season 3. Sam wasn’t the one to talk Dean down from saying yes to Michael in season 5.[/quote]
I was referring more to the driving ‘supernatural’ storyarc, the ones that last for half a season more, i.e. psychic visions, demon blood, soullessness, hallucinations. I think it goes back to your own assertion that a lot of stuff happens TO Sam, with Dean left to fix things. But I personally believe the storylines have been very give-and-take and equal over the years. I do think Dean’s have been more human, emotional storylines while Sam’s have leaned toward ‘supernatural’, plot-driving storylines. And I think that is going to be switched this season, from my understanding of the spoilers.
[quote]I might believe that this was a possibility if the mystery of what was wrong with Sam in season 5 actually led to something that had an effect on Sam. Instead Sam’s soullessness and wall were portrayed as Dean’s issues, something for Dean to fix and then later something to divide Dean/Cas. The wall was supposed to lead to a mental crash that debilitated Sam, but instead we got a few hallucinations, a whole lot of hand rubs, and a temporary case of sleep deprivation. [/quote]
You mean S6, I believe. I was going to respond to this, but our perceptions of the show here are just so different. Of course Dean tried to fix Sam – what else would he do? And who else was going to fix him? Of course what Cas did to Sam also hurt Dean – Sam is Dean’s brother. But to say these things didn’t affect Sam is something I just don’t see. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
[quote]Things have happened to Sam, but we’ve never been given any more than a few episodes to explore the effect on Sam before they’re solved, filed away, and never mentioned again. [/quote]
That’s pretty much how it is with Dean too. Only lately his issues are never resolved, they just go on and on. I’d argue that ‘a few episodes’ is a lot. I’d argue that soullessness WAS the mytharc of S6. Sam wasn’t interested in hunting Dick in the same WAY Dean was i.e. he wasn’t revenge-driven. He wanted Dick dead, but he wasn’t unhealthily obsessed the way Dean was. And Sam could never be absent from a season of the show, because Sam is an equal and necessary part of the show, just like Dean is.
The one thing I think I’ve read that is a fair criticism is that we haven’t gotten much of Sam’s POV at all the past few seasons. Because, as I said before, he hasn’t been the ‘rock’ or ‘center’ of the show – instead – as you said, things have been happening TO him. So hopefully that will be a refreshing aspect of S8. With nothing happening TO Sam, we’ll get to him doing a lot of different things and being in a different role. I’m excited about that.
I realize my earlier response probably came across as a little too defensive, and I apologize for that. Note to self – don’t respond to online posts until you’ve had your morning coffee. But as to your answers …
[quote]I was referring more to the driving ‘supernatural’ storyarc, the ones that last for half a season more, i.e. psychic visions, demon blood, soullessness, hallucinations. I think it goes back to your own assertion that a lot of stuff happens TO Sam, with Dean left to fix things. But I personally believe the storylines have been very give-and-take and equal over the years. I do think Dean’s have been more human, emotional storylines while Sam’s have leaned toward ‘supernatural’, plot-driving storylines. And I think that is going to be switched this season, from my understanding of the spoilers. [/quote]
I just don’t see as big of a gap between the number of supernatural stories that Sam has had with those Dean has had. Of the four that you mentioned, “psychic visions, demon blood, soullessness, hallucinations,” I agree that the psychic visions and the demon blood drove the supernatural mytharc, but the other two “soullness” and “hallucinations” did not. I don’t see Sam’s soullessness as season 6’s mytharc, I see the Crowley/Cas deal and attempt to open the door to Purgatory as the mytharc. Everything tied back to that deal – the reappearance of Samuel, the hunt for alphas, the appearance of Mother, Cas’s civil war and Heaven’s nukes. The fact that Sam was missing a soul symbolically tied into that in the sense that the season was about souls, but Sam’s actual story – his body somehow becoming separated from his soul, and the quest to get Sam’s soul out of Lucifer’s cage – was not directly tied to the Cas/Crowley/Purgatory deal. As for the hallucinations, there was never anything supernatural about them implied. They were supposed to be the mind’s way of reacting to a horrible experience – a little more colorful than Dean’s PTSD, but nevertheless, the same idea. The only supernatural part of them was Cas’s angel fix, and I guess the idea that a physical wall could block out memories, but they certainly didn’t drive anything. Sam’s trauma didn’t cause Cas to become God, it didn’t bring about the release of the Leviathans. And Sam wasn’t instrumental in killing Dick in the end. What big contributions did Sam make that helped bring Dick down?
With Dean, we saw his inability to let go of family cause him to make the extreme choice of selling his soul to bring Sam back, which led to him to go in hell, breaking the first seal, etc. His post-hell PTSD fed into his decisions about whether to say yes to Michael. On Sam’s side, his feelings of powerlessness and wish to save Dean led him to start drinking demon blood. In both sides, personal storylines evolved into mytharc-driving Supernatural ones.
[quote]You mean S6[/quote]
Yes, I caught that and corrected that.
[quote]But to say these things didn’t affect Sam is something I just don’t see. We’ll have to agree to disagree.[/quote]
I would image they affected Sam offscreen, but we didn’t actually see much of this onscreen. Sam’s personality post wall collapse seemed pretty much the same as it was before the wall collapsed. And we never saw or heard Sam reflect on all of this much, other than his comment to Bobby that other people have it worse.
[quote]That’s pretty much how it is with Dean too. Only lately his issues are never resolved, they just go on and on.[/quote]
I’ll agree that Dean’s issues seem to go on and on. I don’t think the writing for either character has been stellar the past couple of years, but the difference is that Dean had a much more direct link to the Purgatory mytharc than Sam has had during that period. And while Dean goes around and around on issues, at least we see him working through them.
[quote]Sam wasn’t interested in hunting Dick in the same WAY Dean was i.e. he wasn’t revenge-driven. He wanted Dick dead, but he wasn’t unhealthily obsessed the way Dean was.[/quote]
Healthy or not, I was was annoyed at the way he was portrayed as putting every small hunt above the Dick hunt in season 6. I thought this was OOC. He doesn’t need to be obsessed to realize that Dick is a much bigger threat to the world than another ghost or monster.
[quote]Because, as I said before, he hasn’t been the ‘rock’ or ‘center’ of the show – instead – as you said, things have been happening TO him. So hopefully that will be a refreshing aspect of S8.[/quote]
While I’m hoping for more POV than previous seasons, I have no expectations that Sam will be the “center” of the show the way Dean has been, or that we’ll see the present-day quest storyline through Sam’s POV. With this group of writers, it’s highly unlikely. We couldn’t even get equal POV about Bobby’s death and ghost status from them, and supposedly Bobby was close to both Sam and Dean. And we heard almost nothing from Sam on how he felt about Cas, even though Cas’s actions affected him so directly.
Just a quick interjection here about the fact that Sam tends not to be the rock or center of a storyline. It seems to me that this is mostly true, but there is one notable exception; and that is in the later half of season 5. Sam was the only character left who still maintained any hope at all and was clearly the only one thinking straight. Sam and Cas had become the loose canons that is usually Sam’s role, and even Bobby’s strength was waining. It only lasted a few episodes and we STILL didn’t get much Sam POV even then, but maybe since it was done once (just a little) it can be done again, and better this time.
I’d add 7.1, even though Sam was hallucinating. He was the one who had a hope that Cas could still be reached, and acted on it. People forget that Sam inconspicuously saved the world all over again there, when Dean was resigned to the end of the world, Cas was out of control on monster souls and about to go nuclear, and Bobby didn’t seem to have anything to offer. One of my favorite Sam moments, when he paid forward having been saved after his own mistakes to save Cas and everybody else.
Ugh, Dean and Cas not Sam and Cas….
cd28,
No offense taken. I realize that that people get anxious before the new seasons and have for the most part legit concerns, as well as a lot of baggage from the issues of prior seasons. I think perhaps coming in on my first hiatus has made me more optimistic and excited than others. But at the same time, I was extremely dissatisfied with S7, so to an extent, I get it.
There’s one thing we can agree on for sure, and that is the desire to see more of Sam’s POV. I agree with all criticisms involving how that has been lacking, though I may disagree with reasons why.
[quote]…at least we see [Dean] working through them.[/quote] Re: Dean’s issues – I disagree with this. Dean’s issues haven’t been properly addressed or resolved since S2, IMO. So perhaps we have on the one hand, Sam not getting enough POV on his issues but plenty of resolution (however dissatisfying they may be), and on the other, Dean having plenty of POV on his issues but not ever getting resolution. I can agree on that.
[quote]Healthy or not, I was was annoyed at the way he was portrayed as putting every small hunt above the Dick hunt in season 6. [/quote]
You mean S7, lol. 🙂
Are you referring to “Adventures in Babysitting”?
Because that was about saving a little girl’s father, something I think is completely in character for Sam to do after Bobby’s death (and in general). Also, for most of the season, if you recall, the boys had not course of action against Dick. No plan, nothing. Most of the time was spent waiting for Frank to call with intel. So I think Sam wanted to keep busy (probably to keep his mind off Lucifer) and do good (in light of all the depressing blows they took that season) in the interim, as opposed to obsessively reading articles about Dick (Dean), and I don’t fault him for that or consider it OOC.
[quote]With this group of writers, it’s highly unlikely. We couldn’t even get equal POV about Bobby’s death and ghost status from them, and supposedly Bobby was close to both Sam and Dean. And we heard almost nothing from Sam on how he felt about Cas, even though Cas’s actions affected him so directly.[/quote]
Perhaps the writers will have better motivation and direction under Carver. I’m choosing to believe in them until they actually do something unforgiveable (for me, that was the trenchcoat scene, and that was when I became completely disgusted with S7). Bobby’s S7 storyline was a mess I won’t even step my foot into. But I disagree with your last statement, that we heard almost nothing from Sam on how he felt about Cas. Sam and Cas had a very poignant and emotionally powerful scene in what I believe was the finale, where Sam did get to express himself. It was the highlight of an otherwise dismal episode, IMO.
[quote]
Re: Dean’s issues – I disagree with this. Dean’s issues haven’t been properly addressed or resolved since S2, IMO. So perhaps we have on the one hand, Sam not getting enough POV on his issues but plenty of resolution (however dissatisfying they may be), and on the other, Dean having plenty of POV on his issues but not ever getting resolution. I can agree on that. [/quote]
I can agree on that too. There was no clear resolution.
[quote]
[quote]Healthy or not, I was was annoyed at the way he was portrayed as putting every small hunt above the Dick hunt in season 6. [/quote]
You mean S7, lol. 🙂
Are you referring to “Adventures in Babysitting”?
Because that was about saving a little girl’s father, something I think is completely in character for Sam to do after Bobby’s death (and in general). Also, for most of the season, if you recall, the boys had not course of action against Dick. No plan, nothing. Most of the time was spent waiting for Frank to call with intel. So I think Sam wanted to keep busy (probably to keep his mind off Lucifer) and do good (in light of all the depressing blows they took that season) in the interim, as opposed to obsessively reading articles about Dick (Dean), and I don’t fault him for that or consider it OOC. [/quote]
To be honest, I haven’t rewatched much of season 7 because I didn’t like it, so my memory of it is getting hazy at this point. I remember several scenes when Dean was researching Dick and Sam always seemed to be trying to pull him off it. To me that made no sense. Whether Dean’s research was obsessive or not, that’s what they do. They both should have been spending more time looking for clues to track the Leviathans to get one step ahead of them. Also, in The Girl Next Door, I think Sam initially stumbles on the name Leviathan. It had been a few weeks since their encounter at the hospital. I know Sam had been preoccupied with his Lucifer visions, but when has Sam ever not remembered the name of a monster – especially one so dangerous?
[quote]
[quote]With this group of writers, it’s highly unlikely. We couldn’t even get equal POV about Bobby’s death and ghost status from them, and supposedly Bobby was close to both Sam and Dean. And we heard almost nothing from Sam on how he felt about Cas, even though Cas’s actions affected him so directly.[/quote]
Perhaps the writers will have better motivation and direction under Carver. I’m choosing to believe in them until they actually do something unforgiveable (for me, that was the trenchcoat scene, and that was when I became completely disgusted with S7). Bobby’s S7 storyline was a mess I won’t even step my foot into. But I disagree with your last statement, that we heard almost nothing from Sam on how he felt about Cas. Sam and Cas had a very poignant and emotionally powerful scene in what I believe was the finale, where Sam did get to express himself. It was the highlight of an otherwise dismal episode, IMO.[/quote]
You lost me there. I have no recollection of a poignant scene between Sam and Cas at any time in the season, but maybe this was because I haven’t been rewatching. What I had expected was to hear something from Sam during the period when they thought Cas was dead, saying what Sam felt about everything that had happened – Cas breaking his wall and then dying.
I don’t remember Sam stumbling over the name Bobby did.
The poignant I’m almost positive is in Reading is Fundamental. Where Sam tells him he was done for before Cas fixed him.
cd28,
It’s episode 7.21.
Sam and Cas had a moment – the one where Sam says, “I think I was done for.” Cas says that he had been lost until he took on Sam’s pain. Sam replies that he knew all Cas ever did was try to help, and that he’s grateful.
I realize it may not be what you expected/wanted, but it was there, and while the entire last 5 episodes or so of S7 were so trippy and OOC to me (Cas made me grimace a couple times), Sam shined in that scene.
Regarding Sam always trying to pull Dean out of Dick research – it was, to me, very obvious that he did so because saw it as unhealthy, obsessive, and vengeful, especially considering they had no real leads. I’m not sure what you’re referring to in “Girl Next Door.” I don’t remember that episode being Leviathan-related at all – that was the one where Sam tried to stop his childhood friend/monster Amy from killing again. And I don’t ever recall Sam ever forgetting the name “Leviathan.”
I guess your observation that the Sam/Cas moment was not what I expected/wanted pretty much sums it up. I wanted a more human reaction from Sam about Cas much earlier in the season. Not no mention for 16 episodes and then saintliness and instant forgiveness.
On the Girl next Door, I just pulled up the transcript, and this is what I was talking about. Sam forgot the name for a moment, and that’s so un-Sam like.
“Like that stuff that came out of Cas — those things from Purgatory. Uh…Leviathan.”
I think your interpretation of why Sam tried to pull Dean off of researching Dick is what they were getting at. I just didn’t buy it. They should have been more scared of the Leviathan considering those things were capable of destroying the world. And Sam of all people is usually leading the research effort, often staying up most of the night to do so.
cd28,
I think that with all these things you mention about Sam are the subtle ways the show was demonstrating how broken he was by seeing Lucifer 24/7 – he several times mentioned things like “sometimes I see Lucifer when I’m brushing my teeth.” And I think it was set up from episode 1-2 that he was trying to deal with it and [i]not[/i] talk about it because the weight of it all – dealing with Cas’ death, worrying about his brother – was crushing Dean. Now, granted, I’ll concede that the writers – especially mid-season on, did a piss poor job of connecting the dots and connecting with the audience. But it was there.
I was initially attributing Sam’s distractedness regarding the Leviathans in episode 3 to his Lucifer visions, until we got to the next episode and he was marathon-man.
[quote]I was initially attributing Sam’s distractedness regarding the Leviathans in episode 3 to his Lucifer visions, until we got to the next episode and he was marathon-man.[/quote]
Exactly the problem was none of it was effecting Sam’s daily life or the ability to hunt. It made it harder to swallow after building up what the wall coming down would do it felt like a damp squib in the end .Maybe they should of toned down the dramatic results they built up in season 6 prior to season 7.
[quote][quote]I was initially attributing Sam’s distractedness regarding the Leviathans in episode 3 to his Lucifer visions, until we got to the next episode and he was marathon-man.[/quote]
Exactly the problem was none of it was effecting Sam’s daily life or the ability to hunt. It made it harder to swallow after building up what the wall coming down would do it felt like a damp squib in the end .Maybe they should of toned down the dramatic results they built up in season 6 prior to season 7.[/quote]
Exactly! That’s why they should have said Castiel CRACKED the wall not brought it all the way down. That could have explained why the Wall’s collapse had NO IMPACT on Sam’s life at all until at the very last minute.
[quote]I was referring more to the driving ‘supernatural’ storyarc,[/quote]Or was it the supernatural storyarc driving Sam.Because if Sam was driving the supernatural storyarc then Lilith would have died without Lucifer rising or Ruby would be trust worthy and her blood would be an elixer.I am still flabergasted that the showrunners decided that Cas would be forgiven easily by Sam after what he did and not even highlight (Sam’s forgiving nature) it like they did good qualities of Dean ,Cas…
At the sametime the emotional ,Pov was always Dean’s which it promoted and Sam’s were packed in 20 mins of one episode when Dean’s POV has already been hammered.
As I see it, even when Dean had the mytharc, he also got the POV, which is the WAY it should be. I never understood this idea that the character w/the mytharc couldn’t also have the POV. To me, both characters should have both. It shouldn’t be an either/or situation.
Dean has never been shut out of the show or an episode completely, IMO. Dean is always front and center, giving an opinion or doing something. Sam, on the other hand, has been shut out of episodes or left w/absolutely NOTHING to do and talking to no one. There is one episode in Season 6 where, IIRC, Jared literally has NO dialogue or only 1-2 lines of dialogue. That would never occur w/Jensen.
I’m a bi-bro fan. I don’t love one brother more than the other. That said, I don’t worry about Dean the way I worry about Sam. When I read reports that Jared’s not filming or that Jensen is joking about how much he’s filming while Jared’s doing nothing, I believe them. Sadly, I could totally see the show just writing Sam out. I honestly could. I don’t think it would happen but sadly, I wouldn’t be shocked to learn that it was.
It’s just my opinion, but I don’t feel the writers are interested in Sam. Last year showed how little they were interested in him b/c the plot that was set up for him was a goldmine, a treasure. So much could have been done w/it but so little was even attempted.
Anyway, nothing about this season excites me. It all seems like a retread of stories from past seasons. I’m sick of secrets and lies. Sam has been completely removed from the “supernatural” so we won’t see much of his life during the year away, and I don’t know how I feel about endless FBs of Dean’s adventures in Purgatory w/his sidekicks Castiel and Benny. I don’t know. Season 7 was a bitter, bitter disappointment. I have very low expectations for Season 8, and the released spoilers haven’t changed my opinion.
Hi All. Interjecting again. This is a little beside the point that lala2 is making, but the report of Jensen working and working while Jared lolls around doing nothing is being wildly blown out of proportion. I know that at a recent con Jensen joked about his work load and asked the audience to write in for more Sam scenes. I watched the video, and saw the comment, and it really comes off as toss off comment or good natured griping; something that Jensen as done before and will do again. I don’t feel that we were meant to take it too seriously. Especially considering that Jensen made those statements not two days after coming back to filming after his own 5 DAYS OFF where Jensen lounged around on his boat with Danneel and Clif (via clif’s twitter) while Jared filmed. Guy Bee also mentioned via twitter that he had had several days of filming just Jared with the guest stars, and no Jensen. People here are taking Jensen’s comment as gospel and using it as proof positive that Jared is being neglected and that Sam isn’t involved in the early episodes, but we don’t know that. S.E Hinton (famous writer and huge Supernatural fan) visited the set and then tweeted nervous Sam fans that he was not being neglected as they feared and that he seemed to have a great storyline. Maybe it will be just as it always was; maybe this season Dean will get the bulk of the supernatural mytharc and the POV and Sam will sit in front of the fireplace with Amelia and say and do nothing, but we don’t KNOW that this will happen. And until I see it, I ain’t gonna judge it, and I’m not going to use past events to pre-judge it either.
Thank you for that reminder, E, that does help. I do trust Hinton’s judgement, so hopefully it will be better.
Thanks for saying this. Personally, I find myself building my expectations on what I’ve seen over the past few years, but then I realize that I’m judging Jeremy Carver based on decisions Sera Gamble made, so I try to give him the benefit of the doubt. But then I hear something like reports that Jared is doing little filming, or see promos that feature mostly Dean, and it seems to confirm my fears. My negative side is thinking that it’s mostly the same group of people putting out the show, so it’s unrealistic to expect that much change. As the saying goes, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” I’m not sure how “Fool me three times” goes. 😛
I guess it comes back to we just don’t know what will happen and have to watch at least a few episodes to find out.
I like to keep my expectations very low so I’m not too disappointed. From what I heard, the first 8 episodes are “Sam-lite.” Is that not true?
I haven’t watched any cons or read any spoilers after the initial ones came out about Sam not looking for Dean. I’m not feeling too positive about Season 8. Season 8 will have to be outstanding to wash out the bad taste Season 7 left in my mouth!
But it can happen for me. I pretty much hated Season 5 except for a few episodes and no low expectations for Season 6 but found myself LOVING Season 6. The same thing could happen for me w/Season 8.
[quote]From what I heard, the first 8 episodes are “Sam-lite.” Is that not true?[/quote]
I wonder how reliable these assertions coming through the grapevine are, and if people aren’t getting upset or disappointed over something that was never actually said, intended, or implied. I’ve noticed that a lot of the spoiler-based contentions are based on comments taken out of context or exaggerated into something they were never intended to mean. In any case, it doesn’t make sense to me that 8 whole episodes of a season would be “Sam-lite”. Maybe the first couple, but certainly not that many. On a tangential note, I did personally read from a an actual, reliable spoiler source that Cas would be in exactly 8 episodes this season. The number is the same but the info is not; so maybe something got lost in translation. Again, everything I’ve read suggests that S8 will be pretty balanced.
[quote][quote]From what I heard, the first 8 episodes are “Sam-lite.” Is that not true?[/quote]
In any case, it doesn’t make sense to me that 8 whole episodes of a season would be “Sam-lite”. Maybe the first couple, but certainly not that many. [/quote]
It wouldn’t make sense to me either, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the first 8 episodes are light on Sam.
If they’re splitting the season again, I’m sure the first half w/be about Dean and his time in Purgatory, and the second half will be about the Gates of Hell. They tied Sam’s hands w/the girlfriend angle so there’s not much story to tell there. He may have a role to play in the Gates of Hell arc, or he may just be on the sidelines like he was during the MOA story or during Season 5. Who knows?
[quote]From what I heard, the first 8 episodes are “Sam-lite.” Is that not true? [/quote]
I’m going to try to answer this without saying anything too spoilery, but for those who don’t want to know, stop reading.
It looks like it’s true. We’re supposed to find out what happened in Purgatory in the first half, and as you know, Sam wasn’t in Purgatory. A number of the episode titles seem to relate to Dean’s story. And of course there are the reports that Jared has had a light filming schedule. There’s some Sam too, but the question is, how much?
[quote]And of course there are the reports that Jared has had a light filming schedule. There’s some Sam too, but the question is, how much?[/quote]
See, I would think something like this can be easily proven. He’s either not filming much or he is. I take this statement at face value. I’m not sure why someone would lie about that. I know Jensen was “joking” but I believe there is truth in his joke. Why would Jensen joke about Jared not filming as much as him and asking the fans to write in for more Sam if Jared was filming as much as him? That’s not funny.
Anyway, I’ll guess we’ll find out soon enough!
[quote]the report of Jensen working and working while Jared lolls around doing nothing is being wildly blown out of proportion. I know that at a recent con Jensen joked about his work load and asked the audience to write in for more Sam scenes. I watched the video, and saw the comment, and it really comes off as toss off comment or good natured griping; something that Jensen as done before and will do again. I don’t feel that we were meant to take it too seriously. [/quote]
Thank you, E. That needed to be said.
This might be spoilery, not sure…
Could it be that because ‘Purgatory’ is somewhere out in the wilds and probably needs a lot of extra equipment that they are filming it all together (taking episodes out of order etc) to save time and money. That would require Jensen more for both that and the earth based stuff. Jared would be in a closer location to base (he could do both his flashbacks and the current stuff in similar locations I should think) and not have as much work.
JA did say that they had now finished all the location work for Purgatory.
I don’t know if there’s a rule against mention of actor’s real lives here? Please delete if so, but it occurs to me that they might also have clustered the purgatory stuff and filmed it early because Cas would be in a lot of those scenes, and Misha might have wanted time off for the birth of his child.
E, Amen to that!
The problem is no the showrunner and writers shouldnt worry about pleasing half the fandom either half however the problem is the in the storytelling.
In giving Dean such a major sl like Purgatory that effectively cuts Sam out you have already put Sam at a disadvantage.In the shows history Sam may of had the mytharc but Dean was never cut out in fact he had more in those sl’s than Sam at times and his own sl’s on top. The show hasnt done a sl like this that cuts one of the brothers out .
It was bound to cause some concern with not all but alot of Sam fans . The domestic sl isnt a strong one we saw that with Dean and will it represent a continued fall out from the cage or just we needed to give Sam something?.I am hoping its the former but I wouldnt bet money on it.
Dean has purgatory and readjusting with the earth life now. Cas has Sam’s hell and purgatory,Sam if does not have POV and if it is given to Dean then Sam will be wall paper.
[quote]Maybe because the fandom should be about THE SHOW, and not split between the lead characters? And so the writers and showrunners shouldn’t worry about please “a half of the fandom” or the other?
I can understand the worries. And I’m not sure if I want a good storyline or mytharc for the season if that means not centering it on the brothers, and on BOTH brothers. Because that’s what made and makes the magic of the show.
What I don’t understand is why on earth the writers should worry “for half of the fandom”. They have to worry only about the story: to make a good one, a coherent, exciting, entertaining, moving and thrilling story. About BOTH brothers, but just because that is an advantage for the story itself, not because that would please “half of the fandom”.[/quote]
A-freakin’-men.
This NEEDED to be said, even if it won’t be understood by those who feel the need to bifurcate the brothers’ experiences to such extremes and divide the fandom into ‘us vs. them’ halves.
I understand not being happy with a storyline or character direction, I really do. And I respect those arguments and the desire to see the brothers grow in certain areas. But the claims that one character is getting totally shafted while the other gets all the ‘good’ stuff or the glory, or that TPTB don’t care about a character THEY CREATED and are making money off of, or that they’re trying to shut-out a portion of the fans is just complete and utter nonsense that can’t be supported with any rational evidence or argument.
[quote]Sam is one half of the season and you have sum up what Sam and the Sam fans means to this show. They don’t really want Sam or his fans around. You are right. They aren’t trying to sell this season to the Sam fans at all, because Sam doesn’t matter to them. They’ve dropped everything, because Sam doesn’t matter.
I’m not excited about this, because being told that half the fandom doesn’t mean anything isn’t the best way of starting a season. How am I suppose to get excited for Dean when I know that Sam doesn’t have anything and is going to get thrown under the bus to benefit Dean? That is going to leave so much resentment towards Dean. I really don’t know if I will be able to hold on for Dean’s story.
Heck, even Sera Gamble at her worst gave Dean a hell of a lot more than Jeremy Carver is giving to Sam and Jared. Jensen made a point to say that he was working a lot at the beginning of the sixth season, but at the beginning of the eighth season guess who is making the jokes about working a lot? Jensen. And people think Jeremy Carver is doing so much better than Sera Gamble? Most people liked Sera Gamble episodes, but ended up hating her as showrunner. It looks like the same stupid thing is going to happen with the eighth season and Jeremy Carver. And he has admitted to liking Dean and Castiel better.
So, why in the world would I trust of have any faith in him right now? They aren’t even attempting to show anything for Sam. Not even the promo pictures has Sam by himself or with a different guess star. It’s Sam attached to Dean or right behind Dean standing like some protective dog. It not that they aren’t trying to sell Sam to the show. It’s the fact that they look like they probably hate the fact that they have to do anything for Sam. It’s so painfully clear what Sam means to Mr. Carver and the show. And it sucks, because once upon a time, he wrote “Mystery Spot.” A part of me wishes he had never taken over as showrunner, because at least then I could pretend like someone on the writing staff really like Sam as a character. But now I’m so filled with doubt and upset that I don’t know if I’ll make it to the end of the season.[/quote]
Exactly why I don’t have any faith in Carver. Nothing about the spoilers I’ve seen has been of inerest to me.
I am absolutely stoked for season 8! I just spent the entire weekend (housework and food preparation be damned!) watching season 7 in it’s entirety. And let me tell you, I want more, more, more! The hug, bad-ass Dean, Sam’s beautiful long hair, sans 70’s sideburns, the brotherly interaction, etc., etc., let it begin.
I am very excited about this new season too. I think the story is already off to a great start.
SweetonDean, you even gave me a new one- I hadn’t heard anything about Sam’s dog. Cool!
I’m one of Sam’s biggest fans, and I LOVE the long hair too! Yet, if he doesn’t have a big story this year- I’m okay with that. Sam has had some integral mytharcs over the years, and it hasn’t always been great for the character. Let Dean be the one carrying secrets and making bad decisions for a change!
I think most important is not who has the lion share of the story, but that it be a GOOD story- one that elevates SPN to be one of the truly GREAT shows on TV again. I think a GOOD story could excite all the fandom again, no matter what their personal character preference.
[quote]Sam has had some integral mytharcs over the years, and it hasn’t always been great for the character. Let Dean be the one carrying secrets and making bad decisions for a change![/quote]
Good for the character or not, I was much more interested in watching Sam’s storyline when something was actually happening. I’m fine with Dean having secrets and making bad decisions, but I want Sam to have [i]something[/i] going on that the audience can get excited about.
[quote]I think most important is not who has the lion share of the story, but that it be a GOOD story- one that elevates SPN to be one of the truly GREAT shows on TV again. I think a GOOD story could excite all the fandom again, no matter what their personal character preference.[/quote]
I think a good story in which both brothers have a role and share the POV (some examples, their hunt for their father, their hunt for YED, their attempt to stop the Apocalypse) can unite the fandom. The present day quest storyline might be that storyline. I don’t share your opinion that a major storyline in which one brother is completely excluded will unite the fandom.
[quote]
I think a good story in which both brothers have a role and share the POV (some examples, their hunt for their father, their hunt for YED, their attempt to stop the Apocalypse) can unite the fandom. The present day quest storyline might be that storyline. I don’t share your opinion that a major storyline in which one brother is completely excluded will unite the fandom.[/quote]
You have me confused with someone very different if you think that is my opinion. As I said, I want a *good* story, and as you said, the quest could be that. I certainly hope so, and it will be great to see the brothers on a quest together, working with Kevin. I don’t see where Sam is going to be excluded from that, since he is on this quest, correct? Even if Dean is keeping secrets, right?
As for POV, it has been a good long time since we’ve seen any of Sam’s, so pardon me if I’m not holding my breath to see it shared soon. *HOPEFULLY* if Dean is driving the plot, we MIGHT actually get some POV from Sam. They say miracles still happen.
Sorry, I thought you were talking about the Purgatory storyline, not the quest storyline, when you referred to someone having the lion share of the storyline. I don’t know how up to date you are on spoilers, but trying not to say anything too spoilery here, it looks like a significant chunk of the first half deals with Dean’s time in Purgatory (in flashbacks and in present-day complications). Sam is supposed to have some relationship flashbacks, but reports indicate that Jensen is doing a LOT more filming than Jared. Jensen even complained at a recent con about having too busy a schedule and told fans to write into the show to request more Sam. I noticed in pictures of the Dallas con this past weekend, Jared is growing some serious facial hair again, so I’m guessing this means that he’s in another extended break from filming.
The lack of Sam POV we’ve had in the past couple of seasons is not OK with me. There’s no good reason for it. If this season looks like more of the same, I won’t be watching much because it’s a show I have little interest in.
And see – this is exactly why I DON’T like or read spoilers- because I don’t believe that “reports indicate” any such thing. When I saw that con clip, it didn’t sound like Jensen was complaining.
I agree- the lack of Sam POV has been distressing. BUT we’ve been told time and again that Sam’s POV has been withheld for these “secretive” stories about “what’s happening with Sam”- so that does leave me hopeful that finally the shoe is on the other foot, and I don’t plan to look for ways to validate an idea that Sam is still being screwed.
[quote]And see – this is exactly why I DON’T like or read spoilers- because I don’t believe that “reports indicate” any such thing. When I saw that con clip, it didn’t sound like Jensen was complaining.[/quote]
There have been other comments that Jared has had some long breaks in his filming schedule this season. It’s not just the Jensen comment. Sorry I can’t give more details. It’s been mostly comments I’ve read from people who follow this more closely than I do.
[quote]I agree- the lack of Sam POV has been distressing. BUT we’ve been told time and again that Sam’s POV has been withheld for these “secretive” stories about “what’s happening with Sam”- so that does leave me hopeful that finally the shoe is on the other foot, and I don’t plan to look for ways to validate an idea that Sam is still being screwed.[/quote]
The only seasons that I can think of in which Sam’s POV was withheld because of a big reveal to come later were seasons 4 and the first five or six episodes of season 6. After we learned that Sam was soulless, there were no more reveals to come. All of the other times, the lack of Sam POV didn’t lead anywhere.
I am not holding my breath too.but ,the right thing to do is if Dean is driving the plot then Sam should have the major POV.
The right thing, absolutely, but I’m not holding my breath.
They will not give Sam the major pov he isnt part of Pugatory and they have no history of doing it.
The quest sl well be I assume both brothers so Amelia basically can be the only part where Sam will get the majority pov which clearly wont take up the screen time Purgatory will .
There is one thing about the Amelia storyline that gives me hope. It’s well known that Sam and Dean rarely reveal their deepest fears to each other. The vast majority of Dean’s point of view has come from when he has opened up to Bobby, Cas, Rufus, Ellen, Anna, Young Mary, Young John, Lisa, Ben, or the chick-o-the-week. Part of why we never get any Sam POV is because Sam never talks to anyone else except Dean, but he still doesn’t really confide or reveal much to him. Maybe the character of Amelia will provide the sounding board Sam needs to reveal his insights. I feel like I don’t know Sam any more. He’s had so many changes and so little time to reveal how these changes affect him, that he seems like a stranger. That young, angry, idealistic, complex boy of season’s 1 and 2 is gone, but I don’t know who Sam is now. It’s high time we find out!
I second this. My hope for the Amelia storyline is that we’ll be allowed to gain more Sam insight from her presence in the storyline. While Sam is, to me, by nature secretive just like John, I do feel like that cuts us off from really getting to know his thought processes as thoroughly as we know Dean’s. I further agree that show hasn’t been fair in letting Sam connect with guest stars in the same quantity they have allowed Dean to do so. I’d like Amelia to be his sounding board, so that we might learn more about Sam and his feelings about hunting, Dean, etc. I don’t feel that Sam is a stranger, but I certainly don’t think we know as much about him as we should. So that would be a fantastic thing for Sam, as well as providing him a human storyline in place of the retreaded “What’s wrong with Sam?” stories that have him in a constant state of change. Jared seemed so excited at Comic Con to really be able to dig into who Sam is now, I am hoping for good things on that front.
You are absolutely right E, I really hope to see more of Sam thru Amelia, and hopefully Kevin will be a sounding board for Sam as well. We could sure use it!
[quote]You are absolutely right E, I really hope to see more of Sam thru Amelia, and hopefully Kevin will be a sounding board for Sam as well. We could sure use it![/quote]
I would like that, but when has it ever happened before? The writers are the same so I don’t see it happening now.
The point is, they are writing a character specifically designed to interact with Sam and perhaps no one else. The writers may be the same, but the situation they are setting up is different. And this gives me hope.
While I am to some extent genuinely hopeful and beyond that trying to be hopeful about s8, I’m not as happy about the idea of developing Sam by writing one character designed to interact exclusively with him. I think that way of thinking might just make the tendency to have most of the secondary characters and one-offs default to focusing more on Dean even worse. Sam has never lacked for specific, fenced off areas of character development, like Hallucifer or the coma of 6.22 or the hallucinations of 4.21; where they tend to do better by Dean is in having consistent development in almost every episode, in a wide variety of interactions. I am actually hoping that Amelia will NOT stay sealed off interacting only with Sam, but that she’ll be just one organic part of a general, more networked expansion of Sam’s interactions.
And I see it as their way to write Sam out of entire episodes. Sam decides to visit Amelia. We see them go into the house then go to Dean remembering Purgatory or working on the case of the week, but always emoting. I don’t see Amelia has being anything more than a side story that will pull Sam OUT of the show, not show his POV at all.
[quote]And I see it as their way to write Sam out of entire episodes. Sam decides to visit Amelia. We see them go into the house then go to Dean remembering Purgatory or working on the case of the week, but always emoting. I don’t see Amelia has being anything more than a side story that will pull Sam OUT of the show, not show his POV at all.[/quote]
Exactly! This is a show about the supernatural, not romance.
Unless Amelia is tied to the supernatural in some way, I can’t see the show spending the same amount of time on Sam’s FBs as Dean’s since Sam’s will have absolutely NOTHING to do w/the season. They have effectively cut Sam out of a lot of the show by saying giving him a “normal” life for a year.
They can’t have very many FBs about Sam’s time w/Amelia b/c none of that will have anything to do w/the supernatural or the show, in general.
I don’t want to be argumentative, but as far as I see it, this isn’t and hasn’t been just a show about the supernatural since about the sixth episode of the first season. To me at least, it’s about two guys who hunt the supernatural. I’m much, much more interested in Sam and Dean than whatever monster they’re fighting.
I don’t see why Amelia has to be somehow supernatural or connected with it in some way to be part of the story. If Amelia has a connection to Sam, then it very much has to do with the show, because Sam has very much to do with the show, IMO.
Thing is, we don’t know what they’re going to do with Sam’s story. I don’t know where I heard or read about it, but right now I’m under the impression that they do plan to explore Sam’s story. If that’s not what happens on the show, well shame on me. But I do think there are things that could be explored there. It’s a human story. I get the impression myself that a normal life isn’t something Sam actively seeks out. It seems to me that hitting the dog and meeting Amelia happen quite by chance, which means we still need to know how long it was before the whole thing happened, what Sam was doing until then. A few people have also mentioned that maybe Amelia could be a bit of a sounding board for Sam. Maybe he opened up to her while they were together. We don’t know why they are no longer together.
I can understand how it’s easy to see things like this not happening, and again, while I’m not trying to change anyone’s opinion, I’ve preferred to wait and see, and again, shame on me if none of what I’ve speculated actually happens. I just don’t see why they would purposefully want to write Sam out of anything.
Just a follow up to my previous comment, when I posted it I had’t read posts relating the exact same issue somewhere up thread, so if I’ve repeated anything said there, my apologies. Sometimes keeping track of these comments I tend to get lost in a sea of “who said what and where”
I really hope you are right and this regime means it when they say they will explore Sam’s story. But in season 3 we were going to get Sam’s story in the second half (and this is the one time it wasn’t the writers fault we didn’t) In season six we were supposed to find out what happened to Sam in Hell. In season seven we were supposed to see how Sam reacted to the wall falling. In seasons 4 I expected to see how losing Dean had affected Sam, but Sam got to be the mystery that year. In season 5 I thought we would see how Sam felt about being played his entire life by demons and being shaped to hold the ultimate evil, instead we got how horrible it was for Dean to be the host for Michael. So until I actually SEE Sam getting to talk about how he feels or being more than very pretty wallpaper, I’m not trusting anything.
I’m not trying to be argumentative either, I’m just not optimistic.
I totally understand, percy. I think the difference is, I am optimistic, or trying to be, anyway. And I try not to expect or realy really want anything from a new season. I’ll admit I’ve never been severly disappointed, but I never know if or when that might change.
Here’s hoping they surprise you!
I agree with you in that I’m looking forward to seeing Sam with Amelia and his dog. I think it could be one of those things that doesn’t sound like much at first, but when we see it we’ll love it. Kind of like Sam’s scene with Jody. It had been so long since we saw an emotional Sam, it was just what we needed.
My main concern is that I’m expecting the Purgatory storytelling will be on a totally different level – layers upon layers of story, while the Sam/Amelia story will probably just be told in a handful of scenes. And if the main quest plays out like the Leviathan storyline did last year (70% focus on Dean and about 30% on Sam – of the part that involved Sam and Dean), then Sam will once again have a very light season. I hope I’m wrong. If they write depth to Sam’s past-year story, or give Sam a very prominent role in the quest to make up for the Purgatory/Amelia differences, then I’ll be happy.
From what I heard, Sam doesn’t tell Amelia anything about the supernatural or about his previous life though so I guess I just don’t know how his story will fit in the show. And someone (possibly in this thread) quoted JC on that.
Sam lives normal for a year. I don’t believe he told her anything about his real life or anything that has happened to him, so I’m not sure how she will help develop his character.
What can I say? Sam’s “human” story sounds dull to me. Honestly, it does. I could be wrong. It could be the most interesting story next year, but nothing I’ve read about it is catching my interest.
I love Sam and hate to think I’ll be even more bored w/him than I already am b/c his “story” revolves around a relationship I couldn’t care less about. I love Dean but my eyes kept rolling to the back of my head EACH time he went off to talk to Lisa or to deal w/Lisa. I happened to enjoy M3: TR, but I distinctly remember the drama – for me – coming to an abrupt halt each time the show returned to Dean talking to Lisa/Ben yet again about their relationship. He like ended the relationship on three different occasions. It was ridiculous!
I just don’t have positive memories of how romance is handled on this show so I can’t drum up any positive thoughts about Sam’s “story.” It all just sounds incredibly dull.
Again, I am fully aware that it could all play out much better than it sounds. I can only hope it plays out better.
I’ve said here before that I have a problem with the Sam not telling Amelia the truth thing (I can’t believe Sam would be stupid enough to make that exact mistake again), but it is still possible that they could explore some of his reactions to stuff that’s happened to him in the flashbacks — he could talk about being an addict or a torture victim without revealing the supernatural aspect.
Though, honestly, at the moment my hard-to-maintain spoiler optimism is at low ebb, and I’m inclined to think that those who believe Sam’s storyline is going to be dull, nonsensical character assassination may be, if not fully correct, closer to the truth than the optimists. Maybe I will wake up happier tomorrow.
I admit, I have not read the interview where they say Sam doesn’t tell Amelia the truth. Perhaps it came out at the latest convention? Part of me is hoping this is a misunderstanding, because Sam not telling Amelia is so STUPID and means that he learned nothing from Jess’s death and the tragedy of his both before and after here death. Plus it keeps him being a lying liar who lies and I am truly sick of that.
All the spoilers coming out are turning me more and more away from even wanting to watch this season. There is a new interview with Jensen that again makes it seem like Sam is the complete and total bad guy, while Benny is the good guy and Cas is we don’t know what, but probably a better brother and friend than Sam could ever aspire to be.
I’m tired of being slapped in the face because I like Sam. My pessimism is rising daily. At least we have less than a week to see where this season is going.
oh my god. I just saw that interview with Jensen. They ARE throwing Sam under the bus.
I’m seriously gonna go cry now. My heart just broke into a million pieces. I think I’m done. I really do. I just cant watch Sam be trashed again. And I certainly cant muddle through Carver’s ‘perception.’ of Sam.
Good luck to anyone who still thinks there is hope.
[quote]oh my god. I just saw that interview with Jensen. They ARE throwing Sam under the bus.
I’m seriously gonna go cry now. My heart just broke into a million pieces. I think I’m done. I really do. I just cant watch Sam be trashed again. And I certainly cant muddle through Carver’s ‘perception.’ of Sam.
Good luck to anyone who still thinks there is hope.[/quote]
Unfortunately, amy, that was my reaction, too. Jensen seems really excited to work with Ty and likes the idea of Benny – and oh yes, his brother is still there. 😥
I really hope there’s more to it than that.
What did Jensen say? I’m curious now!
[quote]What did Jensen say? I’m curious now![/quote]
http://www.tvovermind.com/supernatural/supernatural-season-8-jensen-ackles-teasers-purgatory-benny-dean-sam/
(Spoiler warning)
Chants to myself . . . “I will not be bitter. I will not be bitter.”
That interview SUCKED and only succeeded in making me bitter! Haha! I love Dean . . . I really do . . . but I wish the writers liked Sam HALF as much as they liked Dean. I really do. Because if they liked Sam even half as much as Dean, I guarantee he’d been getting a better story.
Can’t say I’m shocked. Ugh . . . it is what it is. I’m over it.
I’m really hoping that Jensen’s been working, and hasn’t heard there are concerns for Sam specifically this season – and therefore he’s concentrated on his part, and introducing “the new guy” to the fandom to generate some excitement there. Maybe he just assumes everyone knows Jared will be there and involved in a major way….. I don’t know…
This week better fly by, ’cause I’m getting less excited about the premier by the hour. I just want the both brothers in the fight! Equally! Come on Carver! Come on Writers!
I am a bi-bro fan . . . . I really am . . . but I can’t help but resent the attention being paid to Dean’s time in Purgatory and his relationship w/Benny – which I’m sure will [u][b]not [/b] [/u] be shrouded in mystery or “told in the background” like w/Sam and Sam/Ruby – when Sam’s S7 arc was so incredibly crappy! His S5 redemption arc also sucked. More time was spent on how Dean felt about being a vessel than what Sam thought about him being the vessel for the ultimate evil or how he felt about his crap choices in S4. In S6, Sam and Bobby never got a good conversation/chat about Bobby’s apprehension around Sam or how Bobby felt about SS.
It was all swept under the rug. Why is everything w/Sam downplayed or swept under the rug? Why does Sam cope w/everything so incredibly well and w/no feeling like an automaton. I’m sure we’ll hear every detail about how Dean feels about Benny and Purgatory and what he did down there and Castiel and the Gates of Hell and everything else, which we should. I’m not saying we shouldn’t but can’t Sam get the same treatment? I know nothing can be done about past seasons, but it doesn’t excite me to think when we finally get Sam’s feelings, it’s about some chick I couldn’t care less about! I’d rather get some thoughts on what happened to him while in Hell or how jogging helped him out last year or how he feels about his brother. We get nada, zip, zero w/Sam [u][b]ALWAYS[/b][/u].
Oh, but this year, he may talk about his feelings for Amelia. Oh goody!!!
I’m beyond frustrated and ticked off! If they aren’t going to develop Sam and use him, then he may as well be gone.
I really liked the interview because what i saw was Dean’s Benny was Sam’s Ruby.Also after the article i saw the comments of Cas fans worrying and moaning about Benny.(I was going all muahahah..in my head).When we were worried about Cas i remember their comments…It was very satisfying.
I doubt Benny will turn out to be Dean’s Ruby. I think people’s issue runs deeper than that with the upcoming sl’s.
[quote]I really liked the interview because what i saw was Dean’s Benny was Sam’s Ruby.[/quote]
Another comparison is Cas and Crowley. Characters who have gotten so caught up in winning the war that they’ve made unholy alliances to do so haven’t fared so well on this show.
Relevant quotes
Sorry, sorry spoilers didn’t work
In other words, Sam screws up again, Dean finds someone more reliable, but can’t ditch Sam because although he is worthless, he’s family.
That’s kind of what I heard, too.
Hoping Jensen didn’t mean it that way, but that’s the jist that I heard, too.
Well, I knew writing Sam as washing his hands of Dean and not even looking for Dean was a huge mistake! It’s completely OOC and only trashes Sam. He was literally shoved under the bus!
Dean will have every right, IMO, to be ticked that Sam didn’t even bother to look for him. Dean didn’t die. He disappeared, and as someone pointed out, in the finale Sam asked Crowley what Crowley did w/Dean so why would Sam suddenly “think” Dean was “dead.”
What do I have to look forward to: Dean’s trust in Sam will be broken AGAIN! The boys have problems AGAIN. Sam is the selfish, horrible brother AGAIN. Oh . . . . fun times!
Don’t the writers understand that the characters are too old for this crap?! If Sam isn’t 30, he’s about to be, which makes Dean 33 or older! If these GROWN adults don’t want to be together . . . . then why shove them together!?
Just separate them and be done w/it already!
[quote]Relevant quotes
Sorry, sorry spoilers didn’t work
In other words, Sam screws up again, Dean finds someone more reliable, but can’t ditch Sam because although he is worthless, he’s family.[/quote]
[quote]Relevant quotes
Sam screws up getting pie lol . What can be said Leopards dont change their spots and the show never will . I had my concerns with Sam’s quick fix and it wouyld of been impossible to of given Sam normal without painting him in some way .
Cutting Sam out of Purgatory has created a different show he cant be Dean’s comrade in arms , he cant share those battles and fight for survival . He can mend a fence great and walk a dog but he cant share those things with Dean. Benny can and to a degree so can Castiel but Sam is odd man out.
I wait to hear what Jared has to say .
I can’t read this thread anymore. The skewed perceptions of [b]everything[/b] painting Sam as some hated, martyred character and only doom and gloom for this season is just ruining my evenings. Honestly, it’s starting to sound like you guys aren’t even fans anymore – if not, then why are you here? If you don’t think it’ll be any good, by all means, don’t watch. I think we should be glad Jensen clicked with this new actor, glad that BOTH actors have expressed excitement about this season, glad that this show is still on the air and has life in it yet, not nitpicking the fact that he didn’t mention Sam enough in the interview. I’ve seen interviews with Jared before where all he talks about is what’s going on with his character – nothing wrong with that.
I think S8 presents a damn good storyline for BOTH brothers, and I will certainly wait until after I’ve watched at least episode 1 to start criticizing things.
I have NO problem w/Jensen talking about Dean.
My problem is with past writing and Sam’s “spoiled” S8 storyarc. I’m happy Jensen likes the actor who plays Benny and has an interesting story this year. I wish I could feel the same about Sam, but from the very little that’s been spoiled, it looks like Sam is just there. He may reminisce about his GF or hook up w/her again, but I haven’t heard much else.
Plus, you must understand that I’m still bitter about the crappy way (IMO) Sam’s S7 storyline was handled. In fact, I hated pretty much all of S7 but I’ve been watching this show since it premiered and kind of want to see it to the end.
This is the ONLY current TV show where I own the DVDs. That’s how much I loved [i]Supernatural[/i]. Right now – I don’t love it too much.
Iewed perceptions of [b]everything[/b] painting Sam as some hated, martyred character and only doom and gloom for this season is just [quote]I can’t read this thread anymore. The skewed perceptions of [b]everything[/b] painting Sam as some hated, martyred character and only doom and gloom for this season is just ruining my evenings. Honestly, it’s starting to sound like you guys aren’t even fans anymore – if not, then why are you here? If you don’t think it’ll be any good, by all means, don’t watch. I think we should be glad Jensen clicked with this new actor, glad that BOTH actors have expressed excitement about this season, glad that this show is should be glad Jensen clicked with this new actor, glad t least episode 1 to start criticizing things.[/quote]
Anon, I’m so on your mind, you speak completely out of my heart. I can’t read those endless complaints and discomforts any longer. I think, all those so-called fans, who always search and find something to grouse about, should finally quit watching the show and let us, who love the show and looking forward to the storys, the writers will bring uns, enjoy it.
Thank you for your clear words.[quote]I can’t read this thread anymore. The skewed perceptions of [b]everything[/b] painting Sam as some hated, martyred character and only doom and gloom for this season is just ruining my evenings. Honestly, it’s starting to sound like you guys aren’t even fans anymore – if not, then why are you here? If you don’t think it’ll be any good, by all means, don’t watch. I think we should be glad Jensen clicked with this new actor, glad that BOTH actors have expressed excitement about this season, glad that this show is still on the air and has life in it yet, not nitpicking the fact that he didn’t mention Sam enough in the interview. I’ve seen interviews with Jared before where all he talks about is what’s going on with his character – nothing wrong with that.
I think S8 presents a damn good storyline for BOTH brothers, and I will certainly wait until after I’ve watched at least episode 1 to start criticizing things.[/quote]
Hi everyone, I kind of feel like I’m becoming the persistant optimist here, but while I didn’t get to watch the actual video, I think the summary seemed to, well ,sum it up, but if there was anything in the interview they didn’t mention there, please let me know. But I didn’t get the impression they they were definitely throwing Sam under the bus here because:
1-Jensen said that Dean was upset because Sam wasn’t doing what Dean wanted him to be doing. That kind of makes Dean look like a bit of an ass. He’s upset because Sam made his own decsions and didn’t do what he wanted? That’s a little unfair if you ask me.
2-I’m guessing everyone is assuming that same comment confirms that Sam didn’t look for Dean, but I’m not seeing it. It could very well be that he just got ticked that Sam wasn’t up here fighting the good fight while he’d been living in a warzone the whole year.
3- This was an interview with Jensen (for like 5 minutes). They asked him about Sam, which he discussed, Cas, which he avoided and what happened in Purgatory with Benny, which I feel are currently the 3 most important things he should be talking about. He’s just generating some excitement for a new character, which I think is fair.
4-at the end of the interview it seemed he made another very explicit comment about how important the brothers’ relationship was, which I’ve noticed he and Jared do quite often, so I don’t think they consider Sam as being just “still there”
5- I got the impression that were intending on interviewing both Jared and Misha too, so maybe we’ll get more insight into Sam and Cas from them.
That’s just the way I see it, so feel free to tell me how full of it I am, if you want 😉
Till may be two days back i was anxious but now i am with you.
re: 1: I don’t see how on earth Sam was supposed to know that he wasn’t doing what Dean wanted. Sure, Dean is all gung ho about hunting NOW, in s8, but in s6 and s7 (and the trend goes back at least to No Exit in s2, it’s not some Gamble era innovation) he thought hunting turned him into a soulless killer and a monster, and he wanted nothing more for a young hunter like Krissy than that she be able to get out and do something else with her life. The only reason he didn’t want that for himself and Sam was because he thought it was too late and there was no escape for them.
The idea of him being mad at Sam for turning his back hunting, as though Sam was supposed to magically discern that Dean was going to come back with a whole new outlook and conform to it a year ahead of time, is ludicrous. Honestly, I don’t think they are managing to make this storyline make sense emotionally from either Sam or Dean’s end. The only way Dean being angry doesn’t make Dean look like a jerk is if Sam didn’t even try to look for Dean, in which case Sam looks like a jerk.
Jensen did also confirm that Sam didn’t know where Dean had been sent and so could not try to find him, which still leaves us with the question of how on earth Sam could fail to guess that purgatory was an option.
There’s a Jared interview up here, btw, almost all about Amelia: http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-on-set-jared-padalecki-talks-sams-new-love-interest/16479
I read the interview. All I can think is that TPTB either don’t know what people who like Sam want or they don’t care, because Lord, nothing in those spoilers makes me want to see Sam’s story.
Yes, Sam couldn’t decide what Dean wanted, so I’m terribly afraid it will all boil down to Sam didn’t look very hard for Dean. Then they will move on as if it doesn’t matter. I hope I’m wrong.
Read the interview with Jared. I’m glad he seems to be enjoying his scenes this year, and I’m glad he expressed some initial reservations – which he seems to have overcome. 🙂
I’d enjoy seeing him act in some “normal relationship” scenes, but it just doesn’t fit my idea of “Supernatural”. We’ll see, I guess.
I don’t have any problem with Jensen discussing his new ‘best bud’, either, and how he’s enjoying his scenes, but…. It was bad when Sam’s ‘best bud’ was demon Ruby, but it seems Bennie is different?? Normally something he’d hunt and kill, but they’ve been working together? Sound familiar? Hey writers, how about something not recycled??
I haven’t given up on it, but like any TV show, if I don’t find it entertaining, I won’t continue watching.
Hoping for more than I’m hearing….
The only way for this to not be recycled is for Dean to be right to work with Benny. Unfortunately that recycles the refrain that Sam is wrong no matter what side he takes. If Sam trusts something he shouldn’t after she has proven herself to be an ally, then she is manipulative and Sam was an arrogant idiot to trust her. If Sam worries that Dean is wrong to trust Benny, then he is an arrogant idiot because he doesn’t believe enough in Dean.
Basically either we get a repeat of Ruby, we get a repeat of Sam is selfish, arrogant and wrong, we are getting a repeat of season one with Sam being wrong about being able to have a normal life. Execution is, of course, everything and great execution could make this all come together, but the concepts I’m hearing aren’t encouraging.
[quote]
Execution is, of course, everything and great execution could make this all come together, but the concepts I’m hearing aren’t encouraging.[/quote]
Exactly. Crossing fingers! (And promising myself that, if there’s a S9 and I’m still watching, I will avoid spoilers like the plague!
Jared’s interview didn’t help matters AFAIC. I can’t get past this idea that Sam just arbitrarily decided that Dean was gone so why waste time looking for him?!?!?!
First, I don’t believe that’s how Sam would react. It’s OOC. And second, it’s simply not a good story and sets up Sam to be “bad.” How can the audience enjoy Sam’s “normal” life or his life w/Amelia when we KNOW Dean was fighting for his life in Purgatory?
It’s just not a good look for Sam, IMO, to write off Dean and go start a new life. I have no problem w/Sam eventually ending his search, but to not search at all bugs me.
It also sucks that all Jared had to talk about was Sam’s relationship w/Amelia. That’s the ONLY thing Sam has going on this year, and that’s just sad.
[quote]Jared’s interview didn’t help matters AFAIC. [/quote]
You have a talent for understatement! (I speak in sympathy, not irony.)
[quote][quote]Jared’s interview didn’t help matters AFAIC. [/quote]
You have a talent for understatement! (I speak in sympathy, not irony.)[/quote]
Ditto. I was hanging on to hope by my fingernails until I watched that video. 😥
I now officially hate all spoilers. 🙁
Yeah . . . I don’t want to violate any board polices by giving my “real” opinion.
I just have to come to accept that Sam is NOT a priority w/these writers. From Jared’s own interview, it seems like he’s being sidelined and pushed to the side.
Sadly, it’s not surprising. Each year, he blends more and more into the background. I’m over it.
I agree with you PaintedWolf. I just posted on thread to discuss this video, but I’m willing to be that their clash on Sam not doing what Dean wanted him to be doing is more about how they’re approaching hunting, rather than Sam not looking for Dean.
In a different part of this thread, I made an argument for how Sam is right to be making his own choices rather than always obeying Dean, so if we get smart, independent Sam back, who thinks differently than Dean and has his own voice, I’m OK with that. Part of the fandom will gripe, but I suspect I’ll be arguing that Sam was right.
That’s a good thought to hold onto. I hope you are right.
I’m with you PaintedWolf. I pretty much saw it as yoy did. I have been trying to stay optimistic but it’s getting harder and harder.
Sam fans are disappointed and anxious and it seems like every interview and comment that has been made, if looked at from their perspective, has something that adds fuel to the fire. Maybe they are right. All I know is I hope they are wrong. I hope this season has things that everybody can enjoy. That is a lot to ask, I know, but I am trying to remain excited for the season and the new characters. It seems like Benny, if he’s a decent vampire, will be thought of as someone who takes away from the brothers relationship. If he turns out to betray them then it’s a recycled story. Can’t win on that one. I for one, would love for the guys to have more frienda and allies. They need some.
A lot of what I’m hearing feels “recycled.” Sam’s story w/Amelia is similar to Dean’s tale w/Lisa or to how S1 Sam was. I thought we had moved past that. Dean’s story w/Benny sounds a lot like Sam’s story w/Ruby. Benny’s a monster but good or a comrade, etc. who may turn out to be evil. Who knows?
I would have loved it if Sam had hunted during the year apart and made more hunter allies. It sucks that he is left w/ONE friend outside of Dean – Amelia – and he may not even have consistent contact w/her.
Possible spoiler warning.
lala2 – what “sucks” for me, is that, according to Jared, Sam “wants out”. I’m wondering how long that lasts, and if they figure out before most of the season is gone how to change his mind. How long do we have to put up with this “I’m not a hunter anymore” kind of attitude from Sam…. The brothers both gripe, yes, but they stay in it for each other. Sounds to me like that’s at issue this season… Sam wants a normal life without hunting. For good. How is that leading into a season 9 or 10???? Obviously that has to change….
Does Jared want out? I’m assuming he doesn’t, but you never know.
In any event, I am beyond tired of the “I don’t want to hunt” story b/c honestly . . . . if Sam doesn’t want to hunt, then Dean should leave him alone. Let Sam do what Sam wants to do. I don’t want to see him “forced” to hunt or to feel “obligated” to hunt. That’s why I was upset to learn they had taken him out of hunting. Why even do that? They are hunters! Leave them as hunters! Why does one always have to go and live normal? Why couldn’t Sam embrace hunting?
I can’t stomach Sam’s indecisiveness about hunting when we just got over Dean’s. I can’t tell you how bored I was w/Dean’s “I hate hunting and life” crap. Honestly, I was over it before S5 ended, so another two seasons of it was two seasons too many to me! And now, they just transferred Dean’s crappy story to Sam. Oh joy!! The story sucked when it was Dean’s so why transfer it to Sam!?!?!
To me, this show only works if [b]BOTH [/b] brothers enjoy hunting and [b]BOTH [/b] want to hunt w/each other. It doesn’t work otherwise b/c the brothers are too old to go through life letting the other make his major life decisions. If Dean can’t trust Sam or hates being around him, then Dean should ditch Sam and go about his business. If Sam doesn’t want to be bothered, then leave him be.
Leave the boys hunters already. I wish they’d think of more creative reasons for angst than these recycled stories!
[quote]In any event, I am beyond tired of the “I don’t want to hunt” story b/c honestly . . . . if Sam doesn’t want to hunt, then Dean should leave him alone. Let Sam do what Sam wants to do. I don’t want to see him “forced” to hunt or to feel “obligated” to hunt. That’s why I was upset to learn they had taken him out of hunting. Why even do that? They are hunters! Leave them as hunters! Why does one always have to go and live normal? Why couldn’t Sam embrace hunting?
I can’t stomach Sam’s indecisiveness about hunting when we just got over Dean’s. I can’t tell you how bored I was w/Dean’s “I hate hunting and life” crap. Honestly, I was over it before S5 ended, so another two seasons of it was two seasons too many to me! And now, they just transferred Dean’s crappy story to Sam. Oh joy!! The story sucked when it was Dean’s so why transfer it to Sam!?!?!
To me, this show only works if BOTH brothers enjoy hunting and BOTH want to hunt w/each other.[/quote]
One of the things I appreciate and understand most about the show is that it has an element of realism. That realism lies in the recognition of what it costs a person to do the kinds of things Sam and Dean do on a daily basis, for years and years. Like soldiers fighting an endless war. And fighting evil like that has consequences. It does something to a person, hardens them, sometimes destroys them. Why couldn’t Sam embrace hunting? Maybe because it’s tore up his life so bad – losing his entire family, all his friends, going to Hell, constantly getting thrown around by evil – yeah, I don’t blame him or Dean for not embracing the life. In fact, if Sam and Dean truly enjoyed hunting, I’d think there’d be something wrong with them. While Dean enjoyed it in the beginning, it was because he had romanticized it because of his dad – and losing his dad really opened his eyes to the cost of the job. Dean’s struggled ever since. Sam had realized it much earlier, which is why he tried to get out and go off to Stanford. But once you’re pulled into that life, it’s near impossible to get out, as the show has demonstrated time and again. The only hunters who have truly enjoyed the job have been the crazy ones, like Gordon. Sam and Dean wanting or wishing they could get out of the life is nothing new. They have struggled at different times in different ways with their job since S1 – it’s really too bad some people find that “boring” – I find it courageous and compelling. Now, the reason S7 sucked in my opinion was because Dean never got to resolve that angst – but it looks like that will happen now via his experience in Purgatory. My understanding of the spoilers also lead me to believe that Sam will be doing similar soul searching through his relationship with Amelia, which is said to be a very “emotionally honest” one. Two people connecting over tragedy. We’ll get to see Sam open up to this woman and after last season, I think that’s awesome.
And just because one brother might not want to hunt anymore, it doesn’t mean that continuing to do so is ‘letting the other make his major life decisions.’ You’re assuming that Dean is somehow going to force Sam to hunt with him – but since when has one brother ever forced the other to do anything they didn’t really want to? They are both independent, free-thinking adults, who may do things they don’t want to do just because it’s right. Sam may be reluctant to get back in the game – I certainly don’t blame him. But as we’ve heard many times, the main story for S8 is the mission to close the gates of Hell forever – even if Sam wants to stop hunting, don’t you think he’d be compelled to go after that goal? I do. My point being – he can want out of the life but still be in it of his own choosing, either because the overall mission is a worthy one, and/or because he’s loyal to his brother. Both are worthy reasons.
And there has always, [i]always[/i] been trust issues between the brothers. That too, is nothing new. It’s part of the drama of the show – how these guys still stay together despite everything that tries to pull them apart. That doesn’t mean that Dean hates being around Sam or vice-versa. When they hunt together, it’s by choice, because they’re brothers and because despite everything, they’re loyal to one another, and they’d hate for one to be hunting alone and have something terrible happen. They have each other’s backs like none other and that’s never going to change.
And btw – I’m pretty sure that if Jared “wanted out” he wouldn’t have signed a contract for season 9 and 10. Hopefully that will ease your mind about that.
I have to agree. If you go back to TV OverMind, and see the Jared interview that was posted after Jensen’s- you can see that there are fully fleshed out reasons and relatable reactions to why Sam wants out of hunting, and why he joins Dean on the quest despite those reasons. As you said, hunting has cost Sam everything- his whole family, including family he’d never known; everything he’s once ever wanted, his whole life basically. So it’s rational to see why, once he’s seen what life without hunting will be like, why he’d want to stay out.
It’s also totally reasonable that, when Dean comes back, that all changes. Sam still wants out, but he knows that his brother has earned his help, plus the quest they are on could be the end of both their hunting careers. So joining up with Dean again, is a win-win.
My point is simple – I am not interested in one brother forcing the other to go hunting. That’s my opinion, and I’m sticking to it. That is not a story I wish to see at this point in the show, and that’s b/c we’ve had that story (with Dean) for the past four years. I’m over that story/angle. I am not interested in Sam hunting w/Dean out of some weird familial obligation when he clearly wants to be elsewhere. That is not an interesting story to me. That makes Sam pathetic.
Yes, this life would be hard and unfulfilling, but this is a tv show. Dean should be an alcoholic, and Sam should be in a mental institution. But that’s not what we’ve seen. At some point, the brothers have to make a choice and choose a path in life. If that path is hunting, then so be it. I, personally, don’t want to hear them whine about how much hunting sucks anymore. Dean has been disillusioned with hunting since S2. It only got more noticeable in S4. By the time DSOTM aired, I was over Dean’s issues. S6 was a reprieve from the constant self-loathing and depression but S7 brought it back in full force. I’m happy it worked for you. It didn’t work for me. I’m just giving my opinion.
Jared’s interview makes it clear – to me – that Sam doesn’t want to be dragged into hunting and resents being there. That’s not the story I wish to see. If that’s the case, then I’m not going to have much sympathy for him. He’s a grown man. If he doesn’t want to hunt, then don’t do it. It’s simple. Tell Dean to get someone else.
It may not bother you, but it bothers me that this is even an issue. That’s my point. If Sam had remained hunting for the year, then there wouldn’t be this contrived angst btw the brothers for the sole purpose of putting them in conflict. There are other, more organic ways to give the characters conflict.
First of all, I’ve NEVER heard Sam “whine about how hunting sucks”- he may have objected to hunting, but not because it’s too hard, or he’s too spoiled. He is perfectly capable, but he objects because, and quite frankly he wouldn’t put it this way but it’s true, he’s already DONE more than his share.
Sorry, Dean’s emotional issues are such a drag to you, I can’t help you there.
If you can’t feel sympathy for Sam except under your rigid parameters of what he’s allowed to do- I don’t even know what to say. But I think this is my cue to leave this discussion for good.
But I will leave you with this food for thought, that I can hardly believe I need to spell out. With Carver saying this quest is the start of a potential 3 year arc, it seems obvious to me that Sam (paralleling Dean’s new found enthusiasm for the hunt), by the end of this season, will have discovered a NEW reason for hunting, something that has *nothing* to do with obligation to his brother, which[b] I’ve[/b] always thought was a crap reason for hunting. Then Sam will finally, for real, be hunting for himself, on his own terms. That’s something I’ll be looking forward to.
Well, I never said Sam had whined about hunting; I said I wasn’t interested in seeing either brother whine about hunting anymore.
In any event, there’s no need to get so upset. It’s just my opinion. We can agree to disagree. No biggie!
I respect the fact that you feel they should be over struggling with their decision to keep hunting, though I disagree. I also understand and agree with your frustration with the ‘self-loathing and depression’ especially of S7. However, I don’t think it makes Sam “weak and pathetic” to hunt with Dean for reasons other than likeing the hunt, nor do I think it “weird” that they feel familial obligations toward one another that supercede their own selfish wants and desires. I guess it’s my opinion that viewing the brothers in such a way is harsh and unsympathetic to the realities of the show (which does, in fact, portray Dean as a functional alcoholic and Sam as nearly crazy – at least in S7 if not earlier – and certainly functionally broken).
I also did not read anything even remotely insinuating that Dean will “force” Sam back into the game, or that Sam will necessarily “resent” being back into hunting once he chooses to go with Dean this season. Those words were not used, and I think things are really being read into these interviews that are not there.
I understand your desire to find “more organic ways to give the characters conflict,” though I think this particularly conflict is plenty organic in the sense that is arises naturally between the brothers because of the lives they live, which is just my opinion. It’s not the story you claim to want to see, but it’s [i]been[/i] the story since S2 of the show, as you mentioned.
Aren’t you sick of this same conflict though?
Maybe, it’s just me, but I feel this same conflict has been playing out for years with NO resolution. This particular conflict is played out, IMO. I wish the brothers were on the same page w/r/t hunting. Jared says Sam’s heart is not into hunting, and that Sam straight up tells Dean and Castiel that he doesn’t want to be there but will fulfill his obligations.
Each year, they claim the brothers’ relationship will get back to basics or be on good footing again, and each year, the writers continue to alienate the brothers w/secrets and lame conflict. Can’t they at least be on the same page when it come to the premise of the show: hunting?
That’s really all I’m saying. I don’t actually care if the brothers fight or have conflict w/each other; I just want it to be over new issues. I also understand that the life is difficult and taxing, so it’s not that I have a problem w/that type of story but those stories just seem to linger w/no resolution. I’m sick of that.
Anyway – that’s all just my opinion! No harm intended to anyone!
[quote]Aren’t you sick of this same conflict though?
[/quote]
Not really, because I see it being played out in different ways each time. Even if some storylines parallel each other, they’re never exactly the same, because the brothers aren’t the same and what they’ve been through isn’t the same.
I think the brothers will be on the same page at some point in S8, after initial reluctance on Sam’s part. I think that is what the spoilers have pointed to with this new “closing the gates of hell” storyline – which noboby seems to be talking about for some reason. I also think a lot of what you are expressing is coming from disappointment and letdown from S7 – which I completely understand. But I personally don’t think the negativity and pessimism is getting anyone anywhere. This is a new season, and we don’t really know how things will play out – why not choose to be positive? (I know, y’all we’ll probably say “because we’ve been positive before and we’ve been let down” – but the point is, you keep coming back, so there must be something good still going on). 🙂
And I totally agree that it’s pointless and frustrating to have a story about how difficult and taxing hunting is with no resolution – but as a posted previously, I think that is what Purgatory and this relationship with Amelia are going to be used as – changing the brothers’ perspectives on things, creating some resolution while simultaneously creating new conflict. I could be wrong, but until I am and things actually start panning out poorly during the season, I won’t complain. I’m not going to dwell on negative things that haven’t even happened yet. I see a lot of potential for both brothers this season, and I like to focus on that.
I don’t worry much about the conflict.I am really curious to see how they have Sam trying to have a normal life . A guy who has given up normal life .They have year to show that.I will reserve my comments till then.
anonymousN-Agree completely. I’m intrigued and want to see what unfolds before I make a judgement.
Fair enough.
Admittedly, I’m still quite bitter over S7. It left distinct bad taste in my mouth. I’m not hopeful about the new season at all, which is why I left this place a few months back. I just stopped posting about Supernatural for a few months because I had nothing positive to contribute. None of the spoilers sounded good, and these articles aren’t helping.
Why am I here? Well, I’ve been watching since the premiere. I want to see how their story ends. Plus, I like discussing the show.
I think a point that’s being forgotten here is Edlund’s comments during ComicCon that this was about giving Sam a reason to hunt again:
“And like Sam actually took time out to try and see again what the world was. If you’re a hero and you’re losing your substance and you can’t fight anymore because you don’t know what you’re fighting for. Or if you’re not connected to the cause in an intimate way. “
In season 7, both Sam and Dean looked like they were just going through the motions. Dean has found his motivation in Purgatory. This apparently is the answer for Sam.
It’s hard to imagine a more intimate way of being connected to the cause than investigating the disappearance of your sole remaining family member. Just saying.
Well, I think that explains why Sam would be motivated to rescue his brother, but not why he would be motivated to put his life on the line each day for strangers.
I have concerns about the way Sam is being written too, and even bigger concerns about the fact that it appears that we’re heading into a third consecutive Sam-lite season, but I want to see the Amelia storyline play out. I love the brother aspect when it’s done well, but I also loved seeing Sam interact with characters other than Dean, whether that’s Sarah, Madison, Eva, Andy, and even Ruby at times. I want Sam’s character fleshed out more, and this storyline sounds like it will do it.
As I said, I have concerns about the excuse that Sam didn’t know where to look, and hope TPTB have something else in mind to be revealed later (mostly because I want a more layered storyline for Sam and I don’t want Sam portrayed as not that bright), but if they don’t, this will pass. It’s a weak plot contrivance, but no weaker than some of the ones they’ve passed off in the past (remember Cas suddenly being able to access Lucifer’s cage and not being able to distinguish between a body and a soul in season 6?). I think this Sam one is being blown way out of proportion by people who want any excuse to hate Sam, and we’re just adding fuel to this fire.
I said what I have to say about this on the link post to the Jared interview in the spoiler section here https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/to-spoil-or-not-to-spoil/17382-jared-padalecki-talks-about-sams-new-supernatural-s8-relationships.html, so I won’t repeat it all here. But I don’t think this is the same kind of writing hole as a plot convenience thing like Cas being able to access the Cage. Yeah, that was a contrivance, and yeah, they hinged big events on it, but it didn’t alter Cas’s or Sam’s characters, not their personalities or their motivations. To me the problem of Sam not looking for Dean is 1. blatant bad writing, on an utterly unforgivable scale: there are a hundred easy ways it could have been avoided, as everyone but the writers seem able to see and 2. really fundamental to who Sam is. I can’t give them a pass on this one. I’m certainly not looking for excuses to hate Sam — he’s one of my favorite characters of all time — but if this is the Sam I’m getting, I’m having a hard time finding reasons to love him. Sure, there are haters in the fandom who will twist anything that happens to make Sam, or Dean, or Cas, or whoever the object of their dislike may be look as bad as possible, but I think in this instance the people who love Sam and Sam and Dean are genuinely struggling.
I’m afraid for me it’s either some huge revelation in the storyline, or a verdict of major failure on this era of the show. Obviously others won’t see it this way and will find a way to live with the problem, or don’t see it as a problem to begin with, but it’s not out of any lack of will to enjoy that I find myself running up against this wall. I’m glad that if it happens it won’t ruin the storyline for you, because I’m sure there will still be good stuff there, it’s just that to me they will have paid too high a price, and a totally unnecessary one at that, for telling that story.
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one. If the message that I was hearing was that Sam didn’t look for Dean because he thought Dean was too bossy, then I would agree with you – that’s not who Sam is. But what I’m hearing is that Sam wanted to find Dean but with Dean disappearing into thin air and having no resources left to help him, Sam had no trail of clues to follow. That, I think, is a plot contrivance, because there’s always a trail on this show. I’m not happy with what they’re saying, but I think the reactions to this part of the spoilers are being blown a little out of proportion.
I guess a Sam who gives up at the first impediment is pretty different from the Sam I know. Sam would at least try for a few months, or he’s not Sam. And I can’t get away from the fact that the no resources thing is simply untrue. I don’t see how it can not sound like a feeble excuse to Dean, because it is a feeble excuse.
And the fact that the writers didn’t take the very small amount of trouble it would have taken to make that plausible — it’s not like it’s a NECESSARY plot point, they had to go a mile out of their way to create the mess: what on earth would they lose by having Sam look for a few months before moving on? they could do it in a three minute montage — when they were making a major shift in a main character’s storyline hinge on it, that doesn’t leave me respecting the writers or eager to see where they go with the show.
There’s also the matter of Kevin. I can understand Sam not going out to rustle up cases to help strangers, but he spent a good chunk of 7.23 rescuing Kevin, then saw him kidnapped before his eyes by a demon Sam knows is capable of torture. Kevin is a high school kid who at that point had virtually no experience of the supernatural; Sam turning his back on Kevin’s plight without a serious effort is to me an unforgivable reflection on his character.
Excellent posts, Etheldred! I am very much in agreement with you.
I understand Sam being tired of hunting. I really do. I understand how difficult it would be for me to locate sources to find Dean. But I can’t wrap my mind around him not even trying. That makes no sense to me and is more than a plot contrivance; it’s outright, IMO, character assassination. I love Sam. I don’t hate him at all. I’m not looking for reasons to complain. The spoilers for him, the direction they chose for him truly puzzles me.
As you said, Sam is resourceful and smart so I’m not buying I had no resources so couldn’t do anything. Sam is smarter than that. Plus, that, to me, is a very callous attitude for Sam to take. It doesn’t feel like the Sam I’ve come to know. I honestly feel the writers went out of their way to portray Sam in this manner b/c it’s not organic or geuine to the character. Sam would look, and there’s no reason they can create that explains why he wouldn’t.
If this is how JC sees Sam then I’m not sure what to expect over the next few seasons.
I’m not sure how you know that Sam didn’t try for a few months. Even after he gave up hunting, he still may have been hitting the books or making calls in his off hours. We also have no idea whether Sam made any effort to find Kevin. I haven’t read an interview that details what Sam did or didn’t try.
Spoiler:
[hide]There are reports of Jared filming with Crowley, so it’s possible Sam did make an attempt to rescue Kevin.[/hide]
The spoilers have been very explicit that what Dean resents is that Sam didn’t [i]look[/i]. If Sam had searched for a few months, I can’t really see Dean taking it that way. And they’ve used the “no one to call” line several times as well, with suggestions that Sam has nowhere to start.
I do hope he made an effort to find Kevin. Kevin’s response in the promo suggests otherwise, but that could indeed change.
All of my comments on this have included the proviso that there may be plot turns I’m not aware of yet. All U can say is that if this goes the way the spoilers suggest it will go, rather than a way there is no evidence for in the spoilers, that will be very bad. If the season goes somewhere different, no one will be more delighted than I! Though in that case I will still think that TPTB massively mismanaged the part where releasing spoilers is supposed to get people excited, not make a large portion of your audience doubt whether they want to watch at all. But that would be aa relatively trivial issue.
(I’m afraid I can’t read your spoiler text; apparently one has to be a registered comm member, and I’m pretty new and unregistered.)
[quote]The spoilers have been very explicit that what Dean resents is that Sam didn’t look. If Sam had searched for a few months, I can’t really see Dean taking it that way. And they’ve used the “no one to call” line several times as well, with suggestions that Sam has nowhere to start. [/quote]
Carver stated the following when asked specifically about whether Sam looked for Dean:
[quote]”I would say that I don’t think anything is done without good reason. One of the things in the show is that, particularly this season, people might think one way about one of the brothers in the beginning. Again, it goes along with perception. I would just ask people to hold on to your hats and understand that we’re going to be exploring each brother, the very complex and difficult things that they’re going through. No one’s hands were completely clean at the end of last season. What you think might be a bad thing — I don’t think you’ll think that as the season goes on. We’re playing with expectations.”[/quote]
This leads to believe two things 1) we simply can’t know how things are going to play out this season based on the spoilers; and 2) Carver has a plan and know what he’s doing, thus, I think we will be pleasantly surprised, and 3) just because Dean may initially think Sam didn’t look for him, doesn’t mean that Sam actually didn’t.
[quote]I will still think that TPTB massively mismanaged the part where releasing spoilers is supposed to get people excited, not make a large portion of your audience doubt whether they want to watch at all.
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I’m excited by the spoilers, and from what I’ve read I would say that many more are excited and hopeful than negative and pessimistic.
While I hope you are right, this sound suspiciously like We’ll see how Sam reacts to Dean upcoming deal in the back half of season 3; or we’ll find out how Sam coped with Dean ‘s death later in season 4; or we’ll see Sam redeem himself in season five; or we’ll find out about Sam’s time in the cage in the back half of season six; or we’ll see Sam deal with the consequences of his wall breaking during season seven.
I’ve been promised that the writers really, really do have a plan that involves Sam for a long time now and it always involves waiting to the back half of the season in question and it always gets relegated to one or two episodes max. We heard that Sam doesn’t look for Dean at Comic Con when only one episode had been shot. We are still hearing the same thing after 8 episodes have been shot. I’m afraid the plan for Sam will show up in episode 22 when the writers realize they never dealt with it. It will be interspersed with Dean dealing with the crisis de jur, Castiel dealing with his issues and Benny doing whatever he’ll be doing.
I’m cynical, but I am going on precedent.
I’m basing my opinion on Jared’s words. He says Sam didn’t have any resources so he went to live a normal life because everyone was gone.
If Sam had searched, I’m not sure why his doing so would be such a secret at this point. Someone at some point could have said, “Sam searched for a few months but came up with nothing and decided to live a normal life.” They can still have Sam make a deal with the Alpha vamp to help Dean or some other secret even if we are to believe he searched for a few months and then gave up!
As far as Jared filming scenes with Mark – well, since Sam is hunting again and they’re dealing with Kevin, those scenes could occur when the boys have reunited!
I agree with you lala2. A lot it of does have the ring of past scenarios. I hope the writers/Carver can put fresh spins on them. I wish Sam had hunted also but he may have had good reasons not to, that we may still find out about. God knows he has been thru so much. I personally would not hold it against Sam. He has made very few decisions that I disagreed with. The questionable ones, I understood he was trying to do what he thought was right. I trust this character to not make hasty, selfish choices. If they write him that way, I would be very disappointed as well!
Sadly, I have no trust or faith in the writers to NOT screw over Sam. That seems to be their favorite pastime.
Just throwing in here that it seems that interview with Jensen came out of a set visit by TV bloggers; they are also interviewing Jared and Misha, so there will be more out later.
That’s funny, I’ve heard the exact opposite, that Sam tells Amelia everything and that he is able to relate to her in a way he was never able to relate to Jess. I guess time will tell as to which rumor is true.
I don’t remember the interview, but it comes from Carver. From my fuzzy memory, it said that just as with Jess, Sam might not be entirely honest about himself and his past, but Carver stressed that there was great [i]emotional[/i] honesty in their relationship. So, like I suggested above, that might mean that Sam will share stuff about being an addict or a torture victim, without revealing the supernatural side.
Since we know Amelia shows up in the current storyline as well as flashbacks, it could also be the case that Sam initially does conceal the truth from her, but later tells her the whole story.
I don’t think Sam has an obligation to tell anyone about all his experiences until he feels ready, but if he doesn’t tell Amelia about the things that directly affect the safety of anyone involved with him, then he’s acting both irresponsibly and very stupidly, and I really hope they don’t go that route.
Oh God! I hope so. But right now, I’m seeing Sam being trashed six ways to Sunday in the spoilers. I don’t know if it’s better to go in hopeful and be disappointed, or to go in defeated and hope to be happily surprised. I do know that I am seriously reconsidering my commitment to give the show a chance for the entire year. I may well DVR and watch after I find out what happens in each episode. I’m just so discouraged.
Go in “defeated.” Ha! That’s what I’m doing.
I’m expecting the absolute worst. That way, if it’s halfway decent, I’ll be pleasantly surprised as you said.
I hope so! Sam has become terribly isolated and shut down, and he’s had to figure as a problem to be solved so often that I think even people who love him, like Dean and Bobby, sometimes find it hard to see him simply as a human being who is going through difficult stuff, rather than as the latest crisis in their lives. It can be very hard to be supportive of someone when you’re terrified for them, and Dean is sometimes too preoccupied with saving Sam to simply be there for him. Amelia can see Sam as a person, rather than a crisis, and maybe that can help remind Sam of that.
[quote]I hope so! Sam has become terribly isolated and shut down, and he’s had to figure as a problem to be solved so often that I think even people who love him, like Dean and Bobby, sometimes find it hard to see him simply as a human being who is going through difficult stuff, rather than as the latest crisis in their lives. It can be very hard to be supportive of someone when you’re terrified for them, and Dean is sometimes too preoccupied with saving Sam to simply be there for him. Amelia can see Sam as a person, rather than a crisis, and maybe that can help remind Sam of that.[/quote]
Exactly, I really hope so too! As someone said above, Sam’s soullessness was always presented as something that Dean had to deal with. I remain hopeful that the switch up in S8 will bring back the feeling that Dean looks at Sam as a brother, and not just a problem to solve.
But Sam needs to reminded of that too. He thinks so little of himself these days, that he’s “the least of them,” when actually he has a lot to be proud of. I’ve wanted, from back in S1, for Sam to really stand up and be his own man, and not just Dean’s lil’ buddy- I think this is an exciting possibility.
What I’d really like to see come out of the whole “normal life” storyline is some real change in how Sam and Dean live their lives, a compromise that deliberately makes room for both of their needs and wants.
If Sam has now reached the point where he wants some aspects of normal simply because he enjoys them and gets something necessary from them, not all wrapped up in rebellion against John and John’s definition of family as family business, and if Dean has reached the point where he wants to hunt because it is what he enjoys, is good at, and finds meaningful, rather than because he was pushed into it too young to have a choice and because he thinks he is too much of a killer to be a family man, then maybe they are at a starting point where they can finally put aside some of their childhood baggage and work things out. Still hunt, but have a home base, have a community beyond hunting, let Sam keep his dog, something that gives a real possibility for structural change.
They were too young and too caught up with their own issues and John’s definitions back when Sam went to Stanford to figure out a way to have different wants and goals but still be in each other’s lives. But they’ve grown and learned a lot. I wish I thought it were possible for the show to not let its format completely dictate their destiny (in which case Dean’s model of on the road, hunting things is always going to win by default) but to find a genuinely new solution. Hell, let Sam go to law school and be a hunter lawyer: benign monsters and hunters could both use some legal help. Maybe if Dean’s role in Sam’s storyline this year is to “reel him back in” to hunting, Sam will also be able to reel Dean back in to the possibilities of not having their lives solely defined by hunting, and by one model of hunting, at that — there’s no law they have to live hunting life like John did, rather than like Bobby or Ellen or Pastor Jim or even Garth, though he annoys me no end.
Hi sweetondean, I love your article.
Glad I’m not the only one who thinks Sam’s hair looks pretty awesome. I’ve been thinking he should cut it the last few seasons, but if the promo photos are anything to go by, then bring it on.
Oh, and 1. Because it’s “Supernaturalâ€. That could’ve been your entire article and I’d still be nodding!
Deleting my comment but it won’t delete. Apologies.
Videos of the recent Dallas con are out if you like that sort of thing, and for people who like to avoid spoilers there are very, very few. J&J were in fine form and seemed very happy and well rested, they teased each other mercilessly, and it was all kinds of cute and funny. Both of their parents were there as well. (awww)
Anyway, I bring this up here because of one thing that came across to me during their panels, and this was how often and how strongly the J’s commented on the theme of brotherhood, both in their personal lives with each other and on the show. It was a running theme with them all weekend, almost like they were making a statement about the show in a backhanded or metaphoric kind of way. Perhaps I am projecting, but that’s how I took it.