sweetondean’s Wrap Up of “Supernatural” 8.02 – “What’s Up, Tiger Mommy?”
I’ve got to say, I Ioved this episode. I really loved it.
I can’t remember the last time “Supernatural” got me so over emotional. I mean, outside of the overtly emotional episodes of course, where I cry like a baby! “What’s Up, Tiger Mommy?” probably was not meant to affect me the way it did. I’m not sure if it was that final scene, the tension leading up to that scene, or all the reveals in Purgatory that gave me so many feels, but I was so emotional at the end of this episode, I felt like I could burst in to tears. I think maybe part of it was, that I feel like some of the work done in this episode is some of the best I’ve seen in the series, or at least that I’ve seen for some time. I’m specifically talking about the Purgatory scenes and how they look and feel. I’m talking about the performances, John Showalter’s direction and the overall tone of those scenes, both visual and dramatic. I felt strangely overwhelmed at the end of this episode. It made me all teary!
I’m not saying it was perfect, but what’s perfect anyway, except maybe Sam’s hair. It was written by Dabb and Loflin and these guys are hit and miss. When they nail it, they nail it, when they don’t; the result is alarmingly out of whack with where the tone of the show and the characters should be. But, I have to say this was one of their better outings. I don’t trust them to write mythology or big character episodes, but they did a solid job on this one. There were a couple of early moments representative of the wobbliness of their work, little patches of awkwardness as they tried to juggle the drama and humour, but as a whole and specifically the back end, this episode blew my socks right off and was the best work they’ve done for a while and certainly the best work they’ve done while expanding the myth-arc of a season. By the end, I was electrified with anticipation and a good amount of dread, as to how these parallel stories are going to play out and how this season will unfold.
In revealing the boy’s stories of their year apart, “What’s Up, Tiger Mommy?” focused on Dean’s flashbacks, but for me, I was struck by Sam’s mysterious behaviour. I feel like I kind of get Dean, kind of get where Dean is coming from. We know he fell in with Benny, we know he hunted, we know he embraced the darkness within him that was unleashed by Alastair in Hell, which in the past, he’s admitted to not entirely disliking and we know he found Cass. The big mystery is how Benny and Dean’s relationship developed, what impact that had on Dean, what happened with Cass and why Dean left Purgatory without his wingman”¦.now known as Hot Wings! I’m also intrigued to see if this house of cards will at some point collapse around Dean’s ears and what the fallout will be. You’ve got to assume it will and I’m nervously waiting for that to happen. But Sam? He’s so mysterioso to me!
First off, he seems strangely accepting of this reinvigorated, yet hard-edged Dean. There were a couple of times I expected him to have a bit of a go at Dean, be Dean’s moral compass, but he didn’t and he wasn’t. He seems to be rolling with the punches a little more than usual. I’m not sure if this is detachment because of his year out and he wants to be somewhere else and is only doing the job out of loyalty to his brother, or whether his experience with Lucifer and his wall break have changed him. Either way, there’s something about it I like. These are two grown men, who are remarkably different and I feel like they should give each other a bit of space sometimes to be whoever they are and not be at each other constantly to meet the other’s personal expectations. It feels to me like a mature step forward to allow each other to breathe and learn, without the bitching at each other, which has gone on in the past, in particular over the last few years. I feel like Sam’s watching and thinking, “Let’s just let Dean find his feet.” Giving his brother the space he needs to reintegrate into the world. In particular I saw this in the interrogation scene. Sam did call out to Dean a couple of times and I’m sure if it looked like the guy was actually about to have his throat slit, he would have been up in a flash, but I think he was letting it go to see where it went and trusting Dean to rein himself in. I thought that was kind of cool. I liked that at the end of the scene he just said, “Come on” with a little gruff in the voice, but he didn’t go “What the hell Dean?” There was no calling Dean out on his behaviour (which was scary), no chastising. I really liked that. I liked it a lot actually. Weird music cue out of that scene though…kind of popped the mood”¦just sayin’.
I also thought part of his reason for giving Dean a bit of a breathing space might be that he recognises that Dean’s current modus operandi is born out of trauma, sort of like his own detachment and he’s hoping that time back in the land of humanity and time with his brother will start to soften Dean’s razor sharp edges. We’ve seen them both go through similar journeys, as they try and cope with their experiences in Hell. I would think this would give them both a bit of patience with each other. I’m also wondering if Sam sees a little of his soulless self in Dean and is sympathetic and understanding because of it. It looks to me like he’s watching, maybe waiting, to see where this new Dean leads. Actually, it’s probably a blessed relief for Sam to have his brother not miserable and drinking the whole time! He was worried about Dean’s alcohol consumption last season, maybe Sam sees this Dean as the lesser of two evils, so to speak. I’d prefer to hang out with this Dean that’s for sure.
I was interested in the reverse exorcism. Sam’s a smart dude, super smart (really good at maths apparently), but somewhere in me, I’m flummoxed by him suddenly pulling this one out of his tight little butt. Saying stuff backwards is hard! When Dean questioned him, obviously also wondering where on earth that came from, Sam just blew it off and said, he simply said the exorcism backwards. Now, this could be that he’d, just never thought of it before or rather that the writers never thought of it before, but my overly suspicious brain instantly equated it to my feelings that there’s a lot more to Sam’s year than he’s currently letting on and that his year is going to be a bigger surprise than whatever happened with Dean and Cass. I mean, why else would it have been brought up in the script? He could have just said it and we could have all moved on, but it was specifically referred to and questioned by Dean, which made me all the more suss. Surely Sam didn’t spend a year, just sitting on the couch watching The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills with his girlfriend! I’m really interested in Sam’s year and what he’s not saying. I’m digging the rebirth of smart Sam too, with the computer jargon last week, the snappy mathematical calculation and reverse exorcism this week. Very cool. I love it when these guys show their smarts. I also loved the scene where Dean pointed out the Demons surrounding Mrs Tran’s house. So old school.
The other thing I thought was interesting about Sam was that when Kevin was trying to talk Dean into going and checking on his mum, Sam wasn’t saying, “Dean we should”, in fact he was barely saying anything at all. He said “He’s got a point, Dean” and when Dean flashed him a look he smirked and went back to his newspaper. He just let that conversation go and only came on board once Dean had succumbed to Kevin’s insistence. I guess these guys are used to the life and death situations by now and these days, look to the bigger picture” – what with them stoping the world from jumping off a cliff every year! Let’s face it, they’ve lost a lot of people and this could definitely leave them hardened. I wasn’t surprised on Dean’s stance, because where Dean is now, his empathy level is pretty low and he’s been forced into becoming more of a big picture guy over the last couple of seasons. Also, he was making sense, everything Dean said made perfect sense, but I was surprised Sam didn’t pipe up. Which once again, makes me wonder what happened to him during his year off that left him so detached. Is it simply the trauma of losing Dean? Is it simply, he just doesn’t want to be there, so he’s letting his brother drive the bus? Or is it something else?
Dean in Purgatory is absolutely terrifying, but I love it. Man, I’m loving Purgatory Dean”¦and not just for the reasons you think! If I remove myself from my passion for the character and all the feels I get when he’s hurting, I’m thrilled by this characterisation and how Jensen is playing him. Like I said earlier, I think the scenes in Purgatory may be some of the best work the show has ever done, both visually and in context to the story being slowly revealed.
The scene where Dean found Cass was breathtaking and may become one of my favourite scenes ever. I loved every aspect of it. How it was shot. Every frame looked like art, like a painting. The opening with Castiel by the river, the terrain and how Dean came in from the side. The wide shot, then the great close-ups of the actors, which gave the scene and the dialogue a more compelling and personal feeling. The camera movements, everything just a little swimmy and off kilter. The swoop from across the river showing how the three were standing. Dean on one side, Cass on the other and Benny in the middle. Benny in between Dean and Cass. Then of course there were the performances. We all know Jensen and Misha are good at what they do, but that scene, that interaction between Dean and Cass was one of their finest moments. Jensen’s Dean literally went through a myriad of emotions in those couple of minutes. Joyous, confident, confused, angry, hurt, accepting, focused, determined. I swear to God, I stopped breathing. If they weren’t taking about Leviathan and monsters and were talking about criminals and murderers, these two would be getting awards up the wazoo for this kind of work. But alas, I went back and watched this scene over and over and over to capture all the nuances.
Misha’s Castiel looked haunted, terrified and trapped and when Dean said he wasn’t leaving without him and Cass simply said, “I understand” I got the distinct impression Cass was sad about that. The look on his face to me, looked like he thought, “I know you won’t leave me, so for your own good, I’m going to have to leave you.” It was a look of sad resignation. That he knew and understood, that he’d have to make that tough decision because his friend was too loyal to. That Cass would take the sacrifice on himself. Go back and look at that expression and the sadness there. It made me instantly feel like the reason Cass didn’t get out with Dean is that he somehow forced Dean to leave without him, took it on himself to stay or die in order for Dean to leave, because he knew Dean wouldn’t leave if Cass wasn’t with him. But then we had the final scene.
I couldn’t help but think of Dean’s words, “He, just let go.” Of course, we have no idea of the context of that scene. We have no idea whether that’s when Dean escaped Purgatory, or whether Angels can’t travel through the portal, or whether Cass’ hand simply slipped Dean’s grasp, or whether this is something to do with Dean’s “Something happened to him down there” line, or whether that scene is totally unrelated to Dean’s exit altogether. We have no clue. But of course, we’re supposed to think, this is the moment Castiel was left behind and it may well be. If this is the case, I pray that Dean did not leave Cass behind on purpose. I’m not sure I could cope and I’m not sure, when the dust settles, Dean could cope. I would really hate that, like, a lot! It would make me too sad. I need the reason to not be directly Dean’s fault, though he obviously feels guilty about it, which makes me go, eeep! But ugh, if he chose Benny over Cass and ugh, if he purposely left Castiel behind, I should also probably tell you, I trimmed that scene out of the episode and went through it frame by frame watching their hands – it made my tummy hurt a little – just sayin’.
Benny. Benny, Benny, Benny. Who got bad vibes when Benny confronted Cass? I sure did. I wondered how long Dean and Benny had been together before they found the Angel, because they already seemed close and Benny seemed downright protective. I didn’t like him questioning Cass and I’m glad Dean jumped to the Angel’s defence. I’m also happy that when Benny suggested they leave, Dean didn’t even hesitate to disregard him. Dean’s affection for Cass is clear. The hug was warm and full of relief and happiness. I’d say their present situation has definitely allowed Dean to let bygones be bygones. Benny was suspicious and wary of Cass from the jump and I’m suspicious and wary of Benny. I’m worried that whatever happened between Castiel and Dean in Purgatory is a direct result of Benny’s interference/manipulation and that Dean, for some reason, rolled with it. I can’t picture that right now, but time will tell. Stupid time always making us wait!
The other Purgatory scene that was breathtaking I touched on earlier. The intercutting between the interrogation scene in the present and Dean’s interrogation of the monster in Purgatory was masterfully done. I loved the shots of Dean speaking directly to the camera from the monster’s point of view. I loved the brutality of this scene and it’s mirroring in the present day. I loved how Dean seemed to lose himself to the moment and the memory. There was a feeling that he actually lost his anchor in our world for a minute. That he may no longer have a handle on his anger. He’s always been explosive, but he’s always been able to manage that. Then again, he didn’t lose control, he just used what he thought was the best tactic to get the information they needed. Dean seems to have taken the path of least resistance when it comes to his feelings towards torture. We know he owned up to enjoying some aspects of it in Hell and to me it looks like he’s embraced those in Purgatory, or rather, gave over to them out of need, accepted them and this part of himself as a necessity. He certainly didn’t look like it was bothering him none. I’m wondering how long it will before these feelings come back and bite him in the ass again. The scene was beautifully crafted both technically and in performance. Jensen is doing some of the best work I’ve ever seen from him.
I’ll be honest. Purgatory Dean makes me uncomfortable and this isn’t from an, I love Dean place, this is just, this character, no matter who he is, makes me uncomfortable. He’s uncomfortable to watch. He’s not what I’m used to. He puts me on edge. But I’m in love with it. He’s so damn interesting.
I liked that Dean was willing to kill Mrs Tran in order to kill Crowley. I’m sorry Mrs Tran, no offense, but that would’ve been fine with me. Crowley is a danger to the whole world. I didn’t see Dean as being unsympathetic. He warned Kevin that his mum was bait and Crowley was just waiting for Kevin to show up. He warned Mrs Tran that coming with them was dangerous. He even tried to ensure they were both protected, by insisting, with a little bit too much glee, that they get the tattoo. He asked Mrs Tran if she was sure when she offered her soul, saying it was a big call. He told both of them all the dangers that they faced if they tagged along and then allowed them to make their own choices. I might also note, Sam seemed to be onboard as well, even though he questioned whether Dean would actually kill Mrs Tran. Personally, if that would have stopped Crowley trying to get her son, I think Mrs Tran would have been onboard with that plan too.
From the outside, or first watch, it may appear ruthless, but I think, in hindsight, it’s more about focus. There’s a big picture at play here and it’s important. The brother’s put their lives on the line every single day. If the people around them are aware of the risks and yet still make the choice to stay and fight, they can’t blame the Winchesters for the outcome. I like that Dean has got to this place and Sam, either through complacency or agreement, seems not very far behind. Of course, it just took one snide, manipulative and well placed comment from Crowley to get Dean thinking that he does indeed toss people aside, bloodied. I liked that Sam tried to support his brother there. It’s not true, I don’t believe Dean does toss people aside, but it is true that many perish in his presence. Nature of the gig though, and I don’t see that as entirely his fault.
For me, this interplay with Dean and Purgatory and the mystery surrounding Sam, as well as the interesting dynamic between the brothers as they hold back the truth and each relearn what it’s like to live this life and live it together, was the meat and potatoes of this episode. It’s what held my interest; it’s what I’ve been tossing around in my head ever since I watched it. The rest of the plot, the characters, no matter how awesome, seemed like the padding to the real story. The brothers.
I like Mrs Tran, she was ballsy and I loved the foreshadowing used in relation to her soul. I thought the scene where she talked to the brothers about what it would be like to lose her soul was great. I really appreciated them sitting and staying with her. I really appreciated their honesty.
Kevin was ok. I like the character, but I have a feeling he’s going to be an, in small doses kind of guy for me. He was an idiot to listen to the master manipulator, Crowley and bug out on the boys, but I also get why he did it. He was scared and he was protecting his mum. He acted out of emotion. It was dumbass, but I understand. I’m assuming he still has an Archangel tethered to him right? I mean they can’t all be dead. We never met them all.
Crowley was fun to watch as usual. I wonder why he doesn’t just kill the brothers though, other than for the obvious reason that we wouldn’t have a show if he did! But really, they are so in his face and so in his way and so annoying, wouldn’t he just snap their necks? I’m starting to get a bit confused by this! I loved that we finally saw his eyes. Red. Seems the King of Hell is just a Crossroads Demon after all huh? He can big-up himself all he likes, but he’s still got those telltale red eyes. I totally dug the red smoke too. I checked with Adam Williams, the “Supernatural” VFX co-ordinator as to where the idea for the red smoke came from and he said it was in the script. Nice touch.
I liked the new Angel, Samandiriel. His dominion is imagination and visualisation. Helping us to transform our own lives, thereby transforming the world around us as a result. Interesting! Of course, it was the kid from “Bugs”, which was neat. I love seeing the kids from early episodes all grow’d up! I would be very happy to see Samandiriel again. I always feel like we should hang on to the Angels that aren’t complete dicks, because they are few and far between! I really liked what he said about Cass”¦having too much heart, it mirrored what Dean said in “Reading Is Fundamental” when talking about the Angels and their inability to care, “Seems like when they try, it just… breaks them apart”.
Ok, I’m going to stop, because this has got crazy long. I could go on and on about this episode and about where Sam and Dean are. I feel like I really only scratched the surface!
I’m loving the feeling I’m getting from the first two episodes of “Supernatural” season 8. I love the classic rock, that Baby is back, that the drama is balanced with plenty of humour, that we have demons and the blood phone and exorcisms and all these throwbacks to the earlier seasons and that the brothers feel front and centre, at least to me. The show is looking damn fine. I think the first two episodes were super strong and I’m totally jazzed, if somewhat terrified, for what lies ahead.
What did you think of the episode? Let me know your favourite bits and what you think went down with Cass in Purgatory.
Thanks for reading!
-sweetondean
Hi
I thank you for your commentary-always enjoy reading your writing.
Thinking back to S8ep1, when Dean handed Sam the demon killing knife, I had a moment and it is slightly off topic. I don’t have time to go back but can you (or anyone) tell me why we don’t see the colt anymore? I can’t remember the last episode it was in (was it the last show of the fifth season?) and lost track of its whereabouts and suddenly I am curious…
Thanks again for your ‘wrap up’!
Am nervous for this Wednesday’s ep… (can’t help remembering Season 7)
The last time we saw the Colt was in Abandon All Hope. Dean shot Lucifer in the head with it. Lucifer shook off the shot announced there were 5 things in existence the Colt can’t kill, and he’s one of them. He then threw Dean around and picked up the Colt. We haven’t seen it since. We don’t know where Lucifer put it or if he destroyed it. I could come back or it could just be gone.
Such a nice review. You’re always so enthusiastic about the show and, I have to say, I’m right there with you on S8. Isn’t it nice to be excited for each new episode again, instead of dreading it and getting more depressed after each episode?
Oh, Jensen. He is shining this season. What a hidden secret we SPN fans have in him. I love Purgatory Dean, but I’m really liking Messed Up Dean, too. I hope when the season ends, that Dean keeps some of his edginess and the smarts he somehow got back.
I’ve been confused about Sam’s reactions to Dean, all of which you’ve pointed out here. I don’t know where’s it’s going, but I’ve questioned it and am willing to see how it plays out with Sam’s character this season. I really like how the brothers are together, but not together, together. I don’t know why, but I am really liking it, mostly because they seem like real individual characters.
I, too, love the Purgatory scenes and agree that this is some of the most beautiful work the production people have done on the show.
No, I don’t think Kevin the prophet has an archangel protecting him anymore. I think that’s gone by the wayside. I mentioned on Elle’s recap that in Reading Is Fundamental, when Dean opened the Word of God, startling things happened. Big storms, Kevin awakened, angels put on alert and dispatched, Kevin controlled by one thing: get the table, and he couldn’t even turn loose of it, and Cas came out of his coma. Here we have Crowley getting a second Word of God and…nothing. They send Alfie to bid on the damned thing? Crowley kidnaps the prophet and no angel of any sort shows up? They send Alfie to ask nicely if the Trans will come with them? It’s all just weird, you know. I don’t know where that is going.
Agree, Kevin and Tiger Mama needs to be in very small doses. Kevin isn’t doing a whole lot for me, and I’m now really ticked off that he blamed Dean for his and his mother’s stupid choices. That’s a carry-over from seasons past and I’d just like for the show to stop doing that now.
Crowley is selling the big bad for me this season, and that’s not because of Mark’s acting. It’s just that his biggest weapon seems to be his snarky remarks and, quite frankly, Dean and he seem to be on the same level of badass. I don’t know if the writers are aware of this or not. There’s just been too many times in these first two episodes where Crowley could have killed the Winchesters and where Dean has had a shot at Crowley and nothing happened. I do like the hatred Dean displays towards Crowley…and it’s been significant…so why isn’t the goal to gank Crowley, along with shutting the Gates of Hell?
Loved all the support actors, except Kevin, who didn’t do much for me, and the God of Greed wasn’t anything. Alfie was adorable, and I’d like to see him again. Beau was charming. Villi was creepy as hell (the reaper from Faith, wasn’t it?), and even the bank clerk played her role well. Dabb & Loflin’s humor doesn’t always work for me, and the auction scene didn’t. I thought it diminished Tiger Mama selling her sole, but that’s a minor nit pick.
Oh, this is too long. Just put me in the loving S8 camp.
Oooo yes, I never thought of that regarding the Prophet and the Archangel, in relation to how he was awoken. Thanks! Good point. I think the show could do with some clarification around that. I’d like to see it mentioned somehow. Thanks for the comment!
I felt that there were more issues with this one than you did, including writing everyone dumb-on-cue so that Crowley could escape. And the editing didn’t help. Of course, the writers needed to get the Trans out of the backseat somehow, so I guess I can live with the way they did so.
But the Purgatory scenes were the standout. I loved every minute of it, and I’m really interested in that story. And that includes Benny. Right now, I’m not getting evil vibes from Benny, and I hope it stays that way. Benny doesn’t have to be evil in order to create conflict and problems for Dean. And you know, that’s exactly what’s going to happen. Personally, I can’t wait to see it.
I’m assuming Samandrial is from the “missing barrack” that Naomi is from? Anyway, I did like the character, and wouldn’t mind him coming back. Although, he really should know better than to dismiss the Winchesters the way he did. Somehow, they always pull off the impossible. And I think that Crowley realizes that, and it’s why he always tries to be at one-remove when going against them. In a weird way, he respects them as adversaries.
On a final note, I have to say that I disagree with Sam being Dean’s conscience and keeping him in line. I think that Dean does that himself. And I’m not saying that Dean is perfect and that he’s never been out of line – because he has. Sam might get on his case over it, but one of the reasons I like Dean is because he lives his code – no matter what. Right now, I think that’s what he’s been pared down to after a year in Purgatory. I don’t think he’s out of control. Messed up? Feral? Dangerous? Big time. But I don’t think he’s out of control. If he were out of control, he wouldn’t have been able to sympathize with Kevin, wouldn’t have warned of the consequences to visiting Mrs Tran, bringing her along, etc. I’d find it interesting, watching Dean lose it, but I’m not sure whether Carver is going to go there. But we’ll see.
Shamangrrl, I agree it is not Sam keeping Dean in line, but rather it is like in The End, when Dean goes back to his brother because he realizes that the two of them “keep each other human”. I think the 2 are moving toward that realization again in this season.
Oh, I agree with you. I wasn’t saying that Sam is Dean’s conscience, sorry, I think I may have written that badly! I meant that often Sam will speak up and act as an alternative view reflective of his own moral stance, trying to get Dean to see another side. Sam does do this, but I didn’t mean to say that I think Dean needs it. I think his moral compass is sound. I simply meant that in this specific episode, there were times that I expected Sam to go the “Hey Dean” route where he didn’t. Dean, though edgy and scary still was in control, even if for a moment there, it looked borderline. However, as I said he never lost control.
Thanks for your comment!
Loved reading what you had to say, you have a very interesting take on the whole brother dynamic. I’m very curious as to where things are going with Sam. As I’ve said in other posts, I don’t think he sat on his beautiful butt for one year. You said it best: Surely Sam didn’t spend a year, just sitting on the couch watching The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills with his girlfriend! Although that would make for a very funny episode! And I’m so loving Dean this season, I always have, but he’s been through Hell AND Purgatory, so you are crazy to even think about messing with him! He makes me so sad though when he thinks that he’s responsible for all these people dying. I want to crawl through the television and give him a huge hug.
As for the beautiful work Serge Ladouceur is doing with the lighting in Purgatory, it’s absolutely breathtaking. He’s like the Picasso of the supernatural world, and I mean that in all sincerity.
It feels like Supernatural of old. Not that I didn’t enjoy the last two seasons, but the two shows we’ve had so far, they had that certain je ne sais quoi to them. And I have a good feeling that the rest of the season will follow suit.
I’ll be a dissenting voice here. Although I do think that there is a lot of potential in the Word of God storyline and Dean’s Purgatory story has started out strongly, I was sick of Sam being a mystery many seasons ago. I am especially annoyed that the last two episodes have gone out of their way to hit us over the head with EVERYONE treats Dean better than Sam. Dean comes back from Purgatory and shows more affection for Benny than he does for Sam. He and Benny act like brothers. Sam is shown to have demonstrated NO concern for Dean during the year that he was missing. In this episode, we see that Castiel’s reason for abandoning Dean was to protect him and Benny is protective personified about Dean. Sam, is removed and fairly unresponsive to Dean.
As someone who has always loved Sam, I’m running out of patience. Too many years of Sam is a bad brother have taken their toll and starting this season with Sam not showing any real concern or even affection for Dean is terribly off putting for me. It’s not that the show isn’t improved and it’s not that it’s bad. It is just moving farther and farther away from the show that I fell in love with. I hope next week starts to turn that around, but I’m getting bad feelings about the entire Sam development this year. My biggest fear is that the writers will decide to reveal the mystery of Sam so late in the season that his character will be even more trashed and there will not be enough episodes devoted to solving the mystery. I’m just envisioning another one and done resolution, like with Cas curing Sam’s hallucinations, which I never expect to hear about again.
I don’t think there is a mystery about Sam, so a late reveal on the mystery is one thing I’m not worried about! I mean, obviously we will find out about the shadowy figure, but I don’t think he spent his year ganking demons with reverse exorcisms, or that there is much more behind his not looking for Dean than the muddle of explanations Carver has already put in place.
I do think we will see Sam grieving for Dean and having a hard time coping without him, though, and I think we have seen him show concern for Dean, though also a lot of general disaffection and wariness. I have some hope for Sam’s storyline in the present, but I think there’s a lot of shoddiness in the establishing of its starting point.
I’m enjoying Benny a lot more than I expected — I’m not usually a big vampire enthusiast. Dean’s PTSD is well done, but I’m eager to see a direction develop from it: is he going to go further towards shutting off humanity to try to recapture the purity of purgatory, or is he going to begin to reconnect with his softer side sooner rather than later? I am a little wary of the show’s tendency to explore Dean’s issues without progressing them, so I hope that now that they’ve done a good job establishing his headspace and sketching where it’s coming from they pick a direction. I’m easy! I enjoy Dean both dark and marshmallowy.
But we shall see. I didn’t like 6.1 and 6.2, and I ended up liking s6 a lot. I loved 7.1 and 7.2, and I ended up disappointed in the season. Now I’m a degree or two above meh on the start of s8, it could really go anywhere down the line.
[quote]
I didn’t like 6.1 and 6.2, and I ended up liking s6 a lot. I loved 7.1 and 7.2, and I ended up disappointed in the season. Now I’m a degree or two above meh on the start of s8, it could really go anywhere down the line.[/quote]
I agree totally with this. I loved Soulless Sam (esp once I knew what was happening) and where that took their characters. Cas going rogue in S6 gave a purpose to his character…. I had high hopes for all 3 of them in S7, but after the first 2 episodes, but it never materialized. The Leviathan just didn’t work for me….. But enough rehashing…
This season, after hearing the spoilers from ComiCon, I started with no real excitement, and haven’t seen much to change my mind yet. I don’t care for Benny at this point, and after crazyCas got really irksome in S7 – it’d be hard to do anything with him, imho. I’m tired of angry/PTSD Dean, just like I hated alcoholic Dean last season…. and I don’t hold out much hope that they’ll write anything interesting for Sam – they’ve dropped the ball with him way to often. Girl/dog is BORING! (And even Osric Chau, in the most recent podcast, said something to the effect that he didn’t think anybody could ever really walk away after seeing what he’s seen, (not a direct quote) so why would the writers think we’d buy Sam doing just that? – not good writing, imho)
I’m seriously hoping for a decent glimpse of SOMETHING to catch my interest in ep 3…. In the meantime, I’ve started rewatching “Sam&Dean-the early years”.
[quote]Girl/dog is BORING! (And even Osric Chau, in the most recent podcast, said something to the effect that he didn’t think anybody could ever really walk away after seeing what he’s seen, (not a direct quote)[b] so why would the writers think we’d buy Sam doing just that?[/b] – not good writing, imho)[/quote]
You’re saying it! I couldn’t agree more.
But I just don’t understand why when we voice our opinion on this matter, people think us as ‘whiny’ even tell us to stop watching the show.
I follow the show from the pilot and follow the progression of the brothers and I think the season finale of S6 said a lot about the core of the show.
Sam forced himself to accept hell memories, even if it’s painful because he couldn’t let Dean alone out there. Then they follow it through with 7.02 When Sam made Dean as his stone number 1 to build his wall from scratch.
How come we get from THAT to this OOC Sam?
[quote]
Sam forced himself to accept hell memories, even if it’s painful because he couldn’t let Dean alone out there. Then they follow it through with 7.02 When Sam made Dean as his stone number 1 to build his wall from scratch.
How come we get from THAT to this OOC Sam?[/quote]
I sure hope the writers intend to answer that, kaj, and soon. I’m not buying “Sam has matured and moved forward with his life” as a satisfactory explanation.
[quote]I do think we will see Sam grieving for Dean and having a hard time coping without him, though,…[/quote]
Will we? We have examples of previous seasons that Sam got almost no dialog and no scene dedicated solely for him. About what he felt when he was being tortured by helucifer. They mostly just glossed it over. Sam said that he was fine in ‘Defending Your Life’ but later on we found out that all was not fine inside Sam’s melon.
Season 6 Sam was soulless, then having a wall. valid reason not to get into Sam’s head.
Season 4 I can only see one episode when he was in the panic room about the extend of Sam’s addiction.
I’ve been burned, badly. It’s only logical and natural that I feel wary.
Let’s just hope that what you said is true.
Sam went into season 7 with the strongest story and IMO he got the weakest storytelling and then the quick fix. Dean has gone into season 8 with the strongest story and is getting the storytelling to match and rightly so.
I dont think given the story with Sam that he will get the storytelling to match of course it will more than likely be better than last year but then again it couldnt be worse but Sam having Amelia unless she turns out to be something she’s not? is not compelling stuff it is love story magazine fanfic . So I think we might learn Sam’s mindset after Dean disappeared and why after Amelia bite his head off he found her attractive but I dont honestly know if there will be anything more going on with Sam that the show isn’t telling us?.
[quote]Sam went into season 7 with the strongest story and IMO he got the weakest storytelling and then the quick fix. Dean has gone into season 8 with the strongest story and is getting the storytelling to match and rightly so.[/quote]For me it was like they put salt on my wounds…
I am resigned to the idea that Sam’s storyline will never be fully fleshed out. The last 2 seasons in particular proved that, but even some of the earlier ones indicated the trend. Cool ideas, never fully realized….
I’m also resigned to the idea that the majority of SPN fans are ok with that, so long as there is a decent plot for the show as a whole (not being anti-Dean, here, but any decent plot [i]at the moment[/i] would tend to mean mostly Dean, imo… I mean, even if the main plot goes to Cas or Benny, that indicates major involvement for Dean, rather than Sam. So far, only Kevin is uncommited to either brother.)
I seriously hope that we get a significant hint in ep3 that there is more to Sam’s last year and current complacency than they are showing us, though, and that they take his character somewhere interesting this season! Not holding out much hope, but fingers crossed!
i just want BOTH brothers – EQUALLY impacted, EQUALLY involved. Neither one being wallpaper for the other.
I agree with both of your comments here st50. I just don’t see any investment in telling Sam’s story from the writers. That really saddens me. If the story is that Sam and Dean are better without each other, then just tear off the bandage and separate them. If not, this OOC behavior of Sam needs explanation very quickly for me to be satisfied. I am, BTW, expecting to be dissatisfied.
[quote]
I just don’t see any investment in telling Sam’s story from the writers. That really saddens me. If the story is that Sam and Dean are better without each other, then just tear off the bandage and separate them. If not, this OOC behavior of Sam needs explanation very quickly for me to be satisfied. I am, BTW, expecting to be dissatisfied.[/quote]
You and me both. 🙁
[quote]If the story is that Sam and Dean are better without each other, then just tear off the bandage and separate them.[/quote]
Then, why would there be supernatural at all? Supernatural is about Sam and Dean. Just like Jensen said there are three lead characters in the story, Sam, Dean and Sam[i]and[/i]Dean. These three characters must/has equal footing. Loosing Sam[i]and[/i]Dean will be the end of supernatural.
The core of the show is about two brothers who love each other and have the familial bond that is so strong they even win against Hell and Heaven.
I keep remembering what Edlund said about this season’s idea. The idea is to separate the brothers and seeing them each on their own because they spend too much time being around each other, being Sam[i]and[/i]Dean that there is not enough time to explore them individually.
Now, the question is. There should be a purpose behind this, right? Will they be alright being on their own? Will the world be alright if Sam and Dean are separated?
If it turns out that things are okay to have Sam … and … Dean separated and living their own life, there will be no use in continuing supernatural.
Let’s just make another chickflik Drama starring Sam/Amelia and a dog at 8 PM. Then, have Dean running around the scene with Vamp!Benny in a horror flick at 9 PM.
[quote]If not, this OOC behavior of Sam needs explanation very quickly for me to be satisfied. I am, BTW, expecting to be dissatisfied.[/quote]
As a writer once told me that in writing a good mystery story i must show the reader what I have in my mind, describing the images in my head unto the paper, NOT just telling the readers that. For examples, There is a fact that Dean loves Pie and thinks Pie is the most delicious thing ever.
People would not believe me if I just told the reader that without writing a scene in describing how Pie affect Dean’s taste bud, what’s Dean reaction when eating it.
Hell is a scary place but people would not believe me If i don’t show them a scene describing how scary hell is.
The writer said it’s lazy and bad writing. And I agree with her.
Bottom line is I agree that there should be an explanation here. And I hope It’s soon. Talking about the balance of both characters story.
[quote]My biggest fear is that the writers will decide to reveal the mystery of Sam so late in the season that his character will be even more trashed and there will not be enough episodes devoted to solving the mystery.[/quote]Mine too and to add insult to injury when it is time to reveal Dean’s purgatory time unlike Sam being alone in s04 ,They are going steadily from the beginning of the season
I agree with you that Jensen is killing it this season! He is just so good at the subtleties and nuances it takes to portray this version of Dean.
I love Dean Winchester! I don’t think Dean is being mean or a d**k, I think, as you said, he’s focused. Dean tried to talk Mrs. Tran from coming with them, Dean wanted her somewhere safe, but she wouldn’t agree.
I also must comment on Dean taking his tie off, I think I’ve watched that gif tens of times. That was just so perfect for that scene and so hot! 🙂
Sorry Shelby, but I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the notion of Dean’s behavior. I do find him mean and a dick and completely lacking in compassion. But I think that this is the point. We SHOULD be shocked by his behavior and want it to change. Dean has to learn how to find his humanity again.
Mrs. Tran made the best decision that she could when she went with the Winchesters, and it was the correct decision. Without her they would never have found out where the tablet even was. Without her Crowley would have won the auction and gotten the tablet and Kevin both. She paid a heavy price, but she made the right call. It troubles me that Dean can’t see that, especially considering that he was on the other side of that fence in season 1 when the Yellow Eyed Demon was in his father. Currently, he can only see the end goal, he reminds me a little of Season 1 & 2 Sam or like John in his single mindedness and his lack of perspective when it comes to other people. I agree, Jensen has knocked it out of the park these past two episodes, but I don’t think that we are supposed to forgive all his transgressions, understand them yes, give them a free pass? No.
Dean’s behavior is supposed to be a stark departure from who he was in S1, and I do think it’s a very understandable change. Besides what he’s been through, Dean has come to see that many of his choices in S1-S2 put family first but, again in his view, ultimately made everything worse. John was saved in the finale of S1, but because of that ultimately went to hell. Dean put Sam first, but ultimately sent himself to hell and Sam down a road that ultimately sent him to hell. I think both Sam and Dean have become hardened to the point where their past choices seem well-meaning but naive and more destructive than helpful in the long run. Now, given a chance to act again, they’re not saving vessels–they’re killing demons fast and without remorse.
As for Kevin’s mother, why is she different than the gardener, the mailman, or Eunice? She’s not, except in what she means to Kevin. In terms of saving people, humanity probably would have been better served if Crowley had died in Mrs. Tran and the gates had been closed. That’s not comforting and not the choice Dean nor Sam would make if their loved one was possessede, but let’s face it, both Winchesters are magnificent hypocrites. But yes, she would have been better off if she’d listened to Dean and Sam and stayed in a safe location. She chose not to and to face the consequences of that desicion. We can praise her for that selflessness, but at the same time Kevin and she have to realize that in a war, the casualties can very well be you if you put yourself in harm’s way.
Now, do I wish that Sam and Dean had more compassion for the possessed hosts? Absolutely. Do I wish that they’d shown Kevin a kinder tone of voice? Sure, but would that really have changed their message? Probably not. Do I think, like I said, that we’re supposed to not approve of some of the choices Dean is making? Yes, though I think name-calling like dick and mean is a bit simplistic in terms of what we know about what Dean is going through at the moment. I’d agree that Dean needs to recover his humanity, just as Sam needs to lose his detachment and find his interest in saving people again.
I think it’s also too simplistic to say Dean has no compassion whatsoever–I think he does, but he doesn’t see where it serves them or their cause here. I think he should, but I can see where he doesn’t. That’s why I find this arc interesting, and I do look forward to Dean reintegrating with the real world so to speak. I hope Sam steps up and plays a larger role in that rediscovery. One can but hope.
[quote] I think both Sam and Dean have become hardened to the point where their past choices seem well-meaning but naive and more destructive than helpful in the long run. Now, given a chance to act again, they’re not saving vessels–they’re killing demons fast and without remorse.
As for Kevin’s mother, why is she different than the gardener, the mailman, or Eunice? She’s not, except in what she means to Kevin. In terms of saving people, humanity probably would have been better served if Crowley had died in Mrs. Tran and the gates had been closed. That’s not comforting and not the choice Dean nor Sam would make if their loved one was possessede, but let’s face it, both Winchesters are magnificent hypocrites. But yes, she would have been better off if she’d listened to Dean and Sam and stayed in a safe location. She chose not to and to face the consequences of that desicion. We can praise her for that selflessness, but at the same time Kevin and she have to realize that in a war, the casualties can very well be you if you put yourself in harm’s way.
Now, do I wish that Sam and Dean had more compassion for the possessed hosts? Absolutely. Do I wish that they’d shown Kevin a kinder tone of voice? Sure, but would that really have changed their message? Probably not. Do I think, like I said, that we’re supposed to not approve of some of the choices Dean is making? Yes, though I think name-calling like dick and mean is a bit simplistic in terms of what we know about what Dean is going through at the moment. I’d agree that Dean needs to recover his humanity, just as Sam needs to lose his detachment and find his interest in saving people again.
I think it’s also too simplistic to say Dean has no compassion whatsoever–I think he does, but he doesn’t see where it serves them or their cause here. I think he should, but I can see where he doesn’t. That’s why I find this arc interesting, and I do look forward to Dean reintegrating with the real world so to speak. I hope Sam steps up and plays a larger role in that rediscovery. One can but hope.[/quote]
Completely agree. 🙂
Well Sam killed innocent people in this episode too (and he was living a normal life and not in purgatory). Am not blaming Sam here but just saying its the nature of their job. Would u say Sam is a dick too for killing many innocents along the years? Killing innocent people in the larger interest of the world has become the norm in the last few seasons. I agree it shd change but name calling (mean or dick) Dean or Sam is not justified. But yes I agree with u that its wrong and they need to try harder to achieve their goals with the least amount of damage. Not take the path of least resistance.
[quote]Sorry Shelby, but I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the notion of Dean’s behavior. I do find him mean and a dick and completely lacking in compassion. But I think that this is the point. We SHOULD be shocked by his behavior and want it to change. Dean has to learn how to find his humanity again. Mrs. Tran made the best decision that she could when she went with the Winchesters, and it was the correct decision. Without her they would never have found out where the tablet even was. Without her Crowley would have won the auction and gotten the tablet and Kevin both. She paid a heavy price, but she made the right call. It troubles me that Dean can’t see that, especially considering that he was on the other side of that fence in season 1 when the Yellow Eyed Demon was in his father. Currently, he can only see the end goal, he reminds me a little of Season 1 & 2 Sam or like John in his single mindedness and his lack of perspective when it comes to other people. I agree, Jensen has knocked it out of the park these past two episodes, but I don’t think that we are supposed to forgive all his transgressions, understand them yes, give them a free pass? No.[/quote]Completely agree
Sorry, E, but I will have to respectfully disagree with you because I do not find Dean to be a dick and lacking in compassion, anymore than Sam is a dick and lacking in compassion. Sam put a demon back in an innocent woman’s body so that she could be killed. I don’t think that’s any different than what Dean did or threatened to do.
I don’t think I said anywhere that I was giving Dean a free pass, and Sam doesn’t get one either. I just said that I don’t think he was being a meanie. I agree with sweetondean:
[quote]From the outside, or first watch, it may appear ruthless, but I think, in hindsight, it’s more about focus. There’s a big picture at play here and it’s important. The brother’s put their lives on the line every single day. If the people around them are aware of the risks and yet still make the choice to stay and fight, they can’t blame the Winchesters for the outcome.[/quote]
At least we agree on Jensen knocking it out of the park! 🙂
[quote]Sam put a demon back in an innocent woman’s body so that she could be killed.[/quote]This makes it seem like Sam wanted to kill Eunice so he trapped the Demon back in her.So no i disagree.
If Dean’s reaction to Sam when asked about trying to kill Crowley in Mrs Tran and her being Collateral damage is to be followed then Dean seems to have lost compassion.
[quote]This makes it seem like Sam wanted to kill Eunice so he trapped the Demon back in her.[/quote]
But, that is what Sam did. He wanted to trap the demon back in Eunice’s body so that the demon could be killed and wouldn’t warn Crowley, that’s why he did the reverse exorcism. They said that on the show.
[quote]He wanted to trap the demon back in Eunice’s body so that the demon could be killed and wouldn’t warn Crowley,[/quote]Yes to this
[quote]Sam put a demon back in an innocent woman’s body so that she could be killed.[/quote]No to this.He did not want to kill Eunice he wanted to kill the demon.Your original comment stated he wanted to kill Eunice that is what i disagreed to.If he wanted to kill Eunice there was no need of reverse exorcism.
What I originally said was:
[quote]Sam put a demon back in an innocent woman’s body so that she could be killed.[/quote]
I never said he wanted to kill Eunice and just Eunice, I said he put the demon back in Eunice’s body so that she could be killed. Putting the demon back in the body meant that both Eunice and the demon would be killed. So, I stand by my comment that Sam put a demon back in an innocent woman’s body so that she could be killed.
when you say that the intent of Sam’s action becomes that he wanted to kill Eunice and that is not so. so i will stand by my differing stance.Because for me Sam put a demon back in an innocent woman’s body so that the demon could be killed.
[quote]Sam put a demon back in an innocent woman’s body so that the demon could be killed.[/quote]
Which killed the innocent woman.
So, this is not any different than what Dean almost did with Mrs. Tran. Collateral damage by both Winchesters.
But is lot different from what you said what Sam did.[quote]Which killed the innocent woman.[/quote]Yes not the other way around.
Problem is not Dean killing Mrs Tran but his callous attitude to killing Mrs Tran..
[quote]But is lot different from what you said what Sam did.[quote]
No, I disagree. Again, here’s what I said originally:
[quote]Sam put a demon back in an innocent woman’s body so that she could be killed.[/quote]
I never said that Sam wanted to kill Eunice and just Eunice. Eunice and the demon were a part of each other and they both had to die for the demon to die.
I think it’s just a matter of semantics. But, I still stand by comment. I think we’ve reached an impasse and at this point, it’s a matter of “agree to disagree.”
[quote][quote]Which killed the innocent woman.[/quote]Yes not the other way around.[/quote]
I’m sorry, I don’t understand. Of course, Sam didn’t want the demon to survive and the woman to die. I never said or implied that. Killing the demon meant killing the innocent woman and Sam knew that.
[quote]Problem is not Dean killing Mrs Tran but his callous attitude to killing Mrs Tran..[/quote]
Again, I don’t see Sam being any different. Sam didn’t hesitate and didn’t seem to have any remorse for killing Eunice because of the demon, so that was pretty callous.
You’re obviously trying to defend Sam and say what he did was better than Dean, all I’m saying is that neither one was better than the other one. I won’t get into a Sam vs. Dean thing.
I didn’t do that first quote right. Here’s what it’s supposed to look like:
[quote]But is lot different from what you said what Sam did.[/quote]
No, I disagree. Again, here’s what I said originally:
[quote]Sam put a demon back in an innocent woman’s body so that she could be killed[/quote]
OK you two, put your knives and guns back in the toy box and play nice. You are beating a dead horse and blowing up the chat room. Just agree to disagree that there was a lack of communication since it is hard to really explain yourself in a blog. Its just a matter of opinion and interpretation of the scene anyway and we are all entitled to our own.
[quote]OK you two, put your knives and guns back in the toy box and play nice. You are beating a dead horse and blowing up the chat room. Just agree to disagree that there was a lack of communication since it is hard to really explain yourself in a blog. Its just a matter of opinion and interpretation of the scene anyway and we are all entitled to our own.[/quote]
I agree that it’s time to “agree to disagree.” 🙂
[quote]Sam didn’t hesitate and didn’t seem to have any remorse for killing Eunice because of the demon, so that was pretty callous.[/quote]There was no separate conversation regarding Sam’s killing Eunice as the focus …so i can guess but i can never be sure.[quote]You’re obviously trying to defend Sam and say what he did was better than Dean, all I’m saying is that neither one was better than the other one. I won’t get into a Sam vs. Dean thing.[/quote]Thank you very much for telling me what i am obviously trying to say.For me the actions were same but Dean was callous.Did i any where Say Dean was more callous or Sam was less callous .I was not comparing..I just said Dean was callous..You were the one with if Dean is a dick and not compassionate then Sam is too.not me.So all the DeanVs Sam BS is on you.
[quote]I won’t get into a Sam vs. Dean thing.[/quote]Guess what.Me too.
Okay, that’s enough. This is an open forum, but this sounds like a case of reading way too much into what another person has said.
Remember one of our rules is “Don’t put words into other people’s mouths” and I see that here. I do not approve of aggressive responses. This discourages people from posting and that’s against everything we are about here. Please keep the tempers and personal attacks out of the discussion and keep it civil.
This discussion has hit an “agree to disagree” point and this is the end of it. Please move onto another topic. Thank you.
I was just irked because i was not Sam vs Dean …but i am sorry for going against what the site stands for.
Thank you Alice!!!!! I tried to calm this down earlier but they just aren’t willing to give. I was wishing that I had not asked for follow-up comments because my email is blowing up and makes it difficult when working from home to keep on task with all these negative comments popping up. Its a SHOW people and yes we all love “our boys” but give the show a chance. They haven’t left us down yet, well at least they haven’t left me down. Have a great day everyone!
Hi Shelby, I hope that I didn’t come across as ‘name calling’ that’s not what I intended at all. Sorry if you were offended. I was just using the words that you used in your original post to illustrate a point. I love Dean’s character, and I find his current story line really interesting, actually one of the best that they have ever come up with for him possibly.
I do find his behavior hard to take at the moment, although I understand it completely, and I guess I did take your original post as giving Dean a free pass, when that isn’t what you intended. I have been reading many posts that are doing just that, giving Dean a free pass on his behavior while heaping all the blame for his actions onto other characters, Kevin and his mom in particular.
You are correct about Sam’s behavior as well. They both have grown very callus of meatsuits as of late. It’s no good to just say “well, she was probably dead anyway” and then feel nothing more about it. I think Kevin’s naive perspective may be good for both Sam and Dean. Perhaps Deans compassion isn’t completely gone, he did seem to feel pretty bad after reading Kevin’s note, so perhaps the old, emo, marshmallow Dean is still in there somewhere. I hope we don’t have to wait until episode 22 to see him again. It’s his heart that makes him such a great character and at the moment I am having trouble seeing it.
You actually reminded me of the one reason WHY Mrs. Tran was different from the other meat suits in this episode and at other times. In all the other cases, they had no way of knowing how long the victims had been possessed. Kevin had been missing for a year. Presumably Crowley set up surveillance as soon as Kevin went missing. Demons seem to like to settle into a meat suit and then keep it. It has also been established that demons ride their meat suits hard and usually kill the body after a while. So there was a pretty good chance that the people watching Mrs. Tran were already beyond help. But Sam and Dean KNEW that Mrs. Tran had only been possessed for a few minutes at best. Crowley hadn’t had time to hurt her and she was not injured in any way. So they would be definitely killing a person who could be saved.
In the end, the fandom still has conniptions about Sam killing the nurse, even though she was still possessed and the demon was only allowing the real person out or the demon was pretending to let the real person out to guilt Sam for some reason. The thing is, as long as that gets held against Sam, I think we have to hold it against both boys when they kill a host they know is still alive. In many cases they may not know and so can justify their actions. In this case I’m not so sure.
I’m also thinking it’s too bad nobody ever worked with Sam to see if there was any way for drinking the demon blood could have been non-addictive. Ruby wanted him addicted, but boy would being able to drive out demons and leave the hosts alive, be a great thing.
That’s funny Percysowner, cause I was thinking the exact same thing regarding the demon blood thing. All of a sudden, exorcizing the demons back to hell while saving the host is looking pretty good by comparison to what they are doing now.
Hi, Percysowner
I think it’s safe to say that Sam and Dean are going a long way from when Sam was still hesitating in killing John because Azazel was in him. Although if he did that, it would end their nightmare (probably).
I think by working in the job so long they have to force themselves to see people as canon fodder. Like the gardener, the postman, Eunice. But once they get in close with the people’s personality beyond the demonic possession, things will become more complicated.
I remember in Repo Man, Jeffry beg Dean to save him, he cried thus it touched the compassion part inside the brothers so, they banished the demon and drove Jeffry to hospital.
It’s not the matter of how long they’ve been possessed. IMO. The real Meg masters died in Bobby’s living room and it was a shock to both brothers that there was an innocent (supposed to be) girl still alive inside the body.
If they get too close to the victim, (emotionally) it’ll be dangerous and it will cost their own live.
The show did not show us the name of the postman, or the gardener. They did not show us Eunice’s real personality because the show wanted us to view them as not that important and only present in the story as someone who soon to be killed. Yet, they gave Mrs. Tran personality because they want us to feel compassion towards her.
I believe even the gardener and postman have families. Who knows maybe the gardeners daughter is sick and needs medicine that her father should bring home.
[quote]I’m also thinking it’s too bad nobody ever worked with Sam to see if there was any way for drinking the demon blood could have been non-addictive. Ruby wanted him addicted, but boy would being able to drive out demons and leave the hosts alive, be a great thing.[/quote]
I would prefer Sam’s power could develop without the blood drinking. Andy’s power was awesome and he had practiced it well, yet, Andy is not evil (unlike Ava). I don’t remember if Andy ever drink any demon blood other than Azazel’s.
Azazel said in In The Begining that his blood is like Ovaltine. It makes Sam stronger. IMO Azazel not just choose the special kids in random. He choose the parents and their bloodline. Children who are already special on their own. The Blood just enhance what’s already there.
Ruby said “You don’t need the demon blood, Sam. You have it all along. You don’t need wings to fly.”
There’s nothing wrong to have psychic abilities like Pamela or Missouri. Without the taint of demon blood addiction.
How can protecting your Mum be stupid.For Kevin it is not our favourite characters Sam and Dean who are his priorities but the mother who gave birth to him and same way also Mrs Tran. So Dean did not act even a little broken up and if someone tried to kill my mother i don’t think i would all trusting him. Also it is Dean blaming himself .Crowley blamed the Winchesters not Dean alone.If Dean wants to take blame that is all on Dean.
I don’t know about liking and disliking Benny but he is turning out to interesting.Purgatory storyline looks very fertile.Now the next episode we will See how fertile Sam’s story is.
I believe I said, though I think that Kevin legging it on his own was not a smart decision I understood it as he was protecting his mother.
Then what should kevin have done follow Dean and Sam till his mother is killed by Dean the next time.
[quote][quote]Then what should kevin have done follow Dean and Sam till his mother is killed by Dean the next time.[/quote][/quote]
No he should wait till Crowley kills her. U make it seem as if Dean’s intention is to kill Mrs.Tran. It was Crowley he tried to kill. Maybe next time if they use better anti-possession stuff she can be fine. U guys just seem to want to blame Dean whatever he does 🙂 Cut the guy some slack. He is afterall trying to close hell gates and save the world.
[quote]U guys just seem to want to blame Dean whatever he does :)[/quote]Just returning the favour i guess :). It is not like Mrs Tran is completely safe with Dean,is she.Dean blames himself i don’t have to do any more.[quote]He is afterall trying to close hell gates and save the world.[/quote]He or They….
I was seeing the situation from Kevin’s perspective i don’t have any way of knowing it is the right one as i can’t see the future…
[quote]Just returning the favour i guess :)[/quote]
Not sure I understand this. People who blamed Kevin also explained how they could see his side of things but consider its still a bad move cos Crowley will try to hunt him down. So tit for tat is not acceptable here. U are simple blaming Dean without seeing his side of things.
[quote] It is not like Mrs Tran is completely safe with Dean,is she.Dean blames himself i don’t have to do any more.[/quote]
She’s not safe anymore either way. She has to take part of the blame cos she insisted on going along. If she has better anti possession material I dont see why she would be unsafe with the brothers. U lost me there. Its not like Mrs.Tran is Dean’s traget. Also I dont think Dean blames himself. He was just reflecting on that statement. Doesnt mean its true or he agrees.
[quote]He or They….[/quote]
When its a bad thing its He (Dean alone) but when its saving the world its They is it. Nice 🙂 Anyway I agree that’s a slip on my part. I should have said they cos Sam (and to some extent Kevin) is in it too (at least for now). Next week will throw more light on whether Sam wants to continue this hunting life.
[quote]I was seeing the situation from Kevin’s perspective i don’t have any way of knowing it is the right one as i can’t see the future…[/quote]
Fair enough. I guess I was seeing it from Dean’s. Lets agree to disagree and move on. Peace out 🙂
Btw… my prev post got sent in as Anonymous as it took the prev persons credentials (I sent it from my friends comp and her name/mail id was saved). Sorry for the confusion.
[quote]Not sure I understand this. People who blamed Kevin also explained how they could see his side of things but consider its still a bad move cos Crowley will try to hunt him down. So tit for tat is not acceptable here. U are simple blaming Dean without seeing his side of things.[/quote]I was not talking about Kevin:).Sam was blamed before now i am returning the favour.
[quote]She’s not safe anymore either way.[/quote]So what does it matter what Kevin Does?[quote]She has to take part of the blame cos she insisted on going along.[/quote]Exactly part of the blame the other other part was Dean’s attitude…and any other parts are also ok.[quote]Also I dont think Dean blames himself.[/quote]Sorry.Its a reflex reaction from before whatever happens Dean blames himself and sheds a tear or not.[quote]When its a bad thing its He (Dean alone) but when its saving the world its They is it. Nice 🙂 [/quote]I don’t think like this.But if you want to think so, nice:).(Actually when apocalypse started it was said to be all Sam’s fault and when the apocalypse ended everyone wanted part of that:) glory and the only one praised individually was Dean. Nice i know).[quote]Lets agree to disagree and move on.[/quote]Ok
Episode 8.2 was outstanding; you capture it well. A few nitpicks, however. Not important to anyone but a prof. editor like me, so I plead for patience:
Reign = the time a “leader” is at the top; i.e., “Queen Elizabeth II’s reign has been very long and successful.”
Rein = cords used to control something, usually a horse; i.e., “She pulled the reins tight to keep the horse from bolting.”
Wrong spelling gone viral: It is spelled “Samandriel,” not “Samandiriel.” Please.
Actually, there appear to be two spellings for the Angel Samandiriel, the most common being the one I used. This is not unusual in Angelic names. I did do my research. I’ve not seen the script, so I don’t know the exact spelling used by the show.
As for reign/rein…well excuse me…that in a 3500 word piece I missed one error.
Samandriel is the correct spelling; the guy who writes on SPN for Buddy TV was the first to misspell it in one of the first write-ups on GR8. The misspelling then went viral, but oddly the pronunciation is correctly used — SAM-AN-DREE-EL — when his name is spoken.
Best way to catch homonyms, incorrect usage, and so on, is to read the text. Spellcheck doesn’t catch incorrect usages like to/too/tutu; rein/reign/rain; site/sight, and so on since they are all correct terms.
You never know if something you’ve written will grab somebody’s attention outside this site and then use it as a compliment to you; therefore, it’s best to check your work carefully. Trust me; I know! I respect your work enough to comment on its quality; if I didn’t care about it, I wouldn’t bother.
I didn’t read any review before I wrote mine. The spelling I used, I got from various Angel sites after researching the name, not from BuddyTV.
I don’t believe any of these sites have any connection to “Supernatural”.
Here is one of the links:
http://www.llewellyn.com/encyclopedia/term/Samandiriel
This spelling is also used in the Encyclopedia of Angels on page 171.
Believe me when I say, I read, read and read my pieces over and over before I post them. I do not rely on spell check or grammar check as most of the time it is incorrect especially as I’m Australian and therefore choose to use correct English spelling as opposed to the American spelling most spell checkers utilise. Once in a while, one slips through. Happens to the best of us.
Thanks for your comment, I appreciate your feedback.
So loved your commentary. I feel much the same way. Love and understand this Dean. Even though it is scary to think how far they will take him to the dark side, before hopefully bringing him back to humanity. Agree with some posts that I think Sam will have something to do with that.
Benny/Dean is intriguing, but screams ending badly somehow. I especially like that we are seeing Purgatory and what happened, since we didn’t really get to see anything of actual Hell for Dean or Sam. It’s incredible to look at and you definitely get the ‘feel’ of how bad it was there. And the interrogation scene was riveting! Positively genius.
As for Sam. From the get go of ep 1 I have been suspicious of what is up with him. I too feel there is so much more going on there than meets the eye. I like this Sam too, but there is just something there, or missing. Not sure. My friend and I watched it together(via over the phone) and she is a huge Sam girl. We both picked up on some of the oddities. The reverse exorcism for sure set off bells for me as a clue to something. But what? And I have also picked up on how Sam is reacting to Dean. Much less condemnation for his actions or comments. He seems to just be taking it all in. Not like he is being passive, but like he is watching and calculating it all, but underneath understanding as well. Just so many things. And for someone out of the hunt for a year, he doesn’t seem to have any qualms about demon killing himself. Nor does he seem rusty at it.
I do feel the boys are showing a maturity that I like. As a mother of 3 boys, now all in their 20’s, I can already see how their relationships are changing. Pathetic that sometimes I think of SPN when they tell me something. (They think I’m a super nerd!) At one point 2 of them were very antagonistic. They are older, wiser and have a better respect for each others idiosyncrasies, as I think Dean and Sam do as well. Different does not mean you can’t love somebody or work with them.
Super excited to see how it all plays out. Love reading your reviews and can’t wait until Wednesday!
Such a nice comment. I have three brothers and as they grew into adulthood, they too became very accepting of each other’s idiosyncrasies and all the teenmale competitiveness just faded away. Thanks for reminding me of that.
I agree with you so much here. It’s like you are my thoughts, but they have merged with the perfect words to sum up everything, also the bits I consciously haven’t defined yet. I am so pleased. The way you always describe the reason behind thinking and/or believing something, really making me love this!
This season shows so much promise, I am so excited how and when we get to see what has happened, and what consequences that will have down the road.
The one thing I’m a bit curious about, (that you have’t covered that is) is wether or not Dean will pay some kind of price for letting Benny ride out with him. Like if it has left some kind of mark on/in him, or something he might of have provoked with doing that. And the inevitable day he is going to pay for it. But who knows?
I am probably just a teensy bit too nervous when it comes to Dean and his thing of having the wholde world on his shoulders, and almost drown in guilt from it. The show has never poked that issue with a stick before.*
So, jusyt wanted to let you know that I really adore you now! Thank you so much for your thoughts, and for writing them.
*Obiously lying.
I dont mind ‘maturity’ as long has it isnt used to hide a multitude of sins in the writing. I dont really know why we would need a what is going with Sam/ mystery infused sl with Sam? esp where we are now with him. Although to be fair I dont know where we are with him since 7.17, but I am not sure that is the sl they are selling with him but basing his story on a promise that seems to of been fitted to the story of Sam not looking for Dean and a attempt to give Sam some sort of season 1 identity .
I think to have a “what is going on with Sam/mystery infused sl” is absolutely required IF (and it’s a big IF) Sam is doing something shady, or dangerous in relation to either getting Dean out of Purgatory, or in securing the God Tablets… this is what I think is going on with him on some level. I just can’t figure out who he is working for or with; The Angels and Castiel? Benny and the Alpha Vamp? Crowley? And as of yet unnamed player? I can see him working with any of these people if they offered him the one thing that he couldn’t refuse, which was Dean’s safe return.
I agree, I am very afraid they will make Dean the direct cause of Cas being left behind. I still don’t trust the judgment of the writers. In a season where Sam doesn’t look for Dean, then it’s entirely possible they don’t get how much we fans would hate that direction…
I can’t wait for more of Sam’s story this week. They absolutely need to fill in his POV. They are writing Sam as mysterious in motive, and it’s just coming off as him being indifferent to Dean – a really lousy impression to have. I hope it’s explained soon, and that it isn’t real indifference. If it is, I hope Benny’s introduction shakes him out of his brotherly complacency.
As for Dean and the Purgatory story, and Benny, I could not be happier! I don’t often respond to characters because I am jaded, but Jensen’s portrayal of Dean this year, is giving me chills! Now they need to up the other parts of the story. If D&L write better this year, maybe the others will up their game [looking at you Glass.] I have more hope than I’ve had in 2 years.
Thanks for the great write up – I always love an episode more after I’ve read your review. I too wonder why Crowley doesn’t just kill Sam and Dean ( apart from the obvious) – some explanation would be nice. I really like the new mature Sam – stands up for himself , no whining soft voiced protests – just says what he thinks without apology. And Jensen is awesome as always.
[quote]…my overly suspicious brain instantly equated it to my feelings that there’s a lot more to Sam’s year than he’s currently letting on and that his year is going to be a bigger surprise than whatever happened with Dean and Cass.[/quote]
This is what I’m most intrigued by at this point. I’m loving Purgatory, ptsd Dean, etc., but I am most interested right now in what is making Sam tick — his almost zen-like calm, his detachment as you say. And who was that watching him as he left Amelia’s house in 8.01? There’s definitely something going on that we don’t know about.
As for Benny — I’m taking bets on who ends up killing him — Sam or Dean? Cas is a long shot since we don’t know for sure that he gets out of Purgatory. I like the idea of Benny being a kind of Gordon Walker figure, the hunter that Dean relates too and Sam sees as leading Dean too far off the reservation. If Benny saw Cas as a rival, wait until he meets Sam. I can see him trying to come between Dean and Sam just as Gordon tried to do. It would be great to see Dean kill him because he becomes a threat to Sam.
Anyway, great review. You’ve given me a lot to think about. Now I want to go re-watch it.
Hi Sweetondean, as always ,love your thoughts on this episode. It is great how you can be upbeat and yet still critical when necessary.
This second episode was pretty damn good IMO. The ongoing feeling that there is still so much under the surface is addictive to me. I can’t wait for it all to unfold. I hope it doesn’t disappoint. I am braced for both brothers to take some hits. I also have confidence that they will be shown to be the incredible human beings that they are.
I understand the emotional response you are having. This season has more emotional resonance for me, than the last one. I think JC is doing many things right to bring back some of the heart the show seemed light on. He is not going to please everybody. But he has started out rip-roaringly. Unless things take a terrible turn, I am onboard.
Hello sweetondean. As always, your commentary is a joy to read and is a mirror of what I was thinking and feeling. S8 has had me on the edge of my seat and pinning for more at the end of every episode and we’ve only had 2 of those. I love Jensen’s performance in the purgatory flashbacks. He is just one brilliant actor. He has a way of making one feel everything that he is going through. He is a little scary this season but taking into consideration where he was and what all he had to deal with, it is entirely justifiable.
Sam is being taken in a totally unexpected direction but that is what this is all about. I too am very curious to see more of his past year and where his head was at. I was concerned in his lack of searching for Dean all year when in the past he went bazerko trying to get him back. Granted, he didn’t have anything to go on but to not even make an attempt was a little disheartening.
I can see this being the best season yet, but then our actors have grown and improved their skills and the writing and all aspects of putting this show together has just excelled. Kudos to the entire cast and crew on keeping us locked to the tv on Wednesday nights.
I love Benny and that is a strange thing to be saying about a vampire but he helped get our Dean out of purgatory so how can one hate him at this time. I can hardly wait to see E5 when he will finally meet Sam. Can’t imagine that is going to go well on Sam’s part since Dean was so against Sam having a relationship with Ruby in S4 and now it seems that is okay for Dean in S8.
Very interesting review, SweetonDean. I really like what you said about Sam, although I don’t think it’s a mysterious as some, and I also think it’s a “mature step forward” for the two of them as brothers.
So now I’ll get into what I don’t agree with. First, I don’t think Kevin was stupid to take off.
Kevin knows a thing or two about demons, he’s survived on his own for a year without the Winchesters, and from what he’s seen of Dean in particular- he probably thinks Crowley was telling the truth. The onus is on Dean and Sam now to prove Crowley wrong.
Second, Castiel and tangentially Benny. I don’t get a bad feeling from Benny, Benny seems to be the only person making sense in Purgatory. Will he betray Dean later- who knows? But for now, he seems to have Dean’s back better than Cas does.
I don’t get how Cas, with his ridiculous story, seems to get away with nearly anything. I hope Cas is hiding something too, because this “I put you in danger being near, so I took off” makes me gag. It sounds like dialogue from Edward to Bella in Twilight. First of all, Cas is in danger from Levis, but Dean isn’t? Not hardly. Has Cas truly never heard of sticking together, strength in numbers? How about a single word to Dean about what he was doing? How about a single word of apology that Dean risked life and limb for who knows how long, trying to find the angel?
As much as it pains me to compare Cas and Sam, I do have bring this up, because I don’t get it.
Sam had no idea where Dean was, and no way to get to Dean or help him out even if he did know- and every one is mad at Sam.
Cas knows *exactly* where Dean is, exactly how much danger he is in, and can easily get to him, if he wanted, but he takes off with no explanation and doesn’t lift a finger to help Dean- yet everyone thinks he’s mister wonderful.
I guess I don’t get how just being an “angel” means everything is okey-dokey.
[quote]So now I’ll get into what I don’t agree with. First, I don’t think Kevin was stupid to take off. Kevin knows a thing or two about demons, he’s survived on his own for a year without the Winchesters, and from what he’s seen of Dean in particular- he probably thinks Crowley was telling the truth. The onus is on Dean and Sam now to prove Crowley wrong. Second, Castiel and tangentially Benny. I don’t get a bad feeling from Benny, Benny seems to be the only person making sense in Purgatory. Will he betray Dean later- who knows? But for now, he seems to have Dean’s back better than Cas does. I don’t get how Cas, with his ridiculous story, seems to get away with nearly anything. I hope Cas is hiding something too, because this “I put you in danger being near, so I took off” makes me gag. It sounds like dialogue from Edward to Bella in Twilight. First of all, Cas is in danger from Levis, but Dean isn’t? Not hardly. Has Cas truly never heard of sticking together, strength in numbers? How about a single word to Dean about what he was doing? How about a single word of apology that Dean risked life and limb for who knows how long, trying to find the angel? As much as it pains me to compare Cas and Sam, I do have bring this up, because I don’t get it. Sam had no idea where Dean was, and no way to get to Dean or help him out even if he did know- and every one is mad at Sam. Cas knows *exactly* where Dean is, exactly how much danger he is in, and can easily get to him, if he wanted, but he takes off with no explanation and doesn’t lift a finger to help Dean- yet everyone thinks he’s mister wonderful. I guess I don’t get how just being an “angel” means everything is okey-dokey.[/quote]I agree.Being mad at Sam seems to be a fun way to pass time
Just saying, I’ve seen very few comments on this site where anyone is mad at Sam!!! This is a very Sam friendly site. Most of the comments are along the lines of-why is Sam being written this way? It makes Sam look so bad! Why is his character being ruined? Mostly coming from worried Sam fans. I think many of us want to see what is going to transpire. I, for one, have no harsh judgement for either brother at this point. I just don’t see people passing their time being mad at Sam here. Am I missing something?
Hi Leah D, In general this site is a calm and rational island in what sometimes seems like a storm of Sam hate. Go to just about any other Supernatural site on the internet and you will find the most awful comments directed toward not only the character, but to the actor as well. It’s disheartening. That is why I only come here to comment.
Hi E, I’ve visited some of those sites myself. I do realize there is hate out there for both characters, in fact all characters. I never have gone back. Those are not fans of the show, just fans of spreading hate and sitting back to enjoy the trouble they stir up. I feel that those fans are a fringe element and aren’t representative of this site or most fans. Just answering the generalization, pointing out it rarely happens here. Thanks. Carry on 🙂
Thanks. This is one of the only sites that I find rational, and so is the only site I comment on. I visit other sites (I am a terrible spoiler hound) and come across unpleasantness more often than I would like. Everyone here makes such insightful comments and they don’t (in general) let their passions for a particular character run away with them. It’s refreshing. 🙂
There is hate out there for Dean as well, but I think it’s disingenuous to pretend that the hate is evenly distributed. Cas and Sam both get a lot more hate than Dean, and at the moment the Sam-hate is by far the most prominent. Take a look at the comments on this TV Guide article, for instance:
http://www.tvguide.com/News/Supernatural-Season8-Wincest-Sam-Dean-Winchester-1054745.aspx?rss=breakingnews
(Yes, dragging wincest shipping into a general discussion of Sam and Dean’s relationship was a terrible move on the part of the article’s author, but that’s beside the current point.)
That kind of mainstream media forum is far more likely to come to the attention of TPTB than amateur Spn sites, however excellent. That’s probably the way that the publicity people who keep a finger on the pulse of fandom think that fans see Sam. Is it really surprising, knowing that, that we are getting two Cascentric episodes and two Bennycentric episodes within the first nine episodes of the season, while Sam POV remains elusive and Sam’s story remains opaque and pretty unsympathetic?
That’s a sad comment on TPTB, etheldred, but you’re probably right….
Bringing Wincest into a mainstream article? TVGuide – or at very least that author – just lost a reader with that unnecessary nonsense. Some fans may enjoy the shipping – with any of the characters -, but it is not what the show is about, imho.
Hi Etheldred, Not sure if you were responding to my comment or not. But if so, I don’t think I was being disingenous as I was relating my admittedly limited experience on some other sites. When the comments got too rancorous I usually left. The biggest targets were Cas, Sam, Bobby, Dean. I didn’t tally them up. I just moved on until I found this site. I did not pretend anything. I just assumed that those attitudes were the exception rather than the rule. You may have more experience than I do in visiting websites so perhaps you are correct in the amount of Sam hate. I was just thinking the original comment might be including this site and to that, I disagreed. Thanks.
Oh no .I was agreeing with Rick D and i still do .He/She is saying that comparing Sam and Cas …Even though their actions are similar…that part…[quote]I’ve seen very few comments on this site where anyone is mad at Sam!!! [/quote]I have seen more than few ..from my lurking days.
Oh for Pete’s sake! I’m not talking about Sam, my point was about CASS!
My point was- why is it a bad thing to not look for Dean (no matter WHO does it), but if you are an Angel, it’s okay to leave Dean in danger, all by himself, with no word or explanation, and then actively avoid him? And then not a word of sorry when Dean busts his hump to find said Angel?
But when you compared his situation with Sam’s it stopped only about Cas. I said in my comment also which part specifically i was referring to and in general i agreed to your comment ..But frankly i don’t care if you have to get pete into the conversation :).[quote](no matter WHO does it)[/quote]Sorry to say again i agree
Sorry, my reply was not in reply to you, but to all the comments before it, going on about Sam. I’m glad you agree.
P.S. yes, I’m a dude.
Glad that was cleared.I was really confused:)
[quote]As much as it pains me to compare Cas and Sam, I do have bring this up, because I don’t get it.
Sam had no idea where Dean was, and no way to get to Dean or help him out even if he did know- and every one is mad at Sam.
Cas knows *exactly* where Dean is, exactly how much danger he is in, and can easily get to him, if he wanted, but he takes off with no explanation and doesn’t lift a finger to help Dean- yet everyone thinks he’s mister wonderful.
I guess I don’t get how just being an “angel” means everything is okey-dokey.[/quote]
Maybe becos Cas has too much heart 😉 just kidding. I think Cas fans are happy becos even if what he did was stupid (leaving Dean alone) his intentions were good. He genuinely (I hope) thought he was saving Dean from the Leviathans.
And btw… I dont think e’one is mad at Sam. At least am not. Its just a few vocal folks. Most people felt disappointed with the writers for choosing to go down that path. IMO its just a contrived plot point to do a soft reset to season 1 Sam & Dean. Which is probably a good thing. Its invigorating and am sure both of them will start to become brothers again. The journey will be satisfying. To start on different pages but with time realising how much they mean to each other will be a better approach than both starting together and fighting throughout the season and drifting apart.
I personally think its time to move past the Sam didnt look for Dean thing. Btw… am a Dean girl but hold no grudge whatsoever towards Sam. Cos I love him too. Its time we cut him some slack. He’ll always be there for Dean the way Dean is there for him (no matter what the writers think).
The people I see that are really upset about the Sam storyline are the Sam fans. We have both Dean and Sam with changes to their personalities. In Dean’s case we are getting a detailed look as to why. In Sam’s case we are getting “I hit a dog” and promises of his relationship being like a rom-com. What we have been told about Sam’s story is not the kind of story that Supernatural has EVER done well. Plus, historically, the writers decide to put Sam’s POV in the back half of the season and then get “distracted” and we never really see it. Added to this are the interviews that say we are going to see why Castiel did what he did and Benny is moving to the forefront, so at some point I expect an origin story on him as well.
Right now they are having Sam act in a way that I find difficult to explain and every indication is that the explanation is it just happened. Sam is getting a character transplant (or return to season one) with no accompanying explanation as to WHY his character would change so much or WHY he would even think he could return to his season one naivety. And that bothers me immensely.
I’m most definitely a Dean fan, but I’m liking this new Sam and this new way of looking at the brothers’ relationship. I do think that it’s much too premature to think or discuss that Sam has no more story. Based on experience with Dean’s Lisa love story, after two episodes I was still of the opinion that he had a role in the season.
I can understand, based on this story’s past history, that there is a fear that Sam’s won’t go any further than Dean’s did, but this is a different showrunner and ascribing him the sins of previous showrunners isn’t a logical.
Right now, I think Sam looks very mature. I’m liking this Sam and am very interested to see where they take him this season. If, by the end of the season, it doesn’t turn out any better than Dean’s did, then I’ll call BS, just as I did with Dean.
I, too, hope the show doesn’t turn to Cas’ story and leave both brothers as support characters to that. Been there, done that, and am NOT interested in seeing that again.
I didnt have much of a problem with the old one so if you are going to give me a gleaming brand new Sam give me how he got there .
Mature isnt a reason its a 6 letter word and it isnt about a love story it is about explaining why a character would go from one thing to something else and bridging that gap. The writers need to fill that in and not that Sam was reset back to season 1 .
This is exactly what I was trying to say.
[quote]I didnt have much of a problem with the old one so if you are going to give me a gleaming brand new Sam give me how he got there .
Mature isnt a reason its a 6 letter word and it isnt about a love story it is about explaining why a character would go from one thing to something else and bridging that gap. The writers need to fill that in and not that Sam was reset back to season 1 .[/quote]
You’re definitely correct. They need to SHOW us not just TELL us. Make us understand Sam because right now I am seeing him as NotSam.
[quote]I didnt have much of a problem with the old one so if you are going to give me a gleaming brand new Sam give me how he got there . Mature isnt a reason its a 6 letter word and it isnt about a love story it is about explaining why a character would go from one thing to something else and bridging that gap. The writers need to fill that in and not that Sam was reset back to season 1 .[/quote]Well said
I’m afraid you misinterpreted my main concern. Although the Lisa/Ben story wasn’t handled well, I’m not concerned that Sam/Amelia will be handled poorly. I am concerned that SAM’s stories (plural) have gotten short shrift in many seasons and frankly, Carver was on the writing staff during several of those season. In addition, most of the current writing staff and Bob Singer were around for those seasons as well.
I am not basing my concerns on the handling of DEAN’S past history. I am basing it on the handling of SAM’s past storylines. I am also basing my feelings on interviews with both Jared and Carver. All the interviews state that Sam’s story is simply finding a dog and a girl, this is not encouraging.
While I think we agree that both Sam and Dean’s stories were handled very poorly in the last two years, our miles vary on the five before that. As I said, I do appreciate your concerns — lord knows I sat through 3 years waiting for a Dean story to be told. I, too, want both Sam and Dean to have good stories this season. I think I’m more optimistic than you are in that Carver will do that. I’m going to give him that chance. If, at the end of the season, that doesn’t happen, I’m calling BS. My biggest concern is that Cas will again take over the story. I’m okay with Cas as a support character, but I don’t want him given equal footing to the Winchesters.
I think we will always be miles apart in certain aspects but I can agree the storytelling has been poor recently .I have made no bones about the fact that the writing for Sam’s trauma last year left alot to be desired and the quick fix left a bitterness .
Dean’s Purgatory this season has got the storytelling Sam’s should of got last season but that season has gone now and I am still hoping Sam’s story gets the focus it deserves this season and I feel at the end of the season that season 8 was a good one for Sam.That there were reasons for his mindset that story and character aspects were explained .
[quote]I have made no bones about the fact that the writing for Sam’s trauma last year left alot to be desired and the quick fix left a bitterness .[/quote]
Absolutely, that ep should have been about Sam, but it was hijacked by Cas as usual.
I really don’t want to see Cas take over the storyline again this year or Benny for that matter. I’m all for supporting characters, but the show should focus on the Winchesters.
[quote]My biggest concern is that Cas will again take over the story. I’m okay with Cas as a support character, but I don’t want him given equal footing to the Winchesters.[/quote]
This is something we totally agree on. Like you I want the focus to be on Sam and Dean, not Castiel and Benny or Kevin or Amelia or the dog. I want the show to come back to the brothers, their relationship and how things affect them.
[quote]no matter what the writers think[/quote]Writers have shown Sam to be there for Dean .Writers are not the ones who don’t see …
According to most Sam fans not this time right? I mean this whole discussion started there (about Sam not looking for Dean sl).
sorry.I didn’t understand your comment.Sam fans see that Sam has been there for Dean.Writers have shown Sam being there for Dean …so..i really did not understand…I as a Sam fan myself have been tired for Sam being blamed for his mistakes and others not so much and the second part i blame the writers for as it creates an imbalance (i.e,others not so much part).
Am not sure if you have read the entire thread. Some fans were upset that Sam gave up on Dean this time around and didnt do all he could to save him or atleast find out what happened to him. Btw… am not one of them. I understand Sam’s pov. But there is a section of fandom that felt bad that the writers made Sam look uncaring in the 1st episode (read previous posts & the comments there to know more). So my comment was to those fans that no matter what the writers did in epi 1 we all know Sam cares. Hope this clarifies.
At the beginning i had that apprehension too.And the only reason for that apprehension was how Sam was treated earlier by the fandom as the selfish brother????? Even Sam’s action was seen as may be selfish???in Swan song.I am simply tired of this.All of comments include my experience since i have entered the internet fandom i.e season 4 ( the worst time i chose to come.I dropped all sites except this one)
[quote]I as a Sam fan myself have been tired for Sam being blamed for his mistakes and others not so much[/quote]
Its funny u say that, cos as a Dean fan I often feel that Dean gets blamed no matter what. And he also has to take advice from complete strangers. Atleast we think alike even it is not abt the same person 🙂
Yes even Dean has been blamed..But has his mistakes been resurrected every two episodes.Does that mean they should give the same treatment to Dean? No.But why only Sam.Even Castiel’s mistakes were not brought Up (season 5), They had Sam forgive him (Cas) so easily (season7)…and was sam praised for that or did anyone credit for him alone for saving the world like Lisa gave to Dean?Again i have no problem with whatever good they do with Dean or Cas or any other character but since this is a story of two brothers and not Dean and his little brother i would like the same treatment given to Sam as Dean.[quote]And he also has to take advice from complete strangers.[/quote]One of the reasons is sam is not there like in the chronos episode .If Sam interacts with Characters like Chronos,Frank ….then he will be too.even Ellen from beyond has a message (Advise) for Dean…That does not help sam’s character development much.But i do understand what you are saying.
Well, since when are “good intentions” enough to win you lots of praise, especially in this fandom?
Cas had good intentions when self-righteous drove the brothers apart in Season 4. Cas had good intentions when he held Cas had good intentions when he lied about his deal with Crowley in Season 6. Cas had good intentions when he lied about Balthazar unsinking the Titanic. Cas had good intentions when he self-righteously killed all those people while juiced up on purgatory. Cas had good intentions when he killed all those angels who opposed him.
I don’t think much of Cas’ “good intentions,” yet for so many- Cas doesn’t even have to explain himself or apologize. He is just blanket forgiven for everything, nothing he ever does is even considered questionable. I don’t get it.
I understand Sam and Dean, and fans seeing thing from their POV, getting past Cas’s actions based on good intentions: they’ve both done some terrible things in exigent circumstances themselves. What I really don’t get is Samandriel. Cas massacred what looked like thousands of angels. I can’t think of a single human person who has massacred people for essentially political/ideological reasons whom I’d describe as having “too much heart.” I’m hoping he’ll turn out to be some sort of double agent, trying to get Dean’s trust to get info about Cas for nefarious purposes.
I’m not even trying to understand Samandriel. It’s pretty clear that angels don’t relate to one another the way humans do as evidenced by the way Cas killed Rachel and Balthazar, his family. Look at the archangels. They don’t view family the same way certainly that the Winchesters do. So when Dean called Cas family, I don’t think Cas understood what that meant to Dean. Sorry, got a little off topic.
Well speaking with respect to this fandom Castiel gets away with certain’ action’s because his name is not Sam and other character’s have and will get away with things because their names are not Sam.
Prehaps Sam should change his name to Marvin or something?.
I think you’ve hit on the crux of the issue here.
[quote] I’m assuming he still has an Archangel tethered to him right? I mean they can’t all be dead. We never met them all.[/quote]
I think, sweetondean, I remember Samandriel said that he is the keeper of the word of God. (correct me if I am wrong). But to me it seems the angels are more interested in protecting the tablet than the prophet.
This case is different than Chuck. Chuck received his images or ‘God’s word’ in his head. So to protect the Word the angles must protect the prophet. But here the Word is written on a tablet. I am afraid it’s not that important for the angles to protect Kevin as they are protecting the tablet.
Kevin spent days (perhaps weeks?) inside Dick’s office but no angels whatsoever showed up. When kevin kidnapped by Crowley, no angels came down to smite the demons. Kevin have to escape by his own. BUT when the tablet is in jeopardy, the angels showed up. What can you read from this?
Another thought, Sam in episode 1 looked too worried about the tablet than about Kevin (or even about Dean, his own brother) He insisted to ask Kevin “Where’s the tablet” and just let it go when Dean said “Hey, at least it’s safe, ok?”
Sam is behaving just like the angels :
– Worrying about the Tablet a bit too much. (even Kevin lookd at him oddly at the time)
– Worrying about Cas a bit too much. (Pressuring Dean and asking If Dean saw Cas dead) The same first thing that Samandriel asked Dean
– Behaving too calm and collected the whole time.
-Other than the creepy god and the other gods in the room, Sam is the one who handled Mjolnr. (I know I probably read too much into it but there’s correlation here I guess)
I know I may be just talking nonsense here but, I don’t know why this thing just nag at me. If I look at it and re watch the episodes these things just come out.
The reverse exorcism, the fact that Sam smells demon when Dean cannot. Yet, days before Dean demonstrated that he could smell dog in the car? I know it probably a shot out to Sam’s addicted year but If it’s only sulfur, Dean should be able to smell it too right? Just like he can smell the dog? The sulfur came from the demon’s smoke.
Sam : D’you smell that?
Dean: Smelling the air “What?”
Then Sam burst in followed by Dean.
Oh my goodness I love everything you say here! And you’ve got my brain ticking…which is never good!
I wondered about the smelling the Demon thing too, I thought, maybe sulphur, or maybe blood, but it was obvious Sam smelt it and Dean didn’t.
I love how suspicious we all are! This show makes us paranoid!
Thanks for the great comment…stuff to think about!
Oy! Could Sam be hosting an angel? yikes.
Sam has been hosting an angel before, Lucifer. But maybe this time it’s not as far as hosting an angel. Perhaps just working with them? I dunno.
Thank you Sweetondean for your thoughtful and thorough comments. I ,too, am intrigued by the way the season is going. Your visceral response at the end of the show was similar to mine. I felt a wave of sadness roll over me after the last scene. I think it is because Carver has set up so many important emotional issues and dilemmas. The stakes are so high for both Sam and Dean.
I enjoy how Jensen is portraying the feral Dean and the scenes in Purgatory are off the charts. It is clear that the two can work the jobs together, but that working out their own “lives” outside of the job is more problematic than ever.
I have read several posts and have yet to see this mentioned. When Dean and Sam sat with Mrs. Tran before she was supposed to relinquish her soul, she asked if it would hurt to give it up. Dean said, “Probably.” Then she asked, “Will it kill me?” Sam said, “You’ll just wish you were dead.” He is speaking from experience even though Mrs. Tran doesn’t know this.
My question: Is Sam sharing his true feelings/memory/regrets about having been soulless? If so, does this provide any insight into the ways Sam is behaving so far in terms of seeing to be a little disconnected?
Am I reading too much into one comment? Did anyone else wonder about Sam’s response to Mrs. Tran?
Great recap and thoughts on this episode. I’m running behind again. Just a short comment. Loved the episode. Love Purgatory Dean and really liking Benny
[quote][quote]Girl/dog is BORING! (And even Osric Chau, in the most recent podcast, said something to the effect that he didn’t think anybody could ever really walk away after seeing what he’s seen, (not a direct quote)[b] so why would the writers think we’d buy Sam doing just that?[/b] – not good writing, imho)[/quote]
You’re saying it! I couldn’t agree more.
But I just don’t understand why when we voice our opinion on this matter, people think us as ‘whiny’ even tell us to stop watching the show.
I follow the show from the pilot and follow the progression of the brothers and I think the season finale of S6 said a lot about the core of the show.
Sam forced himself to accept hell memories, even if it’s painful because he couldn’t let Dean alone out there. Then they follow it through with 7.02 When Sam made Dean as his stone number 1 to build his wall from scratch.
How come we get from THAT to this OOC Sam?[/quote]
Exactly, this is the same Sam that said, “People don’t just disappear, Dean. Other people just stop looking for them.”
[quote]The people I see that are really upset about the Sam storyline are the Sam fans. .[/quote]
I’m a Dean fan, and still I’m upset.
[quote]That’s funny Percysowner, cause I was thinking the exact same thing regarding the demon blood thing. All of a sudden, exorcizing the demons back to hell while saving the host is looking pretty good by comparison to what they are doing now.[/quote]
It does look good!!
[quote]
I also must comment on Dean taking his tie off, I think I’ve watched that gif tens of times. That was just so perfect for that scene and so hot! :-)[/quote]
It was, wasn’t it 😉