Let’s Discuss: Supernatural Season Nine, Season Not Fine
Now that’s it’s Hellatus, it’s time to bring back our Let’s Discuss threads. Season nine is over and we have really conflicting opinions on how it played out. Here’s the thread for the not so happy campers.
For those who aren’t happy with season nine here’s a place to discuss your issues. Don’t like how Sam, Dean, Cas, Crowley, third angel from the left were portrayed? Here’s the place to say why. Didn’t like how the season flowed? Talk about it here. Have mixed feelings, but mostly negative? You can talk about what worked for you, but if you are generally happy mosey over to the other thread to be with those who agree. Here, any and all complaints are accepted.
As with most Let’s Discuss threads, rules are not so strict, but they do exist. You still have to be polite to all the posters. No bashing them. No actor bashing. Some Sam v. Dean will be tolerated, but keep it civil. I know the season has some people really upset. This is the place for you.
My gawd, where do I start.
I don’t like METATRON at all. He is a villain, I know, I know. He speaks for some of TPTB telling us to enjoy the story and shut up. THEY are in control and do as they see fit. OK, COOL. EVERY DOG has his day AND A GOOD DOG HAS TWO. :p
Yes I am sure KEVIN DYING fit nicely into the plotline but really AGAIN.
Hopefully the plot can get somewhere near to the old directive. HUNTING THINGS, SAVING PEOPLE, FAMILY AND FRIENDS.
nuff sed for now. NEXT
My biggest complaint was again the schism between the brothers (drama be damned!)
I’m sure my complaint for next season will be my hero being a demon. Never never never did I wish for my 100% human hero to really
have black eyes. My heart is hurting worrying I will never see MY Dean again!
I cannot praise enough Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki for their magnificent and awesome acting skills. And I love them both for their
beautiful friendship in reality.
And Nolanola, what I want, like you, is SAVING PEOPLE, HUNTING THINGS THE FAMILY BUSINESS!
Till the end and forever, Bevie
I couldn’t really celebrate Sam’s line “I lied” because it seemed like he was again in the wrong etc. and it nullified Sam trying to make his point.
I’m still confused about the message. Is Sam saying he would let Dean decide what to do with his own life or is Sam saying he, too, wouldn’t be able to risk his brother making the wrong choice so he’d let Dean get possessed?
Also I didn’t like the editing when it came to Sam and Dean saying goodbye. I was expecting the camera to stay longer on Sam especially after hearing Jensen talk about Jared soaking his shoulder etc. but the scene cut really quickly back to Metatron and Cas. Dean dying wasn’t even the main event.
I concur, not enough time on SAM’S face.
Apparently there are longer versions of that scene (which sound a bit like they might be like the carpark scene in Mystery Spot) and way more emotional versions. J2 both mentioned it at the con at the weekend. What got on air was a very short bit (well, you know, Metatron had to monologue and that time had to come from somewhere). Hopefully there will be extended scenes of various things we KNOW Sam said during the season that were cut, on the DVD. I think we are owed it at this stage 🙂
Yes! If they wanted to make it less similar to Sam dying in Dean’s arms in 2.21, instead of just cutting down the scene of Sam crying they could’ve maybe showed more of the aftermath. That hasn’t been done before. It’s always a case of the dead or injured brother already laid down on a bed and cleaned up.
I thought the point is that Sam is now a worthy/equal brother in Dean’s eyes because Sam will override Dean’s autonomy and make dangerous risks that could result in other people getting hurt to save Dean’s life? All that matters is that Dean is ‘alive’ even if he is a demon and clearly stated in the finale that dying would be better than becomeing what he was heading towards becoming.
My first reaction was that now Sam for sure has gotten the message loud and clear. If he thinks Dean is dead, he should make some sort of deal or otherwise he is letting his brother down (season 8). I like that the brothers can’t let each other go but I don’t like this game-playing where Sam is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.
Is the show saying now that the brothers will get each other possessed without telling because that shows the true Winchester way, how the brothers would sell their soul etc. even though they’d never want the other one to do it in return, and the brothers have now reached a point where they can admit to all that?
I think that the show should not touch morally ambiguous subjects ever again. Otherwise very easily one brother has to be proven to be “wrong” which seem to be the case now. The show should just concentrate on Sam trying to do anything to save Dean in season 10, that’s what most people wanna see. I just don’t understand why there had to be a debate about possession if Sam’s stand all along was that he was lying.
As Nolanola said…where do I start??? After Sacrifice I was SO excited for S9. I loved the first half of S9, I was so excited to see what happened with the Sam/Gadreel storyline but in the end I was just left disappointed.
A huge issue for me is the Sam POV. Or, rather, the lack of Sam POV. The last time we had decent Sam POV was way back in S3 but this year, IMO, has been worse than ever. Sam has been mostly silent. Why haven’t we heard Sam’s thoughts and feelings. Or seen him actually reacting to something? Sure we got a line in 9.23 to tell us Sam was having nightmares about Kevin’s death (thank you Carver for this crumb at least) but that was mostly all. Sure Jared excels at the whole facial expression stuff but some actual dialogue would be nice too.
Lack of a sympathetic POV/writing for Sam despite him being the victim has been extremely hard to swallow. 🙁 I can’t fathom why Sam got so little sympathetic POV this past season. His talk to Castiel was more about Castiel than Sam. I really miss Sera Gamble. She wrote Sam beautifully. I wish Carver would write more episodes as he writes Sam wonderfully too. The other writers seem reluctant to write for Sam or they are unable to write for Sam. Sam’s storyline could have been fantastic this year but he mostly disappeared whereas Jodie, Garth, Charlie and The Ghostfacers all had episodes about them.
Another big issue for me was the constant brotherly conflict. It has been exhausting to watch and I haven’t found it enjoyable.
I’ve never been very interested in the angel stories but this year I have found the never ending angel wars almost impossible to get into. I lost interest in it all a long time ago and I’m just utterly bored senseless by them now. I was disappointed by the finale because, for me, there was just way too much angel stuff. I really did not like how Dean’s death scenes kept cutting back to yet more interminable monologuing from Metatron/other angel stuff. I read on Twitter today that Dean’s death scenes/Sam’s grief were shortened in the final edit. If that is true then I’m pretty much completely gobsmacked. 🙁 To my mind such crucial, heartbreaking scenes should have had way more time devoted to them.
The MOC storyline. This, at the start, seemed to be another really exciting storyline with a huge amount of potential. The writers could have mined this storyline for every bit of angst, drama and action throughout these past weeks and weeks of episodes. But again, nothing much happened until the last few episodes. Pacing has always been an issue on this show but it seemed to me that there should have been more episodes devoted to extending the MOC storyline, showing us more thoroughly how it was all impacting on Dean and to give us Sam reacting to it all. Jensen has been great but the whole storyline could have been so much more. I also thought that Abbadon was horribly underused.
Oh dear, I think I’ve probably rambled on too much now so I’d better stop. Sorry for ranting so much. In short…S9, definitely not fine. I have watched since The Pilot and it’s my least favourite season. In a more positive vein – Jared, Jensen and everyone else have been wonderful this year. Jared acting Sam/Gadreel/Ezekiel was fantastic as was Jensen with his MOC storyline. *Applauds J2*
[quote]I really did not like how Dean’s death scenes kept cutting back to yet more interminable monologuing from Metatron/other angel stuff. I read on Twitter today that Dean’s death scenes/Sam’s grief were shortened in the final edit. If that is true then I’m pretty much completely gobsmacked. 🙁 To my mind such crucial, heartbreaking scenes should have had way more time devoted to them.[/quote]
Snap! 😀 We both posted this at the same time pretty much
duplicate sorry
Where do I begin?
There were so many missed opportunities!!! Cas as a human. Cas living with the boys and learning how to be a human. Sam and Gadreel. How Sam reacted to Gadreel using him to kill Kevin. The boys reaction to Kevin’s death. More Mark of Cain. The effects of the Mark. We only get to see how the boys feel about the Mark in the last 2 episodes basically.
Basically every neat thing they possibly could have done they didn’t bother with and glossed over it.
They basically canonically stated Cas is in love with Dean, and last year Dean was supposed to say he was in love with Cas in the crypt scene but they changed that. Yes I ship Destiel, but not just because I think they look cute and work well together. I feel they had a perfect opportunity for Bisexual representation and were too chicken to actually do it. And they led us shippers on all through the season. Possibly because they were offending the non-shippers, but really? You’re going to cater to people who are homophobic? This is 2014 and one of your actors has admitted he is bisexual and ships it himself, but you’re still too afraid. Even if they make it canon next season, it’s too little too late in my opinion. Especially after Jensen and Jared bashing it and the fans that ship it at JibCon. (Which btw, super stupid move on their part, insult a very devout group of fans who are already p.o.’d and reinforce the fans who send them hate all in a few fell swoops. Great job.)
Despite the fact that I am a self proclaimed Dean girl, and hated Sam viciously at certain parts of the season, it would have been way better if he had screen time and expressed his [i]feelings[/i] like Sam is supposed to and always has. The excessive angst and silence Sam turned him into a minor and unnoteable character this season which is such a shame since he did so good with what he was given.
And I’m still frustrated with Dean not finding out what all the side effects of the MoC are. I understand why he did it, and that the writers were trying to add tension. But quite frankly, consistently keeping your fans in the dark and not giving them crumbs led to my imagination going wild and coming up with far more interesting storylines and possibilities than actually came to fruition.
So no. Totally unsatisfied with this season.
[quote] I feel they had a perfect opportunity for Bisexual representation and were too chicken to actually do it. And they led us shippers on all through the season. Possibly because they were offending the non-shippers, but really? You’re going to cater to people who are homophobic? [/quote]
Please tell me that you are not implying that anyone who does not ship destiel is homophobic? That’s how your statement reads to me and is an assumption I find offending in the extreme.
No. My apologies. I was not saying that all non Destiel shippers are homophobic. But I have received a lot of hate personally from many non-Destiel shippers because it would be a gay couple, which would be an insult to the show, an insult to the characters, an insult to the actors. How dare I believe Dean could be interested in a guy. How dare I think a genderless angel in a male vessel could fall for a man. I would like to think that the biggest uproar if Destiel were to be made canon instead of just “implied” would be from homophobic fans, rather than just any fan who doesn’t ship it. I don’t know any fans that want the show to be made all about Destiel. Me personally, I just want to see them happy. And the life they live it would be hard to do that with someone who isn’t as talented and as well accustomed to it as they are. Again, I would still love for there to be canon main character bisexual representation.
I’m sorry my statement came off the wrong way, I in no way meant all no Destiel shippers are homophobic.
I would love to know the actor who is and ships it him/herself.
after 10 years you don’t think they would have addressed it by now.
since they have not, I figure IT WONT BE CANNON, another reason I do
love me some TEEN WOLF. :p
That’s OK; I am sorry for being mistaken. I am not a shipper of any ships on this show really, as I don’t personally believe that this show is about ships of any kind other than brotherhood for the most part. Having said that though, I don’t have any problem with fans who do like to support a ship, weather that be between two men, two women an angel and a man, an angel and a woman or a woman and man or whomever. I think that you will find everyone here very open minded for the most part. They may not agree or ship your ship, but they will always be polite and will never spew hate simply for having an opinion and a desire. 😀
you know what’s sad….
I cant remember all the episodes by name.
I need synopsis’
It’s all in our episode guide! Here’s the one for season nine. All episodes with synopsis’.
thanks friend,
but it says something that I still cant recall the episodes just by their names
sometimes the synopsis leave me bewildered.
seasons 1-7 were different for me. I have not even bought seasons 8 nor probably 9 YET
Season 9 is a prime example of how not to write a lead character. My biggest issue as people know was how the possession was handled on Sam’s behalf and in turn that in all honesty affected my connection to the other sl’s including Dean’s MOC . Which is a shame because there was so much potential esp for Sam to be given character storytelling rather than plot but outside of 10 mins with Cas and one line about nightmares it never went anywhere , it was used to push Dean into the MOC at that was it.
It has been a season like season 7 I have found myself having a hard time with because Sam who is my connection to the show was not really connected to anything . There were some good moments dont get me wrong but it wasnt enough at least for me.
Sam who?
There was a lot I liked about the season, and I’ll be posting that in the other discussion on S9. But, there were things in S9 that bugged me so here goes –
1) Canon and Consistency – some effort needs to be made by the show writers to be a little more consistent in the story they are telling, and Canon – I have no problem with them building on things, or using some head canon to fill in the blanks but they’ve gotten really sloppy on a lot of this. A couple of head scratchers from S9
– Demons can time travel?
– Demons can remove a live human’s soul and store them in bell jars? Nothing in previous lore / canon would make one believe that this is possible.
– When Dean used the blood sigil to try to disable Gadreel so he could talk to Sam, Dean failed because Gadreel altered the sigil; instead of going all torture dungeon on Gadreel/Sam in the next episode, why didn’t they simply try the undoctored/unaltered blood sigil again?
– Demons (Crowley) dropping in on the MOL Bunker like it was the local Gas N Sip; they made a very specific point of telling us in S8 that the bunker is warded against all known evil and I think the King of Hell qualifies as evil.
– Reapers and Rogue Reapers – it’s going on S10, folks. the writers and show runner really need to decide on what the hell a reaper is. I guess it’s settled that they are a type of angel now? Or will this change again in S10? I have no problem with them being angels and, in fact, it kind of makes sense, but they’ve been all over the map on this one.
2) Brotherly conflict is becoming drawn out and a little tedious; it’s fine for them to fight and argue, and things shouldn’t be all “hugs and puppies”, but it got to the point in S9 where you started to wonder why the hell they were even hunting partners.
3) Sam’s possession – all appearances are they are whitewashing this. My reasons for thinking this is the POV we are getting from the writing – ghost Kevin telling them to “get over it”, Dean not apologizing until the last episode, and a few lines about Sam’s nightmares about it. I, for one, thought this was an important arc which they really didn’t know what to do with so they just dropped it. It may very well be something they pick up on in S10, particularly if Demon Dean is written as a demonic possession, and not that his soul was turned all demony – not sure on this yet – whether the Mark of Cain itself is demonic, or Dean’s soul turned demonic.
4) Mark of Cain – this started out great but I don’t think they spent enough time developing the story; they also kind of telegraphed early on where they were going with it.
5) Angel storyline; most of the angels are portrayed as mindless automatons so the story just wasn’t as compelling as it could have been. They did raise the stakes with all those souls being stuck in the veil, but that went nowhere – I am hoping they pick up on this in S10, or at least address it with a throwaway line in an early episode. Metatron started out great, became somewhat cartoonish and annoying but, to his credit, Carver kind of fixed this in the last episode, and this part of the angel storyline was brought to a satisfying conclusion.
6) Lack of POV for Sam – Sam kind of faded in to the background in the second half of the season. I enjoyed both Crowley and Castiel’s journeys this year but this shouldn’t be at the expense of the brother’s story; the show works best when both of them are actively engaged in the story.
7) Dean became very unsympathetic in the latter part of the season; the writers might have pushed this a little too far but I’m reserving judgement on this until the S10 storyline starts to unfold.
8) Pacing – the pacing of the season was off, with long periods of MOTW storytelling followed by episodes with lots of mytharc crammed in to them. There was also a lot of storylines being juggled at the same time and it seemed a little jumbled at times; don’t know if this was done to throw as many of them out there to see what “stuck”, or if this was the plan all along. Also a lot of bad guys (and gal) this year – not sure which one was supposed to be the worst of the lot.
First of all, english is not my first language, so sorry for any mistakes :p
I had a hard time watching season 9. The first episodes were very good. Nice storytelling, the beginning of the MoC-story and then ups…where’s Sam? On a holiday trip or what. The writer wrote him out of the season with the line we are no more brothers we’re just partners. Come on you writers you can do better than that!
Sure Dean was in need of a storyline. Always protecting his baby brother was boring. But without his brother he’ like a fish without water, he’s drowning. And SN,too. 🙁
Dean now beeing a Deamon, okay might be a good idea, IF the storyline is good. I don’t need an other season 8 performance where Sam is not looking for Dean. And I realy DON’T need more brotherfight. So PLEASE writers have a heart and give us our old brothers back in season 10!!!!. I want Sam to be the one who saves his brother, (maybe with the help of Cas or Charlie or Jodie or Garth???) and I want Dean to be the big brother who gives Sam the bitch-speech. And want to be back to saving people, hunting things, the family business. So back to the roots Sn 10, PLEASE!:)
I really wanted BLOODLINES to work for many reasons. We need shows being filmed in AMERICA again and I know JIM MICHAELS would have loved to go back home to CHICAGO, his hometown to live and work.
Having SPN included was a slap in the face to JENSEN and SERA and the wonderful world everyone has created.
Take the SPN namebrand off and it might work with the teenagers/tweens.
There are more than enough CREATIVE ideas around for a spin off. BELIEVE ME
This was in response to someone in Alices’ review asking why the writers are unable to write Sam POV….which has been the major disappointment (understatement) for me in S9 (and really the last 5 or 6 years).
that the writers are refusing to give Sam pov becasue they dont care about Sam. I’m finally watching BAd BOys were once again for the millianth time Sam learns something about Dean. This happens at least once every year….and season 1 and two was all about Sam learning stuff about Dean. Can we even name an episode where Dean learns something about Sam? (and he doesn’t take it and twist it about himself) I find it ironic that Sam actually WANTS to learn about Dean…even searches for info about his brother as in Bad boys…he listens to Deann talk to OTHER people and we see Sam affected by it and he WANTS to know more about his brother as a person.
Dean has no such interest in Sam. He doesn’t want to know who Sam is…..this isn’t anything bad about DEAN but i long suspected Dean is the writers avatar. And the writers have no interest in Sam, knowing what he feels/thinks ..what he is interested in…all these tiny little things as well as big things that family knows about each otehr. SAm knows this stuff about Dean…but not the reverse. And that is because the writers dont care about Sam. They dont care to learn about Sam….and thus Dean is shown as not caring. Seriously…..Sam having nightmares about kevin…..imagine Dean knowing this about Sam, seeing it affect Sam. Sure Dean can feel guilty about it but imagine Dean knowing this…us knowing Dean knows this about Sam back when Dean sent Sam away from Gad and went Guantonamo bay on the Angel.
Dean knowing more about Sam would make the brother bond so much stronger…more personal. Unless the writers show Sams pov and the back and forth of the brothers relationship then honestly……the brothers relationship becomes pointless. If i can’t learn about Sams thoughts and feelings from interactions with Dean then seperate them and give me Sam interacting with a charector who can do this for him.
I’m sorry for feeling this way but I want to know Sam. I want to know MY hero better …and I want to see him be the Hero i know he is and not the Damsel in distress/plot devise thgat the writers see him as.
And oddly as awesonme as the MOC story arc should be it was written very poorly. Perception wise in hindsight? Dean would rather became a demon because this 35 year old man refused to have an adult conversation with his adult brother.
I’m in agreement with all of you who said Sam needed a POV this season. The possession story should have been fleshed out and we should have found out what was happening with Sam afterward. That was given very little attention and was left open to interpretation rather than being clearly stated.
Unlike most everyone here, I don’t want the brothers’ relationship to go back to what it was. IMO that relationship was extremely toxic and needs to be fixed if they are to continue hunting together. A relationship where one brother is beating up another is not my idea of a relationship. It needs to be changed and I am hoping that is where S10 is going.
Sam’s POV,too little.
Cutting of Jared’s scene…especially the one when dean dies.
“I lied”…I do not even understand this sentence.
Abaddon died a simple death.
Gadreel died.
the angel story became interesting in the last episode.
These are things I can remember.
now I understand the sam pov problem. yes sam finds out new things about dean but not vice/versa. dean is older and should have known sam was having NIGHT TERRORS or at least US. we never saw sam in college or the year with Amelia really. now I get it.
whats this about dean not wanting to have a talk with sam thus becoming a demon….don’t get that.
[quote]dean is older and should have known sam was having NIGHT TERRORS or at least US.[/quote]It is not necessary that Dean know things about Sam even in his childhood.The things Sam came to know about Dean were when Sam was not with Dean.So there are pockets of time when Sam was not with Dean to witness what happened to Dean.Conversly,In all those times Dean was also not with Sam.When Dean was in Sonny’s care Dean does not know what happened to Sam..another example is Pluck’s ..Dean did not know.They missed a chance of [u][b]showing[/b] [/u]us about Sam’s time in Plucky’s .As a Sam fan I would have really liked to have [b]seen[/b] how and why Sam fears clowns.And then there are times you have mentioned.
I’ve been trying to put my finger on exactly what it is about the last 2 JC seasons that has bugged me. There have certainly been times in seasons 1-7 that I have not liked the story line or that have bugged me a bit. But these last 2 I just couldn’t define. Then I started to review the first 5 seasons and I realized each of them stood on their own. Something ended or was resolved and something else began. That is what saved season 8 for me, something began and it was a good thing. But it wasn’t. Infact, it was all but forgotten by the time we reached the end of 9.
So, what was it?
Frankly, the big difference is that JC has known that he has a backer at the CW, he has the audience numbers and is assured of a renewal. So, he holds back. He has a plan and he’s not all that good at figuring out the pace. Kripke never knew from one season to the next if he would be back. He had to resolve better, fill in information more efficiently.
In prior seasons there might not have been resolution to the bigger issues but there was enough from the brother POV to propel the story.
I also see a similar note in many fan comments. They are hung up on something, maybe many things, but not really all that important things from the big picture POV. For me, just rolling over Sam’s issues and implying he is wrong for what he said. He was right, he just said it badly, and I wanted to hear him say it better. I’m stuck on something which causes me to hold my breath until that thing is resolved to a certain degree.
Truth is, many of the individual episodes these past 2 years have been very very good. If I can laugh or cry or feel passion, that’s a good thing. But because I am waiting for something, it lessens my enjoyment.
Honestly, I think JC has a plan, whether it’s a 3 year plan or a plan for the series end, I don’t know. The problem is that he appears to be stretching out plot points, leaving things unresolved all, it appears, so that he can spring on the viewers the final punch line, whatever that might be. Unfortunately by leaving things open he is not giving me much in the way of relief.
Seeing as there are so many open threads from the last 2 years (and even some left from prior years) and they still haven’t been addressed, he either doesn’t care or he’s hiding his true intentions in hope of a great reveal ala season 4. But you have to give us something! Resolve something! Don’t keep adding to the pile without resolution on something else. And I am not talking about the big mytharc, I’m speaking of smaller things.
The whole Gadreel thing would have been great if Gadreel had revealed something about Sam, details of hell, what he considered home (impala), something. Plus, Sam knowing some thing or having a hint at knowing something after Gadreel left. For sure Gadreel didn’t’ sleep 8 hours a night. What was he doing? What did he read or research? But, nothing, we got nothing.
Maybe next season we’ll get the real answer to who was standing outside Sam & Amelias house. Maybe we’ll get revelations from the forced possession. But how long do I wait?
I don’t know. But I need to change my method of viewing. Go back to waiting until the season ends to watch. Or just not care about anything but the episode I am currently watching. Dudes….old bag here…I could croak before I get a complete story from this!
There were many things that left me unfulfilled this year. Sam was pretty much by Dean’s side the whole year. He ran to his aid, he backed his plays (witness the time with Jody, agreeing with Dean that the human girl might need to be killed too, So not Sam…in fact, not Dean either). But what did he get for that? For saying that he wanted to work as professionals, partners? He got “infant” and poor Dean wif his hurt feeweens. Then an “I lied”? About what? I do understand that he might not have wanted to say “hey dips**t, I said I would die for you! back you up. I just meant I would not shove a supernatural life form down your freakin throat without your permission! Jerk.” But “I lied” was specifically meant to make big bro feel all good inside and want to survive. And for some reason that kinda ticked me off.
And I am sorry, but there was more than enough time to slip these things in during 23 episodes, there is just no excuse unless you are intentionally holding something back for later, or you just don’t care about that story.
And I suppose on a larger level (and I think I’ve stated this before) Dean didn’t need to do something so despicable. To me he had always shared the blame for all that had occurred in the previous season. What needed to happen was that he understand the part he played better. I don’t know, I hope we are not headed down the road where Dean becomes the monster he has accused everyone else of being. I fear that because when all is said and done, he will not get the backlash from Sam that Sam has had to endure from Dean (and Cas and everyone else) and so he will not ever know what that’s like. I don’t know how long demon Dean will last (I’m hoping for two episodes max) but if J2M know anything and they all refer to it as “a game changer” then I am not real excited.
Oh, I will still watch and love those boys, but I might just watch in a different way from now on.
Apologies…I did ramble.
Thank WFB for giving me this thread and this site to vent. I feel so much better now. All I can say is expectation is a bitch. After venting I was able to view things again in a different light, plus I’ve read your many comments on this and other threads and I think I agree that I might have had issues because of what I was assuming would or did happen. When I heard Sam say “I lied” I assumed it was about conversations after Gadreel had left the building, but from another post I think I agree it was about Sam being OK with letting Dean win his fight with Metatron at any and all costs. With this in mind I realized I was expecting some resolution on the other issues and was disturbed at having them left dangling again. I should be used to this by now but alas I still have great expectations. Thank You all for your comments and insight.
KINDRED, THE EMBRACED was the show with 5 vampire families. the lead died and was never recast. :p
yall KNEW that and could have helped a sistah out. 🙂
If you guys care NOLANOLA9 on twitter is just for WFB, US 🙂
Metatron was BORING. He should’ve been dealt with quickly and for good.
Abaddon needed more screen time and she should’ve been the final boss.
I don’t give a fuck about Random Angels Who Die After 1-2 Episodes.
Cas should’ve been with the boys instead of interacting boring throwaway characters no one gives a fuck about.
Too many damn fillers.
Those Two Fucks and The Klein are still allowed to write episodes.
Bringing back Tessa just to make her OOC and kill her off. Congratulations, idiots.
The fucking dog episode. Every dog-related episode on this show has been absolute shit.
9×08. Nuff said.
Treating Sam like crap and giving him next to nothing to do.
Killing Kevin when blinding him and stealing the tablets would’ve been enough and he could have stayed and continued being badass because someone like Kevin would just be even more determined after that.
There have been some good things, but not enough to save the season. Hell, even S7 had some really great episodes. Here? 9×02, 9×10, 9×11, 9×16, 9×17, 9×18, 9×23 – that was about it. Plus a few okay ones, but only these would be worth to rewatch.
ROTFLMAO
I was one of the few people who did not want SERA to get fired. Never was a fan of cutting out a powerful female in charge who KNEW HOW TO WRITE. Maybe running a show was not her forte’ but I was AGAINST IT THEN and remain.
What can I say I am a DIE HARD fan and with it til the end. NOT appointment tv for me anymore however. 🙁
Gadreel and Sam, like Dean and Castiel. Better a new spin off to rival DOMINION. ”Cas and Gad”
have a feeling I might not like Dominion.
Bring back GAD so together with CAS and SAM, they can work on HEAVEN and DEAN.
Rather than “where do I start?” with my issues with season 9, my question would be “how would I ever stop” listing them?
…So I will only say that, while I adore Jared and Jensen – and Sam and Dean – my love for the SHOW was pretty much extinguished this season. Season 9 has tainted all the previous seasons for me. I wasn’t even sure I WANTED to watch the finale (which is pretty extreme for me), and after watching it….. I wished I hadn’t.
Maybe my feelings will change over the hiatus, but I feel no excitement for the next season, and don’t really expect to tune in.
I know this is three months late, but I couldn’t agree more w/your every word. S9 killed my love for the show as well.
There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what happened in the first episode of S9, the largest of them being that Sam was somehow aware of what was going on, despite the fact that it was clearly shown that he wasn’t. Those pretty, golden-tinted scenes were events that happened within Sam’s subconscious, with parts of himself that he created, not the actual characters of Death, Bobby and Dean. Was that not clear? I’m sure the production team will be disappointed that they went to trouble of colourising the scenes to make it clear and some viewers still had trouble figuring it out.
Dean, despite many protests to the contrary, did not take [i]only[/i] Gadreel’s word on Sam’s dying. The doctor told him Sam would die and at the time Dean was forced into his choice, the hospital equipment plugged into Sam’s vitals were going ballistic. That means – heart rate dropping, blood pressure dropping, brain function bailing. Dean had a few seconds to choose if he let Sam die or if he was going to save him at any cost. He did know that Sam would never consent to being possessed by an angel. He knew that the consequences of his choice could drive a wedge between them that might never be fixed or healed. He acted within the bounds of his own personality, not out of fear of being alone, not out of some misguided attempt to control his brother … but because his life had been about being the guardian, the protector of Sam, and as in Cold Oak, he couldn’t face failing at that job. It was possibly the most in-character moment the writers managed the entire season. There is a huge difference between making a choice for someone believing you know better than they do, and making a choice that you are driven to from despair. Dean cannot ever stop trying to do his job, the job he took on involuntarily at four years’ old, when he carried Sam from the house, the job that he became compelled to do as he grew older. It wasn’t a “choice” for him, although he told himself it was. It was also one of the few moments in the last 2 years he was in-character.
And just as a small aside, does anyone think that a doctor, vowed to save lives, or a paramedic, or even just a civilian on the street, would let a man die if there was any way he could save him? Dean figured reasonably that it would be easier to argue the case with Sam, easier to convince him that he had a chance at a life, if he wasn’t dead. And I would be surprised to hear of many people who would make a different choice if it were their mother or brother or sister facing the same thing.
In any case, Dean knew full well that he would have to face the consequences of his actions when Sam was healed. He argued with Gadreel about telling Sam straight away, only backing down (and realising with even more clarity at that moment how deeply he’d enmired himself and his brother in a deal that would only get worse) when Gadreel pointed out that if Sam was angry and ejected him, his brother would still die. Lose-lose. It was obvious that Dean realised how bad it was going to be, lying to Sam after all they’d been through with the trials, but again, he didn’t have a choice – failing again was not an option he could face.
[i][b]At no time[/b][/i], was it shown or implied that Sam had the memories of his conversations with himself while he was comatose in the hospital.
From Sam’s conscious view, he chose to abort the trial to close Hell, to live. Dean presented a case for living, SAM MADE THE DECISION. No one forced him. Then he woke up in the car and was gung-ho about doing something about the fallen angels.
It was a writer error that he suddenly decided he was ready to die, another re-write of Dean’s readiness to die in Faith, and a poorly handled decision to build a conflict out of nothing. Sam had a real and valid reason to be furious with Dean for the angel possession and for allowing Crowley in. Not only because Gadreel killed Kevin, but because the last time Sam was possessed by an angel, it was friggin’ Lucifer. It’s difficult to see how that 1-ton anvil of meaning could have been overlooked by both writers and fans, but somehow it seems to have been. That was a solid, justified reason for a conflict between the brothers, but it was dissipated by the ongoing and non-justified crap about Sam wanting to die or about Dean lying (and that was truly, stinkingly rich, given the entire events of seasons 4 and 6! Apparently the writers didn’t watch those either).
Had that distortion been left out, the conflict between Dean and Sam might have been more dramatic and less melodramatic and ham-fisted. I have been wondering if the reason that Sam’s POV has not been shown for the last 2 years is because the writers have been using Sam as a trigger for whenver they feel like throwing some mud into the situation and cannot justify the conflict arising, therefore they choose to ignore Sam’s view, his thoughts and feelings and opinions. Sam acts as a provocateur, with no real character of his own anymore.
Does no one remember the debacle of the Ghosthunter episode, with it’s hammy parallels between the brothers and Ed and Harry? How impossible it was for the writers to come up with an actual parallel between them since there was no point of similarity? Ed lied. They attempted to make the brothers’ conflict about Dean lying to Sam about the possession. It was yet another twist on Sam’s “anger” … first that he’d wanted to die, quickly dropped. Then that it was Dean making a decision on Sam’s behalf, not trusting Sam to make the choice for himself, and then that got warped into Sam really being angry because Dean had lied to him about the possession. Isn’t the pattern obvious?
There was no plan there – the writers just made up whatever they thought they could force into the episodes to continue the conflict. What’s worse is that every time they thought of a new reason for Sam to be pissed at his brother, they couldn’t think of a way to justify it from a rational perspective, so it was just tossed in there and Sam’s point of view was ignored completely. In the last 2 years of this writing, Sam has only once gotten a chance to tell another character and the audience how he was feeling – and why. That was in Sacrifice, when he admitted that he couldn’t cope with feeling as if he was a disappointment to his brother. That should have been the basis for a conversation between them in the season just gone. But the writers apparently forgot all about and went with the non-specific, changing-specific, non-rational anger instead.
The facts of the matter are that the writers had the basis for their conflict built into Gadreel healing Sam and Dean having to hide it. They had it in the fact that Gadreel had trusted his brother, his only crime for which he was imprisoned for millennia. They had it in Sam’s experiences with Lucifer and with Meg, and in his feeling that he couldn’t live up to his brother’s expectations and that Dean failed his own expectations, knowing he would never have consented to an angel possession, not even to live. Those conflicts were all there, they didn’t need to be embellished or contorted or confused by more rationalisation. Sam’s POV should have been shown from the moment he found out about it, should have been the driving force for Dean’s decision to leave him and hunt on his own, should have been the Grand Canyon of a split, enforced for more than one bleeding episode, to show both brothers dealing with who they were. Dean needed a chance to be away from Sam, to see what his life had become. Sam needed a chance to be away from Dean to see what he wanted, to work out if hunting was his life. Those are “maturing” directions. Not endless sniping over nothing. Not Dean stating forcefully he is going to hunt alone and then back with his brother with nothing more than a milquetoast ‘I was confused’ one episode later.
I miss Sam Winchester. I haven’t seen him in the show consistently since he took on Lucifer and fell into a hole into the ground. There are flashes, here and there, of the young man who was poisoned by demon blood, manipulated into breaking the final seal and devastated by that act, but only flashes. I haven’t seen much of Dean either. Dean in an apron, with a thermometer in hand, is not Dean. Dean, with gun in hand, not taking down a vampire but waiting for a couple of teenagers to do it – not Dean. Dean, angsting over how poisoned he is and then about-facing in the next episode, also not Dean. I am sick to death of the self-inserting these writers do with the characters, from the meaningless pop culture references (who in their right mind would think that Dean would know or care who the hell Bernie Madoff was!?!?! Or that an angel bent on humanity’s destruction would know or care about him either, for that matter!?!?) to the “memories” of a childhood that in no way reflected the character’s upbringing but that of the writer alone, to the misunderstood psychological basis of both leading characters, extrapolating from the writers’ life experiences instead of understanding the blue collar and militaristic upbringing and background that shaped the characters.
Even more depressingly, it’s obvious that they will not – are probably not capable of – redressing what’s been done and taking the time and care to show the characters as we’ve learned them over the first five years of the show. And the more “fanon” that gets thrown into the mix, the less coherent all the possible storylines become. You know a writer isn’t much good when they persistently put in “dun-dun-dah!” lines into a story and then fail to deliver on them (or worse, forget about them entirely). The “angel war” on earth, anyone?
I wouldn’t even know how to speculate about S10. There was no explanation for Dean becoming a demon. According to the episode, the Mark holds onto the soul. Did the Mark corrupt Dean’s soul? He certainly didn’t go through hundreds of years of torture to become a demon. Crowley obviously knew that his soul had not left his body, was sitting in limbo or he wouldn’t have called out to it. It didn’t seem like Crowley had anything to do with the corruption of the soul. But the writers won’t necessarily adhere to what they’ve suggested in this episode. They might decide anything. They don’t care about the previous seasons’ canon or the explanations that the viewers already have. They attempted to ‘cure’ Crowley, using Sam’s purified blood as a trigger for remorse. As many have pointed out, Father Thompson cured demons without it having anything to do with the trials or closing of Hell, so that’s not an issue. But the writers might have forgotten that as well, and make it into an issue. How can you speculate on anything when it’s all up for grabs?
Season 8 was an object lesson in throwing in a lot of what could’ve been good ideas and watching them sink to the bottom. Season 9, in contrast, was a deliberate attempt to get fan reaction to a number of ideas and see which ones got the strongest reactions. Neither process is what a writer does. A *WRITER* has a clear vision for a story, driven by the characters, filled with clues, twists, development justified by character knowledge and a wealth of understanding for the genre, the history and past of the story to date and the characters to date. A *WRITER* DOES NOT insert themselves into a character, distorting and changing that character. A *WRITER* analyses and writes characters that are true to themselves with all the understanding of a broad life experience they bring for the emotional and mental and physical truths of that character. Both actors were forced this season and last into mentally turning themselves inside out to play their characters who were no longer Dean and Sam. Just because the faces are the same, doesn’t mean it’s the character, as most fans disgruntedly noted throughout the last two seasons.
I don’t think I’ve been shy about expressing my opinion about the people who are pretending to be writers and producers in the SPN offices. The show will continue to be ruined by these people because they, like many of the fans who are more interested in the make-believe subplot of Destiel and the actors’ faces, don’t care what they do to what once a compelling and riveting story. Why should they? Ratings are up, they get paid whether they do a good job or a crappy job, so why work hard?
The common complaints here have been the lack of care with canon and consistency, with characterisation and the complete failure to provide a balanced point of view between the two leads, storylines brought up and forgotten. Maybe the only answer is to tie the writers and showrunner to chairs and force them to watch the first five seasons over and over until they understand what the hell the original show was about and who the characters were. I would be first in line with the ‘cuffs if I thought that their brains had the capacity to actually comprehend what they watch. Unfortunately I don’t believe that’s the case.
Misconceptions by who? I did watch the first episode and I did understand the dilemma that Dean was faced with. I also understood that in Sam’s head he knew that he was going to die imminently. Sam did not want to die. He did not want his death to be reversed because that always meant someone innocent was going to get hurt. That is why he told Death that he did not want to be brought back by supernatural means. When Dean showed up with a plan and Death told Sam it was his choice of course he went with Dean. Sam did not want to die. He trusted Dean and Dean tricked him. And I agree Dean had mere moments to save Sam’s life. Castiel had vouched for the angel. He knew as did we all what it would mean for Sam to be possessed without consent. That is why it was an OMG WTF did you just do Dean moment. I am pretty sure that is what the writer was going for. He hadn’t forgotten Lucifer or Meg, either. The issue wasn’t the possession as bad as that was it was the secrets and the lies. If Dean had told Sam straight away and had been standing there in front of him pleading his case that a good and honorable angel was trying to save his life, well who knows what Sam would have said. But Dean was horrified at the thought that Sam would reject the angel and drop dead right in front of him. So he lied, he kept the secret. This has been the issue for the brothers since the series began. Even John lied and kept secrets. If he had told Sam right from the get that the demon was after him and he knew the demons plans the story might have a different ending. But instead he instilled in his sons the advantages to keeping secrets and lying. In the Purge when Sam said he was ready to die it was clear that he meant, as Dean saw for himself that he would have rather died than kill yet another innocent person. He was angry about the lie. If Dean had told him about the angel then Sam could have possibly prevented Kevins death. It wasn’t that hard of a storyline to follow. And the supposed rift between the brothers was the friendliest in the history of the series. I didn’t think it set up as much drama as everyone is angsting about but I know that is my own opinion. I do actually get the show I have been watching.
Now as far as Sam’s storyline is concerned you have a legitimate argument there. Like last season where Dean was pretty much sidelined (he went out for a beer with Cas while Sam was completing the trials already near death? Yeah I didn’t get that.) Sam hasn’t had a lot to do. Hopefully next season will be more focused on his character in saving Dean.
Thanks for your response, cheryl42. The misconceptions I referred to were by the fans whose comments I’ve read on this site, and on virtually every other forum and blog I’ve brushed across over the last 6 months. So many screaming out how “Sam wanted to die and Dean wouldn’t let him”, “Sam was mature and ready to give up and dastardly Dean made a choice and took away his rights” and so on, ad nauseum. That you understood what was supposed to be universally understood is practically a miracle in itself, since the bulk of comments about the first 1/2 of the season was wall-to-wall comments of escalating hysteria about Sam’s rights and Dean’s evil, evil desire to thwart his brother’s greatest desire.
Secrets and lies. Yes. The secrets and lies issues were largely resolved by adult conversations in season 5. Why the writers chose to regurgitate season 4 without even a decent justification and no clear conflict is what I was complaining about. In the latest season, in canonical script, the writers have reduced Sam to hypocrisy by stating that he’s mad at his brother for lying to him. How the “fanon” of the mystical brotherly bond ever got a toehold is beyond me since from season 1, it was very clear that the brothers didn’t share things with each other and either would lie if they believed if it was “for the best” (Dean lying to Sam about calling his father in ‘Home’) or if they were worried that it would make them look as if they were falling apart (Sam lying to Dean about seeing Jessica in ‘Bloody Mary’). In season 1 and 2, Sam’s trust in Dean was eroded by Dean’s reactions to the psychic abilities. Dean’s trust in Sam was eroded by the fact that in a few cases Sam clearly didn’t feel the same way about family loyalty as he did, something that appeared to come as a shock to him. The background is there, has always been there, but my point was that the writers don’t follow the existing history of the characters, they ignore it and then try to write unjustifiable and often hypocritical (for both characters) scenes that they *think* will replay like the original storylines. Dean didn’t lie to Sam about the Mark of Cain, yet the writers had Sam doing absolutely nothing about it … that’s not in character, and it’s a waste of a perfectly good dramatic conflict between them, one far more compelling than Sam’s unexplained furies which came and went.
Your points are clearly and well made and add veracity to something I’ve felt for a long time, that a section of the fanbase have distorted the writer’s view of the story and characters far more significantly than even bad writing has. If you haven’t seen/read the opinions that have flown around, doing the justification work the writers should have been doing, and overall muddying every single thin plotline by trying to pretend that certain scenes/scripted dialogue didn’t exist or worse, did exist, when it didn’t, then you’re lucky. It seemed obvious to me that the online arguments kept the writers changing the reasons for Sam’s anger with his brother, but *still* the writers didn’t take the very obvious path to correct all of it by allowing Sam a single POV moment. One conversation, especially with a secondary character could’ve done wonders to give meaning to the situation. I can only assume, at the risk of assuming anything, that the writers felt that would limit them somehow in being able to use Sam as a provocateur in future situations.
Exactly ,There is a difference between someone wanting to die and someone when faced with Death wanting to go without repurcussions
double post
[quote] not the actual characters of Death, Bobby and Dean. Was that not clear? [/quote]No it was not.While Dean and Bobby were clearly Sam’s construct it was not clear in death’s case.The assumption you make condires bobby and Dean, and Death with the same yardstick.[quote]I’m sure the production team will be disappointed that they went to trouble of colourising the scenes to make it clear and some viewers still had trouble figuring it out.[/quote]It shows the writing team’s incompetance.[quote]not out of some misguided attempt to control his brother … but because his life had been about being the guardian, the protector of Sam, and as in Cold Oak, he couldn’t face failing at that job.[/quote]Because Dean went over board with this”protection” he became controlling.Too much of anything is bad.[quote]Dean cannot ever stop trying to do his job, the job he took on involuntarily at four years’ old, when he carried Sam from the house, the job that he became compelled to do as he grew older. It wasn’t a “choice” for him, although he told himself it was. It was also one of the few moments in the last 2 years he was in-character.
[/quote]It was in character yes but about Dean’s controlling tendencies.If Dean knew better and whatnot similar case can be made about John who the fandom has no trouble maligning.[quote]And just as a small aside, does anyone think that a doctor, vowed to save lives, or a paramedic, or even just a civilian on the street, would let a man die if there was any way he could save him?[/quote]If you are talking without that person getting possesed then yeah they would.[quote]Dean figured reasonably that it would be easier to argue the case with Sam, easier to convince him that he had a chance at a life, if he wasn’t dead.[/quote]Dean tricked Sam there is a difference.[quote]In any case, Dean knew full well that he would have to face the consequences of his actions when Sam was healed. He argued with Gadreel about telling Sam straight away, only backing down (and realising with even more clarity at that moment how deeply he’d enmired himself and his brother in a deal that would only get worse) when Gadreel pointed out that if Sam was angry and ejected him, his brother would still die. Lose-lose. It was obvious that Dean realised how bad it was going to be, lying to Sam after all they’d been through with the trials, but again, he didn’t have a choice – failing again was not an option he could face.[/quote]And surprisingly there was no apology from Dean if he had realized all those things.[quote]At no time, was it shown or implied that Sam had the memories of his conversations with himself while he was comatose in the hospital.
From Sam’s conscious view, he chose to abort the trial to close Hell, to live. Dean presented a case for living, SAM MADE THE DECISION. No one forced him. Then he woke up in the car and was gung-ho about doing something about the fallen angels. [/quote]If Sam had no memory then how does Sam KNOW that he made an INFORMED decision.The thing is we are saying Dean tricked him not forced him.There is a difference.[quote]It was a writer error that he suddenly decided he was ready to die,[/quote]No it was not an error.It was all 100%Sam.[quote]Sam had a real and valid reason to be furious with Dean for the angel possession and for allowing Crowley in. Not only because Gadreel killed Kevin, but because the last time Sam was possessed by an angel, it was friggin’ Lucifer. It’s difficult to see how that 1-ton anvil of meaning could have been overlooked by both writers and fans, but somehow it seems to have been. That was a solid, justified reason for a conflict between the brothers, but it was dissipated by the ongoing and non-justified crap about Sam wanting to die or about Dean lying (and that was truly, stinkingly rich, given the entire events of seasons 4 and 6! Apparently the writers didn’t watch those either).
[/quote]agree.
Well probably many fans who post on this website have different interpretations of the show than others. It depends on your own personal POV I suppose. I don’t share your interpretation of the show. Doesn’t make me wrong, doesn’t make me right. I can be happy or unhappy with some aspects of the show but still understand why some will disagree with my interpretation. It is my own. This post is in response to Are You Kidding not AnonymousN. The posts get a little jumbled sometimes.
Just wanted to point out Dean didn’t willingly volunteer the info he had the mark ofr Caine. Sam told Dean about Gads’ grace then noticed the marc on Deasn arm and asked about it, asking if he had been hurt. Dean covered it up then confessed about the mark. I had the impression that if Sam hadn’t noticed and asked, Dean would never have told Sam.
Season 9 got off to a great start. Kevin’s death took my breath away. I was so excited by midseason (910-913). The boys were fighting about something substantial. I thought now we’re going to see Carver’s version of “mature” Winchesters work out their issues. I expected a more equal “mature” relationship to emerge as we watched the brothers discuss/debate. They introduced the MOC and my mind went wild with the possibilities. But NO! Whatever I was expecting week after week after week, never went anywhere. Not another word about the possession or the MOC for weeks.
The possession was finally white-washed in 921. I remember when possession was a big no-no for hunters, now it’s simple “house-sharing”. Turns out the possession wasn’t about Sam, it was about Dean. Even Gadreel got more play, character development out of that possession than Sam Winchester. And with the end of the possession Sam had NOTHING to do for the rest of the season. He spent the season being knocked out, tied up, or sent away on empty errands. A plot device.
This season was all about Dean and his decisions. At least he had a storyline to compete with all the angel crap. IMO Dean’s MOC could have been so much more had they involved Sam and Cass. I found it unbelievable that Sam, who is normally the one bugging Dean to talk, suddenly fell silent (OOC). And Cass, who obviously knew the mark was bad news never once showed any real concern. Dean couldn’t (and probably wouldn’t if he could) tell them anything because he didn’t know anything since he refused to listen to Cain’s warning. But it would have been nice and more “in character” for Sam and Cass to ask, show some interest, do some research.
In that last scene in 922 Cass was more concerned about whether Dean believed he would kill angels than the mark. Why? Because they were too busy showing that Cass gave up his entire army for his beloved Dean (fanservice). That, in contrast to casting a shadow over Sam’s love in Purge. When I think of all the reviews I read where the writer felt the need to point out that Sam still loves his brother and would save him, I want to scream. Nothing more than manufactured drama to set up Dean’s storyline and throw Sam under the “Sam doesn’t love his brother” bus again. Same as in season 8 with the purgatory bus with no real explanation.
I’ve never been invested in the angel wars. They were far more interesting when fought off screen. But cutting Sam and Dean dying/grieving scenes to make way for Metatron monologues makes me cray-cray. Whose show is it anyway? I fell for Sam Winchester in the pilot and then got hooked on the brothers’ talks. Jeremy Carver managed to strip both away in S9. No brothers talking and Sam Winchester disappeared before my eyes. Even the music I loved went missing???
I was unfamiliar with the “fourth wall” term until Meta Fiction. They broke the wall and spoke directly to the viewers and I took it personally. I never felt so gutted after watching an episode of Supernatural or anything else. Not only that, but Meta Fiction was loaded with fanservice and as a Sam fan, I got nothing, sent away when the fun started. I waited 3 weeks to see Sam confront Gadreel, but NO. Sent away on an errand. And then to add insult to injury, we were told that Sam’s one POV line was cut, but Robbie Thompson said Jared is great at speaking with his eyes and body language. He’s right. But then he puts long, whole, complete, vicious sentences in Sam’s mouth via Gadreel. Gee thanks. At that moment I had a sinking feeling that I would not like where they were going. I was right.
Once they broke that wall and started talking directly to the audience, I took it all personally. Meta Fiction felt like the Show threw a party for the fans and I was not invited. When Dean declared his dictatorship and virtually told Sam to sit down and shut up, I took it personally. When Sam walked away so did I. I had no intention of watching the finale until Jared and Jensen did those interviews the Monday before.
The finale felt good. It felt like Supernatural. But then upon every re-watch I found myself feeling more disappointment and anger. I realized they made me wait 12 episodes to learn Dean’s becoming a demon (I figured that when he took the mark), 13 episodes to learn about Sam’s nightmares, 10 episodes to hear eight little words: “I know”, “I lied”, and “I’m proud of us.” Too little, too late.
As I recall all the spoilers before Meta Fiction were about Dean and Cass’ storylines. I never imagined reading those spoilers that Sam would be so silenced and sidelined and I would be so disappointed in my favorite show week after week. Going forward to S10 I still see Dean and Cass have storylines. I suspect Crowley will be training/corrupting Dean. One would think that Sam would automatically have a role to play in his brother becoming a demon, but that’s what I thought about the MOC. So I’m not optimistic about S10.
the more I re-watch season 9, the madder I get.
dean not going to get Cas then MAKING HIM LEAVE once he got to the MOL BUNKER.
:(:(:(:(:(:(
So I am not going to post this in the Season awards section out of deference to the happy people. I was thinking, here is a line in “the Frighteners” where one of the characters (who is dead and falling to bits) says thoughtfully ‘When a man’s jawbone drops off it’s time to reassess the situation.’
I have just completed as much of the voting in the best of supernatural this season as I could even remotely agree to. And I am looking at the results which show what a reasonably balanced (not too biased I mean) group of enthusiastic fans see as having been important this season. Then take into account various awards which have happened, and commentaries about which of the actors/characters is, alone, the heart of the show … and also looking at the group of fans (many of whom admit they don’t actually watch the show they just shout at the writers on Twitter) with their totally obsessive grasp of a fictional relationship on the show (which gets played with when the writers can’t be bothered plotting). I see how much of all that that has gotten into the awards … and so I think that jawbones may be falling off … and so, I reassess.
‘I lied’ and ‘I’m proud of us’ are not quotes, they are excuses for running out of time to complete a plot. The fact that two of the other quotes are from Crowley says a lot to me too. I can’t work out what the emphasis of ‘worst ending to an episode’ is either. Does it mean ‘worst’ or ‘ thing I most disagree with’ or ‘thing that apparently showed that the brothers need to reassess their relationship so that they can be better for each other but now just proves that Sam doesn’t care’ or ‘thing that was said that needed to be said that the character is now being vilified for’ or ‘poor thing he was only doing his best and nobody appreciates that’. (I know whether you are a Samgirl or a Deangirl those two last comments can be read interchangeably for each brother 😉 however it does appear that the show is going for “Dean was right, Sam was wrong, nuance be damned” so, whatever).
Anyway I am saying to myself, ‘yes it is time to reassess the situation.’ The show has finally tipped over into losing entirely what made it special (for me) and I am sorry to see it gone.
A last point, sorry, this is the ‘I am entitled to disagree with the season’ thread. If you don’t agree with my point, feel free to argue it (or ignore it, or agree with me, whatever). But don’t tell me the show would seem better to me if I would only feel happier about it, please. That doesn’t make any sense. I have given it two seasons and I feel that there is justice in noting the hole in the story where Sam used be. If it needs to be noted loudly and repeatedly to be heard over the ‘we need Dean and Castiel to have sex NOW! (or else)’ crowd **, then that is just how it has to be. As Sam becomes less and less of a character and more and more of Dean’s possession (a precious ring for example) Dean will look less like Frodo and more like Gollum (he doesn’t want what he wants for any real meaning, it is just an obsession, that will get /gets him killed). It is in everyone’s interest for the characterization of both brothers to be real – not plots and mytharcs, [i]people[/i]. I don’t want archetypes I want Sam and Dean back.!
What I do have is a strong affection for this show (for both brothers and even their feckless angel when he isn’t actively trying to break Sam) and a wish that the writers would pay attention to the overall structure and bring back the characterization, the CHARACTERS …. and let them finish sentences.
I really do wish that the new season will tie all this together and say ‘see, you just needed to be patient’ and there is a tiny part of my fangirl heart that still believes it, but it it is very tiny now.
This has been my weekly cry of despair … thank you for listening …
(this got an extensive rewrite cause run-on sentences are my weak point, sorry)
EDIT 2 ** not that I am saying people on this site are shouting for this. But the noise about it generally is drowning out the actual characters (all three of them).
eilf!!! Brava! I couldn’t agree with you more.
[quote]’I lied’ and ‘I’m proud of us’ are not quotes, they are excuses for running out of time to complete a plot. [/quote]
Truth!
The thing that irks me most about “I lied” was how it caused Sam’s original POV to become so totally convoluted and ultimately altered. Sam not only never lied about being willing to allow Dean to die, he actually never said that to begin with…. but that’s what Dean heard and therefore that’s what ends up becoming the truth whether it was ever actually truth to begin with, and Sam’s “I lied” makes it look like he WAS lying about being OK with Dean dying when he never actually said it at all. And, “I’m proud of us?” What is Dean proud of exactly? That Sam inexplicably refused to look for him and left him in purgatory for a year for no logical reason and let Kevin twist in the wind as well, or that Sam supposedly is OK with letting Dean die? or that Dean got himself into a huge mess by being a coward? or that he LOST to Metatron because he sucker punched his brother out of a fight after Sam had committed to whole heartedly and without reserve, agreeing to do whatever Dean needed him to do? Is Dean proud that he forced an angel into his brother without his permission and despite his brother’s feelings in the matter? Or maybe he’s proud of the fact that Sam supposedly doesn’t want to be his brother any more? Perhaps Dean is proud that innocent people are now in more danger FROM the Winchesters than they are the from the things that the Winchesters hunt? I don’t find much for either brother to be proud of, and that quote came across to me as trite and cheap. Is this JC’s idea of a resolution? It took 2 seconds to say and resolved nothing. It was a Hallmark moment and nothing more.
I know that we are in the middle of a three year arc and that we don’t know what’s coming, but the first 2/3rd’s of the journey have been ruined for me because of the destruction of Sam as a character. It began by making him act TOTALLY out of character by having him not look for Dean and then not adequately explaining why. This is followed by the botched “love affair” with the unlikeable Amelia that went nowhere and served no purpose other than to make Sam look unsympathetic, it revealed nothing about Sam’s character or motivation making his reasoning for not looking for his brother doubly hard to understand. Then Sam takes on the trials which I thought would somehow end up being about resolving some of Sam’s issues but turned out to be, just like the ‘not looking’ thing, about pushing Dean into the head space the plot required of him in season 9. I thought the Zeke/Gadreel possession was supposed to be about Sam too, but did we learn anything about Sam during that time? Any insight about his fears, hopes, dreams, his love for his brother his place in the world? Nope, it was all about Dean and further pushing him into being willing to take on the MoC; pumping up his guilt levels to epic proportions to make him “vulnerable” and thereby making it Sam’s fault. Then finally midseason, Gadreel is forced out of Sam….we’re going to learn about Sam now, right? He and Dean are going to talk about their long standing issues, and Dean’s refusal to let Sam decide his own fate and his own life right? Why given his life of being manipulated that he is so set against possession? How it felt to be possessed? How it felt to kill Kevin, right? We are going to learn all that and more too!!! Sam’s going to state fully and in complete sentences WHY he thinks that the Winchester way creates more problems between he and Dean than they fix! Wrong! Dean gets to wallow pathetically in his own vaaaaast pool of guilt and to use that to do something foolish (still Sam’s fault) and Sam gets to be sidelined, ignored, unsympathetic, unobservant, ineffectual and WRONG as usual. He also gets to say that he lied when he never did, thus making him a liar.
So, I get that we are “on a journey” and that there is a “three year plan” and that “we don’t know about what’s coming up” and “that they are learning about one another by walking in each other’s shoes” (although I don’t see how, since what Dean’s going through is NOTHING like what Sam went through, and Sam STILL seems unwilling to subvert Dean’s deepest wishes or kill an innocent to save Dean) and that “Sam will save Dean in the end,” that’s all true, I get it, I understand. But the trite saying “half the fun is getting there” is also true, and for me the ride to this point has been a HUGE disappointment, so even if somehow TPTB manage to in some small way salvage this mess, it will still be a loss for me as the pay off won’t erase 3 years of character assassination, canon massacre and poor plotting while getting there.
So, thanks eilf for putting this out there; I agree with every word. I know it’s not popular right now to gripe and you and I seem to be in the minority about how we feel. I was one of the staunch defenders of season 8. Although I hated the ‘not looking’ debacle, when I saw that it was Sam taking on the trials I felt that that made up for such a poor beginning. Then there was the beautiful “Sacrifice” and the very innovative possession story that held such promise seemingly for letting us learn a little something about Sam and maybe also let Dean learn something about Sam too. Little did I know that nothing Sam has done, or any of his story lines since the start of season 8 have actually been for or about Sam; it wasn’t until the MoC (a storyline in and of itself that I liked quite a bit) that I began to see that everything has actually been about Dean… to push Dean towards being able and willing to accept the mark. Ultimately it didn’t matter if Sam’s story arcs made sense for Sam because they weren’t about him. I want Dean to have a good story, it’s not that I don’t, but it’s been at the expense of Sam so completely that I now resent Dean as a character when it’s really the writers I should be angry with for being unable to come up with an interesting story for one brother without it being at the expense of the other brother. Bad Boys took Sam’s “wanting normal” and resentment of his father and gave it to Dean (and managed to make a child Sam look uncaring to boot). The MoC cain took Sam’s altered season 3 plot line about becoming a demon and gave it to Dean. We learned how difficult Zeke/Gad’s possession of Sam was on Dean. Sam isn’t allowed to finish a sentence, hasn’t had what little he’s managed to say explored in any meaningful way and has had things he’s said misunderstood and then the misunderstanding has been allowed to become canon and truth. It’s beyond frustrating and having him save Dean in the end won’t erase any of what’s come before.
🙂 I don’t think you guys are in the minority at all. I think your opinions are the majority here. Some us of don’t see the story the same way. I was talking to Eilf this morning about it. If Sam came off as so wrong why as a Dean (leaning) fan don’t I feel that Dean was right and Sam was in the wrong, as shown by the show. Shouldn’t I feel predisposed to thinking Sam was wrong and Dean was “right”? I just didn’t read it that way. I am not arguing here at all, I just find it very interesting how we all see the story so differently. I am sad for both of them. That was my take away. The half sentences were very frustrating in that it left so much up to us fans to fill in the meaning through our personal perspectives and disappointments about the direction of the characters and show.
Well I would say you listened to me while I went off on a major tangent – that is only how I see what the story is telling us and not what is just storyline – which is generally the way of things with me 😉
And, for which, I thank you!
What are friends for? 😉 Plus you let me get in a few words here and there. Thank YOU.
😉
That is interesting that you mention the half sentences Leah. In my rewatch of the series in Scarecrow (the first big fight) Sam and Dean are on the phone talking in half sentences about how sorry they are that they fought. It was funny that seems to be the argument now. These guys are still talking in Winchester speak all these years later.
True Cheryl, these two have never been chatty with each other when it comes to personal and emotional issues. That is just their default setting. Moments of heartfelt conversations are few and far between which is what make them more powerful. I guess after this long season of miscommunications and mistakes a couple of finished sentences would have been nice. For some clarity in meaning if nothing else. I agree Cheryl much of what they do, for better or worse, is out of love. 🙁
Sorry to be a downer, but now it’s only Sam who’s given the half sentences and it’s Dean who mishears them or misinterprets them and then uses that against Sam. Then Sam’s original meaning is completely lost by everyone including Sam and Dean, the fans and also the writers who then take Dean’s misinterpretation as fact for the remainder of the season causing Sam to get blamed for something he never even said. Finally, even Sam can’t remember that he never said what he’s being accused of saying and also ends up coping to the misinterpretation as though that’s what he meant all along; hence the much loathed (by me anyway) “I lied.” It’s crazily convoluted. :p
No downer E! I just saw it all a little differently. Not that I didn’t have my own issues and quibbles with certain aspects of the season and finale. As one of the reviewers here once said, we all bring our own stuff to the table and that colors how we filter it all. I find it fascinating how many factions of the fandom there are and all of us have our own take and it is often at odds with other factions who are just as passionate. Such is our fandom. 🙂
Ah Leah. This is but a small, small, small and sheltered (and very special) part of the fandom. I think the vast majority of fans out there on the ‘boards’ wouldn’t agree with me at all. If you read other boards (I try not to, but sometimes I do) almost all of the sympathy is with Dean; “poor Dean was driven to taking the Mark because he has nothing left to live for.” “He is so tormented by guilt that he needs to punish himself.” “His brother drove him to it.” Sam is once again being eviscerated and all of the sympathy in the world is being heaped on poor, poor Dean, the brave and burdened hunter with a terrible brother.
My opinion in the matter is that TPTB wrote the whole set up so that we WOULD sympathize with Dean or I think we were/are supposed to. I don’t as much as I’d like to and maybe other fans don’t either at least here anyway, but the veritable MOUNTAIN of insight, angst and manpain that we got for Dean only tells me that we were indeed supposed to sympathize with him, fear for him, and root for him. Why put an episode like Bad Boys into this season otherwise… it’s not like Sam needed a reminder about what-all Dean’s done for him over the course of their lives; Sam’s known that and has thanked Dean for that countless times already. So, why was the episode even written if not to remind US how awesome Dean is and to drum up sympathy for him prior to him going off the rails? Why have Sam say such caustic things to Dean in The Purge instead of allowing us to see Sam’s pain and the effects of the possession and how it hurt him? All we got to see was Sam’s anger and to hear him only half explain his side of things in a very negative and unsympathetic way. Why do such a thing; make one side of the argument so detailed and sympathetic and make the other side not only unsympathetic, but also cryptic to the point of being unintelligible? I think it’s because we ARE supposed to sympathize with Dean’s plight and we were being spoon fed exactly how to feel by TPTB so that we don’t have to do something icky and taxing like think about it and decide for ourselves. Can’t have that now, can we.
I guess I am only saying that I didn’t reach the same conclusions as you (and others) have reached about the TPTB and their motivations. Or the idea that Sam was shown to be in the wrong at every turn and every character on the show was reinforcing that idea. I had a whole different read on all of that. Not necessarily the right read just different. As I was trying to say, you would think I as a Dean fan would be seeing fault with Sam and thinking Dean was wholly in the right but I didn’t get that message. It is just something I mulled over no biggy.:)
Edit to add: I have ventured out to other boards and scurried back here, it was ugly out there. I didn’t stay around to take a poll but I saw a lot of character bashing. Not limited to Sam. It was Sam vs Dean in the extreme. And Misha/Cas got a thorough thrashing as well. Just ugh.
I think we were suppose to understand Dean if not sympathize with him , such detailed look at him regardless of TPTB motivations it would be hard to avoid that result.The episode Bad Boys was not a particular favourite of mine too manipulative and in the wrong place considering what Dean had done but Adam wanted to write a ‘love letter’ to the character . Sam well there is a whole load of issues in how he is approached but the season has gone so there is little that can be done about it.
Sharon, I do understand that, I do. I think the biggest problem is not that Dean was supposed to be understood but that for whatever reason Sam actions came off as uncaring to some fans. Maybe it was the writing IDK. I CLEARLY understood why Sam was upset and what he meant in every conversation he had with Dean. I clearly SAW in Sam’s every action this season the love and concern he has for his brother despite his anger. I think we were supposed to see both sides and understand each brothers perspective. I didn’t see other characters side with Dean, just saw them wanting the brothers to work it out. I always love young Winchester flashback episodes and Bad Boys was no exception. My feeling about it was the usual sadness for their childhood. I think it was supposed to remind us that Dean wasn’t a monster in spite of his bad choices. I saw a lot of use of the word “vile” in regards to what Dean did. I didn’t see it as a slap against Sam. In that episode and the finale I saw it all come back to the unwavering love of two brothers who still try and fight the good fight despite all they have endured and the mistakes they have made. I think that is what Dean was “proud” of. Maybe my take is completely 100% wrong, who knows? I just think that’s what the writers were shooting for, not blame. Maybe the writers and TPTB don’t like Sam and want to show him in the worst possible light and are deliberately destroying his character, IDK, but it doesn’t make sense to me. That they have a difficult time writing for the character of Sam makes better sense. Maybe I just choose to see things through rose colored glasses, it works for me.
No Leah your take is 100% correct as far as I’m concerned. These guys are not supposed to be seen as bad or evil. They are two tragic hero’s whose decisions sometimes (or always) come back to bite them in the butt. I also watch the show for what the writers intended so I don’t always catch the slights against one character or the other that some see. I really think they love both the J’s equally. I doubt they are deliberately disregarding Jared/Sam in favor of Jensen/Dean. It is just where the story went this year, as Jeremy Carver said before the season started, Dean’s choices were going to drive the mythology. And Dean’s choices couldn’t have turned out worse for him. 🙁
Hi Leah, I get what you are saying, and like you I too could see what Sam was going through. I understood Sam, but I think that’s because I wanted to and I spent considerable time in between episodes trying to discern his POV, justifying his words for myself, because very little (if any) was actually shown, and what little did end up onscreen absolutely did not help with understanding him as it was so cryptic and conflicting as to be incomprehensible. Furthermore, Sam’s words and actions did not gel together, he was inconstant; how can you root for someone’s POV when his words and actions don’t match? His words were cruel but his actions were supportive; talk about mixed messages, the dichotomy in Sam’s words and deeds were never explained either, they just remained inconsistent without any insight into why; Dean didn’t understand it, so it doesn’t surprise me that many fans didn’t either. Dean’s POV however was consistent and detailed throughout; his words and actions matched and were further fleshed out by episodes like Bad Boys which played directly to Dean’s character development, past history and mindset. Where was Sam’s version of Bad Boys, that illustrated how much he was willing to give up for Dean when they were kids or even how much Sam missed Dean in that particular episode? We saw chapter an verse as to how much Dean’s decisions weighed on him; it was addressed in practically every episode. So, where was Sam’s character development that detailed his suffering from nightmares and flashbacks of what Gadreel had been doing while inside of him; the killing Abner and April, Kevin and the soldiers? There wasn’t any. Dean made decisions, and acted on those decisions and his mindset was outlined in exacting detail so that we could understand full-well why Dean did what he did and how he felt about it. Why wasn’t Sam shown the same consideration as a character? Why did he “lie” and say what he said in The Purge? Because he was hurt? Very likely yes (and incredibly petty and immature to boot IMO) but that’s not what was shown; he was not once shown to regret his words until he said “I lied” in 9×23; there was zero indication that Sam was lying, so why believe him now? The imbalance in the storytelling is strikingly bad to me. Of course as a fan, it would be much easier to sympathize with the character whose story makes sense.. how could you not? And Dean’s story makes sense, while Sam’s does not, because there hasn’t been nearly enough time or detail devoted to it. Furthermore, Sam’s one issue for fighting with Dean, the possession, was whitewashed to such an extent that it made him look mean and ungrateful to be mad about it. Since Sam seemingly suffered NOT AT ALL due to the possession, his stance for his entire argument against it is weakened, making it even harder for anyone to sympathize with him. I mean, what on earth is Sam bitching about? So, Dean had him possessed against his will and used trickery to get it to happen, then lied to him for months afterwards, big deal. Sam’s alive and healthy and suffered no ill effects at all seemingly (oh, except for one small comment about nightmares that was uttered in the LAST episode of the season and not shown once; way to water down the impact) so, what’s Sam got to be so upset about? He wasn’t harmed, he was sent into a nice safe place inside his own mind while Gadreel was there, it was like “shared housing” like having a roommate; it was more like a club med vacation than a possession. Sam wasn’t even aware of the passage of time, so what’s he got to be mad about? The show did not support his POV. It all makes Sam look like an ungrateful dick for being angry about it while Dean, who’s POV was supported to the point of overkill, ends up looking like a hero for doing something so utterly despicable and then refusing to apologize for it.
Kudos to you for seeing past all the terrible writing, plotting and characterization, but I fear the vast majority of fans took everything they saw at face value; hence the Sam flambé all over the boards. Thankfully, many of the fans here have been able to extrapolate Sam’s pain and suffering from what little we were given, so kudos to them as well. But what was SHOWN on the TV was Dean’s suffering and guilt in episode after episode while Sam got very little attention and pretty much NO POV whatsoever; hell, he was barely allowed to complete a sentence. There was no equality in the story telling either this season or last, all of which leads me to believe that we are supposed to be on Dean’s side in this, that that was the PTB’s intention. I am not on Dean’s side, but once again, I am in the minority in the general scheme of things, and it’s only here that I have found any like minded people who feel the same as I do about things. And those people who don’t agree with my assessment (which is your prerogative of course!:D) are at least polite about it. That’s why I only post here.
Hi E, I would just like to say in response to your comment of “ends up looking like a hero for doing something so utterly despicable and then refusing to apologize for it.” is that I don’t think Dean was made to look like a hero in the least. On the contrary he was seen as doing something “vile” and “despicable”. I saw it as Dean having split seconds to make a tough decision and he made the wrong one. Then he compounded it by believing that if he talked to Sam, he would eject the angel and drop dead. Heroic? No! Despicable and vile? Also no, IMO. I wasn’t on Dean’s side either. Though I wrestled with it, having been at several end of life situations in my family. However I could never use those words to describe either brothers actions no matter what they have done, I just can’t, as it is often done out of love even if it is misguided. I can’t say that about anything demon Dean might do though! 🙂
I think you have hit the nail E.The thing is in season 4 when Sam was driving the mytharc they did not silence Dean till last episode.They gave us every Dean POV about the situation and Sam’s was withheld till he told Dean.That means till Dean knows we the fans should not know.The only consolation was that about DB we came to know before Dean (one of those once in a blue moon instances which we have to wait holding our breath till we turn blue)
Now that Dean is driving the mytharc I hoped maybe..maybe this time we will get Sam’s POV at the beginning and they will keep Dean mysterious…But as Kevin said I had to listen to Dean angst while Sam’s POV was squashed and brushed aside, to make a feeble attempt and have Sam say about having nightmares.Come on how can they show it..poor precious Dean will be vilified..we can’t have that, can we?Now as if to rub salt on our wounds many important Jared scenes were cut and that means even less of Sam.Personally I think they see Sam as plot device rather than a main character whose veiw point should be shown.To make it even worse..they made Kevin say to Sam to get over it..to Dean I understand but to say that to Sam…wow jus wow,Charlie seeing Dean when talking about saving the world and then turn around to Sam and say that horrible thing,Then comes Garth and his abhorrent intro of Sam.Not one supporting character who sympathized with Sam’s possession.Then followed by Castiel telling Dean about too much heart …isn’t it sooooooooooo wonderful that when it is Dean or Cas it is tooo much heart not by a demon or some angel but an angel who is known to be good.If Sam was dead I would have wished the show best of luck and stopped watching …but watching Sam being butchered …..I have lost whatever hopes I had about TPTB.This was in my opinion the worst season ever even sinking lower than season 7 ( pacing was the worst of all).I do not think the situation is going to change.
[quote]But the trite saying “half the fun is getting there” is also true, and for me the ride to this point has been a HUGE disappointment, so even if somehow TPTB manage to in some small way salvage this mess, it will still be a loss for me as the pay off won’t erase 3 years of character assassination, canon massacre and poor plotting while getting there.[/quote]
thanks E in an nutshell that is my problem with this all 🙂
I wanted to just say because I realize how it comes over. I don’t have any argument with the awards themselves. I am not saying they are biased or that Alice has picked the wrong things. She has just used the feedback that she got and the feedback is how people saw the season. I don’t have an argument with people’s preferences. I am saying that the result reinforced for me how far from enjoyable the season actually was.
And this is where I am:
[img]http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwzmjjwzzC1qchzcgo1_500.png[/img]
Eww!:D As gross as Dr. Pepper!;)
HEY!!! 🙂
there is ectoplasm being sneezed out of someone’s ears at one point. This is not a subtle movie, funny though. 😮
Hi E,eilf,Leah,and hell everyone. I don’t know if you’ll see this since I’m not sure how the new comment section works, but I decided to stick a toe back in. Sorry, I disappeared, people who might care.:p I was once again feeling the exact same way with Season 9 that I did with Season 8. I saw all these people who loved it online (though not in my family-they’ve largely stopped watching-and they are Dean-oriented) they way I used to. Before I started in the fandom. I was quickly loosing enthusiasm and I wondered if perhaps it was negatively coloring my view of the show. But I pretty much stopped reading anything but tweets from people I follow and even with that my opinion is still almost identical to you all (except you Leah sweetie-sorry I think Sam was negatively portrayed-again). Once again E and eilf could have been writing my thoughts. I adored Dean and yet I was almost becoming resentful of him because once again he was given the sympathetic POV and Sam was left without one. And I don’t understand it. Or see why they and others can’t see it. I tried to think what peak we got into Sam this season and was pretty much at a loss.
And again the spoilers are making me both excited and scared. Honestly they could still fix things for me (mostly), but I’m almost positive they won’t. But still cool promos keep luring the hope back it. And a few tidbits from the meet and greets have me on the verge of excitement than I remember the last 2 seasons of bitter disappointments. SPOILERS – I Guess. The DemonDean seems very hot and awesome. And I’m relieved that Sam is doing something to save Dean. I hope is that they will reference Sam’s purgatory time loss in a good way and ie. Showing us flashbacks of Sam almost going darkside last time and stopping himself and cut into Sam not stopping himself this time. My fear is that instead it’s going to be used as a “fix” but like “See Sam girls you got what you wanted-stop bitching” without ever explaining what happened before or saying why there is a difference. And to extend that fear that he’ll once again be thrown under the bus without a POV. He will almost literally be damned when he doesn’t and damned when he does. Sigh.
I’ve missed you guys. Great posts. Talk to you later.
Kelly!!!! Hi, so very glad to see you back! I have missed your voice here. Hey we don’t always see eye to eye. No big deal to me. I have never see Sam in a terribly negative light! Can’t help it, I love both of those characters so much I will always waver back and forth between seeing Sam’s viewpoint and Dean’s, no matter what. I have agreed with the view that Sam’s POV has been sorely missing however. I hope the new season has some things all fans can enjoy. I am excited to see how they deal with all this! So come back and we can all hash it out no matter what our views are. I have always enjoyed how you express yourself and your ability to respectfully debate others. See you around Kelly!:)
Hi Leah and st50, I’ve missed you guys. Sorry I disappeared -hope you didn’t assume I was dead (Ha! See what I did there?! ) Leah, yeah different opinions are GOOD things.
As long as everyone is respectful which you always are. Is there a way to get comments in emails? Or is that option not available anymore?
Ha!:) I never had them go to my email so I don’t know. What does the subscribe thing below the box mean? Is that it? Maybe someone will see this and tell us?;)
Yes, the subscribe thing, ADK the little envelope at the top of the thread will send comments to your email when you click it. Also, if you comment there is a box with Subscribe next to it. That will also give you all the comments on that thread sent to your email. NOTE: I always logon to post, so I don’t know if these work (or even exist) if you aren’t logged on when you post.
Thanks Percy!
Thank you!
Hi Kelly!
Great to see you back. Have missed you.
🙂
Kelly!!! Glad to see you back!! Hope you don’t go away again, I love your posts! Yes, these past two season have been a trial for us poor Sam fans hasn’t it. I am hoping against hope for some Sam POV in season 10 and maybe some teeny, tiny, one liner resolutions (JC is good at those) to some of Sam’s issues in the past two years. I am not holding out any hope really, but I’ll lap up any tiny crumbs they throw us like the starving man(woman) I am; just like the single insightful line about nightmares in 9×23. When it came to Sam insight this year, that was it. It seems to me that JC and Co have decided that the show is about Dean and only Dean. Sam has been reduced to a plot point for Dean. His story lines aren’t actually for him or about him, they are about motivating Dean, so who cares if what Sam does seems out of character or he speaks in half sentences or his emotions are not fully explained, none of it is about him anyway, so lets just get back to Dean. I am beyond tired of it. The writing has become formulaic TV 101 writing; Hero? – Dean. Sidekick? – Sam. Villians? – Crowly, Abbadon, Metatron etc.. Side characters who display interesting traits? – Cas, Jodi, Garth. Boss or Father figure? – well that WAS Bobby and briefly Frank until they were both killed off. That spot is vacant as of now but will probably be filled sooner or later with someone who only has scenes or connects with Dean. Sorry, do I sound bitter? 😉
Hi Kelly! *waves*. Maybe this season will be better! Maybe there are such things as unicorns! Maybe when Dean gets on to berating Sam for whatever Sam sould-destroying bad thing that Sam did to rescue him Sam will haul off and give him a black eye (which is what Dean has wanted him to do since Season 2) and then we can all move on and pretend last season never happened … (this is good wine)
In the meantime: [img]https://33.media.tumblr.com/16106d3539a0ce7a14927b0d11894d03/tumblr_mlwy4jbFAH1qetpu1o1_500.gif[/img]
here’s a slo-mo hug from back in the day
It’s very interesting how different we see some episodes here. And it’s SO nice nobody’s killing each other for having a different opinion. Thanks for that!!!
I was on other so calles fansides and it was terrible. There was a Dean side and a Sam side and each of them are only seeing THEIR hero to be the best. And sorry to say it most of them are Dean fans who mix the actors and the character together. Something like Jensen/Dean is the better actor so deserves/needs the better storyline becaus he carries the show. Jared/Sam just looks pretty, nothing more. I wonder if those people can see the difference between the actors and their character…
Maybe I don’t understand everything you all wrote correct, because english is not my first linguage. But what I DO understand is that YOU call can see the difference between the actors and their character, so thanks for that.
I never see it that way that the writers and TBTP (by the way who is this?!:() want Dean to be “better” but it is a interesting thought. But it turned out bad because most of the fans (like me ) don’t get it. Even when JC said he worked on a 3 season story it’s hard to understand that after writing someone so much out of charcter like they did it with Sam the fans “remember ” all that things. Me here, in germany, we can only watch season 8 on paytv or on DVD. It took over a year to finally see season 8. Wonder when we get the chance to see season 9…
So I still hope there’s a way that even I get a chance to see/understan the big picture of season 8-10. There are some big holes to fill.
-the Amelia/Sam “love-affair” why he did what he did
-the trails and not closing the doors of hell
-Dean said in the beginning of season 9 when he praid the angel who would help him he owes him one. So what happend with this promis?
-Sam was pissed, I get it. He abandonend Dean, and everyone scratched theirs heads. Why he’s doing what he’s doing…
-we are not brothers anymore, we are only partners… the same question.
There’re some more holes, but these are the most important.
let’s see what’s in store for us in season 10. Maybe after season 10 we all say OMG NOW everything is clear and JC is rubbing his hands with glee and says “I told you so!!!
Hi SuperNatural,
TPTB stands for ‘The Powers That Be’ which is shortened way to refer to the writers, producers and production staff; the people who make the big decisions about the story. When some of us are unhappy, we tend to lay the blame at the feet of The Powers That Be because they are the ones who make the decisions about where the story is going. Hope that helps!:D
Hey E,
thanKs a lot for your explanation! Now I understand the discussion:)
To eilf and E. Yes to everything you’ve said. I had hoped JC would give us some Sam POV after the previous three seasons with very little of it. Unfortunately, he has given us less of it and the character assassination is beyond terrible. I don’t see any way for him to resolve that assassination that would be acceptable to me. Sam saving Dean will not do that IMO, if that’s all he does. Maybe he’ll prove me wrong but I don’t hold out any hope of that happening.