Let’s Discuss: The Supernatural Season Nine Speculation Thread
Filming has begun, the spoilers are starting to flow, and plenty of theories are now being tossed around about Supernatural’s upcoming season nine. So much so, we need a place to discuss it!
Right now we have the Bitterness and Happiness threads going, but here we are looking for hardcore speculation, whether it be happy or angry. Here’s a little write up I received from Sauyma Priyadarishi, which I thought would be a perfect way to get this topic started. She’s up on her spoilers, and has some strong thoughts about what they mean:
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So, the Comic Con mania has ended, the dust has settled down and with its end the speculation period had started. We have seen the panel, plus tons of reports and the press interviews of the cast as well the producers. All this finally leads us, i.e. fans; to speculate what the next season would be like, what we think would happen and how do we the want the storyline to be, apart from all the other points of discussion till the show finally airs on October 8.
However this year, I have seen that people have lots of concern or I would rather say apprehensions regarding this year’s storyline. After reading the comments of viewers on various websites and on the bitterness thread of the WFB sit, I have identified eight basic apprehensions of the viewers and through this article I am hoping to address some of those issues.
1) Dean is keeping the secret. AGAIN..!! : For most of the viewers this is one point that is bothering them the most because they think that it is the same story which has been repeated over and over again throughout various seasons. This year also as per the interviews by cast and crew Dean is harbouring a secret that involves healing of Sam, which comes down heavily on them in the later episodes. But isn’t this what we expect from Dean. It is in his DNA to save Sam, to look out after him and to do everything to keep him alive. When you live a life like the Winchesters, there is nothing exactly black or white. People lie to their loved ones for their own benefit all the time and this is what Dean is doing. He can’t see what his brother is going through and he is doing whatever it takes to get him healthy. Keeping a secret, is like a part and parcel in the Winchester life and even though they know that it will have its consequences, they still do it because they want to protect each other. Though this time as per the reports, Dean will not have to lie for long because Sam would know about it in the earlier episodes only. So, for me Dean keeping a secret is perfectly fine but I hope this time it wouldn’t cause a rift between them.
2) Bobby is returning: Many fans are complaining that bringing Bobby back is diminishing the effect that his character had after his death and that it would cheapen the character itself. In my opinion it is rather a correction of a past mistake that the showrunners did in season 7. Even if Bobby was dead and is coming back now, I don’t see any harm in that because as it has been the culture of this show what’s dead is never really dead in Supernatural. Plus, according to the storyline, with angels falling there has to be some after effects of it on the dynamics of heaven. Maybe, coming back of Bobby is part of it like that in the episode of ‘Dead Men Don’t Wear Plaids’. Also, going by Jim’s tweet that he is coming in a way we can’t imagine, I think we should give this story a shot.
3) No story arc for Dean : This is one topic which has been raised before and will be raised every season. Though in my opinion the show balances both the characters in the same way. This year many people thought that Dean was reduced to a mere caretaker while it was Sam who did the trials. Let’s face it Dean has always been the caretaker. Whenever it is needed of him he readily acquires the role of caretaker but that doesn’t mean that he didn’t have a storyline. While it is always Sam who is the brains of the operation while Dean is the strength, well this time the dynamics changed. It was Sam who was the strength of the ‘Closing the gates of Hell’ operation while Dean was the brain behind it. Whatever trials Sam did it was successful only with the help of Dean. Both the brothers play equally important roles in the storyline, the story is incomplete without either of them.
4) Sam needs saving. Once more.. : Many of the fans are also venting out that the story arc of saving Sam is played out. But this time Sam doesn’t need the saving instead he needs the healing. He was saved by Dean in the last episode of Season 8 and in this season he just needs the healing. I don’t see anything wrong with this point though. The condition Sam was in during the last episode, he definitely needed some help with this deteriorating state and who else is there for him but Dean to help him get out of this pain. That is what family is all about. No matter how many times your loved ones are needed to be saved, if you can help them one more time, you will do it readily, so why don’t we give the same liberty to both the brothers. I know that there is still a sore point of Sam not looking for Dean in season 8 but if we keep that aside Sam also tried to save Dean whenever it was needed. Hell, he was ready to become a zombie for Dean in season 3 if that’s what it took to keep Dean alive.
5) Brother’s bond has changed: I beg to differ on this point, especially after season 8. Surely the bond has changed but its the course of nature. What your relationship you shared with your siblings or friends in your teenage years is not the same what you have in your 30s or 40. Sam and Dean both have matured in the last few years. They have seen the carp that most of the world doesn’t even know about but still the core of their relationship hasn’t changed. They might not prank each other anymore but they still love each other and are willing to any extreme for each other and that’s one thing which has been proven very effectively in the last season.
6) Jeremy Craver’s lack of understanding the show: Considering the seasons 6 and 7, I think Jeremy Craver filled in the gap that was there after Eric Kripke left. I liked Sera Gamble as a writer but as a showrunner she got off the tracks with the whole show. Season 6 was still better but Season 7 is my least favourite of all the seasons. Coming in and correcting the mistakes that have been there for the past two seasons is what Jeremy focussed in this season. He gave the boys a mission which was personal for them, he gave the boys a base (MOL or Bat cave according to Dean ), he is bringing Bobby back and above all he is restoring the bond between Sam and Dean which had suffered in the previous seasons. Jeremy is trying and bringing back all the basic elements of the show which has made it what it is today and according to me he has succeeded in most of the areas.
7) The purgatory storyline: This one can be related to Dean’s storyarc because most of the people think that this story was sidetracked in the view of trials storyline. For this I would like to explain that purgatory was never the main storyline. From the first episode of season 8 it was made clear that this year the storyline will revolve around closing the gates of hell and they did stick to that. Purgatory was always a sidetrack which they included to show how the time spent there had changed Dean, what all he suffered there and how did he come out of it. It was never meant to be a main track and ending that storyline didn’t mean that it reduced Dean’s character to nothing. The purgatory storyline was a great character arc for Dean and it showed how it helped him to gain control of his life, thus solving its purpose.
8) Comic relief Cas and immature Kevin: Most of the fans think that this season’s Cas will be the same like that of Season 5 and will be there only for filing the humour quotient, but in my opinion this year it will be entirely different for him. What is an angel without its angel wings, its like Harry Potter without his wand. Cas has never been powerless, mind you his powers had been lessen in Season 5 but he still had some juice but this year he is basically a baby in trench coat. He has been useful to the brothers many a times and in different ways but having him on earth without any powers, well that is going to be a struggle for the Winchesters. Castiel is a friend of Winchesters, which they don’t have many and since no story can revolve around only two characters there are bound to be other additions on the show. As long as the show is not only about the Castiel and his quest, I don’t think there should be any problem with his character. For the comic relief point, what can you say after all he is a nerdy little dude with wings.
For Kevin, I don’t think of him as an immature character, I’d rather say that he is one of the bravest characters on the show. How many people can actually screw Crowley and can even beat him at that. Not many, but Kevin did and that too twice. Not only he foiled Crowley’s masterplan but he also got hold of the second half of the demon tablet, that is not surprising because after all he was in advance placement. Last season Kevin suffered a lot. He was on the run for a whole year, his girlfriend got killed by Crowley and then he lived a solitary life on Garth’s boat. Kevin is scared and it is natural for him to be. From an ignorant world where he was practising cello and preparing college essays, he was forced to be in a world which had demons and he was the number one target on the King of hell’s list. He didn’t want to do it before but like Sam and Dean he accepted his fate and knows this is what his life will be from now on. For a kid whose is going through so much of crap at such a young age, I think its okay to be a little immature, after all he is still a teenager.
So, these were the eight points that I came across in the past week and I hope I was successful in addressing them. Lastly I would like to say that I tried to address these points because I thought that fans might find their answers through a different point of view and by no means I want to disrespecting any other fan’s concern. Enjoy..!!
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So what to you think? Agree or disagree? What’s your take on the spoilers and your hopes for the season?
Since this is a Let’s Discuss, I’ll remind that we are a little looser with the moderation, but we would still like basic rules followed like be respectful to other posters and no Sam vs. Dean. No character attacks either, because those light up my “Reported Comments” box like a Christmas tree.
Okay, let’s discuss!

Alice Jester is the founder, editor-in-chief, head writer, programmer, web designer, site administrator, marketer, and moderator for The Winchester Family Business. She is a 30 year IT applications and database expert with a penchant for creative and freelance writing in her spare (ha!!) time. That’s on top of being a wife, mother of two active kids, and four loving (aka needy) pets.
hey alice…i enjoyed and totally agree with your article. i really have no worries at all about s9..i’ve never had any worries over any season to be honest with you.loved them all. some more than others of course, but nothing but love coming from this fangirl.
brothers and sisters will always keep secrets…that’s what they do. it’s life. sam and dean will always keep secrets, it’s the winchester way, it’s the human way. both brothers have a track record of keeping secrets in order to protect the other or to hide what they know the other won’t like. hell, that’s why most of us keep secrets isn’t it.? i’m just glad this time around, dean’s secret is about protecting sam and not protecting himself like he did when he kept benny from sam. (sorry but i still think dean keeping benny from sam was about dean not trusting benny and doubting if he’d done right by letting him out of purgatory, especially after ganking amy, who imo was no different from benny , )
as for a rift, i’m not worried about any first off, sam gets upset for like a minute and then moves on. secondly, carver worked too hard to get the boys to where they are…it’s a relationship he said he wanted for the boys and i doubt he’ll revert backwards concerning the boys newfound mature brotherly bond.
as for the rest, i don’t see a problem with anything. never thought dean had lack of a story…i like you have always believed the balance to be equal.don’t think cas is just comic relief but he does bring some light moments which i enjoy. looking forward to his temporary sojourn as a human.
i’m very excited to see how dean heals sam and look forward to sam’s “change”…..
also,
here’s hoping for a return of a few other characters that we haven’t seen for awhile…
samulet
trickster/gabriel
ghostfacers
garth
and with a little luck, maybe if they show heaven…we can see ash again.
i’m very excited about s9 and am literally marking the days off the calendar.
I agree completely, I am anxiously awaiting the new season. I have no problems with any of these items. There will always be secrets, we all have them. I enjoy the fights between the brothers, the misunderstandings, the passion. It is often the only time we get to see what they really are feeling.
I do want to see or hear more about the MOL, why were they targeted by demons (& angels?) what secrets did they have that truely threatened their plans?
Fans are really complaining about that stuff??? Really??? I have NOT ONE complaint… sure there are things that don’t always jive and episodes where your thinking WFT?! (ie: man’s best friend with benefits) but this is a great show and it’s still on and its looking real good that it will continue – how freakin lucky are we?!?!?!!!
I think Dean and Sam are always well represented in the storylines – there is not one without the other. I like Cas and am excited to see where his storyline will go. Bobby should have NEVER been killed and any chance they can find to bring him back – I’m all about it – it doesn’t dimish his character one bit – it’s a wrong that needs to be righted.
Alice – I agree with all you said – you have a very positive outlook on S9 and where things went, where things will go and in general what is going on
Can’t freakin wait for S9!!!!
Sometimes I think these “so called” fans of Supernatural are not happy unless they are complaining about something. I think both Sam and Dean are shown equally. I am exciting for Season 9..So many possibilities with each character. Bringing Bobby back is just extra icing on the cake. I also looking forward to human Cas storyline.
I just feel i need to respond to ponts 4 and 5. Yes the brotehr bond has changed and not in a good way…and it absolutely is tied in with 4…Sam always needs saving.
Once upon a time Sam used to be the 2nd best hunter on the planet…one of the elite..so to speak. Sam and Dean used to protect each other. They used to be not only brothers but brothers in arms….soldiers in the trenches together.
I understand Dean will never trust or forgive Sam and thus the status quo has changed…the very brotherhood has changed.
And this lead to 6….jeremey carvers lack of understanding of show…specifically Sam. When Did Sam become the special needs child in need of constant protection from not only the very job he does but the simplest of truthes? Hunting is NOT sunshine and lollypops. Its hard and cruel and cold and bloody. Sam CAN handle this; he HAS handled it. he can handle it again.
Just because Dean no longer trusts Sam doesn’t mean Sam stopped being that smart, (independant is another story) strong, empathetic, bad ass hunter with a dry sense of humor. its just buried under years of low self worth and some bad decsions. I loved that Sam. And if the only way to bring him back, to move him outt of the shadow of the past, smarter and wiser is to seperate Sam and Dean then so be it.
the lies, the conflict, the misunderstands are no longer fun or enjoyable. Sam’s thoughts and feelings are far too often hidden, revealed only in the last 5 minutes of the season finale. Mostley because he isn’t given a sounding booard, someone he can talk to, get a different prespective or advice .
Sam needs a friend.
Thanks for passing this along Alice. I agree with Sauyma, I thought season 8 was pretty damn good. It managed to put the brothers back on track with each other. Their bond is as solid as it ever was IMO. After all, these guys have matured and aged (beautifully I might add 😉 ), Sam is now, what, 30? I think it’s time Sam & Dean are on the same footing, even though Sam will always be Dean’s little brother. And I am so stoked to have Bobby back! 🙂 I’ve missed him terribly. I have confidence in the writers that his return will be plausible in the SPNverse.
In response to #5. The brothers have grown and matured, but the bond has not changed. Each brother occasionally needs saving – they are in a deadly business, and stuff happens. Sam is still one of the 2 best hunters, with that wry humor and everything else you mentioned. Dean trusts him – he has proven that over and over, and remember he told Cas that even sick, Sam always comes through. Just because Dean worries about him if he is sick or injured, does not mean he does not trust him. Just like Sam worries about Dean when he is sick or injured. They are brothers, and each other’s only family – this just makes sense. It also makes sense that they both have insecurities – and when once in a blue moon they actually get torn down enough to voice them, the other brother is there to reassure them – as Dean did for Sam in Sacrifice.
I’m very psyched for season 9. The brothers are together – will be facing several armies of ticked off, powerful angels, demons with a new leader now that they have Crowley (Abaddon?) and a buddy who lost his powers and will need protection and help. That buddy will still have his memories, though, so I am betting he will find ways to help and not just be a liability. Also – they are guys and brothers – they say mean things to each other sometimes. The other usually ignores or throws a verbal shot back, but sometimes the shot hits home. It is hard for the fans to watch that, but I try to get over it just like I know the characters will get over it. They are tough guys, and will always have each others’ backs.
Speculation – sounds like whatever Dean does to save his brother’s life also gives Sam some sort of power to help the brothers fight. I have seen lots of speculation about what Dean did – demon blood, angel blood, hoodoo curse – who knows. Putting aside what Dean did, any idea on what the new ability is that Jared was so psyched about at Comic Con? I am intrigued.
Amyh, I agree that Sam could use a friend. However I just never agree with the assertion that Dean doesn’t trust Sam or forgive Sam. The first part of last season had a lot of (what was to me) ooc behavior for both brothers and if we can call “bad writing” for Sam why can’t we do the same for Dean? He is just an ass who will never forgive his brother as evidenced by the spectre rant and various comments that were made. He has had with trust issues with Sam and others. He doesn’t trust easily and has been given some reason to be distrustful of others. He has a lot of issues himself which are not always flattering BUT I believe he trusts Sam!! Does he think that Sam might not always be truthful? Yeah, probably. Frankly both brothers don’t get high marks on that score.They do withhold things from each other (lie) but is it usually not done for malicious purposes, there is always a reason they justify it to themselves. Dean trusts Sam to fight along side and watch his back every episode!! When Dean said “NONE of things are true” at the end of sacrifice I think it was meant.
I guess only the new season will shed light on whether or not I am right but there is one thing I do know and have said many times, if you separate the brothers, there is no show!
[quote] Yes the brotehr bond has changed and not in a good way…and it absolutely is tied in with 4…Sam always needs saving. [/quote]
Have you forgotten that Sam was only doing the trials in the first place because Sam saved Dean in Trial and Error? Dean was pretty much at the mercy of the hell hound, just about to be ripped to shreds when Sam jumped in at the last moment in heroic fashion to save his big brother. I agree with the others posting here, I think that, for the most part, show does a good job of maintaining a balance between the brothers. So.. Sam needed saving at the end of season 8, he wouldn’t have if Dean hadn’t needed saving mid-season.
I agree with most of this article. I was pleased with season 8 overall, and am excited to see what happens next. I do have one thing to point out about #3 on your list, however.
Let me preface this by saying that I loved Dean’s character arc in s. 8–I think he worked through some things that have been dogging him through many seasons, has gained some clarity about why he is hunting, and has begun to expand his “family” in mostly healthy ways. I didn’t mind seeing him as caretaker through the trials, either, because that is such a big part of his personality.
But here’s the thing, the sticking point, the piece of the spoiler puzzle that has me empathizing with the “no storyarc” fans: the producers are talking about the cure, Castiel’s humanity, Dean’s secret that involves curing Sam, and so on, but when it comes to Dean outside this secret all we get is “O and he’s going to fight a pidgeon!” Are they serious? Add this to the fact that the last spoiler that Carver had for Dean was one word, “Tron”, referring to the Charlie-centric episode, “Pac-Man Fever,” and I can see how fans are feeling that Dean is being under utilized by the creators. At this point I have to think that Carver and Singer either don’t care about how they are coming across, truly thought that this would be a satisfactory tidbit of information, or are deliberately messing with the fandom.
I don’t want to skew this thread into negativity, but I felt that it was worthwhile to point this out.
Ahhh, that was beautiful Sauyma! I do agree with every one of your conclusions.
I get so darn tired of all the nitpicky complaining that I very seldom now read any posts in the follow up. I have enough things to be miserable about in my real life than have one of my most enjoyable things ruined by complainers of nearly every aspect of the show. 🙁
Having Bobby back spoils nothing for me, as it was a humongous mistake to kill him off, no matter how wonderfully “dramatic” the episode! I’d trade that episode in a flash to have our Bobby back alive.
And Jeremy Carver knows the boys as well as anyone who has worked on the show and more than most of them. So bless his heart for giving us back the relationship that was taken mostly away in the Gamble years. Sarah was a great writer but she ran off the rails with the direction taken. (And here I AM MYSELF nitpicking and complaining about Sarah. Ironic eh?) 😛 Anyway I trust Carver hugely more than Sarah when it comes to the boys. 🙄
And Dean has always been the hero of this tale as far as I’m concerned and has never been left out and has NEVER been “just a caretaker”. He is a caretaker like no other on top of all the other great things he is! My hero, for ever!! And he wouldn’t be who he is without his little brother (son, almost) Sammy who he has cared for and protected since he was 4 years old. It’s Sammy who makes his life livable, and Sammy, who makes him miserable and willing to die for, and who gains his forgiveness for everything he does to hurt him. These two are what makes this show so incredible and so very involving with the family love theme. 🙂
So, bravo, Jeremy, Jensen and Jared. Thank you for all you have given me in the past and I know will continue to give in the future! May it be a long future! 🙂
With respect I would argue with the Dean trust/forgiveness of Sam as if it some blanket thing Dean does or that he has been the only one let down and hurt by those around him..
It makes me sad in many ways how Sam has to define himself to those around him .I dont know if the writers will pursue a more open Sam in season 9 or we go back to the tortoise style of story telling where he pops his head out now and again we get a glimpse before he retreats back in to that shell they have created for him.
Sharon, I’m not sure if you were talking in general or addressing my comments but I can assure you I don’t think Dean has been the only one hurt and let down by those around him. Sam, for sure, has justifiable claims to that also. They have both had trust issues with each other but show has chosen to make Dean, in particular, look especially unforgiving this season with many fans jumping on board with that idea while at the same time saying that Sam was written ooc.
I completely agree with you re: a more openly written Sam. Though that shell of his is part of what makes Sam well,Sam.
The Supernatural fans amaze me-They will accept anything that any producer of spn gives them. (Edited by Alice – against our strict rules of no disrespect). It kills me-really- I mean case and point-#4-Dean has no arc- Jensen himself at comic con stated he doesn’t have an arc this season-that they are throwing things out there to see what sticks. He himself was disappointed in the purgatory arc-He said it ended too early- Yet you try to justify his lack of arc with its all good-the brothers have equal parts so that makes it OK-I mean the actor himself was disappointed but you guys -you’re ok with it. Jensen himself said he was Sams caretaker last season and that Dean wasn’t in control like Dean likes to be. -Jensen in ALL of his interviews about season 9-stays with the company line-The brothers chose each other blah blah blah.-Yet Jared, Misha and even Mark are able to be specific with their storylines but Jensen has to stay with the company line and be vague. But that’s OK with the fandom. You know-If you guys (edited by Alice – disrespectful) start really complaining -the show would be a hellava lot better. We wouldn’t get episodes like bitten-and that other doggy episode and the torn up canon that we got last season.
(Note from Alice – I don’t like removing comments outright, because everyone is entitled to their opinion, but no disrespect to other fans is our number one rule. All your comments mikmad will be edited with that in mind).
Re#14… Yes, I’m sure that if I were to bitch loud enough at every perceived slight, that ptb would change everything to be exactly the way I wanted it to be…oh wait…that would be telling my story instead of theirs. We would all be required to have and voice the exact same opinion in order for that to be even a remote possibility, and that, obviously, is not going to happen…ever.
I am not sorry to say that I am a happy fan of a wonderful show and am awaiting sn9 with a smile. 🙂
#15 Thisoldbag-Carver and Singer both have stated and even the actors have stated that they listen to the fans-Thus the reason they got rid of Jo and Bella and Lisa and whats her name from last season Sam’s love interest-so telling their story strictly and only their story is not #1 on their list-unfortunately. Don’t get me wrong-I have loved some of the stories they have told- (Edited by Alice – You do not disrespect another poster’s opinion. We call it “agree to disagree.”) imho
#15-Thisoldbag, I agree with you! The people who are happy have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO AN OPINION as the constant complainers, and furthermore not be blamed for their unhappiness.
mikmad- I’m a little confused you said “The Supernatural fans amaze me-They will accept anything that any producer of spn gives them. You are a bunch of yes-its good-women.” Apparently you haven’t seen the WFB bitterness thread. Personally, I’m happy with the show and am happy to be a “yes-its-good-woman”. 😀
For me, speculation is limited as there has not been a huge amount revealed in the spoilers.
If Sam’s mission for the season is to cure demons then I’m hoping the show will address the idea of the host bodies, and if demons are cured, what happens to the host. Should we assume they are all dead? Are they going to have to share bodies with someone who most probably did something to belong in hell in the first place? If that’s the case then Sam and Dean might want to reassess their ‘Saving people, hunting things’ motto. In the same regard, I’m hoping they’ll address how taxing it is on the body to constantly be withdrawing blood from it in order to heal demons.
In relation to the secret, that’s just more of the same. These two really shouldn’t even pretend they’re not keeping secrets from each other at this stage! Is it still unclear as to whether this secret is something that is new (ie something that Dean did etc in 9.01 to heal Sam) or has been there for a while (ie something Dean has known about Sam for a long time in relation to his healing).
To be honest, I’m kind of over Bobby. He died, the show moved on and if the ratings are any indication, moved on quite well. The showrunner made a choice (and I must admit, I do find it quite insulting to Sera Gamble to constantly refer to decisions she made as ‘mistakes’) to kill him off, so he died. It’s been happening on the show from day one, it’ll happen again. The picture tweeted showed Bobby to be quite pale so if it’s not a lighting issue then perhaps he’s back as a ghost, or a hallucination or something like that. There’s also been talk about roles that JB has gotten in films and whatnot so perhaps his presence, if it is all season long, will be very limited.
I’m speculating that Kevin will react badly to what has transpired. (I’m [i]hoping[/i] he’ll react badly to what has transpired.) Kevin was, for me, by far and away the most mature character of the season in season 8 but even he has to have a breaking point. (And to all those who are lauding the maturity of Sam, Dean and their relationship this season, could you possibly help me and point out where you saw this maturity because to say that I’m struggling to find it would be a massive understatement).
Carver said that the overarching theme of season 9 will be ‘consequences’ and I’m damn glad to hear that because these characters seriously need to be made aware of the consequences of their actions, both towards each other and to everyone else.
Re Castiel, I find it quite strange that he has been referred to by both the producers and the actors as ‘useless’, considering that he has millions of years of knowledge and lore etc amassed. I would have assumed that this would be quite handy in a battle against angels, but maybe not. Much of the emphasis in Comic Con etc focused on Castiel as comic relief (talks of trips to the toilet etc were met with particular glee) but hopefully he’ll be used as more than that. He could contribute a lot more than that to the season.
I’d very much like to discuss your eight points of apprehension as some interesting issues have been brought up, but given that I don’t necessarily agree with all that you have to say, it’s probably best that I do so in another thread.
I am going to agree with Thisoldbag, Leah and Josieposie re: #14. So, I guess I am also just one of the mindless “yes-it’s-good-woman,” then because I am perfectly happy with the way the season ultimately turned out, (there were a few bumps and missteps along the way IMO) and I am also happy with the direction that things are going in. To be honest, I really don’t care much if the actor’s are unhappy with certain parts of their story lines, it’s bound to happen from time to time especially in a show that has gone on this long. You think Jared was happy with the Amelia arc and the much discussed “Sam didn’t look for Dean” debacle? Well, he wasn’t and he said so. Misha also didn’t seem all that thrilled with the ‘Cas as comic relief’ angle and also voiced that opinion. I am sure Jensen will work out whatever issues he may have had with the PTB as well. If he was truly unhappy and unfulfilled working on this show we wouldn’t be in season 9.
I have to wonder though if there was another way that you could make your point without resorting to calling the other posters names and resorting to insults. Last time I checked, each fan was entitled to their own opinion, and as often happens, opinions differ.
I don’t understand why all of you are just proving my point by saying ” I am thrilled with spn and season 8 and looking forward to season 9 and all is good and I am a mindless ect… ect.. ect…”. Its kinda redundant being I know all of you are happy with it and where its going
that’s why I stated what I stated-and I put imho-If you
are entitled to your opinion-then so am I.
As for what I think is going to go on this season-Angels-Angels and more Angels–I believe the secret that Dean is harboring is how he “heals” Sam from the ills of doing the Hell trials-so I am guessing Dean had Death help him. I believe I read that Death is coming back this season. Did Dean make a deal with Death-maybe— As For Bobby-I think he is going to come back in a séance with Missiouri-if that is a true spoiler that she is coming back. -Maybe Sam and Dean need to know something that only Bobby knows (something about heaven maybe) so they need to ask him and have a séance (spelling????) to get in touch with him. As for Cas-could give a rats arse about him. I hate the character-Dean-if the writers would have stayed true to Deans character and written him as Dean-Dean would have killed Cas after he broke Sam’s wall. So I don’t care what Cas is doing-I fast forward thru his crap anyway. Crowley-he and the new king/queen of hell will get into a fight and the boys will back Crowley- All this is my opinion. Thanks.
(From Alice – I got a reported comment on this one, but I’ll let this one go unedited. You are definitely entitled to your opinion mikmad and welcome to share it here. Just no showing disrespect to other people’s opinions as well, especially if they don’t match your own. Thank you.)
Mikmid you are entitled to your opinion, but being insulting to other commenters and fans is not ok and is, in fact, against the rules of this website. People here have many diverse opinions but we try and respect one another while expressing them. You appear to not have any intention of doing that and want to cause trouble. Good luck with that!
mikmad not mikmid! Sorry.
Here here Leah! Mikmid, perhaps you are new to this site and have not read the rules of conduct, which you might want to do so that you can better understand how this site works and understand the the rules that govern all posters as far as tone and content go.
You are free to forward your own point of view to your heart’s content on this site and as vehemently as you like as well, but attacking another posters opinion, resorting to childish name calling and being dismissive of dissenting views as though you are the only one who has something valid to say is against the rules of this site. If you would like to continue to further your opinion regarding Dean and your dissatisfaction with his story, I will be happy to engage in a healthy dialogue with you as my views do not line up with yours about the progress of the show. But if you are going to continue to insult everyone who does not feel as you do then we are done, because as far as I am concerned, if you can’t further your arguments without being rude, then you really have nothing to say that’s worth listening to.
Sorry! Mikmad, I did the same thing as Leah!?!?! Wha? 😀
My bad for not giving the rules link at the bottom of the article. I usually do! So, we’ll cut mikmad a break until the rules become familiar.
https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/64-rules
I wasn’t attacking any 1 poster-Really I wasn’t attacking at all. I was posting a generic term for Supernatural fans that always agree with what is done by the writers and show runners. And true-I don’t know the rules-sorry-But I assumed ( yea I know-you assume-you make an arse out of yourself right?? 🙂 that if you don’t attack a particular poster one on one-but keep it general it would be ok. Which I made it general-as a term-. which most on this sight or this particular article seem to agree that spn is doing everything great which I disagree with -not all things-but some things.
Thanks Alice! I’ve been in violation of those rules before, ( 😳 ) So I can understand getting a little aggressive when our emotions are engaged.
i think jc did a wonderful job of putting the heart back into the winchester’s lives. i didn’t like some of it, but i understood what he wanted to accomplish and the end result was amazing. he has been with show since s3, he knows sam & dean. he saw that the relationship bet. the boys lost its heart and he plotted out the story the way he saw fit to get it back.
the boy’s relationship has changed over the years as is a natural progression of all relationships. now carver brought the boys’ relationship to a new level, one of clarity, understanding & finally laying to rest all the misperceptions ea. brother had regarding the way they thought the other thought about them. so yay for that as that’s been 8 years in the making.
carver made it a point from the start in telling the fandom that this season was about perception. purgatory was not the main story for dean. normal was not the main story for sam. the story was about how sam and dean both mispercieved ea. other, what that ultimately led to and finally clearing up these lifelong misperceptions resulting in each coming to the realization that they never new about ea. other.
sam realizes that all those mistakes he’s made, all his sins against his brother, did not diminish the love dean has for sam. dean didn’t see sam as failing him. yes he was hurt and he made it a point of letting sam know it, but that didn’t mean that dean didn’t love and put his brother above everyone and everything. sam didn’t come in third place behind an angel and a vampire, sam is number one in dean’s world and no mistake sam makes will change that.
dean understands how much sam values him. dean’s misperception that sam didn’t look because he didn’t care was the farthest thing from the truth. sam imploding and running should’ve been dean’s biggest clue that sam couldn’t deal with the loss of his brother. dean’s own issues with lack of self worth was transferred onto sam. ironically, dean is really the only person who’s deaths have affected sam in the most negative way. dean was the only death sam couldn’t handle in the history of show.
i’ve always known how much sam loved and admired dean. i knew it from dead man’s blood. the scene where sam and his dad are arguing by the car, john demanding sam get back in the car & sam defiantly telling him no. then dean steps in and tells sam to get in the car and he does. no question, no hesitation. from that moment i knew that the one person who sam regarded most in this world was dean. sam’s confession at the end of sacrifice only reaffirmed what i’ve always known. but now dean knows it too. sam has finally given dean what dean has always needed, proof positive that dean means more to sam than anything else.
as far as dean not having a storyline, that’s just phooey. i mean even if an eppy is sam centered, it’s all about how it affects dean. i’ve never seen dean’s character slighted in any way in regards to storyline. as a matter of fact, given that most of the pov given is dean’s, i always thought the show was seen through his eyes.
leah, i’m with you on the trust thing. there is no doubt in my mind that dean trusts sam. i know sam equated dean’s disappointment in him with lack of trust, but i think that was purposeful as part of the misperception storyline going on with both boys. i stand firm on my belief that dean’s trust issues this season were with benny & himself, not sam. i have proof behind the pudding when i say this. firstly, dean keeping benny a secret. i still say it’s because as much as dean knew benny would protect him in purgatory , dean did not know for certain that benny could be trusted topside. dean wasn’t sure he did the right thing, so he didn’t tell sam. rewatching taxi driver again, proved to me beyond any doubt the trust dean has always had in sam. dean told benny to ride out with sam. even when benny said this is the same bro. who wants to kill me, dean showed no doubt sam would get benny out. he was right too. sam did try to get benny out. that leads me to conclude dean never feared sam would kill benny. i still say it was about keeping sam from confronting benny and learning the truth. if sam questioned benny & got answers, all of dean’s talk about benny being trustworthy would go out the window. benny only saved him because he needed him to escape sam could bring up amy & the hypocrisy of killing her while letting benny live. she saved sam much like benny saved dean. she killed for her son, benny killed for his supposed grandchild. there isn’t much difference bet. amy & benny if you think on it. anyhoo, point being, i never thought at any point this season dean didn’t trust sam.
i love that sacrifice has made rewatching so much easier. i watch with new eyes.
for ex. after sacrifice, it was even more telling how much sam loves dean in taxi driver. he was willing to save benny when he still believed that dean put benny above him. love it.
never did speculate re: s9 did i 😀
here’s what i believe will happen in s9….it’s gonna be amazing and i’m going to love every minute of it. 😆
I’m guessing the way Dean saves Sam is he feeds him some of Crowely’s blood, since the Trials were purifying Sam, maybe tainting him demon blood will cause the effects to reverse.
I mean Carver even said that episode one, Dean fixes Sam. So the whole “Sam needs to be saved” stuff, isn’t going to be an issue.
Carver also has said the exact same thing about bringing a dead character back to life would diminishing the effect of their death. So I believe Bobby will stay dead, and his return is just another one off, so it’s really going to be interesting to see how they go about having on the show, because by Carvers admission they aren’t twisting any of the set rules to bring him back.
I was really disappointed by the Purgatory storyline, mostly because it seemed like the writers weren’t that into it themselves. It was fairly boring in execution, there was no variety in monsters; they pretty much just fought vampires,and tortured a rugaru. And the leviathans, they couldn’t even be bothered to do anything interesting with them in Purgatory? I know the show has a small budget, hell I was able to think up a slightly interesting and economical way of doing the leviathans in Purgatory.
I pick and choose very carefully about posting on this site because I, too, feel that honest perceptions that differ from the majority are not well received. I did not plan on making a post about this article, as I felt it[b][i] unintentionally [/i] [/b] – and let me say that again – [b][i]unintentionally[/i][/b] — invalidated any viewpoint held other than that of those who were completely happy with S8. But, this is a speculation thread, so I will speculate.
What do we know about S9? We know the mytharc is about the fallen angels, because that’s all Carver has talked about since Comic Con. We also know that Dean has a big secret about Sam and his miraculous cure. We know little else.
We know from Comic Con that JP is very excited (and when isn’t he bubbly?) about his arc, which he says is that Sam wants to cure every demon he can find. I speculate that this does not fit into the angel mytharc, but I hope that it does. I hope that Sam is not parked outside the mytharc like he was with the awful Samelia story (which had nothing to do with the mytharc or anything supernatural at all) and that there is not another confusing and neck-breaking course correction at mid-season break like there was in S8 when Sam took on the demon tablet trials and the Samelia story was dropped.
I would also hope, but don’t expect, the writers to explain the large plot hole left about curing demons, which is that after the demon’s evil and corrupted soul is cured, what happens? As it stands now, there are two souls in one human body, so it seems something has to give. (And don’t forget, one of those souls had to be evil to begin with, because it was sent to Hell to be further corrupted.)
We also know from Comic Con that Dean has no story arc planned at this time. JA said that, but he said that Dean is no longer the “guilty cheerleader†– JA’s adjectives; mine were “Dean Cleaver.†My speculation is that Dean will still be in the role of Dean Cleaver. Yes, being a caregiver is a characteristic of Dean’s, but it is not…and should not be…his only defining characteristic, which it was in S8, even if that characteristic was built upon by adding cooking, home decorating, and mentoring of children (Krissy, the aging Charlie, and Kevin). JA also said the big secret Dean keeps from Sam is the biggest secret ever in the SPNverse. My hope is that the writers can make this one and only spoiler for Dean tie into the mytharc.
Note here, that if my two hopes are granted, BOTH brothers will have a story and be a part of the mytharc in S9, and I think everyone would be happy with that.
Carver said that S9 will explore both Crowley’s story and Cas’ story in-depth and that they plan to use Charlie as much as they can. I hope Crowley’s character can be revitalized, as Crowley was not scary as the big bad. We know that Cas will be learning to be human, with such things as bathroom antics, sex scenes, and training sessions with Dean (according to a JA interview). My spec is that that puts Cas as comic relief until at least mid-season, if not all season.
We know that Crowley and Abaddon will be fighting over Hell. That, to me, sounds like a sub-plot and a way to expand the show into an ensemble cast.
Charlie, in her last two appearances, has been aligned with the MotW episodes, and it is my spec that Dean fighting pigeons will be a stand-alone Charlie episode. A good writer could take this silly spoiler into angel territory, but I speculate that will not be the case.
As far as Bobby goes, we only know that he is coming back once again. My viewpoint is that the long drawn-out death and repeated appearances has cheapened the character, but I like Jim Beaver and I would rather see Bobby than most of the recurring characters being used these days. I’m only sorry that the writers won’t bring back Rufus, a character I loved and that actually fit well in the SPN hunting community.
To sum up a too-long post, I don’t feel there are enough spoilers to speculate about how S9 might go. I just hope that the season will have the two leads pull the plot, and not have the plots of each individual episode jerk around the two leads.
I don’t think Bobby’s been cheapened at all. Bobby’s adventures in ghost land was his final arc for season seven, and he made one appearance in season 8. Had he been resurrected, that would have cheapened, but as it is I’m going take Carver’s word that:
“And to that point, this year we’re very careful of that. Bobby does not come back in a way that you would expect or in a way that undermines his death.”
While Rufus is unlikely to pop up again, Carver did mention there is a small chance Linda Tran may be back, considering the nature of her supposed “death.”
[quote]#15-Thisoldbag, I agree with you! The people who are happy have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO AN OPINION as the constant complainers, and furthermore not be blamed for their unhappiness.[/quote]
They do and nobody would argue with that unless they are mean spirited however so do other opinions matter.
Some issues people have are genuine not something they are plucking out of the air just to annoy others with. There are somethings I have not liked and as I stated I dont agree with the Dean is all forgiving idea but that isnt gospel just how I feel . If and as long has a alternative thought is giving with respect then there is room for everybody.
I enjoyed and prefered the second half of season 8 to the first half and how they deal with Sam in season 9 is a big question for me as I find the handling of Sam troublesome for me.
Quoting mikmad [quote]The Supernatural fans amaze me-They will accept anything that any producer of spn gives them[/quote] With all due respect to your point and the fact that I have written this write up I would say that this is absolutely not true. Supernatural fanbase is an intelligent lot and we don’t accept just whatever is dissed in front of us. But this show is a sci-fi show and like any other show it does that creative liberty and I think we should be okay with it because that’s how film and cinema work. As per the point of Dean’s arc or Jensen not having quality work is not fair. Jensen is a smart actor and he really thinks like this he would have opted out of the show till now but he hasn’t and that shows how content he is with the storyline. As per arc thing is concerned Sam and Dean are both part of a storyline,Any storyline affects both Sam and Dean, whether it was Soulless Sam storyline, or Lucifer storyline or Trails storyline. Their stories are entwined and that’s all that matters..!! 🙂
I kind of wish that there wasn’t a secret about how Sam was healed or we have another Sam getting angry about someone doing something on his behalf, which the secret storyline seems to be heading. Because healing or saving, what is the difference, if Sam continually needs someone else outside him to do it then him having an emotional outburst about how they do it.
For once I’d like it if Sam gets to actually heal or save himself because I kind of feel that would be a great storyline for Sam that we haven’t seen. Because really when did they really let him last do that? Preseries when he went to college?
Dean’s depression, he snapped out of it himself because of purgatory, but he didn’t have anyone else pull a magic switch, but it is never like that with Sam.
Also I get Sam feels a lot of guilt but season 8 took me to places with Sam and the brother bond. I didn’t feel comfortable with (the whole thing with Benny and the text). I get in interviews that it was meant to be concern but on screen it came out as jealousy and seeing how Amy’s name kept being thrown in, not to mention the line about another vampire in the finale it felt as a way to get one over on Dean couples with a way to act out on how the Dean/Benny friendship made Sam feel.
A brotherly bond should never get to the point where part of a reason they are hunting something involves ‘I don’t feel comfortable you being my brother’s friend because it makes me feel less’. I always got it was on the unhealthy side of codependency but that took it one step too far for me, especially when Dean became overly domesticated to care for sick Sam. Having that so close together just made the brother bond kind of icky in a way.
Also Benny storyline shouldn’t have ended better on Sam’s part than that grudging admittance that Benny wasn’t what he thought he was in the car. Because for me it was like the leader of a lynch mob admitting the guy he tried to hang wasn’t that bad. In season 9 if they do have Benny back they need to have Sam grovel in my opinion. You may not like me saying that but the vampire wasn’t guilty of anything Sam said and Sam was in part responsible for putting Benny’s family in danger by introducing Martin. Sam needs to make serious amends for that, but I’m guessing if Benny comes back he will have lost his humanity and will need killing again and the whole Benny story will be retconned to show Sam’s mistrust was right all along seeing how canon isn’t important any more.
Also I’d like it if I actually got that Sam understood how his actions actually affected others and the brother bond, I got he was guilty about them but didn’t get the affect sometimes.
I’d love Dean not to be the reason the Cas and Sam storylines can exist in the same universe, which I kind of felt the character descended into. It would be nice if he got more to do than facilitate others
But seeing how the main points of every interview we have involves a secret Dean is keeping about how Sam is healed (making it a multi episode Sam arc) and the funny adventures of Cas with the only Dean storyline essentially being single episode ones, (Dean v flying rat and him getting laid), I kind of guess we aren’t getting that.
As for bringing Bobby back, the bringing him back again does diminish the character. They’ve always joked about how they can bring characters back but to do it in the way they did Bobby, making him essentially ‘Casper’ the friendly hunter dragged out what had been a tremendous ending. But I guess if they are bringing him back and not keeping him in heaven as a way for Metatron to try and work out what they boys next move will be his storyline will be him sacrificing his soul as a way to heal Sam and telling Dean not to let Sam know what Bobby did.
@36. Back when the episode aired I remember asking for proof that Benny was innocent. I didn’t get any replies. fazzie, you seem convinced that Benny is innocent (so much so that you want Sam to grovel for daring to doubt him), so may I ask you, where is the proof that convinces you of that?
I know you may say a lot of what I put should be on the bitterness thread, I know a lot should.
I put it here to explain as a reply to the part about the brother bond changing, not as a natural progression but because I felt the Benny storyline more than the not looking gave the bond a good kicking in a forced way that didn’t make either brother (especially Sam) come out well and in season 9 they still have a lot of work to do with that.
#37 The other vampire?
The no other bodies on the ground apart from when the other vampire was around. The fact that Benny didn’t attack Dean when Dean confronted him with the bodies and could provide a reasonable explanation of a vamp, he wasn’t working with, was in the area and point him in that direction. If he was guilty why do that, why just not run or attack if he was feeding again.
But even if there was the off chance Benny was guilty the taint of Amy and the jealousy of Benny and Dean’s friendship still doesn’t make Sam’s actions any better considering all the times he’s given other monsters he knew at that point had definitely killed a second chance. (Kate and Amy) . It kicks the brother bond in the teeth.
@39 You mean the other vampire we didn’t see or hear about til Benny pointed Dean in his direction? The vampire we never saw standing over a dead body or with blood on his hands? That vampire?
Why didn’t Benny run? Because he pointed Dean in Desmond’s direction and Dean never questioned him on it? And it would be suicide if he took on a machete wielding Dean Winchester who, as a result of Purgatory, knew all his moves.
In relation to the ‘jealousy’, why would Sam be jealous of their relationship? I mean, he’s the one who has pushed Dean toward reconciling with Castiel, why would he do that if he was jealous of Deans outside relationships?
I think Dean has done a deal with a demon to possess Sam, but not to take over his body. Maybe someone like Meg. That has never been done before. Hey just speculating. Love Dean to death but he does leap before looking
[quote]@39 You mean the other vampire we didn’t see or hear about til Benny pointed Dean in his direction? The vampire we never saw standing over a dead body or with blood on his hands? That vampire?
Why didn’t Benny run? Because he pointed Dean in Desmond’s direction and Dean never questioned him on it? And it would be suicide if he took on a machete wielding Dean Winchester who, as a result of Purgatory, knew all his moves.
In relation to the ‘jealousy’, why would Sam be jealous of their relationship? I mean, he’s the one who has pushed Dean toward reconciling with Castiel, why would he do that if he was jealous of Deans outside relationships?[/quote]
i have to agree with you tim regarding benny. i for one have never been on the benny bandwagon. i thought his character untrustworthy and boring. i think benny was all about revenge and he used dean. i’m not saying a friendship didn’t form, i think one did. but you know what, ruby loved sam. in her way, she loved him. but that didn’t stop her overall mission. in the end, raising lucifer was her primary goal. sam was her way to do it.
seems to me, from the very start we knew benny used dean. hell, dean knew it too. but as the fight to survive in purgatory went on, it seemed that dean forgot that. here’s what i know of benny that show has given us and why i’ve never trusted benny as far as i could throw him.
1. he flat out told dean he needed him to get out.
2. he told cas that he lies, he doesn’t get lied to.
3. ever since benny’s release, it’s been clear of his reason for wanting out of purgatory…revenge. he wanted to kill the vamp who turned him and he used dean to do it.
4. now i know they’ve been showing benny drinking blood from a bag, but i don’t think benny was about drinking human blood. if his claims are true and he steals blood, well then that’s just another level of creep for stealing blood that sick people need. in purgatory i’m not sure he was feeding on blood. so i don’t think blood drinking is the issue. the issue is killing.
5. citizen fang. there are 50 states in the US and benny shows up where there is a nest with a vampire he knows from his past. A vamp that benny claimed wanted to turn benny back into one of them. another coincidence is that humans weren’t dying until benny found out from dean that he was being followed. show never showed either vampire killing so it was left for the audience to speculate on what really happened. given what i’ve seen of benny so far, i concluded that desmond was benny’s next target but dean’s call changed things. once benny realized he had eyes on him, he used that to his advantage. i think benny did kill the humans to frame desmond so that when benny killed him he had reason to do it. i never believed the girl was his granddaughter. i always believed she was meant to be a witness. basically, benny saw a pretty waitress and most likely took to her. he left her alive so she can be his witness when he killed martin. by the time he killed martin, he’d already gotten the taste for killing humans again.
5. now you can say this is all speculation on my part, but i think there is enough circumstantial evidence to support my theory just as much as one can say benny was just a poor innocent victim.
i think benny’s original motives for wanting out of purgatory were based on revenge. once benny got his revenge, he seemed to me to seek out fellow vamps that he knew. he spent fifty years in purgatory doing nothing but killing and he’s expected to just come topside and stop?
those calls to dean from parks and other public places…at first i thought it was him jonesing for human blood as he was drinking from a bag every time. but then i realized that it was never about him wanting to drink people. it was about needing to kill.
now we haven’t seen benny so we don’t know what he’s been up to since his kill(s) in citizen fang. he may have killed again. the boys have been pretty busy with other things to notice monster kills.
what i have no doubt of based on benny’s confession iin taxi driver was that benny made a mistake coming topside. he didn’t fit in. it was hard for him. he wanted to go back. benny needed to kill and he needed to do it somewhere it could be done without question.
these are my feelings re: benny & in all honesty, i stand firm on my opinion of him. show would have to prove to me that it’s just not the case, but the way show handled benny & all that we were told & the stuff we never got to see for ourselves, but were purposefully left to speculate on, leads this fangirl to believe that i may not be wrong about this. could be, but then again…
I’ll offer the proof for Benny, because these writers have a very bad habit of killing off interesting, good characters (and Benny was one of those), while using boring, inept, crappy characters repeatedly, and that is a peeve I have with the show. The proof is in the writing – canon.
Benny owed Dean (Blood Brother and Citizen Fang). In both those episodes, Benny needed Dean’s help and Dean willingly gave it to the point of straining his relationship with Sam, getting knocked out by another hunter so Sam and Martin could go kill the wrong guy, and by helping Benny’s granddaughter clean up the mess left when Benny killed Martin, an unstable hunter that Sam brought in to watch Benny (never mind that Sam did not see the need to have Amy trailed, even though Amy was actively killing, was actively killing to the point that Sam caught her in the act. Martin was threatening to kill an innocent just to get at Benny (again, because of Sam’s poor judgment and unwillingness to trust his brother).
Following the Taxi Driver episode, it was shown that Benny was still drinking blood bank blood (I think I’m recalling that accurately – Taxi Driver when Dean called him), and through direct narrative it was shown that:
(1) Benny willing agreed to having his head chopped off because he was tired of fighting his bloodlust and wanted to go “home†(also in Taxi Driver)
(2) Sam’s direct narrative said that Sam was wrong about Benny (Sacrifice)
(3) Benny was clearly shown to be a good guy and a good friend to Dean by repaying his debt to Dean (Taxi Driver), as shown by the heartfelt hug Dean gave Benny
(4) Desmond’s (that vamp we never saw standing over a dead body with blood on his hands) direct narrative confirmed that Desmond was expecting Benny to join his nest, as Benny had told Dean. From Citizen Fang:
BENNY (on phone with Dean)
That ain’t gonna work this time, bub. You take me with, or I don’t tell you where he is.
DEAN
You know where he is?
BENNY
He said he’s not gonna stop the killing till I join his little nest. Two bodies is enough. I told him I’m in.
And later in the episode…
DESMOND
[with his fangs descended] Benny never told me he was bringing a friend.
I don’t think Sam’s unexplained jealousy for Benny during the season could not be clearer. Dean was willing to sacrifice a good, good friend for Sam, but in the episode “Sacrifice,†Dean was shown he was not willing to sacrifice his brother for the greater good. That’s the point where it was shown that the brother’s chose each other. Sam let go of his glowing arm thing (and I don’t know what that was) and Dean let go of a lifetime dream – closing the gates of Hell so that demons could not hurt other people the way the Winchesters lives were hurt when a demon killed their mother.
kaz, i don’t think they’ll be going db or possession. there really isn’t a way for a demon to possess someone and not take over. they can for a few moments let the person out, but show has only shown that to be the case for a short time. i think it’ll be something new. the boys at the con indicated that this was something they haven’t done yet.
i don’t think sam is going to be cured in the first few minutes of he episode. i think the episode will be dean trying to find a way to heal sam. dean will have time to search for someone or something. i’m leaning towards something in the mol bunker that will lead dean in the right direction. to someone or something.
i’m very excited about s9 and it’s wonderful to see most everyone on the boards excited as well.
as far as speculating about s9, i have no clue to where they will go, but i look forward to finding out.
i do have hopes that we will get to see some old faces this coming year. but mostly i’d love to see the return of the samulet.
here’s to small wishes being granted right? 😆
Re: Benny.
Personally, I think the writers very consciously left his motivations ambiguous.
In Purgatory, with his mysterious knowledge of the exit, and his “he was a friend, now you are” attitude, it seemed he was going to be the bad guy, using Dean for his own purposes.
During the first half of the season, it was intentionally left, imo, difficult to decide whether he was as clean as he led Dean to believe.
I think, once it became clear that Benny was a new “fan favourite”, the writers decided to go with Benny the good vamp, fighting with his nature. While I think it could have originally gone either way, I think it is pretty clear now that Benny is/was a good guy.
Hi nappi815
No. 44 I was thinking more along the lines of the nurse whose demon possessor went awol while the nurse screamed (season when Sam trusts Ruby thing).
i am DYING for the amulet to return… please please I really think they need to concede to fandom on this one. In fact I think it would be the NUMBER ONE request of all requests on offer. It would be such a good metaphor for the healing of their relationship don’t u think?
if i were the prosecution in this case then i would want to know….
why did dean lie to sam and keep benny a secret in the first place if benny was so wonderful?
if dean trusted benny so much then why did he greet benny with a machete behind his back?
sam’s mistrust of benny came in part because dean lied about him for months and months. then dean gave no info to sam on benny except that he’s the reason he’s topside. info benny got from some mysterious source and never revealed to dean who told him.
benny’s first request to dean was to help him kill the vamp who turned him. benny’s reason for wanting out of purgatory was revenge. benny knew dean would help him because he did have dean’s back in purgatory. so while a bond was formed, benny still used dean because he knew dean would help him.
just because benny told dean the waitress was his granddaughter, it doesn’t make it so. like i said, she could’ve just been a girl he fancied and became friendly with.
as for desmond wanting benny to join the nest, that could easily be the case. but as i said, of all the states benny could’ve landed in, he coincidentally chose the one where desmond was. a vamp benny knew from his past.
oh and this conversation benny is having with dean, came after dean told benny he was being tailed. it also came after the killing of the two people, which as i said didn’t start happening until benny was informed martin was watching him. martin told sam that nobody had been killed yet but there was vamp activity and benny was there. the actual killing of the two humans came well after benny knew martin was following him. as a matter of fact, it seemed to me benny made sure martin was following him when the killings occurred. then benny told dean, it wasn’t him it was desmond framing him for not joining the nest. of course dean will believe his friend.
as i’ve said in my post, i don’t think benny was drinking humans. i think benny needed to kill. he started by killing those he sought revenge on. then he goes on to killing other vamps. but when martin had the waitress, benny killed a human for the first time in a long time. now he had the taste for it.
i stated in my post that benny needed to kill and was jonesing for it ever since he got out of purgatory because that’s what he was doing for the last 50yrs nonstop.
his friendship with dean was real. as a matter of fact his friendship was real enough to want to protect it. it’s my belief that benny lied to dean to do just that. . It’s not easy being a killer and having a friendship with a human who kills, but is not a killer.
@43 Once again, Ginger, where is the [i]proof[/i] that Benny was the ‘wrong guy’? Is he just the ‘wrong guy’ because you found him interesting and good? Where is it ‘canon’ that Desmond was doing the killing? The only vampire we saw standing over the body of a victim was Benny. The only vampire we saw with blood on his hands was Benny. The only vampire that Martin saw turn up a path and then came across a fresh victim was Benny. That’s canon. The only vampire in town that Martin knew about was Benny (though of course he’s been dubbed ‘unstable’ so apparently nothing he says can be believed and heaven’s forbid he actually be trusted).
In relation to Amy, the time Sam caught Amy she told Sam that Jacob’s fever had broken and there was no need for her to kill again. Sam believed her. Dean decided that wasn’t enough and killed her anyway. ‘You are what you are.’ He killed her because she had killed in the past and because he believed she would kill again. He killed her because he believed that Sam was too close to the situation to do it. Dean then went to great lengths to make sure Sam knew how wrong he was to trust Amy, a monster.
And now we have Benny, a vampire, a monster, whose sole reason for wanting to return to earth was to kill, only now, according to Dean,it’s no longer a case of ‘You are what you are’. He might be a vampire but unlike every other vampire, every other supernatural they’ve met, Benny is not a monster, a killer. No, Benny is Dean’s friend and so must be considered differently to all the other monsters out there. And I guess Dean isn’t too close to the situation, he’s not blinded by friendship and obligation? No, Sam is evidently the only one who falls prey to that.
And just a few questions, how did Martin find out about Benny’s relationship with Elizabeth and so know to use her against Benny. Wasn’t it Dean that told him? (Could this be indicative of Dean’s poor judgment? He had already decided that Martin was insane so why did he tell him this?) Why didn’t Dean bring Sam with him when he went to talk to Benny? I mean, if he trusted Benny so much then why deliberately tell Sam nothing about him and deliberately keep him from meeting him? Oh, if only Dean hadn’t shown such poor judgment and trusted his brother things could have been so different! Why didn’t Dean bring back something more than Benny’s word that he was innocent? Or is it a case that Dean expects to be trusted wholly and blindly, and his trust is only doled out to those who follow him without question? That would explain why he trust Benny, who fought by his side for a year but he doesn’t trust Sam who fought by his side for decades.
[quote](1) Benny willing agreed to having his head chopped off because he was tired of fighting his bloodlust and wanted to go “home†(also in Taxi Driver)[/quote] Or because he had killed in the past and was fearful he would kill again?
[quote](2) Sam’s direct narrative said that Sam was wrong about Benny (Sacrifice)[/quote] So [i]now[/i] we’re taking Sam at his word?? How does Sam saying that he was wrong about Benny prove that Benny wasn’t killing in 8.09 ? I mean, according to you he showed poor judgment before, perhaps he’s doing so again now? Actually, given how quickly Benny pounced on throats in [i]Taxi Driver[/i], it adds credibility to the idea that Benny was killing while topside.
[quote](3) Benny was clearly shown to be a good guy and a good friend to Dean by repaying his debt to Dean (Taxi Driver), as shown by the heartfelt hug Dean gave Benny.[/quote] If Benny was clearly shown to be a ‘good guy’ then TPTB would never have left any doubt about his ‘goodness’; and a lot of people still doubt. And sorry Ginger, but giving Dean a heartfelt hug doesn’t mean that Benny is automatically a good guy. And it’s weird how repaying his debt gave Benny exactly what he wanted (a way back into Purgatory), and being Dean’s friend gave Benny exactly what he wanted (a way out of Purgatory).
[quote](4) Desmond’s (that vamp we never saw standing over a dead body with blood on his hands) direct narrative confirmed that Desmond was expecting Benny to join his nest…….[/quote] And again, how does this show that Benny didn’t kill? For all we know, Desmond tracked Benny down, found him killing and wanted to get on board with him because of that. Vampires usually have packs but Desmond was on his own. He was the younger, less experienced vampire, after all. Wouldn’t it be a case that Desmond would join with Benny and not vice versa?
as far as sam goes, jealousy played a part, but it was dean keeping benny a secret that triggered the mistrust. sam kept ruby a secret in the beginning. so if anyone recognizes why one would keep someone a secret, it’s sam.
jealousy played a part in sam sending martin to spy on benny, but it was also something any other hunter would’ve done as well. now i’m not sure when sam sent benny. if it was right after blood brother, then i would say that common sense played more of a role in sending martin to just keep an eye on benny. if it was after southern comfort, i’d say it was 50/50 between jealousy and common sense.
i’ve also stated after watching taxi driver that it’s my belief that dean never really thought sam would kill benny. that comes from dean’s total confidence that benny would ride out with sam.
i believe that sam wouldn’t have killed benny. he was too in the dark to want to kill benny. sam would want answers. if sam wanted benny dead, he never had to tell dean he sent martin to spy on him in the first place. he could’ve gotten benny’s location and just killed him. you say there was no trust. i say there was. sam letting benny live was trust in dean. not a lot of trust but there was trust.
sam going with martin was about sam finding out the truth. sam could handle martin. if sam learned benny was killing then yes he might have killed him, but sam wouldn’t have killed benny without cause. as i said, sam was too in the dark regarding benny. sam wanted answers. he needed them.
i don’t believe dean wanted sam anywhere near benny and not for fear that sam would kill benny, but fear he would question him.
as for benny’s willingness to die in taxi driver. as much as he’s friends with dean, benny himself told dean that he didn’t belong. he wanted to go back. dean was doing him a favor. benny was a killer in a world he wasn’t allowed to kill in. it was too hard for him. so benny isn’t all about the goodness of his undead heart. friendship played a role, but benny wanted to go home and dean offered him a way back. if benny didn’t want to go back, i honestly don’t know that he would’ve helped. unlike you, i never trusted benny. now sam may have had a change in heart but i still don’t. and what does that say about sam other than he loves his brother more than anything. he was willing to ride benny out even with claims of him being jealous. sam told dean he got to see benny for himself. maybe that’s all sam ever really wanted from dean, but never got.
look i never meant for a debate so i’m going to bow out of this. this is supposed to be about s9 speculation not s8 speculation. so i will just agree to disagree and give my apologies to all of you out there for posting in the first place. it all kind of digressed. :-*
now here’s what we’re supposed to be talking about….regarding s9, hell i’m up for anything. i’m just so happy with where we are at. everyone is in a good mood and that’s such a nice change of pace. i’m looking forward to the mol storylines and i am curious as to who this new bad is supposed to be. what i really would love to see as i said earlier are some old faces.
i miss the ghostfacers and garth and ash and most of all the trickster.
sure do hope we get to see the alpha vamp again.
most importantly….i so want the samulet to come back.
[quote]
jealousy played a part in sam sending martin to spy on benny, but it was also something any other hunter would’ve done as well. .[/quote]
One small quibble, nappi815.
Any other hunter would NOT have sent anyone to spy on Benny… Waiting to see what Benny was up to…. Any other hunter would have simply killed him outright because he was a vampire.
ETA….And I’d also love to see the samulet come back. Provided that it does stay just between the two brothers.
@ #48 Tim the Enchanter: Why would you ask if Benny was the wrong guy because I liked the character? I think my post was pretty clear in citing where my conclusion came from. Benny is the wrong guy because that’s what was shown onscreen..
That said, a show where canon means nothing leaves a free-range landscape for differing views. It’s been interesting to see where others are coming from, but this really is not the thread for discussing points of previous episodes and I’m bowing out of this point — a point that been in contention throughout S8.
My point in this post is that a free-range landscape makes it impossible to speculate on where the show may go, who the players will be, or why they are playing at all. I think Carver is an excellent writer who offers up excellent ideas, but the writing staff between the premiere and the finale need to pick up their game or a new stable of experienced writers is needed. S8 was boring between Carver’s premiere and his finale, with too many throw-away episodes that were neither scary nor interesting. My hope for S9 is that the writers pick up their game and show some interest in the show and the Winchesters.
#48 Tim the Enchanter – Martin knew about Elizabeth because he found the picture in the woods. Dean killed Amy because she was dropping bodies in the present and her son could get sick again and she would start killing again. Quite frankly I’m tired of hearing about Amy. I don’t think she killed her mother only to save Sam but because her mother was abusive to her as well. Dean even questioned his own motives about Benny in “Southern Comfort” when he says, “Since when aren’t beheadings my thing?” Dean felt a special kinship with Benny and didn’t want to have to kill Benny himself. I don’t think he trusted Benny completely and that’s why he went to Louisiana. They had let Lenore go in the past so they had some belief that vamps could change. Dean did not want a confrontation between Sam and Benny. Dean protected both Benny and Sam because he could. Right or wrong, Dean follows his own morale compass. Is that fair? Doesn’t matter cause life’s not fair and decisions are made from perspectives that we have at the given moment. I don’t think a couple of hours with a girl when you are 14 or 15 should hold the same credence as a year together in purgatory fighting for your life . Sorry for adding to discussion but couldn’t help myself.
[quote][quote]
jealousy played a part in sam sending martin to spy on benny, but it was also something any other hunter would’ve done as well. .[/quote]
One small quibble, nappi815.
Any other hunter would NOT have sent anyone to spy on Benny… Waiting to see what Benny was up to…. Any other hunter would have simply killed him outright because he was a vampire.
i stand corrected. you win 😆
#52 Prix68
quote – Dean protected both Benny and Sam because he could. Right or wrong, Dean follows his own morale compass. Is that fair? Doesn’t matter cause life’s not fair and decisions are made from perspectives that we have at the given moment. I don’t think a couple of hours with a girl when you are 14 or 15 should hold the same credence as a year together in purgatory fighting for your life . Sorry for adding to discussion but couldn’t help myself. unquote
Prix – don’t apologize. I loved to read that as every time I see a post condemning Dean for what he did to Amy and what he did to keep Sam and Benny apart, I hear this is my head. How one can be compared to the other is beyond me, but then there are so many ways of looking at it and so many different perceptions from so many different fans with differing views (example: Deangirls, Samgirls) that it is inevitable I guess. And every other site is way worse for that than this one. (Thanks, Alice!)
Just happy to see another, Prix68, whose thoughts are the mirror of mine on this matter. 🙂
As for season 9, bring it on! I’m so blissed out it is still on and hopefully season 10 and even more! 😛
#48 Tim the Enchanter, first I want to say that I was one of the persons that thought that what happened with Benny is going to end bad. But…
Why didn’t Dean bring Sam with him when he went to talk to Benny? I mean, if he trusted Benny so much then why deliberately tell Sam nothing about him and deliberately keep him from meeting him? Why didn’t Dean bring back something more than Benny’s word that he was innocent? Or is it a case that Dean expects to be trusted wholly and blindly, and his trust is only doled out to those who follow him without question?
In first place I don’t know where Dean said that Sam couldn’t go with him or that Sam showed that he wanted to go with him.
And the second, well he could do it alone but he come back to tell Sam the story, what for me was trust, and look what it happened.
[quote][quote]
In first place I don’t know where Dean said that Sam couldn’t go with him or that Sam showed that he wanted to go with him.
[/quote]
#55 Hi Paloma, In Blood Brother the conversation went as follows:
SAM
And – and what exactly is that supposed to mean, you’ve got to go?
DEAN
Which words are giving you trouble?
SAM
We’re on the case, remember, Dean? The – the Winchester holy grail, “shut the gates of hell forever” case.
DEAN
Sure are. But in order to close the Gates of Hell, we need our Prophet, am I right? So step one – find Kevin Tran. Well, he ain’t here. But he wanted us to be, which means we’re probably as far away from him as he could possibly put us. So step two – find Kevin Tran. [He looks in the mini-bar.] You mind if I take the Toblerone?
DEAN leaves the motel room, followed by SAM.
SAM
Wait. Dean, seriously?
DEAN
Hey, the trail is dead, but the room is paid for. You got some research to do, and I got some personal crap I got to take care of. That’s all.
SAM
What does that mean – “personal”?
DEAN
Did you have a stroke? Vocabulary? Personal, as in my own grown-up personal – I don’t know – crap.
SAM
Damn it –
DEAN
What, Sam? Last I counted, you took a year off from the job. I need a day.
So not only does he say ‘stay here’ he gives him orders about what he is to do AND has yet another go at Sam to make sure he won’t argue with him.
And then in Citizen Fang:
DEAN I just need some time, Sammy.
MARTIN Oh, yeah. Let the fang take another life? I don’t think so.
SAM How much time do you need?
MARTIN [to SAM] You’re not actually considering this?
DEAN Couple hours, tops.
SAM And what if it turns out to be Benny?
DEAN Then it’s Benny, and I’ll deal with it!
SAM Couple hours, Dean. No more.
Here Sam shows real restraint. Dean admits there is a possibility that Benny is responsible for the killings and clearly (to me) indicates that he will kill Benny if it turns out that it is him. Sam thinks that there is something weird about the way that Dean trusts Benny and since he really believes that Benny is killing people he should insist on going along with Dean on what he considers to be a hunt, but he shows that he (at least) trusts his brother and lets Dean deal with it.
In both cases I say this clearly shows that Sam WOULD have gone with his brother and was told not to and to obey orders like a good little soldier.
In both these cases if Dean had dealt with the situation differently then we would never have gotten to the situation that occurred at the end of Citizen Fang as Sam would have had the opportunity to judge Benny for himself, an opportunity that Dean very specifically denied him.
st50 i mostly agree with your comment regarding benny but i think i disagree on this one point. i think benny was always meant to serve the purpose he did. i think he was deliberately written the way he was because again, carver and his perception thing. if you don’t mind i will digress one last time from the topic at hand and give you my train of thought as to why i disagree with you in this one respect. promise, last time. 😀
i think benny was meant to contribute in the misperception story that has been playing out in s8. my take:
dean lies to sam hiding benny. i think it’s about dean’s mistrust of benny and his own self doubt letting benny topside. i think sam saw dean’s lying about benny as his distrust in him.
dean’s old grudges against sam thought to be forgiven, apparently are not as sam learns in sc. but to add fuel to the fire, dean sings benny’s praises as the only one he can count on. my take on that, the more dean says it, the more dean believes it himself, again validating that he did the right thing by letting benny out.
dean’s text. dean may have just been avoiding a confrontation bet sam & benny, but it’s still my belief that it was not due to fear that sam would kill benny, as you may know, i still say it was fear that sam would confront benny & start asking all the questions dean refused to answer. i stated in my other posts my strong belief in this so i won’t belabor the matter. point i’m trying to make is that while dean may have thought this text to be a way to avoid confrontation, sam saw it as dean choosing a vampire over him. sam said in torn & frayed, “this is where we are? that you would make me believe that something happened to someone i love the same way it happened to jessica”..paraphrasing there. but i think you get what i mean. sam saw dean’s intentions as he was willing to hurt sam in the worst way in order to protect benny. so benny comes first for dean in sam’s eyes. i can see how sam could come to believe this.
so what does sam do ? he does what any desperate brother might do in this case. he makes an ultimatum. benny has to go. it’s sam trying to hang on to dean the only way he thought he could. it was risky too. when dean walked out the door, i can only imagine how devastated sam felt, believing that his fear was correct. sam lost his brother to a vampire. my opinion, dean left when sam made the ulitmatum because he knew the text was more out of line than he intended. sam hit him with an unintentioned truth. whenever sam nails dean with the truth, dean hits him or he storms off. the text was over the line. sam’s anger & hurt was more than dean expected. yes dean was angry at the initial ultimatum, but i also believe he was angry with himself pushing sam too far. i know dean stormed off all in a huff & he claimed cas didn’t need sam, but i think it’s more because dean couldn’t face sam at that time. i’ll tell you this, it’s my belief that even if cas & kevin didn’t nudge dean in the right direction, dean would still have made that call to benny. i like the way that it went down, as cas knows the boys well enough to know when to step in. since bobby wasn’t around, i’m glad there was someone there to put the boys in the same room & make them stow their crap. working together, it was right. it was the way it was supposed to be. that little reminder was something they both needed.
when all is said & done the boys work together, both seemingly giving up what’s important to them. dean cutting benny loose for the time being & sam giving up any notion of living normal.
but the gauntlet was thrown so to speak. dean chose sam for the time being, but according to sam’s misperception as he confessed in sacrifice, sam believes that dean considers benny and cas above him. sam’s misconceived perception is that dean saw sam as a failure. a disappointment. someone dean cannot trust. benny’s role in this was pretty simple. dean had to care about benny. all the misperception between the boys resulted in sam believing that benny came first in dean’s eyes. dean’s willingness to kill benny in sacrifice had to be a difficult because otherwise sam wouldn’t have believed dean when he told him that “there is nothing past or present that i would put in front of you, it’s never been like that. I need you to see that. I’m begging you”. that speech might not have held the same meaning for had dean not cared for benny to begin with.
i guess my long ass winded point is that , i think benny from the get go had his purpose, regardless of what fans thought of him.
i still don’t trust benny. i still equate him with ruby. ruby in her own way loved sam. she helped both boys & she most certainly saved both of their lives. but ruby in the end had her own agenda. i feel the same about benny. i think he had his own agenda. revenge. I think once he got his revenge, he was stuck in world he didn’t belong in. benny spent 50 yrs in purgatory killing most every minute of every day in order to survive. i’m sorry, but there’s no way a few months topside can change what benny ultimately is. not even dean winchester can do that. if benny had more time, it’s my belief and this is just speculation on my part, but it’s my belief that benny would’ve succumbed to his natural instincts..which is killing. jmo of course.
no more going off course. this was just something i had to let out and i appreciate the fact that i was able to do it here.
i promise now for good to go back on topic. i’m sure all this stuff is getting tiresome for a lot of you. again my apologies.
it’s all about s9 now 😆
The killing of Amy has been done to death however what happened there was more than Dean killing her . And really I have never cared how long she and Sam knew each other , she cared enough to save his life .
I realize the whole thing around Benny and Dean but others here have made better points than I could of Sam’s reaction to him .
Hey Nappi815,
I’m not disagreeing with you in the slightest.
I agree with every word. 🙂
Benny most definitely had a purpose for the season, planned exactly as you have outlined.
My only point was that it could have ultimately gone either way. Benny was good bagged-blood-drinking vampire, or Benny was still a killer. And either way, good or evil, it wouldn’t have significantly changed how the plan played out. Dean would still have tried to trust Benny (whether or not he should have) and hide him from Sam, Benny would still have been used to rescue Sam from Purgatory, and Sam would still have had all the same feelings of inferiority to a vampire.
I think that ultimately deciding to hint Benny was a good vampire was a nod to the fans appreciation of Ty.
I also agree…. on to the speculating.
st50..you could be right. i was at the con in nj and when ty was visiting all the tables he sat next to me. he’s a nice guy and the man does like to have a good time, i’ll tell you that. i do like ty, don’t get me wrong.
i didn’t care for benny. i found his storyline boring. watching it the first time, i found myself finding little things to do when benny and dean were on, and i never do that. i’ll probably ending up with a crossword puzzle watching blood brother again tonite. don’t get me wrong, didn’t like amelia either. she’s just as boring as benny. but sammy is so pretty in the flashbacks that i do pay attention.
blood brother explained stuff. it made it clear to me that benny was all about revenge. that was his ultimate motive for wanting out of purgatory.
sam, well amelia pretty much proved to me how broken sam was. it was obvious from all the fbs that sam didn’t seek out normal. he sought her out because he recognized someone who was broken and lost. he was with her so he can save her. he couldn’t save dean, so he needed to save her. i get it. but i still didn’t like her and i still wished they spent less time on those fbs. i just wished it was all done in 2 eps instead of having to see her in so many.
but hey, like i said, both characters served their purpose. sam’s focus on amelia enabled him to focus on someone else’s pain. he could be there for her. he can save her. and in the mean time sam was able to gain his strength back. he was able to heal mentally and emotionally. yes he enjoyed some of the normalcy that came with being with her, but i never saw him smiling or happy in any fb, except the bday cake. basically amelia allowed sam to have a much needed vacation from the horror that was his life. he imploded and ran away and she was the little island he ran to. but when he healed, when the time was right, he left her. he knew he had to go back to his life and he knew this even before he found out don was alive.
benny helped dean in purgatory. he used him for his own goals, but he still made a friend in dean. ultimately benny’s purpose was to convince sam that dean did indeed love him above all others, no matter how dean may have sometimes made it seem.
there ends that.
so do you think the change in sam will be some kind of a new power? i wonder if it’ll have anything to do with angels. i wonder sam will be able to take down angels with something other than the angel sword. kind of like he was able to take down demons.
i guess it depends on who or what dean uses to help save sam.
what do you think?
#56 Eilf, thanks for your comment 🙂 , I was refering more of blood brothers, rereading Tim the Enchanter I realized that it was necesarely go on that way.
Oh boy, you make a comment that you don’t like a motive of something and it seems to spin out of control!!!
Granted I haven’t really read all the posts about the discussion with regard to Benny. But from what I read they kind of went off from the point I was trying to make.
If Sam being jealous of Dean trusting Benny more than him had any part of his actions to send Martin to watch Benny it calls into Sam’s motives.
Best way to describe it is that him being concerned about what Benny was capable of with that in the background was Sam doing the right thing for the wrong reasons and considering what Sam and Dean do, that isn’t exactly a good thing. In some ways it is kind of worse than him doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.
I know some have said any other hunter would have just killed Benny without any proof. But I wasn’t talking about any hunter, I was talking about Sam. Sam, who has let monsters he had seen with his own eyes kill and let them walk because they promised not to do it again. But he needed proof for Benny compared to Kate the werewolf, Amy, the two witches, Lenore? Why? Not Benny himself because Sam hadn’t any proof he had done anything, but because of Benny’s relationship with Dean.
Now I get people say he was concerned about Dean, fine. That Benny could have gone either way, true. But with the bickering about trust and the only two things Sam had to throw back at possessed Dean in Southern Comfort was him walking if Dean didn’t drop the not looking and Benny when Dean brought up everything else, gives the impression that Sam’s inferiority complex about Benny started earlier than Taxi Driver. It tainted Sam’s concerns about Benny with his issues with Dean – that is the wrong reason for Sam to be so gungho to go with Martin to ‘talk’ to Benny after Martin cold cocked Dean and taking Martin along with him.
As for the text I don’t want to go into it because as much as I completely understand why Dean did it and actually I agree with him with his motives because really what was the alternatives? I hated the aftermath and Sam’s reaction to it.
Basically, I felt the way Sam’s actions with Benny then having Dean become glued to the kitchen to look after Sam during the trials so soon after that gave the brother bond a kicking it didn’t need and pushed it to a place that isn’t comfortable for me.
I wish for more equilibrium next season, but with the spoilers coming out I doubt I’m going to see that.
Oh you make a comment that you didn’t like where the motives of a character took him and it seems to start a big discussion.
I haven’t read all the posts but the ones I have read kind of missed the point I was trying to make.
I felt that there was a bit of jealousy and Sam acting out his issues with Dean with regard to his ‘concerns’ about Benny. It doesn’t matter if Martin had found Benny gorging himself on the whole of New Orleans because if Sam’s motives weren’t solely about concerns about Benny himself, he was doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. And considering what Sam and Dean do, that is a scary place to be.
Now I know some say that other hunters wouldn’t have had Benny watched to ensure he wasn’t feeding on humans, they would have simply just killed him/ But I wasn’t talking about other hunters, I was talking about Sam. Sam who had let other monsters, some of which he had seen kill, walk after they made a promise not to kill again – Kate, Lenore and Amy. What exactly made Benny so different? His relationship to Dean, that Dean was asking for Benny to be trusted after Sam found out about him? Okay Sam could be hurt about Dean keeping a secret but Benny himself isn’t different from the monsters he let go – he is a monster asking for a second chance.
Now I get that people say that Sam was concerned and that is why he sent Martin, fine. But after Southern comfort and the bickering between the brothers about trust, it pushed the issue past concern about what Benny could do into what was going on with the brothers. If it hadn’t I don’t think we would have had a Sam who was so gung ho to go ‘talk’ to Benny with Martin straight after cold cocking Dean.
As for the text I am not going into it because…well I hated Sam’s reaction to it and completely got why Dean sent it.
Basically I was trying to say that Sam’s actions with Benny almost immediately followed with a Dean married to the kitchen to take care of a sick Sam pushed the brother bond to a place I didn’t like in season 8.
In season 9, I’d wish for more equilbrium but from the spoilers I’ve seen with Dean’s main story essentially being how Sammy gets better I don’t hold out much hope.
sorry kind of double post, my post disappeared and didn’t appear so I thought it was lost to the internet gods when I typed out #64
#63 Fazzie, hi there, welcome to one of the various hornets nests it is dangerous to kick 😕 The basic argument is whether a) Sam is jealous of Benny and decided to kill him or b) Sam is worried about Dean because Dean is hiding his friendship with a ‘monster’ and so decides to keep an eye on Benny, sharing the information with Dean in an honest and above board manner when it became necessary.
There is absolutely no definitive answer.
(the whole Amy thing is also a hornets nest as I discovered when I walked into it when discussing Citizen Fang)
The text was just plain wrong on Dean’s part and he should have apologized for it …
Some people will agree with your interpretation, others (like me) will totally disagree. Have fun 😀
Fazzie of the three Kate, Lenore and Amy, Kate hadn’t killed. Lenore said, and it was accepted by everyone, that she wasn’t killing, and Amy was killed by Dean because Sam wouldn’t do it.
Sam was going on evidence that Benny HAD killed.
#66 eilf
Hi there, it does seem a hornets nest considering it is a thread about season 9. I only brought it up in respect with the OP about the brother bond not changing apart from the organic way sibling bonds change.
It got the crap kicked out of it and Sam didn’t come out smelling of roses. Now in season 9, the boys being on the same page or not, I think a lot of work is needed though I doubt we’ll get it other than a quick white wash or told – its fixed.
But I guess you are right, some will agree with me, others won’t, but such is life 😆
As for the text, I disagree because it is a tough call with regard to the sending of it as I can’t see the alternative of what Dean could do at that point because he wasn’t there with Sam and Martin, knew what Benny was capable of even if he was acting purely in self defence – could Sam really have controlled Martin and Benny at the same time? I doubt it.
However the pre planning of it though was wrong, true and Dean should apologise for that. Though Sam’s reaction to it did make me want to slap the man.
#67 Elif
Kate had killed, she killed her boyfriends flatmate right infront of the camera that was on at the time. She ripped Brian apart out of anger because he had turned her and killed her boyfriend.
The boys watched the film of it and then she begged to be given a chance.
#67 Elif
As for Sam going on evidence that Benny had killed – no he was going on the assumption that Benny had killed.
Martin hadn’t seen Benny kill – he fell over a body that was on the road that Benny had gone down. But there was the possibility of another vampire that Martin hadn’t seen.
But that doesn’t change my point – even if Benny had worked his way through an elementary school if sending Martin to watch Benny in any shape or form was to do with Sam’s issues with Dean then Sam’s motives aren’t pure – it wasn’t sending Martin to check just in case, it was sending Martin to show Benny wasn’t trustworthy and those are two completely different things even if the ending is the same.
One is Sam caring, one is Sam being a douche and a dangerous douche at that.
[quote]
so do you think the change in sam will be some kind of a new power? i wonder if it’ll have anything to do with angels. i wonder sam will be able to take down angels with something other than the angel sword. kind of like he was able to take down demons.
i guess it depends on who or what dean uses to help save sam.
what do you think?[/quote]
Hi nappi, I will take a stab at it if you don’t mind. But first I want to say how much I like your posts. You have decided to see the best possible scenario with regards to poor beleagured Sam and you stick to it, even when the evidence is (not yet) there 😀 Cheers me up no end!
Anyway I believe, this being SPN after all, there are only worst-case scenarios and less worst-case when it comes to Sam’s ‘cure’ (it does sound like it is only temporary)
Worst case: Dean is talked into injecting Sam with demon blood – specifically Crowley’s (since they have a demon on hand). This is wrong on so many levels … for one thing all this blood injecting is basically ick. And for another it is like putting vodka in an alcoholic’s orange juice – it is just plain wrong. And thirdly this might result in some sort of psychic link between Sam and Crowley, or Crowley being king of hell might bring on Yellow Eye’s original concept of Sam taking over. (like I said; worst case)
Not quite such worst case: Dean gets some fallen angel blood and injects Sam with that. No idea where that goes but it will undoubtedly not go well for Sam. I just hope they don’t do this because I like Sam as a human.
Slightly bad case: Sam gets possessed by Bobby’s ghost, Dean having talked Bobby into doing it. This shores up Sam’s system until they have time to find a proper cure. This likely involves rewriting ghost canon but, sure, why not?
Slightly better than all the worser cases: any of the above things happen but Dean is not actively involved in it, he is not sharing information for some half reasonable reason thereby meaning he wasn’t just telling Sam any old flannel about honesty in Sacrifice to stop him from completing the trials.
I honestly can’t think of a scenario that will have positive results for Sam. But it would be nice if there were one. I would love for Sam to be human this season.
As an aside I can’t seen Sam being able to cure demons the way he was trying to cure Crowley because it seems like he doesn’t know that finishing a cure might not bring the end of the trials on him (too many negatives there).
I wonder will Dean try his hand at it? I wonder will he try it on Crowley? I wonder what Dean might think he needs to confess?
[quote]#67 Elif
As for Sam going on evidence that Benny had killed – no he was going on the assumption that Benny had killed.
Martin hadn’t seen Benny kill – he fell over a body that was on the road that Benny had gone down. But there was the possibility of another vampire that Martin hadn’t seen.
But that doesn’t change my point – even if Benny had worked his way through an elementary school if sending Martin to watch Benny in any shape or form was to do with Sam’s issues with Dean then Sam’s motives aren’t pure – it wasn’t sending Martin to check just in case, it was sending Martin to show Benny wasn’t trustworthy and those are two completely different things even if the ending is the same.
One is Sam caring, one is Sam being a douche and a dangerous douche at that.[/quote]
Wow…, and there it is, as always, Sam’s motives have to be pure, He is the only one who has to have pure motives. Everyone else can do what they like but Sam has (and only by your assessment) complex reasons for doing things and you call him names.
Dean on the other hand planned out a way to totally freak out Sam way in advance. Well his motives may have been ‘pure’ but pure what? Because that was not a good, brotherly, kind or selfless act.
I will take your word for it about Kate, I should have checked that before I posted.
Per Wikipedia:
Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion. At the other extreme is evidence that is merely consistent with an assertion but does not rule out other, contradictory assertions, as in circumstantial evidence.
I said that Dean’s pre planning of the text was wrong and it was.
I’m not calling Sam’s names because if Dean did the exact same thing and sending someone to watch a monster because of his issues with a completely someone else, I’d call him out on it too. I’d call anyone out for that, I am for the text – Dean preplanning that thing was the wrong thing to do but him sending it was right call.
As for evidence Sam was taking heart in could lead to the death of someone that his brother was friends with you’d think he’d want it as strong as possible and there was another vamp in there. As Martin hadn’t seen Benny kill and Martin was loopy there was a real possbility it wasn’t cut and dried as Martin was painting it.
Can I ask where exactly where do you think Sam and Dean’s relationship would have been if Sam had killed Benny then Desmond had come out of the wood work and killed again and again? Not only would the actual perpetrator not been stopped, but Dean’s friend would have been dead and unlike Amy , Benny wouldn’t have killed anyone.
Sorry Fezzie I am really not willing to discuss this any further. I don’t call either (any) of the characters names, (and it is against house rules anyway) and I particularly dislike that word.
That is fine Eilf, I get you don’t like that word. I was just trying to explain my point as clearly as I could before we got bogged down in the whole but ‘Benny may have been guilty’ agruement again.
after rewatching bb & sc back to back i’m thinking sam heard from martin after the spectre deal. sam was pissed at the end of bb. when he shook benny’s hand and it felt cold. sam was pissed in sc too. to defend dean’s lies, he brought up sam not looking. then he made a comment that dean had a vamp friend while sam turned off his phone for a year. sam defended himself by telling dean to stop trying to turn it on him. garth asked dean where he was & then how he got out. sam was waiting for the answer & dean changed the subject. so it’s obvious to sam by mid ep that dean is hiding benny for a reason he won’t say. my guess, by this point sam has no trust for benny & that’s before dean goes off on his spectral rant. dean touches the coin & tries to kill sam going over sam’s greatest hits. the db, ruby, losing his soul & not telling dean he was with samuel for a year. he ended with you left me in purgatory to die for a girl. now ruby sam paid for. letting lucifer out, sam paid for. losing his soul, not his fault, but he still paid the price & souless sam was the one who kept dean in the dark about hunting with samuel. so dean’s anger is pretty irrational. he’s taking out on sam what souless sam did.mind you, he totally disregarded sam when he told dean he believed he was dead & decided that sam didn’t look for him because of a girl.( i keep wondering why dean would rather believe sam didn’t look for a girl then listen to sam when he said he thought he was dead. my guess is that maybe it’s easier for dean to be angry at sam then to believe that something really had to be seriously wrong with sam for him not to look, better to deal with anger than guilt?) then he proceeded to tell sam that benny was more of a brother in the last year than sam ever was. low blow dean. he also told him both cas & he let him down. there you have it ladies & gentlemen. that’s when dean went to far. specter or not, doesn’t matter, what matters is what sam believes & when dean told sam benny was more of a brother, well sam’s face was crushed. that was the moment when sam’s common sense was trumped by jealousy and pain.
what’s ironic is that during this rant garth was there trying to stop dean. when dean said sam left him in purgatory, garth’s first words were “i don’t know i wasn’t there but something must have been terribly wrong”. a little shout out by adam glass reminding the audience again that there was something wrong with sam when dean died. glass did it again when he had sam tell amelia, (i apologize cuz i thought he said it to dean,) that he lost his brother recently and he imploded & ran away. (so i’m sorry dean for having thought sam said it to you). sam was telling us, the fandom, that something was wrong with him when you died. two times glass dropped the hint to us, two times.
i digress, after the rant garth in all his glory told dean to basically let it go, you can’t change the past, that all the boys had were ea. other & that’s a good thing. Garth is my new hero by the way. 😆 it was at the end when dean claimed he didn’t remember what he said that sam told him he didn’t need the penny to say what he said.he told dean amelia’s name & where they lived & he told dean that he’d explained to him where he was coming from from the jump as to why he didn’t look(hello, he thought he was dead) and finally, finally he defended himself by telling dean that he had benny, he had his secrets & he was tired of dean kicking him since he got back from purgatory. he told dean to move on or he would. dean agreed. he had a look on his face that told me he knew sam was right. but then, as an after thought it happened. yes sam did it. he told dean that it might he him that ices benny one day. dean told sam they’d cross that bridge when they came to it & sam told dean “you keep saying that”. end scene. so that’s when i think dean planned on using the text. as for sam sending martin. i know sam was angry & hurt & jealous. but & here’s where the but comes in, as angry, hurt & jealous as sam was, he did arrange for martin to only keep an eye on benny. now i know sam had all those emotions, but i don’t think sam gave martin the job just because of those emotions. sam made a threat yes, but that was in the heat of a very stressful moment. let’s not forget that martin called on sam. i don’t think martin called that night because sam & dean were in the car together. martin had to have called soon after. sam didn’t seek him out. martin let sam know he was out, asked for a job & sam sent martin to babysit benny. this could’ve been days later. sam has cooled off since that moment. sam may have issues but it doesn’t take away from the fact that dean is still hiding something about benny. he won’t say how they got out. sam knows nothing & dean is still keeping sam in the dark. why? if benny is more of a brother as dean claims then why is dean hiding what he & benny did in purgatory. sam’s mistrust is legit. he has every reason not to trust benny & no understanding why his brother is still keeping secrets. so while i agree that sam has other motives that include jealousy, fear & resentment, he’s still a hunter first. as sam said, any hunter worth his salt would make sure benny wasn’t killing. i still hold firm to my belief that sam would not have killed benny wihout cause. sam would’ve confronted benny and demanded answers. if sam meant the threat he had made regarding benny in sc, he never would’ve told dean that he sent martin to babysit. he would’ve gotten martin to give him benny’s location & sam would’ve snuck out at night and gone off to kill benny.
so dean’s preplanned text. sorry, not buying the he had no choice excuse. because first off after sc, dean should’ve opened up to sam about benny, but he still kept everything from sam. this not only hurts sam but makes him mistrustful. even given the fact that dean didn’t tell sam the truth, dean knew from sam’s confession that he sent martin that sam’s threat was just that. otherwise, as i said, dean know sam could’ve just kept it to himself & just killed benny. so while i understand why dean prepared the text at the time he did, there was no cause for him to actually use it. sam gave dean the time he asked for citizen fang. sam went with martin, but he was calm and collected enough to think clearly. sam didn’t go off half cocked. martin may have been the wild card, but sam was not. sam gave no inclination that he was doing nothing more than checking out martin’s story. as i’ve stated before, i dont think dean was worried so much about sam killing benny as he was about sam confronting benny. the only one dean had to worry about killing benny was martin, not sam. dean sent the text to ensure sam leaves, most likely expecting martin to forget the whole thing. but crazy martin didn’t forget the whole thing and sam was the only one who could’ve kept martin at bay. we all know how it ended.
martin’s death, well that’s on martin. but if dean had just been honest with sam in the first place, could this have been avoided? i think so.
but that’s what this season was all about. misperception. as garth put it, “both of your are talking, but noone seems to be listening”
i think if garth pulls off the mask… we’d all find out, he’s really yoda
I really hope that the secret cure is something we haven’t thought of or seen before. It would be a bit disappointing if it had anything to do with blood from anyone or anything. And I hope they can keep spoiler free but there is a long wait and things do slip out. Just, please don’t kill Bobby again!
[quote]I really hope that the secret cure is something we haven’t thought of or seen before. It would be a bit disappointing if it had anything to do with blood from anyone or anything. And I hope they can keep spoiler free but there is a long wait and things do slip out. Just, please don’t kill Bobby again![/quote]
i’m with you. and it sounded to me from the interviews that they were leaning more in that direction. i kind of hope it’s mol related. you think maybe it could go back to the thule? not necromancy but some kind of spell or something tried by them…too far a stretch huh…
i don’t think it’s going to be blood related or even deal related. i think it’s something new.
they said bobby would return in a way we wouldn’t expect but it was part of the lore so it’s not out of the blue type thing. he’s only in the first ep that we know of..i don’t think he grabbed on to an angel while they were falling…so i have to wonder what they’ll do. i don’t think they can kill bobby, he’s already dead. 😆
[quote][quote]I really hope that the secret cure is something we haven’t thought of or seen before. It would be a bit disappointing if it had anything to do with blood from anyone or anything. And I hope they can keep spoiler free but there is a long wait and things do slip out. Just, please don’t kill Bobby again![/quote]
i’m with you. and it sounded to me from the interviews that they were leaning more in that direction. i kind of hope it’s mol related. you think maybe it could go back to the thule? not necromancy but some kind of spell or something tried by them…too far a stretch huh…
i don’t think it’s going to be blood related or even deal related. i think it’s something new.
they said bobby would return in a way we wouldn’t expect but it was part of the lore so it’s not out of the blue type thing. he’s only in the first ep that we know of..i don’t think he grabbed on to an angel while they were falling…so i have to wonder what they’ll do. i don’t think they can kill bobby, he’s already dead. :lol:[/quote]
I would really love it if they did come up with something new / different. I would prefer it to any of my scenarios 🙂
I have an idea that we might be seeing Bobby in flashbacks, and I do kinda think that Dean isn’t going to be directly the cause of the secret.
Nappi815, in blood brothers Sam knows the portal, so I don’t know what he was supossed to tell him more. In the other hand, Dean made the message when Sam left Dean unconscious and chained to a heater for going with Martin. So Dean yes, but Martin no? He seems very willingly to kill Benny.
Yes the message that he had to made was cold movement, but the worse what the circunstances for use it.
Does anyone have any thoughts on the whole curing demons thing? Will Sam still be able to do it? Or will curing a demon finish the trial for him except for the spell?
If the spell is required (and so it IS safe for Sam to cure demons) does that mean that he could have safely finished curing Crowley?
Or is Sam free of the trials now?
Will Dean or Castiel or Kevin be able to do the cures instead?
Would a cured demon be able to cure other demons?
i just finished watching blood brothers a little while ago paloma and sam knows nothing of any portal. blood brothers had scenes flashing back to dean in purgatory with benny and cas, but that was all. mostly it was benny bitching about dean wanting cas around as he was a beacon for the leviathan. benny also griped about cas not being human and not being able to go thru the portal. the other flashbacks shown were of sam with ameiia. sam didn’t even meet benny til the end of the eppy on the dock. benny introduced himself, told sam he heard alot about him offered his hand which sam took, then sam realizing benny was a vamp was slowly going for his knife, dean shook his head no, benny told the boys they had a lot to talk about and scene ended with a very upset sam. sam had no idea about any portal ever. he didn’t even know about the portal in taxi driver. that’s why dean sent benny to get sam. if you recall, sam was very panicked when he told bobby that he had no idea how to get out when ajay didn’t show up. so i have to say you are mistaken.
as for the text, dean told sam at the end of citizen fang, soon after sam realized the text was from dean, when he made the text and dean told him it had been weeks. it was a preplanned move that dean was ready to use when the time came.
as i’ve stated above, that move never had to be had dean just been open with sam in the first place. for all the reasons i stated above, i still hold firm that dean wasn’t so much worried about sam killing benny as much as dean was worried about sam confronting benny. the only wild card on the table was martin.
so again, i guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this.
“One is Sam caring, one is Sam being a douche and a dangerous douche at that.”
I find this statement completely unnecessary…. can we please try and find a better way to defend our arguments without resorting to this kind of thing? Ugh.
I agree with eilf, the text thing was despicable and Sam had good reason to be hurt. The one person Sam trusted to always have his back is the one person who exploited his greatest vulnerabilities against him. Had anyone on the show (Bobby, Cas, Crowley even Meg or one of the more disagreeable angels like Uriel) done that to Sam I would have been horrified, but to have Dean do it was just the absolute worst. It was an enormous betrayal IMO.
“Dean preplanning that thing was the wrong thing to do but him sending it was right call.” Dean’s motives for pre-planning the text weren’t pure, but his sending of the text was pure somehow? How does that work? If you plan to exploit someone’s weaknesses to take advantage of that situation, then that is an impure motive; the carrying out of that impure motive to achieve an end is also impure because the end result was to dupe, and trick and take advantage, which is exactly what happened. And Dean is allowed to be conflicted in his motives but Sam isn’t? Dean can do the wrong thing for the wrong reason and that’s ok, but Sam can’t even do the right thing for the wrong reason (in your opinion, I had zero problem with Sam’s motivations in his putting Martin on Benny’s trail). That’s a glaring double standard IMO. I find Sam’s motivations far more honorable than Dean’s in this instance.
And as for the oft repeated “What else should Dean have done” argument. He could have told Sam the truth about Benny for starters, he could have taken Sam with him to meet Benny, let them talk and let Benny himself convince Sam of the second vampire for seconds. He could not have sent that awful, awful text and removed Sam’s influence from Martin for thirds. Sam was perfectly capable of handling Martin and was in charge of how Martin was involved in the case, that is until Dean tricked him and sent him off on a wild goose chase thus leaving Martin to his own devices.
And about the whole “killing” aspect of both Amy and Benny. Amy was actively killing, that is true; she had killed her own mother in the past and had probably killed several others before she figured out how to survive off the dead pituitary glands from the morgue. It’s also true that Benny was not definitively shown to have killed any humans except Martin in the here and now (although I have my doubts about that, Desmond or no Desmond). But it was made quite plain that Benny had spent close to 100 years on earth as a vampire before he was killed and sent to purgatory, and in that time he killed hundreds maybe even thousands of people with his band of pirate vampires. If we are going to decide which monster has more right to live via a body count then Amy should win that one.
[quote]Does anyone have any thoughts on the whole curing demons thing? Will Sam still be able to do it? Or will curing a demon finish the trial for him except for the spell?
If the spell is required (and so it IS safe for Sam to cure demons) does that mean that he could have safely finished curing Crowley?
Or is Sam free of the trials now?
Will Dean or Castiel or Kevin be able to do the cures instead?
Would a cured demon be able to cure other demons?[/quote]
hey ..if i knew there was going to be a test, i would’ve studied 😛 😆
well here’s the thing..sam was undergoing the trials and the last item on the to do list was to cure a demon. this was of course left undone. so in essence the trials were never completed. that being the case, i don’t know if there is an expiration date on the whole trial thing. i mean if sam cures a demon does it count as fulfilling the trial? or when sam collapsed after the God light left his arm, did that mean time was up on the trials? once the light went dim, now sam is free to start over ..curing demons just as dean could, without repercussion.
i wonder if the answer would be in the tablet…who has the tablet now anyway, don’t the boys have it?
It was hard said that Carver doesn’t understand the show or anyone else for that matter. But if he want to break canon, ok but for a good cause. And some of them I don’t have very clear why he did it. (Example: we had seen like a dozen of witches, neither of them have a familiar, although I have to recognise that there wasn’t two episodes that they are equals. The fairy was another one. I know that the couldn’t make it like Sam was more than 24 hours, but seriously that when he found boby’s prison it was hearing the girl screams it seems like he was like ten minutes).
I don’t need a storyarc for Dean, but if I had to see another episode of he giving people food and hearing his complainins, I’m going to make my parents crazy
About the cure…I am hoping too that it’s something really cool and new (like angels falling, didn’t see that coming and it was way cool, or the MOL). Having it be MOL related would be good to keep that part of the new story alive and useful, but I was kind of hoping that it had something to do with Purgatory. I have no idea how that could work, but it would be nice to have Dean put to use something he learned or brought back with him from Purgatory. It would keep him directly involved and help revive the purgatory storyline which I think still has a lot of life left in it.
nappi815, I think that in 8×07 Dean mentioned it. The rest is your opinion and I respect it.
i think carver does get the show. i mean, carver was there for seasons 3-5. he was one of the writers that created the riff in s4 and he was involved in the story arc that had sam redeem himself in s5. carver gave us episodes that had great insight on both boys. who knows if when carver left if he knew there was a s6. i don’t know. what i do know is that when carver came back all the issues that he was a part of creating was still there. he was away for two years and the boys were still at a place where they shouldn’t have been. most of the complaints about s7 were that the boys didn’t act like they loved ea. other, minus a few eps in the beginning. they both had so much loss that they were numb to even ea. other. i would imagine that carver caught up on s6 and s7 and his decision to create conflict so that the boys can end up where they were in sacrifice, in my opinion, though frustrating in the beginning, resulted in what i have been waiting for for at least four years. sam’s voice. and what a beautiful voice it is. but for dean to finally get inside of sam’s head, to finally understand how much sam loves him, that sam would prefer dying to disappointing dean yet again. that sam would consider his greatest sin to be letting his brother down. what a revelation for dean to hear. if sam’s emotional breakdown isn’t proof positive to dean, how much his brother truly loves him and how high regard sam holds dean, then i don’t know what could. the road was a bit bumpy for like 8 out of 10 eps, but sam and dean reached the rainbow in my opinion. their relationship starting now is truly based on a mutual understanding that they truly need ea. other and they chose ea. other. carver did that. so, i have to disagree with those who said carver doesn’t know the boys. carver said that just because someone doesn’t do the thing they’re expected to do it means it’s the wrong thing. carver and company have indictated in a few episodes that something was wrong with sam after dean disappeared. dean saw things the way he wanted to see them, but not the way they really were.
my hope for s9 is that dean gets to learn what really happened to sam that night dean disappeared. that’s the one thing i really would like to see. 🙂 not because i need to see it, though i’d like to. but because i think for dean to truly move on and let go, it would be healthy for him to finally ask the question he never asked sam…”what happened the night i disappeared”.
nappi815 you are on fire girl! I have loved all of your posts on this thread; great insight and detail. I agree and would have attempted to say something similar, but you have done it better than I ever could.
I too hope for some clarity in season 9 about Sam’s missing months and more detail about where his head was at. There was quite a nice dialogue unfolding on the Bitterness Thread about the hows and whys of Sam not looking for Dean, with many great and well considered analysis as to how in or out of character Sam’s actions (or non-actions) were when Dean vanished. For me, what he ended up doing or not doing is actually rather immaterial at this point. I just want more info on the WHY. “My world imploded” and “I ran” is all Sam has said about the matter. 5 words is not enough for me to fully understand why Sam would not look. If you want me, as a fan to buy into his words then I need more insight into his emotions and his actions.
If you are correct (and it is my opinion that you are) then it was easier for Sam to let Dean think it was “because of a girl” rather than admit that he felt had failed Dean yet again. I think Sam even convinced himself it was about Amelia until the end of the season when he finally faced how much of a failure to Dean he felt he had been. And clearly Dean was totally shocked by Sam’s revelation. I don’t think that Dean had been thinking along those lines at all. Dean gets angry and vents his frustrations in verbal and sometimes even physical ways. He just didn’t seem aware as to how much his words had been wearing Sam down until it was almost too late. They’ve made a great first step towards understanding one another better, so I fervently hope that this storyline continues next season. No sweeping it under the rug and avoiding it because it’s chic-flickish either boys. Talk!
[quote]nappi815, I think that in 8×07 Dean mentioned it. The rest is your opinion and I respect it.[/quote]
paloma, i just watched a little slice of kevin. blood brothers was eppy 5. sam had no knowledge of any portal. but you are correct. dean was talking to cas with sam in the same room in eppy 7, a little slice of kevin. dean told cas that he had to scrape bleed claw fight struggle to reach the portal. sam knew there was a portal dean went through in eppy 7. sam had no idea where that portal was. and definitely had no idea how dean got benny out. in taxi driver sam was in a panic when he informed bobby that they were stuck there when ajay didn’t show. dean sent benny because dean knew sam had no idea of the location of the portal. purgatory is a very big place. even if sam and bobby had begun to randomly search for a portal, they most likely would never have found it. dean never told sam where it was, sam just knew dean left through one.
please don’t get me wrong but i’m a little confused at what you were trying to get at when you spoke of the portal in the first place. 😮 😉
[quote]nappi815 you are on fire girl! I have loved all of your posts on this thread; great insight and detail. I agree and would have attempted to say something similar, but you have done it better than I ever could.
I too hope for some clarity in season 9 about Sam’s missing months and more detail about where his head was at. There was quite a nice dialogue unfolding on the Bitterness Thread about the hows and whys of Sam not looking for Dean, with many great and well considered analysis as to how in or out of character Sam’s actions (or non-actions) were when Dean vanished. For me, what he ended up doing or not doing is actually rather immaterial at this point. I just want more info on the WHY. “My world imploded” and “I ran” is all Sam has said about the matter. 5 words is not enough for me to fully understand why Sam would not look. If you want me, as a fan to buy into his words then I need more insight into his emotions and his actions.
If you are correct (and it is my opinion that you are) then it was easier for Sam to let Dean think it was “because of a girl” rather than admit that he felt had failed Dean yet again. I think Sam even convinced himself it was about Amelia until the end of the season when he finally faced how much of a failure to Dean he felt he had been. And clearly Dean was totally shocked by Sam’s revelation. I don’t think that Dean had been thinking along those lines at all. Dean gets angry and vents his frustrations in verbal and sometimes even physical ways. He just didn’t seem aware as to how much his words had been wearing Sam down until it was almost too late. They’ve made a great first step towards understanding one another better, so I fervently hope that this storyline continues next season. No sweeping it under the rug and avoiding it because it’s chic-flickish either boys. Talk![/quote]
thanks e. i must admit that i’m off this week from work and i’ve had way too much time on my hands if you haven’t already taken notice. i watch the show then i get these thoughts and i have noone to talk to about it. most of the time i use the forum as a sounding board simply to release all this bottled up stuff…dean should so visit a forum. 😛
i thank you again for your compliment. i know i am often longwinded. i would like to say that i am in agreement with you. i also think dean was genuinely shocked by sam’s revelation. i also agree that dean has a tendency to say things without thinking them through. i also think he tends to transfer his own feelings of lack of self worth onto sam. if dean doesn’t think much of him, why would sam. i really believe that dean never considered that sam would hold onto the hurtful words dean has said to him because dean doesn’t think sam values him. it may hurt at the moment, but sam will just roll it off. guess sam doesn’t just roll it off. looks like sam holds onto pain the way dean holds onto grudges. time for both boys to start lettin go. 😉
i too think it’s important to see sam’s missing months. i think it’s important for dean and for the fandom. i think it’s also important in the completion of that particular story. now by all the clues given by show and i’ll just throw out a few:
carver made it clear sam thought dean and everyone was dead. sam stated he had no one and no road map.
sam hitting riot. clear sign sam was not doing well.
sam freaking out in the car when dean went off on his own in blood brother. sam usually doesn’t freak out under those conditions. he worries, but doesnt get as freaked.
adam glass twice in sc indicated that sam was not good. garth flat out told dean when dean ranted about sam leaving him in purgatory for a girl, ” i don’t know, i wasn’t there, but something terrible must have happened.
this was the eppy sam told amelia that he lost his brother and his world fell apart. he said he imploded and ran away.
meg questioned sam’s state of mind
bobby flat out told sam that something must’ve happened while he’s been gone because both of them were off the rails.
all these clues prove to me that something was wrong with sam. i have no doubt of that. but i, like you, would like show to acknowledge it. i just think it’s something dean needs to know and it would make for great angst and drama. 😆
i too hope that s9 continues with the openess that’s been started in s8. i mean i kind of hope sam being as sick as he is might have dean open up a bit…you think that’s too much to hope for? 😆 hell i have enough hope for all of us. 😉
[quote]’m not calling Sam’s names because if Dean did the exact same thing and sending someone to watch a monster because of his issues with a completely someone else, I’d call him out on it too. I’d call anyone out for that[/quote]
You mean as opposed to telling Sam that “yeah I trust you on Amy, Sam. I’ll let it go” and then going out and murdering her? Dean didn’t send someone to WATCH Amy he flat out killed her while telling Sam he wouldn’t and allowing Sam to believe he hadn’t.
I really hope that Sam isn’t cured by Bobby. I love Bobby, but I don’t want him to cure Sam. That said, having seen Jared play Meg in BUABS, I’m sure he can play Bobby possessing him.
1) [b] Dean is keeping the secret. AGAIN..!! :[/b] For me it depends on how it is handled. If FOR ONCE they actually focus on how it effects Sam as opposed to how BAD DEAN FEELS, I will be happy. But history says it won’t. Sam finds out his father put a hit out on him, Dean tells Sam how BAD Dean has felt about knowing it and NO Sam is NOT ALLOWED to even try to find out why because Dean can’t handle it. Dean kills Amy, it is all about how Dean (who made Sam pay most of season one for DARING to go to college and all of season 5 for trusting Ruby) is so upset that Sam hasn’t forgiven him after ONE WHOLE WEEK, “stop being a bitch, Sam”.
2) [b] Bobby is returning[/b] I really don’t want him possessing Sam, but I don’t mind him coming back. I always thought that killing him was a mistake. They should have had him in a coma, to be used at a later date.
3) [b]No story arc for Dean[/b] Like you this is something that I didn’t see. I always thought Dean had story arcs. That said, enough people are angry about it that I hope Dean gets to be the savior of the world. Now sadly, none of the people who complain about Dean not having a story arc, want Dean to lose the POV and suddenly do unsympathetic things with no explanation, so if/when it happens I’m prepared for Sam to stand in the corner, off screen, twiddling his thumbs while Dean and Cas talk about how Dean’s role of savior effects them emotionally while Cas reminds Sam that Sam is an abomination and Dean nods.
4) [b]Sam needs saving[/b]. I have no problem with Sam needing saving from the effects of the trials, but that is my limit. If Dean did something that makes Sam “evil” or “dangerous” I don’t want it. I’m afraid it will turn into Dean can then save the world from Sam the monster he created while people cheer Dean on and root for Sam to die.
5) [b]Brother’s bond has changed[/b] I don’t think it has, that much. Sam was pulling away early in season 8, but it went back to normal near the end.
6) [b]Jeremy Craver’s lack of understanding the show[/b] I didn’t have much trouble with SG’s storylines. I really LIKED season six, with some quibbles. Season seven got derailed, but I didn’t hate it. I’m hoping JC was planning a multi-year arc that will actually explore things like Sam not looking and Sam and Dean having been to the Grand Canyon, but I’m not really expecting it. I’m taking season 8 as bit of reset, some of which I didn’t like and going from there.
7) [b]The purgatory storyline[/b] I pretty much agree with you here. I think Purgatory was a way to reset Dean’s character. I think that worked. I was not a Benny fan and I, personally, have no need to revisit it.
8) [b] Comic relief Cas and immature Kevin[/b] I HATE comic relief Cas. Every other angel who came to earth adjusted quite well. Even Uriel seemed to get humans. Cas being less informed about human behavior (and yes eating and elimination included) made him seem special and in the short bus way, not the good way. I hope they do more with Cas than comic relief.
I like Kevin and I didn’t think he was immature. I thought Sam and Dean were IDIOTS to not bring him to the MOL Bunker, but Kevin made sense. I do hope Mama Tran is alive. We don’t need more dead women.
I cringed a little when I heard about “the secret” to cure Sam. I’m sure Dean will get flack for saving Sam in the wrong way. I hope the cure doesn’t involve demon blood, angel blood, or someone possessing Sam. I really hope we get normal, human Sam this season. That would be something new. Interesting speculation about Sam curing demons causing him to finish trials. I hadn’t thought of that. I hope Castiel is more then comic relief. I don’t like Mrs. Tran but JC does so I guess she will be back and I hope Garth comes back because I do like him. I hated Bobby dying but he did and I would like him to stop popping up. I hope Dean isn’t the “guilty cheerleader” this season or Sam’s caregiver.
Nappi815, not problem, if I misinterpreat you, you could said me. In one of your comments you said: ” sam may have issues but it doesn’t take away from the fact that dean is still hiding something about benny. he won’t say how they got out. sam knows nothing & dean is still keeping sam in the dark. why?” If he knows about Benny and he knows about the portal, I don’t really know what more he had to tell. We don’t know how big is purgatory, sincerely I don’t see how Dean could say Sam where the portal is.
Wow… stopped by the speculation thread to see what people were speculating about for S9 but turns out this is a continuation of some sort of bitterness thread. The same old “Dean never gets a story, and by the way his brother Sam is an a-hole” complaints, then the Sam fans responding in kind. And so it goes, on and on. Folks – it’s the same people making the same arguments back and forth and you’re not going to convince each other their opinion is wrong. Kind of like trying to herd cats. As a U.S. Senator once said, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts 🙂
That being said, I’m here for some good old fashion speculating. I agree with many of Alice’s counter arguments/responses to common complaints. However, wouldn’t go so far as to define the brother’s relationship as mature. Maybe “maturing” but still very much a work in progress. As far as Kevin goes, keep in mind that he’s 18 years old (based upon him being 16 when introduced as prophet in S7 and the 1 year time lapse between S7/S8). Given what he’s been through over the past 2 years, I’m thinking he’s coping pretty well. In S7, he came across as shrill and annoying but has kind of grown on me in S8.
As far as Castiel goes, he’s been around the guys for 4-5 years now so the fish out of water act is getting old and stale. Other angels have learned how to socially interact; here’s hoping for some real character development in S9, otherwise his story arc is becoming a giant waste of time. There is a tremendous amount of potential here IMO.
Will be interesting to see what they do with Crowley; IMO, and based upon what’s been said at Comic Con, Crowley did start to change, and wasn’t faking it like some people thought, so it’ll be fun to see where they go with this and how it changes his character.
For the speculating part, we know that Sam is changing, the question is in to what. I can’t see them going the demon/Lucifer/demon blood route; if that’s what it takes to “fix” Sam, Dean wouldn’t agree to it – he’d rather see his brother die then turn in to a monster. I was hoping we’d get to see “human Sam” this year but that doesn’t sound like the way they’re going. Perhaps his psychic/other powers from earlier seasons were not the result of Azaziel bleeding in his mouth but were innate, and Azaziel and his gang twisted/manipulated them for their own purpose? Maybe Dean finding a “fix” for Sam involves delaying the changes he’s going through (i.e. if/when he dies, the changes are complete) and maybe these changes are still an end result of undertaking the trials; I do think the character Death plays in Sam’s fix somehow, just not sure how (maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part – always enjoyed Dean and his interactions with Death). Big picture stuff – always thought the first 8 seasons have been part of God’s ongoing trial for Sam and Dean. I’m okay with Dean keeping secrets as long as it isn’t done in a contrived manner, as it was with the Amy thing in S7.
As far as Bobby goes, Jeremy Carver needs to be careful with how they use him; otherwise it cheapens/lessens his death (one of the stronger episodes of S7) and starts to come across as pandering to the fans who want to bring back every popular character that has died on the show. I liked Bobby but enough is enough. That being said, very curious how JC integrates this in to the story – sounds like Bobby’s back early so it might play in to Sam’s “fix”.
hey paloma,
the secret i’m referring to, the reason i totally believe that dean lied to sam about benny in the first place is how benny got out. it’s not about the portal. it’s about the fact that benny used dean from the start so that dean would carry him out inside of his body.
dean has spent years and is still holding a grudge regarding sam trusting ruby and drinking demon blood. then dean turns around and puts his trust in a vampire who flat out told dean that he would be his friend for a price. he needed him to carry him out as it was a human portal. of course dean will do it. he wants out of purgatory. i’m not blaming dean for that at all. he had to do what it took to get out.
the irony is that sam had his reasons for doing what he did as well. sam thought he was preparing to kill lilith & stop the apocalypse. it doesn’t matter that lilith was the final seal. that’s not the point. the point is sam has been punished by dean over & over again for the mistake. for trusting in a monster for what he believed to be the greater good. now dean puts his trust in a monster for his greater good.
dean kept what he had to do to get out from sam. hell he kept benny from sam. why? who would get it more than sam? after all dean did something very similar to what sam had done & they both believed it to be for the right reason. there’s a hypocrisy here.
dean hid the fact of how he got benny out and how it all came to be. all sam knows is that benny is why he’s topside. sam doesn’t know that benny in essence blackmailed dean into setting him free. sam also didn’t know that benny got out by hitching a ride inside him & not simply walking thru the portal with dean.
that being the case, so what? sam would have understood why dean did what he did. sam is the most forgiving of all the characters on this show. all dean had to do was not lie to him, but dean kept benny a secret from the start. he set loose a vampire with the hopes that he wouldn’t kill anyone while topside.
there’s another hypocrisy as well as to why he kept it from sam. people may not want to hear it again, but there is amy pond. sam confronted dean about it too. sam brought up amy in sc. and then dean tells sam “well people change”. do you see the hypocrisy there? don’t you think sam sees it as well? it’s ok that benny, who’s been killing nonstop in purgatory for the last 50 years, gets to roam around topside simply because he’s dean’s friend & they formed a foxhole friendship, but amy, who fed off corpses, lived a peaceful life & had a child gets a knife in her gut for the possibility that her son may get sick and she kills someone. but benny who’s been killing in purgatory for the last 50 yrs nonstop & was a vampire for the last 100 yrs before that gets to live off the fat of the land. it doesn’t matter that benny drinks blood from a bag. that’s not what i’m getting at. i’m not saying that benny will necessarily drink someone. i’m saying that someone who has been killing for over 150 years just won’t be able to stop. it’s all he knows. it’s what he is. taking benny out of purgatory won’t change that. i also don’t think it matters that with dean it was a year of friendship & with sam it was a childhood crush. that’s not the point. the point is that when it comes to dean winchester, the way he percieves things is the right way & the way sam percieves things is the wrong way. this all goes back to carver & his concept of perception. dean sees benny as the exception because benny is his friend, even though he doesn’t fully trust benny. that’s another reason dean hid benny. he doesn’t fully trust benny & dean isn’t sure he did the right thing. so dean lies to sam.
the lies are what triggers sam’s mistrust in benny from the start. dean’s rant in sc. sam’s hurt & jealousy, sure it’s there now. but sam’s a hunter & his mistrust in benny started the moment he shook his hand and found out he was a vampire. you can see that in his face as he was reaching for his knife. dean lying about benny in the first place, also triggered sam’s mistrust. but more than that. dean lying about benny because of his own distrust in benny and his decision to free benny has led sam to believe that dean didn’t tell sam because he didn’t trust in him. this is where it starts. this is when sam starts believing dean puts a vampire before him. add to that the text in citizen fang then you have a sam who gets confirmation that dean loves benny more than he loves him. if we look at it in mathematical terms: sc + citizen fang=sacrifice 😆
sam has failed dean to many times and lost him to a vampire. that is why sam needed to do something in a big way to try to yet again atone to dean for his failing. that’s why he took the trials on himself.
that’s the way i see it anyway. look i’m not trying to change anyone’s mind, just voicing an opinion that you can either say hey, she has a point or you can dismiss it. it’s all about perception after all right?
[hey njspnfan, haven’t seen ya. thought you were taking a summer vacation. yes i agree that it did kind of turn into a discussion of sorts rather than speculation. i’m totally guilty in participating. i guess because in the summer, you rewatch, you have extra time and you have all this stuff bottled up inside that you just want to talk to someone else about and share thoughts with. most times i find i do that in the forum that’s open at the time. we don’t get scolded for it, so i figure it’s ok. we would be told to stop otherwise.
but you are right this was meant for speculating on s9 and we’ve kind of been speculating on s8. but s8 and s9 tie into ea. other especially given that the premiere is part 2 of the finale. so in essence, speculating on s8 is really speculating on s9 because the first eppy of s9 is just a continuation of the the finale and not really entirely new. :-* 😆 did i talk my way out that?
i agree with you on the not being the blood thing. i also stated somewhere at some point the same idea. that sam’s original psychic abilities were not from a demon. he’s always had them. the db just prepped sam to be luci’s vessel & convinced him that it gave him strength. yes it strengthened his body, but i never really believed it strengthened his powers. i think ruby just told sam the db would do that. ruby told sam he never needed the feather to fly. sam seems to think db gives him his abilities but i don’t think that’s the case. i think he, like missouri is just gifted. i think yellow eyes targeted the gifted children who were given up through deals. i’ve alway leaned towards yellow eyes knowing in advance the children who would be gifted. so what if whatever cures sam, awakens his innate abilities, or strengthens them, much like he believed the db did. he would still be human in this case. but he might be able to do things he couldn’t do before. he might be able to spot angels.
sometimes i also lean towards sam’s change maybe not being a certain power but more along the lines of what he knows. sam has always been book smart. i mean he is a walking encyclopedia of weirdness. he can pull a fact out of his butt. i wonder if the change in him would be more along the lines of what he knows.
basically i have no clue…but i’m very excited to find out.
nice to see you again.
Thanks Nappi815 (#99) for that. I think I may have had a small stroke reading it, but thanks anyway! Plus the visual of Sam pulling facts out of his butt…well… 😆
#99 Hey Nappi815 – yes, have been laying low, a little under the weather this summer but very much on the mend and getting back to normal. Was reading through a lot of your responses and agree, particularly about Dean’s level of hypocrisy over the his treatment of Benny and keeping secrets from Sam. Dean wasn’t all too happy when the shoe was on the other foot and Sam was keeping a lot of secrets.
Stumbled across the S9 bitterness thread the other day. I read some of the comments and wonder why, if people find the show/show’s direction so horrible and makes it such a miserable experience, why bother watching?
glad you are feeling better. 🙂 yeah i think i visited the bitterness thread at some point when i was pmsing….big mistake. never enter a thread when your hormonal and it has the word bitterness in the title. 😆
i usually stick to threads with words like happiness or let’s speculate. of course we all go off course anyway, but there’s a lot less hostility. i myself try to post my feeling without trying to cause other people to freak out on me. both boys are flawed and i love them both. but sometimes the topic at hand might be about something specific and you tend to focus on that thing for the moment. anyway, i know my posts are longwinded and often detailed, but that’s only because i find myself trying to explain where i think the boys might be coming from whether i agree with them or not.
i can only imagine that when some if not most see my name their first reaction is oh no… 😆 but then even when that’s the case some do actually take the time to read anyway and i appreciate their time and their input, even if our opinions differ. i see the boards as a way of talking to everyone and anyone who will listen. it’s nice, especially given that at times there’s stuff i’d like to talk to someone about and nobody else watches this show but me. fools 😉
as for s9. i’m hoping to see the samulet again. i really hope that sam or someone informs dean about sam’s missing months. that’s the big stuff i’d like to see that i feel will give closure to s9.
there’s other stuff though..like who was watching sam. who resurrected don. and who “they” were that told benny the exact time and place to find the portal. because whoever “they’ are, they gave that info to benny at the same time sam left for the cabin. funny how once sam realized that it was time to stop running from his real life and he was ready to go back to it…that’s when dean gets out of purgatory. some coincidence right?
as you may know i do have a wish list of returning faces: ghostfacers, garth, trickster, ash being among them.
as for crowley, i think he’ll still be bad, but not bad to the extreme. i think crowley will suffer at times from moments of humanity. i think it’ll piss him off, but i think he won’t be able to help it. just a guess there.
it’ll be interesting to see who will play abaddon. i did think the actress who played her should’ve stuck around. she was good.
have no clue as to how dean will fix sam. but so not worried about dean getting flack for it. sam gets upset for like two seconds and then moves on to deal with the issue. that’s exactly what he did when he found out john told dean he might have to kill him.
death would be a cool go to guy for sam’s cure. i like his character. he did the wall…but he said one wall per customer. maybe fallen angels would be a reason death chimes in to help. it’s possible.
i don’t mind bobby coming back or not really. so far we only know he’s back in the premiere so it does make me wonder if bobby knows a way for dean to heal sam. it might be something shady or not the best idea , but if it saves sam, dean would do it.
then again bobby could be on for a different reason.
cas being normal seems to me to be a temporary situation. i’m ok with it. and i don’t mind a good laugh from cas every once in a while. most of the time the jokes are at his expense and not so much in what he says. i do wonder if he’ll be a help or a hindrance for the boys. he’s not much for hunting, but he can be useful to the boys in the mol bunker. sort of a liason to info while sam is on the job
they mentioned a new bad which has me curious. i really wonder if metatron will be back as well. i still think he’s the one who put riot in front of sam’s car and brought back dear dead don. i think metatron read all of chuck’s books and saved both sam and dean because of the wonderful. exciting, bonechilling , heroic story that is known as the winchester gospel. just a theory that keeps gnawing at me.
Nappi815 – I’m with you, wish they would have kept the actress that played Adaddon – she was great. Taking a wait and see approach with Bobby’s return in S9; just hoping they do right by his character. I don’t mind them bringing people back but always felt that they would kill off other characters because they can’t kill off Sam or Dean (at least not for long). As long as they do it in a manner that ties in nicely with the story, and aren’t pandering and don’t overdo it, I’m okay with it.
I also enjoy reading other opinions and have rewatched some episodes and gained a different perspective on what happened in that episode. It’s just the bitterness threads get depressing as it seems to rehash the same issues over and over again.
Really like your Metatron theory, especially given what he said in The Great Escapist about stories and being gods of tiny intricate universes. I’d take it a step further and say that God might have his hands in this as well; they established that God had “left the building” back in S4/S5 – I’m thinking he’s keeping an eye on things and is also fascinated by the story of the Winchesters as well.
[quote]Nappi815 – I’m with you, wish they would have kept the actress that played Adaddon – she was great. Taking a wait and see approach with Bobby’s return in S9; just hoping they do right by his character. I don’t mind them bringing people back but always felt that they would kill off other characters because they can’t kill off Sam or Dean (at least not for long). As long as they do it in a manner that ties in nicely with the story, and aren’t pandering and don’t overdo it, I’m okay with it.
I also enjoy reading other opinions and have rewatched some episodes and gained a different perspective on what happened in that episode. It’s just the bitterness threads get depressing as it seems to rehash the same issues over and over again.
Really like your Metatron theory, especially given what he said in The Great Escapist about stories and being gods of tiny intricate universes. I’d take it a step further and say that God might have his hands in this as well; they established that God had “left the building” back in S4/S5 – I’m thinking he’s keeping an eye on things and is also fascinated by the story of the Winchesters as well.[/quote]
i have to agree with you as well on God having a hand in helping the winchesters. it’s funny but i have this theory that God did not leave but he’s actually here on earth hiding in goofy, slightly off people. i totally believe he was hiding in chuck. i also kind of think he’s hiding in garth. i mean garth. he’s lucky to even be alive. he’s actually quite knowledgable and very insightful when it comes to the boys. i just watched sc and i couldn’t help but wonder about garth. he totally tried to help the boys. he told sam they were talking but not listening. he told dean that they only had ea. other and it was a good thing. he told dean in the rant, “i don’t know, i wasn’t there, but something must have been seriously wrong” when dean ranted to sam about leaving him in purgatory for a girl…i imagine God’s advice more subtle but there. then garth picks up the coin and tells dean not to worry. he has no hangups. he talks to his yogi. then we don’t see garth anymore in s8. he was there to help the boys, then poof..gone. kinda like chuck. i’m not saying garth is definitely God, but…i do wonder. 😆
Nappi815, I only want your point of view really 🙂
I agree with you in Amy’s kill, although it seems like Dean won in the number of corpses.
I have a problem with Sam attitude season 8. I’m hope that in season 9 we will see something before Amelia or between he left Amelia and found Dean.
😀 Nappi, I think most of, if not all of us enjoy your posts!
I like the fact that you think about the show so much and come here to share. You have often made many of us feel better about things. Good work and keep it up!
#100-Thisoldbag. Funny!!!
Thanks leah. i really appreciate that. it’s always a pleasure sharing with everyone here. 🙂 i know it’s hard to stay on topic because we all have so much to say. i just wish they would create a general topic of discussion where we could just talk about anything and everything…the “let’s discuss what’s on your mind regarding our boys thread”…that way we can discuss whatever it is we feel like discussing and we don’t have to worry about going off topic…especially for those who specifically wish to stay on topic. i know i’m an on topic violator… :-* 😆
[quote]
4) [b]Sam needs saving[/b]. I have no problem with Sam needing saving from the effects of the trials, but that is my limit. If Dean did something that makes Sam “evil” or “dangerous” I don’t want it. I’m afraid it will turn into Dean can then save the world from Sam the monster he created while people cheer Dean on and root for Sam to die.[/quote]
I have to admit on past evidence (and some current evidence as well) I am somewhat afraid of this happening too.
Eilf and Percysowner, That will never happen! There are too many people who love Sam. The show would never go there. Why would they? They might as well turn off the cameras and wrap the series. No one in their right mind would be behind that save for some rabid Sam haters.
Eilf and percysowner, seriously? Because Dean doesn’t made Sam evil or dangerous, he wasn’t responsability of Sam’s actions. And sorry but, with more or less reason, nobody has supported Dean in anything.
[quote]Eilf and percysowner, seriously? Because Dean doesn’t made Sam evil or dangerous, he wasn’t responsability of Sam’s actions. And sorry but, with more or less reason, nobody has supported Dean in anything.[/quote]
Paloma it is a speculation, not discussing the past. I didn’t say it WOULD happen, I am just a little afraid that it might. It would be great if for a season both the principle heroes on the show (and there are TWO of them) could work together and actually succeed in something.
[quote][quote]
4) Sam needs saving. I have no problem with Sam needing saving from the effects of the trials, but that is my limit. If Dean did something that makes Sam “evil” or “dangerous” I don’t want it. I’m afraid it will turn into Dean can then save the world from Sam the monster he created while people cheer Dean on and root for Sam to die.[/quote]
I have to admit on past evidence (and some current evidence as well) I am somewhat afraid of this happening too.[/quote]
Yikes!!! Gosh, they wouldn’t do that would they? I guess that I don’t really think that the show would go in this direction, but you don’t think Carver could be picking up the rejected season 3 original story line that had Sam going dark side to save Dean from hell do you? Oy… please no, just no.
And about the curing demons thing; it seems like this is going to become Sam’s new mission; but someone’s soul doesn’t stay “purified by confession” indefinitely does it? I mean part of the whole thing was to feed the demon blood that’s been purified by confession. That’s got to wear off after a while don’t you think? And if we are talking about real confession here… a la the catholic church, then how could Sam’s soul and blood have been purified to begin with? There wasn’t a priest present and that’s a pretty key element to be missing in a confession situation. There was no one to offer Sam absolution, or make him do penance, two key elements to the whole purified blood scenario. I am beginning to wonder if Crowley is actually half cured at all; it certainly would be in his best interest to lie and pretend that he is to gain the boy’s trust and then hit them hard when they least expect it. Sorry a bit rambly and off topic.
[quote]Eilf and Percysowner, That will never happen! There are too many people who love Sam. The show would never go there. Why would they? They might as well turn off the cameras and wrap the series. No one in their right mind would be behind that save for some rabid Sam haters.[/quote]
Except that there are many fans who proclaim that the ending of season five was perfect and were perfectly happy with Sam being tortured for ALL ETERNITY by Lucifer and Michael. Plus Kripke was pretty clear that before the writers strike Sam was supposed to use his powers to save Dean and go darkside an Dean was then going to have to hunt Sam downand kill him. Carver worked under that idea.
[quote] And sorry but, with more or less reason, nobody has supported Dean in anything.[/quote]
I forgot, John told Sam that Dean was so evil that he had to die, and only Sam was strong enough to do it oh that’s not right. Bobby told Sam he liked him best, oh that didn’t happen either. Cas fell solely and completely because of he believed in Sam, nope that didn’t happen either. Sam went to say yes to Lucifer because he thought Dean was SO WEAK that he would inevitably say yes to Michael, whoops that didn’t happen either. Bobby didn’t tell Dean that he never thought Sam cared about people until he he saw him saving them at Pestilence’s factory, oh he did, didn’t he. Heck when they were in heaven Dean allowed Sam all the time in the world to remember the times Sam was happy, oh no that was Sam encouraging Dean to spend time with Mary, time that DID NOT include Sam. Dean pitched a FIT because Sam’s memories did not include Dean.
People have claimed that Benny was a true friend because he helped Dean leave Purgatory and that he is a true and innocent friend who came to Dean’s side when he needed him and according to them (and I think you have shared the opinion, if I misremember I apologize) he died in order to help DEAN, not Sam. Dean talks to Charlie, who tells him he’s a good guy and Garth, who reassures him. Dean has TONS of people supporting him, believing in him and validating him. Sam got Ruby, a demon who was manipulating him, Amy, who Dean flat out killed, Jess and Sarah who are murdered violently in front of his eyes and Amelia, who doesn’t know enough about Sam (and yes this is Sam’s fault, I totally admit) who is gone and pretty well forgotten.
ETA:
[quote]And about the curing demons thing; it seems like this is going to become Sam’s new mission; but someone’s soul doesn’t stay “purified by confession” indefinitely does it? I mean part of the whole thing was to feed the demon blood that’s been purified by confession. That’s got to wear off after a while don’t you think? And if we are talking about real confession here… a la the catholic church, then how could Sam’s soul and blood have been purified to begin with? There wasn’t a priest present and that’s a pretty key element to be missing in a confession situation. There was no one to offer Sam absolution, or make him do penance, two key elements to the whole purified blood scenario. I am beginning to wonder if Crowley is actually half cured at all; it certainly would be in his best interest to lie and pretend that he is to gain the boy’s trust and then hit them hard when they least expect it. Sorry a bit rambly and off topic.[/quote]
Well since the only things that are considered to be sins for Sam are when he hurts Dean, all he has to do is obey every command of Dean’s and not get mad when he finds out Dean is hiding things from him and if he hides the fact that he didn’t brush his teeth from Dean accept Dean’s righteous wrath, the Sam should be golden.
[quote][quote][quote]
4) Sam needs saving. I have no problem with Sam needing saving from the effects of the trials, but that is my limit. If Dean did something that makes Sam “evil” or “dangerous” I don’t want it. I’m afraid it will turn into Dean can then save the world from Sam the monster he created while people cheer Dean on and root for Sam to die.[/quote]
I have to admit on past evidence (and some current evidence as well) I am somewhat afraid of this happening too.[/quote]
Yikes!!! Gosh, they wouldn’t do that would they? I guess that I don’t really think that the show would go in this direction, but you don’t think Carver could be picking up the rejected season 3 original story line that had Sam going dark side to save Dean from hell do you? Oy… please no, just no.
And about the curing demons thing; it seems like this is going to become Sam’s new mission; but someone’s soul doesn’t stay “purified by confession” indefinitely does it? I mean part of the whole thing was to feed the demon blood that’s been purified by confession. That’s got to wear off after a while don’t you think? And if we are talking about real confession here… a la the catholic church, then how could Sam’s soul and blood have been purified to begin with? There wasn’t a priest present and that’s a pretty key element to be missing in a confession situation. There was no one to offer Sam absolution, or make him do penance, two key elements to the whole purified blood scenario. I am beginning to wonder if Crowley is actually half cured at all; it certainly would be in his best interest to lie and pretend that he is to gain the boy’s trust and then hit them hard when they least expect it. Sorry a bit rambly and off topic.[/quote]
E, Leah is probably right. By this stage the PTB must understand that Sam doesn’t get as much leeway for his misdemeanors (large and small) as other characters do so, no if they really want the show to keep going they would be better off not making Sam ‘evil’ or even slightly grey for a bit.
So no I don’t think that they will really chose this angle (I really hope not anyway). They might reintroduce the demon blood to Sam,which would be absolutely heartbreaking when you consider what Sam said in the Great Escapist and Sacrifice. If that does happen I hope the fandom would allow Sam leeway to be angry at Dean (assuming it would be Dean’s decision) because it would be an absolutely huge betrayal of Sam, who might very well consider that he would have been better off dying completing the trials (or at least being allowed to make his own decision on it) if it meant purity from the demon blood.
I really do consider this to be the worst possible scenario though, since it would be a huge wedge between the brothers and everyone involved in making the show seems to think that they have done enough of that (yay) – but this IS a speculation thread – so I REALLY truly hope that isn’t where this is going. Also the demon blood thing has been done to death. I really would like them to have a fresh angle!
The confession thing: the guys aren’t Catholics (it is said in an episode at some point) and I was just looking at different religions and if they were Protestants then a personal prayer is considered sufficient though it is considered better to have someone to tell, so that would work. (if God is AWOL then it shouldn’t work with or without a priest, but anyway …) And yes I think it would only work up until the next time the person sinned. To be honest the whole absolution from sin thing is really complicated in this scenario because I am pretty sure that the sort of assault that goes on during the ritual [i]could[/i] be considered sinning. Also setting people (or demons) on fire would come under that category (probably 😕 ). And I am willing to bet there was some swearing by Sam after he picked himself up having been thrown out of a window … and some vengeful thoughts …all-in-all staying sin-free is difficult.
EDIT: I really can’t deny how many times I used the word ‘really’ in this post ….
Having Dean be responsible for having Sam go evil and then having him hunt down and kill Sam while fan’s cheered is an absolutely sickening scenario and should not be given any credence whatsoever IMO. This has nothing to do with the issues about Sam’s character for me (and I agree there are some). To consider that the PTB would sign off on having Dean do something to change Sam into something monstrous and then not spend the whole season trying to undo what he did, but instead hunt down and kill his brother while fans cheered him on is an unfathomable and offensive idea to me.
guys, you really have to try to relax. i know it’s summer and there’s alot of idle minds out there with all sorts of thoughts swimming in our heads. but i think that some of you are starting to let your fear get the best of you.
i have been on this site, since i’m on vacation, most every day. i have been checking on another site as well and there have been no new spoilers out there other than the guy from bsg playing ezekiel in one of the eps.
so far everything we know now is what we heard from the boys at comic con. maybe it might be a good idea to watch again. sometimes, what i think happens is we watch something, but even though we all watch the same thing, we all don’t hear the same thing. or we interpret things differently. it’s almost like the game of telephone. you hear something, it gets repeated and then when you get to the last person what they say is not what was said in the first place.
from what i remember from jared’s interview was a very excited kid in a candy store. he said dean was going to keep a secret as to how he was healed. he said sam would find out. he was excited about the change that would come. he said he wished they had talked about it so he had to mind his words. but he indicated that it was something that he was excited for. i believe and you can rewatch and check me out, but he seemed to indicate that the change in sam was something new. he also said that it was something we’d all like and if we didn’t it wasn’t because it wasn’t cool, but because he didn’t do it justice.
so from that interview alone, it seems to me that show is going to do something they’ve not done yet. they’ve done demon blood. they’ve done the dark thing. hell sam even got to be lucifer. i really don’t think it’s that. besides, jared seemed quite stoked and from his interview. he certainly gave me the impression that it was because he was getting to do something they haven’t done it yet. i believe he might have even said something to that effect, but again, you might want to rewatch to double check me. he’s done dark sam. he’s done dark sam awesomely and we know he has done it justice. so i don’t think evil/dark is the route they are going. besides, leah is right. the ptb aren’t going to go down the monstrous route. besides that’s not new. been done before.
seems to me that jared’s excitement is due to the fact that what he’s going to get to do, he hasn’t done yet.
now i don’t know if this eases your mind or not, i mean who the hell am i anyway….but i can tell you that this particular fangirl isn’t worried in the least that show would ever go down that route again. the one thing jeremy carver has done in s8 is go the nontraditional route.based on the excitement of both the boys this year, it seems to me that show is travelling down a new path, and not the same old same old from the past seasons.
my unsolicited advice…..try not to take a person’s fear and worry and make it yours too. fear is as contagious as the common cold. this is the speculation thread. we, including myself, have no idea what show is going to do. and no matter how much we try to figure it out, we most likely won’t. speculating should be fun. try to have fun. don’t let yourself go crazy over your or someone elses’ imagination.
the one thing that’s not speculation on my part, my faith in this show. 😉
In reference to my own post of #115, I would like to offer my apologies. I went a little “Bitterness Thread” there and came off very harsh. I really, really don’t like that scenario but I mean no disrespect to any poster. This is a speculation thread and therefore any idea can be fair game even if it makes me cringe.
[b]nappi815 and leah [/b]- I’d just like to say thanks to you both for calming my worries. I am truly excited for S9 and I’ve liked most of the spoilers we’ve had but, even so, since Comic Con I’ve had the niggling fear in the back of my mind that next season Carver is going to pick up on the Boy King/Sam going darkside storyline from S3. I’m always hopeless at speculation and all I’ve been able to come up with is that Sam is cured by Dean giving him demon blood. I just keep thinking that as Sam seems cured by the time they get back to the bunker what else do they have at hand to cure him so fast? 😕
I’m sorry to be adding my worry to the pile here but I was just relieved to see that others share this worry. I thought I was the only one fretting about them possibly picking up on the discarded S3 plotlines.
But, as I said,[b] nappi[/b] and [b]leah’s[/b] posts have made me feel much more optimistic that the writers won’t go down this route. Oh, I SO hope that they don’t. Thanks so much to both of you. 🙂
[quote]I really do consider this to be the worst possible scenario though, since it would be a huge wedge between the brothers and everyone involved in making the show seems to think that they have done enough of that (yay) [/quote]
This made me feel MUCH better too, so thanks[b] E[/b]. After Sacrifice, I really don’t think that the writers would drive such a massive wedge between the boys. And it would be a horrendously, horribly massive wrench. 🙁 No, surely they wouldn’t do that.
As for S9, despite my above panic, I am really excited. One thing I am increasingly hopeful about is the return of the amulet. After Sacrifice and Dean (and us) getting to see how much of a disappointment Sam feels he is to his big brother…it made me start to think that this could lead to a return of the amulet. Watching it get dropped into that rubbish bin must have drastically amped up Sam’s feelings of being a disappointment to Dean. I have no idea how it could happen but I do wonder if somehow the amulet might make a return this year.
I’d also like to see something on those missing months after Dean disappeared, the ones between Dean disappearing and Sam hitting that dog. I want the boys to really talk about this.
Plus I want to see more of Garth, more of Jodie, more of Kevin. Excited to see Bobby back again and very curious if he might be somehow involved in the curing of Sam. Also excited to see what these ‘changes’ are for Sam…but then that starts me worrying all over again. :sigh: Summertime spoilers can be so stressful. Sometimes I wish I wasn’t such a spoiler junkie. 😆
leah-i just wanted to let you know how much i enjoy your posts as they are positive and rational. there is absolutely no need for you to apologize for your passion. 😉
gwen- thanks. i just think that everyone’s starting to get all needlessly panicked. i think it plays in part that we have so much waiting to do..we let our imaginations take over. i just wanted to try to put things in perspective for everyone so they recognize that they’re freaking out over speculation.
i thought this might help you. you may have seen it already, but if you haven’t there’s another interview on ksitetv.com with jared from comic con. the people from this interview asked a few different questions. jared was still very excited, but these are two point i took notice to. first jared responded to a question by saying that the show is able to reinvent itself and the fans are a big part of allowing that. reinvent. interesting word. to invent means to make up;originate, so reinvent means to make up again, originate again. another comment i took notice of and this is a quote and you can watch it to check me up. jared said ” he’s more excited what he gets to do as sam than ever before.” the way i interpret that sentence is jared is stoked that sam gets to do something he’s not done yet..it’s the than ever before that leads me to believe that it’s all new. jared has done evil before. he’s done possessed before. he’s done lucifer before. between the comment about getting to reinvent themselves and the comment more than ever before comment…i don’t know, but i believe jared is excited about doing something they’ve haven’t yet tried.
as for your concern abou t the db being brought up. the db has been a part of sam his whole life. bringing it up during the trials isn’t really suspicious especially considering his symptoms and the change he told dean he was going through. i honestly believe that had dean done the trials, his symptoms wouldn’t have been the same. i think the glowing arm stuff would be the same, but i think sam bleeding, i think that was strictly a symptom designed for him because as we learned in clip show, a person had to be pure and sam had db in him. the purification actually started in trial and error, it’s just that sam didn’t realize it yet. but as he got closer to the end of the trials, he finally understood what was happening. that scene as you said was also about insight into sam
that’s the kicker really and why everyone is starting to get all nervous. think about it, we are so used to not hearing sam’s pov that when we finally do, the joy and relief is there , but then the paranoia sets in.
when carver took over he reinvented the show. not to the extreme, but if you look back on the season, carver did take a different route. like the frost poem i think it was, carver took the road not taken. but in the end the destination was still over the rainbow imo.
had gamble stayed, i believe her plan was for sam to somehow rescue dean. carver decided on the human storyline for sam this year. now up until this point, i don’t know if you’ve noticed, but sam has been literally superman. he survived it all. the pit, being souless, his wall breaking, lucifer hellucinations, a near mental breakdown which lead to a physical one, everyone he’s ever loved dying..but still sam landed on his own two feet. sam was practically a robot he’s been so invincible. then carver did something, at the time seemed ooc and God awful, the worst thing ever, he had sam not rescue dean. hell worse than that, sam didn’t look. but sam explained it that he thought dean was dead & he was all alone. adam glass dropped hints in sc that something terrible must’ve happened, and sam telling amelia he lost his brother and his world fell apart. he said he imploded and ran away. meg questioned sam’s state of mind. bobby flat out told sam he & dean went off the rails. it was obvious even if you didn’t see it at the beginning, it was certainly made known throughout the season, that there was some wrong with sam. he broke. he wasn’t infallible after all. he lost & couldn’t deal with the one thing that helped him survive all the rest, his touchstone, his brother. oh, holy hell, sam is human after all. they stuck with the human story too, when they had sam purified. the purification was part of sam’s human story. i never took it as an omen of bad things to come. only good things to come.
i know sam is healed in the first eppy, but i don’t think in the first few minutes. i think the eppy might very well be about dean’s search and discovery for whatever it is that heals sam.
jared in the interview also talked of the mol bunker and how so many doors have been opened. there are so many stories to be told. you can watch, but the way he was talking, i had an itch that maybe dean finds the answer in the mol bunker. just my speculation.
i guess i’m not worried about a rehash of the past. seems to me that when carver took over he started creating new things and new takes on new things. this is the first time in a really long time that i’m not worried. what a great feeling. you should try it. it’s spectaculacular 😉 😆
I’ll leave Sam’s’ human story’ from last year well alone it was hit and miss for me and I am not sure we will get a continuum on that in season 9 .I am not sure what to expect next season like I said I do not know if we will get a ‘open’ or at least a slightly ajar Sam or the tortoise returns?.
Nappi815 is right, everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax. I just can’t see them going the evil Sam route again – been there/done that and they also mentioned this will be something new. If anyone is going to VanCon, buy Jared a few drinks and see if he’ll spill some state secrets 🙂
Besides, Dean has said on multiple occasions that he’d rather see his brother die human than turn in to a monster.
Whatever is happening to Sam was probably triggered by the trials – I think whatever is happening is innate and was always part of him and, for all intents and purposes, the entire 8 seasons has been a trial for Sam. There had been earlier discussion on this threat about Sam’s psychic/telekinetic abilities being innate and Azaziel and his gang corrupting/twisting them to their purpose. So, whatever is happening to Sam is probably a good thing and I think whatever Dean does to help Sam get better interferes with/slows this process. As far as the secret, maybe Dean is told that this is something Sam has to figure it out for himself and Dean cannot tell him?
Haven’t seen much speculation (only complaints) about what happens to Dean in S9. At the end of S8, Dean spoke about the knowledge they have gained as part of the trials. Given Dean’s clarity and focus brought on by his time in purgatory, the complete disarray that heaven and hell are in, the threat the angels poses, and his strong leadership qualities, I can see him leading/directing/providing guidance to other hunters in responding to all of the new threats in S9. By that, I don’t mean a Bobby/Garth role; more of a field general type role.
njspnfan-i am in total agreement with you. i too have speculated somewhere at some point that sam’s powers were indeed God-given. Lucifer told yellow eyes to find a special child. i always thought that yellow eyes specifically sought out gifted children & yes the db was meant to not only eventually prepare the child to be a vessel, but as you say corrupt the originally intended ability.
you also make a very valid point that i most whole heartedly agree with. the secret. everyone is so busy with the fact that dean is keeping a secret, we’ve all made assumptions that the secret is something he did. but what if you are right, which by the way is very possible. what if the secret is not something dean personally does, what if it’s something he just let’s happen.
i think as you said, sam’s change is in fact due to the trials and having God’s energy/light flow through sam. i don’t think purification is the only change in sam. what if the scenario is this..what if dean learns that sam’s sickness is in fact part of the process sam is meant to go through. what if dean is supposed to do nothing and let sam just be. the secret is dean knowing what sam is actually going through and the knowledge that sam will indeed go through changes.
hell, i think a scenario such as this one is more in the realm of possibility than rehashing old stories yet again. carver has taken the care to bring the boys to a level of maturity, understanding, and finally clarity to just say….just kidding…let’s go back to old issues and old stories so the fans can get bored and frustrated and not want to watch anymore…there’s just way to much excitement with the cast and crew for me to believe that.
..color me mary poppins..but i must confess to a rather rosy disposition concerning s9. 😆
The impression I get is it something Dean does to intercede rather than something happening naturally as the result of the trials otherwise it isnt really much of a secret and really there wouldn’t need to be a secret because I would see no reason to hide that from Sam.
And it woulld be abit feeble for Sam to get upset over with Dean to be honest.
just kind of a post thought njspnfan that kind of relates to your theory about this being a process sam is supposed to go through and that it may very well be a good thing.
regarding sam’s fever in the great escapist. i hadn’t really thought about it til i read your post. but what if the fever wasn’t going to kill sam. dean finds him on the floor with fever of 107…natural instinct knowing a fever that high will kill his brother, dunk him in an ice bath, thus saving his life. …under any other circumstance…but what if in this case, sam wasn’t going to die from the fever. it was just part of the process sam was going through. it could be possible that sam’s fever would’ve broke. metatron did tell sam he was resonating. sam was going through a purification process. kevin noted that whoever undertakes the trials, not fear death yada yada.
i guess my point is that if your theory is correct, dean’s save of sam in the great escapist could have unknowing slowed down the process.
talk about a whole new ball of wax on speculating….but it’s fun 😆
sharon if that’s indeed the case, then njspnfan’s point is still plausible, as dean interceding could slow down a process sam is meant to go through. i don’t want to put words in njspnfan’s mouth, but i’m thinking that it’s possible that she’s thinking that dean finds a way to cure sam by interceding, but then after that, it’s possible that dean learns from ??? that sam was indeed in fact meant to go through the stages of the process. dean learns that sam’s change doesn’t come from the fact that dean healed him, dean learns that sam is changing despite the fact that he healed him. so the secret isn’t’ in essence what dean did to heal sam, it’s what he learned from another when he did heal him.
did i get that right njspnfan?
Plausible maybe but I still dont think it would be a secret and it is not what I think they are going for but we shall see.
[quote]Sharon, I’m not sure if you were talking in general or addressing my comments but I can assure you I don’t think Dean has been the only one hurt and let down by those around him. Sam, for sure, has justifiable claims to that also. They have both had trust issues with each other but show has chosen to make Dean, in particular, look especially unforgiving this season with many fans jumping on board with that idea while at the same time saying that Sam was written ooc.
I completely agree with you re: a more openly written Sam. Though that shell of his is part of what makes Sam well,Sam.[/quote]
Leah, are you aware that a turtle pulls into his shell as a protective measure when they precerive they are in danger? Frankly, I’d much rather Sam feel safe around those he should be able to feel safe around enough to come out of that shell. I’d love for those who proclaim themselves friends and family to actucally get to know Sam. And not be surprised when they learn he’s actually a good, heroic man who puts his own wants and desires after everyone else.
[quote]Plausible maybe but I still dont think it would be a secret and it is not what I think they are going for but we shall see.[/quote]
oh hell, i have no idea what they are planning. it’s all guessing. but the one thing i am confident of, is that they won’t be rehashing an already thrice told story of sam going dark.
whatever the deal is, based on jared’s interviews and his total kid in a candy store excitement, seems to me that the story they will be telling is one they haven’t yet done. that i don’t believe is speculation. 😉
[quote]i think jc did a wonderful job of putting the heart back into the winchester’s lives. i didn’t like some of it, but i understood what he wanted to accomplish and the end result was amazing. he has been with show since s3, he knows sam & dean. he saw that the relationship bet. the boys lost its heart and he plotted out the story the way he saw fit to get it back.
the boy’s relationship has changed over the years as is a natural progression of all relationships. now carver brought the boys’ relationship to a new level, one of clarity, understanding & finally laying to rest all the misperceptions ea. brother had regarding the way they thought the other thought about them. so yay for that as that’s been 8 years in the making.
carver made it a point from the start in telling the fandom that this season was about perception. purgatory was not the main story for dean. normal was not the main story for sam. the story was about how sam and dean both mispercieved ea. other, what that ultimately led to and finally clearing up these lifelong misperceptions resulting in each coming to the realization that they never new about ea. other.
sam realizes that all those mistakes he’s made, all his sins against his brother, did not diminish the love dean has for sam. dean didn’t see sam as failing him. yes he was hurt and he made it a point of letting sam know it, but that didn’t mean that dean didn’t love and put his brother above everyone and everything. sam didn’t come in third place behind an angel and a vampire, sam is number one in dean’s world and no mistake sam makes will change that.
dean understands how much sam values him. dean’s misperception that sam didn’t look because he didn’t care was the farthest thing from the truth. sam imploding and running should’ve been dean’s biggest clue that sam couldn’t deal with the loss of his brother. dean’s own issues with lack of self worth was transferred onto sam. ironically, dean is really the only person who’s deaths have affected sam in the most negative way. dean was the only death sam couldn’t handle in the history of show.
i’ve always known how much sam loved and admired dean. i knew it from dead man’s blood. the scene where sam and his dad are arguing by the car, john demanding sam get back in the car & sam defiantly telling him no. then dean steps in and tells sam to get in the car and he does. no question, no hesitation. from that moment i knew that the one person who sam regarded most in this world was dean. sam’s confession at the end of sacrifice only reaffirmed what i’ve always known. but now dean knows it too. sam has finally given dean what dean has always needed, proof positive that dean means more to sam than anything else.[/quote]
Nappi, I’d like your take on this thought that has been bothering me immensley through the seasons. What you said about Dean FINALLY having proof that Deans means more to sam then anything else.
This bothers me because doesn’t the fact that Sam has NEVER liked/enjoyed hunting (evern though he sees the value in it)….that Sam has ALWAAYS wanted a life other then hunting. Dean knows this…its been a source of contention for dean for years. And yet…..Sam has given up EVERY dream, every hope for this other life …the life Sam desires nearly above everything else. I say nearly because there is one thing that Sam desires more…and that is to be Deans brother; to be with his family. Cause Sam KNOWS that Dean beleives they can only be brothers, can only be family is if they are hunters hunting side by side. And so Sam gives up everything he’s wanted for himself and Dean doesn’t see that as a sign that Sam puts Dean before everything?
[quote]Having Dean be responsible for having Sam go evil and then having him hunt down and kill Sam while fan’s cheered is an absolutely sickening scenario and should not be given any credence whatsoever IMO. This has nothing to do with the issues about Sam’s character for me (and I agree there are some). To consider that the PTB would sign off on having Dean do something to change Sam into something monstrous and then not spend the whole season trying to undo what he did, but instead hunt down and kill his brother while fans cheered him on is an unfathomable and offensive idea to me.[/quote]
I could see this scenario solely for the reason that Dean for the past few years has been compared to Batman by the writers. Dean is batman. He has his batmobile, he now has his batcave, he has his batfriend (Castiel). All BatDean now needs is his arch enemy…weatehr it be The Joker or Two Face…aka….Harvey Dent. And here in s9 Sam is gonna be going through some changes. It has really felt to me that this is the direction the writers are going.
[quote]just kind of a post thought njspnfan that kind of relates to your theory about this being a process sam is supposed to go through and that it may very well be a good thing.
regarding sam’s fever in the great escapist. i hadn’t really thought about it til i read your post. but what if the fever wasn’t going to kill sam. dean finds him on the floor with fever of 107…natural instinct knowing a fever that high will kill his brother, dunk him in an ice bath, thus saving his life. …under any other circumstance…but what if in this case, sam wasn’t going to die from the fever. it was just part of the process sam was going through. it could be possible that sam’s fever would’ve broke. metatron did tell sam he was resonating. sam was going through a purification process. kevin noted that whoever undertakes the trials, not fear death yada yada.
i guess my point is that if your theory is correct, dean’s save of sam in the great escapist could have unknowing slowed down the process.
talk about a whole new ball of wax on speculating….but it’s fun 😆
sharon if that’s indeed the case, then njspnfan’s point is still plausible, as dean interceding could slow down a process sam is meant to go through. i don’t want to put words in njspnfan’s mouth, but i’m thinking that it’s possible that she’s thinking that dean finds a way to cure sam by interceding, but then after that, it’s possible that dean learns from ??? that sam was indeed in fact meant to go through the stages of the process. dean learns that sam’s change doesn’t come from the fact that dean healed him, dean learns that sam is changing despite the fact that he healed him. so the secret isn’t’ in essence what dean did to heal sam, it’s what he learned from another when he did heal him.
did i get that right njspnfan?[/quote]
Nappi815 – yes, those were my thoughts, though you seem to be able to make them clearer than I can. (And, for the record, I’m a rare creature on this site, a he, not a she 😉
[quote][This bothers me because doesn’t the fact that Sam has NEVER liked/enjoyed hunting (evern though he sees the value in it)….that Sam has ALWAAYS wanted a life other then hunting. Dean knows this…its been a source of contention for dean for years. And yet…..Sam has given up EVERY dream, every hope for this other life …the life Sam desires nearly above everything else. I say nearly because there is one thing that Sam desires more…and that is to be Deans brother; to be with his family. Cause Sam KNOWS that Dean beleives they can only be brothers, can only be family is if they are hunters hunting side by side. And so Sam gives up everything he’s wanted for himself and Dean doesn’t see that as a sign that Sam puts Dean before everything?[/quote]
AmyH – yes, I’d disagree slightly on Sam and hunting. At times he has hated it, other times ambivalent, but in S8 Torn and Frayed, he made a decision to fully commit to closing the gates of hell. You are right in that he wanted to do this so he could quit hunting but I think that’s going to be a big problem area for Sam in S9 – he’s going to want to cure all of the demons but that’s a never ending job. IMO Dean has always had a more realistic and practical view of hunting, that you’re in it for the long haul and it never ends because there’s always more evil out there.
The bottom line is, Dean is happiest with Sam at his side in the Impala, hunting evil. But, the most important thing for Dean is to keep Sam safe, and hunting is probably not up there on the list of safe jobs. On the other hand, Sam is very ambivalent about hunting but doesn’t want to leave his brother alone out there. And round and round it goes…..
Hi Amy @130- Sorry I just don’t see it happening ever. If this were a movie-of-the-week maybe. But this is a long running show with two beloved characters. The fans would not accept it at all. The idea that Dean, who has said he would rather die than kill Sam, could do that under any circumstances is absolutely unimaginable to me and especially if Dean were somehow responsible. He would move heaven and earth to help/save Sam.
This show is about family, dysfunctional as they are. And I believe the end game, and it would be the end if they killed Sam, would not involve Dean killing his beloved brother. Not going to happen!
regarding @127- I agree Amy. With most everything you said here.
Hi Gwen@118- Thank you for that! I am glad I could help. 🙂
Hey nappi@119-That was sweet of you to say. Thank you. Right back at ya re: positive and rational. 🙂
In response to 132njspnfan,A while back, someone asked why Dean’s eyes drip blood in the Bloody Mary episode. BM prayed on people’s guilt. While Sam felt guilty about not telling Jessica about his dream and his life prior to Stanford, what was Dean feeling? Perhaps, that he had pulled Sam back into hunting because he did not want to do it alone? Never explained until much later in the series. My point is that Sam’s guilt is easily related to things he did or failed to do in the past. Dean’s is a bit more underground. He deals with his secrets by suppresion of the guilt over things he has to do to save Sam. Sam this season jumps in with both feet into hunting because he truly believes he can close Hell and find “normal” afterwards and he wonders if he cannot have both worlds in the freak and geeks episode again revealing his desire for the mundane. Dean would like to see Sam has his safe mundane normal. He knows hunting ends sad and bloody as he is a realist. Sam still imagines possibilities. It is only this season, that Sam wants to bring Dean into the light he sees. But the one thing they both want is to be there for each other no matter what. Not sure I made my point. I think it was in answer to your comment about Sam’s view of hunting. So, Sam’s goal is going to continue to be to rid the world of evil so he can have what he perceives as normal so he is still in the game. Dean says he feels that with MOL knowledge maybe Sam’s vision is possible,or so he says. Sam’s motivation to hunt is to rid the world of evil and have his brother back. Dean now thinks it is possible because of MOL knowledge but his goal is to have his brothers’ back. Both are in the family business now because they choose to be.
njspnfan,
i just wanted to apologize. i shouldn’t have assumed you were a she. 😳
[quote][quote]Having Dean be responsible for having Sam go evil and then having him hunt down and kill Sam while fan’s cheered is an absolutely sickening scenario and should not be given any credence whatsoever IMO. This has nothing to do with the issues about Sam’s character for me (and I agree there are some). To consider that the PTB would sign off on having Dean do something to change Sam into something monstrous and then not spend the whole season trying to undo what he did, but instead hunt down and kill his brother while fans cheered him on is an unfathomable and offensive idea to me.[/quote]
I could see this scenario solely for the reason that Dean for the past few years has been compared to Batman by the writers. Dean is batman. He has his batmobile, he now has his batcave, he has his batfriend (Castiel). All BatDean now needs is his arch enemy…weatehr it be The Joker or Two Face…aka….Harvey Dent. And here in s9 Sam is gonna be going through some changes. It has really felt to me that this is the direction the writers are going.[/quote]
amyh,
even if that were true, based on years of watching, knowing how much dean loves sam, and his speech in sacrifice, which was written by carver himself, those were his words, if dean is actually thought to be batman then sam is and will always be the boy wonder. 😉
[quote][quote]Having Dean be responsible for having Sam go evil and then having him hunt down and kill Sam while fan’s cheered is an absolutely sickening scenario and should not be given any credence whatsoever IMO. This has nothing to do with the issues about Sam’s character for me (and I agree there are some). To consider that the PTB would sign off on having Dean do something to change Sam into something monstrous and then not spend the whole season trying to undo what he did, but instead hunt down and kill his brother while fans cheered him on is an unfathomable and offensive idea to me.[/quote]
I could see this scenario solely for the reason that Dean for the past few years has been compared to Batman by the writers. Dean is batman. He has his batmobile, he now has his batcave, he has his batfriend (Castiel). All BatDean now needs is his arch enemy…weatehr it be The Joker or Two Face…aka….Harvey Dent. And here in s9 Sam is gonna be going through some changes. It has really felt to me that this is the direction the writers are going.[/quote]
Amyh, The batman analogy is merely that an analogy and one made more by the fans than the writers. If you want to further the analogy (which is an irrelevant activity IMO because I seriously doubt that the TPTB of Supernatural are in the process of re-hasing a tired old Batman story) then the only way your analogy would even work is if Batman deliberately corrupted Robin and then had to hunt him down and kill him, and that is something that didn’t even happen in Batman. Supernatural does not lack for original villains that the writers have come up with on their own: Azazel, Uriel, Crowley, Lucifer, Abadon. What need would they have for turning one of their own heroes when they seem perfectly capable of coming up with interesting villains on their own? It seems to me that you want this story to have only one hero, Dean, and have trouble letting both the brothers share that role despite how heroic they’ve both been.
amyh,
also just to try to reassure you that i think you’re letting your fears run away with you….
the whole theory about sam going dark and dean having to kill his brother was a kripke storyline that ended with swan song. don’t forget, at the time, i believe kripke thought the show would end. he always wanted it to end with sam stopping the apocalypse by putting lucifer back…synergy really since it all seemingly began with sam as a baby. kind of went full circle.
seems to me that sam looking through the window at the end of swan song was due to the pick up of s6. swan song =kripke’s swan song as showrunner. the whole 5 yr arc journey sam/dean took was kripke’s storyline. he started it. he ended it.
when gamble took on as showrunner she took the boys in a new direction. sam turning darkside has literally ended with the kripke reign. sure sam got to have a little fun playing at souless, but that was just emporary and part of the whole levi story. i liked s6 and for the most part s7. but i do agree that where the boys should’ve been closer than ever in s7, they seemed more numb than anything else.
carver changed that. he took on the role of showrunner and has taken the show in a totally different and newer direction. i guess it seemed to him that his first job was to get the heart back, show the boys love ea. other. as goofy as it sounds, it’s the ones you love most that get to you the most. sam and dean’s hurt only exists because of the love they have for ea. other, otherwise they wouldn’t give a damn about who did what. not looking, who cares? putting a vampire first? what do i give a damn. it’s love that caused the hurt to exist. so carver managed to get those old issues of the past that were never really resolved laid to rest. it wasn’t easy to watch and at times it sucked i’ll admit, but the end result was all worth it. to be honest, it’s a whole lot easier to watch now and i see the beginning in a new light knowing what i know now.as much as i still think the second half of the season is better than the first half, i can watch the first half now without the frustration i had when i watched the first time. i see things much more clearer than before. anyway i got off subject again. i think my point was that carver brought the heart back to the boys relationship. but he did more than bring the heart back, he brought something to the relationship that’s never really been there. he brought clarity and understanding. all the misperceptions the boys had about ea. other that started during kripke’s reign, which carver was in fact a part of, but has never been resolved while he was away, has now been resolved. no offense meant, but after 8 years it’s about time.
now carver seems to me to be looking towards a future of brand new possibilities with the boys finally at a place they should have been after swan song. i really don’t think carver intends to go backwards, and rehashing long dead storylines, is going backwards. besides jared was so excited about carver and the writers opening up new doors. jared actually mentioned s10 and then said something about going on longer. seems to me the boys are rather rejuvenated…showing a new excitement that wasn’t as present last year…and they all have indicated that this excitement stems from the fact that they are going to places “no man has yet gone to before” 😀
maybe watching the interviews again would help ease your mind. i just rewatched them and i’m convinced that next season will not be a rehash of old long dead storylines. that’s just me though. 😉
Hi E, @138 I agree! Though I do think Amyh does not wish for that scenario, but fears that is where the show might go. So far I think that is the consensus here. I feel it is an unfounded fear and nothing to worry about. As you say, this show is about two flawed heroes and it will never end that way. However it ends, sad or happy, those two will be on the same page and will be as heroic in the final episode as they have been throughout the series! 🙂 I truly believe that.
Leah @140 Thank you for clearing it up for me.
Nappi at @139 First I’d like to thank you and several others for all your posts…it has helped at times. And yes, I believe my fears are practically a run away freight train heading for a sharp curve. But I’m also greatly concerned about something that I hope you (or anyone else) can help me with.
I am am very much haveing a difficult time with the whole text thing. Well…really the fact that I’m concerned that it is done and dusted…with no further conversation between the boys. THink about it. Sam has spent the greater portion of his life being watched by demons;.many…..Ruby and the demon that possessed his friend Brady both infiltrated his life, gained his trust and friendship then used what they knew to manipulate Sam and get him to do what they wanted/go where they wanted. They planned everything.
Dean did EXACTLY the same thing. He used his life long knowlede of Sam, their history, losses, failures, his love…his very HUMANITY against Sam. Dean planned this out, waited for the perfect moment to implement it.
I want to know HOW Sam can even trust Dean with anything personal again. How can he trust Dean to never pull anything like that again? Especially when Dean NEVER had a moment where he felt it was wrong, never questioned thi action? That he never understood the gravity of the action until Sam and later Charlie pointed it out
Does Carver and/or Singer understand the severity of the breach of trust that text caused? frankly, i dont need to be a writer to know the text SHOULD cause Sam .to second guessing revealing anything personal because of the fear Dean might one day use it against him.
And then this angers me partly on Sams behalf because once again what others do against him gets swept under the run and Sammy forgives like a doormat.
But I’;m also angry because Dean is the only person Sam interacts on a personal level with. And if he closes himself off to Dean (once again that turtle metaphor pops up) then Sam ends up closing himself off to the viewer. I want to know more about Sam, his feelings, his thoughts.(Hell I want to oknow if he plays angry birds) .not less.
This does feel like a relarionship going backwards…unless Carver intends to sweep the text under the rug without any further mentioning because Sam isnt allowed to be angry konger then 2.5 seconds.
i’m just going with my perception of the text. firstly, i believe dean prepared the text shortly after southern comfort. it was in sc that sam gave dean amelia’s name and city where they lived. so he had the 411 on her. but it was after sam told dean that he might be the one to ice benny one day. that’s when i think he prepared the text. i do believe that at that time, dean was preparing to prevent sam/benny confronting ea. other. but, as i’ve stated in another post, i believe sam only made that threat out of pain & hurt, because this threat followed dean’s remark about benny being more of a brother this last year than sam has ever been. ouch..and when dean claimed he didn’t remember what he said, sam told dean and believed himself that dean didn’t need the penny to say what he said. i on the other hand do believe that dean needed that penny, because i don’t believe he really feels that way. the penny was just exaggerating his anger and hurt that sam didn’t look for him. i also believe during some point after southern comfort, martin called sam and sam told martin to babysit benny. i also believe at the time martin called, sam was a lot calmer because he told martin to watch benny only and call him when & if benny does something. he could’ve just asked martin to find benny , let him know where he was and sam could’ve snuck off any night and killed him. when we get to citizen fang, sam tells dean that he had martin tail benny. now from this very confession alone, dean had to know that sam’s threat was just that. because dean knew that sam didn’t have to tell him squat. like i said, sam could’ve got benny’s locale and just offed him. but he didnt do that. dean knows it. not only did sam not go off on his own never telling dean the truth, but sam gave dean the time he needed. now sam may not have trusted in benny like dean did, but he certainly wasn’t going off half cocked to kill him either. dean does know sam. and he knew that sam wouldn’t just kill benny. he could’ve done that already. no, it’s my feeling that dean knew sam would want answers. dean was still lying to sam at this time, not telling sam how he really got out of purgatory. even if benny was killing people and sam had to waste him, sam still would’ve questioned him first. sure dean was trying to avoid a confrontation between benny & sam but not because he was afraid they’d kill ea. other. maybe a little, but it’s my belief that dean didnt want sam asking benny questions. if sam found out the truth, sam could use it against dean. prior to citizen fang, dean has been doing nothing but singing benny’s praises around sam. but if sam knew the truth.. you know what i think sam would say if he found out…” dean, you have been kicking me down ever since you got back. you think benny is more of a brother than i’ve ever been. he’s the only one that hasn’t let you down? of course he didn’t let you down dean…he needed you. you were his ticket out of purgatory.” and dean would know sam was right. so the way i see, dean’s text was mostly about protecting himself. like i said, i don’t believe dean was really worried about sam killing benny because sam could’ve done it already.
sending the text was a crappy thing to do and he knew it, i honestly dont think dean realized how crappy it was until sam told him in torn & frayed. dean saw it as dick move but one he felt was necessary like a said, to avoid sam and benny talking, sam saw it as dean choosing benny over him. sam said it in torn & frayed, i’m paraphrasing, but it was something like that’s where we are now,you would protect him by making me believe someone i loved died like jessica did. that’s when dean knew his mistake was more hurtful than he thought. in all honesty, i don’t think dean was thinking in those terms at all. like i said, when he first made the text, i think it was very soon after sam made the threat against benny. but when he sent it, i think dean was just trying to prevent sam from confronting benny on a verbal level, not a physical one.
when sam gave dean that ultimatum in torn & frayed, it was the act of a desperate person trying to save his family. that text convinced sam that dean put benny first. even though that’s not what was going through dean’s mind when he sent it. even if it’s as i believe and dean was just trying to keep sam from benny so sam wouldn’t question him, because dean knew he was keeping sam in the dark, and there was a pinch of fear that at some point it could result in more than just talk, i mean martin was there too, and his brother could get hurt, then sending the text is the obvious choice for dean. but in all honesty, dean tends to do & say stuff without thinking it through and it think this was one of those instances.
so sam makes an ultimatum. don’t think for a minute that didn’t scare the crap out of him. what if dean chose benny? and when dean walked out the door? i can only imagine how sam must’ve felt.
Amyh, I think the text, along with many other things was part of JC tearing the brothers down so that he could then bring them back together. IMO there were so many things that the writers had the characters do and say this year that seemed OTP. The text no matter how you look at it was bad! Even if the motivation was supposed to be keeping Sam & Benny apart. I hope you can eventually see it as an example of someone doing a bad thing for the right reasons. Sam has had a few of those I think. I don’t think, as some have said, Dean did it just to be hurtful. He knew it was a crappy move and felt bad about it later. Charlie didn’t have to convince him, he acknowledged it. I don’t think he completely understood how much he hurt Sam until he saw Sam again. I honestly think JC was trying to repair their relationship but may have caused some permanent damage in the fandom in the first half. Neither character will be forgiven by some of the fans for some of the things that transpired. I did love the last half and the finale. It left no doubt for me about the love, and I am looking forward to next season with the hope that this was a start of a better understanding of each other. It will never be lollipops and rainbows, these two are complete opposites.
I know you are angry and might not agree but I wanted to give my view as not only a Dean fan but also one who loves Sam. Who hopes to see more of the inner Sam and see him develop relationships that are his alone.
but dean knew how much he hurt sam. it’s not the first time dean stormed out of a room when sam nailed him with the truth. dean was angry at the ultimatum sure, but i’m not so sure it was just sam he was angry with. i’d bet a steak dinner he was angry at himself as well. dean’s not stupid. he knows that his action was the reason sam made dean make a choice. now dean knows who he’ll choose, but i’m sure he’s angry at sam and himself for having to make that choice. i get the feeling that dean realizes by now that he didn’t handle things the way he should have. dean storming out the door was partly anger and partly shame. now i know that dean told cas they didn’t need sam, but i think it’s because dean couldn’t face sam. thank goodness cas knows when dean is full of crap. now cas knew something was up, but he couldn’t deal with that at the moment, so he told them to stow their crap, but cas also got sam despite dean’s boo hooing. in a way i think cas knew exactly what he was doing.
working together with sam, having that chat with kevin, just reinforced what dean already knew. it was time to say goodbye to benny. at least for now. i’ll tell something, even if cas didn’t show up when he did, dean still would’ve gone back to sam. i have no doubt.
you may think i’m just speculating on most of what i’ve said, but when i watched larp and the real girl it confirmed all that i believed. dean told charlie what he did to sam and how that wasn’t his finest hour. charlie acknowledged that as a dick move. sort of scolding dean which is what he needed. when you do wrong, you want to be scolded and forgiven. kind of like when sam confessed to bobby that he started the apocalypse. dean knew that he had hurt sam in a way he hadn’t intended. he spent the second half of the season trying to make up for it, which he did in my book.
now sam. well sam has been feeling shame and guilt ever since he realized that he’d made the mistake of believing his brother was dead. i also believe he’s ashamed of breaking, which he didn’t tell dean, but the audience has been given clues about throughout the season. needless to say, sam has yet again failed his brother in a way that he has no idea how to make up for.
someone once posted that sam should’ve apologized to dean for not looking,because all he really did was explain . i always felt sam didn’t need to apologize. sam explaining was his way of telling dean why he didn’t look. see contrary to popular opinion, the actual not looking wasn’t wrong. his mistake was believing his brother died. ea. time dean made a jab, sam would try to explain again. for the record, i believe it is an instinctive reaction to explain to someone their reasons for doing or not doing something. of course there are times if you do something wrong, even after explaining you apologize.i just don’t think it applies here. this is a case where sam unable to look was not a crime. imploding and running, breaking —– not a crime. sam didn’t apologize at first, he tried explaining. he did it quite a few times. then we get to blood brother & the boys are not even together. then the next ep is sc and sam gets a verbal beating from dean in which he lists every mistake sam has ever made. ironically, sam has apologized for every one of those mistakes. what i’m saying is that by the time sc is over i can only imagine sam thinking the same thing i was. what’s the point of apologizing anyway, it won’t make a difference. dean will always see me as a disappointment.
sam had been living with these thoughts(as evidenced in sacrifice) every day. so when trial and error came, sam saw his chance to make up to his brother his failing the only way he knew how, do the trials for him.
at first dean was so adamant about doing them, it seemed sam would stand by his brother every step of the way. that’s how he could make up for his failings. but when dean gave sam the speech as to why it would be him, that’s when sam decided that he would do the trials for his brother. so yes, sam does tend to make up to dean in actions what he can’t atone for with apologies. especially given in sc sam realizing that i’m sorry isn’t always enough.
sam’s biggest fear/misperception has been that he has failed his brother one too many times & therefore dean replaced sam with another, in this case benny. but when dean told him in sacrifice that there isn’t anything past or present that he would put in front of him sam’s fear was allayed. he comes first in his brother’s heart, he always had and always will.dean didn’t see him as the failure sam percieved himself to be. in all honesty amy, there is no reason for sam to ever doubt that or ever believe that dean would do anything to hurt him like that again
boy i’m bet you’re sorry you asked me about that text. 😛
🙂 nappi HA, while I was slooowy typing my post you put up a long post saying many of the same things and so much better.
no leah, it’s just that i don’t know how to give a short answer…i’m so damn longwinded, that you were able to sneak in there before i got to finish.
remember the old dude from playthings…
dean: if you have stories i’d love to hear them
sherwood: boy, never ask an old man if he has stories.
that’s me. they need to put a warning label on me. do not ask for nappi’s opinion unless you have a drink and a snack in front of you..it’s gonna be awhile 😆
by the way, i agree with all you said
😆 If I do grab a drink and a snack it’s because I know it will be entertaining!! Plus who doesn’t love a drink and snack?
[quote]njspnfan,
i just wanted to apologize. i shouldn’t have assumed you were a she. :oops:[/quote]
No apologies necessary and no offense taken 😀
[quote]In response to 132njspnfan,A while back, someone asked why Dean’s eyes drip blood in the Bloody Mary episode. BM prayed on people’s guilt. While Sam felt guilty about not telling Jessica about his dream and his life prior to Stanford, what was Dean feeling? Perhaps, that he had pulled Sam back into hunting because he did not want to do it alone? Never explained until much later in the series. My point is that Sam’s guilt is easily related to things he did or failed to do in the past. Dean’s is a bit more underground. He deals with his secrets by suppresion of the guilt over things he has to do to save Sam. Sam this season jumps in with both feet into hunting because he truly believes he can close Hell and find “normal” afterwards and he wonders if he cannot have both worlds in the freak and geeks episode again revealing his desire for the mundane. Dean would like to see Sam has his safe mundane normal. He knows hunting ends sad and bloody as he is a realist. Sam still imagines possibilities. It is only this season, that Sam wants to bring Dean into the light he sees. But the one thing they both want is to be there for each other no matter what. Not sure I made my point. I think it was in answer to your comment about Sam’s view of hunting. So, Sam’s goal is going to continue to be to rid the world of evil so he can have what he perceives as normal so he is still in the game. Dean says he feels that with MOL knowledge maybe Sam’s vision is possible,or so he says. Sam’s motivation to hunt is to rid the world of evil and have his brother back. Dean now thinks it is possible because of MOL knowledge but his goal is to have his brothers’ back. Both are in the family business now because they choose to be.[/quote]
Debbab… that’s an interesting and very plausible thought on why Dean’s eyes bled in Bloody Mary; just watched the rerun on TNT and hadn’t given it much thought as to why his eyes bled until reading your comments.
And, I completely agree that, after Torn & Frayed, they were in it together and completely committed to hunting.
[quote]A while back, someone asked why Dean’s eyes drip blood in the Bloody Mary episode. BM prayed on people’s guilt. While Sam felt guilty about not telling Jessica about his dream and his life prior to Stanford, what was Dean feeling? Perhaps, that he had pulled Sam back into hunting because he did not want to do it alone? [/quote]
It’s an interesting theory, but I think it was pretty well established in Bloody Marry that Mary preyed on guilt associated with death
Quoting Dean from the transcript
[quote]Right, right. So maybe if you’ve got a secret, I mean like a really nasty one where someone died, then Mary sees it, and punishes you for it. [/quote]
And Later Sam
[quote]You know as well as I do spirits don’t exactly see shades of gray, DEAN. Charlie had a secret, someone died, that’s good enough for Mary. [/quote]
IMHO, Bloody Mary was about secrets and death as well as guilt. Frankly with Kripke gone, I would be surprised if it ever got revisited, but even if it did, I don’t think it would be Dean’s guilt about bringing Sam back into the life. Dean bringing Sam back wasn’t a secret and Dean in no way had anything to do with Jess’s death.
# 150 The way I see the logic of Bloody Mary is that she is like Medusa. If you can see her she can harm you (the people affected are seeing her as their own reflections mostly). But normally you can only see her if you fulfill her requirements, that you feel guilty for a death.
Sam and Dean trap her and break the mirror. Dean doesn’t see her and isn’t affected by her until she escapes from the mirror. Then she is in her real form and in the real world and so causes his eyes to bleed the same way that looking at Medusa directly turns you to stone.
Medusa can be looked at safely when reflected in a mirror, and in this case people who don’t feel guilty of causing a death can look in a mirror safely too.
Well the logic works well enough for me to enjoy the episode anyway 😀 That ep has so many lovely brother moments I don’t much worry about the story ….
Nappi this is in response to #142 and I think Leah #143.
Thank you both for responding but I still wonder how Sam can feel like he can trust Dean after the text? I mean How does he get into the Impala next to Dean knowing Dean has it in him to use their shared history to manipulate Sam. What if Dean some point down the line Dean decides to pull a similar stunt? Wouldn’t this seed doubt and discourse because ther eis always going to be that unknown fear that Dean is going to do it again? That anything Sam might share wit Dean will be used against him and Dean will justify it to himwelf.
I just CAN”T fathom Sam getting int he car with Dean after that. MAybe its just something i need to work out myself via fanfiction.
I have complete faith in Mr. Carver.
hey amyh,
i guess that i don’t see sam’s lack of trust in his brother an actual issue, because sam really does have unconditional faith in his brother. i mean in all honesty, the only time, at the moment, i can remember sam not trusting dean was in s4 .when dean returned from hell he was different, damaged and sam didn’t trust that dean would be able to kill lilith. i can sort of understand where sam was coming from, after all she’d killed him once already. not to mention dean’s talk of being tired, being done. i can see where sam’s abilities, the db, and dean’s descent into surrender would make it easy for sam to not trust that dean could do the job. but other than that, i can’t recall off the top of my head another time where sam didn’t trust in dean.
as for the text, i gotta say that i don’t think that’s the crappiest move dean has ever pulled on sam. i think he’s done worse. personally, i think the crappiest thing dean ever did to sam was throw away the amulet. but sam wasn’t angry at dean for that, he was just so very hurt. dean also told sam flat out in ponr that he didn’t believe in him, which is the excuse he used to want to say yes to michael. that was another pretty crappy move if you ask me. but still, sam as hurt as he was after dean said that, he wasn’t angry at him. he didn’t lose faith in dean. as a matter of fact, in ponr, sam was the only one who did trust dean.
dean killed amy behind sam’s back. you’d have thought that would diminish his trust in his brother, but that’s simply not the case. sam forgives and moves on. sam’s not a grudge holder. sam holds onto pain. in all honesty amy, sam is the most forgiving character on this show. he just doesn’t say he forgives and then secretly still holds onto the resentment, when sam forgives, it’s done. he moves on. it doesn’t diminish the faith or trust that he still has in people he cares about, especially his brother.
. i have to say in the eight years i’ve been watching, and if i’m wrong, please correct me, but as far as i know sam hasn’t brought up anypast mistakes dean has made against him . i’ve never heard a laundry list of items he’s held onto regarding dean and his acts of betrayal towards sam.
when it comes down to it amy, sam forgives. sam moves on. sam never loses faith or trust in his brother. he’s never been written that way and in all honesty, i don’t believe he ever will be written that way. so i can, without a doubt, tell you with personal confidence that sam will never worry about dean hurting him , not in any way that sam couldn’t forgive him for. jmo of course 😉
Nappi
I think I love Sam so much for being able to forgive and let things go. “To err is human…to forgive is devine.” (maybe thats a clue to Sam’s change. Maybe he’s ascending or something)
But a part of me thinks Sam is a fool…that he should sling some mud just as hard and fast as everyone else and stop being the door mat/turtle hybred. The writers seem to prefer writing the mud slinging.
He needs to figure out who he is again. Learn to trust himself and his abilities. he needs to stop putting Dean words ona pedastal…and taking Deans views of him as gospel.
Theoretically…..Sam shouldgo back to the beginning. Leave the world saving to Dean and return to hunting basics:Ghosts and such until he redisovers his self worth and trust in his abiilities. Sam needs some wins under his belt. He needs to save some individual lives…get that connection to the people.
the word fool never comes to mind when i think about sam winchester 😀
i guess for me, it’s not just sam’s actions that make him a hero although they are heroic. for me, it’s sam’s unwavering faith, his unconditional love and trust in dean, his faith in humanity and his never ending resolve to fight … he never gives up on any of those things even when they seemingly have given up on him. that’s what makes sam a hero, at least for me anyway. 😉
I geuss I just would really like to see someone on this show recognise this about Sam and admire that about him. And And I’d like for others to acknowledge his humanity and goodness and everything he’s given up and lost for this job. I’d love it if certain people didn’t seem so intent on destroying that unwavering faith and hope. I get you need to have a certain edge for the job…and I think Sam has it to a degree but I think its that faith and hope that gives him a reason to keep putting one foot in front of the other…and its his love for his brother that keeps him from putting a bullet in his brain when that faith and hope is lost in the fog of despair.
I kind of miss those individual saves from the earlier seasons. You know what I mean…when hunting was personal…that desire too save others from the trauma and pain that they experienced. I miss the heartfelt hugs of gratitude from pips.
I miss the days when Sam could find those moments of joy however brief in the darkness. I miss Sam’s dry sense of humor; his easy smiles. I miss when it wasn’t all lies and angst and conflict.
I miss Sam having friends and actual conversations that didn’t pertain to the job. I miss his amazing hacker skills. And I still want to know what his favorite book, movie, guilty pleasure is. I want to see Sam having some off time….what he would do. As much as I want to see Sam and Dean hang out, having some off the job camaderie (i’d still like to see them play laser tag or paint ball. Cas could join if he’s potty trained) ….they like differtn things and I’d like to see Sam do something HE Likes. Hell, I’m not even sure if Sam knows what he likes anymore.
Sam totally needs a ferris Bueller day off.
Hey Amyh & Nappi815… Wonderful to read your discussions. Exactly the way I feel much of the time. Thanks
I had a thought this morning after reading a s5 22 tag. In order to defeat Lucifer Sam really had to ‘let go’ of his anger . In S8 finale Sam had to let go of his misperception….his sense of failures….his guilt.
Maybe Sam really is ‘ascending’ in some way. While Dean (adn Cas) hang on tight to their resentments and angers and feelings of betrayal and sense of guilt…Sam is letting go of all that negative stuff. He accepts unconditionally. he forgives unbconditionally. He empathises unconditionally. he loves unconditionally.
I don’t quite get how to reconcile this with Carver claiming Sams history was too confusing cause instead of telling a human story for Sam like he claimed…it feels like the trials were simply a catalyst for this this ‘changing’ storyline which just furthers a supernatural one.
Unless Sam via letting go of all the negative stuff…the anger…the guiilt….resentments…..he’s going to become like a spiritual type. Or maybe the change is Sam simply finds true peace within himself. And with himself.
I think it might be worth it if it annoys Dean. I now have a mental image of Sam in orange Buddist robes telling Dean “I’ll get you pie if you Snatch the pebble from my hand.”
lol I now want Sam to be a shaolin priest.
amyh you really have an issue with the pie thing. 🙂 For me personally, having Sam become this perfect spiritual being would be mega boring. I like them all with their imperfections. They all try and do the right things most of the time and their continual struggles to be better are what make the show interesting to me. Just my opinion of course.
hey guys,
i don’t know if we’ve speculated on this already as it’s been awhile since i’ve actually speculated. if it’s been guessed already, my apologies.
but as to dean’s secret and sam’s change. do you think it’s possible, that while dean is frantically searching for a way to heal sam, metatron shows up. now as you know, i’ve already speculated that’s it’s my strong belief that metatron has the one who’s helped the boys all along. i think he’s read all of chuck’s books and i think that the winchester story is probably metatron’s favorite or at the very least among his favorites. i also think he wants that story to continue, as it does become the winchester gospel.
so let’s say metatron offers dean assistance in exchange for the tablets the boys have, and maybe even a favor in the future. in exchange for that, metatron hands dean a needle that contains a few drops of cas’ grace.
now of course sam wouldn’t turn into an angel. no human’s can become angels. it’s just a few drops after all. but what if the few drops not only heal sam, but they awaken in sam his already innate psychic abilities that he’s had since birth. i don’t think they’re gone and i don’t think db caused them. i think he’s always had them. let’s say not only does sam’s psychic abilities awaken, but every once in a while he channels castiel.
i figure that could be one of the reason’s jared’s excited about the change. and his comment on it would be cool and if we didn’t like it, it’s because he’s not doing it justice, would make sense. not that it would be permanent, but wouldn’t it be at least a little cool if jared had to kind of act like misha as cas? at least for a little while and of course in small ways, not to the extreme..
i think i can go for that. 😉
@161 I think it’s been confirmed (or as confirmed as anything is on SPN) that the Special Children were born with their gifts ie they just didn’t manifest themselves until later. We saw with baby Rosie in [i]Salvation[/i], her mother said “I mean she…she never cries. She just stares at everybody. Sometimes she looks at you and I swear it’s…it’s like she’s reading your mindâ€, and this was before YED visited her.
I also think that the kids were all born with just plain old psychic ability but the different ways they came out later depended on what was needed ie Jake was a soldier, he needed super strength to survive. Sam was a hunter so visions of people dying and also the fact that was he could do changed depending on the circumstances (visions, telekinesis, killing demons) helped keep his family alive. It really would have been rather silly for YED to give Sam the power to see and stop demons when he himself was a demon. (Though maybe YED wasn’t the sharpest tool in the box, I don’t know.)
I’ve always thought of the demon blood as more of a tagging system, as a way of giving YED the means to know where the special kids were and make them easier to manipulate. It also would have enabled him to surround the kids with demons as they were growing up, people they were comfortable with. A sort of ‘like calling to like’ type thing?
In relation to the rest of your speculation, I’m not sure. Anything is possible, I suppose. To be honest, I’d find it strange if Metatron was able to get his hand on the elusive Winchester Bibles when, as we saw in [i]The Great Escapist[/i], he hadn’t even read Oliver Twist. Somehow I don’t think those books would be available on Amazon or some place like that.
Ditto with the giving Sam a few drops of angel grace and playing Castiel. That really wouldn’t be something Dean would need to keep secret or for Sam to get angry about, especially as they’ve utilised the power of the angels many times in the past for a bit of healing.
I am very late to the party and am not seeing the link to reply in thread. I am going to comment about Benny. The writing took great pains to show us that Benny was trustworthy and loyal to Dean. One needs to look at the Denny relationship, Benny’s actions, and subtext.
The Purgatory storyline showed us how Dean has changed, how much he cared for Castiel, his loyalty to
those he loves, and the development of the Denny
relationship. We see the pair go from circling each
other to having each others back, so much so that Dean
can reach back without looking and know that Benny is
there. We see that Dean is no fool and that the
relationship grew in real time during which they shared
personal information and grew close. There was real
affection, respect and loyalty between the two which
was conveyed through body language, their
conversations, and the emotions in their faces during
pivotal moments.
With regard to Benny saving Castiel in Purgatory: he did it against his own best interests for Dean. If Benny
were duplicitous he would have tried to save Castiel
and failed. Also it is worth noting that we see Benny
behaving more humanely than Dean in Purgatory; it’s
Benny that turns his head from Dean’s brutality.
With regard to Dean trusting Benny: if Dean didn’t trust
him he would not have ressurected him. He could have
drained Benny’s soul anywhere. He didn’t because he
trusted him. Dean will renege in a deal if he doesn’t
trust a party. He promised Sam not to kill Amy and then
killed her because he knew she had been killing and
would do so again. He promised to deal with Crowley in
Sacrifice and really double crossed him. He sent his
brother the dick text. The only way Dean would
ressurrect Benny is because he trusted him.
Regarding not immediately telling Sam about Benny:
First off lets get something straight, Dean never lied
about Benny. Dean chose to keep his oersonal life
personal because at that point and time Dean didn’t
trust Sam. Dean gave every ounce of himself to save
Castiel in Purgatory. He comes back from Purgatory to
find that his brother did not lift a finger to save him.
This is something inexplicable to Dean; he looks at Sam
as if he did not know him. All l can say that if I were
Dean, I would not trust Sam enough to give him the
time of day after that. It was enough to bring up all of
the other times that Sam let Dean down. This is a real
human response to a situation where someone you love
repeatedly hurts you.
Subtext: Bitten was placed in front of Blood Brothers
for a reason. First it reminded us of the sympathetic/
good monster that doesn’t want to kill which hasn’t
been explored since season 2. This season 2 storyline
always had Sam arguing for mercy and Dean following
Sam’s lead because it was important to Sam. This
behavior was shown to be in contrast to other hunters.
The other hunters were shown to be wrong. Second,
we see Sam having ni trouble allowing Kate to go free.
Thirdly, We get concrete evidence at how Dean’s
relationship with Benny has changed him.
The second bit of subtextually evidence worth noting
are the strong comparisons between Sam and Benny.
The names (Sammy, Benny), the blood addiction which
Benny resists by not feeding live, Dean kills The love of
Benny’s life Andrea IN FRONT OF HIM rather than
behind Sam’s back per Amy because Benny agrees with
Dean, Benny is book learned and quotes philosophy. They took great pains to frame Benny as a brother and hunting partner to Dean, and yes perhaps the ideal brother and hunting partner because they are so much alike, so in sync. Yet Benny is never shown trying to replace Sam. He’s excited to meet him in BB, reminds Dean he has his brother in CF and understands perfectly that Dean needs to save him in TD.
The only ambiguity regarding Benny is whether he can resist his bloodlust. They frame this story like one of an addict because they want us to sympathize. Benny didn’t ask for it and he never became the monster that others become because he remembers his humanity and longs for it. Not feeding is a hard struggle that he endures day by day. He dies willingly because it’s too hard for him to go it alone.
[quote]@161 I think it’s been confirmed (or as confirmed as anything is on SPN) that the Special Children were born with their gifts ie they just didn’t manifest themselves until later. We saw with baby Rosie in [i]Salvation[/i], her mother said “I mean she…she never cries. She just stares at everybody. Sometimes she looks at you and I swear it’s…it’s like she’s reading your mindâ€, and this was before YED visited her.
I also think that the kids were all born with just plain old psychic ability but the different ways they came out later depended on what was needed ie Jake was a soldier, he needed super strength to survive. Sam was a hunter so visions of people dying and also the fact that was he could do changed depending on the circumstances (visions, telekinesis, killing demons) helped keep his family alive. It really would have been rather silly for YED to give Sam the power to see and stop demons when he himself was a demon. (Though maybe YED wasn’t the sharpest tool in the box, I don’t know.)
I’ve always thought of the demon blood as more of a tagging system, as a way of giving YED the means to know where the special kids were and make them easier to manipulate. It also would have enabled him to surround the kids with demons as they were growing up, people they were comfortable with. A sort of ‘like calling to like’ type thing?
[/quote]
Tim I really like your take on the special children. That makes a lot of sense in context – especially the idea that the children developed powers connected to their lives and that the YED was tagging them with demon blood.
It always seemed to me that Ruby’s endgame and the YED’s weren’t really that closely connected.
#163 Castiels Cat
I agree with everything you said – Benny was never meant to replace Sam and he was never shown as wanting that either. He was an interesting character and a great presence on screen although I’m not too sure where they can go with him if they bring him back. All I can think of is him falling off the wagon and embracing his vampire side in purgatory, like an addict with no reason to stay sober. If they bring him back what is the plan have Dean try to reform him and then have to kill him again? As for Sam would we get just angst over his part in Benny being in purgatory and his actions that cut Benny off from his support network – do we need that seeing how Benny and Sam interactions splits camps anyways?
One side seeing Dean’s trust in him as character growth and Sam’s reaction OOC behaviour/hypocrisy where as the others see Sam’s actions as a reaction to Dean’s hypocrisy.
For me with regard to Dean’s trust in Benny, you got to see why he got to that place and that helped show us it was actual character growth and seeing him grow a real friendship. The unfortunate thing is they did was not give us enough of Sam’s inner workings to get Sam to a point where you could truly get his head space (showing that he truly did imploded after Dean’s disappearance rather than just give us FB that emphasized how bad the chemistry between Jared and Liane was), If they had done that then we would have gotten how badly screwed his perceptions at that point were and gotten a better understanding of his actions with regard to Benny.
I dont think it would of taken much of a push to understand Sam’s reaction to Benny , the past and Sam’s experience would not be a bad place to start . Benny is a shining example of the hypocrisy surrounding Sam as a character another one attached to Dean that just happens to be a ‘good vampire’ that Dean happens to find and who happens to be there to highlight Sam’s short comings as a brother.
Not something I wanted to embrace.
You know I think an interesting way to go would be Benny forming a friendship with Sam. Some people dislike Benny for various reasons not the least of which is how Dean/writers used that character to take hurtful digs at Sam. I think it could be an unexpected way to go and we want Sam to have more friends right? Benny’s friendship with Dean is more of a battlefield connection. I think Benny and Sam would be good as friends. I could see it. 🙂 **ducks and slinks away**
No ,not much of a push but in light of Sam being the one who tends to be more open minded with regard to monsters, there needed to be more of a balance between Dean and Benny working to a point of trust in purgatory and Sam’s implosion. But because Sam’s FB being more about him and Amelia rather than how bad it got before he got back on his feet coupled with his actions with Kate his actions with Benny kind of go against the Sam I knew before.
It was a question of tell more than show with Sam which is never good and caused Sam’s flaws (as all humans have) came out a lot more than they should have.
A flawed Sam over compensating for his feelings with Dean is one thing, but it seemed to morph into a point that it was more Sam taking out his issues about Dean on Benny. One I can get but the other I can’t because at no point was it Dean’s head that Sam said he’d go for..
@164
I know Ruby’s and YED’s stories don’t come across as being closely related but I think they are. The whole idea of the demon blood being used by both is too much of a coincidence for me. So, okay, the blood at six months marks the special kids but maybe it also makes them more susceptible to it in the future. I think it would have been easier for Ruby to get Sam on board with the idea of drinking demon blood (especially when it was sold as being what helped him to kill demons) i.e. Sam knowing that he’d already drank it (when he was a baby). By adopting the little and often stance in terms of the blood it made him primed to be Lucifer’s vessel; like training for a marathon!
@165
Jeez, I dunno. I know that I and plenty more viewers posting on here and elsewhere have absolutely no problem understanding Sam’s inner workings in relation to his decision and his actions with regard to Benny based on what we got. I actually find Sam, and his actions, to be [i]very[/i] relatable this season. If you’re interested enough in Sam as a character then perhaps you could do a bit of back reading on here, or anywhere (google various metas etc) it might help you to come to that understanding.
#169 I’ve read around and saw various arguments both understanding and not so understanding then I go back to the episodes (both CF and T&F) and then….Sam tells Dean to make a choice after Martin’s death and all I get an emotional WTF feeling in the gut.
As much as I wasn’t routing for Martin without more to show me that Sam wasn’t on an even keel prior to CF, prior to Dean coming back, Martin’s death should be shown to mean more to a Sam, whose screwed perception had pegged Benny as a wrong’un, than his outburst to Dean lead us to believe. That outburst can easily be boiled down too ‘its me or Benny and you hurt my feelings because you played on my greatest fear when you were trying to stop me ‘talking’ to your ‘friend” and screw the dead man who knew us from childhood who wouldn’t have even known about Benny if it wasn’t for Sam.
Believe it or not, I can handle Sam not looking for Dean or Kevin but his actions with Benny and his reaction to Martin’s death was a step too far for me. I’ve tried but I can’t shake his motives involved him taking out some of his issues with Dean out on Benny, who even if it had turned out he was killing instead of the other vamp who was, wasn’t actually an active party to the Winchester infighting so didn’t deserve to be dragged into Sam and Dean’s issues.
Now you can forgive that because Sam is supposed to be a complex character but I don’t think you should simply forget it either.
#167 I don’t know about Sam and Benny being friends. Sam needs friends true but I think he needs his own rather than again having the same ones as Dean because Cas and Charlie seem primarily Dean’s friends not Sam’s. Sam needs his own friends that are his first, who help build up his own sense of personhood outside the one he thinks Dean should give him.
Plus if Benny came back…how exactly are him and Sam meant to interact? How much would we have Sam angsting about being wrong about Benny, how long would we have Benny trying not to put a foot wrong in front of Sam? Would that actually be a friendship or would we be spending most of our time just a truce to placate Dean.
There is no proof that Sam’s actions in Citizen Fang are motivated by jealousy or some sort of irrational problem with Dean that he is taking out on Benny.
If Dean arranged for someone to watch a ‘monster’ that Sam was friends with and was keeping secret that would be considered reasonable and restrained behaviour by Dean.
It is reasonable and restrained behaviour by Sam under the circumstances and considering all the suspicious events that had occurred to do with Benny and Dean’s completely unexplained behaviour regarding Benny.
It maybe reasonable and restrained for Dean to ask someone to watch because that fits with Dean’s character. But for Sam to ask someone to ask after Lenore, Amy and Kate only a few episodes before? That is different, that doesn’t exactly fit with Sam’s character and that is the difference especially as it seemed to be also tied in with Sam’s fights with Dean after he found out about Benny.
Sam and Dean have different characters when it comes to their reasoning with monsters and we saw exactly why Dean had changed his thinking with regard to monsters – we didn’t with Sam other than Dean kept it from him, which is on Dean not Benny. As for suspicious behaviour with regard to Benny? Other than Dean disappearing (which again is on Dean not Benny) when has one death would sparked a hunters notice except Martin fell over the body.
Also the confrontation between Sam and Dean and Sam basically said it was him or Benny? What the hell was that after Sam and Dean’s argument about trust and Benny being a better brother?
Now if they had shown us more about how Sam was just holding it together in the FB or at any point outside the finale, I may have felt it was more Sam overcompensating for his perceived failings by showing he could be caring brother and watching his brother’s back when Dean couldn’t see it being needed to be watched but without that I kind of got a more Sam is taking out his issues especially when Martin’s death was never brought up again.
frazzie@179 🙂 I just thought and think it would be interesting, I knew there would be little agreement. I also knew that the fact that Benny being Dean’s friend first would be a huge issue. I like unlikely friendships.
I think Sam should have friends of his own too!! I just like the idea of exploring it.
[quote]It maybe reasonable and restrained for Dean to ask someone to watch because that fits with Dean’s character. But for Sam to ask someone to ask after Lenore, Amy and Kate only a few episodes before? That is different, that doesn’t exactly fit with Sam’s character and that is the difference especially as it seemed to be also tied in with Sam’s fights with Dean after he found out about Benny.
Sam and Dean have different characters when it comes to their reasoning with monsters and we saw exactly why Dean had changed his thinking with regard to monsters – we didn’t with Sam other than Dean kept it from him, which is on Dean not Benny. As for suspicious behaviour with regard to Benny? Other than Dean disappearing (which again is on Dean not Benny) when has one death would sparked a hunters notice except Martin fell over the body.
Also the confrontation between Sam and Dean and Sam basically said it was him or Benny? What the hell was that after Sam and Dean’s argument about trust and Benny being a better brother?
Now if they had shown us more about how Sam was just holding it together in the FB or at any point outside the finale, I may have felt it was more Sam overcompensating for his perceived failings by showing he could be caring brother and watching his brother’s back when Dean couldn’t see it being needed to be watched but without that I kind of got a more Sam is taking out his issues especially when Martin’s death was never brought up again.[/quote]
In general I don’t understand why stuff that applies to one brother doesn’t apply to the other (it is my ongoing issue with many of these discussions).
We will have to agree to disagree I think.
[quote]As much as I wasn’t routing for Martin without more to show me that Sam wasn’t on an even keel prior to CF, prior to Dean coming back, Martin’s death should be shown to mean more to a Sam, whose screwed perception had pegged Benny as a wrong’un, than his outburst to Dean lead us to believe. [/quote]
Sam? I was far more appalled by Dean practically dancing in the streets that Martin was dead. This is Dean “If a supernatural thing kills a human being EVEN to protect its own family it must be executed immediately” better known as the Amy rule. Benny killed a hunter, who, BTW was willing to let Elizabeth go once Benny surrendered. Martin was one of the few hunters that believed in Sam and Dean during the whole Sam let Lucifer out debacle. But Dean could not care less that a friend was killed by a supernatural creature. THEN Benny decides that he WANTS to die because he can’t cope in the world. If he had let Martin live it would have solved his problem and Dean wouldn’t have had to kill his friend. At least Sam was appalled that Martin was DEAD. Dean could not have been less interested.
#174 my point is that Sam and Dean react differently to things so their actions must be taken in context of what we have seen their personalities before. That is all.
Now Dean up until Benny had to be shown that the monster hadn’t killed – but we got a reason why he got to a point he trusted Benny even if he was conflicted about it, we got to see that growth, we got to see that translated into giving Kate a second chance.
But what exactly in the situation with Benny made Sam act differently than he did with every other monster he has given a second chance to? We didn’t get as much as lead up to that. The only reasoning we got was he didn’t trust Benny because he didn’t get Dean’s actions but is that actually on Benny? What exactly made Benny, the person who’s was the person who’s head was actually on the block different from Lenore, Amy and Kate all of which Sam agreed to give a second chance other than Dean keeping him a secret.
What with the fighting between Sam and Dean it seemed to be a lot more about them than really being about Benny and that wasn’t right.
But as you said we can disagree.
#175 as for Dean not reacting to Martin’s death, not exactly happy about that but he did warn Martin what would happen if he went up against Benny. Sam was appalled for what two minutes then Amelia turned up then it was him or Benny and Dean hurt my feelings. Not Dean used Sam’s feelings to leave Martin alone to get killed.
Also Dean got the story from Elizabeth’ remember?The innocent woman who’s throat Martin held a knife to. Now I don’t think she was exactly viewing things as Martin was willing to let her go after Benny surrendered. To her Martin was the creepy guy who cut her and held a knife to her throat to get the guy who had been nothing but nice to her laid his head on her counter to be chopped off then she had witnessed his throat being ripped out and then Benny left, hadn’t hurt her and told her how to get hold of someone who could help her.
Sam got screwed in a lot of the first half of the season which could have been sorted if they had given him better flashbacks instead of focusing on a relationship which had little to no chemistry.
@leah unlogged
I get what you are saying but I’m not sure how exactly it would translate without having a long period of Benny and Sam dancing around each other to please Dean and it would be nice to have a Sam relationship that in the end didn’t boil down to Dean in some way. Hell even Meg, who started out as primarily relating to Sam became more about Cas and Dean seeing how when she reappeared in season 6 she too was an apprentice of Alistair.
If one watches for the complete story rather than for evidence to exonerate one’s favorite character it often takes several episodes or maybe a season for everything to click into place. The themes for Sam were redemption which included forgiving himself and proving himself to Dean. Sam fell apart and ran. He’s done it before. He falls apart when Dean is dead. This time it was Amelia and normal not Ruby and a blood soaked revenge. Running isn’t when he errs. He errs when he tries to make things right. I think his shame at letting Dean down leads him to prove Dean wrong and when that fails he resorts to the grand gesture. After Ruby he ignores Dean, beats him and kills Lilith. His answer is to jump into the pit which is good for the world and a BDH Moment that makes Sam feel great. It doesn’t make Dean feel great. He loses his brother and feels that Sam doesn’t care enough about him to trust him over a demon.
In 8 we have a version of this with Sam in the human role. I think without a doubt Sam’s actions towards Benny are the result of Sam’s shame at letting Dean down. Because Sam is unable to admit it to himself he blames Benny. Benny the blood drinker that Dean trusts. Benny the monster that succeeded where Sam failed. It’s a combination of jealousy and self hatred and it propels Sam once again to prove Dean wrong, and in trying to do so Sam behaves very badly. In a way he releases his inner devil. Martin dies. Elizabeth is tortured and traumatized. Benny loses his normal. Dean is assaulted and chained. Sam’s actions cause disaster. Not a supernatural disaster because in 8 Sam’ story is human. To fix things he tries another BDH maneuver, the Trials.
Why Have Sam do the trials? why have Sam wallow in his flawed humanity. As Carver noted, Sam’s storylines have been ridiculous. In his first arc he was framed ad the literal antichrist, the vessrl of the devil’s second coming prior to the Apocalypse. The character was ruled by emotion, was prideful, angry, and repeatedly hurt his brother. Jumping in the pit fixed the mistake he made in releasing the devil. It did not erase his treatment of Dean, nor was the devil made me do it a good excuse. That excuse only works for demons, hence Abaddon’s tee. Sam should have emerged from hell fully human and remorseful, a better man. Instead he spent two seasons missing parts of himself and still hurting Dean.
In my mind Carver was brilliant in 8. He evokes season 1, reframes many of the brothers’ history in a human story, gives Sam a hero’s arc that is abandoned because the point is to give Sam character growth and a human redemption story. The trials purify Sam of supernatural taint, much as Sam tried to remove the supernatural by seeking normal, and Sam is forced to confront his sins, his mistakes, the times he let Dean down. Only by admitting these things to himself can Sam move forward.
The MOL was created to give Sam a place in hunting. After season 8 I think Sam’s place will be to grow into his new role. He will not have special powers unless he learns more MOL spells. With Castiel now human, and Crowley humanized, TFW becomes human. I am pretty sure this is deliberate.
@177 fazzie (called you frazzie last time,sorry) I don’t really see why they would have to both do a dance to please Dean but OK. I would think Dean would be fine with it and perhaps encourage it. Now that the cards are all out on the table. Hopefully. Who knows. Won’t happen though, so…….
@ Castiel’s cat
See your interpretation I can get behind because at no point does it actually excuse the behaviour with regard to Benny and explains his actions as a human being I just wish I could feel more behind it with the flashbacks we got for Sam apart from everytime I see them forcing myself not to fast forward them .
But at the same time I wonder if Carver will build on that, which I hope he does because a human Sam with his own sense of worth outside the mytharc has been sorely lacking for years just like a myth attached Dean outside facilitating everyone else’s special thing has been lacking. But I’m not sure we are going to get it seeing how the spoilers seem to involve Sam changing again and Dean keeping secrets.
Also at present the only two reasons to bring Benny back right now that I can see is for Sam again have to confront his actions (because as much as the trials were an attempt to square his failures with Dean they didn’t exactly square them with Benny) and to make some fans happy. How long can they stretch Benny out with those reasons without turning him evil and essentially making it Sam’s fault because of Benny losing his support system so feeling the need to give up return to purgatory and retreat into vampire mode or having Benny become the Supernatural version of Spike or Angel while Cas has no grace so leaving Benny to be the supernaturally powered one in team free will
@Leah unlogged. It is fine to call me fazzie
As for Benny and Sam being friends. I’m sure Dean would encourage it just I think it would be tense for a long time before it settled into a rhythm. Also as much as I get where you are coming from, I think that I have just gotten fed up with most of Sam’s relationships coming back to Dean or blowing up in his face. For once I’d like to see him have a friend of his own, a drinking buddy that is his before they meet Dean that isn’t screwed up to the point they’ll cheat on their husband or try to get him to release Lucifer.
Dean was sorry for Martin but he was not to blame. He said it wasn’t Benny. He said they couldn’t take Benny. He warned them. Sam was the one who seemed to feel nothing for Martin. He just wanted to play the injured party, yet he is the responsible one. He was the angry one, the jealous one, the one that always lets his emotions get the better of him. This is why he was given a human redemption arc. Sam needs to start
taking some responsibility for his actions and stop
trying to blame others. After Sacrifice I expect to see
him grow.
Dean on the other hand always takes too much
responsibility. This season we see Castiel call him out on this, and remind him that he is not responsible for
others’ choices and that he cannot save everyone.
Clearly Dean listened. I for one was happy to see him
call others out on their crappy behavior and stop being Sam’s doormat. They had Dean repeat everything from SC in Sacrifice and had Sam confess them because Dean is a character and his feelings are valid. It is high time Dean stood up for himself. Dean changed in Purgatory. He’s geeky and has chick moments with
friends, he’s a born hunter/leader/strategist and he’s
tired of the way Sam and Castiel treat him.
OMG he sent Sam a booty call text to get Sam out of the way, save his life and to get him laid. OMG Sam left, lived and loved. When Dean saw Sam was hurt he apologized for causing the hurt because it wasn’t his intent. With Charlie he admits it was a dick move but actually he doesn’t seem to feel guilty.He does ferl guilty for ruining Sam’s normal Even though Sam left Amelia in the pilot. OMG is Sam lying by withholding that information. Naw, it’s Sam’s private business and he hasn’t felt like talking about it… Kinda like how Dean didn’t want to talk about Benny. Yes trust is a two-way street and the infamous text is a symbol of the void between them. It is not the worst thing ever. It doesn’t justify all of Sam’s bad behavior. If it did Sam wouldn’t have been given a story where he had to confessed his mistakes. That would have been Dean’s story. Dean apologized for the text because Dean admits his mistakes. Sam didn’t/hasn’. So Carver forced him to. It was a pretty big deal.
[quote]OMG he sent Sam a booty call text to get Sam out of the way, save his life and to get him laid. OMG Sam left, lived and loved. When Dean saw Sam was hurt he apologized for causing the hurt because it wasn’t his intent. With Charlie he admits it was a dick move but actually he doesn’t seem to feel guilty.He does ferl guilty for ruining Sam’s normal Even though Sam left Amelia in the pilot. OMG is Sam lying by withholding that information. Naw, it’s Sam’s private business and he hasn’t felt like talking about it… Kinda like how Dean didn’t want to talk about Benny. Yes trust is a two-way street and the infamous text is a symbol of the void between them. It is not the worst thing ever. It doesn’t justify all of Sam’s bad behavior. If it did Sam wouldn’t have been given a story where he had to confessed his mistakes. That would have been Dean’s story. Dean apologized for the text because Dean admits his mistakes. Sam didn’t/hasn’. So Carver forced him to. It was a pretty big deal.[/quote]
No, Dean sent an I’m pinned to the ceiling with flames starting around me text, NOT a booty call. The message indicated that Amelia was IN DANGER. I agree, Dean did not feel guilty, but I think he should have.
Sam HAS apologized for what he has done. He said he was wrong to go to college for goodness sake. He said he was sorry about everything in season four. He tried to find out what he had done while soulless so he could make up for it. The fact that Dean is unable to let go of his hurts does not mean that Sam has not apologized. Frankly, Dean has not apologized either. He was crystal clear that he was not sorry about Amy, or Martin dying or browbeating Sam about Sam’s failures. He was never sorry for putting Sam through the pain of knowing Dean sold his soul for him and then watching Dean be ripped apart by Hell Hounds. Dean does feel guilty about many things that are not his fault. He is not all that guilty about things he actually does. One of Sam’s good qualities is that he forgives easily and readily, so Dean get forgiven without having to do much. Sam gets told by Dean about every mistake he has ever made and reminded of it whenever Dean feels like it.
Constantly reminding your brother what a failure he is until he thinks the only way to make up for things is by committing suicide is not a good thing. Not even noticing that you are pushing him that hard is not loving and devoted.
In the end, because the premise of the show is the brothers fighting the supernatural, Dean will get exactly what he wants, Sam in hunting for the rest of his life no matter how miserable it makes Sam. The MOL may give Sam a way to reconcile his life, but it is still not what he wants. As the show is set up, Sam can never have the life he wants, and that makes me sad.
At Fazzie, if I were them I would not bring Benny back to ruin him. He redeemed himself before we met him and he redeemed himself again by staying in Purgatory rather than risking coming back and messing up. He is very noble and worthy to be Dean’s friend. He should only come back if the backdoor between hell and purgatory that Sam left open is an issue and/or if Dean finds a cure for him in a tablet or at MOL. Having a character fall will not redeem another character. It will not exonerate Sam, and I suspect any fans that feel Sam was unfair to Benny would be angry by that turn of events. The only way to redeem a character is for them to recognize their mistakes (check!), feel remorse (check!) and atone. This is why finding fault with Dean to excuse Sam’s actions doesn’t work. It’s delusional thinking and both Kripke and Gamble dabbled in it. Thankfully Carver seems to be more evolved.
I also don’t think he forgot about Dean. I think he shifted Dean into a proactive warrior and leader using Purgatory as the catalyst. He positioned the rest of TFW so that they lost their supernatural baggage, which frees them for character growth. They all will be finding their place and taking responsibility for their actions. Consequences will be important as Carver said.
Of course the reluctant hero arc that kripke used for Sam won’t work for Dean. He has always defined himself by TFB and was never reluctant. I don’t ever see him getting the coming of age/BDH arc that Sam got, and I was not bothered by Sam attempting the trials. Dean doesn’t have anything to prove. In fact I would find it interesting if they took Dean a little dark. We saw that Purgatory helped him accept all facets of his personality, even the dark part that enjoys torture and decapitation. Some of the lines he’s dropped this season are chilling (losing one’s soul was a cheap price to pay, killing possessed Mama Tran is just another nightmare, when is decapitation not my thing). He’s harder and colder.. okay sometimes hard times call for hard heroes. Even Metatron describes God as a hardass dick. That said I can’t help but remember his introduction this season as a virtual MotW, and I can’t help but think that Dean isn’t from Kansas anymore; he’s become the thing to be feared in the night. He kept talking about being in or out/you’re with me or against me. I would not want him against me.
I wish for Sam to grow after Sacrifice too and take responsibility for his actions in a human sense of the word. Because for all that some have called text the worse thing that Dean has done to Sam all I could keep screaming was ‘dead body on the floor Sam, the man you introduced into the situation is a dead body on the floor and you are acting like it is a case that your brother has a new bestie you don’t like and he pulled a school room prank on you’
However I’m not 100% hopeful that we will see a more adult Sam what with the whole idea of Sam being healed through a secret Dean keeps and then getting narked about it…well it seems like a rehash of what we have seen before. Because for me, Sam growing would also include accepting that the trials purifying him is little more than wish fulfillment on his side.
Growth for me would also include that him divorcing his mistakes from the demon blood in his veins. That he accepts that the demon blood even though gave him abilities in the end had little to do with his actual choices and he is responsible for those and actions that happened because of them. It would human for Sam to get that and move on with his life and not dwell on his mistakes being the result of him being ‘impure’ or lesser because of demon blood and he’ll fix them by jumping into a pit or doing trials. because in the end those actually do little to make the other people hurt actually get that Sam understand how bad they feel and deals with that pain.
@Castiel’s Cat
I agree they shouldn’t bring Benny back to ruin him. It was a good end for the character (thought the episode itself was …well did canon exist afterwards?) The only thing right now I can see bringing him back could add is for Sam to say sorry to Benny for what happened in CF and to be honest seeing how Martin held Elizabeth hostage Benny might not be 100% forgiving on that score.
If they brought him back to deal with the door being open between hell and purgatory then fine or even if there was a tie in with regard to finding out info about the Alpha Vamp seeing how Benny’s maker had been around for so long then fine but if not leave him be.
As for Carver being more evolved than Kripke and Gamble – I don’t know. Dean in the first half at least had purpose Dean in the second half was one step of Martha Stewart pulling back from that hard edge he had in the beginning of the season – he went from Dean with a purgatory blade to Dean the man with memory foam.
I get that some can argue that Sam needed the trials to get him to the point he confessed his failings and shoving more in for Dean outside him getting comfortable at bunker to the point he had a home would be cluttered but Dean did seem relegated to being not much more than connective tissue between Sam and Cas stories which is hard to watch for someone who is has previously been such a proactive character having effectively has to do things to facilitate the success of people who are telling him he is meant to sit on the sidelines while they complete trials.
@Castiel’s Cat but if Carver follows through on actions having important consequences then great. I’d watch that but all TFW have to have that because I am kind of nervous about regressing of having a supernatural wand to fix Sam which in the long run robs him of his ability to work through his emotions. I don’t want to have to sit through another set of trials to get Sam to the point he could break down like he did in Scarifice.
Sam’s confession in the finale should be the start of the human Sam journey it shouldn’t be a box ticked to get onto the next supernatural thing that will change him into something else.
Percysmom I disagree with most of your comments. I am a Dean girl that adores Dean with Castiel and Benny. I do not love everything I see but I think about it and try to play devil’s advocate. I am an older sibling that had an ill parent and a younger brother that was treated differently than me. I really get Dean and have trouble liking Sam sometimes. A lot of Dean fans are close to quitting because they are sick of the Sam show. A lot of Dean fans were furious that he chose Sam over Benny. They hate Sam. This is because of past writing. What seems like apologizing to you doesn’t work for everyone. If this is truly a show about brothers then Sam needs to atone as a brother. I am not going to have a quote off with everyone. All I can say is Carver took things In a direction that I think was necessary to make Sam a character that works in the show. To you the problem is lack of POV, to me the problem is that they kept flinging supernatural nonsense at the character; made him do bad things that were blamed on demons, the devil, no soul; had Dean blame Dean or John for his actions; and repeatedly flip out on Dean. Sam doesn’t like to accept responsibility or blame. This alone he never apologized for hurting Dean. Dean didn’t mean to hurt Sam with the text and honestly if Sam was worried about demons he would have warded the house and taught Amelia some things. People in dire need call 911, or their husband. They do not send a text that says ” I need you come quickly” to their paramour across country. Vets are not stupid and Sam is not stupid. All this shows us is that Sam makes bad choices when he’s emotional. It hits that trope our of the ballpark. But hey, even if I am wrong and Dean sent that text out of spite because he watched the show and knows everything Sam went through with Amelia and all the inner workings of Sam’s mind… even then at least Dean was man a lot to apologize. It counts for a lot in some circles.
Carver conceived this season to fix things. He took an entire season to develop the characters and/or set them up for massive arcs. I applaud him for this. It’s really hard to fix something that is so broken. The easy thing would be to spackle the show with more sparkly special Sam and ignore the rift between the brothers who seemed like coworkers who didn’t like each other part of the time and jealous lovers the rest.
I hated Dean Cleaver the guilty cheerleader, but I am also able to see that Dean enjoys nesting and that he planned a lot of their moves for the trials, and was busy becoming a mentor, leader and friend to other hunters. For instance in Freaks and Geeks, another story where innocent vamps were being killed by bloodthirsty hunters that believed they should die regardless because they hurt and wanted to kill a vamp. Yes that is more subtext to interpret Sam and Martin wanting to kill Benny and once again Dean was right.
[quote]If one watches for the complete story rather than for evidence to exonerate one’s favorite character it often takes several episodes or maybe a season for everything to click into place. [/quote]
Wow, thank you, over several posts this is the ONE and only thing you have said that I can even begin to agree with. You might consider taking that advice yourself perhaps? Just a thought.
[quote][quote]If one watches for the complete story rather than for evidence to exonerate one’s favorite character it often takes several episodes or maybe a season for everything to click into place. [/quote]
Wow, thank you, over several posts this is the ONE and only thing you have said that I can even begin to agree with. You might consider taking that advice yourself
perhaps? Just a thought.[/quote]
I mean watch the entire thing without dismissing anything as out of character or bad writing. Personally I find it very scary that so many people think that Sam isn’t responsible for his actions. Well since Dean wasn’t reduced to a blubbering mess over being forced to acknowledge the mistakes that he has made over several seasons in the finale I stand by my conclusions.
And since I frequent many websites I know that I am far from the only person that thinks Sam should take responsibility for his actions and their consequences, like Dean does, like Castiel does. And since Carver has discussed that next season all of the characters will face the consequences of their actions I imagine Sam will start to do just that.
[quote][quote][quote]If one watches for the complete story rather than for evidence to exonerate one’s favorite character it often takes several episodes or maybe a season for everything to click into place. [/quote]
Wow, thank you, over several posts this is the ONE and only thing you have said that I can even begin to agree with. You might consider taking that advice yourself
perhaps? Just a thought.[/quote]
I mean watch the entire thing without dismissing anything as out of character or bad writing. Personally I find it very scary that so many people think that Sam isn’t responsible for his actions. Well since Dean wasn’t reduced to a blubbering mess over being forced to acknowledge the mistakes that he has made over several seasons in the finale I stand by my conclusions.
And since I frequent many websites I know that I am far from the only person that thinks Sam should take responsibility for his actions and their consequences, like Dean does, like Castiel does. And since Carver has discussed that next season all of the characters will face the consequences of their actions I imagine Sam will start to do just that.[/quote]
Yes and my point is that if what Sam did is so awful then you need to take a step back and look at what Dean has done through the same lens. You made the above statement and then exclusively focused on things Sam did that you have a problem with because of your need to ‘exonerate [your] favorite character’.
Or maybe neither one of them has done anything that is so awful, just dealing with life as it happens to them.
I am not inclined to get into a discussion that starts from the basic premise of Dean-girls ‘hating Sam’ as you say in one of your posts because I don’t believe it is true (and I have equally as much evidence for my assertion as you do).
You mean sending the text or not letting the fact that Sam let him down drop. I acknowledge he was a dick. I like the fact that he treated his little brother the same as anyone else. He was pissed and he showed it. I like Dean as a dick. He loves his brother but he doesn’t have to like what he does, especially when he doesn’t understand it comes from a place of self hatred. Now he knows.
I don’t understand why his friendship with Benny was bad. He told him to keep his nose clean. He did. He clearly didn’t feed on Martin given the large, undisturbed blood pool, and the fact he left the kill out lets me know he left as quickly as possible because he was fighting the urge. He didn’t try to take out Sam and Martin before they went for him. We had a lot of backstory to establish both Benny’s goodness and remind us of Sam’s history of compassion towards monsters. We had a second episode where Dean stops hunters from killing innocent monsters. I am confused about what I missed. Benny was truly a good guy.
In the end Dean decided that Sam’s life was worth more than getting revenge. Poor Castiel, his older brother Metatron came to a different conclusion.
I am not under any illusion about Dean. He’s a dirty hero for dirty times. I can’t be happier that he’s become a hardass rather than a doormat.
[quote]I acknowledge he was a dick. I like the fact that he treated his little brother the same as anyone else. He was pissed and he showed it. I like Dean as a dick. [/quote]
Cool, ok. Well different show for different people I guess. I personally am glad that Sam is not a dick. Jensen says he tries to play Dean as not being a dick. Mostly I don’t think Dean IS a dick (though with the things you mentioned along with the the continuing inability to forgive anything up to and including the breakfast cereal Sam got when he was 5, (I am guessing on current information), there has been a fair amount of it this season) nor do I want it for him. But if that sort negativity and Dean’s continuing poor self-worth is what you want out of the show, then go for it, I really don’t know what else to say to you.
Apparently, though, these things are going to change next season and all the characters will get some development so if you want to continue to enjoy the show I think you are possibly going to have to get over your (and all the Deangirls who ‘hate Sam”s) problems with Sam since many if not all of them have at this stage been blown WAY out of proportion.
Just my opinion.
Oh I guess that I didn’t explain
myself very well. I think Dean’s self-worth issues are long gone which is why he is standing up for himself and asking Sam to explain his behavior. I think the tete a tete with Castiel in 8:7 was to put the crippling guilt to rest. Dean is an individual character and was not created just to care for Sam. In fact I saw no guilt frim Dean regarding the text. He apologized for hurting Sam which was Dean taking responsibility for the consequences. I prefer a character that speaks his mind and always comes through for his loved ones to one who runs away (feeding on abandonment issues) or decides to kill my friend because his feelings are hurt. In episode 3 Sam tells Dean that wants something more than hunting and that Dean should hunt with someone else. In 5 Dean does just that and Sam flips well before he finds out Dean’s friend is a vampire. It’s rather comical. As Sam pines for normal and a better life with his bitchy, bedraggled aldulteress; Dean actually was building a life for himself in hunting.
I am not fan girling… au contraire I actually have spent a lot of time trying to understand Sam’s very human little brother perspective. What I don’t care for is the fanwanking that removes all blame from one character and puts onto others. Dean said in Trial that they both were responsible for the events in CF. Sam’s response is to order Dean to not see Benny ever if he wants Sam in his life, like a jealous lover. Poor Benny. Poor Dean to lose such a good friend. Poor Martin is dead. Poor Elizabeth tortured and traumatized. Poor Sam his feelings were hurt.
Actually I think he lost more than that. Of course Dean loves him. Dean never stopped loving him. I am not sure that Dean likes him anymore. He sent the text. He called Sam from the nest to rile him up and use him as a distraction. He praised Garth to taunt him. He didn’t really seem guilty that he sent the text, just surprised that Sam reacted like he did. And he never backed down regarding the times that Sam had let him down. And confronted with Sam at the end he calmly talks him down, tells Sam that he is his brother and always comes first; he never tells Sam that it’s Okay and he forgives him. He just says stop your life isn’t worth my revenge. I know that you all will think that this makes Dean mean, a big Dean meanie. But sometimes lines are crossed that are not easy to erase. In Clip Show Sam tells Dean to cut Castiel some slack. Dean replies that Castiel would be dead for what he’s done, if he weren’t Castiel (if Dean didn’t love him). That’s not too different from what Dean said about Sam seasons ago; if you weren’t my brother (if I didn’t love you) I would kill you.
Dean is loyal to those he loves. Those scenes in Purgatory showed us that Dean doesn’t leave a man behind and that he would do anything to save a loved one. I think that Sam not lifting a finger to look for him coupled with not listening to him about Benny was the proverbial straw. I think Castiel letting go and Castiel not trusting him was another proverbial straw. Dean broke in his own way; he’s human. Sure he’s sorry his words hurt; their choices, their betrayals hurt him. He has a right to his feelings and he has a right to express them. He’s human and flawed but he damn well has the right to be pissed.
If the darkness I sense is as real as his mistrust of those around him to do the right thing, we may see him stumble a bit, if not outright fall. That’s fine with me as long as he eventually owns up to it and tries to fix it on both the cosmic and the personsl scale.
The spoilers really don’t spoil much more than anyone watching the show couldn’t figure out for themselves, except for the little that they’re saying about Dean. It was obvious that Sam will need healing, that Sam will be on a massive character development arc and will face the consequences of his actions (it’s the next logical thing after admittance and remorse), that the angels would have powers but lost their wings (teleportation), that Castiel is human with memory (his sorrow, his tears), that Crowley is prisoner and really messed up, that Abaddon would be back and the angels would wreck havoc in different ways. Dean saving Sam is a no brainer but the idea that Dean’s actions kick off the mytharc… Now that reminds me of season 2 and his deal which kicked off a multiyear apocalyptic arc. The idea of angels spilling out of heaven is so like demons escaping hell, yet quite different because there is no frame of reference like the Apocalypse. So that truly
intrigues me since I know he thinks outside the box when problem solving on the fly.
Dean is so often accused on the basis of his words, but let’s face it – Dean says many things just so, for fun or for what he believes to be fun, he teases and jokes, and in Sacrifice when he enumerates Sam’s sins he obviously didn’t intend to hurt his brother, not in his horrible condition. I love Dean, but he’s a child at heart (he has this in common with Castiel), and like Cas he sometimes is not the sharpest tool in the shop when sympathetic attitude is needed. Dean can be tactless being at the same time sensitive, just like a child, and he can be untimely playful and even silly at times which I find adorable because this is a part of his personality. I think when Sam gets irritated at his brother he nevertheless understands that Dean says what he says not out of spite. So to me, Sam is “maturing” faster than Dean because he’s more about speculation and research while Dean is more about emotion and
action(reaction). And I expect Sam to become more and more of a big brother, not only in size, to Dean. In the future I would like to see Sam treating Dean with due respect but with a grain of good-natured irony when Dean deserves it. I’d like to see more bantering, I’d like to see protective Sam, not the one who shut himself up from the outer world and just gloomily followed his brother’s steps. And then, again, I want the brothers find some legal source of financing – I can’t sleep while they are playing poker or conning out there risking being detained by the police!
Castiels cat and fazzie am absolutely LOVING your intelligent discussions. I don’t speculate myself but you bring so much more to these discussions, thanks so much
@ Castiel’s Cat
If you ‘like Dean as a dick’ and then have a go at each and every one of Sam’s mistakes and flaws then you have double standards.
I think this is in danger of becoming the Bitterness Thread part 2. If some Deangirls hate Sam that is their right. But some of us love both the brothers and it is upsetting to see either of them getting bashed.
I wonder if Ash helped Bobby and Ellen hook up in heaven? They were a cute couple in the Fate episode.
[quote][quote][quote]If one watches for the complete story rather than for evidence to exonerate one’s favorite character it often takes several episodes or maybe a season for everything to click into place. [/quote]
Wow, thank you, over several posts this is the ONE and only thing you have said that I can even begin to agree with. You might consider taking that advice yourself
perhaps? Just a thought.[/quote]
I mean watch the entire thing without dismissing anything as out of character or bad writing. Personally I find it very scary that so many people think that Sam isn’t responsible for his actions. Well since Dean wasn’t reduced to a blubbering mess over being forced to acknowledge the mistakes that he has made over several seasons in the finale I stand by my conclusions.
And since I frequent many websites I know that I am far from the only person that thinks Sam should take responsibility for his actions and their consequences, like Dean does, like Castiel does. And since Carver has discussed that next season all of the characters will face the consequences of their actions I imagine Sam will start to do just that.[/quote]
What actions are those then ? because I would not be as a Sam fan that concerned about the websites that I know think like that. You start from the premise that Sam does not take responsibilty and go from there and then try to claim that Castiel does and Dean does so they therefore and automatically better than Sam .
I dont think Sam needs to take responsibilty frankly I think he has done enough of that and he doesnt need redemption or needs to seek it or pay for his mistakes nor does he need keep paying for other peoples . He does need to have his wrongs thrown up at him or being blamed for actions that others did to him . What ever consquences come up in season 9 both brothers should face them as Dean stopped Sam seeing the trial through so no removing Dean from the fallout .
[quote]@ Castiel’s Cat
If you ‘like Dean as a dick’ and then have a go at each and every one of Sam’s mistakes and flaws then you have double standards.
I think this is in danger of becoming the Bitterness Thread part 2. If some Deangirls hate Sam that is their right. But some of us love both the brothers and it is upsetting to see either of them getting bashed.[/quote]
Of course there is double standards from some but that is a given now . Luckily I do not see Sam and certainly not Dean or Castiel the way they do .And I am not in the camp that thinks Sam has to take responsibilty for being born and everything else inbetween no more having Sam humble himself or define himself by his mistakes. It isnt expected of the other two and I do not want that for Sam anymore.
Both characters are awesome!
I think it is extremely arrogant to have a go at either of them. They had a deeply messed-up childhood and have been saving people at great personal cost pretty much ever since. I’d be more surprised if they WERE well-adjusted.
So they’re terrible at communicating with each other. Well yes, what do you expect when they never had stable relationships with teachers, childhood friends, neighbours etc?
Does anyone honestly think they would be a better person than Sam or Dean in those circumstances? I know I wouldn’t be.
Plus, we do have to remember that they’re fictional characters who have to do what the writers tell them. I have to remind myself sometimes 😀
@170
[quote]I’ve read around and saw various arguments both understanding and not so understanding then I go back to the episodes (both CF and T&F) and then….Sam tells Dean to make a choice after Martin’s death and all I get an emotional WTF feeling in the gut. [/quote] Why? It’s a direct throwback to Dean’s ultimatum to Sam in season 5. (And Dean walked out, he picked Benny. It was only after that we saw Sam and Dean came to an understanding.) At that time, from Sam’s POV, Dean was putting a monster over innocent people. He was taking the word of a vampire over that of a hunter. He was putting innocent lives at risk. Hell, he blamed Martin’s death at Benny’s hands on Martin, ‘He had it coming’. (Quite disturbing considering the line of work he himself is in.)
[quote]As much as I wasn’t routing for …..known about Benny if it wasn’t for Sam. [/quote] May I ask, why should Martin’s death mean more to Sam (than it does Dean, for example)? Do you hold Sam (and not Dean, who told Martin about Benny’s relationship with Elizabeth, Martin who made the decision to finish the hunt on his own and Benny, who actually killed Martin) directly responsible for Martin’s death? And why do you think it was Sam’s perception that was screwed? It’s just as possible that it was Dean’s.
[quote]I’ve tried but I can’t shake his motives involved him taking out some of his issues with Dean out on Benny, who even if it had turned out he was killing instead of the other vamp who was, wasn’t actually an active party to the Winchester infighting so didn’t deserve to be dragged into Sam and Dean’s issues. [/quote] Or Sam’s motives and actions were based on the fact that Benny was a monster and for years Sam was told, and it was shown to him that monsters ‘are what they are’, they cannot be trusted, they are killers. He learned the hard way. He took this on board and once he did, Dean changed his mind and then he expected Sam to just toe this new line that he drew for him. Benny was a monster who Sam knew nothing about, because Dean refused to tell him anything about him. Add to that the first time he met Benny was in the aftermath of a hunt that put them directly into a vampire nest so for Sam, Benny was responsible for putting Dean into a hugely dangerous situation. Once you take the above into account and add in Dean’s words when he came back from Purgatory in relation to how he’s not the same guy he was, and Sam’s actions toward Benny might be more understandable. Sam has trusted before, and he was wrong to do so (well, Dean told him he was wrong to do so). Perhaps this time, he decided to play it safe.
[quote]Now you can forgive that because Sam is supposed to be a complex character but I don’t think you should simply forget it either[/quote] Oh fazzie, there’s no fear it will ever be forgotten; it’s all that some people talk about. For heaven’s sake, eight years later and [i]Stanford[/i] is still being dragged up as a sign of Sam’s utter abandonment of Dean so I dare say those same people will get years of mileage out of this! And I doubt that Sam will ever be forgiven for his actions towards a vampire. However, it might make it easier to understand it.
@Castiel’s Cat
I hope that in season 9 I can agree with you and see Sam’s growth as a human take hold, because I think he sorely needs it. As I have said the I think a lot of my confusion with Sam could have been avoided with stronger flashbacks – even if they put the dog in it more to give us more of an idea that hitting it was the thing that stopped Sam going over the edge but they didn’t they focused on a relationship that just didn’t work even as a stop gap to get Sam to hold on.
It also would have helped with the not looking aspect, Sam holding onto the agreement because he couldn’t face that he was such a mess. It would have made it clearer that he was holding onto the idea that Benny was bad because he couldn’t accept he let Dean down and the vamp hadn’t and in the mean while earned Dean’s trust when he was scrambling to earn it again.
As for him not being responsible for his actions, there has been too much supernatural spin on everything Sam does and it is telling this season that he hasn’t coped well with the one time he can’t hold onto dealing with his choices haven’t been the result of him being manipulated in some fashion by the supernatural. Also that he ran back to that reasoning for his failings because that is what I felt he was hanging his suffering on the trials, he was suffering to make him pure, to clean out that taint. For me it is like he was saying that part of him is blaming his flaws on his demon taint – he has always been lesser, always unclean always failing because he had that taint. But I liked in the finale you could say that Sam realised that is BS because he had the part about Dean turning to an Angel and a VAMPIRE instead of him, the later not being clean in the slightest
As for Dean being a ‘dick’ as you put it, yes I loved that. It fit with Dean coming back from purgatory, it fit with a take no prisoners type of Dean and in a way it fit with a Dean that was moving past infantalising a Sam (well at least in the first half) who I think was pretty much use to Dean blowing up and not truly resolving things because he doesn’t want to hurt Sam because he doesn’t want to hurt his little brother. It was a more mature Dean and the fact that he was willing not to give Sam a simple pass in Torn and Frayed was great because Sam for me had crossed a line with Benny – you don’t take out your issues with your brother by putting someone else in the crosshairs and have no simply think it is a wash. And to me it was OOC behaviour because of what I had seen of Sam before especially with Kate being a few episodes before, which I think if they had done more with Sam being lost in FB would have made sense in terms other than a streak of jealousy being in there. I just wish there had been more fall out on Sam’s side because after that episode it seemed solely Dean and Benny were affected – Dean confessed to the dick move with the text with Charlie and Benny got left with no support in a world he felt alienated from to the point he felt he had no choice but to go back to purgatory. And Sam played a part in that and no five second acknowledgment in a car is going to white wash that considering Sam’s actions were all his own. He needs it, he needs to take some fall out and not be able to whitewash it and just accept it to truly learn and move on. He’s thirty for crying out loud he should be able to deal with his actions without having someone step infront of him and say it wasn’t all Sam’s fault something made him do it. The idea of them being hunters means it is too dangerous for Sam to still be given that out at his age.
Alice, this seems to be turning into repeated Sam-bashing. I’m not sure where the lines are, but thought I’d just mention it.
As for those who say about Dean’s words drove Sam to the brink of suicide, really Sam’s mental health is all down to a few words from Dean?
I got that Sam was hanging onto words this season, he always does but he also knows that Dean is action based always has been and killing Benny to get Sam out and Bobby out of purgatory was a huge sign to show that Sam was that important to him, unless Sam viewed it as Dean just wanting the trials to be completed.
Also it puts too much pressure on Dean – he can’t say anything in case Sam goes off on one? Is that healthy – no and it is dangerous one for both brothers.
Infact if that is the case and you have to have an equivalency between brothers then you have to ask Dean’s grunt speech came in part because of the way Sam treats him (even though this time I don’t think Dean’s self image is him being in an unhealthy place, he was more accepting of it). But even if it wasn’t having a simple speech from Sam telling Dean that he is a genius and the best hunter ever doesn’t actually help with Dean’s self image if you go back to looking at him funny everytime he does something a bit goofy on a hunt. But I guess the idea is that Sam didn’t think he needed to reinforce or elaborate on things with Dean once he had said things once but Dean could pass one comment about chaperoning with Cas and it becomes the straw that broke the camels back. But again is that really fair on either brother because how exactly is Dean meant to be responsible for how Sam takes his every word and how is Sam meant to get to a point where he can sort himself out when Dean is continually treating with kid gloves.
Did we see Sam running around falling over words when Dean was going through his depression – no because like it or not Sam isn’t responsible for Dean’s mental health, Dean is, he may need help with it but he is the one responsible for it and no magic wand from Sam would have helped Dean he had to hit his own rock bottom to climb out of it.
@Tim the Enchantor
[quote]As much as I wasn’t routing for …..known about Benny if it wasn’t for Sam.
May I ask, why should Martin’s death mean more to Sam (than it does Dean, for example)? Do you hold Sam (and not Dean, who told Martin about Benny’s relationship with Elizabeth, Martin who made the decision to finish the hunt on his own and Benny, who actually killed Martin) directly responsible for Martin’s death? And why do you think it was Sam’s perception that was screwed? It’s just as possible that it was Dean’s.[/quote]
No I don’t hold Sam directly responsible for Martin’s death but seeing how Sam was the one who is responsible for introducing the man to the situation when he knew he was straight out of a mental hospital I would expect a bit more of a response than Dean especially as he was the one who viewed Benny as possibly dangerous. Dean at least warned Martin that Benny would kill him if he went up against him, Sam no the text message came higher on his agenda – that is wrong, a text message that freaks you out should not come higher in the list of your priorities than the dead body of a man introduced into a possibly dangerous situation and who you have known from childhood.
If the text message rates higher then Sam is either mentally ill himself or is becoming callous and way too absorbed in his own idea of normal and shouldn’t be hunting as his partner can’t exactly trust him to have their back. And can be seen in part to reflect the choice that Dean gave him where he said in or out because in between gets you dead – he didn’t just mean it would get Sam dead it would get everyone dead because Martin when Sam was with him was depending on Sam to back him up.
As for seeing Sam’s perception being screwed? Again I ask what exactly is it about Benny himself that makes him different that Kate, Amy and Lenore all monsters he let go after, two of which he had witnessed killing granted for their own reasons but they had killed – the only thing is Dean’s actions and that Benny himself had not asked Sam face to face for that second chance.
Which means that it can be viewed that Benny himself has fallen into Sam and Dean’s issues not Sam’s issues with monsters. But that ended up with one dead, one traumatized and one on the edge none of which were Sam and Dean themselves.
As for Dean blaming Martin for Martin’s death – well seeing how the person telling him the events that lead up to it was the innocent woman who Martin had held hostage I’m thinking that he is going to see it as Martin was out of line when he got his throat ripped out.
But those all are human consequences to human actions and if Carver can shape the consequences of those into giving us a maturer human set of brothers then great
@Fazzie
I imagine Sam DOES have mental health issues. A lot of people do, even without having spent 150+ years in a cage with Lucifer.
The fact that he keeps going regardless just makes me admire him all the more. Even if he did implode and had to hide for a year to recover.
(BTW, I’m not saying Dean has it any easier)
@205
Sam was the man who introduced Martin into the situation by asking him to track, not kill, Benny. If what Dean was true then Martin would not be in any danger. He’d be able to contribute to the hunting community while not being in any danger. If what Dean said was not true then Martin knew to contact Sam and Dean (which is what he did). It also showed that Sam did not consider Martin a pariah simply because he had spent time in a mental hospital (something both Sam and Dean also did).
The text message was high on Sam’s list of priorities because it showed to Sam (a) just what Dean would do in order to get what he wants (b) that there is nothing he won’t do to protect those he feels loyal to. He said this later in relation to Castiel, that if they were not friends he would have killed him by now and (c) just how lacking in empathy Dean was now, and just how little he thought of Sam, that he wouldn’t even consider the effect sending the text would have.
One of the last things that Sam told Martin to do was to ‘follow his lead’. Sam left, so theoretically Martin should have ‘followed his lead’ by also leaving. Instead, when Dean rang Martin to tell him that Benny was in the wind, Martin decided to do what he could in order to finish the hunt; like any hunter would.
However, you bring up an interesting comment in relation to trust. You’ve gone on and on about how Sam can’t be trusted, but why should Dean be trusted? What is it about Dean’s actions this season, and seasons past, that make him a person worthy of trust?
Aside from Kate, Amy and Lenore were both killed because they were monsters. You mentioned killing for their own reasons, Benny killed for his own reasons (identical reasons to Amy, he killed for ‘family’), and he was given a walk for it. And no, Benny had not asked Sam face to face because Dean did whatever he could to keep them from meeting face to face. Why would he do that if he trusted Benny was on the up and up?
[quote]Which means that it can be viewed that Benny himself has fallen into Sam and Dean’s issues not Sam’s issues with monsters. But that ended up with one dead, one traumatized and one on the edge none of which were Sam and Dean themselves. [/quote] If that is the case then it is an almost identical situation to Amy. She fell into Sam and Dean’s issues; Dean’s depression, his feelings of worthlessness, the fact that he didn’t think Sam and/or his judgment could be trusted. That also ended up with one dead, one traumatised (motherless and unable to fend for himself) and one on the edge (when a Leviathan told him the truth). I don’t recall Dean acknowledging any responsibility for that, instead putting the blame for his actions on Sam.
I can’t understand why you think that Benny was justified in ripping Martin’s throat, and this was the only option. Why didn’t he disarm him?
In relation to ‘human consequences to human actions’, that is very true. However, it is true in relation to [i]both[/i] brothers, not just Sam (who both you and Castiel’s Cat have focused solely on). Dean has got a lot of explaining to do, he’s got a lot to atone for, a lot of redemption to get and a hell of a lot of responsibility to accept. Perhaps season 9 will see Dean ‘maturing’ in that sense.
@ Mazanita C
Yes agree that Sam has been through a lot which would have affected more than just having hallucinations and I wish the FB had reflected more of that.
And it is great he has kept moving but by the same token it doesn’t lessen what his actions cause and it would give him a human edge if those affects aren’t whitewashed in anyway and he has to be seen for them to be fully resolved because by continually giving him the supernatural pass it doesn’t. It gives Dean a reason to hold onto grudges, it gives Sam a reason to hang onto his flaws and try to explain them because of a taint in his blood which at the end of the day isn’t the thing controlling his choices.
He wasn’t able to deal with his actions when soulless even though he wanted to in the way he wanted to because of a supernatural reason – Dean going it wasn’t your fault and the wall. It kind of stunts Sam and prevents him from having as big a character arc that other characters get – Cas screws up and does his penance and still has to deal with Dean’s anger when he goes off on his own. But somehow it stalls for Sam – he gives a reason like in fallen idols and Dean just caves and then three years later people complain that Dean is still holding a grudge. But he is holding a grudge for the human reason the two were never fully able to work through it and that means Sam is holding onto it too.
@ Fazzie
I can’t say I’ve been too impressed by the characterisation of either Sam or Dean in Seasons 6-8 so I’m not going to argue there.
However, Sam in Season 5 Fallen Idols was making a perfectly valid point. He’d already admitted fault in Episodes 1, 2 and 3. Dean simply didn’t let him apologise at length and cover every way in which he had failed Dean, Bobby and the world. In Good God Y’all he even said “I can’t blame the blood or Ruby or…anything. The problem’s me”.
Stating that the relationship between the two brothers ALSO had to change was perfectly reasonable. It was highlighting a potential problem and trying to stop it becoming a real issue. Maybe the writers didn’t word it very well, but it was a fair point.
@ Tim
When Dean killed Amy, she had killed he didn’t introduce anyone into the situation to make her kill, Sam introduced Martin into that situation with Benny and Martin then took it upon himself to go after Benny, terrorise an innocent and got himself killed to get the job done when it was obvious to everyone he was in no fit state to do so and Sam not Dean had brought him placed him there so I would expect something more of a response from Sam and definitely not go to Dean ‘its me or Benny’.
As for Amy getting into the middle of Sam and Dean’s issues – Amy’s death caused issues it was not started by them. Dean didn’t know Amy existed until Sam took off he didn’t put a tail on her the real trust issues started after Amy’s death not before it like with Benny.
Benny and Amy are two different situations so people should stop equating them, Dean’s depression didn’t cause him to stew over Amy and pick on Sam because of it prior to her killing because he didn’t know she existed. Sam and Dean with regard to Benny – there were trust issues raised by Dean keeping Benny a secret but again that is on Dean not Benny. The person Benny killed was a hunter introduced into the situation specifically to get him not someone stalked to get a body part to feed a child – one was in defence of himself and another in real present danger and the other is a misguided reasoning to help someone else who was ill.
As for Dean continually keeping Benny a secret when exactly after Sam learned of Benny did we hear Dean go ‘No Sam you can’t go talk to him to get to know him?’ because I didn’t, sure Dean didn’t volunteer a meeting but Sam didn’t ask either and Sam is old enough to open his mouth in that regard. But again not Benny’s fault that is on Sam and Dean.
But none of that tells me why Benny himself is different than the other monsters that Sam gave a second chance too?
As for Sam’s priorities about the text showing Dean was not to be trusted again I say three words with regard to what I think that should have taken priority – BODY ON THE FLOOR!
As for Dean, yes he trusted few and far between at that point – Benny he was conflicted about but had earned his trust through his time in purgatory and Sam the person he had most trust in hadn’t looked for him, that is going to knock his trust as is going with Martin while cuffing him to a radiator.
But Sam said it himself – it wasn’t just Sam, Dean didn’t trust, he didn’t trust anyone but himself and from his time in purgatory I got why. It doesn’t mean preplanning the text wasn’t cruel but considering the circumstances he used it for I guess he was planning for such and event because they had gotten past the point of planning. It also shows that in some ways especially at that point Dean knows Sam better than Sam knows Dean because all he could throw back in Dean’s face when the grudge match happened in SC was Benny whereas Dean had a list and one of them was that there was always a girl. Rightly or wrongly Dean knew what button to press to make Sam run whereas Sam still couldn’t see why Dean would trust a vampire even when told Benny had Dean’s back in purgatory and that must make Sam smart too.
This in regard to something Percyowner said and I cannot find at all but it shows up in my email in box.
She said: In the end, because the premise of the show is the brothers fighting the supernatural, Dean will get exactly what he wants, Sam in hunting for the rest of his life no matter how miserable it makes Sam. The MOL may give Sam a way to reconcile his life, but it is still not what he wants. As the show is set up, Sam can never have the life he wants, and that makes me sad.
My question is this: Why are there only two options? Sam either has to have normal (with Ameiila) or he has to hunt with Dean. Why can’t Sam choose secret option #3? Since the show is supposed to be about hunting why can’t Sam simply choose Hunting…just not with Dean?
And to fulfil tyat ‘all about the brothers thing’ Sam and Dean can team up to do the mytharc episodes. And Sam while out hunting can make his own friends and in the process he also learns to trust himself, his abilties and his own insticts…all simnply by going back to the beginning .. Saving people…hunting things.
@ Manzanite C
Agree the characterisation of both brother’s has kind of stalled in the past couple of seasons and hopefully I can get to a place where Castiel’s Cat is and see this one as a transitional one to a better more human place.
But with regard to your comment about Good God y’all that speech that Sam had about it being him also had him admitting he missed the feeling of where he was on blood, that you could see how hurt he was when Dean agreed with him that he was in no shape to hunt and he was expecting a fight from Dean about him being in no shape to hunt.
See I’m a both a younger and older sibling and well…I took that as Sam confessing and him hoping Dean would make it all better by going no you are wrong and it will be all okay with us. Not having Dean agree and letting Sam walk.
Dean in the end told Sam when he wanted back in at the beginning he wanted in for the wrong reasons but he let Sam come back to him because they kept each other human. Sure Sam apologised but also in Fallen Idols as much as Sam’s reasoning made sense to him it did again put some of the blame on Dean even with the whole ‘that is on me’ Dean had to take in what Sam said even with the ‘but I’m not excusing it’
In a way I think that also keeps Sam in a place where he can hold onto thinking he is lesser than others – if he can externalise his reasoning in that manner which involves someone else doing something that leads to his actions it means he stops himself from changing while other people do, especially if a supernatural spin is put on it. Dean backed off and became a bit less controlling in season 5, not that Sam proved that Dean could lessen his control a la season 3 when they were more balanced as a team but because Sam said it played a part in his reasoning when he went off with Ruby. In season 6 Dean controlled and changed Sam not so much from learning what little soulless him did, Dean was depressed in season 7 but still helped with Sam’s madness whereas Sam’s help with Dean’s issues were harder to pin down.
I don’t think I’m explaining it too well but I am trying. As I said I hope to get to the part where Castiel’s Cat can get to and hope that whatever the secret is in season 8 it doesn’t mean Sam goes back to doing something then big supernatural gesture and he can go well I’m all clean now because he is still the same person who made the choices in the first place and it would be good to see him grow from it.
[quote]@ Mazanita C
Yes agree that Sam has been through a lot which would have affected more than just having hallucinations and I wish the FB had reflected more of that.
And it is great he has kept moving but by the same token it doesn’t lessen what his actions cause and it would give him a human edge if those affects aren’t whitewashed in anyway and he has to be seen for them to be fully resolved because by continually giving him the supernatural pass it doesn’t. It gives Dean a reason to hold onto grudges, it gives Sam a reason to hang onto his flaws and try to explain them because of a taint in his blood which at the end of the day isn’t the thing controlling his choices.
He wasn’t able to deal with his actions when soulless even though he wanted to in the way he wanted to because of a supernatural reason – Dean going it wasn’t your fault and the wall. It kind of stunts Sam and prevents him from having as big a character arc that other characters get – Cas screws up and does his penance and still has to deal with Dean’s anger when he goes off on his own. But somehow it stalls for Sam – he gives a reason like in fallen idols and Dean just caves and then three years later people complain that Dean is still holding a grudge. But he is holding a grudge for the human reason the two were never fully able to work through it and that means Sam is holding onto it too.[/quote]
Sam had a genuine point in Fallen Idols .Dean did not cave he wasnt made to agree , he knew Sam had a point even if the writing was less than stellar . People have got so caught up in What Sam said and decided to see it has blame that the fact there was a real point in what Sam stated has got lost. And for the record I supported Sam at the time and still do.
Soulless Sam was a unique situation and although it was typical Sam to feel he had to make up for it I never felt he had too .The wall was something done to Sam has being Soulless was so I dont see that has ‘whitewashing Sam’ as for Dean’s anger Sam has faced that it at times Sam is the one that should of got angry sometimes IMO. It was a shame the writers felt the need to have Dean add Soulless Sam to the list of
Sam’s seen crimes .
Context is not always whitewashing otherwise Castiel’s actions should be seen as the same after all did he not have Naomi’s mind control as a context to his actions last season? .
@ Sharon
As I said the addition of Sam having a supernatural element to his actions previous to this season stops them being fully addressed, stops the boys actually working through their respective issues properly and more often than not when it comes to personality issues it is Dean that is seen to back down rather than Sam. With Sam in fallen idols Sam may have been making a valid point, however if you are standing getting told that it is you that changes not the person that is making the point, Part of my point was it was Dean that lessened off on Sam’s words not that Sam exactly showed him he could by his actions – Dean changed more obviously than Sam did. To let Sam jump Dean had to obviously change not the root of Sam’s personality, soulless Sam, Sam wanted to make up for Soulless Sam’s actions but was prevented from doing so by the wall ,being told it was not him and then madness. Dean changed though personality wise, he spiraled into depression.
My point is Sam feels lesser and the taint of his blood but his actions always having a supernatural taint and that his hand is forced into it then everyone changing around him keeps him there to an extent so he is still going to feel lesser and tainted when they grow and he kind of stays in the same rut.
As for Dean listing Sam’s ‘crimes’ as you put it well they aren’t good at working them through but Sam being given a supernatural past or gesture to wipe a slate clean doesn’t help. It stops both him and Dean dealing with the human side of working through grudges which we saw this season and in a lot of ways prevents Sam from growing as a human character IMO.
And I think the writers know this too seeing they had Sam go on about being impure and how he must have always known and the trials would make him clean. But then in the finale they have him go on about how it made him feel when Dean didn’t turn to him but an angel and a vampire – Sam knows the supernatural taint isn’t the only thing that is stopping Dean from trusting him but he has held onto it as being a reason for being lesser and not as good as the others at the same time while knowing it is BS.
@Sharon
Context should also not lessen consequence and the ability to learn from ones actions for all involved there has to be a balance for both that feels in some cases lacking.
That is what a lot of both brother fans and Dean fans are saying.
[quote]@Sharon
Context should also not lessen consequence and the ability to learn from ones actions for all involved there has to be a balance for both that feels in some cases lacking.
That is what a lot of both brother fans and Dean fans are saying.[/quote]
So you are saying that while both Dean and Castiel have learnt Sam has not and that putting Sam’s actions using context like Demon blood and the Wall are whitewashing am I wrong?.
I am all for balance when it comes to context and how a characters actions are seen and not labelled ‘whitewashing’ but when it seems to be aimed at one then it is hard to approve of balance.
I know this is a speculate thread, and therefore fairly free form, but I believe this discussion has gone far, far from the original intent.
There is a separate bitterness thread if you guys want to continue to discuss all the various and sundry ways Sam (and/or Dean) has (have) failed to live up to your expectations.
I’m not asking you to stop your discussion, just to move it to a spot that is (imo) more appropriate to it.
Thanks. 🙂
Purely speculating here, I’m wondering how they’ll bring Bobby back from heaven in a way that doesn’t open the door to bringing back all the other old faces…. Ellen, Jo, Ash, etc etc etc….. Even if he remains a spectre, shouldn’t they also be able to then manifest? Unless whatever they do is specifically for Bobby. A summoning?
@210 I had a reply made out, and then a friend basically pointed out how futile this type of discussion is. It basically creates a forum for those who [i]want[/i] to dump on a character (Sam or Dean), [i]to[/i] dump on a character. It’s rarely about getting insight to aid understanding. And she’s dead right (I need to be reminded of that every once in a while). All this has been discussed, time and again, on this site and elsewhere and I think I’m loathe to go into it again.
I started asked myself why I was replying and it was, as she said ‘So that the rest of the ‘audience’ doesn’t start believing it’. And she’s dead right (again. Grrrrr.). But hey, if they do, so be it. (Personally, I don’t believe they will, or have, because not only do I think minds can’t be swayed that easily but also because very few viewers are as extreme in their views as some commenter’s on here indicate. Add to that I think the audience knows that if any character was as bad and as persistently wrong as some constantly make Sam out to be then he would not have a role on the show. He’d either have been written off or written way back, such would be his unpopularity. And he hasn’t been, so that has to tell us something!)
Having thought about it, I think I’d rather they hate on a character than say nothing about a character because at least then that character is inspiring passionate responses and debate, he or she is not tepid and forgettable. And like or dislike Sam, considering the amount of discussion that has been centred around him this season (and in seasons past), he’s certainly not forgettable! I dare say the writers, and even JP, are perfectly happy with that.
Either way fazzie, you might enjoy what you see in season 9. Perhaps you’ll find a Sam there that is much more agreeable for you, whatever kind of a Sam that might be!
@217. It’s possible that he might not return at all. He might simply be in Sam or Dean’s head. I know there was a lot of talk about Jim Beaver and his role in some film (or something) so it’s hard to see how he’d find the time to commit wholesale to SPN. And if they did get him back then odds are he’d be staying in Motel Bunker so he would need to be shown a lot. (Speculation, because it’s a speculation thread, Sam and Dean will be building an extension to the MoL bunkers in season 9!)
@ Fazzie
If I’ve understood you correctly, we interpret Sam’s reactions differently which is fair enough
I don’t think Sam was hurt so much as surprised at the end of Good God Y’all. He was determined to leave anyway but was expecting to have to fight with Dean about it. Dean gets kudos from me for recognising Sam needed time out.
However, in Fallen Idols Sam is absolutely NOT placing the blame for what he’s done on Dean. He clearly says “No, it’s my fault”. What he IS trying to do is make the relationship work better in the future.
Sam is trying to explain to Dean that the relationship needs to change and that being treated like a little brother was ONE factor contributing to his behaviour in Season 4.
However, he’s also acknowledging that his behaviour is still all his own fault because he should have tackled this relationship issue BEFORE he went off with Ruby.
And after that I’m afraid I totally lose the thread of your argument
[quote]So you are saying that while both Dean and Castiel have learnt Sam has not and that putting Sam’s actions using context like Demon blood and the Wall are whitewashing am I wrong?.[/quote]
Yes and no – Sam hasn’t used the experiences to grow as much Cas and Dean. They have had bigger personality changes and let go of other people’s outside interference causing them more readily than Sam does. Cas was still trying to do penance for his actions after doing penance in purgatory but at no point since he blew up from the Levi’s did he say well I joined up with Crowley because I felt Raphael gave me little choice. You don’t have Dean going I got off the rack and started torturing and broke the first seal because I made a deal that was the only way to bring Sam back. But we have had Sam go, I went with Ruby because it made me feel more powerful than I did when I was with you Dean. I didn’t look because we both made an agreement and I was alone and in a mess so decided to honour it. You kept me in the dark about Benny so I got suspicious and sent Martin to look .
That is the difference – Sam’s points maybe valid but there is also something kind of…immature about them too and they prevent everyone dealing with them properly. By shoving in a deflecting, admittedly true, point it means that Sam is also saying his actions were the only ones available to him when he made those choices and they weren’t and he knows that and needs to be seen dealing with it other than in a grand sweeping gesture or supernatural incidence getting in the way because it stops Sam growing as a human character and means he never fully gets to a point where he can address his flaws.
It stops the movement of the story and keeps Sam in a box in some ways because how can he have a semi normal relationship or friends of his own when he hasn’t really dealt with the baggage he is carrying around in an adult manner?
@st50
Agreed st50, that is enough.
Dean rocks! Sam rocks! Team Free Will rocks!
That is all
@st50
That is fine we, I can’t speak for Castiel’s Cat but on my part I can say it isn’t exactly bitterness.
We did speculate on bringing Benny back and Sam’s growth, she’s more hopeful than me due to the spoilers put out so far. But I would love to see a more human side to Sam as I think it would open him up and give him a better place to make his own friends which he needs. I hope get to her place but am a little too cautious to do so.
Then we kind of got pile drived by those convinced we were simply bashing Sam, that Dean is callous because of the text, which meant a lot of the twoing and frowing trying to defend points using evidence from other seasons.
It kind of got in my way of speculating anything.
@ Manzanita C
I understand fully why you are losing the thread of my argument because I’m losing the thread of it too because I’m getting it from all sides it feels like I am repeating myself over and over and over again to the point where spelling, sentence structure and grammar have long taken a hike.
What I would like to see in season 9 is if Benny is brought back they don’t ruin him or just bring him back to please fans, I’d like to see a Sam that builds on the human side that was expressed in the finale and accepts and understands all his actions in season 8. The ways the flaws he’s not dealt with just like Dean’s supposed grudges have affected his relationships with the others around him. But what with the secret spoiler I’m not 100% hopeful for that which is possibly Bobby coming back and secretly using his what power he had in his soul to heal Sam and Dean knowing and keeping it a secret because Bobby asked him too.
[quote]@217. It’s possible that he might not return at all. He might simply be in Sam or Dean’s head. I know there was a lot of talk about Jim Beaver and his role in some film (or something) so it’s hard to see how he’d find the time to commit wholesale to SPN. And if they did get him back then odds are he’d be staying in Motel Bunker so he would need to be shown a lot. (Speculation, because it’s a speculation thread, Sam and Dean will be building an extension to the MoL bunkers in season 9!)[/quote]
I agree, I think Bobby will be a short term, one episode kind of story.
A GARAGE for Baby!!
@fazzie – While I think that’s purely semantics (would it help if it was named the “discontent” article? I appreciate how we all get wrapped up in the discussion… And thanks for heading back into speculation….
@ st50 I was all for speculating and giving my reasons why I was going in that direction when others deemed my views not in keeping with theirs.
I have said again and again I want Sam to be more human in season 9, why I thought this and how it tied back to his actions with Benny and why I wasn’t hopeful and was continually asked to justify my answers which I did. You can take it as discontent as you wish but I am saying what I wish to see in season 9,
I feel understanding 8 is critical to seeing where the story is going. I disagree that Sam was OoC.we won’t see more PoV or a supernatural explanation for Sam.I gave my take as explanation. They are trying to make the show better and more logical by addressing believable human psychology. People that identify strongly with Dean, including Dean, understand very well that there was a fundamental imbalance in the relationship because Dean felt too much guilt, and Sam not enough. So the writers used season 8 to address old issues and set everything up for a brave new world. They hammered Sam’s humanity and focused on his bad choices.Sam is not Is bad person. The character was poorly serviced by non-stop supernatural storylines, and a complete fail in the hero’s arc because of choices made in 6-7. He makes bad decisions when he is emotional. Well now we and Dean understand where a lot of this is coming from. If you think Sam is justified in everything he did and shouldn’t apologize for anything or to anyone because he suffered in the pit… nothing I say made sense, because you do not care about any other character as a person. You do not care about Benny’s feelings, or Dean’s or Martin’s. You want Benny to go away because he’ s nothing more than a plot device. Dean is only a big brother and should caretake or take Sam’s ribbing, and maybe he gets a burger or pie. You don’t care about the profound bond or the perfection of Dean’s friendship with Benny because they take away from Dean caring for Sam. Well a show just about Sam and his dutiful brother was done; it’s called s 7, a lowpoint for the show, and Dean was depressed.
Sam is not going to be besties with Cas or Benny because he’s jealous of them, and that emotional garbage takes a while to work through. They might bond over trying to save Dean, but They’re not going to have a close relationship because of their histories.
I am sorry if you think it’s unfair that Sam was forced to admit that he has made mistakes, whereas Dean lost the crippling guilt, made friends, and discovered his self-worth. Different issues were stagnating the character. I think they are turning him into a leader and warrior supreme. I also think that whatever happens next, he may go dark/too far in some way. If that happens he will need his posse beside him to pull him back to earth.
I don’t understand this tit for tat mentality where Sam needs to have everything Dean has.They are very different characters and it’s never going to happen. I don’t understand this need to believe that Sam is never wrong. The writers made it clear that Benny wasn’t Ruby or Amy. They made it clear that mommy Amy was killing humans for food. They made it clear that Sam wasn’t thinking clearly because of hallucinations. My God he left his brother with a compound fracture when leviathans were hunting them!
They also took extraordinary pains to show us that Benny was truly good, and that Sam’s reaction was atypical for him and visibly rooted in strong emotions. They even wrote FaG for emphasis… Martin was unstable. Vampires are people too; let them live if they aren’t killing. Dean is right and those kids are better off because they listened to him.
Next season is character development, consequences and every flavor of angel with a bit of Abaddon angst thrown in (hopefully with abandon!). They are clearly moving towards an ensemble feel for the show which is why Castiel is now a regular and Crowley has been set up for his own story. Spoiler alert!: Crowley is not there to make Sam look good or prop him up as hero. He’s worthy of his own story that doesn’t center around Sam. Same for Castiel, Benny, DEAN. This means that anyone of them can be mean to Sam This means they can go off and do things without Sam. This means that maybe they will be right about something and Sam wrong, or vice versa. This means that they will have desires, feelings that have nothing to do with Sam. Or that they might have feelings for Sam other than love, filial duty and and an unnatural selfless desire to put Sam’s needs before their own on a daily basis.
There are going to be fans that like anyone or all of the characters. These fans will watch the show with a different filter and form different opinions. If they think Sam owes someone an apology or is being given a redemption arc to address a long-time pattern of behavior that has hurt another character, it is not Sam bashing. It’s actually a valid arguable opinion. It’s actually rooted in canon because Dean specifically mentioned a series of events that hurt him.
for those of you you have problems with the brothers relationsship I would suggest to click on the WFB writers link at the top and check out the articles of a previous writer. Her name is Jasminka. A professional psycologist and she had lots of articles about the brothers relationship
@Castiels Cat
Dean going dark would be interesting especially in the dynamic that so many look as well as us to him to be their moral centre of the show including us.
It would also
a) it would give Dean an actual purpose on his own outside guilt laden cheerleader while providing a reason for Cas and Sam to actually interact rather being the reason the two are in the same room.
b) it would push the buttons of so many who are changing (Sam) and adapting (Cas) because at that point I can see their dependency on Dean running around after them being more important than ever. Especially seeing that the spoilers coming out have Dean has a pigeon, an ex girlfriend and keeping a secret from Sam compared to Sam has secret cures him, changing, curing demons and Cas has adapting to humanity (two independent multiepisode storyline arcs for Sam and Cas and Dean’s multiepisode arc being Sam based)
c) it would give the show a chance to really show that Sam and Cas can reciprocate with regard to the levels of responsibility that Dean feels for them. Also it would show that the show is actually joined up enough to allow Cas and Sam enough that their storylines could interact and don’t require Dean to be the glue to make the two interact.
Also as you said it could actually build character for both Sam and Cas in a human sense because if Dean goes Dark it would be on a human level and not needing supernatural involvement.to bring him back something neither exactly has any real experience in doing.
Maybe Sam and Dean could go undercover in the military and wear uniforms for the whole episode…
Shallow? Me?
You know I was going to try to respond to CastielsCat but then I realized that there was actually know way to respond. Her/his view of the show is so vastly different than mine I wouldn’t know where to begin. Again I have to reiterate, do you honestly believe that the writers, directors, producers, showrunners, actors and creator actually think that you are supposed to view the characters like that? What drew most of us to the show was the chemistry between Sam/Jared and Dean/Jensen. EK always knew that Sam was going to have the Supernatural story and that Dean was going to be the moral center. We were all supposed to identify with Dean because of his humanity. We were supposed to agonize with him when his beloved brother died or went off the rails. We were supposed to cheer for him when he never gave up on his family and hung on tooth and nail when everything imploded around him. By the same token we were supposed to have empathy for Sam. The fact that his own mother sealed his fate, that demons manipulated him from the time he was 6 months old, that he made mistakes and tried to atone for them by throwing himself into the cage to be tortured for all eternity. I think that Ek’s intent was that that selfless act was Sam’s redemption. I honestly don’t believe that either brother is supposed to be seen as a self centered jerk.
Now for what I would like to see in S9. I would like to see Sam finally cleaned of db. I would like to see Dean kick major ass. I would like to see Castiel as hopefully something other than comic relief. I really can’t imagine where his story is going to go. I hope that Bobby’s return is epic. I hope this show goes on forever.
Cheryl42… it’s a show about horror that takes the characters to new emotional lows every season. it is not a love story for the ages. There is no question that they love each other. However they are very different people. Very clearly a theme for Dean this season was his disappointment in Sam which has been building for seasons. Benny was not a plot device to create a rift. The rift was there and for Dean finding this perfect brother magnified issues with his real brother. He has a right to be mad and even then he will still save Sam and save Cas because they are part of his family and he doesn’t leave a man behind.
Sam did leave a man behind, several. Instead of apologizing for hurting his brother, he dug in his heels and lashed out at Dean and Benny to prove that neither was so perfect. He’s done similar things before. This little brother who was left out of the family business by John to protect him felt left out, and lashed out sewing the seeds of issues with both Dean and John. His powerful pride causes him to fall in big ways (Ruby) and small ways (lashing out at Dean). In a show where most angels are dicks do you really expect our heroes to be perfect. To err is human…
Why do you think the text was such a powerful moment. it symbolizes the rift between the brothers. When Dean sent that he signaled that he didn’t view Sam as being in his team. Benny was in and Sam was out.
Have you seen Being Human USA. The second season has everyone making big mistakes which helps them evolve as a character.
So yeah, Dean wasn’t just being mean. His anger and hurt was valid. This is why Sam confessed all the times that he’s let Dean down. Sam’s big plot was to admit this to himself and Dean and God. Nobody is perfect on this show.
@cheryl42
I think most people on this site empathise with both Sam & Dean and all the trouble and sacrifice they’ve been through.
I’d like to see Sam cleaned of the demon blood too. I’ve no problem with Castiel being humorous in the adorable and more subtle ways of Seasons 4 & 5 but less slapstick would be good 🙂
Just one query though. Is Dean supposed to be the moral centre, or the human centre? I just ask because he can be pretty ruthless and uncompromising when it comes to protecting his family and innocent people. That’s not a criticism though – Dean kicks-ass!
I appreciate [b]Castiel’s Cat[/b] that you view the show differently but as much has I dont think Dean covered himself in glory with that text if that was the reason he sent it then Sam should of stayed with Amelia or if not with her moved on .
And Dean is not the only brother with valid reasons for either feeling the way they do or being hurt. I am not sure where being left out of the family business comes from ? Sam certainly left for college but simply because he did not want to hunt and John rejected him and Dean held onto a grudge because the pair decided that it was a betrayal of them . I am not sure why Sam wanting something different as become so sick and so twisted however it seems it has.
I see it this way that in these relationships Dean is not the only one that matters that it is not just Dean’s brother relationship and that Dean himself easily can make mistakes and decision in hindsight perhaps would not of made . As not one of those that put sainthood on Benny before I could blink I never had much issue with Sam not trusting Benny as others seem to of done . Sending that text IMO had very little to do with team Benny or team Sam has Dean clearly stated where he stands in that department in the finale .
I think Sam’s confession of how many times he has let Dean down was not meant to signal that Sam must go on confessing and atoning but just merely where Sam’s head was emotionally at that time. Someone who was worn down ,
And the first thing I agree with you is no nobody is perfect and that includes Sam.
@cheryl42 and @Manzanita C- I have broken my resolve to avoid this particular ongoing discussion to say that my views of the show and it’s main characters are more in line with what you two have said. I further agree that Dean is meant to be more of a human center than a moral center for the show. Even Dean would snort at the idea of him being a moral center IMO. I am very a devoted fan of Dean and I very much disagree with the characterization of Sam AND Dean made by some of the “Deangirls” here. And being said as if all Dean fans have the same opinion. They do not represent me and many of the other fans of Dean here.
I was referring to the fact that John and Dean hid the truth from Sam for years as a child to protect him. My family dynamic was similar. Although only a little older than my brother my parents treated me as a little adult and relied on me in ways that excluded my brother. He noticed it and always felt left out. like he was not part of the family and not as good as me. I see this reaction in Sam too.
I guess it doesn’t matter how season 8 is interpreted since it is transitional and the point was to move characters to a better place.
That’s a very interesting question about Dean and is exactly what I am asking myself. I suspect that he eill be crossing that line next season. He is harder and more goal oriented since Purgatory, almost with a military mindset- acceptable losses and all that. Both Henry and Benny are dead because of Dean’s goals. He’s becoming pretty grey, especially when Sam’s life hangs in the balance.
I confess that I have little sympathy for Sam at this point. I had no issue with him not looking. I thought it was realistic for him to fall apart after everything that happened. I found his behavior after Dean returned was problematic and believe we were supposed to. The premier laid it out for me through Dean, Kevin’s attitude and Amelia’s mocking Sam for thinking what little he did was enough and made him a big hero. Yes Sam’s actions make sense through a human lens but not through the heroic lens of this show and certainly not to Dean. Quite simply the worldview of this show makes Sam’s behavior wrong. All season we saw a series of gangly misfits , who were not born into two hunting dynasties and trained from a young age , who answered the call to become heroes and fight the good fight. Comical Garth stepped up to fill Bobby’s shows; he chose to answer his ohones and Bobby’s phones. Aaron, Charlie both ran and realized that they could and should take a stand. Krissy et al. lost their families and it motivated them to fight. They chose these MotW episodes to strengthen the themes of the season. Why do you think that Sam spent a lot of time unconscious or tied to a chair this season. Because he was not in the game.
I predict that Sam will choose to hunt now and will do so through his MOL legacy. I think he will evolve to be happy, fulfilled and confident. I hope that his touted changes involve his evolution into a fully engaged partner in their family businesses and a BDH in his own image because it means something to him and not because he thinks he has to.
I also think Dean wasn’t left out last season and won’t be in 9. Believe me this is a unique perspective for a Dean fan but one I and a few others believe. It takes careful viewing of the whole season and includes tge belief that Sam doing the trials was the plot device to remove the demon taint, force him to admit his mistakes through confession, and also to explain his motivation and mindset to Dean and unsympathetic viewers. For me it worked. I felt sympathy and believe that I understand why he acted the way he did throughout the show. For me this is huge. I have not been able to rewatch the series because I find his behavior offensive, as early as Bugs when he harangues Dean over being the good little soldier. I look forward to rewatching soon.
Ok well while I believe Sam and Dean behaved like siblings with the issues they have from the start you are free to see Sam’s behaviour as offensive . Although watching from the begining you are well aware of what Sam has been dealing with and has faced and that Dean himself could be free in his thoughts but ok I hope you enjoy the rewatch’s .
People see different things in the characters. I think Carver is trying to repair things and get beyond these old issues which still resonated with the brothers and fans. It’s great people are passionate but I think fans are too split by theit passions and this tit for tat mentallty… complaints about storylines, etc. which syarted in 5 over changes in storylines made after renewal. Cutting Dean out of the mytharc and the perennial something is wrong with Sam stories did the show no favors.
When I say moral center what I mean is that the other main characters tend to look to Dean for the right and the wrong in a given situation. Dean is usually right. Whenever one of his family screws up it is because either a)they tried to hide the truth from Dean or b) they went down their own path even when Dean told them not to.
Yes everyone is free to interpret the show any way they want to. This is just my interpretation of what I believe is the intent of the people putting this show together.
I know that some fans were disappointed in how season 5 ended. They wanted a confrontation between Lucifer/Sam and Michael/Dean. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the show was picked up for another season. They couldn’t have both Sam and Dean in hell. So again Dean chose to remain human. He arrived at Stull cemetery just in time to save the world if not his brother. Again the tragic story that is Dean Winchesters journey.
I really think this is a much simpler story than everyone is agonizing about. It is the reason I love this show so much. It is and always will be until, god forbid, the show ends, a story about 2 brothers who are both hero’s. And I am sorry if sounds offensive to some but it is a love story. 🙂
Cheryl42, I agree with your take on Dean as the moral center thus far. The question I have is whether his center will waver and if so how might the other characters react, all of which have made many mistakes despite Dean’s advice which he has always helped him face.
Family love is different than romantic love. Brothers should not be mistaken for lovers as they clearly were
in Bitten. The great love story of Sam and Dean should not exist for 2 30+ year old men who are not lovers. The dynamic should change and I think it will. We shouldn’t have Sam acting like a cuckholded lover because Dean values the relationships that he has with others. it’s immature and frankly unmanly. They should act like men, not lovers, not children… grown ass men. Sam becoming his own person and developing self-worth outside the family dynamics is an important step, one which Dean has already made with
Castiel who he loves as much as Sam based on his lengthy search for Castiel in Purgatory which took precedence over returning to his brother, the crypt scene, the fact that Castiel is alive despite hurting Sam, and the fact that Castiel was important enough to keave Sam alone in Sacrifice. Dean is also developing derp bonds with Benny, Charlie and Garth. Dean is making a family of his choice which is very normal for an adult.
as with o
Of course I meant the love that binds these 2 brothers as brothers not lovers. My take has never been that Sam is a jilted lover. My take is that Sam harbors a tremendous amount of guilt over all the times that he let Dean down. He felt, again IMO, that he had become so untrustworthy that Dean turned to others when Dean needed help. These were Sams feelings not Deans. That is why Deans reaction in the church indicated that he couldn’t believe that Sam felt that way. Remember Sam had walked away when Dean said that he trusted Sam over Cas. Sam had also excused himself when Dean told the priest that he had the utmost faith in his brother to complete the trials. So after believing that Dean was dead and resting peacefully in heaven Sam found out that Dean was being tortured in Purgatory. He carried that guilt all season until it culminated in the powerful scene between the brothers. Sam asking for forgiveness and Dean telling him he had no reason to be forgiven. I do believe that the point of Sacrifice according to the interview with JC before the season started was to deal with all the immature issues between the two characters and have them behave more like grown men next season. We’ll see if that actually happens.
Dean has always filled his world with other friends and I personally have never seen jealousy from Sam ever. Sam stopped Bobby from killing Benny in purgatory because he was Deans friend. He told Dean that he was wrong about Benny and he would support any decision that Dean made. He is also friends with Charlie, Garth and Castiel just not on the same level as Dean. Most fans don’t see a problem with that because Sam doesn’t and neither does Dean. I’m sorry but I don’t see the level of conflict that you do. It seems to me that if Dean can move on from his issues with Sam why can’t the fans?
I have 2 younger sisters. I also have very close friends that I would do anything for. But there would be no contest between my family and my friends. I would never put my friends above my sisters. That is the story of Supernatural. It has always been and always will be the story of 2 brothers. If that dynamic ends so will the series. Dean left Sam at the church because he truly did trust him. I believe he went with Cas because Cas hadn’t been playing with a full deck since coming back from purgatory. Dean probably thought that if anyone really did need a chaperone it was Cas. And it turned out he did.
At the least I hope that we can all look forward to season 9.
I think it was great to see inside Sam’s head but his actions this season lead to disaster outside his head. I have a lot of sympathy for Benny and Elizabeth and feel that Sam’s emotions drove his actions.
I think having Dean repeat the list of mistakes in Sacrifice as suggestions for confession shows us Dean feels these are legitimate issues. Being disappointed with Sam, or being angry with Sam does not not mean that he doesn’t love Sam. He will always love him no matter what. Dean doesn’t actually dismiss Sam’s mistakes, or forgive them. He doesn’t want Sam to die. He still wants Sam in his life. His shock is that Sam doubts his love or that Sam matters to Dean. I think Dean also sees that he matters to Sam. This is all great. It doesn’t change the fact that Sam’s behavior hurt people. He still needs to apologize and make amends for his actions. More than Sam’s feelings matter, especially when his feelings drove him to dismiss Dean’s hunting instinct, Dean’s moral compass and Dean’s safety to hunt Dean’s friend and hunting ppartner. Someone’s dead because of that. Someone’s traumatized because of that. Benny lost his best chance at normal because of that causing him to become depressed and desiring to die. A lot of fans need to see Sam atone and apologize. I think Dean would as well. Sam repeated behavior patterns which hurt Dean and didn’t apologize for hurting him (some fans see it this way and Dean does too since he is still hurt). Understanding why Sam behaved the way he did is part of the issue. A man takes responsibility for the consequences of his actions.
Yep, we have come to an impasse. There is no way you will ever see Sam in a positive light as long as he does not adhere to your story line. Unfortunately I don’t think that tptb are going to go that direction. The spoilers don’t seem to indicate that anyway. I don’t think that Sam could ever apologize enough for some fans. So sorry I started the conversation. I meant no disrespect. Signing out.
[quote] Dean left Sam at the church because he truly did trust him. I believe he went with Cas because Cas hadn’t been playing with a full deck since coming back from purgatory. Dean probably thought that if anyone really did need a chaperone it was Cas. And it turned out he did.[/quote]
I agree with you Cheryl about Dean’s attitude to Sam doing the trial. I could wish that he would put that he trusts Sam into words though, he never does, and it was what Sam needed to know (one way or the other) in the church. Of course since Sam has had Dean’s back for all his life he shouldn’t have to be so unsure of Dean’s thinking.
I think that Dean meant he was worried about Sam being ill from the trials and thus ‘needed help with the heavy lifting’. In normal circumstances he wouldn’t have left Sam to deal with Crowley (and Abbadon) alone. He knew as soon as he sensed Sam was behind him that Sam was going to misunderstand what he said and so he then had to follow through. Whether he had stayed or gone though it wouldn’t have had anything to do with whether he trusted Sam to get the job done. On the other hand:
a) Cas couldn’t really be trusted as far as Dean could throw him 🙂
b) For [i]some[/i] reason that Dean couldn’t entirely fathom his earlier attempt at ‘humour’ had fallen really flat (and not just resulted in Sam glaring at him like he usually would).
I think that that is why he left. However, to be honest, if his empathy was up to something resembling normal levels for Dean (ie he had some) he wouldn’t have found himself in that position and had to leave his brother at just the point where they needed to work together.
[quote]Yep, we have come to an impasse. There is no way you will ever see Sam in a positive light as long as he does not adhere to your story line. Unfortunately I don’t think that tptb are going to go that direction. The spoilers don’t seem to indicate that anyway. I don’t think that Sam could ever apologize enough for some fans. So sorry I started the conversation. I meant no disrespect. Signing out.[/quote]
Cheryl I hope you don’t leave, the site needs some positive vibes 😉 And it isn’t always character bashing, sometimes we get mad at the writers too! and the show runners, and… but there is always the pretty thread for when you have really had enough!
eilf I totally agree.
OK and back to speculating! I was wondering AGAIN about this so called “cure” and where/how it could manifest itself. When we left off in 8×23 it was just Sam and Dean by the Impala, Cas nearby in the woods and Crowley in the church. It appears as though Dean comes up with a solution to Sam’s issues pretty quick as Sam is ‘well’ before the end of the first ep, so maybe the answer lies with either Cas or Crowley….. or maybe Metatron does pop down from Heaven to offer assistance of some kind. I am leaning toward the answer being with Crowley because this cure would have to be something that Dean felt desperate enough to try, but also something Sam would disapprove of; otherwise there’s no reason for Dean to keep it a secret. Curiouser and curiouser. I don’t think it’s demon blood (been there, done that although I could definitely see Dean wanting to keep that a secret) it could be some angel grace maybe from one of the fallen angels (not Cas cause Metatron has his grace, the slime bucket!) yet, I don’t think that Crowley would have angel grace on him, unless we find out that Crowley is a fallen angel or something and gives Sam his tainted grace (do fallen angels still have their grace in the Supernatural Universe?). Urg… I can’t even come up with anything that makes any sense.
Does anyone else have any ideas? Anyone? Bueller?
[quote](do fallen angels still have their grace in the Supernatural Universe?)[/quote]
Yes, they hide it in trees inside tiny vials that can be broken for when they want it back. Grace In A Tree, one of the less good story points, IMHO.
I don’t actually think Crowley is a fallen angel. Missyjack on livejournal [url]http://missyjack.livejournal.com/954514.html[/url] met with Adam Glass and Robbie Thompson. She repeated this from the interview (no spoilers)[quote]Robbie said Crowley’s line about Mesopotamia, was because Robbie thought it sounded funny (it was going to be Mesopotamia or Belize) It was only later he actually realized the canon implications of the line. But they do care about canon a lot (and they do use the Wiki for reference!)[/quote]
I do think Sam’s recovery has something to do with Crowley, but they say it will be new and different, so we’ll see. I’m actually rooting for demon blood, because I want Sam to know that having it doesn’t make him unclean. That he was just picking up on John’s feelings about Sam. But that’s not a popular opinion and I really don’t think it will happen.
I have a lot of ideas. I agree demon blood is unlikely. I agree Crowley’s help is probably key. My number one guess is that Dean does the trials himself to relievevSsm if the burden. Crowley could help with every step. We actually do not know what the hell trials does except that it closes hell off from earth. I am betting that is all that it does. In this scenario demons on earth are trapped there and reapers are unable to escort damned souls to hell. There are rumors that Death will be back. Dean messing with the natural order on such a large scale seems almost guaranteed to gain Death’s notice. Spoilers indicate that Abaddon is desperate for Crowley. She is unaware of the trials and may think that Crowley has locked her out to prevent her from gaining control. of course the main argument against this is Dean is alive. He could be slive for several reasons. Death could resurrect him to gix things. He goes to heaven and Metatron resurrects him because Dean creates great stories. A personal favorite involves season 6 canon. Dean ingested the ash of the Phoenix. At the least this might give him regenerative powers, since the Phoenix was known yo resurrect unless shot by the colt. Dean hasn’t died since this happened. He could also become a Phoenix which is a symbol of righteous vengeance and is considered yo be a good monster, beloved of God, that righted wrongs and punished evil. In a season where 3 supernatural characters are shifting towards humanity it might make sense for Dean to go the other way. oh should add the persistent myth that a new Phoenix rises from the ashes of the old one.
Crowley is a skilled sorceror. He could help magically. The Winchesters have the Thule manual wbich contains their resurrection experiments. Dean could use them to resurrect Dean.Since Castiel could not cure him an angel’s grace shouldn’t either. An angel’s grace is a powerful spell component.
Dean could cure him with the spear of destiny which he was looking at in a late episode. I have forgotten which one. He examines the spear, a healing staff twined with serpents (caduceus, sp?) and an egg (symbol of life). Dean curing Sam with the spear of Destiny calls to mind the Parsifal legend. Season 8 was rife with knightly allusions including the obvious Moondor episode, a quest for good, secret societies, a keep with a dungeon, holy texts and relics, annointing new hunters/knights, Dean’s talk of the purity of war, Dean’s quest in Purgatory to save the angel and return him home (crusade)… Dean has always been a knightly figure.
My last idea is out there. Have Sam possessed by angel or demon who can hold him together long enough gor a proper cure to be found.
Demons are evil. Drinking demon blood made Sam’s eyes go black. He turned against his brother and took the word of a demon over that of his brother. He Beat his brother bloody while hopped up on it. It became an addiction that ruled his life. I cannot see that this is good. It might save him, but the issue isn’t that the demon blood was removed. Sam is dying because of the trials not because he was physically purified.
[quote]Demons are evil. Drinking demon blood made Sam’s eyes go black. He turned against his brother and took the word of a demon over that of his brother. He Beat his brother bloody while hopped up on it. It became an addiction that ruled his life. I cannot see that this is good. It might save him, but the issue isn’t that the demon blood was removed. Sam is dying because of the trials not because he was physically purified.[/quote]
I think we all know what Sam did in season 4 and that I dont think we are all supposed to still live as viewers in that moment.Sam has atoned for those mistakes .
I would personally like to see the DB brought back up as it has been part of Sam from 6 mths however whatever cures Sam I dont think that DB will be part of it because in reality they would also have to deal with Sam’s addiction IMO.
@e
Slime bucket is a perfect description of Metatron. Gonna steal that 🙂
If Dean brought it up it is still an issue for him and also for some fans. The way Sam has been written without repercussions for how he treats others is problematic. Putting Lucifer back into the cage and suffering forever doesn’t make Dean feel better. Dean suffered too and he is still able to apologize for sending a text or not serming like he trusts Sam to do the trials. Forget anything pre season 8 that Dean mentioned. Sam has never apologized for not looking. He never apologized for not trusting Dean about Benny. He never apologized to Benny for not trusting him after Benny died to save him and was very good natured about it all. It’s a huge fail in the writing. Woe is me tears about how lousy he feels that his brother turned to an angel or vampire after he failed Dean shows self awareness and the beginnings of remorse. The thing is that in true remorse he would realize the pain he caused his brother
and would want to atone. An apology is the first place to start.
But yeah, introducing a substance that he was addicted to sounds like a bad way to go.
More ideas, archangels maybe could cure him. but I doubt they would breach the cage this early in an already busy season.
I hope that whatever happens it makes sense. I hate the spec that Metatron’s spell to cast out angels ripped heaven allowing a few ghosts go spill out too. Sounds like a stretch to me.
[quote]Sam is dying because of the trials not because he was physically purified..[/quote]
See I don’t think that it matters if really matters if the trials physically cleaned out Sam of the demon blood, even though I think Sam was rationalising his suffering during the trials. I took that in the breakdown he was admitting that a lot of his previous talk of eventually being purified and always being unclean and it being linked to his failings was complete BS. I think we are meant to see it as in part as Sam still links his cock ups to an external and supernatural linked reason and the breakdown as him finally letting that reasoning go.
When he broke down and part of it that Dean could turn to a vampire instead of him. It wasn’t just jealousy that was coming out about Dean turning to others. Benny was a brother to Dean in a trust worthy sense and still was an unclean being; he was a walking example that one had nothing to do with the other and that must hurt someone who is holding on to the idea that it was the demon blood that lead to the actions that caused Dean not trust him 100%. .
Because even with the Demon Blood being out of his veins it doesn’t change the previous choices Sam made and a lot of that breakdown in the finale was about Sam acknowledging his flaws. An addict still has to live with the people he has hurt even after they have gotten clean and how can they fully atone or even admit that if they are still hanging onto the idea that whatever they were addicted to is the sole reason they did what they did.
As for will demon blood play a part in Sam’s recovery? I don’t think so but I don’t think it will be really demonic or angelic either. I think Sam will be cured by something soul based, it could be by Bobby sacrificing his soul to heal Sam and Dean not telling him because Bobby asked him not too (hence the secret). Or the after affect of the demon cure because do we know where the host soul goes when the cured Demon is still in situ? Does it stay or is it freed? If it is ‘freed’ from the body what with heaven in an undetermined state could that mean that part of the host’s soul will kick back to Sam as he cures the demons because it can’t stay in the body and has nowhere else to go and he is the closest thing resonating with the word of God? Death could explain that to Dean and he doesn’t have the heart to tell Sam that in curing Demons he is swapping one addiction for another because either way the host soul is free of the demon and not suffering anymore and could give a reason for Dean to go dark because he feels responsible that his brother is unknowingly feeding on souls.
Though if it is the later that would mean that it isn’t Crowley that cures Sam but what little is left of the book agent that Crowley was riding.
@Castiel’s Cat
An apology from Sam – a proper one with no excuses tied to the back would be a good excuse because even since Ruby, Sam has been told that his choices in the end were his own. Only Lucifer has given Sam a 100% pass by telling him that they weren’t when he said about all the people in his life that were watching him.
It would be interesting to see how Sam deals with actually acknowledging to those he hurt that he hurt them and dealing with the affects of that hurt because does he really dealt with Dean’s in the past, the closest we got was the not looking and then he told Dean to shut up or he’d walk which considering he knows Dean’s abandonment issues was a bit of a dick move. If they go down that route and don’t bring Benny back (which I don’t want if it solely to have Sam apologise as it would be a waste of Benny) I would love it for Sam to meet Elizabeth to get her take on it seeing how she was the innocent dragged into what was essentially a grudge match
If he dealt with others pain it would open Sam up a bit more I think and make him more relatible for me and I think it would also mean that Sam could get to a point where he can get his own connections and friends which he sorely needs because this handing onto a supernatural bent to his storylines isolates him from every other character other than Dean.
As for Archangels – is there any left? Metatron was downgraded from Archangel to typing pool scribey cherub type.
Though I can’t see Gabe being the type of Archangel Metatron discribed as taking over heaven and organising things.
I was thinking, what if Dean had a backup plan to cure Sam before Sacrifice? Something Kevin told him from the tablet or something he found in the MoL. Like a plan B if something got wrong – and it did, so he used this plan but is unwiling to tell Sam because he might think that it is proof that Dean didn´t trust him compleating the trials, but it is actually Dean caring for his brother, etc.
This might be Dean’s secret – something Dean did that put some of Sam’s burden on him, and now they are sharing. And maybe Sam is changing into real Sam, without demon blood or supernatural power (one can dream, ok?).
Have a plan B and not always sharing is very Dean, like with Eve. Maybe this time he was afraid it would blow in his face, like the Amelia text message.
[quote]I was thinking, what if Dean had a backup plan to cure Sam before Sacrifice? Something Kevin told him from the tablet or something he found in the MoL. Like a plan B if something got wrong – and it did, so he used this plan but is unwiling to tell Sam because he might think that it is proof that Dean didn´t trust him compleating the trials, but it is actually Dean caring for his brother, etc.
This might be Dean’s secret – something Dean did that put some of Sam’s burden on him, and now they are sharing. And maybe Sam is changing into real Sam, without demon blood or supernatural power (one can dream, ok?).
Have a plan B and not always sharing is very Dean, like with Eve. Maybe this time he was afraid it would blow in his face, like the Amelia text message.[/quote]
What a lovely thought. Although Dean should have said in case something accidentally happened to him. And yes, it is quite Dean-ish to have a back up plan
[quote][quote]I was thinking, what if Dean had a backup plan to cure Sam before Sacrifice? Something Kevin told him from the tablet or something he found in the MoL. Like a plan B if something got wrong – and it did, so he used this plan but is unwiling to tell Sam because he might think that it is proof that Dean didn´t trust him compleating the trials, but it is actually Dean caring for his brother, etc.
This might be Dean’s secret – something Dean did that put some of Sam’s burden on him, and now they are sharing. And maybe Sam is changing into real Sam, without demon blood or supernatural power (one can dream, ok?).
Have a plan B and not always sharing is very Dean, like with Eve. Maybe this time he was afraid it would blow in his face, like the Amelia text message.[/quote]
What a lovely thought. Although Dean should have said in case something accidentally happened to him. And yes, it is quite Dean-ish to have a back up plan[/quote]
You’re right! Although they are not the life insurance kind of guys 😉
I hope you’re right Ale. I would love to see an end to Sam and db and all the rest of it. JC did say something early on in S8 about closing Sam’s long and complicated story line. Human Sam would be a nice change. I like the back up plan as well. It makes sense.
[quote]I hope you’re right Ale. I would love to see an end to Sam and db and all the rest of it. JC did say something early on in S8 about closing Sam’s long and complicated story line. Human Sam would be a nice change. I like the back up plan as well. It makes sense.[/quote]
I’d like to see the original demon blood taint go too. It has served it’s part in the story now, so time to move past it and give poor Sam a break. He’s got enough to deal with aside from that.
What I’d really like to see in S9 is a little bit more happiness for both boys. Not too much or it would get boring. But a little 🙂 They’ve really earned it.
cheryl 42 just want to tell you how much i’ve enjoyed your posts. i believe we are in full agreement.
as for sam apologizing there is nothing for him to apologize for as i’ve said on a previous post. there’s no doubt of how horrible sam felt in knowing he’d made the mistake of believing his brother had died. but there is no need to apologize for believing that as he had every right to and he was in an emotionally broken state at the time as was indicated on show many times by sam, meg, bobby, and garth in sc.
it is not sam’s fault that dean took what sam said, dean i thought you were dead. hunting took my entire familly. i was all alone. he took that and twisted it all around to suit his warped sense of pov, which is he left dean in purgatory for a girl. it’s not sam’s fault dean has a warped sense of seeing things. he’s explained to him time and again that she had nothing to do with it. he’d thought his brother dead. dean is the one who twisted everything around. he’s the one who kept making sam feel like crap. honestly, how many apologies has dean not given over the years when he should have anyway..like every time he called sam a freak or a monster, or killing amy and lying about it. i don’t believe he apologized for that little deed.
so you have a few eps of dean jabbing, then the boys aren’t even on, then bloodbrothers dean takes off..then the famous rant.
this rant in which dean laundrylisted all of sam’ s crimes against him and which sam has said he was sorry for over and over. so at this point, if i’m sam what’s the point of an i’m sorry anyway. it’s not like it would mean a hill of beans. his apologies have never meant anything to dean before as illustrated by the rant. so even if sam wanted to apologize to dean after sc, what would be the point. so sam does the only thing he can do, he tries to make up to dean his failing him yet again. when the trials come up he seizes the opportunity to atone.
if that’s not enough for some in this fandom, than i’m sorry to say that’s your issue. but this convo has been done so long ago. it’s obvious that no amount of proof or examples will change your opinion. so if it’s all the same, this is a topic for the bitterness thread where one can gripe to one’s content. this is the spec site and i for one would love to start reading posts about that.
jmo of course.
I’m hoping whatever saves Sam its not because Dean had a super secret back up plan that he hid from Sam. Honestly…arn’t these two guys suppposed to be hunting partners? Operative word PARTNERS?
Respect is EARNED. ANd that goes both ways. NO one should be able to demand complete and total honesty and then dole it out as he sees fit.[quote]@Castiel’s Cat
An apology from Sam – a proper one with no excuses tied to the back would be a good excuse because even since Ruby, Sam has been told that his choices in the end were his own. Only Lucifer has given Sam a 100% pass by telling him that they weren’t when he said about all the people in his life that were watching him.
It would be interesting to see how Sam deals with actually acknowledging to those he hurt that he hurt them and dealing with the affects of that hurt because does he really dealt with Dean’s in the past, the closest we got was the not looking and then he told Dean to shut up or he’d walk which considering he knows Dean’s abandonment issues was a bit of a dick move. If they go down that route and don’t bring Benny back (which I don’t want if it solely to have Sam apologise as it would be a waste of Benny) I would love it for Sam to meet Elizabeth to get her take on it seeing how she was the innocent dragged into what was essentially a grudge match
If he dealt with others pain it would open Sam up a bit more I think and make him more relatible for me and I think it would also mean that Sam could get to a point where he can get his own connections and friends which he sorely needs because this handing onto a supernatural bent to his storylines isolates him from every other character other than Dean.
As for Archangels – is there any left? Metatron was downgraded from Archangel to typing pool scribey cherub type.
Though I can’t see Gabe being the type of Archangel Metatron discribed as taking over heaven and organising things.[/quote]
You want to talk about dealing with others pain in an emoathetic and sympathetic manner? What about Dean adn Castiel? Rememeber how your big badass Hunter with a decade of torture experience under his belt and the super powered Angel gained up and terrorized an 18 year old kid into doing what THEY wanted.
That is not showing Dean as some great and uber Leader. That is showing Dean and castiel to be a thug and bully. [quote][quote]I was thinking, what if Dean had a backup plan to cure Sam before Sacrifice? Something Kevin told him from the tablet or something he found in the MoL. Like a plan B if something got wrong – and it did, so he used this plan but is unwiling to tell Sam because he might think that it is proof that Dean didn´t trust him compleating the trials, but it is actually Dean caring for his brother, etc.
This might be Dean’s secret – something Dean did that put some of Sam’s burden on him, and now they are sharing. And maybe Sam is changing into real Sam, without demon blood or supernatural power (one can dream, ok?).
Have a plan B and not always sharing is very Dean, like with Eve. Maybe this time he was afraid it would blow in his face, like the Amelia text message.[/quote]
What a lovely thought. Although Dean should have said in case something accidentally happened to him. And yes, it is quite Dean-ish to have a back up plan[/quote]
Dean should have said something out of simple respect if this is the case. Sam wouldn’t have objected to any back up plan as he wanted so survive, was hoping to survive.
So the lie apparently is because Dean DOESN”T trust Sam and he DOES think Sam needs a chaperone and doesn’t deserfve the respect of honesty that he himself demands.
Can someone PLEASE explain why Dean keeps insisting Sam hunt with him when he so obviously thinks Sam is incompetant as a hunter and brother?
[quote]cheryl 42 just want to tell you how much i’ve enjoyed your posts. i believe we are in full agreement.
as for sam apologizing there is nothing for him to apologize for as i’ve said on a previous post. there’s no doubt of how horrible sam felt in knowing he’d made the mistake of believing his brother had died. but there is no need to apologize for believing that as he had every right to and he was in an emotionally broken state at the time as was indicated on show many times by sam, meg, bobby, and garth in sc.
it is not sam’s fault that dean took what sam said, dean i thought you were dead. hunting took my entire familly. i was all alone. he took that and twisted it all around to suit his warped sense of pov, which is he left dean in purgatory for a girl. it’s not sam’s fault dean has a warped sense of seeing things. he’s explained to him time and again that she had nothing to do with it. he’d thought his brother dead. dean is the one who twisted everything around. he’s the one who kept making sam feel like crap. honestly, how many apologies has dean not given over the years when he should have anyway..like every time he called sam a freak or a monster, or killing amy and lying about it. i don’t believe he apologized for that little deed.
so you have a few eps of dean jabbing, then the boys aren’t even on, then bloodbrothers dean takes off..then the famous rant.
this rant in which dean laundrylisted all of sam’ s crimes against him and which sam has said he was sorry for over and over. so at this point, if i’m sam what’s the point of an i’m sorry anyway. it’s not like it would mean a hill of beans. his apologies have never meant anything to dean before as illustrated by the rant. so even if sam wanted to apologize to dean after sc, what would be the point. so sam does the only thing he can do, he tries to make up to dean his failing him yet again. when the trials come up he seizes the opportunity to atone.
if that’s not enough for some in this fandom, than i’m sorry to say that’s your issue. but this convo has been done so long ago. it’s obvious that no amount of proof or examples will change your opinion. so if it’s all the same, this is a topic for the bitterness thread where one can gripe to one’s content. this is the spec site and i for one would love to start reading posts about that.
jmo of course.[/quote]
I agree I am not inclined to get involved with the Sam needs to apologize trope . He has done enough and it is time to move Sam away from this perpetual idea he has to apologize because he thinks he is not good enough. And that is something I want to see in season 9 x
yes…finally back to speculating…
i’m confident that it’s not a blood thing that will cure sam. in all honesty, i don’t see a connection bet blood and not finishing the trials. i mean i get that sam needed to rid the db to be pure and that happened. so as far as sam goes, he’s no longer tainted and i believe carver will keep it that way.
now depending if crowley is on in the premiere, it is possible that dean goes to him because as of this moment he still is suffering from humanity. so he may give dean the answer to healing sam simply because he can’t resist doing so.
i still think it’s possible that dean finds the answer in the mol bunker as well.
whatever they decide, i’m quite looking forward to it.
as for sam’s change, my hope is more along the line that it’s not anything like a superpower…but i’d be ok if his original innate psychic ability was awakened. in home that innate ability seemed to include telekinesis. not sure i’d want that. but the visions i’d be ok with. like it or not those premonitions saved lives. either that or i’d really like sam’s knowledge to increase. sam always seems to know stuff without explanation. that would be something cool to explore.
Ale I would put money on Dean having a back-up plan, especially given Sam’s condition.
Dean got the bully behavior from Castiel too at one point. It’s a hard life if you’re chosen. Dean conmiserated with Kevin in season 7. I think that Dean is definitely harder after Purgatory. I also think that Castiel is right. Kevin isn’t a teen that wants to drop an extracurricular activity. Kevin’s a prophet of the Lord, there’s work for him to do, and death is the only escspe of his responsibility. Personally I was tired of Kevin’s histrionics over the course of the season..
Personally I was far more surprised that Dean brought Kevin both uppers and downers to help him with translations. I expected Kevin to OD or something. To me that is a big clue that however Dean changed in Purgatory, it is not good.
Fazzie, I like your take on the DB being another excuse and that the trials not only remove it from his system, but also open his eyes to his oersonal responsibility. Of.course it is no accident that Saint Benny is a vampire..Your idea about souls also is a good idea. Remember thst souls are energy. I still think it could tie into a spell recipe to heal or resurrect him.
[quote]If Dean brought it up it is still an issue for him and also for some fans. The way Sam has been written without repercussions for how he treats others is problematic. Putting Lucifer back into the cage and suffering forever doesn’t make Dean feel better. Dean suffered too and he is still able to apologize for sending a text or not serming like he trusts Sam to do the trials. Forget anything pre season 8 that Dean mentioned. Sam has never apologized for not looking. He never apologized for not trusting Dean about Benny. He never apologized to Benny for not trusting him after Benny died to save him and was very good natured about it all. It’s a huge fail in the writing. Woe is me tears about how lousy he feels that his brother turned to an angel or vampire after he failed Dean shows self awareness and the beginnings of remorse. The thing is that in true remorse he would realize the pain he caused his brother
and would want to atone. An apology is the first place to start.
But yeah, introducing a substance that he was addicted to sounds like a bad way to go.
More ideas, archangels maybe could cure him. but I doubt they would breach the cage this early in an already busy season.
I hope that whatever happens it makes sense. I hate the spec that Metatron’s spell to cast out angels ripped heaven allowing a few ghosts go spill out too. Sounds like a stretch to me.[/quote]
Dean brought it up because it was poor writing and the speech did not make Dean look good . As for those fans who have a issue with Sam they will always have a issue irrespective of wether Sam apologized or not and on this subject we will not agree . Dean did not regret what he did with the text or cared about Amelia anymore than he did with Amy so again our paths do not meet .
Sharon to me Dean’s comments are a logical human response and not bad writing. Bad writing is not having a character apologize for being an asshat. But to each their own. I think Carver is going to focus a lot on their humanity, the good and the not so good.
[quote]I was thinking, what if Dean had a backup plan to cure Sam before Sacrifice? Something Kevin told him from the tablet or something he found in the MoL. Like a plan B if something got wrong – and it did, so he used this plan but is unwiling to tell Sam because he might think that it is proof that Dean didn´t trust him compleating the trials, but it is actually Dean caring for his brother, etc.
This might be Dean’s secret – something Dean did that put some of Sam’s burden on him, and now they are sharing. And maybe Sam is changing into real Sam, without demon blood or supernatural power (one can dream, ok?).
Have a plan B and not always sharing is very Dean, like with Eve. Maybe this time he was afraid it would blow in his face, like the Amelia text message.[/quote]
That’s a good point, there was really no need to keep the plan B from the others in that episode. Unless he was afraid it wouldn’t work … and I am pretty sure it wouldn’t have worked as ash is not very (or at all) digestible. But it was a fun twist and that was the important thing 😀
The ‘Rudy hobbit’ thing could be a clue forshadowing that?
It is likely that Dean wouldn’t tell Sam if it was something that would end up with Dean being seriously ill or dying. However that storyline was done in season 3 and Dean realized very early on how much of a burden he put on both himself and Sam by selling his soul so hopefully in the 5 years since then he has matured enough to know not to do anything like that again, for both their sakes.
[quote]Sharon to me Dean’s comments are a logical human response and not bad writing. Bad writing is not having a character apologize for being an asshat. But to each their own. I think Carver is going to focus a lot on their humanity, the good and the not so good.[/quote]
Like I said we disagree on this I know what that speech was and logical responses was not one of them. But seeing though I do not wish to get dragged into a argument that will not change either of our views and it is a speculation thread then I shall focus on that.
@ eilf
Agreed, I’d really hate for Dean to make another unsolicited sacrifice for Sam. I know it would be based on love but I don’t think Sam could handle that again if Dean was hurt as a result
[quote] Dean should have said something out of simple respect if this is the case. Sam wouldn’t have objected to any back up plan as he wanted so survive, was hoping to survive.
So the lie apparently is because Dean DOESN”T trust Sam and he DOES think Sam needs a chaperone and doesn’t deserfve the respect of honesty that he himself demands.
Can someone PLEASE explain why Dean keeps insisting Sam hunt with him when he so obviously thinks Sam is incompetant as a hunter and brother?[/quote]
What I am speculating is that Dean was desperate for Sam NOT die, and he couldn’t just see Sam ill without a plan to cure him. But still, with all that discussion with Sam thinking Dean didn’t trust him to complete the trials alone, Dean was uneasy to tell Sam he had a back up plan to cure him in the end.
Your reaction to the back up plan theory clearly ilustrates Dean’s worries about what Sam might think, even if it was not true 😀
[quote] Dean should have said something out of simple respect if this is the case. Sam wouldn’t have objected to any back up plan as he wanted so survive, was hoping to survive.
So the lie apparently is because Dean DOESN”T trust Sam and he DOES think Sam needs a chaperone and doesn’t deserfve the respect of honesty that he himself demands.
Can someone PLEASE explain why Dean keeps insisting Sam hunt with him when he so obviously thinks Sam is incompetant as a hunter and brother?[/quote]
What I am speculating is that Dean was desperate for Sam NOT die, and he couldn’t just see Sam ill without a plan to cure him. But still, with all that discussion with Sam thinking Dean didn’t trust him to complete the trials alone, Dean was uneasy to tell Sam he had a back up plan to cure him in the end.
Your reaction to the back up plan theory clearly ilustrates Dean’s worries about what Sam might think, even if it was not true 😀
[quote]OK and back to speculating! I was wondering AGAIN about this so called “cure” and where/how it could manifest itself. When we left off in 8×23 it was just Sam and Dean by the Impala, Cas nearby in the woods and Crowley in the church. It appears as though Dean comes up with a solution to Sam’s issues pretty quick as Sam is ‘well’ before the end of the first ep, so maybe the answer lies with either Cas or Crowley….. or maybe Metatron does pop down from Heaven to offer assistance of some kind. I am leaning toward the answer being with Crowley because this cure would have to be something that Dean felt desperate enough to try, but also something Sam would disapprove of; otherwise there’s no reason for Dean to keep it a secret. Curiouser and curiouser. I don’t think it’s demon blood (been there, done that although I could definitely see Dean wanting to keep that a secret) it could be some angel grace maybe from one of the fallen angels (not Cas cause Metatron has his grace, the slime bucket!) yet, I don’t think that Crowley would have angel grace on him, unless we find out that Crowley is a fallen angel or something and gives Sam his tainted grace (do fallen angels still have their grace in the Supernatural Universe?). Urg… I can’t even come up with anything that makes any sense.
Does anyone else have any ideas? Anyone? Bueller?[/quote]
Hi E, Bueller has the day off as it is pretty hard to find actual speculation posts to respond to at this stage. 😀
I don’t have any real idea, and this might be spoilery so beware! (but I am not even sure if this is something I read or just speculation) I will try to use the hidden text button. Cas isn’t necessarily nearby, he is just in woodland, I don’t think he will have any part in whatever the big secret is (and at this stage I hope it is a really good secret ).
Logically it seems to me that he must be totally bemused and out of it, suffering from post-traumatic stress as the result of a major spell, and unable to function to help people who are in a bad way, partly because he is not aware that there is a problem (wow that sounds familiar now that I think about it).
Sorry, apparently the hide button still doesn’t work …
If Dean brought it up then those are Dean’s issues not Sam’s.
Sorry I vowed to let this drop.
Anyway…….I think that the angel that fell near Sam and Dean, that Sam had a violent reaction to, is going to Ezekiel (sp). Dean will know that Sam needs help now and ask the angel to help him. Maybe he gives some of his blood or some of his grace to Sam but he warns Dean that the cure will have side effects. Maybe that is why Jared was so excited about the changes that Sam is going to go through. I hope they are temporary side effects and that Sam will eventually become totally human. I would like to see Dean figure out a way to resurrect Benny and somehow that will lead to getting everyone back where they belong (I’m looking at you angels and demons). Castiel’s story still remains for me hard to figure. Whatever, I am excited to see where everyone’s story goes. I hope the knew writers have done their homework and will put out a product worthy of the incredibly intelligent SPN fans
Sorry for the double post.
LOL I can’t let it drop either… with apologies… Dean is a character and if he has been hurt it matters. Dean felt he had to send the text, yet he apologized because it hurt Sam badly which was not his intent. If Sam’s pride prevents him from doing the same, he will continue to be unsympathetic to fans that see Dean as a distinct character and not as a caretaker for Sam. A portion if these fans wish he would go off with Amelia or die… seriously… because they see Dean’s other relationships as healthier and better for Dean.
I do agree that Castiel is far away and Ezekiel is the angel that fell nearby. I am not sure any part of an angel will help Sam unless it is a spell component. Castiel seemed quite concerned about Sam, desperate to make things up to Dean, and had no ideas to offer. I think his comment that he was beyond an angel’s help was sincere. of course canon means more to fans than the writers.
I think Metatron is an archangel and lied to seem powerless. it is more likely that he lied to Castiel, Dean and Sam; I can’t imagine that anything on the tablet was a lie. He ran off before the Archangels could have Naomi alter his programming.
in response to castiel’s cat. i have to say that i can’t believe you cannot see the hypocrisy in your very own post. you have proven the very point that has been made on this site. you say that we should ignore everything preseason 8 that dean has ever done to sam, and only concentrate on the one sin sam has seemingly made. to not look for dean.
let’s not forget that when dean killed amy he didn’t apologize to sam for it. he gave his reasons and that was it. but when sam does the exact same thing, he needs to apologize. what a hypocrisy. sam gave his reasons just the same as dean did. he explained where he was coming from over and over. why apologize for not doing anything wrong? believing someone dead…breaking, running away from the life that took everyone…not a crime. not a sin. especially against dean. sam was in an emotional/broken state, imploding and running as he told the audience in blood brother, but it seems unacceptable to you…and that’s your issue. but no matter how much you harp on this issue, it doesn’t make it true.
and there is no reason for sam to apologize to benny. sam’s mistrust of a monster came from experience, years of dean’s you can’t trust a monster talk, getting burned personally and mostly from dean lying and keeping benny a secret in the first place. all of the mistrust could’ve been avoided if dean had just told sam about benny. so sam’s mistrust of benny, dean partly responsible for that. sam didn’t owe benny any apology. but he certainly was willing to ride benny out wasn’t he. but that of course doesn’t count. of course not why would it.
i get it. you hate sam. you’ll never see anything but bad in him even when there isn’t any there. you’ll always knock him down to raise dean up and that’s fine. it’s your right to do that as much as it is our right to defend sam and show that mistakes and flaws go both ways. but this is the speculation site. it’s about talking and guessing about what will happen in s9. if it’s all the same to you, and i’m sorry everyone else, but this has just gone on long enough and it’s taking the joy out of being in here and we have a right to be in here….so if you would take your hate to the bitterness thread, and stop going on about this, it would be greatly appreciated. i for one am taking my very own advice…only speculating from here on out…
again my apologies to everyone else for this rant… guess i reached my limit and i just had enough. this talk just doesn’t belong here and it’s making it rather unenjoyable to come here to chat. …and i’d much rather stay here and chat about s9.
[quote]yes…finally back to speculating…
now depending if crowley is on in the premiere, it is possible that dean goes to him because as of this moment he still is suffering from humanity. so he may give dean the answer to healing sam simply because he can’t resist doing so.
i still think it’s possible that dean finds the answer in the mol bunker as well.
for sure that Dean is proactive in this ‘cure’? I mean you mentioned that maybe Dean asks Crowly for something. What if Crowley – in a fit of humanity – offers up the cure? Dean is naturally suspicious but Crowley points out that door #1 is Sam dead. and Door #2 is Sam alive. Just because Crowly has bouts of humanity doesn’t mean he doesn’t have ulterior motives. Eiither as a demon or a demon on the edge of humanity.
Castiels Cat: I wasn’t the least bit surprised that Dean offered Kevin drugs. He’s offered and tried to push narcotics on Sam several times in the series. I think Dean sees it as an easy way to control others and make them malleable to that control. I’ll agree that purgatory didn’t change him for the better…even if it was shown to be good FOR him (found his purpose…rolls eyes)
i think both Hell and purgatory stripped him of valuable aspects of his humanity. While you beleive this makes him a better leader…to me it simply makes him less human and dangerous and not in a good way. At this point I would trust Benny and Castiel…hell even Crowly before I would trust Dean with my life. He’s never failed at anything he’s tried. Its made him arrogan, pretends at humility and i dont doubt for a second he thinks he is infallable. It truely speaks to how he sees everyones motives for doing anything s nothing more then as intent to betray him. I’m not talking only about Sam. but castiel. Heaven is his home. he said so himself and in sacrifice he was trying to save his home… his family But all Dean saw Cas betraying him.
Dean is a master manipulator. he uses his angry histeronics of betrayal to break people down mentally and physically even as he plays the poor wounded little boy with abandonment issues.
if Dean isn’t manipulating people then Dean needs to look outside himself, beyond his own pain and see that other peopel are also in pain. I find it horrifying that some think Sam needs to apologize for thinking Dean was dead. Because that would means Sam is basically apologizing for loving and needing Dean so much that his death broke him. Sam would be apologizing for being human.
and if fans want that then i have to wonder where the writers stand on humanity? Do they and dean see humanity as having no value? is that why their main POV charector connects less and less with humanity and more with the supernatural? he has relationships with humans (sam and Charlie) but he has PROFOUND relationships with the supernatural. (castiel and Benny)
I think it will be intersting to see how Castiels new found humanity changes his relationship with Dean. Will he see less value in Cas? he’s called Cas a ‘baby in a trenchcoat’ before…and now that he has to potty train him i assume…he will see Cas as having less value.
which is tragically as Dean has been trying to humanize Castiel for years now.
A truely good leader brings his people together; builds on their stregnths, works on helping his people overcome weakneses or turn them into stregnths. A good leader has failed and learned from those failures to become a better leader.
tgreat leader but the passed 5 years of grudge holding and histroinic screaming how everyone has betrayed him (except benny Cullin) shows a man who doesn’t have it. Not to mention The End where he uses his teams trust and faith in them against them…leading them to their death in what ended up a pointless and futile slaughter
I would love if in season 9 Dean rediscovers his humanity; his empathy for others. Becomes a leader i can admire and trust with not only my my favoerite charectors life but other charecters lives as well.
Sam loves and needs his brother and would (and has) followed him into Hell. But Dean shouldn’t just be given this trust…he needs to earn it. And in my opinion..due to all the lies, the manipulation, the previous breaches of trust, the physical and mental smackdowns…..he hasn’t proven he can be trusted
Goodness. I personally don’t forget the earler issues and Dean doesn’t either LOL but you all seem to think that Sam’s suffering is enough. I personally do not think not looking is the issue either. He fell apart. If Sam had tried harder to explain rather than get mad that buying Dean a f…… hamburger didn’t smooth things over then the season would have gone differently. instead Sam was mad at himself and took it out on Dean. Instead Sam was jealous that Dean trusted Benny more than him and became hellbent on oroving Benny was bad/trying to kill him. Sam knew Amy was killing human beings and he let her go. Dean knew Benny was not. Sam’s behavior is completely on Sam. It is not Dean’s fault if Sam runs away or turns to Ruby or acts like a self-righteous stuck up jerk. How many words and posts have you made trying to justify his behavior, without any connection to canon I might add. your rational is all extrapolated. it is your fanon.
In Sacrifice Sam says that it upset him that Dean trusted Benny. In TD Sam admitted he was wrong about Benny. In Bitten Sam has no problem letting a werewolf go without any fault. In TaF Sam is fine letting Benny live as long as Dean doesn’t see him anymore. BB confirmed that Benny stopped killing humans before he died on principle because we saw confirmation from the other Vampires. We Also saw Benny save Castiel against his better interest because it was important to Dean; trying and failing to save Castiel would have served Benny’s interest better. This is all canon. Your insistence that Sam is completely innocent is not based on canon. You know in your gut Benny is bad even though it is not shown and in fact he died to save Sam and also because he’s afraid he will slip up. Good Lord, even if Benny had been bad it would not excuse lraving his bloody and unconscious brother chained to an elevator in a town with a killer vamp that knows him. It doesn’t excuse leaving town without making sure Dean was okay. it doesn’t excuse stealing his partner’s car or not having his back- a huge no no in the hunting world.
I have just bern on a thread on IMBD where once again people are lamenting that they don’t think they can forgive Sam even if he apologizes for his part in CF. Men especially heroes have to be accountable for their actions. And in a show like Supernatural where the relationships are so important, this accountability better apply to those as well. Believe me I do not understand how anyone can excuse or sympathize with a character that is too prideful to admit mistakes, too prideful to Apologize and who consistently lets people down and turns the blame on others whenever they are forced to admit they messed up.
It offends my sense of ethics and fairplay.
Bad writing is having characters flip flop like the boys did about ghost Bobby last season. Bad writing is forgetting the show’s canon.
Having a season where a character is reminded in the premier, the middle and the finale that they messed up, their actions caused pain, and that they really haven’t done enough… this is a season long character arc and is meaningful. Dean, Amelia’s father, Amelia, Kevin, Bobny ALL called Sam out on his behavior. Is that all just bad writing? Dean repeats everything he said in SC in Sacrifice? you seriously think he’s joking? You seriously think the writers are making Dean be mean to Sam for no reason. Having Dean first say these things when he was possessed by a spectre tells us that these are things Dean is upset about but he buried them. Having Sam confess these very things to purify his blood tells us that these were Sam’s sins and that he had to acknowledge them. This is not bad writing. it is extremely purposeful writing.
Now we have: on the right side of the ring, amyh, defending Sam, and on the left side of the ring castiels cat, for Dean.
Let’s NOT let the fight begin.
Amyh, I don’t see every change from Purgatory as being good necessarily. I think Dean made peace with himself which has pros and cons. The torture scenes, some of the comments he’s made, his manic focus on the hellgate quest which he decided on, planned and manipulated to achieve, only to drop it because it meant Sam’s death. This truly hints at a darkness that could play into a big Dean arc this season, and forms the crux of why I think he wasn’t sidelined. He was controlling things all season. Metatron’s arc with Castiel closely parallels Dean’s arc with Cas, except that Metatron didn’t care enough about Cas to stop.
I mostly post in IFP and we have talked a lot about this manipulation. The reviewer/moderator likened Dean to Lady Macbeth in season 8, and even sees the manic caretaking as somewhat manipulative, like stage moms giving their kids sugar and caffeine so they perform well. It’s subtle but we think it’s there. LOL at tbis point It is just the two of us. Almost everyone else has given up because they are so angry that Sam never apologizes, Dean apologized for the text, Dean abandoned and killed Benny, and Sam blamed Dean again in Sacrifice by turning it all to Sam being hurt by Dean turning to Cas and Benny. They are afraid that Sam will now try to control Dean by threat of suicide because abandonment no longer works. I disagree as does Paula. Carver is a fantastic writer and the premier and finale gives us the main mest of the season. The themes are hammered throughout and all of the MotW gave hints and subtext. He’s shifting all of the characters so that the show moves forward. He’s changing them to remove the things that bogged their arcs and the writing down. He’s set Dean up to have a big arc and one that’s believable considering his character and what he’s been through. If you think humanizing Sam, Cas and Crowley is daring, how about having them deal with a Dean that goes off the rails. How many times has Dean come up with an over the top, outside the box solution to save them. Who will do it for Dean. And I think having Dean go dark is the other thing that has to happen to build the show up again. I think it’s probably as essential to having Sam apologize. Can you imagine Purgatory Dean coming out to play permanently on earth? can you imagine what that dude would do? It would be a lot of fun and pretty scary.
[quote]Now we have: on the right side of the ring, amyh, defending Sam, and on the left side of the ring castiels cat, for Dean.
Let’s NOT let the fight begin.[/quote]
[quote]Now we have: on the right side of the ring, amyh, defending Sam, and on the left side of the ring castiels cat, for Dean.
Let’s NOT let the fight begin.[/quote]
Your very right ale. I apologize to the other posters.
To be honest people I suggest abandoning this thread to the bashers (and there has been 10 times as much Sam-bashing as of anyone else) and trying to have a civilized discussion elsewhere.
I am sure the Bobby thread would welcome other concepts, we can always bring all ideas back to Bobby eventually.
[quote][quote]Now we have: on the right side of the ring, amyh, defending Sam, and on the left side of the ring castiels cat, for Dean.
Let’s NOT let the fight begin.
Your very right ale. I apologize to the other posters.[/quote]
I don’t feel you entirely deserved that comment Amyh, at least you make your point and move on.
Yikes! I can’t believe I’m going to respond to Castiels Cat again. What I meant by these are Dean’s issues is that if Dean can’t get past it then he needs to cut Sam loose. Otherwise let it go. I believe when he told Sam to let it go in the church he was also telling himself to let it go (and maybe the fans as well). A thought occurred to me while I was out cleaning stalls. Everything that has happened since the end of S2 is entirely on Dean. Sam had died innocent. He was in heaven with Jessica at peace. Dean made a deal that brought Sam brutally back to his battered body with a darkened soul. Dean had no way to know that of course, but he made the deal because he couldn’t go on alone. And look what came of it. Sam and Dean had vowed not to make the same mistake again, so as painful as it must have been for Sam he let Dean go. I know that some fans are never going to let this issue go but that is my take on the situation. By the way I don’t put any blame on Dean for anything he has ever done. These 2 guys are doing impossible things in impossible situations and doing the absolute best that they can do.
Sorry I didn’t see the post pleading for this discussion to be dropped. Consider it dropped.
[quote]I don’t feel you entirely deserved that comment Amyh, at least you make your point and move on.[/quote]
I agree, Amyh. You made your point and did not belabor it. I appreciate that you are not going to continue the argument here.
[quote]To be honest people I suggest abandoning this thread to the bashers (and there has been 10 times as much Sam-bashing as of anyone else) and trying to have a civilized discussion elsewhere.
I am sure the Bobby thread would welcome other concepts, we can always bring all ideas back to Bobby eventually.[/quote]
The Bobby thread is a good place to start. I’ll contact the mods and let them know, maybe they can set up a speculation thread with NO character discussion.
My posts started on page 9. Before that point there was plenty of blaming Dean and Benny for Sam’s actions. Why is believing that Sam should take responsibility for his actions bashing. Dean admitted he made a mistake and apologized. Am I bashing Dean because I think he was a dick to send that text and I am happy he apologized? No. And likewise I am not bashing Sam to expect him to also behave responsibly. I think a 30+ year old man needs to stop with the temper tantrums; running away and lashing out is not admirable or mature behavior. Do I think Dean is a hardass and difficult personality at times. Hell yes, even Bobby that loved him like a son says he acts like he has PMS sometimes. When Sam called him out on things we have seen Dean apologize. When Sam, Kevin or Garth call Dean out on his bitchiness which they find hurtful, Doesn’t stomp off or tell them it’s their fault, or that theu did something bad too, or try to kill the friend that they believe is not killing. Dean even took criticism from Garth and changed his behavior. That kind of thing makes me like a character.
.
Cheryl42 … yes. I think the callbacks to s2 this season remind us of this history. Sam not dying is good. Sam not looking makes absolute sense. Dean being hurt makes sense. I think Dean wanted an apology because he was hurt. Dean apologized about the text because Sam was hurt. I don’t think Dean believes the text was wrong.
Honestly I did not start the discussion of characters in this thread. I responded to discussions earlier in this thread which I disagreed with and “bashed” Dean and Benny. Since I am not threatened by different opinions that I can’t fathom I chose to discuss my opinion. I ser that the standard operation here is to mock the different opinion, accuse the person of hating or bashing and complain to administration. Of Course this is exactly what I have been warned about this site.
For me, it is impossible to speculate without discussionof the iimportant themes from 8. Fast forwarding through the parts you don’t like or claiming bad writing or OoC behavior is not a logical response. How can you speculate if you dismiss episodes that you don’t like or focus on Sam’s hair exclusively to whatever is happening with Dean, Benny or Castiel.
Season spec. Sam is busy saving demons as atonement. He will apologize for things that he’s done in the past that he’s finally acknowledged as mistakes.
Castiel is becoming human and his arc will focus on character development.
Crowley is humanized he will help Sam cure demons, Dean cure Sam, and be pivotal in Abaddon’s arc.
Dean is driving the mytharc by the decisions he makes/has made and the changes in his character which were a steady undercurrent in season 8. He is becoming dark and the season 9 cliffhanger may show this in its full blossoming. If Death shows up it is because Dean f….. with the natural order. This will mirror season 2 except the result is Dark Dean not Demon Sam. Sam can fully redeem himself by loving Dean anyway and using their bond to save him. Eventually they work togethet TFW to fix a huge cf of a mess.
eyeroll over the high and mighty attitude of those who “bash” Dean and Benny all season yet run to mom because someone thinks Sam should apologize for his part in things and his mistakes. This is because fanon does not trump canon no matter how many words onr writes trying twist the show to one’s liking.
Hey guys! Your neighborhood moderator here. I’ve had complaints. I’m going to go through these comments soon to see if there’s any blatant character bashing going on, but I believe character bashing was clearly one of the rules for this otherwise loose thread. If I find any, that part of the comment will be edited. So watch your tone and please keep it within the spirit of the discussion. Thank you.
And people put their argument across that disagreed with yours [b]Castiels Cat[/b] . Sam does not need to atone and apologize that was done 3 yrs ago and dismissing that because you didnt like SS is none the less the truth. The writers I believe do not believe Sam has to atone because in their eyes Sam did have a reason not to look even if I did not like the writing and that Sam does not have a obligation to like Benny. Benny and Sam IMO came to a understanding in Purgatory and there is no futher need to do anything more.
Next season is not about the writers intention to have Sam futher atone when the angels falling were not his fault and it was the brother you favour who stopped Sam . Frankly if they went that route I would find it becoming ridiculous when a mere sorry from either Dean and Castiel apparently is good enough
What I want to see is a move away from that and allow Sam a much needed pov .
I apologize to Amyh and Castiel Cat. I confess my post was a bit on the dick side and neither of you deserved it.
In my defense, my intention was to prevent a fight. I saw too passionate people on opposing sides and I, very clumsy and in a very bad way tried to avoid a blood bath. My intention was good, though.
Maybe I was too much inspired by all the Amelia/Benny text discussion.
In response to #250 (cause I know that this reply is going to end up miles away from the original post!)
Castiel’s Cat these are all great ideas… better than mine that’s for sure. My only issue is the timing; supposedly the teaser for episode 2 (which I didn’t see btw) aired at Comicon showed Sam already healed by the time they get back to the bat cave, so what ever Dean does it’s resolved by then, so probably not something they find in the bat cave. I don’t think Dean would re-do all the trials, certainly not in the space of a single episode anyway, and it only takes one ep for Sam’s cure. Also, if Dean did the trials wouldn’t he be in the same predicament as Sam, ie certain death? And that wouldn’t address that what ever this cure is, it’s going to affect Sam over a number of episodes in some way. No, it’s got to be something that Sam takes or goes through, not something that Dean goes through although it may be something Dean does, which could be kind of cool. I don’t want another demon deal though (hello, king of the crossroads’ chained up in a church just waiting to make a deal!). Death maybe? Angel possession? possibly? I like the Phoenix idea, but again that turns an issue that is clearly about Sam and his troubles into something about Dean, which I don’t think will work all that well. Sam’s story needs it’s own resolution and Dean needs his own story that is about him. Not that I don’t want each brother to be involved in each other’s story, but I hate it when one character hijack’s another’s thread (Castiel taking Sam’s crazy. 😮 ) I also don’t want either of the guys to be impervious to danger or death in any way because it completely kills the drama. It’s zero fun if there is no actual danger to either of them, which if Dean was becoming the phoenix or Sam was becoming an angel (probably not happening) it makes them too powerful and impervious to danger; boring!
I love all your speculation though… I’d love this to keep going….
You know what, this might seem like a cop out, but I’ve been reading several pages of arguments right now and honestly, character bashing is happening on all sides. I’m all for lively discussion and each post has given what I love to see in discussions, a unique POV. Some very good points have been made.
One thing that is happening though is that is seems the posts have gotten into “beating dead horses” territory. The proper way to end a discussion is “We agree to disagree.” I saw that from a couple of posters and that’s how we do it. That means move on. So I’ll say right here, let’s go back to speculating about season nine. Yes, in speculation for season nine, there will be some prior season analysis required depending on your point. But stop it with “Sam is immature and should apologize, Dean was being a dick, I love/hate Benny” and all that stuff. The points have been noted, and are on record. We really want to know how this will be relevant to season nine.
I am sorry if I upset anyone. Understanding character motivation is important to me. Dean as a character with a valid viewpoint is important to me. I love That he apologizes just as i love that he no longer takes all of the blame. I really hate blaming it all on Benny who was the best thing ever for Dean in a lot of ways. Who else but Benny accepts Dean without complaint.
I was remiss in forgetting to note that the origin of the knight motif and Parsifal connection belongs to Paula Stiles at IFP. She cottoned onto it as soon as Carver mentoned Indiana Jones. With all of Dean’s talk of war and purity in the premier, soldier bonds and honor in tge premier, she was spot on.
Finally, in my opinion a lot of dean’s season 7 depression happened because Csstiel “died” and because it happened before the air was cleared between them. Leaving with Cas in Sacrifice after being livid in clip show is Dean making amends with cas before it’s too late. it had nothing to do with trusting Cas less.
In kind I think Dean was doing the same thing with Sam once the trials started. Dean who suffered purgatory for s year and who well knows ever success has come with a failure shortly to follow knew without a doubt in TaE that closing the gates would claim a big price. he sury knew Sam was dying. I am just glad he snapped out of the zone in time to realize that his brother was more important.
Alice might I suggest that you put another sparkly in front of us. Maybe some more pretty pictures. You know we are easily distracted.
Quoting Amyh, “now depending if crowley is on in the premiere, it is possible that dean goes to him because as of this moment he still is suffering from humanity. so he may give dean the answer to healing sam simply because he can’t resist doing so.”
Nice, I like this! I was sort of pondering something along these lines but hadn’t formulated my own thoughts as well as this. And this cure has to be a bit shady or weird or something, so that Dean feels compelled to keep it a secret. I don’t mind a few secrets between the boys, they do it all the time, I just want the secret to make sense… give Dean a good reason to want to keep it, like the “Save Sam or Kill him” secret.. it was a no brainer as to why Dean didn’t want to talk about that one. Sam keeping the demon blood and Ruby a secret made sense to me too… Benny? Not so much… trials illness… not so much either.
@ Ale #263
Okay I’ve been away all day and I’m just back so missed a lot was said but this is the first one in response to something I said – firstly I was saying what I said about the demon blood because it was being discussed and it is pertinent to what happened in season 8. I want Sam to have a complete human story, which is better served by the way Castiels Cat is talking than what has happened in the last couple of seasons – Sam has a supernatural cause and effect and personal responsibility without a supernatural edge isn’t fully played out.
As for Dean, yes Dean acted like a bit of a dick with Kevin, personally I preferred him chewing Kevin out than him being nice handing him pep pills and tell him not to OD, but saying that even with the stress causing Dean to be a dick, there is no long drawn out conversation with regard to why he is one – Dean being a dick, is him being a dick. In the End, the one time he had a great excuse to be a dick, Dean himself called himself a dick, not that version of me is a dick but….
Though I think one reaction from that confrontation is Kevin actually focusing on what is truly happening around him. Previously Kevin was still focusing on the out, but he’s capable (he hide for so long by himself) he’s got a task to do as a prophet of the lord and like it or not the only way he is getting out of that is dying so it is his choice, mature and deal with it or stay immature and be everyone else’s pawn. The later is something I don’t want to see and it something a leader does not want to see in his assets either – if Kevin is still a immature mess then he is more of a liability rather than an asset and they need him to be an asset or out.
It isn’t nice and it isn’t pretty but it ties in with purgatory Dean who first came back and gave Kevin a hard time about now being in just after his girlfriend was killed.
@301
Speculation for season 9 (this isn’t going to be the overall mytharc, just one of the sidearcs).
Papa John (actually, isn’t that also the name of a pizza franchise? I might want to stop calling him that…). Anyway, not-the-pizza Papa John, rises from the ashes (the ashes in this case obviously being water).
[img]http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/bg/Jeffrey+Dean+Morgan+beach+trip+baby+son+Gus+prVzH8qW2Jpx.jpg[/img]
The child in his arms is either some random child he saved on his way to his arising (probable, cos that’s the kind of thing John does) or it’s his own child that he had to sire in order to save the world (cos Sam and Dean keep making an absolute balls of it!) Who the child actually is will be (might be, if they remember) answered in the next season.
Once John is up and dried himself off and combed his hair and had some pizza and stuff, he goes off and does his thing. John Winchester doesn’t answer to man, beast, angel or demon so what his thing is, no-one knows (we might find out in season 10). However, the question remains as to whether John Winchester [i]is[/i] John Winchester cos the dude has been everywhere. The evidence mounts up throughout the season.
(1) All he drinks is coffee
[img]http://jeffreydeanmorganunlimited.com/wp-content/gallery/the-resident-hi-res/jeffrey-dean-morgan-the-resident-hqmata1.jpg[/img]
or whiskey.
[img]http://handson.provocateuse.com/images/photos/jeffrey_dean_morgan_04.jpg[/img]
(Actually, that might be cold tea. I don’t know, I’m not a drinker.)
(2) He wears layers
[img]http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/f5/7d/99/f57d99ed7aecb8affca275f3d283361e.jpg[/img]
(3) He wears plaid
[img]http://jeffreydeanmorganunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/takingwodstock_jeffreydeanmorgan1.jpg[/img]
(4) He already knows how to see hellhounds.
[img]http://pmcmovieline.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/jeffrey-dean-morgan-possession.jpg?w=630[/img]
(Actually, I wonder if you did the same thing with a pair of hard contact lenses would you be able to see hellhounds wearing contacts. That would be handy, considering how easily Sam and Dean lose their glasses.)
(5) He has already been a ghost (fairly standard fare for any Winchester these days).
[img]http://megganconnors.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/jeffrey.jpg[/img]
(6) He has epic hair. (Ah, he really does. It’s like a mixture of Dean’s spikes with Sam’s colour, texture and a touch of derring-do)
[img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4thiwUiK41r5nwoso1_500.jpg[/img]
(7) He looks as hot as hell with a gun.
[img]http://cdn.chud.com/6/6e/6e6811c2_jeffrey-dean-morgan.jpeg[/img]
(Oh lads, would you just [i]look[/i] at him!!!)
(8) He looks hotter than hell as an FBI agent at the end of a long day.
[img]http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/30300000/-JDM-jeffrey-dean-morgan-30357305-636-676.jpg[/img]
This is all very convincing evidence that John is John (and there was much rejoicing).
However…….
In the last shot of the season 9 we see……
[img]http://www.rockerilla.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/texas-killing-fields-jeffrey-dean-morgan-in-una-foto-del-film-214092.gif[/img]
John wearing the angel uniform; a white shirt and a tie!! Noooo! Could John Winchester be an angel? (I mean, in the literal sense of the word, not the other weird sense of the word that people use when they’re talking about babies and stuff). He’s also in a fairly rugged setting so could John be in Purgatory? He does have that ‘Ah, for feck sake, not this shit again’ look on his face, so it is possible.
Tune in next season.
Speculation complete.
@ Castiels Cat
I like the idea of souls being tied into curing Sam rather than DB or angels because it ties in with him having a human story – souls tend to be human, their power is human.
It would be nice for once if Sam is going to be changing because he is cured it is something to do with being human. In part maybe he takes on part of the souls he takes in, hence the comment about Jared worrying about not doing the changes justice.
Thanks Tim that was freakin’ awesome!!
Quoting eilf
[quote]The ‘Rudy hobbit’ thing could be a clue forshadowing that?[/quote]eilf
I hope not. Personally I’m hoping that the Samwise shoutout was simply put in because it sounded good and nothing else. Just like the Grand Canyon and Mesopotamia bits.
The one thing I did like about Gamble’s season 6 was it didn’t really talk down to you with regard to the Lovecraft references, it didn’t expect you to be 100% aware of his books but didn’t go into lengths with regard to what type of horror he wrote. And what with Charlie reading the hobbit to her mother, if you are taking it as foreshadowing you have to take it as them meaning the books and not the films and in those Samwise was the Tommy/batman and Frodo the officer. Samwise may have been a hero but he was socially and intellectually lesser than Frodo because that is what the social structure was. Bringing up that imagery up with two brothers and say it is foreshadowing is like saying that it doesn’t matter what Sam and Dean do, Dean will always be lesser than Sam is.
[quote]Quoting eilf
[quote]The ‘Rudy hobbit’ thing could be a clue forshadowing that?[/quote]eilf
I hope not. Personally I’m hoping that the Samwise shoutout was simply put in because it sounded good and nothing else. Just like the Grand Canyon and Mesopotamia bits.
The one thing I did like about Gamble’s season 6 was it didn’t really talk down to you with regard to the Lovecraft references, it didn’t expect you to be 100% aware of his books but didn’t go into lengths with regard to what type of horror he wrote. And what with Charlie reading the hobbit to her mother, if you are taking it as foreshadowing you have to take it as them meaning the books and not the films and in those Samwise was the Tommy/batman and Frodo the officer. Samwise may have been a hero but he was socially and intellectually lesser than Frodo because that is what the social structure was. Bringing up that imagery up with two brothers and say it is foreshadowing is like saying that it doesn’t matter what Sam and Dean do, Dean will always be lesser than Sam is.[/quote]
Well as with Supernatural we have different opinions of the importance of the various characters in Lord of the Rings too. We can agree to differ
It seems pretty clear that several of the side characters, Cas and Crowley in particular were going to be developed more thoroughly this year, probably to give J and J more time off. It that is the case, I was kind of hoping that one of the side stories we get could be about the precarious situation that Crowley now finds himself in. I loved the perplexed, WTF am I saying Crowley we got in 8×23; he seemed to be genuinely relating to Sam totally against his will. I’d love for him to be feeling some morality and guilt etc.. but fighting it tooth and nail, trying to get back to his old evil self but not having much luck, occasionally blindsided by empathy and compassion. I’d love to see Sam and Crowley strike up a strange and suspicious friendship of sorts, Crowley is after all carrying around some of Sam’s blood. It would be just like Supernatural to take some of the fanwank that’s been prevalent (Sam needs a friend is one I’ve seen time and time again this past season) and give us fans some fan service but in a most unexpected and out of whack kind of way. I love it when the show takes the expected, trite, tried and true TV tropes and turns them on their heads.
@ eilf
I’m not saying Samwise is a less important character in the LOTR, just what he was in LOTR social class wise than Frodo was, intellectually – he was taught to read by Bilbo, he owed his book learning to the Baggins.
Which is fine when you are talking about a 19th century British rural relationship but a bit uncomfortable when talking about two brothers in the 21st if it is foreshadowing though makes a nice conversation piece in a car driving along if isn’t more than Dean saying he wants to help when he can.
But again we can disagree.
@E
It would be interesting to see how Crowley reacts with Sam’s blood in his veins. Though rl me goes that part of it should involve a huge ABO incompatibility reaction due to the probability that Sam and Crowley not being the same blood type so Crowley should be in huge amounts of pain. 🙂 It would be interesting if it turns out the demon cure is to do with the demons suffering from the wrong blood type being pumped into the veins of their host.