Let’s Discuss: Supernatural and Meeting Fan Expectations
This week’s “Let’s Discuss†topic is actually one that’s been weighing on my mind a lot over the last few months. Last week’s topic on expectations for the rest of season 8 pushed this idea back to the forefront, so I think it’s time to discuss.
This past weekend the Salute to Supernatural fan convention in Las Vegas was held (sweetondean was there and should have one or more reports for us soon). Often at cons, and this weekend was no exception, fans love to send messages through the actors, questioning why this was done or why that isn’t being done. Considering they’re not the writers, the actors usually can’t do more than explain they act what’s on the page, but could be in agreement with the fan about certain creative decisions or plot points. Jared and Jensen have shared on occasion how they got to change a line or two, but usually that doesn’t have an impact on the overall story or where the arc is going.
Cons are often a reminder to me that vocal fans are nothing new to television. Since the advent of twitter and social media, TV fans more than ever have access to writers and showrunners and are using that to get their voices heard. Many think that by making constant and repeated demands online, that will get attention and get the show to do what they want. Except there are plenty of overlapping demands and small factions trying to get their agendas heard, and that often creates quite a bit of noise and mutually exclusive wishes.
While I’ve never had the opportunity to address this fan behavior with “Supernatural†producers or writers, I did have the chance to bring it up with Julie Plec, Executive Producer and showrunner for The Vampire Diaries, last summer at Comic Con. She, unlike Jeremy Carver, is on Twitter and gets a never ending barrage of fan feedback, both good and bad. Sometimes, the attacks and outcries are really vicious. I asked her, do the complaints from vocal fans change the way she approaches stories, or does she follow her own path regardless? Her answer reflects perfectly the kind of tap dance that showrunners must follow when breaking stories:
“It definitely leaves a loud imprint in our creative brains and then we have to work hard as creative people to fill that in and smooth it out so that we can stay on the road. It’s difficult not to hear it because it’s right there in front of you and it’s very, very passionate. But you also have no idea where it’s coming from. Is it coming from one person with 150 names, is it coming from a fifty year old, a twelve year old, is it coming from one small faction of people? So what I try to do every time I find myself getting defensive or distracted by that passion, I’ll go to my friends who watch the show and I’ll say, ‘So, what do you watch the show for, why do you love the show?’ And they’re like, ‘It’s just awesome and it (has) great stories.’ I’ll go, ‘No really, what about Damon?’ and they’ll say, ‘I love Damon; Damon’s amazing.’ I’ll ask, ‘How do you feel about Stefan?’ and they’ll say, ‘I love Stefan.’
It takes me back to what I was saying in the panel earlier, I remember watching love triangles as a TV fan and kind of rooting for both sides. And I think many people, not all obviously, are like that. I try to stay on their path and tell the right stories for the characters and for the show. The show is a love triangle that is meant to run for a very long time. It’s not always going to be the driving force for the show but the sense of premise is two vampires in love with one girl move to a small town. That’s our show. That’s the Alcatraz of our Alcatraz – the island of our lust. We got to keep it alive, keep it honest, keep it fluid and that’s what we definitely have to do. I don’t think necessarily people who just want it to happen understand that it’s a long marathon.â€
Fans want things to happen. There are always reasons behind that, and showrunners as part of their job have learned to filter through the noise and stay on the path. I’ve used this quote before, but I love how Damon Lindelof of “Lost†made light of his dilemma that fans expected him and the other writers to have a concrete plan, but they also expected them to listen to their demands. Now how does that follow plan? How could they possibly meet all the demands? It can never be both, but fans didn’t stop making that demand anyway.
Every time I read from a fan, “Why won’t they listen to us?†or “Why don’t they fix this glaring problem?†it’s usually coming from a passionate fan that thinks they’re in the majority, not the minority. As Julie Plec eluded, if anything minor corrections can be done here and there, but they have to stick with vision. The first rule of television writing not only sanity’s sake but in order to meet the tough schedules and tight deadlines of a TV production is to stay on the forged path and basic underlying premise of the show. They are following the long storytelling progression that comes with network television, not the instant gratification.
Sometimes it takes seasons to get things addressed. Remember Mary Winchester’s “I’m sorry†in “Home†in season one? That wasn’t addressed until season four. Dean didn’t find out about Sam being infected with demon blood for more than a season after Sam found out. Brotherly issues are constantly surfacing all the time, most recently with Dean’s rant in “Southern Comfort,†which dug back to Sam’s actions in season four and season six as well as recently. That’s the fabric of the show. Two brothers pushed into a life of hunting the supernatural and the often tense relationship between the two. Anything in the past is fair game.
The issue right now for some fans (and yes, it’s only some) is they can’t get past the idea that Sam didn’t look for Dean after he went to Purgatory. The daily demands on this site alone that this be addressed is dizzying! There are those going so far to say that the show is ruined for them if this isn’t resolved. Except it is resolved. The characters in the story have moved on and gotten past it.
That doesn’t mean that the writers aren’t ever going back to that plot thread. Probably not this season, but who’s to say that it won’t be dealt with someday? Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. I think that in following the course of the story, if the dramatic timing is right to have that talk, it’ll be done. If not, it’s just another loose plot thread that is often left to the imagination in these TV shows. It’s a marathon, not a sprint.
Now, I’m not defending the creative decisions that have been made. They haven’t been perfect, and writers know that. But nothing has “ruined†the show for me. There are some creative decisions in season seven that I vehemently did not like (*cough* Bobby *cough*) but I’m still watching and I’m still entertained. If the day happens when I’m no longer entertained, then that becomes the time to walk away. I’ve done that with a lot of TV shows. However, I have to be pretty damned miserable for that to happen.
So what am I proposing for discussion? Imagine you are a writer for “Supernatural.†How do you balance the constant fan demands with the plan that’s been forged? Is what Julie Plec said following the correct approach to you? How do you filter through the noise of the overlapping demands like Sam is acting out of character and doesn’t have a strong plot, or Dean is acting out of character and doesn’t have a strong plot, or Castiel is acting out or character and doesn’t have a strong plot, or that one or all of them have too much plot? Or what about things like “When can this character come back?†or “Will we ever see the amulet again?â€
How much impact should fan feedback have on a TV show? Do you want the plan or do you want to see a show that caters to fan desires? Or, are you one of those just happy with watching every week and will take or leave what you’re given, leaving an opinion on a site like this and then moving on?
For all the unhappy fans, what’s your breaking point with “Supernatural?†What will get you to stop watching entirely? What will bring you back in favor if you’re currently out of favor? Can your relationship with this show be fixed now if it is broken?
For you happy fans out there, how much faith do you have in the creative process? Do you have a 100 percent trust in the writers, or do you still have skepticisms that keep you on the fence?
As a reminder, “Let’s Discuss†topics are free zones so veering off topic or proposing new ones isn’t a problem. However, you must follow our basic rules, primarily show others respect. No personal attacks. This is the only warning.
Okay, time to discuss!
I love this post because it’s so true that so many fans have huge expectations of the show and put a lot of pressure on the actors, crew, and writers. I for one, although being vocal about what I like on my blog, have never tweeted at TPTB wit complaints because, in all fairness, they’re just doing their job. There have been a lot of things that I don’t agree with (-cough season 7 cough-), but it’s never made me want to stop watching the show.
I trust the writers, and so far, I’ve been pretty down with season 8. I don’t think anything is going to make me stop watching the show, because I still have faith that things will play out for the best. The only thing that would severely bother me would be if Castiel turned to the dark side and became a villain. Castiel is by far my favorite character on the show and I would hate to see him killed or made into an enemy of the boys. I’m optimistic that Misha has been given regular status and is going to be directing an episode next season, but a lot of this Manchurian Candidate stuff, as Misha put it, and the extended promo for episode 17 have made me a little bit nervous about Castiel’s fate.
This is Bamboo24 –
I can’t log in! I can’t log in! lol
Alice, what am doing wrong? :p
Thank you for this wonderful write.
As a “happy” fan, I can say I am usually quite satisfied with the creative processes in Supernatural. Look at all they have done and given us! I would venture to say they deliver on average, 8 to 9 times out of 10. And considering how much effort goes into a TV like this, and how many years they’ve been on air, that’s amazing when you think about it.
Every fan that I have encountered has a “least favorite season” where they really didn’t like the story arcs. Mine was S7. I was unhappy with most of the creative direction and presentation that season. But still, I was the happiest fan alive when I found out the show was renewed for S8.
Likewise, there are few writers who, based on their history, many fans groan at when they see that they’re the author of the next episode’s script. But what can you do? It’s too high of an expectation, I would argue, to be totally satisfied every single week. We’re very blessed, IMO, to have only a 1-3 duds per each 23 episode season.
I think about other weekly shows I watch – Hawaii 5.0 for instance. I’d say every other week there’s a forgettable episode. Sometimes it’s only worth watching every couple of months. And that’s a hit show.
I think the problem is that it’s hard for many fans to keep perspective when they’re emotions are so tangled up in this show. I’m guilty of it too – you can go on over to the spoiler page about episode 18 and read my extremely ridiculous rant (ridiculous only because it breaks my cardinal rule of not judging an episode before it airs).
But in reality – everything you wrote about the time and budget and creativity restraints; not to mention the plethora of “fan noise” and not knowing where it’s coming from or how it should be evaluated – it’s all true.
It’s all too easy to rant and rave behind a computer screen about how the writers are ignorant of how a storyline is affecting fans – but if it wasn’t that we’d be ranting and raving about how there’s no vision, etc. We can’t have it both ways. Personally I’d rather have them follow a vision that is creative and true than to cater to fan whims. The latter would most certainly lack creativity, energy, quality, and authenticity.
When it comes down to it – if something bothers me terribly about a TV show – I stop watching. But obviously nothing yet on SPN – even during S7 – was enough to bring me to that point. I think it’s because, even though I may disagree with the direction, and even the presentation, I NEVER feel that whoever is acting/directing/writing/showrunning doesn’t care or is just going through the motions. I know they are giving it their all – it’s evident in everything they do, even 8 season in, even in storylines I think are terrible. And that’s where the faith and trust come in.
I guess I view my relationship with Supernatural kind of like a marriage. I’m loyal “in good times and bad”, “for better or worse”, because I believe the love and the heart and the passion is still there…even in the duds.
I am vocal as any fan about the things I dislike/disagree with, but at some point, IMO, you have to move on, otherwise it isn’t fun anymore. It isn’t entertaining. And the moment this stops being entertaining is the moment I say goodbye. You know? Life’s too short to be bitter about a 42 min. TV show. 🙂
And I think you sum up things beautifully here:
[quote]The issue right now for some fans (and yes, it’s only some) is they can’t get past the idea that Sam didn’t look for Dean after he went to Purgatory. The daily demands on this site alone that this be addressed is dizzying! There are those going so far to say that the show is ruined for them if this isn’t resolved. Except it is resolved. The characters in the story have moved on and gotten past it.
That doesn’t mean that the writers aren’t ever going back to that plot thread. Probably not this season, but who’s to say that it won’t be dealt with someday? Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. I think that in following the course of the story, if the dramatic timing is right to have that talk, it’ll be done. If not, it’s just another loose plot thread that is often left to the imagination in these TV shows. It’s a marathon, not a sprint.
[/quote]
Truly, it’s all about perspective.
Bamboo, completely on the same page with you!! Big surprise there, huh. The truth is I will NEVER stop watching this show. I have my disappointments (ditto S7) but I am in for the long haul and even though I might have wished they had done some things differently, I always appreciate the effort that goes in to making this show. OK maybe I wasn’t that appreciative of Mans Best Friend….. BUT I know that they did not set out to make a stinker 🙂
Omg…did I really just use “they’re” instead of “their”? U
Ugh. Shoot me.
I am not in favor of fans impacting the story othet than to reaot through feedback. Anyhow I think numbers are the main factor they consider. All the controversy has generated huge internet buzz.
For the record on other sites there has been a lot of discussion about how Dean once again has no story except to react to Sam and cas and Benny. I know several people that have stopped watching and many others that will finish out the season before making a decision. I for one have been appalled at the writing of the last few episodes. These writers seem to think Dean is a plot tool dumbing him down and making him act like a buffoon at will. What happened to the no-nonsense killer that emerged from Purgatory? Or the PTSD? I still see signs of it but many do not. I have not seen such anger since Swan Song.
Thanks Alice, interesting topic. Yes wunderpat, count me in the ‘Dean is now only the cheerleader’ camp after the inexplicable Trial and Error episode. For the life of me I can’t understand why the writers would give Dean this big heroic speech and then basically set him up to fail so Sam could save the day and be the only one to save the day again. AND to suggest that Dean is suicidal – seriously?!?!? Having said all this, I have only vented about this once (now twice 😀 ) as there is little point except to let out my frustration. In no way however, would my extreme disappointment in this turn of story stop me watching my favourite TV show (ever!!) and my favourite TV character (ever!!) Dean Winchester.
I am with you about the bad writing, wunderpat. The dumbing down of Dean is also a problem for me, as well as him being relegated to being barely more than a supporting player in the show. I don’t understand it and it is the thing that will make me stop watching. My enthusiasm for the show has been so dampened by the persistant disrespect for the character of Dean that if it hasn’t improved by the end of the season, I will not tune in in the Fall.
I also want to like Sam again. The writing for him has been all over the place this year.
The break for me was Trial and Error, and I have stopped watching for the first time in years because of the treatment of Dean once AGAIN. I am in full support of the campaign for Dean to have an equal storyline to everyone else. A storyline that is important enough for the writers and producers to talk about when teasing about up coming episodes. Something beyond the usual worrying and revolving around others. The thing is, we shouldn’t have to ask for this. So many other tv shows allow all their lead characters to have equal, central to the plot storylines, that are all worthy of discussion and get the fans excited. Why not the same for Supernatural. Why should the Dean fans have to sit back and not complain that every time real exciting spoilers come out and everyone is excitedly discussing new upcoming episodes, Dean is always left out and his fans have nothing to discuss. It completely ruins the fandom experience for them. Whenever the crew tweet about amazing, exciting plot twists, Dean fans have had to learn not to expect it to involve Dean because heaven forbid there be anything important that involves him. I thought that maybe, finally, with his trip to Purgatory, things would be changing for Dean, and his fans, and loved the first few epsiodes but then like almost everything Dean related it got dropped and now he’s back in his default position, worrying about everyone else while they’re deeply embedded in whatever trials and tribulations they have.
Why is it so hard for the writers to create a mytharc with three important plots that tie to Dean, Sam and now Castiel – here’s hoping for season 9.
First thanks for starting this thread & also sharing your experience alice.
I am a Sam girl and my only complain is when will he stop getting all the blame ? When was the last time we had a Sam pov episode ? Seriously this show has a mantra let the youngest suffer and the Sam!whumpage is just painful.
About the not watching part I will stop watching the show if Sam is not there which is never.
ps- I never tweet to any TPTB. It’s just hurt when people unnecessary blame Sam for everything in other sites causing us Sam!fans to become bitter probably.
I don’t really go into anything with Sam with expectation . A hope maybe but I just would like them to stop putting him in the ‘proverbial’ for a character that has suffered the bad press he has had already.
I just cant change my mind Amelia the whole thing was poorly done .
Alice – good timing on this topic. Given everything that happened to Sam in S6/S7, I could understand why TPTB decided to go with the controversial decision of Sam not looking for Dean. Granted, it was OOC for Sam but it kind of made sense after Sam’s return from Hell, getting his soul back, the wall breaking, suffering a break down, etc. However, if the objective of the Sam/Amelia flashbacks was to explain this, then IMO the writers failed.
There have been some inconsistencies in how Sam/Dean are being written in the last few episodes but overall it’s been a good season; vast improvement over S7. The writers do need to be careful, though; at times they are almost turning Dean in to a caricature of himself.
Finally, completely agree with Bamboo24 about moving on – seems the same things are being rehashed to death on this site.
Alice, very good subject for a thread. Thank you.
Concerning SPN, the only thing I expect from the writers is the commitment to develop a good, thoughtful, well planed writing and season. For me, SPN differs from other shows because of that – the boldness to write a story that is not mainstream, to address so many hard subjects but subtly, without real complete resolution, as in without the pretense to give us a ‘moral’ answer to them, giving us plenty space for great debates. And all of this with so much heart (J&J – thank you so much!!), so much honest emotion that compel us to keep watching, faithfully and earnestly.
IMO, because of these factors, SPN surpasses the point of just ‘entertainment’, since I got accustomed to expect MORE from the show. I don’t care what they chose to write, and want to be in blown away – just because I was ill accustomed to be.
Therefore, what would disappoint me would be the writers not to put the same love and care in the story as usual. This is not, and never was, just a story about two brothers that kill monsters and demons.
Excellent topic!
Well everyone, I have only one thing to say on this…Expectations will ruin everything for you!
Remember the hype and excitement of a movie you have been looking forward to forever, then you go see it and it stunk?
We our our own worst enemies when it comes to expectations. Keep your minds open and trust that the writers have a plan. (Please, I really don’t want them to STRIKE on us again. That hurt)
We all have different favorite and stinky moments in every show. (I didn’t think s7 was THAT bad) See…another opinion.
I love the show (especially Sam and Dean) and will probably never stop watching the show.
So my final response. Lose the lofty expectations.You will be pleasantly surprised at how much more enjoyment you will get from the show. Get too high and you will be disappointed every time.
SPN Forever!
Exactly! Expectations over a show or movie have disappointed me many times over the years and I’ve learned it’s best to not have them. Expect the unexpected is the safer bet.
I also agree that I’ll continue to watch. I’ve definitely been upset with events as everyone has i.e. Bobby, the amulet (a personal biggie) Sam’s ooc actions but I also know that this is television. It’s NEVER going to satisfy my every desire. If it were up to me we’d have Sam & Dean brotherly love awesomeness every episode…but that’s not going to happen.
On the flip side I’m so happy with the MOL storyline, Sam’s doing the trials & knowing that Dean will have a huge roll to play.
That being said I hope that the writers really aren’t that swayed by vocal fans, because the vocal fans are not always an indicator of what the majority wants. That can certainly work for you or against you.
I will continue to watch. It would take a huge misstep at this point for me to quit. As long as Sam and Dean are hunting and fighting evil together I’ll remain a fan!
The amulet was so, so upsetting for me. That had such meaning, and Dean just threw it away. Sam looked so hurt by that, too. And about the Sam and Dean brotherly love…that’s something that has really been bothering the past..wow..3 seasons. Season 1-5 had so many brotherly moments. am when he finally opened up about hell, Sam and Dean crying together over their dad and the night that Dean got sent to hell and he just looked at Sam crying and smiled, how Dean sat there talking to Sam’s body and after selling his soul walked back into the room and gave him the biggest hug ever….same when he got back from hell, Dean teaching Sam about the impala for when he was gone, when Dean had that heart problem and him and Sam played the Ouija board together….I could go on and on). Now, even when Bobby died they didn’t even shed a tear. Sam didn’t even TRY looking for Dean when he got sent to purgatory, he didn’t try to talk to Dean for a year after he got back from hell and hunted on his own, how Dean had like a little moment over Ben and Lisa and told Sam he’d break his nose if he ever brought them up again, how Sam told Dean to “move on or I will” when Dean kept bringing up purgatory, and of course the fight where Sam chose the demon over him, and the whole scene where Dean had picked up the unlucky penny and told Sam how horrible of a person he was basically and how Benny had been more of a brother to him than Sam ever did. I’ve said it before…it’s strictly business between them now. It’s really upsetting how much they’ve messed up their relationship since their brotherly bond was what made the show, and now they’ve basically destroyed that. The moments they’ve had have almost seemed forced. The only good one so far was when Dean told Sam his perfect ending would be for Sam to live a long life and have grandkids and be in love and how he would most likely die with a gun in his hand. Other than that…nothing. It’s hurtful because that was always my favorite part of the show is how someone like Dean, who was always so uptight about his emotions and always trying to be tough and pretend like everything was fine, would sometimes just totally break down to Sam (about how he felt about how he should have stayed dead after his dad sold his soul for him and sat there crying asking Sam what he could say to make that okay, sitting there literally bawling to Sam about torturing souls in hell even though the next episode at first he acted really awkward about it, which is normal for someone who tries to always act strong and put together) and trust Sam with that, and how Sam would do the same (even though I’m sure we can all agree Sam is way more sensitive than Dean is).
One of my biggest things though is how OOC they have acted recently. Always angry at each other, Sam not looking for Dean (REALLY upset me, I really hope they explain that in a future episode instead of just trying to say ‘move on or I will’ about it), and how neither of them even hardly seemed phased by Bobby’s death. They both broke down multiple times over their dad, but when Bobby died they both just kinda sat around and never really brought him up again. I was also kind of upset how Dean never talked to Sam about Lisa and Ben. That was a huge deal, and Sam was trying to tell him how he felt about the situation and Dean just looked at him while about to cry and told him to never bring it up again. They both have had so many secrets between them, and so many lies, and the episode in Southern Comfort at the end was really heartbreaking to hear Dean say to Sam how Benny had been more of a brother the past year than Sam ever had. How could you say that?! Sam would do ANYTHING for him and had, and he’s going to turn around and say that? I just really miss how they used to be with each other. It’s just, like I said, strictly business. I hope they add a really good brotherly moment with each other soon. They hardly have even fought together this season. Sam just seems really out of it ever since he took his year off, and you can just constantly sense tension between them (even Garth brought that up). I miss the simpler seasons where it was just demons and monsters and they both didn’t dislike everything.
Also to the person who mentioned how they kind of suggested Dean was suicidal…can we really say that’s surprising? Even back in season 2 when Sam got infected with that virus, Dean was saying to him how tired he was and how he didn’t really care if he went on or not. It isn’t surprising, especially knowing how little self worth he has, that he could possibly be suicidal.
Dear Alyssa
Your post arrived in my email just as I was switching off the computer but I wanted to answer and say how I thought your post was lovely and how it illustrated perfectly what Supernatural was all about.
I agree with every word.
The show may still be called Supernatural and Dean and Sam may make appearances ( more Dean than Sam as he is conveniently incapacitated when Dean has to get a private bondng session with the guest star of the week), but it’s no longer the same show; no longer about the brothers; the heartwarming, caring, epic story of Sam and Dean.
X
These writers have ruined what made SPN special; the brotherly bond, and have replaced it with a plethora of guest stars that no one particularly cares about.
These guest stars take up the centre stage now, promoted by those writers who have invented them and want to keep bringing them back, like Krissy.
X
The brother moments we have had feel completely false to me because the basis of the season has been the scientific demolition of that bond, starting with the utterly ridiculous and unexplained Sam ‘not-looking’, then building up to the terrible, as you point out, Dean’s ‘Benny is a better brother than you’ve ever been, ‘ which is just a horrible thing for the writers to have put in Dean’s mouth.
Just because Benny saved Dean’s life in Purgatory for reasons of his own, ( getting out ), in no way makes him equal to Sam.
Sam has saved his brother’s life repeatedly and has been shown to do anything for Dean! .
Just no.:(
X
Truth is, the brothers are no longer the focus of the show and that’s such a shame for I started to watch and continued to do so for Sam and Dean, but if the writers want to force another show on me then I will treasure my DVD’s of earlier seasons and pretend this new spn doesn’t exist.
To Bamboo24 I’mnNot Alice and not sure if you’ll see this, but have you cleared your cache and cookies? I have the Login button showing at the top of my page, and I was able to access the login screen, so maybe something got hung up on your system? Good Luck getting logged back in.
Thanks percy, I will try and figure that out. I’ve been having general issues with my Google Chrome not playing Youtube videos and all manner of tech difficulties. A computer whiz I ain’t. 😛
Got it. 🙂
I guess you got to be smarter than the computer. 😛
Thanks for your help!
Glad I could help, although admittedly, my computer expertise pretty much goes to clear cache, clear cookies and turn the machine on and off. Fortunately, that works most of the time.
I trust the writers 100%. I may not like a particular direction, but I know they’ll make up for it with something newly compelling. I’d like to think that I am aware enough of my own biases to remember that what I wish for isn’t always the same as everyone else (or even realistic – Jensen can’t be in every scene or he’d be too exhausted to do another season). I send the writers *positive* feedback only, via twitter and occasional postcards. I think that they want to know which elements really stand out as being awesome and worth milking further. An absence of comments just as telling as complaints and always more appreciatively received. No one was begging for more Sam/Amelia stuff, so it got wrapped up relatively quickly. There was no need to whine about it. I don’t like Benny, but I’m never going to think that arguing with the writers about it would result in them capitulating to me. I do love Cas, and have told them that repeatedly, but I don’t expect them to use him more just to make me happy. I trust them to create the Winchester’s world with long-term vision, artistic integrity, and a more neutral perspective than me, which is what keeps the show appealing to enough other people that I get to keep watching it next season. 🙂
Alice-Sometimes it is nice to have a voice of reason weigh in. I know how easy it is to get caught up in the emotions that we as a fandom can generate. It is very easy to take it all a little too seriously sometimes. One thing I have resolved is to try and keep some perspective and my sense of humor. I am not always successful but I find I enjoy the show and visiting here a much more pleasant experience when I do.
I do not think shows should decide things based on fans reactions. But I think they should keep their fingers on the pulse of what is happening out there in the fandom. It couldn’t hurt. To try and carve out a show that pleases all fans (not that that is even remotely possible) would result in madness :sigh:
Good article Alice!
I’m with you about Bobby. I consider that decision a huge huge mistake and wish it had never happened.
But I really wouldn’t want the fans to be running the plot of the show. It would be seesawing back and forth every week at a dizzying speed and the result would be completely unwatchable. There are just too many fan factions to ever all be pleased. 😮
I’m loving this show in spite of everything I wish hadn’t happened. Bobby, Ash, Jo, Ellen, Andy, Rufus , Frank etc. would all still be there if I was running it. But no way will I be leaving it as the brothers are beloved to me like my own family and they fill something in me that I lost long ago. It’s hard to explain why I love it so much!
What would really make me stop watching? Maybe if Dean kills Sam, or Sam kills Dean! 😮
As long as Dean and Sam are the heart of the show, I am there with them all the way, the plot be damned! 😛
I think it is a tough road to find the balance between the creative vision as it plays out in a writer’s/showrunner’s head and the actual product that plays out on TV–but every showrunner has to find it. Fan response has its place–but it shouldn’t be running the show.
I think Kripke found that balance extremely well. He paid attention to fan feedback, so he had an idea how things were actually hitting, like Bela and Jo. But if the response had a lot of negativity (nothing is ever all one way or another), he didn’t try to correct anything by writing fanservice.
Instead he took a critical view himself at the story line and evaluated why it wasn’t playing out as he had expected–as a writer. And then he took the results of his own analysis and made his own course corrections to his vision.
He is on record as saying Bela didn’t play out as he thought and it was the writers’ fault, not Lauren Cohen’s. But then he took that lemon and made lemonade by giving Bela the backstory to explain why she didn’t believe in family or loyalty–the reasons fans thought she was a terrible choice as love interest for Dean. Kripke validated the issues the character brought with her and gave them a place in the story, rather than pretending they didn’t exist.
He did the same with Jo. When first introduced, many fans found her much too young as a love interest for Dean. It didn’t play well when Dean spent as much time with her mother on the phone as with her. Fans complained. Kripke noted and then did his own evaluation again. It is again on record that the writers acknowledged she came across too young and had more of a little sister vibe than romantic.
Kripke’s response was not to put his head in the sand, but to acknowledge that vibe in the story and then take Jo off the playing board for a while, so when he brought her back, she appeared older and more comfortable in her own skin. It worked beautifully–I find Jo’s death heartbreaking every damn time, as I finally could believe her as a serious love interest.
So my belief is the writers do not know until the show actually airs how their creative vision will translate and they do need to have a way to gauge that. Showrunners need to know when they need to course correct and do so, rather than pretending something is working and continuing to build on it.
I would put Sam’s first 10 episodes in that category. When the main critics writing about the show put that story line in the weak category, when almost every blog site has threads discussing why Sam would make that decision and wondering why Dean suddenly resents Sam for being Soulless Sam when if Dean is still resenting anyone about that, it would be Castiel, when even people saying they like the story line are inventing coma theories to make it work–there’s reason for the showrunner to take another look at the creative vision.
BUT they do need to realize social media can distort the level of noise about something. Tweets can be very misleading for all the reasons given by the VD showrunner. A small number of people can sound like a lot of people, but do not actually add up to big numbers. The producers of Lindsay Lohan’s Liz Taylor biopic found that out.
I am no doubt in the minority but I really wish the SPN writers were not on twitter. They can’t help but be influenced by being inundated with passionate tweets, and it becomes significant which shipper group gets organized quickest to blanket the writers with feedback. Shippers are by nature very passionate with a narrow lens and while there is no problem with viewing the show that way, the writers need to keep in mind it’s not necessarily representative of the larger audience.
So my thought is pay attention to how stories are landing using a number of platforms, but do not write fanservice as a corrective. No writers or showrunners are perfect and being able to adjust course is part of the job.
Nice post Gerry. I never thought I’d see Lindsay Lohan’s name here though. Eeeek. 😮
Hi Gerry
[quote]So my belief is the writers do not know until the show actually airs how their creative vision will translate and they do need to have a way to gauge that. Showrunners need to know when they need to course correct and do so, rather than pretending something is working and continuing to build on it. I would put Sam’s first 10 episodes in that category. When the main critics writing about the show put that story line in the weak category, when almost every blog site has threads discussing why Sam would make that decision and wondering why Dean suddenly resents Sam for being Soulless Sam when if Dean is still resenting anyone about that, it would be Castiel,[/quote]
Funny you mention this as I have just posted on another thread whether apart from ‘OOC Sam not looking for Dean’, there has been so much vocal passion against the direction of the show in the past. One poster recalled fan’s dissatisfaction with just 1 other instance, Bella, which was [i]way[/i] back when. If this is right then, as a showrunner, I would note 2 things; in all 8 seasons if Bella and ‘OOC Sam not looking for Dean’ have been the worst cases of fan dissatisfaction, then 1) it seems the SPN fan’s, although passionate, actually [i]are[/i] on board with most of TPTB decisions; and 2) if this is so, then perhaps, like Kripke, they [i]should[/i] sit up and take notice.
SPN has been around far longer than twitter, so social media really wasn’t as big an issue with SPN right at the beginning. According to the ratings, viewership has remained fairly constant with SPN over the years. So statistically speaking, if social media had so much influential spin viz. SPN, then surely the viewership should have increased? I may be new to this or naive, but I strongly suspect the majority of the SPN audience demographic is very different from other shows in that the show attracts an atypical audience. I suspect they know this, so why then lose touch with that core audience by not correcting highly contested issues. Like Alice says, this site alone has demonstrated a constant level of dissatisfaction (even though we may be in the minority :sigh: mmmm not sure about that Alice). Although it is a small audience, odds are that these complaints are coming from a very loyal fanbase. I doesn’t make sense then that they would ignore it.
Alice perhaps you are right in that they will address this contentious issue far later into the series, especially as Carver knows he has season 9 to realise his vision. I hope you are right I really do.
My main point here is even though OOC Sam not looking for Dean is a problem for the minority, it is an ongoing issue which is not going away. They would be wise to take heed!
kaz1-I am not sure where you are getting the ratings numbers but supernatural viewership has been steadly going down since castiel was introduced. True this years ratings have gone up now that SPN has a fantastic lead in with Arrow. But it still is not anywhere near what it had been in the early seasons -Main reason is because it has failed keep the male viewership that it so desprately wants to attract. Why???-because the two leads aren’t hero material anylonger. and the Angel / Demon story is well played out to the extent that we are now repeating storylines. case and point is the Benny episodes. If the writers want more viewers I would suggest they write the 2 leads as heros. Not whiners.
case and point Benny-story line attracted more male viewers. is what I meant to say.
Oh, and I like Benny just fine, but the numbers don’t back you up on this at all. In terms of viewership, “Blood Brother” was the weakest episode this season so far, and “Citizen Fang” was average compared to other episodes.
Aldora-I was talking about viewership makeup NOT ratings for Benny’s episodes. The makeup of the viewership was more male during his episodes. – he only reason Blood Brothers ratings were down was because it aired on Halloween. Nobody was home to watch.We were all halloweening.
Oh right, I forgot about Halloween! Anyway, I still don’t see the point of having a “more male” viewership during those episodes if the numbers were similar to the rest of the season.
I hate how people use ratings for an individual episode to try and back up their argument about what is/isn’t popular. No one knows if they’re going to like an episode before actually watching it.
Usually the trend is that episodes that follow on from a poorly received episode drop. Blood Brothers aired after ‘Bitten’ which was widely slated. The next episode after Blood brothers was Southern Comfort which had great ratings.
I admit, I probably shouldn’t have made that argument (and I didn’t mean to imply Benny wasn’t popular, just that his episodes weren’t much different from the rest of the season). I’m sure “Bitten” had an impact, and tia pointed out Halloween too, which I had forgotten about. But tia appeared to be making an argument about viewership composition – that the show needs more male viewers – and Benny’s episodes somehow helped that. I just don’t see it.
Didn’t the ratings go up the first season where Cas was introduced?
Very few shows match the ratings of their early seasons when they’ve been on for 8 years.
I’d like Dean and Sam to have hero moments but I don’t think that’s down to angels and demons. It’s down to recycling angst just for the sake of it. It was obvious that the main reason they had Sam not look for Dean was because they wanted more angst. It was tedious, depressing, and a drag on the show. So now it apparently never happened.
I like Benny but I’m not sure he’s been any less of a whiner than Sam or Dean. He’s mostly depressed and angsty too. It just seems fresh because we barely know him.
Yes, they did. S4 ratings were the highest since S1, which has the highest ratings for the show with Route 666 being the highest rated episode of the series.
Go Cassie/Dean!! Yes, I loved Cassie/Dean 🙂
Route 666? Really? I would have bet money against that!
ACtually Lala2 and peter-your being funny I know about rte 666-but season 4 started high and gradually went south-like all the rest of the seasons. But go ahead have fun. But truth is spn has been going south since season 4. Because it can’t keep male viewers. There are some-so don’t get literal on me. But spn viewership is mainly female. And those are dropping like flies right now due to Dean not have a story arc and lack of story coherence.
Nope. I’m not being funny in that I loved [i]Route 666[/i] and thought Cassie and Dean had great chemistry. I genuinely and honestly liked that episose and liked them as a couple. I never had a problem w/the “racist truck” idea as I’ve seen it before in horror flicks. I don’t have a problem w/[i]Bug [/i] either.
And it really is the highest rated episode of Supernatural.
Did I get punked?
Oh Leah you make me laugh 😀
Route 666 had the great luck to be on the night of the State of the Union Address. Every broadcast channel, including FOX was showing the SOTU, so anyone who didn’t care had Supernatural as a non-cable choice. One of those cases where being lucky was better than being good.
Ah hah 🙂
stop it 😀 😀 😀
Quoting percysowner:
[quote]Route 666 had the great luck to be on the night of the State of the Union Address.[/quote] 😆 That is too funny! I guess I would have been one of those people. I’m Canadian, so, I don’t really watch SOTUA. 😉
Season 4 was also the season which had the best arc (or potential for best arc).
I never knew that was the highest rated episode. Crazy. The sex scene and the car chase weren’t bad. Maybe Kathleen Noone brought in the Knots Landing fans…
I always contributed it to the promo of Dean having sex that raised the ratings. I thought the scene w/Dean and Cassie was extremely HOT!
I don’t know why there is so much hate for that episode. The story was fine. Dean and Cassie were cute. It worked for me. I’m glad I wasn’t online during the first season.
no argument re the Cassie/Dean in bed scenes!! But the truck Lala, the truck! 😮 possessed transport!!! ? huh? that’s right up there with the candlestick and the teapot coming alive in ‘Beauty and the Beast’
Have you not watched the movie “Christine”?? Or there was another one with trucks as well-can’t remember the name of that one though. So haunted vehicles have been done-and “Christine” was a fantastic movie in its time.
Lala2-I loved route 666 as well,. and Bugs. In fact I liked every episode in s1-s4. So you are not alone there.
But no Route 666 ratings were NOT the highest rated that season. They are pulling your leg. funny,.
Tia – I am almost 100% positive that Route 666 is the highest rated episode of Supernatural. Season 1 had the highest ratings of the show – period. No other season matched S1 ratings. S4 came the closest.
Here is a link: http://supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Ratings#2005-2006_.28Season_One.29
Anyway, I am happy to find another Route 666 and Bugs lover. Like you, I can pretty much watch any episode in seasons 1 – 4. Even the Bela ones, and I didn’t even like Bela. Haha!
Ha, you guys must not know that we keep a ratings page here on this site showing ratings from all seasons and all episodes! Yes, Route 666 is the highest rated episode in Supernatural history. That’s because the State of the Union was airing that night and The WB was the only network that was airing original programming.
Me thinks I need to make our ratings page more visible!
https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/18-ratings.html
Kaz, I’m with Tia on this. Possessed or haunted vehicles is not a new concept. I love Christine, which is a Stephen King novel about a possessed car that was made into a movie. And as Tia pointed, that’s not the only possessed car movie out there. I remember watching a movie where this poor guy was being chased down in the desert by a massive black truck, and I’m pretty sure the truck had no driver. That was a really intense flick. There’s another movie where these people are stuck in a diner because their vehicles have become possessed for some reason.
So, the idea of a possessed truck never bothered me the way it seems to have bothered others. I really enjoyed Route 666. Honestly, I enjoyed most episodes in the first 4 seasons. In S4, the only two episodes I didn’t like were IKWYDLS and H&H though I did like certain parts of H&H.
Actually I think I also saw the truck with no driver chasing poor guy in the desert movie, that was loooong ago. Ok so I concede, there have been possessed transport movies out there. But no cigar Lala, not buying this one for anything
Well ratings are on your side, so I guess many ppl liked. 😀
possessed transport indeed! Dean was good though, very very good. I liked the chemistry between the two, ok so I think I’ll watch it again and try to find redeeming scenes 😉
Definitely give it a re-watch! It’s a good episode, IMO.
I think you might be referring to “The Duel”. It was a Steven Spielberg movie. But that truck was not possessed, we just never see the driver, he just decides to start chasing this poor guy on deserted roads for the fun of it! It stars Dennis Weaver from one of my all-time favourite tv shows, “McCloud”. It seems I have a whole bunch of all-time favs! 🙂
You see, Lala Sylvie says the truck wasn’t possessed. So that leaves you with even fewer examples in movies ha HA! as Leah would say 😛
I believe that movie you saw was the made for TV movie “Duel” starring Dennis Weaver and directed by Stephen Spielberg before he got famous for directing “Jaws”.
That is an exciting and tense film and well worth trying to find it. That truck was truly creepy and scared the bejesus out of me at the time.
Actually, if you want to talk numbers, the ratings dropped from S1 to S3 and then picked up during S4 (Castiel’s introduction). S4 was very comparable to S2 levels.
Also, if you’re going to claim a drop in male viewership specifically is to blame for the overall decline, please back that up with a source. Most of what I see is explained by attrition – the natural shedding of viewers every show goes through the longer it lasts. Look at any other CW show – Smallville, for instance. There’s a drop of millions of viewers from the first to last seasons, and I doubt anything in the world could have prevented that.
Did the show suffer from poor choices over the years? During S6 and S7 (in which Cas appears the least, by the way?) Absolutely! Are the leads still “hero material?” Who’s to say? The ratings for S8 are better than S7, and that’s what the network cares about. [i]I [/i]think they’re slowly being built back up to heroic status – they’re back to being proactive instead of reactive. Which is a nice step forward.
[quote]Absolutely! Are the leads still “hero material?” Who’s to say? The ratings for S8 are better than S7, and that’s what the network cares about. I think they’re slowly being built back up to heroic status – they’re back to being proactive instead of reactive. Which is a nice step forward.[/quote]
Nicely put. Very much agree.
The reason the ratings dropped (biggest between s2 and s3) is because the wb “changed” to cw and viewers lost track of where spn was being show. With alot of markets not picking up the new network for a year.
Smallville lost the male viewership as well because viewers were tired of waiting for the Superman we all know and love to show his head. In other words the writers took too long for Clark to grow up to be the hero.
S6 and S7 were because of writing not because Cas was not there. And the episodes he did show up in ratings went down. Not by much-but went down.
Sorry, but when someone talks ratings I love to jump in! It’s kind of my area of expertise. 🙂
Ratings crashed yes because The CW crashed. It was a poorly conceived network from the word go. Combining WB and UPN programming was a crappy idea. It’s taken years for new series to evolve and give the network an identity. Now with The Vampire Diaries and Arrow, it’s happening.
Season 6 and 7 ratings were down because the show was moved to Fridays. That is a traditionally low rated viewing night. Also, Nikita was the lead in. It’s a good show, but it’s low rated (in the US) and not compatible. However, DVR and online ratings are way up this year as well as live ratings, so I do wonder why that is. Could be the more high profile pairing with Arrow, or it could be people are loving the new season. Probably both!
I’m confused, The CW crashed? What is it called now?
Crashed doesn’t mean ended. It means just that, it crashed. It’s still The CW, but the network got off to a very rough start. TPTB assumed that by merging the two networks, ratings would double. When they didn’t, and went down overall, things looked very bad.
It almost didn’t make it’s 3rd year, but then the Vampire Diaries saved the network. Season 4 of Supernatural came out like gang busters because they honestly thought the network wasn’t going to survive and that was their last season. Luckily, things picked up in the nick of time.
Ok thanks for the info Alice. I hope things have improved since; am going to do a little research now. It just demonstrates how complicated the politics and goings on behind the scenes really is. Dodgy management decisions can make or break; no matter how good the shows/actors are. Must have been hair raising for Jensen and Jared at the time, not to mention fans.
Just as an aside, is this site dedicated exclusively to SPN? I haven’t dabbled further than the chat rooms.
The UPN/WB pretty muched sucked! They thought all those teen-agy/ soap-operay shows were what people wanted; but nobody watched them. Smallville was the only thing I ever watched (on them) before Supernatural. I missed the 1st years of Supernatural for that reason. They never advertised on other channels; & I wasn’t on theirs enough to see any ads for it. After Dark Angel, and Smallville, I would have followed Jensen ANYWHERE!! So glad I finally found him (and Jared).
Buffy and Angel were on the WB. Though I do think that was the only ones I watched on that network.
I’ve always felt that creating a new network was a big mistake. I’ve heard that the WB really wasn’t making money and was about to go out of business and UPN was in even worse shape when the merger happened. I always thought, however, that creating a new network, that had to sign new affiliates and needed to create new recognition was a big hurdle that causes some real problems. When I look at the shows that have lasted and have the higher ratings, most of them seem to come from Warner Brothers, not CBS. I know that we can’t see what would have happened if things were different, but I always had the feeling that the network would have been stronger if the WB had held on and simply bought 1-2 of the shows off a folding UPN (Veronica Mars would have fit on the WB at the very least). That way the network left standing would have established name recognition, would have affiliates in place and so would have had less to do to build an audience. I admit, I would have had the WB continue, but that is my bias because I didn’t watch UPN shows.
What is your opinion. You state that the CW was a poorly conceived network, and I agree. From what you know, what do you think would have worked instead of the merger? Am I wrong to think the WB was the stronger network at the time of the merger? Was the WB about to close its doors without the merger (I have heard that stated somewhere)? I’m really curious if you think that there was a better way to keep at least one of the networks going.
Final question. If the rumors that the WB was about to throw in the towel were true, do you think that if they had held on for a few more years, it would have been able to turn a profit via DVD sales, international sales and syndication. Again, it seems like the WB produced shows are the ones that sell well in other formats and do well in distribution, although, again that may be my personal bias since I happen to watch and prefer the shows produced by the WB part of the CW.
Okay, just remember, you’re the one that asked! I’m a walking encyclopedia of network history!
The WB was losing money, but at one point it was making money. UPN was a very bad loser from the word go. No one saw the merger coming. It shocked a lot of people. Historically though, it makes sense why they did it.
A lot of people at Time Warner wanted to own a network. They wanted a place to exclusively distribute their content, especially after Fin-syn rules that disallowed that sort of thing disappeared in the mid 90’s. The WB was born on the idea of demo driven viewing. Make cheap, cult shows that capitalized on the lucrative youth markets that other networks weren’t tapping. In the meantime, they were growing their cable empire with Turner Broadcasting, so all that was missing was a major network, which was next on the plan list.
Then Jeff Bewkes took over Time Warner. He learned that trying to do everything was burning this company bad. Case in point, the AOL merger. That was tanking their stock and eating up resources. He decided a leaner, more focused company was better. He didn’t want to be the broadcaster, he wanted to be the distributor. So, when this merger idea came up from UPN (owned by CBS) and The WB (owned by Time Warner subsidiary Warner Brothers), even though The WB was the more buzzworthy and better brand, he let UPN owners CBS take operational control of the new network while they maintained a 50% equity stake.
Les Moonves of CBS is a brilliant network president, but he never cared for the hip youth station trumping his flagship CBS. He basically ran this youth network, named an very unimaginative The CW (CBS Warner) only because The WC would have been very odd, with old school values of CBS, and put his pet, I mean confidant, Dawn Ostroff in charge, even though she had just tanked UPN. Both companies seriously thought that since each net had 3 million viewers average, they would get 6 million with the combined network, even though they kept shows from both networks didn’t blend together at all. They launched with a piss poor marketing campaign (didn’t want to blow the dollars since they both took big charges dissolving their other networks), no brand identity, and a chick with no business sense in charge.
With the exception of America’s Next Top Model and WWE wrestling, the highest rated shows were all The WB carryovers. Dawn’s goal was to introduce her pet shows one by one and phase out all those WB shows. Except Smallville, the network’s number one show, wouldn’t go away quietly. Neither did One Tree Hill or Supernatural, the latter being the youngest show the net had when it started. Her idea, build a whole network on 18-34 females, even though her programming was a mix of shows catering to the entire 18-34 demo and a good amount of 18-49. Heck, she even dumped her by far highest rated show, wrestling, because all the men that watched that wouldn’t come back and watch her girly shows on other nights so she couldn’t sell advertising.
When Dawn’s shows started tanking, her sole success being the Warner Brothers joint produced Vampire Diaries, and she sent two of her highest rated and buzzworthy shows to low rated Friday night, Warner Brothers started taking back control. Dawn was out as soon as her contract was done. Mark Pedowitz may have come from ABC, but he’s a close friend of Bruce Rosenblum of Warner Brothers.
Now, the influence is far more even and they’re going for WB type shows again. Bewkes is happy because his company is distributing shows that make money while he’s not being saddled with the sole costs of operating an expense network. CBS is happy because their money losing network isn’t losing as much money as it did and they’re making money on their shows while CBS remains a juggernaut. So everybody wins. Except Gossip Girl and 90210, which never ran as long as the old time WB shows.
Any questions? 🙂
[quote]What is your opinion. You state that the CW was a poorly conceived network, and I agree. From what you know, what do you think would have worked instead of the merger? Am I wrong to think the WB was the stronger network at the time of the merger? Was the WB about to close its doors without the merger (I have heard that stated somewhere)? I’m really curious if you think that there was a better way to keep at least one of the networks going. [/quote]
Sorry, I’ve got to continue this in a separate post. The partnership was rushed. Both networks were bleeding money and they both jumped into this with little planning and thought. Another thing that happened that I didn’t mention above is that the merger totally screwed their affiliates. In many markets they had two affiliates and figured they would automatically get the best one. What they didn’t count on was that FOX owned a bunch of those affiliates and in protest for being dumped hastily and leaving their stations in several markets to hold the bag, they started MyNetworkTV. The CW ended up losing coverage in many markets and a crap load of strong affiliates.
In adding insult to injury, their buffoonery in the first few years ended up driving many already weak affiliates to bankruptcy or near bankruptcy because of free falling ratings. Their largest affiliate, Tribune, went bankrupt and emerged without their CW logo on their flagship, WGN.
Really, the merger wasn’t a bad idea. I personally think they should have dumped UPN all together and let CBS come in as a partner of The WB to develop new shows. They had the stronger network, especially with affiliate coverage. The could have also tried to conceive a far better brand and planned a smoother launch.
Then again, look at corporate history. When have mergers ever been done right? The CW is extremely lucky it came back after the writer’s strike. It was almost done at that point.
Goodness!! This was season 3 right? Just how close did it get? Would this have meant Supernatural being axed. Sorry for the ignorance, but I am mightily intrigued
Hey, I love this stuff. I really like knowing the facts behind what happened. I always knew that DO was a horrible choice to run the network and that her strategy was a total fail. I didn’t consider that CBS wasn’t all that unhappy that it was a fail. I was fully aware that DO HATED Supernatural and Smallville and couldn’t get rid of them because they were doing so well in the ratings. And I do remember the hoopla about letting wrestling go, which seemed foolish to me, although I didn’t watch it. I did hear that the licensing for wrestling was going to cost more than the CW could make in revenue, but I don’t know if that was true or a cover story.
I always thought that the 2 networks would have done better if it had stayed the WB and CBS had provided programing. On an intellectual level I feel bad about the failure of UPN because it did have more diversity in its shows. The WB was and remains an incredibly white network and I do regret that some of the UPN comedies didn’t make it ratings wise. I did not watch Veronica Mars, but I do wonder if it had been transplanted to the WB and had been surrounded by WB shows, would it have had aa better chance than on the kludge that the CW was. Also, I will never really get over my beloved (and really well written) Everwood being dumped at the last minute so that we could get one more year of 7th Heaven.
Thanks for the behind the scenes look. Just looking at the DVR, Itunes, Netflix and syndication success of the WB shows my gut tells me that if the WB had absorbed UPN, they would be making a good amount of money from sources other than the network and the network would have been in better shape. It sounds as if my gut feeling may be supported by some of the facts.
Oh well, at least Dawn Ostroff was unable to kill Supernatural, no matter how much she wanted to.
I remember when WGN carried the WB and I do know that the network was really weakened by the switch. Does the CW have as much coverage as the WB did? I know for a while, it was under, but they have picked up affiliates along the way.
Wow, that’s really interesting. Thanks for the info Alice. I had never even really thought about it before. All I remember is that I had to pay extra to my cable provider in order to get The CW so I could continue watching my shows. I was not going to be a happy camper without Supernatural and Smallville. :sigh:
Hi Kaz, I wouldn’t say Bela and Sam’s initial season 8 arc are the only cases of viewer dissatisfaction–there have been more over the seasons. There was a lot of dissatisfaction last season over both Sam’s and Castiel’s arcs–and they were deserved, in my opinion. I think JC is trying a corrective to some of those dissatisfactions this year and in some measure, he has succeeded.
Cas does have a better story line this year and I love the MOL arc, which gives the kind of reboot this show has needed since season five ended. And I say that having enjoyed most of season six and some of season seven. At the end of the day, the show needed a new reason to draw Sam and Dean personally into their quests.
But I don’t think all criticisms and negative fan reactions have the same weight and showrunners need to evaluate what really matters and what is a passing concern.
For example, several people were upset when the MOL plot played fast and loose with John canon. And that was unnecessary–but in the end, the MOL story was really interesting, John is no longer on the show, so viewers are going to move past that and the show as a whole does not suffer. That’s a passing concern.
Damage to Sam and Dean’s relationship is not a passing concern. That is the engine that drives the show, the hook that hooks people in and makes them care so much. Some people lean more Sam’s way, some more Dean’s and some right in the middle, but almost always still in the context of the relationship between the boys.
Right from the beginning, Jared and Jensen made Sam and Dean really feel like brothers, with real issues that resonate with many many people. So to me, it does matter HOW issues concerning their relationship get raised. It’s not enough for the writers to move the boys past–I have to believe how they move past. The story has to make sense, plotwise and emotionally.
To me, that’s why I have issues with Sam’s story this year. I don’t understand why his emotional state wasn’t important enough to show after Dean disappeared. I don’t know why he assumed Dean was dead when Dean’s disappeared before and this time he had Castiel with him for support.
I don’t know why all the hints of illusion and Sam using Amelia’s relationship to escape from his real life, including his grief about Dean, went nowhere and instead rolled into a lovers triangle that Sam still feels was the real life he craves.
I don’t know why Sam did a 180 degree turnaround on monsters between Kate and Benny. I don’t know why he didn’t care at all that Benny helped Dean escape Purgatory.
I don’t know why the writers dredged up unconvincing grudges for Dean to carry in Southern Comfort and then just let them lie without ever being discussed further.
All this to me is the kind of stuff that hurts the relationship and if viewers in any kind of numbers begin not to find that relationship emotionally truthful any more, the show will be damaged.
Maybe only a very few viewers feel like I do and if so, everything is on the right track and I can either watch or not watch. But to me, anything the involves that brother relationship should be very very carefully crafted and then monitored by JC. It’s the backbone of the series.
The first half of the season did a hatchet job on Sam, and I don’t even think it was intentional, but it did. They seem to have decided to pretend it never happened, and hope fans will move on. I’m willing to do that, but I wish it hadn’t happened.
I agree, and it drives me [i]nuts [/i]because so much of that clumsiness strikes me as fixable! Give Sam a little monologue where he talks about running himself ragged looking for Dean not once, but twice in the past (confessing the full extent of Gabriel’s meddling during “Mystery Spot”). Where he talks about feeling so beat down, and having no clue where to look anyway. As for Amelia… I thought she had potential to be a good “support staff” character for hunting (military family, kind of prickly/stubborn, vet skills), and then they wrote her like a teenager and dropped her like a hot potato. So much for that.
[quote]Hi Kaz, I wouldn’t say Bela and Sam’s initial season 8 arc are the only cases of viewer dissatisfaction–there have been more over the seasons. There was a lot of dissatisfaction last season over both Sam’s and Castiel’s arcs–and they were deserved, in my opinion. I think JC is trying a corrective to some of those dissatisfactions this year and in some measure, he has succeeded.
Cas does have a better story line this year and I love the MOL arc, which gives the kind of reboot this show has needed since season five ended. And I say that having enjoyed most of season six and some of season seven. At the end of the day, the show needed a new reason to draw Sam and Dean personally into their quests.
But I don’t think all criticisms and negative fan reactions have the same weight and showrunners need to evaluate what really matters and what is a passing concern.
For example, several people were upset when the MOL plot played fast and loose with John canon. And that was unnecessary–but in the end, the MOL story was really interesting, John is no longer on the show, so viewers are going to move past that and the show as a whole does not suffer. That’s a passing concern.
Damage to Sam and Dean’s relationship is not a passing concern. That is the engine that drives the show, the hook that hooks people in and makes them care so much. Some people lean more Sam’s way, some more Dean’s and some right in the middle, but almost always still in the context of the relationship between the boys.
Right from the beginning, Jared and Jensen made Sam and Dean really feel like brothers, with real issues that resonate with many many people. So to me, it does matter HOW issues concerning their relationship get raised. It’s not enough for the writers to move the boys past–I have to believe how they move past. The story has to make sense, plotwise and emotionally.
To me, that’s why I have issues with Sam’s story this year. I don’t understand why his emotional state wasn’t important enough to show after Dean disappeared. I don’t know why he assumed Dean was dead when Dean’s disappeared before and this time he had Castiel with him for support.
I don’t know why all the hints of illusion and Sam using Amelia’s relationship to escape from his real life, including his grief about Dean, went nowhere and instead rolled into a lovers triangle that Sam still feels was the real life he craves.
I don’t know why Sam did a 180 degree turnaround on monsters between Kate and Benny. I don’t know why he didn’t care at all that Benny helped Dean escape Purgatory.
I don’t know why the writers dredged up unconvincing grudges for Dean to carry in Southern Comfort and then just let them lie without ever being discussed further.
All this to me is the kind of stuff that hurts the relationship and if viewers in any kind of numbers begin not to find that relationship emotionally truthful any more, the show will be damaged.
Maybe only a very few viewers feel like I do and if so, everything is on the right track and I can either watch or not watch. But to me, anything the involves that brother relationship should be very very carefully crafted and then monitored by JC. It’s the backbone of the series.[/quote]
amen
Gerry
Very well put, tks for a great response
Another Excellent post, Gerry. I don’t usually get to fussed about things like them playing a little with canon. If the story is compelling enough to overlook it and they give me a throwaway line to explain it, I’m typically happy.
Exception would be ones like Shutup Dr Phil thing I mentioned in another of your posts. Again a throwaway line about WHY they couldn’t continue to hunt these 2 witches and I would have been good. But mainly it was because it was it the midst of a half season arc THAT WAS MENTIONED IN THAT EPISODE! So that was a total fail for me.
But even then it effects an episode and a short arc. It doesn’t contradict 8 years of episodes. Like you said damage to their relationship is not a passing concern. And most especially this
[b]”Maybe only a very few viewers feel like I do and if so, everything is on the right track and I can either watch or not watch. But to me, anything the involves that brother relationship should be very very carefully crafted and then monitored by JC. It’s the backbone of the series.”[/b]
From the pilot, the brothers relationship has been the heart and soul of the show. Even when it breaks our hearts, it powers everything about Supernatural. So if they did cavalierly decided implement this storyline and then just close the book on this without really explaining it would be really destructive to the show. Not just in the short term but it the long term as well.
We fans have long memories. Hell, Bella is still mentioned and she was in 6 episodes , five season ago. And was never a pivotal part of the show. So I don’t see people who have a problem with this moving past it any time soon.
Excellent post, Gerry. For the most part, I don’t think fans should have a lot of say in story lines. But there are times with things don’t work. So I’m torn (as usual).
The Sam storyline this year, for instance. If they are leading up to some great plot twist(despite Alice’s thoughts I’m trying to stay hopeful), then I don’t think they should sacrifice their vision just because I’m impatient. BUT if JC stupidly thought this would just be “something different” from the other times in the show where one of them died (once again struck by the odd sentences this show forces you to write), then I believe he should completely buckle to the fans’ wishes-minority or not.
For one thing, in this case, there isn’t exactly a pro not-looking-for-Dean group. Everyone whose reviews and posts I’ve read would at least like more info about what happened, even if they are OK with the story now. This isn’t one of those situations where to please one fan group they have to piss off the other.
Now HOW they might do it could be a bone of contention but simply adding a scene that shows time period shouldn’t do it. And while it wouldn’t be whole satisfactory for me, at this point, since they waited to long(if there is not a big reveal). It would at least reduce the frustration level to much more manageable levels.
I agree about the writers being on Twitter. I imagine it would be easy to be influenced by the most vocal groups and confuse their passion with them being a majority of fans. Supernatural does itself a disservice when it caters to fan groups instead of creating an overall vision and sticking to it.
I don’t want the fans to influence the show. Let it go where Jeremy Carver and the writers and show runners take it, and as long as I’m entertained and invested in what happens next I’ll keep watching. It’s the mystery of what could possibly happen next that I love so much, because I’m usually surprised by Supernatural, for better or worse.
Hi Alice, thanks for opening up a discussion on this. I haven’t read other posts, but I will tomorrow with my coffee. 😆
I’ll admit this is the only site that I post on, and I’m usually not too grumpy about any episodes, I’d say for 8 seasons, that’s pretty good. But, then again, I do tend to see the world from behind rose coloured glasses. 8) The ONLY thing I’m peeved about is killing Bobby off. 😥 That I will never forgive. Every episode since, I always think how he’s missing on the show, and what invaluable information he always had for the Winchesters, not to mention he was more blood to them than their real blood relations. The few episodes I do loathe, I will just not watch at all, and leave it at that. Out of 23 or 24 episodes in a season, they can’t all be winners. So I’m willing to forgive these missteps and move on. This is and will always be my favourite television show. 🙂
This is a great discussion topic. Close to my heart and the ache in my stomach.
Alice you wrote, [quote]Sometimes it takes seasons to get things addressed. Remember Mary Winchester’s “I’m sorry†in “Home†in season one? That wasn’t addressed until season four. Dean didn’t find out about Sam being infected with demon blood for more than a season after Sam found out. Brotherly issues are constantly surfacing all the time, most recently with Dean’s rant in “Southern Comfort,†which dug back to Sam’s actions in season four and season six as well as recently. That’s the fabric of the show. Two brothers pushed into a life of hunting the supernatural and the often tense relationship between the two. Anything in the past is fair game. [/quote]
So, I’m interpreting this to mean that 1) we are to assume the show/brothers have moved on/resolved Sam’s not looking for Dean. 2) But other issues from the past that the fans thought were not resolved come back up and are clearly not resolved in the show – such as in SC. 3) So it is clearly possible as one part of the fandom thinks
the Sam not looking for Dean issue is NOT resolved. You are effectively saying it is resolved but may come up again because it is not resolved.??? Please, I am not smart enough to be mean here, I am asking this with honest confusion and total respect. I hope I was clear and got my words in the right order!
love2boys, I can’t speak for Alice, but what I understood from her text is that, so far in the season, this issue seems to be resolved between S&D and that they moved on. But she cannot say what the writers will do in the future. They might decide to revisit the subject anytime or have a plot twist in their sleeve. We cannot predict what will happen.
Oh. Now I get it. 😕 Thank you.
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Wonderful and beautifully said St50. This is why ppl watch, read, listen to and tell stories. They want to overcome in the imagination what they can’t in reality.
“It is a show about two people whose devotion conquers all evil – and even death. Because I can’t” Beautiful
I salute you! I watch for the same reason
st50, I didn’t get a chance to read your post, but if kaz1’s quote is from it, I have to tell you that line brought tears to my eyes. It’s so beautiful.
st 50, why did you delete your post? I have a feeling I would have loved it! Anything that is “wonderful and beautifully said”(kaz1) must have been worth reading and if personal, even more so!
st50,
Even though you’ve now deleted it, I read your post. I can understand not wanting to get personal online, though sometimes I find it to be cathartic. What you wrote was beautiful and heartrending. There’s nothing I can say in response that would be adequate, but I wish I knew you so I could give you a hug, make you some tea, and lend a shoulder. I can’t say I understand where you’re coming from, because that would be a lie, but I have major respect from afar.
I want to let you know how much I appreciate the support of those who read that deleted post.
And apologize for my “eek, what have I done” moment.
Hi st50, I want to let you know that I am thinking of you. I didn’t read your post but I can read between the lines of the other posts. I would also give you a hug and some Dr. Pepper, my highest honor!! Hope to catch you in the C/B soon. I am still a little shy about it.
Count me as one of those who is no longer watching other than when / if Benny comes back. I won’t be watching s9 at all with Misha/Cas back as a regular because we have been there done that too many times. Same with the “Dean takes care of Sam” thing. Its old-Its boring now-first time around I liked it-this is what 3rd time -4th maybe?? and once again-Dean has no story of his own. He is the reactor to what is going on around him, not the action or the story mover. I am done with it.
Those two very beautiful speeches done by Sam and Dean in Trial and Error-meant absolutely nothing. A total waste. Sam instead of bringing Dean into the light-is now worried about himself – Dean has been relagated to praying to an angel again-who Dean should have killed back in s6 when cas broke Sam’s wall. The Dean I fell in love with would have. The Dean in season 1-3 would have. Not this one- This Dean is happy to be boo hooing constantly instead of being a hero and getting the job done-whatever it takes. Thats what real heros do.
I started watching spn back in s1 because Sam and Dean Winchester were hero’s -they were written as such. Dean is not even close to a hero anymore- boo hooing about everything – And Sam-well -he does what he does and then runs away from hunting. Yea!! I am done with the show- sadly.
Tia, you seem to be suggesting that someone is only a hero if you can keep score of what they have done. That seems sad to me, there are many ways of being a hero without actually having ‘saving the world’ on the list.
If I were the writers I would have given Dean the trials and given Sam some of the character attention (which to me is not necessarily the same thing as a storyline) he has sorely lacked from the beginning of the season.
However then it would be Dean who gets sicker and sicker and withdrawn and uncommunicative. He would also be in need of rescuing every week, as well as needing help actually carrying out the trials. Sam would come out of doing that, backing Dean up, looking like a hero. As he will in the scenario we actually have if he succeeds with the trials (however I don’t for a minute believe the trials are going to work out as a win for the guys, or at least not straight away).And there is so much else going on that it isn’t the whole story anyway.
For me, no matter which of them does the trials, if they try and fail they are still heroes – because they tried.
Ah eilf, so true!! 😥
Eilf-No I am suggesting that hero’s do not -at least not in shows, novels ect…. that I like to read and watch- boo hoo about things. Yea they might not succeed everytime. Yea they will have worries about things. In this case the brothers worry about each other. Worry is one thing, Whining and boo hooing is totally another. And can you tell me _i ask this politely -when was the last time Sam and Dean actually won a fight ON THIER OWN???? It wasn’t the Titans- the female titan won- -it wasn’t Trial and Error-Sam “maybe” saved Dean but he really didn’t win anything at this point and all we got out that episode was more lying and angst. It wasn’t the MOL episode-Grandpa did the killing, It wasn’t the witch episode- the dog won that battle for the most part. You can say they had Help but they didn’t win that on thier own. We could keep going. The )ONLY time either brother won-was Dean in purgatory. On his OWN. Yea heros have help at times-but the brothers demeanor is just so blah to me. Anyway I am done watching it just for this reason-I am sooooooooo tired of me and others constantly b*tching and complaining about a show. When it becomes such a pain in the arse to watch-its time to go. So I go!!!
You nailed it on the head, Alice. This should be required reading for EVERY Supernatural fan. Period.
I don’t know if it’s the maturity of my age (I’m in my 40’s–wait, did I just write ‘maturity’? LOL) or because I’ve watched so many shows over the years, but as far as story arcs, I frankly couldn’t give a rats ass who has one or not because ya know what? That’s the writers job to worry about, not mine. I watch Supernatural as a WHOLE, not for just one character, nor do I ‘ship’ anything, so as long as the show holds my interest in some way, they’ve got me until the end (Ah, who am I kidding? They’ve got me until the end!)
Oh and just a little FYI:
All the arguing, complaining, etc. about the show –if I may be blunt here–annoys the royal hell out of me. Sam Didn’t Look For Dean!, Dean Has No Story Arc Again!, Bring Back The Amulet, Dammit!, Cas Should Be In More Episodes! — Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s great fans have passion about the show, I do too, but I don’t get involved in these kind of conversations because, well, I choose to reserve that kind of intensity & frustration for yelling at people in traffic. “Hey, Idjit! You’re swerving over the center line, Mr. Accident-Waiting-To-Happen-Because-You’re-On-A-Cell-Phone!”
Okay, sorry about that, I’m back…
Putting impossibly high expectations on this show for me ended around the end of Season 4 –and it was the best thing I ever did. I expect & trust the writers to do their best & IMHO they do, but I don’t expect every episode and/or season to be a winner. I haven’t agreed with everything that’s happened and that’s okay. It’s good, actually–makes the show more interesting.
I’ve been on this crazy ride for 8 1/2 years now. Personally, I think Season 8 is rockin’ & I can’t wait to see the rest of the season and beyond. 😀
Right on Lyra. Couldn’t agree with you more.
In your 40’s?—Ha! If you knew MY maturity I would be suspected of suffering from Alzheimers. Been watching TV series since “Perry Mason’ in the fifties and can say without any doubt in my opinion “Supernatural” is far and away the very best series ever on TV. The ratings be damned! The finest things are not always the most popular. Don’t forget though, this show is popular in countries all over the world. We don’t know their ratings, only the ones in the U.S. Their dvd sales are great also.
I’m so grateful we are still able to enjoy our show and hopefully will continue to as long as the two wonderful J’s are willing to do it.
From the pilot all the way to Lazarus Rising there is not one episode I don’t enjoy, including “Bugs” (great brother moments), “Route 666” (loved Cassie and the sex scene), and even “Magnificent Seven” and “Red Sky at Morning” are 2 that on viewing again and again find more enjoyable each time. In fact, there are only 2 I really dislike and even they have redeemable moments, “Bitten” and “Cris Angel”.
Not a bad record for 8 1/2 years! 8)
I qualify for an AARP card and I have been watching since the pilot! So the demographics from the network focus on younger consumers, but there are many of us more mature viewers who have the money to be consumers- and yest sometimes life experience helps this viewer fill in the missing pieces of the narrative. No Alzheimers here= the plot is basic yet the details are complicated and ever evolving.
You can add me to the AARP qualifying list as well.
Getting close. Will be hitting 50 this year and I love the shows that are “targeted” for younger viewers. 😛 I just bought the DVD’s of Veronica Mars, I loved that show when it was on, and I still love it.
The first two seasons of Veronica Mars were excellent, edgy, unafraid to let the lead be morally ambiguous at times, with hard-hitting tough issues. The writing of Season 3 killed it (although there are still some good moments like in Seasons 6 & 7 of SPN) – that’s why viewers who love a show should point out to the network when writers are screwing up. IMHO
debbab, it is nice to see other fans in the AARP demographics!
I am a FAN of this show and will always been a fan of the show. As I sit with my Dean blanket (birthday present from kids) wrapped around me and was scrolling they Twitter I clicked a link for another WFB article and also read this discussion.
I agree with a lot of the responses written. There are a few episodes I did not like Bitten for one. There are writers I do not enjoy (Adam Glass) . There is the missing Samulet that still bugs me, Roy and Walt still walking the earth after shooting Dean & Sam (DSOTM), Bobby, Bobby, Bobby!
None of theses issues have or ever will make me stop watching the show. I own ever DVD and every episode in Blue Ray and own every episode on Amazon.
I fell in Love with this show because of the relationship between the brothers. I greatly enjoy the episodes when they are at odds with each other. We are watching the Winchester’s not the Brady kids. Brothers argue they fight and they don’t tell each other everything all the time.
Yes it drives me crazy when one episode Dean is called a genius and the next episode he does not know what a familiar is. Yes it made me nuts to find out Sam did not try to find his brother. OMC it drives me friggin nuts when the writers screw up a past story arc or forget how to kill a zombie or a vampire or the episode seems like it was just thrown together to fill the required 42 minutes.
But in NO way would any of these reasons make me stop watching the show. There are 2 reasons for me to stop watching this show. 1 Dean is no longer a charchter on the show. 2 the show is cancelled or is not renewed. 😮
I am amazed at the depth of anger and criticism that goes on Twitter and on occasion on this site. We are talking about a TVShow. We are talking about fictional characters. As the saying goes beauty is in the sight of the beholder.
If I do not like and episode I do not watch it again…simple answer to the problem. In 8 seasons there are probably 10 episodes I can truly say I do not rewatch. Out of 160 plus episodes that is pretty dam good.
Those who say Dean does not have a story arc because Sam is performing the trials. Well Deans story arc has always been looking out for Sammy. It is recited in many episodes, Johns last words to Dean were to take care of Sammy. Those that complain Sam does not have a story arc…Sam is the brother that needs looking after. But the fact the brothers are together and doing the job they were raised to do is just fine by me.
As my user name indicates I am a Dean girl all the way. You can not give me to much Dean. 😛 I am also Sam curious as the saying goes. I enjoy Cas and Benny. Since most of the people Dean and Sam know have been killed off except Roy&Walt know I need to get over it, the new cast members help to move the story forward and gives the writers more twists and plots to explore (except Adam Glass).
My SPN dream, I would love to see an episode where Dean and Sam swap (A Mile In My Shoes) roles. Dean can be younger and Sam gets to be the older brother. Or we can have Jensen play Sam and Jared play Dean. How about a flash back episode like Jensen mentioned at Vegas Con. The brothers sit around talking about past cases with flash backs…would be a good 2 hr episode 😀
As with many fans this show was there to help me get thru some very tough times in my life and I will be there till the end for the show.
I agree with a lot of the responses written. There are a few episodes I did not like Bitten for one. There are writers I do not enjoy (Adam Glass) . There is the missing Samulet that still bugs me, Roy and Walt still walking the earth after shooting Dean & Sam (DSOTM), Bobby, Bobby, Bobby!
None of theses issues have or ever will make me stop watching the show. I own ever DVD and every episode in Blue Ray and own every episode on Amazon.
I fell in Love with this show because of the relationship between the brothers. I greatly enjoy the episodes when they are at odds with each other. We are watching the Winchester’s not the Brady kids. Brothers argue they fight and they don’t tell each other everything all the time.
Yes it drives me crazy when one episode Dean is called a genius and the next episode he does not know what a familiar is. Yes it made me nuts to find out Sam did not try to find his brother. OMC it drives me friggin nuts when the writers screw up a past story arc or forget how to kill a zombie or a vampire or the episode seems like it was just thrown together to fill the required 42 minutes.
But in NO way would any of these reasons make me stop watching the show. There are 2 reasons for me to stop watching this show. 1 Dean is no longer a charchter on the show. 2 the show is cancelled or is not renewed. 😮
I am amazed at the depth of anger and criticism that goes on Twitter and on occasion on this site. We are talking about a TVShow. We are talking about fictional characters. As the saying goes beauty is in the sight of the beholder.
If I do not like and episode I do not watch it again…simple answer to the problem. In 8 seasons there are probably 10 episodes I can truly say I do not rewatch. Out of 160 plus episodes that is pretty dam good.
Those who say Dean does not have a story arc because Sam is performing the trials. Well Deans story arc has always been looking out for Sammy. It is recited in many episodes, Johns last words to Dean were to take care of Sammy. Those that complain Sam does not have a story arc…Sam is the brother that needs looking after. But the fact the brothers are together and doing the job they were raised to do is just fine by me.
As my user name indicates I am a Dean girl all the way. You can not give me to much Dean. 😛 I am also Sam curious as the saying goes. I enjoy Cas and Benny. Since most of the people Dean and Sam know have been killed off except Roy&Walt know I need to get over it, the new cast members help to move the story forward and gives the writers more twists and plots to explore (except Adam Glass).
My SPN dream, I would love to see an episode where Dean and Sam swap (A Mile In My Shoes) roles. Dean can be younger and Sam gets to be the older brother. Or we can have Jensen play Sam and Jared play Dean. How about a flash back episode like Jensen mentioned at Vegas Con. The brothers sit around talking about past cases with flash backs…would be a good 2 hr episode 😀
As with many fans this show was there to help me get thru some very tough times in my life and I will be there till the end for the show.[/quote]
I’m sorry, i dont know how to quote specific passages so i quoted the whole thing:
You mentioned that you would stop watchng if Dean was no longer a charector. Well, for many samgiirls this season Sam has been written all over the map at the speeds of sound (light is a measure of distance – thank you for that BBT) So in a way Sam actually is NO longer a charector on Supernatural. Instead he has been turned into a plot devise to cater to the whims of Deans’ bi polor-ness. SAm isn’t allowed to defend himself against any and all accusations Dean levies at him…but Sam will defend Deans best friend Castiel and most likely when Bennyt falls off the wagon, Sam will defend HIM as well…. whom will them get HONEST and practically instant foregivness. Meanwhile Dean will hold grudges against Sam for everything he’s done since he was 5. There is no HONEST foregiveness for Sam…just temporary lapses of grudge hoolding from Dean.
So while YOU love the conflict betweent he brothers, many of us do not because the relationship between Sam and Dean at least IMO is purely a facade. Its a glasss house that is easily shattered by a pebble tossed by a 3 week old infant.
I WISH i could enjoy the brorthers so called relationship…but frankly I cant when i’m waiting for the 10 pd shoe too drop and Dean looseses trust in Cas or Benny and because he feels he cant trust them it also means that lask of trust extends to Sam. And then poor Sam is left with nothing and left out in the cold. And then Sam will put aside his own issues/problems with Dean and try to bridge things between Dean and Cas or Benny.
I wish Sam had his own Castiel (best friend) or Benny (better brother) because I need something on this show to enjoy when i can’t enjoy the Sam and Dean relationship…whcih because of the trumped up conflict and all the passive/aggressive bull crap infects my enjoyment of theiir interactions when they are temporarily on good terms.
I need to see Sam interact and develope relationships with other charectors…charectors he gets to keep. Especially when things between hima dn Dean go FUBAR (as in s8) Sam should get someoen he can talk to. Weather its an actual human being or a Dog of his very own – though Deans sudden and instant hatred of horses and dogs precludes Sam ever having his own pet or confidant. (The fans must have deluged the writers asking why Sam couldn’t keep the dog so they had too write that Dean hates animals…cause what Dean doesn’t want Sam doesn’t get) Dean shouldn’t get to hoard all the side charectors. And Sam should get a story arc (( a well written one3 that the writers actually put thought into) that Dean doesn’t assimilate and turn into all about him. The writers are so careful to make sure Dean is 10000% involved in Sams stories but on the same token they put the same effert to make sure Sam is barelyt in the saem hemisphere when Dean has a story. Dean affects Sams stories on every level…usually more often then Sam does…mean while Sam barely if ever has ANY effect on Deans stories.
And i’m sorry but good god just NO to the idea of the body swap episode. Dean will NEVER EVER learn anything about Sam…first because if he isn’t willing to learn anything by having one honest conversation with Sam he wont by walking in Sams shoes. I’m sorry but Dean just isn’t open minded enough.
[quote]The writers are so careful to make sure Dean is 10000% involved in Sams stories but on the same token they put the same effert to make sure Sam is barelyt in the saem hemisphere when Dean has a story.[/quote]Perfectly said.
Yes to everything you said. It seems we get very little story for Sam that is just Sam’s and none of it from his POV.
I agree with this post Amy. The body swap MIGHT have been effective when Sam was on the demon blood, so Dean could have understood why Sam enjoyed being powerful. Now there is nothing about Sam’s body that could convince Dean of anything, other than he has to duck more when going through low doorways.
This is just to confirm that I understand. If they replaced Sam, you would be okay with it? I mean if that’s what you feel, that’s what you feel. I’m just curious.
I don’t think that is what she (?) said. I think she was saying that that was her “breaking” point. Would any of you still watch the show if Sam were no longer on it? That is fair. Personally if EITHER brother was no longer part of the show that would be the end for me.
I’m with you on if EITHER brother left, I would be out.
Me too. There is no show without Dean AND Sam.
Ditto, ditto, ditto. Thank you! And I am more ‘mature’ than you also! 🙂
Yes, nice post, Gerry. I’m not on twitter, nor have I ever written to a showrunner or a writer, because I would never presume to attempt to dictate the direction a show takes or influence the creative process. Yet, I have felt for a long time that the writers being on twitter is a very bad idea. Like you, I think it’s human nature to be influenced by a small sampling of the fandom.
I’ll be as brief as possible to get my points across, but I’m afraid that this will be a long post. I apologize in advance for that.
My general feeling about the show can be summed up in answer to the question, “Do you have faith in the writers?†and, for me, that is a resounding “No.†I have no faith in the writers, all of whom have been with the show for many years now, and I have no faith in Jeremy Carver as a showrunner.
I had two expectations following the mega disasters of S6 and S7: (1) That Dean be given a storyline that wasn’t dropped, and (2) that the focus not be on support characters again. Neither of those expectations have been met. The brothers may have moved on, but the show did not move me with it this season.
Dean returned from Purgatory an awesome, fearless, decisive hunter who supposedly had a clarity about hunting and being a hunter. In ONE episode, he went from a genius about lore and the best hunter on the plant to clown of the week and dumb as a post about lore.
Meanwhile, Sam, who had been shown for nine episodes to be an ineffective hunter with no heart for hunting, displaying very bad judgment, and making lots of mistakes, went to reluctant hero promising to lead Dean “into the light†(a normal life) if he would just follow him; again, in ONE episode.
Purgatory (the best thing introduced on SPN in years) ended up being a plot tool to bring Benny in as the reason for tension between the brothers and as a means to get rid of Crazy Cas and bring Cas back into the show. I did find Purgatory to be quite an interesting bridge, but a bridge nonetheless, not a Dean story.
I didn’t mind the Samelia story. I could understand that the intent was to show Sam completely devastated by Dean’s death or as a means of breaking the long-used cycle of Winchester death and despair. I expected some outcome from it. It didn’t happen. No character growth for Sam at all, and no explanation for why there was brother tension for ten episodes. Again, in one single episode, the show is back to something is wrong with Sam and Dean worries…and Sam has a special destiny and Dean worries…and Dean worries because he can’t do anything to help Sam, so he prays to Cas to help (i.e., another bridging scene for a support, soon-to-be-regular cast member).
I am making two points here: (1) If the writers are going to introduce plot points, then they need to give some resolution to those points that were introduced. S8 is worse than S7 in that respect, and I thought S7 was worse than S6; and
(2) The abruptness of the neck-jerking change in the two characters is startling, as is going back to very tired, old stories. IMO, this season has the worst characterization, plotting, pacing, and dropped Dean storyline of any season (along with trashing canon right and left).
I also think that support characters are getting too much focus. I expect the writers for the show to actually write stories for the leads. I did want the SPNverse expanded, but I had in mind that it would be with characters that fit more with the premise of the show – that hunting was a demanding and dangerous, but honorable profession. Instead, our two heroes are seeking a normal, mundane life while Everyday Joe and Jane, teenagers, and baby vampire killers step up to the plate.
What will cause me to quit the show? This is the only hour of TV that I watch. I’ll finish out this season, but I’m not sure I’ll be back for S9. If the writers have no interest in the leads (and I feel we are only getting Sam and Dean character sketches) and no comprehension or interest in the original premise of the show (two brothers hunting evil AND SAVING PEOPLE, I have to weigh whether the show is worth the pleasure of seeing JA perform each week. I expect showrunners and writers to stick with the original premise of a show, and this can be done quite easily while growing both the story and the characters. It’s done all the time by network writers.
I think the scenes with Dean not knowing lore were about the show not respecting viewer intelligence, not about Dean. They never had any of the characters say Dean was stupid for not knowing what a familiar was, or not knowing about Greek gods. They acted like this was perfectly natural. They used him to talk to viewers. It was bad writing but I don’t think he’s a clown. They just switch personalities so much and have no continuity. In the episode where Sam said he was the brains and Dean was the brawn, Dean came up with the entire plan to defeat Abadon while Sam was knocked out or captured.
Assuming the audience is not very bright is another pet peeve I have with the writers, but my post was already too long. It all goes back to inconsistent characterization in the end.
It occures to me that on a show that requires the writers too do large amounts of research on the monsters…I dont get why they can’t write intellegently and let the viewers if they are interstesd to do a littel research of their own.
I’d rather they writer the boys as the intellegent men they are supposed to be and if I need to better understand certain things (example: a familiar) I could toddle off to the internet…or GASP! Figure it out by watching the episode and putting one and one together. Or…wait and read one of the many reviews where someone would answer the question.
Most people dont want or need to be spoonfed the monster details. Instead give the time toward charecterization.
This past summer during the hellatus, I found my way to the incredible world of Fan Fiction and decided to take a peek inside. I was blown away by what I found there. Unbelievable amounts of talent. There are some amazing stories there! There are also some really good stories, some good stories and then some…. stories. There are stories with humor, with pain, with comfort and with romance. And then of course there are stories with “comfort†and “romanceâ€. 😮 But most of all there are stories with angst. Lots and lots and LOTS of angst. As the super long hiatus wore on, I found myself with yet another supernatural addiction. And I noticed that sometimes the line between the show and the fan fiction kind of blurred and I had to pause and remind myself which was what.
I am very curious as to how many people here read FF (I’m guessing a lot) and wonder if that could in any way contribute to anyone’s “dissatisfaction†with certain show storylines.
I am also curious as to if anyone besides myself has a huge urge to go on twitter and yell that Glee is beating SPN in the number of fan fiction stories and just sit back to see if the number jumps like crazy. I know….it’s a sickness :-*
PS. To any fan fiction writers here, Thank You for your effort and hard work! You are appreciated!
[quote]I am very curious as to how many people here read FF (I’m guessing a lot) and wonder if that could in any way contribute to anyone’s “dissatisfaction†with certain show storylines.
[/quote]
That’s an interesting question. I will say that I have been involved with (reading and writing) fanfiction for 8-9 years. Lately my “kick” is Supernatural. I’ve found that fanfiction actually contributes to my [i]satisfaction [/i]of the show’s storylines. Because if someone doesn’t like something, or wants a better, more thorough explanation, all they have to do is put their imagination to work and write a fic. It makes it so that the show isn’t all their is. I generally read and write for the sake of the craft, however I’d imagine that Sam fans who want Sam to have more POV might gravitate toward writing/reading Sam-centered FF, etc. I’d imagine it could be quite cathartic, and I highly recommend it.
So being able to write the ending you would rather have (so to speak) is cathartic to you. That makes total sense to me. I guess I was thinking, as a reader rather than a writer, that the alternate “reality” provided by fan fiction might, in some cases, fuel dissatisfaction in the show because of the “perfect emotional payoff” that is provided (through ff) more often than not.
This is NOT a knock against the show or fan fiction. I am [s]not[/s] a Sam girl, [s]nor[/s] a Dean girl,[s]nor[/s] a Cas girl. Love them all! I am in the camp “love the show, warts and all, keep doing what you are doing, don’t mess with perfection”. In other words, as far as the show goes – I’m a happy girl. And I have already declared my new found love for fan fiction. Just curious as to what happens when the two worlds collide.
What name do you write under? I would love to read!
I think you have a point about the “perfect emotional payoff” – there are a lot of…unrealistic elements that come with that, you know? And I know for a fact that some authors of fanfiction have this idea in their heads of who Sam and Dean are that doesn’t align with the show’s reality. If those expectations get crossed, it could certainly lead to dissatisfaction, because they start wanting what they’re getting in fanfiction to be on the screen. Personally, I like the two worlds being separate, and I don’t find my expectations crossing their respective boundaries. SPN is SPN. Fanfiction is SPN +
I don’t know that I want to share my penname publicly…I’m suddenly self-conscious about it. 😳
…aw to hell with it. Just please, nobody send me hate mail/reviews.
It’s ackeberlynn at fanfiction.net.
Exactly my thoughts!
[quote]I don’t know that I want to share my penname publicly…I’m suddenly self-conscious about it. 😳
…aw to hell with it. Just please, nobody send me hate mail/reviews.
It’s ackeberlynn at fanfiction.net.[/quote]
No hate mail here. Totally enjoyed and and highly recommend! Thanks for sharing!
I am on a one way ticket with Supernatural, from season one until the end. If next week everyone dies and they just have dead air for the rest of the season, I will be watching. This show is so amazing and it means a lot to me, nothing will get me to stop watching it.
Funny and true! 🙂
First off IMO the writers should never listen to the fans whatever section is complaining. They should back off and stick to doing their work, which is to produce good, well thought out, and coinvolging episodes for the viewers to enjoy.
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All the twitter stuff is getting to be too much. You know what they say,”Familiarity breeds contempt”and I just think that the writers should stay in the writers’ room and concentrate on their job and never mind the fan feed-back. A little mystery is a good thing.
I really admire Jensen Ackles for the fact that he doesn’t have twitter. Good for you, Jensen!
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Each show however has its theme and SPN’s story-line from the first episode has been about the Winchester family.
First of all there were three, a father and two sons, then just the boys.
Speaking for myself, I fell in love with them and their story. The brothers had two different characters but they were both courageous and willing to lay down their lives for complete strangers.
They had no home, just a black car but that was okay, all they really needed was each other. They fought heroically against more powerful beings than themselves and came out on top; they defended each other to the extremes and were willing to die for one another.
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That was how the show once was, then it started to change and what we have now is no longer what we started with.
The writers have taken those two brothers who used to answer in synch, close the car doors in synch, bump shoulders together, pull each other up concernedly when they were wounded, and get icy revenge on whoever tried to hurt the other, and have filled the show with guest stars of the week watering the show down to a bland soup.
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Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for creative ideas and whatever, but the writers can’t take away the basis of the show which is the unbreakable bond between these two brothers and smash it to bits as they did at the start of season eight.
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I get it that the writers will not address this because they don’t see Sam’s not looking as a big problem and are probably dismissing those who do with a “who cares what those dumb-a** brother- fans think,” but to have depicted Sam as they have is equivalent to have taken Jethro in NCIS and made him leave Abby to die by the road-side when we all know how fond Jethro is of Abby and of all his team.
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Perhaps the writers will fix it next season or the season afterwards but I just don’t believe they care enough.
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However I have bought every season ‘s DVD but I won’t be buying this one. The few episodes I like I’ll watch them on the computer.
[quote]
Each show however has its theme and SPN’s story-line from the first episode has been about the Winchester family
..
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for creative ideas and whatever, but the writers can’t take away the basis of the show which is the unbreakable bond between these two brothers and smash it to bits as they did at the start of season eight.
X
I get it that the writers will not address this because they don’t see Sam’s not looking as a big problem and are probably dismissing those who do with a “who cares what those dumb-a** brother- fans think,” but to have depicted Sam as they have is equivalent to have taken Jethro in NCIS and made him leave Abby to die by the road-side when we all know how fond Jethro is of Abby and of all his team.
X
Perhaps the writers will fix it next season or the season afterwards but I just don’t believe they care enough.
[/quote]
I agree completely. I’ve always been pretty much a happy camper and quite content, even though I haven’t agreed with every decision, to go where the writers wanted to take us. Alice said in her article that everyone has a breaking point ad Sam not looking for Dean is mine. The reason this is such a deal breaker for me is that it isn’t just a story decision, it is IMO a betrayal of everything the show has stood for for 7 years. It destroys Sam’s characters and undermines the brothers bond that is, for me and many, the heart of SPN. That the writers don’t appear to get this has broken my faith in them. I no longer believe in their vision of the show, of Sam, of Dean, of the brothers relationship.
Am I still watching? Yes…but. I very nearly gave up after Citizen Fang which was the worst ep in the shows history IMO. If things hadn’t rapidly (to the point of giving the audience whiplash) turned for the better from then I’d be out of here. I’ve enjoyed the last few eps, but the magic has gone for me with the decision to have Sam not look for Dean, and if it isn’t , as Alice predicts, addressed this season I’m not sure I’ll be back next year.
For me this is an issue on a completely different scale to the usual ‘Dean doesn’t have a myth arc’, ‘when will we see Sam’s pov’ whinging.
Replying to Geordiegirl1967
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Quote [ Alice said in her article that everyone has a breaking point ad Sam not looking for Dean is mine. The reason this is such a deal breaker for me is that it isn’t just a story decision, it is IMO a betrayal of everything the show has stood for for 7 years. It destroys Sam’s characters and undermines the brothers bond that is, for me and many, the heart of SPN. That the writers don’t appear to get this has broken my faith in them. I no longer believe in their vision of the show, of Sam, of Dean, of the brothers relationship.
Am I still watching? Yes…but. I very nearly gave up after Citizen Fang which was the worst ep in the shows history IMO. If things hadn’t rapidly (to the point of giving the audience whiplash) turned for the better from then I’d be out of here. I’ve enjoyed the last few eps, but the magic has gone for me with the decision to have Sam not look for Dean, and if it isn’t , as Alice predicts, addressed this season I’m not sure I’ll be back next year.
For me this is an issue on a completely different scale to the usual ‘Dean doesn’t have a myth arc’, ‘when will we see Sam’s pov’ whinging. ] Quote.
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You hit the nail bang on the head.
The idea of not making Sam look for Dean was a conscious, deliberate decision taken by Carver himself because I believe he stated that he wanted to see what would happen if Sam walked away and didn’t look for Dean.
Well, I’m still waiting to know what happened, for all we have seen is the result of that action, which has been brothers at war with each other for ten hurtful episodes, throwing out old and tired accusations which had already been addressed and forgiven many times in the past , not least over Rufus’ grave with a ‘blanket apology ‘ in season six.
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We have been gifted with the Amelia story-line which unfortunately didn’t have the desired effect of making us love the ‘happy couple’ but what Sam did from the laboratory to meeting Amelia is still shrouded in mystery, and that is far more pertinant and interesting in my opinion than having Amelia treat one of the show’s heroes like a poor deadbeat. Dean and Lisa were a couple made in Heaven in comparison.
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Sam is one of the two leads; I would think that the writers should consider it important to flesh out both their characters and the reason for their actions, for aren’t the Winchester brothers the basis of the show?
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Like you I have very little faith in these writers and I’m basing my opinion on this season where a lot of the writing as been very-under par.
I mean Sam has been to hell for 180 years, then suffered for practically the whole of season seven with torturous Hellucinations and the writers throw in a line for Sam like ” And maybe I’m going to hell for saying this, but I’m not ready to give this up. ” to Amelia. Really.
Then Dean blaming Sam for being soulless when the poor guy was ripped out of the Cage without a soul through no fault of his own.
What about Philippe” Lechat” who turns into a cat, well at least we didn’t get Portia “LeChien” even although she did turn into dog! 🙂
Sometimes the little things annoy one as much as the bigger ones!
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Anyway for me the best episode of the season so far has been “As Time Goes By”.
It has been the only one to deal solely with the Winchester family from beginning to end, and for that alone it has to be commended. When was the last time we got that?
Then it gave us the only truly creative and innovative story-line of the season, that of the Men Of Letters and all the new mythology that it could open up, although things seem to have slowed down a little on that front now although I do love seeing the brothers happy with their new home.
These are the episodes I love, the ones that deal with the brothers and their story; the guest stars are useful to enhance the plot but the brothers must always be front and forward.
What I would love to see is another weechesters episode, pehaps of the young Sam and Dean on their first hunt together. Oh well, one can dream!
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Of course all I have said may become redundant in the future if everything is explained logically but until then….!
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I apologise Geordiegirl1967, for going off at a tangent and ranting on. Sorry. 🙂
[quote][quote]
Each show however has its theme and SPN’s story-line from the first episode has been about the Winchester family
..
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for creative ideas and whatever, but the writers can’t take away the basis of the show which is the unbreakable bond between these two brothers and smash it to bits as they did at the start of season eight.
X
I get it that the writers will not address this because they don’t see Sam’s not looking as a big problem and are probably dismissing those who do with a “who cares what those dumb-a** brother- fans think,” but to have depicted Sam as they have is equivalent to have taken Jethro in NCIS and made him leave Abby to die by the road-side when we all know how fond Jethro is of Abby and of all his team.
X
Perhaps the writers will fix it next season or the season afterwards but I just don’t believe they care enough.
[/quote]
I agree completely. I’ve always been pretty much a happy camper and quite content, even though I haven’t agreed with every decision, to go where the writers wanted to take us. Alice said in her article that everyone has a breaking point ad Sam not looking for Dean is mine. The reason this is such a deal breaker for me is that it isn’t just a story decision, it is IMO a betrayal of everything the show has stood for for 7 years. It destroys Sam’s characters and undermines the brothers bond that is, for me and many, the heart of SPN. That the writers don’t appear to get this has broken my faith in them. I no longer believe in their vision of the show, of Sam, of Dean, of the brothers relationship.
Am I still watching? Yes…but. I very nearly gave up after Citizen Fang which was the worst ep in the shows history IMO. If things hadn’t rapidly (to the point of giving the audience whiplash) turned for the better from then I’d be out of here. I’ve enjoyed the last few eps, but the magic has gone for me with the decision to have Sam not look for Dean, and if it isn’t , as Alice predicts, addressed this season I’m not sure I’ll be back next year.
For me this is an issue on a completely different scale to the usual ‘Dean doesn’t have a myth arc’, ‘when will we see Sam’s pov’ whinging.[/quote]
I totally agree with you guys. Like I said before, the brotherly bond has always been my favorite part of the show. Like you said, how they would always carry each other no matter what and were constantly there for each other and truly did have a bond…like you said, it’s been smashed to bits. Sam not looking for Dean was even worse than when Sam had no soul and let Dean be for a year before showing up. The brotherly bond was the heart of the show, always had been. Their moments were always my favorites, no matter how sad they were it showed their love and trust and affection towards each other (even though the whole 8 seasons they have never directly said I love you to each other). They were always there through everything and trusted each other enough to open up about things that were tough (Dean going through hell, Sam’s reaction to having to kill Madison) and now it’s just like it’s their job to work and they’re just business partners. In A Little Slice Of Kevin, Dean was starting to open up to Sam about how horrible he felt about leaving Cas behind, and Sam just at one point looks around and just says basically for him to move on and pats him on the shoulder and walks away. What????? Sam has been EXTREMELY out of character for a long time now, and it’s really upsetting. How before you could always tell they truly did love and depend on each other, now it just seems forced. There’s so much tension between them and it’s like the only thing keeping them together is hunting. They don’t laugh together anymore, they don’t joke anymore, they don’t open up to each other anymore, or anything. It’s just they’re there to hunt and that’s it. If that’s over, then they’re over at this point. When was the last time they hugged, or truly had a brotherly moment that didn’t seem forced, or cry together over something that happened (like Jo and Ellen, or even Bobby…seriously???) or anything? It’s been a long, long time.
There’s so much I want to say but I’ve already basically said it. That’s upsetting me the most about the show, how the focus was always the brothers and their bond and hunting was just like something they did together for their dad. Now, the show is just the hunting, and their bond, like you said, has basically been broken into bits and pieces. It’s extremely upsetting.
I feel like if it is a small thing, that won’t take away from the story line,they can put it in the show. Other than that-STICK TO THE PLAN!!! We fans are not writers (at least not for the show). They have given us 8 years of wonderful entertainment. If we are EXTREMELY lucky, they will give us 2 to 4 more!! (Personally I would like to see the show go to 12 years. Just to out do everybody else.) I firmly believe if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!!
Dear Alice-
Thank you for this post. I love watching SPN and have watched Seasons 1-7 repeatedly. I am always amazed at what I notice from an episode I’ve watched dozens of times or how something I’ve watched in an earlier episode is reflected in one that occurs years later or vice versa. I enjoy the fluidity of most of the episodes. The fictional characters of Sam and Dean provide this viewer with a comforting stability. Rarely do they act out of character. Dean is more effusive and at times open about his feelings than Sam, but I never get the sense that one character has a better story line than another. I am fixating on the small scene from “Remember the Titans.” Sam and the little boy sat away from the area where the little boy’s father’s corpse was burning. Sam asked the little boy if he’d like to go for an ice cream. The little boy said, “I’d rather stay here.” A little scene, but such a precious one because Sam is sensitive and compassionate and probably sat in the car more than once as a child while Dean and his dad completed a “job.” Maybe Sam the child wanted someone to acknowledge how hard it is for a child to experience the hunter’s life. Maybe Sam the adult wanted to give the little boy what had not been given to him- the acknowledgement that he’s lost his dad, he’s lost his innocence and while ice cream can’t make it all better, maybe it can remind the boy that normal events can still go on. But the boy, like I believe Sam as a boy, refused in a matter-of-fact way. “This is the life I got. I can handle it. You did.” Unspoken words between a man and a child whose lives are momentarily connected.
What’s my point? It is in “the dew of little things that the heart finds its meaning and is refreshed.” I am not sure which poet penned those words, but for me, as a fan of SPN, the small moments are the ones that keep me coming back week after week, month after month, year after year. Those moments remind me how well, how often, and with how much success the writers work to keep the integrity of the emotional relationships between Sam and Dean and the people with whom they come in contact. I find the most effective writers capture the essences of Sam and Dean and in doing so, infuse the characters with fresh emotions. When I watch SPN, I notice the subtleties and find comfort in those traits so endemic to each character. Most importantly, I watch SPN because it is wonderfully written, has actors who continually bring nuances to their well-developed characters and because SPN says to this Air Force brat who spent countless hours riding in a car as a child, sometimes just hanging out with your family listening to tunes on the radio is the closest thing to heaven on earth. LONG LIVE SPN!!!
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you see Leah you were speechless 😀
[quote]What’s my point? It is in “the dew of little things that the heart finds its meaning and is refreshed.” I am not sure which poet penned those words, but for me, as a fan of SPN, the small moments are the ones that keep me coming back week after week, month after month, year after year. Those moments remind me how well, how often, and with how much success the writers work to keep the integrity of the emotional relationships between Sam and Dean and the people with whom they come in contact. I find the most effective writers capture the essences of Sam and Dean and in doing so, infuse the characters with fresh emotions. When I watch SPN, I notice the subtleties and find comfort in those traits so endemic to each character. Most importantly, I watch SPN because it is wonderfully written, has actors who continually bring nuances to their well-developed characters and because SPN says to this Air Force brat who spent countless hours riding in a car as a child, sometimes just hanging out with your family listening to tunes on the radio is the closest thing to heaven on earth. LONG LIVE SPN!!![/quote]
Bravo Valgal, you brought a tear to my eye. 😥 THIS is why I watch and re-watch SPN compulsively.
[quote] It is in ‘the dew of little things that the heart finds its meaning and is refreshed.’ I am not sure which poet penned those words[/quote]
That quote is from Kahlil Gibran in The Prophet. Which, if you have never read it, I[i] strongly[/i] recommend.
It is comments like this that remind me of why I love this show and it’s fans. Very nice Valgal.
[quote]
I am fixating on the small scene from “Remember the Titans.” Sam and the little boy sat away from the area where the little boy’s father’s corpse was burning. Sam asked the little boy if he’d like to go for an ice cream. The little boy said, “I’d rather stay here.” A little scene, but such a precious one because Sam is sensitive and compassionate and probably sat in the car more than once as a child while Dean and his dad completed a “job.” ![/quote]
You know what, he did! At least once. Dean described it to Gordon in Bloodlust in season 2, exactly that scenario except they were burning a monster:
So. I pick up this crossbow. And I hit that ugly sucker with a silver-tipped arrow right in his heart. Sammy’s waiting in the car, and uh, me and my dad take the thing into the woods, burn it to a crisp. I’m sitting there and looking into the fire, and I’m thinking to myself, I’m sixteen years old. Most kids my age are worried about pimples, prom dates. I’m seeing things that they’ll never even know. Never even dream of.
That’s a nice callback to an old episode.
I agree with you, I love the tiny moments more than the battle against the monster of the week also.
Thank you. SPN offers me an escape. Do I love every episode? No. Do I appreciate the professional and creative efforts put forth each episode by the writers, the directors, the actors and all the people behind the scenes who have worked together for years to consistently produce a solid body of work? You bet I do. I love this site because it is a place where I can express my admiration for all the see- the good, the bad, the experimental- the meta episodes and where I can read comments by viewers who are as passionate about their feelings for the show as I am. I savor the intellectual repartee on this site and I am always refreshed with the diversity of insights and explanations. Any work of art, and yes, I do consider SPN as art, which can elicit such a wealth of commentary and concern can only help make us more compassionate, sensitive and empathetic to opinions that may present a world view which differs from our own. To me, that kind of discourse promotes better understanding amongst us all. More to share, more to admire, more to love. SPN rules!!!
i will concede that it’s almost impossible for a showrunner to please most of the people most of the time. in the end, they have to decide what is best for the show.
that being said, i think it’s very important that a showrunner pay attention to all feedback, both positive and negative and use it as a guage to help them determine the most positive way to go in terms of telling their stories; therefore, i think that that there are times when the showrunner does have to acknowledge when their story doesn’t make sense to their audience.
now you say that it is the minority that believes that sam not looking for dean is ooc and thus needs to be explained. but how do you know that this is the minority? i’ve seen posts, many posts from many different sites from many different people all agreeing that the first half of s8 makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
minority/majority it’s all semantics. what i noticed and what i think is important is that all these people share the same grievance. it’s not like different people are saying they want different things…you know the usual stuff….no this time it’s different. this time the problem seems to be unanimous…they all want to know the same thing…that is what sam was doing during those lost months before he hit the dog. what made sam believe dean to be dead?
when people ,whether it’s the majority or the minority all agree on the same issue….they all have the same exact problem….and those people include writers and critics alike, not just us avg. joes, then i’d say there is a problem….a problem that needs to be addressed.
you know i remember from history books and tv another minority with issues….theirs was an actual movement….the civil rights movement…these people were in the minority but that didn’t mean that what they fought for wasn’t valid and right. it’s not about how many are in the fight, it’s about what they are fighting for.
now i know this is no civil rights movement. but even if we are in the minority, that doesn’t mean there is no validity in what we are saying.
if i were a showrunner, even though it may be the minority, but that minority all agreed that it was the same problem that they were having, then as a showrunner i would acknowledge their grievance and see what i can do to fix the problem.
in the ratings game, if you are going to have a successful show, then you have to take into consideration that everyone matters.
again, i know a showrunner cannot please everyone…i’m not saying they should…what i am saying is that if the majority or minority of the audience all share the same exact grievance, then perhaps they should consider the fact that glossing over it and just moving on isn’t necessarily the correct approach… perhaps just a line or two explaining a character’s pov, in this case sam’s, would not only appease the audience but it would most likely have this so called minority singing their praises.
fans do keep the show on the air after all, does a showrunner really want to alienate them when it’s not necessary?
Replying to nappi815
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Very good post and so true, the writers shouldn’t listen blindly to the fans but they should stay true to the show they are writing for, and as practically everyone has a critique, from mild to passionate, to make on Sam’s “not looking” , I would say that those who think that are the majority.
[quote]this time the problem seems to be unanimous…[/quote]
I don’t have a problem with the Sam not looking for Dean. I said it once or twice (ok, 3 times now), but I don’t keep saying that because it gets too tiring…
I don’t know if it’s unanimous within the minority or this minority is too vocal and the ones like me just skip the conversation because it’s useless to put more fuel in it.
[quote][quote]this time the problem seems to be unanimous…[/quote]
I don’t have a problem with the Sam not looking for Dean. I said it once or twice (ok, 3 times now), but I don’t keep saying that because it gets too tiring…
I don’t know if it’s unanimous within the minority or this minority is too vocal and the ones like me just skip the conversation because it’s useless to put more fuel in it.[/quote]
i don’t have a problem with it either. but i understand the plight of those who do have a problem with it. when i say the problem seems to be unanimous, i don’t mean everyone…but all the people who have been complaining have been complaining about that… if that makes any more sense 😆
Hi Alice,
Brilliant article. The topic of public feedback is something I am sadly all too familiar with. (Oh.. the stories I could tell…. only I can`t!!!)
But I will use a real-life example to illustrate the kind of pressure that I suspect showrunners and show writers deal with, and must manage on a regular basis.
I used to live in a small, isolated community where Bingo was an occasional, but HUGE event. And I do mean GINORMOUS. Only about 3000 people lived in the town/village , and many hundred of them would come out to shout B-I-N-G-O. One night, through a bizarre chain of events, I ended up being the Bingo caller. I thought it would be great fun, and really how hard could it be? Ha!
It turns out that every one of the people attending that bingo had a different expectation of how I should call the bingo. I was criticized for:
– calling the numbers too quickly
– calling the numbers too slowly
– calling the numbers too loudly
– calling the numbers too quietly
– skipping some numbers
– favouring some letters
At the end of the night some people smiled at me but made no comment. Some people frowned at me but made no comment. One shook my hand and said I`d done a great job. And one threatened to beat me up as soon as I left the building! (I didn`t really take that one too seriously, although I did have a friend walk me home… just in case.)
I learned some valuable lessons that night. You really can`t please all the people all of the time. There are always going to be people that are dissatisfied with the story (or bingo) you`re telling them. And, it`s a sad truth but people are more strongly motivated to complain and find fault, than to compliment and find things to praise. Think about it – when do you feel most like writing a letter to a company? After an excellent customer service encounter, or the one that left you with a migraine?
I`ve had a lot of time to think about that bingo calling adventure and over time I’ve come to realize that all the people who were complaining were likely right, and wrong. For the people near the speakers, I was too loud. For the people near the back in a large, echoing arena, I was too soft. For the people getting close to a Bingo I was too slow. For the people dabbing 10 cards I was too fast. And for the people who never won, well that was obviously because I never called the right letters or numbers.
I guess what I`m trying to say is that we all bring our own perceptions (dang.. there`s that word again this season!) and biases with us when we sit down to watch Supernatural. If you`re a SamGirl you`re watching for one thing, and a DeanGirl might watch for something else. A bad day at work or a rough week with the family can infuse an episode or even a line of dialogue with a meaning it wouldn`t otherwise have had.
Time and budget are also huge constraints. As of this moment, Season 8 is now completely written. All the fan complaining and praising isn`t going to change anything. It might affect Season 9, a little, but it is unlikely to affect the next 6 episodes.
I think showrunners and writers can course adjust slightly, but only slightly. There`s a gap between writing, filming and airing. For example, episode One is shot in early July and often doesn’t air until late September. If people don`t like what`s in it, that`s not going to change Episode 2 or 3 or 4. They`re already done. And there is no time, opportunity or money to change what’s been digitally recorded and studio-approved.
Do I think they`ve made mistakes? Absolutely (*cough*BOBBY!!!*cough*). Do I hope they will correct them, or explain them? Absolutely. Although I do think I may have to wait for many of the answers, and in some cases probably invent my own. But will I keep watching? Absolutely. And will I ever call another Bingo? Absolutely NOT!! Okay. Probably not. Okay, like 90 % sure that I probably won’t….
Pragmatic Dreamer
Thanks for this, it was so good. Love your Bingo story BTW. Just goe to show you that you can’t please everyone all the time. 🙂
I just love your stories! I could just picture you at a bingo hall getting the evil eye from a bunch of renegade blue hairs.
Yet somehow it relates to Supernatural writing. I do love your perspective.
I am a new fan, esp to the websites, I started watching when I saw episodes on TNT and was literally sucked in to the story of these brothers. I promptly went to itunes and downloaded every episode available and watched them season 1-6 beginning to end at least 3 times before even looking for websites. The story told just touched me in a way that no show ever has before. While doing my marathon watching I did notice inconsistency but they seemed to work out in the end, sure some did not, but you know sometimes life is like that too. I don’t expect a TV show to tie up every lose end. I do expect enjoyment and the unexpected, which I believe I have gotten every season, even if some are not as good as others, I expect we all have our favs. I trust the show-runners and writers to have a plan, a story to tell, within a certain timeline, I am content to enjoy what I get and wait for the story to play out and hope it all comes together in the end. I watch for the brothers, both of them. This is their journey and I am around for the ride and loving it.If a storyline does not play out as I wanted well that was my want, not the shows. I am on twitter and will send my thanks when a show I like plays and not so much when it tanks, that is the extent of my using twitter as far a show is concerned.I do like that some are using twitter to interact with the fans, but don’t feel it is right to bombard them with my wants, they usually know when a show tanks with the fans, but if they have they numbers they are happy, if they ask a direct question, sure go for it! But I enjoy that they interact. Since I am new I am enjoying every live show I can get and do hope it goes for a few more season at least. I am a happy fan and have trust in the show-runner for the most part, writers, not always, but a few duds a season isn’t too bad. and yes, I am in the majority that consider getting of Bobby a terrible idea and also that Sam is OOC this season, but am keeping my fingers crosses that Sam will be cleared up, but it won’t lessen my enjoyment of the show as a total.
Unfortumately for me, Sam not looking for Dean and the IMO totally contrived friction between the brothers is a deal breaker for me. Along with the lack of Sam POV and him not getting to defend himself when Dean was bitching at him for 10 episodes. If Sam had gotten the chance to defend himself by saying that he had looked and finally decided that Dean had died I would have been okay with it.
If it isn’t addressed in some form I may have to decide to leave the show. I will watch the rest of S8 and see where it goes.
I’m also not interested in the angel stories. I find them boring so that will also influence my decision.
That said, I think that to a degree the showrunner should pay some attention to feedback. That is the only way for him to know if something is a problem with a lot of fans.
[quote]Unfortumately for me, Sam not looking for Dean and the IMO totally contrived friction between the brothers is a deal breaker for me. Along with the lack of Sam POV and him not getting to defend himself when Dean was bitching at him for 10 episodes. If Sam had gotten the chance to defend himself by saying that he had looked and finally decided that Dean had died I would have been okay with it.
If it isn’t addressed in some form I may have to decide to leave the show. I will watch the rest of S8 and see where it goes.
I’m also not interested in the angel stories. I find them boring so that will also influence my decision.
That said, I think that to a degree the showrunner should pay some attention to feedback. That is the only way for him to know if something is a problem with a lot of fans.[/quote]
I totally agree with everything you said. It’s a dealbreaker for me too and for many others.
I don’t see that wanting a lead character to play an integral and active role in the main mythology/storyarc as asking too much to be honest, in fact I think it should be a given in a two-lead show. I don’t see how wanting a lead character to have a story told that’s about him rather than reacting to others ALL the time as asking too much.
Fans love discussing plots and speculating what’s going to happen and let’s face it we rarely get that opportunity when it comes to Dean.
I don’t think fan concern makes a difference unless the ratings dip but I won’t stop voicing my opinions in the hope that they might think twice and throw Dean fans a bone when it comes to showing Dean as an active participant in the main story instead of the resident hand-holder for the hero of the hour whether that’s Sam/Cas or Benny.
Whether it makes a difference or not I want to remind them Dean has fans interested in him as an individual not just as one half of a ship or whatever so in the slightest hope they decide to think what they could write for Dean first instead of what they could write for Sam/Cas and how Dean could fit in after I will continue voicing my opinion to them.
When you’ve got things your own way on a show it’s easy to turn the light on those factions who are still hoping for change and make it an issue and forget how you yourself act when you’re not satisfied.
Ironically , if you replace the word “Sam” every time you’ve used the word “Dean” in your comment, you will have MY opinion on the state of the show.
I agree that it’s often worth waiting to see how certain storylines unfold and then later letting one’s disappointment go if things still don’t meet one’s expectations. But I also believe the producers do rely on fan feedback. At the end of the day, ratings make or break a show and it’s easier to have a heads up about problematic issues before the ratings are affected.
Unless they’re part of a multiseason arc, specific storylines come and go. I try not to work myself up over those so much. Where I focus my attention is on the larger, more generic issues. I understand the writers wanting to give more airtime to guest characters so the Js can get a break. But there’s also a fine line re: turning those characters into Mary Sues who not only save the day with their awesomeness but also make the brothers look incompetent in the process. It especially bothers me that recurrent characters like Garth and Charlie are starting to fall in that category.
Many fans have wanted Sam to have a stronger POV. I could totally see how that would have been especially necessary re: his controversial decision not to look for Dean. But I’d go even further and say that Sam gets plenty of plot but imo, the writers don’t always pay enough attention to his characterization.
For Dean, it’s the opposite problem: tons of characterization, not enough plot. I can see why some fans are so furious about how nothing changed in that regard over the last 3 years. Dean’s a lead character and as such, a storyline that’s about him and is even sometimes tied ot the bigger storyline is a reasonable expectation. I’m not surprised to see so much anger in fandom over this issue- it not only limits an amazing character to make him just a reactive player in other people’s stories, it’s kind of insulting too. Sam is actively researching and embracing an actual role in the MOL storyline. Dean’s drinking and reading porn. Sam’s doing the trials. Dean’s wringing his hands. A lot of fans were hoping things would change and become more even handed this season. It’s pretty disappointing when all we’re getting is more of the same old, same old.
And what’s disappointing is that other shows manage to balance out plot/characterization among much bigger casts; it shouldn’t be [i]that[/i] hard when there are only 2 main leads. Should the show runners have to do as fans ask? Of course they don’t have to. Should they at least listen and consider it? I think there’s merit to at least consider the criticisms- fixing these sort of issues could make this terrific show even better.
I don’t quite understand what you mean by “not enough plot” for Dean. Does it really matter which of the boys is holding/ stabbing a knife at the moment? If there was only fighting on screen all the time it would be boring, wouldn’t it? That would probably attract more male audience who’s keen on football, box and such. While “boys” seem to prefer interactive entertainment like computer games or sports, “girls” are more inclined to contemplate and visualize – TV, movies, theater. Also books. Drama, in other words. So for women Dean wringing his hands is sometimes more exciting to watch than any fighting superhero. After all, the show is about people, that’s where its beauty lies. Or did I just misunderstand you?
I don’t want to answer for Heidi, but as a very dissatisfied Dean fan, I will[quote]I don’t quite understand what you mean by “not enough plot” for Dean. Does it really matter which of the boys is holding/ stabbing a knife at the moment? If there was only fighting on screen all the time it would be boring, wouldn’t it? That would probably attract more male audience who’s keen on football, box and such. While “boys” seem to prefer interactive entertainment like computer games or sports, “girls” are more inclined to contemplate and visualize – TV, movies, theater. Also books. Drama, in other words. So for women Dean wringing his hands is sometimes more exciting to watch than any fighting superhero. After all, the show is about people, that’s where its beauty lies. Or did I just misunderstand you?[/quote]
I don’t want to answer for Heidi, but as a very dissatisfied Dean fan, I will give you my view of Dean’s lack of plot. I’ll only give an example from S8, but my personal feelings are that this is something that has a long history in the show.
Plot is the structure of the story and the casual relationships that make up that story. Dean’s S8 story, clearly stated by several of TPTB since Comic Con, was Purgatory. The casual relationships in that story were, of course, Benny and Cas. The total outcome of the plot should be a lesson learned (or a moral lesson learned) for the main character…character growth in some form.
When I look at the Purgatory story, I wonder why it was even shown. Obviously, one casual relationship was Benny, and he was introduced as one of the tension ‘issues’ between the brothers. (I’m leaving out the whole Sam didn’t look for Dean here, of course, which is a given and appears to have been dropped.)
Benny turned out to be a very popular character and we know he’ll be back for at least one episode this season. There is no word on whether he will continue after that (but my guess is that he will, because he turned out to be popular), but at this point, Dean dropped Benny in order to have both feet in the hunt for the demon tablet.
The other casual relationship was Cas. Purgatory was used as a means to clean up Cas’ character and introduce him back into the show. Obviously, he is connected to the angel tablet story, and we don’t know much about that story at this point, except that Naomi is manipulating Cas. So far, Dean is not connected to the angel storyline at all, other than being Cas’ friend. My guess is that Dean will be the plot tool that drives the Cas/Naomi plot.
Additionally, Dean learned nothing from the Purgatory story, nor did he grow in any way as a character. He went from a self-assured, decisive, no-quarter given hunter right back to the S1-S2 Dean who snarks a lot, uses his rubber face, worries about Sam, and cheers Sam on while Sam does the major plots (the demon tablet trials and the MOLs). I might add that it is also irritating that Dean did not accept his legacy as a MOL, and then again, in one episode, he’s all on-board, bragging about it. What happened to change his mind?
In the end, Dean did not have a season plot (a Purgatory storyline) at all. Dean was the plot tool to introduce Benny as a friction point, frictions none of which had any resolution shown, and the angel storyline.
A lead character deserves better than that, especially when you consider that we got whole backstories on Amelia, Benny, and Garth. And, we got complete stories on Kate, the teen werewolf, , Eleanor (the Heartache lady), and got caught up with Charlie and how she is now tired of running and stepped up to accept responsibility now that she knows about the supernatural and she can’t get away from it, and Aaron…same thing as Charlie.
On the opposite end of this spectrum of reluctant heroes, we have the two supposed heroes who are lusting after a normal, mundane life of mowing lawns and doing “honey do” jobs.
It can be frustrating in the interim but sometimes, just sometimes, the Showrunners have a vision and the pay off that is being demanded is coming. The advent of twitter has resulted in some very short attention spans and the kind of entitlement that must be horrifying to actually deal with. In this case it’s less about expectations and more about patience.
Where actual expectations are concerned I think that the showrunners have to walk an improbably narrow tightrope between what people expect, what they think they want and what’s actually good for the show’s long term prospects. I’m actually glad that Carver is following through rather than course correcting as has been obvious in the past two seasons. The other key thing about expectations of the fan vs. the showrunner is that some of the things that we’d love to see (real dragons, more purgatory, some awesome crane shots) cost money that for external reasons the staff don’t have. In fact a lot of the things that have let some fans down can be easily identified less as an internal issue and more as an external limitation.
Thanks, Ginger,now I think I can see your guys point better. And I’m with you on Purgatory line – I too would like to see this Dean’s journey woven into the great scheme of things. As it is, Purgatory is shown as another adventure among many others in Dean’s life. However, I personally was scared seeing Dean in that mode of his when he tortured a monster for information and then killed him. He was just shining with malice. I say – better let him wring his hands, than somebody else’s. I love Dean too much to see him going to the dark side.
[quote]However, I personally was scared seeing Dean in that mode of his when he tortured a monster for information and then killed him. He was just shining with malice. I say – better let him wring his hands, than somebody else’s. I love Dean too much to see him going to the dark side.[/quote]
Me too! 🙂
Oh, I agree. Dean was scarier in the first ten episodes than any monster (including Crowley) they showed in the first ten episodes. But it wasn’t that I wanted Dean to go dark. Sam did that story already, and I didn’t like it the first time around.
What I was hoping for was that Sam would be shown pulling Dean back from going completely Rambo (back from having to be ruthless and fight for his life 24/7). That would have accomplished two things in a coherent manner, IMO. It would have given Sam a chance to explain how devastated he was when he thought Dean was dead (like he was when he pleaded with Dean to just be his big brother in Bloodlust), thus explaining why he fell into bitchy vet’s arms, and it would have shown the brotherhood returned in a sensible way. The brothers would have been reset believably together fighting evil and saving people (the basic premise of the show). It just seemed so logical and would have satisfied all fans, I think.
(Possible spoiler ahead — I’m not sure.)
As it is, how they got from the first ten episodes to the next batch was neck-wrenching and head-scratching and completely alienated most Dean fans. And I’m not talking about only Sam being included in the mytharc while Dean worries about Sam (which JA confirmed at his Las Vegas Meet and Greet), it’s more about the 180 change in both characters from the first ten episodes, without any explanation or reasons shown on-screen.
[quote]What I was hoping for was that Sam would be shown pulling Dean back from going completely Rambo (back from having to be ruthless and fight for his life 24/7). That would have accomplished two things in a coherent manner, IMO. It would have given Sam a chance to explain how devastated he was when he thought Dean was dead (like he was when he pleaded with Dean to just be his big brother in Bloodlust), thus explaining why he fell into bitchy vet’s arms, and it would have shown the brotherhood returned in a sensible way. The brothers would have been reset believably together fighting evil and saving people (the basic premise of the show). It just seemed so logical and would have satisfied all fans, I think[/quote]
Yeah. Speaking as a Sam fan I think what you describe here would have been very satisfying.
Just adding to my post to say that when Dean first returned from purgatory I thought we would be getting a “Dean on the edge” story. It would have worked too having the conflict between the brothers arising from a differing opinion on how to handle cases, ruthlessness vs. results, humanity and compassion etc, all the tropes that have been a mainstay on this show for years. Sam could have “cared” for Dean by reintroducing him to his humanity. Then when Sam took on the trails it could have been Deans turn to “care” for Sam by lending him strength. It would have felt more balanced this way and would definitely have contained enough angst to satisfy even a confirmed angst addict like me, and any conflict that arose would have felt more authentic.
I agree. I would have loved this and it was actually where I thought it might be going originally.
Sam would not of looked for Dean unless his head fell off. It isnt a course correction I needed but a responsible /reasonable explanation and sl that I could of brought into for why that character does something that goes against the grain of who he is.
Not intepid flashbacks , a dog and a angry woman that left you wondering why Sam was anywhere near her .
I do appreciate that it is a rock and hard place for writers and showrunners but sometimes they put themselves in that position rather than fan expectation. I have not been a fan of how Sam has been written for the past 4 seasons and the first half of the season hasnt changed that view point but I am not here to influence the writers to how they should do the show all I can do is express a personal view point.
I consider myself a happy fan. I’m willing to take whatever the writer’s have to give in terms of story as long as the show remains entertaining. As long as the writers show that they care.
I don’t require that the writers cater to my demands. Are there issues I would like to see resolved? Sure. Are there people and events I would love to see addressed again? Sure. But even if those things are never addressed , for me, it’s always about the the story. I trust the writers to give me good stories.
Sure, there are a few episodes I vehemently dislike. You know what? I just won’t watch those again and there are a few of those in every season of every show I have ever watched. I don’t expect to love every single episode. Should I lose interest in the show or the show stop being interesting ,then I’ll walk away. There have been a few shows like that for me.
That said I totally don’t get the whole favoring of one character over another type things I’ve seen on some sites with a lot of Sam bashing and Dean bashing. I’m thoroughly puzzled by that kind of attitude. The show, for me, is about the two of them. They are the primaries. it’s Sam and Dean’s world and everyone else just lives in it. I’ve never in the history of the show gotten the impression that the writers hate one or more of the primary characters. I wonder about the indivuiduals who espouse that idea. I can appreciate their passion but I wonder what show they’re watching, cuz I don’t see what they’re seeing at all.
Amen! 🙂
[quote]I consider myself a happy fan. I’m willing to take whatever the writer’s have to give in terms of story as long as the show remains entertaining. As long as the writers show that they care.
I don’t require that the writers cater to my demands. Are there issues I would like to see resolved? Sure. Are there people and events I would love to see addressed again? Sure. But even if those things are never addressed , for me, it’s always about the the story. I trust the writers to give me good stories.
Sure, there are a few episodes I vehemently dislike. You know what? I just won’t watch those again and there are a few of those in every season of every show I have ever watched. I don’t expect to love every single episode. Should I lose interest in the show or the show stop being interesting ,then I’ll walk away. There have been a few shows like that for me.
That said I totally don’t get the whole favoring of one character over another type things I’ve seen on some sites with a lot of Sam bashing and Dean bashing. I’m thoroughly puzzled by that kind of attitude. The show, for me, is about the two of them. They are the primaries. it’s Sam and Dean’s world and everyone else just lives in it. I’ve never in the history of the show gotten the impression that the writers hate one or more of the primary characters. I wonder about the indivuiduals who espouse that idea. I can appreciate their passion but I wonder what show they’re watching, cuz I don’t see what they’re seeing at all.[/quote]
Amen… I’m relatively new to the show and this site and the one thing I have trouble understanding is the bashing of the characters, whether it be Sam or Dean. It’s understandable to have a favorite character, or one you can more closely relate to, but not to the point of trashing the other one because Dean didn’t get to do the trials, or you didn’t like that Sam didn’t look for Dean, or you think your favorite isn’t getting a good story arc. Just a reminder…. the actors don’t write or run the show; I’m sure they make their feelings known when they think something doesn’t seem right, or is out of character but ultimately it’s not their call.
Overall I’ve been very happy with the writing and direction of the show this season. There have been a few clunkers and consistency issues with character development but overall it’s been a good season and a vast improvement to S7.
…. and count me on Team Winchester!
I have mixed feelings on show runners listening to the fans. I’m actually going to use a non-Supernatural example. Years ago Knots Landing was doing well in the ratings. It was well respected even by critics and very well written. Then the show runner changed and with him the show went on a tangent that made most of the characters seem OOC. The vision did not fit the show as it had been for years. By the time the show runner was let go and they tried to course correct, it was too late and it was canceled shortly after. So the fact that a show runner, especially a new show runner, has a vision does not mean that sticking to it is a good idea in and of itself.
I have had issues with Supernatural since season four, TBH. I have not left, obviously, but with each passing year, I have become less and less happy with the show. I admit to being one of those awful people who has contacted TPTB, although I tend not to tweet. As I’m sure people have noticed, I don’t work well with a limit of 140 characters. I have written letters over the years about my concerns and unhappiness. Since many of the issues I wrote about are still part of the show, I can rest comfortably knowing that what I want has in no way affected the directions the writers have taken.
I’m not sure what will make me break with the show irrevocably. I have drawn several mental lines in the sand and then stuck with the show when my wishes weren’t met. The Sam not looking for Dean is rapidly becoming a real potential break point for me, not because of it in and of itself, but because it is a microcosm that illustrates my biggest problem with Supernatural.
Sam not looking for Dean without a coherent explanation (saying both I thought you were dead AND you could have been eating tacos in another town, is not coherent enough for me) is just the latest in a long line of Sam behaves “badly” without adequate insight as to why and without any kind of sympathetic view of his actions. Heck on OUAT, the main villains have murdered hundreds of people, committed rape, kidnapping and we still see enough of their reasons that we can understand their horrible actions and see them as people. With Sam I don’t get that emotional reason for his actions that makes him relatable. I still love Sam, but I have to create mindsets that the show refuses to state or refute. Sam acts and we have no idea why. This would be fine if Sam were actually making “good” choices, but the show has come down fairly hard on the side that Dean knows what’s best and if Sam disagrees he will always be proven wrong. The convergence of little to no Sam POV and Sam always making the wrong choice is driving me away from the show. Dean gets to decide which monsters deserve to live and which ones are irretrievably evil. If Sam disagrees we get 2 entire episodes showing us the goodness of Benny, Dean’s friend AND Sam gets to be silent as to why he doesn’t trust Dean’s judgement on this which defaults to Dean is right, right right and Sam is either stupid or evil to not go along with Dean’s beliefs (murdering Benny because Sam is jealous is evil and that is a current theory as to why Sam doesn’t just throw up his hands and say Dean is right, I am wrong). Spoilers for a future episode have me concerned that this pattern of Dean being the only one whose judgement can be relied upon will continue over to the human world as well. Having one brother always be right and the other always wrong is very unbalanced and really takes away from my ability to enjoy the show.
The first half of this season deeply tainted the show for me. I am trying to give the writers an entire season to see where they are heading, but it is getting harder and harder.
I will say that one ambiguous statement from a character who had only 20 minuets screen time (Mary saying I’m sorry to Sam) and allowing that to be resolved years later is different to me than a major character doing a 180 from his previous behavior with no explanation (Sam not looking for Dean). Also suddenly bringing up all the failures that Sam has made for the entire run of the show even the ones he made amends for only to drop them is very disconcerting. I reeks to me of reminding the audience that Sam must NEVER, EVER be trusted and only Dean is good. All this is pushing me away. What will my break point be and will I ever reach it? I honestly don’t know. I suspect it will be something I never saw coming. I am very attached to Supernatural, but I have left shows before and I can’t rule it out here. Should the show listen to my complaints, probably not. It seems to be doing fine as it is, but that doesn’t mean I’m happy.
I will say that one ambiguous statement from a character who had only 20 minuets screen time (Mary saying I’m sorry to Sam) and allowing that to be resolved years later is different to me than a major character doing a 180 from his previous behavior with no explanation (Sam not looking for Dean). Also suddenly bringing up all the failures that Sam has made for the entire run of the show even the ones he made amends for only to drop them is very disconcerting. I reeks to me of reminding the audience that Sam must NEVER, EVER be trusted and only Dean is good. All this is pushing me away. What will my break point be and will I ever reach it? I honestly don’t know. I suspect it will be something I never saw coming. I am very attached to Supernatural, but I have left shows before and I can’t rule it out here. Should the show listen to my complaints, probably not. It seems to be doing fine as it is, but that doesn’t mean I’m happy.[/quote]
Okay now see, this is what I’m talking about. I just don’t get it. I don’t see it as a 180 turn for Sam to behave that way. Could the showrunners be a little more upfront with what and how sam was thinking after dDan’s death? Sure. If they give it I’ll take it. But right now I’m willing to go with what little they’ve given me. I’ve sat through the brothers doing all kinds of things to one another that I didn’t agree with and haven’t left the show.
I do hhave a favorite character though. It’s Dean but only because as the oldest child in my family I know exactly where Dean’s head is at. I always understand dena’s motivations for doing anything.
Maybe the reason idon’t see what you see in Sam is becasue I have younger siblings who are thoroughly inexplicable in their behaviour and while that’s exasperating , Istill love them deeply. In my mind Sam is just another younger sibling whose behaviour I don’t get, just like my own, so I can tolerate whatever he does without getting wound up about it.
That said; I do have issues with the beginning of the season. I hated Sam’s flashbacks because they explained absolutely nothing about what was going on in his hand unless it was Amelia who was supposed to express Sam’s thoughts and I couldn’t stand her. That experiment went horribly wrong if that was the writer’s goal. I’m not going to be rewatching too many of the episodes from the beginning of this season, That’s how I’m going to handle it. And some of them I’m going to pretend don’t exist at all. (I took that approach with all of the mythology episodes of the X-Files.)
To be absolutely fair to you, I hate season 7. It’s the worst season ever, closely followed by season 6, but there were a number of indiviual episodes that I still enjoy rewatching.
I usually decide if the season is good or bad based on how far the mythology is advanced and how many individual episodes I rewatch. I only like 3 episodes from season 7 and I refuse to watch Bobby die again so I won’t be watching that one again for a long time.
[quote]Maybe the reason idon’t see what you see in Sam is becasue I have younger siblings who are inexplicable in their behaviour and while that’s exasperating , Istill love them deeply. In my mind Sam is just another younger sibling whose behaviour I don’t get, just like my own, so I can tolerate whatever he does without getting wound up about it.
[/quote]
Maybe to have family members act in an inexplicable manner works to a certain extent in the real world (although, neither of my younger siblings is inexplicable to me) but this is a television program that has TWO (2, dos, deux, due, zwei) lead characters around which all of the events of the created world revolve. It is bad TV to show the perspective, headspace, decision making and emotions of only one of those two main characters. It is incomplete and unsatisfying writing IMO.
Perfectly said E.
It is incomplete indeed. And unsatisfying!! I agree so much, and this season will only getting a whole season for me if Sam is fixed. They need to fix Sam for me to be able to enjoy the whole season! I tend towards overlooking all the other weak plot story lines if Sam’s is fixed. Sadly there is only a whole for me when this is happening!
Sorry I meant “ignore” instead of “overlooking”
Hi lkeke35,
[quote]Could the showrunners be a little more upfront with what and how sam was thinking after dDan’s death?[/quote]Problem is they are never upfront about Sam (this started after season 3),Dean goes to hell Sam is mysterious,Sam goes to hell Sam is mysterious,Dean goes to purgatory again Sam is mysterious.Dean thought he left Cas and immediately it is solved.It kind of is unfair to me that I have to make up ideas about Sam everytime and wait for the writers to confirm or negate it at the end of the season
This is sadly true and my biggest problem with Supernatural.
[quote]This is sadly true and my biggest problem with Supernatural.[/quote]
Mine, too.
Maybe the writers should listen to all fans on twitter. And give Destiel shippers a chance.
[quote]Maybe the writers should listen to all fans on twitter. And give Destiel shippers a chance.[/quote]
No Destiel. Dean is firmly hetro.
I think the idea of Dean as Gay or Bi is certainly an intriguing concept but I don’t think that’s ever going to happen. I would be terribly shocked if they did (as Ive never thought of Dean as Gay) but not because the character is Bi/Gay. I’d be shocked that they actually did it. The writer’s don’t seem to me to be that adventurous.
(Please forgive typos in last post. I’m a lousy typist, is all.)
[quote][quote]Maybe the writers should listen to all fans on twitter. And give Destiel shippers a chance.[/quote]
No Destiel. Dean is firmly hetro.[/quote]
Agreed, Jo!
Please, please don’t fire that one up again!! 😉
I know. I was being a bit sarcastic. Sorry. But that’s what might happen if TPTB start to listen too much to vocal fans.
🙂 Caught the sarcasm, with you on listening to vocal fans!!
Of course the writers will pay attention to what the fans are saying! That’s one way to check the waters, and it will reflect on the ratings, which is the most important part of the business. No money, no show. As simple as that.
The question is, where are our opinions in the statistics charts? . Are we in the majority or in the minority? (that’s as far as my statistics knowledge goes).
A good example will be this season. Fans where complaining at the end of last season that the show was not like before (majority), so, this season they are bringing little by little some of the things form the past. But guess what? Now some fans are complaining that the show is back to the same old. Judging from the ratings, the old formula is working.
On the other had, numbers don’t tell the whole story, another example will be, Route 666. I didn’t like that episode, specially after watching Faith. Route 666 turned out to be the most watch episode of the history of the show (Now that they are trying to go back to basics, I’ll bet they saw those numbers and wanted to do something like that and BOOM! the awful Man’s Best Friend with Benefits came to life).
This is why, in my opinion, TV shows in order to survive need ratings, to get ratings they have to listen to what the majority of fans wants and then is when fan expectations are meet. Majority rules, even if we don’t agree.
Now, as fan of the show, it meets my expectations, they are always a couple of episodes that I don’t like per season (and they had nothing to do with the awful Sam/Amelia story). As long as they keep me interested, amazed, in owe and giving me something to make my inventiveness alive and good acting (I’m not worry about the leads and Misha) I’ll be happy.
About that Dean vs. Sam plot. It is to much drama for me. I don’t get it.
I understand that everybody perceives things based on their own experience, education, age, upbringings, etc. That everybody is entitle to their opinion and we are free to put it wherever they accept us. But to me, it just don’t make justice to an awesome show.
Excerpt from a report on Jared’s meet and greet at vegascon
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[ He said that he felt that the Amelia storyline was somewhat weak. Nothing to do with Liane Balaban’s performance, but the story line didn’t fit well with Sam’s character. Jared also didn’t like the fact that Sam didn’t look for Dean. ]
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When the actor himself amswers a question showing the same reservations as a great section of the fans, then obviously the problem was a bone of contention for the actor himself who had to go against the way he knew his character would/should have reacted to Dean’s death.
This is why I feel bad for Jared! Jensen may not have liked S6’s arc with Ben and Lisa, but at least his character wasn’t destroyed for the sake of that story. I actually had no problem with Dean fulfilling Sam’s wish; my problem was always with Dean’s sudden love for Lisa – a woman he barely knew.
What Carver did to Jared was much worse. He basically took the foundation of the show – the brothers’ bond and deep love for each other – and smashed it to smithereens when it comes to Sam. Whereas it used to be brothers would do anything for each other, now, it’s just one-sided.
No proper explanation has ever been given as to why Sam did not investigate. It makes no sense and is inexcusable.
[quote]This is why I feel bad for Jared! Jensen may not have liked S6’s arc with Ben and Lisa, but at least his character wasn’t destroyed for the sake of that story. I actually had no problem with Dean fulfilling Sam’s wish; my problem was always with Dean’s sudden love for Lisa – a woman he barely knew.
What Carver did to Jared was much worse. [i][b]He basically took the foundation of the show – the brothers’ bond and deep love for each other – and smashed it to smithereens when it comes to Sam. Whereas it used to be brothers would do anything for each other, now, it’s just one-sided. [/b][/i]
No proper explanation has ever been given as to why Sam did not investigate. It makes no sense and is inexcusable.[/quote]
I agree 10000%.
You know isleofskye, you’re leaving out that he has also said as an actor, you work with what’s on the page. He and Jensen have both said that a lot at cons. Actors disagreeing with writing direction has always happened in the history of acting. I could list countless examples. The point is, very few get super upset over it because they know it’s their job to work with what they’re given. That’s in the job description.
That makes me sound like I’m defending the Amelia storyline though, and I’m not. Jared has every right to give an opinion of what he thought of the storyline. Just notice though how Jared isn’t making a big fuss over it. He’s still happy with his job. To him, it’s not a dealbreaker.
[quote]
Just notice though how Jared isn’t making a big fuss over it. He’s still happy with his job. To him, it’s not a dealbreaker.[/quote]
Of course not, alice. I certainly wouldn’t expect it to be a dealbreaker.
He’s an actor with a steady job, a contract, and a cast and crew that are like family to him. It’s an actors heaven, whatever the writers do to his character.
I’m pleased that Jared has acknowledged some level of dissatisfaction with the plotline, because I agree that no one knows Sam like Jared does, but what he said has no impact on how I as a viewer have responded to it.
I know that Jared is a team player and is more than happy with his job and I was not trying to infer otherwise.
I also get it that there is probably no actor in the entire Hollywood who is always happy with what they’re given to do by the writers.
X
I’m merely pointing out that the actor who has played Sam Winchester for eight years and knows his character probably better than the writers do, felt as many viewers have, that his character was written out of synch in this particular ‘not looking’ instance.
X
Here we had a very uncharcteristic choice made by Sam with no explanation except a very superficial one.
All that was neeeded was for the writers to be a little clearer and more logical, and no-one would probably have found anything to nit-pick.
X
Writers can make mistakes just like everyone else and in this case I feel they made one.
But that’s just my unimportant opinion and counts for nothing. 🙂
X
Just to say, I remember when Jensen complained in season six of not finding himself at ease with playing opposite Robo-Sam. I would have thought the OOC Sam of the first ten episodes this season was even more difficult to cultivate a feeling with.
From what I remember, Jensen was uncomfortable w/domestic Dean as well. He couldn’t get a handle on it.
Jared and Jensen have to work w/what they’re given . . . no one is disputing that, but I think it’s harder to make it work when you, yourself, don’t understand why the character is behaving the way the character is behaving. And if the writers aren’t giving the actors the proper motiviation, explanation, etc. for any OOC actions, then the actors are at a great disadvantage IMO. I don’t think it does the actors any favors when you don’t give them full knowledge of the story and plan for the character. Just look at Genevieve’s Ruby as an example.
I can just imagine Jared trying to play Sam when Sam is behaving in a way that makes no sense to Jared. How is he supposed to do that and make it work? And now that the whole story has played out, I can’t say I’m surprised he was less than thrilled w/it. There was no motiviation or explanation for Sam’s behavior.
I wish someone had asked about Sam’s irrational (IMO) hatred for Benny. I’d love to know what Jared felt about that. Sam’s instant dislike for Benny never made much sense to me given Sam’s history.
I think I remember him saying that he thought Dean would never have gone to stay with Lisa and Ben thus puting them in danger, which did happen and Dean went with the not very satisfactory method of a mind-wipe, leaving them even more open to danger, given that the demons know about them but they don’t remember the demons!
X
I agree with what you say about the actors. If both Sam and Dean have been portayed in a certain way and then the actors are asked to do a turn about, it can’t be easy for them. Even Dean saying that Benny was a better brother than Sam is totally unconvincing to me because that phrase negates the essential part of Dean that makes him who he is.
X
I think fan feedback to the writers, producers, cast&crew of the show is a wonderful thing.
I just really, really hope that it doesn’t have too much impact to the story development.
Our fandom is very talented, and engaged, and passionate. But we shouldn’t forget that it’s also very diverse – and that’s a very good thing!
If the writers would cater for one part of the fandom, there most certainly will be another part that fiercely dislikes that decision, and vice versa.
It must be pretty difficult to find a common denominator every single one of us feels comfortable, and happy with.
But I hope TPTB continue to show us their vision as they see it – the way I see it, it has mostly worked until now!
There is clearly a lot of unhappiness about the Sam/Amelia storyline and Sam not looking for Dean. Personally, I could understand Sam not looking for Dean but do agree that the writers did a poor job of explaining why, or not explaining at all for that matter.
I just don’t think we’ve gotten the whole story yet and there’s more to it. Not saying they’ll revisit Sam/Amelia (let’s hope not), just the back story of what happened. Went back and watched a lot of the first half of S8; one thing that kind of stuck out was the fact that Amelia’s husband Don was discovered alive after being declared dead. That certainly happens in the military during times of war but is very rare, and given Sam’s experiences with dying (many times) and coming back, and the timing of it, you would think that this would have gotten Sam’s Supernatural-spidey senses tingling, wouldn’t it?
njspnfan: I agree. I thought the timing of that was pretty fishy, occuring as it did just around the time Dean got out of Purgatory.
[quote]The issue right now for some fans (and yes, it’s only some) is they can’t get past the idea that Sam didn’t look for Dean after he went to Purgatory. The daily demands on this site alone that this be addressed is dizzying! There are those going so far to say that the show is ruined for them if this isn’t resolved. Except it is resolved. The characters in the story have moved on and gotten past it. That doesn’t mean that the writers aren’t ever going back to that plot thread. Probably not this season, but who’s to say that it won’t be dealt with someday? Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. I think that in following the course of the story, if the dramatic timing is right to have that talk, it’ll be done. If not, it’s just another loose plot thread that is often left to the imagination in these TV shows. [/quote]
Thank you for this blog, and the above. Sometimes things are left to the imagination, which means there are so many theories as to what happened to Sam immediately after Dean disappeared. I, too, would love to see move, but, if I don’t, I have my own ‘acceptable to me’ theory about what happened, and in no way does it diminish my love for the show.
I’m very much in the ‘happy’ category and have complete faith in the creative team at Supernatural. Sure, we have a handful of episodes in each season that are not perfect (Man’s best friend with benefits, most recently)… but for the most part we’ve had some of the most brilliant & entertaining episodes of television EVER (in my opinion) – The French Mistake, Changing Channels & this year’s LARP and the Real Girl for starters.
I’ve never been so invested in a show as I am with Supernatural. I’ve watched it from the beginning (as I was looking for something new after the X-Files finished), but it’s only in the last couple of years that I’ve begun devouring all the extras on the DVDs, the SPN novels, the season companions, the convention videos, etc. It’s a whole new world for me. I’m also going to my first convention in Vancouver this year 😀
I’m also very new to reading all the comments (and commenting myself) here on TWFB. I love it – there is so much passion from everyone about this little show that we all love – but I wouldn’t want to see the creators of the show taking too much notice. As I said many times, I’m very happy to sit back each week and enjoy the twists and turns of this wonderful show.
oi eu sou brasileira, por isso falo portugês, se não fosse o Crome eu não leria metade das coisas que leio sobre tudo, mas tenho uma grande paixão por Sobrenatural e toda essa história, percebo que a maioria dos fãs são mulheres … hoje depois de assistir a serie toda, novamente, e ler esse artigo que diz que nós fãs, que mesmo não tendo dinheiro suficiente para participar das convenções e podem até não falar em inglês possam ter alguma chance de ter voz… é difÃcil acreditar que sim, mas terei esperança de poder ser maioria … antes da série acabar !!
eu adoro tudo e gosto também do jeito do Sam, não querer procurar Dean é como Sam é não quer dizer que ame mais ou menos o irmão!!! foi duro para nós fãs e para Dean mas isso é o personagem Sam ele sempre foi assim dês do 01.01.. então
se alguém me ler e quem sabe me entender kkk
EU REALMENTE ACREDITO QUE O QUE FALTA AGORA É UMA DESCENDÊNCIA, ISSO FILHOS, TODA A HISTÓRIA CAMINHA PARA ISSO, TUDO O QUE ELES SABEM E SÃO É POR CONTA DISSO A DESCENDÊNCIA E NÃO É POSSIVEL QUE OS IRMÃOS SEJAM O PONTO FINAL DE UMA LINHAGEM QUE ACABOU DE COMEÇAR!! HOMENS DAS LETRAS E CAÇADORES EM UM SÓ SER!!! ESSES MENINOS TEM QUE PASSAR ESSE LEGADO PARA ALGUÉM DE QUE ADIANTA TER UM LEGADO E QUEIMÃ-LO TODO??
bom Ben e Lisa eram uma boa opção mas ela se foi (pode voltar?? quem sabe!!) mas não importa da onde venha, de quem venha.. pode ser até aquela ex do Dean da primeira temporada!!! ela pode ter tido um filho dele não pode?? ou algum perdido por aÃ.. mas (na minha opinião e espero que seja a de muitos) eles têm que ensinar isso tudo para alguém.. mesmo que a série acabe … para nós fãs nunca vai acabar completamente … e eles realmente precisam deixar o legado deles para alguém!!
quem sabe alguém importante leia isso… ou não … mas foi bom protestar 😉 e querer que alguém me ouça!!!
Translation (thanks to Google) for those who want to know:
hi I’m Brazilian so I speak Portuguese, if not for the Crome I would not read half the stuff I read about it, but I have a great passion for Supernatural and the whole story, I realize that most fans are women … Today after watching the whole series again, and read this article that says we fans who do not even have enough money to attend conventions and may not even speak English may have a chance to have a voice … is hard to believe so, but I will hope to be most … before the series is over!
I love everything and I also like the way Sam, Dean does not want to look like Sam is not to say that is more or less the love brother!! was hard for us fans to Dean but that’s the character he has always been like Sam’s des .. 01:01 then
if someone who knows me and read me understand kkk
I REALLY BELIEVE THAT NOW IS A LACK OFFSPRING, THAT CHILDREN THROUGHOUT THE HISTORY WALKS FOR THIS, ALL KNOW WHAT THEY ARE AND THAT IS WITH A OFFSPRING AND IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BROTHERS ARE FINAL POINT OF A LINEAGE THAT JUST STARTED! MEN OF LETTERS AND HUNTERS IN ONE BEING!! THESE BOYS HAVE TO PASS THAT LEGACY FOR SOMEONE THAT PROFITS HAVE A LEGACY and burn it ALL?
Good Ben and Lisa were a good option but it was (can return? maybe!) but no matter where you come from, who will .. may even be that the former Dean of the season!! she may have had his child can not? or some lost there .. but (in my opinion and I hope the many) that they have to teach anything to anyone .. even if the end serial … for us fans will never end completely … and they really need to leave their legacy for someone!
maybe someone important read this … or non … but it was good;) protest and want someone to listen to me!!
eu não sei inglês e esse google tradutor não fica tão bom.. mas valeu… não passa o sentimento que eu queria passar.. quando li a tradução para o portugues do ingles traduzido… que confusão!! mas veleu!!
eu falo eles deveriam ter filhos para ensinar o que sabem muito triste não ensinarem tudo o que sabem a alguém
obrigada
(translation google) I do not know English and that google translator is not so good .. but thanks … is just the feeling that I wanted to spend .. when I read the translation into Portuguese translated from english … what a mess! but veleu!
I say they should have children to teach what they know very sad not to teach everything they know someone
thank you
Olá, Agra Priscilla, eu também sou brasileira.
Concordo com voce que Sam e Dean merecem ter filhos mas apenas depois de terminada a série. Parece ser o sentimento da maioria dos fãs, com o qual concordo, que ter crianças andando no banco de trás do Impala não combina com a série. É difÃcil aguentar uma mulher para os rapazes, pior ainda mulher com crianças.
Agra Priscilla, se você sabe pelo menos um pouco de inglês, tente escrever e passar as suas idéias. Pessoas de vários lugares do mundo escrevem aqui e nem todos são fluentes em inglês, mas as pessoas são muito amigáveis e tentam compreender uns aos outros. Não é possÃvel conversar cada um em sua lÃngua materna porque ficaria uma loucura e não legal para quem não entende a lÃngua, mas tente se comunicar em inglês do seu jeito.
Dê uma chance e tente – esse site e as pessoas que escrevem aqui são ótimas, vale a pena!
Hey, for everyone who can’t understand Portuguese (almost everyone here, I presume!) 😀
Hello, Agra Priscilla, I’m Brazilian, too!
I agree with you that Sam and Dean deserve to have children but only after the end of the series. This seems to be the feeling of the majority of the fans, with which I agree, because having children riding in the backseat of the Impala does not fit the series. It’s hard to stand women for the boys, even worse women with children.
Agra Priscilla, if you know at least some English, try to write here in English enough to make you thoughts known. People from all around the world write here and not all are fluent in English, but people are very friendly and try to understand each other. We cannot talk to each other in their mother language because it would be crazy and impolite for those who don’t speak the language, but try to communicate in English in your own way.
Take a chance and try it – this site and the people who write here are awesome, it’s worth it!
Ale, ufa achei que era a única, eu sempre curti bastante a série mas nos últimos tempos estou tendo mais contato, e também não penso em crianças no impala .. seria ruim mesmo …. pensei em um filho grande já kkk uma coisa assim, ou que fizessem um grupo, mas o grupo não carrega o mesmo sangue, por isso pensei em filhos… não bebes nem crianças mas já grandes que entendessem e quisessem essa vida… alguma coisa que se encaixasse na história, mas não só no final como “felizes para sempre” .. isso seria frustrante… bom melhor do que eles morrerem isso é!!!
e quanto ao inglês nunca gostei e nunca me interessei.. quem sabe esse seja um ponto de partida para o aprendizado gostei muito do que li por aqui !!
(google translate)Ale, phew thought I was the only one, I’ve always quite enjoyed the series but lately I am having more contact, and do not think of children in impala .. it would be bad …. I thought of a great son kkk already a thing, or that make a group, but the group does not carry the same blood, so I thought in children … babies or children but not great already and wanted them to understand that life … something that would fit in the story, but not just at the end as “happily ever after” .. this would be frustrating … good better than they die it is!!
and as the English never liked and never interested .. maybe this is a starting point for learning really liked what I read here!
Yes. Beautiful words, racestaffer. This is EXACTLY how I have understood Sam’s actions, and I believe this is what the writers’ intended with the Sam/Amelia story, even if it turned out to be less than satisfying or too subtle for some. Context is everything, and when you take the obvious pieces and put them together as you did here so eloquently, the less obvious bigger picture suddenly comes to light.
Thanks for the response, racestaffer. I’m quite sure there are excellent reasons for what Sam did or didn’t do, and your thoughts are quite eloquent.
I can understand that kind of a response. It’s very human. And, in light of what we’ve seen on the show, I’ve assumed that is somewhat of how Sam responded.
In my deleted post above, I explained why that simply isn’t what I needed to see. I’m glad it works for others.
If the plot line remains this way, well, I guess I’ll have the summer hiatus to think about whether I’ll watch season 9.
Alice,
I would like to answer your question as to whether the writers should listen to fan feedback. I have given this question a lot of thought this season.
Yes, I think the [i]showrunner [/i] of every show should be aware of fan feedback. If you look at TV as a business, then the writers are creating the product. They have a distribution channel (their network) and we, the fans, are the consumers of their product. Every successful business seeks the feedback of its consumers. This should be no different.
If the showrunner is, in fact, responsible for the success of the product that is being marketed (our beloved Show), there should be a formal channel for our feedback. Of course, we can all write letters to the network. This has its place, but given the current state of social media, this seems antiquated and slow.
I believe the network, or at least a genre show like SPN, should have someone monitor the major blogs and review sites, and [i]synthesize [/i] the feedback for the showrunner. I think it is responsible behavior to know how people are reacting to your ideas. I think the show runner should know that x% of the comments do or don’t like a particular arc, thread, character, etc. or that there has been a massive upswing in the volume of comments about something. The feedback should be summarized, though, with all of the passion filtered out. This way the points can be communicated respectfully and impartially.
Now, I also believe it is the showrunners responsibility to assess how to react to this input. I do not think they should have knee-jerk reactions to every whim of fandom. I think they should consider the feedback carefully. If they can correct a course of action that they miscalculated, then they should do so. If they believe an unpopular part of the show is important for some reason, however, then they should stick to their plan. As the leader of the show, I believe they should always seek information, but then they have to decide what to do with that information (the same as everyone else in a leadership position).
I am not in favor of individual writers creating their own identity on Twitter, [i]on behalf of the show.[/i] If they have a long standing role in the industry and they want to comment on industry matters, maybe – they are individuals, after all, free to do what they want. But I do not think this should be a channel for feedback on active plots. This brings us to the point noted by Julie Plec -too much input that cannot be vetted, understood, or assessed properly. The writers are then also vulnerable to people that are disrespectful, or want to make their point heard above all other viewpoints.
So someone behind the scenes summarizing fan’s reactions for TPTB. The people in charge then quietly decide how to react to that feedback. I don’t think it is a question of trusting the writing staff. There is no question that they have a great deal of talent. After all, they have given us a show that we are passionate about! Sometimes things just come together a little differently than planned or foreseen, so why not hear what people have to say? It never hurts to listen, but I would never want them to relinquish the power or judgement to make the final decision based on their vision.
I would really expect that this is what is already happening. Speaking as a fan, though, it would be nice to know that someone was seeing our input.
nightsky, I am once again in awe of your post. I agree completely. I have never written a letter (or posted anything to their social media accounts besides a “Great episode” on twitter) to any show. The most I’ve ever done is post comments on reviews or this blog. So I don’t really expect for my voice in particular to be heard.
And the showrunner can’t react to every trend and cave to every suggestion. But like you said, they should be aware of how fans are reacting and decide if what they showing us is being perceived in the way thought it would be. And then decide whether not a course correction is necessary or if they want to stick with the original plan.
In this particular case, I think the point is probably moot for this season. I’m guessing most of the episodes having already been filmed and all have been more or less written. So any course correction, if needed, would have to wait until next season. So I’m just praying that JC had a plan all along that will satisfy the majority of us.
nightsky- I completely agree, having an overview of the opinion trends that are happening in the fandom couldn’t hurt. I certainly hope it is happening. It would seem like a smart thing to do. To turn a blind eye to the fans OR cater to fans at every turn are two extremes that I would not like to see.
Nightsky
You are absolutely right, the show runner should be concerned about customer opinion. Most brands spend millions on customer satisfaction. I am very sure that SPN are more than aware of fan opinion, it has even been built into canon. Imo I think that the storyline is established far enough in advance for them not to be able to switch and change if one ep doesn’t go down well. Perhaps this is one of the reasons for the filler eps not sure.
What I want to know though is, if they ARE cognisant of fan opinion (which considering the money involved I know they are), then why (says me shaking my fists to the heavens (tks eilf 😀 )) oh why oh WHY did they even BEGIN to imagine in their WILDEST idiotic dreams that fans would buy into Sam not looking for Dean. Carver [i]MUST[/i] have known that this would create dissent amongst the minions. So it is reasonable to assume they did this to create a stir. What makes me sad is that they are prepared to risk breaking the brother bond for a little bit of drama. There is a hundred different ways they could have done that. The only thing that has kept the brothers together, safe and sane is because of the bond. It should be sacrosanct. There should be a HUGE banner in the writers room “DO NOT MESS WITH THE BROTHER BOND!!!!”
end of rant
Ok… I’m good…We can go now (tks Dean 😀 )
[quote]Nightsky
You are absolutely right, the show runner should be concerned about customer opinion. Most brands spend millions on customer satisfaction. I am very sure that SPN are more than aware of fan opinion, it has even been built into canon. Imo I think that the storyline is established far enough in advance for them not to be able to switch and change if one ep doesn’t go down well. Perhaps this is one of the reasons for the filler eps not sure.
What I want to know though is, if they ARE cognisant of fan opinion (which considering the money involved I know they are), then why (says me shaking my fists to the heavens (tks eilf 😀 )) oh why oh WHY did they even BEGIN to imagine in their WILDEST idiotic dreams that fans would buy into Sam not looking for Dean. Carver [i]MUST[/i] have known that this would create dissent amongst the minions. So it is reasonable to assume they did this to create a stir. What makes me sad is that they are prepared to risk breaking the brother bond for a little bit of drama. There is a hundred different ways they could have done that. The only thing that has kept the brothers together, safe and sane is because of the bond. It should be sacrosanct. There should be a HUGE banner in the writers room “DO NOT MESS WITH THE BROTHER BOND!!!!”
end of rant
Ok… I’m good…We can go now (tks Dean 😀 )[/quote]
I find it really funny that so many people this season were upset about the brother bond being messed with, yet in Season 4 they destroyed it down to its last thread before almost doing it again in season 5 , yet these are a lot of people’s favorite seasons. I felt the same way in season 4 that you do about this season. So many other ways they could have gone with Sam’s powers pushing him without completely decimating his character, but that’s what they chose. And like Percyowner, I feel like they’ve never come back from that. I love the show and I’ll probably stick with it until the end, but season’s 4 and 5 will always be a sore spot for me. I’m guessing season 8 will be that for others.
racestaffer
What lovely words of comfort. Lovely way to think about life and its slings and arrows. Helps to know that things do come back if sought, bringing with them new ways to see the world.
thanks
Looking forward to the next ep. Looks good!!
Racestaffer, I agree with Kaz, lovely post(s).
Yes, I agree Agra Priscilla.
Am doing a review of season 4 & 5. Can anyone tell me if there was an answer to who brought Cas back after he exploded in front of Chuck? Also Chuck says that Sam’s eyes were black when he killed Lillith which they were. Has anyone come up with an explanation for this?
Tks
Raphael implied it was Lucifer because he wanted rebellious angels (Free to be you and Me) but Joshua said it was God (Dark Side of the Moon) that brought Cas back. He didn’t say why, though. Supposedly to help the boys. But, IMO, we still don’t know for sure.
Sam’s eyes went black because he was supposed to ‘change’ for good in order to kill Lilith. He didn’t, though. Supposedly, God ‘cleaned’ Sam when he put the boys on the plane. But I wasn’t able to see any change in Sam in the meantime.
Kaz1,
I agree with Ale on the first one, and would add that the first time Cas implies that God brought him back was in Sympathy for the Devil when Zachariah confronted the boys at the storage place. For the record, after Cas died in Swan Song in much a similar manner, he, other angels, and even Crowley all stated in The Man Who Knew Too Much that it was God who brought him back that time too. In my view, it had to have been God, because he would be the only Being powerful enough to resurrect an angel. If it had been an angel who’d done it, I think we’d have known by now.
As for the second, I think his eyes went black simply because he was hopped up on demon blood and more powerful than ever at that point. I don’t think it was because Sam changed though. He had already claimed to have been changed long before his eyes turned black, earlier in Lucifer Rising. Curious to note that his eyes didn’t turn black in Swan Song, though.
Bamboo24, I agree with you on both. I think the changing forever thing was once again that he would continue to make the wrong choice until he went evil. But Sam never went evil, despite his eyes going black. Yes he liked the power, but his motives were always to save the world and the minute he realized what he had done he wanted to stop it. They miscalculated with Sam, instead of just giving in to evil when everything was being offered to him if he did, he just became horrified by what he had done.
I also think we have to remember that Castiel was still getting his information from Zachariah et al. about what was happening to Sam. They wanted Dean to see Sam as irredeemable so that Dean would become Michael’s vessel. So Cas may have been told Sam would change forever and he probably believed it, but that doesn’t mean that Zachariah and the angle bureaucracy weren’t lying to Cas.
On a second thought, I agree with you, Bamboo24. 🙂 Only God could ressurect Cas and Sam’s black eyes is due to the demon blood. I don’t know why, oh, why they had to go there, though!
It’s really good to see the show’s strength continue but it would be great if the creators could address the problem of a lack of female representation in the show. With the departure of characters like Bobby, there was room for more female presence besides just Charlie and yet the show has consistently back-seated any female characters. From season one on, almost any interesting or capable females have either disappeared, been written into ‘girlfriend’ roles, or killed off. Supernatural creators may have a tried and true method for their show, but the show could only benefit from the inclusion of a reoccurring female character that ISN’T just a girlfriend – preferably one that could survive more than a single season! I know the writers can’t bow down to everything fans want, but this seems to be such an obvious and consistent issue.
http://womenontheceiling.tumblr.com/
*this is a response to Sylvie’s post on the Ben Edlund thread*
Hi Sylvie I am also glad to see you suggest some female writers. My response is crazy long and I apologize but and while it is great to see someone putting forward the idea of having Sera Gamble back to write I think it is so sad that you should be afraid that people would be angry at you for suggesting it.
So, since we are writing eulogies to the people who made the show more than just a show about 2 cute guys hunting monsters, and both Ben Edlund (whose episodes I adore) and Eric Kripke (who is responsible for this rollercoaster to begin with) are always going to get their well deserved accolades, I want to write one for Sera Gamble.
Sadly this sort of writing is not my strong suit but I have really felt for her since we heard that she was leaving and Jeremy Carver was taking over. She has just fallen off the planet it seems and it is hard not to feel that all the negative feedback she has received is partly responsible for that. I was just looking at the episodes she wrote and she has been SO instrumental in adding depth to the whole story and much of that seems to have been forgotten in the blame she has received for whatever went wrong with season 7. I feel like she is almost never mentioned and when she is it is in a negative way.
Maybe the season 7 problems were all on her, maybe there is behind the scenes stuff we (I) don’t know about (I joined the fandom end of season 7), maybe the season wasn’t that bad (!), maybe she burned out. I don’t know, I wasn’t there and I don’t know anything about showrunning. I get the impression from various comments that killing off Bobby, (apparently) killing Castiel and losing the car for a lot of the season were her principle offences storywise. But everyone agrees what a great episode Death’s Door is, and Cas is still with us soooo…. Ok be angry if she killed your favorite character, but it is partly due to her that we got them (and learned to love them) at all.
What I have seen from the episodes she wrote and the interviews she did is that she was really, really into the show, into the characters, and that she understood them all, and that she understood what the viewers wanted in the stories she wrote.
These are Sera’s Episodes:
1.03 Dead in the Water
1.12 Faith
1.14 Nightmare
1.21 Salvation
2.03 Bloodlust
2.08 Crossroad Blues
2.17 Heart
2.21 All Hell Breaks Loose: Part One
3.02 The Kids Are Alright
3.07 Fresh Blood
3.10 Dream a Little Dream of Me
3.12 Jus in Bello
3.15 Time Is on My Side
4.02 Are You There, God? It’s Me, Dean Winchester
4.09 I Know What You Did Last Summer
4.17 It’s a Terrible Life
4.21 When the Levee Breaks
5.02 Good God, Y’All
5.07 The Curious Case of Dean Winchester
5.13 The Song Remains the Same
5.21 Two Minutes to Midnight
6.01 Exile on Main St.
6.11 Appointment in Samarra
6.21 Let It Bleed
7.01 Meet the New Boss
7.10 Death’s Door
7.17 The Born-Again Identity
7.23 Survival of the Fittest
Personally (and absolutely I am not attempting to speak for anyone else) I have to say ‘thank you Sera, and if you ever feel like coming back to help us out, it would be much appreciated’
Very nicely said eilf and I agree. I did not care as much for the Sera Gamble seasons personally, but to be fair I also did not place the blame at her feet. I think anyone would have had a hard time following in EK’s footsteps. The story had reached the conclusion of Eric’s vision. Now she had the unenviable task of reinventing and carrying on his legacy. I thought SG was a terrific writer and as you say, no one will probably know what went on behind the scenes, but unfortunately the buck stopped with her. I, as much I would love to see her come back as a writer, do not think it would be considered a good career move to come back as a writer on a show that you were a showrunner on. It is interesting that Bob Singer came out of this unscathed. I wish she had stayed on a head writer and was still there in that capacity. That all being said I would be thrilled to see her return!!!
Nice. Thanks for writing this. Season 7 was not my favorite but there was only 1 episode I really disliked (Time for a Wedding). The problem was more that we lost too much – the car, the music, the brother moments). I guess Sera took the blame for that, but it is still a good season.
Looking at this list, it is nice to remember what a wonderful writer she is. Some of my favorites are on this list and out of 28 episodes, there is only 1 I did not like (The Curious Case of Dean Winchester). That is pretty amazing. Would love it if she came back, but I suspect that once you have been a showrunner on a show, you do not come back as a staff writer.
I should also say I did not hate the episodes by the 2 returning writers. Ben is just so unique, that it is really sad to lose him. And, in season 8 it was Edlund and Carver who wrote the really exceptional episodes, so it is hard to lose him. That being said, the car is back, the music is back (but need more of that classic rock), and the brother moments are back. Yea, Carver! I just hope the reconstituted team for season 9 remembers to keep the brother relationship in the scripts, along with the supernatural meta fun and MOTWs. Eager for season 9!
Sorry this response is all over the place – kind of where my head is right now.
Lovely post, [b]eilf[/b]. I too would absolutely love to see Sera back as a writer on SPN. She wrote some wonderful episodes. I think she really understood the characters and the brotherly relationship and her episodes often got right deep down into their hearts and minds. Nightmare, Salvation, HOTH, Heart, IKWYDLS, WTLB, TSRTS and Fresh Blood are all on my most favourite episodes list.
Reply to Eilf.
Thank you for this.
I came in at the end of season five and I enjoyed every one of these episodes except ‘The Born-Again Identity’ which I didn’t like at all.
But I would say, not liking just one episode is a good positive score for Sera. 🙂
I loved her season six.
I loved Robo-Sam for the time we had him. It was nice to get a glimpse of a bad-ass, emotionless Sam and I enjoyed Dean trying to find a working relationship with him.
Then Robo-Sam was snarky and funny and I liked that.
Although Season seven had some episodes I wasn’t too fond of, overall I enjoy the season fine.
X
She understood the brothers and their brotherly bond and
I would love it if she came back and took over from Carver, but that will never happen, I’m afraid.
So wherever you are Sera, thank you for the pleasure you gave me with your great episodes and good luck with your future career. 🙂
Hi Leah, Gwen, Grace, Isleofskye, thank you for all you said 🙂 it must be really hard to be in the public eye and have people feel that they can say whatever they like about you and even harder when that is negative. Female showrunners, it appears, get even more insulting reactions from the public than the male ones – and that is saying something!
Hopefully Sera will get some of our positive vibes and go back to writing, she is too good to lose completely.
I actually agree I don’t see any way she would go back to writing for SPN having been showrunner (sadly) but I hope whatever she has next is as good !
Mind you, Dan Harmon went back to Community – now THERE is a dysfunctional relationship between showrunner and …. everything else – so if he can do it maybe there is hope yet.
eilf, your post was the first I’ve heard about Dan Harmon. FINALLY, a piece of good news! I thought the show was ok this year but it wasn’t the same. I talked in my Edlund post about relating to these crazy obsessive types, which I know Harmon is-I’ve listened to the commentaries. That’s the type of writer or story editor that SPN right now. Someone who worries when they bring up something and its still not resolved. Or points out the contradictions in logic or the corruption of lore, etc. etc.
No one on the show now has really been there to see the evolution of the characters and the show and I fear it has already suffered for it and with Edlund leaving will continue down that path. I’m afraid the writers that they have left see the characters as almost caricatures of themselves, instead of the extremely complex people they’ve become over the years. Although I do think Jensen and Jared have been able through their performances to smooth out some to the rough patches, but things like Dean consistently been really hard on Kevin are shown over and over with really no explanation or resolution and they can’t really fix that.
eilf, that was a nice reminder of a wonderful writer. I was sorry when she left the writing staff. I thought her first 2 episodes of S7 were terrific, especially Death’s Door-though I still hate that Bobby died. I still love BAI but that coat scene bugs the crap out of me every time I watch it and I don’t like that there wasn’t more resolution to Sam’s storyline. BUT all my problems with season 7 are annoyances and don’t effect my enjoyment of the rest of the show really. (I can’t say the same for this season). I thought people were WAY too hard on her and too easily forgot all she had contributed to the show. And I hate to say it, if I had to rate between her and Carver as showrunners at this moment, she would win. Though he still has more in my top ten episodes. But I still completely love so many of her episodes. It’s a Terrible Life is probably the one of hers I watch the most but I Jus in Bello is fantastic as is When the Levee Breaks and I’ve never appreciated getting a Sam’s POV in IKWYDLS than I did this year. And Bonus she gives good Sam sex scenes!
If we are talking women dream teams, I too would love Cathryn Humphries or even Julie Siege (based almost solely off MatEofB-one of my top 3 episodes). Humphries though wrote a lot of terrific episodes. And I really felt she had a grip on the characters, especially Sam. Which I’m not sure anyone whose left on the show does now, except maybe Carver. And he writes what 2 episodes a year.
As far as the new writers, I didn’t hate the 3 episodes the Charmelo and Snyder did and I thought MHWGO was fun and YCHtT had some great moments. But they are hardly a replacement for BE. Honestly though, I can’t think of anyone who could. But Gamble or Humphries would have brought something of their own to the table. But I doubt Gamble is ever coming back-and I don’t really blame her.