Let’s Discuss: Is It Really A Good Idea To Cure Demons?
I got this great suggestion from Elle for a Let’s Discuss topic:
“While reviewing “Clip Show” and considering the cured demon’s reaction to his crimes, a thought occurred: not all souls in Hell were good people to begin with ergo not every demon is just a formerly good person whose soul was twisted into something ugly. Some of these souls could be truly evil people who ended up in Hell for committing awful crimes during their lives. “Supernatural” has acknowledged these types exist – Dr. Benton and the Benders for example probably don’t have throne rooms in Heaven.
There is an episode of “Angel” with a little boy who is possessed and doing horrible crimes – they exercise him and ultimately the demon is glad to be free of the boy because the boy was so evil. It’s chilling, but not out of the realm of reality. So the question becomes if the norm starts to be to cure demon what’s to say it isn’t just giving an evil person, without a conscience let’s say, a second life to continue on doing (and that doesn’t mean frolicking in fields of daisies) what they were doing before they went to Hell?”
That also got me thinking, what about Crowley in “Sacrifice?” What if he was cured? What sort of being would be walking the earth? Chances are he wasn’t a good soul before he went to Hell. What happens if he ends up roaming the earth as a cured demon? Will he really seek repetance, or unleash Hell on earth?
What do you think of the idea of curing demons in general? Does it bring a fascinating new aspect to the mythology, or is it a half baked notion?
As with other “Let’s Discuss” articles, it is a free form discussion. The rules aren’t as strict. The primary rules are showing respect to others, and no name calling or bashing characters. Sam vs. Dean just isn’t tolerated here.
Okay, with all that out of the way, let’s discuss!
I think its an interesting idea. But one has to ask. What are the parameters of “cured?” Does the demon retain control of the body? Is the host returned to the controls with powers? Does the demon become human [i]all[/i] the way? Is the possessed person sent to heaven? I think this idea is wonderful and they should expand on it in season 9.
Boy, this whole topic has me very conflicted, in an I wish they hadn’t gone there way. First let me say that ever since the writers decided that demons were originally humans tortured into insanity, I have been wanting for the show to find a way to free them that does not involve releasing them into the world. I was and kind of remain a proponent of Sam the demon Messiah, or more accurately a demon Moses who could lead the demons to a more or less uninhabited alternate reality where they weren’t tortured forever. That said, the idea of “curing” demons while in a possessed human body bothers me.
There are many moral issues with the whole idea. Who gets to run the body? The demon who has been cured? The original person? What really complicates this for me is that Jeremy Carver started playing with canon in ways I didn’t like this season. Suddenly, Death, who I can not imagine permitting insubordination in the ranks of Reapers, has rogue Reapers running around, working for Crowley and being killed, not by Death’s scythe and with a ritual as we had been told was the ONLY way to kill them in Death Takes a Holiday. The access between Hell and Purgatory is suddenly amazingly easy just roll a rock and presto chango, there is a secret passage between the two. This after season 6 where Crowley was torturing monsters and working with Castiel because he had NO IDEA how to find Purgatory.
Why does this matter? Because I have NO IDEA what parts of canon will be rewritten next. Currently the demon canon is that they were once human. That demons possess a body and don’t care for the physical safety of the body because they can vacate it at any time. Crowley has had this body for 4 seasons either 4 or 6 years depending on if we count the “offscreen” years between seasons 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 or not. We saw Crowley’s form in Hell, and there was no reason (aside from budgetary concerns) for Crowley to keep the body, except that he kept his body so Crowely’s meat suit has been exposed multiple times to Hell and is not in good shape. The literary agent will probably die quickly if Crowley vacates. But I don’t know if ANY of this continues to be true in Carver’s Supernatural. If it does hold true should the original host be allowed to die? What if the original host has been asleep the entire time and doesn’t want to die? Has the original soul moved on after all this time? Who knows?
So assuming Crowley gets to keep the body, what then. You pointed out that Crowley may not have been a good person in his lifetime. Again, previous canon doesn’t support or refute this. We were told in TMWWBK, that the angels let people into heaven who they believed were morally compromised (Ken Lay was mentioned by name) because they were devout. The truth is we have never seen a demon who we know was condemned to Hell due to “bad behavior”. Their status is either unknown (Meg, Azazel, Azazel’s other children, Ababadon) or are in Hell because of a deal. Some of those deals were selfish (almost everyone in Crossroad Blues, the witches in MM, the husband in Trial and Error and Crowley) Bella’s was an 11 year old girl trying to protect herself and many (Evan, John, Dean, Ellie, even Mary the ) were people trying to save their loved ones lives. Even Margo in Trial and Error made her deal because she thought it would make her family happy. None of these people are shown to have done anything bad enough to “deserve” Hell. Were they petty and greedy? Sure. Did they make a bad deal? Yes. Did they know what they were doing? Sometimes yes, but Bella was a child, to young to consent to any contract IRL and quite possibly did not even believe the deal was real. The witches in MM thought they were playing around and had no idea that they were REALLY selling their souls. I honestly am not convinced that ANY soul sentenced to Hell did anything that I would consider worthy of Hell.
And then there is the big question. What happens to the demon souls that are cured? Do the souls still belong to Hell? Can Heaven, or at east crazy cakes Metatron refuse to admit them into Heaven after they are cured? Could Naomi or Zachariah or Michael have refused them admittance? If Crowley is cured, and he releases the body he has been using, will his soul be sent back to Hell to be tortured and corrupted again?
Frankly, the metaphysical ramifications of all this are deep and require a lot of thought. Unfortunately, my impression is that the writers looked at each other and said “wouldn’t it be neat if they could cure a demon and what if that demon is Crowley?” and never went any farther than that. To me this is a very messy situation and I’m ready to throw up my hands and say I don’t care. Because really, I can’t see this being handled with the thought that I need to make it work.
[quote] What really complicates this for me is that Jeremy Carver started playing with canon in ways I didn’t like this season. Suddenly, Death, who I can not imagine permitting insubordination in the ranks of Reapers, has rogue Reapers running around, working for Crowley and being killed, not by Death’s scythe and with a ritual as we had been told was the ONLY way to kill them in Death Takes a Holiday. [/quote]
I think Death cares less about the destination of a soul, than that the soul gets reaped. I mean if cared so much he would have pulled Adam out Lucifer’s Cage, but he made Dean choose who to take out of their, Adam certainly doesn’t deserve to be locked in their. And as Balthazar said after the Apocalypse was averted, “There are no more rules.”
And It was never explicitly stated that a Reaper couldn’t be killed or that it had to be a ritual. That was just one of the 66 Seals “kill death twice,” which is why it was a ritual murder, with incantations and the moon being in the right position. Why did Alastair use Death’s scythe? Well, why not?
[quote]The access between Hell and Purgatory is suddenly amazingly easy just roll a rock and presto chango, there is a secret passage between the two. This after season 6 where Crowley was torturing monsters and working with Castiel because he had NO IDEA how to find Purgatory.[/quote]
Well, it makes sense that a Reaper would no where Purgatory is, given that it is their job to take souls to their final destinations. As for why they didn’t touch upon Reapers in season six, you’d have to take that up with Kripke and Gamble. The only answer I have is fanwank; simply that certain Reapers hadn’t gone rogue yet.
Reply to Percysowner.
X
Very good post. I think the writers have written themselves into a corner this season.
They have thrown stuff in without building it up gradually or giving it due considereration, but just doing it for the wow factor.
X
Once there was a Hell and a Heaven. The good guys went to Heaven and the bad guys to Hell.
There are obviously different degrees of good and evil. The crossroads deals , as you mention are often made by people who don’t realise what they are getting into, like Bela who was only a child at the time being preyed on by her father; did she really deserve Hell? IMO she didn’t!
In ‘In The Beginning’, there was a boy whom young Mary and Dean were questioning who had made a deal without any idea of what he had done.
X
Same with Heaven.
I suppose theer are souls who get in by the skin of their teeth and others who are ‘saints’.
X
To me closing the Gates of Hell was a silly idea in the first place especially when it never happened, making the whole of season eight a waste of time.
X
As for vessels/ bodies; How does that work. Crowley isn’t in his own body, he’s in someone elses. What about that person’s soul? Would it come back into its own body when cured?
The same thing for Castiel. He is in Jimmy’s body If Jimmy is still alive then his soul is still present and if he is dead, does that mean that Castiel now has a soul of his own?
What a mix-up.
X
I’m sorry to say that the writing on every level for me has been grossly incompetent this whole season, and has only posed a pile of complicated questions instead of giving us answers.
The writers throw in stuff whenever they need to, to validate their episodes, usually with no co-ordination between them.
X
I’m really sad for what they have done to SPN this year.
I on’t know if not closing the gates of hell renders the season a waste of time. There’s a three year, and this was the end of the first act.
To say it was a waste is kinda like saying season 3 was a waste because Sam didn’t get Dean out of his contract, I mean they rarely complete their goals for the season. You could say 2, 5, and 7; but those finales also led to unintended consequences for the characters.
The writing this season has been fine, I don’t see how it leaving questions hanging is incompetent. The soul/vessel stuff has already established on the show, yes Castiel is now stuck in Jimmy’s body, what happened to Jimmy’s soul? Well they didn’t even bother answering that in season 5, maybe season 9 will.
What happens with a cured demon? That’s the million dollar question, and can only assume they will answer that next season.
reply to Mikael
X
The goal for the season was to close the Gates of Hell. They didn’t, and believe me I’m glad, for it was just silly to try.
Hell needs to be there to contrast heaven .
X
Then the Benny arc went nowhere. It just fizzled out. The boring Amelia arc went nowhere either.
So the first eleven episodes of the season had no utility whatsoever.
X
The interesting MOL arc was introduced and it went nowhere either, except to house the boys.
X
There is no comparison to season three at all. It was a wonderful season and could not express itself entirely because of the writer’s strike.
Season six achieved its goal perfectly as Castiel carelessly opened Purgatory and did his God impression.
X
In season five Castiel was still an angel and the problem didn’t exist as angels have no souls. Now he has miraculously lost his grace and is human, so things have changed. Can two souls co-exist. Does Castiel now have a soul?
X
As for curing demons.
I can’t imagine injecting human blood into a demon would make him human, just as injecting cat blood into a human would make him a cat, so that is just plain silly to me, apart from the philosophical soul aspect.
X
As I said the writers have opened a boxful of questions this season and I don’t know if they will be able to answer them all satisfactorily next year.
I have no trust in these writers at all.
I must say that the issues you mentioned I had not even thought of, besides what exactly happens to the demon after they are cured.
My concern is of a practical nature. 8 hours to cure one demon is a looooong time. This presents a similar moral dilemma to the one in season 4, when Sam could exorcise demons with his mind instead of killing them, along with the victim, with Ruby’s knife. Morally it makes sense to cure the demon because, honestly, even if the demon doesn’t leave the victim’s body, they’re still better off than before cos at least now the demon won’t be killing and/or eating people. BUT it takes 8 freaking hours to cure just one. That’s not practical at all. Unless the Winchesters find a way to speed up the process, this isn’t going to end up being a very helpful revelation because it simply can’t be used frequently. Most of the time the guys don’t even bother catching demons to read the exorcism to them, they just use the knife on them because it’s quickest and easiest. Let’s think about situations like Jus In Bello. No way they’d try and cure all those demons. So I agree with all the problems listed above but moreover, are they even relevant because will curing be a helpful alternative to the knife in the future?
Also, have to agree with the person who said about the rogue reaper thing. I found that really confusing and I’d like a cool explanation, like maybe Death has gone to the Bahamas or something (a real holiday this time, haha) »» i.e. Death coming back (man, I really miss that guy). This reversal that’s been happening this season can’t be blamed on Carver only though. Remember when Uriel said that the ONLY thing that could kill an angel was another ANGEL? Yip, that didn’t turn out to be so true. And then of course this season it was revealed that the angel blade pretty much kills almost anything (which I find very annoying)!
So yeah. Confusing things going on. Ultimately, though, I found the whole curing thing pretty cool because it was unexpected and not totally out of the realm of possibility. And of course it’s always awesome when the myth on the show expands. As long this is continued with well in Season 9, I think it could be great!
Wow… interesting philosophical question. Breaking it down to the simplest terms, even in the SPN universe, good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. There are exceptions; Crowley putting Bobby’s soul in hell but even that’s a little iffy because Bobby did kill his father. Now granted, Bobby’s father was a drunken A-hole but still…
In SPN canon, a demon is a human soul that has been tortured and twisted over time. What happens to the soul/essence of the person they are possessing? In the case of the demon that the priest cured, the demon was contrite and remorseful for his actions. Is this contrition sufficient for redemption?
I’m all for redemption but, given that we don’t know what happens to the person the demon is possessing, and keeping in mind that the person’s soul went to hell for a reason, it’s an interesting concept but I need to know more about it. Given what we know now, it’s not a good idea – just send the demon back to hell.
Great idea, Alice! Food for thought. I’ve never written a response this lengthy, so skip to the next one if you’d like.
Quote from [b]Alice[/b]:
[quote]”While reviewing “Clip Show” and considering the cured demon’s reaction to his crimes, a thought occurred: not all souls in Hell were good people to begin with ergo not every demon is just a formerly good person whose soul was twisted into something ugly. Some of these souls could be truly evil people who ended up in Hell for committing awful crimes during their lives. “Supernatural” has acknowledged these types exist – Dr. Benton and the Benders for example probably don’t have throne rooms in Heaven.[/quote]
My first thought about curing demons was your #1 point – some of those former occupants of hell deserved to be there, and if this was our reality we would want them to stay there.
My second thought was what [b]Ryan [/b] was thinking:
[quote]What are the parameters of “cured?” Does the demon retain control of the body? Is the host returned to the controls with powers? Does the demon become human all the way? Is the possessed person sent to heaven? [/quote]
Additional question: What if the meatsuit was so old and damaged the original occupant was unable to return?
The disposition of all of these souls and sometimes actual people is getting to be unwieldy. What if: (and I don’t necessarily think this is a good idea)
1. The soul of the undamaged or young meatsuit goes back into his/her own body.
2. The soul of a damaged body is sent where it would have gone where it deserved to go before being possessed.
3. The soul of a demon that went to hell for being a horrible person while on earth goes back to hell.
4. The soul of a person that went to hell to save someone else or made a deal before the age of consent goes to heaven.
A few of [b]Percysowners [/b] issues in her first couple of paragraphs have mildly potential solutions in the four options above.
Quote / Question from [b]Alice[/b]:
[quote]That also got me thinking, what about Crowley in “Sacrifice?” What if he was cured? What sort of being would be walking the earth? Chances are he wasn’t a good soul before he went to Hell. What happens if he ends up roaming the earth as a cured demon? Will he really seek repetance, or unleash Hell on earth?[/quote]
This theory could possibly apply to Crowley as well. Maybe?
Quote from [b]Percy[/b]:
[quote]What really complicates this for me is that Jeremy Carver started playing with canon in ways I didn’t like this season. Suddenly, Death, who I can not imagine permitting insubordination in the ranks of Reapers, has rogue Reapers running around, working for Crowley and being killed, not by Death’s scythe and with a ritual as we had been told was the ONLY way to kill them in Death Takes a Holiday. The access between Hell and Purgatory is suddenly amazingly easy just roll a rock and presto chango, there is a secret passage between the two. This after season 6 where Crowley was torturing monsters and working with Castiel because he had NO IDEA how to find Purgatory. [/quote]
So interesting, Percy. I love it!
I agree with you that Death IS the most powerful being of whom we know. (Well, we do know Jesse.) So, if Death exposed rogue reapers at that time in the story, allowing them to work for Crowley, it was for his own reasons, and not to play with canon. If more of SPN’s reality is not exposed a little at a time, the story would be static – no show. This also can explain the rock and hole access to Purgatory. Someone (Death? God?) did not want the portal to be easy to find until AFTER the Leviathan were let out.
If I am not mistaken, the ritual that Alistair used to kill the Reapers in Death Takes a Holiday was not the only way to kill a Reaper, it was to break a seal.
Quote from [b]Lindsay[/b]:
[quote]My concern is of a practical nature. 8 hours to cure one demon is a looooong time.[/quote]
😛 True that!
[quote]Also, have to agree with the person who said about the rogue reaper thing. I found that really confusing and I’d like a cool explanation, like maybe Death has gone to the Bahamas or something (a real holiday this time, haha)[/quote]
You are truly funny and original! Now that you mention it, maybe he went off planet. Earth is just a speck.
Wow, interesting! But unfortunately (or fortunately) there are too many topics involved. It takes I don’t know what kind of brains (Sam’s?) to untangle this knot.
1. Third trial seems to contradict the main deal – closing the Gates. If it’s possible to cure demons why to lock them away forever? As Persysowner put it, almost any suffering soul in hell is not so guilty, or downright innocent. It makes the closing deed even more cruel, so why would God want it to be done?
2. When Crowley tried to sell his soul in What’sUpTiger Mommy, Plutos made a laugh of him saying,”You have no soul”. How could Crowley have been cured?
3. Most important and intriguing – if Crowley was sincerely repenting and asking where to start to look for forgiveness – WHO was he going to ask? Crowley still believes that there somebody watching him from above? Or he just desperately wants to be good again? It’s amazing that moral imperative stays so strong in SPNworld!
More and more questions, when one tries to answer one – there are three more appearing. And I don’t think that old Canon can possibly give any resolutions, so I’m afraid further Canon modification is inevitable. SPNuniverse is expanding, almost like a real one, so new facts need explaining. I think it’s okay, no?
Novi
Wow! No. 2 is interesting. What is of concern (if what Pluto said about Crowley’s soul was intended to be taken literally) is that this is [i]within[/i] [i]season[/i] canon bashing. If Crowley “had no soul” in episode 2, SURELY this info is easily held onto until ep 23. It is the same season for goodness sake. I have no idea how the writers work, but dear goodness, please tell me they are obligated to follow canon within season at least.
I was thinking about this too. I was wondering if demons were just soulless humans, who upon losing faith and/or hope in hell became separated from their soul. Perhaps the “cure” is actually returning them to their soul (or their soul to them). Still raises the question what happens to the soul of the body they’re in, if it is alive at all. Oh, now my head hurts.
Thisoldbag, I like your idea, it explains Crowley’s soul problem and opens lots of possibilities, for example, they can have a storehouse for separated souls in hell, Voldemort-like, maybe.
Actually, not only Crowley supposedly doesn’t have a soul. Castiel doesn’t have one either – he told it to Crowley back in S6, and now he is deprived of his grace either. But he still has his personality, just like Soulless!Sam had. The question is what was it that Sam lost if he kept his memory and his identity? The same little sparkle of good that every human (Crowley included) has, but when one gets transformed into a demon he then gets robbed of it. I can’t turn my thoughts into words properly, sorry, but I see how your idea can be useful for sorting out this problem. It can even be tied up with Canon!
WAIT!!! If the definition of a demon is a soulless human, and Soulless!Sam was a soulless human, doesn’t that mean he was in actual fact a demon??
Besides, I thought demons were tortured souls. That was always the definition, wasn’t it? Maybe Pluto was exagerrating. Crowley’s soul is now demonic, so effectively worthless, as it’s been stripped of all it’s goodness/humanity (which is the part of the soul that Sam was clearly missing when he was soulless), that it’s not worth even calling a soul. If Crowley in fact had no soul at all, he wouldn’t have bid it in the first place, because he’d know that he couldn’t have acquired the tablet without first making payment. So he has a soul, but it’s so twisted and stripped of humanity that it’s worthless, and like having no soul at all.
Demons are twisted and corrupt souls….Pluto said Crowley has no soul…Maybe, Crowley IS a twisted soul…Someone else’s meat suit….but he IS a soul therefore he can’t give it up…Follow me?
I have been mulling this over for awhile now and am still confused. Who drives the bus after the cure? It appears the “cured” demon does. It is still a possession then, right? Not good for the original human either way. If the cured demon exited the meatsuit letting the human regain control, it might have some positives, assuming the body is still viable and undamaged. And where would a cured demon go, back to hell? It is still a demon, right, just
cured of evil impulses. Or is it not a demon anymore? Oh see, this is just too murky. I am for just exorcising the demon, so the original human (meatsuit owner) can have a chance at a life again, the heck with rehabilitating the
demon. If the pre demon human soul was evil before turning it could revert back and hijack the current meatsuit for nefarious purposes. Or the best case I guess would be if the pre demon was an innocent but it is stuck in the current body. Back to possession. Yeesh.
Thanks Alice for the thinky’s. Still confused though 🙂
Actually we have never seen a demon “cured”. We HEARD the results of the original pries “curing” the demon, but we never saw the cure and it is debatable if it worked or not. We also never saw a long term aftermath of the priest’s cure, so who knows what happened afterward. Sam may or may not have cured Crowley in the last episode. It wasn’t clear. Thus far we have no frame of reference as to what happens after a demon is cured, or if the technique even works.
For all we know after the Preist shut off the tape recorder the demon pulled a ‘gotcha’. Or maybe it played the cured card to gain access to the MOL lair….isn’t that where the original curing was done?
Could the cured demon be a double agent? A plant? KNowing it would go through a ‘curing’, fake the curing so it could be trusted enough to wander the MOL looking for something specific?
How much time has passed beetween the demon being ‘cured’ to when Abaddon infiltrated the MOL and killed all the MOL? Weeks? Why did Abaddon pick the time she did to possess a MOL member and infiltrate the Bunker?
How long was Abaddon pretending to be the original MOL member before killing everyone? Didn’t she kill everyone on the womans final initiation night when all secrets would be revealed to her and eventually Henry Winchester?
Maybe a cured demon can get into Heaven, I mean the soul gets purified, one would assume of all sins and wrong doing.
And hopefully they’ll answer some of these metaphysical questions next season. They got a 3 year plan, and this is just the end of Act 1. You got to leave some things hanging.