Let’s Discuss: What Are Your Expectations for Season 9 Dean Winchester?

112 Comments

1. Purgatory had a lot of promise to start. I do buy that being in that 24/7 combat situation allowed Dean to refocus–not as a fix to his issues but it did turn things in another direction (transmuting his issues, not removing them). SPN used Purgatory in a purification sense, and we saw Dean being very direct about his feelings and wants and more focused than he’s been in a while. He had to be, in order to survive, and the life-or-death atmosphere of Purgatory was removed from the trappings of life topside. I think the effects of this was carried post-Purgatory and impacted how Dean deal with Sam, with Castiel, and others. Despite the strife between the brothers in the first half, there was a lot more honesty and directness as well.

   My issue is that even before the back half of the season, the other effects of Purgatory–the PTSD, the hyper-vigilance Dean displayed, his difficulty adjusting to life topside again–evaporated. So while I don’t think the story lacked in personal character development or believability, ultimately it did start to look like a quick fix to keep the story moving. This is a problem especially in light of the fact of Dean’s depression and drinking in S7 which also went nowhere and wasn’t addressed–oh oops Purgatory took care of that.

   In terms of Dean overall in S8, in fact I was really happy with the personal character development arc. S8 had a lot about Dean’s identity as an individual, explored via the MoL, which offered him a (relatively) stable and safe space to express himself. We also had his evolving views on the nature of non-humans and how important found family is in addition to his strong bond with Sam. So while I don’t think that Dean was neglected or shoved aside or had no arc at all for his own right, in the back half the momentum of his story went away.

   I love the Sam and Dean relationship and was very happy with the increased emotional honestly between the brothers and that they became closer again despite the initial conflict. But it’s also frustrating to have a repeat of problems in earlier seasons. Dean looks on and reacts as his loved ones have crisis and strong mytharc plots. He did take some active role in both Castiel and Sam’s stories…but ultimately, where was Dean’s for his own right? This is what frustrates many Dean fans. Is Dean’s main/primary purpose on the show really to be caretaker and big brother (not just for Sam but others too)? Is he Sam’s spear-bearer in particular, with no plot of his own? This while the impact of being the caretaker for so long, his history and issues stemming from the time he was 4 years old, simmer under the surface, they are part of what inform the character, and the show keeps making motions towards addressing it and then it goes nowhere. Don’t get me wrong, I love Dean’s caring for family, that’s a big part of who he is, but I feel like he’s being shut into one role.

   S8 Dean is an odd situation for me because I actually really really adored S8 Dean and a lot of what the show did, and yet I have many concerns as well.

   Reply

   1. I agree so hard with this.

      I started out enthusiastic for the Purgatory storyline and what seemed like a genuine intent to explore Dean’s trauma for a change. I also loved Dean’s new openness when it came to expressing himself, be it his issues or his love/need for Cas (and even outside of a shippy read of the Dean-Cas bond, it’s been made clear that Dean cares very deeply for Cas and vice versa). Moreover I had hope – even after the trials went to Sam (and I’m not disputing there were narrative reasons why that was done) – that Dean might have some deeper connection to the angel tablet. I’ve been left feeling pretty disappointed on the storyline score, and hugely disappointed at the progression away from a degree of independence back to Dean being all about Sam, with all the intensely creepy and triggering incestuous vibes that entails.

      I’ve gone from being a dedicated Deangal to having little interest in his role in the overall mytharc (albeit that Jensen still brings so much to the show). What’s the point, since he never actually has a role that doesn’t get retconned out of existence or regifted elsewhere. He is never used differently, and after eight seasons of him being the wind beneath Sam’s wings, I suspect he never will be used differently. As I’ve often said, being an awesome big brother isn’t a storyline – it’s a character trait, and one we were already aware of. I want more, but I suspect S9 will be yet another season of something’s wrong with Sam, oh no, Dean must wring his hands over it. Sorry: bored now.

      Reply

2. Thank you for the read, Alice!
   Expectations? I dunno. We all wish the best for Dean, and these additions to his life and character you counted would be interesting, but with all these improvements would it still be Dean? Flawed, childish, guilt-ridden, the Dean we’ve known for eight happy years now. Would it be possible at all to combine all good things you want to see in him and yet leave his core as a character intact? This is a task for a great writer, a real challenge which I’m afraid very few could even try to meet. Hovewer, the arc for Dean sounds really promising. Only that would mean that Dean and Sam would spend a lot of time separately. And I absolutely agree that Cas needs to develop some relations besides Dean. Now as he is mortal and so vulnerable be may need help and protection from his friend, though. So this is a problem. I only hope that in his current human form Cas will manage to accumulate a certain amount of manly pride and will stop looking at Dean with these imploring dovey eyes of his!:-)

   Reply

3. My wishlist for Dean in S9

   -A mytharc storyline. Whatever, a storyline where Dean is important because of who he is, not what he can do for other characters. Stipulation: the storyline needs to run the entire length of the season and not be unceremoniously dropped, a la purgatory. Supporting Castiel and Sam in their storylines is fine. But Dean deserves to have a storyline that’s about himself as well, and I really don’t mean another emotional “Dean questions what it means to be a brother/a hunter/a MoL/a person with cat allergies” storyline. A little less talk and a lot more action, so to speak.

   -Character development, not regression. Dean came out of purgatory magically cured of all of his depression, which I was fine with. That arc had clung to Dean for 2+ years and it was clear that show had no idea how to deal with it, so better to just drop it. Instead, Dean came out with hyper-vigilance and honed hunting skills, PSTD, and a more direct, honest way of communicating his needs and wants (if I can borrow from Dot). By the second half, a good portion of all of this was gone. The depression/worthlessness angle reappeared again when show needed to kick Dean away from direct involvement in the mytharc in the second half, and then disappeared again. Kripke stated that Dean’s purpose in S1-5 was to let go of Sam and help him while he saved the world. I was never crazy about that, but fair enough. The second half took caring Dean back to S1 levels, and the finale had him pretty much throwing away Kripke’s character development. These are all examples of regression in S8. So in S9, I’d like to see Dean regain some equilibrium here. Yes, he should still care for Sam, but Sam made it pretty clear that he didn’t appreciate Dean’s attempts to take care of him once the trials started and that he didn’t need or want Dean’s help during the trials. Therefore, Dean needs to regain some of that first half S8 drive, where he’s able to focus on his own goals and needs, while also being a big brother. It really shouldn’t be one or the other.

   -Self-esteem issues to be at least improved. I saw where that was a request from last season, and that didn’t turn out that well, at least in my opinion. By the end of the season, Dean was still defining his worth by what he could do for Sam and Castiel, rather than finding it within himself. Even if Sam’s speech in 8.14 had worked out, it would still be Dean gaining from others’ accomplishments, rather than finding value in his own. Dean needs to be allowed to see the value in what he does, as well as his value to others because of who he is, not what he can do for them. My fear is that we’re going to start the season with human!Castiel and sick!Sam. Both put Dean back in his rut—people need me, and I can help them, therefore I am valuable and they will want me. I think that’s the problem with care-taker!Dean as Dean’s only role—it feeds into the issues show already labeled as bad and glorifies them instead. Dean needs to break away from seeing that as his whole worth, and that seemed to be his mindset once the trials popped up. Despite his renewed love of hunting, I don’t think show has really shown him believing again that what Sam and he do on a daily basis is valuable (actually, I’d include Sam in that as well), and I’d really like for them to. I read a meta (sadly I cannot credit the author, whose name escapes me) that said Sam seems to operate with “Do you love me still?” in his heart, while Dean operates with “Do you love me now?” While the finale addressed the former, Dean’s self-esteem is still so tied in others wanting him around I really can’t say the latter has been addressed. Which leads me to:

   Reply

   1. -Dean and Sam. Show did its best to break Sam and Dean in the first half of the season, and I don’t think they fixed that so much as they shoved it under the rug where they didn’t have to look at it in the second half, until the finale rolled around and they needed those pieces to make a dramatic ending. Which makes the finale a good starting point, not a finish line. Dean and Sam haven’t fixed the big brother/little brother cycle—Sam does something he’s afraid will hurt Dean so he lies, Dean catches Sam lying so he doesn’t trust Sam, Sam chafes at Dean not trusting him so he doesn’t tell him the truth, etc, etc. They did better giving speeches and telling each other where they were emotionally at times, but they’re still woefully short on discussion and neither still seems to be aware of what the other’s real issues are (Dean’s feelings of being unwanted, Sam’s feelings re: being trusted, for example). No, they’ll never fix all of their brother issues, and I doubt anyone really wants them to do so completely. But my problem with them remains that we’re still confronting the same issues as in S1, and this season was particularly regressive. Show can and should find new problems between the boys, or at least new ways to present the old problems. Caring for each other and looking out for each other is important and I don’t want to lose that, but they need to get off the hamster wheel of dysfunction, too.

      -Dean and hunting. I want Dean to recover his edge from purgatory and be allowed to be a great hunter who finds purpose in what he does. Show pays lip service to this sometimes, but you can’t declare Dean a genius at lore and have him not know what a familiar is the next episode. This affects Sam, too, so let me say that what I really want is for show to keep Dean and Sam as hunters consistent, rather than ratcheting their skills up or down to fit the plot they want to write. I do feel like Dean gets the worst side of this, especially when show forgets his skill/knowledge for the sake of comic relief, but I don’t want them to use any character this way. If Dean is a great hunter/leader, let’s make that consistent, not based on what the script says this episode.

      So that’s my list—season-long storyline complete with resolution, character development, self-esteem improvement, Sam/Dean relationship fix that actually fixes issues without unnatural conflict, and character-driven writing rather than characters hammered into plots regardless of consistency. That doesn’t seem like too much, does it? (Sam, of course, deserves all of this as well).

      Reply

4. I have no expectations for Dean Winchester in S9. While S8 Part 1 did introduce a real possibility that there would be some follow-through on Dean sub-plots previously brought up and dropped, S8, Part II, inexplicably and with no logic whatsoever, dropped those or handed them off to other characters, while giving Dean an apron and stripping him of all character growth made upon his return from Purgatory.

   I think Carver has made it entirely clear what his idea of Dean Winchester is, and I happen to not share that idea. Dean was the ONLY character who was not set up with a storyline for S9, other than to take care of a LimpSam and continue in his mentoring role to support characters.

   There is one thing I would WISH for in S9, as far-fetched as it is, and that is that Carver would ditch the apron and return Dean to being a hunter. I no longer want Dean to have a story or be part of the mytharc. Sam can continue with those, and be given the mentoring others role and have all the interactions with the support characters…Cas, Crowley, Kevin, Garth, Charlie, Krissy, Tom, Dick, and Jane.

   If Carver would just let Dean be a hunter again…have him show up, kick some butt, spill some blood, and drive off in the Impala, I would find the show tolerable enough to watch, despite the inferior writing, showrunning, and pacing.

   Reply

5. By in large I really liked Dean this season. The badass hunter was front and center but so was loving, concerned big brother. I do have problems with Dean’s characterization in S8, but most are issues that are done and dusted so can’t really be corrected for the next season. But by far my biggest problem with Dean’s behavior this season is his treatment of Kevin. At the same time, he was paranoid that Sam would get a bruise he was pushing Kevin more and more, despite all the signs the kid was breaking. Kevin is just a couple years older than Kristi but he was his normal protective self to her and her friends. His advice to Kevin always seem to be “suck it up”. That seems very un-Dean-like to me. I hope that changes next year.

   Enjoying his character for the most part this season does mean I don’t think there is lots of room for character growth. I really hope they continue with the confrontation that started in Sacrifice and that there be last growth from it. Also that they deal with Dean’s abandonment and self-worth issues.

   And both brothers still need to work on their communication skills.

   Other hopes.That I’m with those a little disappointed that Dean didn’t have a direct connection to the trials, especially the Angel tablet. But given the way the story played out I can see why they did that. But I do hope next year he is more connected to the MOL’s, or whatever.

   I ADORE Dean in his caretaker role, but honestly I would be over the moon to see the situations reversed. To see Sam actively taking care of Dean, not that he doesn’t but the last few seasons Sam’s been in rough shape. So he hasn’t been up for a lot of caretaking, (And it looks like he may be again next but if not…) so it would be great to see a version of S2 or 3 Sam. And have Dean be the one in need.

   Reply

6. I’m not really able to separate what I want for Dean from what I want for Sam. But this is what I would like to see:

   – I want Dean to be proud of both himself and his brother. I never bought into him being a genius at lore, but he sure can come up with brilliant plans at short notice (when the writers don’t use plot-enforced stupidity anyway) such as in Jus In Bello. No way he’s a “grunt”. He’d make a fine general.

   – I want Sam to start rebuilding the Men of Letters Society in the background (it wouldn’t be very exciting on screen and I want to see the brothers kick ass). Finally he can continue the family business in a way that is more consistent with his scholarly nature. Kevin & Charlie would be a great help here, and it would give Sam a chance to build up relationships with new characters too. And if Sam is happier and more stable, he can be mother-hen to Dean for a change. I think it would be funny to see how Dean handles THAT 😀

   – I want Dean and Sam to both realise they are equals but with different strengths and abilities. I want Sam to let go of his feelings of not living up to his family’s standards, given that he simply isn’t as well-suited to Campbell-style hunting as Dean. No wonder he went off the deep end. I would too if my brother tried to drag me into tax accountancy .

   – I want to find out more about Dean’s relationship with angels. His turn for the mytharc I think. Maybe his angelic connection will allow him to gather and lead the fallen angels?

   In summary I want to retire the forced and over-used brotherly conflict, depressed Dean and endless “something is wrong with Sam” mytharcs. I want the writers to allow both characters to grow up and develop in NEW ways.

   Most of all though I just want the writers to talk to one another and develop the seasons as a whole together. Most of the episodes in seasons 6-8 have felt completely disconnected with no thought for the overarching plot.

   Reply

7. I have expectations and hopes but they are completely different for season 9. I admit we are at a crossroads with the finale but that means two ways we can go and with the last few seasons hope for one expect the other then you won’t be disappointed.

   So I hope for:

   Dean to actually become invested in the MoL and have an obvious part too it like Sam outside his room. Also when saying he is a legacy like Sam getting looked at like he is an idiot. Just because he isn’t as big a researcher doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a real place. Carver had them right in that he was a genius with lore – show us that there was a point to that outside bigging him up when plot demands then making him an idiot two seconds later.

   I hope that he gets to be proactive in the storyline rather than being a caretaker and backup for everyone else. If I want to watch season 1 and 2 Dean in caretaker and how Sam is his world – I have season 1 and 2 already.

   I hope that he and Sam can come to an actual understanding instead of delivering speeches that in the end really resolve little of their problems in a practical matter because as much as the speeches were raw and gave an emotional outlet they do little about giving us a blue print of how the boys are going to work practically on a day to day basis that is healthy for both of them because it is getting to a point where we are one step away from one only being happy when the other is miserable.

   My expectations though are completely different.

   I expect Dean caretaking both Sam and Cas while he deals with cured Crowley in the basement. Sam complaining that Dean is motherhenning him too much when he should be trying to deal with Metatron. I don’t have faith that Sam’s breakdown will actually do anything practically seeing how there was so much forced conflict this season. I want Sam to drop the guilt and the defensiveness and placing some of that on Dean because without that Dean won’t drop he has to take care of Sam the way he does while internalizing what is bugging him. If Dean was expected to drop the grudges then Sam should be told to drop the guilt complex because really those two things feed each other for both of them.

   I expect Dean becoming the blunt tool for the MoL while mentoring others who will sit round a table rather than be seen as being an integral part of it.

   I expect more canon to go out the window

   Reply

8. Well, I had hoped that they would be special again. Boy did I get what I wanted with the Men of Letters story line. Once that happened, the entire story opened up and the possibilities were endless. I was very pleased that by the end of season 8 Dean had said several things that showed he was embracing the MoL. He called it their home, and in the finale he said something to Sam about them having all this knowledge.

   So for season 9 I’d like them to continue the MoL and I would like to see Dean really see himself as one of them. Sure he’s the hunter and the brawn, but I want him to be shown as smart also. There were moments in Season 8 where he was shown to be researching and finding answers, but then another writer might have him know nothing about a witches’ familar. So I also want the writing staff to get their characterization together so it isn’t like a yo-yo.

   So, Dean seeing himself as a MoL
   Dean being smart.
   More Dean with Charlie!
   Dean being more compassionate to Kevin Tran.(Kevin’s suppose to be young and Dean has always had a soft spot for kids, I’d have expected him to be a bit more parental with Kevin).

   Reply

9. [quote]it’s also frustrating to have a repeat of problems in earlier seasons. Dean looks on and reacts as his loved ones have crisis and strong mytharc plots. He did take some active role in both Castiel and Sam’s stories…but ultimately, where was Dean’s for his own right? This is what frustrates many Dean fans. Is Dean’s main/primary purpose on the show really to be caretaker and big brother (not just for Sam but others too)? Is he Sam’s spear-bearer in particular, with no plot of his own? This while the impact of being the caretaker for so long, his history and issues stemming from the time he was 4 years old, simmer under the surface, they are part of what inform the character, and the show keeps making motions towards addressing it and then it goes nowhere. Don’t get me wrong, I love Dean’s caring for family, that’s a big part of who he is, but I feel like he’s being shut into one role. [/quote]
   Very much this, and I massively side eye anyone who makes claims that they are a fan of Dean Winchester and then in the same breath declare that this is how they’d like to see Dean..supporting Sam and NOT DOING VERY MUCH ELSE. That, in my opinion, is not very supportive towards a great character, who should exist within the story in his right.

   There are so many places the writers could go with Dean, and this goes far beyond how he feels about others. For example, Dean and his connection with the Angels as the Righteous Man, as the Michael Sword, also his time in Hell and now his time in Purgatory…and how this affected HIM – the one who connected with a monster and went native, the one who as a human surrounded by monsters became the unique one…how Dean always manages to assimilate with his surroundings and/or ends up joining in and what that reveals about Dean and how that makes him feel (ie – Dean and Alistair). I’d like to see a return of this kind of focus on Dean, as we saw in seasons 4 and parts of season 5 (and a couple of episodes in season 8…whoopdiedoo!) because as long as the writers refuse to go there, then they are wasting a huge amount of potential. Season 9 could be a perfect opportunity to bring back Dean’s connection with the angels, as The Michael Sword, but I now have no hope for season 9, and the rest of this show beyond to be honest, especially if they continue down the road that the latter half of season 8 took. Acting as Sam’s caretaker and nothing much else seems to be his only role now, since it seems that character regression is the rule in the writers room, and I am not interested in that. What I want to see is a show where Dean is treated equally, where he has his own role (ie the one actively involved in the story, the one chosen to do a task, a hero who has his OWN journey) in whatever story they come up with. I want Dean to have narrative importance, and have him proactive – not reactive. Infact, it would be a nice change for other characters – be it Sam, Cas or new supporting characters – to be reactive to whatever is going on with Dean…and whatever IS going on with Dean, I would like to be treated with respect by the writers, given more than one or two episodes and the odd passing reference. I want whatever it is going on with Dean to be of narrative importance. So much so that it drives the plot, and has us tuning in and wanting to know what happens next and wondering – where is this going? I want it to be so important – that the producers actually consider it worthy of discussion when being interviewed. In fact remembering that Dean exists when being interviewed would be a good start. Is that too much to ask?

   Reply

   1. First I really hope that Dean has a strong role in the mytharc, although unlike many I see Dean as having had stories in his own right for most seasons. However, I do think it’s unfair to say that if people don’t want certain specific things for Dean, then they don’t really like the character.

      Reply

10. I don’t need a mitharc for Dean, although it has by far more potential than anybody else primarily because they didn’t give him barely any, only that they stop making him only serving food to people that complain too much to the wrong person.
    And it doesn’t look good for 9 season, beginning with the problems falling out of sky literally, continue with that he has a very sick brother, an angel of the lord without grace, and a teen prophet who doesn’t want to be there. For not talking about Crowley. And finish with a punch of people with more eagerness for hunting than common sense: Garth, Charlie, and Krissy with his friends.
    My second wish it is that someone listen to Dean, for one time. Another thing that it is becoming ridiculous, to the level that he now can predict bad movements. In the first episode he imagined that Sam was with a girl. In the second one he advised Kevin that it was a very bad idea visiting his mother. In the third episode he said that in the end Sam would finish hunting. In fifth and sixth episode, we know why he didn’t tell Sam anything about Benny. In episodes seventh, tenth and seventeeth he knows that somethig bad it is happening with Cas. In episode ninth he has a background plan. In episode eleventh he said that it was a bad idea having Charlie there. In episode forteenth that the trials will end in a death. In sixteenth episode advise the mother for Zeus intentions, In ninteenth that he need Dean’s help. In twentieth that it was a bad idea Charlie hunting. And in sacrifice about Metraton intentions. Of the rest, in episodes fourth, twenty first and twenty second there isn’t much to talk about Dean.

    Reply

    1. [quote]My second wish it is that someone listen to Dean, for one time. [/quote]

       You mean other than Garth and Benny and Cas (especially in earlier seasons) and Charlie and Krissy and Grandpa Winchester and Bobby, if he ever comes back? Dean has been listened to, by many people. They may not always agree with him, but they do listen.

       Reply

       1. More that Dean listen to them.
          Garth, Charlie and Krissy are people to babysit, and the only with he had a real conversation was with Charlie and one of them: or she sympathized more with Sam or Dean didn’t tell the whole truth.
          Unfourtenately Grandpa Winchester only was in one episode, he doesn’t listen more than the girl in the episode of Sam’s wedding.
          Bobby practiced a tough love that he could saved with his suck it up, princess, and never was so hard with Sam. For someone that he want more Dean, he had a curious for to showed. Of course that he hadn’t have to agree with Dean but quickly he said that it is not bad idea to said yes to Lucifer or the drinking demon blood. He hasn’t made a second thought about Sam’s mental break or Sambot.
          It’s really that he had more relation with Cas and Benny. But in reality we heard more talking Cas and Benny to Dean that the other way. And sorry but in the first seasons of Castien neither it.

          Reply

    2. you are absolutely right. Dean is the harbinger of what is true and right and like Cassandra no one listens.

       Reply

    3. you are absolutely right. Dean is the harbinger or truth or right, and like Cassandra no one listens to him.

       Reply

11. What do I want for S9 Dean? Gosh, I’m not really sure. He’s always been a badass hunter and a great strategist and that should continue. I hope they continue with the maturity and growth that started to show itself in S8 and I liked the Dean who is a little more open about his feelings and yes even a little more of a hugger. I want Dean to have Sam’s back but not baby Sam like he has a tendency to do and I want Sam to act less like a bratty little brother. While we all like the “brother moments”, I think we could have them without the contrived arguments first. I want two, grown, mature men doing a job that they know is important and I want them to do it because they choose to do it and because they like working with their brother and best friend. I want them to laugh and have some fun together occasionally and to use and enjoy the “bat cave”.

    Reply

12. I really like the Dean character up until now. One can see and enjoy the evolution of the character and the actor since the beginning.

    From young Dean, the happy go lucky, intelligent, tough on the outside and all heart in the inside and goofy, to the Season 8 mature, wise, a glum hunter, who still manages to keep his heart, his family business, his brother alive and his goofiness, even after having gone through Hell, well, in his case, Hell, Heaven, Avalon and Purgatory, it was truly a pleasure to have watched through all these years this character, even when the writing wasn’t what I was hoping for, the actor and his unlimited talent left me with a smile.

    Season 8 really gave me what I wanted, the MOL bunker. I thought of something like that before, well, not the bunker but in a safe place. In my head I had this story: one with a lady hunter, who was a descendant of Samuel Colt and was trying to find this special safe house built by his ancestor. This special house will protect them from all monsters and they will bring all of Bobby’s books, that lady will become the new Bobby and eventually a love interest of one of the guys.

    I wanted Dean to find clarity. The same one that Elliott Ness talked about and Purgatory gave it to him. And of course, it gave him the opportunity to cement his legacy, keeping the family business and his brother alive!!

    We actually saw him with a food tray, a thermometer and cooking for his brother, not other actors in a flashback. And the confirmation that, all the good in Sam is thanks to his brother and not just his father. Intellectual Sam was formed because Dean read to him the classics, when they were kids. Dean really was born to be a father! And like Bobby, he probably will not have kids, but he did a good job with Sam and still does it.

    For season 9, basically, all I want from Dean is more smiles, to keep me interested and surprised, to keep me wanting more and from time to time to leave me with my mouth open (from a good scene or a good shirt-less or pants-less close up, not from a crappy writing)

    Ah! And most important, I want Dean to keep doing those amazing scenes where I can appreciate his acting skills, squeeze them as much as they can be squeeze in. I am being realistic here. How many seasons we have left, one or two? And how long will it be until he starts a new project? Maybe he will take a long hiatus to raise his family or something, that’s why I want to have as much of his talent bottle up in the lasts seasons , ‘cause I will be watching and re watching all. I’m even planning to take my dvd’s sets to the hospice!!

    I’m waiting Season 9 with more
    enthusiasm than last year. I can’t wait!!!!!

    Reply

    1. [quote]And the confirmation that,[b] all the good[/b] in Sam is thanks to his brother and not just his father.[/quote]

       So wait, when Sam screws up it’s all because he is a bad and tainted person but when he does something right it is ONLY because of Dean? That seems a little one sided. Don’t get me wrong, I think John was a pretty awful father, but if Sam gets to shoulder the blame for his bad actions, then he gets credit for his good one. Similarly, if you attribute ALL the good in Sam to Dean, then he has to be responsible for all the bad as well. I think there was a lot more balance than that. Dean did much good in raising Sam, but Sam also had his own drives for knowledge and compassion. Dean made some bad decisions about Sam in their childhood, lying to Sam for 8 years, dumping at Plucky Pennywhistle’s, but Sam turning to Ruby was part of his personality as well as the effect of Dean.

       Reply

       1. .

          Reply

    2. [quote] And the confirmation that, all the good in Sam is thanks to his brother and not just his father. Intellectual Sam was formed because Dean read to him the classics, when they were kids. Dean really was born to be a father! And like Bobby, he probably will not have kids, but he did a good job with Sam and still does it.[/quote]
       Sam is a good person because Sam is a good person
       Dean is a good person because Dean is a good person
       They are both BETTER people because they have (had) this wonderful bond between them since they were kids. They teach each other when to be empathetic, when to be righteous and when to be strong.
       Dean was the father figure to Sam that John couldn’t be and that is kudos to Dean. But being there for Sam has simultaneously kept Dean from being Daddy’s perfect little soldier, and that is partly because Sam did not allow Dean to round him into the character that Dean would have liked. Sam showed Dean how to be your own person and not what you are being molded to be.
       ‘All the good in Sam’ is NOT thanks to his brother. Sorry. 🙂
       I agree that Dean will eventually be a wonderful father. Most likely when he finally acknowledges the mistakes he has made (for which, mostly, he cannot be blamed – you CAN’T be a father to someone 4 years younger than you) trying to be Sam’s.

       Reply

       1. Eilf – actually, after John died Sam tried to become the good little soldier himself for a while and Dean started getting more clarity even before John died about not taking orders just because they were orders from John. I don’t think Dean has tried to mold Sam into anything, he just didn’t want him to succumb to demonic influences. Although Dean freely admits that he likes having his brother to hunt with, he is willing to let that go, with no hard feelings, if that is what Sam really wants. He said so this season and in other seasons. Just make a decision, one way or the other. Apparently, according to the S8 finale, Sam cares a great deal about what Dean thinks and is shaped by Deans opinion, for better or worse and Dean is shaped by his feelings for Sam as well. Hence, we get a great show about two great brothers! I don’t think Dean wants to be Sam’s parent, just his big brother.

          Reply

          1. Well yes but Sam was trying to be a good little soldier because he knew it was what Dean had spent almost all of season 1 trying to drum into him – that if they did what Dad wanted them to do everything would work out ok. Which is clearly a continuation of the way their relationship was from before Sam went to college.

             Dean had come around to the idea that Dad wasn’t always right BECAUSE he had been in a more grownup relationship with Sam and had begun to see that maybe Sam had a point with the ‘butting heads’. They were balancing out their ideas and becoming grown men. Where all that independence of thought went over the past few years I don’t know but there was a time when the guys were both right and both wrong depending on the situation.

             Nowadays even where there is a clear decision that can be made if Sam makes it it will be wrong (and if Dean made the same decision it would either turn out to be right or not Dean’s fault – this is bad storytelling if you ask me) someone has listed the examples on one of the threads today – it makes for interesting reading.

             In season 2 Sam was trying to atone for not being what he felt his father wanted him to be. This is part of the mourning process, just done differently to Dean’s mourning.

             [quote]Apparently, according to the S8 finale, Sam cares a great deal about what Dean thinks and is shaped by Deans opinion, for better or worse and Dean is shaped by his feelings for Sam as well. [/quote]
             Well yes, that is my understanding of Sam too (and Dean as I stated above). What makes you think that I don’t agree? I don’t entirely see what it has to do with my response to someone who (as I see it) is assuming that Sam is only a worthy person because Dean has made him so (though Manstrad may not have meant it exactly like that).
             I am guessing you mean that Dean didn’t [i]deliberately[/i] try to mold Sam the way his father was trying to mold him? I think that it was in both cases (Dean’s and John’s) a somewhat unconscious decision where being a soldier and following orders is seen to help save lives. Sam was never as included in the hunting life because Sam was younger and more of a thinker and he didn’t WANT to be a hunter, Dean did. Dean admired his father more than anything – of course he tried to instill his father’s values onto Sam, what other example did he (Dean) have? This is what I meant by molding. It has negative connotations because it wasn’t what [i]Sam[/i] wanted but Sam was not offered an alternative until he found his own (leave and go to college).

             I really feel that the only time that Dean has said to Sam to leave hunting (in a situation where it was a viable option) and it was to be his own decision was this season. Prior to that he has actively begged him not to leave and he has often said ‘I wish things were different’ without actually making them different.

             Reply

             1. In the pilot episode Dean says that he and Sam make a good team but Sam chooses to go back to Jess and school. He has no problem saying goodbye to Dean and Dean can’t stop that. When Jess gets killed Sam changes his mind about hunting because he wants revenge, not because of any feelings he has for Dean. In “Free To Be You and Me” Dean agrees with Sam that Sam should go off on his own and tells Cass that he feels really happy being out from under the burden of family. In “The End” when Sam calls Dean and wants to start hunting together again Dean says no at first but then decides differently when he sees what the future apart might bring for both of them. In the episode where Sam first meets Meg, Dean encourages Sam again to follow his own path, but Sam went back when he thought Dean was in trouble. Good call on Sam’s part. Sorry, but it’s not Dean’s job to actively make things different for Sam and if Sam hunts, well that’s on Sam. His decision and his alone. Hurtful words and deeds have been done by both brothers to each other. My problem with what you said was when you said that Dean needs to acknowledge his mistakes. I think both brothers have acknowledged their mistakes ad nausea but humans make mistakes and apparently so do angels.

             2. I said Dean needs to acknowledge his mistakes while trying to parent Sam. Any parent will tell you they have made mistakes. Dean has never been enough older than Sam to be able to be an effective parent – he has been, in general, an amazing big brother. I meant ‘acknowledge to himself’ (I did think of changing it to recognize so you can take it as meaning ‘recognize’ if that helps). Please don’t make that about me blaming Dean.
                [quote]When Jess gets killed Sam changes his mind about hunting because he wants revenge, not because of any feelings he has for Dean.[/quote]Though Sam had suggested that he would go back to hunting with Dean after his interview and it was clearly because he didn’t want to leave him alone when he so obviously wanted company. At that stage Sam’s getting a full ride to a career SHOULD have overriden Deans need for company. I mean at the very least they were going to need the money later on when Dean was old and unable to hunt any more (and what about when Dad showed up and HE was old – I mean what are the chances of any of them ever getting a pension or medicare)… whereas now they are still likely to be pulling credit card scams into their 90’s! I think that having a lawyer in the family is a great way of funding your hunter lifestyle – plus he could get them (Dean and Dad) off on some of the worser charges.

                The main part of my point which is that they are and should be equals and that Sam’s personality and moral makeup is not entirely (or even primarily) due to Dean though Dean had a whole lot of positive effect. I don’t actually understand why you appear to think this is some slight on Dean?

                As for the rest of your point I was thinking of the first few episodes of Season 5 when i said [i]viable[/i] option – it was perfectly obvious that Sam wasn’t going to get out of the Supernatural life at that time. He may not have been ‘hunting’ but he was being hunted. At the end of The End Dean said no but it wasn’t about getting Sam out of hunting it was bout Sam going hunting a long way from him…

                [quote]Sorry, but it’s not Dean’s job to actively make things different for Sam and if Sam hunts, well that’s on Sam. His decision and his alone.[/quote]
                Sam’s decision not to hunt went down very well with Dean beginning of the season, yes?
                [quote]Dean: So you just turned tail on the family business?
                Sam: Nothing says family quite like the whole family being dead.
                Dean: I wasn’t dead. In fact, I was knee-deep in God’s armpit, killing monsters. Which, I thought, is what we actually do.
                Sam: Yes, Dean, and as far as I knew, what we do is the thing that got every single member of my family killed. I had no one. No one. And for the first time in my life I was completely alone, and honestly I didn’t exactly have a road map. So, yeah, I fixed up the Impala and I just drove.[/quote]
                [quote]Dean: Hmm.
                Sam: What?
                Dean: Is that, uh, is that how you rationalize taking a year off? People will be okay?
                Sam: People were okay, Dean. You’re okay.
                …
                Sam: Look, it wasn’t like I was just oblivious. I mean, I read the paper every day, I saw the weird stories, the kind of stuff we used to chase.
                Dean: And you just said, what, not my problem? Sam: Yes. And you know what, the world went on. [/quote]
                Sam making a decision about hunting.

             3. We do agree on one thing and that is that Dean is not responsible for Sam’s moral make up and he is not parenting Sam. He is being Sam’s older brother. John was the parent and Dean was an older sibling responsible for a younger sibling. He has no parenting mistakes to take responsibility for. I don’t recall Sam saying that after his interview (episode 1) he would go back to hunting with Dean but I’ll rewatch the episode again tomorrow. I believe he planned on staying with Jess and going to law school.
                Sam may not have known where Dean was but he sure as hell knew where Kevin was. I can understand Sam not looking for Dean but not trying to help Kevin right from the get go was wrong and irresponsible. IMO and apparently in Sam’s opinion since he apologized to Kevin in the church. I think that was Dean’s point.
                My point in all this is that Sam has a mind of his own and hunts and doesn’t hunt for his own reasons. Which do not necessarily have anything to do with what Dean wants. Sam has no problem telling Dean no if he doesn’t want to do what Dean wants, nor should he. Dean is not responsible for Sam’s character, nor his decisions, either good or bad. I don’t think Sam knew Dean was alive and at the cabin when he came back. He was there because he had left Amelia. Does Sam want Dean’s respect and trust? Apparently yes. Does he have it? I don’t know. All I know for sure is he has Dean’s love.

             4. It has been pointed out that the topic here is expectations for Dean and we are probably off the point so since I agree with you and you appear to agree with me maybe we should leave it there 🙂

                EDIT: Reading back, ok, way, way off the topic would be more accurate. Sorry Alice!

             5. “Sam: People were okay, Dean. You’re okay.”

                People were not “okay”. Kevin wasn’t. But most importantly-Dean is not “okay” either-he wasn’t okay at the time Sam said that and he isn’t now, nor has he been since he came back from his own hell-and thinking that his brother couldn’t/didn’t care enough to even TRY looking for him when he was thrown into a violent and deadly dimension for an entire year!(and that Sam has now experienced himself, even if it was for less than a day; Dean “disappeared” in front of Sam, he didn’t die), had to hurt Dean Fiercely-abandonment being one of his greatest fears. As far as Dean knows, Sam didn’t even ATTEMPT to find him-WE now know that it was because Sam ran from his responsibilities as a hunter(Hunter Heroici) because he was likely burned out by it all-but DEAN does not know this. I’m sorry, but I think this subject requires more brotherly dialogue than we were given on it in S8. AND I think the subjects of Benny and Cas and their place in Dean’s life require a little more brotherly discussion in S9, also.

             6. I completely agree, Shelby2. I think all the subjects requires much more brotherly dialogue.

             7. [quote]People were not “okay”. Kevin wasn’t. [/quote]

                Well, at the beginning of the season Kevin had escaped from Crowley and was doing a great job of keeping under the demon radar. He was working on the demon tablet but eating well, sleeping enough and was mentally and physically healthy. After a year of being looked after by Sam and Dean his mother is dead and his girlfriend is dead. They were watched from the second Kevin escaped so Sam looking for Kevin wouldn’t have changed that. Kevin himself has gone from mentally and physically healthy to paranoid, eating poorly, sleeping poorly and being an absolute wreck. He actually was doing much better than he did under Sam and Dean’s care.

             8. eilf, I loved this whole post. I think it speaks perfectly to their relationship with each other and their father.

                And I agree I think Dean is “right” too often, but I do think sometimes that is, what I hope is, an unintended consequence of Dean always getting to explain himself and Sam rarely arguing or explaining himself. They used to have arguments that sometimes Dean would win and sometimes Sam would. But too often now Dean will say give his side and Sam will nothing or get mad and give a weak-ass argument or just flat out agree.

             9. “But too often now Dean will say give his side and Sam will nothing or get mad and give a weak-ass argument or just flat out agree.”

                IMO, this happened in the exact opposite manner as regards the brothers in the big brother dialogue in the S8 finale. And it is the exact same thing that happened in the big brother dialogue in Fallen Idols and in the episodes leading up to the “big” happenings and brother dialgoues at the end of S5. Dean always has to “change” HIS actions, thoughts, and feelings(pushing them down seems to be the go-to thing for Dean to do with his pain since the show’s inception) while Sam?- what exactly has ever been pointed out as Sam being needed to “change” as regards his interactions and thoughts and feelings concerning Dean? Is Sam perfect in this regard? That’s the feeling *I’m* getting from the showrunner and writers-that Sam pretty much nopthing about him that needs changing, while Dean has to do the bulk of the adjusting in this regard-to accommodate Sam and keep him around because Dean just can’t live w/o Sam-but Sam?-he’d be fine w/o Dean-perhaps his life would be even better w/o Dean. That’s the message I felt they conveyed in S8(again and some more) anyway.

             10. I’ll agree in that ONE episode Dean admitted that maybe he needed to change TOO-as in along with Sam. I definitely don’t think Sam is perfect and Sam’s misdeeds are repeated with frequency on the show, especially this season. Hell they listed things that weren’t even his fault-like being soulless.

                 So to bring this back more to topic.

                 They BOTH need to work on their communications skills. They BOTH learn to listen to each other and trust each others opinions and hash out disagreements, instead of ignoring the other and/or going off on their own. ETC. I don’t think either is in anyway perfect and that is the way I like them.

                 I actually think on Dean we are more in line than at first perception. When I was speaking to eilf I was thinking about Bloodlust. Dean wanted to wipe out all the vamps, along with Gordon. He was killing without mercy-he thought justifiably. He wasn’t BAD for thinking that way, but when turned out that they may be “innocent” he still didn’t want to listen, so he was WRONG. Sam had to be his conscious (as he was quite a bit those first 2 seasons).

                 Compare that to this season’s, werewolf and Benny. And last season’s Amy Pond. The show came out on the side of Dean’s opinion with little to no debate. Sure he felt a little bad about Amy but he still felt he was right and in the Mentalist they had Sam say he was right to without any real reason for the change.

                 Frankly, if we know that Dean’s instincts are always the right instinct it makes the show (and Dean) much less interesting and it gives Sam character no teeth. But if we see them BOTH struggle with what is the right thing to do.See them BOTH make good calls and bad calls then that makes for more interesting characters and storylines IMO.

13. Nice post Manstrad. I hope hospice is where you work or visit and not where you are a patient.

    Reply

14. I most wanted the writers to stop treating Dean as though he’s dumb. Anyone who could do all the things he does is quite the opposite. He’s the General, the one who always takes charge. If he was on “the island” Dean would be the one everyone looked to for survival. So, I’m thrilled the writers finally acknowledged Dean’s worth this season. I’ve always felt Dean was as smart as Sam and it’s just that he majored in girls, beer, and hunting while Sam studied.

    I also feel Dean knows exactly who he is and does not need or hope for things to be different. He’s a hunter, period. Is he capable of doing something other than hunting? Yes. He could be a chef & open a restaurant with Benny, LOL. That’s another show. While Sam wishes for more, Dean is quite content with who he is and I think his character will stay that way. And I like it!

    Reply

    1. I would so watch that show. Cas could wait tables…

       Reply

15. What I would want for Dean?

    For the show to explain to me why he is still on it aka a real role in the plot and Season-long mytharc. At this point Kevin is by far more important a character than Dean is. Even Garth is way less pathetic now and that is saying something, seeing as he started out.

    Because a cook and a maid? Are valid characters on Downton Abbey but in genre action like Supernatural? Not so much.

    He was so painfully superflouus during Sam`s trials storyline, it was embarassing to watch.

    As for the Samwise Gamgee analogy, at least that guy got to be physically part of the action, he didn`t stay home in the shire to cook for the important scenes. And he did manage to have some backbone and stood up for himself.

    Sam calls Dean out on having, gasp, turned to friends – eww, the horror and the insult – and Dean hastens to assure him that he, Dean, is so sycophantic, he will always be a loyal bitch and nothing shall come before Sam. World? Can rot. Innocent people? Can die in a fire. Dean`s friends? Are only good as canon fodder. Samwise would never have sunk so low, never.

    Nor does that signify a beautiful and equal relationship. It`s horrifying.

    So if more of the second half of Season 8 is what is in story for Dean in Season 9, especially the painfully embarassing Great Escapist and Taxi Driver, or the Finale?

    My wish would be to kill the character off, stat.

    Unfortunately, I expect them to make him all but Sam`s devoted Golem. Just without getting the action. More like a Golem meant for housework and fussing in the background.

    Alternatively, he might do this for Cas` storyline as well. Because that is what the character of Dean has been reduced to, a shadow of a housewife.
    No hunter anymore, let alone a leader or anything inspiring. If that role was played by a woman, people would tear their hairs out because of the clichéd sexism involved.

    I guess if Sam was my fave, I wouldn`t really care who fawned over him and cooked for him because that wouldn`t even be an actual (albeit fictional) person, just a servant, there to shine light on MY fave and utterly revolve around him. Seeing as I became invested in Dean, I can`t go with enjoying the subhuman construct for him.

    Reply

    1. I couldn’t agree with you more, Sasha.

       Reply

    2. [quote]What I would want for Dean?

       For the show to explain to me why he is still on it aka a real role in the plot and Season-long mytharc. At this point Kevin is by far more important a character than Dean is. Even Garth is way less pathetic now and that is saying something, seeing as he started out.

       Because a cook and a maid? Are valid characters on Downton Abbey but in genre action like Supernatural? Not so much.

       He was so painfully superflouus during Sam`s trials storyline, it was embarassing to watch.

       As for the Samwise Gamgee analogy, at least that guy got to be physically part of the action, he didn`t stay home in the shire to cook for the important scenes. And he did manage to have some backbone and stood up for himself.

       Sam calls Dean out on having, gasp, turned to friends – eww, the horror and the insult – and Dean hastens to assure him that he, Dean, is so sycophantic, he will always be a loyal [u][b]bitch[/b][/u] and nothing shall come before Sam. World? Can rot. Innocent people? Can die in a fire. Dean`s friends? Are only good as canon fodder. Samwise would never have sunk so low, never.

       Nor does that signify a beautiful and equal relationship. It`s horrifying.

       So if more of the second half of Season 8 is what is in story for Dean in Season 9, especially the painfully embarassing Great Escapist and Taxi Driver, or the Finale?

       My wish would be to kill the character off, stat.

       Unfortunately, I expect them to make him all but Sam`s devoted Golem. Just without getting the action. More like a Golem meant for housework and fussing in the background.

       Alternatively, he might do this for Cas` storyline as well. Because that is what the character of Dean has been reduced to, a shadow of a housewife.
       No hunter anymore, let alone a leader or anything inspiring. If that role was played by a woman, people would tear their hairs out because of the clichéd sexism involved.

       I guess if Sam was my fave, I wouldn`t really care who fawned over him and cooked for him because that wouldn`t even be an actual (albeit fictional) person, just a servant, there to shine light on MY fave and utterly revolve around him. Seeing as I became invested in Dean, I can`t go with enjoying the subhuman construct for him.[/quote]Not bitch it is jerk.

       Reply

    3. I can see and feel and understand completely all the reasons for your anger. I’m experiencing similar feelings, too-and every point you made is valid, IMO; and an extremely legitimate concern regarding Dean and the role that he was assigned in the second half of S8, IMO, too.

       Reply

       1. The above was a reply to Sasha’s comment.

          Reply

16. Before reading any posts that might sway me, I would like for Dean to be happy and fun loving once in a while like in season 1. I know there’s been a s**t load of water under the bridge since then, but there must still be a bit of the season 1 Dean left. How wonderful to see another smile like in “Supernatural Christmas” when Sam gave him his last Christmas. And how many times in 8 years have we seen a real belly laugh from him?

    I’d like to see Sam laugh, just once in a while, at Dean’s corny jokes and remarks. And a few more of them as they are getting scarce these days. And once again hear “Bitch!” “Jerk!”

    I love his nesting in the batcave. It’s a callback to the times John left the boys on their own and Dean was both father and mother to little Sammy. He must have cooked many a meal for his little brother and dressed him and put him to bed and read him a story and taught him to tie his laces etc. That doesn’t diminish him in ANY way. It enhances the hero that he is and has always been. No wonder his love for Sam is everything to him. He is both father and mother to him and will always be, no matter what Sam wants for himself or how many times Sam leaves him.

    I wish for more episodes in which Dean can show off his abilities in research and hunting and saving people. I want him to know he makes a big big difference, and I want him to have the satisfaction of knowing he is saving folks, whether grateful or ignorant and maybe getting some thank yous from time to time like in the past.

    World ending scenarios are not what I tune in for. I’d like to see them caring and taking care of each other when sick or wounded. I’d like to see them once, shopping for clothes at Salvation Army or Goodwill, and the tough time finding something to fit the Moose. 😀

    I’d like to see Dean hustling pool, or poker, and getting into trouble and Sam coming to the rescue and beating the snot out of whoever is beating up his brother. (I read fan fic, and some of those writers would be great on the show, especially now that my favourite Ben Edlund has jumped the ship).

    I never want to see Dean possessed, by angel or demon. I love that he is a human hero and has no super abilities, and just being him can scare the living crap out of the bad guys and monsters.

    I could go on forever but won’t. I really don’t have any whining or complaints to express. I love the guy and admire Jensen for giving me the most complicated and endearing character ever created!
    Dean Winchester is my hero and always will be, no matter what the writers put him through! God bless him! 😛

    PS: Yes, give him a pretty girl now and then to flirt with and get busy with for a while. Put the spring back in his step and the twinkle into his eye! 😳

    Reply

    1. +100

       Reply

17. I want Dean to have a storyline, I want Dean to be important to the mytharc and storylines, I want Dean to have a storyline that’s about him and that he gets to be proactive in, I want Dean to be his own individual and more than just Sam’s brother and caretaker.

    I watch the show for the storylines, not for the pretty, so just having Jensen on screen isn’t enough for me. This isn’t about screen time, it’s about the stories and it’s about balance. Dean is an amazing, iconic character and Jensen is an amazing actor. Jensen can do more with his facial expressions than some actors can do with a page of dialogue. I know Jensen is amazing when it comes to conveying emotion and drama, but I want to see more for Dean than reacting to other characters.

    With regard to some of comments bulleted in this article, I have to address one of them (I was going to address a second comment, but it’s rude and anti-Dean, and I decided not to give it attention):

    “•I also want the protective and/or caring big brother back. I swear in a few of the episodes I wasn’t sure if he even cared if Sam made it.”

    I’m not sure Dean could have done anything more in Season 8 to be protective and/or caring, he pushed his feelings to the side, he cooked for Sam, he literally fed Sam, he literally put Sam in a bath, he tried to get Sam to take it easy and not hunt, and he even killed his friend for Sam. There is no more Dean could have done.

    Dean is a big brother, he is protective, and he is that way for everyone he loves, including Sam, Castiel, Bobby, and Charlie, but that shouldn’t be all he is, that should not be what defines him. It’s part of who he is, but it’s not all of who he is, and I wish the show would remember that.

    Reply

    1. [quote]:

       “•I also want the protective and/or caring big brother back. I swear in a few of the episodes I wasn’t sure if he even cared if Sam made it.”

       I’m not sure Dean could have done anything more in Season 8 to be protective and/or caring, he pushed his feelings to the side, he cooked for Sam, he literally fed Sam, he literally put Sam in a bath, he tried to get Sam to take it easy and not hunt, and he even killed his friend for Sam. There is no more Dean could have done.

       [/quote]

       What about him taking Sam to the toilet, that they missed out and short of that I’m not sure what else Dean can do to prove he cares.

       Whether they write it that Sam sees it like or those that prefer Sam see it like that says more about how Sam is being written than it does about Dean’s writing or lack there of seeing how caretaking and running after others seemed to be Dean’s sole MO in the second half of season 8.

       Reply

    2. [quote]”•I also want the protective and/or caring big brother back. I swear in a few of the episodes I wasn’t sure if he even cared if Sam made it.” I’m not sure Dean could have done anything more in Season 8 to be protective and/or caring,[/quote]
       I think you are misinterpreting Alice’s article. She is talking about what she (and commenters) were hoping for for Season 8 And your response shows that you are happy that this actually did occur.

       Reply

       1. [quote][quote]”•I also want the protective and/or caring big brother back. I swear in a few of the episodes I wasn’t sure if he even cared if Sam made it.” I’m not sure Dean could have done anything more in Season 8 to be protective and/or caring,[/quote]
          I think you are misinterpreting Alice’s article. She is talking about what she (and commenters) were hoping for for Season 8 And your response shows that you are happy that this actually did occur.[/quote]

          I think Shelby’s point was she wasn’t happy about what occurred.

          Dean caring for Sam the way he did in season 8 got to stupid proportions seeing how he went from focused hunter to one step short of being willing to change Sam’s nappy and still Sam seemed to think that he was less than others in Dean’s head.

          Reply

          1. I am afraid I am not going to discuss this with either of you if you are going to continue to talk about ‘being taken to the toilet’ or ‘changing nappies’. I am happy to have a respectful conversation with you but this just comes across as you getting digs at Sam which are totally uncalled for. Sam did not ask to be helped. If the writers went overboard with the necessity from Dean’s point of view to be a caretaker then complain about Dean. Thanks.

             Reply

             1. I don’t know where you’re getting that I’m making digs at Sam, I’m not. This is an article on what we want for Dean and what I want is for Dean to be more than a caretaker and to have his own storyline, that is about him. It has nothing to do with Sam and everything to do with Dean and the writers.

             2. Apologies Shelby. I misread one of Sid5’s comments as coming from you. My mistake.

             3. If you have taken that as bashing Sam my apologises because this is a article about what is happening with Dean.

             4. eilf my comments were meant to show that I wasn’t happy with regard to how they wrote the relationship with both boys. Dean’s caretaking was over the top and to my mind did go to a place that was extreme and how that went on with Sam was a bit much.

          2. sid5 – I did misinterpret the bulleted comments, I thought they were wishes for Season 9 and I thought someone was complaining we didn’t see enough of it in season 8 and I was seriously disagreeing with that.

             I agree with you that what we saw in season 8 was over the top.

             Reply

             1. It did take me reading it twice to get that the bulleted comment to see that was asking for season 8,. I though you were commenting how successful the bulleted comments had gone down and with regard to that one they went over the top for no real reason, hence my comment about taking Sam to the toilet.

       2. I did misinterpret those comments, I thought they were wishes for Season 9.

          My response did not show I was happy or not, I was merely disagreeing with what I thought was someone wanting to see more of because they didn’t see enough of it in season 8.

          Reply

          1. No worries Shelby, it was an honest mistake.

             To everyone else, the issue is closed. Nothing more to discuss here. Please move onto the main topic. Thanks!

             Reply

    3. Shelby, all I did was cut and paste comments in the comments section regarding Dean in those two articles. It really wasn’t meant to degrade or offend, just show what some fans wanted to see. I didn’t really want to filter comments. Hey, I even included the comment blasting wish lists! I was actually hoping some people would say that they’re glad some of those things in the comments [i]didn’t[/i] happen.

       Jensen most definitely is an amazing actor. I think I speak for everyone here where we are in total agreement with that. I’m curious what sort of material they plan on throwing him in season nine. Hopefully the writers will remember the strong assets they have when creating scripts. There were several times they did forget that in season eight, but it still wasn’t as bad as season seven.

       Reply

18. I will echo those who wish for Dean to have a storyline that doesn’t revolve around being caretaker. I love his caring side, I love him as big brother, but I want to see something different. I also think it would do wonders for Sam’s character development if he was put in position of caretaker/protector. I love protective little brother – and we’ve only gotten brief snippets of that over the years.

    I too, would love to see even more sibling-humor on the show. Sam laughing at Dean’s jokes, the brothers just being brothers.

    And I agree with those who say it’s important that Dean have a storyline with independent significance. I’m disturbed by the fact that he envisions no future for himself, that he still thinks he’s a grunt whose worth is dependent upon Sam’s happiness. In short – I want to see Sam make good on that promise to take Dean to that light at the end of the tunnel.

    I’m a big fan of the role-reversal, I think it would open up some creative avenues and give the actors some refreshing material if Sam were to step into the caretaker role, and Dean into the role of one needing looked after.

    I’d love to see Dean deal with the onset of some Supernatural power/challenge/illness/transformation – [i]something [/i] that effects him and forces him to confront himself, to rely on Sam and his friends for guidance/protection, etc. And preferably something that results in a positive – such as helping rebuild his own self-worth and sense of purpose. For some reason, I’m thinking of Dean somehow gaining the power to heal people’s physical wounds through touch – that would be cool and would give Dean a purpose beyond just dying on the battlefield. Just a for-example – I’m sure Jeremy Carver could think up something much cooler. 🙂

    But yes, more humor, more reliance on and trust in Sam (that would tie in nicely with the S8 finale!), and a storyline that doesn’t involve being the caretaker/protector of everyone else. That’d be awesome for S9.

    Reply

    1. Hi Bamboo. I love your ideas for a storyline for Dean. I hope he gets most or all of them!
       Especially the humour and fun! I miss that so much.

       Reply

    2. Hey Bamboo, nice post! I would also love to see those things for Dean and I agree with eilf about “especially the humour and fun”. There was a little of that last half of the season and it was great to see!

       Reply

    3. +100

       Reply

    4. Bamboo24 –
       YES! THIS!!
       All of This! 🙂

       Reply

       1. Great ideas, Bamboo!

          Reply

19. HA! I am happy to see another Shelby here and even happier to see that we share many of the same hopes for Dean in S9. For the first time since the show has started, I will be DVRing every episode, but only watching if the reviews sound appealing to me as a fan who wants something more than strictly and only the caretaker role for Dean for any protracted length of time. I would likely even skip single episodes of this set-up, no matter the character that he’s being nursemaid to-that’s how sick I am of that particular role for Dean.
    I’d love for him to be the center of the myth-arc that all the other characters talk about and worry over for once. I DON’T want him to be written or seen by the other characters as “weak” or “less” if they do this, though. Let him fight through his pain as they allow Sam to do every time they’ve given this to Sam. Shoot, I’d rather see a Darker version of Dean than what was given to us after his sojourn in Hell and PurgatoryDean in the first half of the season came close, but then that was all tossed aside as if Purgatory never happened in the second half of S8-and why?-well, because Sam’s problems-all of them, even his loss of the horrible Amelia-were apparently so much worse than any problem of Dean’s could have been. So. Sick. Of. This.
    If Dean needs looking after, I’d like to see him still doing everything as if he wasn’t altogether “needy”-as they do for Sam in spades every time Sam has had that role. Let him at least appear strong even if it has to be in a DarkDean role. I could and would SO! go for that.They could have him host an angel for a time to accomplish that. I’ve felt cheated of being able to see Jensen in that role since S5.
    To finish off, I will say that ITA with everything that CG said. Everything. And that this fan’s “expectations” are completely different from her wants and hopes and desires. The seeming disinterest on the part of the showrunner and the producers concerning both Jensen and his character in most of their S8 interviews what worry me the most and what have left me with little real expectations of any of this happening for Dean in S9. Basically, and IMO, the second half of S8, has extinguished most of the “hope” and expectations in the greater Dean fandom for something awesome for Dean in S9. They wouldn’t even validate his feelings of mistrust in Sam, and this after all that Sam did(and did not do) that hurt Dean so deeply in the first 9 episodes of S8. Some will choose to “forget” the first half of S8 because it makes things “easier” for them to do that. But it’s still canon and not so easily dismissed or forgotten by everyone-especially those who are interested in a balanced and well-told story concerning the TWO brothers and protagonists and LEAD actors and characters on this show.
    Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this, but I think most Deanfans will still avoid coming here to respond. The reputation as predominantly a Sam site is apparent in the comments to anything that’s written or posted here. Even the one Dean-leaning writer on the staff sees nothing wrong with Dean(and Jensen) being kept in strictly and only the Caretaker role for the duration of the series. The brothers together forever, no matter what or how, is NOT a reflection of the greater part of the Dean fandom, at this point in the series, IMO. “Personhood” for Dean(something I read somewhere…) is a better reflection of that, again IMO. Here’s to hoping that in S9, the showrunner and his writers will end up exploring and justifying and RESOLVING(through brother dialogues) DEAN’S feelings and thoughts in the same in-depth manner that they wound up exploring Sam’s in the second half of S8.

    Reply

    1. Hi Shelby2,

       Just to let you know that while I’m a Sam-girl (just because I relate to him more, not because he’s “better”) I can see why you’re annoyed at the writers. I’m annoyed at them too. They aren’t treating either Sam or Dean’s characters consistently, never mind allowing them to grow. For the sake of both Deanfans and those who just want something fresh it’s time Dean got the limelight.

       BTW I could totally go for DarkDean! It’s time Jensen had all the fun of playing bad 🙂 He said it was great fun in the film My Bloody Valentine

       Reply

    2. Hello Shelby2, I wanted to say right out the chute that I an a Dean fan also. I think that your statement about sweetondean wanting Dean be kept in “strictly and only the caretaker roll for the duration of the series” is an oversimplification and inaccurate characterization of her feelings. Her articles speak for themselves. The truth is many of us Dean and Dean leaning fans did simply not get bent out of shape over the idea that Dean took care of Sam in the latter part of the season. We did not feel it was demeaning or not in character. This was a time of great need and Dean stepped up. This aspect of Dean has been apparent since the inception of the series. It is not ALL of who Dean is but it will never NOT be part of how he defines himself. There needs to be better communication, more trust, which will ultimately lead to a healthier relationship and partnership between the brothers. I am not sure whether your statement regarding the “greater” part of the Dean fandom is true or not but all of us have our viewpoints and are not any less valid. Thank you.

       Reply

    3. Shelby2, I’m hesitant to respond to this post and I doubt our viewpoints will ever fully align (which is all good-there’s no reason everyone has to agree) because while I would like Dean to be more at the center of the supernatural storyline or the the one in need in season. I disagree that his [i]only[/i] role has been as caretaker -ever. Though I do agree that it was very predominant the 2nd half of this season. And I definitely disagree that the showrunners have ever ignored his character. The first half on S8 almost completely revolved around Dean, but you actually made the most important argument on how he is seen by the writers and showrunners when you were talking about Sam’s transgressions.

       Dean has always been “protected” by the writers. He has always been given the opportunity to explain any of his mistakes or questionable decisions. That is when he is allowed to make questionable decisions. When given a similar situation with Sam in the Cage and Dean settling down. They made sure to have Dean say he was still looking for a way to get Sam out. They gave a poignant montage comparing his old life with Sam and his new life with Lisa to show how much he was suffering. How you possibly blame him for trying to capture a little happiness while continuing to look? Or even this season, when he play that hurtful trick on Sam in Citizen Fang. They had him explain to Sam why they did it and admit it was wrong to Charlie and show contrition. While Sam was given no reason for why he did something completely out of character which now as you say is canon.

       Not that I want them to give up explaining Dean’s actions (although explaining Sam’s would be nice too), but I do think it shows that this character is much more protected in the writer’s room than any other character on the show.

       As much as I loved the supportive Dean of the 2nd half, I do agree that the PST Dean was dropped without ever really dealing with that and that is a shame because I would have enjoyed them showing Dean’s darkside to some extent. And it looked like they were going to but only remnants left over from it in the 2nd half were Benny and Dean being a dick to Kevin(at least that is the reason I’m giving him). I think they chicken out when it comes to REALLY risking Dean’s character. And maybe that is the reason he sometimes loses out in plot. They don’t want to risk the “hero” of the the story. I don’t know.

       Though I do think there is a large myth about Dean not driving the plot though. Or being part of the mytharc. Just because he stays human doesn’t mean he is part of the mytharc. He is the human part. And for all that it’s about the supernatural it is a very humanistic show. And humans (with Dean at the forefront) uphold the ultimate ideals of the show. Love. Family. Loyalty. Free-will. Fighting the unwinnable fight. Sacrifice. etc.

       So while I would love for them to explore different aspects of Dean, even dirty him up a bit more than they are usually willing to do, I do like that he has always remained human and driven the show from that perspective. But maybe with Sam being possibly “purified” now and fully human now it would be a good time to reverse roles.

       I could really see some great storylines coming from Dean being tainted with some dark force that Sam has to help him overcome. So on that I think we could agree.

       Finally, I completely disagree that this is a Sam site. (if anything I’ve found most of the reviewers to be a little Dean leaning-although not by much, well SOD is more than a little but her reviews are very balanced). Just because a reviewer likes the direction Dean is going doesn’t make it a Sam site. It just means there are different preferences for the character.

       Reply

       1. Not trying to bust into anything, but I have a question you might be able to address. I’m always surprised to see people unhappy with how Dean treated Kevin, and I have seen this opinion expressed by more than you, so I don’t mean to single you out. I’m just trying to understand.

          Dean treated Kevin exactly the way his father figure, Bobby, treated him. Bobby was gruff and always conveyed his concern in suck-it-up speeches to Dean, and he was celebrated for it. How is what Dean did any different? Sure, he told Kevin he was stuck in the life until they closed the gates, but is he wrong? He sought Kevin out to protect him, tried to advise him to stay away from his mother for her safety, tried to provide both of them a safe place with a protector, checked on him regularly, brought him food, praised him for good work . . . I guess I just don’t see how Kevin was so greatly mistreated by Dean. He was basically Bobby to him, so why is Bobby praised and Dean knocked for the same behavior?

          Just curious.

          Reply

          1. just saying, no I think you make a fair point. But to me Dean was raised to hunt. And chose to come back to hunting. At times he has even enjoyed it (not enough lately but still). And while Bobby (and probably John) had a suck it up attitude, it was also came with loving concern. In Bobby’s case, we saw that it was usually because he was worried about him and was afraid, Dean was going to get himself killed. Or was we he gave the boohoo speech he was equally worried about Sam. And probably also knew Dean would never forgive himself, it something happened to Sam and he didn’t try to save him. Besides Bobby was family. He had a past with them and had there backs countless times, so for me he earned the right to hand out tough love on occasion. And Dean knew that Bobby loved him and would always be there for him.

             Kevin was a completely innocent 17 year old kid(now all of maybe 19) who was thrown into this horrible situation and had [b]no one [/b]through most of that time. The only time he truly had someone is the few months with his mother. Because except for the Great Escapist where they expressed some sadness at his death, they have used him like a tool. Basically, “Give it what it needs in order to work properly.” Don’t get me wrong, Sam hasn’t been much better than Dean but least he wasn’t telling him to push on after Kevin said he thought he had a stroke or telling him to suck it up after watching his girlfriends neck get broken. They have left by himself in a extremely risky situation and came by and see him once and a while to get updates on his work. That doesn’t sound like Bobby to me. Or Dean for that matter. And what was really irritating is that he being all sweet concern with Sam in the same episode sometimes. Or that they would take others to the batcave and leave Kevin on the boat completely isolated. They didn’t stay and protect him or teach him to protect himself. He really did better before Dean came back. So he is still a kid who has no one but himself to trust really. Given his past history with them I see no reason he should expect them to have his back once he’s not needed anymore.

             Reply

             1. Thank you for your response, Kelly. I should come clean and say Bobby’s boo-hoo/suck it up speeches never did much for me personally, but they are the standard that show has laid down for caring gestures. So it seems reasonable that Dean would adopt the tactics employed by Bobby since 1) that is the model he has and 2) they proved to be effective on him, so far as we know. I don’t think it’s wrong to say that Dean says what he does because he cares about Kevin. He cared enough to track him down out of purgatory, reunite him with his mother even when he thought it was a bad idea, and to try to take care of him. Just as Bobby did, he tried to keep Kevin going by keeping his mind focused on his job, because Kevin’s not going to be able to get out of the danger he’s in until the gates are closed. So to me, I just don’t see a big difference here.

                Now, is Kevin sympathetic? Of course he is. He’s been through a terrible time. So has Dean. And Sam. And Castiel. At the end of S7, Dean told Cas that no one cared if he was broken—they still had work to do. Dean’s learned that the hard way from life (and Bobby was there to reinforce that). Seals breaking didn’t stop because Dean was suffering from hell PSTD. The Leviathans didn’t disappear because Sam’s wall broke. So, yes, Dean has hardened to the viewpoint that the world doesn’t stop because they suffer. Kevin decided to undertake the mission of closing the gates—he could have disappeared and tried to hide himself away again. After all, he’d done so for a year before Dean and Sam found him again. So by choosing to take on the closing of the gates, he signed up to be a soldier in the war. Maybe he didn’t realize that at the time, but he did, so he wasn’t treated any differently than Sam, Dean, and Castiel treat each other. Dean may not have spoken to Kevin about a light at the end of the tunnel, but Dean didn’t see one for himself, let alone anyone else. As Bobby would say, Kevin was no longer a person, so how much good did it do him to think about how hard life was for him? Focus on the job.

                As for leaving him alone, they didn’t. DJ Qualls wasn’t available, but show told us that Kevin had been left in his care. So as far as canon is concerned, Sam and Dean left Kevin protected. They checked up on him by phone—just like Bobby did most of the time. How many times did Bobby drop by to check in on the boys or bring them food on the road? Not that often—not many more times than Dean checked up on Kevin.

                You make a good point, though, showing another way that care-taker!Dean undermined the character. By having Dean hyper-focused on Sam’s every care and need, he was not allowed to show much of any care for anyone else—Kevin, Benny, even Castiel in the finale. Further, the structure of show using guest characters undermined Sam and Dean. They didn’t show DJ Qualls and then forgot Garth was supposed to be looking out for Kevin. They didn’t want Kevin underfoot every episode, so they didn’t have him brought to the bat cave. Next season, there’s a great probability half of fans are going to be mad when Castiel is somewhere else and Sam and Dean are not taking care of the newly-human angel. Nature of the beast, I’d say.

                As for Kevin having no one to trust, I don’t think that would bother Dean much. Dean doesn’t trust him—or anyone else—and Kevin’s run out on Sam and Dean before, just like Dean and Sam have left him, too. I don’t think Kevin’s going to want to see them once the job is over (though he might take off once he realized that they didn’t complete the trials). He doesn’t seem that eager to have Sam and Dean around as it is. I still maintain that Dean is using what Bobby taught him is the correct methods to treat others with Kevin and is not particularly mistreating Kevin by those standards. Kevin may be younger and not have grown up in the life, but he chose to join this life when he chose to work with Dean and Sam instead of staying hidden, so it makes sense for Dean to treat him as an equal, i.e., the way he generally treats Castiel and Sam (when not given care-taker as his only rle) and the way Bobby treated him. Just my opinion.

             2. just saying, I do see your point. I have to admit I wonder if the differences in how we see the situation come from maybe a difference in age(I don’t know this since I don’t know your age). 😀 Kevin bring out the motherly instincts in me, I confess. The boys(guys) do too but at least they have each other and Bobby when he was alive. I can’t see Kevin as having S and D or Garth. They’d showed that montage of Kevin taking place over several weeks perhaps months. There was no one there but him. And Kevin said he hadn’t seen Garth. He couldn’t really leave the boat often because of the danger. So he basically was in solitary confinement. With small breaks from Garth and the guys. I know logistically why they didn’t have Garth around or put him in the Batcave but that doesn’t change the character’s circumstances.

                As far as Dean’s tough love, I do see the character as being much more like the guy who was taking care of Sam than the guy who was pushing a kid to his breaking point. Dean has always been fantastic with kids and teenagers. Just this season they showed a completely different side when he was with Krissy and her friends. Krissy can’t be more than a few years younger than Kevin.

                Also, I know a guy whose son who he hadn’t seen since he was two, came to live with him as a teenager. The things he said to his son were not that much harsher than the things my sister (and I) have said to her kids. But her kids know she loves them, know she would throw herself in front of a bullet for them, so when she berates them, they have that knowledge. But this guy’s kid looked beaten down, because they didn’t have that history. Blood or not, they weren’t family.

                I seriously doubt Kevin sees Sam and Dean as friends let alone family. Now when Dean has said stuff to Cas like that it hasn’t bothered me. 1. Angel or next year former angel. 2. Old as the hills. 3. I do think Cas and Dean considered each other family. 4. Not the same circumstances. Crowley broke his girlfriends neck right in front of him. And hours later Dean was telling him to suck it up. I just don’t see Dean doing that normally to ANYONE unless they are in a life or death situation at that moment.

                I suppose Dean could just see it as treating him like an equal despite his age. But even Dean admits he needs Sam to have his back and that things are just better with him around. So I still say leaving him in such isolation is kinda mean.

                I’m sorry I still think Dean’s treatment of him is OOC and pretty bad.

             3. Kelly, you’re probably onto something when you wonder about the difference in how we view Kevin. To be truthful, the inconsistent way they wrote his character eliminated a lot of my interest in him. In 8.1, he was enthusiastic about closing the gates and proud of his escape. In 8.2, his spine has disappeared to the point where he’s cringing at tattoos and hiding in his mother’s shadow. In 8.11, he’s dispensing advice to Dean about removing distractions from his life. Then he goes crazy, until 8.17 when Crowley grabs him and he’s back to BAMF mode from 8.1. He ends the season with a case of the quits. Now, Sam and Dean go through this kind of character manipulation, too, but I’ve grown with them and love them, so I try to overlook the less egregious problems in consistency there. I really don’t love Kevin, and when I don’t know who he’s going to be from week to week, I find it hard to develop an attachment to him. I had no maternal instinct for him, and by the end I was pretty much ambivalent about him at all.

                But to speak further to your point, maybe if they had spent more time showing him with no one there for him and him really being bothered by that it would have made more of an impact. As it was, he sent his mother away because she was too much of a distraction, so it seems to me he wouldn’t have wanted anyone, including Dean and Sam, around. Show set him up as preferring solitude when they didn’t want his character on-screen, but when they needed drama he’s back and stir-crazy? Suddenly, Garth the uber-hunter and new Bobby can’t be bothered to be there for the person providing the means to end demons? It all felt manipulative to me, so I didn’t much care, I have to admit.

                I don’t see how Dean can be the one pushing Kevin to his breaking point while at the same time also neglecting him through leaving him alone. One, I think that takes agency from Kevin, who was the one who told Sam and Dean about closing the gates and pushed himself to find the solution in order to regain his life. Being young doesn’t mean he didn’t know what he wanted. Second, I can agree that Dean is usually different with kids, but at the same time, I do think that Kevin presented himself as an equal partner/soldier in their fight, so he is being treated as such. He didn’t complain that he was being pushed too hard or being treated unfairly—he was focused on his job.

                I understand your example. The thing is, Kevin’s not family, nor as far as I can tell does he have any desire to be. He’s not like Charlie—he doesn’t love the Winchesters or even seem to want them around. So he’s not going to treat him like Sam—who does Dean treat like Sam? He’s not going to treat him like Krissy, because the circumstances they met under and how they relate to each other are entirely different. To me Kevin isn’t being seen as a kid because he has continually presented himself as an equal in their mission, and that’s the way Dean is treating him. Kevin presented himself in 8.1 as the boys’ ally, not their pseudo-brother. He didn’t ask for their advice or protection—he wanted to work with them towards a common goal. As for telling him to suck it up, I see no difference there from Bobby telling Dean to suck it up after his brother strangled him. As Bobby would have said a la 4.21, there were other things to worry about than Kevin’s feelings, right? So if we accept it from one character . . .

                Actually, I’d say from beginning of the season to the end Dean has been a little softer on Kevin than he was in the beginning, after his purgatory PSTD magically disappeared. Yes, he was harsh at the beginning, and there were extenuating circumstances, considering Dean’s own considerable damage at that point. Dean did mellow to the point of bringing him food, checking in, and moving him into the bat cave. So by the end, I do think Dean was returning to a softer standpoint, but I don’t think Kevin was ever really personally hurt by Dean or Sam’s treatment of him. Nor did he ever behave as if he wanted something different from him. I don’t think Kevin was treated that badly overall, and not any different than Bobby treated Dean, whom he supposedly loved like a son.

                So it is all a matter of perspective, and we can agree to disagree if you like. Thanks again for the explanation.

             4. You’re probably right. It is probably how we are seeing Kevin, because I really like him and think he’s a sweet kid. So it bothers me that they HAVEN’T brought him into the fold so to speak. There’s a couple lines in Firefly that sum it up for me. It’s something like,”The Captain didn’t make them them fugitives.” And the reply was,”But he could have made them family.” That’s how I feel about Kevin. If they are asking so much from him and he is risking so much, why isn’t he like Cas? Or to a lesser extent Charlie? Obviously no one is going to be like Sam or even Bobby. But it does feel like they keep him at a distance and isolated. So to me instead feeling like he’s part of the team, it feels like they are just using him. And it bothers me. Especially when Dean is so rough on him when he is there.

                But if you don’t feel sympathetic towards the character I could see where it wouldn’t bother you.

             5. As you can say in so many cases, I think it’s all a matter of writing, or more specifically, how the writing unintentionally affected the characters. For some reason, the writers didn’t want to bring Kevin into the fold, so they didn’t, and it didn’t reflect well on Sam or Dean. They weren’t family, and they were using each other–Dean and Sam used Kevin for translation, and Kevin used Sam and Dean as his proxies to carry out the trials that would allow him to reclaim his life. It was symbiotic, but not warm at all, and in a show where family is supposed to be everything, it does stick out.

                For me, the writing failed to make Kevin a consistent character, so I was, like I said, at most ambivalent to him and his plight. I liked him in some episodes and found him hard to take in others, so it averaged out to meh. I’d like to think if they’d been more consistent with him, he would have had a better impact on me. So I’ll blame the writing for both how the Winchesters related to Kevin and how Kevin appeared to me as a fan. Yeah, it’s the PTB’s fault. That works for me. 😉

             6. Writers characterization fail. That works for me too. But for you it Kevin and for me it’s Sam and Dean 😀

       2. “Dean has always been “protected” by the writers. He has always been given the opportunity to explain any of his mistakes or questionable decisions. That is when he is allowed to make questionable decisions. When given a similar situation with Sam in the Cage and Dean settling down. They made sure to have Dean say he was still looking for a way to get Sam out. They gave a poignant montage comparing his old life with Sam and his new life with Lisa to show how much he was suffering. How you possibly blame him for trying to capture a little happiness while continuing to look? Or even this season, when he play that hurtful trick on Sam in Citizen Fang. They had him explain to Sam why they did it and admit it was wrong to Charlie and show contrition. While Sam was given no reason for why he did something completely out of character which now as you say is canon.

          Not that I want them to give up explaining Dean’s actions (although explaining Sam’s would be nice too), but I do think it shows that this character is much more protected in the writer’s room than any other character on the show.”

          I couldn’t disagree more with this statement. As regards the brother interactions, IMO, Sam’s transgressions have been swept under the carpet consistently since the early days of the show. There is always a reason for him not to own them-even Dean, the character himself, is used to accomplish this-no chick flick moments(unless the writers want them at that time) is their usual plot device for this. So over it. I want to see Sam held accountable for often “guilting” Dean into accepting the blame for Sam’s own miscues; and for the emotional blackmail of often using Dean’s abandonment issues against him to get Dean to bury his feelings on hurtful things that Sam has done to Dean. These are things that we have clearly seen Sam display time and time again, IMO. I’m tired of Sam skating away and never owning the things that he needs to change to make the relationship better-things that, IMO, they’ve clearly been SHOWING us about Sam since early in the series.

          Reply

          1. Probably getting to off topic now so I’ll be brief just to say. I’ve heard from some Dean fans time and again how Sam ALWAYS blamed Dean for his mistakes and never took responsibility. Fallen Idols is the only time Sam in anyway linked his behavior to Dean’s and even then he stated explicitly that it wasn’t Dean’s fault, just his own (I’ll admit childish) reaction to Dean’s bossiness. It wasn’t explained well (another example), I agree, but that is the ONLY time I can think of. And he did apologizes and express regret throughout S5, although it obviously wasn’t enough for many.

             As for being held accountable, if spending 180 years being horrifically tortured wasn’t enough accountability I’m not sure what could be. So I feel we will just have to agree on a few points for Dean and disagree completely and utterly on Sam.

             Reply

       3. I think that Dean will have a big role next season if only by default. TFW is together again sort of. Sam is damaged. Cas and Crowley are probably both human and not themselves. Kevin is an emotional teenager. Dean is the only one operating at full guns blazing. All season 8 Dean was in charge. He made every decision about the trials. So I want his leadership continued but also a lot of BAMF hunter/warrior. After the second half of 8, however I am wary that he will be stuck caretaking.
          Yes it is part of his character, but it is a trait not a story. It is a waste of the character.

          My personal opinion is that the trials were a red herring and the meat of the season was intended to be personal growth for the brothers. The trials were used to remove Sam’ s demon taint and give him an opportunity for self reflection in preparation for confession. Dean’ s growth resulted from his stint in Purgatory. So I have made peace with a lot of the decisions that were made in 8. I hate it when Dean is dumbed down for comic effect and infodumping. I think that they grossly overplayed the caretaker, nursemade. No more of that and please can Sam act his age?! I really think that they were so concerned with Sam’ s human redemption arc, and creating showpieces for Charlie and others that they forgot Dean needed a story arc for the second half of the season. It’s pretty shocking for a lead to not have any sort of arc, especially since they had PTSD there to be exploited.

          Next season would seem to be a great opportunity to use a lot of Dean’ s abandoned backstory. Dean and Cas storylines are obvious. I would like to see his angelic accolades, servant if hesven, righteous man, Michael’s sword, to factor in somehow. Then there is The End AU which we may be hurtling towards with a very different Dean in the leadership role, and potentially different problems unless we get a cage breaching.

          So there is a lot if potential but this is tempered with deep disappointment that Dean sermed very much an afterthought in much of season 8.

          Reply

       4. I think that Dean will have a big role next season if only by default. TFW is together again sort of. Sam is damaged. Cas and Crowley are probably both human and not themselves. Kevin is an emotional teenager. Dean is the only one operating at full guns blazing. All season 8 Dean was in charge. He made every decision about the trials. So I want his leadership continued but also a lot of BAMF hunter/warrior. After the second half of 8, however I am wary that he will be stuck caretaking.
          Yes it is part of his character, but it is a trait not a story. It is a waste of the character.

          My personal opinion is that the trials were a red herring and the meat of the season was intended to be personal growth for the brothers. The trials were used to remove Sam’ s demon taint and give him an opportunity for self reflection in preparation for confession. Dean’ s growth resulted from his stint in Purgatory. So I have made peace with a lot of the decisions that were made in 8. I hate it when Dean is dumbed down for comic effect and infodumping. I think that they grossly overplayed the caretaker, nursemade. No more of that and please can Sam act his age?! I really think that they were so concerned with Sam’ s human redemption arc, and creating showpieces for Charlie and others that they forgot Dean needed a story arc for the second half of the season. It’s pretty shocking for a lead to not have any sort of arc, especially since they had PTSD there to be exploited.

          Next season would seem to be a great opportunity to use a lot of Dean’ s abandoned backstory. Dean and Cas storylines are obvious. I would like to see his angelic accolades, servant if hesven, righteous man, Michael’s sword, to factor in somehow. Then there is The End AU which we may be hurtling towards with a very different Dean in the leadership role, and potentially different problems unless we get a cage breaching.

          So there is a lot if potential but this is tempered with deep disappointment that Dean sermed very much an afterthought in much of season 8.

          Reply

20. Hi Alice

    How about also having a thread where we get to discuss what we want from Supernatural Season 9 as a whole? I’m a Supernatural-girl first rather than a Sam or Dean-girl. I love Dean, Sam and most of the supporting characters too.

    OK so I’m a Sam-girl second, but that doesn’t mean I don’t get annoyed when they don’t do Dean’s character justice. So I want to hold out a hand in solidarity to all the Deanfans. I’m disappointed in the writers too 🙂

    Most of what I hope (not expect) to get from Season 9 is more consistency with the storyarcs and characterisation. The actors and characters all deserve better. And yes, it is time Dean got the mytharc!

    Reply

    1. That’s a great suggestion. We just finished looking at Sam and Dean, and we are going to do in a few weeks a look at season 8 as a whole. I suppose that’s when I was going to consider opening that discussion. Plus, we’re getting some spoilers about S9 very soon, so I figured those should come out first. I will have a thread open though.

       Reply

21. Ugh….Okay, creeping out on my fragile limb…..

    Dean – More mytharc
    Dean – Less Florence Nightingale/Household Maid
    Dean – Waahh

    Sam – More point of view.
    Sam – More interaction with guest stars
    Sam – Waahh

    What would I like to see?

    And sorry…. I went on a bit of a rant here…..more so about the show then Dean.

    I don’t want to see sick Sam wearing a blanket and Dean bearing a tray, waving a thermometer about.
    (Okay, yeah, if your brother has, what was it again? 107 degree fever, dump his ass in a tub of ice off screen and move on to the next scene. Leave it there and go forward.)

    Move along, move along……Hmm, what kind of scene could replace that……um, domesticated……?

    Well, we really have no idea how they, um, earn money any longer, so how about a scene of hustling pool or chilling out in a BAR, not some yuppie coffee cafe, and oh hey, I dunno, a good ole fist fight.

    Or hey, dig a grave, hike through the woods, dive into a lake or jump into a pool….to save someone!!
    Oooh, oooh, jump a fence, scale a wall, crawl through a window, slide down a roof, foot chase, car chase, blow something up, shoot someone or something, hell, when was the last time we saw either of them load a gun!?

    I would like to see less interview/talk scenes and see more action or plot or action or plot…….

    Enough with Sam this, Sam that, Dean did, Dean didn’t, he should have, why didn’t he….blah, blah, blah,

    I want kick-ass, bad-ass, wise-cracking Dean driving/fighting/hunting with a Sam who is not pouting or sulking or sick or under the influence.

    Explore this Men Of Legend and build on it.

    I guess I differ from most…I don’t want Dean to have his own storyline, (Sam neither) an actual storyline yes, but….I want the show to have a well-balanced, thought-out, planned SEASON of 23 episodes with a mixture of horror, humor, action, mystery, suspense and intrigue.

    Oh, and please, someone PLEASE tell me…..(I do love me a greasy Dean tinkering underneath the car Huh? Huh?)….does the car take leaded or unleaded gas? It should take leaded, but Dean rebuilt it, so, maybe it doesn’t…….how about they bicker, yes bicker, (not fight ) over having to stop to purchase lead for the gas tank?

    Reply

    1. I think it is humorous how that tray thing bugs people so much. I think Dean was being pretty smart!! Why make more than one trip from the kitchen when you can get it all out on a tray. If there was a tray there and you had a glass, a bowl (or plate) a napkin and silverware wouldn’t you grab the tray? 🙂

       Reply

       1. Maybe it’s the idea that Dean would bring anyone a napkin. 😆 I think it’s because when we were little and my brother used to bring food out to me, it was cup in one hand, plate in the other, silverware plopped on the plate–and we had trays. It would less time to just plop the spoon in the bowl/stick the fork in the meat and carry it in. Dean doesn’t seem like the type to mess with it, either, hence the OTT care-taker.

          Reply

          1. See what bugs me is THIS is what the Dean fandom has to discuss going into S9. Compare this to what fans of any other character have to discuss and THEN tell me that Dean has a bonafide sl set-up(again, like every other character on this show-even part-time and recurring ones!) going into S9.

             And Dean being the “glue” that holds everyone and everything together should be acknowledged by all the other characters through dialogues(meaning the writers have to write it and have it in their scripts), if that is indeed supposed to be Dean’s “storyline”-and sorry, for me that seems more like a character trait, than a genuine storyline-now if they showed this by making him say, the general/leader of an angel army-that might work as a genuine storyline for me.

             Reply

             1. Well the tray thing is what a portion of the Dean fandom chooses to fixate on, that is true.

                I truly hope that one episode next season Dean is fixing HIMSELF food and tries to manipulate it from the kitchen to the central area (which is probably quite a distance) WITHOUT a tray and we get a big ol humerous pratfall and dishes everywhere. Maybe it will be a result of Castiel trying to be helpful, since we know Castiel is clumsy in domesticated / shop related circumstances.

                I wonder can Castiel use a tray?

             2. Perhaps you could help fans steer their focus towards more positive and relevant discussion, elif. As we are able to speculate at least a little about the personal storylines Castiel and Sam will be facing at the beginning of the season, what do you see as a possible storyline show set up for Dean to start S9?

             3. LOL Just Saying I don’t see me steering anyone anywhere. Everyone has their own fixed views and no amount of discussion is going to make any difference to what people think.But if you want to work on a more positive and relevant discussion go for it 🙂 My main thought on it is mostly we could all stop making out that our less favorite character has a secret mission to destroy our favorite character but other than that…

                Anyway, to answer your question, and this is just MY opinion obviously. I see that in Season 9 we will get the fundamentals of what we had in Season 8.
                Dean will continue to have complex and interesting interactions with various characters who have become central to the show. He will continue to develop his friendship with Charlie (which will be adorable) with Benny (which will be very bro and blood brotherly) and with Castiel (which will have loads of angst and, I am 99.9% sure, no kissing). He may also become friends with Kevin (I doubt it) and Garth (‘balls’).
                We will understand his motives for everything he does and so be able to sympathize with him when he does things that might from another person be considered bad.
                Dean will also get the angel arc which will of course NOT fizzle out the way the way the Hell arc did since we need to offload the angels back where they came from. Almost all the decisions he makes to do with the angel arc will work out.
                Occasionally he may have to manipulate a tray, cook, wash dishes and do laundry and whether we get to see that on screen or not will be in the lap of the gods.
                He will worry about Sam.
                At all times he will look thoroughly handsome.
                There may be wisecracks and other Dean type stuff.

                I think this would be a very excellent way to run Dean’s half of the show next season.

                Since you bring up Sam and Castiel’s storylines, yes Castiel should have an interesting arc this season and I look forward to it. However there must be some spoilers going around that I missed regarding Sam because all that I have heard is that he will be sick and heartbroken at least at the beginning of the season and I have seen no hints that he will be any less isolated as the season progresses. So my hope for Sam this season is that he gets subtitles. 🙂

             4. [quote]My main thought on it is mostly we could all stop making out that our less favorite character has a secret mission to destroy our favorite character but other than that…[/quote]

                Boo-yah! *high fives eilf*

                *Skitters away*

             5. *hollars to Bamboo’s disappearing back* Thanks Bamboo, right back at ya!

             6. [quote]However there must be some spoilers going around that I missed regarding Sam because all that I have heard is that he will be sick [/quote]

                And how he “bounces back from the sickness will be a real spoiler”.

                Meaning IMO he will either be an angel or half-angel or at least have a connection with Metatron. I assume he will be getting new superpowers and if anyone other than Cas gets the angel arc, it will be thus Sam.

                Dean has a 0,000001 % chance of getting a tie to the mytharc, let alone with the angels this year.

                He will look more ludicrous as “protector and caretaker” to a newly superpowered semi-angel but he was superflouus for most of the episodes in the back half of Season 8 so this is no reason not to continue with it.

                My guess is his role will be mainly comic relief with some bouts of “aww, look at the sidekick, ain`t he cute, how he tries but noone really needs or wants his help?”..

             7. [quote]we could all stop making out that our less favorite character has a secret mission to destroy our favorite character[/quote]
                Ah, the voice of reason! Yay! 😀

                Also, I think it might be an idea not to judge our boys too harshly on their [lack of] communications skills. After all, while we were all being raised to treat each other politely, they were training hard to save our asses instead 🙂

             8. Oh, now, don’t sell yourself short, elif. I’ve gained from the discussions I’ve been having lately, and I have been able to see things in a new way at times. Not all conversations, of course—sometimes a conversation just refines and reinforces what you already thought. But I’ve read some thought-provoking posts here that have made me see things in new ways. I think dismissing conversations as “Well, no one’s going to change their minds so it’s not worth talking about” is pretty much a self-fulfilling prophecy, don’t you? So by that token, I’m glad you decided to take my question seriously.

                As for your comment about everyone trying to realize that their less favorite is not out to destroy their favorite, from your keyboard to Chuck’s ears. On the other hand, I would feel the need to say that pointing out where a character may have made mistakes is not always calling that character the destroyer of worlds. Conversation can reveal a poster’s true intentions, don’t you think? But enough of that. Let’s look at S9.

                I can get behind Dean having complex interactions with various characters. I hope for this for Sam as well. While not a storyline, that has been valuable in developing Dean’s character, so I hope it continues and Sam is allowed to join in more often.

                Agreed, being able to understand Dean’s motives and sympathize with his actions is always important. While not a storyline, it is essential for a character. Now, does it work on all fans? Obviously not, but it certainly helps. This is again a sentiment I will hope carries over to Sam as well.

                Dean being allowed to have an active role in the angel trials would be very nice. I’m not sure all of his choices have to work out necessarily, but I think having him serve as more than a helper is important. Being a principle player means making mistakes sometimes, and I have no doubt that he will be called out on them. Being able to keep going in the face of crippling guilt and long odds is a specialty of Dean’s, though, don’t you agree?

                While I wouldn’t mind seeing Dean cook again, I certainly hope no trays are involved. Dean doing domestic tasks is fine by me, as long as it’s not permanently in the context of super!care-taker as his only role Dean.

                Naturally Dean will worry about Sam. This is not a storyline as much as a personality trait. In terms of storyline, I’m hoping Dean will be engaging in one that allows Sam to do some worrying as well.

                I certainly would be happy to see Dean wise-cracking and being Dean. That was one thing I can definitely say I appreciated from this season.

                I’d prefer if there weren’t a Sam half and a Dean half of the show next season—their stories could and should run concurrently, don’t you think?

                I do think Castiel has been set up to have an interesting storyline next season. The Comic Con TV Guide referred to Sam getting over his illness rather quickly, and the means of which it happens is a spoiler. Given show’s past record, I think it’s possible to say speculate that it will be through supernatural means, as show laid the foundation for the trials changing Sam on a cellular level. So to me, that means that Sam is going to have something going on right out of the gate. Probably another “What’s happening/wrong with Sam?”, but that’s show’s pattern. While subtitles would be helpful if Sam’s POV issues continue, I certainly share your hope that he becomes less isolated and more vocal in S9.

             9. [quote] I think dismissing conversations as “Well, no one’s going to change their minds so it’s not worth talking about” is pretty much a self-fulfilling prophecy, don’t you? So by that token, I’m glad you decided to take my question seriously.[/quote]

                Thanks for asking for my opinion, it is always nice to be asked what you think about things 🙂 Enjoy the discussions!

             10. [quote]See what bugs me is THIS is what the Dean fandom has to discuss going into S9. Compare this to what fans of any other character have to discuss and THEN tell me that Dean has a bonafide sl set-up(again, like every other character on this show-even part-time and recurring ones!) going into S9..[/quote]

                 I think the trouble is that people AREN`T supposed to be interested in Dean. Not for himself. Not as an individual character.

                 The narrative drives the interest towards Sam mainly, Cas secondly, then outside people like Kevin, Crowley, Charlie etc.

                 Dean is…honestly more like an object. A magnifying glass maybe to bring those characters into greater focus. Or a voice-over narrator for their stories.

                 The writing isn`t geared to make the audience interested in the magnifying glass or the narrator. And people doing so regardless are out of luck.

                 From interview responses, to be honest, I mostly get the writers/producers being annoyed when they have to talk about the Dean-character. If not specifically prompted, he will not get talked about at all, other than in the token role of minor supporting cast. If prompted, the answer usually is “oh, him, well, he will be around, isn`t that enough?”

       2. Leah, 😀
          Love you!

          Reply

    2. “Well, we really have no idea how they, um, earn money any longer, so how about a scene of hustling pool or chilling out in a BAR, not some yuppie coffee cafe, and oh hey, I dunno, a good ole fist fight.

       Or hey, dig a grave, hike through the woods, dive into a lake or jump into a pool….to save someone!!
       Oooh, oooh, jump a fence, scale a wall, crawl through a window, slide down a roof, foot chase, car chase, blow something up, shoot someone or something, hell, when was the last time we saw either of them load a gun!?

       I would like to see less interview/talk scenes and see more action or plot or action or plot…….

       Enough with Sam this, Sam that, Dean did, Dean didn’t, he should have, why didn’t he….blah, blah, blah,

       I want kick-ass, bad-ass, wise-cracking Dean driving/fightin g/hunting with a Sam who is not pouting or sulking or sick or under the influence.

       Explore this Men Of Legend and build on it.

       I guess I differ from most…I don’t want Dean to have his own storyline, (Sam neither) an actual storyline yes, but….I want the show to have a well-balanced, thought-out, planned SEASON of 23 episodes with a mixture of horror, humor, action, mystery, suspense and intrigue.

       Oh, and please, someone PLEASE tell me…..(I do love me a greasy Dean tinkering underneath the car Huh? Huh?)….does the car take leaded or unleaded gas? It should take leaded, but Dean rebuilt it, so, maybe it doesn’t…….h ow about they bicker, yes bicker, (not fight ) over having to stop to purchase lead for the gas tank?”

       Agree 100% with this SheyRicci. An ideal season and one that reminds me of seasons 1, 2 and 3. (My favourites) 😉

       Reply

22. SheyRicci and Bevie – now that would be the ultimate perfect season!

    Reply

23. I might be one of the few who is perfectly happy with how Dean is progressing (but maybe that’s just me…I’ve never worried too much about who has the best or most important storyline through the series). But personally, I think Dean is the glue that holds everything together and has been since the series started. I thought he was allowed to really grow in S8, esp after Purgatory changed him…for the better. He finally discovered who he really was and accepted it.

    I want to see him continue to be the pain in the ass big brother and to keep Sam on his feet. The reason Season 7 wasn’t as good as other seasons, (in my mind) is that it lacked a lot of that the boys really needing and looking after each other (although it started off great with Hello, Cruel World).

    Dean learned and grew in S8 more than in any other season and I’d like to see that continue, esp with what is obviously going to be some type of angel storyline for the year.

    One thing I wonder about and might like to see if Kevin having a bit of an issue with Dean about stopping Sam from closing off Hell. I mean, after all Kevin put himself through and after all he lost….you’d think there’d be a bit of resentment that the boys didn’t finish the job, even if the end result would have been Sam’s death. So, I’d like to see a bit of contention between those 2 because of that particular issue.

    Anyway, I really enjoyed where they took Dean in S8, bringing him out of his alcoholic/depression funk and letting him finally realize what he is.

    Oh and I certainly do want to see him continue his hugging trend. He was a huggin’ fool last year! Ha!

    And of course, like everyone else, I really want to see more of the Men of Letters storyline (which I’m sure we’ll see) and how both boys dig into it.

    Great to read everyone’s comments and take on Dean, etc. Bring on Season 9!

    Reply

24. My expectations or hopes for Dean in season 9. Every year I’ve said I wanted Dean to stop saying “I’m tired. It’s ok for me to die.” Or “I just don’t care” (paraphrasing). So season 8 delivered for me, I want more of that Dean: fighter, hunter, protector. Sure, I’d like him to realize that he “occasionally” doesn’t listen or gets angry when someone (I mean anyone) doesn’t agree with him, but that’s Dean.

    Reply

25. Simply put,I want them to build on the ending that season 8 set up,where it was all about family.That’s what I think this show is always been about you know?For the last few seasons,it feels like everyone is expendable,and someone HAS to die for the greater good,I wanna see Dean and Sam to become “Brothers”(In Arms) again,and possibly add Castiel and Charlie to fill in the backseat of the Impala.The building block of the Winchester Family 🙂

    Reply

26. Eilf (No.94)
    [quote]At all times he will look thoroughly handsome.[/quote]
    AND with long hair Eilf, Looong luscious hair (after all barber shops aren’t a dime a dozen anymore).

    Also I would like to see some explanation about the squeaking Impala doors. I swear have the men NOT heard of Q20?

    Reply

27. Eilf (ps)
    I cannot begin imagine Dean walking into a modern day hair salon (other than investigating of COURSE)

    Reply

28. Read on another website the other day that it wasn’t Dean that broke Naomi’s hold on Cas, it was the angel tablet. The poster says that this is confirmed by Naomi herself in a later ep. For the life of me I can’t validate this. Can anyone elucidate?

    Reply

29. Hi Kaz, Is that like WD40 here (spray squeak lube stuff)? 🙂 I don’t remember who on the show said it, but they said that some of the Impala noises were added to give her character. Jensen has said she does make a few noises of her own. If she doesn’t already make door noises I am sure they add them : As for who broke Naomi’s hold, I took that scene to mean that Dean got through to Cas but that the tablet also started influencing Cas at the same time. So how much was Dean and how much was the tablet’s influence? Not sure. Would like to hear others opinions!

    Reply

30. (No.106) Hey Leah, long time no chat. Clearly WD40 = Q20 but I must admit I think I would be bummed if I never heard that sound anymore.

    Re Naomi’s hold. If it wasn’t Cas that broke Naomi’s hold and it was the angel tablet then that implies Metatron saved Dean. But to what purpose I wonder, it doesn’t make sense.

    Also although I know this doesn’t fall under this thread but I am having the devil’s own job with the website at the moment, so don’t want to risk trying another thread. I would love to hear some explanation about Azazil’s conversation with Dean way back in season 3 (I think) where he says something to the effect of how sure Dean is that the Sam that came back was 100% Sam. Now Sam already had all the psychic crap, and wasn’t addicted to the power and demon blood at that point, so I would love to know whether this was just Azazil messing with Dean’s head (as Bobby suggests) or whether this was just foreshadowing.

    Reply

31. [quote]Read on another website the other day that it wasn’t Dean that broke Naomi’s hold on Cas, it was the angel tablet. The poster says that this is confirmed by Naomi herself in a later ep. For the life of me I can’t validate this. Can anyone elucidate?[/quote]

    It was Crowley that said it in The Great Escapist

    CROWLEY: I know, Cas. I know. Luckily, I don’t believe you’ll have to. I’ve been getting regular updates from my expensive friend here. Naomi should have caught you out of the gate, seeing as lately she’s been knuckles-deep in that melon of yours. She thinks that your touching the tablet has broken her spell over you, hmm?

    CASTIEL The tablets weren’t meant for the angels, and they weren’t meant for you.

    CROWLEY She’s got a lot on her plate, so you can’t fault her for missing it. I was thinking to myself, “self, if Cas got away from her by touching the tablet, why would he ever stop touching the tablet?” And then I thought to myself, “self… he hasn’t stopped touching the tablet, now has he?”

    Reply

32. Ha Kaz, I agree that if they ever opened the doors and they were silent it would just be wrong somehow.

    My opinion on the “100% Sam” thing was that Azazel was messing with Dean. I am not sure if he was referring to wee Sam ingesting his blood but I think that he was trying to make Dean doubt Sam’s humanness more than anything. Dean’s dad had already planted worries at that point, that he might have to kill his brother.

    Did you ever see the response I left you about the release date of the DVD? Are you still coming over for the race? You should come over to the cbox and chat sometime. You might want to let Alice know of any problems you are having with the site. 🙂

    Reply

33. [quote]Hi Kaz, Is that like WD40 here (spray squeak lube stuff)? 🙂 I don’t remember who on the show said it, but they said that some of the Impala noises were added to give her character. Jensen has said she does make a few noises of her own. If she doesn’t already make door noises I am sure they add them :[/quote]
    Someone asked Jensen about this and if I remember rightly he said that the car doors originally squeaked (and as you can see in the early episodes the microphones for the guys, when they are in the Impala, are clearly visible and right beside the doors, so they would pick up any noise from them. After one of the major repairs to the car the people fixed the doors so they didn’t squeak and the quiet unnerved everybody so they had to put the squeak back in (not sure how that works).
    [quote]As for who broke Naomi’s hold, I took that scene to mean that Dean got through to Cas but that the tablet also started influencing Cas at the same time. So how much was Dean and how much was the tablet’s influence? Not sure. Would like to hear others opinions![/quote]
    I would say the instruction from Naomi stopped being ‘kill Dean’ and moved onto ‘Get the tablet’ . By then Dean had gotten through to Castiel enough to allow him to prioritise the second instruction (because he was still mostly under Naomi’s power) – he could get the tablet without killing Dean, it was less of a conflict. Then it was picking up the tablet that broke the link with Naomi.
    There isn’t really any way of knowing what decision he made (while under her power) about Naomi’s last instruction “You have to choose, Castiel — us or them.” except that when he got his own will back he chose not to obey either of them. Which could have been an interesting character point for him but the show chose not to go there instead reverting to the same old trope of ‘look what happens when you don’t listen to Dean’.

    Reply

34. Leah (109)
    I certainly did see the response re the DVD and yes I am running the NY marathon (that is if weather cooperates, last year it was flooded), so will buy my copy over there. Thanks so much for info, November suddenly just seems around the corner. Cbox? would love come over to the cbox and chat, but not sure what it is (ps but my age is showing 🙂 )

    Reply

35. Kaz, at the top left of the home page there a box. click on cbox. it will take you there. Put in name and message. Click go. Easy!

    Reply