Let’s Discuss: Sam and Dean’s Flashbacks
By request, I’m opening up a new “Let’s Discuss†thread. Primarily, the flashbacks. Both Sam and Dean’s, although Sam’s are certainly raising some questions right now.
Are they real? Imagined? Distorted? Manipulated by angels? Relevant to a larger story in the works, or do we accept them for what they are?
Here’s just a small set of possible things to discuss…
- The lighting of these scenes. They’re awfully bright. Dean’s are more washed out, while Sam’s have a halo type quality. What is this supposed to represent?
- What clues have you noticed that tells you these flashbacks are real or not?
- What are these flashbacks telling you about the characters?
- What do you think about Amelia and Benny?
- Are these flashbacks doing any justice to the story?
As with all other Let’s Discuss articles, this is a free zone and not subject to the new commenting rules for episode threads. However, please be aware of the usual rules. No name calling, no putting words in other people’s mouths, be respectful… It all can be found here.
Okay, discuss away!

Alice Jester is the founder, editor-in-chief, head writer, programmer, web designer, site administrator, marketer, and moderator for The Winchester Family Business. She is a 30 year IT applications and database expert with a penchant for creative and freelance writing in her spare (ha!!) time. That’s on top of being a wife, mother of two active kids, and four loving (aka needy) pets.
Well I was about to give my opinions on Sam’s flashbacks, but Kristen just gave spoilers [url]http://www.eonline.com/news/367217/spoiler-chat-scoop-on-glee-supernatural-american-horror-story-parks-and-rec-and-more[/url] about Sam and Amelia that leave contradict my theories and that have made me decide that this show is no longer Supernatural and I’m not certain it is the type of show that I would watch if I didn’t have good memories of previous season. I’m going to have to regroup and see what I can salvage of this mess.
Yay, love triangle (sarcasm) something which i see in every show or movie now.I am curious how supernatural can support a love triangle (of sorts). About the flash backs for Sam i really did not understand what were Sam’s triggers for the flashbacks.
Oh, what fun it will be watching Sam fight for the love of the horrible Amelia. I can’t wait!!!!!
That sounds bloody awful and nothing I would EVER expect to see on what used to be my favorite show. Ugh . . . let’s just hope Carver remembers this is [i]Supernatural [/i]not [i]Being Human[/i].
Well Percysowner, you gotta remember that sometime the spoilers are just that, “spoilers”. It can go several ways and since Sam is back with Dean….I would hazard a guess (and we’ll have to see how close I am) that Amelia went back to Don (after all she was still married to him). we will have to see.
[quote]Well Percysowner, you gotta remember that sometime the spoilers are just that, “spoilers”. It can go several ways and since Sam is back with Dean….I would hazard a guess (and we’ll have to see how close I am) that Amelia went back to Don (after all she was still married to him). we will have to see.[/quote]
I´m just going to ignore that, until it´s confirmed by someone more reliable than “someone who knows someone”
Sounds to me more like writing anything, before writing nothing at all.
If that’s what Sam’s “Normal” life story is about this season, I will be INCREDIBLY disappointed in the writers, and may have to spend my evenings after each Supernatural episode hugging a white porcelain bowl while I spew!
(Sorry gang, but that is just not what Supernatural is all about, for me)
Ok… having NOW read the link involved in this… (Ya, I know, [b]stupid[/b], st50…..get the whole story before you react, ok?)
I don’t think there’s NECESSARILY anything more to this than what we’ve already got.
Don’s being alive ALREADY makes it “a love triangle of sorts”. Nothing says they’re expanding on this – they DO have to address his return in the next flashback, and I am holding to the idea that there’s nothing more to it.. Sam’s cozy little home isn’t so cozy anymore. Hope they didn’t get a huge mortgage!
On the other hand, Amelia may in fact be real, but Sam can still be mis-remembering a lot of this stuff.
🙂
Retreating to shallowland!
HA-thats funny st50. I’m not one to jump on the spoiler-panic bandwagon as a rule but before I went to the link I immediately got irked. Thought “is that really the direction they are going?!!” After having read it I relaxed a bit. There are numerous ways this can go, but a love triangle is the worst of all possible scenarios IMO. Spewing averted, for now at least. 🙂
[quote] Spewing averted, for now at least. :-)[/quote]
🙂 Spewing averted. Thank Chuck!
I agree Leah, the spoiler reads like tripe! It’s so vague that it can be construed as ANYTHING so to me, that means that it’s nothing. I remember EK manipulating the fans about the Ruby character in season 4, introducing her as a ‘love interest’ for Sam solely for the purpose of watching the fans implode. He got a real kick out of doing stuff like that and I wouldn’t find it too far off to suppose that JC is doing the same. In a strange way Ruby WAS a love interest of sorts, but not by any normal definition. I suspect the same is true here; if we are going to get a love triangle, it will be a Supernatural love triangle, meaning jacked up and bizarre and suitably outside the box; at least that’s what I am expecting.
E, I would LOVE it if they were toying with the fans. If it’s not “jacked up and bizarre” I would be highly disappointed. At the very least I hope there is some kind of satisfying payoff for fans who are expecting something compelling. Myself, so far I am enjoying the ride.
I dont think they are toying with people Jeremy isnt Eric . They wanted to give Sam something normal move him away from a Supernatural problem to a human one. The spoiler is more than likely close to the truth.
The problem is people needed to buy into Sam and Amelia’s relationship and alot havent throwing a third party in is not really going to change that . I think Sam’s problem will be a very human based one.
Sharon, you may be right but I can hope it turns out to more interesting than a shakey relationship. Wishful thinking maybe.
to BE more…
True Sharon, JC isn’t EK, but JC is known in the business as a master plotter and the shout outs to past seasons has been deliberate and detailed. JC has said numerous times that this season is about ‘perception,’ pretty much telling us fans from the get go that he will be manipulating us. How and in what ways remains to be seen, but there is nothing about that spoiler that I intend to take seriously. It comes across as fan pandering.
They also stated they wanted to give Sam normal a normal problem now I understand perception has become the by word this season and with Sam they very well could go ‘ta da’ or what we are getting with Sam is exactly that.
I know Kirsten’s reputation with spoilers but I do believe with what they have been doing with Sam there is a element of truth to it but we shall see .
There have been a few people (a lot?) saying that the FBs are messy and seem to be awkwardly placed. It seems like there could be two reasons for that (apart from bad storytelling and I refuse to believe that until it is conclusively proved :D). If you look at Lost that show was full of FBs and they worked. That was because they were objective for the most point, the story was telling you what happened using visuals – it didn’t matter what the person SAID, the FB was the truth.
So why not use it in this case? Because all these flashbacks are subjective – each person is remembering what they think happened. So from a storytelling point I think that is why they have gone with that storytelling style. And it looks clunky because everyone has to stare off into space to show it is them thinking (yeah, it’s clunky).
Personally I am entertained by the idea that it all might be a storyline that Sam has invented in his head, from hearing soap operas on the tv while lying in a coma in a hospital bed (well it would be entertaining if it took a single episode to get there at least).
But there is another consideration, Sam’s FBs seem much more random than Deans – which seem to be more relevant to the current storyline and so they blend better – Sam just seems to fall into a daze anywhere, and he seems to be doing it more often. For example Sam’s first flashback, to his girlfriend(!) in the last episode, he was looking at a corpse when it hit – that might have been a reaction to something someone had just said, I don’t remember, but the visual was corpse = girlfriend/perfect life flashback (that might be deliberate of course after all his ‘perfect life’ IS dead). Could it be that whatever trauma he has is getting worse for some reason instead of better?
It could just be that he is worried about Amelia and the husband for some reason. Don is going to turn out to be unpleasant I should think.
[quote]There have been a few people (a lot?) saying that the FBs are messy and seem to be awkwardly placed. It seems like there could be two reasons for that (apart from bad storytelling and I refuse to believe that until it is conclusively proved :D). If you look at Lost that show was full of FBs and they worked. That was because they were objective for the most point, the story was telling you what happened using visuals – it didn’t matter what the person SAID, the FB was the truth.
So why not use it in this case? Because all these flashbacks are subjective – each person is remembering what they think happened. So from a storytelling point I think that is why they have gone with that storytelling style. And it looks clunky because everyone has to stare off into space to show it is them thinking (yeah, it’s clunky).
Personally I am entertained by the idea that it all might be a storyline that Sam has invented in his head, from hearing soap operas on the tv while lying in a coma in a hospital bed (well it would be entertaining if it took a single episode to get there at least).
But there is another consideration, Sam’s FBs seem much more random than Deans – which seem to be more relevant to the current storyline and so they blend better – Sam just seems to fall into a daze anywhere, and he seems to be doing it more often. For example Sam’s first flashback, to his girlfriend(!) in the last episode, he was looking at a corpse when it hit – that might have been a reaction to something someone had just said, I don’t remember, but the visual was corpse = girlfriend/perfect life flashback (that might be deliberate of course after all his ‘perfect life’ IS dead). Could it be that whatever trauma he has is getting worse for some reason instead of better?
It could just be that he is worried about Amelia and the husband for some reason. Don is going to turn out to be unpleasant I should think.[/quote]
Cas said the corpse had a bladder Infection 😆
No, actually Dean said, it was the cheating husband living a lie and it came back, to bite him in the ass.
In the last episode it was blatantly obvious, but we would have to look at earlier episodes to see what the triggers were there.
I will have to sit down and write it all up 😉
I don’t know if it plays into the perception theme, but they were wrong about the husband cheating: he was in a consensual open marriage with his wife’s full awareness, so he wasn’t living a lie, and didn’t get bitten in the ass by it. I wonder if that misperception is meant to match up with Sam’s experience, since, after all, it’s not like he and Amelia were consciously cheating on her husband.
😮 – I totally don’t want to think about what Sam’s flashback would have been like if it was in reaction to what Cas said …
Wouldn’t Sam then flashback to his VD commercial??? lol
On the upside, THANK YOU Alice, for the lovely Tshirt picture to start off this thread. 😆
If nothing else, I will be dizzy before ever getting in to all the theories…. I may have to lie down. (Move over, Sam. 😳 )
Not sure whether this belongs here or on the “What’s happening” thread, or on the episode review thread – I’m SO CONFUSED! 😮 –
But I really loved the exchange between the cop and Sam…
Cop: “So do you chase the crazy or does the crazy chase you?”
Sam: “Depends on the day”
That could really play into the theory that Sam is still hallucinating (whether or not Amelia is real)….. 😉
My immediate reaction to the revelation that Don is alive in the FBs was “Really? Really? No, Show, really?”. On some level I hope undead Don is actually a member of the undead, because that would throw some intensity into Sam’s flashbacks.
Dean’s FBs have two advantages over Sam’s. First, there is a real life or death struggle going on that blends in with the theme of the show. Second, Dean’s FBs integrate better into the episode story. Eilf commented that Sam’s flashbacks are more frequent and have random triggers, and that’s also how it seems to me. That makes them disruptive to the flow of the episodes. Some of Sam’s flashbacks are so disconnected that they feel like overlap from another show.
Dean’s perception in FBs of Cas staying behind in Purgatory was incorrect, so it is quite possible that what Sam remembers is also in some ways incorrect. And his flashbacks remind me of Dean and Bobby’s dreamworlds in Season 3, with their over-staturated colors. Dean even had a picnic with girlfriend scene in his dreamscape. Sam could be building pieces of past experience into an odd, comforting delusion.
However, in the first episode of the season he left a woman in bed and a dog to join Dean, and he is checking up on a woman through electronic monitoring. These make it seem as though Amelia is not entirely a hallucination (though I would be more than okay with it if she were).
I am not a fan of these “Lost” style FBs for Supernatural. I keep thinking of Season 4, when Sam was telling Dean the story of his time one Earth while Dean was in Hell. Those flashbacks had content, and said a lot about Sam. And that was only one episode. I don’t feel like I’ve learned anything new about Sam in this series of FBs.
Sam’s flash back need to be chronological or atleast i should know which flashback happened after which .
I think that the confusing nature of Sam’s flashbacks are a direct correlation to Sam himself. He’s a confused mess, hence his flashbacks are as well, disorganized and seemingly triggered by various, but unrelated moments in the present day. I don’t mind at all that the story isn’t being told in a linear fashion. It’s up to the viewer to put the pieces together to create a whole; I just don’t thing we have all the pieces yet.
Maybe, someone in heaven resurrected Amelia’s husband to get Sam out of the normal and go back to hunt… if the whole thing is in real time.
Putting aside the content of the flashbacks for a moment, as narrative structures in Supernatural, I do not think they are working very well. Supernatural is (mostly) a horror show laced with mytharc and family matters. As such, its narrative depends on pacing and tension to create suspense and scares. The flashbacks do not contribute to the creation of tension. In fact, to me, the cut away to the flashbacks fracture the episode’s narrative to no purpose – the flashbacks don’t contribute to the building of dramatic tension in the ‘real time’ story and in some cases (Amelia, I’m looking at you) completely suck all forward momentum from the story.
To me, there are a couple of successful constructs for use of flashback; the first is to begin in real time with a character in peril, then flashback to how the person came to be in peril and eventually have real time catch up to the flashback so that the narrative moves forward. Second the character accomplishes something and the flashback fills in how it was accomplished. Third, the flashback takes the place of a character monologe – where the character ‘remembers’ what happened and information is provided to the audience. In all cases, the flashback should inform the real time story and/or the character.
Obviously, Supernatural is not utilizing the first example at all. And more’s the pity because I think the Purgatory sequences could have been effectively done that way. The Purgatory flashbacks are more along the lines of the second – Dean accomplished an exit from Purgatory: the flashback shows us how. Sam’s flashbacks are clearly the third type, which, to me, is the weakest of the three as a narrative construct.
As for content, I don’t think they’re doing very well in this regard either. The Purgatory flashbacks worked better. When used, they had more connection to the current story, but still bogged the forward momentum down.
To me, the Sam flashbacks don’t work at all. I get that Show is drawing a contrast between Dean’s Purgatory and Sam’s dollhouse, but it just Stops. The. Narrative. Dead. In. Its. Tracks everytime Sam drifts off.
The content of the Purgatory flashbacks is good, but I don’t think that presenting it as a flashback was completely successful.
The content of the Sam flashbacks — if I was watching a different show, it would be fine — but since I’m not watching a different show — its not fine. The story with Amelia pulls me out of the Supernatural universe as I ask myself WTF am I watching?
Long story short — the flashbacks really aren’t working for me and I hope we are done with them as of the Fall Finale.
I also hope that Amelia goes away with her not-dead hubby and we never, ever see or hear from her again. As I said earlier on another thread — Amelia can go live next door to Lisa & Ben.
[quote]Putting aside the content of the flashbacks for a moment, as narrative structures in Supernatural, I do not think they are working very well. Supernatural is (mostly) a horror show laced with mytharc and family matters. As such, its narrative depends on pacing and tension to create suspense and scares. The flashbacks do not contribute to the creation of tension. In fact, to me, the cut away to the flashbacks fracture the episode’s narrative to no purpose – the flashbacks don’t contribute to the building of dramatic tension in the ‘real time’ story and in some cases (Amelia, I’m looking at you) completely suck all forward momentum from the story.
To me, there are a couple of successful constructs for use of flashback; the first is to begin in real time with a character in peril, then flashback to how the person came to be in peril and eventually have real time catch up to the flashback so that the narrative moves forward. Second the character accomplishes something and the flashback fills in how it was accomplished. Third, the flashback takes the place of a character monologe – where the character ‘remembers’ what happened and information is provided to the audience. In all cases, the flashback should inform the real time story and/or the character.
Obviously, Supernatural is not utilizing the first example at all. And more’s the pity because I think the Purgatory sequences could have been effectively done that way. The Purgatory flashbacks are more along the lines of the second – Dean accomplished an exit from Purgatory: the flashback shows us how. Sam’s flashbacks are clearly the third type, which, to me, is the weakest of the three as a narrative construct.
As for content, I don’t think they’re doing very well in this regard either. The Purgatory flashbacks worked better. When used, they had more connection to the current story, but still bogged the forward momentum down.
To me, the Sam flashbacks don’t work at all. I get that Show is drawing a contrast between Dean’s Purgatory and Sam’s dollhouse, but it just Stops. The. Narrative. Dead. In. Its. Tracks everytime Sam drifts off.
The content of the Purgatory flashbacks is good, but I don’t think that presenting it as a flashback was completely successful.
The content of the Sam flashbacks — if I was watching a different show, it would be fine — but since I’m not watching a different show — its not fine. The story with Amelia pulls me out of the Supernatural universe as I ask myself WTF am I watching?
Long story short — the flashbacks really aren’t working for me and I hope we are done with them as of the Fall Finale.
I also hope that Amelia goes away with her not-dead hubby and we never, ever see or hear from her again. As I said earlier on another thread — Amelia can go live next door to Lisa & Ben.[/quote]
If Sam’s FBs are just that, no twist behind it, then I completely agree with you. I will despise them. That’s why I am grasping at straws here hoping for anything, any clue that may point out that there’s more to these FBs.
I will not be satisfied with the harlwquin-like drama that they cooked up for Sam’s storyline. Having Sam not looking for Dean just to have a Days of Our Lives rip off is gonna piss me off.
[b]Melanie[/b], thank you so much for reading my mind and then writing my thoughts in your comment 😆 You saved me from having to try and work out how to explain my discontent with the flashbacks in a coherent manner. Your description of the effect of the frequent flashbacks on the narrative structure of SPN this season is exactly how I feel about them too.
Also, I’m a bit fed up with lots of shots of Sam looking off into the distance (very soap opera-like) to signal “I am having a flashback now”. It’s clunky and I don’t think it fits with the style of acting that the Js have developed over their years as the brothers Winchester. I sometimes think that Jared is being asked to lay it on a bit thick when signalling an impending flashback, at times, he has a touch of the Joey Tribbiani “smell the fart” acting style about him (lighthearted comment folks, I’m just teasing 😉 )
Jensen’s flashback signalling scenes didn’t seem as forced to me, or maybe he has more experience of that particular acting trick given that he worked on a soap opera for a number of years. Or it could just be a way to signal that Dean is integrating his memories, of the year in Purgatory, into his daily life more successfully than Sam. Perhaps Sam’s memories are jarring and disconcerting Sam as much as they do the viewer. It’s hard to tell though because we’re given so little information regarding the inner emotional state of Sam this season :sigh: we don’t get a huge amount of info about Dean’s emotions either but somehow I feel that I know more about how Dean is feeling than I do about how Sam is feeling.
[quote] Perhaps Sam’s memories are jarring and disconcerting Sam as much as they do the viewer. It’s hard to tell though because we’re given so little information regarding the inner emotional state of Sam this season :sigh: we don’t get a huge amount of info about Dean’s emotions either but somehow I feel that I know more about how Dean is feeling than I do about how Sam is feeling.[/quote]
Ciar: I think, this has actually with the actual experience.
Dean´s is alot more straight forward and clear.
And i can very well imagine, and get a clear feeling, that it was a cleansing experience for him.
Throw out all the shit, that was holding you back, kind of thing.
Sam´s isn´t.
It´s muddled and twisted and layered and all kinds of…ugh…
Mushy…
and I think pretty much, that sums up their year apart pretty well.
Sam had no clear line of action (or line of thought), none whatsoever, and it let him adrift.
While Dean had anything but insecurities. Find Cas, Get to the portal, get out.
For Dean it´s a straight line again: this is his life, this is his calling, let´s go.
Sam, on the other hand does even have found solid ground yet.
[b]Fluffy[/b], I hadn’t thought about it in quite that way, it’s interesting to think of the brothers being at different stages from each other, emotionally, because of what happened during their year apart.
I suppose that because we’ve seen Sam tell Dean, forcefully, that he knows what he wants and that his year away from hunting has helped him to realise it, I assumed that Sam was as emotionally settled and stable as the persona he was showing Dean. Your reading of things, that Sam is not clear on what he did during that year and on what he wants for his future, makes Sam’s behaviour seem a little more intriguing.
[quote][b]Fluffy[/b], I hadn’t thought about it in quite that way, it’s interesting to think of the brothers being at different stages from each other, emotionally, because of what happened during their year apart.
I suppose that because we’ve seen Sam tell Dean, forcefully, that he knows what he wants and that his year away from hunting has helped him to realise it, I assumed that Sam was as emotionally settled and stable as the persona he was showing Dean. Your reading of things, that Sam is not clear on what he did during that year and on what he wants for his future, makes Sam’s behaviour seem a little more intriguing.[/quote]
I´m pretty sure, he lied.
Either in self defense, or to protect Dean.
It´s Sam… alright… a bit of both.
Letting Dean know, he´s not actually completely stable? With Dean fresh out of Purgatory… yeah… not bloody likely.
On the other hand, admitting, that you are swimming? With someone as battle ready as Dean at that moment?
Bad idea ^^
And Sam migth actually have wanted, exactly what he said.
Because it´s safe. It´s simple.
You don´t have to make alot of decision and nobody´s life depends on you.
If you are wounded and without orientation and kind of more than just a little helpless… wouldn´t that be exactly, what you would wish for?
I like that take on it — that Sam’s memories are jarring and disconcerting Sam as much as they do the viewer — I could live with that.
Fortunately after last night’s episode I think we’re done with flashbacks since Cas is back for Dean and Sam is seeing Amelia again.
I was thinking about why I dislike the Sam/Amelia storyline today — I’ve been thinking its mostly because its boring — but its not because its dull — I mean it is, especially compared to the action, suspense and horror -esque elements of SPN — its because I’m pretty sure the romance won’t work out, you know? So its kind of a pointless exercise to put poor Sammy through it. In fact, I don’t want the romance to work out. And where usually in the romantic situation I’d be rooting for Sam & Amelia and enjoying the journey — I just want it over — rip the bandage off, lance the blister, get it done.
And on acompletely shallow note — Sam’s entire s/l is a ‘love story’ and he’s not been shirtless once! What’s the point of that!!! 😀
[b]Melanie,[/b] tonight’s Sam and Amelia scene had shirtless!Sam 😆 😉 what a way to end things for that romance storyline (oh, I hope that Sam and Amelia’s storyline is finished!!)
The problem isn’t the use of FBs. Supernatural has used FBs fairly well before (i.e., AVSC, the Shtriga episode, ASS, IKWYDLS, Unforgiven, Dean’s FBs this year). The problem is Sam’s story. Unfortunately, Sam’s FBs fail on multiple levels, IMO.
First, [u][b]all [/b] [/u] of Sam’s FBs have been awkwardly placed thus far. They literally bring the show to a grinding halt and don’t flow or mesh w/the rest of the episode. As many have stated, the show will be moving along and then suddenly Sam is having an Amelia FB, which really has nothing to do anything. It’s awkward. I am not lying when I say my sister and I literally groaned each time we realized another Amelia FB was coming. A FB should further the story; so far, Sam’s don’t. That brings me to the second problem w/Sam’s FBs.
Let’s all be honest here . . . absolutely nothing is going on in Sam’s FBs. That is a problem. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have been utterly bored by almost all of his FBs. This week’s were the best of the lot, and that’s b/c of Amelia’s rude dad. He added another dynamic to Sam and Amelia who are pretty boring together. It doesn’t help that JP and LB have ZERO chemistry. When we do get a FB, it’s usually just another aspect of Sam’s normal and ordinary (thus boring) life w/Amelia. And I don’t say that to offend anyone who is enjoying the FBs, but my life certainly couldn’t be a television show as my life is rather ordinary and, thankfully, boring.
I think that is the main reason many viewers are bored w/his FBs and just want to get to the next part of his story -whatever that story may be. Nothing much is happening w/Sam and Amelia. I don’t really need to see how they met or how they broke up. Why is that important? Why do I care? It would have sufficed to simply say Sam had a relationship and leave it at that.
I know some feel Sam’s time w/Amelia is telling them something about Sam, but I have to disagree. I’m not learning anything about Sam through this story and these FBs. Sam is not disclosing his thoughts or feelings to Amelia or anyone else. We’re not getting any private moments w/him grieving or missing Dean. We just see her talking to him, and I’m not going to impute her feelings onto him. So far, the FBs just show Sam in a relationship. That’s it. The Sam in the FBs is not even overwhelmingly sad, depressed, or lost. The writers keep writing lines that say Sam is those things (i.e., sad, depressed, lost) but they keep failing to back up their words w/actual scenes showing Sam being sad, depressed, and lost. Sam seems fine to me in the FBs. In fact, Amelia seems fine to me as well. A little bitchy and offputting, but definitely not a “mess” like she described.
Because his story is coming off as wholly normal, it feels really misplaced on this show about the supernatural. As I’ve stated elsewhere, unless there is a twist to this story, then this will have been a pointless effort, IMO. I already knew Sam could have normal and be in a relationship. He did that in college and with Jessica despite Carver’s retelling of the past. Someone said this story “humanizes” Sam . . . . well, Sam was already human to me. This story does absolutely nothing, IMO, for his development.
Finally, no matter what angle Sam’s story takes – real or imagined – the writing for him hasn’t been very good so far. IMO, there haven’t been enough hints/clues if Sam has imagined a life w/Amelia. We’re at the mid-season point, so we should have a clearer idea of what is going on w/Sam. And if Sam’s time w/Amelia has been completely normal w/no supernatural influence, they have failed at thoroughly explaining how Sam went from demanding that Crowley tell him where Dean was to this guy who just “ran.” Huh? I can buy life being too much for Sam to handle BUT they have to tell a story first. Having Sam make vague comments is [u][b]not[/b][/u], IMO, a story.
[quote]First, all of Sam’s FBs have been awkwardly placed thus far.[/quote]For me sometimes the triggers for FBs don’t make sense.[quote]absolutely nothing is going on in Sam’s FBs.[/quote]At the beginning of the season i thought something might be going on in Sam’s FBs which will give me some Sam insight.I am getting to know Amelia in snail pace whereas Benny’s origin has already been established and almost nothing has been added to Sam’s character other than “he ran”.[quote]the writing for him hasn’t been very good so far.[/quote]I agree.[quote]We’re at the mid-season point, so we should have a clearer idea of what is going on w/Sam.[/quote]I agree we should but after seven years i have come to terms that Sam has a “maybe chance “of getting explored after mid season.So,atleast the show is consistant there.
[quote]I think that is the main reason many viewers are bored w/his FBs and just want to get to the next part of his story -whatever that story may be. Nothing much is happening w/Sam and Amelia. I don’t really need to see how they met or how they broke up. Why is that important? Why do I care? It would have sufficed to simply say Sam had a relationship and leave it at that.[/quote]
If this is the answer that they on why Sam didn’t look for Dean then it’s BS. Why would Sam run away in the first place? He seems fine in all those flashback. Capable of holding a job and having a relationship. That only paint Sam in a bad way that he chooses to run away other than looking for Dean. Now the main question is why you choose to run Sam?
Sam can see now that even if he was not in Amelia’s life, her husband would return eventually. There was no need for Sam in Amelia’s life. Sam is expendable, a surplus that can come and go without disrupting nature. Without Sam looking, Dean will be back eventually. So, there’s no need for Sam in this world. He has no place now that Dean has a better brother than him. Why don’t Sam just die and the world will be better of without him meddling things and making it worse.
If Sam choose to look for Dean then things will be better.
1) It will strengthen the bond between the brothers
2) Spare Amelia more harlequin drama in her life
3) Probably not hitting the dog
See, things are already a mess because of Sam’s false choice in his year off. Again, they make Sam choosing a false choice like S4.
Sorry. That’s just what I see the writers are trying to say here.
double post sorry
lala2 – Thank you for taking the words right out of my head and putting them in print! You are spot on and I am so with you on this.
lala2, Don’t you feel that Sam is a superfluous this season?
There’s no need for him to be around anymore. We don’t see his reason to not look for Dean. And now that Dean seems to have a better brother then he doesn’t need Sam and Sam doesn’t seem to need Dean because as he said in Heartache, seems to me that Sam would prefer to be at another place then in the car beside his brother.
Don’s back (if he and his wife really exist) so, Amelia will not need him anymore and she shouldn’t need Sam because she has a husband to tend too.
No one need Sam. It won’t make any different if Sam did look for Dean because Dean got out by his own in the end. It won’t make any difference if Sam didn’t start a relationship with Amelia because her husband would come back by his own. anyway.
So, everything that Sam did and do this season is nothing but messing other people’s life. If you take Sam out of the equation, things will go just as well. Just as if he doesn’t exist. He’s been trying so hard to insert his own life into other people’s life, like Amelia’s, Dean’s, Kevin’s. But the truth is they don’t need him.
By the way, Kevin did okay during Sam’s year off.
So, what the writer do right now is eliminating Sam’s purpose to exist in the world.
Theory! I have a theory!
It’s canon now that Roman Enterprises is done for. (Thank you suicide man)…. So here’s my new thoughts….
After Dean and Cas disappeared, and Crowley took off with Kevin, Sam looked around. Hmmm. No Dean anywhere…
Sam finishes his appointed task, ie blowing up the lab… Goes and gets Baby, and waits for Dean/Cas…. They’re a no show, so he starts finding all the remaining Levis… to kill them all, of course, but also to ask what they know about what happened. Over and over he hears them say that Dean was still in the lab when it blew up…
Eventually, Sam believes them, and thinking, therefore, that HE ACTUALLY KILLED HIS OWN BROTHER, he decides it’s too much, tries to kill himself, and hits a dog…..
Yes, I know, lots of holes, but it’s a THEORY!!
What do ya think? Possible?
🙂
[quote]Theory! I have a theory!
It’s canon now that Roman Enterprises is done for. (Thank you suicide man)…. So here’s my new thoughts….
After Dean and Cas disappeared, and Crowley took off with Kevin, Sam looked around. Hmmm. No Dean anywhere…
Sam finishes his appointed task, ie blowing up the lab… Goes and gets Baby, and waits for Dean/Cas…. They’re a no show, so he starts finding all the remaining Levis… to kill them all, of course, but also to ask what they know about what happened. Over and over he hears them say that Dean was still in the lab when it blew up…
Eventually, Sam believes them, and thinking, therefore, that HE ACTUALLY KILLED HIS OWN BROTHER, he decides it’s too much, tries to kill himself, and hits a dog…..
Yes, I know, lots of holes, but it’s a THEORY!!
What do ya think? Possible?
:-)[/quote]
It IS actually possible. I’ve recently read something that said perhaps Sam was trying to kill himself when he hit the dog. If he thinks he’d killd Dean then it makes sense.
Oh that is so traumatic! Poor Sam!
[quote]Oh that is so traumatic! Poor Sam![/quote]
Which is why it explains how obsessive Sam could’ve let it go and clung onto Dob/Amelia… Yes?
It would HAVE to be something huge for my Sammy to move on…
The more I think about this reasoning for Sam not to hunt the better I like it – it is a REALLY good reason – only problem is why doesn’t he tell Dean that’s what happened?
….oh lord, maybe on top of the not-dead-husband soap opera trope we have the protagonist-has-lost-his-memory one.
Yes, Sam hit the dog while trying to crash on purpose has been one of my hypotheses about the “lost year” too. And the dog may have been one of those “God’s will” kind of events. It fits with this last episode too. Sam was very emotional when he told Amelia she saved him. First she made Sam take home the dog. So… Sam had to take care of it until he found the dog a good home, right? And before that happened, Sam discovered Amelia was in a bad way too and so, the dog got better but he had to take care of her… so to speak. So he never got back in that car planning to drive off a bridge, or into a pole, or… whatever…
And of course he doesn’t feel right telling Dean that. The guy’s just back from a year in Purgatory and you’re going to tell him… well, I tried to kill myself when I thought you died but… really… I’m feeling much better now (LOL – sigh). But he also doesn’t feel right lying to Dean or he just doesn’t have the strength and confidence to come up with a good lie and never slip up. So… he just says … nothing.
When Dean almost doed in Faith Sam tried something a bit magical, despite his training. He got Dean back and his innocence supposedly was unscathed by his naivete. Eh… but when Dean almost died at the end of the season, Sam seemed prepared to go that route again. So John headed Sam off at the pass by making his deal. The next time Sam was in danger of losing Dean, he started going darkside. In the end, he failed to save Dean so he tried making a deal. Once again, he was blocked, this time because the CRD wouldn’t deal. So Sam really went darkside. This prompted another magical intervaention… in the form of Castiel. But Sam was so messed up by then that it almost didn’t matter. Sam opts for a showdown with Lilith. I wonder if he hoped he would die too? He didn’t want to “be doing this” when he got old (magician ep.), so why get old? He was quick to get on board with Anna’s idea of scattering him around the universe and then he made Dean promise not to try to spring him if he dragged Lucifer into The Cage.
So… yeah… I’d definitely say if the writers decided to take Sam down a suicidal path in the “lost year”, they could point to stuff that wouldn’t suggest it was wholly out of character. Heck… forgetting for the moment the oddity that Dean came back to Sam’s and Jessica’s for some reason that has never been made clear… Dean had to drag Sam out, huh? If Dean hadn’t shown up, is it possible Sam would just stayed there and died along with Jess?
I’ve been writing this on sweetondean’s thread but feel the need to move it here because it seems like the right place,
My brain has short-circuited and somehow end up with this : [quote]As he said to Dean, “I know I can’t run anymore.†So he decides that he must face Heaven, what he did and the outcome of his actions. But Naomi has other ideas and zaps him out mid-sentence to tell him no…you can’t come back to Heaven. You’ve got to wonder why? Why does she need to keep him earth bound. [/quote]
Let’s turn around the perspective shall we. Earlier in the episode Dean said to Cas, “Listen to Sam” and while Sam gives speech to Fred Cas listens. Then he realize that he can’t run but Naomi sabotage his intent to return to heaven. What if this also happens to Sam.
Imagine Sam who has decided early on that he can’t run, he needs to look for Dean, then somehow his intent is averted over and over again by other forces, just like what Naomi do to Cas. What if what happens to Cas right now has happened to Sam a year ago.
Example :
“The rules are simple, don’t take a joint from a guy named Don…”
Reveal : It had happened before with Sam by taking a ‘joint’ from supposedly dead Don
Dean taking two beer bottles and opens it and giving it to Sam. Weirdly it happen present time, why would this be called remembering?
Reveal : It happened before with Amelia’s dad.
Dean’s back from war-like zone Purgatory. Dean’s supposed to be dead.
Reveal : It happened before with Don coming back from war. He was supposed to be back.
Sam’s fixing the vents and fan
Reveal : It happened before that Sam has to fix the vents and fan of the motel.
Could be that we should see these FB as not a memory but if we place ourselves in Sam’s place a year ago. These FBs are foreshadowing things that’s gonna happen in future. Sam’s not walking the memory lane but having a deja vu experience.
I had a dream of visiting some place that I have never visited before but since it was a dream I ignored it. Then, few weeks later I went to some place that looks exactly like in my dream. OMG I’ve been here before, in my dream. 😀
Edit to add because I am on a roll :
This also explain why Sam knows that Dean’s gonna visit Rufus’ cabin. This also explain Sam’s dialogue : “I don’t have to Dean, I know it’s you.”
This also explain why Sam suddenly knows how to use the inverted exorcism because he was prepared before.
This also explain why Sam’s so adamant to ask Kevin where is the tablet. Just like he knew before about it.
Also explain why Sam so concerns about Cas the first time he meet Dean because he has seen the sign about it before.
The FB is not merely a flashback but a clue for Sam.
Could it be that Sam’s psychic Vision is coming back?
(maybe I should post this on the Let’s discuss Sam’s Flashback thread)
Wow, so many theories on Sam, I skimmed over them, but got lost in the swamp. Sooooooooooo, I’ll add mine to the mix and see what happens. Personally, I think it was the angels messing with Sam (possibly an AU). I mean Crowley had taken Kevin and the tablet. Dean and Castiel were in Purgatory and poor Sam was left all alone. They had to do something to keep him safe until Dean (and later Cass) returned to Earth. Hence, either a AU or hook him up with Amelia to keep him stablized until Dean returns to help look for the tablets. This reeks of angels to me.
I mean, they are certainly messing with Castiel….why not Dean and Sam, too?
I do not ever want to see this Don character- I. Just. Don’t.
Okay, look, I’ve really liked the season so far. I’ve been really interested in the flashbacks (but I admit mostly because Jared looks so effing good in them), and it won’t even bother me if Amelia is real, but I don’t want a love triangle of sorts b/w Sam, Don and Amelia- NO.
Please show, NOOOO.
Panicking done.
I’m firmly on the Amelia-is-real side. I just can’t imagine the show re-explaining all the FBs to fit it into the dream theory, and I can’t imagine why so much time would be spent on the FBs if they were all in Sam’s head anyway. There are a few wrenches in this theory as well- the “don’t take a joint from Don” being one of them, too much coincidence, Dean?- but right now, I’m operating on the Amelia-is-real logic. Memory is fallible and I think Sam’s FBs are a little psychedelic, a little distorted to be more dreamy and romantic, but real.
(I think the lighting is a trick btw, to differentiate b/w reality and the flashbacks)
My post Hunteri Heroici theory is that Don is some angel/demon plant, obviously brought back to mess with Sam, and the resulting emotional tug-of-war led him to leave.
Which still doesn’t explain how he conveniently left EXACTLY around the time Dean came back from Purgatory.
(BTW, did Roman Industries literally “crash and burn”?)
To me one thing seems really weird: why is Sam going by his real name with Amelia? Wasn’t the name splashed all over newspapers in Slash Fiction?
Regarding Dean and Benny: someone told Benny how to find the portal. The CIAngels? If so, why did they want to get Dean out? And anyway, how did dead Benny know where his bones were buried? Last I checked, he didn’t even see his girlfriend being turned, so HOW? I’m guessing whoever told him about the portal also told him about his bones. So, like a payment. Get Dean to the portal, win his trust, get yourself out.
Looking at it that way: Someone wanted Dean and Cas out of Purgatory, someone wanted Sam alive and whole (because, to quote TPTB he really did meet Amelia under “bizarre” circumstances- and every single FB of his screams COINCIDENCE! BIZARRE PARALLELS! PSYCHOTHERAPY 101!) —but back in the hunt the MOMENT Dean got back —–(come on, 365 days and what are the odds that Sam goes to the cabin just a day or something after Dean gets back?)—-and the Don thing is looking very suspicious, and so is Cas’s meetings with Naomi. I’m starting to wonder if everything is interconnected and if the boys are chessboard pawns. Again.
Oh, I’d love it if it turned out that Sam/Amelia, Dean/Benny, Cas/Naomi are all interconnected and not just separate characters revolving around each of the 3 main characters’ separate universes.
And now I want to write up what falls under each of COINCIDENCE, BIZARRE PARALLELS and PSYCHOTHERAPY 101. Anyone with me?
[quote]And now I want to write up what falls under each of COINCIDENCE, BIZARRE PARALLELS and PSYCHOTHERAPY 101. Anyone with me?[/quote]
Oh yes!
Weird paranoid theories?
C’mon!
I love to 😆
Hi Darya, I didn’t see your theory until after I posted mine but we seem to be on a similar wavelength here in some ways!:D
Amelia maybe real, Darya but her relationship with Sam could be only in Sam’s head.
I have a theory and it had a major hole in it but I think I fixed it!
(Apologies, this is ridiculously long)
What if when the lab exploded everyone went to purgatory? What if the ‘real world’ they have all been in for the last few weeks is not real at all – but not real for everyone, not just Sam.
Maybe everybody is in Purgatory – just initially everyone’s purgatory was different:
Dean gets fighting that can’t be escaped and guilt that can – maybe there is more to life than killing things.
Sam gets a perfect existence – that can’t be the perfect world he imagined in his head because nothing ever is, so deal with what’s in front of you and live this life.
Cas gets a place where he can atone for his guilt and he doesn’t want to leave.
Kevin’s not really done anything to atone for so he has his mom to protect him.
Benny is a vampire who actually was in purgatory all along (see I can even include him in this) his reward of freedom was to lead Dean out of his personal purgatory to reconnect with Sam.
The problem all along has been that Sam’s behavior seems wrong and his FB’s seem fake. We can’t tell if Dean’s are because who knows what Purgatory should be like? But if it turns out that only Sam is living in a dream world then everything else that has happened has not happened to Dean, Cas and Kevin. However if they are all being manipulated in purgatory then it is happening to all of them.
The purgatory storyline is told from the point of view of the people having ‘flashbacks’ – Sam and Dean (and Cas, sort of, I will get to that) so everyone else is either a construct to manipulate them or a real person being manipulated to make them do what is required (likely Kevin is a real person because he was the only other person in the lab at the explosion)
This could account for all sorts of things that have happened that are not the standard way things happen on SPN:
Sam’s behavior.
Why he apparently had no help and no one to turn to and yet suddenly now there are people all over who can help (like Garth).
Some of the more dream-like occurrences in the FBs.
Dean blaming Sam for things supposedly forgiven.
Excessive numbers of familiar faces in different roles.
Killing humans just because they are bad.
Allowing supernatural creatures to live (and not investigating) just because they haven’t done anything yet.
Random things that have happened that don’t usually happen in SPN (fill in the blank here)
How Mrs Tran is able to put a demon twice her size in the trunk of her car
Why Crowley has red eyes and Mrs Tran spoke with Crowley’s voice.
Crazy lighting and Sam and Dean looking way too colorful (sorry, shallow, miss season 1-6 coloring)
How they get away with ‘Crosby, Stills and Nash’
How Sam hasn’t been arrested yet for mass murder and credit card fraud.
The reason for the flashbacks.
How Benny could be anything other than the most vegetarian vampire in the world – because his actions are not canon, they are Dean’s perception.
Why Kevin doesn’t have a guardian archangel
Why Castiel has new powers.
But what about the flashbacks?
These are there to reinforce the story the person manipulating them is trying to sell. The story setup was over a ‘year’ to allow the fake memories to be completely embedded before they are all brought back together.
Whenever Sam might begin to realize his behavior was not normal regarding Dean and purgatory he gets hauled into a dream and it is reinforced that he couldn’t do it – he ran – this reinforces his reluctance to discuss his year with Dean. And his disconnection with events so far is because subconsciously he is fighting the story he knows isn’t true.
Dean gets pulled into FB that cause him to be angry with Sam and not want to discuss it either (he hit a dog and met a girl).
Cas is an angel so his ‘flashbacks’ are different – he has to be brought into heaven and have the ‘story’ reinforced in person.
So who is puling the strings? Crowley, working with the CIAngels.
What is the point? The supernatural beings want a set of tablets – which are for humans so maybe only humans can find them. And the best way to find them is to set up a control world where they give the people all the information they have and see what the humans do with it. There is only 1 tablet available at the moment so that is what they use. Maybe the tablet got ‘broken’ because there is something in the other half that they don’t want Kevin to know about.
(if you made it to here thank you for coming on this flight of fantasy with me :D)
Wow… another good one… we really should collect those!
erm… someone said, she knew only two person, who wore a jacket with a collar like this.
Dean and John .. well, and perhaps Crowley.
But (here it comes, sue me) Adam did as well. He wore one of Dean’s old jackets, when he fell into the pit.
Ooh, look I took a nap and came up with ANOTHer theory.
I went and watched again- the guy watching Sam is wearing a turned up collar, cape-like thing or a very large, loose-ish jacket. You know what I thought immediately?Â
Dracula.Â
You know where that led me? Benny.
I’ll even throw in a theory-supporting quote. In the premiere, in the motel, when Sam asks Dean what Purgatory was like, he says it was “pure”. Later, over the phone, Benny says the same thing. “You were right, brother. Purgatory was pure.” I speculated this right after the premiere and then forgot that theory until now, now that I’m trying to connect everyone.
(phone call reminds me- why was Benny by a grave? And the dialogue he says “Choices, there are so many choices” WTH? Am I missing some kind of reference or is it weird he was hanging out at a burial? At that time we didn’t know Benny was a veggie vamp, I had kinda assumed that he’d probably killed someone! Now it just looks weird to me. And, if you notice, he’s wearing a collared, enormous jacket in that scene)
And you know who else other than Sam stepped away from the “family business” because he had “found something”? Benny. His wording in that post-blood-slurping-in-the-Impala conversation is all skewed and parallels Sam.
You know why this theory is very intriguing? Because it is literally “perception”.
It will pick up the one line we’ve all been spouting along with Dean: “Why didn’t you look for me when I was in Purgatory?” and turn it on its head. Because Sam was there, too. He just perceived Purgatory differently. Like Heaven was different for the two of them in DSotM. Dean has the literal version, Sam gets a different version where he is all alone (which is his worst hell) Dean allies with Benny and Cas, Sam does so with Amelia.Â
Now I don’t think the show is headed there: we’re getting the real world now IMHO, and Naomi suggested “an incursion of angels” went to retrieve Cas from Purgatory, so it’s looking very much like one place, not a layered multiplanar dimension like heaven, but I’d still love to fantasise this! Maybe even write fan fiction. Great idea!
I’ve read something about this in LJ lately. And she wrote a brilliant bittersweet story about Sam, Dean and Cas end up in purgatory but the way they perceived them is different.
Yet, If Dean and Sam were in Heaven together why don’t they in Purgatory?
I am on the opinion that with a bond that strong like they have, they will find each other again even in Purgatory. The fact that Dean is with Cas versus Sam all alone leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I admit I never a fan of Destiel because I’ve watched supernatural ever since the pilot first aired in my country and been fond of the two brother’s strong bond way before Cas even showed up until S4.
Your theory is good but the way the player is placed is not to my liking. Even in Zachariah’s made up world Sam and Dean were able to find their way to each other. Let alone Heaven.
[quote]
Yet, If Dean and Sam were in Heaven together why don’t they in Purgatory?
I am on the opinion that with a bond that strong like they have, they will find each other again even in Purgatory.
Your theory is good but the way the player is placed is not to my liking. Even in Zachariah’s made up world Sam and Dean were able to find their way to each other. Let alone Heaven.[/quote]
Yes, but that is why I am looking at it from this point of view. The angels / demons / whoever really, really have to work at it to keep Sam and Dean apart – organizing an entire universe for them and causing space between them. They know how the last attempts failed! Once Sam and Dean can communicate they will be able to work out they are being manipulated.
Dean is communicating with Cas because they have issues to solve between them.
It could be that a major point of the last episode is that Cas takes things at face value – he is a poor detective because he is not intuitive or suspicious. It is a good way to keep Dean from getting suspicious because he and Sam are used to Cas having an extra level of knowledge that they don’t. And this time Cas doesn’t have that knowledge.
TBH I think my theory requires too many leaps of faith to be the solution 😀
I love your Sam and real idea by the way!
eilf
out of all the theories out there….this one is literally my favorite.
i know something is up with this show and i hope it’s your theory. because i think it’s perfectly logical and would make for a hell of a season.
Why thank you 🙂 I had fun coming up with it, bits just kept falling into place. But I was just looking at it and I realize the thing that got me started I didn’t include – which was the question: Why won’t Sam and Dean just talk to each other about their year apart? Maybe because they are being manipulated not to? Why? So they won’t put together the clues and realize that they are not in the real world…
Darya, I am not sure if you are talking to me about the fanfics? But if so I would love to see what you do 😀
Yes, eilf! 😉 I am talking to you, and I do love your theory still. And I’m kidding about the fan fiction. Much as I’d absolutely love to write it, I’d never get Sam and Dean right the way some of these other fanfic writers do.Â
 Anyone else want to volunteer, though?Â
Dean wasn’t talking because he was afraid Sam would judge him over ‘leaving’ Cass and befriend Benny. Sam wasn´t talking because he was afraid Dean would mock his partnership with Amelia and that he ran and didn’t look for his brother.
Guys! And they say we, women, are complicated…
[quote]Dean wasn’t talking because he was afraid Sam would judge him over ‘leaving’ Cass and befriend Benny. Sam wasn´t talking because he was afraid Dean would mock his partnership with Amelia and that he ran and didn’t look for his brother.
Guys! And they say we, women, are complicated…[/quote]
Yeah.. and Sam wasn´t talking, because he was worried about his brother, fresh out of Purgatory, and tried to shiel him from whatever.
Guys!
Just… GUYS!
The ting with the names is really weirding me out.
Honestly….
Either the writers are just toying with us with massive shout outs or…
I just watched Blood Brother again (absolutely stunning episode by the way… one of my favorites)
Benny… as in Benjamin.
Benjamin Isaac Braeden anyone?
And the Old Man calls him his wayward son.
Amelia (or as her Father calls her Ame)
Amy?
Don?
Dean?
WTF?!
And what I especially like, are how the flashbacks are both showing the turning point moment for both Sam and Dean.
Dean´s, when Benny saves Cas and Sam’s, when he says to Amelia, that she has no one and connects with her.
Btw…I love how the memory of Amelia saying “And then it was gone..” sends Sam in free falling panic for Dean.
Blood Brother is Dean’s and Benny´s episode, while Hunteri Heroici is Sam´s and Cas´
Kind of like a mirroing pair.
WHat I would love to see, is how Cas and Benny react to each other in real time.
I´m no longer really sure, if Sam´s FBs are memorys or some kind of constructed reality… but I honestly don´t care.
At first it´s confusing, but when it all comes together… you can FEEL his confusion, his helplessness and how lost he is.
Gosh, it´s so heartbreaking.
ANd now, his brother is back and they can´t seem to connect to each other.
Talking about names. This reminds me of Samandriel the angel.
Samandriel = Sam-and-riel = Sam and real?
Could he be the one that tampered with Sam’s perception?
Crowley said that he barely scratch the surface with Sam-and-riel. (barely scratch the surface with Sam’s reality perception)
[quote]Talking about names. This reminds me of Samandriel the angel.
Samandriel = Sam-and-riel = Sam and real?
Could he be the one that tampered with Sam’s perception?
Crowley said that he barely scratch the surface with Sam-and-riel. (barely scratch the surface with Sam’s reality perception)[/quote]
Oh yeah… and Samandriel… yes… that one struck me as odd too.
And man, isn´t that little Angel cute?
A crying Angel? waaaaaaaah!
Can we please keep him?
Erm.. rescue him and keep him?
Along with Adam please.
You want to play with” Samandriel”? I had Rizzoli & Isles (or however it’s spelled) on as background noise today. My folks watch it but I don’t so much unless I’m visiting them. But today it came on and I left it on. I was kinda intrigued since I think their names came up in the werewolf girl ep plus the story involved playing a computer/larping sort of game in a Norse world. SPN gives us periodic Norse references too.
So, part of my looking for secret story clues involves me invoking the old hunter standby of anagramming. And I noticed I could get a Sam & a Dean out of your angel. And THEN I realized the Riz&Isles ep gave me something to do with the remaining letters. Apparently LARPing types will use IRL as shorthand for In Real Life.
So Samandriel anagrams to “Sam, Dean, IRL”
Samandriel = Sam & Dean In Real Life {LOL}
what struck me as odd, is, with Dean´s habbit of shortening every name (Castiel = Cas, Gabrel = Gabe) Samandriel would become Sam….
And that´s just weird!
Alice should do a contest and see which theory that is flying around this board is close to the Season 8 ending on Sam (figuring that they do tell what is going on with Season 8 at the end of Season 8). I think there should be a prize for whoever is get it correct.
Okay, so I’m new here and have been spending all weekend it seems reading everyone’s speculation on Season 8 (hopefully my husband hasn’t noticed how long it has taken me to do laundry). 🙂 Everyone’s thoughts have had me seriously rethinking each episode so far.
That being said, the one thing that still has me curious is who was watching Sam at the beginning. With Don coming back from the dead – and the “rumor” of a love triangle *shudders – is it possible that it could be Don watching the house and maybe the love triangle is one of the reasons Sam left? To me, it doesn’t seem like Sam would want to deal with the drama and would cut his losses and leave. That, or Sam suspects that Don’s returning is suspicious and he’s taking off to look into it. What better place to do that then Rufus’ cabin. Although, as someone else pointed out, the timing of Sam and Dean both showing up at the cabin at the same time is suspicious, too.
Ugh, so much to think about. My head just wants to shut down. 🙂
Hi ya, MadIzzy!
Welcome to the madhouse that is season 8 speculation! 🙂
I’m with you on the shuddering at the love triangle thing. Hope they don’t decide to go there!
Romance + drama + Supernatural = NOT Supernatural (unless there’s a very gruesome death 😉 )
[quote]Hi ya, MadIzzy!
Welcome to the madhouse that is season 8 speculation! 🙂
I’m with you on the shuddering at the love triangle thing. Hope they don’t decide to go there!
Romance + drama + Supernatural = NOT Supernatural (unless there’s a very gruesome death 😉 )[/quote]
A very gruesome death with heads rolling LOL Honestly someone should write a crack fic out of these theory. I will hunt the fanfiction world for that. 😀
LOL thanks!
Well, I just refuse to accept that these FBs are just as they are because then, just like what Lala2 and Melanie has said above that if these FBs are real then they are nothing more than sloppy and lazy writing and Supernatural has been ruined because the brother’s bond has gone.
Writing about a Sam who is not looking for Dean is a wrong choice for a delivering Sam’s story and the way they handled his story is poor and resulting in OOCness.
My comment originally read: maybe on top of the not-dead-husband soap opera trope from hell we have the protagonist-has-lost-his-memory one 😕
I believe better of them than that 😀 You can have one moderately plausible soap opera trope of a non-dead husband (which I called a couple of weeks back so I am feeling smug about it :D) but not two!
I got the impression that Don left Amelia and enlisting was the excuse (at least from her point of view). I can see how that might cause some bother when he comes back. But him being possessed (by Meg?) would be way more fun.
Oh yeah, I remember someone suggested that Don may not be dead and will come back. So, it’s you! 😀
Well, I remember there are two persons who has left their life for a ‘Duty’. Jimmy Novak and Kevin Tran. Both families were wrecked. We’ve seen how devastated Amelia Novak was thinkin that her husband was crazy.
Could be Don has been doing the same thing. Maybe he is angel vessel and to protect his wife he asks the angel to camouflaged his disappearance, telling her that he was off to Afgan and MIA.
So, Crowley has been looking for Kevin. He thinks that Kevin must have been in contact with Sam. So, he visits Sam. But the angels protect Sam by sending him off and hiding him. Kind of like in a Witness Protection Program, they arrange for Sam and Amelia to meet so they can watch them at the same time while protecting Sam from Crowley.
Not bothering to log in, but it’s me (LOL)
The name of Jimmy’s wife was Amelia??? Hmmmm….
I´ve rewatched everything, in a more calm surrounding… and honestly, I´m loving it!
It´s quite funny, that I don´t like the myth episodes as much, but love the monster of the week stuff for the underlying character interactions.
Heartache was a good episode, not really more, but it was good, Bitten was great, even without the character interaction, but important nonetheless, because Dean decided to let the girl go and I love the way it was filmed.
I was sucked right in and it didn´t let me go again.
And Blood Brother and Southern Comfort were flat out just great!
The moment I stopped to desperately look for the connection between Sam and Dean, it was suddenly there.
Still strained, yes, but all of a sudden, they made sense and it worked. Even with the little jabs and the tension, but below, there was this feeling “still brothers, still caring”
And quotes likes “… and I can´t help asking myself: When is decapitation not my thing?”
In my opinion, we all are a) on withdrawl from brotherly moments (a complete season without? Puhleeez?!) and some good, heartfelt, beautiful tears and b) all still burned by season 7.
Fluffy2107,I think you are on to something there. Very much agree with your assessment. Season 7 definitely left a void. In spite of the conflicts this year, the caring still comes through. They can have a spat(or blowout) and fall back into that comfort zone they always have with each other Things are going to, for sure, come to a head soon however!!
I agree with you, Fluffy2107
Half of the bitterness this season feels like it had to do more with Season 7. I for one don’t think the brotherly bond is missing- except for Heartache, it’s shown up in basically every episode. Even in Bitten I thought it was sweet how Sam assured Dean he didn’t say awesome that much. Southern Comfort had the blowout, yes, but that read more like the sibling fight and less like a broken bond. With Blood Brother, we saw that phone conversation, Dean deciding to call Sam anyway, and Sam panicking like crazy in the car. I don’t think I need to mention A Little Slice of Kevin, and they worked together so well in Hunteri Heroici.
Okay, Sam didn’t look for Dean. Right now it seems OOC. But it also doesn’t seem like he was all that happy with Amelia, either, as opposed to what he was suggesting in Heartache. Whether it is real or not or whether there is a twist or not, I think this season is addressing a core issue with Sam. It’s as he says: take away the graffiti and we’re looking at someone who never wanted to hunt, who was only in the business out of revenge or fate. I think it is important for Sam to realise, to be clear and fair to his conscious and come to the conclusion that this is the life where he belongs. It seems to me to be about “I have to hunt with Dean” versus “I want to hunt with Dean”.Â
So I’m putting away the “But…but how could he not look for Dean!” away until I have a better answer, and looking at it this way. This is Sam coming to terms with who he is. Dean has always known himself pretty well, that he WANTS to hunt with Sam by his side. With Sam it’s always been more of an “I have to because…” that looks like it might change. The speech in Hunteri Heroici is the key.Â
I get that some people think its all character assassination this season, and that’s okay, it’s your viewpoint. But I’m pretty sure no writer wakes up and says “Let’s ruin this character, look how fun, Whee!” unless said character is Voldemort. Mid season writer-attack is seriously unwarranted. Writers are generally very much into ‘let’s mislead the readers/watchers’.Â
I admit it’s easy to feel this way post Season 7 but the writing team seems so much better this season. Look at Adam Glass, Andrew Dabb and the Buckner/Ross-Lemming team. They’ve all delivered their best material this season.Â
I’m a Sam girl too. Always have been, always will be. I hated Amelia at first, but I don’t see any reason to continue hating her. I positively liked her in HH. She admits she was a “hot mess” when she gave him the dog, so okay, she made a mistake. He started the frigging apocalypse. Shit happens.
[quote]
I’m a Sam girl too. Always have been, always will be. I hated Amelia at first, but I don’t see any reason to continue hating her. I positively liked her in HH. She admits she was a “hot mess” when she gave him the dog, so okay, she made a mistake. He started the frigging apocalypse. Shit happens.[/quote]
LOL! Beautifully said!
I sincerely like Amelia. She isn´t a hot love, pretty girl.
She´s real, she´s snarky, she´s hurt. But she´s genuine.
As for Sam not looking for Dean… Thanks, Crowley…
Thank you for leading a broken and wounded man down the path to believing his brother is dead.
Thanks for not telling him, where Dean was, though you so totally knew.
Thanks for hurting Sam so fucking much!
All the while knowing, what it would do to him.
Just, so, he wouldn´t come after you. Just to get them off your back, because you know, alone, they´re only half as dangerous.
Crowley knows very much exactly, what he needs to say to Sam, to make him break completely.
With lingering mental issues, losing Dean (again) AND Cas, so close after losing Bobby…
Meg gone. The one person who could and would help him to get leverage against Crowley to tell him, where his brother ist.
Kevin gone and no way to go against Croley alone?
Honestly… what was he supposed to do?
Well.. he could have tried to find the Alpha Vamp, if he had suspected, Dean was in Purgatory and not just… well… dead… after one of the biggest monsters in existence exploded right next to him.
Alone….
Alpha Vamp….
Perhaps not the best idea….
But all I get from Sam, is just… that he is so god damn tired….
Dealing with Lucifer, dealing with the memories, dealing with Bobbies death… dealing with Dean´s depression…
There just was nothing left, to keep him going anymore.
He was just so tired of it all.
Great… And now I want to cry again -.-
[quote] what was he supposed to do?[/quote]I don’t care for this question as the show could have shown what he did do.
and s04.I liked season 4 storyline but the way they presented Sam was a Hot mess
[quote]She admits she was a “hot mess” when she gave him the dog, so okay, she made a mistake. He started the frigging apocalypse. Shit happens.[/quote]If you think its about giving him the dog then you are wrong…It was her acerbity everytime at the beginning.I am not hating her but the thing is i know too little about her state of mind then,She was a “Hot mess”,Sam “Ran”.I just want the show to stop telling and start showing .Personally i would have preferred it before the hellatus but Sam is always relegated to second half and that too shittily.
Hear, hear! I agree [b]AnonN[/b], I want the show to stop telling and to start showing too. If I got to actually see the Sam who broke down and ran, after Dean was taken away from him, then I think I might have a bit more of an understanding and sympathy for him. But all we’ve been given so far is a Sam who, in his flashbacks, looks reasonably stable, emotionally (to me, he doesn’t look like the broken man he describes himself to be), and who isn’t telling anyone how he feels about things. That makes it hard to empathise with the character, compared to how Sam used to be portrayed in earlier seasons.
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Folks, all of your theories on what might have happened to Sam after Dean was zapped into Purgatory are INFINITELY more interesting than what we’ve been given by SPN’s writers, so far, this season.
It’s sort of depressing that we’re having to guess and suppose so much about what might have happened to Sam and what his motivations might be. I really think we should have been given a clearer idea of what’s happened, and is happening, with Sam by now, it’s nearly half way through the season, for Chuck’s sake 😥
[quote]Folks, all of your theories on what might have happened to Sam after Dean was zapped into Purgatory are INFINITELY more interesting than what we’ve been given by SPN’s writers, so far, this season.
It’s sort of depressing that we’re having to guess and suppose so much about what might have happened to Sam and what his motivations might be. I really think we should have been given a clearer idea of what’s happened, and is happening, with Sam by now, it’s nearly half way through the season, for Chuck’s sake :cry:[/quote]
Uhm?
That´s half the fun of it?
Throwing out theories like crazy? 😆
Supernatural is actually the only show, that I know, that manages to get people, not only to consume, but to think.
99% of TV doens´t even remotely require half a brain ^^
Absolutely! We none of us have to believe our theories are right, it’s just fun coming up with them. It’s like Fanfic-ing in real time.
To be honest even if this does all turn out to be face-value stuff, even that has been really good so far (well most of it).
Yeah, okay…. *grudgingly admits you have a point* 😆
Speculation can be fun and I suppose that it’s better to have fodder for speculation than to be spoon-fed plots with no room for viewer interpretation. But, given that we’re this far along in S8, I’d still like to have a bit of a clearer idea about what’s going on in Sam Winchester’s noggin and about why he didn’t try to find Dean (I don’t buy the retconned ‘promise’ between the brothers that was mentioned in S8E01).
[quote](I don’t buy the retconned ‘promise’ between the brothers that was mentioned in S8E01).[/quote]me too
Remember in season 4, we had to wait until the very last episode to finally find out what was REALLY going on… so, not knowing what’s going on in episode 9 of 23? Not really all that long to be in the dark by comparison. If the payoff is good, they can make me wait until episode 23 if they like! 😛
I’m the odd man out in as much as I didn’t enjoy season four, so that influences me. But frankly all that waiting until the very last episode to find out what was going on cemented the it doesn’t matter if Sam gets a POV in the show, pretty much permanently. It also left a lot of residual Sam hate in fandom, which is there to this day and DOES appear on this board on occasion, so it is appropriate to discuss.
Frankly, any sudden revelation on Sam that gives us 10 minutes of POV in the last episode will not take away the destruction of Sam not looking for Dean, and it will not silence the condemnation of Sam now wanting to continue to hunt now that Dean is back, and of not accepting Benny immediately or bringing Martin in, or daring to be angry at Dean for any reason, because all we see is Dean’s POV. For me, the Sam POV needs to be presented BEFORE episode 23 at least earlier than the true midpoint of the season. Giving Sam flashbacks that have nothing to do with his most controversial decision is not helping me enjoy the show one bit.
I can´t say, that I hate Sam… or even resent him the slightest bit.
I actually am a Dean girl… but right now, all I want to do is hit him over the head and tell him “Stop being such a sissy. Your brother thought you were dead and in heaven. What was he supposed to do? Make a demon deal?”
I feel awfully sorry for Sam right now, because frankly, Dean AP (after purgatory) is an unsensitive idiot.
I still like him… most of the time… though the way, he treats Sam is just crap. And I just hope, it will come back and bite him in the ass.
I´m not talking about him offering shotgun to Cas, because frankly, that was just stupid talk, and even Sam saw it that way. He flat out refused, when Cas tried to take the seat in the beginning. It was more of giving a kid a consolation cookie, because he tried (na matter how had he failed)
What I´m talking about is that self-righteous bitching Dean deals out with alarming frequency.
Yes, Sam ditching his phones was perhaps not the best idea. But then… Kevin actually is the Angel’s responsibility and Crowley had him. Who could have suspected, the kid would get away?
ANd he got away good, who got him in danger, was Sam and Dean.
Still, not the best move, but he threw himself into helping him, as soon as it occured to him, he had fucked up.
But that´s not even the thing, Dean is really pissed about.
He´s pissed, that Sam didn´t look for him …. because Sam thought he WAS dead.
Alright, Dean´s abandonment issues are plenty… but gosh…
He doesn´t even ask, if Sam is ok, if Sam WAS ok.
No, he heard, “I thought you were dead” and all he sees is the fact, that Sam didn´t look for him and he´s little Dean, left behind again, because his brother doesn´t wuv him anymore.
Even though, after everything, heaven, hell, mystery spot… he should be GLAD, that Sam hasn´t gotten himself into some kind of trouble out of desperation.
All Dean thinks about is Dean.
And he, the king of fear of being left alone, should above all people know, how absolutely terrifying it is to be completely alone.
Oh wait, it´s Dean…
Sam has any right to be angry. Dean dies, comes back, showers him in passive-aggressive accusation for weeks, all the while sneaking away to have secret phone calls with his new best buddy, who just happens to be a Vampire.
And why is he Deans new best buddy? Because he saved his life.
Oh wait… Amy did save Sam´s life too. She even killed her mother for him.
Amy is the reason, there still is a Sam.
But despite Dean promising Sam, he wont go after her, he kills her.
All the while Sam is just up front with Dean about Benny, the secret. (whom I love dearly, and I copletely understand, why Dean trusts him. But I also understand perfectly well, why Sam doesn´t.. after all, it´s not like he has any facts)
I did never betray you? Oh wait, that was the spectre talking, but damn… that must have hurt so much.
Oh, I just hope, Dean is in for a deep, deep fall.
At some point, he will have to face the fact, that he behaved like an insensitive idiot out of spite and like the worst brother ever. He usually comes around at some point.. and he is lucky that his brother is Sam Winchester, who thinks forgiveness is a virtue.
Yes, I know, where Dean comes from. Fresh out of purgatory, in his mind still an “us or them” mentality. I know he is Dean, he has issues, we love him for them (most of the time), but this time, he just is going too far.
He sits Cas down to talk, he listens to Benny.
When has having been to Purgatory become the standard for being worth to care about?
Sam doesn´t deserve this. SAM suffered too. And only because his suffering didn´t include fighting, doesn´t make it any less real. If anything, it makes it worse.
Dean had an aim, get out… while Sam had nothing. It was just over for him, and he had to pick up pieces, eaten by guilt, and frankly, I am surprised, he even tried and didn´t just flat out kill himself.
Though I still think, he might just as well have tried.
Anyways… what I actually wanted to say:
Dean, stop being such a baby.
I know, it´s who you are and being selfish is just something, that you are, which makes it all the sweeter, when you aren´t.. just…
Accept your brother for who he is and stop dragging him around like a pet, just because it makes you feel better.
Try acting like a brother again, instead of a spoiled brat.
You brother eats your fast food, so, gosh, let him have his organic apples.
And please… sit him down and tell him “talk to me”
So no, my problem this season isn´t Sam… it´s Dean.
Who, as much as I love him, still is, and always will be… well Dean.
BUt I think, perhaps his “phone prank” and Sam´s reaction got through his thick skull, that no… Sam is not ok. Which basically would be all that´s needed, to get him to open his eyes and pay attention again.
[quote]
Supernatural is actually the only show, that I know, that manages to get people, not only to consume, but to think.
99% of TV doens´t even remotely require half a brain ^^[/quote]
Exactly! Which is why it is one of the FEW shows I’m still watching!
[quote]It’s sort of depressing that we’re having to guess and suppose so much about what might have happened to Sam and what his motivations might be. I really think we should have been given a clearer idea of what’s happened, and is happening, with Sam by now, it’s nearly half way through the season,[/quote]Exactly Ciar,Guessing is fine ..but having to guess every season about only Sam is tiring.Let Dean get the honors at least next season.
I read somewhere that Henry Winchester aka John’s father will appear and he does a time hope, appearing in present day. A demon was after him because of an artifact. How much will you bet that this artifact is a tablet?
So, I have another theory. Henry did a time hope to hide a tablet. A demon is after him. The angels of course want the tablet too but instead of following him time traveling through portal, they have better plan. Since they knew where he would land they wait for him.
That’s why Naomi set up things with Cas and the brothers because she is sure that Henry will be in contact with them in present day. She’s waiting for it to happen in order to intercept him.
Then, the shadowy figure outside the house could very well be Henry Winchester, father of John Winchester.
[quote]I read somewhere that Henry Winchester aka John’s father will appear and he does a time hope, appearing in present day. A demon was after him because of an artifact. How much will you bet that this artifact is a tablet?
So, I have another theory. Henry did a time hope to hide a tablet. A demon is after him. The angels of course want the tablet too but instead of following him time traveling through portal, they have better plan. Since they knew where he would land they wait for him.
That’s why Naomi set up things with Cas and the brothers because she is sure that Henry will be in contact with them in present day. She’s waiting for it to happen in order to intercept him.
Then, the shadowy figure outside the house could very well be Henry Winchester, father of John Winchester.[/quote]
Interesting idea!
I would so love for the boys, to finally have some dunno… “good” relatives.
Just, dear Chuck, not another Samuel.
At first I thought Sam’s FB’s may not have been real but Dean smelled dog in the car so the dog was real. Sam said there was a girl and then there wasn’t, which would have been explained by Don’s not being dead. Sam bowed out gracefully. Sam wasn’t looking for Dean even before he met Amelia so can’t really blame his not looking on Amelia. Totally confused by Dean’s remark that you never take a joint from a guy named Don and in S7 Dean had a dog in the car in Repo Man. They’ve had all kinds of crap in the car, and lots of it bloody, so I can’t understand that Dean would be upset about a dog. All very confusing and misleading.
Hey all, I posted this question on Sweetondean’s recap but thought I would ask it here too, because I have not really seen it mentioned and would really like your ideas.
When Sam and Amella first start being friendlier, he says something to her about her being all alone and not having anyone. But she has a father! And a cranky, but supportive one who she clearly has a loving relationship with (favorite childhood dishes, stories about going to dance recitals) I can’t square that with the premise as it was set up.
This is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts. If it is not on purpose then it is very inconsistent writing. What do you all think?
I am trying to figure out if the use of recurring actors on the show means anything this year. We have seen the same actors used again from time to time, but this year it seems downright deliberate, like we are supposed to notice. An actor from another episode/season has been used (sometimes even more than one) in every episode except Bitten. What do you think that this could mean?
[quote]Sam said there was a girl and then there wasn’t, which would have been explained by Don’s not being dead. Sam bowed out gracefully.[/quote]
Yeah, it can be explained that way. There wasn’t a girl but then there really wasn’t from the beginning.
[quote]Sam wasn’t looking for Dean even before he met Amelia so can’t really blame his not looking on Amelia. [/quote]
I totally don’t care. She has her husband.
Can’t really compare Dean with her, to me Dean worth a thousand of Amelia and that’s just on Friday.
If I want to compare it’ll be like this :
Dean = big brother, substitute father/mother for 30 years history or live and death, sold his soul for Sam, stone number one when Sam’s on the brink of crazy.
Amelia = no one, less than a year of confusion and messed up, sold her soul? someone who relegates an injured dog to a drifter where she herself choose to run?, she’s not anyone’s stone as she’s a drifting wood on the ocean.
I am really sorry for sounding pissed but I can’t really accept the comparison that if Sam didn’t look for Dean then it equates to not looking after Amelia. Sam should’ve looked for Dean with or without Amelia. The problem about Sam didn’t look for Dean shouldn’t have anything to do with Amelia, she’s a lose variable, a wild card, shouldn’t even enter the equation. It was all in Sam’s choice and Sam has chosen a poor choice. The Sam Winchester that I know is not weak. He’s withstand Lucifer’s hallucination, withstand Lucifer’s possession, Coming out of a comma on his own. Smart, strong and resourceful. I just don’t understand why the writer insist him to be weak when he was supposed to be strong. he held on the Trickster’s manipulation and living 100 times of Dean’s death and still held on 6 months afterwards.
[quote]Totally confused by Dean’s remark that you never take a joint from a guy named Don and in S7 Dean had a dog in the car in Repo Man. [/quote]
I admit this is also inconsistent. But from what I know, the last time a dog was in the car, the owner was a psycho killer.
kaj, my thoughts exactly. Not only this post, in general. Seriously, it´s like you can read my mind
It may mean something, who knows anymore, but likely it’s mostly a financial thing. These are all local Vancouver actors. I am sure there are union rules and budget issues at play. After 8 years there is bound to be recycling, Vancouver is not THAT big.
Yes, but there is a huge difference between using the same actor in more than one ep from time to time and not being obvious about it, and what they are doing now, which is to make it so obvious that it can’t be ignored; it’s like we are supposed to notice that we’ve seen all these people before. In Southern Comfort there are like 4 actors from previous years in that ONE episode being used again. Vancouver ins’t THAT small and with it having the rep of being Canada’s Hollywood, I doubt that the show couldn’t find some new blood. I can’t help but fanwank about it some as it seems like such a [i]thing[/i].
[b]E[/b], the use of fairly recognisable guest actors from earlier seasons has been puzzling me too – shows aren’t usually this blatant about recycling guest actors, are they?
As for what it might mean, I have no good ideas because they aren’t consistent in how the actors are being used i.e. if they only appeared in flashbacks then we could speculate that they are images taken from Sam’s mind and they show he’s imagining things about his year with Amelia. However, the actors appear in both flashbacks and in the ‘real’ world, so I’m not sure that this theory would hold any water.
the thing about this season so far is that it feels so contrived. i feel like both sam and dean are being manipulated.
i’m starting to get that same feeling i had in s4. angels man. i think they are the ones manipulating everyone.
so if you’re ready for another off the wall theory, i have one.
in s4 it felt like the angels and demons were working together even if they didn’t really tell ea. other they were working together.
what i mean is, the demons put dean in hell and tried to break him. the angels could’ve gotten dean out at any time but they waited for dean to break the seal.
while dean was in hell, sam, broken and suicidal joins up with ruby, as she saves his life. the angels, aware of what ruby was up to, lets it happen. the angels wanted it that way.
so here we are again. only this time dean is in purgatory. now it seems, since benny tells dean about the window out, that angels could’ve saved dean at any time. but they waited.
why did the angels need dean in purgatory for a whole year? did they want dean to do something while in purgatory the same way they wanted him to break in hell?
where do you suppose angels go when they die? didn’t look like they were in heaven? do you think it’s possible in the spn world that angels can go to purgatory?
i was thinking that what if that’s where they go. that would mean gabriel/trickster is in purgatory. suppose benny isn’t a vampire. suppose benny is the trickster/gabriel. gabriel does what he’s told and he gets out of purgatory.
i say this because i find it very ooc that dean hasn’t questioned benny on who told him about the portal.
dean just lets a vampire loose on society without even checking up on him to make sure he isn’t killing.
dean tells sam that benny is more of a brother than he’s ever been. totally erasing a lifetime with sam for a year with a vampire.
dean doesn’t realize that benny befriended him out of nowhere so he can get a ride out of purgatory.
dean keeps repeating over and over like a mantra that benny hasn’t let him down.
benny keeps calling dean brother instead of by his name.
other than cas, what other angel would know more about sam and dean and how they relate to ea. other. who else would know what to say to manipulate dean. especially is dean was oh, possessed by a specter.
i just feel like the angels? for some reason are trying to keep the boys apart. out of sync with ea. other. distracted to what’s going on. neither boy as asked the other about their year apart. they did this in s4 and that’s when the boys had that rift.
i’m not sure what the real deal with sam is, i’m very confused. all i’m sure of it that amelia and sam have absolutely no passion. i don’t even feel like sam likes her. and in not one flashback have we really learned anything about sam. she’s the one who does all the talking. sam’s fbs, i feel like sam feels disconnected.
this season feels very surreal to me. i feel like the boys are puppets and someone is pulling their strings.
Great post nappi815! Describes very well the oddness and detached feeling of this season. I hope your theory is right, it actually does not feel that far fetched to me. This one is a lot more plausible than some of the others floating around. You pose some good questions I had not seen before.
Good theory!
One more thing. Why would they made Cas asked a question, “When you killed monster in monster’s heaven, where would they go?”
If they aren’t prepared to answer that question, why would they throw it there? Suspicious.
Also Benny was adamant to only bring Dean out and not Cas. Could be the one who told Benny about the portal is not the angels.
I have a feeling that there is still one more player that’s under the cloak. We have Angels, Demons, Alpha Vamp, Prophet, who else? Could be a new player in Supernatural world that masterminded everything.
This theory would be great if the angels were trying to keep Sam and Dean apart, a la S04, but this time they discover in time and it fails, or they don’t discover in time but it fails anyway. I would love that!
How did Crowley know who Samandriel was? He called him by name in 2nd episode. Crowley and the Angels have “talked” or something before. No theory
here as I am completely confused!
Everything about the Sam and Amelia relationship is off. She’s living in a rundown motel but has an established vet practice on her own, not with another vet. That takes big bucks. She says she has no one but has a loving father that she’s in contact with.Sam acts like he never had a birthday cake before but he had a long term relationship with Jessica, who we know baked him cookies so wouldn’t ignore his birthday. Who was the man outside the house? Why did Sam say he ran over her dog? Why don”t they say goodbye when he leaves? Why does Dean make the comment about the joint and dog in the car? The joint comment is OOC. Sam saying he knew Dean would throw “a bitch fit” was not a phrase Sam normally uses. I don’ t ever remember him using the word bitch. That’s a Dean word. Sam’s character has always seen the grey areas in hunting but is totally against Benny. The boys know lots of hunters. Why pick Martin? Sam doesn’t look for his brother. I don”t buy it. The real confusion is sometimes Sam seems like himself and then he doesn’t. One minute he seems supportive of Dean and then overly aggressive and angry. Still I am loving this season because I’m relying on all being explained.
It is Kevin’s tablet that Crowley has. He still needs it translated. As far as I know there is only one tablet around at the moment.
The awakening of the prophet thing is mostly guesswork so far. Currently prophets are like slayers – there can only be one at a time.
But I have a new theory (at least I think it is a new theory – I am going round in circles at this stage) what if Crowley isn’t a demon at all but a fallen archangel? Anything demonic he does would be manipulated perception like with Gabriel. And it might explain why he could be able to injure Kevin without bringing a protecting angel down on him – perhaps that only works when a prophet is attacked by a demon (it didn’t work that way with Chuck but Chuck was … oh who knows …. I need to go lie down, my head hurts…..)
It would explain why Crowley appears to have angel radio – knows all the players and everything going on. It would also explain how he is powerful enough to run hell.
I think that Sam was hospitalized and Amelia was one of his nurses. The scene where he left at the beginning of the season looked real, but almost everything else seemed too bright. I’m assuming Sam was hospitalized and he was given the dog as a companion animal. He had a relationship with one of the nurses but left because Dean was back.
Probably not, but my brainmeats thinks it would make sense as to why Sam would distort the relationship in his memory.
Light bulb – “bitch fit” is the expression Amy’s mother used in S7. The minute I heard Sam say it I thought it was weird that he used that expression but I knew I had heard it used before. Could Sam’s FB be a compilation of other stressful situations. Amelia’s father representing Sam’s conflicts with John, Amelia herself representing Dean, who gets sarcastic but is someone Sam loves and wants in his life,etc. So I’m sort of on the same page as you that Sam was hospitalized.
Octobelle05- Very much agree with you on this.
ok so there’s a few more hours to go til we hopefully get some answers. so i thought it would be fun to just throw one more looney theory out there…
so here goes::
what if amelia is not the real amelia? what if the amelia we’ve been seeing is one of crowley’s cronies, keeping sam busy so he doesn’t go off looking for kevin or the tablet. whoever was watching sam just could’ve been keeping tabs. maybe it was an angel or cas even, biding their time for when they were ready, for when dean got out of purgatory. i still think the angels left dean there for a specific reason.
maybe crowley killed the real amelia. we don’t know the chronology of what’s going on, so maybe the first eppy sam was just making one of his usual trips to the cabin. maybe that wasn’t the night he left for good.
in an upcoming eppy we are supposed to have the fb when don comes back. perhaps he was dead and the angels resurrected him to get sam back in the game. so what if don, who was never expected to return, shows up and amelia isn’t his amelia….that would make for a supernatural triangle. sam gets rid of the fake amelia or crowley rescues her. that would explain, there was a girl and then there wasn’t.
sam looking the real amelia up on the computer could’ve just been him curious as to what the real amelia may have looked like, where she really came from….
that’s it…my last off the wall theory…i’m done.
OK, so – unless I’m missing something, we’ve now caught up to ‘real time’ Amelia. We’ve seen what would seem to be all the pertinent narrative leading up to the first scene we saw of Sam leaving her and going to the cabin.
I just don’t see anything else to it. It just seems like what it appears — Sam hit a dog, met a girl and had a relationship that was derailed when her husband came home.
And apparently Amelia ‘saved him.’ I really don’t like that.
Yuck. But it would be OK if it would just be over already!
I really just wish that the S/L was done this episode instead of dragging into the next. I don’t want to see Amelia any more. I don’t care what she says to Sam – I just want it done. I said from the beginning that one of the MANY reasons that I didn’t want a romantic relationship for Sam is because it would end badly for him. And while Amelia’s not burning on the ceiling and wracking him with guilt — its still bad.
I don’t mind the boys being at odds — for me its a hurts-so-good kinda thing — but Benny is far more instrumental than Amelia in creating that tension. At this point, I feel like the whole relationship existed simply to create someplace Dean could send Sam off to.
Jared’s doing such a good job – he’s wonderful – I wish I liked the material he’s been given better.
[b]Melanie[/b], I was hoping for something more interesting in the Amelia & Sam storyline too, but it seems the writers are literally going with something pedestrian for Sam’s storyline.
I dislike the idea that Amelia ‘saved’ him too, I honestly think that Sam is strong enough to have saved himself given the other things he’s managed to extricate himself from in the past. Plus, as you say, Sam’s Black Widow (or “penis of death” as I call it in humorous moments) effect on the women he has relationships with has been done LOTS and I’ve seen enough of Sam angsting over the negative role he played in a woman’s life. If the writers would just give up on the idea of romantic storylines for the Winchester men, I’d be a very happy bunny. I’m not watching SPN for the romance, I’m watching it for the sci-fi and the Js’ acting.
I don’t mind the brothers being at odds, from time to time, if I can have a reasonable expectation of the rift being repaired at some point. But the brothers have been at odds, on fundamental reasons, for a large part of the seasons since S4 and it’s getting tiresome (for me). I don’t need them to be 100% in agreement on everything; I can cope with arguments and disagreements, but I hate the fact that we are being told that Sam and Dean don’t trust each other anymore – that attacks the fundamental core of why I watch the show 😥
I’m actually OK with the lack of trust being an ongoing theme because it hasn’t ever really been resolved — so if that’s the intent here, that going forward they do have to deal with it, then I’m good.
Personally, I think the fact that Dean is so wounded by Sam that he can’t let it go is just more evidence that Sam is the major relationship for him. He can forgive Cas easier because the hurt didn’t go as deep. He can trust Benny because its been a short and ideal(for Dean, the soldier) relationship so far.
But Amelia has to go.
Except as set up, the only way to repair this is for Sam to admit that he is totally, completely wrong and that Dean is totally completely right. The last time he did that he ended up jumping into the Cage and Dean STILL didn’t forgive him or even trust him again. I don’t see any possible repair with the situation that Carver has set up, only degradation for Sam.
[quote]Except as set up, the only way to repair this is for Sam to admit that he is totally, completely wrong and that Dean is totally completely right. The last time he did that he ended up jumping into the Cage and Dean STILL didn’t forgive him or even trust him again. I don’t see any possible repair with the situation that Carver has set up, only degradation for Sam.[/quote]
[quote]Except as set up, the only way to repair this is for Sam to admit that he is totally, completely wrong and that Dean is totally completely right. The last time he did that he ended up jumping into the Cage and Dean STILL didn’t forgive him or even trust him again. I don’t see any possible repair with the situation that Carver has set up, only degradation for Sam.[/quote]
Much fear, I sense in you.
*Yoda out*
Honestly, what I see here and what I see, needs to happen between those two, is actually
a) A big blowout for both of them.
Dean is the one, who doesn´t really understand Sam.
And that´s his abandenment issues speaking.
For him, Sam abandoned him, while Sam was actually not even remotely able to look for him.
And Dean needs to see this.
What Sam did, was actually the wise thing to do.
The last time, he blindly went after Dean, Ruby happened. And we all know how well Dean liked THAT one.
So now, Sam didn´t strike some shitty deal, and Dean is STILL pissed?
That was unfair.
Sam does get, where Dean is coming from, fresh out of Purgatory. He does get Benny… to a certain degree.
He´s doesn´t trust him. He doesn´t like the idea of his brother shacking up with a vamp… after all… uhm.. Dean WAS a vamp already and that might just cloud his judgement a little.
Why wasn´t it a Werewolf, that found him in Purgatory? Why of all things a Vamp?
But they need to get this out in the open.
b) Dean needs to take a step back, take a deep breathe and finally accept, that his brother IS NOT HIM!
We´ve been at this point already. Back in Scarecrow. But that was before Ruby, before Hell, before Hellucifer.
And Sam needs to calm the fuck down. He needs to let Dean help him. Steady him. He needs the assurance, that Dean is still his brother, screw his insecurities.
Dean tells Benny, what a great Hunter Sam is.
But he doesn´t tell Sam.
Instead he´s jsut constantly jabbing at him about taking a year off, without even caring what really happened.
Sam goes up against Martin, defending Dean and what he does.
But he doesn´t tell Dean.
Instead, he goes after Benny.
Frankly.. they need to [s]talk[/s] yell at each other. No holds barred and get it all out in the open.
[s]They both have only one brother[/s]
With them both abandoning Adam, they both have only one brother left and they know it. And they care.
Benny is not really a brother to Dean.
He´s a friend, a brother in arms, not more.
Dean can leave Benny just fine. But he can´t leave Sam.
And he knows it.
He just, as usual can´t open his mouth about it.
Same old.. same old.
Back to square one, boys.
Percy, I don’t think that its been set up that Sam is all wrong and Dean is all right. I know that you’re very unhappy with the s/l but I honestly don’t see it as Sam being ‘wrong’ and I don’t think that the writers do either. Dean certainly does, no question, but that’s not the same thing.
When we look at Sam, and the things, he has said and done and the things that really happened, over the course of the last 7 seasons… How many times has Sam really expressed, he has a purpose… something meaningful to add?
And how many other times has Sam rather had the idea, he made mistakes ( or choices) that have caused problems?
I mean: Demon blood, when trying to save Dean? The things, he did, when soulless, Dean selling his soul? (not his fault, but in the end, HIS fault), Going off by himself and killing Lilith?
And how many times, since being back from the cage and being HIMSELF again, has Sam truly decided on doing something by himself? Especially something, that differed from Dean´s course of action?
Everybody is talking about Dean´s issues with the way he sees himself. But Sam is subtle, he withdraws from the world, while Dean at some point just lashes out.
Sam just breaks quietly.
And here again. At the end of Season 7, Dean “dies” and Sam… just doesn´t. He´s jsut left behind.
And who is the one, that dies with Dean? His best friend. The one person, that shares a more profound bond with him.
Sam is just so frigging lonely, it breaks my heart.
Dean has Cas. Dean is Bobby´s favorite. Dean is the perfect son.
How many meaningful relationships, that center on him, and not on Dean, has Sam had in the last 9 years?
One! Her name was Ruby.
God… that´s painful…
Just wanted to add, for all that Dick Roman was supposed to be a “Levi” I still associate “dicks” with angels thanks to Uriel. I’m thinking all our humanoid winged things are really the same “species” Cas, Gabriel… phoenix… dragons… If Gabriel is an angel but also the god Loki… and if “every culture has its yada yada lore” (a beloved SPN take-home message of the early years), well, Dick Roman could be an “angel-god.” Anyway, the reason I mention this here is because, since Amelia is a Richardson, I must presume she comes from a long line of Dicks (LOL).
Ooops… is Richardson the maiden name or the married name? At least one of them comes from a long line of…. And was it the “vacation” topic where someone asked – if there’s a Naomi, will there be a Ruth? Dunno my Bible stories and didn’t go looking that up. But the question just put me in mind of something else. Babe Ruth may have been a dick, but baseball’s a beautiful game… something like that. And I bet baseball’s great because the object is to get all your runners home. What did Sam do? He ran. He ran messages, perhaps? Lots of communications themes in the show and Gabriel is especially associated with being a messenger of God.
Yes, but even an introvert needs someone he can trust, and spend time with, even if it´s only sitting around silently. Someone to prop him up, when he threatens to topple over.
Dean doesn´t do alone very good. No scratch that. Dean has a huge problem with being alone.
Sam hasn´t, but you can´t tell me, it´s easy for him to always be the outsider.
As someone who is a very introvert person herself, I can tell you, I absolutely NEED alone time.
But actually being alone, is something wholly different, especially, if you´re going through a hard time, even though your natural reaction is to actually withdraw.
That´s one of the reasons, why it is so important to actually have someone, who draws you back into the world.
Dean will always seek out others, even if only for passive emotional support. Just someone, who is there. And he has Cas, he had Bobby.
Sam just withdraws and he simply doesn´t have anyone to pull him back. He will just go down silently, without anybody noticing, until it´s too late.
And I´m seeing that pattern in the current situation.
Sam had Amelia, who grounded him and anchored him.
But he lost that and did the typical Sam thing and pulled back silently, depriving himself of that support again.
The only person, that usually actually has an eye on Sam and pulls him back is Dean, but Dean is too busy with himself, too narrow mindedly focused on hunting right now, to notice.
In the short term, Dean needs to wake up and see, that no, not all is well with his brother and how he has actually been adding to the burden with his jabs and demands.
Sam needs to open his mouth, not just yelling at Dean, when it becomes too much, as it did in Southern Comfort.
And in the long term, Sam definately needs another person in his life, someone, that actually has him as the primary contact in the Winchester team, and on whom he can lean and who he can trust.
It was totally better than Ruby.
But yeah… the dog saved the day… and he doesn´t get nearly enough credit for it.
Though Amelia had a good deal to do with it too.
After all, she was the one, who blackmailed Sam into taking him in and caring for him.
But they absolutely saved him.
I think, was Sam truly needs…. is a dog 😆
[quote]It was totally better than Ruby.
But yeah… the dog saved the day… and he doesn´t get nearly enough credit for it.
Though Amelia had a good deal to do with it too.
After all, she was the one, who blackmailed Sam into taking him in and caring for him.
But they absolutely saved him.
I think, was Sam truly needs…. is a dog :lol:[/quote]
Yes Sam need’s a dog , unconditional love without crap being thrown in his face and judgement’s .I would vote for that.
Well, as it’s been pointed out many times, everyone is going to let you down. That doesn’t mean there’s not unconditional love, right? If it’s true for Sam, it’s true for Dean as well. Sam and Dean both have bad habits with each other, but that doesn’t negate how they feel about each other. A dog might not ever judge or talk back, but it’s also not going to save your soul from hell even after everyone else has given up. Now, if Sam wants a dog, I’m all for it. Sam can leave (and has) and seek out others, but it’s not going to be the same as the relationship he has with Dean. Dean can have Cas or Benny around, but he always returns to Sam, because what he has with Sam is on a different plane. Let’s face it, as crazy as these boys make each other, it doesn’t mean that there’s not unconditional love there.
And exactly what is the relationship Sam has with Dean? I thought after the end of season 5 he had one where mistake’s where but like a piece of driftwood that pass on by and after all his willingness to not only make up but willing to face a eternity of pain for them we learn that Dean has clung onto them like a never ending cycle.And on top of that it seem’s resentments that go way back.
Bad habits is one thing , but holding onto destructive resentments is no good to either him but esp Sam , love is not always enough to hold two people together .
In truthfulness I havent appreciated Jeremy Carver creating this drama between the brothers having Dean drag up past resentments , creating yet another brother relationship for Dean alongside the Castiel one and putting Sam in a position he ill deserved after willing to take on the greatest evil to save the world but there we have it.
Boy do I second this. Jeremy Carver has managed to convince me that the brothers should stay far away from each other, possibly getting together on MAYBE Christmas or the anniversary of Mary’s death for long enough to say “Hey” and then walk away again. Carver has managed to take a sledge hammer to the relationship that I love and I don’t see how it can be repaired and I’m not certain I want it to be.
Let Dean work with his “better brothers” Cas and Benny. Benny is faster and stronger than Sam and Cas can handle pretty much everything that comes down the road. Dean would be safe as houses with them.
As to Sam, well Carver has left him with nothing, or maybe less than nothing. Heck, Amelia forces him to take the dog and then keeps it when they split up. But anything has to be better than spending 24/7 with someone who will NEVER forgive him, who holds on to grudges so tightly, who is willing to replace Sam with people who are “better” than him, who refuses to remember anything good that Sam have done and who offers riding shotgun (something Sam actually FOUGHT for in “Hunteri Heroici”) to the guy who deliberately broke Sam’s wall and left Sam hallucinating Lucifer, becoming insane and almost dying. Obviously, only Sam is the recipient of the “all you do is betray me” award.
It would be healthier and better for Sam and Dean to split. I love Sam, but I am totally aware the Dean is more popular and doing this will make it the Dean and his cuddly supernatural friends show, but that would be better than the status quo.
[quote]Boy do I second this. Jeremy Carver has managed to convince me that the brothers should stay far away from each other, possibly getting together on MAYBE Christmas or the anniversary of Mary’s death for long enough to say “Hey” and then walk away again. Carver has managed to take a sledge hammer to the relationship that I love and I don’t see how it can be repaired and I’m not certain I want it to be.
Let Dean work with his “better brothers” Cas and Benny. Benny is faster and stronger than Sam and Cas can handle pretty much everything that comes down the road. Dean would be safe as houses with them.
As to Sam, well Carver has left him with nothing, or maybe less than nothing. Heck, Amelia forces him to take the dog and then keeps it when they split up. But anything has to be better than spending 24/7 with someone who will NEVER forgive him, who holds on to grudges so tightly, who is willing to replace Sam with people who are “better” than him, who refuses to remember anything good that Sam have done and who offers riding shotgun (something Sam actually FOUGHT for in “Hunteri Heroici”) to the guy who deliberately broke Sam’s wall and left Sam hallucinating Lucifer, becoming insane and almost dying. Obviously, only Sam is the recipient of the “all you do is betray me” award.
It would be healthier and better for Sam and Dean to split. I love Sam, but I am totally aware the Dean is more popular and doing this will make it the Dean and his cuddly supernatural friends show, but that would be better than the status quo.[/quote]
I agree with them 10000%. If seperating the boys permanetly resulkted in Jared being off the4 show. I’d cheer for ut. I really want to see JAred in something that he can truely shine in…where his charector wont be a plot devise for the other charectors. hell he’s si8mply a plot devise for Benny now. I’d love to see Jared on The Walking Dead or any AMC program.
Anything as long as I can imagine Sam as happy and thriving amongst people who truely care about him as a person.
I can’t imagine viewing the Winchesters’ relationship as being this toxic and this one-sided, quitely frankly. Neither Sam nor Dean is each other’s victim or big bad wolf. They’ve both made mistakes and treated each other badly, and they’ve both done great things for each other and proved their brotherhood. We are so radically far apart in our views I’m guessing it is best to just agree to disagree and move on.
It is very sad to me that that is how you see their relationship and basically would rather see the series end then having the brothers try and mend this admittedly broken relationship. Have “Sam” go to The Walking Dead where he will be happier. Have you seen that show? Meet a couple of times a year. That means SERIES OVER. Do you really want that?
Taking response to the Season 8 bitterness thread.
Now would be the perfet time for Sam to walk away or even die on the show, pilot season is approaching and Jared could easily get a job that would be better for him in terms of building his career and spending more time with his family.
I would love Zach Levi to put together his comedy and get his wish of having his good buddy Jared join him on it.
Dean fans have said for years that the show can go on without Sam so why not?! Jared fans will follow him wherever he goes and Sam fans can finally walk away from a show that IMO gives them very little reason to watch.
In my opinion, those people, who claim to be fans and at the same time, want the character off the show aren´t fans of the character.
They are fans of some fantasy, they have built up in there heads and are disappointed every time, this fantasy isn´t fullfilled by the show, they claim to love, despite them being entitled to it.
And yes, I´m just a wee bit pissed.
Hades, my question to you is- if you are so unhappy that you would prefer Sam to die or Jared to quit, why bother coming here to comment? Do you even still watch the show? Please understand that I am not saying you SHOULDN’T comment or watch. You just seem to have completely given up on the show so what is the point? Is there anything about the show you like? I sincerely would like to know.
It sounds good, but Dean has already said that as long as they travel together, Sam can’t get a dog. As soon as he got back, he laid down the rule, no dogs in the Impala and considering Sam having his own car got squashed (literally as well as figuratively) in season 6 it is extremely unlikely that Sam will EVER get a dog, or an Ipod, even though Dean could put his music on it and not worry about his tape collection breaking. We will also almost never see Sam drive the Impala, so he won’t get the benefit of “driver picks the music”. In fact, after Castiel helped with Fred Jones, Sam has even lost shotgun if they team up with Cas again.
The brothers are slated to be in the care, it is the one constant of the show, but the Impala is undeniably Dean’s and his word rules, so no dog for Sam.
Do you reallize that with the IMpala being Deans and Deans alone…all their family photos and mementes belong solely to Dean? Sam actually isn’t allowed to have any claim or access to hsi own family at all unless Dean is in a charitable mood that moment.
I’m sorry, but this is just…. it’s absurd… Sam can’t lay claim to photo’s that he’s IN because they happen to reside in the trunk of the Impala? And because the Impala is Dean’s, this somehow means he can’t even consider himself a part of his own family unless Dean says so? I am sorry, but I find this just ridiculous. Sam is a human being and his own man. He can ‘claim or access his own family, mementoes and/or photos’ at any time that he wants to, Dean or no Dean, Impala or no Impala. Statements like this do a huge disservice to the character IMO; basically claiming that Sam’s incapable of asserting his own rights as a human being as though he’s an infant or mentally handicapped and incapable of opening his mouth, or taking HIS photos out of DEAN’s trunk and walking away with them any time he chooses. By this argument you could claim that Sam’s laptop isn’t Sam’s nor his backpack, his clothes or even his shaving cream and toothbrush, because they are all ‘in the Impala.’
Bobby called and called in Mystery Spot, which was not exactly reality. After Dean went to Hell, Bobby said he couldn’t find Sam. The indication was he made a few attempts and then stopped trying and turned to drinking to deal with is grief. I’m sorry, but Bobby as the victim of mean, horrible Sam is not what I saw. Just two guys who dealt with grief in their own way and drifted apart because in spite of the retconned surrogate father, Bobby really did like Dean best and wasn’t too chuffed to find or help Sam.
Look my objection to Dean’s feeling betrayed by Sam being soulless is that being soulless wasn’t something Sam sought, IT WAS DONE TO SAM. It is exactly like Dean punching Sam for DARING to be possessed in BUABS. In both cases Sam was VIOLATED and Dean was hurt and when all is said and done, Sam gets punished for being violated. To say that is unfair is understating things.
Sam did things that were horrible. Dean could have said they were unforgivable and told him to leave. But Dean stayed with Sam. He ostensibly forgave Sam at Rufus’ grave. Now he wants Sam riding next to him for the rest of their lives, while resenting him for past sins and telling Sam that Sam has NEVER been a good brother, that a vampire is a better brother than Sam and by the way Dean is willing to work with the Meg, the demon that violated Sam and Cas, the angel that violated Sam. He has been more forgiving of those who harmed Sam than of Sam for being a victim.
Edited to add Castiel was the one that brought Sam back soulless, but Dean is blaming SAM for being soulless.
Ah but we’ve gotten mixed signals on what to make of “soulless Sam.” Sam took responsibility for everything that happened. Yes, it muddies the waters that Dean, “The Dean” seemed not to blame Sam for his soulless exploits and now n S8,Dean seems to have changed his tune. But maybe instead of presuming the writers are talentless we should ask – why might this “change” have happened? Maybe we should worry about Dean’s erratic behavior instead of pointing fingers at him or the showrunners/writers. Who’s to say that Sam, Martin and Cas are the only ones who have to deal with mental health problems {shrug}.
As I wrote above, Dean can be quite the self righteous prick. 😆
I didn´t begrudge him the punch, when Sam was possessed. Sometimes you need that and he NEVER held that against Sam. He fought tooth and nails for him.
(AND he didn´t mention it here either)
Throwing being soulless at him, was a low blow, but I don´t see it as some violation of Sam, since it was just Sam not being complete. Which still isn´t something, Sam had any say in or any chance of avoiding.
What Dean ticked off, in his rant, all where instances, when Sam, for some reason, be it not caring, or another person, put distance between himself and Dean.
And by now, we all know, how well Dean deals with the mere thought of that.
Ruby was someone who came between Sam and Dean (notice, how Dean DIDN`T mention Sam opening the cage?)
Samuel clearly preferred soulless Sam over Dean and how he always treated Dean as if he was weak and actively kept Sam by his side and Dean out of the fight?
Soulless Sam openly told Dean, he didn´t care for him.
WHich all ties in nicely to the last year.
The problem isn´t the “you left my to die”, but “for a girl”
Sam had someone, he was close to, while Dean was away.
That Sam thought Dean was dead, didn´t really register with Dean.
In Dean´s mind, it all ties in: My brother abandoned me for someone else, who must be more important to him than me.
[quote]
In Dean´s mind, it all ties in: My brother abandoned me for someone else, who must be more important to him than me.[/quote]
I think that what’s not being acknowledged is that Sam didn’t say he thought Dean was dead for sure. He said he didn’t know if Dean was dead or eating tacos somewhere on the other side of the world, or something to that effect. So Sam wasn’t sure Dean was dead, but he didn’t try to find out. Right now, Sam’s not telling Dean that he was too devestated to look, or that he ran away in face of his grief. He’s saying he tried nothing and was all out of ideas. Then he found something better and decided to enjoy the finer things in life. So I think Dean’s conclusions are pretty understandable, and Sam’s doing nothing to dissuade him or to reassure him. And no, Sam doesn’t have to, but you’d think he’d want to make the brother he loves so much feel better. As you point out, Dean has had a lot thrown at him re: Sam over the years (as has Sam, of course), so it doesn’t seem that surprising that he reached this place, and I’m not sure why it should be dismissed as nothing.
So yes, Dean isn’t being kind to Sam right now (though the name-calling seems juvenile), but Sam is doing nothing to try to make the situation better either. So they are definitely both at fault here.