Let’s Discuss: The Supernatural Season Eight Bitterness Thread
No doubt, last night’s midseason finale triggered some very polarizing opinions about the episode and season eight in general. I started last week a season 8/Jeremy Carver appreciation thread, but I do realize we need to represent the other side as well. So here it is. What about Supernatural season 8 is making you bitter?
This is where all the “The writers are trashing Sam and/or Dean,” “The writers are ruining this show,” “I can’t forgive this character for doing this or that character for doing that” comments belong. This is a free form rant zone. Have at it. This is also one of those rare zones where we will permit Sam vs. Dean. Just try to respect each other. That’s all we ask.
Alice Jester is the founder, editor-in-chief, head writer, programmer, web designer, site administrator, marketer, and moderator for The Winchester Family Business. She is a 30 year IT applications and database expert with a penchant for creative and freelance writing in her spare (ha!!) time. That’s on top of being a wife, mother of two active kids, and four loving (aka needy) pets.
From Percysowner – moved from the Citizen Fang Preview article:
Please understand, I am a Sam fan and what I am angry about is that Sam is being deliberately trashed by the writers. I can cut Sam plenty of slack, but if I DARE to criticize Dean I get jumped on and the writers have piled on having Dean state that Sam is a bad brother, is less trustworthy than Benny and that Sam has betrayed Dean over and over and Benny never has. What I am upset about is the complete and utter refusal by the writers to provide Sam with any understandable POV. We have seen him with Amelia, a character we never met before this season and did not have any feel for. We have not been shown Sam grieving for Dean. In EOMS we saw Dean grieving for Sam in his year without Sam, with Sam, he mentions Dean died, claims it wrecked him, but shows NO sign that this is true.
There are a thousand ways I can understand Sam and why he is acting the way he is, but the text is clear. Sam abandoned Dean. Sam is jealous of Benny and is disloyal by not taking Dean’s word on Benny being safe. We are repeatedly TOLD and TOLD that Sam is in the wrong here and deserves the cruelty that Dean used to get him away from Benny. I can’t fight the fact that canon has stated explicitly that Sam has no good reason for his actions. Subtext is well and good. Jared is doing his best with the material, but in the end Benny has been shown to be a good vampire and loyal to Dean. Cas has been shown to be manipulated by Naomi and not responsible if he hurts Dean. Sam has been given NOTHING to excuse his behavior.
I can only conclude that Carver and the writers want us to dislike Sam and since more than half the fandom already despises Sam that is not hard to do. They may be planning a bait and switch with a reveal that will redeem Sam, but if so they have waited too long and put too much effort into making Sam irredeemable. Anything they do from here on out will be classed as “excusing Sam and not holding him responsible for his actions” Dean will be portrayed as the poor betrayed brother who doesn’t deserve the awful Sam as his brother. Dean will be seen as being sacrificed to making Sam a saint. The ill will that has been established by the first part of the season may be impossible to erase. And it sickens me.
Sam fans are not being harder on Sam than others, we simply see the writers as deciding to annihilate Sam’s character and we have finally admitted that this is what the writers want.
It is obvious to me that those who love Sam are unwelcome to TPTB. They want Saint Dean and Saint Dean they will have, while Sam remains the abomination.
Reply from Fluffy2107:
[quote]Pleas understand, I am a Sam fan and what I am angry about is that Sam is being deliberately trashed by the writers. I can cut Sam plenty of slack, but if I DARE to criticize Dean I get jumped on and the writers have piled on having Dean state that Sam is a bad brother, is less trustworthy than Benny and that Sam has betrayed Dean over and over and Benny never has. What I am upset about is the complete and utter refusal by the writers to provide Sam with any understandable POV. We have seen him with Amelia, a character we never met before this season and did not have any feel for. We have not been shown Sam grieving for Dean. In EOMS we saw Dean grieving for Sam in his year without Sam, with Sam, he mentions Dean died, claims it wrecked him, but shows NO sign that this is true.
There are a thousand ways I can understand Sam and why he is acting the way he is, but the text is clear. Sam abandoned Dean. Sam is jealous of Benny and is disloyal by not taking Dean’s word on Benny being safe. We are repeatedly TOLD and TOLD that Sam is in the wrong here and deserves the cruelty that Dean used to get him away from Benny. I can’t fight the fact that canon has stated explicitly that Sam has no good reason for his actions. Subtext is well and good. Jared is doing his best with the material, but in the end Benny has been shown to be a good vampire and loyal to Dean. Cas has been shown to be manipulated by Naomi and not responsible if he hurts Dean. Sam has been given NOTHING to excuse his behavior.
I can only conclude that Carver and the writers want us to dislike Sam and since more than half the fandom already despises Sam that is not hard to do. They may be planning a bait and switch with a reveal that will redeem Sam, but if so they have waited too long and put too much effort into making Sam irredeemable. Anything they do from here on out will be classed as “excusing Sam and not holding him responsible for his actions” Dean will be portrayed as the poor betrayed brother who doesn’t deserve the awful Sam as his brother. Dean will be seen as being sacrificed to making Sam a saint. The ill will that has been established by the first part of the season may be impossible to erase. And it sickens me.
Sam fans are not being harder on Sam than others, we simply see the writers as deciding to annihilate Sam’s character and we have finally admitted that this is what the writers want.
It is obvious to me that those who love Sam are unwelcome to TPTB. They want Saint Dean and Saint Dean they will have, while Sam remains the abomination.[/quote]
I am not sure, where you are seeing all this.
I seriously like Sam this season.
I seriously like the fact, that finally, they are stating, that no, Sam is not ok. That his sacrifice for the world and his brother actually WAS a sacrifice and not something, that goes poof with just a little bit of angel intervention.
I can so understand, where he is coming from and how he is reacting to Dean´s crap about Benny being the better brother.
had Dean not said this… Sam would most likely have been on his side concerning Benny.
And from Dean´s face? He knew it, as soon, as he had said it.
But you could see, how Dean, with that one statement again broke Sam´s resolve to just give Dean the benefit of doubt.
I love Dean, he was hilarious, he did, what he could in that episode, to do the right thing.
But by being petty and mean.. he not only hurt his brother (AGAIN!), but it all went down the drain.
And Sam? Sam was hurt. Was it right, to go after Benny, just because his brother was being a dick?
Dunno… Perhaps it wasn´t. But then, NOT doing things, because they are the sensible thing to do, makes us human.
And I love, that Sam is being portrait as human, wounded to the core, scared shitless and in need of help… but still trying to be the hero, he just is.
I didn´t like Sam in the second half of season 7.
He felt bland, one dimensional and boring.
This Sam?
Conflicted and struggling, but still fighting?
I love him. I really do.
I really can´t say I even remotely understand, where you are seeing all this.
Sam didn´t abandon Dean. Sam thought Dean was DEAD!
Only because Dean thinks, Sam abandoned him, doesn´t make it even remotely right.
I mean… Dean thought Gordon was an all around great guy ^^
Only because Dean was right, concerning Benny (and we still don´t know, if he truly was), doesn´t make Sam wrong.
Sam was very right in tailing Benny. He was very right in standing up for his brother and giving Dean the time to find out, what´s going on.
Going after Benny? Uh.. not so much.
But yes, I can understand why he did it.
Because that Benny = better brother comment?
Not good.
That´s not jealousy.
That´s worry.
That´s alot of anger.
That´s pain
They both have been petty, and really good at making bad choices.
And why?
Because they are brothers. Nobody can hurt the other like a Sam or Dean can.
And nobody is allowed to.
Dean making comments to Benny, how awesome a hunter his little brother is?
Loved it.
Sam shoving Martin against a wall, because he made a comment about Dean being a bad hunter?
Loved it.
THAT´s our boys. Both of them.
But Dean being mean and Sam reacting badly to it?
Yeah, sadly that´s them too.
I also think Sam was not going to kill Benny outright. The reason he took charge (of Martin) was because he wanted to see the situation without Dean. I believe Sam would have investigated the situation before just offing Benny.
I’m not actually bitter about the season, but I do understand some of what Percysowner is seeing and view some of what Alice sees very differently.
For example, Sam actually lobs the first emotional punch in the episode when he says any hunter worth his salt would tail Benny. That’s a shot at Dean. So Dean’s low blow at Sam doesn’t come out of the blue. The wasn’t a case of Dean being mean and Sam just reacting–both boys are in the argument equally.
The issue with Sam is that he felt no need to tail Lenore, he felt no need to tail Amy and he felt no need to tail Kate. His need to tail Benny isn’t tied to past characterization, which leaves the argument in Southern Comfort where Sam threatened to be the one to kill Benny. He seems to have kept up that line of thought more than I thought he would.
Since I like Benny very much, I also have an issue with Sam making decisions on whether Benny lives or dies based on his feelings about Dean, as if Benny’s life has no value. I sympathise with and understand why Sam feels so hurt that Dean would use his feelings about Amelia to save Benny. But I have a much harder time with Sam being willing to kill Benny to score against Dean because he’s hurt Dean is close to Benny. That’s not a reason to kill–and I’m not sure where this Sam has come from who thinks of vampires this way.
Also, on the question of Sam’s thinking Dean was dead–to me that’s poor writing unless they give us a little more on why he would think that. A flashback was needed to show Sam’s frame of mind. Because Sam didn’t assume that in Time After Time; he kept digging. And Dean disappeared with Cas, a formidable ally even when he’s suffering. Why Sam would not need to know what happened is a good question not only by Dean but by me. It’s so annoying to me that we’ve had flashback after flashback with Sam and Amelia and none to show Sam’s process of accepting Dean’s death, which would have been a process, as there was no body and no answers.
Interesting point Gerry. I really didn’t see that first comment about hunters tailing Benny as a shot at Dean, since it has seemed that the general rule for hunters has always been find a vamp, kill a vamp. (No hunter worth his salt would JUST tail a vamp, imo)… It’s mostly just been Sam (and lately Dean) that have seen areas of grey. Wonder if Dean took it as a dig? He stayed awfully calm, if he did.
But I do agree it’s interesting that Sam is putting this much effort into keeping an eye on Benny. Wonder if it’s because Dean has really told him so little about him that he’s got Ruby flashbacks of being manipulated by a monster? He’s worried Dean’s being used?
If I’m bitter about anything, it’s that I [b]definitely[/b] agree that they STILL need to give us a flashback to those first few months. They have not yet justified this “Sam didn’t look ” thing. It’s not any Sam we’ve seen over the years – no matter how bad his own situation was, we’ve never seen Sam leave Dean without obsessively digging/trying to save him. If he didn’t, the writers really do have to show how he got there.
(I’m still holding out hope that there’s more to come on that. Silly me.)
My feeling is since Sam was talking to Dean, and both of them know Sam has not always felt that out tailing monsters–including Kate–I think the “worth his salt” was a dig. It’s not the sort of thing Sam would normally say and the implication about Dean is pretty inescapable, since he didn’t put a tail on Benny.
I also don’t get the impression Dean is withholding any information about Benny now–Sam could ask, but he won’t because it’s a sore topic now after the fight. I think the episode showed that Sam’s tipping point on deciding to kill Benny was his hurt and anger at Dean’s feeling Benny is his only relationship which has not betrayed him, and those feelings must have been festering for some time to drive Sam like that.
I’m with you on expecting to see how obsessive Sam didn’t need to know what happened to his brother. Just give me a flashback on that, instead of husbands coming back from the dead.
Mind you, it sounds like I am not enjoying the season and overall I am! I loved the Purgatory stuff, I like the quest, I love Crowley. Castiel is being used well this year. I love Benny. It’s just that Sam and Dean are the heart of the show for me, so Sam’s story not resonating for me is a huge deal and piling more and more stuff on top of what doesn’t work doesn’t make it go away.
Wow, don’t know how “way” turned into “out”–but that’s what I meant!
Reply from Bamboo24:
[quote] if I DARE to criticize Dean I get jumped on [/quote]
No one, to my knowledge, has jumped on you for criticizing Dean. Not on this site. And if they are doing that on other sites, why continue to go there? And why then bring that nonsense to this site, which is generally balanced and produces charitable discussion from all angles. This is what I do not understand.
[quote]We are repeatedly TOLD and TOLD that Sam is in the wrong here and deserves the cruelty that Dean used to get him away from Benny. I can’t fight the fact that canon has stated explicitly that Sam has no good reason for his actions. [/quote]
Where has any of this been stated anywhere in canon?
[quote]since more than half the fandom already despises Sam that is not hard to do.[/quote]
That’s a pretty broad over-generalization. Again, if this is coming from comments made by others on other sites, why even read them? I know I don’t. I consider a lot of it to be trolling by immature people who have nothing better to do with their time than troll, pick fights with others online, and complain.
[quote]Reply from Bamboo24:
[quote] if I DARE to criticize Dean I get jumped on [/quote]
No one, to my knowledge, has jumped on you for criticizing Dean. Not on this site. And if they are doing that on other sites, why continue to go there? And why then bring that nonsense to this site, which is generally balanced and produces charitable discussion from all angles. This is what I do not understand. [/quote]
I have to agree with Alice. I think everyone is free to state their opinions of Sam OR Dean. In fact, as much as I worship Dean, I will be the first to say that in this past episode (8.09) he made 2 dick moves (the relationship comment and the Amelia text) that I only pray he can redeem later by doing something drastically fluffy (and OOC). But these mistakes on his part doesn’t change how I feel about his character.
I don’t think the writers make either brother to be saint nor devil. Just human, with good days and bad days, right choices and wrong choices. And if we truly love Dean or Sam or both, as most of us claim we do, then we accept the brothers for who they are. Flaws and all.
Hate Sam? HOW? To say the writers are trying to get the viewers to hate Sam is just absurd. The Huffington Post has an excellent review of the last episode, and Season 8 & the Winchesters series-overall relationship. I encourage all to check it out too.
I’m going to drop a note here and then run away like a coward, because Sam v Dean gets me upset, but what’s bothering me most about the season is that the emotional arcs don’t really seem to hang together, as though the writers themselves are finding it too much of a strain to switch back and forth between FBs and present time. They seem to be putting so much emphasis on what the FBs explain about where the season starts that it seems to me they are forgetting that they also need emotional development to occur and make sense in present time. If 8.2 Dean and 8.7 Dean, or 8.3 Sam and 8.8 Sam, seem to differ, that’s a development I need to see happening and comprehensible in the present timeline — the year before was just as much over in the first few eps of the season as in the most recent few eps of the season, it doesn’t explain in-season changes, nor does it substitute for them if I’m not seeing much of an arc current time. And yet it feels as though they keep throwing FBs at me as though this would solve everything. And the overall effect is a hugely dissatisfying emotional choppiness.
Also, I feel like the writers are letting themselves be backed into making pretty significant character decisions by what they need to have happen rather than what the characters would do. I’m still not sure that Sam not looking for Dean isn’t just a huge scale instance of that: it still feels more like something Carver needed for the Sam storyline he wanted than something that arose organically from how the character might be imagined. And I thought there was a smaller instance in last night’s ep with the text message. To me, Dean planning that in advance and having it in reserve in case he needed it is the really disturbing aspect of it, yet I don’t actually feel that that was an intended characterization note. I thought the writers just realized that, practically speaking, it hadn’t been something Dean could set up spur of the moment, so they went for advanced planning just to make it work.
Bottom line is that I just don’t find the season very well done. I think they are juggling too many balls, timelines, different subsets of characters, even different genres, and it just isn’t holding together. I don’t think they are malicious or out to destroy anyone or anything — honestly, I don’t feel that there is that much direction, coherence, and intentionality in the characterization one way or another! Some of the individual eps have set up interesting possibilities and dynamics, but to me there’s no flow in the storyline as a whole.
That’s my rant. I do have more positive and optimistic comments and takes as well, but this obviously isn’t the thread for them.
I think they are juggling too many balls, timelines, different subsets of characters, even different genres, and it just isn’t holding together.
Isn’t that what we were missing in Season 6 and 7? Again I just don’t understand any fan that is unhappy with Season 8–those fans that stuck with the show through 6 and 7. I could not disagree more with the comments above. But this is SPN so I agree to disagree 🙂
Great post, Etheldred! The season isn’t coming together for me either for all the reasons you listed. Honestly, the only aspect of the season that isn’t working for me is Sam.
I feel I understand Dean and what happened to him. I understand Benny. I understand Castiel. I’m at a loss when it comes to Sam.
I couldn’t agree more w/you that Sam not looking for Dean is not organic. It’s just not something Sam would have done, and no effort, IMO, has been put into explaining Sam’s decision to not look for Dean. Carver says he knows the viewers wouldn’t like that but asks viewers to be patient. I can only have so much patience. I need a story to go w/my patience, and we haven’t even gotten that.
Is it so hard to tell a simple, plain story for Sam? Is it so hard to give us his perspective?
I do think a big problem is that Carver wanted the story in a certain place. He wanted Dean to feel betrayed and to believe that Benny is the only one who hasn’t betrayed him. He wanted Sam to have lived a normal life for that year. And that caused a conflict because Dean would be irrational to blame Sam for living a normal life if Sam tried to find him and couldn’t and then did what Dean did between seasons five and six, settle down and continue to do research on what happened to Dean. If Dean got mad about that, he would be hypocritical from the start and have no moral standing. The only way for Dean to feel betrayed by Sam’s normal life is if Sam didn’t look for him.
The choice had to be made, make Dean look bad for resenting Sam’s normal or make Sam look bad for not even looking for Dean. The choice was to make Sam look bad. That has been the go to scenario in season 4, 5 and 6. So why not trot it out again. It put the character of Sam in a horrible light and there has been no attempt to change that, I would say perception, but in this case I think we are supposed to believe that it is a simple fact.
Then the show didn’t have the time to build up Sam and Amelia’s relationship and do Purgatory AND do Kevin and the tablets AND do stand alone stories. So we see a first meeting where Amelia comes off as a bad vet. We see a second meeting where Amelia is still antagonistic and the next thing we know Sam and Amelia are in bed and then without showing us how they got there, Sam and Amelia are in love.
With Lisa we got an entire episode devoted to Dean thinking Ben was his. Then we got Dean dreaming about Lisa in DALDOM. Then we got Dean going to Lisa to say goodbye in PONR. Then the first 15 minutes of EOMS we saw Dean in the relationship with Lisa and Ben. We saw Dean’s normal life with work and friends. We weren’t catapulted into a relationship that had not previously existed. With Amelia we had to fill in way to many blanks to figure out how the heck Sam decided he loved her, or how she decided she love him. We are told they are both messes, but we aren’t shown. We at least get the hint that Amelia was drinking heavily, but Sam was every bit as emotionally a mess as he was when he was hallucinating Lucifer, that is not at all.
Maybe they should have dropped the Heartache and Bitten and just done 2 straight flashback episodes, one for Dean in Purgatory and one for Sam and Amelia. Maybe they should have dropped the dog and had Sam run into Sarah from Provenance who married a guy who suddenly enlisted and went to Afghanistan and was reported dead. At least we would have had some feeling about Sarah, some connection with Sam so I could believe that he would just collapse into a relationship. Sarah and Sam shared their grief the first time they met, her losing her mother Sam losing Jess. Having them reconnect would have made this whole thing more palatable to me.
They really neglected the Sam side of the equation just to get the boys to the place where there can be a big blow out. Sadly to do that one of them had to be the bad guy and Sam was it again.
[quote]to fill in way to many blanks to figure out [/quote]I think they are more like Chasms
[b]ethelred[/b] and [b]percysowner[/b], I think you’re both right when you point out that it seems as though this year the writers have decided that they want certain plots to happen so they are moulding the characters to fit the plot rather than having the plot grow organically from the characters. This decision on the part of the writers has made S8 Sam feel clunky and somewhat unconvincing and it’s extended and ramped up Dean’s apparent distrust of Sam (even bringing back some issues with Sam that Dean had previously laid to rest) in order to serve the plot requirements. With characters as well developed, and with such complex backstories, as the Winchesters this decision to change the characters to fit the required plot-points does make Sam and Dean seem OOC quite a bit.
In a recent interview JC commented on the plot arc and perception theme of the “first 13 episodes.” Maybe something interesting will happen at this point that will change our perception of everything that has happened so far. I am hoping so. Although I am not as unhappy about the state of things as you are Percy.. I am not, nor have I been, thrilled with the “Sam never looked for Dean” plot point. Wildly OOC, IMHO. Still though, I am hoping like mad for something that will create a shift and give us some Sam insight that makes sense and is satisfying. I know you hate the mysterious Sam storyline, but I think that to a certain extent that is what is going on here. Sam is confusing, Sam is inconsistent, Sam is erratic because it speaks to something about his character that we can’t know about yet. I’ve said it before, if I am wrong, I’ll eat crow (or pie!) and bitch until the cows come home.
I hope you are right. Supposedly episode 13 is going to be incredibly “emotionally honest”. I hope that we get something other than Dean berating Sam for the umteenth time about all the times Sam betrayed him. A glimpse of Sam’s thoughts would be nice, but frankly not really expected by me.
I’m thinking Dean will probably let loose on Sam again and tell Sam what he really thinks about him, which probably won’t be too pretty.
I think the purgatory FBs are done and we will be getting more of Sam’s FBs filled in when they return in Jan. it’s still early in the season and they needed to have things build and flow. I don’t get why you think Sam looks bad this season or any other. He thought Dean was dead not missing so nothing to look for. Remember even Bobby said when it’s your time go,go. Just because one brother or the other gets mad doesn’t make what they say gospel. They just have really poor communication skills. Sam did a lot better explaining things to Kevin and Dean was a lot more understanding of Cas. They’re just not good with each other sometimes.
[quote]Maybe they should have dropped the dog and had Sam run into Sarah from Provenance who married a guy who suddenly enlisted and went to Afghanistan and was reported dead. At least we would have had some feeling about Sarah, some connection with Sam so I could believe that he would just collapse into a relationship. Sarah and Sam shared their grief the first time they met, her losing her mother Sam losing Jess. Having them reconnect would have made this whole thing more palatable to me. [/quote]
Wow percyowner. This didnt strike me at all but now that u mention it, it would have seemed so much more palatable and relatable to the Sam we know. Wish they had taken that route. I’m not impressed with Balaban’s acting either. Maybe am being too quick to judge but JP and she dont seem to have any chemistry. It just is not working for me. On the other hand (like Dean) I was rooting for Sam and Sarah to hook up 🙂
The only thing I disagree with is that Sam is being made the bad guy here. I really dont see it that way. This season is all about perception. They (Sam, Dean, Cass & Benny) have done questianable things and they are all probably justified from their individual perspectives. No one is coming off as being completely right or completely wrong. I know Sam’s sl is not a supernaturally driven one (for a change) but it is still relevant and I feel its given JP a lot of oppourtunity to show his emotional side (in acting).
So take heart and keep the faith.
Percy, your idea about Sarah would have been SO MUCH BETTER than Amelia, and it would have made a little more sense. I was telling my sister that they should have had Sam hook up w/Sarah again rather than introduce this new character. JP and that actress had loads of chemistry.
I still would have major issues w/Sam not looking for Dean, but I, at least, would have been able to buy the relationhip. And since Carver seems primarily interested in promoting this relationship, I’d rather be interested than bored. Sam and Sarah are interesting. Sam and Amelia . . . not so much!
I 100% agree with what you wrote etheldred! Well said. I end up either scratching my head or downright angry at the inconsistencies and am sometimes baffled that the fans and critics who like this season do not seem to see what I see.
I read some of the very thoughtful, positive reviews and find that sometimes they contain a lot of assumptions, a lot of added subtext that is from speculated emotional motivation based on previous seasons not on what is actually being dramatized in the current episodes. I really think that those that are able to do that as they are watching are enjoying this season. I on the other hand can only see these questionable writing and resulting acting choices. I wish I could read a great review and be persuaded, but it just does not work that way.
I have noticed that some reviewers for example questioned inconsistent behavior and plot points earlier in the season and looked to them as clues for hidden subtext, but now that some of that subtext has been disproven by subsequent episodes, those same critics completely overlook their own earlier reservations instead of still seeing them for the inconsistencies they were. If everyone sees all these clues that we all think surely must mean something because they are so out of place in tone and behavior, but then they all turn out not to mean anything at all, does that not prove in and of itself some poor writing?
I generally did not care much for Season 7 by the way, but did not feel quite as upset about that as I do this year. Maybe because I expected so much from Carver and also because last year the plot and myth arc were a mess and pretty uninspired, but the relationships felt intact and not downright hostile. Somehow that makes it feel like there is more at stake.
Flashbacks are tough to do on TV. They often come off as cheesy. I loved the first season of “Being Human”, but hated the second due to the constant flashbacks. As that was also Jeremy Carver, I was worried. While I’m not thrilled with the format I am not turned off by it like I was worried I would be. Sam’s FB story line started out badly but has steadily improved. Dean’s flashbacks were just ….hot and attractive. LOL
I agree whole heartedly though that this story needs to be told in real time. I think we’re there.
As for Sam, I love him this season. More then I ever have. Possibly because he’s coming off as a grown man. He’s got troubles and fears, but he’s not going to take any crap for the choices he’s made anymore. Loving him. I originally was worried as well as not looking for Dean, is a big deal, but then I think of what we know of purgatory. We know you can open the doors and let everything single out on an eclipse with virgin blood and the blood of a purgatory native. Even if Sam knew where to look that’s a tough order to fill.
I think Dean is coming off worse this season, as he’s always struggled with “big brotherness” or my way or the highway disease. I think the simple living in Purgatory made that much worse, but he’s getting better. He’s getting more human and ultimately Benny getting more vampy. I just don’t see the bro vs. bro stuff others do. They are both kind of violent and emotional.
OUCH. Was there a thread to vent for Season 6 and 7 while they were in (not even) mid-season? Sorry, but ANYONE that puts Season 6 or 7 ahead of Season 8, EVEN IF the rest of Season 8 the camera is pointed at the headlight of the Impala the rest of the season, there is just no comparing the quality of the series again in Season 8. The “i’s”are dotted again and the “t’s” are crossed. I’m guessing Alice you are upset in what seems to be the Amelia story is “real?” I’m still not convinced all is as it seems in Sam’s story. 9 episodes in to Season 8, I am in heaven and Jeremy Carver is God.
I think you are missing the point. She is not making a statement about the season. There is just a LOT of venting going on and she is giving them a free forum to do just that.
Alice, thanks for creating this thread 🙂 , I think it’s a great idea to give folks a chance to discuss these issues. Could I make a small suggestion though? I think that calling it the ‘bitterness’ thread sounds a bit harsh, could we perhaps call it the ‘dissatisfaction’ thread? Speaking for myself, I’m not bitter at what’s happening in S8 but I do feel dissatisfied with the turn that certain things are taking this season.
I agree with you. I think it should be called the “anxiety venting” thread.
[b]Prix[/b], yeah that’s a good point – I feel anxious about how things will turn out this year and that’s because I love SPN so much and don’t want to be put off it in any way *wibble*
Hi Leah,
I understand but my confusion is:
1. WHY are people venting? Season 8 is light years ahead of Seasons 6 and 7. Our show is back to the episode to episode quality I have missed the past 2 years. Anyone that cannot see that, I just can’t relate to.
2. There is ALWAYS A LOT of venting going on with SPN fans, in every forum, on every SPN site 🙂 It’s what makes the fans the best of any show I follow.
Hi Nate- I think the venting veered a little more to the bitter and overly angry side than usual thus the “Bitterness Thread” so all could vent their spleen out if they so desire.
I agree with you about S8 and the last two years, there is so much to love about this season and some flaws but enjoying the heck out of it.
Thanks Leah!
My one complaint about Season 8 is the Sam flashbacks. I did get a lot into the buzz that the flashbacks were all a dream, or some sort of not-reality. I was hoping Martin was brought in because Sam was at the mental hospital too, and Amelia would have been his doctor, or something like that. WHY was the lighting SO light last week in the flashbacks? I was somewhat let down that all of that seemed to be real, with Amelia’s appearance at the end….but I STILL am hoping there is more to it that what seems to be real. I just don’t think Sam would totally give up looking for Dean, that just does not feel right to me. IF there is more than meets the eye, they do need to reveal that soon.
Yep Nate we are on the same page. That is still the problem with this season. I am not as radical about it as some but these issues need to be addressed pretty quick. I am still hoping for a breakdown of some sort before Amelia entered the picture but please be “more than meets the eye”!! 🙂 Something twisty and perhaps supernaturally induced.
Nate, I just want to say that saying Season 8 is better than 6 and 7 is your opinion. But there are commenters out there don’t agree and have problems with the direction of the show currently and are allowed to vent their frustrations just as much as those who are are loving the current season can give their views. That’s also the beauty of a thread like this: if you can’t relate then you don’t need to read what others have to say.
Of course fans can vent their frustrations, look at any threads on this site and vents are there. And saying I don’t need to read what others are commenting on, if I can’t relate, is an oximoron. I can’t know if I relate if I don’t read actual comments. The beauty of these threads is I get the same right to vent my disagreement with those I don’t agree with.
Yes, I guess it it a bit of an oxymoron, but I just meant that if you see “Bitterness Thread” and you aren’t interested in currently reading bitterness, you don’t have to. I’m just saying that, IMO, it’s good to have somewhat of a catch all for this kind of thing, since a lot of general complaints are so far appearing on episode reviews and such and I feel it might be a good thing to have them all in one place. If you do choose to read and comments on this thread that is, of course, entirely your prerogative.
Hi PaintedWolf,
I’m always curious to read both the positive and negative comments in the threads. I should have made clear I was not a fan of the “Season 8 Love” thread either. If you put all positive or negative comment eggs in one basket, it does not promote conversation or debate. Every comments would be “GOD I hate this and that,” with no one countering that. I like hearing both sides, I don’t think we need to separate anything here on WFB, both sides are always represented. That’s just my $0.02, Alice is the boss 🙂
Hi, Nate, I also enjoy reading both the positive and negative side of things. But as you said, it certainly is Alice’s call, and from my view, perhaps easier to monitor if it’s all in one place, but that’s just me.
Personally, to my mind, the tendency of SPN-fans to vent ‘in every forum’ is a factor that makes them some of the worst fans. The venting often wears faces I don’t like at all.
Then again, I don’t know other fandoms’ forums.
[quote]Personally, to my mind, the tendency of SPN-fans to vent ‘in every forum’ is a factor that makes them some of the worst fans. The venting often wears faces I don’t like at all.
Then again, I don’t know other fandoms’ forums.[/quote]
Venting goes on in every day life it is human nature and yes it does happen in other fandoms. It will because there is a diversity of people with different views. I dont quite understand what the problem is with this thread ? Alice created a appreciation thread and nobody had issues now she has created one for those that feel differently.
Personally I think there is some good things this season and aspects I havent liked .
What are you enjoying this year, Sharon, the only aspects I like this year are Benny and Castiel, and Dean’s brief Purgatory arc was good. I don’t have any problems w/Dean’s characterization. He seems to be in character for me. KT and his mom are okay.
I don’t really care about the tablets. I’ve been over Crowley since S5 though Mark Sheppard is a great actor.
Sam’s arc is simply horrible. I’ll just leave it at that b/c my detailed opinion can be found elsewhere. Unfortunately, Sam’s terrible arc is definitely impacting my enjoyment of the show.
Ironic I commented here too, since I have almost no complaints with Season 8 (I STILL want more to the Sam flashbacks, I was thinking Sam was in the mental ward with Martin, and Amelia was his doctor…or something like that…fingers still crossed), but all commenters rant in any thread :). I don’t see how it’s vital to let people throw hate here. I guess maybe to keep it contained here….which again does not happen.
You are lucky its not like s04 atleast some of them will end here.You don’t have to read all of them.So count your blessings.
I am sorry Nate, you make some great points and I am glad you are enjoying this season, but I don’t like the implication that those of us that have well thought out issues with it somehow are “throwing hate” just because we are posting on this thread. All I see is interesting discussions and yes some rants. If we can’t safely vent some of our worries on this thread, where else?
Having problems with Season 8 also does not automatically imply that we liked Season 6 of 7 better. I don’t think I have read anyone make that argument yet.
Well, I have no shame in admitting that I liked S6 better than this season.
I can also say that while I hated a lot about S7, the brothers were in a good position to me, which means a lot. Their relationship was not openly hostile and as distrustful as it is now. I felt like the brothers actually liked each other last year. I don’t feel the same this year. And because I primarily watch this show for the brothers, I haven’t been very pleased w/the destruction of their relationship, esp. since there seems to be no reason for it. The tension and conflict doesn’t feel natural or organic; it’s all very contrived to me.
Alice named this thread “Bitterness Thread.” I prefer promoting “love” rather than “bitterness,” because the “bitterness” is in every thread. I don’t think it needs a special place on WFB, but Alice is the boss and it’s gotten lots of good discussion so there you go. I enjoyed your comments above, and ethelred and percysowner’s too, I just don’t see what you are all seeing. I don’t see the inconsistencies you are talking about in the characterizations. Sam and Dean’s relationship will always be complicated. The character arc, which we are just in the middle of, is a highlight of Season 8 for me.
The show started out being about two brothers who got thrown into hunting monsters because of their parents. One embraced the life from the beginning and the other embraced it because of a need for revenge. They were very different but most of the time they worked through their differences with chats at the end of the show by the car. They fought hard and they looked out for each other. But now the hunting is almost incidental to this unending drama of who did what to who and whose feelings are hurt more and over and over and over we have Sam getting mad and storming off and Dean running after him so Sam can be bitchy with him. Lisa was right when she said they had the most unhealthy relationship ever. I loved Soulless Sam cause he stopped whining and now they have made Dean just as whiny. Benny is a breath of fresh air because he talks and acts like an adult. He isn’t blaming anyone else for his problems. They are what they are. When the brothers are written like adults with a difficult job and the ability to offer some comfort to each other because they come from the same place it will be a great show again. Which is why I keep watching because I am ever hopeful. That and Jensen Ackles is too cute. Lol
I agree with you about Jensen! 😛
All I ask for, and keep hoping for, is for the boys to show that they LOVE each other, and that each one KNOWS that they are LOVED by the other, and I want to SEE this myself on the TV screen.
Then, they can have all the friends they want and I’ll be happy as a pig in shoes!
Not every minute of every episode of course, but please I want to hear and see this before the friggin’ series ends! :sigh:
[quote]The show started out being about two brothers who got thrown into hunting monsters because of their parents. One embraced the life from the beginning and the other embraced it because of a need for revenge. They were very different but most of the time they worked through their differences with chats at the end of the show by the car. They fought hard and they looked out for each other. But now the hunting is almost incidental to this unending drama of who did what to who and whose feelings are hurt more and over and over and over we have Sam getting mad and storming off and Dean running after him so Sam can be bitchy with him. Lisa was right when she said they had the most unhealthy relationship ever. I loved Soulless Sam cause he stopped whining and now they have made Dean just as whiny. Benny is a breath of fresh air because he talks and acts like an adult. He isn’t blaming anyone else for his problems. They are what they are. When the brothers are written like adults with a difficult job and the ability to offer some comfort to each other because they come from the same place it will be a great show again. Which is why I keep watching because I am ever hopeful. That and Jensen Ackles is too cute. Lol[/quote]
[b]Prix[/b], great summary of the things that made me fall in love with Supernatural and then all the things that frustrate me about Supernatural 😀
For me, S4 was when I felt that the writers’ desire for epic drama, and almost brotherly conflict, got in the way of good character development and portrayal for Sam and Dean. I still enjoy the performances the Js give in every episode and, on the whole, I’ve still found lots of stories to enjoy in every season, but I’m still hoping beyond hope that the brothers’ relationship will get back to one where they comfort and love each other.
The thing which attracted to me to this show was ,it was about two brothers who had their differences but loved each other.Season1 2 and 3 were beautifully done…I liked s04 but did not like how they showed the progression of Sam’s story.Season 5 was very very good again same problem with sam’s story but the last episode made it moot.Season 6 also good (Soulless sam) season 7 had a slump in between but showed promise at the end.Season 8 Started good but again important part of Sam’s story is not shown yet,will not be shown?Dean is still angry with Sam, throwing jibes left and right and Sam is a maybe…I think this is what sam feels then no something else…Is sam jealous,caustic with monsters after his experience with them, plainly panicked of loosing Dean or wants out from hunting and grudgingly there with Dean or not …god knows…atleast Jared’s expressions and acting is brilliant as always.
[quote]anonymousN:
I wouldn’t say I know for certain, because there could always be a curveball down the road. But I feel fairly confident in my understanding of what they are trying to depict.
I think I do understand what you are saying. You want a scene like we saw in S4’s “I know what you did last summer” where we clearly saw Sam’s grief and mental/emotional meltdown after Dean went to hell. Not exactly like that – but something that’s maybe more clear to you, that spells it out. I don’t think you are wrong for wanting something like that.
I think Sam’s reaction is different this time than what it has been in the past, precisely because of all he’s been through. I also think it’s a different method of storytelling – not to mention an entirely different story. And still we don’t have all the details. You may well get that scene you’re looking for. Or…the storytelling and explanation may be more subtle. I prefer the latter actually. I like the depth and the enigma. One of my favorite things about SPN has always been how we often learn about what’s going on with the brothers by the parallel stories of the people they meet on the hunt. I think a lot of that is going on this season, too. I feel like a lot of the explanation for Sam’s actions in present time is found in the parallels of the flashbacks. And Sam himself has said a lot. But again, I understand if you don’t like that particular style.[/quote]
First, I absolutely do NOT want another IKWYDLS. One episode containg 5 minutes of Sam grieving and the rest of the episode about the wonderfulness of Ruby was one episode too many. Dean got an entire season to show why he broke and made his deal, Sam got 10 minutes max and the character hasn’t recovered since.
I’m glad you like subtlety, I can appreciate it too, except the show only does it for Sam. We’ve had two entire episodes dealing with the goodness and tragedy of Benny. We were immediately shown that Castiel is being manipulated and controlled by the new angels, because God Forbid! that anyone think badly of Cas EVER again. We have seen the sad plight of a teen aged werewolf. We have had a long discussion of how hard it is to be married to a serial killing 2,000 year old man. We have Dean going on and on about how Sam betrayed him and bringing back every hurt that he has ever felt and telling us repeatedly that Benny is better than Sam. We even get to see how hard it was for Dean in Purgatory. But Sam, Sam gets subtle or let’s face it no investigation whatsoever. We know that Sam ran. We know that Sam says his world imploded, but Dear Lord, lets not allow us to see what Sam went through, Sam has to get subtle and unexplained. Sam has to look as though he doesn’t care about Dean and his life is never shown. We don’t see Sam mourn because that isn’t subtle enough. We see Sam recovered enough to start a life with Amelia, but NOTHING about his suffering because Sam is less important than Benny and Cas and Kate and Aztec wife and Garth and really everybody this season. You want subtle, I want anvils, bigger than the ones Fred Jones created with his mind. I want Sam to speak and I want to see Sam’s pain and what led him to his decisions.
[quote]It was already too little too late in s04 the fandom marinated in Dean’s opinions for too long in s04 and i see the same happening now too.I have not seen such delays in Dean’s story where there is a risk to his character being misunderstood.and that is how showrunners should treat their protagonists.(eg The Dean angst before CRD,even Dean’s guilt for having wronged Cas was dealt quickly ).So why torture me with subtle depiction for Sam.If you see how many theories were aired for sam’s actions in this website alone you will understand how unsure we were and finally when we go into hellatus all the theories went wrong.(except maybe mine-nostalgia)[/quote]
This is the big issue for me. Season four decimated Sam’s character and IMHO it has never recovered and frankly, the writers never even tried to redeem Sam. Oh they had him jump in the Cage, but to this day all posters talk about is how Sam didn’t apologize to Dean enough and HOW DARE Sam even suggest that maybe Dean’s actions in season four affected Sam and he reacted by going to Ruby. This season started by having Sam commit the greatest crime in the world of Supernatural, he didn’t even look for Dean. No real reason why, the excuses he gave(I thought you were dead I was alone, I didn’t have anyone) have been shown to be false as Garth and Martin and everybody under the sun keep showing up to prove that Sam had plenty of resources. And Dean and Sam have both come back from the dead so many times that assuming Dean was dead makes Sam an idiot, because they won’t even show us WHY Sam thought Dean was dead.
Again, I have had enough subtle with Sam to last a lifetime. Let Dean get subtle or Cas or even Benny. I want the full scoop and the writers refusal to give it is ruining the show for me.
[quote]First, I absolutely do NOT want another IKWYDLS. One episode containg 5 minutes of Sam grieving and the rest of the episode about the wonderfulness of Ruby was one episode too many. Dean got an entire season to show why he broke and made his deal, Sam got 10 minutes max and the character hasn’t recovered since.
[/quote]
Well, I didn’t see IKWYDTS as being about Ruby. (I hated Ruby, btw). I saw it as shedding light on Sam’s state. We also learned about Alistair’s identity in that episode.
Also, I know many fans who felt that Dean’s story didn’t get enough attention in S4. We got bits and pieces, but they thought (and I did too, to an extent) that Hell should have had a more demonstrable effect on a character. In many ways I think Dean’s post-Hell experience is comparable to Sam’s-post-wall-break experience. Many fans felt like we got bits and pieces, but not enough. And I can appreciate that. I even agree, to an extent. But I’m not bitter about it.
[quote]I’m glad you like subtlety, I can appreciate it too, except the show only does it for Sam. We’ve had two entire episodes dealing with the goodness and tragedy of Benny. We were immediately shown that Castiel is being manipulated and controlled by the new angels, because God Forbid! that anyone think badly of Cas EVER again. We have seen the sad plight of a teen aged werewolf. We have had a long discussion of how hard it is to be married to a serial killing 2,000 year old man. We have Dean going on and on about how Sam betrayed him and bringing back every hurt that he has ever felt and telling us repeatedly that Benny is better than Sam. We even get to see how hard it was for Dean in Purgatory. But Sam, Sam gets subtle or let’s face it no investigation whatsoever. We know that Sam ran. We know that Sam says his world imploded, but Dear Lord, lets not allow us to see what Sam went through, Sam has to get subtle and unexplained.
[/quote]
Regarding the secondary and guest characters thing – where would the show be without them? I like Benny – good or evil, he’s a great character on the show – that’s just my opinion. I find him interesting and he’s played by a talented actor. I like Castiel too, but I have frustrations because I think his character has been so stretched that he no longer fits in a believable way. I hated what S7 turned Cas into, and I don’t think his character can recover from that in my eyes. If I could have traded Castiel with Bobby in S7 I would have. Regardless, I think having more characters for the boys to interact with is a thousand times better than how it was in S7, where it was just Sam and Dean riding around in a car depressed all the time because everybody was dead and they had no friends. More characters spices things up. Makes it interesting. And helps us see different facets of the brothers we wouldn’t otherwise.
As for your desired “anvils” – okay. I get it. You want more than what you are getting. 🙂 But at the same time should we discredit what we DO get, just because it isn’t [i]exactly[/i] what we might have wanted? Can you honestly say – speaking from a point of reason – that we’ve seen NOTHING that depicts Sam’s suffering or explains his mindset?
[quote]We see Sam recovered enough to start a life with Amelia, but NOTHING about his suffering because Sam is less important than Benny and Cas and Kate and Aztec wife and Garth and really everybody this season.
[/quote]
As for Sam being less important than Benny and Cas and Kate and Garth and Aztec wife – these characters are not in every episode. Sam is. We see Garth maybe 2 episodes a season. And Cas in what, 2-3 out of 9? And Benny – he’s just a part of the season, like it or not, but he doesn’t have the same screentime as Sam. I’d say a large chunk of time has gone to Sam flashbacks – the problem is, some people aren’t interested in those flashbacks because of what they entail. I can understand that. But it’s not that Sam is less important.
[quote]but to this day all posters talk about is how Sam didn’t apologize to Dean enough and HOW DARE Sam even suggest that maybe Dean’s actions in season four affected Sam and he reacted by going to Ruby.
[/quote]
Oh the posters. Ever hear the phrase “haters gonna hate”? If Sam jumping in the Pit to save the world wasn’t enough to redeem him, then obviously [u]nothing[/u] is going to be good enough for these posters. So why let them rile you? What matters is – do YOU think Sam jumping in the Pit was enough to redeem him of any S4 wrongs – or that he even had anything to redeem himself of?
I think jumping in the Pit was more than enough. I think anyone who thinks otherwise either doesn’t get it or is being deliberately obtuse. All that to say – I think Sam’s character “recovered” the moment he jumped in that Cage. And no one can convince me otherwise.
[quote]This season started by having Sam commit the greatest crime in the world of Supernatural, he didn’t even look for Dean. No real reason why, the excuses he gave(I thought you were dead I was alone, I didn’t have anyone) have been shown to be false as Garth and Martin and everybody under the sun keep showing up to prove that Sam had plenty of resources.[/quote]
I think this is missing the point. Because really – Garth? Sam never really had a relationship with him, and his perception was that he was pretty bumbling – which is pretty much true – Garth is a loveable hunter who tends to “stumble” onto the truth. Martin? He was still in the looney bin at the time. So that doesn’t count. Sheriff Mills? She’s not a hunter, and Sam wouldn’t drag a civilian into that life. Other hunters? Many would likely still remember him as the one who started the Apocalypse. Everyone else was dead. And the point of it is – all those people? Sam wasn’t close to any of them – not like he was with Dean and Bobby. So to me, it’s a believable assertion.
[quote]And Dean and Sam have both come back from the dead so many times that assuming Dean was dead makes Sam an idiot, because they won’t even show us WHY Sam thought Dean was dead.
[/quote]
Assuming Dean was dead does not make Sam an idiot, IMO, just because they’ve come back from the dead so many times. If anything, all it means Sam should’ve just waited around for the inevitable phone call because Dean would have eventually been plucked out of where-ever he was. Which…he was. As for showing us why Sam thought Dean was dead…well…he did vanish in an explosion of Leviathan goo. And Crowley suggested as much.
I can’t stand it when people rag on Sam still about stuff in S4. I don’t think it decimated his character. I found Sam’s actions in S4 very understandable and relateable and I do think he’s redeemed himself.
Dean obviously still has issues with Sam but that’s an ongoing issue/problem with Dean’s character, not Sam’s.
My Hubs, who is the youngest of four brothers, watches SPN and enjoys the show but he doesn’t get involved in any of the — lets say, detailed analysis that we fans do — so his take on it is very interesting to me and I use it as a sounding board for moderation.
I asked him if he thought the show was painting Sam as ‘wrong’ and Dean as ‘right.’ He doesn’t. He said basically that Dean is acting like the big brother. Hubs saw it as Dean [i]thinking[/i] he’s right — whether he is or not remains to be seen. According to Hubs, Sam didn’t do anything wrong. In fact, he thought the phone thing was a ‘real dick move’ and that Sam would be fully justified if he hauled off and clocked Dean one when he sees him again.
Hubs doesn’t think Sam is an idiot. He thinks that the brother interaction is “so natural (a depiction of a younger and older brother), I don’t even question it.”
I’m with you on not liking Sam’s s/l , Percy, but if Hub’s take as a causual viewer is any indication, you don’t have to worry that Show is FUBARing Sam. I dunno, it kinda made me feel better to talk to Hubs about it, so I thought I’d share.
I like your Hubs take on this. Speaking as the oldest of three I can say that it is ingrained to try and sort out the others’ lives even though they absolutely don’t want it…
It is really hard for an eldest to not do that. In our cases we live in three different countries now – and we get along with each other just fine 😀
Sam has always known that he has to put up with Dean making decisions and being controlling because Dean literally can’t help it. And anyway Sam is stubborn, Dean knows he can’t win sometimes.
Brothers! Sheesh!
😀 Hubs said that older brothers can’t seem to help themselves! He also said that they don’t ever think that they’re acting that way either — which sounds like you’re one up on most there 🙂 but I think it describes Dean pretty well.
Dean tends toward being judgemental and ‘my way or the highway’ and his reason for trusting Benny is basically ‘because I said so’. Its frustrating for Sam and frustrating for Dean. Its not really about being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ on the particulars of a given situation.
Each has been deeply hurt by the other. Neither knows what to do about it. And every disagreement brings it all back up to the surface.
Well, my sister is also a casual viewer, and she thinks Sam [i]IS [/i] being thrown under the bus.
She hates Amelia and is not enjoying this season. In fact, she’s only watched a couple of episodes. She’s not as devoted as me so she’s turned off the show. That said, she loves Bobby and Castiel, but doesn’t care about KT or his mother. She doesn’t think the “Sam doesn’t look for Dean story” makes sense. Basically, she’s not interested in watching a show w/the brothers constantly at odds.
A lot of people aren’t liking the writing for Sam. You can find their comments on other boards, etc. Some people like the season. Some don’t. I haven’t found too many that are enjoying Sam’s character assassination.
IMO, Sam was trashed in S4. That said, I think Kripke had him redeem himself, and I never started hating Sam b/c of his S4 actions. But those who never really liked him started hating him b/c of Season 4, and that has NEVER changed. There is a large number of viewers out there who hate Sam. That’s just a fact. They may not frequent this site (or know how to temper their comments when posting on this site), but Sam hate exists. Those who view Sam as a selish person who has never loved Dean as much as Dean has loved him can view Carver’s version of Sam as perpetuating that belief!
I love Sam. I hate his storyline AND the way he’s being written. Unlike some, I can’t get what I need for this story from a couple of lines of dialogue – “my world imploded” “I ran” “we’re just two messed up people who found each other.” That’s fine and good, but I need to [u][b]see[/b] [/u] evidence of that so I can get involved/invested in the story. Having Sam say these things but not showing them is not, IMO, helping Sam’s story. The audience needs to sympathize w/Sam, esp. since – for this show – he did the unthinkable and inexcusable by NOT searching for Dean. For that reason, we desperately needs his POV. I sincerely hope Carver doesn’t think Sam’s time w/Amelia is accomplishing this b/c it isn’t. I want to [i]see[/i] how Sam’s world imploded and what he felt. I want to know why he ran. I don’t want to be told in vague terms what happened. Sam’s story is weak. The actual storyline itself is weak, and the execution is weak!
At this point, all I see is a Sam who didn’t bother to investigate his brother’s disappearance. I see no real reason why he made this decision. That’s still a mystery that may or may not be answered. For all I know, Carver feels he has provided a satisfactory answer, and for you, that may be the case; it isn’t for me.
I see a Sam who seemed rather nonchalant about Dean’s return. Could that reunion hug have been more unemotional and disconnected? You want me to believe that Sam thought Dean was dead, but then you direct such a unemotional, routine, bad hug btw the brothers. Okay . . . .
I see a Sam who seems rather inconvenienced by his “dead” brother’s return. He doesn’t seem happy that Dean’s alive, and he doesn’t want to hang around Dean. I see a Sam gently hinting that his resurrected brother should hunt alone or w/someone else b/c he’d rather not be bothered. What’s that about? And I’m not trying to say Sam has to hunt if that’s what Dean wants, but again, I just want a story. If Sam is going to be so miserable while hunting w/Dean, I’d rather not see him do it.
I see a Sam constantly daydreaming about a rather boring, uninteresting woman w/whom he had a very dispassionate, unengaging relationship.
I see a Sam who seems irrationally upset with his brother’s vegetarian vampire friend. Mind you, this is the same guy who has consistently touted since S1 that not all monsters are evil and that he and his brother shouldn’t just kill everything they see, so what exactly is his beef w/Benny? Why does Sam even care about Benny? It’s not like Benny’s in the backseat of the Impala or rolling w/them. If he were, I would understand Sam’s obsession w/him. Sam met the guy once. Benny is not bothering them. It makes Sam seem petty and jealous, IMO. If there are other reasons such as some of the ones others have posted or speculated, I wish Carver would just have Sam state his problems w/Benny. Because I honestly don’t see ANY reason why Sam should care this much about Benny. I just don’t see it.
I see a guy who very rudely leaves a mentally unstable person in the woods w/no transportation or info on why he just got stranded. That was just straight rude, and I really don’t believe Sam wouldn’t say something to Martin. Sam is not a jerk so why have him act like one. I’m not saying the boys can don’t jerky things b/c they can; I just think leaving Martin in the woods was OTT douchey!
I see a Sam who, again, after having already committed to hunting a few seasons back, suddenly and w/o explanation, hate hunting and wants a normal life. Why? Dean’s “death?” Fine . . . explain it then! Write some dialogue for Sam. Give him a POV b/c he’s sorely lacking it.
What’s most important is I don’t see Sam Winchester! He showed up in the episode when Cas returned, but he went away again. I don’t know or understand this “Sam” that Carver has created. I don’t think I like this “Sam” that Carved has created, but I can’t even say that b/c I haven’t been permitted into his headspace. I just want to see Sam again.
No matter how much Carver assassinates Sam, I will always love the real Sam Winchester, but I won’t hesitate to complain about the hack job they’re doing w/his character this year. Honestly, it’s making the show very unenjoyable for me. I only watch out of habit and a genuine curiosity to see how the Winchester story ends. Maybe, Kripke can return for the last season of the show or give the showrunner some input.
In response to my comment — I don’t know what you’re talking about in your response here.
You’ve made it very clear here and in many other threads that you don’t like the Sam S/L storyline.
Your sister agrees, with you? Great. If she hasn’t watched the whole season, then she’s even more casual a viewer than my Hubs.
He’s enjoying the season, it doesn’t strike him that Sam is OOC, he’s indifferent to the Amelia s/l (which I really dislike) and he’s interested to see what happens next. He’s kinda infuriating in a way. But he helps me temper my reactions and reminds me that my reading of the episode isn’t the only way to ‘see’ it. This makes the show more enjoyable for me, even when I don’t particularly care for something.
I’m just giving an opinion and discussing the show.
OK
I will always love Sam Winchester too. I’m pretty sure I don’t agree with your definition of the ‘real Sam Winchester’ though.
I understand, Melanie. We all have different interpretations and watch for different reasons.
In my view, the “real Sam Winchester” would [u][b]always[/b] [/u] look for his brother. Short of a mental breakdown, curse, or spell, I will never believe that Sam wouldn’t have investigated Dean’s disappearance as he as in the past.
So, unless that is retconned or adequately explained, I will always have a problem w/Carver and this season’s version of Sam.
Oh I agree with you about that. I absolutely do not think that Show’s explanation for Sam not looking for Dean is at all sufficient.
However, I can spin scenarios where Sam would not look for his brother — but not having a place to start? Is not an adequate reason nor, to me, a believable one.
I guess the difference between us on this topic is that I can accept that he didn’t look for Dean without feeling that the character has been ruined or maligned. I honestly do not believe that it is the intent of the writers to malign Sam or present him in an unsympathetic light.
My main problem with Sam’s storyline is that its boring me. Its not telling me what I want to know about Sam and it skipped over the part I most wanted to see — which was picking up exactly where S7 left off.
Yes Melanie- I am right there with you on most of that comment except that I am not finding Sam’s story boring. Just perplexing.
I absolutely hate the fact that they are telling us Sam didn’t look for Dean and I really hope they do something about this sooner than later. Sam would have, at the least, done research ( his forte!) and given his IQ, would have figured that Dick went back to purgatory so maybe Cas and Dean went with him. Anything!!
I also hate the fact that they hooked him up with Amelia. I also came to this show because of the brothers. If I wanted a show with a love interest, I can watch any other show presently on TV. I also find him having a serious relationship with a woman very very strange given his history with women. His relationship with Jess, Ruby, Madison all ended in disasters for the women (and the world in one case). He is aware of what happened to the women he slept with as soulless Sam and the fate that came to them. He also would have children that would still be part of the Cain/Abel bloodline. Why would he not run a thousand miles before bringing some of that to another woman or their children?
I also hate the face that when Dean went to hell, he hooked up with Ruby and now, when Dean goes to purgatory, he hooks up with another woman. Can’t say I appreciate the pattern.
Also not liking that Cas keeps showing up again to save the day.
That said, I am still a fan of this show – I haven’t liked all the seasons as much as others or all the shows as much as others but I’m in it until the end (which is hopefully not for a long time). I also appreciate having a venue to chat with other fans and a place to vent is nice too!
My disappointment with season 8 lies almost entirely with Sam’s story.
Whether we think that Sam not looking for Dean is OOC or not, it’s certainly a departure for the character and looks unsympathetic on the surface. That’s why I think we absolutely had to see the immediate aftermath of Dean’s disappearance, and how Sam became convinced that Dean was dead. “You were gone and I ran” , “my world imploded and I ran”, “you saved me”, is all woefully inadequate.
I can’t say that I was looking forward to a relationship story for Sam, but I was looking forward to him opening up to someone, so we could know what he thinks. However, we didn’t get anything out of those flashbacks. The ONE time Amelia asked Sam if he wanted to talk about Dean, the scene ended before Sam started talking! We didn’t see a love story, or even a story of two damaged people finding solace with each other in the wake of loss. What we were shown is a series of events telling us what happened: how they met, that they moved in together, that the husband is alive. There was very little dialogue between the two, no tenderness, no touching, not even a freaking love scene!
And then there’s the Benny conflict, which IMO, has been tilted completely to Dean’s perspective. We get this elaborate back story for the character and are shown exactly why Dean trusts him. Sam doesn’t, but is given very little dialogue to explain himself. “He’s a vampire”, “You killed Amy”, “Us trusting monsters hasn’t ended well”. That’s about it, and again, completely insufficient. Sam required much better dialogue (why not talk about Ruby and how she tricked him?) to counter the extremely sympathetic way Benny has been portrayed.
I read somewhere a blogger’s opinion where she felt that Dean is over explained and Sam is under explained, and I feel that way too. Sam doesn’t get dialogue, he gets bullet points, 2-3 word answers that cannot possibly explain his thought processes or his issues. He’s the one that has made the most questionable decisions over the years, and yet Sam is given the least character development. I don’t understand why.
I’m not bitter about this season either, I quite like it. I like Sam and Dean apart more than I like them together so them being at odds with each other suits me fine.
I’m mostly disappointed in the fact that JC said Sam and Dean would be more proactive this season and so far I haven’t seen that, still seems like they’re reacting to everything to me. I would have liked them to be more involved with the mythology instead of having that be the minor characters storyline.
I like Sam’s arc this season, I like Amelia and I like the potential that Sam may have something outside of Dean for a a change. Do hope she sticks around for a long time and I hope Sam gets to add to his universe a bit more like Dean has. I so wanted him to get to keep Riot, maybe he should get his own car then he can have Riot along with him? But yeah hoping the Amelia thing works aout so that Sam has something to work towards when the hell gates are finally closed.
My biggest disappointment this season is how very little so far is about Sam, Dean, and them together. Let”s start with Sam. That he thought Dean was dead (or at least was unreachable) and ran is perfectly fine with me, but it seems they have done a very poor job of explaining that. Sam said in one of the episodes that he was upfront with Dean about why he didn’t look. I thought I had missed something because they never really showed that at all. In interviews Jared has given lots of valid points, but the actor shouldn’t have to fill in the gaps. And prior to episode 8 he had barely interacted with any characters at all. If he isn’t actually having conversations with people how are we supposed to know what’s going on with him?
Dean’s story started out more promising. He was more ruthless, he was twitchy, he looked on edge. What happened to that? After the second episode all of that disappeared and he seemed fine. Huh? Did purgatory change him at all?
Castiel, in the two episodes he’s featured heavily in, has had more exploration than either of the brothers. We know why he stayed in purgatory, how he feels about heaven, and we know there is a mystery about the angels and him.
And then we have Benny. Before the season started the writers were talking about how Dean made this friend in Purgatory who was going to be a dark character who was going to keep us guessing. And then they devoted an entire episode to him and his story that made it clear that he is a good and sympathetic character. The only one who doesn’t know that is Sam because Dean hasn’t told him anything . So when Sam has trouble trusting Dean about Benny the audience already knows the outcome. What is the purpose of stacking the deck against Sam and his point of view like that?
It simply doesn’t make sense to me that Sam and Dean wouldn’t talk about these things. Dean told Sam in one episode that he wouldn’t understand about Purgatory. Come on. How many times can the writers play that card? Of course he would understand. And he would understand about Benny if Dean talked to him about it. And Dean would understand about Amelia. Remember Lisa and Ben? I just think the conflict feels very manufactured and much less a true reflection of the characters we have gotten to know over the past 7 years.
[quote]I stared at the screen with raised eyebrows and probably even muttered aloud, “Really?!” when Sam and Dean had their exchange over the Impala offering up Amelia’s name, rank and serial… er, I mean her full name and the town and state where she lived. Sorry but, no… that was not about Sam finally opening up a little to Dean. No. no. and no. Who would say that… that way… that place and time? [/quote]
Actually I found Sam giving the full information to be very believable. When Dean and Sam met Dean asked if there was a girl. When Sam said yes, Dean said what was her name and Sam told him Amelia.
Then for the next 2 months Dean keeps talking about Sam leaving him for “a girl” which is a way of making Amelia sound like someone who wasn’t important enough to have an identity. Then Dean has the spectre encounter and is ramped up on anger and again says Sam left him for “a girl”. Not some that Sam cared about. Not someone that Sam built a life time, just a disposable, unnamed girl. That would be like saying Sam went to college met a girl that died and went back to hunting. Sam went to college fell in love with JESS and was devastated by her loss. I took Sam’s her name is Amelia Richardson and we lived in Kermit Texas as a way of telling Dean, no she wasn’t just a girl, she was a person and we had a life.
Dean didn’t need the details about Amelia, all he really needed was to get Sam’s phone, find out how Sam listed her in his contacts and grab the phone number so he could spoof it. If he wanted more he could have run an Internet search on Amelias who are vets in Texas. Actually all he had to do is search Sam’s browser history and he would pull up all the “concern not stalking” material that Sam had already found, although Dean may not have known that.
Taken for exactly what it is:
Sam lost everything and ran. Sam left hunting because he has always wanted to. Sam had no idea where to look for Dean. Sam met a girl and fell in love. Sam thinks other people (Kevin) are not his responsibility and other hunters will take care of problems.
All of these, taken at face value make Sam seem selfish and a jerk.
Now, there could very well be real reasons for what Sam did. If the viewers were given these real reasons then we could understand Sam better. We would get why he made the choices he did.
Sadly, we’ve been given nothing. I think the flashbacks were suppose to do this, but they are poorly written with nearly zero exposition, and total zero tension. There is no evidence as to why Sam would want to even date Amelia.
(season five “Free to Be” Sam dated that girl because she insisted he did, but at least she didn’t put him down first to try to get him to date her)
I think the writers may have waited too long to explain Sam.
After thinking about the mechanics of this I realized that Dean didn’t have to be a superhacker. Amelia’s name came up in Sam’s contact list when he got the call. Dean could have done the superhacking I described, or he could have gotten Sam’s phone and simply changed Amelia’s number for the number on the burner phone. I rely on cell phone only. My daughter has had the same number for 4 years and I can’t tell you what it is off hand. For a while it was speed dial 2 and now she’s #1 under contacts. I have her number written down, but if I get a call from my daughter, I don’t check the number matches. Sam hasn’t tried to call Amelia that we know of, or if he has she hasn’t picked up. Sam twigged to something being off on the phone call, because Amelia was obviously in no trouble at all, so that meant she didn’t call, because Amelia has not been portrayed as cruel or the type of person who wouldn’t send a never mind I’m fine text after calling for help.
There are two ways that Sam could have been twigged to the fact that the phone had been messed with. It’s possible, that when Sam really looked at the number the thing that jumped out at him was that the area code was wrong. Like I said, I don’t know my daughter’s phone number but I do know the area code. The second way is that he may have just returned the call to see who made it. I actually thought it was Don rubbing it in Sam’s face that he and Amelia were happy and if Amelia had answered the phone, Sam would have realized that. When Dean answers, well that means Dean set Sam up.
[quote]Amelia’s name came up in Sam’s contact list when he got the call. Dean could have done the superhacking I described, or he could have gotten Sam’s phone and simply changed Amelia’s number for the number on the burner phone. [/quote]
Or just added a second number. LOTS of my contacts have multiple phone numbers. Doesn’t mean he deleted the number(s) Sam had for her.
Doesn’t mean he did not delete the number(s) Sam had for her. Can tell for another six weeks if they give this issue any importance
Well, if we learn that Dean deleted Amelia’s number from Sam’s phone, then you’ll hear me calling him a jerk. I’m assuming he just programmed her number into another phone or maybe just her name.
Dean didnt think he was responsible for any innocents when he quit hunting to spend a year with Lisa and Ben. He literally ran from hunting because he couldn’t handle the life any more. He also still had Bobby and knew Cas was still alive. If Sam is selfish for moving on then so is Dean.
Also Dean only ever said he was miserable without Sam, drinking and what not when Sam was in the cage. We never actually saw anything but him shacked up with Lisa and Ben moving on with his life, hanging out with his friend and I think there was a reference to him making a Halloween costume for Ben. We all took him on his word that he had been miserable, so why not Sam when he says his world imploded? I’ve seen more evidence of Sam being sad and lost without Dean than I saw Dean miserable without Sam while he was in the cage.
The big difference with Dean is we were given time to see him interact with Lisa and Ben. We saw that he’d built a family. It wasn’t just Dean saying he “found something”. I also think Dean and Lisa had chemistry with each other and Dean treated Ben as his own. Big difference.
So perhaps all of the fault lies in how Amelia is portreyed. She is incredibly unlikable. She yells at Sam for hitting a dog. Have you seen how poor Kermit Texas is? I bet there are a lot of stray dogs. She would have been greatful he brought the dog to her right away, not angry that he accidently hit it! Like you can control for that?
Then she picks on his clothes? Really, that’s all the writers can give us?
We never hear any deep conversations, never see her do something to redeem her earlier bitchiness, never see much affection either.
It’s empty. Sam’s story is empty and all that is left is this guy who seems like a jerk.
Look, I LOVED season 4 Sam. Why? Because he was decisive, and although woefully misguided, he thought he was doing everything for Dean. This character is flawed and that’s beautiful. But his life is so empty now, his struggles are so banal.
Dean left hunting because Sam made him promise that he would. He told Sam and Bobby he never stopped researching how to bust Sam out of the cage, even though he had promised he would not try.
The issue I have with Sam is that he didn’t need to find out what happened to Dean. One possibility is that he died, but it’s not the only one and given what the Winchesters have been through, not the most likely one. In Time After Time, Sam did not assume Dean was dead. He kept digging. Why not this time, especially as Dean disappeared with Castiel, so he has a pretty formidable ally with him?
If I knew why Sam didn’t have to know what happened to Dean, the rest of the story would follow a lot more naturally. I don’t see it as mature that Sam decided not to look; I see it as out of character without more information given. A flashback on this would have been very nice.
I agree they should have had Sam say ‘I looked but I couldn’t find anything’ that would have sufficed for fans, they wouldnt have needed any flashbacks or evidence just a simple statement, after all they took Dean on his word so why not Sam? Yeah right! Fans never would have believed Sam on just his word, they dont believe now that he grieved for Dean based on his word.
[
The issue I have with Sam is that he didn’t need to find out what happened to Dean. One possibility is that he died, but it’s not the only one and given what the Winchesters have been through, not the most likely one. In Time After Time, Sam did not assume Dean was dead. He kept digging. Why not this time, especially as Dean disappeared with Castiel, so he has a pretty formidable ally with him?
that’s just it though. in time after time, sam witnessed dean running towards chronos and just vanishing. it wasn’t an explosion. he simply disappeared before his eyes. there really was no reason for sam to think his brother had died.
in sotf, the goal was to kill dick roman. when dean stabbed dick roman in the neck the whole room began to tremble. there was an actual blast and both dean and cas disappeared, as well as dick roman. there was no reason for sam not to believe his brother in that blast, cas as well for that matter. the very fact that cas was gone too and neither came back, seemed to seal the deal for sam that he was utterly and truly alone. he’d lost everyone.
i’m of the belief that there is more sam story to tell. i have a feeling we’ll get the truth when we come back from hellatus.
this last eppy seemed to be the set up for the big confrontation that the boys need to have. it’s during this confrontation that i believe we’ll find out what actually happened with sam that nite he left the lab til the moment he hit the dog.
there’s two unaccounted for sam months….that’s a long time and i don’t think he just spent that time driving.
jmo of course.
You’re being kind. I give it a “F.”
Sam didnt make Dean stay with Lisa for a year if stayed just out of a promise then that was not a great way to treat Lisa , he stayed because he chose to .
The rest I agree with in the sense that we were told Dean looked although never shown and I do think not having Sam look is a misjudgement but it fitted in with the story they wanted to tell and create the seeds of the discourse we see now between the brothers.
I think once Dean made his decision to follow his promise and go to Lisa, he tried his level best to make it work. Dean’s all about loyalty to his relationships, not taking them lightly. However, Sam or no Sam, the relationship was destined to fail because Dean could never take himself off the playing board of the Supernatural because it’s not just his decision–as we saw with the djinns. And equally because he would never be able to find meaning in working as a carpenter. The stronger he got as he recovered from the mess he was when he went to Lisa, the more he needed to do something that fulfilled him. For Dean, that’s saving people, not building houses. I thought the dissolution of that relationship was realistic and sad and there were no bad guys, just hurt people realizing they need different things.
But Dean was out of hunting for that year. He only stepped back in when Souless Sam returned up to that point he was not involving himself and rather focusing on his relationship with Lisa and Ben.
One of the issues I have with Sam’s year is the accusation he allowed innocents to be harmed because he wasnt hunting and that is a gross unfair statement considering the same happened when Dean was not hunting .
Exactly. The only reason Dean went back to hunting was because Sam came back, even when he found out Sam was alive he wanted to stay with Lisa and Ben. If the Djinn attack hadnt happened, Sam wouldnt have shown up and Dean probably still would be with the Braedens. Like people have said Dean went to them on a promise and he keeps his promises and also the other excuse used that he’s nothing but loyal therefore by that argument Dean would never have left the Braedens and gone back to hunting therefore allowing people to die. He would have forgone doing the right thing just to appease his dead brother who assumed Dean wanted normal/a family with the Braednes because Dean had run off to see them just before he was a bout to say yes to Michael and Dean had also dropped a hint or two over the season that he wanted out of hunting and wanted a family.
I guess what I’m saying is innocent people dies when both gave up hunting, Sam isnt any more responsible for those deaths than Dean was. Its massively unfair to say he was. People have argued constantly that Dean is not responsible for everyone while arguing that Sam is/should be? Really?
Dean was out of hunting for that year, definitely, though he was never comfortably out of hunting. Lisa said she knew the minute Sam came back, her relationship with Dean would not survive. I think it was doomed whether Sam came back or not, as Dean identifies himself as someone who saves people. He could never be a carpenter for long.
I think Dean was surprised Sam decided not to hunt because he had a responsibility to Kevin Tran and he had no pre-existing relationship or promise to honour to interfere. He just drifted until he hit the dog.
But Dean STAYED out after Sam returned. Soulless Sam did want Dean to come with him, but Dean decided to stay with Lisa. And to say he wasn’t comfortably out of hunting doesn’t mean he wasn’t out of hunting. He packed away his weapons. He didn’t go on one hunt. His big gripe is that people died when Sam didn’t hunt. However people died when Dean didn’t hunt and the fact that he felt bad about it or wanted to hunt but didn’t doesn’t make them less dead.
Now frankly I’m with Sam on this. There are other hunters out there. The only big bad that Sam might have had a leg up on were the Leviathans, but there has been NO indication that they were a problem. There is a time when someone has done enough. Some of the first responders at the 911 site are probably eligible to retire now. Should they be guilted into not retiring because they have the most experience dealing with huge tragedies? I personally don’t think so. At some point people have the right to decide that they have reached their limit. My only problem is the lame idea that Sam never looked for Dean. It may be that this is just what Carver wants and will never change, but it will always be OOC to me. But walking away after everything Sam has done and sacrificed to save the world is fine by me and Dean pulling the guilt trip of you must save the world doesn’t impress me.
But Dean at that point was worried that by being in their life, he’d endangered Lisa and Ben–he told Sam he didn’t know how to best protect Lisa and Ben, by staying or leaving, but if he knew, he’d do it. And first he stayed and then he left, and neither decision helped protect his family. He decided the best way he could protect them in the end was to hunt the things that hurt people, so that was his emotional journey.
I think it makes sense that Dean would be astonished and not happily so that Sam would lump Kevin Tran in with the people he has no responsibility to, as he and Sam brought this 17 year old kid into the mess. I think Sam ended up thinking the same, so Dean and Sam aren’t that far apart on that aspect of the guilt trip.
I think Dean’s abandonment issues are in play with his issue with Sam leaving hunting as a whole, and that is his problem to sort out, not Sam’s. But he also thinks Sam will change his mind on whether hunting is worth it for him. He’s biding his time on the hunting. The underlying issue that keeps popping up with Dean is his feeling that by not looking for him, Sam left him for dead. That’s where the guilt trip is. Dean was surprised Sam wasn’t hunting, but he wasn’t hurt until he asked Sam if he’d left hunting after he’d looked for him.
[quote]as he and Sam brought this 17 year old kid into the mess.[/quote]Huh????
Kevin was in this mess before Sam and Dean even knew who he was and he would be in this mess even if he never even met Sam and Dean. Its not their fault he’s a prophet, can read the word of god and Crowley wants to use him to his advantage.
The specific way Kevin’s prophet status came into play was by Sam and Dean cracking open the clay to expose the Word of God. He may very well have been made a prophet another way–it depends on what Roman’s plans were–but the way it did happen was via Sam and Dean, and they knew they were risking something when they heard the thunder as they hit the clay. That doesn’t mean they had many options, but it does mean they have a responsibility to Kevin. They used him as a tool from the moment they realized they had awoken a prophet, so also seeing him as a 17 year old kid helps keep them human.
So perhaps when you don’t know exactly what will happen as a result of any of your efforts to fix a problem – and in fact it invariably makes things worse – then maybe the best decision is to drive away in a car, settle down in a motel, find a girl and a dog and throw away your phones? 😀
Or like bringing back a vampire from Purgatory. I would argue that bringing back a creature that you KNOW has the potential to be dangerous means you should not just drop him off in the middle of nowhere and make no attempt to see whether or not he is, in fact, “keeping his nose clean” and you certainly shouldn’t get all huffy when someone else checks up on the vampire and reacts when people start dying from vampire attacks.
totally!
But that actually only proves, that Benny is NOT Dean´s brother.
They risk something every time they try to save something. The one thing they did know was that prophets are supposed to be protected by angels. I know it was just a teeny tiny point in season four, but when Dean was in the hands of demons and in Hell, Sam tried everything to free him, but the only thing that worked was an angel rescue, so why would this suddenly be any different? Chuck (if he wasn’t actually God) was activated because Sam and Dean started their journey, but no one seemed to think they should spend their lives watching him because they were responsible for him becoming a prophet by existing.
It’s not a guilt trip. Dean is hurt Sam did not look for him. The conversation in “Exile on Main Street.”
Sam: I told you not to look for me.
Dean: “OF COURSE I looked for you!”
I also have a problem with what appears to be Sam did not look for Dean (I STILL have hope there is more to it, and he did look, or something), but there is no guilt trip here.
The fact that someone is hurt doesn’t rule out a guilt trip. Guilt trips are a was of ACTING when you have been hurt or are angry. Dean could have come out, directly told Sam how hurt he was, and had a big blow out instead of the constant needling. If he is so hurt he can’t forgive Sam, he could let Sam go, instead of telling him that all Dean wants is to have Sam riding down crazy street, riding shotgun, and hunting for the rest of his life. There are plenty of ways to react to his feelings about Sam that don’t involve guilting and shaming Sam.
Plus, Sam screwed up. Now he is doing what he can to fix that. It accomplishes nothing for Dean to keep letting Sam know that he is LESS. I’m not saying it’s not human, but to say that it isn’t a guilt trip or that it is productive is something I just don’t see.
Hi percysowner,
I like all of your comments and we are both obviously passionate about SPN. I thought Dean was really hurt Sam did not look for him. If I factor in the fact Sam also quit hunting all together, then a “guilt trip” is accurate. I would also say Dean has been passive-aggressive, which those two things are closely related. I don’t think they were ready to have a conversation (or longer conversation) about how hurt Dean was. The first part of the season Dean was very PTSD and did not want to talk much at all. Neither did Sam. And these brother’s history is not one to share and tell until things are on the verge of punches. I think needling Sam is very human nature. Productive, no, but human nature and consistent with these characters history. We start to see some improvement in “A Little Slice Of Kevin,” but all that is out the window after “Citizen Fang.” I don’t feel this new fight is created just to cause drama. With the way things are a year after of being apart, and the quick revels of Sam’s year off, they agian have a lot of stuff to work out. This on top of hunting and trying to close the gates of Hell……..
Sam and Amelia have been separated so long, she thought that giving “her ex” her number would be a bad idea. I won’t be surprised if it turns out that around a year and a half has passed since Sam and Amelia have seen each other, because the two of them were over quite early in “the missing year.”
I think you are mistaken here a little racestaffer at least about the timing anyway. It was shown in Blood Brother during a flashback that Sam met Amelia “a couple of months” after Dean disappeared. I take that to mean 2 or 3 months at the most. They then were in a relationship until Don came back, coincidentally within days of Dean’s return. I take this to mean that Sam and Amelia had been in a relationship for 8-10 months, a fairly significant amount of time; long enough that they had taken the step of moving in together and that the relationship was over only mere days before Sam and Dean met back up again. Sam and Amelia have only been separated since Sam’s been back on the road; if we can assume real time for that, only 2 or 3 months at the most.
[b]Racestaffer[/b], I’m not very clear on the progression of the Sam storyline, because I’ve found the flashbacks to his time with Amelia a little confusing (and boring 😆 ), but here’s what I think happened:
– I’m starting to think that the day on which Sam decided to leave Amelia (to allow her the chance to reconnect with NotDeadDon) is the same day we see in S8 ep01 in which Sam left Amelia in the middle of the night to go to the cabin (where he found Dean).
– We were shown that Amelia found Sam packing to leave, and I think what we were not shown was that they then went on to have emo break-up nookie, and Sam left while he thought she was sleeping (and Amelia didn’t try to stop him leaving even though she was awake because he’d already said he was stepping back to allow her the chance to get back with Don).
– So, Sam going to the cabin when Dean was there is just a ‘happy accident’ which allowed the brothers to meet again. I think that Sam’s most recent flashback to the end of his relationship with Amelia shows that Sam was not expecting to find Dean at the cabin and that he went to the cabin to get away from Amelia rather than to find Dean. To the SPN writers it might also explain Sam’s lacklustre reaction to finding Dean alive (i.e. Sam’s depressed because he and Amelia broke up) however, that explanation doesn’t work for me because if I found my dead brother alive again, after a year of thinking he was dead, I’d be feckin chuffed to bits about it even if I’d just broken up with someone 😮
Note to self: I cannot believe I have just spent some time trying to analyse the Sam and Amelia (and NotDeadDon) storyline when I detest it so much and find it boring (I’m consoling myself with the thought that I’m mostly analysing it with reference to Dean and Sam and their relationship 😆 )
Although I can’t stand it either, you did a perfect recap of the timeline as I also think it happened! 🙂
I haven’t read the reviews yet or any of the comments yet. So this is just my reaction to the season so far. I didn’t post praise of Jeremy Carver and almost didn’t post on this one for the same reason. For me it is too early to say for sure weather I’m cheering for JC or not. I’ve seen lots of good things. I given all but one episode an 8 or better(and most could easily get moved up to 9 or 10), but I have to see where this is going for me to fully judge. I feel pretty confident that SOMETHING is up with Sam, but can’t really judge what I’ve seen until I see where its going.
I have had this same feeling at this point in the season several times and have been happily surprised (or at least relieved) by every season but last season. I loved most of S7 as individual episodes, but the season story arc and especially characters arcs fell flat for me. So I’m still a little reluctant to ooze praise, but I have lots of hope.
I still need more of Sam’s POV (which I’ve heard we’re getting) and a explanation for his behavior that makes me believe it. That makes me go “OH YES, that makes perfect sense” or even “OH NO, poor Sam, what he’s gone through.” Something that feels like Sammy. Then I will be shouting HALLELUJAH Jeremy Carver!
episodes 9 and 10 are the episodes that will deal with Sam’s perception. I think that means Sam’s perception of Benny not being trustworthy, not trusting Dean’s judgement out of Purgatory and his relationship with Amelia which I think will be cleared up in episode 10. Other than that the whole Perception thing I think has been played up to be more than it really is. Beyond episode 10 the show will be dealing with the mythology including the introduction of the Winchester side of the family.
I’ll wager there isnt actually more to tell regarding Sam’s storyline, I think the Amelia storyline will basically be over in episode 10 (though I wouldnt put it past the writers to do a lame Lisa/Ben type pop up for her later in the season) and I think Sam will conced he was wrong and go back to just being hunter/reaserch guy.
I see Sam and Dean falling back into their old pattern by episode 11 once they just decide to deal with the bigger picture and stow their crap. Also expecting Dean to tell Sam that ‘one of them should be happy’ off course it wont mean much since Sam will have accepted hunting as his future again.
Bringing here from several threads
[quote]It is very sad to me that that is how you see their relationship and basically would rather see the series end then having the brothers try and mend this admittedly broken relationship. Have “Sam” go to The Walking Dead where he will be happier. Have you seen that show? Meet a couple of times a year. That means SERIES OVER. Do you really want that?[/quote]
No, I don’t want the series to be over. Millions of people are still enjoying it, and the fact that I’m not doesn’t mean that a show should go off the air. There are hundreds of shows I don’t watch and there are many that I did watch at one time and gave up on. I have no desire for any of those to be cancelled because others are enjoying them. That doesn’t change the fact that I view the destruction of the relationship between Sam and Dean to have reached a place where I find it very hard to believe that it can realistically be repaired.
But I have seen portrayed this year is an extremely toxic relationship for BOTH brothers, which is what I said. Sam’s personality is one that leaves Dean feeling insecure, unloved and constantly betrayed. You can say that this only started with Ruby, but it was there from season one, where Dean believed that Sam wanting a life that made him happy was abandoning Dean. Sam has hurt Dean and betrayed him, but he did everything he could to mitigate the damage and to save the world. Sam is independent and Dean has tremendous trouble with that. In order for Sam to be what Dean needs, he has to change who he is and that isn’t fair. Dean really doesn’t let go of hurts. Some people can’t. But for Sam to have to live knowing that all his mistakes will never be forgiven isn’t fair either. I know Dean has TRIED to forgive Sam, but that isn’t his nature and I can’t ask Dean to change who he is any more than I can ask Sam to.
Currently we have Sam hunting when he doesn’t want to and Dean wanting to hunt with a brother he doesn’t trust. That seems to be the least safe option available. For years I have argued with people who thought the show would be better if Sam were just written out. I still disagree, but season 8 and Carver has convinced me that Sam and Dean may love each other, but that their personalities are so divergent that they only make each other miserable and that they can not be happy relying on and constantly being in the presence of each other. Dean has FOUND better brothers in Benny and in Cas. Sam has no one else, but does not need to live a life with someone who is unable to forgive his failures. No one should live with that pressure.
[quote]I can’t imagine viewing the Winchesters’ relationship as being this toxic and this one-sided, quitely frankly. Neither Sam nor Dean is each other’s victim or big bad wolf. They’ve both made mistakes and treated each other badly, and they’ve both done great things for each other and proved their brotherhood. We are so radically far apart in our views I’m guessing it is best to just agree to disagree and move on.[/quote]
I am not trying to convince you or anyone else, this is what I believe and we do disagree. Yes they have done wonderful things for each other and tried to prove themselves, but at this time, all Dean sees is the pain Sam has caused him. Frankly, I have very little idea what Sam sees with Dean because, yet again, Sam’s thought process is very shrouded. We have seen Sam’s actions, but had very little insight into why. There are those who believe that Sam doesn’t trust in Benny because he is jealous and resentful that basically he is willing to murder an innocent vampire for petty reasons. To me, this is totally evil intent, others disagree. There are those, like me, who say Sam is trying to make certain Dean doesn’t make the same mistake he did with Ruby. Who knows, Sam is silent on his feelings and all we have are Dean’s beliefs being openly stated.
Both Sam and Dean are being passive/aggressive. It’s probably a response to being raised by John who was pretty much “it’s my way or the highway”. Sam fought openly with John, but as he has failed Dean he has become less confrontative and more passive/aggressive. He hits at Dean with any hunter worth his salt would watch Benny and Dean hits back with all my relationships have gone to crap. That is not a healthy way to live, but they keep tiptoeing around each other, afraid or unwilling to be upfront with their grievances.
I have loved this show for a long time. The fact that I am still posting and arguing my points means I am still engaged enough that I have some faint hope that the story will move to a place where I can enjoy it. That in spite of my beliefs, the writers will pull this off and I will believe that Sam and Dean can build a healthy, strong relationship. When I stop making posts like this, when I start posting only to answer factual questions, or stop posting altogether, then I will have given up on Supernatural. I am trying to hold on and see if the writers plan will take the show and the relationships to a place that I will enjoy. Right now, this is an effort for me, but I am still holding on. If the story does not go in a way I like, I will leave, but that IN NO WAY means that I want the show cancelled, only that I no longer enjoy it.
Thanks for your reply. The idea of splitting them up or one of the actors leaving the show (lumping together a couple of different comments by more than one person) would absolutely mean the end of the show. Period. They have always been the heart of the story and still are. I respect the views of others but when people put out scenarios that would bring the show to an end it saddens me. Can’t help it, I still love it. Still love both characters and hurt for both this year. Can’t wait for next episode. Sorry, again, that you and others don’t.
TO me, what makes the show, is the relationship between the brothers… and the way it evolves, sometimes breaks down, but brings them together in the end.
ANd I must admit, I enjoy season 8. Yes, it´s painfull in times, but I see the road, they travel, I see that there IS a road… and it makes me just look forward to see, where it will take them.
I´m looking forward to the moment, they find each other again.
Hi Fluffy2107,Leah,
I agree with percysowner.I am just tired of waiting for Sam’s POV.Just this once I thought we will get Sam’s story first..but no even this time I have to wait for Sam’s story.They can give whatever story they decide to Sam and Dean but I am just frustrated that Sam’s story will be (maybe) told in the second half.I wanted to be sure not guessing whether Sam is jealous of Benny or It’s because of his experience with Ruby or both…but I have to wait again..If the payoff is going to be not equal to the wait then it is going to be disappointing.
My concern is that it is already too late to have a decent payoff and not only for Sam. NINE episodes of Sam failed Dean, Sam didn’t care enough to look for Dean, Sam abandoned Kevin, Sam doesn’t trust Dean, Benny is a better brother than Sam, Cas gets forgiven in 3 episodes, Sam only cares about Amelia. All this is a lot to get over with any kind of gotcha, Sam really does love Dean and is a good guy. Lets face it, if Benny goes on a killing rampage, it will be “If you hadn’t watched him in the first place then he wouldn’t have started, it’s all your fault Sam”. If they can’t help Kevin it will be “If you had looked for him when I was gone this wouldn’t have happened, by trying to kill his mother has nothing to do with it.”. Sam has to choose between saving Amelia and Dean and chooses Dean “If you had never gotten involved with her she wouldn’t be dead and I (Dean) wouldn’t have been in trouble,”.
But Dean has been damaged in my eyes as well. If I’m exaggerating and somehow Dean discovers that Sam did do something to save Dean, or Sam did have a breakdown that prevented him from functioning and Dean says, “I finally understand and forgive and trust you,” my reaction will be “Yeah, until the next time Sam disappoints you and then you will find another “better Brother” and bring back all of Sam’s flaws,”. Because Carver has convinced me that NOTHING that Sam can do will appease Dean and that Dean, at heart, is unable to let go of his grievances toward Sam. I never believed it before, but Carver has me believing it now and I don’t know how to back away from what is established canon.
If jumping into the Cage to save the world, if risking insanity and death by facing his Cage memories to make sure Dean isn’t alone isn’t enough redemption in Dean’s eyes to let go of Sam’s wrongs, then nothing is and Sam might as well give up right now.
[quote]My concern is that it is already too late to have a decent payoff and not only for Sam. NINE episodes of Sam failed Dean, Sam didn’t care enough to look for Dean, Sam abandoned Kevin, Sam doesn’t trust Dean, Benny is a better brother than Sam, Cas gets forgiven in 3 episodes, Sam only cares about Amelia. All this is a lot to get over with any kind of gotcha, Sam really does love Dean and is a good guy. [/quote]
They have set themselves up at this point to need not only a doozy of a reveal to explain why Sam didn’t look, but also a doozy of a reveal to explain why he hasn’t told Dean about it all this time.Â
[quote]If jumping into the Cage to save the world, if risking insanity and death by facing his Cage memories to make sure Dean isn’t alone isn’t enough redemption in Dean’s eyes to let go of Sam’s wrongs, then nothing is and Sam might as well give up right now.[/quote]
This is one of the things that doesn’t ring emotionally true in all this. It isn’t as if Hell is an abstraction to Dean. Wouldn’t it be enough for Dean to resent Sam just for not looking? Did they really need to have him rake up the past?
I agree. These are BROTHERS. They have a very complicated relationship. Lately Dean is turning into John’s “my way or the highway” way of thinking. He proved that, but also that he loves Sam and cares for Benny by protecting them both by sending Sam the text. Dean was calling the shots, and why not? Sam is not in the frame of mind to be the leader right now. These characters are evolving as they should at their age and everything they have gone through. Anyone who is losing faith (or more faith) in the show in season GR8, after the uneven quality of the last 2 seasons, I can’t change your opinion, but I will never understand it. SPN is firing on all (most) cylinders again, and January 16th cannot get here soon enough.
I can’t agree that sending a cruel text to Sam, but nothing to get Benny out of town being protective of both. It may have been protecting them physically, but it was at the expensive of Sam (who has had everyone he love die) having to live with the terror that the same thing is happening again.
As to Sam not being in a place where he can lead, I can make the same argument that Dean, who has just returned for a constant combat situation is also not in a frame of mind to lead. They should be in a place where they share leadership, but Dean isn’t able to do that at this time.
But Dean saved Benny from Sam, and saved Sam from Benny, by sending that text. Sam’s frame of mind was he was going to kill Benny. We have been shown Benny to be good, or trying to redeem himself, and does not deserve to be killed just because he is a Vamp. Dean accomplised getting Dean out of town rather than having a (fatal?) confrontation with Benny. It was a no brainer that Sam would jet off, so what would have been an easier way to trick Benny into the one leaving? There isn’t an easier way to keep S and B apart. In the big picture, Dean was correct in wanting to protect Benny because he does not deserve to die. Sam did take leadership with Martin, but I’m glad we didn’t (yet) get a S and B showdown. Dean in manipulating the situation for the best outcome was showing he was the better to lead the overall situation, even though that meant manipulating Sam.
So, hypothetically, if Sam had realized that Dean intended to kill Amy and he sent a text to Dean from “Lisa” saying “I’ve just remembered everything and something is trying to get in”, would you have said Sam was right because he believed Amy didn’t deserve to die AND he knew that Amy was a creature that could kill people and so was trying to protect both Dean and Amy? Because right now, you are saying the fact that Dean believes in Benny is the only criteria that can be considered. If subjective belief is what we rely on, then it has to work both ways.
Being cruel is being cruel. Also, if Benny is such a good friend and Dean is assuming that Sam hasn’t already killed Benny, wouldn’t it be better to get Benny with Dean and then make it clear to Sam that Sam will have to go through Dean to kill Benny? I trust you don’t think that Sam would kill Dean or allow Martin to kill Dean just to get to Benny. Dean had options that didn’t involve crushing Sam emotionally.
WHEW….let me take one at a time.
Disclaimer: I did not like Amy, I would have killed her. I really believe much of the backlash against her is because Jewel Staite was SO GOOD as Amy–but GOOD at being the sweet misunderstood monster. I didn’t believe her as reformed. She was killing “bad people” but they were still people. It was for her son? Her son’s life is not above those of “bad people.” It’s like she was Dexter…Anyway, Sam was in the middle of his wall/visions, so his mental state was way off. Comparing Amy and Benny in this situation is Apples and Oranges. BUT, if we have Apples and Apples, yes, I would support Sam tricking Dean to save Amy, if Amy was really good, as Benny is. And never did I say Benny was the only criteria to consider–Dean was saving Sam from Benny too–Dean knew if there was a confrontation, there was an excellent chance the result would be a dead Sam. Dean getting Sam out of town took any confrontation between S and B away, both would be safe from each other.
Point 2, I think having a “conversation” with Benny&Dean and Sam would have been a ticking bomb about to go off. Martin had just knocked Dean out earlier so he and Sam could kill Benny. Sam was in no mind to “hear” anything Dean would say about Benny. Dean is correct in saying Benny needs to get out and hide very very low. “Making it clear to Sam” was not going to happen that night. Voilence was a much clearer outcome of any three-way talk.
Point 3: If Dean did have options that did not “crush Sam” (I don’t think he was crushed. Pissed yes, crushed no), hosting a three-way meeting with Benny and Sam was not one of them. I will say again, voilence would probably be the result of that meeting. And the ridiculous comment about Dean killing Sam or Sam allow Martin to kill Dean to get to Benny, I don’t know where that came from, and don’t understand it. It’s so ridiculous I don’t know how to answer it, other than to say if Dean has 1 bullet in a gun and has to kill Sam or Benny, Benny would be dead before Sam could blink. Dean would not even have to think about it.
[b]Nate[/b] Sam’s mental state wasnt off , his hallucinations were under control thanks to the hand rub and he was able to make decisions . I dont think Amy took pleasure in killing those people but to her her son’s life was more important .She clearly didnt want to kill and I didnt regard her as particularly bad or evil .
I know right now with Benny he is the sympathetic vampire but Sam’s statement to Dean ‘your too close’ was a fair one and Dean has told him the same .I didnt find Sam to be gung ho and illogical in his view and he certainly wasnt going to allow Martin to be either. The thing is if this had been another vampire would Sam of been seen has wrong , the killings were happening in and around Benny , the evidence didnt clear him and the suspicions were not out of place.
I understand Dean was determind to protect Benny and he came up with the text and used it when he needed to , and yes Sam was angry but seeing him at the end he had been hit in the face by a emotional wallop .
If Dean had not set out from the begining to keep Benny and Sam apart after all Sam is not unknown to accept good monsters and had told Sam this is the vampire that helped me and brought them together then relations prehaps would’nt of got this bad and now that seems impossible .
One thing that hasn’t been talked about is that Dean set the rules that if a monster kills EVEN TO PROTECT ITS FAMILY, it has to be put down. We got to see why Benny attacked, to save Liz, but Amy killed to save her son. In Metamorphosis the Rugaru killed to save his wife and unborn child. In all cases, except Benny, the default was once they start killing, they should die, no excuses, no exceptions.
I was one who thought Amy should have been given a chance to prove that she would not kill again, but the show didn’t go with that assumption, having Sam agree that Dean was right to kill her. The biggest argument was that she had killed recently and even though she had been abstinent for years, once she returned there were no second chances. Now we have a very similar situation with Benny and what we hear is “Martin deserved it”. Sorry, but if you say Amy killing to save her family wasn’t justification enough to let her live, then Benny killing to save his family isn’t justification enough to live. Benny is fast and strong and could have incapacitated Martin. Then Liz calls the sheriff and tells him that Martin attacked her claiming “Roy” was some sort of monster, a vampire. Since the world believes the fictions about vampires, all Benny has to do is stroll into the sunlight for the sheriff and he’s home clear. Once the sheriff discovers that Martin has been institutionalized for mental issues, Benny is home free. He didn’t have to kill Martin. The standards applied to Amy should be applied to Benny.
DEAN made the a monster gets cut a break until he kills someone, for any reason. He set them up, he gets to live by them. If Amy and the Rugaru and Kate are on permanent probation with the condition being “don’t kill humans” then Benny’s probation terms should be the same.
I don’t think Dean’s position is that a monster doesn’t get a break when s/he kills for any reason; it’s that a monster doesn’t get a break if s/he kills as an expression of her/his nature. In most cases, that’s killing to eat.
For example, if Amy had killed a man because she got jumped in a back alley by a murderous thug on the way home from work, Dean would not have thought that a reason to kill her. Amy killing humans for food, on the other hand, is an expression of her basic nature and Dean takes that as meaning she cannot control her need to hunt humans as prey.
Amy tried very hard to control her hunting, but eating carrion was not healthy for her or her son, which we saw as only recently hunted food would do to get him better. When push came to shove, she was a kitsune and humans were food. Dean’s call was that push would inevitably come to shove again, because carrion would never be enough to keep Amy and her son healthy. So she would kill again.
With Benny, killing Martin was something Dean or Sam would also have done if they had been the ones to try rescuing Elizabeth and Martin was off the deep end and willing to hurt or kill her. Benny didn’t kill Martin for food; it wasn’t an expression of his vampire nature.
However, if Benny, having tasted blood again, does start hunting again, then Dean will have to kill him if he is going to stay true to his past decisions. Dean has warned Benny of this many times now.
Gerry, my hats off to you. In the year+ since this argument started with the killing of Amy (and the grey area of the show in general), this is THE BEST explanation I’ve ever seen. Thank you.
Yes, but Amy didn’t kill in response to her nature, she killed to protect her son; she wasn’t killing for herself at all and as far as I am aware, did not eat any of the fresh kills herself, she only gave them to her son to cure him. This would seen to be in direct conflict with her monster nature IMO. As for Benny? We don’t know, the show was pretty short on details as to what actually played out between Liz, Benny and Martin. On the surface it looks like Benny killed to protect his family which would put his situation in line with Amy’s; a killing to protect family, and possibly excusable (although Dean killed Amy for it, so there you go..) But maybe Benny killed Martin in a fit of vamp craving for fresh blood, they never did show us the how’s and why’s of Martin’s death. Maybe Liz jumped up and cut martin with the knife and then Benny vamped out and fed off of him, in which case, Benny has succumbed to his vampire nature and must be killed. It’s possible that Benny is innocent altogether and is just ‘taking the heat’ as it were for what Liz did to save him. Dean may know what happened as well, but he’s not sharing that information with Sam nor with us, the viewers. Dean seems to be keeping a lot of secrets this season.
I think the difference is Amy wasn’t killing people who were a direct threat to her or her son. She was killing strangers, people who had never harmed her or her child. She judged them as less worthy of living than her son, and she killed them without remorse for their deaths or the pain she was causing their loved ones. Though the analogy has probably been beaten to death, a parent cannot kill an organ match in order to get their child a transplant. Saving your child is noble, but that doesn’t give you the right to deprive others of their lives. I doubt the families of her victims would be comforted to know that their deaths were for ‘a greater good.’
You’re correct that show has deliberately left the details of Martin’s death ambiguous, and that may play out later. That doesn’t change the fact that Martin orchestrated this situation–he was an active threat to Benny and Elizabeth. He held an innocent against her will, terrorized her, and used her as leverage in order to kill. Show has been pretty clear that this sort of behavior, using civilians without their knowledge and/or consent, is contemptible and has meted out death as punishment before.
I think you could almost draw parallels between Amy and Martin here. They both instigated the violence/death that lead to their own demise, they both thought nothing of using civilian strangers for their own means, and both were punished for their actions.
Then again, who’s to say devaluing human life and using it to rationalize killing her victims isn’t part of her nature? It certainly seems like a monster trait when you think about it.
[quote]Then again, who’s to say devaluing human life and using it to rationalize killing her victims isn’t part of her nature? It certainly seems like a monster trait when you think about it.[/quote]
Twenty YEARS of finding a way to live and have her child live without killing ANYONE. Yes, she made the HUGE mistake of saving Sam, because Sam’s judgements get NO credibility. If she had just known that saving Dean would buy her a lifetime pass on killing, she could have been home free. Although being a female instead of a hunky, emo male would have worked against her regardless.
Benny has AT THE MOST, and only if we take his word for it, lived without killing people for one year before he was killed and however months since Dean brought him back, but hey! Dean likes him so he MUST be okay and Sam MUST NEVER doubt Dean’s word.
It’s the double standard I hate. And I am going to continue to hate it even as I realize that Dean always being right is the mindset of the writers and much of fandom.
[quote]Yes, she made the HUGE mistake of saving Sam, because Sam’s judgements get NO credibility. If she had just known that saving Dean would buy her a lifetime pass on killing, she could have been home free. Although being a female instead of a hunky, emo male would have worked against her regardless.[/quote]LOL[quote]Benny has AT THE MOST, and only if we take his word for it, lived without killing people for one year before he was killed and however months since Dean brought him back, but hey! Dean likes him so he MUST be okay and Sam MUST NEVER doubt Dean’s word. It’s the double standard I hate. And I am going to continue to hate it even as I realize that Dean always being right is the mindset of the writers and much of fandom.[/quote]This!!!
No, Amy’s mistake wasn’t saving Sam. Her mistake was deciding that she had to right to decide that human life wasn’t as important as her son’s, so it was fine for her to murder with impunity (and not even try to cover it up, either). Since no one Dean has trusted has been given ‘a lifetime pass on killing’, that seems hyperbolic.
Again, if Dean’s crime was not trusting Sam’s judgment, I’d say Sam’s in the same boat now. Sam had caught Amy killing within hours of the act, so by that standard, yes, Benny’s months of abstaining should seem more trustworthy. And no, it’s not necessarily about Dean–it’s about the fact that Sam was willing to give his ‘friend’ a pass while being ready to condemn Benny without the redhanded proof he had with Amy. Sam and Dean are both employing double standards. If it’s wrong for Dean to do so, it’s also wrong for Sam. But Dean did apologize for the way the Amy issue went down, and it doesn’t seem to be acknowledged here. It was as much as an apology as Sam gave in 5.1, so I’m not sure why it’s not considered adequate.
But if Sam has to kill Benny because he’s killed and Sam had proof, I don’t think Dean would really consider that wrong, and I’m not sure the audience would. Then again, people still argue Amy’s right to live despite her being a murder, so maybe not. Judging stories, plots, characters, etc, based upon fandom’s (perceived) wrong reactions seems like odd criteria to me, though. YMMV.
But Dean had also covered up the murders commited by Sam, when he was possessed… BEFORE he knew, what was wrong.
Those two have done things for each other and in the name of family, that are beyond bad here and there….
But that´s ok?
And a mother killing murderers and drug dealers so safe her child´s life (within the supernatural universe of course) is not forgivable? Because she was born “other”?
But Sam is other too…
I don´t say, Amy was a harmless soccer mom.
But the whole thing is alot more morally ambigious, than you seem to think.
And Dean didn´t kill her, because she was bad. He didn´t even call her a monster.
He was talking about “people” when talking to her. Not monsters.
And Dean was in no way in any stable place mentally.
He didn´t kill her, because she was a monster, he killed her, because he didn´t trust her.
Because he had huge problems trusting anyone “since Cas”
That´s it.
Dean covered up Sam’s crimes, I’ll agree. But he was still searching for a reason that Sam had done these things, because the Sam he knew wouldn’t have. Sam had blacked out for a week, and that was when the crime spree happened. I don’t see it as unreasonable to search for a reason before condemnation. As it turned out, he was right to hesitate.
Dean and Sam both knew the reason why Amy did what she did. But did she have the right to decide who was worthy of living in human society and who wasn’t? We saw one drug dealer and one man stumbling to his car, and to me, the last one is very iffy on whether that’s justifiable. We didn’t see the others at all. So all we have is some begging for their life that they were all totally bad and she’d never do it again. That’s not the same as knowing Sam all his life, his personality, his history, etc. Amy was a threat, and as it turned out, Sam wasn’t.
I don’t think Dean gave Sam as pass because he was human and Amy wasn’t (Sam has always been the one more likely to view himself as other). I think it was because he knew Sam was not a killer and wouldn’t have done anything like this if he’d been in control. Amy was in control, and she knew what she was doing. There was nothing to find out with her.
I have to agree to disagree, because to me it isn’t that morally ambiguous. Amy was a monster, and just because Dean didn’t say monster doesn’t mean that wasn’t part of the reason. We didn’t see Dean become a viligante killer gunning down regular murderers and whatnot. He killed a monster who was killing and whom they had no reason to trust wouldn’t do so again.
Dean’s issues may have played a hand, but that doesn’t mean that Amy wasn’t an unrepentant killer who should have answered for her crimes.
Plus, we all know that narratively the heroes of a show are going to get more leeway than a one-time guest star, so it’s a bit of non sequitar in that sense.
[quote]We saw one drug dealer and one man stumbling to his car, and to me, the last one is very iffy on whether that’s justifiable.[/quote]Did you see Desmond killing the people in citizen fang?
I don’t think that’s the point I was making. A man who might stumble to his car to drive home drunk, or might be climbing in to sleep it off. He might have been a serial drinker, or he might have been a man who had just lost his wife who fell apart one time. There’s no indication either way, so I don’t know if there’s enough there to say for sure that he ‘deserved’ to die. That’s what I was saying.
[quote]Since no one Dean has trusted has been given ‘a lifetime pass on killing’, that seems hyperbolic. [/quote]Benny has been given that chance[quote]Sam and Dean are both employing double standards. If it’s wrong for Dean to do so, it’s also wrong for Sam. [/quote]But since Dean went behind Sam’s back it is okay for Sam to do the same.[quote]But if Sam has to kill Benny because he’s killed and Sam had proof, I don’t think Dean would really consider that wrong, and I’m not sure the audience would[/quote]I want Dean to consider it wrong and all others to not.[quote]Then again, people still argue Amy’s right to live despite her being a murder, so maybe not.[/quote]Benny has not killed right?
I’m pretty sure Benny has killed in the past and now been given a second chance by Dean, so why was Amy not afforded the same chance? Easy, she was trusted by Sam and not Dean. To me that says Dean doesnt trust Sam.
Amy was not in Purgatory for a year with Dean. Benny proved to be trustworthy in that year and once they are out. Apples and Oranges.
[quote]Amy was not in Purgatory for a year with Dean. Benny proved to be trustworthy in that year and once they are out. Apples and Oranges.[/quote]
Well no she wasn’t but that isnt exactly a fair comparison of course Benny had that opportunity. Amy saved Sam’s life but unfortunately has got labeled has a monster who killed .
In the end Dean did what he did , he decided that neither Sam’s judgement and the promise he made were applicable and killed Amy it cant be undone . Benny is in a different position and has had a far more sympathetic pov and storytelling it is naturally easy to look at him in that way.
[quote]Benny proved to be trustworthy in that year and once they are out.[/quote]Yes in purgatory but not on earth.He did not do anything to prove once they got out.
But Dean was a different man, back then.
And I would love to see that change acknowledged, by him acknowledging Amy and perhaps… yes.. it hadn´t been right
Or because Benny had already made the decision to stop killing independently, and Amy showed no remorse about her kills, which had occurred mere hours earlier.
For Sam, not everything is about Dean, and for Dean, not everything is about Sam. Sometimes they take actions because they think it’s the right thing to do. That’s why they’re heroes.
You’re right–Benny has been given a chance. It wasn’t a lifetime pass, particularly considering Dean approached him with weapon drawn to find out his story.
That’s my point–if it’s wrong for Dean to go behind Sam’s back, it’s equally wrong for Dean to do the same. You did it first is childish.
Again, if you’re in vindictive mode, I can’t join you. Sorry.
We know for a fact Amy killed innocent people the very day Sam caught her. We know no such thing about Benny. But my point stands–someone’s going to argue either way, so it’s not much worth worrying about.
[quote]You did it first is childish.[/quote]Or it can be a tool to show the first person what he did wrong .[quote]We know for a fact Amy killed innocent people the very day Sam caught her.[/quote]Not after she met Sam.She told Sam that she will stop that her son has gotten better.If Dean had killed her after she slipped up regarding her promise to Sam then it would have been okay .We don’t know that Benny has not killed or that he has killed so I am not trusting Dean’s judgement or Benny until further revelations.
Sam’s biggest mistake in the whole Amy saga was telling Dean that he let her live when he returned from her place, he should have lied and said he’s put her down without giving specifics about her so Dean could check up on her and Sam himself. Sam then could have kept an eye on her himself.
Then again whole problem would never have popped up in the first place if Amy had just killed Sam when they were kids, if she had killed him or let her mother kill him because they were trying to protect each other/their family from a hunter then they wouldnt have been doing anything wrong. It probably would have been better for Sam to have died then too but such was his luck he got to live.
Almost any human who kills another human has done the same thing, so not necessarily a monster’s only trait IMO.
I don’t recall there being clear rules about what monsters to kill or not kill. That is something the series has gone back and forth about since season 1, there has never been a default. In fact (which I hated), the Starks were let to live in “Shut Up, Dr. Phil.” The boys also had a great discussion about this grey area in “Bitten.” I don’t see how Benny is not 100% justified in killing Martin. Sure Benny is fast and strong, but to be fair, Hunters have killed many of vamps on this show, so we can’t paint Martin as totally helpless, no matter how crazy he is. Going by everything this show has shown us, Vamp vs. Hunter is a pretty fair fight. If Benny was a human in that situation, and a human Benny killed Martin in those circumstances, there is not a jury in the country that would convict human Benny.
Amy was not a character as drawn out as Benny. We know Benny is good, we didn’t get the full picture of Amy.
You can’t compare Amy killing and Benny killing: Amy was killing selfishly, she was taking the idea one above the many. She thought killing many was OK to save her (one) son. The needs of one do not outweigh the needs of many. If it was her son’s time, it was his time. There was no justification for her to kill, no matter how bad you feel for her. Benny was defending a crazy man from killing a human.
I saw a recent episode of Walking Dead where a human character said something like this. “In trying to survive and stay away from the awful zombies, I forgot how awful humans can be to each other.” Kind of makes sense in SPN world too, some of the humans are worse than any of the demons.
Well [b]Nate [/b] as I said I dont agree with your view of Amy.
I just hope Benny never disappoints any of you and that view you have of him .
This is Supernatural after all, I am sure there will come a time when Benny slips and Sam or Dean will have to do what they do. You can’t deny he is “good” (at least right now) with what we have seen from him? Are you not a Benny fan?
[quote]This is Supernatural after all, I am sure there will come a time when Benny slips and Sam or Dean will have to do what they do. You can’t deny he is “good” (at least right now) with what we have seen from him? Are you not a Benny fan?[/quote]
I am keeping my distance from Benny .I dont know if he is the good vampire everybody thinks he is but I cant view him has bad either . And he is being used towards Sam in the writing in away I don’t like so I just find it easier to not get too close to the character.
I don’t see that there is unshakable proof that Benny is a good guy. I see that everyone’s perception is that he is.
We don’t know that he didn’t kill those two people. We don’t know that the other vampire was setting him up. We just know that Benny said so.
Benny’s only actual deed that seems to be entirely selfless was when he was going to allow Martin to kill him… but it was Martin who ended up dead. So we (apparently) know that Benny will do anything for family (including killing creepy customers?) and apparently Benny is Elizabeth’s grandfather. Though I will say that that is the first thing that he has said that is verifiable…
It isn’t that I am convinced that Benny is a bad guy, I just don’t think we have convincing evidence that he is a good guy.
And we have no evidence at all that he doesn’t have ulterior motives for helping Dean, even if everything else he has said about himself is true.
I have to agree with eilf and percysowner on this one. There is no definitive evidence that Benny is good or bad. I love the character but the show is being cagey about too many things. We never got to see who killed the people in the last episode. If Desmond had been shown doing it I would lean more to “good”. I know that they were trying to cause doubt in our minds but it was not made crystal clear that Benny wasn’t involved. Also suspicious, the “they” that told him about the portal. The hints last year about alpha vamp returning make me wonder if he is connected to Benny somehow. I kinda want him to be a good guy but I am not buying it 100 percent.
[quote]You can’t deny he is “good”[/quote]
Sure I can. I can’t say that he is “bad”, but I’m not going out on the “good” limb either. In Purgatory, he met Dean and needed Dean to escape. He promised Dean to keep his nose clean, while watching an unexplained funeral. He went after his maker and his former girlfriend, now a vampire. He kills them his maker for revenge and his girlfriend because she has become a killer. However, he also kills the only people who can substantiate or refute his story of giving up killing and going on the straight and narrow for love.
We don’t see him kill in Citizen Fang, but we also don’t see Desmond kill. We are not even privy to exactly what happened with Martin. We do know when Sam asked if there were any casualties that Dean answered Martin was one and when Sam asked was it Benny, Dean said yes but Martin deserved it. That means that either it is true that Benny killed Martin and Liz told the truth or that Liz or someone else killed Martin and we do not have the whole story.
I was one who bought the Ruby is basically on the side of stopping the Apocalypse, and she was shown doing a lot more positive things for Sam and Dean than Benny has been. I’m holding off judging. I want Benny to be bad, but I am reluctantly admitting that yes, in fact, Benny is the best vampire ever to exist. He could have given lessons to Lenore and would have withstood Eve without breaking a sweat.
Amy killed a few ‘dirt bags’ in order to save her son, Benny killed Martin a crazy ‘dirt bag’ (presumably) to save his granddaughter. Its the same thing. Both Amy’s son and Benny’s granddaughter were innocent, both Amy and Benny killed ‘bad’ people to save their loved one. How is that not the same?
This has purposely been set up by the writers to be a similar situation as the Amy thing with a dash of the Ruby thing thrown in imo. The writers are trying to highlight how Dean has changed which means the situations have to be similar/the same.
Wow–these two situations aren’t even close to similiar. Amy killed humans she (SHE) deemed “bad” to save her sick son. Why is her son’s life more important than a drug dealer’s? It’s not–if she were arrested for killing a drug dealer, would she have been set free? Nope, doesn’t work that way, no human life is more important than another.
Benny was defending a human life. Martin being “bad” is as irrelevant as it is in Amy’s situation. Same point: Benny goes to court because he killed Martin. There isn’t a jury in the country that would convict him. Martin was going to kill a human, and/or Benny too, Benny acted in self defense. Actually he would not even have charges brought up against him.
[quote]Martin was going to kill a human, and/or Benny too, [/quote]I saw it as benny using that girl as leverage to kill Benny not him killing both of them.His only aim was to kill the vampire.[quote]Actually he would not even have charges brought up against him.[/quote]If he were human.
BUt Marin had already endangered her and possibly sentenced her to death, by cutting her and possibly driving Benny into a frenzy.
[quote]possibly sentenced her to death, by cutting her and possibly driving Benny into a frenzy.[/quote]I will wait for the reveal of what actually happened to comment on this
You may have seen it that way, anonymous, but it’s reasonable to expect the woman’s (she wasn’t a girl, I think… she ran her own restaurant) relative to see it that way. You tie a woman down and cut her throat with a knife, and her relative has every reason and responsibility to take you out. I would, if I were Liz’s sister. Martin was not covering himself with glory on this hunt.
[quote]You tie a woman down and cut her throat with a knife, and her relative has every reason and responsibility to take you out.[/quote]Yes, but then again I am not a vampire.If i am a vampire I know that the hunter is here to kill me and not liz.
But if said hunter had already endangered her, would you really have played with her life like that?
What would stop him, to kill her too, after you were dead?
If only to stop her to bring charges against you?
Could you have been sure enough of him not killing her, to take that risk?
Hi Sharon,
Sam’s mental state was off. I have watched that episode so many times, as it was so polarizing to the fans. In fact, his mental state was off most of last season. His visions were more or less everyday. Yes he could “control” what he knew was real and what was a vision, but his wall broke, and we know from Season 6 how bad the ramifications would be. Sam as we know ended up in the mental house before Cas removed the visions for good…We can’t make statements about Amy enjoying the killing or say she didnt want to, because we did not know enought about her, as we have a fairly full picture of Benny and how he IS good. I think Amy deserved to die and was fooling everyone with her “poor me” routine, so agree to disagree on her.
“You’re too close” is not the same with Amy and Benny. In fact these characters should not be compared. Benny is already been shown to be good. Sure Dean IS close, but we as viewers know Benny is good, Dean knows he is good, but Sam does not know enough about Benny to make an accurate call. So in this case, when saying “You’re too close,” Sam is actually wrong. Sam was right to think Benny was guilty, all signs pointed to that, but again the reality is Benny was not guilty. Sam had already made clear he was not going to be quick to accept Benny, so Dean was right to handle the situation the way he did. Having Sam and Benny together, with Dean there, to “talk things out” or something like that would not have been pretty.
[b]Nate[/b] I disagree again Sam was capable of making a decision and judgement call the hallucinations were not impairing him in this or in other episodes until his lack of sleep later on in the season . Nor can I agree with your view of Amy you see it differently and thats fair enough . Benny is easy right now to feel sympathy for as he has had multiple episodes Amy had one. I dont dismiss her as easily has you clearly do.
In this episode the meeting would of been pointless of course but my point was it wasnt at first when Dean lied and kept Benny hidden . Sam didnt create this situation if Dean went that path then he cant expect Sam to just accept his word . Sam saying ‘your too close’ was fair regardless of wether Sam knows Benny inside out the fact is Dean is close to Benny and when the evidence did implicate Benny then that comment was fair. But I am not naive as to where Sam’s pov stands in the show and where both Dean and Benny stand.
But clearly we are coming from different pov’s here so we will have to agree to disagree 🙂
Hi Sharon!
I like your comments, and do see where you are coming from, but:
You do remember Sam was institutionalized because of his visions? And Amy was killed shortly after Sam SHOT AT Dean because of the visions. Sam was not in the right frame of mind, and Dean REALLY did not think Sammy was all there at the time.
As far as Amy is concerned, I am 100% stealing this from GERRY above, who explains how I feel better than I can myself. I agree wtih the below….
“For example, if Amy had killed a man because she got jumped in a back alley by a murderous thug on the way home from work, Dean would not have thought that a reason to kill her. Amy killing humans for food, on the other hand, is an expression of her basic nature and Dean takes that as meaning she cannot control her need to hunt humans as prey.
Amy tried very hard to control her hunting, but eating carrion was not healthy for her or her son, which we saw as only recently hunted food would do to get him better. When push came to shove, she was a kitsune and humans were food. Dean’s call was that push would inevitably come to shove again, because carrion would never be enough to keep Amy and her son healthy. So she would kill again. “
“With Benny, killing Martin was something Dean or Sam would also have done if they had been the ones to try rescuing Elizabeth and Martin was off the deep end and willing to hurt or kill her. Benny didn’t kill Martin for food; it wasn’t an expression of his vampire nature. “
I agree to disagree 🙂
But you know if we are really going to get technical about this, what Amy did was monsterous but not monster behavior.
She didn’t kill because she couldn’t help it / it was in her nature. She killed to get something for her son. If she hadn’t a sick son she would not have killed people for herself.
What she did was the equivalent of holding up a pharmacy and killing the clerk because she couldn’t afford the drugs to make her son healthy. Since it is premeditated it is somewhat worse than simply following her nature.
She should have been handed over to human authorities, it wasn’t up to a hunter to kill her.
I see what you’re saying, because she didn’t give in because her condition compelled her. She didn’t snap because she couldn’t control her instincts any longer. But in a way, that’s worse, because she did it with malice and forethought. She knew ahead of time that she was depriving others of life and causing their loved ones pain, but only her son mattered. To use your example, killing a clerk is a monsterous thing to do, no matter if you need the medicine to save your child, because there is no way to justify killing an innocent stranger for your own ends.
However, because her son was eating brains, that is monster behavior. Skinwalkers torturing and killing people is a monsterous behavior, but stealing people’s appearance is monster behavior. You can’t separate one from the other, as it’s all fruit from the poisoned tree, so to speak. Like a skinwalker, the authorities are ill-equipped, to say the least, to deal with someone like Amy. Hunters like the Winchesters have been making decisions like this in order to save future victims and to bring justice to past victims for the whole of the series. Why should Amy be different?
Well I suppose my argument isn’t that Amy is different it is that the entirety of the world the hunters live in boils down to how they decide who is a monster.
(as an aside it seems that all shapeshifters are psycopathic or at least crazy as part of their nature so I would suggest that everything they do is monster behaviour)
I guess it is at the heart of the show. When is a monster a person and when is a person a monster? What is the difference? And who gets to decide?
The reason I mention Amy is that if, because she is a kitsune and for whatever reason she kills someone it is ok for a hunter to kill her, then if Benny killed Martin – even in self-defence – he is fundamentally a monster and therefore a hunter is not only entitled, but obliged, to kill him.
And I really don’t like that premise at all. It is too black and white (and scary).
So move back to ‘for whatever reason’ What’s a good reason, or a bad reason? What should the punishment be? And again who gets to decide?
Sometimes what the hunters do they have to do for the good of the whole community, but sometimes it’s ambiguous, as with Amy – not because she didn’t need to be stopped or punished, she did – but because it possibly wasn’t their decision to make.
And yes ‘the human authorities can’t control this creature’ definitely comes down on the side of when a hunter should act. But (for example) Amy didn’t seem to have much in the way of other powers?
This whole line of thought may be putting way too much weight on the shoulders of our little show – but they started it! 😀
The nature of monsters and their actions is definitely a theme in the show, and I think they’ve explored it many times. I enjoy that, frankly, because the answer isn’t the same every time. Show isn’t black and white about monsters, and hasn’t been for quite some time. For example, this year Dean and Sam had decide whether to pursue the werewolf from Bitten. They knew she had killed, but they listened to her reasons why and found them compelling enough to give her a chance. The reason they did that is because she killed a monster who killed her lover and deliberately infected her, and to their minds that was justice. So she was allowed to live. Same for Benny, since (as far as we know), he was innocent of the murders and was defending his granddaughter from a hunter so far over the edge that he was willing to terrorize and injure and innocent to reach his means. Show has been pretty consistent on their views of hunters who are willing to use humans without their knowlege and/or consent, so I don’t think Benny would be condemned for protecting family from an immediate threat.
Contrast that with Amy. She didn’t kill out of self-defense, defense of others from an active threat, or a sense of justice. She judged her son worth more than humans and acted. She showed no remorse for her victims or any sign that she wouldn’t murder again if she felt justified. So I don’t think it’s accurate to say she was judged guilty because she killed for “whatever reason”–she murdered at least 4 strangers without conscience. She proved that she posed a danger to others given the right circumstances. I never felt like there was any ambiguity there, so her death wasn’t an arbitrary decision based on ‘because she was a monster’ or ‘because we felt like it.’ She was a murderer who couldn’t be trusted due to the obvious ease she had in stalking and killing humans she deemed unworthy.
So to me, the reason for the deaths very much factors into the judgment over whether a monster should live or die.
As for judgment, hunters can and do have to make judgments all the time for the overall good, as does society as a whole. If it’s not a hunter’s job to judge a monster, then whose is it, in terms of the show’s universe? Since there is no monster jail, there aren’t many ways that hunter can choose to deal with dangerous and/or murderous monsters, which Amy was. Human prison wouldn’t have worked for her, because without access to cadavars Dean and Sam would have been condemning women prisoners to death or Amy to slow starvation. I can’t see how that would be preferable.
And you’re right we might be putting more thought into this than show did, given how the arc played out, but if we had to have the Amy plotline inflicted upon us I would have preferred that they had given it this much consideration.
[quote]which Amy was[/quote]This is where we disagree.You are following Dean judgement and me Sam’s.If Dean had given her a chance then if she had killed I would agree with you but since he did not I don’t.My sincere hope for future is Amy’s son kills Dean .I didn’t like that he killed her in front of her son…You simply don’t do that.
First, I expect that we will NEVER see Amy’s son again. Do we even know his name? It would be awkward to have him introduce himself as Amy’s son. That said, I don’t want him to kill Dean. Maybe to try to kill Sam so that Dean can feel the loss of a loved one and so he can tell Dean that until Dean killed his mother he never had to kill. Or even for Dean to find him dying of starvation, because Amy didn’t have the time to teach him how to hunt or how to work in a mortician’s office. I do think Dean needs to walk away with is I know better than everyone attitude being finally shown to have caused more devastation than leaving Amy alone would have caused. But that is me being petty and vindictive.
The Amy story was a flop and I can’t see it coming back. However, if it does I would want not being vindictive story. I hope Sam and Dean find her son, starving, alone and desperate. I hope Sam tells Dean that he is leaving with Amy’s child to find a way to help the boy survive without killing people and that Dean should stay the frell away from both of them, because Dean has done enough damage. The Sam finds a nice Kitsune family who are running a funeral parlor, or being coroners and they agree to integrate Amy’s child into a safe and non killing lifestyle. Then Sam tells Dean that he is not discussing it, that he will NEVER tell Dean where Amy’s son is and that Dean can go pound sand.
Then I want Dean to find out that Benny had already turned Liz before Martin came to town and that Benny’s instincts overtook his good intentions and led to 2 people and Martin being killed because Dean didn’t take any precautions. Because vindictive is coming back and also the huge need I have for Sam to be 100% right for once in his life.
And yes, I know it will never happen. Dean will remain perfect and always make the right choices, Sam will remain the scapegoat.
[quote]The Amy story was a flop and I can’t see it coming back. However, if it does I would want not being vindictive story. I hope Sam and Dean find her son, starving, alone and desperate. I hope Sam tells Dean that he is leaving with Amy’s child to find a way to help the boy survive without killing people and that Dean should stay the frell away from both of them, because Dean has done enough damage. The Sam finds a nice Kitsune family who are running a funeral parlor, or being coroners and they agree to integrate Amy’s child into a safe and non killing lifestyle. Then Sam tells Dean that he is not discussing it, that he will NEVER tell Dean where Amy’s son is and that Dean can go pound sand.[/quote]This scenario is better.[quote]Then I want Dean to find out that Benny had already turned Liz before Martin came to town and that Benny’s instincts overtook his good intentions and led to 2 people and Martin being killed because Dean didn’t take any precautions. Because vindictive is coming back and also the huge need I have for Sam to be 100% right for once in his life.[/quote]Yes[quote]And yes, I know it will never happen. Dean will remain perfect and always make the right choices, Sam will remain the scapegoat.[/quote]This is what I expect too.
Good lord, I hope we never see sign of the Amy plotline again. It was so poorly thought out and executed I think the PTB should run away from doing more than mentioning it again. But then, I think acting as if Dean just happened along innocent Amy and killed her for kicks isn’t fair. Amy was murdering people, and she had to face consequences for her actions. Of course her consequences were felt by others, particularly her son, but we don’t avoid punishing murderers in real life because they have children. I’m sure Amy’s son does blame Dean, but Dean didn’t cause his mother to become a killer. That was her choice.
Anyway, I can’t see any plotline with Sam trying to help Amy’s son, primarily because he never entered into the discussion. Sam was mad because Amy was his ‘friend’ and because dean went behind his back, but Amy’s son never rated a mention. There’s no sign that Sam gave or now gives him a thought. Anyway, if Amy’s son isn’t killing and has a reliable source of food, I don’t see why Dean would try to argue with Sam.
I can’t identify with your need to be vindictive, so I’ll leave you to it. Again, though, the Dean is always right and Sam is always wrong idea is hyperbolic, but if that’s what gets you through, enjoy.
[quote]Again, though, the Dean is always right and Sam is always wrong idea is hyperbolic, but if that’s what gets you through, enjoy.[/quote]The problem is it is not getting us through and for your kind information it is not hyperbolic.[quote]if Amy’s son isn’t killing and has a reliable source of food,[/quote]Because it was Amy’s son who got the taste of human parts and not Amy herself.[quote]I hope we never see sign of the Amy plotline again[/quote]I sincerely hope it does and spectacularly bite Dean in the ass
Amy’s son is collateral damage. Amy’s son is the reason Sam let her go, because she was only killing to save him and Sam had every reason to believe that once he was well Amy would go back to being that nice mortician who doesn’t steal your dead relatives jewelry, only takes their pituitary gland.
Amy’s son was eleven and left with no relatives. Yes Dean asked if he had somewhere to go, but on the off chance that Dean decided that if he didn’t Dean would take him out the way he did Amy, I’m not surprised the kid said yes. Dean also asked if he had killed anyone and I’m going with the idea that Amy’s son was smart enough to say no for survival’s sake
Amy’s son is young and alone and will get hungry. He can’t get a job in a mortuary. He will probably end up in children’s services and they have no idea how to feed a Kitsune. By killing Amy and not her son, Dean has left a child who has no other way to survive except killing. With Amy there was an extremely good chance she would impart her values of killing people isn’t necessary to her son, now he can only go by instinct. Dean left in place someone who has every reason to kill more people than Amy ever did.
The most important thing is that Dean is the YED to Amy’s son. He’s not Azazel, in as much as he has no plan to use Amy’s son in the future. Dean is the monster that came into the boy’s home, murdered his mother and left him with nothing.
And before you ask, did I want Dean to kill him? He couldn’t because doing so would have made his actions much harder if not impossible to defend. But as far as I know death by starvation is a really bad way to go, being abandoned with no support system is horrible for children. Dean set that situation up for Amy’s child because in the end, Dean considered him a monster and not worthy of a first thought, let alone a second one. What he did to Amy’s son was evil.
Just to clarify, my mother died (of a heart attack) when I was eleven on Christmas day while I watched. This time of year is NOT the time to get me into a discussion of how killing a mother in front of her child is a sparkly, wonderful thing that should just be brushed off or justified.
I agree, Emmau… Amy was killing, and she would’ve killed again (because really, are we to believe her son never would’ve gotten sick again? She never would’ve had another child? She would’ve easily gotten another mortician position and held it steadily for the rest of her life so they had a constant supply of food?). There wasn’t much choice but to put her down.
That’s always going to be the problem with monsters who are obligate human-o-vores. 😛 If they have to eat essential components of a human being to live, it’s likely that circumstances will force them to end a few people’s lives to continue their own. And that’s not OK.
It’s easier in the case of vamps, because donor blood is more easily accessible than dead brains, and if worse comes to worse, they can always drink animal blood.
[quote]I agree, Emmau… Amy was killing, and she would’ve killed again (because really, are we to believe her son never would’ve gotten sick again? She never would’ve had another child? She would’ve easily gotten another mortician position and held it steadily for the rest of her life so they had a constant supply of food?). There wasn’t much choice but to put her down.
That’s always going to be the problem with monsters who are obligate human-o-vores. 😛 If they have to eat essential components of a human being to live, it’s likely that circumstances will force them to end a few people’s lives to continue their own. And that’s not OK.
It’s easier in the case of vamps, because donor blood is more easily accessible than dead brains, and if worse comes to worse, they can always drink animal blood.[/quote]
We dont know wether her son would of got sick again at all there is no reason to believe he would, the other child comment again its all just conjecture . But anyway the issue in some respects wasnt the killing of Amy but how Dean acted.
Then one of the other things I mentioned probably would’ve happened. Amy and her son are obligate consumers of human flesh. They literally cannot live without it, and she’s proven that she doesn’t mind remorselessly killing random people if they start needing live flesh again.
That’s a big problem, when there are situations where they’ll need live flesh, situations where they may not have access to even dead flesh, etc. If they could supplement with animal tissue, maybe she could’ve lived. But they can’t. They’re not a monster that is well-suited to surviving among humans, in that way. And so in a world that is dominated by their sole prey source, the predator is probably going to die out, because the prey aren’t going to suffer themselves to be picked off whenever the predator has need. It’s just not in our nature.
[quote]They literally cannot live without it,[/quote]They can live by eating dead human parts.
But the Amy story sure has caused more comments than any other story I have ever seen. Alice needs to have an Amy thread.
Since I have just read it yesterday.
Amy wasn´t a case of right or wrong.
Or, as Dean stated:
“I went with my gut. I didn´t trust her. I have had trouble trusting anyone, since Cas.”
This wasn´t even really about Amy.
That was about an irrational need to remove a potential threat for a weakened Sam.
The conversation, Dean has with Amy is very telling. Something isn´t right with Dean here and it has alot to do with Cas.
Look, how he isn´t calling her a monster. He´s talking about people, humans.
[i]DEAN:
I know. I know. But people… They are who they are. No matter how hard you try, you are what you are. You will kill again.
AMY:
I won’t. I swear.
DEAN:
Trust me, I’m an expert. Maybe in a year, maybe ten. But eventually, the other shoe will drop. It always does.
[/i]
In a way it was just cold blooded murder. Amy had no way of defending herself. And it´s a mirror of the Benny storyline.
Benny is Amy coming back to bite Dean in the ass.
Complete, with the distrust from Deans brother and everything.
In The Mentalist, Sam said, Dean did the right thing. But Sam was weakened, distracted and battling hallucinations.
He hasn´t let that one go. Not by a long shot. And he´s right not to.
In Southern Comfort, Dean said, he never betrayed Sam, but that´s frankly not true… and I´m sure Dean knows it. Only the sepctre doesn´t care and Dean doesn´t remember anything he said.
Going behind Sam´s back, after telling him, he trusts him and his judgement and implies, he will let her live?
I really want to see Dean apologize for that one.
Maybe he was right, maybe she would have killed again, after all, Sam found her, when she was stalking her next victim, but he had no right to do that.
Not without seeing, if she would kill again. Oh wait, it wouldn´t have mattered. As he said, it didn´t matter, ten years, or 20… she would kill again. He was convinced of it, just because, he didn´t trust her.
And contrary to Benny, Amy was pretty much a civilian, she was so no match for Dean, it was painful.
But in SC Dean said, people could change. And call it wishful thinking, perhaps, looking back, he sees, what he has done and acknowledges it.
[quote]That was about an irrational need to remove a potential threat for a weakened Sam. [/quote]A potential threat maybe…but for Sam, no.
I’ll agree to disagree, because Amy was very much a case of right and wrong. She was a murderer, and it was wrong to let her go. Dean can attribute that to his instincts, but that doesn’t mean that to him it wasn’t a matter of right and wrong. It was wrong to let her kill strangers with impunity, so he stopped her. And Dean was right, because for Amy the other shoe did drop–her son got sick and 15+ years of abstinence went out the window with no regret.
We don’t tend to judge monsters as completely defenseless, and I doubt Amy’s victims would classify her as such. She was overmatched, but then we could say that about some of the other monsters Dean and Sam have killed. She wasn’t a civilian–she was a monster who murdered people. Being caught unaware doesn’t change that. Killing monsters that seem overmatched doesn’t make Sam and Dean murderers when they remove a threat that is killing humans.
Dean was wrong to go behind Sam’s back. But since I’ve been told re: S4 that specific apologies aren’t necessary for the boys’ actions, I don’t think Dean should be expected to give more of an apology/explanation than he already has. It seems that if he does change his mindset, some will just see Dean as a hypocrite, so there’s not really a way to win there, is there? Plus, if Benny turns bad it will just reinforce Dean’s mindset that all monsters eventually go bad and we’ll end up right back where we started. I can’t see a gain there storywise.
And where is the gain for Sam? as it stands at the moment Sam as little credibility either has a brother and it seems judgement wise as well right now .If it turns out that Benny is exactly what is written on the box that certainly wont harm Dean storywise and has a character .
I dont expect Benny to turn out wrong and havent from the begining I dont think the writers have gone out of their way to have this character look sympathetic to then pull the rug out from underneath him or the audience but having said that the fact is Sam is presented in a way where it isnt hard to conclude he is wrong and will be wrong.
The Benny factor for Dean can prove to be positive but it will not be for Sam .
Do I believe it’s hyperbolic that Dean is always right? not really because the show does come very close to that ideal.
I think if you’re wishing for one of the boys’ death, there’s not much further discussion can go. By that theory, all of the families of all of the hosts of demons as well as the families of all of the monsters Dean and Sam have killed would be perfectly justified in hunting them down and killing them.
[quote]I think if you’re wishing for one of the boys’ death,[/quote]I hope you know that nothing in the show has suggested that Dean is Immortal.Dean is going to die…It is just a matter of how he dies when he dies.[quote]By that theory, all of the families of all of the hosts of demons as well as the families of all of the monsters Dean and Sam have killed would be perfectly justified in hunting them down and killing them.[/quote]If they come to know that is…
Hi anonymousN, yes Dean will die so will Sam, probably together. I am sure your comment about wanting to see Amy’s son comes back and kill Dean was meant as poetic justice. It is hard as a fan who loves Dean to hear it put that way. What if one of the demon hosts that Sam killed had children. Try to imagine if I said that one of those children should come back and kill Sam because he didn’t consider the children of the hosts. I can’t imagine it would sit well. Now I realize that is probably a bad example, but it is all I could come up with on short notice. My point is that I would never say that about Sam because I love him also. They are going to die but we don’t have to wish ways in which that will occur.
I guess I should have will will die AGAIN but one day it will be final. 🙂
[quote]I am sure your comment about wanting to see Amy’s son comes back and kill Dean was meant as poetic justice.[/quote]Yes[quote]It is hard as a fan who loves Dean to hear it put that way.[/quote]I am sorry.I will not write about it again.[quote] Now I realize that is probably a bad example,[/quote]If Sam had done something like that and the kid in future killed Sam I would not blame the kid.
Well, since Dean is a fictional character that has already died and come back to life many times, I wasn’t really debating the mortality issue per say. Of course, if this were real life Sam would die and so would Dean and neither one would come back to life. That wasn’t my point, and furthermore, your post didn’t read as if that was your meaning either. Knowing someone will die and actively cheerleading for that death are not the same things.
I have to agree with Leah here. I don’t wish for Sam’s death any more than I wish for Dean’s, so I’m afraid I don’t understand where you’re coming from. I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree on this front.
[quote]Knowing someone will die and actively cheerleading for that death are not the same things. [/quote]I do not have pom pom in my hands. I just think it will be poetic justice.This hardly qualifies as cheerleading but then again YMMV.
I don’t understand by what criteria Amy is not a murderous monster, I’m afraid. How many chances does she deserve? She had one, and killed four people with it. Why is she being held to different standards than any human would be? If you kill four strangers who have done nothing to you, you’re a murderer. I don’t like that he killed her in front of her son necessarily, but doesn’t mean she didn’t deserve to face the consequences for her murders.
[quote]I don’t understand by what criteria Amy is not a murderous monster, I’m afraid.[/quote]Good.[quote]How many chances does she deserve?[/quote]one.[quote]Why is she being held to different standards than any human would be?[/quote]Because she is not a human.[quote]If you kill four strangers who have done nothing to you, you’re a murderer.[/quote]Yes.[quote]I don’t like that he killed her in front of her son necessarily, but doesn’t mean she didn’t deserve to face the consequences for her murders.[/quote]If she deserves then Benny does too and her son definitely does not deserve to see his mother killed.
It’s good that I don’t understand? I’m not sure I follow.
She had one chance. Sam knew she was a monster the fateful afternoon he spent with her as a teenager. He behaved aggressively in face of that, but decided to spare her because of her actions against her mother. So she did have a chance, and she did kill using it.
I think that people are holding Amy up as a person with rights and whatnot, so that means she has to face the responsibility for her actions likea person. But if she’s not human and has a feeding pattern that is inherently deadly to humans, like vampires, she has to be held to a higher standard.
I don’t think anyone could argue that Amy’s son deserved to see her die. I don’t understand why Benny has to be tied to Amy so tightly, honestly. Just because Sam sees them as equivalent doesn’t necessarily make them so, especially in terms of their views of human life. Benny chose to reject taking human lives, and Amy rationalized her killings and feels no remorse for them. I don’t think I’ll see them as similar until show has Benny murder humans in the present time, just as Amy did. Obviously, mileage varies.
[quote]She had one chance.[/quote]Which Dean took away before she could kill using it.[quote]I think that people are holding Amy up as a person with rights and whatnot, so that means she has to face the responsibility for her actions likea person. [/quote]It is simply about giving her a chance.Which Sam gave.Dean killed her because she might kill again not because she had killed again.
Benny has murdered in past that is enough for him to be killed.Just because someone killed when they were 29 does not mean they will not face justice when they are 60.If Amy was not given a chance to proove her statement why should Benny be? Because Dean trusts him? Sam’s trust was not enough then and Dean’s is not enough now.If Sam was suffering from hellucinations Dean has PTSD however unconvincingly they have shown it in both the cases.
I will tell you my thoughts exactly.I don’t want Benny to be good.If the one time Sam is distrustful of a monster and it turns out to be good and [u]is allowed to live[/u], I am going to be livid.And if Sam’s character is sacrificed for that then well livid to the power of infinity.
The chance I was referring to, and the chance Amy did have, was given long ago when they were children. Sam could have tried to kill Amy when he found out she was a monster who would have to find a way to get pituitary glands once her mother was dead, certainly leading to the possibility that she would become a killer. He could have also set his father on her trail out of concern for her possible victims. He did not, because she hadn’t killed a human and had saved his life. Much like Dean with her son, Sam chose to give her a chance to live. So it seems Sam and Dean are very similar in their thinking there, and I think they both made the right choice.
Amy murderered without remorse with her chance (even if it took time for that to occur) and that is why she had to die. Benny has murdered in the past, but chose to stop out of respect for the girl he loved and because she helped him start viewing humanity as valuable again (by what we know now). Lenore also took this path, and Sam fervently believed she shouldn’t die and helped convinced Dean of that. That’s the difference between Amy and Benny. Sam’s view really doesn’t enter into it for Dean, as I’m sure for Sam Dean doesn’t enter into his decision making about Benny, of course, as they both termed that the other was too close to make the right call. That’s not even subtext in canon–it’s outright text.
If you don’t want Benny to be good, that’s fine. Everybody’s got a right for the story to go the way they’d prefer. I don’t see it as really being related to Sam or Dean being right or wrong, as it’s Benny’s choice what he does. Show has taken the time to establish him as an independent character, so to me, his actions will reflect his right- or wrongness, not the Winchesters. Mileage varies, naturally.
[quote]his actions will reflect his right- or wrongness, not the Winchesters[/quote]It would be ok if the characters were insulated from one another.but they are not.[quote]the other was too close to make the right call.[/quote]The way the “right call” was arrived at also matters.
AMEN emmau!!!!
But she would have killed her way out of jail to be with her son–more innocent lives lost. If she killed to save her son once, she would have done it again.
[quote]But she would have killed her way out of jail to be with her son–more innocent lives lost. If she killed to save her son once, she would have done it again.[/quote]Put her son in Jail too. simple.
Wait… put an innocent, young boy in jail because he MIGHT do something? Because he carries the potential of doing something, but hasn’t yet done so? That’s what you are saying? Why? Just because he’s a monster and has the potential and as such doesn’t even deserve the chance at a life because of what is inside him? This seems unfair, and unjust to me. Would you condone a similar view in the real world for say, people diagnosed with a mental illness?
Okay.I advice you to see the episode again.It was Amy’s son and not Amy who ate the human parts .So if anyone was in the risk of going going crazy it was her son.In any case there is juvie right.
Juvie Hall = Buffet for Amy’s son. If you would suggest this “jail” or “juvie hall” to Sam or Dean, or any sane person, you would hear their laughter as they turned and walked away from you.
Jail for monsters and juvie for monsters.Why would anyone put monsters and humans in the same jail?
[quote]Sam or Dean, or any sane person, you would hear their laughter as they turned and walked away from you.[/quote]good insult.I hope it made you feel good. 🙂
Hi anonymousN,
I never meant to insult you. If you took my comments that way, I apologize. I do respect your comments and passion for SPN. Insult is a word I never want to be associated with. Going forward I will check myslef before I wreck myself. 🙂
Hey no problem.Wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year.
You know Nate, I’m glad that anonymousN has a good sense of humor, but we do have rules about showing respect. Being cute is okay, being insulting while being cute, um, not so much. Just watch the comments like this for the future. They will be edited next time.
You know Alice, an insult is to say or treat someone disrespectful. I’d argue anonymousN may be lacking a sense of humor. Any comment that is not the same view as him/her are mostly responded to with “cute” comments, as you can see here on your “Bitterness” thread. AnonymousN was the one that used the word insult. If he/she took it that way, I can’t control the reaction. I respect, thought don’t agree, with every comment. Same as you. The same way you interpreted my comments were “cute.” I type as I speak and make examples that make sense to me. I honestly think Sam and Dean would laugh at the idea of a monster jail. There was no insult in that comment, no cuteness. I want to be clear on that. You’re the boss, so censor anything you want.
Nate, If in your earlier comment you had just said only Sam and Dean then i would have not thought of it as an insult but as an opinion but you didn’t.If you think indirectly calling me insane is Okay then I have nothing more to speak to you.
Nate, 90% of the comments I edit or issue warnings to are because someone has reported the comment to me. Your comment was reported to me, and not by AnonymousN. So, I’m telling you, your intent was misconstrued as disrespectful by more than one person. It’s a free form thread for sure, but we have a base set of rules and “show respect” is one of them. The bitterness is for Supernatural, not other posters.
I didn’t censor your comment as you noticed. All I did was remind you to be respectful. Your opinion is valid. Just try to approach disagreement with a more constructive tone. Thank you.
Hi Alice,
I never want to be associated with the word insult, so going forward I will be very aware of my tone before I click SEND on a response. I apologized to anonymousN, and also anyone else here in the very BEST Supernatural website, that took my comments as mean or any other negative way.
[quote]But if said hunter had already endangered her, would you really have played with her life like that?[/quote]Because of my presence.[quote]What would stop him, to kill her too, after you were dead?[/quote]She being a human.[quote]Could you have been sure enough of him not killing her, to take that risk?[/quote]The only risk for her is me being there.
Alright, that is you.
Granted, i don´t have a great-granddaughter.
Only a little brother.
But I would never risk his life on the assumption, some crazy guy, who threatened and injured him, would just let him go, because all he wanted, was my death, because of what I am.
I wouldn´t risk his life at all. Period.
Someone threatens him like that, I would just nuke them.
All we need to do now, is decide, is Benny more like you, or more like me 😆
[quote]Granted, i don´t have a great-granddaughter. Only a little brother. But I would never risk his life on the assumption, some crazy guy, who threatened and injured him, would just let him go, because all he wanted, was my death, because of what I am. I wouldn´t risk his life at all. Period. Someone threatens him like that, I would just nuke them.[/quote]I have a little brother too and am not going to be a grandfather for another 25 years atleast.Some crazy guy was a hunter and Benny knew how hunters work, me too for that matter.
Even Dean wasn’t cruel enough to preemptively deprive an innocent boy of life and freedom based upon what he might do later. Since Amy was the murderer and not the child, he gave him a chance. What he does with that chance is his choice, of course, just like what Amy did with the chance Sam gave her all those years before when he didn’t kill her or get his family to hunt her down. I doubt we’ll ever know what he does with that chance, but I have to agree with E here. The boy doesn’t deserve to be locked up. By doing it’s guaranteed that he’d have to become a murderer, actually, as there would be no choice but to kill other children since there wouldn’t be pituitary glands on the menu at juvie. So I don’t think that would be the best course of action.
[quote]Even Dean wasn’t cruel enough to preemptively deprive an innocent boy of life and freedom based upon what he might do later.[/quote]So nice of Dean to deprive him of his mother and the icing on the cake being the kid got a live show.[quote]Since Amy was the murderer and not the child, he gave him a chance.[/quote]Who was eating the human parts ? The kid or Amy?I know it was the kid.How does Dean know the kid is on the “straight and narrow”?Sam was the one who got a chance because of Amy not the other way around.Sam gave her a chance now in the present.If Dean can’t respect Sam’s choices because she might kill again then why should Sam?[quote]menu at juvie.[/quote]What is the menu at the jail where Amy is held? I am curious.
The Winchesters have never been ones to pause and ask if they have monsters have families before they stop the murderous ones,. Amy’s victims’ families probably wouldn’t be satisfied with, “Well, we were going to bring you justice, but it turns out she’s a mother so we just let her skip away after killing your loved one. You don’t mind, right?”
Who was eating the human parts is immaterial–Amy was the murderer, not the child. Sam made the same judgment when Amy and he were children–he chose to let Amy go after she killed her mother, the actual murderer. He chose to give a child a chance, just as Dean did. What the child does with that choice is up to him, just as it was up to Amy. If the Winchesters or some other hunter catches him killing, I’m sure he will be killed the same as Amy was when it was discovered he used his chance to kill people.
I really don’t know what they serve at juvie, but I think it’s fairly certain that pituitary glands are not part of their daily offerings.
[quote]Amy’s victims’ families probably wouldn’t be satisfied with, “Well, we were going to bring you justice, but it turns out she’s a mother so we just let her skip away after killing your loved one. You don’t mind, right?”[/quote]So Winchesters after killing the monsters go to their victims home and give them detailed report about the monster.[quote]Who was eating the human parts is immaterial[/quote]It is .That is why what you and I think are different.The child got the taste of a fresh human pituitary gland and did not have someone who would ease back him into his earlier eating habits.So it does matter.[quote]’m sure he will be killed the same as Amy was when it was discovered he used his chance to kill people. [/quote]Well,you see it as a chance and me as cruelty.[quote]I really don’t know what they serve at juvie, [/quote]Amy will be in Juvie? Why?[quote]but I think it’s fairly certain that pituitary glands are not part of their daily offerings.[/quote]So they are going to put monsters in jail and starve them to death…isn’t it simple just to kill them
Of course the Winchesters aren’t going to each victim to explain how justice has been served for their loved ones–they’d get locked up in an asylum. But to me, an inherent part of their job is to stop the suffering of families by stopping the monsters killing them, which also dispenses justice for their victims already taken. That may not be your view, but that’s fine.
Yes, Amy’s child has a hard road ahead–just as Amy did after she killed her primary food source in her mother and ended up on her own. We are to believe that she managed without killing anyone until her son took ill. Amy had a chance and apparently was able to live clean until that point, so why is it unfair to assume that her son could do the same?
As for jail and juvie–you don’t have to convince me. i never advocated for the jailing of either Amy or her child. I didn’t think turning Amy over to the human authorities was a viable option as an adult, nor did I think it when Amy was a child. Therefore, it isn’t a viable option for her child either. So in that, we agree, it seems.
[quote]assume[/quote]My problem is it an assumption (and that too one which puts Dean’s decision conveniently in a favorable light).
anonymousN, that is such a ridiculous comment, I’m not sure if you are serious or being facetious.
[quote]that is such a ridiculous comment,[/quote]Why?[quote]are serious or being facetious.[/quote]Ask this to whoever started with the jail business
But you suggested the juvie comment. I’m on to you anonymousN, you are making comments so head-scratching, the only reason you’re doing this is to rile up the rest of these fans.
[quote]I’m on to you anonymousN, you are making comments so head-scratching, the only reason you’re doing this is to rile up the rest of these fans.[/quote]Let me tell you one thing.You don’t know me .[quote]But you suggested the juvie comment.[/quote]I took the jail comment seriously,If jails can exist why can’t juvies?
I am sorry anonymousN, I usually find that, as a fan in Sam’s corner in general, I tend to agree with you and your POV, but not in this case I am afraid. I find some of your arguments on the Amy issue non-sensical, and defensive. This seems less like an acutal argument about events in canon and more like Dean bashing. I am not thrilled with Dean at the moment, I am finding his black and white thinking as rigid as ever (despite his turnaround in regards to Benny), but some of the things you are accusing him of? I don’t agree; particularly with the comment that Sam is being open minded by looking at each monster case individually and Dean is being “selective” while doing essentially the exact same thing. To allow this latitude for Sam and not for Dean is one sided. I think both sides of the brother’s argument have elements of right and wrong in them, which is why there is so much good debate out there; but to try and lable one ‘wrong’ and the other ‘right’ does a disservice to both characters. Perhaps in the history of the show Dean HAS been shown to be more right than Sam, but that is not what is happening in the show right now IMO. And I REALLY disagree with the sentiment that you could actually even consider locking up an innocent young child simply because the potential for problems exists. This makes me very uncomfortable indeed, and I shudder to think what views like this could lead to in the real world. Perhaps the show will offer some clarity on some of these subjects in the future, but I doubt it. I think maybe the Benny storyline will gain some clarity, but I higly doubt we will hear much more about Amy; Percy was right; the writers made a huge mistake with the Amy storyline; introducing something so volitile with NO plans to have either brother learn anything from it, or to even resolve it properly. To me, the Amy storyline was a huge part of what was wrong with season 7 as a whole; poor planning and followthrough with no clear idea as to what the motivating force behind either Sam or Dean was supposed to be.
I will tell you why Dean’s decision did not make any sense to me.He killed Amy because she might kill again, but at the same time he let the boy go away.I know that Amy had killed the people but the person who consumed those pituitary gland was her son.My mom once said a Tiger which tastes human blood always prefers human meat …now I don’t know whether this is true …but in this show it is a norm that once a monster goes on humans as a diet it is very tough to revert back.He killed Amy and left her son. Now this itself might have been okay but the son saw his mother getting killed.Am I supposed to think the child is going to be okay.The episode for me was brilliant but the followup sucked.
I would not be “one sided ” If Dean sees all the cases individually.but he does not IMO.I don’t know about open minded but it is simply not fair.He does not respect Sam’s decisions but expects the same from Sam.If Sam does not he is wrong.This is where I go “no, just no”.
He wants Sam to trust him but is reluctant to trust Sam enough to meet Benny.The more Dean blames Sam the more I don’t feel for Dean.
It really made no sense for Dean to NOT kill Amy’s son. Dean killed Amy b/c she was a monster, so why leave her son alive? He should have killed them both. That would have been consistent.
For the record – I had no issues w/Dean killing Amy and thought he should have killed the kid too. I di think it was wrong of Dean to lie to Sam and deceive him, but that’s another story.
So I was the one who brought up the idea of when someone should be dealt with by human laws and when by hunter ‘laws’ which are flexible at best.
I wanted to make a (n amateurish) comment about the philosophy of killing monsters. I realised very quickly that Law and Order: Monsters wasn’t really what I was going for.
But your discussion is interesting 😀
🙂
Just a general comment that I’ve brought to the bitterness thread so I could vent a little.
To those folks who are saying that Jared should be killed off or quit so that he could go to another show where he will “happy or “appreciated”- what?? By all accounts Jared loves making this show. Loves his co-stars. Loves his crew. I have never even heard a whisper about any unhappiness on his part. Why, if you love Jared, would you want him to leave all that just because YOU are unhappy with the show? These are your issues, not Jared’s. How could anyone presume to know what is best for his career? This show is one of the best EVER, I am sure he appreciates that and is proud to be a part of it.
Hear, hear.
I totally agree. I don’t want Sam written off. My position is that unless the relationship becomes more balanced, Sam either has to give into Dean’s judgements without question, which devalues Sam or he has to work separately from Dean. Realistically, the set up for this year is 1) Sam doesn’t want to hunt, which means having Sam hunt on his own unlikely 2) Garth has taken Bobby’s place, which means Sam is unlikely to move into that role. So Sam is either stuck riding with Dean and never being forgiven for his failures or moving onto a normal life, which takes him out of the main premise of Supernatural.
There is also the reality that BOTH Jensen and Jared want more down time. That means shooting them in separate parts of the episodes more than in the past. With Carver having Dean’s betrayal issues resurface and Sam’s need for normalcy resurface, we can’t even have an equal partnership dividing the duties of a hunt and coming together to decide on a course of action. This conflict has torn at the basic belief that the brothers have had for each other in the past IMHO. So at some point the show has to “pick a story” to get the focus and frankly, Dean is more popular than Sam and Jensen is more popular than Jared. So, although I do not want Sam written out, Sam is the one more likely to have a diminished role in the mythology and more importantly in the POV. I REALLY don’t want to see Sam having to be wrong, wrong, wrong yet again. I simply thing that at this time Sam is being written as disposable especially as Dean gathers “better” brothers and allies.
I know Sam will not be written out. Jared seems to be happy and he has a family to support and a steady job in a field that has a 95% unemployment rate. I want him to stay on as long as he feels it is in his best interest. I’m simply expressing the fact that as it stands at the end of episode 9, I don’t see a way to reunite the brothers that I can believe in. So FOR ME, all I see is a resolution that accentuates the fact that Sam is wrong and not truly needed.
I think Jared is genuinly enjoying his part in SPN, he is a [b]very [/b] loyal person, he met his love in this show, how can he be unsatisfied? He supports SPN and his friendship with the others, especially his friendship with his co star, he has a regular salary and he got the time he wanted…for his family…his lovely and adorable son. I see Jared indeed in a good place! But I have similar thoughts…like others …that I would like to see him in something different now. Very disappointed in how his character is written…or is not written!
My feelings are that Robert Singer had a huge say in how S8 should pan out, and Sam is put on the back burner, while Dean is front and center, even his flashbacks are more gripping and palpable from a neutral POV!
The way Sam’s story is written and directed is just not convincing to me. I don’t know what it should do with my feelings, should I trust what I see, is there more than meet the eye? Is Sam happy or not? How can Sam even be happy again after all? Is he faking normal? Does he really want out? Why does he want out? What reason gave Sam why he didn’t look for Dean? I missed it or it was hinted, I have no idea, but Sam said to Dean “I said why I didn’t look for you” in 1 of the episodes (don’t know which one)!
I don’t see Sam in a good place in the show. From the moment I heard JC takes over SPN I was[b] very [/b] happy (of course remembering his strong episodes), and hoped for equality regarding the brothers. I even watched his version of “Being Human” (a few episodes) and found equal POV first and was happy, I thought this seems like a good foreshadowing! But later I found that I missed something and it was when the werewolf was brought to the fight scene by his friend he lived together (the vampire risked the life of his room mate, I thought wow, their relationship is actually good, but they risk the other without personal fallout, its like I shouldn’t feel sorry for the werewolf [like I shouldn’t feel sorry for Sam in SPN] I missed that there was no backlash at the vampire for risking the werewolfs life…and this is practically what is important to me when I watch SPN with the brothers “[b]once” [/b] so unique bond)
I even wrote letters to all of the responsible of the show that for me the relationship/dynamÃc between Sam and Dean [b]is[/b] the core/heart of show. I wanted for tptb to bring that back. I asked if Dean does regret to ever have thrown the amulet away, I asked for the rock music and the impala, the 2 brothers on the road. What I got is indeed the relationship in the center but they are drifting away from each other, Dean has almost countless better brothers/buddies and they behave like little children, not adult men! Both of them. I can’t feel their bond anymore, to much anger, hurt, disappointment, resentment, betrayals in the open! From the past I should know how Sam would react and now I don’t…giving me the details of Sam’s year like this is unsatisfying and puts Sam in a bad light..not Dean although I think Dean is acting like a (includ a word of your own). And now I hear about a love triangle in SPN, and it is about Sam, Amelia and Don I only can think WTF is this? If someone here is in a love triangle it is certainly Dean with his two BFF! They can’t do that to Sam Winchester. A love triangle? Hell NO!
Now I think that Eric Kripke did indeed know his protagonist Sam the best, and even in the darkest hours of Sam Winchester I could feel him, know him and escort him on his way in the darkness and out of the darkness…In retrospective I give Sera Gamble a positive shoutout about S6 and PARTS of S7. She still managed to give me something about the brothers where I saw them…caring. Dean more out of responsibility (his place in the family) and Sam because of his love for his brother (6.22.. this was the last tribute to Sam Winchester from EK himself). Since JC took over I am not sure what he is up to, I have no trust right now only a little hope is left that it will be all explained in a way that I am able to go with!
[b]And what I miss the most is a[/b] solid Sam POV! I don’t know how I can relate to him, I don’t know if his FB’s are what they showed us, I didn’t know if they were even real (Amelia) till [b]episode 9[/b] I really don’t know what to make of Sam’s story. I think all of the issues around Sam are culminating in the lack of Sam’s POV, in the lack of a sympathetic approach of Sam’s time in this past year. I don’t know if I should really root for Sam and Amelia or if I should say what’s that? Is this a story about Amelia Richardson meeting a weird man, who doesn’t fit in normal but wants it desperately…
I find it universe-like OOC for Sam to leave Martin alone in the middle of a hunt. I find it OOC for Sam to hunt Benny down out of need to proof that Dean is wrong! And JC plays with our perception I don’t like. He shows us viewers Bennys story, heartbreaking, and we would cheer to let him live. Then comes Sam and tracks him down behind Dean’s back. He orders Martin who is just out of the asylum to do this. This is really horrible for me as a viewer, it is a set up for me to see Sam fail ….again After all his atonment for him trusting Ruby. The stone is rolling, the train left the station, Benny might end up killing people and how would we as (normal) viewers see it? Sam’s fault! Benny is extraordinary different to Ruby, we see his history, we see how he feels, how he cares, for his family, for Dean, there is nothing I can say speaks against him. Only Sam might think, Benny is bad news!
I don’t think we get a repeat of Ruby regarding Benny. Even if it would turn out that he has a hidden agenda, (I don’t believe it), this time it would be Dean with the trusting a monster not Sam. He would finally understand Sam better when he trusted Ruby! But we already saw that Ruby and Benny are different plots!
Why are people bitter and nonetheless still watch the show? Because they love (d) the relationship of the brothers, acted by Jared and Jensen, and they are caring for the brothers! But I am hugely disappointed especially with the kind of Sam’s story is told…or is NOT told.
I am SO fed up with mystery Sam and mainPOV Dean. I hoped for a difference in story telling regarding the brothers. And sadly I know people who love the show, stopped already watching. One friend of mine (via internet) said after the last episode aired “I am done”. She loves the brothers but leans towards Sam!
Things like Sam said for example “You had Benny” sounds really weird and immature to me. And I also don’t get why Dean has not forgiven Sam since I thought that this was the case in the episode at Rufus grave! And Dean repeating the “better brother” thing does hurt a lot, from the mainPOV character it is automatically a death blow to the character of Sam. That’s it! If Sam’s POV would have been in the open from the start and he did look for Dean and found out he is dead, then…then it would be okay if he thought “Dean is in heaven and I try to move on”. Laying out a solid story for Sam and then letting Dean be the mysterious one, we wouldn’t know where he stands now..and Sam trying to bring him back from the brink!
Now it seems that Dean is tired of Sam, although he said he would like to drive with him and hunting, but the rest of all this episodes is weariness and lashing out…at Sam… and Sam didn’t look for Dean and we don’t know why..or…I don’t know why. Maybe you all know why… I am not! They give us only some sentences of Sam like “I lost my brother..Dean” or “You saved me” or “My world imploded and I ran” or his sad looks! GREAT! No not great …to little explained, I would like to see it with my eyes, showing me Sam’s story and getting more than just a few sentences. Then I have to make it up by my own, because RS said “Sam is the more sensitive!” or JC says “It’s about perception” or “Sam’s story is a human story”
I think Sam’s story is lacking something huge and important, especially that Sam the human, the person gets interaction with people who appreciate him and if this girlfriend storyline is all of Sam’s story I want it actually that it feels real and I can count on it and I understand why Sam is at this point and how Sam came from point A in S7E23 in the lab to point C in S8E1 hitting the dog! I want to know what he thought what happened with his brother and why he didn’t look for Dean. It’s the same lack of acknowedging Sam’s part of the story as in S4. But in S4 I could feel the brothers caring and connection, I could feel Sam!
Sorry, this is long and maybe not easy to read because of my reasons and because of my english! I hope my points came across and nobody feels offended! I wanted to explain, why I still post although I am so disappointed, its that a little hope is left, and that I am to much attached and my connection into the brothers relationship IS Sam (although the riddle wrapped inside an enigma wrapped around a taco), I am so much attached that I retired already a lot from twitter, I can’t say much positive things right now and it is what it is! This is not like any other show I just stop watching because I am bored, I am attached because of their history….the brothers history! Sometimes I would like to rip it out of my heart but I still can’t….
I have 2 problems with Carver’s direction this season. Like most everyone else, I’m not liking what he’s done with Sam’s (lack of) storyline and POV. IMO this is the worst thing he could have done as it sets Sam outside the SPN world.
My second problem is that he’s bringing back the angel / demon crap. I’ve hated the angels since they came on in season 4 because to me they’ve changed the show from being about the brothers and the famil business to being about the angels and demons. This has made the Winchester brothers support characters in their own show. Additionally, how can humans even fight against these supernatural beings who are so powerful? I would much rather he returned the show to what it was before. I’ve pretty much lost interest in SPN due to this.
[quote]I have 2 problems with Carver’s direction this season. Like most everyone else, I’m not liking what he’s done with Sam’s (lack of) storyline and POV. IMO this is the worst thing he could have done as it sets Sam outside the SPN world.
My second problem is that he’s bringing back the angel / demon crap. I’ve hated the angels since they came on in season 4 because to me they’ve changed the show from being about the brothers and the famil business to being about the angels and demons. This has made the Winchester brothers support characters in their own show. Additionally, how can humans even fight against these supernatural beings who are so powerful? I would much rather he returned the show to what it was before. I’ve pretty much lost interest in SPN due to this.[/quote]
Should be family. Jeesh
Jo
I agree to the angels, they killed the real family story…and now theangels are brought back. To much powers, I don’t know what to believe or not, its not that I can be sure about anybody, not even Sam and Dean. The angels brought a difference to SPN, it took to much focus from the brothers and wonder oh wonder, people COMPLAINED about Sam’s powers but are impressed with the angel powers. Why is this? The relationship is indeed more in the backseat alone because of the angels in SPN! The demons were more personal for me and the core of the show was still palpable! IMO!
My 2 cents on the Amy situation. I wasn’t upset Dean killed her. I was upset that Dean looked Sam in the eye and told him he trusted Sam’s judgement. This after telling Sam to make him his stone #1. IMO this made Dean a giant douchebag.
[quote]My 2 cents on the Amy situation. I wasn’t upset Dean killed her. I was upset that Dean looked Sam in the eye and told him he trusted Sam’s judgement. This after telling Sam to make him his stone #1. IMO this made Dean a giant douchebag.[/quote]
This times a billion times a billion.
Then add the fact that Dean had absolutely no qualms about doing what every Angel and demon has done to Sam: Manipulate his emotions and use his love for others against him.
Dean has also lost the people he loved so him being able to and thinking nothing off using Sams lossess against him ….. its an intolerable act of cruelty….one especially heinous becasue Dean supposedly cares about Sam.
Its one think when an enemy does it: You almost expect it….but when an ally,,,when family does it…
Its betrayal.
I hope to God the writers actually have the courage to let Sam tell Dean eactly that.
I hope Sam NEVER trusts Dean with anything personal again. Instead the writers show Samm a little compassion and respect and allow him to delvelop a REAL friendship with someone he can actually trust.
I can’t support this ‘reloationship’ if the writers continue to put Dean on a pedestal and think he can’t/doesn’t do anything wrong.
Id love it if Sam told Dean how much he hurt him, that he forgives but if they continue to hunt together it will be a working relationship only. They will be hunting partners only. as it oertains to the closing of the Gates of Hell.
Then Sam gets his own car, picks up Riot and he hunts on his own….or he opens up his own bookstore…or he gets a job as a traveleing handyman. Or he and Garth become hunting partners for non mytharc jobs.
Do you think the show would exist if what you propose happens?
I actually agree that what Dean did was a betrayal of Sam but he didn’t do it to hurt Sam IMO. Right or wrong he did what he felt was right at the time. The WAY he did it was awful.
I think they both, thru the years, have done things that foster mistrust. I disagree that Sam should never trust Dean again. I WANT them to work at trust again. I don’t think it is completely beyond repair as others do.
I do not think Dean is on a pedestal. He has been made to look bad many times. Just review the comments.
[quote]Do you think the show would exist if what you propose happens?
I actually agree that what Dean did was a betrayal of Sam but he didn’t do it to hurt Sam IMO. Right or wrong he did what he felt was right at the time. The WAY he did it was awful.
The fact that Dean didn’t do it to hurt Sam and yet it never crossed his minbd that what he was doing could and WOULD hurt Sam makes it a thousand times worse. Especially with their personal history.
In Sympathy for the Devil Dean told Sam he was the ONE person he counted on to have his back. The one person he trusted. And Sam betrayed that trust. He BROKE that trust.
Well…Dean was the ONE person Sam counted on, the one person he trusted and Dean not only broke that trust and bond but he stomped it to peices and then metaphorically spit in Sam’s face.
I do think the writers put Dean oba pedastal…and preferential threatment….by giving him adn only him the POV…especially in the pivotall first half of the season.. BY making sure he is the ONLY one who get (best) friends who are given difinetive whole episodes to show how woinderful and pure and sympathetic they are., Especially when they do it BEFORE Sam gets ANY difinitive insight. By making sure Sam is isolated and friendless adn then trotting out the tired ‘he internalizes’ trope. Its the writers responsibility to open an internalizing charecotr to the audience. they could have had a charector speak from the other side to tell Sam to talk to someone.
And yes I think the show would exist if what i propsed happened…only difference is Sam would actually have a charector that orbits around him that doesn’t fall over themselves to be Deans buddy. And mostly I want Sam tio have a relationship other then Dean…cause honestly? I think Sam having someone else to interact with; be friends with a recurring charecotr like Dean has with Castiel and Benny then I think it could only enhance his relationshio with Dean…if and when they work things out to their mutual benifit,
Right now Sma and Dean are on the outs. Dean has any number of people he can talk too. Castiel…benny….he can summon Ellen, Jo or Bobby …they all have rushed from the other side to advise Dean..or talk to a random chick bartender as he is want to do.
Sam? Has literally no one he can talk to…and he ALWAYS haas to work things out alone and we dont even get the benifit of seeing it. That is unless some random demon, Angel or Dean is telling Sam why he is doing something, feels a certain way or thinks something.
I do agree that it would be nice if Sam had some friends of his own but it seems to me he doesn’t really try and cultivate friends, I’m not sure why.
[quote]I do agree that it would be nice if Sam had some friends of his own but it seems to me he doesn’t really try and cultivate friends, I’m not sure why.[/quote]
First, I see Sam as an introvert. Being one myself, I can tell you that making friends takes time for us introverts. We don’t connect immediately. We don’t reach out the first time we meet someone. It takes time and getting comfortable with people to make friends. When we do make friends, the bonds tend to be strong and committed. Moving around from town to town, job to job doesn’t give Sam the type of environment that he needs to start making friends. The three times he DID settle down, college, FTBYAM and when Dean was in Purgatory Sam developed some deep attachments. The lifestyle he and Dean live is not conducive to Sam making friends.
Then there is the way his deep relationships have turned out. Jess died in a fire pinned to a ceiling. Madison was a werewolf and Sam had to kill her, Ruby was playing and betraying him and he and Dean killed her. He finds out that he’s been followed by demons all his life and many of his “friends” were really simply possessed by demons. Heck, even his meeting Jess was arranged by a demon.
His father tells him he is so worthless that if he doesn’t go into the family business then he can walk out and never come back. Later his father orders a hit on Sam if he steps out of line.
Of the people they have known for the same amount of time, Bobby admits he likes Dean better, Ellen comes back from the grave to encourage Dean without a word for Sam. Mary says “sorry [about selling you out] and buggers off. When Krissy calls for help for her father Sam answers and Dean doesn’t. Sam finds Krissy’s dad, offers himself to the monster so that her dad won’t die and then Krissy thanks ONLY Dean. Only Jodie actually seems to like Sam for Sam
Of course there is Dean’s unending support:
From Skin
[quote]SAM: So, what am I supposed to do, just cut everybody out of my life? (DEAN shrugs.) You’re serious?
DEAN: Look, it sucks, but in a job like this, you can’t get close to people, period.[/quote]
Simon says Dean under a truth spell
[quote]DEAN
I’m trying. He’s psychic. Kind of like you. Well, not really like you, but see, he thinks you’re a murderer, and he’s afraid that he’s going to become one himself, ’cause you’re all part of something that’s terrible. And I hope to hell that he’s wrong, but I’m starting to get a little scared that he might be right.[/quote]
From Metamorphisis
[quote]DEAN
Do you even know how far off the reservation you’ve gone? How far from normal? From human?
[/quote]
[quote]DEAN
If I didn’t you know… I would wanna hunt you.
[/quote]
[quote]DEAN
You know, nice dude, but he’s got something evil inside. Something in his blood. Maybe you can relate.
[/quote]
Plus all of Dean’s lovely comments on how much better a vampire is than Sam.
Wow, now that I’ve looked at it, I can’t IMAGINE why Sam would have trouble trying to cultivate friends. He’s has do much luck in that area all his life.
I really wasn’t trying to put Sam down. In spite of all that you have referenced, I think Sam has a pretty good feeling of self worth. But he has seemed reserved from the get go. Dean, not so much for the self- worth but definitely not reserved. My nature is introverted also so I get that.
Oh, and for all the instances of Dean taking a shot at his brother there are many, many more of him being a great brother. Of course, my opinion.
Oh, I do agree that there have been many times that Dean has been a great brother, just as Sam has. Dean also has wanted Sam to stay hunting and by Dean’s side ever since season one, so some of his actions and words are unconsciously intended to remind Sam that Sam is only normal enough for Dean. Dean also believes that he, Dean, isn’t normal enough for anyone but Sam. It’s an unhealthy aspect of their relationship. Add that to Sam being an introvert, and all the dysfunction that has been in pretty much every one of his relationships, and I understand why Sam doesn’t cultivate new friends.
Dean has self esteem issues, but he is an extrovert and finds approaching and working with strangers to be easier than Sam does.
I agree.
After reading all these quotes, I’m not wanting Sam to forgive Dean at all. If Dean can continue to beat Sam up every time he’s angry why can’t Sam do the same?
The writers have been making Sam Dean’s scapegoat for seven going on eight seasons and I for one am sick of it.
Sam is perfectly capable of getting his licks in now and in the past. He is a big boy and has stood up for what he thinks is right on many occasions. He is not a doormat. If you don’t wish to see them work out their differences that is your right, but it would be the end of the show. The essence of the show is about family. Imperfect and messy but still and always family.
I disagree that the show is about family. It’s about how Dean sees things. Sam doesn’t have much POV so we don’t know how he sees things at all. If the writers don’t give Sam any sort of POV, they might as well end it because I’m tired of everything being from Dean’s POV and won’t watch anyway.
Well you could say the show is about Dean’s Family, who he choses to regard as family or not and why.
[quote]Well you could say the show is about Dean’s Family, who he choses to regard as family or not and why.[/quote]
You’re absolutely right. Said it much better than I did. Thank you.
For crying out loud. Say what you want, any way you wish to dice it, this show is about two brothers and their journey. I KNOW you are unhapppy with the show. I KNOW you feel that Sam’s character is being, to use an overused term, thrown under the bus. Sorry about that!! But they are family and will be until the end of the show. Also I am not buying into the mean old Dean not loving or wanting Sam as his brother anymore. Of course that is only MY opinion.
[quote]For crying out loud. Say what you want, any way you wish to dice it, this show is about two brothers and their journey. I KNOW you are unhapppy with the show. I KNOW you feel that Sam’s character is being, to use an overused term, thrown under the bus. Sorry about that!! But they are family and will be until the end of the show. Also I am not buying into the mean old Dean not loving or wanting Sam as his brother anymore. Of course that is only MY opinion.[/quote]
Unless Sam is given a POV, I will not change my mind on the show being Dean-centric. It has been that way since season 4. I had hope that JC would give both brothers a SL and a POV. But that hasn’t happened.
Seasons 1-3 was fairly even with both brothers being involved in the SL and both having a POV. That was the show I fell in love with. What is going on now isn’t even an imitation of what the show was. Now Sam is just a plot point to advance Dean’s story. Not something I’m interested in watching.
Hi Percy,Jo1027, Sharon, Hey guys I was not saying anyone’s opinion is bad or necessarily wrong. I was just reacting to some snide comments. As long as someone is respectful of my opinion, even if we disagree, I consider all views. I think I should be able to say that the basis of the show is family without raising the ire of those who are unhappy. I was just saying they are family in spite of everything. Opinions vary about the direction the show is taking, that doesn’t change the fact they are family. I differ only in that I think Dean cares about his brother more than you all do. I have said before that I don’t disagree that Sam needs more love from show. I’m not bitter so I guess I’ll move on to other threads!! 🙂
First let me say that I am glad that you and others are enjoying this season. It is good that people are happy with Supernatural again. Sadly I am not one of them.
Unfortunately, this is the bitterness thread, so yeah, many of us that are posting are complaining. And YES, most of the people who are truly unhappy with this season are those who think Sam is being thrown under the bus.
[quote]For crying out loud. Say what you want, any way you wish to dice it, this show is about two brothers and their journey. I KNOW you are unhapppy with the show. I KNOW you feel that Sam’s character is being, to use an overused term, thrown under the bus. Sorry about that!! But they are family and will be until the end of the show. Also I am not buying into the mean old Dean not loving or wanting Sam as his brother anymore. Of course that is only MY opinion.[/quote]
When I first heard that JC was taking over I was happy. He had shown some great insight into Sam in Mystery Spot, one of the few truly Sam centric episodes after season 2. Then I heard that Sam never looked for Dean and I began to get worried. I was determined to stick with the show to the end of the season to let Carver get the story where he wanted it. Unlike some other viewers, I didn’t think he had that much repair to do from the Gamble years. I really liked season six and I certainly enjoyed season seven more than this one. At least I could recognize Sam in season seven.
I am completely aware that EVERYONE views shows through their own prism. I’m not saying your opinion is wrong and mine is right. I am saying that I have not seen ANY interest in a Sam POV this season. In fact, I have seen less interest in Sam than I have in a long time. To ME, this season has been fairly consistent in making Sam the “bad guy”. Benny is male and hot, so he will most likely get the “Dean is so wonderful that any supernatural being will become good” treatment, the way Cas did. Poor Ruby was just a female and fandom does not react well to females who may have a romantic or sexual interest in Sam or Dean. So that pretty well means Sam is going to have to eat his words, grovel before Dean’s superior judgement and lick Benny’s boots for having EVER doubted him, even though up until now, a monster killing a hunter for any reason has been a death sentence for the monster.
The writers have spent NINE episodes with Dean repeatedly telling Sam what a crap brother and crap person he is. The only thing we see from Sam is a poorly received romance with Amelia, and a dog. By this time the idea that, yet again, Sam is deficient and bad has been cemented. Benny could murder a town full of people and Dean and fans would say, “If Sam hadn’t had Martin check on him, poor loyal Benny would never have killed anyone. It’s all Sam’s fault.”.
In other threads on this board I have seen people remark that they are surprised that Sam fans are so critical of this storyline, while Dean fans are liking it for the first time. Of course this is happening! Certain fans have been calling Sam a bad brother, selfish, cowardly (because he runs away all the time, something I dispute), a bad person for years. And now the writers have validated that. Of course the people who don’t like Sam are enjoying him more, they can now hate him and know that the writers intend them to. While Sam fans like me are saying, “No, this isn’t really Sam.” and having no support from the writers. This is a grand year for anyone who hates Sam and loves Dean and wants Dean to find better brothers than Sam. Heck, the writers have been kind enough to give Dean Benny the better brother and to recement the brotherhood between Dean and Cas (because they shared Purgatory), while leaving Sam as the lesser brother. At this point I expect Dean to tell Sam that ADAM was a better brother, just so Sam doesn’t get a swelled head and think he is worth anything.
I thought season four was bad and five only slightly better, but this season is physically PAINFUL for me. I’m holding on in the (probably vain) hope that Sam will get some kind of sympathetic edit or at least a POV that doesn’t include getting hunters killed, and Dean being cheered for tormenting Sam mentally, but I am not optimistic.
And frankly, the descriptions of the next episode are totally not helpful.
SPOILERS!!
[spoiler]The adventures of Dean and Cas with a side of the Days of Sam’s lives is not what I signed up for.[/spoiler]
So as of now, no I am very unhappy.
[quote]For crying out loud. Say what you want, any way you wish to dice it, this show is about two brothers and their journey. I KNOW you are unhapppy with the show. I KNOW you feel that Sam’s character is being, to use an overused term, thrown under the bus. Sorry about that!! But they are family and will be until the end of the show. Also I am not buying into the mean old Dean not loving or wanting Sam as his brother anymore. Of course that is only MY opinion.[/quote]
Well I certainly didnt need Sam being dragged through the mud again or his reputation has a brother futher undermined it is very unappetizing for me. I know they are brothers but out of the two who has the two brother type relationships and for the brothers to work people have to believe in both brothers and that has what has been damaged in my book.
Post cage I had hoped we would not travel down this path again and hearing Dean bring those resentments back up , declare Benny is a better brother than you have ever been was not only sad to see but uncomfortable as well.
We all know the writers will give some sort of panacea to the brother’s relationship but I wonder wether it has gone too far this time ?.
I am on a rewatch of Season 1 now… and I just don´t see, where you are coming from.
The last episode I watched, Sam shot Dean. He didn´t only try to, he pulled the trigger. Thrice.
This Episode, Sam will ditch Dean and let him go on a hunt alone, because he wants to go after their father, who explicitly stated, hee wanted the boys out of his hunt, because it´s too dangerous.
And in the next episode, Sam will raise hell and high water, to safe his dying brother’s life. No matter the cost.
In my world… They´re not even half as bad right now, as they have been before at several points over the seasons.
They´re just pissed at each other… which is kinda a normal state for them 🙂
Sorry but we are a millon miles from season 1 and alot has happened in between esp from season 4 onwards with both how the relationship is presented and how the fandom views it. And we did not have other factors either. I dont think anybody has a invalid pov just a different view of things.
[quote]I am on a rewatch of Season 1 now… and I just don´t see, where you are coming from.
The last episode I watched, Sam shot Dean. He didn´t only try to, he pulled the trigger. Thrice.
This Episode, Sam will ditch Dean and let him go on a hunt alone, because he wants to go after their father, who explicitly stated, hee wanted the boys out of his hunt, because it´s too dangerous.
And in the next episode, Sam will raise hell and high water, to safe his dying brother’s life. No matter the cost.
In my world… They´re not even half as bad right now, as they have been before at several points over the seasons.
They´re just pissed at each other… which is kinda a normal state for them :)[/quote]
He shot Dean under the influence of the mad doctor. I think Dean is as much to blame as he’s the one who handed him the gun. Why do that?
Sam’s expressed purpose in hunting again was to find his father and kill the YED. That was not what Dean was doing at that point which is what Sam left to do. Also, when did John tell the boys that it was too dangerous? Maybe I’m just not remembering it right but can’t recall him telling them that. He did tell Missouri. Sorry if I’m wrong about that.
Not sure what the last one is. Faith? If so, what do you find wrong with that in reference to my post?
[quote][quote]I am on a rewatch of Season 1 now… and I just don´t see, where you are coming from.
The last episode I watched, Sam shot Dean. He didn´t only try to, he pulled the trigger. Thrice.
This Episode, Sam will ditch Dean and let him go on a hunt alone, because he wants to go after their father, who explicitly stated, hee wanted the boys out of his hunt, because it´s too dangerous.
And in the next episode, Sam will raise hell and high water, to safe his dying brother’s life. No matter the cost.
In my world… They´re not even half as bad right now, as they have been before at several points over the seasons.
They´re just pissed at each other… which is kinda a normal state for them :)[/quote]
He shot Dean under the influence of the mad doctor. I think Dean is as much to blame as he’s the one who handed him the gun. Why do that?
Sam’s expressed purpose in hunting again was to find his father and kill the YED. That was not what Dean was doing at that point which is what Sam left to do. Also, when did John tell the boys that it was too dangerous? Maybe I’m just not remembering it right but can’t recall him telling them that. He did tell Missouri. Sorry if I’m wrong about that.
Not sure what the last one is. Faith? If so, what do you find wrong with that in reference to my post?[/quote]
Nothing wrong with Faith, or Sam, or the way Sam or Dean acted in any of the episodes.
It´s just, they have been fallen out with each other so often and gone through so much pain….
The simple fact, that they have some problems with each other right now, because they have to find a way together again, after their extremely different last year…
Dunno… it barely gets a shrug from me.
Btw. John told Dean, in the phonecall in the beginning.
They argue and fuss a lot, that’s agreed, Fluffy. They always have. Like a lot of siblings.
They’ve disagreed and fought, but it’s always been out of a sense of love. respect and/or caring for the other… Trying to get the other to see their side.
This season it seems all the petty things of the past are coming back. Things they’ve moved on from and earned forgiveness for. Neither is looking very much like the brother of past seasons here.
Even when at their lowest points (look at the infamous phone call in Lucifer Rising – Dean reached out, and Sam needed to hear a message of forgiveness/understanding from him. Damn interfering angels and demons!)…. They’ve both always wanted – and tried for – a bond with the other. This year… until Citizen Fang, where they both tried for a minute, until it all came crashing back down… It’s just not been there. imo
It may not “get a shrug” from your perspective, and that’s fine. But from mine, the fighting seems contrived, petty, and uncaring… And that’s never been characteristics either brother before.
While I’m trying to remain much more positive, I am also afraid that the writers are taking it much too far this year to ever satisfactorily recover. I hope they can pull the rabbit out of the hat and do it.
[b]Fluffy[/b], there is a huge difference between Sam and Dean’s disagreements in the first season and now.
Yes, Sam shot Dean in [i]Asylum[/i], but I never believed Sam didn’t care about Dean. He was simply upset w/Dean (and had been for a long time) for blindly following John’s orders. It’s b/c Sam respected Dean as a hunter and a man that he thought Dean should be making his own decisions instead of just doing whatever John wanted. [i]Asylum [/i] highlighted that Sam was probably always upset w/Dean for never questioning John or taking a stand against him. Even in Sam’s accusation that Dean is a pathetic, it’s more about Dean not being his “own man” than thinking Dean is actually a pathetic individual. Again, I think Sam had a lot of respect for Dean’s intelligence and skills so it was baffling to him why Dean always just “took orders” from John. Sam thought Dean was intelligent and skilled enough to make his own decisions, etc.
In [i]Skin[/i], the shapeshifter voiced some of Dean’s concerns re: Sam, John, and Dean’s own importance to them, but again, I never felt like Dean was holding things against Sam or that Dean didn’t trust Sam. That episode mostly highlighted Dean’s low self-esteem issues and how he felt everyone was always going to leave him. I do think Dean resented Sam for leaving for college, but over the course of the season, I feel a lot of those issues were resolved. In [i]Scarecrow[/i], Dean admits to being proud of Sam for standing up against John and even says he wishes he could do the same. Basically, Dean wishes he could risk John’s approval (and love) like Sam does, but he can’t.
There was a love and a bond underlying all those early season issues. Now, it’s different. T
Simply put, back then, I never got the sense that the brothers didn’t like each other. This season, I have no idea why they’re together. JC has managed the impossible for me – he’s made me NOT CARE if Sam and Dean separate. In fact, given the story he’s told, I think it would be best for Dean and Sam to go their separate ways since they clearly do not want to be together.
Sam shows little interest in Dean’s “resurrection” from the dead and actively doesn’t want to hunt. Dean has NO faith or trust in Sam, doesn’t think Sam is a good brother, and believes a vampire is a better brother to him than Sam has EVER been yet he still wants Sam by his side. Why? Why does Sam stay? Why does Dean keep Sam w/him? Southern Comfort showed that Dean has never really and truly forgiven Sam for anything. He actually resents Sam for going to college (something most 18-yr. olds do) and for being soulless (something of which Sam had NO control). Sam didn’t bother to investigate Dean’s disappearance at all and seemed inconvenienced by Dean’s return. Why? Why did JC go this horrible route w/the boys?
The writers can’t keep picking at this relationship and chipping away at everything that made it special AND think it remains credible for these two GROWN men to be together. If Sam hates hunting so much and wants Amelia, then he needs to leave. If Dean distrusts Sam, resents Sam for every bad choice Sam has made, and thinks Sam is a horrible brother, then he needs to let Sam go. It’s not believable anymore. JC has destroyed the bond, and I doubt he’ll address all the issues he created for the sole purpose of conflict to make the relationship believable!
What most bugs me is that Sam and Dean were in a good place (with each other) in the second half of S6 and S7. None of this was necessary. None of it was natural and organic to the characters. JC had Sam behave in a OOC way by not looking for Dean so the boys would be in conflict. Why? What purpose does that serve? It certainly hasn’t made the show more enjoyable to me. In fact, it has ruined the show. In case JC wasn’t aware, the boys were in conflict for 3 1/2 seasons (4-6). There was no need to do it again, IMO.
In season one, Dean had not yet become the voice of all that is right and good and Sam was more than the guy who betrayed his brother and released Lucifer. In season one, both brothers were shown as having differing, but valid viewpoints. In season one NEITHER brother told the other how superior other relationships were. Yes, in Asylum, Sam voiced many of his resentments and yes he shot Dean four times. But he was under the spell of a mad doctor who forced people’s anger to rise to the point where they wanted to kill. The sentiments were real, the actions, not so much.
In season one, I didn’t give a hoot and a holler what John wanted. He hadn’t talked to Sam IN FOUR YEARS. And John didn’t want them out of the hunt because it was too dangerous, he wanted them to keep hunting things that were just as dangerous so he could keep his obsession for finding the YED all to himself. Good Lord, he was sending the boys up against a GOD and AN ENTIRE TOWN protecting that god. The YED was good, but certainly not more dangerous than a god and 30-40 followers. Plus, Meg had already picked up Sam’s scent, he was in the hunt for the YED, except he was the hunted and John wasn’t protecting him from that.
In season one, the boys had been separated for 2-4 years. They were learning about the men they had become during that time and learning to appreciate each others strengths and reevaluate each others weaknesses. They weren’t passive/aggressively sniping at each other about previous failures. And they weren’t manipulating each other by using phoney phone calls to get away from each other. They weren’t lying to each other about vampire friends or demon girlfriends. And they weren’t bringing up past sins that had already been forgiven.
In season eight, Dean is the poor betrayed brother who, for no reason I can see, wants Sam to be by his side forever, even though he believes that Sam has lied to him ever since he got into the car in season one, who will never forgive Sam for Ruby even though Sam suffered torture for 180 years to avert the end of the world and make amends, and who is willing to use Sam’s worst fears, that a woman he cares about is in danger to manipulate him. Sam is hunting because he feels responsible for dropping the ball on Kevin and Dean and because he wants to close the gates of Hell and Dean is dinging him for wanting to leave hunting.
In season eight we have been given a Sam who didn’t look for Dean, which many of us see as OOC and whose POV about Dean and hunting have never been shown. All we have seen is how he related to Amelia during the year Dean was missing, which has not been linked to the brotherly relationship nor has it shown why Sam suddenly broke pattern and simply dropped out.
Season eight has years of resentment coming to a boil. Season one had two different men coming to an understanding. The feel and actions are totally different for me.
We see this show through different prisms. I see the boys as so far apart and with so much anger, especially from Dean, that I don’t see how they can reconcile and have both be happy. I don’t want Sam to totally fold to Dean’s desires, but what else is there? Sam doesn’t want to hunt. Dean wants Sam by his side hunting until they both get killed by monsters and if by some chance Dean is actually killed, he has made it clear that he won’t accept Sam finding a life where he no longer throws himself at monsters and hopes to get out alive. Considering the structure of the show is two brothers on the road hunting, Dean gets to win and Sam gets to give up all his dreams, knowing that Dean considers Sam to unworthy and less than a vampire or an angel that destroyed Sam’s mind. And that sucks.
[quote]I actually agree that what Dean did was a betrayal of Sam but he didn’t do it to hurt Sam IMO. Right or wrong he did what he felt was right at the time. The WAY he did it was awful. [/quote]
And if the same standard was used for Sam, I’d agree. But Sam is still getting hammered on the show and in fandom for what he did with Ruby. He was trying to stop Lilith the way he FELT WAS RIGHT AT THE TIME. The Angels weren’t offering any suggestions to stop her. Dean didn’t have any ideas and Sam was being told by angels and demons alike that Lilith had to be stopped. If doing what you think is the right thing at the time makes everything immediately absolved, then Sam shouldn’t have Ruby still hanging over his head.
So let’s look at The Mentalists. Sam walks off and they don’t see each other for a week. Mid-episode we get this conversation.
[quote]DEAN: You’re pissed, okay? And you’ve got a right.
SAM: Yeah, damn straight.
DEAN: But enough’s enough. [/quote]
So one week after Sam finds out that Dean has been lying to him for months, Dean tells Sam to just get the heck over it, because Dean thinks it’s time. But two years later, our time, and FOUR years later in show time Dean is STILL hanging on to being mad at Sam, because apparently Dean gets to feel mad and betrayed as long as he wants, but Sam, he’s supposed to snap out of things on Dean’s timetable.
And at the end of The Mentalists. This is after Sam has admitted that Dean may have been right to kill Amy.
[quote]DEAN: I went with my gut. And that felt right. I didn’t trust her, Sam. Of course, ever since Cas, I’m having a hard time trusting anybody. And as far as how I been acting… I don’t know.[b] Maybe it’s ’cause I don’t like lying to you. You know, it doesn’t feel right.[/b] So, yeah, you got me there. I been climbing the walls.[/quote]
Dean doesn’t apologize for lying to Sam, instead we are treated to how bad DEAN felt about lying to Sam. Never mind that Dean knew Sam had trouble telling truth from reality and that Dean had promised to be the stone so that Sam could figure out what was real. The only thing that mattered was how Dean was affected by all this. Add this to Ellen reaching out from beyond the grave to reassure a NOT hallucinating Dean that he had it so much worse and should tell someone AND the museum guide making sure Dean knew that the caretakers like Dean are so much MORE IMPORTANT than the other person in the relationship.
I do know that the show doesn’t work unless the boys are working together and traveling together. But in order for this to happen, it’s looking like Sam is going to have to just forgive Dean for this latest stunt, because Dean will say, hey it’s been 24 hours, time to get over it, not because Sam will be given the time to process when he wants to forgive. And Sam will go back knowing that Dean has not and never will forgive him for his transgressions and that whenever Dean needs to yank Sam’s chains Dean will bring them up. It’s not a health situation and IRL I would want the boys to split because as of now, I can’t see how it becomes healthy. For TV, Sam will accept whatever apology Dean has to offer, fandom will accuse Dean of groveling for even daring to say that he ever made a mistake, and if he did he did it because he believed it was right so he shouldn’t apologize and things will go back to Dean calling the shots.
For what it’s worth, I hope it doesn’t happen that way. I am hoping for more of a satisfying resolution. Yes, some growth on Dean’s part. And some acknowledgement that there are issues on both sides to be dealt with. I don’t know about the fandom as a whole but I never ravaged Sam for the whole Lilith debacle. They are pointedly making Dean look very unforgiving and petty at times this year, so from that perspective I am having some issues. I am enjoying the season so I am hoping there is a point to all this. I understand Sam’s wish to have normal and I also get Dean’s disappointment about Sam not looking and subsequently appearing to settle down. Maybe they should part for a time but I completely agree the show works better with them together.
I know it seems like Dean is being petty to you, but I see it a little differently. I see it as a logical part of Dean’s black and white view of the world. If Dean loves you, you’re good. If you’ve betrayed Dean you’re bad. And DAMN Dean holds onto things (both grudges and love) for frick’n ever.
Look at John. For Dean he was the perfect father and hunter. He held onto that through most of seasons 1-3. He did admit it was awful that John put having to kill Sam on him, but he pretty much still loved John. And what finally makes him talk against John is finding out about Adam. It’s never clear if his anger was because Dean had always pictured John as being faithful to Mary, or if it was because when John found out he had a son he did (what I think) was the right thing. John kept Adam out of hunting and tried to visit him and give him some kind of father figure once or twice a year. But in that episode, Sam states that he understands John and tries to train “Adam” to protect himself. Dean says that Sam is like John. Sam takes it as a compliment and Dean makes it abundantly clear that it isn’t a compliment. Suddenly John was a bad person and a bad father and Dean really doesn’t waver on that. When they go back in time in TSRTS Dean interacts mostly with Mary, while Sam makes peace with and forgives John in advance. It is not until Dean decides that John was unworthy that Bobby suddenly is presented as a surrogate father to the boys. Sam seems to NOT see Bobby as a father figure. He loves Bobby but the level of family is less between Bobby and Sam than between Bobby and Dean.
Even though Dean still loved and wanted to be Sam in season one he could NOT let go of the fact that Sam wanted to go to college at all and that Sam wanted to stay with Jess and have a different life. Heck, all the way through season five Dean is telling Sam that Sam leaving for college was the worst day of Dean’s life. Not when Mary died, not when John died, not when Sam died, not when Dean went to Hell, Sam going to school was the worst thing ever. The second worst was when Sam was so unhappy that he ran away.
I see Dean as an emotional hoarder. He packs away love, hate, good, bad and never ever lets go of any of them. Dean held onto his love for Cassie for years, even though he only knew her 1-2 months. He held onto the dream of Lisa and Ben all through the Apocalypse and beyond. He held onto the dream of finding John and Sam dropping out of college so he could have the life he led when Sam was a kid. His most intense and longest relationship is with Sam and he swings between Sam is good and Sam is a betrayer for much of the series. So his not having forgiven Sam for Ruby and even for college is in character for me. Dean was able to pack away the negatives of Sam leaving him for college until the Ruby betrayal, when he unpacked all those little and big resentments. After Sam’s swan dive and resurrection helped Dean put most of the resentments back in the box and then they came out again with Soulless!Sam’s actions. Then Dean was able to overlook his unpacked baggage with a fragile and resouled Sam. After Purgatory, Dean found out Sam didn’t look for him and IMHO, it’s like he looked around, saw all of that baggage that he had been ignoring and latched onto it again, because again Sam had moved into betrayer land.
Benny hasn’t had time to do things that Dean will be hurt or angered by. They fought side by side in Purgatory saving each others lives. So Dean is holding onto Benny the good companion just as hard as he is holding onto Sam the betrayer. He has told Benny to keep his nose clean, but he has exhibited ambivalence about what to do about Benny when talking to Sam. It is a reflection of how he felt about Sam after John (Dean’s perfect father) told him that at some point Dean might have to kill Sam (Dean’s beloved brother). He promised John he would kill Sam, but he did everything in his power to not do it including refusing to see or at least acknowledge the evil that Sam did while possessed.
Dean has been portrayed as seeing things as black or white since season one. Then it was all monsters are evil. He moved toward seeing gray as the years past, but that characteristic was pretty hardwired into his psyche. Now, he is giving some monsters the benefit of the doubt, but his black and white views are shifting over to Sam.
Both Sam and Dean are damaged, complicated men. Sam’s mistakes have been epic and they have hurt Dean and the world. I would like to think they could find a balance so that they can rebuild their relationship, but as of now, I’m having trouble seeing a path in that direction. I hope the writers have a better view than I do.
I still see a few things differently but many of your insights ring true to me. One of the things I feel is that Dean still deeply loves his dad and Sam. For whatever reason he idealizes people and they do fall in his eyes when they let him down. I think his deal with his father was more about coming to grips with the fact that Dad wasn’t perfect and furthermore damaged both of them with his strict rules and disipline. Particularly Dean, piling all that responsibility on his young shoulders.
My thoughts on Sam and college is that Dean was always afraid to lose the person he shared the most with since childhood. I think that the night Sam left was tramatic for all concerned, especially Dean, who could only see his little brother leaving, maybe forever. It probably WAS the worst moment, that is what he has always feared the most. He hasn’t always expressed that in the most positive way. I also think when Sam ran away, it was on Dean’s watch and there was hell to pay by his dad on top of Sam disappearing. Not a good time for Dean indeed. We all saw how John reacted to Dean not watching and protecting Sam at all costs.
Dean’s initial reaction to the Adam situation was hurt and some jealousy IMO due to the tough life his dad forced on them. Finding out he took his secret son out to baseball games had to sting hugely. I do think he tried to push past that to help “Adam”. I always thought his comments to Sam about being like their dad was about the stubborness and singlemindedness they both possess.
I’m not saying my thoughts are right, just how I saw it at the time. By the way, percy, I LOVE that last paragraph.
In case I wasn’t clear, I know you think “Sam’s mistakes” etc are what the show is focusing on and you want to see a better balance! I personally don’t see Sam that way, but I do hope the writers can repair this in a satisfying way for most of us. I have more hope and confidence than you do right now but only time will tell. Hang in there.
I kind of agre with percy. I DO think Show – mainly because Dean is the main POV – is focusing on Sam s mistakes….and basically Show (via Dean) sees Sam as the sum of his mistakes and betrayals against Dean.
Its not fair to Sam or his fans. That Sam is not seen as his own person…but only how he affects Dean.
I think this isd why I NEED Sam to have his own friends outside of Dean…and certainly not Deans hand me down friends. HIS OWN, Friends that the writers take the same time and effort cultivating the relationship as they do Dean’s friends. Adn not the crappy disjointed story telling with Sam and Ameila.
I think the only way there can be a balence is Sam has ONE true friend on this show (outside Dean). ONE friend he can talk to, go to, laugh with. Open up to and feel safe opening up to. And KNOW this friend isn’t going to suddnly spring every past transgression in his face on a yearly basis. Or use his knowledge of Sam to manipulate or control him.
I need to see this BEFORE the series ends…cause I want hat the Dean fans are getting with Castiel and Benny. I want to spend time in Sam and his friends relatuionship…i want to root for it. I want to see some great scenes between them.
Personally, while I hope Sam and Deans relatinship can be fixed I honestly dont see it happening simply because Carver has explicetly stated that “No one is more a fan of Dean and Castiel then he is.” And has never said one thing about Sam
Carver will never adn I dont think he can ever do right by Sam…as a person…as a hunter. he isn’t invested in Sam. And he isn’t invested in Sam’s relationships. The minimal murky work done for Sam and the overwealming clear, detailed landscape for Dean and Castiel is evidence.
Amy, I think it would be very nice if Sam had a friend that he could share things with.
[quote]Carver will never adn I dont think he can ever do right by Sam…as a person…as a hunter. he isn’t invested in Sam. And he isn’t invested in Sam’s relationships. The minimal murky work done for Sam and the overwealming clear, detailed landscape for Dean and Castiel is evidence.[/quote]
Every time I try to figure it out, it’s endlessly strange to me that the writers aren’t more enthusiastic about writing for this character. Sam has got many juicy dilemmas going for him, such as the continuing battle against the “evil within” that he had imposed on him almost from birth, and the problem of how to recover his bearings after his fall from grace. The former, along with the presence or absence of his paranormal powers, has scarcely been mentioned since his return from the cage, and the latter was first cast in terms of gaining Dean’s forgiveness, then dismissed with “I went to Hell, so I guess I’m square.” How to reorient yourself and how to recover your identity or create a new understanding of yourself after becoming seriously morally compromised is a complicated but very interesting issue, and would be especially so for a sort of “crusader” such as a hunter. A storyline like this would be more compelling for Sam than the generic “I want a normal life”, although the desire for a normal life could be part of it if he wanted off the crazy train or thought he should take himself out of the game because he can’t trust himself. It would give us a good insight into the way he thinks about the bigger questions of life.
I know they invented the Dean POV early in the series as a storytelling device because Sam was the problem — the mystery to be unraveled — and they presented the story to us through the eyes of a concerned and apprehensive brother. I’m not sure when this technique became a crutch, though, because it persisted even after the revelations were complete. Gamble relied on inventing new problems for Sam, such as the soullessness and the wall, to keep the dynamic going, but it became a bit threadbare, because the revealed destiny had raised the stakes so high for the characters that the story really demanded a Sam POV be added in processing the fallout. Now that Carver has ostensibly switched things up and awarded Sam the human story, we see just how poorly it works, because after all this time keeping their distance, the writers now truly have difficulty getting inside the head of the character. Sam has a storyline that seems to have been developed in opposition to the story they want to do for Dean: they need Sam’s apparent disloyalty to trigger the issues Dean has with black-or-white thinking, especially in the wake of his trip to Purgatory. It doesn’t feel organic to Sam, however. It has a weak basis, it’s weakly told, and it’s alienating. Perhaps it’s not only the over reliance on the Dean POV as a storytelling device — perhaps they also don’t readily identify with the intelligent introvert. That problem would hardly be unique on TV. Scriptwriters seem to love the nerdy characters when it comes to advancing the plot, but they don’t always understand or trust them in general.
Maybe monster jail would be an idea worth exploring. 🙂
It’s true that show has taken the time to show that monsters have different perspectives, motivations, etc. Not all monsters are created equal. It’s interesting to watch show tackle the gray areas.
I think show did a lot more shielding the boys from the hard kills in the early years. You give some good examples in citing SueAnn, Max, the Benders, or even the monster from 4.4. They were also the boys who worried about the demon hosts. I think as they’ve grown older (and show with them), they’ve had to face more of the hard questions/choices. Think about the magician in The Mentalists or the villain of Plucky’s–they were both humans and the boys killed them. But since Amy wasn’t a person like Max or SueAnn, etc, but a murderous monster, it was an easier call for Dean, who had no connection to her. Sam even agreed–until this year when he didn’t. Then again, Dean forgave Sam until he didn’t, so both boys are getting a bit of a characterization twist for plot’s sake, aren’t they?
I think Sam still agrees. I think what bothers him is that when it’s his friend Dean makes the call and convinces Sam that it is right. When it is Dean’s friend, the rules go out the window. I’m pretty sure that once Sam conceded that Amy needed to die he stuck with that. It’s Dean’s double standard that is making Sam feel like tearing his hair out.
Dean was on Sam to just go along with monsters who kill must die and you can’t trust a monster who was a friend and if you are too close to the situation then your brother should evaluate and make the call. Now Dean wants Sam to turn on a dime and just give Benny the benefit of the doubt. And if a friend of Sam comes back and Sam wants to give him/her the benefit of the doubt, I’m reasonably sure that Dean will AGAIN declare that Dean doesn’t trust whoever and that Dean must make the final call no matter what Sam thinks.
But isn’t Sam the one who believes that each situation should be looked at individually? He’s been after Dean for many years not to adopt such a black and white viewpoint regarding monsters, and Dean has been evolving on this particular point for a long time. He’s let monsters live, he’s worked with the supernatural (reluctantly at times, but still), and found himself even trusting a supernatural being in Castiel. So to me, this isn’t “the rules going out the window”, but Dean continuing a progression and remaining true to his character trait of loyalty to his friends/family. Now, on the latter he’s consistent, but on the former, he isn’t, because when you judge based on situation instead of a set set of principles that’s going to happen. Hypocritical? Probably, but that’s not surprising or unforgiveable to me. Obviously, mileage varies.
Mileage may also vary on this, but Sam’s showing some double standards of his own here. He was completely willing to let Amy, a known murderer of less than 6 hours prior, go based only on her word (and to me, he does indeed sound like he’s done a 180 here in suddenly championing her). He was willing to let Kate from Bitten go based solely upon a plea in a video. But he is unwilling to consider that Benny might deserve that same benefit of the doubt based only on Dean’s say so, even though he was (justifiably) angry when Dean didn’t extend him the same regarding Amy. I’m willing to extend him the same cover under the judging by situation cover for that inconsistency as Dean, but let’s be real. Dean’s not the only one exhibiting some “Do as I say, not as I do” behavior here.
But then, I’ve always thought that both Sam and Dean were wonderful hypocrites, so that’s true to character for both of them.
[quote]But isn’t Sam the one who believes that each situation should be looked at individually?[/quote]But you see Sam is looking at the situation individually .If not he would have let Benny go.For Sam he knew Amy,he Saw what happened to Kate.He has had one hand shake with Benny.So he is in fact taking up situations individually.He has let monsters live when he has been convinced not because Dean told him.Amy was a known murderer who had done her last kill as her kid was healthy.The medicine was no longer required.I find her less threatening as she was not acting because of her monstrous nature…She had it under control.So it was reasonable to assume to give her a chance.
I have found Dean to be a hypocrite and Sam not because Sam treats individual situations separately and he is true to it and Dean till now treated all monsters alike and now he does not (when it is convenient for his friend).
I’m not saying Sam isn’t looking at each situation individually–I’m saying Dean is doing the same thing, but some, including Sam, seem to think he shouldn’t be allowed to do so.
Sam didn’t know Amy. He spent about three hours with her fifteen years ago. He didn’t know her, and he had no reason to trust her word that she totally wouldn’t murder anyone else if she thought it was necessary. To me, the fact that she was totally in control but was still killing strangers with zero compassion or remorse makes her just as scary as any control monster.
I don’t see how Dean is a hypocrite and Sam is looking at situations individually when they are engaging in the exact same behaviors. Dean hasn’t been strictly black and white concerning monsters for a long time, though he is not as easy to convince as Sam of monsters’ good intentions. But if Sam is allowed to look at situations individually and act in contrary manners given circumstances, I’m not sure why he should be praised while Dean is slammed, if we’re trying to look at the boys fairly.
[quote]I’m saying Dean is doing the same thing, but some, including Sam, seem to think he shouldn’t be allowed to do so.[/quote]He does it Selectively ,when it suits his purposes.[quote]Dean hasn’t been strictly black and white concerning monsters for a long time[/quote]the same comment as above.Sam is always looking at situations individually.
I don’t understand how “he does it selectively, when it suits his purposes” is different from “is always looking at situations individually.” Yet it seems that you’re saying that Dean doing this is hypocritical, but Sam doing this is good. Is there a reason for that different standard?
[quote]he does it selectively, when it suits his purposes[/quote]In my books this is bad.[quote]s always looking at situations individually.[/quote]This is good.
Dean doing it selectively when it suits him is wrong. you have to be always looking at things individually to be fair and Dean is simply not.Dean is using a double standard when dealing with his friends and Sam’s friends.
So it’s impossible for Dean to look at Sam’s friends objectively. He only chooses to serve his own interests and is unfair. But when Sam judges his friends differently than Dean’s fans, he is being completely objective and fair.
I think that’s a pretty big double standard right there. There’s obviously not going to be middle ground here, so I’ll agree to disagree and move on.
[quote]But when Sam judges his friends differently than Dean’s fans,[/quote]That is the thing.Sam did not judge immediately if Benny is a vampire who saved his brother’s hide in purgatory he must be bad.He had martin tail him to see how actually Benny is. There is huge huge difference between how Sam decided about Benny and Dean decided about Amy.Dean simply did not give Amy a chance[quote]I think that’s a pretty big double standard right there.[/quote]You are free to think that but in this case I am positive I don’t have any double standards.
I can agree that Dean is showing that he doesn’t really trust anyone this season. This does provide some mixed signals. Dean is the one best able to make the decision on whether Benny can be trusted, given he is the one who has known him, been saved by him, fought at his side, etc., but the past has proven that just because these things are true doesn’t mean that Dean can trust them necessarily. I can agree that this isn’t a healthy attitude, but I can see how he got to this place, frankly. Benny is a monster who may be keeping his nose clean now but could snap any time. Castiel has his leviathan history and left him behind in purgatory before getting himself left behind. Sam flat out told him he didn’t know if he was dead or alive and didn’t try to find out. To me, Dean’s trust issues are well justified at this point.
I can agree that Kate and Lenore were humanized by their victim status. Amy was humanized by her motivations, but at the end of the day, she was the only one who killed strangers as a means to an end. So she still is not on the same footing, in my opinion.
From the outside, we can see Martin as a poor, crazy hunter (though for me we can’t have it both ways–either Martin was a poor, crazy hunter whom Sam never should have called in, or he was fully capable and did a reprehensible thing to Elizabeth which caused his own death), but there’s no reason for Benny to take that into consideration. He doesn’t know Martin’s history. All he sees is a man willing to kidnap and assault his granddaughter to kill him for things that (as far as we know) he was not guilty of. So I’m not sure why we should be expecting him to show Martin that much consideration, and like I said show is fairly consistenct on its opinion on that.
Further, I can agree that Dean’s actions have excerbated the situation with Sam and Benny. By keeping him a secret, he revealed that he isn’t as completely trusting of Benny as he pretends. But as Sam digs in, so does Dean. Sam was immediately against Benny and didn’t seem to want to really find out why Dean trusted him or to really discuss it any more than Dean did. They both planted their flags and established their trenches. But I do agree that Dean’s actions play a big part in the conflict now, just as Sam’s do. So we agree.
Well then this is the difference between our thoughts ..This season Dean’s actions play a bigger part than Sam’s.
Exactly–no matter where Sam and Dean came down on Max or the monster in 4.4 or even the Anti-Christ, ultimately the decision was taken out of their hands by show so they didn’t have to deal with those questions.
I feel like it’s probably inevitable that Benny will fall off the wagon. I’m just not sure why it’s going to be Dean’s responsibility if/when he does. As I was discussing above, Dean doesn’t really trust Benny, considering that he went in to talk to him armed in 8.9. So if Benny goes rogue, I think he’ll just be falling in line with Dean’s cynical viewpoint that everyone he knows seems to go this route at some point. I’m not sure that Dean’s going to learn much from that, so as a plotline I just don’t get from that.
I agree that in some cases we haven’t been given the proper context to completely understand what’s up, though there’s part of me that thinks that we have but we don’t want that to be all there is. We’ll see, I suppose.
[quote]that everyone he knows seems to go this route at some point.[/quote]including himself which he cannot see.Dean seems to forget the misery he brought Sam after bringing him back from dead.
you know for me I am just getting sick of it. its the writer and JC F-ing it up last season the whole Amy thing should of never happen and that the hate of season 7 but to have in season 8 to have benny that we do not even know about his past he could of killed people we do not know and having dean trust him is about the most WTF? thing ever and I just loss alitte bit of faith in this show. And if I see the next eps in jan dumbass way sam goes back to dean I just say I had it they both need to stay away from each other just for alitte time ok because this brothership is well dead dean does not trust sam anymore so just stay away then. how can the wirter dug themself out of this?
I allso do not like the jared getting off the show too it getting hard to hear too he does this show for his fans and thats it and I say HIS FANS! not the ones that say they love him and then go online and bash sam for this and that.The ones who truly care about sam and like the dean/jensen fans care about him thats all I am saying hear. Why in gods name can’t we love them both I know that sam and dean F-up all the time but I kind of try to like them both but its hard too.
[quote]sorry. let me clarify. it had nothing to do with sam’s wackadoodle fbs. what i’m saying is that sam told dean in the first eppy that he thought he died. he stopped hunting because he lost everyone. he was alone. he ran.
dean totally glossed over what sam said about believing his brother died. after sam said he ran away….dean asked if there was a girl. sam said there was and then there wasn’t. dean then jumped to the conclusion that sam abandoned him in purgatory because of a girl. even though sam had no idea dean was in purgatory. even though he told him he believed he died.
so again, show gives the audience dean’s pov, how he sees things and unfortuately, the way dean sees things is what the audience believes. i have seen so many comments from so many people who are upset with sam because they think he abandoned his brother. he just gave up on looking.
in actuality we haven’t gotten sam’s side of what really happened. just these off the wall fbs with a girl he has no chemistry with. fb’s that have shown not an inkling of love between what is supposed to be a love interest. fbs that have left most people confused about what the hell is really going on with sam.
we haven’t gotten sam’s pov about what it was like that moment when he thought dean and cas were dead. we saw nothing of the two months prior to sam hitting the dog. we don’t really know what was happening with sam at all. and i have no doubt that sam has a story to tell and it’s not the same story going on in dean’s head.
kind of rambled, but that’s what i mean when i say we only got to see things the way dean sees them and not the way they really happened.[/quote]
[quote]i understand and i would like to see what sam did and thought before he hit the dog myself. but i would also like to see dean’s life after castiel left him stranded in purgatory. we don’t know what/how dean did/survive by himself or how long was it before he met benny. so you can say we haven’t seen sam nor deans point of view during those initial hours/days/months. we do know sams point of view originally-he thought he didn’t have anybody left so he ran. thats a point of view. we just don’t know how messed up he was and why is he so angry all the time. yeah i would say we are missing a big picture for both sam and dean.[/quote]
For me the difference between not seeing Sam immediately after Dean disappeared and not seeing Dean after Cas disappeared is very different. What Sam did next is OOC and has absolutely no context. We don’t know how he decided Dean was dead. We don’t know what he did or didn’t do to destroy the lab. We don’t know what “running” meant. Did a Leviathan take Dean’s shape and “die” in Sam’s arms? Did Sam blow up the lab and one of the escaping Leviathans tell him that Dean was in there and Sam killed his own brother? Sam’s deciding Dean was not only dead, but really most sincerely dead shaped his actions and his entire year. In order to understand Sam’s choices we need to see why he gave up on Dean.
Dean told us that Purgatory was a constant pure fight and we got to see that when he met Benny. He said Cas was gone and then we got to see not only what Dean believed happened but what actually happened. We saw the incidents and the context that led to Dean’s trusting Benny and to his initial PTSD. The first few minutes after Cas left aren’t what shaped Dean into the man who came back, the time with Benny, fighting to find Cas, fighting with Benny and Cas, agreeing to take Benny out of Purgatory because he trusted him, having Cas left behind in Purgatory have all been shown.
Sam’s mindset, why he was so panicked about hitting the dog, why he spent time rebuilding the Impala, when he ditched his phones have not been shown. We have been shown where Sam ended up, with Amelia, but not the incidents that got him there. All we have is how Dean has interpreted the limited information that he has on what Sam did. And Dean, as nappi has pointed out, ignored one of Sam’s answers completely and when Sam said he had found something he never had before, refused to ask or find out what that was exactly, so we don’t know either.
Perhaps other things happened in Purgatory that shaped Dean in ways we don’t know yet, and if that is true I would want to see that. But right now Dean’s character is consistent with a hunter who finds himself alone and surrounded by monsters, makes a weapon and starts fighting. Sam OTOH made massive life changes and we don’t see what led to them at all. More Purgatory would probably be exciting. Sam after Dean disappeared would be explanation and it is an explanation that I really need to see.
yes to all of that….very eloquently put…thank you 🙂
i posted this on another thread but i thought i can share it here as well. 😉
i will admit that the first half of this season has been a bit of a disappointment to me. i will admit that i don’t like feeling this way. i’m tired of being angry at dean and i’m tired of being confused in regards to sam and amelia. which is a puzzle in and of itself.
so i got to thinking, which is what i do to find the silver lining in the gray cloud, and i got to thinking about perception again. then i came to this conclusion and it got me feeling a little better. and i thought if i can feel a bit better, then maybe some others can feel better too. so here goes:
i was considering sam’s fbs. not one of sam’s fbs illustrated that he was in love with this girl. they pretty much just explained, at least to me, why he chose her. this is what i got from his memories.
1. amelia is a female version of dean.
2. amelia and sam shared the same story.
3. he’s not in love with her. he’s in love with normal and safe. amelia is just a representation of normal and safe. imo, that’s how he percieves her. because there hasn’t been a single moment of love shared between these two people. sam said he didn’t want to give this up…he never said anything about not wanting to give her up.
it’s my opinion that amelia, whether real or all in his head, equals safe and normal. sam’s story has nothing to do with love. it has everything to do with escape. in essence when dean died, sam broke, much like i believe dean broke as well in purgatory.
even if the cw description of the next eppy is correct and sam has to choose between hunting with dean or being with amelia(spoiler)
in reality, for me, basically his choice is actually this:
stay with ameila (who is dean in a skirt) and live safe and normal.
stay with the real dean and hunt.
i really believe now that for sam, amelia and dean are the same, it’s just the lifestyle he has to choose.
i’m not saying sam believes amelia is dean in actual body. i’m saying amelia is a female version of dean, so being with her is like being with his brother, only with her, he’s safe and he feels normal.
it’s all based on his perception. the question for sam will be, does he want the real dean, or the fake one. i think we all know that sam will always choose the real deal over imitation….but i just think that this time, we as the audience are meant to see that it was a bit of a tough call for sam. kind of reminds me of avsc when sam was adverse to having xmas because he knew it was dean’s last, but in the end he gave dean the xmas he wanted so badly. sam always craved safe and normal, since he was a kid….but inevitably choosing dean over what he’s always wanted just shows how much sam really does love and need his brother.
i could read dean the same way. his perception of what he deems as loyal. i think dean is living in a fantasy world right now. he honestly believes benny is the only one who hasn’t let him down. i feel that this is something he needs to believe because dean went against every instinct in his bones and accepted a monster’s friendship in order to survive purgatory. dean, to this day, can’t bring himself to admit that he’s being shined. if you really think about it, dean broke in purgatory much like he broke in hell. in hell dean broke when he tortured his first soul. in purgatory he broke when he befriended a monster. we all know from canon that dean doesn’t want to be alone.
i believe all his displaced anger at sam along with dean not telling the truth about benny, is keeping sam at a distance emotionally. i believe if sam and dean actually talk, then sam will ask dean all the questions regarding benny that dean should’ve asked but didn’t. sam will ,in essence, shatter dean’s perception about benny, that perception being that he’s really a nice guy after all. :blink: when sam starts asking the questions like why did benny pick dean in the first place, how did he know about the loophole, who are “they”? it’s dean who’s going to have to hear the answers and i don’t think he’s going to like what he hears. dean is going to get let down by benny in a big way, of that i am sure in my soul, and i think deep down he knows it, he just doesn’t want to admit.
so as i now look at it:
dean’s perception this season is that of illusion.
sam’s perception this season is of escape.
but only sam and dean together can shatter ea. one of these perceptions and make ea. other see the truth because they are ea. others touchstones. the truth being that sam and dean love and need ea. other, plain and simple. they are family and together is where they belong. this means that they will make mistakes with ea. other, they may let ea. other down, they will face danger together, they will fight evil together.. they are and always will be brothers together…the good with the bad, the happy with the sad. 😉
looking at show from this perspective has literally put a smile on this girls face. and i like smiling again. so i’m sticking with it. 😉
I like this comment. It doesn’t make either brother the villian. It would be great if they could shatter each others perceptions and see how much they do love and need each other. They ARE each others touchstones IMO. Benny will probably let Dean down and I agree Dean knows this and is steeled to do what is necessary if that happens. Benny will, even if he doesn’t want to, surely give in to his urges. He has been struggling already.”The good with the bad, the happy with the sad”. Love that!!
@Ginger
I’m going to move this to here because it is off the topic. It doesn’t quite belong in this thread as it’s not bitterness, but it probably doesn’t belong in any thread. I’ll be quoting your post, as the post was not originally put into this thread.
[quote]I don’t know if you expect an answer or not, because I am sensing some hostility, or sarcasm, in your post.[/quote] First things first, there was no hostility or sarcasm in my post. I asked a question. You choose to answer it. I didn’t reply to your post therefore I did not even ask it of you. I used your quote because it was applicable and it was in the comments of the article being replied to, not because I expected you to answer it. I said ‘Could someone….’. I did not say ‘Ginger, could you…..’.
Therefore, with all due respect, your labeling of my post in such a way is on you, and I’m not sure what made you decide to do so. However, should you decide to reply to an open question in one of my posts in the future it would be great if it could be without the unfounded allegations. Thanks.
[quote]I see Sam as thinking of himself, once again, as a victim, and in doing so, he is not seeing how much distrust and distance there is between he and Dean. From Dean’s response to Benny’s, “You have Sam,” and the burned phone, I think Dean does realize the distance. [/quote] I don’t think Sam sees himself as a victim, and he is now well aware of the mistrust between them. What is there to feel victim about here? He made a [i]choice[/i] to go back hunting, for a specific purpose. He’s made it abundantly clear that once the gates of hell are closed then he’s out. He hasn’t pulled any ‘Woe is me’. There [i]is[/i] distance between Sam and Dean but it is the fault of [i]both[/i] Sam and Dean.
[quote]That notwithstanding, Sam has been unexplainably angry at Dean since the premiere. Instead of getting pissed about the snide remarks, he could be questioning himself as to why Dean would find the need to prepare a burn phone in advance and just how much that speaks to the trust that is no longer between the brothers. That’s what I would expect a ‘smart’ Sam to do, a Sam that is thinking outside of himself.[/quote] Sam hasn’t been angry with Dean since the premiere. He’s been exasperated with him but no more or less than he has been since season one. The first time Sam got angry with Dean was in 8.05, when Dean inexplicably took off. He’s angry with him now, but he wasn’t earlier on in the season.
Sam didn’t even know about the burned phone until the last 90 seconds of 8.09 so when do you think he should have questioned the need for it?
Add to that, if Dean doesn’t trust Sam then what role does Dean play in that? Dean said he prepared the burn phone in advance, what had Sam done at that early stage to warrant Dean’s mistrust? I imagine the mistrust (this season at least) stems from the ‘You didn’t look for me scenario’. However, hypothetical situation; if Sam got Dean out of Purgatory by means of making a deal with an angel or demon, would Dean have reason to trust him then? Does Dean not trust Sam because Sam doesn’t trust him on Benny? If that’s the case, what will make him trust Sam? Should he just follow all Dean’s decisions, regardless of whether or not he agrees with them or wholeheartedly trust Benny just because Dean does?
The presence of Benny had already drawn Dean into a very dangerous situation at that stage. Sam has never even spoken to Benny. Perhaps if he could speak to him, get a feel for him, then he might, but trusting Benny blindly, and solely on the word a guy who says that he’s different, and has been acting different since Purgatory, would be crazy.
[quote]Sam showed more empathy for the motel owner’s son and more joy in Cas’ return than anything I saw related to Dean. He also showed complete contempt for Dean in hiring an unhinged hunter to trail Benny (for no given justifiable reason — remember Lenore and her nest, which Sam knew for less than an hour, and the emotion-driven Kate from Bitten who they let go without a minder), allowed said unhinged hunter to coldcock Dean, believed the unhinged hunter over Dean and then chose him over Dean until he abandoned him for his own personal reasons.
[/quote] All Sam did re Castiels return was sit opposite him and say ‘I can’t believe it, you’re actually here.’ There was no hug, nothing. I’m sure he glad that he was back, but more so than he was with Dean? Not to me. With the Sam and Dean reunion, Sam would already have been somewhat numb because of the Amelia situation so the the surprise and shock at seeing Dean, added with being flattened, soaked, salted and slashed would have tempered the initial reaction of delight but for me, Sam was definitely glad to see Dean.
In relation to Lenore, there were no human kills in the area where Lenore and her vampire pack were living; just cattle kills. The Winchesters had already killed some of their pack and they did not retaliate. Lenore, even while being tortured, still managed to say no to human blood. Sam and Dean saw this, they both believed she should be trusted and they acted accordingly. (And in this situation, Dean didn’t agree with it based on Sam’s word. He saw Lenore refuse the blood. And in that scene, did Gordon say that he knew Lenore and her nest were not killing humans?)
In relation to Kate, I believe she should have been killed. A new werewolf that had already tasted flesh? Yeah, I’m sure she managed to live clean!
I also don’t feel that Sam showed contempt for Dean. He showed wariness of Benny and doesn’t believe that Dean would do the deed if the need arose. Dean as much as confirmed that for him “If Benny slips up and some other hunter turns his lights out then so be itâ€. Martin rang Sam looking to get back in the game. I don’t think Sam could have sent him after a wendigo or invited him into the Impala to hunt with them. He asked him to keep an eye on Benny. He didn’t ask him to kill him. Should he have ignored a vampire hanging lose just because his brother believed he was different? Add to that, when Benny was living in the area there were vampire kills, so there is a very good chance that Sam was right in not trusting Benny.
Sam did not ‘allow’ Martin to coldcock Dean; he was just as surprised as Dean was. I think he was turning away from them when Martin struck Dean. He was also well pissed with Martin for doing so. However, should Sam have stayed with Dean while there was the possibility that Benny was off killing someone else? Sam did what he felt he had to do in order to save lives (hence the handcuffing). Dean did what he felt he had to do in order to save either Sam or Dean’s life (hence the phone). (Though there is a third option. Sam could have found Benny, listened to him and, whether right or wrong, believed him). They [i]both[/i] did what they had to do in order to get the job that they needed to do; done.
In relation to Martin being unhinged, what evidence is there of that? Yeah, he was jumpy but he’s a hunter, and a hunter fresh back in the game. However, in relation to his actions with Elizabeth, while it was a lowlife thing to do, if it was proven that Benny was the killer, would we be looking it as a heinous thing or as a necessary thing? From Martin’s point of view, Benny was back on the road, free to set up camp wherever he wanted, and kill whomever he wanted, and he’d be hard to track down again. Would Martin have been justified in wounding and traumatising a person if it saved multiple lives?
Hunters have pushed the boundaries of what we would call acceptable in order to get the results for a long, long time. Martin did exactly the same thing as Tim and Reggie did in [i]Free to Be You and Me[/i]. They used Lindsey to get to Sam. Sam and Dean did the same thing in ‘[i]Something Wicked[/i]’ where they used Michael to get the striga. (I’m aware he consented but they still used a civilian to do what they needed to do.) Are they all unhinged?
And finally, part of the reason Sam went with Martin was because he believed that Benny was too close to it but said unhinged hunter had a believable story. He saw Benny turn down a path, heard screams, and came across a fresh vampire kill. The victim was someone who had been eyeing up Benny’s great granddaughter earlier in the day. When Dean came across Benny he had the blood of the second victim on his hands. Dean came back from Benny’s with nothing more than the word of a vampire (who was facing a death sentence) that he didn’t do it. Dean didn’t give, or get, any proof of Benny’s innocence.
And Sam’s ‘personal’ reasons were that he believed Amelia was in danger, not for something pithy.
[quote]The biggest thing for me, though, is that Sam gossiped to the unhinged hunter about Dean’s Purgatory experience. Martin couldn’t have known anything about it, except for Sam telling him. Since when do the Winchesters rattle their mouths about each other to other hunters or civilians? This, to me, puts Dean in big danger with other hunters — remember Roy and Walt and the hunters that came after Sam in Free to Be You and Me. I don’t think the Show will go there again, but the implications for gossiping are show canon.[/quote]
There is zero evidence to support that theory. On the contrary, Martin was surprised to learn that Dean even knew Benny (“The Benny you know? Sam, what? Why do I get the distinct impression that your brother is vouching for a vampire.â€) Dean was actually the one who told Martin that he had history with Benny so there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Sam told Martin about Dean’s relationship with Benny or his time in Purgatory.
[quote]And the thing about this friendship that I don’t think Sam understands is that if it all goes South, if Benny breaks that trust by feeding on humans, it will become a brutal death match between Benny and Dean. Dean knows that, and so does Benny.[/quote]
Apart from the fact that there’s a chance that this potential deathmatch would not involve Benny and Dean (but some other hunter) I gotta say, I find this to be a strange interpretation of what friendship should be and if this [i]is[/i] how Dean sees friendship now then Sam (and Benny, Castiel and Garth) should just head for the hills and never look back.
Are you really saying that if Benny breaks Dean’s trust then one of them (presumably Benny as Dean is a lead) will be killed by the other?? No second chances, no trying to understand, no empathy, no looking for reasons; just one strike and you’re dead? Who decides when that trust is broken, and who decided what that trust entails? If Benny kills but doesn’t feed then has he broken Dean’s trust? What if he breaks into a hospital and steals blood that would have been used in a transfusion to save someone’s life? What if he kills someone who is attacking him and feeds because it will save him from going looking for blood later on?
What happens if [i]Dean[/i] breaks someone’s trust, will that go to a deathmatch as well?
Ginger, I don’t think that Dean shares that definition of friendshihp. Benny [i]did[/i]’ mess up’, he did kill. However, he had a reason for doing so. ([i]Everyone[/i] has a reason for doing what they do.) It’s also quite possible that he fed from Martin. However, it didn’t turn into a deathmatch. On the contrary, Dean defended Benny to Sam and said that Martin ‘had it coming’.
i think your post was wonderful mr. enchanter….i really respect what you had to say and i agree.
i happen to think benny has been lying to dean from the start. i think martin was dead on about benny. it’s my belief that benny has been using dean to help him kill specific vamps benny seems to know by name.
i think the story about the girl being his great grandaughter was a load of crap. a sob story so dean wouldn’t be suspicious. i noticed that the killings of humans didn’t start until dean told benny that sam put a tail on him. it’s my opinion that benny killed those two people to frame desmond. i think benny moved back to his hometown because he heard desmond was nesting there and was there to kill him. only martin kind of spoiled that plan so benny had to alter it. he killed those humans and then told dean he was being framed. well, sorry but i never saw desmond kill anyone, so it’s just as likely benny actually did the killing.
benny let the girl live so she can tell dean what martin did. i think in actuality, benny used the girl, not martin. martin was just a nuisance benny wanted to get rid of.
his plan obviously worked, because dean bought it hook line and sinker.
only sam ain’t buying it and i think sam is right on the money.
jmo of course…benny has let dean down, dean just can’t bring himself to see it yet.
Hi nappi!
Your scenario would actually save this season for me. People said it would be a redo if Benny turns out to be another Ruby to the brothers (with a different background of course because …like so much people already stated, here and even Jensen himself) Dean’s biggest trait is loyality. Of course he has a different history and a different score and I don’t think Benny wants to release Lucifer again…hopefully. So Dean gave his loyality to Benny… not seeing straight because of his history in purgatory.
I think its not a redo because it would be about Dean trusting someone over his own brother and falling deeply on his nose. I may think that this is the only way…the only…to open dean’s eyes and to make Dean stop with his attitude towards Sam.
It wouldn’t be a redo because this time its Dean who screwed their trust and believed in someone else to be a better brother for him than Sam. I would be interested to see how Sam reacts to this scenario.
Right now I see more that JC created a not natural rift between Sam and Dean. I can’t follow the brothers personal traits anymore and I am hugely disappointed in their reactions to each other. For me the biggest rift was created in S4 and it ended with Swan Song when Sam was gone. Nobody from the writers, producers dare to delve really into that relationship and nobody is really able to show their brotherly relationship like Eric Kripke could. Sadly the writers cling to Dean’s relationships with others and create this unnatural feeling drama again …why… I don’t know.
So to ease out their inbalance, this would be for me the only acceptable scenario, Benny is letting Dean hugely down, and their has to be a dangerous scenario, something will happen, something bad, and it will change Dean’s perception of things (the cult word here)
Maybe…maybe what JC said that Dean does something bad, was this, how he views Sam and how he treats him. Problem is everytime the main POV on Dean for me!
Also Benny is liked by viewers (like Castiel once was), and he got incredible sympathetic insight, although they didn’t show all of Bennys scenes, some was not showed so it could still happen what you desribed.
For me it wouldn’t be a redo because this is about Dean and it would be actually a master plan from JC and it would save this season for me!!!
[quote]Also Benny is liked by viewers (like Castiel once was), and he got incredible sympathetic insight, although they didn’t show all of Bennys scenes, some was not showed so it could still happen what you desribed. [/quote]
This is the one thing that worries me. The show has the tendency to embrace male characters who are well liked. Bobby wasn’t supposed to be long term, neither was Castiel. OTOH, Ellen was quite popular and the show (or rather the CW) thought she was too old to be sexy and dropped her.
So my concern is Benny was supposed to be Dean’s lesson about trusting someone over his brother, but they may switch and keep him around and good. Why not throw Sam under the bus one more time by making Benny the better brother and Sam the schlump who didn’t even look for Dean?
[quote][quote]Also Benny is liked by viewers (like Castiel once was), and he got incredible sympathetic insight, although they didn’t show all of Bennys scenes, some was not showed so it could still happen what you desribed. [/quote]
This is the one thing that worries me. The show has the tendency to embrace male characters who are well liked. Bobby wasn’t supposed to be long term, neither was Castiel. OTOH, Ellen was quite popular and the show (or rather the CW) thought she was too old to be sexy and dropped her.
So my concern is Benny was supposed to be Dean’s lesson about trusting someone over his brother, but they may switch and keep him around and good. Why not throw Sam under the bus one more time by making Benny the better brother and Sam the schlump who didn’t even look for Dean?[/quote]
Percy what does “schlump” mean? Like a jerk?
Ellen was a great addition! I think it was wrong to kill her off. If this show is really about family they need to keep older people involved to the Winchesters! Female or male….doesn’t matter to me!
I want to add the fact that those male characters are also tied pretty much to Dean and I would like for Sam a male friend outside of the brothers interaction. It actually is needed IMO because Sam gets almost no emotional insight with Dean, yeah I know its the same old same old problem here! If the show would actually show us why Sam can’t connect to people anymore (because of his hell cage memories and damaged soul) I would know and it would be more satisfying for me! I could live with that, although it would also mean that Dean would have to interact with his sibling more onscreen about personal issues and I am unsure this will ever happen again!
I probably should have typed shulb, which is basically a pathetic jerk. And yes, I wish the show would give Sam a male friend. Men stick around in the Supernatural universe and become treasured friends, women not so much. I often wonder what would have happened if Ruby had been Reuben and played by Misha and Castiel had been female. Would Cas have become so loved? Would Reuben have been lying about remembering human, or would Reuben have really been a good demon?
I miss Ellen. She added a lot to the show.
I miss Ellen also. I always liked how she could put Dean in his place and that she intimidated him a little.
I hadn’t heard that the CW thought she was too old to be sexy. Is that a rumor or was it said in an article or interview? Just curious.
It’s been a while, but I’m pretty sure Samantha Ferris posted the information on her blog when she was told that she was being written out. There was quite a fuss in fandom at the time.
Thanks and for the record, that stinks!! She (and Jo) were awesome. I agree with Bamboo24, their death scene was one of the most gut wrenching on the series.
I’m going to jump in here quick and then jump out. God, I miss Ellen, too! I was [b]horrified [/b]when she died in S5. That episode is the ONLY one that makes me bawl like a baby, every single time. The actresses who play Ellen and Jo rocked the socks off of every one of their scenes. I don’t understand why they killed off Ellen either. Such a shame. She was a strong character who held her own and didn’t run into the same problems as other female characters on the show because she was too old (though certainly no less sexy!) to be a love interest.
Yes Percy I really don’t care if this friend of Sam would be older or younger, but someone who is emphatic, compassionate and cares for Sam, respects him, someone Sam could talk to and is understood, someone who works maybe in the bibliothec of the university (because book worm Sam), or a psychic, medium (about the powers the connection) or a doctor (where Sam was for his damaged psyche) or someone who also hunts because of a tragical death in family and isn’t involved in a kind of community where Sam Winchester isn’t so nicely seen because of the apocalypse!
But when I really think of it … Sam has a history he can barely share with someone without people thinking “is this guy crazy?”
As much as I would love Sam to have a character who isnt either playing him or is poorly written and who,s dead husbands dont return and are married but for me the truth is the show is not geared for Sam and hasnt been for some time. How Benny has been written and Amelia has been written has been polar opposite,s and Benny gets embraced by the fandom in a snap of a finger .
Sam,s history ? I am not really sure how much that matters now and even if it did how much Jeremy Carver would use it in Sam,s characterization as he seems to not count it has important . What we will get is Sam back in hunting at some point stuck to that passenger sit in that car and no futher forward with Sam than we have been for a long time.
[quote]As much as I would love Sam to have a character who isnt either playing him or is poorly written and who,s dead husbands dont return and are married but for me the truth is the show is not geared for Sam and hasnt been for some time. How Benny has been written and Amelia has been written has been polar opposite,s and Benny gets embraced by the fandom in a snap of a finger .
Sam,s history ? I am not really sure how much that matters now and even if it did how much Jeremy Carver would use it in Sam,s characterization as he seems to not count it has important . What we will get is Sam back in hunting at some point stuck to that passenger sit in that car and no futher forward with Sam than we have been for a long time.[/quote]
Exactly what I see happening, too. Sam has not had a voice on the show since season 3 and it doesn’t appear that he will in season 8. Since people are the sum of all their experiences and JC is ignoring pretty much everything that has happened to Sam, I dont see that ever changing.
There is so much that could have been done with the character but none of the writers or showrunners seem interested in doing so.
This is sadly true. I don’t understand why the writers don’t write for Sam. There is a wealth of material there. Explore what living safe and normal means to him. Deal with what happened in the Cage and use it to finally look at Dean’s Hell memories or Purgatory memories if they don’t feel just Sam on his own is enough. Heck, having Sam reflect on what it was like being soulless could be interesting. Yes, he did bad things, but it had to be liberating as well to no be weighed down with all the do’s and don’ts of his life.
The Amelia story has been underwritten, but it could have had heft if they had allowed Sam to talk to Amelia about what watching everyone he ever loved die meant to him.
I really hate that we have had more exploration of Benny and Cas than we have had of Sam this season. It frustrates me to no end.
[quote]The Amelia story has been underwritten, but it could have had heft if they had allowed Sam to talk to Amelia about what watching everyone he ever loved die meant to him.[/quote]
Goodness, [i]yes[/i]. One of the oddest things about this season is how few substantial lines Sam has, even in his own flashbacks. If the flashbacks are not there to shed light on his character, what the hell are they for?
[quote][quote]The Amelia story has been underwritten, but it could have had heft if they had allowed Sam to talk to Amelia about what watching everyone he ever loved die meant to him.[/quote]
Goodness, [i]yes[/i]. One of the oddest things about this season is how few substantial lines Sam has, even in his own flashbacks. If the flashbacks are not there to shed light on his character, what the hell are they for?[/quote]
My guess. To cause a rift between Sam and Dean. For whatever reason JC has decided to do this. No idea why he thinks this is interesting to watch. It most certainly has not been for most of the viewers. IMO it’s just divided the fandom again for no useful purpose that I can see. My disappointment in Carver knows no bounds. I’m not sure that anything he may do to repair that bond between the brothers will be enough for me to be able to enjoy SPN again. I’m too bitter.
In my opinion, one of the main problems here is that Amelia is female.
SPN has never done well with long term love interests for the boys.
Madison was great, I loved her, but hey, she was supposed to die.
Lisa was extremely boring and bland, though she had some great things to say. Might have been the actress .. dunno…
BUT the problem is also the reception of female love interests for the boys by the fandom.
Let´s be honest here: many many fans are insanely jealous of the women who get to share Sam or Dean´s life for a while.
On the other hand, male characters, who are friends are watched with interest and welcomed with open arms 🙁
Would Amelia have been a guy, Sam crashed with, lets say a returning soldier with a love for old cars, who helped him fix the Impala… reaction might have been the polar opposide.
Sometimes thats the case although I am not bothered wether the boys have a quote ‘ love’ interest although wether that sort of relationship should be left to the final season rather than this one is another question . I think it is how that character is introduced and Amelia was not introduced very well and the relationship not engaging which is what was needed .
And I adore Sam but even I have struggled with his connection to Amelia.
I liked how she was introduced.
She and Sam both were acting so far outside the normal “polite” norm.. it just fit.
He was scared and jittery and freaked and all kinds of not ok, while she just didn´t bother with politeness or patience..
But at some point, it just lost steam and became indrecibly boring -.-
She was an interesting character in the beginning and she became a doormat.
Sadly this is as common an occurence on TV as it is in writing and now I want to launch a rant about the depiction of female characters in modern pop culture 😕
I found the way she was introduced unrealistic , no vet that is supposed to be a professional would act that way let alone berate a man who had just brought in a injured dog that wasnt even his .
And frankly Sam is now involved with a married woman there isnt just her that is part of this now.
I hate the implication that if a female character us not well-received, it’s because the female viewers are “jealous” and want Sam and Dean to themselves. Last I checked, Sam and Dean were [i]fictional[/i] characters that no one could ever date. Are women supposed to be irrational and deluded or something?
There are several rational reasons people disliked Bela, Ruby, Lisa, or Amelia.
Bela was a rotten person with no soul, and the boys did not behave like themselves in her presence. For instance, after all the crap she pulled, why would Dean ever disclose his location to her? How in the world did she steal that hand from Dean when he put it in his inside jacket pocket? She shot Sam, and tried to murder the boys on several occasions. How would this endear her to the audience? Plus, the boys are heroic, good guys. She was a bottom feeder with no heart. I was never surprised that she wasn’t well-received.
I loved KC’s Ruby so I had no problem with Ruby in the third season. GP’s Ruby was just bad. Total departure from KC’s portrayal and not in a good or believable way, IMO. Plus, I, personally, never believed Sam would ever hang with Ruby again after S3 no matter how sad and depressed he was so I could never buy into the Sam/Ruby relationship in S4.
Kripke’s desire to suddenly make Lisa the girl of Dean’s dreams was sudden and unbelievable to me. I never bought into their relationship and don’t feel she was presented well in S6. she was like a Stepford wife in some instances and then nagging in others. Why was Dean hiding that he was hunting something in EOMS? She knew he was a hunter when she invited him – a virtual stranger – into her home. Why would he have to apologize for that? I had many problems with Lisa’s crappy characterization. I think Dean is quite attractive but she just allowed him to move into her home. She barely knew him. Then, she’s okay with him coming and going as he pleases. She had just seemingly uprooted her life for him but then he leaves. She was way too accommodating. She was “unreal” to me. I’m not sure why they forced Dean into that relationship.
Amelia. I feel I’ve stated my problems with her but she’s just not likable to me. I don’t hate Amelia but I don’t care about her either. Her relationship with Sam has been sorely under-developed, IMO. It doesn’t help that she and JP have ZERO chemistry with each other. I get NOTHING from their few, brief scenes.
Anyway, I don’t think women have a problem with female characters because we’re jealous. People loved Pamela, Ellen, Missouri, and Jodi. The writing has not been good, IMO, for female characters who are meant to be longterm love interests. That’s why S3 Ruby worked, IMO, and S4’s version didn’t. That’s why Lisa was fine in S3 but then “off” in S6.
These writers aren’t capable of longterm romance. JC isn’t any better than Sera or Eric.
[quote]I hate the implication that if a female character us not well-received, it’s because the female viewers are “jealous” and want Sam and Dean to themselves. Last I checked, Sam and Dean were [i]fictional[/i] characters that no one could ever date. Are women supposed to be irrational and deluded or something?
There are several rational reasons people disliked Bela, Ruby, Lisa, or Amelia.
Bela was a rotten person with no soul, and the boys did not behave like themselves in her presence. For instance, after all the crap she pulled, why would Dean ever disclose his location to her? How in the world did she steal that hand from Dean when he put it in his inside jacket pocket? She shot Sam, and tried to murder the boys on several occasions. How would this endear her to the audience? Plus, the boys are heroic, good guys. She was a bottom feeder with no heart. I was never surprised that she wasn’t well-received.
I loved KC’s Ruby so I had no problem with Ruby in the third season. GP’s Ruby was just bad. Total departure from KC’s portrayal and not in a good or believable way, IMO. Plus, I, personally, never believed Sam would ever hang with Ruby again after S3 no matter how sad and depressed he was so I could never buy into the Sam/Ruby relationship in S4.
Kripke’s desire to suddenly make Lisa the girl of Dean’s dreams was sudden and unbelievable to me. I never bought into their relationship and don’t feel she was presented well in S6. she was like a Stepford wife in some instances and then nagging in others. Why was Dean hiding that he was hunting something in EOMS? She knew he was a hunter when she invited him – a virtual stranger – into her home. Why would he have to apologize for that? I had many problems with Lisa’s crappy characterization. I think Dean is quite attractive but she just allowed him to move into her home. She barely knew him. Then, she’s okay with him coming and going as he pleases. She had just seemingly uprooted her life for him but then he leaves. She was way too accommodating. She was “unreal” to me. I’m not sure why they forced Dean into that relationship.
Amelia. I feel I’ve stated my problems with her but she’s just not likable to me. I don’t hate Amelia but I don’t care about her either. Her relationship with Sam has been sorely under-developed, IMO. It doesn’t help that she and JP have ZERO chemistry with each other. I get NOTHING from their few, brief scenes.
Anyway, I don’t think women have a problem with female characters because we’re jealous. People loved Pamela, Ellen, Missouri, and Jodi. The writing has not been good, IMO, for female characters who are meant to be longterm love interests. That’s why S3 Ruby worked, IMO, and S4’s version didn’t. That’s why Lisa was fine in S3 but then “off” in S6.
These writers aren’t capable of longterm romance. JC isn’t any better than Sera or Eric.[/quote]
You’re right in your assessment. Those are exactly the reasons I didn’t like Bela or Lisa or Amelia. Had nothing to do with them being female.
And, boy did you hit the nail on the head with your last sentence.
So why did they go there? Makes no sense. They should have stayed with the original concept of the show, ie: hunting monsters and helping humans. IMO Carver should have returned the show to that instead of more angel crap. It was boring in the past and will be in the future. Each year my interest in SPN has decreased since they were brought on board. I’m contemplating whether I want to continue to watch. Especially given they way the brothers are being written.
Its odd because I have the reverse opinion of the 2 Rubys’. I hated Katie Cassidys bratty Gossip Girl demon. And it irks me to no end because I see her act marvelously in other things. Gen’s Ruby was mature and adult. Her manipulations felt organic while Katie’s felt contrived. Sam would never have fell for Katie;s Ruby’s manipulations.
Now…..Absolutely yes to what you said about Bella. And To this day I wish Lauren Cohn had played Ruby like she was origianlly supposed to. She really had the gravitas and subtly that neither Katie or gen had for such an important charector.
My honest opinion is that the only way Sam would have ever entertained hanging around a demon or taking a demon’s advice was in S3 when Dean’s life was at stake. I don’t think Ruby had to be nice or put on a show for Sam in S3 b/c she had something he needed – a way to save Dean. I could see Sam “damning” himself to save Dean. The whole idea of Ruby made more sense to me in S3 than S4. I just could never wrap my mind around Sam associating w/Ruby again after she was exposed as a liar and manipulator in S3. So, for me, Ruby’s presence in S4 didn’t make much sense.
[quote]I hate the implication that if a female character us not well-received, it’s because the female viewers are “jealous” [/quote]
I agree. Although, I haven’t hated any of the women characters on SPN, I never particularly cared for Bella. I just never found LC very engaging in the role.(Though her Maggie on Walking Dead is one of 2 women characters I actually like on that show) Now my sister HATES Bella, but it has everything with her accent. She has a thing with contrived voices, she can’t watch HoaP either because she hates Alastair’s voice. She’s weird sure. But lumping all women together under some jealous umbrella is insulting.
I think part of the problem, for me, is they really don’t introduce women all that well on SPN in seasons 1 and 2, especially if they could be a possible love interest.
Jo, who I did come to really like, might as well had a flashing neon sign that said love interest. While Ellen had one that said mother figure. So the women are reduce to stereotypes. And the show doesn’t feel organic. But she was fantastic in BUaBS, unfortunately that was the last time we saw her until she died.
I liked both incarnations of Ruby. The change in style seemed very realistic to me. The first Ruby tried to appeal to the warrior side of Sam. Make him in take his role by appealing to that rational, logical side of Sam. She was very in-your-face and short on sympathy. But Dean was always there to counter act the effects of her arguments. So she tried to manipulate Dean, but that didn’t work either.
After Dean died, I think she tried that same approach again with that first woman she was riding, but Sam was haven’t any of it. So she came back in a guilt-free version and changed her tactics. Sam was lost and alone, so she was softer, supportive and seductive. Comforting him, even as she told him how amazing he was, how powerful. How he could save the world and revenge Dean.
Kick ass character. Seriously one of my favorites. In a love to hate kind of way. But a great character and NOT one dimensional, like so many women of the first couple seasons.
I thought Lisa was fine. I always saw her as a port in the storm though. Someone who fit the life Dean craved with a kid who could have been his son. I’m sure he came to love her, but as a viewer I wasn’t really invested in their relationship.
Amelia- I don’t hate her, though she is cranky and unappealing, but the biggest problem is that I find their relationship dull as dirt and I’m really hoping that their was some sort of supernatural manipulation to spice things up.
[quote]I hate the implication that if a female character us not well-received, it’s because the female viewers are “jealous” and want Sam and Dean to themselves. Last I checked, Sam and Dean were [i]fictional[/i] characters that no one could ever date. Are women supposed to be irrational and deluded or something?
There are several rational reasons people disliked Bela, Ruby, Lisa, or Amelia.
Bela was a rotten person with no soul, and the boys did not behave like themselves in her presence. For instance, after all the crap she pulled, why would Dean ever disclose his location to her? How in the world did she steal that hand from Dean when he put it in his inside jacket pocket? She shot Sam, and tried to murder the boys on several occasions. How would this endear her to the audience? Plus, the boys are heroic, good guys. She was a bottom feeder with no heart. I was never surprised that she wasn’t well-received.
I loved KC’s Ruby so I had no problem with Ruby in the third season. GP’s Ruby was just bad. Total departure from KC’s portrayal and not in a good or believable way, IMO. Plus, I, personally, never believed Sam would ever hang with Ruby again after S3 no matter how sad and depressed he was so I could never buy into the Sam/Ruby relationship in S4.
Kripke’s desire to suddenly make Lisa the girl of Dean’s dreams was sudden and unbelievable to me. I never bought into their relationship and don’t feel she was presented well in S6. she was like a Stepford wife in some instances and then nagging in others. Why was Dean hiding that he was hunting something in EOMS? She knew he was a hunter when she invited him – a virtual stranger – into her home. Why would he have to apologize for that? I had many problems with Lisa’s crappy characterization. I think Dean is quite attractive but she just allowed him to move into her home. She barely knew him. Then, she’s okay with him coming and going as he pleases. She had just seemingly uprooted her life for him but then he leaves. She was way too accommodating. She was “unreal” to me. I’m not sure why they forced Dean into that relationship.
Amelia. I feel I’ve stated my problems with her but she’s just not likable to me. I don’t hate Amelia but I don’t care about her either. Her relationship with Sam has been sorely under-developed, IMO. It doesn’t help that she and JP have ZERO chemistry with each other. I get NOTHING from their few, brief scenes.
Anyway, I don’t think women have a problem with female characters because we’re jealous. People loved Pamela, Ellen, Missouri, and Jodi. The writing has not been good, IMO, for female characters who are meant to be longterm love interests. That’s why S3 Ruby worked, IMO, and S4’s version didn’t. That’s why Lisa was fine in S3 but then “off” in S6.
These writers aren’t capable of longterm romance. JC isn’t any better than Sera or Eric.[/quote]
[b]Lala[/b], I couldn’t agree with you more in your analysis.
I’ve loved well-written female characters in Supernatural but the love-interest women are never well-written so I’ve never really liked them. Even Lisa, who was possibly the best attempt at some sort of love interest, was not very convincing in terms of her just falling out of the big plot-hole in the sky one day and being described as the love of Dean’s life.
An example of the inability to write convincing love-interestes is Jo: as soon as Jo was no longer Dean’s intended love-interest, the writers started making her a really interesting character and I was really upset when they killed her. The same thing applies to the character of Ruby – I thought S3 Ruby was so much better than S4 Ruby because she was complex and interesting. That all changed in S4 when she became a love interest (of sorts) and I was totally miffed by the change in characterisation and in the not so great portrayal by the actress.
To be honest, the main reason I don’t want long-term love interests for the Winchesters is because that sort of thing tends to absorb the writers and take over the focus of a show. I’m watching Supernatural for the brothers’ intense, dysfunctional relationship and the “hunting things and saving people” aspect and I don’t really want the focus going off those and onto Winchester girlfriends. I have no problems with the brothers having hook-ups or short-term flings, that doesn’t detract from the plots and it makes more sense given their Hunter lifestyle and their dysfunctional emotional lives.
Just watched the promo for 8X10 Torn and Frayed. Wasn’t one of Tran’s fingers meant to have been cut off by Crowley.
And Cas said, he might be able to heal this, if he had time to refill his Angel Mojo
Oh ok that must have been the Cas Crowley confrontation. I haven’t watched the full ep yet so thanks for filling me in Fluffy
it was toward the end, after they rescued Kevin.
Sam relayed the message to the Trans
Okay, think I maybe ready to add some actually real bitterness to this now. While I still hoping that there is some explanation of Sam’s storyline this season that makes it all work and come together, I’m starting to think regardless of any possible reveal-The Sam/Amelia storyline is going to suck balls HARD.
Which is a pity. Because I am really enjoying everything else about the season. Purgatory-kickass. Tablets-love them this year. Evil CIA Angels-Hell’s yeah. Love to hate Crowley-or possible just love him at times. Kevin great. Really like the mom. That’s the problem EVERYONE has a better storyline this year than Sam. Dean -survivor of Purgatory-fantastic. Cas- tortured soul being forced to do things abhorrent to him with no memory of them. (he bleed a freakin’ tear- so poignant and kinda cool). And Benny is completely sympathetic and likable. Samandriel was short-lived, but the sweetest most adorable angel ever.
While Sam has spent way to much time in a soap opera plot. I wouldn’t mind so much if we were getting info on Sam. Getting inside his head. But we’ve learned almost no new info about a character that has lived mostly in his head for the last 4 seasons. No, most of the time we spent learning about Amelia-the crankiest and most boring character ever on the show. But even if she and Sam had the most amazing relationship ever, I’m not really interested in getting that invested in it, because we KNOW it is not going to last. It’s the nature of the show. Although I suppose at least it could have been someone we hope he can reunite with at the end of the series. But I find her extremely unappealing, so not hoping that.
Perhaps it’s actually it deliberate and there is method to their madness, I pray there is, I have not completely lost hope. But it is difficult not to compare this to the Dean/Lisa storyline. Lisa was tough, but likable. She supported Dean and we saw her comfort him and fear for his safety. And I haven’t counted minutes but I think all of this was done with WAY less screen time. Plus we saw Dean in pain, drinking heavily, and in a amazing, brief montage saw his whole year pass and it was bittersweet and poignant. He was struggling to move on but having limited success. He was reminded of his brother every moment of everyday. All the secondary characters have had a closer relationship to Dean than Sam, so we’ve always had more insights into what was going on with him. But this from what we’ve seen has been completely squandered with the Sam/Amelia plot. We’ve learned of HER pain and heard HER story but nothing from Sam. I keep hoping this is deliberate but we need a payoff soon.
I wouldnt know what payoff we would get now?. I think they had no real appetite for Sam and Amelia there was no attempt to explore Sam and frankly it ended up languishing so badly in soap land that it was embarrassing to watch.
But unless they genuinely want to explore Sam then every sl they give him will be a dead end before it starts. Amelia was a poor attempt to give Sam some sort of ‘normal’ and human story while ignoring Sam’s history.
I really, really wanted to love this episode 811, but I just can’t. :'( Doesn’t mean I don’t like it, because I do but a couple of issues really got in the way of me enjoying it to the fullest. This is the first ep that I can recall where, upon watching for the very first time, I didn’t immediately re-watch it. I watched the latest Arrow ep instead and only watched LARP for a second time, quite a few hours later, hoping that my issues/resentments may have faded a bit… (They didn’t >:( ) Now that may have been because of Ben Browder (my 2nd fav actor after Jared) being on Arrow, but I’m pretty sure I would have watched something, ANYTHING, other than this SPN ep again…… and that makes me really, really sad. Haven’t ever felt this way about ANY SPN ep, not even Ghostfacers, Hammer of The Gods or Bitten (my bottom 3)
So, to my 2 main issues that I just can’t ignore anymore and they are just the breaking point with some longer-term issues that I’ve been having about the show for quite a while now.)
1/ I was really hyped for this ep way back late last year when Jared revealed at a con they were filming an ep taking place at a Ren Faire and that BOTH of them would be in costume. Hooray, I thought, finally we get to see Sam in something other than his normal hunting clothes or a suit. We’ve had eps where Dean has gotten to dress up in some really amazing outfits (the Western gear in Frontierland and the 40’s outfit in Time After Time are my favourites, complete with long, slow full body pans by a very loving camera) and I’ve really appreciated them and seeing how great Jensen looks. So, great I thought, finally Sam (& Jared) will get equal share of the spotlight in this regard.
Fast forward to this past week and spoiler clips and pics start showing up online and they are all of Dean in costume (and looking mighty damn fine, BTW) . They have me thinking… WOW, if I’m drooling this much over Dean then I’m going to need buckets when pics of Sam in costume appear.
I throw my previous rock-hard spoiler-phobia out the window and click on every single preview/pic or vid link in order to see how magnificent Sam is gonna look in the medieval garb. Finally a preview/promo clip is released that shows Sam in costume, all of about 5 seconds worth, enough for a couple of screencaps to be taken. Showing Sam/Jared in tight leather leggings, shirt & cape with his longish hair in a ponytail. ;D And hey, it’s still a lot less than all the pics we got of Dean, but for the most part I’m satisfied and, once again, I’m all hyped up for the ep, only to be majorly disappointed that what was in that last preview clip was pretty much ALL we get to see of Sam in costume. Right at the end of the ep in a couple of shots that probably lasted no longer than about 20 seconds. So after seeing Dean in costume for at least half the ep, all we get of Sam is 1 or 2 almost blink-and-you’ll-miss-’em- shots lasting less than a minute.
Now I get that as a result of giving up on being with Amelia and his dream of a normal/safe/happy life, Sam is majorly depressed and was clearly just focussing on the hunt aspect of the case as a way of dealing with things, they still could have had Sam in costume for a lot longer than the tiny little snippet we got at the end without removing/rewriting the really great last couple of scenes, Sam saying the fun will help both of them & the speech/battle charge.
As a result, I have gone back to my previous anti-spoiler stance as I can’t handle getting my hopes up by something I read or hear or see, only to have them smashed when the ep arrives and things don’t turn out the way I’d thought/hoped/prayed they would.
2/ My other issue (and this one goes back at least a few seasons– hope this is ok or is this thread only for season 8?) is that, once again, Dean is given a scene where he gets to discuss feelings/emotions/reasons why he did something (in this case, Dean and Charlie talking about the fake text he sent Sam at the end of 809). Sam very rarely gets to interact on such an emotional level with a secondary character like Dean has on multiple occassions (Gordon back in season 2’s Bloodlust, all the convos he’s had with Bobby, all the 1-on-1 scenes with Cas, heck Dean even has had more interaction with Meg than Sam has in the last few seasons. I’m still surprised that Meg possessing Sam back in season 2 — such a huge character moment/ plot point for Sam– has never even been mentioned in any Meg ep since– so it almost seems to me that Meg’s initial very strong connection to Sam (and Sam alone) has been totally erased from memory) The last one I can think of is Sam talking to Young John in season 5’s Song Remains The Same. I’d thought we were going to get one in 99 Problems btn Sam and Paul (the bartender) but that took place offscreen) Even in Season 6 and the re-introduction of Samuel Campbell as part of the SoulessSam focus storyline, Dean got to have way more in-depth conversations and interactions with Samuel, than Sam did. It seems like Dean has always got someone he can talk to/confide in whereas Sam seems only to have Dean and when the boys are at odds and not speaking, then Sam has no-one. And that I think is what makes me saddest most of all.
I think I’m almost at the point where if something happened and Jared was no longer able to be on the show, I don’t think I would continue watching, especially if it became the Dean & Cas show. I love Jensen and Dean, but I know in my heart, that I keep watching because of my absolute love for and obsession with Jared and Sam which no doubt accounts for my bias towards Sam.
I’m really hoping that something happens in the second half of this season that restores my faith that both actors & co-leads and both characters are equally important in the minds of the showrunner, writers etc (because I’m really not feeling that at the moment and haven’t for some time) and that we get some really good Sam-focussed eps like the many heavily Dean-centric eps we gotten in the past (What Is (s2), The Beginning (s4) & The End (s5)). Hell, giving Sam a friend that is not shared by Dean would be a good start. Will we ever get one where Dean/Jensen is only in 1 or 2 scene leaving Jared to carry the ep? I doubt it otherwise it would have happened by now. Maybe then I’ll be able to come back to this ep with a much more positive attitude and love it like I really want to.
But right now (and having spoiled myself a little for next week) all I can think is that I really, really hope that Dean doesn’t get all the interaction, and most of the scenes and dialogue with a new but very important up-coming character that in all respects does have an equal starting relationship with both brothers. I do know that I’m not going to get my hopes up again and maybe the episode will leave me pleasantly surprised and feeling the love once again.
I do still love SPN, I will always love SPN, I just don’t know if I like it all that much, Jared & Sam aside, right now.
I hear ya. I was slammed for this earlier, but I do agree that Sam could use some friends on the show. He doesn’t speak to Dean so he needs to speak to someone. Giving him a friend or letting him bond w/a guest star and/or recurring character could go a long way in giving us some insight into Sam.
The awful part about Amelia is she could have been that character for Sam, but none of the FBs focused on Sam. He mostly just sat around, listening to her feelings. I would have loved to hear from Sam how his world imploded. It would have been even better if we’d gotten some scenes of Sam immediately after Dean’s disappearance. Oh well.
Anyway, I do agree w/your 2nd point. And it’s not that I disagree w/your 1st point, but the costume thing has never been an issue for me. I know it bothers others though. My sister is a casual viewer, and she mentions it. Haha! To me, it seems “in character” for Sam to not get all dressed up.
[quote]The awful part about Amelia is she could have been that character for Sam, but none of the FBs focused on Sam. He mostly just sat around, listening to her feelings.[/quote]
I recommend reading Bardicvoice’s recent article, if you haven’t already. She has an excellent understanding of the Sam-Amelia relationship and may open you up to a different take on it.
I feel your pain on #2. IMO Sam has become a support character on a show in which he is supposedly one of the stars. Since s4 epi1 he’s had very little POV. I don’t know why the writers and showrunners don’t care to write for him but they obviously don’t.
Edlund only cares to write for Castiel and Singer thinks having the mytharc in the first 5 seasons is all Sam needs, a POV isn’t important. I have no idea what Carver thinks. If he thinks the fb’s were great then he apparently doesn’t care about Sam either beacause they were from Amelia’s POV and not Sam’s. He said he’s going to mature the boys this season but all he’s done was make them fight. For what purpose I haven’t a clue.
I personally know a few Sam fans who aren’t watching this season. They watched the first couple of epis and saw the direction Carver chose and decided they couldn’t handle it. I’m trying to make it to the end of s8 but not sure if I will.
I think the thing that has bothered me the most is the how wide the gap is between how the fandom views Dean,s behaviour compared to Sam,s. The disportionate and at times disturbing reaction to Sam not trusting Benny has been a example. Yet Dean’s behaviour towards Sam at times seemed accepted even justified or not seen at all.
I have had everything from loathsome to selfish and you could go on with Sam this season . Sam made Dean give up Benny and isnt that a awfully big sacrifice on Dean’s part when actually no it wasnt I accept it was a tough decision but not a ‘sacrifice’ and in all honesty Benny was never the issue this was never about Benny with Dean , this was about Dean getting what he wanted from day 1 Sam in hunting recommitted and riding by his side and yet I have been told I am supposed to feel sorry for Dean why? for getting what he craved all along.
The problem is and it comes back to is Sam pov , Sam being rounded out as a character by interacting and talking about Sam to others so we the audience do not have the room to interpret his actions in a negative way that it is crystal clear , how he feels , why he feels and how it will influence him going forward.
I am glad in a sense this week the boys did have some fun but it wasnt until the last minute and it was boring to see Sam walking around in that big overcoat I was thinking take it off lol.
I suppose I want to see what balance we get now moving forward within the brothers relationship if any at all.
[quote]I think the thing that has bothered me the most is how wide the gap between how the fandom views Dean’s behaviour compared to Sam’s. The disproportionate and at times disturbing reaction to Sam not trusting Benny has been an example. Yet Dean’s behaviour toward Sam at times seems acceptable even justified, or not seen at all.[/quote]
I am not sure where you are seeing this Sharon. Reading through the posts, there seems to be an equal amount of concern over Dean’s behaviour toward Sam too. I have read many posters who root for Dean and who found the infamous text a seriously harsh thing to do to his brother that he supposedly loves, and it certainly was. I cannot see where posters are ‘not seeing it at all’. I see ‘Dean’ posters who acknowledge that keeping Benny a secret was unfathomable, inexplicable and stupid. I for one think perhaps it was taking reprisals for Sam not looking for him (I am so going to get roasted for this).
I root for both boys equally, and watching Torn and Frayed, I applauded Sam when he called Dean on the devastating emotional consequences of the text, (I really don’t think that Dean had made the Jessica connection until that point, remember he was in purgatory where ‘the end justifying the means’ meant survival). I applauded the writers for showing Sam who, unable to have ‘fun’ because of his devastating loss, gets into costume to support his brother whom he loves beyond measure. I LOVE that the writers had enough sensitivity and took care to substantiate Sam’s loss. That was so indicative of Sam, to me, internalising instead of acting out (like Dean does). Until that point I hadn’t realised that I had just assumed Sam would snap out of it. I will concede, however, that it WAS through Dean that Sam received affirmation, something I think Samcentric fans have issues with. In other words, if Dean sanctions Sam’s emotions, then all is ok with SPN.
Sam not trusting Benny is an issue that [i]Sam[/i] DOES have. We have not been given a reasonable explanation for it yet, just like we don’t really have a reasonable explanation for Dean keeping Benny a secret. This is not a debate that Sam or Deancentric fans can resolve until the boys communicate.
I think the fandom is articulating divisive thoughts because the writers have deliberately and ingeniously (and perhaps disingenuously) guided our emotions to this end. All this heated debate amongst the fandom must be having them rubbing their hands with glee.
I have seen it maybe not overly in this forum certainly but it does exist so I am not plucking it out of the air so we will have to disagree 🙂
I have alot of views with Dean in his relations to Sam that I do not talk about here I do not expect my thoughts to be everybody’s because some are coming from a different angle and with different set of ideas and loyalties.
I believe there are Dean friendly sites and Sam friendly sites. I for one just can’t see it. I see Sam as a more nuanced, internal, deep and conflicted character, a true dark horse where still waters run deep :sigh: In many ways he is far more interesting. Dean does get more to say but I tell you what, it is Sam that gets under your skin. I think there are FAR more discussions regarding Sam in chat rooms, and isn’t that the whole point (as chuck would say)
Oh, it defnitely exists. I’ve seen it, too. And I put it down to lack of Sam POV. Since we seldom find out how Sam feels about things we either have to guess or take Dean’s POV as true. However, I don’t think that is the case. Dean’s POV is just that a POV. A lot of fans don’t seem to get that. They think everything Dean says is gospel.
This is not directed at you, kaz1. It’s just an observation from having read posts on other boards.
I hear you, sometimes Dean’s (seriously delicious) gruff voice drowns out Sam’s. An example of this is in LARP where Dean acknowledges Sam’s loss, I feel this is a good example of the problem; i.e. we only hear of Sam’s loss through Deans voice. But I do think this is typical of sibling relationships (older siblings do get to be taken more seriously in most families IMO). However, the writers do give Sam a POV, it’s just not as overt as Dean’s; for e.g. Sam calling Dean on the text explaining how it relates to Jessica, to me that whole scene was from Sam’s POV.
I LOVE these discussions, am new to all of this and am at serious risk of SPN becoming an obsession. So please keep these observations coming as it helps me catch up 😀
Percysowner-Although I am taking a break from commenting, I wanted to publicly apologize for my oversensitivity. I am fully aware that your comment was meant as a response to Jo. You might not have seen or choose to ignore my response to her and that is fine! I let my frustrations get the better of me as I had read so many comments that portray Dean as not loving, respecting, or wanting to be with his brother. Others that say the show and the brothers are broken beyond repair. I had WAY to much time on my hands due to a fews weeks of illness and read almost every comment. Not recommended.
Bottom line- I am coming back in awhile and I hope you do too. You do not have to interact with me. That’s fine. I would like everyone to love these characters and the show as much as I do but that is never, ever going to happen and it would be really boring here if it did.
Leah
Leah-Let me apologize in return. I was not trying to disrespect you. I was trying to not make it seem like I thought you were wrong and I was right, so I gave a supportive response to Jo’s comment instead of responding to you. I obviously failed in my intent but I truly did not mean to make you feel diminished or ignored. I will be more considerate in the future. We view parts of the show differently, but that is what makes the world and fandom interesting.
I will be back, although I am going to try to avoid issues which get me worked up. You do not have to interact with me either, but I have no problem interacting with you. I am going to work on keeping my temper and my emotions in check.
I am truly, truly sorry for hurting or insulting you in any way. I was wrong.
Percysowner
Thank you Percysowner. We should ALL check our tempers at the door. But not our emotions and passions. That is what I love about this website. It can be a tricky balance sometimes.
now if the boys follow your leads, there will be peace among the winchesters very soon. 😉 😆
So, i don’t know where i read this but i heard that the second half of season 8 would focus on Sam’s POV. What do you guys think?
Sandy, I read the same on Laura Poudom’s blog, but am struggling to find the source. I think it was JCarver who said this but am trying to find the article so I can put this comment into context. If anyone knows where please let me know.
It was in the review of the fist half of the season, I think about Cas and Sam and whats going on with them, written around the time of episode 8. I think Laura said that we would be getting more into Sam’s perception in the upcoming episodes. Jeremy Carver then reiterated it in his interview and said that 9 and 10 dealt with Sam’s perception. Neither of them have said will will get more Sam POV in the second half of the season. Based on the spoilers so far there has been nothing to indicate any Sam POV either. To me it seems logical that the writers will keep with the Dean POV and that the upcoming episodes will be more Dean centric.
Dean is the one with daddy issues now so it seems more logical that it be mainly his pov in episode 12. Dean ususally also has the most interaction with family memebers and guest stars alike.
13 seems monster of the week centric, dont see them shifting away from a Dean POV for that.
‘Trial and Error’ is myth heavy which indicates a Dean heavy episode, most people have concluded that Dean will be the one carrying out the tasks Kevin learns about from the tablet. So again Dean POV.
We have Cas stuff coming up later in the season, mythology stuff including the other 2 tasks, Benny is still in the picture, Charlie will be returning, then theres Garth and Kevin. All these characters predominately interact with Dean so switching from a Dean POV to a Sam one would be pointless and illogical.
Great. So Sam gets to be nothing more than a supporting character (& Jared a supporting actor) on a show that “supposedly” has (or at least “had) 2 lead actors. They may as well put Jensen’s name up front on the opening credits and move Jared’s name to the same section as Misha and Osric and Ty and DJ as a recurring character ’cause it doesn’t sound like he is going to have a major part in any up-coming episodes.
And with the return of everyone you mentioned and the fact that they all interact more with Dean, then Sam is going to be pushed even further into the background.
Robert Singer has said that Benny will be back, they arent finished with his storyline yet and they like him and he has great potential. He also talked about Benny and Dean’s friendship being genuine and it having plenty of room for further exploration. Also that in terms of Sam and Benny there is a lot to explore their too in terms of how Sam could possibly react to Benny in the future. (CONFLICT)
he talked about Cas’s storyline being very tightly linked to the tablet storyline. We will see more of how Niomi’s affect on Cas and how he struggles to deal with it.
Charlie will be back, they like the dynamic she brings to the show.
They are currently breaking storylines for the end of the season and have discussed bringing Amelia back as they really liked her and what she brought in terms of Sam’s storyline but as of yet she hasnt been included and Robert Singer isnt sure if she will or will not be brought back at all at some point. (if they’ve been paying attention to fan reaction it is doubtful we will see Amelia again).
Based on all the spoilers I’ve read it does indeed seem like Sam doesnt have much going on in the second half of the season but at least feel safe in the knowledge that Jared’s contract means he at least has to appear in every episode.
Another year of Sam being pretty, pretty wallpaper. Well God forbid we know less about Benny than Sam and Charlie (who I really do love) needs to get things off her chest while Sam remains mute. And since we totally skipped any description of Sam’s time in the Cage, we must make up for it by seeing Cas suffer because anyone is more important than Sam.
[quote]we totally skipped any description of Sam’s time in the Cage[/quote]
I’m curious as to why you think this. In the S6 finale we got inner-hell-Sam telling inner-Sam-Sam that he didn’t want to know what happened in the cage because it was so horrible. This is no different from Dean’s immediate post-Hell experience – he didn’t want to talk about it, because “there weren’t words” to describe the things he’d seen and experienced. We also got his roadside breakdown, mentions of torture, an increased drinking habit, and more self-worth issues. With Sam, most of S7 entailed the audience finding out just what Sam endured while in the cage due to the Lucifer-hallucinations. We got a couple breakdowns, mentions of torture, Sam’s hallucinations, episodes of him being sleep-deprived and distracted, his guilt issues resolved, and Sam exercising more to keep the devil at bay. Their experiences of Hell were similar in shades, but their ways of coping were very different, and the writers method of communicating that to the audience was different in each case. But I see no legitimate support for saying that the show totally skipped any description of Sam’s time in the cage.
We see it differently. Dean didn’t want to talk about it at first. Then we small flashes of what he experienced. We got to see his hallucination of Lilith reminding him of what he had done. The flashes became more frequent. We saw Dean not sleeping well or at all. Anna told Dean she knew what had happened, but we didn’t get the details until Dean told Sam that he had tortured in Hell. Finally we got to see EXACTLY what Dean had turned into in Hell when he was brought by the angels to torture Alistair. In season four, Dean began to drink more and more frequently and heavily. That pattern continued until Dean went to Purgatory. We basically saw and were TOLD about Dean’s experiences in Hell, so we could understand how it affected him.
With Sam at first he didn’t want to talk about it because he had no soul and so the part that suffered wasn’t on earth. When the wall broke we got the big “Don’t look at it, it was too HORRIBLE to remember” and so Sam took on the memories without us ever seeing them. We do see Sam flashing back to meat hooks in Meet the New Boss and we see halLucifer attacking Sam’s sense of reality. Dean comes in, tells Sam that Sam can tell reality from hallucinations by pushing his hand and that solves that. No disturbed sleep, no excess drinking. Heck, when Becky kidnaps him there is Sam give absolutely no indication that being restrained or trapped has ANY psychological effect. When we finally return to Sam’s hallucinations we see one shot of Sam surrounded by fire at the end of Repo Man. In the next few episodes, Sam doesn’t tell Dean what he is hallucinating or how it affects him. He doesn’t break down and tell anyone what happened in the Cage. We see HaLucifer again, but if he is anything to go by Sam spent his entire time being snarked at by Lucifer, nothing more. We don’t see sleep deprivation until Sam almost falls asleep driving the car in episode 16 and when he is hospitalized in episode 17. This is in contrast to Dean in season four where Sam talks about Dean not sleeping, we see Dean sitting on the floor after a night of no sleep and we see Dean drinking to fall asleep. Maybe I’m forgetting something but I don’t remember Sam mentioning torture or torture being mentioned except in the few episodes that had Mark Pelligrino which consisted of four whole episodes. Finally Cas bops in and takes away the hallucinations. Once they have been removed from Sam we can finally see how upsetting they were because CAS gets to act crazy and insane.
Now perhaps for you giving Cas the reaction instead of the person it actually happened to is satisfactory. But not to me. Dean basically was shown struggling with PTSD for 4 seasons with increasing depression and substance dependence. Sam came out with an itchy palm and never once talked to anyone about what happened to him. Even when he was in the hospital they didn’t permit him to talk to a psychiatrist. Yeah, the psychiatrist would have believed that everything in the Cage was hallucination, but at least we would have finally gotten a look at Sam.
So what you considered an adequate exploration I consider to be rushed, and non-existent.
I couldn’t agree more with you, Percy! Sam’s Hell/Cage story was woefully underdeveloped. The story actually had potential but was limited to the occasional hand rub! Very disappointing!
[quote]
Based on all the spoilers I’ve read it does indeed seem like Sam doesnt have much going on in the second half of the season but at least feel safe in the knowledge that Jared’s contract means he at least has to appear in every episode.[/quote]
Well that just makes me all warm and fuzzy. What was I worrying about??? 😮
In truth, I find it extremely insulting to me as a Sam & Jared fan for you to suggest that I should just be content with any little scrap of Sam TPTB deign to give us for the sole intent of honouring a clause that may or may not be in Jared’s contract.
If that is the case, then I would prefer the writers write him out of the show or kill him off and free up Jared to pursue other roles, because I consider the current situation to be a waste of Jared’s talent. He deserves to be treated so much better than this and so do his fans.
I don’t just want Jared to appear in every episode being way, way back in the background and not saying more than two words with no meaningful interaction with other characters and guest stars.
I want him to have a major and equal role in the show, like he used to have before all the storylines and secondary character interaction became so Dean-centric.
I want to see him be the sole focus of an ep like we’ve gotten on numerous occassions with Dean (What Is And What Should Be, In The Beginning, The End, etc).
I want to see an ep where Dean is in the first and last scene with Sam /Jared carrying the ep.
I want to see a story about Sam told through his POV and not through Dean’s. I want Sam to have characters that become his friends that he can bond with and talk to and confide in.
word times a million.
I think for me te only way I can be happy with this show and Sams story anymore is if Sam gets his own unique friend. I dont know why the writers are so against Sam having hsi own friend.
I am sorry I am going to repeat a post that I made upthread awhile ago but I see others repeat issues they have a problem with so here goes. I get that you have a problem with how things are going with Sam and that you want more equality in all things. No problem. I share some of your concerns but when people start wishing they would kill Sam off so Jared can pursue other things, it is Jared’s career you are talking about. He LOVES doing this show. He has said it repeatedly. He enjoys those he works with. He is proud of the show. He is happy. Why would you wish for him to be killed or written out over what are clearly your issues? It is ok to be unhappy but if you really cared about what Jared wants, you would respect his career choices.
Please don’t misunderstand. I would love to see more Sam POV and would love to see him have friends or people he can talk to and relate to besides Dean. That I agree with. But when people wish for Jared to be forced off the show because of their own disappointments, that is not taking Jared’s wishes into account at all.
I totally agree here Leah. Although I am deeply unhappy with the handling of Sam this season and all indications are that I won’t get what I want from the show, I do not want Jared to not have a job that he loves. Jared has a wife and a child and seems to love his work, so I wish him only the best.
Hades, thanks for letting me know, I’ll check it out. Percy mentions below that there is another site to checkout so am going over there now.
It just doesn’t seem logical IMO to have one of the main characters sidelined. Perhaps Jared has asked for more time off to be with family? Not sure, but will read Percy’s suggested article and get back. Enjoy the ep tonight
at a con both Jared and Jensen mentioned that they had negotiated for more time off, I think that was one of the reasons for the flashbacks of the seperate storylines as it meant Jared could be off when Jensen filmed Dean flashbacks and vice versa. Also I think it was Bob Singer or Jeremy Carver who said that they had written the season to allow the J’s more time off, they had increased the amount they use guest stars/other characters to allow for lighter schedules for them. Hence the episode Bitten.
[quote]they had increased the amount they use guest stars/other characters to allow for lighter schedules for them.[/quote]
I say the more the merrier. More characters means the opportunity for more vibrant, creative storytelling. Plus, our guys deserve a few days off now and then. 🙂
I agree with this, but my caveat would be, if we’re not to have to be quality over quantity. If we’re not to have as much screen time that is there needs to be really good. But I have not enjoyed Sam/Amelia storyline in any way, so far. And if that is the entirety of his storyline I am extremely disappointed-extremely. We still have 11 episodes to go so I haven’t given up hope, but so far, have to say I kinda hate it. Though I’m actually losing hope it’s in anyway redeemable. But others say they’re enjoying it so that is obviously subjective.
And if we don’t at least get more about what Sam went though before he met Amelia, I going to be out right pissed.
But I’m holding out hope that they haven’t shown us this yet, because it links in to the season’s storyline.
[quote]I’m sorry but I don’t see how RS thinks Sam’s relationship w/John was less complicated than Dean’s relationship w/him. Dean, IMO, didn’t become conflicted about John until S4. [/quote]
I not sure either. I could even see him saying Dean’s feeling about John are more conflicted because Sam seem to come to terms with his issues with John in S5. But the relationship is pretty complicated. John told Dean to kill Sam if necessary-that’s pretty complicated and to top it off he didn’t really even say goodbye to Sam. Right before he gave him a possible death sentence. Sam has never seemed to hold that against John, but the fact he doesn’t, says a lot about their very complicated relationship.
Not that John’s and Dean’s isn’t, but I’d say there pretty equal in this regard.
Yes, I agree. Given that John issued the ultimatum to Sam and then didn’t speak to Sam for [b]FOUR [/b]years, it is really hard for me to buy the idea that Dean and John had the more complicated [i]relationship[/i]. That’s not to say that Dean and John had an uncomplicated relationship, but it was definitely more in sync when John was alive.
As you said, I do believe Dean’s feelings re: John may be more complicated than Sam’s at this point. Dean used to revere John, but I think a lot of that ended around S3. I had forgotten about the episode where Dean shot himself or his alter. I do think Sam’s feelings re: John are less complicated at this point though they never really addressed the idea that John was prepared to KILL Sam. I’m sure Sam felt [i]something[/i] about that, but we’ll never know.
This slightly spoilery article [url]http://www.tvovermind.com/supernatural/supernatural-season-8-spoilers-winchester-family-mythology-castiel-benny-amelia[/url] makes me think Sam’s POV will not be a focus in the second half of the season.
Will wait and see what we actually get. Have been disappointed a few too many times by things that have or haven’t happened based on spoilers to get my hopes up. It’s one reason I do my best to avoid spoilers.
I seriously doubt we will see Sam’s POV in last part of the season. We’ve been hearing this forever it seems and it doesn’t happen. So I wouldn’t get my hopes up if I were you.
SPN will always be from Dean’s POV with Sam being a support charcter. If, after getting a new showrunner, it hasn’t changed my belief is that it won’t.
Sorry to be a downer but that’s just the way it is on SPN.
I’m sorry but I don’t see how RS thinks Sam’s relationship w/John was less complicated than Dean’s relationship w/him. Dean, IMO, didn’t become conflicted about John until S4.
This article is just depressing. How in the world is Amelia valuable to Sam? How does she present some huge complication? Last I checked, she was shacked up w/her ex-husband/current husband/whatever! They never tried to develop Amelia, so why even consider bringing her back!
Why not focus on Sam? Is it so hard to write a story about Sam? One that gives him a POV and some substance?
And I agree w/the girl, Marie’s, comments. I need Sam to emotionally connect with SOMEONE . . . anyone on this show. I’m so sick of him just being there, not doing or saying anything of substance!
[quote]How in the world is Amelia valuable to Sam? How does she present some huge complication?[/quote]
Pregnant, with a side dish of Who’s the daddy? That’s all I’ve got. And yes, Sam’s relationship SHOULD be considered as complicated as Dean’s, but them’s the breaks.
Ugh . . . just NO!!!
If that happens, I think I will actually turn off the show!
Kelly, Sam was screwed over, IMO, last year w/the weak post-Wall story they told, and he’s been thrown under a bus this year w/the horrible Sam/Amelia story and the OOC behavior.
Sadly, I’ve lost all hope re: Sam when it comes to this show. Clearly, fan fiction is the only place where I’ll get any good Sam stories or POV.
JMO of course.
I agree with you, [b]lala2.[/b] Dean’s relationship with John was pretty straightforward for much of his early life. He worshipped John and played the good little soldier. It was only when he was facing Hell that he doffed the rose-colored glasses and admitted that following John’s ironclad dictates might have screwed his life over. Sam and John, however, always seemed to have had conflict between them, because Sam was the defiant one who challenged John’s orders. He felt smothered and controlled by John, partly because that’s who John was, and partly because John had some sense of Sam’s destiny and wanted to protect him from it. That’s pretty complicated.
RS just sounds terribly out of touch about the Sam-Amelia storyline. Not everyone dislikes Amelia, but an awful lot of us found very little point in the relationship she had with Sam. Ending it was actually the best part, because it got Sam back on track in the main storyline. Adulterous relationships are sordid and offputting anyway.
I also thought it was nuts for Singer to proclaim Dean and Benny’s friendship genuine and rob the situation of its mystery. It also means they’ve probably decided to have Sam be wrong again, and Benny will overcome all his conflicts and be true-blue, and Sam’s suspicions were not the product of a hard-earned life lesson but just because he couldn’t get over being fooled by Ruby. If this weren’t so dismal, it would be amusing in its predictability.
I agree both on it being dismal and predictable.
[quote]I agree both on it being dismal and predictable.[/quote]
Exactly how I feel. RS seems to be a big problem for Sam and his fans as he has no clue who Sam is and doesn’t seem to care. Not sure about JC but he hasn’t convinced me that he sees or cares about Sam either.
IMO no one on this show cares about Sam except Jared.
I totally agree. And it’s even more apparent since Sera Gamble left. At least she seemed to be aware of Sam’s importance to the overall storyline and actually wrote eps for him where he had things to do and say.
Jo, I literally just posted the same thing! RS doesn’t seem to understand Sam at all, IMO. From what I’ve seen so far, JC is just as clueless as RS when it comes to Sam.
JMO of course.
Not only does RS seem out of touch w/r/t Sam/Amelia, but he also just seems out of touch w/r/t Sam, in general. I’m not sure if he understands Sam Winchester at all.
And as you said, he sort of ended any mystery w/r/t Benny. I’m not sure why he did that.
lala2 this is not a direct response to you, but most of the comments above talking about how everyone that writes for Supernatural HATES Sam and every living, breathing thing about him. What I never understood about “Sam girls” and “Dean girls” is they seem to see the show with such tunnel vision. If you honestly think the writers hate Sam, I am not sure if these comments are sarcastic for effect, but IMO there is no truth to that in reality. I do like reading your comments and its obvious you have real issues with this Season, but I want to just comment there are just as many fans that do not see the Sam issues you are addressing. Agree to disagree, I just wanted to say “I enjoy Sam’s story this season.”
[quote]lala2 this is not a direct response to you, but most of the comments above talking about how everyone that writes for Supernatural HATES Sam and every living, breathing thing about him. What I never understood about “Sam girls” and “Dean girls” is they seem to see the show with such tunnel vision. If you honestly think the writers hate Sam, I am not sure if these comments are sarcastic for effect, but IMO there is no truth to that in reality. I do like reading your comments and its obvious you have real issues with this Season, but I want to just comment there are just as many fans that do not see the Sam issues you are addressing. Agree to disagree, I just wanted to say “I enjoy Sam’s story this season.”[/quote]
I didn’t say they hate Sam. What I said was that they don’t write anything from Sam’s POV.
And please tell me what story you see for Sam because all I see is a badly written romance from the POV of Amelia. We haven’t gotten any insight into how Sam feels at all. Only lip service. He can say he loves her but I didn’t see or feel it.
The comments above are saying things like in the past Sam “had things to do and say†and “no one on this show cares about Sam…†First, I could not disagree more, and second these are absurd comments. Why not save money and fire Jared, put a Brown Wig on top of a broomstick, and let the Bushy haired broomstick play Sam? Dean can make a comment, the camera can flash to “Sam,†and Dean can say “shut up, we’re doing what I WANT!†(I bet I get comments saying that would improve the show. Absurd!)
Jo1027, what I think would make the Amelia storyline have worked better (and I PRAY she does not return) is if we had a scene with Sam telling Dean
“Dean, when you and Cas disappeared when Dick Roman died, Kevin was taken by Crowley, I was BROKEN. Broken to where I could not even look for the most important person in my life.â€
THAT is IMO is what is missing from Season 8, I don’t think we have been given a good enough explanation why Sam didn’t look for even 1 day! Didn’t even log onto ‘Search The Web’ once! With this lack of an acceptable excuse for Sam’s break from hunting, then throwing him into a love story without said acceptable excuse, is why I think the Amelia story did not totally work. I see their story as they found each other when both were broken. They helped fix each other to then face their reality again (well, not Amelia, she chose Sam in the end, but Sam would not have been in for the long haul with Amelia IMO). Theirs was a “tragic love story†with more tragic and less love. Did Sam love Amelia? Yes, he did. Always will for what she did for him at that time in his life. Soul mates? Not so much. I was taken aback at how much the final Amelia scene affected me, her opening the door to the empty room. Sam moved on, it will hurt for a bit, but he will get over it. Amelia has a different set of hurt to deal with, but as a viewer I hope we have seen the last of her in that beautifully shot scene of the empty room. I felt for her, so to have that reaction I realized overall I liked their story better as a whole than the sum of its parts. TPTB need to leave it at that.
Reading all the complaints about Sam so far in S8, maybe the upset viewers would have liked his story better if we DID get a better explanation as to why he quit? All the talk of Sam’s POV, etc., remember when Dick Roman was killed, in the timeline of the series, it was not all that long after Sam’s wall broke, and Sam was just over the Lucifer hallucinations. He was pretty beat up, and then lost Dean in a poof? I could see him wanting to hide as far away from the world as he could. Maybe the wrong choice for a hero and hunter, but he’s human after all. Until he hits a dog and the hero kicks in…….It takes time to get his “Sammy†back, so you are right, he is not yet the same Sam we’ve seen in the past (not the same Dean either, it was quite a year apart).
The quote from ciar:
“Also, I didn’t like the new Sam who seemed cold and distant towards his brother when said brother returned from Purgatory. I also didn’t like the Sam who we didn’t see trying to find out what happened to his brother. Early S8 Sam Winchester is like a weird Pod Person and I hope he’s gone for good!â€
Agree—see above. We deserve a better explanation as to why Sam quit. Half way through the season we better get it sooner rather than later. If we don’t get one at all, it will be too bad in what otherwise is (IMO) such a strong season.
[quote]The comments above are saying things like in the past Sam “had things to do and say†and “no one on this show cares about Sam…†First, I could not disagree more, and second these are absurd comments. Why not save money and fire Jared, put a Brown Wig on top of a broomstick, and let the Bushy haired broomstick play Sam? Dean can make a comment, the camera can flash to “Sam,†and Dean can say “shut up, we’re doing what I WANT!†(I bet I get comments saying that would improve the show. Absurd!)
Jo1027, what I think would make the Amelia storyline have worked better (and I PRAY she does not return) is if we had a scene with Sam telling Dean
“Dean, when you and Cas disappeared when Dick Roman died, Kevin was taken by Crowley, I was BROKEN. Broken to where I could not even look for the most important person in my life.â€
THAT is IMO is what is missing from Season 8, I don’t think we have been given a good enough explanation why Sam didn’t look for even 1 day! Didn’t even log onto ‘Search The Web’ once! With this lack of an acceptable excuse for Sam’s break from hunting, then throwing him into a love story without said acceptable excuse, is why I think the Amelia story did not totally work. I see their story as they found each other when both were broken. They helped fix each other to then face their reality again (well, not Amelia, she chose Sam in the end, but Sam would not have been in for the long haul with Amelia IMO). Theirs was a “tragic love story†with more tragic and less love. Did Sam love Amelia? Yes, he did. Always will for what she did for him at that time in his life. Soul mates? Not so much. I was taken aback at how much the final Amelia scene affected me, her opening the door to the empty room. Sam moved on, it will hurt for a bit, but he will get over it. Amelia has a different set of hurt to deal with, but as a viewer I hope we have seen the last of her in that beautifully shot scene of the empty room. I felt for her, so to have that reaction I realized overall I liked their story better as a whole than the sum of its parts. TPTB need to leave it at that.
Reading all the complaints about Sam so far in S8, maybe the upset viewers would have liked his story better if we DID get a better explanation as to why he quit? All the talk of Sam’s POV, etc., remember when Dick Roman was killed, in the timeline of the series, it was not all that long after Sam’s wall broke, and Sam was just over the Lucifer hallucinations. He was pretty beat up, and then lost Dean in a poof? I could see him wanting to hide as far away from the world as he could. Maybe the wrong choice for a hero and hunter, but he’s human after all. Until he hits a dog and the hero kicks in…….It takes time to get his “Sammy†back, so you are right, he is not yet the same Sam we’ve seen in the past (not the same Dean either, it was quite a year apart).
The quote from ciar:
“Also, I didn’t like the new Sam who seemed cold and distant towards his brother when said brother returned from Purgatory. I also didn’t like the Sam who we didn’t see trying to find out what happened to his brother. Early S8 Sam Winchester is like a weird Pod Person and I hope he’s gone for good!â€
Agree—see above. We deserve a better explanation as to why Sam quit. Half way through the season we better get it sooner rather than later. If we don’t get one at all, it will be too bad in what otherwise is (IMO) such a strong season.[/quote]
My comment to the broomstick thing would be that there are a great many episodes of SPN where Sam’s dialog is pretty much that of a broomstick. He doesn’t get to say anything unless it involves hunting. He doesn’t get to talk about how he feels about or even why he drank demon blood. He doesn’t get to talk about or even experience much of his Cage trauma. I want more for Sam. He shouldn’t be a support charater which is what I see him as now.
In relation to Amelia, what you said was what would have worked better meaning it didn’t work for you all that much either. It didn’t work at all for me because I didn’t learn anything about Sam except that he stopped hunting, got a dog and a girl. Why did Sam stop hunting? We don’t know and I have to wonder if we ever will. It would’ve made sense if we had been allowed to see Sam directly after Dean went to purgatory but we didn’t so how can we even know what if any grief he experienced. This is my problem with the show, we never get to see how things that happen to Sam impact Sam. Until we do, I’m going to continue to be bitter.
Great post, Jo! Completely agree w/you.
Jo1027:
“In relation to Amelia, what you said was what would have worked better meaning it didn’t work for you all that much either.â€
I said it was not my favorite story, but I liked the overall story more than the sum of its parts. It did work for me, as it is right now, if we never see Amelia again. The best part of their story was the ending—not because I was cheering when Amelia saw the empty room, but because I felt for her, and Sam. Done. Over. If the story is revisited, I think my feelings would change.
I totally agree with your comments “It didn’t work at all for me because I didn’t learn anything about Sam except that he stopped hunting, got a dog and a girl…†To comment again overall it DID work for ME, but I agree we did not get an acceptable answer as to WHY Sam quit. But remember the boys were not really communicating for the first part of the season, and in LARP they have started to move back towards each other, so maybe they are ready to have those conversations (I sure hope so, if I was Dean I would still be hurt my brother never looked for me unless he had a better excuse than a girl).
“My comment to the broomstick thing would be that there are a great many episodes of SPN where Sam’s dialog is pretty much that of a broomstick.â€
No comment, I’ve never spoken to a broomstick ? But I still disagree. I do agree with your thoughts about Sam and being in the cage, and his wall breaking, etc. stories. I blame Sere Gamble for missing that boat. Sam’s wall falling was suppose to be a massively horrible event…..but all that happened is Sam limped his way into watch Cas claim himself God….and there was a lot of missed opportunity in exploring the Lucifer hallucinations further too. I think had Carver taken over in Season 6, we may not have these complaints.
I’m one who thinks Gamble took more than her fair share of grief over the stories. I liked season six. We also know that the season six story most people had issues with was Soulless!Sam which probably sounded good on paper. But we also know that Edlund came up with that storyline and that his intention was for it to go the entire year. While I personally thought it might have worked better if it had been the full year, fandom in general hated it and it was Gamble who cut it off early.
By season seven there were rumors flying that some of Gamble’s show running responsibilities had been shifted to Robert Singer. I’m pretty sure he was also co-show runner in season six. Gamble was the public face of the show, but Singer had a lot of influence. The EW interview about the Henry revelation and where they go from there was entitled Supernatural’s Boss gives interview. I was expecting an interview with Carver, but the interviewee was Robert Singer. I’m wondering how much influence he has had these last few seasons and if the missteps can be totally laid at Gamble’s door. Carver has only written one script this year and Singer is the one talking about the future. It is possible that both Gamble and Carver ignored important story beats for Sam, but the one constant over the seasons is Robert Singer.
This is all just conjecture, but I did feel that Gamble got a bit of a bad deal during her time.
You know . . . I loved S6 too. I especially loved the whole SS plot and would have been fine w/it lasting the entire year.
I do think there were too many stories in S6, but most of them had great potential. The Campbells were misused and then killed off too quickly. Samuel was pretty much ruined. But I liked the idea of the Campbells and learning more about Mary’s side of the family.
The MOA plot was the start of the overarching angle that really has NOTHING to do w/the main characters. As someone else pointed out, Sam and Dean could have been replaced w/Jo Blow Hunter and Jane Huntress for all the importance they held to the resolution of the MOA plot.
Then, there was Castiel’s arc, which seemed really tacked on to me, but that’s JMO.
In all, I enjoyed S6. I liked it better than S7, and so far, it is much better, IMO, than S8.
I really liked Soulless Sam, it was some of Jared’s best work in the series. I think it played out perfectly….JUST when I was thinking “I miss the real Sammy” his soul was back. Season 6 was uneven but had some stellar episodes. I have heard the same Sera / Season 7 rumors. She all of the sudden was not the face of the show–the “Producer’s Preview” videos was being done by RS instead of SG, and RS was also doing most of the press. SG really fell off the face of the earth, and never did any “exit” interviews either, talking about leaving the show, etc. RS is the technical guy, fantastic director, and technically co-showrunner from the beginning with EK. SG maybe got a bad rap, but this site and many others were NOT kind to Season 6 &7. IMO there is no comparison in overall quality and consistency of Season 6&7 compared to Season 8—Season 8 is light years better.
I liked Soulless Sam too and I thought at just about the right time. Really loved a lot about S6 and 7, but I would say S8 is a lot better too, if not for the Sam storyline. I am extremely disappointed with his story. And his he is half of the show that kind of a huge problem.
I didn’t love the depressed Dean last year, but except for how at times he seemed distant from Sam, I understood it. They’d been through a lot, it made sense for his character.
But this Sam thing has become a huge issue for me. So if they don’t correct it at all (and that is beginning to look like the case) the entire first half of the season is a loss for me.
Soulless Sam somewhat ironic that the best writing Sam has had recently is when he has no emotions to write for .
[quote]Soulless Sam somewhat ironic that the best writing Sam has had recently is when he has no emotions to write for .[/quote]
You’re right about that. It seems the writers can’t write an emotion for Sam, only for Dean.
[b]Percysowner[/b], the things you’ve mentioned as being problematic with recent seasons do seem to fit with the things Singer mentioned in that interview as being things he liked in SPN. The interview also shows that Singer doesn’t seem to have the same view of Sam and Dean etc as a lot of the fandom (or the writers).
I also agree that Gamble got a hard time that wasn’t deserved. I enjoyed S6 and S7 because I felt they moved the SPN stories back towards the type of stories I enjoyed in S1-3. Once I had an explanation for Sam’s weird behaviour in S6, I thought the idea was really intriguing as it gave us another lens through which to view the character of Sam Winchester and to see what made him tick. I wish that Soulless!Sam had been kept for the entirety of S6.
S7 was a bit light on Winchester character exploration and a bit too heavy on Leviathan hunting. I prefer my SPN when Sam and Dean (and their lives) are the central focus of the plots and so while I enjoyed most of S7 I didn’t think it was as good as it could have been. I also wanted to see more of Dean and Sam dealing with Sam’s hallucinations more, I felt that storyline wasn’t properly explored or developed. Sam’s wall coming down had been flagged as being a dreadful thing but then the subsequent plots didn’t demonstrate that sufficiently 🙁
agree agree but i guess ultimately, us fans can’t do anything about the way SPN is being written. Though I sincerely hope the writers do go online once in a while and read up on fan comments and issues.
I’m another who loved Souless Sam. It was fun to see him actually have some dialogue. I loved his snark.
I, too, think that SG took more of the blame than she deserved. RS was equally to blame and none fell on him from most of the fandom.
I thought SS was RS’s idea, But I’m not certain about that.
I can’t remember now if it was BE or RS. I do know it wasn’t SG’s idea.
It was Robert Singer from what I understand who came up with Soulless Sam and the original idea was to have him that way for the season but obviously it was cut short.
Okay, I’m on a bitchy mood on the count of one particular R.S. Interview…
So, I’m gonna be bitchier and quote the hell out of all the “lovely bits” that made me pissed to the nth degree.
Apologies upfront for rant (and excessive use of quotation marks). And this is just my (exasperated) opinion. No personal insult intended.
RS: “Well, look, we make this stuff up as we go along.”
No shit. I think this one particularly makes it evident that they’ve been pulling shit out of thin air for quite some time. Atleast Kripke had the brains to admit this AFTERWARDS. But I do think that he had most of the his story worked out, in one way or another. Since season 6, I’ve felt that they’ve had minimal to no goal in mind and have just been doing stuff that sounded cool.
RS:”Sometimes early on we don’t exactly know where it ends, we just know where we’re going but not how we finish it.”
Again, sounds very thought out and confidence inspiring [/ end sarcasm]. But what I’d like to hear is how they have this strong, new vision. And then follow through it! Not this arbitrary coin toss and plots that go nowhere.
RS:”…we don’t make arbitrary left turns just for the sake of “that would be a good story beat,””
AHHAHAHHAHHAHHAAAA! That is all.
RS:”Really, whatever the plot of the week is, ultimately it comes down to “how are the brothers feeling about it, how does it affect their relationship, what’s underneath the surface of the story?” “
Uh huh. Could’ve fooled me. He’s been singing this same tune since the beginning (of show) but ever since Kripke dropped out, I’ve been less and less impressed by the way they have handled this particular “vision”.
RS:”You guys are always so ahead of us.”
Honestly? She didn’t put out anything that any normal fan wouldn’t have thought out before. I’m kinda scared by all the things that they apparently haven’t even thougt about. I’m not expecting them to think about every single detail to match As Time Goes By (hee!) but these questions aren’t really that far fetched. If they introduce “something new and exciting” they ‘should’ think about what it means in the long run and not how “cool” it is now. Atleast in the case that they plan to revisit it later.
re: Sam
RS: “I thought it [Amelia] opened up a side of Sam that was really interesting.”
Really? And what side was that?`That he wanted out of hunting? That he wanted normal? That he had something he never had?? Okay, at this point, I’d be much happier if the interviewed person be ANYONE other than R.S. because this is depressing the hell out of me… Has he seen the show??! This “human” story of Sams, wasn’t something new, or interesting. Just my opinion but still. I didn’t learn anything about Sam that I allready didn’t know. What WAS new but not so exciting, was that the Sam I did see, seemed to have little to none feelings regarding his own brother who used to be the world to him. But all it took was one exploding Dick and all that love and loyalty went out the window.
RS:”We think she’s a really valuable character. We liked her a lot and certainly it creates a good complication in Sam’s life.”
Again, I don’t see it. What complication? She asked him to choose and stay gone if he left. He left. She went back to her husband. End of story. Is he really gonna go back to her at some point? That seems like a shitty thing to do…
RS:”I think … it’s [Sams reason to hunt] really revenge motivated. “
Wow. Again, something exciting and new! Sam is motivated by revenge to hunt! I never saw that coming. ![/sarcasm] Except, I didn’t because I thought Sam had ditched the revenge train in season 5 when he discovered all the “good” it had brought him. I ‘thought’ he had come to terms of hunting and it being important. But I guess that’s not so exciting…
RS:”I think still, he in the back of his mind thinks there’s a normal life out there for him. In a way, Dean’s onboard with that. He’d like to see [Sam] happy but they have this one thing to do. Now, television being television, they’ll have something else “one thing to do” down the line. “
Yeah. That doesn’t sound depressing as hell, at all. He wants out, but something always comes along and he never gets there. Terrific. I’d like them to end the show with both boys going out guns blazing, because they are fighting the good fight and are together… not because they had no other choice.
re:Dean
RS:”He’s probably much more internal than Sam in a way. I think that when they get into these emotional areas the catalyst is more Sam. “
Deans the internal one??!! Again, what show is he.. never mind. So, Sams the extrovert. That’s why we have such a “clear view” of where his head is at.
RS:”Dean is always in defense of dad.”
AHHAHAHHHHAHAAA! Yes he is, IN SEASON 1! Glad to see you’re up to speed…
RS:”I would hope whenever we bring the curtain down that Dean would find some peace, and probably if I have anything to say about it he will. “
Yeah. Dean should find some peace. While Sam keeps on hunting when there’s always “one thing to do”.
re: brothers
RS:”I don’t think it’s shaky [boys latest truce] . “
Okay.
RS:”It’s a new conflict. I won’t tell you any more than that but as always, there’s always something going on between them.”
What’s with this goddamn CONFLICT, every single time?! When will they (TPTB) understand that we won’t stop watching if they get along for more than one episode?! They don’t have to butt heads every week! Relationships do have good times, every once in a while. Or are they just having a blast from every friday to wednesday and all the shit comes down on thursdays? Well aint’ that just my luck…
“But are we completely done with the flashbacks for both Dean and Sam?”
RS: Yeah.
Me: Great. Perfect. All questions answered then. Great. I feel so happy now. Everything makes sense. Finally.
Yeah, you’re right, it’s coming… [/end sarcams]
Supernarttu,
I get you’re clever and making points with sarcasm, but some of your language is offensive. I’m guessing you’ve never been a writer on a television series. I’ve read tons of interviews with writers and showrunners, and most make comments like “we make this stuff up as we go.” Maybe RS was being sarcastic. He advised they start and map out the entire season, sometimes not knowing where it will end, but have a general idea. Whatever TPTB’s process is in Season 8, it’s working. I have no other comments on your interpretation of RS’s interview, other than to comment there are lots of fans who do not agree with your Season 8 feelings and comments. Agree to disagree. I would also suggest using some less colorful language to make a point.
Nate,
I do apologise. This was written in the wrong mood. Usually I just mull it over and not post. In this case, I def. should have done that. This was quite extreme I agree.
This is the Bitterness -thread and I felt like I had to vent a “bit”. But I could have done it much better.
And Alice, feel free to edit or delete this if you feel it is insulting. I didn’t have my filter on, so I understand that it sounds harsh.
I should make an account so that I could edit stuff myself when I post, don’t bother the mods…
Sorry for the swearing aswell.
[quote]What complication? [/quote]Over to you percysowner….tell Supernarttu about the child which even I believe is the complication
I am concerned that with the emphasis on Sam and Dean being the last of the royal families for hunters (the Campbells) and the Men of Letters that we will have to start the next generation and that Amelia will show up either pregnant or with a Winchester child. That is the only complication I can come up with that would tie to Amelia. Several people have asked that I not bring that up again, so unless it actually happens, this is my final word.
/me begs the guiding force of the Universe to make it so this plotline does not come to pass.
I really couldn’t stomach a Winchester baby brought about in that way :sigh:
[quote] Okay, I’m on a bitchy mood on the count of one particular R.S. Interview.
So, I’m gonna be bitchier and quote the hell out of all the “lovely bits” that made me pissed to the nth degree.
Apologies upfront for rant (and excessive use of quotation marks). And this is just my (exasperated) opinion. No personal insult intended. [/quote]
Wow, it always amazes me when I read info from showrunners that highlights how little that person seems to know or understand about his/her own show.
[quote] RS: “Well, look, we make this stuff up as we go along.”
No shit. I think this one particularly makes it evident that they’ve been pulling shit out of thin air for quite some time. Atleast Kripke had the brains to admit this AFTERWARDS. But I do think that he had most of the his story worked out, in one way or another. Since season 6, I’ve felt that they’ve had minimal to no goal in mind and have just been doing stuff that sounded cool.
RS:”Sometimes early on we don’t exactly know where it ends, we just know where we’re going but not how we finish it.”
Again, sounds very thought out and confidence inspiring (/ end sarcasm). But what I’d like to hear is how they have this strong, new vision. And then follow through it! Not this arbitrary coin toss and plots that go nowhere.
RS:”we don’t make arbitrary left turns just for the sake of “that would be a good story beat,””
AHHAHAHHAHHAHHAAAA! That is all. [/quote]
Sometimes, unfortunately, plot elements of SPN have very much come across as the writers making shite up as they go along, however, they make a LOT of episodes and on the whole the good seems to be more in effect than the bad. But it’s not at all reassuring to hear showrunners saying things like that, I remember when Stargate SG1 and Stargate Atlantis’ original showrunners took a back seat and handed things over to a writing team that had no clue – there were lots of interviews (like this one) in which it came across that the new showrunners didn’t have the same understanding or emotional connection to the characters that the original showrunner had. It was around about that time that the characters and plots all started going downhill. I hope this won’t happen with SPN.
As for the arbitrary plot turns that he thinks they don’t make? I join you in your sarcastic laughter!!!!!
[quote] RS:”Really, whatever the plot of the week is, ultimately it comes down to “how are the brothers feeling about it, how does it affect their relationship, what’s underneath the surface of the story?” “
Uh huh. Could’ve fooled me. He’s been singing this same tune since the beginning (of show) but ever since Kripke dropped out, I’ve been less and less impressed by the way they have handled this particular “vision”. [/quote]
I agree with your assessment of the ball being dropped on this important part of the SPN world. I’m having to find more and more of my assessment or portrayal of the Winchesters’ feelings about things from other fans or from fanfic.
[quote] re: Sam
RS: “I thought it (Amelia) opened up a side of Sam that was really interesting.”
Really? And what side was that?`That he wanted out of hunting? That he wanted normal? That he had something he never had?? Okay, at this point, I’d be much happier if the interviewed person be ANYONE other than R.S. because this is depressing the hell out of me. Has he seen the show??! This “human” story of Sams, wasn’t something new, or interesting. Just my opinion but still. I didn’t learn anything about Sam that I allready didn’t know. What WAS new but not so exciting, was that the Sam I did see, seemed to have little to none feelings regarding his own brother who used to be the world to him. But all it took was one exploding Dick and all that love and loyalty went out the window.
RS:”We think she’s a really valuable character. We liked her a lot and certainly it creates a good complication in Sam’s life.”
Again, I don’t see it. What complication? She asked him to choose and stay gone if he left. He left. She went back to her husband. End of story. Is he really gonna go back to her at some point? That seems like a shitty thing to do [/quote]
For the love of Chuck, please tell me that there is someone in the SPN production office I can officially contact to BEG for no more Amelia (or Sam trying to find normal). That plotline was boring, soap opera nonsense and very much NOT what I want from Supernatural in terms of story
Also, I didn’t like the new Sam who seemed cold and distant towards his brother when said brother returned from Purgatory. I also didn’t like the Sam who we didn’t see trying to find out what happened to his brother. Early S8 Sam Winchester is like a weird Pod Person and I hope he’s gone for good!
[quote] RS:”I think it’s (Sams reason to hunt) really revenge motivated. “
Wow. Again, something exciting and new! Sam is motivated by revenge to hunt! I never saw that coming. !(/sarcasm) Except, I didn’t because I thought Sam had ditched the revenge train in season 5 when he discovered all the “good” it had brought him. I ‘thought’ he had come to terms of hunting and it being important. But I guess that’s not so exciting
RS:”I think still, he in the back of his mind thinks there’s a normal life out there for him. In a way, Dean’s onboard with that. He’d like to see (Sam) happy but they have this one thing to do. Now, television being television, they’ll have something else “one thing to do” down the line. “
Yeah. That doesn’t sound depressing as hell, at all. He wants out, but something always comes along and he never gets there. Terrific. I’d like them to end the show with both boys going out guns blazing, because they are fighting the good fight and are together – not because they had no other choice. [/quote]
I’m starting to think that RS has only got room for Season 1 characterisations of Sam and Dean in his brain because he doesn’t seem to see the character development that’s happened with the brothers over the years. I too want to see something less depressing and something less domestic. I’m watching SPN for the “hunting things, saving people†not Sam angsting over whether or not he can have a girlfriend.
[quote] re:Dean
RS:”He’s probably much more internal than Sam in a way. I think that when they get into these emotional areas the catalyst is more Sam. “
Deans the internal one??!! Again, what show is he.. never mind. So, Sams the extrovert. That’s why we have such a “clear view” of where his head is at. [/quote]
Dean was more internal at the beginning of SPN but Dean’s got a bit better at telling Sam how he feels about things. Sam used to be the brother who was happier to discuss his feelings with Dean and who tried to get Dean to open up to him BUT nowadays Sam is much more reluctant to discuss his feelings than he used to be and he doesn’t really give the viewers much of an idea of what’s going on in his noggin anymore.
[quote] RS:”Dean is always in defense of dad.”
AHHAHAHHHHAHAAA! Yes he is, IN SEASON 1! Glad to see you’re up to speed
RS:”I would hope whenever we bring the curtain down that Dean would find some peace, and probably if I have anything to say about it he will. “
Yeah. Dean should find some peace. While Sam keeps on hunting when there’s always “one thing to do”. [/quote]
Dean is not always in defence of John, the brothers have both changed their views on this issue a lot and I’m going to be charitable and put that down to mixed feelings on a complex issue rather than inconsistent writing.
Oh noes, I do not want to see RS’ version of Dean and Sam’s ending. I would not enjoy that at all. I either want them going out in a blaze of glory or them going back to good old S1 style hunting without epic Heaven v Hell interference.
[quote]
re: brothers
RS:”I don’t think it’s shaky (boys latest truce) . “
Okay.
RS:”It’s a new conflict. I won’t tell you any more than that but as always, there’s always something going on between them.”
What’s with this goddamn CONFLICT, every single time?! When will they (TPTB) understand that we won’t stop watching if they get along for more than one episode?! They don’t have to butt heads every week! Relationships do have good times, every once in a while. Or are they just having a blast from every friday to wednesday and all the shit comes down on thursdays? Well aint’ that just my luck [/quote]
WHY must the writers always think conflict between Sam and Dean is what sells this show to the audience?!?!?!?! It’s boring and lazy and contrived drama and it does the show + actors a disservice. A large part of the show’s attraction for a large part of the audience is the brothers’ bond and keeping that strong. I think when showrunners start forcing conflict into shows it’s because they’re bored or out of ideas.
See? Now that’s a way to make a sanely put comment.
Not my excessive rant which was waaayyy over the top.
But thanks Ciar, you made more sense than I did 🙂
[quote]See? Now that’s a way to make a sanely put comment.
Not my excessive rant which was waaayyy over the top.
But thanks Ciar, you made more sense than I did :)[/quote]
Ah, but some days a massive, gigantic, tempestuous rant is really necessary and therapeutic 🙂 Fandom can be both enjoyable and frustrating.
I’m starting to think that RS has only got room for Season 1 characterisations of Sam and Dean in his brain because he doesn’t seem to see the character development that’s happened with the brothers over the years. I too want to see something less depressing and something less domestic. I’m watching SPN for the “hunting things, saving people†not Sam angsting over whether or not he can have a girlfriend.
THIS! IMO a retcon back to S1 was the worst possible way to go. People are the sum of ALL their experiences so why are they ignoring the things that have happened in S2 to S7? Makes absolutely no sense to me.
[quote]I’m starting to think that RS has only got room for Season 1 characterisations of Sam and Dean in his brain because he doesn’t seem to see the character development that’s happened with the brothers over the years. I too want to see something less depressing and something less domestic. I’m watching SPN for the “hunting things, saving people†not Sam angsting over whether or not he can have a girlfriend.
THIS! IMO a retcon back to S1 was the worst possible way to go. People are the sum of ALL their experiences so why are they ignoring the things that have happened in S2 to S7? Makes absolutely no sense to me.[/quote]
This was in reply to Ciar’s post.
[quote]THIS! IMO a retcon back to S1 was the worst possible way to go. People are the sum of ALL their experiences so why are they ignoring the things that have happened in S2 to S7? Makes absolutely no sense to me.[/quote]
Excellent point, Jo! It pains me how much Carver wants to get away from Sam’s very interesting, colorful history. I would be exploiting it, not running away from it.
Carver is really lacking in many areas, IMO. I don’t think I’ll ever move past his OOC path for Sam this year or fully understand why he didn’t want Sam to search for Dean. It goes against the very fabric of the freakin’ show!
[b]Ciar[/b] and [b]Supernarttu[/b] – great posts! I couldn’t agree more w/you both!
Your rant was on the money, [b]Supernarttu[/b], so rant away!
[quote]WHY must the writers always think conflict between Sam and Dean is what sells this show to the audience?!?!?!?! It’s boring and lazy and contrived drama and it does the show + actors a disservice. A large part of the show’s attraction for a large part of the audience is the brothers’ bond and keeping that strong. I think when showrunners start forcing conflict into shows it’s because they’re bored or out of ideas.[/quote]
[b]Ciar[/b], that sums up how I feel about the show. This show existed very well w/o crazy conflict for THREE years. There is no need for all this unnecessary drama and conflict btw the parties.
[quote]Amy I am really interested in why you suggest this. Perhaps you can post the answer in the bitterness thread; I will go over and answer you there. I personally just don’t see how or why they could/would possibly want to do this, so I would appreciate valid tangible examples as I don’t see them for myself. I agree to a degree that Sam has had less to say this season, however this last episode I feel was back to normal. This reply is intended with great respect to your opinion :-)[/quote]
Bringing this from another thread; The examples are in every interview made. The writers…Carver, Edlund, et el…have all publicly stated they love Dean. They love Castiel. They love Benny. They love them together. They are a triumverate from purgatory. Name one writer (excluding Sarah G) who once said they liked Sam, liked even writing for him. There have been none. The writers give interview love to every single charector exapt Sam
Sam…his history by Carvers own words is too complicated to understand so they will ignore it. Whihc means they will ignore all Sam’s charecterization….everything he has gone through…everything that has made Sam…Sam.
In Singers interview he said Sam dreams of being happy but wont get it. But Dean…if its the last think he does Singer will make sure Dean gets to have happy before show ends.
Does Sam have ONE person he can confide in? Talk to? Thinks of Family? HAs scenes where he has emotinally rich, scenes…scens that dont have to do with imparting exposition about the monster of the week? Does he have a best friend? Does he have someone he thinks of as a brother? Someone outside of Dean?
Sam was written to not look for Dean at all because Carver didn’t want Sam anywhere near saving Dean. Couldn’t introduce Benny…the better brother then Sam ever was… if Sam had a hand in saving Dean…if they actually showed Sam …allowed sam to be shown as broken at Deans death… they could never introduce Benny as the poor, sad little vampire who loves and respects Dean so much and is the greatest brother nd friend ever.
They wouldn’t have written Ameila as such a horrible, rotten charecotr. Wouldn’t have hired an actress with so little chemistry with Jared. WOuldn’t have written this ‘romance’ where fans were so divided as to what this ship actually means too Sam.
There wouldn’t have been 10 episodes with the boys at each others throats over something that was so out of charector for Sam.
They would have shown Sam immediatley after Dean disappeared…but they couln’t allow anyone to feel sympathy or emoathy for Sam. They wouldn’t be able to push the Benny is the better brother story if they showed Sams loss and grief.
We got 2 episoides of benny te perfect woobie vampire and no insight into Sam.
I’m so frustrated and heartsick..And I’m sorry I’m all over the map with my thoughts.
[quote]They would have shown Sam immediatley after Dean disappeared…but they couln’t allow anyone to feel sympathy or emoathy for Sam.[/quote]This is the main problem