Discussion Topic: The Apocalypse – Did It Happen?
The Apocalypse – did it happen?
As we all know in season 5 everything was leading to the apocalypse. In the Supernatural world it all was supposed to lead to the final fight between Lucifer and Michael. As we know though Sam sacrificed himself and the apocalypse was…
Yes, what happened to the apocalypse? The apocalypse in literature is the umbrella term that includes Armageddon, Judgment Day, Tribulation, and End Time (or End of Days if you like). The meaning can vary between different languages so I stay with the term “Apocalypse” even when “Tribulation” in English or “End Time” in German would be more right. There are several signs that show the apocalypse is coming:
• The coming of the Antichrist
• Seals are broken
• Whore of Babylon will be disempowered
• Rising of the Dead
• A Fight between Michael (or Jesus) and Lucifer
And some more…
Sounds like season 5 does it?
But from one point on it is very different. Michael and Lucifer did not fight! They talked, Michael got fried and then Lucifer/Sam jumped the pit together with Michael/Adam. If it had gone by the book Michael would have won the fight with Lucifer and then there would be a new earth, a new sky and the New Jerusalem (or the new Kingdom). In Supernatural we did approach a new time, a new season but not God’s Kingdom on earth.
We know that there were earthquakes, thunderstorms, and several signs that showed the apocalypse was starting, but before everybody figured out what was going on the apocalypse stopped. And the apocalypse is something that you can not miss, at least according to the bible.
How bad did our two Winchesters mess up the natural order? It was written what should have happened. What wasn’t written was what would the world be like if it didn’t?
If I understand Raphael and Cass right if someone or something would free Michael and Lucifer from the cage the Apocalypse would continue right where it stopped with the fight between Michael and Lucifer. Any other scenario would be a little complicated, for example bringing back Lilith would be impossible (ok in Supernatural nothing is impossible 🙂 ). Then Michael and Lucifer would need vessels again which would lead to the well known problem that their vessels don’t cooperate. But angels usually don’t count in years, they count more in decades or centuries. Which brings me into fan fiction territory because the bloodline of the Winchesters would have to continue (daddy Dean and daddy Sam). This probably goes too far here but that could be a story line for season 10.
So what do you think? What would happen if Castiel fails and Raphael restarts the apocalypse as written? Is what happening now just an alternative form to the world ending?
I’ve been mulling over the idea of how the apocalypse restarting would work. Sam and Dean are still the true vessels, but I wonder if the fact that Sam said “Yes” once means he’s given consent for life? So if Lucifer were to be freed again, he could take up residence in Sam’s skin with no fuss this time around. That would sure make the threat of Raphael winning greater to the boys.
Re: Bringing Lilith back, I’ve pondered demons dying (whether by the knife, the Colt, burning their bones, or Sam using his powers to kill) potentially sending them to Purgatory; if so, then Eve opening the door for her creepy crawlies to overrun the Earth could also unleash a lot of old foes, including Lilith (and Ruby and Azazel and Alastair for starters)… Then again, if the seals needed to be re-opened, wouldn’t there have to be another righteous man to spill blood in Hell? But if this were decades or centuries into the future…
It’s all very interesting to think about, anyway.
Dean said yes once to Heaven in WTLB but was still able to sa “No” to Michael. I guess Sam would have to say “Yes” agin, but would be Luci interested in a vessel that betrayed him?!
Where do dead demons go? We don´t know for sure. Purgatory is a good guess but hell as well. Purgatory is for monsters and Hell for the demons.
I feel that both Dean and Sam have said yes. Sam’s overtly, but Dean when he was in the beautiful room. Dean said yes, Michael was shaking the room and then Dean killed Zach. Next thing they are escaping so Michael arrives and only Adam is left so he takes him.
Still, Dean said yes. Michael’s mistake was being too arrogant to show up quickly enough.
I do think Raphael plans to open the cage to let his brothers out so the apocalypse will continue. It’s almost like we are in the eye of the storm of armegedon. It’s not over yet. It will never be over until Raphael’s type are defeated.
What I question is Cas’ loyality to maintaining a no apocalyptic world . Is it really that loyal to humanity?
Do you think Dean was absolutly serius about the “YES”. I think it was a trick.
I think Cass was safed by God because he stayed loyal to Human/Winchesters. Cass rebelled because he felt betrayed by Zack and the Archangle. He tryed to stay loyal to God and lost his faith when God refused to stop the Apocalypse. Cass sad to Dean in the end of Swan Song that God helped. And he thinks maybe God gave he the order to restore a new order in Heaven? So his loyalty would be with humanity because he thinks thats what God wants.
An issue on which I’ve spent a lot of thought is angels’ and demons’ “death”.
We, as mortals and “incarnated”, i.e. made of “flesh” and “spirit” bounded toghether (according to the Christian theology, that not only profess an afterlife, but also body’s resurrection at the end of time), experience death as the severance of said flesh and spirit, so the flesh is returned to the earth and the spirit goes in the Great Beyond (Heaven, Hell or Purgatory), only to be reunited with the body for the Last Judgemnt.
In SPN-verse we have learned that Purgatory is in fact for monster’s souls (which monsters, anyway? a human turned in a werewolf or a vampire still has a human soul or his soul is turned as well?), so we’re left with Heaven and Hell as only destinations for human souls.
But. Angels and demons are NOT “incarnated”. They might need bodies as vessels to interact with humans and with the material world, but in their true form they are just spirits. Appearing to mortals’ eyes like black smoke or white light, but still spirits. So, when they are “killed”, it shouldn’t be just the vessel or the host, otherwise it wouldn’t be a so “final” act: it must be the spirit itself being destroyed.
But when you destroy a “spirit”, because it is just spirit, without flesh, there is nowhere it can be sent, since death as severance between flesh and spirit is just for mortal and incarnated beings. A spirit’s “death” so must be a real, total “annihilation” (a frightening thought): that spirit (angel or demon) is canceled from the Universe, can’t be found nor in Heaven or Hell or Purgatory or Fairyland. So it shouldn’t ever come back, there should be no way to make it come back: Azazel, Alastair, Lilith, Uriel, Zachariah, Gabriel are gone forever. 🙁
I have doubts about ghosts: burning their bones they are just resent where they should have been (i.e. Heaven or Hell) and there confinated? Or are they really “destroyed”? So burning Crowley’s bones destroyed him (i.e. his spirit, his demonic essence) or just resent and confinated him (i.e. his “ghost”) in Hell?
I didn´t want to think about “annihilation”. That was too frightening. I think that maybe the Angels going to a place in Heaven they can´t leave and Deamons have to stay forever in Hell without the chance returning to earth and posessing someone.
Hi Jume
There are some churches they belief that the apocalypse started when Jesus died. So the idea of a very long terme apocalypse is quite known.
Yes the New Apostolic Church for example.
Great article, raises some interesting points.
As I understood it, with Sam/Lucifer and Adam/Michael ending in the cage somewhere in hell the apocalypse was put on hold and as long as Lucifer does not walk the earth again, it shall remain so.
We better keep Sammy away from demon blood and hot demon chicks, just to be sure, the cage stays shut. 😛 I’m just saying.
So if Raphael would end up winning that civil war in heaven, he would free Lucifer and the apocalypse would take it’s “natural” course of action.
Paradise for the “dicks with wings” and all humans turned to ashes for good. End of story.
So lets hope the cage stays shut and Castiel can use all those biblical weapons to his advantage and put Raphael in a place where he can’t raise armies again. Killing him would be the best option, but I guess this won’t be that easy.
Thanks for starting this discussion Junkerin, see you at serienjunkies.
Sweeney