Supernatural 8.23, “Sacrifice”: It Was Always God’s Intention, The Ultimate Sacrifice
8.23 Sacrifice: It Was Always God’s Intention, The Ultimate Sacrifice
Metatron’s Heaven:
Exile angels for revenge.
Closing Hell is death.
Commentary and Meta Analysis
My reaction to this episode was mixed. On the one hand, the performances, direction, and technical production aspects were absolutely stellar, and it filled my eyes and broke my heart in good ways. On the other, I had serious issues with aspects of the story, especially the divine metaphysics of falling angels, and it took a couple of viewings for me to get comfortable with the dialogue concerning Sam’s confession to Dean and Dean’s response. In this discussion, I’m going to address Metatron’s expulsion of the angels and the emotional situation between the brothers.
Expel All Angels From Heaven, Just As God Cast Out Lucifer
The major aspect of this story that absolutely didn’t work for me was Metatron implementing a spell using Castiel’s stolen grace and the elements of the spell begun by the killing of the Nephilim and the harvest of the cupid’s bow to cast the rest of the angels out of Heaven to dwell instead on Earth. Admittedly, the visual effect of thousands of angels falling, wings aflame, in a veritable meteor shower through the night Earth sky was spectacular – but the entire concept was also awkward in the metaphysical extreme and took me right out of the moment.
Metatron’s plan harked back to story decisions Kripke made in Heaven And Hell. I called those decisions stupid then, and I still think they’re stupid now. I had problems then with an angel’s grace being separable from the angel and with an angel seen falling from Heaven literally as a meteor through Earth’s sky. Now I have even more problems, because from all we know, angels don’t have human-style bodies of their own, so what bodies will they wear on Earth; will they be born into human babies, like Anna, or assume the bodies of the last vessels they inhabited? And if Castiel now lacks his angelic grace and is mortal, essentially human, where is the soul of Jimmy Novak, the human who owns the body Castiel wears – and where are the souls of any other human vessels who may now embody angels? And why would Metatron have believed that Castiel would be considered to have a human soul slated to wind up in Heaven after death, to come tell him stories? None of that made any sense to me based on everything that went before, and I hope the writers bend some thought to providing answers.
We have always seen angels in Heaven as on Earth wearing human guises, but as Zachariah explained back in Dark Side Of The Moon, that was simply due to the peceptual limitations of our human consciousness. I’ll never forget that Kurt Fuller’s favorite line as Zachariah was In Heaven, I have six wings and four faces, one of whom is a lion. You see this (the Kurt Fuller/Zachariah body) because you’re – limited. In Family Matters, Castiel told Samuel Campbell that his true form was approximately the size of the Chrysler Building, and in The Third Man, he said that he had spent the last year as a “multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent” – ergo, not wearing a physical body of any kind. Seeing all those angels in this episode falling from Heaven in human bodies and being severed from burning wings in the process just made me shake my head. That was of a piece with my inability to tolerate the totally idiotic idea in As Time Goes By that Dean kept a numbered stash of Castiel’s shed wing-feathers in the Impala’s trunk and the Men of Letters had similar stashes in their clubhouse and in the bunker to use in time travel spells. Just – no. Dumb ideas.
According to all the lore we have, angels and humans were separate and distinct creations. So said the bible and all we learned from Lucifer in The End and from Castiel in It’s The Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester and The Man Who Would Be King, among other episodes. As Father Reyolds noted back in Houses Of The Holy, men cannot be angels; I would submit that angels similarly cannot be men (or women). In Lazarus Rising, The Rapture, Sympathy For The Devil, Free To Be You And Me,Point Of No Return, and other episodes, we learned angels borrowed human vessels to physically walk the Earth, particularly to be able to communicate with humans who couldn’t perceive them in their true form, and that they could not possess a vessel without the explicit consent of the human owning the body. That applied to fallen Lucifer as much as to any other angel. An angel in Heaven had no need of a human vessel; Castiel being hauled back to Heaven for re-education in his own angelic form in The Rapture was what allowed us to actually meet Jimmy, and we saw that Raphael in Free To Be You And Me had simply abandoned his vessel when he had no immediate need of it, taking back Donnie’s body only when summoned to it. Talking with Crowley in The Man Who Would Be King, Castiel noted that angels didn’t have souls, and thus couldn’t be drawn into crossroads-style deals. We saw how angels could use the power of human souls to magnify their own strength, but an angel’s own essence appeared to be different. Apart from Castiel’s perverse resurrections, which were unique, we were given no indication that angels had any destination after death, unlike humans who went to Heaven or Hell, or monsters who went to Purgatory. When killed, they simply – died.
Given all that, I’m troubled by the idea that a simple spell done by a rogue angel could transform angels into mortals in human bodies, evidently with souls bound for Heaven or Hell upon death. And I wonder whether they will still know who and what they are, as Lucifer did following his expulsion, or if the spell Metatron used to cast them out would have stripped away their angel memories. Since Metatron dealt with Castiel separately, sending him on his way as an individual before he worked his spell on all the other angels, it’s distinctly possible that Castiel’s situation may be different from that of every other angel; for example, if Metatron’s expulsion spell tampered with memory, Castiel might be the only one to remember being an angel. And strictly from a show perspective, I don’t for a moment believe Castiel will have lost his memory; they did that once already in The Born-Again Identity, so they won’t plow the same furrow again.
I have to wonder what impact Metatron’s actions will have on both Heaven and Earth. I’m guessing there will be enough accumulating negatives on both fronts to encourage the brothers and Kevin to explore the angel tablet for ways to counter Metatron and restore angels to at least some aspects of their proper, non-Earthly place in God’s scheme of things. In particular, if Metatron expelled every angel but himself, I wonder whether the virtual machinery of Heaven may start to break down for lack of routine angelic maintenance and if that may let us see certain human souls again … that wouldn’t be any sillier than some of the other things already going on. The angel tablet might even speak to how other angels who died might be brought back as Castiel has been, several times.
If the angels do remember who and what they were, I suspect the factions that existed in Heaven might also appear among angels now on Earth, meaning that competing forces might pursue acquiring the prophet and the angel tablet to be able to restructure Heaven as they see fit. And Hell’s demons will not be idle. What power could they extract from fallen angels? Hell would also have a vested interest in preventing the restoration of the heavenly host, since angelic smiting is one of the few ways a demon could be destroyed.
It Was How Many Times I Let You Down
The heart-to-heart between the brothers in the church was the most deeply moving moment of the episode, but I’ll confess, it took me a couple of viewings and a number of hours of thinking to fully appreciate it. Before you throw eggs and rotten tomatoes, let me explain – and let me start by saying Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles knocked it out of the park on their performances and I love them unreservedly for it, although I have a few choice words for Jeremy Carver’s oddly clumsy dialogue from Dean to set up the situation.
The real curse of the Winchesters isn’t that they’re hunters. It isn’t that their mother was killed or that Sam was dosed with demon blood when he was six months old. It isn’t that they were deliberately designed and shaped to serve a destiny engineered by rebellious angels. It isn’t that they’ve lost pretty much everyone they’ve ever loved. It isn’t that they’ve both been to Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, and back again. It isn’t that they feel responsible for everyone else and punish themselves whenever they fail to save someone. It isn’t any of those story-hero-only kinds of things.
The real curse of the Winchesters is that they keep having to relearn the same basic lessons about themselves and each other over and over again, precisely because each is the one person most essential to the other and thus the greatest source of personal insecurity.
Since I started writing about the show at the beginning of season two, I’ve done more analytical pieces on the relationship between the brothers than on any other single topic. If you’ve got a LOT of hours (say, during months and months of Hellatus), you can check out all my past couch sessions with the Winchesters through the following links, both the meta only pieces, and the myriad episode commentaries with meta incorporated, like this one. In every season, multiple articles have looked specifically at how Sam and Dean both perceive and disastrously misperceive each other, and what happens when they finally realize what they’ve been seeing wrongly or simply not seeing at all. And no matter how many times they relearn their most basic truths – that Sam is the heart, soul, center, and end of Dean’s universe, and that Dean is the one essential person Sam most needs to have believe in and approve of him to affirm his own value – they keep doubting themselves and each other time and time again in every new situation, saying thoughtless, sometimes angry, often hurtful things that drive them apart, and then having to relearn the same lesson of exactly what they mean to each other. They did it again in this episode. They make me want to scream in frustration, shake them, and smack them upside the head for being such blind, repetitive idiots about each other, especially when I can see the clumsy setup happening from a mile away (and sorry, Jeremy Carver, but Dean’s confession and chaperone lines here just pinged way too obviously on the deliberately thoughtless meter, given how carefully supportive he’d been of Sam lately).
But you know something? I realized I’m guilty of making the same repeated stupid mistakes as Sam and Dean, if on a less world- and family-shattering basis. I think most people are. And I think that is in part why the brothers speak so strongly to us; we see ourselves in their mistakes, and we want to see ourselves in their salvation, too.
Not seeing it? Let me share something personal.
I have two older sisters. All of us are close, albeit not remotely as codependent as Sam and Dean. My middle sister is a registered nurse who spent almost 20 years in ER and critical care nursing, and then transitioned into IT, designing computer software for medical records and diagnostic information. She’s brilliant, incisive, quick to make and implement decisions and judgments, and impatient with people who don’t see or respond to situations as quickly, directly, and competently as she does. She impresses the crap out of me. When our mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s, my sister kept her home and took care of her, first going part-time and then retiring from her own job when mom’s condition deteriorated to the need for full-time care.
I love my middle sister to death and I know that she loves me, but we’re very different people. We’re both intelligent, independent, and well educated, but personality-wise, we’re light-years apart. Where she does her factual research and then makes snap judgments, I step back and consider things in depth from multiple angles, more interested in the process than the outcome. My sister always wants anyone she’s with to make a quick, firm decision and act on it; unless it’s a topic I’m passionate about, I prefer to cruise and seek harmony, feeling out and going with the group desire rather than imposing my own. I’m a talker and a singer; she works in silence with no background music. Her mindset is mechanical and precise, given to practical engineering solutions; mine is philosophical and psychological, given to theory and exploration. She’s fierce about family and always lived close to our parents; I moved 900 miles away from home to go to law school when I was 19, and although I always remained in very close and loving touch with home base, I’ve lived quite happily alone in my remote outpost ever since.
Because we’re both so close and yet so far away, we can push each others’ buttons with an accuracy no one else on the planet could match. With a cutting word, a withering look, or an exasperated sigh, my sister has the unerring ability to make me feel stupid, worthless, and clumsy. In turn, I can piss her off just by humming absently or by rolling my eyes, or by not saying something when she expects me to, which she interprets as intentional passive aggression.
Sound familiar?
Now let me add that my sister has been part of my life for all of my almost 57 years, and yet I still have to remind myself multiple times a year that when she says something I take amiss, eliciting my reaction wasn’t her intent; ninety-nine times out of a hundred, it simply wouldn’t have occurred to her that I would have taken her comment to heart and been hurt by it. And while I love seeing her and always enjoy time spent with her, by the end of a visit, I’m relieved to leave because I can shed the strain of feeling that I always have to be quiet, competent, busy, and decisive to live up to her expectations for me when she’s around.
My sister can definitely be a Dean, and I can give Sam a run for his emo title and insecurity. I’ve got 20-plus years on the Winchesters. If I still haven’t figured out the right sibling balance to avoid conflict and always dwell secure in my absolute knowledge of my sister’s ever-present love, why should I expect the brothers to have done better in less time and under much greater stress, hmm?
Once I sorted all that out, I was able to settle in and thoroughly appreciate the scene, especially because it took the brothers another very important step on their road to a mature relationship. I rejoiced that Dean’s response to Sam’s accusatory hurt about not being trusted and about his brother turning to others instead of him wasn’t to pull out again his own old “turnabout is fair play” hurt about Sam choosing Ruby over him, or the even older pain about Sam having left his family for college. They’ve had that “who hurt the other more first” fight before, and it’s a no-win scenario. Instead, Dean went straight to the heart with the simple truth that he needed Sam to see and finally, absolutely know there was nothing, past or present, Dean would ever put in front of Sam. No one and nothing could ever be more important to Dean than Sam, and nothing Sam could be or do or say could ever change that. We’ve always seen that, right from the beginning of the series. But I don’t think Dean ever fully undersood until just now that his regard, his approval, is so vital to Sam’s existence and self-image that it’s the one thing Sam has always been most insecure about, despite all the times Dean’s proven his unconditional love.
I believe something that’s complicated that knowledge between the brothers is that they perceive and express things in different ways. Sam is intellectual and verbal; he talks things through to understand and express them, and always has. Words are important to him, and he uses words to shepherd thought and process feelings. Just think of all the times over the years when Sam pushed Dean to talk about things, to share verbally what was he was feeling: John’s death, the fear of going to Hell, what happened in Hell, what happened in Purgatory. Words are also how Sam always expressed his own feelings and fears, and words were always how Sam tried to explain his choices, apologize for his mistakes, and attack when he was angry.
Dean, on the other hand, is sensory and tactile. Words have much less value to him than actions do; he’s not nearly as comfortable with using words to express what’s most important to him. Dean’s deepest apologies tended to come with a trust action attached, such as giving Sam the Impala’s keys and letting him drive. Dean’s love expressed in words tends to come out as a joke; the genuine warmth and truth of it lie in his supportive physical touches and hugs. When he’s been really angry, he’s spoken with his fists instead of his tongue.
I think many times when the brothers were trying to communicate with each other and failing, it’s because they were each giving the other information in the way they themselves best understood it – Sam in words and Dean through touch and action – when that was exactly the wrong way to best reach the other. And when the message each was conveying was different on those two wavelengths – for example, Dean using teasing, disparaging language along with a supportive action, or Sam apologizing verbally but not offering a reinforcing physical action – the brother receiving the message gave more weight to the communication aspect more personally important to him, which was the opposite of the speaker’s intention. So Sam felt more picked on than supported, while Dean felt more betrayed than reassured.
I don’t think the brothers have ever really thought through how and why they so often miscommunicate, but this may have been a start: Dean finally gave Sam very specific, very direct words to emphasize how important Sam is to him, and then followed that up with a fully consistent, fully supportive physical action, bandaging his hand and pulling him into a hug while encouraging him to let go of the trials and the pressure.
I loved it, and Sam heard him, felt him, and tried to comply.
Something else I loved was the way Dean argued that they didn’t have to seal the gates of Hell. Instead of just using emotion, his usual weapon, Dean used words and logic: he gave Sam the rationale that all the new knowledge they had acquired already through the bunker and the quest could give them enough of an edge to make a difference, and the price of going further would simply be too high.
From Salvation on, Dean never accepted Sam’s death as an acceptable price for revenge, no matter how willing Sam would have been to pay it. He would never have traded Sam’s life for anyone else’s. He accepted Sam’s self-sacrificial determination in Swan Song only because Sam insisted he had to fix his own mistake and save the world from Lucifer the only way they could, and Dean, respecting his brother, also had to respect his brother’s mature choice – and with the world apparently ending, Dean fully expected to die at his side, anyway.
This quest to close Hell was something entirely different. While closing Hell and banishing all demons forever could save other people, it wasn’t necessary to save the world the way shutting down the apocalypse had been. When they first undertook it, Sam’s whole purpose was to be able to do enough to make the world safe that he could stop hunting and have a normal life. As he stated so eloquently in Trial And Error, he wanted to do it instead of Dean precisely because he still had hope for a different future for both of them, while Dean saw it only as a worthwhile swan song of his own, something likely to kill him but worth it to leave Sam safe and free. Once Sam started the trials, getting him through them alive became Dean’s new goal. Learning that completing the trials would kill Sam made the price something Dean would never be willing to pay.
The most heartbreaking thing for both Dean and us was to see from Sam’s reaction – So? – that Sam had been so worn down by the trials that he had already lost all his hope and expectation for any end other than his own death, and didn’t even care. The most joyous thing was seeing Sam respond to Dean’s argument and decide that he wanted to live, and wanted to stop.
We won’t learn until next season what effect abandoning the trials will have on Sam. We don’t really know what they were doing to him physically, although I do like the idea he himself put forward about the trials purifying him of whatever the demon blood Azazel fed him when he was six months old had done to his human self. I hope there’s not a backlash; that letting go of the trials will just release the pressure, not snap the pulled-taut rubber band. On this count, waiting for season nine will be torture!
Production Notes
Despite the story issues I’ve noted, I enjoyed this episode a lot and can’t wait to see how the story progresses in season nine. And in terms of all the performances and production values, this was feature film-quality work, and no mistake.
I liked most of Jeremy Carver’s script, apart from the awkwardness in the setup and some of the dialogue between the brothers in the lead-in to their heart-to-heart. The date between Jody Mills and Crowley was inspired. The brothers trapping Crowley with the offer of a deal only to lock him in spell-etched handcuffs from the bunker was sweet, and to have that happen in Bobby’s old junkyard near his derelict Chevelle was almost poetic. Naomi finally realizing how the angels had strayed from their mission and resolving – too late – to begin trying to make things right, even accepting Castiel back into the heavenly host, helped transform her from just a villain to yet another candidate for redemption, and made her loss hurt. Metatron decided to become the author and god of his own story, rewriting Heaven and Earth and becoming an enemy. Crowley’s cleverness in finding a way to call for help only to realize Abaddon intended to take his place as King of Hell was delicious, and clearly set the stage for part of Hell’s story in season nine. Dean managing this time to reach Sam and persuade him to stop as he hadn’t been able to do in Lazarus Rising gave the brothers a fresh place to start from. And while I have many, many issues with the whole thing about angels falling, I have to say that exiling the angels from Heaven to Earth is a true game-changer and opens lots of doors for fresh stories in season nine and beyond. Showing all the apparatus of the bunker reacting to that cosmological change further pointed out that the brothers are still far from understanding all the potential inherent in their Men of Letters legacy. The whole purpose of this script wasn’t to wrap old things up, but to set up a whole new game, and in that, it succeeded.
Phil Sgriccia has been a favorite director of mine for a long time, since the early 1990’s. Of all the Supernatural directors, he’s the one who most integrates music into a scene, and he’s been a key picker of much of the music Supernatural uses; I enjoyed everything here, from Crowley’s ringtone to the demon singing David Bowie’s “Changes.” He’s also crackerjack at shooting action in a way that keeps everything that’s happening perfectly clear. But most of all, I love his signature perspective, including the way he uses extreme crane shots like the ones outside the church, showing the building itself and looking sharply down on the brothers at the end, as well as low shots looking up from the ground into faces – like Nathaniel in Heaven or Crowley talking to his blood radio – or putting a character into the close foreground against a backdrop of distance and sky. Sometimes, his eye reminds me of Kim Manners. In terms of how he directs actors, I thoroughly appreciated the comment Osric Chau tweeted about Phil having gotten him to brighten up Kevin’s “I don’t have any friends” line just enough to keep it from being totally depressing. And shooting down from Kevin’s perspective as all the bunker machinery came to life was amazing.
Serge Ladouceur’s cinematography is always exquisite, but everything he did with the lighting in the church and the night outside was particularly fine in the way the light and shadow played on the faces of Sam, Dean, and Crowley, and showed us Castiel reacting to and realizing what he was seeing as the angels fell. And I love the lighting in the bunker at all times!
Jerry Wanek and his set building and decorating crew worked wonders! The church was a marvel; only two walls and a roof at that gorgeous location, with the interior built on set at the studio. And the bar where cupid’s bow made heart shots was a complete re-do of the often-reused old diner on the backlot, so totally transformed with a magnificent hardwood bar – well, with what at least looks like a magnificent hardwood bar! – and bar fittings to match that I almost didn’t recognize it. And since this is my last chance to do it this season, I have to contiue to applaud the Men of Letters bunker set, which is an incredible piece of work I hope we get to enjoy for a goodly time to come.
The visual effects crew has been doing amazing work all season, but this episode was in a class by itself. The angelic meteor shower was breathtaking, exquisitely beautiful and horrible all at once, and epic in scope. Abaddon burning and smoking out would have been the certerpiece effect in any other episode; here, it was just one small but magnificent piece of the whole. Crowley’s tiny blood radio was a lovely callback to past seasons, as was Abaddon breaking the floor to break the devil’s trap around Crowley. Sam’s glowing arms waxed and dimmed as the end of the trial drew closer, but never detracted from the emotion of Jared’s scenes with Mark and Jensen. The bunker map board coming to life was a great visual on its own, but was a particularly effective way to tell the big-picture story by displaying the global nature of the expulsion of the angels.
The performances throughout the episode were superb. It was a delight to see Kim Rhodes essaying Jody Mills again, and she brought both the funny and the genuine to Jody venturing into the dating world with exactly the wrong guy. I have no doubt whatsoever that Dean’s “I surrender” came in time to save her life – but I can only imagine Jody shaking her head afterward over what supernatural ploys have done to her relationships! Amanda Tapping has walked a fine line this season making Naomi someone to fear while still hinting to there being more going on that we could see on the surface. Her reaction here, when Naomi realized Metatron’s duplicity but also came to see the flaws in what she had done, serving the archangels, made her – while not entirely sympathetic – someone whose actions and motives made sense enough to appreciate. While we definitely haven’t seen the last of Abaddon, I will miss Alaina Huffman, who gave the demon presence and snark to stand up to Crowley. I will look forward to seeing more of Curtis Armstrong’s Metatron as the Heaven storyline continues. I’m content that my limited human consciousness needs “Marv” as a comprehensible avatar, because Armstrong brings so many layers to Metatron.
Osric Chau makes me feel great sympathy for Kevin. He’s changed so very much since we first met him; that’s got to be a treat for an actor to play, and it shows. After Castiel forced Kevin back to work on the angel tablet and repeated the adage that he was stuck being a prophet until he died, it seemed pretty apparent to me that Kevin was planning on doing a runner at the end, when we saw him heading out of the bunker wearing his backpack; I would bet he intended to go undercover on his own again, escaping before the Winchesters returned and using hex bags to hide from both demons and angels. I wonder if the sheer immensity of what he saw blooming on the map board as the alarms shrieked may have changed his mind; I hope so, because the Winchesters are going to need Kevin!
Jensen Ackles and Misha Collins were classic. While I wished Castiel could finally escape his curse of always trusting the wrong being, I was glad he finally went to Dean for help and even listened to him, at least about the Cupid – even if he still failed to trust Dean’s instincts in the end and insisted on returning to Heaven. Misha continued to rock Castiel’s peculiar mix of innocence, naivete, conviction, and determination, from asking Metatron what God was like through flatly informing Kevin that he was stuck with being a prophet – well, until he died and the next one came on line, and Misha’s delivery of that made me laugh out loud – and finally announced that he was going to fix Heaven. I suspect Castiel’s history of crucial mistakes will continue to complicate his future with the Winchesters. Jensen conveyed precisely how torn Dean was between leaving Sam and responding to Castiel’s plea for help, and when Dean returned to save Sam, the scenes between Jensen and Jared were pure brother magic.
I still have major issues with the whole “curing a demon” thing – see my comments on Clip Show – but Crowley’s gradual transformation from King of Hell to an almost-human man wondering where to start to make amends was an acting tour de force on the part of Mark Sheppard. And Mark, in turn, brought out the absolute best in my highest award winner of the night, Jared Padalecki. Jared was sublime, covering every beat of Sam’s determination, commitment, uncertainty, confusion, rededication, love, loss, relief, and pain. Genre shows – particularly a horror gem on the CW – aren’t recognized by Hollywood awards, but Jared’s performance here was worthy, and then some.
I will point out a couple things. For one, the completion of each of the two previous trials required the recitation of the Enochian words of the spell Kevin identified before Sam experienced the physical effects. Even after completing the actions called for in the earlier trials – killing the hellhound nad bathing in its blood in Trial And Error, and rescuing an innocent soul from Hell and conveying it to Heaven in Taxi Driver – it wasn’t until after Sam recited the spell each time that he was hit with the light and the pain demonstrating his didication to the trials. Sam’s arms glowing here after each dose he delivered to Crowley was something different, perhaps because he was coming so much closer to the end. But I have to wonder: could Sam have taken the last step in curing Crowley, having Crowley drink blood from the cut on his palm, without actually having completed the trials and thus triggered his own death? If the trial wasn’t complete until the Enochian dedication words – which were significantly different from the cleansing exorcism – were spoken, wouldn’t it have been reasonable to assume that, so long as Sam didn’t take the final step of speaking the Enochian spell, the trial wouldn’t have been complete?
And that leads me to the second thing. From all we understand, Crowley’s “demon cure” was left incomplete; he’d been dosed with Sam’s purified human blood to the point where he was actively repentant, but although Sam had spoken the words of the curative exorcism, he didn’t clap his bleeding hand over Crowley’s mouth to deliver the last oral dose. So: when season nine begins, what will Crowley’s status be? Will Sam’s purified blood dosing wear off to leave Crowley still the snarky demon King of Hell, with even more reason to resent the Winchesters knowing his weaknesses and holding him prisoner, or will Crowley still be more human than demon and interested in seeking redemption? How quickly will Abaddon move to displace Crowley’s control over Hell, and would the Winchesters even contemplate supporting the devil they know over the knight of Hell, if Crowley either reverts to being the evil we’ve always known or maintains that, in his partially redeemed state, he would be the lesser and therefore better evil? The possibilities boggle the mind.
I was intrigued by Metatron’s choice of quote, when he challenged Naomi and then dismissed her as not much of a reader. More than Metatron’s decision or Naomi’s situation in Heaven, it spoke to me of being in fandom, but to explain that, I need to provide more of the source than the single sentence Metatron quoted.
The line in question – Of the blessings set before you make your choice, and be content is part of a longer speech from a character in The History of Rasselas, a fable about searching for happiness, by Samuel Johnson.
“Every hour,” answered the Princess, “confirms my prejudice in favour of the position so often uttered by the mouth of Imlac, that ‘Nature sets her gifts on the right hand and on the left.’ Those conditions which flatter hope and attract desire are so constituted that as we approach one we recede from another. There are goods so opposed that we cannot seize both, but by too much prudence may pass between them at too great a distance to reach either. This is often the fate of long consideration; he does nothing who endeavours to do more than is allowed to humanity. Flatter not yourself with contrarieties of pleasure. Of the blessings set before you make your choice, and be content. No man can taste the fruits of autumn while he is delighting his scent with the flowers of the spring; no man can at the same time fill his cup from the source and from the mouth of the Nile.”
Basically, the Princess’s message was, we can’t have it all; we need to choose our joys. If we try to seize everything, we may miss it all; if we debate too long which choice to make, we may accomplish nothing and even lose the opportunity to be happy. To have one good thing, we may need to give up another – rather like the Winchesters having to choose between closing the gates of Hell or having Sam remain alive.
And here’s my point. You’ve doubtless noticed my joy in this episode was not unalloyed. I have issues with the metaphysics of falling angels and with the idea of curing a demon by making it artificially feel remorse though injections of human blood. I’ve had criticisms of other episodes in this season, and throughout the run of the series.
But you know something? My delight in this show goes beyond my criticisms of the specific details that didn’t work for me in a story or a season. I’m not concerned with having everything the way I want it to be. What makes me happy is having Supernatural itself: the story of two brothers who love each other and build a family of much more than blood, for whom saving people is the family business. What makes me happy is the passion and love of all the people behind the show who consistently make it more than an hour of entertainment; the quality it has that makes me think and write about it for long hours after an episode – or a season – has come to an end. What makes me happy are all the people I share my passion with, and the way they give it back to me.
Those are the blessings set before me, and with them, I’m content.
But really impatient for season nine.
Thanks so much for this review. I too loved this Season Finale and I am willing to let go of those things that make me say “huh?”. Having said that, the whole angels in meat suits while in heaven has pretty much been a film thing. How does one show giant blobs of light talking amongst themselves? Or four-headed winged beasts? I had the same issue with Nick/Lucifer last season, why would lucifer choose to torture Sam in a Nick suit when a Dean suit would have been the greatest torture. But I can deal and I do love MP. But this started in season 6 with the angels in suits in heaven so I have to give in to that as part of “how do we make this work?”.
Still, even with the questions of how angels are expelled from heaven and what damage they will do on earth, I loved loved loved this episode. With all that made me say “huh?” I am so full of hope and anxiety for season 9.
Thanks for commenting! Glad you enjoyed – and glad you loved the episode!
Yeah, the practical film aspect of needing actors to portray angels in a way that makes visual sense to us has been the driving force behind how we see Heaven, with angels appearing human in costumes that suggest bureaucracy and authority. Unfortunately, that convention makes it all too easy to forget that angels aren’t human and don’t actually look human. Oops! But I’ll roll … 🙂
I absolutely love your assessment of our Favorite Broment. I’ve been a reader of your reviews for a long time and you never fail to help me see things in the correct perspective. I now appreciate the moment still more, if possible.
As a long-time fan, I’m so relieved that the issue about which things are the most important was finally put on the table between the boys. I hope they learned the lesson and that season 9 doesn’t let us down on that ground.
Thank you very much! Glad you enjoyed!
I was delighted to see the brothers being so straight-up with each other, and I also hope we’ll see more of that as the story goes forward. That said, I do expect we’ll still see mistakes and backsliding sometimes; if I still do it with my sis, despite knowing better (and despite having applied a lot of my psych studies to myself!), I can’t fault the Winchesters for their propensity to be similarly fallibly human! *wry grin* Just so long as they catch themselves when they do it, before they carry it too far …
That was so beautiful how you drew from your own sibling experience to understand the humanness of the boys and their struggle to believe in and support their brother. I think that is one the strongest things that this show has going for it is the perfect way each viewer sees themselves in these two brothers. The dialog and situations that they find themselves in most of us have lived through or are currently living through (of course not in such a grand and world altering way). We all struggle to belong and to want assurance from the ones that mean the most to us.
Thanks Bardicvoice for your wonderful review. Week in and week out these two brothers and their flawed but beautiful relationship keep bringing me back. I can growl and complain about production or writing choices I didn’t like but at the end of the day, if there is a Winchester brother on my TV screen I am a happy girl.
Thanks very much! And I agree with you … 🙂
I love your last paragraph and do agree and relate to it entirely.
I love this show so very much that questions that arise in my thoughts, such as the angels and their meat suits, fall by the way when they mess with my head. It is the brothers who I love and care about, always was, always will be. Love their flaws and humanity, especially Dean, who never was in any way super-human, such as demon blooded when a baby. Poor Sammy! I really hope his blood has been purified and he can kiss the demon blood stuff goodbye. There should be enough to occupy their time next season without that. Our two very human heroes, saving people and hunting things! 😛
By the way, we never did see angel wings on Naomi when she died. Do you think that was an omission by accident or on purpose? Or was it because she was killed in heaven and not on earth? She was an angel, but we saw her in a meat suit, didn’t we? Or is that just our interpretation? 😐
Hope you have some essays for us during the hellatus. 😉
Thanks, Bevie!
About Naomi and the angel wings; the show simply hasn’t used the wing-ashes on up close and personal dead angels lately; we didn’t see them when Balthazar died, for example. We have seen them before on angels slain in Heaven – that iconic image from [i]Meet The New Boss[/i] of dozens of dead angels lying on the grass in Castiel’s preferred eternal Tuesday Heaven is unforgettable – but I don’t know why the scorched wing imprints haven’t been consistently used. A question for the VFX team!
I don’t think angels wear vessels in Heaven, but we always see them in human form because (a) we’re human and limited in our perception, and (b) this is a TV show using human actors to portray non-human beings. 🙂
I will definitely have meta pieces going up during hellatus. Stay tuned!
This is a lovely review! I agree with so much of it. I still have my reservations about the bromoment, though not with the performances–Jared and Jensen were superb.
My issue is that Dean’s part of the conversation was to meet Sam’s needs, but his own were not addressed, even though his opened the season. As you say, Sam needs Dean to believe in him and priorize him and I think that’s because Dean is mother, father and brother rolled into one for Sam and Dean knows the full story about the demon blood and can still see Sam as a righteous man. Sam needs to believe he can remake his destiny to be that.
But Dean has needs too, and the way he loves Sam, putting him number one, is an expression of that. He will always love Sam, as a parent will always love a child, but he needs something of his own from the relationship, too. He needs to know Sam values him for who he is, that their life together has meaning, that Sam would find a life without him leaves an open wound.
And the first part of this season hurt Dean deeply when Sam appeared to sending a different message. Sam did not put Dean number one because he sees a life away from the supernatural as number one. It didn’t mean he didn’t love Dean, but he could walk away. Dean didn’t understand, but he did eventually accept that Sam views family differently than he does, as he said in Dark Side of the Moon. Despite his hurt, he accepts Sam has the right to define his own priorities and needs, and he stops guilt tripping Sam about Amelia and the decision Sam needs to make.
I think Jeremy Carver viewed Sam’s willingness to make a new life without needing to find his brother as a sign of maturity and Dean’s willingness to accept that as another sign of maturity.
However, at the same time, because the brother bond fuels Supernatural, he still needs Dean to put Sam number one. Which is a story decision I love and agree with, but not if it comes without a sense that Sam does the same for Dean. And what we got in the finale was a sense of what Sam needs from Dean, but not, at least to me, a sense from Sam that he knows Dean needs to feel number with him, that Sam isn’t just hunting with his brother because he’s been dragged back by circumstances.
I think it was a mistake not to link Sam’s confession of how much he needs Dean’s approval with an explanation of his mind set when he didn’t look for him. That would have brought the brothers’ emotional story this year full circle, without fans having to provide their own head canon to make it work.
I’ve seen so many analyses from fans, and good ones, that base Sam’s decision on an emotional collapse, an inability to function. But Carver’s head canon does not appear to match that when he talks about Sam’s decision. He describes Sam as having matured and his decision is an expression of Sam needing that different life.
The writing decision to have Sam and Amelia collapse under the weight of an outside force–Don (a ridiculous plot element)–rather than the underpinnings of what brought them together, supports Carver’s words to me.
Sam’s vision of his “real” life did not include Dean as a necessary element in the first half of the season (he tells Dean to remake his happiness equation so it’s more in line with Sam’s) and even after the finale, I still don’t see what Sam offered to Dean in terms of that happiness equation other than he needs to be the centre of Dean’s world. It’s an understandable dynamic from a child’s perspective, but Sam is not a child and supposedly this season was about maturing.
It’s possible we’ll get more next season that deals more with what Dean needs to hear from Sam, so his place in the story is more than support. But I think the exploration this year wasn’t as well rounded as it needed to be. I think Dean needs to know his love for his brother doesn’t have to include acting against his own core values to prove to Sam he is loved. Sam’s ultimatum about Benny was unfair and grounded in his own insecurities and hurt Dean deeply. He now has shame about that friendship.
I’m still very much onboard this story. I care about and believe in these two boys, so I haven’t reached a tipping point. But I do think Carver has to look at the underpinnings of what he’s setting up as much with Sam and Dean as with angel lore.
Jerry! What you say is noble and right, but where is the justice on Earth? Where is the harmony in human interrelations? While the one is always more of a kisser (or hugger for that point), the other is that who allows to be kissed. The needs of the one will always prioritize over those of the other. Such is life and its ways, and I think, Dean is content with his position of a big brother and willingly accepts the duties and pains of this job. (And the advantages it gets – Dean has a right to be bossy!:-) More than that – Dean is happy having his brother at his side, happier than Sam, I think. He has somebody to care. If you asked him about his needs what do you think he would say?
Hi Novi! I agree that relationships are not static and power differentials change. However, I also think that a relationship in which one party’s needs are not on the table is not one that is in good shape, older sibling or not. My issue is in not ending the episode feeling like the boys had cleared up the issues causing them pain this season, but rather that Sam had. And since Dean’s issues opened the season, they needed some resolution, too.
What would Dean say? I think Dean does not do well with words, as BardicVoice said, but his actions this season would say he needs to know Sam wants him in his life and that he values what they have. He needs to know if he disappears again, Sam would look for him, even if Amelia turns up, newly single. He needs to know that he can have expectations of this relationship, too.
Dean already showed Sam in Dark Side of the Moon how hurt he was that Sam views family differently than he does. He showed this season again how hurt he was that Sam could priorize having a civilian life over finding out what happened to Dean. That he didn’t NEED to know.
I expect Dean to show Sam in the future how hurt he was at having to cut Benny loose when Benny asked him for the simple favour of making contact, of reminding Benny he has one friend in his lonely walk between worlds. Given one of Dean’s core values is loyalty, how does it feel to know when he asked Benny to allow himself to be killed, Benny said yes, and when Benny asked him to have a coffee with him, Dean said no? I think it does matter to Dean what he’s required to do to show Sam he’s number one.
And if he isn’t allowed to have expectations of his own, then the show is portraying this relationship as unhealthy in a way I think goes against the core of Supernatural. These two I think should ground each other in a way no one else can. So Dean’s hurt in the beginning of the season needs to be addressed, because what he needs to know is this relationship is not as one sided as he’s always been afraid it is, right from season one. He now knows Sam looks to him for approval, but I really don’t see where he knows what he can look to Sam for.
I absolutely loved Jared’s acting in the Sam/Dean scene and I also believe that he needs to know Dean loves him best and believes in him, so I loved what was onscreen. But I also noticed what was not onscreen in the finale to the season, and it made the emotional arc between the boys not as satisfying as it should have been for me.
Your use of Benny sums up why I find it hard to embrace Dean’s friendships in how they are used and reflected on Sam.
I cannot answer wether in that scene Dean’s feelings should of been heard maybe the show was going for Dean’s feelings at the begining and Sam’s at the end? I dont know.That scene revealed Sams damage wether it is seen as shaming or blaming or both where Dean is concerned is up to the individual I suppose . I dont know if having a scene like that is negating Dean and his pov?. Maybe Jeremy Carver felt Sam needed the scene more .
Hi Sharon, no offense taken. I truly did like what the scene showed us about Sam. We needed his POV desperately all season and when we got it, it felt exactly right that Sam needs to know Dean puts him first and has never felt the times he sees Sam as letting him down as impacting his love for Sam. Sam needs Dean to believe in him because he’s been shaped for something so dark that has felt at times inevitable–he needs to know Dean can see all of that and know Sam can be the person he wants to be. It helps ground him.
So as far as the scene went, I loved it. I just think that the season ended without giving Dean any resolution on what he was hurt by and needs to know, and that too was a strong theme this season.
I think we may have miscommunication, though, if you think I feel Sam was shaming Dean in what he said. I don’t. I think what he didn’t do was connect his need for Dean to what his thinking was when he didn’t look for Dean–it’s all tied together in my head canon, but by the finale it shouldn’t be head canon when it was a major theme for half a season.
And I don’t think it had to necessarily be in this scene, because it was not constructed to allow a discussion–Dean’s talking Sam down off a ledge–but somewhere Sam needed to deal with what was driving his feelings about Benny with an eye to how that impacted Dean. In the scene we got, Dean has to deal with how his friendships combined with needling comments impacted Sam. If there was more to come in the season, I would be hoping for a follow up scene. But there’s not. These arcs are over in terms of getting a lot of exploration.
Gerry – very nicely put. I feel the same way and appreciate your insight here.
Great anaylsis, Bardicvoice.
I have had a lot of issues with the angel storyline, but since my attachment to the show is through the brother bond, I tend to ignore most of what bothers me there.
I agree, though, their portrayal as simple bureaucrats – or mindless warriors – is beginning to be annoying.
[quote]
However, at the same time, because the brother bond fuels Supernatural, he still needs Dean to put Sam number one. Which is a story decision I love and agree with, but not if it comes without a sense that Sam does the same for Dean. And what we got in the finale was a sense of what Sam needs from Dean, but not, at least to me, a sense from Sam that he knows Dean needs to feel number with him, that Sam isn’t just hunting with his brother because he’s been dragged back by circumstances.
I think it was a mistake not to link Sam’s confession of how much he needs Dean’s approval with an explanation of his mind set when he didn’t look for him. That would have brought the brothers’ emotional story this year full circle, without fans having to provide their own head canon to make it work.
[/quote]
I’ll agree with this part of your analysis for sure, Gerry. There is most definitely need for further communication between the boys, and it is a mistake, imo, to leave this much-needed discussion – addressing a really fundamental change in their relationship – for another season. Assuming they ever address it at all.
I have a lot of issues with the first half of the season, (I know, you’ve heard it all before 😕 – sorry!) but I agree that they still have not completely explained the whole thing. Certainly not to my satisfaction. And I can’t imagine that Dean will be ready to let this go, either, since it really strikes to the core of who he is, as well. I certainly felt, at least at the beginning of the season, that their relationship had become one-sided. That was a disservice to both characters, imo, and it has not yet been fully resolved.
I haven’t read all the comments here, so excuse me, please if this is redundant.
But the brothers relationship as always been one -sided . There never really has been a equality there . We have always seen how far Dean is prepared to go for Sam in graphic detail . They wouldnt of dreamed of not having Dean look for Sam and it wouldnt of been a discussion that the fandom would of been having.
My feelings with that scene was that the focus was meant to be on Sam as he isnt the character that often gets that kind of insight.
I agree, Sharon. It’s amazing the number of people saying that it’s the first time they get ian nsight to Sam’a feelings. It’s just because producers/writers rarely allow this to happen with Sam. Maybe JC thought this was the time to “introduce” Sam to the viewers.
I’m tired of Sam being portrayed as the “bad” brother with no clues given as to why he did this or that. I’m tired too of Sam not being allowed to interact with guest or supporting characters. Why is he always made to leave the room so Dean can have his heart-to-heart with the guest characters? Why can’t he have someone else to bond with, like Dean with Castiel, Benny, Bobby, etc? Why couldn’t they give him a meaningful relationship with a woman, like Sarah Blake e.g? They were great together and Sam obviously cared for her. If Sam’s relationship had been a strong one, it could t least have atenuated (not explained) his not going for Dean.
I see why people are feeling that Dean’s side was not well handled by the writer. I do hope this issue gets further elaboration but it must have a two-sided treatment if it is to work properly. For now, I’m more than happy that someone finally remembered that Sam has feelings.
I would like to believe that Sam is a nice, caring, introspective man.He has always had feelings, but keeps them to himself since Dean doesn’t like to talk things out very often. He knows that he has a habit of falling for certain women. Every time he makes a real meaningful connection with a person, that person dies- if not in season 1 then season8. Dean is able to have sex for sex, or kill a monster b/c it is a monster. Sam is the one who pauses to reflect. He knows that his emotions make him vulnerable, so many times I like to believe in order to avoid a real connection, he says something like, I will wait for you in the car, or leaves the room when there is one of those Dean/character of the week heart to heart conversations. He does not seek involvement-that is how he is written. It is ironic that Dean speaks about connections making them vulnerable and then he makes them while Sam avoids them and is written as the more outwardly emotional, let’s talk about it. Sam’s connection with Amelia appears to be based on loss and while the sex may be there, Sam utters to her, this was a mistake-again severing the connection. Dean had the first half of the season, but Sam owned the second half. Dean was getting Sam back from the ledge, it was not the time to deal with Dean’s issues, just his love for Sam and his POV about Sam. And if you go back and watch the first half, the writers had Sam doing stuff that lead up to the finale when it came to his perspective about his life and its meaning and his perception of himself. Just saying, I have never seen Sam as the bad brother. He makes choices for what he thins are the right reasons, but the consequences have proven him wrong. He is only human and he will disappoint you-The Brian Buckley song paraphrased.
Besides, we know that Dean had to give up Lisa and Ben because those types of connections get hunters killed or put loved ones at risk so why would the writers give Sam a strong relationship? It upsets the balance. It is all over Sam’s face when Victor asks him if he (Sam) wants children and Sam questions whether the two worlds can co exist for a hunter. I am delighted that JC wrote such a brilliant scene for JP to perform. Quality which appears to be appreciate by fandom whether you agree with each other or not about the characters’ expressing their POV.
Thanks for you reply. You made good points. I hope I didn’t give the impression of not appreciating the finale, which I totally did. You’re right, quality independs of whose POV is being expressed, and both our boys made it to perfection, didn’t they?
Whether Sam should or not have a strong relationship is open to debate, I guess, and I won’t insist on that. But I still resent Sam not being given the opportunity to relate with characters that are not Dean. Is there a purpose on that? I don’t know. To me, it feels as though he’s just written off the story sometimes. And judging from other comments I’ve been reading, I’m not alone in that opinion.
That’s why I’m so grateful to JC for giving Sam an important part to play. I enjoyed the second part of season 8 more than I thought I could. I didn’t feel that under SG’s rule. The soullenessness and the wall story were so promising and I was really excited, but then they were just swept under the rug. So yes, I’m overjoyed that, like you said, Jared was given such a material to perform and show what he can do with Sam if given the opportunity.
I have high expectations for season 9, which I hope will be strongly focused on the brotherly relationship and give us some of the answers that were left behind. 🙂
Sorry about the typing mistakes. Always happens when I get excited. 😳
Thanks for the compliment and the comment, st50!
One of the things that makes the brothers’ relationship such a challenge is precisely that it’s not in the guys’ nature – particularly not in Dean’s nature – to talk things out, so it’s hard to have a discussion that would really hash out their relationship once and for all. I think we’re always going to be on something of an emotional seesaw as they each in turn see and address something in the other. I do think it’s going to be Sam’s turn to respond to Dean next. 🙂
Thanks, Gerry!
I think one of the major things that has always played in the relationship between the brothers is the difference and complex interplay among love, need, and trust. The balance among those things is always shifting, and I think that’s always going to be the case. And because we fans have different interpretations and understandings of the brothers and empathize with them in different ways because of our own emotional and psychological makeup, we will never all see the relationship between the brothers as being balanced. Their relationship is always a work in progress, and I do expect to see a lot more about it in season nine.
I agree that in this episode, the focus was on what Sam needed from Dean, and how Sam’s own insecurities colored and thoroughly distorted the way he saw Dean’s relationships with Benny and Castiel. Dean gave Sam what he needed in the moment to pull Sam back from the brink: the assurance that Sam was and always would be first in his heart.
I think Sam does still need to understand more about Dean and find a way to express his love for Dean in terms of what his brother needs, not just what he himself feels. I do see opportunities for that to happen as the story progresses. I can’t guarantee that will happen, and I will admit disappointment that Carver hasn’t addressed the emotional underpinnings of Sam’s choice not to look for Dean, because that created such a glaring source of conflict between the brothers that[i] didn’t need to exist[/i] in order to drive their story forward. I’ll confess I don’t get what Carver was trying to do with that. I came up with my own head canon to explain it to myself, but found it unsatisfying that the show left it hanging and unresolved. I can’t argue on it because I don’t know what Carver intended, and I won’t make assumptions in the absence of data.
I will say something I’ve observed before. I believe Dean, precisely because he lost so much when he was very young, but – unlike Sam – old enough to be aware of what he’d lost, has always needed [i]and been aware of needing[/i] Sam more than Sam perceived needing Dean. My thinking is simply that for Sam, Dean was always there; he was a constant, much more so than John, and as a little kid, Sam relied unconsciously on his presence without really thinking he could lose it. That security was the opposite of Dean’s fear that he would lose Sam as he’d lost Mary, and as he’d lost the gentle aspect of who John had been with Mary. I think Sam always had the security to be more independent, and that shaped who he has become; I think Dean was too aware of loss to ever take the chance of losing more.
I also think Dean needs to be needed. His valuation of himself is still based on his ability to be useful to others, to answer others’ needs as he always responded to John’s and Sam’s needs. Being the guy who comes through and carries the load is important to Dean’s own self image. Sam needing him and saying it had to be balm despite the words also being nettles showing how little Sam really apprehended the true depth of Dean’s love for him.
These two guys are really screwed up, but at base, they are brothers and love each other – now if only they could each figure out how to express that love in the ways that the other could best experience it!
I need to take more time to think and write much more organized thoughts. My apologies, but this “reply” has been all over the place, and I know it hasn’t come close to conveying what I’d like to say. Well, we’ve got a hellatus to think …
Anyway, thanks for all the work you put into this comment, and all the discussion below!
Hi Bardicvoice! Thank you for such a detailed reply–and I think we view the brothers in a very similar way.
I too think Dean grew up aware of loss and also without a source of unconditional love–John loved him, but didn’t know how to do it unconditionally until he was faced with losing Dean. I always thought it was so very sad that when he tried to tell Dean he loved him for just being him, Dean couldn’t really “hear” that–what a sad way to have to leave a child.
I also think Sam grew up with a source of unconditional love–Dean, which gave him a different childhood. He was far more able to rebel because he could take Dean’s love for granted. And I think that is the source of him being able to tell Dean he needs to head out and find his own number one, while assuming he will always have that place for Dean . And it’s also the source of his being shaken to his core if he suspects his actions have impacted his brother’s love for him. Much of the strength that comes from unconditional love is undercut for Sam because of the demon blood he could always feel and feared. He was always running from himself, but could never share what scared him.
So that part of the psychology I understand. What doesn’t work as well for me is that the writers brought all this up for examination this year, but didn’t do a great job of following through what they raised. Like you, I am dissatisfied with how Sam’s decision not to look for Dean was handled, because it’s integral to the emotional arc.
It leaves me in such a weird place, because I truly (really honestly!) loved the Sam and Dean scene and empathized with Sam and understand his need for his brother to believe in him. I just needed more from the season on the issues it opened with.
[quote]Sam needing him and saying it had to be balm despite the words also being nettles showing how little Sam really apprehended the true depth of Dean’s love for him.[/quote]
But Sam knows how much Dean loves him. Dean has brought him back to life when he died, and he has made the decision to kill him when he thought he was going to stop being Sam and become a monster. He has gone to hell for him and fought Death for him. Sam knows how much Dean loves him, how could he not? I don’t think that Sam has ever doubted that Dean loves him.
Sam has dealt with every way that Dean has not been able to communicate his feelings sensibly, he lets Dean hit him to relieve his feelings, he asks him to talk and then gives him space until Dean is willing to do so. Sam entirely understands Dean and Dean’s insecurities – he always is there when they are pointed out. And Sam has sacrificed everything to stay with Dean because he knows Dean can’t survive without him (just the faintest suggestion that Dean work with someone else caused havoc).
What Sam WANTS is for Dean to trust him and that is NOT the same thing as love. He asked Dean for his trust and Dean replied that he loved him more than anything.
I know I am in a minority here but I would say it is Dean who isn’t completely clear on the wants and needs of his brother, and because of that he doesn’t understand that Sam has, and always has had, unconditional love for him, and I would like to see that dealt with next season as well.
But Dean already told Sam that he [i]trusts[/i] him. Dean expressed this to Sam in [i]both words and actions[/i]. How much more does Dean have to do to make this clear to Sam, in your view?
And I don’t agree that Dean “can’t survive without” Sam. Dean has survived without Sam. Dean has allowed Sam to walk away from hunting, and from him, several times. Is Dean happiest when he’s hunting with Sam? Yes. But Dean can, and has, survived without Sam.
Chris_J, I don’t think eilf is saying that. I get her point that saying you love someone is not the same as saying you trust them. After the earlier season conflicts I think it would be nice to hear that expressed clearly at some point. The church scene probably wasn’t the best time to put it all on the table. I am a Dean leaning fan of both brothers but it would ease my mind to feel that trust is no longer an issue. Dean did say to Sam “NONE of that is true” so that is what I take to the next season as I believe that Dean does trust Sam.
Dean can survive without Sam but clearly prefers having him at his side. He will always resist the idea of Sam leaving but my opinion is that if Sam ever really has a shot at “normal” and happiness, he would be loosen his grip and let Sam go with blessings. Amelia wasn’t the answer.
Thanks Leah. That is what I mean, I appreciate you clarifying it for me. And actually I DO see Dean’s point of view too (I am not a total blind Sam-girl just yet 😀 )
I guess my plea is for equality in the relationship between the boys because it would make the show more entertaining to me – more like the early seasons I guess. I love the angst and melodrama but it appealed to me more when it was on both sides and not one right and one wrong as it so often is now (yes that is too simplistic and will bring down another round of annoyance on my head, but I can’t help that). I would like to see it not reset to that next season is the bottom line of my point.
Anyway I had already decided to stop arguing my case (which I think would be favorable to both characters) as I really do not seem to be able to phrase it in a way that doesn’t annoy people. Apologies ChrisJ.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! for a most excellent review. I’v been waiting for you to throw your “two cents” in as regards the finale and I was not disappointed. I knew that whatever you had to say about it would be worth knowing.
I love the way you parallel your relationship with your sister with the brothers’. That’s how I’ve always related to them myself but from the completely opposite point of view of your life. I’m the Dean in that equation as the the eldest of four siblings. (I’m also the smart, get things done, pragmatic one who shows her love through actions rather than words.)
I often view and understand who the brothers are through my relationships with my younger brothers and sisters, so I can certainly attest to one thing: older siblings love their younger ones beyond the ability to speak it and that the vast majority of the time younger siblings are an exasperating puzzle to us. (Your sister loves you beyond all reason as I do my siblings as Dean does Sam and yet, younger siblings can be some of the greatest mysteries in the ‘verse. I’m pretty sure your sister and I would have a lot to talk about.)
I’m glad you did ,at least, like the episode though. I will definately be going back to read some of the meta you’ve written on the brothers in the past. (And yes, I have your webpage bookmarked.) 😆
Thanks for reading and commenting, and I’m glad you enjoyed it! I hope you’ll have a good time with my old meta … 🙂
Mary,
I enjoyed your review very much. I was more narrow in my focus on Sam’s reasoning for the Trials, but I agree with you that Sam and Dean’s major issues. I’d argue that it is perhaps their greatest strength and weakness. If they thought exactly the same and reacted exactly the same they’d become wooden boring characters.
I also think your story about you and your siblings points out just what makes the brothers and their recurring mistakes with one another almost natural. They don’t even realize they’re necessarily doing it. I do think this is a good starting point for them, however, and perhaps we’ll see them become even more mature.
I personally am not bothered by the angels appearing human after their fall; however I can see your point and understand how logistically it can contradict a lot of what is quoted. Perhaps it is not just human’s limited perspective as much as it is a limited TV budget and a need to have actors. But yes, I can see the flaw, too.
I love, love, LOVE your take on the production aspects. I learn so much from reading them and I love how you weave them into the text of the story itself, making the audio/visual part of it more concrete for me.
Most of all, I loved this:
“But you know something? My delight in this show goes beyond my criticisms of the specific details that didn’t work for me in a story or a season. I’m not concerned with having everything the way I want it to be. What makes me happy is having Supernatural itself: the story of two brothers who love each other and build a family of much more than blood, for whom saving people is the family business. What makes me happy is the passion and love of all the people behind the show who consistently make it more than an hour of entertainment; the quality it has that makes me think and write about it for long hours after an episode – or a season – has come to an end. What makes me happy are all the people I share my passion with, and the way they give it back to me.
Those are the blessings set before me, and with them, I’m content.”
This is what this show means to me and I know so many others. It is more than just a show and it has brought so much more than simple entertainment in the hours I’ve spent watching it.
Thanks for sharing this!
Thanks, Allison! You’re among my blessings, and no mistake!
It is interesting that our posters understand that siblings fall into the same patterns all their lives and rarely change, but want Sam and Dean to continually become more emotionally mature.
Of course we do!
They’re heroes – who are, by definition, greater than us mere mortals 🙂 They give us hope that we, too, can be better than we are.
And not only siblings – any kind of relations once established is pretty difficult to evolve. Habits persist, and we somehow tend to treat our kids or parents, or partners the way we got used to. You can’t possibly stop behaving like a child if you are treated like one by your parents. So you want independence – you go away. This is what Sam wants, a d this is the only thing Dean can’t give him – independence. There will always be issues I’m afraid, and only because Dean and Sam are so different as Bardicvoice put it with Sam being intellectual and verbal, and Dean being emotional and tactile. Their roles concerning each other are almost opposite – those of older brother, almost-father, commander, protector, and younger brother who needs protection. Jerry in his comment above insisted that Dean’s needs remained unanswered in the S8. My point is that Dean’s basic need is to have his brother alive and close enough to be able to look after him. Dean wants to take responsibility, and this need of his is fully satisfied in the finale. On a second thought, though, Jerry is right that no question asked in S8 got answered. Dean asked … okay, we all know what he asked, don’t want to repeat, and Sam asked if Dean trusted him. Instead of answering the questions the brothers preferred to asked their own. Interesting kind of communication,eh?
[quote] On a second thought, though, Jerry is right that no question asked in S8 got answered. Dean asked … okay, we all know what he asked, don’t want to repeat, and Sam asked if Dean trusted him. Instead of answering the questions the brothers preferred to asked their own. Interesting kind of communication,eh?[/quote]
What an interesting thought. They are still not exactly communicating, are they. 😮
Sam asked for trust, Dean answered that there’s no one he loves more. Does love = trust for Dean?
” Jerry in his comment above insisted that Dean’s needs remained unanswered in the S8. My point is that Dean’s basic need is to have his brother alive and close enough to be able to look after him. Dean wants to take responsibility, and this need of his is fully satisfied in the finale”
I think Dean’s needs are more complicated than just having Sam close enough to protect, whatever Sam feels about that. In season one, Dean’s emotional needs were exposed by the Yellow-Eyed Demon:
John: You know, you fight and you fight for this family, but the truth is they don’t need you. Not like you need them. Sam – he’s clearly John’s favorite. Even when they fight, it’s more concern than he’s ever shown you.
Dean’s feeling that he loves more than he is loved has always hurt him, and it comes up in Dark Side of the Moon, when he and Sam talk about family. I would say it came up again this season, strongly. The first part of the season brought it up explicitly, but I would say Trial and Error also was important in exposing Dean’s emotional needs.
He tells Sam he’s just a grunt, that Sam has always been the important one (shades of Yellow Eyed Demon in season one) and it doesn’t matter if Dean dies. He’s meant to be cannon fodder. I don’t see how this confession is less important to the relationship than Sam’s confession he needs Dean to keep him number one.
Sam promises to show Dean how to see the light, to feel hope. But that dynamic reversed almost immediately and Dean’s needs were never on the table again.
So, for me, Dean’s needs in the relationship include being able to protect Sam, but aren’t limited to that.
In fact, this season, Dean’s emotional growth was to recognize he didn’t have the right to guilt Sam into working with him and to tell him to make his own choice about Amelia–just make a choice because it wasn’t safe to have a foot in both worlds.
It was Sam who told Dean to remake his happiness equation so he didn’t need Sam as a partner, and then was so hurt when Dean leaned on other people.
So much still there to work out.
So much still there to work out.
Fully and totally agree. And isn’t it the best thing that could happen to a show and its fans? The characters are so deep and many-layered and the relations between them so complicated that there is more room for interpretations than actual interpretations (so far). I have a feeling that we hadn’t started yet, and it’s so sweet. (goes away to read fanfics) 🙂
Hi Novi, I both do and don’t agree. I love how complicated and nuanced this relationship is and think there is lots left to explore. But, each season has its emotional arcs which get a lot of exploration of a particular set of dynamics. Those arcs get touched on in later seasons, but they never again get a lot of specific exploration. So I think they have to feel satisfying in how they play out for that season as well as what they add to the overall picture.
To me, this season brought up Dean’s season one fear his family will take everything he has, but offer little in return–and then pretty well left that in place. We saw Dean willing to let Sam go, but saw Sam return w/o an emotionally honest scene telling his brother why.
Sam’s arc showed him insisting his brother let him go to determine his own number one relationships–and ended with him showing Dean that if he makes relationships when Sam looks elsewhere for meaning, those relationships hurt Sam and he needs reassurance from Dean he is always number one.
It’s not tenable balance, and unfortunately, I don’t think next season will pick up where it left off in the emotional exploration. If it does, I will be a happy camper. (-: But I suspect we’re supposed to think the boys went through a lot of pain this year to end up in a good place with each other. That’s the part to me that feels unsatisfying.
[quote]Sam’s arc showed him insisting his brother let him go to determine his own number one relationships–and ended with him showing Dean that if he makes relationships when Sam looks elsewhere for meaning, those relationships hurt Sam and he needs reassurance from Dean he is always number one.[/quote]
Gerry how can you say this about (I assume) Sam and Amelia without acknowledging that Dean rejected Sam’s request for him to do the same with Benny? On a practical scale Sam’s relationship with a non-supernatural being is not nearly as dangerous to their survival as Dean’s relationship with a supernatural predator. Yes, Sam asked (demanded) that Dean give up Benny but Dean said no and Sam didn’t ask it of him again, Sam also went back to work with Dean knowing that Dean had made a decision that Sam didn’t like.
Dean used Amelia as a pawn, which could easily have put her in danger, asked Sam to give up Amelia and told him that it was all or nothing, in or out, make a decision.
The two situations are equal. One brother doesn’t get to be the victim and the other one selfish in this situation.
[quote]To me, this season brought up Dean’s season one fear his family will take everything he has, but offer little in return–and then pretty well left that in place. [/quote]
I have answered to Novi further down what I think the difference is between trust and love in the Winchester mindset so I won’t go into it here. But really I am having a lot of trouble seeing how Dean comes out of all this looking like the victim of his family (Sam) not loving him enough and being all take and no give.
My 2 cents, eilf. I don’t think Dean looked liked the victim here. From my view the whole final brother scene was, and should have been, about Sam. This has been building up and it was high time that it spilled out. I don’t think the scene was about resolving all the boys issues. Communication is and will continue to be a hard thing for Sam & Dean. I agree that trust and love do not mean the same thing to Dean but they are closely connected. I think the same issues will rear their heads again next season but this particular scene was about Dean letting Sam know he was and always will be the most important thing to him. It wasn’t a heart to heart where all things were supposed to be on the table. It was a start. To try and make sense of all the situations earlier this year lies madness, it was one misperception after another that got completely out of control. 🙂
Thanks Leah 😀 I should know better than to start the whole ‘but wait X (brother) does X (bad thing) too so why don’t the same rules apply to him?’ thing, that way leads to madness and VERY thin comment boxes …
For me the big brother smile on Dean’s face while he is bandaging Sam’s hand at the end of the episode looks like someone who is, for the moment at least, content with his brother’s need / regard /love for him and I don’t see why Sam can’t have a cathartic howl of pain and have that pain dealt with by Dean without the inclusion of this idea that he (Sam) is self centered.
Just for the moment they seem to be on a similar page, I would like to be happy with that 🙂 You know just for a while.
🙂 I absolutely agree eilf, so lets be happy!!
eilif, I think there was a different trajectory with Dean’s arc over Amelia. He did indeed start by making Sam feel guilt over Amelia. But he has to process those feelings and think about what Amelia means to Sam. He ends up telling Sam to make his own decision about Amelia and he acknowledges his own hurt feelings were part of what was driving him.
DEAN
You know what, man? I got this. You go.
SAM
What?
DEAN
Don’t you have a girl to get back to?
SAM
Yeah. I guess I do. Um… Since when are you on the Amelia bandwagon?
DEAN
I don’t know. I’m just tired of all the fighting. [He takes a beer out of the refrigerator.] And, you know, maybe I’m a little bit jealous. I could never separate myself from the job like you could. Hell, maybe it’s time for at least one of us to be happy.
SAM
What, you being such a big hugger and all? She does make me happy, and she could be waiting for me if I went back. I’d be a very lucky man if she was. But now… with everything staring down at us, with all that’s left to be done… I don’t know.
DEAN
Huh.
SAM
Yeah.
DEAN
Well, I do know this – whatever you decide, decide. Both feet in or both feet out. Anything in between is what gets you dead.
Dean telling Sam to get in or get out was based on his own safety, not Dean’s refusal to accept Sam cared for Amelia. He had to do a lot of processing to get there, but he did get there.
In contrast, Sam’s ultimatum was based on not accepting Benny as someone Dean can care for. He didn’t care whether Dean was right about Benny or not or what Benny meant to Dean. And he never took back his ultimatum.
DEAN
Right. Okay, well, then, what the hell do we do now?
SAM
That depends. It depends on you. On whether or not you’re done with him.
DEAN
Well, honestly, I don’t know.
That same episode, Dean breaks off his friendship with Benny, so he makes a decision about the ultimatum. We know he felt ashamed of what he did, from his talk with Benny in Taxi Driver, when he mentions letting Benny down twice.
If Sam had processed his feelings enough to realize his feelings about Benny were based on his insecurities and he had to allow Dean the space to make his own friends, just as Dean has to process he had accept Sam could want that life with Amelia, then the situations would be a lot more parallel.
Well as they are both saying, with different degrees of anger because they have different understandings of the person they don’t know: ‘choose them or choose me, you can’t have both’, I consider them to be close enough as a parallel:
-Sam is understandably worried about what he sees as Benny’s influence over Dean, Dean is understandably angry about someone he knows nothing about. (The fact that Dean came around first is because he has less reason to be suspicious of Amelia, in fact he has no reason to have a problem with Amelia).
-apparently neither one is grateful to the partner of the other one for keeping their brother alive.
However as I know that there isn’t a hope in the world of anyone changing whatever their current opinion is of the Sam/Amelia, Dean/Benny thing (or any of the many other controversies) all I can say is I hope the show never ever has another character called Amelia …
EDIT: to add, Sam also admitted he was wrong about Benny and that he had no problem with it should Dean find a way to bring him back. Surely that counts for the same thing as what Dean said in that scene?
EDIT again: to say yes I shouldn’t say ‘I am going to leave it there’ and then add an ‘and furthermore….’ apologies 🙂
We can agree with that! (-: I can’t think of one level the Amelia story line worked on.
“-Sam is understandably worried about what he sees as Benny’s influence over Dean, Dean is understandably angry about someone he knows nothing about. (The fact that Dean came around first is because he has less reason to be suspicious of Amelia, in fact he has no reason to have a problem with Amelia).”
I guess our place of difference is I see those conversations as at heart being about Dean feeling hurt over Sam not looking for him and Sam being both hurt and guilty over Dean turning to Benny when he was not there. I think Sam’s feelings about Benny were driven by his own insecurity, and I think the final scene seems to support that reading.
However, I agree that I’ve probably hashed this out enough. There’s no one perspective on anything in this show, which is a good thing. (-: And I am looking forward to season nine, so more worked for me than didn’t this year.
eilf and leah, I want to put in some cents too. I don’t think Dean looked like a victim either. I agree with Leah that the brother scene was about Sam. All of the brother’s issues are not supposed to be resolved in one scene – impossible! In addition, I was under the impression (correct me if I’m off base here) that it was a life or death situation and not a scene conducive to healing every misunderstanding between the brothers.
Dean may not separate trust and love as sharply as some. And I bet that Dean doesn’t count the hugs he gives versus the ones he receives. Has anyone out there ever done that in there own life? But apparently some of us do that with Sam and Dean. It puzzles me.
I guess loving both boys, I expect give and take according to their personalities as written. Probably because I am 4 months new to fan websites. Who knew?
I hope that made even a little bit of sense. (I can’t tell.)
I don’t see that Sam’s confessions are more important than Dean’s. It’s just that – like Sharon pointed out – it was Sam’s time to speak this time.
I know Dean had always this need to be loved. Now he knows that his brother would have preferred to die rather than disappoint him. To me, that is love. Like you said, there’s much to work out, but it’s a start.
Love can be expressed SO many ways…
But [b]Gerry[/b] we all say things that at the time we believe we mean and Sam is no different and at that point he was holding on to something that had giving him hope. Nothing is written in stone . Circumstance’s can change everything and the trials and the toll it took crumbled away the layers of Sam that he had built up so well.
I believe we all are aware of Sam’s failings as a brother but that doesnt mean he is immune to hurt. He felt guilt because he had failed Dean to such a degree he felt that Dean had to turn to a ‘angel’ and a ‘vampire’ because of it. Of course the boys are a on going project but we have to have both sides if this season had ended with only Dean’s then how would that of been any fairer than the unfairness you see in Sacrifice for Dean.
I appreciate you wanted certain things and I am sorry they didnt happen and clearly that clouds your view of Sam and that scene.
My view is that there’s no reason it should be either/or–we should have been able to get movement on both boys’ needs. The relationship was under the microscope this season. As I said, I like the bromoment in “Sacrifice”–it’s only in context of looking at the season as a whole that I see issues with the exploration of the relationship. It’s not that I didn’t want Sam’s POV to happen or to include what it did. I just wanted it tied into the exploration of what both boys need from each other, the way Dean’s arc was.
St50, thank you! Yes, it seems to me that for Dean love equals trust. He opens his heart and lets people in, so they, their lives and troubles become his concern, the part of his soul. Dean trusts the ones he loves like he would trust himself, that’s why it is so hurting for him when he finds out that “his”people lie or hide something from him. I don’t think that Dean’s attitude to his nearest and dearest is unique, though. We can relate, right?:-)
And after all, the brothers, oddly enough, managed to understand each other. Like, Dean asks, “Why…?” Sam cries,” I am lost, I am so unhappy! I will never be good enough for you, and you will never trust me!” And Dean exclaims,”I can’t do without you!” So it doesn’t matter if they answered any questions or not because the main things were said , and Sam got the support he needed, and Dean got the assuredness that he meant a lot for his brother.
Ha, my previous post was meant to be the reply to St50, but my notebook doesn’t always obey. What a mess!
Novi I have to ask, if Dean equals trust with love (considers them the same thing) then surely the implication of that is if he stops trusting someone his love for them is reduced? Also that if he trusts (for example) Benny and Sam has let him down then who is his priority with? Who does he ‘love’ more?
I ask because I feel that for Dean, what he has shown this season is the opposite. I think he considers trust and love to be separate things. Trust is one soldier to another (Benny (totally), Cas, Sam (sometimes)) and Love is between family members (Sam (totally) Cas (sometimes)). I think it is Sam who feels that love without trust is a poor exchange.
So in that conversation Dean got that Sam needs him and needs his approval more than anything else – which is what he (Dean) has always asked for.
Sam was given a blanket denial that Dean meant any of the don’t trust / would rely on others over you (but he did say those things so, was he lying?). And an assertion that Dean loves him more than anything else (Sam knows this. How could he not? ). He did not get a straight affirmation that Dean TRUSTS him. Being stuck for the rest of your life with someone who loves but doesn’t trust you is a fairly miserable sort of prospect isn’t it?
So if anything Dean’s issues could be seen to have been dealt with more completely than Sam’s.
Hi, eilf!
I just don’t think everyone separates their feelings so sharply!
Trust of a “brother in arms” seems different to me than trusting your brother. The love of a spouse is different than the love of a child.
I understand what you are saying. But I don’t think people speak that way. I love my brother. I love my daughter. I love my husband. I love my dog. All love. All a degree of trust.
I’m thinking that all of Sam and Dean’s issues were not meant to be resolved in one conversation.
No offense meant. Respectfully submitted. l2b
Hi L2B no offense taken 😀 In anything resembling a normal relationship it is clear that you can’t have love without some trust if you want that relationship to work. That was pretty much my point (and I submit it was Sam’s point too).
I guess I got a little caught up earlier because it seemed rather that there was an assumption that Sam was being demanding of love, like a child, I have also seen him referred to as selfish and as not really having the same depth of feeling that Dean has for him and being unhappy that Dean has other relationships and it just seemed rather unfair to Sam.
I agree that there are different levels of trust but it is Dean who has brought up the ways Sam is untrustworthy and since their entire life is a battlefield, I don’t see that he necessarily sees brother in arms trust as different from any other sort.
Sam is not just Dean’s younger brother and he is not a soldier in Dean’s army, he is supposedly an equal with free will. In the moments before Sam started the trial Dean explained to him all the reasons he had let Dean down before, he implied (to Cas no less) that he couldn’t be trusted and he gave a very pointed order as to exactly what Sam was to do. All of these looked from Dean’s point of view like brothers who understood each other and from Sam’s point of view as if Sam were a soldier of poor standing in the army being given orders.
As I said before I truly believe that Sam gets that Dean loves him, he had little reason at that point to think Dean trusted him.
I absolutely agree that their issues are not going to be resolved in that conversation 😀 Where would our show have gone if they can’t misunderstand each other most of the time?
EDIT: As an aside to all my comments today I am really not trying to be argumentative, if it comes across as my being critical of Dean then that isn’t my actual intention. As much as I am always arguing Sam’s point of view I really like both of the brothers and see their points of view, but I am a ‘rooting for the underdog’ sort of person, always have been, and to me that is Sam. I feel that that last scene in the church was lovely and important for both characters and left a warm glow (thanks Leah for that phrase 😀 ).
I am enjoying this discussion very much, I can see what Gerry is saying, but everybody’s points are well taken. Carry on all!
Heh: I think we all love the brothers and because of that, desperately wish they’d learn to stop unwittingly hurting each other! *grin*
I enjoyed your analysis and you raise several interesting points about angels. Jimmy Novak died and his soul ascended to Heaven way back. Jimmy agreed to this in order to save his daughter from being inhabited by Cas. Jimmy sacrificed himself, so Cas is in an empty vessel and whether he has a soul is a question. Is he a hybrid like the Nephilim he killed? The other angels may just appear as mortals but may be souless-what work for the Winchesters and motivation to continue with the angel tablet. Kevin appears to be drawn back in the whole situation instead of fleeing. As to awards, I wish the CW would submit Jared’s performance but these types of genre shows usually do not get much exposure-although many shows this year have attempted to go into this genre. Maybe the CW does not want to split votes btw the J’s as both have given so much this season. The supporting actors, Misha and Mark as well. The script, art direction,made us emote on many levels-job well done. Now to the sibling relationship. I am one of 4 siblings. Sometimes I have taken on the “Dean” role and sometimes the “Sam” role. I lost my eldest brother just around the time the series started and SPN got me thru that grief as well as other major losses. I digress. I feel Sam’s agony of having not lived up to expectations that I thought others had for me; I’ve been at that “so?” moment and had a sibling pull me back into his bosom with the realization that my perception was off. I have had siblings look at me as though I had set a high bar for them to reach and they think they failed me- still working on some of those relationships. I am about the same age as you and also went to law school so I too have a few years of experience on the brothers as well. The dynamic continues to grow, but some reactions to our siblings are imbedded in our ribs no matter how mature we become. We are not clones of each other and the reactions are a source of deep pain. So Sam and Dean will probably continue to be as you describe them- that’s one of the reasons the series works and keeps us. It was not time for Dean to express his needs- he did so earlier this season. When u take someone off a ledge, you keep your needs quiet(sacrifice) in order to save the other. Been there as well. You can love a sibling, like them or trust them-not necessarily equals and not have much in common with them except parentage or hunting. Dean’s snarky remarks before Sam’s confessional were a writer’s reminder of all that Sam carries with him for a long time-remember not all viewers are long time fans- so yes, a writer’s device. The chaperone comment- not the first time Sam has overheard Dean and Cas talking about Sam- had 2 possible meanings and of course was a set up but also a reminder of how cerebral Sam takes these comments as arrows to his heart.
So I see this finale as a beginning of a new series with old friends, and foes. Oh. it is going to be a long summer and not sure October premiere will resolve all the holes, but I’ll be there. All of my comments are made respectfully as my own POV and yes I have learned there are many points of view that are equally valid:-)
debbab, sorry to jump in but one thing that bugs me about the whole Jimmy-Cas situation is this:
From Rapture (4.20)
[i]CASTIEL:
I wanna make sure you understand. You won’t die or age. If this last year was painful for you, picture a hundred, a thousand more like it. [/i]
And Jimmy really had no choice but to comply because it was his daughter facing this or him and what parent would bestow something like that onto his/her child? So a no-win situation for everyone. Jimmy gets to suffer forever and Amelia and Claire lose a dad.
So it was established then that Jimmys[i] is[/i] still in there, has been this whole time (even the whore house scene which made it even more disturbing for me), it was even mentioned it season 5 when Famine effected Cas (’cause of Jimmy). And that just really sucks.
I wish they had made it canon that Jimmys soul was in heaven (or got there at some point) but just like the Adam situation, I’m really doubting it will happen 🙁
But yeah, continue the interesting discussion 🙂
I stand corrected about Jimmy’s soul. Thanks. I remembered how Famine made Cas eat all that raw meat. So how does Cas function as mortal, off of Jimmy’s energy/soul? Was Cas given a soul impant by Metatron? Does anyone remember Jimmy Novack’s rapture as it seems to have fallen into the backspace/delete button. It will either make the Cas character more dimensional and interesting or the writers will ignore it. Is he just going to be a pain in the arse mortal to Sam and Dean and if he remembers being angelic how will he deal? He never really became a hunter when he said he would upon returning from Purgatory as Naomi seemed to find him first or was this Cas exercising his free will. Will Cas have a different pitched voice? Yep, this is a hole in the fabric, but I still love the material.
Thanks, Debbab! We’ve got a lot to look forward to!
I must disagree with you on one point: Jimmy didn’t die and go to Heaven in [i]The Rapture[/i]. Jimmy pressured Castiel to heal his body and take him as a vessel again in place of his daughter. Castiel warned Jimmy, [i]If this last year was painful for you, picture a hundred, a thousand more like it.[/i] So, Jimmy’s body wasn’t an empty vessel when Castiel moved from Claire back into him. Indeed, later in [i]My Bloody Valentine[/i], Famine’s power reached Jimmy, waking his physical hunger and craving for hamburgers despite the angel’s presence in the body. So I’m still wondering where Jimmy is, now that Castiel is walking the world as a human in what still looks like Jimmy’s body! Truth be told, I’ve wondered about Jimmy’s status every time Castiel died and was brought back – talk about a metaphysical conundrum!
Thanks for the complement and the comment! I always have trouble finding time to come back and reply to things, and I apologize for that!
Glad you enjoyed the Samuel Johnson quote discussion!
after dean’s cry me a river thing I want sam to say F you and do It. Its like all about dean again come on I am so suck of dean’s f-ing feeling please F you dean you took away sam time to be a hero like you take away everything of sam’s and damned us all again THANK YOU DICK! now that the falling angels are all on earth and with the demons still can come out what do you think is going to happen? Sam wanted to close the gates of hell and save us and with everything that happen to him with the demons he needed this and it gets taking away and with the falling angels happen they damn us all and the pain sam is feeling how is he going to feel when a holy war is happening and he had a chance to not have the demons come to earth how is he going to feel? OH wait its all about dean sorry I forgot.
Really? That is your takeaway from all this. Wow.
yes that what I takeaway from this because eveyone from other websites are saying too you should read more. And it starting to make sents to me too dean too away sam’s time to be a hero and some of them are calling dean selfish and I am thing there right.
Kerinda, I understand that you are upset. I have been to other websites and I find it too ugly. I read lines after lines of angry, bitter people trashing a character whose fans then respond by trashing the other character. That gets old fast. I am always open to a viewpoint that differs in mine if it doesn’t degenerate into name calling as you have done here. I can’t agree that Dean has taken everything away from Sam. Yes Dean wants his brother with him but there have also been times that Dean has tried to let Sam have the life he wanted. In the pilot he took Sam back to Jessica. The YED drove Sam back into hunting not Dean. After his initial hurt that Sam didn’t look (this year) he stepped back to allow Sam to chose what he wanted. Dean will always prefer to have his brother at his side but when push comes to shove he wants Sam to have his happy ending (even though he doesn’t think it is possible). Sam IS a hero, he dragged his sick body around for weeks trying to reach the end of these trials. Dean just decided that losing Sam wasn’t worth it and got him to see how important Sam was to him. This is not a bad thing in my book. Dean does not deserve to be told F-you and be called a dick for that.
to me when I say that dean took away something is that now it happen in season2 no one can tell me were sam went when he died now if its were I think it is dean took away that by bring him back and he did it again thats what I keep on thinking OK why can’t not sam go up there were bobby,mary,and his dad is WHY!
kerinda, I see what you are saying now. That will happen for them eventually but let’s don’t rush it ok. 🙂 Sam will find peace eventually. They still have work to do here. Sam is very much a hero in my eyes already, he does not ever have to do another thing to establish that.
PS- stay away from those websites. It is upsetting for fans of other characters also.
“What show have you been watching?”Respectfully, I disagree with you strongly. You are entitled to your own POV. Here is mine to counteract what you perceive.
It is about both Sam and Dean. By Sam not closing the Gates of Hell the series continues and it’s not as if the world will come to an end in an Apocalpse like before. Sam had a lot of screw ups and he felt like he disappoints Dean all the time. It is his self perception that drives him to “So?” as if he does not matter. And closing the gate seems to not assure us that the demons already here are not sent back so demons will be here to plague humans. Now the Winchesters have more useful knowledge and perhaps an advantage and it is not necessary for Sam to sacrifice himself.Now we have angels as humans who will have to exercise free will. Demons were humans once, angels were not.Demons play by rules. Angels will make a mess. Dean did not take away Sam’s success- he gave him an alternative. Dean expressed his needs in the early part of the season and Sam also assumes he knows what Dean needs Sam to do. It is a scene where Sam lets the wall down. I see it that way:-)
the same you been watching OK please don’t give that crap now that the falling angels are hear and the demon’s can still come out of hell they made a war. sam is going to die anyway why not die a hero and not in ALL THIS PAIN I CAN TO SEE SAM IN PAIN ANYMORE I AM CRYING JUST WRITING THIS I CAN NOT SEE HIM IN PAIN IN SEASON 9. HE SHOULD HAVE DIED A HERO BUT NO! AND WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH HIM IN PAIN AGAIN I CAN NOT DO THAT SORRY!
I agree with you [b]debbab[/b]. Both brothers blame themselves for a lot of things. I see both brothers just living their lives messing up like humans do, and the fandom placing blame. I was attempting to describe that yesterday and failed.
Even if a fan (me) is trying to defend a brother and then the other brother too, then both brothers at the same time, I feel I am to blame myself.
I think I will quit for a while. Talk about crying while you write. Geez.
Kerinda, honestly can’t we agree that these are both good people trying to deal with impossible circumstances while being damaged by everything that has happened to them.
Sam and Dean are damned if they do and damned if they don’t, they always have been. If Sam had closed the gates of hell there would have been a different backlash. If Dean had been doing the trials they would have gone wrong for him. I think that the trials have left Sam damaged and possibly they are going to need an undamaged angel to help them cure him. Is the perception going to be that Sam being ill is Dean’s fault? Maybe, maybe not. Should Dean have left Sam finish the trials and die? Maybe maybe not. If Sam suffers for months and then it turns out that Dean was lied to by Naomi before she died and the trials would not have killed him should we blame Dean? I say no, because he went with the best information he had and made a difficult decision.
Sometimes all there is is making a decision and dealing with the consequences.
And it will come back to lets everyone blame sam card again and no one blames dean and I can not deal with that again I sorry but that is going to happen I can feel it and I am sick of it OK.
So my 2 cents on that is that while, yes it does seem that the show, by mostly using Dean’s POV, seems to imply that Dean’s decisions are correct and Sam’s not, it isn’t always the case. To an extent the fandom is way more inclined to notice when Sam does something wrong than when Dean does (and that includes people who want to side with Sam because they are on the defensive) and so Sam’s sins get magnified while Dean becomes more bullet-proof – but that is mostly in certain segments of the fandom, not in the show.
The show itself often is more judgemental of Dean and his decisions than you would think from reading reviews or comments. I suggest you stop reading comments on sites that are recognized to have anti-Sam bias because you will enjoy the episodes a whole lot more – I say this from experience 😀 (Basically WFB is the one safe spot for Samgirls).
I think that the writers have taken on board people’s complaints that we never get Sam’s POV and Dean doesn’t get the mytharc and next season will address that (fingers crossed).
People on here are going to be perfectly willing to listen to your point of view (especially Leah and Debbab) even if they don’t agree with you. But try putting it in a way that doesn’t doesn’t put people on the defensive or actively annoy them (which is easier said than done – I failed at it yesterday).
I agree with you on one thing though, I don’t think there will have been a miraculous cure for Sam by the beginning of next season.
Count me as one who DOESN’T want a miraculous cure for Sam either. Such a solution would simply deny everything he went through with the trials. I’m not entirely “healed” of the disappointment that the wall storyline turned out to be. Now I’m in honeymoon with my show again and I want to remain so.
[quote]Count me as one who DOESN’T want a miraculous cure for Sam either. Such a solution would simply deny everything he went through with the trials. I’m not entirely “healed” of the disappointment that the wall storyline turned out to be. Now I’m in honeymoon with my show again and I want to remain so.[/quote]
Count me in as well. I’m really grateful to Carver for making up for season seven with this storyline and letting us really feel Sam’s suffering and worry about the character.
As for the whole debate, I consider myself a Sam-girl, but it didn’t even cross my mind, that Dean denied Sam the heroism by convincing him to break the trial. Do you really expect Dean just watching the most important person in his life die again, and this time probably for good? The Dean who once sold his soul to see his brother breathe again? I guess, we should sometimes apply more humanism than heroism to them.
I’m just wondering, what Kevin’s reaction would be. He has sacrificed a lot by himself, partially forced by Winchesters to translate the tablet and convinced, it’s worth it. What will he say knowing the Winchesters were not able to do their sacrifice in the end?
This may be 20-20 hindsight on my part but it always seemed to me that the trials were not the main point of the season. I couldn’t really see why the complaints were about one brother doing them over the other because it never really seemed like they were going to make some grand gamechange, but the requiremnt for the brothers to work together and lean on ech other WAS a change over previous seasons. The trials were too much of a magic Mcguffin and they really went into it without thinking it out enough. The idea that for both of them maybe the heroic thing was not to try to save the world but to be human and save each other makes the entire season make a lot more sense.
(Also, of course, if Dean had been doing the trials, and the mytharc was centered on him for the first time in a long time … and the trials turned out not to be the point … I guess that would have irritated a fair-to-moderate proportion of the fandom just a weeny bit ….)
Of course since they haven’t even started plotting out the story for next season yet any thoughts we have on the outcomes for everyone are like Schrodingers Cat … we can’t predict stuff because it hasn’t been written yet ….
Even though Sam undertook the trails, I can’t see them as a one-brother doing. The way I see it, Sam’s motivations to do the trials was not getting rid of the demons or saving the world (though these would be welcome consequences), not even cleasing himself. This notion only came to him halfway though the tests.
His true motivation was to give Dean hope, show him the light at the end. And deep down (or not so deep) to get Dean’s approval and love. So, like someone said, Dean was the glue that put everything together. It couldn’t have happened without thim.
As for what the future has in store, I’m very much interested in Crowley and what he may be up to. Did the unfinished cure have any effects? What his next move will be? And what the hell (no pun intended) is going on with Sam?
Family first against the story of hunting things, saving people. That’s just how the show has always been. The trials brought Sam and Dean to an emotional place that neither could go without the benefit of the trial experience. I see your point. This show works on so many levels.
[quote][quote]Count me as one who DOESN’T want a miraculous cure for Sam either. Such a solution would simply deny everything he went through with the trials. I’m not entirely “healed” of the disappointment that the wall storyline turned out to be. Now I’m in honeymoon with my show again and I want to remain so.[/quote]
Count me in as well. I’m really grateful to Carver for making up for season seven with this storyline and letting us really feel Sam’s suffering and worry about the character.
[/quote]
Just wanted to add my voice to those who hope that there is NO miracle cure for Sam next year. I hated the miracle cure in The Born Again Identity. Never have I been more disappointed with a storyline as I was with Sam’s S7 storyline. I’m really excited/nervous to see what’s going to happen to Sam in S9.
I too am so very grateful to Carver for the way Sam’s trials and worsening health storyline was handled this year. It was most welcome after last season.
The Born Again Identity was the episode that actually drove me away from the show. I had been very unhappy with the way Sam’s issues were being handled in Season 7 and that episode was the last straw.
To me, that was a very disappointing episode in almost every level. Jared did a great job with no-sleeping Sam but everything else failed. Considering that Sam was virtually about to die if nothing was done to prevent it, it lacked the emotion and sense of urgency that the situation required. Even Dean seemed OOC. He performed his duty of a good brother by seeking help to Sam, but he didn’t seem the same concerned big brother of other times. He just stood there watching, looking almost uninterested, while his brother was in his deathbed and Castiel told him that there was nothing to be done. Bobby’s death scene had much more impact. We all know that Dean loves Bobby, but still he wasn’t his little brother, before whom there’s “nothing past or present”. I have the highest opinion of Jensen’s acting skills so I put the blame on a clumsy script. Then Castiel just put his magical hand on Sam’s head and everything was magically resolved. Ugh.
Sorry about the rant, but like I said before, I’m still recovering from the frustration I felt back then. But it was so much better this time. Big brother Dean is back is his full glory and Sam has the chance to show what’s going on with him. Thank you Jeremy Carver!
Oh, and if there’s any chance that the Amulet makes a reapperance, I’m sure there will be no complaints either. 🙂
Oh, and if there’s any chance that the Amulet makes a reapperance, I’m sure there will be no complaints either. :-)[/quote]
You are aware that if the amulet makes an appearence it will simply be as the God finder Castiel made it out to be. The angels falling and metranon ‘stealing’ heaven all points to that direction.
It does seem with that role, that is how te amulet will return. Dont be disappointed if they dont make a mention of what it originally stood for in the beginning. That aspect of the amulets identity is dead and buried when Cas declared it as a mystical ‘god finder’.
Count me in as well. You bring up an interesting point about Kevin. He, like the Winchesters, is in the life and has lost loved ones. He wants normal. He also had no say in whether he wanted this life as a prophet. Osric does a great job as Kevin and his role has expanded from its original 3 planed appearances. Again, the finale has opened up so much. Yet, I so hope the writers do not cure Sam to quickly as it is great to see such high standard performances and yet I know it is hard to keep up such intensity in both acting and writing. Fruit baskets for LA group and BC crew.
@ Gwen, MooseGirl absolutely agreed. I was so disappointed back then, I almost lost my interest in the show and watching everything past this episode was just forced. It’s a shame, Jared did such a great job for such a wasted storyline. I remember his enthusiastic interviews, I guess, he must have been disappointed as well. Using Castiel as the deus ex machina device was probably one of the worst decisions ever made in this show. Not to mention Cas was totally useless story wise past this point.
@debbab I absolutely loved Osiric this season, he showed Kevin’s desperation and frustration perfectly. His evolution has been interesting to watch and I’m wondering, where it will go next season. I wish, we could see more interaction and relation between Kevin and Sam, because they and their stories are so similar in many ways, the story is just begging for some kind of bond between them.
your right its just other website get me so mad sometimes and its heart-breaking over it and to read all that crap suck I love the show I really do but all the sam bashing hurts sometimes.
[quote]your right its just other website get me so mad sometimes and its heart-breaking over it and to read all that crap suck I love the show I really do but all the sam bashing hurts sometimes.[/quote]
Kerinda, I see where you are comming from – been there, done that. To the point where I didn’t enjoy watching the show anymore. The best thing you can do is to quit the website and watch the show how it is not how some people see it. It helps a lot:)
Dean has screwed up many times over 8 years and even before when they were kids. There is no need to assess blame on either Sam or Dean. To err is human…. They always make the decisions and then consequences evolve that even our heroes could not have anticipated. They keep each other human and yes both are imperfect. No blame just love and acceptance- it is what they both need from each other.
Making a decision and dealing with the consequences: In the episode, The Song Remains the Same, Dean asks his Mom, Mary to leave John, to sacrifice her love for him to avoid Dean and Sam’s existence and their cursed lives. She cannot. She is already pregnant with Dean, but could have left before Sam, but could not. The decision to not sacrifice her own happiness with John had consequences. She had the unbelievable intel, and Dean and Sam were okay with never existing in lieu of possibly being killed as hunters.Yes, times were different for single mothers- I am not talking about sociology here- but the constant thread of making decisions and accepting the consequences. Dean cannot sacrifice Sam and yep, there will consequences- I think they are called season9. Are we not always faced with making the best decision based on what we know at any given time? Sometimes we luck out and consequences work out. 20/20 hindsight from a rear view mirror is easy, making the decision and going forward is the tough part. Angels with a few exceptions such as Cas, Metatron, Naomi, do not think but are programmed. Human vs. angels. No wonder Father preferred humans and the angels can’t stand us mostly. Hairless apes are complicated and have choice. Think about Metatron’s literary reference to Naomi- she doesn’t read much or know much about choice. Just thinking ….again.
It’s a great article, totally spot on. I have the same issues with the angel storyline, but nothing is finally decided yet and I hope, Jeremy Carver will give us a good back story in the next season. I really really hope so. Knowing his way of working from Being Human, I expected kind of an open ending, giving more questions than answers and opening a lot of new possibilities for the next season. And I’m grateful for it. It creates continuity and the impression of watching a bigger story, not only one-season-arc. But despite all the mythological issues, I’m happy this show started to work on the emotional level again.
I’m glad that you also realized why the scene between the brothers works in the end. I have the same problem with my mom like you with your sister. We always repeat the same mistakes. For years. But we also try. I saw what’s the real problem between Sam and Dean seasons ago, and I’m really happy, Carver broke something here at last and pushed the relationship forward. Of course they will have issues, of course this conversation didn’t magically solve everything, but finally Dean realized that Sam was ready to die if only for the reason of letting Dean down over and over again, and finally Dean assured Sam verbally that he’s the most important person in his life and everything else are just differences. It’s a good start. It doesn’t mean, they will now act and think the same, that they will have the same needs and expectations. But it means that they will maybe start to understand each other better, because communication is everything.
But it’s all in the writers’ hands, I guess we sometimes forget, that we are actually talking about a piece of writing, not two living beings;)
The problem is that Sam do all the talking about his feelings, and by the end it seems a speech of “I’m very guilty but the blame is yours”. I can’t see where, how and where he turn Cas over him. Because if he was refering to the last episode it was very manipulative.
Dean feelings only appears nearly all with third persons. And to me it is shows in two sentences in sixth season:
Lisa: You’ve got so much buried in there, and you push it down, and you push it down. Do you honestly think that you can go through life like that and not freak out? Just, what, drink half a fifth a night and you’re good?
Dean: You shove it down, and you let it come out in spurts of violence and alcoholism.
That scene was designed to simply give us some insight into Sam he wasnt blaming Dean but himself and he wasnt exactly in the best place either physically or emotionally at that moment .
If you didnt like the scene then thats your right but personally I am glad he got that chance and had no problem with what he said or how he said it .
Oh how I love your writing, Mary!!! I thank you and all the commenters for this awesome discussion. How is it that these characters are so real and such an important part of my life? This little TV show that could is a wonderful constant for me and these discussions serve to enhance my enjoyment. I will add only my opinion that the last half of the season offered so much in the way of story, character development and potential, and future mind expanding story lines. I am so happy for that. Supernatural brings me great joy while also encouraging my compassion for others. Like classic literature, this show makes me think and feel and imagine. I thank the Buddhas for my spiritual path and for this fantastic show. Cheers!! -RG
I found the following words, courtesy of the article below, that IMO summarizes the finale to perfection:
“… the family, that dear octopus from whose tentacles we never quite escape, nor in our innermost heart never quite wish to …” 😉
http://tvgeekarmy.com/post/viewpost/supernatural-season-eight-finale-packs-emotional-punch
🙂 So true. Nice review also. Thanks!
Love your review. Always have and always will. Thnak you so much. 🙂
Here’s a question. Back in the first half of the season when Dean was telling Sam he had to choose…..both feet in or both feet out. Do you think Dean was including himself (sam’s only family) in that decison? IF Sam had decided to stop hunting and live normnal with Ameila would that mean Dean would have cut all ties to Sam?
Do you think…even if Dean didn’t intentionally include himself, would Sam have read that in Deans wordings? So perhaps Sam wasn’t choosing Ameila at all? But he was choosing Dean. Sam gave up a type of life he preferred and felt he excelled at , a life that gave him hope because it didn’t have Dean in it. Sam choose a life of pain and uncertainty, of fear of screwing up and loosing Deans trust (again) becasue he wanted Dean in his life.
As Sam once sadi when Dean tried to get him to stay in an AU world without magic (can’t think of the title) And Sam refused: We’re not brothers here.
It was The French Mistake. 🙂
Hi Amy, I assumed he meant cut off ties completely. It was only partly cutting himself off from Lisa that resulted in Lisa and Ben being in trouble. We are forced to assume that once Lisa was completely left behind she was somehow safe. (Crowley would have had her really high on his list otherwise, wouldn’t he?).
If Dean were doing the hunting thing and then bringing a trail to Sam in his civilian life then Sam and everyone he knew would always be in danger.
So yes it was a choice between Dean and Amelia in my opinion.
[quote]Hi Amy, I assumed he meant cut off ties completely. It was only partly cutting himself off from Lisa that resulted in Lisa and Ben being in trouble. We are forced to assume that once Lisa was completely left behind she was somehow safe. (Crowley would have had her really high on his list otherwise, wouldn’t he?).
If Dean were doing the hunting thing and then bringing a trail to Sam in his civilian life then Sam and everyone he knew would always be in danger.
So yes it was a choice between Dean and Amelia in my opinion.[/quote]
See but this is my problem. I doint think you are correct that Sam has to seperate his two lives like dean did. First I think the supernatural sees only Dean as a threat. its why the supernatural invaded Deans ‘normal’ and also he was sort of poking that life with a stick figuratively speaking. Also i think his best friend being an Angel….a supernatural being had a lot to doo with it.
Sam was left alone for his entire year. Crowly basically mocked Sam being alone and then never gave him a second thought. He didn’t see Sam as a threat to anything. he didn’t keep an eye on Sam ‘just in case’. The only time the supernatural invaded Sam’s ‘normal’ part of life is when Dean sent that fake text making Sam think it had.
Honestly if Amiela and her life hadn’t turned into a daytime soap and Sam actually did the Lisa/dean thing (hunt and come home when he could) I’d bet dollars to donuts that not one supernatural creature would have given her a thought. Why would they when they never gave Sam a thought; never saw him as a potential threat. Sam simply is the tag along brother to the actual threat…. i.e. Dean.
and if theere is stiill an issue about Sam having normal while Dean hunts and theystill having a relationship. teh best solution obviously would be the Lisa solution. Erase Sam’s memory of all things Supernatural….just not of his family.
Hell, Sam could have the basic family facts. Mom died when he was a baby…etc. Heck, for a job Dean and John could have been bounty hunters. Thus the traveling, moving around, Sam craving his ‘normal’ life. Maybe he could have the memory beleiving he was a bounty hunter for a while.
Lisa proves that demons and such arn’t goiing to pop up and tell Sam thhe truth. And they certainly wont bother Sam in his new life. And his loved ones wont be in any danger from anything supernatural. Season 8 proved that.
So when you think about it…the choice never needed to be made. There simply wasn’t anything in the writing narrative to support it.
But it isn’t my argument – it is Dean’s. It always has been. He has wanted Sam to cut off ties with ‘normal’ since Season 1 (Skin) since normal gets injured if mixed up in the supernatural. And Dean cut himself off completely from Lisa to keep her safe, why should he mean that it would be different with Sam?
“Well, I do know this – whatever you decide, decide. Both feet in or both feet out. Anything in between is what gets you dead. “
There is no difference here between Sam can have Amelia or be a hunter and Dean can have Sam or be a hunter. If it won’t work for Sam why should it work for Dean? We already KNOW it didn’t work for Dean – and Dean knows it too.
If Sam is going to be normal then Dean needs to keep away from him – the same way Sam kept away from Dean as long as he could after he came back from Hell.
That is what that sentence seems to say and that is how I interpret it.
Hi Amy, I might have to disagree that the “supernatural” only see Dean as a threat, and only consider Sam the tagalong brother. How many times have they been referred to as the Winchesters? Didn’t Crowley refer to them as denim clad nightmares? Didn’t Crowley once say that everyone underestimates them? I could be wrong but I don’t remember Dean being singled out as the more dangerous. The more vocal maybe 🙂
Amyh, what happened to Dean and Lisa happened to Sam and Jessica, and then with Sam and Sara. So, they BOTH learned the same hard lesson.
Nothing bothered Dean and Lisa for a year, until a djin when after BOTH Dean AND Sam. It only happens that Dean was with Lisa and Sam was alone, but if Sam was with a girl, she would be threatened the same way.
Demons don’t bother Dean OR Sam when they are retired. Why would they? They are not hunting demons, so better let them be – don’t poke them. Lisa was only threatened when Dean was in action, and the writers could have put Amelia in the same situation as Sara, but it would not have been as emotional to us, fans, as it was with Sara, since a good part of us didn’t like Amelia.
So, I don’t agree with your statement that Sam is not a threat, only Dean. They both are. And when they are together, there is nothing they can not accomplish.
Bardicvoice, thank you for the fascinating and comprehensive look at this finale. It has been awhile now and I am still mulling it over. Time to move past the emotional impact and think about the fallout (no pun intended). The angels falling is as confusing as the demon cure, for sure. Lots of fodder for summer speculation. I too want to shake the brothers for their habit of making the same mistakes with each other over and over. I also recognize that longstanding relationships, be it with family or another kind, can breed patterns than can be repeated.
Thanks again for giving me so much to think about, as always!
Carina Mackenzie wrote a very interesting article about the season finale and the “didn’t look” issue. Recomended.
http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2013/05/supernatural-season-8-sam-winchesters-lowest-point-plus-high-praise-for-jared-padalecki.html
Thank you, MooseGirl, for the recommendation. Great article! Especially the part where Carina considers SPN as a story about Sam seen through Dean’s eyes – fascinating! Elif almost convinced me that love without trust is not such a good thing (patronizing parent’s love). Well, Carina’s article almost re-convinced me::-) After all, Sam’s words can be interpreted as a plead for forgiveness, not for trust. If trust is about reasoning, it’s because, it should be deserved, but forgiveness is unconditional… Okay, I’d rather go and re-read Bardicvoice’s review and the comments again – so much to think about!
Glad you liked. 🙂 Yes, whether you agree or not with her points, there’s much to think about.
I also like the reasoning for why Amelia didn’t work. I didn’t watch the first half of the season, but it sounds coherent to me.
SPN being Sam’s story told by Dean is pretty much my own take on the show, you know, so it was interesting to read someone else say it. I’m comfortable with one having the mytharc and the other the POV, if neither can have both. I think it’s fair. The only problem I see is that because of such division, Sam’s actions and motivations may not be well explained sometimes. That requires competent writing, which unfortunately we don’t always get.
I had thought of Sam as Luke Skywalker, but Anakin is another possibility. And I see Dean is Han Solo. 😉
Interesting take away. I have always viewed their roles as mixed, which is a good thing.
Luke was the hero (or wannabe) willing to throw himself into anything so he could save the day or save the girl. Han was the anti-hero (reluctant hero) who outwardly wanted to just live his life but would come thru in the end. Dean is (mostly) Luke but with the anti-hero facade. Sam is mostly Han but with the hero’s innocence.
Kripke could have written this into Campbell’s description (as Lucas did) but then the lines would not be as blurred and it is those specific lines that no longer work the way the hero’s journey used to (hence the reason Lucas changed his original hero’s and anti-hero’s in later films. (He tried it in Willow also and still had difficulty with the allure of the anti-hero in the modern world)).
I love the way these “hero brothers” are written, both hero and anti-hero depending on the situation. Both so willing to sacrifice themselves for the other, both flawed, both human, both in essence, each other’s hero.
Well Erick Kripke used the analogy of Sam =Luke and Dean= Han. I must admit Sam never has come across as written with Han Solo in mind for me .
[quote] Dean from the beginning of the story is more of the wise-cracking shoot-first-ask-questions-later action type, while Sam is the chosen one with the ‘force’, the one going on a journey which will confront him with the dark side within himself, make him fall and redeem himself through sacrifice. In this aspect Sam never was and will never bee the Han Solo of this story. Not even character-wise. Of course we can mostly apply it all to the seasons 1-5. Everything past this became more mixed and is quite an another story:) [/quote]
My feelings exactly.
You know, IMO the earlier seasons (1-3) had much more balance. There were Dean episodes and Sam episodes in a fair proportion. And back then, Sam actually connected with guest characters. Sorry if I don’t remember all the names, but there were his friends from Stanford in Skin, the girl in Hooked, Sarah, Missouri, Madison, the other special kids, the woman in Road Kill, etc. So even if those episodes were stil told from Dean’s POV, we got a glimpse to Sam’s feelings and motivations. The House of the Holy is an example and a favorite of mine.
From season 4 on, as I see it, the balance was not the same and Sam started to be underwritten. To me, this coincided with the introduction of the angels, specially of Castiel. The pairing of Dean and Castiel rapidly became a favorite with fandom and that pushed Sam a little to the back seat. Whether this is true or not is open to debate, but it’s the way I feel.
[quote]And on the side note – thank you very much for this fantastic discussion – I don’t remember when was the last time, I could write this part of my opinion down in a forum discussion without being beheaded right after ;)[/quote]
Hi, ellaine. sorry for the late reply. I was out of town for some days. Oh, I know how you feel. Have been there too. BTW, the pleasure of the discussion was mine. Feel free to share your ideas any time. 🙂