Reality Check: Showrunners Want To Listen To Their Fans But Can’t
“I never go online. Ever…It’s not because I’m not interested, it’s because I’m too interested.”
That quote came from Vince Gilligan, former “X-Filesâ€Producer and current showrunner for “Breaking Bad.†He spoke those words during a recent roundtable held by the Hollywood Reporter in honor of the upcoming Emmy nominations. So what made him say such a thing?
Among these roundtables were discussions with five current comedy showrunners and five current drama showrunners. In both discussions, the issue of fandom on the internet came up. The answers all struck a chord regarding the issues showrunners face with vocal fans, especially in this day and age of showrunners being part writer, part manager, and part online cult hero. A showrunner must balance creative license with fan feedback and often times it ends up being a no win situation.
The Showrunner and Today’s Geek Culture
This whole “showrunners being actively engaged with fans†is a relatively new concept. For years showrunners were hands off to the audience at large. The reasons would range from the risk of compromising creative freedom to getting too overwhelmed by the idea of filtering through the vast amount of fan noise that goes along with good feedback. Writers were meant to write and like to stay behind the scenes. David Shore (“Houseâ€) chooses not engage with fans, neither did Aaron Sorkin (“The West Wingâ€) and David E Kelley (“The Practiceâ€) when their shows were running.
The gap between fans and showrunner shrank when Joss Whedon started going to fan conventions and interacting with fans online. The geek culture that he and several other showrunners and writers have embraced has changed the way audiences watch TV shows. Fans feel like they’re a key to a show’s success and that sense of community generates a form of buzz that usually doesn’t happen with the “CSI†and “Law and Order†franchises. This buzz is a publicist’s dream if it catches on and often results in an under the radar show going a lot longer than initially predicted. However, there’s a downside and that’s the monster of the internet fandom itself. Such an open forum is hard to control and internet fandoms over the years have become notorious for bad behavior.
As vibrant as the online culture is for a TV show, TV executives are aware it only makes up a small part of the total TV audience. Very few of the top online buzz shows like “Chuck,†“Glee,†“Bones,†“Gossip Girl,†“Entourage,†“Smallville†and “Supernatural†have huge ratings. “Lost†was the one exception to the rule and their ratings weren’t the highest. These shows, despite their online popularity, usually don’t get people to watch other shows on their networks. This online fandom phenomenon is still very much a work in process and shows like these are handled with caution by networks.
Emmy Roundtable
Of all the showrunners included in the Hollywood Reporter Emmy roundtables, none knew more about taking lumps from a vocal fandom than Damon Lindelof of “Lost.†”With ‘Lost,’†he said, “within a couple of seasons it became necessary for us to start a dialogue with the fans because they were getting so frustrated. Someone needed to say, “Hey, it’s going to be okay and if you’re mad, be mad at us, don’t be mad at the show.” Doug Ellin of “Entourage,†who admitted he checks everything online, had a different view. ”It’s become so unbelievably negative that I use it to humble myself constantly.”
Lindelof accurately nailed the conundrum a modern day showrunner faces. ”The two questions we get asked the most often: “Are you making it up as you go along?” And they (fans) want that answer to be that we have a total plan, we’re not winging any of it. But the second question is, “How much input do the fans have?” And they want that answer to be a lot. How can both be true?”
Both can’t be true. After all, the creative process is not a rigid one. It starts out with an idea, a blueprint that can be modified. Let’s take shows like “Lost†with a sweeping mythology that runs throughout the series. All a showrunner really needs is a beginning and an end. With twenty plus episodes in a season in between, anything goes. Any good storyteller will follow a natural progression, accepting mistakes will be made because the creative process is also imperfect.
As Lindelof stated, a dialogue opened up with his fans of his show to help with confusion and frustration. However, that dialogue was meant more to soothe and assure rather than be a way to “fix†the show. Sure, some arcs like Nikki and Paulo fell flat, but that got corrected. Fan input helps with tweaks like that, but usually producers can tell when something isn’t working either. Several writers have admitted to using fan forums to do continuity checks, knowing that very devoted fans do their homework and prove to be very useful resources. However, fan comments won’t change the show drastically. They can’t. Probably because most fan feedback is splintered and varied. How could the “Lost†showrunners have pleased the Jack and Kate haters and the Jack and Kate lovers? A showrunner, being a writer first, knows they can’t please everyone and will drive themselves crazy trying.
Supernatural Fans and Their Demands
How does this all relate to “Supernatural,†another show with a vocal and often passionate online base? Let’s face it, it’s a challenging fandom. As a blogger for this show, I have gotten many messages and have read a lot of complaints about plot threads, dropped plot lines, character development and the direction of the show in general, not to mention the fans fighting each other constantly over those complaints. There have been times I’ve asked for fan questions for my interviews and instead have received a laundry list of demands and complaints to forward. I accept that’s a huge part of the internet culture, but if any fan expects to be taken seriously by showrunners and networks by voicing strong opinions in an online forum, it won’t happen.
For the truly frustrated, demands for change will get them nowhere. The two most common complaints I hear are, “Don’t they realize they’re ruining (insert plot or character here)” and “Don’t they listen to the fans?” The answer is simply no. Sure, the “Supernatural†producers, just like the “Lost†producers, realize and have realized some creative decisions are going to seem unpopular. They’re usually prepared for the backlash the second the script is finalized. However, often those unpopular decisions exist as a driver for plot and fans are asked to be patient. After all, this is a 22 episode season and there are 40 minutes to tell a story every week. The internet fandoms have made patience downright impossible.
For example, some people didn’t like Ruby. They didn’t like what she was doing and the way the writers tried to make her look good every week. In seasons three and four, vocal fans wouldn’t shut up about it and often demanded that Eric Kripke get rid of her. So what happened? A big payoff in the season four finale. She did have a purpose, she was evil. It was all a brilliant and carefully constructed scheme. It’s a big challenge to assure angry fans that they have to be patient, especially over multiple seasons, so the showrunner has the pressure of placating fans on top of making an episode every week under impossible time and budget deadlines. The latter always wins. Eric Kripke and his staff heard all those complaints, but they stuck to the plan and assured fans it all had a purpose. What do you know, it did.
Sadly, the lesson wasn’t learned. In season four there were a ton of complaints about Sam’s character and I even had a few very vocal fans beg me to send a message through my channels to Eric Kripke and his writers that they must fix Sam’s character now and that they have to listen to the fans. It’s interesting how Sam’s downfall in season four turned out to be the setup for his big redemption in season five. Those of us patient enough to see where that was going ended up very happy.
However, since “Swan Song†ended, now I’m reading demands from unhappy Dean fans. ”They ruined his character in season five, he didn’t live up to what was promised in season four, he shouldn’t have gotten depressed, he shouldn’t have let Sam go to Hell alone, why aren’t they listening to us?” Hmm, I do believe a season six is coming. We’ve found this show likes building their characters up after hitting a big low, so I don’t think Dean’s story is over. I’m sure nothing I say though is going to stop the bitterness from happening. That’s why in the no win situation, fan opinions become background noise.
Eric Kripke took advantage of a unique opportunity that other showrunners never had or would even dare try. He introduced the character of Chuck, an unlikely prophet that wrote the story of Sam and Dean. Chuck was the mouthpiece of Kripke and through that character he had his chance to address fan complaints and defend himself. Just by creating this character he proved he’d been listening to the fans. He just couldn’t give the answer some wanted to hear and hoped through Chuck they would see his perspective. When Chuck was writing the final story, Kripke likely wrote this for all showrunners, not just himself. “Endings are hard. Any chapped ass monkey with a keyboard can poop out a beginning, but endings are impossible. You try to tie up every loose end but you never can. The fans are always gonna bitch, there’s always going to be holes, and since it’s the ending its all supposed to add up to something but I’m telling you they’re a raging pain in the ass.â€
Now it’s Sera Gamble’s turn. Several fans are commenting they have very high hopes that Sera Gamble is going to listen to them and fix what’s wrong. Considering she’s been with the show from the very beginning, she’s been around the block a few times. Her filter is incredible and I don’t see her compromising the vision of the show because of factions of complaining fans. After all, Eric Kripke didn’t and it worked. Sure, Sera will probably carefully consider as she always has anything that will offend fans, but she won’t survive long as a showrunner by caving into excessive fan demands. She can tell the difference between “everyone†and a few vocal (and troublemaking) fans.
Despite the fan crazy that often hits this fandom, I still believe that a majority of the “Supernatural†fans are level headed and positive yet constructive in their feedback. I think Eric Kripke, Sera Gamble, and Ben Edlund believe that too. They also know most fans trust their judgment and won’t question their creative process. Thus the reality part of this reality check: Fans need to be patient and lower expectations. Excessive complaints won’t change the process. A showrunner wants to listen to their fans, but can’t.
So, here are my expectations for “Supernatural†season six and for any show that makes my must watch list. I’d like something watchable every week and I’ll be very happy if good stories are told. That’s the best I should hope for. Anything else will only be a setup for disappointment and failure. After all, these aren’t my shows. They belong to a brilliant creative trust that’s more talented than me in these things. I’m just content to go along with the ride. I am allowed once the finished work is aired to criticize or praise, to voice a concern and share my opinions with other fans, but demanding change will get me nowhere. I’m so grateful for that.
Thank you all showrunners for everything that you must juggle in these crazy times. Don’t change a thing.
Nicely said.
I’m one of the level-headed fans, who actually DON’T want showrunners to listen to fans – because, quite frankly, if that vocal minority of complaining fans wrote the show, the show would suck.
Wonderful and necessary article. I think people sometimes have a hard time seeing past their immediate reaction to an episode or news about an episode. I love your use of Ruby as an example of the importance of patience. Ruby was a tough character for a lot of people (myself included) but the payoff was epic and made for an incredible season finale. I find it so strange that fans can love this show so much but not trust it. I trust that Sera, Eric and everybody involved in making Supernatural care about the characters and care about the show. That’s all I really need.
Thank you for the article. It was wonderful. I often dont understand how people who are such big fans of a show are most often the ones who will tell you everything that is wrong with it. I am sorry to say that it seems to me these are often people who think they can do a better job that the professionals but unlike the professionals they never take the chance and put it all out there for everyone to criticize something that they put so much hard work into.
So from me THANK You Eric Sera and Ben for not listening.
wow 😮 bravo!! i’m totally agree with u 😀
As much as I know I’d LOVE to have showrunners listen to me as a fan, I have to say that I’m much happier to watch each week and go for the ride they have planned for us versus almost BEGGING for everything to go this way or that way. Yes, I have my complaints every now and then but while I’m happy to rant and rave right along with my fellow Supernatural fans (and the same went when I watched Lost too!), I’m happy to know that while the powers that be hear us, they don’t always do what a handful of us want. I mean, I didn’t like Ruby BUT I figured she had a purpose and the payoff was sweet in the end (it’s cruel but I have to admit I enjoyed watching her demise *L*). Just like I liked Jo and was glad to see her make it back (and as a better hunter to boot!) and her ultimate end did hit me hard. I’m just a fan, along for the ride and ready to watch every week until the show ends its run. If some of my ‘wishes’ wind up addressed on the show, great, but I’m not going to make demands on the showrunners either. I’m just going to continue to sit back and enjoy the ride and trust that I’ll be told good stories that are enjoyable to watch and that in the end, good things will happen. Patience pays off sometimes after all!
Here, here Alice. Well said.
My favourite saying is “Kripke is God, and I have faith.”
He still is, cause it’s his world but now Sera has job, and I have faith in her too.
Bring on Season 6!
Maybe they don’t exactly listen, but the Supernatural showrunners and the fans of the show seem to be on the same page in many things.
There is a reason why saying like “In Kripke we trust” are so often used in the Supernatural fandom.
And we also know, that being “Kripke’d” is the opposite of being “Joss’d”
Well said Alice.
I am amongst those who love the show and in awe of the showrunners and writers talent and phantasie to be able to come up with those stories.
Even so I sometimes don’t understand everything e.g. why introdruce the antichrist and not use him further during the apocaype I would never complain to the showrunners about it.
There are times when budget and timeline don’t allow to go into depth with certain things. So we will have to live with it the way it is.
I am gratefull that Eric, Sara, Ben and the others are blessed with their talents and I fully enjoy the ride with them.
great article!
The real contribution that online fandom makes to a show like Supernatural, or any of the other shows you mentioned, is to tell the ratings people ARE watching the show, and they’re the kind of viewers that vote with their wallets (DVD sales and conventions and whatever marketing craziness). The Neilsen ratings don’t tell the whole story of who is watching. The reason I became interested in participating in the online community is to make sure somehow that the powers that be knew the numbers of people who are interested, who participate in forum, read the articles. I often think if more of us got more vocal sooner, we’d still have Firefly.
As for the show runners and writers listening to the fans, don’t you think if the characters got “fixed” it would be a pretty dull show? If the show sucks, stop watching!
Wow! I had stop lurking just to commend you on a brilliant article! I totally agree with you on everything! :D!
I like the fact that show runners don’t always listen to fans, in my opinion, it would probably just ruin the show!
Coals to Newcastle here, but me too, I don’t think they should listen to a word we say, after all, they’re writing the damn thing and we’re just along for the ride!
Obviously, there is one huge exception to the above. Sera … Season 6. We want crocs. Big, dead, cross ones. Make it so.
PS. Also wet t-shirts. Lots and lots. Apart from that it’s all yours. 😆
Hi Alice
Really interesting article, thank you .
I am sure that TPAB do look at the websites where fans comment about every single detail of plot and character, but there is a reason why they write and produce the show , it`s their job and they are professionals. I expect the occasional seed of an idea may have been sown from a chance remark ,but if they took notice of some of the fandom out there we could have an hour of tv every week with the Js running around shirtless.
You also illustrate perfectly why I for one do not want them to allow fans to dictate the direction of the story when you talk of the complaints about Ruby & Sams character arc in season 4. That was the storyline ! Now again with complaints about season 5 Dean , if our poor boy had not become depressed and desperate that would have not been true to the development of the character in my opinion.
I also wonder why people watch if they are so unhappy and dont like the characters.
I have total faith in that wonderful creative team and even if Kripke is not running the ship on a daily basis I am sure that Sera Gamble, Ben Edlund et al will continue to do us all proud
Totally with you.
I find that some fans don’t really understand story and characters enough. They are so focused or often obsessed with what the characters want to understand that conflict via story or characters is a must to make the show interesting.
Ruby needed to be hated and that was why I loved her character and Bela Talbot’s character too. If they weren’t there to annoy the boys and cause conflict the show wouldn’t be so awesome.
The writers and producers know what they are doing. I know, I’m a writer. I’m sure they do read some fan comments. But they are not going to take all the comments in if they are silly. They know how the characters should act, they know them better than we do as fans. That is why sometimes I hate reading fan comments because most of them aren’t level headed and logical enough to voice a real comment of interest.
I have to admit though, we have the most loyal and dedicated fans. The show rocks and I’m looking forward to what Sera has in store.
Great article, Alice and SO TRUE. I always wondered if the showrunners listened to the fans. I know Kripke commented a number of times that he did. I remember one time, he responded to fans who were upset with dialog from ‘Yellow Fever’. I thought that fan outburst was silly, yet he did respond. And it didn’t matter to the fans anyway, they still kept it up. I can see why he wouldn’t want to do that again. Although it is sad in a way. Fans like to think they can have input into the show.
I’m hoping for a good season 6! As they are continuing with the angel/demon scenario, maybe a few of the ‘holes’ the fans are talking about will be answered. I just hope we see action and superpowers! 😆
Amen, Alice! I have a deep and abiding respect for showrunners, who have to steer through the conflicting currents of fan response to their shows. And I don’t want them to adjust their sails to every changeable fannish wind, not when they can see the journey’s course and end while the fans can’t.
One of my major irritations with fandom is its polarity, and a second is its impatience. I get particularly fed up with fans who react to rumors or spoilery teasers with the automatic assumption that they are (a) true and (b) will suck. It’s one thing to offer legitimate criticism of an episode that aired and didn’t work for you, and something totally different to prejudge that something you haven’t even seen is going to ruin the show. Sheesh.
Thanks for the reality check! Best of luck to Sera!
Ditto for what everyone has said so far.
Sure, there are little plot points & other things that I would have liked to see elaborated upon or explained better, but I’m along for the ride. Wherever the writers & showrunners take our Winchesters, I’m willing to follow. They haven’t let me down yet in the overall arc of the story these past 5 years, & I’m just happy that there’s more story to come!
It must suck to be a showrunner sometimes. I mean, obviously it’s awesome most of the time, to have creative license over this whole universe and these characters and have all these fans of your work who support and love you, but sometimes… To be doing the best you can do, to be really proud of an episode or a storyline or character, and then have fans rip it apart and complain about the smallest or most obnoxious things and tell you that they hate your decision and that you should change it must be awful. I mean, I complain a lot about a lot of things, including Supernatural, but I would never dare tell a showrunner what he or she should change. It’s their show for a reason, right?
I wholeheartedly support Sera Gamble for Supernatural Season 6! But as suggested Suze, crocs and wet t-shirts would be appreciated beyond belief.
Alice, this couldn’t have been said better. You are so right.
It was the rabid demanding fans that shooed me off from other sites (eg: Buddy) and landed me here on the most sane and sensible site there is. I’m so grateful for this site Alice.
If the powers that be paid attention to the demands of the demented public what kind of mishmash crap would we be watching? If we were watching in that case. I know there are Samgirls and Deangirls but when they become absolutely nitpicking rabid about their opinions and demands it is so very off turning and to me so very ridiculous.
I got so angry at Buddy TV when they had all those complaints to poor Eric about Dean being a dick! Good grief! He had to comment on that. And then that article writer actually posited that Jensen could be a pedophile! Comparing him with Duchovny and his sex addiction no less. Unbelievable! I emailed him what I thought of him and never went back to Buddy since.
I loved the way Dean’s character ended up this season as there was no way I wished for an apocalyptic showdown with him being merely a “condom” for Michael to wear while beating down Luci. I was worried but I shouldn’t have been as Kripke kept his word that “it’s all about family and free will”. He said something like that way back on the dvds for season 1. But even if it hadn’t been the way I wanted it then I believe in the end there would have been good reason and a payoff.
For instance Ruby. I didn’t know if she was trustworthy or not (and I really enjoyed Katie Cassidy’s portrayal) but that was part of the plot and I think the payoff was fantastic and I got such a great charge out of it when Dean skewered the lying bitch and Sam helped. That moment would have been missed entirely if they had listened to the Ruby haters and dumped the character. So, save us all from all fans who know way better than the creators!
The creators have done a great job and we have a wonderful show and loveable characters and I don’t see why that won’t continue if left in the creator’s hands.
Alice,
I love these Reality Checks you do and this one was no exception.
I have said it before that I CHOOSE to be on this ride called Supernatural and I can CHOOSE to get off it anytime I want. Therefore, I do not believe for a second I have any say in what’s going on nor do I have a right to barrage the internet, mail, phones or anything else with my list of demands to fix this or fix that.
I was amazed at some comments after Swan Song (not here) that stated so much canon had been thrown out the window in that episode or that the Impala was Dean’s car alone and how dare Kripke make it their home and how cruddy the build up was for Dean and then he was dumped off the story right at the end…I didn’t see any of that.
Swan Song was awesome in doing what Supernatural has always done, answering many questions, tying up loose ends (as many as possible) and dangling new threads and posing new questions. I’m excited for the future.
I trust Ms. Gamble to stay true to the show she has been a part of for five years now and have no concerns about her ability to carry on and delve into the new. As for whether she ‘listens’ I do believe she listens to the characters she’s created. I remember her speaking about I Know What You Did Last Summer (which would have been written prior to Lazarus Rising even airing)and how she fought for Ruby being inside a dead, coma patient’s body so that when Ruby was reintroduced in Lazarus Rising and all the Sam is a rapist comments hit the internet she’s already handled that…she knew that it would be an issue because it was an issue for her. She fought for that in the writers room and admitted that her fellow writers were a bit ‘disappointed (my word) that she needed to go that route but she was right and she didn’t make Sam into something he wasn’t.
I also remember posting a comment on a fandom site when so many fans were going on and on about how Supernatural belongs to them and that Kripke better do what they say…well, it doesn’t belong to them or me, it belongs to Kripke and co. They’re the ones who pour their livelihoods into this adventure, pose the ideas, risk the wrath of the networks and the failure of the show. It’s their project, their creativity, their vision and goal…it’s just a ride I choose to stay on until the day I choose to get off.
Thanks for another excellently written Reality Check
Way to go Alice! There’s a reason we all started watching Supernatural and it was because of Kripke & Company’s collective ideas, input and work…not our fellow fan’s ideas.
I’ve been confused and concerned about where story lines were going and how characters were/weren’t being used, but in the end, it’s always worked out. Part of what makes the show entertaining is seeing if/how my ideas of what should happen jive with what the writers actually write. Sometimes I’ve called the plot twists and sometimes I’ve been completely wrong, but it’s great fun either way.
Fandom is a tricky thing to be sure. On one hand it is fun to laugh, cry, squee, and even complain with others. On the other hand it is difficult to avoid the crazy.
People get very invested in these characters and it can sometimes override common sense. The showrunners are not going to jettison the plan they have spent years developing because one faction of fandom is unhappy with something. For every person that hates something there is another that loves it. Which side would they choose to listen to?
Bravo, Alice.
In the words of Dean Winchester: “for fans they sure do complain a lot…screw you…we lived it” (although in this context ‘we’ refers to the people who create Supernatural).
In the words of Ayn Rand (with the caveat that gender-sensitivity did not appear to be a theme):
“Men have been taught that it is a virtue to agree with others. But the creator is the man who disagrees. Men have been taught that it is a virtue to swim with the current. But the creator is the man who goes against the current. Men have been taught that it is a virtue to stand together. But the creator is the man who stands alone”
Also: “Don’t work for my happiness, my brothers–show me yours–show me that it is possible–show me your achievement–and the knowledge will give me courage for mine.”
And finally, once more in the words of Dean Winchester:
“Driver picks the music. Shotgun shuts his cakehole.”
Sera’s driving. Guess where the fandom is sitting…
Great article. Hopefully some of the armchair critics from other websites will read this and have a greater respect for the entire process of planning out a series like SN. It would be even better if they showed the people involved more respect, even if they disagree with the direction the writers have chosen.
Personally I would hate it if the writers started listening to obsessed fans because the show would become predictable and like Kamm said,’for every person who hates something there is another who loves it.’ Ricky Nelson had it right when he sang “You can’t please everyone so you got to please yourself”.
Looking forward to Season 6!
Alice,
I love your articles. I know you love Supernatural. But I do think it’s inaccurate to say Kripke didn’t listen to fans. He did. And he shouldn’t have.
If he had kept the reins and kept his head, we wouldn’t have had to suffer Chuck and Becky and the convention circuit. Kripke put himself (aka Chuck or God) and the fans into the show. He let the show become self-aware, and I believe that was a big mistake.
I guess it’s tempting for showrunners to look at feedback. Everybody likes to hear good things about their work. But if a showrunner can’t handle the constant fanwank about plots or characters or whatever, he or she should shield himself/herself from it for the good of the show. Instead Kripke chose to call his fans a raging pain in the ass, within the framework of his show. Understandable from an emotional point of view, but unprofessional. Fans should never become a part of the show. He could have said what he wanted to say to the fans in an interview, instead. His wonderful story about the brothers Winchester was not the place to do it.
It’s as if Kripke was creating a painting, hung it in an art gallery, and stood there working on it while admirers or detractors watched. And finally, when he got one too many detractors, he just made a big old swipe of brilliant orange down the middle of the painting, and said “There! Satisfied now??” and walked off.
Supernatural was the best creative show idea in decades. It outshone everything else. I loved it. The Winchesters, especially Dean, are unforgettable heroes. But I honestly, honestly think that some of the stuff Kripke threw in there was in response to fans that he wanted to piss off. And I believe the show suffered for it.
Well said, Alice.
In response to BestShowFan, I don’t believe Kripke called the fans a raging pain in the ass. He was talking about writing endings … “since it’s the ending its all supposed to add up to something but I’m telling you they’re a raging pain in the ass.â€
At least that’s how I took it. And speaking as a writer, I totally concur with Eric!
Can’t wait to see what surprises season six has in store for us!
Cheers.
I tend to just watch TV shows. Nothing I do or say will change the outcome, so what’s the point? There are too many wannabe scriptwriters out there who, I believe, do not realise the sheer amount of hard work involved in bringing one EPISODE to a close, let alone a whole season or five.
It’s sad that this was a necessary article to write. Too many fans believe the show owes them something for their continued viewing. The fact is, if you want to give a show your support, you have to do it unconditionally. You have to take the rough with the smooth and have faith that it will all turn out okay in the end.
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
The gist of this “article” is that people shouldn’t complain and accept everything a show ever throws at them because why? They owe that to the hardworking showrunners or something? What a completely immature article. If artists can’t handle criticism to their art they shouldn’t be artists. And if people who are in a fandom can’t handle criticism to a show they should just watch the show and stay offline.
Complaining fandoms go back to before the internet. And while we are on the subject, you say people shouldn’t demand change yet this article is doing exactly that. Irony FTMFL.
Mobiusklein, is that you? 😀
I admit I was an unhappy Sam fan for the first half of season 4 but I am thrilled with how the show played out Sam’s story. Patience is hard but I have more faith now that the writers know what they are doing. Not to say I think they never mess up but it is a continuing process and as you say they will make mistakes from time to time. I am just hoping that Sera really does know that the complainers are really a very small group of fans and in no way do they represent the rest of us. I am sure though that just reading their numerous posts will let her know that they are watching show in a way that cannot and should not be catered for.
Rose, you may be right; Kripke may have meant endings are a raging pain in the ass instead of fans. I guess that could be read both ways there. Although, personally I don’t doubt Kripke thinks the same of a lot of the more raging fans, and not without cause.
I understand and sympathize that he could be upset at so much of the criticism, and I agree a lot of it goes over the top. There have been characters and scenes or dialogue I absolutely did not like, but it’s his story. My strenuous objection is to the self-awareness, the putting of the fans in the show, his writing himself in as Chuck, and his talking directly to fans through dialogue.
There’s no such thing as universal approval. People in the arts who create things have to know this and live with it. I believe most fans are not online, and that all the stuff about fans was really directed at the online fandom. But it doesn’t make sense to (as Suzanne suggests) that you have to give unconditional support. You don’t. Sometimes concerns are very legitimate. And Kripke himself has said that he changed some things in response to fans.
When I watch the perfection that was “Faith” or “Dead in the Water,” and then watch a much later episode, I could just cry. I’m so disappointed. And yes, I’ve already stopped watching. Haven’t seen an episode since the middle of Season 5. I do read the reviews, though, to find out what’s happening to my boys.
I know what you mean, Bestshowfan, I thought the whole Chuck/Superfan thing was hilarious to start with but it palled pretty fast and I can’t watch the SPN convention episode for cringing. You can see the temptation … They’re having a poke at me, I’ll have a poke back … But it weakens the story if you overdo it. I loved Chuck as a whiney, weasely, angel-ridden wreck but as a Voice-of-God narrator he screwed-up Swan Song for me.
So basically, of course people should bitch and complain and grumble, that’s what most of us come on-line for! ( See previous paragraph ) No-one’s saying otherwise … The show’s creatives should ignore us though and listen to the little voices in their heads or you end up with a horrible Please-Everyone-Mess. we do have the ultimate power of veto, you know, if the show’s really getting up your nose, just turn it off!
I know exactly what you mean, Alice. This is precisely the reason why I left fandom completely save for this website. I don’t even go to TWOP anymore. The high expectations would rub off on me and raised my own expectations of the show to the point where I think it was impossible for them to please me.
All until the evening before I sat down to watch Swan Song. I went for a walk around the neighborhood and, in my head, told myself that it would suck. I wouldn’t like Castiel. The fight between Michael and Lucifer would be lame. The ending wouldn’t be right. It would all just fall flat. But I was willing to accept all of that before I watched it so I wouldn’t dwell on it so much after it ended.
It helped so much. Yes, there are still some things I didn’t like. Jared’s acting, for one. The graveyard scene from the time Dean showed up to the time Sam and Michael fell is another. But the ending, from the time Dean was kneeling over where Sam fell to the very end, I had this overwhelming feeling of satisfaction. It has helped me look past a lot of what I didn’t like throughout season 5 and feel genuinely excited for next season.
So my only real expectations for next season is a good story and good characters. I’m already in love with Castiel again after staying away from the hate for a while. Dean is coming up next, I can feel it. I don’t think I’ll ever love Sam completely, but I see new change in his character that I can definitely learn to appreciate and respect.
In Sera I trust!
These reality checks are a necessity, I’d say,especially in lieu of some comments here. So – thank you Alice for your thoughts.
I have always loved the show and never faltered in my joy of watching it, but you know that. There might have been scenes or characters I was not really enthusiastic about, but that’s what I experienced when reading books, watching movies, plays or listening to music. In almost every album I own (except a few) there is probably one song I don’t like as much. But that doesn’t change how I feel about the artist and nobody can deliver 150% all the time. Artists sometimes get unsure of where to go with their work or try experimenting and sometimes it works, sometimes not so much.
With this show there was not much I would want to change. I even liked that Ruby was in there, though I didn’t like her. In real life, I’m sure, she and I would have had some serious disagreement. But I loved what they did with the character, her twists and turns. And she was played beautifully by both actresses.
Should there be some nuancec in coming episodes I might not like – so what. I know that, for the most part, those will serve some purpose. I don’t want to waste my time complaining about something I have no power to influence, nor is it my place to do so. I want to enjoy a well-written, well-acted show that will keep me – no doubt – glued to the screen in episodes to come.
And those fans who feel the need to raise their voices to demand whatsoever… well, it’s their own time they are investing here and it’s their own business. Since most showrunners are not really dealing with that, it’s hardly anything else than waste of time and energy. As long as it’s done with respect and politely, I don’t really care. I get upset when I read opinions that are way below any level of decency. You can’t replace a lack of civility with a big mouth.
I’ll stop now. Thank you again, Jas
Intresting article. I can see why it would be difficult for a showrunner and I truly don’t envy their job. And I wish Sera all the luck in the world next season.
That being said, I don’t entirely believe that the SPN writers don’t listen to fans. They would not scour the internet sites and know so much about fandom(down to the names of actual posters being inserted into the episodes)otherwise. There were a number of very specific, vocal Samfan complaints that were rectified last season. The plot for 5.18 was changed from what Kripke had described to EW. I suspect it was because certain fans raised an outcry: even McG in his video at the 100th episode party admitted that the staff listen to fans and things were changed in Season 5 as a result.
If this is true, I’d hate to think that it really would only apply to vocal Sam fans. And now that Sam’s had such a terrific storyline/ending to the mytharc, unhappy Dean fans are out of luck and their concerns won’t even be considered. If Sera listens and then decides that those concerns are not really an issue, that’s cool. At least then both sides were equally heard. But it’d be sad to just blow off the Dean fans entirely under the pretext of “well,showrunners don’t listen anyways” when there’s a lot of evidence that speaks otherwise.
It’s too late to change what quite a few of the Dean fans were upset about in S5, considering the mytharc is water under the bridge. But even if Sera just gives Dean his own, solid, equally important to Sam’s storyline that’s not later recanted (and doesn’t make Dean apologize 50 times next season or get his ass kicked every other episode), that would take care of many of those Dean complaints without needing to make any kind of huge changes. That really doesn’t seem all that unreasonable, imo.
If Kripke and Sera didn’t listen to fans, then season 5 may have actually been better. But since they did just that, to the point of going down the Samfan wishlist and checking off everything the fans wanted, I do believe they not only listen to fans, but listen to their favorite fans.
What this article is saying, as far as I can see, is that it’s ok for the samfans to ask and be given, but the Dean fans should just shut up, since they won’t be listened to.
Sadly, you are right, which is why season 6 is off my list of things to watch. From what I can see, the show has given me a great lesson. Don’t bother watching Dean fan, we are not the favored ones.
Interesting article Alice and I agree with your general point. But I do wonder why you didn’t write this article when you were happily presenting that laudrey list of sam fan complaints to Sera Gamble.
But I suppose I can understand your wanting the showrunners not to listen to the criticisms now that you and your fellow Sam/JP fans have gotten everything you wanted — Sam front and center and Dean useless except for his “epic” love for St. Sam.
I don’t usually come to this site since it’s well-known as a staunch Sam-girl site, as much as it is also very well-known that you did present Sera Gamble with a “laundry list” of Sam-girl complaints when you interviewed her. So trying to say that fans who might have other kinds complaints should just shut up and trust in the system is more than a little hypocritical. Fans have every right to post on boards or write letters and say what they liked and disliked, and maybe some of that will get heard, and maybe some of it won’t. But one thing is for certain, no showrunner can put on this or any show without the fans or the audience. Just doesn’t happen.
And because of those postings and those letters, TPTB are very well aware that the finale, and the fifth season overall, did not exactly go over all that well. Neither the finale or season were the resounding critical success that the fourth season was, nor were the ratings as high (and with the move to Friday, ratings will drop off more). Even Misha Collins at his meet and greet at the Asylum Con admitted to the participants that they all know the finale was “hated” by “many” fans. That accounts for more than just Dean fans, even though, yes there are a lot of Dean fans. I personally was surprised how many Sam fans actually hated “Swan Song” too. So Gamble et. al. really can’t afford to go out of their way to piss off any fans who are sticking around for season six – and they’re not all staying with the show anymore.
Therefore, I do think they might want to listen a little to what didn’t work and why so “many” fans “hated” the finale and the fifth season in general. Yes, I agree it’s very important that they trust in their story, their process, and their characters, and I think that’s a large part of why the fifth season failed in a lot of ways – they clearly didn’t trust in their story given all the changes, stops and starts, and retconning of not just older mytharc, but mytharc they claimed to be setting up from episode to episode within the same damn season. And given the author’s bitching about fans and crying about how he can’t please them all in “Swan Song”, it’s pretty clear there wasn’t a lot of confidence in that script to begin with. You don’t include a whine about the audience in a script before the audience has even had a chance to see the episode. Maybe if Mr. Kripke had complained less about the fans and simply wrote a better script to begin with, it would have gone over more successfully with the audience in general than it did.
I admit I’ve lost a lot of faith in these writers, yet I still hope for an improvement and some rectifying of the many missed opportunities, as well as a lot more respect shown all their characters, particularly that of Dean Winchester, who I do feel they kicked to the curb. And without the Dean-half of the equation, they wouldn’t have a show nor a sixth season.
I’ve been a fan of this show since the day it premiered, and I’ve even pimped the show to friends. So if I’m disappointed, then that’s not me expecting too much. I have legitimate reasons for being disappointed, and it would not serve the producers of this series to dismiss all complaints or not understand that fans who weren’t happy have valid reasons for their unhappiness.
Hi Alice
Thank you for the article, I found it very interesting.
I have to admit I don’t understand all the politics and ins and outs of the entertaining business. I’m not even sure I fully understand the job that the ‘showrunners’ has. But I’m pretty sure these people are professional enough to know what is viable and what is to be taken with a grain of salt. And hopefully realise that they can’t please everyone all the time.
As a viewer my bottom line is if I like/love a show I will continue to watch it. If I don’t, I move on to something else. If I should fall out of like/love with a show then I will stop watching. Plain and simple.
For me I have turned my TV on every Thursday night to watch the ongoing saga of ‘TWO’ characters that I fell in love with. TWO brothers that have endured and lost so much in their lives. TWO brothers that have been hero’s, been victims, been flawed and have been human. For me majority of the episodes have been a hit, but sometimes there is the odd miss. And truthfully even those misses, I was still able to get some benefit out of it.
As for the websites, I have never gone to any website for any show other than for Supernatural. And this is the only one I still go to.
Not because I’m a Sam girl, not because I’m a Dean girl, but because I’m a Winchester girl, because I am a SUPERNATURAL fan.
To me websites are supposed to be fun.
They are supposed to be a place to be able to converse intelligently and respectfully with others. To be able to share ones thoughts and opinions with fellow followers of the show, whether it is to say yah or nay.
Not a place to just bitch and complain and to lay vulgar insults.
Not a place to shed only negativity and spout off how the show should be run and how it should be written, just because it’s not going in the direction that one prefers.
Not a place to forever be pitting one brother over another. Forever accusing bias and favouritism, because they can’t admit to themselves that they are the ones bias. Because if they weren’t they’d see the overall picture of this series and see that its about TWO brothers, not one.
And believe it or not one can express displeasure of an episode, or article without being insulting or disrespectful.
After all we are supposed to be adults here… right?
I don’t agree with this article at all. The writers/producers themselves have stated that this show is written for the fans and they want to hear from us. If we tell them what we’d like to see on the show and there is enough of a consensus, Kripke has stated that he’s made changes in the past because of that, so if there’s a big reaction to something and it elicits many comments, posts, letters, or whatever, it’s only natural to expect change considering it’s often been their MO, series-long.
Thanks everyone for all the comments! I know this seems like common sense, but just some of the stuff I’ve been reading lately! I know, most of it is probably just troublemakers stirring up crap, but hey, it provides a discussion point.
You know, for those frustrated Dean fans, I’m not sure I get why you think that they “listened” to the Sam fans. It’s my understanding Sam’s redemption is season five was always planned, especially when season four was being mapped out. I also think they have a plan for Dean in season six. I’ll be finding out more directly from Sera, Ben, and Eric at Comic Con in a few weeks, but I’m willing to bet the farm there’s a plan.
If anyone read the article carefully, I never said that showrunners completely ignore fans. I used the Lost example of Nikki and Paulo. Fan input is needed for tweaks as well as continuity checks. Plus, writers like to know if they’re headed in the right direction. Some heavily requested plots might also be worked in if possible during a standalone (body swap) where they have time to do that. The “not listening” is the big picture, the major plot. Thus, the example of Ruby.
I’ve very excited about season six, and more info will be here before we know it!
I just wanted to add my voice to Alice’s. I feel that as a regular to this site, I want to show my support of Alice and what goes on here.
I am a SUPERNATURAL FAN. Sam, Dean, Bobby, Castiel, Ellen, Jo, John, Ash, all of the characters. I love all of them. Well, maybe not Ruby, but she was necessary to drive the story forward, so I will accept her at least.
But there is it. I am a fan of the WHOLE show, not some segment of it. That is why I came to this site. Followed Alice over here from Blog Critics. She writes about this show without all the fan drama. We can talk about what we do and don’t like without coming to fisticuffs.
Aggressive, accusatory behaviour is not welcome.
Hi Alice
Just had to say a few things here
Karen, Hallelujah! A voice of reason, and Tigershire, thank you too.
I just do not understand why anyone who no longer watches the show or obviously does not like the direction it has taken bothers to post comments and read the articles about it .
I love the fact we can have informed and sensible discussions here and that people and their opinions are all respected, it really upsets me when personal attacks are made on anyone, be they overt or veiled and I know that I am not alone in feeling this way as others have also been very angry by some previous posts.
I have never felt this to be a `Sam-girl` site. Both brothers have had wonderful articles written about them pointing out both their virtues and faults which is the reason that we love them both and the reason why the show works so well.
I would like to again thank you Alice for all your hard work and hope you know how much we do appreciate all you have done here
I’m becoming sick and tired by now of explaining that this is not a Sam-Girl site… If anyone reads the articles carefully they will notice that we might have our preferences occasionally, but there are other sites and other articles that emphasize their love of one character and their hate of the other, as if liking one has to mean excluding the other.
Instead of reading the stuff we post here with care, a few sentences are taken out of context and turned into some alleged canon of this site that has tried to cover all kinds of subjects, without a clear preference or partiality.
I have expressed my love for Sam several times, that I feel more attracted to Sam than to Dean (but only on a very personal level as he would be the kind of man I could easily fall for, never in terms of making Sam’s journey more important than Dean’s – that we even have to talk about this, is ridiculous), and I have written several articles that dealt with Dean’s story, making clear how much I love the character, too. Even though I sometimes sigh over Jared’s good looks, I have called Jensen ‘one of the most handsome men I have ever met’.
Why is it so difficult to understand, that one can truly love both characters and actors without feeling the need to slant the other? Why can’t we tease one another lovingly and respectfully about being Sam- or Dean-Girls without taking it too seriously and describing a whole site as clearly biased – which it is not.
Also, I don’t understand how someone can say that Sam ended up front and center and Dean ‘useless’ (a fine way of disrespecting both characters) – I hope I am not the only one to see that Dean has never been useless neither in terms of storytelling nor in terms of his importance to his brother, his family, even the fans. Without Dean Sam’s journey (which is a classical Campbell-story, just like Luke Skywalker in Star Wars) would have never been possible and Dean needed his brother to complete his own journey.
I can’t believe that we keep running into Sam vs Dean discussions. There seems to be a huge demand for that within the fandom, as some comments here show. Why should we keep supplying that? As a writer to this clearly non-biased site (biased only in that we choose to discuss the show respectfully and on a common-sense level) I feel offended to be called biased. If people reading what we write here don’t manage understand our point, yet, I invite you all to read the articles again. If necessary so often till you get it that there is no pro-Sam nor pro-Dean opinion that would not allow the other as well.
With an article that was meant to illuminate the relationship of showrunners and fans, we ended up again with discussing Sam vs. Dean opinions. I’m guilty of that, too, for defending our site and myself. But, folks, is this really necessary? Adults, yes?
Thanks, Jas
I simply can’t be bothered with all this human-centic nonsense. personally the only reason I’m watching is Bobby’s dog ( mind you, his story arc has been a bit thin of late … )
I’m an assumed and passionate Samgirl, though I love Dean too and think that they complete each other. The show is about the TWO of them, not about one or the other. I don’t need to explain why I prefer Sam, I just do and it’s my right, as is other people’s right to prefer Dean. And I must add that that to prefer Dean is a right, not an obligation.
I became used to be attacked in many sites when I expressed my preference. I want to forget much of what I heard in there just because I dare to be a Samgirl. So I was so relieved to find this site here where you can read intelligent comments and read great articles, regardless of personal preferences. And who doesn’t have them? But sadly, it seems THEY found this site too. :cry::
I read that comment about it is well-known in ‘out there [my words] that this is a Sam-centric site. Blah, blah, blah. Obviously the person has never read the articles here because aside from the annual indulgence in the enigma of Sam Winchester’s Hair I don’t see it and one article out of hundreds does not a centric-site make.
Also, as someone with an admitted Dean-girl bias I feel most comfortable here. I can write about Dean and Sam with ease because that is what Supernatural has at its core. If I focus an article on either one it is likely to address either an arc or a particular trait. As for anything else here, it’s fun and Supernatural-centric pure and simple.
Ignore the whines of a wannabe-troublemaker who came here purely because the title of the article caught their eye (How I don’t know since they suggest that they do not come here often, why bother) and then decided to stir up the muck and slither back away.
Don’t make me pull out my stack of facts again like I did in Supernatural and Minorities and take a look at every article ever written here to determine how many are Sam-centric and how many are Dean-centric.
(Really, please don’t make me)
Although now that Alice and Jenna have made the author pages with every article ever written easily found…it wouldn’t be so hard…still, I have other things to do! 😉
😀
Hello Alice,
I am wondering if there will be an article about Dean in Season 5 similar to the one about Sam:
https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-list/category8/9467-a-deeper-look-at-season-five-sam-winchester.html
I looked through your article archives and could not find anything, but perhaps I missed it?
I am having a hard time agreeing with some people here who say that fans of Dean have no right to express their concern about Dean’s role on the show, the exact same way that some Sam fans expressed their concern about Sam’s role during season 4. And I do remember reading *many* complaints from Sam fans during season 4.
Personally I am very much looking forward to a real arc for Dean next season, similar to Sam’s redemption arc of this season. I think Dean deserves his own redemption arc. I’d hate to think that Michael’s words to Dean in Swan Song: “you’re not part of this story”, meant to tell us that Dean no longer had any importance in our mytharc storyline (other than being Sam’s brother).
It’s not that I personally wanted Dean to be Michael’s vessel in the end, but I didn’t think that he would be actually replaced by Adam for that role. I was disappointed by Swan Song because I felt that Dean had little to do while Sam acted and made decisions and inevitably fulfilled his destiny. I enjoyed Sam’s arc but I felt it was rather disappointing that Dean really had no other role than to just follow Sam around and of course to get beaten to a pulp.
I would like to see a storyline/arc for Dean that is more than merely reacting to Sam’s “destiny” arc and I’m hopeful that next season arc for Dean will be equally important as Sam’s destiny/redemption arc has been. I’ve always like Sera Gamble as a writer so I do have high hopes for next season, but I also realize that Sera tends to favor Sam so I just hope that Dean won’t be kicked out of his own arc again, as I believe he was in the latter half of season 5.
So Alice, I do realize you are a self-professed Sam girl, but I would like to read your point of view about Dean in season 5. Thank you.
Oh, Alice! Sorry to say “They’re Hee-eere” !
I haven’t enjoyed some of the latest postings here at all.
What a bunch of downers! I’m sure since they are so free at expressing all their negativity that they won’t mind having some thrown back at them!
I love Dean Winchester desperately and would jump his bones in a minute if it was possible. I have NEVER seen Dean as useless! Not ONCE through all five seasons. I was delighted in “Swan Song” that it was Dean as the catalyst in coming to be with Sammy at the critical moment knowing he couldn’t save him and just wanting to be with him at the end. If people were disappointed that Dean wasn’t just a meat suit for Michael and a mighty battle between archangels was avoided, then tough! If they paid attention to what this show has been about since the beginning they wouldn’t have been disappointed.
This is a show about family, about two brothers who have both suffered great tribulations and have a great love for each other that pulls them through every time. I LOVE that relationship. Without one or the other what kind of a lame ass show would this be?
As far as I am concerned I am not one bit interested in the complaints of either a rabid Dean-girl or Sam-girl fan. They only annoy me and that does not lead to any understanding of their so-called opinions.
I may adore Dean but I love Sammy and the two Winchester brothers are front and centre in my thoughts about this wonderful show. Kripke noted on the dvds for season one that he had lucked out with the two J’s and their portrayal of the brothers. That instead of concentrating on the MOTW they were first and foremost concentrating on the brothers and their relationship. He knew a good thing when he saw it and built upon it for the next 5 years. Thank you Eric and the other writers. You have never let me down yet.
And Alice! The accusation that this is a Sam-girl site is absolutely ridiculous! Phfffffftt! I say to those accusers.
It’s not often that I get this angry on this site. Hopefully those (and they know who they are) will slither back to their biased sites and console each other there.
To Sam and Dean Winchester. The greatest set of brothers to grace my TV. I love you both and will continue to. Neither one of you is in the least “useless”!
Yikes! I had this gigantic post defending our site and saying what I think about the negativity and Sam and Dean-girls ridiculousness, and it just disappeared when I hit post!
Waaaah! I’ll never be able to duplicate it. I was on a roll! LOL!
Just let me say that I NEVER have seen Dean as “useless” and I was delighted with his part in “Swan Song”.
Hey! My post showed up after all! Yay!
Sorry about the kerfuffle.
“We’ve found this show likes building their characters up after hitting a big low, so I don’t think Dean’s story is over.”
I would have really liked you to ask the writers why a season and a half of the Show was forgotten in the worst finale in the Show’s history. I don’t regard expecting certain plot points that have been dangled precisely to keep a certain contingent of fans hanging in there through an appallingly paced season to be fully realized as somehow being a bad fan. Or as complaining. I regard it as expecting the Show’s creators to follow through on the mytharc they themselves conceived. Instead of forgetting it ever existed – like they did in a badly acted and illogical finale that ended a season and a half of Dean’s story with no payoff whatsoever.
“You know, for those frustrated Dean fans, I’m not sure I get why you think that they “listened” to the Sam fans”
Oh, Alice, this is just TOO! rich-even for you…
The show definitely jumped the shark when Dean killed Tom the Demon way back in Devil’s Trap, that’s just fucking obvious.
“It’s my understanding Sam’s redemption is season five was always planned, especially when season four was being mapped out.”
Maybe next time you get with the writers you could ask them about what they always had planned for Dean when S4 was being “mapped out”.
If I hadn’t seen this on twitter, I wouldn’t know this site existed. 😉 Anyway, I’m definitely one of those fans who really likes Dean Winchester and thought he was supposed to be as important as Sam. I thought this was a two-lead show. And I’m not going to apologize for liking Dean – as I understand it, he and the actor are hugely popular. And I used to like the brotherly bond – but, honestly, after season five I started to wonder if I was ever supposed to think these two even liked each other, much less should be around each other. Honestly, I’m just confused what I was supposed to take away from the last five seasons. What happened to “Two brothers, one destiny”? Come on, was I really supposed to think that always meant Sam and Adam, and that Dean’s only purpose in this whole thing was to be Sam’s annual punching bag? That’s what they meant when they told us Dean was a “young man with an important purpose” in “Faith”? This is what he was brought out of hell for and was being tested for in season four? Not to be Michael’s vessel or to have anything to do with the apocalypse, but to stand there and simply have the crap kicked out of him, again, and again, and again, and … well, it’s old. Seriously, no one needs to be tested by demons and angels to be a punching bag that is worth less than a hunk of metal from Detroit and a little plastic toy. So I feel pretty stupid and quite duped by these producers after all this time. But I guess if Kripke and Gamble are telling me that Dean isn’t an important character on this show and the brotherly relationship is a joke, then they’re also telling me they don’t need my Nielsen viewership anymore. So I deleted my Tivo pass after the finale. Ah, well, I usually watch whatever is on SyFy on Friday nights anyway.
To Alice — thank you for the link to the Dean article! I appreciate it! 🙂
To elle2 — It’s really not cool to refer to people who express concern about aspects of the show as “whiner wannabe-troublemakers”. 🙁
To Bevie — I am not disappointed because Dean wasn’t Michael’s meat suit. I am disappointed because while Sam has always had a “destiny” storyline and a firm place in our mytharc for 5 seasons which we saw come to it’s conclusion in Swan Song as he took on Lucifer, Dean’s role became diminished to basically that of “supporter of Sam”, IMO.
Both brothers should support one another, of course, but if Sam has this grand destiny storyline which ultimately came to fruition as he heroically took on Lucifer and sacrificed himself for the greater good, then I don’t understand why Dean cannot have an *equally* grand destiny in which he too is shown to be heroic for the greater good and not just as the supporter of Sam and Sam’s destiny?
So, for me, it’s not Dean as Michael’s meatsuit as the issue, although for Dean to be so easily replaced by his *other* brother as Michael’s vessel really kind of bothered me, TBH.
Sam has been the one with the special powers and special destiny for 5 seasons. I thought Dean might have a special destiny of his own as well (finally), but it seems his role was just to be there for the “special” one. I thought maybe that Dean would be the only one who could use the rings to open the portal, but no, it seems Sam could do that as well. The angels really didn’t need Dean after all because they had Adam. Sam was powerful enough to overcome Lucifer on his own. Dean was there to support Sam but to me that’s not an equally important role as Sam’s in our mytharc. So I’m sorry, that may be enough for you, but I feel Dean deserves to be an equal in our story. He deserves to have his own “specialness” and importance in the mytharc story.
Dean’s role of “big brother” has been diminished as well since he spent a lot of last season apologizing to Sam for his big-brotherly behavior. Not that I blame Sam for wanting to be treated as an adult and not as a kid brother, but it just seems that everything about Dean’s place in the show was taken away from him bit by bit last season… his role as the big-brother/protector (Sam no longer wanted this from Dean), his role as the “righteous man who starts it must end it” (this turned out to be Sam), and his role as Michael’s sword (this was taken by Adam) — all of these roles were taken from Dean last season and I’m just left wondering what Dean will have left in season 6?
And of course I have no idea what will happen next season, but some Sam fans have commented on various forums that they really want the show to explore Sam’s powers and for him to use them more and maybe even become more powerful after being in hell. But some of these same fans say that Dean should never have powers of his own. Well, to me Sam using his powers to kill demons while Dean is just human like any other hunter out there sets up our story once again to be Sam the super-powered one and Dean as less capable by comparison.
I’m not saying Dean should have powers or special abilities, but I do think it will be unfair if it’s perfectly fine for Sam to continue to kill demons using his special powers while Dean has nothing that is uniquely *his* to bring to their hunting partnership. And I have no problem with Dean being a human hunter like Bobby. However, Bobby isn’t one of the lead characters and he isn’t the partner of someone who has special powers.
Sorry for the Sam vs. Dean it was not my intention. I love both Sam and Dean. And sorry to be a “troublemaker” here and I do like Sera Gamble very much, however, I still do have some concerns about Dean’s role next season and I don’t think these concerns are unreasonable. YMMV though.
Hi, Chris_J,
My whiner-wannabe troublemaker comment was strictly positioned in response to the comment by PamB which has no basis in fact whatsoever but is purely full of anger and designed to provoke.
I don’t have any problem whatsoever with articulate, fact-based, even and constructive opposition, discussions, frustrations or vents. They’re completely cool and more than welcome.
But the commenter who earned my ‘nickname’ came here and gave vent in a nasty, unfactual attack on the site and all who write for it which I find untenable.
Your comments are completely coherent, based on the story and also reflect your wishes and desires for Dean that in no way maligns Sam or the writers or this site.
There is a great difference between the welcome opinions you expressed and the one who simply attacked because they are a whiner-wannabe troublemaker.
I hope that clarifies the distinction. Please go back and read PamB’s comment and then read yours…there is a world of difference; one is welcome (yours and others who clearly express themselves without attacking) and one is not.
🙂
What interesting comments! I’ve actually only visited this site a few times, following links from other places. I never thought it was a “Sam site.” In fact, I am always confused and full of wonderment that fans can be so vociferous in their preference for either Sam or Dean. Never really understood that splitting of loyalty or affection for one character over another. I love both boys equally. I’ve never looked for any kind of evidence that one was more important to the story than another; I get the feeling that maybe some fans have obsessed about it to the point that they might be able to instantly say, down to the second, how much screen time each boy got. Amazing. Well, for me, if anything, I think I’m more an Impala gal, if I have to pick a favorite.
Now, I do have some “non-favorites.” And you’ll be able to tell who is not my favorite when I say that in the above comments I keep reading “Two brothers, one fate” type remarks, and I can’t keep myself from thinking, “Yeah, that’s what it should be, alright: TWO brothers. Sam and Dean. But, it’s really three now, isn’t it??” A huge and unhappy shift for me.
As for not understanding why anyone who has stopped watching the show would still bother to read articles and comment, I can only say that I fell so in love with Kripke’s wonderful story and with Sam and Dean, that I have to know what finally happens in the end. I didn’t stop watching out of spite or meanness or pettiness. I miss my boys, yes I do. But too many things happened that I just disliked so intensely, I couldn’t bear to see it play out on the screen anymore. Doesn’t mean I’m not still emotionally invested in these two guys. I guess I have Jared and Jensen to thank for that. Their chemistry onscreen as the brothers was awesome; they made their characters unforgettable, and I have to know the end. So, I read the recaps and reviews and I get the basic information without having to watch things I know would turn me into a screaming meemie. Such is the power of Kripke’s story and the TWO Winchester brothers. It doesn’t make me happy to be so disappointed in so many things the show has done. But, I have to know the end; and I think my feedback or comments have as much validity as anyone else’s. And I appreciate having forums like this one that allows me to give my opinion.
(Edited by Alice. I already warned, no Sam fan vs. Dean fan stuff.)
Well, Kripke granted the that favor, Sam was the only hero of the show. Congrats in alienating everyone who may have thought that Dean was important. Apparently, only the ratings from the Dean fans were important enough for Kripke to reach his goal.
I cheer the fan who said that if Kripke really didn’t realize what a god-awful finale he had, he wouldn’t have had to apologize for it before hand.
As for your comment, Alice, about for everyone that disliked the finale, there were two that did, I would say that from the statistics, it seems more for everyone that did like it, there were two that did not.
‘in this fandom birds of a feather flock together.’
This is precisely why you say you apparently see more comments in favor of the finale than against it, Alice – this site has a Sam-bias that is well-known in fandom, and your reviews make your own bias glaringly obvious (for proof, one has to look no further than your verdict that Dean’s behavior in Sex and Violence was worse than Sam’s). That’s the point at which I stopped expecting any kid of balanced critique from you. Since the finale totally cut Dean out of the mytharc, it stands to reason that most of the minority of fans who liked Swan Song are Sam girls. Your own review of that episode made *no reference whatsoever* to the fact that *everything* we were told about Dean was for nothing. A good three-quarters of fandom thought the finale was tripe and you are probably well aware of that since TWOP and LJ was buzzing with discontent after it aired and still is from time to time. How about representing us to the Show’s creators? Then your claims to be fair and balanced might actually be believable.
This is a link to an insightful analysis about Swan Song, for those who are interested. It shows how each brother was important in the end of the mytharc and how it’s NOT about Sam’s importance versus Dean’s importance, but rather about TWO brothers against everything.
http://www.sequentialtart.com/article.php?id=1747
My frustration with Dean’s lack of an active role in the finale isn’t about Sam’s storyline. I understand that Sam’s fall/redemption was always supposed to be the backbone of the the mytharc so there had to be a dramatic/emotional payoff for that too. Where I feel very disappointed in how there had been promises after season 3 of including Dean as an equal lead character, instead of the sidekick Kripke had originally envisioned. Even Jensen had been excited that Dean would finally have something more to do than just be Sam’s brother.
And for the last two years, I’d really been happy with how both brothers’ storylines were balanced and important in their own individual ways. But then, imo, the last three episodes very definitively took Dean out of any real active role (“you’re no longer a part of this story”, Death telling Dean he needed to step back since Sam was the only one who could stop Lucifer, for example) and put him squarely back into that supportive position again. Sure, I think Dean was heroic. And yes, his presence was a catalyst in helping Sam finish his hero’s journey. But there have been plenty of supporting characters who have likewise influenced the direction of the storyline, like John, Bobby, Cas, Ellen & Jo. But, in the end, it was still up to only Sam to do it all: overcome Lucifer, maintain that control long enough to activate the rings, throw himself into the Pit and take Michael with him. And what was Dean doing all that time? Sitting on the ground, watching.
I don’t care whether or not Dean ended up as Michael’s meatsuit- if he had, I’m sure Kripke would have figured out a good way to explain why Dean said yes, just as he did for Sam. And it would have been cool to see Jensen rock the part. But I’d have been perfectly fine with Dean having something else to do too. Be the only one who could activate the rings or the one to close the cage door…. anything to explain why, as was mentioned in an earlier post, Dean needed to be pulled out of Hell in the first place. As it turned out, Dean could have been in a coma for the last two seasons, woken up just in time to drive in to interrupt the feuding archangels and position the Impala for Sam to see it. I’m being facetious but from a storytelling perspective, that’s about all he was needed for since the Righteous Man/Michael Sword/Dean’s guilt and own need for atonement suddenly disappeared without explanation.
I could see that for those who are primarily interested in the brotherly bond, these kind of issues might not be of much concern. But we all watch for different things and to me, the brothers’ individual arcs are also important. The bond isn’t the only thing that defines either as individuals or as participants in the overall narrative. If it had been Dean who’d done all the heavy lifting while Sam just watched and gave moral support, it likewise would have felt unbalanced to me. That too would have unfairly negated the foundation that had been laid for Sam’s storyline.
And it’s true, Alice, that there’s always season 6. But the mytharc was the core of the show for five years and that’s now over. We ended that chapter and are moving into the next one, having established that Sam is the Chosen One who’d been watched for years by Azazel’s minions. He is the whose story pushed the central mytharc forward for five years. He has special powers. He was the only one strong enough to be Lucifer’s true vessel. He was able to overpower Lucifer and save the world. Whereas Dean….has and did none of those things. His contribution was that he was Sam’s brother and stuck by him. Which is very sweet but I don’t think the way it played out was the only way we could have had both the brotherly bond moments and Dean actually doing something. Again, I’m not begrudging Sam his due. It just would have been nice to have things truly be more equal in SOME way, just as Kripke had promised. And now I feel like the writers have gotten used to the idea of Sam driving the plot and Dean getting the emo scenes so I don’t have much faith that that will change next season.
I want to just wave to say I agree with everything the poster above (Tiffany) says. I’m more than happy Sam got his destiny fulfilled. But what about Dean’s destiny? The one they spent a season and a half telling us about? Seems his destiny was to sit on the ground and watch. Why couldn’t he have done something proactive, like throw the rings or something? It was a farce, and this is one of the few places where it’s being handwaved, so I’m very happy that Sera Gamble apparently looks to TWOP for fan feedback instead of here. I’m also happy so many fans who didn’t like the finale at all are making their views known here despite being dismissed as whiners, since all views are welcome, yes? I guess we’ll see how much negative criticism of the finale is still here in a day or so.
Andrea W: Since the Sequential Tarts are notorious Sam girls, I hope I can link to this so that there is some balance here…
http://www.innsmouthfreepress.com/?p=6111
Samgirls, really? I’m surprised, because I never noticed it. One of the reviewers even declared herself a Deangirl. Anyway, Samgirls or Deangirls, I like their reviews and think they’re impartial and coherent.
Take no offence, but if you’re determined to find a Samgirls’ conspiracy everywhere, you will.
Thank you for the tip. I’ll make sure to take a look.
Alice, your reality checks are brilliant.
I wrote two letters to Eric Kripke and once I even got a nice reply. I didn’t complain, just told him what I like about the show. Maybe that’s what they’re looking for when they scan the fan forums: what we love about their show and what worked out well. Wherever the character development of Dean (and Sam) will go in season 6, I’ll take that ride. Supernatural never dissapointed me. And for the record: I loved to hate Ruby.
Hi Alice: me again. 😉
First I want to preface this by saying that it’s not my intention to diminish Dean’s character here. I think the writers have done a good job with his (and Sam’s) characterization over the seasons. My issue with the show right now is the way it has (IMO) devalued Dean’s individuality by continually having him revert back to “big-brother†mode, while at the same time presented Dean’s big-brotherly ways as wrong and something that he should be made to apologize for. Additionally, while the show set up a new role for Dean in the mytharc, they then took it away as he was replaced in that role by another brother. Dean went against his big-brother instincts and allowed Sam to go ahead with his plan which resulted in Sam sacrificing his life. My concern for next season is that Dean will once again be made to APOLOGIZE and this time it will be because he didn’t “protect†Sam. And I do not want the show to promote a dynamic where Dean is made to feel *responsible* to protect Sam yet he’s also wrong when he does assume that role. The show is trying to have it both ways with Dean, and HE’S the one who ends up paying the price.
** Alice said: “As for Dean, he was always the glue that held the family together. His role was crucial. It may not seem equal, but without him it all would have failed.” **
I do appreciate Dean’s role in the family dynamic, although as I said I’m not sure that it’s something the show ultimately feels is a positive aspect of Dean’s character any longer (also see: Dark Side of the Moon). Regarding Swan Song, I don’t think that the plan would have necessarily failed without Dean, and that’s part of my problem with this episode and the absence of an equally important role in the mytharc for Dean. In reality, Dean failed a lot in Swan Song (and looking back at the previous season finales, it’s a pattern for Dean to ultimately fail in his mission). Dean failed to trap Lucifer by opening the portal in the hotel room. He then tried to rally TFW to come up with another plan, but he failed at that as well. He also went to the graveyard without a plan. He could have perhaps tried to use the oil to trap Lucifer i.e. trapping Gabriel in Changing Channels or try to use the knife as he did with Zach, but the writers didn’t give Dean even that much in this episode. Dean confronted Lucifer, watched as he killed Bobby and Castiel, and then became the victim of a brutal beating. Sure Dean was very brave to confront Lucifer, but honestly he should have been killed just like Bobby and Castiel. Dean had no power against Lucifer.
Ultimately, Sam was able to overcome Lucifer because of a memory triggered by seeing his own toy soldier inside of the Impala. It wasn’t by looking at Dean’s face or because of any words of encouragement by Dean, it was because of his memory of the past. And yes, it’s a past that included Dean and their bond as brothers, which is a lovely thing. But it was all Sam’s doing. Lucifer could have easily killed Dean then and there, and Sam’s memories could have still triggered something in him that allowed him to take control of Lucifer. But in reality, Sam’s success didn’t require any *action* by Dean at the time. As Death told him, he just needed to sit back and let Sam do what he needed to do. And as Michael told him, Dean was no longer part of this story. He wasn’t needed. It was all up to Sam (and Adam) and Dean was no longer part of their story. The writers didn’t even allow Dean to use the rings in the end… that would have been *something* at least. But no, that too was Sam’s role.
And I think it was a fitting conclusion for Sam’s 5-season-long “destiny†storyline, although obviously very heartbreaking as well. We now see how all of the pieces fit – from his special abilities to meeting Ruby to the demon blood to killing Lilith and releasing Lucifer and finally as Lucifer’s vessel as he sacrificed his life to save the world. Sam has always been the central focus of the over-reaching mytharc storyline. Dean’s primary role for the first 3 seasons was to react to Sam’s storyline – his psychic powers, the YED’s interest in him, “save Sam or kill himâ€, his connection to Ruby and the use of his active powers, and to be the supportive big-brother to Sam.
But then in season 4 we are led to believe (at least I was led to believe) that Dean had a purpose other than being Sam’s big-brother/protector, for the first time in our story. Apparently Dean had his own destiny. Dean broke the first seal in hell and became a “righteous man who must end it†in the prophecy. So, we’re led to believe that Dean too had an important and unique role to play in stopping Lucifer and preventing Hell on Earth. And it seemed to me that the show was building up to this… Michael was mysteriously absent for most of the season because we were told that Dean and only Dean could be his true vessel, Dean was able to act as a “servant of Heaven†and kill the Whore of Babylon, Dean was able to kill Zach (when Uriel told us that only an angel can kill another angel) and look him in the eyes (when doing so should have resulted in burning out Dean’s eyes). So I’m not sure what happened with Point of No Return? Kripke and Gamble both claimed this episode was going to focus on Dean’s relationship with Michael and yet, it really didn’t. It did focus on Dean getting yelled at a lot for not succumbing to the needs of TFW and being on the receiving end of a brutal beatdown by Castiel. But we really learned nothing new about Michael and Dean made the decision not to say yes because Sam didn’t want him to and Dean didn’t want to disappoint Sam and the rest of TFW.
And I understand that Dean was always about denying “destiny†but I still think there were other options the show could have gone with besides Dean as Michael’s “meatsuitâ€. I think being a meatsuit is different than the prophecy Zach spoke of and I think the show could have taken this further without compromising Dean’s humanity or integrity. I would have preferred Dean to have a more pro-active leadership role regarding his situation with Michael. Dean is a pretty persuasive guy. He was able to use those powers of persuasion on Castiel in LR and on Gabriel in HOTG, so I think he could have eventually convinced Michael to see his side – the pro-human side of things.
I think Dean could have said yes to Michael as part of the plan, but he would not have merely been Michael’s vessel, but rather Michael’s “sword.†I thought that the “righteous man†referred to Dean because of WHO he is and how he lived his life. Dean could have been “special†not because he had supernatural powers, but because of his strength of character. And it could have been quite ironic (and awesome) that the very thing the angels abhor about Dean – his humanity – is what qualified him to be Michael’s sword. Because the role could have been setup in a way that Dean wouldn’t be merely a vessel, but rather as a weapon for humanity. But again, this would have required much more interaction between Dean and Michael along the way (maybe a temp vessel for Michael or Michael speaking to Dean in his dreams as Lucifer spoke to Sam) in order for Dean to use his powers of persuasion to chip away at Michael’s stubbornness about fulfilling his destiny and start to come around to Dean’s POV. But of course, that didn’t happen.
Sam fulfilled his destiny, but in a way that utilized his own strength of character. And Dean’s role as the “sword†could have been to persuade Michael to “stop itâ€â€¦ stop the battle between them and allow Sam to re-cage Lucifer and finally save humanity. And I think the plan could have been that they both go into the pit, but maybe something happens – like suddenly Michael regains control – and only Sam/Lucifer ends up falling into the pit in the end. So the outcome could be the same but instead Dean could have had an active and pro-active role of his own and he’s not merely playing a supporting role to Sam and Sam’s destiny. But even if Dean didn’t become Michael’s vessel or his sword, his special role could have involved the use of the Horseman’s rings to open the portal. But that didn’t happen either, as Sam used the rings in the end. Sam with his special powers and his demon blood drinking saved the world and human and non-special powered Dean was left nearly beaten to death, useless to help Sam, useless to use the rings or to do anything else in the end but sit there on the ground and watch.
So, after PONR, not only did we finally see that Dean’s supposed unique role in the mytharc come to an abrupt end, additionally Dean is made to apologize for the other, more prominent role he’s held on the show — Sam’s big-brother/protector. Season 5 was a season of changing dynamics between Dean and Sam. Dean felt betrayed by Sam because he chose to be with Ruby. Sam felt Dean treated him like a kid-brother and not an equal partner. I do think both brothers have valid points of view regarding their feelings, so I’m not going to get into the details of this. Both brothers deserve their feelings. However, if Sam doesn’t want Dean to play the role of big-brother, and the SHOW actually has Dean apologize over and over again for his behavior as the big-brother, and he doesn’t have a destiny/powers/mytharc role, then my question is — what’s left for Dean?
So, I do hope there is a (good) reason why the show chose this particular path for Dean. I agree that the brotherly bond is wonderful and that the show should focus on that bond. Both brothers bring something unique to their partnership and to their relationship. But it seems to me that the Dean’s role as big brother tends to prevent him from having any kind of unique mytharc-related role or special role *beyond* his role as Sam’s big brother, just as Swan Song demonstrated (to me). Sam has always had his own – special powers/special destiny/â€will I turn evil or not?†– arc. And I know many fans don’t see this as a problem. I know that some fans think Dean’s role as Sam’s big brother is enough and he doesn’t need anything outside of this. But it isn’t enough for me.
And if Sam continues to have special powers and is able to use those powers freely during hunts, then their partnership will NEVER be equal. It’s apparent to me that Dean will never have special powers like Sam. Dean will never have a grand destiny like Sam. Will he have his own “redemption arc†as Sam did this season? I’m not saying that Dean needs to do or have everything that Sam has or has had, however, now that Sam has also gone to hell, that’s another thing that is no longer unique to Dean.
And for all that some fans love the big-brother protector / little-brother protected dynamic the fact remains that Dean had to apologize to Sam many times last season for his big-brother behavior and thinking. Even Bobby scolded Dean for thinking of Sam as his little brother still. Well okay then, who should Dean be in our story? He’s no longer allowed his big-brother role, he’s not allowed to fulfill a grand destiny or have a role in the mytharc, so what is Dean allowed to do without having to constantly apologize for his actions? And the last thing I want – the absolute LAST thing I want to happen is for Dean to be pushed back into hunting because of Sam. I want Dean to move beyond living his life for Sam. He is now only with Lisa and Ben because of the promise he made to Sam. But I want Dean to be motivated by his own needs and desires for ONCE and not only because he feels obligated to be the big-brother/protector to Sam.
So I’d like the show to finally give Dean some kind of arc that showcases Dean’s strength of character and his individuality and maybe focuses on HIS destiny. I believe the show can do this without compromising the brothers’ relationship or their bond. But it will require the writers to allow Dean to be his own individual **without apology** and to be of EQUAL importance to Sam in the over-reaching mytharc, not merely the “human sidekick†to a brother who has powers, and not merely important because he is the “big-brother†to Sam. Yes, Dean has always been the glue that held his family together and he’s always defined his worth by what he can do for his family. But Dean deserves to have a role *beyond* what he can do for Sam. And I would like the writers to allow Dean to have his own unique role in the story. JMO. YMMV. Etc, etc.
Sorry for the length! Thanks for giving me the opportunity to discuss this, Alice. I appreciate it. And if you share any of my concerns, I do hope if you have the opportunity to interview the show’s writers, that maybe some of these issues could be brought up for discussion? Thanks again! 🙂
Very nicely said, Chris J. You really captured my own concerns with what happened to Dean’s role over the course of the season, and especially in the finale.
Chris J, thank you so much for taking the time to write that. I freely admit that I view this show from Sam’s perspective, and yet now I feel I do understand where others are coming from when they express concern about Dean’s roll in this thing.
Tiffany and Chris_J, your posts were both great, and reading them gave me quite an eye-opener in regards to viewing Dean and Sam separately. You both made really excellent points, and I can completely understand now the frustrations of fans who feel that Dean’s role was not what it could have been or should have been for the finale. I guess I should now call myself an Impala gal, a Dean gal, a Sam gal, AND a Winchester gal.
And by the way, is this site set up to automatically reject the first attempt to post by saying the poster has entered the wrong word? Every post, I have to do this twice.
Edited, I’m tired of the Sam girls stuff. You do not represent “the fandom.”
Alice, I just love your Reality Check-articles. Thanks for sharing!
When I want some changes in the SPN story, and put my own ideas into it, I don’t go ranting about it online and throwing sticks and stones on the showrunners – it doesn’t work, and it’s none of my business. I go and watch my own SPN version in my head, and nobody needs to know about it (and get your minds out of the gutter here 😯 ;-))
Well, Karen A, I was trying to keep a friendly conversation, but it seems you won’t have it. And you know what? There are many things I could say to you but it’s not worth my time and effort. Besides, I’m not the one with a problem. I loved Swan Song and as a Samgirl I’m perfectly happy with Sam’s part. As for those who aren’t so happy, I’m sorry we disagree but it’s THEIR problem, not mine.
Just one last thing. The fact that the Sequential Tarts don’t make Dean walk on the water doesn’t mean that they’re are Samgirls. It only means that they see Dean as what he is: a human being, not some kind of saint or a superhero with a flaming sword. And this doesn’t diminish him in the least. But if they’re really Samgirls, good for them. I still think the same of their reviews, and as a bonus now I know that they have good taste too.
OK, I can’t stand it anymore, so I have to show my ignorance. WHAT is a Sequential Tart???
Hey everyone, a request. Please take any discussion from this point forward about Dean, his character direction, frustrations about season five to this thread please.
https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-list/category2/9774-open-discussion-on-dean-winchesters-character-development.html#yvComment
(Comment removed by Alice). Karen M, not that I need to defend my policies to you and your biases, but I allow at least one comment to stay and issue a warning. Excessive comments that follow get edited. If you notice, I have created comments letting Dean fans know they are in fact not whiners unless they attack Sam fans or other posters. So, keep your attitude to yourself, or send them to me privately via the Contact Us section.
I consider myself a rabid fan, not quite to the point you’ve described, but close enough. I did send 120 handmade postcards to Dawn Ostroff in the hopes of moving the show back to Thursdays and was kindly rewards with a letter that told me it was, essentially, impossible.
I also complain about SOME of the things you’ve afformentioned, but only to my Supernatural Sisters and other fans, I never expect writers or Kripke to listen or do anything about it because, in reality, the things I can’t tolerate I believe shouldn’t be happening in the first place.
To refrain from rambling on forever, I’ll choose the one things that bothers me most. In this case, as you mentioned, dropped plot lines.
In season 5 especially, it seemed like the last ten minutes of every episode was a little mini-sode in and of itself. It had little to nothing to do with the episode we’d just viewed and it did nothing to set up the episode to come. As a viewer with an overactive imagination and a tendancy to conjour up consiracy theories, this can be incredible frustrating.
I can only assume it is to set up season six, but even then I have to think that these people, some of the most talented working in television, could have found a better way to set it all up and exicute it.
As for Sera Gamble, I constantly find myself having to reassure people that she is going to be an excellent replacement for Kripke. I have a feeling we’ll all enjoy the next season more because of her extra involvement.
Looking forward to season six. hoping things from this year that drove me to tears of frustration are explained better.
at work so i haven’t been able to read the comments but i couldn’t agree more alice!
it’s their show and their story to tell we get to participate and experience and that’s good enough for me. also we don’t know the whole story they have in their heads so why can’t some people just let the story be told instead of jumping the gun.
also the problem with listening to the fans is that we all disagree, we’ve all got our favourite episodes, characters and plots/arcs and you can’t satisfy everyone.
also on a more personal note throughout the seasons most of my speculation or thoughts on where i thought the show was going or where i want the show to go was either wrong or nowhere near as good as what the writing team came up with, so i bow to their superior story telling skills and sit back and say Kripke Sera and co tell me a story …
H Alice, Just read this article (a little late, I know!) and I have to say that I definitely want the showrunners to have a plan and I definitely don’t want fans to have too much input and that goes for any show that I watch.
I think that some of the reason there is so much flack around certain aspects of Supernatural is that sometimes fans expectations are not managed well. I don’t mean that the fans aren’t managing their own expectations well (sometimes they don’t!) but the show also sets up expectations by emphasising certain plot points or saying things in interviews that make the fans think ‘oh, that’s going to play out this way’ or ‘that’s going to be THE big thing for next season’.
After all the build up during season 6 about how badly damaged Sam’s soul was and how excruciating it would be for him if the wall in his mind broke that I came into Season 7 expecting a much different storyline than the one we actually got. As a result I’m really disappointed in that story line. I still love the show, and I still love most of the episodes (not all, the wedding one was a complete miss to me), but I can’t stand what they didn’t do with Sam.
I know that sometimes (most times?) the showrunners want to surpise or shock the viewers but it must be carefully done. And if they aren’t going to pay off a plot for a couple of years, then don’t make it look like they’re going to pay it off next week.