In sorting through the feedback over last night’s episode at other sites, the Sam vs. Dean fans have broken out in skirmishes again. Sure it has been building over the last few weeks, but this time it’s been fueled by a story showing how to work out differences. Now, let me see if I’ve got this right:
– Sam fans think Dean owes Sam an apology for blaming him for starting the apocalypse (which he essentially did last night).
– Dean fans are offended that Dean “keeps” apologizing to Sam, for he doesn’t deserve it after what he did. Sam owes him an apology for everything he put him through last season.
– Sam fans are mad Sam keeps apologizing. They think he’s apologized enough.
– Dean fans think Sam is being a whiny brat, especially with the whole “I’m to dangerous to hunt” and “let me grow up” stuff.
– Sam fans are mad that Dean was such a jerk last night and thinks so little of his brother.
– Dean fans are mad that Dean only started treating Sam like an adult after he said something. Sam needs to earn it.
– Sam fans say Dean is weak. Sam is a saint.
– Dean fans say Sam is weak. Dean is a saint.
Enough! In honor of these little squabbles, the Batley Townswomen Guild, the visionaries that they are in gruesome historic fights, have decided to devote their annual battle reenactment this year to Supernatural. So here you go, the reenactment of the Battle of Sam fans vs. Dean fans.
Oh, I never get tired of that. Since I’ve opened the door, here’s my say on the matter. Because you knew I’d have one.
One brother is not better than the other. Sam and Dean are having differences because that’s what happens in life. People change, people evolve, people follow their own paths, oh, and siblings fight. I have three of them, I know. Different and distinct personalities are bound to clash at times. There’s no right and wrong. The fact that Sam and Dean were grown up enough last night to listen to what each other had to say proves they’re committed to one another. They’re determined to make things work. They’re family and despite their differences, they know they’re all they’ve got.
Sam knows it was wrong to trust Ruby and run from Dean. What he did though was not unlike a typical youth in rebellion. Acting out against the oppressive authority figure. He did it with his dad and then Dean. Most rebellious youths though set themselves straight eventually and try to make right the errors of their ways. This is Sam now. He’s not wrong to want to be treated as an equal. If anything, he’s always needed that.
Dean knows it was wrong to turn Sam away after Sam killed Lilith. He also realizes now he didn’t understand the pain his brother was in during his demon blood addiction and after. It was what Dean said at the end of the episode. “I was so worried watching your every move I didn’t see what it was actually doing to you.” He apologizes, Sam accepts.
Sam admitted he was wrong. Dean admitted he was wrong. Both have made the proper apologies to each other for the right reasons. They’re both claiming responsibility. They’re both owning up to their mistakes and trying to make things right. When Sam said he was “sorry,” that meant for everything. Sure, fans want to know specifically what he was saying sorry for, but Dean’s answer was pretty much the same everytime. He knows. Specific apologies aren’t necessary.
Families fight. Families make each other miserable. All members in a family share equal blame if there’s trouble. Welcome to life. Sure this is a TV show, but brothers at odds is one of the oldest stories of mankind. What we’re seeing is more realistic than any family drama I’ve seen, fact or fiction. These brothers have grown up a lot this season. Let’s give them credit where credit is due. If Sam and Dean are mature enough to hammer out their differences, warring factions of fans should do the same.
Whew, I feel better! For those interested, I’m allowing full freedom in comment posting for this article. No holds barred. If you desire, air your grievances about Sam and Dean’s behavior, writing inconsistencies, or your fellow posters in fandom and their short sightedness. It’s the equivalent of arming everyone with purses and throwing them in the mud. Curse, yell, debate, get it all out in the open. I will not moderate or delete comments unless threats of personal physical harm are made. When the dust finally settles, I’m hoping its out of everyone’s systems.
Remember, if you keep it up, you’ll be forcing the ladies of the Batley Townswomen Guild to wrestle in the mud some more. That’s just mean.
I don’t think I could have said it better than YOU did. (And you said basically what I have always thought and especially thought in regards to them and their talks in last night’s episode).
I love you and you couldn’t be more right. I am a self proclaimed bonafide Sam girl to the death but i am also a brothers girl and anything that makes them grow together as individuals and as brothers, repairing and maturing can ONLY be a good thing as far as I’m concerned. Both boys were very mature by the end of last nights episode, it’s a shame fans can’t be the same. I may be a Sam girl but it should be the brothers as a collective above any and all else.
You are the voice of a lot of fandom that just ignore the fools arguing this rubbish at one another, Pitting Sam VS Dean ruins the core focus, that they are stronger united and together.
The Battle of Pearl Harbour is a perfect analogy for all the Sam/Dean stuff (and all the Sam/Dean/Castiel stuff I’m now starting to see).
There do seem to be a lot of people who go out of their way to be made unhappy by a show that’s supposed to make people happy. They then go even further out of their way to impose their particular brand of unhappiness on others.
The arguments are so relentlessly negative and destructive (and absolutist) as well. Most of it seems to boil down to “I think this, which means you are entirely wrong to think that”. Don’t these people have better things to do? Something positive that respects different points of view? Something that will add to the sum of human happiness, instead of detracting from it?
If the no holds barred provision allows more than one post on this topic, I may come back. I have a lot more spleen I could vent.
That anyone could find anything to wank on in this most recent episode is just mind boggling. It was everything that was needed and more than I ever expected.
Anybody who wanks that, your crazy is showing. Put it away!
Well said, Alice.
My personal view after last night’s episode is that it’s time to move on from the who-owes-who-an-apology debate. I think that both have apologized and been apologized to so now it’s time to lay it to rest. That isn’t to say the relationship doesn’t need rebuilding – it does, no question – but I think the starting fresh idea was spot on. Clean slate on all fronts.
I’m a fan of them both and personally disagree that the apologies between them both are annoying, some blaming of each other and bickering is bound to happen (hello! they both had a play in the apocalypse!), but it always ends with the brothers making amends.
You pretty much summed it up well. Families fight, and we sure damn well make each other miserable.
hey alice!
awesome article! this is why I love coming to this site because you ‘get’ this show and see it from a thoughtful and provacative way like i do. and most ppl that come here are like that too. I never understood the arguments and from what you wrote i dont think you do either! lol. its childish to just like one brother and dislike the other. I think both brothers are treated equally. and again i agree with you alice. I am a tv nut. only 23 but ive seen alot of tv shows. (got lots of box sets) and ive seen alot of teen dramas. guilty pleasures. and none of them has showed a brothers relationship as real as here on this show.
normally in teen dramas they drive the relationship in to the ground. have no clue what theyre doing and wreck their characters entirely. just watch the OC and youll get what i mean!-perfectly created characters. but the writers have no clue what to do with them ‘what can marisa do besides geting drunk?’ its like the writers said ‘lets make her even more drunk!’ too many shows have characters that never fully change or grow into their own. here sam and dean are growing so much you can just tell how this show reeks of good writing. cause i can be a hard critic sometimes but ive never seen a out of character moment with sam or dean. and i love the video. it speaks to itself. us here can continue enjoying the show we love while the sam/fans and dean/fans should find the nearest field to take out their mad-cow disese on eachother!
In the words of Sam: Thank you. Really, thank you. I love reading reviews of Supernatural episodes but I’ve come to avoid reading the comments because people can sometimes be overly emotional or even just rude. I think it’s wonderful that people are passionate about these characters and about the show but it’s important to be constructive and not argue. I’m so glad that you’re addressing this in a balanced, peaceful way. So thanks.
Loved the Monty Python clip, Alice. Thanks for the laugh!
I’ve had to stop reading fan comments on many sites because they make me too frustrated.
I think the difference between me and the fans whose opinions I find frustrating is that I don’t watch episodes with a pre-determined script in mind that *has* to happen to make me happy.
I try to watch without expectations (that’s why I avoid spoilers) and evaluate the new content I see on the screen in light the characters’ past actions, not in light of what I *wanted* to see.
I totally agree with Elle that “it’s time to move on from the who-owes-who-an-apology debate.” After this episode, I won’t be able to take seriously anyone demanding an apology for season 4 events from either brother. That’s just personal axe grinding at this point.
ROFL!!! Thanks so much–for the Monty clip and the article, so eloquent and sensible. Captured the way I know a lot of us have been feeling… Wanting to avoid the petty bickering sometimes found on fansites is actually what led me to TWFB in the first place, I found the articles on blogcritics and the link to this site. I’d been looking for thoughtful, level-headed discussions, and when I found this site I thought, “Oh–here it is!” Love both brothers, their relationship and their journey are what pulled me in and why I’m amazed by and crazy for Supernatural
I agree with everything you wrote. Fandom wanks plenty, though – man, I’ve seen people write that they think Sam is the root of all evil and that he should just be permanently replaced by Castiel. Blah.
OMG Alice!
I was at work when I clicked on the video. It took everything I had to stop myself from bursting out laughing and looking like a complete lunatic. Good old Monty Python!
What a great commentary.
I couldn’t agree with you more on everything you said.
I for one have always sat on the fence when it came to the brothers.
I love both of their distinct personalities, their quirks and even their flaws.
Even when they have made the wrong choices and acted inappropriately, I have always been able to understand their motives, and have never felt that they couldn’t be forgiven.
That includes everything that transpired in Season 4 and Season 5 to date.
It must be my maternal instincts because I just love these characters.
They Both snuck in and stole my heart.
I guess that’s why I find it so hard to understand this constant bickering.
I can’t believe how angry and unreasonable some people get.
I truly wonder if it’s genuine compassion or simply just trouble making.
Very nicely put Alice. It really gets old quick reading fan fighting in the comment area. And the video clip: *laughs* That was great. I am ready to move on from the apology stuff for last season as well. Time to move on.
Hey Alice, I’ve never posted here before though I often read your blog. I love that I can come here and get insightful commentary without the wank. Thank you.
I am in total agreement with your comment about siblings, distinct personalities, and clashes. Believe me, I know. You have three siblings – I have twelve! We clash, we reconcile, we move forward from a stronger position. It doesn’t mean we love each other any less. It just means we’re family. I think the writers handle this aspect of the show very well.
Clearly no bickering fangirls here then. One of the reasons I like this site so much.
Honestly, I don’t read the comments on most websites anymore because of all the bickering. It’s just plain annoying.
I suppose I am a bit of a Samgirl myself (the first I ever saw of Supernatural was the last bit of Bloody Mary so it was practically unavoidable) but the show is about the brothers. Both of them. Apocalypse or not.
Personally, I think that they have both appologised enough. Everything is out in the open. They have both taken resposibility for what they have done. It is now time to forgive.
I read comments that Sam should be replaced by Castiel and somehow that was really funny. Because Castiel is the only one who has not claimed responsibility for the things he has done. His little speach to Dean in ‘Good God, y’all’ really made me angry. He had a hand in the apocalypse as well but he has never owned up to it. Nobody knows that he is the one who let Sam out of the panic room and I am not sure he is ever going to tell anyone. At least he should have the decency to appologise to the both of them.
Love the mony python clip! Somehow I found this one very appropriate as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM
Fanwars… Can the internet really get any weirder?
Good Points all – I have to jump onboard and say that I too cannot understand the value of choosing sides in this story. It is a fun, fantastic story that Kripke, et. al are telling and I am thrilled to be along for the ride. It takes both boys to make the story work. Nor do I want to see nothing change from the season 2 story – great as it was – because the tale has to go somewhere. Basic it comes down to two very, very talented actors (who are really smokin’ hot) and a thoughtful, purpose-driven story. What’s not to like.
Alice I swear that sometimes you read my mind 😉
This Samgirls vs Deangirls is getting old and really annoying! Why can’t people just enjoy the show and the brothers without starting a fight over every line they say?
Some days I’m a Samgirl and some days I’m a Deangirl so I really don’t get all this bickering!
It’s so damn annoying when you go read the comments and the chat areas and all you find there is fans fighting over some silly thing! And I like to read other people comments, I like to know their thoughts and opinions, your site is the only one I didn’t gave up reading the comments area Alice, because like PetraO said there’s learly no bickering fangirls here!
Thank you Alice for provide us this fantastic place where we can “talk” without bickering fans jumping on us for every thing we say.
If any member of my family tried to throttle me like Sam did to Dean in ‘When the Levee Breaks’ then I would NEVER speak or see them again. It was unforgivable.
AMEN to this, just, awesome!
And SO true!
Thank god we don’t have stupid SamvsDean wank here ’cause it’s just so useless and frustrating.
I think I’m the third wheel in this debate, but I will say that back when I was a wee lad, us dudes used to argue over who was cooler, B.A. Baracus or Howlin’ Mad Murdock.
Throttling, in the story, whether or not that action was unforgivable is up to Dean. You may not forgive Sam, but presumably, Dean is adult enough to make up his own mind about forgiving his brother.
You said it well. Also, they’re guys! They don’t share the same way women do. they don’t speak the same way! And this is not Oprah! LOL! Though I think Dean does watch Oprah! 🙂
LOL! That video was a wake-up call for me. I’m guilty of hoping to hear Sam say he is sorry for hurting and strangling his brother while he was down. But I’d never ever wish this show was about one or the other brother. What makes this special is both brothers and all their love and conflicts and their character growth through the seasons. And the two awesome actors who portray them so beautifully!
Cas is a fine addition to the show and hopefully a good friend to Dean and maybe to Sam too eventually, but he will NEVER replace Sammy as Dean’s beloved brother.
And this site is the only Supernatural site that I ever post on just because everyone is so kind and civil to each other. And also it certainly is a site that is 100% pro our wonderful show. We may have differences as to which episode is superior to another but 99% of the time there is no nastiness to be found here. That cannot be said about other sites. So I stick to the sites that don’t raise my blood pressure.
So, if my hero Dean Winchester can forgive Sammy for choking him in the heat of the moment, I can do it too. (Heehee! And maybe it was all settled off screen anyway?)
I’m just so grateful for this show and I do hope it will continue on with season 6 with Kripke still at the helm. When it does end I know I will be nothing but a blubbering mess for weeks to come.
Hi Alice, a big fan of your reviews and opinions, but have to respectfully disagree somewhat in this case. I feel (and yes, it’s just my opinion) that Sam has yet to give any indication of what he is going to contribute to this new relationship. Perhaps you can explain it to me. Seems to me that Dean has made all the moves in that area (eg he will stop treating Sam like a little brother). I really really dislike the savage Sam vs Dean battles, but think it’s a little unfair that Dean seems to have been the one to again ‘suck it up’. I guess the writers are perhaps showing us again how big a heart Dean has! I do love the show and the great relationship between the actors and the characters, and just hope the writers do a better job in future episodes.
Nice work, Alice!
I think the root of the problem is that many of us likes good melodrama and hurt/comfort bit too much. They (we?) have a feeling that the situation between brothers could be used better and harder for that kind of dramatic purposes.
As another (even nonfictional) human being I’d say to Sam and Dean: “Nice. Now stop saying “sorry”, show that you are sorry with your actions. Good. Great! Move on!”
As an observer of great TV-show I say “Sam, apologize some more. I like your expression. Manpain is adorable!”
I am of the belief that Sam has said he was sorry, shown he was sorry, made some huge character strides, etc. The reationship between the boys fell apart because of both brothers (and the various factions from who stood to benefit from it). Therefore it takes two to fix it.
Regarding Sam vs Dean drama. If people are reading comments and getting angry, depressed, or any other negative emotion because they think their favorite character is being insulted, it may be time for them to take a step away from things and gain some perspective. People seem to get so angry.
Last comment and then I’ll stop. 🙂
Joy, Sam has stopped lying to Dean, including coming right out with the Lucifer meat-suit thing, which I’m sure he would’ve hidden last season. In fact, he was such a big fat liar last season, I’m surprised he has any pants left without scorch marks. So that’s progress on his part.
Thanks Antoinette, that’s a good point. I hope that continues, with honesty continuing from both Sam and Dean. 🙂 Trina, I hear you about perspective! I think it’s quite amazing that the story of these two boys has touched the hearts of so many people (mostly in a good way!) But yes, sometimes we need to take a step back and a deep breath, so we can realise that, although not perfect, our little show is pretty great.
Ah don’t you love fandom. SuperNatural has its Sam vs Dean factions and Chuck has its shippers ie only watch the show to see Chuck and Sarah get together.
Like Dean says – “I was so worried watching your every move I didn’t see what it was actually doing to you.”
Get fixated on one aspect of a show and you develop tunnel vision. In the process one ends up missing all the other cool things a show has to offer.
Hi Alice,
after reading your blog at blogcritics for a while now, and after your kind invitation to join you in discussing our favourite show here on your site, something magical happened: I’ve had some strange problems with my browser or whatever and was not able to open the articles on your site. And now, after we’ve kind of made contact, it worked all of a sudden – and I haven’t even done anything… I will never know what supernatural elements work their wonders in everyday life. But I’m grateful for this one.
Thank you so much for this article! I agree with everything you offered!
I have to admit, though, that I don’t follow the ‘fan bickering’ or however one might call it on the www on a regular or even daily basis, as I just don’t have the time to do it, due to long working hours. So I take a look at some sites, but cannot do it on an everyday basis.
But – of course – even with these occasional visits to fansites I have become aware of the often narrow-minded, impolite or insulting remarks some fans have to offer concerning the show, the actors, the writers, the storyline in general (and we got a nice ironic glimpse of that in Season Four’s “Monster At The End Of This Bookâ€).
Let’s not forget: these are fictional characters.
Of course, I often discover within myself a highly protective streak, too, when I hear someone say how the show was nonsense. I discover myself drawing a breath and wanting to start a plea in defence of this show – I often don’t. You cannot persuade someone (or force, for that matter, since we’re talking ‘Fan Wars’) to like something that is completely out of their hemisphere of what they like. I’ve experienced that people became curious about Supernatural after I told them what I love about it, but others have just not been interested.
Now, should I tie them to a rack and get creative in finding new methods of verbal torture? How ridiculous a thought.
That I – and many of us fans – feel protective about the show, that we get emotional and care about characters that came to being via some fantastically creative mind’s quill, is to be attributed to the incredible talents that created the characters, the story, the look – namely Kripke & all Co., and the hugely talented actors who fill lines on pages with life.
But it all boils down to this: it is, after all, a tv show with fictional characters who will leave our screens one day. Everyone involved with the show will move on, Jensen and Jared and Misha and Jim and… and… will (hopefully) find other great roles to play and to introduce us to other stories and characters.
It’s an actor’s way – get into a person’s skin (and if they do it well, people will be tempted to believe that that person actually might be real) and then, after a while, shed it again, and then become another person between ‘action’ and ‘cut’. And so on.
I do love this show. It touches wires in my soul in a manner I had not believed possible, and it was helpful at times, but that is another story for another time.
I can hardly wait for the next episode to air, for the dvds to come out, and I love to talk about the show with friends I managed to introduce to it and who love it (or almost) as I do.
But I have a real life that needs attention, and the people I share my life with need attention. I’ve come to find out that it doesn’t need to be exclusive. All of it finds room in my life. Sometimes more, sometimes less.
What I don’t understand, though, are the over-the-top aggressive remarks I read at times.
I think when people take sides in the radical fashion that made you post your article, Alice, they actually reveal a lot about themselves.
No matter which side we choose (if we do) we do it for deeply personal reasons. ‘Deangirls’ might find reactions of Dean fitting to their own experiences with their siblings, or with being the responsible elder brother (or sister), or they feel they have done something terribly wrong and yearn for forgiveness (or someone has wronged them and they have not been able to forgive or would like to forgive, but don’t know how), whatever. Same goes for ‘Samgirls’ with another color perhaps.
It is a deeply human desire to be forgiven. When we feel we are guilty of something (provided that we find our conscience – there are people of course that don’t feel remorse, but I’m not referring to those), we strive to find forgiveness. Really, who can sleep well when we know that there is someone holding a grudge against us or who kicks us out of their lives because we did something wrong? Especially, if we love the one who draws back. Love makes us vulnerable. Everything hurts more. If your brother, whom you love, sends you away (or your father), will it not rip a wound that hardly heals without this brother’s (or father’s) help and absolution?
Sam and Dean are right there. They have wronged each other. They have misunderstood each other. They have been afraid of each other – and they have found a way to reach out to each other.
They have grown so much. They are grown men who dare to live up to their responsibilities. I guess there is hardly anything more difficult than admitting ‘I’ve been wrong’ – particularly when you have been used to doing most things right, when the world is no more a simple black or white, but large areas of grey that leave a lot to interpretation.
It took both brothers a long time to get to this point. But it is only logical. After all they’ve been through, talking the steps they finally took needed a lot of courage and strength. And time. Both are playing wounded.
It’s easy to judge Sam or Dean from a living room’s safety and say ‘you need to apologize more’ or ‘you are weak’.
Since those ‘warring’ fans take this show seriously enough to lunge at each other’s throats (only verbally I hope), they should also try to understand the characters’ development from a ‘serious’ point to view and slip into their skin and try to imagine how they would feel, how they would react, when and how they would ask for forgiveness, etc. , were they in Sam’s or Dean’s shoes. It is fairly easy to judge when we don’t have to take responsibility, or when the particular weight we find on the Winchesters’ shoulders does not rest on the ones judging.
Be tolerant. Sam and Dean are not the worst role-models here, actually. After all they’ve been through, they’ve managed to deal with it in a sensible way, painfully, though, not losing the love they feel for each other, or their respect.
Thanks for reading, all the best to everyone here, Jas
jasminka, I really liked your comment. It was very well-thought out but it read like it was spur of the moment, which is my favorite kind that I can never achieve. =]
I think I identify more with Dean because I, like him, am an older sibling, except we’re two sisters with a bigger age difference. I understand when he gets frustrated with Sam and I don’t think he’s being at all irrational when he risks everything to save him (When he did, I guess. He doesn’t so much anymore.) because even though me and my lil sis aren’t in that sort of dangerous situation ever, living a safe ruraburanite area where the only danger in your caul-de-sac is getting run over by a tractor, but if we were I know I would be super protective of her. There’s nothing I wouldn’t do to keep her out of harm’s way, because she’s my little sister. I would keep her on just as short a leash as Dean did to Sam. And if she was choosing something we were hunting over me, I would be pissed too. I also call her out for every mistake she makes and if she started the apocalypse I wouldn’t forgive her too quick, even if it was partly my fault, and I wouldn’t ever let her forget it. I’d still be cracking jokes on my deathbed. But I’d still love her more than anything in the world, because she’s my baby sister. So yeah, I empathize with Dean more in general because that’s my perspective. I think it’s brilliant that the writers have given the characters such depth that viewers, such as me, can find so much in common with one or the other or even both (you middle children) without being in even a remotely similar situation. Human emotions don’t change from state to state or even country to country.
That being said, I’ll admit that older siblings might be some of the most annoying, irrational people on earth. In fact, we are. I find myself surprised that I can be such an ass to my sister half the time. I step back and say “what the hell, she’s eight, I’m fifteen, why was I just so mean to her?” but I don’t want to apologize because I don’t want to be wrong. But I see the flaws in older siblings, so yeah, I got irritated when Dean was watching Sam’s every move with suspicious eyes at the end of season 4 because Sam is a big boy. I didn’t like that Sam was hanging with Ruby, but little siblings need space too. They’re not there just when we’re looking at them–something I always forget. Sam found something else to do when Dean was busy in Hell. I think Dean forgets sometimes what it felt like when Sam died, and that was only for a couple hours. It was probably overshadowed by the 40 years he spent in the pit. But Sam spent 4 months without his beloved Dean, he wasn’t actually so unjustified in going crazy with the blood.
To continue, I did find myself pissed at Dean every time he brought up the fact that Sam started the Apocalypse because he needs to get over it, it’s mean of him to keep reminding Sam. But it’s almost painfully obvious that he has to try way too hard to be mad at Sam, and that their brotherly love has it’s roots way deeper in his heart than the newly planted anger thing.
So yeah. If you were to label me I’d be a Deangirl, but I’m also a Siblinggirl. Because siblings (not just brothers–even though it is now a requirement for everyone I date to have a good relationship with any brother that they have) have some of the stupidest and best relationships and arguments and ‘moments’ out of any other relationships, familial or romantic or otherwise.
I don’t know if any of that made sense. I was inspired (by something jasminka said, actually), which makes me crazy and rushy sometimes.
I could be totally off base here, but my interpretation of Dean blaming Sam for starting the Apocalypse is different than most of those stated. I think Dean blames himself as much as he blames Sam. I have re-watched the Dean/Bobby phone conversation from last episode and think it is at least possible that Dean was referring to himself (or both brothers) as being at fault; that was certainly my original impression. I thought that Sam’s guilt made him immediately think Dean was talking about him, but so many of Dean’s actions and statements are motivated by his own guilt.
I also think the communication and “apologizing†between the brothers is realistically done. I tend to think that many “fans†want the boys to act like girls-to talk about things like women do–and I really like them to be all boy ;-). I don’t think that Dean would really feel that Sam needed to apologize for any of their physical confrontations. It is the shutting Dean out that really hurt him, and most men (at least the ones I know) find those things hard to verbalize. One of the things I love about this show is that the emotions and actions between the brothers seem so realistic to me. An apology doesn’t need to include the words “I am sorry,†in fact, Sam’s explanation for turning to Ruby likely was much more meaningful to Dean than another “sorry.†Their actions will always be more important than their words. That is why for me, Dean handing over the Impala keys was much more moving than any conversation. It said everything—he heard Sam, acknowledged him, and admitted that Sam had a point—all in the act of letting Sam drive. A perfect older brother action; and that is why I love this show.
Hi Alice,
thanks so much for your sweet welcome and your feedback! I guess, praises for your husband are in order, right?! (I’m singing them right now…) I’m glad that I’m able to access this site’s articles now. Please thank him in my name.
I guess your comparison of the fandom to a ‘surrogate social network’ is very fitting. People need a place to find familiar souls of some kind who will understand their passion. The Internet provides more opportunities than were to be found before the www was established.
And I, for one, am very happy to have stumbled on your articles that somehow led me here, and I love to come back whenever I can make the time.
Thanks again and best wishes, Jas
Hello Joelsteinlover (I hope I got this right, if not – I apologize in advance) – I’m touched that something I said inspired you to tell us about some facets of your relationship with your sis and the connection you find with Dean. To my mind it takes some guts to share so personal a thought with complete strangers on the net.
Don’t know if anyone will want to label you ‘deangirl’ or whatever. Important are only the labels you give to yourself. Thank you! Take care, Jas
I simply loved your video, laugh, *many* 😀
I am not a fan of Sam, Dean, Cas or any other. I’m a fan of everyone, all because I am a fan of the Supernatural.
I am a fan that don’t want to see only Sam or only Dean or Cas,I want to see all because as fan all,all are important for the Supernatural and for me.
This type of bullying among fans, can destroy a great,great series that is Supernatural.
Sorry for my poor english.
I wish peace to all fans of supernatural. 😉
Wow everyone, thanks so much for not only the amazing and well thought out comments, but not breaking into a war. I’m so blessed that level heads prevail here. I really don’t have much to add to what anyone’s said except, right on! I agree with all of it.
Loved your article, Alice. I’m a Howlin’ Mad Murdock fan myself!……and, for me, these Sam vs. Dean fights are very unprofessional to the show. I am glad you keep us posted on what is happening at other sites, Alice, because I like to know about it, but I don’t have the too reading them first-hand. Besides, they can REALLY make me angry. Don’t mind them airing their opinion, but they never STOP. That’s why I like this site.
For me, I felt the apologies both boys made after ‘The End’ were supposed to cover all the issues. Kripke closed the issues in ‘The End’ and reopened them in ‘Fallen Idols’, which really added fuel to the fire. I am also the oldest, of 7 siblings, and when any one of us said we were sorry, all issues were closed. We never did it in ‘parts’. I think that is what most people expected to see, and what happens in real life. (BTW….…knock-down-drag-out fist fights happened more than once in my family, and in others as well, and not just between brothers, so Sam and Dean’s fight didn’t surprise me. Also it’s a large part of their profession, so it comes natural to them.)
Plus he has Sam saying he was running away from Dean by going with Ruby, that it made him feel strong! That isn’t what Kripke had claimed all last year! ..and that Dean need to let Sam grow up… again, Sam made a LOT of the decisions in last year’s episodes, Dean didn’t come up with all the solutions. I never got the impression Dean didn’t value any of Sam’s ideas because he was hi little brother.
He also had Dean acting like a jackass, which Dean has NEVER done in the past. Dean’s attitude was rude and very dehumanizing, and that is not Dean’s character at all. Of course it is going to irritate any Supernatural fan. It should! To know Sam heard Dean make that nasty comment to Bobby, and not care at ALL about Sam’s feeling is so very much out of character for Dean. It didn’t even follow the storyline as this was supposed to be a ‘fresh start’ for both of them.
I wondered why Kripke did this in the first place, and thought maybe the episode with PH was hastily put together, and they need some mini–storyline to use, or ‘fillers’ for the show, so decided to redo the ‘sorry’ scene for additional effect, although that wouldn’t explain the complete character change of Dean, and Sam….. Or maybe he just wanted to give the fans additional info…like Sam knowing about Dean’s breaking the first seal. For all intents and purposes, the whole ‘sorry’ scene in ‘Fallen Idols’ could have been added to the one in ‘The End’. It didn’t need to be repeated.
For me, it just seems like the whole PH episode was just for PH, and the myth arc story lines were given second priority, and not well thought out.
Okay….I’m done rambling!
I am appalled when the Dean vs Sam debate turns into Jensen vs. Jared. Has anyone seen the lunatics that insult the boys’ physical appearances or acting skills when they are in the middle of an angry tirade?
In my circle the Dean vs Sam debates are good natured fun, and we tend to change sides on an episode by episode basis. How can you possibly truly prefer one over the other? Two gorgeous, smart, funny, sweet self sacrificing heros. My sister and I always joke that if Sam and Dean took part in the debate they would take each other’s sides. 😀
Petranda – i have to agree i could see Sam and Dean taking each others sides!
I do love the show and the boys and I can understand why people get defensive of characters they love but some people take it too far. I also am a “brothers” fan, i like the dynamic and the fact the show is about them and their relationship.
I try to avoid the crazy as much as possible but it often spills over. I have to wonder sometimes do these people have siblings?
Speaking personally i often see the arguments my big brother and i have in sam and deans arguments, we do the whole lets ignore the problem thing, the lets keep secrets and fume individually thing, the lets keep bringing up the awkward and picking at the problem thing, also the apologise until the other one is more than irratated thing and the family speciality lets make sarky antagonistic comments and make the whole thing worse schtick. I guess it’s one of the reasons i like the show so much, and why i’m passionate about it, the relatioship between sam and dean seems real, it feels like the relatioship i have with my brother the relationship i have with my best friend (and unrelated little sister) and i feel a connection to the characters because of that.
As for the throttling thing, although i have no experience of violence i know what it is to have one of your closest relationships shatter to what you think is beyond repair. I also know what it is to piece that relationship back together and come out stronger. It’s a hard and brutal road with recriminations, set backs and those circling blame arguments but it’s necessary and worth it when you come out the otherside. Personally I see all these arguments and talks as a good thing especially as they’re communicating and are a lot more honest with themselves and each other then they did in the past.
and to think i thought this was going to be a quick comment! :roll::
basically my point is relationships are complicated and messy and it doesn’t help to take sides just let them work it out for themselves – did i mention it’s just a tv show. 😮
Sums it up perfectly. I’m more on Team Dean than Sam but in no universe is he perfect. There are things that are very obviously flawed about him, like how unfair he treats Sammy. Wars of the fandom half amuse me, half annoy me. I have to say that your Dean fans/Sam fans argument at the beginning made me laugh. Then I promptly sent it to everyone I know who watches Supernatural.
I totally agree with everything you said! Now let’s all turn on the Castiel fans out there! (j/k)
I just made the mistake of reading some comments on the CW source website. The things people throw out, it’s plain disgusting sometimes. There were some very strong anti-Sam feelings going around there and I was just itching to write a long scorching response to each and every one of them, but I managed to control myself. I don’t think I would have been able to stay even remotely polite and I am NOT going to descend to their level.
Why can’t people just see that one is not better than the other? Sam and Dean are simply different people with different flaws. They have both screwed up and they are both trying to make amends their own way. They have forgiven each other and they are moving on. I don’t see why the ‘fans’ can’t do that.
Sorry, I just had to rant a little. Feel much better now!
Hi PetraO,
your comment made me curious and I took a look at the CW-source-statements fans left there. There is one in particular that raised my blood pressure, bringing the – indeed outrageous – Sam’s-necrophilia-issue up again (among other things I do not wish to repeat here).
In contrast to you I could not help but comment there in a couple of sentences that I wonder why it is necessary to post comments in such a derogatory way.
Really, their lack of civility does them no credit.
It’s not a coincidence that the word fan is closely related to ‘fanatic’. Although I know there are fans out there that clearly need a life (or therapy, perhaps?), I still find it hard to believe that people actually write comments like that. Might be, because I’m fairly new to the whole commenting-on-Supernatural-thing. I don’t like to read remarks like the one mentioned, truth be told, and I won’t pay too much attention to those. What for?
I’m having a vicarious-embarrassment-attack. (No idea whether that expression really exists, it seemed the only one fitting).
On the other hand – I assume they only dare to express such truly embarrassing remarks within the anonymous safety of the www. I don’t think they would voice their opinions to Kripke’s or the writers’ faces (the people ‘responsible’ for the storyline), would they?
Relax, PetraO. Thank heavens there are other fans as well. For example here on this site – we might be madly in love with our show, maybe obsessive sometimes, we like to rave about the great story, the breathtaking leads and their remarkable talent, and it’s fun to share it all on a level that allows different opinions (without sending someone to the block) and a highly creative, fun-loving discussion.
I’m so glad I found this site and ‘y’all’ here. This is fun!
Take care, Jas.
You are braver than I am. I know that if I started spewing it wasn’t exactly going to be friendly. I stay firmly away from the comment button on most websites. This site is the only exeption.
I only read one or two comments and I didn’t even come across the truly horrible ones you mention, but it still had my bloodpressure rising to unhealthy levels. Since I can’t really ramble to anyone in person (not many Supernatural fans among my friends) this was the only place I could think of. This site is amazing! Even with the more touchy subjects everyone is nice to each other. I was starting to think it was impossible on the internet these days.
Apologies if I don’t make any sense. I am an insomniac and it is nearly 4 AM here in Holland… I’m not exactly what you’d call sharp right now.
Okay, I was just foolish enough to start looking for the comment you were taking about. I didn’t find it. Stopped looking very quickly to be honest. Do these people even watch the same show we do?
Honestly.
That particular site seems to be inhabited by Dean-girls and the things they throw out about Sam and Jared almost literally has steam coming out of my ears.
I’ll stop now before I launch myself into one of my 4 AM rambles, but I swear I am never going to read fan comments again!
PetraO, hello – I’m amazed at how much sense you’re able to make at 4 am.
The comment I mentioned is to be found directly after the jump to the question of how the last episode was – but, really, it’s not worth even looking for. Will probably only irritate you.
Staying away from all comments? Hopefully you will not cease to read what’s going on here on the WinchesterFamilyBusiness site… there is more respect and fun and mutual understanding than I have found on other sites. And – since I really don’t have time to hang around in the www all my ‘friggin’ day, I choose with care. I’m in constant awe when I read the comments here. They are sometimes passionate, yes, sometimes expressing annoyance, but what I’ve seen so far, it is more a exciting, fun-loving banter than going into battle. I haven’t heard anyone sharpening theirs axes as of yet.
Hope you will sleep better tonight, Jas
Jas,
Yes, I am definiteley staying in touch here. This is the only place I comment, because I know nobody is going to bite my head of. I spend a lot of time behind my computer typing assignments and essays and I have gathered a rather impressive collection of websites about Supernatural to browse through when I am in desperate need for relaxtion. I can tell you, it’s not exactly relaxing to read all that crap.
On the other hand, it is remarkable how mutch these fictional characters do to us. It really shows how exeptional the writing and acting of is. The fact that people can get so worked up about things happening on their tv screen does say something about the quality of it.
It is still bad for my bloodpressure though.
The insomnia is practically a dayly phenomenon these days, so if I’m talking nonsense it’s probably somewhere between two and six AM around here.
Alright people…I’m wading into the mud! Only, there is no mud..because everyone here seems to be pretty rational, which is why I love this site.
I’m the youngest sibling out of four, so I really understand Sam’s perspective of the ‘argument’. That being said however, I’ve never been pro-Sam or pro-Dean or pro-anything (I generally say that I’m anti-stupid, lol). They are both fictional human beings that’ll screw up royally from time to time, because hec, that’s what makes a story dammit. So I sit back and enjoy the on-screen drama, while avoiding the online drama.
On a different note, I wouldn’t say that there’s such a thing as apologizing ‘too much’ in a Winchester’s case. Let’s face it, those boys are damaged and we love them for it.
Hi folks,
PetraO – glad to hear that you will not leave here. Relax. Have some nice hot chocolate in this cold weather and tell yourself that you’re not part of the other club.
narcissus (hopefully, this is right, (all your names got cut off today,) if not: my apologies) – good call! We love the on-screen drama, while not giving ‘A rat’s ass’ (ah, Sammy, always good for a quote) about the online drama.
Allow me for once to get really arrogant here (as a result of being annoyed by the rude comments I’ve read and am going to avoid in the future) -The online drama is hardly anything else than evidence for people’s shortcomings, especially in terms of social skills.
Some fans who need to remix the mud probably also believe that Sam or Dean (or Jared and Jensen for that matter) belong to them, that they actually share a life and that they are entitled to critizise someone else’s creation (and insult someone’s talent, acting skills, looks, etc.. come on).
Those fans, unfortunately, have yet to learn that you cannot replace a lack of brain material with a big mough. Ouch.
Sorry, dear reasonable minds here on this site… That hurt. Not my way, usually, but now I feel better.
Do take care everyone, and God bless. Jas
It’s Thursday night and Supernatural credits just came to an end.
The fans sat silent to reflect and comprehend.
Too much to absorb believe a re-watch is in order.
Bless those who invented the video recorder.
The second watch is done and minds are now clear.
It’s getting late, but the fans will persevere.
For they are off to their websites to read the reviews,
Read all of the comments and to share their own views.
But wait what is this that we are reading.
Some fans stating things that could be misleading.
What are they saying? This must be a joke!
It’s a tease, it’s a lie, it’s just to provoke.
But the fans are now fighting and taking a side.
They’re becoming angry and nasty as they quickly divide.
They must take it all back or do a re-write.
For with them being so vile tempers are going to ignite.
Saying Dean is childish, a pervert and so mean.
And he gets all the great lines and far too many scenes.
He’s self righteous, the hero all because of his deal.
But lets not forget who broke the first seal.
Then there’s Sam all whiny, selfish and ungrateful.
He slept with a demon and was never truthful.
He betrayed and strangled his brother as well.
He went off with Ruby and freed Lucifer from hell.
And of course there is Castiel, he has been dragged in it too.
For he’s in too many shows and they want to bid him adieu.
He won’t even own up to his part in the apocalypse.
Just adds on the blame to the brother’s many slips.
Then there are the writers, oh they thought they’d sneak through.
But the fandom is quick to lay blame on them too.
For they have been handing in too many holes in their scripts.
They’re not consistent and they’re flawed with too many quips
And finally Kripke, what have you been doing?
The apocalypse is upon us, yet nothing is brewing.
Where are the battles the wars and the fights?
This season was to go beyond great heights.
Ok that’s enough of all this negativity.
This bickering is taking away the fans respectability.
What happened to being adults and acting our age?
And the love for the brothers we use to engage.
It was always interesting to see what others had to say.
Even the different takes and opinion of those that were risqué.
Where are the fans that were always friendly and polite?
Who would encourage other views without stating who’s right.
It’s time to let go of the anger and hostility.
Take a step back and regain our sensibility.
For this maybe the show’s last season.
So lets not end this year in a state of high treason.
Karen, I LOVE YOUR POEMS. So right about it all. As far as where have all the sensible fans gone?….they’re right here on this site! 😀
Yes, this is definitley the only place you can find sane Supernatural fans (isn’t that an oxymoron?). Honestly, if you hate Sam or Dean or Castiel or the witers or Kripke that much, why bother watching?
Hi Sablegreen and PetraO.
I couldn’t agree with you more. This site is definately where all the sensible and respectable fans are. Also thank-you for liking the poem.
Karen, that poem is impossible to not-like..because it is so true! I loved it!
I’m afraid I am resposible for aother obsessed fangirl… My mom! We just watched the first four episodes in a row and she loved it.
Thankfully she doesn’t really use the internet all that much, so I don;t have to warn her about the fanwars.
Karen, I am printing that poem and framing it. It is awesome!
I’m putting it in my Supernatural Album with my other cherished show items. Karen, you should post that on the sites that are fighting. Maybe it will make them STOP & THINK!! 😉
Hi Sablegreen.
When I wrote the poem I had no intensions of posting it on any site.
I was very dishearten and frustrated at what I was seeing on other sites that made me write it. I needed to vent.
And truth be told I honestly thought it would be taken wrong and possibly create more riffs if I did post it.
Not that the other sites don’t have fans that are sensible and respectful. It just seems that certain ones always seem to get everyone going. It’s not necessarily what they say, it’s how they are saying it.
There is so much anger and hostility and for me I can’t understand how a show that has touched me in such a positive way, could possibly bring out such negativity in others.
When I decided to post it, this was the only site that I felt would appreciate and respect what was written.
So once again I send out a deeply felt thanks to you, PetraO and Narissus and Alice for you positive feed back.
By the way Karen, I’m going to link to this page over at my LJ…people should see your poem!
Handbags At Dawn! 😆 😆 😆
‘Fess up Alice, you’ve been dying to run that clip ever since the last outbreak of fangurl hairpulling stupidity!
I can’t believe the amount of bile some people can generate over a TV show, although it’s almost worth wading through all the sound and fury for that poem …
Cheers, I’m glad to be back too! 😀
What concerns me about the way Dean and Sam “reconciled” in this episode was that Sam laid the blame on Dean for Sam’s own behavior. He said the *words*, “It’s my fault”, but when it came to the *meat* of taking responsibility (ie, accepting blame and committing to changing his behavior), he left that on Dean’s shoulders.
I’m not saying that’s not realistic. I’m not saying that’s not how some guys act. And I’m certainly not saying I want them to be women. (I hope there are no strawman arguments that I missed, when it comes to how others have attempted to dismiss this point of view in the past few weeks, but let it be known that I reject any other potential strawmen as well.)
What I do think is that this isn’t yet over… because Sam’s greatest hope is to be treated as an adult, and yet in the very same moment he said so, he handed the reins of adulthood to Dean again by giving Dean the responsibility for Sam’s bad behavior, and also giving him the obligation to fix it. That strips Sam of his autonomy, and lays the weight of his behavior on Dean… who, at that moment, becomes the sole adult in the relationship, as the parent is responsible for the behavior of the child.
Furthermore, Sam is tricking himself by saying that he clung to Ruby because Dean was being controlling, as he clung to Ruby while Dean was being tortured in Hell, lightyears away from him and in no position to exert control. There must have been other reasons he went to Ruby other than to get away from Dean, and I believe he articulated them in Metamorphosis… the desire to have control over the powers that heretofore had only been a curse. That made a lot of sense. But this explanation, when the Ruby partnership originated while Dean was dead, does not. So, contrary to what some have said, I don’t believe all of Sam’s character development (or Dean’s) with relation to season 4 is yet complete. I think there’s a lot more self-discovery, self-knowledge, and honest reconciliation to come.