Announcing: The WFB “Canon-Ball” Award!
Announcing: The “Canon-Ball” Award!
In keeping with the positive, show-loving nature of The Winchester Family Business, I propose a new and ongoing contest, with multiple possible winners. Here’s my challenge: find a show-affirming alternative to just griping about apparent inconsistencies between current stories and what you perceive as show “canon” from previous episodes. Instead of just bitching about a seeming “retcon,” find a plausible, well-reasoned explanation for how and why a seeming difference actually just builds upon and develops an earlier truth. If you can, you could be the recipient of a (non-tangible!) “Canon-Ball Award”!
There’s a long history behind this idea. Many, many years ago, in the very early days of Marvel Comics, publisher Stan Lee created the “No-Prize,” which was awarded to any reader who, upon seeing something in one of the comics that seemed to be inconsistent with either the art or the past story, came up with a plausible explanation that made the apparent error instead something that fit logically within the comics’ world. As the name implied, the “No-Prize” had no tangible form or material value, but readers nonetheless vied to earn them by being positively creative instead of angrily and dismissively critical.
I think this is something Supernatural fandom could really use right now. It’s very easy to criticize when you’re not the one responsible for bringing out a new episode on schedule and within budget week after week; not the one who has to write a script in a couple of weeks, or find locations that work, or design and build sets within a week, or quickly design and execute costume, makeup, and effects, or act within or direct the shooting and then edit all the footage to capture every possible element in the script and make it fit within an ever-growing and complex history. Fans have a lot more time to peruse and internalize details of past episodes than do the people responsible for bringing us the show. Think about it: they put in 12-plus-hour days for nine months straight to capture a single season of 22 or 23 episodes. We get to digest their work in concise, straightforwardly presented, 42-minute finished segments once each week. Who has the easier perspective?
I’m not saying criticism isn’t warranted. Hell, I’ve taken the creative team – especially the writers in their beginning-of-season planning sessions – to task in some of my reviews for decisions I thought were ill-considered, and I’ll do it again. But I’ve also always sought ways to make most things fit, too, because I do believe everyone involved with making the show wants to make the best possible product they can, and thus had reasons that seemed rational and reasonable to them for the decisions they made.
So rather than taking the easy avenue of bitching criticism, can you find a positive interpretation for one thing you dismissed as a retcon? I dare you! I double-dog dare you!
Can YOU win a Canon-Ball?
(Legal disclaimer: the Canon-Ball would not involve any actual physical award. Alas, WFB doesn’t have a tangible Ball-generator!)
The gorgeous image I’ve used for the Canon-Ball came from fan Lisa Foster Diamont; it’s a photograph of an ornament made as a present for Lisa by fan Claudia Drinovsky. My thanks to both Lisa and Claudia for letting me use their beautiful work for this fun purpose!
Oh I’m all over this since… [url=https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/episode-related/18034-plot-of-azazel]*cough*[/url]. XD
Though I reserve the right to still pitch fits. I need to get it out of my system for my blood pressure you know. 😉
Oh I’m all over this since… *cough* ([url]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/episode-related/18034-plot-of-azazel[/url]). XD
Though I reserve the right to still pitch fits. I need to get it out of my system for my blood pressure you know. 😉
Oh I am so excited for this idea! Clever!
Oh I am so excited for this idea! Clever!
Brilliant idea! Between Alice’s article and this new opportunity/challenge, I am so excited by this site right now. Back at you with some ideas soon.
Brilliant idea! Between Alice’s article and this new opportunity/challenge, I am so excited by this site right now. Back at you with some ideas soon.
When does this start? With new eps starting 1/14 or anything previous?
When does this start? With new eps starting 1/14 or anything previous?
Start with anything you like! In fact, I’ll start with the Grand Canyon. I know that I was tweaked with many others by the disclosure in [i]The Great Escapist[/i] that the Winchesters *had* visited the Grand Canyon as kids, when Dean made a point way back in season two of saying that they’d never been there in all their wandering.
But here’s the thing. Over Thanksgiving, my sisters and I were going through old photos, and I had some visceral demonstrations of the variability of memory. In particular, there were a few photos of us on horseback as kids. My two older sisters looked at those pictures and had no memory of the time or place at all. Even when I named the horse I was on and specified where we were, and talked about details of the place we visited multiple times one summer, they still didn’t recall [i]anything[/i] – and they were older than I, with the photos to prove we’d been there. Other things from that summer occupied their minds and shut out the memories of Rocking Horse Riding Stable.
So now, to my mind, I’m comfortable with Sam and Dean having had no memories of visiting the Grand Canyon until Sam’s fever brought them back to the surface. I’ve created my own little backstory in which, not far from the time Sam learned the truth about the family business, John took them to the Grand Canyon to be with them and distract them after a hunt almost went horribly wrong, but the boys’ worries overwhelmed their memories of the mini-vacation, making the diversion a very short-lived success.
So; how’s that for a way to fit in the seeming disconnect? 🙂
Start with anything you like! In fact, I’ll start with the Grand Canyon. I know that I was tweaked with many others by the disclosure in [i]The Great Escapist[/i] that the Winchesters *had* visited the Grand Canyon as kids, when Dean made a point way back in season two of saying that they’d never been there in all their wandering.
But here’s the thing. Over Thanksgiving, my sisters and I were going through old photos, and I had some visceral demonstrations of the variability of memory. In particular, there were a few photos of us on horseback as kids. My two older sisters looked at those pictures and had no memory of the time or place at all. Even when I named the horse I was on and specified where we were, and talked about details of the place we visited multiple times one summer, they still didn’t recall [i]anything[/i] – and they were older than I, with the photos to prove we’d been there. Other things from that summer occupied their minds and shut out the memories of Rocking Horse Riding Stable.
So now, to my mind, I’m comfortable with Sam and Dean having had no memories of visiting the Grand Canyon until Sam’s fever brought them back to the surface. I’ve created my own little backstory in which, not far from the time Sam learned the truth about the family business, John took them to the Grand Canyon to be with them and distract them after a hunt almost went horribly wrong, but the boys’ worries overwhelmed their memories of the mini-vacation, making the diversion a very short-lived success.
So; how’s that for a way to fit in the seeming disconnect? 🙂
Bardicvoice… wonderful explanation!! I just watched that episode today and you know… Dean did screw his face up all squinty and looked like he still didn’t remember the incident. lol.
The inconsistency in “Bad Boys” where a 12 year old Sam is playing with an airplane. Some say he was too old for that. I say this-
Sam did not have much of a childhood, so I could see him grabbing at every chance he got. I’m thinking this may be a special toy to him. As seen in previous episodes he never had many frivolities. John wasn’t there for most of their Christmas’.
John may have gotten this for him to ease his aching heart. Dean was away, hurt. Sam was probably upset and wanted to go to his brother right away. John bought him the plane before taking him to bobby’s to ease that ache. He wanted to give Sam something else to focus on. It worked. It brought the child out in him and for a moment he was able to be a kid. It may have given John a chance to bond a little with Sam while Dean was away, too.
I loved Dean looking out at Sam to see his little bro being a kid… reminded him why Sam needed him so much.
P
.
Bardicvoice… wonderful explanation!! I just watched that episode today and you know… Dean did screw his face up all squinty and looked like he still didn’t remember the incident. lol.
The inconsistency in “Bad Boys” where a 12 year old Sam is playing with an airplane. Some say he was too old for that. I say this-
Sam did not have much of a childhood, so I could see him grabbing at every chance he got. I’m thinking this may be a special toy to him. As seen in previous episodes he never had many frivolities. John wasn’t there for most of their Christmas’.
John may have gotten this for him to ease his aching heart. Dean was away, hurt. Sam was probably upset and wanted to go to his brother right away. John bought him the plane before taking him to bobby’s to ease that ache. He wanted to give Sam something else to focus on. It worked. It brought the child out in him and for a moment he was able to be a kid. It may have given John a chance to bond a little with Sam while Dean was away, too.
I loved Dean looking out at Sam to see his little bro being a kid… reminded him why Sam needed him so much.
P
.
Excellent, I love it! The Grand Canyon reference was one of the glaring misses that did bother me, and I am hardly a huge stickler on canon, especially for minor details, as long as the emotions of the brothers ring true. I do think memory is fluid and fleeting!
I think this same explanation works for the Rugaru mention in Bad Boys. Maybe Dean wasn’t all that familiar with the details of the Rugaru hunt because he wasn’t that involved with Dad’s first case when he ended up at the Boys Home. Maybe being on his own Rugaru hunt later made the details click for him and he then realized that was what Dad was hunting back then. Young Dean had other priorities at the time.
Speaking of Bad Boys, I am also fascinated by perceptions and how each character sees things differently and how we may think we know what happened but it is always colored by who is remembering and what details they and we are privy to. I’m speaking of what a bastard John appeared to be back then, leaving Dean at the home and then not listening to reason when he came and demanded Dean drop everything and join him on a hunt.
I like that Dean was again understanding of Dad’s position and knew that Sam was going to object to the treatment Dean received. I don’t think we know the whole story on that. Why Dad might have decided it was best to leave Dean there, and I don’t believe it was simply to punish him. I’m thinking there were other factors in play, maybe John knowing Dean needed someone around more, that being on his own was not a good thing and since John couldn’t be there, maybe he’d researched Sonny and knew he was a good man, knew he could provide a solid foundation for his son. Maybe it was a gift of time for his son, letting him NOT be responsible for his younger brother for a short time. Sam was with Bobby and that was a good and safe place for him.
Maybe John saw Dean becoming too wild and needed the regiment of a structured environment, like boot camp for wayward kids. It did turn out to be a pivotal time for Dean, a chance to be a regular kid and not be burdoned with all that responsibility. BTW, I loved his talk of fixing up cars and then sending them on their way and not being responsible for them after. Quite telling.
Now, John coming and insisting Dean leave that night… Maybe it was an important case, maybe it was Caleb or Bobby in peril and they needed to act fast. Maybe it was simply John not understanding how important it was to Dean and failing at being the soft and cuddly understanding dad. It’s not that he was cruel because he proved his love for his sons in words and deeds later. If anything John Winchester was often distracted by evil and insensitive to his sons’ tender needs. I don’t think he’d ever think a school dance was important or would be considered important by his strong & loyal son. Perception, something like that would be inconceivable to a hunter.
So while all of John’s actions might not be the best, his love for his sons and hopes to keep them safe are what I hold on to. Even Sam has learned to forgive him his failings.
Excellent, I love it! The Grand Canyon reference was one of the glaring misses that did bother me, and I am hardly a huge stickler on canon, especially for minor details, as long as the emotions of the brothers ring true. I do think memory is fluid and fleeting!
I think this same explanation works for the Rugaru mention in Bad Boys. Maybe Dean wasn’t all that familiar with the details of the Rugaru hunt because he wasn’t that involved with Dad’s first case when he ended up at the Boys Home. Maybe being on his own Rugaru hunt later made the details click for him and he then realized that was what Dad was hunting back then. Young Dean had other priorities at the time.
Speaking of Bad Boys, I am also fascinated by perceptions and how each character sees things differently and how we may think we know what happened but it is always colored by who is remembering and what details they and we are privy to. I’m speaking of what a bastard John appeared to be back then, leaving Dean at the home and then not listening to reason when he came and demanded Dean drop everything and join him on a hunt.
I like that Dean was again understanding of Dad’s position and knew that Sam was going to object to the treatment Dean received. I don’t think we know the whole story on that. Why Dad might have decided it was best to leave Dean there, and I don’t believe it was simply to punish him. I’m thinking there were other factors in play, maybe John knowing Dean needed someone around more, that being on his own was not a good thing and since John couldn’t be there, maybe he’d researched Sonny and knew he was a good man, knew he could provide a solid foundation for his son. Maybe it was a gift of time for his son, letting him NOT be responsible for his younger brother for a short time. Sam was with Bobby and that was a good and safe place for him.
Maybe John saw Dean becoming too wild and needed the regiment of a structured environment, like boot camp for wayward kids. It did turn out to be a pivotal time for Dean, a chance to be a regular kid and not be burdoned with all that responsibility. BTW, I loved his talk of fixing up cars and then sending them on their way and not being responsible for them after. Quite telling.
Now, John coming and insisting Dean leave that night… Maybe it was an important case, maybe it was Caleb or Bobby in peril and they needed to act fast. Maybe it was simply John not understanding how important it was to Dean and failing at being the soft and cuddly understanding dad. It’s not that he was cruel because he proved his love for his sons in words and deeds later. If anything John Winchester was often distracted by evil and insensitive to his sons’ tender needs. I don’t think he’d ever think a school dance was important or would be considered important by his strong & loyal son. Perception, something like that would be inconceivable to a hunter.
So while all of John’s actions might not be the best, his love for his sons and hopes to keep them safe are what I hold on to. Even Sam has learned to forgive him his failings.
Love this idea! AND I love the explanations here already. They work for me! Thank you for writing this and getting this started. I don’t usually get bugged by things that don’t “fit” – I am usually just happy to be watching the show and miss a lot of those – reading about them later from others. 🙂 This is great!
Love this idea! AND I love the explanations here already. They work for me! Thank you for writing this and getting this started. I don’t usually get bugged by things that don’t “fit” – I am usually just happy to be watching the show and miss a lot of those – reading about them later from others. 🙂 This is great!
[quote name=”Bardicvoice”]Start with anything you like! In fact, I’ll start with the Grand Canyon. I know that I was tweaked with many others by the disclosure in [i]The Great Escapist[/i] that the Winchesters *had* visited the Grand Canyon as kids, when Dean made a point way back in season two of saying that they’d never been there in all their wandering.
But here’s the thing. Over Thanksgiving, my sisters and I were going through old photos, and I had some visceral demonstrations of the variability of memory. In particular, there were a few photos of us on horseback as kids. My two older sisters looked at those pictures and had no memory of the time or place at all. Even when I named the horse I was on and specified where we were, and talked about details of the place we visited multiple times one summer, they still didn’t recall [i]anything[/i] – and they were older than I, with the photos to prove we’d been there. Other things from that summer occupied their minds and shut out the memories of Rocking Horse Riding Stable.
So now, to my mind, I’m comfortable with Sam and Dean having had no memories of visiting the Grand Canyon until Sam’s fever brought them back to the surface. I’ve created my own little backstory in which, not far from the time Sam learned the truth about the family business, John took them to the Grand Canyon to be with them and distract them after a hunt almost went horribly wrong, but the boys’ worries overwhelmed their memories of the mini-vacation, making the diversion a very short-lived success.
So; how’s that for a way to fit in the seeming disconnect? :)[/quote]
Bardicvoice – agreed; I had made a similar argument when the episode aired about my forgotten childhood visit to Niagara Falls.
This, coupled with the fact that both Sam and Dean have had their memories wiped/altered on multiple occasions, and it has been established that wiping memories can be dangerous, put this one in the “I’ll let it slide” category, at least for me anyway.
Time permitting this weekend, I might take a crack at justifying the very canon-controversial rogue reapers.
[quote]Start with anything you like! In fact, I’ll start with the Grand Canyon. I know that I was tweaked with many others by the disclosure in [i]The Great Escapist[/i] that the Winchesters *had* visited the Grand Canyon as kids, when Dean made a point way back in season two of saying that they’d never been there in all their wandering.
But here’s the thing. Over Thanksgiving, my sisters and I were going through old photos, and I had some visceral demonstrations of the variability of memory. In particular, there were a few photos of us on horseback as kids. My two older sisters looked at those pictures and had no memory of the time or place at all. Even when I named the horse I was on and specified where we were, and talked about details of the place we visited multiple times one summer, they still didn’t recall [i]anything[/i] – and they were older than I, with the photos to prove we’d been there. Other things from that summer occupied their minds and shut out the memories of Rocking Horse Riding Stable.
So now, to my mind, I’m comfortable with Sam and Dean having had no memories of visiting the Grand Canyon until Sam’s fever brought them back to the surface. I’ve created my own little backstory in which, not far from the time Sam learned the truth about the family business, John took them to the Grand Canyon to be with them and distract them after a hunt almost went horribly wrong, but the boys’ worries overwhelmed their memories of the mini-vacation, making the diversion a very short-lived success.
So; how’s that for a way to fit in the seeming disconnect? :)[/quote]
Bardicvoice – agreed; I had made a similar argument when the episode aired about my forgotten childhood visit to Niagara Falls.
This, coupled with the fact that both Sam and Dean have had their memories wiped/altered on multiple occasions, and it has been established that wiping memories can be dangerous, put this one in the “I’ll let it slide” category, at least for me anyway.
Time permitting this weekend, I might take a crack at justifying the very canon-controversial rogue reapers.
Bardicvoice, I’m totally on-board with your explanation. This kind of stuff happens all the time with me and my older siblings–I remember something so clearly and they look at me like I’m crazy and it was probably a delusion, then my mom will confirm it or we find a photo–I don’t know, it seems that it’s usually something that left an impression on me and for them it was just another day. So yeah, it didn’t pull me out of the scene or anything, there was a bit of an eye roll and sigh, though.
bjxmas-I went a much more lazy way–I decided that since the episode was scripted for Dean to be 14 (which would make Sam 10) that I just pretend to mishear the lines where Dean says he’s 16. Almost the entire episode makes sense for me then. It’s not so weird for a 10-year-old Sam to be playing with that plane, plus Dean’s “first” kiss makes more sense if he was 14.
njspnfan–Please do!–I was hoping someone would try to make the rogue reapers make sense, it’s really the only thing that has cannon-ly been jarring for me lately. It’s not like there aren’t a lot of little things that don’t line up, but I can usually ignore most of them or make them work–but these rogue reapers…everything about them is just so wrong!
Bardicvoice, I’m totally on-board with your explanation. This kind of stuff happens all the time with me and my older siblings–I remember something so clearly and they look at me like I’m crazy and it was probably a delusion, then my mom will confirm it or we find a photo–I don’t know, it seems that it’s usually something that left an impression on me and for them it was just another day. So yeah, it didn’t pull me out of the scene or anything, there was a bit of an eye roll and sigh, though.
bjxmas-I went a much more lazy way–I decided that since the episode was scripted for Dean to be 14 (which would make Sam 10) that I just pretend to mishear the lines where Dean says he’s 16. Almost the entire episode makes sense for me then. It’s not so weird for a 10-year-old Sam to be playing with that plane, plus Dean’s “first” kiss makes more sense if he was 14.
njspnfan–Please do!–I was hoping someone would try to make the rogue reapers make sense, it’s really the only thing that has cannon-ly been jarring for me lately. It’s not like there aren’t a lot of little things that don’t line up, but I can usually ignore most of them or make them work–but these rogue reapers…everything about them is just so wrong!
It’s funny, but the rogue reapers weren’t that huge of a deal for me, in and of themselves. I think opportunistic sleezebags exist everywhere! And the guy who played him did a great job. My issue was more the ease of Sam slipping into Purgatory and then Hell and then making a quick get-a-way with not much fuss. So if someone wants to tackle that aspect, I’d love to hear a plausible explanation.
I will say, I tend to suspend my disbelief alot if the action takes me to an emotional reveal for the boys. If the payoff is great enough! I think finally getting to see what Jerry Wanek could do to bring Hell to life was awesome! Yeah, Sam found Bobby too easily, but the Hell we saw is what I imagined it to be, scary and creepy, and full of tangible despair and a lot of mind-games to torment you.
I’m hoping the Purgatory scene holds the door open for Dean to mount a rescue mission for Benny or for some other cause to have him reentering Purgatory. I LOVED all the Purgatory scenes and I LOVE Benny, so for that hope, I’ll forgive any ease that Sam had in navigating the place.
B.J.
It’s funny, but the rogue reapers weren’t that huge of a deal for me, in and of themselves. I think opportunistic sleezebags exist everywhere! And the guy who played him did a great job. My issue was more the ease of Sam slipping into Purgatory and then Hell and then making a quick get-a-way with not much fuss. So if someone wants to tackle that aspect, I’d love to hear a plausible explanation.
I will say, I tend to suspend my disbelief alot if the action takes me to an emotional reveal for the boys. If the payoff is great enough! I think finally getting to see what Jerry Wanek could do to bring Hell to life was awesome! Yeah, Sam found Bobby too easily, but the Hell we saw is what I imagined it to be, scary and creepy, and full of tangible despair and a lot of mind-games to torment you.
I’m hoping the Purgatory scene holds the door open for Dean to mount a rescue mission for Benny or for some other cause to have him reentering Purgatory. I LOVED all the Purgatory scenes and I LOVE Benny, so for that hope, I’ll forgive any ease that Sam had in navigating the place.
B.J.
[quote name=”bjxmas”]It’s funny, but the rogue reapers weren’t that huge of a deal for me, in and of themselves. I think opportunistic sleezebags exist everywhere! And the guy who played him did a great job. My issue was more the ease of Sam slipping into Purgatory and then Hell and then making a quick get-a-way with not much fuss. So if someone wants to tackle that aspect, I’d love to hear a plausible explanation..[/quote]
For me, it’s not that the reapers are rogue, but that now everyone and their sister can apparently see them when in every prior episode one needed to be in the veil (or an angel/demon) to see them. Plus, the fact that the angel sword suddenly could kill them when I was under the impression that the only thing that could kill them was the curly knife thing.
As for a better explanation for Sam’s easy jaunt through both Hell and Purgatory,I just decided that Dean didn’t have a tour guide like Sam did with Ajay and Benny. It’s sometimes best to book in advance and get someone to show you the sights so you don’t spend the better part of a year wandering around looking for your angel and stuff.. ; ) Sorry, it’s not particularly creative, but it’s what worked for me.
[quote]It’s funny, but the rogue reapers weren’t that huge of a deal for me, in and of themselves. I think opportunistic sleezebags exist everywhere! And the guy who played him did a great job. My issue was more the ease of Sam slipping into Purgatory and then Hell and then making a quick get-a-way with not much fuss. So if someone wants to tackle that aspect, I’d love to hear a plausible explanation..[/quote]
For me, it’s not that the reapers are rogue, but that now everyone and their sister can apparently see them when in every prior episode one needed to be in the veil (or an angel/demon) to see them. Plus, the fact that the angel sword suddenly could kill them when I was under the impression that the only thing that could kill them was the curly knife thing.
As for a better explanation for Sam’s easy jaunt through both Hell and Purgatory,I just decided that Dean didn’t have a tour guide like Sam did with Ajay and Benny. It’s sometimes best to book in advance and get someone to show you the sights so you don’t spend the better part of a year wandering around looking for your angel and stuff.. ; ) Sorry, it’s not particularly creative, but it’s what worked for me.
[quote name=”ME”]
For me, it’s not that the reapers are rogue, but that now everyone and their sister can apparently see them when in every prior episode one needed to be in the veil (or an angel/demon) to see them. Plus, the fact that the angel sword suddenly could kill them when I was under the impression that the only thing that could kill them was the curly knife thing.
As for a better explanation for Sam’s easy jaunt through both Hell and Purgatory,I just decided that Dean didn’t have a tour guide like Sam did with Ajay and Benny. It’s sometimes best to book in advance and get someone to show you the sights so you don’t spend the better part of a year wandering around looking for your angel and stuff.. ; ) Sorry, it’s not particularly creative, but it’s what worked for me.[/quote]
LOL I love it! Yes, tour guides are wonderful! That totally works for me.
Okay, now I see the issue with the rogue reapers! I wasn’t even thinking along those lines of Sam and Dean being able to see them! So…my explanation is, Ajay wasn’t “on the job” when they contacted him, or rather, he was on his side job! When he’s reaping, he IS invisible, but when he’s looking for an extra payday, he is able to “portray” that regular cab driver so he can communicate with potential clients!
As far as the angel blade being able to kill them, I think the angel blade is pretty powerful and since it hadn’t been tried before and proven ineffective, I totally bought that it was capable of killing a reaper. What I found confusing was, the effects when it killed the girl reaper in I’m No Angel, had me thinking she was an angel and not a reaper. I would have preferred different affects so it was obvious that different creatures were being killed.
B.J.
[quote]
For me, it’s not that the reapers are rogue, but that now everyone and their sister can apparently see them when in every prior episode one needed to be in the veil (or an angel/demon) to see them. Plus, the fact that the angel sword suddenly could kill them when I was under the impression that the only thing that could kill them was the curly knife thing.
As for a better explanation for Sam’s easy jaunt through both Hell and Purgatory,I just decided that Dean didn’t have a tour guide like Sam did with Ajay and Benny. It’s sometimes best to book in advance and get someone to show you the sights so you don’t spend the better part of a year wandering around looking for your angel and stuff.. ; ) Sorry, it’s not particularly creative, but it’s what worked for me.[/quote]
LOL I love it! Yes, tour guides are wonderful! That totally works for me.
Okay, now I see the issue with the rogue reapers! I wasn’t even thinking along those lines of Sam and Dean being able to see them! So…my explanation is, Ajay wasn’t “on the job” when they contacted him, or rather, he was on his side job! When he’s reaping, he IS invisible, but when he’s looking for an extra payday, he is able to “portray” that regular cab driver so he can communicate with potential clients!
As far as the angel blade being able to kill them, I think the angel blade is pretty powerful and since it hadn’t been tried before and proven ineffective, I totally bought that it was capable of killing a reaper. What I found confusing was, the effects when it killed the girl reaper in I’m No Angel, had me thinking she was an angel and not a reaper. I would have preferred different affects so it was obvious that different creatures were being killed.
B.J.
[quote name=”bjxmas”]It’s funny, but the rogue reapers weren’t that huge of a deal for me, in and of themselves. I think opportunistic sleezebags exist everywhere! And the guy who played him did a great job. My issue was more the ease of Sam slipping into Purgatory and then Hell and then making a quick get-a-way with not much fuss. So if someone wants to tackle that aspect, I’d love to hear a plausible explanation.
B.J.[/quote]
I have an idea of why it may have been so easy for Sam to get to Hell through Purgatory.
The way to hell would be clear.. because even vampires, werewolves, witches and such have better sense than to want to go there. They probably stay clear of the place.
When he came back out of hell. Again, no one would be around that area. Bobby just came from Hell so I’m thinking maybe some hell vibes were still floating around him. Heck, maybe he stank like hell, thus keeping all supernatural beings away. The encounters were when Sam and Bobby got close to the exit way. It makes sense that the “bad guys” would be hanging around there. They want to get out of Purgatory, too.
How does that sound?
[quote]It’s funny, but the rogue reapers weren’t that huge of a deal for me, in and of themselves. I think opportunistic sleezebags exist everywhere! And the guy who played him did a great job. My issue was more the ease of Sam slipping into Purgatory and then Hell and then making a quick get-a-way with not much fuss. So if someone wants to tackle that aspect, I’d love to hear a plausible explanation.
B.J.[/quote]
I have an idea of why it may have been so easy for Sam to get to Hell through Purgatory.
The way to hell would be clear.. because even vampires, werewolves, witches and such have better sense than to want to go there. They probably stay clear of the place.
When he came back out of hell. Again, no one would be around that area. Bobby just came from Hell so I’m thinking maybe some hell vibes were still floating around him. Heck, maybe he stank like hell, thus keeping all supernatural beings away. The encounters were when Sam and Bobby got close to the exit way. It makes sense that the “bad guys” would be hanging around there. They want to get out of Purgatory, too.
How does that sound?
[quote name=”ME”]
bjxmas-I went a much more lazy way–I decided that since the episode was scripted for Dean to be 14 (which would make Sam 10) that I just pretend to mishear the lines where Dean says he’s 16. Almost the entire episode makes sense for me then. It’s not so weird for a 10-year-old Sam to be playing with that plane, plus Dean’s “first” kiss makes more sense if he was 14.
g![/quote]
I knew it had originally been written that way, they were suppose to be younger and you’re right it makes more sense.
I have speculated about this being Dean’s first kiss before. We all know he’s a ladies man and in “After School Special” he was a cocky ass. And he was what 17, about a year later.
My speculation is that this is why! He hadn’t had a chance to meet girls, or develop any kind of relationship with them due to the hunting schedule John kept. They were never in one place long enough.
Here, in “Bad Boys”, is the first time for him to get to know someone, to develop feelings. That goes to shit, right? He ends up having to leave her behind and he gets his heart broken for the first time.
After this encounter Dean hardened his heart. No more was he going to let a girl in just to get his heart broke. He learned at 16, that he would never be able to be with a girl/ woman that way. This is the start of why Dean uses women only for sex.
[quote]
bjxmas-I went a much more lazy way–I decided that since the episode was scripted for Dean to be 14 (which would make Sam 10) that I just pretend to mishear the lines where Dean says he’s 16. Almost the entire episode makes sense for me then. It’s not so weird for a 10-year-old Sam to be playing with that plane, plus Dean’s “first” kiss makes more sense if he was 14.
g![/quote]
I knew it had originally been written that way, they were suppose to be younger and you’re right it makes more sense.
I have speculated about this being Dean’s first kiss before. We all know he’s a ladies man and in “After School Special” he was a cocky ass. And he was what 17, about a year later.
My speculation is that this is why! He hadn’t had a chance to meet girls, or develop any kind of relationship with them due to the hunting schedule John kept. They were never in one place long enough.
Here, in “Bad Boys”, is the first time for him to get to know someone, to develop feelings. That goes to shit, right? He ends up having to leave her behind and he gets his heart broken for the first time.
After this encounter Dean hardened his heart. No more was he going to let a girl in just to get his heart broke. He learned at 16, that he would never be able to be with a girl/ woman that way. This is the start of why Dean uses women only for sex.
I don’t think it is too far fetch that Sam would be playing with a toy plane even if he was 12. I have had to break up “fights” between my 14 year old niece and her way younger brothers over my toy plane. It may have been a token gift from John because he knew that Sam would not have been happy being separated from Dean and living alone with Bobby. It also could have been a toy he picked up at Bobby’s. And at the time he had been told by his dad that Dean had been lost or away on a hunt (I cannot remember how they actually phrased that) so I could also see it as a “I know you are worried about your brother but there is no need to – look I bought you a toy so obviously I am not too worried” kind of gift too.
I don’t think it is too far fetch that Sam would be playing with a toy plane even if he was 12. I have had to break up “fights” between my 14 year old niece and her way younger brothers over my toy plane. It may have been a token gift from John because he knew that Sam would not have been happy being separated from Dean and living alone with Bobby. It also could have been a toy he picked up at Bobby’s. And at the time he had been told by his dad that Dean had been lost or away on a hunt (I cannot remember how they actually phrased that) so I could also see it as a “I know you are worried about your brother but there is no need to – look I bought you a toy so obviously I am not too worried” kind of gift too.
[quote name=”jarielynn”]I knew it had originally been written that way, they were suppose to be younger and you’re right it makes more sense.
I have speculated about this being Dean’s first kiss before. We all know he’s a ladies man and in “After School Special” he was a cocky ass. And he was what 17, about a year later.
My speculation is that this is why! He hadn’t had a chance to meet girls, or develop any kind of relationship with them due to the hunting schedule John kept. They were never in one place long enough.
Here, in “Bad Boys”, is the first time for him to get to know someone, to develop feelings. That goes to shit, right? He ends up having to leave her behind and he gets his heart broken for the first time.
After this encounter Dean hardened his heart. No more was he going to let a girl in just to get his heart broke. He learned at 16, that he would never be able to be with a girl/ woman that way. This is the start of why Dean uses women only for sex.[/quote]
I don’t really have a problem with Dean being 14 or 16, I think potentially either could work because of exactly this, that Dean was never in one place long enough to HAVE a true relationship with a girl. His reaction to kissing Robin could have very well been the ’emotional’ aspect of him truly caring for this girl. My first ever fanfic went exactly like this, Dean falling for a girl and through the course of the story realizing that he can’t get emotionally involved, that it is dangerous for her and heartbreak waiting for him, not to mention dangerous to his duty of being a hunter protecting Sammy! In my story I have a scene where he is kissing her for the first time and even tho he’s fooled around with some older women, waitresses and such who found him immensely attractive and appealing, this WAS his first kiss with a girl he truly liked. That puts a different spin on in, more importance, more meaningful, and definitely more emotionally honest than he would feel comfortable exposing himself in.
My only slight quibble with your comment is about Dean using girls just for sex. He is the king of the one night stands but only because he finds comfort in the physical pleasures and because he knows he’s not allowed more. I’ve alway theorized that the sexual revolution was a good thing for Dean because he isn’t ‘using’ women, instead he is seeking out liberated wormen who KNOW it is only a one night thing. I can’t see Dean ever ‘using’ a woman who doesn’t understand the score. He’d never bed a girl who expected him to be around the next day. It is a mutally agreeable adventure and if anything…in many instances I think the women use Dean because of his good looks and physical appeal. That in itself could taint Dean’s view of himself, that he is only good for the sex part and not particularly “boyfriend” long-term worthy. How he may even be scared that if he did stick around they’d see he wasn’t ‘more’ than the pretty packaging. (reference his heartbreaking comments to Jo in Defending Your Life) It sure makes it easier (and safer) to be cavalier and just embrace the joy of sex and avoid all other entanglements!
It’s why I love his encounters with the women who seem to appreciate his many other attributes, like Jamie in Monster Movie or even Lisa, who questioned why Dean thought who he was was such a terrible thing?
Dean might have been inexperienced here, but he sure got with the program and used sex as his one true escape from the life of a hunter. That is probably the only ‘me’ time he gets, his nights to cut loose and lose some of that responsibility.
Yeah…guess you can tell, I love exploring the psyche of our Dean Winchester!
B.J.
[quote]I knew it had originally been written that way, they were suppose to be younger and you’re right it makes more sense.
I have speculated about this being Dean’s first kiss before. We all know he’s a ladies man and in “After School Special” he was a cocky ass. And he was what 17, about a year later.
My speculation is that this is why! He hadn’t had a chance to meet girls, or develop any kind of relationship with them due to the hunting schedule John kept. They were never in one place long enough.
Here, in “Bad Boys”, is the first time for him to get to know someone, to develop feelings. That goes to shit, right? He ends up having to leave her behind and he gets his heart broken for the first time.
After this encounter Dean hardened his heart. No more was he going to let a girl in just to get his heart broke. He learned at 16, that he would never be able to be with a girl/ woman that way. This is the start of why Dean uses women only for sex.[/quote]
I don’t really have a problem with Dean being 14 or 16, I think potentially either could work because of exactly this, that Dean was never in one place long enough to HAVE a true relationship with a girl. His reaction to kissing Robin could have very well been the ’emotional’ aspect of him truly caring for this girl. My first ever fanfic went exactly like this, Dean falling for a girl and through the course of the story realizing that he can’t get emotionally involved, that it is dangerous for her and heartbreak waiting for him, not to mention dangerous to his duty of being a hunter protecting Sammy! In my story I have a scene where he is kissing her for the first time and even tho he’s fooled around with some older women, waitresses and such who found him immensely attractive and appealing, this WAS his first kiss with a girl he truly liked. That puts a different spin on in, more importance, more meaningful, and definitely more emotionally honest than he would feel comfortable exposing himself in.
My only slight quibble with your comment is about Dean using girls just for sex. He is the king of the one night stands but only because he finds comfort in the physical pleasures and because he knows he’s not allowed more. I’ve alway theorized that the sexual revolution was a good thing for Dean because he isn’t ‘using’ women, instead he is seeking out liberated wormen who KNOW it is only a one night thing. I can’t see Dean ever ‘using’ a woman who doesn’t understand the score. He’d never bed a girl who expected him to be around the next day. It is a mutally agreeable adventure and if anything…in many instances I think the women use Dean because of his good looks and physical appeal. That in itself could taint Dean’s view of himself, that he is only good for the sex part and not particularly “boyfriend” long-term worthy. How he may even be scared that if he did stick around they’d see he wasn’t ‘more’ than the pretty packaging. (reference his heartbreaking comments to Jo in Defending Your Life) It sure makes it easier (and safer) to be cavalier and just embrace the joy of sex and avoid all other entanglements!
It’s why I love his encounters with the women who seem to appreciate his many other attributes, like Jamie in Monster Movie or even Lisa, who questioned why Dean thought who he was was such a terrible thing?
Dean might have been inexperienced here, but he sure got with the program and used sex as his one true escape from the life of a hunter. That is probably the only ‘me’ time he gets, his nights to cut loose and lose some of that responsibility.
Yeah…guess you can tell, I love exploring the psyche of our Dean Winchester!
B.J.
OK, I’m going to take a crack at the Rogue Reaper controversy – there’s a brief overview of appearances by Reapers up thru 8.19, followed by my theories/thoughts. All criticisms/corrections/thoughts welcome.
[i]1.12 Faith – a reaper is harnessed – the reaper is able to transfer a life force (Dean’s damaged heart is fixed, but another healthy young male dies of a heart attack). The reaper then kills Sue-Ann Le Grange when Sam smashes the necklace, then kills her. I would argue that this is in direct conflict with future canon (transferring a life force – reapers collect souls, they aren’t supposed to decide who lives/dies)
2.01 In My Time of Dying – Tessa appears to Dean in the veil and tries to convince him to move on; we also find out that reapers can alter human perception to make themselves appear any way they want. She is subsequently possessed by Azazel to hold up his deal with John to save Dean.
4.15 Death Takes a Holiday – Tessa is kidnapped and trapped in a reaper trap by Alastair in an attempt to kill two reapers (using Death’s scythe) to break one of the 66 seals.
5.10 Abandon All Hope – A boatload of reapers show up in Carthage Missouri; Lucifer summons Death.
6.11 Appointment in Samarra – Dean “dies” so he can summon Tessa to contact Death about getting Sam’s soul out of Lucifer’s cage.
7.10 Death’s Door – Bobby evades his reaper to get a message to Sam and Dean. Bobby manages to temporarily trap his reaper with a spell.
8.19 Taxi Driver – this upset many canonistas. We are introduced to Rogue Reapers; they appear in corporeal form and, for a price, will smuggle people and souls in and out of heaven, hell, etc., for a price. Ajay the rogue reaper takes Sam to purgatory and tells him how to find hell as purgatory is “hell adjacent”. Crowley catches wind of this and kills Ajay with a angel sword. This is another perceived lapse in canon, killing a reaper with an angel sword.[/i]
I did have problems with this episode, particularly the ease with how Sam was portrayed to have navigated thru Purgatory and Hell. It was portrayed as just a little bit more difficult than a beer run 🙂 However, the introduction of Rogue Reapers didn’t bother me too much.
[b]Here are my theories/thoughts —–[/b]
1) Reaper lore has been underwritten on the show; we just don’t know as much about them as we do angels, demons, and many monsters. Adding to canon is different than changing canon. That being said, S8 and S9 have introduced us to new types of angels (Rit Zein) and demons (Knights of Hell – Abaddon), so why not a new type of reaper?
2) I submit that Rogue Reapers possess humans; that’s how they are able to interact with humans who are not near death or in the veil. All other types of supernatural creatures can possess humans (demons by force, angels by “consent”, monsters by infecting the human), so it is consistent to me that Rogue Reapers can possess humans as well.
3) As a result of possessing humans, Rogue Reapers are vulnerable to things that regular reapers are not vulnerable to. This would be consistent with angels and demons that possess humans. Demons can be caught in a devils trap, Angels trapped in a ring of holy fire. So I find it consistent that a Rogue Reaper could be killed with an angel sword; an angel sword can kill just about anything so it being able to kill a Rogue Reaper makes sense to me.
4) Rogue Reapers and Death; don’t have an explanation as to why Death allows this. Maybe he doesn’t care enough (personally, I think he’s busy visiting all of the restaurants featured in Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives), or heaven and hell are in such disarray, he can’t be bothered.[/list][/list]
OK, I’m going to take a crack at the Rogue Reaper controversy – there’s a brief overview of appearances by Reapers up thru 8.19, followed by my theories/thoughts. All criticisms/corrections/thoughts welcome.
[i]1.12 Faith – a reaper is harnessed – the reaper is able to transfer a life force (Dean’s damaged heart is fixed, but another healthy young male dies of a heart attack). The reaper then kills Sue-Ann Le Grange when Sam smashes the necklace, then kills her. I would argue that this is in direct conflict with future canon (transferring a life force – reapers collect souls, they aren’t supposed to decide who lives/dies)
2.01 In My Time of Dying – Tessa appears to Dean in the veil and tries to convince him to move on; we also find out that reapers can alter human perception to make themselves appear any way they want. She is subsequently possessed by Azazel to hold up his deal with John to save Dean.
4.15 Death Takes a Holiday – Tessa is kidnapped and trapped in a reaper trap by Alastair in an attempt to kill two reapers (using Death’s scythe) to break one of the 66 seals.
5.10 Abandon All Hope – A boatload of reapers show up in Carthage Missouri; Lucifer summons Death.
6.11 Appointment in Samarra – Dean “dies” so he can summon Tessa to contact Death about getting Sam’s soul out of Lucifer’s cage.
7.10 Death’s Door – Bobby evades his reaper to get a message to Sam and Dean. Bobby manages to temporarily trap his reaper with a spell.
8.19 Taxi Driver – this upset many canonistas. We are introduced to Rogue Reapers; they appear in corporeal form and, for a price, will smuggle people and souls in and out of heaven, hell, etc., for a price. Ajay the rogue reaper takes Sam to purgatory and tells him how to find hell as purgatory is “hell adjacent”. Crowley catches wind of this and kills Ajay with a angel sword. This is another perceived lapse in canon, killing a reaper with an angel sword.[/i]
I did have problems with this episode, particularly the ease with how Sam was portrayed to have navigated thru Purgatory and Hell. It was portrayed as just a little bit more difficult than a beer run 🙂 However, the introduction of Rogue Reapers didn’t bother me too much.
[b]Here are my theories/thoughts —–[/b]
1) Reaper lore has been underwritten on the show; we just don’t know as much about them as we do angels, demons, and many monsters. Adding to canon is different than changing canon. That being said, S8 and S9 have introduced us to new types of angels (Rit Zein) and demons (Knights of Hell – Abaddon), so why not a new type of reaper?
2) I submit that Rogue Reapers possess humans; that’s how they are able to interact with humans who are not near death or in the veil. All other types of supernatural creatures can possess humans (demons by force, angels by “consent”, monsters by infecting the human), so it is consistent to me that Rogue Reapers can possess humans as well.
3) As a result of possessing humans, Rogue Reapers are vulnerable to things that regular reapers are not vulnerable to. This would be consistent with angels and demons that possess humans. Demons can be caught in a devils trap, Angels trapped in a ring of holy fire. So I find it consistent that a Rogue Reaper could be killed with an angel sword; an angel sword can kill just about anything so it being able to kill a Rogue Reaper makes sense to me.
4) Rogue Reapers and Death; don’t have an explanation as to why Death allows this. Maybe he doesn’t care enough (personally, I think he’s busy visiting all of the restaurants featured in Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives), or heaven and hell are in such disarray, he can’t be bothered.[/list][/list]
Regarding the visibility of the rogue reaper . . . has it ever been said that reapers cannot inhabit a human host like demons and angels? My understanding is that they are the similar “species” so it makes sense that they can take over a human host and control them if needed making them visible to the humans not dying. Maybe the fact that these reapers are using human vessels to carry out unsanctioned activity is one of the reasons they are considered rogue by other reapers. It also explains the reaper who took over the woman who had sex with Cas in this season. She was definitely in a very physical form.
Regarding the visibility of the rogue reaper . . . has it ever been said that reapers cannot inhabit a human host like demons and angels? My understanding is that they are the similar “species” so it makes sense that they can take over a human host and control them if needed making them visible to the humans not dying. Maybe the fact that these reapers are using human vessels to carry out unsanctioned activity is one of the reasons they are considered rogue by other reapers. It also explains the reaper who took over the woman who had sex with Cas in this season. She was definitely in a very physical form.
[quote name=”bjxmas”]
My only slight quibble with your comment is about Dean using girls just for sex. He is the king of the one night stands but only because he finds comfort in the physical pleasures and because he knows he’s not allowed more. I’ve alway theorized that the sexual revolution was a good thing for Dean because he isn’t ‘using’ women, instead he is seeking out liberated women who KNOW it is only a one night thing. I can’t see Dean ever ‘using’ a woman who doesn’t understand the score.
B.J.[/quote]
I would never mean to suggest that Dean would maliciously hurt someone. I love Dean! 🙂 Maybe my use of the word “Using” was too harsh. But he is with them for one reason, then they part ways. I guess I just meant that he doesn’t want or ask or expect anything else.
Your fanfic sounds awesome. Can I have a link?
[quote]
My only slight quibble with your comment is about Dean using girls just for sex. He is the king of the one night stands but only because he finds comfort in the physical pleasures and because he knows he’s not allowed more. I’ve alway theorized that the sexual revolution was a good thing for Dean because he isn’t ‘using’ women, instead he is seeking out liberated women who KNOW it is only a one night thing. I can’t see Dean ever ‘using’ a woman who doesn’t understand the score.
B.J.[/quote]
I would never mean to suggest that Dean would maliciously hurt someone. I love Dean! 🙂 Maybe my use of the word “Using” was too harsh. But he is with them for one reason, then they part ways. I guess I just meant that he doesn’t want or ask or expect anything else.
Your fanfic sounds awesome. Can I have a link?
[quote name=”jarielynn”]
I would never mean to suggest that Dean would maliciously hurt someone. I love Dean! 🙂 Maybe my use of the word “Using” was too harsh. But he is with them for one reason, then they part ways. I guess I just meant that he doesn’t want or ask or expect anything else.
Your fanfic sounds awesome. Can I have a link?[/quote]
No worries, we Dean gals love our guy, even if he does have a few less than stellar traits (which many [i]do[/i] view as using women), [i]we[/i] know the underlying reasons and the true humanity of the guy. Dean cares! One of my lines in a story is one of his one night stands saying that she knows he’ll be gone in the morning but that she also knows if she ever needs help, one phone call and he’ll be there, cuz that’s the kind of guy he is!
All my stories are posted at fanfiction. Here’s the link to my home page. https://www.fanfiction.net/u/967851/bjxmas
The story I was referring to is Orders, just don’t judge me on the rough condition of my first ever effort! lol Hopefully I’ve improved writing-wise, but I think the gist of the story still holds and that makes me proud, that I think I saw the real Dean back in S1 that Jensen was portraying and nothing the show has shown us since has ever negated what I knew about him then. Instead they’ve managed to build on the promise of who he was back then and further define him as someone worthy of admiration and love!
That truly is the beauty of Supernatural, that they give us amazing characters and stories and that they [i]don’t[/i] fully explain everything. We can fill in the blanks and justify their actions or the [i]seeming[/i] plotholes like we’re doing here!
B.J.
[quote]
I would never mean to suggest that Dean would maliciously hurt someone. I love Dean! 🙂 Maybe my use of the word “Using” was too harsh. But he is with them for one reason, then they part ways. I guess I just meant that he doesn’t want or ask or expect anything else.
Your fanfic sounds awesome. Can I have a link?[/quote]
No worries, we Dean gals love our guy, even if he does have a few less than stellar traits (which many [i]do[/i] view as using women), [i]we[/i] know the underlying reasons and the true humanity of the guy. Dean cares! One of my lines in a story is one of his one night stands saying that she knows he’ll be gone in the morning but that she also knows if she ever needs help, one phone call and he’ll be there, cuz that’s the kind of guy he is!
All my stories are posted at fanfiction. Here’s the link to my home page. https://www.fanfiction.net/u/967851/bjxmas
The story I was referring to is Orders, just don’t judge me on the rough condition of my first ever effort! lol Hopefully I’ve improved writing-wise, but I think the gist of the story still holds and that makes me proud, that I think I saw the real Dean back in S1 that Jensen was portraying and nothing the show has shown us since has ever negated what I knew about him then. Instead they’ve managed to build on the promise of who he was back then and further define him as someone worthy of admiration and love!
That truly is the beauty of Supernatural, that they give us amazing characters and stories and that they [i]don’t[/i] fully explain everything. We can fill in the blanks and justify their actions or the [i]seeming[/i] plotholes like we’re doing here!
B.J.
[quote name=”njspnfan”]
I did have problems with this episode, particularly the ease with how Sam was portrayed to have navigated thru Purgatory and Hell. It was portrayed as just a little bit more difficult than a beer run 🙂 However, the introduction of Rogue Reapers didn’t bother me too much.
[b]Here are my theories/thoughts —–[/b]
1) Reaper lore has been underwritten on the show; we just don’t know as much about them as we do angels, demons, and many monsters. Adding to canon is different than changing canon. That being said, S8 and S9 have introduced us to new types of angels (Rit Zein) and demons (Knights of Hell – Abaddon), so why not a new type of reaper?
2) I submit that Rogue Reapers possess humans; that’s how they are able to interact with humans who are not near death or in the veil. All other types of supernatural creatures can possess humans (demons by force, angels by “consent”, monsters by infecting the human), so it is consistent to me that Rogue Reapers can possess humans as well.
3) As a result of possessing humans, Rogue Reapers are vulnerable to things that regular reapers are not vulnerable to. This would be consistent with angels and demons that possess humans. Demons can be caught in a devils trap, Angels trapped in a ring of holy fire. So I find it consistent that a Rogue Reaper could be killed with an angel sword; an angel sword can kill just about anything so it being able to kill a Rogue Reaper makes sense to me.
4) Rogue Reapers and Death; don’t have an explanation as to why Death allows this. Maybe he doesn’t care enough (personally, I think he’s busy visitng all of the restaurants features in Diners, Drive-Ins, and Drives), or heaven and hell are in such disarray, he can’t be bothered.[/list][/list][/quote]
Great job categorizing all the reaper lore and then presenting reasonable explanations! Love it!
I think it is a major point you made about adding to the lore. Kripke has always been flexible in changing lore to make it Supenaturals own and also adjusting as they go, since they couldn’t possibly anticipate everything when they first introduce a monster!
As long as it services the story they need to tell and offers insight into the characters, I’m open to adjustments or retcons. This thread is terrific for exploring the [i]whys[/i] of the changes and learning to accept them!
B.J.
[quote]
I did have problems with this episode, particularly the ease with how Sam was portrayed to have navigated thru Purgatory and Hell. It was portrayed as just a little bit more difficult than a beer run 🙂 However, the introduction of Rogue Reapers didn’t bother me too much.
[b]Here are my theories/thoughts —–[/b]
1) Reaper lore has been underwritten on the show; we just don’t know as much about them as we do angels, demons, and many monsters. Adding to canon is different than changing canon. That being said, S8 and S9 have introduced us to new types of angels (Rit Zein) and demons (Knights of Hell – Abaddon), so why not a new type of reaper?
2) I submit that Rogue Reapers possess humans; that’s how they are able to interact with humans who are not near death or in the veil. All other types of supernatural creatures can possess humans (demons by force, angels by “consent”, monsters by infecting the human), so it is consistent to me that Rogue Reapers can possess humans as well.
3) As a result of possessing humans, Rogue Reapers are vulnerable to things that regular reapers are not vulnerable to. This would be consistent with angels and demons that possess humans. Demons can be caught in a devils trap, Angels trapped in a ring of holy fire. So I find it consistent that a Rogue Reaper could be killed with an angel sword; an angel sword can kill just about anything so it being able to kill a Rogue Reaper makes sense to me.
4) Rogue Reapers and Death; don’t have an explanation as to why Death allows this. Maybe he doesn’t care enough (personally, I think he’s busy visitng all of the restaurants features in Diners, Drive-Ins, and Drives), or heaven and hell are in such disarray, he can’t be bothered.[/list][/list][/quote]
Great job categorizing all the reaper lore and then presenting reasonable explanations! Love it!
I think it is a major point you made about adding to the lore. Kripke has always been flexible in changing lore to make it Supenaturals own and also adjusting as they go, since they couldn’t possibly anticipate everything when they first introduce a monster!
As long as it services the story they need to tell and offers insight into the characters, I’m open to adjustments or retcons. This thread is terrific for exploring the [i]whys[/i] of the changes and learning to accept them!
B.J.
[quote name=”bjxmas”]
That truly is the beauty of Supernatural, that they give us amazing characters and stories and that they [i]don’t[/i] fully explain everything. We can fill in the blanks and justify their actions or the [i]seeming[/i] plotholes like we’re doing here!
B.J.[/quote]
Couldn’t have said it better myself! 🙂
[quote]
That truly is the beauty of Supernatural, that they give us amazing characters and stories and that they [i]don’t[/i] fully explain everything. We can fill in the blanks and justify their actions or the [i]seeming[/i] plotholes like we’re doing here!
B.J.[/quote]
Couldn’t have said it better myself! 🙂
I tip my hat to you njspnfan. Your explanation makes very sound sense to me. I am not easily swayed, but you did it.. When you first said they possessed humans, I was started to make a list in my head how this was not possible, but somehow that list turned into reasons why it is possible…well done!
I tip my hat to you njspnfan. Your explanation makes very sound sense to me. I am not easily swayed, but you did it.. When you first said they possessed humans, I was started to make a list in my head how this was not possible, but somehow that list turned into reasons why it is possible…well done!
ROFL: I disappear for a few days, and discussion takes off!
On the Reaper thing: there’s a meta in the queue awaiting publication where I lay out all my problems with and speculations on Reapers and invite people to submit Canon-Ball Award-worthy solutions, so we’ll see more of what you guys have started here. I wrote my piece not realizing the topic was already being addressed here! And since I finished it before I saw this, I’m not going to undo it now; wait for it, and we can pick up the chat in its detailed context!
And[b] jarielynn[/b] and [b]bjxmas[/b], love your thoughts on Dean from [i]Bad Boys[/i] and how his first broken heart shaped his later choice to go for one-night stands!
ROFL: I disappear for a few days, and discussion takes off!
On the Reaper thing: there’s a meta in the queue awaiting publication where I lay out all my problems with and speculations on Reapers and invite people to submit Canon-Ball Award-worthy solutions, so we’ll see more of what you guys have started here. I wrote my piece not realizing the topic was already being addressed here! And since I finished it before I saw this, I’m not going to undo it now; wait for it, and we can pick up the chat in its detailed context!
And[b] jarielynn[/b] and [b]bjxmas[/b], love your thoughts on Dean from [i]Bad Boys[/i] and how his first broken heart shaped his later choice to go for one-night stands!
@ #18 quoting njspnfan “I submit that Rogue Reapers possess humans; that’s how they are able to interact with humans who are not near death or in the veil.”
I love it. Killing 2 birds with 1 stone: rogue reapers possessing people & being seen by healthy people
It’s great to see so many comments trying to be part of the solution instead of just rehashing the problem. I feel like Castiel eating a burger: “These make me very happy” 🙂
@ #18 quoting njspnfan “I submit that Rogue Reapers possess humans; that’s how they are able to interact with humans who are not near death or in the veil.”
I love it. Killing 2 birds with 1 stone: rogue reapers possessing people & being seen by healthy people
It’s great to see so many comments trying to be part of the solution instead of just rehashing the problem. I feel like Castiel eating a burger: “These make me very happy” 🙂
OOH, I can’t wait to read your article about the reapers Bardicvoice. njspnfan, gave some pretty good arguments, but I’d love to hear more–especially why all the sudden reapers seem to be rogue and Death is allowing it. Although, I’m still hoping he shows up to kick there asses–I do love me some Death ; ).
OOH, I can’t wait to read your article about the reapers Bardicvoice. njspnfan, gave some pretty good arguments, but I’d love to hear more–especially why all the sudden reapers seem to be rogue and Death is allowing it. Although, I’m still hoping he shows up to kick there asses–I do love me some Death ; ).
Bardicvoice – this is such a great idea! And all you posters are “frickin” and/or “freakin” brilliant! What wonderful ideas. I’m buying every one. This is just AWESOME!
😆
Bardicvoice – this is such a great idea! And all you posters are “frickin” and/or “freakin” brilliant! What wonderful ideas. I’m buying every one. This is just AWESOME!
😆
Amateurs.
Nah, j/k.
In the [url=http://www.cracked.com/article_20793_6-fan-ideas-so-good-they-were-adopted-by-creators_p2.html]spirit of this list[/url] (and #3 since I’m a fan of madgoblin’s work) here’s my points on the most common questions I’ve seen. (note, I’ve just been skimming the comments, apologies if I repeat something someone already said)
Rogue Reapers – There’s ONE answer that can satisfy but for the sake of canon, TPTB need to put this in the show: Namely, that a lot of reapers’ abilities are gifts from Death himself. To abandon Death’s employ, one gives up many of the benefits of it. One such would be the inability to die to anything but Death’s Scythe. Another would be many powers of interaction, to the point that perhaps they have to inhabit someone to interact, if they’re invisible, they’re also intangible. Also, while angels & ghosts can only inhabit the living, and demons can use living or dead bodies, reapers are allowed only to use to corpses for possession (or at least, when they possess the person becomes dead because – you know – reaper). (seriously though I wish they’d just drop the whole “rogue reaper” idea and let it die a quiet death in the annals of forgotten canon lore)
Purgatory – The door between it and hell is actually a recent development. After Castiel opened the place twice, it was emptied and refilled, and the forces of Naomi stormed it to get Castiel out, the borders of purgatory have weakened. Because he spent so much effort in trying to get there, Crowley caused the separation between purgatory & hell to be especially weak, leading to a “passage” opening up that is really a crack or tear between the two realms.
Bobby in hell – Actually a game of thrones-esque maneuver by which Naomi & her allies barred him from heaven, forcing him to go to hell so Sam or Dean might have a later soul to rescue. They just let Crowley think he scared reapers into sending Bobby there to avoid tipping their hand. Or Crowley just lied about letting Bobby out of the deal (that works even better).
Amateurs.
Nah, j/k.
In the spirit of this list ([url]http://www.cracked.com/article_20793_6-fan-ideas-so-good-they-were-adopted-by-creators_p2.html[/url]) (and #3 since I’m a fan of madgoblin’s work) here’s my points on the most common questions I’ve seen. (note, I’ve just been skimming the comments, apologies if I repeat something someone already said)
Rogue Reapers – There’s ONE answer that can satisfy but for the sake of canon, TPTB need to put this in the show: Namely, that a lot of reapers’ abilities are gifts from Death himself. To abandon Death’s employ, one gives up many of the benefits of it. One such would be the inability to die to anything but Death’s Scythe. Another would be many powers of interaction, to the point that perhaps they have to inhabit someone to interact, if they’re invisible, they’re also intangible. Also, while angels & ghosts can only inhabit the living, and demons can use living or dead bodies, reapers are allowed only to use to corpses for possession (or at least, when they possess the person becomes dead because – you know – reaper). (seriously though I wish they’d just drop the whole “rogue reaper” idea and let it die a quiet death in the annals of forgotten canon lore)
Purgatory – The door between it and hell is actually a recent development. After Castiel opened the place twice, it was emptied and refilled, and the forces of Naomi stormed it to get Castiel out, the borders of purgatory have weakened. Because he spent so much effort in trying to get there, Crowley caused the separation between purgatory & hell to be especially weak, leading to a “passage” opening up that is really a crack or tear between the two realms.
Bobby in hell – Actually a game of thrones-esque maneuver by which Naomi & her allies barred him from heaven, forcing him to go to hell so Sam or Dean might have a later soul to rescue. They just let Crowley think he scared reapers into sending Bobby there to avoid tipping their hand. Or Crowley just lied about letting Bobby out of the deal (that works even better).
It is really hard to get to worked up over such a minor character as rogue reapers but if I had to try and make them fit I would have to say that Death (who thinks that our planet is insignificant) probably doesn’t care very much about what reapers are doing (other than collecting Sam Winchester. I think that is why Death himself came to collect him, to make sure he ended up in the right place). Castiel opened a doorway to purgatory by doing a spell. Who knows what else happened when he did that. And since reapers escort souls to where ever they need to go, heaven ,hell or purgatory I imagine they know many ways in and around these places. There was a human portal out of purgatory why not a passage way into hell. Since this is a fantasy/scyfy show I guess characters can be fleshed out to how ever the writers imagine them. We as viewers can also fill in the blanks which is what is fun about this thread. I have my own thoughts and some mentioned here are far more interesting than mine.
It is really hard to get to worked up over such a minor character as rogue reapers but if I had to try and make them fit I would have to say that Death (who thinks that our planet is insignificant) probably doesn’t care very much about what reapers are doing (other than collecting Sam Winchester. I think that is why Death himself came to collect him, to make sure he ended up in the right place). Castiel opened a doorway to purgatory by doing a spell. Who knows what else happened when he did that. And since reapers escort souls to where ever they need to go, heaven ,hell or purgatory I imagine they know many ways in and around these places. There was a human portal out of purgatory why not a passage way into hell. Since this is a fantasy/scyfy show I guess characters can be fleshed out to how ever the writers imagine them. We as viewers can also fill in the blanks which is what is fun about this thread. I have my own thoughts and some mentioned here are far more interesting than mine.
[quote name=”Nate Winchester”]
Rogue Reapers – There’s ONE answer that can satisfy but for the sake of canon, TPTB need to put this in the show: Namely, that a lot of reapers’ abilities are gifts from Death himself. To abandon Death’s employ, one gives up many of the benefits of it. One such would be the inability to die to anything but Death’s Scythe. Another would be many powers of interaction, to the point that perhaps they have to inhabit someone to interact, if they’re invisible, they’re also intangible. Also, while angels & ghosts can only inhabit the living, and demons can use living or dead bodies, reapers are allowed only to use to corpses for possession (or at least, when they possess the person becomes dead because – you know – reaper). (seriously though I wish they’d just drop the whole “rogue reaper” idea and let it die a quiet death in the annals of forgotten canon lore)
[/quote]
Nate – the inconsistency with this is that, according to Tessa in Appointment in Samarra, she told Dean (while wearing Death’s ring)
[i]”You touch them, they die, I reap them. Are we clear?”[/i]
So it’s Death’s touch that kills, not the reaper’s touch. I think the only episode that directly contradicts that (not positive though, after all I am only an amateur 😆 ) is 1.12 Faith, where the reaper was portrayed more as The Grim Reaper. So these discrepancies go back to the beginning of the Kripke era.
[quote]
Rogue Reapers – There’s ONE answer that can satisfy but for the sake of canon, TPTB need to put this in the show: Namely, that a lot of reapers’ abilities are gifts from Death himself. To abandon Death’s employ, one gives up many of the benefits of it. One such would be the inability to die to anything but Death’s Scythe. Another would be many powers of interaction, to the point that perhaps they have to inhabit someone to interact, if they’re invisible, they’re also intangible. Also, while angels & ghosts can only inhabit the living, and demons can use living or dead bodies, reapers are allowed only to use to corpses for possession (or at least, when they possess the person becomes dead because – you know – reaper). (seriously though I wish they’d just drop the whole “rogue reaper” idea and let it die a quiet death in the annals of forgotten canon lore)
[/quote]
Nate – the inconsistency with this is that, according to Tessa in Appointment in Samarra, she told Dean (while wearing Death’s ring)
[i]”You touch them, they die, I reap them. Are we clear?”[/i]
So it’s Death’s touch that kills, not the reaper’s touch. I think the only episode that directly contradicts that (not positive though, after all I am only an amateur 😆 ) is 1.12 Faith, where the reaper was portrayed more as The Grim Reaper. So these discrepancies go back to the beginning of the Kripke era.
[quote]So it’s Death’s touch that kills, not the reaper’s touch. I think the only episode that directly contradicts that (not positive though, after all I am only an amateur 😆 ) is 1.12 Faith, where the reaper was portrayed more as The Grim Reaper.[/quote]
Nope. Episode 4.15: Reapers themselves (first a random dude, then Tessa) are incapacitated and people stop dying.
Also in 2.01 when Tessa bothers Dean’s body in her “less sexy” form, his body starts flat-lining.
[quote]So it’s Death’s touch that kills, not the reaper’s touch. I think the only episode that directly contradicts that (not positive though, after all I am only an amateur 😆 ) is 1.12 Faith, where the reaper was portrayed more as The Grim Reaper.[/quote]
Nope. Episode 4.15: Reapers themselves (first a random dude, then Tessa) are incapacitated and people stop dying.
Also in 2.01 when Tessa bothers Dean’s body in her “less sexy” form, his body starts flat-lining.
I have a question for the bright folks lurking about. There’s always been one discrepancy that bugged me about demons. According to Bob Singer, the only demon that has teleport capabilities similar to angels is Crowley because he’s the king of hell. I know red-eyed demons can be summoned but, as far as I can remember, not even white-eyed (Lilith) or yellow-eyed (Azazel) demons can teleport.
There have been a couple of cases where this has been contradicted in the show. In 6.10 Caged Heat, Meg clearly had to teleport out of there to escape after Crowley was pretend-killed by Castiel by burning fake Crowley bones. She didn’t smoke out (in fact she couldn’t smoke out because when she tried earlier she wasn’t able to because of something Crowley did to the building) – she just vanished.
Then again in 5.17 99 Problems, Sam and Dean were being pursued by demons while driving the Implala; since the demons weren’t in a car, they must have been in smoke form and would have needed someone to possess, unless they are able to teleport.
Was there ever an explanation about this as this clearly goes against canon? Or was Bob Singer incorrect?
I have a question for the bright folks lurking about. There’s always been one discrepancy that bugged me about demons. According to Bob Singer, the only demon that has teleport capabilities similar to angels is Crowley because he’s the king of hell. I know red-eyed demons can be summoned but, as far as I can remember, not even white-eyed (Lilith) or yellow-eyed (Azazel) demons can teleport.
There have been a couple of cases where this has been contradicted in the show. In 6.10 Caged Heat, Meg clearly had to teleport out of there to escape after Crowley was pretend-killed by Castiel by burning fake Crowley bones. She didn’t smoke out (in fact she couldn’t smoke out because when she tried earlier she wasn’t able to because of something Crowley did to the building) – she just vanished.
Then again in 5.17 99 Problems, Sam and Dean were being pursued by demons while driving the Implala; since the demons weren’t in a car, they must have been in smoke form and would have needed someone to possess, unless they are able to teleport.
Was there ever an explanation about this as this clearly goes against canon? Or was Bob Singer incorrect?
[quote name=”Nate Winchester”][quote]So it’s Death’s touch that kills, not the reaper’s touch. I think the only episode that directly contradicts that (not positive though, after all I am only an amateur 😆 ) is 1.12 Faith, where the reaper was portrayed more as The Grim Reaper.[/quote]
Nope. Episode 4.15: Reapers themselves (first a random dude, then Tessa) are incapacitated and people stop dying.
Also in 2.01 when Tessa bothers Dean’s body in her “less sexy” form, his body starts flat-lining.[/quote]
I thought people didn’t start dying again until she was freed from the reaper trap – this has been contradicted on a couple of occasions, even before the introduction of the dreaded rogue reapers.
[quote][quote]So it’s Death’s touch that kills, not the reaper’s touch. I think the only episode that directly contradicts that (not positive though, after all I am only an amateur 😆 ) is 1.12 Faith, where the reaper was portrayed more as The Grim Reaper.[/quote]
Nope. Episode 4.15: Reapers themselves (first a random dude, then Tessa) are incapacitated and people stop dying.
Also in 2.01 when Tessa bothers Dean’s body in her “less sexy” form, his body starts flat-lining.[/quote]
I thought people didn’t start dying again until she was freed from the reaper trap – this has been contradicted on a couple of occasions, even before the introduction of the dreaded rogue reapers.
[quote]I have a question for the bright folks lurking about. There’s always been one discrepancy that bugged me about demons. According to Bob Singer, the only demon that has teleport capabilities similar to angels is Crowley because he’s the king of hell. I know red-eyed demons can be summoned but, as far as I can remember, not even white-eyed (Lilith) or yellow-eyed (Azazel) demons can teleport.
There have been a couple of cases where this has been contradicted in the show. In 6.10 Caged Heat, Meg clearly had to teleport out of there to escape after Crowley was pretend-killed by Castiel by burning fake Crowley bones. She didn’t smoke out (in fact she couldn’t smoke out because when she tried earlier she wasn’t able to because of something Crowley did to the building) – she just vanished.
Then again in 5.17 99 Problems, Sam and Dean were being pursued by demons while driving the Implala; since the demons weren’t in a car, they must have been in smoke form and would have needed someone to possess, unless they are able to teleport.
Was there ever an explanation about this as this clearly goes against canon? Or was Bob Singer incorrect?[/quote]
Bob Singer is probably incorrect since we saw Crowley teleport a few times in season 5 when Lucifer was decidedly OUT of the cage and if there’s one thing I think we can all agree on, if Lucifer is out, Crowley isn’t the King of Hell at that moment.
[quote]I thought people didn’t start dying again until she was freed from the reaper trap – this has been contradicted on a couple of occasions, even before the introduction of the dreaded rogue reapers.[/quote]
??? Huh? Yeah, that’s what I mean by “incapacitated”. In the reaper traps. First it was one, which is why everyone in the town lived through EVERYTHING (like being shot) then Tessa was also placed in the trap (because 2 reapers needed to die to break the seal). Once the trap was broken, she was able to continue her job and return things to the natural order. (obviously the other reaper couldn’t since he was no more)
[quote]I have a question for the bright folks lurking about. There’s always been one discrepancy that bugged me about demons. According to Bob Singer, the only demon that has teleport capabilities similar to angels is Crowley because he’s the king of hell. I know red-eyed demons can be summoned but, as far as I can remember, not even white-eyed (Lilith) or yellow-eyed (Azazel) demons can teleport.
There have been a couple of cases where this has been contradicted in the show. In 6.10 Caged Heat, Meg clearly had to teleport out of there to escape after Crowley was pretend-killed by Castiel by burning fake Crowley bones. She didn’t smoke out (in fact she couldn’t smoke out because when she tried earlier she wasn’t able to because of something Crowley did to the building) – she just vanished.
Then again in 5.17 99 Problems, Sam and Dean were being pursued by demons while driving the Implala; since the demons weren’t in a car, they must have been in smoke form and would have needed someone to possess, unless they are able to teleport.
Was there ever an explanation about this as this clearly goes against canon? Or was Bob Singer incorrect?[/quote]
Bob Singer is probably incorrect since we saw Crowley teleport a few times in season 5 when Lucifer was decidedly OUT of the cage and if there’s one thing I think we can all agree on, if Lucifer is out, Crowley isn’t the King of Hell at that moment.
[quote]I thought people didn’t start dying again until she was freed from the reaper trap – this has been contradicted on a couple of occasions, even before the introduction of the dreaded rogue reapers.[/quote]
??? Huh? Yeah, that’s what I mean by “incapacitated”. In the reaper traps. First it was one, which is why everyone in the town lived through EVERYTHING (like being shot) then Tessa was also placed in the trap (because 2 reapers needed to die to break the seal). Once the trap was broken, she was able to continue her job and return things to the natural order. (obviously the other reaper couldn’t since he was no more)
Ok so Death touch’s them and then the reaper reaps them. So if Death touched the soon to be dead in 4.15 but the reapers were gone then no one died. In AIS Dean was Death and had to touch the people before Tessa could reap them but they were dead before she reaped them. There has always seemed to be inconsistency in reaper lore. But it still seems a lot of bother for a character that has only been in 6 or 7 episodes out almost 200. How do you kill a reaper? How was Death tethered by Lucifer? How could a reaper be possessed by a demon? None of those questions were really answered so a dreaded rogue reaper just doesn’t seem outrageous to me.
Ok so Death touch’s them and then the reaper reaps them. So if Death touched the soon to be dead in 4.15 but the reapers were gone then no one died. In AIS Dean was Death and had to touch the people before Tessa could reap them but they were dead before she reaped them. There has always seemed to be inconsistency in reaper lore. But it still seems a lot of bother for a character that has only been in 6 or 7 episodes out almost 200. How do you kill a reaper? How was Death tethered by Lucifer? How could a reaper be possessed by a demon? None of those questions were really answered so a dreaded rogue reaper just doesn’t seem outrageous to me.
[quote name=”Nate Winchester”][quote]I have a question for the bright folks lurking about. There’s always been one discrepancy that bugged me about demons. According to Bob Singer, the only demon that has teleport capabilities similar to angels is Crowley because he’s the king of hell. I know red-eyed demons can be summoned but, as far as I can remember, not even white-eyed (Lilith) or yellow-eyed (Azazel) demons can teleport.
There have been a couple of cases where this has been contradicted in the show. In 6.10 Caged Heat, Meg clearly had to teleport out of there to escape after Crowley was pretend-killed by Castiel by burning fake Crowley bones. She didn’t smoke out (in fact she couldn’t smoke out because when she tried earlier she wasn’t able to because of something Crowley did to the building) – she just vanished.
Then again in 5.17 99 Problems, Sam and Dean were being pursued by demons while driving the Implala; since the demons weren’t in a car, they must have been in smoke form and would have needed someone to possess, unless they are able to teleport.
Was there ever an explanation about this as this clearly goes against canon? Or was Bob Singer incorrect?[/quote]
Bob Singer is probably incorrect since we saw Crowley teleport a few times in season 5 when Lucifer was decidedly OUT of the cage and if there’s one thing I think we can all agree on, if Lucifer is out, Crowley isn’t the King of Hell at that moment.
[quote]I thought people didn’t start dying again until she was freed from the reaper trap – this has been contradicted on a couple of occasions, even before the introduction of the dreaded rogue reapers.[/quote]
??? Huh? Yeah, that’s what I mean by “incapacitated”. In the reaper traps. First it was one, which is why everyone in the town lived through EVERYTHING (like being shot) then Tessa was also placed in the trap (because 2 reapers needed to die to break the seal). Once the trap was broken, she was able to continue her job and return things to the natural order. (obviously the other reaper couldn’t since he was no more)[/quote]
Sorry… typed that in a hurry on my way out the door. My point is Tessa’s statement clearly contradicts that. Guess it comes down to the delineation between death/dying and the process of reaping.
[quote][quote]I have a question for the bright folks lurking about. There’s always been one discrepancy that bugged me about demons. According to Bob Singer, the only demon that has teleport capabilities similar to angels is Crowley because he’s the king of hell. I know red-eyed demons can be summoned but, as far as I can remember, not even white-eyed (Lilith) or yellow-eyed (Azazel) demons can teleport.
There have been a couple of cases where this has been contradicted in the show. In 6.10 Caged Heat, Meg clearly had to teleport out of there to escape after Crowley was pretend-killed by Castiel by burning fake Crowley bones. She didn’t smoke out (in fact she couldn’t smoke out because when she tried earlier she wasn’t able to because of something Crowley did to the building) – she just vanished.
Then again in 5.17 99 Problems, Sam and Dean were being pursued by demons while driving the Implala; since the demons weren’t in a car, they must have been in smoke form and would have needed someone to possess, unless they are able to teleport.
Was there ever an explanation about this as this clearly goes against canon? Or was Bob Singer incorrect?[/quote]
Bob Singer is probably incorrect since we saw Crowley teleport a few times in season 5 when Lucifer was decidedly OUT of the cage and if there’s one thing I think we can all agree on, if Lucifer is out, Crowley isn’t the King of Hell at that moment.
[quote]I thought people didn’t start dying again until she was freed from the reaper trap – this has been contradicted on a couple of occasions, even before the introduction of the dreaded rogue reapers.[/quote]
??? Huh? Yeah, that’s what I mean by “incapacitated”. In the reaper traps. First it was one, which is why everyone in the town lived through EVERYTHING (like being shot) then Tessa was also placed in the trap (because 2 reapers needed to die to break the seal). Once the trap was broken, she was able to continue her job and return things to the natural order. (obviously the other reaper couldn’t since he was no more)[/quote]
Sorry… typed that in a hurry on my way out the door. My point is Tessa’s statement clearly contradicts that. Guess it comes down to the delineation between death/dying and the process of reaping.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]Ok so Death touch’s them and then the reaper reaps them. So if Death touched the soon to be dead in 4.15 but the reapers were gone then no one died. In AIS Dean was Death and had to touch the people before Tessa could reap them but they were dead before she reaped them. There has always seemed to be inconsistency in reaper lore. But it still seems a lot of bother for a character that has only been in 6 or 7 episodes out almost 200. How do you kill a reaper? How was Death tethered by Lucifer? How could a reaper be possessed by a demon? None of those questions were really answered so a dreaded rogue reaper just doesn’t seem outrageous to me.[/quote]
Agreed….
[quote]Ok so Death touch’s them and then the reaper reaps them. So if Death touched the soon to be dead in 4.15 but the reapers were gone then no one died. In AIS Dean was Death and had to touch the people before Tessa could reap them but they were dead before she reaped them. There has always seemed to be inconsistency in reaper lore. But it still seems a lot of bother for a character that has only been in 6 or 7 episodes out almost 200. How do you kill a reaper? How was Death tethered by Lucifer? How could a reaper be possessed by a demon? None of those questions were really answered so a dreaded rogue reaper just doesn’t seem outrageous to me.[/quote]
Agreed….
[quote name=”njspnfan”]Rogue Reapers…
Nate – the inconsistency with this is that, according to Tessa in Appointment in Samarra, she told Dean (while wearing Death’s ring)
[i]”You touch them, they die, I reap them. Are we clear?”[/i]
So it’s Death’s touch that kills, not the reaper’s touch..[/quote]
Logic flaw there. Tessa did not say she was incapable of killing anyone, and didn’t the evidence suggest that Tessa likely killed Pamela?
I could write paragraphs but let’s go with this: There’s no reason right now to think Death and Tessa are “different species”. Death can kill (Chicago) and reap, I think (wasn’t he hoping to reap Sam?)… Tessa can probably kill (Pamela) and reap (Dean and ghost kid). But Death’s older… He’s a general to Tessa’s foot soldier. He’s white collar and she’s blue collar. The point of Samarra was to have Dean kill people as a part of keeping the Natural Order. He was given the power to kill with a touch. If the power to reap came as part of the package, Dean was not made aware of it. If pressed for a possible reason, I bet Death didn’t want Dean to get too familiar with the “modes of transportation” used by reapers and/or the paths reapers follow between realms. Tessa could have killed but the whole point was to make Dean do that. But afterwards, Tessa did the reaping.
Analogy: An experienced firefighter named Tessa says to a newbie (Dean): You’re going to steady the bottom of the ladder [i](kill with a touch)[/i] and I’m going to climb it [i](reap the deceased)[/i]. Does that mean Tessa is incapable of steadying a ladder, herself? Uh… I don’t think so. It just means the newbie hasn’t had enough experience to be the first up the ladder.
[quote]My point is Tessa’s statement clearly contradicts that. Guess it comes down to the delineation between death/dying and the process of reaping.[/quote]
[quote]Ok so Death touch’s them and then the reaper reaps them. So if Death touched the soon to be dead in 4.15 but the reapers were gone then no one died. In AIS Dean was Death and had to touch the people before Tessa could reap them but they were dead before she reaped them. There has always seemed to be inconsistency in reaper lore.[/quote]
Only if you assume that Tessa’s words are a clue to her relation with her boss and not those of a supervisor dealing with a trainee on the job. (which, having done a variety of jobs in my life, she sounded a lot like) Besides, the evidence against:
1) We actually SAW Tessa’s touch start killing Dean in 2.01.
2) If we assume that SPN’s world is largely the same as ours (which we’re supposed to), then 150,000 people die on the planet every day. That’s 104+ people every minute or 6,250 people every hour. Meaning the time Dean was wasting hanging around a town in episode 6.11, there were hundreds – if not thousands – of people not dying all over the world. Or the 5-10 minutes they restrained Death in 7.01, 500+ people all over the world weren’t dying. Given both of these happened within a year, the world would probably be taking a lot more notice of all these miracles (on top of a freak eclipse). Or that time Death spent in Chicago, how did Pestilence kill anyone? Or Famine for that matter since Death was shackled at the time yet we didn’t see him in the episode. (and shackling does appear to make Death visible since the muggle couple freaked out on his appearance in 7.01)
3) I’d bring up episode 6.17 but… ugh that was a horrible one.
[quote]How do you kill a reaper?[/quote]
Previously, only by the means of Death himself could you (which made sense). Now they’re trying to say angel blades can do it all the time which just… opens up huge plot holes in past episodes. (hence my “leaving his employ loses your benefits theory)
[quote]How was Death tethered by Lucifer?[/quote]
Trickier since the show set up Death as the cosmic duality to God but not too problematic since many cultures have legends that to know something’s “true name” is to give one power over it – even the gods could be utilized by mortals using this method. (it certainly would explain why God is so tetchy about His name)
[quote]How could a reaper be possessed by a demon?[/quote]
We have a probable explanation in episode 6.20. Human souls are incredibly powerful, and their power can be tapped into by certain beings, particularly angels & demons. By using 500k souls, Castiel was able to do something he previously couldn’t: beat Raphael. Thus we get a clue as to the “red tape” Azazel spoke of in 2.22. Demons normally can’t possess reapers. However, when you contract with one, you are essentially turning over your soul to them, granting them substantial power, power enough even to force a reaper to do what it wouldn’t. (which provides fascinating possibilities about the timespan given, perhaps the power of the years taken from your life is used to do what you ask of the demons, thus why you only have 10 years left)
[quote]None of those questions were really answered so a dreaded rogue reaper just doesn’t seem outrageous to me.[/quote]
Not quite true. Your first question was definitely answered in 4.15, and the last one we can tease out a reasonable conclusion from S6. The middle question is the only one with no definite answer but one teased out from outside knowledge and a few bit pieced together in the show.
[quote]My point is Tessa’s statement clearly contradicts that. Guess it comes down to the delineation between death/dying and the process of reaping.[/quote]
[quote]Ok so Death touch’s them and then the reaper reaps them. So if Death touched the soon to be dead in 4.15 but the reapers were gone then no one died. In AIS Dean was Death and had to touch the people before Tessa could reap them but they were dead before she reaped them. There has always seemed to be inconsistency in reaper lore.[/quote]
Only if you assume that Tessa’s words are a clue to her relation with her boss and not those of a supervisor dealing with a trainee on the job. (which, having done a variety of jobs in my life, she sounded a lot like) Besides, the evidence against:
1) We actually SAW Tessa’s touch start killing Dean in 2.01.
2) If we assume that SPN’s world is largely the same as ours (which we’re supposed to), then 150,000 people die on the planet every day. That’s 104+ people every minute or 6,250 people every hour. Meaning the time Dean was wasting hanging around a town in episode 6.11, there were hundreds – if not thousands – of people not dying all over the world. Or the 5-10 minutes they restrained Death in 7.01, 500+ people all over the world weren’t dying. Given both of these happened within a year, the world would probably be taking a lot more notice of all these miracles (on top of a freak eclipse). Or that time Death spent in Chicago, how did Pestilence kill anyone? Or Famine for that matter since Death was shackled at the time yet we didn’t see him in the episode. (and shackling does appear to make Death visible since the muggle couple freaked out on his appearance in 7.01)
3) I’d bring up episode 6.17 but… ugh that was a horrible one.
[quote]How do you kill a reaper?[/quote]
Previously, only by the means of Death himself could you (which made sense). Now they’re trying to say angel blades can do it all the time which just… opens up huge plot holes in past episodes. (hence my “leaving his employ loses your benefits theory)
[quote]How was Death tethered by Lucifer?[/quote]
Trickier since the show set up Death as the cosmic duality to God but not too problematic since many cultures have legends that to know something’s “true name” is to give one power over it – even the gods could be utilized by mortals using this method. (it certainly would explain why God is so tetchy about His name)
[quote]How could a reaper be possessed by a demon?[/quote]
We have a probable explanation in episode 6.20. Human souls are incredibly powerful, and their power can be tapped into by certain beings, particularly angels & demons. By using 500k souls, Castiel was able to do something he previously couldn’t: beat Raphael. Thus we get a clue as to the “red tape” Azazel spoke of in 2.22. Demons normally can’t possess reapers. However, when you contract with one, you are essentially turning over your soul to them, granting them substantial power, power enough even to force a reaper to do what it wouldn’t. (which provides fascinating possibilities about the timespan given, perhaps the power of the years taken from your life is used to do what you ask of the demons, thus why you only have 10 years left)
[quote]None of those questions were really answered so a dreaded rogue reaper just doesn’t seem outrageous to me.[/quote]
Not quite true. Your first question was definitely answered in 4.15, and the last one we can tease out a reasonable conclusion from S6. The middle question is the only one with no definite answer but one teased out from outside knowledge and a few bit pieced together in the show.
@racestaffer – Hah! I see we both posted the same theory minutes apart. (you obviously beat me since I’m so long winded 😉 )
@racestaffer – Hah! I see we both posted the same theory minutes apart. (you obviously beat me since I’m so long winded 😉 )
When did Death kill a reaper? I don’t recall that episode. Since reapers have been tethered, killed and possessed I don’t think Death cares about his reapers all that much. Lucifer tethering Death within the SPN universe is not explained very well. Azazel possessed Tessa but how? A deal with Death? Why? When was it ever explained that an angel blade could never kill a reaper? Again I don’t recall that episode. Angel blades weren’t really available until season 8. Possibly because Castiel laid waste to the host of heaven. Assumptions can be made by whatever personal interpretations of dialogue or creative license you choose. My argument is that in the fantasy/scyfy universe the writers can create or enhance their characters. You can personally buy it or not. Some did some didn’t. But I think the point of this thread is to make it work..
When did Death kill a reaper? I don’t recall that episode. Since reapers have been tethered, killed and possessed I don’t think Death cares about his reapers all that much. Lucifer tethering Death within the SPN universe is not explained very well. Azazel possessed Tessa but how? A deal with Death? Why? When was it ever explained that an angel blade could never kill a reaper? Again I don’t recall that episode. Angel blades weren’t really available until season 8. Possibly because Castiel laid waste to the host of heaven. Assumptions can be made by whatever personal interpretations of dialogue or creative license you choose. My argument is that in the fantasy/scyfy universe the writers can create or enhance their characters. You can personally buy it or not. Some did some didn’t. But I think the point of this thread is to make it work..
[quote]When did Death kill a reaper? I don’t recall that episode. [/quote]
Argh, as I said once already, it wasn’t Death, it was his SCYTHE, his tool. Revealed in 4.15, CONFIRMED to be his in 5.21.
[quote]Since reapers have been tethered, killed and possessed I don’t think Death cares about his reapers all that much.[/quote]
1) You’re right, which is why I discount the “Death is present at every death” theory since that would mean he’s constantly working with each reaper.
2) I also forgot to mention a few comments back, but the latest SPN novel, Carved in Flesh has a bit of reaper in it and flat out contradicts this “Death does it” theory and supports the “doesn’t care much about his employees” theory too. (but it is a novel so its canon is half-weight)
[quote]Lucifer tethering Death within the SPN universe is not explained very well.[/quote]
Not well but it is explained a tiny bit more in 7.01 where it appeared a 2nd time.
[quote]Azazel possessed Tessa but how?[/quote]
See my previous theorizing.
[quote]A deal with Death? Why?[/quote]
No, a deal with John and utilizing the power of souls.
[quote]When was it ever explained that an angel blade could never kill a reaper? [/quote]
Episode 4.15. And… well every time angels did NOT kill reapers when they had every reason to or it would be very advantageous to them.
[quote]Again I don’t recall that episode. Angel blades weren’t really available until season 8.
[/quote]
No, they were revealed in episode 4.16 and Dean was revealed to have one and used it to kill Zach in episode 5.18.
And let’s just say the remainder I’ll set aside since it might set me off on an angry rant.
[quote]When did Death kill a reaper? I don’t recall that episode. [/quote]
Argh, as I said once already, it wasn’t Death, it was his SCYTHE, his tool. Revealed in 4.15, CONFIRMED to be his in 5.21.
[quote]Since reapers have been tethered, killed and possessed I don’t think Death cares about his reapers all that much.[/quote]
1) You’re right, which is why I discount the “Death is present at every death” theory since that would mean he’s constantly working with each reaper.
2) I also forgot to mention a few comments back, but the latest SPN novel, Carved in Flesh has a bit of reaper in it and flat out contradicts this “Death does it” theory and supports the “doesn’t care much about his employees” theory too. (but it is a novel so its canon is half-weight)
[quote]Lucifer tethering Death within the SPN universe is not explained very well.[/quote]
Not well but it is explained a tiny bit more in 7.01 where it appeared a 2nd time.
[quote]Azazel possessed Tessa but how?[/quote]
See my previous theorizing.
[quote]A deal with Death? Why?[/quote]
No, a deal with John and utilizing the power of souls.
[quote]When was it ever explained that an angel blade could never kill a reaper? [/quote]
Episode 4.15. And… well every time angels did NOT kill reapers when they had every reason to or it would be very advantageous to them.
[quote]Again I don’t recall that episode. Angel blades weren’t really available until season 8.
[/quote]
No, they were revealed in episode 4.16 and Dean was revealed to have one and used it to kill Zach in episode 5.18.
And let’s just say the remainder I’ll set aside since it might set me off on an angry rant.
Again I think we are in dead horse territory. You make valid points and discount mine. That is fine but I think the point of this thread is to make it work. I could defend each of my arguments but what would be the point. You have clearly stated that the rogue reapers are a hot button issue for you so let’s just let this go in the spirit of Alice’s new policy. 🙂
Again I think we are in dead horse territory. You make valid points and discount mine. That is fine but I think the point of this thread is to make it work. I could defend each of my arguments but what would be the point. You have clearly stated that the rogue reapers are a hot button issue for you so let’s just let this go in the spirit of Alice’s new policy. 🙂
Man, I go to work and you guys get all busy in here without me? Oh well, for what it’s worth…
On the 4.15 discussion–I understood that the folks weren’t dying because there was no one to carry their souls to the light since the reaper was captured. So, I submit that these folks were touched by Death, but remained animated because their souls were still in their body. The only reason that the kid wasn’t in his body is because the reaper had already removed it, but got captured before he could carry it to the other side. So, I would say that the walking dead were dead. And, it can line up with 2.01 also–Dean was dead, but his soul had not been carried to the other side. Why Dean started flat lining when she touched him? I submit that it was more of Tessa’s warping of Dean’s reality like she did with the choking victim. Basically, I say that Death kills, reapers schlep the souls. That’s not to say that he is present at every death scene and has to physically touch them, but that he makes it happen somehow. Sorry, I don’t think I am making a lot of sense here.
How do you kill a reaper?–previous to Taxi Driver, the only thing known to kill a reaper was Death’s scythe. Now, I was very swayed by njspnfan’s argument that the angel sword is very powerful and just because we had previously not seen it kill a reaper does not mean it can’t. However, I do wish they would stop using the angel sword to kill everything because I think it’s a bit lazy, but that doesn’t mean it actually goes against cannon, Nate, you bring up a good point that it could create plot holes in previous episodes, but right now I think I am going to let sleeping dogs lie on this one.
As far as only Crowely being able to teleport–Well, I think Mr. Singer may have put his foot in his mouth here. Yellow Eyes blips in and out in both seasons one and two, Ruby seems to suddenly pop up here and there (well, throughout season three anyway, until she got her own muscle car that is). Meg just shows up in the middle of the street in Abandon All Hope in season five and then seems to teleport a lot throughout both seasons six and seven. AND every single crossroads demon seems to suddenly pop up as well. So, it does seem like it’s not something only the King of Hell can do.
How was Death tethered by Lucifer?–Simple, a spell. Death says as much when he tells Dean that Lucifer bound him. I would assume it was a similar spell to the one the boys and Bobby use to bind Death in order to get him to kill Godstiel in 7.01
Whether rogue reapers are really all that outrageous?–I guess in-and-of themselves they are no more ludicrous than many other things we have been presented with. But, here’s the thing: it’s not just some niggly little minor monster that they got one minor thing wrong on (in which I would have just accepted an “oops, my bad”), but reapers have a deep connection to a lot of the major mythology on this show, so it’s rather glaring when EVERYTHING they presented seems to go against cannon without explanation. It’s not just that they are rogue OR that they could suddenly be seen by anyone and everyone OR that they seem to suddenly be able to possess humans OR that they can be killed by the angel sword OR that they suddenly seem to give a crap about the angel/demon pissing matches–it’s all these things together that make the whole notion of them hard to swallow. So, while yes I would agree that the spirit of this thread is to try and make something work, I haven’t yet been fully convinced that they do work. However, most of my issues have been addressed here, so I think I will just accept that they exist and move on. But Nate, I’m with you…I wish they would just die already and never to be heard from again.
Man, I go to work and you guys get all busy in here without me? Oh well, for what it’s worth…
On the 4.15 discussion–I understood that the folks weren’t dying because there was no one to carry their souls to the light since the reaper was captured. So, I submit that these folks were touched by Death, but remained animated because their souls were still in their body. The only reason that the kid wasn’t in his body is because the reaper had already removed it, but got captured before he could carry it to the other side. So, I would say that the walking dead were dead. And, it can line up with 2.01 also–Dean was dead, but his soul had not been carried to the other side. Why Dean started flat lining when she touched him? I submit that it was more of Tessa’s warping of Dean’s reality like she did with the choking victim. Basically, I say that Death kills, reapers schlep the souls. That’s not to say that he is present at every death scene and has to physically touch them, but that he makes it happen somehow. Sorry, I don’t think I am making a lot of sense here.
How do you kill a reaper?–previous to Taxi Driver, the only thing known to kill a reaper was Death’s scythe. Now, I was very swayed by njspnfan’s argument that the angel sword is very powerful and just because we had previously not seen it kill a reaper does not mean it can’t. However, I do wish they would stop using the angel sword to kill everything because I think it’s a bit lazy, but that doesn’t mean it actually goes against cannon, Nate, you bring up a good point that it could create plot holes in previous episodes, but right now I think I am going to let sleeping dogs lie on this one.
As far as only Crowely being able to teleport–Well, I think Mr. Singer may have put his foot in his mouth here. Yellow Eyes blips in and out in both seasons one and two, Ruby seems to suddenly pop up here and there (well, throughout season three anyway, until she got her own muscle car that is). Meg just shows up in the middle of the street in Abandon All Hope in season five and then seems to teleport a lot throughout both seasons six and seven. AND every single crossroads demon seems to suddenly pop up as well. So, it does seem like it’s not something only the King of Hell can do.
How was Death tethered by Lucifer?–Simple, a spell. Death says as much when he tells Dean that Lucifer bound him. I would assume it was a similar spell to the one the boys and Bobby use to bind Death in order to get him to kill Godstiel in 7.01
Whether rogue reapers are really all that outrageous?–I guess in-and-of themselves they are no more ludicrous than many other things we have been presented with. But, here’s the thing: it’s not just some niggly little minor monster that they got one minor thing wrong on (in which I would have just accepted an “oops, my bad”), but reapers have a deep connection to a lot of the major mythology on this show, so it’s rather glaring when EVERYTHING they presented seems to go against cannon without explanation. It’s not just that they are rogue OR that they could suddenly be seen by anyone and everyone OR that they seem to suddenly be able to possess humans OR that they can be killed by the angel sword OR that they suddenly seem to give a crap about the angel/demon pissing matches–it’s all these things together that make the whole notion of them hard to swallow. So, while yes I would agree that the spirit of this thread is to try and make something work, I haven’t yet been fully convinced that they do work. However, most of my issues have been addressed here, so I think I will just accept that they exist and move on. But Nate, I’m with you…I wish they would just die already and never to be heard from again.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]Again I think we are in dead horse territory. You make valid points and discount mine. That is fine but I think the point of this thread is to make it work. I could defend each of my arguments but what would be the point. You have clearly stated that the rogue reapers are a hot button issue for you so let’s just let this go in the spirit of Alice’s new policy. :-)[/quote]
I agree! I think Alice made the point that the real writers have deadlines and an entire season they are looking at. I’m always greatful they put so much effort into crafting an entire season AND the entire scope of the Winchesters’ universe. We have more time to pick apart their creation and I love the idea of this thread, coming up with theories and reasons why things might work. I love the spirit of that!
To that end, I want to commend everyone for their theories and thinky thoughts! Some notions might work for some and not others, but sharing our love and just thinking about show is pretty special.
So thanks!
Now does someone have a new topic, some new retcon that they’d like us to explain away?
B.J.
[quote]Again I think we are in dead horse territory. You make valid points and discount mine. That is fine but I think the point of this thread is to make it work. I could defend each of my arguments but what would be the point. You have clearly stated that the rogue reapers are a hot button issue for you so let’s just let this go in the spirit of Alice’s new policy. :-)[/quote]
I agree! I think Alice made the point that the real writers have deadlines and an entire season they are looking at. I’m always greatful they put so much effort into crafting an entire season AND the entire scope of the Winchesters’ universe. We have more time to pick apart their creation and I love the idea of this thread, coming up with theories and reasons why things might work. I love the spirit of that!
To that end, I want to commend everyone for their theories and thinky thoughts! Some notions might work for some and not others, but sharing our love and just thinking about show is pretty special.
So thanks!
Now does someone have a new topic, some new retcon that they’d like us to explain away?
B.J.
Not a new topic I’m afraid. In fact, I didn’t expect to participate here because I was under the assumption the challenge was to think of an instance of canon trashing that bothers you and propose an explanation, yourself. I can come up with no instance of canon trashing that seemed serious enough to linger in my mind {shrug}. What will be included here that may not be too much of a rehash is an idea about Tessa’s so-called “possession” by YED. That’s the last point though, for those who want to skip the rest. I was typing up these reaper thoughts before the request for a new topic was made… so I’m just gonna post the whole thing:
[i][b]One need only embrace two principles to explain most if not all the reaper issues:[/b][/i]
1) Ockham’s Razor
2) The SPN “oldie” of: Every culture has its yada-yada lore.
Reapers kill people and take them to their afterlife. Gods of some cultures have those duties. Angels are also known to have such duties. SPN has already given us an example that an angel can also be a god (Gabriel/Loki).
1) & 2) …In SPN, there is no meaningful difference between a reaper and an angel. If so:
i) Of course angel blades kill reapers… cuz angel blades kill angels
ii) Of course reapers can posses humans… cuz angels can possess humans
iii) Of course there are rogue reapers… we already know there are rogue angels (Lucifer, Azazel, Anna…)
iv) Of course reapers care about angel issues… cuz angels care about angel issues
v) Of course we never noticed reapers caring about angel issues in the early years… there wasn’t a lot of angelic activity on Earth until Metatron kicked the angels out of Heaven. Dean didn’t even believe in angels until S4.
Additional observation: True, Tessa also didn’t care about angel issues during that “in-between” period of numerically few but comparatively potent angel (& demon) activity (Cas, and a few archangels). But isn’t Tessa also kinda special? We saw, what… maybe 50 reapers in AllHope (or was that “the Pizzaria episode?)… making, oh, about 57-ish total assuming no repeats. So we’ve had 4 dressed as modern, non-corporate humans (Tessa, cabbie, April & her cohort), 1 dressed as a human from the past (Bobby’s), and weren’t the other ~52 dressed like the reaper from Faith? 52 “standard issue” corporate reapers and 5 that are to some extent “cut of a different cloth”. And since the “standard issue” reaper appeared in S1 (first of ~52) and Tessa appeared in S2 (first of ~5), I dunno why fans are just getting upset about trashed reaper canon this past year or two. Apparently SPN has been trashing reaper canon since episode 1 of Season 2 (LMAO). Or… ya know… not.
vi) One thing that I cannot explain as simply is Tessa seemingly being possessed by YED. I do have a possible explanation that would invoke things we know and/or have witnessed from Tessa, Gabriel and Lucifer then assume that since Azazel in religion was an angel comrade of Lucifer’s, YED could have similar powers. It also draws from the concept of “angel radio.” Ya know how when you’re driving you can sometimes wind up in a zone where you’re sorta hearing two different radio stations? You’re probably getting farther from one and closer to the other and they’re broadcasting on roughly the same frequency. First you’re listening to Rocky Mountain Way but halfway through you start to get Back in Black fading in and out too. Well, non-corporeal Tessa was essentially “broadcasting” to Dean on a particular “frequency” and then non-corporeal YED started broadcasting on the same frequency. The result was “a mashup” …Tessa’s body plus the eyes and voice of YED.
Great comments, [b]racestaffer[/b]! I agree, most of the reaper conflict others see is something I simply accept as the lore…or as a further definition of reapers. I don’t feel that we ever know everything, we know what we’ve seen in the past and what they’ve told us. In many ways, Kripke and gang have always invented their own view on monsters.
On Tessa being possessed, it never bothered me. Again, I realized it wasn’t a common place thing because she was shocked and said, “You can’t do that” and yet, YED was powerful and as he stated, he knew someone. I kinda like that they don’t spell it out for us. Maybe it’s that I don’t need the technical explanations, I just need to know what happend and get my ‘feels’. I like how it all played out, John’s deal, Dean being saved, so I accept what happened and move on.
But I sure do love hearing everyone’s theories and explanations. Discussion is always good!
B.J.
Great comments, [b]racestaffer[/b]! I agree, most of the reaper conflict others see is something I simply accept as the lore…or as a further definition of reapers. I don’t feel that we ever know everything, we know what we’ve seen in the past and what they’ve told us. In many ways, Kripke and gang have always invented their own view on monsters.
On Tessa being possessed, it never bothered me. Again, I realized it wasn’t a common place thing because she was shocked and said, “You can’t do that” and yet, YED was powerful and as he stated, he knew someone. I kinda like that they don’t spell it out for us. Maybe it’s that I don’t need the technical explanations, I just need to know what happend and get my ‘feels’. I like how it all played out, John’s deal, Dean being saved, so I accept what happened and move on.
But I sure do love hearing everyone’s theories and explanations. Discussion is always good!
B.J.
Okay – here is my contribution to the reaper invisible question. In Tessa’s first episode, In My Time of Dying, she told Dean it was her sandbox – she can make people see whatever she wants. So, if a reaper wants living people to see it, it can be done. Easy explanation.
I also agree with all the folks who explained away the Grand Canyon thing. My brother and I grew up in the same house and have totally different memories – including a vacation to the Catskills that I remember and he swears never happened – and he is older. He is wrong, by the way 🙂
Okay – here is my contribution to the reaper invisible question. In Tessa’s first episode, In My Time of Dying, she told Dean it was her sandbox – she can make people see whatever she wants. So, if a reaper wants living people to see it, it can be done. Easy explanation.
I also agree with all the folks who explained away the Grand Canyon thing. My brother and I grew up in the same house and have totally different memories – including a vacation to the Catskills that I remember and he swears never happened – and he is older. He is wrong, by the way 🙂
[quote name=”Grace232″]Okay – here is my contribution to the reaper invisible question. In Tessa’s first episode, In My Time of Dying, she told Dean it was her sandbox – she can make people see whatever she wants. So, if a reaper wants living people to see it, it can be done. Easy explanation. [/quote]
This is my favorite explanation so far! And I’d take a step further to say it’s Kripke’s sandbox and he can make us see whatever he wants! 😆
B.J.
[quote]Okay – here is my contribution to the reaper invisible question. In Tessa’s first episode, In My Time of Dying, she told Dean it was her sandbox – she can make people see whatever she wants. So, if a reaper wants living people to see it, it can be done. Easy explanation. [/quote]
This is my favorite explanation so far! And I’d take a step further to say it’s Kripke’s sandbox and he can make us see whatever he wants! 😆
B.J.
[quote]vi) One thing that I cannot explain as simply is Tessa seemingly being possessed by YED.[/quote]
Repeating myself:
We have a probable explanation in episode 6.20. Human souls are incredibly powerful, and their power can be tapped into by certain beings, particularly angels & demons. By using 500k souls, Castiel was able to do something he previously couldn’t: beat Raphael. Thus we get a clue as to the “red tape” Azazel spoke of in 2.22. Demons normally can’t possess reapers. However, when you contract with one, you are essentially turning over your soul to them, granting them substantial power, power enough even to force a reaper to do what it wouldn’t. (which provides fascinating possibilities about the timespan given, perhaps the power of the years taken from your life is used to do what you ask of the demons, thus why you only have 10 years left)
[quote]So, if a reaper wants living people to see it, it can be done. Easy explanation. [/quote]
Everyone’s problem with reaper visibility isn’t necessarily the how, it’s the WHY. Say… the FBI asked you to follow a dozen extremely dangerous criminals to their hideout, and you had the power to turn invisible… wouldn’t you? Or would you want to stay visible to give those guys a sporting chance to murder (or worse) you?
At some point you have to feel sorry for the reaper that was following the boys because it starts seeming like he was the special needs one of the death the community. (“No, Dean! Don’t kill him. He’s too dumb to know any better!”)
[quote]This is my favorite explanation so far! And I’d take a step further to say it’s Kripke’s sandbox and he can make us see whatever he wants! [/quote]
Not after season 5…
lol
[quote]vi) One thing that I cannot explain as simply is Tessa seemingly being possessed by YED.[/quote]
Repeating myself:
We have a probable explanation in episode 6.20. Human souls are incredibly powerful, and their power can be tapped into by certain beings, particularly angels & demons. By using 500k souls, Castiel was able to do something he previously couldn’t: beat Raphael. Thus we get a clue as to the “red tape” Azazel spoke of in 2.22. Demons normally can’t possess reapers. However, when you contract with one, you are essentially turning over your soul to them, granting them substantial power, power enough even to force a reaper to do what it wouldn’t. (which provides fascinating possibilities about the timespan given, perhaps the power of the years taken from your life is used to do what you ask of the demons, thus why you only have 10 years left)
[quote]So, if a reaper wants living people to see it, it can be done. Easy explanation. [/quote]
Everyone’s problem with reaper visibility isn’t necessarily the how, it’s the WHY. Say… the FBI asked you to follow a dozen extremely dangerous criminals to their hideout, and you had the power to turn invisible… wouldn’t you? Or would you want to stay visible to give those guys a sporting chance to murder (or worse) you?
At some point you have to feel sorry for the reaper that was following the boys because it starts seeming like he was the special needs one of the death the community. (“No, Dean! Don’t kill him. He’s too dumb to know any better!”)
[quote]This is my favorite explanation so far! And I’d take a step further to say it’s Kripke’s sandbox and he can make us see whatever he wants! [/quote]
Not after season 5…
lol
[quote name=”Grace232″]Okay – here is my contribution to the reaper invisible question. In Tessa’s first episode, In My Time of Dying, she told Dean it was her sandbox – she can make people see whatever she wants. So, if a reaper wants living people to see it, it can be done. Easy explanation. [quote]
Well, maybe not so easy. Why was Ajay visible to Sam and Dean in the first place when he didn’t even know they were looking for him. Plus, the rogue guy that was trailing Sam and Dean in I’m No Angel must have been really stupid to allow himself to be seen by Sam and Dean–he would probably be still alive if he hadn’t. Plus, April could have avoided being killed if she just made herself unseen. So, your assertion works only if the reapers want to be seen, but for all the instances of the rogue reapers, I submit they did not want to be seen, so….However, I do accept the previously submitted idea that reapers can possess humans though (and I think njspnfan should get a double award for the work with this one). I would also go further to say that is one of the things that make a reaper rogue–it’s considered taboo so regular reapers just don’t do it. It’s also the same reason I came up with to explain why Cas was able to steal someone else’s grace when he could have done it in 9.01 or for that matter why Anna didn’t try to steal another angel’s grace when she couldn’t find her own–it’s equivalent to cannibalism and considered so distasteful that one just doesn’t do it.
[quote] Reapers kill people and take them to their afterlife. Gods of some cultures have those duties. Angels are also known to have such duties. SPN has already given us an example that an angel can also be a god (Gabriel/Loki). [quote]
I don’t think that Gabriel was actually a god, he was always an arch angel just pretending to be a god as part of his witness protection program. I personally do not see any evidence that reapers are angels or angel equivalent and I don’t think that reapers actually kill, only carry the souls. To me reapers are their own beast, so I can’t make the same leaps you did here, but I respect the effort made. ; )
I think the issue I have with the rogue reapers is more of a personal one…they took something I used to think was fairly cool and made it really lame, IMO. But, as I said, I have accepted that they exist, even if I wish they didn’t.
As far as a new topic: I used to be annoyed about the bunker supposedly being warded against all things Supernatural, but Cas could stroll around freely, the wicked witch not only got in but could use her own powers when inside and Gadreel apparently didn’t have any problems getting in or out. I finally decided that warding doesn’t mean anything if you have the key and it doesn’t mean that once you get inside you will be powerful. It’s like the more traditional vampire lore that they need permission to enter someone’s house…I decided that if you have the key it automatically gives you permission. Does somebody out there have a better explanation?
[quote]Okay – here is my contribution to the reaper invisible question. In Tessa’s first episode, In My Time of Dying, she told Dean it was her sandbox – she can make people see whatever she wants. So, if a reaper wants living people to see it, it can be done. Easy explanation. [quote]
Well, maybe not so easy. Why was Ajay visible to Sam and Dean in the first place when he didn’t even know they were looking for him. Plus, the rogue guy that was trailing Sam and Dean in I’m No Angel must have been really stupid to allow himself to be seen by Sam and Dean–he would probably be still alive if he hadn’t. Plus, April could have avoided being killed if she just made herself unseen. So, your assertion works only if the reapers want to be seen, but for all the instances of the rogue reapers, I submit they did not want to be seen, so….However, I do accept the previously submitted idea that reapers can possess humans though (and I think njspnfan should get a double award for the work with this one). I would also go further to say that is one of the things that make a reaper rogue–it’s considered taboo so regular reapers just don’t do it. It’s also the same reason I came up with to explain why Cas was able to steal someone else’s grace when he could have done it in 9.01 or for that matter why Anna didn’t try to steal another angel’s grace when she couldn’t find her own–it’s equivalent to cannibalism and considered so distasteful that one just doesn’t do it.
[quote] Reapers kill people and take them to their afterlife. Gods of some cultures have those duties. Angels are also known to have such duties. SPN has already given us an example that an angel can also be a god (Gabriel/Loki). [quote]
I don’t think that Gabriel was actually a god, he was always an arch angel just pretending to be a god as part of his witness protection program. I personally do not see any evidence that reapers are angels or angel equivalent and I don’t think that reapers actually kill, only carry the souls. To me reapers are their own beast, so I can’t make the same leaps you did here, but I respect the effort made. ; )
I think the issue I have with the rogue reapers is more of a personal one…they took something I used to think was fairly cool and made it really lame, IMO. But, as I said, I have accepted that they exist, even if I wish they didn’t.
As far as a new topic: I used to be annoyed about the bunker supposedly being warded against all things Supernatural, but Cas could stroll around freely, the wicked witch not only got in but could use her own powers when inside and Gadreel apparently didn’t have any problems getting in or out. I finally decided that warding doesn’t mean anything if you have the key and it doesn’t mean that once you get inside you will be powerful. It’s like the more traditional vampire lore that they need permission to enter someone’s house…I decided that if you have the key it automatically gives you permission. Does somebody out there have a better explanation?
Oh, man Nate, you were far more concise, entertaining and apparently quicker than me.
And sorry, for some reason my quote tags didn’t work right–I should probably get a real account so I can edit my posts. I’m so lazy sometimes.
Oh, man Nate, you were far more concise, entertaining and apparently quicker than me.
And sorry, for some reason my quote tags didn’t work right–I should probably get a real account so I can edit my posts. I’m so lazy sometimes.
[quote name=”ME”][quote name=”Grace232″]
As far as a new topic: I used to be annoyed about the bunker supposedly being warded against all things Supernatural, but Cas could stroll around freely, the wicked witch not only got in but could use her own powers when inside and Gadreel apparently didn’t have any problems getting in or out. I finally decided that warding doesn’t mean anything if you have the key and it doesn’t mean that once you get inside you will be powerful. It’s like the more traditional vampire lore that they need permission to enter someone’s house…I decided that if you have the key it automatically gives you permission. Does somebody out there have a better explanation?[/quote]
In 8.12 As Time Goes By, Larry said –
“Because it is the safest place on earth, warded against any evil ever created. It is impervious to any entry, except the key.”
So, it’s impervious to any evil ever created, not all Supernatural creatures.
[quote][quote]
As far as a new topic: I used to be annoyed about the bunker supposedly being warded against all things Supernatural, but Cas could stroll around freely, the wicked witch not only got in but could use her own powers when inside and Gadreel apparently didn’t have any problems getting in or out. I finally decided that warding doesn’t mean anything if you have the key and it doesn’t mean that once you get inside you will be powerful. It’s like the more traditional vampire lore that they need permission to enter someone’s house…I decided that if you have the key it automatically gives you permission. Does somebody out there have a better explanation?[/quote]
In 8.12 As Time Goes By, Larry said –
“Because it is the safest place on earth, warded against any evil ever created. It is impervious to any entry, except the key.”
So, it’s impervious to any evil ever created, not all Supernatural creatures.
[quote name=”Nate Winchester”][quote]
Everyone’s problem with reaper visibility isn’t necessarily the how, it’s the WHY. Say… the FBI asked you to follow a dozen extremely dangerous criminals to their hideout, and you had the power to turn invisible… wouldn’t you? Or would you want to stay visible to give those guys a sporting chance to murder (or worse) you?
At some point you have to feel sorry for the reaper that was following the boys because it starts seeming like he was the special needs one of the death the community. (“No, Dean! Don’t kill him. He’s too dumb to know any better!”)
[/quote]
A reaper possessing a human solves this particular dilemma
[quote][quote]
Everyone’s problem with reaper visibility isn’t necessarily the how, it’s the WHY. Say… the FBI asked you to follow a dozen extremely dangerous criminals to their hideout, and you had the power to turn invisible… wouldn’t you? Or would you want to stay visible to give those guys a sporting chance to murder (or worse) you?
At some point you have to feel sorry for the reaper that was following the boys because it starts seeming like he was the special needs one of the death the community. (“No, Dean! Don’t kill him. He’s too dumb to know any better!”)
[/quote]
A reaper possessing a human solves this particular dilemma
[quote name=”njspnfan”] So, it’s impervious to any evil ever created, not all Supernatural creatures.[/quote]
Okay, but aren’t supernatural creatures in this universe considered evil? I guessing that you’re saying that angels aren’t evil–which I think in this universe they are supposed to be–but what about the wicked witch? Doesn’t the name alone imply evil? ; )
[quote] So, it’s impervious to any evil ever created, not all Supernatural creatures.[/quote]
Okay, but aren’t supernatural creatures in this universe considered evil? I guessing that you’re saying that angels aren’t evil–which I think in this universe they are supposed to be–but what about the wicked witch? Doesn’t the name alone imply evil? ; )
[quote name=”ME”][quote name=”njspnfan”] So, it’s impervious to any evil ever created, not all Supernatural creatures.[/quote]
Okay, but aren’t supernatural creatures in this universe considered evil? I guessing that you’re saying that angels aren’t evil–which I think in this universe they are supposed to be–but what about the wicked witch? Doesn’t the name alone imply evil? ; )[/quote]
True but, when angels were introduced in S4, they hadn’t, and weren’t permitted to, walk among man for over 2,000 years; then the whole apocalypse thing started. So, if that’s true, the Men of Letters would not have had any interaction with angels, other than what they read. So… they didn’t know much about angels.
We know angels are dicks, can’t say that they’re all evil, though (just the vast majority).
Good point on the wicked witch, though. I had thought the same thing when the episode aired. Maybe because she was from an alternate dimension and Dorothy brought her there through a portal?
[quote][quote] So, it’s impervious to any evil ever created, not all Supernatural creatures.[/quote]
Okay, but aren’t supernatural creatures in this universe considered evil? I guessing that you’re saying that angels aren’t evil–which I think in this universe they are supposed to be–but what about the wicked witch? Doesn’t the name alone imply evil? ; )[/quote]
True but, when angels were introduced in S4, they hadn’t, and weren’t permitted to, walk among man for over 2,000 years; then the whole apocalypse thing started. So, if that’s true, the Men of Letters would not have had any interaction with angels, other than what they read. So… they didn’t know much about angels.
We know angels are dicks, can’t say that they’re all evil, though (just the vast majority).
Good point on the wicked witch, though. I had thought the same thing when the episode aired. Maybe because she was from an alternate dimension and Dorothy brought her there through a portal?
Nate: I’m probably equally verbose by nature. I’d started that post entirely differently, and who knows how long the aborted version might have ended up.
bjxmas: Thanks!
ME: I greatly appreciate the balance of explained and UNexplained on the show, but it makes offering satisfying explanations to others that much more challenging because you sometimes don’t even have a solid foundation as a starting place. I prefer a foundation of “every culture has its…” but certainly a notion akin to “convergent evolution” is also reasonable. I could formulate explanations from that PoV as well, but I’m not sure you’d be any the more convinced. The opening of Dream a Little… comes to mind, though in truth it’s been on my mind since I first read the pitch of this topic. Again, that’s the whole reason I didn’t imagine I’d be posting here. I don’t need to convince myself no serious canon-trashing occurred [i](and I’ve already tried and failed to convince others)[/i].
ME & njspnfan: Regarding the “Larry” quote and follow-up discussion. Who was Larry again? Why should I consider him a 100% accurate source of info and why should I assume he conveyed that info fully and accurately? Sorry… Doubting Thomas. But even if we presume that there is 1 SPN Universe and the showrunners believe evil exists in it… how do we know they believe evil is “created.” Maybe evil is eternal, has no starting point, therefore was never created. Alternately, maybe evil is a metamorphic process and there is no one creator or single moment of “creation” on the path to evil and thus “any evil ever created” might be considered a phrase without meaning.
[quote name=”racestaffer”]
ME & njspnfan: Regarding the “Larry” quote and follow-up discussion. Who was Larry again? Why should I consider him a 100% accurate source of info and why should I assume he conveyed that info fully and accurately? Sorry… Doubting Thomas. But even if we presume that there is 1 SPN Universe and the showrunners believe evil exists in it… how do we know they believe evil is “created.” Maybe evil is eternal, has no starting point, therefore was never created. Alternately, maybe evil is a metamorphic process and there is no one creator or single moment of “creation” on the path to evil and thus “any evil ever created” might be considered a phrase without meaning.[/quote]
Larry was the only Man of Letters to survive Abaddon’s attack in 1958; this was in As Time Goes By, when Henry time traveled to 2013. Since he was a Man of Letters, and at as far as we know the only surviving Man of Letters (till Abaddon killed him in 2013), why would he lie about such a thing?
[quote]
ME & njspnfan: Regarding the “Larry” quote and follow-up discussion. Who was Larry again? Why should I consider him a 100% accurate source of info and why should I assume he conveyed that info fully and accurately? Sorry… Doubting Thomas. But even if we presume that there is 1 SPN Universe and the showrunners believe evil exists in it… how do we know they believe evil is “created.” Maybe evil is eternal, has no starting point, therefore was never created. Alternately, maybe evil is a metamorphic process and there is no one creator or single moment of “creation” on the path to evil and thus “any evil ever created” might be considered a phrase without meaning.[/quote]
Larry was the only Man of Letters to survive Abaddon’s attack in 1958; this was in As Time Goes By, when Henry time traveled to 2013. Since he was a Man of Letters, and at as far as we know the only surviving Man of Letters (till Abaddon killed him in 2013), why would he lie about such a thing?
When did I accuse Larry of lying? {grin}
[quote name=”racestaffer”]When did I accuse Larry of lying? {grin}[/quote]
Well, you questioned whether he was a 100% accurate source of info. And, after all, we all know that the only 100% accurate source of information is Wikipedia 😀
[quote]When did I accuse Larry of lying? {grin}[/quote]
Well, you questioned whether he was a 100% accurate source of info. And, after all, we all know that the only 100% accurate source of information is Wikipedia 😀
[quote name=”njspnfan”][quote name=”ME”][quote name=”njspnfan”] So, it’s impervious to any evil ever created, not all Supernatural creatures.[/quote]
Okay, but aren’t supernatural creatures in this universe considered evil? I guessing that you’re saying that angels aren’t evil–which I think in this universe they are supposed to be–but what about the wicked witch? Doesn’t the name alone imply evil? ; )[/quote]
True but, when angels were introduced in S4, they hadn’t, and weren’t permitted to, walk among man for over 2,000 years; then the whole apocalypse thing started. So, if that’s true, the Men of Letters would not have had any interaction with angels, other than what they read. So… they didn’t know much about angels.
We know angels are dicks, can’t say that they’re all evil, though (just the vast majority).
Good point on the wicked witch, though. I had thought the same thing when the episode aired. Maybe because she was from an alternate dimension and Dorothy brought her there through a portal?[/quote]
Yes, angels were not supposed to have walked the Earth for 2000 years, but the MoL apparently knew of them because Henry used an angel feather to do his spell that sent him to 2013. I would agree that not ALL angels are necessarily evil (neither are ALL vampires, shapeshifters, demons or any monster we have seen–there is always an exception to every group) but as far as the show, they have always been portrayed as the antagonists and wrong doers. Even in S4, they were working to their own ends and cared little for humanity–which is my understanding of how the show determines what is evil.
I guess what I was trying to ask was–how does the warding know what is evil and what isn’t? I mean, they have had the King of Hell tied up in there for months now, if it is warded against evil how is it that he even got in? The whole thing just feels very subjective to me–basically it keeps out things when the plot dictates and doesn’t if it’s inconvenient.
I guess I will just stick with my theory that you have to have the key to get in, no matter what you are.
[quote][quote][quote] So, it’s impervious to any evil ever created, not all Supernatural creatures.[/quote]
Okay, but aren’t supernatural creatures in this universe considered evil? I guessing that you’re saying that angels aren’t evil–which I think in this universe they are supposed to be–but what about the wicked witch? Doesn’t the name alone imply evil? ; )[/quote]
True but, when angels were introduced in S4, they hadn’t, and weren’t permitted to, walk among man for over 2,000 years; then the whole apocalypse thing started. So, if that’s true, the Men of Letters would not have had any interaction with angels, other than what they read. So… they didn’t know much about angels.
We know angels are dicks, can’t say that they’re all evil, though (just the vast majority).
Good point on the wicked witch, though. I had thought the same thing when the episode aired. Maybe because she was from an alternate dimension and Dorothy brought her there through a portal?[/quote]
Yes, angels were not supposed to have walked the Earth for 2000 years, but the MoL apparently knew of them because Henry used an angel feather to do his spell that sent him to 2013. I would agree that not ALL angels are necessarily evil (neither are ALL vampires, shapeshifters, demons or any monster we have seen–there is always an exception to every group) but as far as the show, they have always been portrayed as the antagonists and wrong doers. Even in S4, they were working to their own ends and cared little for humanity–which is my understanding of how the show determines what is evil.
I guess what I was trying to ask was–how does the warding know what is evil and what isn’t? I mean, they have had the King of Hell tied up in there for months now, if it is warded against evil how is it that he even got in? The whole thing just feels very subjective to me–basically it keeps out things when the plot dictates and doesn’t if it’s inconvenient.
I guess I will just stick with my theory that you have to have the key to get in, no matter what you are.
Well, besides the philosophical arguments about “created” evil, there’s the one I shorthanded. Maybe Larry’s info isn’t 100% accurate. Why should we presume it is? As I alluded to when I asked who he was: I had a vague sense of which episode(s) I should know him from, but he’s more of an unknown quantity (one hopes) than Cas …or the Winchesters. Say John, for instance. Our impression was that John was a pretty good hunter. But didn’t Sam wind up captured by the vtalla (or whatever they were called) because John’s journal said they were solitary creatures, which Dean knew was not info that could be counted on. And we’re talking PapaJohn there, not Larry!
Suppose the warding doesn’t work on every evil creature. It was rumored to do so and it worked on what the MoL tested it out on, so they said… yep… good intel. But if they’d tested it on something else it’d be… eeek, bad intel! Another way the intel could be half true is if there are different translations/meanings for the word “warded”. Perhaps some wardings prevent evil from entering and some wardings prevent evil from locating you easily… you permanently fly under the radar. That doesn’t mean something can’t climb into your plane, it just makes it hard for your adversaries to find the plane. Larry believed it was “no entry” warding but it was really “radar-jamming” warding.
Ahhhhh…
PS: njspnfan
Re: Wikipedia. Ouch! {sheepish grin} Thatsmarts! Then again, are you saying if it’s a fiction it’s untrue?
PPS: And if the MoL had managed to make, or even just stumble upon a place that evil could neither find nor enter, how’d they manage to become a nearly extinct species? I mean, heck, even SPN’s Heaven is subject to large-scale “calamities” imposed by deceivers and thieves.
[quote name=”racestaffer”]Well, besides the philosophical arguments about “created” evil, there’s the one I shorthanded. Maybe Larry’s info isn’t 100% accurate. Why should we presume it is? As I alluded to when I asked who he was: I had a vague sense of which episode(s) I should know him from, but he’s more of an unknown quantity (one hopes) than Cas …or the Winchesters. Say John, for instance. Our impression was that John was a pretty good hunter. But didn’t Sam wind up captured by the vtalla (or whatever they were called) because John’s journal said they were solitary creatures, which Dean knew was not info that could be counted on. And we’re talking PapaJohn there, not Larry!
Suppose the warding doesn’t work on every evil creature. It was rumored to do so and it worked on what the MoL tested it out on, so they said… yep… good intel. But if they’d tested it on something else it’d be… eeek, bad intel! Another way the intel could be half true is if there are different translations/meanings for the word “warded”. Perhaps some wardings prevent evil from entering and some wardings prevent evil from locating you easily… you permanently fly under the radar. That doesn’t mean something can’t climb into your plane, it just makes it hard for your adversaries to find the plane. Larry believed it was “no entry” warding but it was really “radar-jamming” warding.
Ahhhhh…
PS: njspnfan
Re: Wikipedia. Ouch! {sheepish grin} Thatsmarts! Then again, are you saying if it’s a fiction it’s untrue?
PPS: And if the MoL had managed to make, or even just stumble upon a place that evil could neither find nor enter, how’d they manage to become a nearly extinct species? I mean, heck, even SPN’s Heaven is subject to large-scale “calamities” imposed by deceivers and thieves.[/quote]
racestaffer – point taken; my point was that, while I viewed Larry as a reliable source, doesn’t mean he’s always right. In addition to John’s journal and the Vetala, something else happened in As Time Goes By that supports your case – one of the MOL recited something to try to either stop or exorcise Adabbon and was shocked when it didn’t work, saying something to the effect to “that’s impossible”. I guess a more accurate statement by Larry would have been – “It’s warded against all evil known to the MOL”.
And I love the PPS – thought the same thing when they got wiped out.
[quote]Well, besides the philosophical arguments about “created” evil, there’s the one I shorthanded. Maybe Larry’s info isn’t 100% accurate. Why should we presume it is? As I alluded to when I asked who he was: I had a vague sense of which episode(s) I should know him from, but he’s more of an unknown quantity (one hopes) than Cas …or the Winchesters. Say John, for instance. Our impression was that John was a pretty good hunter. But didn’t Sam wind up captured by the vtalla (or whatever they were called) because John’s journal said they were solitary creatures, which Dean knew was not info that could be counted on. And we’re talking PapaJohn there, not Larry!
Suppose the warding doesn’t work on every evil creature. It was rumored to do so and it worked on what the MoL tested it out on, so they said… yep… good intel. But if they’d tested it on something else it’d be… eeek, bad intel! Another way the intel could be half true is if there are different translations/meanings for the word “warded”. Perhaps some wardings prevent evil from entering and some wardings prevent evil from locating you easily… you permanently fly under the radar. That doesn’t mean something can’t climb into your plane, it just makes it hard for your adversaries to find the plane. Larry believed it was “no entry” warding but it was really “radar-jamming” warding.
Ahhhhh…
PS: njspnfan
Re: Wikipedia. Ouch! {sheepish grin} Thatsmarts! Then again, are you saying if it’s a fiction it’s untrue?
PPS: And if the MoL had managed to make, or even just stumble upon a place that evil could neither find nor enter, how’d they manage to become a nearly extinct species? I mean, heck, even SPN’s Heaven is subject to large-scale “calamities” imposed by deceivers and thieves.[/quote]
racestaffer – point taken; my point was that, while I viewed Larry as a reliable source, doesn’t mean he’s always right. In addition to John’s journal and the Vetala, something else happened in As Time Goes By that supports your case – one of the MOL recited something to try to either stop or exorcise Adabbon and was shocked when it didn’t work, saying something to the effect to “that’s impossible”. I guess a more accurate statement by Larry would have been – “It’s warded against all evil known to the MOL”.
And I love the PPS – thought the same thing when they got wiped out.
quote]
I guess what I was trying to ask was–how does the warding know what is evil and what isn’t? I mean, they have had the King of Hell tied up in there for months now, if it is warded against evil how is it that he even got in? The whole thing just feels very subjective to me–basically it keeps out things when the plot dictates and doesn’t if it’s inconvenient.
quote]
Both Crowley and the Wicked witch were brought into the bunker by Men/Women of Letters. So the bunker is awarded perhaps against evil trying to get in on its’ own.
quote]
I guess what I was trying to ask was–how does the warding know what is evil and what isn’t? I mean, they have had the King of Hell tied up in there for months now, if it is warded against evil how is it that he even got in? The whole thing just feels very subjective to me–basically it keeps out things when the plot dictates and doesn’t if it’s inconvenient.
quote]
Both Crowley and the Wicked witch were brought into the bunker by Men/Women of Letters. So the bunker is awarded perhaps against evil trying to get in on its’ own.
As far as the warding on the bunker; I took it to mean that it couldn’t be found. Not that nothing could be brought into it. Nothing can get in because they have the only key; but they brought Crowley inside. Remember Charlie said she lost their signal aprox. 20 miles around the bunker-DEAD ZONE.
Well, the way I have always looked at everything on the show, is that they (Dean and Sam) keep learning new things. New monsters. How to kill said monsters, etc. Remember, in season one demons were just starting to possess people in large numbers. Dean and Sam had never even dealt with one. So if the show “changes” something; I just look at it as they are just doing it differently now.
I know I don’t do things the same way I did them 10 years ago. No one does. Sam wanted to stop hunting; and leave Dean, at 1st. Dean said he never wanted normal. Then he did; and Sam didn’t. Now neither of them do!! I love how they keep the heart of the show in it; but keep it changing and so very, VERY, entertaining. SPN love to you all!
As far as the warding on the bunker; I took it to mean that it couldn’t be found. Not that nothing could be brought into it. Nothing can get in because they have the only key; but they brought Crowley inside. Remember Charlie said she lost their signal aprox. 20 miles around the bunker-DEAD ZONE.
Well, the way I have always looked at everything on the show, is that they (Dean and Sam) keep learning new things. New monsters. How to kill said monsters, etc. Remember, in season one demons were just starting to possess people in large numbers. Dean and Sam had never even dealt with one. So if the show “changes” something; I just look at it as they are just doing it differently now.
I know I don’t do things the same way I did them 10 years ago. No one does. Sam wanted to stop hunting; and leave Dean, at 1st. Dean said he never wanted normal. Then he did; and Sam didn’t. Now neither of them do!! I love how they keep the heart of the show in it; but keep it changing and so very, VERY, entertaining. SPN love to you all!
[quote name=”TeresaPezzino”]quote]
I guess what I was trying to ask was–how does the warding know what is evil and what isn’t? I mean, they have had the King of Hell tied up in there for months now, if it is warded against evil how is it that he even got in? The whole thing just feels very subjective to me–basically it keeps out things when the plot dictates and doesn’t if it’s inconvenient.
quote]
Both Crowley and the Wicked witch were brought into the bunker by Men/Women of Letters. So the bunker is awarded perhaps against evil trying to get in on its’ own.[/quote]
There are devils traps and various sigils over the bookcases, and symbols in the frieze work around the library and doorways. I seem to remember a devils trap integrated in to the floor as well. Probably some other stuff as well but that’s what I’ve noticed so far.
Even better – found this floor plan over on superwiki –
http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=File:MenofLettersFloorplanBIG.jpg
[quote]quote]
I guess what I was trying to ask was–how does the warding know what is evil and what isn’t? I mean, they have had the King of Hell tied up in there for months now, if it is warded against evil how is it that he even got in? The whole thing just feels very subjective to me–basically it keeps out things when the plot dictates and doesn’t if it’s inconvenient.
quote]
Both Crowley and the Wicked witch were brought into the bunker by Men/Women of Letters. So the bunker is awarded perhaps against evil trying to get in on its’ own.[/quote]
There are devils traps and various sigils over the bookcases, and symbols in the frieze work around the library and doorways. I seem to remember a devils trap integrated in to the floor as well. Probably some other stuff as well but that’s what I’ve noticed so far.
Even better – found this floor plan over on superwiki –
http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=File:MenofLettersFloorplanBIG.jpg
[quote name=”jarielynn”]The inconsistency in “Bad Boys” where a 12 year old Sam is playing with an airplane. Some say he was too old for that. I say this-
Sam did not have much of a childhood, so I could see him grabbing at every chance he got. I’m thinking this may be a special toy to him. As seen in previous episodes he never had many frivolities. John wasn’t there for most of their Christmas’.
John may have gotten this for him to ease his aching heart. Dean was away, hurt. Sam was probably upset and wanted to go to his brother right away. John bought him the plane before taking him to bobby’s to ease that ache. He wanted to give Sam something else to focus on. It worked. It brought the child out in him and for a moment he was able to be a kid. It may have given John a chance to bond a little with Sam while Dean was away, too.
I loved Dean looking out at Sam to see his little bro being a kid… reminded him why Sam needed him so much.
P
.[/quote]
I know! It was so cute. I loved how “Bad Boys” reinforced the brotherly bond. I loved that it reinforced how their past experiences shaped their current lives. And I loved that they got canon right:
Sonny asks Dee-Dawg where he got the marks on his arms. “Werewolf,” Dean says. Dean said he was 16 at the time. That makes Sam 12.
In “After School Special,” freshman Sam (I was 14 when I was a freshman, so I’ll assume Sam was, too.) hands in an essay to Mr. Wyatt about how he, Dean, and John killed a werewolf “last summer.” “Last summer” as opposed to “this past summer” indicates Sam would be roughly 12, or the summer Dean was away at Sonny’s.
[quote]The inconsistency in “Bad Boys” where a 12 year old Sam is playing with an airplane. Some say he was too old for that. I say this-
Sam did not have much of a childhood, so I could see him grabbing at every chance he got. I’m thinking this may be a special toy to him. As seen in previous episodes he never had many frivolities. John wasn’t there for most of their Christmas’.
John may have gotten this for him to ease his aching heart. Dean was away, hurt. Sam was probably upset and wanted to go to his brother right away. John bought him the plane before taking him to bobby’s to ease that ache. He wanted to give Sam something else to focus on. It worked. It brought the child out in him and for a moment he was able to be a kid. It may have given John a chance to bond a little with Sam while Dean was away, too.
I loved Dean looking out at Sam to see his little bro being a kid… reminded him why Sam needed him so much.
P
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I know! It was so cute. I loved how “Bad Boys” reinforced the brotherly bond. I loved that it reinforced how their past experiences shaped their current lives. And I loved that they got canon right:
Sonny asks Dee-Dawg where he got the marks on his arms. “Werewolf,” Dean says. Dean said he was 16 at the time. That makes Sam 12.
In “After School Special,” freshman Sam (I was 14 when I was a freshman, so I’ll assume Sam was, too.) hands in an essay to Mr. Wyatt about how he, Dean, and John killed a werewolf “last summer.” “Last summer” as opposed to “this past summer” indicates Sam would be roughly 12, or the summer Dean was away at Sonny’s.