Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 9×07 “Bad Boys”
If you have not seen tonight’s episode then spoilers are below…be warned.
Brief recap: The episode begins with a classic Supernatural murder scene. This time an old man gets poked by a big ol’ back hoe type machine. The poke was not gentle, shall we say? The story is a classic Supernatural episode with a nostalgic twist. We find out that Dean stole food and was put in a boys’ home when he was 16. The guy who ran the home, Sonny, is a man who looks strikingly like Sam Winchester at age forty and after a few months sabbatical in the forest. The home now is kind of in disrepair with a few smartass bullies and one small kid, who is the one being bullied. This would be Timmy, with whom Dean bonds.
The episode is threaded throughout with flashbacks to Dean’s time at the home and how he was a star athlete, boyfriend to a local girl, and had dreams of being a mechanic. Anyway, the main story centers on finding a ghost that’s haunting the boys’ home and after a few false leads, we find out that it’s the creepy kid’s mother. Apparently she is anchored to him in some way that we have not been told about previously in our Supernatural ghost lore, but I’ve long since given up on tracing the show’s ‘mythologies.
The episode ends with Timmy telling his mommy to leave everyone alone and in a beautiful special effect, her burned ghost skin falls away and becomes beautiful again before disappearing into smoke. The final act reveals that Dean was getting ready to go to his first school dance when John, the very bad father, shows up and takes Dean away. Sonny offers to fight to keep him there but after seeing Sam in the Impala, Dean chooses to leave with his family. The current Sam thanks Dean for all that he’s done for Sam, but Dean, being Dean, shrugs off the emotion and they drive away.
1. Mother’s ghost special effect was awesome. Kudos VFX.
2. The actor playing young Dean did very well. Nice emotion.
3. Great classic Supernatural feel to episode. Old school feelings.
4. The AMULET!!!!
5. Kevin Parks’ direction was wonderful. He has a beautiful grasp of shot and angle. I love his eye.
Things I didn’t like:
1. Sorry but I thought it was a grievous emotional retcon for Dean. Dean loved that life and to pretend like he wanted normal is just a travesty and mocks the pilot. Dean IDOLIZED his father and I am hard pressed to think a pre-season one Dean would allow anyone to say bad things about John. Sorry, that’s how I feel.
2. The continuing character assassination of John Winchester.
3. What was Robin’s point? She was our mini-Amelia.
4. No Zeke popping out when Sam is choking? Seems discontinuous. In the words of Klum, “You’re either in or you’re out.”
Theories of the Week:
1. I really don’t have any. It was a MOTW episode and did little for the mytharc.
2. Still not sure on ghost mythologies.
3. I think we’re in Oz and Zeke is the Wizard.
Share your thoughts, speculations, and other feelings below.
I didn’t see this episode as character assassination on John, him letting Dean stay at the boys home felt in character. Dean screwed up, and had to pay the consequences.
I don’t think Dean necessarily wanted a normal life, he got a taste of it and liked it. But when push came to shove he chose family. I think this episodes is nice companion piece to “After School Special,” as it shows why/how young Dean forgoes making any real connections with people, and just embraces the life.
The ghost mythology seemed fine, I’m reminded of “Roadkill,” nothing was technically anchoring Molly McNamara she was caught in a death echo, but she got out of it and saw her husband was fine, she was able to pass on. Same goes for Timmy’s mom, she saw he didn’t need her any more and moved on.
I didn’t see this episode as character assassination on John, him letting Dean stay at the boys home felt in character. Dean screwed up, and had to pay the consequences.
I don’t think Dean necessarily wanted a normal life, he got a taste of it and liked it. But when push came to shove he chose family. I think this episodes is nice companion piece to “After School Special,” as it shows why/how young Dean forgoes making any real connections with people, and just embraces the life.
The ghost mythology seemed fine, I’m reminded of “Roadkill,” nothing was technically anchoring Molly McNamara she was caught in a death echo, but she got out of it and saw her husband was fine, she was able to pass on. Same goes for Timmy’s mom, she saw he didn’t need her any more and moved on.
Thanks Bookdal. Sound like I enjoyed the episode more than you. I liked the good old fashioned ghost story. More than that, I really enjoyed the Dean background, and I did not see it as inconsistent. He was a 16 year old kid. He had a chance at normal for the first time in his life, and he liked it. But, when he saw his little brother in the car, he could not leave him, so went back. And, being Dean, he did not look back, but doubled-down on his decision. How nanny times have we seen him do that? Not going to think twice about leaving Callie at the end of Route 666, not going to talk to Sam about Lisa and Ben once he decided to end it, etc.
And, Sam being Sam, seeing what Dean had and gave up, knew it was for him, and thanked his brother – who of course did the Dean thing and shut him down.
As to John, I bet there was some bad thing going on and Dean getting put in a safe place was a way to keep him out of harm’s way while John took care of it. John probably figured Sam would stay put at Bobby’s but Dean, at 16 with all his bravado, would track his dad down to help and be in harm’s way. Once the danger passed, John retrieved both kids. (I know, no evidence of this in the episode, but no evidence of it not being the case, so I am going with it.)
Thanks Bookdal. Sound like I enjoyed the episode more than you. I liked the good old fashioned ghost story. More than that, I really enjoyed the Dean background, and I did not see it as inconsistent. He was a 16 year old kid. He had a chance at normal for the first time in his life, and he liked it. But, when he saw his little brother in the car, he could not leave him, so went back. And, being Dean, he did not look back, but doubled-down on his decision. How nanny times have we seen him do that? Not going to think twice about leaving Callie at the end of Route 666, not going to talk to Sam about Lisa and Ben once he decided to end it, etc.
And, Sam being Sam, seeing what Dean had and gave up, knew it was for him, and thanked his brother – who of course did the Dean thing and shut him down.
As to John, I bet there was some bad thing going on and Dean getting put in a safe place was a way to keep him out of harm’s way while John took care of it. John probably figured Sam would stay put at Bobby’s but Dean, at 16 with all his bravado, would track his dad down to help and be in harm’s way. Once the danger passed, John retrieved both kids. (I know, no evidence of this in the episode, but no evidence of it not being the case, so I am going with it.)
I loved this episode. As for the ghost being anchored to Timmy we have seen other ghosts who had anchored themselves here and when they chose to move on they did so, like Father Gregory in 2.13 “Houses of the Holy”. There was also Molly in 2.16 “Roadkill”. She was kept against her will but could move on later. So some ghosts seem to be able to choose to stay and some who “let go” can move on by themselves.
While I enjoyed the old school, classic SPN feel and adored the brother feels, I was frustrated by all the canon fails.
It feels like the writers are beginning to have no respect for canon – they would rather just retcon to suit their own needs. It’s like they have no interest in established canon – would rather just create their own to their taste.
I get that SPN is 9 years old, but most SPN fans would be able tell you how much Dean idolized his Dad growing up & enjoyed the hunt. I don’t buy that Dean ever really wanted or expected normal @ 16. He has always accepted & slotted right into the hunters life.
And yeah, John was a sometimes suspect father, but I also don’t buy he would have left Dean alone & unprotected in a boys’ home for 2 months (even at 16)…for stealing food no less when the Winchesters made a living stealing from others via credit card fraud or hustling pool or whatever.
And what was with Dean & John telling Sam that the reason he went missing for 2 months was because he was lost on a hunt..?? WTF? How traumatizing should that have been to a 12 year old Sam. Sam knew about all the bad, creepy creatures out there & he was totally OK with big brother just missing..?
What was the point of even lying about it in the first point? It was a very weak & contrived story point.
I thought this episode was going to reveal some BIG secret about Dean’s past. I didn’t really learn anything by watching the episode as we knew the secret thanks to the preview.
Also, did Sam look oddly young to you? Do 12 year olds still play with toy airplanes?
Oh, well. Timmy was super cute, I liked Sonny mustache, I enjoyed the creepy Mom ghost, it was good to see the boys grave digging & salting & burning, & the bath tub death scene was badass. PLUS we saw the amulet!
I kinda hate that all the Sam & Dean feels can make up for episode with so many issues.
While I enjoyed the old school, classic SPN feel and adored the brother feels, I was frustrated by all the canon fails.
It feels like the writers are beginning to have no respect for canon – they would rather just retcon to suit their own needs. It’s like they have no interest in established canon – would rather just create their own to their taste.
I get that SPN is 9 years old, but most SPN fans would be able tell you how much Dean idolized his Dad growing up & enjoyed the hunt. I don’t buy that Dean ever really wanted or expected normal @ 16. He has always accepted & slotted right into the hunters life.
And yeah, John was a sometimes suspect father, but I also don’t buy he would have left Dean alone & unprotected in a boys’ home for 2 months (even at 16)…for stealing food no less when the Winchesters made a living stealing from others via credit card fraud or hustling pool or whatever.
And what was with Dean & John telling Sam that the reason he went missing for 2 months was because he was lost on a hunt..?? WTF? How traumatizing should that have been to a 12 year old Sam. Sam knew about all the bad, creepy creatures out there & he was totally OK with big brother just missing..?
What was the point of even lying about it in the first point? It was a very weak & contrived story point.
I thought this episode was going to reveal some BIG secret about Dean’s past. I didn’t really learn anything by watching the episode as we knew the secret thanks to the preview.
Also, did Sam look oddly young to you? Do 12 year olds still play with toy airplanes?
Oh, well. Timmy was super cute, I liked Sonny mustache, I enjoyed the creepy Mom ghost, it was good to see the boys grave digging & salting & burning, & the bath tub death scene was badass. PLUS we saw the amulet!
I kinda hate that all the Sam & Dean feels can make up for episode with so many issues.
[b]1. Sorry but I thought it was a grievous emotional retcon for Dean. Dean loved that life and to pretend like he wanted normal is just a travesty and mocks the pilot. Dean IDOLIZED his father and I am hard pressed to think a pre-season one Dean would allow anyone to say bad things about John. Sorry, that’s how I feel[/b]
and
[b]2.The continuing character assassination of John Winchester.[/b] I agree with both these. Much of what Dean did is at odds with how I think he has been portrayed before. Way back when Sam stated and Dean never disputed that John’s number ONE rule was never tell anyone what we do. I couldn’t see John, paranoid control freak that he was allowing Dean to be in the supervision of a non-hunter, no matter what Dean did. Frankly, I don’t think John would have left Dean there as a punishment in any case. It just seems out of character. I can’t see a 16 year old Dean blithely breaking rule number one and telling Sonny about werewolves and I can’t see why Sonny would believe it without a supernatural incident at the home. I can’t see Sam not questioning Bobby or John more when Dean disappeared while John was away. I can see Dean having a normal experience and then deciding to commit to the life, but the emotional beats were off for me.
[b]3. What was Robin’s point? She was our mini-Amelia.[/b] I have no idea what her point was. Probably to prove how much Dean sacrificed for ungrateful selfish Sammy, since it was made abundantly clear that he gave up everything for Sam, so how dare Sam be angry when he finds out about Zeke. I felt that it was a total manipulation on the part of the writers.
[b]4. No Zeke popping out when Sam is choking? Seems discontinuous. In the words of Klum, “You’re either in or you’re out.”[/b] I suspect that Zeke keeping his possession of Sam secret is more important to him than saving Sam. If he had come out Robin and the kid would have seen that Sam wasn’t Sam and then Sam could find out. Zeke has to know that Dean wouldn’t accept Robin and Timmy being killed the way he accepted the soldier demons being killed or the Reaper being killed. So Zeke laid low hoping he wouldn’t have to come out and blow his cover.
On the plus side, it was nice to have a good old fashioned COTW. The ghost mythology wasn’t too off if you think back to Roadkill and even the Woman in White who could only be destroyed by her children. There was some nice brotherly moments. I’m guessing the mytharc is about to ramp up to the mid-season finale, so this may be the end of or nearing the end of the calm before the storm.
[b]1. Sorry but I thought it was a grievous emotional retcon for Dean. Dean loved that life and to pretend like he wanted normal is just a travesty and mocks the pilot. Dean IDOLIZED his father and I am hard pressed to think a pre-season one Dean would allow anyone to say bad things about John. Sorry, that’s how I feel[/b]
and
[b]2.The continuing character assassination of John Winchester.[/b] I agree with both these. Much of what Dean did is at odds with how I think he has been portrayed before. Way back when Sam stated and Dean never disputed that John’s number ONE rule was never tell anyone what we do. I couldn’t see John, paranoid control freak that he was allowing Dean to be in the supervision of a non-hunter, no matter what Dean did. Frankly, I don’t think John would have left Dean there as a punishment in any case. It just seems out of character. I can’t see a 16 year old Dean blithely breaking rule number one and telling Sonny about werewolves and I can’t see why Sonny would believe it without a supernatural incident at the home. I can’t see Sam not questioning Bobby or John more when Dean disappeared while John was away. I can see Dean having a normal experience and then deciding to commit to the life, but the emotional beats were off for me.
[b]3. What was Robin’s point? She was our mini-Amelia.[/b] I have no idea what her point was. Probably to prove how much Dean sacrificed for ungrateful selfish Sammy, since it was made abundantly clear that he gave up everything for Sam, so how dare Sam be angry when he finds out about Zeke. I felt that it was a total manipulation on the part of the writers.
[b]4. No Zeke popping out when Sam is choking? Seems discontinuous. In the words of Klum, “You’re either in or you’re out.”[/b] I suspect that Zeke keeping his possession of Sam secret is more important to him than saving Sam. If he had come out Robin and the kid would have seen that Sam wasn’t Sam and then Sam could find out. Zeke has to know that Dean wouldn’t accept Robin and Timmy being killed the way he accepted the soldier demons being killed or the Reaper being killed. So Zeke laid low hoping he wouldn’t have to come out and blow his cover.
On the plus side, it was nice to have a good old fashioned COTW. The ghost mythology wasn’t too off if you think back to Roadkill and even the Woman in White who could only be destroyed by her children. There was some nice brotherly moments. I’m guessing the mytharc is about to ramp up to the mid-season finale, so this may be the end of or nearing the end of the calm before the storm.
Thanks, Bookdal! My goodness, you were quick with getting this article posted! No flies on you, sister!
I, too, have a difficult time with reconciling the way Dean has loved and emulated his father with the John Winchester that has been shown to us in later seasons.Yes, he made mistakes as a parent, but gosh, now he seems more like a monster or a curse that the brothers have had to bear.
I get that, as a traumatized parent and an ex-Marine, he felt it necessary not to coddle his boys and he was a bit obsessive about making sure they were prepared to defend themselves and deal with the supernatural world. He certainly seemed to know the supernatural baddies would not be leaving Sam alone and that he needed extra protection as a result. But, I also like to think that they had family bonding times while traveling together – singing along to songs in the car or stopping for ice cream or hamburgers and root beer. John teaching Dean to play poker with pennies while Sam took a nap as a toddler. John and Dean talking and sharing stories while Sam slept in the back seat. John teaching the boys how to fish and then prepare what they caught over a campfire.
I’d love to see the moment that Dean realizes that for all his gruffness and toughness John loves his sons deeply and is trying to keep them safe. Maybe the first time they go on a hunt together? Leaving Sam at school and doing the research end? After Dean has gotten into some trouble once again?
Dean is not a person who gives his love and loyalty lightly so it is hard to believe that his dad wold have meant so much to him if he were really as bad as the last few seasons have drawn him to be.
Other than the kitchen sink stew that Dean made for Sam last season, couldn’t we have some more call backs to the good parenting that John did?! Geez! Come on, writers!
Thanks, Bookdal! My goodness, you were quick with getting this article posted! No flies on you, sister!
I, too, have a difficult time with reconciling the way Dean has loved and emulated his father with the John Winchester that has been shown to us in later seasons.Yes, he made mistakes as a parent, but gosh, now he seems more like a monster or a curse that the brothers have had to bear.
I get that, as a traumatized parent and an ex-Marine, he felt it necessary not to coddle his boys and he was a bit obsessive about making sure they were prepared to defend themselves and deal with the supernatural world. He certainly seemed to know the supernatural baddies would not be leaving Sam alone and that he needed extra protection as a result. But, I also like to think that they had family bonding times while traveling together – singing along to songs in the car or stopping for ice cream or hamburgers and root beer. John teaching Dean to play poker with pennies while Sam took a nap as a toddler. John and Dean talking and sharing stories while Sam slept in the back seat. John teaching the boys how to fish and then prepare what they caught over a campfire.
I’d love to see the moment that Dean realizes that for all his gruffness and toughness John loves his sons deeply and is trying to keep them safe. Maybe the first time they go on a hunt together? Leaving Sam at school and doing the research end? After Dean has gotten into some trouble once again?
Dean is not a person who gives his love and loyalty lightly so it is hard to believe that his dad wold have meant so much to him if he were really as bad as the last few seasons have drawn him to be.
Other than the kitchen sink stew that Dean made for Sam last season, couldn’t we have some more call backs to the good parenting that John did?! Geez! Come on, writers!
Another thought – Sam reading reading aloud from The Three Musketeers while John and Dean worked on the Impala – John teaching Dean while Sam reads.
I can keep thinking of these all night, but I have to go to bed. School in the morning.
Another thought – Sam reading reading aloud from The Three Musketeers while John and Dean worked on the Impala – John teaching Dean while Sam reads.
I can keep thinking of these all night, but I have to go to bed. School in the morning.
Thanks for the overview! This may sound very shallow, but the biggest ‘continuity fail’ to me was Dean never having kissed a girl before he turned SIXTEEN? So far as I know it was never stated outright when he had his first kiss, so it’s technically not a break from canon, but just given who he is and his backstory, I have a hard time buying that he never even kissed a girl before he turned 16.
Also, just speaking about continuity failure…even if John were willing to leave Dean alone for two months, would Dean really be willing to leave Sam alone for that long? Especially since when Dean was first arrested Sam was all by himself at the motel, without food or money? Also, why would Dean give them his real name? Or his father’s cell? The Dean we saw at age eleven or so was clever enough to sneak into a family’s home and take presents without being detected. Would sixteen-year-old Dean really have such a hard time fooling the police and then escaping?
I really enjoyed this episode, but the character and story continuity was so shaky I struggled with it at the same time.
Thanks for the overview! This may sound very shallow, but the biggest ‘continuity fail’ to me was Dean never having kissed a girl before he turned SIXTEEN? So far as I know it was never stated outright when he had his first kiss, so it’s technically not a break from canon, but just given who he is and his backstory, I have a hard time buying that he never even kissed a girl before he turned 16.
Also, just speaking about continuity failure…even if John were willing to leave Dean alone for two months, would Dean really be willing to leave Sam alone for that long? Especially since when Dean was first arrested Sam was all by himself at the motel, without food or money? Also, why would Dean give them his real name? Or his father’s cell? The Dean we saw at age eleven or so was clever enough to sneak into a family’s home and take presents without being detected. Would sixteen-year-old Dean really have such a hard time fooling the police and then escaping?
I really enjoyed this episode, but the character and story continuity was so shaky I struggled with it at the same time.
[quote name=”BookLady”]
Also, did Sam look oddly young to you? Do 12 year olds still play with toy airplanes?[/quote]
Maybe, but remember Sam was a scrawny kid. He’s like half Dean’s size in “After School Special.” Sam could technically still be 11 depending on when in Spring the episode takes place, but yeah I’d say he’s old enough to be playing with a toy.
[quote]
Also, did Sam look oddly young to you? Do 12 year olds still play with toy airplanes?[/quote]
Maybe, but remember Sam was a scrawny kid. He’s like half Dean’s size in “After School Special.” Sam could technically still be 11 depending on when in Spring the episode takes place, but yeah I’d say he’s old enough to be playing with a toy.
[quote] Also, did Sam look oddly young to you? Do 12 year olds still play with toy airplanes?[/quote]
I’m sure part of it was the inability to get Colin Ford to play Sam. However on Twitter Adam Glass, who wrote the darned thing, said Sam didn’t really remember because he was NINE when Dean was 16. Since no age was given for Sam, I think he was 11-12, but that would put it 2 years after Sam found out John had lied to him, wasn’t trusting John and was more and more unhappy with their unsettled life. So who knows what they were going for with Sam and the airplane. A lot of things didn’t fit with previous canon. I’m just chalking it up to a universe with rogue reapers that possess people and deals never to look for each other.
[quote] Also, did Sam look oddly young to you? Do 12 year olds still play with toy airplanes?[/quote]
I’m sure part of it was the inability to get Colin Ford to play Sam. However on Twitter Adam Glass, who wrote the darned thing, said Sam didn’t really remember because he was NINE when Dean was 16. Since no age was given for Sam, I think he was 11-12, but that would put it 2 years after Sam found out John had lied to him, wasn’t trusting John and was more and more unhappy with their unsettled life. So who knows what they were going for with Sam and the airplane. A lot of things didn’t fit with previous canon. I’m just chalking it up to a universe with rogue reapers that possess people and deals never to look for each other.
Okay, that end scene, I cried. I didn’t cry when Sam was in a hospital because I know he’s gonna be okay. But that scene when Dean saw Sam at the Impala….
Yup, Dean Winchester made me cry. 😀
First and foremost, the AMULET!!!!!! So happy to see it again dangling around Dean’s neck.
Did little Sammy look 12 or 9? He did small for his age when he was little but I’m going to stick to canon and consider that Sam was just small at 12.
I have my fact. At the pilot Dean was 26 and Sam was 22 because I assume Sam was at Standford for 4 years since he graduate from high school at 18.
Another fact, During Swap Meat Sam showed his ID yo the bartender that his 26. That’s 4 years after the pilot and I assume that that ID showed his real age because why would he fake his age in ID when he’s clearly of legal age?
Okay, that end scene, I cried. I didn’t cry when Sam was in a hospital because I know he’s gonna be okay. But that scene when Dean saw Sam at the Impala….
Yup, Dean Winchester made me cry. 😀
First and foremost, the AMULET!!!!!! So happy to see it again dangling around Dean’s neck.
Did little Sammy look 12 or 9? He did small for his age when he was little but I’m going to stick to canon and consider that Sam was just small at 12.
I have my fact. At the pilot Dean was 26 and Sam was 22 because I assume Sam was at Standford for 4 years since he graduate from high school at 18.
Another fact, During Swap Meat Sam showed his ID yo the bartender that his 26. That’s 4 years after the pilot and I assume that that ID showed his real age because why would he fake his age in ID when he’s clearly of legal age?
[quote name=”Mick”][quote name=”BookLady”]
Also, did Sam look oddly young to you? Do 12 year olds still play with toy airplanes?[/quote]
Maybe, but remember Sam was a scrawny kid. He’s like half Dean’s size in “After School Special.” Sam could technically still be 11 depending on when in Spring the episode takes place, but yeah I’d say he’s old enough to be playing with a toy.[/quote]
That’s the fact that I’m gonna stick to it. Sammy’s just small for his age.
[quote][quote]
Also, did Sam look oddly young to you? Do 12 year olds still play with toy airplanes?[/quote]
Maybe, but remember Sam was a scrawny kid. He’s like half Dean’s size in “After School Special.” Sam could technically still be 11 depending on when in Spring the episode takes place, but yeah I’d say he’s old enough to be playing with a toy.[/quote]
That’s the fact that I’m gonna stick to it. Sammy’s just small for his age.
[quote]Sorry but I thought it was a grievous emotional retcon for Dean. Dean loved that life and to pretend like he wanted normal is just a travesty and mocks the pilot. Dean IDOLIZED his father and I am hard pressed to think a pre-season one Dean would allow anyone to say bad things about John. Sorry, that’s how I feel. [/quote]
Hi, Bookdal. I remember in DALDOM when Dean was being confronted by his own self. Let’s have some script ….
DREAM DEAN : Dad knew who you really were. A good soldier and nothing else. Daddy’s blunt little instrument. (angry) Your own father didn’t care whether you lived or died. Why should you?
DEAN : (angry) Son of a bitch!
(screaming angrily) My father was an obsessed bastard!
All that crap he dumped on me, about protecting Sam. That was his crap. He’s the one who couldn’t protect his family. He-
He’s the one who let Mom die. Who wasn’t there for Sam. I always was! He wasn’t fair! I didn’t deserve what he put on me.
See,…. deep deep down under the Nile river that’s not in Egypt, Dean resents his father but at the same time he’s also trying so hard to understand the man. This two feelings warring in his head and in his heart. John was his dad, no matter what happens he loved his dad.
No matter what he feels toward his old man, no one talks ill about him. If John made mistakes it’s no one’s problem but the family’s. They keep it in the family. If Dean resent his father then that’s no one’s business but him.
Every kid wants happiness. Even Dean wants it at some part of his life. Something other than hunting, something that makes him happy, just like what other kids have. That’s natural. If Dean didn’t want that at all at some part of his life when he was a teenager, If he was only an obedient son and BLINDLY idolized his father. He will act like a robot not human.
Dean’s not dumb. He thinks, he feels, he wants but he keeps it all inside his iron armor to keep his heart from hurt. And when he was in the ‘boys home’ away from John, his armor was weakening and he let himself to want. He’s a teenagers and curious and rebellious. This is Dean away from John. A soldier away from his Drill sergeant.
Of course he had to go back because if not for his Dad he would do it for Sammy.
[quote]Sorry but I thought it was a grievous emotional retcon for Dean. Dean loved that life and to pretend like he wanted normal is just a travesty and mocks the pilot. Dean IDOLIZED his father and I am hard pressed to think a pre-season one Dean would allow anyone to say bad things about John. Sorry, that’s how I feel. [/quote]
Hi, Bookdal. I remember in DALDOM when Dean was being confronted by his own self. Let’s have some script ….
DREAM DEAN : Dad knew who you really were. A good soldier and nothing else. Daddy’s blunt little instrument. (angry) Your own father didn’t care whether you lived or died. Why should you?
DEAN : (angry) Son of a bitch!
(screaming angrily) My father was an obsessed bastard!
All that crap he dumped on me, about protecting Sam. That was his crap. He’s the one who couldn’t protect his family. He-
He’s the one who let Mom die. Who wasn’t there for Sam. I always was! He wasn’t fair! I didn’t deserve what he put on me.
See,…. deep deep down under the Nile river that’s not in Egypt, Dean resents his father but at the same time he’s also trying so hard to understand the man. This two feelings warring in his head and in his heart. John was his dad, no matter what happens he loved his dad.
No matter what he feels toward his old man, no one talks ill about him. If John made mistakes it’s no one’s problem but the family’s. They keep it in the family. If Dean resent his father then that’s no one’s business but him.
Every kid wants happiness. Even Dean wants it at some part of his life. Something other than hunting, something that makes him happy, just like what other kids have. That’s natural. If Dean didn’t want that at all at some part of his life when he was a teenager, If he was only an obedient son and BLINDLY idolized his father. He will act like a robot not human.
Dean’s not dumb. He thinks, he feels, he wants but he keeps it all inside his iron armor to keep his heart from hurt. And when he was in the ‘boys home’ away from John, his armor was weakening and he let himself to want. He’s a teenagers and curious and rebellious. This is Dean away from John. A soldier away from his Drill sergeant.
Of course he had to go back because if not for his Dad he would do it for Sammy.
[quote name=”percysowner”][quote] Also, did Sam look oddly young to you? Do 12 year olds still play with toy airplanes?[/quote]
I’m sure part of it was the inability to get Colin Ford to play Sam. However on Twitter Adam Glass, who wrote the darned thing, said Sam didn’t really remember because he was NINE when Dean was 16. Since no age was given for Sam, I think he was 11-12, but that would put it 2 years after Sam found out John had lied to him, wasn’t trusting John and was more and more unhappy with their unsettled life. So who knows what they were going for with Sam and the airplane. A lot of things didn’t fit with previous canon. I’m just chalking it up to a universe with rogue reapers that possess people and deals never to look for each other.[/quote]
Adam Glass actually answered this, Dean was written/cast a 14-year-old, but during filming they felt the actor looked older, so they changed it in post.
So, if they were casting Dean to be 14, they were obviously casting Sam to be in the 9/10-year-old range. But given that it is canon that Sam was small for his age, it still works out that he could be 11-years old.
[quote name=”Samara”]Thanks for the overview! This may sound very shallow, but the biggest ‘continuity fail’ to me was Dean never having kissed a girl before he turned SIXTEEN? So far as I know it was never stated outright when he had his first kiss, so it’s technically not a break from canon, but just given who he is and his backstory, I have a hard time buying that he never even kissed a girl before he turned 16.
Also, just speaking about continuity failure…even if John were willing to leave Dean alone for two months, would Dean really be willing to leave Sam alone for that long? Especially since when Dean was first arrested Sam was all by himself at the motel, without food or money? Also, why would Dean give them his real name? Or his father’s cell? The Dean we saw at age eleven or so was clever enough to sneak into a family’s home and take presents without being detected. Would sixteen-year-old Dean really have such a hard time fooling the police and then escaping?
I really enjoyed this episode, but the character and story continuity was so shaky I struggled with it at the same time.[/quote]
Adam Glass again said on Twitter that Dean had kissed girls before, just not many. So I took his flustered reaction to be because he genuinely liked Robin.
I think there is a big difference between breaking in somewhere and trying to escape police custody. And we don’t know that he gave them John’s cell, he could have just as well called the motel got Sam to contact John and so on.
[quote][quote] Also, did Sam look oddly young to you? Do 12 year olds still play with toy airplanes?[/quote]
I’m sure part of it was the inability to get Colin Ford to play Sam. However on Twitter Adam Glass, who wrote the darned thing, said Sam didn’t really remember because he was NINE when Dean was 16. Since no age was given for Sam, I think he was 11-12, but that would put it 2 years after Sam found out John had lied to him, wasn’t trusting John and was more and more unhappy with their unsettled life. So who knows what they were going for with Sam and the airplane. A lot of things didn’t fit with previous canon. I’m just chalking it up to a universe with rogue reapers that possess people and deals never to look for each other.[/quote]
Adam Glass actually answered this, Dean was written/cast a 14-year-old, but during filming they felt the actor looked older, so they changed it in post.
So, if they were casting Dean to be 14, they were obviously casting Sam to be in the 9/10-year-old range. But given that it is canon that Sam was small for his age, it still works out that he could be 11-years old.
[quote]Thanks for the overview! This may sound very shallow, but the biggest ‘continuity fail’ to me was Dean never having kissed a girl before he turned SIXTEEN? So far as I know it was never stated outright when he had his first kiss, so it’s technically not a break from canon, but just given who he is and his backstory, I have a hard time buying that he never even kissed a girl before he turned 16.
Also, just speaking about continuity failure…even if John were willing to leave Dean alone for two months, would Dean really be willing to leave Sam alone for that long? Especially since when Dean was first arrested Sam was all by himself at the motel, without food or money? Also, why would Dean give them his real name? Or his father’s cell? The Dean we saw at age eleven or so was clever enough to sneak into a family’s home and take presents without being detected. Would sixteen-year-old Dean really have such a hard time fooling the police and then escaping?
I really enjoyed this episode, but the character and story continuity was so shaky I struggled with it at the same time.[/quote]
Adam Glass again said on Twitter that Dean had kissed girls before, just not many. So I took his flustered reaction to be because he genuinely liked Robin.
I think there is a big difference between breaking in somewhere and trying to escape police custody. And we don’t know that he gave them John’s cell, he could have just as well called the motel got Sam to contact John and so on.
I loved this episode. A good old-fashioned ghost hunt – that was genuinely scary – but one with a whole lot more substance.
I’m probably going to be in the minority here, but I thought the back story for Dean was great… and I don’t think it’s out of character at all. Even though Dean clearly idolized his father, I’m sure there were times where he was rebellious (like any teenager) – it’s just that Dean’s version of rebelling could’ve been briefly toying with the idea of living a normal life. Of course, it was fleeting, because he saw Sammy in the car and realised how much he’d missed his kid brother. After all, looking after Sammy is infused into his DNA.
So that’s how I interpret it and, honestly, I totally dig it. Because it means that Sam & Dean have more in common than we (and Sam) realised. Dean has just kept it so well hidden from his brother all these years… and we know how good he is at doing that.
I also think Sam loved finding out more about his brother… and I believe it’s part of the growth of both characters that Jeremy Carver promised. Realising that not everything is black and white. That people are complicated.
I do wish Dean would, just once, tell Sam the truth. If anyone is going to understand that he once, even fleetingly, wished for a normal life, it’s going to be his brother 🙂
Regarding John. I can totally buy that he would’ve told the cop to let Dean stew in jail for a couple of days. He would’ve seen it as a hard lesson to keep him out of jail in the future. He may not have predicted that the police would take Dean to Sonny’s farm. But I’m betting he would’ve staked the place out and made sure that Dean was okay before leaving him there for 2 months.
Fine, we weren’t shown this. But we also weren’t shown John & Dean staking out Stanford to make sure Sam was okay, which we know he did. Sam didn’t know about it until years later. And don’t forget – when they arrived at Sonny’s place – Dean made a point of telling Sam not to judge John. I’m betting he knew all along that his Dad wasn’t far away.
John not letting Dean go to the dance was harsh and to an outsider, like Sonny, would’ve seemed terrible. But how do we know that John didn’t get an urgent call from another hunter, just as he was about to collect Dean. We don’t. We choose to interpret the scene in whatever way we want to.
I do not see any of this as trashing John at all. I see it as depicting a family that were not living under normal circumstances… and that John did the best he could. Which is why Dean always defends him.
The final scenes were once again so emotional and Jared and Jensen nailed them, as always. I also thought Dylan Everett did a great job. It must be so hard coming in to play such a beloved character.
Finally, Adam Glass explained the age discrepancy thing. He wrote the episode as Dean at 14, but when they cast Dylan they thought he looked more like 16 so they changed it during filming. We only get a brief glimpse of Sam (and he was a small kid when he was 14) so I had no problem with that either.
I’m totally loving season 9 and any minor problems with canon are just that – minor – and not important to me at all 😀
I loved this episode. A good old-fashioned ghost hunt – that was genuinely scary – but one with a whole lot more substance.
I’m probably going to be in the minority here, but I thought the back story for Dean was great… and I don’t think it’s out of character at all. Even though Dean clearly idolized his father, I’m sure there were times where he was rebellious (like any teenager) – it’s just that Dean’s version of rebelling could’ve been briefly toying with the idea of living a normal life. Of course, it was fleeting, because he saw Sammy in the car and realised how much he’d missed his kid brother. After all, looking after Sammy is infused into his DNA.
So that’s how I interpret it and, honestly, I totally dig it. Because it means that Sam & Dean have more in common than we (and Sam) realised. Dean has just kept it so well hidden from his brother all these years… and we know how good he is at doing that.
I also think Sam loved finding out more about his brother… and I believe it’s part of the growth of both characters that Jeremy Carver promised. Realising that not everything is black and white. That people are complicated.
I do wish Dean would, just once, tell Sam the truth. If anyone is going to understand that he once, even fleetingly, wished for a normal life, it’s going to be his brother 🙂
Regarding John. I can totally buy that he would’ve told the cop to let Dean stew in jail for a couple of days. He would’ve seen it as a hard lesson to keep him out of jail in the future. He may not have predicted that the police would take Dean to Sonny’s farm. But I’m betting he would’ve staked the place out and made sure that Dean was okay before leaving him there for 2 months.
Fine, we weren’t shown this. But we also weren’t shown John & Dean staking out Stanford to make sure Sam was okay, which we know he did. Sam didn’t know about it until years later. And don’t forget – when they arrived at Sonny’s place – Dean made a point of telling Sam not to judge John. I’m betting he knew all along that his Dad wasn’t far away.
John not letting Dean go to the dance was harsh and to an outsider, like Sonny, would’ve seemed terrible. But how do we know that John didn’t get an urgent call from another hunter, just as he was about to collect Dean. We don’t. We choose to interpret the scene in whatever way we want to.
I do not see any of this as trashing John at all. I see it as depicting a family that were not living under normal circumstances… and that John did the best he could. Which is why Dean always defends him.
The final scenes were once again so emotional and Jared and Jensen nailed them, as always. I also thought Dylan Everett did a great job. It must be so hard coming in to play such a beloved character.
Finally, Adam Glass explained the age discrepancy thing. He wrote the episode as Dean at 14, but when they cast Dylan they thought he looked more like 16 so they changed it during filming. We only get a brief glimpse of Sam (and he was a small kid when he was 14) so I had no problem with that either.
I’m totally loving season 9 and any minor problems with canon are just that – minor – and not important to me at all 😀
[quote name=”KG_SPN”]
Regarding John. I can totally buy that he would’ve told the cop to let Dean stew in jail for a couple of days. He would’ve seen it as a hard lesson to keep him out of jail in the future. He may not have predicted that the police would take Dean to Sonny’s farm. But I’m betting he would’ve staked the place out and made sure that Dean was okay before leaving him there for 2 months.
Fine, we weren’t shown this. But we also weren’t shown John & Dean staking out Stanford to make sure Sam was okay, which we know he did. Sam didn’t know about it until years later. And don’t forget – when they arrived at Sonny’s place – Dean made a point of telling Sam not to judge John. I’m betting he knew all along that his Dad wasn’t far away.[/quote]
Also, Dean told Sam that John found him at the boys home right away.
[quote]
Regarding John. I can totally buy that he would’ve told the cop to let Dean stew in jail for a couple of days. He would’ve seen it as a hard lesson to keep him out of jail in the future. He may not have predicted that the police would take Dean to Sonny’s farm. But I’m betting he would’ve staked the place out and made sure that Dean was okay before leaving him there for 2 months.
Fine, we weren’t shown this. But we also weren’t shown John & Dean staking out Stanford to make sure Sam was okay, which we know he did. Sam didn’t know about it until years later. And don’t forget – when they arrived at Sonny’s place – Dean made a point of telling Sam not to judge John. I’m betting he knew all along that his Dad wasn’t far away.[/quote]
Also, Dean told Sam that John found him at the boys home right away.
Hey gang. Explanation for the age thing – turns out script was written for Dean to be 14 and Sam 9 going on 10. But, the kid playing Dean looked too old, so they changed the ages – without changing the Sam actor or script of him playing with toy.
Hey gang. Explanation for the age thing – turns out script was written for Dean to be 14 and Sam 9 going on 10. But, the kid playing Dean looked too old, so they changed the ages – without changing the Sam actor or script of him playing with toy.
Sorry – yes, my internet is so bloody slow that in between writing that last note and it finally appearing, several other folks said the same. Going to go put some cassette tapes in my boom box now.
Sorry – yes, my internet is so bloody slow that in between writing that last note and it finally appearing, several other folks said the same. Going to go put some cassette tapes in my boom box now.
I really like the episode, and I did not see anything wrong. I did not see the character assassination of papa John, he was trying to correct a bad situation with discipline (loosing food money, specially if he had to take care of Sam, bad,very bad) and leaving Dean in that facility is not abandonment or leaving him unprotected for that matter, he was a 16 years old who can take care of himself, proof of that is how the writers made time to let us how well Dean use his salt, his signs and how good of a fighter was by winning tournaments (which by the way the care taker understood as a good athlete)
I like how the writer try, I said try, to let the fans know that he reads and listen to all. Another proof of that was in the brother’s conversation before they enter the house. Sam insinuated how bad was Dad for leaving Dean all alone and for two months, something like other fans are saying now and Dean response was around the lines…”I know how you think (about Dad), I made a mistake, not of this was his fault”. By the way, Dean was use to be all alone since he was… who knows how old, why are everybody so concern about John leaving a 16 yo in that place?
The point of the girl. His first kiss!!!, we saw Sam’s before, so now we have Dean’s. But what I really saw was that he had a taste of the “normal” as a big boy (not the 4 years old kid), technically he was always living inside the hunters life, this is the first time that he lived for two months without his father or little brother or hunting! so, now he had the two sides to make a choice and he did. Of course we knew that Sam had to do a lot with that choice, but now we are certain….and Sam too.
I really like the episode, and I did not see anything wrong. I did not see the character assassination of papa John, he was trying to correct a bad situation with discipline (loosing food money, specially if he had to take care of Sam, bad,very bad) and leaving Dean in that facility is not abandonment or leaving him unprotected for that matter, he was a 16 years old who can take care of himself, proof of that is how the writers made time to let us how well Dean use his salt, his signs and how good of a fighter was by winning tournaments (which by the way the care taker understood as a good athlete)
I like how the writer try, I said try, to let the fans know that he reads and listen to all. Another proof of that was in the brother’s conversation before they enter the house. Sam insinuated how bad was Dad for leaving Dean all alone and for two months, something like other fans are saying now and Dean response was around the lines…”I know how you think (about Dad), I made a mistake, not of this was his fault”. By the way, Dean was use to be all alone since he was… who knows how old, why are everybody so concern about John leaving a 16 yo in that place?
The point of the girl. His first kiss!!!, we saw Sam’s before, so now we have Dean’s. But what I really saw was that he had a taste of the “normal” as a big boy (not the 4 years old kid), technically he was always living inside the hunters life, this is the first time that he lived for two months without his father or little brother or hunting! so, now he had the two sides to make a choice and he did. Of course we knew that Sam had to do a lot with that choice, but now we are certain….and Sam too.
I think John looks too stern a dad in the last scene bcs he actually is not in it. All we see is a scary huge black car looming in the dark looking like there will be no welcome for the wayward son. In fact John can’t know that Dean has different plans for the evening. He probably thinks that his son will be beside himself with joy being able to join his family again.
Both murders were horrible! Good.
The boy playing young Dean was convivcing, but let’s say it – he doesn’t look a little bit like grown-up Dean. But I can’t imagine young Jensen in this role either, with his appearance of mischievous angel from a good family. Honestly speaking, to me Dean is becoming to look more like Dean as the series progresses, he gets now this authentic weather-beaten look which he lacked in the earlier seasons.
I think John looks too stern a dad in the last scene bcs he actually is not in it. All we see is a scary huge black car looming in the dark looking like there will be no welcome for the wayward son. In fact John can’t know that Dean has different plans for the evening. He probably thinks that his son will be beside himself with joy being able to join his family again.
Both murders were horrible! Good.
The boy playing young Dean was convivcing, but let’s say it – he doesn’t look a little bit like grown-up Dean. But I can’t imagine young Jensen in this role either, with his appearance of mischievous angel from a good family. Honestly speaking, to me Dean is becoming to look more like Dean as the series progresses, he gets now this authentic weather-beaten look which he lacked in the earlier seasons.
Good old fashioned story it may be but it was still just another episode that paints John as a ‘bad’ father and Dean the brother that give up something for Sam .
Dean had a chance for what Sam has been treated so poorly over ‘normal’ and a life away from hunting and his father and brother .I honestly look at all this sometimes and left wondering .
Good old fashioned story it may be but it was still just another episode that paints John as a ‘bad’ father and Dean the brother that give up something for Sam .
Dean had a chance for what Sam has been treated so poorly over ‘normal’ and a life away from hunting and his father and brother .I honestly look at all this sometimes and left wondering .
[quote name=”Sharon”]Good old fashioned story it may be but it was still just another episode that paints John as a ‘bad’ father and Dean the brother that give up something for Sam .[/quote]
I don’t think he was shown to be a bad father, a very strict one, but that is totally in keeping with his character.
[quote]Good old fashioned story it may be but it was still just another episode that paints John as a ‘bad’ father and Dean the brother that give up something for Sam .[/quote]
I don’t think he was shown to be a bad father, a very strict one, but that is totally in keeping with his character.
[quote name=”Mick”][quote name=”Sharon”]Good old fashioned story it may be but it was still just another episode that paints John as a ‘bad’ father and Dean the brother that give up something for Sam .[/quote]
I don’t think he was shown to be a bad father, a very strict one, but that is totally in keeping with his character.[/quote]
Strict /bad there can be a fine line between the two and how you see John will depend on the feelings you have towards him and how you view him.
I have my own opinions on John that I tend to keep to myself as he can be a polarizing character and presence in the boys lives.
[quote][quote]Good old fashioned story it may be but it was still just another episode that paints John as a ‘bad’ father and Dean the brother that give up something for Sam .[/quote]
I don’t think he was shown to be a bad father, a very strict one, but that is totally in keeping with his character.[/quote]
Strict /bad there can be a fine line between the two and how you see John will depend on the feelings you have towards him and how you view him.
I have my own opinions on John that I tend to keep to myself as he can be a polarizing character and presence in the boys lives.
Well, I really liked this episode. It had an old school feel to it that I sometimes miss in the newer seasons, it was scary, and it had lots of brother feels! And Dylan Everett had young Dean down pat!
I didn’t think of it as retcon (or character assasination) for any of the characters:
As others have said here in the comments, John would let Dean stay in the home because he did lose the food money, and I can really see John wanting to “teach Dean a lesson” for being (in John’s eyes) so irresponsible. That doesn’t mean he was a bad father, just a very strict one. And that’s actually how we see John througout the series: He was drilling his kids, was expecting a lot of them, maybe even too much for their age (remember Something Wicked?), and yes, that’s not how a good, reasonable father would/should act in normal circumstances, but for the Winchesters, nothing was normal! And it may have sucked, but that’s actually who John was – or at least how I see him.
As for Dean allowing anyone to say bad things about John, or wanting normal: I guess even if he knew he “screwed up” by loosing the money, and maybe even understood why John left him in police custody, wouldn’t a teenage boy still be kinda bummed by being “abandoned” like that? (ooh, and especially Dean with all his abandonment issues…) And why shouldn’t he then let his deep-seated and conflicting emotions about his father (as kaj pointed out) tip a bit to the negative in this situation? And I really like that we saw that Dean isn’t, and wasn’t, only a good soldier, but that he yearned for the “normal life” as well – but he chose to be with his family because of Sammy. Like KG_SPN, I really love this interpretation! Brotherly love for the win!
That being said, I also understand some of the critique: My first thought after the episode ended was that for me, it would have worked better if they had set it one or two years earlier, so that Dean would be 14 or 15… Young Dean had this kind of feel for me, and also seing young Sam in the car playing with toys didn’t make a lot of sense for me when Sam was supposed to be 12. And then I go and read Adam Glass’ twitter feed and see that he actually wrote this as Dean being 14, but they had to change it because Dylan Everett, playing young Dean, looked older, so they had to adjust the ages and ADR the whole thing – like some commenters here pointed out as well. And, weirdly enough, that actually made me feel a lot better about everything! That’s the problems of a TV production, sometimes they can’t control everything in it and have to change things like that… I guess in my head, I’ll always see Dean as 14 and Sam as 10 here… 🙂
Well, I really liked this episode. It had an old school feel to it that I sometimes miss in the newer seasons, it was scary, and it had lots of brother feels! And Dylan Everett had young Dean down pat!
I didn’t think of it as retcon (or character assasination) for any of the characters:
As others have said here in the comments, John would let Dean stay in the home because he did lose the food money, and I can really see John wanting to “teach Dean a lesson” for being (in John’s eyes) so irresponsible. That doesn’t mean he was a bad father, just a very strict one. And that’s actually how we see John througout the series: He was drilling his kids, was expecting a lot of them, maybe even too much for their age (remember Something Wicked?), and yes, that’s not how a good, reasonable father would/should act in normal circumstances, but for the Winchesters, nothing was normal! And it may have sucked, but that’s actually who John was – or at least how I see him.
As for Dean allowing anyone to say bad things about John, or wanting normal: I guess even if he knew he “screwed up” by loosing the money, and maybe even understood why John left him in police custody, wouldn’t a teenage boy still be kinda bummed by being “abandoned” like that? (ooh, and especially Dean with all his abandonment issues…) And why shouldn’t he then let his deep-seated and conflicting emotions about his father (as kaj pointed out) tip a bit to the negative in this situation? And I really like that we saw that Dean isn’t, and wasn’t, only a good soldier, but that he yearned for the “normal life” as well – but he chose to be with his family because of Sammy. Like KG_SPN, I really love this interpretation! Brotherly love for the win!
That being said, I also understand some of the critique: My first thought after the episode ended was that for me, it would have worked better if they had set it one or two years earlier, so that Dean would be 14 or 15… Young Dean had this kind of feel for me, and also seing young Sam in the car playing with toys didn’t make a lot of sense for me when Sam was supposed to be 12. And then I go and read Adam Glass’ twitter feed and see that he actually wrote this as Dean being 14, but they had to change it because Dylan Everett, playing young Dean, looked older, so they had to adjust the ages and ADR the whole thing – like some commenters here pointed out as well. And, weirdly enough, that actually made me feel a lot better about everything! That’s the problems of a TV production, sometimes they can’t control everything in it and have to change things like that… I guess in my head, I’ll always see Dean as 14 and Sam as 10 here… 🙂
I liked this episode for it’s simplicity. It was just a good old fashioned ghost hunt. Yay!
I may get cracked on the head for saying this, as most love john… but I have always thought he was a bit of a douche. The things he has put those boys through… ugh! And starting them out so young. They had no childhood what so ever. I can’t even imagine talking my 9 year old out, leaving for days and letting him take care of my 5 year old. I mean in reality it would be awful. Right? So… I don’t mind if they give us a glimpse of what an actual horrible father he was, because well… he was!
I also completely understand Deans moment of normal. Of course he wanted to be a normal kid. Yeah, he may love hunting and looked up to his dad but he’s still just a boy. And to given that glimpse of what his life could be, should’ve been, like, and then have it taken away. Yeah, he’s sad. He should be.
Loved the fact he chose it for Sammy. I knew it, was waiting for that moment at the end. Brought tears to my eyes.
Robin was a little lacking. I felt sure that there would be a little bit more to do with her. Plus, Dean is 16 and he was all shy like he had never kissed a girl? In a prior episode, as a Senior, he was Mr. Stud. So? Maybe that one year changed him. AND maybe.. this is why, realizing he could never have the “normal” with a girl. This could be how the whole women for sex only thing started for Dean… hmmmm…. 🙂 It makes more sense (like gata113 said) if he had been 14.
I liked this episode for it’s simplicity. It was just a good old fashioned ghost hunt. Yay!
I may get cracked on the head for saying this, as most love john… but I have always thought he was a bit of a douche. The things he has put those boys through… ugh! And starting them out so young. They had no childhood what so ever. I can’t even imagine talking my 9 year old out, leaving for days and letting him take care of my 5 year old. I mean in reality it would be awful. Right? So… I don’t mind if they give us a glimpse of what an actual horrible father he was, because well… he was!
I also completely understand Deans moment of normal. Of course he wanted to be a normal kid. Yeah, he may love hunting and looked up to his dad but he’s still just a boy. And to given that glimpse of what his life could be, should’ve been, like, and then have it taken away. Yeah, he’s sad. He should be.
Loved the fact he chose it for Sammy. I knew it, was waiting for that moment at the end. Brought tears to my eyes.
Robin was a little lacking. I felt sure that there would be a little bit more to do with her. Plus, Dean is 16 and he was all shy like he had never kissed a girl? In a prior episode, as a Senior, he was Mr. Stud. So? Maybe that one year changed him. AND maybe.. this is why, realizing he could never have the “normal” with a girl. This could be how the whole women for sex only thing started for Dean… hmmmm…. 🙂 It makes more sense (like gata113 said) if he had been 14.
Loved the episode. I don’t see the canon problem. In the early years of the show the theme was always Dean wanted a home. John even says in one episode that he wished he could give Dean the home he wants. That was the whole point of Sam telling Dean to go to Lisa. It’s only later, after he breaks with Lisa and Ben, that Dean comes to the realization that he’s a hunter, a killer and a normal family life will never be possible.
Dean never says anything bad about John in this episode and still defends why he did what he did.
Good episode.
Loved the episode. I don’t see the canon problem. In the early years of the show the theme was always Dean wanted a home. John even says in one episode that he wished he could give Dean the home he wants. That was the whole point of Sam telling Dean to go to Lisa. It’s only later, after he breaks with Lisa and Ben, that Dean comes to the realization that he’s a hunter, a killer and a normal family life will never be possible.
Dean never says anything bad about John in this episode and still defends why he did what he did.
Good episode.
[quote name=”jarielynn”]So? Maybe that one year changed him. AND maybe.. this is why, realizing he could never have the “normal” with a girl. This could be how the whole women for sex only thing started for Dean…[/quote]
Ooooh yes! That makes total sense! Love those character insights!
[quote]So? Maybe that one year changed him. AND maybe.. this is why, realizing he could never have the “normal” with a girl. This could be how the whole women for sex only thing started for Dean…[/quote]
Ooooh yes! That makes total sense! Love those character insights!
One other thing. The only mistake I think they made was making Dean 16 instead of 14. That actor definitely could have been 14.
One other thing. The only mistake I think they made was making Dean 16 instead of 14. That actor definitely could have been 14.
Honestly, on first watch, I’m somewhat disappointed. That’s probably because I just expected something more. I expected this to play into the ‘lie’ that is currently going on, or perhaps a look at what the revelation of the lie would be. But it really didn’t go there, so I will need to rewatch with a different mindset.
I am not a fan of young Winchesters unless it is in very small doses. This had too much, but that’s OK. It was no surprise to me that Dean has always wanted normal. It’s what he dreamed about with Lisa & Ben and later would give up the hunting life for after he sacrificed his brother for the greater good. That he has never truly admitted that, that he has tried to make Sam feel guilty about wanting it, we’ll that’s just Dean. That he chose family over normal, that’s Dean too.
I guess I wish that, since this season is purported to be about consequences, that there were some here. I guess I happen to enjoyed the pain more than the ‘feels’. I wanted to know, since Dad knew where Dean was ( and I don’t think he’s bad for letting Dean stew) why didn’t he take that opportunity to do a little bonding with Sam? Sam’s recollection of Dad searching for Dean should have caused him more pain once he realized that Dad didn’t want to spend time with Sam.
I know, it’s just one example of how the consequences of a lie, or revelation of a lie, could make the choice to reveal the lie a little more difficult.
So I will rewatch from a different perspective and try not to expect too much this time.
Honestly, on first watch, I’m somewhat disappointed. That’s probably because I just expected something more. I expected this to play into the ‘lie’ that is currently going on, or perhaps a look at what the revelation of the lie would be. But it really didn’t go there, so I will need to rewatch with a different mindset.
I am not a fan of young Winchesters unless it is in very small doses. This had too much, but that’s OK. It was no surprise to me that Dean has always wanted normal. It’s what he dreamed about with Lisa & Ben and later would give up the hunting life for after he sacrificed his brother for the greater good. That he has never truly admitted that, that he has tried to make Sam feel guilty about wanting it, we’ll that’s just Dean. That he chose family over normal, that’s Dean too.
I guess I wish that, since this season is purported to be about consequences, that there were some here. I guess I happen to enjoyed the pain more than the ‘feels’. I wanted to know, since Dad knew where Dean was ( and I don’t think he’s bad for letting Dean stew) why didn’t he take that opportunity to do a little bonding with Sam? Sam’s recollection of Dad searching for Dean should have caused him more pain once he realized that Dad didn’t want to spend time with Sam.
I know, it’s just one example of how the consequences of a lie, or revelation of a lie, could make the choice to reveal the lie a little more difficult.
So I will rewatch from a different perspective and try not to expect too much this time.
I loved this ep. Coming off an OK story last week, this one had everything that I loved about SPN. And the new actor chosen for young Dean was excellent, esp in the final emotional scene. Hard for a young actor to pull off, esp in his first time playing an established character, but nice job. It’s always been all about Sam for Dean and this ep was perfect to give a bit more to that long-running theme.
Only thing that drove me crazy, seemed like there were ALOT more commercials this episode, whew!
Final scene, from flashback to real time…perfect.
Well done, SPN.
I loved this ep. Coming off an OK story last week, this one had everything that I loved about SPN. And the new actor chosen for young Dean was excellent, esp in the final emotional scene. Hard for a young actor to pull off, esp in his first time playing an established character, but nice job. It’s always been all about Sam for Dean and this ep was perfect to give a bit more to that long-running theme.
Only thing that drove me crazy, seemed like there were ALOT more commercials this episode, whew!
Final scene, from flashback to real time…perfect.
Well done, SPN.
You know… like the old saying goes, there are hits, and there are misses and then there are MISSES, and this episode was a colossal miss for me and in sooo many ways! All of the issues of Dean and the sudden and unnecessary “reveal” that he secretly hated the hunting life all along just like Sam are only part of the problem for me. The whole premise of the episode does not make any sense at all. Kids aren’t arrested for stealing bread and peanut butter and prosecuted for that “crime” by being sent to reform school. They just aren’t. So Dean would never have ended up there via normal police procedures. If the police arrested Dean and couldn’t find his father, he’d be sent to CPS and a search would have been made for John. If John had not materialized, leaving Dean on his own, Dean would have been sent to CPS for the remainder of his time as a juvenile, not to reform school for two months. It was insinuated that John was the one to tell the police to let Dean “rot” as some form of punishment. Well, in the good old US of A, parents can’t do that. Parents can’t send their children to reform school on their own volition as reform school is part of the judicial system. And if John had really told the police to let Dean “rot” in jail for his “crime” that would have been considered child abandonment and Dean would have ended up with CPS for the remainder of his time as a juvenile. The whole set up of how he got to stay with Sonny doesn’t contain any logic what-so-ever.
I loathe the “John as monster father cop-out” they are using as the set up of this episode. It cheapens John’s character, and simplifies the complex issues that Dean has regarding his father rather than adding to and enriching it. John was tough, and possibly often harsh but he was always shown to love his sons and I don’t see him ditching Dean as some form of punishment, not someone as paranoid and protective as John was. It goes against everything we’ve been told about the set up of the show and how family was everything to John and his number 1 priority was to keep his boys safe. THIS is the man who made a deal with the very demon he’d spent 20 years of his life chasing to SAVE DEAN? Does not work for me. at. all.
Then this, as one poster put it “egregious emotional retcon of Deans,”… IMO this is an assault on the very fabric of the shows fundamental canon and the tearing down of a major character. Bad Boy’s canon assault makes Taxi Driver look like child’s play by comparison. At least Taxi Driver was dealing with the somewhat inconsequential issue of rogue reapers; this episode is messing with the established canon of a major character. The basic premise of this show has always been two sons of a hunting father, one who supported hunting and the other who wanted out. So, now we find out that Dean never really liked hunting either just like Sam? So, who was that we saw for the first three years of this show? Who was this Dean who loved “The Family Business” and enjoyed the hunting life, or who got excited over the prospect of killing a vampire for the first time? This isn’t about developing Dean as a character, this is about retconing who Dean was established to be prior to the pilot. And where does this leave Sam now? If Dean actually agreed with Sam all along about hating the hunting life and wanting more, wanting normal, then why didn’t he support Sam going off to Stanford? Why accuse Sam of running away, of betraying the family if that’s what Dean secretly wanted all along? Is it because Sam got his shot at normal and he didn’t? I’m sorry, but that makes Dean look like a hypocrite in a way that I cannot accept and makes no sense given the Dean we saw for the first thee seasons of this show.
And where is the show runner in all this? Couldn’t anyone see what fundamental issues there were with this script? Perhaps that’s why it was filmed as 7 rather than 5, because it’s a mess and they needed the extra time to do damage control. I am choosing to pretend that this episode never happened. I will ignore any and all canon bashing contained therein and will never watch it again.
You know… like the old saying goes, there are hits, and there are misses and then there are MISSES, and this episode was a colossal miss for me and in sooo many ways! All of the issues of Dean and the sudden and unnecessary “reveal” that he secretly hated the hunting life all along just like Sam are only part of the problem for me. The whole premise of the episode does not make any sense at all. Kids aren’t arrested for stealing bread and peanut butter and prosecuted for that “crime” by being sent to reform school. They just aren’t. So Dean would never have ended up there via normal police procedures. If the police arrested Dean and couldn’t find his father, he’d be sent to CPS and a search would have been made for John. If John had not materialized, leaving Dean on his own, Dean would have been sent to CPS for the remainder of his time as a juvenile, not to reform school for two months. It was insinuated that John was the one to tell the police to let Dean “rot” as some form of punishment. Well, in the good old US of A, parents can’t do that. Parents can’t send their children to reform school on their own volition as reform school is part of the judicial system. And if John had really told the police to let Dean “rot” in jail for his “crime” that would have been considered child abandonment and Dean would have ended up with CPS for the remainder of his time as a juvenile. The whole set up of how he got to stay with Sonny doesn’t contain any logic what-so-ever.
I loathe the “John as monster father cop-out” they are using as the set up of this episode. It cheapens John’s character, and simplifies the complex issues that Dean has regarding his father rather than adding to and enriching it. John was tough, and possibly often harsh but he was always shown to love his sons and I don’t see him ditching Dean as some form of punishment, not someone as paranoid and protective as John was. It goes against everything we’ve been told about the set up of the show and how family was everything to John and his number 1 priority was to keep his boys safe. THIS is the man who made a deal with the very demon he’d spent 20 years of his life chasing to SAVE DEAN? Does not work for me. at. all.
Then this, as one poster put it “egregious emotional retcon of Deans,”… IMO this is an assault on the very fabric of the shows fundamental canon and the tearing down of a major character. Bad Boy’s canon assault makes Taxi Driver look like child’s play by comparison. At least Taxi Driver was dealing with the somewhat inconsequential issue of rogue reapers; this episode is messing with the established canon of a major character. The basic premise of this show has always been two sons of a hunting father, one who supported hunting and the other who wanted out. So, now we find out that Dean never really liked hunting either just like Sam? So, who was that we saw for the first three years of this show? Who was this Dean who loved “The Family Business” and enjoyed the hunting life, or who got excited over the prospect of killing a vampire for the first time? This isn’t about developing Dean as a character, this is about retconing who Dean was established to be prior to the pilot. And where does this leave Sam now? If Dean actually agreed with Sam all along about hating the hunting life and wanting more, wanting normal, then why didn’t he support Sam going off to Stanford? Why accuse Sam of running away, of betraying the family if that’s what Dean secretly wanted all along? Is it because Sam got his shot at normal and he didn’t? I’m sorry, but that makes Dean look like a hypocrite in a way that I cannot accept and makes no sense given the Dean we saw for the first thee seasons of this show.
And where is the show runner in all this? Couldn’t anyone see what fundamental issues there were with this script? Perhaps that’s why it was filmed as 7 rather than 5, because it’s a mess and they needed the extra time to do damage control. I am choosing to pretend that this episode never happened. I will ignore any and all canon bashing contained therein and will never watch it again.
[quote name=”E”]
Then this, as one poster put it “egregious emotional retcon of Deans,”… IMO this is an assault on the very fabric of the shows fundamental canon and the tearing down of a major character. Bad Boy’s canon assault makes Taxi Driver look like child’s play by comparison. At least Taxi Driver was dealing with the somewhat inconsequential issue of rogue reapers; this episode is messing with the established canon of a major character. The basic premise of this show has always been two sons of a hunting father, one who supported hunting and the other who wanted out. So, now we find out that Dean never really liked hunting either just like Sam? So, who was that we saw for the first three years of this show? Who was this Dean who loved “The Family Business” and enjoyed the hunting life, or who got excited over the prospect of killing a vampire for the first time? This isn’t about developing Dean as a character, this is about retconing who Dean was established to be prior to the pilot. And where does this leave Sam now? If Dean actually agreed with Sam all along about hating the hunting life and wanting more, wanting normal, then why didn’t he support Sam going off to Stanford? Why accuse Sam of running away, of betraying the family if that’s what Dean secretly wanted all along? Is it because Sam got his shot at normal and he didn’t? I’m sorry, but that makes Dean look like a hypocrite in a way that I cannot accept and makes no sense given the Dean we saw for the first thee seasons of this show.
And where is the show runner in all this? Couldn’t anyone see what fundamental issues there were with this script? Perhaps that’s why it was filmed as 7 rather than 5, because it’s a mess and they needed the extra time to do damage control. I am choosing to pretend that this episode never happened. I will ignore any and all canon bashing contained therein and will never watch it again.[/quote]
No canon was destroyed, just like no canon was destroyed in “Taxi Driver.” The fundamental difference between Sam and Dean, Dean had a shot at normal, but seeing Sam and getting that huge smile on his face his priorities finally hit him. Family.
And it’s a good character moment to show that he did have a moment of doubt with the life, it would be ridiculous to think that never happened. And “Where was the Dean from the first 3 years?” I would think Dean had different thoughts on life at the age of 16 than 26 or even 18 – he’s a teenager, teenagers go through mixed emotions on various things.
[quote]
Then this, as one poster put it “egregious emotional retcon of Deans,”… IMO this is an assault on the very fabric of the shows fundamental canon and the tearing down of a major character. Bad Boy’s canon assault makes Taxi Driver look like child’s play by comparison. At least Taxi Driver was dealing with the somewhat inconsequential issue of rogue reapers; this episode is messing with the established canon of a major character. The basic premise of this show has always been two sons of a hunting father, one who supported hunting and the other who wanted out. So, now we find out that Dean never really liked hunting either just like Sam? So, who was that we saw for the first three years of this show? Who was this Dean who loved “The Family Business” and enjoyed the hunting life, or who got excited over the prospect of killing a vampire for the first time? This isn’t about developing Dean as a character, this is about retconing who Dean was established to be prior to the pilot. And where does this leave Sam now? If Dean actually agreed with Sam all along about hating the hunting life and wanting more, wanting normal, then why didn’t he support Sam going off to Stanford? Why accuse Sam of running away, of betraying the family if that’s what Dean secretly wanted all along? Is it because Sam got his shot at normal and he didn’t? I’m sorry, but that makes Dean look like a hypocrite in a way that I cannot accept and makes no sense given the Dean we saw for the first thee seasons of this show.
And where is the show runner in all this? Couldn’t anyone see what fundamental issues there were with this script? Perhaps that’s why it was filmed as 7 rather than 5, because it’s a mess and they needed the extra time to do damage control. I am choosing to pretend that this episode never happened. I will ignore any and all canon bashing contained therein and will never watch it again.[/quote]
No canon was destroyed, just like no canon was destroyed in “Taxi Driver.” The fundamental difference between Sam and Dean, Dean had a shot at normal, but seeing Sam and getting that huge smile on his face his priorities finally hit him. Family.
And it’s a good character moment to show that he did have a moment of doubt with the life, it would be ridiculous to think that never happened. And “Where was the Dean from the first 3 years?” I would think Dean had different thoughts on life at the age of 16 than 26 or even 18 – he’s a teenager, teenagers go through mixed emotions on various things.
I thought it was a good episode. But I agree with some posters that the actor playing Dean could have stayed at age 14, he didn’t look 16 to me. And I don’t think there was any John Winchester bashing either. John being the stalwart army man would have wanted Dean to learn a valuable life lesson, and I’m sure he stayed in the area the whole time Dean was in that home to make sure no beasties got to his eldest. Say what you will of John Winchester, he was always protective of his sons.
Dean’s first kiss, that was sweet. I would so have loved to see him go to that dance! 🙄 And I really liked the MOTW. Ghost mom being protective of her baby. The VFX was awesome.
I thought it was a good episode. But I agree with some posters that the actor playing Dean could have stayed at age 14, he didn’t look 16 to me. And I don’t think there was any John Winchester bashing either. John being the stalwart army man would have wanted Dean to learn a valuable life lesson, and I’m sure he stayed in the area the whole time Dean was in that home to make sure no beasties got to his eldest. Say what you will of John Winchester, he was always protective of his sons.
Dean’s first kiss, that was sweet. I would so have loved to see him go to that dance! 🙄 And I really liked the MOTW. Ghost mom being protective of her baby. The VFX was awesome.
#31 Dean assaulted a police officer which is a little more then just stealing food and from the looks of his wrists put up quite a fight ( I took the werewolf comment as a smartass remark on Dean’s part)
John left the boys on their own all the time and at a lot younger age so I don’t see Dean being at the farm as more dangerous. He was probably safer. Dean wanting a home was brought up even by John himself in the very early years of the show, the episode “Salvation” for example. It’s in season 5 that Dean really comes to terms with the fact that he is and will always be a hunter and that he’s good at it. Dean has actually made a home out of the bunker. Dean never says anything against John in this episode, not as his 16 year old self or as his current self. He actually defends John to Sam.
IMO the point of this episode was to show the potential Dean had to be a different person if he had grown up in a different environment.
#31 Dean assaulted a police officer which is a little more then just stealing food and from the looks of his wrists put up quite a fight ( I took the werewolf comment as a smartass remark on Dean’s part)
John left the boys on their own all the time and at a lot younger age so I don’t see Dean being at the farm as more dangerous. He was probably safer. Dean wanting a home was brought up even by John himself in the very early years of the show, the episode “Salvation” for example. It’s in season 5 that Dean really comes to terms with the fact that he is and will always be a hunter and that he’s good at it. Dean has actually made a home out of the bunker. Dean never says anything against John in this episode, not as his 16 year old self or as his current self. He actually defends John to Sam.
IMO the point of this episode was to show the potential Dean had to be a different person if he had grown up in a different environment.
I don’t think it painted John as a “bad dad” anymore than he had been presented before. In Afternoon Special, X-Mass episode and other comments by Sam and later by Dean( the idol worship was tarnished in one episode when Dean tells Sam that Dad was wrong-can’t recall which one). John was so focused on revenge and having Dean follow orders, that he probably did Dean a favor by allowing Dean to be placed at the farm. It enhanced Dean’s already overly active sense of responsibility. Dad was not all bad- he did the best he could. He often left the boys. Did he hunt when Dean was at the farm? Sammy went to stay with Bobby so he did protect Sam.What I found disingenuous was the young Sammy out the Impala’s window. The age difference btwn the boys has always been about 4 years. If Dean was 16 then the young Sammy was a bit too young looking playing with the model plane. It was nice to see the amulet make it back for continuity. The young actor did a nice job being Dean. It was a turn around to see Sammy being the one to make Dean decide to give up normal. This is not off canon for me: it explains why Dean knows normal is not for him-he even knew that going back to Lisa but wanted to try again for Sam’s last request. It was symmetry for me and makes the brothers more alike than different It was a back to basics episode(no plot movement on the arc except for the is everyone okay with the Catskills trip remark) which worked for me for the reviewer’s reasons above. Add to the list: the Winchesters hunting without shoes:-), when they arrive, the lawn mower scene so screwed with us by keeping it in the horror genre but keeping kids safe in the SPN universe. Dean teaching a kid how to defend himself was retro to Ben and the episode with the wishing well.The episode also reminded me a bit of season 4 kid-ghost who Tess is trying to reap but in reverse-here the kid won’t leave his Mom. So for me this was nowhere near a miss. It was spot on for symmetry and not so off canon that it was not believable. Did anyone notice that since fatherhood, JP’s interaction with younger actors has a deeper layer in his acting? The episode was a type of homage to past episodes, revealed a bit more about why Dean covers up his true self so much-even to Sammy, supports the decision he made to let Zeke invade Sammy, but hey we all have our opinions. But they do have to pick up the arc soon, Maybe there is groundwork being laid for the interaction btwn Sam and Dean in this episode that will appear when Sam finds out what Dean did. Why else would the final dialogue be Sam saying thank you to Dean for always having his back and Dean avoiding the comment with”I don’t know what you mean.” Just sayin’.
I don’t think it painted John as a “bad dad” anymore than he had been presented before. In Afternoon Special, X-Mass episode and other comments by Sam and later by Dean( the idol worship was tarnished in one episode when Dean tells Sam that Dad was wrong-can’t recall which one). John was so focused on revenge and having Dean follow orders, that he probably did Dean a favor by allowing Dean to be placed at the farm. It enhanced Dean’s already overly active sense of responsibility. Dad was not all bad- he did the best he could. He often left the boys. Did he hunt when Dean was at the farm? Sammy went to stay with Bobby so he did protect Sam.What I found disingenuous was the young Sammy out the Impala’s window. The age difference btwn the boys has always been about 4 years. If Dean was 16 then the young Sammy was a bit too young looking playing with the model plane. It was nice to see the amulet make it back for continuity. The young actor did a nice job being Dean. It was a turn around to see Sammy being the one to make Dean decide to give up normal. This is not off canon for me: it explains why Dean knows normal is not for him-he even knew that going back to Lisa but wanted to try again for Sam’s last request. It was symmetry for me and makes the brothers more alike than different It was a back to basics episode(no plot movement on the arc except for the is everyone okay with the Catskills trip remark) which worked for me for the reviewer’s reasons above. Add to the list: the Winchesters hunting without shoes:-), when they arrive, the lawn mower scene so screwed with us by keeping it in the horror genre but keeping kids safe in the SPN universe. Dean teaching a kid how to defend himself was retro to Ben and the episode with the wishing well.The episode also reminded me a bit of season 4 kid-ghost who Tess is trying to reap but in reverse-here the kid won’t leave his Mom. So for me this was nowhere near a miss. It was spot on for symmetry and not so off canon that it was not believable. Did anyone notice that since fatherhood, JP’s interaction with younger actors has a deeper layer in his acting? The episode was a type of homage to past episodes, revealed a bit more about why Dean covers up his true self so much-even to Sammy, supports the decision he made to let Zeke invade Sammy, but hey we all have our opinions. But they do have to pick up the arc soon, Maybe there is groundwork being laid for the interaction btwn Sam and Dean in this episode that will appear when Sam finds out what Dean did. Why else would the final dialogue be Sam saying thank you to Dean for always having his back and Dean avoiding the comment with”I don’t know what you mean.” Just sayin’.
I don’t think it painted John as a “bad dad” anymore than he had been presented before. In Afternoon Special, X-Mass episode and other comments by Sam and later by Dean( the idol worship was tarnished in one episode when Dean tells Sam that Dad was wrong-can’t recall which one). John was so focused on revenge and having Dean follow orders, that he probably did Dean a favor by allowing Dean to be placed at the farm. It enhanced Dean’s already overly active sense of responsibility. Dad was not all bad- he did the best he could. He often left the boys. Did he hunt when Dean was at the farm? Sammy went to stay with Bobby so he did protect Sam.What I found disingenuous was the young Sammy out the Impala’s window. The age difference btwn the boys has always been about 4 years. If Dean was 16 then the young Sammy was a bit too young looking playing with the model plane. It was nice to see the amulet make it back for continuity. The young actor did a nice job being Dean. It was a turn around to see Sammy being the one to make Dean decide to give up normal. This is not off canon for me: it explains why Dean knows normal is not for him-he even knew that going back to Lisa but wanted to try again for Sam’s last request. It was symmetry for me and makes the brothers more alike than different It was a back to basics episode(no plot movement on the arc except for the is everyone okay with the Catskills trip remark) which worked for me for the reviewer’s reasons above. Add to the list: the Winchesters hunting without shoes:-), when they arrive, the lawn mower scene so screwed with us by keeping it in the horror genre but keeping kids safe in the SPN universe. Dean teaching a kid how to defend himself was retro to Ben and the episode with the wishing well.The episode also reminded me a bit of season 4 kid-ghost who Tess is trying to reap but in reverse-here the kid won’t leave his Mom. So for me this was nowhere near a miss. It was spot on for symmetry and not so off canon that it was not believable. Did anyone notice that since fatherhood, JP’s interaction with younger actors has a deeper layer in his acting? The episode was a type of homage to past episodes, revealed a bit more about why Dean covers up his true self so much-even to Sammy, supports the decision he made to let Zeke invade Sammy, but hey we all have our opinions. But they do have to pick up the arc soon, Maybe there is groundwork being laid for the interaction btwn Sam and Dean in this episode that will appear when Sam finds out what Dean did. Why else would the final dialogue be Sam saying thank you to Dean for always having his back and Dean avoiding the comment with”I don’t know what you mean.” Just sayin’.
I don’t think it painted John as a “bad dad” anymore than he had been presented before. In Afternoon Special, X-Mass episode and other comments by Sam and later by Dean( the idol worship was tarnished in one episode when Dean tells Sam that Dad was wrong-can’t recall which one). John was so focused on revenge and having Dean follow orders, that he probably did Dean a favor by allowing Dean to be placed at the farm. It enhanced Dean’s already overly active sense of responsibility. Dad was not all bad- he did the best he could. He often left the boys. Did he hunt when Dean was at the farm? Sammy went to stay with Bobby so he did protect Sam.What I found disingenuous was the young Sammy out the Impala’s window. The age difference btwn the boys has always been about 4 years. If Dean was 16 then the young Sammy was a bit too young looking playing with the model plane. It was nice to see the amulet make it back for continuity. The young actor did a nice job being Dean. It was a turn around to see Sammy being the one to make Dean decide to give up normal. This is not off canon for me: it explains why Dean knows normal is not for him-he even knew that going back to Lisa but wanted to try again for Sam’s last request. It was symmetry for me and makes the brothers more alike than different It was a back to basics episode(no plot movement on the arc except for the is everyone okay with the Catskills trip remark) which worked for me for the reviewer’s reasons above. Add to the list: the Winchesters hunting without shoes:-), when they arrive, the lawn mower scene so screwed with us by keeping it in the horror genre but keeping kids safe in the SPN universe. Dean teaching a kid how to defend himself was retro to Ben and the episode with the wishing well.The episode also reminded me a bit of season 4 kid-ghost who Tess is trying to reap but in reverse-here the kid won’t leave his Mom. So for me this was nowhere near a miss. It was spot on for symmetry and not so off canon that it was not believable. Did anyone notice that since fatherhood, JP’s interaction with younger actors has a deeper layer in his acting? The episode was a type of homage to past episodes, revealed a bit more about why Dean covers up his true self so much-even to Sammy, supports the decision he made to let Zeke invade Sammy, but hey we all have our opinions. But they do have to pick up the arc soon, Maybe there is groundwork being laid for the interaction btwn Sam and Dean in this episode that will appear when Sam finds out what Dean did. Why else would the final dialogue be Sam saying thank you to Dean for always having his back and Dean avoiding the comment with”I don’t know what you mean.” Just sayin’.
I could agree with some of what is being said if I could reconcile Dean wanting normal and the sympathetic picture that was created in this episode to the way Sam has been treated for wanting the exact same thing with very little of the same sympathetic writing.
We are presented with a picture of a 16 yr old Dean willingly wanting to give up the life and all that came with it until he sees Sam who influenced that decision even though he did not know it and Dean goes back . His shot of normal and being a mechanic goes out of the window because of Sam . I thought before this episode aired it was unfair on Sam to show it before he finds out about Zeke and I still do after watching it .
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I could agree with some of what is being said if I could reconcile Dean wanting normal and the sympathetic picture that was created in this episode to the way Sam has been treated for wanting the exact same thing with very little of the same sympathetic writing.
We are presented with a picture of a 16 yr old Dean willingly wanting to give up the life and all that came with it until he sees Sam who influenced that decision even though he did not know it and Dean goes back . His shot of normal and being a mechanic goes out of the window because of Sam . I thought before this episode aired it was unfair on Sam to show it before he finds out about Zeke and I still do after watching it .
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it’s funny cuz i thought the only part that went against canon was when dean told sam about dad hunting the rugaru when they were kids, since in metamorphosis, when travis told dean they were dealing with a rugaru, dean’s reply was…a rugaru, is that made up? it sounds made up. other than that i thought the episode tied in quite nicely with the theme of this season and with dean pretty much since the start.
the recap of the then and now pretty much tied into dean’s current and past behavior regarding hunting, family and above all sam. after watching dean give up going to the dance and staying at the farm, it was clear to me that his statement to sam in sacrifice about nothing past or present coming before sam meant more than just cas and benny.
it’s always been about sam for dean and not just because his father drilled into him that he was to look after his little brother. dean loves his brother, but more than that, he needs him as well. sam gave dean the one thing that his father never could or did. sam gives/gave dean worth and value. dean matters to sam in a way that he doesn’t matter to anyone else. sam’s love is unconditional. i don’t think i can say the same for any other character. sam has admitted to hating/resenting his father for a long time. it wasn’t until his recent adulthood, back in s5 when sam really understood his dad. sam looked to dean. he relied on dean. dean was his role model, his caretaker, his mom, his dad, his protector. dean knows sam loves him, but it’s more than that, sam provides dean with purpose, value and worth. john winchester loved his children, but he didn’t show them how worthy they are. how valuable they are. how important they are. i say this because dean had admitted that he knew the yed was in his father because john told dean he was proud of him. it was so heartbreaking. “Proud”, obviously a word dean hasn’t heard from his dad, being that he recognized it wasn’t john the minute he said he was proud of him. 🙁
dean’s comment to timmy “to do for yourself even if it hurts the one you love.” not only ties into dean’s actions this season, but in every season since the pilot. selling his soul to bring sam back, having an angel possess sam to keep him alive, these are all actions that are both selfless and selfish. dean can’t live without sam. he needs him as much as sam needs dean. he’s his purpose. sam defines part of what dean is. there ain’t no me if there aint no you. that is a true statement for dean winchester. so he sells his soul knowing it’ll hurt his brother, but sam is alive and that’s all that matters. he has zeke possess sam knowing sam wouldn’t want that. but it keeps sam alive, so he’s ok with hurting him. he does for himself even though he knows it’ll hurt others. he does it out of love. he does it out of need. selfish and selfless, but’s that’s what makes him human. and it makes you sympathize, understand and forgive….at least sam does. and that’s the thing, dean knows that sam will always forgive. he’ll always be there. he’s his touchstone much the same way dean is to sam.
it’s funny cuz i thought the only part that went against canon was when dean told sam about dad hunting the rugaru when they were kids, since in metamorphosis, when travis told dean they were dealing with a rugaru, dean’s reply was…a rugaru, is that made up? it sounds made up. other than that i thought the episode tied in quite nicely with the theme of this season and with dean pretty much since the start.
the recap of the then and now pretty much tied into dean’s current and past behavior regarding hunting, family and above all sam. after watching dean give up going to the dance and staying at the farm, it was clear to me that his statement to sam in sacrifice about nothing past or present coming before sam meant more than just cas and benny.
it’s always been about sam for dean and not just because his father drilled into him that he was to look after his little brother. dean loves his brother, but more than that, he needs him as well. sam gave dean the one thing that his father never could or did. sam gives/gave dean worth and value. dean matters to sam in a way that he doesn’t matter to anyone else. sam’s love is unconditional. i don’t think i can say the same for any other character. sam has admitted to hating/resenting his father for a long time. it wasn’t until his recent adulthood, back in s5 when sam really understood his dad. sam looked to dean. he relied on dean. dean was his role model, his caretaker, his mom, his dad, his protector. dean knows sam loves him, but it’s more than that, sam provides dean with purpose, value and worth. john winchester loved his children, but he didn’t show them how worthy they are. how valuable they are. how important they are. i say this because dean had admitted that he knew the yed was in his father because john told dean he was proud of him. it was so heartbreaking. “Proud”, obviously a word dean hasn’t heard from his dad, being that he recognized it wasn’t john the minute he said he was proud of him. 🙁
dean’s comment to timmy “to do for yourself even if it hurts the one you love.” not only ties into dean’s actions this season, but in every season since the pilot. selling his soul to bring sam back, having an angel possess sam to keep him alive, these are all actions that are both selfless and selfish. dean can’t live without sam. he needs him as much as sam needs dean. he’s his purpose. sam defines part of what dean is. there ain’t no me if there aint no you. that is a true statement for dean winchester. so he sells his soul knowing it’ll hurt his brother, but sam is alive and that’s all that matters. he has zeke possess sam knowing sam wouldn’t want that. but it keeps sam alive, so he’s ok with hurting him. he does for himself even though he knows it’ll hurt others. he does it out of love. he does it out of need. selfish and selfless, but’s that’s what makes him human. and it makes you sympathize, understand and forgive….at least sam does. and that’s the thing, dean knows that sam will always forgive. he’ll always be there. he’s his touchstone much the same way dean is to sam.
watching the ep, i did not get the impression that john was a heartless sob. an sob, but not a heartless one. 😉 they were on a job upstate right, so i got the feeling john knew the area pretty well. the amount of time dean stayed at the farm. two months? that’s a hell of a long job don’t you think? i can’t help but wonder if john left dean there on purpose..giving dean a much deserved vacation. i really don’t believe that john was willing to punish dean for two months. seems a bit extreme and not very in character. two weeks yes, but not two months. personally i think john stopped by and saw that dean was happy and let him stay. i also think it’s possible that john was on the demon trail and didn’t want the boys around.
as for dean’s attitude at age 16. i think it’s perfectly natural for dean to want the same thing sam had always talked of having ever since he was a little kid. sam and dean lived the same life, so while dean may have accepted their life before sam did, it doesn’t mean that dean privately, in his deepest darkest place where noone else sees, wanted to be just a regular kid. i think the responsibility was what weighed heavy on him at that age, not so much the hunting life. it was the role his father commanded of him. the role of an adult, without ever really getting to be a kid. dean admitted to gordon that at age 12 i think it was, after they killed something, dean admitted to embracing the life. he accepted at a young age this was what/who he was, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t want to experience normal at some point in his life, most likely during his childhood. especially given the vast amount of responsibility his father placed on him at such a young age. so for a couple of months as a teen, he got to be that normal kid. and he liked it. for a few months he was only responsible for himself and he shared feelings of normalcy with his first girl crush, and sonny was kind and proud of dean..two things john may have felt for his sons but didn’t openly tell them. for awhile dean was on vacation and he enjoyed it. when it was time to go, although he wanted to end that vacation going to the school dance with the prettiest girl in town, he looked out that window and that sad look on his face became a smile when he saw sam. vacation over, time to go home. sam is home. once he left that farmhouse, that’s when i think he accepted with an open heart his life as a hunter. he accepted it and soon came to truly love it. he loved being a hero. he loved saving people. he loves to matter. who doesn’t want to matter to someone?
i thought his time at the farm explained alot of why dean resented sam going to college. dean admitted to sam in skin, that he was jealous cuz he had friends. that he had to stay home. he didn’t you know. he didn’t have to stay. he wanted to. he just wanted sam to love it the same way he did. dean also admitted to sam about being jealous that sam could walk away and he couldn’t. i think that’s why dean wants sam to have normal, but when he thinks sam is living normal he gets angry at him. it’s complicated, but i think i get it.
all in all i liked the ep. i enjoyed getting to understand dean better. loved sam at the end, thanking dean, very much like he did in salvation. this ep was very reminiscent of s1. just another reason why sam is so important to dean, sam is really one of the only people who ever acknowledged all dean has done and thanked him for it. appreciation goes a long way. i have to rewatch though because i totally didn’t see the amulet. i missed it. 😀 i guess i can make the sacrifice. 😆
watching the ep, i did not get the impression that john was a heartless sob. an sob, but not a heartless one. 😉 they were on a job upstate right, so i got the feeling john knew the area pretty well. the amount of time dean stayed at the farm. two months? that’s a hell of a long job don’t you think? i can’t help but wonder if john left dean there on purpose..giving dean a much deserved vacation. i really don’t believe that john was willing to punish dean for two months. seems a bit extreme and not very in character. two weeks yes, but not two months. personally i think john stopped by and saw that dean was happy and let him stay. i also think it’s possible that john was on the demon trail and didn’t want the boys around.
as for dean’s attitude at age 16. i think it’s perfectly natural for dean to want the same thing sam had always talked of having ever since he was a little kid. sam and dean lived the same life, so while dean may have accepted their life before sam did, it doesn’t mean that dean privately, in his deepest darkest place where noone else sees, wanted to be just a regular kid. i think the responsibility was what weighed heavy on him at that age, not so much the hunting life. it was the role his father commanded of him. the role of an adult, without ever really getting to be a kid. dean admitted to gordon that at age 12 i think it was, after they killed something, dean admitted to embracing the life. he accepted at a young age this was what/who he was, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t want to experience normal at some point in his life, most likely during his childhood. especially given the vast amount of responsibility his father placed on him at such a young age. so for a couple of months as a teen, he got to be that normal kid. and he liked it. for a few months he was only responsible for himself and he shared feelings of normalcy with his first girl crush, and sonny was kind and proud of dean..two things john may have felt for his sons but didn’t openly tell them. for awhile dean was on vacation and he enjoyed it. when it was time to go, although he wanted to end that vacation going to the school dance with the prettiest girl in town, he looked out that window and that sad look on his face became a smile when he saw sam. vacation over, time to go home. sam is home. once he left that farmhouse, that’s when i think he accepted with an open heart his life as a hunter. he accepted it and soon came to truly love it. he loved being a hero. he loved saving people. he loves to matter. who doesn’t want to matter to someone?
i thought his time at the farm explained alot of why dean resented sam going to college. dean admitted to sam in skin, that he was jealous cuz he had friends. that he had to stay home. he didn’t you know. he didn’t have to stay. he wanted to. he just wanted sam to love it the same way he did. dean also admitted to sam about being jealous that sam could walk away and he couldn’t. i think that’s why dean wants sam to have normal, but when he thinks sam is living normal he gets angry at him. it’s complicated, but i think i get it.
all in all i liked the ep. i enjoyed getting to understand dean better. loved sam at the end, thanking dean, very much like he did in salvation. this ep was very reminiscent of s1. just another reason why sam is so important to dean, sam is really one of the only people who ever acknowledged all dean has done and thanked him for it. appreciation goes a long way. i have to rewatch though because i totally didn’t see the amulet. i missed it. 😀 i guess i can make the sacrifice. 😆
It is a good episode, but It was deppressive.
For me, John was a bad father since the beginning. We have had him:
-In something wicked, he used his sons like bait, he gave a useless weapon to Dean and after he yelled him when it was out of control.
-He didn’t come home from Christmas, neither thanksgiving or 4 july
-A son who visited him when he remembered that he had one. If I was the mother I would have closed the door in his face. Well, he didn’t remember Sam and Dean, and they lived with him, less the other one. Because in all flashbacks, we only watched him left the boys.
-More yell Dean for something that he would have to be doing it.
-Yell Bobby for playing baseball with Dean.
-Four school at december… here it meant one move per month. That it had to be fantastic at first with a baby and a traumatic little child
-And now he doesn’t care to come from Dean and he left Sam with Bobby. Sam was 12 not 5, he would be ok for a few hours alone. And he didn’t mention why he gamble in first place. That even if John knew that, wich it wasn’t clear. I didn’t see Dean telling that to the cop.
My conclussion he only cared for hunting and Dean had to care for Sam, because he won’t be the one to did it, but god forbided Dean to fail.
I don’t doubt that he loved the boys, but that didn’t make up.
It is a good episode, but It was deppressive.
For me, John was a bad father since the beginning. We have had him:
-In something wicked, he used his sons like bait, he gave a useless weapon to Dean and after he yelled him when it was out of control.
-He didn’t come home from Christmas, neither thanksgiving or 4 july
-A son who visited him when he remembered that he had one. If I was the mother I would have closed the door in his face. Well, he didn’t remember Sam and Dean, and they lived with him, less the other one. Because in all flashbacks, we only watched him left the boys.
-More yell Dean for something that he would have to be doing it.
-Yell Bobby for playing baseball with Dean.
-Four school at december… here it meant one move per month. That it had to be fantastic at first with a baby and a traumatic little child
-And now he doesn’t care to come from Dean and he left Sam with Bobby. Sam was 12 not 5, he would be ok for a few hours alone. And he didn’t mention why he gamble in first place. That even if John knew that, wich it wasn’t clear. I didn’t see Dean telling that to the cop.
My conclussion he only cared for hunting and Dean had to care for Sam, because he won’t be the one to did it, but god forbided Dean to fail.
I don’t doubt that he loved the boys, but that didn’t make up.
I enjoyed this one; good old fashion ghost story with an early season vibe. It would have played better as the 5th episode of the season, as it was initially supposed to. Hope they start moving the main story lines forward – they are unfolding very slowly this season. They’re going heavy on the brotherly “feels” so far this year, just setting up for the big mid season explosion when Sam finds out.
There was absolutely no break in canon on the ghost not being tied to an object. In 2.16 Road Kill, Molly McNamara stayed behind and came back every year on the anniversary of her death, even though she had been cremated.
As far as John’s parenting skills, both Sam and Dean have acknowledged that John did the best he could and long ago made peace with that. Now, the fact that his “best” stunk is another matter. I thought John leaving Dean there was much in character; he was a Marine and a disciplinarian after all and was probably more pissed that Dean lost the food money and beat up the cop too (that part, while I don’t condone that behavior, was kind of funny).
And everyone’s right, the kid that played young Dean could have easily passed for 14/15 years old.
I enjoyed this one; good old fashion ghost story with an early season vibe. It would have played better as the 5th episode of the season, as it was initially supposed to. Hope they start moving the main story lines forward – they are unfolding very slowly this season. They’re going heavy on the brotherly “feels” so far this year, just setting up for the big mid season explosion when Sam finds out.
There was absolutely no break in canon on the ghost not being tied to an object. In 2.16 Road Kill, Molly McNamara stayed behind and came back every year on the anniversary of her death, even though she had been cremated.
As far as John’s parenting skills, both Sam and Dean have acknowledged that John did the best he could and long ago made peace with that. Now, the fact that his “best” stunk is another matter. I thought John leaving Dean there was much in character; he was a Marine and a disciplinarian after all and was probably more pissed that Dean lost the food money and beat up the cop too (that part, while I don’t condone that behavior, was kind of funny).
And everyone’s right, the kid that played young Dean could have easily passed for 14/15 years old.
[quote name=”Prix68″]One other thing. The only mistake I think they made was making Dean 16 instead of 14. That actor definitely could have been 14.[/quote]
I agree! It won’t matter if the actor looked older. There are boys who look older than their actual age due to the hard life that they have. Dean’s childhood had definitely been stripped since he was four. He wasn’t a boy anymore. Even at 14 he bore the burden of taking care a little brother and sometimes his father. Still 14 but looked like the wight of the world was on his shoulder. It’s a reasonable explanation.
They didn’t have to change the script to 16.
[quote]One other thing. The only mistake I think they made was making Dean 16 instead of 14. That actor definitely could have been 14.[/quote]
I agree! It won’t matter if the actor looked older. There are boys who look older than their actual age due to the hard life that they have. Dean’s childhood had definitely been stripped since he was four. He wasn’t a boy anymore. Even at 14 he bore the burden of taking care a little brother and sometimes his father. Still 14 but looked like the wight of the world was on his shoulder. It’s a reasonable explanation.
They didn’t have to change the script to 16.
[quote name=”Mick”][quote name=”E”]
Then this, as one poster put it “egregious emotional retcon of Deans,”… IMO this is an assault on the very fabric of the shows fundamental canon and the tearing down of a major character. Bad Boy’s canon assault makes Taxi Driver look like child’s play by comparison. At least Taxi Driver was dealing with the somewhat inconsequential issue of rogue reapers; this episode is messing with the established canon of a major character. The basic premise of this show has always been two sons of a hunting father, one who supported hunting and the other who wanted out. So, now we find out that Dean never really liked hunting either just like Sam? So, who was that we saw for the first three years of this show? Who was this Dean who loved “The Family Business” and enjoyed the hunting life, or who got excited over the prospect of killing a vampire for the first time? This isn’t about developing Dean as a character, this is about retconing who Dean was established to be prior to the pilot. And where does this leave Sam now? If Dean actually agreed with Sam all along about hating the hunting life and wanting more, wanting normal, then why didn’t he support Sam going off to Stanford? Why accuse Sam of running away, of betraying the family if that’s what Dean secretly wanted all along? Is it because Sam got his shot at normal and he didn’t? I’m sorry, but that makes Dean look like a hypocrite in a way that I cannot accept and makes no sense given the Dean we saw for the first thee seasons of this show.
And where is the show runner in all this? Couldn’t anyone see what fundamental issues there were with this script? Perhaps that’s why it was filmed as 7 rather than 5, because it’s a mess and they needed the extra time to do damage control. I am choosing to pretend that this episode never happened. I will ignore any and all canon bashing contained therein and will never watch it again.[/quote]
No canon was destroyed, just like no canon was destroyed in “Taxi Driver.” The fundamental difference between Sam and Dean, Dean had a shot at normal, but seeing Sam and getting that huge smile on his face his priorities finally hit him. Family.
And it’s a good character moment to show that he did have a moment of doubt with the life, it would be ridiculous to think that never happened. And “Where was the Dean from the first 3 years?” I would think Dean had different thoughts on life at the age of 16 than 26 or even 18 – he’s a teenager, teenagers go through mixed emotions on various things.[/quote]
I definitely agree with Mick here. That last scene tells it all. “At 16 we don’t know everything we though we know” Teenage age are the age of self searching. Dean will be a robot if he didn’t experience that at any stage of his life. Humans have conflicting emotions and Dean had lots of conflicting emotions as a part of his self searching.
He’d told Gordon that he decided to embrace the life after he hunted a werewolf down at 16. If this script is written with a 14 years old Dean in mind then this definitely happened way before that.
[quote][quote]
Then this, as one poster put it “egregious emotional retcon of Deans,”… IMO this is an assault on the very fabric of the shows fundamental canon and the tearing down of a major character. Bad Boy’s canon assault makes Taxi Driver look like child’s play by comparison. At least Taxi Driver was dealing with the somewhat inconsequential issue of rogue reapers; this episode is messing with the established canon of a major character. The basic premise of this show has always been two sons of a hunting father, one who supported hunting and the other who wanted out. So, now we find out that Dean never really liked hunting either just like Sam? So, who was that we saw for the first three years of this show? Who was this Dean who loved “The Family Business” and enjoyed the hunting life, or who got excited over the prospect of killing a vampire for the first time? This isn’t about developing Dean as a character, this is about retconing who Dean was established to be prior to the pilot. And where does this leave Sam now? If Dean actually agreed with Sam all along about hating the hunting life and wanting more, wanting normal, then why didn’t he support Sam going off to Stanford? Why accuse Sam of running away, of betraying the family if that’s what Dean secretly wanted all along? Is it because Sam got his shot at normal and he didn’t? I’m sorry, but that makes Dean look like a hypocrite in a way that I cannot accept and makes no sense given the Dean we saw for the first thee seasons of this show.
And where is the show runner in all this? Couldn’t anyone see what fundamental issues there were with this script? Perhaps that’s why it was filmed as 7 rather than 5, because it’s a mess and they needed the extra time to do damage control. I am choosing to pretend that this episode never happened. I will ignore any and all canon bashing contained therein and will never watch it again.[/quote]
No canon was destroyed, just like no canon was destroyed in “Taxi Driver.” The fundamental difference between Sam and Dean, Dean had a shot at normal, but seeing Sam and getting that huge smile on his face his priorities finally hit him. Family.
And it’s a good character moment to show that he did have a moment of doubt with the life, it would be ridiculous to think that never happened. And “Where was the Dean from the first 3 years?” I would think Dean had different thoughts on life at the age of 16 than 26 or even 18 – he’s a teenager, teenagers go through mixed emotions on various things.[/quote]
I definitely agree with Mick here. That last scene tells it all. “At 16 we don’t know everything we though we know” Teenage age are the age of self searching. Dean will be a robot if he didn’t experience that at any stage of his life. Humans have conflicting emotions and Dean had lots of conflicting emotions as a part of his self searching.
He’d told Gordon that he decided to embrace the life after he hunted a werewolf down at 16. If this script is written with a 14 years old Dean in mind then this definitely happened way before that.
[quote name=”nappi815″]
dean’s comment to timmy “to do for yourself even if it hurts the one you love.” not only ties into dean’s actions this season, but in every season since the pilot. selling his soul to bring sam back, having an angel possess sam to keep him alive, these are all actions that are both selfless and selfish. dean can’t live without sam. he needs him as much as sam needs dean. he’s his purpose. sam defines part of what dean is. there ain’t no me if there aint no you. that is a true statement for dean winchester. so he sells his soul knowing it’ll hurt his brother, but sam is alive and that’s all that matters. he has zeke possess sam knowing sam wouldn’t want that. but it keeps sam alive, so he’s ok with hurting him. he does for himself even though he knows it’ll hurt others. he does it out of love. he does it out of need. selfish and selfless, but’s that’s what makes him human. and it makes you sympathize, understand and forgive….at least sam does. and that’s the thing, dean knows that sam will always forgive. he’ll always be there. he’s his touchstone much the same way dean is to sam.[/quote]
You spoke true! I just wish that Sam got written with the same care as this. I have my head canon about Sam’s character but it’ll be nice to see it as real canon.
[quote]
dean’s comment to timmy “to do for yourself even if it hurts the one you love.” not only ties into dean’s actions this season, but in every season since the pilot. selling his soul to bring sam back, having an angel possess sam to keep him alive, these are all actions that are both selfless and selfish. dean can’t live without sam. he needs him as much as sam needs dean. he’s his purpose. sam defines part of what dean is. there ain’t no me if there aint no you. that is a true statement for dean winchester. so he sells his soul knowing it’ll hurt his brother, but sam is alive and that’s all that matters. he has zeke possess sam knowing sam wouldn’t want that. but it keeps sam alive, so he’s ok with hurting him. he does for himself even though he knows it’ll hurt others. he does it out of love. he does it out of need. selfish and selfless, but’s that’s what makes him human. and it makes you sympathize, understand and forgive….at least sam does. and that’s the thing, dean knows that sam will always forgive. he’ll always be there. he’s his touchstone much the same way dean is to sam.[/quote]
You spoke true! I just wish that Sam got written with the same care as this. I have my head canon about Sam’s character but it’ll be nice to see it as real canon.
Kaj!!! Nice catch about Gordon! It helps explain why Dean needed to be 16.
Silly little thing… but this is a “spec” topic… Any chance I’m supposed to interpret YoungSammy’s toy as “hunter-speak” or at least symbolism? Is it saying… “Gotta jet!” perhaps?
Zeke’s a blue-eyed angel. Hmmm… that sounds like MC/Cas, huh? But I digress. Should I be connecting Sam, generically with a fighter pilot, or maybe more specifically a Flying Blue Angel?
1) Hurleyville – Why that name? That’s been niggling in the back of my brain and two ideas have finally sprung to mind. The 1st: with all this talk about love and the “feels” of this episode and the show having a lot of… testosterone… maybe it’s a hidden macho disavowment… All this touchy-feely crap makes the team want to hurl {snicker}. After I came here to type that up, the notion came to me that it might be a reference to hurly-burly.
2) On one of the many topics here about [i]Bad Boys[/i] there was discussion of the language used by Dean regarding how he wound up at Sonny’s. I’m halfway rewatching the episode while doing chores. And as I thought I remembered, Dean actually did say he expected “you’d” get hungry, meaning Sam. Dad left the money for “us” (both boys) but Dean figured Sam would get hungry. That’s what I thought I remembered, and the slight oddity of that turn of phrase was compounded for me when Sonny offered Dean food and Dean refused. Definitely spec-worthy {hee}. Especially so when you combine it with the end of the previous episode… how dealing with the angels shouldn’t be Castiel’s problem because he’s not an angel anymore. Sam and Dean should handle it. Really? Yeah, yeah… Cas is still getting used to being human. On the other hand, he seemed to be doing a good job… way better than Ephraim. He killed Ephraim with every bit the level of teamwork that Sam might have shown if Dean slid a blade [i]his[/i] way. So it’s not clear why Cas’s human status should distinguish him from Sam and Dean {grin}.
3) “The barn’s a no-fly zone during hide and go seek”? And then Sammy’s playing with a jet at the end of the episode? Why do I feel like there’s …something… here? Is Sammy signaling the end of the no-fly zone – and thus the end of hide and seek – at least for now?
4) Why does Dean’s phone vibration setting sound like someone snoring? Specable.
5) “Like we’re such angels” Also specable {hee}.
6) “with a meat cleaver”… Or should that be homonymed to “meet Cleaver” like Beaver Cleaver? Specable.
So many specable tidbits – so little time!
BTW – I should add that my #3 above is inducing a pouty face. It would fit with a line of spec I had about Sam’s wacky-math description of the amount of sleep he’d been getting. Too bad my equivalent of “puppy dog eyes” doesn’t hold the same power as Sam’s (LOL). How is 3 episodes out of 23 fair? OK, on the other hand, as a percentage of the fanbase… would that mean 13% of the fanbase and I share the same interests? Wow… maybe that’s even a little higher than I would have thought based on internet chatter. I guess the others are grownups who know silence is golden. {sheepish grin}
I suppose what really bothers me, though, is my interpretation that we’d get 3 straight and 20 of “the rest.” That sounds like I’ll have no more for the entire rest of the season. Wait… maybe it was 20 since the last one? Ooooh… I like that interpretation better! I’ll have to do some more SPN math today {grin}.
PS – Editing to add… To be honest, I wasn’t trying to be clever. But thinking about Dean’s cell phone it occurs to me it might look that way. Three straight nights for hunters… then the rest of the season (LMAO).
PPS – While on the subject of language usage… What wording did Dean use when he made the preemptive strike on Sam’s possible John-criticism? My recollection was that it went something like: “I know how you think about the old man.” If I’m correct in all or in part, two things strike me as unnatural here… Dean’s using the word “think” and “the old man.” How often has Dean referred to John as “the old man” as opposed to “Dad”? Strip away the episode’s context, and the scenario that comes to my mind from the words “I know how you think about [him]” is quite different from the context in the episode. Thus, the line seems specable to me.
[quote name=”racestaffer”]
2) On one of the many topics here about [i]Bad Boys[/i] there was discussion of the language used by Dean regarding how he wound up at Sonny’s. I’m halfway rewatching the episode while doing chores. And as I thought I remembered, Dean actually did say he expected “you’d” get hungry, meaning Sam. Dad left the money for “us” (both boys) but Dean figured Sam would get hungry. That’s what I thought I remembered, and the slight oddity of that turn of phrase was compounded for me when Sonny offered Dean food and Dean refused. Definitely spec-worthy {hee}. Especially so when you combine it with the end of the previous episode… how dealing with the angels shouldn’t be Castiel’s problem because he’s not an angel anymore. Sam and Dean should handle it. Really? Yeah, yeah… Cas is still getting used to being human. On the other hand, he seemed to be doing a good job… way better than Ephraim. He killed Ephraim with every bit the level of teamwork that Sam might have shown if Dean slid a blade [i]his[/i] way. So it’s not clear why Cas’s human status should distinguish him from Sam and Dean {grin}.[/quote]
So you are saying you think Dean is an angel and has been since before the pilot? Well that would explain a few things for sure :-*
Here is one better. Which supernatural being has been missing since the beginning of the show? Who have the angels been trying to locate or fight for?
have you noticed how the angels congregate to Dean? Cas and Anna love him, Uriel, Zachariah, Michael, Rafael want to torture him. Balthazar and Gabriel want to play games with him. And don’t even get me started on what Ezekiel will do for Dean whether asked to (Charlie) or not (Cas) or because he knows what Dean wants (Sam). They all want to be near him but they don’t know why.
Why was Dean never Michael’s host? Maybe he isn’t meant to be.
And finally the amulet – it didn’t heat up in the presence of Chuck. But maybe it never gets more than skin temperature? So if someone was wearing it the whole time it could be ‘warm in the presence of God’ wouldn’t it?
So if any of this is true then what would the purpose of all this be? Is it a way of hiding? Maybe God is hiding from Death? Or of discovering what it is like to be just a human? Does any event that Dean instigated (which we always assumed to be the results of events out of his control) have an extra layer of predetermination to the fallout that has happened to everyone else? Maybe God needed to get the apocalypse started so he could see how well he has trained his two sons Michael and Lucifer? Their proof of their total devotion to him by destroying the world.
It would be pretty ironic considering the theory that Dean never gets the mytharc if, after the show finishes, it turned out that Dean WAS the overriding mytharc of the entire series 8)
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2) On one of the many topics here about [i]Bad Boys[/i] there was discussion of the language used by Dean regarding how he wound up at Sonny’s. I’m halfway rewatching the episode while doing chores. And as I thought I remembered, Dean actually did say he expected “you’d” get hungry, meaning Sam. Dad left the money for “us” (both boys) but Dean figured Sam would get hungry. That’s what I thought I remembered, and the slight oddity of that turn of phrase was compounded for me when Sonny offered Dean food and Dean refused. Definitely spec-worthy {hee}. Especially so when you combine it with the end of the previous episode… how dealing with the angels shouldn’t be Castiel’s problem because he’s not an angel anymore. Sam and Dean should handle it. Really? Yeah, yeah… Cas is still getting used to being human. On the other hand, he seemed to be doing a good job… way better than Ephraim. He killed Ephraim with every bit the level of teamwork that Sam might have shown if Dean slid a blade [i]his[/i] way. So it’s not clear why Cas’s human status should distinguish him from Sam and Dean {grin}.[/quote]
So you are saying you think Dean is an angel and has been since before the pilot? Well that would explain a few things for sure :-*
Here is one better. Which supernatural being has been missing since the beginning of the show? Who have the angels been trying to locate or fight for?
have you noticed how the angels congregate to Dean? Cas and Anna love him, Uriel, Zachariah, Michael, Rafael want to torture him. Balthazar and Gabriel want to play games with him. And don’t even get me started on what Ezekiel will do for Dean whether asked to (Charlie) or not (Cas) or because he knows what Dean wants (Sam). They all want to be near him but they don’t know why.
Why was Dean never Michael’s host? Maybe he isn’t meant to be.
And finally the amulet – it didn’t heat up in the presence of Chuck. But maybe it never gets more than skin temperature? So if someone was wearing it the whole time it could be ‘warm in the presence of God’ wouldn’t it?
So if any of this is true then what would the purpose of all this be? Is it a way of hiding? Maybe God is hiding from Death? Or of discovering what it is like to be just a human? Does any event that Dean instigated (which we always assumed to be the results of events out of his control) have an extra layer of predetermination to the fallout that has happened to everyone else? Maybe God needed to get the apocalypse started so he could see how well he has trained his two sons Michael and Lucifer? Their proof of their total devotion to him by destroying the world.
It would be pretty ironic considering the theory that Dean never gets the mytharc if, after the show finishes, it turned out that Dean WAS the overriding mytharc of the entire series 8)
Thank-you for mentioning the amulet, which has resurfaced albeit in flashback. If we take its God-finding power to be real, God presumably was absent until Prince Charming ditched it. Since then, God may have been around without us knowing. Was that Dean’s intent all along or was it perhaps Castiel’s intent? Cas was all gung-ho about the mission in Heaven, which ultimately disillusioned Dean about God and family (including Sam). Then add Cas’s dejection when handing Dean the amulet back – I could imagine Cas having the goal of maneuvering Dean into ditching the amulet. But Cas could have just kept the amulet – So perhaps it also had to be Dean’s choice… like YoungDean, here, being allowed to choose between Sonny and the family business.
And it’s funny that you’re mentioning all the angels. I was thinking about them too on the drive into work. My thoughts actually evolved from what “big bads” have had the “honor” of more than one episode. This proceeded to thoughts on how to classify the angels. Trickster… bad guy? Good guy? Other? Zach… Uriel. In order of how un/sympathetic they’ve been portrayed, I’d be inclined to place Raphael at the top of the negative scale (which seems weird since he’s the archangel of healing outside SPN) – Did we ever see anything positive about him? Cas and Anna seem the most sympathetic, probably because they are closest to humanity. In the middle area, I guess I’d place Zach and Uriel just below Raphael and Gabester just below them, and just above Anna and Cas. And all this has me reaching back to the angelic hierarchy I’ve crossed paths with a couple times over the SPN years. Is it kabbalah-istic? With a hole to be filled or not… And all Dean got for stopping the apocalypse was his brother… in a hole. Another line that I’ve always felt meant something other than what the context would suggest. Too unnatural for the speaker and the situation.
I think I’m more inclined to do a double-take when the characters say something that sounds off than when they do something that seems off. People can surprise you. None of us would ever feel a sense of betrayal if we were perfect at predicting other people’s behavior. We often don’t have enough pieces of the puzzle to make good predictions. But writers need to know their characters… how they speak… their “voice”. Now, I suppose TV writers may have more wiggle room and that muscle may atrophy as a result. They can rely on the actors to convince us that the characters would really say “that” and say it “that way”. Book authors don’t have that luxury. But I doubt the Team relies heavily on the actors to supply “the voice”. So when the voice strays from what I expect… that makes me wonder…
so dean is an angel and I think Crowley is the LORD
hows that working out for us…… 😡
so dean is an angel and I think Crowley is the LORD
hows that working out for us…… 😡