Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 9×06 “Heaven Can’t Wait”
If you have not seen tonight’s episode then spoilers are below…be warned.
Brief Recap: This episode was the maiden voyage for new Supernatural writer Robert Berens. And KUDOS to you, Mr. Berens! This was fantastic and good and fantastic and all kinds of superlatives that I reserve for very few. Welcome to our family! Stay and write Castiel forever! (fangirl squeeing ends)
The first part of the episode reveals a suicidal man who is killed by an angel. We will later learn why. The episode was split into two separate but parallel narratives. The bunker side of the story revolved around Sam and Kevin trying to coerce Crowley into helping them translate the symbols Kevin uncovered. The beginning of the episode plays with Dean’s resistance to research and that leads into the other main story, the Ephraim murders. After talking to Cas, Dean chooses to leave and help his friend rather than translate obscure languages. Surprise, surprise! The Dean/Cas story centers on the case of the Ephraim Pink Murders! (Side note: A lot of pink and blue in this episode – babies, gender, etc.) Cas is a sales associate at a gas and sip. At this point I’m gonna say that I absolutely LOVED Castiel (or Steve) in this episode. I was glad to see him resenting Dean and being honest about feeling abandoned. He had every right to feel that way. Cas’s work ethic is so Castiel too. He does his work as he is supposed to. There was a great sense of continuity in the episode from HumanCas to Kevin’s tattoo.
The Ephraim murders reveal another part of the Supernatural mythology – Rit Zien, who take away suffering by turning you into insulation dust if they can’t heal you. Castiel notes that they take away the anguish and suffering of angels and now that they have fallen to earth, they are continuing the work. I thought it was interesting that these angels lack nuance and that Castiel reaffirms how difficult it is to understand humanity. On his quest to be normal (and that is a nice parallel to Sam), Castiel agrees to what he think is a date with Nora. It turns out she has the date, but she’s pairing Cas with her baby girl, Tanya. (And really? You leave your kid with the guy sleeping in the storage room and who wears a “Where’s Waldo?” type striped shirt – you don’t need a date, you need a therapist).
The Dean/Cas interactions were cute and the Castiel and baby scene was priceless as he takes a cue from Dean and sings a song, but instead of Smoke on the Water (ha, yes I remember that), Cas sings the Greatest American Hero theme and Berens wins my heart, again. I really liked that Cas was protective of the baby, reminding us of Castiel’s innate love for human beings. Unfortunately, Ephraim finds Cas and in a nice soliloquy reams Cas for being both strong and weak. Poor confused Pink Angel. Dean interrupts and in a great team work moment, slides the angel blade to Cas, who kills Care Bear Angel. (I call him this because he makes you explode with colors!) Cas decides to stay in this life and we see him last as he opens up the convenient store.
In the other story Sam and Kevin are interrogating Crowley. If Dean/Cas scenes were comforting (if sometimes awkward) and authentic, then the Kevin/Crowley/Sam scenes were intense and filled with suspense. Although resistant, Kevin agrees to give Crowley his blood to make a call to Abaddon. Crowley won’t read the symbols unless he gets a phone call. He’s very SVU about it. And the QUEEN OF ALL THINGS THAT BOOKDAL LOVES appears in this episode. Abaddon, who is outside John’s storage unit it looks like, taunts Crowley about taking over his hood and fixing it all up nice and without corporate bureaucracy. She’s old school Demon, like Run DMC to Crowley’s 50 Cent. Crowley decides to help the Winchesters and translates the symbols, but OH NO! Spell is irreversible (and he is so lying). In the final act we see Sam discover a missing vile of Kevin’s blood and in a weird and interesting twist, sees Crowley mainlining Kevin-lite like Ewan MacGregor in Trainspotting.
Things I liked:
1. Berens, you have won my heart like a knight on the field. I will give you my handkerchief to carry.
2. Castiel as Steve, who is the best thing ever. I want Steve to marry, open a minimart, and have babies.
3. Crowley’s Trainspotting Adventures.
4. Pink Insulation Murder. You’ll never look at Pepto Bismol the same way again.
5. Pacing, dialogue, and Castiel being human without Winchesters. All a win for me.
6. No Zeke! Yay! Bookdal is happy.
Things I didn’t like:
1. Dean needs to hop off the I am God train so I make decisions for all y’all.
2. Not sure why Abaddon doesn’t just kill them all and take over as the star of show
3. Nora has bad taste in men. Look in front of you, girl! Castiel in BLUE with BLUE EYES! And you go off to have the sex with redneck bowler in the pickup.
4. Nora, don’t leave children with strange men. I don’t know why I have to say this.
5. Breakups on Facebook are not socially acceptable and you should’ve died, teenage girl stereotype.
Theories of the Week:
Theory, the first: Ardeospina mentioned that perhaps Kevin’s blood actually reveals why Crowley is so special. Perhaps he was a PROPHET! And Kevin’s blood juices him up.
Theory, the second: We are getting back to some mythology with John Winchester. As was noted by my friend Holly on Twitter, Abaddon was in front of Castle Storage – John’s storage place. What is she searching for, huh?
Theory, the third: Crowley is lying about the spell and either (1) he wants the angels to stay on Earth because they will take out Abaddon or (2) the spell entails more than just sending angels back to Heaven and may include something to do with Hell.
Share your thoughts, speculations, and other feelings in the space below.
And to think, some people were worried about this episode.
What can I say, I loved it. I don’t have too much gushing to do tonight, but I just have to say I love Robert Berens’ style. He’s studied these characters.
What’s up with Crowley though? Was he just jonesing for some human blood or does it mean something else? He seemed pretty depressed about Abbadon’s words. Speaking of which, I didn’t know we’d see Abbadon!
My favorite bit though, Castiel singing the theme from “The Greatest American Hero.” I never thought I’d see the day. Also, I enjoyed the break from an Ezekiel sighting. I don’t hate the story line, but it was nice to have a break from it.
I need time to process, plus I’ve got to get to bed, but it was a pleasant episode to watch. I hope to have more coherent thoughts tomorrow. I’ll also have a poll up too. One that doesn’t involve animal noises. 🙂
I think Crowley was injecting himself with Kevins blood because he was trying to get some of that human feels again.
[quote]I think Crowley was injecting himself with Kevins blood because he was trying to get some of that human feels again.[/quote]
Or he needs a prophet’s blood for whatever reason. To me, the boys took a lot of risk letting Crowley use Kevin’s blood. And he didn’t want Sam’s blood in him! He specified that he preferred Kevin’s, why?
Loved the episode but it was pretty sad at the end … it’s ok sometimes the break my heart episodes are actually my favorite. I think Dean didn’t tell Cas about the spell being irreversible and telling him to let he and Sam take care of the angels is because he doesn’t want him to get hurt but I don’t see Cas sitting on the sidelines for long.
I don’t know whether or not to believe Crowley … he does take his contracts pretty serious (except Dick but I’m sure he made somewhat of a loophole for that) and right now he doesn’t even have Hell to lose but at the same time it’s Crowley. It was nice to have no Ezekiel for once but since Sam was safe in the bunker and Dean left to go help Cas there wasn’t really a reason for it.
The Mom in me was scared that Ephraim was there to hurt the baby but was just as scared scared he wanted to take Cas out … hands off the both of ’em! Although I was equal parts laughing hysterically and unable to watch Cas singing the theme song from the Greatest American Hero … where did he even hear that? Brilliant!
A good solid episode with all the main characters in play. I do think it was risky to let Crowley have Kevin’s blood but interesting development. Wondered why there was still blood left in the syringe and it wasn’t all in the bowl?
Disagree with you that Dean is playing God by questioning Cas about why he was doing what he was doing. I saw it more as concern about and feeling guilty about having to kick Cas out of the bunker. The fact that Dean has had to make some tough decisions regarding Sam/Zeke this season or the fact that he is even strong enough to make thses decisions doesn’t mean he’s cavalierly playing God. He respected Cas’s choice in the end by telling Cas that he and Sam would take care of the angels.
I enjoyed it. It was nicely paced. I was worried that the promo’s would have us back to bumbling Cas but they are still treating his story with some degree of sensitivity. What was Crowley injecting? Kevin’s blood? To feel human. Does prophets blood have some secret properties? To get high? Could he have been injecting air? I know that can be fatal to a human but a demon (or whatever he is)? He did seem pretty depressed. I don’t think it was Sam’s, why would he be keeping a vial of his own blood? Intriguing. I also loved Cas singing the theme to “Greatest American Hero” to the baby. Sweet and kinda sad. Nice episode,
i liked it ok but didn’t love it. i thought out of all the eps so far, this was kind of the least in ranking. it was the only one i didn’t rewatch right away. i can wait til the cw reruns it. don’t get me wrong, i like cas i really do, and i’m sorry mishamigos, but i don’t think he’s all that entrancing to dedicate half an eppy to him, not like they did with bobby. i thought weekend at bobby’s was a really great eppy. i thought bobby was colorful and interesting enough to keep my interest and not seeing the boys in it so much didn’t bother me. don’t get me wrong, this story, for me, was nice, but underwhelming. my mind started to wander during the dean/cas parts and i only perked up during the sam/crowley/kevin parts. . guess that’s blasphemy huh…sorry…i guess i found cas way more interesting when he was a wayward angel trying and failing….for me, his human storyline, while it has it’s moments, i mean i did love him singing the greatest american hero theme to the baby, but overall it just doesn’t fascinate me. on the plus side, i do feel like cas will eventually be on the way back towards being that wayward angel again…. my fingers crossed there.
i liked the eppy, but one thing bugged me alot…last week we saw how dean was worried that zeke could very well take possession of sam. i mean that thought seemed to go through dean’s head last week. we know how worried dean is about the whole zeke inside sam situation, but not once in the entire time that dean was with cas did he bring zeke up and question cas about him. i mean he could’ve been subtle about it. he didn’t have to tell cas why, i mean it’s not like dean has trouble lying…so why didn’t he ask cas anything about zeke? when it ended all i thought about was a wasted opportunity and i kept asking myself…how could dean not ask?
did really enjoy crowley/sam/ kevin portion of the show. and i gotta wonder what’s the deal with having kevin’s blood? both blood is human…so was crowley simply jonesing for a hit of humanity? why not sam’s blood? is he pissed off that sam made him human in the first place? i don’t think that kevin’s blood can counteract sam’s.. does it have to do with kevin being a prophet? would crowley have wanted dean’s over sam’s? i’m really curious about the blood thing.
love abbadon. don’t know that crowley was lying..do think that cas, zeke, sam and dean will have to find a way to bring down metatron though.
glad it was only sam tonight.
looking forward to next week and just the boys on a good old fashioned ghost hunt.
It was ok if you are interested in quote human Castiel and his relationship with Dean. Outside of that Sam wasn’t in it long enough to make a opinion , his interactions with Crowley were good but those scenes were more about Crowley than Sam .
The last two episodes have not grabbed me to be honest so we shall see what next week’s bring .
A nice solid episode. It had some ‘funny Cas’ but not overdone or clownish and some really sweet Cas too and Dean being sensitive which is nice. I loved the scene where Cas confides how difficult things are to the baby, it gave great insight into what he’s going through… I wish Sam had gotten a similar scene; we still don’t seem to be getting much POV for Sam, and it’s clear that the writers can figure out how to get that insight for other characters so I wish they’d figure out how to do so for Sam as well.
Interesting developments regarding Crowley and Kevin’s blood; it felt kind of like pennies dropping, but it’s still not clear what that will mean. Was it important that the blood was Kevin’s or that it wasn’t Sam’s? This portion of the story seemed to get a little short shrift.. I wish it had been longer and more detailed as the events between Kevin, Crowley and Sam seemed pretty important. I guess they wanted to make sure what was going on was pretty cryptic. It does give Crowley good reason to cooperate with the Winchesters though; he’s going to end up on the same side as them in fighting off Abbabdon. Nice movement on many of the plot lines. All in all a good connecter episode.
This was a nice episode; well paced and it moved most of the season’s story lines forward. Nice first effort by Robert Berens – he clearly did his homework on the characters he was writing for.
I like how they’re handling Castiel’s storyline, not overplaying the comic/bumbling moments but rather portraying him human with many of the same characteristics he had as an angel.
Not sure whether Crowley was lying about the spell being reversible or not. It was an interesting turn of events with Crowley at the end; IMO there’s nothing special about Kevin’s blood, it’s looks like Crowley wants to become human.
In keeping with the Pepto Bismol theme of the episode, perhaps Castiel should have sung the Alka Seltzer jingle (plop plop, fizz, fizz….) to the baby instead?
The episode was just okay. I liked the Ephraim story, the Crowley/Abaddon scene, Dean facing some consequences for his decision, and I liked that the brothers were separated, but in touch and all is well at the moment.
I’m sorry Misha minions, but MC just can’t carry an episode for me and Cas’ human story doesn’t interest me. I thought Sam was impotent and Kevin was as expected.
Nothing special and nothing awful, so an average SPN episode for me that I didn’t mind watching.
I did like this episode, welcome to the fold Mr. Berens! I loved seeing Cas live the life of an everyday Joe. The way he took pride in what he did, and of course he was a very steadfast employee. But I’ll agree with everyone here when I say, Lady, are you nuts leaving your beautiful baby with a perfect stranger??? 😮 Get your frigging head examined! But it gave us all an ahhhh moment when Cas is so worried because she’s feeling too warm. That was sweet. As for Ephraim, thanks buddy, I will never look at Pepto Bismol the same way again.
I loved Crowley’s phone call to Hell, on hold indeed! 😛 I hadn’t noticed that Abaddon was in front of Castle Storage, very interesting. And why would Crowley be craving Kevin blood? Colour me intrigued! Nice that Zeke didn’t make a showing this week, it was all Sam.
Next week looks like a good old fashioned ghost hunt. Yay!
Sorry, I guess I wasn’t done! About the whole “why Crowley wanted Kevin’s blood and not Sam’s” conundrum: I can think of a few things. 1. Crowley wants prophet blood for some reason that will be made clear later on; 2. Crowley knows about Zeke and doesn’t want blood tainted with angel grace inside him; 3. More of Sam’s blood in Crowley would cause him to become more human than he wants 4. More of Sam’s blood would come too close to finishing off the aborted trial. This whole scenario is one of those things that is either pretty significant and will be explained later or will never come up again. It’s hard to tell at the moment. The fact that we saw Sam (or perhaps Zeke) witness that tells me that its significant.
Re: Zeke. It did feel right, or balanced to have an episode without him, but I disagree with those who think this part of the story is dragging or not interesting: for me, the whole Zeke thing is the most interesting, exciting and complex story line they’ve done in years, and I love it! There is a wealth of possibilities in it and the potential for angst is wonderfully high. I do think that having one episode without seeing Zeke makes sense at this point at least for the overall balance of the arc, but I am in no way tired of it, or think it’s dragging or want it to end. They could run with this all season long as far as I’m concerned.
One more thing that occurred to me as well: Dean is now lying to Cas too. Well, perhaps lying is too strong, he’s withholding pretty important information from Cas, most likely trying to protect him. But Dean never seems to realize that these decisions that the makes on other people’s behalf, his protective streak often ends up coming back to bite him and those he’s trying to protect, in the butt. He probably should have told Cas about the angels and Heaven. Who knows, Cas may have some information in his grapefruit that could help with this whole situation just like he did about the pink goo and the hunt; Dean would never have figured out what was going on if he hadn’t brought Cas into things which could have resulted in Ephriam killing Cas because he wouldn’t have known about him until it was too late. But I think Dean was affected by the idea that Cas is overwhelmed and that he’s scared; that really seemed to surprise Dean and bring out his protective instincts. I wonder if withholding the heaven information from Cas will have repercussions down the road as well? Between the Zeke issue and now holding info back from Cas, Dean’s in pretty deep ain’t he.
Nice episode, even though it did not keep me on the edge of my seat. I really liked Cas playing serious responsible human.
Cas thought he was going on a date – did anyone tell him about “protection” yet, or did I just miss that part? 😀 I LOVED the theme to “Great American Hero.” That still makes me smile right now. Cas likes tv.
The Sam/Kevin/Crowley storyline was more intriguing. I want to see Sam/Kevin WIN and Crowley just lies and gets away with it. At least Hell put him on hold. And I like Abaddon as a bad guy. She plays “I have fun being evil – with abandon!” really well, IMO.
My deep (thinky) thoughts will keep!
I may be in the minority, but this episode did nothing for me. It wasn’t bad, just….. boring filler.
Cas is adjusting nicely to his humanity, with a few emotional bumps. He’s still being portrayed as the lovable buffoon, although not as over-the-top silly as previously. It was great to see, but not worth an entire episode, imo.
The big bad was not very interesting, either…. So we have the angel of mercy idea being condoned in heaven, but he can’t tell the difference between fatal injury and teenage emotional angst? Seriously?
Pepto bismal pink gore? It made me laugh – not in a good way.
I think leaving Crowley in the basement for so many episodes is a waste of Mark Sheppards considerable talents. I want to see a proper Crowley/Kevin confrontation, a Crowley/Sam conversation about the church, a Crowley/Abaddon showdown! Come on Show, let’s get a move on!
I am SO over Dean feeling like he has to hide things from everyone, as if he is the only person who knows how to “properly” react to bad news, and so must be such a martyr to his guilt. I thought we were having character growth? Communication!
I also think they’ve over-played the Zeke as super special healing angel…. but I am not ready for a break from that story. I’m ready to get on with the real problem of Sam finding out about it, and evicting his feathery ass!
They’ve introduced some interesting problems (fallen angels/Metatron, Zeke-in-Sam, Crowley vs Abaddon), but they’re taking so long in the build up, I’m afraid the resolution will not be satisfactory. At least for me.
THE BABY WAS BEE-AUTIFUL…
nuff sed.
This episode was sweet, and sad, and the performance by Misha Collins was amazing, but I was honestly kinda bored. Not sure why but the whole time I felt detached. This is a case of the whole being less, for me, than the sum of its parts.
I liked how the angel storyline was moved along, and loved the Cas scenes, especially the gentle way Dean is dealing with him now even if he’s being insultingly overprotective (yes, I see the pattern Show). I was also really glad to see Kevin again, and to see him and Sam team up against Crawley. I’m totally confused by Crawley mainlining Kevin’s blood. That cliffhanger was awesome.
Mostly what I enjoyed was seeing what’s up with Cas, and how Misha played it. Cas is so tragic. He’s sad but hopeful, has wide-eyed joy and innocence for humans and being human, has great guilt for the angels falling, and finds great pleasure and a sense of responsibility in his work, even as we’re reminded that it’s a pretty meaningless, scut job. Misha brings all that to life seemingly effortlessly. Take the scene where Dean asks him “Where to, Cas?” Without any dialogue, Cas’ pain, loneliness, suffering, and yes, sense of abandonment radiate from his eyes. Misha truly elevates his material (which is admittedly great). Or the last scene, and how we get Cas’ pain and conflict over “sitting it out”. Just brilliant, brilliant work.
Despite liking all that, my immediate reaction was “eh.” Something was just missing for me. I’ll have to watch it again, but it’s clear to me that I love the MOTW and brother-centric stories. And the funny ones.
Re: the season arc, I’m growing weary of getting hammered over the head with how much Dean is willing to lie. I get it. Dean is a lying liar who lies. Even he’s said that – “I lied. I do that.” I hope this is all leading somewhere and not just the show dragging this all out until the mid-season break. And again, I understand why Dean lied – knowing that they can’t “reverse the spell” is going to devastate Cas. But as Sam told Dean, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
One thought that occurred to me after being reminded again that Kevin’s the prophet and that makes him special: can’t the angels all find the current and former prophets? Or am I remembering that wrong? Because if so, then having Kevin in the bunker makes Zeke kicking out Cas even fishier. Or is Kevin warded against angels too? I honestly can’t remember.
[quote]
I also think they’ve over-played the Zeke as super special healing angel…. but I am not ready for a break from that story. I’m ready to get on with the real problem of Sam finding out about it, and evicting his feathery ass![/quote]
“Evicting his feathery ass” – heh I love it.
Is it possible that Sam and Kevin didn’t accidentally leave Crowley with a vial full of extremely strong magical ingredient (doh) but instead that Zeke deliberately gave it to Crowley? He is kind of a busy-body isn’t he? Maybe he thinks that helping to cure Crowley is part of his job.
The pink goop? I have worked in a meat factory and when you grind up meat, bones, skin and everything else into a slurry it does come out a particularly hideous shade of pink….
On an infintely less gross note:
Wasn’t Cas with the baby just the cutest thing 😀 Aw! And Misha you fail at looking awkward holding a baby – sorry …
If Crowley could translate that language, wouldn’t Cas too be able to translate it? I trust Cas more than Crowley on this.
I don’t think Dean was misleading or being deceitful with Cas by not telling him about the angel spell not working . He was respecting Cas’s wish to be a regular human and not a hunter. He told Cas he and Sam would deal with the angel problem. Telling Cas about not being able to reverse the spell would have only made Cas feel guilty or make him think he had to go into hunting. If Dean had shared that information with Cas we would have had comments about how manipulative Dean is and how he was forcing Cas into hunting. Dean can’t win for losing it seems.
A theory: Heaven is locked down for angels, but not for humans. Then, maybe the only way the angels have to return to Heaven is become human and die. And get their grace back later, in Heaven (don’t ask me how).
[quote]I don’t think Dean was misleading or being deceitful with Cas by not telling him about the angel spell not working . He was respecting Cas’s wish to be a regular human and not a hunter. He told Cas he and Sam would deal with the angel problem. Telling Cas about not being able to reverse the spell would have only made Cas feel guilty or make him think he had to go into hunting. If Dean had shared that information with Cas we would have had comments about how manipulative Dean is and how he was forcing Cas into hunting. Dean can’t win for losing it seems.[/quote]
I agree.
[quote]I don’t think Dean was misleading or being deceitful with Cas by not telling him about the angel spell not working . He was respecting Cas’s wish to be a regular human and not a hunter. He told Cas he and Sam would deal with the angel problem. Telling Cas about not being able to reverse the spell would have only made Cas feel guilty or make him think he had to go into hunting. If Dean had shared that information with Cas we would have had comments about how manipulative Dean is and how he was forcing Cas into hunting. Dean can’t win for losing it seems.[/quote]
Agreed… Dean telling Castiel about this would have served no purpose other than making Castiel feel guilty.
[quote]The episode was just okay. I liked the Ephraim story, the Crowley/Abaddon scene, Dean facing some consequences for his decision, and I liked that the brothers were separated, but in touch and all is well at the moment.
I’m sorry Misha minions, but MC just can’t carry an episode for me and Cas’ human story doesn’t interest me. I thought Sam was impotent and Kevin was as expected.
Nothing special and nothing awful, so an average SPN episode for me that I didn’t mind watching.[/quote]
I agree with you. Castiel bores me. And wher would Castiel have seen/heard the theme to the greatest american hero? he’s sleeping int he backroom of a convenience store…whcih has NO tv. And i’ve really reached thhe point where I wish Sam had been killed off as we now have yet another writer who can’t/won’t/refuses to write Sam or even try to get inside hisi head and give us POV about the things happening to HIM. its obvious the writers dont see Sam as anything other then a plot device.
So..kill off Sam and let Zeke or something else take over his body so we can keep Jared.
Dean continues to CHOOSE to lie to Sam and Castiel. he doesn’t HAVE to, he CHOOSES to. Sam obviously cares about Castiel and his well being. JAred absolutes sells it. And yet Castiel who has claimed Sam is his friend has never once given Sam a single thought even though thee last he heard Sam was near death. Misha repeats words ona page but there is no truth to them.
Are the writers THAT opposed to allowing Sam and Castiel to interact? How can you have a TEAM freewill if two of the members NEVER interact.
[quote]Is it possible that Sam and Kevin didn’t accidentally leave Crowley with a vial full of extremely strong magical ingredient (doh) but instead that Zeke deliberately gave it to Crowley? He is kind of a busy-body isn’t he? Maybe he thinks that helping to cure Crowley is part of his job.[/quote] Hey eilf, thanks for putting that out there, that changes things considerably. Maybe Zeke did show up, it was just off camera.
#21 –
I don’t think Dean was being manipulative, and I don’t think he was necessarily wrong about not WANTING to telling Cas. It would be hard information to absorb, especially given Cas’ emotional state.
But I don’t think it was a noble thing for Dean to do, either. Withholding information that has EVERYTHING to do with the person being kept in the dark is very rarely the right thing to do. Especially when that person is an adult and capable of making his own decisions.
This is information about What and Who Cas is – and can become… What his future holds. I don’t believe it was Dean’s responsibility- or right – to decide whether Cas should know or not. (Same situation with Sam).
I am VERY tired of Dean thinking he HAS to make those decisions for everyone (Cas, Kevin, Sam) – and then feel guilty about it.
It wasn’t my intent to insult Dean…. but as Sam (I think) has said before… It’s not supposed to be easy! I think it’s high time for Dean to start allowing those around him to be adult and make their own decisions based on having ALL the facts – not just the ones he’s okay with sharing. And yes, they’ll make mistakes and suffer for it. They are human. But that is not on Dean, and if his character is to grow, he needs to come to accept that.
Maybe the writers are – not so subtly – leading Dean and the viewers to this point.
ETA: Cas has the right to reject the information as false (since it came from Crowley) or attempt to verify it for himself if he wanted to – or even accept it and be comfortable in his new life as human. But those are HIS choices to make, and he can’t make them without information.
[quote]I think leaving Crowley in the basement for so many episodes is a waste of Mark Sheppards considerable talents. I want to see a proper Crowley/Kevin confrontation, a Crowley/Sam conversation about the church, a Crowley/Abaddon showdown! Come on Show, let’s get a move on![/quote]
Mark Sheppard is also in a regular role over on White Collar. Both shows are having to juggle his schedule, so I think that is why less has happened with Crowley.
#28 – Percy
That’s great for MS (He’s always in demand!), but I think they could do a better job of making use of the time he can spare for SPN. He’s obviously able to give them a day or two now and again. I think they could find better things for him to do than to sit at a table in the dark, imo.
[quote][quote]The episode was just okay. I liked the Ephraim story, the Crowley/Abaddon scene, Dean facing some consequences for his decision, and I liked that the brothers were separated, but in touch and all is well at the moment.
I’m sorry Misha minions, but MC just can’t carry an episode for me and Cas’ human story doesn’t interest me. I thought Sam was impotent and Kevin was as expected.
Nothing special and nothing awful, so an average SPN episode for me that I didn’t mind watching.[/quote]
I agree with you. Castiel bores me. And wher would Castiel have seen/heard the theme to the greatest american hero? he’s sleeping int he backroom of a convenience store…whcih has NO tv. And i’ve really reached thhe point where I wish Sam had been killed off as we now have yet another writer who can’t/won’t/refuses to write Sam or even try to get inside hisi head and give us POV about the things happening to HIM. its obvious the writers dont see Sam as anything other then a plot device.
So..kill off Sam and let Zeke or something else take over his body so we can keep Jared.
Dean continues to CHOOSE to lie to Sam and Castiel. he doesn’t HAVE to, he CHOOSES to. Sam obviously cares about Castiel and his well being. JAred absolutes sells it. And yet Castiel who has claimed Sam is his friend has never once given Sam a single thought even though thee last he heard Sam was near death. Misha repeats words ona page but there is no truth to them.
Are the writers THAT opposed to allowing Sam and Castiel to interact? How can you have a TEAM freewill if two of the members NEVER interact.[/quote]
My problem was that the episode was circular in that we ended up right where were always were: Sam is unknowingly possessed, Kevin is just like Kevin always is, Dean has gone from badass back to emoting and angsting, Cas is exploring his ‘humanness’, Crowley and Abaddon are vying for the King of Hell position. No word on Bart or Zeke.
I think it moved the SPN landscape into being different, in that I expect the fallen angels are with us until the end. It also moved Cas into recognizing he has to decides whether he’s okay with Being Human or whether he needs to fight the angels.
The problem with that for me is that I’m okay if Cas isn’t in the episode or on the show. I want to see what the Winchesters are doing.
I also think that running the mytharc side-by-side with the separate Cas is human story isn’t working out too well. The mytharc is — can be — very interesting if more time was paid to it. Sad-eyed, mournful looks Cas just isn’t to me.
Am I the only one who thought it was Sam’s blood that Crowley took? When Sam showed the vials before the call, some of them were full right? I’m assuming full of Sam’s blood leftover from S8 finale. I thought Kevin only filled one vial and they used all of it for the phone call. So my theory is that Crowley got a taste of his humanity back, but the trial was interrupted and now he’s got a craving for more — via Sam’s blood. Also, if it was Sam’s leftover blood from the third trial, it wouldn’t be tainted with Zeke, because the angel possession hadn’t happened yet. (Could be interesting parallel with when Sam was hooked on demon blood.)
#27 – Since Cas stated he did not want to get involved in being a hunter and DID want to try to succeed at becoming a regular human, giving him hunter info is not relevant to his life at this point except to make him feel further guilt for trusting Metatron. He isn’t put in any jeopardy by not knowing this information but might be more discouraged and guilt ridden by knowing it. Dean did allow Cas to make his own decision and Cas’s decision was not to be involved in the hunter lifestyle. Cas made his own choice when he didn’t go on the hunt for the Ehfraim and Dean respected that by not pushing him or involving him further in the angel problem. The information had NOTHING to do with Cas anymore at this point in time. The only person Dean is keeping a secret from is Sam about Ezekiel and that I am sure he will pay for but to say he is playing God with everyone or making decisions for other characters is just not true for me. I also don’t think Dean feels guilty about not telling Cas about the new info, just sad to leave Cas on his own in order to protect Sam. It was exactly the right thing for Dean to do.
Prix68 –
Ok. Agree to disagree. 🙂
[quote]Am I the only one who thought it was Sam’s blood that Crowley took? When Sam showed the vials before the call, some of them were full right? I’m assuming full of Sam’s blood leftover from S8 finale. [/quote]
I thought that as well, but the writer tweeted that it was Kevin’s blood, so I guess that’s that. I guess my desire to have Sam do SOMETHING other than be possessed by Zeke made me make a wrong assumption. Now we know that Sam’s blood is unworthy of Crowley and that Sam doesn’t know what Cuneiform is.
I guess we are supposed to believe that Crowley studied ancient languages, because Fergus McLeod who died 400 years ago had no reason to be able to read them.
[quote]#28 – Percy
That’s great for MS (He’s always in demand!), but I think they could do a better job of making use of the time he can spare for SPN. He’s obviously able to give them a day or two now and again. I think they could find better things for him to do than to sit at a table in the dark, imo.[/quote]
MS is also in a number of episodes (7, if I recall correctly) on another show — Warehouse 13 maybe? His time is very limited this season between the three shows.
No real comment on the show itself, other than a sigh of relief that there were no dogs in it. However, they missed a chance for a chuckle, when Crowley was about to be put on hold, it should have been the indecipherable growling of the blood bowl, followed by him blustering “don’t you dare!”and being cut off by a tinny Muzak version of Hell’s Bells. Thanks, writing team, you can put my check in the mail.
You’re right [b]Ginger[/b] he is in Warehouse 13 as well. He’s a very busy actor currently.
[quote]
I thought that as well, but the writer tweeted that it was Kevin’s blood, so I guess that’s that. [/quote]
Thanks for cluing me in! 😳 I’ve been avoiding twitter because I can’t watch live and I’m averse to spoilers. But then I miss out on some things..
[quote]I don’t think Dean was misleading or being deceitful with Cas by not telling him about the angel spell not working . He was respecting Cas’s wish to be a regular human and not a hunter. He told Cas he and Sam would deal with the angel problem. Telling Cas about not being able to reverse the spell would have only made Cas feel guilty or make him think he had to go into hunting. If Dean had shared that information with Cas we would have had comments about how manipulative Dean is and how he was forcing Cas into hunting. Dean can’t win for losing it seems.[/quote]
Amen Prix68!
[quote]I don’t think Dean was misleading or being deceitful with Cas by not telling him about the angel spell not working . He was respecting Cas’s wish to be a regular human and not a hunter. He told Cas he and Sam would deal with the angel problem. Telling Cas about not being able to reverse the spell would have only made Cas feel guilty or make him think he had to go into hunting. If Dean had shared that information with Cas we would have had comments about how manipulative Dean is and how he was forcing Cas into hunting. Dean can’t win for losing it seems.[/quote]
prix…this is exactly how i felt in regards to Sam last season…he believed his brother dead and accepted it even though he was living in his own hell and got flack for it. If he had tried to do something to get dean back..he’d have had to make a demon deal..only to learn dean wasn’t dead. So he would have damned himself to hell at the expense of his brother..had Sam found a way to rescue dean once he learned ,if he learned where dean was. So either Sam went to hell again for nothing..or he was able to rescue dean..pissing dean off and continuing the endless cycle of hurting each other and burdening the other with guilt…so Sam listened to dean and bobby and didn’t mess with the natural order…sam got screwed anyway…he couldn’t win for trying…now it seems the shoe is on the other foot..it sucks doesn’t it…but as I’ve always said…both boys go through the same thing or some version of the same thing at one time or another….i agree by the way that dean wasn’t withholding from cas…,just Sam.
LINDA, I have seen the episode 5 times but because of my VCR…..STOP LAUGHING A ME
I had to watch online. DO YOU THINK THEY FORGOT about CASTLE STORAGE or it will come back to haunt us….
I think Dean was smart to not to mention anything to Cas yet. I mean, think about it… they got this information from Crowley. Do we really trust him? He has always been manipulative and could’ve told them anything, if it serves his purpose. And Dean knows this better than anyone. I think it’s wise of him to wait and see if they can find out more about the spell, before telling Cas anything based on what Crowley has said (particularly as Cas is so vulnerable right now).
Crowley injecting the blood was intriguing. I’m in the group that thinks it might be Sam’s blood. So we are all thinking about Zeke, even though he didn’t make an appearance this week. Clever!
I’m thoroughly enjoying the Sam/Zeke storyline and can’t wait to see where it all goes. Loving season 9 🙂
Quoting amyh #25,
“And wher would Castiel have seen/heard the theme to the greatest american hero? he’s sleeping int he backroom of a convenience store…whcih has NO tv.”
Actually, at the very end of the episode they clearly show Cas using a remote to turn on a TV that is in the store. So, it’s not unlikely at all that Cas could have and probably did hear the theme song to Greatest American Hero while working the late shift. And knowing Cas he probably really likes that show!
[quote] Dean needs to hop off the I am God train so I make decisions for all y’all.
[/quote]
With utmost respect to your review, I don’t agree with you on the above point. To start with Dean was never on the god train to start with. He always did what he thought was best for his family and for the rest of the world. He never made decisions for his own benefit which he thought was best at that time. In the very same way that Castiel took his decision to open up purgatory and to do the trials leading to the angel extraction from heaven. Dean was the one who was stopping him from making all those decisions and not to forget that it was Cas who wanted to play God and wrecked heaven and earth both. Lastly, I would like to add that my comment is not from a Dean girl or Sam girl but from a Supernatural fan.
[quote][quote] Dean needs to hop off the I am God train so I make decisions for all y’all.
[/quote]
With utmost respect to your review, I don’t agree with you on the above point. To start with Dean was never on the god train to start with. He always did what he thought was best for his family and for the rest of the world. He never made decisions for his own benefit which he thought was best at that time. In the very same way that Castiel took his decision to open up purgatory and to do the trials leading to the angel extraction from heaven. Dean was the one who was stopping him from making all those decisions and not to forget that it was Cas who wanted to play God and wrecked heaven and earth both. Lastly, I would like to add that my comment is not from a Dean girl or Sam girl but from a Supernatural fan.[/quote]
With all due respect Dean does make decisions for his own benefit. It is precisely the idea that Dean does everything for selfless reasons that causes most of the issues .He makes decisions that can have negative consquences , . And the Ezekiel situation will not end well either when Sam finds out.
[quote][quote][quote] Dean needs to hop off the I am God train so I make decisions for all y’all.
[/quote]
With utmost respect to your review, I don’t agree with you on the above point. To start with Dean was never on the god train to start with. He always did what he thought was best for his family and for the rest of the world. He never made decisions for his own benefit which he thought was best at that time. In the very same way that Castiel took his decision to open up purgatory and to do the trials leading to the angel extraction from heaven. Dean was the one who was stopping him from making all those decisions and not to forget that it was Cas who wanted to play God and wrecked heaven and earth both. Lastly, I would like to add that my comment is not from a Dean girl or Sam girl but from a Supernatural fan.[/quote]
With all due respect Dean does make decisions for his own benefit. It is precisely the idea that Dean does everything for selfless reasons that causes most of the issues .He makes decisions that can have negative consquences , . And the Ezekiel situation will not end well either when Sam finds out.[/quote]
Dean AND Sam both make decisions. Not God like decisions, just decions. It looks like it’s God like because they are dealing with live or death, save or end of the world. I admire them because they don’t shy away from making decision and accepting the consequences, never running away from it.
Only the situation where they refused to play their roles in the apocalypse, as was, supposedly, God’s plan, was a God like decision.
Sam has made morally dubious decisions concerning Dean’s life, also. See Faith where, if he was sorry a guy died in Dean’s place and that made Dean feel awful, he was clearly prepared to save Dean’s life again that way, even at that cost. And was prepared to do it again in In My Time of Dying and in Mystery Spot.
Season 4 experience changed Sam. The next time he saw Dean die he was paralised (Season 8). But we don’t know what decision Sam would make if the situation was reversed, eg, if Sam was in Dean’s shoes with Zeke kind of situation. I doubt Sam would peacefuly watch Dean die and do nothing when a way to save his brother was staring at his face.
Maybe we will see something like this this season.
#44 and #46 my feelings too! Nicely put.
[quote][quote][quote] Dean needs to hop off the I am God train so I make decisions for all y’all.
[/quote]
With utmost respect to your review, I don’t agree with you on the above point. To start with Dean was never on the god train to start with. He always did what he thought was best for his family and for the rest of the world. He never made decisions for his own benefit which he thought was best at that time. In the very same way that Castiel took his decision to open up purgatory and to do the trials leading to the angel extraction from heaven. Dean was the one who was stopping him from making all those decisions and not to forget that it was Cas who wanted to play God and wrecked heaven and earth both. Lastly, I would like to add that my comment is not from a Dean girl or Sam girl but from a Supernatural fan.[/quote]
With all due respect Dean does make decisions for his own benefit. It is precisely the idea that Dean does everything for selfless reasons that causes most of the issues .He makes decisions that can have negative consquences , . And the Ezekiel situation will not end well either when Sam finds out.[/quote]
Please allow me to comment, if allowed.
I think Dean is both selfless and selfish. The most selfish thing Dean did was selling his soul to bring Sam back from the dead. We all know that the Winchester brothers are deeply co-dependent and Dean is the prime example. He barely can live without Sam. As if he’s incapable to function without his brother. If Dean is a robot then his main, probably only, operative is PROTECT SAMMY. When there’s no Sammy to protect …..
I can imagine a robot!Dean will shout… “Defunct! Defunct! Self destruct…. retrieve Sammy at all cost, protect Sammy….
It’s not Dean’s fault actually because he’s brainwashed by his upbringing to never need anyone else but family –> Sammy. Probably it’s all John’s fault but really if you must blame then blame Demons and Angels, who’d orchestrated the whole thing from the beginning. They’re just puppets in the big plan of the apocalypse.
So, Dean is selfish, yes when it is about his brother. But Dean is super selfless when it’s about everybody else.
He’d die for Sam but he doesn’t stop to consider how Sam feels if he die for him. Why? Because Dean can’t feel past his own pain of loosing his brother to consider that maybe by bringing Sam back, by dying for Sam would hurt Sam too. It’s better to die than to feel pain from loosing a loved one.
Perhaps it’s Dean’s character flaw but that’s why we love him 😀
I got to say one more thing. Last season by this time, this fandom was giving the writers hell because Sam didn’t look for Dean, Sam didn’t try to save Dean, the writers killed Sam’s character, the show is ruined etc.
This time Dean saves Sam and the fandom says he shouldn’t have, Dean should have let Sam die, Dean shouldn’t play God etc.
Go figure.
[quote][quote][quote] Dean needs to hop off the I am God train so I make decisions for all y’all.
[/quote]
With utmost respect to your review, I don’t agree with you on the above point. To start with Dean was never on the god train to start with. He always did what he thought was best for his family and for the rest of the world. He never made decisions for his own benefit which he thought was best at that time. In the very same way that Castiel took his decision to open up purgatory and to do the trials leading to the angel extraction from heaven. Dean was the one who was stopping him from making all those decisions and not to forget that it was Cas who wanted to play God and wrecked heaven and earth both. Lastly, I would like to add that my comment is not from a Dean girl or Sam girl but from a Supernatural fan.[/quote]
With all due respect Dean does make decisions for his own benefit. It is precisely the idea that Dean does everything for selfless reasons that causes most of the issues .He makes decisions that can have negative consquences , . And the Ezekiel situation will not end well either when Sam finds out.[/quote]
I think Sharon it has more to do with the fact that no one gives Dean crap in the show for his decisions every other episode…or says he forgives to have that dredged up again and give grief about that later on.Dean being selfless only is a lie.Same as Sam being only selfish.
Dean makes a deal for Sam’s life..Sam does not give him crap for bringing him back and sullying his sacrifice.
Any decision Dean makes which has adverse effects on Sam (others) …Sam does not give Dean crap every other episode like Dean does when the situations are reversed.
For Sam it was Dean who called him in season 5 but we never hear about it again.
If Sam were to call out Dean every other episode then we will come to know how his decisions effect him.I sincerely hope it happens this season.
[quote]I got to say one more thing. Last season by this time, this fandom was giving the writers hell because Sam didn’t look for Dean, Sam didn’t try to save Dean, the writers killed Sam’s character, the show is ruined etc.
This time Dean saves Sam and the fandom says he shouldn’t have, Dean should have let Sam die, Dean shouldn’t play God etc.
Go figure.[/quote]
Ale, bravo! Fans will always find something to be unhappy about (which, strangely, makes them happy. At least, I hope so.)
How could anyone blame Dean when he tries to save his brother’s life! Who wouldn’t do the same?
#50 – Are you talking about the phone call when Sam and Ruby were heading off to kill Lilith? That phone call was not the message Dean sent, that was manipulated by Ruby.
Dean has defended Sam’s actions to others numerous times and to Sam himself even about the start of the apocalypse. Why would you wish for strife between the brothers or for Dean to be hurt by Sam?
[quote]#50 – Are you talking about the phone call when Sam and Ruby were heading off to kill Lilith? That phone call was not the message Dean sent, that was manipulated by Ruby.
[/quote]
[u][b]For Sam[/b][/u] it was Dean who called him in season 5 but we never hear about it again.[quote]Dean has defended Sam’s actions to others numerous times and to Sam himself even about the start of the apocalypse.[/quote]After giving him grief for it for many episodes.the throwing of amulet comes to mind as one of the instances.My problem is not with the showrunners showing Dean being angry and unforgiving with Sam’s actions but with their inability to show Sam being similarly angry with the same thing.If Sam is so forgiving I don’t see anyone in show acknowledging it.So Is Sam forgiving or are showrunners lazy when showing Sam’s anger no anger or whatever,his POV is enough.And by POV I do not mean last 5 mins of the last episode of a season.
#53 – Sorry I’m still not sure what phone call you’re talking about. Can you give me more info? Sam’s been shown to be mad at Dean plenty of times and called Dean out for being weak, being Dad’s little soldier, drinking too much, lying, pulling shady crap, not trusting him not to drink demon blood, etc. Sam has walked away from Dean because he’s been so angry at Dean a couple of times.
Dean threw away the amulet because he was hurt that none of Sam’s good memories included him. Quite frankly that would have hurt me deeply, too but I don’t recall Dean ever bringing it up again or Sam either.
Also Sam has a quieter way of being angry. He doesn’t seem as loud as Dean. But that is probably because, wait for it, they are two very different people. He was certainly angry with Dean numerous times last season and showed it and said it.
If it’s more of Sam’s POV you want it doesn’t necessarily have to include being angry at Dean and Sam’s POV by the PTB is really a whole different issue from what we started talking about. IMO
I just want to say that selfish and selfless are in the eye of the beholder. How many times has Sam been called selfish by the fandom and people rally to defend him and give motivations as to WHY he made a decision? He has made some bad decisions but those of us who love him try and understand his mindset at the time and see that maybe it wasn’t about selfishness but that he did what he thought was best at the time. Those of us who love Dean can also get touchy when everything he does gets a bad slant. I don’t think any Dean fan will say that he is perfect or has never done anything that was selfish. Of course he has! We are allowed, I think, to also believe our character is an awesome person who tries to do the right thing more often than not. In the past few months/ years the words selfish and manipulative have popped up more and more in regard to Dean and I don’t think it is any more fair than when Sam is being labeled as selfish or as someone who always runs away. So we offer our opinion as to Dean’s mindset, as we see it, as Sam fans do about him. Actually being both a fan of Sam AND Dean it is distressing (for me) to see either of them criticized unfairly. I also love Cas, Charlie, and Benny who many fans dislike (mainly because they are seen as Dean’s friends). It all gets so old. I have given up hoping that the fans will ever find a common ground and just enjoy the show for it’s entertainment value, the wonderful work the actors do, and the good work everyone who works on the show TRIES to do every damn week.
#55 Leah, I agree with you and you made the point I was actually hoping to make but did it better. I just plain like it better when the brothers are getting along and saving all their anger for the bad guys. In the early days they disagreed but usually solved the issue by the end of the episode. Now, things seem to go on forever and some fans seem to hold grudges longer then Sam and Dean do about things.
[quote][quote]#50 – Are you talking about the phone call when Sam and Ruby were heading off to kill Lilith? That phone call was not the message Dean sent, that was manipulated by Ruby.
[/quote]
[u][b]For Sam[/b][/u] it was Dean who called him in season 5 but we never hear about it again.[quote]Dean has defended Sam’s actions to others numerous times and to Sam himself even about the start of the apocalypse.[/quote]After giving him grief for it for many episodes.the throwing of amulet comes to mind as one of the instances.My problem is not with the showrunners showing Dean being angry and unforgiving with Sam’s actions but with their inability to show Sam being similarly angry with the same thing.If Sam is so forgiving I don’t see anyone in show acknowledging it.So Is Sam forgiving or are showrunners lazy when showing Sam’s anger no anger or whatever,his POV is enough.And by POV I do not mean last 5 mins of the last episode of a season.[/quote]
It was always unclear to me whether Ruby or Zachariah altered the voice message, or whether they were working together. Zachariah said that Sam had a very important part to play; he may need a little nudging in the right direction, but I’ll make sure he plays it.
#57 I watched that episode before I got into reading comments on sites and just thought it was Ruby and never gave it another thought. Just knew it wasn’t Dean. Interesting thought though.
[quote]#53 – Sorry I’m still not sure what phone call you’re talking about. Can you give me more info? Sam’s been shown to be mad at Dean plenty of times and called Dean out for being weak, being Dad’s little soldier, drinking too much, lying, pulling shady crap, not trusting him not to drink demon blood, etc. Sam has walked away from Dean because he’s been so angry at Dean a couple of times.
Dean threw away the amulet because he was hurt that none of Sam’s good memories included him. Quite frankly that would have hurt me deeply, too but I don’t recall Dean ever bringing it up again or Sam either.
Also Sam has a quieter way of being angry. He doesn’t seem as loud as Dean. But that is probably because, wait for it, they are two very different people. He was certainly angry with Dean numerous times last season and showed it and said it.
If it’s more of Sam’s POV you want it doesn’t necessarily have to include being angry at Dean and Sam’s POV by the PTB is really a whole different issue from what we started talking about. IMO[/quote]
The same phone call that you are talking about.You know that the call was manipulated by Ruby or zachariah or any creature.Does Sam know?Sam has been mad at Dean no disagreement there but the showrunners don’t focus on how Sam feels about Dean’s shenanigans with Sam’s life.
This is not real life it is a show .Quieter ways of feeling anger can be shown if the writers make it a point to show it to us.They can repeatedly and quietly show how Sam felt through Sam.
You know something I do know they are two different people.Shocking.I Know…but do you know something? the showrunners are the same.The only hope I have of a Sam centered recurrring character who is good is Kevin (in nine seasons).Shocking.
Who does sam talk about his pain,
Charlie? No…Thebobby replacement guy who died to early? no.Even studious characters like Dean.Common ground and all that hoopla included.
If Sam should know it was Ruby because you know it ,shouldn’t Dean know that those were not all of Sam’s memories as I know those were not all the good memories.[quote]If it’s more of Sam’s POV you want it doesn’t necessarily have to include being angry at Dean[/quote]why not[quote]Now, things seem to go on forever and some fans seem to hold grudges longer then Sam and Dean do about things.[/quote]If this was directed at me ..well I had to sit through nine seasons of “Sam not loving Dean” .Feel free to think about any grudge i am holding.[quote]Sam’s POV by the PTB is really a whole different issue from what we started talking about. IMO[/quote]For me it is not.PTB decide what to show and when.what not show and when to reveal.All of Sam’s insights are too little or very late or at times both.
#59 – I am truly sorry you are upset or if I have upset you further.
AnonymousN- So 9 years of SPN is boiled down to “Sam doesn’t love Dean” to you? That is actually very sad to me. I don’t feel that way , nor do I think most fans of SPN do. I think the loud screeching of some disgruntled fans are taken to be the view of all fans. I am sorry you are angry with Dean, his character has as many admirable traits as Sam’s character. And some worse, to be honest. 🙂 I agree you have some points regarding Sam’s POV. I have never ever doubted the love between the brothers. Not once. Dean’s love has been called into question many time also. It seems so much better to me this season, after last years early season debacle. Grudge holding is never a good thing, especially when you are talking about a TV show and fictional characters but everyone needs to watch the show in their own way.
[quote]AnonymousN- So 9 years of SPN is boiled down to “Sam doesn’t love Dean” to you? [/quote]No no you are misunderstanding or rather I was not clear.What I want to say is I don’t think like that.When I come to this site also I see fans complaining about it.I can ignore it most of the times but sometimes it becomes too much.This is what I have seen unfailingly every season.
[quote]#59 – I am truly sorry you are upset or if I have upset you further.[/quote]
No Prix68 you have not.I like reading your views even though it is different.
[quote][quote]I got to say one more thing. Last season by this time, this fandom was giving the writers hell because Sam didn’t look for Dean, Sam didn’t try to save Dean, the writers killed Sam’s character, the show is ruined etc.
This time Dean saves Sam and the fandom says he shouldn’t have, Dean should have let Sam die, Dean shouldn’t play God etc.
Go figure.[/quote]
Ale, bravo! Fans will always find something to be unhappy about (which, strangely, makes them happy. At least, I hope so.)
How could anyone blame Dean when he tries to save his brother’s life! Who wouldn’t do the same?[/quote]
And therein lies the problem does it not . How do we see Dean , how do we see his actions ? how can we ever blame Dean for his decisions where Sam is concerned , is extreme love not better than no love at all . Surely is it not better than Dean makes that choice for Sam after all he is saving Sam’s life.
I do not particually see my thoughts as moaning for the sake of it but taking a similar situation I have seen ever since Dean’s deal and knowing the outcome.
#62- anonymous, after all this time I know YOU don’t feel that way! You have seen some comments that said that. My point was that most fans don’t feel that way so “Sam doesn’t love Dean” is something that you shouldn’t carry with you just because some fans feel that way. I am aware of the high opinion and regard you have for Sam and respect that! I have read many negative about the characters I love also and it can get to you.
[quote][quote][quote]I got to say one more thing. Last season by this time, this fandom was giving the writers hell because Sam didn’t look for Dean, Sam didn’t try to save Dean, the writers killed Sam’s character, the show is ruined etc.
This time Dean saves Sam and the fandom says he shouldn’t have, Dean should have let Sam die, Dean shouldn’t play God etc.
Go figure.[/quote]
Ale, bravo! Fans will always find something to be unhappy about (which, strangely, makes them happy. At least, I hope so.)
How could anyone blame Dean when he tries to save his brother’s life! Who wouldn’t do the same?[/quote]
And therein lies the problem does it not . How do we see Dean , how do we see his actions ? how can we ever blame Dean for his decisions where Sam is concerned , is extreme love not better than no love at all . Surely is it not better than Dean makes that choice for Sam after all he is saving Sam’s life.
I do not particually see my thoughts as moaning for the sake of it but taking a similar situation I have seen ever since Dean’s deal and knowing the outcome.[/quote]
To be fair many fans complained not so much about Sam not saving Dean as about not seeing his mindset during that year. I could come up with several scenarios where not saving Dean made absolute perfect sense and was not particularly abandonment. The show, however, chose to focus on Dean’s feeling of being betrayed and not one second on whatever Sam went through.
The big thing for me is not that Dean saved Sam, but HOW HE CHOSE TO DO IT. This is like giving a recovering addict a narcotic painkiller because the pain will kill him and then continuing to slip that narcotic into his food supply because otherwise he will die without it. AND you are getting it from someone who worked with people who knowing he was addicted told him the only way to stop the Colombian Cartel from taking over the world and addicting everyone was to take out their leader and then tricking him into doing it. The issue for me isn’t that I wanted Sam to die, it’s that he is having an alien being who HE HAS ALREADY STATED he doesn’t want in him without his consent or knowledge. If way back in season four Sam had used his powers to save Dean, Dean would have bitched and moaned and beat Sam over the head with how he didn’t want to be rescued THAT way. Heck Dean was appalled that Sam saved an entire town from Sam Hain and angel vengeance using his creepy, icky powers. Normally saving a couple thousand people’s lives is a good thing, but Dean and much of fandom was all up in Sam’s grill about DARING to use his powers to save them.
The other point is that we continually get the sympathetic look at Dean’s actions. If we go by history, by the time Sam finds out about what Dean did, Dean is going to be all about HOW HARD it was for HIM to keep this from Sam. How DARE Sam not appreciate DEAN’S pain. Sam’s been possessed? His body has been used to do God Knows What? That makes DEAN feel SO, SO bad. I’m very afraid that Sam’s feelings will be so after the fact and so diminished when Dean beats his chest and tells Sam how awful it was for HIM that any sympathy for Sam will be buried under Dean’s angst.
The fact that this scenario has been reduced to Sam being alive instead of the complete and total violation of Sam’s mind, body and soul tells me that Sam’s feelings are unlikely to even register. Only poor Dean will get a sympathetic look.
#66 – I’m curious, what choice do you think Dean should have made? Or do you just want Dean to suffer more for his choice or suffer more quietly? Would you be content with Sam being killed off like Bobby?
Given the circumstances the show’s writers gave us I think Dean really only had one choice. I had no problem with Sam not looking for Dean last year and I understood when Sam said his world imploded and he didn’t think making the same mistakes as in the past would be the right way to go. I understood it hurt Dean’s feelings but he’s a big boy, get over it.
I don’t see this possession as a violation of Sam any more than an invasive surgery is or an organ transplant is a violation in the real world. It was the best hope for curing Sam in a supernatural genre.
I don’t think having Dean continually lie or his sending Cas out into the cold, hard world without help makes Dean very sympathetic. I’ve seen plenty of comments that weren’t sympathetic to Dean.
I do think we get Sam’s POV. Last year he said why he didn’t look for Dean, he said he felt being with Amelia saved him. Sam told Dean he really didn’t owe him any explanations, he loved Amelia, he saw a light at the end of the tunnel, he’d felt unclean since he was a small child, he told Kevin he wished he had helped him earlier, he said he didn’t trust Benny and he was angry with Dean and said so. There are other examples but you get my drift.
And I’m guessing Sam will have some issues with Dean about the possession and say so. As far as fan complaints about Sam and Dean and the PTB, well that is never ending. Supernatural is a good drama and makes for lots of controversy. So I think the actors and PTB are doing their job and pretty well.
Last year Sam got hell for not looking for Dean and this year Dean is getting hell for having Sam possessed and lying to everyone. What goes around comes around on SPN. That’s just my opinion on how I see things.
[quote] I’m curious, what choice do you think Dean should have made? Or do you just want Dean to suffer more for his choice or suffer more quietly? Would you be content with Sam being killed off like Bobby?[/quote]
First sorry to be annoyed bu I keep say the exact same thing again and again, so yet ANOTHER time. Although I would not have done it,I think Dean was perfectly understandable when he made the original decision about helping Zeke possess Sam. I grudgingly go along with the argument that Sam was willing to trust Dean’s solution to keep him alive. Dean should have then IMMEDIATELY told Sam about Zeke, about being tricked into saying yes and SAM should have had the choice about whether or not he wants to be what Dean has always called it when DEAN’S body is involved, an angel condom. Sam had the right to make that decision and the fact that Dean believes that Sam will make the “wrong” decision (i.e. a decision Dean doesn’t like) doesn’t take away Sam’s right to make it. Do I want Sam dead, no. But I find it horrific that Dean is permitting an alien being to take over Sam’s life without Sam being aware of it.
[quote]Last year he said why he didn’t look for Dean, he said he felt being with Amelia saved him. Sam told Dean he really didn’t owe him any explanations, he loved Amelia, he saw a light at the end of the tunnel, he’d felt unclean since he was a small child, he told Kevin he wished he had helped him earlier, he said he didn’t trust Benny and he was angry with Dean and said so. There are other examples but you get my drift.[/quote]
Ten lines in a few episodes is a far cry from Dean giving a long involved speech over Sam’s dead body in AHBL2. It is a far cry from Dean going on and on reminding Sam that he “betrayed” Dean and wasn’t a good enough brother when he didn’t look for him. It is a far cry from a fairly large monolog about Benny being the only thing Dean could trust and how DARE Sam come back soulless. It is an even farther cry when in the season finale Dean repeats every single thing Sam has done wrong TO DEAN as being unforgiven sins. It is a far cry from Dean telling Garth and Charlie and Kevin how Dean suffered in Purgatory while “Sam hit a dog and met a girl” and frankly, in the end “Sam hit a dog and found a girl” was about the only Sam POV we got. Now we are getting Dean looking all guilty about Zeke, while conveniently calling Zeke to come help whenever it suits DEAN. What I want is for once for Sam to be rightfully angry and for the SHOW to acknowledge that he HAS a right to be angry as opposed to Dean instantly going into “Look how much it hurt ME mode”.
As for Sam being angry about Benny, the show went to ginormous lengths to prove that Benny was the most pure and innocent vampire ever. Lenore had nothing on Benny who never once broke and did a bad thing and who died for Dean’s worthless, jealous brother. Sam was made to look like the bad guy for DARING to mistrust a vampire because the vampire was practically Mother Teresa.
I know we don’t agree on this, but the quotes that I responded to are already completely discounting Sam’s right to chose what is done with his body. Even your post is stating that angelic possession is like an organ transplant. The fact that Sam’s very identity and consciousness gets taken away at Zeke or Dean’s whim makes this a very different thing from an organ transplant. Dean is getting Sam’s body while allowing his person to be subsumed and buried.
While I understand where you are coming from to a point, I disagree with when you say that Dean is making this decision lightly. It is my understanding that Dean plans or planned on telling Sam about Ezekiel as soon as Sam is strong enough to stay alive long enough to make a decision or at least not in a coma. Remember that Dean was not privy to Sam’s conversations while he was in the coma so doesn’t know that Sam was so accepting of death.
I just don’t understand all your animosity towards Dean that seems to go back years.
[quote]While I understand where you are coming from to a point, I disagree with when you say that Dean is making this decision lightly. It is my understanding that Dean plans or planned on telling Sam about Ezekiel as soon as Sam is strong enough to stay alive long enough to make a decision or at least not in a coma. [b]Remember that Dean was not privy to Sam’s conversations while he was in the coma so doesn’t know that Sam was so accepting of death.[/b]
I just don’t understand all your animosity towards Dean that seems to go back years.[/quote]If I may intrude,I think he was to Sam’s conversation with death.
I think the animosity is not towards Dean but the writers who refuse to give similar consideration to Sam.The character who I relate with the most is Sam.I would like to know a little more than Sam hit a dog and met a girl at the beginning of the season.I loved the montage in season six about Dean’s normal time and it was necessary.
#70 – I believe at a Con Jensen said he played that scene as Ezekiel. I wasn’t sure while watching it myself.
I personally felt like the lack of chemistry (or maybe poor writing?) between Sam and Amelia caused a lot of fans to feel like the reason for Sam not looking for Dean was unexplained or not made valid enough. Remember Dean did disappear with Cas, so why wouldn’t Sam assume that Dean was dead or Cas would have brought them both back. Cas still had his angel powers. That’s how I thought of it anyway.
SPN has a way of making things so ambiguous sometimes that all theories can be supported as reasonable and correct. Thanks for your input anonymousN. You love and identify with Sam so the writers must be doing something right. Right?
[quote]#70 – I believe at a Con Jensen said he played that scene as Ezekiel. I wasn’t sure while watching it myself.
[/quote]
Hi Prix68 Actually Jensen was talking about the scene where Zeke took over Sam. One of the very few unambiguous scenes in that episode was Zeke showing Dean what Sam was agreeing with Death. it was very specifically that that made Dean decide to intervene.
SAM If I go with you… can you promise that this time it will be final? That if I’m dead, I stay dead. Nobody can reverse it, nobody can deal it away… and nobody else can get hurt because of me.
DEATH I can promise that.
DEAN What the hell you doing, Sam?
EZEKIEL As you can see, there’s not much time.
DEAN I know. Damn it. I know.
Dean knew exactly what Sam wanted and didn’t want it for him. I am not commenting on this to make Dean look bad and I believe that is what Percysowner is saying with such passion as well. Can I ask you where she said that Dean made the decision [b]lightly[/b] – she may have done so but I can’t see where. I don’t think that Dean made the decision lightly and I am fairly sure Percy doesn’t either. It was an extremely heavy decision, Dean has been second guessing it since he made it, he feels bad about it. Now he knows he has no right to use his brother like a weapon
He is doing a reasonable job of not falling into that trap, but like Sam and the demon blood it is heady to have that much power at your disposal and it remains to be seen how far he goes with it.
The show set this up to be a complicated piece of morality about autonomy and decisions and rights so reducing it to ‘should he have let him die?’ is a problem because that has 2 perfectly valid and opposite answers (neither of which are wrong) and it depends on the mindset of the person you ask.
The complex moral issues are everything that has happened since that moment. And personally I think we should be able to discuss it without having to feel that criticism of his actions means we think Dean is a bad person or that he wouldn’t have taken any other decision originally if another one had presented itself.
I have a huge amount of sympathy for Dean and the dilemma he finds himself in now, because being Dean there is simply no other decision that he could have seen himself making. I have nothing but sympathy for Sam using the power he had and the decisions he had to make in season 4 either. I like these characters and I feel sorry for them for the impossible situations they get into.
But I do feel that when Sam gets nothing but consequences the internal truth of the SPN universe would work better for me if those consequences also applied to others who make the same types of decisions. Or at least that we got the same level of detail into their background.
Who could not be sympathetic to the situation that Dean finds himself in now? and who could not be puzzled at the show leaving us to guess last season?
[quote] “Since Cas stated he did not want to get involved in being a hunter and DID want to try to succeed at becoming a regular human, giving him hunter info is not relevant to his life at this point except to make him feel further guilt for trusting Metatron. “
Regular Humans take responsibility for the situations that they create. Cas created the situation that caused the angels to fall… hence, human or not he has an obligation to resolve that situation as any responsible human being would.
“He isn’t put in any jeopardy by not knowing this information but might be more discouraged and guilt ridden by knowing it.”
Unfortunately this isn’t even true. Not knowing about the irreversibility of the angel spell puts Cas in even greater danger IMO. All of the angels that fell are still out there and looking for some payback and Cas is their #1 bullseye. April and Ephrem have already found him and attempted to kill him. Bart is still looking for him, there are reapers on his ass. Not knowing key information regarding the situation that is in fact Cas’s own fault (good intentions not withstanding) only makes him a bigger and less informed target. He can’t even begin to figure out how to defend himself if he doesn’t even know what’s going on. Cas is scared right now, and I understand that he’s overwhelmed, but as Ephrem said in the episode, “hiding your head in the sand when your brother’s need you the most” is not the answer here, and I think it won’t be long before Cas realizes this and goes to Dean to get back in the game. I appreciate Dean’s protective streak and his willingness to try and clean up Castiel’s mess, but it’s not his place or his responsibility.
“Dean did allow Cas to make his own decision and Cas’s decision was not to be involved in the hunter lifestyle. Cas made his own choice when he didn’t go on the hunt for the Ehfraim and Dean respected that by not pushing him or involving him further in the angel problem.”
Cas made his decision to take himself out of the action based on a lack of pertinent information and is therefore at best an uninformed decision. Dean decided not to keep Cas fully informed about all facets of the situation based on Cas’s fear and uncertainty. This is a very kind gesture and shows how much Cas means to Dean and how much guilt Dean is feeling over the whole Cas situation, but it’s neither a smart decision nor the right one IMO. Ignorance isn’t bliss when you have a target on your back.
“The information had NOTHING to do with Cas anymore at this point in time.”
It has EVERYTHING to do with Cas because he’s the cause of the situation to begin with.
“The only person Dean is keeping a secret from is Sam about Ezekiel and that I am sure he will pay for but to say he is playing God with everyone or making decisions for other characters is just not true for me. I also don’t think Dean feels guilty about not telling Cas about the new info, just sad to leave Cas on his own in order to protect Sam. It was exactly the right thing for Dean to do.”[/quote]
I don’t think Dean feels guilty about not telling Cas either. I just don’t’ think he’s thought things through very thoroughly here. He’s thinking with his heart and not his head; like a friend and not a hunter. Keeping crucial information from Cas isn’t the answer here, despite how bad it might make him feel. Getting Cas to participate in the case of the week proved to be crucial to solving it. Imagine how long it would have taken Dean to figure out that an angel was even involved and about the Angels of Mercy if he hadn’t brought Cas to one of the crime scenes? In this case, Cas was the one with ALL the answers. Ephrem could have killed dozen’s of more people before Dean figured out what was going on and stopped him, and Dean himself would have never recognized that Cas needed saving had Cas not given him all the answers. This may be the case with the Angel spell as well. Crowley may be lying about it being irreversible; Ezekiel could also be manipulating Sam’s belief in Crowley’s information. Cas’s information and knowledge about angels and the fall may be crucial to getting the angels back into heaven, irreversible spell or not… but he’ll be useless if he doesn’t even know what’s going on.
Crap! And I guess I have no idea how to use the quote function to break up the quote into sections. All my responses ended up inside the original quote. Sorry Prix, I hope it doesn’t look like I was trying to change your original post, I was just trying to respond to various aspect of it. Ugh, what a mess. 😳
Hi eilf, I’d love to see more of Sam’s point of view too.
I’m happy that we get Dean’s point of view and I understand his decisions even when they may turn out to be wrong with hindsight. It’s a tricky situation and it could turn out either way. I’m not willing to judge either Sam or Dean too harshly when I’m sat safe on the sofa, rather than facing a life-or-death situation.
So no Dean-hate here. Like you, I just think it would be good if we got more of Sam’s POV too.
Okay, I’m going to give a general reply because I don’t know how to do quotes and don’t really feel like figuring it out at this point. About Cas knowing whether the spell can be broken. Cas already knows the angels are out to get him and he’s in danger. Cas doesn’t know how to reverse the spell or he already would have. The angels don’t want his help at this point, they want to kill him. The information came from Crowley and may not be true. Cas already knows he made a bad decision trusting Metatron and feels guilty.
How was Dean telling Cas that information going to do anything but kick Cas when he’s already down. My opinion. Dean could have maybe asked Cas if he could translate the language but he has Ezekiel and probably thinks he would have jumped out and said if angels could.
You’re right Percysowner did not use the word lightly, I should have said something like “you seem to feel”. My bad. Believe it or not I’m usually talking to family members about something else while I’m trying to comment because I’m alone when I start and get interrupted in the middle. She did say that Dean and Zeke take away Sam’s conscienceness on a whim which I took as meaning lightly and that’s what put that idea in my head.
Percysowner, in my opinion, was saying that Dean gets to make wrong decisions over and over again and comes across more sympathetically and doesn’t suffer the consequences that Sam does when he makes a choice that is unpopular. I just don’t feel that is true. Fans may not have liked Sam’s decision about not looking for Dean last year but mostly criticized the writers not Sam. I just don’t see Dean as trying to control everyone or having a God complex. I see Dean as trying to do the right thing by the people he cares about especially when these people seem to ask for his feedback or opinion. Making decisions is very hard, especially when it involves other people and no decision is completely right or wrong or there would be no need for a decision to begin with. The other choice is to do nothing which is, IMO, making a decision without taking responsibility for it.
If memory serves me I don’t think Dean asked Ezekiel to save Cas or to kill the demons but he did ask for his help to bring back Charlie. I don’t think he thought of it as using Sam as a weapon but saving someone both he and Sam cared about and I think Sam would have agreed.
I will say that back in season 4 I didn’t read comments on web sites and saw everything from my own point of view and thought Sam had a valid point about using his powers for a good purpose. I thought Dean was totally wrong to criticize Sam about it until I realized that Sam was actually hooked on drinking the blood. So I probably would have been out of step with a lot of fans then too but Sam was making the best decision he felt he could at that time.
That’s my opinion on all of this and way too long a one at that but it is just my opinion.
I’ll start with a technical note if you are logged in (I always post logged in, so I don’t know if they are there unlogged) there are icons above the reply box. Between the eye and the 1,2,3 bullet point box there is a bubble with a tail if you copy what you want to quote, click that icon and paste into the box that appears, what you copied will come up in the quote box. You may have to add line breaks between paragraphs because they get deleted. You can also copy what you want to quote into the reply box, highlight it and then hit the quite icon. That seems to preserve formatting. Alternatively, you can type (quote)copy what you want to quote and (/quote) replace the parentheses with brackets and the quote will work. You can “stack” quote commands if you want quotes to appear within quotes. If you have questions, I’ll try to explain better.
[quote]While I understand where you are coming from to a point, I disagree with when you say that Dean is making this decision lightly. It is my understanding that Dean plans or planned on telling Sam about Ezekiel as soon as Sam is strong enough to stay alive long enough to make a decision or at least not in a coma. Remember that Dean was not privy to Sam’s conversations while he was in the coma so doesn’t know that Sam was so accepting of death. [/quote]
I was responding to comments that were saying that the ONLY thing Dean had done wrong was to save Sam’s life. My problem how Dean has handled it since then. The fact that DEAN doesn’t want to give Sam a chance to control his life and his body because Dean is afraid Sam will make a choice Dean doesn’t like doesn’t mean that I don’t think that SAM has the absolute right to make that choice, even if it costs him his life. At a minimum Sam has the right to know AT ALL TIMES what his body is doing, not have it hidden from him.
[quote]I just don’t understand all your animosity towards Dean that seems to go back years.[/quote]
I stated in my response that I realized that we didn’t see this the same way. I have no desire to convince you of my views. I simply want to express them. We all come to this show and this discussion with our own points of view and they differ. Similarly I don’t see a need to make you understand why I feel the way I do about Dean. I have explained my feelings about Dean many times. I know that many don’t agree with them and that is fine.
Well, thanks for the technical advice it is much appreciated. I do always post logged in as well. I will say this one last thing to you personally because I want you to know that I do understand and respect your comments. I am defending Dean’s decision from a point of view I have of the show as total fantasy. In my real life I have been married to my husband for 45 years and he is everything to me but if he had expressed the feelings that Sam did I would have given him a hug and a kiss and said my goodbyes and wanted him to do the same for me. I also abhor lying in real life and especially hate it as a plot device when the truth would have cleared up a situation in a NY minute.
All that being said I find this show for some reason compelling if far fetched. I watch other shows faithfully and enjoy them but I don’t read others comments and don’t have any interest in doing so.
I read your comment about your Mother a while back so I get why this whole plot device is distasteful to you and I personally don’t care for it myself but it does make for a compelling conundrum for the show. So, I am defending Dean not from a morality stand point but from a storyline view point and because I like the character Dean. I hope this makes sense to you and you take this as I mean it which is as a peace offering. I know I’m not going to change your views or you mine but commenting can definitely be a means at venting over the direction the show takes our favorite characters. Quite frankly I think it’s a little nuts on my part that I’m so invested in this show and don’t know why I am but enjoy knowing other people are as well. I’m just grateful we got through another “dog episode” without Dean looking like a total moron.