Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 9×12 – “Sharp Teeth”
Warning: If you have not seen tonight’s episode, “Sharp Teeth,” then beware spoilers ahead! (From Alice – please take the snark you’re about to read in good humored fun.)
Summary: This episode opens with Farmer Jim plowing out of his house because someone’s tipping cows in his pasture. He shoots at the cowtipper, who runs through the woods like he just figured out that Gretel was dinner. Cowtipper gets hit by a car and lo and behold we see that cowtipper is our own puppet loving, normalized hunter Garth.
The episode follows the nearly divorced Winchesters as they meet up in a hospital room to look over the recently absent Garth. I figure they must have invested some money in the hospital set so we got to use it, right? Awkward, in need of counseling Winchesters wake up Sleeping Beauty and he freaks out. He escapes and the brothers agree to try and find him together. At this point, though, I will say that a miracle occurred in Dean being honest about his mark of Cain tattoo. He didn’t lie and say it was the product of a drunken encounter with a hooker and her tattoo loving pimp. He admitted it was the mark of Cain and Sam cared for about two seconds. No bigs, right?
Anyway, fast forward through Dean trying to shake Sam off the case and Sam being like nuh-uh Mr. Sandman and we find out that Garth is married to a resident of MTV’s newest hit show and is himself a not-so-Teen Wolf. They belong to the Stepford Wolves Club where you wear bullets with your pantaloons and eat beast for supper. Also, if you didn’t get it, Reverend Jim is trying to achieve peace with the humans even though the humans killed his wife. You see, John Winchester again fails. Fails in analogy. (Note: This John Winchester brought to you by the writer of abandoning John, bad father John, and the maker of Kristy.)
Dean proceeds to have an uncomfortable dinner filled with blood, guts, and the destruction of the last thing in the world he was holding sacred. No, not the brotherhood. Pie. Pie is now forever destroyed. RIP Pie.
As the mystery unfolds, Dean encounters a rabid sheriff looming over the carcass of Bambi’s mother. Sam shows up and Sheriff tries to kill them but brojo (Brother Mojo) wins out. Too bad that’s the only time we see it this episode. So Dean’s all like we need to kill Garth and Sam’s like whoa there buckaroo, let’s think this through. Dean’s like whatever, okay. I have a gorgeous Ginger Beard that will protect me from your wily ways, Sam Winchester. Anyway, Sam splits to go get Garth while Dean goes to confront “You Coulda Been John Winchester” Reverend. Dean wants to kill him but the marvel of his ginger beard makes him stop and consider and as he already has a soft spot for letting werewolves go….well you know what happens. Back to Sam and we get to see him suffer his 5414th blow to the head. He now can sign up for the NFL concussion insurance group. Finally.
In an homage to “The Benders” and Glass’s season seven “Adventures in Babysitting,” Sam gets tied up like a girl to a 1910s railroad track and the train is Alpha Wife female who does not like the whole peace loving humanity of her husband. They gots an apocalypse to get going – All Hail Fenrir! So in this week’s mythology arc, we get to return to Norse Mythology but without Loki, which is no real Norse mythology at all. Just saying. She does some monologue about humans being bad, destructive – the usual demon, pagan god, angel rhetoric about humanity. Garth tries to turn 1980s Michael J. Fox while Sam ponders when Ginger Beard will arrive, which right on cue, he does! GingerDean! to the rescue! The magical powers of his facial hair empower him to stab cousin Daryl Wolf with a silver blade and then turn on the worst version of a stepmother since Germany circa 17th century fairytellings. Stepmonster gets ganked and all is well….until….
Final scenes are Garth centric apologizing for Kevin’s death but GingerDean is so GuiltDean and takes on that blame on his own. There’s awkward guest star hugging like last week and then the much heralded Bob Singer talk on the Impala trope – this time Sam basically disowns Dean. I have many feelings at this scene and will hold my commentary.
And my argument that we are smack back in the middle of seasons four and five lives on.
Next week: Costumes.
What I Liked:
1. Garth return. I miss Mr. Fizzles though. Fail, show.
2. Ginger Beard!
3. Ragnarok was a pretty cool reference. I am a fan of the Prose and Poetic Eddas.
What I Didn’t Like:
1. Sam not really caring about the mark of CAIN? It was like a two second reaction? Really? Has Soulless returned and no one told me????
2. Sam’s disavowal of Dean. No. Just NO.
3. SAM. Stop it, show. Stop doing this to Sam.
Questions of the week since I have no speculations:
So will the mark of Cain have any effect or is it simply a mark?
Is Sam simply mad or is this some narrative turn the show is making in the brothers’ relationship?
Will Garth and Bess have wolf babies?
And where the hell is Crowley?!
Please share your feelings, theories, and thoughts below.
(From Alice – Reminder of the rules. Keep it positive and constructive. I know this wasn’t a stellar ep, so joking around about some things is okay, but no excessive negativity or disrespect of other posters. That’s all I ask!)
Sam’s reaction makes sense, I’m surprised you don’t like it, considering you’re feelings regarding what Dean did to Sam. Sam’s pissed and Dean just saying “we’re family” isn’t going to cut it anymore as an excuse.
Sam’s reaction makes sense, I’m surprised you don’t like it, considering you’re feelings regarding what Dean did to Sam. Sam’s pissed and Dean just saying “we’re family” isn’t going to cut it anymore as an excuse.
I’m most upset that Sam left behind that pristine 1969 Dodge Dart! Yes, the bright blue doesn’t exactly suit the moose, but even the leather seats were gorgeous! That was not the crap classic cars of season seven. I assume he wasn’t using the green Thunderbird in the MOL garage because that is a very small car for a big guy. Hey Sam, if you aren’t using the car, can I have it?
I get the speech and I don’t think it was out of character. I’m still trying to figure out how you can work with your brother but he not be your brother. I really don’t blame Sam. He had such blind faith in his brother and the way he sees it, because he listened to Dean he blew the chance to close the gates of Hell and got possessed by an angel which got Kevin killed. I don’t see how he can ever trust. They don’t see things the same way, and probably never will.
I’m sorry, this isn’t a rant, but isn’t there a rule by now that villains should not be given scenery chewing time? I mean, she monologued long enough to have Dean show up and kill her? Has she not watched every single Bond film in history? Austin Powers? The Incredibles? “Oh Dean, you sly dog, you caught me monologuing!”
I’m at least glad Garth is happy. Hopefully he’ll learn that to stay that way, he must never look up Sam and Dean again! So, who becomes the new Bobby? Sam?
I’m most upset that Sam left behind that pristine 1969 Dodge Dart! Yes, the bright blue doesn’t exactly suit the moose, but even the leather seats were gorgeous! That was not the crap classic cars of season seven. I assume he wasn’t using the green Thunderbird in the MOL garage because that is a very small car for a big guy. Hey Sam, if you aren’t using the car, can I have it?
I get the speech and I don’t think it was out of character. I’m still trying to figure out how you can work with your brother but he not be your brother. I really don’t blame Sam. He had such blind faith in his brother and the way he sees it, because he listened to Dean he blew the chance to close the gates of Hell and got possessed by an angel which got Kevin killed. I don’t see how he can ever trust. They don’t see things the same way, and probably never will.
I’m sorry, this isn’t a rant, but isn’t there a rule by now that villains should not be given scenery chewing time? I mean, she monologued long enough to have Dean show up and kill her? Has she not watched every single Bond film in history? Austin Powers? The Incredibles? “Oh Dean, you sly dog, you caught me monologuing!”
I’m at least glad Garth is happy. Hopefully he’ll learn that to stay that way, he must never look up Sam and Dean again! So, who becomes the new Bobby? Sam?
Ha, I laughed out loud while reading this. My friend and I had just discussed Sam’s concussion prone life about 30 minutes ago. And how he should be a bit disabled by now, as many as he has endured.
I get the talk. I think it’s just the beginning of them trying to figure out how to be brothers and work together. Often a struggle for any family that works together. I am sure many a family business has the same issues. e.g. bossy older brother, younger brother who wants to do anything but the family business, overbearing dad, etc.
I think it’s a start. It wouldn’t be the two bros we love if they got it all out in one chat. Would it?
Yeah, mark of Cain, no big deal. That was kind of odd. Definitely a shocker Dean shared it tho. That did show some growth.
Jared said the boys have a long road to re-connecting. Definitely a reversal of S4/S5. Which is EXACTLY why that mark of Cain SCARES me!!!!!!
Ha, I laughed out loud while reading this. My friend and I had just discussed Sam’s concussion prone life about 30 minutes ago. And how he should be a bit disabled by now, as many as he has endured.
I get the talk. I think it’s just the beginning of them trying to figure out how to be brothers and work together. Often a struggle for any family that works together. I am sure many a family business has the same issues. e.g. bossy older brother, younger brother who wants to do anything but the family business, overbearing dad, etc.
I think it’s a start. It wouldn’t be the two bros we love if they got it all out in one chat. Would it?
Yeah, mark of Cain, no big deal. That was kind of odd. Definitely a shocker Dean shared it tho. That did show some growth.
Jared said the boys have a long road to re-connecting. Definitely a reversal of S4/S5. Which is EXACTLY why that mark of Cain SCARES me!!!!!!
Well, I didn’t get what Sam was saying; but from all this I guess y’all took it to mean they aren’t brothers any more. Which is just silly. You can get as mad as you want at siblings; but in the end, they are still family. Dean is right about that. I get Sam wants more than just that. It is what it is though.
I think they are both just grieving Kevin; but in different ways.
Oh, and I hope they KEEP the beard. It does make it hard to concentrate on the story though.
Well, I didn’t get what Sam was saying; but from all this I guess y’all took it to mean they aren’t brothers any more. Which is just silly. You can get as mad as you want at siblings; but in the end, they are still family. Dean is right about that. I get Sam wants more than just that. It is what it is though.
I think they are both just grieving Kevin; but in different ways.
Oh, and I hope they KEEP the beard. It does make it hard to concentrate on the story though.
I thought sam’s speech was dead on. It comes as no surprise that Sam would find it hard to trust dean. as i recall, Dean gave Sam a similar speech in s5 and it took dean until point of no return to have faith in Sam. Dean tricked Sam and lied to him for months, this coming after his speech to Sam in sacrifice. The point Sam was making was quite clear to me. Yes he chose to stop the trials but he did so based on his trust in his brother who basically expressed his total faith in Sam and let him know he wasn’t a failure in his eyes. Then dean’s immediate act is lying to Sam, which goes against everything dean promised him in sacrifice. Dean uses the fact that they are family as an excuse. What Sam was saying was that they always use that excuse for everything that’s gone wrong between them and they can’t do that anymore. Dean has to earn Sam’s trust again. What Sam was also saying was that yes they will work together….but as for being brothers…, well it was all over sam’s face, if they are to be brothers, they have to work on that too.. sam didn’t disown dean. it was rather obvious, at least to me, that what sam was saying was that yes, they will work together, but they also have to work together at being brothers. of course they are family, sam knows that,. what sam is, albeit subtlely saying, is that that’s not enough ..a relationship isn’t strong just because one is related…you can be family and not have a strong loving relationship….no for their brotherhood to be strong they have to work on being brothers….that’s exactly what Sam was saying….they need to work together..on that too. Looks like dean got the message and agreed…..that’s an amazing and extremely important first step in fixing what’s wrong…..kudos to Adam glass for having the boys take the first step 😉
as for the werewolf stuff, i had to watch a second time for it to be a bit more interesting. it’s always more interesting on a second watch. i do like garth though and it’s always good to see him.
loved the car sam was driving, even the color, it’s gotta be love to leave a car like that behind without a second look. love that he hit the mol garage.
always enjoy when we get the repeaters. did anyone else also get the urge to tell reverend jim that they hoped his freaking apple pie was worth it? no? just me?
and just a question…was the sheriff the same guy who played the cop in asylum? it sure looked like him.
anyway so looking forward to seeing sam next week in shorts…..yummy
and really looking forward to the slow but definite return of the boys true, mature and stronger than ever brother relationship that will finally rear it’s beautiful head.
I thought sam’s speech was dead on. It comes as no surprise that Sam would find it hard to trust dean. as i recall, Dean gave Sam a similar speech in s5 and it took dean until point of no return to have faith in Sam. Dean tricked Sam and lied to him for months, this coming after his speech to Sam in sacrifice. The point Sam was making was quite clear to me. Yes he chose to stop the trials but he did so based on his trust in his brother who basically expressed his total faith in Sam and let him know he wasn’t a failure in his eyes. Then dean’s immediate act is lying to Sam, which goes against everything dean promised him in sacrifice. Dean uses the fact that they are family as an excuse. What Sam was saying was that they always use that excuse for everything that’s gone wrong between them and they can’t do that anymore. Dean has to earn Sam’s trust again. What Sam was also saying was that yes they will work together….but as for being brothers…, well it was all over sam’s face, if they are to be brothers, they have to work on that too.. sam didn’t disown dean. it was rather obvious, at least to me, that what sam was saying was that yes, they will work together, but they also have to work together at being brothers. of course they are family, sam knows that,. what sam is, albeit subtlely saying, is that that’s not enough ..a relationship isn’t strong just because one is related…you can be family and not have a strong loving relationship….no for their brotherhood to be strong they have to work on being brothers….that’s exactly what Sam was saying….they need to work together..on that too. Looks like dean got the message and agreed…..that’s an amazing and extremely important first step in fixing what’s wrong…..kudos to Adam glass for having the boys take the first step 😉
as for the werewolf stuff, i had to watch a second time for it to be a bit more interesting. it’s always more interesting on a second watch. i do like garth though and it’s always good to see him.
loved the car sam was driving, even the color, it’s gotta be love to leave a car like that behind without a second look. love that he hit the mol garage.
always enjoy when we get the repeaters. did anyone else also get the urge to tell reverend jim that they hoped his freaking apple pie was worth it? no? just me?
and just a question…was the sheriff the same guy who played the cop in asylum? it sure looked like him.
anyway so looking forward to seeing sam next week in shorts…..yummy
and really looking forward to the slow but definite return of the boys true, mature and stronger than ever brother relationship that will finally rear it’s beautiful head.
I can’t do this. This episode. NO. Stop it.
HOW could Sam say that? Of course Dean is his brother! He did the things he did out of love. Maybe he was wrong but he had the right intentions. I understand he’s mad and I understand Dean screwed up here, but disowning him? Seriously? After all they’ve been though how can he say that?
And barely a reaction about the Mark of Cain? It doesn’t matter how angry you are at someone, when they take on a biblical curse you take notice!
I love Sam but after this episode I just want to smack him right over his over-sized head.
I can’t do this. This episode. NO. Stop it.
HOW could Sam say that? Of course Dean is his brother! He did the things he did out of love. Maybe he was wrong but he had the right intentions. I understand he’s mad and I understand Dean screwed up here, but disowning him? Seriously? After all they’ve been though how can he say that?
And barely a reaction about the Mark of Cain? It doesn’t matter how angry you are at someone, when they take on a biblical curse you take notice!
I love Sam but after this episode I just want to smack him right over his over-sized head.
It has always bothered me that Sam has not come right out and said “Dean, stop making my decisions for me.”
Which in turn led me to the question – Why can’t Dean live without Sam?
I know Dean says he doesn’t want to live/do the job/W.H.Y. without Sam, but he’s maniacal about it.
It’s made me wonder if Dean actually can’t be without Sam. Some mystical attachment perhaps?
Hmmmm……..
It has always bothered me that Sam has not come right out and said “Dean, stop making my decisions for me.”
Which in turn led me to the question – Why can’t Dean live without Sam?
I know Dean says he doesn’t want to live/do the job/W.H.Y. without Sam, but he’s maniacal about it.
It’s made me wonder if Dean actually can’t be without Sam. Some mystical attachment perhaps?
Hmmmm……..
You may be right nappi815 about what the writers meant. The way I see it, a bad habit is something you can break. BUT, a personality trait is something that is a part of who you are. Like it or not, you have to accept those traits in people. After all these years, we all know one of Dean’s traits, is that he will ALWAYS opt to save Sam. Selling his soul proved that. Sam knows this better than anyone. Just saying…
You may be right nappi815 about what the writers meant. The way I see it, a bad habit is something you can break. BUT, a personality trait is something that is a part of who you are. Like it or not, you have to accept those traits in people. After all these years, we all know one of Dean’s traits, is that he will ALWAYS opt to save Sam. Selling his soul proved that. Sam knows this better than anyone. Just saying…
Sam reacted about the same to the mark of Cain as Dean reacted in season 5 to Sam being Lucifer’s vessel: barely at all, in a “what else can go wrong/I can’t deal with it” way.
I guess the problem with that story is that with so much Dean POV, some people don’t think he did anything wrong. Dean might love Sam, but it’s twisted and needy and hurtful to Sam. Dean is holding on so tight that he’s pushing Sam away.
I’m so glad Sam is not taking this lying down. Dean did betray him and he needs to know it. Sam cannot trust him right now and Dean also had to hear that and hopefully understand the damage done.
Unfortunately the dialogue was awful and I apologize but I can’t come up with a joke to soften it.
It would be so great if Sam’s speeches weren’t open to interpretation because of weak writing, because he basically said the same thing Dean said after Ruby. He angry, he can’t trust his brother and he doesn’t know if they can ever be the same again. He doesn’t want to be close emotionally to Dean right now. I think that’s what he meant about not being brothers… I don’t understand why he wants to be around him though. It’s clearly done for plot reasons, not because it makes any sense for the character.
Nobody got angry at Dean in season 5, why can’t Sam be angry at Dean’s betrayal too?
Sam reacted about the same to the mark of Cain as Dean reacted in season 5 to Sam being Lucifer’s vessel: barely at all, in a “what else can go wrong/I can’t deal with it” way.
I guess the problem with that story is that with so much Dean POV, some people don’t think he did anything wrong. Dean might love Sam, but it’s twisted and needy and hurtful to Sam. Dean is holding on so tight that he’s pushing Sam away.
I’m so glad Sam is not taking this lying down. Dean did betray him and he needs to know it. Sam cannot trust him right now and Dean also had to hear that and hopefully understand the damage done.
Unfortunately the dialogue was awful and I apologize but I can’t come up with a joke to soften it.
It would be so great if Sam’s speeches weren’t open to interpretation because of weak writing, because he basically said the same thing Dean said after Ruby. He angry, he can’t trust his brother and he doesn’t know if they can ever be the same again. He doesn’t want to be close emotionally to Dean right now. I think that’s what he meant about not being brothers… I don’t understand why he wants to be around him though. It’s clearly done for plot reasons, not because it makes any sense for the character.
Nobody got angry at Dean in season 5, why can’t Sam be angry at Dean’s betrayal too?
PENNY JAIME, I don’t agree. Dean can’t change who he is, but he can change his behavior. He has to learn that there are lines he cannot cross and the consequences if he does. If he can’t do that, then Sam would have to leave and that would be incredibly depressing to me. I want them to repair the relationship.
PENNY JAIME, I don’t agree. Dean can’t change who he is, but he can change his behavior. He has to learn that there are lines he cannot cross and the consequences if he does. If he can’t do that, then Sam would have to leave and that would be incredibly depressing to me. I want them to repair the relationship.
I was so excited when that final conversation came around, and then…it just fizzled. It was so promising during the episode, like when Dean tried to send Sam away initially, and when he gave him the reasons why, Sam just calmly replied, “I hear you,” before they teamed up to go to Bess’s house.
And then the end came, and it was lovely and honest, and truth be told, I actually started to tear up with (and this is so not the accurate quote) “If you want to work together, we’ll work together. But as brothers…” And I thought, “here it is, Sam is going to say something beautiful and profound, and it won’t bring them back together quite yet, but it will be a step forward…”
But then it was “Those are my terms.”
Whaaaa? Your terms for being brothers, or your terms for working together?
Don’t get me wrong, I love Sam, and I love the fact that they are exploring the boys’ relationship more, but Sam’s dialogue is written like those head injuries really are starting to affect him (and I say that as someone who has had head injuries, although way less than Sam-honestly, the man has to have divine intervention at this point, since his brain should be mush).
I’m also starting to wonder if the Mark of Cain makes it so that Dean is incapable of sparing anyone he sets out to kill. That bit of knife work with the sheriff was rather quick on the draw-not that Dean couldn’t do it, but all of his kills tonight were one shot or one hit, there wasn’t any need to struggle.
And I agree with you JuliaG, I think Sam’s reaction to the Mark was one of not wanting to have one more thing to worry about at the moment.
Sorry my mistakes
Sorry my mistakes
[quote name=”Alize”]I was so excited when that final conversation came around, and then…it just fizzled. It was so promising during the episode, like when Dean tried to send Sam away initially, and when he gave him the reasons why, Sam just calmly replied, “I hear you,” before they teamed up to go to Bess’s house.
And then the end came, and it was lovely and honest, and truth be told, I actually started to tear up with (and this is so not the accurate quote) “If you want to work together, we’ll work together. But as brothers…” And I thought, “here it is, Sam is going to say something beautiful and profound, and it won’t bring them back together quite yet, but it will be a step forward…”
But then it was “Those are my terms.”
Whaaaa? Your terms for being brothers, or your terms for working together?
Don’t get me wrong, I love Sam, and I love the fact that they are exploring the boys’ relationship more, but Sam’s dialogue is written like those head injuries really are starting to affect him (and I say that as someone who has had head injuries, although way less than Sam-honestly, the man has to have divine intervention at this point, since his brain should be mush).
I’m also starting to wonder if the Mark of Cain makes it so that Dean is incapable of sparing anyone he sets out to kill. That bit of knife work with the sheriff was rather quick on the draw-not that Dean couldn’t do it, but all of his kills tonight were one shot or one hit, there wasn’t any need to struggle.
And I agree with you JuliaG, I think Sam’s reaction to the Mark was one of not wanting to have one more thing to worry about at the moment.[/quote]
I read it same stopping himself from saying something worse that he wouldn’t be able to take back.
[quote]I was so excited when that final conversation came around, and then…it just fizzled. It was so promising during the episode, like when Dean tried to send Sam away initially, and when he gave him the reasons why, Sam just calmly replied, “I hear you,” before they teamed up to go to Bess’s house.
And then the end came, and it was lovely and honest, and truth be told, I actually started to tear up with (and this is so not the accurate quote) “If you want to work together, we’ll work together. But as brothers…” And I thought, “here it is, Sam is going to say something beautiful and profound, and it won’t bring them back together quite yet, but it will be a step forward…”
But then it was “Those are my terms.”
Whaaaa? Your terms for being brothers, or your terms for working together?
Don’t get me wrong, I love Sam, and I love the fact that they are exploring the boys’ relationship more, but Sam’s dialogue is written like those head injuries really are starting to affect him (and I say that as someone who has had head injuries, although way less than Sam-honestly, the man has to have divine intervention at this point, since his brain should be mush).
I’m also starting to wonder if the Mark of Cain makes it so that Dean is incapable of sparing anyone he sets out to kill. That bit of knife work with the sheriff was rather quick on the draw-not that Dean couldn’t do it, but all of his kills tonight were one shot or one hit, there wasn’t any need to struggle.
And I agree with you JuliaG, I think Sam’s reaction to the Mark was one of not wanting to have one more thing to worry about at the moment.[/quote]
I read it same stopping himself from saying something worse that he wouldn’t be able to take back.
Great ep! Loved the fact that Dean actually told Sam about the Mark of Cain and working with Crowley … maybe a Winchester can change! I was pretty happy because I probably would’ve screamed at the TV if he’d lied about it but no need!
I do wonder if it’s the last we’ll see of Garth though … was on the fence about him at first but he grew on me and it makes me sad. But, unlike Cas who Dean told to live a normal life earlier in the season, he has a wife, a family and as much as he said he wants to help he’s better off where he is. It would be nice if at least one of their friends didn’t end up killed horribly and got to lead that Apple pie life, or as close as you can being a werewolf!
The ending, seriously Sam just abandoned that beautiful car? I agree Alice, he should have taken it … if Cas can have a car, Sam should have one too and it’s not as awesome as Baby but still! I am glad they’re at least working together again, even if all’s not forgiven but it’s a step. Sam has every right to be upset still but it won’t last, it never does. And as much as Dean was trying to push Sam away the whole episode I knew he’d change his mind by the end of the episode. I do like the fact that the writers try and not have them forgive eachother too easily as that would be unrealistic. Not that any of us have to make the decisions they do in regards to eachother or friends and I’m grateful for that! My brother and I have been through some bad times and always made up in the end because I love him but our problems are nothing in comparison and thank Cas for that!
Great ep! Loved the fact that Dean actually told Sam about the Mark of Cain and working with Crowley … maybe a Winchester can change! I was pretty happy because I probably would’ve screamed at the TV if he’d lied about it but no need!
I do wonder if it’s the last we’ll see of Garth though … was on the fence about him at first but he grew on me and it makes me sad. But, unlike Cas who Dean told to live a normal life earlier in the season, he has a wife, a family and as much as he said he wants to help he’s better off where he is. It would be nice if at least one of their friends didn’t end up killed horribly and got to lead that Apple pie life, or as close as you can being a werewolf!
The ending, seriously Sam just abandoned that beautiful car? I agree Alice, he should have taken it … if Cas can have a car, Sam should have one too and it’s not as awesome as Baby but still! I am glad they’re at least working together again, even if all’s not forgiven but it’s a step. Sam has every right to be upset still but it won’t last, it never does. And as much as Dean was trying to push Sam away the whole episode I knew he’d change his mind by the end of the episode. I do like the fact that the writers try and not have them forgive eachother too easily as that would be unrealistic. Not that any of us have to make the decisions they do in regards to eachother or friends and I’m grateful for that! My brother and I have been through some bad times and always made up in the end because I love him but our problems are nothing in comparison and thank Cas for that!
[quote name=”alice”]I really don’t blame Sam. He had such blind faith in his brother and the way he sees it, because he listened to Dean he blew the chance to close the gates of Hell and got possessed by an angel which got Kevin killed. I don’t see how he can ever trust.[/quote]
This is exactly what the Dean’s fans said at the beginning of season 5 when Dean let Sam go by saying that he couldn’t trust Sam anymore (the scene at the hospital parking lot).
It also correlates with the scene from 9.02 when Sam contemplated what he did during season 4, releasing Lucifer and all that resulting in the death of many people.
It’s probably just my interpretation but I tend to try to see behind the lines of what the show as a whole trying to convey this season. It’s like the show is trying to say this :
“You remember season 4 Sam? Have you ever wonder why Dean was so bitter to you during season 8 when you didn’t look for him? Why did he hit you by piling up your sin over and over again? You probably cannot understand how Dean felt at the time because you don’t experience what Dean experienced. You don’t feel what Dean felt.
Now you know how Dean feels 4 season’s ago, right? You wonder why Dean cannot trust you again no matter how many times you apologize or how many times you repent. Remember your speech at the end of season 8 “Who will you trust if you can’t trust me, Dean? Another angel, another vampire?” You implore Dean, Why, why, why can’t you trust me Dean? Have I repent enough?”
Now that Dean do the same thing and you feel betrayed, can you recall those feeling of familial rejection and detachment that you felt during season 5? THAT’S exactly what Dean feels right now. It hurts, right Sam, being betrayed by your most trusted person. It hurts, right Sam? No one can fault you of your reaction of disowning Dean because Dean did the same thing at season 5. Why shouldn’t you?”
Now this is also a calling to all fans who were very vocal on their reactions in defending Dean during season 5. Now that Dean did the same thing what do they feel. Also for Sam’s girls who were rallying and protecting Sam, saying Sam had felt sorry enough and Dean was cruel for not forgiving Sam. Now, will they say that Sam is being too cruel for disowning Dean? Because after all what Den did is just trying to save Sam in anyway he knew how.
Or do we have double standard for our fav character?
I know you can’t blame Sam this time, Alice. I can’t remember what your reaction during season 5 but I do hope that you too were not blaming Dean for not forgiving Sam during season 5.
For Sam’s fans out there, remember Dean did the same thing to Sam during season 5, what did your reaction at the time?
For Dean’s fans out there, Well, this man had it coming. Perhaps now that he knows what Sam feels, he will stop accusing Sam of his past mistakes and learn to really let go.
I think the show did a great job at trying to make the boys understand each other without using so many words. Notice the word TRYING here. These are guys, they don’t do chick flick moments, they don’t talk their problems during a sleepover while braiding Sam’s hair. No, they speak with their action. Afterall action speaks louder, if only we know where to listen in.
[quote]I really don’t blame Sam. He had such blind faith in his brother and the way he sees it, because he listened to Dean he blew the chance to close the gates of Hell and got possessed by an angel which got Kevin killed. I don’t see how he can ever trust.[/quote]
This is exactly what the Dean’s fans said at the beginning of season 5 when Dean let Sam go by saying that he couldn’t trust Sam anymore (the scene at the hospital parking lot).
It also correlates with the scene from 9.02 when Sam contemplated what he did during season 4, releasing Lucifer and all that resulting in the death of many people.
It’s probably just my interpretation but I tend to try to see behind the lines of what the show as a whole trying to convey this season. It’s like the show is trying to say this :
“You remember season 4 Sam? Have you ever wonder why Dean was so bitter to you during season 8 when you didn’t look for him? Why did he hit you by piling up your sin over and over again? You probably cannot understand how Dean felt at the time because you don’t experience what Dean experienced. You don’t feel what Dean felt.
Now you know how Dean feels 4 season’s ago, right? You wonder why Dean cannot trust you again no matter how many times you apologize or how many times you repent. Remember your speech at the end of season 8 “Who will you trust if you can’t trust me, Dean? Another angel, another vampire?” You implore Dean, Why, why, why can’t you trust me Dean? Have I repent enough?”
Now that Dean do the same thing and you feel betrayed, can you recall those feeling of familial rejection and detachment that you felt during season 5? THAT’S exactly what Dean feels right now. It hurts, right Sam, being betrayed by your most trusted person. It hurts, right Sam? No one can fault you of your reaction of disowning Dean because Dean did the same thing at season 5. Why shouldn’t you?”
Now this is also a calling to all fans who were very vocal on their reactions in defending Dean during season 5. Now that Dean did the same thing what do they feel. Also for Sam’s girls who were rallying and protecting Sam, saying Sam had felt sorry enough and Dean was cruel for not forgiving Sam. Now, will they say that Sam is being too cruel for disowning Dean? Because after all what Den did is just trying to save Sam in anyway he knew how.
Or do we have double standard for our fav character?
I know you can’t blame Sam this time, Alice. I can’t remember what your reaction during season 5 but I do hope that you too were not blaming Dean for not forgiving Sam during season 5.
For Sam’s fans out there, remember Dean did the same thing to Sam during season 5, what did your reaction at the time?
For Dean’s fans out there, Well, this man had it coming. Perhaps now that he knows what Sam feels, he will stop accusing Sam of his past mistakes and learn to really let go.
I think the show did a great job at trying to make the boys understand each other without using so many words. Notice the word TRYING here. These are guys, they don’t do chick flick moments, they don’t talk their problems during a sleepover while braiding Sam’s hair. No, they speak with their action. Afterall action speaks louder, if only we know where to listen in.
A quick comment on the article itself, which I hope will be taken as constructive feedback and not negativity: Between this and Nate Winchester’s style of commentary, I tend to get irritated by some of the writing styles on this site. I don’t understand why snark and sarcasm should be accepted as humor when it merely paints the authors as disgruntled, choosing (per my inference) to mock the show rather than critique it. I know, I know, the show’s problematic areas tend to be cyclical and therefore there’s only so much that can be said in repetition… but maybe saying nothing (as per the “I will hold my commentary” statement) would work better?
Just my two cents, with no offense intended. I will refrain from reading this writer’s and N.W’s commentaries in future, which is my prerogative, as much as it is theirs to write as they wish. 🙂 And I still love this site! 😀 Peace!
A quick comment on the article itself, which I hope will be taken as constructive feedback and not negativity: Between this and Nate Winchester’s style of commentary, I tend to get irritated by some of the writing styles on this site. I don’t understand why snark and sarcasm should be accepted as humor when it merely paints the authors as disgruntled, choosing (per my inference) to mock the show rather than critique it. I know, I know, the show’s problematic areas tend to be cyclical and therefore there’s only so much that can be said in repetition… but maybe saying nothing (as per the “I will hold my commentary” statement) would work better?
Just my two cents, with no offense intended. I will refrain from reading this writer’s and N.W’s commentaries in future, which is my prerogative, as much as it is theirs to write as they wish. 🙂 And I still love this site! 😀 Peace!
My biggest issue with this ep was that Garth just didn’t feel like Garth to me. I get that he had a lot of guilt about messing up and getting bitten. But what happened to his confidence (“you’ve been Garthed”), his sense of humor, his bumbling good luck (“what did I miss?”)? I would think there would at least be a glimmer of the old Garth. Also, even though there was a lot going on in his own life, I still think he would have picked up on the tension between Sam and Dean. I kept waiting for the Garth pep talk, but it never came.
That beard almost makes up for it though. dayum.
My biggest issue with this ep was that Garth just didn’t feel like Garth to me. I get that he had a lot of guilt about messing up and getting bitten. But what happened to his confidence (“you’ve been Garthed”), his sense of humor, his bumbling good luck (“what did I miss?”)? I would think there would at least be a glimmer of the old Garth. Also, even though there was a lot going on in his own life, I still think he would have picked up on the tension between Sam and Dean. I kept waiting for the Garth pep talk, but it never came.
That beard almost makes up for it though. dayum.
Thanks for the review Alice. I’m still processing how i feel.
Thanks for the review Alice. I’m still processing how i feel.
actually I agree with Nickmaniac .. and I think we can say that.? The entire time I read it all I could think was man, she really hated this episode. Sounds like she’s really fed up with the show, why does she still watch it? I skipped through most of it because it was really negative. I don’t read Nate’s posts for the same reason. I usually enjoy Alice’s posts, maybe she was just off tonight, or really, really disappointed. I think she added that warning about the snark because after reread it, even she thought it was a bit much. lol.
On the episode.. it was… not what I expected. It seemed slow, a little boring, and i didn’t like the big bad. She was lame.
It was almost like the whole show was trying to teach Dean a lesson, he needed Sam… only to say, Ha! You can’t have him at the end. SIgh…
I was pissed at Dean in Season 5. Very, very angry!! I hated the way he treated Sam…. Now, yes, I am pissed at Sam. I hated the speech. I may understand where he is coming from, but he was so mean. 🙁
I was so stunned, I couldn’t even speak. I think I sat in my chair for like five minutes with my hand over my mouth, just completely shocked over Sam’s words.
Not really shocked over how he felt, or shock that he wants Dean to take him seriously and let him make his own decisions. Shocked over how harsh he was after Dean opened up.
I cried.
I love both of these guys, though I do have a slight preference for Sam and usually find it easier to figure him out. Not so much right now. 🙁
Dean was so tired, sad, a bit broken the whole episode. Wish Sam could’ve seen that.
actually I agree with Nickmaniac .. and I think we can say that.? The entire time I read it all I could think was man, she really hated this episode. Sounds like she’s really fed up with the show, why does she still watch it? I skipped through most of it because it was really negative. I don’t read Nate’s posts for the same reason. I usually enjoy Alice’s posts, maybe she was just off tonight, or really, really disappointed. I think she added that warning about the snark because after reread it, even she thought it was a bit much. lol.
On the episode.. it was… not what I expected. It seemed slow, a little boring, and i didn’t like the big bad. She was lame.
It was almost like the whole show was trying to teach Dean a lesson, he needed Sam… only to say, Ha! You can’t have him at the end. SIgh…
I was pissed at Dean in Season 5. Very, very angry!! I hated the way he treated Sam…. Now, yes, I am pissed at Sam. I hated the speech. I may understand where he is coming from, but he was so mean. 🙁
I was so stunned, I couldn’t even speak. I think I sat in my chair for like five minutes with my hand over my mouth, just completely shocked over Sam’s words.
Not really shocked over how he felt, or shock that he wants Dean to take him seriously and let him make his own decisions. Shocked over how harsh he was after Dean opened up.
I cried.
I love both of these guys, though I do have a slight preference for Sam and usually find it easier to figure him out. Not so much right now. 🙁
Dean was so tired, sad, a bit broken the whole episode. Wish Sam could’ve seen that.
When I first watched the episode I honestly couldn’t even understand what had just happened. It seemed so… wrong. I’ve watched the final scene a few times since and I think I get it now. The stuff Dean has done lately is the worst he’s ever done. Because of it, Sam’s faith in him is shattered. Sam has trusted and believed in Dean beyond all else. He has trusted Dean’s judgement when he wasn’t sure he could trust his own. He went along with Dean’s plans, both to not close he gates of hell, and to be possessed by Gadreel, because of that trust. He now sees that those were horrible decisions on Dean’s part. He feels that Dean took advantage of that trust by tricking him. In short; he feels betrayed. I don’t think that’s something anyone can forgive fast. It’s deeper than Dean just hurting him. I think it has completely changed the way Sam looks at Dean. Compassion and understanding are things Sam generally does very well, but I don’t think he’s ready to feel them yet. He’s too hurt and too angry for that now. He was harsh in that scene, too harsh IMO, but I’m not sure there’s another way he could have been. He’s angry and disappointed in his brother, he feels tricked and betrayed by the person he trusted the most. We know the boys don’t take that in stride.
I wish he had been more compassionate, the scene would have been a lot less painful to watch if he had, but I don’t think he could be. Not yet. He didn’t take any pleasure in hurting Dean, he just told him the truth. He doesn’t trust Dean right now. He’ll work with him because it makes sense, but he’s not ready to start to repair their relationship. Hopefully in time he’ll start to understand, and the boys can rebuild their fractured trust. As much as I hated that final scene, as much as it hut, I’m thinking it actually make sense. The fact that this isn’t an issue they can just slap a bandaid on has me hoping that it can lead to some real character and relationship growth for the boys. And they’ll get through this somehow. Because they’re the Winchesters and they’ve been to hell and back for each other and they care about each other. This is going to be a hard one to heal, they’ll do it. They’ve been through worse than this.
When I first watched the episode I honestly couldn’t even understand what had just happened. It seemed so… wrong. I’ve watched the final scene a few times since and I think I get it now. The stuff Dean has done lately is the worst he’s ever done. Because of it, Sam’s faith in him is shattered. Sam has trusted and believed in Dean beyond all else. He has trusted Dean’s judgement when he wasn’t sure he could trust his own. He went along with Dean’s plans, both to not close he gates of hell, and to be possessed by Gadreel, because of that trust. He now sees that those were horrible decisions on Dean’s part. He feels that Dean took advantage of that trust by tricking him. In short; he feels betrayed. I don’t think that’s something anyone can forgive fast. It’s deeper than Dean just hurting him. I think it has completely changed the way Sam looks at Dean. Compassion and understanding are things Sam generally does very well, but I don’t think he’s ready to feel them yet. He’s too hurt and too angry for that now. He was harsh in that scene, too harsh IMO, but I’m not sure there’s another way he could have been. He’s angry and disappointed in his brother, he feels tricked and betrayed by the person he trusted the most. We know the boys don’t take that in stride.
I wish he had been more compassionate, the scene would have been a lot less painful to watch if he had, but I don’t think he could be. Not yet. He didn’t take any pleasure in hurting Dean, he just told him the truth. He doesn’t trust Dean right now. He’ll work with him because it makes sense, but he’s not ready to start to repair their relationship. Hopefully in time he’ll start to understand, and the boys can rebuild their fractured trust. As much as I hated that final scene, as much as it hut, I’m thinking it actually make sense. The fact that this isn’t an issue they can just slap a bandaid on has me hoping that it can lead to some real character and relationship growth for the boys. And they’ll get through this somehow. Because they’re the Winchesters and they’ve been to hell and back for each other and they care about each other. This is going to be a hard one to heal, they’ll do it. They’ve been through worse than this.
Loved the snarky review. Very funny.
As for the ep, very very average for me. The whole Garth is a werewolf storyline just felt off, despite some wonderful acting by DJ.
And I can’t help but wonder, shouldn’t Sam start carrying a pocket knife in his jeans? I mean, the man gets tied up at least once every other episode, you’d think he’d be better prepared by now, right? Or maybe he really should just start wearing a helmet wherever he goes. 😆
Aqualilies, you summed it up nicely for me in your thoughts by the way.
Those boys…yes, we know they must yet again go to the very bottom of the pit before finding they can climb their way out. We know the drill and even though I can understand Sam’s POV here, I still wanted to punch him dead in the face last night. LOL! The look on Dean’s face though…oh man. That was beyond heartbreaking.
I have to say though, no one plays the “I hate you” – “I hate you more” roles better than the J’s. They do it so well and I think it’s part of the reason it hits fans so hard…it’s so darn believable. Sharp Teeth indeed. Ouch!
I suspect the Mark of Cain deal will come into play as the big thing that ultimately draws the boys back together and gives Sam a reason to give a crap about his brother again.
Was Sam’s car a Dart? And does anyone know how Sam actually FIT into the car? I think he’s taller than the car is long. ha!
Loved the snarky review. Very funny.
As for the ep, very very average for me. The whole Garth is a werewolf storyline just felt off, despite some wonderful acting by DJ.
And I can’t help but wonder, shouldn’t Sam start carrying a pocket knife in his jeans? I mean, the man gets tied up at least once every other episode, you’d think he’d be better prepared by now, right? Or maybe he really should just start wearing a helmet wherever he goes. 😆
Aqualilies, you summed it up nicely for me in your thoughts by the way.
Those boys…yes, we know they must yet again go to the very bottom of the pit before finding they can climb their way out. We know the drill and even though I can understand Sam’s POV here, I still wanted to punch him dead in the face last night. LOL! The look on Dean’s face though…oh man. That was beyond heartbreaking.
I have to say though, no one plays the “I hate you” – “I hate you more” roles better than the J’s. They do it so well and I think it’s part of the reason it hits fans so hard…it’s so darn believable. Sharp Teeth indeed. Ouch!
I suspect the Mark of Cain deal will come into play as the big thing that ultimately draws the boys back together and gives Sam a reason to give a crap about his brother again.
Was Sam’s car a Dart? And does anyone know how Sam actually FIT into the car? I think he’s taller than the car is long. ha!
When I watched the episode I was ranting and raving after Sam’s speech. “What kind of ultimatum is that?! Sam’s saying either they can work OR be brothers??!”
BUT my boyfriend who sat next to me insisted that was not what Sam said. His interpretation of what Sam said was, “you want to be work partners that’s fine – we work good together; but if you want to be brothers, that’s going to take more than just getting back into the routine of the job – you have to change.”
It makes sense to me. Dean just wanted to hop in the car and get back to business as usual, with the typical “we’re family” excuse as a cover-all. Sam’s saying “no, not this time – this time we actually have to work through this.” Maybe Sam will take Dean to the light at the end of the tunnel, after all. I just want the healing to start sooner rather than later.
When I watched the episode I was ranting and raving after Sam’s speech. “What kind of ultimatum is that?! Sam’s saying either they can work OR be brothers??!”
BUT my boyfriend who sat next to me insisted that was not what Sam said. His interpretation of what Sam said was, “you want to be work partners that’s fine – we work good together; but if you want to be brothers, that’s going to take more than just getting back into the routine of the job – you have to change.”
It makes sense to me. Dean just wanted to hop in the car and get back to business as usual, with the typical “we’re family” excuse as a cover-all. Sam’s saying “no, not this time – this time we actually have to work through this.” Maybe Sam will take Dean to the light at the end of the tunnel, after all. I just want the healing to start sooner rather than later.
i think i’m in agreement aqualillies and it was hard to watch, but it was also a necessary step in repairing the damage, and like it or not, even though it wasn’t intentional or out of hate, but of love, dean screwed up and he screwed up big. we all said it. we all knew this was coming and now that it has, i find it odd that so many are shocked at sam for feeling the way he does and is acting accordingly.
i hate to say it but there is a double standard with alot of the fandom when it comes to sam and dean. it’s always been and there’s nothing that can be done about that. 🙁 i’ve posted once before that whatever happens to one brother, eventually happens to the other. njspn said it in another post, that it’s so the other brother can walk a mile in the other’s proverbial shoe. this is not the first instance where the writers have done this, but alas, so often i’ve read posts when, even though they have both done the same thing, it’s usually sam that ends up with the brunt of the fandom’s disappointment and anger. i always find that unfair, but it is what it is, which is why i guess some of us out there defend sam and try to point out his pov.
i’d like to point out something i’ve noticed throughout this episode regarding sam. throughout the eppy, dean was the one who tried to get sam to leave and sam was the one who stayed despite dean’s efforts. so as angry and hurt and betrayed as sam is feeling towards dean, there is a part of him reaching out to his brother. during the last scene, after sam made that comment about being brothers, i looked at his eyes. he look as though he had more to say, that he wanted to say, but there was a sadness in them, a pained expression and he just couldn’t say it. but what i did notice was how fast he went to the impala. he didn’t hesitate. he didn’t even look back at the car he came in. he went right where he wanted to be. where he needed to be. so as much as it pained him to feel and say those things to dean, and you can tell by his whole demeanor and expression that sam was upset, his love for his brother trumped that pain. sam could’ve just as easily got back in that dodge, but he didn’t. he chose dean, yet again, as he always does. sure dean has to earn back sam’s trust. but that’s a given. they have a lot to deal with that they couldn’t deal with at the moment. dean knows it, which is why he was so accepting of sam’s anger and mistrust. like i said, dean’s felt the same way once upon a time, so now he’s walking in his brother’s shoes, as sam is walking in dean’s. it’s painful to watch, but i always find it a good thing when they experience similar circumstances, because it brings an eventual understanding and it brings them closer. because they learn from it. they grow from it. they become closer and stronger because of it. that will happen, once sam gets to feel his feels. he needs to do that. he needs to dish out the punishment to dean just as much as dean needs that punishment. because if sam did nothing, felt nothing, just swept it under the rug and let it go, it would do more damage to both of them. sam would just build on that pain yet again, and dean would just build on that guilt even more. reaping the punishment will make dean feel better in the end. just like sam felt better when he went into the pit. that he’d been punished and he didn’t hold onto that guilt.
sam’s pain and betrayal will dissipate. they will come together. i have no doubt of that. in the meantime though, ea. brother should be able to feel what they’re feeling and deal with it. it’s the only way to truly heal and grow.
jmo of course.
i think i’m in agreement aqualillies and it was hard to watch, but it was also a necessary step in repairing the damage, and like it or not, even though it wasn’t intentional or out of hate, but of love, dean screwed up and he screwed up big. we all said it. we all knew this was coming and now that it has, i find it odd that so many are shocked at sam for feeling the way he does and is acting accordingly.
i hate to say it but there is a double standard with alot of the fandom when it comes to sam and dean. it’s always been and there’s nothing that can be done about that. 🙁 i’ve posted once before that whatever happens to one brother, eventually happens to the other. njspn said it in another post, that it’s so the other brother can walk a mile in the other’s proverbial shoe. this is not the first instance where the writers have done this, but alas, so often i’ve read posts when, even though they have both done the same thing, it’s usually sam that ends up with the brunt of the fandom’s disappointment and anger. i always find that unfair, but it is what it is, which is why i guess some of us out there defend sam and try to point out his pov.
i’d like to point out something i’ve noticed throughout this episode regarding sam. throughout the eppy, dean was the one who tried to get sam to leave and sam was the one who stayed despite dean’s efforts. so as angry and hurt and betrayed as sam is feeling towards dean, there is a part of him reaching out to his brother. during the last scene, after sam made that comment about being brothers, i looked at his eyes. he look as though he had more to say, that he wanted to say, but there was a sadness in them, a pained expression and he just couldn’t say it. but what i did notice was how fast he went to the impala. he didn’t hesitate. he didn’t even look back at the car he came in. he went right where he wanted to be. where he needed to be. so as much as it pained him to feel and say those things to dean, and you can tell by his whole demeanor and expression that sam was upset, his love for his brother trumped that pain. sam could’ve just as easily got back in that dodge, but he didn’t. he chose dean, yet again, as he always does. sure dean has to earn back sam’s trust. but that’s a given. they have a lot to deal with that they couldn’t deal with at the moment. dean knows it, which is why he was so accepting of sam’s anger and mistrust. like i said, dean’s felt the same way once upon a time, so now he’s walking in his brother’s shoes, as sam is walking in dean’s. it’s painful to watch, but i always find it a good thing when they experience similar circumstances, because it brings an eventual understanding and it brings them closer. because they learn from it. they grow from it. they become closer and stronger because of it. that will happen, once sam gets to feel his feels. he needs to do that. he needs to dish out the punishment to dean just as much as dean needs that punishment. because if sam did nothing, felt nothing, just swept it under the rug and let it go, it would do more damage to both of them. sam would just build on that pain yet again, and dean would just build on that guilt even more. reaping the punishment will make dean feel better in the end. just like sam felt better when he went into the pit. that he’d been punished and he didn’t hold onto that guilt.
sam’s pain and betrayal will dissipate. they will come together. i have no doubt of that. in the meantime though, ea. brother should be able to feel what they’re feeling and deal with it. it’s the only way to truly heal and grow.
jmo of course.
I liked the episode enough, and to me, again, the dialogue between the brothers was realistic in that it’s how the majority of brothers communicate – i.e. without saying anything at all, without completing sentences, and ESPECIALLY without saying “sappy” stuff like “I’m sorry”. So I get that. I still prefer the boys to get along, but hey, I’m hoping the payoff this time around will be worth it.
On a totally different note, I liked what appeared to be a shout-out to Eve Gordon (the stepmom)’s acting history when the reverend said: “The powers that be brought this beautiful compassionate woman into my life”…. “The Powers That Be” being a sitcom that Eve Gordon was a series regular on back in the 1990’s! 😀
I liked the episode enough, and to me, again, the dialogue between the brothers was realistic in that it’s how the majority of brothers communicate – i.e. without saying anything at all, without completing sentences, and ESPECIALLY without saying “sappy” stuff like “I’m sorry”. So I get that. I still prefer the boys to get along, but hey, I’m hoping the payoff this time around will be worth it.
On a totally different note, I liked what appeared to be a shout-out to Eve Gordon (the stepmom)’s acting history when the reverend said: “The powers that be brought this beautiful compassionate woman into my life”…. “The Powers That Be” being a sitcom that Eve Gordon was a series regular on back in the 1990’s! 😀
I’m not at all upset that Sam is mad at Dean and I was glad Dean, at the beginning, tried to not have them work the case together. That seemed right for both brothers. What confused both my husband and me was how the dialogue went down at the end. I don’t think Dean got out of the car to ask Sam to work together again but to get clarification about what Sam meant on the bridge when he said, “But don’t think that’s the problem, cause it’s not.” That’s the question I would have liked to had an answer to. Sam saying they don’t think alike is a given and we’re not brothers was childish, hurtful and not productive in my opinion. Then the conversation ends with Sam giving Dean an ultimatum and getting in the car without Dean even saying okay or I get it. It’s always struck me as odd that Sam has so much empathy for everyone but Dean. It felt like Sam sucked the life out of Dean at the end and as much as I used to love the brothers together, I wished they had stayed apart for a little longer.
Adam Glass missed the boat on this one IMO. All Sam needed to say was, “Dean, you need to stop making decisions for me that aren’t yours to make and respect me enough to let me make my own decisions or things are always going to go sideways for us and you’re going to lose me anyway by holding on too tightly to me and doing crazy and over the top crap.
I haven’t re watched the episode but that is just my initial reaction. I don’t mean this to be negative but I am frustrated by the cryptic writing of Sam’s POV. Dean can’t “get it” if Sam can’t “say it clearly.” And round and round we go.
I’m not at all upset that Sam is mad at Dean and I was glad Dean, at the beginning, tried to not have them work the case together. That seemed right for both brothers. What confused both my husband and me was how the dialogue went down at the end. I don’t think Dean got out of the car to ask Sam to work together again but to get clarification about what Sam meant on the bridge when he said, “But don’t think that’s the problem, cause it’s not.” That’s the question I would have liked to had an answer to. Sam saying they don’t think alike is a given and we’re not brothers was childish, hurtful and not productive in my opinion. Then the conversation ends with Sam giving Dean an ultimatum and getting in the car without Dean even saying okay or I get it. It’s always struck me as odd that Sam has so much empathy for everyone but Dean. It felt like Sam sucked the life out of Dean at the end and as much as I used to love the brothers together, I wished they had stayed apart for a little longer.
Adam Glass missed the boat on this one IMO. All Sam needed to say was, “Dean, you need to stop making decisions for me that aren’t yours to make and respect me enough to let me make my own decisions or things are always going to go sideways for us and you’re going to lose me anyway by holding on too tightly to me and doing crazy and over the top crap.
I haven’t re watched the episode but that is just my initial reaction. I don’t mean this to be negative but I am frustrated by the cryptic writing of Sam’s POV. Dean can’t “get it” if Sam can’t “say it clearly.” And round and round we go.
It seemed to me the episode was on the vaguely corny side with the turn on the werewolf story. Once I accepted that I rather enjoyed it. However the depth of the emotion between Sam and Dean was jarring in the midst of the corny. As for Sam’s reaction to the mark of Cain…well, oddly that was more than likely a realistic moment in life, it takes us time to process, but in a one hour drama it definitely seemed lacking. I almost laughed out loud, which would not have been the intention of the moment. So with that and the corny and the emotion, I was all over the place. However, the last scene was good and realistic to the boys and the drama. And a good talk. A good new beginning. And I read it like Bamboo24’s boyfriend — it will take time for Sam to understand and trust as a brother. On the other hand I also think unconsciously he is wanting just to be with Dean and be as brothers, he is angry and wants to work that through with Dean. Good for him…and along the way maybe Dean will be able to articulate what family means, what Sam means to him, beyond co-dependency. There is so much of the parent in Dean that needs to be worked out, as their story continues, and as they both age. And as they become brothers on an equal basis. Oh and as a final thought…I did enjoy Garth’s presence. He is a sweet character.
It seemed to me the episode was on the vaguely corny side with the turn on the werewolf story. Once I accepted that I rather enjoyed it. However the depth of the emotion between Sam and Dean was jarring in the midst of the corny. As for Sam’s reaction to the mark of Cain…well, oddly that was more than likely a realistic moment in life, it takes us time to process, but in a one hour drama it definitely seemed lacking. I almost laughed out loud, which would not have been the intention of the moment. So with that and the corny and the emotion, I was all over the place. However, the last scene was good and realistic to the boys and the drama. And a good talk. A good new beginning. And I read it like Bamboo24’s boyfriend — it will take time for Sam to understand and trust as a brother. On the other hand I also think unconsciously he is wanting just to be with Dean and be as brothers, he is angry and wants to work that through with Dean. Good for him…and along the way maybe Dean will be able to articulate what family means, what Sam means to him, beyond co-dependency. There is so much of the parent in Dean that needs to be worked out, as their story continues, and as they both age. And as they become brothers on an equal basis. Oh and as a final thought…I did enjoy Garth’s presence. He is a sweet character.
[quote]actually I agree with Nickmaniac .. and I think we can say that.? The entire time I read it all I could think was man, she really hated this episode. Sounds like she’s really fed up with the show, why does she still watch it? I skipped through most of it because it was really negative. I don’t read Nate’s posts for the same reason. I usually enjoy Alice’s posts, maybe she was just off tonight, or really, really disappointed. I think she added that warning about the snark because after reread it, even she thought it was a bit much. lol.[/quote]
Just a note. The byline indicates that Bookdal wrote this, not Alice. Alice simply noted that it was intended as snark, not hatred. Since the decision was made that we wanted this to be a more positive board, I think any reviewer who uses snark when the don’t like an episode, instead of going on and on in an angry way is appropriate.
[quote]actually I agree with Nickmaniac .. and I think we can say that.? The entire time I read it all I could think was man, she really hated this episode. Sounds like she’s really fed up with the show, why does she still watch it? I skipped through most of it because it was really negative. I don’t read Nate’s posts for the same reason. I usually enjoy Alice’s posts, maybe she was just off tonight, or really, really disappointed. I think she added that warning about the snark because after reread it, even she thought it was a bit much. lol.[/quote]
Just a note. The byline indicates that Bookdal wrote this, not Alice. Alice simply noted that it was intended as snark, not hatred. Since the decision was made that we wanted this to be a more positive board, I think any reviewer who uses snark when the don’t like an episode, instead of going on and on in an angry way is appropriate.
First and foremost let me say thank you Bookdal. Very amusing review. I didn’t get the impression that you hated the show but that you have a sense of humor. And after that episode I needed a good laugh.
About the show …. Aqualilies comment made me think that Sam having too much faith in Dean and Dean feeling too responsible for Sam as a viscous cycle, not just the fault of one brother. [b]Let me state emphatically that I don’t think it’s Sam’s fault that Dean did what he did. [/b] I’m talking about the overall nature of their relationship. If only one brother changes then nothing changes long term. Both brothers need to acknowledge the cycle and change for them to move past it. Sam doesn’t have blind faith in Dean. He often keeps Dean in check. And Dean doesn’t keep Sam in bubble wrap so it’s not impossible for them to find a better balance.
Even though my heart sank at even the slightest implication that they aren’t brothers, I think we are being set up for a huge pay off like in Sacrifice.
First and foremost let me say thank you Bookdal. Very amusing review. I didn’t get the impression that you hated the show but that you have a sense of humor. And after that episode I needed a good laugh.
About the show …. Aqualilies comment made me think that Sam having too much faith in Dean and Dean feeling too responsible for Sam as a viscous cycle, not just the fault of one brother. [b]Let me state emphatically that I don’t think it’s Sam’s fault that Dean did what he did. [/b] I’m talking about the overall nature of their relationship. If only one brother changes then nothing changes long term. Both brothers need to acknowledge the cycle and change for them to move past it. Sam doesn’t have blind faith in Dean. He often keeps Dean in check. And Dean doesn’t keep Sam in bubble wrap so it’s not impossible for them to find a better balance.
Even though my heart sank at even the slightest implication that they aren’t brothers, I think we are being set up for a huge pay off like in Sacrifice.
As far as the episode goes, it was okay; nice to see Garth again; he has kind of grown on me. I did like the adding on to the werewolf lore.
Well, I guess we knew that scene would cause strong reactions on all sides. Could not disagree more with your assessment that Sam disavowed Dean, or no longer considers him his brother. I did think the scene could have been written better but… Sam’s angry, he has every right to be, the relationship is badly damaged, and the we’re family card ain’t gonna cut it this time. As nappi815 said, Dean kept trying to get Sam to leave throughout the episode and Sam was having none of that. And, in the end, Sam got in the car with Dean; while it was just to work together for now, if Sam didn’t want to fix things, he would have just left. And, on a happier note, I would like to compliment Sam on his taste in stolen cars; this is a vast improvement from earlier seasons 😀
As far as the episode goes, it was okay; nice to see Garth again; he has kind of grown on me. I did like the adding on to the werewolf lore.
Well, I guess we knew that scene would cause strong reactions on all sides. Could not disagree more with your assessment that Sam disavowed Dean, or no longer considers him his brother. I did think the scene could have been written better but… Sam’s angry, he has every right to be, the relationship is badly damaged, and the we’re family card ain’t gonna cut it this time. As nappi815 said, Dean kept trying to get Sam to leave throughout the episode and Sam was having none of that. And, in the end, Sam got in the car with Dean; while it was just to work together for now, if Sam didn’t want to fix things, he would have just left. And, on a happier note, I would like to compliment Sam on his taste in stolen cars; this is a vast improvement from earlier seasons 😀
[quote name=”Bamboo24″]When I watched the episode I was ranting and raving after Sam’s speech. “What kind of ultimatum is that?! Sam’s saying either they can work OR be brothers??!”
BUT my boyfriend who sat next to me insisted that was not what Sam said. His interpretation of what Sam said was, “you want to be work partners that’s fine – we work good together; but if you want to be brothers, that’s going to take more than just getting back into the routine of the job – you have to change.”
It makes sense to me. Dean just wanted to hop in the car and get back to business as usual, with the typical “we’re family” excuse as a cover-all. Sam’s saying “no, not this time – this time we actually have to work through this.” Maybe Sam will take Dean to the light at the end of the tunnel, after all. I just want the healing to start sooner rather than later.[/quote]
Bamboo24 – I agree with your boyfriend – that’s exactly how I viewed that scene. Ultimately, if Sam didn’t want to fix things, he would have just left.
[quote]When I watched the episode I was ranting and raving after Sam’s speech. “What kind of ultimatum is that?! Sam’s saying either they can work OR be brothers??!”
BUT my boyfriend who sat next to me insisted that was not what Sam said. His interpretation of what Sam said was, “you want to be work partners that’s fine – we work good together; but if you want to be brothers, that’s going to take more than just getting back into the routine of the job – you have to change.”
It makes sense to me. Dean just wanted to hop in the car and get back to business as usual, with the typical “we’re family” excuse as a cover-all. Sam’s saying “no, not this time – this time we actually have to work through this.” Maybe Sam will take Dean to the light at the end of the tunnel, after all. I just want the healing to start sooner rather than later.[/quote]
Bamboo24 – I agree with your boyfriend – that’s exactly how I viewed that scene. Ultimately, if Sam didn’t want to fix things, he would have just left.
The werewolf story was just to distract us from the family theme with action story. Yes, there had to be an explanation about what happened to Garth and for Garth to help share Dean’s guilt about Kevin. So is that it for Garth? Are we really turning a page by axing all of the prior players? For long time fans, it was a jolt to hear about family life for werewolves considering the deep(and lustful) emotions Sam and Madison shared a long time ago. And there was no option for him. How must he feel? Nothing?
Dean still attempting to protect Sam with lies and then his attempts at showing emotion and honesty. He”never gives up” on family. The major change is Sam. Once before when they split up and Sam came back, Sam set the rules to be treated as an equal. Now Sam wants the work relationship b/c the brother relationship is so fractured and he does not trust Dean, Prior years, Dean could not trust Sam, but he seems unconcerned by Dean’s new mark on his arm- it echoed souless Sam. Did Cas take anything else out of Sam when he took the grace? Not sure this Sam is going to be as likeable. So while it did not have the feels we might have wanted, it was more real in that this time the solution is not so quick.The feels were there from Dean/Garth but reception bad with Sam. It was an episode that left me sad, frustrated and moved emotionally. Fiction writing that can do that is good writing. Not perfect but good. And it made be laugh sometimes. the fridge scene is something only SPN fans would appreciate.Crowley is searching the oceans so he would not be in this episode nor are wwolves his focus. So writers showed Sam and Dean as individuals. Sam is less co-dependent. Hair and jaw lines got me thru the rough spots in the script.
The werewolf story was just to distract us from the family theme with action story. Yes, there had to be an explanation about what happened to Garth and for Garth to help share Dean’s guilt about Kevin. So is that it for Garth? Are we really turning a page by axing all of the prior players? For long time fans, it was a jolt to hear about family life for werewolves considering the deep(and lustful) emotions Sam and Madison shared a long time ago. And there was no option for him. How must he feel? Nothing?
Dean still attempting to protect Sam with lies and then his attempts at showing emotion and honesty. He”never gives up” on family. The major change is Sam. Once before when they split up and Sam came back, Sam set the rules to be treated as an equal. Now Sam wants the work relationship b/c the brother relationship is so fractured and he does not trust Dean, Prior years, Dean could not trust Sam, but he seems unconcerned by Dean’s new mark on his arm- it echoed souless Sam. Did Cas take anything else out of Sam when he took the grace? Not sure this Sam is going to be as likeable. So while it did not have the feels we might have wanted, it was more real in that this time the solution is not so quick.The feels were there from Dean/Garth but reception bad with Sam. It was an episode that left me sad, frustrated and moved emotionally. Fiction writing that can do that is good writing. Not perfect but good. And it made be laugh sometimes. the fridge scene is something only SPN fans would appreciate.Crowley is searching the oceans so he would not be in this episode nor are wwolves his focus. So writers showed Sam and Dean as individuals. Sam is less co-dependent. Hair and jaw lines got me thru the rough spots in the script.
Sorry for the confusion by my editor’s notes. I didn’t write this article. Bookdal did. She didn’t like the episode and decided to go with a snark angle. I approved it, but I wanted to warn ahead of time too.
This episode is providing the perfect challenge for us as we move forward with our positive tone. What happens when a middling or just plain bad episode airs? I don’t want to censor honest opinions but at the same time I’ve got to avoid scathing rants. Snark is a great mechanism for that. It is an acquired taste though, so I respect those that don’t appreciate the snarky attitude.
In my honest opinion, this was a poorly written episode. It wasn’t a total waste and I think the last scene was well done, but overall it was a bit of a mess. I could give my reasons as to why but I’ll save that for a balanced review (if I have time to write one) or I’ll save it for the TV Fanatic roundtable. Instead of ranting, I’m taking time to tactfully come up with reasons why this episode fell short. In the meantime, if you see a couple of snarky comments from me here or on Twitter, it’s all part of my reconciliation process! I mean no harm. It’s still all good.
So, thanks everyone as we deal with these challenges as they come! If you didn’t like it, please say so! Ditto if you did. I only ask to watch the tone. No scathing rants here, but I’ll start a separate rant thread for those that need to get it out.
Sorry for the confusion by my editor’s notes. I didn’t write this article. Bookdal did. She didn’t like the episode and decided to go with a snark angle. I approved it, but I wanted to warn ahead of time too.
This episode is providing the perfect challenge for us as we move forward with our positive tone. What happens when a middling or just plain bad episode airs? I don’t want to censor honest opinions but at the same time I’ve got to avoid scathing rants. Snark is a great mechanism for that. It is an acquired taste though, so I respect those that don’t appreciate the snarky attitude.
In my honest opinion, this was a poorly written episode. It wasn’t a total waste and I think the last scene was well done, but overall it was a bit of a mess. I could give my reasons as to why but I’ll save that for a balanced review (if I have time to write one) or I’ll save it for the TV Fanatic roundtable. Instead of ranting, I’m taking time to tactfully come up with reasons why this episode fell short. In the meantime, if you see a couple of snarky comments from me here or on Twitter, it’s all part of my reconciliation process! I mean no harm. It’s still all good.
So, thanks everyone as we deal with these challenges as they come! If you didn’t like it, please say so! Ditto if you did. I only ask to watch the tone. No scathing rants here, but I’ll start a separate rant thread for those that need to get it out.
My basic reaction was it was written by Adam Glass who wrote one of my all time least liked episodes (ADGTH) and the only episode I never watched (the return of Krissy)
On the positive side, he didn’t bring back either Krissy or Lucky the shapeshifter, so that’s a plus.
My basic reaction was it was written by Adam Glass who wrote one of my all time least liked episodes (ADGTH) and the only episode I never watched (the return of Krissy)
On the positive side, he didn’t bring back either Krissy or Lucky the shapeshifter, so that’s a plus.
[quote name=”percysowner”]My basic reaction was it was written by Adam Glass who wrote one of my all time least liked episodes (ADGTH) and the only episode I never watched (the return of Krissy)
On the positive side, he didn’t bring back either Krissy or Lucky the shapeshifter, so that’s a plus.[/quote]
you never watched ADGTH? You’re right, not a good episode but Soulless Sam was kinda funny, in a dickish sort of way, in that one.
[quote]My basic reaction was it was written by Adam Glass who wrote one of my all time least liked episodes (ADGTH) and the only episode I never watched (the return of Krissy)
On the positive side, he didn’t bring back either Krissy or Lucky the shapeshifter, so that’s a plus.[/quote]
you never watched ADGTH? You’re right, not a good episode but Soulless Sam was kinda funny, in a dickish sort of way, in that one.
[quote name=”kaj”][quote name=”alice”]I really don’t blame Sam. He had such blind faith in his brother and the way he sees it, because he listened to Dean he blew the chance to close the gates of Hell and got possessed by an angel which got Kevin killed. I don’t see how he can ever trust.[/quote]
This is exactly what the Dean’s fans said at the beginning of season 5 when Dean let Sam go by saying that he couldn’t trust Sam anymore (the scene at the hospital parking lot).
It also correlates with the scene from 9.02 when Sam contemplated what he did during season 4, releasing Lucifer and all that resulting in the death of many people.
It’s probably just my interpretation but I tend to try to see behind the lines of what the show as a whole trying to convey this season. It’s like the show is trying to say this :
“You remember season 4 Sam? Have you ever wonder why Dean was so bitter to you during season 8 when you didn’t look for him? Why did he hit you by piling up your sin over and over again? You probably cannot understand how Dean felt at the time because you don’t experience what Dean experienced. You don’t feel what Dean felt.
Now you know how Dean feels 4 season’s ago, right? You wonder why Dean cannot trust you again no matter how many times you apologize or how many times you repent. Remember your speech at the end of season 8 “Who will you trust if you can’t trust me, Dean? Another angel, another vampire?” You implore Dean, Why, why, why can’t you trust me Dean? Have I repent enough?”
Now that Dean do the same thing and you feel betrayed, can you recall those feeling of familial rejection and detachment that you felt during season 5? THAT’S exactly what Dean feels right now. It hurts, right Sam, being betrayed by your most trusted person. It hurts, right Sam? No one can fault you of your reaction of disowning Dean because Dean did the same thing at season 5. Why shouldn’t you?”
Now this is also a calling to all fans who were very vocal on their reactions in defending Dean during season 5. Now that Dean did the same thing what do they feel. Also for Sam’s girls who were rallying and protecting Sam, saying Sam had felt sorry enough and Dean was cruel for not forgiving Sam. Now, will they say that Sam is being too cruel for disowning Dean? Because after all what Den did is just trying to save Sam in anyway he knew how.
Or do we have double standard for our fav character?
I know you can’t blame Sam this time, Alice. I can’t remember what your reaction during season 5 but I do hope that you too were not blaming Dean for not forgiving Sam during season 5.
For Sam’s fans out there, remember Dean did the same thing to Sam during season 5, what did your reaction at the time?
For Dean’s fans out there, Well, this man had it coming. Perhaps now that he knows what Sam feels, he will stop accusing Sam of his past mistakes and learn to really let go.
I think the show did a great job at trying to make the boys understand each other without using so many words. Notice the word TRYING here. These are guys, they don’t do chick flick moments, they don’t talk their problems during a sleepover while braiding Sam’s hair. No, they speak with their action. Afterall action speaks louder, if only we know where to listen in.[/quote]
I get Sam fans want redemption for how Dean acted in S5 at the beginning. But the only thing Dean said yes things won’t be the same and that he won’t trust him. Sam made the choice to leave like Dean did; but Sam was the one who called to come back to join the team. Dean called him back after seeing that after 2014 him and Sam never talked again. And we are now headed down that path more then ever. Sorry I maybe a Dean fan but after Sam’s speech and altimatium of working conditions to me I wish Dean would have just left him there. I mean really you disown Dean yet you can work with him really how does that work? I won’t care about you we will work but nothing else. Do they stay in seperate hotel rooms?? I mean if this is Sam’s speech suppost to mirror Deans of Season 5 hate to say it but Team Dean here because its like again Sam calling shots like he did with its either Benny or me. I don’t think Sam has grown at all to me he is still a bigger bratty kid who now gets to crumble his working partners heart. I mean to me if you saw what Dean did with the knife and then shooting the people and fighting its like I would be more concerned about working with crowley and the mark but again that is how little sam thinks of Dean. Like I said if I were Dean after hearing what he had to say I would have gotten in car and drove away without his butt in my car. Sorry JMO
[quote][quote]I really don’t blame Sam. He had such blind faith in his brother and the way he sees it, because he listened to Dean he blew the chance to close the gates of Hell and got possessed by an angel which got Kevin killed. I don’t see how he can ever trust.[/quote]
This is exactly what the Dean’s fans said at the beginning of season 5 when Dean let Sam go by saying that he couldn’t trust Sam anymore (the scene at the hospital parking lot).
It also correlates with the scene from 9.02 when Sam contemplated what he did during season 4, releasing Lucifer and all that resulting in the death of many people.
It’s probably just my interpretation but I tend to try to see behind the lines of what the show as a whole trying to convey this season. It’s like the show is trying to say this :
“You remember season 4 Sam? Have you ever wonder why Dean was so bitter to you during season 8 when you didn’t look for him? Why did he hit you by piling up your sin over and over again? You probably cannot understand how Dean felt at the time because you don’t experience what Dean experienced. You don’t feel what Dean felt.
Now you know how Dean feels 4 season’s ago, right? You wonder why Dean cannot trust you again no matter how many times you apologize or how many times you repent. Remember your speech at the end of season 8 “Who will you trust if you can’t trust me, Dean? Another angel, another vampire?” You implore Dean, Why, why, why can’t you trust me Dean? Have I repent enough?”
Now that Dean do the same thing and you feel betrayed, can you recall those feeling of familial rejection and detachment that you felt during season 5? THAT’S exactly what Dean feels right now. It hurts, right Sam, being betrayed by your most trusted person. It hurts, right Sam? No one can fault you of your reaction of disowning Dean because Dean did the same thing at season 5. Why shouldn’t you?”
Now this is also a calling to all fans who were very vocal on their reactions in defending Dean during season 5. Now that Dean did the same thing what do they feel. Also for Sam’s girls who were rallying and protecting Sam, saying Sam had felt sorry enough and Dean was cruel for not forgiving Sam. Now, will they say that Sam is being too cruel for disowning Dean? Because after all what Den did is just trying to save Sam in anyway he knew how.
Or do we have double standard for our fav character?
I know you can’t blame Sam this time, Alice. I can’t remember what your reaction during season 5 but I do hope that you too were not blaming Dean for not forgiving Sam during season 5.
For Sam’s fans out there, remember Dean did the same thing to Sam during season 5, what did your reaction at the time?
For Dean’s fans out there, Well, this man had it coming. Perhaps now that he knows what Sam feels, he will stop accusing Sam of his past mistakes and learn to really let go.
I think the show did a great job at trying to make the boys understand each other without using so many words. Notice the word TRYING here. These are guys, they don’t do chick flick moments, they don’t talk their problems during a sleepover while braiding Sam’s hair. No, they speak with their action. Afterall action speaks louder, if only we know where to listen in.[/quote]
I get Sam fans want redemption for how Dean acted in S5 at the beginning. But the only thing Dean said yes things won’t be the same and that he won’t trust him. Sam made the choice to leave like Dean did; but Sam was the one who called to come back to join the team. Dean called him back after seeing that after 2014 him and Sam never talked again. And we are now headed down that path more then ever. Sorry I maybe a Dean fan but after Sam’s speech and altimatium of working conditions to me I wish Dean would have just left him there. I mean really you disown Dean yet you can work with him really how does that work? I won’t care about you we will work but nothing else. Do they stay in seperate hotel rooms?? I mean if this is Sam’s speech suppost to mirror Deans of Season 5 hate to say it but Team Dean here because its like again Sam calling shots like he did with its either Benny or me. I don’t think Sam has grown at all to me he is still a bigger bratty kid who now gets to crumble his working partners heart. I mean to me if you saw what Dean did with the knife and then shooting the people and fighting its like I would be more concerned about working with crowley and the mark but again that is how little sam thinks of Dean. Like I said if I were Dean after hearing what he had to say I would have gotten in car and drove away without his butt in my car. Sorry JMO
[quote]you never watched ADGTH? You’re right, not a good episode but Soulless Sam was kinda funny, in a dickish sort of way, in that one.[/quote]
No, I watched and hated ADGTH. I never watched Family Matters (?). I called it the return of Krissy because I’m not totally sure of the title. Sorry for the confusion.
[quote]you never watched ADGTH? You’re right, not a good episode but Soulless Sam was kinda funny, in a dickish sort of way, in that one.[/quote]
No, I watched and hated ADGTH. I never watched Family Matters (?). I called it the return of Krissy because I’m not totally sure of the title. Sorry for the confusion.
Didn’t realize Adam Glass wrote those other two episodes (wasn’t keeping track of who wrote what at the time) but it explains some things for me!
Didn’t realize Adam Glass wrote those other two episodes (wasn’t keeping track of who wrote what at the time) but it explains some things for me!
I agree with Alice this wasn’t a very well written episode but when Sam and Dean were on screen as usual the story moved. Unfortunately their scenes were few and far between. I also don’t think, at least for me, that the show is about blame. I know many fans keep a score sheet on who did what to who and how many times but for me I think the point is to root for these guys to prevail. Not just in their professional lives but in their relationship. The show has always been about the very screwed up lives of Sam and Dean. It’s complicated, messy and tragic. Sam did get in the car, nobody threw a hissy fit, I thought it was a best case scenario considering all that has happened.
I agree with Alice this wasn’t a very well written episode but when Sam and Dean were on screen as usual the story moved. Unfortunately their scenes were few and far between. I also don’t think, at least for me, that the show is about blame. I know many fans keep a score sheet on who did what to who and how many times but for me I think the point is to root for these guys to prevail. Not just in their professional lives but in their relationship. The show has always been about the very screwed up lives of Sam and Dean. It’s complicated, messy and tragic. Sam did get in the car, nobody threw a hissy fit, I thought it was a best case scenario considering all that has happened.
These comments have been interesting to read.
I’d like to say that thanks to Bamboo24’s for making sense of that last line. [quote name=”Bamboo24″]… my boyfriend who sat next to me insisted that was not what Sam said. His interpretation of what Sam said was, “you want to be work partners that’s fine – we work good together; but if you want to be brothers, that’s going to take more than just getting back into the routine of the job – you have to change.”
[/quote]
Thanks for that Bamboo.
This was a typical “guy” conversation and for that fact, I have to applaud. I love authenticity
These comments have been interesting to read.
I’d like to say that thanks to Bamboo24’s for making sense of that last line. [quote]… my boyfriend who sat next to me insisted that was not what Sam said. His interpretation of what Sam said was, “you want to be work partners that’s fine – we work good together; but if you want to be brothers, that’s going to take more than just getting back into the routine of the job – you have to change.”
[/quote]
Thanks for that Bamboo.
This was a typical “guy” conversation and for that fact, I have to applaud. I love authenticity
Sometimes they write exactly what I’ve been looking for. Sam needed to start seeing things differently, he trusts Dean the hunter, but it’s the brother that has consistently hurt him and recently betrayed his trust that he is having trouble with. Letting go of that absolute blind faith is required for him to continue. He can now work on understanding where Dean comes from and accepting him for who he is, something that Dean needs to do as well. They come from different places and see things differently, and they need to respect and acknowledge that each will do the best they can and deal with the results.
It was funny the screams coming from twitter last night “not brothers?” But that is not what he said. I enjoyed the Brother scenes. The wwolves story was ok, until I looked at it as another disfunctional family dynamic, especially to someone like Garth, who had been looking for that connection, then I enjoyed it more.
I am actually quite pleased that Sam didn’t just agree to forgive and forget, he shouldn’t, esp after Dean did the lying about the case and Sam was not fooled! Stop lying boys, you can keep your secrets, do your own thing, but just come out and say it “I don’t want to work with you, I want to do it alone or it’s none of your damn business.” Dean is so confused, I love it, so much potential for rediscovering what good men they actually are not in their brothers eyes but in their own. I still wanted to hear the words “I am sorry”.
For the down side, the monologue was too much from the monster POV and too little from Sam and Dean, it lacked some balance.
All in all this season is taking my breath away (I love pain) and I know they will come to an understanding eventually.
Sometimes they write exactly what I’ve been looking for. Sam needed to start seeing things differently, he trusts Dean the hunter, but it’s the brother that has consistently hurt him and recently betrayed his trust that he is having trouble with. Letting go of that absolute blind faith is required for him to continue. He can now work on understanding where Dean comes from and accepting him for who he is, something that Dean needs to do as well. They come from different places and see things differently, and they need to respect and acknowledge that each will do the best they can and deal with the results.
It was funny the screams coming from twitter last night “not brothers?” But that is not what he said. I enjoyed the Brother scenes. The wwolves story was ok, until I looked at it as another disfunctional family dynamic, especially to someone like Garth, who had been looking for that connection, then I enjoyed it more.
I am actually quite pleased that Sam didn’t just agree to forgive and forget, he shouldn’t, esp after Dean did the lying about the case and Sam was not fooled! Stop lying boys, you can keep your secrets, do your own thing, but just come out and say it “I don’t want to work with you, I want to do it alone or it’s none of your damn business.” Dean is so confused, I love it, so much potential for rediscovering what good men they actually are not in their brothers eyes but in their own. I still wanted to hear the words “I am sorry”.
For the down side, the monologue was too much from the monster POV and too little from Sam and Dean, it lacked some balance.
All in all this season is taking my breath away (I love pain) and I know they will come to an understanding eventually.
I really liked this one. The monster of the week wasn’t the best and there were clichés flying around the place but what it did to push forward the brothers story was huge and there were parallels to Sam and Dean running all through.
First of all, the story of the step-mother is Dean’s story. Her mentality, ‘revenge for my family’, is Dean’s mentality this season and last season; hunters for one and demons for the other. She was trying to ensure her ‘people’ survived by killing off those who target her family; that’s Dean all over.
Sam has the same mentality as Reverend Jim. He has accepted that you can’t be driven by revenge, that you have to let go in order to be able to live in peace and by doing that, also save your family and save lives. How many werewolves died in this episode because of the stepmothers (did she even have a name??) quest for revenge? And the thing is, I can’t remember if the stepmothers or her ‘followers’ actually killed anyone. I remember a couple of cattle and chickens dying, but I don’t recall any humans dying. Sure, the wicked stepmother was very wicked the way she planned to kill two werewolves and place it on a hunter whose job it was to kill ‘monsters’ like her, but isn’t this the same as what Sam and Dean do, try to kill off ‘monsters’ to make it safe for their people?
I’m applauding Sam’s speech at the end. I’m delighted he stood up for himself and that he has no hesitation in setting Dean straight in relation to the ‘going our separate ways’. It didn’t make him look like a child, or immature or callous; quite the opposite. This was maturity (which is never popular). Going with Dean and throwing his actions in his face every two minutes would not be maturity. Papering over what was done, expecting it to go away and hoping that it would not happen again would not be maturity. What Sam showed here was a desire to fix their relationship. Sam doesn’t see things the same as Dean, and he told him so, that’s maturity. Sam is not capitulating to the submissive object-role Dean has, unknownst to himself, assigned to him, not anymore and that’s also maturity.
Sam knows what the problem is; the lengths that they go to in order to protect each other and the cost to others of same. People die because of it; they’ve brought the world to the brink because of it. Dean might sacrifice the world for Sam again, but Sam won’t and he’ll do his best to not allow it happen. He knows that he is just one man, as is Dean; their lives should not be worth the lives of anyone else, and it’s not safe for Sam or Dean or anyone if they continue to hunt with that mentality. Sam didn’t throw himself into the Cage to save the world only to see it be destroyed by them again.
This is why what Sam said at the end worked for me. He didn’t try to placate Dean over it, that’s Castiels job, and Dean doesn’t need that from Sam. Sam was right to mention the trials. If Dean had been prepared to let Sam go, if Sam had been prepared to ‘let Dean down’ once more by not doing what he wanted here, then the gates of hell would be closed, and things would be exponentially different, and probably better for everyone now. Instead, because of their dependency or whatever on each other, Kevin is dead, as are two other vessels (who are never mentioned), Dean has the mark of Cain, they’re hunting with Crowley and they are, once again, back on that revenge fuelled road to destruction.
Sam can’t come out and just tell Dean what the problem is. That method never works. Kids don’t learn that way so we shouldn’t expect adults to learn that way. If Sam simply told Dean then he would just deny that he did it and justify his actions, as he started to do here before Sam cut him off. Dean needs to realise what he has done wrong, not be told it. That’s what the best teachers do; they ask open ended questions, they present hypotheticals and ask rhetorical questions, they leave sentences hanging etc. When the student reaches their own conclusion, when they come to the answer themselves as opposed to being told it, then the lesson will sink in. If a teacher just says ‘This is the answer’ then it will be quickly forgotten. Dean needs to realise what he did, examine why he did it and decide if it was worth it because that’s the only way they can get past it. Again, I hate to say it, but this is maturity. Dean spent last season telling Sam what he did wrong, so while Sam knows it’s wrong (because someone else told him), he probably doesn’t believe that what he did was wrong. Add to that, Sam knows how that feels so he’s not going to do the same to Dean.
I really liked this one. The monster of the week wasn’t the best and there were clichés flying around the place but what it did to push forward the brothers story was huge and there were parallels to Sam and Dean running all through.
First of all, the story of the step-mother is Dean’s story. Her mentality, ‘revenge for my family’, is Dean’s mentality this season and last season; hunters for one and demons for the other. She was trying to ensure her ‘people’ survived by killing off those who target her family; that’s Dean all over.
Sam has the same mentality as Reverend Jim. He has accepted that you can’t be driven by revenge, that you have to let go in order to be able to live in peace and by doing that, also save your family and save lives. How many werewolves died in this episode because of the stepmothers (did she even have a name??) quest for revenge? And the thing is, I can’t remember if the stepmothers or her ‘followers’ actually killed anyone. I remember a couple of cattle and chickens dying, but I don’t recall any humans dying. Sure, the wicked stepmother was very wicked the way she planned to kill two werewolves and place it on a hunter whose job it was to kill ‘monsters’ like her, but isn’t this the same as what Sam and Dean do, try to kill off ‘monsters’ to make it safe for their people?
I’m applauding Sam’s speech at the end. I’m delighted he stood up for himself and that he has no hesitation in setting Dean straight in relation to the ‘going our separate ways’. It didn’t make him look like a child, or immature or callous; quite the opposite. This was maturity (which is never popular). Going with Dean and throwing his actions in his face every two minutes would not be maturity. Papering over what was done, expecting it to go away and hoping that it would not happen again would not be maturity. What Sam showed here was a desire to fix their relationship. Sam doesn’t see things the same as Dean, and he told him so, that’s maturity. Sam is not capitulating to the submissive object-role Dean has, unknownst to himself, assigned to him, not anymore and that’s also maturity.
Sam knows what the problem is; the lengths that they go to in order to protect each other and the cost to others of same. People die because of it; they’ve brought the world to the brink because of it. Dean might sacrifice the world for Sam again, but Sam won’t and he’ll do his best to not allow it happen. He knows that he is just one man, as is Dean; their lives should not be worth the lives of anyone else, and it’s not safe for Sam or Dean or anyone if they continue to hunt with that mentality. Sam didn’t throw himself into the Cage to save the world only to see it be destroyed by them again.
This is why what Sam said at the end worked for me. He didn’t try to placate Dean over it, that’s Castiels job, and Dean doesn’t need that from Sam. Sam was right to mention the trials. If Dean had been prepared to let Sam go, if Sam had been prepared to ‘let Dean down’ once more by not doing what he wanted here, then the gates of hell would be closed, and things would be exponentially different, and probably better for everyone now. Instead, because of their dependency or whatever on each other, Kevin is dead, as are two other vessels (who are never mentioned), Dean has the mark of Cain, they’re hunting with Crowley and they are, once again, back on that revenge fuelled road to destruction.
Sam can’t come out and just tell Dean what the problem is. That method never works. Kids don’t learn that way so we shouldn’t expect adults to learn that way. If Sam simply told Dean then he would just deny that he did it and justify his actions, as he started to do here before Sam cut him off. Dean needs to realise what he has done wrong, not be told it. That’s what the best teachers do; they ask open ended questions, they present hypotheticals and ask rhetorical questions, they leave sentences hanging etc. When the student reaches their own conclusion, when they come to the answer themselves as opposed to being told it, then the lesson will sink in. If a teacher just says ‘This is the answer’ then it will be quickly forgotten. Dean needs to realise what he did, examine why he did it and decide if it was worth it because that’s the only way they can get past it. Again, I hate to say it, but this is maturity. Dean spent last season telling Sam what he did wrong, so while Sam knows it’s wrong (because someone else told him), he probably doesn’t believe that what he did was wrong. Add to that, Sam knows how that feels so he’s not going to do the same to Dean.
Bookdal, I know how fed up you are with some aspects of this show and as someone who is basically happy with it all despite the occasional moments when it makes me go “hmmmm,” what I like is to have a balanced view of this show. I like hearing from the folk who have been avid watchers for years longer than I have. I like to learn about the inconsistencies because I just don’t think that way and it’s interesting, so thanks for this snarky review because frankly, I didn’t expect you to hold back as much as you did. 🙂
I was hurt when Dean told Sam years back that he didn’t trust him, that he didn’t think he could pull things off. I was hurt by Sam pleading so often for Dean to trust him and to this I am thinking Sam continues to feel Dean picks others over him. Now I am as devastated – maybe more since I am a professed Dean girl – that Sam has pretty much disowned Dean. I couldn’t even look at the first time. It was too painful to hear and how Dean didn’t break down at that, I’m not sure, but then again he hates himself and I can imagine he thinks he deserves this. After all Dean KNEW Same would be mad. We all knew it. When he took a second to think about then-Zeke’s deal and we saw him mentally tell himself this is a bad thing to do. He knew it, we knew it, so this was coming. It has to happen. I hate it, but it has to. What I keep yelling at Sam is Dean has severe abandonment issues. Again, he knows it, we know it, so maybe deal with THAT to get him to stop making these choices for Sam? It’s legit that Dean would be this way SINCE CHILDHOOD after that first unintentional departure by his mom. What I want though is for Sam to be the one to start repairing this – when he is ready. He’s mature enough to know Dean most likely won’t do this any other way, but he’ll do it for Sam. Garth is pretty insightful. Make him a makeshift therapist if ya gotta. But I think if no one ever calls Dean on this thing he has about losing Sam, things won’t change. Hopefully, since they’ve done a few more mature moves so far, they are on the road to real change.
Bookdal, I know how fed up you are with some aspects of this show and as someone who is basically happy with it all despite the occasional moments when it makes me go “hmmmm,” what I like is to have a balanced view of this show. I like hearing from the folk who have been avid watchers for years longer than I have. I like to learn about the inconsistencies because I just don’t think that way and it’s interesting, so thanks for this snarky review because frankly, I didn’t expect you to hold back as much as you did. 🙂
I was hurt when Dean told Sam years back that he didn’t trust him, that he didn’t think he could pull things off. I was hurt by Sam pleading so often for Dean to trust him and to this I am thinking Sam continues to feel Dean picks others over him. Now I am as devastated – maybe more since I am a professed Dean girl – that Sam has pretty much disowned Dean. I couldn’t even look at the first time. It was too painful to hear and how Dean didn’t break down at that, I’m not sure, but then again he hates himself and I can imagine he thinks he deserves this. After all Dean KNEW Same would be mad. We all knew it. When he took a second to think about then-Zeke’s deal and we saw him mentally tell himself this is a bad thing to do. He knew it, we knew it, so this was coming. It has to happen. I hate it, but it has to. What I keep yelling at Sam is Dean has severe abandonment issues. Again, he knows it, we know it, so maybe deal with THAT to get him to stop making these choices for Sam? It’s legit that Dean would be this way SINCE CHILDHOOD after that first unintentional departure by his mom. What I want though is for Sam to be the one to start repairing this – when he is ready. He’s mature enough to know Dean most likely won’t do this any other way, but he’ll do it for Sam. Garth is pretty insightful. Make him a makeshift therapist if ya gotta. But I think if no one ever calls Dean on this thing he has about losing Sam, things won’t change. Hopefully, since they’ve done a few more mature moves so far, they are on the road to real change.
It’s also good that Sam didn’t give the forgiven and forgotten spiel because that will just lead Dean to believe that there are no real consequences to what he did, things will go back to the same old, same old and the next time Sam dies, (and Sam will die again), Dean will feel he is justified to take whatever steps he deems necessary to bring Sam back, regardless of Sam’s desires and the consequences. Sam and Deans issues have been wallpapered over for years, the approach they took in the past is no long feasible.
The line at the end also worked. As things stand at the moment, they can be partners or they can be brothers, but they can’t be both; certainly not ‘brother’s’ in the trust sense of the word. ‘Brothers’ to Sam mean a different thing to ‘brothers’ to Dean. Dean equates brother with protection, Sam equates brother with trust. I’m sure Sam would have no problem playing the baby brother role, but not when there are lives at stake. The question is will Dean give up hunting for Sam in order for Sam to assume the baby brother role or does he want to consider Sam an equal partner, a true brother.
I get that Sam’s words might have sounded harsh to some. These are the types of words that are more often spoken by Dean or Bobby. However, the words are necessary, they were valid and Dean needed to hear them. With Bobby gone it falls to Sam. He knows that Dean’s intentions were good, but he knows that intentions mean nothing when peoples lives are lost; another harsh lesson he has learned.
I get that some might dislike Sam because of it or worry about their relationship because of it but I’m the opposite. Forgive and forget (as forgive and forget the way this show does it) would have been detrimental to their relationship, not this. Sam’s attitude here is what will save their relationship, not doom it.
It also makes Dean’s mentality much clearer. He has an expectation that what he did should be forgiven and forgotten because he’s ‘family’, as he believes that he has always done. It’s like being a priest, they forgive because it’s their job to forgive, not necessarily because they believe the person in the confessional has earned forgiveness. It’s as if it’s something that Dean believes he should do, forgive/excuse family and go on as before. Sam is different. When Sam forgives he forgives because he understands the person, not because of the role that they play (father, big brother etc). It might take longer to get there, and it might be painful to get there but it’ll be solid.
So this episode, for me, works, which in good in a season where so few of them have. Now I’m hoping it’s going to continue and not just be a fluke.
It’s also good that Sam didn’t give the forgiven and forgotten spiel because that will just lead Dean to believe that there are no real consequences to what he did, things will go back to the same old, same old and the next time Sam dies, (and Sam will die again), Dean will feel he is justified to take whatever steps he deems necessary to bring Sam back, regardless of Sam’s desires and the consequences. Sam and Deans issues have been wallpapered over for years, the approach they took in the past is no long feasible.
The line at the end also worked. As things stand at the moment, they can be partners or they can be brothers, but they can’t be both; certainly not ‘brother’s’ in the trust sense of the word. ‘Brothers’ to Sam mean a different thing to ‘brothers’ to Dean. Dean equates brother with protection, Sam equates brother with trust. I’m sure Sam would have no problem playing the baby brother role, but not when there are lives at stake. The question is will Dean give up hunting for Sam in order for Sam to assume the baby brother role or does he want to consider Sam an equal partner, a true brother.
I get that Sam’s words might have sounded harsh to some. These are the types of words that are more often spoken by Dean or Bobby. However, the words are necessary, they were valid and Dean needed to hear them. With Bobby gone it falls to Sam. He knows that Dean’s intentions were good, but he knows that intentions mean nothing when peoples lives are lost; another harsh lesson he has learned.
I get that some might dislike Sam because of it or worry about their relationship because of it but I’m the opposite. Forgive and forget (as forgive and forget the way this show does it) would have been detrimental to their relationship, not this. Sam’s attitude here is what will save their relationship, not doom it.
It also makes Dean’s mentality much clearer. He has an expectation that what he did should be forgiven and forgotten because he’s ‘family’, as he believes that he has always done. It’s like being a priest, they forgive because it’s their job to forgive, not necessarily because they believe the person in the confessional has earned forgiveness. It’s as if it’s something that Dean believes he should do, forgive/excuse family and go on as before. Sam is different. When Sam forgives he forgives because he understands the person, not because of the role that they play (father, big brother etc). It might take longer to get there, and it might be painful to get there but it’ll be solid.
So this episode, for me, works, which in good in a season where so few of them have. Now I’m hoping it’s going to continue and not just be a fluke.
Oh and I keep forgetting to ask. I’m not a sports nut so someone please explain, “W’s on the board” to me please? Thanks.
Oh and I keep forgetting to ask. I’m not a sports nut so someone please explain, “W’s on the board” to me please? Thanks.
#41/#43 Tim the Enchanter – thank you, very well said.
#41/#43 Tim the Enchanter – thank you, very well said.
[quote name=”digyd”]Oh and I keep forgetting to ask. I’m not a sports nut so someone please explain, “W’s on the board” to me please? Thanks.[/quote]
W = Wins
[quote]Oh and I keep forgetting to ask. I’m not a sports nut so someone please explain, “W’s on the board” to me please? Thanks.[/quote]
W = Wins
Thank you, njspnfan! Probably should have been able to figure that out but oh well.
Thank you, njspnfan! Probably should have been able to figure that out but oh well.
Tim the Enchanter, love your perspective in #41 & 43. Good thoughts.
Tim the Enchanter, love your perspective in #41 & 43. Good thoughts.
Wonderful post Tim, thank you. I couldn’t agree more.
And bamboo, a special thanks to your boyfriend. It’s nice to get a male perspective and I fear njspn is alone out here. It seems to me that most of the posts here come from the female pov and how we think things should be handled. But Sam and dean are male characters and they act as men do and think like men do and solve their problems like men do. Women act emotionally and quickly. Guys resolve their issues at a slower pace. Most of the writers are male and I think sometimes the female fandom forget that. We know what they need to do and we want them to act quickly…unfortunately the male species don’t always act the way we think they should 😀
Sam and dean will resolve their age old issues, but it will happen on their schedule and they will grow and love ea other more for it.
Wonderful post Tim, thank you. I couldn’t agree more.
And bamboo, a special thanks to your boyfriend. It’s nice to get a male perspective and I fear njspn is alone out here. It seems to me that most of the posts here come from the female pov and how we think things should be handled. But Sam and dean are male characters and they act as men do and think like men do and solve their problems like men do. Women act emotionally and quickly. Guys resolve their issues at a slower pace. Most of the writers are male and I think sometimes the female fandom forget that. We know what they need to do and we want them to act quickly…unfortunately the male species don’t always act the way we think they should 😀
Sam and dean will resolve their age old issues, but it will happen on their schedule and they will grow and love ea other more for it.
Bookdai – I have to say that I find your musings on tumbler at lot more to my liking and more akin to my feelings about the show and the brother’s relationship.
Bookdai – I have to say that I find your musings on tumbler at lot more to my liking and more akin to my feelings about the show and the brother’s relationship.
I think that Sam might come to soften a bit when Dean owns what he did and apologizes. Sam also needs to know that Dean will never override his wishes like that again before he can trust him again I guess.
The big difference with season 5 to me is that then Sam apologized what 3, 4 times? And it was clear that he was going to clean up his act. Now, all Dean says is that they’re family and it’s not nearly enough.
Frankly, I don’t understand why Sam stayed with Dean. And I really didn’t like the last scene. Sam almost speaks in riddles and, combined with how little exploration the character gets, we can’t be sure exactly what he means. And of course many fans don’t give him the benefit of the doubt and think the worst of him, especially given the extreme focus on Dean and his man pain this season.
I don’t have many comments about the rest of the episode. Sam knocked out, check. Dean bonds with co-star, check.
GIANT SIGH.
I think that Sam might come to soften a bit when Dean owns what he did and apologizes. Sam also needs to know that Dean will never override his wishes like that again before he can trust him again I guess.
The big difference with season 5 to me is that then Sam apologized what 3, 4 times? And it was clear that he was going to clean up his act. Now, all Dean says is that they’re family and it’s not nearly enough.
Frankly, I don’t understand why Sam stayed with Dean. And I really didn’t like the last scene. Sam almost speaks in riddles and, combined with how little exploration the character gets, we can’t be sure exactly what he means. And of course many fans don’t give him the benefit of the doubt and think the worst of him, especially given the extreme focus on Dean and his man pain this season.
I don’t have many comments about the rest of the episode. Sam knocked out, check. Dean bonds with co-star, check.
GIANT SIGH.
[quote name=”nappi815″]Wonderful post Tim, thank you. I couldn’t agree more.
And bamboo, a special thanks to your boyfriend. It’s nice to get a male perspective and I fear njspn is alone out here. It seems to me that most of the posts here come from the female pov and how we think things should be handled. But Sam and dean are male characters and they act as men do and think like men do and solve their problems like men do. Women act emotionally and quickly. Guys resolve their issues at a slower pace. Most of the writers are male and I think sometimes the female fandom forget that. We know what they need to do and we want them to act quickly…unfortunately the male species don’t always act the way we think they should 😀
Sam and dean will resolve their age old issues, but it will happen on their schedule and they will grow and love ea other more for it.[/quote]
Nappi815 – thanks, got a good laugh out of that. And yes, as one of the few males on this site, it gets lonely. While we men may be slow and emotionally stunted, admit it, you love us anyway 😀
[quote]Wonderful post Tim, thank you. I couldn’t agree more.
And bamboo, a special thanks to your boyfriend. It’s nice to get a male perspective and I fear njspn is alone out here. It seems to me that most of the posts here come from the female pov and how we think things should be handled. But Sam and dean are male characters and they act as men do and think like men do and solve their problems like men do. Women act emotionally and quickly. Guys resolve their issues at a slower pace. Most of the writers are male and I think sometimes the female fandom forget that. We know what they need to do and we want them to act quickly…unfortunately the male species don’t always act the way we think they should 😀
Sam and dean will resolve their age old issues, but it will happen on their schedule and they will grow and love ea other more for it.[/quote]
Nappi815 – thanks, got a good laugh out of that. And yes, as one of the few males on this site, it gets lonely. While we men may be slow and emotionally stunted, admit it, you love us anyway 😀
Njspn please don’t think I was insulting you or the male species. It’s. Just that even though we are all human, we act like we are from different worlds. I’ve always felt men are more logical and women more emotional. I also tend to feel that the direct approach is what the male understands and subtlety doesn’t always get their understanding. I may be way off and I apologize if I am, but it seems to me that guys don’t readily discuss their issues with ea. other, much like us females do. I always thought that the writers portray the boys perfectly in that regard. It’s frustrating for those of us who just want them to deal with it, but as I stated, guys deal with stuff in their own way at their own pace… Don’t get me wrong, In no way was I insulting you or your brothers….men…yes we do have to work on you…but chuck knows we still love ya 😆
Njspn please don’t think I was insulting you or the male species. It’s. Just that even though we are all human, we act like we are from different worlds. I’ve always felt men are more logical and women more emotional. I also tend to feel that the direct approach is what the male understands and subtlety doesn’t always get their understanding. I may be way off and I apologize if I am, but it seems to me that guys don’t readily discuss their issues with ea. other, much like us females do. I always thought that the writers portray the boys perfectly in that regard. It’s frustrating for those of us who just want them to deal with it, but as I stated, guys deal with stuff in their own way at their own pace… Don’t get me wrong, In no way was I insulting you or your brothers….men…yes we do have to work on you…but chuck knows we still love ya 😆
[quote name=”nappi815″]Njspn please don’t think I was insulting you or the male species. It’s. Just that even though we are all human, we act like we are from different worlds. I’ve. Always felt men are logical and women emotional. I also tend to feel that the direct approach is what the male understands and subtlety doesn’t always get their understanding. In no way was I insulting you or your brothers….men…yes we do have to work on you…but chuck knows we still love ya :lol:[/quote]
no offense taken. 😆
[quote]Njspn please don’t think I was insulting you or the male species. It’s. Just that even though we are all human, we act like we are from different worlds. I’ve. Always felt men are logical and women emotional. I also tend to feel that the direct approach is what the male understands and subtlety doesn’t always get their understanding. In no way was I insulting you or your brothers….men…yes we do have to work on you…but chuck knows we still love ya :lol:[/quote]
no offense taken. 😆
So, I really liked this one too 🙂 Yay, Enchanting Tim! I have not read all the comments, but yours emboldened me to post mine for the first time in a while 😆
I know it wasn’t perfect. Villainous monologuing did happen, tis true. And I agree with Bookdal – someone needs to start passing the hat round for the Sam Winchester Concussion Treatment Fund.
But so many. So very many. So very, VERY many echoes of earlier episodes. Some of those echoes felt like positive shout-outs or call-backs or clever mirroring of stories past. Some of them felt like they were a bit too familiar – whether scenes or sets or locations we have explored before.
The cult in Scarecrow (down to the same actor playing the father in both!), Faith, Sam and Dean bumping into each other at the vegan resto in The Mentalists, and getting back together in the end scene of The End (!), the ‘I can’t trust you’ speech from the opener of Season 5 (but reversed), 99 Problems, Lenore and the good vampires from Fresh Blood, all came to mind, though I think the healer’s wife in Faith definitely wins against the rather pedestrian villain of the week this time around.
I’m a Dean Girl, but on the conversation at the end of Sharp Teeth I am totally with Sam. At least on the angel possession thing. I am less convinced on the trials thing. Sam was part of that decision, ill as he was. That one’s not all on Dean.
But the Gadriel thing is. Dean couldn’t bear to let his brother go. I completely understand why. His prime directive is still (always) ‘look after your brother’. It is encoded in his DNA. But even though I understand his action, I understand Sam’s sense of betrayal and anger as well. His horror of possession after the fear and torture of Lucifer, it must be almost unforgivable. So I do think there being consequences for Dean’s choice NOT to let Sam die are inevitable.
And I agree with Tim the Enchanter that Sam’s reaction is mature. They can still ‘work’ together even if Sam cannot forgive Dean at the moment. I think that is entirely believable and MUCH better than him walking off and refusing to speak to Dean as has previously happened.
I think the Mark of Cain exchange conversation could have been better, but I do think at this point Sam being so furious and Dean being so determined to atone for Kevin’s death plus with the urgency of a live case and Garth going missing again all with both Winchesters visibly feeling that they are just about keeping afloat and that their lives really are just one thing after another, I think the lack of histrionics rang true.
I think they wrapped up the Garth story reasonably well. He was alright, but was never a favourite of mine – come back Sheriff Mills, Kevin, Gabriel, Chuck (all is forgiven).
On a shallow note, how GORGEOUS did Jensen look this week. And Jared. Am pro the Ackles beard. Ginger or not. John Showalter knows how to bring the pretty. Although I do wish he would pull the camera back from their faces just a tad sometimes as it makes it hard to focus occasionally.
Plus Dean with the ‘Close the door’ and the knife throwing and the Live Free or Twihard level smoulder throughout….. jeeeeeeeezussss!!! *Fans self* Although, I am not sure if Sam ‘got all tingly’ when Dean ‘took control’ a few times and went into issuing order mode.
So, apart from the reference to Dean stopping Sam with the trials (which smacks of babies and bathwater – understandable, as Sam is pissed) I really liked the scene at the end. And I LOVED how Dean was so inarticulate and couldn’t finish his sentences and Sam understood them anyway. Aww. Both Jensen and Jared rocked that scene I thought.
Talk about ‘finding the nuances’.
And now, as Tim mentioned above, I think the negotiation is on what ‘brother’ means. The eternal big brother/little brother dynamic or brothers in arms or a blend of the two…
But am happy. Roll on next week!
So, I really liked this one too 🙂 Yay, Enchanting Tim! I have not read all the comments, but yours emboldened me to post mine for the first time in a while 😆
I know it wasn’t perfect. Villainous monologuing did happen, tis true. And I agree with Bookdal – someone needs to start passing the hat round for the Sam Winchester Concussion Treatment Fund.
But so many. So very many. So very, VERY many echoes of earlier episodes. Some of those echoes felt like positive shout-outs or call-backs or clever mirroring of stories past. Some of them felt like they were a bit too familiar – whether scenes or sets or locations we have explored before.
The cult in Scarecrow (down to the same actor playing the father in both!), Faith, Sam and Dean bumping into each other at the vegan resto in The Mentalists, and getting back together in the end scene of The End (!), the ‘I can’t trust you’ speech from the opener of Season 5 (but reversed), 99 Problems, Lenore and the good vampires from Fresh Blood, all came to mind, though I think the healer’s wife in Faith definitely wins against the rather pedestrian villain of the week this time around.
I’m a Dean Girl, but on the conversation at the end of Sharp Teeth I am totally with Sam. At least on the angel possession thing. I am less convinced on the trials thing. Sam was part of that decision, ill as he was. That one’s not all on Dean.
But the Gadriel thing is. Dean couldn’t bear to let his brother go. I completely understand why. His prime directive is still (always) ‘look after your brother’. It is encoded in his DNA. But even though I understand his action, I understand Sam’s sense of betrayal and anger as well. His horror of possession after the fear and torture of Lucifer, it must be almost unforgivable. So I do think there being consequences for Dean’s choice NOT to let Sam die are inevitable.
And I agree with Tim the Enchanter that Sam’s reaction is mature. They can still ‘work’ together even if Sam cannot forgive Dean at the moment. I think that is entirely believable and MUCH better than him walking off and refusing to speak to Dean as has previously happened.
I think the Mark of Cain exchange conversation could have been better, but I do think at this point Sam being so furious and Dean being so determined to atone for Kevin’s death plus with the urgency of a live case and Garth going missing again all with both Winchesters visibly feeling that they are just about keeping afloat and that their lives really are just one thing after another, I think the lack of histrionics rang true.
I think they wrapped up the Garth story reasonably well. He was alright, but was never a favourite of mine – come back Sheriff Mills, Kevin, Gabriel, Chuck (all is forgiven).
On a shallow note, how GORGEOUS did Jensen look this week. And Jared. Am pro the Ackles beard. Ginger or not. John Showalter knows how to bring the pretty. Although I do wish he would pull the camera back from their faces just a tad sometimes as it makes it hard to focus occasionally.
Plus Dean with the ‘Close the door’ and the knife throwing and the Live Free or Twihard level smoulder throughout….. jeeeeeeeezussss!!! *Fans self* Although, I am not sure if Sam ‘got all tingly’ when Dean ‘took control’ a few times and went into issuing order mode.
So, apart from the reference to Dean stopping Sam with the trials (which smacks of babies and bathwater – understandable, as Sam is pissed) I really liked the scene at the end. And I LOVED how Dean was so inarticulate and couldn’t finish his sentences and Sam understood them anyway. Aww. Both Jensen and Jared rocked that scene I thought.
Talk about ‘finding the nuances’.
And now, as Tim mentioned above, I think the negotiation is on what ‘brother’ means. The eternal big brother/little brother dynamic or brothers in arms or a blend of the two…
But am happy. Roll on next week!
Thank you Tim @43. This is how I feel about this too. I enjoy your insights on this show. They’re always very clearand articulate.
@49 and 52 : You’re right. I think a lot of the female fans often forget that these are grown men and sometimes men just take longer to figure out emotional stuff and subtlety between men doesn’t always work.
I’m very okay with the pace the brothers are working at emotionally. I grew up with two brothers very close to my own age, so I know from my own personal experiences that such conversations between guys take time, if they ever happen at all. And I’m willing to wait.
I think I mentioned this on some other post somewhere, that they are not women. So expecting these 2 grown men,( who have grown up in a society where men are not socialized to to talk about their feeling all the time) to “hurry up and get to being friends again” is just not understanding how most guys operate.. (However I do expect more than a little awwshucks, arm punching.)
I actually felt positive after the brother’s convo last night. Sam has given Dean an opening to understand and fix what’s wrong. He doesn’t hand wave it or sugar coat what his demands are and calls Dean on his derailing and obfuscation. I feel postive becauseTHAT was a conversation between 2 GROWN men, as much as the two of them are capable of having.
Thank you Tim @43. This is how I feel about this too. I enjoy your insights on this show. They’re always very clearand articulate.
@49 and 52 : You’re right. I think a lot of the female fans often forget that these are grown men and sometimes men just take longer to figure out emotional stuff and subtlety between men doesn’t always work.
I’m very okay with the pace the brothers are working at emotionally. I grew up with two brothers very close to my own age, so I know from my own personal experiences that such conversations between guys take time, if they ever happen at all. And I’m willing to wait.
I think I mentioned this on some other post somewhere, that they are not women. So expecting these 2 grown men,( who have grown up in a society where men are not socialized to to talk about their feeling all the time) to “hurry up and get to being friends again” is just not understanding how most guys operate.. (However I do expect more than a little awwshucks, arm punching.)
I actually felt positive after the brother’s convo last night. Sam has given Dean an opening to understand and fix what’s wrong. He doesn’t hand wave it or sugar coat what his demands are and calls Dean on his derailing and obfuscation. I feel postive becauseTHAT was a conversation between 2 GROWN men, as much as the two of them are capable of having.
[quote]And my argument that we are smack back in the middle of seasons four and five lives on.[/quote]
…For those of you unfamiliar with snow storm Leon the South, specifically Alabama and Georgia, now looks a helluva lot like “99 Problems.” I was consoling myself last night that when normally I’d be at a friend’s house watching the next episode, but that this week I was walking home over [i]snow and ice [/i]back to my apartment having abandoned my car at work due to: a) extreme road conditions, b) idjit drivers, c) road closings from frozen bridges and d) multi-car pile-ups from more idjit drivers. Something told me this week would be disappointing. Luckily, they [i]almost[/i] disappointed me. I’m very pleased I was able to steal my neighbor’s wifi long enough to watch last night’s episode and read/make this post…
It does feel like seasons 4 & 5 right now, but THIS ONE feels like more than that. Did anybody else think this episode was 3-parts Faith, 1-part Let It Bleed (from Garth) and 1-part Bitten? The good reverend’s wife?! We’ve heard that story before!
Still this wasn’t as bad as I’d expected. (Come on, this time last year we got treated with Man’s Best Friends with Benefits, ANYTHING is better!) Although Garth wasn’t goofy :sad:, Sam was too angry/hurt/confused? to deal with the Mark :sad:, but Dean seemed to relent/lighten up ;-), so not a loss. I bet next week will be a riot!
[quote]And my argument that we are smack back in the middle of seasons four and five lives on.[/quote]
…For those of you unfamiliar with snow storm Leon the South, specifically Alabama and Georgia, now looks a helluva lot like “99 Problems.” I was consoling myself last night that when normally I’d be at a friend’s house watching the next episode, but that this week I was walking home over [i]snow and ice [/i]back to my apartment having abandoned my car at work due to: a) extreme road conditions, b) idjit drivers, c) road closings from frozen bridges and d) multi-car pile-ups from more idjit drivers. Something told me this week would be disappointing. Luckily, they [i]almost[/i] disappointed me. I’m very pleased I was able to steal my neighbor’s wifi long enough to watch last night’s episode and read/make this post…
It does feel like seasons 4 & 5 right now, but THIS ONE feels like more than that. Did anybody else think this episode was 3-parts Faith, 1-part Let It Bleed (from Garth) and 1-part Bitten? The good reverend’s wife?! We’ve heard that story before!
Still this wasn’t as bad as I’d expected. (Come on, this time last year we got treated with Man’s Best Friends with Benefits, ANYTHING is better!) Although Garth wasn’t goofy :sad:, Sam was too angry/hurt/confused? to deal with the Mark :sad:, but Dean seemed to relent/lighten up ;-), so not a loss. I bet next week will be a riot!
Hi JuliaG
I’ve never been sure why several people claim Sam never apologised or took responsibility for his actions during S4. He did apologise and said on at least two occasions (5.02 and 5.11) that he couldn’t blame the blood or Ruby for what he did. And as for apologising to Dean for hurting him specifically, Sam tried repeatedly in 5.01 but Dean wouldn’t let him get very far before telling him to shut up 🙂
So yes, I’d like Dean to apologise too and Sam to get lines that aren’t quite so enigmatic. And for them to stop knocking Sam out in EVERY episode!
Hi JuliaG
I’ve never been sure why several people claim Sam never apologised or took responsibility for his actions during S4. He did apologise and said on at least two occasions (5.02 and 5.11) that he couldn’t blame the blood or Ruby for what he did. And as for apologising to Dean for hurting him specifically, Sam tried repeatedly in 5.01 but Dean wouldn’t let him get very far before telling him to shut up 🙂
So yes, I’d like Dean to apologise too and Sam to get lines that aren’t quite so enigmatic. And for them to stop knocking Sam out in EVERY episode!
Just a question – Did anyone else find it a bit hard to swallow that Sam was okay with letting a “good monster” live when he was decidedly NOT okay with Benny?
Just a question – Did anyone else find it a bit hard to swallow that Sam was okay with letting a “good monster” live when he was decidedly NOT okay with Benny?
I had no issue with that, Obsessed, because he and Dean have done that a few times now. Instead, I had some issue with that when he was doing that to Benny, because of those same reasons. I figure the others times, it was a mutual decision by Sam and Dean that someone was friendly (my mind isn’t up for figuring out every instance of this so right now I’m thinking about season 8). With Benny, it wasn’t something they both discussed and agreed to, plus I figure in that case Sam was a bit a jealous and that was what was really fueling him.
I had no issue with that, Obsessed, because he and Dean have done that a few times now. Instead, I had some issue with that when he was doing that to Benny, because of those same reasons. I figure the others times, it was a mutual decision by Sam and Dean that someone was friendly (my mind isn’t up for figuring out every instance of this so right now I’m thinking about season 8). With Benny, it wasn’t something they both discussed and agreed to, plus I figure in that case Sam was a bit a jealous and that was what was really fueling him.
[quote]Just a question – Did anyone else find it a bit hard to swallow that Sam was okay with letting a “good monster” live when he was decidedly NOT okay with Benny?[/quote]
Not really. Garth had Sam (and Dean) meet the werewolves so they could judge for themselves. Dean kept Benny hidden like a dirty little secret. Sam had a chance to make up his own mind about the weres. With Benny, he had to rely on Dean who bonded with Benny in Purgatory when Benny helped him escape, much like Sam trusting Ruby because she helped him get through Dean’s death.
Real life example when my ex and I were having problems he called a mutual female friend and met with her to talk. He told me about it and I had no concerns. I knew her and he was being above board. After I asked for a divorce (based on other issues) I found out that he had been meeting another woman without telling me for six months. No matter how many times he told me that nothing sexual happened and that she was a good and honorable woman, I didn’t believe him, because why keep her a secret if it were all above board?
Knowing the person (monster) and being able to assess them makes all the difference in the world.
[quote]Just a question – Did anyone else find it a bit hard to swallow that Sam was okay with letting a “good monster” live when he was decidedly NOT okay with Benny?[/quote]
Not really. Garth had Sam (and Dean) meet the werewolves so they could judge for themselves. Dean kept Benny hidden like a dirty little secret. Sam had a chance to make up his own mind about the weres. With Benny, he had to rely on Dean who bonded with Benny in Purgatory when Benny helped him escape, much like Sam trusting Ruby because she helped him get through Dean’s death.
Real life example when my ex and I were having problems he called a mutual female friend and met with her to talk. He told me about it and I had no concerns. I knew her and he was being above board. After I asked for a divorce (based on other issues) I found out that he had been meeting another woman without telling me for six months. No matter how many times he told me that nothing sexual happened and that she was a good and honorable woman, I didn’t believe him, because why keep her a secret if it were all above board?
Knowing the person (monster) and being able to assess them makes all the difference in the world.
[quote name=”obsessed”]Just a question – Did anyone else find it a bit hard to swallow that Sam was okay with letting a “good monster” live when he was decidedly NOT okay with Benny?[/quote]
I think Sam’s attitude in that case was more jealousy than anything else, although Dean keeping Benny a secret from him was also a factor
[quote]Just a question – Did anyone else find it a bit hard to swallow that Sam was okay with letting a “good monster” live when he was decidedly NOT okay with Benny?[/quote]
I think Sam’s attitude in that case was more jealousy than anything else, although Dean keeping Benny a secret from him was also a factor
[quote name=”percysowner”]
Knowing the person (monster) and being able to assess them makes all the difference in the world.[/quote]
And that’s why the guys will get back together. Nobody knows the Winchesters like themselves. They’re just going through the growing pains of needing to be rational 30-somethings instead of rash 20-somethings. Both brothers have to learn something about the other: Dean has to learn to see Sam as a (often better) decision-making adult and not his “pain in the ass [i]little[/i] brother,” while Sam has to realize that his idol, big bad older brother, is (obviously) not infallible. Sam’s biggest problem throughout the series is that rarely anyone’s ever asked Sam what Sam wants…except maybe Amelia and even though she was hated possibly by everyone except me he realized what he wanted, like the way Dean felt when living with Lisa. Sam’s character is interesting because is conflicting: he likes research, being logical, and normally has a good grasp on his emotions by keeping cool, reserved even when its dire UNLESS the conflict comes from him being ‘different’ or younger. It surprises me that they don’t let Jared act out more after what Dean did, but that would be a Dean response. Sam just doesn’t want anyone to get hurt because of him and the more people that die from demons after he chose not to make the close eats at him, but he still got back in the Impala. That’s a start.
The real reason I like this show is because I wished I had an older brother to kick my ass back in line, but now that I’m older somehow I figure I’d throw a Dean-style fit over still getting treated like a teenager then again I’d probably be waaaay too much of an over-protective older sibling, too. Doesn’t seem like such a bad flaw to me.
[quote]
Knowing the person (monster) and being able to assess them makes all the difference in the world.[/quote]
And that’s why the guys will get back together. Nobody knows the Winchesters like themselves. They’re just going through the growing pains of needing to be rational 30-somethings instead of rash 20-somethings. Both brothers have to learn something about the other: Dean has to learn to see Sam as a (often better) decision-making adult and not his “pain in the ass [i]little[/i] brother,” while Sam has to realize that his idol, big bad older brother, is (obviously) not infallible. Sam’s biggest problem throughout the series is that rarely anyone’s ever asked Sam what Sam wants…except maybe Amelia and even though she was hated possibly by everyone except me he realized what he wanted, like the way Dean felt when living with Lisa. Sam’s character is interesting because is conflicting: he likes research, being logical, and normally has a good grasp on his emotions by keeping cool, reserved even when its dire UNLESS the conflict comes from him being ‘different’ or younger. It surprises me that they don’t let Jared act out more after what Dean did, but that would be a Dean response. Sam just doesn’t want anyone to get hurt because of him and the more people that die from demons after he chose not to make the close eats at him, but he still got back in the Impala. That’s a start.
The real reason I like this show is because I wished I had an older brother to kick my ass back in line, but now that I’m older somehow I figure I’d throw a Dean-style fit over still getting treated like a teenager then again I’d probably be waaaay too much of an over-protective older sibling, too. Doesn’t seem like such a bad flaw to me.
Addendum: On the subject of the Ackles designer stubble:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7UGjNKKXH8
😉
Addendum: On the subject of the Ackles designer stubble:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7UGjNKKXH8
😉
[quote name=”percysowner”][quote]Just a question – Did anyone else find it a bit hard to swallow that Sam was okay with letting a “good monster” live when he was decidedly NOT okay with Benny?[/quote]
Not really. Garth had Sam (and Dean) meet the werewolves so they could judge for themselves. Dean kept Benny hidden like a dirty little secret. Sam had a chance to make up his own mind about the weres. With Benny, he had to rely on Dean who bonded with Benny in Purgatory when Benny helped him escape, much like Sam trusting Ruby because she helped him get through Dean’s death.
Real life example when my ex and I were having problems he called a mutual female friend and met with her to talk. He told me about it and I had no concerns. I knew her and he was being above board. After I asked for a divorce (based on other issues) I found out that he had been meeting another woman without telling me for six months. No matter how many times he told me that nothing sexual happened and that she was a good and honorable woman, I didn’t believe him, because why keep her a secret if it were all above board?
Knowing the person (monster) and being able to assess them makes all the difference in the world.[/quote]
I agree with this. Secret made it all worst. Also If I may add, Sam’s problem with Benny is because Dean somehow trust the vampire more than him. Remembering Sam’s speech in sacrifice that Sam felt that Dean trusts a vampire and an Angel over him. These boys are not only co-dependence but possessive too towards each other. Not to mention the double standard.
[quote][quote]Just a question – Did anyone else find it a bit hard to swallow that Sam was okay with letting a “good monster” live when he was decidedly NOT okay with Benny?[/quote]
Not really. Garth had Sam (and Dean) meet the werewolves so they could judge for themselves. Dean kept Benny hidden like a dirty little secret. Sam had a chance to make up his own mind about the weres. With Benny, he had to rely on Dean who bonded with Benny in Purgatory when Benny helped him escape, much like Sam trusting Ruby because she helped him get through Dean’s death.
Real life example when my ex and I were having problems he called a mutual female friend and met with her to talk. He told me about it and I had no concerns. I knew her and he was being above board. After I asked for a divorce (based on other issues) I found out that he had been meeting another woman without telling me for six months. No matter how many times he told me that nothing sexual happened and that she was a good and honorable woman, I didn’t believe him, because why keep her a secret if it were all above board?
Knowing the person (monster) and being able to assess them makes all the difference in the world.[/quote]
I agree with this. Secret made it all worst. Also If I may add, Sam’s problem with Benny is because Dean somehow trust the vampire more than him. Remembering Sam’s speech in sacrifice that Sam felt that Dean trusts a vampire and an Angel over him. These boys are not only co-dependence but possessive too towards each other. Not to mention the double standard.
Someone reminded me that the voice mail in Lucifer Rising called Sam a vampire who Dean is going to kill for drinking blood. Even without the voice mail Dean’s disgust and willingness to let Sam die because he drank blood was obvious.
Then Dean protects a real vampire, calling him a better brother than Sam. He makes it clear that what he rejected Sam for and will never accept in Sam, he’s willing to embrace in Benny. You can say it’s because it’s demon blood, but in the end Dean tells Sam that a creature that routinely, at one time, killed people by drinking their blood is better than Sam, who only deliberately killed one person by drinking blood and who used the power of Ruby’s blood to save people, including an entire town.
For those who are going to nitpick. Sam did kill the demon who was attacking Jimmy Novajk’s family, but since Sam, Dean and Jimmy went there to save the family, the demons would have been killed one way or the other. Sam also reacted LIKE EVERYONE ELSE to famine, but he did everything he could to not drink. Finally if you are going to bring up the blood in Swan Song, Dean was helping kill and drain those demons. Basically Benny was clear he killed for a couple of hundred years before he met Andrea which meant he drained many more victims than Sam.
Someone reminded me that the voice mail in Lucifer Rising called Sam a vampire who Dean is going to kill for drinking blood. Even without the voice mail Dean’s disgust and willingness to let Sam die because he drank blood was obvious.
Then Dean protects a real vampire, calling him a better brother than Sam. He makes it clear that what he rejected Sam for and will never accept in Sam, he’s willing to embrace in Benny. You can say it’s because it’s demon blood, but in the end Dean tells Sam that a creature that routinely, at one time, killed people by drinking their blood is better than Sam, who only deliberately killed one person by drinking blood and who used the power of Ruby’s blood to save people, including an entire town.
For those who are going to nitpick. Sam did kill the demon who was attacking Jimmy Novajk’s family, but since Sam, Dean and Jimmy went there to save the family, the demons would have been killed one way or the other. Sam also reacted LIKE EVERYONE ELSE to famine, but he did everything he could to not drink. Finally if you are going to bring up the blood in Swan Song, Dean was helping kill and drain those demons. Basically Benny was clear he killed for a couple of hundred years before he met Andrea which meant he drained many more victims than Sam.
All really good points in response to my question but it still bothered me a bit. First, to the best of my recollection, it was always Sam who advocated giving monsters/demons a chance to prove themselves. From the rugaroo, Madison in Heat, Lenore and the vampire nest,to Ruby and his childhood friend (who Dean sneaked off to kill) Sam was the one who convinced or tried to convince Dean to let them live. These were all people who neither of them knew or only Sam had a relationship or experience with so he stood up for them.
Except Benny.
With Benny it seemed like from the very first meeting he had a problem with him.
Most of the other stuff that hurt Sam (as reguards Benny) came later and doesnt really explain his instant reaction.
Second, one of the things I have always admired about Sam is that, in spite of all the things he has seen in his life, he was still looking for the good in others. Hoping for the best but prepared for the worst. It seemed a bit unlike him to judge someone so quickly like that.
I love Sam & while I’m glad he hasn’t lost that piece of himself, I was a bit bothered that he was willing to give that whole pack of werewolves a pass so quickly after his reaction to Benny at the first handshake.
All really good points in response to my question but it still bothered me a bit. First, to the best of my recollection, it was always Sam who advocated giving monsters/demons a chance to prove themselves. From the rugaroo, Madison in Heat, Lenore and the vampire nest,to Ruby and his childhood friend (who Dean sneaked off to kill) Sam was the one who convinced or tried to convince Dean to let them live. These were all people who neither of them knew or only Sam had a relationship or experience with so he stood up for them.
Except Benny.
With Benny it seemed like from the very first meeting he had a problem with him.
Most of the other stuff that hurt Sam (as reguards Benny) came later and doesnt really explain his instant reaction.
Second, one of the things I have always admired about Sam is that, in spite of all the things he has seen in his life, he was still looking for the good in others. Hoping for the best but prepared for the worst. It seemed a bit unlike him to judge someone so quickly like that.
I love Sam & while I’m glad he hasn’t lost that piece of himself, I was a bit bothered that he was willing to give that whole pack of werewolves a pass so quickly after his reaction to Benny at the first handshake.
[quote]Kaj – Now this is also a calling to all fans who were very vocal on their reactions in defending Dean during season 5. Now that Dean did the same thing what do they feel. Also for Sam’s girls who were rallying and protecting Sam, saying Sam had felt sorry enough and Dean was cruel for not forgiving Sam. Now, will they say that Sam is being too cruel for disowning Dean? Because after all what Den did is just trying to save Sam in anyway he knew how.
Or do we have double standard for our fav character?
I know you can’t blame Sam this time, Alice. I can’t remember what your reaction during season 5 but I do hope that you too were not blaming Dean for not forgiving Sam during season 5.
For Sam’s fans out there, remember Dean did the same thing to Sam during season 5, what did your reaction at the time?
For Dean’s fans out there, Well, this man had it coming. Perhaps now that he knows what Sam feels, he will stop accusing Sam of his past mistakes and learn to really let go.[/quote]
Ah, season five. Such a simpler time! At the time, only Elle2 and I were reviewers, and I wrote my reviews on Blogcritics. I’m sure others can’t pull up what they said about Dean’s actions in Sympathy for The Devil, but I can:
http://blogcritics.org/tv-review-supernatural-sympathy-for-the/
I wasn’t overly critical of Dean back then and I’m not overly critical of Sam now. They’re human. They’re flawed. They hurt. It’s all going somewhere, and it’ll take some time.
I’m uncertain by the motive of your comment, or why the issue of Dean’s behavior in S5 is being raised. It’s a parallel sure, but it almost sounds like this is an instigation for Sam vs. Dean. Both were hurting back then, both are hurting now. Sam is right to not trust Dean right now, just like Dean was right not to trust Sam back then.
So, what’s the issue you’re trying to bring up here? Fans have double standards? Fan behavior is not relevant to the conversation and not on the table for discussion. The way the brothers are presented in the episodes, that’s relevant.
[quote]Kaj – Now this is also a calling to all fans who were very vocal on their reactions in defending Dean during season 5. Now that Dean did the same thing what do they feel. Also for Sam’s girls who were rallying and protecting Sam, saying Sam had felt sorry enough and Dean was cruel for not forgiving Sam. Now, will they say that Sam is being too cruel for disowning Dean? Because after all what Den did is just trying to save Sam in anyway he knew how.
Or do we have double standard for our fav character?
I know you can’t blame Sam this time, Alice. I can’t remember what your reaction during season 5 but I do hope that you too were not blaming Dean for not forgiving Sam during season 5.
For Sam’s fans out there, remember Dean did the same thing to Sam during season 5, what did your reaction at the time?
For Dean’s fans out there, Well, this man had it coming. Perhaps now that he knows what Sam feels, he will stop accusing Sam of his past mistakes and learn to really let go.[/quote]
Ah, season five. Such a simpler time! At the time, only Elle2 and I were reviewers, and I wrote my reviews on Blogcritics. I’m sure others can’t pull up what they said about Dean’s actions in Sympathy for The Devil, but I can:
http://blogcritics.org/tv-review-supernatural-sympathy-for-the/
I wasn’t overly critical of Dean back then and I’m not overly critical of Sam now. They’re human. They’re flawed. They hurt. It’s all going somewhere, and it’ll take some time.
I’m uncertain by the motive of your comment, or why the issue of Dean’s behavior in S5 is being raised. It’s a parallel sure, but it almost sounds like this is an instigation for Sam vs. Dean. Both were hurting back then, both are hurting now. Sam is right to not trust Dean right now, just like Dean was right not to trust Sam back then.
So, what’s the issue you’re trying to bring up here? Fans have double standards? Fan behavior is not relevant to the conversation and not on the table for discussion. The way the brothers are presented in the episodes, that’s relevant.
Alice,
[quote]Now this is also a calling to all fans who were …. [/quote]
By “This” I mean this episode or season 9 in general (not my comment). I probably didn’t make it clear and I’m sorry for that. (That’s why I shouldn’t have commented when I should’ve slept). As I said before I have a tendency to look behind the veil aka what’s the message that this episode or season 9 in general is trying to convey. Because sometimes it’s hard for us in this side as viewers to decipher what the writer’s trying to tell us without actually telling. Imagine being on the other side as I writer, trying to write a scene and dialogue to tell something to the reader without being so obvious about it.
After episode 9.4 (Charlie’s episode) there are commenters (or was it a reviewer) who said that the episode is also a call towards the very vocal fans who wrote to the writers about a certain shipper? (correct me if I’m wrong) When the writer made Sam saying “This is our life, we get to write our own story” or something like that. My comment is also like that. I feel, that’s what I feel after I look back and re-watch 9.02 because Sam’s line in 9.02 is connected to season 4 and by addition 5, this episode are also indirectly connected to those seasons. I’m just saying that we almost can’t see a Supernatural episode as a purely stand alone without being influenced by past seasons. JC said that the writers would not neglect what had happened in past seasons. I think that statement means they will make it as a background for developing the story in season 8 and 9 and beyond. So, with that in mind I came up with this comment.
That this episode (or season 9 in general) is how the writer trying to say all of those things above that I said in my previous comments but without being obvious in stating it in dialogue. “Now that the table is turned, what do you think?” I keep smiling when I’m thinking about this because it’s kinda fun to think about. My girlfriend is Sam-girl and she’s very adamant that Dean was too cruel to Sam during season 5 saying that Sam was only trying to do the right thing, took what he thought as the right path to end Lilith and Dean should’ve seen that but now that Dean is in similar place (Not the same place but similar enough to invoke a similar dialogue out of Sam) She couldn’t give Dean the same opinion that she gave Sam years ago. That’s what I mean by double standard.
I’m just interpreting what I think the episode and the show is trying to say. What’s the message they’re trying to convey. Last season 7, I complained, maybe not just me, about the way the show handled Sam’s hallucination. This season, I think, overall is better written. Every episode are not disjointed. When they wrote a dialogue about GOT, the next episode showed a thing of GOT. When they wrote an episode about Oz, the next episode showed Sam reading The Wizard of Oz. Each episode is connected and what happened to Sam is not neglected and handled better. That’s why I start to think about this season as a whole and I can feel the concept is starting to take shape here.
So, what’s the issue you’re trying to bring up here? Fans have double standards? Fan behavior is not relevant to the conversation and not on the table for discussion. The way the brothers are presented in the episodes, that’s relevant.
If my comment before came across as an instigation for Sam vs. Dean, I’m sorry that’s not what I mean at all. I probably don’t write it the right way. If fan’s behavior is not relevant then what about what commenter/reviewer said after 9.02 was aired? They said that the dialogue during the last scene is the writer’s answer for certain fans’ reaction. I’m saying the same thing, that this episode is the writer’s way of asking “Now that the table is turned, what do you think?” It tickles me when I know about what my girlfriend thinks of it.
[quote]I wasn’t overly critical of Dean back then and I’m not overly critical of Sam now. [/quote]
I believe you. Just like I can’t fault Dean for splitting at 5.02 for telling Sam that he couldn’t trust him anymore. This episode is just the show’s way of telling Sam that, “Now you know what it feels to be betrayed by your brother, Sam. You react in the similar fashion to what Dean reacted back then.” The writers not only tell that to Sam but also to the viewers.
Again I’m sorry If you think my opinion has come across as too volatile and instigating a war. It’s not. It’s just what I feel this episode and this season as a whole trying to say to us viewers. If you’re offended, I’m sorry. If anyone offended, I’m sorry too.
Alice,
[quote]Now this is also a calling to all fans who were …. [/quote]
By “This” I mean this episode or season 9 in general (not my comment). I probably didn’t make it clear and I’m sorry for that. (That’s why I shouldn’t have commented when I should’ve slept). As I said before I have a tendency to look behind the veil aka what’s the message that this episode or season 9 in general is trying to convey. Because sometimes it’s hard for us in this side as viewers to decipher what the writer’s trying to tell us without actually telling. Imagine being on the other side as I writer, trying to write a scene and dialogue to tell something to the reader without being so obvious about it.
After episode 9.4 (Charlie’s episode) there are commenters (or was it a reviewer) who said that the episode is also a call towards the very vocal fans who wrote to the writers about a certain shipper? (correct me if I’m wrong) When the writer made Sam saying “This is our life, we get to write our own story” or something like that. My comment is also like that. I feel, that’s what I feel after I look back and re-watch 9.02 because Sam’s line in 9.02 is connected to season 4 and by addition 5, this episode are also indirectly connected to those seasons. I’m just saying that we almost can’t see a Supernatural episode as a purely stand alone without being influenced by past seasons. JC said that the writers would not neglect what had happened in past seasons. I think that statement means they will make it as a background for developing the story in season 8 and 9 and beyond. So, with that in mind I came up with this comment.
That this episode (or season 9 in general) is how the writer trying to say all of those things above that I said in my previous comments but without being obvious in stating it in dialogue. “Now that the table is turned, what do you think?” I keep smiling when I’m thinking about this because it’s kinda fun to think about. My girlfriend is Sam-girl and she’s very adamant that Dean was too cruel to Sam during season 5 saying that Sam was only trying to do the right thing, took what he thought as the right path to end Lilith and Dean should’ve seen that but now that Dean is in similar place (Not the same place but similar enough to invoke a similar dialogue out of Sam) She couldn’t give Dean the same opinion that she gave Sam years ago. That’s what I mean by double standard.
I’m just interpreting what I think the episode and the show is trying to say. What’s the message they’re trying to convey. Last season 7, I complained, maybe not just me, about the way the show handled Sam’s hallucination. This season, I think, overall is better written. Every episode are not disjointed. When they wrote a dialogue about GOT, the next episode showed a thing of GOT. When they wrote an episode about Oz, the next episode showed Sam reading The Wizard of Oz. Each episode is connected and what happened to Sam is not neglected and handled better. That’s why I start to think about this season as a whole and I can feel the concept is starting to take shape here.
So, what’s the issue you’re trying to bring up here? Fans have double standards? Fan behavior is not relevant to the conversation and not on the table for discussion. The way the brothers are presented in the episodes, that’s relevant.
If my comment before came across as an instigation for Sam vs. Dean, I’m sorry that’s not what I mean at all. I probably don’t write it the right way. If fan’s behavior is not relevant then what about what commenter/reviewer said after 9.02 was aired? They said that the dialogue during the last scene is the writer’s answer for certain fans’ reaction. I’m saying the same thing, that this episode is the writer’s way of asking “Now that the table is turned, what do you think?” It tickles me when I know about what my girlfriend thinks of it.
[quote]I wasn’t overly critical of Dean back then and I’m not overly critical of Sam now. [/quote]
I believe you. Just like I can’t fault Dean for splitting at 5.02 for telling Sam that he couldn’t trust him anymore. This episode is just the show’s way of telling Sam that, “Now you know what it feels to be betrayed by your brother, Sam. You react in the similar fashion to what Dean reacted back then.” The writers not only tell that to Sam but also to the viewers.
Again I’m sorry If you think my opinion has come across as too volatile and instigating a war. It’s not. It’s just what I feel this episode and this season as a whole trying to say to us viewers. If you’re offended, I’m sorry. If anyone offended, I’m sorry too.
I am very happy to see how incredibly civil everyone is being. I’ll admit that I was scared there would be an all out commenting war after that conversation at the end of Sharp Teeth. That was tough to watch, and I did feel that Sam was being harsh, and I hated how much it hurt Dean. But it had to happen, Dean needs to see that he crossed a line where Sam is concerned, and that his forgiving little brother isn’t going to be so forgiving this time.
The one thing I categorically disagree with is the notion that Sam disowned Dean in that scene. That is not my interpretation of what he said at all. I even went back to the episode numerous times to make sure for myself. Here is the dialog thanks to Superwiki:
SAM -But something’s broken here, Dean.
DEAN – I’m not saying that it’s not. I… I just think maybe we need to put a couple W’s on the board and we get past all this.
SAM – I don’t think so. No, I-I wish, but… We don’t…see things the same way anymore — our roles in this whole thing. Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up hell? Or — or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? I can’t trust you — not the way I thought I could, not the way I should be able to.
DEAN – Okay, look. Whatever happened… We are family, okay?
SAM – You say that like it’s some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we’re family.
DEAN – So, what — we’re not family now?
SAM – I’m saying, you want to work? Let’s work. If you want to be brothers…[He pauses, letting DEAN fill in the blank] Those are my terms.
It’s true that Sam is often given cryptic and enigmatic, ‘you need to fill in the blanks youself’ dialog which can be frustrating, but if Sam meant that they couldn’t be brothers, then he would never have gotten back into the Impala IMO. My take on this is that, if they want to have a working relationship, then fine, they’ll work, but if they want to be brothers then things need to change. I don’t see this as disownment, I see it as Sam demanding that their relationship as brothers change, and that maybe for the first time in their relationship, he’s insisting on it. Sam has always been forgiving, maybe even too forgiving, especially when it comes to Dean. But not this time. So, as painful as it was to see, and as harsh as it sounded, as much as it hurt Dean, this needed to happen. If Dean isn’t hurt by Sam’s reaction, then he’ll just repeat those actions the next time Sam’s in trouble. It’s necessary even though it’s all hurty and hard. *wibble* 😥
I am very happy to see how incredibly civil everyone is being. I’ll admit that I was scared there would be an all out commenting war after that conversation at the end of Sharp Teeth. That was tough to watch, and I did feel that Sam was being harsh, and I hated how much it hurt Dean. But it had to happen, Dean needs to see that he crossed a line where Sam is concerned, and that his forgiving little brother isn’t going to be so forgiving this time.
The one thing I categorically disagree with is the notion that Sam disowned Dean in that scene. That is not my interpretation of what he said at all. I even went back to the episode numerous times to make sure for myself. Here is the dialog thanks to Superwiki:
SAM -But something’s broken here, Dean.
DEAN – I’m not saying that it’s not. I… I just think maybe we need to put a couple W’s on the board and we get past all this.
SAM – I don’t think so. No, I-I wish, but… We don’t…see things the same way anymore — our roles in this whole thing. Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up hell? Or — or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? I can’t trust you — not the way I thought I could, not the way I should be able to.
DEAN – Okay, look. Whatever happened… We are family, okay?
SAM – You say that like it’s some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we’re family.
DEAN – So, what — we’re not family now?
SAM – I’m saying, you want to work? Let’s work. If you want to be brothers…[He pauses, letting DEAN fill in the blank] Those are my terms.
It’s true that Sam is often given cryptic and enigmatic, ‘you need to fill in the blanks youself’ dialog which can be frustrating, but if Sam meant that they couldn’t be brothers, then he would never have gotten back into the Impala IMO. My take on this is that, if they want to have a working relationship, then fine, they’ll work, but if they want to be brothers then things need to change. I don’t see this as disownment, I see it as Sam demanding that their relationship as brothers change, and that maybe for the first time in their relationship, he’s insisting on it. Sam has always been forgiving, maybe even too forgiving, especially when it comes to Dean. But not this time. So, as painful as it was to see, and as harsh as it sounded, as much as it hurt Dean, this needed to happen. If Dean isn’t hurt by Sam’s reaction, then he’ll just repeat those actions the next time Sam’s in trouble. It’s necessary even though it’s all hurty and hard. *wibble* 😥
#41 and #43 Tim
So loving your posts. You said exactly what I was thinking. My only quibble with the episode is that Sam went with Dean. I would have preferred that they spent some more time apart in order for them to really consider everything that has happened.
I, too, think that Sam was telling Dean that in order for them to be brothers again, Dean needs to examine his choices and come to the conclusion that he was wrong on his own which is why I would have preferred them to have gone their separate ways.
#41 and #43 Tim
So loving your posts. You said exactly what I was thinking. My only quibble with the episode is that Sam went with Dean. I would have preferred that they spent some more time apart in order for them to really consider everything that has happened.
I, too, think that Sam was telling Dean that in order for them to be brothers again, Dean needs to examine his choices and come to the conclusion that he was wrong on his own which is why I would have preferred them to have gone their separate ways.
Wow,Loving how they are portraying Sam.The dialogue between Sam and Dean at the end was extremely good .I was commenting at the earlier episodes that i want to know what Sam thinks and I thank the tptb for doing that.
I am excited for how they will move forward with the brothers relation.
The reaction to this situation I find interesting especially when comparing with season 5.When it was Sam in season 4 the complaints have not yet stopped but when it is Dean now well Sam is just wrong for doing the same thing and not being snarky on top of that. When Dean is desperate Sam has to understand because they “are family” but when Sam did “those things which Dean freaked about and was punching Sam” well they were “not a family” I think.I loved Sam’s reaction when Dean revealed about mark of cain it reminded me of Season 5 when Sam told about being Lucifer’s vessel to Dean.The double standards are so glaring it is hilarious.Maybe the writers want Dean to understand that Sam too can be desperate as Dean.
I had commented once I wanted to see what will happen if the situations were reversed.Well I am liking what I am seeing and I hope this continues for same amount of time that tptb did this to Sam .
Wow,Loving how they are portraying Sam.The dialogue between Sam and Dean at the end was extremely good .I was commenting at the earlier episodes that i want to know what Sam thinks and I thank the tptb for doing that.
I am excited for how they will move forward with the brothers relation.
The reaction to this situation I find interesting especially when comparing with season 5.When it was Sam in season 4 the complaints have not yet stopped but when it is Dean now well Sam is just wrong for doing the same thing and not being snarky on top of that. When Dean is desperate Sam has to understand because they “are family” but when Sam did “those things which Dean freaked about and was punching Sam” well they were “not a family” I think.I loved Sam’s reaction when Dean revealed about mark of cain it reminded me of Season 5 when Sam told about being Lucifer’s vessel to Dean.The double standards are so glaring it is hilarious.Maybe the writers want Dean to understand that Sam too can be desperate as Dean.
I had commented once I wanted to see what will happen if the situations were reversed.Well I am liking what I am seeing and I hope this continues for same amount of time that tptb did this to Sam .
(Edited by Alice. We are trying to maintain a positive tone here. I’ve already addressed earlier in the posts that attacking fandom behavior is off topic. If you’re frustrated with the way the writing is handled that is fine, just saw so and keep it rational. Thank you.)
(Edited by Alice. We are trying to maintain a positive tone here. I’ve already addressed earlier in the posts that attacking fandom behavior is off topic. If you’re frustrated with the way the writing is handled that is fine, just saw so and keep it rational. Thank you.)
Wow, where do I start?
First of all this is not the first time that both Dean and Sam have given a monster a pass. It doesn’t happen too often but at some time or another and for one reason or another they will let one go.
Secondly, I’m not sure whether to feel sorry for Garth for getting turned or happy for him for finding true love. Reality check. This is after all Supernatural and we know how well true love works out in this series (not too good).
I initially thought it was odd that Sam did not react more strongly to Dean receiving the mark of Cain, but then it occurred to me that Sam was preoccupied with having his own snit fit at the time. I am sure we will back to revisit that subject after Sam has a chance to cool down and think about it.
Finally, WTF are they doing to Dean/Jensen’s face with the overly groomed and fussy beard? STOP IT! That isn’t the Dean we know and love.
Wow, where do I start?
First of all this is not the first time that both Dean and Sam have given a monster a pass. It doesn’t happen too often but at some time or another and for one reason or another they will let one go.
Secondly, I’m not sure whether to feel sorry for Garth for getting turned or happy for him for finding true love. Reality check. This is after all Supernatural and we know how well true love works out in this series (not too good).
I initially thought it was odd that Sam did not react more strongly to Dean receiving the mark of Cain, but then it occurred to me that Sam was preoccupied with having his own snit fit at the time. I am sure we will back to revisit that subject after Sam has a chance to cool down and think about it.
Finally, WTF are they doing to Dean/Jensen’s face with the overly groomed and fussy beard? STOP IT! That isn’t the Dean we know and love.
[quote name=”obsessed”]All really good points in response to my question but it still bothered me a bit. First, to the best of my recollection, it was always Sam who advocated giving monsters/demons a chance to prove themselves. From the rugaroo, Madison in Heat, Lenore and the vampire nest,to Ruby and his childhood friend (who Dean sneaked off to kill) Sam was the one who convinced or tried to convince Dean to let them live. These were all people who neither of them knew or only Sam had a relationship or experience with so he stood up for them.
Except Benny.
[b]With Benny it seemed like from the very first meeting he had a problem with him.[/b]
Most of the other stuff that hurt Sam (as reguards Benny) came later and doesnt really explain his instant reaction.
Second, one of the things I have always admired about Sam is that, in spite of all the things he has seen in his life, he was still looking for the good in others. Hoping for the best but prepared for the worst. It seemed a bit unlike him to judge someone so quickly like that.
I love Sam & while I’m glad he hasn’t lost that piece of himself, I was a bit bothered that he was willing to give that whole pack of werewolves a pass so quickly [b]after his reaction to Benny at the first handshake.[/b][/quote]I am sorry ,I really don’t understand how his reaction was different for Benny.If Sam had immediately killed Benny or gone behind Dean to kill him initially I would have agreed with you but he did not.
[quote]All really good points in response to my question but it still bothered me a bit. First, to the best of my recollection, it was always Sam who advocated giving monsters/demons a chance to prove themselves. From the rugaroo, Madison in Heat, Lenore and the vampire nest,to Ruby and his childhood friend (who Dean sneaked off to kill) Sam was the one who convinced or tried to convince Dean to let them live. These were all people who neither of them knew or only Sam had a relationship or experience with so he stood up for them.
Except Benny.
[b]With Benny it seemed like from the very first meeting he had a problem with him.[/b]
Most of the other stuff that hurt Sam (as reguards Benny) came later and doesnt really explain his instant reaction.
Second, one of the things I have always admired about Sam is that, in spite of all the things he has seen in his life, he was still looking for the good in others. Hoping for the best but prepared for the worst. It seemed a bit unlike him to judge someone so quickly like that.
I love Sam & while I’m glad he hasn’t lost that piece of himself, I was a bit bothered that he was willing to give that whole pack of werewolves a pass so quickly [b]after his reaction to Benny at the first handshake.[/b][/quote]I am sorry ,I really don’t understand how his reaction was different for Benny.If Sam had immediately killed Benny or gone behind Dean to kill him initially I would have agreed with you but he did not.
[quote name=”AnnieE”]
Finally, WTF are they doing to Dean/Jensen’s face with the overly groomed and fussy beard? STOP IT! That isn’t the Dean we know and love.[/quote]
I believe we are supposed to take the facial hair as their way of “mourning.” All I know is I love him any way he comes! 😆
[quote]
Finally, WTF are they doing to Dean/Jensen’s face with the overly groomed and fussy beard? STOP IT! That isn’t the Dean we know and love.[/quote]
I believe we are supposed to take the facial hair as their way of “mourning.” All I know is I love him any way he comes! 😆
I need the DARK side of the story line again- It seems that the program has acquiesed to the PC crowd- the really gut hitting darkness of their hunting is gone- the “on the edge” throughout the story line is gone- They have become mockeries of themselves- Are they tired of the show??? Help someone- make it more like the earlier episodes- Give me the WINCHESTERS again-
I need the DARK side of the story line again- It seems that the program has acquiesed to the PC crowd- the really gut hitting darkness of their hunting is gone- the “on the edge” throughout the story line is gone- They have become mockeries of themselves- Are they tired of the show??? Help someone- make it more like the earlier episodes- Give me the WINCHESTERS again-