Dear Jeremy – We Always End Up Here
Dear Jeremy,
Why? That is the question I would ask you if I had the chance to speak with you face to face. Why break down the brother’s bond? Why strip away everything we hold sacred in their relationship? Why spend a great deal of time, in fact dozens of episodes, to establish that both Sam and Dean are capable of treating each other in ways that make them barely recognizable. Since before the beginning of season 8, you said you wanted a more “mature” relationship between the brothers. Even then I asked myself, “Why?” They are dysfunctional and codependent. They are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over again. Dean continually sacrifices the needs of the many for the needs of the few, or the one. To quote one of Sam’s most unforgettable lines ever, “So?”
The phrase “heart and soul” has been used repeatedly to describe that the love the brothers have for each other is the core of Supernatural. It is what distinguishes it from other shows. The fact that they will do anything for each other is what makes the show larger than life. Dean sold his soul so that Sammy could live. Sam chose to remember the horrors of Hell and endure months of the ensuing psychological warfare rather than leave his brother alone. When you took over as Showrunner, did you assess that this kind of insane self-sacrifice couldn’t continue? Was it weakening the storyline? Was it dooming the show to boring repetition? Was it unrealistic to portray two brothers in their thirties loving each other the same way they had when they were twenty? Obviously they got older, so did you feel it was your responsibility to “update” their relationship? You have acknowledged in almost every interview that the show revolves around their relationship. You’ve said “we’d have to be crazy” to mess with that, but isn’t that exactly what you are doing? The entire first half of season 8 was devastating to their bond because Sam didn’t look for Dean. You put a rift between them that didn’t start to repair itself until an epic goal reunited them – the trials. Then Sam told Dean he wanted them both to live, that he would lead his brother to the light. Phew. They expressed love, compassion, or at the very least, support for each other again. Then in what was clearly a turning point in the series and in their relationship, you wrote the stunningly brilliant exchange that took place between them in “Sacrifice”.
I fell in love with this show because their relationship was a glowing beacon of unshakeable love within a family. The show filled me with hope for humanity. It inspired me and so many others to act selflessly. To face fear. To rise above impossible challenges. To reach out and use love as the cornerstone, the stone one, of courage. None of us face a literal apocalypse, but we all face our own demons. For nine years these boys have taught us how to turn and face the challenges in our lives. Jeremy, it is terrifying to watch this beacon of hope be destroyed. If feels like they are saying, “Sorry, only kidding. Life has worn us down. We aren’t the larger than life heroes you thought we were. We don’t know how to overcome all this pain anymore. These past several years and endless miles have worn Sam down until he just can’t forgive Dean for the choices he has made for him. Dean is too broken to ever risk letting Sam go. Love isn’t enough anymore. We are beaten and tired and stuck. We don’t have any more answers. You are on your own to figure out this “life” thing. God knows we haven’t done a very good job at it.” Jeremy, couldn’t you have altered their relationship without this gut-wrenching hurt? Did Sam really have to feel threatened by Dean’s friendships with Cas and Benny? Did Dean really have to start down the path of self-destruction? Did he have to leave Sam? Did Sam have to say they weren’t brothers; that he wouldn’t save Dean? I have to believe there were countless ways they could have gradually grown their relationship. Why did you choose the coldest, harshest road possible for them? Jeremy, you are destroying the people who we counted on the most to save us from ourselves; the ones who every week taught us that love would overcome absolutely everything. Our heroes. Our inspirations.
I have to wonder, though, are the brothers still teaching us something in braving this new suffering? “Purge” emphasized honesty. My experience leads me to believe that most people’s relationships in real life are not this honest. This level of raw truth first requires that a person understand their own emotions. They need to pull and tug and rip apart the jumble of emotions they feel every day and analyze the components. They need to recognize their pain as hurt, betrayal, anger or disappointment. They have to challenge their reactions to that pain. How much of it is their own fault versus the fault of the person that hurt them? Our own cognitive behavior patterns were largely established in childhood and early adulthood. The way we think, the way we react to situations is dictated by patterns. We pull away or we attack. We ignore or deny problems even exist, or we downplay their significance rather than deal with them head-on. Our successful relationships are built on a system of checks and balances, i.e. we surround ourselves with people who can successfully compensate for our blind spots. Our close friends understand what we mean rather than what we say (if we say anything at all!) and accept us with all our faults. Our families forgive the outbursts of confusion and hurt when something overwhelms our normal filters. We are then faced with a choice. Do we ignore the patterns that keep returning us to the same place or do we plunge ourselves into the terror that is the unknown? Do we risk the life we know for what might be, even if the unknown might be better? Often, we aren’t given a choice. Just as Sam and Dean have been forced into this impasse, these crossroads often grab our lives and don’t allow us an easy escape. Our relationship is broken and we are faced with divorce, or we are fired from our jobs and have to either redefine ourselves or stare down unemployment. How do we let go of what we know? Do we let our teenagers and young adults drift away because we can’t let go of the relationship we had with them as children and recognize and acknowledge them as the new adults we helped them become?
Dean is faced with this pain right now. Sam grew up. Dean has to let go of being the parent, of being the big brother, in order to recognize that he just can’t keep Sam safe from life anymore. Dean may have intellectually acknowledged that reality well before “Swan Song” but it doesn’t seem he ever emotionally let go of his role as Sam’s caregiver. Sam is long past rebelling and pulling away. He has repeatedly proven his ability to make life-changing decisions and to live with the consequences. He is forcing, demanding, a new relationship with the person who has defined him his whole life but in order to move ahead he has to let go of his judgments of Dean’s decisions. Walk a mile in my shoes before you know if you would make the same decisions I made? Is that where we are headed? How many of us have had to allow that the younger sibling, or the partner, or the friend that always screwed up and made unbelievably poor choices actually learned from their mistakes and is ready to live life differently? Can we see them for who they are now instead of who they were before? How many of us has had to forgive ourselves for catastrophic, repeated mistakes in our lives? Crowley asked, “Where do I even begin to look for forgiveness?” Cas is struggling with accepting his disastrous history of misplaced trust. How can they let all that go? How can we? Is the story now showing us how to redefine our relationships? Instead of facing monsters and demons that threaten the world, are the boys (and Cas, Crowley and even Gadreel) now showing us how to face something far more scary – the redefinition of family, of relationships, of self? Are they now showing us redemption?
It may be a long time before it is revealed why you are putting us through this merciless trek of agony. I have always believed in your story-telling ability, but if I’m honest Jeremy, I would have chosen the easier path. I don’t like this drama, this angst. I want this show to be my safe haven, my happy place, yet week after week, I am left with my jaw on the floor and my heart in pieces. Your writers have said this won’t last forever so I have to trust the show will pull us through this darkness into the light. In the process, we may all grow into better people. Like Sam and Dean, able to forgive ourselves and others. Able to embrace redemption and let go of past patterns of destructiveness. It would help immensely, though, if you could reassure the SPN family that the brothers will be back better than ever. Please don’t use the word “mature”! I am old enough that all my relationships are “mature”. That doesn’t mean they are all good! Jeremy, please, please, hurry, though. Waiting until the end of season 9 for reconciliation will be bad enough. Please don’t spill this storyline into season 10. I want the brothers back, for their sake and mine. Let the healing begin.
– Nightsky
Do you think that the brothers and the show will be in a better place when this is all over? Are we all better for this growth? How long do you think you can endure the reconstruction of their relationship? What is your limit? I have always admired Jeremy Carver’s ability to have the boys say exactly the right words to each other. What is your take on what he is piecing together here?
Screencaps courtesy of www.homeofthenutty.com
- I’m the Co-Editor-in-Chief, Social Media Manager (Twitter, Facebook and Instagram), Live Tweet Moderator, reviewer and feature writer for The Winchester Family Business. Before joining the Supernatural Family, I worked for 22 years at a global consulting firm, but after years of long hours, high pressure and rigorous demands, I quit corporate life to raise my children. After my first Supernatural convention, I was driven to share my shock and awe in a two-part essay that The WFB was brave enough to post, and my second life calling, that of being a writer, began. My first published book, Fan Phenomena: The Twilight Saga was released in late 2016. Please share in my cross-fandom excitement by following its Facebook page @FanPhenomenaTwilight and my personal Twitter account @LSAngel2. You can read about this whole miraculous transition in my chapter in Family Don’t End With Blood, published in May 2017.
Thanks so much for writing this, Nightsky! I could not agree more! Very, very well-said.
All I want is some reassurance that the writers really get what Sam & Dean are to each other & the show. And how important their bond is to carrying the show. SPN is just a run-of-the-mill fantasy show without it. Sam & Dean & their relationship is what keeps me watching week after week. Not the monsters or demons or angels.
I feel like the writers are flinging the brothers around carelessly, without really understanding the re-precussions. Like they don’t fully understand just how precious & special these characters (& their relationship) are to us.
I have been so frustrated by the whole “maturing” thing. Yeah, Sam & Dean are in their 30’s, but you don’t suddenly hit an age where loving your brother or needing your brother isn’t right anymore – especially not with these two. Who have been through more trauma than anyone can really imagine. I mean they both have done stints in hell.
Sam & Dean will never be emotionally healthy or have a normal relationship. Their history simply does not allow it.
Thanks so much for writing this, Nightsky! I could not agree more! Very, very well-said.
All I want is some reassurance that the writers really get what Sam & Dean are to each other & the show. And how important their bond is to carrying the show. SPN is just a run-of-the-mill fantasy show without it. Sam & Dean & their relationship is what keeps me watching week after week. Not the monsters or demons or angels.
I feel like the writers are flinging the brothers around carelessly, without really understanding the re-precussions. Like they don’t fully understand just how precious & special these characters (& their relationship) are to us.
I have been so frustrated by the whole “maturing” thing. Yeah, Sam & Dean are in their 30’s, but you don’t suddenly hit an age where loving your brother or needing your brother isn’t right anymore – especially not with these two. Who have been through more trauma than anyone can really imagine. I mean they both have done stints in hell.
Sam & Dean will never be emotionally healthy or have a normal relationship. Their history simply does not allow it.
I think you’ve captured the cry from the heart of many fans, Nightsky; well done. Like you, I hope the current breakdown is intended to blow apart the brothers’ established pattern of always raking up old hurts, lies, secrecy, and perceived betrayals and mistakes – a pattern causing them to make more of the same – in favor of getting them to a place where they can put those things behind them to be able to actually like and enjoy each other’s company again. The brothers will always be different and have disagreements because of that – but they don’t have to keep repeating the same ones over and over.
I live in hope. 🙂
I think you’ve captured the cry from the heart of many fans, Nightsky; well done. Like you, I hope the current breakdown is intended to blow apart the brothers’ established pattern of always raking up old hurts, lies, secrecy, and perceived betrayals and mistakes – a pattern causing them to make more of the same – in favor of getting them to a place where they can put those things behind them to be able to actually like and enjoy each other’s company again. The brothers will always be different and have disagreements because of that – but they don’t have to keep repeating the same ones over and over.
I live in hope. 🙂
And hopefully once we get through this season ,we won’t ever have to do this again as long as the show lasts. okay,maybe minor readjustments. But I do trust that carver is going somewhere with all this. That there is an endgame.
And hopefully once we get through this season ,we won’t ever have to do this again as long as the show lasts. okay,maybe minor readjustments. But I do trust that carver is going somewhere with all this. That there is an endgame.
Well Jared did assure the fans at one point this season that it will all be ok in the end. Not to worry. HA! 😕
Well Jared did assure the fans at one point this season that it will all be ok in the end. Not to worry. HA! 😕
Beautiful insight. Your comments on our own personal relationships is so right on. As fangasm wrote about reality TV versus fantasy I will admit that I am torn as to which I want from this show. Positives and negatives to both. My head and heart are so confused. God I love this show and how it makes me think about my own life and relationships. Thanks for your letter.
Beautiful insight. Your comments on our own personal relationships is so right on. As fangasm wrote about reality TV versus fantasy I will admit that I am torn as to which I want from this show. Positives and negatives to both. My head and heart are so confused. God I love this show and how it makes me think about my own life and relationships. Thanks for your letter.
While I don’t rely on television fiction to provide me with a reason to be a good person, I, too, was shaken by the final interaction between Dean and Sam in “The Purge.” I thought Sam’s comments to Dean were cruel and uncalled for.
Then I started to think. Maybe it’s the mark of Cain that Dean has burned into him that is having an effect on those around Dean. Remember Cain told Dean there were consequences to having the mark but Dean blew him off, saying he wasn’t interested in possible “side effects,” he was just interested in obtaining a new weapon to kill Abaddon. Perhaps one consequence to having the mark is that those closest to that person begin to abhor him. And also, in the last couple of episodes, Dean seems even more of a killing machine.
I’m hoping that’s where all this is leading. We still have half a season to get through. I just hope the writers don’t leave us hanging until the last half hour of the last show of the season.
While I don’t rely on television fiction to provide me with a reason to be a good person, I, too, was shaken by the final interaction between Dean and Sam in “The Purge.” I thought Sam’s comments to Dean were cruel and uncalled for.
Then I started to think. Maybe it’s the mark of Cain that Dean has burned into him that is having an effect on those around Dean. Remember Cain told Dean there were consequences to having the mark but Dean blew him off, saying he wasn’t interested in possible “side effects,” he was just interested in obtaining a new weapon to kill Abaddon. Perhaps one consequence to having the mark is that those closest to that person begin to abhor him. And also, in the last couple of episodes, Dean seems even more of a killing machine.
I’m hoping that’s where all this is leading. We still have half a season to get through. I just hope the writers don’t leave us hanging until the last half hour of the last show of the season.
This is a very well written and thought out article. I really enjoyed your questions and honest approach to WHY the show may be putting us through this. Life is hard and if a show about the supernatural can help us live in the “real world” and be better people then I believe anything is possible. This show has helped me heal from depression and battle my own demons. Now I’m ready for redemption and growth so that I can be stronger and better after going through the pain and trials of life. This show, I believe, is eloquently shaping these characters that we’ve known for 10 years into better men after going through all they’ve been through. I trust the writers and the actors to know these characters and know the places they’re taking them. Thanks for writing what so many are feeling and for giving us hope for a glorious Winchester reunion!
This is a very well written and thought out article. I really enjoyed your questions and honest approach to WHY the show may be putting us through this. Life is hard and if a show about the supernatural can help us live in the “real world” and be better people then I believe anything is possible. This show has helped me heal from depression and battle my own demons. Now I’m ready for redemption and growth so that I can be stronger and better after going through the pain and trials of life. This show, I believe, is eloquently shaping these characters that we’ve known for 10 years into better men after going through all they’ve been through. I trust the writers and the actors to know these characters and know the places they’re taking them. Thanks for writing what so many are feeling and for giving us hope for a glorious Winchester reunion!
That was a very insightful article Nightsky and yes I believe that we all need to grow and change, mature if you will in our relationships. What doesn’t ring true for me is the way that JC feels he has to tear down the brother’s relationship over and over again to build it to maturity. He could have started S9 with Sam and Dean united and alive and fighting the big bad. Dean has already shown that he is willing to follow Sam’s lead by supporting him in the trials and letting monsters go that he wanted to kill and Sam could have used these as jumping off points in talking to Dean about seeing him as more mature and capable. We could have started to see more mature brothers acting in sink and the drama could have come from fighting the bad guys.
Instead Carver decided to put Dean in a “catch 22” position that made whatever decision he made wrong in the confines of this TV show and having it play out for half the season. Now he has for all intents and purposes, in my opinion, broken the bond of love that the brother’s shared. I’ve literally had to ask myself after the last two episodes if there is even a way out of this that will make me feel what I used to feel about Sam and Dean’s relationship. My feelings about the show are starting to break down and I’m feeling manipulated by TPTB. Instead of feeling excitement for the next episode I’m feeling dread about what the next blow will be to their relationship. What was right is now wrong and what is wrong is more wrong as Dean said.
That was a very insightful article Nightsky and yes I believe that we all need to grow and change, mature if you will in our relationships. What doesn’t ring true for me is the way that JC feels he has to tear down the brother’s relationship over and over again to build it to maturity. He could have started S9 with Sam and Dean united and alive and fighting the big bad. Dean has already shown that he is willing to follow Sam’s lead by supporting him in the trials and letting monsters go that he wanted to kill and Sam could have used these as jumping off points in talking to Dean about seeing him as more mature and capable. We could have started to see more mature brothers acting in sink and the drama could have come from fighting the bad guys.
Instead Carver decided to put Dean in a “catch 22” position that made whatever decision he made wrong in the confines of this TV show and having it play out for half the season. Now he has for all intents and purposes, in my opinion, broken the bond of love that the brother’s shared. I’ve literally had to ask myself after the last two episodes if there is even a way out of this that will make me feel what I used to feel about Sam and Dean’s relationship. My feelings about the show are starting to break down and I’m feeling manipulated by TPTB. Instead of feeling excitement for the next episode I’m feeling dread about what the next blow will be to their relationship. What was right is now wrong and what is wrong is more wrong as Dean said.
So much angst and pain in SPN fandom right now! It hurts! You’ve asked some of the same questions I asked in my review at Fangasm, and added in some new (and excellent, and ultimately — possibly — hopeful) questions too. Fingers crossed.
Meanwhile, pass around the fandom hugs!
Lynn
fangasmthebook.wordpress.com
@FangasmSPN
So much angst and pain in SPN fandom right now! It hurts! You’ve asked some of the same questions I asked in my review at Fangasm, and added in some new (and excellent, and ultimately — possibly — hopeful) questions too. Fingers crossed.
Meanwhile, pass around the fandom hugs!
Lynn
fangasmthebook.wordpress.com
@FangasmSPN
@6 So-cal: I had not got the impression that Sam hates him but I know that’s how Dean will see it. (doesn’t the whole turning in to a demon thing start with self loathing anyway? Do you think he’s transforming into whatever cain and Abaddon are?)
He does seem a little more bada** than he used to be- that excellent knife throwing in Sharp Teeth, he seems a little more eager to kill too. Or maybe we are the only ones seeing this?
@6 So-cal: I had not got the impression that Sam hates him but I know that’s how Dean will see it. (doesn’t the whole turning in to a demon thing start with self loathing anyway? Do you think he’s transforming into whatever cain and Abaddon are?)
He does seem a little more bada** than he used to be- that excellent knife throwing in Sharp Teeth, he seems a little more eager to kill too. Or maybe we are the only ones seeing this?
#9 Lynn,
As I said in the comments on your website, I really liked your review. It has a lot of insight to absorb. What I didn’t say at the time (because my letter had not yet been posted) was how I felt we approached the hurt differently yet came to many of the same conclusions. Almost like two halves to the same coin. The most intriquing part to all this is how confusing these emotions are to so many people, you and me included. It is reassuring to hear other people confide that this is messing with their heads in ways more powerful than those final words of Sam’s would imply.
#9 Lynn,
As I said in the comments on your website, I really liked your review. It has a lot of insight to absorb. What I didn’t say at the time (because my letter had not yet been posted) was how I felt we approached the hurt differently yet came to many of the same conclusions. Almost like two halves to the same coin. The most intriquing part to all this is how confusing these emotions are to so many people, you and me included. It is reassuring to hear other people confide that this is messing with their heads in ways more powerful than those final words of Sam’s would imply.
#1 JJ, Thank you for the kind feedback. I agree that reassuring words would go a long way to making us feel better. Adam Glass tweeted something like “this won’t last forever.” after his episode last week then this week Eric tweeted “Gotta expel the pent up negative & start from an honest place. Catharsis is good” and “Breakdown to rebuild”. These reassure me that they will create a NEW relationship with the brothers, but I still feel the need to hear they will share an epic I’d-do-anything-for-you relationship! I think our insecurity lies in the unknown – they are rebuilding something but we don’t yet know if we will like it. Very, very unsettling.
#1 JJ, Thank you for the kind feedback. I agree that reassuring words would go a long way to making us feel better. Adam Glass tweeted something like “this won’t last forever.” after his episode last week then this week Eric tweeted “Gotta expel the pent up negative & start from an honest place. Catharsis is good” and “Breakdown to rebuild”. These reassure me that they will create a NEW relationship with the brothers, but I still feel the need to hear they will share an epic I’d-do-anything-for-you relationship! I think our insecurity lies in the unknown – they are rebuilding something but we don’t yet know if we will like it. Very, very unsettling.
#3 Thank you, Bardicvoice! It means a lot that you liked the letter! I, too, am living in hope….and I guess a little bit of trust. Jeremy, Robbie, Adam, Jenny and everyone else on the team, please give us our boys back!
#3 Thank you, Bardicvoice! It means a lot that you liked the letter! I, too, am living in hope….and I guess a little bit of trust. Jeremy, Robbie, Adam, Jenny and everyone else on the team, please give us our boys back!
Bravo Nightsky!!!!
I hope somehow TPTB get to read your article.
I’m fed up with “mature” and “reality”. I get those every single day of my real life. Don’t need it in my favourite show too.
The first 3 seasons is when I fell completely in love with this show and these brothers who loved each other in an unhealthy co-dependent way. Yes, they disagreed and teased and argued and wrestled, but we knew they were there for each other in every way they could. Season 4 brought the first “nail in the coffin” between them, and each season it seems the writers want to rip them apart just so they can have an emotional reunion. I’m sorry, but it hurts too much right now and every time I think about the last scene my tears start up again. I am truly upset and worried they will never be that way I loved them again!
The monsters, demons and angels aren’t what I watch for. It’s the brothers together against the world, hell and heaven. Mature realistic relationships abound on TV shows (see the 100 or so CSIs). Our show was unique. Our brothers lovable and inspiring! Please, let them be that way again! How I miss the easyness they used to have between them.
I hurt for Dean right now. Sam seemed so cruel and cold and for someone with abandonment issues, Dean almost seemed ready to give up everything. “There ain’t no me, if there ain’t no you!”
Sigh! But no matter what I’ll never give up on this show as long as it lasts. I love them dearly and there is no way I would abandon them, no matter what the writers do.
Jeremy wrote some of my most favourite episodes and that is what gives me some hope. Supernatural Christmas, Mystery Spot, Changing Channels and so on. He does know how to write them.
Bravo Nightsky!!!!
I hope somehow TPTB get to read your article.
I’m fed up with “mature” and “reality”. I get those every single day of my real life. Don’t need it in my favourite show too.
The first 3 seasons is when I fell completely in love with this show and these brothers who loved each other in an unhealthy co-dependent way. Yes, they disagreed and teased and argued and wrestled, but we knew they were there for each other in every way they could. Season 4 brought the first “nail in the coffin” between them, and each season it seems the writers want to rip them apart just so they can have an emotional reunion. I’m sorry, but it hurts too much right now and every time I think about the last scene my tears start up again. I am truly upset and worried they will never be that way I loved them again!
The monsters, demons and angels aren’t what I watch for. It’s the brothers together against the world, hell and heaven. Mature realistic relationships abound on TV shows (see the 100 or so CSIs). Our show was unique. Our brothers lovable and inspiring! Please, let them be that way again! How I miss the easyness they used to have between them.
I hurt for Dean right now. Sam seemed so cruel and cold and for someone with abandonment issues, Dean almost seemed ready to give up everything. “There ain’t no me, if there ain’t no you!”
Sigh! But no matter what I’ll never give up on this show as long as it lasts. I love them dearly and there is no way I would abandon them, no matter what the writers do.
Jeremy wrote some of my most favourite episodes and that is what gives me some hope. Supernatural Christmas, Mystery Spot, Changing Channels and so on. He does know how to write them.
[quote name=”lkeke35″]And hopefully once we get through this season ,we won’t ever have to do this again as long as the show lasts. okay,maybe minor readjustments. But I do trust that carver is going somewhere with all this. That there is an endgame.[/quote] May your words reach Jeremy’s ears! If I think about it, I guess I never really expected such a very long road to get to the endgame of a new brotherly relationship. I expected a 3 year arc for tablets, MoL canon, now the MoC mystery, but I never expected an “arc” to tear down and rebuild the boys. That may be why this is hitting us all so hard. I don’t know. I’m still trying to understand the impact it is having.
[quote]And hopefully once we get through this season ,we won’t ever have to do this again as long as the show lasts. okay,maybe minor readjustments. But I do trust that carver is going somewhere with all this. That there is an endgame.[/quote] May your words reach Jeremy’s ears! If I think about it, I guess I never really expected such a very long road to get to the endgame of a new brotherly relationship. I expected a 3 year arc for tablets, MoL canon, now the MoC mystery, but I never expected an “arc” to tear down and rebuild the boys. That may be why this is hitting us all so hard. I don’t know. I’m still trying to understand the impact it is having.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]Well Jared did assure the fans at one point this season that it will all be ok in the end. Not to worry. HA! :-?[/quote]
I trust Jared and Jensen’s instincts about their characters completely. The problem is that they are only about 4 or 5 episodes ahead of us. While they have conversations with the writing team, the Js don’t always know exactly where this is going either. In a way, they have to hope and trust too. Now, if Jared would tweet, “I like where this is going”…I would feel SOOO much better!
[quote]Well Jared did assure the fans at one point this season that it will all be ok in the end. Not to worry. HA! :-?[/quote]
I trust Jared and Jensen’s instincts about their characters completely. The problem is that they are only about 4 or 5 episodes ahead of us. While they have conversations with the writing team, the Js don’t always know exactly where this is going either. In a way, they have to hope and trust too. Now, if Jared would tweet, “I like where this is going”…I would feel SOOO much better!
#5 Winmomwannabe You are welcome! This episode especially seems to be making us all think a lot!
#5 Winmomwannabe You are welcome! This episode especially seems to be making us all think a lot!
#6 SoCal: I just read that theory about the MoC affecting Sam’s feelings and actions in another review as well! I find that very interesting. I plan to include it in my “Threads” article and see what everyone thinks. I can see good and bad in it.
#6 SoCal: I just read that theory about the MoC affecting Sam’s feelings and actions in another review as well! I find that very interesting. I plan to include it in my “Threads” article and see what everyone thinks. I can see good and bad in it.
#7 Misserikagannon: Thank you for your kind words! I’m glad my thoughts spoke to you and that you are coming through the back end of a hard time. Carry on always! I hope the show and the entire SPNfamily helps you on your journey!
#7 Misserikagannon: Thank you for your kind words! I’m glad my thoughts spoke to you and that you are coming through the back end of a hard time. Carry on always! I hope the show and the entire SPNfamily helps you on your journey!
#8 Prix68: I totally agree with your frustration. That is my starting point for the article …WHY? Why couldn’t we have taken the gentler, easier, more gradual road to improvement and change? Did we really have to be subjected to this “catharsis” approach? It makes for good TV and the rating being up reflect it is working, but we are taking it in the teeth in the process!
#8 Prix68: I totally agree with your frustration. That is my starting point for the article …WHY? Why couldn’t we have taken the gentler, easier, more gradual road to improvement and change? Did we really have to be subjected to this “catharsis” approach? It makes for good TV and the rating being up reflect it is working, but we are taking it in the teeth in the process!
#14 Bevie, I want the love back too. I think we all do! I want a larger than life relationship, not reality. Like you, I want very much to believe in the person who has always been my favorite SPN writer, Jeremy Carver. Please come through for us JC (sooner rather than later)!
#14 Bevie, I want the love back too. I think we all do! I want a larger than life relationship, not reality. Like you, I want very much to believe in the person who has always been my favorite SPN writer, Jeremy Carver. Please come through for us JC (sooner rather than later)!
Hi Nightsky,
Once again, beautifully written article.
I’m not liking this at all. Haven’t truly enjoyed the show since 8.01. Being left to find motivation through head-canon has been entirely unsatisfactoy. I love the brothers codependency. I don’t want maturity or reality in my television viewing. I want escapism.
The show has gotten me through some rough times. I have relied on it as much as air to breathe at certain times in the past years. As I deal with yet another round of chaos in my life, I need the boys to show me the power of love and family (God, that sounds corny! Sorry!). I want the early series relationship back. Even when they fought, their devotion to each other was tangible.
I want the larger-than-life, save-you-or-die-trying relationship the boys always had. I don’t want what Carver seems to be selling.
Maybe he’ll fix this mess by the end of the season, but the road we’re on is much too painful for me. I’ll be waiting for seasons end, to decide if I can handle watching this unfold.
At least with binge watching, it won’t be months of pain!
Hi Nightsky,
Once again, beautifully written article.
I’m not liking this at all. Haven’t truly enjoyed the show since 8.01. Being left to find motivation through head-canon has been entirely unsatisfactoy. I love the brothers codependency. I don’t want maturity or reality in my television viewing. I want escapism.
The show has gotten me through some rough times. I have relied on it as much as air to breathe at certain times in the past years. As I deal with yet another round of chaos in my life, I need the boys to show me the power of love and family (God, that sounds corny! Sorry!). I want the early series relationship back. Even when they fought, their devotion to each other was tangible.
I want the larger-than-life, save-you-or-die-trying relationship the boys always had. I don’t want what Carver seems to be selling.
Maybe he’ll fix this mess by the end of the season, but the road we’re on is much too painful for me. I’ll be waiting for seasons end, to decide if I can handle watching this unfold.
At least with binge watching, it won’t be months of pain!
Thank you Nightsky. I always love to read your thoughts. I found the latest developments in the relationship between the brothers hard to watch, but I have faith in Jeremy Carver. Despite the bleakness, I saw some things that made me hopeful. Considering that Sam’s default response to stress and conflict is running away, I appreciated that he actually stood his ground and expressed his feelings. I also liked the fact that Dean tried to initiate a difficult conversation and to listen to Sam, despite knowing that he wouldn’t like what Sam had to say.
One of the things I like about seasons 8 and 9 is the fact that both the brothers and we as viewers are being challenged – I don’t think maintaining the status quo would have done anything for the quality of the show. I believe that Sam and Dean will reconcile and grow both as individuals and as brothers. Hope springs eternal.
Thank you Nightsky. I always love to read your thoughts. I found the latest developments in the relationship between the brothers hard to watch, but I have faith in Jeremy Carver. Despite the bleakness, I saw some things that made me hopeful. Considering that Sam’s default response to stress and conflict is running away, I appreciated that he actually stood his ground and expressed his feelings. I also liked the fact that Dean tried to initiate a difficult conversation and to listen to Sam, despite knowing that he wouldn’t like what Sam had to say.
One of the things I like about seasons 8 and 9 is the fact that both the brothers and we as viewers are being challenged – I don’t think maintaining the status quo would have done anything for the quality of the show. I believe that Sam and Dean will reconcile and grow both as individuals and as brothers. Hope springs eternal.
Excellent argument Nightsky, as always!
Maybe I’m really a mean girl, but I haven’t been moved to tears this season but that doesn’t mean losing Kevin didn’t hurt. It looks like I’m the only one who didn’t think Sam was being a jerk, cold, cruel, etc. Me? I’d probably be angrier. Sam? He’s tired. [i]Everyone[/i], except sometimes Bobby, has treated Sam like the runaway teen he was. He isn’t anymore, and all he wants is for Dean to treat him with a little more respect. I get that. Jared isn’t that much older than me. And yet Dean can’t accept that fact. I didn’t say won’t. He just [i]can’t[/i]. That’s Dean’s whole world. It’s his safety net and they really have no other safety. It’s hard to make the adjustment because it means accepting your faults. It’s not an easy thing to face your demons–I bet that’s 100x harder when demons want to kill you. I was let go from my job last year and moved back in with my parents to take another position. For once my Dad and I bonded over this show and their music. Why yes Zeppelin does rule. And my Mom and I cried for and cheered on Charlie as she read “The Hobbit.” My Mom read that book to me. We lost her Mom to cancer and the wound won’t heal. Which is where Sam and Dean are now….Their wounds haven’t been healing, but this honesty is a big step. So was Sam’s decision to rejoin Dean…..And I don’t even want to think about “Taxi Driver” or “Sacrifice.” We have to sacrifice something too as we journey with them back to each other. Our reality of their world? Our suspension of our own realities that are bleeding into the sacred ground of TV bliss?
Whatever road they go down I’m in, and yeah I’m an “all in” kind of girl, until the wheels fall of the Impala. But, hey, what’s that really? We know Dean will put them right back on his Baby and keep on rolling. We should, too. We’ve trusted them this far. I’d say they earned it even if, like Dean, they have to earn it back. I’m sure they will. I’m sure he will.
In my business class, that I barely passed because unlike Sam I’m no mathlete, one of the biggest take-aways was that the bigger the risk then the bigger the reward. This is a big risk. The pay-off of their new understanding will likely be completely worth it.
If not I say REVOLT! 🙂
Excellent argument Nightsky, as always!
Maybe I’m really a mean girl, but I haven’t been moved to tears this season but that doesn’t mean losing Kevin didn’t hurt. It looks like I’m the only one who didn’t think Sam was being a jerk, cold, cruel, etc. Me? I’d probably be angrier. Sam? He’s tired. [i]Everyone[/i], except sometimes Bobby, has treated Sam like the runaway teen he was. He isn’t anymore, and all he wants is for Dean to treat him with a little more respect. I get that. Jared isn’t that much older than me. And yet Dean can’t accept that fact. I didn’t say won’t. He just [i]can’t[/i]. That’s Dean’s whole world. It’s his safety net and they really have no other safety. It’s hard to make the adjustment because it means accepting your faults. It’s not an easy thing to face your demons–I bet that’s 100x harder when demons want to kill you. I was let go from my job last year and moved back in with my parents to take another position. For once my Dad and I bonded over this show and their music. Why yes Zeppelin does rule. And my Mom and I cried for and cheered on Charlie as she read “The Hobbit.” My Mom read that book to me. We lost her Mom to cancer and the wound won’t heal. Which is where Sam and Dean are now….Their wounds haven’t been healing, but this honesty is a big step. So was Sam’s decision to rejoin Dean…..And I don’t even want to think about “Taxi Driver” or “Sacrifice.” We have to sacrifice something too as we journey with them back to each other. Our reality of their world? Our suspension of our own realities that are bleeding into the sacred ground of TV bliss?
Whatever road they go down I’m in, and yeah I’m an “all in” kind of girl, until the wheels fall of the Impala. But, hey, what’s that really? We know Dean will put them right back on his Baby and keep on rolling. We should, too. We’ve trusted them this far. I’d say they earned it even if, like Dean, they have to earn it back. I’m sure they will. I’m sure he will.
In my business class, that I barely passed because unlike Sam I’m no mathlete, one of the biggest take-aways was that the bigger the risk then the bigger the reward. This is a big risk. The pay-off of their new understanding will likely be completely worth it.
If not I say REVOLT! 🙂
Thanks for this. I’m so gutted about what JC has done to the brothers bond that I can hardly face posting and I may (although it breaks my heart to say it) be done with the show. It’s supposed to be my escape, but after the last ep I felt really low. Life is too short to let a tv show encroach into your real life in such a negative way.
Like you I simply cannot fathom what JC hopes to achieve by going down this route. Does he want us to hate Sam? Does he want us to think that all the sacrifices and beautiful moments between the bros over the first 7 seasons either meant nothing or were wrong or were selfishly motivated rather than driven by love and heroism? Does he want us to see Dean as pathetically needy? If so he is going the right way about it.
This just isn’t fun anymore. And even if I like where it ends up I can’t face weeks more of this depressing crap. No matter how great the destination, the journey has to be fun too.
I’ve lost all faith in JC. It started with the ludicrous, ooc decision to have Sam not look for Dean and this has sealed it.
It breaks my heart that the show that has given me so much pleasure for the last 9 years may be lost to me. Feeling very sad at the moment.
Thanks for this. I’m so gutted about what JC has done to the brothers bond that I can hardly face posting and I may (although it breaks my heart to say it) be done with the show. It’s supposed to be my escape, but after the last ep I felt really low. Life is too short to let a tv show encroach into your real life in such a negative way.
Like you I simply cannot fathom what JC hopes to achieve by going down this route. Does he want us to hate Sam? Does he want us to think that all the sacrifices and beautiful moments between the bros over the first 7 seasons either meant nothing or were wrong or were selfishly motivated rather than driven by love and heroism? Does he want us to see Dean as pathetically needy? If so he is going the right way about it.
This just isn’t fun anymore. And even if I like where it ends up I can’t face weeks more of this depressing crap. No matter how great the destination, the journey has to be fun too.
I’ve lost all faith in JC. It started with the ludicrous, ooc decision to have Sam not look for Dean and this has sealed it.
It breaks my heart that the show that has given me so much pleasure for the last 9 years may be lost to me. Feeling very sad at the moment.
#24 Hi Puck
I’m a mean girl too. I would have been yelling my head off at Dean, not just giving him some home truths. I love Dean but he can’t keep treating Sam like this.
I just wish both boys had more space and more people to talk to about their issues. It’s no wonder they don’t communicate very well when they can never escape each other and go rant at their friends until they’ve calmed down and seen reason. Or had their Mum say, “well dear, I can see why you’re upset but have you considered ‘x'”? That’s why I want Jody to show up and give em both a good talking to 😀
#24 Hi Puck
I’m a mean girl too. I would have been yelling my head off at Dean, not just giving him some home truths. I love Dean but he can’t keep treating Sam like this.
I just wish both boys had more space and more people to talk to about their issues. It’s no wonder they don’t communicate very well when they can never escape each other and go rant at their friends until they’ve calmed down and seen reason. Or had their Mum say, “well dear, I can see why you’re upset but have you considered ‘x'”? That’s why I want Jody to show up and give em both a good talking to 😀
[quote name=”nightsky”]#8 Prix68: I totally agree with your frustration. That is my starting point for the article …WHY? Why couldn’t we have taken the gentler, easier, more gradual road to improvement and change? Did we really have to be subjected to this “catharsis” approach? It makes for good TV and the rating being up reflect it is working, but we are taking it in the teeth in the process![/quote]
Sorry Nightsky, but you cannot conclude that our good ratings mean fans are happy with where the show us going. This appalling destruction of the boys bond started with the dreadful conversation at the end of Sharp Teeth. That ep got great ratings but that was due to the State of the Union. And this week we are down to a relatively low, for this season (although still good by CW standards), 1.0 in the demo. Next week we’ll see what the impact of this weeks debacle will be.
The relationship between storylines popularity, or lack of, and ratings can only be judged over the long term. However so far there is zero evidence from the ratings that fans like this stupid, depressing and no fun to watch direction JC is taking the show.
The dislike of this approach to the brothers bond is as universal a view as I’ve seen in this fandom for a very long time. Consensus is a rare thing among SPN fans but this is the closest I’ve seen to it. If the online fandom is even remotest representative of the wider fandom then I don’t think this direction will be a ratings winner.
[quote]#8 Prix68: I totally agree with your frustration. That is my starting point for the article …WHY? Why couldn’t we have taken the gentler, easier, more gradual road to improvement and change? Did we really have to be subjected to this “catharsis” approach? It makes for good TV and the rating being up reflect it is working, but we are taking it in the teeth in the process![/quote]
Sorry Nightsky, but you cannot conclude that our good ratings mean fans are happy with where the show us going. This appalling destruction of the boys bond started with the dreadful conversation at the end of Sharp Teeth. That ep got great ratings but that was due to the State of the Union. And this week we are down to a relatively low, for this season (although still good by CW standards), 1.0 in the demo. Next week we’ll see what the impact of this weeks debacle will be.
The relationship between storylines popularity, or lack of, and ratings can only be judged over the long term. However so far there is zero evidence from the ratings that fans like this stupid, depressing and no fun to watch direction JC is taking the show.
The dislike of this approach to the brothers bond is as universal a view as I’ve seen in this fandom for a very long time. Consensus is a rare thing among SPN fans but this is the closest I’ve seen to it. If the online fandom is even remotest representative of the wider fandom then I don’t think this direction will be a ratings winner.
Puck and Manzanita, I agree! I would have been furious at Dean if it were me and I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have gotten into Dean’s car.
I think that part of the reason why some viewers feel that Sam was to harsh was because we saw way too little of the pain that led to the anger. Sam came across as unsympathetic because he is underwritten. What else is new.
Puck and Manzanita, I agree! I would have been furious at Dean if it were me and I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have gotten into Dean’s car.
I think that part of the reason why some viewers feel that Sam was to harsh was because we saw way too little of the pain that led to the anger. Sam came across as unsympathetic because he is underwritten. What else is new.
After two seasons of watching the emotional drama trauma between the brothers as they work their way to Carver’s idea of manhood (and I shudder to think what that might be). I am one character away from dropping the show entirely (and I am a pioneer Pilot live watcher — never missed an episode).
The only reason I will finish this season out is because I started it, am looking forward to the Ghostfacers, am interested to see how the Crowley/Abaddon chess moves go (though I have been tired of Crowley for a few seasons now, I like the game he is playing), I am really interested in seeing Cain show up again (if he hasn’t gone the way of the alpha vamp).
There is something very messed up when I am watching the show out of habit and only to see support characters that I don’t even have a real interest in. I don’t give a shake of the proverbial tail what Sam and Dean do, their role in the season, or how they end up once they reach emotional maturity.
After two seasons of watching the emotional drama trauma between the brothers as they work their way to Carver’s idea of manhood (and I shudder to think what that might be). I am one character away from dropping the show entirely (and I am a pioneer Pilot live watcher — never missed an episode).
The only reason I will finish this season out is because I started it, am looking forward to the Ghostfacers, am interested to see how the Crowley/Abaddon chess moves go (though I have been tired of Crowley for a few seasons now, I like the game he is playing), I am really interested in seeing Cain show up again (if he hasn’t gone the way of the alpha vamp).
There is something very messed up when I am watching the show out of habit and only to see support characters that I don’t even have a real interest in. I don’t give a shake of the proverbial tail what Sam and Dean do, their role in the season, or how they end up once they reach emotional maturity.
Hi Nightsky, I am so with you on the first part of your article. Truth be told I haven’t been crazy about any season after S5. S6 was ok. S7 was difficult. So much pain, and also the disconnect between the brothers. S8 was the first season I didn’t purchase (and it was 9.99 on amazon!). I did enjoy the latter part but the first half soured me. S9 so far another painful one. Enough already.
As for the latter part of the article I don’t care that much about the new maturity we supposedly are heading for. I want the brothers back to basics. Early on, dysfunction and all, I felt the love. Even when things were rocky I knew they would be drawn together again. I love a certain amount of angst but how long can they drag this out? How many seasons can they screw with what we all fell in love with?? I am a masochist so I will continue watching until the series finale! Despite some moments of brilliance, it is just not the same show anymore. I love the characters Sam and Dean and the actors Jared and Jensen so much that I will not ever jump ship but the show is more painful to watch lately. Not nearly as fun and heartwarming (in it’s gruff way) as it used to be. Don’t mind me I am just missing the “old” days. 🙂 Thank you for the lovely article!
Hi Nightsky, I am so with you on the first part of your article. Truth be told I haven’t been crazy about any season after S5. S6 was ok. S7 was difficult. So much pain, and also the disconnect between the brothers. S8 was the first season I didn’t purchase (and it was 9.99 on amazon!). I did enjoy the latter part but the first half soured me. S9 so far another painful one. Enough already.
As for the latter part of the article I don’t care that much about the new maturity we supposedly are heading for. I want the brothers back to basics. Early on, dysfunction and all, I felt the love. Even when things were rocky I knew they would be drawn together again. I love a certain amount of angst but how long can they drag this out? How many seasons can they screw with what we all fell in love with?? I am a masochist so I will continue watching until the series finale! Despite some moments of brilliance, it is just not the same show anymore. I love the characters Sam and Dean and the actors Jared and Jensen so much that I will not ever jump ship but the show is more painful to watch lately. Not nearly as fun and heartwarming (in it’s gruff way) as it used to be. Don’t mind me I am just missing the “old” days. 🙂 Thank you for the lovely article!
@Nightsky
While I stil LOVE this piece, I’m not sure anymore how much much we should be holding on to.
Eric Charmelo, who co-wrote “The Purge,” re-tweeted a tweet earlier today that said “See you on the other side of co-dependecy!”
I think that is my main issue with this whole thing. The writers seem to have this desire to make us believe that Sam & Dean and their relationship & codependency is a bad thing. And it’s not. It’s no that cut & dry.
And it really hurts & is insulting that the writers are so “whatever!” about it.
SPN is still on the air 9 years later BECAUSE of Sam & Dean & their relationship. It is the brothers that gives the show the emotional weight & makes me care.
I’m just so, so, so disheartened.
@Nightsky
While I stil LOVE this piece, I’m not sure anymore how much much we should be holding on to.
Eric Charmelo, who co-wrote “The Purge,” re-tweeted a tweet earlier today that said “See you on the other side of co-dependecy!”
I think that is my main issue with this whole thing. The writers seem to have this desire to make us believe that Sam & Dean and their relationship & codependency is a bad thing. And it’s not. It’s no that cut & dry.
And it really hurts & is insulting that the writers are so “whatever!” about it.
SPN is still on the air 9 years later BECAUSE of Sam & Dean & their relationship. It is the brothers that gives the show the emotional weight & makes me care.
I’m just so, so, so disheartened.
Thank you Nightsky this was a lovely letter and I understand the angst of the fans for this current storyline. I am in it for the ride. There are some chapters of this book that I don’t understand but I trust that JC has a plan that will bring all the parts together. I don’t see the J’s sticking with a project that would assassinate their characters. They have both stated (especially Jensen) that they are very protective of their characters. As long as they have faith in the story so will I. Sam and Dean still care very much for each other and it is evident in every episode. Since the beginning of the series there has been conflict. This is for me is just another series of lessons that these two brothers have to process just like it would be for anyone who lives 24/7 in the same space, not to mention all the rest of the crap they have to deal with. I am nervous, excited and can’t wait to see how this all plays out.
Thank you Nightsky this was a lovely letter and I understand the angst of the fans for this current storyline. I am in it for the ride. There are some chapters of this book that I don’t understand but I trust that JC has a plan that will bring all the parts together. I don’t see the J’s sticking with a project that would assassinate their characters. They have both stated (especially Jensen) that they are very protective of their characters. As long as they have faith in the story so will I. Sam and Dean still care very much for each other and it is evident in every episode. Since the beginning of the series there has been conflict. This is for me is just another series of lessons that these two brothers have to process just like it would be for anyone who lives 24/7 in the same space, not to mention all the rest of the crap they have to deal with. I am nervous, excited and can’t wait to see how this all plays out.
Man! That was so very painful but so very needed. It finally got some key words out into the area that they have been sparing in and two brothers, to talk about huge problems, namely selfishness. It’s no wonder that Sam thinks that Dean has saved him for his own good; after all Dean keep insisting on the natural order, that what is dead should be dead, but that none of his little maxims apply to Sam. Dean has no rules for saving Sam. It isn’t a secret and we all know why.
There was a look of complete confusion on Dean’s face when Sam call’s him out on it. “What are you talking about” was delivered with shock and a twinge of horror at the idea and the prospect that Sam was about to explain it to him. It has NEVER crossed his mind that he was doing for anyone else except Sam.
Save Sam.
Period.
It’s encoded in his DNA.
Not gonna change.
I get Sam’s anger. I really do. I have been in his shoes before with an older sibling and I get it. I think he has finally said some things that need to get out on the table, but there was one line that I think he didn’t need to say, even if it was true because he has to know that Dean is not taking anything very well. Can’t he see he is drinking and not sleeping again? Why would he add to that?
The most painful line of all was Sam’s accusation that Dean is only too willing to sacrifice when he doesn’t have to be the one being hurt. As my sister pointed out, didn’t we just watch and episode about how Dean gave up his one shot at a normal life because of his obligation for Sam? Didn’t Dean go to hell to save Sam? Didn’t Dean put on Death’s ring to try to earn Sam’s soul back? It seemed below the belt, and yet I can see what Sam is saying. All the times he saved Sam, there were consequences that he didn’t consider, some person who got hurt in the process(Dean doesn’t think things all the way through). For starters, Sam was the one “hurt” but the demon deal. He had to watch Dean get dragged to hell and then be left alone. That was unfair to Sam, according to Sam. Sam told Dean when he was in the mental hospital having the final meltdown from his missing wall “you knew this would happen when you put my soul back in.” Sam is referring to the collateral that his life has cost, the people, like Kevin, who have been killed. I think.
Sam seems to just want all of it to stop. He seems broken to be, tired and sad. He’s alone as much as Dean is, only he already found what he wanted with Amelia. He could find it again, and he knows it. He also knows that Dean doesn’t, can’t and won’t. Sam calls Dean out on it and even though for a moment Dean is truly confused, when Sam uses the word “selfish” Dean just scoffs and gets up from the table. That is the only word Dean would never associate with; He knows he is a lot of things, but selfish he has never been. Yet, as Dean is reeling from the word, or even thought that anyone of his actions for his little brother having been done for himself, he realizes that he doesn’t have a comeback, or anything to say to prove otherwise.
Even if it isn’t true, what can he show in his defense that doesn’t look this way?
So what does Dean do? He goes back to the one argument that has made his world make sense; family. It is the word that proves he isn’t selfish. When you do things for family, you’re doing the right thing. And you’d do them again. Family means doing whatever it takes. Family is always having your back. Family is forgiving and moving on because if you don’t have family, what do you have? It’s not so much that Dean can’t handle being alone, it’s that Dean can’t live without family. Drill into him. He recites it and believes it. It’s the glue that holds him together. He did what he did for family. How is family that selfish?
Need we mention that Sam’s definition of family isnt even in the same solar system as Dean’s? We’ve known this for some time and yet we have always trusted (minus the soulless Sam drama) that he has always had Dean’s back. That he would always be there for his older brother “I’d do anything for my big brother.” ( I believe this still but man! The truth hurts)
Man! That was so very painful but so very needed. It finally got some key words out into the area that they have been sparing in and two brothers, to talk about huge problems, namely selfishness. It’s no wonder that Sam thinks that Dean has saved him for his own good; after all Dean keep insisting on the natural order, that what is dead should be dead, but that none of his little maxims apply to Sam. Dean has no rules for saving Sam. It isn’t a secret and we all know why.
There was a look of complete confusion on Dean’s face when Sam call’s him out on it. “What are you talking about” was delivered with shock and a twinge of horror at the idea and the prospect that Sam was about to explain it to him. It has NEVER crossed his mind that he was doing for anyone else except Sam.
Save Sam.
Period.
It’s encoded in his DNA.
Not gonna change.
I get Sam’s anger. I really do. I have been in his shoes before with an older sibling and I get it. I think he has finally said some things that need to get out on the table, but there was one line that I think he didn’t need to say, even if it was true because he has to know that Dean is not taking anything very well. Can’t he see he is drinking and not sleeping again? Why would he add to that?
The most painful line of all was Sam’s accusation that Dean is only too willing to sacrifice when he doesn’t have to be the one being hurt. As my sister pointed out, didn’t we just watch and episode about how Dean gave up his one shot at a normal life because of his obligation for Sam? Didn’t Dean go to hell to save Sam? Didn’t Dean put on Death’s ring to try to earn Sam’s soul back? It seemed below the belt, and yet I can see what Sam is saying. All the times he saved Sam, there were consequences that he didn’t consider, some person who got hurt in the process(Dean doesn’t think things all the way through). For starters, Sam was the one “hurt” but the demon deal. He had to watch Dean get dragged to hell and then be left alone. That was unfair to Sam, according to Sam. Sam told Dean when he was in the mental hospital having the final meltdown from his missing wall “you knew this would happen when you put my soul back in.” Sam is referring to the collateral that his life has cost, the people, like Kevin, who have been killed. I think.
Sam seems to just want all of it to stop. He seems broken to be, tired and sad. He’s alone as much as Dean is, only he already found what he wanted with Amelia. He could find it again, and he knows it. He also knows that Dean doesn’t, can’t and won’t. Sam calls Dean out on it and even though for a moment Dean is truly confused, when Sam uses the word “selfish” Dean just scoffs and gets up from the table. That is the only word Dean would never associate with; He knows he is a lot of things, but selfish he has never been. Yet, as Dean is reeling from the word, or even thought that anyone of his actions for his little brother having been done for himself, he realizes that he doesn’t have a comeback, or anything to say to prove otherwise.
Even if it isn’t true, what can he show in his defense that doesn’t look this way?
So what does Dean do? He goes back to the one argument that has made his world make sense; family. It is the word that proves he isn’t selfish. When you do things for family, you’re doing the right thing. And you’d do them again. Family means doing whatever it takes. Family is always having your back. Family is forgiving and moving on because if you don’t have family, what do you have? It’s not so much that Dean can’t handle being alone, it’s that Dean can’t live without family. Drill into him. He recites it and believes it. It’s the glue that holds him together. He did what he did for family. How is family that selfish?
Need we mention that Sam’s definition of family isnt even in the same solar system as Dean’s? We’ve known this for some time and yet we have always trusted (minus the soulless Sam drama) that he has always had Dean’s back. That he would always be there for his older brother “I’d do anything for my big brother.” ( I believe this still but man! The truth hurts)
To follow up:
Sam’s confession that he wouldn’t save Dean isn’t a shock to us. He didn’t even try to look for Dean when he vanished. I know Sam thought he was dead, but he’s a Winchester and knows better that when you “vanish” out of thin air, there is more to the picture than just death. Sam was going to move on, as they promised. But Bobby pointed out, that was a non-agreement.
Same circumstances, Sam wouldn’t save him.
I was puzzled at first the crushing look on Dean’s face as Sam walked away. Was it me or did we see tears in his eyes? Someone might as well have just told him Sam was dead. We’d see the same look. But since we know this about Sam, so clearly, why is Dean so devastated stunned and hurt?
Because, he only heard one thing “I don’t have your back. (you can’t trust family) There are some things I wouldn’t do for you (Family isn’t the be all end all thing for me), and I will not be there for you.”
Dean was flashing back to Soulless Sam betraying him, not having his back, letting him get turned into a vamp, he was remembering how Sam lied to him about not having a soul, and realizing Sam is now like that soulless monster he feared.. He was thinking about Sam and the demon blood, he was remembering that Sam wasn’t the one who helped him out of purgatory, that while he gave up everything for Sam and Sam won’t do the same for him (which coincidentally is the very definition that Dean has for proving “you’re family”). Every feeling of betrayal that Sam has ever caused in Dean came surging back up –
Even when Dean was doing his “suicidal” monster hunts (pick a season) he has never lost his desire to be “in the fight” and be there for Sammy. Hell, it was the reason he walked away from his one chance at normal. The one thing that has driven him has been Sam. I believe that we have always seen Dean want to remain alive for Sam. Not for any other reason, but Sam. The season where we see Dean “dead inside” was season five, where we get a taste of how much Sam’s actions affected him. Dean died inside because his brother had abandoned him for a demon, because his brother chose a demon over family. Here again, is that pesky little “family” thing.
If he doesn’t have Sam believing in him, or “putting family first” – what reason does he have to live? And with the Mark of Cain burning on his arm, he doesn’t have Sam to have his back. Sam won’t be there to save him from what he has to do. The thought of Sam, his brother, his only family saying that he doesn’t want to be family, is too much for Dean to handle.
The last time things are bad and the debate over family was hashed out, Dean threw a way his amulet.
That look on Dean’s face was that of a broken (and still grieving man) realizing that he is alone. So in the end, I guess that I am saying that this isn’t a new step, this is this the same problem from season five just amplified, without the guilt from Sam for having opened the cage and with Dean being the guilty one here. If they worked past that season, they can do it here. I hope.
Oh, hell I don’t know honestly. Because Sam has to be the one to be ok with Dean. Right now, it’s all waiting on Sam. Dean has been taken out for the count with all his honesty and is paralyzed – he is drinking again … bad.
Anyway, that is my best attempt at understanding what is happening to my heart as I watch it break to a million pieces over these two very unreal, made up characters… well, I keep telling myself that in the hopes that I will believe it…someday.
To follow up:
Sam’s confession that he wouldn’t save Dean isn’t a shock to us. He didn’t even try to look for Dean when he vanished. I know Sam thought he was dead, but he’s a Winchester and knows better that when you “vanish” out of thin air, there is more to the picture than just death. Sam was going to move on, as they promised. But Bobby pointed out, that was a non-agreement.
Same circumstances, Sam wouldn’t save him.
I was puzzled at first the crushing look on Dean’s face as Sam walked away. Was it me or did we see tears in his eyes? Someone might as well have just told him Sam was dead. We’d see the same look. But since we know this about Sam, so clearly, why is Dean so devastated stunned and hurt?
Because, he only heard one thing “I don’t have your back. (you can’t trust family) There are some things I wouldn’t do for you (Family isn’t the be all end all thing for me), and I will not be there for you.”
Dean was flashing back to Soulless Sam betraying him, not having his back, letting him get turned into a vamp, he was remembering how Sam lied to him about not having a soul, and realizing Sam is now like that soulless monster he feared.. He was thinking about Sam and the demon blood, he was remembering that Sam wasn’t the one who helped him out of purgatory, that while he gave up everything for Sam and Sam won’t do the same for him (which coincidentally is the very definition that Dean has for proving “you’re family”). Every feeling of betrayal that Sam has ever caused in Dean came surging back up –
Even when Dean was doing his “suicidal” monster hunts (pick a season) he has never lost his desire to be “in the fight” and be there for Sammy. Hell, it was the reason he walked away from his one chance at normal. The one thing that has driven him has been Sam. I believe that we have always seen Dean want to remain alive for Sam. Not for any other reason, but Sam. The season where we see Dean “dead inside” was season five, where we get a taste of how much Sam’s actions affected him. Dean died inside because his brother had abandoned him for a demon, because his brother chose a demon over family. Here again, is that pesky little “family” thing.
If he doesn’t have Sam believing in him, or “putting family first” – what reason does he have to live? And with the Mark of Cain burning on his arm, he doesn’t have Sam to have his back. Sam won’t be there to save him from what he has to do. The thought of Sam, his brother, his only family saying that he doesn’t want to be family, is too much for Dean to handle.
The last time things are bad and the debate over family was hashed out, Dean threw a way his amulet.
That look on Dean’s face was that of a broken (and still grieving man) realizing that he is alone. So in the end, I guess that I am saying that this isn’t a new step, this is this the same problem from season five just amplified, without the guilt from Sam for having opened the cage and with Dean being the guilty one here. If they worked past that season, they can do it here. I hope.
Oh, hell I don’t know honestly. Because Sam has to be the one to be ok with Dean. Right now, it’s all waiting on Sam. Dean has been taken out for the count with all his honesty and is paralyzed – he is drinking again … bad.
Anyway, that is my best attempt at understanding what is happening to my heart as I watch it break to a million pieces over these two very unreal, made up characters… well, I keep telling myself that in the hopes that I will believe it…someday.
@ Puck #24, Manzanita Crow #26 & JuliaG #28
Adding my voice to yours that I didn’t see Sam at all being harsh or cruel or selfish. He was being honest and open even though you could it was tearing him apart to do so. What is so wrong with Sam wanting at least some control over his own life, his own body and his own mind, all of which were taken away from him by Dean’s actions in 9×01? Is that so much to ask?? Sam was 100% correct when he said Dean didn’t do it for Sam, Dean did it for Dean and yeah that hurt like hell both for Sam to say it and for Dean to hear it, but it’s been needed to be said for a very long time and, more importantly, Dean has needed to hear it for a very long.
Sam said much the same thing way back in 3×01 when he told Dean that selling his soul because he didn’t want to live with Sam dead was selfish and Dean agreed with him.
His line about believing what he did was right and that he would do it again has me truly terrified for Sam. What lengths will Dean go to next, what lines will he cross and who will end up paying the price the next time Dean decides that he can’t or won’t or doesn’t want to live without Sam?? Kevin paid with his life, Sam is hurting and suffering right now and probably will for a very long time, due to his memories of everything that has happened to him against his will and out of his control this season.
@ Puck #24, Manzanita Crow #26 & JuliaG #28
Adding my voice to yours that I didn’t see Sam at all being harsh or cruel or selfish. He was being honest and open even though you could it was tearing him apart to do so. What is so wrong with Sam wanting at least some control over his own life, his own body and his own mind, all of which were taken away from him by Dean’s actions in 9×01? Is that so much to ask?? Sam was 100% correct when he said Dean didn’t do it for Sam, Dean did it for Dean and yeah that hurt like hell both for Sam to say it and for Dean to hear it, but it’s been needed to be said for a very long time and, more importantly, Dean has needed to hear it for a very long.
Sam said much the same thing way back in 3×01 when he told Dean that selling his soul because he didn’t want to live with Sam dead was selfish and Dean agreed with him.
His line about believing what he did was right and that he would do it again has me truly terrified for Sam. What lengths will Dean go to next, what lines will he cross and who will end up paying the price the next time Dean decides that he can’t or won’t or doesn’t want to live without Sam?? Kevin paid with his life, Sam is hurting and suffering right now and probably will for a very long time, due to his memories of everything that has happened to him against his will and out of his control this season.
It depends what you want from the brothers as to whether you see what Sam said has ‘harsh’ it seems people have got so wrapped up in what he said that why he said it has got lost.
I do not want a relationship where Dean gets to do what he wants in the name of ‘love’ to Sam . I find it disturbing that Sam has been demonized more for what he said than Dean for the original act that has caused so much pain . Sam must have some say over his own autonomy , what is done to his own body otherwise what would his worth be in a co-dependent relationship that allows full autonomy to Dean over eveything.
It depends what you want from the brothers as to whether you see what Sam said has ‘harsh’ it seems people have got so wrapped up in what he said that why he said it has got lost.
I do not want a relationship where Dean gets to do what he wants in the name of ‘love’ to Sam . I find it disturbing that Sam has been demonized more for what he said than Dean for the original act that has caused so much pain . Sam must have some say over his own autonomy , what is done to his own body otherwise what would his worth be in a co-dependent relationship that allows full autonomy to Dean over eveything.
I just keep remembering all the scenes I love with the brothers in such perfect sync with each other, no matter what else was going on. The Usual Suspects, when they were locked in separate rooms; but doing the same thing at the same time. Dean’s note, that said nothing; yet said everything. Jump the Shark, when they didn’t say a word; but threw out rock, paper, scissors. When they talked at the same time. Funky town, etc. Hell, the pilot! Sam making a fake call to the cops, knowing that Dean would escape. They hadn’t been together for years; but it was still natural for them. It’s one of the main reasons I love them
I just keep remembering all the scenes I love with the brothers in such perfect sync with each other, no matter what else was going on. The Usual Suspects, when they were locked in separate rooms; but doing the same thing at the same time. Dean’s note, that said nothing; yet said everything. Jump the Shark, when they didn’t say a word; but threw out rock, paper, scissors. When they talked at the same time. Funky town, etc. Hell, the pilot! Sam making a fake call to the cops, knowing that Dean would escape. They hadn’t been together for years; but it was still natural for them. It’s one of the main reasons I love them
I do not agree with some points
[quote]The entire first half of season 8 was devastating to their bond because Sam didn’t look for Dean. [/quote]For me the entire season 8 was bad as they did not explain or show Sam’s mentality after he thought Dean had died.Then like putting salt on wounds they gave a half assed attempt to explain it.[quote]These past several years and endless miles have worn Sam down until he just can’t forgive Dean for the choices he has made for him.[/quote]Forgiveness takes time.It has been just two episodes ….If there is no patience to wait for forgiveness maybe the relationship is not worth.[quote]This level of raw truth first requires that a person understand their own emotions.[/quote]But this time it was necessary as Dean was not listening.He blames everything on family.Sam I think takes blame for things he has done and for his part in it.Dean however just goes by standard line of “family” as if that should make Sam happy.If Sam has to get Dean to hear about his views it has to be like this as otherwise it is always family which makes Dean do this.[quote]Dean has to let go of being the parent, of being the big brother, in order to recognize that he just can’t keep Sam safe from life anymore.[/quote]Dean does not have to let go being the big brother or a parent..He just has to learn to respect Sam’s wishes and more importantly in this case not do something to Sam which has earlier been done by Azazel,Meg.I think he can be a parent and big brother and still do this.In the cabin Death was more honorable than Dean.
I do not agree with some points
[quote]The entire first half of season 8 was devastating to their bond because Sam didn’t look for Dean. [/quote]For me the entire season 8 was bad as they did not explain or show Sam’s mentality after he thought Dean had died.Then like putting salt on wounds they gave a half assed attempt to explain it.[quote]These past several years and endless miles have worn Sam down until he just can’t forgive Dean for the choices he has made for him.[/quote]Forgiveness takes time.It has been just two episodes ….If there is no patience to wait for forgiveness maybe the relationship is not worth.[quote]This level of raw truth first requires that a person understand their own emotions.[/quote]But this time it was necessary as Dean was not listening.He blames everything on family.Sam I think takes blame for things he has done and for his part in it.Dean however just goes by standard line of “family” as if that should make Sam happy.If Sam has to get Dean to hear about his views it has to be like this as otherwise it is always family which makes Dean do this.[quote]Dean has to let go of being the parent, of being the big brother, in order to recognize that he just can’t keep Sam safe from life anymore.[/quote]Dean does not have to let go being the big brother or a parent..He just has to learn to respect Sam’s wishes and more importantly in this case not do something to Sam which has earlier been done by Azazel,Meg.I think he can be a parent and big brother and still do this.In the cabin Death was more honorable than Dean.
One of the things that baffles me is that the best way to make the brothers still have a close relationship but not a traumatically unhealthy one is to open up their lives to other people. But this series has taken away a lot of their other people so their world has shrunk, not expanded. I thought series 8’s emphasis on Charlie, Kevin, Garth et al was about that opening up so I don’t know where they’re going with closing back down again.
One other thing – there are so many inconsistencies in the writing of this show but one amazing consistency is that regardless of who is doing the writing, Sam never seems to criticize Dean in terms of ‘that one thing you did was wrong’, it’s always ‘Dean, you’re so controlling/annoying/you always behave like this’. No wonder Dean doesn’t understand what, specifically, Sam objects to – because the writers never let Sam tell him.
Equally the show always shows us that Dean doesn’t have a good opinion of himself. So Sam’s accusations that ‘You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero’ just can’t ring true with people who watch this show every week. Carver’s had this thread of Sam feeling insecure beside Dean for a while now, but however often he tells us that, it’s not what we see. Carver seems to delight in hinting – I wish he would realise that he needs to do some serious showing instead.
One of the things that baffles me is that the best way to make the brothers still have a close relationship but not a traumatically unhealthy one is to open up their lives to other people. But this series has taken away a lot of their other people so their world has shrunk, not expanded. I thought series 8’s emphasis on Charlie, Kevin, Garth et al was about that opening up so I don’t know where they’re going with closing back down again.
One other thing – there are so many inconsistencies in the writing of this show but one amazing consistency is that regardless of who is doing the writing, Sam never seems to criticize Dean in terms of ‘that one thing you did was wrong’, it’s always ‘Dean, you’re so controlling/annoying/you always behave like this’. No wonder Dean doesn’t understand what, specifically, Sam objects to – because the writers never let Sam tell him.
Equally the show always shows us that Dean doesn’t have a good opinion of himself. So Sam’s accusations that ‘You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero’ just can’t ring true with people who watch this show every week. Carver’s had this thread of Sam feeling insecure beside Dean for a while now, but however often he tells us that, it’s not what we see. Carver seems to delight in hinting – I wish he would realise that he needs to do some serious showing instead.
Oh Nightsky, what you said!!!! I am also concerned that mature won’t necessarily mean better to to those of us who fell in love with two tragically codependent brothers. I will hold on to my faith in Jeremy Carver but I’m nervous.
This quote really hit me: “He is forcing, demanding, a new relationship with the person who has defined him his whole life but in order to move ahead he has to let go of his judgments of Dean’s decisions. Walk a mile in my shoes before you know if you would make the same decisions I made? Is that where we are headed? “
I don’t want Sam to make a bad decision to save Dean. I just want him to be faced with 2 bad options in order to do so. Then to make everything end happily (for me) Team Free Will brainstorms a 3rd solution resulting in pie & unicorns for all 🙂
Oh Nightsky, what you said!!!! I am also concerned that mature won’t necessarily mean better to to those of us who fell in love with two tragically codependent brothers. I will hold on to my faith in Jeremy Carver but I’m nervous.
This quote really hit me: “He is forcing, demanding, a new relationship with the person who has defined him his whole life but in order to move ahead he has to let go of his judgments of Dean’s decisions. Walk a mile in my shoes before you know if you would make the same decisions I made? Is that where we are headed? “
I don’t want Sam to make a bad decision to save Dean. I just want him to be faced with 2 bad options in order to do so. Then to make everything end happily (for me) Team Free Will brainstorms a 3rd solution resulting in pie & unicorns for all 🙂
For me personally, Sam saving Dean under any circumstances won’t solve anything for me between the brothers now. Oddly, TNT is showing “Lazarus Rising” today and I just watched Bobby give Dean “the don’t be a whiny brat, you need to save your brother cause you don’t turn your back on family no matter what they do” speech. Too bad Sam missed out on this family speech or he might have some insight into how his brother feels.
For me personally, Sam saving Dean under any circumstances won’t solve anything for me between the brothers now. Oddly, TNT is showing “Lazarus Rising” today and I just watched Bobby give Dean “the don’t be a whiny brat, you need to save your brother cause you don’t turn your back on family no matter what they do” speech. Too bad Sam missed out on this family speech or he might have some insight into how his brother feels.
St50: I feel your pain! I wish they weren’t messing with the one thing that I love so very much in this show. I wasn’t exaggerating when I wrote that this terrifies me. It’s ironic you should mention binge watching. We just had a guest article about whether people preferred binge or live viewing. After Purge, I thought to myself, “I wouldn’t be going through this anxiety if I could get through this darn separation stuff in just 3-4 hours by hitting play over and over on the DVR!” I don’t blame you for taking that route. I am sorry that your life is hitting such a rough patch again and I will miss talking with you for the next several episodes, but we all have to do what we can to save ourselves unnecessary heartache. Here’s hoping the other side is the best bromance ever!
St50: I feel your pain! I wish they weren’t messing with the one thing that I love so very much in this show. I wasn’t exaggerating when I wrote that this terrifies me. It’s ironic you should mention binge watching. We just had a guest article about whether people preferred binge or live viewing. After Purge, I thought to myself, “I wouldn’t be going through this anxiety if I could get through this darn separation stuff in just 3-4 hours by hitting play over and over on the DVR!” I don’t blame you for taking that route. I am sorry that your life is hitting such a rough patch again and I will miss talking with you for the next several episodes, but we all have to do what we can to save ourselves unnecessary heartache. Here’s hoping the other side is the best bromance ever!
#23 Cat …and I love reading your comments! You have such an optimistic view! I [i]want [/i] and [i]need [/i]to believe as you do because the alternative is unacceptable to me! Not knowing whether or not we will be disappointed by something we love I guess is part of the process of accepting change. I was perfectly happy watching the boys be codependent though! Since my only choices now are either to give up or brave it out, I choose to believe. Thanks for the encouragement!
#23 Cat …and I love reading your comments! You have such an optimistic view! I [i]want [/i] and [i]need [/i]to believe as you do because the alternative is unacceptable to me! Not knowing whether or not we will be disappointed by something we love I guess is part of the process of accepting change. I was perfectly happy watching the boys be codependent though! Since my only choices now are either to give up or brave it out, I choose to believe. Thanks for the encouragement!
[quote name=”Puck”] We have to sacrifice something too as we journey with them back to each other. Our reality of their world? Our suspension of our own realities that are bleeding into the sacred ground of TV bliss?
Whatever road they go down I’m in, … We’ve trusted them this far. I’d say they earned it even if, like Dean, they have to earn it back. I’m sure they will. I’m sure he will. … the bigger the risk then the bigger the reward. This is a big risk. The pay-off of their new understanding will likely be completely worth it. [/quote]
Beautifully said. I love the way you framed it. I think I will re-read your words often.
[quote] We have to sacrifice something too as we journey with them back to each other. Our reality of their world? Our suspension of our own realities that are bleeding into the sacred ground of TV bliss?
Whatever road they go down I’m in, … We’ve trusted them this far. I’d say they earned it even if, like Dean, they have to earn it back. I’m sure they will. I’m sure he will. … the bigger the risk then the bigger the reward. This is a big risk. The pay-off of their new understanding will likely be completely worth it. [/quote]
Beautifully said. I love the way you framed it. I think I will re-read your words often.
#25 Geordiegirl1967 I’m sorry this is hurting so much. You are not alone. In a weird sort of way, the fact that this show can affect us so much is a testament to its quality. We love these boys and want to help them through their pain. We [i]feel [/i]their pain, and you are right – our own real lives gives us all more than our fair share. Jensen commented that this set of episodes affected him personally – that he took home the depression Dean felt being ostracized from Sam. I don’t want to stay stuck in this depressing place in the show though. When in a scary place in my own life, I always tell myself “The only way past it is straight through it”. That is how I feel about the show right now. If it’s bumming you out too much, maybe binge watch like st50? Otherwise, stick it out with us by your side. Misery loves company!
[quote name=”Geordiegirl1967″]
The dislike of this approach to the brothers bond is as universal a view as I’ve seen in this fandom for a very long time. Consensus is a rare thing among SPN fans but this is the closest I’ve seen to it.[/quote] 1000 times, YES!
#25 Geordiegirl1967 I’m sorry this is hurting so much. You are not alone. In a weird sort of way, the fact that this show can affect us so much is a testament to its quality. We love these boys and want to help them through their pain. We [i]feel [/i]their pain, and you are right – our own real lives gives us all more than our fair share. Jensen commented that this set of episodes affected him personally – that he took home the depression Dean felt being ostracized from Sam. I don’t want to stay stuck in this depressing place in the show though. When in a scary place in my own life, I always tell myself “The only way past it is straight through it”. That is how I feel about the show right now. If it’s bumming you out too much, maybe binge watch like st50? Otherwise, stick it out with us by your side. Misery loves company!
[quote]
The dislike of this approach to the brothers bond is as universal a view as I’ve seen in this fandom for a very long time. Consensus is a rare thing among SPN fans but this is the closest I’ve seen to it.[/quote] 1000 times, YES!
[quote name=”leah d”] Enough already. … I don’t care that much about the new maturity we supposedly are heading for. I want the brothers back to basics. Early on, dysfunction and all, I felt the love. Even when things were rocky I knew they would be drawn together again. I love a certain amount of angst but how long can they drag this out? How many seasons can they screw with what we all fell in love with?? I am a masochist so I will continue watching until the series finale! Despite some moments of brilliance, it is just not the same show anymore. I love the characters Sam and Dean and the actors Jared and Jensen so much that I will not ever jump ship but the show is more painful to watch lately. Not nearly as fun and heartwarming (in it’s gruff way) as it used to be. Don’t mind me I am just missing the “old” days. 🙂 Thank you for the lovely article![/quote]
Last night, I started reading a season 3 tie-in book ([i]Bone Key[/i]) to relax before bed. Dean is headed for Hell, Sam feels helpless – all is desperate. Yet I felt such a warm feeling inside, like I was together with old friends again. I miss that. All I can say is that I feel we are in the eye of the storm. It won’t be easy to go through what still lies ahead, but I want the better bromance the writing team is promising us. Better, not different, Jeremy!! WE WANT OUR BOYS BACK (Please).
[quote] Enough already. … I don’t care that much about the new maturity we supposedly are heading for. I want the brothers back to basics. Early on, dysfunction and all, I felt the love. Even when things were rocky I knew they would be drawn together again. I love a certain amount of angst but how long can they drag this out? How many seasons can they screw with what we all fell in love with?? I am a masochist so I will continue watching until the series finale! Despite some moments of brilliance, it is just not the same show anymore. I love the characters Sam and Dean and the actors Jared and Jensen so much that I will not ever jump ship but the show is more painful to watch lately. Not nearly as fun and heartwarming (in it’s gruff way) as it used to be. Don’t mind me I am just missing the “old” days. 🙂 Thank you for the lovely article![/quote]
Last night, I started reading a season 3 tie-in book ([i]Bone Key[/i]) to relax before bed. Dean is headed for Hell, Sam feels helpless – all is desperate. Yet I felt such a warm feeling inside, like I was together with old friends again. I miss that. All I can say is that I feel we are in the eye of the storm. It won’t be easy to go through what still lies ahead, but I want the better bromance the writing team is promising us. Better, not different, Jeremy!! WE WANT OUR BOYS BACK (Please).
[quote name=”Prix68″]For me personally, Sam saving Dean under any circumstances won’t solve anything for me between the brothers now. Oddly, TNT is showing “Lazarus Rising” today and I just watched Bobby give Dean “the don’t be a whiny brat, you need to save your brother cause you don’t turn your back on family no matter what they do” speech. Too bad Sam missed out on this family speech or he might have some insight into how his brother feels.[/quote]
Sam is the victim here not the villain.
Dean is not a villain either.
But he surely isn’t the victim of anything Sam has done.
[quote]For me personally, Sam saving Dean under any circumstances won’t solve anything for me between the brothers now. Oddly, TNT is showing “Lazarus Rising” today and I just watched Bobby give Dean “the don’t be a whiny brat, you need to save your brother cause you don’t turn your back on family no matter what they do” speech. Too bad Sam missed out on this family speech or he might have some insight into how his brother feels.[/quote]
Sam is the victim here not the villain.
Dean is not a villain either.
But he surely isn’t the victim of anything Sam has done.
Why Sam is the ”villan” out of this? it is a question I have been asking myself since Tuesday .
Why Sam is the ”villan” out of this? it is a question I have been asking myself since Tuesday .
[quote name=”Sharon”]Why Sam is the ”villan” out of this? it is a question I have been asking myself since Tuesday .[/quote]
Me too… it’s baffling.
[quote]Why Sam is the ”villan” out of this? it is a question I have been asking myself since Tuesday .[/quote]
Me too… it’s baffling.
I am terrible terribly let down by it. feels like JC has sucked all the love out of brothers in this episode. The episode or rather the whole development post mid season made Sacrifice as no-existence episode.
But thanks very much for putting my and many others concerns so eloquently
I am terrible terribly let down by it. feels like JC has sucked all the love out of brothers in this episode. The episode or rather the whole development post mid season made Sacrifice as no-existence episode.
But thanks very much for putting my and many others concerns so eloquently
One more thing to add- i am a sam girl but i dont connect with this sam. JC has changed my sam totally be it for growth maturity or whatever
One more thing to add- i am a sam girl but i dont connect with this sam. JC has changed my sam totally be it for growth maturity or whatever
[quote name=”mary9930″]
I don’t want Sam to make a bad decision to save Dean. I just want him to be faced with 2 bad options in order to do so. Then to make everything end happily (for me) Team Free Will brainstorms a 3rd solution resulting in pie & unicorns for all :)[/quote]
I’m with Mary on this one 😀 And with eilf on Dean realising exactly why he can’t continue to behave this way.
[quote]
I don’t want Sam to make a bad decision to save Dean. I just want him to be faced with 2 bad options in order to do so. Then to make everything end happily (for me) Team Free Will brainstorms a 3rd solution resulting in pie & unicorns for all :)[/quote]
I’m with Mary on this one 😀 And with eilf on Dean realising exactly why he can’t continue to behave this way.
[quote name=”Sharon”]Why Sam is the ”villan” out of this? it is a question I have been asking myself since Tuesday .[/quote]
It baffles me as well. He was the victim here.
[quote]Why Sam is the ”villan” out of this? it is a question I have been asking myself since Tuesday .[/quote]
It baffles me as well. He was the victim here.
Hi Nightsky. Lovely article as always. Having said that though, I just cannot get on board with what you are saying here. Yes, I too fell in love with the co-dependent and slightly warped brother bond that we saw in the early days, but they are different people now, grown men, and I for one, do not want to see the same thing over and over and over again. Yes, we are all a little obsessed with our Show, but I think we need to remember that it IS a show, and because of that it needs to follow the rules of drama to remain compelling. Nothing is worse to me than characters who have one profound experience after another and remain unchanged by those experiences. It’s boring and predictable, and characters who are written that way irritate me, loose their luster and complexity and quite frankly, make me stop caring about them. I am afraid that, for me, I am close to this feeling with Dean: I mean, what’s it gonna take? I think (and hope) that this is Dean’s season 4… for better of for worse, Sam went through some enormous changes in season 4 and it appears that he has learned from what he went through. Dean has also gone through terrible things too, but he is still making those same types of choices that he made in season 1 and they are less and less effective and more destructive each time. And although Dean HAS gone through terrible things, he has never lost control of his agency or had his life mapped out for him in a way that makes him feel that he has never had control over his life. Sam has… at one point Sam wasn’t even free to kill himself knowing that Lucifer would just bring him back. Has Dean ever been that helpless in any aspect of his own life? Being taken over by a ghost for five minutes and not being able to remember it is not the same as being manipulated since you were 6 months old.
For me, to remain relevant and interesting dramatically, the characters much change and evolve. Their relationship has appeared increasingly juvenile to me over the years becasue they are still stuck in the rut of their teenage years with Dean making all the decisions and Sam needing saving becasue he’s younger and smaller (at least he WAS). Its not a good look on a couple of 30 somethings. I think that’s why they have been living out of the Impala less and less; it made sense when they were kids, but on two grown men it’s weird, even creepy. Its time the boys grew up IMO, and I am totally on board here to see what happens next!
Hi Nightsky. Lovely article as always. Having said that though, I just cannot get on board with what you are saying here. Yes, I too fell in love with the co-dependent and slightly warped brother bond that we saw in the early days, but they are different people now, grown men, and I for one, do not want to see the same thing over and over and over again. Yes, we are all a little obsessed with our Show, but I think we need to remember that it IS a show, and because of that it needs to follow the rules of drama to remain compelling. Nothing is worse to me than characters who have one profound experience after another and remain unchanged by those experiences. It’s boring and predictable, and characters who are written that way irritate me, loose their luster and complexity and quite frankly, make me stop caring about them. I am afraid that, for me, I am close to this feeling with Dean: I mean, what’s it gonna take? I think (and hope) that this is Dean’s season 4… for better of for worse, Sam went through some enormous changes in season 4 and it appears that he has learned from what he went through. Dean has also gone through terrible things too, but he is still making those same types of choices that he made in season 1 and they are less and less effective and more destructive each time. And although Dean HAS gone through terrible things, he has never lost control of his agency or had his life mapped out for him in a way that makes him feel that he has never had control over his life. Sam has… at one point Sam wasn’t even free to kill himself knowing that Lucifer would just bring him back. Has Dean ever been that helpless in any aspect of his own life? Being taken over by a ghost for five minutes and not being able to remember it is not the same as being manipulated since you were 6 months old.
For me, to remain relevant and interesting dramatically, the characters much change and evolve. Their relationship has appeared increasingly juvenile to me over the years becasue they are still stuck in the rut of their teenage years with Dean making all the decisions and Sam needing saving becasue he’s younger and smaller (at least he WAS). Its not a good look on a couple of 30 somethings. I think that’s why they have been living out of the Impala less and less; it made sense when they were kids, but on two grown men it’s weird, even creepy. Its time the boys grew up IMO, and I am totally on board here to see what happens next!
[quote name=”percysowner”][quote name=”Sharon”]Why Sam is the ”villan” out of this? it is a question I have been asking myself since Tuesday .[/quote]
It baffles me as well. He was the victim here.[/quote]
Me too. My heart has been so heavy this whole season.
[quote][quote]Why Sam is the ”villan” out of this? it is a question I have been asking myself since Tuesday .[/quote]
It baffles me as well. He was the victim here.[/quote]
Me too. My heart has been so heavy this whole season.
[quote name=”percysowner”][quote name=”Sharon”]Why Sam is the ”villan” out of this? it is a question I have been asking myself since Tuesday .[/quote]
It baffles me as well. He was the victim here.[/quote]
Baffled here too. Sam is the victim and yet he is the one being blamed and vilified. It’s quite disturbing.
Interesting article, Nightsky, I enjoyed reading it and I’ve been thinking about it all day, trying to work out how I feel about the subject. In the end I think I agree with [b]E[/b] #54. Like many of us i too fell in love with the boys’ messed up, co-dependent relationship but I feel that it is time that these men moved towards a more grown up relationship. I can’t believe I am writing this (after 8 seasons of obsessively loving their messed up co-dependency it is quite unnerving to find myself thinking this way) but I am finding myself ready for their co-dependency to lessen. It has gotten too destructive and there’s been too much collateral damage. I am looking forward to seeing how their relationship evolves this year.
[quote][quote]Why Sam is the ”villan” out of this? it is a question I have been asking myself since Tuesday .[/quote]
It baffles me as well. He was the victim here.[/quote]
Baffled here too. Sam is the victim and yet he is the one being blamed and vilified. It’s quite disturbing.
Interesting article, Nightsky, I enjoyed reading it and I’ve been thinking about it all day, trying to work out how I feel about the subject. In the end I think I agree with [b]E[/b] #54. Like many of us i too fell in love with the boys’ messed up, co-dependent relationship but I feel that it is time that these men moved towards a more grown up relationship. I can’t believe I am writing this (after 8 seasons of obsessively loving their messed up co-dependency it is quite unnerving to find myself thinking this way) but I am finding myself ready for their co-dependency to lessen. It has gotten too destructive and there’s been too much collateral damage. I am looking forward to seeing how their relationship evolves this year.
Nightsky: For days I have really been struggling with that final scene in “The Purge”.
Then this morning I am sitting in my living room watching reruns of SPN on TNT when the episode “When the Levee Breaks” comes on. We get to that emotional scene between Bobby and Dean when Dean says “I guess that I have finally found my line. I won’t let my brother turn in to a monster” and he says that he would rather let Sam “die human”. And suddenly a little light bulb goes on right inside my head!
Do you think that we can use that same dialogue to better explain what is going on inside Sam’s head right now? Has Sam finally found HIS line that he won’t cross for his brother? Meaning he would rather that either he or Dean “die human” than be turned in to a monster who does unconscionable things?
After hearing Dean tell Bobby that he was ready to let Sam die this morning, I felt a whole lot better about what Sam had said in “The Purge”.
Nightsky: For days I have really been struggling with that final scene in “The Purge”.
Then this morning I am sitting in my living room watching reruns of SPN on TNT when the episode “When the Levee Breaks” comes on. We get to that emotional scene between Bobby and Dean when Dean says “I guess that I have finally found my line. I won’t let my brother turn in to a monster” and he says that he would rather let Sam “die human”. And suddenly a little light bulb goes on right inside my head!
Do you think that we can use that same dialogue to better explain what is going on inside Sam’s head right now? Has Sam finally found HIS line that he won’t cross for his brother? Meaning he would rather that either he or Dean “die human” than be turned in to a monster who does unconscionable things?
After hearing Dean tell Bobby that he was ready to let Sam die this morning, I felt a whole lot better about what Sam had said in “The Purge”.
Aww thanks Nightsky!
And you’re right. I love this show because Sam and Dean [i]are[/i] dysfunctional in a crazy, crazy world. It doesn’t seem so bad to feel flawed if you have a brother to watch your back; I’ve always wished I had that. I miss the old days, too. Seasons 1-3 were the best even if my favorite episodes are from 4-6 (I’m especially missing Ben Edlund), but Jeremy wrote my absolute favorite “Changing Channels.” I won’t change channels on them and I think he’s changing Sam and Dean into the men they were always intended to be–and I mean much more than just vessels.
[quote name=”nightsky”]You are not alone. In a weird sort of way, the fact that this show can affect us so much is a testament to its quality. We love these boys….When in a scary place in my own life, I always tell myself “The only way past it is straight through it”[/quote]
YES! We will get through it–right here, together–but it won’t be easy. Remember what Chuck said? “Endings are hard.” Yes, the brothers bond is ending one phase, but it’s beginning an entirely new phase. How? Because J2 [i]are[/i] amazing! Honestly, I really don’t do horror, but I’d watch these guys anyways. Mini-hiatus? No. My friends and I saving the regular time slots for “10 Inch Hero,” “My Bloody Valentine,” and “Friday the 13th.” For some strange reason I couldn’t convince these guys to watch “Gilmore Girls” with me. 😉
P.S.–Can people stop hating on Sam, please? It’s bad enough they’ve got him feeling guilty for being accomplice to murder of a friend, delivering heart-breaking truth to his only family, not saving the world, etc. Suzee’s right–I think Sam found his line.
Aww thanks Nightsky!
And you’re right. I love this show because Sam and Dean [i]are[/i] dysfunctional in a crazy, crazy world. It doesn’t seem so bad to feel flawed if you have a brother to watch your back; I’ve always wished I had that. I miss the old days, too. Seasons 1-3 were the best even if my favorite episodes are from 4-6 (I’m especially missing Ben Edlund), but Jeremy wrote my absolute favorite “Changing Channels.” I won’t change channels on them and I think he’s changing Sam and Dean into the men they were always intended to be–and I mean much more than just vessels.
[quote]You are not alone. In a weird sort of way, the fact that this show can affect us so much is a testament to its quality. We love these boys….When in a scary place in my own life, I always tell myself “The only way past it is straight through it”[/quote]
YES! We will get through it–right here, together–but it won’t be easy. Remember what Chuck said? “Endings are hard.” Yes, the brothers bond is ending one phase, but it’s beginning an entirely new phase. How? Because J2 [i]are[/i] amazing! Honestly, I really don’t do horror, but I’d watch these guys anyways. Mini-hiatus? No. My friends and I saving the regular time slots for “10 Inch Hero,” “My Bloody Valentine,” and “Friday the 13th.” For some strange reason I couldn’t convince these guys to watch “Gilmore Girls” with me. 😉
P.S.–Can people stop hating on Sam, please? It’s bad enough they’ve got him feeling guilty for being accomplice to murder of a friend, delivering heart-breaking truth to his only family, not saving the world, etc. Suzee’s right–I think Sam found his line.
[quote name=”Sharon”]It depends what you want from the brothers as to whether you see what Sam said has ‘harsh’ it seems people have got so wrapped up in what he said that why he said it has got lost.
I do not want a relationship where Dean gets to do what he wants in the name of ‘love’ to Sam . I find it disturbing that Sam has been demonized more for what he said than Dean for the original act that has caused so much pain . Sam must have some say over his own autonomy , what is done to his own body otherwise what would his worth be in a co-dependent relationship that allows full autonomy to Dean over eveything.[/quote]
Yes. That’s not a relationship. That’s owner and slave IMO.
[quote]It depends what you want from the brothers as to whether you see what Sam said has ‘harsh’ it seems people have got so wrapped up in what he said that why he said it has got lost.
I do not want a relationship where Dean gets to do what he wants in the name of ‘love’ to Sam . I find it disturbing that Sam has been demonized more for what he said than Dean for the original act that has caused so much pain . Sam must have some say over his own autonomy , what is done to his own body otherwise what would his worth be in a co-dependent relationship that allows full autonomy to Dean over eveything.[/quote]
Yes. That’s not a relationship. That’s owner and slave IMO.
[quote name=”RGNCY”][quote name=”percysowner”][quote name=”Sharon”]Why Sam is the ”villan” out of this? it is a question I have been asking myself since Tuesday .[/quote]
It baffles me as well. He was the victim here.[/quote]
Me too. My heart has been so heavy this whole season.[/quote]
Agree with all of you who say Sam is the victim here. He has been his whole life which is why this is so devastating for him.
[quote][quote][quote]Why Sam is the ”villan” out of this? it is a question I have been asking myself since Tuesday .[/quote]
It baffles me as well. He was the victim here.[/quote]
Me too. My heart has been so heavy this whole season.[/quote]
Agree with all of you who say Sam is the victim here. He has been his whole life which is why this is so devastating for him.
Just wondering why comments are closed on your other review of this ep Alice. Seems odd. Maybe just a glitch?
Just wondering why comments are closed on your other review of this ep Alice. Seems odd. Maybe just a glitch?
Rest assured, it’s very temporary Geordiegirl1967. I just received a few emails and report to the administrator messages on that thread I had to lock out the comments until I can jump in and moderate the thread, see what’s going on. Otherwise the mayhem would happen faster than I could catch up. Shouldn’t be very long.
Rest assured, it’s very temporary Geordiegirl1967. I just received a few emails and report to the administrator messages on that thread I had to lock out the comments until I can jump in and moderate the thread, see what’s going on. Otherwise the mayhem would happen faster than I could catch up. Shouldn’t be very long.
Edited by Alice – keep the attitude Geordiegirl. I’m aware. How about you send me a message via “Contact Us” and leave this out of Nightsky’s thread.
Edited by Alice – keep the attitude Geordiegirl. I’m aware. How about you send me a message via “Contact Us” and leave this out of Nightsky’s thread.
Edited by Alice – curb your temper. No snide comments about another poster or other boards. We are all Supernatural fans in the end.
Edited by Alice – curb your temper. No snide comments about another poster or other boards. We are all Supernatural fans in the end.
(EDITED BY ALICE) – personal attack. If you have a comment in defense of Dean, please express it. Attacking another poster for their views those is something we vehemently disallow here.
(EDITED BY ALICE) – personal attack. If you have a comment in defense of Dean, please express it. Attacking another poster for their views those is something we vehemently disallow here.
The way the issues have been handled both on the show and in the fandom feels very disrespectful of those of us who have been in the difficult situation of respecting a DNR order of a loved one. (That’s essentially what I see that Sam had with Death.)
IMO, Sam is now angry and lashing out….Begging to be understood and respected….And being victimized again by fandoms lack of understanding of that.
So, is show/fandom saying it is wrong to honour a DNR? Because you’re family, and you love the one that’s dying? It’s ok to do the one thing that the family member has hated/feared happening their entire life?
We’re saying that it’s wrong to be angry – and lash out verbally, even if it’s done with intention to hurt (if that’s truly what Sam did) – when your express wishes were ignored?
Is that what we’re saying? Because that’s what I’m hearing. Show/fandom is saying that I was wrong to honour my mothers wishes, no matter how much it hurt.
Thanks, Carver, for putting us all in this no-win situation.
No wonder the discussion is heated.
The way the issues have been handled both on the show and in the fandom feels very disrespectful of those of us who have been in the difficult situation of respecting a DNR order of a loved one. (That’s essentially what I see that Sam had with Death.)
IMO, Sam is now angry and lashing out….Begging to be understood and respected….And being victimized again by fandoms lack of understanding of that.
So, is show/fandom saying it is wrong to honour a DNR? Because you’re family, and you love the one that’s dying? It’s ok to do the one thing that the family member has hated/feared happening their entire life?
We’re saying that it’s wrong to be angry – and lash out verbally, even if it’s done with intention to hurt (if that’s truly what Sam did) – when your express wishes were ignored?
Is that what we’re saying? Because that’s what I’m hearing. Show/fandom is saying that I was wrong to honour my mothers wishes, no matter how much it hurt.
Thanks, Carver, for putting us all in this no-win situation.
No wonder the discussion is heated.
I understand that Sam was a victim. I don’t have a problem with his anger and words to Dean. He needed to express how he feels. I did wince at some of it. I love both these guys so much it is hard to watch. Neither one is the villain here. Dean did not set out to betray Sam and steal his autonomy that day. He was sitting a bedside vigil beside his failing brother. He made a desperate and snap decision and compounded it after the fact by lying to Sam (even that was, in his mind, helping Sam by not letting the angel get ejected). It turned out disastrous.
I can’t be mad at Sam for not trusting Dean, given what he has gone through. I can’t be mad at Dean either. Comments that say he was just selfish and didn’t want to be alone oversimplifies Dean’s motives and feelings. You just cannot remove the love he feels for Sam and the fact that the brother he has had by his side most of his life was slipping away. Of course he didn’t want to be alone. Dean can find companionship any time he wants so that isn’t the whole issue. It was his brother he wanted. The brother that had said, before he was beaten down by the trials, that he saw hope and a light at the end of the tunnel. I refuse to beat either brother up for any of this.
I am not excusing Dean. Not at all. It was wrong. But I have been at the bedside of four close family members as they were dying and if offered a way to restore them to health I might have. I never would’ve wanted them to endure more pain and suffering. But to be cured and healthy, hell yes. Wrong as it might be, I am not sure I could have passed it up.
Also to compare this to rape is just wrong IMO!! Rape is a violation, often violent, of someone body perpetrated by a person who willfully sets out to do harm. Dean, though wrong, did not mean to harm Sam.
I understand that Sam was a victim. I don’t have a problem with his anger and words to Dean. He needed to express how he feels. I did wince at some of it. I love both these guys so much it is hard to watch. Neither one is the villain here. Dean did not set out to betray Sam and steal his autonomy that day. He was sitting a bedside vigil beside his failing brother. He made a desperate and snap decision and compounded it after the fact by lying to Sam (even that was, in his mind, helping Sam by not letting the angel get ejected). It turned out disastrous.
I can’t be mad at Sam for not trusting Dean, given what he has gone through. I can’t be mad at Dean either. Comments that say he was just selfish and didn’t want to be alone oversimplifies Dean’s motives and feelings. You just cannot remove the love he feels for Sam and the fact that the brother he has had by his side most of his life was slipping away. Of course he didn’t want to be alone. Dean can find companionship any time he wants so that isn’t the whole issue. It was his brother he wanted. The brother that had said, before he was beaten down by the trials, that he saw hope and a light at the end of the tunnel. I refuse to beat either brother up for any of this.
I am not excusing Dean. Not at all. It was wrong. But I have been at the bedside of four close family members as they were dying and if offered a way to restore them to health I might have. I never would’ve wanted them to endure more pain and suffering. But to be cured and healthy, hell yes. Wrong as it might be, I am not sure I could have passed it up.
Also to compare this to rape is just wrong IMO!! Rape is a violation, often violent, of someone body perpetrated by a person who willfully sets out to do harm. Dean, though wrong, did not mean to harm Sam.
I can understand that to a point. But Dean has knowledge of Sam’s past experience’s and knew in making that decision was going against everything Sam would of wanted. He knew that and still went ahead and the fandom is well aware of Sam’s past as well and what he has gone through.
I can understand that to a point. But Dean has knowledge of Sam’s past experience’s and knew in making that decision was going against everything Sam would of wanted. He knew that and still went ahead and the fandom is well aware of Sam’s past as well and what he has gone through.
[quote name=”leah d”]
I am not excusing Dean. Not at all. It was wrong. But I have been at the bedside of four close family members as they were dying and if offered a way to restore them to health I might have. I never would’ve wanted them to endure more pain and suffering. But to be cured and healthy, hell yes. Wrong as it might be, I am not sure I could have passed it up.
[/quote]
But if the manner of that restoration to health meant they had to endure the one thing your family member was terrified of happening? (ETA: and the one thing they COULD not and WOULD not abide)
Would you STILL do that to them, leah? I couldn’t.
(ETA: because that does sound like rape to me – taking away someones ability to say no and have it mean no, whether or not you intend harm)
[quote]
I am not excusing Dean. Not at all. It was wrong. But I have been at the bedside of four close family members as they were dying and if offered a way to restore them to health I might have. I never would’ve wanted them to endure more pain and suffering. But to be cured and healthy, hell yes. Wrong as it might be, I am not sure I could have passed it up.
[/quote]
But if the manner of that restoration to health meant they had to endure the one thing your family member was terrified of happening? (ETA: and the one thing they COULD not and WOULD not abide)
Would you STILL do that to them, leah? I couldn’t.
(ETA: because that does sound like rape to me – taking away someones ability to say no and have it mean no, whether or not you intend harm)
[quote name=”st50″]
But if the manner of that restoration to health meant they had to endure the one thing your family member was terrified of happening? Would you STILL do that to them, leah? I couldn’t.[/quote]
I like to think I wouldn’t (although who knows if I might panic and do something I shouldn’t). There are things worse than death and everyone should respect that. You were right to do what you did, no doubt.
[quote]
But if the manner of that restoration to health meant they had to endure the one thing your family member was terrified of happening? Would you STILL do that to them, leah? I couldn’t.[/quote]
I like to think I wouldn’t (although who knows if I might panic and do something I shouldn’t). There are things worse than death and everyone should respect that. You were right to do what you did, no doubt.
st50@69- As I remember I was exhausted and not thinking too clearly in the case of my mom and sister so I am not sure st.
My comment came up at the same time as yours so I apologize if I seemed to be responding to you. I was not! I have been reading the comments for days now and this was a general reaction to all of them. I was wring that comment for a long time before I posted it.
st50@69- As I remember I was exhausted and not thinking too clearly in the case of my mom and sister so I am not sure st.
My comment came up at the same time as yours so I apologize if I seemed to be responding to you. I was not! I have been reading the comments for days now and this was a general reaction to all of them. I was wring that comment for a long time before I posted it.
Leah – Thanks for the email. I realize our first comments posted at about the same time, rather than one being a response to the other.
It’s fine. You did not upset me. 🙂
Leah – Thanks for the email. I realize our first comments posted at about the same time, rather than one being a response to the other.
It’s fine. You did not upset me. 🙂
st50 I also had to honor a DNA for my mother but I don’t see Sam’s case as a DNR situation. Sam had made a choice to live in “Sacrifice” and was questioning whether it was his time to die in 9.01. Dean knew Sam was mentally and physically wrecked after the trials, more like a man on the ledge getting ready to jump. Dean didn’t want Sam to make a permanent decision about a temporary problem. People who have a DNR have no hope of returning to their former health or selves. I also believe Sam may have not liked the possession idea but I don’t think he was terrified.
It really doesn’t matter what show/fandom thinks about what goes on in your real life though. IMHO .
st50 I also had to honor a DNA for my mother but I don’t see Sam’s case as a DNR situation. Sam had made a choice to live in “Sacrifice” and was questioning whether it was his time to die in 9.01. Dean knew Sam was mentally and physically wrecked after the trials, more like a man on the ledge getting ready to jump. Dean didn’t want Sam to make a permanent decision about a temporary problem. People who have a DNR have no hope of returning to their former health or selves. I also believe Sam may have not liked the possession idea but I don’t think he was terrified.
It really doesn’t matter what show/fandom thinks about what goes on in your real life though. IMHO .
Different interpretations, Prix.
Sam chose Dean in Sacrifice, so as not to let him down again. There is a difference. I have doubts whether he actually chose to live, or if that was the side effect Dean was counting on.
Sam said he was ready to go. He is Still saying it.
IMO, He’d had no hope of returning to his former health for a long time. Not since Cas had said in season 8 that Sam was beyond his abilities to heal. Sam knew at that point that it was going to take a deal or other Supernatural means, and he was trying to stop that happening. (Again, IMO).
I think his past has given him ample reason to be terrified of possession, but that is hardly the point. He didn’t want it to happen.
It is all really a moot point, now, and I’m just saying this is well past my comfort zone, Carver has brought up issues that I really doubt he intended to, and it has seriously impacted my love for this show.
Different interpretations, Prix.
Sam chose Dean in Sacrifice, so as not to let him down again. There is a difference. I have doubts whether he actually chose to live, or if that was the side effect Dean was counting on.
Sam said he was ready to go. He is Still saying it.
IMO, He’d had no hope of returning to his former health for a long time. Not since Cas had said in season 8 that Sam was beyond his abilities to heal. Sam knew at that point that it was going to take a deal or other Supernatural means, and he was trying to stop that happening. (Again, IMO).
I think his past has given him ample reason to be terrified of possession, but that is hardly the point. He didn’t want it to happen.
It is all really a moot point, now, and I’m just saying this is well past my comfort zone, Carver has brought up issues that I really doubt he intended to, and it has seriously impacted my love for this show.
I’m a little late posting this comment but. . . let’s remember no one in the Supernatural universe is quite himself right now. Castiel has borrowed another angel’s grace. There will probably be repercussions. Crowley has injections of Sam’s blood, and even Kevin’s. He’s also been “inside” Sam. This has probably changed him even though he doesn’t realize it. Dean is sharing more of Cain than he expected. He shares Cain’s mark, but he’s also exhibiting faster killer reflexes, and is using phrases that aren’t in current use (a whore’s bath? hoovered?). Sam had a selfish, self-righteous angel inside him for months. We know Gadreel left something of himself behind–bits of his grace–maybe Castiel didn’t get it all? And of course, a bit of Sam is probably still in Gadreel. (And what about Metatron? What’s he doing with Castiel’s grace?) Anyway, I just wanted to say have faith. This may just work out.
I’m a little late posting this comment but. . . let’s remember no one in the Supernatural universe is quite himself right now. Castiel has borrowed another angel’s grace. There will probably be repercussions. Crowley has injections of Sam’s blood, and even Kevin’s. He’s also been “inside” Sam. This has probably changed him even though he doesn’t realize it. Dean is sharing more of Cain than he expected. He shares Cain’s mark, but he’s also exhibiting faster killer reflexes, and is using phrases that aren’t in current use (a whore’s bath? hoovered?). Sam had a selfish, self-righteous angel inside him for months. We know Gadreel left something of himself behind–bits of his grace–maybe Castiel didn’t get it all? And of course, a bit of Sam is probably still in Gadreel. (And what about Metatron? What’s he doing with Castiel’s grace?) Anyway, I just wanted to say have faith. This may just work out.
[quote name=”Prix68″]st50 I also had to honor a DNA for my mother but I don’t see Sam’s case as a DNR situation. Sam had made a choice to live in “Sacrifice” and was questioning whether it was his time to die in 9.01. Dean knew Sam was mentally and physically wrecked after the trials, more like a man on the ledge getting ready to jump. Dean didn’t want Sam to make a permanent decision about a temporary problem. People who have a DNR have no hope of returning to their former health or selves. I also believe Sam may have not liked the possession idea but I don’t think he was terrified.
[/quote]
Dean said that Sam would rather die than be possessed, and I can see why Sam would feel that way after his experiences with Meg and Lucifer. Sam wants to save people, and on both occasions he was forced to kill people while possessed. So yes, I believe he would have been terrified to be possessed. Both for other people’s safety and because he couldn’t handle the guilt if the possessing angel turned out to be bad and he was yet again used as an instrument of murder.
[quote]st50 I also had to honor a DNA for my mother but I don’t see Sam’s case as a DNR situation. Sam had made a choice to live in “Sacrifice” and was questioning whether it was his time to die in 9.01. Dean knew Sam was mentally and physically wrecked after the trials, more like a man on the ledge getting ready to jump. Dean didn’t want Sam to make a permanent decision about a temporary problem. People who have a DNR have no hope of returning to their former health or selves. I also believe Sam may have not liked the possession idea but I don’t think he was terrified.
[/quote]
Dean said that Sam would rather die than be possessed, and I can see why Sam would feel that way after his experiences with Meg and Lucifer. Sam wants to save people, and on both occasions he was forced to kill people while possessed. So yes, I believe he would have been terrified to be possessed. Both for other people’s safety and because he couldn’t handle the guilt if the possessing angel turned out to be bad and he was yet again used as an instrument of murder.
[quote name=”st50″]Sam said he was ready to go. He is Still saying it. [/quote]
No. In the end, when it counted, Sam said yes to living rather than Death.
DEAN: Sam, listen to me. I made you a promise in that church. You and me, come whatever. Well, hell, if this ain’t whatever… But you got to let me in, man. You got to let me help. There ain’t no me if there ain’t no you.
SAM looks at DEATH, then back to DEAN.
SAM: What do I do?
DEAN: Is that a yes?
SAM looks at DEATH again and back to DEAN.
SAM: Yes.
Sam chose Dean’s plan over going with Death. Sam chose life over death, regardless of the details, which Sam didn’t ask about. It was Sam’s choice to say the word YES. Dean could not make that choice for him, and he didn’t.
[quote]Sam said he was ready to go. He is Still saying it. [/quote]
No. In the end, when it counted, Sam said yes to living rather than Death.
DEAN: Sam, listen to me. I made you a promise in that church. You and me, come whatever. Well, hell, if this ain’t whatever… But you got to let me in, man. You got to let me help. There ain’t no me if there ain’t no you.
SAM looks at DEATH, then back to DEAN.
SAM: What do I do?
DEAN: Is that a yes?
SAM looks at DEATH again and back to DEAN.
SAM: Yes.
Sam chose Dean’s plan over going with Death. Sam chose life over death, regardless of the details, which Sam didn’t ask about. It was Sam’s choice to say the word YES. Dean could not make that choice for him, and he didn’t.
[quote name=”lianne”][quote name=”st50″]Sam said he was ready to go. He is Still saying it. [/quote]
No. In the end, when it counted, Sam said yes to living rather than Death.
DEAN: Sam, listen to me. I made you a promise in that church. You and me, come whatever. Well, hell, if this ain’t whatever… But you got to let me in, man. You got to let me help. There ain’t no me if there ain’t no you.
SAM looks at DEATH, then back to DEAN.
SAM: [b]What do I do?[/b]
DEAN: Is that a yes?
SAM looks at DEATH again and back to DEAN.
SAM: Yes.
Sam chose Dean’s plan over going with Death. Sam chose life over death, regardless of the details, which Sam didn’t ask about. It was Sam’s choice to say the word YES. Dean could not make that choice for him, and he didn’t.[/quote]Sam asked for the details .It is there is the dialogue you have quoted.Dean chose to lie to sam rather than give hin the details and helped Gad manipulate him.That is also there in the dialogue.Dean could not make the choice but he can sure manipulate sam.Stone no 1 dean was more like stone thrower no 1 Dean.
[quote][quote]Sam said he was ready to go. He is Still saying it. [/quote]
No. In the end, when it counted, Sam said yes to living rather than Death.
DEAN: Sam, listen to me. I made you a promise in that church. You and me, come whatever. Well, hell, if this ain’t whatever… But you got to let me in, man. You got to let me help. There ain’t no me if there ain’t no you.
SAM looks at DEATH, then back to DEAN.
SAM: [b]What do I do?[/b]
DEAN: Is that a yes?
SAM looks at DEATH again and back to DEAN.
SAM: Yes.
Sam chose Dean’s plan over going with Death. Sam chose life over death, regardless of the details, which Sam didn’t ask about. It was Sam’s choice to say the word YES. Dean could not make that choice for him, and he didn’t.[/quote]Sam asked for the details .It is there is the dialogue you have quoted.Dean chose to lie to sam rather than give hin the details and helped Gad manipulate him.That is also there in the dialogue.Dean could not make the choice but he can sure manipulate sam.Stone no 1 dean was more like stone thrower no 1 Dean.
#77 lianne –
That is up for interpretation, and your views are no less valid than mine.
But for me, Sam did not so much choose [i]life[/i] over Death as he chose [i]Dean[/i]. As he always does.
From the cabin in Season 1. to the warehouse in Season 7 – he has always chosen Dean. Even his biggest mistake (Ruby) began to get revenge for Dean. Of course it morphed from there, but at its heart, it was always about Dean, imo.
I believe, in the church in Sacrifice, and again in his comatose mind, Sam once again chose Dean. As he always does. Not life. Dean.
He has begun to see that choosing Dean has not generally had great consequences, and that’s only one side of his choice of words about brothers and family.
Again, that’s my opinion. Any other is just as valid.
#77 lianne –
That is up for interpretation, and your views are no less valid than mine.
But for me, Sam did not so much choose [i]life[/i] over Death as he chose [i]Dean[/i]. As he always does.
From the cabin in Season 1. to the warehouse in Season 7 – he has always chosen Dean. Even his biggest mistake (Ruby) began to get revenge for Dean. Of course it morphed from there, but at its heart, it was always about Dean, imo.
I believe, in the church in Sacrifice, and again in his comatose mind, Sam once again chose Dean. As he always does. Not life. Dean.
He has begun to see that choosing Dean has not generally had great consequences, and that’s only one side of his choice of words about brothers and family.
Again, that’s my opinion. Any other is just as valid.
Nightsky, are you saying you don’t like all the angst? Because that’s what the show is all about. As Dean said last year, “What show are you watching?” Anyway, some fans like the angst others don’t. For those who don’t I have to wonder if you want the brothers to be nice to each other all the time and get along splendidly-well I feel that would be one long borefest.
Nightsky, are you saying you don’t like all the angst? Because that’s what the show is all about. As Dean said last year, “What show are you watching?” Anyway, some fans like the angst others don’t. For those who don’t I have to wonder if you want the brothers to be nice to each other all the time and get along splendidly-well I feel that would be one long borefest.
st50 No matter what the reason, Sam said “yes” and not what is the plan. He let Dean have the plan and make the decision. That is in black and white. Sam chose not to ask what the plan was. Sam made a choice even knowing how far Dean might go to save him.
Sam blamed Ruby for tricking him too and she said the same thing. She pointed out that she gave Sam choices and he chose the path he followed. That was after Dean, Cas, Chuck and the psychic ( can’t remember name) all warned Sam he was heading down the wrong path.
Dean made a decision and Sam chose to follow without question. Sam needs to be honest with himself as well as Dean.
st50 No matter what the reason, Sam said “yes” and not what is the plan. He let Dean have the plan and make the decision. That is in black and white. Sam chose not to ask what the plan was. Sam made a choice even knowing how far Dean might go to save him.
Sam blamed Ruby for tricking him too and she said the same thing. She pointed out that she gave Sam choices and he chose the path he followed. That was after Dean, Cas, Chuck and the psychic ( can’t remember name) all warned Sam he was heading down the wrong path.
Dean made a decision and Sam chose to follow without question. Sam needs to be honest with himself as well as Dean.
[quote name=”Prix68″]st50 No matter what the reason, Sam said “yes” and not what is the plan. He let Dean have the plan and make the decision. That is in black and white. Sam chose not to ask what the plan was. Sam made a choice even knowing how far Dean might go to save him.
Sam blamed Ruby for tricking him too and she said the same thing. She pointed out that she gave Sam choices and he chose the path he followed. That was after Dean, Cas, Chuck and the psychic ( can’t remember name) all warned Sam he was heading down the wrong path.
Dean made a decision and Sam chose to follow without question. Sam needs to be honest with himself as well as Dean.[/quote]
So Sam trusted Dean, so it’s equally his fault? That is victim blaming of the highest order. So if I trust someone I know to not steal my money, and they do, then I’m equally to blame for the theft? No, the other person did something immoral.
[quote]st50 No matter what the reason, Sam said “yes” and not what is the plan. He let Dean have the plan and make the decision. That is in black and white. Sam chose not to ask what the plan was. Sam made a choice even knowing how far Dean might go to save him.
Sam blamed Ruby for tricking him too and she said the same thing. She pointed out that she gave Sam choices and he chose the path he followed. That was after Dean, Cas, Chuck and the psychic ( can’t remember name) all warned Sam he was heading down the wrong path.
Dean made a decision and Sam chose to follow without question. Sam needs to be honest with himself as well as Dean.[/quote]
So Sam trusted Dean, so it’s equally his fault? That is victim blaming of the highest order. So if I trust someone I know to not steal my money, and they do, then I’m equally to blame for the theft? No, the other person did something immoral.
[quote name=”Prix68″]st50 No matter what the reason, Sam said “yes” and not what is the plan. He let Dean have the plan and make the decision. That is in black and white. Sam chose not to ask what the plan was. Sam made a choice even knowing how far Dean might go to save him.
Sam blamed Ruby for tricking him too and she said the same thing. She pointed out that she gave Sam choices and he chose the path he followed. That was after Dean, Cas, Chuck and the psychic ( can’t remember name) all warned Sam he was heading down the wrong path.
Dean made a decision and Sam chose to follow without question. Sam needs to be honest with himself as well as Dean.[/quote]
Sam did not say yes to possession [b]Prix68[/b] there is not even a argument to that. This he did not ask for the plan or details is nonsensical , he was dying he did not have all day to read the fine print,
A coma victim can not give a genuine verbal agreement to possession that is why the consent issue has been a hot subject , Sam was tricked as it was not even Dean talking to him and to say he should know how far Dean would go is unfair on Sam .
It is blaming Sam and it is this I have become uncomfortable with.
[quote]st50 No matter what the reason, Sam said “yes” and not what is the plan. He let Dean have the plan and make the decision. That is in black and white. Sam chose not to ask what the plan was. Sam made a choice even knowing how far Dean might go to save him.
Sam blamed Ruby for tricking him too and she said the same thing. She pointed out that she gave Sam choices and he chose the path he followed. That was after Dean, Cas, Chuck and the psychic ( can’t remember name) all warned Sam he was heading down the wrong path.
Dean made a decision and Sam chose to follow without question. Sam needs to be honest with himself as well as Dean.[/quote]
Sam did not say yes to possession [b]Prix68[/b] there is not even a argument to that. This he did not ask for the plan or details is nonsensical , he was dying he did not have all day to read the fine print,
A coma victim can not give a genuine verbal agreement to possession that is why the consent issue has been a hot subject , Sam was tricked as it was not even Dean talking to him and to say he should know how far Dean would go is unfair on Sam .
It is blaming Sam and it is this I have become uncomfortable with.
[quote name=”Prix68″]st50 No matter what the reason, Sam said “yes” and not what is the plan. He let Dean have the plan and make the decision. That is in black and white. Sam chose not to ask what the plan was. Sam made a choice even knowing how far Dean might go to save him.
Sam blamed Ruby for tricking him too and she said the same thing. She pointed out that she gave Sam choices and he chose the path he followed. That was after Dean, Cas, Chuck and the psychic ( can’t remember name) all warned Sam he was heading down the wrong path.
Dean made a decision and Sam chose to follow without question. Sam needs to be honest with himself as well as Dean.[/quote]
You appear to be saying that Sam was wrong to put his trust in Ruby (agreed) and it is now his fault that he was wrong to put his faith in Dean. Since he should have learned from all his mistakes in trusting people.
Are you saying that Sam should have known that Dean could be as deceitful as Ruby was?
I think it stands to Dean’s character that Sam thought he could trust him, and now feels betrayed. Clearly Sam has / had more faith in Dean than most.
It is a pity Dean doesn’t see that.
[quote]st50 No matter what the reason, Sam said “yes” and not what is the plan. He let Dean have the plan and make the decision. That is in black and white. Sam chose not to ask what the plan was. Sam made a choice even knowing how far Dean might go to save him.
Sam blamed Ruby for tricking him too and she said the same thing. She pointed out that she gave Sam choices and he chose the path he followed. That was after Dean, Cas, Chuck and the psychic ( can’t remember name) all warned Sam he was heading down the wrong path.
Dean made a decision and Sam chose to follow without question. Sam needs to be honest with himself as well as Dean.[/quote]
You appear to be saying that Sam was wrong to put his trust in Ruby (agreed) and it is now his fault that he was wrong to put his faith in Dean. Since he should have learned from all his mistakes in trusting people.
Are you saying that Sam should have known that Dean could be as deceitful as Ruby was?
I think it stands to Dean’s character that Sam thought he could trust him, and now feels betrayed. Clearly Sam has / had more faith in Dean than most.
It is a pity Dean doesn’t see that.
[quote name=”Prix68″]st50 No matter what the reason, Sam said “yes” and not what is the plan. He let Dean have the plan and make the decision. That is in black and white. Sam chose not to ask what the plan was. Sam made a choice even knowing how far Dean might go to save him.
Sam blamed Ruby for tricking him too and she said the same thing. She pointed out that she gave Sam choices and he chose the path he followed. That was after Dean, Cas, Chuck and the psychic ( can’t remember name) all warned Sam he was heading down the wrong path.
Dean made a decision and Sam chose to follow without question. Sam needs to be honest with himself as well as Dean.[/quote]
Ruby and Dean both tricked Sam.The choice Ruby gave was after feeding him lies.That is trickery plain and simple.If she told him the truth and then Sam had chosen then it would not have been trickery.
[quote]st50 No matter what the reason, Sam said “yes” and not what is the plan. He let Dean have the plan and make the decision. That is in black and white. Sam chose not to ask what the plan was. Sam made a choice even knowing how far Dean might go to save him.
Sam blamed Ruby for tricking him too and she said the same thing. She pointed out that she gave Sam choices and he chose the path he followed. That was after Dean, Cas, Chuck and the psychic ( can’t remember name) all warned Sam he was heading down the wrong path.
Dean made a decision and Sam chose to follow without question. Sam needs to be honest with himself as well as Dean.[/quote]
Ruby and Dean both tricked Sam.The choice Ruby gave was after feeding him lies.That is trickery plain and simple.If she told him the truth and then Sam had chosen then it would not have been trickery.
[quote name=”Sharon”][quote name=”Prix68″]st50 No matter what the reason, Sam said “yes” and not what is the plan. He let Dean have the plan and make the decision. That is in black and white. Sam chose not to ask what the plan was. Sam made a choice even knowing how far Dean might go to save him.
Sam blamed Ruby for tricking him too and she said the same thing. She pointed out that she gave Sam choices and he chose the path he followed. That was after Dean, Cas, Chuck and the psychic ( can’t remember name) all warned Sam he was heading down the wrong path.
Dean made a decision and Sam chose to follow without question. Sam needs to be honest with himself as well as Dean.[/quote]
Sam did not say yes to possession [b]Prix68[/b] there is not even a argument to that. This he did not ask for the plan or details is nonsensical , he was dying he did not have all day to read the fine print,
A coma victim can not give a genuine verbal agreement to possession that is why the consent issue has been a hot subject , Sam was tricked as it was not even Dean talking to him and to say he should know how far Dean would go is unfair on Sam .
It is blaming Sam and it is this I have become uncomfortable with.[/quote]
Actually Sam did ask for the plan.
[quote][quote]st50 No matter what the reason, Sam said “yes” and not what is the plan. He let Dean have the plan and make the decision. That is in black and white. Sam chose not to ask what the plan was. Sam made a choice even knowing how far Dean might go to save him.
Sam blamed Ruby for tricking him too and she said the same thing. She pointed out that she gave Sam choices and he chose the path he followed. That was after Dean, Cas, Chuck and the psychic ( can’t remember name) all warned Sam he was heading down the wrong path.
Dean made a decision and Sam chose to follow without question. Sam needs to be honest with himself as well as Dean.[/quote]
Sam did not say yes to possession [b]Prix68[/b] there is not even a argument to that. This he did not ask for the plan or details is nonsensical , he was dying he did not have all day to read the fine print,
A coma victim can not give a genuine verbal agreement to possession that is why the consent issue has been a hot subject , Sam was tricked as it was not even Dean talking to him and to say he should know how far Dean would go is unfair on Sam .
It is blaming Sam and it is this I have become uncomfortable with.[/quote]
Actually Sam did ask for the plan.
Yes, there does seem to be a problem with this argument. Sam should trust Dean, but Sam was wrong for trusting Dean?
Yes, there does seem to be a problem with this argument. Sam should trust Dean, but Sam was wrong for trusting Dean?
Not sure where JC is taking us but I will stay along for the ride. I do know that the scripts are very clever in seeming to be one off stories, that disguise the themes that have been there for 9 years. This is a difficult feat to keep going with a long time series and it is working. Anytime a scripted show can move an audience’s emotions, it is working. The current phase certainly gives our actors opportunities to stretch a bit and show their outstanding abilities to bring fiction into a plane of reality that sometimes rips our hearts out. See the last scene of 9.13 .Trying to have faith that JCarver is not doing any of these twists as gratuitous acts and that when we look back we can say Ah ha! I should have known. Carver do not disappoint us!!! The road so far has been… loss for words at this point.
Not sure where JC is taking us but I will stay along for the ride. I do know that the scripts are very clever in seeming to be one off stories, that disguise the themes that have been there for 9 years. This is a difficult feat to keep going with a long time series and it is working. Anytime a scripted show can move an audience’s emotions, it is working. The current phase certainly gives our actors opportunities to stretch a bit and show their outstanding abilities to bring fiction into a plane of reality that sometimes rips our hearts out. See the last scene of 9.13 .Trying to have faith that JCarver is not doing any of these twists as gratuitous acts and that when we look back we can say Ah ha! I should have known. Carver do not disappoint us!!! The road so far has been… loss for words at this point.
I disagree Sharon. Since Sam was in control of whether he lived or died according to Death, he certainly had a few moments to say, Well, first I need to know what the plan is. The only one who was under a time constraint was Dean.
You may be uncomfortable with Sam taking all the blame for this but I am uncomfortable with blaming Dean completely for things past and present that went wrong in Sam’s life.
Oh, and most coma victims don’t have a brother with a direct line to angels who could get a verbal commitment from them so that is a moot point. IMO
(Edited by Alice – Not relevant to discussion).
I disagree Sharon. Since Sam was in control of whether he lived or died according to Death, he certainly had a few moments to say, Well, first I need to know what the plan is. The only one who was under a time constraint was Dean.
You may be uncomfortable with Sam taking all the blame for this but I am uncomfortable with blaming Dean completely for things past and present that went wrong in Sam’s life.
Oh, and most coma victims don’t have a brother with a direct line to angels who could get a verbal commitment from them so that is a moot point. IMO
(Edited by Alice – Not relevant to discussion).
[quote name=”st50″]#77 lianne –
That is up for interpretation, and your views are no less valid than mine.
But for me, Sam did not so much choose [i]life[/i] over Death as he chose [i]Dean[/i]. As he always does.
From the cabin in Season 1. to the warehouse in Season 7 – he has always chosen Dean. Even his biggest mistake (Ruby) began to get revenge for Dean. Of course it morphed from there, but at its heart, it was always about Dean, imo.
I believe, in the church in Sacrifice, and again in his comatose mind, Sam once again chose Dean. As he always does. Not life. Dean.
He has begun to see that choosing Dean has not generally had great consequences, and that’s only one side of his choice of words about brothers and family.
Again, that’s my opinion. Any other is just as valid.[/quote]
This is exactly how I see this too ST. Sam has always done this because he admires his big brother and has wanted to show his love and faithfulness by giving up everything he really wanted because Dean needed him, and he has been happy by his brother’s side, and they have done good things together.
By 8.23 Sam finally hoped that Dean also relied on him and trusted him again, and now he feels completely betrayed.
No wonder he is angry, but I do think that what he has said is out of wanting them to be truly brothers again. Since all the damage that is ever caused to the show’s universe by the Winchesters always is brought back to, and blamed solely on, Sam and there doesn’t seem to be any way for Sam to correct this narrative I suppose Sam sees it as being up to him to stop this cycle of damage.
Since a lot of the damage results from Sam being brought back to life by Dean in defiance of the rules, maybe Sam feels it is up to him to say STOP, even to his brother, even though it hurts his brother’s feelings, and breaks Sam’s heart in the meantime.
In other words it is SAM who steps up to the plate and SAM who makes the hard decisions, because they are not clearly black and white.
[quote]#77 lianne –
That is up for interpretation, and your views are no less valid than mine.
But for me, Sam did not so much choose [i]life[/i] over Death as he chose [i]Dean[/i]. As he always does.
From the cabin in Season 1. to the warehouse in Season 7 – he has always chosen Dean. Even his biggest mistake (Ruby) began to get revenge for Dean. Of course it morphed from there, but at its heart, it was always about Dean, imo.
I believe, in the church in Sacrifice, and again in his comatose mind, Sam once again chose Dean. As he always does. Not life. Dean.
He has begun to see that choosing Dean has not generally had great consequences, and that’s only one side of his choice of words about brothers and family.
Again, that’s my opinion. Any other is just as valid.[/quote]
This is exactly how I see this too ST. Sam has always done this because he admires his big brother and has wanted to show his love and faithfulness by giving up everything he really wanted because Dean needed him, and he has been happy by his brother’s side, and they have done good things together.
By 8.23 Sam finally hoped that Dean also relied on him and trusted him again, and now he feels completely betrayed.
No wonder he is angry, but I do think that what he has said is out of wanting them to be truly brothers again. Since all the damage that is ever caused to the show’s universe by the Winchesters always is brought back to, and blamed solely on, Sam and there doesn’t seem to be any way for Sam to correct this narrative I suppose Sam sees it as being up to him to stop this cycle of damage.
Since a lot of the damage results from Sam being brought back to life by Dean in defiance of the rules, maybe Sam feels it is up to him to say STOP, even to his brother, even though it hurts his brother’s feelings, and breaks Sam’s heart in the meantime.
In other words it is SAM who steps up to the plate and SAM who makes the hard decisions, because they are not clearly black and white.
Warning! I do not have time this afternoon to moderate and edit comments, so if any comment shows disrespect to another poster or any sign of a bad temper, I’m unpublishing your comment and will review it later. Keep the discussion civil or I’m temporarily closing the thread.
Warning! I do not have time this afternoon to moderate and edit comments, so if any comment shows disrespect to another poster or any sign of a bad temper, I’m unpublishing your comment and will review it later. Keep the discussion civil or I’m temporarily closing the thread.
#87 Apparently Sam thinks so now in hindsight.
#87 Apparently Sam thinks so now in hindsight.
[quote name=”Prix68″]
You may be uncomfortable with Sam taking all the blame for this [/quote]
I’m uncomfortable with Sam taking ANY of the blame for the possession. He was tricked by someone he trusted more than anyone else in the world. Someone who KNEW how much he would abhor being possessed. Sam might have known Dean could get hold of angels, but he didn’t know that Dean would be willing to override his wishes like that.
[quote]
You may be uncomfortable with Sam taking all the blame for this [/quote]
I’m uncomfortable with Sam taking ANY of the blame for the possession. He was tricked by someone he trusted more than anyone else in the world. Someone who KNEW how much he would abhor being possessed. Sam might have known Dean could get hold of angels, but he didn’t know that Dean would be willing to override his wishes like that.
[quote name=”Prix68″]#87 Apparently Sam thinks so now in hindsight.[/quote]
[quote name=”Prix68″]#87 Apparently Sam thinks so now in hindsight.[/quote]
Yes, quite rightly too, now he knows what Dean is willing to do to him
[quote]#87 Apparently Sam thinks so now in hindsight.[/quote]
[quote]#87 Apparently Sam thinks so now in hindsight.[/quote]
Yes, quite rightly too, now he knows what Dean is willing to do to him
[quote name=”st50″]#77 lianne – But for me, Sam did not so much choose life over Death as he chose Dean.[/quote]
Sam choosing Dean IS Sam choosing life. And Sam knew this. Which is precisely why Sam created Dean in his mind — to fight for his life. Sam created a Dean in his mind who would not give up, who would fight him every step of the way to convince him to fight to live. And that’s exactly what the real Dean did.
Sam’s manifestation of Death told Sam it was HIS decision. Sam made HIS choice and his choice was yes, to Dean, to live.
[quote]#77 lianne – But for me, Sam did not so much choose life over Death as he chose Dean.[/quote]
Sam choosing Dean IS Sam choosing life. And Sam knew this. Which is precisely why Sam created Dean in his mind — to fight for his life. Sam created a Dean in his mind who would not give up, who would fight him every step of the way to convince him to fight to live. And that’s exactly what the real Dean did.
Sam’s manifestation of Death told Sam it was HIS decision. Sam made HIS choice and his choice was yes, to Dean, to live.
[quote name=”lianne”][quote name=”st50″]#77 lianne – But for me, Sam did not so much choose life over Death as he chose Dean.[/quote]
Sam choosing Dean IS Sam choosing life. And Sam knew this. Which is precisely why Sam created Dean in his mind — to fight for his life. Sam created a Dean in his mind who would not give up, who would fight him every step of the way to convince him to fight to live. And that’s exactly what the real Dean did.
Sam’s manifestation of Death told Sam it was HIS decision. Sam made HIS choice and his choice was yes, to Dean, to live.[/quote]
To a Dean that was not even Dean. I believe Sam was influenced by the emotional brother in front of him pleading ‘there is no me if there is no you’ and that resulted in life certainly.
[quote][quote]#77 lianne – But for me, Sam did not so much choose life over Death as he chose Dean.[/quote]
Sam choosing Dean IS Sam choosing life. And Sam knew this. Which is precisely why Sam created Dean in his mind — to fight for his life. Sam created a Dean in his mind who would not give up, who would fight him every step of the way to convince him to fight to live. And that’s exactly what the real Dean did.
Sam’s manifestation of Death told Sam it was HIS decision. Sam made HIS choice and his choice was yes, to Dean, to live.[/quote]
To a Dean that was not even Dean. I believe Sam was influenced by the emotional brother in front of him pleading ‘there is no me if there is no you’ and that resulted in life certainly.
#94 – Lianne,
I see your point, however: I remember a Sam who told the Dean-inside-his-mind that he’d made his choice, to let him go. He had chosen what was inside the cabin. He’d chosen Death at that point. He even said the words….It was what he wanted.
It was only after he’d made his pact with Death, and was confronted again by a panicked Dean (this time not his own construct, but the angels), that he chose Dean.
Again, different interpretations. I see life as a consequence of choosing Dean. Not part of the actual choice.
#94 – Lianne,
I see your point, however: I remember a Sam who told the Dean-inside-his-mind that he’d made his choice, to let him go. He had chosen what was inside the cabin. He’d chosen Death at that point. He even said the words….It was what he wanted.
It was only after he’d made his pact with Death, and was confronted again by a panicked Dean (this time not his own construct, but the angels), that he chose Dean.
Again, different interpretations. I see life as a consequence of choosing Dean. Not part of the actual choice.
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”][quote name=”Prix68″]
You may be uncomfortable with Sam taking all the blame for this [/quote]
I’m uncomfortable with Sam taking ANY of the blame for the possession. He was tricked by someone he trusted more than anyone else in the world. Someone who KNEW how much he would abhor being possessed. Sam might have known Dean could get hold of angels, but he didn’t know that Dean would be willing to override his wishes like that.[/quote]
Of course he did not. Dean knew Sam would never say yes to possession, the conversation with Gadreel prior the angel entering Sam’s mind showed that.
[quote][quote]
You may be uncomfortable with Sam taking all the blame for this [/quote]
I’m uncomfortable with Sam taking ANY of the blame for the possession. He was tricked by someone he trusted more than anyone else in the world. Someone who KNEW how much he would abhor being possessed. Sam might have known Dean could get hold of angels, but he didn’t know that Dean would be willing to override his wishes like that.[/quote]
Of course he did not. Dean knew Sam would never say yes to possession, the conversation with Gadreel prior the angel entering Sam’s mind showed that.
[quote name=”eilf”]I think it stands to Dean’s character that Sam thought he could trust him, and now feels betrayed. Clearly Sam has / had more faith in Dean than most.
It is a pity Dean doesn’t see that.[/quote]
I think if Sam is really honest with himself, he will realize that deep down he knew that Dean would do ANYTHING to save him. Sam knows that Dean has been groomed to be his protector since Dean was 4.
Sam knows Dean’s history — John’s mandate to save Sam which resulted in Dean selling his soul to bring Sam back, and later Dean risking his life to get Sam’s soul back, etc. Dean has demonstrated time and again that he values Sam’s life over any other. He told him this directly in 8.23 “there is no one I put above you.”
IMO despite what Sam tells Dean now, Sam’s actions in 9.1 showed that he was not ready to die. If he were, then he would not have created Dean in his mind who fought for him to live. And Sam would have said no to Dean’s plan. Sam would not have chosen Dean and life, IMO.
I don’t blame Sam that he no longer trusts Dean with his life. I get that and I hope Dean now gets that too. But I also wouldn’t blame Dean if he also no longer trusts Sam with his life. Especially after Purgatory, and now that Sam has told Dean directly that he would not go to the lengths Dean did for him.
Hopefully now they both understand each other’s point of view on this subject and they can move on. But if Sam feels the betrayal is too much, then I think it would be best for him if they separate. Dean could go off on his own and hunt, and Sam could perhaps live his normal life like he wanted to last season.
[quote]I think it stands to Dean’s character that Sam thought he could trust him, and now feels betrayed. Clearly Sam has / had more faith in Dean than most.
It is a pity Dean doesn’t see that.[/quote]
I think if Sam is really honest with himself, he will realize that deep down he knew that Dean would do ANYTHING to save him. Sam knows that Dean has been groomed to be his protector since Dean was 4.
Sam knows Dean’s history — John’s mandate to save Sam which resulted in Dean selling his soul to bring Sam back, and later Dean risking his life to get Sam’s soul back, etc. Dean has demonstrated time and again that he values Sam’s life over any other. He told him this directly in 8.23 “there is no one I put above you.”
IMO despite what Sam tells Dean now, Sam’s actions in 9.1 showed that he was not ready to die. If he were, then he would not have created Dean in his mind who fought for him to live. And Sam would have said no to Dean’s plan. Sam would not have chosen Dean and life, IMO.
I don’t blame Sam that he no longer trusts Dean with his life. I get that and I hope Dean now gets that too. But I also wouldn’t blame Dean if he also no longer trusts Sam with his life. Especially after Purgatory, and now that Sam has told Dean directly that he would not go to the lengths Dean did for him.
Hopefully now they both understand each other’s point of view on this subject and they can move on. But if Sam feels the betrayal is too much, then I think it would be best for him if they separate. Dean could go off on his own and hunt, and Sam could perhaps live his normal life like he wanted to last season.
[quote name=”Sharon”]To a Dean that was not even Dean. I believe Sam was influenced by the emotional brother in front of him pleading ‘there is no me if there is no you’ and that resulted in life certainly.[/quote]
But Sam believed it was Dean and that’s the point. The “emotions” exhibited were from inside Sam’s mind. Again, if Sam had no intention of living, then he would not have *created* Dean – someone who has ALWAYS fought to protect and save Sam – in his mind in the first place. Sam created the scenario of his brother fighting for him to live.
[quote]To a Dean that was not even Dean. I believe Sam was influenced by the emotional brother in front of him pleading ‘there is no me if there is no you’ and that resulted in life certainly.[/quote]
But Sam believed it was Dean and that’s the point. The “emotions” exhibited were from inside Sam’s mind. Again, if Sam had no intention of living, then he would not have *created* Dean – someone who has ALWAYS fought to protect and save Sam – in his mind in the first place. Sam created the scenario of his brother fighting for him to live.
[quote name=”lianne”][quote name=”eilf”]I think it stands to Dean’s character that Sam thought he could trust him, and now feels betrayed. Clearly Sam has / had more faith in Dean than most.
It is a pity Dean doesn’t see that.[/quote]
I think if Sam is really honest with himself, he will realize that deep down he knew that Dean would do ANYTHING to save him. Sam knows that Dean has been groomed to be his protector since Dean was 4.
Sam knows Dean’s history — John’s mandate to save Sam which resulted in Dean selling his soul to bring Sam back, and later Dean risking his life to get Sam’s soul back, etc. Dean has demonstrated time and again that he values Sam’s life over any other. He told him this directly in 8.23 “there is no one I put above you.”
IMO despite what Sam tells Dean now, Sam’s actions in 9.1 showed that he was not ready to die. If he were, then he would not have created Dean in his mind who fought for him to live. And Sam would have said no to Dean’s plan. Sam would not have chosen Dean and life, IMO.
I don’t blame Sam that he no longer trusts Dean with his life. I get that and I hope Dean now gets that too. But I also wouldn’t blame Dean if he also no longer trusts Sam with his life. Especially after Purgatory, and now that Sam has told Dean directly that he would not go to the lengths Dean did for him.
Hopefully now they both understand each other’s point of view on this subject and they can move on. But if Sam feels the betrayal is too much, then I think it would be best for him if they separate. Dean could go off on his own and hunt, and Sam could perhaps live his normal life like he wanted to last season.[/quote]
I respect your view but I have disagree with your idea that Sam knew Dean would do anything . I think Sam believing Dean knowing his history that one of the very things Dean would not do is possession . And the possession is only the tip of what when on afterwards.
People can make a argument for choosing life and Dean but not for the possession that is deflecting back on Sam rather than the trick used to get him to say ‘Yes’ .
I dont know where the brothers will end up but they cannot go back to where they were .
[quote][quote]I think it stands to Dean’s character that Sam thought he could trust him, and now feels betrayed. Clearly Sam has / had more faith in Dean than most.
It is a pity Dean doesn’t see that.[/quote]
I think if Sam is really honest with himself, he will realize that deep down he knew that Dean would do ANYTHING to save him. Sam knows that Dean has been groomed to be his protector since Dean was 4.
Sam knows Dean’s history — John’s mandate to save Sam which resulted in Dean selling his soul to bring Sam back, and later Dean risking his life to get Sam’s soul back, etc. Dean has demonstrated time and again that he values Sam’s life over any other. He told him this directly in 8.23 “there is no one I put above you.”
IMO despite what Sam tells Dean now, Sam’s actions in 9.1 showed that he was not ready to die. If he were, then he would not have created Dean in his mind who fought for him to live. And Sam would have said no to Dean’s plan. Sam would not have chosen Dean and life, IMO.
I don’t blame Sam that he no longer trusts Dean with his life. I get that and I hope Dean now gets that too. But I also wouldn’t blame Dean if he also no longer trusts Sam with his life. Especially after Purgatory, and now that Sam has told Dean directly that he would not go to the lengths Dean did for him.
Hopefully now they both understand each other’s point of view on this subject and they can move on. But if Sam feels the betrayal is too much, then I think it would be best for him if they separate. Dean could go off on his own and hunt, and Sam could perhaps live his normal life like he wanted to last season.[/quote]
I respect your view but I have disagree with your idea that Sam knew Dean would do anything . I think Sam believing Dean knowing his history that one of the very things Dean would not do is possession . And the possession is only the tip of what when on afterwards.
People can make a argument for choosing life and Dean but not for the possession that is deflecting back on Sam rather than the trick used to get him to say ‘Yes’ .
I dont know where the brothers will end up but they cannot go back to where they were .
[quote name=”Sharon”]
I respect your view but I have disagree with your idea that Sam knew Dean would do anything . I think Sam believing Dean knowing his history that one of the very things Dean would not do is possession . And the possession is only the tip of what when on afterwards.
People can make a argument for choosing life and Dean but not for the possession and I have seen very few people try to do that even if they did not like Sam’s harshness in the Purge.
I dont know where the brothers will end up but they cannot go back to where they were .[/quote]
And you know something,Dean became similar to Azazel, meg and Ruby.Dean knew how Sam felt about being possessed and at the end he did the opposite of that.Dean’s manipulation is more despicable than azazel and Meg and Ruby because this was the brother who had asked him earlier to trust his older brother and then proceeded to shatter that trust.
Sam chose his brother but Dean chose the path chosen by Azazel.
[quote]
I respect your view but I have disagree with your idea that Sam knew Dean would do anything . I think Sam believing Dean knowing his history that one of the very things Dean would not do is possession . And the possession is only the tip of what when on afterwards.
People can make a argument for choosing life and Dean but not for the possession and I have seen very few people try to do that even if they did not like Sam’s harshness in the Purge.
I dont know where the brothers will end up but they cannot go back to where they were .[/quote]
And you know something,Dean became similar to Azazel, meg and Ruby.Dean knew how Sam felt about being possessed and at the end he did the opposite of that.Dean’s manipulation is more despicable than azazel and Meg and Ruby because this was the brother who had asked him earlier to trust his older brother and then proceeded to shatter that trust.
Sam chose his brother but Dean chose the path chosen by Azazel.
[quote name=”lianne”][quote name=”st50″]#77 lianne – But for me, Sam did not so much choose life over Death as he chose Dean.[/quote]
Sam choosing Dean IS Sam choosing life. And Sam knew this. Which is precisely why Sam created Dean in his mind — to fight for his life. Sam created a Dean in his mind who would not give up, who would fight him every step of the way to convince him to fight to live. And that’s exactly what the real Dean did.
Sam’s manifestation of Death told Sam it was HIS decision. Sam made HIS choice and his choice was yes, to Dean, to live.[/quote]
There is no proof that it was Sam’s manifestation.He had Bobby for that.
[quote][quote]#77 lianne – But for me, Sam did not so much choose life over Death as he chose Dean.[/quote]
Sam choosing Dean IS Sam choosing life. And Sam knew this. Which is precisely why Sam created Dean in his mind — to fight for his life. Sam created a Dean in his mind who would not give up, who would fight him every step of the way to convince him to fight to live. And that’s exactly what the real Dean did.
Sam’s manifestation of Death told Sam it was HIS decision. Sam made HIS choice and his choice was yes, to Dean, to live.[/quote]
There is no proof that it was Sam’s manifestation.He had Bobby for that.
#54 E & #56 Gwen. – Actually I am heartened to hear that you understand the need for character growth in the relationship between Sam and Dean. Obviously, that is how Jeremy perceives it too. I have been challenging my own thinking as to what I really want here. I guess I keep coming out that I would be very happy with a better, loving, stronger relationship between the brothers. I can accept that it wouldn’t be co-dependent as long as it was epic. I have to trust the writers who can envision this type of new relationship, though. I can’t imagine one that would be as strong…and that is what unnerves me. I don’t mind letting go of what they have if, in fact, it has become dysfunctional. The waiting to see what will replace it though is very hard. That is where the loss / heartbreak /risk lies for me.
Somewhere in this thread (sorry, I’ve lost the exact comment) someone said that they are Ok with this change because they trust the writers. I like that optimistic, trusting approach. Although I may not like every episode or every development, I [i]love[/i] the show overall (obviously) so I will continue to offer my trust to the writers to see where they go with this. I am just asking Jeremy to please hurry so I don’t have to feel this loss too much longer!
#54 E & #56 Gwen. – Actually I am heartened to hear that you understand the need for character growth in the relationship between Sam and Dean. Obviously, that is how Jeremy perceives it too. I have been challenging my own thinking as to what I really want here. I guess I keep coming out that I would be very happy with a better, loving, stronger relationship between the brothers. I can accept that it wouldn’t be co-dependent as long as it was epic. I have to trust the writers who can envision this type of new relationship, though. I can’t imagine one that would be as strong…and that is what unnerves me. I don’t mind letting go of what they have if, in fact, it has become dysfunctional. The waiting to see what will replace it though is very hard. That is where the loss / heartbreak /risk lies for me.
Somewhere in this thread (sorry, I’ve lost the exact comment) someone said that they are Ok with this change because they trust the writers. I like that optimistic, trusting approach. Although I may not like every episode or every development, I [i]love[/i] the show overall (obviously) so I will continue to offer my trust to the writers to see where they go with this. I am just asking Jeremy to please hurry so I don’t have to feel this loss too much longer!
[quote name=”Daisymae”]Nightsky, are you saying you don’t like all the angst? Because that’s what the show is all about. As Dean said last year, “What show are you watching?” Anyway, some fans like the angst others don’t.[/quote]
Daisymae, I gave your question a lot of thought. If I’m brutally honest with myself, I like angst between the brothers as it adds to the drama of the show. The drama is a large part of the emotional pull of the show. I propose, though, that while the show includes angst, it is not [i]about [/i]angst. To me, the show is about the belief that the strength of family bonds can conquer unimaginable challenges. The love between these two brothers has literally saved the world (Swan Song). I accept that they are going to fight, they are going to approach things differently, and that they are going to each grow and change. To me, that is adequate drama. What is happening now is that the writers have challenged if not removed for the boys their underlying bond. I fully accept and believe that this is temporary, but it has shaken the very core of what makes this show special to me. I don’t want to lose the attachment the boys have for each other, because it means I would lose what I so love in the show. I choose to believe the writers when they say that this will all work out, but that doesn’t make it any less scary now.
So, for a TV show, drama is good. Angst is interesting. Growth revitalizes a story. That doesn’t mean I can turn off the anxiety is causes me to feel. I much prefer when the boys get along, and in balance, I want much more love for longer periods of time for just a while. I think we are all feeling the weariness that Sam and Dean are feeling.
[quote]Nightsky, are you saying you don’t like all the angst? Because that’s what the show is all about. As Dean said last year, “What show are you watching?” Anyway, some fans like the angst others don’t.[/quote]
Daisymae, I gave your question a lot of thought. If I’m brutally honest with myself, I like angst between the brothers as it adds to the drama of the show. The drama is a large part of the emotional pull of the show. I propose, though, that while the show includes angst, it is not [i]about [/i]angst. To me, the show is about the belief that the strength of family bonds can conquer unimaginable challenges. The love between these two brothers has literally saved the world (Swan Song). I accept that they are going to fight, they are going to approach things differently, and that they are going to each grow and change. To me, that is adequate drama. What is happening now is that the writers have challenged if not removed for the boys their underlying bond. I fully accept and believe that this is temporary, but it has shaken the very core of what makes this show special to me. I don’t want to lose the attachment the boys have for each other, because it means I would lose what I so love in the show. I choose to believe the writers when they say that this will all work out, but that doesn’t make it any less scary now.
So, for a TV show, drama is good. Angst is interesting. Growth revitalizes a story. That doesn’t mean I can turn off the anxiety is causes me to feel. I much prefer when the boys get along, and in balance, I want much more love for longer periods of time for just a while. I think we are all feeling the weariness that Sam and Dean are feeling.
[quote name=”nightsky”]#54 E & #56 Gwen. – Actually I am heartened to hear that you understand the need for character growth in the relationship between Sam and Dean. Obviously, that is how Jeremy perceives it too. I have been challenging my own thinking as to what I really want here. I guess I keep coming out that I would be very happy with a better, loving, stronger relationship between the brothers. I can accept that it wouldn’t be co-dependent as long as it was epic. I have to trust the writers who can envision this type of new relationship, though. I can’t imagine one that would be as strong…and that is what unnerves me. I don’t mind letting go of what they have if, in fact, it has become dysfunctional. The waiting to see what will replace it though is very hard. That is where the loss / heartbreak /risk lies for me.
Somewhere in this thread (sorry, I’ve lost the exact comment) someone said that they are Ok with this change because they trust the writers. I like that optimistic, trusting approach. Although I may not like every episode or every development, I love the show overall (obviously) so I will continue to offer my trust to the writers to see where they go with this. I am just asking Jeremy to please hurry so I don’t have to feel this loss too much longer![/quote]
I may be in the minority here, but yes… I feel that the relationship will be better once all this is sorted out. I am looking forward to it. As things stand now, there is no brotherhood, there is no trust and there is no equality. They way that they treat one another is not good. It may be done in the name of love, but people kill in the name of love and that ‘aint good either. I can’t really figure out why fans are not championing this change. I am of the opinion that the relationship will be better, stronger and more epic once it’s more balanced. It can still be wonderfully co-dependent, just not so lopsided, toxic and destructive please.
[quote]#54 E & #56 Gwen. – Actually I am heartened to hear that you understand the need for character growth in the relationship between Sam and Dean. Obviously, that is how Jeremy perceives it too. I have been challenging my own thinking as to what I really want here. I guess I keep coming out that I would be very happy with a better, loving, stronger relationship between the brothers. I can accept that it wouldn’t be co-dependent as long as it was epic. I have to trust the writers who can envision this type of new relationship, though. I can’t imagine one that would be as strong…and that is what unnerves me. I don’t mind letting go of what they have if, in fact, it has become dysfunctional. The waiting to see what will replace it though is very hard. That is where the loss / heartbreak /risk lies for me.
Somewhere in this thread (sorry, I’ve lost the exact comment) someone said that they are Ok with this change because they trust the writers. I like that optimistic, trusting approach. Although I may not like every episode or every development, I love the show overall (obviously) so I will continue to offer my trust to the writers to see where they go with this. I am just asking Jeremy to please hurry so I don’t have to feel this loss too much longer![/quote]
I may be in the minority here, but yes… I feel that the relationship will be better once all this is sorted out. I am looking forward to it. As things stand now, there is no brotherhood, there is no trust and there is no equality. They way that they treat one another is not good. It may be done in the name of love, but people kill in the name of love and that ‘aint good either. I can’t really figure out why fans are not championing this change. I am of the opinion that the relationship will be better, stronger and more epic once it’s more balanced. It can still be wonderfully co-dependent, just not so lopsided, toxic and destructive please.
[quote name=”anonymousN”]There is no proof that it was Sam’s manifestation.He had Bobby for that.[/quote]
I believe both the actor and the writer confirmed that Death was also Sam’s manifestation. Unless you mean Dean? And we know Dean was all in Sam’s head as well:
DEAN
You understand that we’re not really in this car right now. We are in your head, and you’re in a coma and are dying.
SAM
How do you know that?
DEAN
Because I’m you and you’re you. All of this is you. We’re in your head!
SAM
You’re serious. [exhales] The whole reason I stopped doing the trials was not to die.
DEAN
And the next time we see Naomi or Metatron or whoever is to blame for this, we will get some justice, but for right now, we got to fight this, man.
SAM
Okay. All right, what’s the plan?
DEAN
I’m working on it.
SAM
What does that mean? I’m kind of dying here, apparently.
DEAN
It means I’m working on it, all right?
Bobby was the side of Sam that thought it was best to give in to death, and Dean was the side of Sam who still wanted to live. Once Dean “got rid” of Bobby, Sam then brought in Death.
As Sam said above, the whole reason HE made the choice to stop the trials, was to NOT to die. But as reflected in the conversation I quoted, Sam knew Dean was working on a plan to save him, and in the end he chose Dean’s plan (and “not to die”).
[quote]There is no proof that it was Sam’s manifestation.He had Bobby for that.[/quote]
I believe both the actor and the writer confirmed that Death was also Sam’s manifestation. Unless you mean Dean? And we know Dean was all in Sam’s head as well:
DEAN
You understand that we’re not really in this car right now. We are in your head, and you’re in a coma and are dying.
SAM
How do you know that?
DEAN
Because I’m you and you’re you. All of this is you. We’re in your head!
SAM
You’re serious. [exhales] The whole reason I stopped doing the trials was not to die.
DEAN
And the next time we see Naomi or Metatron or whoever is to blame for this, we will get some justice, but for right now, we got to fight this, man.
SAM
Okay. All right, what’s the plan?
DEAN
I’m working on it.
SAM
What does that mean? I’m kind of dying here, apparently.
DEAN
It means I’m working on it, all right?
Bobby was the side of Sam that thought it was best to give in to death, and Dean was the side of Sam who still wanted to live. Once Dean “got rid” of Bobby, Sam then brought in Death.
As Sam said above, the whole reason HE made the choice to stop the trials, was to NOT to die. But as reflected in the conversation I quoted, Sam knew Dean was working on a plan to save him, and in the end he chose Dean’s plan (and “not to die”).
[quote name=”lianne”][quote name=”anonymousN”]There is no proof that it was Sam’s manifestation.He had Bobby for that.[/quote]
I believe both the actor and the writer confirmed that Death was also Sam’s manifestation. [/quote]
The actor said that because Death wasn’t eating he thought Death wasn’t ‘real’. This, to be honest, is a poor argument because Death has been seen a few times not eating. No writer has said anything remotely like that as far as I know but if there is evidence I will stand corrected.
As Sam is in the lowest mental state possible it seems unlikely that he would say the complimentary sort of thing to himself that Death says (though I get that some people think he would, *shrug*). Since it doesn’t entirely matter it makes me very happy that at least one person with ability to know should appreciate Sam’s sacrifices so I am sticking with it being Death 🙂 .
At the beginning of the episode Dean is entirely a manifestation in Sam’s head and Sam knows it.
Later on with Gadreels help Dean is actually in Sam’s head seeing what is going on in the conversation with Death where Sam makes the equivalent of his living will. It is that decision that Sam has made that makes Dean realise if he is going to do anything he needs to do it straight away. So THAT time it is definitely Dean.
At the end with the trick it is either Dean or it is Gadreel. If it is Gadreel then he has gone from knowing nothing at all about the Winchesters or how people interact to being an expert in subterfuge in the space of about an hour.
Personally I believe it is Dean until he morphs, because otherwise why would he need to morph? He could have stayed as the angel looking like Dean. I think we are supposed to understand that Dean got the agreement and Gadreel carried it out, it just seems to make the most sense.
[quote][quote]There is no proof that it was Sam’s manifestation.He had Bobby for that.[/quote]
I believe both the actor and the writer confirmed that Death was also Sam’s manifestation. [/quote]
The actor said that because Death wasn’t eating he thought Death wasn’t ‘real’. This, to be honest, is a poor argument because Death has been seen a few times not eating. No writer has said anything remotely like that as far as I know but if there is evidence I will stand corrected.
As Sam is in the lowest mental state possible it seems unlikely that he would say the complimentary sort of thing to himself that Death says (though I get that some people think he would, *shrug*). Since it doesn’t entirely matter it makes me very happy that at least one person with ability to know should appreciate Sam’s sacrifices so I am sticking with it being Death 🙂 .
At the beginning of the episode Dean is entirely a manifestation in Sam’s head and Sam knows it.
Later on with Gadreels help Dean is actually in Sam’s head seeing what is going on in the conversation with Death where Sam makes the equivalent of his living will. It is that decision that Sam has made that makes Dean realise if he is going to do anything he needs to do it straight away. So THAT time it is definitely Dean.
At the end with the trick it is either Dean or it is Gadreel. If it is Gadreel then he has gone from knowing nothing at all about the Winchesters or how people interact to being an expert in subterfuge in the space of about an hour.
Personally I believe it is Dean until he morphs, because otherwise why would he need to morph? He could have stayed as the angel looking like Dean. I think we are supposed to understand that Dean got the agreement and Gadreel carried it out, it just seems to make the most sense.
[quote name=”eilf”][quote name=”lianne”][quote name=”anonymousN”]There is no proof that it was Sam’s manifestation.He had Bobby for that.[/quote]
I believe both the actor and the writer confirmed that Death was also Sam’s manifestation. [/quote]
The actor said that because Death wasn’t eating he thought Death wasn’t ‘real’. This, to be honest, is a poor argument because Death has been seen a few times not eating. No writer has said anything remotely like that as far as I know but if there is evidence I will stand corrected.
As Sam is in the lowest mental state possible it seems unlikely that he would say the complimentary sort of thing to himself that Death says (though I get that some people think he would, *shrug*). Since it doesn’t entirely matter it makes me very happy that at least one person with ability to know should appreciate Sam’s sacrifices so I am sticking with it being Death 🙂 .
At the beginning of the episode Dean is entirely a manifestation in Sam’s head and Sam knows it.
Later on with Gadreels help Dean is actually in Sam’s head seeing what is going on in the conversation with Death where Sam makes the equivalent of his living will. It is that decision that Sam has made that makes Dean realise if he is going to do anything he needs to do it straight away. So THAT time it is definitely Dean.
At the end with the trick it is either Dean or it is Gadreel. If it is Gadreel then he has gone from knowing nothing at all about the Winchesters or how people interact to being an expert in subterfuge in the space of about an hour.
Personally I believe it is Dean until he morphs, because otherwise why would he need to morph? He could have stayed as the angel looking like Dean. I think we are supposed to understand that Dean got the agreement and Gadreel carried it out, it just seems to make the most sense.[/quote]
I have always thought that too. What would Gadreel know about cronuts and Death’s eating habits.
[quote][quote][quote]There is no proof that it was Sam’s manifestation.He had Bobby for that.[/quote]
I believe both the actor and the writer confirmed that Death was also Sam’s manifestation. [/quote]
The actor said that because Death wasn’t eating he thought Death wasn’t ‘real’. This, to be honest, is a poor argument because Death has been seen a few times not eating. No writer has said anything remotely like that as far as I know but if there is evidence I will stand corrected.
As Sam is in the lowest mental state possible it seems unlikely that he would say the complimentary sort of thing to himself that Death says (though I get that some people think he would, *shrug*). Since it doesn’t entirely matter it makes me very happy that at least one person with ability to know should appreciate Sam’s sacrifices so I am sticking with it being Death 🙂 .
At the beginning of the episode Dean is entirely a manifestation in Sam’s head and Sam knows it.
Later on with Gadreels help Dean is actually in Sam’s head seeing what is going on in the conversation with Death where Sam makes the equivalent of his living will. It is that decision that Sam has made that makes Dean realise if he is going to do anything he needs to do it straight away. So THAT time it is definitely Dean.
At the end with the trick it is either Dean or it is Gadreel. If it is Gadreel then he has gone from knowing nothing at all about the Winchesters or how people interact to being an expert in subterfuge in the space of about an hour.
Personally I believe it is Dean until he morphs, because otherwise why would he need to morph? He could have stayed as the angel looking like Dean. I think we are supposed to understand that Dean got the agreement and Gadreel carried it out, it just seems to make the most sense.[/quote]
I have always thought that too. What would Gadreel know about cronuts and Death’s eating habits.
At a convention Meet & Greet, Lynn of Fangasm asked Jensen if it was Gadreel or Dean talking to Sam in the cabin. Here is her report (from her review on “Sharp Teeth” on her blog):
“I was so horrified by this turn of events at the time that I convinced myself that it really was Dean talking to Sam in that cabin with Death (it wasn’t clear from what we saw in the actual episode). I wanted that to be true so badly that I asked Jensen about it at a con and then argued with him when he said no, that was Gadreel the whole time. I kept saying no no no, it can’t have been, that must have been Dean! I so wanted those words to be Dean’s (“They’re ain’t no me if there ain’t no you.”) that I literally tried to talk the actor who portrays Dean out of his interpretation of the scene. *is embarrassed*”.
I think many of us thought it was Dean, but Jensen didn’t think so.
At a convention Meet & Greet, Lynn of Fangasm asked Jensen if it was Gadreel or Dean talking to Sam in the cabin. Here is her report (from her review on “Sharp Teeth” on her blog):
“I was so horrified by this turn of events at the time that I convinced myself that it really was Dean talking to Sam in that cabin with Death (it wasn’t clear from what we saw in the actual episode). I wanted that to be true so badly that I asked Jensen about it at a con and then argued with him when he said no, that was Gadreel the whole time. I kept saying no no no, it can’t have been, that must have been Dean! I so wanted those words to be Dean’s (“They’re ain’t no me if there ain’t no you.”) that I literally tried to talk the actor who portrays Dean out of his interpretation of the scene. *is embarrassed*”.
I think many of us thought it was Dean, but Jensen didn’t think so.
[quote name=”nightsky”]At a convention Meet & Greet, Lynn of Fangasm asked Jensen if it was Gadreel or Dean talking to Sam in the cabin. Here is her report (from her review on “Sharp Teeth” on her blog):
“I was so horrified by this turn of events at the time that I convinced myself that it really was Dean talking to Sam in that cabin with Death (it wasn’t clear from what we saw in the actual episode). I wanted that to be true so badly that I asked Jensen about it at a con and then argued with him when he said no, that was Gadreel the whole time. I kept saying no no no, it can’t have been, that must have been Dean! I so wanted those words to be Dean’s (“They’re ain’t no me if there ain’t no you.”) that I literally tried to talk the actor who portrays Dean out of his interpretation of the scene. *is embarrassed*”.
I think many of us thought it was Dean, but Jensen didn’t think so.[/quote]
Ok then, can’t argue with that (much) 😉 But I will stick by the Death thing come hell, high water or Julian Richings (or Jared, or the writer) telling me different because to me it is the more important one and it has been the single best moment in this gloomy season so far ….(well, that and “Get. The hell. Out.”)
And I must admit I didn’t believe so much in the ‘there ain’t no me if there ain’t no you line …’
Actually I would be very happy if it were Gadreel saying that because it would mean that
1) Sam has a legitimate gripe about how much Dean manipulated him to get him to say yes -It seems obvious to me that in both the church and in the coma Sam said ‘yes’ with a very heavy, weary heart, only coming back because of his love for Dean and because Dean pleaded / guilted him into it. And it is part of why Sam is so angry now.
2) If it wasn’t Dean then Dean doesn’t know what was said, If Dean had done it then maybe he would have been honest and Sam could have made a legitimate choice.
In other words maybe this is a point of understanding that they can both come to and start to mend over.
[quote]At a convention Meet & Greet, Lynn of Fangasm asked Jensen if it was Gadreel or Dean talking to Sam in the cabin. Here is her report (from her review on “Sharp Teeth” on her blog):
“I was so horrified by this turn of events at the time that I convinced myself that it really was Dean talking to Sam in that cabin with Death (it wasn’t clear from what we saw in the actual episode). I wanted that to be true so badly that I asked Jensen about it at a con and then argued with him when he said no, that was Gadreel the whole time. I kept saying no no no, it can’t have been, that must have been Dean! I so wanted those words to be Dean’s (“They’re ain’t no me if there ain’t no you.”) that I literally tried to talk the actor who portrays Dean out of his interpretation of the scene. *is embarrassed*”.
I think many of us thought it was Dean, but Jensen didn’t think so.[/quote]
Ok then, can’t argue with that (much) 😉 But I will stick by the Death thing come hell, high water or Julian Richings (or Jared, or the writer) telling me different because to me it is the more important one and it has been the single best moment in this gloomy season so far ….(well, that and “Get. The hell. Out.”)
And I must admit I didn’t believe so much in the ‘there ain’t no me if there ain’t no you line …’
Actually I would be very happy if it were Gadreel saying that because it would mean that
1) Sam has a legitimate gripe about how much Dean manipulated him to get him to say yes -It seems obvious to me that in both the church and in the coma Sam said ‘yes’ with a very heavy, weary heart, only coming back because of his love for Dean and because Dean pleaded / guilted him into it. And it is part of why Sam is so angry now.
2) If it wasn’t Dean then Dean doesn’t know what was said, If Dean had done it then maybe he would have been honest and Sam could have made a legitimate choice.
In other words maybe this is a point of understanding that they can both come to and start to mend over.
[quote name=”lianne”][quote name=”anonymousN”]There is no proof that it was Sam’s manifestation.He had Bobby for that.[/quote]
I believe both the actor and the writer confirmed that Death was also Sam’s manifestation. Unless you mean Dean? And we know Dean was all in Sam’s head as well:
DEAN
You understand that we’re not really in this car right now. We are in your head, and you’re in a coma and are dying.
SAM
How do you know that?
DEAN
Because I’m you and you’re you. All of this is you. We’re in your head!
SAM
You’re serious. [exhales] The whole reason I stopped doing the trials was not to die.
DEAN
And the next time we see Naomi or Metatron or whoever is to blame for this, we will get some justice, but for right now, we got to fight this, man.
SAM
Okay. All right, what’s the plan?
DEAN
I’m working on it.
SAM
What does that mean? I’m kind of dying here, apparently.
DEAN
It means I’m working on it, all right?
Bobby was the side of Sam that thought it was best to give in to death, and Dean was the side of Sam who still wanted to live. Once Dean “got rid” of Bobby, Sam then brought in Death.
As Sam said above, the whole reason HE made the choice to stop the trials, was to NOT to die. But as reflected in the conversation I quoted, Sam knew Dean was working on a plan to save him, and in the end he chose Dean’s plan (and “not to die”).[/quote]
Julian richings assertion that it was not Death is based on a false premise of Death not eating.Because there are scenes where Death is not eating.It would be comical if Death had a burger in one hand and Sam’s soul in another hand and rather than inserting Sam’s soul he went with the burger.
The dialogue you have quoted proves Dean and Bobby were Sam’s constructs but it does not in any way say a thing about Death being the construct of Sam’s mind.That is just baseless extrapolation based on false premise.Dean got rid of Bobby and Sam got rid of Dean.
Not to die is not the plan Dean/Gad was underhanded enough to not tell the plan.How not to die is the plan not the sentiment to not die.
[quote][quote]There is no proof that it was Sam’s manifestation.He had Bobby for that.[/quote]
I believe both the actor and the writer confirmed that Death was also Sam’s manifestation. Unless you mean Dean? And we know Dean was all in Sam’s head as well:
DEAN
You understand that we’re not really in this car right now. We are in your head, and you’re in a coma and are dying.
SAM
How do you know that?
DEAN
Because I’m you and you’re you. All of this is you. We’re in your head!
SAM
You’re serious. [exhales] The whole reason I stopped doing the trials was not to die.
DEAN
And the next time we see Naomi or Metatron or whoever is to blame for this, we will get some justice, but for right now, we got to fight this, man.
SAM
Okay. All right, what’s the plan?
DEAN
I’m working on it.
SAM
What does that mean? I’m kind of dying here, apparently.
DEAN
It means I’m working on it, all right?
Bobby was the side of Sam that thought it was best to give in to death, and Dean was the side of Sam who still wanted to live. Once Dean “got rid” of Bobby, Sam then brought in Death.
As Sam said above, the whole reason HE made the choice to stop the trials, was to NOT to die. But as reflected in the conversation I quoted, Sam knew Dean was working on a plan to save him, and in the end he chose Dean’s plan (and “not to die”).[/quote]
Julian richings assertion that it was not Death is based on a false premise of Death not eating.Because there are scenes where Death is not eating.It would be comical if Death had a burger in one hand and Sam’s soul in another hand and rather than inserting Sam’s soul he went with the burger.
The dialogue you have quoted proves Dean and Bobby were Sam’s constructs but it does not in any way say a thing about Death being the construct of Sam’s mind.That is just baseless extrapolation based on false premise.Dean got rid of Bobby and Sam got rid of Dean.
Not to die is not the plan Dean/Gad was underhanded enough to not tell the plan.How not to die is the plan not the sentiment to not die.
I think whether it was really Death or not will be debated . At the end of the day Dean and Gadreel came up with a idea to trick Sam into saying Yes and it worked .
I think whether it was really Death or not will be debated . At the end of the day Dean and Gadreel came up with a idea to trick Sam into saying Yes and it worked .
IMO Death was NOT a manifestation inside Sam’s head, he was really there. Sam did not seem surprised to see either Bobby OR Dean in his head. Once he knew that he was dying, it was like he understood Dean and Bobby were basically manifestations of his different points of view warring inside his head, his conflict between life and death. But Sam was not expecting Death to be there, that was a surprise for him, so for me Death was in fact really there. If Death was a manifestation, then Dean had nothing to fear from the conversation that Sam and Death were having as it would have proved to be no threat. But both Dean and Sam took the ultimatum about dying being permanent this time seriously, so in order for that ultimatum to be real, then Death also had to be real to follow through on Sam’s wish. Why would Dean fear a deal Sam was making with a manifestation? It makes no sense. No, Death was really there and about to grant Sam his final wish to never to be brought back again, which is what prompted Dean to become desperate enough to trick Sam. No Death, no threat, no possession.
IMO Death was NOT a manifestation inside Sam’s head, he was really there. Sam did not seem surprised to see either Bobby OR Dean in his head. Once he knew that he was dying, it was like he understood Dean and Bobby were basically manifestations of his different points of view warring inside his head, his conflict between life and death. But Sam was not expecting Death to be there, that was a surprise for him, so for me Death was in fact really there. If Death was a manifestation, then Dean had nothing to fear from the conversation that Sam and Death were having as it would have proved to be no threat. But both Dean and Sam took the ultimatum about dying being permanent this time seriously, so in order for that ultimatum to be real, then Death also had to be real to follow through on Sam’s wish. Why would Dean fear a deal Sam was making with a manifestation? It makes no sense. No, Death was really there and about to grant Sam his final wish to never to be brought back again, which is what prompted Dean to become desperate enough to trick Sam. No Death, no threat, no possession.
Sam chooses death in order to spare more people from dying. What did he think was going to happen to people now that the angels had fallen and demons were still roaming the earth? I guess that Sam decided that was Dean’s problem or maybe some other hunter’s problem.
Sam chooses death in order to spare more people from dying. What did he think was going to happen to people now that the angels had fallen and demons were still roaming the earth? I guess that Sam decided that was Dean’s problem or maybe some other hunter’s problem.
[quote name=”E”]IMO Death was NOT a manifestation inside Sam’s head, he was really there. Sam did not seem surprised to see either Bobby OR Dean in his head. Once he knew that he was dying, it was like he understood Dean and Bobby were basically manifestations of his different points of view warring inside his head, his conflict between life and death. But Sam was not expecting Death to be there, that was a surprise for him, so for me Death was in fact really there. If Death was a manifestation, then Dean had nothing to fear from the conversation that Sam and Death were having as it would have proved to be no threat. But both Dean and Sam took the ultimatum about dying being permanent this time seriously, so in order for that ultimatum to be real, then Death also had to be real to follow through on Sam’s wish. Why would Dean fear a deal Sam was making with a manifestation? It makes no sense. No, Death was really there and about to grant Sam his final wish to never to be brought back again, which is what prompted Dean to become desperate enough to trick Sam. No Death, no threat, no possession.[/quote]
Yes I feel that it is important in a few ways that it be Death and not a figment. I really wish JR hadn’t done the guessing at the con that time, it has muddied the waters a bit.
[quote]IMO Death was NOT a manifestation inside Sam’s head, he was really there. Sam did not seem surprised to see either Bobby OR Dean in his head. Once he knew that he was dying, it was like he understood Dean and Bobby were basically manifestations of his different points of view warring inside his head, his conflict between life and death. But Sam was not expecting Death to be there, that was a surprise for him, so for me Death was in fact really there. If Death was a manifestation, then Dean had nothing to fear from the conversation that Sam and Death were having as it would have proved to be no threat. But both Dean and Sam took the ultimatum about dying being permanent this time seriously, so in order for that ultimatum to be real, then Death also had to be real to follow through on Sam’s wish. Why would Dean fear a deal Sam was making with a manifestation? It makes no sense. No, Death was really there and about to grant Sam his final wish to never to be brought back again, which is what prompted Dean to become desperate enough to trick Sam. No Death, no threat, no possession.[/quote]
Yes I feel that it is important in a few ways that it be Death and not a figment. I really wish JR hadn’t done the guessing at the con that time, it has muddied the waters a bit.
[quote name=”Prix68″]Sam chooses death in order to spare more people from dying. What did he think was going to happen to people now that the angels had fallen and demons were still roaming the earth? I guess that Sam decided that was Dean’s problem or maybe some other hunter’s problem.[/quote]
Hmm, after 8 years of solid hunting (only broken by stopping the Apocalypse and spending 180 years in Hell) and having a mental breakdown that nearly killed him, I personally think Sam has a right to rest. YMMV
[quote]Sam chooses death in order to spare more people from dying. What did he think was going to happen to people now that the angels had fallen and demons were still roaming the earth? I guess that Sam decided that was Dean’s problem or maybe some other hunter’s problem.[/quote]
Hmm, after 8 years of solid hunting (only broken by stopping the Apocalypse and spending 180 years in Hell) and having a mental breakdown that nearly killed him, I personally think Sam has a right to rest. YMMV
My mistake, after 187 years of constant fighting and torture, Sam DID get one year off when he thought Dean was dead.
My mistake, after 187 years of constant fighting and torture, Sam DID get one year off when he thought Dean was dead.
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]My mistake, after 187 years of constant fighting and torture, Sam DID get one year off when he thought Dean was dead.[/quote]
Seems fair, he is SUCH a slacker though 😛
I love the way everyone has our own personal accounting of exactly how old Sam is if you include Hell. It seems to range from ‘lounging around in the cage drinking martinis’ to ‘thousands of years’.
[quote]My mistake, after 187 years of constant fighting and torture, Sam DID get one year off when he thought Dean was dead.[/quote]
Seems fair, he is SUCH a slacker though 😛
I love the way everyone has our own personal accounting of exactly how old Sam is if you include Hell. It seems to range from ‘lounging around in the cage drinking martinis’ to ‘thousands of years’.
E@114- That is the best explanation I have heard yet. Perfectly logical.
E@114- That is the best explanation I have heard yet. Perfectly logical.
[quote name=”eilf”]
I love the way everyone has our own personal accounting of exactly how old Sam is if you include Hell. It seems to range from ‘lounging around in the cage drinking martinis’ to ‘thousands of years’.[/quote]
Very true. I believe the 180 years estimate comes from it being roughly 18 months between the screening of Swan Song and Appointment in Samarra. And 1 month in Hell equals 10 years according to Dean in S4.
But I don’t think it matters if it was a mere 100 years myself 😀
[quote]
I love the way everyone has our own personal accounting of exactly how old Sam is if you include Hell. It seems to range from ‘lounging around in the cage drinking martinis’ to ‘thousands of years’.[/quote]
Very true. I believe the 180 years estimate comes from it being roughly 18 months between the screening of Swan Song and Appointment in Samarra. And 1 month in Hell equals 10 years according to Dean in S4.
But I don’t think it matters if it was a mere 100 years myself 😀
[quote name=”leah d”]E@114- That is the best explanation I have heard yet. Perfectly logical.[/quote]
I agree.
[quote]E@114- That is the best explanation I have heard yet. Perfectly logical.[/quote]
I agree.