Alice’s Supernatural Season Eight Review: That’s Much Better!
In honor of today’s US release of “Supernatural†Season Eight on DVD, I’m presenting my annual review of the season gone past. Season Eight gave us so much more to work with and analyze, and I couldn’t be happier. Hopefully, I’m not alone.
Season Eight Review
I remember sitting down this time last year to write the “Supernatural†season seven review and I was stuck on where to start. Needless to say, S7 was a disappointment overall for this super fan, and I wasn’t sure where to begin with the question, “Where did it all go wrong?â€
For season eight, I have a similar problem, except this year I’m finding myself asking, “Where did it all go right?†No doubt about it, I loved it. While that may be unpopular opinion with some, perhaps the lowered bar from season seven helped with my perception of season eight. I had strong doubts going into the finale that all that happened in the season would be pulled together, and then it suddenly was in an episode that can be considered one of the series best. Now I can confess, I’m a happy “Supernatural†fan again.
No, the season wasn’t perfect, and some of the lingering issues of season seven could still be seen in season eight (*cough* inconsistent writing *cough*). But the inconsistencies were lesser, and overall the season felt like it had a solid theme and purpose. They started by remembering what this show was really all about.
It’s The Brothers Stupid
Season eight excelled because it did the one thing that has worked with all the other seasons (except season seven). The brotherly relationship once again took front and center. Way back in 2008 when I wrote my first ever “Supernatural†article, this is how I described this fascinating show that I had only recently discovered:
Simply put, season eight went back to those basics. The emotional connection was back. The brotherly hugs were off the chart! The devotion to one another was never better. Sure, they had troubles, which often doesn’t sit right with fans. Often fans are happier when the brothers are total sync, riding in the Impala, cracking jokes and hunting monsters. But given the year apart Sam and Dean had, and how much that time apart affected them, there was bound to be some adjustment pains.
Rifts are a common part of a family drama, and they have always been a part of the Winchester world. But Sam and Dean did reach a new level of maturity with each other, and gained a new appreciation of one another in the process. There was also a new hope too, that they could take on impossible tasks and live. They weren’t willing to allow one to sacrifice himself for another, no matter what. That even meant the ultimate goal of closing the gates of Hell. They ended the season with a new understanding. This speech from Dean kind of says it all, doesn’t it?
While season eight did have some rough spots, for the most part it stayed on track. There was more overall structure in the storytelling and most episodes and stories did blend well from week to week. This was especially true once the Men of Letters and The Trials were introduced, but the “flashback†sequences from the first part of the season added consistency to those as well. Not to say that I thought those flashbacks always worked or were a joy to see, but if anything they did follow a pattern that didn’t seem all that random.
Seasons six and seven were guilty of trying to do too much. The scripts were packed, and often times that led to plots that either went nowhere or were inexplicably dropped. Remember Samuel Campbell and clan? Mother of All going to a Mother of Nothing? How Sam’s mental illness in S7 didn’t lead to much except fan fury? Season eight didn’t try to throw the kitchen sink at us, which ended up being both good and bad. Good because that reigned in the focus on the main arcs. Bad because at times, the stories dragged and the episodes were lackluster. Considering though I spent more time wondering where this was going rather than exclaiming “WTF?†at another red herring, thinner plots worked fine for me.
Rebuilding The Universe
After losing everyone and everything in season seven, it was nice to get back to “rebuilding the universe†so to speak in season eight. Kevin became a key player in this world of discovered tablets established late last season, and the progression of his character this season was fascinating to say the least. Kevin had to sacrifice everything, including his well being and as we have been led to believe (there’s still no proof) his mother. Sam and Dean tried to give him hope of going back to that advanced placement life but that slipped away, and he was given a dose of reality by Castiel. He was a prophet of the Lord, and would be that way forever. Kevin of all people was left in the most vulnerable position at the end of the season, because closing the gates of Hell meant everything to him. Who knows what will become of him now that the gates are still open, all part of Sam and Dean’s unwillingness to make the ultimate sacrifice.
Charlie and Garth remained part of their circle, and in the process became stronger friends and allies. Garth is now the new Bobby, running the hunters network, and Charlie is getting more in tune to Sam and Dean’s work as hunters and Men of Letters (reading all of Chuck’s novels certainly helped get her up to speed). There were new friends too though. Who couldn’t forget the delightful story of Aaron Bass and his Golem? A kid who has been thrown into this world of monsters and the supernatural, inheriting it as his legacy much like Sam and Dean. The attempt to bring Krissy back didn’t go over as well, but at least she’s out there knowing that Sam and Dean will have her back, and vice versa.
Then there’s Crowley. My my, Crowley took a very different turn this season, and his upgraded role as the more antagonistic big bad added volumes to the drama this year. He wasn’t showing as much mercy with the Winchesters this year, but who could blame him. They were threatening to close the gates of Hell forever, thus locking him inside with all the rest. He had to fight to preserve his way of life, and when pushed Crowley clearly proved he could shove, that is until Sam and Dean got the upper hand in the season finale. In a twist of shocking, unparalleled drama, Sam’s attempt to cure Crowley of being a demon finally gave Mark Sheppard some new ground. He blew us away with a glimpse at a humanized, vulnerable Crowley, and that’s bound to have lasting effects for the next season to come.
I’d be remiss though if I didn’t mention the whole angel drama, which also was a stronger plot this season. You can’t have Heaven without Hell, and you can’t have a demon tablet without an angel tablet. Watching both sides tussle over controlling these tablets, and the word of God, with Sam, Dean and Kevin in the middle, added a whole new spark to this season and a personal element to the Winchester quest. Naomi was an interesting character, but it was a bit disappointing to find in the end she was just a bureaucrat, and not the all powerful being running Heaven as we had been led to believe. Her demise was not surprising, but her mission and motives were never clearly explained. The viewer after a while had to chalk it up to, “It’s something she’d always done.â€
As for Castiel, poor poor Castiel. He seemed to repeat a lot of his same mistakes, and his instincts disasterously served him wrong. Naomi’s mind control did acerbate their trust issues, leading Castiel to follow Metatron’s lead instead of hers, but his failure to listen to Dean was his ultimate demise…again. While it’s still unknown why Castiel didn’t listen to Dean, it does make a perfect setup for Castiel’s greatest challenge yet. Welcome to the humanity pool!
Episodes
Season eight delivered something that fell short in season seven, some great standout episodes. “Citizen Fang,†“LARP and The Real Girl, “Everybody Hates Hitler,†“Trial and Error,†“Goodbye Stranger,†and “Pac-Man Fever†were all very strong, and two more could be added to the series best list in “The Great Escapist†and “Sacrifice.†“Bitten,†while considered to be a love it or hate it experiment, did at best go for something extremely different and showed the willingness of this show to still take chances after eight seasons.
For every grand triumph though there was a hiccup. For example, it still doesn’t sit right with me Dean’s harsh treatment of Henry Winchester, in “As Time Goes By.†I felt that hostile resentment was pushed a bit too far and out of character. While I enjoyed the brotherly confrontation in “Southern Comfort†and thought it was an important tie in to the finale, the premise, a truth curse, was contrived and already done. We won’t even get into the horribly weak, and uninspiring dialogue and character development in episodes like “Heartache,†“Man’s Best Friend With Benefits,†“Remember The Titans,†and “Freaks and Geeks,†as well as the disregard to canon that offended many loyalists in “As Time Goes By,†“Taxi Driver,†and even a big slip-up involving the Grand Canyon by the great Edlund himself in “The Great Escapist†(I forgive you Ben! Please come back).
The largest disappointment of the season for me was “Taxi Driver,†because that was a key mythology story line in the trials (the second trial) and it was obvious the story was too ambitious for one episode, and perhaps the writers of the episode. When more time was spent analyzing which scenes had dissed various forms of canon (a grand majority) and that the return of Bobby Singer was more systematic than emotional (it was like Sam was picking up dry cleaning), a grand opportunity was clearly wasted, and a sore spot in an otherwise brilliant Trials arc.
Men of Letters
When Supernatural was first conceived, it was the idea of the great American road trip. The brothers living on the road, staying in cheap motel rooms, a car for a home, fighting demons and carrying on the family business. They eventually found a welcome hangout at Bobby’s house, but it wasn’t exactly home, or something they could call their own. Heck, they always slept on the couch or floor. Through the years, as the boys got older, you did have to wonder at some point, when would they get a home base?
It could be that the Men of Letters bunker was introduced as a way to reinforce this new “maturity†in Sam and Dean that Jeremy Carver often talked about before the season started. Putting down roots is something people do as they get older, and as we’ve seen through the years a lot of hunters had a home base, including Henry Winchester and Samuel Campbell. It also opens up the possibility having that normal life, something that both Sam and Dean talked about in “Trial and Error†as well as throughout the season.
The Men of Letters bunker is inspiring in so many ways. For one, it opens up another big part of the brothers’ history, what happened with the Winchester side of the family. Generations belonged to a secret society that chronicled hundreds of years of supernatural events, spells, and artifacts. They were a group that was well organized and had relationships with hunters and other societies. It explains why was Sam always more drawn to the intellectual side of hunting. It also explains the past history of bringing the Winchesters and Campbells together. It strengthened the point of cupid in “My Bloody Valentine†that these two boys had to be born, for they mattered to the scheme of the universe. The knowledge the bunker contains now gives Sam and Dean endless possibilities for the future (see curing demons).
The brothers now get a home that by birthright is theirs. That ties into John’s desire in season one for Dean to have a home. Dean has more embraced the bunker as a home than Sam, even getting excited over having his own room (“Memory foam. It remembers meâ€). But Sam’s starry eyed look at the library and all the information keeps him in geek heaven for a lifetime. This one place is a connection with a past that they never knew and now they can carry on as intended, as legacies. That does seem so much better than being on their own with nobody and being left to their own devices, doesn’t it?
Forget what the bunker does for the story though, just the mere set design alone it is a grand and crowning achievement in “Supernatural†history. Jerry Wanek and his crew have outdone themselves in creating what has been called this first ever permanent set for “Supernatural.†Considering their long line of achievements with the temporary sets through eight seasons, it’s about time they got to build a “permanent home†for themselves to put their magical touches.
The Flashbacks
My biggest complaint about season seven was the horrible characterization, especially of Sam and Dean. It seemed that often the writers didn’t get the characters. There were a few glaring issues with characterization this season, but there was much improvement overall, especially when Robbie Thompson, Ben Edlund, and Jeremy Carver ran with their gifts for emotional scenes. If there was a true failure, it was in the flashbacks that ran during the first part of the season.
Sam and Amelia on paper seemed like a great idea. However, one of the main weaknesses of the arc exposed one of the main weaknesses with Supernatural’s writing team in general. The writers aren’t always on the same page. When we had to learn about Sam and Amelia’s relationship, how two very broken and damaged people were able to come together in an intense time of need, it was done over many episodes via flashbacks. I really don’t think the writers were sharing notes.
The Sam and Amelia story in the end suffered from lack of development. There was a missing chemistry between the actors, but the jury is still out if the weak writing can be solely blamed for that, or just mostly. It wasn’t conceivable how they ended up together so easily. I get they were in pain, but we didn’t see how hard both were grieving before they found each other, especially Sam, and we didn’t see much grieving after they were together either. Little focus was given on their emotional place, aka the “show don’t tell†that this writing team often struggles with. The story with Amelia’s Dad visiting was a real waste because the arc hadn’t progressed well enough at that point to tell such a story. We needed more about the couple. That lack of development didn’t make their relationship interesting, nor did their romance end up being the epic tale of love and loss that the writers had hoped.
Dean and Benny didn’t get a real developed story either, but given the fact it wasn’t a romance, but brothers in arms fighting in a combat situation, it worked better. I think it helped that Jensen Ackles and Ty Olsson too had an amazing on screen chemistry where words weren’t as required. Their goodbye scene in “Taxi Driver†was easily one of the best and most emotional highlights of the season, and all that fell purely on the actors. The Purgatory scenes were framed far better, with the grayish tone and jagged action sequences, rather than the dreamy, too brightly lit and too ethereal Sam and Amelia moments.
The erratic pacing and inconsistencies of the stories told in the flashbacks in the end hurt what was supposed to be the big dramatic build up in “Torn and Frayed,†when Sam chose to stay with Dean rather than start that life with Amelia, while Dean parted ways with Benny. The deep misery Sam felt, it would have been far more powerful if the viewers had fallen in love with or even grown attached to this pairing. With Dean we could feel it a lot more, but it would have been nice if Sam could see that heartbreak too. After all that, we deserved to feel that horrible pain of sacrifice. Maybe if these relationships were put into the care solely of one or two writers, and exposed with more flashback scenes in less episodes, the intent would have been better delivered.
Fan S8 Complaints
There were two very common complaints I heard all season. First, the outrage that Sam didn’t look for Dean during their year apart. Yes, it took until the last scene of the season finale for the ramifications of that choice to have it’s impact, but because of that outrage, the progression of the brotherly relationship during season wasn’t noticed as well and the intent of the season not well embraced by some. Jeremy Carver taught fans a lesson of patience, telling us that we need to see the whole product before judging the parts. As much as I love Supernatural fans, patience isn’t one of our fortes.
However, was the disappointment with Sam’s choice in the end truly fan impatience, or that the choice itself was a wrong move? Sam thought he was doing the right thing this time, because looking before resulted in the wrong move (see season four). They promised each other they wouldn’t look, and when finally given the opportunity to have that normal life that always eluded him, how could Sam not take that? Especially given all he had been through since he started drinking demon blood. He was wrecked and didn’t know what else to do. I do agree, the flashbacks should have shown that better and if they had, maybe the outrage wouldn’t have lingered all through the season.
The second main complaint is that Dean didn’t have a story line, reverting back to being the care taker for Sam like in the early seasons. Considering Dean’s role consistently has been the solid rock, the glue that holds everything together, the one not infected by something supernatural, many were hoping for a new direction for Dean this season. The fact that Sam ended up taking on the trials was a big disappointment for some fans.
Dean had a significant emotional arc this season, and it was an arc I immensely enjoyed watching. I understood Dean’s struggle, especially after returning from Purgatory. I also understood his heavy handed comments to Sam about not looking for him and the deep obligation he felt toward Benny. He’s always felt loyalty to those that have stood by him and covered his back. That’s why he hasn’t given up on Castiel yet, despite the resentment over Castiel’s recent betrayals. He feels obligated to do everything he can for someone who’s saved him. Cutting Benny loose during his time of need tore Dean apart, and added to that massive mushroom cloud of guilt that Dean carries over him. So yes, Dean was bound to throw a little of that resentment Sam’s way, because it’s crushing him. It’s what siblings do, especially ones in close quarters.
Would it have been nice to see Dean take on the trials as well as Sam? Yes. But there is a reason that Sam had to experience the illness. It gave him the one thing he desperately desired his whole life, purification of the demon blood. It also sets up the arc for season nine. We can’t really say yet what the total impact of the trials was to both Sam and Dean, because the fallout still lies ahead. In that case, did Dean act appropriately and honorably? He did. He was there when Sam needed him the most, when he crashed both physically and emotionally. Dean’s role does have a huge impact on the natural order, and that means a lot in the “Supernatural†universe. There’s always a consequence for actions. Dean’s story is far from done. He truly is the guy that saves the world.
My overall grade for “Supernatural†season 8 is a B. Before we officially put season eight to bed and move forward toward season nine, what are your thoughts? What did you love and/or hate? What grade would you give the season? We still have 27 days left to reminisce, so this is your last chance to sound off! Let’s given season eight the send off it deserves.
You can order the “Supernatural†Season 8 DVD at Amazon.com, or buy it starting today at retail outlets like Best Buy, Wal-Mart, and Target.
(All types of comments are welcome in this discussion. Only comments of character bashing and disrespect toward other fans will be edited. No comments will be deleted unless they’re duplicates or spam).
Alice Jester is the founder, editor-in-chief, head writer, programmer, web designer, site administrator, marketer, and moderator for The Winchester Family Business. She is a 30 year IT applications and database expert with a penchant for creative and freelance writing in her spare (ha!!) time. That’s on top of being a wife, mother of two active kids, and four loving (aka needy) pets.
My main problem with Purgatory was that it was too boring. I know budget is an issue, but it would have been nice to get some variety in monsters (I wanted to see those gorilla-wolves, dammit!), instead of just vampires and the boring human looking leviathans.
It also would have been nice if they could have had the flashbacks leading up to one full episode in Purgatory before Castiel’s return. But again budget.
Alice, you brought up so many things I loved about this season. I love good brother angst. Don’t get me wrong I do love when they are lighthearted and joking with one another-which they did more season 7-but I totally adore a good angst scene too. So I fine with all the tension in and of itself. Yeah I wanted to knock both of them up side their heads at different points in the season, usually due to their lack of communication skills, but I was enjoying the ride. I even liked that they brought up some of the past crap to deal with it more. And thought the payoff in Sacrifice for a lot stuff was an excellent start (though I would like them to go a little further) for all the Southern Comfort stuff. And I did think that was a HUGE improvement over that aspect of last year when a good portion of the time they felt more like friendly coworkers.
I really hate to pick on an actress but I’m still not sure it was completely the writers fault. I just think she wasn’t a good fit. A little bitchy at first is fine, I’ve loved a lot of bitchy characters, but their needs to be a lot of humor or strength of character or something to temper it, and I don’t think she pulled it off. What I do blame the writers for, is that we never saw her taking care of Sam or comforting him or being their for him in anyway. We heard about her pain, her grief but we don’t know this chick or care about her soap opera life yet. The fastest way to get the audience to connect with her is to show her caring for Sam (and given her limited scenes, although they FELT incredibly long, faster would be better). NOT to show us Sam caring for her. We already love Sam so what is the audience gaining by showing us Sam being supportive? Plus we still don’t know what he ever saw it her. Maybe the birthday cake was supposed to do that but if so -fail.
I thought what we saw of Purgatory worked really well, though the conclusion felt rushed and anticlimatic. But I loved the rest a lot and Benny is a nice addition. I also loved that it had Dean backing off the all monsters are evil kick he was on last year. That was an issue for me from S7. As was he despondency and it corrected that too. So win!
I would have preferred Dean took part in the trials too but once they started with the purification stuff I could see where they were going with that so it worked for me. And it looks like this season he’ll be more directly involved and I’m happy about that.
Yeah the season had it’s rough episodes, my list would include Bitten(still don’t hate it but didn’t connect with any of the kids-I found them all annoying) and the trashing of canon in Taxi Driver really pissed me off but I still really kind of loved other parts of that episode. The other weaker episodes didn’t really bother me, because they did have bright spots too. Like that first scene with Sam and the ‘dog’ in BFWB.
In fact, I only hated the one thing[i](the only thing I’ve ever actually hated on SPN, I think-though the Amelia storyline comes close). [/i]And it wasn’t so much that that Sam didn’t look, but that they never REALLY told us why he would do something so out of character. And despite all the things I loved about the season, because the the show is “about the brothers stupid”, because for me the entire show is built around this incredible connection, it has completely ruined the season for me (it even temporarily made the entire series too depressing to watch-though I’ve now started a rewatch and I’m up to S3). I’ve read all the theories and do believe that he likely had some sort of breakdown. But the fact that they’ve never bothered to show something so crucial to the show just makes me feel that they don’t get that it’s the about the brothers stupid. I grant you that is likely an overreaction but that is how I feel when I hear them talk about that storyline. That they need something to cause contention between them and wanted to do something different, so they cavalierly decided to not have him look without giving any explanation and then said -ACCEPT IT. And now, I’m a whiny bad fan because I find that impossible.
But I thought the preview looked good and I keep praying nappi815 is right that they are going to explain it this year. If not they are not going to ever explain it then my hope is they just don’t really mentioned it again EVER. And I’ll just never rewatch S8 and pretend it doesn’t exist. (Which I will hate because Edlund and Thompson had an amazing year but it’s better than it tainting all the other seasons). That’s another thing about it though not only dId they not fix it -THEY KEPT MENTIONING IT! AARGH! So it makes it almost impossible to watch most of episodes because it’s referenced in someway in most of the them.
Sorry, if that went a little ranty. I did try to balance out what I loved with the one thing I hated though.
I still don’t see how “Taxi Driver” trashed canon. I’m not saying the episode isn’t flawed, because it is, but it’s flawed because they try to pack so much story in such short amount of time.
How Sam got into Hell so easy is explained, he went through a backdoor. It’s not a perfect explanation, but it is satisfactory. It just needed to be more of a journey.
As for Ajay, you just have to look what the show has shown us about reapers and what they can do, and the nature of their jobs.
1. How can Ajay be seen?
If you remember in season 2 Tessa says reapers can alter perception, which would include being able to be seen. Take the reaper from season 1, he was invisible to everyone but the person about to die.
2. Ajay’s death.
Simply put, reapers have physical bodies as seen in seasons 2 & 4. First Tessa being possessed by Azazel, and second Alastair being able to physically handle and kill a reaper. If they didn’t have physical bodies how either of those incidents have happened?
3. Rogue reapers
Considering the consequences to the natural order comes from a soul not being reaped when it is supposed to, rather than it’s final destination, I don’t see why Death would ultimately care. I mean the spirit gets the choice to move on or stay, plus if Death really cared about the destination of a soul, he probably would have taken Adam out of the Cage, seeing as how he probably doesn’t deserve to be trapped in Hell.
Thanks so much Alice. I agree that the lack of chemistry between Sam & Amelia killed that storyline. Compare that to the instant chemistry Dean & Benny had. I think the writers wanted a stronger parallel between the two flashback story lines. Also I see where they were going with the dream like quality of Sam’s flashbacks compared to the black & white quality of Purgatory. I think the Purgatory scenes worked & Sam’s flashbacks fell far short.
I also wish Sam had uttered a couple sentences to Amelia about how broken he is without Dean. Sure, we all know that but I think that would have eased some of the complaints about this season.
Finally, I could forgive Carver for every real or imagined writing transgression after Dean’s speech in Sacrifice. I consider that enough extra credit to raise the overall grade to an A. 🙂
Nice article Alice! It’s good to go back and see the season as a whole, and season 8 does remind me of seasons 4 and 5 plotting wise; those two seasons as well were nail bitters with lots of “what the hell is going on!” as things unfolded with the whole picture not really clear until all of the pieces were in place. In general, I really like that approach especially for a mythology driven show and felt season 8 did well in that respect; not quite to season 4 and 5 level, but well done overall, maybe more of a B+ than a B, especially in light of season 7’s C- grade.
I was just thinking about how Sam’s flashbacks compared to Dean’s montage at the start of season 6 in showing their respective states of mind and must agree that the writers dropped the ball in season 8 as far as Sam’s story was concerned. Dean’s montage in Exile on Main Street was far superior in structure and impact than all of Sam’s flashbacks. I felt like we got much greater insight into Dean’s state of mind in that one small section of film than all of Sam’s flashbacks combined. It clearly showed how Dean had moved on in a way, was living his life in normalville, working on the car, connecting with Ben, loving with Lisa and yet still totally disconnected, grief stricken and unhappy. It was clear that he missed Sam and because of that wasn’t really IN the life that he was living and all this information was displayed in about 6 minutes of film and without one line of dialogue; pretty masterful really. I think you hit the nail on the head in the problem with the flashbacks; we didn’t need to see Sam become a caretaker or show sympathy for someone else’s loss, we needed to see that he missed Dean and I wanted to see Amelia comfort Sam about Dean’s loss not Sam comforting Amelia about Don’s loss; who gives a shit about Don, we saw him twice and he had two lines of dialog. The flashbacks were all about Amelia and Don, and if this was some kind of metaphor to then be applied to Sam somehow, it didn’t work. I only care about Amelia in so far as what I know about her reflects on Sam, and she didn’t reflect on Sam, he reflected on her, which was the wrong way to go. They could have given us so much more information in much less time had they gone the same route with Sam that they had gone with Dean in season 6. A deliberately drawn parallel would have been really nice, this show is always doing that why not here?
I loved purgatory though and don’t agree with Mick in #1 above that it was boring… (sorry Mick!) I thought it was thrilling and would have loved to have seen more of it’s gritty rawness. I realize it would have been epic to have great CGI monsters and endless fight scenes, but come on, we all know the limitations, this show has never done that ever, so why expect it now? Purgatory fell short for me in the lack of ramifications for Dean in the first half of the season especially. More PTSD!Dean would not have gone amiss IMO, and actually would have better explained why he was so raw, so violent and so angry all the time. I could have better dealt with Dean’s grudge holding and harsh treatment of Sam if they had driven the point home more that Dean’s reaction was a combination of how hurt he was by Sam’s choices coupled with how raw and violent he was after coming back from Purgatory. In a weird way it might have worked better if Dean had been even more harsh with Sam and had that harshness have a more significant meaning that had nothing to do with Sam. It also would have helped explain why Dean felt the need to keep Benny a secret. That is the one aspect of the plot that I don’t feel was adequately explained as far as Dean was concerned; Benny was this great and awful secret, but I am not sure why; keeping Benny a secret didn’t make any sense. But if the situation in purgatory had driven Dean to keep secrets and be paranoid then I could have bought his responses more easily.
Oops too long…. see part 2!
And I also agree with Kelly (Hi Kelly, look we agree again!) that the “not looking” issue was a major buzz kill. I understand where it went now, and don’t even mind that this is where they choose to take the story (at least I am learning to live with it) but a little more info on Sam’s state of mind that DEAN GETS TO HEAR would not go amiss. One of the things that this show often does is not to have an issue resolved with the character that it’s supposed to be resolved with: case(s) in point. Castiel’s apology to Sam for breaking his wall; Cas said it, but Sam was comatose and couldn’t hear his apology or understand it. Dean’s admitting that sending that text was wrong, only he admitted it to Charlie and not to Sam. Sam admitting to Chuck that he could’t stop drinking demon blood and that he was afraid, but not telling that to Dean who is the one person who REALLY needed to hear that. Sam needs a chance to flesh out what was going on with him that drove him to not look and he needs to say it TO DEAN so that Dean can see that it wasn’t because Sam didn’t care about him or didn’t miss him. I think Dean sees that now because of Sam’s desperation with the third trial, but the main issue still needs some fleshing out. The ‘not looking’ debacle didn’t ruin the season for me the way it has for some (I feel your pain Kelly!) but it’s still a sore point that lacks detail that allows us to understand and even forgive Sam for his choice; how can we expect Dean to forgive Sam when we don’t understand his choices due to a lack of information? If he had a breakdown, fine, show it and not in subtle and often unsatisfactory ways through another character either. Perhaps a montage of Sam blowing up the Dick Roman building would suffice? We know through that suicidal jumper in Hunter Heroici that he did so, why not show it? They could even get away with showing us that now two whole years after the fact… we’ve seen from Exile on Main Street that we only need about 6 minutes of film to flesh out an entire year of back story; its not much to ask to gain a little insight into one of the main characters if you ask me.
I’m currently re-watching S8 as it is airing on British telly so I’ve been watching and wondering if my original opinion of the season – it’s my least favourite of all seasons so far – would in fact change. We just saw Pac Man fever here and so far, no, it is still bottom of the seasons rankings for me. 🙁 After the awesomeness of Sacrifice I really wanted to love the season better but it has not been the case.
Most of all it still boils down to the Sam not looking for Dean and the Amelia storylines. I buy into the theory that Sam didn’t/couldn’t look because he had a breakdown but I wanted to see this on my telly screen. I wanted to see him grieving, see him broken. Before S8 I had been looking forward to the Amelia character as I had been expecting her to be the way we’d get some insight into Sam’s heart and mind after Dean had disappeared. Like others have said I wanted to see Amelia comforting Sam, listening to him talking about Dean. I wasn’t at all interested in Amelia and Don. For me, much more focus was needed on Sam’s emotional place. I’m hoping that in S9 the brothers talk more about this issue.
Apart from the whole Sam not looking for Dean issue there were quite a few episodes that also just didn’t interest me that much – Heartache, Bitten, Blood Brother, MBFWB, that Prometheus one, Freaks And Geeks. Episodes like Southern Comfort and Citizen Fang ripped me to shreds but at least they didn’t bore me. That’s a big reason why S8 was at the bottom of the rankings for me, because so many episodes just didn’t grab my interest.
On the positive side there was stuff I loved a lot. [i]That [/i]scene in Sacrifice is, possibly, my most favourite scene in the entire series (okay, maybe it’s joint top with the boys’ reunion with John in Shadow). I loved The Great Escapist, As Time Goes By, Trial and Error. Loved all the brotherly moments, even the agonisingly painful ones. Adored the brotherly hugs. Loved Kevin, Crowley and Garth. Love the whole MOL storyline and can’t wait to see how that develops next season. The sneak peek for S9 was awesome so I’m hoping for great things next year. One scene in particular had me flailing like crazy. 😆 Back to S8 I, loved the Trials storyline too and all the Hurt!Sam and Protective!Dean it gave us.
Ooohhh…*lightbulb moment*… writing about the Hurt!Sam and Protective!Dean just now makes me think I should revise my rankings/opinion. I adore Hurt!Sam and Protective Big Brother!Dean and there was lots of that in S8. Yup, S8 is going up my rankings list. Not sure where it will end up but it’s not at the bottom anymore. 😆
Hi Gwen, FYI…there is an awesome ‘rank the seasons’ article on here somewhere… with everyone describing their rankings and detailing what worked for them and what didn’t, it’s a really interesting read…BTW, I love Hurt!Sam and Protective!AngstDean too… it’s my favorite flavor of Winchester along with Scary Calculating!Sam and BAMF!Dean 😆
Hi [b]E[/b]. That article is pretty awesome. And it already has my rankings list up there… I love making lists, especially when it involves making lists about The Winchesters. I pounced on that article as soon as it came out. 😀 I’m planning on heading there later tonight once my kids are in bed to spend time re-arranging my list. 😆
Hurt!Sam and Protective!Dean are my very very favourite flavours of Winchester. I do love me some Badass!Dean too and all sorts of other flavours of Sam – Hallucinating, Drunk, Possessed, Lucifer, Soulless and, especially after S8 – Sick!Sam. Although I feel so bad for liking Sick!Sam so much. 😛
E, the world has right itself, because we once more agree. The way it was meant to be. 😀 I did actually agree with almost every single word. I kept wondering where’s the montage? Where’s the first few months of Sam’s year. They just skipped it. I keep hearing “Bob Singer” from the French Mistake in my head, “But that was the good part.” The Exile montage was fabulous. It had me tearing up a little. It took practically no time and it perfectly encapsulated Dean’s family life while showing how much pain he was still carrying. Thank you Sera Gamble.
And AMEN to the fact that they need to tell each other things. Sometimes I understand for story purposes but other times it just completely frustrating. Well it’s always frustrating but sometimes in ONLY frustrating. I’m telling you they need to work on their communication skills. Which actually goes for Dean not telling Sam about Benny. I didn’t really get that either. You’re right it would have made much more sense if they showed him in battle mode longer. And would have made is treatment of Kevin more understandable too. That still bugs me too.
Great article, you hit on so many points that were bouncing around in my head. I agree, the Sam flashbacks were not done as well as Dean flashbacks tp Purgatory. The lighting hurt my eyes, the chemistry betweens the characters was flat (althought I blame this one on the fact that we only got to see what the writers wanted us to see, I think it may have worked if they showed more of them actually falling for each other not “oh you’re hurting too” next flashback they were talking about the fact that they just had sex. Umm…how did you get from thinking Sam was creepy to sleeping with him??) Anyway! Dean’s flashbacks were AMAZING, I loved the way they were shot, I loved where they were shot and Misha, Jensen and Ty had awesome chemistry. I would have loved to have seen more of what went on in Purgatory, but they showed enough to make me love it, to make me understand where Dean was coming from. So all in all, I didn’t mind the flashbacks, the problem for me this season was how disconnected it was. The first half was all about the flashbacks, the anger and the secrets. Once we got to LATRG it seemed like a new season! The boys gave up their other relationships, then in As Time Goes By, they meet Henry (oh, I wish we had more Henry, I really liked him!) and the next the boys are introduced to the Men of Letters and the start of the trials. This half of this season was incredible. There was a couple episodes (obviously MOTW episodes) that didn’t fit right but I understand we can’t have all myth arc episodes. But really the only episode that I didn’t like was Bitten…It seemed like a different show.
i get the human story for sam. it has been insinutated throughout the season that sam didn’t just not look for dean, but he in fact broke. just a quick recap of everything sam had been through starting with season 5…extreme guilt for killing lilith. jumping in the pit & spending over a century as michael & lucifer’s batting post; coming out souless & then upon his soul’s return, having to deal with the guilt of all souless sam had done, in addition of course to sam’s hell memories; sam’s broken psyche when cas broke his wall & his strength coming back from that being dean & him not wanting to leave him alone; sam’s hellucinations driving him to the brink of death, cas being the only reason he’s alive; shock therapy as an added bonus; loss of bobby included in there. the only thing that kept sam going was dean. dean was his touchstone. so when sam witnesses dean exploding in a sea of dick along with cas, then crowley takes kevin & insinutates that dean is dead & sam is truly alone..is it so far a stretch to see where sam reached his emotional limit? there was noone to pull him back from that. low & behold, sam is human after all. he’s not the superhuman he’s often been portrayed as being. there is something that can phase him, it’s the loss of dean. i’m not just going off what i know in my heart to be so, i’m going off show itself. i have seen examples throughout s8 hinting at us the audience, that sam did indeed break. here we go:
blood brother-sam tells amelia that he lost his brother. his whole world imploded & he ran.
southern comfort-during dean’s rant, he tells garth that he(sam) left him in purgatory in which garth replies “i don’t know dean, i wasn’t there, but something terrible must’ve happened”.
alsok-sam talks to dean about survivor’s guilt
hunter heroici-sam’s talk of running from reality.
citizen fang-sam tell ameila “you saved me”
goodbye stranger-meg questions sam’s state of mind after the whole story about his year. “you hit a dog & stopped, why?”
taxi driver- bobby flat out tells sam that both he & dean have been off the rails since he’s been gone.
sacrifice- sam’s speeching about failing dean. that he couldn’t do it again, indicating that sam just didn’t , but couldn’t look for dean yet failing his brother again.
so there it is. sam’s human story. i must say, i thought it was an awesome one. i’m so glad to finally see after all these years that sam does have a breaking point, and it’s his brother and the love he has for him. now for the complaint that it was all tell and no show, i think i get it. my take on it is this. but first let me put this out there. i was pissed off at dean for half of s8. i really wanted to punch him in the nose. i mean, here we are in the premiere & they are sitting in the hotel having that talk we’ve been wanting to see. or so i thought. here i am excited, dean’s going to do it. he’s so pissed that sam didn’t look he’s bound to ask the question we are all waiting for. “why didn’t you look sam? what happened to you? what happened that night? but what did we get instead? we got this….”what would make sam winchester give up hunting? was there a girl? are u kidding me? that’s what dean asks. that’s the conclusion he comes to. after a lifetime of sam being there for dean. standing by him, believing in him when he didn’t believe in himself, putting himself back together after cas breaks his wall, just so dean doesn’t end up alone. after everything, dean thinks so little of sam that he would think sam would leave him in purgatory because of a girl. i have never been so angry at dean & i knew by sam’s response, that there was & wasn’t & did he have any other questions, the shortness & anger in that response, i knew he was as hurt as i felt that dean would assume such a thing. that my friends is what started it all. oh i was angry. i understood sam’s pained reaction. i understood how the lack of communication & misperception of ea. other snowballed from that moment.
my perception of dean was skewed for the entire first half of the season, until the finale enabled me to rewatch the first half again, with much clearer eyes. i paid attention so carefully the second time around. first off i concluded that it wasn’t that dean thought so little of sam, as sam perceived, it’s that dean thinks that little of himself. there’s that lack of self worth again. the misperception these boys had simply continued throughout the season.
now in regards to benny. first off, benny was always meant to be dean’s dirty little secret, of that i’m quite sure. there was no reason for dean not to tell sam about benny except for one, dean didn’t trust him. not sam. dean didn’t trust benny & he didn’t trust in himself that he did the right thing by letting benny out. but a deal was a deal and a friendship was formed. but earth & purgatory are two very different places. let’s face it. dean knew from the start that benny needed him to get out. he knew he can trust him in purgatory, because benny needed dean alive. outside of purgatory is a whole new ballgame & dean didn’t trust benny. i know this because every single call dean got from benny started with a question as to what was wrong. upon rewatch, like it or not, dean was always tense when it came to benny. he was always waiting for the other shoe to drop. benny really was dean’s “amy”. dean never was going to tell sam. he was going to keep tabs & if benny screwed up, dean would take care of it. but dean killing amy, that put a wrench in his outlook. dean recognized his own hypocrisy as was illustrated in the beginning of sc when sam brought up amy & dean’s comeback was well people change. here’s something else that i noticed on rewatch, dean only started to build benny up to sam when sam found out about him. he portrayed benny as the exception to the monster rule, when we all know that there is no exception to the monster rule, even lenore reverted back. it’s inevitable. but in sc dean in that rant built benny up, but it’s my strong opinion that he was trying to convince himself more than sam. dean is the one who really had to believe it, because he’s the one who most likely went against every instinct by letting benny out. but a deal is a deal. dean felt he owed benny. but as much as he owed him, he never really trusted him. that’s why he kept him a secret in the first place. but benny was important to dean. i get why. the speech in sacrifice wouldn’t have meant anything if benny was just another monster. benny’s importance showed sam his own importance to his brother. benny had to matter so sam can see how he mattered more.
something else i realized about dean that i didn’t notice before until rewatching. dean’s rant in sc. his list of sam’s sins were the very thing he had done as well. the demon blood..well dean put an abomination inside of him too. not telling him about being with samuel(even though that’s not sam’s fault), dean was lying about benny. he left him in purgatory to die. well, according to dean’s speech to cas in alsok, dean has, this entire time, been living with the notion that he left cas behind to die. even though he tried to get him out, he didn’t. he failed. he left him behind, kind of like how he accused sam of doing to him. that leads me to conclude that dean’s anger at sam may have been more about his anger at himself. here’s what i noticed, when dean was told the truth by cas, he no longer accused sam of leaving him in purgatory to die. he didn’t mention purgatory again until sacrifice & that was just as a list of sam’s sins that he could confess about. sins against him as sam saw it, big mistakes sam has made as dean saw it.
now back to sam. it’s always been pretty clear to me that amelia was never about love. it was about loss. his loss. i always thought of her as an island. and sam, well he was so broken that he ran from his real life and pain and sought refuge on this island. but it wasn’t his reality. he knew that before dean came back, even before don. but sam needed a vacation. a much needed vacation from the devastation that was his life and he took one. he found this island of escape(amelia) & healed. on rewatch, all the comments about normal that dean took as sam wanting to leave him, wasn’t the case at all.
sam had to live with the shame of not being able do anything more than run. he had to live with the mistake of believing his brother died. he had to bear dean’s disappointment and his belief that dean saw sam as nothing but a failure. hences sam’s comment to dean in heartache about dean being better off on his own. it had nothing to do with wanting normal. sacrifice proves that.
sam’s need to do the trials was the only way he can atone for failing his brother. dean’s rant in sc only leads sam to believe that i’m sorry isn’t enough. he had apologized for all those crimes dean accused him of, but still dean holds them against him, or so it seemed at the time. like i said, upon rewatch, i think it was more about dean’s own crimes not sam’s.
so in the second half of the season, we have both boys trying to atone to ea. other. what a pair. oh how i do love them.
the second time around, i totally got carver and what he meant by this season being about “perception”. it wasn’t just about our perception. it was about how the boys perceived, or in this case misperceived ea. other. sam felt that he came in third in dean’s eyes. he felt that dean saw him as nothing but a disappointment & a failure. dean, who has a tendency to lack any self worth, didn’t trust that his brother wouldn’t judge him harshly for purgatory or what he did there to survive & he wouldn’t begrudge him his friendship with benny had dean just trusted sam enough to confide in him. dean did trust sam, he didn’t trust benny or himself in making the right decision. his lack of worth in himself had him conclude that sam didn’t look for him because of a girl instead of seeing the truth..that sam’s inability to look had nothing to do with normal or girls or organic fruit and had everything to do with losing the one person who meant more to him than anyone’s ever had. the one person, he couldn’t deal with losing. that’s dean.
i’ve noticed that the main complaint regarding sam is that we didn’t get to see the grief in any of the flashbacks & i had that same complaint on first watch. but then on second watch i got to thinking about perception, and i think i understand what carver was doing. if it’s as i believe then i think carver is indeed a brilliant mind. firstly i can’t help but wonder after just completing s6 & starting s7, if gamble set up s8. carver’s s8 flowed off of the last two seasons, i felt as though they were in cahoots.
anyway about sam’s silence & seeming lack of pov: first off, carver talks of perception, but never once did carver make sam out as doing anything wrong. so many have put the blame on carver & the writers, but it’s not his fault if people perceive things the way they do. he even stated in an article that just because someone doesn’t act the way they are expected to, doesn’t mean they acted the wrong way. he actually defended sam, not condemned him. dean’s lack of self worth in himself added to his guilt about leaving cas behind had him conclude that sam didn’t look for him because of a girl instead of seeing the truth. that sam didn’t/couldn’t look because of dean himself. dean’s misguided pov was adopted by a lot of the fandom. dean saw it this way, so it must be so. just because dean’s pov is what was focused on, that doesn’t make it correct. carver & the writers never proclaimed that dean was right.
but this was the pov that had been the focus because it was the only one we were seemingly given. sam was silent most of the time. we were given hints throughout the season instead of just simply given a scene in which we can see what happened with sam. and looking back now, i’m glad we didn’t get that scene and i think i understand why.
we were just as in the dark about what truly happened with sam as dean was. i mean we were given clues, but we had no visual. so basically, we had to imagine what really went down based on the hints given. dean didn’t get the hints we did, so he was basically blind, left to stew in his misperception of sam. which was the goal of the writers. don’t you think the writer’s know that they were pretty onesided on the pov standpoint? of course they were. it was deliberate on their part & not because they are biased, but because it made the story’s outcome that much more emotional. think about it, if we had gotten to see in a flashback what really happened that night or even if we got to see the actual grief, then we would see what we already know in our hearts. it’s like getting a spoiler. we would see it, dean wouldn’t. . we would then be frustrated because we know and dean doesn’t. either way, the writer’s lose. but this way…getting the hints/clues throughout the season, easing our minds in such a way to know that it had to be something, but no allowing us to see it for ourselves….we got to feel the same way dean got to feel in the finale. we were right there with him, finding out at the same time. what an emotional and impactful finale it was. we’re all still talking about it. we all seem to agree that it was one of the best finales ever. so many of us seem to be able to view the show with different eyes now that we have the same clarity dean has, as well as sam. if we had gotten a glimpse sam’s true state of mind, if we had been spoiled, the finale wouldn’t have nearly had the same emotional impact. i think carver is brilliant for how he played it out.
let’s not forget that this was simply part 2 of what will likely be a three part eppy. there is no reason not to believe that we will get answers to all the unanswered questions from the first half of the season. i still think someone put riot in front of sam. i still think someone told benny about dean in order to protect dean while in purgatory. i just can’t shake the coincidence of dean’s exit from purgatory coming at the same time, sam’s mentally able to get back to his real life.
sorry for the length. i do go on so.
[quote]I loved purgatory though and don’t agree with Mick in #1 above that it was boring… (sorry Mick!) I thought it was thrilling and would have loved to have seen more of it’s gritty rawness. I realize it would have been epic to have great CGI monsters and endless fight scenes, but come on, we all know the limitations, this show has never done that ever, so why expect it now? [/quote]
It really didn’t need to epic or have great CGI monsters, just a little more variety and monster make-up. Like an odd wendigo here or a rawhead there or a wraith or siren, something not human looking. We did get Dean torturing a rugaru, but that wasn’t enough for me.
Though they should have put a little more effort into realizing the leviathans in Purgatory. They should have gotten a tall and lanky Doug Jones type or even just a really big/tall stunt guy; lose the suits, strategically place some black goo on the body, and do a little paint job and maybe some arm/hand prosthetics. That probably wouldn’t have cost that much and would have been a lot more interesting to see.
I’d agree with a B Alice! It was much better than S7 and when the episodes were great they really soared. I wasn’t among those who were totally upset Sam didn’t look for Dean, perturbed yes, but always felt if he thought he had a way to do it he would have. Like Crowley said at the end of S7 he was “well and truly alone” and he’d almost killed himself trying to find a way to get Dean out after S3 and it ended up being Cas who got Dean out of Hell. And sometimes people are just dead and there isn’t anything you can do even on SPN and if Dean was dead would he have wanted Sam to kill himself trying to find a way? Probably not … but Dean wasn’t dead and he got himself out with some help from Benny and Cas and Sam seemed to feel really guilty about that. That whole thing about Dean going to another angel or vampire in Sacrifice showed how much Sam felt guilty about not looking after Dean came back. I’m sure he carried that guilt with him the whole time! I think that statement had less to do about Cas or Benny it more about his own insecurities. Yeah, Dean had a right to be upset and Bobby had a right to ream him for it but given his circumstances what should he have done? I’m hoping next season they forgive and forget because they have bigger fish to fry and each other backs so just let it lie.
I’d give the season a B+. Some weak MOTW episodes, particularly in the second half of the season. The MOL, and to a lesser degree the continuation/expansion of the Tablets from S7, were welcome additions and will help drive the story/mytharc for the coming seasons. Other than the Sam/Amelia flashbacks which IMO were poorly written, I enjoyed the first half of the season, particularly Dean’s Purgatory flashbacks. I kind of liked Bitten and admire the writers/producers/showrunner for taking a chance on an episode like that, especially with a show that was in it’s 8th season. Other than some of the weaker MOTW episodes, my only major complaint about the second half of the season was Taxi Driver – they tried to cram too much in one episode, making Sam’s going to Purgatory and Hell look too easy. And, Dean’s warp speed drive from Missouri to Maine was more amazing that Sam’s drive from Louisiana to Kermit, TX in Citizen Fang.
The Sam not looking for Dean thing has been a great bone of contention for many and has been discussed a lot this season; count me among the minority that was okay with it – given everything that happened since 5.22 Lucifer Rising, it was understandable. Sam said on a couple of occasions that he lost his brother – I took that to mean he thought Dean was dead. Now whether Sam was was just telling himself to justify not looking is open to interpretation. Not saying it was the right decision but, given everything that happened, as Meg said in Goodybye Stranger, “I kind of get it”.
I would give the overall season a B+. I’m rewatching my DVDs now and I must say I’m enjoying some of the episodes more now than I did at the beginning. As with most fans, I did not care for the whole Amelia storyline. First off, no disrespect to the actress, but I don’t think that was a great casting choice. There was no chemistry between her and Sam. And you’re absolutely right Alice, we didn’t get to see the development of how they really ended up together. It’s too bad, I’m sure it sounded great on paper. 🙂
I love the Purgatory scenes though, I just wished we had seen more, but I guess time and budget restraints are to blame for that. As badly as Amelia was matched to Sam, that’s as good as Benny was to Dean. Man alive, I really loved that relationship and I’m hoping to see Benny again. That was great casting IMO.
Men of Letters bunker, oh how I love thee! What a treasure trove of information Sam now has at his fingertips, and Dean finally has his own room! Bless his little heart. 🙄
[quote]They eventually found a welcome hangout at Bobby’s house, but it wasn’t exactly home, or something they could call their own. Heck, they always slept on the couch or floor.[/quote] I always wondered about that. Such a big house, you’d think he would of had a guest room or two. Or maybe every room in his house was taken up with books and weapons! 😆
But most of all, I really loved season 8 because it brought some real maturity to the Winchester brothers and I think they are now back on an even keel with each other. So here’s hoping that season nine will be even better so we can give it a A grade at the end. 😉
i really had no problem with sam and amelia. a little boring but i totally got the intent. it’s funny how so many compare it to the montage of dean with lisa. at first i did the very same thing. sam didn’t love this girl. look at the love between lisa and dean & then watch sam’s flashbacks…no chemistry at all. then i realized. maybe it wasn’t an error in casting. maybe it was just the way it was supposed to be, because sam and amelia were not about love at all.
the difference between sam and dean is that, when sam jumped in the pit, he sent dean to someone sam knew dean already loved. dean wasn’t running away from anything, he was heading towards something. a family. people who loved him. people who knew who he was and accepted him for it. sam knew this. sending dean to lisa was probably the one thing that sam found peace in.
sam on the other hand wasn’t running/heading towards something. he was running away. he said it in quite a few eppies…he ran. in hunter heroici he gave a personal speech in which he tells fred, that he cannot run from reality because it’ll inevitably destroy you. sam was running from grief, guilt, loss, despair. it was random luck or so we are meant to think that sam hit the dog. but riot gave sam focus. sam could temporarily focus on something other than his pain. then he bumps into amelia again in which he instantly recognizes the symptoms of loss. he gravitates towards her because here is someone he can help. he can forget about his loss & concentrate on helping her. that’s why his flashbacks were all told from her pov. he didn’t want to deal with his loss & grief. he didn’t want to talk about his loss & pain. at most he mentioned dean’s name and that was it. it was too painful for him to talk about or even think about. and that is in character with sam, cuz he acted the same way with ruby. it is in character for sam to swallow his pain, keep it inside and not share it with anyone & put his focus on another’s pain. that’s canon. sam’s relationship with amelia made perfect sense to me. he needed to focus on someone broken. he needed to help someone. to save them. it wasn’t about sam wanting consolation. it was about his need to help. it was the only way for him to get through the days.
there are all kinds of love. sam may have loved amelia for allowing him to help her. he loved her for the normalcy he got to experience while with her. he probably loved her for allowing him to live even temporarily without the weight of the world on his shoulder, but mostly i think he loved her for providing him escape. but sam isn’t in love with her. there was no sign of him being in love with her. i believe it was deliberate. because this wasn’t a story about sam and the love of his life, this was the story of sam losing the love of his life, and it wasn’t amelia. it was dean.
anyway that’s the way i saw it.
Once again Nappi815, I am in total agreement with you. And, yes, that should scare you. 🙂
Nappi815 d’accord!!! 😆
I had the same thoughts, but writing them down in english would have been a hell of job for me.
I love reading your posts, cause you bring it to the point, that life and SPN is not simply black & white.
Therefore I say danke schön!
greetz from Berlin
Season 8 returned my hope. Season 7 was an unorganized disaster.
Season 8 had flaws, but in the second half it exploded with possibilities.
The issue with season 8 is definately that Sam never looked. It could have been the simplest thing to show him search and have all signs point to Dean being dead. Then Sam could have figured his bro was in heaven and then moved on.
Amelia was written VERY badly. Evey time I visit the vet I think of her. Vets are so compassionate and amazing. Amelia was no vet. Her lines were so shallow as were Sam’s. I felt pain listening to Jared be that crappy an actor, because he has shown himself to be very skilled (think of him as demon possessed in season 2), but those lines were impossible to make right.
There was so much time to make Amelia and Sam believeable (I felt for the kids in Bitten and only knew them less than 40 minutes) but no writer did more than write pedestrian and amateur lines.
Thankfully, there was the men of letters. This new development is so amazing, it alone jumped up my rating of season 8.
Season 8 was not a good season for me.
It was bad as it gave insight into Sam into the last minutes of s08.Which was the absolute worst thing they could have done.I am happy that the trials were done by Sam and only Sam as we got insight into Dean and not Sam’s initial minutes after s07.
The repopulation of the supernatural scene by Dean sympathetic or Sam indifferent characters has me unsatisfied.
Killing of Naomi was bad I liked her,But then again I had liked Jo,Bella from the beginning but female characters are normally liked by people on their death (majority or vocal ) who hate them when alive,
Flashbacks –Dean’s were good.Sam’s left out the important parts.
Amelia was ok, not good or bad but it would have been better if she was fleshed out more.
It was not revealed who that mysterious figure was outside Amelia’s home on the show.If it was revealed in a con or in an interview..I don’t care.
My complaint was not that Sam did not “look” (whatever that meant ) It was smart of him but was they had to wait till the end of the season to show ..no sorry…tell us why.They could have kept the initial days after season 7 secret from Dean but why they kept it a secret from us god knows.
They could have kept the initial days after season 7 secret from Dean but why they kept it a secret from us god knows.[/quote]
The way I see it, Carver seemed to be trying to teach us a lesson along with Sam & Dean. Seems to me “misperception” was the whole point. He also seemed to try to explain to us that the boys life, hell life in general isn’t all as black and white and easy as it seems. in my post i’ve given example from show itself in numerous episodes where we the audience have been told that something was indeed wrong with sam & it was his inability to handle the devastation of losing dean that had him break. but even being told in like 6 different eppys that there was more to sam than “not looking” …people still only see what they want to see. sam didn’t look. and we got hints. carver did throw us a bone. dean didn’t have that luxury. so his misperception continued throughout the entire season, and so it seems the fans as well. much like sam’s misperception of dean had gone on the entire season. his belief that benny came first. ( sam’s lost time isn’t the only thing they held out on showing us..see taxi driver unaired scene. a little bit of info very important to that was conveniently edited out, again, i believe to enforce carver’s lesson) and i do believe that carver was trying to teach us a lesson along with sam and dean. that if you only see things a certain way, no matter how many clues are given, no matter how many people try to show the other side, that there is more to it, people are still going to see what they want to see. but in carver’s story…..the boys seemingly realized that and hopefully they will remember it.
[quote]They could have kept the initial days after season 7 secret from Dean but why they kept it a secret from us god knows.
The way I see it, Carver seemed to be trying to teach us a lesson along with Sam & Dean. Seems to me “misperception” was the whole point. He also seemed to try to explain to us that the boys life, hell life in general isn’t all as black and white and easy as it seems. in my post i’ve given example from show itself in numerous episodes where we the audience have been told that something was indeed wrong with sam & it was his inability to handle the devastation of losing dean that had him break. but even being told in like 6 different eppys that there was more to sam than “not looking” …people still only see what they want to see. sam didn’t look. and we got hints. carver did throw us a bone. dean didn’t have that luxury. so his misperception continued throughout the entire season, and so it seems the fans as well. much like sam’s misperception of dean had gone on the entire season. his belief that benny came first. ( sam’s lost time isn’t the only thing they held out on showing us..see taxi driver unaired scene. a little bit of info very important to that was conveniently edited out, again, i believe to enforce carver’s lesson) and i do believe that carver was trying to teach us a lesson along with sam and dean. that if you only see things a certain way, no matter how many clues are given, no matter how many people try to show the other side, that there is more to it, people are still going to see what they want to see. but in carver’s story…..the boys seemingly realized that and hopefully they will remember it.[/quote]
That’s why I wished they kept that cut scene from Taxi Driver…. not because it proves one of the brothers right or wrong over the other one, but because it made things less black & white, just like real life. Personally, I think the decision to cut the scene was to make it easier to bring Benny back in the future.
Even going back to the somewhat contrived Amy story from S7, Amy was killing to save her son, but she was picking off drug dealers and other lowlifes. Yes, Dean was right in ganking her, but it made the Amy character a little more sympathetic.
njspnfan,
i think i agree with you. the scene from taxi driver was quite relevant to the story. I think it was a big mistake editing that out. honestly i don’t think it should have affected benny’s return. as a matter of fact, his return could have been all the more interesting.
but can i just say this in regards to that deleted scene just because i’m dying to say it……i’ve got three words …..” i knew it”.. 😉 and if i were to look back on my previous posts, i’m sure i’ve gone on somewhere in regards to that. yes..on and on 😛
it just feels good to be proven right..it’s not often that happens. 😆
[quote]njspnfan,
i think i agree with you. the scene from taxi driver was quite relevant to the story. I think it was a big mistake editing that out. honestly i don’t think it should have affected benny’s return. as a matter of fact, his return could have been all the more interesting.
but can i just say this in regards to that deleted scene just because i’m dying to say it……i’ve got three words …..” i knew it”.. 😉 and if i were to look back on my previous posts, i’m sure i’ve gone on somewhere in regards to that. yes..on and on 😛
it just feels good to be proven right..it’s not often that happens. :lol:[/quote]
Every now and then it is great to be able to say ‘I told you so’ isn’t it 😀 (I never lost the faith either nappi – but for me it was always more about there being nothing wrong with Sam’s decision making – him being shown to be right in hindsight is icing! And it doesn’t even prove Dean wrong it just shows that he was willing to have faith in his friend) Not canon, not canon, not canon….
However, sadly, it does make a difference to whether Benny can come back. If Dean knew Benny had fallen off the wagon then he would be honor bound to treat him like any other supernatural creature that kills people (except Cas, I guess) and burn his bones and really he SHOULD be honor bound to tell Sam, since that is information another hunter should have.
It is pretty clear why they left this new information on the cutting-room floor.
[quote]They could have kept the initial days after season 7 secret from Dean but why they kept it a secret from us god knows.The way I see it, Carver seemed to be trying to teach us a lesson along with Sam & Dean. Seems to me “misperception” was the whole point. He also seemed to try to explain to us that the boys life, hell life in general isn’t all as black and white and easy as it seems. in my post i’ve given example from show itself in numerous episodes where we the audience have been told that something was indeed wrong with sam & it was his inability to handle the devastation of losing dean that had him break. but even being told in like 6 different eppys that there was more to sam than “not looking” …people still only see what they want to see. sam didn’t look. and we got hints. carver did throw us a bone. dean didn’t have that luxury. so his misperception continued throughout the entire season, and so it seems the fans as well. much like sam’s misperception of dean had gone on the entire season. his belief that benny came first. ( sam’s lost time isn’t the only thing they held out on showing us..see taxi driver unaired scene. a little bit of info very important to that was conveniently edited out, again, i believe to enforce carver’s lesson) and i do believe that carver was trying to teach us a lesson along with sam and dean. that if you only see things a certain way, no matter how many clues are given, no matter how many people try to show the other side, that there is more to it, people are still going to see what they want to see. but in carver’s story…..the boys seemingly realized that and hopefully they will remember it.[/quote]
Maybe I was not clear.Even [b]now[/b] i don’t know what happened the [b]initial minutes[/b] after season 7..which was necessary.If you know then tell when did Sam hit the dog? After one day? One month? fifteen days?How did he grieve?Why did they not show it?
I will give you my take about how I thought/think about Sam.At the beginning of the season I guessed or rather extrapolated that Sam was devastated.Anyone who knows Sam and Dean will know when one dies the other is devastated.There is no question of my perception.This is something given ..maybe Dean doubts Sam’s love or Sam doubts Dean’s but I don’t.So I don’t know what Carver was trying.
As far as Sam’s decision to not look after he thought Dean died I was happy with that decision.Others complained ..well they will complain even if Sam looked.For me it was all about impact.In season four the shock was that Sam was working with ruby or to be more precise that Sam was drinking demon blood.They can reveal it later .Sam’s grief on Dean going to hell was natural and expected but it was how he grieved which should be shown early on.
If you see season 6 the first minutes of the episode focused on Dean’s grief .Why was it shown ?To give us the Dean’s grief when it was fresh so that we can feel that grief with him.The focus was on his grief not on the shock or surprise .
They failed with Sam in season 4 and now in season 8 in that respect.
i guess the way i see it is like this. so much more has happened to sam from s4 to s6. he’s been through mental anguish & torture that he hasn’t experienced before. 180 years worth. when dean died the first time, sam handled it quite badly & differently. sam was fueled by his failure to save his brother. he was fueled by revenge once ruby showed up. and like it or not, sam was suicidal the first go around. he was looking to die. ruby did save his life. she did give him a reason to go on. but the reason she gave him was revenge. or avenge…never quite sure which. to avenge dean, but also kill lilith. stop her. he can’t bring his brother back but he can do that for him. so his grief & devastation eventually fueled that fire in him. that need for revenge.
this time around was very very different. sam had long since been to hell, been souless & been broken psychologically. his hell memories were many. he had to live with the guilt of his actions while souless. he had to repair his broken psyche when cas broke his wall. he suffered from hellucinations to the point where his body had pretty much given out. losing dean, that was the last emotional straw. he lost the one person who helped him keep it together all this time. so sam’s reaction to losing dean was a bit different this time around. first off he had no support because everyone was dead. he had noone to turn to. he was lost & alone.
i’m not guessing here. i know this from his reactions. his overly major freakouts when he hit the dog, when he couldn’t find amelia in the park, even when dean went off on his own in blood brother. sam handled none of that well at all. he was in constant panic mode. his running away from hunting, from life, hiding out, his entire loveless relationship with someone just because she was as broken as he was…that illustrates to me how disconnected mentally & emotionally sam was. that is very different than what happened when dean died in s4.
look i would love to see sam’s missing 3 months. i still hope that dean gets the real truth next season. jared deserves it. but for me, s6 and s7 has been pretty much a set up for s8. sam has been emotionally/mentally wearing down since he got his soul back. he got progressively worse & dean was in essence the only reason he found the strength to manage. but once dean was gone….sam’s mental & emotional disintegration seemed inevitable to me. human. the logical next step really. i think carver made sam more realistic/ more an actual person this year than anyone ever has. because for all sam’s been through, to just snap out of it and figure out dean was in purgatory and then finding a way to get him out would only make sam a less believable human character and make him more like superman…last i checked his name was sam winchester, not clark kent. the way it played out made much more sense, at least to me. but hey, that’s just the way i see it. 😉
@nappi815[quote] i think carver made sam more realistic/ more an actual person this year than anyone ever has.[/quote]He was always realistic,He looks strong on the outside till he can appear strong on the outside.That is who he is.Carver made the same mistake which was earlier made in season 4 that is failed to show (show being the operating word) Sam’s grief.[quote] i still hope that dean gets the real truth next season.[/quote]I don’t care if Dean gets to know it.I want to know it.There are things about Dean which were shown to us but Dean did not tell Sam that.Like in the Striga episode.
Why are episode where Sam is in major part and Dean appears in last five explosive minutes not there?Spend time on Sam’s character (not in the last minutes) ..and Carver did not do it.
If my memory serves right, Dean’s memories from purgatory where chronological .In case of Sam I don’t know whether the birthday at the park came first or Amelia’s father’s visit?
As I have said earlier,I know that Sam was devastated but why are they not showing how he was devastated?And the time to show it effectively is past(atleast it seems).[quote]look i would love to see sam’s missing 3 months.[/quote]3 months? where was it told?I am specifically talking about the time before he hit the dog.
Also you were talking about some deleted scene in Taxi driver? what was that scene.I don’t consider it canon but i would like to know what that scene was please if you can tell me i will be grateful
[quote]when dean died the first time[/quote]That was the second time or rather the 102th time.and we knew he was working with ruby before we knew his grief.Poor storytelling if you want the viewers who are not Sam fans to sympathize with him if that was their plan. If not they simply must not care of sam as a character but just as a plot device
This isn’t the place for this but I don’t know where to comment about spoilers. There is an awesome new spoiler out now. All I can say is Holy Crap!!!
@ nappi815, njspnfan, elif
Reading your comments about that deleted scene in Taxi Driver I thought I had to comment. I am glad they cut it out as they didn’t flesh out when exactly Benny started feeding again – pre Martin then I could have been with some of you that Sam was right, but because they didn’t clarify that I kind of feel conflicted. If the implication is that Benny fell off the wagon with Martin and after that then I feel sorry for him.
In fact I would have kind of felt as if Sam had a hand in Benny falling off the wagon and feeding on humans because of his actions in introducing Martin to the situation in Citizen Fang leading to Benny falling off the wagon. Amy made a choice to kill to help her son, low lifes or not (it made her sympathetic though wrong) but Benny didn’t choose to be forced into being cut off from his support system in the way it happened and falling off the wagon when Martin attacked his family, which in a lot of ways for me would make him more sympathetic than Amy.
So in the end I think that having that scene fall on the editing floor was the best idea for Sam considering the way him not looking lead to arguments. Better for Sam to be simply wrong about Benny than have the question hanging over Sam with regard to how his distrust of Benny may have lead to Benny being stuck without a support system so falling off the wagon and hurting people.
first off…thank you alice and hubby….it is so wonderful to be back. you’ve done an amazing job and so quickly too. you brought us all back together to share, and i am so very thankful to you.
it’s good to see everyone again.
in regards to your post sidi, i have to disagree though. i think you should go back and watch the girl next door, which i just watched a few days ago. listen to dean’s speech to amy at the end…listen to his reasons for coming back to kill her. he specifically told her, it may be a year, it may be ten years, but you will kill again. you can’t help it. it’s what you are. it’s what you’ll always be. dean knew no matter how many promises amy made to sam, she was a monster and it’s in a monster’s nature to kill.
i’m sorry but benny was no different. he was a monster. he openly admitted to dean that he wasn’t always cute and cuddly. he had killed humans. when benny was first turned, i really doubt his first feed was from a blood bag given the year he was killed. benny died and went to purgatory, not hell, not heaven. he went where monsters go because he was a monster, a monster who, by benny’s own confession, started out killing humans. we may have seen him blood bagging it, but in live free and twi hard those vamps were blood bagging it as well. they were told by the alpha to not kill, but to recruit. they wanted dean. i just wonder, because it certainly did when i rewatched s6, did it ever cross your mind that benny was to recruit dean once again? i mean someone specifically gave benny info on how to get out of purgatory & to use dean to do it. every kill benny made when he got out of purgatory, prior to martin, he had involved dean. that’s been niggling at me ever since i rewatched live free & twi hard. i’m just saying, benny always an alterior motive & it wouldn’t surprise me if he ever came back, that he would be different, than what we’ve seen. i’ve always felt that they’ve purposely written benny in such an oblique way that they can turn benny at any time. for me, i personally never saw benny as anything but a killer.
anyway the point is that sam is not to blame for anything benny did on top. i don’t even blame martin. as a matter of fact, it seem martin was the only one who was in his right mind in citizen fang. like it or not, dean is the one who brought a monster out of purgatory, knowing full well, what he was.it is my very strong belief that dean didnt’ forget his own speech to amy. but it is obvious that dean and benny needed ea. other to get out of purgatory. so, dean knew benny would have his back there because without dean, benny was going nowhere. but outside of purgatory, dean didn’t trust benny, otherwise he never would’ve kept him a secret from sam. dean kept benny from sam for the same reason sam kept amy a secret from dean and his father. but in the end, dean was right. a monster is a monster and nothing can change what they are. dean knew that inevitable shoe would drop. that’s why every phone call from benny had dean all tense and his first question was always what was wrong.
the deleted scene would not have made sam look bad. it would not have made anyone look bad. it would have added more guilt onto dean though. after all, he went against his own beliefs because he felt he owed benny for saving his life. he wanted benny to be the exception to the monster rule, he needed him to be the exception, but in the end, turns out he wasn’t the exception…and that is something dean would have to live with. more guilt.
i think the scene was deleted because carver wanted the audience to really feel the emotional impact of dean’s speech . if we had seen the scene, then i feel it wouldn’t have had the same emotional drama it had as it did with sam. we felt what sam felt.
i think that carver wanted us to know though because they never had to put that unaired scene in the dvd. we the audience never had to know the truth, but it seems to me that though it wasn’t aired, carver still wanted us to know. what he wanted us to know basically, was that dean was right in what he said to amy. killing her was the right thing to do. unfortunately, letting benny out wasn’t …but then again, i think benny was a big part of getting sam and dean to where they are right now…so benny was important. at least that’s how i see it. 😉
so glad to be back guys…..thanks alice
@nappi815
I guess we are going to have to disagree nappi as watching Dean’s speech and his telling Amy’s son that he understands if the boy comes after him gave him more reasoning behind his speech to Amy. Amy had shown that she had found a reason to premediatively kill – her son being sick. No one else pushed her into taking those actions. No one said it was the low lifes or her son which meant she could easily justify killing again if she felt like it. That is what gave Dean’s speech real kick. She could justify her killing in those terms and in doing so she had to be stopped just like Dean accepted in the kid’s head he one day could be hunted down.
Now with Benny, yes he was a vampire who wasn’t always cute and cuddly. But the difference for me was he had found a reason not to kill – first Andrea and then Elizabeth. Now with Andrea getting turned that meant she was no longer the reason to stay dry. Elizabeth being threatened by Martin, who Sam introduced into the situation, meant that Benny lost her too – no more reason to stay dry or to fight as hard especially as straight after the mess Dean also distanced himself from Benny (it might be seen for his own reasons, but it was still straight after the mess with Martin.)
I’m not saying Benny isn’t responsible for feeding off humans what I am saying is that because he was cut off from his support system him falling off the wagon was more likely and like it or not Sam did play a deliberate part in that by introducing Martin to the situation.
Because they didn’t clarify when Benny started feeding off humans it is possible to think of Benny as an alcoholic and Sam as the person that basically shoved a double infront of his face during happy hour and barred the pub door because there was no way Martin was going to leave that situation without confronting Benny. So best leave that scene on the floor so Benny can come back if they want that and more importantly Sam doesn’t get tarred with that brush.
just a reminder, but dean is the one who sent sam away. sam told martin that he was to follow his lead. sam wasn’t going to let martin kill anyone. sam didn’t want benny dead, he wanted to question benny. he wanted to know why dean kept benny from him if he was supposed to be so wonderful. sam is a professional first and foremost. sam also has a heart as big as texas. he would not have killed benny, unless it was absolutely necessary, like saving his own life or someone elses. if martin had made a move on benny before sam got answers, or definite proof that benny was killing, sam would’ve stopped him. if sam wanted benny dead, he never had to tell dean martin was tailing him. sam could’ve killed benny without dean ever knowing it.
dean bringing a monster out of purgatory was very risky on his part. i don’t know if you remember, but benny’s soul reason for wanting out of purgatory was for revenge. the reason he wanted out was to kill the vamp who turned him. so killing was benny’s motivation from the start. not to mention that benny just spent the last fifty years killing..day after day after day in order to survive. it was naive for dean to expect that topside could change benny. all benny knows is killing. he’s been doing it non stop…you can’t just turn that off. his first act as a free purgatory native…killing. one can say he had his reasons. he was killing the one who killed him after all. but isn’t that what separates us humans from monsters. don’t we have laws, both religious and legal that we are not allowed to kill. benny used andrea as an excuse. elizabeth was another excuse to kill. we don’t even know if she was truly his granddaughter. i mean not for nothing but i don’t recall benny ever saying he was married. i mean it’s just as likely that he could’ve just said that to dean to cover his ass so he can get away with killing yet again. i found it interesting that benny’s victims were all vamps he new in the past. i guess my point is, he was still killing once he left purgatory. dean just knew about the vamps. once benny killed martin, he got a taste for human kills. then his natural instinct kicked in. from what i saw, martin wasn’t exactly a stable opponent. i’m not talking mentally either. i mean, once martin was clear of elizabeth, which he would’ve been in order to chop off benny’s head, benny had a clear shot at martin. imo, martin was certainly no match for benny. benny could’ve kicked his ass & walked away. but benny chose to kill martin instead. again, martin was simply another excuse for benny to kill. to tell you the truth, i don’t think martin was a necessary kill. i’m sorry but the way i see it, the only one responsible for benny is benny. i never bought into his act. i certainly don’t put him in the poor vamp who only wanted to be good category, especially given, as i’ve noted that the reason benny wanted out of purgatory in the first place was revenge. i don’t think he ever thought further than that. once he did kill the one who turned him, well seems to me he found out the hard way that it wasn’t in his power to just stop. he always found another reason to kill. always managed to find a way to involve dean and sweet talk him into helping him. i never bought into benny as a sympathetic monster who was the exception to the monster rule……sorry, sidi, i guess we will have to agree to disagree here… 😀 because the way i saw it, benny killed and found reasons/excuses to kill because that’s all he knows…because he’s been doing it on a daily basis for the last 50 years and he just can’t turn it off simply because he’s no longer in purgatory. dean was right…a monster is a monster.
i mean no offense or anything…it’s been a nice discussion even though we don’t agree 😉 …thanks for the chat.
I agree Nappi we aren’t going to agree.
Though I have a question if we go with what you are saying – if Benny was just playing Dean and then admit he was always feeding, why trust him to go into purgatory to get Sam? Why have Dean say that he killed Benny to save Sam in the finale because if Benny was feeding because he was simply playing Dean he should have killed him anyway even if Sam wasn’t in danger. Not to mention Sam suddenly trusting him when he turned up in purgatory and Benny holding up his end.
Basically having Benny killing from day one and Dean still trusting him makes little to no sense because there wasn’t enough ground work to have Dean being the one that turned Benny around from being evil. Having Benny kill from Martin makes more sense seeing how he lost his support system but then I still maintain it doesn’t paint Sam in a good light seeing how he was so sure that Benny was feeding that Benny got pushed into a situation where he definitely did kill the human Sam introduced into the situation – Dean may have sent the text but Sam was the one that brought Martin in.
In many ways it is like Travis and the Rugaru – there was a chance that the man would have lived on raw meat until Travis attacked his family, he was trying. The tragedy in that was that Travis caused the thing that he was saying he was trying to prevent – the Rugaru feeding on a person. Just like in many ways it can be viewed that Martin caused the same thing in Benny and like it or not Martin wouldn’t have known about Benny if it wasn’t for Sam – hence my thing about Benny being an alcoholic and Sam being the one to shove a drink in his face.
To me the perception theme was more about Sam than anyone else. It was his perceptions that were more out of whack than anyone else. He held onto the agreement as his reasoning for not looking, but it wasn’t he just wasn’t in a mental place to do it, if he had admitted that more and said sorry it wouldn’t have been such a big issue as him holding onto the agreement with Dean. Amelia was meant to be a love of his life but really the relationship was a place holder for both of them to hide from their pain, it was a fantasy not something that would have worked long term because he was hiding from himself as much as trying normal. Benny was evil but his problems with Benny were more to do with his issues with Dean than his issues with Benny himself otherwise Kate the werewolf would have had the same treatment. Sam was the one who talked about surviving the trials but in the end really he was prepared to die to prove he could follow through on something to show Dean.
[quote]Having Benny kill from Martin makes more sense seeing how he lost his support system but then I still maintain it doesn’t paint Sam in a good light seeing how he was so sure that Benny was feeding that Benny got pushed into a situation where he definitely did kill the human Sam introduced into the situation – Dean may have sent the text but Sam was the one that brought Martin in.[/quote]Same way like Dean made martin loose whatever rational thinking he had by talking to a guy who was an hunter out from a stint in a psychiatric hospital and trying to find his footing..Like Dean wanted him to go and confront Benny.
As far painting anyone right that episode did not do any favours to any character.
i will answer your question sidi and then respectfully bow out of this topic. i don’t think it belongs here and i’m not sure how it even started. secondly, i’ve posted many a post regarding my thoughts on benny in other areas of this forum & i can honestly say that i’m pretty sure they are as done with my thoughts on this matter as i am talking about it. 😆 i will not belabor the topic any further. the horse is dead. let’s make glue out of him already. 😛
i think i did state that i recognized that a friendship/bond was formed between benny and dean. they still had ea. other’s backs in purgatory, they still saved ea. other. there is a debt owed by ea. to ea. dean is pretty big on owing favors. still, that doesn’t take away from the fact the issue of trust & dean’s lack of trust in benny outside of purgatory. it doesn’t change what benny is. dean and benny are very reminiscent of ruby and sam. ruby sincerely had feelings for sam. i would say she loved him in her own way. look at what she did for him. (not the db.) saving his life. saving dean. saving anna. going through torture for them. but in the end her love for her father (lucifer) was her true motivator. in the end she served her own purpose. i believe it to be the same with benny. benny used dean like ruby did with sam. he also likes dean, like ruby with sam. but in the end, benny put his motives first. he wanted out of purgatory to exact revenge. he got dean to help him kill ea. time. so when i say benny was playing dean, i mean he played on dean’s feelings & his gratitude to benny. he used the friendship that was formed and in essence manipulated dean. he got dean to get him out. he got dean to help him kill the one who turned him. he got dean to help him kill desmond who benny knew from his past. i never saw desmond kill anyone in that ep. so it’s just as likely that martin was right and benny killed those people. benny killed martin & since we never saw what really happened, it’s just as likely that benny got the girl to lie for him. i don’t like or trust benny. he’s an admitted liar and killer. i never bought into his sympathy for the vampire act. i’m sorry. so imo, benny played on dean’s emotion & used their friendship towards his advantage. i don’t blame benny. i expect no less from him. he is after all a monster. in all honesty i don’t think he ever thought past killing the one who turned him. i don’t think he ever considered what it would really be like for him on earth.
benny has killed from day one. he was introduced to us by killing the monster who was going to kill dean. dean said he thought he was his friend. benny replied, now you are. right there was red flag no. one that benny isn’t trustworthy. benny continued to kill out of purgatory. he was killing long before martin entered the picture.
why did dean trust benny to get sam out of purgatory? because benny owed dean just as much as dean owed benny. like i said, there is a friendship there. i’m not denying it. what i said was that benny used that friendship to play dean. it’s not all black and white and simple. it’s all very messed up. using emotional manipulation is not an uncommon act in any relationship. i just found it prevalent when it came to dean and benny. they both played on ea. other emotionally…benny got dean to help him kill and dean got benny to save his brother. they were able to play on ea. other because of the bond they formed.
as for blaming sam…there’s no way i hold sam responsible for anything. let’s talk benny for a second. you compared him to an alcoholic. and you say sam handed him the bottle, but i beg to differ. there is a difference you see. an alcoholic is an alcoholic because that person inflicted that sickness on himself. an addict is an addict by their own hand. and an addict can control his habit or he doesn’t. benny is a vampire. it’s in his nature to kill. it’s part of his altered genetic makeup. whether he’s a monster naturally or he’s been altered, once he became a vampire it was a physical change. unlike an addict benny can’t control his habit. it’s a part of what he is.
the only one responsible for benny killing is benny. benny was killing outside of purgatory even before sam knew he existed. he didn’t come out of purgatory and start living normal. he came out of purgatory to seek revenge. his first act as a free purgatory native…killing his maker. it’s not benny’s fault .he’s a monster. a change of scenery isn’t going to change who and what benny is. my point is that sam isn’t to blame for benny. martin isn’t to blame for benny. benny is responsible for benny and benny is simply doing what vampires do. he’s not even to blame. he is a monster after all, which is why he was where he was. i’m not laying blame here…but darling…dean is the one who brought benny out into the human world. if you compare benny to an alcoholic, then dean is the one who brought him to the liquor store.
regarding the trust issue. well of course sam had issues with dean. dean kept benny a secret. why? in sc dean made benny out to be the better brother, so if benny was so awesome, why not tell sam about him. what’s the big deal? sam concluded that dean lied about benny because he didn’t trust in him. but that’s not why dean lied about benny. there are two big reasons why dean didn’t tell sam & not trusting sam wasn’t one of them. first off, dean didn’t trust in benny outside of purgatory. that’s why every phone call started with a what’s wrong? dean was always waiting for the other shoe to drop. it was blatant in every episode benny was in . secondly, dean is no answer: he isn’t different. the same rule applies to him as it does amy, but benny was dean’s friend. dean owed benny so dean let him out. well didn’t sam owe amy for saving him? didn’t dean do exactly what sam did? the answer to that is yes. don’t think dean didn’t recognize his hypocrisy. that’s the other reason dean kept benny from sam. when sam found out he called dean out on it and dean’s reply…people change sam. that’s his comeback. you said sam’s issues were out of whack, but he got his cues/miscues from dean. lack of communication by both boys played a hand at ea. other’s misperceptions. i’m sorry but i have to disagree with your statement that sam held onto his agreement as reasoning. that statement about the agreement thing, the way i believe it to be, was the excuse he used because he didn’t want dean to know the truth. that he indeed broke. i’ve cited 6 different eps where we were told that sam didn’t just not look, but that something was actually wrong with him. i also disagree that amelia was to be the love of his life. she wasn’t written that way at all. i’ve posted this elsewhere as well, it’s my firm belief based on the entire relationship that amelia was simply an escape for sam, something to focus on so he didn’t have to focus on his loss. if she were the love of his life, then i believe crowley would’ve killed her, instead crowley chose sarah. sarah was the first person sam truly had feelings for after jess. it was her death that devastated him to the point of giving up. if amelia was truly the love of his life, show would’ve used her. so again i’m sorry to disagree with your assessment.
as for your statement regarding sam’s issues with benny, i just want to put out there that kate was in eppy three. benny didn’t show up until eppy 5. sam seemed to follow dean’s lead because that’s what sam does. dean was pretty off from purgatory, so sam probably figured dean’s attitude towards kate was due to that. in this case, sam got to witness what dean witnessed. sam’s mistrust of benny was instinctive of course, but dean lying about benny from the start only made matters worse. if benny was so awesome as dean made him out to be, why should dean hide him at all. sam’s mistrust came from his lack of knowledge. the fact that dean did everything he could, including sending that text to keep sam from benny…well is sam so wrong not to trust in this vampire? he knows nothing about him at all and dean is still keeping them apart..why? sam may have believed that dean distrusted him but .as i’ve mentioned sam gets his cues from his brother, or in this case, miscues. i think misperception was prevalent in both brothers. that has been the case for 8 years and now thankfully, carver has finally put an end to all that. yay….
anyhoo…i’m done. i can honestly say we agree on absolutely nothing 😆 that’s ok. i mean we all have our own perception. i promise to move on from this now. i’m pretty sure you ‘ve had enough of my rambles and i’m sure others can say the same.
season 9 moving on 😉
sidi, i feel like i didn’t respond to your question completely and i tried to go back and edit, but it didn’t work. it’s in regards to benny’s willingness to help sam and your question/statement about sam trusting benny.
benny was calling dean and having a hard time, ogling humans long before martin was in the picture…it was difficult from the start. why? because benny didn’t belong on earth. it was a feeding factory for someone like him.
as far as benny going to purgatory to save sam. well first off benny admitted to dean that he didn’t belong on earth. it was too hard for him. he wanted to go back to purgatory. dean was doing him a favor. so it wasn’t all altruism on benny’s part. and like i said, the friendship between benny and dean was real. they owed ea. other. but also as with sam & ruby, it’s just as likely that benny saved sam so he would look good to dean. either way, the result is the same.
as for sam, well sam didn’t trust benny, sam admitted to dean that he understood. benny was trying to help sam, so in return, sam would help benny. not because he liked or trusted benny, but because sam loves his brother.
there…now officially finished….
season 9…..moving on 😆
Nappi we are just going to disagree because most of what you said doesn’t make anysense to me in the slightest.
Benny is evil completely and is just manipulating Dean and Sam is completely innocent???? That makes no sense he could have just gone back to purgatory and let Sam stew in his own juices if he was simply playing his own ends. Sam could have let Bobby cut Benny’s head off when they met in purgatory when Benny saved their asses if he didn’t trust him or get that maybe he had been in the wrong about Benny in the slightest.
Dean is not allowed to be conflicted about actually forging a friendship with something he has always fought against and it compares 100% to Sam drinking blood lying about his powers. Benny can’t ask his friends for help when it is required – ie when he was attacked by the nest he wanted revenge for and he didn’t ask Dean to come help him with Desmond – if Martin hadn’t been there Dean wouldn’t have been there.
For crying out loud let Sam make a mistake that actually makes him more relatable to those who don’t relate to him. He acted up and screwed up and then admitted he was wrong because of him not because of anything else. But putting Benny in as feeding after Martin means Sam is worse because we don’t throw a parade to those who essentially push addicts back into relapsing because they don’t trust them and then go ‘see they drink or smoke or take drugs’ even if the person is an addict – we call them gits even if we hold the addict responsible for their sickness too.
Let Dean grow as a character and have an idea that monsters can have a second chance if he has no evidence that they chose to kill – ie Kate the werewolf and Benny. Let a monster be redeemable for crying out loud.