Let’s Speculate: “Supernatural” 8.19, “Taxi Driver”
Warning! If you haven’t seen “Taxi Driver,” then read no further! There will be heavy discussion about the episode, aka lots of spoilers. Do yourself a favor and watch the episode before you venture inside and theorize with me.
There were parts of this episode that I liked. Mainly, Benny and Bobby. There were also parts of this episode that I didn’t like. Plot holes galore. Overall, I think it was just kind of there for me. They tried to cram a lot into this episode, and it felt rushed at times and like the episode couldn’t catch its legs and breathe. I’m all for fact pacing when it makes sense, but I don’t think the pacing did this episode any favors. My expectations were low because this writing team is not my favorite, so at least they were surpassed. That’s good. But I was really wanting more from this episode than I ended up getting. Maybe I just didn’t connect with it, but I was left with sort of a blah feeling, which isn’t what I want after a heavy mytharc episode. But this episode did produce a theory for me to share with you, so here we go!
Naomi Is In Kevin’s Head
So, who do we know that gets into people’s heads and manipulates them into doing their bidding? Who can create false images of people? Who is that boat not warded against? Naomi. Presuming she’s an angel and not some other sort of monster like I speculated last week. Still, that boat was warded against demons. And angels do have a direct line to prophets, after all. Chuck heard angel radio. I think it was Naomi who was talking to Kevin and making him go mad. She created a false Crowley and took Kevin away. Crowley was never on that boat. The windows were intact when Sam and Dean came aboard after we saw them blown out in Kevin’s hallucination. I think Naomi took Kevin because she wants the demon tablet half he has. And now that she’s lost Castiel and the angel tablet, it’s even more important that Crowley doesn’t get his hands on it.
That’s the only theory I could come up with after this episode. So let’s do the rest of this bullet-point style.
- Whoa, that opener was naaaaaaaaaasty.
- Not sure what Kevin thinks a frying pan will do against Crowley, though.
- Oh, hey, the SPN shake set! Wow, I’m amazed they had all that setup with the crane and everything for like 2 seconds on screen.
- Okay, so Hell is apparently way easier to get into than the angels made it seem. I mean, they had to assault the place and get lots of themselves killed to get Dean. But this reaper can just waltz right in?
- While I’m happy that they are so gung-ho about getting Bobby out, I wish they had tried to do it for ADAM. Seriously. All I needed back in the beginning of season 6 was a little montage of them trying to get Adam out, or whatever. But no. Of course get Bobby out of Hell. He’s Bobby. But also, honestly, just can someone take it seriously that Adam is in there, too? It’s driving me nuts.
- I also wish the CW hadn’t blabbed about Bobby being in Hell early because I would have liked that to have been a surprise.
- I’m glad that talking about supernatural happenings in a public place finally had consequences, aka a demon overheard them. But it was kind of wonky how we were just left on our own to assume that demon reported to Crowley. Also, why was that demon there in the first place? Keeping tabs on the reaper? Why?
- Whoa, the graffiti moving scene FX were AWESOME.
- Ah, so now Purgatory is also super easy to get into. Again, angels, you guys are clearly not thinking outside the box here.
- “Gate-crashing a Winchester into Hell seriously blows.”
- Taking care of your prophet by buying him some food is a good thing. Being flippant about him stealing your pie while your brother is trapped in Hell? Seems a bit off to me.
- “You’re trying my non-patience.”
- I kind of wonder how different this part of Hell is from the part Sam was in. Also, I thought Crowley reorganized the place into people standing in line. Maybe that is a different part of Hell?
- Why did Sam take his watch off, though? To mark the way he came in?
- The Hell set was super awesome, though.
- Why is Bobby’s cell unlocked? I wonder if that was some other sort of torture for him, like the door was left open, and every time he tried to escape he would get tortured. Because of course a hunter would try to escape a cell with an unlocked door. Aw, now I’ve made myself sad.
- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH, Bobby! HA ha ha ha ha, he punched Sam.
- Ugh, the thought of Bobby getting tortured with images of Sam and Dean coming to him…no. Nope, do not want.
- “My half has the acknowledgments and the about the author.” HA.
- Nice spin, Naomi. Wow, she is GOOD. Don’t buy it, Dean!
- Naomi is such a delicious character. Seriously, she’s been a really great addition to this season. I look forward to her continued presence. They better not kill her off. Famous last words.
- BALLS! So glad he said that.
- Might want to close up the gate to Hell, guys. No? Just gonna leave that portal between Purgatory and Hell open, then? No recollection of Crowley, current King of Hell, trying to take over Purgatory and claim all the souls in a power grab? Yep, I’m sure that won’t have any consequences down the line.
- YES, SPRING BOBBY FROM HEAVEN!!!! YES! Let’s find that angel tablet and hope it has instructions on how to make one Bobby Singer corporeal again.
- BENNY!!! BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENY! I hope that’s not the last we see of him. I enjoyed his character.
- “Well, you two really went off the rails when I was gone, didn’t you?”
- “But if they give me a rocking chair up there, I’m raising hell.” Bobby, you are the best. You get back on my show posthaste.
- Bobby’s soul is pretty!
- How did Crowley know where to meet Dean in the 100-mile wilderness? I know the demon spy saw him leave , but then what?
- CROWLEY, FUCK YOU! (This is literally the note I made when Bobby’s soul stopped ascending to heaven.)
- Naomi! Huzzah! Wow, never thought I’d say that.
- “I’m just hoping they lock you away, dear. The rest I’ll figure out.”
- “Don’t call me a bureaucrat.”
- Did Naomi just finger-pistol Bobby to heaven?
- Trying to think who would be worse to have stuck in your head, Lucifer or Crowley.
- Crowley’s line “I am forever” reminds me of “We will always end up here.”
- Sam admitting he was wrong and that Benny was an okay vampire was good. Very good, Sam. I’m sure your brother appreciated that.
- And now Kevin is in the wind. Maybe, Dean, if you could see it coming that Kevin finally freaked out, you should have had someone watching him instead of leaving him alone.
And that’s a wrap. We’ve got a couple weeks before we get a new episode, sad, but that gives us lots of time to discuss the episode. What did you think about it? Am I being too harsh? Did you love it? Did you hate it?
We welcome all opinions in the comments, but please remember that doesn’t excuse any attacks on other commenters, on the writer of this article (me!) or on the writers of the episode. Saying you’re disappointed is fine. Calling people names is not fine. Let’s have a nice, civil discussion so that I don’t have to edit anyone’s comments!
#1. The watch thing bugged me, too.
#2. I agree. It’s Naomi, not Crowley who took Kevin. The boat was warded against demons, not angels.
#3. It took many angels lives to get Cas out of purgatory, but Sam and Bobby just sneak past a couple of demons?
#4. Much like the cheap hotels rooms placed furthest from the Magic Kingdom, Bobby’s cell is apparently just a few yards from the back door to Hell.
#5. Did the girl telling Sam “I prayed to you every day” think he was Jesus? (the hair, maybe)
#6.Benny was the best I’ve seen and looks like this is the last I see him.
#7. At the Crossroads scene, all I could think of was the Harlem Shake.
#8.Crowleys line”I am forever” kind of makes it clear he’s not a Scottish dude a couple of hundred years old.
#9. This is the second time someone’s called Sam out on not looking for Dean. I speculate there’s a plot line here that will play out, and it’s not one with Sam and Amelia and a birthday cake.
#10. Yes, Sam was in Hell, but don’t hate on Dean. Boy’s gotta eat!!
Re: #10 on your list. I wasn’t hating on Dean. If you re-read my comment, I was saying that I found it a little jarring that Dean would be so preoccupied with the pie when his brother was in Hell.
It’s early and I have to get ready for work so I’m gonna cheat and work off of your list :-*
1. Totally thought the watch thing was about marking his trail so he could find his way out.
2. I’m not so much thinking that Naomi took Kevin, even though that is a great thought. I’m thinking that between the extreme stress of becoming a prophet and the weight of deciphering the tablets along with the isolation, lack of nutrition, etc has finally taken it’s toll on Kevin. We have seen him going downhill. I think he cracked and ran. Of course, I could be wrong 😉
5. Lol! That’s what I thought too!
6. Loved everything about Benny. Hate for him to be gone. Thought there was a good dynamic between him and both brothers, especially once Sam got to know him.
7. Lol! Again…me too!
9. I think they must be going somewhere with this. They BETTER be going somewhere with this. Just wondering now if it is just going to be an acknowledgment or if there is a bigger plot twist coming.
All in all, I loved the episode. It was fast paced though. I mean, Sam was in purgatory before the 1st commercial break. A lot to take in in a short time.
Oh good point about the Harlem Shake! I totally missed that!!
I think it’s a little harsh, but you raise some really good points, which I was too preoccupied to notice on my own. Seriously, I was grabbed and hauled in from the start and I thought it was a wonderful episode. I didn’t even expect it to be, given the writers, but the premise was there, the characters, the lines. It all gelled for me.
I think Sam left his watch because in Hell, time is distorted? But I don’t see why it would have been different because he took it off IN hell. Maybe the time is actual, but to the wearer it is distorted…I don’t know, that’s just how it hit me.
I’m thinking these portals weren’t always there, making it easier to access now (post apocalypse thwarted) than before, when Cas and all those angels got Dean out.
I think Lucifer’s cage, where Adam and Michael and Lucifer are, is not the same as regular Hell. Same for Crowley’s waiting line, but that was an inconsistency if you look at it exactly as he said it in the earlier ep in season 6. I would like to see them spring Adam, but I think they have determined that is impossible except for Death and Crowley. If they got him back, they’d have to promptly kill him, because who wants 3 Winchester brothers, anyway?
For me, the biggest inconsistency was with the reaper. Even though he was rogue, who knew reapers enjoyed pizza and drive taxi’s. I thought they were not corporeal and I didn’t think they’d be killed, especially like angels. I found that odd, but it didn’t bother me much.
I thought Sam and Dean could have paid more serious attention to Kevin’s plight, but I guess they needed the tablet to get lost for a few more episodes.? That was only mildly lame.
Overall, I was really happy with it, and very happy that Dean is not pissed at Sam for leaving Benny. I’m really glad they are still on the same page and the sacrifice Benny made, well, it brought tears, really. Very tragic and I hope he’s not gone for good.
Just typed a whole comment and it didn’t post. Not working?
The site is being a little crazy tonight, but your comment posted. Unless it was a different long comment you wrote?
you wrote it so well
i thought it must be some admiration article but it was not,
it was so genuine thanx for that:)
there are 2 things i think about it :
the hell was so easy to access no guards no nothings
I think if when kevin said to them they have to rescue innocent soul they think about Adam because Sam knows the place completely &
they could put a condition that only a human soul that gate of hell open for him before, can enter to it again!
but Sam instead of Adam find bobby (obviously the taxi guy should not know about who is in hell )
if i was me i would make story for crowly , something that keep him busy on earth that he can not go check on hell stuff! the story that dean & kevin probably created for him.
I wish writers & Carver believe they interacted with very smart fandom, look at all fanart & fanfics & speculations out there
so make things more complected & interesting
Great review. But I’m at total war with myself on this episode.I had SO MANY problems with many canon issues in this episode, but I loved the emotional impact.
Issues first-you mentioned most of them. But by far the biggest one is the how easy it was to move between all these places. When the past it has been such a problem. It lessen the impact of all the past rescues. And even worse past non-rescues. The last time Sam was supposed to have torn himself up looking for a way to get Dean out and now he can just stroll in and get Bobby out. Kind of really hate that. And Dean had to kill himself to talk to a reaper last time but this time they just walk up to one. And then there is the fact that the scariest things are unusually unseen. But now that we’ve seen this version of Hell, it doesn’t seem that bad. And if this was that easy why aren’t they trying to get Adam out? I know he’s in the cage, but you’d think they’d at least make an attempt. And yeah we spent all season 6 trying to find Purgatory and Sam just ducks back through from Hell. So Crowley should have been knocking on some walls. And why did Crowley just torture reapers to begin with to find Purgatory. So there is all of that. Which will bug me a lot, so I hope they throw it some explainer lines at some point. I would like to think this is part of the grand all about perception theme-but I really don’t think so.
But despite all that (which WOW is a lot when I went to type it), I really did kind of love MANY parts of the episode. I love that Bobby was back, even if it was just one episode.BOBBBBBYYYYY!!!!!!!!! And I ABSOLUTELY ADORED that it was Sam who rescued. I loved the scene between them, especially the fact the Dean promised never to tell anyone Bobby’s deep dark secret, but didn’t look surprised at all that Sam knew-because Sam isn’t just anyone. And loved/hated that they were using the boys to torture Bobby. I even liked that Bobby threw Sam not looking for Dean in his face, because I think it’s a sign that is about to come up again.
I thought the scene between Benny and Dean was fabulous. I liked that Dean was willing to ask and Benny was willing to do it. And that Sam was finally shown why Dean trusted him. And I really loved how Benny patted Sam on the shoulder like a buddy. I was like NO. STAY. Because now he could be around them more since Sam doesn’t want to kill him. (I will confess I did think it would be a more interesting storyline if Benny was playing them but I loved those scenes-so I’m still good) But at least they left it open for him to come back.
AND WE FINALLY GOT A REAL FREAKIN’ BROTHER HUG!!!!!! Not that travesty of one in the first episode this season.
I didn’t think about when I watched it (I actually thought it was another plot hole), but I’m sure you’re right about Naomi posing as Crowley. Nice Catch!
I thought the same thing when the boys hugged, that’s the hug we’ve been waiting for all season!!
You nailed it.
I had some probelms with canon in this episode, but once again I blame the writers. It’s as if these two writers don’t watch any of the episodes prior to writing a new one. The two of them have a bad habit of throwing things into an episode that contradict things we’ve seen before and they have too many plot holes in their writings.
OTOH: I love all of the emotional stuff they threw into this episode. They really got that stuff right. I’m a huge Benny fan so I was very sorry to see him go but he had a dignified release and I especially enjoyed his reaction to Dean asking for his help. It was a beautifully mature response and just made me love him more.
I loved Bobby’s initial reaction to Sam. I know for a few fans that punch was a long time coming and I didn’t see that coming at all. It never occurred to me how they would be torturing Bobby in Hell. I just never thought about it.
When Crowley showed up in Kevin’s room ,the first thing I looked for was whether or not the windows were broken so I’m convinced that all of that was Kevin hallucinating, although Naomi taking him is a great thought. I wouldn’t put it past her to do something like that. I’m glad other people caught that unbroken window thing.
I’m also convinced that a lot of the emotional stuff in this episode like Bobby busting Sam on not looking for Dean and that real hug the brothers gave each other when Sam got back was thrown to us: the fans. hese were two of the biggest things we had been busting the writer’s butts on since the beginning of the season and it’s very satisfying for us to see the writers acknowledging those two issues.
But overall I liked this episode. It was a little weak on the plot but I liked all of the character stuff and I was prepared to not like it at all.It’s not my favorite as the episode didn’t really answer many questions on the mytharc but I give it a solid B for effort.
I am SO pleased with this episode. This has to be the best episode they’ve had since the beginning of season 6 in my opinion. There was never a slow moment.
First, it was so cute how when Sam went to get Bobby, Bobby said he’d been tortured seeing fake Sam and Dean’s. Their hug was perfect, too. And I love how Bobby brought up the whole “you didn’t look for Dean” thing. That most likely means that’s going to be talked about later on, which I know almost all of us have been dying for.
Also, I think the whole Dean/Benny thing was great. Dean had originally ditched Benny, who he obviously cherished his friendship with, for Sam because it was messing up their relationship. But not only that, he calls Benny back so he can kill him so he can rescue Sam. That’s true love for his brother right there. Dean looked so hurt the whole time him and Benny were talking. Then, when Sam came back from Purgatory, Dean didn’t even look for Benny. He saw Sam and literally GRABBED him into a hug holding back tears. That has to be one of my favorite hugs (other favorites are when Dean gets back from hell, when Sam’s wall is put back up and he wakes up, when Dean comes back and sees Sam alive after he sold his soul for him…just to name some of them). I cried at that hug. After that, then Dean asked about Benny. That shows even though Dean talked big about how Benny was a better brother than Sam ever was, after he sacrificed Benny for Sam it shows how really deep down that isn’t true. This also means that Benny is probably going to be brought up later, though. Probably resulting in Dean getting really upset since he never really talks about stuff but when he does, he gets really upset. That hugging scene though…sorry guys. It just showed how he was desperate for Sam to be okay and was so relieved he was there. It was just beautiful. Okay, I’m done. 🙂
But I’m also really glad that Bobby is in heaven where he belongs now. Benny wanted to be in purgatory…he said himself he didn’t belong in the normal world. I’m sure Dean is going to lose it sometime soon…he just seemed extremely emotionally on edge this whole episode and was teary multiple times when it came to Benny/Sam.
Basically I’m so pleased with this episode, it’s insane. I’m so happy about it. I’m glad Bobby is in heaven, I’m glad Sam went to purgatory since now he understands what Dean went through so now there’s an understanding between them about that, I love how there isn’t tension between the brothers anymore and how it still shows how much Dean truly loves Sam, and this episode was just great. It flew by. Never a dull moment.
Now 3 weeks until the next episode!
Completely agree with you. This episode was emotionally great. Every interaction were great. It was a bit rushed but I enjoyed all the same.
Seriously the way Dean hugged Sam reminded me of my mom’s hug when she was scared she lost me. I was crying like a baby that time. It was like Dean was really scared and desperate. After this episode my respect for Benny has also increased.
[quote]Completely agree with you. This episode was emotionally great. Every interaction were great. It was a bit rushed but I enjoyed all the same.
Seriously the way Dean hugged Sam reminded me of my mom’s hug when she was scared she lost me. I was crying like a baby that time. It was like Dean was really scared and desperate. After this episode my respect for Benny has also increased.[/quote]
Exactly. The way Dean hugged Sam is something so different than we’ve seen in a long time. It’s just kind of like old times again. That’s a perfect word for how he hugged Sam…desperately. He saw Sam and literally looked shocked and then grabbed Sam into that hug and wouldn’t let go for a few seconds. I can’t wait for the next few episodes (I hate having to wait 3 more weeks especially for a kind of out of nowhere episode. I want them to talk about Benny and purgatory together and Bobby and maybe even why Sam didn’t go looking for him since that was officially brought back up).
I agree with you, too–YES! That hugging moment was so powerful. As for the (valid) complaint that Purgatory and Hell were too easy to get into, well, they didn’t have a soul smuggler with them before, did they? The reaper can navigate easily between realms, apparently, where mortals can’t. Dean couldn’t just waltz in, he had to get Benny to go in his stead. So while the “freeing a soul” storyline did seem a bit too easy and even rushed, there was so much to love about this episode (Bobby, Benny and Dean, the creepy corridors of hell-which again, being a back door, I was ok with its being relatively unguarded-Naomi’s justifications and good-guy act, Kevin’s terrifying freakouts) that I can honestly say that I rank it with the best of the season.
Jeez, where to begin? Bobby! I almost lost it when he turned around! They kept that REAL secret! I like how he’s around one episode and he’s getting through to at least Sam. They haven’t had him around to stop the fighting … Cas got them back together in Torn and Frayed but if Bobby had been around he would have knocked some sense into them right off! But, at least he’s in the right spot.
Have been on the fence about Benny but thought this was a much better send off than Dean just telling him it was time to say goodbye. Plus, now Sam understands why Dean trusted him, which is great, and has had a taste of Purgatory so now has a much better understanding of what Dean (and Cas) went through.
I didn’t think of it but I do believe you’re right that Naomi was the one getting to Kevin. It makes sense and I don’t believe anything she said for a minute. She’s just trying to make the best of the situation now that Cas is protecting the tablet from her. I’m sure she knows that at some point Dean and Cas are going to cross paths again and if she gets her hands on the angel tablet then what’s to stop her from killing Dean, Cas and maybe even Sam?
I just hope Kevin’s okay and his mom really isn’t dead but it wouldn’t surprise me either. And another hiatus? Gah!
Well I Learnt that Sam’s judgement and opinion is still insert (here) whatever you wish has with Benny reminded us. And I learnt that Bobby god love him is allowed to tell us that Sam inexplicable didnt look for Dean .
Outside of that it was as decent as it was but not as good as it could of been and getting into hell and out as certainly lost its mystique .
Yes it was a terrible episode. I was pretty angry until the end. The dots were connected the simplest way possible.
However, it seemed that purgatory, Benny and Bobby were tossed in to force Sam to acknowledge his mistakes. Only he didn’t. He didn’t apologize for spending a year thinking about himself rather than others. He didn’t apologize for not trying to rescue Dean from God’s armpit. He didn’t apologize for trying to kill Dean’s friend and for nor trusting his brother of all people to uphold to his own mantra of saving people first and foremost; Dean wouldn’t let Benny live if he thought he was killing. He doesn’t even think his brother was strong enough or smart to do the trials. He clearly hasn’t learned his lesson from previous seasons : pride goeth before a fall.
Admitting mistakes and learning from them leads to character growth. Having Sam be manipulated yet again leads to no growth. Doing another grand redemption arc doesn’t erase the way he behaves day to day because he’s so emotional and prideful. No wonder Dean has all of the friends. Dean thinks of others. Martin’s dead. Benny lost his best chance at normal. Elizabeth was nearly killed and saw things no one should see. All because Sam was jealous.
Having someone manipulate him to behave selfishly will anger a lot of fans, probably the majority of Dean fans in the planet: these same fans are ready to quit the show after this episode.
So i did not see sam apologizing. I did not see a well written or logical episode.
What I did see: Bobby lecturing him about leaving Dean for dead. Dean jumping to rescue Sam. Benny turning the other cheek and jumping to rescue Sam. I saw Dean making the plan to get Sam in. I saw Dean making the plan to get Sam out. I saw that Dean had the connection they needed (Benny) and the clout to exercise it because he is loyal, because Dean’s friendship means something.
So Sam is unapologetic, unrepentant and unable to do these trials on his own. Sam only said maybe there was more to Benny than was originally thought. Not an apology.
On top of all this Dean was caring for Kevin. Frankly he can be excused for leaving the boat to save Sam can’t he?
The reaper wanted a favor from Dean. Naomi wants a favor from Dean.
Pretty sure that the third trial will be fake. Pretty sure that all the trials are hinky.
Pretty sure that Dean will rescue Benny and Bobby will be resurrected.
Pretty sure that naomi does have kevin.
Pretty sure this was way to easy and something hinky is going on.
Have always thought Crowley was an angel since day 1.
Pretty sure Naomi will continue the deus ex machinations until she thinks she has Dean where she wants him.
I am hoping that these doorways are Naomi ‘s doing. Not sure why Bobby was handed to sam on a platter. The mytharc has smelled like somebody’s long con all season. Maybe Crowley and Naomi are in cahoots. Their son et lumiére at the end was a very pretty show.
If moose stomped his foot to get his own purgatory story, he didn’t get what he wanted. Sam looked like a fish out of water. Dean owned purgatory. Dean was every monster ‘s worst nightmare. Sam looked Absolutely ridiculous.
He also looked unheroic, prideful, and like the biggest, most ungrateful prick on the planet by the end of the episode.
This was by far the worst episode of the season moreso because of the way it trashed Canon and several great mytharcs at once. This Season has been awful since Citizen Fang with the exception of Goodbye Stranger. I don’t want to see Charlie again either.
Dean didn’t look for Benny when Sam returned because he assumed he was traveling in Sam’s arm. So not looking for Benny first doesn’t doesn’t mean anything. Also Dean’s plan was to resurrect Benny. Dean was desperate but there is no indication that he doesn’t value Benny (he surely does). All this proved is that Benny is a far bigger and better soul than Sam.
Oops. Should read: retconning Sam’s story to have someone in control of his actions, his selfish year off, won’t excuse his behavior all season. It will anger a lot of fans…
The stupidity of this episode destroyed brain cells!
[quote]retconning Sam’s story to have someone in control of his actions, his selfish year off, won’t excuse his behavior all season.[/quote]No it will not if it was planned originally to be so.[quote]It will anger a lot of fans…[/quote]I will be waiting with popcorn.
[quote]However, it seemed that purgatory, Benny and Bobby were tossed in to force Sam to acknowledge his mistakes.[/quote]Problem is they force situations .If you can see Sam not apologizing I see Dean and Cas not apologizing.And don’t worry I am a Sam fan and I am very close to quitting this show.This will be the first show I quit for that matter.[quote] Having Sam be manipulated yet again leads to no growth.[/quote]Actually it does not have anything to do with growth.If you are manipulated ,It means you were manipulated.At any given time Sam should apologize for his part in the mistake nothing more nothing less.But at the same time all other characters should apologize too.
wunderpat, maybe I’m misunderstanding some of your post, so if I am, please ignore what I’m saying here. Also this is just my opinion, but to me I don’t see why Sam should have to apologize for not trusting Benny. It’s not like Dean-and just know I’m not hating on him saying this, but-gave him any reason to trust Benny. All he did was keep him a secret and then expected Sam to trust him on Dean’s word alone. I don’t recall Dean ever properly explaining why Sam should trust Benny, just that he should because Dean does. I’ve mentioned before why I think it was short-sighted of Dean to expect Sam to blindly trust when Dean has never done the same, so I’m not going to go too much into that.
I also recall writing a very long post about why I don’t think Martin was entirely Sam’s fault, so forgive me if I don’t repeat that either. Neither he nor Dean had their shiniest moments in that episode.
I really think the entire Benny situation could have been handled better than it was-by both brothers. But I’ve always seen Sam’s point in this, too.
To me, I just don’t think Sam should apologize for not immediately trusting a vampire he knows nothing about, who followed Dean out of Purgatory, who was kept a secret from him (I seem to recall Dean was pretty pissed when Sam kept Ruby a secret. Not saying Sam was right, but the tables have been turned before), and the first time he met him, was right after Dean left and ended up in a vamp nest. So yeah, even if he didn’t express his weariness of the situation in the best manner he could, I feel he was right to be suspicious. Even if it turned out there was no actual cause for concern, I don’t believe he was wrong to be concerned in the first place.
Now, again, this might sound like a whole lot of defending Sam over Dean, so I just want to make clear again that I love both boys. I just thought Dean had some fairly big double standards when it came to Benny.
[quote]wunderpat, maybe I’m misunderstanding some of your post, so if I am, please ignore what I’m saying here. Also this is just my opinion, but to me I don’t see why Sam should have to apologize for not trusting Benny. It’s not like Dean-and just know I’m not hating on him saying this, but-gave him any reason to trust Benny. All he did was keep him a secret and then expected Sam to trust him on Dean’s word alone. I don’t recall Dean ever properly explaining why Sam should trust Benny, just that he should because Dean does. I’ve mentioned before why I think it was short-sighted of Dean to expect Sam to blindly trust when Dean has never done the same, so I’m not going to go too much into that.
I also recall writing a very long post about why I don’t think Martin was entirely Sam’s fault, so forgive me if I don’t repeat that either. Neither he nor Dean had their shiniest moments in that episode.
I really think the entire Benny situation could have been handled better than it was-by both brothers. But I’ve always seen Sam’s point in this, too.
To me, I just don’t think Sam should apologize for not immediately trusting a vampire he knows nothing about, who followed Dean out of Purgatory, who was kept a secret from him (I seem to recall Dean was pretty pissed when Sam kept Ruby a secret. Not saying Sam was right, but the tables have been turned before), and the first time he met him, was right after Dean left and ended up in a vamp nest. So yeah, even if he didn’t express his weariness of the situation in the best manner he could, I feel he was right to be suspicious. Even if it turned out there was no actual cause for concern, I don’t believe he was wrong to be concerned in the first place.
Now, again, this might sound like a whole lot of defending Sam over Dean, so I just want to make clear again that I love both boys. I just thought Dean had some fairly big double standards when it came to Benny.[/quote]
I agree. Dean just said oh he’s a vampire, you should trust him though because I do. Especially when those bodies started going missing. It wouldn’t be the first time Dean had been in denial about something on the show.
I’m honestly shocked at how much people are complaining about the episode. It’s everything people have been complaining about….it was fast paced and not filled with useless fillers, it had a purpose and a point, Bobby was back, Benny was back, Dean and Sam shared a really sweet moment together, Bobby brought up to Sam about not looking for Dean which most likely means that the matter is going to be resolved at some point since it’s obviously not dead…I mean what else do people want? The reaper was the one that got Sam easily to purgatory. He couldn’t have done it alone. Sam refused to let Dean come along, and what would have happened if he did? They would have been stuck. I’m also seeing a lot of people complaining about how their hug was initiated by Dean and Sam was only half into it “as always” on other sites. I just don’t understand what everyone wants to finally be satisfied.
If Dean had gone along with Sam they WOULDN’T have been stuck, because Dean knows about the human-only portal that’s there. The only reason Sam was stuck was because Dean WASN’T there, and had obviously not told Sam anything about the portal.
[quote]However, it seemed that purgatory, Benny and Bobby were tossed in to force Sam to acknowledge his mistakes. Only he didn’t…….He doesn’t even think his brother was strong enough or smart to do the trials. He clearly hasn’t learned his lesson from previous seasons : pride goeth before a fall.[/quote]
If Purgatory, Benny and Bobby were put in there for the sole purpose of forcing Sam to acknowledge his ‘mistakes’ then he’d have acknowledged his ‘mistakes’. After all, the people who wrote in Purgatory, Benny and Bobby are also the people who were writing Sam; they’re not independent of each other. Sam ain’t writing his own words!
Also, Sam never said that Dean wasn’t strong enough or smart enough to do the trials. In fact he said that Dean was the best hunter he knew (Damnit Sam, where is that pride that’s about to make you fall??). Sam wanted to do the trials solely because Dean had a death wish and Sam didn’t want Dean to die (He’s so selfish! How [i]dare[/i] Sam deprive Dean of his desperation fuelled desire to die!)
[quote]Admitting mistakes and learning from them leads to character growth. Having Sam be manipulated yet again leads to no growth……..Having someone manipulate him to behave selfishly will anger a lot of fans, probably the majority of Dean fans in the planet: these same fans are ready to quit the show after this episode.[/quote]
wunderpat, would you mind explaining to me how Sam is responsible for Martin, Elizabeth and Benny? Independently of Sam, Benny chose to seek out Elizabeth. There were vampire deaths in the area where he was. Sam or no Sam, Martin or no Martin, hunters would have picked up on it (especially if, as Benny claims, Desmond planned to go on killing to get Benny into the ‘family’) so Benny was in danger regardless and his best chance of normal was gone the moment Desmond arrived in town, not Martin. If Desmond did, in fact, know Benny from of old (as Benny claims he did) then he’d have known about Elizabeth. If he didn’t then he wouldn’t have been long finding out. Do you think that Desmond (if he was the bad guy in that episode) would have just let her scoot away? Martin chose to go back to the diner. He chose to use Elizabeth. Again, this he did independently of Sam who was probably a few hundred miles in the other direction when Martin was doing his thing.
Also, genuine question, (and this has been bothering me for a while) do people actually [i]want[/i] there to be an explanation for Sam’s year off, his actions and decisions during that time etc? I mean, so many people (Sam fans and not so Sam fans alike) are saying that what he did was completely OCC. You’ve described him as the most selfish prick on the planet so I guess the question is, do people [i]want[/i] him to be, as you say, ‘the most selfish prick on the planet’ and then apologise for that or do they want there to be a reason that explains why he did what they did? I mean, if you think Sam was OCC in not looking for Dean then may I ask, why aren’t you okay with the possibility of mind manipulation? If you don’t think that what he did was OCC then do you believe that Sam has been the ’most selfish prick on the planet’ for a long time.
In relation to your statement about the fans leaving after this episode; I don’t know if it’s a reactionary one or if you truly believe that Dean fans will quit the show en masse because they didn’t get what they were looking for. However, if these ‘fans’ are only interested in an apology and not an explanation then it might be best to let them off.
[quote]So i did not see sam apologizing. I did not see a well written or logical episode…….So Sam is unapologetic, unrepentant and unable to do these trials on his own. Sam only said maybe there was more to Benny than was originally thought. Not an apology. [/quote]
So, seeing Sam apologise is what defines a well written or logical episode for you? wunderpat, does the reason why he did what he did not interest you at all?
I thought they made the plan to get in (and out) together. That’s why they went to the reaper. However, things changed and a new plan was needed. It happens. That’s why they work best [i]together[/i]. And in hindsight, wasn’t it a very good thing that both Sam and Dean didn’t go with the reaper because if they did they’d both be stuck in Purgatory along with Bobby.
And again, what does Sam have to apologise for re Benny? Should Bobby also apologise to Dean for not trusting Benny when he first met him? Sam acted with Benny as Dean acted with Ruby. We didn’t see Dean automatically trust Ruby (or Lenore) just because his brother did? He didn’t trust her until he had reason to trust her aka after she had proven herself to him.
Out of interest, if the positions were reversed, do you think Dean would be able to do the trials without Sam helping him?
Add to that, the reaper wanted a favour from both Sam and Dean, ‘You two are resourceful’. In relation to the favour with Naomi, she certainly does. Perhaps that might a reason for all those ‘Dean fans’ who are planning on leaving after this episode to stick around?
[quote]If moose stomped his foot to get his own purgatory story, he didn’t get what he wanted. Sam looked like a fish out of water. Dean owned purgatory. Dean was every monster ‘s worst nightmare. Sam looked Absolutely ridiculous.
He also looked unheroic, prideful, and like the biggest, most ungrateful prick on the planet by the end of the episode. [/quote]
‘If moose stomped his foot…..’ Would you kindly explain what you mean by that, please wunderpat.
And he might have looked ridiculous, unheroic, prideful and the biggest, most ungrateful prick on the planet to you but to me Sam looked pretty damned competent while in Purgatory. He wasn’t there anywhere near as long as Dean so it’s possible that Dean built up a reputation (though it’s strange that the three vampires knew who Sam was) but he dealt with whatever crossed his path. What more could he do? Also, he wanted to get Benny out. He was urging Benny to hurry on and cut his arm but Benny had turned him down ever before the vampires came upon them. So I’m not sure where you feel Sam was ungrateful.
[quote]…….Also Dean’s plan was to resurrect Benny. Dean was desperate but there is no indication that he doesn’t value Benny (he surely does). All this proved is that Benny is a far bigger and better soul than Sam. [/quote] Does it? How? I thought it proved that Benny wanted to go back to Purgatory and this was a way for him to do it.
Also, [i]would[/i] Dean resurrect Benny? Benny made a decision to go back to Purgatory and to stay there. He had the chance to say no, he had the chance to leave; he didn’t. I’m hoping Dean doesn’t bring him back because if he does it would bring Dean right back to where he was at the end of season 2 when he brought Sam back.
[quote]He’s so selfish! How dare Sam deprive Dean of his desperation fuelled desire to die![/quote]
Tim, really, I just can’t…. 😆 😀
Right, now that I’ve reached the end of your post, Tim, I just wanted to say bravo.
I was attempting to say more or less the same things in my slightly more condensed post above, but you’ve already done it wonderfully, so thank you.
Great post Tim.
Tim – well put!!!
You nailed it, Tim!
Tim, again
Standing ovation!!!!!!!
You nailed…
Congrats….
And couldn’t agree more with you in every single word you posted…
Cla ; }
Thanks Tim, well put!
Tim, wonderful rant. Really wonderful. 😆
YES! Thank You!
This is not my all time favorite ep. (that would be the Hitler ep.) but it is a fairly solid piece of work if you’re not watching it through the “Sam is total D**k ” lens.
It has been a recurring theme I’ve seen on other boards that Sam is OOC and is a total…whatever this season, but I’m just not seeing any of that so it’s puzzling to me where all ofthis anger is coming from. But even so, it’s the writers who should be blamed for it not the characters.
Thank you for trying to bring a little sanity to the arguement.
wunderpat, I’m putting you on notice. You know that character bashing doesn’t go over well here and never has. Since this is a let’s speculate and the rules are looser, I’m allowing this one post. Most of it raised good points about the episode. But lay off knocking down Sam to build up Dean. That is a HUGE rule on this board, no Sam vs. Dean.
A rule that I am totally board with. Really this bro vs bro is so season 4. Hearing it over and over again is nothing but annoying.
[quote]A rule that I am totally board with. Really this bro vs bro is so season 4. Hearing it over and over again is nothing but annoying.[/quote]
Yes, it gets really old; the same stuff over and over and over and over and over and over again….
🙁
What makes you think “moose” stomped his foot to get his own purgatory story? He was not in Purgatory as long as Dean was. I would think if he would have been stuck in Purgatory for a year he would have come out the same as Dean. For the few monsters he did encounter Sam held his ground and managed to kill them.
I am guessing from your comments that you are not a Sam fan. To each his own. However, if you are a fan of Sam, sorry that I took your comments as you were not. I was also happy to see Sam admit he understood Dean’s friendship with Benny and that it was alright with him that Dean did not burn Benny’s bones. I believe there is way more to why Sam did not look for Dean. Too many references are being thrown out there. Hopefully this will be addressed. This Sam fan is loving where his storyline is going!
[quote]If moose stomped his foot to get his own purgatory story, he didn’t get what he wanted. [/quote]
It seems the only way to understand this is that you are implying that Jared fought for a change in storyline. I think this is an extremely unfair interpretation with no evidence whatsoever. Especially since the actors have always said they have little to no input in the writing and certainly not such an important point as this. Also Jared is, and always has been, very supportive of other actors standout moments in episodes (while I think he often gets overlooked) and seems very modest about his own role.
Part of my interpretation is that, as you say ‘Sam’ doesn’t come out of any of this storyline (at the moment) smelling of roses – JP isn’t terribly good at this machiavellian stuff is he?
Everyone is entitled to their opinions of the characters and their motives but I really don’t see what is the point of bring the actors wishes into it.
Of course if I have misinterpreted what you mean I apologise.
[quote]JP isn’t terribly good at this machiavellian stuff is he?[/quote]
😀
Well said!
It is obvious that you hate Sam’s character, so I won’t even try to debate about Sam’s rights or wrongs because I will definitely won’t make you change your mind.
But I have to say one thing about fans and I’m not referring to you, but in general. I’m really tired of some “Dean” fans always complaining and threatening of quit watching, yet they’re still here complaining more and more each time…
What I saw the whole season was bro fans being pissed because the PTB made sure to screw the bro bond really good this season (the first half at least). And these are the majority. Not the few loud EDGs or ESGs who watch the show only for one of the brothers.
If that’s the reason you watch of course you’ll be miserable the whole time because the show is about TWO brothers. It’s about Dean and Sam. Not about Dean and Cas or Dean and Benny or Dean himself or Sam himself.
And no matter what haters say (and thank you writers for making sure to feed them this season) it’s canon that Sam loves Dean and would do anything for him, just like Dean does.
Sam is Dean’s #1 priority and Dean is Sam’s #1 priority. When you accept that, you’ll be able to enjoy the show. If you can’t accept that, it would be best for you to quit watching, because honestly watching something that makes you feel so bad is the definition of masochism…
Touche
Oh I wouldnt worry about that [b]Wunderpat[/b] they wouldnt have Sam’s thinking and actions be protected by being controlled that is left for Castiel so that we dont think ill of him.
As for Sam’s selfish year well that depends if you think Dean was selfish in his year off or if you think Sam as a individual who saved the world and suffered for it then was nearly driven insane either doesnt have the right to normal or he does. I might of not liked Sam not looking and I dont respect some of the way Sam has been presented but I dont understand Sam wanting normal is seen as some selfish act that the character is inflicting on the world.
Ooooh, I dunno. God, the more I think about it the more I think I’m turning into an awful nitpicking wagon. There’s a some stuff I didn’t like (mostly continuity stuff cos that stuff [i]bothers [/i]me) but some I did like. And God, the episode went so fast. It was freaking chocoblock. Pace yourself, kids!
First of all, Crowley dictating who goes up and who goes down? Big no no. I mean, seriously big no no. Rules?? What freaking rules? Jeez, it’d nearly be better to live your life full of depravity and debauchery because that way Crowley might like you (man/woman after his own heart) and send you to heaven.
Maybe it’s the RC teachings I got (and didn’t really pay attention in) but from what I can recall there’s only one way to go from Purgatory and that’s up (Heaven). Purgatory was where you were purified of your sins (hence the fire and blood and torment and pokers and shit like that) so that you were fit to enter heaven (no moral sin on you) so no way to hell from there. I found this new concept (Purgatory is a back door to hell) most disconcerting.
And it’s so freaking easy to get to Purgatory, and to hell! God, thinking back, you had to die, make a deal, be rescued by whole hosts of angels, wait for an eclipse, get the blood from behind a door that was never opened etc and now you can just stroll in and out at your ease (and take whatever you want with you)! All you need these days is a reaper on your books so why was it so difficult to get the Purgatory souls in season 6? A crossroads demon knew how to get to Purgatory so surely Crowley, as a one-time crossroads demon, would have been privy to that? Plus, Castiel could see reapers (in season 5) so it wouldn’t have been a stretch for him to find one, especially not when they’re hanging out at the side of the road!
Though maybe it was only so easy for Sam to enter Purgatory because he’s still, technically, a monster?
Would Death not be all over Crowley’s ass now, given that he has killed his employee? Death promised to reap God one day so maybe. Maybe Crowley is God (oh please, that’s not the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard)? And we do know that Death is rather powerful so Crowley should gird his lions! Though I guess Sam and Dean won’t owe Ajay that favour any more so score!
I wonder if Dean remembers that Kevin is (was) a vegan? And did Kevin eat that burger or was he just picking at it? I’d say it’d be hard to find vegan food in the eateries that Sam and Dean frequent.
Yeah, I was with you on Bobby. The CW really don’t do secrets, do they! And how easy was he to find? Four doors in. Jeez, that was a bit freaking convenient. That ‘I knew you’d come’ girl was definitely the freakiest out of all of them. The rest of hell was a tad medieval. Seriously, the whole chained to the wall, dripping in blood, putting in hooks all over place is straight out of the Spanish Inquisition! (Now those guys were twisted….)
I’m kinda glad that Bobby didn’t come back. I feel he’d be surplus to requirements on the show now. Where’d he even stay, the bunker? God, that would be awkward. Plus, it’d just make the Bunker a new ‘Bobbys’ and I like the bunker being theirs.
Many angels were killed storming Purgatory/Heaven to rescue Dean/Castiel but it’s not a bother to get Sam out of the Cage or Purgatory?
Though I guess Naomi now has Bobby right where she wants him and, if she so decides, could use him as leverage against Sam and Dean (if Naomi is a bad girl, and she might not be because bad is based on ‘perception’).
I guess we’re never going to address how Benny knew about the portal. Was it always just hanging around or was he privy to some special knowledge? Did it only appear when humans were near it (and if so then how did Benny know about it?) or is it there the whole time, just waiting?
Sam was obviously born in a barn. Dude, you now know how easy it is to get from hell to Purgatory to earth would you not close the bloody door behind you?
Now that Benny is whiter and more pure than the driven snow (how boring!), why are Sam and Dean still hunting monsters? As I’m sure Jack McCoy (mmmm, Jack McCoy) once said ‘It is better that one hundred guilty persons should escape than one innocent person should suffer’ (or words to that effect). Should the same principle not apply to ‘monsters’ (if that is indeed what they are…..)? What if the next monster they kill is another Benny?
I also thought that Benny’s end (while being remarkably tame and very Mary Sueish (thanks, Super!) was fitting. He’s back where he feels he belongs. This was alluded to in 8.01 when he was finding it very difficult topside. So perhaps topside (normal?) was a pipedream for Benny. It was something that drove him when he was in Purgatory. Perhaps ‘normal’ is wherever you feel most comfortable, wherever you feel most at home, whether that be a MoL bunker or in a car or in the suburbs. Perhaps this is ultimately what the tablets will bring about, ensuring everyone and everything is in their own place; at ‘home’ (so to speak).
I dare say that Sam’s head is in bits at this stage. He’s told by Bobby to live his life. He and Dean have an agreement to not look for each other. He adheres to their wishes, and he’s wrong for doing so. He’s told back in season 3 to do the Winchester thing, kill monsters yadda yadda and he was wrong to do so. He’s been told his entire life to not trust monsters. He’s learned the hard way to not trust monsters. Every time he trusted a monster he was wrong to do so. As soon as he doesn’t trust a monster then he’s….. wrong to do so! Oh, this is ridiculously funny.
I’m sorry, but did Crowley say he got Kevin’s address from Mrs Tran’s smartphone?? Jesus wept…..
Maybe now that Sam and Dean both love Benny it’ll be safe to bring him back as Castiel II next season!
I’m really expecting a Dumbledore style hand out of Sam at the end of the season. All that red glow and not a bit of charring?
Since when was Crowley able to get into Kevin’s head? How? Yeah, I know it has throwbacks of Sam and Lucifer but there actually was a reason for that. Is Crowley linked to Kevin in some way or was it all just hallucinations? Damn, what was in that burger Dean gave him??
Oh man, there’s going to be a whole slew of fanfiction about how Bobby got all up in Sam! (Super, I have a prompt for youuuuuuu!!)
Dean is confusing me (again). He wants normal for Sam. He wants normal for Krissy and co but he and Kevin aren’t ever going to get it? Dude, pick a side!
And yes, you’re bossy and you and Sam are remarkably dismissive. Did you guys ever consider the possibility that Crowley [i]might[/i] be in Kevin’s head? I mean, that probably wouldn’t even be the strangest thing you came across that [i]day[/i].
Though I did like the Bobby and Sam scenes; they were nice. And hell was appropriately eerie. My favourite hell is still the Dean is hell version. That was tremendously imaginative. While this hell was still cool to look at it felt a little by the book.
And I’m totally with you about Adam. A simple line ‘Adam wasn’t in the Cage’ or ‘Adam’s soul is in heaven’ or something like that, by anyone, would suffice! Hell, ask Naomi about him.
Thanks for this, Ardeospina.
[quote]I dare say that Sam’s head is in bits at this stage. He’s told by Bobby to live his life. He and Dean have an agreement to not look for each other. He adheres to their wishes, and he’s wrong for doing so. He’s told back in season 3 to do the Winchester thing, kill monsters yadda yadda and he was wrong to do so. He’s been told his entire life to not trust monsters. He’s learned the hard way to not trust monsters. Every time he trusted a monster he was wrong to do so. As soon as he doesn’t trust a monster then he’s….. wrong to do so! Oh, this is ridiculously funny.[/quote]You have articulated this perfectly.Nowadays If Sam is agreeing and Dean disagrees with some thinking then it is bad
[quote][quote]I dare say that Sam’s head is in bits at this stage. He’s told by Bobby to live his life. He and Dean have an agreement to not look for each other. He adheres to their wishes, and he’s wrong for doing so. He’s told back in season 3 to do the Winchester thing, kill monsters yadda yadda and he was wrong to do so. He’s been told his entire life to not trust monsters. He’s learned the hard way to not trust monsters. Every time he trusted a monster he was wrong to do so. As soon as he doesn’t trust a monster then he’s….. wrong to do so! Oh, this is ridiculously funny.[/quote]You have articulated this perfectly.Nowadays If Sam is agreeing and Dean disagrees with some thinking then it is bad[/quote]
I wonder if the writers are even aware they are doing this?
[quote][quote]I dare say that Sam’s head is in bits at this stage. He’s told by Bobby to live his life. He and Dean have an agreement to not look for each other. He adheres to their wishes, and he’s wrong for doing so. He’s told back in season 3 to do the Winchester thing, kill monsters yadda yadda and he was wrong to do so. He’s been told his entire life to not trust monsters. He’s learned the hard way to not trust monsters. Every time he trusted a monster he was wrong to do so. As soon as he doesn’t trust a monster then he’s….. wrong to do so! Oh, this is ridiculously funny.[/quote]You have articulated this perfectly.Nowadays If Sam is agreeing and Dean disagrees with some thinking then it is bad[/quote]
This sums up the Catch 22 nature of Sam’s existence. Dean is always proven right, Sam is always proven wrong. And Sam gets not one friend, ever.
Oh boo hoo
Eeeehehehehhehheee!
(will comment properly later, still laughing at the absurdity)
Hi Tim. Too lazy to quote, you get the cliff notes version 😛
[i] Re: Crowley making the rules.[/i]
Oh, I don’t know. Him being the King of Hell and all that, maybe he has some leeway on certain souls. Maybe he’s made some deal with some upstairs’ personnel and can get a few souls heading that way downstairs instead. Who knows. Also, there’s the possibility that since Bobby did sell his soul once, that once your number is up, that’s where you go regardless.. I personally thought that ghosts went to Purgatory but maybe that was just for Monsters with fangs and spikes and stuff…
Also, Raphael did mention in The Man Who Would be King that if a man is devout, s/he’ll get upstairs no matter what they’ve done. So possibly Bobby just wasn’t a believer enough?
[i]Re:Purgatory being a truckstop to Heaven.[/i]
The reality in SPN is not ours, aka they make the rules of their own universe. They have made it so that Purgatory is a prison for monsters. Nothing more. Like Hell is a prison (made of flesh and blood and bone, thanks Meg) for demons. Heaven is most likely a home for the angels. But could be a prison too. Maybe that’s what the angel tablet does. They have also made it so that Purgatory is Hell adjecent. So be it. I have less beef with stuff like this when I try not to compare it to the world and beliefs I’m living in. Sam and Dean do not exist in our reality, so the same lore and rules may not always apply.
I have nothing to add about your bit about the easiness of travelling between these prisons. I did find it very, very, very sloppy and retconnish. They really thrashed their own rules with that one. It was my biggest issue with this episode. They could’ve put some thought into it and make it work without making it seem like entire seasons stories had been for naught. Maybe that you can only travel as a weak spirit or something? The reaper bit was also very dumb. Maybe he was some kinda different reaper? Maybe monsters have reapers too, but not the same as humans? I don’t know. It was sloppy, sloppy.
Also, was Sam there for a year since time goes by differently in hell? Don’t know about Purgatory though.
Heh, thanks for the Mary Sue bit but the ultimate kudos for that goes to [b]eilf[/b], your irish frenemy, who introduced me to that word. So thanks eilf, couldn’t have done it without you, mate! I’m planning on using that word a lot 😀
[i]Re: Sam is a mess.[/i]
Me concur (thanks Homer). I did feel a bit “huh?” on Bobbys little “put down” about not looking for Dean when he himself was so “get a life and stop fretting about your brother” last season! Now, he’s all “I made that rule but it’s not a rule, it’s just a “rule”!”! Confused much?
Sam seems to be in a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” -situation. It really looks like though, that actual damnation (hell/cage/ what have you) would be the easiest for him! Less head breaking than reality. 🙂
And, demons wouldn’t know about Bobbys dark, deep secrets? When demon possesses you, I thought it’d know everything about you? I’m sure there were a few Toris around to torture him too, cut them where it hurts, right? 🙂
[i]Mrs. Tran and her smartphone.[/i] Ah. Those smartphones are evil I tell you! Maybe they just got his number and traced it, like normal people do? Or possessed her and got it of her mind?
But I AM having doubts over whether it was really Crowley or not. Maybe it was Naomi like Ardeospina suspected… Hmmm…
And thanks but no thanks on the prompt, you weirdo (it’s not actual namecalling mods, she truly is a weirdo sometimes). 😛 You want it so bad, you write it. Tell me once you’ve finished, okay, so I can run the other way. Or walk briskly 😉
And count me in on the people who’d like a shoutout to Adam! He’s your brother! Care, damnit! Go rescue his soul into heaven, he’s an innocent!
Nice comment Tim. Made me laugh so bad. Oh the absurdity that is our Show, sometimes. *giggles*
Ta taa.
Super, I don’t know why but “walk briskly” is incredibly funny to me right now.
I think I might be over-tired.
Does anyone think that Kevin might just be hallucinating off those pep pills Dean left him? Maybe he’s a drug addict now? I am pretty sure that Crowley doesn’t have him though. Maybe Naomi and maybe just his own mind breaking down from drugs and stress. I am not sure why the boys don’t just take him to the bunker so that they can keep an eye on him. It seems like the logical thing to do. I feel pretty sorry for Kevin trapped in that rusting steel hulk all alone making himself nut with worry and stress. Yeah, both boys were pretty dismissive of Kevin… Dean especially seems pretty hard on him and unconcerned by how rough a state he’s in.
[quote]Does anyone think that Kevin might just be hallucinating off those pep pills Dean left him? Maybe he’s a drug addict now? I am pretty sure that Crowley doesn’t have him though. Maybe Naomi and maybe just his own mind breaking down from drugs and stress. I am not sure why the boys don’t just take him to the bunker so that they can keep an eye on him. It seems like the logical thing to do. I feel pretty sorry for Kevin trapped in that rusting steel hulk all alone making himself nut with worry and stress. Yeah, both boys were pretty dismissive of Kevin… Dean especially seems pretty hard on him and unconcerned by how rough a state he’s in.[/quote]
Poor Kevin probably is getting very little sleep. Feels a bit like what they tried to do with Sam when he was supposed to go bonkers from hallucinating Lucifer 24/7.
It just never made ANY sense why the boys wouldn’t bring him to the MOL. Its protected. The boys are there often enough they can help Kevin out some….provide some human interaction……
E, it easily could have been a hallucination. I think the reason they don’t take him to bunker is more show logistics than show logic. If he was at the bunker than Kevin would need to be there for every small scene at the bunker or they’d have to write around it.
I’m not bashing on Dean but I’m having a real problem with they way they are having him treat Kevin. He practically hovering over Sam’s every move, he’s so worried. But he just keeps pushing this like 19 year-old harder and harder. It seems very un-Dean-like to me. At the beginning of the season I figured he was just in warrior-mode and having trouble pulling out of it, but now the contrast in his behavior is very glaring. I seriously hope this is leading somewhere.
Hey Kelly, this is a good point. I don’t really understand Dean’s reaction to Kevin either. He’s usually so great with kids and teens that his gruffness and impatience seems strange to me too. I could understand it earlier in the season as well when Dean was in PTSD mode, but he just had a whole series of interactions with that group of teens in the last episode where he was so gentle, caring and concerned with Krissy with all the kids, but Krissy especially, that his treatment of Kevin makes no sense to me.
E, yeah I really am beginning to think this is a deliberate plot point, because it doesn’t really fit Dean’s character at all, IMO. Like you said he is always great with kids and teenagers. But he seems to see Kevin as a tool to be utilized, instead of a teenager.
That is a good point, Kelly. Maybe Dean is pushing Kevin harder because he’s the one translating the tablets, and therefore the trials. Maybe Dean just wants the whole trial thing over with, so the more he pushes Kevin, the quicker he’ll figure out the last trial, and then they can finish them quicker?
[quote]Ooooh, I dunno. God, the more I think about it the more I think I’m turning into an awful nitpicking wagon. /quote]
Is it nitpicky to wonder how Dean drove to Maine and was on-time for Sam’s arrival – after killing his friend Benny? I mean – drive distance between the houseboat (Warsaw, Missouri) and Southern Maine is more than 1,700 miles. (By my calculations he’d have had to drive more than 70 miles an hour for 24 hours without time to gas up or pee.) I admit I had the same problem with Sam getting from Louisiana to West Texas within a night after Citizen Fang. Is it really so much to ask that writers inject a tiny nod to reality or the intelligence of their audience into their writing…or maybe google the distances?
Sorry – I obviously suck at quoting:(
Remember Kevin making and eating hot dogs before the first break in decoding the tablets? Guess he’s not vegan anymore. Lol
[img]http://www.almostvegan.com/archives/images/smartdog_prod.gif[/img]
And they’re yummy!
Yuck! Well, no wonder poor Kevin is going crazy! LMAO! Have to go back and see if they showed that package, damn it. Lol
I thought the episode was average at best, mainly because of the continuity errors people have mentioned before. I loved the Bobby and Sam moments, and i love what they have done with Hell, its exactly how i imagined it (maybe that was the problem). I also loved Benny and Deans interactions in this episode, I’m not a huge fan of Benny’s but after watching this I actually find myself wanting him back!
I thought they wasted a lot of good opportunity with this episode. I mean Sam was in Hell and Purgatory, just think of all those people Sam’s wasted, it could have been a big demon reunion!
I’ve heard someone say that they were on the edge of their seat while watching it. But I failed to feel the suspense, as i knew Sam would be rescued. It would of been more of a shock, if Crowley trapped Sam inside Hell…
That brings me onto my next point, Crowley didn’t really do much to get Sam out of Hell, he was complaining throughout the episode that a Winchester being in Hell could have horrible consequences, but i didn’t see him breaking his back trying to get him out :/ King of Hell? Unable to pull someone from hell?
I like the point that [b]Tim the enchanter[/b] made, maybe it was so easy because Sam is technically a monster. Not just any monster though, he is still the boy king, i thought that would of made a little bit of a difference…I also like the little nod to Sam’s dark past when Bobby confronted him, its about time someone mentioned that.
I think there is more about Sam’s year off from hunting than people make out, he looked very uncomfortable discussing it, with Bobby. It just felt off for me..
I like the idea of these trials being fake, but what would they be doing to Sam?
I know this has been brought up on earlier threads but next week it looks like Sam is going to be unconscious, so they can shove another ‘Dean is the main character now’ episode our way. and i was really hoping for a little bit about Sam’s actual feelings! He does still have them doesn’t he? It really is starting to bug me! :/ hmphh
And in response to the comment about Sam being prideful and stubborn, he’s always been like that haha! Thats what makes Sam who he is…
[quote]……..he is still the boy king…..[/quote]
While I think we are (long) gone from that story, there were two (maybe throwaway, maybe not) statements during this episode that made me think ‘Huh….’
The first was the dark haired girl in hell. As soon as she saw Sam she said “You came, I knew you could. I’ve been praying for it forever”. This (to me) reeks of the whole ‘coming of the king who will save us all’, type thing.
The second was when Bobby was saying ‘Yeah, cos there’s nothing screwy going on up there! (about heaven) and Sam said ‘I wish I made the rules’. We’ve seen Crowley, as King of Hell (we think) make the rules…..
And who is to say that the king of hell has to be evil? Imagine what the place would be like with Sam as the King. They’d all be made archive books and drink wheatgrass if they were naughty! Plus he’d ensure a way for Dean to get to Purgatory whenever he wanted (to see Benny) and to Hell to say ‘Hi’. Could be a win win all round!
I thought so too, to say they were really jamming in all of the plot lines into this one episode, and struggling, i thought it weird that they would highlight something like that, that girl in the cell got a whole 2 minutes of screen time,…seems a little off? :/
I agree, they really did seem to making a point of highlighting what she was saying… and the fact that she seemed to recognize Sam. Sam himself thought she mistook him for someone else, but what if she didn’t???? hmmm.
Not just that..while the camera was on her, she kept repeating what she was saying, clarification perhaps? just in case the viewers missed it. She also ominously repeated it while he was walking further into the corridor…
I thought that it was going to turn out that what looked like Bobby wasn’t Bobby, but a demon in disguise and the woman would turn out to be a disguised Bobby. But no, that would have taken some creativity that the writers couldn’t muster up.
[quote]I thought that it was going to turn out that what looked like Bobby wasn’t Bobby, but a demon in disguise and the woman would turn out to be a disguised Bobby. But no, that would have taken some creativity that the writers couldn’t muster up.[/quote]
I was hoping for something similar: Bobby not being what he seemed. I have to say that I thought Bobby seemed relatively stable and unscathed for a soul that had been in Hell for a longer period of time than either Dean or John Winchester. I had expected to see more of a broken or feral Bobby, in the end the Bobby we got was rather more chilled than I would have thought likely 😮
[quote]Not just that..while the camera was on her, she kept repeating what she was saying, clarification perhaps? just in case the viewers missed it. She also ominously repeated it while he was walking further into the corridor…[/quote]
Didn’t all those in their cages keep up whatever sounds they were making after Sam walked by? And the ones in front of him too? Or am I hallucinating my experience in Hell in this episolde?
You could be right..i haven’t re-watched the episode, but i will do! 😀 I just remember hers being repeated very creepily as he continued down the corridor..
What you just said reminded me of this little nugget
[url]http://browse.deviantart.com/art/S-craps-07-184636394[/url]
Not too far off actually …
That’s gold!
hee, hee, that’s hilarious, [b]Gaby[/b] 😀
Genius!
I noticed that too, Tim. It definitely had a weird aspect to it.
Hi Arde.
Great review, I really like your theory, I too did wonder if it really was Crowley harrassing poor Kev… And did he take off or was he taken? Hmmm….
I personally liked this episode. Sure, a few plot holes were ‘big’ and there were a few issues I had, but the core, the brotherly love was there. I really felt the emotion so in the end, I was quite a happy puppy 🙂
The pace was quite rapid at times but I actually prefer that, when so many eppies have moved slower than a snail this season. I just wish that the overall pace would be more even and not so hyper-hyper vs. crawling on broken glass with no arms & legs.
I liked seeing Bobby again. I’m glad he got sent to Heaven and have some peace with his wife. JB was fab, as usual.
Crowley was also deliciously evil, it’s been a while, for me anyways.
The special effects were amazing, I really liked them. Also, I really liked the Hell set, a creepy, endless hallway with some apropriate wailing and grossness. I was happy.
Both Js were really superb, I really felt their performance resonate with me. I was glad that they stayed united through everything. And poor Sam! I was really worried when he did the trial spell and hunkered down in pain. I dread what the last trial will be like.
The hug. Oh, the hug. It was fab. Very reminiscent of the older seasons. They both just looked so relieved!
I’m not even going to mention the few issues I had since I’m on a good mood and prefer to stay that way (for now anyways, hee!). In the end, they weren’t ‘so’ bad that they would damage my enjoyment. I can think of ways to make them spin if I really wanna, so no worries there.
Ross-Lemming and Buckner really delivered this time, I’m really glad.
Hi Super, I am in complete agreement with your post, I really liked this episode. There were many, many good things in this one and I just want to keep that feeling for awhile. Sam was vey heroic and the fact that Benny helped him get out did not diminish that in the least, IMO. I’m not up for entering the fray this week so thank you for seeing it the same way! 🙂
I agree with your report. I just want to add, for me, this episode brought up the following questions:
what about the enochian symbols carved into Sam and Dean’s ribs? Was it a forgotten condition like Dean’s handprint was that time ? Or is it like in Monster Movie when Dean said being brought back to earth from Hell, all his physical injuries disappeared?
Will Sam be mad that Kevin is gone thereby delaying his third trial (possibly). I get the impression Sam really wants to get this whole business done so he can retire…
[quote]I agree with your report. I just want to add, for me, this episode brought up the following questions:
what about the enochian symbols carved into Sam and Dean’s ribs? Was it a forgotten condition like Dean’s handprint was that time ? Or is it like in Monster Movie when Dean said being brought back to earth from Hell, all his physical injuries disappeared?
Will Sam be mad that Kevin is gone thereby delaying his third trial (possibly). I get the impression Sam really wants to get this whole business done so he can retire…[/quote]
Yes, I think Sam would like to get this finished up but deep down he realizes he’s not going to survive this.
[quote]I agree with your report. I just want to add, for me, this episode brought up the following questions:
what about the enochian symbols carved into Sam and Dean’s ribs? Was it a forgotten condition like Dean’s handprint was that time ? Or is it like in Monster Movie when Dean said being brought back to earth from Hell, all his physical injuries disappeared?[/quote]
Robbie Thompson was asked about the sigils. He said that nobody ever told him they existed. They have been thrown in the trashbin of useless continuity.
That’s too bad–I guess the PTB couldn’t continue having Sam and Dean invisible to angels. With that glaring mistake of not having hand print on Dean’s shoulder, they cleared their throats and said, ‘oh, it disappeared when Cas healed Dean at the cemetary’. Therefore, I will use that excuse to explain the apparent ‘disappearance’ of rib markings on him as well as the hand print. As for Sam, Cas healed Sam in s6ep7). I guess that will have to do;-)
Really?!? No-one passed on that useful bit of mythos to one of the writers?!?! That’s sloppy.
I mean, don’t television shows like SPN have ‘bibles’ with useful info and character history? I always thought that was the case. Shows what I know 🙁
Oh dear, this is just making think about all the things I’ve studied about proper succession management and good knowledge management. It seems strange to me that the SPN creative team wouldn’t have made more of an effort to implement strategies to ensure that those taking over the running (and writing) of the show were completely up to date on everything that had gone on before. 😮
I’m assuming you’re being flippant, but I the sigils are easily explained away before Thompson started to write for the show. Sam body was restored when Cas brought him back. And Cas healed Dean in SS so he could have easily taken the sigils then since they were no longer necessary.
I read a theory about the sigils in the boy’s ribs (or lack thereof) that I really liked: after three years the ribs have ‘healed’ themselves and the sigils have faded away. It’s very likely that something like this could happen….
Wow… they certainly packed a lot in to this one; could have easily made this a two-parter. Really good episode but will have to watch it a few more times before everything settles in. Once Sam landed in purgatory with the reaper/taxi driver (did he call him a hell coyote?), you knew Benny was going to have to be the one to get him back and that he’d stay behind – Benny was out of place in the real world; glad to see that he turned out to be one of the good guys and that he didn’t have a hidden agenda.
Great to see Bobby again. Have a suspicion that him asking Sam about not looking for Dean indicates there will be a big reveal on that missing piece of the puzzle, hopefully later this season. Didn’t it look like Sam was going to say something about this but they were interrupted by the attack?
My biggest problem with canon inconsistencies was the fact that there was a secret back door between purgatory and hell. Crowley and Cas took a long time, and tortured a lot of things, before they figured out a way in to purgatory. Crowley was torturing everything but the kitchen sink – I’d have to think he would have tortured some reapers for information as well. This is just a little too convenient and, as Dick Roman said last year, “strains credulity”.
At the end, when Kevin was taken by Crowley, I do think it was Crowley that took him, or Kevin was hallucinating the whole thing. I don’t think Naomi would have had to trick Kevin – When Kevin had been kidnapped earlier this year, he saw Crowley back down from Cas. While I don’t think Kevin necessarily trusts the angels, he would have known they could have protected him from Crowley. To that end, aren’t the angels supposed to protect the prophet and why wouldn’t they have known Kevin was in trouble? Or are their ranks so depleted now?
Naomi… wow, just not sure about her. Clearly she wants to see the gates of hell closed but she also wants to find the angel tablet to protect heaven. With access to the angel tablet, Sam and Dean would try to act on that as well. Glad to see that Dean doesn’t trust her, even after she helped them out at the end.
i found this eppy quite intriguing when it came to sam….
this is the second episode out of three now that they brought up sam’s year, but in a questionable fashion.
after everything sam told meg about his year, she questioned sam hitting a dog and stopping…it seemed so ridiculous, even to her, that sam would stop hunting at all, let alone over a dog. or as i perceived it, she found it odd that he even hit the dog at all….
then we have bobby. now let’s just see the big picture here. there wasn’t much time for talk in purgatory so bobby pretty much got the cliff note version. he too questioned sam about not looking…. excluding the nonsense that it was he who invented that non agreement agreement….it was this that stood out to me….. he seemed genuinely confused by sam. not only confused, but concerned. he literally told sam, that since he’s been gone that both boys have been riding off the rails. he flat out told sam that something wasn’t right with him.
that’s twice now in three weeks that it has been insinuated that there is something very off with sam…both by meg and now by bobby.
i think that’s very important…let’s face it, for 17 eps nobody gave a rat’s ass about sam’s year and now suddenly, in two out of three eps, not only does sam’s year come up, but it seems to me his sanity is questioned. this leads me to conclude that either:
a. sam’s been lying about not looking for dean. he did look but failed to find him, thus convincing himself that dean was dead. keeping silent makes sense because i’ve always felt that sam feels like a burden and disappointment to dean. this would be the second time he couldn’t save him. i think sam prefers dean’s wrath over his disappointment of yet again being unable to save him….dean’s speeches to sam re: benny pretty much confirmed that imo.
b. something happened to sam’s mind that night in the lab. sam literally broke and it wasn’t that the didn’t try to look for dean…it was that he couldn’t. he couldn’t because, mentally he was unable to. after everything that sam had just been through and dean being the final straw that might have broken this camel’s back, it’s perfectly understandable if sam had some kind of a breakdown which inevitably led to him hitting a dog.
or
c….naomi, or possibly someone else messing with sam’s head. i think this is a very possible scenario….because i still say there is no way sam would know how to do a reverse exorcism at the top of his head…especially if he supposedly hadn’t been hunting for a year.
so, still convinced more than ever that there is more to sam’s story than we are being told at the moment.
maybe it was crowley who messed with sam…he seems to have spies everywhere…all i know is something isn’t right.
i thought benny and dean were way over the top…stepping into romantic movie territory…seriously…what happened to no chick flick moments….i literally thought dean was going to kiss benny goodbye…i honestly think that there might have been more going on in purgatory with benny and dean than just fighting together…..dean’s speech to benny was more like husband/wife or lovers speak….hell he’s never talked to sam or even bobby that way…haven’t felt that sugary since i watched general hospital…..
so much for show’s canon….
nappi, I think this is really interesting. I’ve always believed there was more to Sam’s story than what we were shown, so if this kind of scenario comes to pass, I’ll be a really, really happy camper. And there’s that word floating around in my head again: Perception.
Maybe our and Sam’s perception on his “year off” is not accurate, either.
I don’t know, somehow I’m getting the vague feeling that all the pieces might be slowly coming together, and I have to say, if they do, I’ll be pretty freaking impressed.
[quote]nappi, I think this is really interesting. I’ve always believed there was more to Sam’s story than what we were shown, so if this kind of scenario comes to pass, I’ll be a really, really happy camper. And there’s that word floating around in my head again: Perception.
Maybe our and Sam’s perception on his “year off” is not accurate, either.
I don’t know, somehow I’m getting the vague feeling that all the pieces might be slowly coming together, and I have to say, if they do, I’ll be pretty freaking impressed.[/quote]
I’ve always thought that Sam wasn’t manipulated after Dean disappears, but that there was some level of manipulation in getting him “back in the game” (Amelia’s husband Don coming back after being declared dead, Amelia’s father’s rather harsh reaction to Sam when they met, etc.)
nappi, that’s what I said! See I knew I was crazy to think so. Why would they so pointedly bring it up twice so close to the finale unless they were planning on doing something with it.
njspnfan, I still think there might be 2 players on the board manipulating people. One who wants Sam and Dean in the game and one who doesn’t. That would explain why sometimes Sam is seemingly pulled out (dog) and other times pulled back in (Don).
[quote]nappi, I think this is really interesting. I’ve always believed there was more to Sam’s story than what we were shown, so if this kind of scenario comes to pass, I’ll be a really, really happy camper. And there’s that word floating around in my head again: Perception.
Maybe our and Sam’s perception on his “year off” is not accurate, either.
I don’t know, somehow I’m getting the vague feeling that all the pieces might be slowly coming together, and I have to say, if they do, I’ll be pretty freaking impressed.[/quote]
I totally agree with you and the previous poster. It’s suddenly been brought up twice, and Sam looks nervous and trying to change the subject both times it’s been brought up. He’s always seemed on edge when the matter came up. I’m really hoping it’s fixed and I’m even more excited than ever, because I was really upset about that.
It is clear to me that Sam did not handle Dean’s disappearance well at the end of season 7 just coming off his stint in a hospital for the mentally ill, even if Cas took on his memories. Meg referred to Sam’s hidden sadness in Goodbye Stranger. He appears to have roamed aimlessly in the Impala until he hit a dog which led to Amelia. I still think the scenery in those Samilia episodes was overly colorful. Maybe to offset the bleakness of Purgatory or maybe Sam’s brain was not well. How ill do we think he may be from the trials as well? Spitting blood is not a good sign and Cas talks about Sam being changed beyond his abilities. So will Naomi play a role? Next episode has Sam being ill and Dean( well no spoiler here) having to save his bacon. I hope there is more to Sam’s year and that the writers have been playing us all year, but maybe it is just a story that fell flat. I thought the Dean/Benny scene demonstrated that Dean would do anything to help Sam, even kill someone for whom he had a great bond. It was not as soapy as GH. I was not uncomfortable with these hear felt emotions and did not even speculate that more went on btwn Benny/Dean. There was no down time in Purgatory, but Benny’s soul was part of Dean, so it is like killing a piece of yourself- that is pretty emotional. So, respect your POV and sharing mine with you.
I am glad they cleared up the half demon tablet thing that was bugging a lot of us; Crowley mentioned that the half tablet that Kevin was working on had all the juicy stuff.
Thanks for the review Ardeo. I enjoyed the episode, I thought it had loads of things going on though, honestly it left me a little winded. Another great directing job by Guy Bee and superb photography by Serge Ladouceur. The writing team? Meh. They’ve redeemed themselves somewhat from their last foray IMO. But, yeah, quite a few plot holes guys! Alright, I’m going to bullet point the rest, cause I get to get to work! 😆
* Sam leaving his watch to mark the spot, didn’t he like need that to help him keep time? He could have left something else.
* I agree with many posters that Naomi probably has Kevin. She’s playing Dean, she needs the demon tablet and she needs Cass to bring her the angel one, so she’s getting on Dean’s good side.
* Finally a proper Sam & Dean hug!
* Benny sacrificing himself TWICE for the Winchesters. 😥
* Bobby going to Heaven. 🙂
* Close the friggin door to Hell, man!
* Re: the Winchesters walking in and out of Purgatory and Hell: they can go “where angels fear to tread” (sorry that was too easy) 😆
* Loved the portal to Purgatory, the FX was jaw dropping.
* Crowley saying “I am forever” sent chills down my spine.
* I didn’t expect it to be that easy to kill a reaper. Man, those angels blades have really been undersold!
* Dean should have taken Kevin’s fears a little more seriously.
* The CW screwed up by showing the preview with the reaper saying Bobby was in Hell. Millions of fans would have screamed “Bobbyyyyyyyy”, the scream heard around the world.
I actually thought that this ep was pretty good in many ways… or at least the good outweighed the bad for me. I absolutely adored the Sam and Bobby scenes! How Sam convinced Bobby that he was “real” Sam… and the hug… just lovely. How long has it been since we’ve seen Sam interact meaningful and emotionally with anyone other than Dean? It’s been ages! Loved the gut-puncher scene between Benny and Dean too, very affective. And the boys’s reunion scene at the end of the ep? That’s the hug that’s been missing since episode one. I really being able to see a little bit about all of the various issues going on; we got to see what Crowley is up to, what Naomi is doing (anyone buy the “really, I’m on your side” turnaround? Yeah, me neither!) and what Kevin is experiencing. All of this seemed pretty balanced to me, and yet the episode still felt like it was essentially about Sam and Dean.
Still and all there were some annoying, head scratching even eye rolling moments that were irritating and even down right head scratching. What is with Ajay? Since when can a reaper just stroll around the world visible to anyone and everyone? I don’t care if he’s a “coyote” he’s still a reaper and they can generally only be seen by angels and demons and by humans only in the moment of their death. This waters down one of the core mythologies of the show IMO and makes it weak and less interesting. And Crowley can kill a reaper with an angel blade and the death of the reaper looks like the death of an angel???? Huh? That seems like a pretty important detail and yet it was played out like we weren’t supposed to notice. Since when to do reapers die anyway? Wouldn’t that piss off Death? I’m sure even Crowley doesn’t want to trod on Death’s toes.
And I agree with everyone else. It sure was easy for the Winchesters to get into both Hell and Purgatory. Piff! We’re here! Why couldn’t they have had Sam do something like Dean did, have to actually die to get all of this to happen? Why aren’t the stakes higher? It just seemed too easy, unless they are all still being played by some force that we don’t know about yet.
And while plot wise I liked the idea that Dean had to go to Benny to ask him with help with getting Sam out of purgatory, but it does occur to me that Dean wouldn’t have had to if he had just told Sam about what was going on down there to begin with. I think it’s now pretty clear that Dean never told Sam anything, about Benny, about purgatory or about how he got out of purgatory, because Sam was clueless about the human portal and needed Benny to go back to Purgatory and tell him about it. If Dean had told him anything at all, Sam could have been on the lookout for the portal from the moment he arrived and then waltzed back out on his own without Benny’s help. So, I am getting a little tired of hearing how awful Sam was not not look for Dean over and over and for Dean to never seem to realize that if he’d just been up front with Sam about purgatory in the first place then there would have been no need to chop off Benny’s head. Both boys have made mistakes in their year apart, but I only see Sam getting any grief over it.
I think that the episode should have been a two parter… given Sam more time and more struggle to get to hell, get Bobby and get back so that it wouldn’t have seemed so easily done. BTW, are the portal to Purgatory and the gate to Hell still open? Can the boys just stroll back and forth now?
[quote] And Crowley can kill a reaper with an angel blade and the death of the reaper looks like the death of an angel???? [/quote]
Well, reapers could be called “Angels of Death”, couldn’t they….?
Too much of a stretch? :-*
And while plot wise I liked the idea that Dean had to go to Benny to ask him with help with getting Sam out of purgatory, but it does occur to me that Dean wouldn’t have had to if he had just told Sam about what was going on down there to begin with. I think it’s now pretty clear that Dean never told Sam anything, about Benny, about purgatory or about how he got out of purgatory, because Sam was clueless about the human portal and needed Benny to go back to Purgatory and tell him about it. If Dean had told him anything at all, Sam could have been on the lookout for the portal from the moment he arrived and then waltzed back out on his own without Benny’s help. So, I am getting a little tired of hearing how awful Sam was not not look for Dean over and over and for Dean to never seem to realize that if he’d just been up front with Sam about purgatory in the first place then there would have been no need to chop off Benny’s head. Both boys have made mistakes in their year apart, but I only see Sam getting any grief over it.
So we have confirmation that Dean told Sam nothing about purgatory…how he got out via portal, how Benny helped him. Otherwise Sam would have known about the portal and Dean wouldn’t have needed to kill Benny to tell Sam what he should have known from the beginning.
Dean killed his own friend because he wasn’t honest with Sam.
[quote][quote]So, I am getting a little tired of hearing how awful Sam was not not look for Dean over and over and for Dean to never seem to realize that if he’d just been up front with Sam about purgatory in the first place then there would have been no need to chop off Benny’s head. Both boys have made mistakes in their year apart, but I only see Sam getting any grief over it.
[/quote]
Oh, this too, E. I completely agree with you here. It’s the one thing I’ve never liked about the way the whole Benny situation was handled.
Also, if Dean had just [i]told[/i] Sam why he trusted Benny in the first place, he wouldn’t have needed to get so much grief over not trusting Benny, and not apologizing for not trusting him now that Benny is apparently a good guy.[/quote]
So am I. I don’t understand why Sam gets grief for not telling Dean every little thing but Dean doesn’t.
I hope this is the last we see of Benny. Never bonded with him. Too bad he wasn’t a bad guy. That would have made him more interesting IMO.
Too bad Dean won’t learn from this. At least I don’t see that happening as he has a huge double standard going on with Sam.
[quote][quote][quote]So, I am getting a little tired of hearing how awful Sam was not not look for Dean over and over and for Dean to never seem to realize that if he’d just been up front with Sam about purgatory in the first place then there would have been no need to chop off Benny’s head. Both boys have made mistakes in their year apart, but I only see Sam getting any grief over it.
[/quote]
Oh, this too, E. I completely agree with you here. It’s the one thing I’ve never liked about the way the whole Benny situation was handled.
Also, if Dean had just [i]told[/i] Sam why he trusted Benny in the first place, he wouldn’t have needed to get so much grief over not trusting Benny, and not apologizing for not trusting him now that Benny is apparently a good guy.[/quote]
So am I. I don’t understand why Sam gets grief for not telling Dean every little thing but Dean doesn’t.
I hope this is the last we see of Benny. Never bonded with him. Too bad he wasn’t a bad guy. That would have made him more interesting IMO.
Too bad Dean won’t learn from this. At least I don’t see that happening as he has a huge double standard going on with Sam.[/quote]
But both boys thought Sam was going to hell, not Purgatory. Sam even asked where they were when they got there.
I agree that they didn’t anticipate that Sam would end up in Purgatory, so Dean probably wouldn’t have needed to tell Sam that. It’s just the whole trusting Benny thing that gets me a little upset. Dean could’ve told Sam why he thought Benny was trustworthy, and Sam wouldn’t be getting all kinds of grief for not apologising for believing Benny might just be a bad guy.
Yeah, that’s how I saw it Amy. Although Dean really didn’t kill Benny in the true sense (to be fair) he asked him for a very BIG favor… Benny could easily have stuck with the plan and been revived just like last time. It was Benny’s decision to stay in purgatory. But it doesn’t change the fact that the entire thing could have been avoided if Dean had just told Sam about purgatory, Benny, the portal etc… to begin with. I think Dean fears Sam’s disapproval almost as much as Sam fear’s Dean’s disappointment.
[quote]Yeah, that’s how I saw it Amy. Although Dean really didn’t kill Benny in the true sense (to be fair) he asked him for a very BIG favor… Benny could easily have stuck with the plan and been revived just like last time. It was Benny’s decision to stay in purgatory. But it doesn’t change the fact that the entire thing could have been avoided if Dean had just told Sam about purgatory, Benny, the portal etc… to begin with. I think Dean fears Sam’s disapproval almost as much as Sam fear’s Dean’s disappointment.[/quote][quote]Yeah, that’s how I saw it Amy. Although Dean really didn’t kill Benny in the true sense (to be fair) he asked him for a very BIG favor… Benny could easily have stuck with the plan and been revived just like last time. It was Benny’s decision to stay in purgatory. But it doesn’t change the fact that the entire thing could have been avoided if Dean had just told Sam about purgatory, Benny, the portal etc… to begin with. I think Dean fears Sam’s disapproval almost as much as Sam fear’s Dean’s disappointment.[/quote]
The thing that bugs the crap out of me is Dean told Benny ALL about Sam and yet after SOuthern Comfort and introducing Benny everyone parts ways. Dean couldn’t have simply arranged for the three of them to goo out for beers and talk> Answer some of Sams questions? Let Sam interact with benny and form his own opinion?
I just dont buy the whole Sam wouldn’t understand the whole purgatory thing. Sam and Dean have their own unique situation and Sam is empathetic enough that he could…well…empathise. ANd while he might not have understood he could have seen and talked to Benny and come to the conclusion that he was on the up and up.
Instead they manufactured the whole Trials thing for what appears to be the sole purpose of Sam learning Benny is actually an A O k guy and SAM was Wrong about Benny.
And just what did Dean tell Benny about Sam? JUdging from the way Benny probably fled it seems reasonable that Dean was going on about how Sam was some shoot first, shoot second and never ask questions judgemental arse who only saw monsters as evil. benny must have had some really poor thoughts about Sam to not consider offering to get a beer or coffee and answer some of Sams questions about him.
And I’m so utterly tired of everyone piling on Sam for not looking. Or thinking Dean was dead….depending on the wind the writers are blowiing that week. Why is Sam being punished for having a very human reaction to his beleoved brother dying for the 200th time? After Sam himself nearly died after being tortured by hallucinations AND witnessing loved one and friend dying? Usually multiple times.
Sam isn’t a robot, or a andriod or even a mandroid. Why does everyone not expect Sam to react or have feelings or simply react as a human would to loss and grief and failure? Fans keep bringing up the idea that Sam boke…that he was incapable of looking for Dean.
So why canb’t any of the charctors on the show who supposedly love him anxd purport to know him(Bobby, Dean) or are friends (Cas) even contemplate the idea that Sam broke? I mean Dean spent most of season 6 or was it 7? Worried that Sam would be broken beyonbd repair if the wall fell but he cdan’t even contemplate the idea that Sams very foundation…his stone #1 simply vanished and THAT would break Sam in all new ways?
I’m so very very tired of Sam being the mystery. Of everyone expecting life events to have no effect on Sam. Of everyone piling on Sam. And Sam having NO ONE to call friend that he can talk to.
And honestly I can see SAms fearing Deans disappointment but I cant se Dean even caring if Sam disappoves of anything. There is just no evidence of it. benny turned out to be Bennny special noble snowflake. Whta was there to disappove of?
I’m telling you, Amy these two need a session with Dr. Phil about there communication skills. 😀 It was really frustrating on both sides to me. Dean not telling Sam and then just expecting in to immediately trust Benny. And Sam stubborn refusal to give Benny a chance, when he has given other monsters one.
I just wanted to scream at them. Just have Dean ask Sam to give Benny a chance because he’d helped save Dean. Then. Go sit down. Have a beer. Get to know one another. Go on some hunts together. Whatever. MEN!
[quote]And just what did Dean tell Benny about Sam? JUdging from the way Benny probably fled it seems reasonable that Dean was going on about how Sam was some shoot first, shoot second and never ask questions judgemental arse who only saw monsters as evil. benny must have had some really poor thoughts about Sam to not consider offering to get a beer or coffee and answer some of Sams questions about him.[/quote]
From the moment Sam met Benny, he judged him to be a threat. I’m sure Benny could tell just by Sam’s initial reaction to him. And Benny isn’t stupid, Sam is a hunter after all.
After Dean met up with Benny to tell him about Sam and Martin being suspicious about the killings, Dean told Benny not to underestimate Sam. Because Sam told Dean that he thought Benny was guilty, I don’t think Dean was wrong to warn Benny that Sam was suspicious of him (because Sam was) and that he was a highly skilled hunter (because Sam is). Sam DID tell Dean that he might be the one to kill Benny after all.
IMO Sam didn’t seem at all interested in knowing anything more about Benny. I’m sure if Sam wanted to get to know him, Dean would have arranged for them to talk. But Sam never made that suggestion to Dean, and Dean knew enough not to push Sam since Sam had already made it clear how he felt.
So I disagree that it was somehow Dean’s fault that Benny and Sam didn’t have a chance to know each other better. Benny was trying to live his own life and Sam just didn’t want anything to do with Benny.
In fairness, I don’t think it’d be that easy. Dean would have needed to pinpoint in Purgatory where that portal was and be able to describe to Sam exactly where it was. That’s a pretty tall order, and very risky. Sam had Bobby with him, and it was a tad important to get him topside (so he could go highside) so I do think it was necessary to send Benny. Sorry…..
[quote]In fairness, I don’t think it’d be that easy. Dean would have needed to pinpoint in Purgatory where that portal was and be able to describe to Sam exactly where it was. That’s a pretty tall order, and very risky. Sam had Bobby with him, and it was a tad important to get him topside (so he could go highside) so I do think it was necessary to send Benny. Sorry…..[/quote]
Definitely not something that Dean could have shown Sam on Google Maps 🙂
But at the very least Sam would have known that there was a way out for him.. instead he felt that he was just stuck with no way out. If he had at least known about the portal it would have given him hope and a direction to move in.. otherwise, he’s just sitting on his hands with no way to help himself.
[quote]And while plot wise I liked the idea that Dean had to go to Benny to ask him with help with getting Sam out of purgatory, but it does occur to me that Dean wouldn’t have had to if he had just told Sam about what was going on down there to begin with. I think it’s now pretty clear that Dean never told Sam anything, about Benny, about purgatory or about how he got out of purgatory, because Sam was clueless about the human portal and needed Benny to go back to Purgatory and tell him about it. If Dean had told him anything at all, Sam could have been on the lookout for the portal from the moment he arrived and then waltzed back out on his own without Benny’s help. So, I am getting a little tired of hearing how awful Sam was not not look for Dean over and over and for Dean to never seem to realize that if he’d just been up front with Sam about purgatory in the first place then there would have been no need to chop off Benny’s head. Both boys have made mistakes in their year apart, but I only see Sam getting any grief over it.
So we have confirmation that Dean told Sam nothing about purgatory…how he got out via portal, how Benny helped him. Otherwise Sam would have known about the portal and Dean wouldn’t have needed to kill Benny to tell Sam what he should have known from the beginning.
Dean killed his own friend because he wasn’t honest with Sam.[/quote]
I never really got the idea that Sam wanted to hear to much about Purgator. I mean we had times where Dean felt guilty with what happend to Cass being left behind or dead. Southern Comfort they really didn’t talk about Purgatory and about Benny much. Other then Dean trying to find out why Sam never looked for him and never seem intrested in hearing how Dean survived I think all SAm seem to notice that Dean was alive. And when Cass came back any discussion on purgatory happend between CAss and Dean never Sam being involved. I think it would have been intresting if they would have had Sam ask Dean more about it first eps he seem to touch on it a bit but that was just how it was not sure he mentioned Benn. So kinda hard to talk about human portal if the subject is ever talked about.
[quote]So, I am getting a little tired of hearing how awful Sam was not not look for Dean over and over and for Dean to never seem to realize that if he’d just been up front with Sam about purgatory in the first place then there would have been no need to chop off Benny’s head. Both boys have made mistakes in their year apart, but I only see Sam getting any grief over it.
[/quote]
Oh, this too, E. I completely agree with you here. It’s the one thing I’ve never liked about the way the whole Benny situation was handled.
Also, if Dean had just [i]told[/i] Sam why he trusted Benny in the first place, he wouldn’t have needed to get so much grief over not trusting Benny, and not apologizing for not trusting him now that Benny is apparently a good guy.
Benny the good, vegan vampire….. how incredibly undramatic and B….O….R….I….N….G !
Oh, so much agreed.
I hope that he was mindfu’d by Naomi to go to Purgatory to save Dean and then to obey his every need topside.
I like the idea that Benny really is this bloodthirsty beast that was manipulated to a docile vegan vamp. And he decided to stay in Purgatory because the programming was messing with his bloodlust, the prime directive.
Not this “The love of a good woman/Dean saved me.” boring crock.
Oh, so much agreed.
I hope that he was mindfu’d by Naomi to go to Purgatory to save Dean and then to obey his every need topside.
I like the idea that Benny really is this bloodthirsty beast that was manipulated to a docile vegan vamp. And he decided to stay in Purgatory because the programming was messing with his bloodlust, the prime directive.
Not this “The love of a good woman/Dean saved me.” boring crock.
[quote]Benny the good, vegan vampire….. how incredibly undramatic and B….O….R….I….N….G ![/quote]
Yeah, [b]E[/b], I know what you mean. I had been intrigued with Benny’s character when he first showed up and then I’d hoped for some drama or ambiguity as to his motivation, y’know…some tension or something. But to have him just be a good Vamp, who was depressed about getting out of Purgatory, was a little boring and not quite what I’d hoped for.
Maybe Sam knew about the portal, but he couldn’t have known where it was. Dean were told about the portal from Benny but he still needed Benny to lead the way.
Sorry Ale but Sam in no way indicated that he knew anything about the portal which, had he known he surly would have made this obvious to the audience. At the very least, when Sam found out he was stuck in purgatory with Bobby’s soul, he could have said, “Hey, Bobby, we’re gonna be OK, Dean told me about a human only portal that’s for when human souls end up stuck in purgatory by mistake, we just have to find it.” This would have at least told us that he and Dean had had a discussion about purgatory at some point, but there was no indication that Sam knew anything about it at all. And I am not saying Dean should have told Sam about the purgatory portal to prepare Sam for this trial specifically, he was supposed to go to hell after all, but he should have just told Sam, period, as in it’s information Sam had a right to know as Dean’s brother and hunting partner, because as it turns out, the information was important to Sam in the long run. Dean didn’t NEED to know that Sam was drinking demon blood, he didn’t gain anything from the knowledge, but he was pissed when he found out Sam was hiding that information from him. As Sam’s brother, Dean felt he had a right to know what was going on with him. Sam deserves the same consideration IMO.
I actually have no problem at all with Dean sending Benny in to help Sam, it was very dramatic and a nice send off (possibly) for that character; what I have a problem with is Dean withholding such important information from Sam all season long and not seeing this as lying by omission, which is just as bad as what both Cas and Sam had been doing earlier in the season. It bothers me even more that the writers don’t seem to see this double standard AT ALL, giving Dean dialog about how he can’t take any more lies from anyone, when he himself has been essentially lying since episode 1. It just makes him look like such a hypocrite and further makes me think that the writers aren’t paying very good attention to their own story details.
E, I’ve just checked, lizaroXXX is right (the next post): Dean mentioned the portal in front of Sam in A Little Slice of Kevin. Sam knew about it.
Yes. Sam knew about the portal, but finding it in the midst of all while protecting Bobby’s soul would slow the episode. He must have known something about it, because he knows how to slice his arm and get the soul to hitch a ride. He also offers a soul train to Benny and he had the incantation readily available. So when the taxi driver doesn’t show, it would appear that Sam already knew the incantation and the alternative way outl but Dean needed to send Benny to help, so is Benny key to opening the portal or just bait so Sam can escape? Or just a way to resolve a character that had a dead end(no pun intended) and a way for Sam to understand Dean’s bond with Benny. Ty Olsen was enjoyable as Benny the vegan vamp who just doesn’t fit topside. Respectfully.
Dean DID tell Sam why he trusted Benny. Dean told Sam that Benny was the reason he escaped Purgatory. And Sam’s response was “But you’re out now, and Benny’s still breathing. Why?” Sam didn’t seem to care that Benny saved Dean from Purgatory, he only seemed to care that Dean didn’t kill him once they got back to Earth.
It wasn’t about why Dean trusted Benny for Sam, it was about the fact that Dean befriended a vampire.
[quote]
And while plot wise I liked the idea that Dean had to go to Benny to ask him with help with getting Sam out of purgatory, but it does occur to me that Dean wouldn’t have had to if he had just told Sam about what was going on down there to begin with. I think it’s now pretty clear that Dean never told Sam anything, about Benny, about purgatory or about how he got out of purgatory, because Sam was clueless about the human portal and needed Benny to go back to Purgatory and tell him about it. If Dean had told him anything at all, Sam could have been on the lookout for the portal from the moment he arrived and then waltzed back out on his own without Benny’s help. So, I am getting a little tired of hearing how awful Sam was not not look for Dean over and over and for Dean to never seem to realize that if he’d just been up front with Sam about purgatory in the first place then there would have been no need to chop off Benny’s head. Both boys have made mistakes in their year apart, but I only see Sam getting any grief over it.
[/quote]
Sam knew about the Portal.
Episode 8×07, Dean speaks to Castiel, Sam is in the same room: “I was there, I know that place… I know how we had to scratch and claw and kill and bleed to find that PORTAL and make it through it “.
How could he explain to his brother where the portal was exactly? Would have to draw a map? Benny would still be necessary.
lizaroXXX, you know, it’s true that Dean said that, but if I am supposed to somehow infer from that one short, off-hand comment of Dean’s while Sam sat nearby, maybe overhearing and understanding, and maybe not that at some point the brother’s had this deep, meaningful conversation about Purgatory in which Dean explained everything about the place, then that is a colossal writer’s FAIL. First of all, that is a pretty far stretch (at least for me) to assume that Sam knows the whole back story of purgatory from that one offhand comment of Dean’s. What Sam does and doesn’t know is not indicated at all in that scene and there is no way to verify it through what we saw onscreen. Secondly, why on earth would the PTB leave such a crucial conversation between the brothers where they discuss something as crucial and relevant to the main story arc as purgatory OFF SCEEN and then not even indicate in any real way that they had even had that conversation? I can’t buy that, it’s just too far of a stretch for me. Then later in that same episode Dean felt compelled to hide his purgatory conversation with Cas from Sam specifically by getting out of the car so that he wouldn’t overhear. How does that fit into the idea that there has been full disclosure between the brothers? Why hide from Sam at that point information that presumably he already knows? And in the next episode when Dean says “Does that sound like the Benny we know?” to which Sam replies “I don’t know Benny” further indicates (to me anyway) that Sam still doesn’t know much about Benny, about purgatory or about anything. The comment made by Dean is contradictory at best, but it certainly isn’t confirmation that Sam and Dean have had an incredibly important conversation about vital, canon related events offscreen and are only hinting at it’s details in such a cryptic fashion onscreen. It’s just not enough for me. But mileage varies…..
To be fair, Dean is A Little Slice of Kevin told Sam that he did everything to get Cas out. He was talking about his feelings about that. And then told Sam exactly how he felt when he was about to reach the portal (the fear, the smell – or something like that). That conversation felt to me deeper than just informing Sam there was a portal out – which I assumed Sam already knew because it was mentioned praticaly in the same conversation. But I was more interested about what Dean was telling about himself.
[quote]And in the next episode when Dean says “Does that sound like the Benny we know?” to which Sam replies “I don’t know Benny” further indicates (to me anyway) that Sam still doesn’t know much about Benny, about purgatory or about anything.[/quote]
This exchange can be interpreted differently. “Does that sound like the Benny we know?” may indicate that Dean told Sam about Benny and why he trusted him in more details (doesn’t make sense otherwise), and the “I don’t know Benny” may just indicate that Sam was pointing to Dean that he didn’t know Benny personally – just what Dean told him.
Same thing with Amy: Sam told Dean everything about her and the reasons why he trusted her, but Dean didn’t know her personaly. And because of all the circunstances they were going through – Cas betrayal and thus Dean unwillingness to trust another not-human being, his depression and Sam’s unstable state that prevented Dean from trusting Sam’s judgment, he decided that Amy was a monster and because of that would kill again, there was no hope, so she deserved to die.
With Benny, Sam also wasn’t willing to trust Dean’s jugdment blindly because he couldn’t understand Purgatory and what being there influenced Dean. It could have done him bad (Sam was not privy to our experience as viewers). Now, Sam tasted it and understood it, plus saw what Benny did.
It was, IMO, character groth for both. I believe they finally reached a common ground/understanding that not all monsters are bad and deserve to be killed. Something they somewhat knew before, but circunstances of life (Cas, mostly) bite them in the ass and put them back in that unhealthy, black and white state – all the depression, hopelessness, loss and darkness of season 07.
Much better now, IMO.
I guess I just find it so incredibly frustrating at how inconsistently this whole topic has been dealt with by the writers. Dean mentions the portal in a conversation with Sam (who doesn’t respond in any way that lets us know what he knows) then Dean hides his next conversation, the one with Cas, from Sam later in that same episode…. Why? What was the point of doing that if he had really told Sam everything there was to know? Then, when Sam is trapped in purgatory, if he really knew about the portal, then why did he say to Bobby when their taxi driver didn’t show “we have no way out?” Why didn’t he say instead, “there’s a portal, we just have to find it?” or “There’s a portal, but I don’t know where it is?” why “we have no way out?” as though he is in fact clueless about the portals existence? Then when Benny shows up Sam says “what are you doing here?” Why doesn’t Sam know what Benny is doing there? Urg, it’s just so incredibly irritating and needlessly confusing. We are getting a ton of mixed signals here, and it sounds less like enigmatically careful plotting and more like sloppiness.
[quote]I guess I just find it so incredibly frustrating at how inconsistently this whole topic has been dealt with by the writers. Dean mentions the portal in a conversation with Sam (who doesn’t respond in any way that lets us know what he knows) then Dean hides his next conversation, the one with Cas, from Sam later in that same episode…. Why? What was the point of doing that if he had really told Sam everything there was to know? Then, when Sam is trapped in purgatory, if he really knew about the portal, then why did he say to Bobby when their taxi driver didn’t show “we have no way out?” Why didn’t he say instead, “there’s a portal, we just have to find it?” or “There’s a portal, but I don’t know where it is?” why “we have no way out?” as though he is in fact clueless about the portals existence? Then when Benny shows up Sam says “what are you doing here?” Why doesn’t Sam know what Benny is doing there? Urg, it’s just so incredibly irritating and needlessly confusing. We are getting a ton of mixed signals here, and it sounds less like enigmatically careful plotting and more like sloppiness.[/quote]
I share your frustrations with the writing team’s efforts this season 😥
[quote]I guess I just find it so incredibly frustrating at how inconsistently this whole topic has been dealt with by the writers. Dean mentions the portal in a conversation with Sam (who doesn’t respond in any way that lets us know what he knows) then Dean hides his next conversation, the one with Cas, from Sam later in that same episode…. Why? What was the point of doing that if he had really told Sam everything there was to know? Then, when Sam is trapped in purgatory, if he really knew about the portal, then why did he say to Bobby when their taxi driver didn’t show “we have no way out?” Why didn’t he say instead, “there’s a portal, we just have to find it?” or “There’s a portal, but I don’t know where it is?” why “we have no way out?” as though he is in fact clueless about the portals existence? Then when Benny shows up Sam says “what are you doing here?” Why doesn’t Sam know what Benny is doing there? Urg, it’s just so incredibly irritating and needlessly confusing. We are getting a ton of mixed signals here, and it sounds less like enigmatically careful plotting and more like sloppiness.[/quote]
First off, sorry for my English, it’s not my language, I hope to be clear enough. To me it’s obvious that Sam knew about the portal, because Dean talked to him openly about “the heat, the stink, the pain, the fear” that he felt when he went through. If Sam had not heard of the portal before, he would have at least asked for an explanation at that time instead to shut up and listen.
Dean doesn’t come out of the car to talk to Castiel to hide from Sam. Dean had already told Sam (in the same episode) about his guilt for having left behind Cas. I think in that moment Dean was only frustrated by the situation and by the guilt he felt and wanted to clarify with the angel. The reason why he suddenly out of the car is not to hide the conversation to Sam but just to clarify with his friend. That was a matter between Dean and Cas only.
Sam told Bobby “we have no way out” because he had no idea where the portal was and how to find it.
Considering the low opinion that Sam had about Benny how he could guess that the vampire was there to save them, I think it is normal he asked him “what are you doing here?”.
This is how I interpreted the topic, sorry again for my English 🙂
Hey lizaroxxx, sorry for the late reply. And your English is just fine by the way…really good in fact! Ok, I am willing to concede that maybe Sam knew about the portal, but he didn’t know anything about the spell and how to carry a soul out in his arm. He actually needed Benny to come and tell him that.
racestaffer made this comment, raising some really good points about what Sam might and might not have known. It’s pretty clear, that Dean was keeping quite a bit of info to himself:
[quote]Sam may have known about the portal but I doubt Dean shared the specifics of the spell for carrying a non-human out. Neither of the guys knew Sam would pass through Purgatory until Naomi revealed that. The fellas had no reason to think carrying a soul out of Purgatory would be a spell Sam would need to learn and carry around in his pocket or commit to memory. Exorcisms, yes. Purgatory transport, no. It’s not something a hunter really needs to have in his toolbox for everyday use. And before the spell, Benny and Sam have the following exchange:
Benny: You boys remember what I told ya?
Sam: Yeah… Bobby… Here goes.
Sam tucks the monster weapon under his arm – Goodbyes… Cut-Cut… Incantation
It’s possible that “What I told ya” refered to Benny providing specifics on the spell by which a human can carry something else out of Purgatory. Thus Dean had to send Benny. Sam knew there was a way out for him, if he could find it, but there was also the trial to consider. It wasn’t that Sam couldn’t escape… it was that Sam couldn’t escape with Bobby. And Sam might die trying rather than leave Bobby behind and save his own hide at the last second.[/quote]
This brings up another problem though. Sam had to have Benny tell him the spell to get Bobby out of purgatory… but what makes anyone think that getting a soul out of hell would have been any easier? That question wasn’t even addressed in the episode. It makes it look like Sam and Dean didn’t even bother to prepare. I find the inconsistencies and holes in logic hard to deal with.
Your English is just fine! I agree with you also, the conversation with Dean and Cas outside the Impala was just for them. They spent the year in Purgatory (mostly) together and it was Cas that Dean felt he’d wronged (even though he didn’t) so Sam didn’t need to be a part of it. Granted, Dean had been a bit sketchy as to how they got out but that conversation was something between Dean and Cas, just as Cas doesn’t need to be involved in Dean/Sam issues that don’t involve him … unless he’s getting them to work together again like in Torn and Frayed.
Thank you E and dashnjo 🙂 , I always read you but I never write because it’s very hard for me to express myself correctly in English.
I agree with racestaffer’s comment, it may be that Sam knew about the portal but not about the spell to carry Bobby’s soul out in his arm and Benny told him.
I also think that Dean didn’t want to hide this information to Sam for any particular reason, just he didn’t think it was important or it would ever need to Sam. Clearly he was wrong, but I don’t blame him for that.
The only thing I blame Dean was hiding to Sam Benny’story at first, but I think he did just because he was angry with Sam because his admission that he had not looked for him.
What was important to me was know that Dean had spoken to Sam about what he had passed in Purgatory and, apparently, he did.
However E, I somewhat understand your frustration because it’s true that there are holes in this episode, inconsistencies and things that could have been explained better.
i’m with you e…
but the way i took it is really quite simple. first off sam’s mistrust of benny most likely, imo, stems from the fact that dean kept him a secret for 5 eps which is how much actual sam and dean time? weeks, months? i also believe that since the only reason sam even knows benny exists is because dean needed sam’s help…dean had no choice…sam also knows this…that dean would’ve kept benny a secret for God knows how much longer, if dean didn’t feel desperate enough to call sam in the first place…
so i’m sure sam isnt’ feeling too happy about that….yet another reason to distrust a vampire….in addition to every other logical reason that comes from not trusting a monster….particularly since sam can speak from experience…
but besides from all that …..dean may have spoken about a portal, but it wasn’t to sam was it….sam was in the room, but when dean came clean about it, he was talking to cas…not sam. how does that make sam feel? finding out info just because he happened to be in the same room and not because dean had a face to face honest convo about what went down in purgatory …..
everything sam found out about purgatory, he basically learned because dean was telling someone else…..
sam totally didn’t know about how dean got benny out….hell, how benny got out is, imo, the very reason dean didn’t discuss benny with sam…..sam had no idea that dean let benny inside him…sam just learned that himself when benny showed up and explained it all to him…
benny knew about the portal and flat out told dean he needed him to piggyback him out….dean knew from the getgo benny was using him….
now if sam knew any of this prior to taxi driver….sam would’ve called dean out on it. sam’s distrust of benny would’ve been justified….and like dean was concerning ruby, sam may have been greatful for benny for saving dean, but he never would’ve trusted him….not ever. just like dean never trusted ruby. sam would see that benny/ruby had a lot in common.
as show would have it, with everything that was going on, there really was no time for sam to get into with dean how he actually got benny out in the first place….knowing show, because it is dean….they’ll probably never revisit the subject…which is too bad really….
but if show ever had the class to revisit the subject, perhaps during a sam/dean argument trust, then i would hope that sam would bring up the fact that dean lied to him about how he truly got benny out…that dean had kept secrets from him…..because i feel that’s an issue that really should be resolved…
but alas …that’s just wishful thinking …..
[quote]i’m with you e…
but the way i took it is really quite simple. first off sam’s mistrust of benny most likely, imo, stems from the fact that dean kept him a secret for 5 eps which is how much actual sam and dean time? weeks, months? i also believe that since the only reason sam even knows benny exists is because dean needed sam’s help…dean had no choice…sam also knows this…that dean would’ve kept benny a secret for God knows how much longer, if dean didn’t feel desperate enough to call sam in the first place…
so i’m sure sam isnt’ feeling too happy about that….yet another reason to distrust a vampire….in addition to every other logical reason that comes from not trusting a monster….particularly since sam can speak from experience…
but besides from all that …..dean may have spoken about a portal, but it wasn’t to sam was it….sam was in the room, but when dean came clean about it, he was talking to cas…not sam. how does that make sam feel? finding out info just because he happened to be in the same room and not because dean had a face to face honest convo about what went down in purgatory …..
everything sam found out about purgatory, he basically learned because dean was telling someone else…..
sam totally didn’t know about how dean got benny out….hell, how benny got out is, imo, the very reason dean didn’t discuss benny with sam…..sam had no idea that dean let benny inside him…sam just learned that himself when benny showed up and explained it all to him…
benny knew about the portal and flat out told dean he needed him to piggyback him out….dean knew from the getgo benny was using him….
now if sam knew any of this prior to taxi driver….sam would’ve called dean out on it. sam’s distrust of benny would’ve been justified….and like dean was concerning ruby, sam may have been greatful for benny for saving dean, but he never would’ve trusted him….not ever. just like dean never trusted ruby. sam would see that benny/ruby had a lot in common.
as show would have it, with everything that was going on, there really was no time for sam to get into with dean how he actually got benny out in the first place….knowing show, because it is dean….they’ll probably never revisit the subject…which is too bad really….
but if show ever had the class to revisit the subject, perhaps during a sam/dean argument trust, then i would hope that sam would bring up the fact that dean lied to him about how he truly got benny out…that dean had kept secrets from him…..because i feel that’s an issue that really should be resolved…
but alas …that’s just wishful thinking …..[/quote]
Sam only heard bits and pieces of Deans stay in Purgatory. Lets start with the first eps they talked in the hotel room about Purgatory same was curious and Dean told him about surviving there and how pure it was. And also cabin when he said Cass didn’t make it out. And Dean was broken up about that and hurt that Sam didn’t look for him. So next flashbacks Sam doesn’t know about but its after talking to Alfie the weiner angel. To me Sam and Dean really didn’t talk purgatory until Dean is confronted with how Benny is alive and Sam doesn’t get that Benny helped Dean in purgatory and kept him alive so Benny deserved to live. And how people change. So the flashbacks were both on Sam and Dean blame both for not coming forward. Sam didn’t really talk to Dean why he didn’t look for him only we had this agreement. I am guessing both would have been more open about the flashbacks or what happend then Sam could have learned why Dean trusted Benny and about the portal and what happend to Cass. But since Sam didn’t really ask about Purgatory he got second hand information. Like when Dean started seeing Cass. And then to hear what the place was like again and how Dean felt like he failed Cass by not saving him. So we can go on and on about how Dean never told Sam about the portal and how it was convo between Cass but Sam could have asked Dean more about Purgatory also. But to me both the boys were guarded about their time. Other then Sam coming forward when Dean was possessed by coin and told Dean about Amelia. And to me all the times that Sam was possessed he could have given Dean a free pass on what he said instead he didn’t instead he told him he would be the hunter to take Benny out. I never saw Benny as Dean’s Ruby. I mean trust me Benny put up with alot just to get out of purgatory. Had to search out an Angel he was not counting on and fact that Dean called him undead bloodjunkie and stuff. Dean didn’t really trust Benny until he saved Cass life. I am sure at the time had the writers thought hey Sam should know how dean got Benny out they would have had Sam ask Dean about it and about Purgatory. But to me Sam never seemed intrested in Purgatory all he knew his brother survived it and that was enough info he needed to know. But that is JMO on subject.
i[quote][quote]i’m with you e…
but the way i took it is really quite simple. first off sam’s mistrust of benny most likely, imo, stems from the fact that dean kept him a secret for 5 eps which is how much actual sam and dean time? weeks, months? i also believe that since the only reason sam even knows benny exists is because dean needed sam’s help…dean had no choice…sam also knows this…that dean would’ve kept benny a secret for God knows how much longer, if dean didn’t feel desperate enough to call sam in the first place…
so i’m sure sam isnt’ feeling too happy about that….yet another reason to distrust a vampire….in addition to every other logical reason that comes from not trusting a monster….particularly since sam can speak from experience…
but besides from all that …..dean may have spoken about a portal, but it wasn’t to sam was it….sam was in the room, but when dean came clean about it, he was talking to cas…not sam. how does that make sam feel? finding out info just because he happened to be in the same room and not because dean had a face to face honest convo about what went down in purgatory …..
everything sam found out about purgatory, he basically learned because dean was telling someone else…..
sam totally didn’t know about how dean got benny out….hell, how benny got out is, imo, the very reason dean didn’t discuss benny with sam…..sam had no idea that dean let benny inside him…sam just learned that himself when benny showed up and explained it all to him…
benny knew about the portal and flat out told dean he needed him to piggyback him out….dean knew from the getgo benny was using him….
now if sam knew any of this prior to taxi driver….sam would’ve called dean out on it. sam’s distrust of benny would’ve been justified….and like dean was concerning ruby, sam may have been greatful for benny for saving dean, but he never would’ve trusted him….not ever. just like dean never trusted ruby. sam would see that benny/ruby had a lot in common.
as show would have it, with everything that was going on, there really was no time for sam to get into with dean how he actually got benny out in the first place….knowing show, because it is dean….they’ll probably never revisit the subject…which is too bad really….
but if show ever had the class to revisit the subject, perhaps during a sam/dean argument trust, then i would hope that sam would bring up the fact that dean lied to him about how he truly got benny out…that dean had kept secrets from him…..because i feel that’s an issue that really should be resolved…
but alas …that’s just wishful thinking …..[/quote]
Sam only heard bits and pieces of Deans stay in Purgatory. Lets start with the first eps they talked in the hotel room about Purgatory same was curious and Dean told him about surviving there and how pure it was. And also cabin when he said Cass didn’t make it out. And Dean was broken up about that and hurt that Sam didn’t look for him. So next flashbacks Sam doesn’t know about but its after talking to Alfie the weiner angel. To me Sam and Dean really didn’t talk purgatory until Dean is confronted with how Benny is alive and Sam doesn’t get that Benny helped Dean in purgatory and kept him alive so Benny deserved to live. And how people change. So the flashbacks were both on Sam and Dean blame both for not coming forward. Sam didn’t really talk to Dean why he didn’t look for him only we had this agreement. I am guessing both would have been more open about the flashbacks or what happend then Sam could have learned why Dean trusted Benny and about the portal and what happend to Cass. But since Sam didn’t really ask about Purgatory he got second hand information. Like when Dean started seeing Cass. And then to hear what the place was like again and how Dean felt like he failed Cass by not saving him. So we can go on and on about how Dean never told Sam about the portal and how it was convo between Cass but Sam could have asked Dean more about Purgatory also. But to me both the boys were guarded about their time. Other then Sam coming forward when Dean was possessed by coin and told Dean about Amelia. And to me all the times that Sam was possessed he could have given Dean a free pass on what he said instead he didn’t instead he told him he would be the hunter to take Benny out. I never saw Benny as Dean’s Ruby. I mean trust me Benny put up with alot just to get out of purgatory. Had to search out an Angel he was not counting on and fact that Dean called him undead bloodjunkie and stuff. Dean didn’t really trust Benny until he saved Cass life. I am sure at the time had the writers thought hey Sam should know how dean got Benny out they would have had Sam ask Dean about it and about Purgatory. But to me Sam never seemed intrested in Purgatory all he knew his brother survived it and that was enough info he needed to know. But that is JMO on subject.[/quote]
i’m not going to go too much into this because it is a bone of contention with alot of people, including myself apparently…but i will say this…and you made the point for me in your post…
sam did only learn about purgatory in bits and pieces. as a matter of fact, as i recall, sam’s first question to dean was “what was it like?” and dean told sam that he wouldn’t understand it because he wasn’t there. that imo was a load of crap, because if anyone would understand purgatory , it would be sam.
dean spoke of purgatory being pure, but at the time of this conversation with sam, he was acting a bit insane….he was willing to kill kevin’s mother at the time…so in a way, dean was pretty much justifying his eager to kill behavior….dean didn’t go into any specifics with sam at all.
dean wasn’t talking, sam wasn’t pressing.
sam finds out about benny in ep 5, which means dean has been hiding him for months. why? if dean believed benny to be so awesome then why hide him?
still, dean never admitted anything specific to sam except that benny kept dean alive….when dean asked sam why he trusted ruby so much, dean told sam he needed to know and understand….and sam came clean….exceptionally clean…..dean still never trusted ruby, but he understood….
sam got generalizations and on that he was expected to trust benny….where dean got specifics and still didn’t trust ruby…again…double standard writing when it comes to sam and dean…
sam’s knowledge of purgatory only came because dean was opening up to someone else about purgatory…dean never talked to sam about it because dean didn’t want to talk about purgatory….he certainly wasn’t talking about benny…
you say sam showed no interest? i did see interest in sam…but as usual dean wasn’t talking, so sam didn’t press on the matter.
i didn’t see any point in any episode where dean showed an interest in sam’s year or in amelia. as far as dean was concerned, sam’s time didn’t even exist…it was totally irrelevant. sam hit a dog and met a girl…that was dean’s interest in sam….
we are up to eppy 20 now, and dean still knows nothing or hasn’t asked sam about his time…
the only reason dean knows amelia’s name is because sam was so upset with dean at one point that he gave dean her name, rank and serial no. which by the way, dean used against sam in the very next eppy…by sending that vile text to emotionally blackmail sam.
so if anyone hasn’t shown interest in the other, imo dean hasn’t shown interest in sam…otherwise the whole entire crappy melodrama bs we had to go thru for ten eps wouldn’t have happened…
all dean had to do was ask sam why he didn’t look..what happened? that’s the one question dean did not ask….
anyway, all this crap just makes my blood boil so i’m going to bow out of this conversation entirely….it’s water under the bridge that none of us have any control over…..i just hope all of it will be explained in some degree in the coming eps…i still hold onto the fact that there’s more to sam’s story and we’re on the verge of learning the truth…then maybe the first half of the season will be less of a nightmare…at least for me.
i respect your opinion, but i just don’t agree….but hey, that’s what makes the world go round, right?
so over and out on this matter….hope to discuss something way more positive soon.
nappi815 you are my hero. This is EXACTLY how I feel too. I have major problems with how this entire story arc has played out in such a confusing and cryptic fashion. I really think that some people are confusing comments with conversation when it comes to purgatory and what Dean has divulged and what Sam knows. Dean has made several comments about purgatory such as:
“I’m here, okay?” (Ep. 1)
“I saw enough” (Ep. 1)
“I highly doubt you get anything about purgatory” (Ep. 6)
“I know how we had to scratch and claw and kill and bleed to find that portal and make it through it, and it almost finished me. So, uh… so how exactly are you sitting here with us right now?” (Ep. 7, spoken to Castiel, and overheard by Sam)
“You do see something…..severely wrong here, right? Sammy, I remember every second of leaving that place. I mean, I remember the – the heat, the stink, the pain, the fear. I have that whole ugly mess… [he taps his head] …right here, and he says he has no idea how he got out? I – I’m just not buying it.” (Ep. 7)
But these are only statements made by Dean and do not constitute a conversation about Purgatory as they don’t require Sam’s participation and we got no insight into what Sam knows or understands. If a conversation about intimate details of Dean’s purgatory time actually took place it all happened offscreen (which is a huge problem in itself). So, to me it is only fair to assume then that if Dean did discuss it in greater detail at some point, then it is because Sam must have asked and shown interest in knowing. Dean is hardly one to volunteer information, so if Sam knows about purgatory its because he asked about it again, at some point, in addition to the times that we actually saw onscreen. It is unfair and biased IMHO to allow one character the benefit of offscreen candor while not granting that same benefit to the other character. We don’t KNOW that Dean told Sam anything, we can only infer that he has given the comments he has made onscreen, so therefore it is only right and fair to also infer that Sam continued to ask for more information and at some point got that information.
I’ll add one more quote
[quote]DEAN
[to SAM] This sound like the Benny you know?
SAM
I don’t know Benny. [/quote]
This sounds to me like Dean thinks Sam knows more than Sam actually does know. Dean knows Sam only met Benny briefly but assumes Sam knows all the ins and outs of Benny. So Dean may BELIEVE that Sam should trust Benny because since Dean knows Benny, Sam should to. I’ve done this myself, I know something that seems basic to me and I forget that other people may not .
That’s a good one Percy, I should have added that one as well. My comment was actually generated by this comment:
[quote]But to me Sam never seemed intrested in Purgatory all he knew his brother survived it and that was enough info he needed to know[/quote]
This is not the only place that I have seen this idea mentioned. It seems kind of unfair to me to assume that Dean has been disclosing info off screen, but Sam hasn’t been doing the same or shown any interest in doing so. At some point Dean MUST have divulged something about purgatory… so it must follow that Sam has asked. If you are going to buy into all of Dean’s cryptic and non-specific comments about purgatory as meaning something more…. then you must also accept that Sam has been asking in addition to the cryptic suggestions that he wants to know more that have been shown on screen. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander and all that.
nappi, E, percysowner, great posts! At the beginning of the year I was sure all this cryptic language and non-discussions was part of the story. Then mid season started to lose hope, now I’m back on board that there is a reason.
Dean talked with Sam about how horrible Purgatory was. That it was a constant battle, fighting off monsters, just trying to survive.
Dean also talked [i]specifically[/i] about the importance of finding the portal in order to get out of Purgatory:
DEAN: “I mean, I – I was there. I-I-I know that place. I know how we had to scratch and claw and kill and bleed [i][b]to find that portal[/b][/i] and make it through it, and it almost finished me.”
This was an important and relevant conversation about the specific details of Purgatory and it happened ONSCREEN. Sam knew all about the portal.
And Sam didn’t seem to want to know much about Benny. He made it clear to Dean how he felt about him. And if Sam wanted to know more about Benny, then all he had to do was to ask Dean about him, or ask Dean to arrange a meeting between the two of them.
But instead, Sam made it clear to Dean that he didn’t want Dean to have anything more to do with Benny.
Wow, I so agree with you, E. The good outweighed the bad. I liked all “Tim the Enchanter’s” points, but I’m not getting into all that fray. Loved so much about it. Yes, it could have been a 2-parter. Could have showed how Dean and Sam found a rogue reaper to get them to Hell and why Sam couldn’t find one when Dean was there.
Plus, we could have eliminated a filler ep that way, like the stupid witch one. It was a little easy to go between the realms, but we don’t know those portals always existed or who knew about them and how. I think we may find that out.
Bobby was a happy soul for having been jailed in hell, but I suspect he was glad to get out and to see Sam. Nothing wrong with that, but I guess a little trauma could have been shown if we had a 2-parter.
I think it’s not re-con or even against cannon to show that parts of hell are different, like everyone having their own heaven. Dean’s part of hell was particularly gruesome and Sam and Adam were in the ‘cage’, and Crowley showed us his eternal ‘line’. This part was more your standard fire and brimstone version. I don’t have a problem with it being portrayed in different ways.
My biggest problem with consistency remains the reaper being corporeal and killed like an angel, although we’ve never seen one killed, have we? I didn’t think they were corporeal, though. That seems contradictory and in your face. Also, Sam leaving his watch, while I suspect it has something to do with the difference between hell-time and earth-time, but they never explained it.
I’m good with Bobby going to heaven. Maybe Crowley has some power over certain souls since God is “AWOL”? I have no take on who, if anyone, has Kevin. Doesn’t matter. They have to find him/or the tablet to get the 3rd trial done, so we’ll find out then.
Yes, Dean is a bit tough on Kevin. I don’t quite get it, either, but he’s trying to be supportive in a tough-love sort of way. They needed him to disappear, I guess, hence Sam and Dean acting clueless about his hallucinations/Crowley’s voice/Naomi immitating Crowley’s voice or whatever anyone’s take is on that.
I did chuckle that Dean made such good time to Maine, but it didn’t bother me too much…Hollywood, TV, you know, they take liberties. It would have been fun to hear a joke about it.
I loved the episode, plot holes and all. Just loved it. Would have made more sense and had time to explain more if it were 2 parts, tho.
[quote]My biggest problem with consistency remains the reaper being corporeal and killed like an angel, although we’ve never seen one killed, have we?[/quote]
We have seen one killed. In Death Takes A Holiday, Alistair killed. I’m pretty sure he needed Death’s sickle or at least a Reaper’s sickle to kill the Reaper. Maybe an angel sword would have done it, or maybe Sam and Dean dying and coming back has so destroyed the natural order that now Reapers are easy to kill. But this episode pretty well controverts all the Reaper lore we have had.
[quote]What is with Ajay?[/quote]
That is what I was wondering. Why is he a ‘coyote’? Why would he do that? For pizza? Maybe he’s got the same fixation for junk food as Death.
The only thing that makes sense to me is that Crowley threatened him to smuggle souls he choosed into Hell – souls that wasn’t supposed to be there naturally, like Bobby. That would explain why Bobby ended up in Hell and why there was a demon watching the reaper. But I didn’t remember this explanation in the episode. Did I miss something?
I liked the episode, but I’m having a hard time trying to explain to myself this easiness in strolling through realms.
Pre 06 Sam, Dean, Crowley, Cas knew nothing about Purgatory. Crowley at least knew it existed – Sam and Dean didn’t. Then they found a way to crash it and absorve the souls.
S07 Crowley knew more about Purgatory than S06. Apparently, he knew Dean was in Purgatory all that time. Crowley being Crowley, who likes to know everything, must have researched it and made improvements once he was able to pinpoint Purgatory’s location. At least, it’s not a stretch to assume he knows all about Leviathans/Purgatory because he probably kept the tablet and Kevin’s translation after Dick Roman died. Maybe he found out there was a human portal out of there (since he and his demons weren’t surprised Dean was back) and found out about/the location of that back door between Hell/Purgatory, and was smuggling innocents souls through that loophole he discovered. The secret the demon from this episode was talking about. And the place on Earth out – reason why he located Sam and Dean in Maine. And maybe he became stronger because he’s got the power of Purgatory’s souls now, as he wanted.
And maybe the reason why Sam found Bobby so damn fast was because that sector of Hell was only for the innocent, smuggled by Ajay, souls. That’s why Sam fell instantly in the right place and security was low.
Therefore, it must be difficult as ever to get in/out Hell but, after the Purgatory mayhem and acquired knowledge, there is now a back door. Freely accessed only by Reapers, because they can navigate through the realms.
Man, this is hard! It’s purely creation of my mind, because there was zero explanation in this episode on how things changed. Can’t they make it a little, tiny bit more clear?
I can’t find a freaking reason why the reaper was visible – only that it was an imposition from Crowley. But that doesn’t make sense. And how the hell that demon knew where Benny/Dean was. Because if the demon was following Dean since the beggining, he would know where Kevin was.
I agree, [b]Ale[/b], when viewers have to start creating facts or explanations in an effort to try and make sense of what’s happening on the screen, or to try and explain why strange things are happening that previously couldn’t happen within the SPN universe, then it shows the writers haven’t done a good job of writing the episode :sigh:
Hehe yeah, the getting to Maine from Michigan in less than 24 hours was a bit of a hoot. I grew up in Maine, lived there for over 30 years of my life…. 100 mile wilderness is the wildest, most isolated section of the Appalachian trail, that terminates at the top of Mt. Katahdin, pretty much in the dead center of the state. Anyone whose ever lived there or vacationed there can tell you that there are no highways in that part of the state making the drive very long, and the trail itself it very rough, an experienced hiker can take days to do that one section of trail. Dean must be a hiker extraordinaire to do it all, the drive and the hike in only 17 hours!! He must have borrowed Sam’s flux capacitor left over from his trip to Texas.
Oops the comment above got displaced! It’s in response to fanoftheboyz up a ways.
I just wanted to say to Ale, I think you’ve done a much better job of describing how the whole portal thing works than the episode has done. Your logic makes a lot more sense! I know I am complaining a lot; I actually DID like this episode quite a bit, and for this writing duo, I really have to call this one a success, but there are still these annoying plot holes that just rankle. I don’t think that we, as fans, should have to fill in so much story line ourselves to get all the points to connect.
E, I enjoyed the episode too, and usualy I don’t mind filling up the story with some imagination, but this one is making me work too damn hard. Just some little subtle tips here and there to validate my thoughts is enough. But in this one, I was able to find nothing. I’m reading the comments here for help 🙂
I rewatched the episode, though, and I think Sam spent more than 24 hours in there. 24 hours ended (the Sam scene with Bobby) by the time Dean was talking to Benny. The time from there till Benny found Sam and Bobby and then the portal was just enough to get Dean in the right spot in Maine. Don’t know how long it took, though.
Welcome aboard!
I loved how pissed Naomi got when Crowley called her a bureaucrat..
At least he didn’t call her a one percenter, which she kinda is! 😆
You know, I’ve been having this recurring thought lately about Sam and the trials, and what the final trial could be. Someone (I think it might have been Bardicvoice? If it was someone else, sorry I’m having a tough time keeping track of all the theories) has spoken about ‘purification’.
So I’ve been wondering-and I have this notion it’s going to sound quite ridiculous outside the confines of my own brain, but what the hell-what if the final trial involves Sam having to face himself? Kinda of like what they attempted to do last season with Osiris. This kind of ‘judgment’ scenario where Sam has to face all his mistakes, transgressions, regrets, fears, insecurities etc., to come to some kind of, I don’t know, pure, honest understanding of who he is and what he’s done.
There’s that thing about being your own worst enemy, so maybe the last trial could be defeating that?
And you know, I’m sure for a lot of people, geez especially Winchesters, that’s a scary enough idea that if it came down to a choice between doing that and going up against a pack of hungry Hellhounds, they might actually prefer to choose door number 2.
I think it could be an interesting character study, though I’m not sure how that would have anything to do with closing the gates of Hell? Still, it could give us a chance to get a really good glimpse into Sam’s head, maybe even clear up some of those lingering, er, issues *cough* not looking *cough*, too.
Probably just equal parts wishful thinking and ridiculous idea, though. 😕
Since it’s Sam I doubt it. It’s obvious (at least to me) that they don’t care about Sam’s character so I don’t see them taking any time to actually show this.
Since that would imply the writers give even half a damn about Sam’s character, I’m thinking it’s not even a consideration.
PaintedWolf, I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all. I think it’s great! I have no idea it that is what they are planning, but it would be a fantastic why to deal with all of Sam’s past transgression and put them to bed in a satisfying way. But it would definitely have to be down better then DYL and 2 Dean would need to be there to defend him in some way.
[quote]PaintedWolf, I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all. I think it’s great! I have no idea it that is what they are planning, but it would be a fantastic why to deal with all of Sam’s past transgression and put them to bed in a satisfying way. But it would definitely have to be down better then DYL and 2 Dean would need to be there to defend him in some way.[/quote]
I actually think that Sam has dealt with his transgressions due to jumping into the pit and his time in the cage. In fact, I think he mentioned something to that effect last season. Can’t remember the exact phrasing he used.
What I got from what he said is that he feels he’s paid for everything and no longer feels guilty.
Jo1027, I can see how my statement could be misinterpreted, but I wasn’t trying to say that Sam, himself, hasn’t been beyond punished for what he did in S4. Just like I don’t think Dean had anything thing that he should feel guilty for in DYL. BUT I think that storyline ended abruptly in SS. And by the time the real Sam came back in S6, it was too late to deal with any aftermath. And to me, it never felt fully resolved.
That was why I was actually excited about Dean’s accusations in SC because I thought it would be like re-breaking a bone that hadn’t healed quite correctly. But it still hasn’t gone anywhere so far. So if there was an opportunity to resolve some of the malingering issues. I would be all for it. (although I’m still not sure I saying this correctly)
And like E said if it could burn off all demon blood traces and make him normal all the better!
That is true, Sam may feel that he’s dealt with everything that happened before Hell, but maybe what about the stuff after Hell? Soulless Sam, the hallucinations on Luci, what was going on in his head while Dean was in Purgatory, etc?
I was thinking something like that, but having the demon blood and some of the stuff from the past (especially the stuff Dean still apparently has issues with) I wouldn’t mind seeing.
I guess I’m thinking more along the lines that feeling you’ve paid your dues doesn’t necessarily have to mean you’ve faced the reasons why you’ve done the things you’ve done. If that makes sense.
Anyway, what do I know? Hardly any of my theories, etc actaully come to pass on the Show, but I’d love it if this did. 🙂
[quote]That is true, Sam may feel that he’s dealt with everything that happened before Hell, but maybe what about the stuff after Hell? Soulless Sam, the hallucinations on Luci, what was going on in his head while Dean was in Purgatory, etc?
I was thinking something like that, but having the demon blood and some of the stuff from the past (especially the stuff Dean still apparently has issues with) I wouldn’t mind seeing.
I guess I’m thinking more along the lines that feeling you’ve paid your dues doesn’t necessarily have to mean you’ve faced the reasons why you’ve done the things you’ve done. If that makes sense.
Anyway, what do I know? Hardly any of my theories, etc actaully come to pass on the Show, but I’d love it if this did. :-)[/quote]
The reason Sam did what he did was because he thought killing Lilith was saving the last seal. Since he didn’t know otherwise I don’t see why he should feel guilty about that. Dean didn’t know either. The only one who did know was Cas and he sure hasn’t shown any remorse.
Dean’s issues with Sam are his issues to resolve and not Sam’s.
PaintedWolf, I agree with Kelly (again!) I think it would be such a huge relief for Sam if the trials actually burned off all of the remaining demon blood, including the blood fed to him as a baby, rendering him completely human. I think a huge part of Sam wanting ‘normal’ and ‘safe’ stem from the fact, that from infancy he’s not been normal. It would be a huge weight lifted from him I think.
[quote]PaintedWolf, I agree with Kelly (again!) I think it would be such a huge relief for Sam if the trials actually burned off all of the remaining demon blood, including the blood fed to him as a baby, rendering him completely human. I think a huge part of Sam wanting ‘normal’ and ‘safe’ stem from the fact, that from infancy he’s not been normal. It would be a huge weight lifted from him I think.[/quote]
I thought Sam said that when he and Dean were rescued from the nunnery that he was cleaned of demon blood by whoever rescued him. Was there something said after that about him still having demon blood? If there was, I don’t recall it.
He was cleansed after the convent, but then in My Bloody Valentine, Sam drank a bunch under the influence of Famine and in Swan Song, of course, he drank gallons of demon blood. I’m pretty sure Castiel was in his Debby Downer mode of saying that much DB would change Sam forever, which was Cas’s go to position most of the time. So basically we don’t know how clear Sam is of demon blood. He could be clean, he could have residual effects.
[quote]He was cleansed after the convent, but then in My Bloody Valentine, Sam drank a bunch under the influence of Famine and in Swan Song, of course, he drank gallons of demon blood. I’m pretty sure Castiel was in his Debby Downer mode of saying that much DB would change Sam forever, which was Cas’s go to position most of the time. So basically we don’t know how clear Sam is of demon blood. He could be clean, he could have residual effects.[/quote]
I’d forgotten that they were in season 5. I hated season 5 and so have tried to forget everything from them.
Cas also said that he wouldn’t be Sam and that he wouldn’t wake up from having his soul restored so I don’t believe anything he says at this point. Sam is stronger than everyone gives him credit for IMO.
I think when Azazel bled into his mouth, the db became part of his DNA, but it was only activated when he was around or when Sam drank more db. So I think it is still apart of him unless it was cleaned up with his body was pulled out of the cage, but I don’t think so.
You really hated S5? Man, S4 and 5 war for top spot in my affection. Although S3 is right up there too.
I always thought that the “cleansing” had to do specifically with Sam’s addition. He indicated that he wasn’t craving demon blood after he and Dean were rescued and he was cleansed. I never even thought that it might have had something to do with the demon blood inside him from Azazel…. although I guess it could have meant that too.
I think it would be a great storyline, but the demon blood makes Sam partly who he is, him learning to except that was a major character development, the dark-side of Sam is what makes him a more intriguing character? 🙂
Wow such a build up for the eps and the only scenes I can watch out of them are basically Deans. Its like hell and purgatory being scary just ain’t happening. I will have those moments at the beginning of season of team purgatory trying to get out of there and thank god for that but its like Sam just kinda walking into both places and makes it look so easy to go in and out of. And sad to see Benny gone I really liked him and his friendship with Dean. Granted I know we have his bones still but if Ty has availability hopefully we can see Benny again. Like to see him come back. But even Bobby its like I miss him but they can’t keep him coming back just takes away from the eps that he died in in S7. I just have to think to myself saver eps or not. Sad when last weeks eps with the kids looks more exciting then this one lol.
I felt confused during and after this episode as it zoomed by very quickly and I didn’t feel as though the task of rescuing a good soul from Hell was given the weight and gravitas that it should have had.
SPN has spent years building up interesting mythos about Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory but I felt that this episode retconned a lot of that mythos and it left me with some questions:
– if it took Dean a year to escape from Purgatory, even with Benny and Castiel’s help, how did Sam manage the same task in a number of hours?
– how are Reapers now visible to people who aren’t about to die and why on earth would there be Reapers who take souls across the ‘borders’ of Heaven and Hell?
– If Purgatory is Hell-adjacent, why was Crowley so clueless as to where it was when he was looking for it a few seasons ago?
– Do all Crossroads Demons have red eyes (now)? And do all Crossroads Demons give in so easily when being questioned? I mean, splashing with Holy Water is not the worst torment the Winchesters have inflicted on Demons in the past and those Demons didn’t spill their guts so easily.
– How is Crowley generally bad at locating the Winchesters but suddenly he can find them in the middle of a forest in the middle of nowhere?
I would have liked it if this episode had been a two-parter and they’d taken time to develop the story more.
It would have been great to see Sam experiencing Hell and Purgatory in a more emotional or visceral way. Dean has been trapped in both places and it would have been interesting to see Sam learning more about his big brother through experiencing the horrors of Hell and Purgatory a bit.
It would have been nice to see Benny get a bit more screen-time given that he was sacrificing himself for Sam at Dean’s request. Benny was an interesting character and I wish they’d spent a bit more time fleshing him out – he sort of disappeared just when he was getting very intriguing and then he popped up again to get killed.
It would have been nice to have seen a bit more time with Bobby. They went to the bother of getting the actor to guest star so why not make longer use of him for a two-parter story?
Naomi has potential as a cool character if they use her properly. It was interesting to see her trying to win Dean over using charm and favours. I had thought that she was nothing but commanding and bossy, so seeing another side of her was great.
Crowley is a great big-bad and I usually enjoy his presence in an episode but for some reason I just wasn’t feeling him today – he came across as pretty irritating rather than charmingly dangerous. Perhaps it was the writing?
The pacing in this season of SPN is really out out of whack at times, it seems as though this week’s episode was designated as the one in which things needed to happen to move the plot on and, by jingo, they *were* going to happen whether it made perfect sense or not.
Yeah, so… after watching this I’m not sure what I think. Which I suppose can be seen as being better than not liking the episode…?
I’m pretty much in agreement with you, ciar.
It wasn’t as bad an episode as I’d feared, but it really messed with the whole idea that what these boys (men) have done over the years is supposed to be DIFFICULT.
It was simply [b]too easy[/b] to get into Purgatory/Hell and out again. Sam and Dean have fought and scraped and sacrificed so friggin’ much over the years to have it all boil down to [b]”hold my hand, and I’ll take you there[/b]”. *Another song reference! Let’s all sing together 😀 * … Just No.
Other thoughts….
TOO RUSHED. Neither hell nor purgatory was frightening. Remember when episodes were actually chilling, if not actually scary? Yea, me neither. Been awhile. Bobby’s rescue was way to easy/fast/undeveloped.
Naomi v Crowley. Don’t want either one as a frenemy. Can we just let them take each other out?
Those angel blades are really big deals. Better than Ruby’s knife. Why don’t Sam and Dean have one yet? After all the angels they’ve been around, you think they’d have picked one up and hung on to it. (Or at least, Sam should’ve kept Thors hammer. 😀 )
That S&D hug was actually one of the better ones. Definitely better than in 8.01. I can’t decide if the other two hugs (S&B, D&B) were meant serve as a foil to highlight intensity of S&D relationship, or if these writers simply wanted a bunch of hugs.
All the writers this season seem to be about as subtle as a hammer on the head. We’ve been bashed – along with Sam – so many times about the whole “not looking, taking a year off” thing, that it’s obvious they’re coming back to it. First Southern Comfort, just so we know Dean is pissed. Then Meg’s comment -which could have been a ‘shut up and get over it’ knock to the fans. But having Bobby blast him again in this one? Nope. It’s gonna be addressed. I just hope it’s worth all the fuss.
Current score;
Sam – 5 (Heaven, Cage, Purgatory, Hell, Purgatory again)
Dean – 3 (Heaven, Hell, Purgatory)
Ok writers, it’s obviously Dean’s turn. Ready set go! 😉
You nailed it…This was without a doubt a two episode story. A lot of the plot holes and “easiness” could have been fixed if the team had stretched this episode into 2 parts. How about 1 less filler episode and 1 more myth arc episode and fix these glaring issues? A two part episode with a mini cliffhanger would have had me begging for next week>
Great summary of the things that made me go “huh?”
Thanks for such a fair review. It helped remind me there were some good parts to this episode – this game-changing episode. But I am still left with an overwhelming disgust with what this episode has done to to undercut the worlds of Supernatural.
Dean came back from Hell a broken man. Memories from Hell drove Sam crazy. Why? Didn’t faze Bobby. His great mental and emotional fortitude had previously been so well hidden by his role as a bitter alcoholic…
It took Castiel and most of a garrison forty years to rescue Dean from Hell. Why didn’t they just walk in like Sam did. Hell time was in synch with earth time for Sam too.
Come to think of it – why didn’t either Winchester manage to save the other or their father. And, for Pete’s sake, to have Sam and Bobby just stroll on out through the National Park of Purgatory? No wonder Dean could just drop any angst about Purgatory after one episode. It was an extended camping trip.
Way to gut the mythos of the past seven seasons.
Not sure how to get over this…never mind the other plot holes (holes? Hell, chasms). This episode may have ruined the entire series for me – I am left hoping this will have been part of someone’s bad dream because otherwise, the Winchesters have been pathetic crybabies and drama queens.
Maybe I can just pretend this episode doesn’t exist?
[quote]Thanks for such a fair review. It helped remind me there were some good parts to this episode – this game-changing episode. But I am still left with an overwhelming disgust with what this episode has done to to undercut the worlds of Supernatural.
Dean came back from Hell a broken man. Memories from Hell drove Sam crazy. Why? Didn’t faze Bobby. His great mental and emotional fortitude had previously been so well hidden by his role as a bitter alcoholic…
It took Castiel and most of a garrison forty years to rescue Dean from Hell. Why didn’t they just walk in like Sam did. Hell time was in synch with earth time for Sam too.
Come to think of it – why didn’t either Winchester manage to save the other or their father. And, for Pete’s sake, to have Sam and Bobby just stroll on out through the National Park of Purgatory? No wonder Dean could just drop any angst about Purgatory after one episode. It was an extended camping trip.
Way to gut the mythos of the past seven seasons.
Not sure how to get over this…never mind the other plot holes (holes? Hell, chasms). This episode may have ruined the entire series for me – I am left hoping this will have been part of someone’s bad dream because otherwise, the Winchesters have been pathetic crybabies and drama queens.
Maybe I can just pretend this episode doesn’t exist?[/quote]
I was also wondering how Hell and Purgatory time were in synch with Earth – it didn’t make sense to me, given past mythos that states these realms have time that runs at different speeds 😕
I also mentioned, in a post above, that I was surprised at Bobby’s amazing ability to be trapped in Hell for longer than either Dean or John Winchester and yet to still be relatively himself and unscathed.
I really don’t know why the show runners and writers decided to muck about with previously established mythos quite so much this year and in this episode.
Is Bobby being the one who told Sam and Dean not to look for each other if they died etc actually canon or is it an additional retcon to the retconned statement in S8E01? I can generally keep most of SPN’s big canon facts straight in my head but, as of S8, I just don’t know what’s what any more *sigh*
I think the situations were a little different. With Dean, Alistair tortured him for 30 years, till Dean finally broke and started doing the torturing for his remaining 10 years in hell. This resulted in the breaking of the first seal. Sam spent about 180 years in the cage with Lucifer and Michael. I don’t think Bobby experienced the same type or level of torture.
But why? Crowley goes to all the trouble to take Bobby to Hell and then doesn’t try to break him? It makes no sense, at all.
[quote]But why? Crowley goes to all the trouble to take Bobby to Hell and then doesn’t try to break him? It makes no sense, at all.[/quote]
Well.. because he could, and he’s a grade A dick. Also gotta remember that Crowley has his hands kinda full right now.
The thing that always tortured Dean the most was the fact that he tortured others. But Crowley wouldn’t want a righteous man to spill blood in Hell, because he definitely doesn’t want Lucifer out his cage.
No, he certainly does not! Lucifer would not only trump his leadership but would probably kill him!
Just to spite the Winchester maybe
[quote]I think the situations were a little different. With Dean, Alistair tortured him for 30 years, till Dean finally broke and started doing the torturing for his remaining 10 years in hell. This resulted in the breaking of the first seal. Sam spent about 180 years in the cage with Lucifer and Michael. I don’t think Bobby experienced the same type or level of torture.[/quote]
I see your point but I was thinking that because of the way that time runs in Hell, Bobby actually spent longer than Dean, Sam, or John spent in Hell.
Dean was in Hell for 3 Earth months = 40 years
John was there for almost an Earth year = 100 years
Bobby was in Hell for 18 Earth months = 100+ years
Plus, I don’t see why the Demons of Hell wouldn’t enjoy getting Bobby Singer (one of their Arch Nemesis) to torture and play with. I mean, he sent lots of them to Hell, he specialised in Demonology, so having Bobby in Hell is like having a Cop sent to Prison i.e. open season on getting revenge.
Dean’s 40 years can only be explained if there is a special place in Hell where they are able to screw up with time to a limit in order to make John/Dean break in the scheduled time for the Apocalypse. If he took 30 Earth years to break, Sam would die from old age before they had a chance to jump start the Apocalypse, demon blood or not.
[quote]Plus, I don’t see why the Demons of Hell wouldn’t enjoy getting Bobby Singer (one of their Arch Nemesis) to torture and play with. I mean, he sent lots of them to Hell, he specialised in Demonology, so having Bobby in Hell is like having a Cop sent to Prison i.e. open season on getting revenge.[/quote]
Ciar, I think we should look again at Crowley’s statement in The Man Who Knew Too Much. He hates torturing and he thinks most souls in heaven has become masochists anyway. His idea of Hell is a never ending queue, remember. This Demon, (If he really is a Demon) loves order and hates barbaric act. Could be he sees torture as uneducated and non high class for a classy Demon like him. Azazel, Lucifer, Lilith, when they possess human they never think of appearance. Crowley always try to look pristine. He is the bureaucrat, I think.
Personally, I think his Hell is kinda meh. I like Azazel’s Hell better.
[quote][quote]Plus, I don’t see why the Demons of Hell wouldn’t enjoy getting Bobby Singer (one of their Arch Nemesis) to torture and play with. I mean, he sent lots of them to Hell, he specialised in Demonology, so having Bobby in Hell is like having a Cop sent to Prison i.e. open season on getting revenge.[/quote]
Ciar, I think we should look again at Crowley’s statement in The Man Who Knew Too Much. He hates torturing and he thinks most souls in heaven has become masochists anyway. His idea of Hell is a never ending queue, remember. This Demon, (If he really is a Demon) loves order and hates barbaric act. Could be he sees torture as uneducated and non high class for a classy Demon like him. Azazel, Lucifer, Lilith, when they possess human they never think of appearance. Crowley always try to look pristine. He is the bureaucrat, I think.
Personally, I think his Hell is kinda meh. I like Azazel’s Hell better.[/quote]
[b]Kaj[/b], I think that if I had to state a preference for the atmosphere or ‘vibe’ in Hell, I’d definitely pick Azazel’s Hell. It’s old school, it goes for the jugular in terms of emotions, it has more dramatic potential, and it gives more of a sense of torment than the bureaucratic Hell that Crowley initiated 🙂
I dunno, I’ve seen Crowly stuck in too many Devil’s traps to think he’s anything but a demon. Plus, you’d think after 4 seasons Cas would have said something about Crowley not really being a demon since he can tell the difference! If all the sudden he’s really an angel or something that would be a huge plot gap!
I am curious as to where it is stated that Sam spent 180 years in the cage. I am pretty sure that if you were basing it on how long Dean was in the pit that this episode just proved that bit of speculation erroneous. Time ran 1:1 with earth time for Sam this episode, nor did Bobby show any indication of a long time lapse…in fact, he says they went off the rails last year.
[quote]I am curious as to where it is stated that Sam spent 180 years in the cage. I am pretty sure that if you were basing it on how long Dean was in the pit that this episode just proved that bit of speculation erroneous. Time ran 1:1 with earth time for Sam this episode, nor did Bobby show any indication of a long time lapse…in fact, he says they went off the rails last year.[/quote]
It is slightly confusing, isn’t it? As far as I remember, show canon stated that Dean spent 40 years in Hell and that John spent 100 years in Hell.
But when it comes to Sam’s time in the Cage I have no recollection of how long show canon says he spent there (hopefully, someone else has this info) and I’m not sure if there was a time difference between Purgatory and Earth – I don’t remember S8 mentioning anything on this issue (again, I hope someone else can put their finger on canon facts for this).
[quote]I am curious as to where it is stated that Sam spent 180 years in the cage. I am pretty sure that if you were basing it on how long Dean was in the pit that this episode just proved that bit of speculation erroneous. Time ran 1:1 with earth time for Sam this episode, nor did Bobby show any indication of a long time lapse…in fact, he says they went off the rails last year.[/quote]
Prior to this episode, hell time was 1 month on earth = 10 years in hell. So, Dean was there 4 months (felt like 40 years), Sam’s soul was in Lucifer’s cage for about 18 months (180 years). Not sure why Bobby’s time there is being treated differently, or if the writers just forgot, just like they did with the enochian sigils burned in to Sam and Dean’s ribs.
[quote][quote]I am curious as to where it is stated that Sam spent 180 years in the cage. I am pretty sure that if you were basing it on how long Dean was in the pit that this episode just proved that bit of speculation erroneous. Time ran 1:1 with earth time for Sam this episode, nor did Bobby show any indication of a long time lapse…in fact, he says they went off the rails last year.[/quote]
Prior to this episode, hell time was 1 month on earth = 10 years in hell. So, Dean was there 4 months (felt like 40 years), Sam’s soul was in Lucifer’s cage for about 18 months (180 years). Not sure why Bobby’s time there is being treated differently, or if the writers just forgot, just like they did with the enochian sigils burned in to Sam and Dean’s ribs.[/quote]
[b]njspnfan[/b], is it canon that Sam spent 18 months in the Cage? The reason I ask is that in the final episode of S5 we see Sam standing under the lampost looking in at Dean in Lisa’s house. I had always thought that this scene was meant to signify that Sam didn’t spend more than a few months in the Cage. Also, if Sam spent a year hunting with the Campbells, after he was released from the Cage (while Dean was living with Lisa and Ben), does that mean that 30 months passed between Sam going into the Cage and the first episode of S6? I’m getting 30 months from 18 in the cage + 12 hunting with the Campbells.
Blimey, my brain hurts trying to keep track of this 😉 .
[quote][quote][quote]I am curious as to where it is stated that Sam spent 180 years in the cage. I am pretty sure that if you were basing it on how long Dean was in the pit that this episode just proved that bit of speculation erroneous. Time ran 1:1 with earth time for Sam this episode, nor did Bobby show any indication of a long time lapse…in fact, he says they went off the rails last year.[/quote]
Prior to this episode, hell time was 1 month on earth = 10 years in hell. So, Dean was there 4 months (felt like 40 years), Sam’s soul was in Lucifer’s cage for about 18 months (180 years). Not sure why Bobby’s time there is being treated differently, or if the writers just forgot, just like they did with the enochian sigils burned in to Sam and Dean’s ribs.[/quote]
[b]njspnfan[/b], is it canon that Sam spent 18 months in the Cage? The reason I ask is that in the final episode of S5 we see Sam standing under the lampost looking in at Dean in Lisa’s house. I had always thought that this scene was meant to signify that Sam didn’t spend more than a few months in the Cage. Also, if Sam spent a year hunting with the Campbells, after he was released from the Cage (while Dean was living with Lisa and Ben), does that mean that 30 months passed between Sam going into the Cage and the first episode of S6? I’m getting 30 months from 18 in the cage + 12 hunting with the Campbells.
Blimey, my brain hurts trying to keep track of this 😉 .[/quote]
Mine too. Sam wasn’t physically in the cage for long but his soul was stuck there for the year he was hunting with the Campbells and without Dean, plus another 6 months that they were hunting together; that’s how I got to the 18 month number. I think the amount of time was referenced a couple of times in S6 as well.
The writers have gotten a little sloppy with continuity, especially since S6; I read on this site that there was a significant turnover of writers after S5, and the show runner changed from EK to SG so that might explain some of the discrepancies. I also think some of the myth arc makes it difficult for the writers going forward so sometimes they choose to ignore it or skim over it, which is a big problem with such a dedicated fan base.
Thanks for the explanation, the numbers make sense to me now 🙂
Don’t you think that watching (carefully!) all previous episodes of a series that you are going to be writing for should be mandatory?!, It’s pretty clear to me that some of the writers absolutely haven’t seen even some of the previous episodes, let alone all of them. Even Robbie Thompson…the best thing to happen to the Supernatural writing staff since season 5 didn’t know about the sigils on Sam and Dean’s ribs…. just? Huh? What? Why not? Doesn’t anyone do their work any more? It may be a pretty daunting task to watch all the episodes, but geez, its your JOB… and it can be done over the summer, when you know, they aren’t working (and probably STILL getting paid). 😮 humph.
[quote]Don’t you think that watching (carefully!) all previous episodes of a series that you are going to be writing for should be mandatory?!, It’s pretty clear to me that some of the writers absolutely haven’t seen even some of the previous episodes, let alone all of them. Even Robbie Thompson…the best thing to happen to the Supernatural writing staff since season 5 didn’t know about the sigils on Sam and Dean’s ribs…. just? Huh? What? Why not? Doesn’t anyone do their work any more? It may be a pretty daunting task to watch all the episodes, but geez, its your JOB… and it can be done over the summer, when you know, they aren’t working (and probably STILL getting paid). 😮 humph.[/quote]
Yup, [b]E[/b], I agree with you. I think the new SPN writers and show runner need to try harder to keep that sense of consistency with past characterisation and mythos. I mean, the writers of the new Dallas have tons of complicated, soap opera backstory to cover for the characters and they’ve done their homework and haven’t contradicted any previous stories from old Dallas. I don’t see why SPN’s writing team can’t do the same.
[quote]Don’t you think that watching (carefully!) all previous episodes of a series that you are going to be writing for should be mandatory?!, It’s pretty clear to me that some of the writers absolutely haven’t seen even some of the previous episodes, let alone all of them. Even Robbie Thompson…the best thing to happen to the Supernatural writing staff since season 5 didn’t know about the sigils on Sam and Dean’s ribs…. just? Huh? What? Why not? Doesn’t anyone do their work any more? It may be a pretty daunting task to watch all the episodes, but geez, its your JOB… and it can be done over the summer, when you know, they aren’t working (and probably STILL getting paid). 😮 humph.[/quote]
I’m willing to give the writers a break and admit that seven and a half seasons is a bit much to ask them to watch before they write an episode. But there should be a show Bible somewhere that has kept track of what has happened to characters and especially how supernatural creatures, non earth places like Heaven, Hell and Purgatory work. In a pinch a writer can zip over to SupernaturalWiki and find the answers.
If they want to change the mythology as much as they did in this episode a line or two stating that once you broke the barrier to Purgatory or since the Apocalypse happened, or any other event that could have changed the way the world worked happened now whatever the writers decided to change can happen. I can buy that stopping the Apocalypse, or Dean getting out of Purgatory, or Dean going INTO Purgatory, or Sam getting out of the Cage could have upset a cosmic balance. But for the show to never give so much as lip service to the fact that basic underlying functions of canon have changed is a real issue to me.
But then I never understood how Castiel all on his little own was able to find the hidden Cage, go get Sam by himself and NOT NOTICE that he left Sam’s soul behind; when the whole point of season 4 was that no one knew were Lucifers’s Cage was, it took an entire group of angels to rescue Dean and in season 5 Cas could spot a soul being transported in a suitcase. I forced myself to wave all that off because they had to get Sam out someway, but now the changes in canon are really annoying.
[quote]
I’m willing to give the writers a break and admit that seven and a half seasons is a bit much to ask them to watch before they write an episode. But there should be a show Bible somewhere that has kept track of what has happened to characters and especially how supernatural creatures, non earth places like Heaven, Hell and Purgatory work. In a pinch a writer can zip over to SupernaturalWiki and find the answers.
If they want to change the mythology as much as they did in this episode a line or two stating that once you broke the barrier to Purgatory or since the Apocalypse happened, or any other event that could have changed the way the world worked happened now whatever the writers decided to change can happen. I can buy that stopping the Apocalypse, or Dean getting out of Purgatory, or Dean going INTO Purgatory, or Sam getting out of the Cage could have upset a cosmic balance. But for the show to never give so much as lip service to the fact that basic underlying functions of canon have changed is a real issue to me.
But then I never understood how Castiel all on his little own was able to find the hidden Cage, go get Sam by himself and NOT NOTICE that he left Sam’s soul behind; when the whole point of season 4 was that no one knew were Lucifers’s Cage was, it took an entire group of angels to rescue Dean and in season 5 Cas could spot a soul being transported in a suitcase. I forced myself to wave all that off because they had to get Sam out someway, but now the changes in canon are really annoying.[/quote]
Yeah, I’d agree with you on this one. If the writers had made some sort of attempt to address the issue of the ease in traversing between the various realms, and made an effort to address their changing of other canon, I would probably wouldn’t be having as much of a hard time with Sam’s second trial.
As for Castiel, he’s used as a magic McGuffin – he’s useful to fix whatever plot-corner the writers get themselves into with cliffhangers and big-bads. So, he can often ‘learn’ to do things that he was positively unable to do in previous seasons or episodes.
I guess as a performer myself (opera) I absolutely can’t see that watching all the episodes is too much to ask of writers whose contributions have the potential to benefit or damage all that came before and all that will follow. It would be like me committing to performing in a opera without reading the whole thing and/or translating all of the text. Is it a pain to translate 327 pages of Italian into English even if some of it doesn’t apply to me or my character? Yes. Do I do it anyway? Yes. How can I possibly make informed decisions about my own character if I have no idea what’s going on in the show as a whole? Seems like a no-brainer to me.
[quote]I guess as a performer myself (opera) I absolutely can’t see that watching all the episodes is too much to ask of writers whose contributions have the potential to benefit or damage all that came before and all that will follow. It would be like me committing to performing in a opera without reading the whole thing and/or translating all of the text. Is it a pain to translate 327 pages of Italian into English even if some of it doesn’t apply to me or my character? Yes. Do I do it anyway? Yes. How can I possibly make informed decisions about my own character if I have no idea what’s going on in the show as a whole? Seems like a no-brainer to me.[/quote]
Your method of committing to your performance sounds perfectly normal to me.
I was hoping that the SPN actors would act as some sort of quality control for their characters, as in they know the characters well and know what their characters have been through over the years. I hoped that they would be able to point out when the writing team was straying too far OOC when writing characters or mythos.
I know that other WFB commenters have pointed out that the Js see their role as to act what’s written for them but I think that is simplifying what they owe to the integrity of their characters. I definitely don’t expect them to spend every moment monitoring what’s written for them, nor do I expect them to be hugely precious about their characters, but I would like them to point out if the writers are mucking about with their characters to the point the writers have been this season.
I know the actors always commit to providing a good performance, no matter what’s written for them, and over the years I’ve thought that they’ve been great in some awfully written episodes. I was just hoping they would also be able to stop the characterisation from heading off in a strange direction.
I was also hoping that the overall show runner’s job was to ensure continuity and consistency both with previous seasons and across the current season but I don’t see much evidence of that this year.
Thanks ciar… 🙂
I think that the actor’s do police their roles at least just a little, but there’s probably a very limited amount of that kind of thing that they could get away with before it became a problem. I think the J’s are pretty careful about choosing their battles and neither one of them seems to be the overly sensitive or complaining type.
I have heard of a few instances over the years where one of the J’s went to the writers for one reason or another: There’s the story of the season 2 eppie Houses of the Holy where both the J’s asked the writers where things where going because they didn’t want to end up in an episode of Touched By An Angel. At a con Jensen indicated that he went to Kripke at the end of season 4 because of the lack of myth arc for Dean, and that seemed to drive a little bit of what happened in season 5. And its not much of a secret that Jensen was finding it difficult to handle both how Dean was being written at the start of season 6, and with the Soulless Sam arc, he mentioned it at cons several times; (I don’t mean to say that he was unhappy or complaining, because I don’t think that he was actually unhappy with things, just that he found them hard to deal with as an actor.) And it’s been indicated that Jared went to JC this year because of the whole Sam/Amelia story. I read somewhere that Jared was nervous about how the story would play out, but felt reassured after speaking with JC. But that’s all I have heard about in 156 episodes of the show… that’s really hardly anything at all.
[quote]Thanks ciar… 🙂
I think that the actor’s do police their roles at least just a little, but there’s probably a very limited amount of that kind of thing that they could get away with before it became a problem. I think the J’s are pretty careful about choosing their battles and neither one of them seems to be the overly sensitive or complaining type.
I have heard of a few instances over the years where one of the J’s went to the writers for one reason or another: There’s the story of the season 2 eppie Houses of the Holy where both the J’s asked the writers where things where going because they didn’t want to end up in an episode of Touched By An Angel. At a con Jensen indicated that he went to Kripke at the end of season 4 because of the lack of myth arc for Dean, and that seemed to drive a little bit of what happened in season 5. And its not much of a secret that Jensen was finding it difficult to handle both how Dean was being written at the start of season 6, and with the Soulless Sam arc, he mentioned it at cons several times; (I don’t mean to say that he was unhappy or complaining, because I don’t think that he was actually unhappy with things, just that he found them hard to deal with as an actor.) And it’s been indicated that Jared went to JC this year because of the whole Sam/Amelia story. I read somewhere that Jared was nervous about how the story would play out, but felt reassured after speaking with JC. But that’s all I have heard about in 156 episodes of the show… that’s really hardly anything at all.[/quote]
That’s really interesting information, thanks for that 🙂
I’m with Jared on being nervous about the Sam and Amelia storyline, (it definitely didn’t work for me) but, unfortunately, I’m not feeling very reassured that it won’t come back into the show in some fashion. I don’t know why, but that storyline just doesn’t feel like it was properly put away by the writers. It could be me being paranoid but I feel like JC is more in favour of the types of storylines that I am not that keen on i.e. romance and normal lives.
Okay-huge speculation here, because I don’t want (or can’t ) believe JC has strayed this far frm canan on the show without good reason.
– Sam is not Sam but a clone or stunt double, if you will. Not mind control not Sam at all. This would explain the OOC behavior of Sam this season and in my opinion the odd chemistry between the brothers. Cass said that Sam was different on a subatomic level he couldn’t fix but he didn’t know what it was or if it would kill Sam. Maybe that’s because it’s not truly Sam.
-All powerful Death allowing rogue reapers! Odd.
-Ajay was not the same actor who played Bobby’s reaper in S7 and yet for several seasons and episodes we saw Tessa, the reaper, and she was always the same actress. Why the body change here? If they couldn’t get the same actor why not just have Ajay say he knew Bobby was in he’ll period. We know that wasn’t Bobby’s reaper but Dean wouldn’t know it.
-Sam strolls through purgatory and hell without a hitch. Too easy.
-Naomi gives Dean a heads up about purgatory and Crowley kills Ajay, causing Dean to go to Benny for help and distracting him from Kevin. Convenient.
-Crowley’s snitch is listening when Sam and Dean make the deal with Ajay and when Dean talks to Benny and sends him to purgatory. Odd.
-Naomi sends Bobby to heaven, hence helping Dean twice in one episode and Crowley can’t stop her. If she is so much more powerful then Crowley then she could have stopped him from taking the angel tablet herself.
-Conclusion, Naomi and Crowley have been working together since S7 to get Dick back in purgatory and the Winchesters away from any tablets. Naomi took Kevin. Pac-Man fever isn’t a “one off ” but the episode where perception and reality meet and that is the real Sam we see in that bed in the previews.
-or I’ve lost my mind over a damn TV show that I love. Lol
How I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE for something like this to be true! Oh please……just please…… Sam didn’t look for Dean because he was and still is in a coma.. just all kinds of love for this.
prix68q, Totally love your theory!
I was talking to my sister about this episode and the more I talk about the more all the things bother me. They [b]seriously[/b] screwed up seasons worth of lore in one episode. Really Really important lore.
So in an attempt to keep hope alive, we were discussing the possibilities.
The first isn’t so much a theory a wish upon a star. Ben Edlund has only done 2 episodes this season. We know Thompson is doing the next one and Carver will probably do the last. SO I’m really hoping(wishing, praying, willing to bribe if I thought it would help and I had any money)that Edlund has the two in between. I don’t think they’ve ever had a writer have 2 episodes back to back, but really there’s no reason he couldn’t, right? RIGHT?
The reason I’m so hoping for this is that Edlund is brilliant, not just with characterization and story, but also at filling it gaps in continuity. I get the impression that he is fairly obsessive about gaps in logic too. For instance he gave us the line about “Where do monster’s go when they die in Purgatory?” He also loves to do twisted weird fantastical things and he actually makes them work.
And if they are to “fix”(I say fix but in honest this would have to have been worked on weeks ago-so it’s really they just had to have a spectacular plan all along) the huge problems with the lore and fix the Sam storyline and make it all work within the season then we are going to need something amazingly, brilliantly fantastical and Edlund is definitely the man to do it. (yes I totally fan girl Edlund-don’t judge)
He is definitely someone who could make your clone story work. I don’t know how I feel about the real Sam being gone for the entire season, but if it fixed the issues I could definitely be on board.
I’m all for Ajay not really being a reaper (I did notice that he wasn’t the same guy who was in DD but I assumed they meant when they burned the flask), that would fix several problem but not the ease of getting into Hell and Purgatory and back out again. I’m all for that not being real, but if is not then why would the trial spell seemingly work.
My sister had the thought of Crowley and Naomi being in cahoots as well. Working together to get the goals they agreed upon and against one another when they don’t agree. I mentioned that hadn’t seen each other since Mesopotamia and she suggested they could be referring to a bar. HA!!
‘Kay, so fleshing out your idea for this episode. What have we been shown? Crowley seemingly did not know that rescuing a innocent from Hell was a trial to close the gates. But Naomi could easily have known if she was keeping tabs on Kevin. And she could easily set up a situation that had the made Sam believe he was in Purgatory and then Hell.
BUT it pretty much had to really be Purgatory because when Dean killed Benny he showed up there. Unless we think that was a ruse too. If it wasn’t a ruse perhaps he was one of the angels that rescued Cas so he knew where it was, but it was still pretty easy. So IDK. And why would she want the them to think they had passed a trial when they hadn’t?
Unless Naomi doesn’t want to gates to Hell closed either and that is why she is working with Crowley. Zachariah didn’t seem to have a problem with Hell and insisted things stick to there natural order.(I mention him because Naomi reminds me of the same bureaucratic mentality) So maybe the whole episode was a complete mind FU@K for the audience and the boys? Bobby was never in hell and we don’t know where he is and the trial was never passed. She and Crowley put on a light show for the boys, which had the added bonus of making her seem like she was on their side. And then did something to Sam so he thinks he passed the test. Or maybe clone!Sam.
If he is a clone, then does he KNOW that or does he think he really is Sam?
The option Theresa and I were working (a lot of this is retread theories) on is maybe there has been an interweaving of reality and illusion in every single episode (or at least the ones related to the myth arc-I will be sad if the Bunker and the MOL’s is an illusion) for ALL the characters. Cas, Kevin and both the boys, but when he touched the tablet he began to see what is real and what is not and that is why he has to protect it from Dean. But the illusion is starting to slip for all of them and that is what the next episode relates to.
For Sam’s missing months, he was completely lost and broken and WAS looking for Dean for at least a couple months, but not getting anywhere. Crowley or Naomi threw a dog in front of him and Naomi twisted his reality into a dreamlike state where he accepting Dean’s death and not hunting would be what Dean wanted him to do. Like they Manchurian Candidated his ass. But someone resurrected Don in order to push him out of that life. But Naomi keeps implanting little memories that constantly remind Sam that he wants normal. But the hold is slipping because of his bond with Dean (you know I love the brother stuff) and because he has found some middle ground with the MOL’s.
And then all the stuff up above for this episode.
I think that when Dean was able to get out of purgatory with the help of Benny they knew he would be looking for his brother so they gave him a version of Sam. What has bothered me more than Sam not looking for Dean is how did Sam and the Impala get out of Roman’s building with it being surrounded by demons and Leviathans. Just called a towing service? Crowley had an opportunity to totally rid himself of the Winchester brothers with Dean and Cass in purgatory and Sam totally alone with no backup. In the past, Sam alone, is a more focused and determined hunter so why would Crowley give Sam the opportunity to just walk away and regroup? Wasn’t it also OOC for Sam to leave Kevin just hanging in the wind with Crowley? My husband says I over think the show and he may be right but this is the only show I have ever watched for this long and the only one I’ve ever commented on, so I’m invested in the canon. JC, as Meg said to Dean last season, you’ve got some splaining to do.
KELLY, I have another theory.
I do wonder though. What’s Naomi’s reason to help the guys shut the gate of Hell? Does she really want to trap demons in hell?
So, I’m playing “If I’m Naomi”
If I’m Naomi this is what I’ll do:
I want to find the Angel tablet but Lucifer stole it. In order to find it I have to ask demons but demons are dirty and scum. I need to employ help from others. Sam and Dean. I pull Dean from purgatory by sending an angel whispering about the secret portal to a monster who I know has a good history. Dean will not accept help from any evil monster.
I can’t just spring Dean out of purgatory because Dean will get suspicious of me and ask for my other intention. Angels don’t have good track records before with him, only Cas he trusts. I can’t let Sam save Dean because he’ll find other ways instead of the portal and will probably able to spring Castiel too or perhaps ends up dead instead. I need Dean to escape through the portal and leaves Castiel.
Castiel can’t go through the portal because he’s an angel. The portal only for human. Perfect! I need to rescue him myself. Just tell him that I’ve lost many angels just to help him out. That way he’ll owe me.
Wait a second, what does Sam do? Oh, no, he’s looking for his brother but he seems to be deteriorating fast. Damn, Crowley will get him sooner and it’ll ruin my well thought out plan. I have to keep him alive until Dean gets out of Purgatory. What the heaven keeps that human so long to break out of there anyway. It’s a portal, go jump!
Sam, you’ll thank me for saving your live to be reunited your brother later. I doubt Dean will cooperate if you’re dead because you’re suicidal. Here have a dog to hit. I happen to have a widow whose husband miraculously dead in a war. Funny that some misplaced document can change one’s life but she’ll only there to distract Sam. Her husband will be back when Dean is out of Purgatory. i probably need to instil a little bit of persuasion in your mind, Sam. Only to confuse you a bit and persuade you to leave your brother alone.
Why did Castiel fix Dean’s memory?! I put it in there so he thinks that he can’t save the angel. Not because Castiel wants to stay. I haven’t done reprogramming him. I need him to owe me!
If I tell the boys about the angel tablet they’ll try to lock me in Heaven too. No, that will not do. I have to do more spying and cutting under the sheet for this. Just tell Castiel to help the boys find the demon tablet. That’ll keep Crowley busy. Sooner or later their spat will led me to the angel tablet’s location. But I have to tail them close and I need Castiel to do that.
Shit, that angel stole the angel tablet from me. I guess I have to suck up to Dean then. It’s a good thing that I remain hidden all this time. I can tell him that I’m the one who resued his friend. He’ll owe me.
Damn, I didn’t know that Castiel blabbed about me. Why did my reprogramming suddenly fail? Did he touch the angel tablet? That’s very likely. Well, I have to suck up more then. Helping Dean to complete his second trial. Make it easier with conveniently well placed reaper and everything. I will also help him put Bobby’s soul in heaven. Perfect!!
I’m not a bureaucrat. I’m a puppet master.
I have thought this most of the season! Well said! Aside from Anna (who ended up wanting to kill Sam … Um, no!) and Gabriel (who joined the party too late) he’s never trusted any of the other angels so, of course, Naomi had to spring Cas from Purgatory! She just underestimated (thank Cas) how much of a bond he has with Dean and Sam and thought she could push him far enough to kill Dean to get the tablet. Now she’s just trying to PR her way through the mess but hopefully will fail miserably!
And here is my big unpopular opinion. I loved Anna and I respected her more than any other character in season five. She was the only being who was honestly trying to STOP the Apocalypse. She didn’t dislike Sam, she just couldn’t see any other way to stop Lucifer and Michael except to kill him so he could not say yes to Lucifer. She liked Dean and didn’t want to t hurt him, but she had decided that she loved humanity and she worked to save humans, even though it meant killing Sam. Okay, I was saddened that in order to blacken Anna’s name she decided to kill Mary and John as opposed to reminding them that hey birth control was legal and available and abortion was a legal backup plan, so Sam didn’t have to be born and the Apocalypse could be postponed if Mary 1) got on the pill and/or an IUD and use condoms after Dean was born 2) John got a vasectomy 3) Mary had her tubes tied and 4) Mary agreed to terminate any pregnancy that would fit into the 10 year window for he deal with Azazel. I know Mary was pregnant with Dean and heaven forbid that abortion be mentioned, but Sam was born 4 years later and without Sam, no Apocalypse, or at least no Apocalypse that involved Mary, John and Dean.
So I give props to Anna. She chose her side, saving the world and recognized that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet and Sam was one of those eggs. The sad part was that Sam was fine with the idea that killing him and spreading his atoms across the universe might save the world. He was also fine with not being born. So I hold no grudges against Anna. If her plan had worked, Sam would not have spent 18 months or 180 days in The Cage. No other supernatural being, was willing to get their hands dirty to save the world.
[quote]And here is my big unpopular opinion. I loved Anna and I respected her more than any other character in season five. She was the only being who was honestly trying to STOP the Apocalypse. She didn’t dislike Sam, she just couldn’t see any other way to stop Lucifer and Michael except to kill him so he could not say yes to Lucifer. She liked Dean and didn’t want to t hurt him, but she had decided that she loved humanity and she worked to save humans, even though it meant killing Sam. Okay, I was saddened that in order to blacken Anna’s name she decided to kill Mary and John as opposed to reminding them that hey birth control was legal and available and abortion was a legal backup plan, so Sam didn’t have to be born and the Apocalypse could be postponed if Mary 1) got on the pill and/or an IUD and use condoms after Dean was born 2) John got a vasectomy 3) Mary had her tubes tied and 4) Mary agreed to terminate any pregnancy that would fit into the 10 year window for he deal with Azazel. I know Mary was pregnant with Dean and heaven forbid that abortion be mentioned, but Sam was born 4 years later and without Sam, no Apocalypse, or at least no Apocalypse that involved Mary, John and Dean.
So I give props to Anna. She chose her side, saving the world and recognized that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet and Sam was one of those eggs. The sad part was that Sam was fine with the idea that killing him and spreading his atoms across the universe might save the world. He was also fine with not being born. So I hold no grudges against Anna. If her plan had worked, Sam would not have spent 18 months or 180 days in The Cage. No other supernatural being, was willing to get their hands dirty to save the world.[/quote]
Total Word to everything you said Percy. I think i respected Anna a great deal. And I loved that Sam was willing to go aloing with Annas plan to kill him. I really wish it had created an emotional scene between Sam and Dean talking about it and Dean convincing Sam to keep looking for a better plan….iwith Dean making a weak joke about keeping Annas plan in reserve as plan ‘Z” instead of Dean and Cas ganging up and shutting Sam down.
I mean seriously, Sam could have gone to Anna at any time and said he wanted to end the whole problem her way.
I never saw Anna as bad either. She was trying to stop the apocalypse and in her view, if that meant one human or two had to die to do it, then so be it.
Amy, I would like a big emotional scene between them as well or even Sam trying it without Dean knowing and it failing. And then a big emotional when he finds out. But I did really like this episode.
She can probably succeeded, who knows? Maybe her plan will be carried on through S9. 😀 Honestly, I miss a genius villain after Azazel. Best villain of Supernatural. He really was a master planner.
I wish I can play “If I’m Crowley” ;P His actions are contradictory sometimes.
kaj, I think this is a great theory too. I think something like this is up.
[quote]Okay-huge speculation here, because I don’t want (or can’t ) believe JC has strayed this far frm canan on the show without good reason.
– Sam is not Sam but a clone or stunt double, if you will. Not mind control not Sam at all. This would explain the OOC behavior of Sam this season and in my opinion the odd chemistry between the brothers. Cass said that Sam was different on a subatomic level he couldn’t fix but he didn’t know what it was or if it would kill Sam. Maybe that’s because it’s not truly Sam.
I have been thinking about this incessantly…just cant get this out of my mind. I both abhore this idea and love it simaltaneously.
Sam as a clone: First why i dont like this. First a clone is a seperate entity and the more unique experiences it has the more it becomes a completely seperate person. Second: A clone would mean OUR Sam has not been on the show for what? 17 episodes. Which would indicate that while JAred is important out SAm is not important. Anyone wearing his face will be accepted by his family and friends.
I’m intrigued and sort of love it if its gets twisted … like what if Sam was in a coma. And I thought…what if Ameila was a witch or a shamon or something who was trying to help Sam pcychicly reach Dean but something goes wrong. Ok…if he was in a coma how is Sam running around with Dean acting all kinds of OOC? What about astral projection? If Ameila the witch/shamon could make him corporeal…..
And if Sam is in a supernaturally induced coma what if al his talk of ‘normal’ is his ‘normal awake state? But Sam is getting both reality and coma reality all mixed up. Doesn’t explain why though. But it would explain Sams lack of POV…. heck Sam wouldn’t know his own POV
I know there are a LOT of holes in this idea but it would give Ameila a reason to exist within the supernatural world. And why Carver seemed to be so enamered of her. MAybe when she was asking Sam to make a choice she was really trying to get him out of the coma and back into the real world.
IDK. So many holes. But it gives me hope. Thanks!!
[quote] I’m glad Sam went to purgatory since now he understands what Dean went through so now there’s an understanding between them about that, ![/quote]
Was there enough killing for Sam to really understand what Dean went through in Purgatory? It looked a lot easier than the constant fighting that Dean seemed to do. I’m glad Sam got a taste of it, but Purgatory seemed to easy and Hell seemed too easy. Probably just my nerves speaking!
[quote][quote] I’m glad Sam went to purgatory since now he understands what Dean went through so now there’s an understanding between them about that, ![/quote]
Was there enough killing for Sam to really understand what Dean went through in Purgatory? It looked a lot easier than the constant fighting that Dean seemed to do. I’m glad Sam got a taste of it, but Purgatory seemed to easy and Hell seemed too easy. Probably just my nerves speaking![/quote]
There was only so much they could cram in to 1 hour; this should have been a 2-parter.
I liked some of the episode and thought it was light years above the last one. Liked that Sam actually got to talk to someone other than Dean. Didn’t like that once again he’s being called on not looking for Dean. They need to resolve this issue and lay it to rest IMO. And soon.
Some of the plot holes and continuity issues were big enough to drive several buses through. It seems the writers are re-writing canon at a faster and faster pace. Soon there will be no canon, just each week’s episode.
[quote]Some of the plot holes and continuity issues were big enough to drive several buses through. It seems the writers are re-writing canon at a faster and faster pace. Soon there will be no canon, just each week’s episode.[/quote]
This episode blew holes as big as Texas in the Supernatural mythos. Hell, Purgatory, Reapers….then add in it needed time travel for Dean to get from where he was to Maine – especially with stops along the way. Oh, and Hell time is all the sudden the same as earth time?
The only saving graces were superb acting and wonderful visual effects.
I totally agree that last night totally demolished established canon on Hell (how to get in, how to get out), Purgatory (we no longer need and eclipse and we don’t have to get a virgin to a blood bank), the Reapers (death is our Lord and Master and can kill anything AND has huge rules about the natural order, but I’m going to break those rules for no good reason). The only think I’m fine with is the travel rate of the Impala. We have seen it travel distances in times that mean they practically have to break the sound barrier. Plus, I used to watch One Life To Live. In it there was a character named Eli. Once he got there people in the show were able to travel huge distances in 5 minutes. This got attributed to Eli’s transporters. I just figure Eli left transporters all over the United States and Sam and Dean keep using them to get from place to place. Frankly Sam made it to Kermit Texas in record time and he wasn’t even in the magic Impala. Eli’s transporters strike again.
[quote]I totally agree that last night totally demolished established canon on Hell (how to get in, how to get out), Purgatory (we no longer need and eclipse and we don’t have to get a virgin to a blood bank), the Reapers (death is our Lord and Master and can kill anything AND has huge rules about the natural order, but I’m going to break those rules for no good reason). The only think I’m fine with is the travel rate of the Impala. We have seen it travel distances in times that mean they practically have to break the sound barrier. Plus, I used to watch One Life To Live. In it there was a character named Eli. Once he got there people in the show were able to travel huge distances in 5 minutes. This got attributed to Eli’s transporters. I just figure Eli left transporters all over the United States and Sam and Dean keep using them to get from place to place. Frankly Sam made it to Kermit Texas in record time and he wasn’t even in the magic Impala. Eli’s transporters strike again.[/quote]
Yes, looks like Dean made pretty good time in the Impala going from Missouri to Maine 🙂
Wasn’t Ajay a rogue reaper I think Sam also referred to him as a hell coyote. They have secret ways in and out. I just found it strange that Crowley knew Ajay but didn’t know these other ways in and out of purgatory?
And if Crowley knew that Ajay or other rogue reapers knew these ways, why wasn’t he torturing them instead of the Alpha, since apparently everyone could see Ajay.
I am usually pretty easy going on established lore, because most of the time, the case can be made that they are simply expanding their knowledge of the lore, rather than it changing. But lots of this goes in direct contradiction to what was previously established. Many of the things were extremely well established. Like whole seasons worth of establishing. So they are going to need to do a whole lot of “fixing” and explaining. Or it’s going to start looking like Charmed where you just change the rules as you go. And that will not go over well in this fan base.
Do we know if Ajay was really a reaper? Except for the demon that was being tortured, did anyone else call him a reaper besides Sam and Dean? Maybe he was really a demon doing jobs on the side. He acted like Crowley knew what he did and had approved it. He definitely didn’t look like Bobby’s reaper and Tessa told Dean that reapers didn’t know where souls went.
My bad. I had attributed Sam’s transversing of Texas in record breaking time to magic hair. Are these portals big enough to move the Impala? Otherwise I think I’m just going to think of Baby as a kind of TARDIS….we all know she’s bigger on the inside.
I can buy the Impala as a Tardis, but the time when Sam drove to Texas definitely involved portals in my view. And during most of season 7 when they benched the Impala. And we don’t know about how fast Soulless!Sam traveled before he met up with Dean in season 6. So I’m going with portals whenever the Impala is unavailable.
Well, at least the writers have always been consistent in their portrayal of the Impala being able to travel at ridiculously fast speeds. 😆 They’ve been doing it since S1 when Dean had to make it to the Airport to stop the aeroplane crashes caused by a Demon and he managed to do the drive in a much shorter time than it should have taken. Plus, for some inexplicable reason, Dean can drive faster on side roads than a normal person can drive on a motorway – no idea how he does it but it’s obviously a rare talent 8)
I thought it was due to a flux capacitor
Magic hair. That does a lot for me. I mean, that [i]explains [/i] a lot for me. 😀
You are so right about it being far too easy to get in and out of Hell. I felt the same way. But because of the pacing of the episode I decided to overlook it. There was a lot crunched into 42 minutes. And since Sam was in Purgatory and Hell for 24 hours combined I decided to assume that a lot more happened that we just didn’t see. I guess I just feel pretty glass-half-full about this episode! Ha!
Wow. Expectation is a bitch. I enjoyed this episode quite alot. there are new questions, i expected nothing less. I too have “ideas” about the unanswered questions from the series, but I allow my imagination to fill in the blanks – that’s the medium. I also Never believe anything that is said, therefore it is open to other interpretations.
Yes, Dean said hell felt like 40 years instead of 4 months. Doesn’t mean it was, and even if it was, it could mean that Alistair’s torture hell was but not necessarily everything else. Time is fluid, perhaps true in all lands?
Just because they didn’t show Sam trudging thru hell and purgatory (and it certainly took longer for he and Bobby to get out – so it must have been longer than shown to get to him). I have to imagine that his passage was worse than shown – I can do that.
The problem I have with wanting every question answered is that I have already imagined it in my mind. I know Adam is in Heaven and Sam was alone in hell with 2 pissed of arc-angels. But, if one day the writers come up with another answer – will in ruin what I have imagined? No, it will just change it. I would like our Show to have perceived those dangling plot lines as I have, but it is not necessary to me.
Now that I think about it, back doors into purgatory and hell is a bit computer-ish. There’s been alot of that programming – computer talk this season. hhmmmmm…
I don’t know who Crowley really is or if he is really in Kevin head. I like not knowing – i like being surprised. With this show I have almost never guessed or imagined correctly and I don’t mind. It was a fast 40 minutes and mostly good. Some silly. Good send off to Benny – his time had come. Got to see Bobby again. Great Reaper (who did say they could appear as anything). Naomi was chilling. I enjoyed it.
TurtleDove
“Yes, Dean said hell felt like 40 years instead of 4 months. Doesn’t mean it was, and even if it was, it could mean that Alistair’s torture hell was but not necessarily everything else. Time is fluid, perhaps true in all lands? “
I remember it differently. I think what he said is time is different in hell than it is on earth. I may be wrong but I think is was Dean who gave the 40 year number initially.
Yes, Dean said 40 and Alistaire later confirmed that. But, it could still be interpreted as Dean’s hell (and John’s) was what they made it – that time was different – not just longer. So, in different areas of hell, time could be different from others. We tend to think linear (and I’m not saying our show thinks otherwise) but it could be chaos – as far as time goes.
Just as Alistaire also said Dean broke the first Seal, and Castiel later confirmed. But the rest of the Seals didn’t start breaking until after he was pulled from Hell. I like to imagine Dean (being rescued) was the first Seal and since angels and demons are liars, who’s to say I’m wrong?
I do like how they have had perception issues all this season. Maybe there’s something to it.
The time thing is one of the few things that can be more easily “explained” IMO. Because we don’t know how long Sam was actually in Hell. And Purgatory seems to move at the same rate of time that we do.
Beside time is relative. I don’t mean that in the subjective sense, but rather the scientific sense. That the way time is calculated differs depending on where you actually are, in a way. If you are on something approaching the speed of light time will actually slow down relativity to the things you are pass. The longer you travel and the faster you go the greater the difference. So them messing with time when different dimensions are involved that have different time calculations, leaves a lot or room for play.
That being said, I think it would have been much more effective, if they could have established that Sam was having trouble Bobby and DID spend a lot more time in Hell than what was shown on screen and it wouldn’t have effected the timeline on the surface. But on the plus side I don’t think we know for sure he DIDN’T spend more time down there.
I enjoy the episode! I guess when I watch SPN, I get sucked into it, like being in a roller coaster… while in the ride, I just enjoy it, no time to think if the thing will break or something else. Unless is a bad actor or something that break my concentration, like Sam’s flashbacks, for example.
I know that some writers don’t do their homework, like the one who wrote Good Bye Strangers, (sorry, can’t remember), everybody is different like in any other profession but, the reality of this is, TV, books, movies, etc. are for our imagination to fly, and SPN is the one tv show that does it for me.
About the messing out the Heaven, Hell and Purgatory arcs being crushed, I thought it is like any thing in life. There is a right way, the regular way and always the bad way and sometimes… the fishy way that not everybody knows and sometimes even the top people doesn’t know.
I liked the send off of Benny, he could come back or not. Bobby, could’ve been better a surprise for us, but I guess they have to release it for the ratings, and know Cass can bring him back, someday. Sam in Purgatory so he can experience it too, like his brother. Sam and Benny, now he understand. And of course, I enjoy Jensen’s acting, specially when he really transmit his concern for his little brother to us.
That is why I like this show, leaves a lot to our imaginations, leaves a lot for controversy about the arcs and specially, it leaves everybody wanting more.
I haven’t read any of the comments and I’m not going to because, IMO, there is no reason to even try to speculate when in one episode the show’s entire seven season’s worth of canon, mythology, and major storylines are wiped away.
I came away from this episode convinced that the only reason the show is continuing to make new episodes is for syndication purposes and, as such, anything goes if the writers think it is a “cool” idea.
I’ll give only one example, which was the basic premise this episode was built on. The show has spent years setting up rules for demons, angels, and reapers, and the number one rule is that they are not corporeal. Angels and demons have to have vessels to be seen by humans. Reapers are incorporeal and can only be seen by the dead or the dying. Now reapers can stand on street corners and eat pizza and if they are killed, there their body lies for all to be seen, wound and blood included.
As a viewer, I was completely disgusted with this poor effort.
I liked this episode a lot, but I think it really needed to be a two-parter. Maybe it was originally designed that way but got smooshed into a single episode.
I liked how Hell is a mirror of Heaven. Everyone has their own. For that girl, she’s been waiting forever to see a certain someone again. I’ve been there. That IS hell! Bobby waits for a Winchester to rescue him and is disappointed 100 times a day. Bobby’s hell is to be disappointed by Winchesters. When Dean was in Hell, his hell was to be tortured until he broke, because John never broke, and not living up to John’s example is his version of hell. I think it all works.
I don’t have a problem with the ease that Bobby and Sam found the portal. I got the impression that the portal finds the mortal and not the other way around. Dean and company had been in Purgatory long enough to become known by the regular residents, so they were targets. It follows that they would have had a more difficult time. Sam and Bobby were there just hours and hadn’t been discovered yet.
I laughed when Ajay told Sam to take his hand. The eewww look that Sam had (or was it Jared?) was priceless, and after they made the crossing, Sam/Jared dropped that hand pretty quick.
I also don’t have a problem with Benny going to rescue Sam. Benny really wanted to get back to Purgatory anyway. This was really a relief for him.
I just wish it had been two episodes. I wanted to see how Sam and Bobby would swim upstream to get back through the gateway. That must have been tough.
There are a few threads left hanging. Bobby and Benny’s futures, for example. And the status and whereabouts of Kevin.
But what about Ajay? He made the boys promise to return him a favor, and now he’s dead? That looks like a Chekov’s gun to me. Can you even kill a reaper? Were they ever alive?
I laughed when Ajay told Sam to take his hand. The eewww look that Sam had (or was it Jared?) was priceless, and after they made the crossing, Sam/Jared dropped that hand pretty quick.
😆
Had not thought about Sam having issues with going BACK into Hell. Good point, sinderella6 🙂
Hey Ardeopina 🙂 Yay! no preview info – thank you!
I was also rather underwhelmed by the episode – tho, as you and others point out, the emotional bits worked (kudos to the Js and Ty). Ross-Leming and Buckner, however, appear to be oblivious to the need for continuity and more often than not write characters OOC, stories that are more hole than plot and in the well-worn traditions of bulls in china shops, blithely SMASH the integrity of previous episodes and even seasons to pieces. Do. Not. Like.
(Where the freakin’ hell is Jeremy Carver?)
• Agree with what you and so many of the commenters above have said about the ridiculous ease with which Sam went to ‘Hell and Back Again’ (The AntiHobbit). It took Dean (with Benny and Castiel’s help) a YEAR to make his way out, and Sam pops in and out of BOTH Hell AND Purgatory and back in time for tea?
• Demon overhearing the reaper – yup, what a strange use of screen time that could have been taken care of with a line from Crowley. Was it an editing error?
• Agree on graffiti FX. Epic!
• I have to say I liked the pie line, but thought it was again OOC that Dean was so dismissive of Kevin’s fear of Crowley AND/OR their not angel-proofing Kevin’ hideout AND/OR his not taking Kevin to the Batcave.
• Agree on Sam’s watch plot point. Another really odd use of screen time for me. Why would he take it off when he has no idea how far he will have to go to find Bobby? How could he estimate time without it? And Hell time is different than earth, isn’t it? Another writing or possibly editing issue?
• I liked the idea that Crowley and the angels mess about with whether a soul goes up or down. Rang true.
• But, and I know I am in the minority here, I am really not a fan of … Crowley. There. I said it.
• “My half has the acknowledgments and the bit about the author.†I second your HA!
• Yup, leaving a gateway between Hell and Purgatory open. Brilliant move. Plus Crowley was looking for Purgatory all of Season 6, if I recall correctly. He seriously didn’t find this gateway, but he can find Dean in Maine?
• LOVE Benny 🙂 Hope he comes back, tho I liked that he went back to Purgatory.
Oh and Enchanting Tim I love your point about Kevin being vegan! Although, I guess they could spin it by saying Kevin lied to the Leviathans? Plus your quote ‘Sam was obviously born in a barn’ actually made me LOL 😉
Question: was the weapon Sam picked up from the ground at Purgatory near the portal and threw to Benny, Dean’s old weapon? If so, it feels very satisfyingly like we’ve come full circle.
*Sigh* Another hiatus? Damnation. Ah well. More time to speculate 😉
Hi, magichappening
Is this the same writer who wrote the girl/dog episode? I personally never look at the writer’s name before seeing the episode because I want to have unbiased judgment to the episode. But I remember that Alice said that this writer is kinda meh?
I hate it if writer like this get to write a meaty part of the mytharc. They should just write filler episodes. The showrunner should know the weakness and the strength of his team.
About the weapon, no, it was the weapon of the monster that charged at Sam the first time he land unto (I said unto) Purgatory. Not Dean’s weapon.
First time I was thinking, goodie! now Sam has the same weapon as Dean but then he gave it to Benny. Oh, well.
Episode was meh. Loved some parts (Benny, Bobby), others like the canon retcons left me scratching my head.
While I enjoy seeing all these examples of how much Dean loves Sam, I really hope at some point the show turns things around and focuses on Sam’s love for Dean. Dean’s always put Sam first, no matter who else he calls “brother.” Haven’t always felt that from Sam, especially this season. And if the writers want the audience to buy into the brotherly bond, it can’t always just be about Dean taking care of Sam.
Just had a thought: maybe reapers can waltz right in and out because it’s their job to do so. They are the ones that ferry the souls into Heaven, Hell, or wherever, so it would make sense that they could get in and out easier. The only other creatures I can think of that do this within canon are the Hellhounds.
Demons and angels on the other hand are inhabitants (or guardians, I guess in the angels’ case) of their realms, and shouldn’t actually be pulling people out, so that could be why a lot of angels died getting Dean out and why Meg implied that while it’s possible, it’s also really difficult to for a demon to get out of Hell once they’re in.
[quote]Just had a thought: maybe reapers can waltz right in and out because it’s their job to do so. They are the ones that ferry the souls into Heaven, Hell, or wherever, so it would make sense that they could get in and out easier. The only other creatures I can think of that do this within canon are the Hellhounds.
Demons and angels on the other hand are inhabitants (or guardians, I guess in the angels’ case) of their realms, and shouldn’t actually be pulling people out, so that could be why a lot of angels died getting Dean out and why Meg implied that while it’s possible, it’s also really difficult to for a demon to get out of Hell once they’re in.[/quote]
I’ll buy the Reapers being able to access all realms, because it’s their job to ferry souls etc, that makes sense within previous canon for the show. And your explanation for the inhabitants of the various realms being bound by the rules of those realms makes sense too.
I’m not keen on the additional elements for the Reaper we had this week i.e. he drives a taxi, he’s corporeal and visible to the non-dying, he eats pizza, he’s fine with the idea of working against Death (his very strict and keen on the rules Master) and is corruptible by Crowley. Those elements of the Reaper didn’t make sense to me.
Yeah, the rest of it I’m not so sure about either. Didn’t they say he was like a rogue Reaper or something? Maybe the rules are supposed to be different for them, though I’ve got no clue how Death would let his Reapers turn rogue in the first place. Unless he’s left the building, too.
Other than that, I got nothing.
For now.
Well, at least his boss Death can make himself visible and also likes pizza 🙂
Or, Death and the Reaper make themselfs visible (corporeal) in order to enjoy pizza! 😀 .
[quote]Or, Death and the Reaper make themselfs visible (corporeal) in order to enjoy pizza! 😀 .[/quote]
😆 😆
Death being a ‘foodie’ is a strange character trait but I can believe that he eats because he’s a Horseman and that means he’s a big player who has lots of presence and history and is complicated. Somehow, I always got the impression that the Reapers who worked for Death were incorporeal and didn’t fully exist enough to want or need food.
Have you got any canon info that can make me believe a Reaper driving a Taxi? *lays down the gauntlet* 😉
Not one! Can only think that it was his ‘corner’, like where he can be found for the transactions. 😉
About the reaper being corporeal- I’ve been thinking….do we really know for a fact Ajay WAS visible to any one else other than Sam and Dean (and of course Crowley and the demon informant)? He didn’t react with any one else. No one else spoke to him or hailed his taxi. I noticed that it was raining when Sam and Dean pulled up in the Impala but not raining on them when they were talking to him outside his cab.
Reading all these comments about changes in past canon makes me think about how easy it would’ve been to address it in a couple of throw away lines.
Something like:
Dean: You know, Sam, it would’ve been nice to know about these rogue reapers and the backdoor to hell stuff before.
Sam: It wasn’t like this when you were in Hell, Dean. Believe me, I tried.
Throw in a bitchface, and I’d have been happy. 😉
st50, this wouldn’t be my first choice. But I agree that would have helped a lot. But they do often put explanations like this in other episodes, so hopefully that will be the case here.
Not so much complaints, just comments:
1) If demons can’t tell until they reach their destination that there is a devils trap then it seems like there is a full time pest control job there for one, maybe two hunters to go around randomly setting traps for demons at crossroads. It wouldn’t kill them all but it would make demons wary of coming when people called. That would mess with Crowley’s soul collection wouldn’t it?
2) Why does a Reaper need a day job? I wonder is it that reapers aren’t aware of humans while they are non-corporeal unless the human is one they are due to reap? In that case if a reaper wanted to be contactable by humans he would have to have a body so that not only could they see him but so that he can know they are looking for him. Also, as someone said earlier – pizza!
3) Dean is a total gossip! he told Sam Bobby’s secret that Bobby said not to tell anyone 😀
4) I don’t really see the issue with the time. Maybe I am missing something. Purgatory time is one to one, it took 24 hours in total to walk to hell, find Bobby and get back to where Ajay should have been. After that there was no time limit, so Dean could have taken a week to get to Maine and hang out in the woods while Sam, Bobby and Benny went the long way round…
[quote]Not so much complaints, just comments:
1) If demons can’t tell until they reach their destination that there is a devils trap then it seems like there is a full time pest control job there for one, maybe two hunters to go around randomly setting traps for demons at crossroads. It wouldn’t kill them all but it would make demons wary of coming when people called. That would mess with Crowley’s soul collection wouldn’t it?
2) Why does a Reaper need a day job? I wonder is it that reapers aren’t aware of humans while they are non-corporeal unless the human is one they are due to reap? In that case if a reaper wanted to be contactable by humans he would have to have a body so that not only could they see him but so that he can know they are looking for him. Also, as someone said earlier – pizza!
3) Dean is a total gossip! he told Sam Bobby’s secret that Bobby said not to tell anyone 😀
4) I don’t really see the issue with the time. Maybe I am missing something. Purgatory time is one to one, it took 24 hours in total to walk to hell, find Bobby and get back to where Ajay should have been. After that there was no time limit, so Dean could have taken a week to get to Maine and hang out in the woods while Sam, Bobby and Benny went the long way round…[/quote]
[b]eilf[/b], I love the wee practical head on ya 😆 Definitely, someone needs to be going around crossroads and sticking devil’s traps under them, or going around and making sure that certain places have banishing sigils might come in useful too.
The only issue I had with the time was in relation to Hell vs Earth. Canon has established that 1 month in Hell = 10 years on Earth (Dean, John, and Sam have all experienced this 1:10 rate of time in Hell) so I can’t understand why the writers had Bobby say that he only experienced 1:1 time while in Hell. And unless there’s a canon explanation for it, I’m not accepting fanwank explanations 😮 😮 In my opinion, this season has needed too much fanwank explaining to make up for the detail that’s lacking in the episodes :sigh:
As for Purgatory, I could get my head around it running on the same time rate as Earth, thus Dean spent a year in Purgatory rather than 10 years or thereabouts. It makes sense, I think Dean is a BAMF but I can’t see even him surviving 10 years of constant attack and battle in Purgatory 🙂
Why thank you!
I missed the bit about what Bobby said? No transcript up yet…
And yes at this stage it is really too difficult to guess or predict anything, the canon has gotten too confusing.
Do you want to hear my theory about how you spray something sticky on the floor before you make a salt ring so it can’t be blown away?
[quote]Do you want to hear my theory about how you spray something sticky on the floor before you make a salt ring so it can’t be blown away?[/quote]
That is clever! Loved it! 😀
[quote]Why thank you!
I missed the bit about what Bobby said? No transcript up yet…
And yes at this stage it is really too difficult to guess or predict anything, the canon has gotten too confusing.
Do you want to hear my theory about how you spray something sticky on the floor before you make a salt ring so it can’t be blown away?[/quote]
Nice theory, that would be particularly handy when fighting ghosts in a location where you can’t leave any evidence behind of your presence 😆
I recently read two fanfics that also had clever ideas for salt lines:
– a thin tube full of salt, inserted under the floorboards or inserted in the skirting boards or under windows. (This was a fic in which the Winchesters decided to settle down, so Dean was renovating a house to be monster-proof)
– a line of salt covered with electrical tape to keep it in place (this one was used by Sam in a rented flat where he didn’t want to keep re-doing salt lines on a daily basis)
I’m always amazed by the practical and innovative ideas that this fandom comes up with when it comes to fine-tuning the monster-fighting tools available to the Winchesters 😀 Although, we saw a little of that kind of thinking last week when Krissy & Co came up with some Vampire-fighting tweaks so it means the writers must be struck with inspiration from time to time too. Of course, you can’t beat classics like Dean and John’s salt-filled shotgun shells 8)
[quote][quote]Not so much complaints, just comments:
… so I can’t understand why the writers had Bobby say that he only experienced 1:1 time while in Hell. And unless there’s a canon explanation for it, I’m not accepting fanwank explanations [/quote]
Uh… I popped in the tape and played all the Sam?bobby stuff. Bobby’s saying goodbye now. When did Bobby say his time in Hell was 1:1 with Sam/Dean time? The only reference to a period of time was Bobby half questioning, “Dean spent a year in this place [Purgatory]?” From the context, Sam and Bobby had been conveseing, offscreen and Sam had already told Bobby this. Bobby was merely confirming Dean spent a year in Purgatory. I didn’t catch Bobby ever commenting how long he’d been in Hell.
Maybe I missed it? {shrug}
[quote][quote][quote]Not so much complaints, just comments:
… so I can’t understand why the writers had Bobby say that he only experienced 1:1 time while in Hell. And unless there’s a canon explanation for it, I’m not accepting fanwank explanations [/quote]
Uh… I popped in the tape and played all the Sam?bobby stuff. Bobby’s saying goodbye now. When did Bobby say his time in Hell was 1:1 with Sam/Dean time? The only reference to a period of time was Bobby half questioning, “Dean spent a year in this place [Purgatory]?” From the context, Sam and Bobby had been conveseing, offscreen and Sam had already told Bobby this. Bobby was merely confirming Dean spent a year in Purgatory. I didn’t catch Bobby ever commenting how long he’d been in Hell.
Maybe I missed it? {shrug}[/quote]
Hi [b]racestaffer[/b], for me, the Bobby comment you noted above, in combination with Bobby commenting that Sam had really gone off the rails in the last year, gave me the very strong impression that Bobby’s experience of Hell was not the 1:10 rate of temporal progression that the Winchesters experienced in previous seasons. Also, Bobby’s general demeanour and behaviour did not strike me as that of a man who had been in Hell for 180+ years. I’m not saying that Bobby’s not kick-ass, determined, and stubborn as feck but I don’t think he would have been as relatively chilled in his demeanour if he had spent more than 18 months in Hell.
so i was just thinking. so far in the last two out of three episodes sam’s year has been brought up by both meg and bobby. yes i know, it’s about time.
both meg and bobby, upon hearing sam’s story, both seemed quite surprised that he didn’t look/he stopped hunting. they seemed to agree oddly enough that this was ooc for sam’s character, much like the entire fandom. 😆 bobby went as far as telling sam that he was riding off the rails in his absence.
seem to me that the writers are pinpointing the fact that sam’s behavior is indeed ooc through meg and bobby. coincidentally enough, both characters are dead…which leads me to wonder…..
what if the point of bobby and meg pointing out to sam that his behaviour was quite odd was so that sam himself realizes it. the next episode, according to the promo, has sam in a coma like state right?
so let’s say sam did look for dean but was getting dangerously close to finding out info about the angel tablet….so before sam can get to far naomi does a mindscrew on him…that’s when he hits the dog, because he was with naomi one second, then focused on the road the next. amelia still could be one of naomi’s ….
point is that now on a conscious level sam believes his brother dead….but on a deep subconscious level he’s not sure..he’s still searching.
so what if in a comatose state, sam is able to see his unconscious. what if he begins to realize on a conscious level that something isn’t right…but is still not sure, as they might reveal something more in another eppy.
just throwing it out there.
[quote]
so let’s say sam did look for dean but was getting dangerously close to finding out info about the angel tablet….so before sam can get to far naomi does a mindscrew on him…that’s when he hits the dog, because he was with naomi one second, then focused on the road the next. amelia still could be one of naomi’s ….
point is that now on a conscious level sam believes his brother dead….but on a deep subconscious level he’s not sure..he’s still searching.
so what if in a comatose state, sam is able to see his unconscious. what if he begins to realize on a conscious level that something isn’t right…but is still not sure, as they might reveal something more in another eppy.
just throwing it out there.[/quote]
I like your theory nappi815. 😀 It could happen, yes.
From past experience Sam is the one who is able to compartmentalizing things in his head. (Did I say it right?) That’s why it’s easy for him to hallucinate Lucifer. His mind’s way of coping through the trauma. Naomi could already instill something in Sam’s mind too.
What irk me is that Sam never get to voice his opinion on the matter and his answer is unsatisfactory. Three characters point out his OOC behavior. If that’s just a blow to Sam’s character just to satisfy the fans, well, I can’t accept it.
I want answers not repeated blow in the head. That’s not how to solve problems.
Just hurling accusation Sam’s way doesn’t help me understand the character better.
kaz,
that’s the thing. the one thing that this fandom has been clamoring about this season is that sam not making the attempt to look for dean is positively ridiculous…..eventually giving up makes more sense, but the initial not looking that’s just not sam winchester.
it’s been basically ignored for most of the season, or has it? like i said in many posts, sam has been written in an ambiguous way this season….nothing has been direct concerning sam ….he’s been written in such a manner that sam can literally go either way… i believe that to be deliberate.
now, not only has meg pointed out sam’s ooc behavior, but bobby has as well. bobby being more blunt by actually telling sam he’s been riding off the rails.
i don’t think meg and bobby pointing out to sam how odd his behavior seems to them is meant to yet be another blow against him…on the contrary, i think the fact that meg, a demon, and bobby, a human who is sam’s family, these two extremely opposite individuals {who happen to know sam pretty well, one because he helped raise him and the other who lived inside him for a week} raised the question is so that sam would acknowledge that something wasn’t right.
if, as i believe, sam was messed with, then on a deep subconscious level he would know this even though his conscious mind doesn’t recall. if you looked at sam after bobby brought up looking for dean and sam used the there was an agreement excuse, sam’s face looked off. i got the impression that sam didn’t even believe what he was saying…he looked troubled, like he was hiding something but didn’t know what he was hiding. i rewound that scene a couple of times, and that’s the same impression i got from sam….
if there actually is more to the story like carver indicated when he said, there’s more to come, then it would make sense that in the few episodes before the finale, sam’s time would be revisited.
like i stated, both meg and bobby are conveniently dead, so it seems that perhaps they were more of that piece of steak stuck in between sam’s teeth….what they said is supposed to gnaw at him until he works to get that steak out himself…
just my take on it. 😉
I was thinking the same thing when 8.01 was aired.
Jared’s acting is good, I believe but everything that he did in S8 has been OOC and weird even on the acting level.
Even Dean felt the same thing about Sam’s odd behavior. I know that both J2 are very compatible in acting and they gives off of each others act. Jensen’s acting is a reaction towards Jared’s act. He kinds of a method actor so he lives in Dean’s skin literally when he’s acting. Dean’s reacting to Sam’s odd behavior due to Jared’s odd behavior in executing Sam’s act. Am I making sense? Please tell me if I somehow speak mumble.
I will re lights the points that I’ve relighted it during the discussion of 8.01.
– Sam looks kinda blank when Dean confronted him about why he didn’t try to look for him. In quotes, Dean said “You did try to look for me. Did you, Sam?” (I maybe misquoted, sorry) But Dean only demanded that Sam AT LEAST TRY. It’s okay if Sam DID TRY but then failed, he’d understand. Dean wouldn’t want Sam to rescue him from hell if Sam was turning evil to accomplish that. Hell he wouldn’t want Sam to die just to bring him back. If it cost Sam’s life then it’s a no go. But he would appreciate the effort.
– When Sam was confronted about Kevin he also acted awkward. I learn that when people turning/glancing to their left side when telling something then there’s a good chance that their lying. It’s human’s basic tells. I don’t know if Jared executed this or not but Sam clearly had lot’s of Left side tells during that episode.
– When Kevin told them about the demon’s tablet first thing that Sam did was asking, “Where is it?” When Kevin said it’s save he insisted, “Save where?” rather forcefully. It’s odd that the first thing that he was worried about was the tablet and not Kevin’s safety.
– Sam’s empathy when he was giving Kevin the pep talk fell kind of flat. He used to be able to make people spill with using the power of his puppy dog eyes. But I didn’t feel his empathy when he was talking to Kevin at the time.
– He knows that Kevin will not living a normal life again if he’s still on Crowley’s bucket list. I can’t believe Sam who wants to live normal so badly didn’t feel empathy or even feel the urge to help Kevin close the gate’s of Hell and stop Crowley. Dean said, Kevin’s a target now, a time bomb and he won’t be safe if they didn’t help him because Crowley will find him sooner or later and Sam said, “He managed to stay safe all this time.”
Really?? This is OUR SAM?? He wants to leave Kevin in the wind knowing that his ass is tagged by the King of Hell?
– The first thing that Sam ASKED when Dean told him about Purgatory is “Was Cas there?”. I need to point out it happened in the same scene. He should be more concerned of Dean’s well being instead of worrying where was Cas. The regular Sam would ask, “Oh my God Dean are you okay? How did you get out? God, Dean are you hurt?”
He should be worried of Dean’s condition, mentally and physically but no, he’s more worried of Cas’ whereabout. So, what’s with that?
– Samandriel’s first question to Dean was about Cas’ whereabout. Both angel Samandriel and Sam asked the same thing. Both Samandriel and Sam’s concern was on the Tablet instead of the Prophet.
These points has not been answered as of yet. It’ll become a glaring plot hole if the writers didn’t plan on it beforehand. Come on, do these writers really think we’re fans that stupid that we overlook these?
kaz,
you make valid points…and i totally agree. all i know is that i’ve had the same feeling this entire season that i had during the first 7 episodes of s6 before we found out sam was souless.
something is wrong with sam…that much is pretty obvious. i have no doubt something will be revealed…
he’s been written off since eppy one. and we the fans have noticed…..now in the last two out of three eps, the writers have made sure that other’s have noticed too….
i don’t they’re think meg and bobby talking about and more importantly confused about sam’s year was an attack on sam. i think it was brought up so near to the end, because as i’ve felt in my heart all along, it’s at the end where something will be revealed….i still believe that.
now i don’t know what that’ll be…
if sam is really sam at all? you need permission from an angel to be used as a vessel right? what if for some reason, sam agreed to being a vessel…what if him agreeing to being a vessel meant dean would get out of purgatory?
if sam was messed with by naomi?
if sam broke and he’s been in a coma like state this whole time?
i have no idea….but i know it’s something….
I think after Crowley take over HELL, it became a kind of boring place.
I mean his idea to torture souls is a never ending queue line? I know it usually bore people to death but it’s not that scary anymore. Crowley said that most souls in Hell is already masochist. They love torture even and he wants to change that.
I like Azazel’s hell better. I mean it’s hell. If Dean said Heaven is boring (alluding to Pamela’s Heaven) then why would Hell be the same rendition of Heaven with different taste but the same recipe? They should be opposites, right?
No one rule the order anymore with God’s gone. Everyone just do whatever they want.
Dante described Hell as having many levels. Each part of Hell has different characteristics. Perhaps since Bobby had some virtuous work, it was harder for Crowley to put him on a rack like Azazel did with Dean. And the cage, seems like a very exclusive club based on blood lines. Crowley has lost his puppies in the first trial and he seems so busy chasing the tablets, that he has neglected his decorating skills and even left Bobby’s cell unlocked. Heaven seems to be quite sterile judging from Naomi’s office, but the angels that are left, seem to not have found any order yet. How high up is Naomi on the ladder and is he an independent contractor or working on behalf of higher ups as she is quite offended at being called a bureaucrat. Writers choose words carefully and her offense is noted. Does the angel tablet reveal order?
Have you guys ever think that if it’s that easy to go to Purgatory by looking for a rough reaper then Sam with that big brain of his, descendant of MOL, Hunter extraordinary, Standford boy, will be able to figure out where Dean was and break him out?
Come on writers, I can smell you flounder even from here.
Here’s what Sam could do (If only the writers were willing to write it).
– As he is curious of where Dean was he interrogates Demons. Asks psychics and everyone with abilities.
– Remembering what the Alpha Vamp said about where monster go when they die, he can easily deducts that Dick went to Purgatory. Could Dean be there too?
– A Winchester never gives up, right? So, why not scouting Purgatory and find out? Just for 24 hours. Making sure that Dean is really there or not.
– He will be led to Ajay and Ajay will lead him to Purgatory. Some monster there, if he torture them well, will keel over and tell him about a human trapped in there, a hunter, Dean.
– There, that’s not so hard right?
Perhaps, the point of why they made three characters (Dean, Meg, Bobby) accusing him of not looking for Dean after being shown that going to Purgatory and Hell is not as hard as it seems if only you want to look.
It’s as if they say, “Hey Sam, going to Purgatory and Hell is not as hard as you think it was. See, if only you want to look, you’ll find Dean. So, perhaps you’ll re think again of your lame excuse about having no road map, no help, no family to ask for help. Well, though!!! Since when you went hunting on less than that? You suck Sam Winchester!”
See, that’s how the tone of these accusations and the way they are showing easy way to access this place, speaks to me.
I have problems with this episode, but I only go to point out that, in my opinion, Dean is not pushing Kevin.
First, one could think that he learn from his previous mistake, but no… he had to hide the tablet, again, because it was so good the first time…
Second, Dean doesn’t give him falses hopes, in contrast to Sam, that is not pushing him. The boy have a damm bullseye on his back, for now although they closed the gates of hell there would be hundreds of demons wanting revenge. Nothing would be able happen…
I don’t know what happened at the end of the episode, and I don’t really like to speculate without more probes, but Kevin wasn’t eating, sleeping or going out enough… if he doesn’t react, he will die. Dean’s methods are horrible, but at least he is trying to help him.
There was so much packed into this episode that it could have been a 2 part episode, but then there would have been complaints about the pacing. In a 43 minute episode much was covered such as Sam being chastised about not looking for Dean, which was finally voiced. Bobby always negotiated btwn the boys. There was a resolution about Benny, who now eats veggies and cannot fit in. Sam finally gets Dean’s Purgatory experience and bond with Benny. Fandom does want Bobby “saved”, Crowley has become more badass than ever and the two scenes with Ackles, one with Benny, one with the hug for Sam. In a two parter, Sam might have had an opportunity to recall his time in the cage with flashbacks. It is clear to me that Hell has many sections, as Dante portrayed it, so the endless waiting line, the cells, the cage all different levels. The rogue reaper and how humans can see him, as well as how he dies, not well done. The special effect graffiti wall was v.good but In 43 minutes, you can’t cover everything. Dean’s suck it up comment to Kevin reflects his own view and he knows Kevin is losing it so this part did not ring true since Dean is usually good with kids. The sigels on the windows were constantly being pointed out by Kevin and since Dean doesn’t consider the possibility that Crowley has Kevin, the windows must be in tact. Jared’s reaction as an actor to Bobby’s dialogue is enough for me to know that Sam gets he was wrong-no apology needed. Purgatory is Hell adjacent etc-maybe the info was discovered in the MOL cave. Sam’s watch was a marker to the exit since the hallways all look alike in Hell. Naomi-she’s a manipulater=angel. For another post, another time. Mostly enjoyable.
kaz,
you make valid points…and i totally agree. all i know is that i’ve had the same feeling this entire season that i had during the first 7 episodes of s6 before we found out sam was souless.
something is wrong with sam…that much is pretty obvious. i have no doubt something will be revealed…
he’s been written off since eppy one. and we the fans have noticed…..now in the last two out of three eps, the writers have made sure that other’s have noticed too….
like i said, i don’t think meg and bobby talking about and more importantly both being confused about sam’s year was an attack on sam. i think it was brought up so near to the end, because as i’ve felt in my heart all along, it’s at the end where something will be revealed….i still believe that. i still think it’s possible that sam’s mind has been messed with and the point of meg and bobby was to make sam question himself. maybe they were meant to crack the mental foundation built in sam’s mind so that he starts to remember the truth…..
now i don’t know what is going to be revealed
if sam is really sam at all? you need permission from an angel to be used as a vessel right? what if for some reason, sam agreed to being a vessel…what if him agreeing to being a vessel meant dean would get out of purgatory?
if sam was messed with by naomi?
if sam broke and he’s been in a coma like state this whole time?
i have no idea….but i know it’s something….
[quote]kaz,
you make valid points…and i totally agree. all i know is that i’ve had the same feeling this entire season that i had during the first 7 episodes of s6 before we found out sam was souless.
something is wrong with sam…that much is pretty obvious. i have no doubt something will be revealed…
he’s been written off since eppy one. and we the fans have noticed…..now in the last two out of three eps, the writers have made sure that other’s have noticed too….
like i said, i don’t think meg and bobby talking about and more importantly both being confused about sam’s year was an attack on sam. i think it was brought up so near to the end, because as i’ve felt in my heart all along, it’s at the end where something will be revealed….i still believe that. i still think it’s possible that sam’s mind has been messed with and the point of meg and bobby was to make sam question himself. maybe they were meant to crack the mental foundation built in sam’s mind so that he starts to remember the truth…..
now i don’t know what is going to be revealed
if sam is really sam at all? you need permission from an angel to be used as a vessel right? what if for some reason, sam agreed to being a vessel…what if him agreeing to being a vessel meant dean would get out of purgatory?
if sam was messed with by naomi?
if sam broke and he’s been in a coma like state this whole time?
i have no idea….but i know it’s something….[/quote]
Sure hope they don’t got that with the “it was all a dream” crap; that would be very disappointing. While I agree that Sam wasn’t quite himself in the first half of the season, I interpreted his behavior as having less to do with supernatural forces, and more to do with that, in his missing year, at some point he just snapped and had had enough. Not saying he had a mental breakdown, although that’s a possibility. He did at times seem to be panicky/on edge/almost PTSD.
While Sam was happy Dean was back, that meant he was back in the life as a hunter; this created conflict for Sam; not wanting to leave his brother alone “out there”, and wanting a safe/normal life. Given the way Sam felt Dean was “kicking him since he got back” (Southern Comfort), there might have been a little resentment, and definitely a lot of anger that culminated in Citizen Fang/Torn and Frayed.
I did think that Amelia’s husband magically showing up alive, around the time that Dean got of purgatory, did smack of angelic intervention, probably Naomi. She would have a lot to gain by having the Winchesters back in action again, going after the demon tablet and closing the gates of hell.
[quote][quote]kaz,
you make valid points…and i totally agree. all i know is that i’ve had the same feeling this entire season that i had during the first 7 episodes of s6 before we found out sam was souless.
something is wrong with sam…that much is pretty obvious. i have no doubt something will be revealed…
he’s been written off since eppy one. and we the fans have noticed…..now in the last two out of three eps, the writers have made sure that other’s have noticed too….
like i said, i don’t think meg and bobby talking about and more importantly both being confused about sam’s year was an attack on sam. i think it was brought up so near to the end, because as i’ve felt in my heart all along, it’s at the end where something will be revealed….i still believe that. i still think it’s possible that sam’s mind has been messed with and the point of meg and bobby was to make sam question himself. maybe they were meant to crack the mental foundation built in sam’s mind so that he starts to remember the truth…..
now i don’t know what is going to be revealed
if sam is really sam at all? you need permission from an angel to be used as a vessel right? what if for some reason, sam agreed to being a vessel…what if him agreeing to being a vessel meant dean would get out of purgatory?
if sam was messed with by naomi?
if sam broke and he’s been in a coma like state this whole time?
i have no idea….but i know it’s something….[/quote]
Sure hope they don’t got that with the “it was all a dream” crap; that would be very disappointing. While I agree that Sam wasn’t quite himself in the first half of the season, I interpreted his behavior as having less to do with supernatural forces, and more to do with that, in his missing year, at some point he just snapped and had had enough. Not saying he had a mental breakdown, although that’s a possibility. He did at times seem to be panicky/on edge/almost PTSD.
While Sam was happy Dean was back, that meant he was back in the life as a hunter; this created conflict for Sam; not wanting to leave his brother alone “out there”, and wanting a safe/normal life. Given the way Sam felt Dean was “kicking him since he got back” (Southern Comfort), there might have been a little resentment, and definitely a lot of anger that culminated in Citizen Fang/Torn and Frayed.
I did think that Amelia’s husband magically showing up alive, around the time that Dean got of purgatory, did smack of angelic intervention, probably Naomi. She would have a lot to gain by having the Winchesters back in action again, going after the demon tablet and closing the gates of hell.[/quote]
i think i agree with you and i find it totally plausible that sam gave up….but here’s the thing….
show made it a point in letting the audience know that it took sam two months before he even met amelia. so what was sam doing for two months?
now i can buy that he fixed the car…that is, after all what dean would want….but i’m not sure when he fixed the car….i think it’s possible that he fixed the car when he was busy being “normal”…he was after all a handyman.
i’m not buying his i was driving for two month story. sorry but with gas costing 4 bucks a gallon almost everywhere, i’m not buying the fact that sam was just driving around aimlessly….first off, he’d have to hustle pool or do credit card scams or find jobs just to pay for the gas…baby takes alot of gas….i don’t see sam in the frame of mind to be doing any of that….why spend two months just driving when he could’ve been looking for dean? makes no sense….
sam knows things he shouldn’t know. nobody knows how to do a reverse exorcism off the top of their head…hell think about it…sam and dean up until the end of s7 never heard of a reverse exorcism…they never knew it even existed…let alone knowing how to say one….sam would’ve had to learn a reverse exorcism exists and then he would’ve had to learn how to do one….and since he’s been busy being normal with amelia, i don’t see him sneaking off to the library to learn exorcisms for no apparent reason…the only time sam would’ve learned how to do a reverse exorcism would’ve had to be in those two months.
sam also knew the kid was hardwired to have the same curse as prometheus…the very fact that he used the same term that the angels used in regards to them being programmed…..made my spidey senses tingle.
besides the basic “sam switching answers” in regards to whether he knew dean was missing or dead”….the biggest reason i have for believing there’s something more going on here is sam’s constant silence while being berated by his brother. now once or twice i get it that sam would keep quiet. he might feel he deserved it. whether he didn’t or not…..but sam didn’t defend himself in any way shape or form for half a season….
if you were being accused of something that simply wasn’t the case, wouldn’t you defend yourself? at least at some point in some way? sam didn’t have the patience to deal with dean’s attitude about dying by the time the magnificent seven ended. sam broke in metamorphosis and told dean off about why he didn’t tell him about him and ruby right away…..sam has patience yes, but not that much patience. dean was on sam over and over and over, practically asking for a fight…..but dean got nothing…we got nothing…..if there wasn’t something to hide, then why not just tell dean to screw himself…he has no idea what it was like for him….just anything…..
sam’s silence is the biggest reason that i believe that something is up…
now add the fact that both meg and bobby just happen to bring up sam’s past year when nobody else talked about it for 17 episodes…..then we get two out of three eps that sam’s year is brought up and both meg and bobby question sam’s mental state…..meg was confused by sam “stopping” and bobby told sam he was off the rails….
while i think it’s very possible that sam imploded and ran, i don’t believe that it happened as quickly as we are being made to think it happened…..
if it’s a case where sam simply decided he couldn’t do it anymore and talked himself into believing his brother to be dead, then i think it happened two months after leaving that lab….i think sam did look and failed to find his brother….that was when he imploded…the running came after he hit the dog….
either that or naomi messed with him. or someone messed with him…and amelia….she’s not necessarily what she seems to be….
do you realize that the only person who ever saw amelia was sam……just saying…….
What if the trials are fake? Perhaps it’s all a setup to take possession of Sam for some reason?
Some minion of Lucifer’s out to get him ready to be the vessel again?
The trials are pretty bizarre really, they seem too easy (kill a hellhound, get out of hell, those things should be next to impossible), don’t follow canon rules and the bit that seems real is Sam being in pain after each spell….
It might be possible that Dean has been manipulated all season to corral Sam into doing the trials? Maybe he is Dean sometimes and sometimes not. Like Castiel. Maybe Sam is aware of it and so isn’t telling Dean everything (though in that case why would he agree to do the trials?)
😛 I don’t particularly like ANY of that theory, because it really does put us back to seasons past and I would prefer that S & D are doing everything of their own free will (just with better reasons than we have had so far) but it sort of fits a little? (if you turn you head sideways and squint)
eilf, at this point I’m hoping for the manipulations. It may not have been my first choice at the beginning of the season (although I’ll admit it really wouldn’t have bothered me much even then), but now it see it as the only way to make the season make sense.
nappi815… I totally agree with your take on Sam; he HAS been written ‘off’ all season long. Just one question though. Why hasn’t Dean noticed? Cas, Bobby and Meg have all noticed and said something about it, but not Dean. I wonder why?
Becasue [quote]nappi815… I totally agree with your take on Sam; he HAS been written ‘off’ all season long. Just one question though. Why hasn’t Dean noticed? Cas, Bobby and Meg have all noticed and said something about it, but not Dean. I wonder why?[/quote]
Becasue Dean truely doesn’t know Sam? Putting any bitterness about the season aside and pulling out Carvers “Perception.” I think it speaks to Deans perception of Sam. Dean will not accept anything that alters his perception of Sam that he has had from when they were kids. he has this one, rigid view of Sam that is linked very rigidly to his own self image. And in staying in that mode he doesn’t and can’t see who Sam really is…who he grew up to be.
I dont know maybe Dean actually has an idea of who Sam is on a pedastal…..but Sam is human and he has human foilables. he loves, he greives, feels and experiences loss and sometimes he looses himself. And he reacts to all of this. And all of this challenges Deans preception of who Sam is.
So in a way, Dean can’t allow himself to notice that Sam is ‘off’. because he would have to face that his perception of Sam may be wrong. Or that Sam is more then “little brother’. He’s a human being whos experiences affect him and other peoples experiences affect Him.
MAybe Deans perception is just that of certain Dean fans. That Dean loves Sam more then Sam loves him. But thats just perception…a perception based on Deans own issues and self image. Once Dean sets aside that perception …. Perception is like looking through a peep hole in a door. You see only a small part of the picture. But open the door and you see everything.
Dean needs to stop looking at Sam through the peephole and open the door. He needs to see all of Sam. The man and the Hunter.
I would say this goes for both boys but the simply fact is Dean is the primary POV in Supernatural. So even if Show showed Sams POV it would be seen through the lens of Deans POV and affected by Deans perception: Of Sam and Dean himself.
e, this post is long so i had to divide it into two parts…forgive me….
i’d like to answer your question with a simple, i think dean is being manipulated too…and he may very well be…but after watching torn and frayed last night, this is where my head ended up. first, my apologies for going off taxi driver. don’t know if that ‘s even allowed, but since my revelation came after watching taf and i wanted to answer your question, here is the only place i knew of to do so. sometimes it’s when you see something wrong with the writing that you come up with your own answers…and that happened last night and it kind of ties in with your question. rewatching torn and frayed for the first time actually made me feel better than when i watched it the first time. i admit, i spent the day debating a second viewing and actually got upset and angry at dean yet again, like i’ve been for the entire first half of the season…and then i decided ..dude watch the damn thing again….and i did…and i’m glad.
since your question was about dean, i’m going to answer that first but i do have something else i’d like to mention to you and get your take on it. here’s the part where jenny klein’s script irked me and by noticing what i thought her mistake to be, imo, i rationalized what to me it was really about concerning dean.
both boys are flawed. i’m not knocking dean down, but in order to answer your question, i have to point out what i feel to be his major flaw …one that he seems to be working on, but hasn’t mastered entirely just yet. it’s always been my opinion that dean has egocentric tendencies. dean has a tendency to see things the way he wants to see them instead of how they actually are. i’m not making this up as dean himself has actually self diagnosed himself with it in sam, interrupted. dean finds true happiness when everything is coming up dean….and what i mean by that is that dean is happiest when sam is with him….but not only physically with him…but with him emotionally and mentally.
to be honest i’m not sure what dean was angry with most this season concerning sam….i’m not sure if he was upset that sam didn’t look …because in all honesty most of his griping stemmed from his belief that sam was supposedly living a happy, normal life… that’s what i think dean was pissed about…that sam seemingly went on….even though in truth, sam didn’t really go on…he in essence broke and simply was clinging onto something to help him get through the days…that happened to be amelia. but he wasn’t happy and he soon realized, as he stated in hunteri heroici, that it wasn’t real. it wasn’t his life. he was running from his reality and he couldn’t do it anymore.
my point is that dean’s foundation was cracked….although sam knew he was running away from his real life, he did enjoy for those 10 months the mundane and safety that came with it. what sam seems to perceive as a “normal existence” ….a life without monsters…and sam’s desire to have that again has reemerged…and that scares dean….when sam starts talking about normal, dean thinks it’s a life that doesn’t include him. again, that mistake he makes when he’s sees things the way he thinks they are and not the way they are. so dean is afraid, imo, that sam will leave him, physically.
here’s what bugged me in torn and frayed….one of the things….the writer made dean tell sam at the end of the eppy was that he was always jealous that sam can separate the life from hunting. although that’s true about dean, he’s admitted jealousy on a few occasions, i didn’t get the impression of jealousy at all in this eppy.
dean was angry at sam because sam didn’t trust benny. sam stood his ground about it and wasn’t changing his mind, no matter what dean said or how dean felt. sam wasn’t on the same page with dean on this one, and he wasn’t going to be and that pissed dean off. he lost that sense of control that he’s used to having.usually dean can persuade sam, but on this….not happening. so dean walked out on sam.
sam’s reasons for never putting his trust in benny are quite valid and perfectly understandable imo. first, dean lied about him. second, sam has experience when it comes to trusting the wrong people, third, benny killed martin and he’s not about to take the word of vampire over a fellow hunter and family friend, fourth, sam was jealous and hurt over the fact that dean noted benny as being more of a brother than he has ever been and finally, the kicker…..sam told this to dean to his face…..”that it would come to this….my own brother would choose a vampire by making him believe that amelia met the same tragic fate as jessica….. and that right there, that one hit dean square in the face. he knew sam was right and that was another reason why he was angry….he always gets angry when sam nails dean with a truth he doesn’t want to hear…he did the same with gordon…
so dean walks out on sam. he had a decision to make….was he in it with his brother or was he going to choose benny?….so basically, dean is angry at sam because sam isn’t doing what dean wants sam to do…..and this time sam aint budging. now personally, i don’t think he was ever going to choose benny….i honestly think deep down dean understood why sam could never trust him, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t pissed that if he truly wanted the life he had with sam back, he’d have to accept sam’s feelings. i”m sure that the very fact that he felt he needed to make a choice pissed dean off. thing is, he didn’t really have to.
see, now i think i get what the writer meant about dean’s jealousy towards sam….so thanks e, because it was trying to answer your question, that i answered my own…..
i felt the issue was about dean not having the control he’s used to having. again, his foundation was cracking. him and sam were not on the same page and from where dean was standing possibly never will be. i really didn’t think jealousy had anything to do with it, then again, maybe what dean meant when he said that he was jealous that sam can separate the life meant that sam can find a way to have friends, like in s1 and still do the job. dean, imo, cannot do that. so instead of staying friends with benny but still doing his job with his brother without running to benny every time he calls…..he just cut ties entirely. it seems to me that dean couldn’t contemplate having both, his friend and his brother….again, seeing things the way he sees them instead of the way they are…..because in my very strong opinion….while sam is currently still reeling at what dean did to him with the text and is blinded by rage sam is reasonable and empathetic. dean could’ve just sat with sam and said listen, i’m in this with you all the way, you’re my brother…but benny saved my life and there’s a friendship there i just can’t break….sam totally would’ve understood and accepted that and in time, if he’d have gotten the chance to spend time with benny, may have changed his opinion about him.
so in the beginning part of the eppy dean was pretty much in the kid having a tantrum mode, not unlike how lucfier was told he was behaving by gabriel. not that i’m comparing dean to lucifer…i’m not. what i’m saying is dean didn’t get his way, which was sam conceding, and he was angry and acting like a kid……they both were….dean did the storming out and sam did the sulking thing….i mean when the door knocked a second time you saw a spark in sam’s eye because you knew he thought it was dean….he seemed quite freaked and down that it was amelia. what amused me was that the adult here was the angel who dean likes to refer to as a child. cas made me smile and i was glad he showed up when he did….by the time it was over i couldn’t help but wonder if cas showing up when he did was more divine intervention than anything else…. cas seemed to be the parent the boys were in dire need of…how these are the moments i miss bobby…dean was all sam would be here if he wanted to, trying to make this about sam, when in fact dean walked out on his brother this time around. cas wasn’t buying what dean was selling though…guess cas got used to dean and sam spats, cuz cas went to sam on his own and just as cas thought, sam was right there beside him. then dean gets all pissy and cas lays down the law….yay for him….
by the end of the eppy dean seemed to change direction…now i’m not sure who or what influenced him….kevin, cas, working with sam, knowing he needed to to the job without distraction, i don’t know….but it seemed dean has some kind of a revelation or maybe just maybe dean remembered the one very important thing about his brother which is vital to what he believes to be necessary to keep that perfect dean world of his in tact……if you give sam the opportunity to choose for himself what he wants to do with his life, he always chooses hunting with dean….dean always wins…. think about it….it happened three times…
1. scarecrow….the moment dean told sam he could live his own life, sam made the decision to go back to his brother. his dad could wait, dean came first…
2. free to be you and me/the end…..dean let sam go. sam found out for himself where he was supposed to be and that was with dean…and not just because he was worried about being lucifer’s vessel, but because he realized he can do the job and he only wanted to do the job with his brother by his side.
3. torn and frayed….dean opened the door for sam to go be with amelia…apparently at some point in the eppy , don’t know when, dean had a change of heart…..but sam said no…..he chose his brother….
maybe dean finally realized that controlling sam isn’t the way to go….let sam decide for himself and he’ll always choose his brother. i’d like to think dean finally realized that about sam. i’m sticking with that…
so regarding your question…..in all honesty, i agree a bit with amy, but then i think it has to do with a revealing ending…..
during the first half of the season, like i said, dean tends to see things the way he wants to….instead of wondering why sam didn’t look…..dean went directly to hurt and then anger….lots and lots of anger…
but i still say the anger was mixed with his own personal demons…dean saying sam left him in purgatory, i think he was referring to him thinking he left cas.
dean’s sc rant, had a lot to do, imo, with the very mistakes he made…like befriending a vampire, carrying him out inside him, lying about it.
i think, due to dean’s low self esteem, and perhaps the pedestal he does put his brother on, that it comes easier for him to believe that sam would simply not look due to girl than perhaps facing the truth that there is something seriously wrong with his brother.the worst thing that would break the foundation of dean’s world is the possibility of that world without sam….both in a physical and even mental sense.
mostly i think that the matter has been brought up by everyone but dean is because dean is the one person sam would actually have to provide answers for. dean asks, and we all find out the truth…and i don’t think the writers want that at this time. but hint at it by using characters who are conveniently dead….
so now i have no doubt you’re sorry you asked. i apologize to everyone on this board for the long ramble and the digression off course of taxi driver. is there a way to pm such a response? or is it more feasible to divide the post somehow? if this kind of a response is against board policy, i apologize for it…i promise it won’t happen again.
but just before i go i’d like to ask you this regarding taf?
the most annoying aspect of taf was jenny klein throwing the word love in there regarding sam and amelia… face it…if i had seen love in any of the fbs i might have been able to buy it….but alas….the fbs to me were basically about why sam chose her…
sam imploded and ran…..
first impression of amelia….bitch….but bitchy in a dean like way….she guilts him into taking the dog much like dean has guilted sam into going on the hunt with him at the beginning of show…
2. amelia dresses and drinks like dean
3. she lives in the same motel sam happens to be staying at.
4. sam’s first words to her were something along the lines of ….you’re lost, aren’t you?
so i get it. sam was lost. he finds someone alot like his brother, who is also lost and broken…it’s his perfect distraction…a perfect escape from his life….help this girl…try to save her. he couldn’t save his brother, he could save her..
so in essence she rescued sam. and perhaps for that reason he can use the word love…but i’m not buying love…i think he cares for her. i think he’s grateful to her..i think by allowing him to saver her, she saved him….
amelia was his vacation from life and while being with her he got to enjoy safe and mundane….
i think the term love was used by sam to make it a point to dean to make clear to him that what he did with the text was emotionally scarring for him. i still think it had more to do with jessica than amelia.
anyway, my question…..after watching torn and frayed, i went back to my original notion that amelia may not be who she says she is…
it was the end, which kind of tied in with how she arrived…
they have sex which sam admits to being nice, but a big mistake. so basically, it’s closure sex. sam pretty much, imo, realized that he ‘d made the right decision in the first place, by leaving her and going back to his real life…his reality.
it was her manner and her speech at the end that just made me wonder …is she really real, or is she working for someone? i still think something is very off about her and i still find it odd that we never saw the sex between them and nobody but sam has ever been in contact with her..
what are your thoughts?
Curious, I see it differently, I have a theory with Sam: in the last minute he is going to abandon the mission.
The only way that this will happen is if Sam IS being manipulated. Real Sam, sane Sam would never, ever do this. We must be seeing totally different Sam’s if you can think he would ever do something like that.
Looking for theories here – we as a group do awesome explaining some of the off the screen actions of the boys and I am need of that expert advice now. How did the boys move the demon trapped in the demon trap from the crossroads to the chair in the demon trap in the warehouse? I can see that they probably have a demon trap etched or written on the inside of the trunk but they still have to get him from point a to trunk to point b still. My two theories right now is that they took a page from the demon trap bullet and they have handcuffs with an etched demon trap on them. Either that or they have a demon trap pendant that they put around their neck. I think both of these would be enough to keep the demon from escaping but wondering what other theories you all can think of. Thanks 🙂
[quote]Looking for theories here – we as a group do awesome explaining some of the off the screen actions of the boys and I am need of that expert advice now. How did the boys move the demon trapped in the demon trap from the crossroads to the chair in the demon trap in the warehouse? I can see that they probably have a demon trap etched or written on the inside of the trunk but they still have to get him from point a to trunk to point b still. My two theories right now is that they took a page from the demon trap bullet and they have handcuffs with an etched demon trap on them. Either that or they have a demon trap pendant that they put around their neck. I think both of these would be enough to keep the demon from escaping but wondering what other theories you all can think of. Thanks :-)[/quote]
Beverly,
In the past, they have used a devil’s trap on the inside of a trunk to transport a demon (Kevin Tran’s mother did this earlier this year) and, in S5, Crowley and Dean transported Brady (Sam’s college friend that turned out to be a demon) by sticking a burlap sack over his head; it had a devil’s trap printed on it.
hey….i know we’ve had a lot of theories floating around out there….but another one just occurred to me and i thought it would be kind of a cool twist…..so i’d like to share and see what you think….didn’t know where to put it as it’s kind of speculating….so i’ll just throw it to you over here….i promise it’s short 😀
since show this season is dealing with perception….let’s say this:
heaven is different for everyone as we’ve learned in s5.
hell seems to be different as well for ea. individual as we’ve been learning this year and last i think it was.
so what if purgatory is different for ea. individual as based on their fears or desires.
if that’s the case, what if sam never left the lab that night as we are all being made to believe. what if sam ended up in purgatory just like cas and dean did but they were separated…purgatory is a very big place after all…it would make sense that the boys didn’t find ea. other, especially if they were manipulated into believing they were never together in the first place.
dean’s version of purgatory makes sense…it’s a full on war zone full of monsters, where he must battle every day to survive. i’m not saying benny isn’t real, he was…but i do believe benny was sent by someone to assist dean out of purgatory.
cas’s purgatory is seemingly fighting off levis …alone…at least that’s what he’s been made to believe….where cas is concerned, i doubt he was even in purgatory. i think he’s been with naomi the entire time and she was mindscrewing him…..i think his memories of purgatory have been planted in his head by naomi.
sam’s purgatory would be what we’ve seen i believe. the loss of his brother…the loss of everyone, and sam being utterly alone. i also believe in sam’s purgatory he would implode and run away….sam loves dogs. he’s always wanted one as we learned in dsotm when he took one in for his very own when he ran away at 15. so hitting a dog and stopping to take care of it makes sense….it’s something normal, a desire he’s always had. amelia fits too. she’s the female version of dean. she’s lost and broken. she needed to be saved and sam needed to save someone. all the fbs have been very dream like and saturated in color. they have also been told from amelia’s pov instead of sam’s. but if sam is actually in purgatory, then he’s the one remembering things the way that would make sense to him…..the story being told from amelia’s eyes would give sam reason to want to be with her….
it would also make sense that in sam’s purgatory he would have a normal existence, although a temporary one…one he knew was temporary from the start, as he himself admitted in the first place in hunteri heroici that he was running from reality. now i’m not sure if amelia’s father was real or if he was indeed the one who helped sam out of purgatory. the father was the one who finally cracked sam’s pretend world….and not a short bit of time after the call came that don was alive….this all happening at the same time dean was on his way out of purgatory…
the shadow outside sam’s window could very well be who rescued sam out of purgatory….the shadow could also very well be the one who told benny about the portal and got dean out of purgatory….
perhaps the reason sam can’t give answers about looking for dean is simply because he was in the same place dean was. he just had a different version of it.
now i know, what about sam meeting amelia at the bar and seeing her through the house…..well here’s the thing…as far as show has gone, the only person to have ever seen amelia and don has been sam.
if sam’s still suffering from mental stress from all that’s happened last season, then it would stand to reason that sam would believe still that what the person who was part of his purgatory would still be real to him..
all this talk of sam’s desire for normal, which he seemingly thinks he gave up could actually be sam striving to remember his true reality…..what was normal, his real life with his real true memories….not the fantasy world he may have lived and is still kind of remembering…
meg and bobby questioning sam’s mental state could be the start of sam realizing and remembering the truth.
here’s something else…
remember the eppy when sam was looking up amelia richardson on the computer…and everyone chalked it up to mere stalking…
what if the reason he was looking up amelia richardson was simply to see if she existed, or at the very least to get info on her…..
i mean if sam knew her, then what was the point of looking her up on the computer, he already knew where she lived and who she was living with. she’s the one who did all the talking in the fbs, i would think he knows everything about her.
and she knew nothing of what he did….odd right?
what if amelia richardson happened to be someone sam knew in the past…maybe from his college days…or maybe she was simply a victim he came across during one of the cases….or maybe she was someone from when he was souless….we never got the real name of the girl from the man who knew too much…the one souless sam shot…what if her name was amelia richardson…
the girl who played amelia simply could be one of the millions of faces sam may have recalled and gave her the name of the girl he killed when souless?
even if the girl killed wasn’t named amelia….my point is that he could’ve gotten the name amelia richardson from any of the various cases he worked on when apart from dean, or as i said, it could’ve been the name of someone he knew of back when he was in college.
.what if he put a face with a name he already knew?
also…dean had pictures of lisa and ben. i believe he kept one in his wallet? sam had no picture of amelia…the supposed love of his life..not a shot of him and her together in his wallet for him to pine over when he first and secondly broke up with her?
not to mention the fact that when sam was sitting in the living room waiting for her father to show…and the amelia/don photo album was sitting in front of him…he has it in his hands but conveniently never gets to open it to see any pics….
doesn’t that seem odd to you? when they showed dean and lisa, pictures of them were all over her house….
not one picture…not one of amelia alone, or sam and her together….
odd don’t you think?
any thoughts?
nappi 815, you give me the best theory with support that I read until now