“Do You Believe in Miracles” – A Week Later

118 Comments

1. I took Metatron to mean he was getting his power from the Word of God stone, like Dean was getting his power from the Mark of Cain. So Metatron was just giving Dean good advice-that the word of God was more powerful than MoC.

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   1. EireneS,
      I agree with you. Metatron was boasting that his power source was stronger than Dean’s power source. My knife is bigger than your knife. My bat is bigger than your bat. He was taunting Dean. My thought about that, though, was that Metatron said it with awe. [b]The Word of God[/b] is the strongest power in the universe (and I have it, haha), but simply acknowledging that meant that he was acknowledging God’s immense power. God was more powerful than the angels (Lucifer). Having [i]the Word of God[/i] makes one invincible. That statement has deep religious ramifications. [i]”Next time, try being powered by the Word of God”[/i] is something any religious cleric would love to hear people say and believe – in fact their goal is to get people to live their lives by those exact words. I like those words a lot. Metatron was never powered by the [i]real[/i] word of God. He never understood God’s words, their intentions, their meanings like Castiel does. That is why Metatron had to be stopped. He went for power rather than the mission. His statement said, next time, someone should actually try being powered by the authentic meaning behind God’s words. If understood, they are more powerful than anyone could ever imagine. The symbolic meaning to Metatron saying them could be “Next time, someone who truly understands and is powered by the real words of God, like Castiel understands the words of God, will be worthy of leading heaven”.

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      1. GADREEL re-established the mission of the angels to watch over humanity. Wasn’t that the mission he had in the Garden? So, yes, his character’s resolution is powerful in several ways. It makes me wonder why, Tahmoh P.’s skills as an actor were underused this year- of course I know why- time constraints. His performance in 9.1 and 9.23 are strong and convincing. Now, what does Cas do with all of those angels? And can those souls left in the veil enter Heaven yet? I think Cas needs to look for his hidden grace over hiatus.

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         1. But not quite find it! It’ll be more satisfying to watch him find it onscreen…before Theo’s burns out!

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2. Nope I have to say my opinion of the finale hasn’t changed. I loved every second of it. It did for me everything that I wanted to see. I have said this in other reviews but the conversation between the brothers hasn’t happened yet because the lessons haven’t been learned yet. When Dean gets a huge double dose of what Sam has had to live through he will understand why Sam wanted to die rather than see anyone else get hurt. And Sam will find out just how far he is willing to go to save his brother regardless of Dean’s wishes. I loved Gadreels arc it was a fitting end to a confused and conflicted angel. Castiel’s face when he learned that they were too late to save Dean, how devastated he was that his job, to save Dean had failed. And what can you say about Mark Shepard what a commanding performance. Crowley’s plan all along had been to corrupt Dean into becoming his Knight in hell.
   And of course Jared and Jensen I am still emotionally destroyed by that final scene. Others have put it into words more eloquently than I ever could how beautifully acted, written, directed and just everything it was. It was perfection.

   I know many had problems with this season and it probably ruined the finale for some. But I loved this season overall, there were only a few episodes that didn’t work as well as I am sure the writers would have hoped. The finale did what finale’s are supposed to do at least for me…make me sit on pins and needles for 5 months waiting to see what happens next. I couldn’t be more exited for season 10.

   Are we allowed to add a link to a great video recapping season 9? Probably only those that enjoyed the season will like the video. If it is not ok let me know and I will edit it out.
   http://youtu.be/cpPXi5ZsN18

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   1. thanks CHERYL42. I did not love the whole season but this video is the BOMB. you all are so creative.

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   2. Cheryl42,
      I am thrilled to hear that you loved Season 9! I actually did too, with a few exceptions as you said.
      You have a great deal of patience, but I will take your lead and choose to believe that “maybe next year” we will get the talk we want. I don’t want it to solve everything. I am OK with there still being drama, but I’d like to hear true reconciliation now and then please. I want my heart to melt at least as often as it breaks!

      and posting the video is OK. Thanks for sharing it.

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   3. i’m with you Cheryl. as a matter of fact I actually may be the one and only person who had no problem with any episode at all this season. I loved it, from beginning to end. then again, I guess I can say that I see a different story being told. carver was chosen show runner for a reason. he was there since s3 and he was part of the creative genius that both created the boys inner monster/issues and he was part of the same team that explored it just enough so it would give us a full understanding of who these boys are, but yet never truly dealt with these issues or resolved them. kripke’s story, while apocalyptic, still was based on sam and dean Winchester. during his tenure, even though other characters had been introduced, and we had deliciously evil antagonists, in the end the story focused on sam and dean. it was about them. sera gave us good stuff. I loved s6, it’s one of my favorites. The mistake I feel sera made, was that she was so worried about topping the apocalypse( I mean where can you truly go from there) that she lost focus on the story of the boys. I’ve seen many posts that had people disappointed with s7 and yet their one complaint was the same, s7 had a disconnect of the boys. a lot were upset with the death of bobby, ( which I kind of saw as inevitable) because she wanted to take from them their support system. in a way I was excited for that because then they would have to rely and depend on ea. other once again. but unfortunately in the process of telling the story, the boys also lost themselves and thus lost that connection they had with ea. other. now maybe sera had a plan to get that back, maybe not, maybe it just happened and people took notice and thus started their complaining. whatever the case, sera ended up giving up her reign as show runner. now I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, but from what I’ve seen of these last two years going into s10, I have come to my own understanding and I like what carver is doing, at least by how i’m understanding it. as I said, where does one go after the apocalypse? maybe one doesn’t try to top it with big bads that can possibly outdo ea. other every year. that seems like an impossible endeavor to me. maybe the best thing to do is go back to the origin of the story, what made the show so successful in the first place…go back to sam and dean. that is what carver has been doing. he’s been telling their story all along while the angel stuff has been the filler eps. metatron is an antagonist, yes, as is Crowley and abbadon, but they were never the big bads. the big bad monsters these last couple of seasons going into season 10…are in fact sam and dean themselves. welcome to carver’s arc…sam and dean the human story.;)
      it would’ve been so easy and unrealistic to have sam bounce back from his trauma of both s6 and s7 and miraculously figure out that dean wasn’t dead but in fact in purgatory and thus as brilliant and robotic as sam is, he would’ve found a way to rescue dean in no time at all. after all sam isn’t really a human being right? he’s some kind of mandroid:)..no carver did something very smart and very realistic and very human. after his soul got returned and his wall broken, after living through the endless guilt of every person sam was responsible for killing once his memories came back, after dealing with a broken psyche to his near death, after losing bobby twice and then losing the one person who gave him the strength to keep it all together in the first place, sam did the unthinkable…he broke. losing his brother was the last emotional straw sam could take and he broke and he had no support to help him bounce back. he had nobody to say wait sam, I know you’re at your emotional breaking point but listen maybe dean isn’t dead. no he had nobody. he was alone. he was scared. he was broken and nobody was around to glue him back together. so sam reacted as most every other human being in this world would have..he imploded and ran away from his own reality. wow, what a truly amazing and wonderful way to go. sam isn’t a mandroid after all. I knew it. I knew that boy was just as human as his brother way to go sam. 😉
      so we go begin to go through s8, which by the way carver did tell us was all about perception, and I admit it, the first half of the season was very frustrating to watch. many were upset with sam. many were upset with dean. I happened to have found dean quite unlikeable in the first half of the season. but as the season continued and as I went into s9 I began to see the story carver was telling so much more clearly. again, my eyes are different than most, but what I was seeing made me very happy. now the first half of s8 will never be my favorite, but going back, I understand it’s purpose…I can see where it’s leading and it is now easier for me to watch, for it’s been made clear to me what the true monsters of carver’s story are….sam and dean’s inner demons. look at how it’s all been playing out.
      sam breaks and runs from the life that killed his family. dean returns and yet he’s very different, very angry. but who is he really angry at? sam tells dean he believed he was dead. he ran away from the life. he stopped hunting. but dean’s anger doesn’t really start showing until he asks if there was a girl? sam says yes but then there wasn’t. he also had told dean he’d been driving wandering for months before he hit the dog. the girl had nothing to do with him not hunting. but dean was blinded to all of sam words, all but the ones that say there was a girl. dean wrongly concludes that sam left him in purgatory because of her. but all along we learn that dean was truly angry at himself for he believed that he had left cas. he deflected his anger onto his brother as he had often done in the past. he claimed sam had a responsibility and people died while he was living normal, but once upon a time dean lived a normal life. unlike sam’s non-love fest, dean was actually happy with a family. and all the while dean was living normal, people died. so why is dean so angry? could it be because in dean’s eyes, his biggest enemy has been the idea of normal and safe, this desire from his brother. and the very idea that sam may have found that and lived it is a threat to dean. because normal is the one thing that can take sam away from him? but so what, being safe and normal would never diminish sam’s love for his brother. working side by side isn’t what makes them close. it’s not proximity for sam. sam loves dean no matter what he does or where he is. dean is his brother and they always be close. so what is the real problem here? could it be that dean needs sam by his side because as dean has confessed in a few eps already, he doesn’t want to be alone? why did dean really tell sam benny was more like a brother than he’s ever been? it’s obviously not true on any level. but he said it. most think it was said out of anger. but after watching these last two seasons I don’t think that’s the case. I think dean said it because he feels benny is like him. dean found contentment in purgatory. he admitted as much to sam. he was free to kill. no regret, no remorse, no guilt. it left him in a calm, kind of like what he admitted the blade was doing for him. letting him kill and yet feeling a sense of calm. scary huh. so maybe dean said what he said because being with benny allowed dean a freedom he doesn’t have with sam sam keeps dean human. benny doesn’t. dean was pretty amped up to do the trials. he claimed it was because he saw how his story ends. maybe dean was just trying to find a way to escape his own inner monster, to never have face up to it and deal with it. getting killed by doing the trials would not only end his life, but it would end on a heroic high note. sam of course wasn’t having any of it. this is where his inner monster comes into play. his lack of worth, his belief that he is nothing but a failure to his brother…his misconceived notion that dean only sees him as a major disappointment. so instead sam does the trials. we come to understand as the trials take their emotional and physical toll on sam that he had always seen himself as tainted and unworthy. and in that church he admits to being nothing but a mere failure to dean. so sam’s monster is out in full glory and dean has to find a way to defeat it. he does, with a promise in that church that sam has always comes first. it’s both of them come what may. no one has ever come first in his eyes. sam believes his brother trusts him and this wounds the monster that lives within sam. unfortunately his monster isn’t dead as we had all hoped.
      dean’s monster breathes life into sam’s monster. dean’s monster is strong. it’s laid in wait, being buried under years of emotional crap, but dean’s monster has finally climbed out and reached the surface. it’s his turn now. what is dean’s monster? seems to me to be his self hatred and his lack of trust in himself. now this monster has had it’s fun over the years. after all it led to most of the misperception these boys have had regarding how the other feels about them. this monster has played on sam’s own inner demons as much as it toyed with dean. this monster hasn’t kept who he is a secret. we’ve seen it throughout the series. but now, now we’re getting to fully explore it. look at what dean’s inner monster has been able to accomplish this season. it’s managed to push dean into extreme measures yet again, (oh how it loves to do this) but this time to the point of going too far. it’s also managed to wake up sam’s inner monster who apparently hasn’t yet been slayed. sam, who believed dean in that church now questions it. dean did in fact turn to another angel. he lied to sam, which means dean doesn’t and will never trust in sam. he only said what he said for what could be only one reason in sam’s eyes…dean didn’t want to be alone. it can’t be that dean did it because he loves sam, I mean, sam said it..what is the upside to my being alive? sam’s own belief that he is unworthy still, is also obviously his brother’s true belief as well. misperception rearing it’s ugly head again…yes one of the monsters that carver does seem to enjoy antagonizing the boys with. it gets better really. this monster of dean’s is deliciously evil isn’t it. worse than our beloved king of hell could ever dare dream to be. one which could also give abbadon a run for the money, because dean’s monster destroys from the inside. look at what this monster has gotten dean to do. it’s gotten him to set him free. Lucifer should take a page out of this thing’s book. now what was buried for so long has made itself free into a walking talking demonic entity that can unleash all it’s glory, that dean has been fighting to keep at bay for all these very long years. whoa, can’t wait to see this monster at work.
      of course there is hope, as with all monsters on this show, they all end up way too overconfident and underestimate the very foundation of these boys and what makes them prevail and that’s the love these boys have for ea. other. now as much as carver has frustrated us with the seeming rift in the boys, I think it’s all been an illusion. these monsters think they have won, especially dean’s. I mean dean’s inner demon has been brought to life in literal sense, seeming as though it’s succeeded. but I don’t believe it to be so. s8 and especially s9 is quite telling of that. because with all the hurt and misunderstanding that resulted in s8, love won out. that’s important. it may seem that love has indeed taken a back seat, given dean’s actions and sam’s hurt and anger, but in fact, if one pays close attention to s9, one can see that neither of the boys for one moment have stopped loving ea. other and they never stopped showing it. even sam’s seeming harsh words were in an effort to make dean fight to save their brotherhood. yes he baited him, but sam knew what to do to get to his brother. to fight. that’s all sam wanted, was for dean to engage, to not bury all this crap yet again, but deal with what’s happened and fix it. but the monster in dean wouldn’t allow for that. he had his minions help. sam was right to bait dean as he did, because he was starting to get to him, but unfortunately I think pride got in the way as seen when all hope in sam’s eyes had been dashed by dean’s ” I don’t break easy”. yet still sam continued to fight for their relationship. never for one second did sam not show how much he loved his brother despite the pain that still plagues him. even in the final scene together, love is prominent, so it may seem like dean’s monster has one, but it’s all an illusion. you see as much as this monster has seemingly had the upper hand for most of the boys lives and toyed with them throughout, the one thing that has remained constant, the one prince this dragon monster cannot seem to slay is sam Winchester. his love for his brother, but more important, his brother’s love for him.
      what a great story carver is telling, if that’s the story you choose to hear and see. carver hasn’t lied to anyone. he said he had a three year arc. he laid out what ea. year would focus on and he’s kept to his word. Cheryl has said it and I concur, his story isn’t finished. there’s more to tell. the reason we didn’t get the talk we all so desperately are waiting to hear is because the lessons haven’t been learned. carver knows what we want, it’s just not time yet. so he gives us little crumbs here in there just to remind us all that he hasn’t truly forgotten us…but he’s not going to change the way he’s telling us the brother’s story just because we are too impatient for the results. the monsters haven’t yet been defeated. in fact, the true big bad has just come out to play in the real world for the first time ever….my guess is that carver and co. will have a little bit of fun with that…but I have no doubt that love will defeat this monster. I have no doubt sam will save dean, as he has saved him every day since show began. sam has always saved dean from himself and he will do so again. I have no doubt after all is said and done dean will have learned a very valuable lesson, as will sam. they will come to understand ea. other and they will grow closer for it. as i’m sure this show can go on for a few more years, I have no doubt that under carver’s tenure we will see what he’s told us he’d give us….a new, mature relationship between the men they are now and not the boys they were then. 😉

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      1. Nappi, can I just tell you, yet again, how much I liked your posts? When you lay it out like that it makes so much sense. I agree with many of your observations regarding how the brothers misperceive each other. I especially agree that Dean deflects his anger on to Sam sometimes. Often it is not Sam who he is angry at but it feeds the misconceptions. There have been a few things here and there I haven’t agreed with you on, but I do love your posts (Long or not! Sometimes I grab a beverage and settle in:)) and you never fail to restore hope that this is all leading somewhere! Thanks.

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         1. 🙂 😉

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      2. Jeremy Carvers episodes in the early years always had a long slow reveal. He knows more than any writer the show has ever had (other than EK) the story is the brothers. The rest is set dressing. He isn’t going to leave us hanging thinking WTH. From what I understand the 200th episode is going to be a huge episode. I don’t know if demon Dean will be resolved then but I will bet there will be a huge emotional impact about something. Every chapter of this story is fascinating and I can’t get enough of it. Can’t wait…
         I know some had a problem with not enough of Sam crying while holding dead Dean but I loved the scene of him gently placing Dean on his bed. His devastated face, sitting alone, his resolve…all of those final moments had so much impact for me. It was heartbreaking that once again Sam is alone but this time he isn’t going to go quietly into madness. He is going to make someone pay.

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         1. Cheryl I’ve been thinking about that in the car on my way back home just now. I actually thought sam’s reaction to dean’s death was not only perfect but quite telling. sam has seen dean die three times now and ea. and every time he’s acted a bit differently, but yet the same. the first time dean died sam was a mess, I mean an angsty blubbering mess. hell I felt more for sam when dean died then I did for dean. his reaction was quite telling of what came after. sam was so broken that ruby was able to weasel her way into his life, manipulating him at every turn, helping to convince him of the way he could make up the loss of dean…essentially we got s4.
            the second time dean died, we didn’t get to see sam’s initial reaction, but we did get to see the ultimate result. we did see the shock, the fear, the utter despair of a man who was totally alone and then we see in flashbacks a very unhappy grief induced relationship with a woman he obviously didn’t love but yet very much needed. he in essence tried to find a substitute for his brother, someone who needed saving, someone who needed him. he escaped the reality of his own life the only way he knew how, but in that time he did manage to find himself again and that was all that mattered. I guess what i’m trying to say is, sam ended up broken, but he did in the end accept his loss or at least tried to the best way he could.
            now sam has watched his brother die for a third time. we do see him cry. we do see him in pain. we do feel his loss and his regret. but this time I don’t see a broken sam. this time i see a sam who is resolute. he isn’t like we’ve seen him in the past. this time sam stays strong. he doesn’t accept dean’s death like he did in s8, on the contrary, we see sam in fact do the opposite of accepting… as we watch sam sit in that dark room with his red eyes and bottle of whiskey, we see a different sam start to emerge…we see a sam determined to save his brother, as this death is unacceptable to him. I think sam’s reaction to dean’s death is very telling of what is to come in s10. see I didn’t see a sam who summoned Crowley to make a deal, as Crowley assumed. sam said that Crowley got dean into this, he’s getting him out, one way or another, so help me God. didn’t seem to me that sam summoned Crowley to make a deal. seemed more like sam is going to make Crowley do what he needs him to do, deal or no deal. sam’s reaction to dean’s death gives me hope for s10. I don’t get this nagging feeling in my gut that says sam is going to get dean back by making any deals. I think sam is going to save dean his own way but I don’t believe that sam will have forgotten any of the lessons that his experiences have taught him. 😉

            thanks for all the kind words from everyone who takes the time out of their day to read my opinions. It’s not my intention to lessen or take away from those who have grievances, it’s only another way of seeing things in a different light that may or may not offer a more positive way of looking at things.. glass full kind of outlook. 🙂

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            1. Nappi – I get what you’re trying to say, but seriously? 3 times??? What about Mystery Spot?

      3. Nappi, i just wanted to say how much i love your post – i dont agree with it- but I love it to pieces. Mostly for the monster comparisons as i have just finished a Godzilla marathon and it simply speaks to me. especially as i watch Godzilla Vs Destroyah. Poor Godzilla is radioactive, his tempurture is rising and he will soon explode in a nuclear mealtdown and take the earth with him. While the Japanese are freaking out about the world exploding all i can think is …. Godzilla must be in a lot of pain.

         And right there…..i’m worried about Godzilla (and cried a bit when they killed him). And that makes me think about what you said about Sam and in s8 him being human for the first time in a long time. Ok…I agree with you there. I floved Sam’s very human reaction…how he simply couldn’t deal with that one more thing (Dean disappearing/dying)on his Jenga tower. The problem is Carver an the writers slammed Sam for being human. ANd they had other charectors slam Sam for being human. The lack of understanding was tragic. Dean, i got…he was in purgatory. Exenuating circomstances. But the thing is when Sam dies, Dean wasn’t the bad guy for geieving the loss. When Dean died, Bobby grieved his loss, went on benders and fell apart. Only Sam is not allowed to fall apart, grieve and not be able too think beyond his loss. he gets shamed, told he he doesn’t care. The writers still had everyone else expect Sam to be basically the Energizer Bunny. There was not one stitch of empathy for Sam. And that was why Sam’s monster succeeds. because he is never allowed to be human….unless he is and then he is considered a liability and he gets sent out of the fight…or if he refuses gets knocked out and told his own family isn’t his fight.

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         1. Amyh, I honestly had no problem in the least sympathizing with Sam at the beginning of S8 (or ever!) None. Then I had no problem at all with being irritated with BOTH characters as S8 progressed! They both acted like jerks at times. That is why I will never be a fan of that season. In the first half I saw both characters written in a way that I still feel wasn’t true to their characters. I honestly don’t see why Sam fans can’t see that there are many of us Bi, Cas, Dean fans, and fans in general that love, understand, and support Sam as a character. There is hate out there for sure. For all the characters. People are going to criticize and dislike, that’s what they do but to say Sam is unsympathetic or attacked from all sides (like Godzilla) is wrong IMO. I still believe Dean was trying to keep Sam out of a fight that Dean knew he wasn’t likely to win. He has done it before, I don’t understand why people keep thinking Dean did it for selfish reason. He has done things for selfish reasons, but not everything he does is! He will keep trying to protect Sam until his dying day (sometimes when it isn’t a wise choice). I guess he has had his dying day now. Again.

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            1. BINGO……….
               my work is done…..
               a thousand thanks.

            2. First of all i thank you Leah,Cheryl and nappi for staying positive.
               [quote]I honestly don’t see why Sam fans can’t see that there are many of us Bi, Cas, Dean fans, and fans in general that love, understand, and support Sam as a character. [/quote]But leah amyh was not talking about fans but the characters in the show.I do not know about amyh but it would be better for some characters to see things from Sam’s perspective.Not just tell him to get over it or introduce people to Sam like how garth did.It is not about Sam being right but just that there are some people who will value the pain Sam is going though or value him as a person.

            3. I know what you are saying anonymousN but the perception that no characters had any empathy for Sam and that all characters backed Dean’s play are coming from fans IMO. From my perspective some of the characters who care for both brothers just wanted them to work it out. I just don’t see Sam as this besieged monster to be pitied like Godzilla. Sorry. I DO agree the show does a poor job of making Sam’s POV clear so there is a lot of ‘fill in the blanks’ by fans which lead to confusion about his motivations. I think the current crop of writers definitely don’t do the character of Sam justice sometimes, particularly the last few years. I think many of the characters value Sam as a person. I think Jody does, Charlie does, Garth does, Cas does. Could the show have Sam connect better with some of these characters? Yes absolutely.

            4. I get what you are saying.But the thing is there is no character who will stand up for Sam when Sam is in the room when Dean is against him.I will tell you something, I liked Garth but after the way he introduced Sam to his girlfriend I did not like the way he introduced Sam.If I was in Sam’s place I would be insulted by the way he introduced me.Charlie was a character who could have had a better connection with Sam.But I think it as criminal as how they missed a chance with Kevin.
               Personally I want a character that is more on Sam’s side..not against Dean but on Sam’s side.Castiel did not show the care that a character would show and Jody was missing a little too much but that is understandable seeing Jody’s job.
               I am repeating this but that is because I take issue with how Garth introduced Sam…I thought it would be okay after weeks go by but whenever I see Garth’s name I remember the insulting way he introduced Sam.If that is how my friend will introduce me I would rather not have that friend.The things he said were not for introductions.I am sorry but that introduction has been niggling me since it has been shown.and also Kevin’s “get over it”.I would have been okay if Sam’s pov was not one or two sentences in episode 23.but it was .

3. Hello Nightsky,

   My thinking about the finale was in keeping with the whole of Season 9 which was that we had a story line that took time away from the Winchester brothers. The angel war wasn’t connected to the brothers like Azazel’s special children or the Michael vs. Lucifer vessels. The Trials and MoC storylines had more relevance and so they were more interesting. When I re-watched, I tuned out during the angel scenes unless they involved Cas or Gadreel. They were the only angels connected to the brothers and they were only ones we knew well enough about to care about. As with most of the fandom, I found the angel wars to be bleh! Let’s get back to the brothers. As it went with the season, so it went with the finale. I think Carver did what he could, but he had a lot of story lines to tie together in a limited time period so the brother moments suffered. Unfortunately.

   I look forward to reading more of your writing, Nightsky.

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   1. Booklady,
      Thank you for your kind words about the review! It is great to know how it is received!

      I was actually OK with the idea of the angel war, I just don’t think it was executed well. Everything about it made sense – angels fall, they are confused, there is chaos, etc. but reducing them all to either power hungry despots or mindless soldiers was a cheap choice. None of us bought the war because the characters were comical. They were too transient too. Bartholomew was the big bad, but then he was gone. Who was that other guy (the one who captured Cas)? I can’t even remember his name without looking it up! Was he supposed to be memorable? Hael was confused but then she turns murderous? Same thing with the angel/reaper Cas slept with. Then bowling alley guy?? Really?? A celestial being who offers loyalty based on bowling? Cas is complex and believable. Gadreel was complex and believable. I don’t think the other angels should have been reduced to 2-dimensional cardboard cutouts who were all basically idiots. I don’t think the angel storyline worked because the characters were basically a parade of fools.

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      1. Aww, but the bowling alley angel played it off like “The Big Lebowski” (the film included a pre-Luci Mark Pellegrino 😉 ) which made the whole scene that much more dubious in an already dubious scenario surrounding Metatron. Tahmoh still gets a star in my book just for his facial expression at all the shenanigans.

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4. Hello nightsky. Exactly! My feelings were mixed as well. There were moments that were gut-wrenching and heart breaking but there was a need in me to hear ‘more’ said as well. Some actual exchange of meaningful heartfelt dialogue. Those dangling half sentences drive me nuts. I know these guys are not prone to chick-flick moments but heck what next, grunts? 🙂 A little less Metatron and a little more of the main characters would have been lovely. I have watched it a few more times and it is really beautifully lit, directed, acted and written (with the exceptions I have mentioned). I am excited for the set-up of next season but I don’t expect any chit chat between the boys for a good while. I am hoping, as Cheryl and Nappi keep saying, this is all heading somewhere good for the brothers because I need to see a little light at he end of the tunnel. I need to see Sam dedicated to saving Dean. Even if it means only that Dean can die human and not remain what he has become.

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   1. Leah,
      It makes me feel better to know that other people had a mixed reaction to the finale! Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I really needed emotional clarity about what I saw because it confused me so much. How could I love something that I didn’t like? I concluded that the appeal was a tremendous compliment to the acting that we saw and how much we/I love J2 AND Sam and Dean. I am addicted to the actors and their characters’ story. Plus Jeremy knows how to tug at heartstrings, which is why I was/am confused by the simplistic dialogue. Jeremy is a master of words, so why did he purposefully withhold a deeper talk? I appreciate Cheryl42’s theory that it is still in the works. Please let that not be all we get!

      Reply

      1. See my comment previously submitted about the power of the unspoken word and Carver’s juxtapositions in the script.

         Reply

   2. Leah I’m hoping I’m right as well. 🙂

      Reply

5. Great review Nightsky. I just loved this entire season (with a few less than inspiring eps) and the finale did not fail me. In fact, I could go so far as say it shocked me. I didn’t expect to see Dean die although turning demon didn’t totally shock me. As for the misses, they could have cut out at least 5 minutes of Metatron because I am just so done with him. I didn’t like him in Season 8 and liked him even less in season 9 but I guess he served his purpose there. That whole scene with the homeless attacking and killing the angel was just so brutal. Metatron is like a spoiled little brat that had all his toys taken away and now that dad has left he’s taking everyone else’s and stomping his feet when the “story” doesn’t quite go the way he wrote it.

   I would have loved more time with the brothers. They had 22 episodes of crap to make up for and get hashed out and I don’t feel the brief conversations they did have were enough to get past all the hurt. I realize the guys just aren’t the talking it out kind of brothers but they are not young guys anymore. They are more mature and I feel they should be handling the feels with more words. I too want to hear the words and not have to read between the lines and come up with my own interpretation.

   I would be embarrassed to admit to just how many times I have rewatched the finale and each and every time I have the same gut wrenching pit in the stomach feel when the blade goes into Dean and then again with the “I lied” comment from Sam and then finally Dean’s last words “I’m proud of us” just does me in. I understand why it had to go this way. Dean couldn’t kill Metatron because the angels already hate the Winchesters so no points scored there. It had to be Cas that exposes Metatron for what he really is in order to get Heaven back on track in season 10. The least I can hope for in Season 10 is that Sam does [u]not[/u] make a deal but instead fines another way to save and bring back Dean.

   Crowley, no surprise that he had an ulterior plan for Dean because Crowley never does anything that does not benefit Crowley in the end. One can only hope that there is still enough Dean in Dean to prevent him from going 100% Knight of Hell demon.

   In closing, outstanding acting from all our guys and of course Jensen and Jared were just Oscar worthy. 9 years and this show still has me on the edge of my seat, crying my eyes out, and beyond anxious for Season 10 to get here.:)

   Reply

   1. Trucklady,
      I absolutely agree with everything you said…with one exception. I believed Crowley when he said he didn’t really know this would happen to Dean. I don’t think he had a hidden agenda. He repeated “I never lied Dean”. I will explore that more in Threads (which I’ve started to write already) but I think the title “do you believe in miracles” reinforces Crowley’s monologue that he thought Dean becoming a demon was too good to have hoped for – a miracle from his standpoint. I think his only motive in suggesting the MoC was to get a weapon that someone else could use to defeat his enemy. I don’t think Cain would have judged Crowley “worthy” so I don’t think Crowley getting the mark himself was an option. What do you all think?

      Reply

      1. Crowley always has a self-serving agenda, but you’re right I don’t think even he thought it would end the way it did, but I don’t suppose Crowley suspected that Dean, as opposed to Cas, would go head-to-head with Metatron. S 8/9 leave me with some serious questions about Crowley’s past.
         [*]Why does Crowley smoke out red? No one else ever has.
         If Crowley was an 18th century Scotsman how does his line to Naomi “What about [ancient] Mesopotamia, love?” fit it?
         Speaking of Scotland who’s got a Gavin-in-the-present-changes-history theory?[/*]

         Reply

      2. Except. Crowley knew that getting the Mark and using the blade would induce Dean to either kill, or die. He knew that Cain tried to kill himself with the blade and came back a demon. He never lied, but omitted some pretty important information. Kind of like Ruby, who never lied when she said that Sam was the only one able to kill Lillith, but omitted to mention that doing so would release Lucifer. Crowley is a master manipulator and played Dean like a fiddle. The only difference is that he was partially “humanized” last year, so I’m not sure what will come out of that.

         Reply

      3. Except. Crowley knew that getting the Mark and using the blade would induce Dean to either kill, or die. He knew that Cain tried to kill himself with the blade and came back a demon. He never lied, but omitted some pretty important information. Kind of like Ruby, who never lied when she said that Sam was the only one able to kill Lillith, but omitted to mention that doing so would release Lucifer. Crowley is a master manipulator and played Dean like a fiddle. The only difference is that he was partially “humanized” last year, so I’m not sure what will come out of that.

         Reply

6. what a nice, thought provoking review.
   I just realized how and why family/friends fight. they Hear something totally different than its intent. better yet they FEEL something completely different.
   there are many different ways people have taken ‘I LIED’, ‘I’M PROUD OF US’ ‘THE WORD OF GOD’ Dean’s saying whatever it takes to get Metatron. etc

   most of all I have read one overall feeling from the fandom. [this is the only site I go] we want the brothers to be brothers AGAIN.
   I can/cant believe there were better scenes with Sam/Dean’s death and they did not use them. WHO DOES THAT SERVE….

   I LOVED the Gadreel pathos. he is the ORIGINAL VICTIM of LUCIFER. before Eve even. wish they bring him back some how.
   hope to read more of your views.

   Reply

   1. Thank you Nolanola. I appreciate your compliment about the review.

      My hope was that Metatron would be killed and Gadreel would live and carry through into Season 10. I really, really enjoyed Gadreel’s storyline plus I am enthralled with Tahmoh’s voice! I just keep listening to his inflections, phrasing, etc. It’s a little like “Mark Sheppard syndrome” – I just love to hear Tahmoh talk! I find myself paying attention to [i]how[/i] he delivers dialogue as much as what the dialogue is saying. Plus I thought Gadreel was a fascinating character. Flawed, sincere, both good and bad guy at one point. I saw him as a wonderful compliment to Castiel in Heaven. I was hoping he became Cas’ 2nd in command. I like Hannah too and we all know how much the show needs females in continuing roles, but I was really hoping for Gadreel. At least he had a good death.

      Reply

      1. I too, love Tahmoh’s phrasing. Don’t recall him being that different in BATTLESTAR GALLACTICA.

         Castiel has got to be the de-facto leader in Heaven.

         Metafruc has gotta go, gotta go.:)

         Reply

7. Lovely review,[b] Nightsky.[/b] My thoughts on the finale are basically my thoughts on the entire season which is that there was way too much angel stuff, way too little brother stuff. The angel wars storyline has just bored me. I wasn’t interested in the angel scenes, I was interested in the brother scenes and there weren’t anywhere near enough of those for my liking. After all these past months of exhausting to watch brotherly conflict I wanted to hear the brothers talk, properly talk, not just “I get it” and “I lied” and “I know”. So frustrating! 🙁 The way they kept cutting from Dean’s death scene/Sam’s desperate grief to yet more scenes of Metatron drove me nuts.
   When I read recently that they cut the Sam/Dean’s death scene and that they gave us the take where Jared was the least emotional…well, I was just flabberghasted. Jensen said his shoulder was soaked with tears. I wanted to see those tears. I do love me some Sammy tears/angst. 🙂

   I was very happy to finally get some POV from Sam regarding the possessiion, plus I did adore Dean’s “I’m proud of us” and I have watched those last few scenes between Sam and Dean so many times. Dean’s death ripped my heart to shreds and Sam’s grief then pulverised those shreds into dust. Such beautiful acting from Jared and Jensen. As is usual, I also loved every second of Crowley. Overall though the finale just left me feeling rather underwhelmed.

   Quote Booklady:
   [quote]Let’s get back to the brothers.[/quote]
   Yes. This. Please.

   ETA – Thanks for posting that vid, [b]cheryl42[/b]. I wasn’t a fan of the season but that vid is fantastic. I loved the sequence of scenes showing Sam turning into Ezekiel.

   Reply

8. Thank you Gwen. I am glad you enjoyed the review. I really tried to capture the complexity of how disappointed I was, together with how [i]addicted[/i] I am to that episode!
   [quote]When I read recently that they cut the Sam/Dean’s death scene and that they gave us the take where Jared was the least emotional…well, I was just flabberghasted. Jensen said his shoulder was soaked with tears. I wanted to see those tears. I do love me some Sammy tears/angst [/quote]
   I was actually relieved to hear these quotes from Jensen’s Meet and Greet in Rome. I have been waiting to see multiple reports to get more points of view on what he said. If his comments are confirmed, though, I am actually relieved to hear them. There is no doubt that the Sam/Dean death scene was unbelievably powerful, BUT I was not completely convinced with Jared’s reaction. I absolutely love Jared, but after seeing “Croatoan”, and “Heart”, I knew and wanted to see the real grief that we’ve seen before. I think Jared gave that in prior or other takes. I am deeply disappointed in the directoral or editing choice that was made, if Jensen’s comments are true. Someone pointed out that Jeremy had to approve the final cuts, so I have to wonder why this was the best shot in everyone’s opinion. It seems Jared and Jensen expected a different choice.

   Reply

9. I’m sorry to say I’m extremely disappointed in the season. Hated the Angels, adored Gadreel, hated that Sam and Gadreel never interacted. HAted how every time there should have been focus on Sam/POV it gets cut, dropped or a lesser version is used. I have really having difficulty in seeing this show being about the brothers when Sam is continually being cut out of scenes, his POV not being show. especially when everyone .. even radom extra #3 gets monologues so we know where they stand/feel. But not SAm?

   I’m not invested in whatever happened between the brothers….because it happened because one was dying. Why is it the only time the boys are willing to talk to each other is when they are near death? And then they come back to life and then its back to lies, misunderstandings adn misperceptions and hit and run pot shots. And then we are suppossed to beleive they know each other so well? I’m sorry JAred, but that is not in any way a deep friendship.

   I do want Sam to save Dean. And then if the writers are still going to refuse to let them TALK, really talk like the adults they are supposed to be, I’d rather Carvewr split them up. Have them attack the next mytharc from differnt sides. Give Sam hsi own family (it dont end with blood which the writers seem to prefer that for Dean anyway) I would much prefer to see Sam talk and reveal his thoughts and feelings (and not be the designated damsel in distress) to and with others then watchi Dean adn Sam remain uncommunicative and distrustful of each other.
   In conclusion while i thought the acting was supurb all around…Carvers storyttelling and leadership has disillusioned me. My love for Sam and Deans’ brotherhood is hanging by a thread.

   Reply

10. Still haunted by the finale. Some scenes truncated, but the brevity of the words between the brothers drives home how they really are brothers and partners-no words are needed at this point in their journey. It may not have fed that piece of feels for all viewers, but the wordless parts of the script are often more powerful because there are no words. Jared’s and Jensen’s performances when they have no dialogue and the feels are in their faces are worth the lack of dialogue in sharp contrast to the emptiness of Metatron’s words. I thought Carver’s juxtaposition of spoken word and not spoken acting, include Misha and Tahmoh here, was purposeful and successful. As far as the rant against the Peoples’ Choice awards- I first took it the way you did as a fan slam, but after a re-watch or two… I feel that Carver is making a point to the PTB. Supernatural is the real deal. It has superb acting performances, fabulous sets, the lighting, especially in the confrontation btwn Dean and Metatron and the shot of Sam drinking in the shadows, and Crowley in the door way, as well as special effects and appropriate music. It is a high quality product which is recognized by the fans but ignored by those in charge of mainstream awards. The comment by Crowley about cynicism and belly crawlers and those people who live in Brentwood confirmed my interpretation. Many of the network power brokers live in Brentwood. Supernatural isn’t even promoted on other networks like the other CW shows. Heck, SPN is hardly promoted on the CW. Just think Carver is trying to say,”Hey, this is quality and the fans know it or they wouldn’t still be here. SPN is the real deal”. As to the scene where Sam’s eyes fill with tears as Dean crumples lifelessly, yep they used the take with the least amount of crying. Restraint was used to not overplay the emotions in the entire episode. For me, it made it more believable and less soapy. Sam internalizes. His stages of grief are palpable without being over played. His eyes are red so you can see he has been grieving, when we see him drinking and then summoning Crowley- anger stage. Again, purposeful choice to leave out the balling, wailing: it worked for me.

    Reply

    1. Hi Debbab, nice post! I would usually agree with you on the dialog, less is more for me. In this case though, because the deeper rifts and hurts have lingered so long now, it just would have been nice to get more than a couple of sentences for some clarity. The acting was incredible but even in the earlier seasons they had actual conversations sometimes instead of ‘conversation interruptus’ and soulful looks. The lack of promotion has bothered me this year. Yes it is an older show with a built-in audience but the other networks seem to give their older shows, the ones they can depend on, some love. There used to be an article or two every year in TV Guide. The last few years basically nothing. Many of the CW shows were represented in the finale issues, not a word about SPN. The CW promoted SPN very well the first couple of years under MP. I don’t understand it. Maybe Alice can explain it, she understands those things. I don’t understand what you said about CW shows being promoted on “other networks”. Are they? I don’t get many cable channels, maybe that’s why I don’t notice it.

       Reply

       1. As far as promotion TNT does a better job of promoting the reruns (especially their mini-marathons) than the CW does first run episodes. I guess since the show ended up being the #1 show on the network they don’t feel it needs promotion. However for new viewers who might not know the season finale has come and gone it would have been nice to see or hear at least one or two promos. I actually have seen the other CW shows promoted on some of the other channels but never SPN.

          Reply

       2. See now I am mad all over again. The mindless BRENTWOOD, California PTB are taking us for granted. Knowing we will be here COME RAIN OR COME SHINE.
          NCIS got its best ratings in year 7 or 8.
          I never did understand why SPN is not more well know. NEVER.

          Reply

11. Sam internalizes has become a get out clause . My issues with the season started long before the scene in the finale and the’ I lied’ line , I just think the brothers relationship need’s to be built on more than how far they are prepared to go for each other . Dean crossed a line at the begining of the season and rather than dealing with that they just airbrushed the line out and created the MOC for Dean. It has been a soured season for me that started with so much potential .

    Reply

12. I guess I feel better now about the finale but I haven’t watched it again and I can’t feel as happy about the brotherly stuff as I would want to because I don’t understand what Sam is saying. Would he or would he not have done the same thing as Dean did?

    Dean was so convinced Sam would rather die than let an angel in so Dean thought he couldn’t afford to be honest. I hope Sam would have more trust in Dean than that. Sam’s experiences when being possessed seem to indicate that he thinks people have the right to decide whether they want to be possessed or not. Thus Sam would tell his brother even if Sam was afraid Dean would not want to live if it came at a price like that.

    However, Sam might come to understand better where Dean was coming from, the confusion Dean had when he found out about Sam being ready to go with Death and heard Sam talking about how it’s going to be final. Maybe Sam is saying he also would have lost his head if he had been in Dean’s position. Perhaps this “I lied” thing is a preemptive strike so Sam can go all out when he tries to get Dean back.

    Reply

    1. i watched the finale again and again i took the ” i lied” as a response regarding the conversation at the trailer park. sam knew going in he had to do and say whatever it took to get dean to bring him with him. sam needed to be the one by his brother’s side, not crowley. sam knew he had to handle dean very carefully. so when dean went on about doing what he had to do no matter the consequences, sam ceded, telling dean…..”i know’. in my heart, knowing sam as well as i do, he had no intention of letting dean do whatever it took no matter the consequences…i just don’t think sam expected to get sucker punched. so when dean is dying and he tells sam …i thought you were ok with this, meaning he thought sam was ok with dean doing what he had to do no matter the consequences, sam admitted that he was indeed lying. he was never ok with any of it. he was simply appeasing his brother so dean would bring him with him. i believe if sam had been able to go with dean, things might not have gone down the way they did.

       but again, that’s the way i understood the conversation. but when all is said and done, no matter how you slice it….bottom line….sam was and never will be ok with his brother dying either physically or metaphorically. 😉

       Reply

       1. I just watched again as well and your right. Those last few minutes were so devastating that it was really hard to absorb everything. But you are right that was what Sam was referring to. And yes I hope we get a very angry Sam that will never be ok with Dean dying.

          Reply

       2. I think Sam was trying to respect Dean’s choice to go after Metatron because Sam had felt that Dean talked him out of finishing the trials and Sam had been mad about that. But he couldn’t just let Dean give up his life much like Dean didn’t think closing up Hell was worth the sacrifice of Sam’s life. And even if Dean was okay with dying after trying to kill Metatron, Sam wouldn’t be okay with that.

          [code type=”xml”] so when dean is dying and he tells sam …i thought you were ok with this, meaning he thought sam was ok with dean doing what he had to do no matter the consequences, sam admitted that he was indeed lying.[/code]

          [i]Sam: We’ll stop the bleeding. We’ll — we’ll get you a doctor or — or I’ll find a spell. You’re gonna be okay.
          Dean: Listen to me. It’s better this way.
          Sam: What?!
          Dean: The Mark. It’s making me into something I don’t want to be.
          Sam: Don’t worry about the Mark. We’ll figure out the Mark later. Just hold on, okay? Get you some help.
          Dean: What happened with you being okay with this?
          Sam: I lied.
          Dean: Ain’t that a bitch?[/i]

          Sam talking about spells, Dean saying “What happened with you being okay with this?“ and “Ain’t that a bitch?” after Sam says he lied makes me think that Dean was referring to their earlier discussion in 9.13 The Purge

          [i]Dean: All right, you want to be honest? If the situation were reversed and I was dying, you’d do the same thing.
          Sam: No, Dean. I wouldn’t. Same circumstances…I wouldn’t. I’m gonna get to bed.[/i]

          After all in 9.19 Dean saves Sam from bleeding out and says, “Yeah, I know. You wouldn’t have done the same for me.”

          Reply

          1. My interpretation was that Sam was referring back to that awful conversation in “The Purge”. I will consider the trailer park theory on my next rewatch.!

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             1. Hi Nightsky – I interpreted it as referring back to their earlier conversation at the trailer park, the one about Dean going after Metatron, regardless of the cost. But, it was left vague enough to be interpreted either way.

          2. yes dean does say that in 9.19, but here’s the thing. sam said he wouldn’t save dean had the same circumstances been reversed. sam would not have tricked dean into saying yes. he wouldn’t have lied to him about it for months. the reason I can see this being the truth is because it’s in fact happened already in the past. sam wanted to save dean in time is on my side. sam wanted dean and him to “take the magic pill” so that dean wouldn’t go to hell. dean refused. he flat out told sam he didn’t want to be saved that way. he didn’t want to be a monster. sam could’ve kept the book, but he buried it with doc Benton. sam wanted and was willing to use his powers to stop him from going to hell. dean told him no. he didn’t want sam to risk who he was. it broke sam in the end, but he abided his brothers wishes. we see it again in s8. sam believed his brother to be dead. yet he never tried to bring him back from the dead. sam had learned the hard way that one doesn’t mess with the natural order. sam imploded. he ran from hunting. he ran from his life, the life that took everyone he ever loved away from him, but at no time did sam ever try to bring anyone that he loved back from the dead. he accepted his loss and he tried to cope the best way he could. think how different the story would be if sam had gone against his brother’s wishes and did try to bring him back. sam may have possibly found out that dean wasn’t dead after all. maybe that’s how he would’ve eventually found out he was in purgatory and then would’ve figured a way to save him. I mean who knows. I kind of like the way the story’s been told. I like the human aspect of it. I like finally facing and dealing with the boys’ issues.
             damn, I went off track. what I was getting at was that when sam said he wouldn’t save him the same way, especially knowing that others would end up being killed and dean would’ve ended up being the monster he never wanted to be, no sam wouldn’t save him the same way and I still think that to be so. he said same circumstances. so I still don’t think he’d have gone against dean’s wishes because he never has before. but dean didn’t hear “same circumstances” in that conversation….he just heard sam say he wouldn’t save him. so when dean says to sam “you wouldn’t have done the same for me”, that statement is based on his own deluded belief that sam wouldn’t save him at all. this belief that stems from his own belief that he’s not worth saving. again, that monster inside dean, his inner demon, wreaking havoc.

             I have to say that i don’t think i agree that sam was trying to respect dean’s choice to go after metatron. I think, as sam is talking from experience, i think sam knew there was nothing he could say to stop dean from going after metatron. he knows the blade has changed his brother. he’s seen dean at work. sam understands that the only way to reach dean right now is to appease him. in all honesty, sam may have said I know to dean, but all along he totally planned on icing metatron himself. I’ve seen the back and forth conversation regarding sam’s comment and I have to say that I still believe that the conversation they had was referring to the talk at the trailer park. sam talked of doing a spell, taking dean to a doctor, he said those things because he doesn’t want his brother to die. he spoke of ways to keep dean alive until they can get rid of the mark and stop it’s effect. sam is not ok with this consequence, he is not ok with his brother dying at all….he was never ok with dean going at metatron with the blade…he in fact lied.

             I don’t know what sam will do to save dean next season. my feeling right now, sam isn’t going to make the same mistakes that were made in the past. he’ll do everything it takes to save dean. it’s just at the moment I can’t think of sam doing anything that would be the same as dean did to him that would make dean say…hah so you would do what I would do same circumstances. given what we know about sam, how much he’s learned and learned the hard way, I don’t see him saving dean by making deals at least, not when there could be another way. to me that’s more of a regression, and with sam, they’ve come so far, as they have with cas as well. I don’t know what sam will do, but whatever he does, I don’t think he’ll resort to methods that will just repeat the same cycle that for the last couple of years, carver seems to be trying to finally end.

             but hey everyone is going to see that conversation how they see it. I don’t really think there’s a right or wrong way to view that conversation because no matter how one views it we all seem to share the same conclusion….sam is not and never will be ok with dean dying. 😉

             Reply

             1. Maybe if Sam had been written for better the less the confusion and open interpretations that has gone on. I was one who never had a issue with what Sam said in the ‘Purge’ and ‘same circumstances’ was pretty clear but it depend’s I suppose on how the individual see’s the brothers relationship .

             2. I don’t know that it makes a difference does it which conversation he is referring to. I think the point that Jared wanted to make is that he was never ok with Dean dying. His comment at the convention (VegasCon?) was that he wanted to make clear the way he was playing that scene in the Purge was that he was hurt and angry and the words he used was to hurt Dean back. He wanted to make clear he didn’t mean that he was ok with Dean dying not ever. In fact at JIBcon he expressed his desire to be shown as more of a loving brother to Dean next season. And he desperately wants to be the one to save him. It will be interesting to hear what the guys have to say about their characters in upcoming conventions.

             3. But the writing should of done that for him not Jared having to worry whether the audience understood what Sam meant . I understood why he changed the line but the whole scenario from Dean’s decision to the possession to the resulting fallout in none of that did Sam matter , it was all about pushing Dean into another situation where a rash decision was made. In all honesty changing one line was not going undo 23 episodes of inept/indifferent writing for Sam .

             4. Amen Padaleski! This is exactly how I feel too. Sam’s POV is so vague as to be incomprehensible, so now they can just change it on a whim. What does it matter now if Sam was lying at the trailer park or if he was lying about the convo in The Purge? It doesn’t matter at all apparently because Sam was ineffectual, and too late as usual. The end result is that Sam looks like an asshole brother who was mean and contrary and saying hurtful things like a wronged five year old girl does (so much for “maturity”) and his argument against being possessed, about wanting to have control over his own life, and about not one single innocent life being more important than his or anyone else’s is completely moot… it means nothing as it’s been negated totally because Sam ‘lied’. Ugh. 🙁

             5. Dean was deeply shaken when Sam said he wouldn’t do the same thing if Dean was dying. It seemed like Sam thought that tricking Dean into letting an angel possess him is not about doing something _for Dean_. However, Dean equals spells and possession because it’s all the same to him; stopping death.

                I agree that “same circumstances” is crucial. However, now it seems like they are saying that

                9.13

                [i]Dean: All right, you want to be [b]honest[/b]? If the situation were reversed and I was dying, you’d do the same thing.
                Sam: No, Dean. I wouldn’t. Same circumstances…I wouldn’t. I’m gonna get to bed.[/i]

                9.23

                [i]Sam: We’ll stop the bleeding. We’ll — we’ll get you a doctor or — or I’ll find a spell. You’re gonna be okay.

                Dean: What happened with you being okay with this?
                Sam: [b]I lied[/b].[/i]

                meant that Sam had tried to claim that there are times when he would be okay with Dean dying – except he was lying. It seems like they are saying that Sam stating he wouldn’t get Dean possessed means he wouldn’t be as desperate to save Dean as Dean has been to save Sam which would mean Sam isn’t a real Winchester so he had to have been lying.

             6. I suppose that would be one way to look at it. My original take on the Purge convo was that Sam would never put Dean through being possessed to save his life. And maybe at the time being angry and hurt that is how he felt. But when faced with Dean actually dying and maybe being able to do something about it, in other words faced with the same dilemma as Dean he might make a different decision. Dean would also rather die than be brought back if it meant, like it does for Sam that innocents are going to get hurt. Sam knows that in his head but in his heart….well we will see what happens next season. The story is far from over especially the “rift” between the brothers. That hasn’t been resolved yet. But like I said it is all in your own perception of the show. I try to go with what the writers and actors are going for. It sounds like what Jared was going for in those scenes was of course he would never be ok with Dean dying and he will do everything in his power to save him. It worked for me, I know it didn’t for others.

             7. I also anticipate that Sam will go to great lengths to save Dean and Sam will probably do something that Dean wouldn’t want him to because it has a great risk of backfiring and causing Sam or others to get hurt just to get Dean back.

             8. Well in my own personal SPN universe Sam is going to pull out the Samulet and because it has a direct link to God he will be able to heal Dean in a blinding white light of heavens energy. Then it will disappear forever so Jensen never has to wear it again. No one dies, no one makes a deal, everyone lives to fight monsters and ghosts. The End.

             9. It would be awesome if anyone actually knew what it was that Dean didn’t want Sam to do because it changes every season. Going by this season, Dean wants/expects Sam to do everything so honestly, after the epic bitch fit Dean threw last season when Sam believed he was dead and so [i]didn’t[/i] try to bring him back, and the massive woobie fit he threw this season when he believed Sam [i]wouldn’t[/i] go to great lengths to bring him back, if Dean opens his mouth next season to complain about whatever it is that Sam [i]does[/i] go in order to bring him back, then I hope that Sam punches him squarely in the face, tells him to shut up and just walks away from him, and continues to do that every time Dean starts to complain.

             10. My take on season 8 is also that Dean might’ve thought he wouldn’t want Sam to even look for him because he wouldn’t want Sam to put himself or anyone else at risk but…

                 8.01

                 [i]Dean: After you looked for me. [Sam says nothing.] Did you look for me, Sam? [Sam looks away.] Good. That’s good. Now, we – we… always told each other not to look for each other. That’s smart. Good for you. Of course, we always ignored that because of our deep, abiding love for each another, but not this time, right, Sammy?[/i]

                 So when Sam said in The Purge that he wouldn’t do the same thing (trick Dean into letting an angel possess him) if Dean was dying, Dean took that to mean Sam would be okay with Dean dying.

                 My problem is that I don’t know what the show’s stance on this is. Does Sam still think that not tricking Dean means he is putting his brother first? Or is the message that desperate measures showcases better the kind of love they have for each other?

                 Quote from a report of Meet and Greets with Jared and Jensen:

                 [i]- Jared also shared our hopes of having more brotherly scenes in next season. The brothers hadn’t really been in sync for all S9. But now with the the big fight because of the Gadreel thing kind of over, maybe after the Demon!Dean storyline got resolved hopefully the brothers would be on the same page.[/i]

                 http://sinka.livejournal.com/23742.html

                 It’s not the most encouraging thing because it seems that the following discussion

                 [i]Dean: What happened with you being okay with this?
                 Sam: I lied.
                 Dean: Ain’t that a bitch?[/i]

                 is meant to be some sort of resolution to the whole argument about whether it’s right or wrong to get your brother possessed in order to stop him from dying.

             11. thanks for this link.
                 never seen this before.

             12. In that case, I’m really divided as to what I want to see next season. On one hand, I’d like to see Sam ensure that not a single person, plant or thing gets hurt as a result of his endeavors to bring Dean back because I really need there to be at least one Winchester who has a shred of moral integrity left, has the foresight to think about consequences and cares enough about other people to not put them in danger to get what he wants. On the other hand, I want to see Sam go absolutely baluba in whatever actions he undertakes. I’m talking shoving a couple of angels and demons in Dean, releasing Lucifer and Michael, busting open the door of Purgatory, deals being made left right and centre and maybe killing like, fifty virgins and dumping them on Dean’s bed (because, hey, memory foam, it’ll remember them) in some ritual to bring Dean back and transfer the MoC and its consequences onto himself.

                 The first scenario might ensure a little less hate comes JP’s way (because there are some out there who still hold the fact that he drained the possessed nurse in season 4 to try and save the whole world against him, so I doubt they’d look too favourably on him doing similar or worse to save one person). The second scenario will ensure that the next time Dean starts getting maudlin that Sam doesn’t love him enough, all he’ll need to do is look at the trail of bodies that Sam has left ‘for him’ and he’ll know better, because it seems this is what shows ‘love’ on this show these days, not trust, respect and free will, but death, violation and lies.

                 Re, the ‘resolution’, if it’s true that that really isn’t a surprise. When Sam is the injured party in a brotherly conflict, things get wrapped up very, very quickly. At least he got a whole line this season.

             13. [quote]In that case, I’m really divided as to what I want to see next season. On one hand, I’d like to see Sam ensure that not a single person, plant or thing gets hurt as a result of his endeavors to bring Dean back because I really need there to be at least one Winchester who has a shred of moral integrity left, has the foresight to think about consequences and cares enough about other people to not put them in danger to get what he wants. On the other hand, I want to see Sam go absolutely baluba in whatever actions he undertakes. I’m talking shoving a couple of angels and demons in Dean, releasing Lucifer and Michael, busting open the door of Purgatory, deals being made left right and centre and maybe killing like, fifty virgins and dumping them on Dean’s bed (because, hey, memory foam, it’ll remember them) in some ritual to bring Dean back and transfer the MoC and its consequences onto himself.

                 The first scenario might ensure a little less hate comes JP’s way (because there are some out there who still hold the fact that he drained the possessed nurse in season 4 to try and save the whole world against him, so I doubt they’d look too favourably on him doing similar or worse to save one person). The second scenario will ensure that the next time Dean starts getting maudlin that Sam doesn’t love him enough, all he’ll need to do is look at the trail of bodies that Sam has left ‘for him’ and he’ll know better, because it seems this is what shows ‘love’ on this show these days, not trust, respect and free will, but death, violation and lies.

                 Re, the ‘resolution’, if it’s true that that really isn’t a surprise. When Sam is the injured party in a brotherly conflict, things get wrapped up very, very quickly. At least he got a whole line this season.[/quote]Quoting the whole thing because it is perfect.

             14. 🙂 So I guess Carver getting his emotional maturity cues out of the Twilight book series ain’t cutting it for you?

             15. Tim, Dean wants opposite of what Sam does.

             16. I share your view of that talk in the purge. I think the point being focused on is deans misperception of what was said. He didn’t seem to hear same circumstances, he seemed to only hear that Sam would not save him. This is an important distinction because I think it allows the writers the ability to let Sam save dean without repeating the same cycle over and over on how he does it. I think that what’s important for dean to understand is that Sam would save him, something dean has convinced himself Sam would not do. Cheryl I don’t know how they will let Sam save dean, but I think the amulet would be a perfect way to do it. I highly recommend you put that suggestion in carvers suggestion box;)

             17. I hope you’re right nappi… I really do, because as I see it, since Dean does not hear “same circumstances” in the conversation about allowing possession, neither does anybody else including the fans, the TPTB and apparently the J’s. So even though Sam’s stance of honoring the sanctity of life is a good one, moral and right and honorable, it appears that he’s now reversing himself because somewhere along the way “same circumstances” became “never, ever under any circumstances bro, I’d just let you die cause I’m pissed right now and saying mean things, oh, and by the way, now that you actually are dying I lied,” and everyone has bought into the lie including Sam and Dean, which pretty much means Sam’s entire point this season, his moral code, his “no one life means any more than any other, not mine, not yours and not Kevin’s,” has been irrevocably lost. And since Dean was allowed to snark at Sam numerous times this season about “I don’t break that easy,” and “I know you wouldn’t do the same for me” passive aggressive crap that he’s always pulling, and Sam was never once allowed to say “I never said that Dean, I said I’d never force an angel into you against your will” the entire meaning of the interchange has been lost along with any balance whatsoever in the conflict. Sam was actually given a solid stance in The Purge, one that was right and moral and honorable, but it’s all ruined now by two little words, “I lied,” and so we are back to Dean being more committed than Sam; being the better brother than Sam and Sam once again gets to be wrong.

             18. Touche’

             19. And what makes it all the more annoying is that the original line is supposedly ‘I didn’t know this would happen’ which is actually WORSE.

                 Apparently the way Sam as a character is ‘developed’ at the moment has been pointed out to Jared. Hopefully while he is resting his poor shoulder (which I really hope isn’t seriously damaged) he might get some time to watch a few episodes in a row. Maybe see particularly how much being possessed is shown to affect Sam as a person and how little moral support Sam got from the other characters on the show.
                 Sam is one of a very small number of people whose inability to tell reality from flashbacks is based on the fact that he spent a long time in Hell. The person who was his ‘stone number one’ failed in that duty for a long period of time. Being ‘punished’ for that by being turned into a demon is a lot less satisfying to me than a genuine conversation between the brothers and acceptance, understanding and an apology from that person would have been.

                 I don’t get the feeling that Sam is angry that Dean saved his life. I think he ought to be angry about everything that happened since. I don’t know if the show has even considered that? And he didn’t ought to be the one who is currently taking personal responsibility for Kevin’s death. Which is the only part of the whole thing that still gets discussed, with Sam saying he feels his hands killing Kevin and Dean trying to kill both Metatron and Gadreel because he blames them for his death. Well Sam had NOTHING to do with Kevin’s death.

                 I sort of wonder if the show is saying, ‘If you accept everyone else’s interpretation (except the victim/recipient) that anything you want to do is ok (and you did the right thing) as long as it is because you love too well … instead of listening to your own conscience which is telling you it isn’t ok …. then you will eventually turn into a demon’?

                 Honestly I don’t think it is, I think it is actually saying … well actually I don’t really know what the moral of this season is if it isn’t ‘having people possessed is wrong’. Perhaps there is no moral to this season.

                 It is very likely it is saying ‘Dean as a demon would be cool plot twist’.

                 Which it is.

             20. I get all the different meanings Except the new line’ ”I didn’t think this would happen.”
                 I really don’t want to hear that, maybe that’s why it was changed. Yes eilf that’s WORSE.

             21. I think this might also be a meet and greet story – in which case there is no official backup for it. But if it is true then why is it Jared who is having to write the line his character’s story arc for the season turns on?

                 It seems to be true that a good deal of time and thought was put into Castiel’s heaven (which was then vetoed by everyone else) by some bored writers, maybe they need to focus on stuff that is less stupid than that?

13. to SanSummer1 and ALL

    This, I think is a little of what NAPPI is meaning about the big grand plan. [sorry have not read all]
    ‘I LIED’ can be taken so many ways, I have found out.

    reach me if you care to at NOLANOLA9 on twitter. it’s just for WFB, us 😉

    Reply

    1. Hmm… I couldn’t find you but maybe we can talk here 🙂

       I guess what adds to the confusion is that the line was changed from what Carver had originally meant for Sam to say. It seems like Jared wanted to bring some sort of resolution to the brothers’ fighting that reached far back to the possession. Probably even the writers and the actors and the showrunners don’t agree on what Sam’s point is right now!

       Reply

       1. Where did you read/hear that Jared changed Sam’s line?I actually thought it was too coincidental that his line was exactly what Jared has been saying at cons for months!

          Reply

          1. Apparently Jared told at JIBcon that the original line was “I didn’t think this was gonna happen,” but he changed it to “I lied.” I haven’t looked for a video of it but I’m sure it’s out there.

             It makes me think that Jared was upset by the heat Sam was getting due to episodes like The Purge so he felt he need to make a statement on Sam’s behalf.

             However, I’m getting confused by all this because Sam saying he lied about being okay with Dean dying should not be big enough revelation worthy of a deathbed confession. I didn’t think Sam was implying that he’d be okay with Dean dying just because he said he wouldn’t have done the same thing that Dean did but now it seems like that’s what Sam was saying except he was lying to hurt Dean or something like that. It makes the whole argument for or against possession seem pretty pointless and more of a device to make Dean not care about living or dying because if his brother doesn’t care then Dean doesn’t have anything to lose etc.

             Reply

             1. Maybe someone at a future convention will ask Jared to clarify what he meant. I really think the bottom line is Sam was never ok with Dean dying regardless of which conversation he was referring to. I think that is what Jared wanted to convey.

             2. I guess I resent how the conclusion for Sam this season is that Sam would not be okay with Dean dying. Pretty sad how low the bar is now. Shouldn’t it be obvious that Sam would do anything to save Dean?

                I originally thought Sam was trying to draw a line and say that possession is a plan he would’ve ran through Dean, he would’ve given Dean the chance to decide for himself because Dean and everyone else deserves that.

                Now it seems like Sam’s journey was about him first pretending that he is “mature” enough to let Dean go because Sam wanted to get back at Dean or something like that only to reveal in the finale that he isn’t okay with Dean dying. Frankly that is a pretty weak story.

             3. where are you getting this……from others comments…..
                I think he meant what he said. same circumstances…NO
                he loves him but ANYTHING / EVERYTHING is not acceptable.

             4. I’ve gotten the impression that Jared meant Sam was lying when he said all those things to Dean in The Purge. Maybe Sam talking about finding a spell and then calling Crowley is meant to convey that Sam might also do things that his brother wouldn’t want him to do despite how Dean had said before his death, “Listen to me. It’s better this way.”

             5. understood.

             6. I agree with this… no matter what Sam’s line was supposed to be, “I didn’t think this was going to happen,” or “I lied” Sam’s entire POV (what teeny, tiny, insignificant little bits of it that we’ve been given) has been negated; the effects of his possession have been negated, he’s been made to be wrong in his thinking, proven wrong in his words and deeds once again. It’s The Mentalists all over again, only now on a three year scale instead of in just one episode. Sam has asserted that he has a respect for life, that he doesn’t value any one life over any other life; he’s asserted that there are lines that he won’t cross when it comes to someone else’s autonomy, that he has a basic respect for life and now all of that has been stripped away in one small scene containing exactly two words. The context for these words is not explained in the slightest, so now Sam not only looks like a dick, a bad brother and a liar, but he also looks like he’s gone back on everything that he supposedly lives by; his code of ethics, which to me have been strong, moral and RIGHT are now shown to be WRONG. Again.. always.

             7. Exactly!

                I thought there could’ve been value in what Sam was saying. If the situation were reversed, Sam would’ve accepted that the decision was out of his hands. He would’ve let Dean know what was happening. Now, however, it seems that it would have been too rational or something so Sam had been lying. It’s like the show is saying that Dean tricking his brother into letting an angel possess him demonstrates such level of desperation that if it isn’t matched, it means Sam doesn’t love his brother as much.

                I’m okay with Sam doing crazy things to get Dean back because a character willing to do anything for his brother is appealing. However, if Sam will pretty easily do something despite believing that Dean would rather stay dead than come back at a price like that then seasons 8 and 9 will seem even more pointless and cast even more doubt over why Sam didn’t look for Dean etc.

             8. Sorry E this conversation is getting to me. I have no idea why the actors, writers, showrunners do any thing that they do. Evidently everyone was on board with Jared changing the line. Jared had reasons that he may or may not explain. We will have to wait and see.

             9. E – I think a lot of this is going to depend on how the Demon Dean storyline, and Sam’s reaction to it, plays out at the beginning of S10. If they go the route that Sam will do anything, consequences be damned, to save Dean, that will be very disappointing. If, on the other hand, Sam is willing to risk just his life, and his alone, to save Dean, that would be ok. I’m also curious to see how they approach the Demon Dean storyline – whether it was Dean’s soul that turned in to a demon, or whether it’s more of a Mark of Cain possession scenario.

                I didn’t take the “I lied” line to mean what many other thought it to mean, but can certainly understand the different interpretations given the lack of Sam’s POV in S9.

             10. i don’t think i can agree with this way of thinking as i don’t think the i lied comment referred to anything else but the talk at the trailer park. for me it, after a few watches now, the result is the same no matter what line jared used….sam was not really ok with dean going after metatron no matter the consequences. whether he said i didn’t think this was going to happen or i lied…both sentiments fit with sam’s true feeling…that he was never ok with his brother dying.

                 that being said, i don’t think the possession story has been belittled as i still don’t think it’s over. now dean will learn why it is that sam is so against possession for any reason. as cheryl said a few times now, this lesson has not yet been learned but it’s one that dean must come to understand. i believe s10 will give us this. i also think that s10 will be the season of the boys finally talking and understanding where the other is coming from. it will be the season of change.

                 just one more thing as i have to run…sam is very upset with the possession for all the reasons we’ve stated and he is right to be. but from what i’ve understood from sam both in thinman and again in the finale, what sam is truly hurt by isn’t the possession, as that sam could understand. what he’s hurt and angry about are the lies. sam would be angry at the possession no matter what. he would’ve reamed dean for it, but he also would understand why dean did it. he would forgive dean for it. what upset sam was dean lying to him for months and months. if dean had confessed what he’d done before kevin had died by sam’s hands, sam would’ve been angry yes, but i don’t think he would feel as though they were broken. i think sam killing kevin has exacerbated his hurt. if dean had just trusted in sam and told him. if dean hadn’t lied …sam said it…lies ruin relationships…if dean had told sam the truth when sam started to think he was going crazy…sam would’ve most certainly been able to forgive dean a hell of a lot sooner. but because of the lies, because dean wasn’t honest with sam, gad killed kevin and now sam suffers because of it. sam continues to have nightmares of kevin dying by his hands…and this could have been prevented …if dean had just told sam the truth.

                 the way i see it, yes sam is pissed at dean for the possession …but what hurts him more….the lies. that’s what sam is having a bit of hard time forgiving at the moment…and it’s his guilt over kevin that is currently preventing him from letting it go…..but not for one second did sam stop loving his brother and not for one minute did he want anything bad to happen to dean…all sam wanted from his brother was for him to join him in the fight for their brotherhood.

             11. Yes, yes….a thousand times yes. Even on the bridge as Dean was walking away Sam said “don’t go thinking that’s the problem cause it’s not”. I always thought that is what he meant. It wasn’t the possession it was the lies. That has always been Sam’s problem (and Dean’s as well) is the lies. This is what the writers were going for. It was what Jared was going for. Unfortunately it wasn’t what some fans wanted to see. The story isn’t over yet. Let’s wait and see where it goes.

             12. [quote]now dean will learn why it is that sam is so against possession for any reason. as cheryl said a few times now, this lesson has not yet been learned but it’s one that dean must come to understand. i believe s10 will give us this.[/quote]
                 Do you really think Dean will understand what it is like to be possessed? Technically he isn’t possessed. He [i]became[/i] a demon rather than being possessed by one, so I’m not sure he will understand what it is like to be helpless inside a body controlled by someone/something else.

             13. dean will become the very thing he never wanted to become. what he’s always feared himself to be. he will no longer be dean. he will no longer have control. it might not be technically the same, but I think the result will be the same. as with being possessed, he will no longer have agency of his own body. he will commit acts he would never have commited otherwise. he will become something supernatural, something not human, which is basically what sam has been fighting against all his life. so like Cheryl, I do think dean will come to understand why sam is so against possession. 😉

             14. I’m really not a fan of this whole idea that Dean has to experience something to be able to understand it and understand why others are so against it. A person doesn’t have to be beaten up or murdered to know that they don’t want to be beaten up or murdered, to know that beating up someone or murdering them is wrong. If Dean needs to be possessed to understand why Sam is against being possessed (as if Dean has forgotten about the other two times Sam was possessed), then it shows that Dean has zero empathy, and things are only important or relevant when they happen to him, and not to others.

                 Add to that, the Winchesters have been dealing with the consequences of those who are possessed since season one. They know it’s not a trivial matter. They’ve experienced first hand what being possessed is about, some more directly that others. Yes, Sam has experienced direct possession a few times now, but in [i]Slumber Party[/i], Dean was not in control of his actions for a time, nor was he entirely in control in [i]Live Free and Twihard[/i] so he knows what it is like to not be in control of his body.

                 I also don’t think the lies are the issue. The Winchesters have been communicating in lies since season 2 (hell, they’ve been communicating in lies since Sam was first able to ask questions), and they’ll continue to communicate in lies for as long as the show is on the air. I think the inequality is more of the issue, and hopefully that is something that will be addressed in season 10. Going all the way back to season one it’s been a case of ‘Do as I say and not as I do’ with Dean. We saw this when Sam didn’t tell Jess about the supernatural because it was rule number one, when Dean told Cassie all about it despite him being the one to enforce the rule to Sam. We saw it all the way through when Dean made deals but others were not to, when Dean would go to great lengths that others were prohibited from. Last season we saw it when Dean wanted to do the trials so that he could die closing the gates of hell and so Sam could like his ‘normal’ life. However, when Sam was going to be the one who died closing the gates of hell then the trials were stopped. This creates a problem for them both as hunters and as men. How can they be hunters when they continuously put what they want before the welfare of others and how can they be men if they are not prepared to sacrifice or even risk? It was discussed last season, both feet in or both feet out. At the moment they have neither.

             15. hear, hear, TIM.
                 Having Dean possessed as a PUNISHMENT is HARSH to say the least.
                 I DID say so, earlier.
                 JMO

             16. That’s the $64,000 question isn’t it? What opened it’s eyes at the end of the episode. It sure didn’t look like Dean. So is he going to be like Cain where he knows who he is but became something else? How long did it take before Cain fell in love with Collette? That seems to be the point where he started killing the Knights of Hell after trying to reclaim some humanity. If this is a parallel to the DB story Sam became the very thing that he was always afraid of. So now Dean has become the very thing he was always afraid he was. A killer. But in Dean’s case Dean died. So I go back to my original question…what happened to Dean’s soul. It wasn’t twisted by 100’s of years in hell into a demon. Is it like Cain who made a deal in order to save his brother but who’s soul seemed to be intact (he did feel sorrow, love, remorse)? Is he some new creature that Crowley can mold into whatever he wants? I think it just depends on what is left of Dean.
                 It seems to boil down to good intentions and consequences. Dean’s only thought was to save Sam, he knew it was wrong, but always the mission for Dean is to save Sam. He wasn’t trying to hurt Sam. He knew that Sam would be pissed but he also knew that Sam would eventually forgive him. And of course it all went to holy hell. But he never set out to hurt Sam. And I have to disagree with Tim here it has always been about the lies all the way back to Bloody Mary (that I just re-watched last night). They have always resented the secrets and the lies between them. The lies tended to get worse as the series continued and the consequences of the lies sometimes had global implications. That is what Sam is the most upset about IMHO. And I think that is what Jared was trying to say at the convention.
                 Since Dean’s dying words were that he would rather die than become something he never wanted to be I feel that is where the story is going. Sam is going to be faced with the same dilemma as Dean (once he finds out what the hell just happened). Are his choices going to be any different than Dean’s. If we go by what Sam said when he was summoning Crowley it sounded like he was going to force Crowley to reverse what he had done to Dean. Not necessarily making a deal just violently coercing Crowley to save his brother. They seem to be walking in each others shoes. Could be wrong…we will have to see.

             17. I think as I watch s9 again along with the prior seasons..my feeling stands that this is about the human story of sam and dean and them facing their own monster…that lack of self worth which has influenced most of their actions throughout the series. believing that as I do, I think the real lesson for dean isn’t so much what he did to sam as much as it is understanding why he did it, and why he repeatedly does them. and I will say that the do as I do attitude, dean’s hypocrisy, his lying to sam, I believe part of all this behavior not all, but part of it ties into his own issue of self loathing and his innate fear that everyone leaves him because he’s not good for much of anything but killing anyway. I think these issues stem all the way back to his childhood, as most issues do.
                 yed told dean all the way back in devil’s trap that “he needed them more than they needed you”. yed may have been taunting dean, but I think he was taunting dean with a variation of the truth. dean needs sam in a way that is slightly different then sam needs dean. I still think that dean doesn’t trust in himself. I still believe he deflects his anger and his feeling towards himself onto sam. this was blatant in s8, but also demonstrated in prior seasons. dean has admitted more than once that he doesn’t want to be alone. he’s admitted more than once how he believes himself nothing more than a killer, someone you wouldn’t want at your dinner table. but given all of his self loathing, dean does have his moments when he’s proud. when he believes himself to be good. yes he needs to be a hero and hunting helps, but you know what else helps him feel heroic, feel worth, feel like meaningful? sam. having sam with him gives dean more than purpose, he’s said it, taking care of sam is part of who he is and it’s the good part of who he is. so when dean seemingly makes this giant sacrifice in bad boys, by leaving that house and going back with his father and his brother, I don’t believe he’s sacrificed anything that he didn’t truly want to give up…because when his little brother shows up and dean gives that big grin, we see the truth, or I see the truth, and that is dean’s happiness, his true sense of self, the part of him that does feel good in that mess of self loathing his swims in, all of that comes from his brother and the way dean feels about him, but more important, the way sam makes dean feel about himself.
                 so I don’t know that the lesson for dean is about possession, although I hope it’s something he comes to figure out for himself. I think the true value of all of this, of dean becoming the very monster he feared to become and thus overcoming it will give dean a sense of self worth on who he actually is. that self worth and lack of trust in himself which influenced his behavior. and I hope that by sam saving him as I know he will, dean will also come to understand that sam loves dean just as much as he loves him, and has always seen dean as someone who is valuable, not only to this world but to sam. with that I also hope that sam will come to understand his value and that it was never that dean didn’t trust in sam or ever saw sam as a failure…but that it was how he actually saw himself. sam is the one person he values more than anyone and loves and trusts more than anyway….all this doesn’t have to be said in a grand speech, but my hope is that in a few words the boys will come to understand how much they truly mean to ea. other. and these personal issues will be laid to rest. new relationship..stronger one..equal one…back to smiles and monster hunting for us all. 😉

             18. Nappi you have summed up the crux of the issues very nicely. If JC manages to pull this off my feelings about these last two seasons and next season could be altered dramatically. If this is his 3 year plan, much will be forgiven by me. Especially, if next year, Sam’s actions drive the story and he ends up being Dean’s road back to humanity. I very much agree with this part of your post and am hopeful this is where it all leads:

                 “dean will also come to understand that sam loves dean just as much as he loves him, and has always seen dean as someone who is valuable, not only to this world but to sam. with that I also hope that sam will come to understand his value and that it was never that dean didn’t trust in sam or ever saw sam as a failure…but that it was how he actually saw himself. sam is the one person he values more than anyone and loves and trusts more than anyway….all this doesn’t have to be said in a grand speech, but my hope is that in a few words the boys will come to understand how much they truly mean to ea. other. and these personal issues will be laid to rest. new relationship..stronger one..equal one…back to smiles and monster hunting for us all.”

                 🙂

             19. [quote] he will no longer be dean.[/quote]He is still Dean but twisted by MoC into whatever he is.Kind of like the monster who killed Travis.

             20. OMG, I don’t remember who Travis is. smh

             21. Travis was the hunter who was after the Rugaru in S4 the name of the ep escapes me at the moment.

             22. thanks sweetheart. HA. the older gent. YES

             23. I think this is all going to depend on which way Carver goes with this. Whether Dean’s soul turned in to a demon, or whether it’s more a possession thing, where the Mark of Cain is possessing Dean.

             24. EILF, where are you,
                 NJSPNFAN I saw some of JIBCON5 and JENSEN said Dean is dead.
                 They die more than any other people……ASHE said.
                 So DEAN is not possessed but if fact a demon and I dare say THEE KNIGHT OF HELL.
                 IMO
                 yes we must see where the ”WRITERS” go with THE REST OF THE STORY 😀

             25. True but dead people can be possessed too in which case Dean is just a meat suit….. I agree with your take on it but there are a couple of ways they can go with this.

             26. Metamorphosis

             27. Thank you….195 episodes and all 🙂

             28. I don’t believe that Dean won’t be Dean, I think he WILL be Dean, just turned fully into his own more dark self with all of the good having been stripped away. The problem that I have with the whole scenario is that if this is supposed to be some kind of lesson for Dean regarding Sam and possession and what that’s like, Dean can’t really learn anything about that in the state that he’s in. Unless there is some kind of huge canon reversal that’s about to be introduced, Dean IS a demon, not possessed by one, which means any bad act will be perpetrated by Dean and he won’t care about it effects and he won’t be able to learn anything until it’s all over, if even then. It wouldn’t (or shouldn’t if this show manages to follow it’s own canon) be like he was possessed and watching himself do things against his will. He should be deciding to do the bad acts on his own and from his newly corrupted soul, and hopefully will be reveling in them, enjoying them and not care one bit that they are wrong and that they hurt other people. It’s not like what Sam has gone through with Meg, Lucifer and Gadreel AT ALL. Sam was possessed, Dean is changed. Have we actually ever seen a demon that still in it’s own original body before? Usually a demon has to be in hell for centuries before they actually get to demon status and since their mortal bodies are long gone, the use of a host makes perfect sense; so where does that leave Dean? Cain may be the only one we’ve seen whose possibly still in the body that he used originally (although that wasn’t exactly clear), and quite frankly, he wasn’t acting like much of a demon, so I am not sure how they will end up explaining things in a way that makes sense. What I don’t want is an introspective, compassionate, tortured, “please save me from myself” maudlin demon Dean who agonizes over every little thing he does that’s evil. I want an off the rails bat-shit crazy, we’ve never seen this level of evil before Dean that is unpredictable and reveling in his evilness; like Abbadon, like Zachriah, like Yellow Eyes, like Lucifer only worse cause it’s Dean and he knows everything about what’s left of Team Free Will. I’d like the MoC to have made Dean into SUPER DEMON, someone so out of control that it forces Crowley to seek help from Sam because he finds he’s completely out of his depth. I want Crowley to be season 10’s Dr. Frankenstein, having created a monster that he can’t control, that turns on him and is now running amok. Now that would be exciting and a peculiar and interesting turn of events. Strange bedfellows and all that. Also a story like that could justify Mark Sheppard’s status as series regular. What do you think the chances are that TPTB will have the guts to go in that direction? Generally, they have never been that experimental or edgy with Dean; always being careful to make sure he’s shown in a sympathetic light. I hope that they have the cajones to GO THERE.

             29. I agree. I think dean needs to be the worst he can be. i think there’s a more important lesson for dean to learn here. i think carver is trying to get at the heart of these boys issues. face them and then conquer them. i agree that dean needs to understand why possession is something sam just cannot accept, due to sam’s past history. as sam has never really had much control in his life, even when he seemingly had control, he didn’t . he was always being manipulated. possession is just yet another form of control, even if it’s to save his life. but the real issue at hand here is not what dean did, but why. dean needs to face himself and conquer his issues, which i believe are lack of self worth and lack of trust in himself. he sees himself a killer and that’s pretty much all he’s really good for. dean living through an experience such as this. becoming the most vile of all things. becoming the monster he feared himself to be….then to come back from that, and not just come back from that but come back as a result of sam saving him. i just think that maybe dean might come to see that perhaps he wasn’t as bad as he thought himself to be. if he has the strength to beat the devil(demon) that is himself, then maybe dean can start to see himself in a more positive light. if sam is the one who save him, maybe he will finally come to understand that sam has always seen dean as worthy and valuable and never saw him as a killer, but as a hero. once dean can rid himself of these issues, and trust in himself, maybe he can admit to sam that it was never that he didn’t trust in sam, but it was that he couldn’t trust in himself. my hope then is that sam will start to see the worth in himself that his brother does in fact trust in him and always has. we can be rid of a decade of unresolved issues and the brother’s new relationship can be based on understanding and equality and honesty. goodbye to the old relationship of two boys who always misperceived ea. other and hello to a new brotherly bond of the men that these boys have become.

                 but i agree e, that it all starts with a dean who needs to be downright diabolical. i want sam and Crowley to have to find a way to work together to stop dean because i think it would bring a bit of levity to this very dark situation. dean and Crowley have humorous moments, but i find sam and Crowley more entertaining. i think it’s because from the moment sam met Crowley, he’s been trying to kill him. i find their antagonistic relationship quite funny and i think we might need a little funny going into next season’s storyline. 🙂

             30. Yeah. Sam trying to work with Crowley and not kill him and Cas trying to run interference in his awkward angel way might be pretty cool. Strange bedfellows indeed!:p

14. Maybe Dean will be a version of Souless Sam. Acting without remorse but when he is restored with all of the memories of doing unspeakable things. And not just to demons in hell but to innocent humans. Sam has had to experience that being possessed and being without a soul and in both instances it tore him apart. I think that Dean is going to go full on demon bad. TPTB aren’t going to back away from that, not with the story set up like it is. Cain was the first murderer, the father of evil. I am assuming that it took thousands of years for him to regain some form of humanity. In Dean’s case (unlike with Cain who had to fight his way back to humanity of sorts alone) there is going to be a freaked out brother and a pissed off angel fighting for his life. I am very curious to see how they get Dean out of this mess.

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15. Hi everybody! I have been away all day at a birthday party and it is late, so I will catch up with you all tomorrow! Feel free to have it all figured out by then!

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16. my hope is that when dean gets back to dean again, these boys do have the talk that they so desperately need to have and we all desperately need to hear….and my hope is that all of our questions will be answered….;)

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    1. Yes 🙂

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17. I drew the conclusion that Sam calling Crowley and saying “you will get him out of this” meant that Sam intended to bring Dean back AND reverse the effects of the Mark of Cain. He heard Dean say that the mark was turning him into something he didn’t want to be, but if Sam can work with Crowley to get rid of the mark, then Dean’s concern is addressed. So Sam would not be ignoring Dean’s wishes. He would be saving Dean from the Mark of Cain. Sam is assuming that Dean would be happy to be alive IF he can return to normal, so Sam knows he has to figure out how to do [i]both[/i] things. Hence, “you got him into this, you will [i]get him out[/i] [of this MoC mess]”. Sam did NOT say, “you will bring him back”. That is the key difference I think.

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18. That was my impression as well. It looked like Sam was going to beat Crowley to “death?” if he didn’t reverse what he had done.

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19. Thanks for this Nightsky. I fall in the clan of the ones that loved it, but I appreciate reading what everyone has to say, because it brings an even clearer understanding. On the boys having a real heart to heart, the show needs to bring back Sera Gamble. She wrote some of the best brotherly dialogue.

    [quote] Lastly, I hated that Metatron made fun of the People’s Choice Awards: “Like winning a People’s Choice Award? Not quite the real deal now is it?” While that may be true, that makes four weeks in a row that the writers have ridiculed fans in one way or another. I thought the comment was insensitive and ungrateful for the massive effort fandom exerts to get the show whatever accolades we can influence. So now these awards mean nothing to Jared, Jensen or the show’s producers? Thanks for letting us know so we don’t waste thousands of hours next November. If, however, this was Jeremy’s political commentary that the show continues to be ignored by main stream critics and media, I sympathize completely with his frustration.
    [/quote] I happen to agree with you on this one. I thought it was a little mean spirited. I know TPCA aren’t great, but hey, at least they acknowledge SPN & the people involved, something the Emmys of the Globes will never do, to their own detriment IMHO. 😉

    I’ll be looking forward to your threads for the season.

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20. I had a theory i wanted to see what you guys thought about Crowley. I know show claimed Crolwy and Abbaddon were fighting over being the ruler of Hell. BUT what if Crowly is our master puppet master and Abaddon was a Crolwy loyalist? Think about it. We never really saw Abaddon do anything. Demons claimed she did this that or the other. But Abbaddon mostly when on screen sprouted virteral and then the episdoe where she died she sat around with Crowly and then barely defended herself.

    What if – if they are making comparisons to Season 4 – Crowly and Abaddon are in the Lilith/Ruby roles but with a twist. Ruby was loyal to Lilith and no other demon knew she was playing a con. This is Abbaddon. Lilith was loyal to Lucifer and was carrying out his plan. Crowly – though he could also be in the Lucifer role as well (or he’s secretly Lucifer? Or maybe Micheal – either would want revenge). The part thazt makes Deans arc seperate from Sams is Sam killing Lilith caused Lucifer to rise. Obviously killing ABddon didn’t raise anyone….but maybe it was supposed to the turning point where Dean gave in completely to the MArk. Or….he would kill himself after to the MArk could turn him. But Sam kept interferring….reaching Dean.

    So they changed the plan……Dean needed to die to becime a demon or a Night of Hell. Crolwy gambled that killing Dean would do the job. Enter Metranon. Metranon is basically nebbish Zachariah….but still…Angels and Demons working together again. Think about it. Metranon once claimed he wouldn’t accept stupid Angels. But he seemed to have plentry of stupid on his payroll…especially that one Angel Sam and Dean interrogated.

    This would explain why Metranon is still alive. He and Crolwy expected Gadreel to turn on them, go to Sam and Dean and Dean go all Mark of Cain. They needed Dean to be seperated from Sam…to be so charged up with desire to kill metranon. Deans suicide was perferable but Metranon killing Dean was their back up.

    Question is….is Crowley now in the Lucifer role or the Lilith role….is he working for someone else? (micheal? Lucifer?) And why does he need/want Dean to be a demon? NAd since time is relative in Hell…would Deans prior time in Hell count toward hsi demonness? Or maybe Deans time in purgatopry was grooming him for this> What does Crolwy want a demon dean to do? And does Crowly see Sam as a threat or does he expect Sam to simply lay down and die (figuratively). Did he see Sam’s actions in s8 as a percurser to how he would act now?

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    1. I hope to Chuck, there is some MASTER PLAN because I have a hard time with some of this.

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21. Hello Nightsky, thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings. I loved the finale, and my opinion hasn’t changed since I first saw it.
    The lack of a talk between the brothers in this episode didn’t bother me. As much as I loved the moments in “Swan Song”, “The Point Of No Return”, “The Great Escapist” and “Sacrifice” you mentioned, I think they belonged in “Swan Song”, “The Point Of No Return”, “The Great Escapist” and “Sacrifice”. In this episode, the context was different. Both brothers had hurt each other, and in Sam’s case had said a lot of things that hurt. I took “I lied” to apply to both the conversation in the trailer park and the conversation in “The Purge”. Sam would never in any way, shape or form “be OK” with Dean dying, but that’s what Dean thought. Sam had lashed out and used words to hurt, so it made sense to me that he would use his actions to try to heal. In this episode, Sam acted like a brother. Despite his misgivings, he stood by Dean the way Dean stood by him in “Swan Song”. I found the use of “I know” appropriate, because Sam does know. As he once said himself, he knows Dean better than anyone else in the entire world and doesn’t need long explanations to understand how Dean feels and where he is coming from. I like that Sam remembered that. For me, the moments between the brothers and the shorthand they used worked well. I loved Dean’s “I’m proud of us” because that’s what Dean always wanted to hear and John never said. It really was a gift, both to himself and Sam. Maybe the brothers will have the conversation you hoped for next season, if only to get Dean in touch with his humanity.
    In this episode, we had a complete role reversal between the brothers: this time, Dean was the one who chose to die rather than change into something he didn’t want to be and is now forced to live his worst nightmare. Sam was the one who had to let his brother go on an extremely dangerous mission and watch him die. Now Sam has to save Dean or kill him, since Dean would never want to live as a demon. I also have a feeling that Demon!Dean would be too dangerous to be left running around. Maybe Sam will find himself in a similar position to Dean’s in “Appointment in Samarra”.
    I never thought that Metatron’s comment about the People’s Choice Awards was meant to be disparaging of Supernatural fans. I didn’t even see it as reflecting the personal opinions of Jeremy Carver. I thought it was a reference supposed to show that Metatron disregards his loyal followers and only wants to boost his ego.
    I was very happy with Gadreel’s exit. His story ended exactly the way I hoped it would: he redeemed himself and had the chance to be a hero by rediscovering his purpose. His final moments were beautifully done.
    One of my favorite aspects in this episode was Crowley. Mark Sheppard is a great actor and Crowley is a wonderful character. I really look forward to seeing more of Crowley next season since I’m convinced there is more to him than meets the eye.
    The scene with Crowley in Dean’s room seemed like a creepy version of the final scene in “All Hell Breaks Loose part I”. I think the creepiness comes from the fact that Crowley’s reaction to Dean’s death isn’t grief, but anticipation. There is also a discrepancy between the distance Crowley keeps to Dean’s body and the very personal things he says. In AHLBL I, Dean sat very close to Sam’s face, as if Sam might hear him, which added the emotional impact of the scene. In this episode, it feels like Crowley is aware of intruding and saying things Dean wouldn’t want to hear. In hindsight, it seems like Crowley has gotten envious of Sam and Dean’s relationship and has been trying to manufacture himself a brother. Crowley’s speech also showed what a great salesman he is. He might even be able to sell demonhood to demon-hating Dean by using the one thing Dean always wanted and never dared to hope for: freedom. Dean has always felt the weight of his duties and of the guilt he carries, so he could be tempted to “bugger off and howl at the moon”.
    I’m really looking forward to season 10.

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    1. Liked your intake a lot Cat. It was very refreshing. 🙂

       Can’t wait for season 10 either.

       – Lilah Kane

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22. Very nicely said and very well put. 🙂

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23. I’m responding to Debbab comment from Oct 31st. I couldn’t find it but its still in my inbox.

    debbab – Posted on Saturday, May 31 2014 10:41:13am
    Still haunted by the finale. Some scenes truncated, but the brevity of the words between the brothers drives home how they really are brothers and partners-no words are needed at this point in their journey.

    I don’t think this makes any sense. Like at all. Why is it for 30 seconds in the last episode they need no words when the brothers spenjt the last 22 episodes unable to understand te other ….which caused lies, deceit, manipulation, distrust and as we all know…this year for Dean to think Sam didn’t love him and becoming a demon was perferable. So….i dont think the boys are in any place to NOT communicate with out words.

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    1. I have asked you before to explain how did dean not having a talk with his brother MEAN her PREFERRED to become a demon….

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