Sneak Peek for Supernatural 10.21
We have a sneak peek for Wednesday’s episode.
There’s only one chance to save Dean. Will Charlie be the answer? Find out Wednesday on a new #Supernatural! https://t.co/bqSnvWJp9h
— Supernatural (@cw_spn) May 4, 2015
Sam needs Charlie’s help to decode the codex, which he needs to decode the Book of The Damned. Charlie reminds us that Dean says bad things will happen if they use the Book of the Damned. What do you think about this sneak peek? Will Charlie be able to decode the Codex? Will she be in danger from Rowena? Tell us in the comments.
I rebooted and turned off/on. No sound.
Speakers work, was listening to radio thru pc.
I have sound, so I don’t know what to say. I’ll see if others are having a problem.
percy, thanks it’s ok. I wont bother you all again.
No, it it’s not working I need to get it fixed.
Oh lord …
what’s a matter eilf……
Well Charlie is toast isn’t she. Sam is doing something very very bad. I really hope they don’t go there. That would be too much.:(
I agree Chery. The Winchesters need a human friend, I also like Charlie 🙁
Jared looks gorgeous and he is working the puppy dog eyes and how Sam is when he is trying to convince someone but I felt that Felicia’s acting was off in this scene, maybe she wasn’t feeling the dialogue that Charlie had been given about how bad! the book is and how wrong! it is to lie! to [i]Dean[/i]. Charlie sounds like a Dean-girl. 😀
You know I seriously am beginning to wish they would just let Dean get on with it (since he has it all under control and is in charge of making decisions) and just go for a holiday in the Bahamas or somewhere until some other hunter solves the problem.
I wonder is that the attitude they are trying to instill in us?
Jared DOES look gorgeous here and it’s pretty much the only redeeming thing about this clip. Can anyone tell me what it is that Sam’s doing that is so bad? Why are we constantly being barraged by how “BAAAAAAD” Sam is being? Not one character is sympathizing with his plight or his POV, and not one character is offering him a solution after they’ve finished telling him he’s wrong. He’s an island, that boy. How is what Sam is doing now so different than what Dean did in season 2 selling his soul and what Dean did in season 9, forcing an angel into his brother without permission and also in season 9 trusting the king of hell into taking on this stupid mark that has doomed him for all eternity? How? And when Dean did all those things did we hear from anyone about how what Dean was doing was bad and dark and that he shouldn’t do it? No. In season 2 Bobby basically only commented on Dean’s low self esteem. In season 9 Cas only says to Dean about the possession that “he trusts too much.” And in season 9 nobody says anything. Has anyone said “what are you doing?” No. “This will be a disaster?” No. “you shouldn’t do this” “you’re a fool” “This is wrong?” No. So, I ask again, seeing as how Sam is following in Dean’s well trod path, why is what Sam is doing so terrible? Why is every character going out of their way to point out AGAIN how awful his plans are? Dean’s doing the same thing is constantly being viewed in a heroic and self sacrificial light, but when it’s Sam he’s a moron, reckless, will make everything worse etc…… Especially considering if he does nothing he leaves himself open to the “you didn’t look for me” criticisms that were leveled at him by Dean, Bobby, Cas and Meg in season 8 and the “I know you wouldn’t do the same for me” “Oh, so you’ve changed your mind on that have you” he’s had to endure this year and last. This show is so hypocritical of itself.
I am not going to get into what Dean did a decade ago and forward or what Sam has done a decade ago and forward, but I will answer your question as to what Sam is doing badly this season.
Sam is lying, to himself and to Dean, to cover a number of questionable acts — those acts driven by his need to save his brother.
First off, he has enlisted all of their friends in his single-minded quest to save Dean and, as a result, has put all of those friends in danger; i.e.:
Cas has betrayed Heaven and lost his only friend there, and not only that. Metatron, who killed Dean once already, is in the wind with the demon tablet. Something is going to go down because of that.
Bobby is in Heaven punishment for his aid in helping Sam (and Cas) break Metatron out in the hopes that he could provide a “cure.”
Sam is putting Charlie, already hunted and injured once in her search for the Book, is now being put in even greater danger; maybe even life-threatening danger.
Secondly, Sam gave a powerful ancient dark spell book to the most evil witch he knows, a witch who tried to kill Dean and it was only[i] because of the Mark[/i] that Dean didn’t die.
Thirdly, Rowena, known by Sam to be an enemy of his brother, tells Sam she needs yet another book in order to help remove the Mark, another dark book that a bad warlock, Magnus, placed under special lock and key because he thought it is so very dangerous. As a result, Sam got his second civilian killed and endangered himself and Dean to the point of death. Again, Dean is only alive [i]because of the Mark[/i] and Sam is only alive because of Dean.
P.S. Griffin (CastielsCat) spells it out very well in her review of “Inside Man,” on the TVfortherestofus site here: http://www.tvfortherestofus.com/index.php/reviews-54/974-recap-and-review-supernatural-10-17-the-inside-man?showall=
looks like someone’s been saving this list up for a while ;););) Given all this, maybe “just a little bit of demon” Dean can finish the job and bash Sam’s head in with a hammer. :D:D:D
[quote] bash Sam’s head in with a hammer. :D:D:D[/quote]No No No.Sam is alive because of Dean.
[img]https://38.media.tumblr.com/83c973c1fb37db0f701746016f6143f4/tumblr_nnufivkXo21qiqj0po2_400.gif[/img][img]https://38.media.tumblr.com/9df7ce1e4c34d7ee1469b94d5aa79ad6/tumblr_nnufivkXo21qiqj0po3_400.gif[/img][img]https://33.media.tumblr.com/23f58b2bd4eb892591767d09ca8a1119/tumblr_nnufivkXo21qiqj0po4_400.gif[/img]
Sam does reckless things and puts the world in danger, yep.
Sam doesn’t plan ahead.
Sam doesn’t read the fine print.
Because of Sam all his friends will die:
[quote]Dean: Saving me from what?
Cain: From your fate. Has it ever occurred to you? Have you never mused upon the fact that you are living my life in reverse. My story began when I killed my brother, and that’s where your story will inevitably end.
Dean: No. Never.
Cain: It’s called the Mark of Cain for a reason! First, first you’d kill Crowley — there’d be some strange mixed feelings on that one, but you’d have your reason, get it done, no remorse. And then you’d kill the angel Castiel, now that one, that I suspect would hurt something awful. And then! Then would come the murder you’d never survive, the one that would finally turn you into as a much of a savage as it did me…
Dean: No.
Cain: Your brother, Sam. The only thing standing between you and that destiny is this Blade. You’re welcome my son.[/quote]
Yeah, Sam is the one doing all the wrong things with no thoughts of the consequences.
[img]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/images/SeasonTen/03-SoulSurvivor/Soul_Survivor_17.jpg[/img][img]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/images/SeasonTen/03-SoulSurvivor/LaunchingAttack.png[/img]
Not one single thing on your list would Sam have even contemplated doing if Dean had not put himself in this situation on the first place out of sheer reckless pride and hubris. And listening to a demon instead of listening to and apologizing to his brother.
Pithy, on point comments supported by perfectly apt clips-you should do this for a living! Nice job!
Thank you, I figure I might as well say it since the bus that has already run over Sam is on its way back to complete the job.
And it’s a bus that is driven by (some) fans.
[quote]Sam is lying, to himself and to Dean, to cover a number of questionable acts — those acts driven by his need to save his brother.[/quote]
Dean lied to Sam for months about his questionable act of having Sam possessed. He lied to himself telling himself it was for the best and he lied to Sam and Kevin. He used Sam for any number of questionable acts including using him as a weapon and when he needed directions.
[quote]First off, he has enlisted all of their friends in his single-minded quest to save Dean and, as a result, has put all of those friends in danger; i.e.:[/quote]
Dean enlisted all of their friends in his deception with Gadreel and got them all killed… Kevin permanently killed. Apparently that was worth it beacause he’d do it again.
[quote]Cas has betrayed Heaven and lost his only friend there, and not only that. Metatron, who killed Dean once already, is in the wind with the demon tablet. Something is going to go down because of that.[/quote]
Cas has betrayed Heaven for Dean on any number of occasions resulting in many of his angel friends deaths, but that was always viewed as a good thing. Now that it’s Sam it’s bad.
[quote]Sam is putting Charlie, already hunted and injured once in her search for the Book, is now being put in even greater danger; maybe even life-threatening danger.[/quote]
Charlie was in life-threatening danger FROM Dean not so long ago. But that was OK because it was Dean. Now that it’s Sam its not OK. And she’s a super secret Ninja now… most likely she can take care of herself.
[quote]Secondly, Sam gave a powerful ancient dark spell book to the most evil witch he knows, a witch who tried to kill Dean and it was only because of the Mark that Dean didn’t die.[/quote]
Dean let the first Knight of Hell, the scourge of the earth for millennia give him the MoC and did it willingly. Dean was portrayed as brave and selfless.
[quote]Thirdly, Rowena, known by Sam to be an enemy of his brother, tells Sam she needs yet another book in order to help remove the Mark, another dark book that a bad warlock, Magnus, placed under special lock and key because he thought it is so very dangerous. As a result, Sam got his second civilian killed and endangered himself and Dean to the point of death. Again, Dean is only alive because of the Mark and Sam is only alive because of Dean.[/quote]
Crowley, known to be an enemy of the Winchesters for YEARS tells Dean to trust him and gets Dean to follow him on a mission to seek out the father of murder, the most fearsome demon since the dawn of time, to gain a weapon to kill Abbadon and Metatron. He lets Crowley lead him by the nose and dupe him into becoming the bearer of the MoC. Dean is responsible for about 8 civilian deaths and the death of a reaper as a result. Sam’s reasons, to save his brother (even though Dean suddenly doesn’t want that, except when he DOES want that and lambasts Sam with his failures) seem much better to me than Deans IMO. And yet nobody talks about what Dean has done as being Bad, dark, or monstrous. Again, the hypocrisy is glaring.
Dean used Sam when he needed directions? Youre right, what a jerk! I mean you can use a location app on your phone or Google maps for Gods sake! If I didnt know better I would think it would have to be the evil influence of the MOC! 😉
Dean invoked Gadreel to take over Sam and suppress him because he was lost and needed directions. He used Sam like he would a convenient tool. So yeah, Dean could have used a location app, but he squashed his brother into his own mind instead for convenience sake. That is the definition of jerk. You absolutely called it..
No I was being faceitious. I cant believe that you would feel the need to nit pick that much in order to be able to call Dean out on what you view as mistreatment of Sam.
[quote]Dean invoked Gadreel to take over Sam and suppress him because he was lost and needed directions. He used Sam like he would a convenient tool. So yeah, Dean could have used a location app, but he squashed his brother into his own mind instead for convenience sake. That is the definition of jerk. You absolutely called it..[/quote]come on E , You are supposed to be silent about this.didn’t you get the memo.
Sam is working with rowena,which is bad.
Why does Sam need to work with Rowena?
Because Dean..No NO….Sam is working with Rowena which is bad.who cares of the why? Sam is working with Rowena..what caused this should not be mentioned.and did you know Sam is working with Rowena which is bad.:p:D
That’s right anonymous….. I forgot. Sam’s not allowed to have any reasons he just gets blame.
Jeez E, are you crazy? That all happened LAST SEASON! The evidence is clear that the writers don’t even remember what happens from episode to episode, much less from a whole season ago! Your expectations for TPTB are way too high. Speaking seriously, if this season ends the way that all signs are now pointing to (Sam breaks the world/gets people killed) and people STILL give TPTB the benefit of the doubt re the mentality of Sam=bad and Dean=good, I will be flummoxed. The contrast between last season and this year is SO DAMN STARK in how the brothers are treated regarding their risky decisions. NOT ONE SINGLE CHARACTER criticized Dean for the MOC, rather they are all 100% sympathetic and have spent every waking hour since then trying to rectify what Dean did to himself. However,every single person the boys know-DEAD AND ALIVE- is all over Sam because what he’s doing “reeks.” I swear, I think they brought back Bobby so they could highlight the fact that even the dead are concerned about what Sam is doing. The only way the writers could be more obvious is if they have the brothers drive past a billboard that says “DON’T DO IT SAM!!” This clip with Charlie simply disgusts and depresses me.
I also love how when we are discussing Sam’s motivations its to highlight how incredibly wrong and misguided he is, but when I rebut with how Dean has done the [u]exact same thing[/u] I am suddenly nitpicking. Sam is only doing what he’s doing because of Dean, forced into this impossible situation because of Dean’s stupidity, so what’s he supposed to do? Sit back and let Dean become a demon again, an unstoppable knight of hell bent on unleashing his horror all over the world as Cain did before him? I find it irritating in the extreme that Dean’s impossible position at the start of season 9 was driven home again and again with all sorts of sympathetic information and POV while Dean mulled over his decision; TPTB were sure to press home Deans dilemma with “he doesn’t have a choice” “he must save Sam” “time is running out,” and etc…..but when TPTB put Sam in the exact same predicament (can’t do nothing because Dean could end up killing the world vs shouldn’t work with Rowena because she’s ‘bad’) is any attempt made to show what an impossible position Sam is in? Nope, not on your Nelly. Sam is doing dark things, Sam is lying to Dean, what Sam is doing “reeks” it “never ends well.” Sam get’s slammed by all comers….friends, family, angels even the dead are all telling him he should stop and the show can’t be bothered to explain how Sam is basically screwed no matter what he does. None of the other characters has offered a solution to Sam’s problem, they just keep telling him how wrong he is. Well, can anyone here offer up a solution? One better than working with Rowena on a cure that is sitting right in front of them? Besides Dean will condemn Sam no matter what he does so he might as well keep on doing what he’s doing. Im sure Carver will figure out some way for Sam to make everything worse for everyone. Can’t hardly wait!
I hope it’ll be like the wall thing in season six. Everyone was expecting Sam to fuck up but he didn’t, Castiel broke the wall inside Sam’s head intentionally.
I hope you’re right SanSummer. That would be novel and completely unexpected for sure. Do you think TPTB are clever enough?
Agreed. The most questionable thing is Sam giving Rowena the Codex and access to the BOTD. Sam even says that shes the most powerful witch… In his desperation he is just not logically thinking things through. How is letting Rowena anywhere near those two powerful items remotely a good thing and how is he even to know that he can trust anything that she says? I dont envy Sam the situation he finds himself in. Perhaps he has a Plan B. Sammy always has a Plan B! It doesnt look like this is going to end well. For anyone. Plus Im all that much more worried for Dean and possibly Sam with the conversation that took place in the mini golf course between Dean and Claire that seems to be a foreshadowing. Dean said that her “dad gave up his body, his vessel, to save the world.” Ahhh!!! Theres that vessel word again and they have been warned not to use the Book of the Mostly Unfortunate lest there be biblical badness (!!!!!) i.e. destruction of the world???
What is Sam doing that Dean has not done and would do again in a heartbeat if he thought it would save Sam whether Sam wanted saving or not , he as said as much in the Purge . It cannot be both ways fans have complained because in their eyes Sam has not gone to extremes to save his brother so there cannot be complaints now about how he is going about it .
Dean created this mess by going off and getting the MOC to begin with as it is but he will get mad at Sam for not telling him and then people will get mad at Sam if something happens to Charlie and Sam will hate himself and end up where he alway is .
And the cycle begins all over again.
Sam is doing exactly what Dean would do in the same situation, except that Dean would order everyone around and they would all do what he says. He might or might not lie to Sam about it, depending on what he believed Sam would do if he knew. At one point he would probably say that he’s “not going to explain himself” and everyone would ultimately agree that it’s for Sam’s own good. It’s all in the storytelling. I wish Sam didn’t act so guilty about lying to Dean all the time. It helps reinforce that he’s going behind Dean’s back.
[quote] I wish Sam didn’t act so guilty about lying to Dean all the time. [/quote]Yes.
You guys, i read comments at extended promo, producer’s preview and here at sneak peek and all i’m reading is how everyone’s blaming Sam for using BOTD when noone says anything to Dean when he does something to save his brother like letting an angel posses Sam. I would like to share my view.
First of all, did u observe in this sneak peek that Sam turns his back to Charlie when he tells her that he didn’t burn the book? Also did u observe that he’s not even able to meet Charlie’s eyes when he tells her that he’s taking help from “world’s most dangerous witch”? What does it tell u? In my opinion, it tells you that even Sam realises that he’s doing something wrong by refering BOTD and getting help form Rowena. But he’s blinded by his love for his brother and with that his need to save his brother.
When Dean took Gadreel’s help it was the same situation. He was desperate to save his brother, he was blinded by his love for his brother and with that his need to save his brother. Hence he did what he did. Sam is doing the same, right? But I never read any comment then in favour of Dean’s decision or defending his decision. Everyone was busy saying how Dean betrayed Sam and took his choice away.
My next point is, i think there’s a huge difference between taking an angel’s help and taking a book’s help which is described as DAMNED in the first place and add to that a witch’s help who in Sam’s own words is “world’s most dangerous witch”. Angels are dick as we have heard from the show itself time and again. Yes, they’re dick but they are not dark and dangerous. Yes, Kevin’s death was unfortunate and tragic and Dean’s fault at some level but Gadreel didn’t kill him because Gadreel was some dark and twisted being who kills humans for pleasure. Gadreel did it because he put his faith in wrong man and acted according to his orders. Because Gadreel was dick as angels are. Now, here is a book written on a nun’s own skin and in her own blood(which in itself is creepy) which tells how to do dark stuff. The book is calling Dean to do bad stuff. There’s a reason it is calling Dean, it’s because he has the MOC which itself is a dark stuff. And Sam is trying to take help of this book to save Dean. Now can u imagine the impact it will have if BOTD is decoded and fell into wrong hands or even in Dean’s hands before he gets rid of The Mark? I think it’ll seriously be worse and twisted than what Gadreel did or could have done, don’t you think? Sam must be doing something wrong, don’t you think?
Now as for characters continuously telling Sam how Sam is doing wrong taking help from book and Rowena and on top of that going behind Dean’s back…. well shouldn’t they at least try to express their concerns and try to stop Sam? You should be glad there’s at least someone to tell Sam that he’s doing something wrong. Dean had noone.
And as for Dean telling Sam to back off from saving him with BOTD, i think, Dean is not telling him to back off from saving him at all. Dean just doesn’t want Sam to take help from BOTD. I don’t think Dean ever complained about Sam trying to save him, he just didn’t wanted Sam to take help from Ruby or Demon Blood(In case of his crossroad deal, he did prevent Sam from trying to save him because there was good reason. It was terms of that deal that if Dean tries to trick and save himself, Sam will die. But even then, eventually Dean understood that Sam was doing what Dean would have done if tables were turned and accepted that Sam try and save him but just not with help from Ruby or Demon blood. And when Dean realised that that was the only way he could be saved then Dean stopped Sam and chose to die and go to hell). Dean knows, we know it, that they will always try to save each other(actually it was Sam who didn’t try to save Dean from Purgatoy. Some irony, don’t you think? Anyway that’s point of discussion for another day). I think it’s more about how they try to save each other. Yes, i know, Dean also took the dark side to save Sam by making crossroad deal. But Dean not wanting Sam to repeat that again, is it asking too much from Sam?
As for Charlie dying and it being Sam’s fault…..why wouldn’t it be? Didn’t everyone screamed last season that Kevin dying was Dean’s fault? Then why wouldn’t it be Sam’s fault if Charlie dies?
Now as for Dean caring for Charlie’s safety….i don’t see why he wouldn’t. Dean considers her his sister, he cares for her. He will always be concerned however tough or ninja Charlie becomes. That’s who Dean is. He cares for Sam, he cares for Cas, he cares for Charlie no matter how tough or capable they are of fighting themselves. I don’t understand why everyone is so surprised and pissed about that.
Good points all!!! Well thought out.
The two situations are actually nothing alike. The big difference that few people seem to realise is that if Dean had not had Sam possessed then Sam would be safe in Heaven with family and friends. Dean didn’t have Sam possessed for the greater good, he didn’t do it for Sam, he did it for Dean. The only person who would have been hurt by Sam going with Death is Dean.
If Sam doesn’t try and save Dean then he will get worse. The MOC will take over and he’ll become a demon or worse. He can’t die. Countless people will die, including Sam and Castiel. There will be no happy ending for Dean if Sam does nothing. As a result of Dean taking on the MOC, Sam is only left with bad choices. Do something and people will die. Do nothing and people will die. Yes, Sam wants to save his brother but once again, he’s left having to also consider the greater good. Dean’s actions kept Sam from peace, Sams actions are keeping Dean from becoming the mindless killer he never wanted to be, and he’s trying to save the lives of all thr people in danger from Dean.
Secondly, Charlie is an adult and is capable of making her own decisions. She can say no. She’s already been affected by the MOC twice. Sam is giving her all the details about the plan. She knows it is dangerous and she’s going in with her eyes wide open so if she dies it will be as a result of her decision to try and help Dean, not because Sam asked her to. Kevin died because Dean didn’t tell him (or Sam) about Sam being possessed. Had he told Kevin then Kevin could have made an informed decision about whether or not to stay.
Sam didn’t know that Dean was in Purgatory. He choose not to go ‘darkside’ to try and find where he was, so he wasn’t making the same mistakes as Dean. Dean (and fans) ripped him apart for it.
Dean doesnt do what he does because he cares for Sam. If he did then he would out what Sam wants first.
I was about to respond to that comment making almost identical points to the ones you made when your post popped up. Beautifully stated and I agree with every word!!
Yikes, my reported comments box lit up like a Christmas tree this morning! It seems that this thread, all of the comments, have been reported multiple times. Whatever you’re saying, it’s pissing some people off.
I could edit or remove, but how about I do this. PLEASE, allow me to remind everyone, we do have clearly stated rules about Sam vs. Dean. This does sound like you’re knocking down Dean to defend Sam. It actually comes across as Dean bashing. It’s okay to state your frustrations about Sam’s character (Lord knows I have a few) but enough ripping on Dean in the process.
Next set of reports I get I’ll have to edit. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
Edit as you see fit Alice. I’ll respect your decision in this.
Huh. Last I saw of Dean, a game of mini-golf pulled him right out of the PMSing mood he was in.
Nothing but a piece of exposition explaining why Charlie is in the episode. The special code book to unlock the coded BotD is encoded, so Charlie and her latest product placement must be called upon to unlock the code to the code with her special app that can break ancient codes. Okay, then. Seriously boring, but I hope the episode isn’t. It’s time the writers got on with the Winchester story beyond, “Oh, no. Dean is getting worse.”
I do wish the storyline actually did show Dean getting worse instead of the whiplash version going anywhere on a continuum between massacre/ killing spree/ killing Cain/ black eyes in the mirror and eating a lot and the latest- a round of playing Putt Putt golf and bonding time with the newly morphed teenage princess hunter warrior. This would at least make Charlie’s sacrifice more real. I think Charlie will be killed. Wish it was not true. The Winchesters do not have any human friends.
I’m thinking (and hoping) that Charlie may be taken hostage by the Styne’s. Sam and Dean will have to exchange the Book for her. Sam being responsible for Charlie’s death would be too much. I hope that isn’t where this is going.
You guys, i read comments at extended promo, producer’s preview and here at sneak peek and all i’m reading is how everyone’s blaming Sam for using BOTD when noone says anything to Dean when he does something to save his brother like letting an angel posses Sam. I would like to share my view.
First of all, did u observe in this sneak peek that Sam turns his back to Charlie when he tells her that he didn’t burn the book? Also did u observe that he’s not even able to meet Charlie’s eyes when he tells her that he’s taking help from “world’s most dangerous witch”? What does it tell u? In my opinion, it tells you that even Sam realises that he’s doing something wrong by refering BOTD and getting help form Rowena. But he’s blinded by his love for his brother and with that his need to save his brother.
When Dean took Gadreel’s help it was the same situation. He was desperate to save his brother, he was blinded by his love for his brother and with that his need to save his brother. Hence he did what he did. Sam is doing the same, right? But I never read any comment then in favour of Dean’s decision or defending his decision. Everyone was busy saying how Dean betrayed Sam and took his choice away.
My next point is, i think there’s a huge difference between taking an angel’s help and taking a book’s help which is described as DAMNED in the first place and add to that a witch’s help who in Sam’s own words is “world’s most dangerous witch”. Angels are dick as we have heard from the show itself time and again. Yes, they’re dick but they are not dark and dangerous. Yes, Kevin’s death was unfortunate and tragic and Dean’s fault at some level but Gadreel didn’t kill him because Gadreel was some dark and twisted being who kills humans for pleasure. Gadreel did it because he put his faith in wrong man and acted according to his orders. Because Gadreel was dick as angels are. Now, here is a book written on a nun’s own skin and in her own blood(which in itself is creepy) which tells how to do dark stuff. The book is calling Dean to do bad stuff. There’s a reason it is calling Dean, it’s because he has the MOC which itself is a dark stuff. And Sam is trying to take help of this book to save Dean. Now can u imagine the impact it will have if BOTD is decoded and fell into wrong hands or even in Dean’s hands before he gets rid of The Mark? I think it’ll seriously be worse and twisted than what Gadreel did or could have done, don’t you think? Sam must be doing something wrong, don’t you think?
Now as for characters continuously telling Sam how Sam is doing wrong taking help from book and Rowena and on top of that going behind Dean’s back…. well shouldn’t they at least try to express their concerns and try to stop Sam? You should be glad there’s at least someone to tell Sam that he’s doing something wrong. Dean had noone.
And as for Dean telling Sam to back off from saving him with BOTD, i think, Dean is not telling him to back off from saving him at all. Dean just doesn’t want Sam to take help from BOTD. I don’t think Dean ever complained about Sam trying to save him, he just didn’t wanted Sam to take help from Ruby or Demon Blood(In case of his crossroad deal, he did prevent Sam from trying to save him because there was good reason. It was terms of that deal that if Dean tries to trick and save himself, Sam will die. But even then, eventually Dean understood that Sam was doing what Dean would have done if tables were turned and accepted that Sam try and save him but just not with help from Ruby or Demon blood. And when Dean realised that that was the only way he could be saved then Dean stopped Sam and chose to die and go to hell). Dean knows, we know it, that they will always try to save each other(actually it was Sam who didn’t try to save Dean from Purgatoy. Some irony, don’t you think? Anyway that’s point of discussion for another day). I think it’s more about how they try to save each other. Yes, i know, Dean also took the dark side to save Sam by making crossroad deal. But Dean not wanting Sam to repeat that again, is it asking too much from Sam?
As for Charlie dying and it being Sam’s fault…..why wouldn’t it be? Didn’t everyone screamed last season that Kevin dying was Dean’s fault? Then why wouldn’t it be Sam’s fault if Charlie dies?
Now as for Dean caring for Charlie’s safety….i don’t see why he wouldn’t. Dean considers her his sister, he cares for her. He will always be concerned however tough or ninja Charlie becomes. That’s who Dean is. He cares for Sam, he cares for Cas, he cares for Charlie no matter how tough or capable they are of fighting themselves. I don’t understand why everyone is so surprised and pissed about that.
Reply in season 10 bitterness thread ([url]”https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/18921-let-s-discuss-the-season-ten-bitterness-thread”[/url])
I agree with many of your points. Dean was desperate to save Sam so he tricked Sam into being possessed by an angel. An angel that was vouched for by Cas. He knew it was wrong and he knew that Sam would never want this, specially considering all the times that Sam had been possessed and what those possessions made his body do while he helplessly watched. It was a gasp moment but it was also Dean’s only play. He never bargained for everything to go south. He should have told Sam and let Sam make the decision, he should have told Kevin what was happening so that Kevin could have protected himself. There were lots of choices made by Dean that affected those he loves. And now Dean is paying a very heavy price. Not only is he now cursed with the Mark because of what he did but now Sam is doing unthinkable things to save him. This doesn’t let Sam off the hook though. Sam has made choices that he knows is wrong. We saw it in Suzie/Sam’s ghost. Sam was pretty much telling Sam that he was on the wrong road and innocent people were already getting hurt. He has involved Bobby in his mad scheme and now Bobby is paying a price. Sam doesn’t know that but it is still happening. Sam is being warned by everyone (including the Universe) that what he is doing is going to have catastrophic consequences. But much like Dean his head goes out the window where his brothers life is concerned. We can see in the preview clip where Sam is enlisting Charlie’s help. He knows that he is putting Charlie in very great danger you can see it on his face. But he’s in it too far now. He isn’t going to stop until his brother is saved. Is this worse than what Dean did? Kind of looks like it doesn’t it. I hope to Chuck that Charlie isn’t the price Sam has to pay for what he is doing. That to me would be going too far. I can’t see them coming back from that. Not ever.
[quote] He knows that he is putting Charlie[/quote]Charlie is a hunter.That is her job.She can refuse if she wants to.
Yes she can however she is trusting Sam not to let her get hurt. He is supposed to love her enough to not let anything happen to her. And the look on Sam’s face sure looked like he knew what he was asking was putting her in greater danger than she realized.
Sam is no angel or Demon ,he is human..as much as she is putting trust in him that she will not get hurt the same trust he puts in her.
I do not know anything about love her enogh to not let anything happen to her …too melodramatic for my taste.
The look on Sam’s face depends on you me and many many other fans so the look as of now is just a look.If you want Sam to guilty it will me one thing to you and since i do not want Sam to be guilty it will men another thing to me.
I don’t think I ever implied that I want Sam to be guilty. I very emphatically do not! I think this is a terrible story line if it plays out to my worst fears. I do not want Sam to be responsible for Charlie’s death. I think anything else that the show has done to Sam’s character would pale in comparison.
She trusted Dean not to let her get hurt too… and HE hurt her. Sometimes it doesn’t go the way we plan. I agree with the others. Charlie cannot call herself a hunter and then be expected to not be treated like a hunter. If she’s suddenly a helpless wilting flower, Ima gonna be pissed. And Sam was pretty up front with her about what she would be doing in the clip. She had all the info and could have refused, but she didn’t obviously. Sam was far more up front with Charlie than Dean was with Kevin… and Kevin wasn’t a hunter.
Well I am just going by what Suzie/Sam was saying to Sam. He knows what he is doing is putting innocent lives in danger. Charlie may be a hunter but she is also questioning Sam’s decisions. Sam is playing every card to get her to help him. When he turns away from her you can see by his face that Sam is really torn up by what he is doing. Kevin had also survived a year with Crowley (who he outsmarted and dodged) so he was aware of the dangers. And I believe I pointed out that Dean should have been up front with Kevin. Why he wasn’t is still a mystery except that the show wanted to kill Kevin off. Dean should have been upfront with Sam as well. All I’m saying is that while all of these events that are happening now are as a result of saving Sam, what Sam is doing now is on him. He knows what he is doing is wrong. He is telling himself that, it’s on his face when he is enlisting Charlie. He is so laser focused on saving Dean he will do anything including giving the most powerful book of evil spells to a powerful witch with the decoder ring. A book he knows has unleashed unimaginable horror on earth. As I say above, I hate this storyline for Sam. I really don’t want Sam to go so far as to be irredeemable. That happens way too often on this show. I am hoping I am very wrong here. But I guess we will find out more tonight.
I dont’ dispute that Sam is feeling guilty and that he clearly is cringing at asking Charlie to help him. But what else should he do? Any suggestions? What is the better course of action in this case? By Carver’s own admission Dean is getting worse (I really hope we finally see some actual evidence of that this episode, proof of everyone’s claims that Dean is getting worse have been woefully lacking IMO), should Sam wait? Put the book away? Look for another code breaker who isn’t a hunter and a fighter with mad ninja skills? Sam is in this conundrum because of Dean and his decisions. I just hate the way the show keeps pointing out that what Sam is doing is wrong, dark, bad, suspect etc… because he’s pretty much got no choice. When Dean was in the same boat with the possession (no choice) the show told us he was heroic… why is the perspective of the story telling so different for each bother?
Well unfortunately Sam’s choices are whatever the writers want for Sam. I just don’t think using the BOTD was the best idea. IDK how about dosing Dean up with more human blood until they come up with a better solution. I just don’t want Sam to be responsible for getting Charlie killed. That is too far. I don’t think the possession is the same thing at all. It is the catalyst for all that is happening now. But Dean was deceived by Gadreel. He didn’t know that Sam was being possessed by a “psycho” angel. I was never under the impression that Dean was heroic. I thought his decisions after Gadreel was expelled were stupid and reckless. He should have read the warning label. What Sam is doing he knows is wrong on just about every level. He knows that not only is he putting his friends in danger he has already gotten an innocent women killed pursuing his plan. Of course he didn’t know that was going to happen but like with Kevin it did. He even conjured up a ghost to tell himself that. When Dean had Sam possessed it was with the false information that the angel was a good guy. He had no way of knowing how bad it was all going to go. Sam knows how this is going to end. He keeps telling himself that he is doing the wrong thing. He knows it. I just hope that they don’t take Sam “there”. Ruth Connel said “they go there” I hope this isn’t what she meant.
The BOTD is their only idea. 35 episodes of searching and this is all they’ve come up with. Keeping Dean dosed up with blood is the equivalent of locking up MOc Dean indefinitely. Plus, Dean isn’t a demon at the moment. If Charlie is killed then sure, some people will blame Sam solely (they already are and she’s not even dead) but Charlies death will also be Deans fault and Charlies fault. Some people are too well versed in Sam blame to see that but Charlie is responsible for her own decisions and Dean’s actions are what got her involved in the first place.
Gadreel wasn’t a ‘psycho’ angel until Dean threatened his life. Up until then he had everything Desn had told him to do. So he was a ‘good guy’. People don’t become bad guys just because Dean says so. Perhaps if Dean has asked Gadreel what was going on then things would not has happened as they did. Instead, Dean acted with thinking again. (Did he seriously think that Gadreel wouldnt know that Dean was telling Sam he was possessed???)
What is also wrong on every level is doing nothing when you can do something.
Dean knows, and has said more than once, that these things never end well. That he continued on his course of action was pure hubris on his part, as was taking on the MOC (which had nothing at all to do with the possession). And knowing the consequences, Dean said he’d do it again.
I believe the show will ‘go there’. They always do with Sam. And Sam will do what he always does. Live with the criticism and blame and punishment, accept responsibility and make amends. However, for now, ridding the world of the MOC is an understandable priority.
What danger? Oh yeah, you mean working with the strongest witch in the world (or however Sam described her)? That one? But Charlies a hunter now with years and years of experience – not – this should be a walk in the park for her. Not like Rowena doesnt hold grudges or that she just recently tried to kill Dean who would have died if not for the MOC… yeah, Sams thinking real clearly.
He’s thinking clearly enough to realise that the BOTD holds the key to curing Dean. He’s thinking clearly enough to know that he can’t translate it himself. And he’s thinking clearly enough to enlist the help of someone who can translate it. Sam doesn’t have the luxury of burying his head in the sand about this like Dean does. For all his desperation he is still logical enough to know that.
Charlie is not there to hunt, she’s there to decode. And she has had years of experience in that.
A book that Sam has been warned will unleash untold horrors on earth. He has enlisted the help of friends who trust him to keep them safe. And he has put Charlie in a room with a very powerful witch with a very powerful spell book and the codex to unleash it’s powers. Not saying that Dean hasn’t played a huge role in all of this because he has. It is because of Dean’s reckless decisions that everyone is now making desperate choices.
Can we at least mention that the person told Sam that the Book could indeed remove the MOC. He also wanted control of the Book, so his predictions of evil consequences could have been partly because he wanted Sam to not use the Book, so he could have it? The other large voice against use of the Book is Dean, who wears the MOC, a Mark that will do ANYTHING to not be removed. Sam isn’t listening to these people and it may well be a huge mistake, but the sources of the information aren’t exactly neutral or are being influenced by outside forces. Why are we supposed to believe that the Stynes and MOC Dean are completely 100% honest and that what they say must be true?
Didn’t they deduce from their own research that the BOTD had been used by the Styne family during the Nazi reign, plagues and such? I thought before Jacob and Dean had their encounter they already knew it was used for evil purposes. And Dean’s reaction to it was also foreboding.
I am just going by the information we are being given. There may be twists and turns ahead. There always are. I just don’t want Sam to go any darker than he is already. Maybe I should have taken this to Alice’s discussion page about how dark Sam is this season. It is darker than he has ever been IMO.
What else will unleash untold horrors on earth? The MOC. And the BOTD has been around for centuries and it hasn’t caused any problems yet. The MOC has already caused problems.
Charlie is a hunter. There is no ‘safe’. If she wanted ‘guaranteed safety’ then she wouldn’t hunt. Charlie hasn’t been safe since the moment she met the Winchesters. People continue to die because of Sam and Dean’s toxic relationship. If she dies then she won’t be the first and she won’t be the last. At this rate, Sam and Dean are in line to become the biggest monsters on the show.
Well according to the episode the Book of the Damned it has unleashed untold horrors and was used by the Styne family for a 100 years….I seem to recall Nazi’s and plauges, stock markets and such..
But Cheryl, there really is one big difference between the two situations, as E pointed out. Had Dean not made his decision regarding Gadreel, the only person who would have died is Sam. Clearly, if they can’t save Dean from the MOC, many innocent people will die. Isn’t that why they keep telling us how much worse Dean is getting, and referring to how Dean snapped? The clear implication is that a newly demon Dean will do terrible things. And at least the people who Sam is enlisting to help him are all hunters (Cas is an honorary hunter!) whose JOB is to kill the monsters and save people. They can’t tell us that Charlie is now super ninja hunter who has freely CHOSEN this life, but blame Sam for involving her in the risky venture to save Dean. That is what the boys and other hunters do every day. Risk their lives to defeat evil. If Charlie wants to be a hunter, that’s part and parcel of it. Moreover, it’s not some random monster they’re trying to defeat, it’s DEAN, which is obviously an even bigger incentive to risk their lives. They can’t have it both ways with Charlie. If she was still just computer geek Charlie, I would agree that maybe Sam would be wrong to involve her. But they can’t present her as a kickass hunter BY HER OWN CHOICE, yet portray her as some innocent getting sucked into Sam’s schemes. In fact, if Charlie were a man nobody would be all that concerned-it’s almost patronizing that people are upset that the “tiny little defenseless woman” is being put at risk even though TPTB have presented her as anything but defenseless. And bottom line – while EVERYBODY keeps saying Dean is getting worse, NOBODY has given Sam an alternative. Can you imagine the uproar and blame heaped on Sam if he did as everyone wants him to, ceased his efforts regarding the BOTD, and Dean turned into an immortal monster like Cain and resumed killing off a huge chunk of the earth’s population? Holy crap, THAT would destroy Sam as a character. It would be “Sam didn’t look for Dean in Purgatory” on steroids. I just feel so strongly that Sam’s situation now is NOT AT ALL like Dean’s. Yes, bottom line Sam wants to save Dean because he loves him, but there is so much more involved than simply that Dean will die. In fact, it’s the very opposite. Dean will NOT die, he will be lost to evil forever, and would be as dangerous as anything the boys have ever hunted before. I rest my case! Sorry if I sound too emphatic, but people are already blaming Sam and he hasn’t even done anything yet!
Very good points all! 😀
If you read my whole comment I do say that too. Because of Dean’s decision to save Sam a bunch of dominos fell. The last of which is what Sam is doing to save Dean. But Sam can’t be let off the hook completely. We know he knows what he is doing is wrong. He is telling himself that. So these are his choices now. I don’t think Sam is looking any further than saving his brother. I really think his mind is only focused on that not the collateral damage that might be caused if Dean should turn back into a demon. All he is thinking about is if that happens he may have to kill him. And you are correct these two situations are not the same. I don’t think I implied that they were. All I’m saying is that while Dean knew what he was doing to Sam was wrong in that Sam would never want it, the damage was mostly to Sam. Yes Kevin died but Dean could never have known that was going to happen. Sam knows that he is putting everyone he cares about in danger. You can see that by the look on his face when he turns away from Charlie. But he is so focused on saving Dean nothing else matters. Believe me I don’t want things to go so far that there is no redemption for Sam. As much as Charlie is disliked that would be something I couldn’t see them ever recovering from.
P.S. I am really hoping that Charlie gets kidnapped and Sam and Dean have to trade the Book to get her back.
P.S.S. I can’t seem to keep from putting my foot in it can I 🙂
One last point (I swear!) in regards to this comment:
[quote]Sam knows that he is putting everyone he cares about in danger. You can see that by the look on his face when he turns away from Charlie.[/quote]
But neither Sam nor Dean worried too much in the first Charlie episode when they put her in an unbelievably dangerous situation with Dick, an incredibly smart and dangerous enemy. The risk to Charlie was that she would become Dick’s dinner. And at that point she really was a geeky little computer expert who had nothing to do with the hunting life, was terrified, and only reluctantly agreed to help. But because the stakes were high, the boys did what they had to do, no second guessing. I think Sam is in the same situation, the stakes are much higher than just Dean’s life, but because it’s a SAM decision, not a joint or Dean-only decision, the risks are deemed unacceptable by TPTB and many fans. And I’m sorry, but I really think if it were a young male hunter in Charlie’s place, there would not be nearly the same reaction. Dean certainly did not feel very guilty for very long about Kevin’s death (which I thought was very OOC since Dean had referred to him as family). All I really want is some degree of consistency in how the writers treat decisions by Sam vs. decisions by Dean, but I’m destined to never be satisfied I fear. Even Cas has been treated better than Sam in this respect. His disastrous decision to trust Metatron led to the deaths of many humans, including Kevin. But apparently nobody gives much of a crap, because nobody has mentioned that other than briefly. Only Sam must be slowly roasted over a spit for his risky decisions. Sorry Cheryl, that ended up being 3 or 4 more points! I’m very nervous about tonight. I guess I’ll know in an hour and a half if my worst fears are to be realized.
What? I have to wait 3 more hours that is so not fair….
I think it is just Sam’s unfortunate circumstance that he is a co-lead in a basically 2 man show. Other characters can screw up but they aren’t going to be scrutinized like poor Sam. Dean makes just as many mistakes and at least here they are highlighted regularly. I am only trying to be realistic about how Sam’s story is going right now fair or not Sam is traveling a very dark and dangerous road. And he is convincing his friends and allies to take risks with him.
Good points. And to that repeated comment about Charlie can say no? So can Sam. Sam has always had that option. Dean doesnt make Sam do anything, ultimately the decision is Sams to make. The idea that Sam had to do this or that because of something Dean has done? Just like Charlie he could and can always just say no.
Sorry for posting my comment two times. I did it by mistake.
Latest theory: What ever Sam’s doing with the book causes Rowena to bind Sam to her so that he becomes her mindless killing minion…. maybe he’s the prisoner to Rowena?
If she wants a mindless killing minion aka Magnus with his will controlling spell, then shed more likely go after the bearer of the MOC/FirstBlade. Or both, she could do both. Thats what Id do. Why have one handsome kickass hunter when you can have two? Or three if she “splits the baby” with Dark/Light Dean. A trifecta! Lovely!
Yeah… cause Dean needs even more plot.
Hmmm….I wouldn’t mind a little Souless Sam. But JA’s new interview might blow that out of the water. It has to do with who sheds the most tears.
And who is that pray-tell?
Are we allowed to say here? *SPOILER* sounds like Sam…