Supernatural Season 10, The Road So Far…
I like Season 10—a lot. It’s not as grand in scope, thus far, as other seasons, and I think that is directly why I am enjoying it. I remember living through Seasons 4 and 5 and how breathtakingly excited I was for each new episode, for each brick to be laid and the next one to be placed on top as it built episode by episode (more so in 4 than 5) to the climatic finale, but, when I have down time during various hiatuses, the seasons I spend my time with are 1, 2, and 3. I love the smaller scale, the more personal stories, the brothers side by side working together, yes, at times having their issues as is normal and natural, but it was a storyline I was able to relate to; it resonated then and it continues to resonate now. There are episodes here and there from the subsequent seasons that I do pick out and watch, but they are few and far between. Notably, they are more the ‘event’ type episodes such as the boys going to heaven, the old west, traveling to alternate realities or into the past, a weekend with Bobby or season premieres and finales and, of course, bring the Trickster in for some fun, and I’ll watch…yes, even the awful Hammer of the Gods. Hey, I have fast forward on my DVR, and I know how to use it. 😉
Season 10 is smaller, quieter, more focused on the brothers with small, personal stories for all the characters, even the secondary or tertiary ones such as Jody, Donna, and Kate. And, while Castiel’s and Crowley’s personal stories are thus far duds, this is more personal taste. I prefer Sam and Dean, and when Cas and Crowley directly relate to them, such as Crowley in the first two episodes of the season and Cas – well, I’m still waiting, but I know it’s going to come, but when they’re tied in with the brothers, then I find it interesting. Hey, it’s the tenth season, not only has the show changed, but so have I. Still, despite my disinterest in two of the four main characters’ stories, I still am enjoying Season 10.
Over the summer hiatus I wrote an article on why I was cautiously optimistic for Season 10. If you want to kill five minutes, you can read it here. (Alice, insert the link, please?) So, with time to pass through the shorter, but still frustrating, winter hiatus, I thought I’d use that as an outline to see where things are at.
First up, the Men of Letters. I love this story opportunity, and it still has yet to be explored. I am surprised that the writers came up with such a rich storytelling landscape and thus far have done so little with it. Thank heavens the set designers didn’t squander the opportunity! We still have 14 episodes left this season, so perhaps it’s to come.
Jody Mills returns with her new buddy, Donna Hanscum. I thoroughly enjoyed Hibbing 911. I’m hopeful we see them both again.
Cole. I still feel that Cole’s story has been short-changed. I would have liked a bit more cat and mouse with him and the brothers. I would have liked some conversation between Sam and Dean regarding Cole, some reflection on what their lives do to those they come into contact with. This is something that does make sense for Sam and Dean to discuss, what they do, why they do it, and what is the cost. They’ve looked plenty into the cost for themselves, but delving into the cost for others would be something to explore. I’m disappointed that there wasn’t more to this, but I am happy that Cole made it out alive. There is something to be said for those who touch the supernatural and can walk away from it still living. Ah, Sarah from Provenance, if not for Crowley’s machinations, you would have continued in your happy, post-supernatural exposure life. Sigh.
Speaking of post-Supernatural lives, Jensen Ackles could be a director outside of SPN is he so chooses. Once again he directed an episode and once again I found it thoroughly enjoyable. I did manage to note some additional touches he put into his effort with different camera angles and distances. I’m no expert on directing, and I know he has not ever even gone to school for this, rather learned through experience, but I can see the growth in his selections. Plus, I absolutely enjoy listening to him talk about the experience. It’s clear he loves what he does and it is a joy to listen to someone talk about what they love.
The retrospective special set the tone for this season. I remember watching the special and noting how much time was spent on the genesis of the show and the early seasons. There were nods given to Seasons 6 through 9, as well as slight hints for Season 10, but the bulk of the retrospective was spent in the Kripke years. Since those are the years that drew me in the first place, I appreciated the choice. Also, since Season 10 is so much more akin to the early seasons, I think their choice was intentional.
Supernatural hit the amazing 200 episode milestone – and knocked it out of the park. I absolutely adored Fan Fiction. I had reservations, apparently so did Jensen Ackles. He talks about how he was concerned, so much so that he asked for a meeting with Jeremy Carver. Leaving Carver’s office he felt a bit better but still concerned. As luck would have it, he ran into Robbie Thompson right away and Robbie was gracious and sat down with Jensen for a conversation on the episode, telling him the whole thought behind it and what they were trying to say. When that was done, Jensen was converted. He understood. I appreciate those insights, but I didn’t need them. I enjoyed it the first time I watched it. I’ve seen it four times and still laugh at all the right places. I’m glad they did what they did. And then they moved right on with the season they have planned.
Who am I and what am I doing? That is very much the question that the characters are exploring this season. Hannah explored it fully first; and returned to heaven, giving her vessel her life back. Cole next explored that question and, for all that we’ve seen and know, returned home to resume his life as husband and father. Crowley told Dean to pick a bloody side: demon or human, and if not for Sam’s dogged pursuit, would have, I believe, chosen demon – so strong was the MoC’s hold on him. Dean’s journey of discovery continues, and the MoC is still hanging around, but Dean has stated that he has people who love him, and that is pretty much a first for Dean to ever be so open. Cas and Crowley are embarking on their own journeys as well. So far the progress has been slow, especially with Crowley but we’re getting there with Rowena’s arrival.
Sam, well his journey is even quieter, and yes, I know that annoys some fans. Sam is coming to grips, in his usual subdued way, with just who he is as Dean’s brother. Sam is very much the protector-caretaker this season, and he has done terrible things to find Dean and try to save him. There is still much to explore, especially now that Sam’s worst fears have been realized. So much of what is going on with Sam is illustrated brilliantly in Jared’s portrayal of him. Sam faced all his anger and feelings of betrayal from last season and threw himself headlong and without hesitation into saving his brother. He was going to die trying to save Dean, and heaven and hell help whoever, or whatever, got in his way. Sam has spent the longest of any character trying to reconcile who he is and what his life is, first leaving for Stanford, then trying to figure out his destiny, then should he regain his soul, can he leave and live a life with a woman, is he a Men of Letters, does he even have a home – believing the bunker where they work, but not home, but now he knows. Side by side with Dean in the Impala is where he belongs. And, when the opportunity arises, he goes home to the bunker with his brother. This Sam is so weightless, so fun to watch. I do believe that Jared is thoroughly enjoying this season’s Sam. Sure he was fabulous as Soulless and Lucifer, and possessed by an angel, but this Sam, so thoroughly focused and so unencumbered is fantastic.
Demon Dean…ah, we knew you for too short of a time. Again, I understand why Demon Dean had to go so quickly. First off, the show is not constructed so as to have the two leads separated for multiple episodes in a row; second, the 200th episode was a tribute to the show as a whole, and the fandom outright, to have Demon Dean still in the mix just would not work. So, three episodes and he’s out. (See what I did there?) Still, as Seinfeld once said, and ultimately did with his very own show, always leave them wanting more. Now, if they give us some Demon Dean flashbacks, it won’t seem so been there, done that. I liked Demon Dean, from fun loving, reckless, free for all without a care, to cold and calculating, to manipulating and threatening. It was quite a ride. And, with the Mark of Cain back in the mix, we’re going to get, I think, a little bit of Dean trying to fight the Mark, and from all the interviews Jared and Jensen have given, that fight is one the brothers do together. That, for me, is key.
So, to wrap it all up, Season 10, nine episodes in, is a hit for me. The brothers are together, they are committed, they have their hang ups, they have their moments of conflict, but all of it is organic and not so weighted down with the lies. Yes, it’s Sam on the sidelines this time watching Dean go through some things, but that’s also what’s so darn refreshing, after season after season after season of watching Dean being the one to worry. Also refreshing, both brothers are aware of what they’re worrying about…the MoC.
Will the second part of the season continue to live up? I don’t know. I do know that Charlie returns, and I adore that breath of fresh air, and Timothy Omundson returns. Aside from that, I don’t know much. But, as long as the brothers are together, I think things will be just fine, small mytharc notwithstanding.
As always, thanks for reading, Elle2
Finally – a bit of positivity about this season! Thank you for this Elle; you’ve summed up exactly what what I’m enjoying about season 10. As always there are flaws, and the main one for me is too much time away from Sam and Dean, but I can live with that because this season feels much more personal with their relationship front and centre. And I definitely hope we see more of Demon Dean because watching JA act those scenes has been my highlight so far.
Hi, Swordy,
Glad you like what I wrote. Yes, I’m very happy with this season. So far this season every episode has been watched at least twice, and most upwards of three times. I’ve been reviewing this mostly on TVFTROU and all my reviews have been positive — well, Girls, Girls, Girls didn’t get such as much positive from me, but I’ve come around to quite enjoying it, flaws and all. 😉 Like you, the time away from Sam and Dean isn’t as interesting for me, but I do understand and appreciate the logistics. I’m looking forward to January 20th — too far away, but then it also means we’ll have fewer breaks during this second, and longer, half of the season.
Well you can count me in also. I have been loving this season. I would also prefer that the focus remain on the brothers but now that Cas looks like his story has some direction I am looking forward to see where it goes. I am loving the manipulating Rowena. I think the cat and mouse between her and Crowley should be fun. There is a spoiler about another character you mentioned so I am looking forward to that. Charlie will be back from Oz with….? So a jammed packed second half.
And then of course what is going to happen now Dean? And what are you going to do about it Sam?
All in all I can’t predict where it is all going and that is the most fun. Thanks for the recap I enjoyed it. 🙂
Hi, Cheryl142,
I have no idea where we’re going…which is usually why I’ve learned to stay away from predictions, focusing instead on what’s in front of me. I think the remaining 14 episodes will be pretty jam packed…and yes, I’m sure the pacing will continue to frustrate, but as long as the brothers are working together in more harmony than has been for several seasons, I think I’ll live with the uneven pacing. I’m hopeful Cas’s story will interest me more, and I am hoping that Crowley gets more snark and less sap. He’s best when he’s snapping the one-liners and looking out for number 1 — and I do believe that he does not trust Rowena for one millisecond.
i’m with you as well elle2. I love this season for all the reasons you stated. Carver had a daunting task when he took over. While season 6 was absolutely awesome imho, s7? not so much so. Many had stated it was because there was a disconnect between the boys….by isolating them, leaving them alone, losing all their support, the boys ended up isolated from ea. other. Sarah did a very good job, but as I said, how do you top the apocalypse? carver did an incredibly smart thing….he didn’t try. Instead he changed the focus of the show back to the boys….It’s been a gradual change and even somewhat frustrating, but oh what a grand story it is. I’ll admit that the first half of season 8 is quite a pill to swallow for me….I didn’t like dean at all. I spent the entire first half of the season angry at him…but by the end of the second half, I understood the direction carver was headed regarding dean….I’ve posted endless posts siting that it’s all about the boys fighting their inner demons and coming to terms with who they are….season 9 was amazing and the story continued….dean’s spiral into oblivion which basically started ten years ago was finally coming into fruition…how many times has sam told dean….you can’t hold all that crap in….season ten….dean finally becomes the very thing he feared all these ten years….and now we have dean having to deal with with what he became versus who he truly is and hopefully in the end, he’ll come to understand how truly good he is and start to love who and accept who he is……
as for sam….well, his journey since show began has been one big attempt to atone for who/ what he believes himself to be because of the demon blood. we have seen sam season after season try to atone in one way or another for what he believes to be his failings….and most importantly, he’s been trying to atone to dean…who he believes sees him as the biggest disappointment of all. in s8, sam did everything dean asked of him from all those prior seasons….what’s dead should stay dead. I shouldn’t have come back. when it’s your time to go , go. how many times has sam been told this? by dean, the trickster, bobby….when sam breaks and believes his brother dead…instead of going to a crossroads, he keeps a promise the boys made to ea. other and instead grieves and mourns and lives through the pain and loss, never getting over it….all because he promised dean he wouldn’t bring him back….only to endure dean’s wrath upon his return…you left me down there….now sam struggles with disappointing his brother once again and tries to atone….all leading up to his willingness to die for what he considers to be his greatest sin….he has to endure the knowledge of what dean did, believing dean only did it because dean feared being alone…not truly understanding dean loves sam too much to let him go….and now sam is in a position to understand dean’s reasons for holding on, while dean understands sam’s for letting go….it’s beautiful symmetry told in a beautiful and personal story ……
so amen to season 8, 9 and 10 and I hope and pray carver continues to tell the story the same way for the next few years. 😉
Hi, Sugarhi15,
I love reading your comments; you have great thoughts! More and more I am ‘seeing’ and understanding just what Jeremy Carver has been doing in 8, 9, and now 10 regarding the brothers. I may not like everything, and, in fact, don’t, but I am able to see more and more the plan, especially in regards to what you stated about Sam’s choice in Season 8 to not look for Dean. It kills me that he didn’t, but I believe now that is more because of how Dean was written to have berated him over and over and over again; similar to Sam’s distance from Dean in Season 9 in the second half frustrated me. But, I’m beginning to see the point…I think.
As you said: “It’s beautiful symmetry told in a beautiful and personal story…” Well said!
Like you, I hope Carver continues on…but I’ll never stop wishing he wrote more episodes in a season!
thank you elle2. I enjoy your comments as well. The way I see it…I think carver is doing something new and refreshing that kripke never did. He’s having the boys deal with the very issues they’ve created not so long ago and in doing so, is forming a newer, more honest relationship between the boys….but more importantly, I think the boys are finally starting to understand ea. other’s perspective, where they never really did before.
the way I see it, both boys love ea. other so very deeply, but yet they show it in different ways…..where we the audience see it as a blatant example of the deep bond they share, I think the boys have misinterpreted the other based on their own misperceptions of how they ea. think the other sees them.
sam loves dean as much as dean loves sam….fact. but sam shows his love differently. sam loves dean enough to honor his wishes, no matter how painful those wishes are. sam loves dean enough to let him go, if that’s truly what dean wants. season 8 is a prime example of that. sam thought his brother dead. dean has made it quite clear on many an occasion, that once dead, he wants to stay that way. sam didn’t know dean was in purgatory because he abided dean’s wishes. he abided by dean’s wishes, though it killed him to do it, because he loved his brother that much. he loved him enough to let him go, because dean has stated he wanted it that way.
dean became angry at sam for not looking. but was it really sam he was angry at? did dean really not hear sam when he told him he thought he died? does dean not remember all the times he told sam what’s dead should stay dead? did dean forget the pact they made? I always got the feeling that dean was more angry at himself and his issues were that he felt he left cas behind. the eppy after sc, dean declared to cas that he didn’t leave him there…the very same words he used on sam. he said to sam he left him there for a girl…all the while I think dean blamed himself for leaving cas down there for a vampire. anyway, the point i’m trying to make is that I believe that dean loves sam in a different way. he loves him too tightly…enough that he can’t let him go, despite sam’s wishes, as we witness in s9. it’s just as strong a love that sam has for dean….but they show it differently.
so here we have sam, who feels as though he failed his brother even when he was following dean’s very own wishes. it’s like he’s doing it wrong….I sometimes feel as though sam might feel that he’s loving his brother the wrong way. so sam ends up feeling like a disappointment. a failure in his brother’s eyes. we see this continue in s9,….because sam is so blinded by the hurt of the deception of what dean did, he can’t see why dean did it. in the purge, sam asked what is the upside to my being alive? he saw no use for himself. he still sees himself as a disappointment to his brother….so when sam begs the question…dean’s response only further deepens his own belief of unworthiness…..dean didn’t give sam the response he needed….sam needed dean to tell him that the upside to him being alive is because sam matters….but dean’s reply was more along the lines of them hunting together, fighting the good fight….as though dean only needed sam to hunt. sam’s low opinion of himself has him misinterpreting dean’s response….now sam believes dean only saved him because he didn’t want to be alone. but the real reason is that dean loves his brother too much to let him go.
so dean’s low opinion of himself has him believing his brother doesn’t love him the same as he loves him. sam’s low self opinion has him believe that dean doesn’t love him the way he loves dean. round and round the Winchesters go…..but nay, that’s not so….because carver’s only just begun to scratch the surface…..now here in season ten, we finally have the boys wearing ea. other’s shoes…..
sam, who will not make the same mistake again, moves heaven and earth this time to find his brother. damned what anyone says or wants…sam is going to find dean. he doesn’t give a damn what demon dean says either….because sam’s not going to disappoint his brother again. he aint letting go…..he made that abundantly clear which is why dean went to cas. so now sam is the one who’s holding on tightly….even though dean may wish otherwise….and now it’s dean who’s the one ready to let go…to jump in the pit so to speak…or to move on because he’s ready…because he’d rather die than become a demon….now dean is the one who is in a situation where he’s ready to make the ultimate sacrifice and sam is the one who won’t have any of it…..
what a fantastically beautiful way for the boys to finally understand the other’s perspective….and truly understand the way ea. of them showed their love for one another, when at the time, due to their own low self esteem, they misconstrued ea. other’s feelings for disappointment or lack of love instead. dean is finally going to understand that sam letting dean go when he wished for it was in fact because he loved him so much….and now sam will understand that dean’s inability to let him go isn’t because he’s afraid of being alone, but because he truly loves sam and doesn’t want to be in a world he’s not in.
s10…..the season of discovery…the season of mutual understanding…of acceptance….and hopefully of finally appreciating who they are and seeing themselves as heroes.
this story shouldn’t be rushed. this story should be savored minute by minute, hour by hour, eppy after eppy….. and that’s what it’s been for me.
and all the while this is happening, i’m enjoying old and new characters alike, becoming part of the Winchester world. and I have no doubt that we will be seeing some old friends again….I too think Gabriel is very much alive….;)
I also wish he wrote more…hell even kripke wrote like two or three in a season….:p
Sugarhi15 – I think you are so right in your take on the brothers, and i love this post!
Gabriel IS alive, and like you, I wish Carver would write more than two episodes a season. I know he has shown he understands the relationship just by ‘Mystery Spot” and ‘Supernatural Christmas’. Two of my most favourite episodes!:) (Maybe he will even bring back the ‘Samulet’?;)
[quote] Still, despite my disinterest in two of the four main characters’ stories, I still am enjoying Season 10. [/quote]
I would enjoy season 10 a lot more if the show had two main characters like it used to.
[quote] Supernatural hit the amazing 200 episode milestone – and knocked it out of the park. I absolutely adored Fan Fiction. I had reservations, apparently so did Jensen Ackles. He talks about how he was concerned, so much so that he asked for a meeting with Jeremy Carver. Leaving Carver’s office he felt a bit better but still concerned. As luck would have it, he ran into Robbie Thompson right away and Robbie was gracious and sat down with Jensen for a conversation on the episode, telling him the whole thought behind it and what they were trying to say. When that was done, Jensen was converted. He understood. [/quote]
I don’t think it was about Robbie being gracious or Jensen being so dumb that he needed both the showrunner and the scriptwriter to explain the meaning of the episode to him. It seems that Jensen didn’t want the show to acknowledge Destiel – especially in the landmark episode – in any way.
[quote] Dean’s journey of discovery continues, and the MoC is still hanging around, but Dean has stated that he has people who love him, and that is pretty much a first for Dean to ever be so open. [/quote]
I disagree. Dean has delivered a lot of speeches over the years and by the end of 10.07 [i] Girls, Girls, Girls [/i] he tried to negate what he had revealed:
[i] Sam: What you said earlier, back there, about being past saving — were you really —
Dean: I was just telling the guy what he needed to hear. We better go. [/i]
[quote] Yes, it’s Sam on the sidelines this time watching Dean go through some things, but that’s also what’s so darn refreshing, after season after season after season of watching Dean being the one to worry. [/quote]
Sam being on the sidelines is refreshing? Wow. And wasn’t that already happening in the latter part of season nine?
I don’t think Dean was ever as sidelined as Sam is currently. Even when Dean worried about Sam, he played a more active part in the story and he interacted more with his brother and other characters than Sam does now.
Hi, SanSummer,
I think the show just doesn’t know how to balance even two leads with equal stories anymore. So we get to flip flop either the seasons for that or half seasons. Not the greatest by any mean. Definitely why Person of Interest is so compelling to me – they are able to handle four main characters with ease, but hey, that’s a different show.
As for the 200th episode…clearly you have insights that I do not have access to. First of all, I never said Jensen was dumb, so that is an insight I don’t have. Secondly, I read an interview by him when he either outright said Robbie was gracious or the writer of the article implied it, thus I incorporated it. It speaks to the respect that all of them have for each other. Third, I don’t know if Jensen outright didn’t want Destiel spoken of on the show; again, an insight you have that I do not have the benefit of. Jensen, in the interview I got this from, made it clear that he thought that this was a pretty wild and out there concept and he was concerned, singing, girls theater, and all the rest. As for Destiel, it isn’t a part of the show, but it is a part of the fandom. How it was handled was how people with differing points of view should handle things: you have your interpretation and I have mine. In the end, that’s exactly what the show said and did. It acknowledged that a portion of the fandom believes in Destiel and the show also acknowledged the creativity of fanfiction and how it goes AU with the source material. Rather than beating on the fandom for it (as I always saw the Becky character as insulting), the show acknowledged it, acknowledged that there is something beautiful in the creativity, no matter where that creativity goes, and then went on with its business of writing the show we see on our screens each week with the subsequent episodes. In other words, they said (through Dean) we see you, we love you, we love what you’re doing (Chuck’s “Not bad”) and you have your version and we have ours.
As for Dean’s denial at the end of Girls, Girls, Girls, I read that as Dean hiding again; something he does often when he gets too close to admitting his pain. But, who knows, you may be right and he could have just been negating it. We’ve certainly seen conflicting things from the characters over the years.
As for Sam sidelined, well, it’s a no win situation here. I disliked that Dean spent most of Seasons 6, 7, and 8 (once the trials began) being little more than an observer of Sam’s pain and in essence holding and wringing his hands while Sam suffered or conquered. I didn’t like it. Doesn’t mean I like that Sam’s doing it either, but it is refreshing that it’s not Dean again.
I know many don’t share that opinion, but that’s mine.
As for being coy, SamSummer, there’s no coyness going on here. I waited to respond to your post until I could process and hopefully respond in a clear manner. When I wrote to Bevie that some people are irked with my point of view it’s true. You clearly are upset with what I wrote and you’re not alone. Also, I had corresponded with another reviewer (on anohter site) who absolutely hates Season 10 and I left comments on why I liked it and she was quite upset with my POV. So, you see, there are some who are irked with my positivity. As I said to Bevie, I own my POV and they own theirs. Own your POV. I don’t dislike you for it. Nor do I think you need to go away. State your opinion. Once you put your name to it, I know it’s yours and yours alone. Feel free to have it. I don’t hold it against you.
That’s acceptance. 🙂
When the star is unhappy, of course the showrunner will try to mollify him. And especially the writer of the episode will try to get him to approve of the script.
Jensen pretty much confirmed at Burcon that Destiel was the number one reason he was concerned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82uy43yTXOs#t=212
It seems that the directing changed Jensen’s mind, not Carver or Thompson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB1jrWqAds8#t=48
And Jensen looked straight at the camera as Dean, it was not a scripted moment so it seems that even after the meeting Jensen felt the need to show the audience his own opinion of the scenario.
He even said, “— some fans who may have had some interesting, objectionable ideas about the show or maybe some complaints about the show, whatever, might wanna pay attention ’cause we might be calling you out on it,” which I found interesting because it doesn’t really fit the message Carver et al. were trying to send i.e. the 200th episode is a pure love letter to the fans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfoFrn3jhag
[quote] As for Dean’s denial at the end of Girls, Girls, Girls, I read that as Dean hiding again; something he does often when he gets too close to admitting his pain. But, who knows, you may be right and he could have just been negating it. We’ve certainly seen conflicting things from the characters over the years. [/quote]
When I first read this article, I thought that you referred to the whole speech. Later I suspected that you meant Dean had never acknowledged as openly that there are people who love him as he did in episode 10.07. So I don’t really understand why you wrote, [i] “Dean’s journey of discovery continues,” [/i] and [i] “Dean has stated that he has people who love him, and that is pretty much a first for Dean to ever be so open,” [/i] if you think that Dean was hiding again after such a short moment.
There is also another interview with Jeremy, Robbie, Misha, Jensen, Jared and Phil at the 200th episode party in L.A. I believe it is at minute 19 where Jensen talks about his meeting with Jeremy and Robbie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVGL7ovpuBc It adds a little more insight to what everyone was feeling about the episode.
thanks for that…never saw that before…awesome…..
Yes, I saw that part too. 🙂 I felt that it pretty much supported the impression that I had gotten of the situation regarding Carver, Thompson and Ackles. Of course humour was used to make light of the situation that had probably been uncomfortable.
(Jared revealed at BurCon that he feels he couldn’t speak his mind in front of the people from the studio, the network or the writers, which is understandable.)
PS. Did Carver ever insinuate that Jensen had been angry?
No, but I don’t think Jensen was angry. I think he raised some concerns about certain parts of the fandom that had misunderstood his character in his opinion. When the script came up I think both he and Jared had some reservations. As did a huge portion of the fandom. But after his meeting with Carver and talking with Thompson Jensen felt better about it all. And I think because the episode was such an enormous success and it made a bunch of favorite episodes of the year awards everyone is relieved that it was taken in the spirit it was intended. According to Jensen in the clip he apologized to both Carver and Thompson for ever doubting them. He didn’t need to do that or say anything further if he didn’t really feel that way. A lot of what is said at conventions is said in fun as well as the short carpet interviews where these guys are answering the same questions for the umpteenth time and trying to sound interesting or funny or even articulate. I can’t believe that either Jared or Jensen would ever have to worry about speaking their minds at this point. The powers in charge know who is in charge.
I think that the panel discussion at the LA party shows that Jensen having a discussion about the 200th episode with Robbie wasn’t really about Robbie being gracious. Thompson was probably worried after finding out that Jensen had called for a meeting with Carver regarding the script that Thompson had written. It’s highly unusual for Jensen to go to the writers’ offices in LA.
And I don’t think Jensen “understood” the episode because Carver and Thompson explained the message of the episode to him. It seems to me that Jensen’s concerns – the main one being the fan fiction element in the script i.e. Destiel and probably the reason he felt the need to talk face-to-face with Carver – weren’t truly alleviated until he saw the episode coming together thanks to the director. Jensen seemed to agree with Jared when Jared gave credit to the young actors etc. for changing his initial reaction to the 200th episode.
[quote] I can’t believe that either Jared or Jensen would ever have to worry about speaking their minds at this point. The powers in charge know who is in charge. [/quote]
It seems to me that Jared tried to choose his words carefully because he didn’t want to offend anyone (the writers) but I also think his quick “Just kidding” was due to not wanting to “get in trouble”.
Yes you are correct after Jensen spoke with Carver and Thompson he did feel better about his concerns. And I don’t think anyone involved with the show for one minute doubt who has to be happy. The show rises and sets with Jensen and Jared. I think that is pretty much a given. Otherwise I don’t think either Carver or Thompson would have cared how Jensen felt or tried to alleviate his concerns. As I said Jensen didn’t have to apologize. At that point when the L.A. party interview was done the episode hadn’t aired yet. They had just watched the episode with a small group of very lucky fans. They didn’t know yet how it was going to be received. After the episode aired of course there was nothing but adulation for it. And then of course Jensen and Jared could see that the fans got it and loved it.
Hi, SanSummer,
Upon reflection — even more — I find Dean’s speech in Girls, Girls, Girls to be a parallel of sorts to his spech/actions at the end of Reichenbach; there, Demon Dean made it clear to Sam that by leaving Cole alive, beaten but alive, he was doing the worst possible thing to the man. Dean’s intentions were cruel. In Girls, Girls, Girls, human Dean was saying words that would hopefully ease cole’s pain and ultimately save his life (by getting out of hunting) and thus it shows the comparisons as this Dean cared that Cole be all right. Also, Dean is rarely comfortable with being open and vulnerable, and his words made him just that. So, when Sam wanted to talk about it further, Dean brusquely pushed it away by negating it…a defensive movement.
So who knows who has the correct interpretation, and really, in the end, does it even matter? I enjoyed both Dean moments for what they were. I hope you did too, no matter how they’re interpreted. :p
Thanks for asking me to clarify. Who knows, I may read someone’s take on it and change my mind again. It’s all fun.
The reason I addressed the point in the first place was that I would not give season ten credit for Dean being more open than ever. I think Dean was more open even back in episode 1.16 [i] Shadow[/i], for instance. There have been past moments when he couldn’t try to take back his words and he couldn’t try to claim that his speech had been about the other person.
Thanks for the reply!
I am not going to say I agree with your assessment that Sam being on the sidelines is refreshing and neither does it do Sam any favours , it never has done it never will . I left last season resenting both the treatment of Sam and the brothers relationship , so Sam learning to know who he is as Dean’s brother is not something I believe should be the result of the events that happened but rather a challenging of Dean’s behaviour towards Sam. But the path they have chosen to tell the story is not one personally I wanted for Sam or the outcome of last seasons actions.
Hi, Sharon,
I agree with last treatment of both the brothers’ relationship — it was not something I enjoyed at all. Also, while I am beginning to get an understanding of what Carver et al are trying to do and say in regards to Sam, and specifically what they were trying to say at the beginning of Season 8 (not looking for Dean and falling in love and blah, blah, blah) it’s still a pretty good sore spot for me. Not that I’m “upset with Sam” but how he was written. I gather Carver was trying to conclude the Leviathan thing completely off camera (aside from them attaching in Purgatory) and thus the year time jump, but still, couldn’t they have had Sam searching and expending all his energies for six months or so until out of sheer exhaustion and near death by not taking care of himself he hit the dog and then Amelia appeared (still lame in my book admittedly) I don’t know. To me, Sam at the beginning of Season 8 read like a scared little boy and that is not the Sam I know and love. I kinda get what they were doing — it’s still like grasping at fog though — but I still don’t like it.
What I most love about Season 10 Sam is that he is so unburdened, so focused, so knows who he is and what he’s doing. I guess I get much of that from listening to Jared at Cons talk about how he is playing Sam in Season 10; this is how Jared sees Sam and he really likes it, so I’m just caught up in his excitement for his character.
🙂
“What I most love about Season 10 Sam is that he is so unburdened, so focused, so knows who he is and what he’s doing. I guess I get much of that from listening to Jared at Cons talk about how he is playing Sam in Season 10; this is how Jared sees Sam and he really likes it, so I’m just caught up in his excitement for his character.”
1) Of the 2 million viewers, how many fans actually ever either get to a con or view the panels on youtube. If that’s where you’re getting your understanding of S10 Sam, then it just emphasizes the failure of what is shown on TV.
2) IMHO, (as I have said before) Jared is a team player, and a really, really generous and supportive person. I don’t think we’ll ever know what he HONESTLY thinks of this version of Sam. (I got suckered into season 8, by Jared’s excitement for THAT version of Sam- and he has since admitted he didn’t like the Amelia story line)
Hi, st50,
I laughed at myself when I read your comment. See, here I was trying to clarify, and all I did was manage to make more mud. Yes, I watch YouTube after a Con, well, when I can, so I probably get about 10 percent of what’s out there — which, yes, is more than a lot of people get. But, yes, I watch it and I do pick up little insights. Here I was trying to clarify and all I did was add mud and stir. The truth is, as I’ve stated here and other articles, my favorite seasons are the first 3, and despite nightmares and visions and unknown powers, that Sam was just lighter. That is the Sam I adore and I see him peeking through in many ways again in Season 3. I love it. I’ll not be ashamed to say that I love that Sam. It’s not to say I don’t like the other seasons of Sam, and yes, characters do (hopefully) grow, change, develop, what have you, but Season 10 Sam is more like 1, 2, and 3 for me, and I truly love it.
Yes, Jared has always come across as a team player and a very generous person. I also said that in my original article of why I was optimistic (the one I wrote over the summer) that his excitement for Jensen and demon Dean was one of the reasons I was excited.
I didn’t know he commented that he disliked the Amelia storyline, so thanks for that insight. I think there is something of excitement over the potential of a story’s direction and then review, once filming is over and there is a chance to process all that occurred that can then cause someone to change their mind. Whether that’s what happened for Jared in regards to Season 8 or not, I have no idea. So, I’ll take it at face value for what it’s worth now, he’s stated he’s excited to play this version of Sam — it may that when it all ends up where it’s headed, he changes his mind. For now he’s excited (well, as of a few months ago that is) and for now, I’m enjoying it. Hey, I enjoyed Exile on Main Street…what came ofter it, not so much. 😉
Hope I didn’t make more mud, but that’s what I get for not being clear — and really, just ’cause I know what’s in my mind doesn’t mean you do. If I don’t put it down on the screen, how are you to know. LOL
That’s supposed to say I see Sam peeking through in Season 10, not Season 3. Where is the edit key? :p
[quote]that Sam was just lighter.[/quote]The difference is that Sam was lighter and the stories being told now are sam-lite.
I always thought what sam did in s8 made perfect sense and I never thought it out of character. I just know that I’ve been watching the seasons over and all the episodes flow into ea. other….and it’s like reading a book….ea. episode is a chapter in their lives and ea. chapter is part of their story…their biography…which I personally find compelling and downright delicious. 😀 I’ve never for a second felt either brother sidelined as they are two sides of the same coin…two halves of a whole…and together they are a complete unit….what happens to one, happens to the other….I guess i’m easy…one of my favorite qualities about dean is his attitude towards sam….and how important it is that sam is ok. I think sam and dean are a support system…the role they play for ea. other the crux of what makes this show great.
as for sam in s8..if one were to watch s6 you would see the crack in sam’s foundation and s7 you would see the crack get larger and larger to where he finally breaks. sam spent over a century in hell and the wall that was to protect him broke….do you remember what dean was like after just 40 years? sam almost died. he literally was losing touch with reality. he had Lucifer inside his head for a very long time. levi sam said it…he said he wanted a more stable body. he can’t believe this one was still functioning at all. we were informed how bad off sam was….and in the slice girls….sam at the end of the eppy…he looked dean square in the face and told him…just don’t die. he was practically begging dean not to leave him. sam loses bobby. he’s losing himself. then loses bobby again….and the only reason he was able to hold it together was because of dean….then he loses dean…and sam shatters…..he said it…he imploded . he ran. we saw in flash backs how bad off sam was. we saw how unhinged he was even with Amelia. and Amelia wasn’t about love. Amelia was a way for sam to focus on something other than his pain. it was a way to stay sane. she was an anchor that kept him from drifting away…helping her helped him. he told Amelia she saved his life and I believe she did. I don’t think he was in love with her…but I think he loved what she did for him. I think he’ll be forever grateful to her. he left her even before he knew dean was alive….if it was true love, husband or no..sam would’ve chosen her. he knew he couldnt’ run anymore..so he headed back to the one place that held the memories of those he lost…and loved…he went back to the cabin.
the story from that point on is the journey back to ea. other. it’s a rough ride of course….dean has his issues of low self esteem/sam has his and as such we get a lot of misunderstanding between them and thus the eventual situation we have now. this is an important part of their journey though. important lessons are being learned. they are communicating now. they are honest with ea. other now. they’re not burying their crap anymore…especially dean, who is quite literally being forced to deal with his fears and his inner demons….as I said, they’re roles are reversed now and they are ea. coming to understand what it was like for the other….and why they feel as they do….and with that I am confident that these boys will accept not only who they are, but accept the other….I mean really understand where the other is coming from and accept it….their support system/ brotherly bond will in turn become stronger. this is the path we are currently on now in s10. I look forward to the seasons to come, where the boys, these men they are now, will treat and see ea. other as equal partners..
needless to say….I am thoroughly enjoying sam’s turn at being the caretaker. he’s earned that right. it’s time for dean to see sam as the capable man he is, instead of the little brother he’s been taking care of his whole life. it’s time to let go…..let go of the boy and see the man. this is an important part of their journey as well. 😉
jmo of course. 🙂
Sugarhi15, such insights — sure you don’t want to write on the site? 🙂
I did manage this summer to binge watch through Supernatural thanks to TNT’s repeats and my DVR. I would watch three eps a night so I was cramming in a lot of SPN…for me, that is. I did really see how much Sam was cracking when he told Dean: Just don’t die. He was really getting quite frantic. You’re right. That insight does inform Sam’s choices at the beginning of Season 8 better, so thank you for reminding me of that.
As always, your posts are a joy to read!
I agree with all you have to say Elle2, thank you. With the exception of I really like “Hammer of the Gods” 😉 and enjoy it every time I see it (except for Gabriel getting killed, of course! I just tell myself it is one more of his tricks?) ;);):p
Hi, Bevie,
I believe, I believe, I believe that Gabriel/Trickster was just having a very good con on us in Hammer of the Gods. And, if you go to Fangasm and scroll through a bit, you’ll find an interview they did with Richard Speight and he gives quite compelling reasons to believe, based on what we saw in Metafiction, that Gabriel is still very much alive. :):D;)
Elle,
loved your input as road so far and also that even if you like a certain part you understand why also there is not only that. I truly want to give credit about that thinking because it is not that common.
I have liked this season so far. I like the brothers but I enjoy all the characters because they belong to the their world. And most of all as some know I am really bad with spoilers but I am in a point now that I can’t really guess what comes next on the story and I see that as a good thing. I want to be surprised. I know some rumors that get me exited but I don’t know how they come to place. I guess I will need to follow where ever the story takes me. 🙂
– Lilah
Hi, Lilah,
Thank you for your lovely words. I do try to be accepting: just because I don’t like something, doesn’t mean others don’t, and also, just because I love something, doesn’t mean everyone does. I know some really don’t like Sam this season feeling and/or believing he has nothing substantial in the terms of a story, but I am so thrilled with seeing this Sam so unburdened — other than for his earlier actions and concern over Dean, and more importantly than that, that Sam is actually here, that I just can’t find it in myself to dislike what’s going on. To me, Season 6 didn’t even give us the real Sam until halfway through, and then he was so burdened with guilt as memories leaked in and then the wall utterly cracked and he was a near vegetable, that I missed him, but there was nowhere to go to find him, and Season 7 simply carried that further. So, I know some are irked, and some are irked at me because I like it, but really, that’s all about different people having different tastes. I own my likes, not their dislikes and vice versa.
Like you, I try to follow where the story takes me. At times, I don’t like the journey very much at all, but I have gritted my teeth, mostly kept my mouth shut — because why ruin someone else’s happiness, and happily, I am rewarded with this season. I’m looking forward to its return in three plus weeks — and beginning to get tired of the wait…but that’s good too!
🙂
The wait should be stabbed with a rusty spoon I say. 😉
– Lilah
[quote]I know some really don’t like Sam this season feeling and/or believing he has nothing substantial in the terms of a story,[/quote]Since you compared it to Dean’s situation in earlier season Dean was never and I mean never sidelined so completely .Dean, when sam had the mytharc was not standing around while Sam had conversations with the recurring characters…cole..why?didn’t Sam have any issues with him…If Sam is the forgiving one they do not mention it on the show..As fans it does not matter what I say unless it is said on the show…We have got confirmations about Dean’s big heart *retch* but when it comes to Sam the show is silent.If they do not get Sam to be more involved in the story (not the mytharc ..the supernatural episodes I see) it will have a bad imbalance of Dean having both interactions and mytharc while Sam stands behind and interjects with one sentences (cole? anyone) or facial responses while Dean prattles on.
Sorry for being a little strong worded…I have to get it out
The simplest thing I want to say is I do not want Sam to react how Dean would have reacted..frankly if Dean does not understand that Sam loves him then he can go to hell (again).The one sided judging by the characters has become tiresome.While sam is derided for being selfish Dean has a big heart.While deans motivations were shown while he took on the mark Sam were shown in I know what you did last summer and by then the show was too late.
I after season 5 i wanted the Sam to have interactions and Dean mytharc but my one apprehension was while Dean will get the mytharc Sam will not get involved in this story and season 10 has made this true.Many of them comment Sam is an introvert or that he does not interact ..but Sam in the show has stepped up to the plate when Dean could not …so that reasoning flows right out the window.
unburdened==sidelined
worrying==sidelined (Dean worried but was not sidelined..for 4 seasons Dean was unburdened with mytharc but was not sidelined)
Phew finally said it.
The story has always been told through Dean the only difference now is he has the mytharc on top of what he already has . Dean was never reliant on the mytharc to be at the forefront of the story where Sam is reliant on the mytharc that is what he was wriitten for from the beginning it is why his pov is sporadic . But this season is like Marmite anyway .
I never saw this story being told through sam or dean…..I always saw this story being told by God…chuck…and I still believe that. 😉
It still has to be told through someone or something though whether it is a person or a book.
[quote]I never saw this story being told through sam or dean[/quote]If the way Sam’s time when Dean was in purgatory was told is any indication then the story is told through Dean.Even now the initial moments after Dean’s disappearance is not shown.
Hi, Anonymous,
First off, good for you for writing and as you said : “Phew finally said it.” It feels good to say what’s on your mind.
Yeah, this show does have a hard time balancing. I’ve given up hoping that it will balance better — took me long enough. 😉
I too have a big problem with how little Sam reacted to Cole and how come the brothers never even talked about it. That frustrates me a lot, but I have to roll with it and move on. Also, as I said in my review of A Very Supernatural Christmas (next article on the queue) Sam is the character I most identify with personally and that’s why I look past a lot of things — because it hits really close to home for me. So, here I go with a little vulnerability here — and hope I don’t get eaten alive:
Like Sam, I’d see the whole death of Mary and life as a hunting family as my fault because YED dripped blood into baby Sam’s mouth. I’m the kind that takes that burden on. Similarly, once I’ve been hurt so badly in that manner, I’d pretty much shut down and speak very carefully. Thus, Sam often stays on the outside because as a child he didn’t feel like he fit in, and when he went to college and tried to reinvent himself, it all came crashing down and the one he loved died horribly. That scars you. Some people are able to get past it and live and love again; others, like me, cannot.
I wish Sam interacted more with other characters — one of the reasons I adore Sheriff Mills is because she and Sam are so close and have shared conversations and battles. I wish there were more. Bobby was close, but even Jim Beaver commented that in the early seasons he had more conversations with Jensen’s character than Jared’s. Ellen might have gotten there, after all, she and Sam shared a bit in Hunted, but alas, Ellen disappeared and then died too soon.
As for the mytharc, well, this season’s is said to come very, very slowly — and it sure is living up to that promise. I still like it because it appears very personal and not quite so end of the world and all which a low-budget show with 22 to 23 episodes can’t carry off well. In my opinion, Season 4 was the best in that regard, but since it carried on into season 5 with the culmination, even then it staggered and stumbled.
Those are some of my thoughts on why I like it. I’m not trying to change your mind. I’m just trying to show you more into mine.
Thanks for your comments. I hope you feel a bit better for having said what you wanted to say. 🙂
Carver said that the story is going to creep up on us and we won’t see it coming. I think the slow burn this season is giving us clues we will only see once it’s over. I am dam curious.
amen sister. 😀
[quote][/quote]I too have a big problem with how little Sam reacted to Cole and how come the brothers never even talked about it. That frustrates me a lot, but I have to roll with it and move on. Also, as I said in my review of A Very Supernatural Christmas (next article on the queue) Sam is the character I most identify with personally and that’s why I look past a lot of things — because it hits really close to home for me. So, here I go with a little vulnerability here — and hope I don’t get eaten alive:
I understand the desire for sam to interact with cole, but I thought at that moment there really wasn’t time for him to do so. there was a point to the conversation dean had with cole and it was something sam meant to hear. it was a special moment, I felt, not between cole and dean, but sam and dean by use of cole. this is not the end of cole. he is coming back this season and I for one have no doubt that sam and cole will be interacting with ea other again…..maybe, just maybe the reason we see cole again…will be a common bond between sam and cole…..whatever the reason, there is no doubt in my mind that sam and cole will have their moment…whatever that might entail…. just because the moment didn’t happen when it was desired, doesn’t mean it won’t happen at all. 😉 as axl so well put it….sometimes all you need is a little patience…..or as George Michael so aptly said….you gotta have faith:D
as for balance…I never had a problem with it. they split the mytharc by years…dean goes to hell. sam goes to hell. dean goes to purgatory..sam lives again in a hell on earth. ea. brother gets their moment in the sun…or in this case…the pits of doom….but all the while it’s truly about ea. other….because as I said, they are two halves of a whole. 😉
as for sam interacting with others… he has started to open up and even call upon cas. Also I have to say that I find it interesting and endearing that most of his moments of sharing have all been with women. I can’t help but wonder if that has to do more with his need to fill the role of a mother he never had….dean seems to open up to males. wonder if that has to do with his father…bobby, cas all significantly older than dean…kind of like his dad. the only one they both seem to open up to equally is Charlie…but they both agree that she’s like the sister they never wanted. 😀 just a thought anyway.
[quote][/quote].We have got confirmations about Dean’s big heart *retch* but when it comes to Sam the show is silent.
this is not about sam vs dean….but I have to disagree that dean is shown to have heart while sam’s is shown to be silent. sam has always put others before himself. he’s always been about the innocents. he’s prevented dean from killing quite a few humans, let alone monsters that were not evil. he jumped in the pit to save the world. he put his broken psyche together so as not to leave his brother alone, he was willing to die again to close the gates of hell….and sam has by far got the biggest heart when it comes to his brother….the hits he takes from dean. the patience he has with dean. the love he has shown for dean. year after year after year. and now sam is once again trying to save his brother’s life….and we have like 14 eps left for sam to do whatever it takes to free his brother of the mark. and we already know that he’s done very unsamlike things already all because he loves his brother and nothing was stopping him from finding him. i’m sorry, but when it comes to heart…if one is going to put sam and dean’s on a scale….it’s an even balance there. sam’s heart isn’t silent at all, it’s as loud and glaring as dean’s is….I for one hear it loud and clear and always have. I find sam’s heart to be deafening to the ear, it’s so loud. phew…just had to get that out as well. 😀
[quote][/quote]When the star is unhappy, of course the show runner will try to mollify him. And especially the writer of the episode will try to get him to approve of the script.
Jensen has made it quite clear that he doesn’t support the notion of shipping. He’s made it clear that if he just ignores it, it doesn’t exist. Smart because out of sight out of mind works. My point is that if we the fandom are aware then I think it’s pretty safe to say the ptb are aware as well. I don’t imagine that the show runner or the writers will do anything that will make the boys feel uncomfortable, especially when they raise their concerns in person. I don’t think carver and Thompson were simply trying to mollify Jensen, I don’t think they were surprised at all at Jensen’s concerns and were most likely expecting it. the whole notion of a musical would likely have caused concern to both boys….and i’m sure the ptb were prepared and knew exactly what they were doing.
you gotta understand that this very special episode is a love letter to the fans…not just a portion of the fans….but like it or not …all of the fans, and that happens to include shippers. to promote an eppy as a love letter to the fans and then shun a portion of them, would’ve likely caused a rucus among the shippers. with social media as it is, i’m sure there would’ve been negative tweets and blogs and articles surrounding the milestone ep. Carver and co. had to include everyone all the while making sure jared and Jensen were comfortable with the script. I think he and Robbie did a damn fine job in balancing that particular task.
we got an episode, that not only included every fan, but it managed, in a very tactful and classy way to make it absolutely clear that shipping is and always will be fan fiction only. not only did the writer make it clear through dean and humorously through sam, but Jensen made it clear as well with his little adlibbed expression towards the audience.
in the end everyone was happy and the show succeeded in it’s goal. the 200th episode knocked it out of the park. it’s received nothing but praise by fans and reviewers alike. show’s gotten more press this year than when we started. and our viewership has risen …..
so all in all, I think our little show that could..not only did…but is keeping on keeping on….and i’m proud to be a part of it.
[quote] just because the moment didn’t happen when it was desired, doesn’t mean it won’t happen at all[/quote]None of the moments I wanted with regards to Sam have happened regarding Sam post Carver…You are not the first one to say this..all were proved wrong..heck they deleted many Sam related scenes.[quote] but sam and dean by use of cole.[/quote]regarding Dean and not Sam.[quote]they are two halves of a whole.[/quote]Now one is a huge chunk and the other is a much much smaller part.[quote]but I have to disagree that dean is shown to have heart while sam’s is shown to be silent.[/quote]Castiel told Dean…who has told Sam?the only things I see is Charlie talking about Sam’s unluck with ladies..garth and his offensive intro..who has praised Sam? (other than Dean)[quote] Also I have to say that I find it interesting and endearing that most of his moments of sharing have all been with women.[/quote]I do not.The gender is irrelevant to me u.The only thing which matters to me is whether we learn something about Sam.[quote]sam has always put others before himself. he’s always been about the innocents. he’s prevented dean from killing quite a few humans, let alone monsters that were not evil. he jumped in the pit to save the world. he put his broken psyche together so as not to leave his brother alone, he was willing to die again to close the gates of hell….and sam has by far got the biggest heart when it comes to his brother….the hits he takes from dean. the patience he has with dean. the love he has shown for dean. year after year after year. and now sam is once again trying to save his brother’s life….and we have like 14 eps left for sam to do whatever it takes to free his brother of the mark. and we already know that he’s done very unsamlike things already all because he loves his brother and nothing was stopping him from finding him. i’m sorry, but when it comes to heart…if one is going to put sam and dean’s on a scale….it’s an even balance there. sam’s heart isn’t silent at all, it’s as loud and glaring as dean’s is….I for one hear it loud and clear and always have. I find sam’s heart to be deafening to the ear, it’s so loud. phew…just had to get that out as well.[/quote](Edited by Alice. This sentence is disrespectful and too harsh). I am a Sam fan ..and I can tell about Sam even better (There are even more eloquent Sam fans who can do a better job than me)things but it does not matter in the canon of the show.In show we have Charlie and Garth and the conversations he had with Jody when Dean disappeared …lol which conversations? They did not even bother to show it.Dean’s conversations bucketload..Sam’s would easily fit in a thimble…[quote]I find sam’s heart to be deafening to the ear,[/quote]I don’t.The din on the show which other characters create is so loud that Sam is just lost in it.I identify with Sam ..I see what Sam has done what he says and with what little we are given try to guess..my guess is as good as any other fan’s ..unless some things are unequivocally told by the show that Sam was right and whatever cooked up things other character manages to think and tell about Sam is wrong ON THE SHOW ..not in cons..not in interviews ..but on the show I will not be satisfied.
“I too have a big problem with how little Sam reacted to Cole….”
How about how little Cole reacted to Sam? Like…..Hey, dude… I realize I just threatened to kill you, beat you severely, (and probably would’ve finished you off if not for that phone call) even though you were just an innocent bystander in my beef with your brother -…. so…. Sorry?
NO ONE – not even Dean – acknowledges the sh*t that Sam goes through? No one apologizes, or acknowledges he even exists as an individual person – unless it’s to bring up his faults. (with the possible exception of Jodi)
Hi st50
I want to acknowledge your post, but know there is very little I can say that will brighten your thoughts in this regard. I’m sorry you see the show that way, but I understand and respect that you do see it that way. I too adore Jodi and Sam’s interactions — they are phenomenal! In fact, those episodes she is in I DVR and watch her and Sam moments over and over again because they are so rich. I do see that Dean has always seen the crap that Sam goes through — but you don’t, and that’s your POV. Mine is different. Ah well, that’s life. 😉
I hope you continue to watch the show and I hope that you continue to find enjoyment here and anywhere else you may go to participate in the fandom. And I do hope that sugarhi15 is correct and that we will see Cole again and see him interact with Sam. Whether that brings an apology…well, only time will tell. I am grateful you commented. Thank you.
See the problem is, ST, that all the most recent crap that Sam has been through includes:
Sam being tortured by someone purely to get to his brother. (and fun was made over of Sam’s broken arm by his brother as a result)
His brother in a nearly human state trying to kill Sam with an axe. He also said some truly hideous things, that Sam already believes about himself. (He has not addressed any of this with Sam in any way and according to everyone involved with the show none of it will be addressed at all.)
Sam having been recently allowed, by someone he trusted, to be unknowingly possessed by an angel who then killed Sam’s friend….
Months thinking he was more of a freak than he normally feels because the person who knew better didn’t tell him otherwise (and who KNEW what he was putting Sam through)
Watching his brother die due to a decision that same brother made without ANY consideration of the potential problems.
Having his abilities and his leadershiip skills completely undermined in a ‘dictatorship’ because he is an ‘infant’
Having to abandon all of his ethical boundaries to try to rescue Dean because nothing less would be satisfactory or forgivable later on
Having the fallout from that fall from (hard won) grace looming over him.
So I guess it is impossible for Dean to acknowledge the crap that Sam has been through because then he would have to acknowledge his part in it. So the show writes the episodes and then completely fails to follow through on any of the after-effects. Some say that it is all an intricate and extensive 3 season arc that will fit together … I no longer see the evidence of that.
The show is roundly ignoring the effect these events have on Sam as a person except to make him laser focused on Dean’s survival, Dean’s wants and Dean’s needs and being the perfect soldier/brother that Dean seems to think he has failed to be all this time. This is being applauded as being the lesson that Sam should have learned all these years. Sam is however supposedly a ‘real’ person. As Dean is supposed to be a ‘real’ person. If the show can no longer write them as real people (BOTH of them) and show how they are embedded in their universe then it is past time they stopped writing the show.
I haven’t seen the last 2 episodes but as I understand it Sam the ‘focused, central character so like the Sam from seasons 1-3’ might just as well not have been in the mid-season finale for all the purpose he had in it.
I don’t even remotely think that Sam will get an acknowledgement for what he went through with Cole. I think Dean and Cole will have a bonding session in an episode similar to the one between Benny and Dean from season 8. As a result of which Cole will be killed most likely.
The Cole debacle is the reason I have stopped watching the show and you have summed up what has happened beautifully.
I am sure when nappi’s prediction of Cole acknowledging what he did to Sam as being bloody awful (which will put him on top of the list of ‘people who have apologized to Sam’ – since he will be the only person ON the list) comes true someone will let me know so I can see if I want to start watching again 😉
“So I guess it is impossible for Dean to acknowledge the crap that Sam has been through because then he would have to acknowledge his part in it. “
Aye, eilf, there’s the rub.
I agree that Dean has SEEN – and continues to SEE – the crap that Sam has been through. He USED TO (pre season 8) ACKNOWLEDGE and try to understand the effects of it, too. Right through season 7, I thought the brothers attempted to understand each others experiences. (Not always successfully, but at least they put in a bit of effort).
I think there was a bit of acknowledgement/understanding from Dean through the second half of season 8 about what the trials were doing to Sam physically, but … then it was dropped.
Until the writers follow through on some of these plotlines – ALL the way through…allowing both Sam and Dean to actually address what they each have been through…. how can there be growth for either character?
Some have hope it’ll still happen, and that’s wonderful.
Different POVs, and that is indeed life.
Thanks, elle2, for acknowledging my post. 😉
Well not everything is a point of view**. Admittedly a lot of things on the show are – which is why discussing it used be fun. But some things are just facts that it is easier to ignore, (especially when the show does, after the fact).
As I understand it Dean’s sympathy and kind behaviour to Sam (along with being a bad-ass fighter, rescuing Sam in every fight, making all the decisions and bonding with all and sundry) during the trials is ‘Dean sidelined to be a nursemaid’ so the show really can’t win there. Not surprised it is back to ‘hur hur, fancy a HUMAN breaking your arm, you wimp.'(yes I know that isn’t exactly what he said but it is late here …*goes and looks it up* oh right, he said: That sling come with a slice of crybaby pie on the side?)
**See Sam for details (sorry couldn’t resist :p)
Hi ST50
“I think there was a bit of acknowledgement/understanding from Dean through the second half of season 8 about what the trials were doing to Sam physically, but … then it was dropped.
Until the writers follow through on some of these plotlines – ALL the way through…allowing both Sam and Dean to actually address what they each have been through…. how can there be growth for either character?
Some have hope it’ll still happen, and that’s wonderful.
Different POVs, and that is indeed life.
Thanks, elle2, for acknowledging my post. ;)”
First off, I copied and pasted a bit from above that I agree with. Over the seasons there has been a lot of stop and start with storylines, emotional as well as actual (I’m thinking the souls trapped in the veil, unable to get into heaven, as an actual storyline just to differentiate it from the emotional ones. I do agree, the dropping and never speaking of these things again is to the detriment of growth. Spot on insights from you there. 🙂
As for the rest, you are most welcome for acknowledging your post. I love to read others thoughts and see how they view things. It’s fun and it definitely helps pass the hiatus. 🙂
[quote]I am sure when nappi’s prediction of Cole acknowledging what he did to Sam as being bloody awful [/quote]i dont think any of nappi’s predictions have come true but if this one does i will be happy.
[quote]First off, good for you for writing and as you said : “Phew finally said it.” It feels good to say what’s on your mind.[/quote]I have debating with myself for sometime to say or not to say what I feel..i even stopped commenting for some time asI did not want to be hasty[quote] I’ve given up hoping that it will balance better [/quote]The saddest thing is the balance has become worser and Sam is the overall loser.[quote]but I have to roll with it and move on.[/quote]I simply cannot as we a get a buffet regarding Dean.[quote]I wish Sam interacted more with other characters[/quote]Sam used to now he does not even interact with the one episode wonders where we are given insight regarding Sam.
Sam is my favourite so much so that i would like to have most of the qualities he has.[quote]Similarly, once I’ve been hurt so badly in that manner, I’d pretty much shut down and speak very carefully. [/quote]Because this is a show it falls on the writers to show what Sam is thinking.I too am like Sam …as in most of the times I am very careful in what I say..but the thing i have found is some times enough is simply enough.[quote] but since it carried on into season 5 with the culmination, even then it staggered and stumbled.
[/quote]I loved season 4 and 5 completely
Why are they irked at us because we like it this season? Just don’t understand that. Just be irked among yourselves and let us enjoy what we enjoy. Isn’t there still a place to go here when fans are irked?:p
But anyway, I too am just loving Sammy to death this season. He’s been so filled with guilt and despairing of ever doing anything right that he even wants to die, and gets angry at being saved! Now he’s gung ho the Sammy that once was many seasons ago, saving his brother and being at peace with who he is as Dean’s brother and an excellent hunter able to help and save countless others. Bravo! Loving the relationship like it was in the first three seasons. Still the seasons I most ENJOY watching over and over! So, GO SAMMY!
Thank you for your positivism. Much appreciated!
Edited by Alice – This comment inappropriate for the subject matter and it’s being oversensitive.
And you are welcome to that pov as I should be to mine .And no disrespect but Dean fans and others maybe getting the Sam they have wanted but how we have got here is not for me . I loved the brothers relationship in the earlier seasons while there was still a modicum of respect for Sam but the one we have now is no-where near that .
Elle2 I just want to express how much I appreciate your balanced reviews. They are so well thought out and I for one look forward to them after every episode. I love the articles you have posted to help us all get through this mini hellatus. Even though we sometimes differ on an episode here or there your love and enthusiasm for the show is infectious. Have a Happy New Year! I look forward to the rest of the season and your reviews.
Cherly142, as I’ve said before expressing enthusiasm and hoping stirring up enthusiasm in others is why I write. I’m glad you enjoy my reviews. I enjoy doing them.
SanSummer1 – No offense intended here (edited by Alice). I’m sure Elle means no disrespect or slight of any kind. It appears to me that she is doing an outstanding job of considering everyone’s feelings while still expressing her own.
(Edited by Alice)
I
Sugerhi15 – I hope I got your “name” correct, I’m having monster issues getting this to post!!!! – love, love, love your insight into Seasons 8-10!!! You broke it down so simply. It was a pleasure to read! I too have never had a problem understanding Sams break and run and you explained it so well maybe others will see why it made sense. [quote][/quote]
At first I got a bit of a us vs. them vibe. Articles are supposed to be for everyone to read and comment on so I didn’t find that sort of mentality to be appropriate.
Hi, SanSummer1,
Well, I’ll chime in here to hopefully help you understand me a bit better – and also let you know that I am only too well aware how the written word carries absolutely no inflection, so you can’t “hear’ me softening my voice, or hesitating or in anyway try to nuance what I say. (BTW, in real life, I’m a court reporter/stenographer, so I see firsthand how people’s testimony comes across in a vocal manner and then how dry and lifeless it appears on paper and how anyone can read into it a different tone.) But, I do not take an us versus them stance, ever. My comments about people being irked were nothing more than an accurate reflection of comments I read from fans (here and elsewhere) as well as my own personal experiences.) If I need to speak to you directly about something, I’ll direct it to you. 🙂
I may not agree with everything everyone writes, but who does? No one I know of. I try to listen and if I have something to say I add to it. You can always come out and directly — and I hope always politely 🙂 — ask me to clarify. If you think I’m ganging up anyone, please simply ask. I may take a day or two to answer, and I may even miss the comment, although I try to be very studious in making sure I respond to everyone. If you’re kind enough (or brave enough) to take the time to leave a comment, I try my hardest to respond. It may take time, I have a full-time job (more than full-time thankfully) and three furry four-legged children who need a lot of my time, but I do try to answer. So, I’m glad you commented and I’m glad I was able to clarify. Hopefully, if I write more and you and I meet on the site more often, you’ll come to know that I’m never looking to beat on anyone. That I can’t stand and I try very, very hard never to do it. I read every article here and even comment on some of them. I agree with your assessment, the articles are here for everyone and everyone is welcome to discuss. I will always try to clarify if I can, and then there I times I know that someone is so committed to their POV that anything more for me to say, and anyway, I’m not here to change anyone’s POV or embarrass. Like you, I’m a fan — sometimes a frustrated one, but still a fan. If that’s how someone sees the show, whatever the issue may be or POV, who am I to say they’re wrong? The answer: no one. 😉
So I hope I see you commenting on any future articles I write. It’s not always easy to express oneself clearly. I try, but even as read and reread and edit, tear apart and then start all over again just about every article I write, there is almost always a moment when I discover (after it’s posted of course) that my stream of conscious got way ahead of my typing and my thoughts are not clearly laid out. Ah well, the joys of writing, amateur that I am notwithstanding. 😉
See you around the boards.
Elle2 – Great article as usual. Long time lurking, first time posting. Appreciate how you guys put so much thought into them!
Hi, AlyCat22,
Thanks for posting. I know what it’s like to be a long-time lurking…there are some boards (for this show and a couple others) that all I do is lurk. HAH! But then when you dive in, you find that it can be fun. Glad you liked the article. Sometimes it’s a lot of fun to look deeper into the episodes and explore. Also, it gives me creative license that is no where accessible to me in my actual job, so it’s a great refresher for me personally.
Elle and Sugarhi15 – I have to ask – do either of you write fan fic cause I would love to read it if you do!!!
thank you alycat22, I really appreciate that you take the time to read what I have to say. I don’t write fan fiction. But I’ve been on this site for quite awhile now. Most recently I changed my name to sugarhi15 because I never really liked my original handle. One thing I can tell you and those here who have read my posts know….I do tend to ramble on. Some have even joked that when they do read my posts it’s with a cup of coffee and a snack in tow:D. If you ever get bored and you go through old articles, I have many a verbose post under the name nappi815. I must warn you though, not only are they long, but i do spend a lot of time portraying the Winchesters and their story in a positive light. I am a strong defender of the Winchester brothers, mostly being a sam girl, i’m a very big defender of sam. There is many a post I’ve written, especially s8-now that, well, are most definitely, if you are willing to read, might require a cup of joe and possibly a snack…:D
i don’t know how you lean as a fan, but i will warn you that my positive outlook could tend to be quite annoying as i’m sure it is to some here….but alas, i’m a glass half full type…i love this show, i love my boys and i’m damn easy to please….i don’t let the small stuff bother me and i go with the flow..
but i do appreciate all those who do take the time to read what i have to say…whether they agree with me or get totally pissed off at me….they do take personal time to read my thoughts…and trust me when i say, it doesn’t go unnoticed by me and i really appreciate it.
hope to see more of your posts…;) don’t be afraid of us in here…our bark is much worse than our bite. 😀
To the person having a issue maybe the ‘small stuff’ is not so small. I think the vocalized issues that people have expressed are as valid as the half glass full thoughts ( and I use to have those once), I cannot change my feelings on my issues around Sam which are a part of the show as much has anything positive . If I was the only one seeing problems I might think it was just me and maybe I was getting it wrong but considering I am not then there must be something there we are seeing.
doesn’t look like anyone here is having any issues with anything…. and certainly nobody here is having any issues with anyone’s opinions… everyone here is just speaking their thoughts and have done so with great respect….at least that’s how I see it….;)
Hey sugarhi.
I believe you may have misunderstood Sharon. At least as I read it, she was referring to your comment that you don’t sweat the small stuff, and intending to mean that – for those of us struggling with the season – we don’t see those things as “small”, but indicative of larger issues.
I don’t think she was suggesting that anyone here was having issues. (although some comments can be read that way, too, especially the “being irked” comments above).
I was describing myself to alycat as I am in general. I wasn’t referring to spn at all. I was talking to her about the type of personality I have. I ‘m an optimist. I look for the bright side…and in life, I don’t sweat the small stuff…because life is too short and I don’t want to spend it upset…I was just warning her of that…because my general attitude is reflected when I write my posts and if something like that is annoying for her…I just wanted to let her know what to expect so she can avoid reading them…and that is all.
I can’t help the way I am….I can’t stop seeing the good in our show…and when i’m not happy with a certain aspect..i always will find something else to be happy with….I’m loving this season….I loved last season..i love all the seasons…I just can’t help it. 😀
Never fear – not afraid to post! As I said previously we can use more glass half full in this fandom and I agree – theres a lot more in life to sweat besides a television show (like death and taxes for instance…) no matter how passionate we may individually feel about it. That being said, I am a 100% Dean girl. Unapologetic, I love watching Jensen Ackles and his portrayal of Dean. That doesn’t mean I don’t love Sam or Jareds acting – there would be no show without the other. Season 10 has been frustratingly good. Sick to death of Cas/Hanna – love Misha but hate how they have managed to drag this storyline out. Sooooo miss the badass angels of the past – Uriel, Rafael, Zachariah, Balthazar and our own little fluffy haired Cas. This current crop hardly puts the fear of God into you…heh. While I’m thinking about it – even the demons were more evil back then. Crowley and Rowena – jury is still out on that one. I’m still waiting on his son, Gavin to return. Mixed feelings there since the writers wrote themselves into a butterfly effect when/if they do bring him back. Thought it a shame how they wasted (as in not used effectively, not as in ganked) Abaddon. Wonder if they will actually have Dean become the Big Bad this year? Nah…
Question of the day (or speculative observation that begs your comments) Watching a lot of earlier seasons, 3, 4 and 5 specifically and I noticed that it seems to me that prior episodes (not all, obviously) packed more into their alloted time frame. So much more than now. It was almost akin to dismounting a roller coaster at the end of the ride. Now there are times I find myself looking at the clock realizing there are 15 minutes left (minus commercials) knowing they are going to wrap up the story in 10 and its still dragging along. Mentally thinking of the threads that still need to be addressed for the particular stories/characters of this episode and coming to the conclusion that besides a quick, oftentimes unsatisfactory/predictable ending, it means a total of 3 minutes at the close of Sam and Dean. I missed viewing On the Head of a Pin in realtime – I can’t imagine how exciting that one would’ve been. Maybe I’m being too hard on Show but I don’t think so. I love the DemonDean/MOC arch but wish they had kept him demonic for awhile longer. Just as he started to hit his evil stride they “cure” him. This of course all remains to be seen, especially with the MOC still tormenting him. I’m sure Sam girls share the same frustrations with some of his storyline endings as well!!! I remain hopeful that this will be the one time that Show doesn’t end this one of Deans too soon. I’m still not over how fast they concluded the situation in Purgatory and the subsequent PTSD. Talk about shooting oneself in the foot!!! Nothing against Jared and his portrayals but Jensen does evil, crazy, off the hook anger… so well you would think Show would take more advantage of it. I’m personally praying that they leave Dean with the MOC for good, something that he has to learn how to control going forward. That would be a gutsy move on the part of the writers…instead of a quick fix season end. As far as Sam goes, I love him this year. I so missed the earlier seasons version. Really curious to see how this all works out and what part he will play, knowing that he is all ‘damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead’ when it comes to saving Dean. I like how they are working closer together, trying to be more open, moving towards being brothers again. Season 8 and 9 were often hard to watch but it wasn’t until Season 10 and seeing them work in tandem on their hunts, talking more.. that I realized just how much I missed them together. ‘There ain’t no me if there ain’t no you’ so applies to both of them, ya know? Sorry for the ramble – it’s late and these would actually have been several postings but I couldn’t get submit to cooperate.
Oh, one last thing about Season 10 – gah, enough with the trial spinoffs!!! Really like Cole, want to see more of him this year. Read people discussing him as possible spinoff material. Might be interesting but don’t see why they would since they cast a 39? year old actor to portray someone 21 years of age? What if it were a hit and went on for 5 years? Hey, Hunting really ages a guy – just like the Presidency!!! Ha. I haven’t seen anything strong enough to stand on its own as a new series. I like Jodi, Donna but nope. Cas? Love him but as he interacts with Sam and Dean, not on his angelic journeys… Dont get me started on Kate. Why Show? I dont know of anybody in fandom that were sitting around waiting with baited breath for that one. Charlie I like in small doses when shes not being a MarySue but I can’t see a spinoff with her either. Personally I don’t see a successful Supernatural without Sam and Dean. They are Supernatural, everything else is just a substitute. Enough. Apologize for the ramble – off to bed!!!
hey alycat…
it was nice to see you post. i’m a sam girl who is curious about dean…actually truth be told I do love them both..but I find my heart goes out to sam more. ironically though, as you may notice if you ever do read my old posts is that while I’ve had my moments of disliking dean (the first half of s8), I also noted in one of the many that I didn’t like that feeling. I hated hating dean. it bothered me…so I made it a point to rewatch s8,, the first half as painful as it was…and then watching it all in full and seeing dean’s complete 360 in his attitude towards sam…then it came to me…what I believed to be dean’s motivations. so now when I watch the first half of season 8, I still think dean is a dinkhead, but i’m not as angry with him, I understand him now and I understand where it’s all heading. when you watch s8 and 9 together, it’s a flowing story that makes perfects sense….I won’t get into it here, but there are posts that I’ve made, long ones at that, where I’ve gone into what I believe to be dean’s mentality, sam’s mentality , the basis of carver’s storyline which I believe to be the boys finally coming face to face with their own personal demons/issues…and thus learning to accept who they are…s10 is concluding and bringing into fruition that storyline which I postulated two seasons ago.:D
as i said the posts are there and you can read them or not and agree or not. 😉 but I warn you, if you ever do have a fancy to do just that, make sure you have caffeine with you..you might fall asleep.:D
I agree about missing bad ass angels. but that story should’ve ended when it did. s5. cas as a character should’ve just gone back to heaven and maybe popped in when things got super duper hairy. but the js need time off and show needed a familiar character with a fanbase. now I think they should use him more sporadically and use Crowley more. Crowley always has something up his sleeve and I have no doubt his story will be more interesting.
I can only guess about the style of the seasons. kripke admittedly, on many an occasion, noted that he always thought ea. season was to be the last. I think that’s why he wrote it as such. he always left it so it had an ending and closed storylines as quickly as possible. he never in a million years thought he’d get to s5 and now here we are in 10. carver is going in with a different style but I think a different mood. show’s proven itself. the fans are here to stay. I think he has the faith in show to realize we aint going anywhere so he can write stories that are slower in pace. there’s no rush, because there’s no quick end in sight.
also since his focus is more on the boys, it’s more of a personal story…there’s no big rush or need to cram everything in one ep…it’s a story for the next ep and the next. that’s my take anyway.
gotta run…work….enjoy the reading….thanks for posting. looking forward to more.
(Edited by Alice, I’ll address that post). And Elles post also in reply to Sugarhi15 – I’m not saying you did but your post reads almost bullet point by bullet point as if taken directly from the website Deans Discretions (I may be off on the name) aka Every Bad Action Taken Toward, Hurtful Thing Done To and General Meanness Perpetrated By Big Bro Dean when it comes to Sam. It is a website specifically created for Sam Girls to use in postings/conversations to help them defend and articulate their Sam stance. Really? I mean I get it, you guys are passionate about the character but we are all friends here, can’t we dial it back a bit??? There is one website I visit now and then where the people that post get so angry over their views that I actually worry about some of their blood pressure let alone mental state/health and another where the regular state of affairs is so incensed and vitriolic not to mention straight out crass and rude if you don’t walk the party line. And it is a gossip site for Chucks sake! And Heaven help you if you claim to be “in the know” when it comes to dropping some information unless you can proove what you’ve heard beyond a shadow of a doubt – giving up your firstborn wouldnt even be enough for these people – they will rip you to shreds and then after abusing the poor person who meant no harm and running them off, they lament and wail how there are no “in the knows” that post there anymore. Yikes.
ALL that being said – it’s just a show people. I’m not the posting police or the authority on how to post but can’t we all just get along? It may just be me but it seems like this board has recently taken a turn toward the dark side. Like I said I’ve lurked here a long time. Perhaps I’m just becoming too sensitive toward the discord and animosity that I have witnessed on the other sites but I would hate to see this board spiral into the same pattern.
(From Alice – Okay, I’ll allow this post. I don’t like how it’s veering away from the topic, but I can say, some discussions do get heated around here. Some threads do tend to go darker than others. I agree, I’d love to see us all get along, but we all have very passionate opinions and there are a lot of frustrated Sam fans here (I’m actually one to them!) But yes, the tone at some points is getting too disrespectful, so I’ll address that being the moderator.
Also, I really don’t mind you mentioning other sites here, but I can honestly say Elle2 has been writing for me for years and she’s very balanced. She slants Dean but she has a great grasp on both brothers. So, I think your assessment of her reply is a bit off. But like I said, I’ll allow the post this time).
It is a forum nobody is either right or wrong . It is open to debate regardless how passionate it gets and some do feel strongly about certain aspects , as a ‘quote’ Sam girl I was not happy with last season I have never hidden the fact or the fact the so called brother bond is just a ugly weirdness for me now .
Sorry post cut off…
State your views, by all means be passionate but be kind.
Peace in ’15.
AlyCat22 –
This is not the site you mentioned, thank goodness.
I think “Tone” is something that each reader – and commentor – interprets differently.
A lot of posters have been commenting here for a very long time, and – as a reader – I think we get used to their style, and their familiarity with english, and we get better at reading their intended tone.
One thing we do NOT need to do, imho, is to regress back to where people are subjected to ridicule, judgement, and/or abuse because of what they post. We’ve been there. Several times even in the few years that I’ve been around. And it has resulted in a LOT of hard feelings, more arguments, and posters leaving this site – every time.
So thanks for your thoughts, but I believe what we all really need to do is learn to skip over comments we dislike/disagree with, and let it go by [u]without[/u] comment, unless our comments can thoughtfully add to the discussion/debate at hand. It always takes two for an argument to happen.
That’s my resolution for 2015, anyway.
[quote]So thanks for your thoughts, but I believe what we all really need to do is learn to skip over comments we dislike/disagree with, and let it go by without comment, unless our comments can thoughtfully add to the discussion/debate at hand.[/quote]
I second this.
Sharon thanks for responding. I’m going to have to break this post into pieces because the site keeps kicking me off! Gah!
I totally understand. As a full fledged Dean Girl, trust me, I feel your pain. Who here hasn’t at times gotten frustrated with the ebb and flow of the storyline especially when it seems like your guy is being relegated to a slightly significant role. But that’s just it, the ebb and flow. One day its Sam, the next Dean. But it’s funny – my daughter and I were watching Season 4 last night and we were discussing something similar. We were both saying how much we loved that BOTH brothers had such strong storylines within the Myth arc. Sam/Ruby, Dean/Gas. Why they can’t write for both characters at the same time nowadays is beyond me! And why they can’t keep from having Sam being choked, tied to a chair or knocked out is annoying too! I wonder if there is an actual count out there? Is it lazy writing? I think so – I mean look at him! He’s as tall as a tree and strong as an ox – not to mention an experienced Hunter – c’mon! As Dean says – ‘That’s just nuts!!!!’. Also as someone posted earlier – what is with this cutting room floor business!!! Edit out a Clair or Hanna scene or two or six. Leave the brothers alone!!!! I would’ve liked to have seen Sam cooking! I love it when they do normal things or Hunter things, like clean guns or making shotgun shells or bullets!!! I know I don’t tune in faithfully every week to see less of them than we already are!!!
Huh, I think my entire post is going to go thru this time. Fingers crossed!
Edited by Alice – Keep the discussion related to the article. Thanks much!
AlyCat
Tone is, as I have said, subjective to the reader. I have “read” aggressive tones on this very article, coming from “positive” posters. The poster you questioned has a recognizable style, and this post conforms to her style. I don’t think aggression was intended.
You may not feel your own post was harsh. But there are those who will find it so. Guaranteed. I am simply saying it is unnecessary.
When it IS necessary, it is best for all of us to leave it up to the moderators. Less arguments, few hurt feelings, and no one feels judged by other posters.
No harm, no foul. I am not trying to start an argument with you.
Thank you.
*articulately * I hate auto correct!
*articulately * I hate auto correct!
having problems with logging on the site so I had to do it as a guest. I just wanted to thank you alycat….thank you so very much. 🙂
Edited by Alice – Hi AlyCat22. I know things are getting heated, and I’m going through a bunch of posts right now. But arguments with other posters aren’t allowed. I know you’re responding to a particular post, so I’ll take care of that one too. We do have a report comment feature if a comment offends or bothers you. Or send me a message via contact us. Either way, if you object to a post, I’d rather address it myself rather than letting strong words be thrown back and forth. Don’t worry, you aren’t in any trouble. We just have a rule where the discussion should stay related to the article, not other posters. I’ve included the link to the rules below.v Thank you.
https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/64-rules/14338-we-are-a-happy-site-but-there-are-rules
Alice. No problem. Point taken. Hoisted on my own petard!!! Your name wouldn’t be “The Trickster by any chance? I wasn’t upset. I made the mistake of making an observation and posting same not expecting a response, let alone a salvo from one poster! I didn’t think it important enough to involve you. (Edited by Alice).
(From Alice – I’m not issuing any warnings or bans, just reminding people from now on, please stick to the actual subject of the article and leave other opinions of other posters out of it. Thanks much!)
Alice – just for the record in regards to the comment you made on the post I made that you let stand? It wasn’t Elle that I was referring to, it was Eilf. Elle2 was the one I was standing up for. If you reread my posts you will see that I was complementing her on a great article. I even asked if she or Sugarhi15 wrote any fan fiction they are both so good! Sugarhi15 post in regards to how she see what Carver is trying to accomplish over Seasons 8, 9 and 10 was especially insightful and well tthought out! I have since recommended it as a must read to several people on different sites. :).
(From Alice – Oops, my bad! Eilf was misspelled and I incorrectly assumed you meant Elle2. I know that Eilf did comment back, so I’ll allow her comment to stand in defense. Thanks for setting the record straight).
Hi Alycat22, I didn’t realize you were referring to me. Alice I hope it is ok to post my reply here to the part of Alycat’s post you left stand since I didn’t have the opportunity before and I really can’t find anywhere else more suitable to reply (though I wonder if you would consider an ‘Off Topic’ section on your discussion page). Also the ‘reply’ feature seems to not be working at present.
A few points:
Firstly I have never heard of the site you mention Alycat, and if I had I would most likely avoid it. Or least I would go on there, decide which of the points I agreed with and which ones I don’t, and leave it go, I probably wouldn’t go back.
Secondly, I am perfectly capable of watching a show and coming to my own conclusions. I have been watching the show for several years now and I certainly don’t need anyone to tell me what to think. As an aside if you are suggesting that I am someone who posts under another name on the site you mention, well I can tell you that I don’t, I use the one name everywhere and I stand behind my opinions. If I decide later that my opinion was over the top or incorrect I will edit my post or agree with another person’s argument (if I agree with them), or remove it entirely which I have done on more than one occasion. I post when I feel strongly about something.
Thirdly I avoid sites that I know will make me angry, and EDG sites I keep away from completely. As you say yourself that you are 100% Deangirl (I would consider myself about 70/30 at the moment and there was a point in the story where I didn’t feel the need to defend one brother at all) maybe you should keep away from sites that say in their name that they are places where Samgirls are blowing off steam and that other opinions are not welcome?
Finally I stand behind what I posted in the comment you took exception to as the points were mostly major points in the relevant episodes (or I believe would have been dealt with differently if the brothers’ roles were reversed) and which have since been roundly ignored in the writing which makes no sense. I was putting forward a point of view that was at variance with Elle2 (and was not directly addressed to her) and she chose to ignore it. This is a perfectly reasonable reaction and I have no argument with it.
so as to keep the subject to the article at hand, I will once again reiterate how I love this season and every season prior to it. It’s an amazing journey of courage, heroism, flaws, dysfunction, strength, fear, humor, family and love. It’s a story I hope goes on for years to come.
that being said, the arguing needs to stop now. please please let it go.
I feel responsible for all of it because it was my post that was being defended in the first place. Thank you alycat so much for speaking out for me. I appreciate all your effort and I apologize for the backlash you received in kind for doing something nice for me.
I understand and agree that everyone has their own opinion. Of course, conversations will always and inevitable veer off topic and become passionate. It’s what we do after all:) But I will say this much…the poster who alycat was defending me from has been on this site for a very very long time. Whether from America, Spain, Canada or Katmandu, disrespect is a universal language. It’s one thing not to agree and by Chuck there are so many other tactful ways to say you don’t agree….but to flat out tell someone “i don’t really care what you think” is about as rude and disrespectful as you can get and it doesn’t matter what language you speak or where you come from to recognize that. it was uncalled for…a simple I don’t agree would’ve sufficed and avoided this entire back and forth.
as john Winchester said: i’m ending it…it ends right now. no more fighting. no more bickering. it’s time to get back to the discussion at hand and do so with respect for everyone here.;)
ps. alycat….please come to cbox. it’s a wonderful little chatroom where a few of us gals come and chat about….oh…everything. it would be wonderful if you came over and we can discuss whatever comes to mind. thank you again for your kind words…i’m sorry for all the trouble it caused you. :(:)
(Edited by Alice) – No one is banned or in trouble or anything. Chalk this one up to an admin that just had too much going on last night and wasn’t able to finish editing posts. I’m removing this post and editing the one before it, just because they’re both against our rules. I just hope we all feel better now that the words are all off our chests, and we can move onto discussion about season ten. Thank you.
@ sugarhi15[quote]Whether from America, Spain, Canada or Katmandu, disrespect is a universal language.[/quote]Mangalore ,India.[quote].but to flat out tell someone “i don’t really care what you think” is about as rude and disrespectful as you can get and it doesn’t matter what language you speak or where you come from to recognize that. it was uncalled for…a simple I don’t agree would’ve sufficed and avoided this entire back and forth.
[/quote]It was not meant as a disrespect.That is simply how I think.The things that the show tells me are true not what i tell myself or anyone tells me.As for why I replied what I replied..in my comment which you quoted I specifically mentioned the show..Your post did not address that.It did not concern to what I stated.I repeat, the characters on the show and the show itself only acknowledges Dean.Lisa,Charlie from the top of my head.It also repeatedly only mentions Sam’s mistakes (tracie,castiel) While conveniently forgetting Dean’s part in the same.
As far as disrespecting goes you had no qualms thanking someone ( i do not want to mention the name as I do not want to drag their name) for a similar reply in one of the earlier articles …so please take your own advice.The site even I think deleted a part of the comment then..so the site is fair..no complaints with the site.
Yes …now we may stop the fighting and bickering .:)
[quote] been on this site for a very very long time. [/quote]Hey..I am not ancient :D:p
Oh for Chucks sake. Let it go people. I am going to respond her this one last time and yes I read the rules which I think other posters are now violating but I will probably get the reprimand since I’m new. My last 2 posts were directed to Alice. To explain – a salvo, as in many RESPONSES from the same poster, NOT as in an “attack”… I was just using a figure of speech. Secondly, I wasn’t calling ANYONE a *itch, I was using a line from the show to let Alice know in a HUMORESS WAY that I thought I could handle something so simple without involving a “parent” – lighten up people!!! And now I guess I have to qualify my last sentence by saying no, I’m not in anyway referring to the fact someone did! As far as this whole thing going down the way it has – I’m not angry, I never was angry, you guys are reading way too much into it. As I have pointed out, my post was a call to be a little bit more respectful – not a call to arms. Refer to Sugarhi15’s most recent post – she understands where I was coming from, plain and simple. And Sugarhi15 thanks for the support and the offer to join you guys in CBox! I may just take you up on that if extricating myself from this mess with this post doesn’t get me kicked off the site. Thanks “Dad”. See? She used a reference from the show to make a point in a comedic way… Alice I hope this doesn’t upset you. My intent was never to cause problems here. I will not address any further posts in regards to this matter, I just wanted to set the record straight over my 2 comment/responses to you. In retrospect I probably should have figured out how to privately send them directly to you but as I meant no ill will I didn’t think it would start up another round of off topic discussion. I didn’t know how carefully I have to put things into words so as not to offend.
To explain my issues with your comment to alice, alycat, (aside from the show quote, which, if meant to be humour was in poor taste, imho), here’s MY final post on the issue:
From the Meriam Webster Dictionary:
Definition of SALVO
1
a : a simultaneous discharge of two or more guns in military action or as a salute
b : the release all at one time of a rack of bombs or rockets (as from an airplane)
c : a series of shots by an artillery battery with each gun firing one round in turn after a prescribed interval
d : the bombs or projectiles released in a salvo
2
: something suggestive of a salvo: as
a : a sudden burst
b : a spirited attack
And again, it is so easy to offend.
My apologies to you both, alycat, and to sugarhi. I meant no disrespect to either of you. I was attempting to suggest that posts in the form of “WOW, Aggressive much?” – which has since been edited, so I’m paraphrasing – are not a good way to post, newbie or otherwise, and that posts inspiring that reaction are best left to the attention of the moderator. (And no, I don’t believe that being edited has ANYTHING to do with how often you post here).
Apologies to Elle2…. This is not in any way what I wanted to see happen on your article.
Thanks to Alice for your work in moderating. I’ll stop now and leave it to you… which was my intent in the first place.
Here’s to a much more peaceful 2015. Cheers all.
AnonymousN, how would you feel (or any Sam fan here) if someone used the word *retch* in conjunction with Sam, especially after it was placed after a reference to Dean’s “heart”? This site would literally melt down with angry defensive responses. No one here is that disrespectful to Sam, ever. You don’t have to like Dean or any other character. You can be as angry and disappointed as you want with the show and how the characters are written. I just think ALL of us here can choose our words a little more carefully. Telling someone that you don’t care what they think is not very nice, if you don’t care then why bother to respond? If we are going to co exist here we need to at least try and be polite to each other. Every single one of us! I would like to see a little peace restored to the site.
Hi, all, I see the discussion has been lively — not surprising, for when you get passionate people together, they tend to talk passionately. After all, isn’t that why we all come to sites like this: To talk about that which we are passionate about, share with others who are passionate about it, and — especially at this time of the year — pass some time between episodes? 🙂
First off, thanks to all who commented on this article. It is nice when you write something to see comments on it; it’s a bit of validation of the effort. So thanks to all. I appreciate everyone who has written. Some voiced opinions in contrast to mine. Thank you. I like to read other points of view, sometimes it causes me to say, wow, I never saw that but now that you mention it… Sometimes I find so little in common with the other point of view that I take some time to respond — that’s not always why I take time to respond, mind you; sometimes my cat hogs the mouse. 😉 Seriously, sometimes I’m too busy meeting a deadline for work that it takes some time, but I always try to respond. It’s just polite. Truth is, when someone agrees with you, it’s easy to respond to that because you are of a like mind, (which doesn’t make their comment any less awesome than anyone else’s). When someone voices something that you hadn’t seen, or still don’t see after they’ve articulated their point of view, it takes me some time to digest it and then look for a respectful way of thanking them for their response and perhaps even sharing a common ground moment. It’s never meant as offense; it just means I’m processing, thinking, and wanting to find a good way (hopefully) of responding to them, acknowledging their point of view. I learned long ago that for me, personally, I don’t want to change anyone else’s viewpoint; I simply want to express my own, so it’s unlikely I’ll ever debate anyone. I may read something that I just don’t agree with, but that doesn’t make it any less valid to the other person…and yes, there may be a huge contingent of people who agree. That’s all good by me.
I appreciate the people who were unclear of my intentions and thus commented in similar fashion. I hope I cleared up my intentions. If not, well, ask again. If you don’t want to ask on the open forum, send a note to Alice on the Contact Us spot. She’ll get it to me and then I can respond in like fashion. That way we stay private if need be. Or, we can exchange emails if we both feel good about it and chat that way.
Forums like this can be a lot of fun, as we get to share our own thoughts with people who have a similar passion (Supernatural) and then we can read a bunch of others’ thoughts as well. It’s tricky though because these conversations where one person is chatting with another are open for all to see, and anyone can respond and join in. It’s part of the fun, but it’s also part of why things can get a wee bit sticky now and again. Sometimes a comment meant for one person who is of similar mind, and likely not to interpret anything ‘off’ about it, can easily be misinterpreted by someone else who is ‘overhearing’, as it were. The best thing I’ve learned over the years, not just in the fandom but also in my personal and professional life, is to step back, breathe, and perhaps wait before responding — unless it’s a direct assault. If you’re directly assaulted, hit the Report button and let Alice or Nightsky handle it. They swoop in pretty quick. I actually triple posted a response on this very article (something that caused me to blush immensely (no, really!) and Nightsky caught it and fixed it pretty quick. Whew! Disaster averted! :p
What I want everyone who reads this to walk away from is this: thank you for the discussion. It’s been fun. Also, be kind to each other: we all love the same show — even at times when it irritates us. Also, check out some of the other great articles on the site since this one was posted. Bardicvoice just posted a grand article which was fascinating (to me) to read! It really is the Winchesters in an interstellar sort of way! And, rejoice! 2015 is here, which — among many other things — means we’re less than three weeks out from the next new episode! We can make it, all. We can!
I’m with elle2 all the way on this. We haven’t had a real heated discussion in a while and for the most part I welcome the spirit of debate. This is honestly one thread with one volatile subject. It isn’t reflective of all we have on this site.
Just a reminder than no one is in trouble, no one is getting reprimanded or warned, any edits I made are just to make sure the spirit of the rules is followed. Yes, some comments got buy that were heated and might be stretching our rules a bit but I allowed them if anything to give a poster a chance to get in their say about something. If you think your post has been wrongly unpublished or edited, please send me a message through “Contact Us” and I’ll review it again. I have a record of the original comments posted so they are not lost.
Thanks everyone and Happy New Year!
amen to that elle2…and thanks. 😉
Yes, thanks so much Elle2. I very much appreciate you and your voice here. 🙂
[quote]AnonymousN, how would you feel (or any Sam fan here) if someone used the word *retch* in conjunction with Sam, especially after it was placed after a reference to Dean’s “heart”? This site would literally melt down with angry defensive responses. No one here is that disrespectful to Sam, ever. You don’t have to like Dean or any other character. You can be as angry and disappointed as you want with the show and how the characters are written. I just think ALL of us here can choose our words a little more carefully. Telling someone that you don’t care what they think is not very nice, if you don’t care then why bother to respond? If we are going to co exist here we need to at least try and be polite to each other. Every single one of us! I would like to see a little peace restored to the site.[/quote]Leah the *retch * was not for Dean..It was for the differences in portrayal of Dean and Sam.When Dean does the mistake the focus Dean gets from other characters is regarding his intentions i.e Castiel mentions his big heart..but Same Castiel tells Sam that he is a screw up but without focusing on his intent.Can I guess Sam’s intent? Yes,I can..but it is not stated explicitely by the show through the characters and preferably repeatedly as they somehow or the other bring up sam’s past mistakes.It is this chioce made by the show while portraying Dean’s as well as Sam that makes me retch.There are more instances but i will comment about it when the recommences and if i do not obsereve any change in portrayal of Sam’s action i’e not highlighting Sam’s intentions..praise for Sam’s forgivenes etc.i.e the show reiterating Sam’s positives like they do Dean’s.
And as far as caring goes.sugarhi took a sentence from my comment which stated that i had problem with the show’s portrayal and replied it with how she sees sam..which I will say is irrelevant to the point I made.Earlier when i was commenting (s06-07) I would feel sad about how other commentors would blatantly lie about saam’s actions.But now I just do not care as it is shows portrayal which is paramount to me.My complaints were/are with the show and if someone replies my complaints with the show with how They see it,it simple does not matter to the comment I made.
Hi anonymousN. Yes, I misunderstood your meaning. I apologize. There has been a lot of that going around. I just hope we all can be courteous to each other. It makes things so much better here on the site. 🙂