Description of Supernatural 10.09 from TVLine
TVLine has published a roundup of midseason finales including 10.09.
Things We Left Behind
Airdate: Tuesday, Dec. 9 (The CW, 9/8c) Why You Need to Watch: Dean finally makes a decision about the troublesome Mark of Cain plaguing him. Elsewhere, the daughter of Castiel’s vessel, Jimmy, convinces the angel to break her out of a group home — and then she ditches Cas (how rude!), leaving the Winchesters to search for her. As for Crowley, the King of Hell will face his biggest challenge yet.
I wonder what decision Dean makes. Cas has to deal with Claire and personally, I don’t find ditching the angel who possessed Claire and then blackmailed her father into being his vessel again using to be “rude”. I think it’s intelligent, but that’s just me. I wonder what Crowley’s challenge is. It certainly sounds like a lot is going to happen. I’m excited.
The entire list of finales is at TVLine
“Dean finally makes a decision about the troublesome Mark of Cain plaguing him.” In regard to the MOC Jensen tweeted “Hey @Omundson any idea how to get this thing off my arm? No? Didn’t think so. #TattooRegrets #burcon #SPNFamily” – 😀 Interesting to see what choices he has to even make a decision. If Cain cannot come back then I hope DEATH is part of the solution. He is the only one with the mojo to pull it off plus the character is great!
This is from Timothy Omundson’s Twitter:
[quote] “@philips_mommy: Did I read that right? Cain is coming back? #Supernatural”
You did and He is. S10#14 #Mayhem [/quote]
I REALLY hope that Dean doesnt run off and ditch Sam. I’ve had just about enough of that from BOTH brothers.
Cain is back in episode 14 !? I really hope that Sam and Dean are together to see Cain. I want to see how Cain reacts to meeting Sam. Cain saw himself in Dean, I wonder if Sam will remind him of his brother Abel.
Is Abel going to make an appearance? I’d love to see Abel’s take on what went down all those millennia ago and I’d love to see Sam’s reaction to meeting him.
I thought someone commented either before the season began or shortly afterwards that Able does make an appearance. Can’t remember where I heard it though.
That’s awesome! I wonder HOW he makes an appearance? I suppose Cas could go talk to him, but since he’s been dead for millennia I am not sure how he’d talk to Sam and Dean or even Cain for that matter. But wouldn’t a confrontation between Cain and Abel be awesome? I always wondered if perhaps Cain had gotten the whole ‘I need to save my brother by killing him’ wrong and I’d love to get Abel’s side of things.
I thought they said they might use Abel if Omundson was unavailable to play Cain. Who knows now.
This is from an old interview (published on Aug 1, 2014):
[quote] They’ve discussed bringing Abel on the show. As much as Carver insists that Supernatural would love to have Cain back this season, actor Timothy Omundson is a little busy on an upcoming ABC show called Galavant (which will premiere mid-season and is hilarious, by the way). The writers have, however, discussed the possibility of Abel. “That’s a great idea, and [it] has been bandied about in the writers room,” Carver said, adding, “You know, it’s funny. I teased some characters…that have been spoken of but not seen [on the show], and from what I’ve seen—I don’t check it out too much—[the guesses] have been incorrect.” [/quote]
http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/08/01/spoiler-room-supernatural-teen-wolf/
That wasn’t the comment I remember reading but that pretty much answers the question….Who knows, maybe, maybe not.
I think Cain was able to win Dean over after he told Dean his version of the events. [i] “Abel wasn’t talking to God. He was talking to Lucifer. Lucifer was gonna make my brother into his pet. I couldn’t bear to watch him be corrupted, so I offered a deal — Abel’s soul in heaven for my soul in hell. Lucifer accepted… As long as I was the one who sent Abel to heaven. So, I killed him. Became a soldier of Hell — a knight. [/i]
I hope Dean will come to the realization that Cain had been wrong to kill Abel no matter what Cain’s reasoning was.
[i] Cain: I felt connected to you right from the beginning. Kindred spirits, if you will. You and I are very much alike.
Dean: Right. Yeah, except I didn’t kill my brother.
Cain: You saved yours. Why?
Dean: Because you never give up on family — ever.
Cain: Where’s your brother now, then? [/i]
Maybe meeting Sam will make Cain truly understand what he had done to his own brother. It’s very possible that Sam had been worse off than Abel had been but that still doesn’t mean that Sam should have been killed. I think Cain will feel conflicted about Sam. Cain seems to have loved his little brother but he hadn’t saved him so Cain didn’t understand why Dean hadn’t killed Sam. If Cain is a good person, he might try to start making things right with Abel by helping Sam.
Hi SanSummer, I was thinking along these lines as well. I’d love to see Sam and Cain have a scene or two; I think they could learn a lot from each other. I was also kind of hoping that Abel was going to appear because I often wondered if Cain got it wrong… maybe things weren’t as they seemed. Who’s to say that Lucifer didn’t just trick Cain by lying to him and Cain fell for it? I was not a fan of the “revisionist” version of the Cain and Abel story that Supernatural used. It took a story in which Cain was basically wrong; petty and jealous of his brothers talents and turned it into a story where Cain was the selfless hero willing to sacrifice all for his weak and clueless dupe of a brother. The parallels to Sam and Dean that this scenario brings up irks me as it makes Dean the selfless hero and Sam the clueless dupe. I’d like to find out Abel’s side of things here and I’d LOVE it if things weren’t so cut and dried the way Cain thinks it is. I’d like to Cain to learn that killing his brother was his biggest mistake; and I’d like Dean to learn that the methods he used to force his brother to live were also a mistake. Each of them should have found a different way out of their dilemma.
Abel died a violent death so I think it’s really unfortunate that some fans want to whitewash Cain’s actions just because of the connection between Cain and Dean. Some even think that the father of murder was a moral man!
I think Dean became more accepting of Cain because Cain’s line of thinking ([i]“Lucifer was gonna make my brother into his pet. I couldn’t bear to watch him be corrupted —”[/i]) seemed to have been similar to Dean’s when Dean had feared that Sam was turning into a monster.
[b] 4.21 When the Levee Breaks. [/b]
[i] Bobby: I’m gonna ask one more time. Are we absolutely sure we’re doing the right thing?
Dean: Bobby, you saw what was happening to him down there. The demon blood is killing him.
Bobby: No, it isn’t. We are.
Dean: What?
Bobby: I’m sorry. I can’t bite my tongue any longer. We’re killing him. Keeping him locked up down there. This cold-turkey thing isn’t working. If—if he doesn’t get what he needs, soon, Sam’s not gonna last much longer.
Dean: No. I’m not giving him demon blood. I won’t do it.
Bobby: And if he dies?
Dean: Then at least he dies human! [/i]
Dean even ended up identifying with Cain to some degree even though he had rejected Cain at first.
[b] 9.11 First Born [/b]
[i] Cain: The mark can be transferred to someone who’s worthy.
Dean: You mean a killer like you?
Cain: Yes. [/i]
I wonder whether Cain got the mark before or after he killed Abel. Was the murder weapon just a jawbone but the First Blade was created when Abel died?
I hope Cain will have a change of heart because of Sam.
the ex-wife must be dead or hospitalized. hummmm
I remember her being possessed by a demon but I don’t remember what happened after that. Anybody?
The demon was expelled. Cas promised Jimmy Novak that his family, both Amelia and Claire would be protected by the angels and they were never mentioned again. So Claire’s mother was alive the last time we saw her, but who knows now.
Percysowner, what is your feeling on whether Jimmy and his soul is still in the house, so to speak? If Cas decided to, could he do the same thing Hannah did at some point?
I’m hoping that is something that gets a final answer this season. I believe that Jimmy is still in there because Cas is still an angel and angels can’t occupy a dead vessel. They had to resurrect Adam to get consent for Michael, just reviving his body didn’t count. But if Jimmy has been in there all this time that’s pretty horrible and it makes Cas horrible on a personal level. It means that when he was with April, Jimmy was being raped. I fully believe Jimmy was in there in season five’s My Bloody Valentine because Cas said his vessel and specifically stated Jimmy Novak was the one who desired meat. But Cas has been killed and brought back so many times in so many ways, that I honestly don’t know. Writers have said he is dead in answer to questions about his status and I’m not sure that the show is willing to have Cas be as dark as he would have to be if he’s been keeping Jimmy captive all these years.
Thanks. It just seems like they might be headed down that road this season what with Hannah’s realization of what inhabiting that vessel means and the subsequent leaving of her vessel. We will see I guess.
That was my interpretation of the scene with Cas in the car looking up Jimmy. He seemed to be looking at a man whose life was taken away from him. I am sure Cas remembers how much Jimmy wanted to return to his family and only agreed to re possession to save his daughter. With heaven in disarray it looks like Amelia and Claire fell through the cracks.
I’m not sure I’d call it falling through the cracks. Cas promised they would be protected by the angels if Jimmy said yes the second time. Then when Cas changed sides I can’t imagine that Zachariah or Michael considered any promises Cas made to be binding. When Lucifer and Michael were caged and Zachariah was dead, that may be when Amelia and Claire fell through the cracks. Cas seemed to totally forget about them. The minute Cas turned they became irrelevant to the angels, IMHO.
That’s a good point I hadn’t thought about it that way. They would have been Castiels superiors in charge of manipulating the soldiers and everyone in between.
I have been mulling over the rape thing and I am not really sure the angels see it that way, being angels and all. They often don’t see things the way a human might. When they get permission to inhabit a vessel they may just see it as permission to use the vessel as they see fit and who knows, maybe the person giving permission feels that way too. IDK. I don’t think Cas saw it as rape of his vessel. Maybe he should have. If someone agrees to having their vessel taken over for eternity by an angel does it have unwritten stipulations? Curious to see what others think on this matter.
I’m sure the angels and Cas don’t consider it rape. The one point Hannah made was that when angels take a vessel they believe they are doing it for the cause and the cause is more important than the vessel. I think there is an unwritten stipulation about the use of a body in angel/vessel consent. Angels are seen as and seem to mostly be asexual with Gabriel and Balthazar being the big exceptions. Also, Jimmy was raised in a faith that labels adultery as a sin. He was still married to Amelia as far as we know. He gave his body to Cas to do God’s will, not to have Cas learn about carnal pleasures. Jimmy had more of an idea of what he was getting into when he said yes to save Claire, but from what I saw, Cas was not sexually active or even interested in sex. So Jimmy can not have anticipated that would change. Frankly getting Jimmy consent the second time was one of the most morally bankrupt things I have seen on the show. Castiel had lived in Jimmy’s body and had to have some idea of how much he loved his child. He then threatens to torture Claire for eternity instead of torturing Jimmy, and Jimmy made it clear that he never wanted to be a vessel again. Most people would do anything to save their child pain. Jimmy’s consent was totally coerced. You could say that he agreed to whatever Castiel did with his body, but if someone holds a gun to your child’s head and tells you that unless you agree to sex, she will be raped, well you can consent all you want, but you are still being raped. Just MHO.
[quote]METATRON: And now something wonderful is going to happen, for me and for you. I want you to live this new life to the fullest. [b]Find a wife. Make babies. And when you die and your soul comes to Heaven[/b], find me. Tell me your story.
(A bright light surrounds the room as METATRON places his hand on CASTIEL’S head in the scene ends.)[/quote]
Dun dun duun, Metatron turned Castiel to human. He was only Castiel on that moment and he seems to have a soul that IS Castiel not Jimmy. Anyway, like some other things this R-thing has been blown out of proportion but still I for one am uncomfotable to talk about it. Don’t even want to write the word.
Anyway, hope the quote shares some light to the issue. That is the closest we know about now. Who knows how it is atm. 🙂
If you want to check the quote, 8.23 Sacrifice
– Lilah
Sorry Lilah, but I don’t agree with this. Human or not, soul or not, Cas still looked ilke JIMMY so I can only assume that he was still in Jimmy at the time. The whole “you’re human now, go make babies” scenario is fraught with so many dramatic construction problems and I think that the writers just glossed it all over rather than figure out some way to explain it. Angels are energy; big balls of light, as Cas said in season 4, the size of the Chrysler Building in their true form; they shatter glass and burst ear drums when they speak. They can’t go down to earth without having a vessel or being born into a human body (still a vessel but from infancy, like Anna). Being told that he was human now and had a soul does not negate what Cas is…an angel with a need for a vessel every time he’s on earth. When he took on grace again (first Theo’s and then Adina’s) his appearance did not change which means he still had to be in Jimmy. Frankly, it’s Cas’s presence rather than Jimmy’s that is far more dubious and hard to follow. If he’s still got a vessel and is taking on the grace of other angels, how is he still Cas?
Well,
Metatron turned him human and human has to have a soul to live. The essence for him being an angel was also taken away. He only got sick when taking the stolen grace. I am just taking what the quote says. And if Jimmy wasn’t gone before on that moment he should have been lost.
– L
Then why did it still look ilke Jimmy? If Cas was indeed human and no longer in need of a vessel then we should have seen the “real” Cas, who would have been, by necessity, a completely different actor. Angels (as far as we know) can’t inhabit a dead body, so Jimmy must still be around in some capacity or Cas would have had to have gotten himself a new vessel or appeared in his original bright light state. If he was really human as Metatron said then he would have had to have been reborn as a human infant like Anna was. Cas is an angel, angels don’t become human and humans don’t become angels. It’s like waiting for your dog to become a cat.. its not going to happen. When Metatron stole his grace Cas was an angel without grace inside a human vessel. I can’t even conceive of it any other way to view it that makes any sense whatsoever no matter what Metatron said… he’s a liar and a cheat on a good day so I am not inclined to believe anything he says. And if Cas is suddenly human than why does the consumption of grace (any grace apparently) turn him instantly back into an angel who still needs a vessel and that vessel still looks like Jimmy? Pretty convenient that Cas, weather human or angel, with a soul or without a soul, his own grace, stolen grace, or no grace all look like the human vessel Jimmy that he took years earlier.
We may find out that Cas is all alone in the empty shell of a vessel that once was Jimmy in defiance of everything we’ve learned about angels so far and one more piece of canon will be thrown on the trash heap with all the other pieces, slowly annihilating the Supernatural world that Kripke built up so carefully. Currenly the writers do whatever suits them regardless of what came before. But until they say unequivocally that Jimmy is dead (“You’ll never age and you’ll never die” – Castiel from The Rapture) I will continue to believe that Cas is riding around in Jimmy Novak’s hijacked body and that Jimmy is still in there somewhere desperate to get out.
I agree Percy’s. As I said on another thread, even though the show has not said so in so many words, I believe that an angel must inhabit a LIVE vessel, as the angel uses the power of the human soul to maintain him or her self and keep the vessel healthy. The power that an angel possesses is derived from the human soul. Season 6 clearly implied that Cas was using soul power to manipulate his powers and that having so many souls, even monster souls was what was making him so invincible. And when Cas was shot and was so depleted that he couldn’t heal himself, he had to harness the power of Bobby’s soul to do it; hence the famous “touch it?” “Touch it” scene. For me having a live vessel is one of the main differences between being an angel and being a demon; that and the need for consent. Cas did tell Jimmy (when he was in Claire) that if he gave his consent to being a vessel he would never age and never die. I hope that whatever they are planning with Cas and his story about Jimmy does not refute that information as it makes sense the way that it is. I like the fact that angels need human soul power to operate, it makes them more codependent and therefore more interesting. Perhaps Cas has never questioned his possession of a vessel because it’s always been done this way since the dawn of time. Perhaps Hannah is the first to ever question their methods in this way. Cas is a decent person and maybe he’s just now noticing the conflict that arises from having a human vessel indefinitely. Maybe he’s just now realizing that the consent Jimmy gave him was based on poor knowledge or the feeling the the was being blackmailed (Cas was in his daughter Claire at the time Jimmy gave his consent a second time). Many angels have possessed humans through dubious consent, Sam being the most obvious. I can’t imagine an angel like Uriel, Zachariah or even Raphael caring much about how they got their consent to take a person as a vessel. Even Michael used Mary against John to get him to say yes in the past.
One thing I’d like to come out of all this dissecting of the angel/vessel relationship and the idea that being a vessel is at best incredibly difficult and at worst completely and totally destructive to the human in question is a better understanding of exactly what Sam went through both when possessed by Lucifer and the forced possession by Gadreel. It’s high time that Sam’s voice on these accounts was heard.
I agree Percy’s. As I said on another thread, even though the show has not said so in so many words, I believe that an angel must inhabit a LIVE vessel, as the angel uses the power of the human soul to maintain him or her self and keep the vessel healthy. The power that an angel possesses is derived from the human soul. Season 6 clearly implied that Cas was using soul power to manipulate his powers and that having so many souls, even monster souls was what was making him so invincible. And when Cas was shot and was so depleted that he couldn’t heal himself, he had to harness the power of Bobby’s soul to do it; hence the famous “touch it?” “Touch it” scene. For me having a live vessel is one of the main differences between being an angel and being a demon; that and the need for consent. Cas did tell Jimmy (when he was in Claire) that if he gave his consent to being a vessel he would never age and never die. I hope that whatever they are planning with Cas and his story about Jimmy does not refute that information as it makes sense the way that it is. I like the fact that angels need human soul power to operate, it makes them more codependent and therefore more interesting. Perhaps Cas has never questioned his possession of a vessel because it’s always been done this way since the dawn of time. Perhaps Hannah is the first to ever question their methods in this way. Cas is a decent person and maybe he’s just now noticing the conflict that arises from having a human vessel indefinitely. Maybe he’s just now realizing that the consent Jimmy gave him was based on poor knowledge or the feeling the the was being blackmailed (Cas was in his daughter Claire at the time Jimmy gave his consent a second time). Many angels have possessed humans through dubious consent, Sam being the most obvious. I can’t imagine an angel like Uriel, Zachariah or even Raphael caring much about how they got their consent to take a person as a vessel. Even Michael used Mary against John to get him to say yes in the past.
One thing I’d like to come out of all this dissecting of the angel/vessel relationship and the idea that being a vessel is at best incredibly difficult and at worst completely and totally destructive to the human in question is a better understanding of exactly what Sam went through both when possessed by Lucifer and the forced possession by Gadreel. It’s high time that Sam’s voice on these accounts was heard.
E – I’d have to disagree on angels using the power of the human soul to keep the vessel healthy. That has never been established; yes, an injured Castiel did that in S6 Frontierland to get Sam and Dean back from the 19th century, but if I recall it was a very dangerous thing to do and don’t recall other instances of this happening. An angel’s grace is different from a human soul; isn’t their grace basically their mojo?
Dean is right, though… angels are dicks.
True… but having a healthy functioning vessel (at least physically) is in their best interest. They spend considerable time making sure that the vessel is healthy and functions well. That’s why Cas told Jimmy that the would never age or die, because Cas would maintain him. Angel vessels don’t need to eat, shower, brush their teeth or use the bathroom because all their needs are cared for by the angel. Maybe its the grace and maybe it’s the soul or a combination of the two. Gadreel spent considerable time and effort getting Sam healthy, even to the point that it was difficult for himself. Why not just let Sam die and then take over his fortified vessel if he could have? Why did Lucifer keep Sam alive when he could have killed him and taken his vessel whenever he felt like it? I think it’s because of the souls; a vessel without it’s soul is worth so much less. I think that’s why demons have so much less power than angels do. They either take the vessel by force, in which case the soul fights against the demon, or they take a dead vessel in which case there is no soul. Either way it makes them weaker and prone to having to change vessels quite often. Angels gain permission (for whatever that’s worth) to make the soul’s power available to them. Yes. I am speculating and extrapolating and I am just waiting for some bit of canon to come along and shoot this all out of the water. But this is my current working theory, and I like it, there’s a symmetry and logic here. 😀
Your theory makes some sense. Honestly it is very confusing. So Metatron made Cas “human” with soul and all. First of all isn’t Metatron basically an angel? Since when can they turn fellow angels human and manufacture them a soul? Huh? Did the tablet have something to do with that? So when Cas got some grace from another angel did that dehumanize him? I still feel Jimmy resides in there somewhere and always will but someone from the show said he was gone. Did Jimmy and Cas each share the same body and each have souls for a time? Cas now has some mojo due to some grace, does that make him angel again? What happened to his soul? Oh well, it hurts my head to try and figure it all out let alone consent issues.
I agree with you Leah… it’s VERY confusing. Last I heard, angels can’t turn other angels into anything let alone a human and the only way an angel can become a human is to willingly give up their grace, fall to earth and be reborn as a human infant like Anna did. Now, Cas did give up his grace (unwillingly) and he fell to earth, but he was not reborn a human and he still looked like Jimmy. He looked like Jimmy when he was an angel, when he was graceless, when he took on other angel’s grace… so it must still be Jimmy IMO. And if he wasn’t Jimmy then why did Hael want Cas’s vessel so much? Because it was strong, it withstood everything Cas had done to it including loading it up with Leviathan. Hael wasn’t interested in Cas, she was interested in Jimmy. Cas was essentially human (or so Metatron said, although I am not include to be believe HIM at all) at the time Hael tried to hijack Jimmy from him. So, Jimmy must in some way still be Jimmy and if he were dead and his soul gone I don’t think Hael would have been interested. Lucifer wasn’t interested in Sam’s body, he was interested in Sam… his soul and what made him Sam. As I said to Lilah upthread, until I hear unequivocally from the show that Jimmy is dead I will continue to believe that he’s alive and that the power of his soul is one of the reasons Cas choose him to begin with. I dearly hope that TPTB don’t’ go this route with the angel lore; too much canon has been changed (trashed) already. The ability to inhabit a dead body negates angels having to ask for permission; it makes them more and more like demons.
Possession of vessels is science fiction and like Lilah I am off put by the use of rape in this context. It is a serious and violent crime and should not in my opinion be used in a discussion of this kind. It is disrespectful of actual victims. Again, JMO.
This subject was widely discussed on other websites so it is a legitimate topic. Maybe we should use the term nonconsensual instead. The vessels never did consent to sex, murder and the total inhalation of their families. You know angels supposed to be good and all.
I don’t care how many websites use the term rape for their discussions of what vessels do. I still find it offensive. That is my own opinion and the fact that others do it doesn’t change that. I will just avoid these discussions in the future.
Sorry Prix I wasn’t trying to pick a fight I just thought it might be better to use a different term. This has been discussed on this website and others before. It is a sensitive subject for many I realize that. No offense is intended by anyone here I’m sure.
Angels are not good nor bad.
They serve God and Heaven.
If that means taking out the first born sons,
so be it. Wiping out Sodom, Done.
according to the bibles.