Official description of “Supernatural” 8.10 “Torn and Frayed”
How are we all going? Surviving the hellatus? Busting to know what we’re in for when our favourite brothers return to our screens in the New Year? Well, here’s the official description/synopsis for episode 8.10.
“Supernatural” Episode 8.10 – “Torn and Frayed” – airs January 16, 2013
CASTIEL MUST SAVE A FELLOW ANGEL — Naomi (guest star Amanda Tapping) tells Castiel (Misha Collins) that Crowley (guest star Mark Sheppard) is holding an angel captive and Castiel must rescue him before Crowley finds out their secrets. Castiel turns to Dean (Jensen Ackles) for help.
Meanwhile Sam (Jared Padalecki) meets with Amelia (guest star Liane Balaban), who asks him to make a choice: stay with her or leave and never contact her again.
Robert Singer directed the episode written by Jenny Klein.
Thoughts?
Will Sam stay or leave?
Sound off below!
-sweetondean
It depends on how much they want the bond between Sam and Dean to be destroyed. If Sam stays with Amelia, I doubt Dean would ever forgive him. So I expect that Sam will go with Dean. But who knows?
I would rather see Sam chose Riot the dog get himself a car and drive off into the sunset . However seeing though that cannot happen because we all know there is only one choice so there isnt really alot to get all dramatic over then they should just get it over with.
Amelia or Dean neither relationship is on good ground the Amelia sl hasnt worked IMO and neither is the one with Dean if there was a hard heartbreaking choice here I could of got invested in prehaps it would of been different but there isnt.
I kind of agree with you about going off with Riot. Sam can’t stop hunting until the show does and right now the relationship with Dean is just not working. But realistically, Sam will go back with Dean.
Wow! “crawling back” makes me feel ill. The idea that after being tricked and lied to, Sam has to beg Dean to permit him to be with Dean, well I hope it doesn’t happen that way.
Who cares what Sam chooses? This season is horrible.
If this were real life, I would want Sam to choose himself and go do whatever it is he wants to do w/his life as he seems to be wholly unsatisfied w/his current lot in life. I would want Sam to be happy, and since hunting doesn’t seem to make him happy, let him go! I wouldn’t want him to go back to Amelia b/c I see NOTHING between them and she’s married. Ideally, he’d take some time to find himself and decide what he wants to do w/his life. If it’s hunting, great. If it’s bartending or being a repairman, that’s cool too.
But since we ALL know Sam must remain a hunter in order to remain on the show then he’ll eventually choose Dean and hunting.
This is why I hate this lame “hunting v. normal” arc b/c there is only ONE resolution. Unless Jared is quitting or being fired, Sam will remain a hunter. This arc is a WASTE OF TIME!!
And this episode description sounds HORRIBLE. Sam is, once again, left out of all the interesting aspects of the season. Does anyone really care if Sam stays w/Amelia or not? I guess some people do, but I honestly couldn’t care less. Maybe if the relationship had been developed and the actors had chemistry, I’d care, but it wasn’t and they don’t.
[quote]Who cares what Sam chooses? This season is horrible.
If this were real life, I would want Sam to choose himself and go do whatever it is he wants to do w/his life as he seems to be wholly unsatisfied w/his current lot in life. I would want Sam to be happy, and since hunting doesn’t seem to make him happy, let him go! I wouldn’t want him to go back to Amelia b/c I see NOTHING between them and she’s married. Ideally, he’d take some time to find himself and decide what he wants to do w/his life. If it’s hunting, great. If it’s bartending or being a repairman, that’s cool too.
But since we ALL know Sam must remain a hunter in order to remain on the show then he’ll eventually choose Dean and hunting.
This is why I hate this lame “hunting v. normal” arc b/c there is only ONE resolution. Unless Jared is quitting or being fired, Sam will remain a hunter. This arc is a WASTE OF TIME!!
And this episode description sounds HORRIBLE. Sam is, once again, left out of all the interesting aspects of the season. Does anyone really care if Sam stays w/Amelia or not? I guess some people do, but I honestly couldn’t care less. Maybe if the relationship had been developed and the actors had chemistry, I’d care, but it wasn’t and they don’t.[/quote]
Well I am in two minds here on the one hand I agree I dont think the Amelia sl has done alot for Sam but on the other hand he hasnt anything else and if it disappears which it more than likely will do what is he left with?. He isnt part of the Purgatory sl riding in The Impala next to Dean keeping the sit warm with a brother who thinks he has been a rubbish brother and has been deceiving his ride all along .
But Sam will chose Dean we all know that he may stutter to get there but that is ultimately where he will be
[b]Sharon[/b], I guess I (probably foolishly) think if Sam’s horrible storyline w/Amelia ends, then Carver will be FORCED to include Sam in the mytharc or write a better story for him. I know that’s probably foolish, hopeful thinking, but it’s all I can do at this point!
This story with Amelia isn’t going anywhere. I just hope we get the conclusion in the next episode so we (and Sam) can move on w/the rest of the story. I don’t want Amelia to tie Sam down like Lisa/Ben did w/Dean. It took forever for Dean to move on from them. I don’t want to see Sam running off to help Amelia in 8.21 or her bothering him in the 9th season.
That depends on where Carver thinks Sam belongs in the mytharc. Sam is fairly removed from it this year and I wouldn’t mind if we actually got his POV instead, the way we did when Dean didn’t have the mytharc, but so far, the writers haven’t given Sam much of a POV this season. I hope that once he breaks with Amelia, that will change. OTOH, they could tie Sam’s story and the mytharc together by having Benny kill Amelia. That would certainly give Amelia a part in the mytharc and Sam would be dragged into it as well.
Percy, that’s what I’m seeing as well. Sam is not a part of the mytharc [u][b]AND [/b] [/u] he has no POV. He really is, IMO, an non-entity this year. In seven years, I never questioned why Sam was on the show, but this year, Carver has me asking the question! This year, I’m actually thinking it would be best for Sam to leave Dean to go run a bar, be a repairman, etc. This summer, I was against them splitting the season, but they may as well have split the season for all the “brotherly love” Carver has shown us.
One thing this has shown me is something I always suspected . . . . that even if Dean got the mytharc, Sam still wouldn’t get the POV. This season, so far, proves that to be true. Sam is just floating. He has no story, no POV, no role on the show. He could be gone for a few episodes, and I’m sure the show would move along w/o missing a beat.
Like you, I was hoping once Amelia was gone, Sam would be brought back into the show since he’s been slowly but surely (IMO) diminished in importance to the overall show, but someone reminded me that Carver sees Amelia as the [i]love of Sam’s life [/i] so I’m not sure if she will ever [i]leave[/i]. He mentioned her being a permanent fixture so I’m guessing he’ll end the series w/Sam going off to be w/Amelia.
Ugh . . . . if the actors had ANY chemistry, I wouldn’t be as troubled by that ending but they have ZERO chemistry. I hate the thought of Sam ending up w/her.
[quote]but someone reminded me that Carver sees Amelia as the love of Sam’s life so I’m not sure if she will ever leave. He mentioned her being a permanent fixture so I’m guessing he’ll end the series w/Sam going off to be w/Amelia.[/quote]
I missed the interview where he said that. I’d have to know when he said it and read the whole thing, because although I can see Sam and Amelia as two damaged people who came together and helped each other heal and find peace, I can wholeheartedly buy that. The love of Sam’s life, I have much more trouble with. And her being a permanent fixture would mean a totally different show than I expect from Supernatural. If all this is true, and the writers don’t back away from it, then the show looks like it’s going to be the Dean and his superfriends hour with occasional appearances by Sam the evil and boring brother. That is not what I signed up for.
Ah well, I’ll have to see where this is going. All good things must end some time and others are enjoying the show, so I’m sure the Dean hour will bring fairly good ratings.
Hi sweetondean:
In the midst of the doom and gloom I’m looking forward to this episode even though Amelia leaves me colder than the mashed potatoes of yesteryear. Just hope the dog gets a good home. 😉
Sam will eventually choose Dean as we’d have no show if not. Still, I’m curious as to how it pans out. Wish to see again the bond between them and hear the brotherly bantering like in the first 3 (and best) seasons. Just IMHO. 😛
Loving season 8 so far (except for Bitten, yawn!). Been filling in as usual with dvd episodes every single day. Hope to see Benny and Garth again before season end. Also, really hope to see more purgatory goings on. Love that part! 🙄
On with the show!!! 😆
This was a complete waste of a story line for Sam as it can only have one result. I’m sure Amelia will be gone after this and I won’t be unhappy about that. However, that means Sam has NO story line. So he will have sit in his seat in the Impala and let Dean call all the shots so he can prove he loves his brother. That gags me.
I’m with whoever said Sam should take Riot and leave.
Given all the crap that’s gone on between Sam and Dean I don’t see how they can got back to being brothers. For that to happen Dean would have to admit he’s not always right and we all know that will never happen.
Yes, I’m bitter about what JC has done to Sam and to the brother’s relationship this season.
I agree with Amelia being a complete waste of time. Firstly could they NOT find more compatible chemistry? (this just shows that they were never really invested in this story arc) Secondly; This story line was never going to go anywhere as they know how fans feel about female guest stars. If they wanted to make this something that would mean something to the storyline, they should have made a kick-ass Amelia who could take on anything, not another damaged individual). But I still cling to the hope that Carver has something up both his sleeves regarding Sam seeing as he was always meant to be the centre of the story. But I do think that they wasted a golden opportunity with Amelia. She could have been SO many things, yet they turn her into a cliche
I am looking forward to this episode as much as I’ve looked forward to every one this season. Not sure what Sam will do but I think the brothers have much to hash out before that is a viable option. They will, of course, end up together. I hope it is one they mutually want and agree to. They do need and love each other in spite of recent events and harsh words. Dean does not now or has ever thought his brother is “rubbish”. That is based on 7+ seasons of Dean being there for his brother when he needs him, time and time again. Hurtful words spoken in anger have never changed that.
Personally I think Sam should chose hunting not Dean or Amelia, he should stick with hunting to get this last mission done, close the gates to hell and then go and do whatever it is that makes him happy if he survives that is.
I love this Hades. I think you are right
Since none of the synopsis for this season have really given clues as to what actually happens in the episodes, it’s hard to make assumptions based on them.
My guess is that it’s too early for the Amelia story to be over (since Carver appears to be very enamored with it), and it’s too early in the season to resolve the brothers’ issues. Given that, I think Sam will be in on “rescue” in some way, but will choose Amelia.
I could care less what Sam and Amelia do, however. It’s a terrible storyline. I won’t mind it if, in fact, Carver splits the Winchesters up. It’ll make it easier to FF Amelia off my TV screen, until such time as he decides to get rid of her for good. More than that, I’ve found Sam to be such a jerk this year (especially after Citizen Fang), that I’d be thrilled to see Dean working with just about anybody but Sam… *ducks rocks**. I’ll explain.
So far this season, the show hasn’t given me any logical reasons as to why Sam borderlines hates Dean. Neither has it given or shown me any logical reason through the casting, writing, or acting as to what Sam “has found” in Amelia. Unlike Benny, I have made no audience connection with that character at all, nor do I find the love triangle soap thing fits with anything remotely connected to Supernatural or ‘the supernatural”, so I just don’t care what the two of them do.
I am curious about this episode, because writer assistant Jenny Klein wrote it. She wrote Out With the Old, and I found that one kind of fun, but weak on the mytharc and weak on the big “And then” ending, where Frank disappeared. I’m curious to see how she did on this one. I’m all in for giving workers on the show career breaks.
Another ultimatum for Sam? Is that three now; John, Dean and now Amelia? I guess past experience will show that no matter what way he chooses there are going to be consequences.
For my part, I think he’ll pick Amelia. He’ll pick normal. Not over Dean, but over hunting. If this were the last season then I’d like him to do that. The guy was happy, and whole, in that life. (Or as happy and as whole as he could be with his brother believed dead.) The hunting life has taken everything from him, and I guess, now that Dean and Castiel are back, it can take everything from him again. How many times has Sam actually seen Dean die now; a couple of hundred? I can understand Sam not wanting to be around to see it again.
Add to that, for the sake of the storyline, if Sam picks hunting and that’s the end of it then it will be a very timid exit for a storyline that has ignited the fandom since season 8 began. I think if they’re interested in progressing Sam (as a character) this year then he’ll need to pick normal.
I know there has been much criticism of Sam’s decision this year. Some people are loathing it, some are loving it, some aren’t getting it etc. However, from a marketing point of view, it was an absolutely genius move. Sure it has divided the fans but fans are discussing it in droves, and discussing fans are watching fans, and that’s always going to be the bottom line. I know some people might think that’s not fair, especially on the character that is being most criticised, but SPN and it’s characters are not Carvers children; they’re his job. Conflicting brothers, while it might not be everyone’s cup of tea, get’s the fans talking.
That’s another reason why I think Sam will pick Amelia. If he does, the amount of discussion (criticism, outright condemnation…..) it will garner will be so huge; they’ll probably have to close down the internet! That can only be good for the ratings.
[quote]So far this season, the show hasn’t given me any logical reasons as to why Sam borderlines hates Dean.[/quote] Some posters have been saying this since the season began and I’m genuinely at a loss as to where people see it. Could someone please point out to me where it has been shown that Sam hates Dean? How would viewers like Sam to show his happiness that Dean is alive? Should he dance a jig or try to hump Dean’s leg every time he enters the room? We saw the hug, the relief, the apology, Sam is working with him, he’s doing the hunts Dean wants him to do. He supported Dean when he was down about Castiel and Purgatory. He’s giving him advice. He’s laughing at his jokes and there have been plenty of fond looks at Dean when he does one of his ‘Deanisms’. How do those reactions tie in with the idea that Sam ‘borderline hates’ Dean?
However, what Sam has [i]also[/i] done this season is stand his ground about not taking any more snide remarks from Dean, and wanting out of hunting. He’s questioned Dean if he thinks he’s wrong and and get pissed at him when Dean has done or said things to be pissed at him about. Both brothers act like that toward each other. I’m sorry but that’s not hate. At least it’s not hate to me.
this 100%
I thought Sam would pick Dean but now I hope he doesnt, I think he should pick Amelia and tell her everything. He should also tell Dean that he wont be sticking around after they close the hell gate. Lay it on the line for everyone, thats all he can do. The rest is on Amelia and Dean.
also should have added that some people are going to hate on Sam no matter what, so does it really matter what the writers have him doing? At the end of the day ratings are up, people are talking about the show and you know what they’re mostly talking about? Sam. Nothing gets this fandom in a tizzy like a good old Sam contoversy. I suspect that a lot more people actually like the storyline than hate it, the online fandom dont represent the whole fandom after all they just represent the most vocal and the anti Sam bregade are probably the most vocal of all.
Truer words, Hades. Haters are going to hate no matter what, may they be Sam haters, Dean haters, Cas haters, angel haters, demon haters, Impala haters . . . Well, maybe not the last one. Fandom does love a controversy and a chance to take sides. I don’t know that there’s a great conglomeration of fans that love the Sam storyline, but it’s always true that online doesn’t represent the whole of people who watch the show. But let’s be fair–whichever anti-brigade is loudest pretty much depends on which sites you visit. There are places where Castiel is pretty much the anti-Christ, and there are places and fans for whom Dean can do no right, ever. So it all depends, doesn’t it?
I don’t know if you expect an answer or not, because I am sensing some hostility, or sarcasm, in your post. To answer fully would take the discussion away from the subject matter, but I’ll give you a brief answer and drop the subject. These types of discussions only go in circles, never finding any resolution.
I see Sam as thinking of himself, once again, as a victim, and in doing so, he is not seeing how much distrust and distance there is between he and Dean. From Dean’s response to Benny’s, “You have Sam,” and the burned phone, I think Dean does realize the distance.
That notwithstanding, Sam has been unexplainably angry at Dean since the premiere. Instead of getting pissed about the snide remarks, he could be questioning himself as to why Dean would find the need to prepare a burn phone [i]in advance [/i] and just how much that speaks to the trust that is no longer between the brothers. That’s what I would expect a ‘smart’ Sam to do, a Sam that is thinking outside of himself.
Sam showed more empathy for the motel owner’s son and more joy in Cas’ return than anything I saw related to Dean. He also showed complete contempt for Dean in hiring an unhinged hunter to trail Benny (for no given justifiable reason — remember Lenore and her nest, which Sam knew for less than an hour, and the emotion-driven Kate from Bitten who they let go without a minder), allowed said unhinged hunter to coldcock Dean, believed the unhinged hunter over Dean and then chose him over Dean until he abandoned him for his own personal reasons.
The biggest thing for me, though, is that Sam gossiped to the unhinged hunter about Dean’s Purgatory experience. Martin couldn’t have known anything about it, except for Sam telling him. Since when do the Winchesters rattle their mouths about each other to other hunters or civilians? This, to me, puts Dean in big danger with other hunters — remember Roy and Walt and the hunters that came after Sam in Free to Be You and Me. I don’t think the Show will go there again, but the implications for gossiping are show canon.
All of this may not qualify as borderline hate, but it does qualify as pure contempt and disregard. I don’t mind the tension between the brothers at all, but I do mind when tension is depicted as contempt, and I haven’t seen that on Dean’s part.
I do see Dean as having moved on from the past co-dependency between the brothers. I think Dean learned from Benny in the Purgatory experience that trusting friendships can be formed outside of the brotherhood, and that’s a good lesson for Dean to have learned. And the thing about this friendship that I don’t think Sam understands is that if it all goes South, if Benny breaks that trust by feeding on humans, it will become a brutal death match between Benny and Dean. Dean knows that, and so does Benny.
I moved my reply to this to the Bitterness thread, as it was off topic.
I totally agree with not seeing Sam hate Dean. You summed up how I feel about that perfectly.
[quote]Another ultimatum for Sam? Is that three now; John, Dean and now Amelia?[/quote]
Har. Well, those who issue ultimatums generally lose out, whether it’s real life or fiction. It changes whatever the original conflict was into a control issue.
[quote]Add to that, for the sake of the storyline, if Sam picks hunting and that’s the end of it then it will be a very timid exit for a storyline that has ignited the fandom since season 8 began. I think if they’re interested in progressing Sam (as a character) this year then he’ll need to pick normal.[/quote]
I don’t see what the progress would be. One of the things that has irritated me about the “normal” storyline is that it resets Sam back to Season 1 and actually [I]discards[/I] all the changes in him since then. Â He’s no longer the guy who found his place as a hunter, he’s once again the guy who says, I’ll do this one thing and then I go home. He also can’t choose Amelia out of dissatisfaction with Dean, because there’s a bigger issue at hand — the chance to shut the gates of Hell to the benefit of billions of people. He’s taken enough of a hit this season for supposedly ignoring his responsibilities. I also frankly don’t want to end up with a situation that paints Dean as the true hero of the series, and Sam as just the guy who tagged along. I want the real Sam back.
Anyway, with Cas saying, “stow your crap” in the promo, I expect that’s exactly what’s going to happen, and any real resolution will be postponed.
[quote]I know there has been much criticism of Sam’s decision this year. Some people are loathing it, some are loving it, some aren’t getting it etc. However, from a marketing point of view, it was an absolutely genius move. Sure it has divided the fans but fans are discussing it in droves, and discussing fans are watching fans, and that’s always going to be the bottom line. I know some people might think that’s not fair, especially on the character that is being most criticised, but SPN and it’s characters are not Carvers children; they’re his job. Conflicting brothers, while it might not be everyone’s cup of tea, get’s the fans talking. [/quote]
I’m not a big fan of arguments like this. Good writing and good marketing might produce controversy, but controversy is no proof of the reverse. Sometimes you just suck. This is an intelligent series that attracts fans who expect storylines and conflicts to arise organically from plausible situations and character continuity, not just to get our goat. There is a breaking point at which the audience recognizes it’s just being manipulated and starts to move on. I hope we’re not there, but there has to be a hell of a reason why Sam doesn’t just say, “I thought you were dead and didn’t want to upset the natural order of things”, and Dean doesn’t answer, “Argh, okay, let’s go kill some monsters.”
[quote] This is an intelligent series that attracts fans who expect storylines and conflicts to arise organically from plausible situations and character continuity, not just to get our goat. There is a breaking point at which the audience recognizes it’s just being manipulated and starts to move on. [/quote]
Yes, exactly, RMF. This is my problem with the “good marketing/good TV” argument. Eventually, “discussing fans” become too disenchanted, they start to feel “played”, and then they quit being “watching fans”. It’s a fine line they’re choosing to walk this season.
I expect Sam will choose to stay with Amelia, so that the fan angst reaches a boiling point before there is any pay off reached. I sincerely hope there is a point to all this, and that it will be “friggin’ worth it!”
[quote]I also frankly don’t want to end up with a situation that paints Dean as the true hero of the series, and Sam as just the guy who tagged along. I want the real Sam back.[/quote]
I agree with this, but I have the uneasy feeling we are going to get Dean the hero and Sam the screw up once again. It certainly was the POV being primarily presented in the first nine episodes. Dean wants to save the world, Sam wants to let it go to hell just to be normal. Dean trusts Benny, Sam doesn’t, Benny is shown to be good. Even this spoiler has Cas going to DEAN and Dean alone for help while Sam stands on the sidelines with a soap opera story that doesn’t fit the Supernatural universe.
[quote]I’m not a big fan of arguments like this. Good writing and good marketing might produce controversy, but controversy is no proof of the reverse. Sometimes you just suck. This is an intelligent series that attracts fans who expect storylines and conflicts to arise organically from plausible situations and character continuity, not just to get our goat. There is a breaking point at which the audience recognizes it’s just being manipulated and starts to move on. I hope we’re not there, but there has to be a hell of a reason why Sam doesn’t just say, “I thought you were dead and didn’t want to upset the natural order of things”, and Dean doesn’t answer, “Argh, okay, let’s go kill some monsters.”[/quote]
I know I am reaching the breaking point, where this just seems more like manipulation than good story telling. It feels like setting up controversy for the sake of controversy. The most unfortunate part for me is that the writers took the character who has been the most vilified in canon and in fandom, Sam, and made him again act as if he didn’t care much about Dean or about the world AND they haven’t made a convincing case for most fans that the relationship with Amelia was strong enough to justify it.
These spoilers just make me sad. If Sam tells Amelia he can’t stay right now, and she says, “If you go, stay gone”, then Sam is thrown into hunting by default and he doesn’t really get a choice to leave or to chose hunting based on weighing options, because once again, he has almost no other options than staying with Dean.
[quote]I know I am reaching the breaking point, where this just seems more like manipulation than good story telling. It feels like setting up controversy for the sake of controversy. The most unfortunate part for me is that the writers took the character who has been the most vilified in canon and in fandom, Sam, and made him again act as if he didn’t care much about Dean or about the world AND they haven’t made a convincing case for most fans that the relationship with Amelia was strong enough to justify it. [/quote]
Agree with you. I just can’t help to say that season 7 had the brothers in a good place. Sure, we have Sam almost insane and Dean being alcoholic and snuffed out of flame but they don’t have problem with each other. Even if they didn’t really talk and relate with each other and treated each other like partner instead of brother, THIS could’ve and should’ve developed into a natural progress/arc of pulling the brothers closer.
They should make a plot that pull them closer after the end of S7 instead of creating an unnecessary rift and artificial angst to break them more further apart with animosity towards each other. I mean, do you need to burn the house down first if you only want to fix the roof?
Great post, RMF! I agree w/all your points.
I know several fans who have STOPPED watching b/c of this crappy Sam plot. My good friend who I used to watch the show with in person or online doesn’t watch as religiously as she did. I, myself, am the least interested in Supernatural than I’ve ever been. Yes, I know Carver won’t care about me, my friend, or those who have changed the channel /c the rating are still good, but I think this story is definitely alienating some fans, myself included.
It’s not “good controversy.” It’s poor storytelling, IMO. I’m still watching but Supernatural is no longer “must see tv” for me. I’m mainly watching at this point to see how the story of the Winchesters ends. If it gets really bad, I will probably just stop watching.
I couldn’t agree more w/you that conflict should organic and natural, not contrived and manufactured. As you said, if Sam thought Dean was dead (don’t know why he would think that), having Sam state his reasons and explain himself would have gone a long way w/Dean and the fans, IMO. But Carver didn’t want that. He wanted the brothers at odds (for some unknown reason), and that’s why things have played out the way they have. The kids in the werewolf episode claimed Sam and Dean sat around talking about their years apart, but they, clearly, didn’t speak about anything important. Sam didn’t expound on why he didn’t search for Dean or how he concluded that Dean died. Dean certainly didn’t disclose any info about Benny or what he did in Purgatory, so what exactly did they talk about for an hour or so?
I also love your point about the [i]regression [/i] in Sam’s character. I don’t see how Sam’s life w/Amelia progresses or matures his character. Sam had accepted his role as a hunter, but, as you said, we’re now back to Sam wanting “normal” or to finish college. How did we get to that point? If Sam changed his opinion re: hunting, I would have loved to know why. Why won’t Carver have Sam explain himself? Why all the mystery?
What’s the story for Sam this year?
IMO, there is no story. I don’t know why Sam thought Dean was dead. I don’t understand why Sam didn’t investigate Dean’s disappearance. I don’t know why Sam no longer wanted to hunt. I don’t know why Sam thought he had no responsibility for Kevin. I don’t know when Sam fell for Amelia. I don’t know why Sam is attracted to Amelia. I don’t know what is so special about Sam’s relationship w/Amelia.
We’ve gotten, IMO, the skeleton of a story for Sam, but no meat. Will we get any meat . . . that’s the real question. I fear Carver is happy w/the way Sam’s story is being told. Apparently, he’s happy w/the FBs and everything. I feel the FBs have told me absolutely NOTHING about Sam’s year.
I wouldn’t necessarily agree that it has reset him back to season 1 while all the changes have been discarded. In the past, Sam accepted hunting, but he never embraced it and he’s never openly chosen it. He might have chosen Dean but he’s never chosen hunting. He’s never been the ‘I am hunter, hear me roar’ that Dean is. He’s never been sat down (until possibly this point) and been told ‘Here’s hunting. Here’s normal. Pick.’ For the most part Sam has been compelled to hunt, and then stay in the hunt by external circumstances; Jessica, Dean’s death, Apocalypse, Soullessness, Leviathans.
However, things are different now. He has no one to avenge. He knows that if he doesn’t choose to hunt, then Dean will still have Castiel (and even Benny) to hunt with so he won’t be hunting on his own. If he doesn’t choose Amelia, then she will go and live her life. She might be disappointed or heartbroken but she won’t end up stuck to a ceiling because of it. (Though I often theorise that Benny will kill Amelia….)
However, what Sam has also realised, and what he said in 8.01, is that he now knows it’s not just up to him to fix it. He made the point that other hunters took care of things. They most probably did. Sam didn’t mention that he killed the Leviathans yet the Leviathans were still dying and popping up in Purgatory. Who killed the Leviathans? Probably other hunters.
The same applies to Kevin. I hate to sound like a cold hearted bitch (well, more than I usually do) but not only is Kevin the responsibility of the angels, there will always be another Kevin. There will always be another person in trouble, there will always be other monsters, there will always be other gates of hell to close and there will also always be other hunters so at what stage does Sam get to say ‘No more’ without fear of condemnation, without fear of not being thought of as a hero? The world did not end before Sam and Dean were born, and it will keep on truckin’ long after they die. Someone else will step up to the plate and they’ll take care of things until it’s their turn to die and so it continues. Sam has realised that there is not a [i]need[/i] for him to hunt. So, for me, he’s now in a better place to make a decision as to whether he [i]wants[/i] to hunt.
In relation to Sam not being thought of as a hero; that’s on whatever fan thinks that. However, there will always be people who will say that Sam is not a hero, regardless of what he does. It’s been that way for 4 ½ years and I’d bet my last euro that it will continue, not only for another 2 ½ years but long after the show ends. There will always be people who will say that Dean/Sam/Adam/Castiel/ Benny is the ‘better’ brother and they’ll drag up whatever ‘evidence’ they want to prove their point. However, as long as there is even one fan out there who interprets the ‘evidence’ differently and disagrees with them then it is not a consensus.
I mean, define ‘hero’. Is it someone who doesn’t want to hunt but does it anyway or someone who wants to hunt because they love it? Would, despite all the odds and anchors, escaping from a life that has cost you everything to try and live your own life, not be considered equally heroic? I’m sorry but there’s nothing ‘heroic’ about choosing to do something that will make you miserable. I think people really need to stop comparing Sam and Dean in terms of who is the ‘hero’. There will never be a winner because there will never be a consensus on what a ‘hero’ is. There is no one act that makes someone on SPN a hero.
I know that controversy does not make good writing and truth be told I’ve found much of the writing to be pretty clunky this season. However, controversy [i]does[/i] ensure that people will initially watch, and then if they like what they see they’ll keep watching. Carver needed a hook to get people back into the season, and he got it.
In relation to being manipulated, that will depend entirely on the fan and also how that fan perceives being manipulated. TV shows manipulate people the whole time whether that be via shock factor, going a step too far etc. Example, Dean tortured in hell. However, the shock factor there was that he enjoyed it. Sam drank demon blood but the shock factor is that he slept with Ruby. It’s the shock factor, the controversy, that keeps people talking.
You’re right about there being a breaking point. However, what is a breaking point for one person will be a reeling in point for another. Some fans, whether they be Sam fans or Dean fans, will leave, no doubt. That’s always been the case and always will be. However at the same time, others will come back. That being said, I don’t believe there would ever be a mass exodus of fans because they feel ‘manipulated’.
I’m very betwixt and between this season. Part of it is probably my own impatience at the slow movement of things. I’d need to stop and think before I could tell you what the main arc is this season, I often feel that they’re writing for a different (um, younger…..) target audience this season and it feels like they’ve taken the ‘easy peasy lemon squeezy’ route a lot of time. The tendency to go dragging up issues that I thought had been long resolved is head-wrecking. Mostly though, I feel there’s been a lot promised that hasn’t been paid off yet. I’m quite disappointed with the Purgatory storyline which held a lot of promise but, thus far, has been of a dead duck for me because for the most part Purgatory itself consisted of little more than pout, prowl, pounce and decapitate.
Being honest, my breaking point in terms of interest will probably hinge on the answer to Amelia’s ultimatum (if it even is an ultimatum). I know Sam can’t stay in suburbia long term but should he choose to stay there at that particular moment, regardless of what happens from there on in (Jeez, Amelia can get hit by a bus driven by Benny at that stage!), there will have been a payoff (no matter how satisfactory) to that particular storyline. This will then give me hope that there will be a payoff to the other storylines introduced.
For me, the worst thing they could do with that storyline would be Sam saying ‘No way, Jose, hunting is my life now’ and then heading off because that will prove, for me, that is[i]was[/i] was just controversy for controversies sake after all, and nothing to do with a master plan.
Perception is always tricky, and I think the truth lies somewhere in between Sam borderline hates Dean and Sam has done nothing wrong. It’s not just a matter of Sam standing his ground against Dean–there’s been some bad behavior on both sides here, if we’re honest.
I’ll admit that I found Sam’s reaction to Dean’s sudden reappearance as off–if you truly think someone is dead for a year, I would have expected more of a reaction than Sam gave, frankly. I saw the hug, but the flatness of Sam’s reaction was there, at least to me. I didn’t think it was a sign that Sam wasn’t happy to see Dean necessarily, but it did seem strange. The same can be said for Dean’s focus on Sam not hunting, when it seems that the real issue is and continues to be that Sam admitted he didn’t even try to find out what happened to him. We can find deep reasons behind each reaction, but no one knows for sure why the boys react the ways they do.
Sam is working with Dean, but he’s made it clear that he resents it (“You want me here, I’m here”; “I guess free will’s only for you”). Dean has made it clear that he wants to work with Sam, but at the same time he can’t let go of his own anger at Sam’s seeming abandonment of him.
Dean opened up to Sam and told him he finally feels at home with himself in hunting, and Sam tells him he’s only waiting for his chance to finish the hunt and leave. He, of course, has the right to do so, but I like to think Sam is smart enough to realize that giving Dean a little reassurance or telling him how he plans on fitting Dean into his normal, i.e., that he’s not just going to cut him out of his life, would go a long way in smoothing out the rough edges. Dean isn’t hearing anything Sam is saying about his life or normal. Granted, Sam started out by telling him how he’d found something he’d never had and that he decided to enjoy the good things, but clearly from the flashbacks there’s been more than that. Dean is no more receptive to that than Sam is to understanding Dean’s connection to Benny. Neither has been particularly forthcoming, if push comes to shove.
Sam has bought food for Dean, laughed at some of his Deanisms, and even offered advice re: Cas. He has also had his bad moments of not listening to Dean, laying down ultimatums of his own, and self-absorption. I agree with Tim that this makes him a brother, not a villain and not a saint. Both Sam and Dean are guilty of wanting their brotherhood to be on their own terms, and they both have been guilty of bad behavior. I suppose one’s personal bias leads one to choose which one has been worse–I’ve seen plenty of comments around this board that state that Dean doesn’t want Sam anymore, doesn’t care about him, etc. As you point out, Tim, the PTB have set up all of this angst and strife in fandom, and they’re probably kicking back and laughing at us all.
Sam choosing Amelia could be utilized for character development, but what sign of development? He’s putting himself first? Choosing normal? I’m not being sarcastic–I genuinely am not clear on what growth is going to come fromt that choice. We’ve seen show play with this theme before, but since show is operating under the belief that this isn’t their last season (my opinion only), I don’t see how it can lead to anything different than what we’ve seen before. Sam could choose normal, and he’s of course within his right to do so. But in doing so, he’s cutting himself out of the main story of the show, and I’m not sure how that’s going to please fans. Ultimately, though, he’s going to end up back in hunting, and we all know that. So I’m not sure how this isn’t going to end up being Lisa part deux–a storyline that just ends up not going much of anywhere. I’d like to see it turn out differently, but we’ll see.
As usual emmau, completely agree with everything in this comment. It is SO nice to have company in the neutral zone sometimes!! I see the problems from both angles and hate to see the blame totally dumped on either brother.
[quote]Sam choosing Amelia could be utilized for character development, but what sign of development? He’s putting himself first? Choosing normal? I’m not being sarcastic–I genuinely am not clear on what growth is going to come fromt that choice. [/quote] Um, yeah, I guess. Putting himself first, choosing normal. Now, I know that that idea will surely prompt exclamations of ‘Sam ALWAYS puts what he wants first’ but in truth, has he? He’s accepted the life and he’s done the hunting but he’s never said that he wants it. He’s never found the raw pleasure in it that Dean has. I think it’s more to do with Sam doing what he felt he [i]needed[/i] to do as opposed to what he [i]wanted[/i] to do. Like Sam said in ‘Heartache’ (I think) ‘If I’m in, I’m in’.
However, there’s more than choosing normal than just you know, [i]choosing[/i] normal. It’s also realising that he can [i]have[/i] normal. He has said that he always felt like a freak, even at Stanford. The small matter of the demon blood, powers, Lucifer’s vessel, hallucinations etc won’t have done anything to assuage that feeling. However, that year that he had, of normal, of being able to choose it, and have it not end with someone burning on the ceiling etc, could have brought him to the realisation that most of those things happened, not because of who he is but because of the choices he, and others, made. That should make Sam more comfortable in his own skin. And that [i]would[/i] be development and growth. (At least for me.)
[quote]We’ve seen show play with this theme before, but since show is operating under the belief that this isn’t their last season (my opinion only), I don’t see how it can lead to anything different than what we’ve seen before.[/quote] It doesn’t have to end like Mary or Jessica; killed by supernatural means. It doesn’t have to end like Ben and Lisa; separated for their own good. It could possibly lead to something different if all this (closing the gates, normal, Benny) was the endgame of a three year storyline and I kinda feel that it is. Let’s face it, we’re so far from the supposed mytharc this season that I can’t even see a field, let alone find a gate. I don’t know much about Carver outside of his work on SPN. However, from what I’ve read on here he’s meant to be good at broad development and the slow reveal so it is possible.
I wouldn’t be the one to say that Sam has always put himself first. I think Sam and Dean have both had great moments of sacrifice and moments of yearning for something for themselves. Sam has always been the one more able to reach for what he wants to me, because he does have a stronger sense of self-possession than Dean. That’s not a hit on Sam, however. It has led to great things for him (going to Stanford) and some not so great things (falling in with Ruby again because he doesn’t want to be hunting when he’s old), but it’s not a character flaw to know what you want and be willing to take steps to get there.
However, Sam has chosen hunting before. He had the choice to leave hunting before (S2 when Dean wanted to get away from hunting and Sam’s “destinyâ€; S6 when he was resouled), and he chose not to. He has also, when Dean was faltering in his pleasure in hunting, expounded its virtues and believed it to be a very worthwhile choice. Because I see Sam as a self-possessed character, I don’t believe he always stayed with hunting out of need or obligation—I think he did see value in what they did. He may still see it, though he covers it up with saying things like “wanting my life to count†or “be a real person again.â€
I think Sam becoming more comfortable in his own skin would be a great thing, and a great sign of character growth. Sam has always placed himself in the outsider role. Some of that is due to circumstances beyond his control, and some of that is in his head (i.e., his identifying so strongly with Amy last season). Being able to grow beyond that and realizing that it’s choices, not destiny, would be a great thing for him. On the other hand, as Sam’s flashbacks continually show the flaws our first soft-focus glimpse of his normal and we hear Sam referring to his year as ‘running away’, I’m not sure that he really feels that he chose normal anymore. Maybe he does, or does he now see his year as hiding from grief and anger. Now, if Sam could choose normal without feeling as if he turned his back or was hiding, that would be a good thing. He’s not going to be comfortable leaving hunting until he can take that step.
However, after watching Sam freak out because Dean was hunting alone in 8.5, I’m not sure Sam has this all reconciled in his own mind nearly as much as he previously thought. He seems quite resentful of having to be back on the hunt, but at the same time, he doesn’t seem to be ready to completely let go of it if it means that Dean’s out hunting without him. I think that’s pretty understandable, but if Sam is going to choose normal, he’s got to figure out how he’s going to reconcile having his family in hunting while he’s not. That would be interesting to see.
I will agree that normal doesn’t have to end like Mary, Jessica, or Ben/Lisa. I think that if closing the gates is the endgame, Sam could very well choose normal afterwards. I don’t see where the mytharc is going this season, either, and it might very well drag out to the end of season 10. I think it’s the interim with Amelia I can’t quite reconcile. Now, maybe Sam will talk her out of this ultimatum, or maybe he won’t. Maybe they’ll find a way to each other in the end, or maybe Sam will find himself another spot to plant his flag in the normal landscape, so to speak. Or maybe he won’t and he’ll decide to stay a hunter. At this point it’s hard to say. I’m willing to give Carver time to work things out, since I’ve heard that about him being good at broad development and slow reveals, but at this point I’d like to see some movement one way or another on both the mytharc and Sam’s story. They both seem to be a bit in limbo at the moment.
I don’t know if it’s necessarily true to say that Sam had a choice to leave hunting back in season 2. By then he was knee deep in destiny and special kids. He couldn’t just leave the hunt back then because he [i]was[/i] the hunt back then. Similarly with season 6, not only were they invested by then but Dean had also felt that he lost his purpose, so Sam’s aim was to get him to see that purpose again.
I’ve no doubt that Sam sees value in hunting. Not only has he said it but, given what it entails, it would be hard to [i]not[/i] find value in it. However, Sam has learned that there is also value in other things. And while these other things might not have the glam factor of hunting, on the plus side, there’s a good chance that Dean won’t end up with his guts in his hands by Sam fixing a heater or eating organic apples.
I also don’t have any doubt that Sam’s year was dominated by grief and anger and even with Amelia, his happiness was tempered by that. It might not have been front and centre of the screen but, for me, it’s definitely there. However, was Sam running away or was Sam just running and if it’s the former, what was he running away from? Was he running away from hunting, was he running away from Dean, was he running away from himself or was he so overwhelmed that he just ran?
I don’t know if I’d say that Sam is overly resentful at being back in the hunt. He seems committed to whatever hunt they’re on, as he confirmed in [i]Heartache[/i] (yep, it was [i]Heartache[/i]). However, this season, he has been very insistent that this is the last one. This could be interpreted as being resentful but it could also be interpreted as not wanting to give Dean any false hope that this is going to be a permanent thing.
The premise of SPN has changed to such an extent that Dean would not [i]need[/i] to hunt on his own because it’s not just Sam and Dean anymore. He now has Castiel, who wants to be a hunter, and quite possibly Benny (though I don’t exactly see Sam getting on board with that). Should he want him, he also has Garth. Dean does not need Sam to hunt with him, but (similarly to season one) he wants him.
I’ve a slightly different interpretation of reconciling Sam to Dean hunting. In an interview earlier in the season JP mentioned the impact that [i]Mystery Spot[/i] had on Sam. (I can’t find the interview, I’m afraid.) It was a very revealing comment that, for me, goes a long way to explaining Sam’s actions and decisions this year. Sam has seen Dean die in front of his eyes countless times. All of these times he has died violently, sometimes he’s died by Sam’s hand but the vast majority of times he has died because of Sam; the Crossroads deal, the original target of Roy & Walt and the Trickster wanting to teach Sam a lesson. I can’t imagine what it would be like to look at someone every day and wonder how they’re going to die that day, know that you won’t be able to stop it, know that you won’t able to bring him back and also to know that one day he [i]won’t[/i] come back, full stop.
As much as I hate giving real life comparisons to TV programmes, I’m gonna! My uncle died back in the autumn. He was after having major surgery for cancer twice. Both times he was given the all clear and both times a different type metastasised (is that the word??) in another part of his body. He’d gotten the all clear for this particular cancer two days before he died. About a month after it happened, his surgeon rang my aunt to offer his condolences etc. During the conversation he told her that, given his past history, it was probable that, had he not died when he did, it would return again. She was telling me about it and she said that she felt then that it might have been a mercy that he died when he did because she wouldn’t have been able to go through seeing him die a third time.
In rather a crude way, I can see similarities in Sam’s attitude here. I don’t think he could face seeing Dean die again. Now this can be interpreted as being pretty selfish and cowardly, and it possibly is. I mean, life is the greatest gift one has and it should be clung onto and fought for. However, they (the aunt and uncle) lived with this every day for over 2 ½ years and the waiting and the fear and the dread of ‘Maybe today is the day’ is crippling. You could see it in them. Could Sam be the same? Is he keeping his distance as a means of protecting himself so that he won’t [i]have[/i] to see Dean die again?
I dunno, it’s just a theory, and it’s a very maudlin one at that. Nothing like that has been confirmed or even suggested, and even if something like this was shown on screen, I don’t know if viewers would consider it acceptable. In film and TV, we’re used to seeing our ‘heroes’ fight to the bitter end, regardless of cost, while leaving a trail of bodies behind, so some might perceive Sam as being weak, or cowardly or selfish etc because he [i]should[/i] have done this, that or the other. However, it’s very easy to be all ‘Do not go gentle into that good night’ about it but the constant fear, and constant fight is hard, it’s exhausting and it can be a never-ending battle so at what stage does it become a relief to not have to fight and be afraid anymore?
I’m afraid I have to disagree that Sam didn’t have a choice to leave hunting in S2. He was discovering things about the special kids and his father’s fear of his destiny, and he wanted to see that through. That’s admirable. He could have, however, just as easily decided that he didn’t believe in destiny and the special kids weren’t his issue. Now, would the fight have inevitably come to him when the YED snatched him up? Probably, but he could have laid low until that timem and what he did until that moment was still his decision. So while I think he made the right choice, it was still his choice. In S6, Sam could have similarly walked away. In fact, it would have been even easier because Dean was ready to leave hunting and it wouldn’t have taken much to convince him to go with Sam and settle into normal. Sam, for his own reasons, stayed and convinced Dean that what they were doing was worthwhile. That again, was Sam’s choice. It’s hard to me to argue that Sam needs to realize that he has a choice in his life while acting as if that hasn’t been the truth in the past. It has.
See, I agree that Sam has in the past seen value in hunting. I think currently he sees value in it in the abstract, but saying he wants to leave now ‘so his life will count’ muddies the waters to me as to what value he actually assigns to it. I don’t think anyone finds hunting to be a glamorous job, but whether Sam is fixing a heater or eating organic apples has little effect on Dean ending up with his guts in his hands. I don’t understand what you mean there. Dean has always seen the value in normal—he stated clearly that hunting is supposed to be fighting for families way back in S1. He doesn’t believe he can have it. Sam has always seen the value in normal as well, and he may now believe he can. If so, God bless. So I think we agree there?
I further agree that Sam’s year had an overhanging pall of grief, even if it’s not explicitly being shown on screen. In fact, I think that’s one of the bigger oversights of Sam’s flashbacks—for Sam and Amelia their grief is plagued by way too much tell and way too little show. When I talk about Sam running away, I am paraphrasing what he said in 8.8. I think he was running away because he was overwhelmed by grief. I think he was running away from himself, from his emotions, and to an extent from hunting, since he saw that as the cause for all of his losses. I do still think that he has to be comfortable with leaving without seeing as fleeing hunting, and 8.8 leads me to the belief that he does see it that way at the moment.
I’ll have to agree to disagree, because to me Sam does seem resentful of being back on the hunt. He is committed, but he is not happy about being there and he has let that be known. Not because it’s his last one, but because he doesn’t want to be there at all (“You want me here, I’m hereâ€; “I guess free will’s for everyone but youâ€). I don’t think it’s wrong of Sam to state upfront his intentions not to continue hunting, but I think he goes a step beyond that when he projects his choice on Dean, as if Dean has forced him into hunting again. Sam has to own his choice here. I think he has of late, since those comments have dropped away, but I think there’s evidence that there’s some negative attitude on Sam’s part here.
Yes, SPN has changed to the extent that Dean doesn’t have to hunt on his own if Sam doesn’t wish to continue. I even think Dean has accepted that to an extent, because he was willing to go without Sam to find Kevin (he was surprised when Sam included himself in the hunt in 8.1) and he went alone to help Benny. I agree that he doesn’t need Sam, but he wants his brother’s company. I don’t think that’s a negative thing really. Sam could have gone hunting without Dean when Dean was failing to find purpose in hunting, but he convinced Dean to be there because he wanted his brother by his side. So I don’t think it’s wrong that Dean wants him there any more than it’s wrong for Sam to want something else.
I remember Jared’s interview regarding Mystery Spot, but to me, that’s not what I saw on screen in 8.5. This was Sam panicking because Dean had gone on a hunt, to a vampire nest no less, without him or any hunter that Sam knew. He was upset and rushed to Dean immediately. So while Sam might be trying to distance himself from Dean dying, he certainly wasn’t able to commit to that when push came to shove.
Honestly, though, if this is where Sam is going, that he’d rather send Dean off and cut off contact so he doesn’t have to deal with Dean dying again, then to me he needs to commit to that. Leave hunting and tell Dean that he doesn’t want contact anymore. It’s better than putting himself and Dean in this back and forth push and pull scenario where they’re both going to end up even more resentful of each other than they seem right now. And truthfully, no, I don’t think it would be accepted by the audience at large, because TV ‘verses are not real life. We do tend to expect our larger than life heroes to behave as larger than life heroes when the chips come down. There can be moments of doubt and faltering, but at the end we expect them to come through, because what’s the fun of escapist fiction without a hero? Plus, while it’s understandable to wish for a dying relative to be released from pain, it’s quite another to send your family off to face a dangerous situation alone because you can’t deal with it. Still, if Sam wants to make that choice, then he’s allowed. But I don’t think he can, truthfully. As much as he wants to, I think he’s going to have issues with Dean being out there hunting without him, as we saw in 8.5. So yes, to me, he still has to reconcile that, because the calm, detached ‘whatever will be will be’ attitude Jared spoke of in interviews is not what we’re seeing now.
I am sorry for your family’s suffering, however. I do completely understand your aunt’s feeling of relief that your uncle didn’t have to go through any more pain.
Thank you, but there’s no need for it (This is why I am loathe to use examples from personal life. It feels like I’m putting people on the spot or making them uncomfortable.)
However, as I (hope I) clarified in my earlier post, the aunt was talking about her own relief that [i]she[/i] would not have go through it again, while also being powerless to do anything about it but sit and wait for it to happen. I know how remarkably selfish it looks written down (and it [i]does[/i] look remarkably selfish written down) but I don’t think it is. I just think its raw honesty. I think that, in situations like that, you don’t have the time to process how it’s affected you because (a) you’re caught up in trying to be a tower of strength and (b) what you’re going through seems petty in comparison to what the other is going through so you feel guilty for feeling it.
I think we’re a very emotionally repressed people! (That would be ‘we’, the Irish, not ‘we’, you and I. You and your people possibly process things way better.)
Well, I can also see how it would be a relief for her personally. I don’t think it would be selfish of her to feel that way, and you’re right–there’s often not time for you to think about yourself in a situation like that, or if you do it’s usually immediately pushed aside with ‘how can you be thinking about yourself at a time like this’ guilt. So I do see that point, even if I think it’s not quite a perfect analogy.
Sorry, but I’m going back to quoting. All this ‘In relation to..’ is a pain in the arse and it’s confusing me.
It seems that we’ve reached a stalemate on a number of points in this discussion, emmau.
[quote]I’m afraid I have to disagree that Sam didn’t have a choice to leave hunting in S2……. [/quote] For me, Sam’s choice in season 2 was to either (a) keep hunting so as to get the situation sorted or (b) run, hide and hope that he doesn’t wake up one morning with a hunter’s knife in his chest or a guy with yellow eyes smiling down on him. Sorry, but to me that’s not a choice. That would be like Sam saying that he had a choice to walk away after the Apocalypse. He did, but what sort of choice would it be? In relation to season 6, okay, Sam can be selfish at times but I don’t think he’s so bad that he’d use his brother’s depression, his lowest time, as an opportunity to get what he wanted.
[quote]…… ‘so his life will count’ muddies the waters to me as to what value he actually assigns to it. ….Sam is fixing a heater ….. I don’t understand what you mean there. Dean has always seen the value in normal…….. He doesn’t believe he can have it…… [/quote] (Sorry for all the ‘….’ I’m not being selective; I’m actually referencing your whole quote. However, using whole quotations was putting me over the word limit. )
With the bulk of Dean’s deaths the catalyst has been Sam. He went to hell to save Sam. The Trickster killed him multiple times to teach Sam a lesson. Roy and Walt felt they had to kill him because he knew that they killed Sam. Therefore, if Sam is not hunting (and doing innocuous things like fixing heaters and eating apples) then he cannot be the cause of Dean’s (next) death.
I know that Dean sees the value of normal, however that normal is always for someone else, not for him and he doesn’t believe for Sam. I’m not too sure if he believes that he can’t have it (his declaration of such came in season 6 when he was still reeling with the repercussions of his brother in hell, his own time in hell, Sam’s soullessness and the loss of Ben and Lisa) or he doesn’t want it. Hunting is now what is normal for him. He’s at peace with that (for this year, at least).
In relation to ‘so my life will count’, I don’t see it as dissing hunting, but dissing his involvement in it. Sam’s life in hunting has brought about a huge amount of destruction. Were he not a hunter, then he’d most probably have been dead at 22, killed like the rest of the special kids. Had that happened then there would have been no John in hell, no Dean in hell, possibly no dead Jess, no screwed up choices, no Bobby in a wheelchair and no Apocalypse. (Okay, he helped stop the Apocalypse, but he also started it and a fair few people died because of it.) He’d never have caused the misery that he did while he was soulless. Bar Dean, he’s made very few people happy (and it could be argued that his existence has brought Dean more misery than anything else). In a very mawkish way, there are very few people who are the better for having known him; as a hunter.
However, as Sam Winchester, dude with a dog who goes to college and fixes heaters, he can get to know people so maybe, taking the hunter out of Sam, could lead to making their lives better just be knowing them. I mean, he made Amelias life better without the need for any salt or guns.
[quote]……….I do still think that he has to be comfortable with leaving without seeing as fleeing hunting, and 8.8 leads me to the belief that he does see it that way at the moment.[/quote] I don’t quite get this, emmau. Surely leaving, whether he be fleeing, walking or crawling, is leaving? I mean, it has the same final result. Either way, he was leaving hunting behind in the distance. Sam may have started by sprinting but at some stage he slowed down to a walk, and he ended up with Amelia. At a later stage he started crawling, and they got a place together and then he stood up and started looking forward and he applied to college.
[quote]…… (“You want me here, I’m hereâ€; “I guess free will’s for everyone but youâ€)….. [/quote] In relation to those two quotes, I think the context in which they were said is quite important. I might have the first one wrong (what episode was that in again?), but wasn’t that at a time that Dean was expressing surprise that Sam was being proactive by actually actively participating in the hunt? If so, then Sam’s quote is understandable because it would seem as if Dean believed that he was going to do a half assed job of it or be a moaning Michael because he didn’t want to hunt long term. In relation to the second quote, Dean was just after giving Kevin a ‘Well, this is your life, you’re stuck with it’ spiel. Sam believes that Kevin does have a choice in the long term. His actions now will ensure that he has a choice later on, and he wanted to remind Dean of that. Kevin is only a prophet as long as there is something to read because no tablet equals no prophet.
There is a line in one of the Godfather films where Michael Corleone says ‘Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in’. I see a lot of this with Sam. He wants out, but the fact that he has been engrained in hunting for so long, added to the various draws and pulls make it hard to just stop outright.
[quote]….. I don’t think that’s a negative thing really. Sam could have gone hunting without Dean when Dean was failing to find purpose in hunting, ……[/quote] I didn’t say there’s anything wrong with it, and I certainly didn’t say it was a negative thing. However, Sam has never been as gung ho about hunting as Dean is. Dean is a hunter, Sam is a man who hunts. That being said, the idea that Sam would leave Dean floundering on his own is something alien to any Sam I’ve seen on screen.
The same applies to Dean’s surprise that Sam included himself in the hunt. This was at a time when Sam believed that Dean, fresh out of Purgatory, was planning on going to up against demons alone. However, had Dean said ‘Listen Sam, myself and Castiel and a new hunter called Benny are gonna do this one’ (and it was not the first episode of a new season of a TV show) would Sam have been as quick to go then?
[quote]…This was Sam panicking because Dean had gone on a hunt, to a vampire nest no less, without him or any hunter that Sam knew. He was upset and rushed to Dean immediately….. [/quote] With this situation I saw it more as pure blind panic at the thought that Dean might die again, so soon after he came back, that led Sam to rush to Dean. I don’t think that Sam was upset and panicking because Dean was hunting alone but because he had believed that Dean was out with a ‘friend’ and suddenly he ring’s him looking for help because he was in serious trouble in a vampire nest. Had Dean sauntered home safe and sound after that hunt then I don’t think he’d have been upset, I think he’d have been angry that he didn’t tell him what he was doing. I also think he’d be furious with Dean at the thought of hunting a vampire nest alone but when he found out that Dean was hunting with a partner he’d have been more okay with it (until he found out that partner was a vampire). I also think that he’d be confused (and pretty hurt) as to why Dean didn’t tell him about the hunt in the first place.
Also, hunting in a vampire nest isn’t an easy hunt. It’d be reckless, unnecessarily dangerous, and ridiculously stupid to do it on your own. I think that Sam would have been more worried about Dean’s reckless behaviour getting him killed than hunting alone. I dare say that if Dean had buggered off to do a little old salt and burn then Sam would not have been as anxious. They have worked (what we would call) ‘easy jobs’ alone before.
Stalemates happen, what can I say? Sorry not to use quotes to help out here, but I find I’m not particularly skilled with that, so apologies in advance.
I agree that Sam didn’t have a good choice in S2, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a choice. As for S6, I feel like you’re putting words in my mouth a bit here. I never said that Sam was selfish or that he would have been using Dean’s depression to get what he wanted. By Dean’s words, leaving hunting was something he’d been wanting for a long time. Sam agreeing and leaving hunting with him wouldn’t, to me, be some form of manipulation. It would be Sam listening to Dean’s words and helping him do what he said he wanted. Now granted, Dean might still have been unable to leave hunting behind, but I don’t see how taking Dean at his word is selfishness or using his feelings in some nefarious way on Sam’s behalf. Not that he was wrong to want Dean with him in hunting, but my point remains that Sam had decided to stay on the road and encouraged Dean to stay with him both in S2 and S6. We can agree to disagree, however.
I can agree that Sam’s presence was part, if not catalyst, of many of Dean’s death. But if Sam’s belief remains, as it always is, that hunting itself is a dangerous event, Dean is in danger whether Sam is there or not. For example, in 8.3, if Dean had gone to confront the MotW alone, there is a good possibility that he would have been dead. So Sam not hunting wouldn’t have saved him. Yes, Sam wouldn’t have been the cause, but I doubt that would have been a lot of comfort to Sam presuming he learned of Dean’s death afterwards.
I’m afraid I again agree to disagree that Sam isn’t dissing hunting when he says things like ‘so my life will count’ and ‘be a real person again.’ If Sam is still such a big believer in destiny, he should be able to see that, just like Dean with Adam, if he hadn’t been there the angels/demons simply would have replaced him. If that had occurred, his replacement may not have had his strength or support system in Dean in order to overcome his destiny and would have doomed the world. Behaving as if his presence would have stopped any of this from happening would be a bit myopic, frankly. Also, if I go by Sam’s words, he’s made his peace with all of that and let go of his guilt last season. So the idea that he’s still carrying around that feeling to me goes against canon. So to me, he is comparing hunting to normal and finding it lacking. That’s his right, but I don’t think he’s doing it out of some sense of self-loathing. I think it’s because it’s now his turn to hop back on the ‘hunting is terrible’ merry-go-round now that Dean has hopped off.
I see what you mean—leaving is leaving, no matter how it happens. Sam talking about looking forward and applying to college was at the beginning of the season, around the time he expressed his resentment over being back in hunting. By 8.8, those remarks had disappeared and I’m not sure if Sam still feels the same way. But I think it was much easier for Sam to leave because he was lost and couldn’t figure out what to do about Dean or Kevin. Now that they are both back in the world I think it’s harder for Sam to ignore them than it is for him to ignore random monsters/hunts going down around him. So that’s why I think walking away is harder, and why Sam now sees his choices as running, because he does feel responsibility towards Dean, Kevin, the gates, etc.
I’m sorry, but I don’t see how the context changes the tone of Sam’s responses. Yes, Dean was surprised that Sam was going to come with him and participate in the hunt, but ‘You want me here, I’m here’ was fairly moaning Michael, to borrow your expression. It very much makes it sound like Sam doesn’t want to be there and is only there because Dean wants him to be there, and that he’s not happy about it. As for the second quote, I don’t recall Dean saying any such thing to Kevin. Now, he said that to Sam after they were outside Kevin’s hide-out, but in the scene before Kevin was excited about what he’d figured out from the tablet and the idea of shutting the gates of hell. Kevin didn’t express any regret about his situation to Dean—he did that in the scene afterwards with Sam, after Sam apologized for dropping the ball. So Sam’s free will line, in my opinion, was him projecting his own displeasure over being back in hunting onto Kevin and Dean. But the fact of the matter is that Kevin was still a prophet and whether Crowley pursued him wasn’t in Kevin’s realm of choice. His not having the tablet didn’t save him from Crowley in 8.7. So if Sam believed that, he was wrong, wasn’t he?
Sam may want out, and I agree stopping outright is going to be difficult. But the Godfather quote indicates that it’s an outside force causing him to go back, and that to me is exactly what Sam was expressing with those two lines. That quote is perfect, really. Sam wasn’t saying that hunting was engrained in him and it was hard to walk away. He was saying he was being pulled back into hunting by Dean, and he wasn’t happy about it. Of course, this is probably a stalemate point as well.
I agree that Sam has never been gung-ho about being a hunter, but it is something he has chosen for himself before. He is allowed to leave, but saying he won’t leave Dean floundering on his own puts the onus on Dean for him staying in hunting. That’s still Sam’s choice. If Sam wants to leave hunting, he has to accept that Dean might be going up against demons alone because he knows Cas isn’t always going to be at his side and Dean is an impulsive hunter who doesn’t always wait for others before he acts. So staying because he doesn’t want Dean hunting demons alone causing him to stay just proves my later point—he doesn’t have this quite as all squared away as he thinks.
Sam can panic knowing that Dean is going into a dangerous hunt alone and rush to his side, as in 8.5, but again, how does Sam see this working if he’s out of hunting and Dean is still out there? That’s my question. What does Dean go to help friends with? Hunts. Dean didn’t call him for help in that hunt, actually—he thought about doing it and then didn’t. Sam called him, and panicked when he heard that Dean was hunting without him. I missed the part where Sam shrugged off his panic because he found out Dean had a partner, though. I still think that Sam’s got issues with the idea of Dean hunting without Sam there to watch his back. I agree with you that hunting is a dangerous job, but Sam knows Dean. He does take risks and is occasionally reckless. That’s not going to change because Sam’s not there, and Dean has made no indication that he has a permanent replacement lined up for Sam. So Sam has to reconcile that in his head going forward.
With all due respect, emmau, I haven’t put words into your mouth not even insinuated that you said them. They were ‘my’ words and at no stage did I say that they were yours. (And in relation to a later comment of yours, emmau, I’m pretty sure you can retract, change or add anything you want. This is a discussion on a public forum, I don’t think it’s meant to be taken all that serious.) I think that Dean’s state of mind when he said it is important.
Think of it this way, if a friend of yours started drinking and got mad drunk one night and declared that she always wanted to cover herself with a huge tattoo of Billy Ray Cyrus, despite you knowing that she’s always hated him, would you let her do it or would you try to stop her?
No, I don’t believe that Sam would get a lot of comfort from not being the cause of Dean’s death. (Though, given Dean’s desire to remain in hunting, I dare say that Sam would, while hoping he [i]wouldn’t[/i] have to hear it, be prepared [i]to[/i] hear the news of Dean’s death.) However, I do believe that death would be harder to cope with if you (a) caused the death of someone you love (b) could not prevent the death of someone you love and (c) were witness to the violent death of someone you love. That’s just me, you might think different.
I also don’t find the idea that Sam would still harbour feelings of responsibility for what he did in seasons 1-5 to be ‘myopic’ in the slightest, to be honest. If you do something that causes damage you’re always going to think that if one variable changes the outcome will be different. I doubt you’ll ever find Sam saying ‘Jeez, it’s just as well it was me that started it because at least I could stop it.’ Letting go of guilt does not mean that he was glad that it went the way it did because things all worked out in the long run. Add to that, making peace and letting guilt go does not equate to forgetting or not feeling regret that it happened in the first place.
Actually, re dissing hunting; why does ‘comparing hunting to normal and finding it lacking’ mean that he’s dissing hunting? I like crisps but I prefer chocolate. That doesn’t mean that crisps are any the lesser because of my preference. Could it not indicate that he places a lot of value in the normal life? I mean, he hasn’t mentioned that he finds hunting lacking, just that it’s not doing it for him.
But yes, you’re right with the whole idea that it’s probably just Sam’s ‘turn’ to want out and that is, to me, so old. Which is why I hope to God that they go actually go someplace with it for once as opposed to Sam inexplicably getting a revelation that hunting is what he always wanted and tada, he’s off the merry go round again.
In relation to what you said about responsibility, there will be responsibility no matter where you go. However, how much does the ‘responsibility’ he feels he has towards Dean, Kevin, the gates etc, dictate his ‘choice’? At what stage does Sam get to say ‘That’s not my responsibility’ without being told that it is? This is the first time in a long time that the hunt is not personal for them (ie happening to them or because of them, or Castiel…..) Kevin is actually the responsibility of the angels. Closing the gates of hell is the responsibility of every hunter on the planet. Sam is only responsible for Dean as much as Dean will let him. However, is this ‘responsibility’ a push/ pull factor for Sam?
And while Sam has responsibility there (in hunting) but he also has responsibilities elsewhere. He has a job, a girlfriend, a dog, rent/mortgage to pay. Might be that they’re not considered as worthy as the gates etc but they’re still responsibilities and they are important to those to whom he is responsible.
Yes, Crowley pursued Kevin without having the tablets at hand, but there were still tablets around at that stage; Crowley just didn’t have them then. However, if the tablets were destroyed or if the gates of hell were closed then there would be no need for a prophet and theoretically, Kevin could get out so Sam wasn’t necessarily wrong.
In relation to the Godfather quote, I don’t remember Sam saying that Dean pulled him back in. Hunting, the need to avenge, the need to stop something else, that is what is ‘pulling’ him back in; a feeling that you have to do it. However, what will happen once the gates of hell are closed, will they just stop hunting? Will Sam be able to retire then? Not likely. There will probably be another ‘We have to do this one, Sam. Innocent people are dying’ scenario and the whole thing will start all over again. This is the point. It will never end for them until someone says stop.
If what you said about Dean being ‘impulsive’ and ‘doesn’t always wait for others’ is true then, as such, the responsibility for Dean’s life [i]is[/i] in Sam’s hands so where is Sam’s ‘choice’? I mean, is choosing to stay with someone because they’ll do something to get themselves killed if you don’t, true choice? Now, while I know that Dean might often be reckless, Dean has never been stupid. Has Dean ever gone up against demons on his own, and if not, why would he start doing it now? Surely if it was too dangerous to do it before then it’s too dangerous to do it now.
Hypothetical situation, Sam gets a long term injury and he [i]physically[/i] cannot hunt any more. If Dean decides to stay hunting then is he going to go on hunts that he knows will put him in danger and if he does have to do those hunts will he hold off until he can get a partner? If he can’t get a partner will he pass the hunt off to someone else? Or, will he do the hunt on his own?
However, if Sam is to get out, then it’s unfortunate, but Dean [i]needs[/i] to be okay with it and work with it. He knows how easily Sam can be manipulated into doing what he wants. We saw that in 8.09. If Dean says ‘Right Sam, no bother, you quit. Now, if you don’t mind I’m just off to hunt down a wendigo/vampire hybrid. It’s extremely dangerous but I guess there’s no one to help me so I don’t have a choice but to go on my own. Innocent people are dying’ etc then he [i]knows[/i] that Sam won’t let him do it on his own. Decades of experience have taught him that. Should Sam play what he hopes to be his bluff and say ‘Righteo, off you go’ and hope to God he’s right or should he sate his worried mind and go with him ‘just this time’? So if Dean pulls something like that (and I don’t believe he would), then is it a choice in the truest sense of the word or is it like the choice he had back in season two; a choice in name only?
Add to that, Sam will always worry about Dean (and vice versa), especially if he’s in a dangerous profession. However, he’d probably be just as worried about him if he were a firefighter or a policeman or in the army. Brothers worry about each other. Sam surely worried about Dean every day he was at Stanford and Dean did likewise. However, I think that Dean loves his brother enough that he’s going to not want him to worry him unnecessarily so he would surely take the same precautions as he would if Sam were hunting with him.
So, I guess the question is, does Sam (or any character) actually have a choice in this instance; a choice in the truest sense of the word? No push or pull factors such as his brother will deliberately put himself into dangerous situations if he’s not there, no ‘this responsibility is greater than that responsibility’, no ‘we have to do it because no one else can’, no obligation, no manipulation, no coercion, no criticism, no choosing normal means not choosing Dean? I don’t think he does, and probably won’t until the show is over.
And I went over the word count anyway!
[quote] ….. Leave hunting and tell Dean that he doesn’t want contact anymore. …….We do tend to expect our larger than life heroes to behave as larger than life heroes when the chips come down. …..Plus, while it’s understandable to wish for a dying relative to be released from pain, it’s quite another to send your family off to face a dangerous situation alone because you can’t deal with it…..[/quote] There’s been nothing ever said that Sam wants to cut off contact with Dean; not by Sam or me. Not wanting to hunt does not mean he wants nothing to do with him. They can have plenty of contact while not working together, and were this not a TV show about co-dependent brothers; they’d possibly have done that a long time ago.
However, Carver has stated on more than one occasion that he has felt that who Sam is was sometimes lost under the weight of the various mytharcs. I took that as being that he wants to emphasise the human side of Sam. What is more human than fear of loss and reacting accordingly?
In relation to my relation (heh!) I obviously phrased that paragraph poorly. The relative I was talking about was my aunt. She said that it was a relief to [i]her[/i] that she did not have to see her husband die again because she knows she would not be able to do it again. Okay, possibly selfish, but to me, understandable.
We saw how violently emotional Sam and Dean both were in the aftermath of the others death ([i]No Rest for the Wicked[/i] & [i]All Hell Breaks Loose[/i]). Should we assume that Dean’s deaths didn’t affect Sam in a similar way (or in a cumulative way)? I guess what I’m trying to say is that, after seeing someone die, and reacting to that death and circumstances surrounding it, almost two hundred times at this stage, would Sam find relief in the knowledge that he would not have to see Dean die, or go through the emotional turmoil of seeing Dean die, again?
(General disclaimer, and it’s not aimed at you, emmau; I’m just covering my ass here. I’m [i]not[/i] saying that Sam wants Dean dead. I’m [i]not[/i] saying that Sam is not happy that Dean is alive.)
Also, just to be clear, I never said, not insinuated, that Sam should send Dean off to face a dangerous situation alone because he can’t face it. I’ve been quite emphatic about Dean [i]not[/i] hunting alone. If Dean had no one to hunt with then Sam would hunt with him. However, if he hunts with someone else, someone he trusts, then I think it would be easier for Sam to see Dean hunt without him and go live his normal life.
No, I did take a step over the line into hyperbolic territory with the Sam should walk away and cut off contact line. I’ll retract that now, if it’s allowed. Still, I don’t know how Sam sees their relationship working with Dean hunting and him not doing so, and I’m not sure Sam knows how he’d deal with it, either. I agree if this weren’t a show about two brothers hunting, they could have and might have separated long ago, but that’s neither here nor there, really. It still all boils down to me to how Sam sees his relationship working with Dean if they’re not hunting.
With respect, I agree that your aunt’s situation and the situation Sam and Dean are now in are not similar enough for your analogy to work for me. As I stated above, I understand the relief your aunt felt that she did not have to watch her husband die again and go through all that pain with him again. She’d been saved from that pain. Sam not going with Dean isn’t going to save him from the pain of Dean dying again when/if it occurs. It just means he’s not going to be there, and knowing Sam that’s going to cause guilt and pain of its own. He may not see it, but I don’t think he’s going to escape any pain or feel relieved just because he wasn’t present at the time. If he’s planning on keeping contact with Dean, he’s going to notice when the contact stops. He’ll then go looking for Dean, find out he’s dead, and I doubt his emotional response is going to be, “Well, thank God I wasn’t there to see it.”
I understand what you’re saying about Dean not hunting alone, but once Sam leaves hunting that’s not his choice anymore. If Sam chooses to stay with Dean because Dean doesn’t have a partner, that’s still Sam’s choice. I agree it would be easier for Sam if Dean had a Sam-approved partner, but Dean can find a partner or hunt alone or choose to leave hunting to a basket weaver and that’s his choice. Sam has to accept that Dean’s choices about hunting are his choices, just as Sam’s choice whether to leave hunting is his decision. Sam can’t stay just because Dean is hunting alone if he’s going to be resentful of doing so because he really wants normal. So again, I think right now Sam is the one who has to figure out what he wants and how he’s going to reconcile normal with Dean hunting.
I Choose Neither Dean (whose text manipulation was on par with Demons and Angels actions in S4 – 8) or Ameila (a female dean clone). Because neighter choice is appealing.
A agree. Sam should take the dog, get his own car and do…whatever. Anything is better then having to choose between Dean and Dean 2.0.
[quote]I Choose Neither Dean (whose text manipulation was on par with Demons and Angels actions in S4 – 8) or Ameila (a female dean clone). Because neighter choice is appealing.
A agree. Sam should take the dog, get his own car and do…whatever. Anything is better then having to choose between Dean and Dean 2.0.[/quote]
You said it, Amy. Given how he’s been treated by Dean, I can’t see why he would choose to go with him. And given that Amelia is married, why would he choose her?
I don’t see any realy choice here. So, Sam, take the dog and go find yourself a real friend.
Why do I see that Amelia is a really evil and unfaithful woman? I mean I know she’s damaged but that’s not enough reason to go behind her husband (Don’s still her husband, right?) and demand Sam to choose her or leave forever.
I mean what would she do if Sam chooses her? Then, she’ll divorce Don? Because she already has a replacement?
If Sam choose to leave her then she’ll go back with Don as a back up plan?
“If you choose me, Sam, I’ll divorce Don. But if not, then don’t come back and I’ll still have Don by my side.”
What a smart and cunning [s]bitch[/s] woman! her behavior is as low as demon. She got nothing to loose. Clearly it’s a continuity of her early behavior of arrogance and putting her self on a high pedestal.
I’m not saying evil. A lot will depend on the ultimatum. Don originally said they should let Amelia decide what she wanted. Sam then decided that he needed to give Don a chance to make things work with Amelia and let her save Don the way she saved Sam. Amelia could simply be saying that when Sam left he wasn’t really giving her a chance to decide between Sam and Don, he kind of made the decision for her by leaving. So if he really wants her to make a choice, as opposed to getting Don because Sam isn’t around, then Sam has to stay around so she can sort things out.
So much is going to depend on how they write this whole ultimatum. They haven’t done a great job of exploring Sam and Amelia, unlike Dean and Benny, and with the added storyline of save the angel (presumably Samandriel) there isn’t enough time to devote to building the Sam and Amelia relationship in this episode that I can see either.
Loathe as I am to defend Amelia or anything surrounding her storyline, I can kind of see a sympathetic angle . . . .?
If we accept what the flashbacks have told us, Amelia was a depressed, alcoholic mess after losing her husband. She found Sam, and they fell into this ‘let’s shut out our pain together’ relationship, even moving in together. She might have just felt like she was getting her feet under her, finding a new chance at happiness, when her husband suddenly comes back to life and returns.
Now, ignoring the cheesetastic soap opera-esque nature of this, Amelia has to be feeling torn right then. Grief obviously held a lot of anger, resentment, regret, etc, and with Sam she’d pushed all of that away (much like Sam did with his grief for Dean). Now it’s back in her face, she has no idea how to deal with her husband, and she’s facing losing her life preserver in Sam. Sam, bless him, tells her one moment that he doesn’t want to lose her and will give her some time, and then immediately turns around and tells her he’s leaving, without asking what she wanted. Now we understand why Sam did this, and it’s admirable, but it’s another sea change for Amelia.
Fast forward months where Sam has presumably had no conflict with her, Amelia has presumably done what seemed like the right thing to do and reconciled with her husband. Her feelings for Sam, much like his feelings for her, might have lingered, but let’s say she’s trying to make things work with Don. She’s managed, again, to find some stability. Suddenly Sam’s back, lurking in her yard and disappearing without saying a word.
In context of all of that, I can see why Amelia would feel the need for Sam to declare his intentions, stay or go. Sam, at this point, might seem just as wishy-washy to her and Amelia seems to us–I love you, I don’t want to lose you, I’m leaving, I’m back but maybe I can’t stay. She’s been through a lot, too, and while she loves him, I can see why she needs some stability at this point that if Sam can’t provide, his popping up and disappearing isn’t going to help her cope and could endanger her relationship with her husband. So . . . yeah, I think it makes sense for Amelia to possibly feel like Sam is messing her around by disappearing and popping back up and want him to just make a decision so she knows what to do.
Good lord, I just defended Amelia. 2013 might turn out to be a strange year.
Or what percysowner just said, in a much more concise way than I managed.
Okay . . . . this is not meant in a rude way but I haven’t gotten any of the depth you’re getting from the Sam/Amelia relationship. It truly feels like you’re getting a different show than me. Hahaha! You seem to have gotten a lot from this relationship (i.e., Sam was Amelia’s life preserver, Amelia was a depressed alcoholic, both Sam and Amelia were grief-stricken and used each other to deal w/their pain, etc) whereas I’ve gotten absolutely nothing!
There’s nothing wrong w/anything you’ve written. It all makes sense, but, IMO, none of it has been shown. I don’t think the writers are that “deep” or “complex.” The writing & character development is very shallow, IMO.
It just feels like people are fanwanking about the relationship rather than building on what we’ve been shown. For instance, you’re not the first person who has implied she was an alcoholic, but I’m not sure why you guys feel that way. What was shown to imply she was an alcoholic or even depressed? I got bitchiness from her but not grief-stricken depression masking itself as anger. Sam didn’t even seem depressed in the FBs, IMO.
Admittedly, my mind drifted during some of the Sam FBs but I don’t think I missed any big points like Amelia being an alcoholic, or her needing Sam to move on after her husband’s “death.”
I don’t know. The FBs just haven’t been written w/any depth or complexity, IMO. Sam’s relationship w/Amelia hasn’t been well-written.
Anyway . . . . hope you don’t take offense b/c none was meant!
There were subtle hints that Amelia was drinking a fair amount. When Sam fixed her garbage disposal, it was stuffed with lime skins, while Amelia poured herself what looked like a Margarita. Then when Sam and Amelia first slept together there was a pan to an empty bottle and two glasses which I think was meant to indicate that one or both had gotten drunk during that dinner. I’m not sure Amelia was an alcoholic, but there were hints that, like Dean, she was using alcohol to cope with her issues.
I admit I didn’t see depression. I did see defensiveness especially when she said she didn’t want to be pitied for having lost Don. Amelia was originally off putting, and bossy when Sam bought the dog to the hospital. She was judgmental and prickly when Sam was fixing her garbage disposal. And accused Sam being a potential stalker. As the relationship progressed, she threw Sam a picnic, talked to Sam about losing Don and was willing to listen to Sam’s story about losing Dean. They moved in together and seemed warm and comfortable with each other. I pegged Amelia as someone who had been hurt by life, and who was making sure it didn’t happen again by keeping people away. As she grew closer to Sam, the defenses went down. I had to do a lot of looking at the tiny clues placed in the scenes and I do admit, the relationship needed way more fleshing out than Carver has been willing to devote to it. But I do think there are some clues as to Amelia’s personality throughout the flashbacks.
Thanks! I am not a drinker so I guess the thing w/the limes went right over my head. I have friends who drink, of course, but I don’t really pay much attention to how their drinks are made or anything. And I remember people remarking on the number of bottles around her hotel room, but again, I guess I just didn’t take much notice. My mind does tend to wander during the Sam/Amelia FBs. LOL!
IMO, they are doing more “telling” than “showing” w/Amelia and Sam/Amelia. For instance, Sam and Amelia both speak about how messed up they were or how they were saved by the other but we haven’t seen any scenes depicting this. We basically just have to accept it as fact, and I don’t think the writing or the acting is helping that come across. Jared is a great actor. Lisane seems fine too. But as you said, I don’t get depression, anger, or anything from their scenes. Sam definitely doesn’t seem loss or devastated in the FBs. I know many make a lot of his panic about the dog, but if that was supposed to represent how messed up Sam was following Dean’s disappearance then I think it failed.
Cliche though it may be, but having Sam and Amelia meet in a bar as they both drown their sorrows would have better conveyed the sense of loss or grief that I guess we’re supposed to be getting from their scenes. And I know Carver clearly doesn’t want to do this, but it would have really helped to see Sam directly after Crowley left so the audience could understand his headspace. If there’s no twist (and I don’t think there is), then it was a bad move, IMO, for Carver to start Sam’s FBs [i]months after[/i] he decided to not look for Dean and just drive around aimlessly.
We got Sam hitting the dog and Amelia forcing him to take it. The next FB was the picnic scene, I believe. Then, we get him being a repairman and her accusing him of stalking her. They may have also slept together in that episode, and the next AM, she tried to get rid of him. Then, we see them having dinner w/her father, which ends w/her husband’s return. And the last FB is w/Don confronting Sam, and Sam leaving.
For me, we’ve gotten the bare bones of a story. I’m curious as to why Carver thinks I would be rooting for Sam/Amelia. I wonder why he thinks I would care about their relationship. I may be the only one, but I [b]always[/b] wanted Dean to hook back up w/Cassie. Yep. Cassie from [i]Route 666[/i]. I thought they were super cute together and had chemistry. If Sam had run into Sarah from [i]Provenance[/i] again, I would have been interested in that relationship.
Something is off, for me, w/Sam and Amelia. Admittedly, I was never interested in Sam being in a relationship, but I’m objective enough to like a well-written story. This just hasn’t been well-written. We’ve been told they were both messed up and clung to each other, but I just don’t see it. Sam has barely spoken in the FBs, and he doesn’t look particularly sad or depressed in the FBs either. It also doesn’t help that the actors have ZERO chemistry w/each other. None at all.
I understand they can’t really spend too much time on Amelia or this story b/c it’s such a far departure from the basis of the show, but that’s why I don’t think Carver should have gone w/a romance angle. For this to truly work, Carver, IMO, has to spend some time showing us the relationship and how it developed. We have to spend some time w/Amelia and getting to know her so we care about her. I don’t think Carver accomplished that on a widespread level.
No offense taken. Perception is a tricky thing, and I fully admit that what I think is there is based on small clues and probably some supposition on my part. But I don’t think that the flashbacks have given us nothing–I think they’ve given us a view of two people who don’t want to be viewed as weak and don’t want to talk about their pain, so it was avoided at all costs. Amelia, to me, was an alcoholic in the way Dean was an alcoholic last year–lots of bottles lying around and the limes for margaritas, but not scenes of falling down drunkenness. I further agree that Amelia was prickly, defensive, and bitchy. Her afterglow confession about her husband was meant to give her a reason to be so, and in some people grief does come out as anger (see the Winchesters). The morning after she was desperate to get rid of Sam because he’d seen that ‘weakness’, and she didn’t want to deal with it. So maybe it’s not depression, per se, but I think it can be argued that Amelia was definitely dealing with some pain/grief at this point, or maybe trying not to deal with it, depending on your perspective.
Sam, to me, was doing the same thing as Amelia at this point. He buried himself in that town with a dog and a job and was hiding from everything. Plus, he was then able to focus on figuring out Amelia and getting together with her, and when Sam is grieving (Jess, Dean), he tends to set a goal for himself and tunnel vision his way right to it. That to me is why Sam didn’t seem depressed any more than Amelia–they both threw everything they had into focusing on other things so they wouldn’t think about their losses. So they fell in together, recognizing that they both had issues and wanted to hide out (per Sam) and be messed up together (per Amelia). So they jumped fast and moved in together.
Now, I’m willing to acknowledge that there’s probably some filling in the blanks and fanwanking involved in all of this. But at the same time, as much as I don’t care for this storyline, I do think some time and care has gone into it, into the order and information in the flashbacks. I think there has been some subtle filling in of the details and clues to what made Amelia and Sam gravitate towards each other and why they were the way they were, both individually and as a couple. Again, I don’t think it’s fantastic work or a fantastic storyline for Sam (I didn’t care for its earlier reincarnation known as Dean/Lisa, either), but it’s not nothing, either. Just my opinion, and I know mileage varies.
Thanks, Emmau! I guess I would have to respectfully disagree w/you that some time and care has gone into the storyline.
It seems like Carver wanted to tell the story of two very messed up, grief-stricken individuals who found solace or peace in each other, who clung together for fear of losing it completely. If that’s the story . . . . . I think it could have been told in a much better way. The FBs could have been written better and used better.
In the way of the FBs, we, IMO, didn’t get much to help tell the story. We got Sam hitting the dog and Amelia forcing him to take it. The next FB was the picnic. Then, we have her accusing him of stalking her. They sleep together. She tells him about her husband. The next AM, she tries to get rid of him. He won’t go. They say they’ll tell each other about their loved ones. Next, Sam’s meeting Dad and Don returns. And the last FB is w/Don confronting Sam, and Sam leaving.
Subtle is fine, esp. in a very well-written show. Unfortunately, that’s not [i]Supernatural[/i]. I think things should have been much more obvious, or their meeting should have been different. Instead of saying they were messed up, I wish they would have [i]shown [/i] them being messed up. I’m sorry but panic about hitting a dog and general bitchiness doesn’t convey “messed up” to me.
But I must admit that I don’t really recall the conversation after the dog ran into the room. I think Amelia said something about Sam being a loser or something about him running away. I don’t really recall him saying much of anything at all.
I don’t know. I just think much more could have been done w/the Sam/Amelia story.
Oh, well, no, I agree that much more could have been done with the Sam/Amelia story. I’m not arguing that it’s super well done or even that enjoyable to watch. I further think that the flashbacks could have been done better than they were, and one of their biggest faults in my opinion is that they’re telling us that Sam was broken and lost instead of showing us. I think the PTB completely missed the mark by concentrating on Sam’s climb back up and his relationship with Amelia instead of showing us Sam’s grief/pain/whatnot. The flashbacks are tricky, anyway, though because it’s a hard balance between showing us too little and spelling out every single chronological point in their stroyline and risking boring/insulting the audience. I think there could have been more shown between Sam and Amelia agreeing to talk and Sam and Amelia moving in together to make us understand how this relationship became functional. At the same time, I don’t know that I need them to connect all of the dots, either. I like it when show doesn’t feel the need to spell everything out for me.
For a show that has often relied on anvils to make their points, however, a sudden attempt at subtlety is probably not going to go over well. So I completely agree that there should have been more show than tell, and I thought show set up the Amelia character from the beginning by making our first impression of her so unsympathetic. It was an uphill climb from there, and show really hasn’t managed it at this point, at least in my opinion.
That said, I’ve read various places that this storyline is the proof that Carver and the PTB hate Sam and purposefully gave him nothing as a storyline, and I disagree with that. I do think there was good intent with this storyline and I do think some care was taken in trying to write it. To borrow a work-related analogy, it’s like watching a child try their very hardest on a test and make a C-D. The results aren’t impressive, but I wouldn’t want someone to accuse that child of not trying or blowing it off when they really had done their best. I don’t think I could yet classify this storyline as a failure, as I haven’t seen it all the way to the end. It might very well be. But at the same time, I still maintain that there has been some thought and care put into this storyline, even if it wasn’t enough and the focus was a lot of the time on the wrong things.
We can agree to disagree, but I stand by my view that while this storyline hasn’t been great, it’s also not nothing and it’s not some elaborate sabotage job on Sam (not that you said that, but since I’m rambling and it’s on my mind I’m going to throw it in). Actually, this is really odd for me, because I never expected to be on the defending side of this storyline. 2013 is weird already.
Having thought about it, I really don’t want Amelia to be evil. When Benny came in there was a contingent that was very vocal that if Benny turned out to be bad, then it would just be a redo of Ruby and the show didn’t need that. For me, if Benny is a vampire who turns to the good and noble because of the wonderfulness of Dean, while Sam is taken in by an evil Amelia, that is even a worse redo of season four and I will be TICKED to no end.
This isn’t really fair to say… we haven’t even seen the episode yet! Jeez. Maybe she’s already left Don, maybe he left her…I think it’s probably best to wait and see how it plays out before burning her at the stake or making her wear a scarlet A.
Exactly. Amelia didn’t cheat on Don when she and Sam got together, because Don was DEAD and unless someone is a friend of Sam and Dean, dead usually means dead. The fact that we saw Amelia and Don sitting together, snuggling on a couch and watching TV is typical date night, get to know each other actions. They may have resumed their marriage and be sleeping with each other, or they could be taking things slow and reconnecting. There is nothing to indicate that Amelia is anything other than a confused woman trying to put her life together after her husband returned from the dead and she had developed feelings for Sam.
Agreed again. I don’t see why Amelia would suddenly become evil, nor do I see any purpose for that twist to appear in this storyline. Personally, I am against any and all retreads of previous storylines–show’s done enough of that over the years. Since Benny decided to forego human blood years before he met Dean, his ability to abstain (or not, which I’m guessing is endgame) is not a reflection on Dean. Amelia had baggage and a husband before she met Sam, so her ability to cope with either of those things or to maintain a relationship with Sam isn’t a reflection on him. That’s something I like at the moment and hope show continues with both Benny and Amelia. While they were created as support characters that each served the purpose of helping a Winchester cope in their year apart, they can function independently of Sam and Dean, which makes them more character than prop. That’s a good thing.
[quote]Since Benny decided to forego human blood years before he met Dean, his ability to abstain (or not, which I’m guessing is endgame) is not a reflection on Dean.[/quote]
To be fair, and cynical, we only have Benny’s word that he abstained the entire time he was with Andrea. And frankly, Benny promptly killed any vampire that could dispute the story. I do believe that his maker turned Andrea and that Benny didn’t drink from her or try to turn her, but as to the rest of the world, well he probably was what he claims he was, but there’s no one left to confirm or deny it.
I can concede to that, which is why I usually try to add in some form of a “based on what we know now” disclaimer. There’s always the possibility that show is going for subtlety here so they can pull a dramatic reveal later. There is, of course, the possibility as well that show is playing this straight, as ‘vampire has a change of heart based upon the love of a good woman only to be killed for his new-found stance in dramatic irony’ is appropriately soapy for the PTB. They seem to like that kind of storyline these days, so they may be genuine. If show gives us the big twist, we’ll know for sure. My point remains that Benny’s choices are, as always, his own.
I’ve always thought there was more to the story than simply Sam meets Amelia and falls in love , yadda yadda. Maybe it’s just hope, but I’d like to think the writers have something better in mind. When Dean spent his year with Lisa,there was a good bit of story and FBs to let us in on how he was dealing with it- and it was not very well. With Sam and Amelia, there just hasn’t been the same amount of reveal about their relationship, emotionally. That bothers me.
I also find the lack of chemistry between Sam and Amelia confounding. I wondered if this was intentional, to make this relationship seem more superficial than say, Sam finding the love of his life. He doesn’t seem to be very emotional in his scenes with her, and after watching him for years, you know he is a very emotional guy. His affect with Amelia always seems a little flat. Like he is going through the motions at a certain level. I also wonder if this is the way the PTB intend it to be portrayed.
I do not, not believe Carver or anyone ‘hates’ Sam. I think there is more to be revealed and part of me suspects this is a red herring. There is a reason the Amelia storyline was introduced, besides something for Sam to do for a year.
I’m probably one of the few non-Benny fans. While I like the character and loved the way it helped explain some of Dean’s feelings about Sam (feeling like he could trust Benny and not Sam)- I think that’s played out and frankly, I don’t want to see the Benny/Dean show. Maybe Dean is discovering his humanity by seeing goodness in the monsters he used to kill without thought, but trusting Benny more after 1 year in purgatory vs. his whole life with Sam having his back? I don’t get it. I hope Carver has some magic up his sleeve because I’m confused and tired of seeing Benny.
Spoiler alert! With the official synopsis for 8.11 out – Sam is involved in the hunt with Dean again, so if he picked Amelia, it sure didn’t last long! 😀
This is hardly a shock. I suppose that Sam could tell Amelia what he is doing and she takes back the ultimatum and tells him to come back once he is done closing the Gates of Hell, but I pretty much expect this to be the end of Sam and Amelia.
Lots of good discussion here; I’ve been away too long. 😛
I’m very curious to see how this one pans out. We know Sam will choose hunting (because the show must go on) – but that’s not the point. The point, and what will be interesting to see, is the process of him making that choice and the factors that get him there – especially considering the impasse he and Dean are stuck at right now and the mindset he has adopted over the past year.
Perhaps it’s loyalty to Cas, not Dean, that will be the deciding factor. After all, Cas healed Sam in S7. It’s possible that Sam could choose to continue hunting to help Cas, whom he views as a friend despite his past mistakes.
Alternatively, Sam could have some other revelation during the episode that drives his choice.
The only scenarios I can see myself being really upset with are if a) Amelia is killed off, b) turns out to be evil, or c) turns into Lisa-part-deux. Perhaps what Sam needs is a normal relationship to end in a normal way, and then he can move on.
But it’s all speculation until the episode airs and blows all my theories out of the water! 😛
Seriously – all this over Sam and his lukewarm romance that lacks any kind of chemistry? I’m on an edge about Cas, Crowley and the mytharc.
If anything bothers me, it’s that the boys have too much conflict piling up and not talking it through. And Chuck forbid they go on separate ways. It’s an even-numbered season: so far all of those ended with something evil getting free. And it’s one year till 2014… “we will always end up here”