Let’s Discuss: In Defense of Sam Winchester
There have been a lot of fans complaining about how awful Sam is, outraged that he would let Dean die (not true), that he’s turned into a mean, uncaring brother, also untrue. That he would not save Dean’s life if Dean didn’t want his life saved is very different from “letting him die.”Â
Sam has realized that, by altering the natural course of life, he and Dean have messed up a lot of world happenings. Just the fact that they have died and come back to life so often has thrown a monkey wrench into the earth’s machinery.Â
But I’m here to defend Sam Winchester, who I feel has evolved from a sweet young college student into a mature man who realizes the world does NOT revolve around him and Dean. Dean has yet to understand and accept that. But I digress.Â
Here is why Sam deserves a pass:
Sam was fed demon blood when he was six months old. He was possessed by Meg for a full week, and she did God-knows-what with him before going after the hunter she murdered (I forget his name) and then after Jo and Dean.Â
Sam got involved with Ruby and was addicted to demon blood. He was possessed by Lucifer and spent 100 YEARS trapped in a cage in hell with Lucifer and Michael, where unspeakable things happened to him.
He was freed from hell, but without his soul, and at Dean’s insistence, Death went to the cage, got it back, and put it back inside Sam, even though it looked, to quote Castiel, “Flayed.” Death also put up a wall in Sam’s mind to guard against memories flooding through and driving Sam crazy.Â
More recently, he was possessed by an angel, Gadreel, with dubious plans of his own, then by Crowley, who bit him during the trials. Cas tried to withdraw what was left of Gadreel’s grace from Sam, very painfully, to help locate the renegade angel, but it didn’t work.Â
AND YOU WONDER, AFTER ALL THIS, WHY SAM IS READY TO PEACEFULLY DIE? It’s a miracle he still has his sanity, folks!Â
Love,Â
Robin
From Alice – Robin sent this to me this morning and I had to share. Â The truth is, the character bashing (on both sides) has been kind of alarming in the last few weeks, and we were in desperate need for an appreciation thread. Â The ground rules on this one are rather strict. Â No bashing Sam, no bashing Dean. Â No bashing other posters for their opinions. Â Say in your words or discuss why you appreciate Sam Winchester. Â Any other posts not along that line will be edited. Â
Okay, Let’s Discuss!Â
I agree with Robin. I am not sure what we are allowed to say here but I’ll take a shot. I relate to Sam’s character more because he more thoughtful in that he considers all the ramifications of his actions. As Dean said he doesn’t think things all the way through. Sam does. Which is why I felt he made the decision after all the destruction he and Dean have caused he thought it was best to go peacefully. I don’t know how the dialogue at the end of the Purge got so misconstrued but I don’t know how anyone would question whether or not Sam would die for Dean. Of course he would. He just won’t put Dean through the same nightmare. That being said Sam is a hero of the story too. What hasn’t this guy been through? He just keeps going. Sam (and Dean of course in different ways) keep trying to do the right thing, the heart and good intentions are always there.
I agree with Robin. I am not sure what we are allowed to say here but I’ll take a shot. I relate to Sam’s character more because he more thoughtful in that he considers all the ramifications of his actions. As Dean said he doesn’t think things all the way through. Sam does. Which is why I felt he made the decision after all the destruction he and Dean have caused he thought it was best to go peacefully. I don’t know how the dialogue at the end of the Purge got so misconstrued but I don’t know how anyone would question whether or not Sam would die for Dean. Of course he would. He just won’t put Dean through the same nightmare. That being said Sam is a hero of the story too. What hasn’t this guy been through? He just keeps going. Sam (and Dean of course in different ways) keep trying to do the right thing, the heart and good intentions are always there.
Sam Winchester has got to be the most patient man in the universe. He didn’t start out all that patient but at this point, after all he has been through and as angry and upset as he is with Dean’s choices for him, he is still right there, side by side with his brother, patiently waiting for Dean to begin to understand his issues. He has not run away, he has his brother’s back on every hunt and he clearly loves his brother. Sam has learned from his mistakes, and I believe he is the first Winchester to truly learn how to let go. His first time truly embracing ‘letting go’ was when he let himself fall into the pit in Swan Song. Once Cas took his crazy away in S7, he had to let go of those hell memories. When he thought Dean was dead, he had to apply those lessons in letting go of Dean in S8. In S9 I believe he has let go of the ingrained family need to save each other at all costs. I do not believe he is looking to die, just that he is ready if it happens. It gets mentioned a lot on various sites that Sam doesn’t get much character development, but I believe he has grown by leaps and bounds and now is just patiently waiting for Dean to catch up.
And Alice, thanks for this awesome thread!
Sam Winchester has got to be the most patient man in the universe. He didn’t start out all that patient but at this point, after all he has been through and as angry and upset as he is with Dean’s choices for him, he is still right there, side by side with his brother, patiently waiting for Dean to begin to understand his issues. He has not run away, he has his brother’s back on every hunt and he clearly loves his brother. Sam has learned from his mistakes, and I believe he is the first Winchester to truly learn how to let go. His first time truly embracing ‘letting go’ was when he let himself fall into the pit in Swan Song. Once Cas took his crazy away in S7, he had to let go of those hell memories. When he thought Dean was dead, he had to apply those lessons in letting go of Dean in S8. In S9 I believe he has let go of the ingrained family need to save each other at all costs. I do not believe he is looking to die, just that he is ready if it happens. It gets mentioned a lot on various sites that Sam doesn’t get much character development, but I believe he has grown by leaps and bounds and now is just patiently waiting for Dean to catch up.
And Alice, thanks for this awesome thread!
Thank you Robin and Alice for this thread and this article. Sam has gone through so much, experienced so much and he is learning something from each and every experience.
He doesn’t have everything figured out but he’s got a road map to help him and hopefully Dean will join him (he pretty much has) and together they will get through any and all obsticles.in their path.
Thank you Robin and Alice for this thread and this article. Sam has gone through so much, experienced so much and he is learning something from each and every experience.
He doesn’t have everything figured out but he’s got a road map to help him and hopefully Dean will join him (he pretty much has) and together they will get through any and all obsticles.in their path.
I have always loved and appreciated Sam. I have to agree with Cheryl, Sam is thoughtful and measured in his reactions. Dean is more impulsive and tends to jump and react before he thinks. In many ways he is easier to love than Dean. But I love them almost equally even though I defend Dean at times. Sam has never done anything I haven’t understood. Sam, as portrayed by Jared, is a rich multi-layered character who can break your heart and make you laugh. I have never doubted for one minute the love and devotion he has for his brother even after the ending speech in TP. Sam is angry and it needed to be said in whatever way it came out. I think it will be further clarified as the season goes on and it doesn’t mean he wouldn’t die for or save his brother in an instant!!
He has gone through so much I can understand why he might want peace. I selfish want him to want to continue to live and find his purpose and reason to “carry on”. I want he and his brother to find a way to work together and more importantly UNDERSTAND and respect one another better. I want them both to have some peace both in this world and in the next. I want Sam to realize what an amazing person he is and I want Dean to help him do that. I want Dean to feel loved in return. I can’t imagine this show without Sam. I would not watch it if Sam wasn’t there. They are both completely different halves of a whole to me. Both amazing and wonderfully flawed people.
I have always loved and appreciated Sam. I have to agree with Cheryl, Sam is thoughtful and measured in his reactions. Dean is more impulsive and tends to jump and react before he thinks. In many ways he is easier to love than Dean. But I love them almost equally even though I defend Dean at times. Sam has never done anything I haven’t understood. Sam, as portrayed by Jared, is a rich multi-layered character who can break your heart and make you laugh. I have never doubted for one minute the love and devotion he has for his brother even after the ending speech in TP. Sam is angry and it needed to be said in whatever way it came out. I think it will be further clarified as the season goes on and it doesn’t mean he wouldn’t die for or save his brother in an instant!!
He has gone through so much I can understand why he might want peace. I selfish want him to want to continue to live and find his purpose and reason to “carry on”. I want he and his brother to find a way to work together and more importantly UNDERSTAND and respect one another better. I want them both to have some peace both in this world and in the next. I want Sam to realize what an amazing person he is and I want Dean to help him do that. I want Dean to feel loved in return. I can’t imagine this show without Sam. I would not watch it if Sam wasn’t there. They are both completely different halves of a whole to me. Both amazing and wonderfully flawed people.
Awesome thread, Alice. I think Sam is a truly amazing person who has been through so much and is still standing and trying to fight the good fight. I think the fact that he is still by Dean’s side now instead of walking away as he might have done in the past when he was this hurt, says a lot for how he has grown in the last couple of years.
What I want for Sam is for Dean to realize that his brother loves him no matter what. I want Dean to see that Sam trying to get to Dean to stop basing his own happiness on Sam’s and sacrificing everything for him is Sam showing him that he loves him and wants him to be happy for himself and not see it as Sam trying to push him away. I think that if Dean could just see those things as the expression of love that they are, then he might start trusting that Sam is more than just his responsibility and is truly his brother.
I’m sharing a link for those who would like to read a self proclaimed “Dean Girl” meta on “The Purge” and why she gets why Sam said what he did. It’s two parts, the first about Dean and the second about Sam and it’s truly the most insightful thing I’ve read about both of them.
[url]http://mizpah1931.livejournal.com/[/url]
Awesome thread, Alice. I think Sam is a truly amazing person who has been through so much and is still standing and trying to fight the good fight. I think the fact that he is still by Dean’s side now instead of walking away as he might have done in the past when he was this hurt, says a lot for how he has grown in the last couple of years.
What I want for Sam is for Dean to realize that his brother loves him no matter what. I want Dean to see that Sam trying to get to Dean to stop basing his own happiness on Sam’s and sacrificing everything for him is Sam showing him that he loves him and wants him to be happy for himself and not see it as Sam trying to push him away. I think that if Dean could just see those things as the expression of love that they are, then he might start trusting that Sam is more than just his responsibility and is truly his brother.
I’m sharing a link for those who would like to read a self proclaimed “Dean Girl” meta on “The Purge” and why she gets why Sam said what he did. It’s two parts, the first about Dean and the second about Sam and it’s truly the most insightful thing I’ve read about both of them.
[url]http://mizpah1931.livejournal.com/[/url]
#5sylvia37 WOW that should be mandatory reading for all SPN fans. Thanks for that link.
#5sylvia37 WOW that should be mandatory reading for all SPN fans. Thanks for that link.
I agree with all you’ve said. I think the issue is that when Sam and Dean had the discussion, they were speaking from a place of anger and hurt. This meant that Sam didn’t fully explain what he meant when he said what he said. He seemed to be saying it with the intent of lashing out/back at Dean, which is something we ALL do when we’re angry, which is something that Dean certainly does when he’s angry too. If they’d been less emotional or less angry, maybe they’d have been able to do a better job of fully explaining things to one another. I think the fact that they’ve had this very revealing discussion means that healing will now begin. I don’t think that either brother is completely right here, but neither is either brother completely wrong. Clearly, Dean needs to see what Sam was attempting to explain to him because all you’ve said here is true. By the same token, Sam needs to put himself in Dean’s shoes and realize Dean did what he did because it’s what Dean does – he protects and loves Sam always… above all other things. I have the fear that the Mark of Cain may have additional consequences for Dean that may mean that Sam will have to save Dean after all. And he may be faced with choices similar to the ones Dean faced to save him. I think the rest of the season, and, in particular, Season 10, will be really powerful in terms of Sam and Dean’s relationship.
I agree with all you’ve said. I think the issue is that when Sam and Dean had the discussion, they were speaking from a place of anger and hurt. This meant that Sam didn’t fully explain what he meant when he said what he said. He seemed to be saying it with the intent of lashing out/back at Dean, which is something we ALL do when we’re angry, which is something that Dean certainly does when he’s angry too. If they’d been less emotional or less angry, maybe they’d have been able to do a better job of fully explaining things to one another. I think the fact that they’ve had this very revealing discussion means that healing will now begin. I don’t think that either brother is completely right here, but neither is either brother completely wrong. Clearly, Dean needs to see what Sam was attempting to explain to him because all you’ve said here is true. By the same token, Sam needs to put himself in Dean’s shoes and realize Dean did what he did because it’s what Dean does – he protects and loves Sam always… above all other things. I have the fear that the Mark of Cain may have additional consequences for Dean that may mean that Sam will have to save Dean after all. And he may be faced with choices similar to the ones Dean faced to save him. I think the rest of the season, and, in particular, Season 10, will be really powerful in terms of Sam and Dean’s relationship.
#7 Angie Sam looked so sad when he said those things to Dean. He looked tired and spent. It gave him no pleasure. He just knew that it had to be said. The vicious cycle that they are stuck in has to stop. I really think that this scene is the catalyst to send Dean spiraling out of control. The MOC (something Dean took on not considering the consequences. After all it was The King of Hell’s plan. What could possibly go wrong) I think is going to test Sam’s words. How far will Sam go? We know he will die for Dean but will he sacrifice anything for Dean no matter the consequences? I think this story is going to carry on into next season. So Hang on to your hats. It’s going to be a bumpy ride.
#7 Angie Sam looked so sad when he said those things to Dean. He looked tired and spent. It gave him no pleasure. He just knew that it had to be said. The vicious cycle that they are stuck in has to stop. I really think that this scene is the catalyst to send Dean spiraling out of control. The MOC (something Dean took on not considering the consequences. After all it was The King of Hell’s plan. What could possibly go wrong) I think is going to test Sam’s words. How far will Sam go? We know he will die for Dean but will he sacrifice anything for Dean no matter the consequences? I think this story is going to carry on into next season. So Hang on to your hats. It’s going to be a bumpy ride.
I don’t honestly think that Sam needs defending. He is the victim here.
I don’t get why so many fans think it’s okay to blame the victim for the things that others do to them.
I don’t honestly think that Sam needs defending. He is the victim here.
I don’t get why so many fans think it’s okay to blame the victim for the things that others do to them.
I want to make it clear that I love both Sam and Dean and consider both brothers heroes and incredibly amazing men. I believe they love each other without reservation and would do anything to save the other. I have watched the series from the first episode and am totally committed to following it to the end, no matter what! Love, Robin
I want to make it clear that I love both Sam and Dean and consider both brothers heroes and incredibly amazing men. I believe they love each other without reservation and would do anything to save the other. I have watched the series from the first episode and am totally committed to following it to the end, no matter what! Love, Robin
It makes me sad that even after what has happened to Sam this season still we are here having to defend himâŚ
What I love about Sam is his moral code. What breaks my heart for him is that no matter how carefully he considers or how right his decisions look, and ought to be, they always blow up in his face. What makes me root for him is that he goes ahead and follows his personal compass anyway.
I love the fact that even though those people who are closest to him and who should be looking out for him have all in their ways had a part in bringing him to the shell that he is reduced to he has never thrown it back at any of them. Of his family (and Cas) only Dean has done things with at least some consideration of Sam – he brought him back at Cold Oak when he should have left well enough alone – but at least there Dean felt that Sam was better off alive than dead (because that is how Dean would feel in the same situation). Sam’s mother and the demon deal, his father deciding to put him down if he became a monster and Cas manipulating Sam to start the Apocalypse and then breaking his wall to distract Dean, none of them considered Sam as a person in their decisions.
He has thought through and understood their motives (and his father’s, in particular, hurt him) even as he is the one reaping the whirlwind of what they have done.
Sam, too, had a horrible, neglected childhood. He has looked up to his brother since he was 4 to try to be just like him, he admires so much about Dean and has told him so, and yet he has a strength of character, outside of learning from Dean, that is all Sam. All blame that Sam should shoulder (and a good deal that he shouldnât have to) he has kept, any forgiveness he has been asked for has been freely given and Sam doesnât talk about it.
Even now look at those two sentences he said in the last couple of episodes. Said as much in sorrow as in anger and both interpretable as trying to help his unapologetic, natural-order-breaking, guilt-ridden brother (who I also love, but he has Charlie and Cas and Garth and the gratitude of a grateful world (and the show’s writers), he doesnât need me đ ) as much as himself, have seen him pilloried, with people wanting to see him have to eat his words⌠well it isnât much of a meal so far if you ask me. He has said he wouldn’t leave his brother out there alone, and he wouldn’t and he hasn’t.
Sam takes on the guilt of those around him, if he is to be singled out as being the sole perpetrator of something bad, well, he sees it as he has broad shoulders, why not? He accepts condemnation from those who know him best, and should know better, because he knows that some of it is their own pain being released.
He believes that nothing and no one is a monster until it proves itself so, and he tries to temper his instinct with observation and deduction, waiting for evidence before he makes a decision â and yet when the decision is made, doing what needs to be done. Since the first season Sam has tried to deal with each set of monsters as they come and he has never seemed to relish success against them, he has hurt at many of the deaths and sympathized with the creature.
Sam believes in duty â to what is right, to family and to himself (in that order, though at one point family was first, and that led him to his greatest fall,). And even though it never works out for him, the world he lives in despises him, his future is grim and his past is horrific, his soul is flayed, and when he dies he may be going back to hell, yet he is still someone who sticks to what he believes to be right.
Now he sees the need to save his brother from himself and the destructive spiral he is in. This too will blow up in Sam’s face, but it won’t break him because I suspect he is already broken … I hope (but I have little faith) that the show is also going to deal with how broken, alone and unsupported Sam really is and has been for a long time.
How could you not love him?
PS: also he is intelligent, cute, and has great hair.
It makes me sad that even after what has happened to Sam this season still we are here having to defend himâŚ
What I love about Sam is his moral code. What breaks my heart for him is that no matter how carefully he considers or how right his decisions look, and ought to be, they always blow up in his face. What makes me root for him is that he goes ahead and follows his personal compass anyway.
I love the fact that even though those people who are closest to him and who should be looking out for him have all in their ways had a part in bringing him to the shell that he is reduced to he has never thrown it back at any of them. Of his family (and Cas) only Dean has done things with at least some consideration of Sam – he brought him back at Cold Oak when he should have left well enough alone – but at least there Dean felt that Sam was better off alive than dead (because that is how Dean would feel in the same situation). Sam’s mother and the demon deal, his father deciding to put him down if he became a monster and Cas manipulating Sam to start the Apocalypse and then breaking his wall to distract Dean, none of them considered Sam as a person in their decisions.
He has thought through and understood their motives (and his father’s, in particular, hurt him) even as he is the one reaping the whirlwind of what they have done.
Sam, too, had a horrible, neglected childhood. He has looked up to his brother since he was 4 to try to be just like him, he admires so much about Dean and has told him so, and yet he has a strength of character, outside of learning from Dean, that is all Sam. All blame that Sam should shoulder (and a good deal that he shouldnât have to) he has kept, any forgiveness he has been asked for has been freely given and Sam doesnât talk about it.
Even now look at those two sentences he said in the last couple of episodes. Said as much in sorrow as in anger and both interpretable as trying to help his unapologetic, natural-order-breaking, guilt-ridden brother (who I also love, but he has Charlie and Cas and Garth and the gratitude of a grateful world (and the show’s writers), he doesnât need me đ ) as much as himself, have seen him pilloried, with people wanting to see him have to eat his words⌠well it isnât much of a meal so far if you ask me. He has said he wouldn’t leave his brother out there alone, and he wouldn’t and he hasn’t.
Sam takes on the guilt of those around him, if he is to be singled out as being the sole perpetrator of something bad, well, he sees it as he has broad shoulders, why not? He accepts condemnation from those who know him best, and should know better, because he knows that some of it is their own pain being released.
He believes that nothing and no one is a monster until it proves itself so, and he tries to temper his instinct with observation and deduction, waiting for evidence before he makes a decision â and yet when the decision is made, doing what needs to be done. Since the first season Sam has tried to deal with each set of monsters as they come and he has never seemed to relish success against them, he has hurt at many of the deaths and sympathized with the creature.
Sam believes in duty â to what is right, to family and to himself (in that order, though at one point family was first, and that led him to his greatest fall,). And even though it never works out for him, the world he lives in despises him, his future is grim and his past is horrific, his soul is flayed, and when he dies he may be going back to hell, yet he is still someone who sticks to what he believes to be right.
Now he sees the need to save his brother from himself and the destructive spiral he is in. This too will blow up in Sam’s face, but it won’t break him because I suspect he is already broken … I hope (but I have little faith) that the show is also going to deal with how broken, alone and unsupported Sam really is and has been for a long time.
How could you not love him?
PS: also he is intelligent, cute, and has great hair.
Thanks for writing this article. It’s great after all the Sam bashing. đ
I love Sam. I may be the only fan happy about Sam stirring the brother pot. IMO it’s way past due and necessary to fix what’s broken. Carver has said they’re moving towards a more mature relationship. One of the writers tweeted they had to ‘break it down to rebuild’. Here’s hoping they’ll replace this lop-sided relationship with a more equal partnership.
I believe at the heart of this disagreement is the tricked possession. Because Sam has been possessed now three times (four if you count Crowley) he has a strong aversion to possession. (Who can blame him?) In the dream Gadreel told Sam he might die if he cast him out, and Sam with no hesitation told him to get the hell out. So when Sam says under the same circumstances he would NOT do the same thing, he’s saying he would not save Dean by tricking him into possession.
Death tried to teach Dean a lesson about disrupting the natural order. You might say Kevin is dead because Sam is alive. Now both Winchesters feel guilty about it.
Sam & Cas have both grown and changed as a result of mistakes made when their good intentions went sideways. I believe this season is Dean’s turn to learn some lessons and grow.
Thanks for writing this article. It’s great after all the Sam bashing. đ
I love Sam. I may be the only fan happy about Sam stirring the brother pot. IMO it’s way past due and necessary to fix what’s broken. Carver has said they’re moving towards a more mature relationship. One of the writers tweeted they had to ‘break it down to rebuild’. Here’s hoping they’ll replace this lop-sided relationship with a more equal partnership.
I believe at the heart of this disagreement is the tricked possession. Because Sam has been possessed now three times (four if you count Crowley) he has a strong aversion to possession. (Who can blame him?) In the dream Gadreel told Sam he might die if he cast him out, and Sam with no hesitation told him to get the hell out. So when Sam says under the same circumstances he would NOT do the same thing, he’s saying he would not save Dean by tricking him into possession.
Death tried to teach Dean a lesson about disrupting the natural order. You might say Kevin is dead because Sam is alive. Now both Winchesters feel guilty about it.
Sam & Cas have both grown and changed as a result of mistakes made when their good intentions went sideways. I believe this season is Dean’s turn to learn some lessons and grow.
eilf: You said everything I was thinking and trying to write down but in a much more in depth and eloquent way! Thank You! đ
eilf: You said everything I was thinking and trying to write down but in a much more in depth and eloquent way! Thank You! đ
I am not into bashing either brother. I love both Sam and Dean equally for the very different people they are. Yes, Sam, got the sh***y end of the stick from the start by being force-fed demon blood and being Lucifer’s chosen vessel. Dean’s end of the stick wasn’t exactly clean either. Hand a five year old a baby to raise, after seeing his mother burning up on the ceiling and then bail on him to go off monster hunting with the sum total guidance of “look out for your brother”. It’s no wonder Dean has a save Sam at any cost focus going. On the other hand, we have known from the start that Sam has always had mixed feelings about “the family business”. So why is anyone surprised when, after throwing all his heart, soul, and strength into finally closing the gates of Hell and having that aborted,.that Sam is finally ready to call it quits and take a rest. And why is anyone surprised that Dean would do what he has always done and try to protect and save his baby brother. What I think needs to happen now (or at least I hope will happen) is that their relationship will now evolve into a relationship of equals. Sooner or later we need to drop the baggage of our youth and move on. Sam and Dean need to realise that the synergy they have makes them far stronger and wiser as a unit than either of them alone. Have I mentioned lately how much I love this show?
I am not into bashing either brother. I love both Sam and Dean equally for the very different people they are. Yes, Sam, got the sh***y end of the stick from the start by being force-fed demon blood and being Lucifer’s chosen vessel. Dean’s end of the stick wasn’t exactly clean either. Hand a five year old a baby to raise, after seeing his mother burning up on the ceiling and then bail on him to go off monster hunting with the sum total guidance of “look out for your brother”. It’s no wonder Dean has a save Sam at any cost focus going. On the other hand, we have known from the start that Sam has always had mixed feelings about “the family business”. So why is anyone surprised when, after throwing all his heart, soul, and strength into finally closing the gates of Hell and having that aborted,.that Sam is finally ready to call it quits and take a rest. And why is anyone surprised that Dean would do what he has always done and try to protect and save his baby brother. What I think needs to happen now (or at least I hope will happen) is that their relationship will now evolve into a relationship of equals. Sooner or later we need to drop the baggage of our youth and move on. Sam and Dean need to realise that the synergy they have makes them far stronger and wiser as a unit than either of them alone. Have I mentioned lately how much I love this show?
[quote] I love Sam. I may be the only fan happy about Sam stirring the brother pot. IMO it’s way past due and necessary to fix what’s broken. Carver has said they’re moving towards a more mature relationship. One of the writers tweeted they had to ‘break it down to rebuild’. Here’s hoping they’ll replace this lop-sided relationship with a more equal partnership.[/quote]
I’m happy they are exploring it as well. I know many fans believed the issues were resolved in season five. Even Kripke pretty much said that was the intention. I never really bought that. Dean does not believe in Sam in ANY way until Point of No Return and he only does it then because Sam expresses belief in Dean doing the right thing and saying no to Michael. To me that wasn’t Dean learning to trust Sam that was Dean going back to as long as Sam doesn’t question me and thinks I’m always right then we’re good. In Two Minutes to Midnight, Bobby has to TELL Dean that Sam isn’t a total screw up and maybe, just maybe they’ve been to hard on him, and that is only after Bobby watches Sam get people out of the plant making Pestilence’s vaccine.
Yes, Dean let go in Swan Song, but that was a one time, we have no other choice moment. People can and do change their behavior all the time for short periods of time. Alcoholics stop drinking, abusers stop beating their wife and kids, gamblers stop gambling, drug users go into rehab and stop using. The proof isn’t in stopping for a short period of time, the proof is in living the change for the rest of their lives. IRL, some do, others relapse and then change again and others just relapse. So Dean being able to let go once is not a sign that his basic view of Sam changed.
Dean’s basic view of Sam has been that Sam can’t make his own decisions and must be protected, even though Sam doesn’t want that. Perhaps Dean could have let Sam go but circumstances were such that Dean returned to his former way of treating Sam. Soulless!Sam behaved in ways that needed to be curbed, so he instituted the What Would Dean Do training. Then when Sam’s soul was returned Dean instituted the you must not look at what you did before rule. When Cas broke Sam’s wall, Sam was having hallucinations so Dean had to define reality for Sam. All of these were a return to Dean controlling Sam’s life. It may have been for good reasons, but the upshot is that even if Dean could have continued to trust Sam and treat him as an equal, the reality was, Sam yet again became something Dean felt he had to manage which set back the entire learn to trust Sam changes of season five. Then when Dean from Purgatory he finds Sam choosing to make a life for himself which Dean saw as abandoning him and abandoning the family business, both of which he found unacceptable and unforgivable. This leaves Dean with the belief that yet again, he has to make the decisions for Sam because Sam has made the “wrong” ones. Dean needed a support group to help him continue to treat Sam as a capable adult who has the right to his own choices, what Dean got was a Sam broken in ways that left Dean feeling he couldn’t trust Sam. And when Sam believed Dean was dead, he did finally take charge of his life and do what was healthy for SAM, well Sam made choices that Dean hated and “proved” to Dean that Sam was not capable of being trusted or treated like an adult. The all this led to Dean deciding that it was fine to take total control of his own body away from Sam to suit Dean’s need to keep Sam breathing.
So, yes, I think that this is actually necessary to make the relationship better and stronger. Dean has to acknowledge that Sam is a person who is capable and valuable and who has the right to have complete control over his own body. Who has the right to consent to or not consent to medical treatments. Who has the right to make decisions based on all the known facts, not lies that Dean tells him to get him to make the “right” decision. Sam needs to step up and demand these rights. He needs to get over feeling like the failure who let Lucifer out. Sam corrected that and paid a huge penance for his mistakes in season four.
IMHO, the relationship is still broken and Dean’s willingness to go against what he knew Sam would want is simply proof that it is broken. My concern is not that this is being addressed, but how they will resolve the issue. I do think that it is not out of the blue that this has come to a head. I do think this is actually a natural progression of how Sam and Dean have interacted for a long time.
[quote] I love Sam. I may be the only fan happy about Sam stirring the brother pot. IMO it’s way past due and necessary to fix what’s broken. Carver has said they’re moving towards a more mature relationship. One of the writers tweeted they had to ‘break it down to rebuild’. Here’s hoping they’ll replace this lop-sided relationship with a more equal partnership.[/quote]
I’m happy they are exploring it as well. I know many fans believed the issues were resolved in season five. Even Kripke pretty much said that was the intention. I never really bought that. Dean does not believe in Sam in ANY way until Point of No Return and he only does it then because Sam expresses belief in Dean doing the right thing and saying no to Michael. To me that wasn’t Dean learning to trust Sam that was Dean going back to as long as Sam doesn’t question me and thinks I’m always right then we’re good. In Two Minutes to Midnight, Bobby has to TELL Dean that Sam isn’t a total screw up and maybe, just maybe they’ve been to hard on him, and that is only after Bobby watches Sam get people out of the plant making Pestilence’s vaccine.
Yes, Dean let go in Swan Song, but that was a one time, we have no other choice moment. People can and do change their behavior all the time for short periods of time. Alcoholics stop drinking, abusers stop beating their wife and kids, gamblers stop gambling, drug users go into rehab and stop using. The proof isn’t in stopping for a short period of time, the proof is in living the change for the rest of their lives. IRL, some do, others relapse and then change again and others just relapse. So Dean being able to let go once is not a sign that his basic view of Sam changed.
Dean’s basic view of Sam has been that Sam can’t make his own decisions and must be protected, even though Sam doesn’t want that. Perhaps Dean could have let Sam go but circumstances were such that Dean returned to his former way of treating Sam. Soulless!Sam behaved in ways that needed to be curbed, so he instituted the What Would Dean Do training. Then when Sam’s soul was returned Dean instituted the you must not look at what you did before rule. When Cas broke Sam’s wall, Sam was having hallucinations so Dean had to define reality for Sam. All of these were a return to Dean controlling Sam’s life. It may have been for good reasons, but the upshot is that even if Dean could have continued to trust Sam and treat him as an equal, the reality was, Sam yet again became something Dean felt he had to manage which set back the entire learn to trust Sam changes of season five. Then when Dean from Purgatory he finds Sam choosing to make a life for himself which Dean saw as abandoning him and abandoning the family business, both of which he found unacceptable and unforgivable. This leaves Dean with the belief that yet again, he has to make the decisions for Sam because Sam has made the “wrong” ones. Dean needed a support group to help him continue to treat Sam as a capable adult who has the right to his own choices, what Dean got was a Sam broken in ways that left Dean feeling he couldn’t trust Sam. And when Sam believed Dean was dead, he did finally take charge of his life and do what was healthy for SAM, well Sam made choices that Dean hated and “proved” to Dean that Sam was not capable of being trusted or treated like an adult. The all this led to Dean deciding that it was fine to take total control of his own body away from Sam to suit Dean’s need to keep Sam breathing.
So, yes, I think that this is actually necessary to make the relationship better and stronger. Dean has to acknowledge that Sam is a person who is capable and valuable and who has the right to have complete control over his own body. Who has the right to consent to or not consent to medical treatments. Who has the right to make decisions based on all the known facts, not lies that Dean tells him to get him to make the “right” decision. Sam needs to step up and demand these rights. He needs to get over feeling like the failure who let Lucifer out. Sam corrected that and paid a huge penance for his mistakes in season four.
IMHO, the relationship is still broken and Dean’s willingness to go against what he knew Sam would want is simply proof that it is broken. My concern is not that this is being addressed, but how they will resolve the issue. I do think that it is not out of the blue that this has come to a head. I do think this is actually a natural progression of how Sam and Dean have interacted for a long time.
Thank you for this article but it upsets me that it is necessary. Sam’s worst crime this season has been saying things that desperately needed to be said without sufficient clarification. I don’t imagine anyone currently criticising Sam has been 100% clear when they’ve talked to a loved one who has hurt and betrayed them.
Thank you for this article but it upsets me that it is necessary. Sam’s worst crime this season has been saying things that desperately needed to be said without sufficient clarification. I don’t imagine anyone currently criticising Sam has been 100% clear when they’ve talked to a loved one who has hurt and betrayed them.
[quote name=”josieposie”]eilf: You said everything I was thinking and trying to write down but in a much more in depth and eloquent way! Thank You! :D[/quote]
Hi Josieposie thank you that is very nice of you *blush*.
I am very much afraid that the show, having, it appears, sold Sam down the river is about to push him over a waterfall and destroy his character for good. Not because he is wrong but because there is little sympathy among reviewers and fans for him and because co-dependency hugs trumps everything.
Therefore I feel the need to plant my flag for the character I described BEFORE anyone can argue ‘well NOW Sam has hurt Dean’s feelings – he is irredeemable’ (oh wait that has already happened, never mind ….)
If that is what is going to happen and the show becomes any more anti-Sam (or just ignoring Sam) fanfic I shall have to just let it go and stick with the show I loved up to the end of Season 7. đ
For me, and for the vast majority of the show’s screentime, the Sam I described has been Sam and I am sticking with him 8)
*gets down from soapbox*
ETA: by ‘reviewers’ I mean on other sites, outside of WFB I think I only came across one review that didn’t basically sum up as ‘oh Sam how could you?’ but instead pointed out what Sam said didn’t come from a vacuum, but from everything that had happened this season (of course there are several ‘oh Sam how could you?’ posts on here too, but opinions are opinions. ) And the number of people who absolutely refuse to acknowledge what Sam ACTUALLY said just blows my mind …
[quote]eilf: You said everything I was thinking and trying to write down but in a much more in depth and eloquent way! Thank You! :D[/quote]
Hi Josieposie thank you that is very nice of you *blush*.
I am very much afraid that the show, having, it appears, sold Sam down the river is about to push him over a waterfall and destroy his character for good. Not because he is wrong but because there is little sympathy among reviewers and fans for him and because co-dependency hugs trumps everything.
Therefore I feel the need to plant my flag for the character I described BEFORE anyone can argue ‘well NOW Sam has hurt Dean’s feelings – he is irredeemable’ (oh wait that has already happened, never mind ….)
If that is what is going to happen and the show becomes any more anti-Sam (or just ignoring Sam) fanfic I shall have to just let it go and stick with the show I loved up to the end of Season 7. đ
For me, and for the vast majority of the show’s screentime, the Sam I described has been Sam and I am sticking with him 8)
*gets down from soapbox*
ETA: by ‘reviewers’ I mean on other sites, outside of WFB I think I only came across one review that didn’t basically sum up as ‘oh Sam how could you?’ but instead pointed out what Sam said didn’t come from a vacuum, but from everything that had happened this season (of course there are several ‘oh Sam how could you?’ posts on here too, but opinions are opinions. ) And the number of people who absolutely refuse to acknowledge what Sam ACTUALLY said just blows my mind …
Count me in the column of fans that think that Sam’s actions DON’T need to be defended. In fact, I was more shocked by the fact that Dean said he’d do it all over again, in effect trading Kevin’s life for Sam’s. I know that’s a pretty harsh way of putting it, but there’s a direct correlation between Sam being saved and Kevin being dead, I also realize a lot of fans have said that Metatron would have found a way to kill Kevin and he’d be dead any way. Possibly – yes, Probably – we just don’t know for sure.
If you remember back to 9.01, before Ezekiel and the other angel interceded and fought in the parking garage, Dean was on his way to the Impala to MAKE A DEMON DEAL WITH CROWLEY for Sam’s life. And we all remember how well that worked out the last time he did this. Talk about not learning from your past mistakes.
I am sympathetic to Dean’s position, given the role he was given at the age of 4, but he clearly isn’t going to change unless Sam forces the issue.
Count me in the column of fans that think that Sam’s actions DON’T need to be defended. In fact, I was more shocked by the fact that Dean said he’d do it all over again, in effect trading Kevin’s life for Sam’s. I know that’s a pretty harsh way of putting it, but there’s a direct correlation between Sam being saved and Kevin being dead, I also realize a lot of fans have said that Metatron would have found a way to kill Kevin and he’d be dead any way. Possibly – yes, Probably – we just don’t know for sure.
If you remember back to 9.01, before Ezekiel and the other angel interceded and fought in the parking garage, Dean was on his way to the Impala to MAKE A DEMON DEAL WITH CROWLEY for Sam’s life. And we all remember how well that worked out the last time he did this. Talk about not learning from your past mistakes.
I am sympathetic to Dean’s position, given the role he was given at the age of 4, but he clearly isn’t going to change unless Sam forces the issue.
Even if Metatron had found a way to kill Kevin it wouldn’t have been by Sam’s hand. I also don’t get how Dean’s statement that he would do it again has gotten such a pass in the fandom. I love both brothers but I find that I am defending Sam so much it looks like I have no sympathy for Dean. Which isn’t true but I really don’t think there is ever going to be a situation where Sam can stand up for himself, say some harsh truths and not back down where he isn’t going to be crucified for it. The fandom is going to blame him for it no matter how justified. I wonder if the writers are just as dismayed. Obviously hardly anyone on this website is being unfair to Sam (or Dean) which is why I try not to venture elsewhere.
Even if Metatron had found a way to kill Kevin it wouldn’t have been by Sam’s hand. I also don’t get how Dean’s statement that he would do it again has gotten such a pass in the fandom. I love both brothers but I find that I am defending Sam so much it looks like I have no sympathy for Dean. Which isn’t true but I really don’t think there is ever going to be a situation where Sam can stand up for himself, say some harsh truths and not back down where he isn’t going to be crucified for it. The fandom is going to blame him for it no matter how justified. I wonder if the writers are just as dismayed. Obviously hardly anyone on this website is being unfair to Sam (or Dean) which is why I try not to venture elsewhere.
[b]eilf[/b] I totally agree with your post. You put it wonderfully.
I am among the people who were gobsmacked by the idea that Sam needed defending in any way. To me Sam has been the victim here. The fact that he expressed his anger in ways that hurt Dean’s feelings seems like a human reaction, not one that needs any kind of defense. The idea that Sam wasn’t measured enough in his response, that he was angry about things people don’t think he should be angry about blows my mind, especially in light of Dean’s blaming Sam twice for being soulless last season.
I do agree that my one concern is that in order to repair the brotherly bond, the writers will simply make Sam understand Dean and apologize, instead of having Dean face some home truths that his actions have devastated Sam and that Dean needs to change for the relationship to become anywhere near healthy.
[b]eilf[/b] I totally agree with your post. You put it wonderfully.
I am among the people who were gobsmacked by the idea that Sam needed defending in any way. To me Sam has been the victim here. The fact that he expressed his anger in ways that hurt Dean’s feelings seems like a human reaction, not one that needs any kind of defense. The idea that Sam wasn’t measured enough in his response, that he was angry about things people don’t think he should be angry about blows my mind, especially in light of Dean’s blaming Sam twice for being soulless last season.
I do agree that my one concern is that in order to repair the brotherly bond, the writers will simply make Sam understand Dean and apologize, instead of having Dean face some home truths that his actions have devastated Sam and that Dean needs to change for the relationship to become anywhere near healthy.
I think Robin wrote a very nice article attempting to clarify Sam’s position because the show is doing a piss poor job of it at this time. I hope this will be rectified as the season progresses but now Robin must be feeling somewhat defensive for defending Sam. Whether we think it was necessary to defend Sam or not, it was meant as a good thing. đ
I think Robin wrote a very nice article attempting to clarify Sam’s position because the show is doing a piss poor job of it at this time. I hope this will be rectified as the season progresses but now Robin must be feeling somewhat defensive for defending Sam. Whether we think it was necessary to defend Sam or not, it was meant as a good thing. đ
I do not think anybody is having a go at[b] Robin[/b] for what she said .
I cannot deny that the idea Sam has needed defending has had me looking at the fandom and left wondering.
I do not think anybody is having a go at[b] Robin[/b] for what she said .
I cannot deny that the idea Sam has needed defending has had me looking at the fandom and left wondering.
[quote name=”Sharon”]I do not think anybody is having a go at[b] Robin[/b] for what she said .
I cannot deny that the idea Sam has needed defending has had me looking at the fandom and left wondering.[/quote]
Sharon – agreed… do you think this has to do with the fact that the show has always been told primarily from Dean’s POV, or is Dean the character that evokes the most sympathy from fandom?
[quote]I do not think anybody is having a go at[b] Robin[/b] for what she said .
I cannot deny that the idea Sam has needed defending has had me looking at the fandom and left wondering.[/quote]
Sharon – agreed… do you think this has to do with the fact that the show has always been told primarily from Dean’s POV, or is Dean the character that evokes the most sympathy from fandom?
[quote name=”njspnfan”][quote name=”Sharon”]I do not think anybody is having a go at[b] Robin[/b] for what she said .
I cannot deny that the idea Sam has needed defending has had me looking at the fandom and left wondering.[/quote]
Sharon – agreed… do you think this has to do with the fact that the show has always been told primarily from Dean’s POV, or is Dean the character that evokes the most sympathy from fandom?[/quote]
For me I think it is both ,one leads to the other ,
[quote][quote]I do not think anybody is having a go at[b] Robin[/b] for what she said .
I cannot deny that the idea Sam has needed defending has had me looking at the fandom and left wondering.[/quote]
Sharon – agreed… do you think this has to do with the fact that the show has always been told primarily from Dean’s POV, or is Dean the character that evokes the most sympathy from fandom?[/quote]
For me I think it is both ,one leads to the other ,
[quote name=”cheryl42″]Even if Metatron had found a way to kill Kevin it wouldn’t have been by Sam’s hand. I also don’t get how Dean’s statement that he would do it again has gotten such a pass in the fandom. I love both brothers but I find that I am defending Sam so much it looks like I have no sympathy for Dean. Which isn’t true but I really don’t think there is ever going to be a situation where Sam can stand up for himself, say some harsh truths and not back down where he isn’t going to be crucified for it. The fandom is going to blame him for it no matter how justified. I wonder if the writers are just as dismayed. Obviously hardly anyone on this website is being unfair to Sam (or Dean) which is why I try not to venture elsewhere.[/quote]
I don’t know if the writers are dismayed, Cheryl, but they seem to have put the end of the co-dependency that the fandom loves squarely on Sam’s shoulders, but without giving him the emotional POV necessary to keep him sympathetic. What else did they expect? We ABSOLUTELY needed a Sam-centric episode after he found out about Gadreel, so we could see how much Dean’s actions had hurt him, and I don’t mean the few minutes with Cas, which were more about Cas anyways. We heard Sam’s anger the last 2 episodes without feeling his pain before. Conversely, the emotional POV has remained on Dean after 9.01, so no wonder the sympathy is going his way, even when he’s wrong.
I also loved your post eilf.
[quote]Even if Metatron had found a way to kill Kevin it wouldn’t have been by Sam’s hand. I also don’t get how Dean’s statement that he would do it again has gotten such a pass in the fandom. I love both brothers but I find that I am defending Sam so much it looks like I have no sympathy for Dean. Which isn’t true but I really don’t think there is ever going to be a situation where Sam can stand up for himself, say some harsh truths and not back down where he isn’t going to be crucified for it. The fandom is going to blame him for it no matter how justified. I wonder if the writers are just as dismayed. Obviously hardly anyone on this website is being unfair to Sam (or Dean) which is why I try not to venture elsewhere.[/quote]
I don’t know if the writers are dismayed, Cheryl, but they seem to have put the end of the co-dependency that the fandom loves squarely on Sam’s shoulders, but without giving him the emotional POV necessary to keep him sympathetic. What else did they expect? We ABSOLUTELY needed a Sam-centric episode after he found out about Gadreel, so we could see how much Dean’s actions had hurt him, and I don’t mean the few minutes with Cas, which were more about Cas anyways. We heard Sam’s anger the last 2 episodes without feeling his pain before. Conversely, the emotional POV has remained on Dean after 9.01, so no wonder the sympathy is going his way, even when he’s wrong.
I also loved your post eilf.
I am one who doesn’t think Sam needs defending either, but the show is letting the character down in that regard and Robin and others who defend Sam are trying to show his POV because right now it is apparently not getting across to some fans.
I am one who doesn’t think Sam needs defending either, but the show is letting the character down in that regard and Robin and others who defend Sam are trying to show his POV because right now it is apparently not getting across to some fans.
Julia I agree that we needed a Sam-centric episode. But we needed one in S8 as well and we didn’t get one. I don’t know if there is anyway to redeem Sam to some in the fandom because they refuse to listen to the dialogue. Even many reviewers are jumping on Sam and completely ignoring everything that Dean said in that conversation. I think the writing was there it was just ignored. I have great sympathy for Dean. He took a gamble and Sam and Kevin paid the price. I was surprised by his statement that he would do it again got such a pass as to hardly even get a mention though. It was the catalyst for Sam expressing himself in the first place. Whenever these two are on screen together having “a talk” I personally pay attention because some important sh*t is going to go down. I know there is a bias in the fandom (not here) but jeez really was I the only one who heard that?
Julia I agree that we needed a Sam-centric episode. But we needed one in S8 as well and we didn’t get one. I don’t know if there is anyway to redeem Sam to some in the fandom because they refuse to listen to the dialogue. Even many reviewers are jumping on Sam and completely ignoring everything that Dean said in that conversation. I think the writing was there it was just ignored. I have great sympathy for Dean. He took a gamble and Sam and Kevin paid the price. I was surprised by his statement that he would do it again got such a pass as to hardly even get a mention though. It was the catalyst for Sam expressing himself in the first place. Whenever these two are on screen together having “a talk” I personally pay attention because some important sh*t is going to go down. I know there is a bias in the fandom (not here) but jeez really was I the only one who heard that?
I’m not upset with Sam for saying he wouldn’t save Dean if the circumstances were the same. That was perfectly understandable.
I’m not upset with Sam for being angry about Gadreel (even though I would have done the same as Dean did to save my brother). Just can’t see why Sam wants to die so bad after last season when he wanted to show Dean why he should want to live. He wanted the Trials because for him, he wished to survive them. Dean was ready to die for them. Why the change?
What I am upset at Sam about is the rest of his reasons he threw at Dean and the accusation that Dean only sacrifices if it doesn’t affect Dean. Really?
That Dean is always doing the wrong thing. That Dean is so selfish because he doesn’t want to be alone. All this he threw at Dean. So cold. So unloving. So devastating to his brother who has been father and mother and brother and loves him more than anything else in the world. Dean has been ready to let Sam go his own way. He let him go in “Scarecrow” and told him he admired him for it. He let him go in “Good God Y’all” when Sam decided to leave him. He let him sacrifice himself in “Swan Song”. He let him go when Sam had to decide between Amelia and Dean. Sam came back. Dean doesn’t want to be alone (who would?) but he would rather be hurt and alone than keep Sam from what he really wants. That’s the way it has been written.
All I want is for the brothers to love each other. I have always known that Dean does, but have had my doubts about Sammy from time to time since season 4. There were no doubts before that.
I will be upset with Sam until he shows me that Dean means something to him and that he still loves and values his big brother. The writers have some work to do! I agree with Jared. “Sam can be a real jerk sometimes!”
I’m not upset with Sam for saying he wouldn’t save Dean if the circumstances were the same. That was perfectly understandable.
I’m not upset with Sam for being angry about Gadreel (even though I would have done the same as Dean did to save my brother). Just can’t see why Sam wants to die so bad after last season when he wanted to show Dean why he should want to live. He wanted the Trials because for him, he wished to survive them. Dean was ready to die for them. Why the change?
What I am upset at Sam about is the rest of his reasons he threw at Dean and the accusation that Dean only sacrifices if it doesn’t affect Dean. Really?
That Dean is always doing the wrong thing. That Dean is so selfish because he doesn’t want to be alone. All this he threw at Dean. So cold. So unloving. So devastating to his brother who has been father and mother and brother and loves him more than anything else in the world. Dean has been ready to let Sam go his own way. He let him go in “Scarecrow” and told him he admired him for it. He let him go in “Good God Y’all” when Sam decided to leave him. He let him sacrifice himself in “Swan Song”. He let him go when Sam had to decide between Amelia and Dean. Sam came back. Dean doesn’t want to be alone (who would?) but he would rather be hurt and alone than keep Sam from what he really wants. That’s the way it has been written.
All I want is for the brothers to love each other. I have always known that Dean does, but have had my doubts about Sammy from time to time since season 4. There were no doubts before that.
I will be upset with Sam until he shows me that Dean means something to him and that he still loves and values his big brother. The writers have some work to do! I agree with Jared. “Sam can be a real jerk sometimes!”
[quote name=”leah d”]I think Robin wrote a very nice article attempting to clarify Sam’s position because the show is doing a piss poor job of it at this time. I hope this will be rectified as the season progresses but now Robin must be feeling somewhat defensive for defending Sam. Whether we think it was necessary to defend Sam or not, it was meant as a good thing. :-)[/quote]
Thanks for pointing this out Leah, it hadn’t occurred to me it might seem like that.
Robin for some reason that escapes all understanding we DO need an ‘In defense of Sam’ post and I think you did a lovely job of it. Personally I didn’t intend to criticize you for that at all! It was great to see a ‘hey, hold on just a minute commentary’.
Bevie I do think that if the roles the characters had played so far this season were reversed we would still be here needing an ‘In defense of Sam’ post.
Because the fandom would be out for his blood over having Dean possessed and then tortured when we all know what a horror Dean has of being possessed or being a ‘freak’. Especially if Sam said he did the right thing and he would do it again and made no attempt to show Dean he understood how Dean would feel about it or to apologize.
And it would be really hard to come up with defenses of Sam if all they amounted to was ‘well Dean hurt Sam’s feelings by telling him a few home truths and saying he didn’t trust him’.
ETA: Thanks Julia and Percysowner! đ
[quote]I think Robin wrote a very nice article attempting to clarify Sam’s position because the show is doing a piss poor job of it at this time. I hope this will be rectified as the season progresses but now Robin must be feeling somewhat defensive for defending Sam. Whether we think it was necessary to defend Sam or not, it was meant as a good thing. :-)[/quote]
Thanks for pointing this out Leah, it hadn’t occurred to me it might seem like that.
Robin for some reason that escapes all understanding we DO need an ‘In defense of Sam’ post and I think you did a lovely job of it. Personally I didn’t intend to criticize you for that at all! It was great to see a ‘hey, hold on just a minute commentary’.
Bevie I do think that if the roles the characters had played so far this season were reversed we would still be here needing an ‘In defense of Sam’ post.
Because the fandom would be out for his blood over having Dean possessed and then tortured when we all know what a horror Dean has of being possessed or being a ‘freak’. Especially if Sam said he did the right thing and he would do it again and made no attempt to show Dean he understood how Dean would feel about it or to apologize.
And it would be really hard to come up with defenses of Sam if all they amounted to was ‘well Dean hurt Sam’s feelings by telling him a few home truths and saying he didn’t trust him’.
ETA: Thanks Julia and Percysowner! đ
Sam didn’t want to die. He only accepted death when it became apparent that he was essentially already dead. During the Trials it started to occur to Sam that he might not survive them. Although honestly Kevin all but told them that in the first place. After all having your spine ripped out of your mouth for all eternity doesn’t sound survivable. Sam didn’t want to be saved if that meant someone innocent was going to get hurt.
In this instance Dean sacrificed Sam and Kevin with his choices. If you go back through the history of the show his sacrifices have had profound affects on the natural order and directly on Sam. Death himself has tried to teach Dean that lesson. But Dean always thinks that where there is a will there is a way. As he said he doesn’t think things through. He sees an opportunity and he takes it.
It has been clear from S1 E1 that Dean didn’t want to be alone. That is not a character flaw just a fact of his character otherwise Sam wouldn’t have said it. Hence “there ain’t no me if there ain’t no you”. I think Dean meant that.
Dean has struggled with letting Sam go throughout the series. Even when he has Dean has known that they are stronger together. And even if he had let Sam go Dean has a support system that he can rely on. Cas, Benny, Garth etc. are all there as his extended family. But who he really wants with him is Sam. The writers have set up a scenario that is going to test the bonds of the brothers in way that has never been done. Usually it is Dean who has lost faith in Sam. For the first time it is Sam who has lost faith in Dean. Of course Sam loves Dean. He would die for Dean. He just won’t put Dean through the same nightmare. Saying those things to Dean broke Sam’s heart. If you look at Jared’s face he was just as devastated as Dean.
Sam didn’t want to die. He only accepted death when it became apparent that he was essentially already dead. During the Trials it started to occur to Sam that he might not survive them. Although honestly Kevin all but told them that in the first place. After all having your spine ripped out of your mouth for all eternity doesn’t sound survivable. Sam didn’t want to be saved if that meant someone innocent was going to get hurt.
In this instance Dean sacrificed Sam and Kevin with his choices. If you go back through the history of the show his sacrifices have had profound affects on the natural order and directly on Sam. Death himself has tried to teach Dean that lesson. But Dean always thinks that where there is a will there is a way. As he said he doesn’t think things through. He sees an opportunity and he takes it.
It has been clear from S1 E1 that Dean didn’t want to be alone. That is not a character flaw just a fact of his character otherwise Sam wouldn’t have said it. Hence “there ain’t no me if there ain’t no you”. I think Dean meant that.
Dean has struggled with letting Sam go throughout the series. Even when he has Dean has known that they are stronger together. And even if he had let Sam go Dean has a support system that he can rely on. Cas, Benny, Garth etc. are all there as his extended family. But who he really wants with him is Sam. The writers have set up a scenario that is going to test the bonds of the brothers in way that has never been done. Usually it is Dean who has lost faith in Sam. For the first time it is Sam who has lost faith in Dean. Of course Sam loves Dean. He would die for Dean. He just won’t put Dean through the same nightmare. Saying those things to Dean broke Sam’s heart. If you look at Jared’s face he was just as devastated as Dean.
@28. Just wondering, what do you feel would suffice in relation to Sam showing you that Dean means something to him. I’m sorry to ask, but I see this so often, that Sam needs to show that he loves Dean, but then there’s no insight as to how. (It reminds me of last season when people were saying that Sam should have looked for Dean but when they were asked what he should have done, where he should have started looking, for how long should he have looked etc there was nothing)
So I’m wondering what you think Sam should do as a display of love. Should he sacrifice for him? He can’t sacrifice himself because Dean wouldn’t want that and would only bring him back so should he be willing to sacrifice others? Would doing deals for Dean’s life be enough to show that Dean means something to Sam? Unfortunately, doing deals is what Dean doesn’t want Sam to do so I don’t see how doing something the other vehemently opposes shows love.
Should Sam lie to Dean and ignore the problems between them, problems that will grow and grow if the situation isn’t dealt with, and the relationship will explode? Should he be wholly appreciative that Dean is willing to do deals for Sam and thank him for doing same, despite Sam not wanting him to do that?
Sam appreciates what Dean has done for him. We saw this in [i]Bad Boys[/i]. That doesn’t mean that he wants or needs Dean to sacrifice for him now. He wants Dean as a brother, not as a savior. He wants their relationship to work, and for that to happen they need to stop destructive patterns of behaviour, that they both acknowledge are there.
In season 8, Sam showed his love for Dean by doing what he believed Dean wanted him to do. He didn’t make a deal to bring him back. He was willing to live without Dean because that’s what he believed Dean wanted. What’s that if not a display of love?
I guess the main difference between the way they show love love is that Dean shows his love by holding on tight, Sam shows his by being willing to let go.
@28. Just wondering, what do you feel would suffice in relation to Sam showing you that Dean means something to him. I’m sorry to ask, but I see this so often, that Sam needs to show that he loves Dean, but then there’s no insight as to how. (It reminds me of last season when people were saying that Sam should have looked for Dean but when they were asked what he should have done, where he should have started looking, for how long should he have looked etc there was nothing)
So I’m wondering what you think Sam should do as a display of love. Should he sacrifice for him? He can’t sacrifice himself because Dean wouldn’t want that and would only bring him back so should he be willing to sacrifice others? Would doing deals for Dean’s life be enough to show that Dean means something to Sam? Unfortunately, doing deals is what Dean doesn’t want Sam to do so I don’t see how doing something the other vehemently opposes shows love.
Should Sam lie to Dean and ignore the problems between them, problems that will grow and grow if the situation isn’t dealt with, and the relationship will explode? Should he be wholly appreciative that Dean is willing to do deals for Sam and thank him for doing same, despite Sam not wanting him to do that?
Sam appreciates what Dean has done for him. We saw this in [i]Bad Boys[/i]. That doesn’t mean that he wants or needs Dean to sacrifice for him now. He wants Dean as a brother, not as a savior. He wants their relationship to work, and for that to happen they need to stop destructive patterns of behaviour, that they both acknowledge are there.
In season 8, Sam showed his love for Dean by doing what he believed Dean wanted him to do. He didn’t make a deal to bring him back. He was willing to live without Dean because that’s what he believed Dean wanted. What’s that if not a display of love?
I guess the main difference between the way they show love love is that Dean shows his love by holding on tight, Sam shows his by being willing to let go.
Yes, thank you Robin for defending Sam. He shouldn’t need defending, but since he does seem to need it, thank you đ
Yes, thank you Robin for defending Sam. He shouldn’t need defending, but since he does seem to need it, thank you đ
[quote name=”Bevie”]Dean doesn’t want to be alone (who would?) but he would rather be hurt and alone than keep Sam from what he really wants. [/quote]
That’s untrue. Dean did the exact opposite when he tricked Sam into becoming an angel meatsuit.
I agree that Sam’s words must have been devastating to Dean. But think about it for a second. How devastating must it have been for Sam to remember killing Kevin, even if it wasn’t really him? How devastating must it have been to realize that he had been possessed by another supernatural entity, after Meg and Lucifer, and to know that the person he trusted the most did it? How terrible the whole experience must have been for someone who has always felt like a freak?
And Sam doesn’t want to die so bad, as you say. If he did, he’d just kill himself. In 9.01, Sam was dying and accepted his imminent death.
Re post #27, Cheryl, I agree with everything you wrote. It’s like the fandom in general didn’t hear “under the same circumstances” from Sam, or “I’d do it again” from Dean. Those 2 statements make a huge difference. Sam doesn’t get a lot of dialogue. Each words counts and none should be ignored.
[quote]Dean doesn’t want to be alone (who would?) but he would rather be hurt and alone than keep Sam from what he really wants. [/quote]
That’s untrue. Dean did the exact opposite when he tricked Sam into becoming an angel meatsuit.
I agree that Sam’s words must have been devastating to Dean. But think about it for a second. How devastating must it have been for Sam to remember killing Kevin, even if it wasn’t really him? How devastating must it have been to realize that he had been possessed by another supernatural entity, after Meg and Lucifer, and to know that the person he trusted the most did it? How terrible the whole experience must have been for someone who has always felt like a freak?
And Sam doesn’t want to die so bad, as you say. If he did, he’d just kill himself. In 9.01, Sam was dying and accepted his imminent death.
Re post #27, Cheryl, I agree with everything you wrote. It’s like the fandom in general didn’t hear “under the same circumstances” from Sam, or “I’d do it again” from Dean. Those 2 statements make a huge difference. Sam doesn’t get a lot of dialogue. Each words counts and none should be ignored.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]Julia I agree that we needed a Sam-centric episode. But we needed one in S8 as well and we didn’t get one. I don’t know if there is anyway to redeem Sam to some in the fandom because they refuse to listen to the dialogue. Even many reviewers are jumping on Sam and completely ignoring everything that Dean said in that conversation. I think the writing was there it was just ignored. I have great sympathy for Dean. He took a gamble and Sam and Kevin paid the price. I was surprised by his statement that he would do it again got such a pass as to hardly even get a mention though. It was the catalyst for Sam expressing himself in the first place. Whenever these two are on screen together having “a talk” I personally pay attention because some important sh*t is going to go down. I know there is a bias in the fandom (not here) but jeez really was I the only one who heard that?[/quote]
Exactly. Dean said he would do all over again what is upsetting Sam in the first place. That seems to go over the heads of some members of fandom. Dean doesn’t listen to what Sam wants, even after everything that has happened, after how hard Sam has tried to get through to him! No wonder Sam is so frustrated, exhausted and fed up. Dean won’t hear him! Haven’t we all had people in our lives, loved ones included, just like that? Now I realize that, from the moment John placed baby Sam into four-year-old Dean’s arms the night Mary burned to death on the ceiling, Dean felt preserving his brother’s life was his personal, lifelong responsibility, but Sam is 31 now, a grown man. Dean has to realize that his brother is an adult with a mind of his own who has, literally, been to hell and back and let him make his own choices–even if one of them is to die–permanently–and leave Dean alone. Love, Robin
[quote]Julia I agree that we needed a Sam-centric episode. But we needed one in S8 as well and we didn’t get one. I don’t know if there is anyway to redeem Sam to some in the fandom because they refuse to listen to the dialogue. Even many reviewers are jumping on Sam and completely ignoring everything that Dean said in that conversation. I think the writing was there it was just ignored. I have great sympathy for Dean. He took a gamble and Sam and Kevin paid the price. I was surprised by his statement that he would do it again got such a pass as to hardly even get a mention though. It was the catalyst for Sam expressing himself in the first place. Whenever these two are on screen together having “a talk” I personally pay attention because some important sh*t is going to go down. I know there is a bias in the fandom (not here) but jeez really was I the only one who heard that?[/quote]
Exactly. Dean said he would do all over again what is upsetting Sam in the first place. That seems to go over the heads of some members of fandom. Dean doesn’t listen to what Sam wants, even after everything that has happened, after how hard Sam has tried to get through to him! No wonder Sam is so frustrated, exhausted and fed up. Dean won’t hear him! Haven’t we all had people in our lives, loved ones included, just like that? Now I realize that, from the moment John placed baby Sam into four-year-old Dean’s arms the night Mary burned to death on the ceiling, Dean felt preserving his brother’s life was his personal, lifelong responsibility, but Sam is 31 now, a grown man. Dean has to realize that his brother is an adult with a mind of his own who has, literally, been to hell and back and let him make his own choices–even if one of them is to die–permanently–and leave Dean alone. Love, Robin
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]Yes, thank you Robin for defending Sam. He shouldn’t need defending, but since he does seem to need it, thank you :D[/quote]
As far as I’m concerned, Sam and Dean are two halves of one whole, which may or may not be healthy, given the erotically co-dependent remark a nasty angel once made about them, but let’s face it–it’s their screwed-up relationship that has kept us tuning in for nine years! I love these two characters so much, their rift is killing me, but killing me more is the rift in fandom dividing Winchester loyalty. I’m neither a Samgirl or a Deangirl, folks, I’m a SamnDeangirl. To me, they’re like conjoined twins sharing a heart, and can never be separated. Love, Robin
[quote]Yes, thank you Robin for defending Sam. He shouldn’t need defending, but since he does seem to need it, thank you :D[/quote]
As far as I’m concerned, Sam and Dean are two halves of one whole, which may or may not be healthy, given the erotically co-dependent remark a nasty angel once made about them, but let’s face it–it’s their screwed-up relationship that has kept us tuning in for nine years! I love these two characters so much, their rift is killing me, but killing me more is the rift in fandom dividing Winchester loyalty. I’m neither a Samgirl or a Deangirl, folks, I’m a SamnDeangirl. To me, they’re like conjoined twins sharing a heart, and can never be separated. Love, Robin
[quote name=”sylvia37″]Awesome thread, Alice. I think Sam is a truly amazing person who has been through so much and is still standing and trying to fight the good fight. I think the fact that he is still by Dean’s side now instead of walking away as he might have done in the past when he was this hurt, says a lot for how he has grown in the last couple of years.
What I want for Sam is for Dean to realize that his brother loves him no matter what. I want Dean to see that Sam trying to get to Dean to stop basing his own happiness on Sam’s and sacrificing everything for him is Sam showing him that he loves him and wants him to be happy for himself and not see it as Sam trying to push him away. I think that if Dean could just see those things as the expression of love that they are, then he might start trusting that Sam is more than just his responsibility and is truly his brother.
I’m sharing a link for those who would like to read a self proclaimed “Dean Girl” meta on “The Purge” and why she gets why Sam said what he did. It’s two parts, the first about Dean and the second about Sam and it’s truly the most insightful thing I’ve read about both of them.
[url]http://mizpah1931.livejournal.com/[/url][/quote]
that post made me cry. thank you for sharing this link. i agree cheryl, it should be mandatory reading.
[quote]Awesome thread, Alice. I think Sam is a truly amazing person who has been through so much and is still standing and trying to fight the good fight. I think the fact that he is still by Dean’s side now instead of walking away as he might have done in the past when he was this hurt, says a lot for how he has grown in the last couple of years.
What I want for Sam is for Dean to realize that his brother loves him no matter what. I want Dean to see that Sam trying to get to Dean to stop basing his own happiness on Sam’s and sacrificing everything for him is Sam showing him that he loves him and wants him to be happy for himself and not see it as Sam trying to push him away. I think that if Dean could just see those things as the expression of love that they are, then he might start trusting that Sam is more than just his responsibility and is truly his brother.
I’m sharing a link for those who would like to read a self proclaimed “Dean Girl” meta on “The Purge” and why she gets why Sam said what he did. It’s two parts, the first about Dean and the second about Sam and it’s truly the most insightful thing I’ve read about both of them.
[url]http://mizpah1931.livejournal.com/[/url][/quote]
that post made me cry. thank you for sharing this link. i agree cheryl, it should be mandatory reading.
like mary poppins….sam winchester is practically perfect in every single way đ
i personally don’t think sam needs defending because he did absolutely nothing wrong.
but i do so love reading so many wonderful posts from you guys and am tickled pink by all the love and support you are showing sam . what a nice change.
like mary poppins….sam winchester is practically perfect in every single way đ
i personally don’t think sam needs defending because he did absolutely nothing wrong.
but i do so love reading so many wonderful posts from you guys and am tickled pink by all the love and support you are showing sam . what a nice change.
What I love about Sam- he is a soldier. Like Bobby said he’s incredibly brave and has been running into burning buildings since he was twelve. He is forgiving,hella smart and thoroughly and scarily focused when he’s on the job. And I love him even more now that he has decided to take that focus and aim it at his relationship with Dean. Sam has always loved ,trusted, and supported Dean and I do not see any change in it lately. He’s been following Deans orders since they were children and he implicitly trusts him . This time Dean damaged that trust.
This is why I love Dean- he really is a brilliant hunter. On the field he is tactically brilliant. He’s a born leader and that’s why he is in charge when they hunt. He is a fighter. This is his nature. He fights against everything and I believe he thinks that what he’s fighting for is better world. Also Dean is every bit as bada** as he thinks he is but… This is not an attitude that works well in the personal sphere. And often chaos is the result of Deans approach top his personal life from an adversarial pov.
Bobby once said that these two boys were the most self centered, insular people he ever knew and he was right. But he was wrong too. They do care about the rest of the world as much as they care about each other. And I think that SAMs compassion and empathy for the world and Deans sheer bad**edness are a wonderful combination. And that’s why they’ll get through this -whatever it is – and come out the other side stronger. They’ll be together because the world needs them to be together. It’s only together that they can change the world.
What I love about Sam- he is a soldier. Like Bobby said he’s incredibly brave and has been running into burning buildings since he was twelve. He is forgiving,hella smart and thoroughly and scarily focused when he’s on the job. And I love him even more now that he has decided to take that focus and aim it at his relationship with Dean. Sam has always loved ,trusted, and supported Dean and I do not see any change in it lately. He’s been following Deans orders since they were children and he implicitly trusts him . This time Dean damaged that trust.
This is why I love Dean- he really is a brilliant hunter. On the field he is tactically brilliant. He’s a born leader and that’s why he is in charge when they hunt. He is a fighter. This is his nature. He fights against everything and I believe he thinks that what he’s fighting for is better world. Also Dean is every bit as bada** as he thinks he is but… This is not an attitude that works well in the personal sphere. And often chaos is the result of Deans approach top his personal life from an adversarial pov.
Bobby once said that these two boys were the most self centered, insular people he ever knew and he was right. But he was wrong too. They do care about the rest of the world as much as they care about each other. And I think that SAMs compassion and empathy for the world and Deans sheer bad**edness are a wonderful combination. And that’s why they’ll get through this -whatever it is – and come out the other side stronger. They’ll be together because the world needs them to be together. It’s only together that they can change the world.
I don’t think anything Sam has said has been wrong. I’ve just been cringing at the way he has said it – but he ain’t a bit wrong. True, it takes me a few days to get over the abrasiveness of it all, but he’s right to say what he is saying. Dean needs to see it and I’m sure he will, give how much room he has given Sam in the past to do and say things that have hurt him but eventually Dean comes around. They have to deal with this ongoing issue and I’m hoping the writers have started something they very much intend to finish for the better.
I don’t think anything Sam has said has been wrong. I’ve just been cringing at the way he has said it – but he ain’t a bit wrong. True, it takes me a few days to get over the abrasiveness of it all, but he’s right to say what he is saying. Dean needs to see it and I’m sure he will, give how much room he has given Sam in the past to do and say things that have hurt him but eventually Dean comes around. They have to deal with this ongoing issue and I’m hoping the writers have started something they very much intend to finish for the better.
Sam has a right to be angry but that dialogue was nothing but blanket accusations.
Dean never sacrifices anything at personal cost? So apparently, he is and always has been a callous coward.
His entire motivation is selfish? So, he never does anything good or heroic.
He thinks wrongly about doing more good than harm? So apparently he is also deluded about being a hero.
And, HE is the entire problem in the relationship. Everything that has ever gone wrong between them can be traced back to Dean and Dean`s attitude.
Nothing about those “home truths” were about the current situation, they were wholesale character-statements.
Sam or rather the writers told us that Dean never has been a good person in his entire life and doesn`t have a single admirable character trait.
Dean once said he believes he is 90 % crap. Sam just informed him that it`s actually a 100 %.
I hated that scene and its message. Especially as Dean was not allowed a defense of at least the 10 % of his character he himself doesn`t hate.
Sam has a right to be angry but that dialogue was nothing but blanket accusations.
Dean never sacrifices anything at personal cost? So apparently, he is and always has been a callous coward.
His entire motivation is selfish? So, he never does anything good or heroic.
He thinks wrongly about doing more good than harm? So apparently he is also deluded about being a hero.
And, HE is the entire problem in the relationship. Everything that has ever gone wrong between them can be traced back to Dean and Dean`s attitude.
Nothing about those “home truths” were about the current situation, they were wholesale character-statements.
Sam or rather the writers told us that Dean never has been a good person in his entire life and doesn`t have a single admirable character trait.
Dean once said he believes he is 90 % crap. Sam just informed him that it`s actually a 100 %.
I hated that scene and its message. Especially as Dean was not allowed a defense of at least the 10 % of his character he himself doesn`t hate.
[quote name=”digyd”]I don’t think anything Sam has said has been wrong. I’ve just been cringing at the way he has said it – but he ain’t a bit wrong. True, it takes me a few days to get over the abrasiveness of it all, but he’s right to say what he is saying. Dean needs to see it and I’m sure he will, give how much room he has given Sam in the past to do and say things that have hurt him but eventually Dean comes around. They have to deal with this ongoing issue and I’m hoping the writers have started something they very much intend to finish for the better.[/quote]
So basically, Dean needs to see that he has a vile, selfish, cowardly personality who has never done good in his entire life and is to blame for everything in the relationship?
I would hate that. The character already hates himself enough as it is, last thing I want is to see himself as this vile thing Sam described him of being.
[quote]I don’t think anything Sam has said has been wrong. I’ve just been cringing at the way he has said it – but he ain’t a bit wrong. True, it takes me a few days to get over the abrasiveness of it all, but he’s right to say what he is saying. Dean needs to see it and I’m sure he will, give how much room he has given Sam in the past to do and say things that have hurt him but eventually Dean comes around. They have to deal with this ongoing issue and I’m hoping the writers have started something they very much intend to finish for the better.[/quote]
So basically, Dean needs to see that he has a vile, selfish, cowardly personality who has never done good in his entire life and is to blame for everything in the relationship?
I would hate that. The character already hates himself enough as it is, last thing I want is to see himself as this vile thing Sam described him of being.
Thanks for this Robin, I agree with you. When Sam said in the [i]same circumtances[/i] he wouldn’t do what Dean did, it’s not the same as saying that he will let Dean die. I think if Sam can save Dean from death, he will, but not by going against Dean’s wishes. Hey, don’t get me wrong, glad Dean chose the path he did, cause otherwise, Sam would be dead and there would be no show! đ I love both these guys equally, flaws and all. Isn’t that why we tune in in the first place? đ
Thanks for this Robin, I agree with you. When Sam said in the [i]same circumtances[/i] he wouldn’t do what Dean did, it’s not the same as saying that he will let Dean die. I think if Sam can save Dean from death, he will, but not by going against Dean’s wishes. Hey, don’t get me wrong, glad Dean chose the path he did, cause otherwise, Sam would be dead and there would be no show! đ I love both these guys equally, flaws and all. Isn’t that why we tune in in the first place? đ
Sasha – Sam MAY think Dean is being a little selfish, but Sam is hurt and he needs to express that. Dean needs to get his feelings out too and it probably won’t be pretty either. Overall, I don’t think Sam is trying to say all that and neither am I. I think someone would revoke my Dean girl status if I did. đ
Please forgive my unwillingness to go much deeper than that. I’m willing to state my opinion of the moment, but the story isn’t over yet so I’d rather try to give them both the benefit of the doubt right now. I just don’t want to be mad at either of them, so I’m not.
Sasha – Sam MAY think Dean is being a little selfish, but Sam is hurt and he needs to express that. Dean needs to get his feelings out too and it probably won’t be pretty either. Overall, I don’t think Sam is trying to say all that and neither am I. I think someone would revoke my Dean girl status if I did. đ
Please forgive my unwillingness to go much deeper than that. I’m willing to state my opinion of the moment, but the story isn’t over yet so I’d rather try to give them both the benefit of the doubt right now. I just don’t want to be mad at either of them, so I’m not.
Sasha this is exactly my previous point. I think if you go back and watch the episode especially the end conversation I think you will find that that is not what Sam said. The dialogue here is very important and the order in which is was said. When Dean said he would do it again. Meaning that as long as Sam was alive it was worth the sacrifice, that was when Sam said it’s easy to do the sacrificing if you aren’t the one getting hurt. Let’s face it, it was Sam and Kevin who were hurt. This is a lesson that Death himself has tried to teach Dean. Even Gabriel tried to teach Sam the very same lesson. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. But as Dean said he doesn’t think things all the way through. He sees an opportunity and he takes it without really weighing all the consequences. Case in point he was about to make a deal with Crowley before Gadreel showed up. And who doesn’t think the MOC isn’t going to bite Dean in the ass. He is going along with Crowley’s plan. What could possibly go wrong. When Sam said he didn’t need Dean to be his savior what he meant was Sam didn’t think he needed saving. He had made his choice, made his peace. Sam didn’t want anyone to reverse his death because he knew how that always ended up for them. Someone innocent was going to get hurt or worse. Sam said that everything that has gone wrong between them has been because they are brothers. The lengths they will go to to save each other is what causes the chaos around them. This was all about what had just happened and what led up to it. Dean crossed a line even he knew shouldn’t have been crossed. He knew in the hospital, he knew every time Gadreel told him that Sam was not ready for the truth. I thought Jensen’s portrayal of a horribly conflicted Dean was perfection. He knew this was all going to go sideways he was just hoping and praying that it wouldn’t. And sideways it went. I sure didn’t get the impression that anyone, Sam or the writers were implying that Dean has never been a good person. On the contrary the writers have gone out of their way the entire season to portray Dean as a totally sympathetic character. I got what Dean did and why. Again I thought Jensen’s portrayal has been flawless this season. This is a very meaty role. Dean made decisions that have consequences that he couldn’t have expected (although being a Winchester you would have thought it couldn’t have gone any other way). I for one can’t wait to see what the writers have in store for Dean. How is he going to process all of this? How dark is he going to go? Will Sam have to test his statement that he would never do to Dean what Dean did to him? Can’t wait.
Sasha this is exactly my previous point. I think if you go back and watch the episode especially the end conversation I think you will find that that is not what Sam said. The dialogue here is very important and the order in which is was said. When Dean said he would do it again. Meaning that as long as Sam was alive it was worth the sacrifice, that was when Sam said it’s easy to do the sacrificing if you aren’t the one getting hurt. Let’s face it, it was Sam and Kevin who were hurt. This is a lesson that Death himself has tried to teach Dean. Even Gabriel tried to teach Sam the very same lesson. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. But as Dean said he doesn’t think things all the way through. He sees an opportunity and he takes it without really weighing all the consequences. Case in point he was about to make a deal with Crowley before Gadreel showed up. And who doesn’t think the MOC isn’t going to bite Dean in the ass. He is going along with Crowley’s plan. What could possibly go wrong. When Sam said he didn’t need Dean to be his savior what he meant was Sam didn’t think he needed saving. He had made his choice, made his peace. Sam didn’t want anyone to reverse his death because he knew how that always ended up for them. Someone innocent was going to get hurt or worse. Sam said that everything that has gone wrong between them has been because they are brothers. The lengths they will go to to save each other is what causes the chaos around them. This was all about what had just happened and what led up to it. Dean crossed a line even he knew shouldn’t have been crossed. He knew in the hospital, he knew every time Gadreel told him that Sam was not ready for the truth. I thought Jensen’s portrayal of a horribly conflicted Dean was perfection. He knew this was all going to go sideways he was just hoping and praying that it wouldn’t. And sideways it went. I sure didn’t get the impression that anyone, Sam or the writers were implying that Dean has never been a good person. On the contrary the writers have gone out of their way the entire season to portray Dean as a totally sympathetic character. I got what Dean did and why. Again I thought Jensen’s portrayal has been flawless this season. This is a very meaty role. Dean made decisions that have consequences that he couldn’t have expected (although being a Winchester you would have thought it couldn’t have gone any other way). I for one can’t wait to see what the writers have in store for Dean. How is he going to process all of this? How dark is he going to go? Will Sam have to test his statement that he would never do to Dean what Dean did to him? Can’t wait.
[quote name=”Sasha”][quote name=”digyd”]I don’t think anything Sam has said has been wrong. I’ve just been cringing at the way he has said it – but he ain’t a bit wrong. True, it takes me a few days to get over the abrasiveness of it all, but he’s right to say what he is saying. Dean needs to see it and I’m sure he will, give how much room he has given Sam in the past to do and say things that have hurt him but eventually Dean comes around. They have to deal with this ongoing issue and I’m hoping the writers have started something they very much intend to finish for the better.[/quote]
So basically, Dean needs to see that he has a vile, selfish, cowardly personality who has never done good in his entire life and is to blame for everything in the relationship?
I would hate that. The character already hates himself enough as it is, last thing I want is to see himself as this vile thing Sam described him of being.[/quote]
[quote name=”Sasha”][quote name=”digyd”]I don’t think anything Sam has said has been wrong. I’ve just been cringing at the way he has said it – but he ain’t a bit wrong. True, it takes me a few days to get over the abrasiveness of it all, but he’s right to say what he is saying. Dean needs to see it and I’m sure he will, give how much room he has given Sam in the past to do and say things that have hurt him but eventually Dean comes around. They have to deal with this ongoing issue and I’m hoping the writers have started something they very much intend to finish for the better.[/quote]
So basically, Dean needs to see that he has a vile, selfish, cowardly personality who has never done good in his entire life and is to blame for everything in the relationship?
I would hate that. The character already hates himself enough as it is, last thing I want is to see himself as this vile thing Sam described him of being.[/quote]
When did Sam say anything remotely to what you are describing…..I really need to see the actual dialogue in which Sam says this…I usually hang on every word that comes out of that mans mouth and none of what you are saying Sam said , I don’t recall any of that…
This leads me to conclude, these are in fact your words and your feelings about dean and not Sam’s.
[quote][quote]I don’t think anything Sam has said has been wrong. I’ve just been cringing at the way he has said it – but he ain’t a bit wrong. True, it takes me a few days to get over the abrasiveness of it all, but he’s right to say what he is saying. Dean needs to see it and I’m sure he will, give how much room he has given Sam in the past to do and say things that have hurt him but eventually Dean comes around. They have to deal with this ongoing issue and I’m hoping the writers have started something they very much intend to finish for the better.[/quote]
So basically, Dean needs to see that he has a vile, selfish, cowardly personality who has never done good in his entire life and is to blame for everything in the relationship?
I would hate that. The character already hates himself enough as it is, last thing I want is to see himself as this vile thing Sam described him of being.[/quote]
[quote][quote]I don’t think anything Sam has said has been wrong. I’ve just been cringing at the way he has said it – but he ain’t a bit wrong. True, it takes me a few days to get over the abrasiveness of it all, but he’s right to say what he is saying. Dean needs to see it and I’m sure he will, give how much room he has given Sam in the past to do and say things that have hurt him but eventually Dean comes around. They have to deal with this ongoing issue and I’m hoping the writers have started something they very much intend to finish for the better.[/quote]
So basically, Dean needs to see that he has a vile, selfish, cowardly personality who has never done good in his entire life and is to blame for everything in the relationship?
I would hate that. The character already hates himself enough as it is, last thing I want is to see himself as this vile thing Sam described him of being.[/quote]
When did Sam say anything remotely to what you are describing…..I really need to see the actual dialogue in which Sam says this…I usually hang on every word that comes out of that mans mouth and none of what you are saying Sam said , I don’t recall any of that…
This leads me to conclude, these are in fact your words and your feelings about dean and not Sam’s.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]Sasha this is exactly my previous point. I think if you go back and watch the episode especially the end conversation I think you will find that that is not what Sam said. The dialogue here is very important and the order in which is was said. When Dean said he would do it again. Meaning that as long as Sam was alive it was worth the sacrifice, that was when Sam said it’s easy to do the sacrificing if you aren’t the one getting hurt. [/quote]
That`s not how the scene played or the dialogue was written in my eyes.
Sam said “I give you this much, you are certainly willing to do the sacrifice, as long as you are not the one being hurt”.
That doesn`t at all connect to their current situation. That is saying Dean is such a coward, he only sacrifices other people. Not just in this instance. Always.
Equally with “you think you do more good than harm but you are wrong”. Nothing connects that to the current problem.
As they stand those are statements about Dean going from the Pilot to now, about his character in the entire show. In relation to Sam and everybody else. And nothing good is left about that character.
So I really bristle when I see that celebrated as “home truths” Dean needs to hear or that it was all accurate.
The character has made a big mistake but he doesn`t deserve to be retconned into this evil, selfish person who has no good inside of him.
I have no problem whatsoever with the “I wouldn`t save you” but the blanket character damning words? No, just no.
[quote]Sasha this is exactly my previous point. I think if you go back and watch the episode especially the end conversation I think you will find that that is not what Sam said. The dialogue here is very important and the order in which is was said. When Dean said he would do it again. Meaning that as long as Sam was alive it was worth the sacrifice, that was when Sam said it’s easy to do the sacrificing if you aren’t the one getting hurt. [/quote]
That`s not how the scene played or the dialogue was written in my eyes.
Sam said “I give you this much, you are certainly willing to do the sacrifice, as long as you are not the one being hurt”.
That doesn`t at all connect to their current situation. That is saying Dean is such a coward, he only sacrifices other people. Not just in this instance. Always.
Equally with “you think you do more good than harm but you are wrong”. Nothing connects that to the current problem.
As they stand those are statements about Dean going from the Pilot to now, about his character in the entire show. In relation to Sam and everybody else. And nothing good is left about that character.
So I really bristle when I see that celebrated as “home truths” Dean needs to hear or that it was all accurate.
The character has made a big mistake but he doesn`t deserve to be retconned into this evil, selfish person who has no good inside of him.
I have no problem whatsoever with the “I wouldn`t save you” but the blanket character damning words? No, just no.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]Sasha this is exactly my previous point. I think if you go back and watch the episode especially the end conversation I think you will find that that is not what Sam said. The dialogue here is very important and the order in which is was said. When Dean said he would do it again. Meaning that as long as Sam was alive it was worth the sacrifice, that was when Sam said it’s easy to do the sacrificing if you aren’t the one getting hurt. Let’s face it, it was Sam and Kevin who were hurt. This is a lesson that Death himself has tried to teach Dean. Even Gabriel tried to teach Sam the very same lesson. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. But as Dean said he doesn’t think things all the way through. He sees an opportunity and he takes it without really weighing all the consequences. Case in point he was about to make a deal with Crowley before Gadreel showed up. And who doesn’t think the MOC isn’t going to bite Dean in the ass. He is going along with Crowley’s plan. What could possibly go wrong. When Sam said he didn’t need Dean to be his savior what he meant was Sam didn’t think he needed saving. He had made his choice, made his peace. Sam didn’t want anyone to reverse his death because he knew how that always ended up for them. Someone innocent was going to get hurt or worse. Sam said that everything that has gone wrong between them has been because they are brothers. The lengths they will go to to save each other is what causes the chaos around them. This was all about what had just happened and what led up to it. Dean crossed a line even he knew shouldn’t have been crossed. He knew in the hospital, he knew every time Gadreel told him that Sam was not ready for the truth. I thought Jensen’s portrayal of a horribly conflicted Dean was perfection. He knew this was all going to go sideways he was just hoping and praying that it wouldn’t. And sideways it went. I sure didn’t get the impression that anyone, Sam or the writers were implying that Dean has never been a good person. On the contrary the writers have gone out of their way the entire season to portray Dean as a totally sympathetic character. I got what Dean did and why. Again I thought Jensen’s portrayal has been flawless this season. This is a very meaty role. Dean made decisions that have consequences that he couldn’t have expected (although being a Winchester you would have thought it couldn’t have gone any other way). I for one can’t wait to see what the writers have in store for Dean. How is he going to process all of this? How dark is he going to go? Will Sam have to test his statement that he would never do to Dean what Dean did to him? Can’t wait.[/quote]
I totally agree Cheryl. You are exactly right…it’s not Sam who is dissing everything dean has ever done..it’s the fans. Sam is referring to this one circumstance, not their entire lives..and Sam is right, dean’s comment about doing it again…that he is willing to sacrifice not only Kevin, but sam’s trust just as long as Sam is alive. For Sam it’s too high a cost and not just for Sam and Kevin, given past history it will end up in the end destroying dean even if he cannot see it.
[quote]Sasha this is exactly my previous point. I think if you go back and watch the episode especially the end conversation I think you will find that that is not what Sam said. The dialogue here is very important and the order in which is was said. When Dean said he would do it again. Meaning that as long as Sam was alive it was worth the sacrifice, that was when Sam said it’s easy to do the sacrificing if you aren’t the one getting hurt. Let’s face it, it was Sam and Kevin who were hurt. This is a lesson that Death himself has tried to teach Dean. Even Gabriel tried to teach Sam the very same lesson. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. But as Dean said he doesn’t think things all the way through. He sees an opportunity and he takes it without really weighing all the consequences. Case in point he was about to make a deal with Crowley before Gadreel showed up. And who doesn’t think the MOC isn’t going to bite Dean in the ass. He is going along with Crowley’s plan. What could possibly go wrong. When Sam said he didn’t need Dean to be his savior what he meant was Sam didn’t think he needed saving. He had made his choice, made his peace. Sam didn’t want anyone to reverse his death because he knew how that always ended up for them. Someone innocent was going to get hurt or worse. Sam said that everything that has gone wrong between them has been because they are brothers. The lengths they will go to to save each other is what causes the chaos around them. This was all about what had just happened and what led up to it. Dean crossed a line even he knew shouldn’t have been crossed. He knew in the hospital, he knew every time Gadreel told him that Sam was not ready for the truth. I thought Jensen’s portrayal of a horribly conflicted Dean was perfection. He knew this was all going to go sideways he was just hoping and praying that it wouldn’t. And sideways it went. I sure didn’t get the impression that anyone, Sam or the writers were implying that Dean has never been a good person. On the contrary the writers have gone out of their way the entire season to portray Dean as a totally sympathetic character. I got what Dean did and why. Again I thought Jensen’s portrayal has been flawless this season. This is a very meaty role. Dean made decisions that have consequences that he couldn’t have expected (although being a Winchester you would have thought it couldn’t have gone any other way). I for one can’t wait to see what the writers have in store for Dean. How is he going to process all of this? How dark is he going to go? Will Sam have to test his statement that he would never do to Dean what Dean did to him? Can’t wait.[/quote]
I totally agree Cheryl. You are exactly right…it’s not Sam who is dissing everything dean has ever done..it’s the fans. Sam is referring to this one circumstance, not their entire lives..and Sam is right, dean’s comment about doing it again…that he is willing to sacrifice not only Kevin, but sam’s trust just as long as Sam is alive. For Sam it’s too high a cost and not just for Sam and Kevin, given past history it will end up in the end destroying dean even if he cannot see it.
[quote name=”nappi815″]
When did Sam say anything remotely to what you are describing…..I really need to see the actual dialogue in which Sam says this…I usually hang on every word that comes out of that mans mouth and none of what you are saying Sam said , I don’t recall any of that…
This leads me to conclude, these are in fact your words and your feelings about dean and not Sam’s.[/quote]
No, these are not my feelings about Dean at all. In fact, I was terribly offended by them.
That is however what sam said in my eyes.
“I give you this much, you are willing to make sacrifice as long as you are not the one being hurt”. What does that mean? What is that statement saying?
That Dean only sacrifices others, never himself. Which fits the definition of a callous coward.
“You think you are a hero, you think you do more good than harm. But you are wrong”.
That means that Dean is – falsely – thinking about himself as a hero who does good. He is a) not a hero and b) even deluded about being one.
What sam described, what the writers described through dialogue is a terrible person.
That is why I think Dean needs defending after that episode.
[quote]
When did Sam say anything remotely to what you are describing…..I really need to see the actual dialogue in which Sam says this…I usually hang on every word that comes out of that mans mouth and none of what you are saying Sam said , I don’t recall any of that…
This leads me to conclude, these are in fact your words and your feelings about dean and not Sam’s.[/quote]
No, these are not my feelings about Dean at all. In fact, I was terribly offended by them.
That is however what sam said in my eyes.
“I give you this much, you are willing to make sacrifice as long as you are not the one being hurt”. What does that mean? What is that statement saying?
That Dean only sacrifices others, never himself. Which fits the definition of a callous coward.
“You think you are a hero, you think you do more good than harm. But you are wrong”.
That means that Dean is – falsely – thinking about himself as a hero who does good. He is a) not a hero and b) even deluded about being one.
What sam described, what the writers described through dialogue is a terrible person.
That is why I think Dean needs defending after that episode.
.
“I give you this much, you are willing to make sacrifice as long as you are not the one being hurt”. What does that mean? What is that statement saying?
That Sam and Kevin were the ones that were hurt not Dean.
That Dean only sacrifices others, never himself. Which fits the definition of a callous coward.
That was not said in this conversation.
“You think you are a hero, you think you do more good than harm. But you are wrong”.
Sam didn’t think he needed saving. He didn’t need Dean to be his hero. Because in this instance it did more harm than good.
That means that Dean is – falsely – thinking about himself as a hero who does good. He is a) not a hero and b) even deluded about being one.
Dean’s thoughts haven’t been shown yet. So we don’t know how he is going to process this.
What sam described, what the writers described through dialogue is a terrible person.
What was described is how Sam feels about what Dean did. No where did Sam say that Dean was a terrible person. If Sam felt that way he wouldn’t still be with Dean.
That is why I think Dean needs defending after that episode.[/quote]
Defending Dean is fine but I think the intention of the scene was to show Sam’s justified anger at what Dean had done. They were harsh truths to Sam and not to Dean. The question is what compromise will these guys come to.
.
“I give you this much, you are willing to make sacrifice as long as you are not the one being hurt”. What does that mean? What is that statement saying?
That Sam and Kevin were the ones that were hurt not Dean.
That Dean only sacrifices others, never himself. Which fits the definition of a callous coward.
That was not said in this conversation.
“You think you are a hero, you think you do more good than harm. But you are wrong”.
Sam didn’t think he needed saving. He didn’t need Dean to be his hero. Because in this instance it did more harm than good.
That means that Dean is – falsely – thinking about himself as a hero who does good. He is a) not a hero and b) even deluded about being one.
Dean’s thoughts haven’t been shown yet. So we don’t know how he is going to process this.
What sam described, what the writers described through dialogue is a terrible person.
What was described is how Sam feels about what Dean did. No where did Sam say that Dean was a terrible person. If Sam felt that way he wouldn’t still be with Dean.
That is why I think Dean needs defending after that episode.[/quote]
Defending Dean is fine but I think the intention of the scene was to show Sam’s justified anger at what Dean had done. They were harsh truths to Sam and not to Dean. The question is what compromise will these guys come to.
You said it yourself. It is how you see the scene with your eyes. Not everyone sees it the way you do. I happen to agree with Cheryl…Sam telling dean he is willing to sacrifice as long as he’s not hurt comes soon after dean says he’d do it again. Even knowing the end result…that is kind of selfish. Not that it’s not coming from a place of love..but it’s an unhealthy place of love. Sam has been down this road before where dean has sacrificed and Sam paid the price…where he saved Sam and Sam and innocents paid the price.
You said it yourself. It is how you see the scene with your eyes. Not everyone sees it the way you do. I happen to agree with Cheryl…Sam telling dean he is willing to sacrifice as long as he’s not hurt comes soon after dean says he’d do it again. Even knowing the end result…that is kind of selfish. Not that it’s not coming from a place of love..but it’s an unhealthy place of love. Sam has been down this road before where dean has sacrificed and Sam paid the price…where he saved Sam and Sam and innocents paid the price.
Cheryl, I’m with you. I’m going to leave all the posting to you…you are way more eloquent and to the point…save me from carpal tunnel đ
Cheryl, I’m with you. I’m going to leave all the posting to you…you are way more eloquent and to the point…save me from carpal tunnel đ
Sorry Nappi I’m off the merry go round. This could go on forever. Everyone see’s the show how they see the show.
Sorry Nappi I’m off the merry go round. This could go on forever. Everyone see’s the show how they see the show.
[quote name=”cheryl42″]Sorry Nappi I’m off the merry go round. This could go on forever. Everyone see’s the show how they see the show.[/quote]
I totally agree. This ride is a bit tedious…guess that’s why carver is finally taking the boys off this ride as well
Time to try something new and exciting đ
[quote]Sorry Nappi I’m off the merry go round. This could go on forever. Everyone see’s the show how they see the show.[/quote]
I totally agree. This ride is a bit tedious…guess that’s why carver is finally taking the boys off this ride as well
Time to try something new and exciting đ
[quote name=”Sasha”]
Sam said “I give you this much, you are certainly willing to do the sacrifice, as long as you are not the one being hurt”.
That doesn`t at all connect to their current situation. That is saying Dean is such a coward, he only sacrifices other people. Not just in this instance. Always. [/quote]
That does connect to the current situation. Dean said he would do the same thing again, even though Kevin got killed. If we take him at his word there, Dean would knowingly let Kevin die to keep Sam by his side? I can see why Sam bristled up at that.
[quote name=”Sasha”] Equally with “you think you do more good than harm but you are wrong”. Nothing connects that to the current problem.[/quote]
This does connect again. Sam was saved, but not only is Kevin dead, but he was killed by Sam’s hand. So in this instance Dean did more harm than good to those he loves.
[quote name=”Sasha”]
As they stand those are statements about Dean going from the Pilot to now, about his character in the entire show. In relation to Sam and everybody else. And nothing good is left about that character.[/quote]
I don’t agree that they relate to his entire personality. Sam was angry about the possession (and possibly stopping the trials) and that is what he was talking about. Sam never mentions anything that is not relevant to Season 9 and possibly 8.23 Sacrifice
SAM
And that… is the problem. You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you’re doing is worth it because you’ve convinced yourself you’re doing more good than bad… But you’re not.
[DEAN’s blank eyes stare at him]
I mean, Kevin’s dead, Crowley’s in the wind. We’re no closer to beating this angel thing. Please tell me, what is the upside of me being alive?
No-one I know, even my fellow Sam girls, thinks Dean was evil or selfish, but only messed up by the incredible difficulties he’s fought his entire life. But Sam has a duty to call out Dean on his mistakes when people are dying as a result.
[quote]
Sam said “I give you this much, you are certainly willing to do the sacrifice, as long as you are not the one being hurt”.
That doesn`t at all connect to their current situation. That is saying Dean is such a coward, he only sacrifices other people. Not just in this instance. Always. [/quote]
That does connect to the current situation. Dean said he would do the same thing again, even though Kevin got killed. If we take him at his word there, Dean would knowingly let Kevin die to keep Sam by his side? I can see why Sam bristled up at that.
[quote] Equally with “you think you do more good than harm but you are wrong”. Nothing connects that to the current problem.[/quote]
This does connect again. Sam was saved, but not only is Kevin dead, but he was killed by Sam’s hand. So in this instance Dean did more harm than good to those he loves.
[quote]
As they stand those are statements about Dean going from the Pilot to now, about his character in the entire show. In relation to Sam and everybody else. And nothing good is left about that character.[/quote]
I don’t agree that they relate to his entire personality. Sam was angry about the possession (and possibly stopping the trials) and that is what he was talking about. Sam never mentions anything that is not relevant to Season 9 and possibly 8.23 Sacrifice
SAM
And that… is the problem. You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you’re doing is worth it because you’ve convinced yourself you’re doing more good than bad… But you’re not.
[DEAN’s blank eyes stare at him]
I mean, Kevin’s dead, Crowley’s in the wind. We’re no closer to beating this angel thing. Please tell me, what is the upside of me being alive?
No-one I know, even my fellow Sam girls, thinks Dean was evil or selfish, but only messed up by the incredible difficulties he’s fought his entire life. But Sam has a duty to call out Dean on his mistakes when people are dying as a result.
Yes, to hear Sam say what he did was quite jarring, but all he is saying is “when it’s your time to go, go.” Maybe Sam is tired and doesn’t see the point anymore. Whatever the reason I think Sam is angry about anyone doing anything to him-enough!
Yes, to hear Sam say what he did was quite jarring, but all he is saying is “when it’s your time to go, go.” Maybe Sam is tired and doesn’t see the point anymore. Whatever the reason I think Sam is angry about anyone doing anything to him-enough!
As another Sam girl, I agree that Dean is not evil nor selfish in general. He’s quite the opposite in fact.
But am I the only one who thinks that Dean is selfish when it comes to Sam? I know why, and I understand how messed up their childhood was, but Dean putting an angel into Sam even though he knew that Sam would never want that was selfish, no? I mean, Dean did what he wanted, not what Sam wanted, and now he seems oblivious to the hurt he caused and he’d do it again because it’s not in him to let Sam go. Why not call a spade a spade? Sam’s been selfish as well in the past. They’re not perfect.
As another Sam girl, I agree that Dean is not evil nor selfish in general. He’s quite the opposite in fact.
But am I the only one who thinks that Dean is selfish when it comes to Sam? I know why, and I understand how messed up their childhood was, but Dean putting an angel into Sam even though he knew that Sam would never want that was selfish, no? I mean, Dean did what he wanted, not what Sam wanted, and now he seems oblivious to the hurt he caused and he’d do it again because it’s not in him to let Sam go. Why not call a spade a spade? Sam’s been selfish as well in the past. They’re not perfect.
[quote name=”JuliaG”]As another Sam girl, I agree that Dean is not evil nor selfish in general. He’s quite the opposite in fact.
But am I the only one who thinks that Dean is selfish when it comes to Sam? I know why, and I understand how messed up their childhood was, but Dean putting an angel into Sam even though he knew that Sam would never want that was selfish, no? I mean, Dean did what he wanted, not what Sam wanted, and now he seems oblivious to the hurt he caused and he’d do it again because it’s not in him to let Sam go. Why not call a spade a spade? Sam’s been selfish as well in the past. They’re not perfect.[/quote]
No I agree when it come’s to Sam , Dean is selfish but apparently that is acceptable to alot of the fandom and therefore every action regardless of how disturbing it is is seen has been done out of love and because as Dean said himself it is not in him to let Sam die.
And of course now rather than the original violation being at the centre of what is going on between them it has now shifted onto Sam’s words and his apparent being unfair and too harsh to his brother.
[quote]As another Sam girl, I agree that Dean is not evil nor selfish in general. He’s quite the opposite in fact.
But am I the only one who thinks that Dean is selfish when it comes to Sam? I know why, and I understand how messed up their childhood was, but Dean putting an angel into Sam even though he knew that Sam would never want that was selfish, no? I mean, Dean did what he wanted, not what Sam wanted, and now he seems oblivious to the hurt he caused and he’d do it again because it’s not in him to let Sam go. Why not call a spade a spade? Sam’s been selfish as well in the past. They’re not perfect.[/quote]
No I agree when it come’s to Sam , Dean is selfish but apparently that is acceptable to alot of the fandom and therefore every action regardless of how disturbing it is is seen has been done out of love and because as Dean said himself it is not in him to let Sam die.
And of course now rather than the original violation being at the centre of what is going on between them it has now shifted onto Sam’s words and his apparent being unfair and too harsh to his brother.
Dean can BE selfish for sure, but so can everyone I’ve ever met đ But I wouldn’t generally call him selfish. That’s what I meant.
Dean can BE selfish for sure, but so can everyone I’ve ever met đ But I wouldn’t generally call him selfish. That’s what I meant.
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”][quote name=”Sasha”]
i agree manzita, sam is in fact referring to the current situation only. he in no way is eradicating a lifetime of good and sacrifice dean has done for the world or for sam either. sam is well aware of what dean has sacrificed for him in terms of always being there. he has acknowledged and thanked dean for that on more than one occasion. this is about dean tricking him into possession, taking away his right to make his own decisions and lying. had dean owned up sooner, sam may have understood. he would’ve been pissed but he may have been able to sympathize instantly as so many feel sam has to. but dean lied for a long time and kevin is dead by sam’s hands..this sam can’t just wash clean from his mind. again, as he sees it, someone he loves is dead because of him…like mom, jessica, and dean.
not for nothing but as i recall from southern comfort dean told sam that: ever since he got in his ride it was to deceive him and benny was more of a brother than he ever was…both harsh statements that was referring to a lifetime with sam. i dont’ recall an apology or sympathy. i never bought into his convenient amnesia either. sam was possessed by a specter and remembered all he said and apologized for it. dean made like he didn’t know what he said but i never believed him especially after his speech in sacrifice. he told sam specifically: look sam i know i said some junk that set you back on your heels. said being the operative word. the only thing that dean said to sam in s8 that would’ve knocked him on his heels was what he said in sc. it was truly the harshest words that came out of dean’s mouth last season. he didn’t say he did some junk…which would’ve been the text. so sorry, but imo, given dean’s words in sacrifice, i personally don’t believe he’d forgotten anything he said to sam in sc. but dean was possessed so it was all ok. those feelings were there though. but again, it’s a case where dean gets a pass. i never gave dean a pass on that.
that’s the past …this is the now. point is that sam’s words are based on what just happened. these are words dean needs to hear. sam is hurt and angry right now, but i also believe he’s freaked out too. his look of weariness and sadness that dean would readily do what he did again, consequences be damned….not good. not good at all. dean doesn’t need sympathy, he needs an intervention. sam’s words may be hard for dean to hear right now, but they are valid. dean needs to ask why would sam think that ? he might not be able to right now, but as long as sam behaves like the rock hammer chipping away at dean (who is the rock), then hopefully dean will finally open up to sam about why he goes to such extremes and they can work through it. acknowledge, deal with and change which will lead to a stronger brotherly bond as much as the boys seeing that they both have worth.
[quote][quote]
i agree manzita, sam is in fact referring to the current situation only. he in no way is eradicating a lifetime of good and sacrifice dean has done for the world or for sam either. sam is well aware of what dean has sacrificed for him in terms of always being there. he has acknowledged and thanked dean for that on more than one occasion. this is about dean tricking him into possession, taking away his right to make his own decisions and lying. had dean owned up sooner, sam may have understood. he would’ve been pissed but he may have been able to sympathize instantly as so many feel sam has to. but dean lied for a long time and kevin is dead by sam’s hands..this sam can’t just wash clean from his mind. again, as he sees it, someone he loves is dead because of him…like mom, jessica, and dean.
not for nothing but as i recall from southern comfort dean told sam that: ever since he got in his ride it was to deceive him and benny was more of a brother than he ever was…both harsh statements that was referring to a lifetime with sam. i dont’ recall an apology or sympathy. i never bought into his convenient amnesia either. sam was possessed by a specter and remembered all he said and apologized for it. dean made like he didn’t know what he said but i never believed him especially after his speech in sacrifice. he told sam specifically: look sam i know i said some junk that set you back on your heels. said being the operative word. the only thing that dean said to sam in s8 that would’ve knocked him on his heels was what he said in sc. it was truly the harshest words that came out of dean’s mouth last season. he didn’t say he did some junk…which would’ve been the text. so sorry, but imo, given dean’s words in sacrifice, i personally don’t believe he’d forgotten anything he said to sam in sc. but dean was possessed so it was all ok. those feelings were there though. but again, it’s a case where dean gets a pass. i never gave dean a pass on that.
that’s the past …this is the now. point is that sam’s words are based on what just happened. these are words dean needs to hear. sam is hurt and angry right now, but i also believe he’s freaked out too. his look of weariness and sadness that dean would readily do what he did again, consequences be damned….not good. not good at all. dean doesn’t need sympathy, he needs an intervention. sam’s words may be hard for dean to hear right now, but they are valid. dean needs to ask why would sam think that ? he might not be able to right now, but as long as sam behaves like the rock hammer chipping away at dean (who is the rock), then hopefully dean will finally open up to sam about why he goes to such extremes and they can work through it. acknowledge, deal with and change which will lead to a stronger brotherly bond as much as the boys seeing that they both have worth.
Both Sam and Dean interpret the world through different eyes as each has experienced their life together a bit differently. This is not a new theme in the series. What is new is Sam not turning toward the outside in the Impala and not discussing his feelings. Dean remains constant as well. Each character is being fleshed out a bit more b/c of the possession decision. Not bashing either character just waiting to see how and where the current feelings on the surface lead us within the larger arc. Metatron’s heaven is still out there with his # 2. On this issue the brothers are focused although Sam is on the Gadreel path and Dean is on the Abaddon path so they really do have slightly different missions. Sam’s words are supposed to hit us in the gut so we can experience Dean’s hurt as well as Sam’s true feelings. It’s good writing and character expansion. Rather than taking any character’s side, I say play on.
Both Sam and Dean interpret the world through different eyes as each has experienced their life together a bit differently. This is not a new theme in the series. What is new is Sam not turning toward the outside in the Impala and not discussing his feelings. Dean remains constant as well. Each character is being fleshed out a bit more b/c of the possession decision. Not bashing either character just waiting to see how and where the current feelings on the surface lead us within the larger arc. Metatron’s heaven is still out there with his # 2. On this issue the brothers are focused although Sam is on the Gadreel path and Dean is on the Abaddon path so they really do have slightly different missions. Sam’s words are supposed to hit us in the gut so we can experience Dean’s hurt as well as Sam’s true feelings. It’s good writing and character expansion. Rather than taking any character’s side, I say play on.
debbab Thank you I am a firm believer that we are supposed to root for both of these guys to prevail. We know they are going to come together to fight the good fight. I am really interested in the MOC story for Dean. We know they are going to reconcile and can’t wait to see that happen (as in there had better be hugs). đ
debbab Thank you I am a firm believer that we are supposed to root for both of these guys to prevail. We know they are going to come together to fight the good fight. I am really interested in the MOC story for Dean. We know they are going to reconcile and can’t wait to see that happen (as in there had better be hugs). đ
[b]Yay Robin! [/b]Call me a Sam girl, even though for me it’s Jensen that knocks it out of the park week after week.
What makes this show work for me is still the bond, and though recently broken has always remained intact, contradictory I know but even separated the guys seemed down-and-out which only happens when there’s still something there to miss.
I hail from the Midwest too so I adore their bond, their classic car, and their rockin’ tunes. I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
(NOTE TO THE WRITERS: Please give Jared enough lines so he doesn’t have to be so cryptic all the time, because while possibly making the dialogue more interesting it might curb all this character bashing of which I know you’re got to be aware. I also want to thank you for ending the ‘Dean is being a moron’ undercurrent of every episode between ‘Bad Boys’ and ‘Sharp Teeth!’)
[b]Yay Robin! [/b]Call me a Sam girl, even though for me it’s Jensen that knocks it out of the park week after week.
What makes this show work for me is still the bond, and though recently broken has always remained intact, contradictory I know but even separated the guys seemed down-and-out which only happens when there’s still something there to miss.
I hail from the Midwest too so I adore their bond, their classic car, and their rockin’ tunes. I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
(NOTE TO THE WRITERS: Please give Jared enough lines so he doesn’t have to be so cryptic all the time, because while possibly making the dialogue more interesting it might curb all this character bashing of which I know you’re got to be aware. I also want to thank you for ending the ‘Dean is being a moron’ undercurrent of every episode between ‘Bad Boys’ and ‘Sharp Teeth!’)
Nappi, in SC neither of the victims remember what happened to them, so why Dean have to do it? and I didn’t see anyone to explain to Dean what he said. So his apologies would have been very empty.
Frankly, they have put Sam in a situation where he couldn’t win. If he save Dean bad and if he didn’t, like a said months ago, worse.
Nappi, in SC neither of the victims remember what happened to them, so why Dean have to do it? and I didn’t see anyone to explain to Dean what he said. So his apologies would have been very empty.
Frankly, they have put Sam in a situation where he couldn’t win. If he save Dean bad and if he didn’t, like a said months ago, worse.
…After watching “Captives” I’m less annoyed with the recent Sam-slamming. What a dick move to promise Kevin to quit fighting and then immediately walk away from Dean the moment the poor kid’s ghost is out the door! … There was so much promise in the first 3 minutes where Dean yells for him and he immediately comes to check on his big brother! WHAT HAPPENED?!
…After watching “Captives” I’m less annoyed with the recent Sam-slamming. What a dick move to promise Kevin to quit fighting and then immediately walk away from Dean the moment the poor kid’s ghost is out the door! … There was so much promise in the first 3 minutes where Dean yells for him and he immediately comes to check on his big brother! WHAT HAPPENED?!
[quote name=”Puck”]…After watching “Captives” I’m less annoyed with the recent Sam-slamming. What a dick move to promise Kevin to quit fighting and then immediately walk away from Dean the moment the poor kid’s ghost is out the door! … There was so much promise in the first 3 minutes where Dean yells for him and he immediately comes to check on his big brother! WHAT HAPPENED?![/quote]
Being told by a boy who has no idea what Sam has been through in his life to get over being ‘mind raped by a angel ‘ and his body used beyond his control was not really going to happen was it.
[quote]…After watching “Captives” I’m less annoyed with the recent Sam-slamming. What a dick move to promise Kevin to quit fighting and then immediately walk away from Dean the moment the poor kid’s ghost is out the door! … There was so much promise in the first 3 minutes where Dean yells for him and he immediately comes to check on his big brother! WHAT HAPPENED?![/quote]
Being told by a boy who has no idea what Sam has been through in his life to get over being ‘mind raped by a angel ‘ and his body used beyond his control was not really going to happen was it.
I really can’t understand why Sam has to be over it just because that is what Dean wants. Dean wants Sam to forgive him so he can get past his own guilt. Sam is going to have a hard time with forgiveness if Dean has vowed that he would do the same thing again. As long as Sam is alive Dean doesn’t care what the price is, even Kevin’s death. That is the issue for Sam that needs to be resolved before there is reconciliation. Dean needs to come to understand Sam’s POV in this equation. Sam already knows why Dean did what he did. He said that it was because Dean couldn’t be alone but Sam also knows it is because Dean loves his brother so fiercely he can’t ever give up. Sam doesn’t feel his life was worth Kevin’s death. This episode really hammered on Sam’s guilt, having to face Mrs. Tran, tell her that Kevin was dead, finding out that Kevin wasn’t even in heaven but was trapped in a horrible limbo. Sam is dealing with his own guilt over killing Kevin. Just because Kevin told Sam that he knew it wasn’t Sam that killed him doesn’t wipe away the guilt. And yes Sharon Kevin has no idea what Sam has been through with possession. If this was resolved in this episode because Kevin told them to get over it I would have felt that the first half of the season was a pointless waist of time. This was a long set up, it is not going to have an easy fix. At least I hope not,
I really can’t understand why Sam has to be over it just because that is what Dean wants. Dean wants Sam to forgive him so he can get past his own guilt. Sam is going to have a hard time with forgiveness if Dean has vowed that he would do the same thing again. As long as Sam is alive Dean doesn’t care what the price is, even Kevin’s death. That is the issue for Sam that needs to be resolved before there is reconciliation. Dean needs to come to understand Sam’s POV in this equation. Sam already knows why Dean did what he did. He said that it was because Dean couldn’t be alone but Sam also knows it is because Dean loves his brother so fiercely he can’t ever give up. Sam doesn’t feel his life was worth Kevin’s death. This episode really hammered on Sam’s guilt, having to face Mrs. Tran, tell her that Kevin was dead, finding out that Kevin wasn’t even in heaven but was trapped in a horrible limbo. Sam is dealing with his own guilt over killing Kevin. Just because Kevin told Sam that he knew it wasn’t Sam that killed him doesn’t wipe away the guilt. And yes Sharon Kevin has no idea what Sam has been through with possession. If this was resolved in this episode because Kevin told them to get over it I would have felt that the first half of the season was a pointless waist of time. This was a long set up, it is not going to have an easy fix. At least I hope not,
And Chuck help me if Sam apologizes to Dean and tells him he was right I will starting throwing things, like heavy things. (Insert frowny face)
And Chuck help me if Sam apologizes to Dean and tells him he was right I will starting throwing things, like heavy things. (Insert frowny face)
[quote name=”cheryl42″]I really can’t understand why Sam has to be over it just because that is what Dean wants. Dean wants Sam to forgive him so he can get past his own guilt. Sam is going to have a hard time with forgiveness if Dean has vowed that he would do the same thing again. As long as Sam is alive Dean doesn’t care what the price is, even Kevin’s death. That is the issue for Sam that needs to be resolved before there is reconciliation. Dean needs to come to understand Sam’s POV in this equation. Sam already knows why Dean did what he did. He said that it was because Dean couldn’t be alone but Sam also knows it is because Dean loves his brother so fiercely he can’t ever give up. Sam doesn’t feel his life was worth Kevin’s death. This episode really hammered on Sam’s guilt, having to face Mrs. Tran, tell her that Kevin was dead, finding out that Kevin wasn’t even in heaven but was trapped in a horrible limbo. Sam is dealing with his own guilt over killing Kevin. Just because Kevin told Sam that he knew it wasn’t Sam that killed him doesn’t wipe away the guilt. And yes Sharon Kevin has no idea what Sam has been through with possession. If this was resolved in this episode because Kevin told them to get over it I would have felt that the first half of the season was a pointless waist of time. This was a long set up, it is not going to have an easy fix. At least I hope not,[/quote]
Excellent point, Cheryl42. Like I said in my review of this ep, this breach between the brothers is a big one, and Kevin telling them to “get over it” should not be enough to smooth things over. The trust issue is still a problem, the fact that Dean insists he would do the same thing under the same circumstances–Sam should NOT knuckle under! Dean needs to understand what Sam wants from him, and swear to do what’s right in the future. Love, Robin
[quote]I really can’t understand why Sam has to be over it just because that is what Dean wants. Dean wants Sam to forgive him so he can get past his own guilt. Sam is going to have a hard time with forgiveness if Dean has vowed that he would do the same thing again. As long as Sam is alive Dean doesn’t care what the price is, even Kevin’s death. That is the issue for Sam that needs to be resolved before there is reconciliation. Dean needs to come to understand Sam’s POV in this equation. Sam already knows why Dean did what he did. He said that it was because Dean couldn’t be alone but Sam also knows it is because Dean loves his brother so fiercely he can’t ever give up. Sam doesn’t feel his life was worth Kevin’s death. This episode really hammered on Sam’s guilt, having to face Mrs. Tran, tell her that Kevin was dead, finding out that Kevin wasn’t even in heaven but was trapped in a horrible limbo. Sam is dealing with his own guilt over killing Kevin. Just because Kevin told Sam that he knew it wasn’t Sam that killed him doesn’t wipe away the guilt. And yes Sharon Kevin has no idea what Sam has been through with possession. If this was resolved in this episode because Kevin told them to get over it I would have felt that the first half of the season was a pointless waist of time. This was a long set up, it is not going to have an easy fix. At least I hope not,[/quote]
Excellent point, Cheryl42. Like I said in my review of this ep, this breach between the brothers is a big one, and Kevin telling them to “get over it” should not be enough to smooth things over. The trust issue is still a problem, the fact that Dean insists he would do the same thing under the same circumstances–Sam should NOT knuckle under! Dean needs to understand what Sam wants from him, and swear to do what’s right in the future. Love, Robin
TBH, Kevin doesn’t even know how the angel possession came about. I doubt he would have been so forgiving of Dean had he known what a dick move Dean made.
Forgiving Sam I can understand as he knew that it was Gad who killed him.
I’m with you, cheryl42. In no way should Sam apologize, he was the one who was wronged. Dean needs to apologize as he is the one who was in the wrong.
TBH, Kevin doesn’t even know how the angel possession came about. I doubt he would have been so forgiving of Dean had he known what a dick move Dean made.
Forgiving Sam I can understand as he knew that it was Gad who killed him.
I’m with you, cheryl42. In no way should Sam apologize, he was the one who was wronged. Dean needs to apologize as he is the one who was in the wrong.
[quote name=”Jo1027″]TBH, Kevin doesn’t even know how the angel possession came about. [/quote]
Hmm. I don’t know about that, Jo1027. I think all is revealed in death. I can’t be sure exactly how he said it, but I think Kevin mentioned knowing more now that he is in the veil. Plus, even if he didn’t know just because he’s dead, I’m pretty sure he knows because he’s been watching and listening to them since he died while trying to figure out how to make contact.
[quote]TBH, Kevin doesn’t even know how the angel possession came about. [/quote]
Hmm. I don’t know about that, Jo1027. I think all is revealed in death. I can’t be sure exactly how he said it, but I think Kevin mentioned knowing more now that he is in the veil. Plus, even if he didn’t know just because he’s dead, I’m pretty sure he knows because he’s been watching and listening to them since he died while trying to figure out how to make contact.
#70digyd IDK since the guys haven’t really been talking to each other I don’t know how much Kevin could have heard. đ
#70digyd IDK since the guys haven’t really been talking to each other I don’t know how much Kevin could have heard. đ
I think that kitchen scene, with Dean saying Sam would do the same thing and Sam saying no, would tell pretty much the whole story, cheryl42. But I’m also of the belief that with death comes at least some – not necessarily complete – knowledge.
Oh and I almost forgot Sam and Cas had their talk too, so there’s that.
I think that kitchen scene, with Dean saying Sam would do the same thing and Sam saying no, would tell pretty much the whole story, cheryl42. But I’m also of the belief that with death comes at least some – not necessarily complete – knowledge.
Oh and I almost forgot Sam and Cas had their talk too, so there’s that.
Iâm a bit gobsmacked myself that the argument over Samâs behaviour, or Deanâs behaviour is so contentious. The characters arenât the ones controlling their behaviour, after all, itâs the writers who put the words in their mouths and create their actions and there is no need for anyone to rationalise or justify the characterâs behaviour when the fault, whatever it is, clearly lies at the writerâs feet.
Sam and Dean, in Season 1, were clearly written and each had their own strengths and their own weaknesses, both of which were sensitively and compassionately revealed as the story progressed. As an infant, Sam was cursed with demon blood, which was activated when he reached a certain age. For his part, Dean could have been said to be cursed as well, by his motherâs deal with a demon. The fact was that Maryâs deal enabled John Winchester to have a family and Dean and Sam to be born and grow up, and we found out much later how deep the conspiracy between Heaven and Hell over the joining of the Winchester and Campbell lines went in order to produce the two men who were suitable to break the First and Last Seals of Luciferâs cage.
It wasnât Samâs fault â or Deanâs â that their childhoods were fraught with danger, that their father struggled to protect them at the same time as he tried to find out what lay in the future for his sons and train them to protect themselves. An objective look at the story shows all three Winchester men locked into destinies that were to test each of them in matters of strength, of morality and ethics and principles and find, as with most heroic characters, that all three had weaknesses that were as much a part of them as their strengths.
This was the story that drew us all into the show, right? The struggle against evil, the desperate attempts to remain united when the powers of Heaven and Hell were trying to divide them and weaken them?
Thereâs a saying, that a good novel tells the truth about its hero, whereas a bad novel tells the truth about its author ⌠and I think we can probably agree which kind of novel weâve been âwatchingâ over the last two-three years.
Over the course of Season 5, Sam and Dean went through a maturation process. Sam tried to apologise over and over to Dean for choosing Ruby and the demon blood over his brother. Dean didnât want to hear it at the time and they split up and went their separate ways for a short period, until Heaven decided that enough was enough. Sam learned that giving up and attempting to bail on the life heâd grown up in was a futile wish. He could run from the monsters, from the life, but not from himself. Dean learned that setting aside the burden of responsibility for protecting his brother was a relief, that he was clearer, happier, hunting on his own without worrying about what was happening to Sam or what his father had told him Sam might become. But over that time, both of them realised that even though each was a weakness for the other, they were, ultimately stronger together. Sam stood up for himself and insisted that they work as equals and Dean apologised for not listening to Sam and treating him as if he were a time-bomb about to go off. They were up and down, doubts and fears manifesting in different ways throughout that season, but they were completely themselves, core characters and growing and developing. Sam chose to take Lucifer down in order to atone for everything and put an end to the danger to the world. Dean understood that it was his brotherâs choice, and no one else could choose for him. They were grown men.
Kripke had planned first for the story to end after 3 seasons. Then after 5. When the show was extended, he left. And the guiding vision, both of the story and the characters, went with him.
The writers we have currently and for the last season have not put the same effort into learning about the characters that most of the older fans have. Or the history. Or the events that changed and drove and developed those characters to the end of Season 5. The writers have attempted to create misunderstandings, angst and division between the brothers because they believe that the fans prefer to see the brothers fighting and making up rather than working together as a team to solve the problems that theyâre facing. In the earlier seasons, of course, it worked to heighten tension and drama almost continually, but there was a reason for the division between them â the hiding of the demon blood by Sam, the hiding of Deanâs suspicions, the constant pressures of the things they still had to do which meant they HAD to work together to finish the job. In Season 8, there was little that needed to be hidden. Dean was hiding his friendship with Benny, although given that Sam had been Lenoreâs advocate, it was unclear as to why Sam would suddenly feel antipathy for a vampire who was trying to do the right thing â or why Dean would believe that. Sam was given a ânormalâ life that was wrecked by the return of Ameliaâs husband â was he just pissed in general at that situation? Why was he so angry at Dean? The writers didnât know how to create a situation that was justifiably and rationally going to put the brothers at odds, so they forced a situation that wasnât justified according to what we already knew of the characters in order to force the drama. Which never works. What it presented as was an irrational decision on Deanâs part to try and hide what had happened in Purgatory and an even more irrational reaction from Sam on his normal life being interrupted. Dean didnât interrupt the life, Ameliaâs husband did, but Dean was put into the firing line [i]BY THE WRITERS[/i].
You can see where a good writer (and show runner, responsible for the overall story of the season) would first research the characters as thoroughly as possible to understand them and then have the charactersâ needs drive a situation that becomes loaded with tension.
In any case, my point is simply that Sam and Dean have no say in what the writers have chosen to do to them and with them over the last 2 years. When the fans attempt to rationalise behaviour of the characters and not put the onus on the writing, they are feeding into the writerâs delusions of their own characterisation of the showâs leads. Sam is ethical and Dean is moral. There is a difference between the two. Samâs ethics are what drives his compassion and he thinks through situations (or at least, he used to, in the last two seasons, very few of the writing team have gotten that right either). Dean has no ethics but his moral code â of right and wrong â is extremely strong and until getting out of Purgatory, and attempting to use any means to justify the end, he had always argued about the right way to do something and the right thing to do. Now, of course, both have been distorted, along with their relationship, which had reached a point of understanding and respect for each other, but which has been shredded back to mid-season 4 confusion.
Has anyone noticed that the brothers used to talk to each other all the time in S1-4, less in S5-7 and not at all pretty much in S8-9. That too is not something the characters are driving but the writers. They appear to be incapable of conflict resolution on any level, preferring to just drop the issue rather than have the characters sit down and get it out into the open. They choose melodramatic scenes of hissy fits and shouting at each other, instead of following the way the brothers always used to deal with exceptional conflict, which was to talk it through. Even Deanâs heart-felt plea at the end of Sacrifice didnât address the problems that the season had raised.
Dean and Sam are brothers. They grew up in an extraordinary childhood, and had to rely on each other through thick and thin. They are also ordinary siblings who know each otherâs buttons and push them occasionally as normal siblings do. They have both been through horrific events, terrible sacrifices and have both seen the worst of each other and of themselves.
Letâs look for a moment at Samâs telling Dean that he shouldâve died. He actually said ⌠âI was ready to die. I was ready. I should have died.â Now, on a careful viewing of the first 3 episodes of the season, it becomes appallingly apparent that Sam was unconscious and had no memories of his coma-induced self-arguments and it was never shown that he remembered those things. His memories werenât brought back magically and were never referred to. Samâs last conscious thought was that he wanted to live. He stopped the trials in order to live. So, telling Dean that heâd wanted to die was clearly a writer error. The writer did not go back and check that detail, just assumed because he âsawâ Sam talking it over, that he must have retained the knowledge once Gadreel had vacated his body. Unfortunately, that kind of error has then created a furore of rationalisation on the part of the fans that Dean somehow knew that Sam wanted to die and deliberately stopped it.
âWe don’t…see things the same way anymore — our roles in this whole thing. [b]Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up hell?[/b] Or — or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? I can’t trust you — not the way I thought I could, not the way I should be able to.â [i][From the transcript of Sharp Teeth, SuperWiki][/i]
The writer believed that Dean talking Sam out of boarding up Hell was something Dean had done in an underhand way. For those who watched Sacrifice carefully, Samâs agreeing to stopping â and living â were clear. The errors in the canon like this cause contrived conflict between the brothers, instead of following the story and the characters and writing them logically.
The real problems with the writers pushing their own agendas onto the characters, be it that hunting is a horrible life, or that Dean should be hugging more, or that Sam âremembersâ something he didnât have a conscious memory of, is that theyâre changing the characters to suit themselves, instead of growing the characters as their core personalities dictate. Just because I might decide, in a story, to have Dean decide that he likes the music of Britney Spears, doesnât make it true to the character. So much of what has been missing in the last two seasons has been the truth of the characters. In Southern Comfort, with Garthâs speech about Bobby, for example, Dean sat there and said nothing. The fact that in the previous seasons, we all watched the relationship between the brothers and Bobby, and saw that Bobby had been a big part of their childhood, had taken a knife into himself rather than turn it on Dean â not only was it out of character for Dean to sit quietly and listen to Garthâs rant, but it was factually incorrect that âBobby belonged to everyoneâ in this instance. How can anyone trust a writer who doesnât know such a basic part of the Winchester background? Or who believes that Dean would sit still being scolded by Garth when the truth was different? The character knows the truth, even if the writer doesnât.
There are a lot of examples of writer ineptitude but letâs not blame the characters. Letâs put the blame for the peculiar characterisations and the non-existent storylines squarely where they belong?
Post moved from the season 10 discussion Discussion ([url]”https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/archive-articles/135-season-ten/18747-let-s-speculate-supernatural-s10-demon-dean#!kmt-start=40″[/url]). This seems like a good place to put it (also I got bored đ ) since the stuff that was laid on Sam most of the way through Season 4 and beginning of Season 5 puts what Sam said to Dean in season 9 into some perspective.
[quote]Leah:
The voicemail is something I never worried about much after the fact. I am not sure why but I just assumed that Sam, at the first opportunity, said something like “Dude, what was up with the s***** voicemail?” and it got straightened out. I can’t imagine Sam would have just let that go. Anyway that was what some dusty corner of my brain did to resolve that voicemail scene. It would have been so much better had the show devoted a few seconds to it!:)[/quote]
Hi Leah, the way I see the first half of Season 5 there is no way Sam could possibly have doubted the truth of the doctored message. Why would he? Why would he even question it? Sam always accepts all of whatever blame is being thrown at him and it is infuriating at this stage how he never questions it no matter how unreasonable it is.
Deans message was “Listen to me, you bloodsucking freak. Dad always said I’d either have to save you or kill you. Well, I’m giving you fair warning. I’m done trying to save you. You’re a monster, Sam — a vampire. You’re not you anymore. And there’s no going back.”
That is Dean’s belief about monsters (we know it isn’t really Dean’s belief about Sam since that message is not true), the entire season (4) has been geared towards making Sam believe he is a monster, hence (in Sam’s mind) this is Dean’s belief about Sam.
The immediate prequel to the phone message was a John Winchester-style ultimatum from Dean about not coming back if Sam walks away.
The immediate aftermath of the phone message went:
Lucifer rises from hell, turns out that’s all on Sam and nobody else (no angels or demons to see here, nope).
Bobby told him he was no longer his ‘son’. How could he be related to Bobby if he is not human? (Turned out wasn’t Bobby) (5.1)
Dean told him he could probably never trust him again (5.1) – people can be trusted, brothers, not monsters. Sam has never felt since that Dean trusts him (see Season 8) because he is a monster? Probably, why else wouldn’t Dean trust him when he has always had his (Dean’s) back?
Dean and Sam agreed that Sam couldn’t be trusted because he was tempted by demon blood (but didn’t actually drink it) back to the Sam is a monster and monsters always give in to their monster urges, just a matter of time (metamorphosis) (this reinforces the doctored message). (5.2)
Sam asked to be let back in because otherwise he was going to have trouble fighting off Lucifer on his own (5.3)
Dean told Sam no, he could sort out his own problems, that they needed to pick separate hemispheres. (5.3) (frankly to Sam this must have looked like ‘Saving PEOPLE, hunting THINGS, you are no longer in the former category, Sam.)
By the time the boys got back together Sam was almost convinced that Dean was going to kill him with the demon knife.(5.4) (so Sam feels he is in the latter category)
…
I don’t see how Sam could have believed that there was any possibility the original message wasn’t 100% correct.
Considering Season 8, especially the revelation in Sacrifice, etc it seems clear to me that Sam has been trying to atone for the blame in the doctored phone message for 4 years.
The boys understanding of the phone message is actually infinitely more important than the amulet for their emotional wellbeing.
Just my opinion though.
I agree with your post on both threads. đ The show has a history of dropping WTF storylines so I am not going to hold my breath for a resolution to that awful message or the fact that Cas let Sam out of the panic room or the anemic admission that Sam didn’t know that Lilith was the final seal and thought that he was doing the right thing. I guess I will have to file that under Ed Wood “Cut! Movin’ on”.
You need to add, with a sigh, there: ‘Season. 10.’ :p
I would like the show to completely forget about canon. Altogether. 100%. make every episode a new story. With the clear understanding that they are no longer allowed introduce characters solely to blame Sam for ancient history / make fun of Sam’s dead girlfriends / rewrite Season 5 (yeah i am looking at you Mr Thompson). Nor are they allowed to write any more childhood stories (since there is no longer canon).
In exchange I will personally promise never to mention amulets or phonecalls ever again.
I think this is a very fair proposal đ đ
Maybe it’s a weird comparison, but it reminds me a bit of the conversation Harry has with Dumbledore in Deathly Hallows. Dumbledore explains that being the master of death is not about conquering death, but accepting it. I think Sam understands that a bit better than Dean, the ‘what is dead should stay dead’ conversation they had in one of the early seasons.
I completely agree that Sam deserves a break. I read an about Sam’s character a while ago that I think explains very well why Sam acts the way he does. Whenever Dean has emotional trauma Sam tries to help him with it, by trying to get him to open up and be there for him. But Sam has never had that support. When he has to live for months without Dean his emotional trauma is hardly mentioned, he gets blamed for following Ruby, letting Lucifer out his cage and when he himself returns from the cage, it’s as if everybody is just ignoring his trauma and expecting him to just be okay. He mentions in season 7 that he doesn’t want to bother Dean with his problems, because Dean already has enough problems of his own. So he tries to be strong for Dean and do what he thinks is best. I don’t mean to bash Dean with this, he shows his strength by keeping Sam safe no matter what the cost. But I think that on an emotional level Sam is more alone. Sam rarely gets to explain or justify his actions, he is just expected to deal with it. I don’t think he really has anyone to open up to, so he bottles it up and tries to stay strong. Couple that with his lifelong desire to be normal and fit in, I can understand why he makes the decisions he makes. I agree with other comments here that Sam and Dean love each other unconditionally and will always forgive each other, and most of their fights could be prevented if they opened up to each other and understood each other.