Let’s Discuss: The Supernatural Season Ten Bitterness Thread
We’re almost halfway through season ten and one thing is pretty clear, some fans are happy, some fans are disappointed, and some fans are sticking pins right now in their very own Jeremy Carver voodoo dolls. The criticisms are various. There’s either too much time being spent on the angel storyline or not enough, Sam and Dean are getting too little airtime or just the right amount, and why was Mark Sheppard made a regular on the show when they’ve hardly used him at all? What happened to the year of the Deanmon? Why is Sam once again plotless, falling into the background as nothing more than some ultra pretty wallpaper? Why can’t this show write a decent plot for Castiel?
Well, if you’re frustrated, or happy for the most part but something that’s happening is just bugging the crap out of you that you must get out, this thread is designed to help you get all that off your chest. It’s a free form discussion, so if you have ideas to make it better, do share. Or if you’d like to bring up patterns through the seasons of total character neglect or just plain disregard to the boundaries of canon, share that too. Heck, you can even tell us if the cat is unhappy. We’ll listen.
Alright, now that the disclaimers out of the way, it’s time to let loose. I know you’ve been dying to say something. Let’s discuss!
Hi Alice and my fellow fans, I am posting a slightly long comment after some time.I have been thinking of commenting on the reviews ..but my problem is not with the episode themselves because i have loved all the stories told (bugs and the truck episode included..I loved bitten too). For me the problem lies to a larger extent with the way Sam is shown (The Sam thing has been a problem for some time)This brings down the episode to me and this season with the way they are telling Deans story.Dean is a character who I have stopped caring for quite some time now…but even I can say the mytharc he is given looks directionless.When Dean was given the mytharc it looks directionless and I am still waiting for Sam to have the same character focus that Dean had when Sam was one who was plot focused.
Some points i would like to make about Sam are after a long time seeing his character being short changed in turn us me as a sam fan.some others may share the same thoghts….
1) When Sam was driving the mytharc his character moments were kept at the end but by doing this and focusing on Dean and having Dean forming relations he was a part of the story in a big way.When there were Dean fans commenting here that they wanted Dean to have mytharc, I remember commenting that I too would like that but only if Sam gets Dean’s character arc and predominant other-character interaction.Now that Dean has the myth arc Sam still has not got the character focus and ends up being wall paper or even more horrible is him leaving the room so that Dean can have heart to heart while the reverse is not true.Dean leaving the room so that Sam can talk well this does not happen or maybe rarely.
2)Characters like Charlie,Frank were ones who could have had more interaction with Sam rather than Dean…I would have forgotten about this but recently we have a scene where we come to know that Sam interacted with Jody we were not even shown this…rather there are fans telling “oh how bad of Sam for not informing Jody”.
3) Sam being silent when Dean passes off his passive aggressive comments or outright blames Sam.I absolutely hate this. (personally it irks me more because I see the same thing happening in tvd and it is happening to both of my favourite characters the S’s of the brother pair.First Damon now Caro and enzo, and Stefan remains mostly silent especially with enzo)
4) Sam needs a car immediately .When Dean wants to travel hours to sleep with someone and lies to Sam about why, I do not want Sam tagging along.
5)Sam is the guest star (wall paper) in supernatural.
6) Stop referring to Sam’s fatal d*ck especially when the next breath you have the character praising Dean for saving the world.I felt sick when this dialogue happened.Even D J Qualls (forgot the character name) intro to his were GF about Sam was horrible.
7) Sam needs to be the one talking to the new intros asap.
There are other points I would like to make …..When I remember I will make them.
I, too, wanted Sam to have his own car after seeing 10.07 [i] Girls, Girls, Girls[/i]. I don’t like that because for me the brothers riding together in the Impala is classic [i] Supernatural[/i]. But maybe they need to separate the characters a bit so Sam would get re-energized as a main character. Besides, it seems to me that there are fans who want to see Dean work solo cases or hunt with Castiel et al.…
It annoys me that Sam is silenced even when Dean is clearly not being truthful.
[quote]it seems to me that there are fans who want to see Dean work solo cases or hunt with Castiel et al.…[/quote]But for me I want Sam to have a car in their down time ,
Honestly right now I cant see why Sam cant be off doing MOL cases weekly while Dean has the MOC stuff. They dont need to have the brothers together for Dean’s MOC storyline and it would allow Jared to not have to film every episode of the season so he can be with his kids more as he has expressed worry that he is away from them too much. Having Jared show up every week to set just to stand around and do nothing is just a pathetic waste of everyone’s time and completely unfair to Jared and his kids.
I believe Jared and Jensen are under contract to appear in every episode. Season nine was very difficult for Jensen so I doubt he’d be okay with Jared having even more time off.
I think that Dean became the main character of [i] Supernatural [/i] last season. The show balanced out at the start of this season but I think Sam is back to being more of a supporting character. At this point separating the brothers for a while (like when Sam was trying to find Dean) might be the only way for Sam to really become part of the show again.
I know Jensen was talking about how many more days Jared had off than Jensen himself did and he didn’t sound happy about it. I would like to think that the show will be more balanced about Sam and Dean, but I’m really not going to hold my breath.
It seems that viewers are getting less of [i] both [/i] of the Winchesters now. I hope that the actors aren’t after that kind of balance.
My view of how Sam is written whether it is this season or any other has not changed. The writers are entrenched in certain ideas about Sam and so is the fandom which is why Sam’s storytelling (and a use that word loosely) rarely changes. I do not believe the result of last seasons sl should of been ”go out and prove what a good brother’ you are Sam because you were not alright with what Dean did to you, by putting the onus on Sam then Dean never has to change or his behaviour towards Sam . The over sympathetic focus on Dean is no better than the under sympathetic focus on Sam and it cannot IMO genuinely create a brothers relationship that represents both brothers .I admit that my disgust of last season and how Sam was treated has not done this season any favours and I am still waiting for the show to give Sam a character that is sympathetic towards him who wants to know how Sam actually feels . Sam’s save of Dean with the blood did not even use the brothers so called deep bond to pull Dean back what Sam did with the blood anybody could of done , with Dean that bond has been used so that he could reach Sam which made those ‘saves’ have more emotional resonance. While Sam’s with Dean was more clinical than ‘brother’ bond’ which it should of been so I do look at the brothers relationship differently from others because Sam’s side is never valued or focused on unless he has to ‘prove’ himself after being violated.
Lately, my fantasy has been that Stephen Amell would guest star on [i] Supernatural[/i]. He would be required to play a character who is Sam’s friend! Pretty much all of the characters end up leaning toward Dean. Sam needs some guy friends, too. 😀 Maybe Stephen could play a hunter who Sam met while he was trying to find Dean.
9.08 [i] Rock and a Hard Place [/i] made me excited about the possibility of Sam and Jody developing a close friendship but 9.19 [i] Alex Annie Alexis Ann [/i] and 10.8 [i] Hibbing 911 [/i] were very disappointing. Jody and Sam do [i] not [/i] have such a great bond. Jody seems to have a whole other purpose on the show now so they need to bring in a new character who could connect with Sam.
I don’t want them to write 9.13 [i] The Purge [/i] off as Sam being a jerk, Sam lashing out or Sam lying. I think that some of the things Sam said to Dean touched on real issues. Dean tricked Sam into being possessed by an angel even though Dean thought that Sam would rather die than be possessed by anything and then Dean kept lying to Sam. Thus, I think Sam had a legitimate reason to say that Dean just didn’t want to be alone. I don’t think that aspect should be dismissed simply because Dean ended up being killed and Sam couldn’t accept it.
Cas reassures Dean that he’s awesome…. He’s a role model.
Cas reassures Sam that he’s screwed up just as often…. Sam’s not alone in being the worlds biggest F* up.
But hey, at least they’re talking! Right?
[quote]Cas reassures Dean that he’s awesome…. He’s a role model.
Cas reassures Sam that he’s screwed up just as often…. Sam’s not alone in being the worlds biggest F* up.
But hey, at least they’re talking! Right?[/quote]Agree so much that i was quoted the whole comment.
I love the picture for the bitterness thread. Dean does look pretty bitter there.
I hope someone in the writers room remembers these guys are supposed to be the best hunters on the planet (or universe) and quit letting the bad guys get the drop on them. No more knocking out, tying up with conveniently brand new rope and monologs by monsters. That is my Christmas wish.
[quote]I love the picture for the bitterness thread.[/quote]Me too.
Yeah…. especially when they are knocked out by featherweight hippie chicks who look like a stiff breeze could blow them over. Kate, her sister and hippie, vampire chick were the epitome of weak, frail non-threatening females. When the boys get taken out by one of them it just looks ludicrous. Jared is a foot taller and 100 pounds bigger than any of those actresses to begin with so him begin overwhelmed by them just does not read on screen AT ALL, even though they are supposed to have “monster powers”. Aren’t’ there any tough looking actresses out there any more? What about that woman who beat the crap out of Dean in The Kids Are Alright? She was a bad ass!
Which is why I loved Abaddon.
Yeah… she was a toughie and believable as someone who could realistically take on Sam and Dean.
I was actually pretty happy with the beginning of the season as far as Sam was concerned. I wasn’t really overwhelmed with Demon Dean, but I liked that Sam had a lot to do and was once again, a badass hunter. And I actually liked that Sam was in the middle of the action even after the 200th episode. But I was highly disappointed that they opted not to have a little more discussion about the things Dean said to Sam during the cure and the fact that he tried to F….. kill him with a hammer. Seriously, I get what Jensen was saying about how they say things to each other that hurt and they just move on, but damn, that was more than just “you have emo taste in music.” They dug up some underlying issues and then once again, just act like it never happened. I really hate that.
And I have to agree that Dean having the mytharc has not led to more Sam POV. I miss the days of having a Sam-centric episode. It feels like forever. He sometimes feels like a tool to tell Dean’s story and I hate feeling that way.
And as much as I love that the guys are on the same page and back together hunting things, the story has stalled, (until tonight I presume) and I’ve felt detached from Dean’s feelings. I’m not getting the way he’s being played at all. Maybe tonight will help, but he just seems as depressed as ever. He said thank you to Sam in the car and he talked about “We” time but I’m just not feeling it. I feel like if Sam decided that Dean trying to kill him was just too much and took off, Dean would just see it as another failure just keep on keeping on. I don’t know. I definitely like it more than season 9, but that’s about all I’ve got right now.
I certain join with the people who are disappointed that even though Dean finally gets the mytharc, Sam still is denied a strong POV. However, I have pretty much given up on the idea that Sam will ever get a strong, consistent POV or even get more than one or two lines a season where he talks about what he feels. I’m somewhat encouraged that, other than the very weak sauce of Sam telling Lester about making a deal, the writers haven’t immediately leaped to show us that Sam as a human was SO VERY MUCH WORSE than Dean as a demon, although they have come close, and I still think that the potential to dirty up Sam to make Dean look good is hanging over our heads. I basically am going to reserve judgement until the end of the season before I feel confident that Sam isn’t going to be trashed. They managed to make him the bad guy last season after Dean violated his body and never apologized, so I’m sure they can come up with ways to make Sam look bad while Dean carves his way through a thousand people.
What I am having trouble with is the continuing changes to canon, especially monster canon, that keep arising and without any real reason other than making the story look good. Hibbing 911 left me scratching my head with the vampire switch up. Yes, it’s a nice philosophical idea that they would be hippie vampires using all of the person they kill instead of just drinking the blood. but how does that work. Dead Man’s Blood incapacitates them. Do they eat the person while they are still alive? do they drain ALL the blood from the corpse so they can eat the meat without collapsing? Does the Dead Man’s Blood only kick in X number of hours after the person is dead? The episode with Kate left me scratching my head as well. Couldn’t they at least try to tell her about Garth and his family so she can get a support system to stay clean? I know these are nitpicky things, but they take me out of the story in a way.
[quote]I still think that the potential to dirty up Sam to make Dean look good is hanging over our heads.[/quote]agree
Not really bitter, more disappointed. I’ve lowered my expectations this season and, while the episodes haven’t been bad, still find things lacking. Certainly don’t mind a more character driven arc but, besides Dean, can’t see this in the other main characters on the show. Sam has been a more active participant this season but really doesn’t have much to do besides support his brother; this was similar to the problem in the second half of season 8, where Dean was Sam’s nursemaid. Anything questionable Sam may have done in looking for Dean, for the most part, was kept off screen, as was most of his reaction to the S9 angel possession; just a few lines as an afterthought in the last episode of S9.
Hate to say this but even Crowley has been boring so far. And Castiel’s story has gotten tiresome, though recent developments might change my opinion on this.
Dean – the Demon Dean story arc was both telegraphed too early in S9, then finished way too quickly in S10. If it came down to extending that arc vs. postponing the Fan Fiction episode so it wasn’t the 200th episode, I would have voted for postponing that episode a few weeks so the Demon Dean arc could have continued. That being said, It was disappointing the direction they chose to take with this. The happy-go-lucky, devil-may-care Demon Dean stands in harsh contrast to what I expected, particularly given Dean’s behavior during his previous stints in hell and purgatory. I don’t know who made this decision, but IMO this was a complete cop out. If you’re gonna go “all-in”, then go “all-in”.
Sam – I do think an effort is being made to keep him more involved and engaged in the story, but he doesn’t really have much to do, particularly with Dean having the primary mytharc in S10, as well as the story being told from his POV. Also had a difficult time reconciling the post-S7/early S8 Sam, then one that didn’t look for his brother (or, more inexcusable, looking out for Kevin), with the driven/devoted brother Sam we’re seeing at the start of S10. That journey was poorly written and conveyed, at least to me. The entire Sam/Amelia story would have been more interesting if were left wondering if this was a fantasy/delusion on Sam’s part, a coping mechanism to deal with the loss of his brother. Given what happened with Sam in S7, that would have made sense, at least to me. But, on the bright side, Sam is being written in a more consistent manner this season, and less as a plot device.
Castiel – the lessons learned from Hannah’s surprise decision to go home and leave her vessel might make for an interesting arc for Castiel. But, have to admit that the angels have gotten boring. Crowley was right – why don’t they just sit on clouds and play their harps 🙂
I said this in Alice’s recent review but will repeat it here – I think a lot of the issues are with the writing and show runners. Many of the writers are very good but have unique styles, and that hurts the overall flow and how the main characters, primarily Sam and Dean, are written from week to week. More effort used to be put in to the flow of the story from week to week, and how the brothers are portrayed. That’s not to say that I don’t enjoy the MOTW episodes, though. It’s just that they used to do a better job of tying together the overall story/mytharc. Even going back to Ben Edlund, he was certainly unique (and very talented), but wrote Sam and Dean in a manner that was consistent with the story and the other writers. Some of the writing of the brothers in S9 and S10 has been puzzling to say the least.
Finally, in regards to return characters; I like a lot of them; big fan of Sheriffs Jody and Donna, Charlie, and even Garth. But lately, at times their return seems to be more agenda driven. Need a strong woman character – let’s bring back Jody. Good – we can check that box off now. Need to bring back a smart woman who happens to also be a lesbian? Great – we can check off two boxes with this character. In earlier seasons, with Ellen, Jo, Mary Winchester and even S5 Sheriff Jody appearances, it wasn’t as much of a “Mary Sue”, nor was it done to paint Sam and/or Dean as idiot hunters. They were smart, well written, capable individuals who happened to be women.
One last thing to vent about – canon. This has become a big joke now; if you’re going to create this “world” of Supernatural, the least the writers and show runners can do is play by the set of rules and constructs that have been built over many seasons.
There, I feel better now 🙂
NJ- how was Deanmon telegraphed early in s9….
It most definitely ended to abruptly for the reasons
you stated.
Here is an article that makes me feel better.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/supernaturals-misha-collins-castiel-is-753785
In 9.11, First Born, when Cain said “…but you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.”. I took that as meaning that this would lead down a road where Dean would become a demon.
You are correct.
That was the only time I can remember,
if not, Why was everyone so
Screamingly Surprised….:o
i didn’t understand that, either. That was the least surprising season ending surprise in a long time.
Well Nolanola, all that article did was make me feel was worse. CAs is instrumental in getting rid of the MOC, and Sam is what? Tied to a chair or knocked out in the corner for the rest of the season, is my guess. Sorry. I’ve never wanted to be wrong so much in my life.
I’ve seen some behind the scene footage for I think this episode and Sam is doing some interesting stuff looks like on his own. So here’s holding my breath that something for Sam is going to happen in this episode to also set up his story for the second half.
I hope you are right that they are setting up something for Sam in the second half of the season, but I’m not going to hold my breath. The article Nola posted pretty much has a flashing sign saying “Sam is totally unimportant”.
I am trying to go with this was an interview with Misha and he was talking about his own character arc. It is interesting that no one has interviewed Jared in a long time though. Either it is a big surprise or…
I’m still holding on for something in the second half. I’m a glutton for punishment, I guess. I know I’ve lost my way when I was kind of hoping that Dean would be too far gone to realize Sam was there and stab him or something just to have Sam be part of the plot. Don’t hate me.
was tweeting with someone to that effect a few weeks ago – that would have made it interesting, if he killed, or tried to kill Sam. That way, at least Sam would have been unconscious for a good reason.
Maybe that’s where they’re going with this. Sam is going to have to let his brother kill him in order to get rid of the mark. I could actually get behind that story. Have Sam find out that Cain had to kill Abel and then he can transfer the mark or something along that line. So Sam sets ups scenario where he forces Dean into killing him to get rid of it. That would be exciting.
Sam allowing Dean to kill him isnt a storyline, that could happen in the last episode of the season without a Sam point of view or any involvement from Sam at all. How much does he have to take part in the storyline for Dean to run him through with a blade?
He appears to be working a case as usual so I wouldn’t get too excited. Also Jared has had quite a lot of time off,all the spoilers are indicating that we are in for a very heavy Dean centric second half of the season with the MOC stuff, which includes Cain, Charlie, scenes of Rowena/Dean, Crowley’s weird love of Dean and hate of Sam. Then we have Cas and his daughter, Cas saving Dean, angel stuff and then Dean and Cas time. I dont see there being enough time to fit anything for Sam in all that and it does seem that based on spoilers and behind the scenes stuff that there isnt anything coming up for Sam in the way of a storyline so where people are getting the impression that he has something big coming up from is a mystery to me.
Since we don’t know the work load for either Jensen or Jared it probably isn’t fair to say he has been getting more time off than Jensen. I am pretty sure they aren’t going to forget that there are two leads to the show and Jared/Sam will get his fair share of the story going forward. And if Sam is working a case as usual it goes to show that he is in the episode and doing something that has to do with the story. Not very much has been said about the second half of the season yet. Probably when the next round of conventions start we will get a few more hints and leaks.
[quote]Cain, Charlie, scenes of Rowena/Dean, Crowley’s weird love of Dean and hate of Sam. Then we have Cas and his daughter,[/quote]All of them Dean Characters…they will say Dean saved the world and has a big heart and is THE role model..while you see Sam’s luck is bad with women or is it the other way around..this is the most important thing about Sam you see…Garth is missing another Dean character..
Yes. Canon is a MAJOR issue, and has been during Carver’s entire reign. There’s world-building, and then there’s world-demolishing. Carver & co need to believe the world exists, and has rules, or else it is all demolishing.
I’m all in favour of adjusting canon – Learning something new about these monsters can be fascinating. BUT it has to be done in a manner that makes sense, is explained, and doesn’t make idiots out of the characters and their previous actions!
No, but in Supernatural we get… oh, now shapeshifters don’t have to shed skin to change; reapers are actually a type of angel – and rogue ones are easy to find (except, apparently by Death himself); Purgatory is dang easy to get into – and out of – Silly Winchesters! Silly Cas and even Sillier Crowley – after all, it’s his back door!… and….
Ah, nevermind. You all know the issues. No need to rehash them all (even if it is somewhat cathartic)
They are Carvers issues – the “showrunner” has to have control of his Show and his writers.. Like ANY executive, the failures of the enterprise land squarely on HIS lap, regardless of who was actually tasked to deal with the issue.
I hope that the mechanical nature of the cure was intentional on the writers’ part.
[b] 10.03 Soul Survivor [/b]
[i] Dean: Oh, by the way, you can, uh…blame yourself for me getting loose. All that blood you pumped into me to make me human — well, the less demon I was, the less the cuffs worked. And that Devil’s Trap — well, I just walked right across it. It smarted. But still…
Sam: Listen to me, Dean! We were getting close, okay? I know you’re still in there somewhere. Just let me finish the treatments. Dean?
Sam: Look, if you come out of that room, I won’t have a choice!
Dean: Sure you will! And I know which one you’ll make. Isn’t that right, Sammy? But see… Here’s the thing. I’m lucky. Oh, hell, I’m blessed. ‘Cause there’s just enough demon left in me that killing you ain’t no choice at all. [/i]
I want them to explore why demon Dean kept wanting to kill Sam (using a hammer!) even though Sam pleaded with him and Dean was human enough that he was able to escape the demon traps and Castiel restrained him quite easily.
I think I’ll just setup shop for here for a while and pretty much ignore every where else. I’m ruining everyone’s happiness. I guess I’m a bad fan.
I’m tired of absolutely loathing Supernatural episodes. I HATED The Things We Leave Behind. I swear I was okay with Castiel getting a story, and the Claire thing was an okay idea for me, but THIS WAS A MIDSEASON FINALE??? Did it have to be so slow and boring??? Did Sam and Dean seriously get to be supporting characters??? Did Sam get a plot? What happened to the cutting edge supernatural themed storytelling? That was a bad soap opera. No strong attempt at character building, no try at running with a cohesive theme for the season, doing things that actually keep the audience’s interest. What happened to the show I fell in love with? This isn’t even remotely close to it. It was like I was watching a bad Beauty and The Beast episode. Andrew Dabb wants to tell stories like this? What happened to things like pacing and respecting the spirit of the show? How about actually having a supernatural story?
So nice of them to actually work in a Crowley story in between that mess. He’s still in that whatever hideout acting like a guy licking his wounds? He’s THE FREAKING KING OF HELL!!!! He should be acting like it.
I just need some sleep but where was the action? Every writer and producer just seems to be content with phoning it in, and the fans are letting them. There’s no direction, and no true commitment to making the show anything interesting or good. It’s time for it to end. Or maybe it’s time for me to walk away. I’m actually thrilled I don’t have to put up with any more crap until January 20th. I need this break. At this rate, I don’t see me coming back.
Alice you are not alone I can promise you that. I was complaining about this show feeling like a soap opera last year. I feel just like you do and I’ve already not watched 2 episodes this season. I skipped quite a few last season too. I didn’t watch this episode, nothing about it appealed to me and as I see the recaps I did not miss anything. This is not must see TV. The writers are pandering to the online fandom instead of writing for the show. I’m one of those who just watches the show for what it is and I don’t watch it critically either but I can see and feel how soapy it is. I HATE soap operas too. I’m new to posting about the show but I’ve been with the show since it began and I just wanted to let you know your not the only heartbroken one out there. I really hope you do come back, I love your honesty and your not afraid to say hey this sucked! 🙂 But OTOH I feel like you and just want to walk away. I dunno just not hyped up to watch anymore 🙁 And I miss Sam….the real Sam of this show.
Alice – you’re not a bad fan; you’re trying to hold the show to a higher standard. I just followed you over here from the Bookdal’s Let’s Speculate article, where most of the feedback has been positive. I wish I could see what the other posters saw in this episode, but I can’t. That was an embarrassingly bad episode. What the hell is going on? That felt like a badly written soap opera (well, technically that statement is an oxymoron). And I don’t think the problem is with the actors or hard working folks in Vancouver; this is a writing and producing issue – how could someone look at this and say “this will make a great mid season finale”. What was “Supernatural” about it? I am beyond disgusted now; usually look forward to the series return in January but, not-so-much this season.
The show has become listless, rudderless. Sure hope someone can right the ship in the second half of the season.
I’m 100% sure Dean fans are going to be very pleased with the Dean heavy second half of the season, Cas fans will be well serviced too. I guess for most of those fans seeing a Sam with little to do and just being silent and supportive would be ok so given that Sam doesnt have many fans anyway I think the second half of the season will be very well received by nearly everyone but the handful of Sam fans. Its a win for everyone even Jared who gets plenty of time off to be with his kids.
I guess what makes me a little “bitter” is the assumption that if someone cares about Dean we must not care about Sam or can even be considered a “Sam” fan. I guess only a certain dwindling “handful” can claim that.
IMO, the show does it best work when they keep both leads actively involved in the story; they had the same issue in the latter part of S8, when Dean was relegated to being Sam’s nursemaid. It’s not as noticeable when this happens with Dean because the show is told from his POV. In Sam’s case, if the mytharc is with Dean, and the POV is with Dean, then there’s really not much for his character to do. And even with Dean’s story, it has been beyond predictable since he took on the MoC; I couldn’t believe people were actually surprised when he turned in to a demon at the end of S9. I don’t know of any fans who didn’t think he would be cured of being a demon by the 200th episode, and that the MoC would come back and bite him in the ass for the mid-season finale. Has anyone been surprised by anything that has happened this season, or have there been any unexpected twists? The only development that surprised me this season was when Hannah chose to give up her vessel.
Setting aside the predictability of what has happened this season, in summary, this isn’t a Sam or Dean issue, or Sam vs Dean fan issue, or a Team Winchester issue, the problem is with unimaginative and crappy storytelling.
“Liking” this post a gazillion times.
Thanks njspnfan. Well stated.
[quote] I don’t know of any fans who didn’t think he would be cured of being a demon by the 200th episode, and that the MoC would come back and bite him in the ass for the mid-season finale. Has anyone been surprised by anything that has happened this season, or have there been any unexpected twists?[/quote]
Nope. Nothing surprising or even that interesting. The thing that’s been the hardest to take is that Sam is being totally ignored this season for the boring, underutilized, snoozefest known as The Mark of Cain. Talk about a waste of a good idea.
Now let’s be fair here. We also had the snoozefest of “we have to force all the angels to return to heaven” and Crowley has Mommy issues. There was a lot of snooze to go around.
[quote]I guess for most of those fans seeing a Sam with little to do and just being silent and supportive would be ok so[/quote]Agree..most them want Sam being only silent.Dean wants to talk to someone Sam will leave the room…
Now in the latest episode the writers did not have Sam tell a story but had Sam aking Dean to tell a story of John..maybe the writers do not know that John is Sam’s father too…even this once they could not have Sam having a lengthy dialogue.
Sorry AnonymousN, it may be true for some, not all. I like Sam involved and contributing. I just don’t see Sam being as uninvolved as some people do. I think he has had some pretty meaty stuff this year IMO. I also think the latter half of the season will be a good one for Sam, character-wise. But I see here a lot of people throwing in the towel, I respect that and won’t make any efforts to try to talk anyone out of that.:)
hi Alice, i just wanted to say i agree with you, i also feel heartbroken, 🙁 and i cant wait to read your review when you post it. im also feeling betrayed, hurt, and just broken right now:(. im gonna go cry now 🙁
A happy fan just taking a timid peek at what’s brewing in the bitterness thread. Really sorry the show has you feeling this way, Alice 🙁 Hopefully the mini-hellatus will help, and fingers crossed the episodes next year will reinstore some of your love for the show. Whatever you do, whether you come back or don’t, please know we’re very grateful for all the writings you have done and the work that you’ve put into this site… which hopefully will still remain even if you choose to part with the show. 🙂 Have a good holiday break!
OK. Yes, so – I lied. Apparently I DO need more than just the guys “fighting the good fight, together”.
Hated the episode last night (and no, it’s not ALL about Sam, but a lot of it is)…. Still hate it this morning. (You’re not alone, alice)
So… In ADDITION to the guys, together, EQUALLY….. I ALSO need
1) quality writing
2) a good ORIGINAL story (we did the angsty teen with Alex, and we did the Cas realizes the damage he’s done… many times, and Oliver Twist/Fagin have been WAY overused)
3) I need good transitions between story lines
4) I need good characters (WHEN did the KING OF HELL become a sad mama’s boy????)
5) I need writing that is more subtle than anchovies and jalapenos on toast. Oh dear, the MOC is influencing Dean? Heavens!
6) I need something more than Sam being present. I need him to be a MAIN CHARACTER. I need him in the story line, not tagging along until the final 2 minutes where he fusses over Dean. (Even back when the story lines were always “What’s wrong with Sam”, it was Dean who had the main action as well as POV).
7) I NEED Sam AND Dean to be the MAIN characters of their own show.
8) And I need a MIDSEASON FINALE that gives me a REASON to hold on and come back in a months time.
I had more fun writing really bad fan fic with a couple friends last night than watching this…..um….. episode.
NOPE. NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE. This episode was a steaming pile of Sh*t, promoted as if it was gold, and I am done.
Somebody let me know if my real Show comes back again. I’ve waited the entire Carver era being disappointed, and I can’t do it anymore. I had such hopes this season. The boys would actually resolve some issues, and grow like Carver had been saying. Right? Wrong. It’s same old, same old – only worse.
I am sick and sad. I am tired of hoping and being disappointed. I still love Sam and Dean (and Jared and Jensen), but I’ll stick with TNT and the early seasons.
Honestly , I can’t watch the really early seasons anymore. It’s like a completely different show, and when I watch, all I can think about is how screwed they’re going to be in the later seasons. I don’t even recognize them anymore, especially Sam. I love Jared and I love his enthusiasm and that’s the only reason I’m holding on right now. I love Jensen too, but I became a Sam fan early on and it’s left me nothing but disappointed. I assume that Jared sees something different than we do when we watch because he’s usually so positive about the show, but it just leaves me with a bitter taste in my mouth.
I hear you, sylvia37. I was right there last summer. Afraid these latest seasons had destroyed my love of the entire series.
But I’ve somehow rediscovered them this fall. I hope you will do. I have to convince myself that a lot of this never happened…. I’m not sure at what point my show actually ends – it changes daily, usually a random point between SwanSong and somewhere in season 7 – but currently I think that when Sam got his soul back, they retired to the countryside so nothing would endanger the wall. 🙂
Jared is one loyal S.O.B., in my opinion, and a helluva better actor than anyone gives him credit for. He sells enthusiasm like nobody – it IS his profession, afterall. (Yes, I’m cynical.) Plus, it pays his salary, and comes with a devoted fan following (inspite of the nut jobs), so what’s not to like?
What I didn’t like:
Dean chomping his way through the episode – annoying
Another feisty teen girl gone bad with over the top make up and strange braids, Amelia having left to find herself and another dead Grandmother. A nice change would have been Cas finding Amelia had pulled her and Claire’s life together and though they didn’t forgive Cas, they were glad to find out Jimmy was in heaven.
Cas had the juice to blow up the doors and throw the bad guys against the wall but he needed Sam and Dean to hold guns on them and they both leave Dean alone in the house and you could see where that was going from a mile away.
They actually seem to be killing more humans then monsters or at least questioning if monsters should be killed. Killing humans is okay now but was something that never used to be done.
They keep recycling plot devices but can’t remember canon or what happened last week.
The promos are more interesting the the episode.
Dean is pretty much beyond redemption even if he loses the MOC and Sam left the building a long time ago so what exactly is the family business. Team Free Will has become a train wreck.
What I liked:
It only lasted 43 minutes and now we’re on hiatus.
prix68 – that was brutal, honest, and I agree with everything you said. 🙂
I am in violent agreement with the posters who can’t get into this season. I feel it’s stagnating, too, and find myself pulling back further with each episode.
As someone new to the show, I am so relieved to see others sharing my disappointment with this season. I started watching a few months ago, and have watched the entire season, all at once. Yes, now I’m a loyal fan, and am heartbroken as to where this is going this year. It’s so choppy, stilted, and blah. I’m rewatching season 4 and it’s gripping. This is like “whaaaaa?”. Cas. Ok. But where the hell is Castiel The Angel?? Sam looks thin, peaked, and disconnected from the show. Although I have enjoyed seeing him laugh this season. That is a treat. Crowley? Meh. Dean is pretty good, brilliant in Fan Fiction, but definitely not being used to his potential. This is such a waste of all these great characters. I want to cry. It’s almost like they are catering to the fans too much. Get a story. Be bold. Forget about what we want and do a good job. We’ll follow along.
What do I want to see? Here’s my list:
Sam as a Man of Letters. Be the new Bobby, or Henry.
Some new lore to get into. There’s a buttload of Mesopotamian gods. Heck, they could be current day terrorists. Something other than vampires, werewolves, witches. Yawn.
Music anyone? The music so far has not been good enough, and has not added any depth to anything.
The Crowley story could get interesting, but I think the last episode dragged it out. WTH with the prolonged dungeon scenes? Get her out, let Crowley talk to her, get the story moving along already.
More Sam, more Dean, more dark to fight.
And please, please, someone sack up Castiel. The contrast to Season 4 Castiel is sickening.
Ok, vent over.
Glorie
You made a good pint about Sam looking thin and disconnected, while the thinness likely down to Jared’s shoulder injury which meant he couldnt work out and his telling people that his body naturally wants to be thin I think it says a lot about Jared’s state of mind when it comes to the show and his personal life too. He’s tired and worried that the show is taking him away from his family too much. The past few years his enthusiasm for the show, for Sam has been ebbing away. I thought the last interview with Jared was quite telling, he knows Sam hasnt got a storyline this season and he’s not trying to lie to his fans and pretend he has one. I think he’s just done, tired of having to defend and explain the writers poor choices for Sam and the lack of good story telling for a character that he himself has been carrying single handedley for fan too many years now.
ParadiseHeat, which interview are you referring to? 🙂
i too would like to know abt the interview.
I haven’t seen an interview where Jared even comes close to giving off that vibe so I would be interested also. Maybe I missed that one.
I would be interested in reading that one as well.
Hi there, I post for the first time but I have been reading the posts for a while.
I’d like to add my feelings on season 10.
First, I prefer it than season 9, but it’s not that hard because season 9 was awful. The reason I prefer it is because at least this season, the brothers are talking to each other. But I am very upset with many things since Carver took the reign of the show.
– first, Sam and Dean are supposed to be the heart of the show but lately they became supported characters of the guests and I hate it. They are always knocked over to let the guest shine and it hurst so much the show, it is becoming a parody. I don’t care about all the drama, the “they are codependant and need to mature” way of thinking of Carver. The show was special because Sam and Dean were ready to any sacrifice to save the other. I don’t want to see Sam not looking for his brother, I don’t want to see Dean angry with Sam because of it and to throw it to his face every five minutes, I don’t want to see Sam not talking to Dean because he saved him by letting an angel possessed him. But honestly, season 10 is a little improvement in this direction.
– Deanmon was a joke. If they give a cliffhanger where Dean wakes up a demon, the least they can do is to have the guts to give us a real demon and not this joke. Deanmon was pathetic. That’s sad. Soulless Sam would have kicked his ass. I was finally happy it didn’t last long. I truly think they chicken out on this one.
– Sam: like so many others here, I miss Sammy. He has no storyline, no point of view, he keeps having to excuse himself to let others interact. There are two leads on this show, it is so hard to give them both a story.
– Castiel: I am so over the angel storyline. I am bored every time he is on screen. I am sorry to say so but I truly think he overpassed his time on the show.
– Crowley is becoming Castiel. It was very funny to listen to him complaining in “weekend at Bobbys” how boring is hell. But he was right. It is boring and seeing it kills the demon fear.
Cass and Crowley are the same, they were awesome supporting characters but having their own storyline is not working and I will say it again, it is boring..
THEY HAVE TO KEEP THE FOCUS ON SAM AND DEAN.
– Supernatural: why do they keep this name, I wondered while watching the last episode because there was nothing supernatural in it, no huntings, no monsters, it was so long. Vampires, werewolves, demons, angels, witches, djinns, they look way to normal. We need some good MOW, real evil and scary. Can’t they find some new. We never saw a chupacabra for example. Please get some imagination. But of course they don’t have time with all their soap opera.
I am watching season 6 on DVD lately. And I am thinking, this is so good compared to what we have now, Eve brought so great MOW. I miss that. And I remember so many thought is wasn’t good at the time. Well, in my opinion it was 20 times better than this crap.
And the worse, is the preview for the next episodes. What could make me want to run away more than seeing Metatron back meaning an other 15 minutes speech from an Iliketoearmetalk character.
Sorry, for a first, it was a lot of frustrations out of my chest.
I agree, Jane. The focus of Supernatural has always been the brothers. There have been recurring supporting characters, but they were never co-stars. Sorry, but Supernatural has never had an ensemble cast and I don’t think the diehard fans want it to have one. Based on these last few seasons, it hasn’t worked. We’ve been bored by it. We want to see our beloved brothers; everyone else is filler.
I don’t think any of us begrudge Jared and Jensen being able to go to Disneyland with their families or going to see their kids’ soccer games. They’ve given us their blood, sweat and tears these past ten years, but, speaking for myself, I’d like to see more of them. They are the show to me. If they want to go live their lives (and who can blame them?!) then figure out the end game and say good-bye. If there is a spin-off, I’d hope to see them again. If not, then I’d love to see a big send-off – maybe a two hour finale with car chases and explosions along with gripping, heart-rending story-telling. I’m sure they could get the budget as ratings are solid and they are definitely being supported by bigger name advertisers – Macy’s anyone?! I’d rather they went out with a bang than a whimper. Unless there is a major re-boot, I see a once vital show getting weaker with each episode if it continues as it has.
I started to answer Nightsky’s what do you expect from season ten and realized that my answer belongs here, not there. So here’s my unhappiness mixed with my expectations for the rest of the season.
I realized just how little this season has caught me when Nightsky talked about what happened with Olivia (in the expectations article) and I was going “who the hell is Olivia?” and then I had to Google her before I remembered. And then I didn’t really care. We were told that this season we wouldn’t get an over all antagonist, but that the stories would be about the characters facing themselves. To me that means that Sam will have ZERO to do for the rest of the season because the writers have shown no interest in Sam’s character since, well at least since Carver came aboard and really going back to when Sera Gamble either decided to or was told that she was no longer going to be show runner. Since I like Sam I hate this, but I’m prepared for it. I expect that we will continue to get more POV about random demon #2 (AKA Gerald), than we will get Sam.
So what else do I expect? I expect that in spite of the MOC, Dean won’t kill anyone who isn’t “bad”. He will skate by killing demons and bad people. He may kill Sam but I’m sure the writers will make certain we know he only kills him because Sam was asking for it, either by not being sympathetic enough toward Dean and trying to stop him from killing people or by trusting Dean too much and not stopping Dean from killing people, including Sam. I expect Sam to maintain the role he had in this episode, good looking lamp i.e. if Sam were replaced by a good looking lamp, the story would not change one iota. I expect Dean to have tons of epic manpain. I expect Cas will angst a bit about Claire and then forget all about her for the next five years. If not Claire will forgive Cas for getting Jimmy killed and then everyone will remember that angels always leave a little grace behind in a vessel and she will give Cas his grace back so he can be whole again. I hope she doesn’t do this just as she is about to die, having jumped in front of an angel sword to save Cas, but I’m pretty sure that there is a reasonable chance that she will sacrifice her life to save Cas.
I think we will see Crowley go from interesting and funny antagonist to browbeaten Mama’s boy. Which will not entertain me at all.
When I heard Jeremy Carver was becoming show runner, I was happy. I remembered him writing episodes that dealt with the boys emotional state. He did a Sam focused episode. But the show has done horribly on emotional development of the boys and has totally tanked doing anything even closely related to a POV for Sam. I hoped we would get something when he went to save Dean, but we really didn’t. I do expect if we get anything on Sam it will only be to prop up Dean, and show Sam being more evil than Dean the killing machine. I’m really having a hard time with this season. I really, really hope I’m wrong.
I’m not even lying, Percy, when I say I had the same reaction re: Olivia. No lie. I literally thought, “Who is Olivia?” LOL! I still don’t know who Olivia is.
add me to the list and I do not feel like I want to know who Olivia is.
I am curious and want to know. Who the hell is Olivia ??????
The shapeshifter maid.
Good God, where does one start? I’m at a veritable lost for words.
I’ve written an deleted near 10 different posts over the past 2 hours. I simply cant put into words how bereft I feel towards my once beloved show. That, plus I can’t help using quite an alarming number of “f” & “c” bombs, and I don’t want to get booted from the site for *vulgar (yet truly deserved) language.
* What’s the language tolerance like on this site? Can I swear? I don’t think I could write an honest response to this episode without letting a few colourful words fly.
IDK the written policy but F’s and B’s have
been used by me. Go for it, I want to read
your thoughts. I cant read anything else.
This show unfortunately lost its way in season 6/7 for me, even though there have been some great moments since. I just don’t see any resemblance to the earlier seasons. The writers have backed themselves into a corner somewhat because every brotherly moment needs to be replicated with Dean and Cas for the benefit of shipping fans. Deans characterisation was eroded in season 7 when Cas was instantly forgiven for driving Sam into a mental hospital..this is not the Dean from earlier seasons. It’s not maturation it’s just unrealistic. They are telling us things in interviews that does not translate onto screen. Carver said Dean and Sam would be healing each other, yet Dean tried to kill Sam and doesn’t seem to care, because they want Dean to feel less guilt in his life. There has been no apology even. The brotherly relationship is hollow, lines are written in to keep fans satisfied but they dont mean anything. What does the two of them against the world mean? It hasnt been like that for a long time, it’s just a line. Dean is not shown as the protective big brother they tell us he is, Cas is supposed to be a powerful angel, Crowley has been turned into a needy mess. As for where the overall story is going, my prediction is Sam has saved Dean from being a Demon (though Dean has given Cas equal credit) so Cas will save him from the mark. One brother will end up killing the other after deciding the world is more important after all (this is what Carver wants). I think fans have to be realistic.. Dean trying to kill Sam was the start of a drip drip effect so them harming each other becomes more acceptable (Dean was not a full Demon at this point, Cas said “it wasnt you..well not all you”)
I feel like they took away the relationship that Crowley had with Sam and instead made Crowley & Dean into a thing. That was disappointing to me because I thought that Sam and Crowley had had a really interesting dynamic going on. I don’t understand Dean and Crowley supposedly being buddies even before Dean became a demon.
Couldn’t at least Crowley be a character who is more about Sam? It’d make sense because Sam injected his own purified blood in Crowley and Sam witnessed something real when Crowley broke down at the church. In addition, demons have always shown a special interest in Sam.
It was interesting to try to figure out how Crowley truly felt about Sam during season nine. But this season turned Crowley into someone who went so far as to pine away after Dean.
Dean and Crowley have had a few adventures before the whole MOC business. They went together to go capture Brady, they went together to go find/kill Death. I never got the feeling that Sam would ever forgive Crowley for killing Sarah. He didn’t seem to like Crowley very much while he was in their dungeon.
I think that Crowley and Sam have a more interesting dynamic inherently. Their personalities are so different but they are still evenly matched. I don’t see much depth in Dean and Crowley’s relationship.
I feel like the significance of Sam and Crowley’s relationship was negated by Crowley becoming downright needy regarding Dean.
[quote] I never got the feeling that Sam would ever forgive Crowley for killing Sarah. [/quote]
Sam has been burned before so as long as Crowley behaves like a demon, Sam isn’t going to forgive and forget all the things that Crowley has done. However, I think that Sam is ultimately the type of person who thinks that it’s possible to seek forgiveness.
I am going to start by saying that literally all my anger is aimed at the writers. I am not even angry at Dean because none of this storyline makes any sense nor has it for 2 seasons now, and I don’t think any of the characters would behave the way they have been portrayed.
I think Paradise Heat might be referring to this article: EW ([url]”http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/11/18/supernatural-jared-padalecki-jensen-ackles-season-10/”[/url]) and specifically this paragraph, which considering Jared is normally incredibly up-beat comes across as the most depressing thing I have ever read:
[quote]PADALECKI: Sam knows how much he loves his brother and how much he’ll do for his brother, or for Cas, or whoever he loves, but he feels like sometimes he hasn’t either shown it or had the opportunity to—from the pilot when he decided to go off to school to season seven when he was with Amelia instead of trying to get his brother back from purgatory. Sam knows that when shit hits the fan, Sam will do whatever it takes, but he isn’t always sure that other people see that. And talking to fans, [I] hear that kind of echoed where they’re like, “Hey, why won’t Sam do for Dean what Dean does for Sam?” And part of me wants to like go, “Sam went to the hell box as Lucifer for his brother. What are you talking about he doesn’t do the same thing?” So it just goes to show that not everybody knows just what Sam’s commitments are. But I think he’s proven himself kind of begrudgingly because he had to cross some boundaries he didn’t want to cross, but now he knows that Dean knows just how far he will go to help his brother, and now the audience gets to see it too.[/quote]
And I bet this is as negative as you will ever hear him be because Jared the ‘diva’ is actually an unbelievably generous team player.
Jared the reason the fans don’t understand / remember what Sam has done is because the current crop of writers are screwing with Sam’s storyline when they aren’t ignoring him completely.
As I said in a post last season, Jared discovered live on stage at a con who Jensen thought the two brothers were – specifically that Sam is self-centered and won’t go to the lengths Dean will. And he (Jared) can’t help but have noticed that every bit of storyline since has reinforced that Dean is a ‘role model’ and Sam is the second largest screw-up in the history of the world – by actually saying ‘Dean is a role model and Sam is the second largest screwup in history’. Oh and also Dean saved the world from the Apocalypse while Sam kills his girlfriends and his pets.
THIS IS NOT THE STORY I WATCHED FOR 7 SEASONS. Jensen is wrong, the current crop of writers are wrong, and as of this article Jared is wrong too. Sam has gone above and beyond his entire life for a family who have on some fairly major occasions not been there for him. And he never makes a big deal of the ways HE has been betrayed (except last season, and look how that turned out). If that makes him selfish i don’t know what else the guy can do.
This doesn’t mean that Sam is right and Dean is wrong. It means that this used be a show about two brothers who WERE there for each other, all the time. And this bloody rewriting it after the fact so that everything positive Sam has done is either ignored or undermined or outright rewritten to another character is the reason why I, for one, have stopped watching. They can destroy the current storyline if they must but in all justice leave the history alone. The previous crop of writers wrote good stories – stop trying to dismatle their legacy dammit! (I am pissed at the writers this evening – because it is because of THEM that Jared is making the above comment).
I hear a rumor that there is to be a Sam-centic wee!chester episode next year, heaven only knows how much damage that will be used for.
This comment is not meant to upset anyone who is happy. If you are happy please be happy. if you are happy and you also love Sam then I am not saying you don’t (love Sam) 😀 I love Dean, but I don’t understand the necessity to spoil the show, rewrite history, and unbalance their relationship like this.
Jeesh, this thread makes me cry! Although not logistically possible I kinda wish tptb would open up story ideas to fans cuz I’m willing to bet we could come up with some awesome stuff.
Honestly, I don’t think the writers truely know Sam or they don’t see him the same way and so have their own POV, which can vary drastically. Dean is easier, but still, he waivers between BAMF and self-loathing drunk. They need to spend several hours locked in a room and straight up agree to WHO the characters are, what is their motivation and then write them with that POV whether they personally agree or not. Knowing the motivation and POV of the character you write is paramount, and knowing the history, not the story but why the character has done what they’ve done or will do what they do is essential.
I’ve made no secret that I see from Sam’s POV (and I live with someone who sees from Dean’s). I have been able to write his story in my head thru the beginning of season 7. After that I’m perplexed. Why would Sam have annoying lucifer hallucinations when he could have had truely horrific Dean/Bobby/Mom (etc) hallucinations telling him what a scumbag person he was, then overcoming them himself. It was a vehicle in a largely pitiful season 7 that began so well and forgot about giving any insight into the strength of the character after all he had survived. This is the product of a team of writers that superficially looked at the past seasons but did not try to understand and agree to the motivations of either characters decisions.
Despite the season 7 mess, at least it ended with the boys on the same page. They could have gone direct from there (after the purgatory rescue) to whole new stories. Instead, Carver chose to take 2 steps back. This would have been ok if he had a plan for showing the growth and purpose of each character. Alas I fear the plan was strictly plot driven and not character driven. I understand from some interviews that he had a three year plan, but that doesn’t mean there should be no progressive growth and POV until the very last seconds of each season. He’s had so much to work with as seasons start, yet has basically languished in banality until the bitter end.
Why? I mean why the characters do what they do is basic. Ask and answer those questions then write consistently from that POV. Even if it’s not spelled out specifically in the show, the consistency, the knowledge of why these characters do what they do will make a better story. Why does Dean feel the need to protect and exclude his brother? Is it only because this is his burden and he can’t let go of that? Is it his job? If that is the agreed decision then having him realize this and learn to see his brother as an equal partner, to have faith in Sam might be the road he needs to take. Then the story of how he gets there can unfold around him.
Why does Sam have difficulty with the concept of “home”? Is it because the only true home he’s ever had has four wheels? And the car is constantly referred to as Dean’s and he’s become just a guest, accused of stealing it if he takes it without permission? What does he feel when Dean knocks him out to make sure he’s protected? What did he feel when his family told him it was ok to jump into the pit? Was he surprised? Hurt? Resolved? “If Dean says I deserve to die then I must deserve it”? Each one of those motivations can create multiple roads and options for compelling stories.
The problem is likely that this is a show with passionate viewers, who know and expect a certain level of knowledge and commitment. I certainly don’t have this expectation for any current show, and I’ve certainly stopped watching shows that forget or change their purpose. Expectation is a bitch, but I have a right to it. I don’t expect that the show has the same POV as I do, but I expect a consistent one and a firm one. If they want to say Sam is a spoiled selfish brat who will always do the wrong thing, then make sure he actually does the wrong thing for the wrong reason. If they want to make Dean the BAMF hero, then stop having him wallow in his own muck for episodes on end. I understand humans have ups and downs, but this roller coaster of uncertainty is making me queasy.
As an optimist I still have hope that the end justifies the last 2.5 years, but I might just be rewriting the stories in my head.
I went to comment on Nightsky’s Threads article, but then I realized that it wasn’t fair to post there. It’s not her fault. So I’m going to post my bitterness here…
What I wanted to say was that I found it very frustrating, and telling…..and just plain SAD…… that in her entire paragraph on what she saw as the plot lines set up for the rest of the season, that even someone as fair as I believe that Nightsky is couldn’t come up with a single thing to warrant mentioning Sam by name. Not one thing.
I gather Carver doesn’t even listen to himself anymore…. It’s all about the brothers, my ass.
Here I have an accidental double post that I should use for something …
Possible spoilers for The Vampire Diaries:
Hey has anyone else noticed that this season of the Vampire Diaries has totally ripped off SPN’s One brother having not really that bad a time in Purgatory and then rescuing himself only to discover his brother thinks he is dead and has moved on to become a handyman instead of trying impossible rescues ’cause he doesn’t know where he is and couldn’t have rescued him anyway and in the meantime abandons his friend(s) who need him and gets a mildly annoying girlfriend that everybody hates – storyline?
Stefan avoided the dog and so people can’t use THAT as shorthand for how awful a person he is … but I think he was shunned from Thanksgiving dinner?
Wouldn’t it have been great if Stefan had ended up at the Motel where Sam had been a handyman? You could make an entire show out of mysterious v buff guys gradually doing up a motel while fighting supernatural evil in their spare time (and meeting girls). You could call it ‘NightShift’ … though probably not …
Damon on the other hand, left his supernatural friend behind in ‘purgatory’ and at last viewing hadn’t made the remotest effort to try and rescue her …. because he was busily trying to get back into Elena’s knick … um … good books.
Admittedly I am a few weeks behind … I have to say one of the best bits of TVD is wondering what spurious excuse for a party they are going to come up with this week. I am putting in a vote for “Jamestown Mayflower Daughters of the American Revolution Preservation Society Spring Fling”
*ramble ends*
(“cornhusk hanging contests” – [i]there’s[/i] one they haven’t done yet)
oh my god:o i didnt know that at all oh my god:o
Actually it’s about pandering to shippers ….
The ones who have NO interest in the storyline as long as they can invent smouldering looks between their faves.
What kills me is that the producers are saying ‘well the ratings are up, we must be doing something right!’ … um the ratings are up because of Netflix, think how high they MIGHT have been.
…. Meh, well maybe it isn’t ALL about pandering to shippers …. but it would explain a lot of weird decisions storyline wise….
[quote]First of all, did u observe in this sneak peek that Sam turns his back to Charlie when he tells her that he didn’t burn the book? Also did u observe that he’s not even able to meet Charlie’s eyes when he tells her that he’s taking help from “world’s most dangerous witch”? What does it tell u? In my opinion, it tells you that even Sam realises that he’s doing something wrong by refering BOTD and getting help form Rowena. But he’s blinded by his love for his brother and with that his need to save his brother.[/quote]See the thing is either he is blinded by the need to save his brother or he knows that he is going behind his brother’s back and working with a dangerous witch.The thing is he knows he is going behind Dean’s back and that is why he knows what Charlie is accusing him of ..that is going behind Dean’s back is true and it shows that he knows the risks…so yeah I do not buy your point that Sam is blinded.It is just that he weighed pros and cons..pro being that is only known hope of Dean getting rid of the mark.[quote]When Dean took Gadreel’s help it was the same situation. He was desperate to save his brother, he was blinded by his love for his brother and with that his need to save his brother. Hence he did what he did. Sam is doing the same, right? But I never read any comment then in favour of Dean’s decision or defending his decision. Everyone was busy saying how Dean betrayed Sam and took his choice away[/quote]It was not the same situation because whatever Dean was doing was TO Sam not to himself.Now If got himself possessed by Demon, angel and a leviathan at the same time to save Sam It is okay because whatever He did is to himself.So yeah it is not the same thing.Also if you have not seen comments in favour of Dean it is your own fault as I have seen plenty.[quote]My next point is, i think there’s a huge difference between taking an angel’s help and taking a book’s help which is described as DAMNED in the first place and add to that a witch’s help who in Sam’s own words is “world’s most dangerous witch”. [/quote]Angels in our world are good ones not in supernatural.Actually taking the help of the book of damned is apt to this situation because Dean is DAMNED WITH THE MOC.So it is a book about our Dean.[quote]Angels are dick as we have heard from the show itself time and again. Yes, they’re dick but they are not dark and dangerous. [/quote]This makes Demons easy to predict …angels not so much as there are dark and dangerous angels or have you forgotten metatron,zacharaiah etc.[quote]Yes, Kevin’s death was unfortunate and tragic and Dean’s fault at some level but Gadreel didn’t kill him because Gadreel was some dark and twisted being who kills humans for pleasure. Gadreel did it because he put his faith in wrong man and acted according to his orders. Because Gadreel was dick as angels are. [/quote]No ,Gadreel was misguided.It was Dean’s fault because he hid it from Kevin.Gadreel was not dark and twisted but he killed Kevin.[quote]Now, here is a book written on a nun’s own skin and in her own blood(which in itself is creepy) which tells how to do dark stuff. The book is calling Dean to do bad stuff. There’s a reason it is calling Dean, it’s because he has the MOC which itself is a dark stuff. And Sam is trying to take help of this book to save Dean. Now can u imagine the impact it will have if BOTD is decoded and fell into wrong hands or even in Dean’s hands before he gets rid of The Mark? I think it’ll seriously be worse and twisted than what Gadreel did or could have done, don’t you think? Sam must be doing something wrong, don’t you think?[/quote]Now, do you think Sam does not know he id doing something dangerous?Now see thinking that it is worse than what gadreel did allows you to minimize what Dean did and maxumize what Sam is doing.
It was written on a nun’s skin.So? if it cures Dean it is more than good.[quote]Now as for characters continuously telling Sam how Sam is doing wrong taking help from book and Rowena and on top of that going behind Dean’s back…. well shouldn’t they at least try to express their concerns and try to stop Sam? You should be glad there’s at least someone to tell Sam that he’s doing something wrong. Dean had noone.[/quote]Yes and characters should have expressed their ickiness, the abuse of his brothers trust and autonomy which what Dean had done.No I am not glad that there are people who are condemning Sam and praising only Dean and Cas.now see it is not Dean who is being told all these things so see you will not understand.lol I would be “glad” if I had “friends” like these.lol.
[quote]And as for Dean telling Sam to back off from saving him with BOTD, i think, Dean is not telling him to back off from saving him at all. Dean just doesn’t want Sam to take help from BOTD. I don’t think Dean ever complained about Sam trying to save him, he just didn’t wanted Sam to take help from Ruby or Demon Blood(In case of his crossroad deal, he did prevent Sam from trying to save him because there was good reason. [/quote]When the BOTD is the only way available that is what it comes to.Amrutha if you know any other way please do illuminate us people in the dark.No one said Dean prevented sam.Dean told Sam not to but was trying to save Dean.By words he definitely told Sam not to.[quote]. But even then, eventually Dean understood that Sam was doing what Dean would have done if tables were turned and accepted that Sam try and save him but just not with help from Ruby or Demon blood. [/quote]and now dean has MOC.[quote]And when Dean realised that that was the only way he could be saved then Dean stopped Sam and chose to die and go to hell). [/quote]The only way to save Dean..there was no saving Dean as Dean’s deal was made by Dean himself.Oh you could transplant parts from other people but yeah our heroes would no more be heroes.See the thing is Sam was Okay with dying and he did not want anyone else to pay the price for him being alive but you know Kevin payed the price.Sam did not take a way to save Dean that Dean rejected but Dean not so much.[quote]As for Charlie dying and it being Sam’s fault…..why wouldn’t it be? [/quote]Simple because Charlie is an adult and sam fully disclosed what her support to his plan entails i.e that they would be going behind Dean’s back and taking Rowena’s help and will be using the book of the damned.Now even after knowing this if she is in then it is her who is responsible for her fate.Now Kevin…did he know Sam was possessed by gadreel?Did Dean fully disclose things to Kevin?[quote]everyone screamed last season that Kevin dying was Dean’s fault?[/quote]We told it was you did not.[quote]Then why wouldn’t it be Sam’s fault if Charlie dies?[/quote]see above.[quote]Now as for Dean caring for Charlie’s safety….i don’t see why he wouldn’t. [/quote]This has nothing to do with dean showing concern it is the show having Dean show concern when it is Charlie and when Kevin”yeah Kevin decode the tablet” …”I have not slept” …”NOW KEVIN NOW”.and how Kevin and Charlie are in danger.[quote]Dean considers her his sister, he cares for her. He will always be concerned however tough or ninja Charlie becomes. That’s who Dean is. He cares for Sam, he cares for Cas, he cares for Charlie no matter how tough or capable they are of fighting themselves. I don’t understand why everyone is so surprised and pissed about that.[/quote]We have written many comments about why we are upset ..you are free to read those.