Threads: Supernatural 9.12 and 9.13
Ready for our next brain teasing exercise tracking Supernatural Threads? Settle in because there is a lot to cover! On the surface, one wouldn’t have expected “Sharp Teeth” (9.12) and “The Purge” (9.13) to provide many new threads since they were not heavy myth arc episodes. Their impact related more to the emotional tremors that rocked the brother’s relationship. Sam delivered two lines at the end of each story, first a cryptic implication about not being brothers (9.12) then he told Dean that he wouldn’t save him (9.13). That last line sent fandom into a shared heartbreak over the brother’s pain and emotional separation, followed by an endless analysis of Sam and Dean’s positions, passionately defending one brother or the other. If we put aside the emotional blow of the broken bromance for a moment and look for clues to the season’s arcs, they are several interesting dialogues to consider.
Answers …and that is being generous
“The Problem” – In the conversation between the brothers on the pier at the end of “Road Trip” (9.10), the writers set up a hook for viewers to ponder:
Sam: I was ready to die, Dean!
Dean: I know. But I wouldn’t let you, because that’s not in me.
Sam: So what? You decide to trick me into being possessed by some psycho angel?
Dean: He saved your life.
Sam: So what? I was willing to die…..
Dean: Can’t you see, I’m poison, Sam. People get close to me…they get killed or worse. I tell myself that I help more people than I hurt and I tell myself that I’m doing it all for the right reasons, and I believe that, but I can’t, I won’t drag anybody through the muck with me, not anymore.
Sam: Go. I’m not going to stop you. But don’t go thinking that’s the problem, ‘cause it’s not.
I listed that last line in the 9.11 Threads article, but we didn’t really discuss it (I was so sure we talked about it! I reread the article and comments twice looking for the conversation on it!).
Well, three episodes later in “The Purge” (9.13), Sam finally explained what he thought was the problem:
Dean: You know Sam, I saved your hide back there, and I saved your hide at that church and the hospital. I may not think things all the way through, k, but what I do, I do because it’s the right thing. I’d do it again.
Sam: and that is the problem. You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in and even when you mess up you think what you’re doing is worth it because you’ve convinced yourself you’re doing more good than bad but you’re not. Kevin’s dead. Crowley’s in the wind. We are no closer to beating this angel thing. Tell me, what is the upside to me being alive?
Dean: You kidding me? You and me. Fighting the good fight together.
Sam: Just once be honest with me. You didn’t save me for me, you did it for you… I was ready to die. I was ready. I should have died. But you. You didn’t want to be alone. That is what all this boils down to. You can’t stand the thought of being alone….
Dean: You want to be honest? If the situations were reversed and I was dying, you would do the same thing.
Sam: No Dean. I wouldn’t. Same circumstances. I wouldn’t.
Putting these two conversations back to back helps us look at the continuity. So the problem is…..what? Since Sam said “that is the problem”, he obviously thinks Dean stated the problem clearly. Well, I for one am not clear on the matter! There are several components to Dean’s statement, each of which could be the problem. I don’t think Sam is objecting to being alive, per se (“I saved your hide”). Sam probably isn’t anxious to die, even though he has to be tired of fighting the combined forces of Heaven and Hell. Is the problem that Dean keeps saving Sam (“I’d do it again”) to the detriment of everyone else, and each time he saves Sam, Dean does more harm than good? Maybe the problem is Dean’s fear of being alone? Sam says it “all boils down” to that.
So if I try to restate “the problem” more precisely, it could be:
Dean is so afraid of being alone that he keeps Sam alive, regardless of the consequences…
Stated differently, though, changes the problem:
Dean loves and believes in Sam so much that he keeps him alive, regardless of the consequences…
….even if Sam’s death would bring about something good, (e.g. closing Hell), and living would risk further harm (e.g. Kevin’s death).
So is Dean acting out of fear or out of love? That is the difference between those two restatements. What do you think? What about Sam? Is he upset because he doesn’t believe his life is worth the sacrifices that have been made? He said he wouldn’t make the same choice and sacrifice the good of the world for Dean’s life. Does he think no one is worth that price? Then why did he tell Castiel that he was right when Cas said nothing was worth Sam’s life (when Cas stopped the fatal procedure of extracting Gadreel’s grace). I am confused by the inconsistency.
In any case, I think Sam wants Dean to objectively weigh the pros and cons the next time he is faced with a life or death scenario for Sam. Given Dean’s make-up, though, can that ever happen (“that’s not in me”)? Is this a realistic expectation of Dean? Is it based on Sam’s poor self-worth? If Dean’s motivation is that he believes the world is better off with Sam alive rather than dead, does that make a difference? I told you I didn’t think it was a very clear “answer”!
New Evidence for Existing Threads
Thank goodness the last two episodes didn’t introduce any new arcs! The prior weeks’ stories gave us enough to track! “Sharp Teeth” and “The Purge” did, however, provide us with several clues that might help us sort through our various theories.
The Mark of Cain – “With the mark comes a great burden, some would say a great cost” (Cain, 9.11). I have stated that I believe this line established the arc for the remainder of season 9 at a minimum. We also discussed how it is probably the thing that reunites the brothers and fixes their relationship once and for all. What does this ominous threat mean, though?
– being immortal? Most of you thought not. The demon in Cain is probably what made him immortal so that wouldn’t apply to Dean.
– becoming evil? Does the mark corrupt the wearer? Cain said that the mark was “from Lucifer himself” which implies that the mark is evil. Perhaps using the First Blade to kill corrupts the soul. Dean’s soul being corrupted and he becoming a demon was a very popular theory at first because it implied that Sam would have to save Dean’s soul. It also redeems Sam from his perceived season 3 failure when he couldn’t save Dean’s soul or keep him from going to Hell. The majority opinion was that Dean will not become a demon, because a) he didn’t knowingly sell his soul as Cain did and b) you have to be dead before becoming a demon. You also observed that Cain seemed to distinguish the part of his story that involved his deal from the burden that comes from the mark.
A related theory was if Dean does become a demon, Sam may have to cure him. This whole scenario would involve Dean becoming a demon without dying or making a deal, but it would lead us back to Sam’s knowledge of how to cure a demon. Slick connection between season 8 and 9 and intriguing plot twist. Cain’s warning to Dean doesn’t completely support it, though. I don’t think Cain would call becoming a demon “a burden” nor do I think he would say some would see it as a great cost – I think all would say losing your soul and becoming evil is a great cost! So I think these theories are interesting, but I’m not entirely convinced yet that Dean will go evil. That doesn’t mean that Dean won’t lose his humanity or his compassion for others, though, by wearing the mark. That leads us to the next possibility…
– becoming a stone cold killer – Crowley described Cain as “The deadliest demon to walk the face of the Earth”. Was that because he was invincible wielding the First Blade, or was it more than that? Will Dean lose his humanity and become an efficient, unfeeling killing machine? There were actually clues in the last three episodes to support this theory. First, Cain said as much when he gave Dean the mark:
Cain: I can give you the mark, Dean if it’s what you truly want.
Dean: What are you talking about?
Cain: The mark can be transferred to someone who’s worthy.
Dean: You mean a killer like you?
Cain: Yes
Dean: Can I use it to kill that bitch?
Cain: Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.
There was an argument that killing doesn’t make someone worthy. Rather, Cain might have meant that Dean’s love of his brother above himself made him worthy. While I like that interpretation, it isn’t supported by Cain answering yes when asked if he meant being a killer was the worthy trait. The second clue came at the end of “First Born”, when Crowley told Dean “He was right, you know. You are worthy.” Crowley knows that Dean has always been a fierce warrior and that his skills were further refined in Purgatory. Crowley even banked that Dean’s fight with the demons would convince Cain to give them the blade (“fight night”). Since Crowley admires competent, formidable opponents, he may be saying that Dean’s combat skills make him “worthy”. This implies Dean’s combat skills were and are the key to using the Mark of Cain.
The third clue was that once Dean took on the Mark of Cain, he was ready to kill monsters without mercy in both “Sharp Teeth” and “The Purge”, not seeing any extenuating circumstances in either case. In “Sharp Teeth” (9.12), Dean was satisfied that he and Sam should kill the whole pack based on the sheriff’s ambush:
Dean: We have all the answers we need.
Sam: I don’t know Dean. I think we need more…[Do we know] Enough to kill Garth? Come on man. Let’s do this right.
Then again in “The Purge” (9.13), Dean was ready to kill a “monster” that had not hurt anyone.
Dean: Once this place clears out, we’re going to make this a family affair.
Sam: Wait, Dean. We’re not going to kill Maritza.
Dean: She’s a monster.
Sam:….Yeah, who saved our asses…I still have a heart.
In both cases, Dean would have blindly killed innocents if Sam hadn’t been there to stop him. This may be revealing a growing coldness in Dean. This reminded me of Soulless!Sam, who had to be monitored, reigned in and told when and why killing wasn’t warranted. In “Sacrifice”, Dean told Sam that they could “turn the tide on the war” without Sam dying to close the Gates of Hell. Dean could now use his new ruthlessness to end demons on Earth, as Cain used his powers to end the Knights of Hell. This would actually appeal to Dean.
This theory would also give Sam the opportunity to “save” Dean because it is Sam who will “keep Dean human”. So Sam would not only be redeeming himself for his failure in season 3, it would also be a reversal of roles of season 6 (see reversal, below).
– exiled from home and all you love? The biblical story reports that Cain was exiled from all he loved. Supernatural’s Cain had to keep moving (demons were hunting him) and he lost his wife, thus he had no home or family. If this solitude is the “great cost”, maybe a supernatural force is pulling Sam away from Dean. This theory only tracks to a point. If Sam is not there to “keep Dean human”, it is likely that Dean would go on a killing spree eliminating demons (back to the stone cold killer scenario). Sam would obviously want to chase him to restore his humanity. If the Cain/Abel parallel continued, Sam would be killed (as Colette was), or the brothers would remain separated probably into season 10. Intriguing plot twist, but I just don’t know if the writers would do that to us or the show!
Given the various possibilities, I’m leaning toward the stone cold killer scenario. How do you interpret the evidence?
– A new consideration about the MoC is how is Dean going to get rid of it? It doesn’t seem likely that it will be a part of his story until the end of the series. A few theories were offered. One idea was that Dean would eventually pass the MoC to someone else. Who would he pass it to, though? I don’t think he would pass it to Crowley because Dean doesn’t trust Crowley and it would make Crowley too powerful. He couldn’t pass it back to Cain because we are right back to him not being able to kill Cain when Cain is wearing the mark. Another idea was that the mark disappears once Abaddon AND Cain are dead, having served its purpose. We have absolutely no clues on this yet, but it is a curious problem.
The First Blade – Cain said, “Your spell brought you to the source of the blade’s power…me. The mark and the blade work together. Without the mark, the blade is useless” (9.11). Then later he said, “Nothing can destroy the blade”. If Dean is the master of an indestructible weapon against evil, this power supports both scenarios where Dean becomes a killer. I don’t think by itself it favors one theory over another, though, so I don’t think it helps us predict the direction of the myth arc.
Reversals – Recent events are ironically giving everyone a different perspective on things. Everyone seems to be reversing roles.
Sam saving Dean. Nice to see that once in a while.
– Dean has a demon mark on him now, even though he is the vessel for the strongest angel; and Sam had angel grace in him even though he is the vessel for the strongest demon.
– In season 5, Sam had to battle Lucifer’s influence. It appears that it may be Dean’s turn to battle Lucifer’s influence since he is bearing his mark. Dean saved Sam. Will Sam save Dean?
– The two supernatural beings, Castiel and Crowley, have learned a lot about what it means to be human by becoming or nearly becoming human. The two humans, Sam and Dean, have been skirting the edges of becoming supernatural, Sam with Gadreel possessing him and Dean now with a supernatural MoC with whatever powers that entails (I cannot find this quote again to give proper credit, sorry!).
– Castiel is now “bonding” with Sam instead of Dean. They are working together to find Gadreel and Metatron, even though Dean said he was going to do that alone.
– Dean is working with Crowley (Crowley will eventually return with the First Blade) to kill Abaddon, so Dean is working with a demon to kill a Knight of Hell. In season 4, it was Sam who worked with the demon Ruby to kill “Lucifer’s First”.
Sam told Dean that they see their roles differently now. Is that the arc? Everyone’s roles are reversed?
Brother’s Relationship – The focus of the last two episodes was clearly the strain in the brother’s relationship. They are changing. The little brother doesn’t want to be protected anymore. He not only wants to be an equal, as he stated openly as early as season 5, he also wants control over his life, from all forces, including Dean. Both brothers are feeling guilty about Kevin. Both brothers are feeling their lives are unworthy. The conversations at the end of the past several episodes are a testament to the pain they are both feeling, within themselves and toward each other. Honesty is a buzz word they are throwing at each other. The Cain and Abel parallel is obvious. One brother (Cain/Dean) condemns himself to save the other brother (Abel/Sam). Castiel 9.11 – “That PB&J taught me that angels can change. Maybe Winchesters can too.” We don’t need clues to see that the brother’s relationship is being changed…the arc is hitting us with sledge hammers!
Redemption – Here are all the threads I have seen about redemption:
– “Sharp Teeth” added Garth to the list of people who are looking for redemption this season. When Dean was leaving, Garth told him, “I screwed up again….I want to make this right. I never should have left you guys, especially Kevin. Kevin was my friend. Friends don’t do that.”
– Sam made several speeches about seeking redemption in season 8. Then most recently in “First Born”, he asked Cas to “Please help me do one thing right”.
– Crowley asked Sam “where do I start to even look for forgiveness” at the end of season 8. Could Cain’s retirement be foreshadowing a possible redemption road for Crowley? It was Crowley who realized that Colette’s request “To Stop” was enough to save Cain.
– Castiel admitted to his need for redemption when he said to Sam in “First Born”, “The only person who has screwed things up more consistently than you, is me”.
– Gadreel is desperately seeking redemption for his one, catastrophic mistake. I think it will be the end of the season before we know if Gadreel is a “good guy” or a “bad guy”. He might be smarter than he appears, and he really does have a grand plan to defeat Metatron and restore Heaven, or he might have limits to how far he will go against his own values. Either way, it is clear that his motivation is and will be his own redemption.
So we are left with Dean. How will redemption play into his storyline?
Letting Go –The idea of letting go was mentioned twice during “Sharp Teeth”!
Garth: I found it. Love, and a family. Who cares where that comes from?
Dean: I do.
Garth: I get it. When I first got here, I couldn’t let go either. I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. When it didn’t, I had to accept the truth.
Then when Dean was leaving Garth and family, Dean said:
“Who cares where happiness comes from? Look, we’re all a little weird, we’re all a little wacky. Some more than others but if it works, it works. You’ve got something here…. Don’t let that go…You’ll never forgive yourself.”
It seemed like Dean was taking his own advice when he later decided to ask Sam if they could work together again.
Existing Threads (no new clues this time)
Will someone else turn out to be who they aren’t supposed to be?
- Dean is Cain;
- Sam was Ezekiel who was really Gadreel.
- Castiel, a leader of angels, became human. He is now an angel again, but powered by Theo’s grace
- Crowley, the king of hell, is semi-human
“You’ve seen everything that he’s seen!” – Sam might have knowledge from Gadreel to use against Metatron.
Why did Crowley want Kevin’s blood instead of Sam’s? Prophet’s blood? Different tasting human blood? Toying with Kevin? It will probably be a while before we get more clues on this.
Is The Angel Banishing Spell Reversible – Is Crowley the key, because he read the Angel Tablet, or is Castiel’s grace the key? Cat offered an observation on this from 9.11: “Crowley seemed very sure that Dean wouldn’t kill him even after killing Abaddon. Considering Dean’s current mindset and the fact that he is becoming more powerful and dangerous to demons than he ever was, Crowley couldn’t be that positive unless he knows that Dean will need him. Maybe Crowley does know how to reverse Metatron’s spell.”
“I did what I had to do.” I am waiting to hear Dean say this to Sam at some point in the future!
“Here is the FIRST name on your to-do list.” – I’m sure the new names will give us insights into Metatron’s ultimate plan.
Curiosities
Sam looks …..curious, doesn’t he? I thought so!
– 9.12 Garth: “I messed up…..I was embarrassed. I thought it was best for everyone if I just stayed away.” I thought this was an alternate explanation as to why Dean left Sam on that pier. It was soon after this conversation that Dean tried to reconcile with Sam.
– 9.12 Dean to Garth: “Besides, somebody’s got to live to tell this damn story someday. Who better than you?” I hated hearing that line! It sounded like someone, somewhere was starting to think about how to end the series!
– Spoiler** Both episodes were about families of monsters finding a way to “coexist” with humans. Part of each family peacefully coexisted while another part of the family wanted to embrace their inner monster and feed off of or destroy humans. This seems to be a blatant build up to the spin-off pilot.
– Loved how Sam just caught the flashlight that Dean tossed to him in 9.13. Seamless teamwork, and honed reflexes!
– When Dean was searching the storeroom in the basement of the spa (9.13), the background sound appeared to be growling animals (sounded like lions). I thought that was really weird, and noticeable. They didn’t use that sound for Sam’s search. I found that very curious…Dean was the predator.
– I wondered about the whole revenge dialogue in 9.12. Did it simply refer back to John Winchester, or was it a warning about chasing Gadreel?
Reverend Jim: The road to revenge is a dark and lonely one, which you never get off. And that hole in the pit of your stomach…your never fill it…ever.
Dean: Yeah, I know. I get it.
Reverend Jim: So I chose to look forward, not backward.
– I didn’t mention this before, but in 9.11 Cain seemed to be able to kill by “smiting” other demons, much the same as angels can kill by laying their hands on their victims. Cain’s glow of death is red. Crowley “essence” is red. Is this a clue to Crowley’s identity and another parallel between Cain and Crowley?
Your turn. I’ve laid out many different interpretations of what people said in the last two episodes. What are your best guesses on our current theories and the season’s direction now? The problem? Dean and the Mark? The brothers? Letting Go?
Screencaps courtesy of www.homeofthenutty.com
I don’t think I have any answers to the questions and theories you posit so thoroughly and so well. Its been difficult for me, reading and observing so much doubt and angst amongst the fandom. People feel so strongly and deeply about this program that I can’t help but sympathize.
The question that I have been asking myself is, “Is Art supposed to be Easy?”
I first had to think about whether a TV program could be considered art. The degree to which this one engages and challenges its viewers, and the passion and pride with which its creators imbue it, makes my answer an unequivocal “yes”.
Having said that, I believe that art can be at its best when it is provoking us emotionally and intellectually. I’m not sure that the emotions we experience when the characters we relate with so strongly suffer, or the doubt and uncertainty we feel when the writers are taking the story in an unexpected (or possibly undesirable) direction are necessarily negative.
I am glad that I am not directly part of the creative process, and I enjoy being challenged (even when it’s uncomfortable), because for me these are an integral part of enjoying, and appreciating, art.
I don’t think I have any answers to the questions and theories you posit so thoroughly and so well. Its been difficult for me, reading and observing so much doubt and angst amongst the fandom. People feel so strongly and deeply about this program that I can’t help but sympathize.
The question that I have been asking myself is, “Is Art supposed to be Easy?”
I first had to think about whether a TV program could be considered art. The degree to which this one engages and challenges its viewers, and the passion and pride with which its creators imbue it, makes my answer an unequivocal “yes”.
Having said that, I believe that art can be at its best when it is provoking us emotionally and intellectually. I’m not sure that the emotions we experience when the characters we relate with so strongly suffer, or the doubt and uncertainty we feel when the writers are taking the story in an unexpected (or possibly undesirable) direction are necessarily negative.
I am glad that I am not directly part of the creative process, and I enjoy being challenged (even when it’s uncomfortable), because for me these are an integral part of enjoying, and appreciating, art.
Oh Nightsky. Sam is so underwritten that nothing is ever clear with him. I don’t think Dean thinks that the world is better with Dean in it. I think that Dean thinks that HIS world is better with Sam in it.
I think that Sam’s problem is how far Dean will go to keep him alive, the lives losts, disrespecting his wishes and doing something that Dean knew Sam would rather die than abide. Also, I think it’s about how much Dean hurts Sam on a personal level when he makes those crazy decisions without considering what it would do to Sam. We didn’t see much of Sam’s pain over Kevin dying by his own hand, but after his plea to Death, it must have been devastating.
And, in spite of all of that, Dean would do it again. That’s the problem.
Off to read the rest of your threads…. Great stuff.
Oh Nightsky. Sam is so underwritten that nothing is ever clear with him. I don’t think Dean thinks that the world is better with Dean in it. I think that Dean thinks that HIS world is better with Sam in it.
I think that Sam’s problem is how far Dean will go to keep him alive, the lives losts, disrespecting his wishes and doing something that Dean knew Sam would rather die than abide. Also, I think it’s about how much Dean hurts Sam on a personal level when he makes those crazy decisions without considering what it would do to Sam. We didn’t see much of Sam’s pain over Kevin dying by his own hand, but after his plea to Death, it must have been devastating.
And, in spite of all of that, Dean would do it again. That’s the problem.
Off to read the rest of your threads…. Great stuff.
Argh. I meant “… is better with Sam in it.”
Argh. I meant “… is better with Sam in it.”
Maybe, in the end, the point of all this will be that the brothers really did need to be together to save the world and Sam needed to stay alive because his life is valuable beyond what he sees and not just to keep his brother company.
Maybe, in the end, the point of all this will be that the brothers really did need to be together to save the world and Sam needed to stay alive because his life is valuable beyond what he sees and not just to keep his brother company.
Prix68 I think that is what Cas was trying to say to Sam. As he said even someone as stubborn as a Winchester might learn that they don’t have to run towards death.
Prix68 I think that is what Cas was trying to say to Sam. As he said even someone as stubborn as a Winchester might learn that they don’t have to run towards death.
Lots of food for thought here NightSky, and I have been quite “thinky” myself lately 🙂 (AWHP)..
Quote:
– A new consideration about the MoC is how is Dean going to get rid of it?
My thoughts- please forgive me if this falls under the category “too soon”, but…
Ooh, what if Supernatural ended with the Winchester brothers finding a way of living in peace while Dean passes on the Mark of Cain to um, maybe…
A lone figure out in the dark with the demons, fighting for survival. One man’ s walk into the Valley of Death. He shall fear no evil.
Title of new series***: “Fear No Evil”. ***or film
– a way for Sam and Dean to retire from full on hunting ( just deal with those that are left that mess with them.)
This would also leave a way back for the Winchesters having to be called back into the fray for the blockbuster movie that I would love to see, and
1. Sam and Dean don’t die.
2. Winchesters can return at later stage
3. Jared and Jensen get to make films.
I don’t want to see the end of Supernatural. It is a work of art and genius. However, if you love something enough you have to be prepared to let it go. I believe this true love will return …in evolved form of Supernatural: The Movie
ERIC KRIPKE, JEREMY CARVER, BOB SINGER
– CAN YOU HEAR ME??
Lots of love, Sue Nash …… @suenash19
Lots of food for thought here NightSky, and I have been quite “thinky” myself lately 🙂 (AWHP)..
Quote:
– A new consideration about the MoC is how is Dean going to get rid of it?
My thoughts- please forgive me if this falls under the category “too soon”, but…
Ooh, what if Supernatural ended with the Winchester brothers finding a way of living in peace while Dean passes on the Mark of Cain to um, maybe…
A lone figure out in the dark with the demons, fighting for survival. One man’ s walk into the Valley of Death. He shall fear no evil.
Title of new series***: “Fear No Evil”. ***or film
– a way for Sam and Dean to retire from full on hunting ( just deal with those that are left that mess with them.)
This would also leave a way back for the Winchesters having to be called back into the fray for the blockbuster movie that I would love to see, and
1. Sam and Dean don’t die.
2. Winchesters can return at later stage
3. Jared and Jensen get to make films.
I don’t want to see the end of Supernatural. It is a work of art and genius. However, if you love something enough you have to be prepared to let it go. I believe this true love will return …in evolved form of Supernatural: The Movie
ERIC KRIPKE, JEREMY CARVER, BOB SINGER
– CAN YOU HEAR ME??
Lots of love, Sue Nash …… @suenash19
suenash19 The end of Supernatural! Blasphemy! I don’t think I love them enough to let them go. 😥
suenash19 The end of Supernatural! Blasphemy! I don’t think I love them enough to let them go. 😥
cheryl42@7- 🙂 Me either! 🙁
cheryl42@7- 🙂 Me either! 🙁
This thread is like crack for me. Pardon me if I get wordy, I’ll try to break it up into bitesize chunks.
So if I try to restate “the problem” more precisely, it could be:
Dean is so afraid of being alone that he keeps Sam alive, regardless of the consequences…
Stated differently, though, changes the problem:
Dean loves and believes in Sam so much that he keeps him alive, regardless of the consequences…
Actually I think THIS is the problem. Specifically that one brother sees what Dean does in one way while the other sees it differently.
This thread is like crack for me. Pardon me if I get wordy, I’ll try to break it up into bitesize chunks.
So if I try to restate “the problem” more precisely, it could be:
Dean is so afraid of being alone that he keeps Sam alive, regardless of the consequences…
Stated differently, though, changes the problem:
Dean loves and believes in Sam so much that he keeps him alive, regardless of the consequences…
Actually I think THIS is the problem. Specifically that one brother sees what Dean does in one way while the other sees it differently.
[quote name=”Nightsky”]
The Mark of Cain
– being immortal?
– becoming evil?
– becoming a stone cold killer
– exiled from home and all you love
[/quote]
I’m one of those who thinks becoming immortal is an option because I think it fits the “cost” right. Eventually he’ll be virtually exiled from all he loves as they die off. I think it has to do with his physical body. I think that’s Cain’s original body so I think transferring the mark will allow it to finally be killed. While Cain ALSO is a demon, I think the phrase “Father of Murder” is relevant too. The issue comes down to sequence. If the sequence was:
– got the mark & killed his brother
– THEN became a demon
then being a demon is not a consequence of the mark, being a killer is.
Which brings me to the becoming evil option. I certainly think that plays well from a narrative perspective, as does becoming a stone cold killer but it violates the Free Will emphasis of the entire show’s premise. Perhaps by using his Free Will to take on the Mark, Dean has made a choice that leads to an evil path but I guess I would expect that to be more of an overt choice versus a “burden/cost”. “Burden/cost” imply doing a job that sucks. THAT fits Dean’s history. And saving him from this fate is still something Sam can do.
[quote]
The Mark of Cain
– being immortal?
– becoming evil?
– becoming a stone cold killer
– exiled from home and all you love
[/quote]
I’m one of those who thinks becoming immortal is an option because I think it fits the “cost” right. Eventually he’ll be virtually exiled from all he loves as they die off. I think it has to do with his physical body. I think that’s Cain’s original body so I think transferring the mark will allow it to finally be killed. While Cain ALSO is a demon, I think the phrase “Father of Murder” is relevant too. The issue comes down to sequence. If the sequence was:
– got the mark & killed his brother
– THEN became a demon
then being a demon is not a consequence of the mark, being a killer is.
Which brings me to the becoming evil option. I certainly think that plays well from a narrative perspective, as does becoming a stone cold killer but it violates the Free Will emphasis of the entire show’s premise. Perhaps by using his Free Will to take on the Mark, Dean has made a choice that leads to an evil path but I guess I would expect that to be more of an overt choice versus a “burden/cost”. “Burden/cost” imply doing a job that sucks. THAT fits Dean’s history. And saving him from this fate is still something Sam can do.
#9I think one brother wants unconditional trust and the other wants unconditional love.
#9I think one brother wants unconditional trust and the other wants unconditional love.
Vashti: Very insightful and well said. Creating art is rarely easy and often it evokes strong emotion in those who appreciate it. Sometimes making the reader or viewer uncomfortable is exactly what is intended…and needed. That is partially what I was thinking when I wrote the Dear Jeremy letter. On a larger scale, social justice, political change and spiritual growth often come from artistic works that make people uncomfortable. I think several viewers are struggling though with whether they want “growth” from their “entertainment”. It is very hard to feel good when the brothers keep breaking our hearts!
Vashti: Very insightful and well said. Creating art is rarely easy and often it evokes strong emotion in those who appreciate it. Sometimes making the reader or viewer uncomfortable is exactly what is intended…and needed. That is partially what I was thinking when I wrote the Dear Jeremy letter. On a larger scale, social justice, political change and spiritual growth often come from artistic works that make people uncomfortable. I think several viewers are struggling though with whether they want “growth” from their “entertainment”. It is very hard to feel good when the brothers keep breaking our hearts!
[quote name=”JuliaG”]
I think that Sam’s problem is how far Dean will go to keep him alive, the lives losts, disrespecting his wishes and doing something that Dean knew Sam would rather die than abide. Also, I think it’s about how much Dean hurts Sam on a personal level when he makes those crazy decisions without considering what it would do to Sam. And, in spite of all of that, Dean would do it again. That’s the problem.
Off to read the rest of your threads…. Great stuff.[/quote]
Glad you are enjoying Threads! Love your input!
[quote]
I think that Sam’s problem is how far Dean will go to keep him alive, the lives losts, disrespecting his wishes and doing something that Dean knew Sam would rather die than abide. Also, I think it’s about how much Dean hurts Sam on a personal level when he makes those crazy decisions without considering what it would do to Sam. And, in spite of all of that, Dean would do it again. That’s the problem.
Off to read the rest of your threads…. Great stuff.[/quote]
Glad you are enjoying Threads! Love your input!
[quote name=”Prix68″]Maybe, in the end, the point of all this will be that the brothers really did need to be together to save the world and Sam needed to stay alive because his life is valuable beyond what he sees and not just to keep his brother company.[/quote]
I actually strongly believe this to be true. We won’t see it until the last ep of the last season, though. I hope it is a LONG time from now.
[quote]Maybe, in the end, the point of all this will be that the brothers really did need to be together to save the world and Sam needed to stay alive because his life is valuable beyond what he sees and not just to keep his brother company.[/quote]
I actually strongly believe this to be true. We won’t see it until the last ep of the last season, though. I hope it is a LONG time from now.
SueNash: I agree with everything you said…but I’m in no rush for it to happen!
SueNash: I agree with everything you said…but I’m in no rush for it to happen!
I’m still baffled by Sam saying ‘You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero’ – we have seen so many times that however Dean regards what he does it’s isn’t as being that kind of self-aggrandising superhero who ‘swoops in’ as Sam says and arrogantly thinks he can do all the rescuing single-handed. Do the writers really think that’s who Dean is? Does Sam?
I’m still baffled by Sam saying ‘You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero’ – we have seen so many times that however Dean regards what he does it’s isn’t as being that kind of self-aggrandising superhero who ‘swoops in’ as Sam says and arrogantly thinks he can do all the rescuing single-handed. Do the writers really think that’s who Dean is? Does Sam?
But Dean does think of himself as Sam’s guardian. And in that role it is his responsibility to save Sam no matter the cost as Dean sees it. That has been the case since S1 ep1. That is why Dean said he would do it again. It is his job. Sam used strong terms with Dean because imo he thought that this time Dean had gone way to far. Also Sam felt that as he said everything that has gone wrong between us is because we are brothers. The lengths that they will go to for each other is too much. I took that to mean that the big brother savior role isn’t working and it has to change. The collateral damage is too great. The question is what now. I think Dean is going to go to a very dark place because he heard like most of the fandom that Sam doesn’t love him enough to save him. Of course that is not what Sam said. He said I love you enough “same circumstances” to never do that to you.
But Dean does think of himself as Sam’s guardian. And in that role it is his responsibility to save Sam no matter the cost as Dean sees it. That has been the case since S1 ep1. That is why Dean said he would do it again. It is his job. Sam used strong terms with Dean because imo he thought that this time Dean had gone way to far. Also Sam felt that as he said everything that has gone wrong between us is because we are brothers. The lengths that they will go to for each other is too much. I took that to mean that the big brother savior role isn’t working and it has to change. The collateral damage is too great. The question is what now. I think Dean is going to go to a very dark place because he heard like most of the fandom that Sam doesn’t love him enough to save him. Of course that is not what Sam said. He said I love you enough “same circumstances” to never do that to you.
These issued with both brothers are actually old issues that has been there ever since the pilot. Time and time again we’ve seen Dean kill or willing to kill human to safe Sam. Sam’s desire to be independent and in control over his own life has been there ever since the pilot. One of the reason why he left for Standford. So, it’s not new.
In 1.22, it was revealed that the human possessed by demons could still be alive (proved by Meg who’s still alive after they exorcised the demon) but then Dean just shot Meg’s brother to death using the very valuable bullet to save Sam, regardless of the human the demon was possessing at the time.
In, Croatoan, Salvation, Devil’s Trap, we hear Dean said that he doesn’t want to do it alone that’s why he went and fetch Sam at Standford. He was willing to never be able to kill YED or let the Hell’s gate open if it cost Sam’s life. He also stated that he’s worried of what he’d be willing to do to save his family. Now, we’ve seen the length of what Dean do to keep the only remaining family he has alive.
The problem here is IMO Dean doesn’t see Heaven as a final resting place, he kinda despise it (perhaps because the Heaven he saw back then was rigged by Zachariah). The knowledge that if Sam die he’ll probably go to heaven doesn’t appeal to him. Dean thinks Heaven suck! The best plane for him is on earth, driving the crazy road with his brother by his side. That’s Dean’s idea of Heaven. If he can he’d glue himself to Sam so Sam won’t go anywhere without him. This level of co-dependency is destructive.
Sam thought Heaven is a nice enough place to rest. He won’t mind to die and go to Heaven. And if the circumstances was the same and Dean is facing death, Sam will let him go because Dean will finally rest in peace in Heaven, maybe shooting the breeze with Bobby. That means Sam is sure that Dean will go to Heaven when he die because he is always sure that Dean deserves Heaven. Sam is the one who always think of himself as tainted (demon blood and Lucifer’s vessel as opposed to Dean being Micheal’s vessel).
Dean has always has a mean streak. Always kill first ask question later kind of guy. He wanted to kill Lenore and her coven and refused to hear Sam’s reason. He killed Amy. Dean has always trying to look at the world in black and white. Kill Monster, save human. Only after his stint in Purgatory his view on Monster is shifted a bit. So, the way I see it, Dean’s cold assessment on Monster during 9.12 and 9.13 is still Dean’s normal level of hunter’s instinct. One that he has portrayed since the pilot. He has been like that since season 1.
If they want to show how the MoC is getting a hold of Dean, I need to see something more drastic than that. Something that’s waaayyyy much darker and colder that Dean’s usual act.
These issued with both brothers are actually old issues that has been there ever since the pilot. Time and time again we’ve seen Dean kill or willing to kill human to safe Sam. Sam’s desire to be independent and in control over his own life has been there ever since the pilot. One of the reason why he left for Standford. So, it’s not new.
In 1.22, it was revealed that the human possessed by demons could still be alive (proved by Meg who’s still alive after they exorcised the demon) but then Dean just shot Meg’s brother to death using the very valuable bullet to save Sam, regardless of the human the demon was possessing at the time.
In, Croatoan, Salvation, Devil’s Trap, we hear Dean said that he doesn’t want to do it alone that’s why he went and fetch Sam at Standford. He was willing to never be able to kill YED or let the Hell’s gate open if it cost Sam’s life. He also stated that he’s worried of what he’d be willing to do to save his family. Now, we’ve seen the length of what Dean do to keep the only remaining family he has alive.
The problem here is IMO Dean doesn’t see Heaven as a final resting place, he kinda despise it (perhaps because the Heaven he saw back then was rigged by Zachariah). The knowledge that if Sam die he’ll probably go to heaven doesn’t appeal to him. Dean thinks Heaven suck! The best plane for him is on earth, driving the crazy road with his brother by his side. That’s Dean’s idea of Heaven. If he can he’d glue himself to Sam so Sam won’t go anywhere without him. This level of co-dependency is destructive.
Sam thought Heaven is a nice enough place to rest. He won’t mind to die and go to Heaven. And if the circumstances was the same and Dean is facing death, Sam will let him go because Dean will finally rest in peace in Heaven, maybe shooting the breeze with Bobby. That means Sam is sure that Dean will go to Heaven when he die because he is always sure that Dean deserves Heaven. Sam is the one who always think of himself as tainted (demon blood and Lucifer’s vessel as opposed to Dean being Micheal’s vessel).
Dean has always has a mean streak. Always kill first ask question later kind of guy. He wanted to kill Lenore and her coven and refused to hear Sam’s reason. He killed Amy. Dean has always trying to look at the world in black and white. Kill Monster, save human. Only after his stint in Purgatory his view on Monster is shifted a bit. So, the way I see it, Dean’s cold assessment on Monster during 9.12 and 9.13 is still Dean’s normal level of hunter’s instinct. One that he has portrayed since the pilot. He has been like that since season 1.
If they want to show how the MoC is getting a hold of Dean, I need to see something more drastic than that. Something that’s waaayyyy much darker and colder that Dean’s usual act.
I agree with you kaj–except the Dean despising Heaven part. The look of pure contentment, maybe even downright joy, on Jensen’s face when Dean realizes the memory was him and Sam as kids enjoying the fireworks was a pleasantly painful surprise after the episode’s brutal first moments. I think he despised the trip later when he saw Sam’s memories didn’t include him, or John, and it registered as “Sam is happier without me.” It’s where the story is now. It’ll be interesting to see where it goes, but we can be certain it will heart-breaking to a lot of fans.
[b]HEY! SPEAKING OF JOHN![/b] One thing has been bugging me for weeks now: in John’s “Bad Day at Black Rock” storage room Dean reads off to Crowley that his dad and Tara got it out of Crowley’s pet that the archangels used the First Blade to kill the Knights. So John [i]knew[/i] about angels and didn’t tell his sons? In “Houses of the Holy” Dean vehemently denies their existence. It isn’t until Cas shows up in season four’s “Lazarus Rising” that we realize the truth. Somebody got a ‘canon ball’ idea?
As for the Mark itself: I approach it with caution, leery of the details, and suspect breath-stopping, edge-of-seat suspense await during the next mention of it.
Other randomness: In the promo pix ([url]hulu.com/supernatural[/url]) for the season they’ve got Jensen in a sleek, sexy motorcycle jacket. When is [i]that[/i] going to turn up?! I miss him wearing the MacGyver jacket. I noticed Crowley’s burning rose–that was cool. Glad Cas has his trench coat back. Also, Jared is the only one not looking at the camera. Shame? Guilt? Certainly not shyness over a shirt so tight it looks painted on! 😀
I agree with you kaj–except the Dean despising Heaven part. The look of pure contentment, maybe even downright joy, on Jensen’s face when Dean realizes the memory was him and Sam as kids enjoying the fireworks was a pleasantly painful surprise after the episode’s brutal first moments. I think he despised the trip later when he saw Sam’s memories didn’t include him, or John, and it registered as “Sam is happier without me.” It’s where the story is now. It’ll be interesting to see where it goes, but we can be certain it will heart-breaking to a lot of fans.
[b]HEY! SPEAKING OF JOHN![/b] One thing has been bugging me for weeks now: in John’s “Bad Day at Black Rock” storage room Dean reads off to Crowley that his dad and Tara got it out of Crowley’s pet that the archangels used the First Blade to kill the Knights. So John [i]knew[/i] about angels and didn’t tell his sons? In “Houses of the Holy” Dean vehemently denies their existence. It isn’t until Cas shows up in season four’s “Lazarus Rising” that we realize the truth. Somebody got a ‘canon ball’ idea?
As for the Mark itself: I approach it with caution, leery of the details, and suspect breath-stopping, edge-of-seat suspense await during the next mention of it.
Other randomness: In the promo pix ([url]hulu.com/supernatural[/url]) for the season they’ve got Jensen in a sleek, sexy motorcycle jacket. When is [i]that[/i] going to turn up?! I miss him wearing the MacGyver jacket. I noticed Crowley’s burning rose–that was cool. Glad Cas has his trench coat back. Also, Jared is the only one not looking at the camera. Shame? Guilt? Certainly not shyness over a shirt so tight it looks painted on! 😀
[quote name=”Puck”]
[b]HEY! SPEAKING OF JOHN![/b] One thing has been bugging me for weeks now: in John’s “Bad Day at Black Rock” storage room Dean reads off to Crowley that his dad and Tara got it out of Crowley’s pet that the archangels used the First Blade to kill the Knights. So John [i]knew[/i] about angels and didn’t tell his sons? [/quote]
Tara’s quote from “First Born”:[i] “The demon said the archangels used a weapon that could kill the Knights of Hell. We’d never heard of anything like the Knights of Hell or a First Blade. Your dad thought he was lying, trying to save himself.” [/i]John completely dismissed what the demon told them. He didn’t believe a word of it, so that’s why he didn’t record it or tell the boys about it.
[quote name=”Puck”]
Other randomness: In the promo pix ([url]hulu.com/supernatural[/url]) for the season they’ve got Jensen in a sleek, sexy motorcycle jacket. When is [i]that[/i] going to turn up?!… Also, Jared is the only one not looking at the camera. Shame? Guilt? Certainly not shyness over a shirt so tight it looks painted on! :D[/quote]
LOL! I’m all in for the leather jacket too! I am going to go back and look at that promo pic of Sam. I love the retro-analysis of the promos. The discussion a few weeks ago of the colors used in their cages was fascinating. I just listened again today to the pre-season interviews with Jensen and Jared on the CW web sites. Jensen mentioned the solidarity of the brothers as a key point of S9. It is interesting to remember that they also did not know where the season’s plot would go.
[quote]
[b]HEY! SPEAKING OF JOHN![/b] One thing has been bugging me for weeks now: in John’s “Bad Day at Black Rock” storage room Dean reads off to Crowley that his dad and Tara got it out of Crowley’s pet that the archangels used the First Blade to kill the Knights. So John [i]knew[/i] about angels and didn’t tell his sons? [/quote]
Tara’s quote from “First Born”:[i] “The demon said the archangels used a weapon that could kill the Knights of Hell. We’d never heard of anything like the Knights of Hell or a First Blade. Your dad thought he was lying, trying to save himself.” [/i]John completely dismissed what the demon told them. He didn’t believe a word of it, so that’s why he didn’t record it or tell the boys about it.
[quote]
Other randomness: In the promo pix ([url]hulu.com/supernatural[/url]) for the season they’ve got Jensen in a sleek, sexy motorcycle jacket. When is [i]that[/i] going to turn up?!… Also, Jared is the only one not looking at the camera. Shame? Guilt? Certainly not shyness over a shirt so tight it looks painted on! :D[/quote]
LOL! I’m all in for the leather jacket too! I am going to go back and look at that promo pic of Sam. I love the retro-analysis of the promos. The discussion a few weeks ago of the colors used in their cages was fascinating. I just listened again today to the pre-season interviews with Jensen and Jared on the CW web sites. Jensen mentioned the solidarity of the brothers as a key point of S9. It is interesting to remember that they also did not know where the season’s plot would go.