Threads: Supernatural 9.11 – “First Born”

86 Comments

1. A correction on the MOL and Abbadon. She had possessed Larry’s wife or housekeeper (whatever role she was supposed to be playing) not Larry so she may have seen some of the coordinates but not sure she knows exactly where the bunker is.

   I’ve also read some people saying something about Dean becoming demon now but he has a warding tatoo that should not permit that kind of possession. Just thinking and hoping out loud that that cannot happen.

   I think, for myself, that each season the angst is getting more and more intense. The situations are more involved and that is what keeps this show fresh and keeps us coming back for more.

   I am scared as hell for Dean. I’m hopeful for Sam that Cas will turn his guilt around and help him see he is not bad and responsible for everything that has happened. Crowley is still a douche bag but love him anyway. Cain is a new twist that I kind of like so far. He’s another one of those evils that one can actually like (similar to Crowley). Then there is Gadreel where I find myself hoping he turns out to be good and helps to defeat Metatron and get the angels back into heaven. I know I’m living in a dream world but there is just no predicting this story because they always throw the twists and turns and surprises at us so I don’t even try to think I know where it is going. I’m just along for the ride and enjoying it completely. 🙂

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2. A correction on the MOL and Abbadon. She had possessed Larry’s wife or housekeeper (whatever role she was supposed to be playing) not Larry so she may have seen some of the coordinates but not sure she knows exactly where the bunker is.

   I’ve also read some people saying something about Dean becoming demon now but he has a warding tatoo that should not permit that kind of possession. Just thinking and hoping out loud that that cannot happen.

   I think, for myself, that each season the angst is getting more and more intense. The situations are more involved and that is what keeps this show fresh and keeps us coming back for more.

   I am scared as hell for Dean. I’m hopeful for Sam that Cas will turn his guilt around and help him see he is not bad and responsible for everything that has happened. Crowley is still a douche bag but love him anyway. Cain is a new twist that I kind of like so far. He’s another one of those evils that one can actually like (similar to Crowley). Then there is Gadreel where I find myself hoping he turns out to be good and helps to defeat Metatron and get the angels back into heaven. I know I’m living in a dream world but there is just no predicting this story because they always throw the twists and turns and surprises at us so I don’t even try to think I know where it is going. I’m just along for the ride and enjoying it completely. 🙂

   Reply

3. [quote]The only person who has screwed things up more consistently than you, is me”.[/quote]

   I hate that quote. Cas telling Sam that he is really nothing but a failure bugs me. Not one word of Sam fixing his mistakes or the good he’s done. Just one more reminder that Sam isn’t good.

   I also note that Cain killed Abel BEFORE Abel was corrupted. Like Dean he did not believe that Abel would make the right choice and he killed him rather than trust him.

   On a lighter note I’m calling it Dean/Cain and lobbying for Terry Hatcher to be a guest star. In fact, I wish she had played Celeste.

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4. [quote]The only person who has screwed things up more consistently than you, is me”.[/quote]

   I hate that quote. Cas telling Sam that he is really nothing but a failure bugs me. Not one word of Sam fixing his mistakes or the good he’s done. Just one more reminder that Sam isn’t good.

   I also note that Cain killed Abel BEFORE Abel was corrupted. Like Dean he did not believe that Abel would make the right choice and he killed him rather than trust him.

   On a lighter note I’m calling it Dean/Cain and lobbying for Terry Hatcher to be a guest star. In fact, I wish she had played Celeste.

   Reply

5. I love reading your “threads” Nightsky. You’ve given me lots to think about.

   I don’t think that Cas not letting Sam sacrifice himself will help Sam forgive Dean. The two situations are different. Sam seems to be the most upset about all the lying and Cas didn’t lie. Also, last time, Sam wasn’t risking his life for the cause. He was dying and didn’t want to be brought back by supernatural means and Dean did it anyways. That’s completely different.

   Sam will forgive though, I’m not worried about that. He ALWAYS forgive.

   And I can’t help you with the Sam dialogue. Like so many times, I hear the words, but I have no idea what he’s saying. He still feels like he can’t do anything right. That’s about all I got from the dialogue. The rest didn’t make any sense.

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6. I love reading your “threads” Nightsky. You’ve given me lots to think about.

   I don’t think that Cas not letting Sam sacrifice himself will help Sam forgive Dean. The two situations are different. Sam seems to be the most upset about all the lying and Cas didn’t lie. Also, last time, Sam wasn’t risking his life for the cause. He was dying and didn’t want to be brought back by supernatural means and Dean did it anyways. That’s completely different.

   Sam will forgive though, I’m not worried about that. He ALWAYS forgive.

   And I can’t help you with the Sam dialogue. Like so many times, I hear the words, but I have no idea what he’s saying. He still feels like he can’t do anything right. That’s about all I got from the dialogue. The rest didn’t make any sense.

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7. Taiwan, I did watch the show from the beginning and it does feel as shocking as all the other game changing episodes. I do remember yelling at my TV when John sold his soul and the Colt to the YED, when Sam died and then I think there was a small hiatus where everyone was on pins and needles and then Dean sold his soul and that was pretty shocking. Right up tip the end of three we all held out hope that they would save Dean and when he actually went to Hell, it was pretty shocking -to watch him die and then watchhim in Hell. When we found out he’d been Alastair ‘s protege and had broken the First Seal was pretty shocking to me. I remember watching that scene with hand over mouth surprise so yeah! watching it in real time definitely gave everybody feels, just like now.

   Ctr, Deans ward doesn’t keep him from becoming a demon. I think it just keeps demons out of him. I still have an awful feeling about it though. Would it be possible for him to pass the Mark to someone else, like Crowley?

   I can understand about confusion around the things Sam says. There are a number of things he syas that are pretty cryptic or can be interpreted in multiple ways which can make his dialogue very puzzling, but I enjoy teasing out Sam’s meanings anyway. I’m usually about half right about those.

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8. Taiwan, I did watch the show from the beginning and it does feel as shocking as all the other game changing episodes. I do remember yelling at my TV when John sold his soul and the Colt to the YED, when Sam died and then I think there was a small hiatus where everyone was on pins and needles and then Dean sold his soul and that was pretty shocking. Right up tip the end of three we all held out hope that they would save Dean and when he actually went to Hell, it was pretty shocking -to watch him die and then watchhim in Hell. When we found out he’d been Alastair ‘s protege and had broken the First Seal was pretty shocking to me. I remember watching that scene with hand over mouth surprise so yeah! watching it in real time definitely gave everybody feels, just like now.

   Ctr, Deans ward doesn’t keep him from becoming a demon. I think it just keeps demons out of him. I still have an awful feeling about it though. Would it be possible for him to pass the Mark to someone else, like Crowley?

   I can understand about confusion around the things Sam says. There are a number of things he syas that are pretty cryptic or can be interpreted in multiple ways which can make his dialogue very puzzling, but I enjoy teasing out Sam’s meanings anyway. I’m usually about half right about those.

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9. Please forgive my Kindle typos. :sigh:
   Can something be put on her so we can correct our spelling before hitting “send “?

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10. Please forgive my Kindle typos. :sigh:
    Can something be put on her so we can correct our spelling before hitting “send “?

    Reply

11. I agree with percy about Sam always being told he’s a faiilure. So sad.

    I’m gonna do a prediction. Dean’s soul will be corrupted. He’ll become a demon. And Sam will die ‘curing’ (saving) Dean.

    I’m not sure why Can (and now Dean) is lauded for selling his soul – freely and willingly to Lucifer and becoming a demon simply because Abel was talking to Lucifer. Cain became the ‘pet’

    But does anyone think that thaqt was the plan all along? The self sacrificing big brother was the target allo along? Just ‘talk’ to the younger brother adn the big brother….havibg bsolutely NO faith in his sibling to do the right thing – will sell themselves to evil in a nanosecond?

    Evil gets what evil wants….always.

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12. I agree with percy about Sam always being told he’s a faiilure. So sad.

    I’m gonna do a prediction. Dean’s soul will be corrupted. He’ll become a demon. And Sam will die ‘curing’ (saving) Dean.

    I’m not sure why Can (and now Dean) is lauded for selling his soul – freely and willingly to Lucifer and becoming a demon simply because Abel was talking to Lucifer. Cain became the ‘pet’

    But does anyone think that thaqt was the plan all along? The self sacrificing big brother was the target allo along? Just ‘talk’ to the younger brother adn the big brother….havibg bsolutely NO faith in his sibling to do the right thing – will sell themselves to evil in a nanosecond?

    Evil gets what evil wants….always.

    Reply

13. [quote name=”amyh”]I’m gonna do a prediction. Dean’s soul will be corrupted. He’ll become a demon. And Sam will die ‘curing’ (saving) Dean.[/quote]

    I had the same thought. (Saw your post just as I was about to punch in mine.) Dean, a demon. Sam, learning to cure demons, as part of the sacrifice that was never completed. Abel’s death and Cain’s torture and self-loathing foreshadowing it all.

    I was listening to “Wrong Side of Heaven” by FFDP earlier, kind’ve gives me the feels thinking of what I suspect (fear?) is to become of Dean.

    And I’m going to go out on a limb and say, while I agree the show is about two brothers (and an angel), seeing them separated and bouncing off other characters in the Supernatural universe, is a breath of fresh air. We’ve seen the same conflicts, over and over, what happens in one season is paralleled so many times in previous seasons. We’ve never seen Sam really connect and bond with Castiel because Dean was always in the way. We’ve never seen Dean, thrust into some of the situations he was thrust into last night, not having Sam acting as his conscience. It was a good change up, and I hope there is more of it in the season(s) to come.

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14. [quote]I’m gonna do a prediction. Dean’s soul will be corrupted. He’ll become a demon. And Sam will die ‘curing’ (saving) Dean.[/quote]

    I had the same thought. (Saw your post just as I was about to punch in mine.) Dean, a demon. Sam, learning to cure demons, as part of the sacrifice that was never completed. Abel’s death and Cain’s torture and self-loathing foreshadowing it all.

    I was listening to “Wrong Side of Heaven” by FFDP earlier, kind’ve gives me the feels thinking of what I suspect (fear?) is to become of Dean.

    And I’m going to go out on a limb and say, while I agree the show is about two brothers (and an angel), seeing them separated and bouncing off other characters in the Supernatural universe, is a breath of fresh air. We’ve seen the same conflicts, over and over, what happens in one season is paralleled so many times in previous seasons. We’ve never seen Sam really connect and bond with Castiel because Dean was always in the way. We’ve never seen Dean, thrust into some of the situations he was thrust into last night, not having Sam acting as his conscience. It was a good change up, and I hope there is more of it in the season(s) to come.

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15. Amyh, they won’t kill either of them (for real) until the end of series. If they don’t go together, it is entirely possible one will sacrifice to save the other, that’s what they do.

    And I do have to say this because I believe it. Dean does have faith in his brother. He’s been disappointed, hurt and mad at Sam (as Sam has been at him). And lashed out. I don’t think DEAN thinks of Sam as a failure! But he has contributed to SAM thinking he is a failure. I think Dean is quite proud of his brother, in fact. I think he has more faith, and I believe trust, in Sam than any other being on earth (or Purgatory). That’s just me, and how I see Dean. 🙂

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16. Amyh, they won’t kill either of them (for real) until the end of series. If they don’t go together, it is entirely possible one will sacrifice to save the other, that’s what they do.

    And I do have to say this because I believe it. Dean does have faith in his brother. He’s been disappointed, hurt and mad at Sam (as Sam has been at him). And lashed out. I don’t think DEAN thinks of Sam as a failure! But he has contributed to SAM thinking he is a failure. I think Dean is quite proud of his brother, in fact. I think he has more faith, and I believe trust, in Sam than any other being on earth (or Purgatory). That’s just me, and how I see Dean. 🙂

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17. i don’t think dean is going to become a demon. a person just doesn’t turn into a demon. a demon is the result of death and many centuries spent in hell. a demon is the soul that has been burned away. if cain was indeed a demon, it didn’t happen while he was alive and human. he had become a demon once he died and went to hell. now he may have taken less time in becoming a demon, due to the deal he struck up with lucifer, but he still was dead before he became one. it seems to me that all this talk about dean becoming a demon is a bit presumptious. as of now, all we know for sure is that the mark of cain will enable dean to wield the weapon that will kill abbadon. once that mission is complete, it’s just as likely that the mark will disappear, having served it’s ultimate purpose. so i’m not really too concerned about dean turning into a demon. but i do believe that carrying the mark will carry with it some burden. since the boys keep ea. other human, i’m not too worried about dean’s soul. one of the main story arcs since the show began, has been the fact that no matter what supernatural power tries to overtake the world and the winchesters, it’s the winchester’s love for ea. other that prevails.
    i read the same jared interview and at first i got a little worried that the boys would be at odds for the remaining eps of the season and then i came to my senses a few minutes later. if you think about it we are up to eppy 12 and the boys haven’t even had the chance to be together yet. i think ea. boy will get a call from the hospital garth is at and that will bring them together. i hardly think they’ll even have the chance to really discuss anything. i get the feeling they’ll agree to stay together, but in all honesty, sam really hasn’t had the opportunity to be angry with dean because dean hasn’t been there physically yet. so i would allow for sam to be upset for a few eps as dean really earned it. i don’t believe it’s going to take the rest of the season for the boys to get back on the same page again. they may not be at 100% by eppy 16, but that doesn’t mean they’re not at 50% or 75% either. they’re guys and they don’t really talk it out the way girls tend to. it’s not that they won’t, it’s just that it takes the boys longer to do it. i guess it depends on which writer drew the straw that gets the boys to deal with their crap. it goes deeper than what dean did, from what i understand from carver’s interviews, they are going to finally see ea. other and share how they view ea. other which is something they’ve never done before. this is the understanding that will bring about the mature and stronger relationship that carver promised we would see in our boys. but first things first, first sam has to be able to feel angry, hurt. that’s the first step in healing…healing for both of them. and i have no doubt that this will all happen this season.

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18. i don’t think dean is going to become a demon. a person just doesn’t turn into a demon. a demon is the result of death and many centuries spent in hell. a demon is the soul that has been burned away. if cain was indeed a demon, it didn’t happen while he was alive and human. he had become a demon once he died and went to hell. now he may have taken less time in becoming a demon, due to the deal he struck up with lucifer, but he still was dead before he became one. it seems to me that all this talk about dean becoming a demon is a bit presumptious. as of now, all we know for sure is that the mark of cain will enable dean to wield the weapon that will kill abbadon. once that mission is complete, it’s just as likely that the mark will disappear, having served it’s ultimate purpose. so i’m not really too concerned about dean turning into a demon. but i do believe that carrying the mark will carry with it some burden. since the boys keep ea. other human, i’m not too worried about dean’s soul. one of the main story arcs since the show began, has been the fact that no matter what supernatural power tries to overtake the world and the winchesters, it’s the winchester’s love for ea. other that prevails.
    i read the same jared interview and at first i got a little worried that the boys would be at odds for the remaining eps of the season and then i came to my senses a few minutes later. if you think about it we are up to eppy 12 and the boys haven’t even had the chance to be together yet. i think ea. boy will get a call from the hospital garth is at and that will bring them together. i hardly think they’ll even have the chance to really discuss anything. i get the feeling they’ll agree to stay together, but in all honesty, sam really hasn’t had the opportunity to be angry with dean because dean hasn’t been there physically yet. so i would allow for sam to be upset for a few eps as dean really earned it. i don’t believe it’s going to take the rest of the season for the boys to get back on the same page again. they may not be at 100% by eppy 16, but that doesn’t mean they’re not at 50% or 75% either. they’re guys and they don’t really talk it out the way girls tend to. it’s not that they won’t, it’s just that it takes the boys longer to do it. i guess it depends on which writer drew the straw that gets the boys to deal with their crap. it goes deeper than what dean did, from what i understand from carver’s interviews, they are going to finally see ea. other and share how they view ea. other which is something they’ve never done before. this is the understanding that will bring about the mature and stronger relationship that carver promised we would see in our boys. but first things first, first sam has to be able to feel angry, hurt. that’s the first step in healing…healing for both of them. and i have no doubt that this will all happen this season.

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19. Jared’s recent and not very helpful (LOL) spoiler about something BIG would have to bring the boys back together….could it be the whole Mark of Cain thing? This time, Sam will have to save Dean possibly and maybe that’ll get them side by side again.

    I’m sure it’ll be a heck of a ride, no matter what.

    So many things happening…Abbadon, Mark of Cain, Gadreel, Metatron…enough to make the head spin and I assume spill over into what we all know will be a definite Season 10.

    Man, I love this show!

    Reply

20. Jared’s recent and not very helpful (LOL) spoiler about something BIG would have to bring the boys back together….could it be the whole Mark of Cain thing? This time, Sam will have to save Dean possibly and maybe that’ll get them side by side again.

    I’m sure it’ll be a heck of a ride, no matter what.

    So many things happening…Abbadon, Mark of Cain, Gadreel, Metatron…enough to make the head spin and I assume spill over into what we all know will be a definite Season 10.

    Man, I love this show!

    Reply

21. I don’t believe we can use the biblical story of Cain and Abel for too many clues because it has been changed so completely by the writers. I also don’t believe Dean is a demon since he didn’t offer up his soul to get the mark and I don’t believe he’ll be immortal. Cain sold his soul to save his brother and so did Dean in S2. That may be the parallel there. I don’t think we’ll be seeing the kinder, gentler side of Dean for awhile since he is definitely in a dark place and in extreme hunter mode. I also wonder if Sam will not parallel Abel in the story but Colette, who knew all of Cain’s history but whose love saved him from going completely dark because of her belief in his goodness.
    I wonder if this is how the brothers will finally come
    together again. Sam’s love and faith in his brother will save Dean.

    I also saw in another review the question of how a demon is going to find the blade in an ocean when it is essentially salt water. I hadn’t thought of that myself.

    I have to say that this season has certainly taken an exciting turn especially with this being a 9th season and I can’t wait to find out where it is going.

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22. I don’t believe we can use the biblical story of Cain and Abel for too many clues because it has been changed so completely by the writers. I also don’t believe Dean is a demon since he didn’t offer up his soul to get the mark and I don’t believe he’ll be immortal. Cain sold his soul to save his brother and so did Dean in S2. That may be the parallel there. I don’t think we’ll be seeing the kinder, gentler side of Dean for awhile since he is definitely in a dark place and in extreme hunter mode. I also wonder if Sam will not parallel Abel in the story but Colette, who knew all of Cain’s history but whose love saved him from going completely dark because of her belief in his goodness.
    I wonder if this is how the brothers will finally come
    together again. Sam’s love and faith in his brother will save Dean.

    I also saw in another review the question of how a demon is going to find the blade in an ocean when it is essentially salt water. I hadn’t thought of that myself.

    I have to say that this season has certainly taken an exciting turn especially with this being a 9th season and I can’t wait to find out where it is going.

    Reply

23. i think i agree prix. i think the interview with jared saying it’ll take something big to bring the boys together was simply him hinting at us that something big is coming and i think he may have been referring to dean’s mark of cain. i too think it’s going to be sam’s faith and love in dean that will save him from himself. dean is his own worst enemy.

    as for crowley finding the blade….his smoke is red and i can’t help but wonder if that’s significant compared to other demons. He also had a history with naomi and i find it hard to swallow that an angel would hook up with an average demon. i keep wondering if there’s more to crowley than meets the eye.

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24. i think i agree prix. i think the interview with jared saying it’ll take something big to bring the boys together was simply him hinting at us that something big is coming and i think he may have been referring to dean’s mark of cain. i too think it’s going to be sam’s faith and love in dean that will save him from himself. dean is his own worst enemy.

    as for crowley finding the blade….his smoke is red and i can’t help but wonder if that’s significant compared to other demons. He also had a history with naomi and i find it hard to swallow that an angel would hook up with an average demon. i keep wondering if there’s more to crowley than meets the eye.

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25. I’m guessing that the usual salt and holy water doesn’t work on a demon as powerful as Crowley.
    I’m a little confused as to why Dean is suddenly willing to be Crowley’s tool. I mean Dean started out by wanting to kill Gadreel and now he is helping the king of hell kill Abadon. Abadon is a powerful knight of hell and all but Crowley has done some pretty horrible stuff to the boy’s. I am really hoping that Dean doesn’t become evil. Even when Sam was high on demon blood he was never evil. He was deceived and manipulated but never intentionally did anything he didn’t think was for the greater good. Ruby never did anything to either Sam (other than the demon blood) or Dean that showed what her true motivations were. Crowley on the other hand has proven over and over that he will kill or torture anyone he needs to. I know that Dean is in a dark place and all but becoming a weapon for the king of hell? I don’t know.

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26. I’m guessing that the usual salt and holy water doesn’t work on a demon as powerful as Crowley.
    I’m a little confused as to why Dean is suddenly willing to be Crowley’s tool. I mean Dean started out by wanting to kill Gadreel and now he is helping the king of hell kill Abadon. Abadon is a powerful knight of hell and all but Crowley has done some pretty horrible stuff to the boy’s. I am really hoping that Dean doesn’t become evil. Even when Sam was high on demon blood he was never evil. He was deceived and manipulated but never intentionally did anything he didn’t think was for the greater good. Ruby never did anything to either Sam (other than the demon blood) or Dean that showed what her true motivations were. Crowley on the other hand has proven over and over that he will kill or torture anyone he needs to. I know that Dean is in a dark place and all but becoming a weapon for the king of hell? I don’t know.

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27. Wow… two threads articles this week – thanks!

    I’ve watched this one a few times and this was a completely unexpected and shocking twist to the story of the Winchesters.

    Just a thinky thought – in Season 9, we’ve seen how Castiel’s time as human has affected him and changed his outlook/perspective. We’ve also seen how Crowley’s almost cure has affected him – humanity is seeping thru the cracks of his snarky demeanor. He clearly has a soft spot for Sam and Dean, and while he wouldn’t admit it, on some level cares about them. I’m left wondering whether we’re now going to see the opposite happen to Dean, where he starts losing his humanity. Yes, we’ve had instances of this for both Sam and Dean in the past, but this time feels a little different; there’s going to be a terrible price to pay for carrying The Mark of Cain; we just don’t know what it is yet.

    I know this isn’t a speculation thread but had another thought; Sam doesn’t have an anti possession tattoo now; an obvious parallel to the Cain/Abel/Collette story would be that Sam is possessed by Abaddon, and Dean has to kill him with the first blade, thereby killing Abaddon and sending Sam to heaven.

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28. Wow… two threads articles this week – thanks!

    I’ve watched this one a few times and this was a completely unexpected and shocking twist to the story of the Winchesters.

    Just a thinky thought – in Season 9, we’ve seen how Castiel’s time as human has affected him and changed his outlook/perspective. We’ve also seen how Crowley’s almost cure has affected him – humanity is seeping thru the cracks of his snarky demeanor. He clearly has a soft spot for Sam and Dean, and while he wouldn’t admit it, on some level cares about them. I’m left wondering whether we’re now going to see the opposite happen to Dean, where he starts losing his humanity. Yes, we’ve had instances of this for both Sam and Dean in the past, but this time feels a little different; there’s going to be a terrible price to pay for carrying The Mark of Cain; we just don’t know what it is yet.

    I know this isn’t a speculation thread but had another thought; Sam doesn’t have an anti possession tattoo now; an obvious parallel to the Cain/Abel/Collette story would be that Sam is possessed by Abaddon, and Dean has to kill him with the first blade, thereby killing Abaddon and sending Sam to heaven.

    Reply

29. [quote name=”nappi815″]i think i agree prix. i think the interview with jared saying it’ll take something big to bring the boys together was simply him hinting at us that something big is coming and i think he may have been referring to dean’s mark of cain. i too think it’s going to be sam’s faith and love in dean that will save him from himself. dean is his own worst enemy.[/quote]

    I hope it takes a while for them to sort thru things, otherwise it will seem forced and unnatural. What happened is not something they can “hug out” and all is well – it’s gonna take time.

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30. [quote]i think i agree prix. i think the interview with jared saying it’ll take something big to bring the boys together was simply him hinting at us that something big is coming and i think he may have been referring to dean’s mark of cain. i too think it’s going to be sam’s faith and love in dean that will save him from himself. dean is his own worst enemy.[/quote]

    I hope it takes a while for them to sort thru things, otherwise it will seem forced and unnatural. What happened is not something they can “hug out” and all is well – it’s gonna take time.

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31. [quote name=”percysowner”][quote]The only person who has screwed things up more consistently than you, is me”.[/quote]

    I hate that quote. Cas telling Sam that he is really nothing but a failure bugs me. Not one word of Sam fixing his mistakes or the good he’s done. Just one more reminder that Sam isn’t good.[/quote]

    I didn’t see it as Cas telling Sam that he was nothing but a failure. I thought he was aknowledging Sam’s feelings of being a failure and trying to get through to him. Note that Cas was comparing Sam’s situation to his own, indicating that he knew how Sam was feeling. In that situation, Sam needed someone to listen and take his feelings seriously. Placating him by saying “but you’ve done good things, too” might have come off as patronizing and been counterproductive. Besides, Cas did actually get through to Sam. I thought it was a remarkable show of empathy from Cas, especially when compared to how he reacted when Dean was about to say yes to Michael.

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32. [quote][quote]The only person who has screwed things up more consistently than you, is me”.[/quote]

    I hate that quote. Cas telling Sam that he is really nothing but a failure bugs me. Not one word of Sam fixing his mistakes or the good he’s done. Just one more reminder that Sam isn’t good.[/quote]

    I didn’t see it as Cas telling Sam that he was nothing but a failure. I thought he was aknowledging Sam’s feelings of being a failure and trying to get through to him. Note that Cas was comparing Sam’s situation to his own, indicating that he knew how Sam was feeling. In that situation, Sam needed someone to listen and take his feelings seriously. Placating him by saying “but you’ve done good things, too” might have come off as patronizing and been counterproductive. Besides, Cas did actually get through to Sam. I thought it was a remarkable show of empathy from Cas, especially when compared to how he reacted when Dean was about to say yes to Michael.

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33. #15 Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think the “save” is going to come quickly, just ultimately and with the kind of understanding that we always hoped the brothers would finally have. I think that Dean will finally understand that Sam never gives up on family either and certainly not on Dean.

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34. #15 Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think the “save” is going to come quickly, just ultimately and with the kind of understanding that we always hoped the brothers would finally have. I think that Dean will finally understand that Sam never gives up on family either and certainly not on Dean.

    Reply

35. [quote name=”njspnfan”]Wow… two threads articles this week – thanks!

    I know this isn’t a speculation thread but had another thought; Sam doesn’t have an anti possession tattoo now; an obvious parallel to the Cain/Abel/Collette story would be that Sam is possessed by Abaddon, and Dean has to kill him with the first blade, thereby killing Abaddon and sending Sam to heaven.[/quote]

    Two Threads articles in one week…LOL! I wanted to jump on this week’s ep because there was SOOO much to talk about, but believe me, my house is running out of frozen left overs to eat (no time to shop or cook)! I skip weeks that have filler eps but I don’t see any of those coming up soon!

    Wait…what? I DO consider this a speculation thread! How else would we makes sense of all these new things that are happening! We may not be on the “Lets Speculate” page because we try to find evidence in the writing for our guesses, but I’m counting on all of you to help me create and test theories, however wild they may be!

    Would you all feel more comfortable “speculating” if we moved this to the speculate page?? I could talk to Alice. In the mean time, please speculate away!

    Reply

36. [quote]Wow… two threads articles this week – thanks!

    I know this isn’t a speculation thread but had another thought; Sam doesn’t have an anti possession tattoo now; an obvious parallel to the Cain/Abel/Collette story would be that Sam is possessed by Abaddon, and Dean has to kill him with the first blade, thereby killing Abaddon and sending Sam to heaven.[/quote]

    Two Threads articles in one week…LOL! I wanted to jump on this week’s ep because there was SOOO much to talk about, but believe me, my house is running out of frozen left overs to eat (no time to shop or cook)! I skip weeks that have filler eps but I don’t see any of those coming up soon!

    Wait…what? I DO consider this a speculation thread! How else would we makes sense of all these new things that are happening! We may not be on the “Lets Speculate” page because we try to find evidence in the writing for our guesses, but I’m counting on all of you to help me create and test theories, however wild they may be!

    Would you all feel more comfortable “speculating” if we moved this to the speculate page?? I could talk to Alice. In the mean time, please speculate away!

    Reply

37. [quote name=”cheryl42″] I’m a little confused as to why Dean is suddenly willing to be Crowley’s tool. I mean Dean started out by wanting to kill Gadreel and now he is helping the king of hell kill Abadon.[/quote]

    Yeah. That’s my biggest problem with First Born. Road Trip ended with Dean promising to avenge Kevin by ganking Gadriel. And suddenly now he’s trying to kill Abbadon? WTF?!

    Plus, I’m STILL rewatching this episode to catch up on more of the details and they truly are the devil. I’m also still on edge about the mark. I still love all of Sam and Cas’s scenes.

    And Nightsky you raise a valid point. I, too, wonder about how fans from the pilot think of the recent turns. These last 3 episodes have been as gut-wrenching, rug-pulling to me as the conclusion of Sacrifice and Bobby’s death, especially to a chump like Roman, but I came to the table a little late. My bff howled at Sacrifice the way she did at the end of S1 and S2, and she’s saying the same thing now.

    Reply

38. [quote] I’m a little confused as to why Dean is suddenly willing to be Crowley’s tool. I mean Dean started out by wanting to kill Gadreel and now he is helping the king of hell kill Abadon.[/quote]

    Yeah. That’s my biggest problem with First Born. Road Trip ended with Dean promising to avenge Kevin by ganking Gadriel. And suddenly now he’s trying to kill Abbadon? WTF?!

    Plus, I’m STILL rewatching this episode to catch up on more of the details and they truly are the devil. I’m also still on edge about the mark. I still love all of Sam and Cas’s scenes.

    And Nightsky you raise a valid point. I, too, wonder about how fans from the pilot think of the recent turns. These last 3 episodes have been as gut-wrenching, rug-pulling to me as the conclusion of Sacrifice and Bobby’s death, especially to a chump like Roman, but I came to the table a little late. My bff howled at Sacrifice the way she did at the end of S1 and S2, and she’s saying the same thing now.

    Reply

39. Every time I see Crowley being so charming and accomodating to and with Dean and Sam, I just don’t trust him. He is so manipulative and always has his own self interests first. Always.

    Reply

40. Every time I see Crowley being so charming and accomodating to and with Dean and Sam, I just don’t trust him. He is so manipulative and always has his own self interests first. Always.

    Reply

41. the only thing njspn fan is that i don’t see sam not getting retattooed rather quickly. i mean after all, he was yet again possessed and i don’t see him wanting to that to happen to him again any time soon.

    Reply

42. the only thing njspn fan is that i don’t see sam not getting retattooed rather quickly. i mean after all, he was yet again possessed and i don’t see him wanting to that to happen to him again any time soon.

    Reply

43. [quote name=”nappi815″]the only thing njspn fan is that i don’t see sam not getting retattooed rather quickly. i mean after all, he was yet again possessed and i don’t see him wanting to that to happen to him again any time soon.[/quote]

    nappi815 – Agreed, but in 9.02 Abaddon did make a point of telling Dean she could peel off his no demons allowed tattoo and possess him.

    Reply

44. [quote]the only thing njspn fan is that i don’t see sam not getting retattooed rather quickly. i mean after all, he was yet again possessed and i don’t see him wanting to that to happen to him again any time soon.[/quote]

    nappi815 – Agreed, but in 9.02 Abaddon did make a point of telling Dean she could peel off his no demons allowed tattoo and possess him.

    Reply

45. [quote name=”nightsky”][quote name=”njspnfan”]Wow… two threads articles this week – thanks!

    I know this isn’t a speculation thread but had another thought; Sam doesn’t have an anti possession tattoo now; an obvious parallel to the Cain/Abel/Collette story would be that Sam is possessed by Abaddon, and Dean has to kill him with the first blade, thereby killing Abaddon and sending Sam to heaven.[/quote]

    Two Threads articles in one week…LOL! I wanted to jump on this week’s ep because there was SOOO much to talk about, but believe me, my house is running out of frozen left overs to eat (no time to shop or cook)! I skip weeks that have filler eps but I don’t see any of those coming up soon!

    Wait…what? I DO consider this a speculation thread! How else would we makes sense of all these new things that are happening! We may not be on the “Lets Speculate” page because we try to find evidence in the writing for our guesses, but I’m counting on all of you to help me create and test theories, however wild they may be!

    Would you all feel more comfortable “speculating” if we moved this to the speculate page?? I could talk to Alice. In the mean time, please speculate away![/quote]

    Nightsky – thanks, I shall speculate away then.

    Reply

46. [quote][quote]Wow… two threads articles this week – thanks!

    I know this isn’t a speculation thread but had another thought; Sam doesn’t have an anti possession tattoo now; an obvious parallel to the Cain/Abel/Collette story would be that Sam is possessed by Abaddon, and Dean has to kill him with the first blade, thereby killing Abaddon and sending Sam to heaven.[/quote]

    Two Threads articles in one week…LOL! I wanted to jump on this week’s ep because there was SOOO much to talk about, but believe me, my house is running out of frozen left overs to eat (no time to shop or cook)! I skip weeks that have filler eps but I don’t see any of those coming up soon!

    Wait…what? I DO consider this a speculation thread! How else would we makes sense of all these new things that are happening! We may not be on the “Lets Speculate” page because we try to find evidence in the writing for our guesses, but I’m counting on all of you to help me create and test theories, however wild they may be!

    Would you all feel more comfortable “speculating” if we moved this to the speculate page?? I could talk to Alice. In the mean time, please speculate away![/quote]

    Nightsky – thanks, I shall speculate away then.

    Reply

47. i don’t think either boy will be dying any time soon. this whole season has been about that already and it’s a bit soon for yet another rehash of that same old story. i just don’t think that’s the route that will be taken yet again. i think this story line will play out differently. the whole one brother killing the other scenario has played itself out already. the damn story lasted 5 seasons. i really don’t want to see that all over again. this is a very creative writing team that i believe can come up with a new story arc that doesn’t involve brothers killing brothers for any reason ….that’s just my opinion of course.

    Reply

48. i don’t think either boy will be dying any time soon. this whole season has been about that already and it’s a bit soon for yet another rehash of that same old story. i just don’t think that’s the route that will be taken yet again. i think this story line will play out differently. the whole one brother killing the other scenario has played itself out already. the damn story lasted 5 seasons. i really don’t want to see that all over again. this is a very creative writing team that i believe can come up with a new story arc that doesn’t involve brothers killing brothers for any reason ….that’s just my opinion of course.

    Reply

49. [quote name=”nappi815″]i don’t think either boy will be dying any time soon. this whole season has been about that already and it’s a bit soon for yet another rehash of that same old story. i just don’t think that’s the route that will be taken yet again. i think this story line will play out differently. the whole one brother killing the other scenario has played itself out already. the damn story lasted 5 seasons. i really don’t want to see that all over again. this is a very creative writing team that i believe can come up with a new story arc that doesn’t involve brothers killing brothers for any reason ….that’s just my opinion of course.[/quote]

    I don’t either; just stating the obvious parallel. But, the writers made a point to inject this in to their spin on the Cain and Abel story so I have to wonder why.

    Reply

50. [quote]i don’t think either boy will be dying any time soon. this whole season has been about that already and it’s a bit soon for yet another rehash of that same old story. i just don’t think that’s the route that will be taken yet again. i think this story line will play out differently. the whole one brother killing the other scenario has played itself out already. the damn story lasted 5 seasons. i really don’t want to see that all over again. this is a very creative writing team that i believe can come up with a new story arc that doesn’t involve brothers killing brothers for any reason ….that’s just my opinion of course.[/quote]

    I don’t either; just stating the obvious parallel. But, the writers made a point to inject this in to their spin on the Cain and Abel story so I have to wonder why.

    Reply

51. nappi – I love your voice of reason. Your thoughts and opinions make sense to me.

    I think the guys will be surrounded by enough conflict and killing – be it with the warring demons or the warring angels – that the writers won’t need to have them be lethal each other. In fact, they may be drawn back together as the defenders of the human element. Hopefully the MoL will help with that because, while it is not the end of times, these battles are resulting in a lot of humans dying.

    What’s interesting to consider is that two big players in these wars – Cas and Crowley – have recently had brushes with being human. Then add Dean into the mix with the MoC and Sam with insight into Gadreel and Metatron’s plans…. Yup, could be very interesting!

    Nightsky, loved the article and the screencaps! Some great pretties!

    Reply

52. nappi – I love your voice of reason. Your thoughts and opinions make sense to me.

    I think the guys will be surrounded by enough conflict and killing – be it with the warring demons or the warring angels – that the writers won’t need to have them be lethal each other. In fact, they may be drawn back together as the defenders of the human element. Hopefully the MoL will help with that because, while it is not the end of times, these battles are resulting in a lot of humans dying.

    What’s interesting to consider is that two big players in these wars – Cas and Crowley – have recently had brushes with being human. Then add Dean into the mix with the MoC and Sam with insight into Gadreel and Metatron’s plans…. Yup, could be very interesting!

    Nightsky, loved the article and the screencaps! Some great pretties!

    Reply

53. Again, these threads give much food for thought.
    The mark of Cain seems to give its bearer power, but it doesn’t look like it’s connected to Cain’s powers or his status as a demon. I found the concept of the mark being transferred to someone worthy interesting. Dean immediately thought that meant that he was a killer. However, I don’t think that is what made Cain decide to give Dean the mark. After all, killing doesn’t make you worthy – taking down three minor demons alone and facing the strongest, deadliest demon without even flinching does. I hope that Dean will learn where his worth really lies.
    I don’t think that Dean will ever be forced to kill Sam or actually become a demon. That was a deal between Cain and Lucifer, and I don’t think it was transferred along with the mark. Cain also seemed to make a distinction between his deal and the burden that comes with the mark.
    Like you, Nightsky, I picked up on “Where is your brother now, then?” Dean really did seem rattled. In the Bible, Cain responded to that question by saying that he wasn’t his brother’s keeper – but Dean is. That’s the one thing besides hunting that he has always defined himself by. Giving up on his relationship with his brother would mean giving up on himself.
    While the brothers seemed to need their time apart and it gave Sam a chance to sort through his feelings, I don’t think that they will do well if they are separated for too long.
    The conversation between Sam and Castiel reminded me of a quote by French writer and politician André Malraux which roughly translated means “a life is worth nothing, but nothing is worth a life”. I hope that Sam will come to terms with his decision to stop doing the trials and Dean’s choice. Mostly, I hope that Sam will understand that he is by no means a failure and that he’s more than capable of taking charge and doing things right.
    There was one thing that intrigued me at the end of this episode. Crowley seemed very sure that Dean wouldn’t kill him even after killing Abaddon. Considering Dean’s current mindset and the fact that he is becoming more powerful and dangerous to demons than he ever was, Crowley couldn’t be that positive unless he knows that Dean will need him. Maybe Crowley does know how to reverse Metatron’s spell.

    Reply

54. Again, these threads give much food for thought.
    The mark of Cain seems to give its bearer power, but it doesn’t look like it’s connected to Cain’s powers or his status as a demon. I found the concept of the mark being transferred to someone worthy interesting. Dean immediately thought that meant that he was a killer. However, I don’t think that is what made Cain decide to give Dean the mark. After all, killing doesn’t make you worthy – taking down three minor demons alone and facing the strongest, deadliest demon without even flinching does. I hope that Dean will learn where his worth really lies.
    I don’t think that Dean will ever be forced to kill Sam or actually become a demon. That was a deal between Cain and Lucifer, and I don’t think it was transferred along with the mark. Cain also seemed to make a distinction between his deal and the burden that comes with the mark.
    Like you, Nightsky, I picked up on “Where is your brother now, then?” Dean really did seem rattled. In the Bible, Cain responded to that question by saying that he wasn’t his brother’s keeper – but Dean is. That’s the one thing besides hunting that he has always defined himself by. Giving up on his relationship with his brother would mean giving up on himself.
    While the brothers seemed to need their time apart and it gave Sam a chance to sort through his feelings, I don’t think that they will do well if they are separated for too long.
    The conversation between Sam and Castiel reminded me of a quote by French writer and politician André Malraux which roughly translated means “a life is worth nothing, but nothing is worth a life”. I hope that Sam will come to terms with his decision to stop doing the trials and Dean’s choice. Mostly, I hope that Sam will understand that he is by no means a failure and that he’s more than capable of taking charge and doing things right.
    There was one thing that intrigued me at the end of this episode. Crowley seemed very sure that Dean wouldn’t kill him even after killing Abaddon. Considering Dean’s current mindset and the fact that he is becoming more powerful and dangerous to demons than he ever was, Crowley couldn’t be that positive unless he knows that Dean will need him. Maybe Crowley does know how to reverse Metatron’s spell.

    Reply

55. Great article Nightsky and great comment from everyone. My head is spinning.

    [quote name=”amyh”]

    But does anyone think that thaqt was the plan all along? The self sacrificing big brother was the target allo along? Just ‘talk’ to the younger brother adn the big brother….havibg bsolutely NO faith in his sibling to do the right thing – will sell themselves to evil in a nanosecond?

    Evil gets what evil wants….always.[/quote]

    Very interesting idea except I do think Dean has faith in Sam. He just lets his feeling of responsibility override it. Dean is like a uber helicopter parent who doesn’t realize they are doing more damage than good. Letting someone “fail” can be better than making decisions for them. Of course I’m torn because “fail” = death for Sam. Still, what a great twist if Dean & Cain were the true targets to start with! Maybe Cain will see his mistake & make Dean see the light- I can always dream….

    Reply

56. Great article Nightsky and great comment from everyone. My head is spinning.

    [quote]

    But does anyone think that thaqt was the plan all along? The self sacrificing big brother was the target allo along? Just ‘talk’ to the younger brother adn the big brother….havibg bsolutely NO faith in his sibling to do the right thing – will sell themselves to evil in a nanosecond?

    Evil gets what evil wants….always.[/quote]

    Very interesting idea except I do think Dean has faith in Sam. He just lets his feeling of responsibility override it. Dean is like a uber helicopter parent who doesn’t realize they are doing more damage than good. Letting someone “fail” can be better than making decisions for them. Of course I’m torn because “fail” = death for Sam. Still, what a great twist if Dean & Cain were the true targets to start with! Maybe Cain will see his mistake & make Dean see the light- I can always dream….

    Reply

57. New thought: Cain stopped “being bad” because he fell in love. For decades, he was able to stop being evil or acting like a demon even though technically he remained a demon. Could this be foreshadowing that Crowley can find his redemption by also changing his ways simply by choosing to do so? I think it is significant that Crowley was the one who voiced the words “To Stop” when he realized what Collette had asked Cain to do. This would tie into Crowley’s asking Sam in the church how he can find forgiveness. Makes sense that storyline wouldn’t just be dropped, but I hadn’t thought about it before now.

    Reply

58. New thought: Cain stopped “being bad” because he fell in love. For decades, he was able to stop being evil or acting like a demon even though technically he remained a demon. Could this be foreshadowing that Crowley can find his redemption by also changing his ways simply by choosing to do so? I think it is significant that Crowley was the one who voiced the words “To Stop” when he realized what Collette had asked Cain to do. This would tie into Crowley’s asking Sam in the church how he can find forgiveness. Makes sense that storyline wouldn’t just be dropped, but I hadn’t thought about it before now.

    Reply

59. Tying the events of S9 back to what we learned during the trials in S8 –

    1) Hellhounds can be seen (with the appropriately treated fashionable eye wear) and killed with Ruby’s knife a.k.a. an ancient demon killing knife of the Kurds
    2) The ever popular and controversial rogue reapers can transport humans and souls to heaven/hell/purgatory
    3) Souls can be rescued from hell
    4) Demons can be cured

    And some things we’ve learned this season

    1) Other than Metatron, all angels are locked out of heaven and have lost their teleport/zapping capabilities. (By the way, where did those angels go in 9.01 when Dean banished them? I was wondering the same thing when Dean said it). With few exceptions, rock beats scissors and angels beat demons, but demons that can zap do have that as an advantage over angels.
    2) Abaddon and Cain cannot be killed by Ruby’s knife. They probably can’t be killed with an angel blade either.
    3) The prophet switch has been turned off by Metatron, and he has the demon and angel tablets now. I do think Crowley knows how to reverse the spell, but is holding on to that information as a bargaining chip for later on.
    4) Abaddon and Cain can be killed by the first blade, but only by whoever is wearing the mark of Cain.

    I agree with everyone that says Dean is not a demon, nor immortal, but it looks like he’ll be going down a very dark path.

    Speculation part –

    They find out using the first blade to kill Abaddon or Cain will turn Dean completely dark side, so Sam tries to cure Abaddon before Dean can kill her. Or Dean kills Abaddon and Sam has to cure Dean to save him?

    Other than Metatron, heaven is unguarded. And Metatron isn’t exactly a soldier or sentry. Maybe the demons make a play for heaven, perhaps thru an alliance with one of the angel factions? The civil war between the angels isn’t terribly interesting, at least yet, but something like this would spice things up. This isn’t out of the question; we had Ion acting as a double agent for Crowley last year, and rogue reapers were working with Bartholomew (a.k.a. Dick Roman-lite).

    Reply

60. Tying the events of S9 back to what we learned during the trials in S8 –

    1) Hellhounds can be seen (with the appropriately treated fashionable eye wear) and killed with Ruby’s knife a.k.a. an ancient demon killing knife of the Kurds
    2) The ever popular and controversial rogue reapers can transport humans and souls to heaven/hell/purgatory
    3) Souls can be rescued from hell
    4) Demons can be cured

    And some things we’ve learned this season

    1) Other than Metatron, all angels are locked out of heaven and have lost their teleport/zapping capabilities. (By the way, where did those angels go in 9.01 when Dean banished them? I was wondering the same thing when Dean said it). With few exceptions, rock beats scissors and angels beat demons, but demons that can zap do have that as an advantage over angels.
    2) Abaddon and Cain cannot be killed by Ruby’s knife. They probably can’t be killed with an angel blade either.
    3) The prophet switch has been turned off by Metatron, and he has the demon and angel tablets now. I do think Crowley knows how to reverse the spell, but is holding on to that information as a bargaining chip for later on.
    4) Abaddon and Cain can be killed by the first blade, but only by whoever is wearing the mark of Cain.

    I agree with everyone that says Dean is not a demon, nor immortal, but it looks like he’ll be going down a very dark path.

    Speculation part –

    They find out using the first blade to kill Abaddon or Cain will turn Dean completely dark side, so Sam tries to cure Abaddon before Dean can kill her. Or Dean kills Abaddon and Sam has to cure Dean to save him?

    Other than Metatron, heaven is unguarded. And Metatron isn’t exactly a soldier or sentry. Maybe the demons make a play for heaven, perhaps thru an alliance with one of the angel factions? The civil war between the angels isn’t terribly interesting, at least yet, but something like this would spice things up. This isn’t out of the question; we had Ion acting as a double agent for Crowley last year, and rogue reapers were working with Bartholomew (a.k.a. Dick Roman-lite).

    Reply

61. [quote name=”njspnfan”]

    I agree with everyone that says Dean is not a demon, nor immortal, but it looks like he’ll be going down a very dark path.

    Speculation part –

    They find out using the first blade to kill Abaddon or Cain will turn Dean completely dark side, so Sam tries to cure Abaddon before Dean can kill her. Or Dean kills Abaddon and Sam has to cure Dean to save him?[/quote]
    I really like your summary of so many things that have been added to canon in the last 2 seasons! It helps to get it all in one simple list, doesn’t it?

    I have been starting to agree that Cain’s immortality is because he is a demon, not because of the mark. I have also been thinking that [i]using[/i] the mark & blade is what turns Dean evil, i.e. each time he uses the power of evil, he loses a little bit more of his soul/humanity/goodness.

    Reply

62. [quote]

    I agree with everyone that says Dean is not a demon, nor immortal, but it looks like he’ll be going down a very dark path.

    Speculation part –

    They find out using the first blade to kill Abaddon or Cain will turn Dean completely dark side, so Sam tries to cure Abaddon before Dean can kill her. Or Dean kills Abaddon and Sam has to cure Dean to save him?[/quote]
    I really like your summary of so many things that have been added to canon in the last 2 seasons! It helps to get it all in one simple list, doesn’t it?

    I have been starting to agree that Cain’s immortality is because he is a demon, not because of the mark. I have also been thinking that [i]using[/i] the mark & blade is what turns Dean evil, i.e. each time he uses the power of evil, he loses a little bit more of his soul/humanity/goodness.

    Reply

63. BTW, There have been several [i]great[/i] ideas offered here! I just haven’t had time to comment on all of them. Soon, though….

    Reply

64. BTW, There have been several [i]great[/i] ideas offered here! I just haven’t had time to comment on all of them. Soon, though….

    Reply

65. [quote name=”mary9930″]Great article Nightsky and great comment from everyone. My head is spinning.

    [quote name=”amyh”]

    But does anyone think that thaqt was the plan all along? The self sacrificing big brother was the target allo along? Just ‘talk’ to the younger brother adn the big brother….havibg bsolutely NO faith in his sibling to do the right thing – will sell themselves to evil in a nanosecond?

    Evil gets what evil wants….always.[/quote]

    Very interesting idea except I do think Dean has faith in Sam. He just lets his feeling of responsibility override it. Dean is like a uber helicopter parent who doesn’t realize they are doing more damage than good. Letting someone “fail” can be better than making decisions for them. Of course I’m torn because “fail” = death for Sam. Still, what a great twist if Dean & Cain were the true targets to start with! Maybe Cain will see his mistake & make Dean see the light- I can always dream….[/quote]

    mary9930 – thank you, that’s one of the better explanations I’ve read of how Dean views Sam.

    Reply

66. [quote]Great article Nightsky and great comment from everyone. My head is spinning.

    [quote]

    But does anyone think that thaqt was the plan all along? The self sacrificing big brother was the target allo along? Just ‘talk’ to the younger brother adn the big brother….havibg bsolutely NO faith in his sibling to do the right thing – will sell themselves to evil in a nanosecond?

    Evil gets what evil wants….always.[/quote]

    Very interesting idea except I do think Dean has faith in Sam. He just lets his feeling of responsibility override it. Dean is like a uber helicopter parent who doesn’t realize they are doing more damage than good. Letting someone “fail” can be better than making decisions for them. Of course I’m torn because “fail” = death for Sam. Still, what a great twist if Dean & Cain were the true targets to start with! Maybe Cain will see his mistake & make Dean see the light- I can always dream….[/quote]

    mary9930 – thank you, that’s one of the better explanations I’ve read of how Dean views Sam.

    Reply

67. Love your analysis, gives me so much to think of before the next episode.
    But I have some questions hope that you or someone can give me some answers or not opinions.
    1. I think I’ve heard in Changing channel and the song remains the same that Sam and Dean are the descendants of Abel and Cain? That’s why they are the vessels?
    2. If Cain appeared, will Abel appears too? Maybe to confront his brother or to let Cain kwok how he feels about Cain’s decision?

    Reply

68. Love your analysis, gives me so much to think of before the next episode.
    But I have some questions hope that you or someone can give me some answers or not opinions.
    1. I think I’ve heard in Changing channel and the song remains the same that Sam and Dean are the descendants of Abel and Cain? That’s why they are the vessels?
    2. If Cain appeared, will Abel appears too? Maybe to confront his brother or to let Cain kwok how he feels about Cain’s decision?

    Reply

69. I’ve been watching supernatural since the beginning, and the most impressive episode of all it’s the last one of the first season. It ends completely fucked up, with a truck hitting in the oppala with dean, sam and his father. I had to wait until the next season to know what the fuck will happen.

    Reply

70. I’ve been watching supernatural since the beginning, and the most impressive episode of all it’s the last one of the first season. It ends completely fucked up, with a truck hitting in the oppala with dean, sam and his father. I had to wait until the next season to know what the fuck will happen.

    Reply

71. Prior Dean deals always had to be about saving family. This time, Dean is paired with Crowley who he himself says is the farthest thing from family. This is Dean at his lowest point of self loathing. He accepts the mark of Cain and its consequences so he can go against Abaddon. He doesn’t mention getting revenge for Kevin on Gadreel as he blames himself. He doesn’t involve any of Sam’s issues in this new quest. This is just raw Dean. (His affect later on Sam is unknown). So while reference has been made in earlier seasons to Dean’s blood line, the righteous man spilling blood, etc. this is a much darker arc for the character and perhaps not having Sam to keep him human or to pause before he acts on impulse is head spinning. Is Dean on a suicidal mission or does he need to fight overwhelm any sense of his humanity? When Dean’s humanity is at risk long term, I would say it hits me harder. Bravo to the writers for keeping it fresh.

    Reply

72. Prior Dean deals always had to be about saving family. This time, Dean is paired with Crowley who he himself says is the farthest thing from family. This is Dean at his lowest point of self loathing. He accepts the mark of Cain and its consequences so he can go against Abaddon. He doesn’t mention getting revenge for Kevin on Gadreel as he blames himself. He doesn’t involve any of Sam’s issues in this new quest. This is just raw Dean. (His affect later on Sam is unknown). So while reference has been made in earlier seasons to Dean’s blood line, the righteous man spilling blood, etc. this is a much darker arc for the character and perhaps not having Sam to keep him human or to pause before he acts on impulse is head spinning. Is Dean on a suicidal mission or does he need to fight overwhelm any sense of his humanity? When Dean’s humanity is at risk long term, I would say it hits me harder. Bravo to the writers for keeping it fresh.

    Reply

73. [quote name=”mary9930″]Great article Nightsky and great comment from everyone. My head is spinning.

    [quote name=”amyh”]

    But does anyone think that thaqt was the plan all along? The self sacrificing big brother was the target allo along? Just ‘talk’ to the younger brother adn the big brother….havibg bsolutely NO faith in his sibling to do the right thing – will sell themselves to evil in a nanosecond?

    Evil gets what evil wants….always.[/quote]

    Very interesting idea except I do think Dean has faith in Sam. He just lets his feeling of responsibility override it. Dean is like a uber helicopter parent who doesn’t realize they are doing more damage than good. Letting someone “fail” can be better than making decisions for them. Of course I’m torn because “fail” = death for Sam. Still, what a great twist if Dean & Cain were the true targets to start with! Maybe Cain will see his mistake & make Dean see the light- I can always dream….[/quote]

    So you think the only thing Sam will do if ‘allowed’ his own agency is fail? That Sam will never succeeed…i.e. choose th correct path on his own? Or even triumph (survive) in battle without someone (dean) holding his hand?

    If Dean beleives this then yes…I do think he has NO faith in Sam…as a person….a brother (son)….a winchester. And then i have to wonder why Dean even wants Sam hunting…if he truely beleives Sam will choose wrong every single time.

    Reply

74. [quote]Great article Nightsky and great comment from everyone. My head is spinning.

    [quote]

    But does anyone think that thaqt was the plan all along? The self sacrificing big brother was the target allo along? Just ‘talk’ to the younger brother adn the big brother….havibg bsolutely NO faith in his sibling to do the right thing – will sell themselves to evil in a nanosecond?

    Evil gets what evil wants….always.[/quote]

    Very interesting idea except I do think Dean has faith in Sam. He just lets his feeling of responsibility override it. Dean is like a uber helicopter parent who doesn’t realize they are doing more damage than good. Letting someone “fail” can be better than making decisions for them. Of course I’m torn because “fail” = death for Sam. Still, what a great twist if Dean & Cain were the true targets to start with! Maybe Cain will see his mistake & make Dean see the light- I can always dream….[/quote]

    So you think the only thing Sam will do if ‘allowed’ his own agency is fail? That Sam will never succeeed…i.e. choose th correct path on his own? Or even triumph (survive) in battle without someone (dean) holding his hand?

    If Dean beleives this then yes…I do think he has NO faith in Sam…as a person….a brother (son)….a winchester. And then i have to wonder why Dean even wants Sam hunting…if he truely beleives Sam will choose wrong every single time.

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75. Gosh amyh, how did you arrive at that from what nightsky said? I don’t think she was saying that at all. She was just comparing Dean to a helicopter parent who hovers around their kids and do more harm than good by not letting them make their own decisions. His sense of responsibility, love, fear of being alone (whatever you want to call it) overrides anything else. If Dean hadn’t made that decision at the beginning Sam would be dead plain and simple. Debates will go on about the rightness or wrongness of that decision. She wasn’t saying Sam will fail or choose the wrong path or will not survive without Dean holding his hand anywhere in that post.

    That’s how I interpreted it anyway. 🙂

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76. Gosh amyh, how did you arrive at that from what nightsky said? I don’t think she was saying that at all. She was just comparing Dean to a helicopter parent who hovers around their kids and do more harm than good by not letting them make their own decisions. His sense of responsibility, love, fear of being alone (whatever you want to call it) overrides anything else. If Dean hadn’t made that decision at the beginning Sam would be dead plain and simple. Debates will go on about the rightness or wrongness of that decision. She wasn’t saying Sam will fail or choose the wrong path or will not survive without Dean holding his hand anywhere in that post.

    That’s how I interpreted it anyway. 🙂

    Reply

77. My comment @38-I mistakenly attributed the response as nightsky’s. It was mary9930. Sorry mary9930!!

    Reply

78. My comment @38-I mistakenly attributed the response as nightsky’s. It was mary9930. Sorry mary9930!!

    Reply

79. [quote name=”leah d”]My comment @38-I mistakenly attributed the response as nightsky’s. It was mary9930. Sorry mary9930!![/quote]

    No worries leah d, if you’re trying to better explain my point you can call me whatever you want 😉

    Reply

80. [quote]My comment @38-I mistakenly attributed the response as nightsky’s. It was mary9930. Sorry mary9930!![/quote]

    No worries leah d, if you’re trying to better explain my point you can call me whatever you want 😉

    Reply

81. Sam and Dean told destiny to screw itself in the story of Michael, Lucifer, and the apocalypse. I’m sure they’ll do the same thing to the story of Cain and Abel. I do wonder if they’re going to introduce Abel in to the mix.

    From what we’ve scene so far, looks like Dean is headed down a dark path, and Sam, at least for now, is aligned with the angels/heaven part of the story. Just wondering if they’re doing this so each of them can metaphorically walk a mile in their brother’s shoes.

    Reply

82. Sam and Dean told destiny to screw itself in the story of Michael, Lucifer, and the apocalypse. I’m sure they’ll do the same thing to the story of Cain and Abel. I do wonder if they’re going to introduce Abel in to the mix.

    From what we’ve scene so far, looks like Dean is headed down a dark path, and Sam, at least for now, is aligned with the angels/heaven part of the story. Just wondering if they’re doing this so each of them can metaphorically walk a mile in their brother’s shoes.

    Reply

83. Wow! You have all added so many great theories to help us figure out what is going to happen next! I read that the next episode adds a lot of new information to the series’ myth arc as well. If the information is about the MoC or the Heaven/Hell wars, we will have a lot to sort through!

    Here are a few of my reactions to your comments. In addition to these comments, I also wrote down several notes from your theories to include in the next edition of Threads!

    Trucklady: I too am hoping Gadreel turns out to be good and redeems himself in the angel war. I jumped at the new theory just so that I could repost a hopeful future for him!

    Percyowner: I am a HUGE Terry Hatcher fan! I would love to have her on the show. She would be a draw for the elusive male audience as well!

    Ikeke35: Interesting idea about Dean eventually passing the MoC to someone else. That would be a solution as to how he gets rid of it. I hadn’t thought about it being a [i]permanent[/i] part of the myth arc. Who would he pass it to, though? I don’t think he would pass it to Crowley because Dean doesn’t trust Crowley and it would make Crowley too powerful. He couldn’t pass it back to Cain because we are right back to him not being able to kill Cain when Cain is wearing the mark. So while I do think it makes sense that he will get rid of it eventually, and I don’t think we know enough of the mark’s myth yet to determine to whom it will be passed.

    Amyh: interesting theory that Cain was Lucifer’s target all along. Lucifer did seem to be that cunning. I don’t know though. Lucifer was very keen to possess Sam – the whole younger brother, always meant for each other thing. I think he would have been happy to get Abel, and centuries later, Sam. To Njspnfan’s point, though, now instead of Sam having to fight off Lucifer’s influences, it is Dean who has to battle becoming Lucifer’s pet. I love the reversal – walk a mile in my brother’s shoes.

    Hlnkid: I think you are right about the BIG thing Jared teased that would bring the boys back together is the MoC.

    Prix68: I like the parallel of Sam to Collette. Their love saved/will save the bearer of the MoC. In Farawayeyes’ review, she also makes a good argument for Sam being Abel. I think the writers did such a great job creating a parallel story, that they have a choice as to which direction they go with Sam. The first scenario leads to Sam saving Dean’s humanity; both scenarios lead to repairing the brotherly bond.

    Njspnfan: interesting speculation about Sam being possessed by Abaddon then dean has to kill him with the first blade; thus killing Abaddon and sending Sam to heaven. Perfect parallel with the Cain/Abel/Collette story. We will all just scream if that take it that far! It would be the season’s cliff-hanger, of course!

    Chokousei: Farawayeyes’ review included the exact quote about Sam and Dean being descended from Cain and Abel. Yes, that is why they were destined to be two brothers caught in the fight between good and evil. Whether Abel will appear is uncertain. He is presumably in Heaven, but anything is possible. His appearance would go along with Farawayeye’s theory about Dean and Sam’s reconciliation healing the rift between Cain and Abel.

    Cat: 1-24″ Dean immediately thought that meant that he was a killer. However, I don’t think that is what made Cain decide to give Dean the mark. After all, killing doesn’t make you worthy.” I agree. What exactly made Cain and Crowley believe / say that Dean was worthy? I believe that was a dangling thread left for us on purpose!

    Two more ideas that occurred to me after reading things this week: The two supernatural beings, Cas and Crowley, have learned a lot more about what it means to be human by becoming or nearly becoming human. The two humans, Sam and Dean, have been skirting the edges of becoming supernatural – Sam with Gadreel possessing him and Dean now with a supernatural MoC with whatever powers that entails. Again, a reversal.

    Cain seemed to be able to kill by “smiting” other demons, much the same as angels can kill by laying their hands on their victims. Cain’s glow of death is red. Crowley “essence” is red. Interesting.

    Reply

84. Wow! You have all added so many great theories to help us figure out what is going to happen next! I read that the next episode adds a lot of new information to the series’ myth arc as well. If the information is about the MoC or the Heaven/Hell wars, we will have a lot to sort through!

    Here are a few of my reactions to your comments. In addition to these comments, I also wrote down several notes from your theories to include in the next edition of Threads!

    Trucklady: I too am hoping Gadreel turns out to be good and redeems himself in the angel war. I jumped at the new theory just so that I could repost a hopeful future for him!

    Percyowner: I am a HUGE Terry Hatcher fan! I would love to have her on the show. She would be a draw for the elusive male audience as well!

    Ikeke35: Interesting idea about Dean eventually passing the MoC to someone else. That would be a solution as to how he gets rid of it. I hadn’t thought about it being a [i]permanent[/i] part of the myth arc. Who would he pass it to, though? I don’t think he would pass it to Crowley because Dean doesn’t trust Crowley and it would make Crowley too powerful. He couldn’t pass it back to Cain because we are right back to him not being able to kill Cain when Cain is wearing the mark. So while I do think it makes sense that he will get rid of it eventually, and I don’t think we know enough of the mark’s myth yet to determine to whom it will be passed.

    Amyh: interesting theory that Cain was Lucifer’s target all along. Lucifer did seem to be that cunning. I don’t know though. Lucifer was very keen to possess Sam – the whole younger brother, always meant for each other thing. I think he would have been happy to get Abel, and centuries later, Sam. To Njspnfan’s point, though, now instead of Sam having to fight off Lucifer’s influences, it is Dean who has to battle becoming Lucifer’s pet. I love the reversal – walk a mile in my brother’s shoes.

    Hlnkid: I think you are right about the BIG thing Jared teased that would bring the boys back together is the MoC.

    Prix68: I like the parallel of Sam to Collette. Their love saved/will save the bearer of the MoC. In Farawayeyes’ review, she also makes a good argument for Sam being Abel. I think the writers did such a great job creating a parallel story, that they have a choice as to which direction they go with Sam. The first scenario leads to Sam saving Dean’s humanity; both scenarios lead to repairing the brotherly bond.

    Njspnfan: interesting speculation about Sam being possessed by Abaddon then dean has to kill him with the first blade; thus killing Abaddon and sending Sam to heaven. Perfect parallel with the Cain/Abel/Collette story. We will all just scream if that take it that far! It would be the season’s cliff-hanger, of course!

    Chokousei: Farawayeyes’ review included the exact quote about Sam and Dean being descended from Cain and Abel. Yes, that is why they were destined to be two brothers caught in the fight between good and evil. Whether Abel will appear is uncertain. He is presumably in Heaven, but anything is possible. His appearance would go along with Farawayeye’s theory about Dean and Sam’s reconciliation healing the rift between Cain and Abel.

    Cat: 1-24″ Dean immediately thought that meant that he was a killer. However, I don’t think that is what made Cain decide to give Dean the mark. After all, killing doesn’t make you worthy.” I agree. What exactly made Cain and Crowley believe / say that Dean was worthy? I believe that was a dangling thread left for us on purpose!

    Two more ideas that occurred to me after reading things this week: The two supernatural beings, Cas and Crowley, have learned a lot more about what it means to be human by becoming or nearly becoming human. The two humans, Sam and Dean, have been skirting the edges of becoming supernatural – Sam with Gadreel possessing him and Dean now with a supernatural MoC with whatever powers that entails. Again, a reversal.

    Cain seemed to be able to kill by “smiting” other demons, much the same as angels can kill by laying their hands on their victims. Cain’s glow of death is red. Crowley “essence” is red. Interesting.

    Reply

85. Wow, this is a very interesting thread, so many great insights. I don’t know that having the mark of Cain will necessarily transform Dean into a demon. He is going down a very dark road, but even Cain managed to find some redemption, and his soul belongs to Lucifer. Dean didn’t sell his soul (not this season anyway).

    The ones speculating that Sam will be possessed by Abaddon and then killed by Dean, you made me shudder! 😮 I don’t see puppies and rainbows in the Winchesters future, but OMG, if one brother kills the other! I don’t even want to think about it.

    From having watched SPN from its inception, I can tell you Nightsky that I have always been on tinderhooks. Especially the end of the first season, with the truck hitting the Impala, and us fans not even knowing if the show was coming back. That would have killed me, not knowing what happened to all three Winchesters. So, nothing knew to this show giving me little heart attacks almost every episode. 😆

    Reply

86. Wow, this is a very interesting thread, so many great insights. I don’t know that having the mark of Cain will necessarily transform Dean into a demon. He is going down a very dark road, but even Cain managed to find some redemption, and his soul belongs to Lucifer. Dean didn’t sell his soul (not this season anyway).

    The ones speculating that Sam will be possessed by Abaddon and then killed by Dean, you made me shudder! 😮 I don’t see puppies and rainbows in the Winchesters future, but OMG, if one brother kills the other! I don’t even want to think about it.

    From having watched SPN from its inception, I can tell you Nightsky that I have always been on tinderhooks. Especially the end of the first season, with the truck hitting the Impala, and us fans not even knowing if the show was coming back. That would have killed me, not knowing what happened to all three Winchesters. So, nothing knew to this show giving me little heart attacks almost every episode. 😆

    Reply