Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 9×09 “Holy Terror”

203 Comments

1. Okay, let me throw this out there now. There is a reason that Castiel didn’t steal grace before. It’s very wrong. It’s like stealing someone else’s soul. Castiel has always been very moral. He did it because that angel killed Muriel because he “did what he had to do,” so Castiel decided that since this is war, he’ll do the same. Just judging by that conversation with Dean, he wasn’t proud of himself.

   No one complains more about retcon than me, but this time, the way it was presented, I’m not calling foul. I think the grace stealing thing was something that always could have been done, but it involved stooping to a new low. Metatron stole Cas’ grace rather easily, remember? It’s wrong, kind of like tricking your brother into angel possession, but not impossible. I think Castiel is going to suffer some consequences from doing that.

   I honestly liked this one. I’m stunned. These writers actually paid attention to their continuity this time! Congrats Brad and Eugenie for actually not writing a total disaster.

   ETA: Oh, how could I forget…..KEVIN!!!!

   [img]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/images/stories/crying3.gif[/img]

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2. Okay, let me throw this out there now. There is a reason that Castiel didn’t steal grace before. It’s very wrong. It’s like stealing someone else’s soul. Castiel has always been very moral. He did it because that angel killed Muriel because he “did what he had to do,” so Castiel decided that since this is war, he’ll do the same. Just judging by that conversation with Dean, he wasn’t proud of himself.

   No one complains more about retcon than me, but this time, the way it was presented, I’m not calling foul. I think the grace stealing thing was something that always could have been done, but it involved stooping to a new low. Metatron stole Cas’ grace rather easily, remember? It’s wrong, kind of like tricking your brother into angel possession, but not impossible. I think Castiel is going to suffer some consequences from doing that.

   I honestly liked this one. I’m stunned. These writers actually paid attention to their continuity this time! Congrats Brad and Eugenie for actually not writing a total disaster.

   ETA: Oh, how could I forget…..KEVIN!!!!

   [img]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/images/stories/crying3.gif[/img]

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3. You have made a lot of valid points here but I need a second viewing. Show bounced between story lines a lot in this episode and I’m still reeling from Kevin’s death so the rest of it is blurry right now. I’ll be back tomorrow night with more thoughts.

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4. You have made a lot of valid points here but I need a second viewing. Show bounced between story lines a lot in this episode and I’m still reeling from Kevin’s death so the rest of it is blurry right now. I’ll be back tomorrow night with more thoughts.

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5. I wouldn’t say Zeke was technically bad, until Metatron comes along that is. I mean he said he took the name Ezekiel so he could help. But screw him, he went darkside.

   I think a prophet needs to be activated somehow, like how Kevin was when the leviathan tablet was unearthed.

   The grace thing is a bit of a retcon, but still within canon. It’s described as an energy – “pure creation,” the equivalent of a soul, because Castiel and Anna retained their personalities.

   Kevin dying – What show have you been watching for the last nine seasons? Death on this show is not a question of “if” but “when.” He had a good run, sad to see him go.

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6. I wouldn’t say Zeke was technically bad, until Metatron comes along that is. I mean he said he took the name Ezekiel so he could help. But screw him, he went darkside.

   I think a prophet needs to be activated somehow, like how Kevin was when the leviathan tablet was unearthed.

   The grace thing is a bit of a retcon, but still within canon. It’s described as an energy – “pure creation,” the equivalent of a soul, because Castiel and Anna retained their personalities.

   Kevin dying – What show have you been watching for the last nine seasons? Death on this show is not a question of “if” but “when.” He had a good run, sad to see him go.

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7. loved the eppy. really do like metatron. i don’t think gadriel was playing sam this entire time. i got the impression, after watching twice, that gadriel just played at being sam in the last scene. they showed how he’d been eavesdropping, so when he learned of the plan, he kept sam down and he took over. what i don’t understand though was why kill kevin at all? was it really about gadriel proving his loyalty? sam/gad walked off with the tablets in the end, so why not just do that in the first place without killing anyone? if kevin doesn’t have a tablet, he’s really no threat at all. does metatron need kevin up in heaven for some reason? still scratching my head on this one. so so happy to have angel cas back. really looking forward to crowley getting sam back, what delicious symmetry that will be. sam putting humanity back into crowley and crowley getting sam strictly human sam again. it’s delicious. in all honesty i think crowley should be set free…..abbadon is much worse than crowley…at least he has a code …she’s strictly killing….better to deal with the devil you know…..be very glad when sam gets back and the boys can finally deal with what happened and thus move forward….they do after all have a job to do….take metatron down and get the angels back to heaven.
   i’m sorry they killed kevin, but in all honesty i found it a bit too crowded in the bunker. anyway nobody ever really dies on this show..i bet we see kevin again. 😉 really looking forward to the second half of the season…..

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8. loved the eppy. really do like metatron. i don’t think gadriel was playing sam this entire time. i got the impression, after watching twice, that gadriel just played at being sam in the last scene. they showed how he’d been eavesdropping, so when he learned of the plan, he kept sam down and he took over. what i don’t understand though was why kill kevin at all? was it really about gadriel proving his loyalty? sam/gad walked off with the tablets in the end, so why not just do that in the first place without killing anyone? if kevin doesn’t have a tablet, he’s really no threat at all. does metatron need kevin up in heaven for some reason? still scratching my head on this one. so so happy to have angel cas back. really looking forward to crowley getting sam back, what delicious symmetry that will be. sam putting humanity back into crowley and crowley getting sam strictly human sam again. it’s delicious. in all honesty i think crowley should be set free…..abbadon is much worse than crowley…at least he has a code …she’s strictly killing….better to deal with the devil you know…..be very glad when sam gets back and the boys can finally deal with what happened and thus move forward….they do after all have a job to do….take metatron down and get the angels back to heaven.
   i’m sorry they killed kevin, but in all honesty i found it a bit too crowded in the bunker. anyway nobody ever really dies on this show..i bet we see kevin again. 😉 really looking forward to the second half of the season…..

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9. Edit: I meant to say, not the equivalent of a soul, regarding angel grace.

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10. Edit: I meant to say, not the equivalent of a soul, regarding angel grace.

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11. Yeah…this episode messed me up big time. Personally, I have only been this angry at a Supernatural death once (Bobby). And honestly, maybe even more-so over KTAP than Bobby (Bobby was older and chose the lifestyle and yadda yadda). I am going to rewatch the episode during the J2 live tweet cuz it’s fun to get the input and also because I miss a bunch of stuff when I tweet while watching. After that, I will take some time to process this awful episode and see how I feel about everything at that point.

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12. Yeah…this episode messed me up big time. Personally, I have only been this angry at a Supernatural death once (Bobby). And honestly, maybe even more-so over KTAP than Bobby (Bobby was older and chose the lifestyle and yadda yadda). I am going to rewatch the episode during the J2 live tweet cuz it’s fun to get the input and also because I miss a bunch of stuff when I tweet while watching. After that, I will take some time to process this awful episode and see how I feel about everything at that point.

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13. I enjoyed this one – Shockingly. I really haven’t ever liked these writers, but this one is going to take some time to digest.

    Talk about an emotional punch! YIKES and SOB!

    But yes, there are issues with the episode – and the season. I do agree with some of your “didn’t like” list… most especially 1. (and 4 and 5). No secret I hated what season 8 did to my favourite character. Shame he really hasn’t been allowed to be himself this season. Although I’ve enjoyed watching the Gadrezekiel stuff, I miss Sam!… and I’m really going to miss Kevin (assuming Cas can’t restore him)…

    If heaven is closed – emptied of angels, and not receiving souls, (an assumption from Metatron’s comment about being lonely, so probably wrong).. where are all these souls going? Is Kevin simply hanging about? If Sam’s not around any more, maybe Kevin’s soul could eject Gad and catch a ride in his body? (If he’s not afraid of heights).

    And WHAT IS ABADDON DOING? Painting her nails? Wouldn’t this be a great time for the demons to take out all the grounded angels? Mini-apocalypse style?

    There’s an awful lot of loose plotlines out there! REALLY hoping they can tie ALL these stories into one cohesive tale.

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14. I enjoyed this one – Shockingly. I really haven’t ever liked these writers, but this one is going to take some time to digest.

    Talk about an emotional punch! YIKES and SOB!

    But yes, there are issues with the episode – and the season. I do agree with some of your “didn’t like” list… most especially 1. (and 4 and 5). No secret I hated what season 8 did to my favourite character. Shame he really hasn’t been allowed to be himself this season. Although I’ve enjoyed watching the Gadrezekiel stuff, I miss Sam!… and I’m really going to miss Kevin (assuming Cas can’t restore him)…

    If heaven is closed – emptied of angels, and not receiving souls, (an assumption from Metatron’s comment about being lonely, so probably wrong).. where are all these souls going? Is Kevin simply hanging about? If Sam’s not around any more, maybe Kevin’s soul could eject Gad and catch a ride in his body? (If he’s not afraid of heights).

    And WHAT IS ABADDON DOING? Painting her nails? Wouldn’t this be a great time for the demons to take out all the grounded angels? Mini-apocalypse style?

    There’s an awful lot of loose plotlines out there! REALLY hoping they can tie ALL these stories into one cohesive tale.

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15. [b]On a serious note, the fact that this show has spent almost two seasons erasing the character of Sam Winchester makes me so angry that I can’t talk about it without cursing.[/b] I can not agree more. Last season they refused to even come close to giving a Sam POV. Now “There is no Sam”? Have they decided they can’t write Sam and so are just going to have Jared play a possessed Sam?

    [b]Angel war is too complicated and makes no sense. It’s too confusing for me. Perhaps I need to watch again. [/b] Think The Godfather with added angel grace. That meeting struck me as being between 2 mob bosses negotiating for territory.

    [b]Kevin DYING. Carver is the devil. He’s the devil. Singer is the devil. They’ve combined to make a devil stew of evilness. If the site would allow it, I’d insert various gifs of devils for further explanation.[/b] That sucked. I’m glad It wasn’t Jodi, but really that sucked. Also, all Sam wanted was to be assured that he couldn’t be brought back and hurt people. Just being alive brought Gadriel into the Bunker. His body was used to kill Kevin. I don’t know HOW Sam comes to terms with this. A friend died as a consequence of Dean keeping Sam alive. Sam will eventually understand why Dean kept him alive. He could eventually forgive Dean’s lies, but being responsible for Kevin’s death? How does he forgive himself or Dean?

    Theories and questions for hiatus:

    [b]Now that we know Gadreel is the seducer of Eves and Deans, we got to get Sam out so how will that happen? Spoilers point to an unholy alliance.[/b] If Sam is in as bad a shape as Vesta and Gadriel indicated, will he die if Gadriel is expelled? What price will be paid to expell Gadriel? Will Sam be able to live with that, as opposed to just having Cas kill Gadriel and Sam at the same time?

    [b]I like the brother co-dependency but I have fears that we are being shown that Dean needs to let go. And I don’t like it.[/b] I think Dean needs to be able to allow Sam to make his own choices, not only what Dean wants.

    [b]I really hope Mama Tran did die now because I want to believe that she and Kevin are in heaven reading AP test manuals together.[/b] I like that image and Kevin and his girlfriend can still think they are not going to their safety schools.

    [b]How will Sam finally react? If he forgives Dean easily, then yeah we’re going to discuss consent issues again, show.[/b] I think Gadriel killing Kevin using Sam’s body is going to make forgiveness hard. I do hope that Sam tells Dean that he can NEVER THROW RUBY IN SAM’S FACE AGAIN. Because now Dean has trusted the wrong supernatural creature.

    [b]What’s up with Bartholomew? I really need clarification on the angel war. I really need it. [/b] I don’t expect any clarification on the angel war. The Leviathans did more in the first part of season seven than the angels have this season. I think they may be pulled out for one or two episodes, and then be completely ignored. I’m OVER the angel storyline. I could follow it in seasons 4-6, but Naomi and now Malachi and Bartholomew and Metatron I don’t understand and I’m not sure I care. I do think the fact that Cas has killed a bajillion angels both directly and indirectly has me baffled as to why any angel would do anything other than run screaming when they meet him.

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16. [b]On a serious note, the fact that this show has spent almost two seasons erasing the character of Sam Winchester makes me so angry that I can’t talk about it without cursing.[/b] I can not agree more. Last season they refused to even come close to giving a Sam POV. Now “There is no Sam”? Have they decided they can’t write Sam and so are just going to have Jared play a possessed Sam?

    [b]Angel war is too complicated and makes no sense. It’s too confusing for me. Perhaps I need to watch again. [/b] Think The Godfather with added angel grace. That meeting struck me as being between 2 mob bosses negotiating for territory.

    [b]Kevin DYING. Carver is the devil. He’s the devil. Singer is the devil. They’ve combined to make a devil stew of evilness. If the site would allow it, I’d insert various gifs of devils for further explanation.[/b] That sucked. I’m glad It wasn’t Jodi, but really that sucked. Also, all Sam wanted was to be assured that he couldn’t be brought back and hurt people. Just being alive brought Gadriel into the Bunker. His body was used to kill Kevin. I don’t know HOW Sam comes to terms with this. A friend died as a consequence of Dean keeping Sam alive. Sam will eventually understand why Dean kept him alive. He could eventually forgive Dean’s lies, but being responsible for Kevin’s death? How does he forgive himself or Dean?

    Theories and questions for hiatus:

    [b]Now that we know Gadreel is the seducer of Eves and Deans, we got to get Sam out so how will that happen? Spoilers point to an unholy alliance.[/b] If Sam is in as bad a shape as Vesta and Gadriel indicated, will he die if Gadriel is expelled? What price will be paid to expell Gadriel? Will Sam be able to live with that, as opposed to just having Cas kill Gadriel and Sam at the same time?

    [b]I like the brother co-dependency but I have fears that we are being shown that Dean needs to let go. And I don’t like it.[/b] I think Dean needs to be able to allow Sam to make his own choices, not only what Dean wants.

    [b]I really hope Mama Tran did die now because I want to believe that she and Kevin are in heaven reading AP test manuals together.[/b] I like that image and Kevin and his girlfriend can still think they are not going to their safety schools.

    [b]How will Sam finally react? If he forgives Dean easily, then yeah we’re going to discuss consent issues again, show.[/b] I think Gadriel killing Kevin using Sam’s body is going to make forgiveness hard. I do hope that Sam tells Dean that he can NEVER THROW RUBY IN SAM’S FACE AGAIN. Because now Dean has trusted the wrong supernatural creature.

    [b]What’s up with Bartholomew? I really need clarification on the angel war. I really need it. [/b] I don’t expect any clarification on the angel war. The Leviathans did more in the first part of season seven than the angels have this season. I think they may be pulled out for one or two episodes, and then be completely ignored. I’m OVER the angel storyline. I could follow it in seasons 4-6, but Naomi and now Malachi and Bartholomew and Metatron I don’t understand and I’m not sure I care. I do think the fact that Cas has killed a bajillion angels both directly and indirectly has me baffled as to why any angel would do anything other than run screaming when they meet him.

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17. So basically we have not had Sam at all .You can take the narrative out of the boy and the boy out of the narrative . Well done show. for reducing Sam to nothing.

    From main character at the begining to a meaningless angel condom that doesnt even represent you as a character it has been a long painful process but they finally got you there.

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18. So basically we have not had Sam at all .You can take the narrative out of the boy and the boy out of the narrative . Well done show. for reducing Sam to nothing.

    From main character at the begining to a meaningless angel condom that doesnt even represent you as a character it has been a long painful process but they finally got you there.

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19. I think Nappi may be right about Gadriel only faking Sam in the last scene. I don’t think he was impersonating Sam the whole time. The “there is no Sam” meant to me that Gadriel was running the show now.

    I enjoyed the episode, well not enjoyed exactly, but thought it was pretty well done. Kevin’s death was pretty much given away in the promo. I was hoping I was reading it wrong. I am very sad about Kevin but not totally shocked. Cas has been re-graced so I wouldn’t be surprised if Kevin made a reappearance.

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20. I think Nappi may be right about Gadriel only faking Sam in the last scene. I don’t think he was impersonating Sam the whole time. The “there is no Sam” meant to me that Gadriel was running the show now.

    I enjoyed the episode, well not enjoyed exactly, but thought it was pretty well done. Kevin’s death was pretty much given away in the promo. I was hoping I was reading it wrong. I am very sad about Kevin but not totally shocked. Cas has been re-graced so I wouldn’t be surprised if Kevin made a reappearance.

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21. Sooo…this is a speculation thread, so bear with me with my weird thoughts right now. I am sad about tonight’s show, but all episodes like this do is make me research the Biblical and religious history like a mad woman in search of answers.

    Historically/Biblically, Metatron was an angel raised up from a human prophet, Enoch. There were three parts to the Book of Enoch, and there are all sorts of fascinating parallels that I’ll leave for y’all to investigate about fallen angels, nephilim, Gadreel, Azazel, and others, if you haven’t already.

    On a really high meta level (and I’m not sure the writers would do this), maybe Metratron is trying to literally rewrite his Books of Enoch-like rewrite the history of humankind, heaven and hell.

    Another thing to consider is that Gadreel was believed to be the true father of Cain and Abel-we are supposed to see Cain later this season, aren’t we? Are the boys descended down the line from them? Perhaps Gadreel will realize he’s going against family and betray Metatron, and we’ll get Sam back.

    I had lots of questions at the end of this episode-like would Gadreel really be affected by Crowley’s torture like we saw in the clip? If he was supposed to be the angel of war who spent thousands of years in a heaven dungeon, wouldn’t he be pretty hardened to that sort of thing? And when Metatron noted that he made all the angels fall from heaven-was that a deliberate note to make sure we realized he didn’t let Lucifer and Michael out of the cage, or a note to make us think that Lucifer and Michael could be included in that fallen angels group?

    OK, that’s enough crazy speculating for now-there will be plenty of time for more in the next five weeks.

    For now, RIP Kevin. 🙁

    Edit: I, for some reason, just made the connection with Enochian… heh… very long day…

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22. Not Kevin! Dognabit! I have stronger actual words for that but not sure if they’d be accepted but you get the picture! I don’t think that Gadreel has been “Sam” up until this episode because he needed to be undercover now to help out Metatron. Sam has been far too close to himself and Gad was just hiding before so no need to act as if he’s Sam. I was so happy Dean was telling him the truth and then BAM it was Gad!

    I wonder if since it’s not actually Cas’s grace if he’ll be full powered like he was before … I will allow the recton because it’s never been discussed since the only graceless angels have ever been Anna and Cas. It was something he had to do, it was either that, die or try and work with Metatron (nope, he’s not falling for that again) so I’m okay with it.

    Metatron, oh man, he’s tricked Cas into helping the angels fall, stolen his grace and now had Gad kill Kevin. I already hated him, but now I hope one of the boys or Cas (it will probably be Cas I’m betting) gets to stick an angel blade through him at the end of the season. I keep hoping Dean can call Cas to heal Kevin and then hide him but Cas might not have that kind of juice.

    And Dean, he’s far from the least of my worries, but he’s so not in good shape! My heart hurts for him! At least he can pray to Cas for help again but that’s all he’s got! Looks like from the preview for next week he has his help but at the moment it’s just bad!

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23. Not Kevin! Dognabit! I have stronger actual words for that but not sure if they’d be accepted but you get the picture! I don’t think that Gadreel has been “Sam” up until this episode because he needed to be undercover now to help out Metatron. Sam has been far too close to himself and Gad was just hiding before so no need to act as if he’s Sam. I was so happy Dean was telling him the truth and then BAM it was Gad!

    I wonder if since it’s not actually Cas’s grace if he’ll be full powered like he was before … I will allow the recton because it’s never been discussed since the only graceless angels have ever been Anna and Cas. It was something he had to do, it was either that, die or try and work with Metatron (nope, he’s not falling for that again) so I’m okay with it.

    Metatron, oh man, he’s tricked Cas into helping the angels fall, stolen his grace and now had Gad kill Kevin. I already hated him, but now I hope one of the boys or Cas (it will probably be Cas I’m betting) gets to stick an angel blade through him at the end of the season. I keep hoping Dean can call Cas to heal Kevin and then hide him but Cas might not have that kind of juice.

    And Dean, he’s far from the least of my worries, but he’s so not in good shape! My heart hurts for him! At least he can pray to Cas for help again but that’s all he’s got! Looks like from the preview for next week he has his help but at the moment it’s just bad!

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24. In my opinion, Sam was Sam until the last scene with Dean and Kevin. His eyes flashed blue when Gad took over, but they did not flash when he ran in to get the tablets and kill Kevin so he was Gad, not Sam, when he was putting the beer away and from there forward. His eyes not flashing just confirmed what I suspected – that Sam was not in the previous confrontation with Dean. A big clue for me – why wouldn’t Sam have said I’ve been gone a long time, getting the beer?! if it had been Sam. Gad knew he’d been gone a while, meeting with Metatron and getting his orders, but Sam wouldn’t have known that. Actually, Jared was Gad for most of this episode, but he was Sam in the others unless his eyes flashed blue.

    Geez, I don’t know how the writers are going to manage to fix this mess. Sam may have been able to understand and possibly forgive angel possession to save his life, but having it mean he indirectly killed Kevin?! Wow, just wow.

    I so loved the brothers getting along and working together and now!!! 😥

    And no Kevin! 😥 😥

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25. In my opinion, Sam was Sam until the last scene with Dean and Kevin. His eyes flashed blue when Gad took over, but they did not flash when he ran in to get the tablets and kill Kevin so he was Gad, not Sam, when he was putting the beer away and from there forward. His eyes not flashing just confirmed what I suspected – that Sam was not in the previous confrontation with Dean. A big clue for me – why wouldn’t Sam have said I’ve been gone a long time, getting the beer?! if it had been Sam. Gad knew he’d been gone a while, meeting with Metatron and getting his orders, but Sam wouldn’t have known that. Actually, Jared was Gad for most of this episode, but he was Sam in the others unless his eyes flashed blue.

    Geez, I don’t know how the writers are going to manage to fix this mess. Sam may have been able to understand and possibly forgive angel possession to save his life, but having it mean he indirectly killed Kevin?! Wow, just wow.

    I so loved the brothers getting along and working together and now!!! 😥

    And no Kevin! 😥 😥

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26. I don’t think it really matters if Gadriel only began impersonating Sam after he overheard Dean and Kevin talking, or if he was doing it all the time. The point is, we couldn’t tell. We are so used to Sam being so muted that there were no obvious clues that he might not be Sam. Now some people did say that he didn’t seem to be figuring out the weirdness quickly enough, and there was all the strangeness about whether he was healing and how quickly or slowly. But I’ll be you could go back and look at every scene and every interaction and still not find anything definitively “Sam” that could not be explained away by the fact that Gadriel had access to all Sam’s memories.

    I thought the line “Sam is no more” was incredibly ironic because it describes what has happened to the character. He’s not dead, he’s right there, and yet he hardly exists.

    I’m bummed at being robbed of Sam’s genuine reaction to Dean’s telling him the truth. I’m bummed that I have to go back and revise my thinking about the last seven episodes in light of now knowing that Sam is not possessed by who we thought he was, and that his possessing angel is worse than even Ezekiel was.

    And all this is overshadowed by Kevin’s death, even for Dean.

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27. I don’t think it really matters if Gadriel only began impersonating Sam after he overheard Dean and Kevin talking, or if he was doing it all the time. The point is, we couldn’t tell. We are so used to Sam being so muted that there were no obvious clues that he might not be Sam. Now some people did say that he didn’t seem to be figuring out the weirdness quickly enough, and there was all the strangeness about whether he was healing and how quickly or slowly. But I’ll be you could go back and look at every scene and every interaction and still not find anything definitively “Sam” that could not be explained away by the fact that Gadriel had access to all Sam’s memories.

    I thought the line “Sam is no more” was incredibly ironic because it describes what has happened to the character. He’s not dead, he’s right there, and yet he hardly exists.

    I’m bummed at being robbed of Sam’s genuine reaction to Dean’s telling him the truth. I’m bummed that I have to go back and revise my thinking about the last seven episodes in light of now knowing that Sam is not possessed by who we thought he was, and that his possessing angel is worse than even Ezekiel was.

    And all this is overshadowed by Kevin’s death, even for Dean.

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28. I too enjoyed the episode, and didn’t think that Gadreel was pretending to be Sam the entire time… I also took it to mean that he was playing Sam in that final scene in the storage room. For now, I’m just going to hang on to the hope that Kevin will be back. Yes, I know, this would mean death doesn’t mean anything on this show… but haven’t they established that already?

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29. I too enjoyed the episode, and didn’t think that Gadreel was pretending to be Sam the entire time… I also took it to mean that he was playing Sam in that final scene in the storage room. For now, I’m just going to hang on to the hope that Kevin will be back. Yes, I know, this would mean death doesn’t mean anything on this show… but haven’t they established that already?

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30. I am sorry Kevin is dead but he at least cant hurt anymore. Sam is still living his nightmare and the hurting doesnt stop ever , he is never allowed any sort of peace .

    And now he doesnt even exist and the angel Gadreel does . And when and if he ever comes back he will have to know what happened with Kevin and it was by his hand even though he was not in control .

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31. I am sorry Kevin is dead but he at least cant hurt anymore. Sam is still living his nightmare and the hurting doesnt stop ever , he is never allowed any sort of peace .

    And now he doesnt even exist and the angel Gadreel does . And when and if he ever comes back he will have to know what happened with Kevin and it was by his hand even though he was not in control .

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32. [quote name=”nickmaniac”]I too enjoyed the episode, and didn’t think that Gadreel was pretending to be Sam the entire time… I also took it to mean that he was playing Sam in that final scene in the storage room. For now, I’m just going to hang on to the hope that Kevin will be back. Yes, I know, this would mean death doesn’t mean anything on this show… but haven’t they established that already?[/quote]

    Well, if you’re named Sam, Dean or Castiel, death is temporary. Everyone else (special exception for Bobby in “Swan Song” and Charlie). it’s fairly permanent. I mean a character will pop up as a ghost maybe, when someone dies they stay dead.

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33. [quote]I too enjoyed the episode, and didn’t think that Gadreel was pretending to be Sam the entire time… I also took it to mean that he was playing Sam in that final scene in the storage room. For now, I’m just going to hang on to the hope that Kevin will be back. Yes, I know, this would mean death doesn’t mean anything on this show… but haven’t they established that already?[/quote]

    Well, if you’re named Sam, Dean or Castiel, death is temporary. Everyone else (special exception for Bobby in “Swan Song” and Charlie). it’s fairly permanent. I mean a character will pop up as a ghost maybe, when someone dies they stay dead.

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34. What an amazing episode! I loved it! It was clear to me that it was Sam – his humor with Cas, etc.,- until Gadreal heard Dean and Kevin talking and took over, pretending to be Sam. I cannot wait for January 14! You know the deal with Crowley will be all sorts of fun to watch.

    I also found Metatron’s approach to Gadriel similar to the way he conned Cas. He is just EVIL huh? Also – not so sure we have lost Kevin. Cas has his mojo back so he could bring him back. Good of him to have gotten that mojo back now.

    I gotta say it – I thought these writers hit it out of the park this time. I agree with Alice that the stealing of the grace did not seem like a retcon. The whole episode worked for me. While on the subject – directing, music, lighting, photography – and oh yeah – the amazing acting!!! I know I am gushing, but cannot help it. This one was a 10 in my book.

    And – oh look – it is now on demand, so I can watch again. Happy girl here.

    Reply

35. What an amazing episode! I loved it! It was clear to me that it was Sam – his humor with Cas, etc.,- until Gadreal heard Dean and Kevin talking and took over, pretending to be Sam. I cannot wait for January 14! You know the deal with Crowley will be all sorts of fun to watch.

    I also found Metatron’s approach to Gadriel similar to the way he conned Cas. He is just EVIL huh? Also – not so sure we have lost Kevin. Cas has his mojo back so he could bring him back. Good of him to have gotten that mojo back now.

    I gotta say it – I thought these writers hit it out of the park this time. I agree with Alice that the stealing of the grace did not seem like a retcon. The whole episode worked for me. While on the subject – directing, music, lighting, photography – and oh yeah – the amazing acting!!! I know I am gushing, but cannot help it. This one was a 10 in my book.

    And – oh look – it is now on demand, so I can watch again. Happy girl here.

    Reply

36. 😥 I don;t have much to say that wasn’t already said……. but………..
    [b]I want Sammy back!!!![/b]
    No more Sam meat suits please. ugh… I just want the boy. Why? Why, oh why? And bring him back with a punch. Let us [i]see[/i] Sam
    Again- [b]I want sammy back, NOW![/b]
    Okay, enough said. Sigh……………

    Reply

37. 😥 I don;t have much to say that wasn’t already said……. but………..
    [b]I want Sammy back!!!![/b]
    No more Sam meat suits please. ugh… I just want the boy. Why? Why, oh why? And bring him back with a punch. Let us [i]see[/i] Sam
    Again- [b]I want sammy back, NOW![/b]
    Okay, enough said. Sigh……………

    Reply

38. Poor Sam and Dean and Kevin. I am in shock. 😥 😥

    But on a less sad note, I’m not sure killing Kevin is the smartest thing Metatron has done. I mean do you really want a prophet with knowledge of the Angel Tablet in Heaven, especially with all the angels gone and Metatron hanging around on earth?? I know Metatron doesn’t know about Ash, but can you see Kevin and Ash getting together in Heaven? With all their knowledge they’d take over Heaven with in a month! (Unless killing Kevin is just so Metatron can get him alone in Heaven?? 😮 )

    Reply

39. Loved the episode, esp the twist with the Not-Zeke after all twist. Didn’t see that one coming.

    And OMG, they killed Kevin!!! 🙂 Actually, that doesn’t surprise me. I think he’d run his course and it seemed to me they were struggling to try and fit him into episodes. And his death brings Crowley back into play big time.

    And Dean, oh, Dean….how deeply you’ve created this mess now. Poor guy needs a serious hug, he’s so far into it. He created this whole mess and it gets deeper every second. Can’t wait to see how it all works out.

    I’m not usually one for many solo Cas scenes, but his were excellent last night (not boring as in the Cas is human ep a while back). Like Dean, doing what he had to do to save Sam with the whole angel possession thing…Cas do what he had to do in offing a fellow angel to get his (or a good enough version) grace back.

    Great acting last night from all. Awesome to see Metatron again and his plotting. Gonna be a long 5 weeks of waiting until Jan 14.

    Reply

40. Loved the episode, esp the twist with the Not-Zeke after all twist. Didn’t see that one coming.

    And OMG, they killed Kevin!!! 🙂 Actually, that doesn’t surprise me. I think he’d run his course and it seemed to me they were struggling to try and fit him into episodes. And his death brings Crowley back into play big time.

    And Dean, oh, Dean….how deeply you’ve created this mess now. Poor guy needs a serious hug, he’s so far into it. He created this whole mess and it gets deeper every second. Can’t wait to see how it all works out.

    I’m not usually one for many solo Cas scenes, but his were excellent last night (not boring as in the Cas is human ep a while back). Like Dean, doing what he had to do to save Sam with the whole angel possession thing…Cas do what he had to do in offing a fellow angel to get his (or a good enough version) grace back.

    Great acting last night from all. Awesome to see Metatron again and his plotting. Gonna be a long 5 weeks of waiting until Jan 14.

    Reply

41. Kudos to everyone who saw this coming. Personally, I’m mourning my hopes for “Zeke” as much as Kevin. Maybe there’s a pro angel support group out there somewhere. I may need someone to talk me down.

    Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if Gad (yuk, no wonder he changed his name 🙂 ) does something magnanimous before the end leading to his demise. He obviously has to die now.

    I think someone should create a sigil to be the new name for the angel formerly known as Zeke. I really can’t get behind Gad.

    On the positive, I LOVED seeing Cas get angel juice. Yeah, yeah, I have angel issues. I also like the idea of a fallen angel trying to rehabilitate his image inside Sam. It kind of mirrors Sam’s view of himself- not that I see Sam that way.

    Reply

42. Kudos to everyone who saw this coming. Personally, I’m mourning my hopes for “Zeke” as much as Kevin. Maybe there’s a pro angel support group out there somewhere. I may need someone to talk me down.

    Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if Gad (yuk, no wonder he changed his name 🙂 ) does something magnanimous before the end leading to his demise. He obviously has to die now.

    I think someone should create a sigil to be the new name for the angel formerly known as Zeke. I really can’t get behind Gad.

    On the positive, I LOVED seeing Cas get angel juice. Yeah, yeah, I have angel issues. I also like the idea of a fallen angel trying to rehabilitate his image inside Sam. It kind of mirrors Sam’s view of himself- not that I see Sam that way.

    Reply

43. Oh man. I went to bed really pissed off last night. I should have been better prepared, because the minute Dean told Kevin he was family, that pretty much sealed his fate. And although I was expecting Kevin to be the one to die, it still came as a shock to me. 😥 And I agree, I hope his mom is dead and they are together in their Heaven. Although what is Heaven really like now that Metatron is the one in charge? Think about it, not even Joshua is there anymore to tend to the garden. 😕 On a side note, Metatron needs to die!!!!

    I find it interesting that the angels turned out to be even worse that demons. At least demons are willing to follow one leader! 😆 I think Abaddon needs to get some of these badass angels on board with her. :-* I’m left wondering how Cass will feel with some other angel’s grace inside him. Will it start screwing with him somehow? And Dean and Sam, oh Dear God. I’m just speechless. How will Sam ever forgive Dean, how will Dean ever forgive himself? It’s going to drive me gaga all through hiatus. 🙁

    RIP Kevin Tran, you will be sorely missed.

    Reply

44. Oh man. I went to bed really pissed off last night. I should have been better prepared, because the minute Dean told Kevin he was family, that pretty much sealed his fate. And although I was expecting Kevin to be the one to die, it still came as a shock to me. 😥 And I agree, I hope his mom is dead and they are together in their Heaven. Although what is Heaven really like now that Metatron is the one in charge? Think about it, not even Joshua is there anymore to tend to the garden. 😕 On a side note, Metatron needs to die!!!!

    I find it interesting that the angels turned out to be even worse that demons. At least demons are willing to follow one leader! 😆 I think Abaddon needs to get some of these badass angels on board with her. :-* I’m left wondering how Cass will feel with some other angel’s grace inside him. Will it start screwing with him somehow? And Dean and Sam, oh Dear God. I’m just speechless. How will Sam ever forgive Dean, how will Dean ever forgive himself? It’s going to drive me gaga all through hiatus. 🙁

    RIP Kevin Tran, you will be sorely missed.

    Reply

45. I thought the episode was really good, and the fact that it was written by this particular writing team and it DIDN’T totally piss me off with useless retcon is a major win. I suppose that stealing the angel grace thing is somewhat of a retcon, but it didn’t bother me in this case and seemed less destructive than all the reaper lore ridiculousness.

    When Kevin died, I just kept yelling at the screen, “call Cas! Call Cas!” he’s got his mojo back (or at least someone else’s mojo) so he should be able to help. I hope Kevin isn’t dead for good, but I think maybe he is. Damned you show! I really liked him. 😥

    Poor Sammy, how will he be able to live with what he was forced to do against his will? Even though it wasn’t his fault he will blame himself terribly.. and how can he forgive Dean? How will Dean forgive himself? Sam will think he should have died for sure now. Oh what a tangled web….

    And I totally called it too; I kept posting the idea that we had no way of knowing if the angel inside Sam was even Ezekiel and I was right! A-hem…sorry for my self-congratulations, but I love being right about this show and I almost never am. Gadriel.. I am not sure that he’s totally bad either, he just seemed incredibly scared and desperate, doing what he had to do, which seems to be a running theme this year. I wonder if Gadriel will come to realize that he also made a terrible mistake and end up betraying Metatron to help the Winchesters in the end? And I love that where the story is now forces Dean to go down another shady road by having him make a deal with Crowley; that slippery slope just keeps getting slipperier.

    So all in all, a very satisfying mid-season finale from an often shaky writing team. Maybe they are getting better?

    Reply

46. I thought the episode was really good, and the fact that it was written by this particular writing team and it DIDN’T totally piss me off with useless retcon is a major win. I suppose that stealing the angel grace thing is somewhat of a retcon, but it didn’t bother me in this case and seemed less destructive than all the reaper lore ridiculousness.

    When Kevin died, I just kept yelling at the screen, “call Cas! Call Cas!” he’s got his mojo back (or at least someone else’s mojo) so he should be able to help. I hope Kevin isn’t dead for good, but I think maybe he is. Damned you show! I really liked him. 😥

    Poor Sammy, how will he be able to live with what he was forced to do against his will? Even though it wasn’t his fault he will blame himself terribly.. and how can he forgive Dean? How will Dean forgive himself? Sam will think he should have died for sure now. Oh what a tangled web….

    And I totally called it too; I kept posting the idea that we had no way of knowing if the angel inside Sam was even Ezekiel and I was right! A-hem…sorry for my self-congratulations, but I love being right about this show and I almost never am. Gadriel.. I am not sure that he’s totally bad either, he just seemed incredibly scared and desperate, doing what he had to do, which seems to be a running theme this year. I wonder if Gadriel will come to realize that he also made a terrible mistake and end up betraying Metatron to help the Winchesters in the end? And I love that where the story is now forces Dean to go down another shady road by having him make a deal with Crowley; that slippery slope just keeps getting slipperier.

    So all in all, a very satisfying mid-season finale from an often shaky writing team. Maybe they are getting better?

    Reply

47. Wow, didn’t see that coming; had to watch it again to take everything in. I really enjoyed this one, even though I might have to start taking notes during the show. If there was one complaint about this season it would be the pacing; we have a couple of slow leisurely episodes, then hit full throttle in this one. Congrats to the many smart folks that speculated that Zeke isn’t really Zeke (and kudos to yours truly for guessing that Dean would have to work with Crowley to get Sam back- I rarely guess right so it’s nice when it happens).

    I didn’t view Castiel’s taking another angel’s grace as a retcon, and agree with Alice that this is about as low as an angel can stoop and that’s why we haven’t seen it before (IMO Angels would view Angels that did this similarly to how inmates view child molesters in jail).

    So it looks like we have 3 factions vying for heaven; the corporatists headed by Bartholomew, the anarchists headed by Malachi, and the batshit crazy/meglomaniac faction headed by Metatron.

    Poor Kevin; he really grew on me since S8 but, then again, this wouldn’t be Supernatural if they didn’t kill off a beloved character once and a while. There must be something on the tablet that Metatron doesn’t want them to find out about; Kevin alluded to that in his conversation with Dean.

    And Dean, Dean, Dean… not sure how he’s going to get past this, or forgive himself for what happened. This was a member of his family, after all. Now he’s lost Kevin and Sam (at least for now). I read that JA mentioned at BurCon that Dean’s in a dark place and can certainly understand why he said that.

    I agree with everyone that’s saying that Gadriel only fully took over Sam towards the end, either in the kitchen but definitely while in the store room. Poor Sam, absolutely no control over his destiny, no free will whatsoever. Wonder how Sam will react to what happened to Kevin when he regains control of himself. And, I really, really, really hope they don’t gloss over Sam’s reaction to Dean when everything is out in the open, as they have done in the past. Granted, the Amy situation in S7 was contrived but the “resolution” in Lily Dale was even worse.

    In the preview, what Crowley attempts to do looks like a nice throwback to S4 where Alistair almost ejected Castiel from his vessel twice – wonder what happens when an angel gets ejected now? They can’t go back to heaven.

    Reply

48. Wow, didn’t see that coming; had to watch it again to take everything in. I really enjoyed this one, even though I might have to start taking notes during the show. If there was one complaint about this season it would be the pacing; we have a couple of slow leisurely episodes, then hit full throttle in this one. Congrats to the many smart folks that speculated that Zeke isn’t really Zeke (and kudos to yours truly for guessing that Dean would have to work with Crowley to get Sam back- I rarely guess right so it’s nice when it happens).

    I didn’t view Castiel’s taking another angel’s grace as a retcon, and agree with Alice that this is about as low as an angel can stoop and that’s why we haven’t seen it before (IMO Angels would view Angels that did this similarly to how inmates view child molesters in jail).

    So it looks like we have 3 factions vying for heaven; the corporatists headed by Bartholomew, the anarchists headed by Malachi, and the batshit crazy/meglomaniac faction headed by Metatron.

    Poor Kevin; he really grew on me since S8 but, then again, this wouldn’t be Supernatural if they didn’t kill off a beloved character once and a while. There must be something on the tablet that Metatron doesn’t want them to find out about; Kevin alluded to that in his conversation with Dean.

    And Dean, Dean, Dean… not sure how he’s going to get past this, or forgive himself for what happened. This was a member of his family, after all. Now he’s lost Kevin and Sam (at least for now). I read that JA mentioned at BurCon that Dean’s in a dark place and can certainly understand why he said that.

    I agree with everyone that’s saying that Gadriel only fully took over Sam towards the end, either in the kitchen but definitely while in the store room. Poor Sam, absolutely no control over his destiny, no free will whatsoever. Wonder how Sam will react to what happened to Kevin when he regains control of himself. And, I really, really, really hope they don’t gloss over Sam’s reaction to Dean when everything is out in the open, as they have done in the past. Granted, the Amy situation in S7 was contrived but the “resolution” in Lily Dale was even worse.

    In the preview, what Crowley attempts to do looks like a nice throwback to S4 where Alistair almost ejected Castiel from his vessel twice – wonder what happens when an angel gets ejected now? They can’t go back to heaven.

    Reply

49. Just one thought amongst all my other thoughts:

    I was under the impression (I admit I don’t know why I think this) that when someone dies with the light shooting out of their eyes, their soul is dead. Zachariah and Uriel didn’t go back to heaven. Alistair didn’t know how to kill Cas in “On the Head of a Pin.” He stated he was sending him back to heaven.

    So, correct me here!! I thought that when the angels were “killing” the demons that way, they weren’t sending them back to hell, they were actually killing them and getting them out of the way.

    So I was extra freaked out for Kevin. I am afraid he is just dead and not going to heaven. (Not that heaven is all that great. It might be better to be dead. Another internal discussion.)

    I know I inferred a lot. And I probably shouldn’t have. It isn’t “canon.” It is just what I think.

    Help me out here! What have y’all been thinking?
    I don’t want Kevin to be dead!

    Reply

50. Just one thought amongst all my other thoughts:

    I was under the impression (I admit I don’t know why I think this) that when someone dies with the light shooting out of their eyes, their soul is dead. Zachariah and Uriel didn’t go back to heaven. Alistair didn’t know how to kill Cas in “On the Head of a Pin.” He stated he was sending him back to heaven.

    So, correct me here!! I thought that when the angels were “killing” the demons that way, they weren’t sending them back to hell, they were actually killing them and getting them out of the way.

    So I was extra freaked out for Kevin. I am afraid he is just dead and not going to heaven. (Not that heaven is all that great. It might be better to be dead. Another internal discussion.)

    I know I inferred a lot. And I probably shouldn’t have. It isn’t “canon.” It is just what I think.

    Help me out here! What have y’all been thinking?
    I don’t want Kevin to be dead!

    Reply

51. [quote name=”Sharon”]So basically we have not had Sam at all .[/quote]
    Hi Sharon,
    I took the last scene as Sam was only not really there after Dean did the spell, because Gadreal heard the plan to “cover his ears” while Dean told Sam the truth. I didn’t take it as Gadreal has really been Sam the entire S9.

    Reply

52. [quote]So basically we have not had Sam at all .[/quote]
    Hi Sharon,
    I took the last scene as Sam was only not really there after Dean did the spell, because Gadreal heard the plan to “cover his ears” while Dean told Sam the truth. I didn’t take it as Gadreal has really been Sam the entire S9.

    Reply

53. [quote name=”alice”]I honestly liked this one. I’m stunned. These writers actually paid attention to their continuity this time! Congrats Brad and Eugenie for actually not writing a total disaster.[/quote]
    I think that was maybe the biggest surprise? Do you think with all the negative response there was to ep. 3 and these writers, that JC and company tweeked this episode? I also agree with your comments on Cas and his mojo…..he had done a lot of bad things as an Angel that have depressed him for a long time, I could see him wanting to be human, at least for a while. Now that he is needed as an Angel, in another war, mojo steal makes sense. Overall I was on the edge of my seat the entire ep, and my jaw was on the floor for the last 5 minutes. I’ve said the show has not surprised me in a long time with a good shocker, last night was bunker-buster of a bombshell.

    Reply

54. [quote]I honestly liked this one. I’m stunned. These writers actually paid attention to their continuity this time! Congrats Brad and Eugenie for actually not writing a total disaster.[/quote]
    I think that was maybe the biggest surprise? Do you think with all the negative response there was to ep. 3 and these writers, that JC and company tweeked this episode? I also agree with your comments on Cas and his mojo…..he had done a lot of bad things as an Angel that have depressed him for a long time, I could see him wanting to be human, at least for a while. Now that he is needed as an Angel, in another war, mojo steal makes sense. Overall I was on the edge of my seat the entire ep, and my jaw was on the floor for the last 5 minutes. I’ve said the show has not surprised me in a long time with a good shocker, last night was bunker-buster of a bombshell.

    Reply

55. [quote]I was under the impression (I admit I don’t know why I think this) that when someone dies with the light shooting out of their eyes, their soul is dead. Zachariah and Uriel didn’t go back to heaven. Alistair didn’t know how to kill Cas in “On the Head of a Pin.” He stated he was sending him back to heaven.

    So, correct me here!! I thought that when the angels were “killing” the demons that way, they weren’t sending them back to hell, they were actually killing them and getting them out of the way.

    So I was extra freaked out for Kevin. I am afraid he is just dead and not going to heaven. (Not that heaven is all that great. It might be better to be dead. Another internal discussion.)

    I know I inferred a lot. And I probably shouldn’t have. It isn’t “canon.” It is just what I think.

    Help me out here! What have y’all been thinking?
    I don’t want Kevin to be dead![/quote]

    love2boys – The rules for human souls differ very much from angels and demons. In a sense, angels and demons don’t have souls. So when they die, they die. Humans do have souls and being a prophet, I’m sure Kevin has ascended in to Heaven. Where hopefully he’ll get to kick some Metatron ass! 🙂

    Reply

56. [quote]I was under the impression (I admit I don’t know why I think this) that when someone dies with the light shooting out of their eyes, their soul is dead. Zachariah and Uriel didn’t go back to heaven. Alistair didn’t know how to kill Cas in “On the Head of a Pin.” He stated he was sending him back to heaven.

    So, correct me here!! I thought that when the angels were “killing” the demons that way, they weren’t sending them back to hell, they were actually killing them and getting them out of the way.

    So I was extra freaked out for Kevin. I am afraid he is just dead and not going to heaven. (Not that heaven is all that great. It might be better to be dead. Another internal discussion.)

    I know I inferred a lot. And I probably shouldn’t have. It isn’t “canon.” It is just what I think.

    Help me out here! What have y’all been thinking?
    I don’t want Kevin to be dead![/quote]

    love2boys – The rules for human souls differ very much from angels and demons. In a sense, angels and demons don’t have souls. So when they die, they die. Humans do have souls and being a prophet, I’m sure Kevin has ascended in to Heaven. Where hopefully he’ll get to kick some Metatron ass! 🙂

    Reply

57. I agree that Gadriel only took over when he was evesdropping. I agree that stealing the angel grace is not a retcon, since horrible evil Metatron did it already.

    I am [b]very[/b] sad for my brothers. It is a long time until January 14.

    Reply

58. I agree that Gadriel only took over when he was evesdropping. I agree that stealing the angel grace is not a retcon, since horrible evil Metatron did it already.

    I am [b]very[/b] sad for my brothers. It is a long time until January 14.

    Reply

59. [quote name=”njspnfan”] And, I really, really, really hope they don’t gloss over Sam’s reaction to Dean when everything is out in the open, as they have done in the past. Granted, the Amy situation in S7 was contrived but the “resolution” in Lily Dale was even worse.
    .[/quote]

    Oh, njspnfan… you took the words right outta my mouth. I hope they don’t gloss it over either! (i.e. Sam’s only allowed to be upset for as long as Dean feels that he should be upset, then calls him a bitch and tells him to get over it.) My real fear is that after they put Sam through the torture of extracting the angel that he’ll conveniently not be able to remember anything (god save us from THAT, PLEASE!!) Sam has a right to react, feel guilty, angry, betrayed, devastated and anything else he needs to feel, and I hope that they let that play out logically and don’t chicken out by having an ‘amnesia’ story or a ‘get over yourself’ story. We shall see………..

    Reply

60. [quote] And, I really, really, really hope they don’t gloss over Sam’s reaction to Dean when everything is out in the open, as they have done in the past. Granted, the Amy situation in S7 was contrived but the “resolution” in Lily Dale was even worse.
    .[/quote]

    Oh, njspnfan… you took the words right outta my mouth. I hope they don’t gloss it over either! (i.e. Sam’s only allowed to be upset for as long as Dean feels that he should be upset, then calls him a bitch and tells him to get over it.) My real fear is that after they put Sam through the torture of extracting the angel that he’ll conveniently not be able to remember anything (god save us from THAT, PLEASE!!) Sam has a right to react, feel guilty, angry, betrayed, devastated and anything else he needs to feel, and I hope that they let that play out logically and don’t chicken out by having an ‘amnesia’ story or a ‘get over yourself’ story. We shall see………..

    Reply

61. I’m traumatized. I don’t know what to do with myself. I don’t even know what year I’m in. Poor Kevin. I adored that man. I screamed “No!” at my television the same way Dean did when Jake stabbed Sam in the back. It’s like Ellen and Jo all over again. I need therapy. Thanks a lot Show.

    Reply

62. I’m traumatized. I don’t know what to do with myself. I don’t even know what year I’m in. Poor Kevin. I adored that man. I screamed “No!” at my television the same way Dean did when Jake stabbed Sam in the back. It’s like Ellen and Jo all over again. I need therapy. Thanks a lot Show.

    Reply

63. [quote name=”Nate”][quote name=”Sharon”]So basically we have not had Sam at all .[/quote]
    Hi Sharon,
    I took the last scene as Sam was only not really there after Dean did the spell, because Gadreal heard the plan to “cover his ears” while Dean told Sam the truth. I didn’t take it as Gadreal has really been Sam the entire S9.[/quote]
    Either way it does not make the situation any better .

    Reply

64. [quote][quote]So basically we have not had Sam at all .[/quote]
    Hi Sharon,
    I took the last scene as Sam was only not really there after Dean did the spell, because Gadreal heard the plan to “cover his ears” while Dean told Sam the truth. I didn’t take it as Gadreal has really been Sam the entire S9.[/quote]
    Either way it does not make the situation any better .

    Reply

65. [quote name=”E”][/quoteI hope they don’t gloss it over either! ….quote]
    njspnfan and E, I agree. We’ve been waiting all season for this reveal, and it’s been discussed here A LOT. I thought Sam’s reaction was really good, for being under a time crunch while Gadreal was ‘blinded,’ but alas, we really didn’t get the reveal yet, as that was Gadreal, not Sam! Good twist, but I have to say I did yell “Punch him” right before “Sam” did, because in that moment, all that rage, it seemed to make sense as a good place to park the conversation and pick it up later, once Gadreal was expelled. But then…..

    Reply

66. [quote][/quoteI hope they don’t gloss it over either! ….quote]
    njspnfan and E, I agree. We’ve been waiting all season for this reveal, and it’s been discussed here A LOT. I thought Sam’s reaction was really good, for being under a time crunch while Gadreal was ‘blinded,’ but alas, we really didn’t get the reveal yet, as that was Gadreal, not Sam! Good twist, but I have to say I did yell “Punch him” right before “Sam” did, because in that moment, all that rage, it seemed to make sense as a good place to park the conversation and pick it up later, once Gadreal was expelled. But then…..

    Reply

67. [quote name=”Sharon”]quote]
    Either way it does not make the situation any better .[/quote]

    If Sam was really not Sam after Gadreal possesses him, that would be a disaster, IMO. I liked the twist that Gadreal was “Sam,” even though it meant the real conversation between Dean and Sam and the possession has not happened yet. I was OK with the 1 scene, but all season would have been almost unforgiveable. I have to re-watch to see if there were any clues “Sam” was Gadreal, Jared is so good at playing 10 people at once 🙂

    Reply

68. [quote]quote]
    Either way it does not make the situation any better .[/quote]

    If Sam was really not Sam after Gadreal possesses him, that would be a disaster, IMO. I liked the twist that Gadreal was “Sam,” even though it meant the real conversation between Dean and Sam and the possession has not happened yet. I was OK with the 1 scene, but all season would have been almost unforgiveable. I have to re-watch to see if there were any clues “Sam” was Gadreal, Jared is so good at playing 10 people at once 🙂

    Reply

69. Wow, what an incredible ending to the first part of the season. Just awful and stunning and man, Kevin. I knew he was a goner when he talked about how badly trusting Dean can go. 🙁

    I thought Jared did an amazing job of portraying Gadriel’s emotions, especially keeping them so muted. Fear, anger, reluctance, even grief and sorrow were all there. Very subtle, nuanced performance. It makes it hard to hate Gadriel. Or, er, it did, until he killed Kevin and whomped on Dean while he exited the MoL bunker. So chilling, so mean, so dick-like. Is it evil to say I’m gonna be sad if they totally eject/kill Gadriel in the next ep? Only for Jared’s portrayal of him. Oh, and for Tahmoh. I still want Tahmoh to come back.

    I love that the show added another layer to Supernatural’s version of Heaven. I am constantly amazed at how the showrunners tap into and manipulate biblical history for their own nefarious means. And despite going to Catholic school my entire life, I’m always like “What? I didn’t know that!” So yay for Gadriel or Gadreel (I’ve seen both names) and for all the ways (subtle or otherwise) they’ve set up Dean letting the serpent into Eden. I’m gonna leave that analogy alone, though. Because it mean’s Dean’s Eve, and Sam’s the garden of Eden, and okay, I said I’d leave it alone, didn’t I? 😉

    I agree with Alice that Cas only took the grace because he had his back – literally – against the wall. I don’t think he did it to save himself; he did it for all the right reasons: to help the angels, to fix Heaven and to help Dean and Sam. Best intentions, though… like Dean, will this bite him in the ass? I wonder if someone’s grace is specific to them; if so, and the angel he stole it from was a badass, does that make Cas more of a badass than usual? Is that guy’s grace “evil” in a way Cas isn’t? Probably not, but it would be cool to see Cas struggle with being himself when he doesn’t have “his” grace.

    I was also totally confused (and, frankly, bored) by the angel storyline, and I had been so excited about the possibilities after the premiere, including how Cas would deal with being human. We got exactly three episodes of human Cas (counting the first and the one he lost his virginity in and the one he didn’t go on a date in) before this, and wham bam he’s an angel again? And while I don’t have enough imagination to come up with a storyline for the Angels, it seems like there was a lot of potential for it to be a game changer. Instead it’s exactly what we’ve seen before: angels being dicks.

    Finally, I’m really annoyed that, again, we have several big reveals in one episode that could have been strung out over the course of four or five episodes. I actually didn’t mind the lack of arc in the past few episodes, until I realized how much the show had held back for “Holy Terror.” I think back to Season 2 when John told Dean to watch over Sam, and how the show paced the reveal of that info. Or Season 4 when we learned what was going on with Sam drinking demon blood. Or how we learned about Dean’s time in Hell.

    Pacing is so critical to this show and the last few years it’s been all buggered up. The show runners seem fixated on the shock-and-awe, “keep everything close to the vest and then knock us all out with all the reveals right at the end,” method of storytelling. It’s sloppy and irresponsible, and there’s no reason for it since there’s always a LOT for us to digest. If they weren’t imaginative storytellers, maybe I could buy it. But there’s always so much to tell, and they set it up pretty well, but then the payoff is so fast, it just ends up being frustrating.

    Maybe it’s because of Metatron whispering promises and requesting horrors of a somewhat conflicted angel, but this episode felt so much like “Sacrifice.” Mostly in how I was like – that could have been an episode all by itself, Show! Why are you rushing all of this in the mid-season finale?

    Given how interesting the Sam/Zeke/Gadreel storyline ended up being, especially how awful it ended, I’m disappointed in the show for not pacing it better. Losing Kevin was a big enough bang; they didn’t need to hold the rest of this back so hard.

    So I liked this episode, but I didn’t like how it felt like three episodes in one. Again.

    Reply

70. Wow, what an incredible ending to the first part of the season. Just awful and stunning and man, Kevin. I knew he was a goner when he talked about how badly trusting Dean can go. 🙁

    I thought Jared did an amazing job of portraying Gadriel’s emotions, especially keeping them so muted. Fear, anger, reluctance, even grief and sorrow were all there. Very subtle, nuanced performance. It makes it hard to hate Gadriel. Or, er, it did, until he killed Kevin and whomped on Dean while he exited the MoL bunker. So chilling, so mean, so dick-like. Is it evil to say I’m gonna be sad if they totally eject/kill Gadriel in the next ep? Only for Jared’s portrayal of him. Oh, and for Tahmoh. I still want Tahmoh to come back.

    I love that the show added another layer to Supernatural’s version of Heaven. I am constantly amazed at how the showrunners tap into and manipulate biblical history for their own nefarious means. And despite going to Catholic school my entire life, I’m always like “What? I didn’t know that!” So yay for Gadriel or Gadreel (I’ve seen both names) and for all the ways (subtle or otherwise) they’ve set up Dean letting the serpent into Eden. I’m gonna leave that analogy alone, though. Because it mean’s Dean’s Eve, and Sam’s the garden of Eden, and okay, I said I’d leave it alone, didn’t I? 😉

    I agree with Alice that Cas only took the grace because he had his back – literally – against the wall. I don’t think he did it to save himself; he did it for all the right reasons: to help the angels, to fix Heaven and to help Dean and Sam. Best intentions, though… like Dean, will this bite him in the ass? I wonder if someone’s grace is specific to them; if so, and the angel he stole it from was a badass, does that make Cas more of a badass than usual? Is that guy’s grace “evil” in a way Cas isn’t? Probably not, but it would be cool to see Cas struggle with being himself when he doesn’t have “his” grace.

    I was also totally confused (and, frankly, bored) by the angel storyline, and I had been so excited about the possibilities after the premiere, including how Cas would deal with being human. We got exactly three episodes of human Cas (counting the first and the one he lost his virginity in and the one he didn’t go on a date in) before this, and wham bam he’s an angel again? And while I don’t have enough imagination to come up with a storyline for the Angels, it seems like there was a lot of potential for it to be a game changer. Instead it’s exactly what we’ve seen before: angels being dicks.

    Finally, I’m really annoyed that, again, we have several big reveals in one episode that could have been strung out over the course of four or five episodes. I actually didn’t mind the lack of arc in the past few episodes, until I realized how much the show had held back for “Holy Terror.” I think back to Season 2 when John told Dean to watch over Sam, and how the show paced the reveal of that info. Or Season 4 when we learned what was going on with Sam drinking demon blood. Or how we learned about Dean’s time in Hell.

    Pacing is so critical to this show and the last few years it’s been all buggered up. The show runners seem fixated on the shock-and-awe, “keep everything close to the vest and then knock us all out with all the reveals right at the end,” method of storytelling. It’s sloppy and irresponsible, and there’s no reason for it since there’s always a LOT for us to digest. If they weren’t imaginative storytellers, maybe I could buy it. But there’s always so much to tell, and they set it up pretty well, but then the payoff is so fast, it just ends up being frustrating.

    Maybe it’s because of Metatron whispering promises and requesting horrors of a somewhat conflicted angel, but this episode felt so much like “Sacrifice.” Mostly in how I was like – that could have been an episode all by itself, Show! Why are you rushing all of this in the mid-season finale?

    Given how interesting the Sam/Zeke/Gadreel storyline ended up being, especially how awful it ended, I’m disappointed in the show for not pacing it better. Losing Kevin was a big enough bang; they didn’t need to hold the rest of this back so hard.

    So I liked this episode, but I didn’t like how it felt like three episodes in one. Again.

    Reply

71. I still don’t think I’ve processed the episode. I enjoyed it from start to finish. The episode was a perfect mid-season (although it’s only 39% done), and was packed. I couldn’t ask for more as a fan, the last 5 minutes my jaw was on the floor, and remained there for about 10 minutes after Dean’s tear. SPN hasn’t shocked me like that in a long time, and from these writers!?!? Bravo to all involved, and R.I.P, Kevin Tran, you will be missed.

    Reply

72. I still don’t think I’ve processed the episode. I enjoyed it from start to finish. The episode was a perfect mid-season (although it’s only 39% done), and was packed. I couldn’t ask for more as a fan, the last 5 minutes my jaw was on the floor, and remained there for about 10 minutes after Dean’s tear. SPN hasn’t shocked me like that in a long time, and from these writers!?!? Bravo to all involved, and R.I.P, Kevin Tran, you will be missed.

    Reply

73. [quote name=”kristin”]
    So I liked this episode, but I didn’t like how it felt like three episodes in one. Again.[/quote]
    kristin,
    I agree with you on pacing. My main complaint in S9 is the same as yours. It is a catch-22. I have enjoyed the stand-alone episodes, BUT, we did get far too few Cas-as-human scenes IMO. If Misha is a series regular again, why not use him more? My other question is if thousands of Angels fell to Earth, why couldn’t the stand-alone eps been about Angels that fell? I loved “Heavean Can’t Wait” because the MOTW was actually an Angel-of-the-Week. There should be a lot of chaos on Earth with the Angels, which should have resulted in a lot of cases for the Winchesters to investigate. We could then have also had S9 story movement in these stand-alone eps (Angel wars, 2 Angel teams, how they adjust, or don’t, to Earth, the possibilities are endless!). I thought S9 would focus more on that. And Crowley–he’s been in that chair all season! We’ve had only very minor insight into what the blood did to him in last year’s final. That story seems to have come to a hault, losing any momentum. I’m overall happy with S9, but there seems to have been tweeks here and there that would have made it more engaging as a whole so far.

    Reply

74. [quote]
    So I liked this episode, but I didn’t like how it felt like three episodes in one. Again.[/quote]
    kristin,
    I agree with you on pacing. My main complaint in S9 is the same as yours. It is a catch-22. I have enjoyed the stand-alone episodes, BUT, we did get far too few Cas-as-human scenes IMO. If Misha is a series regular again, why not use him more? My other question is if thousands of Angels fell to Earth, why couldn’t the stand-alone eps been about Angels that fell? I loved “Heavean Can’t Wait” because the MOTW was actually an Angel-of-the-Week. There should be a lot of chaos on Earth with the Angels, which should have resulted in a lot of cases for the Winchesters to investigate. We could then have also had S9 story movement in these stand-alone eps (Angel wars, 2 Angel teams, how they adjust, or don’t, to Earth, the possibilities are endless!). I thought S9 would focus more on that. And Crowley–he’s been in that chair all season! We’ve had only very minor insight into what the blood did to him in last year’s final. That story seems to have come to a hault, losing any momentum. I’m overall happy with S9, but there seems to have been tweeks here and there that would have made it more engaging as a whole so far.

    Reply

75. [quote name=”Nate”]I still don’t think I’ve processed the episode. I enjoyed it from start to finish. The episode was a perfect mid-season (although it’s only 39% done), and was packed. I couldn’t ask for more as a fan, the last 5 minutes my jaw was on the floor, and remained there for about 10 minutes after Dean’s tear. SPN hasn’t shocked me like that in a long time, and from these writers!?!? Bravo to all involved, and R.I.P, Kevin Tran, you will be missed.[/quote]

    Nate – agreed; that really was a shocker, and amazing that a series in it’s 9th season can still surprise us like that. I know the writing team for this episode isn’t everybody’s favorites but they did a helluva job on this one, and deserve a lot of credit.

    What I wasn’t clear on is whether Gadriel was in fact healing Sam; I think he was, but only after he healed himself; also looked as though he was temporarily weakening Sam (tapping in to his soul to heal himself), maybe in case he had to “take over” Sam, as he did in this episode? That leads to an interesting conundrum after the hellatus; what if Sam can’t survive without an angelic pacemaker? How are they going to patch him up?

    Reply

76. [quote]I still don’t think I’ve processed the episode. I enjoyed it from start to finish. The episode was a perfect mid-season (although it’s only 39% done), and was packed. I couldn’t ask for more as a fan, the last 5 minutes my jaw was on the floor, and remained there for about 10 minutes after Dean’s tear. SPN hasn’t shocked me like that in a long time, and from these writers!?!? Bravo to all involved, and R.I.P, Kevin Tran, you will be missed.[/quote]

    Nate – agreed; that really was a shocker, and amazing that a series in it’s 9th season can still surprise us like that. I know the writing team for this episode isn’t everybody’s favorites but they did a helluva job on this one, and deserve a lot of credit.

    What I wasn’t clear on is whether Gadriel was in fact healing Sam; I think he was, but only after he healed himself; also looked as though he was temporarily weakening Sam (tapping in to his soul to heal himself), maybe in case he had to “take over” Sam, as he did in this episode? That leads to an interesting conundrum after the hellatus; what if Sam can’t survive without an angelic pacemaker? How are they going to patch him up?

    Reply

77. [quote name=”alice”][quote]I was under the impression (I admit I don’t know why I think this) that when someone dies with the light shooting out of their eyes, their soul is dead. Zachariah and Uriel didn’t go back to heaven. Alistair didn’t know how to kill Cas in “On the Head of a Pin.” He stated he was sending him back to heaven.

    So, correct me here!! I thought that when the angels were “killing” the demons that way, they weren’t sending them back to hell, they were actually killing them and getting them out of the way.

    So I was extra freaked out for Kevin. I am afraid he is just dead and not going to heaven. (Not that heaven is all that great. It might be better to be dead. Another internal discussion.)

    I know I inferred a lot. And I probably shouldn’t have. It isn’t “canon.” It is just what I think.

    Help me out here! What have y’all been thinking?
    I don’t want Kevin to be dead![/quote]

    love2boys – The rules for human souls differ very much from angels and demons. In a sense, angels and demons don’t have souls. So when they die, they die. Humans do have souls and being a prophet, I’m sure Kevin has ascended in to Heaven. Where hopefully he’ll get to kick some Metatron ass! :)[/quote]

    I’m surprised, I never thought about that before. I thought that demons have souls, but the soul was distorted/burned in Hell by torture till what was left was only black smoke. And that, when cured, the soul is cured, like purified, and could go to Heaven.

    What love2boys said made sense to me. Although I don’t remember the show ever saying that, I got the impression that Angels coul kill, kill souls (human or demon), like the knife or the Colt, or the angel blade.

    But I don’t want that – that will mean that Cas won’t be able to bring Kevin back!

    Reply

78. [quote][quote]I was under the impression (I admit I don’t know why I think this) that when someone dies with the light shooting out of their eyes, their soul is dead. Zachariah and Uriel didn’t go back to heaven. Alistair didn’t know how to kill Cas in “On the Head of a Pin.” He stated he was sending him back to heaven.

    So, correct me here!! I thought that when the angels were “killing” the demons that way, they weren’t sending them back to hell, they were actually killing them and getting them out of the way.

    So I was extra freaked out for Kevin. I am afraid he is just dead and not going to heaven. (Not that heaven is all that great. It might be better to be dead. Another internal discussion.)

    I know I inferred a lot. And I probably shouldn’t have. It isn’t “canon.” It is just what I think.

    Help me out here! What have y’all been thinking?
    I don’t want Kevin to be dead![/quote]

    love2boys – The rules for human souls differ very much from angels and demons. In a sense, angels and demons don’t have souls. So when they die, they die. Humans do have souls and being a prophet, I’m sure Kevin has ascended in to Heaven. Where hopefully he’ll get to kick some Metatron ass! :)[/quote]

    I’m surprised, I never thought about that before. I thought that demons have souls, but the soul was distorted/burned in Hell by torture till what was left was only black smoke. And that, when cured, the soul is cured, like purified, and could go to Heaven.

    What love2boys said made sense to me. Although I don’t remember the show ever saying that, I got the impression that Angels coul kill, kill souls (human or demon), like the knife or the Colt, or the angel blade.

    But I don’t want that – that will mean that Cas won’t be able to bring Kevin back!

    Reply

79. [quote name=”njspnfan”]
    Nate – agreed; that really was a shocker, and amazing that a series in it’s 9th season can still surprise us like that. I know the writing team for this episode isn’t everybody’s favorites but they did a helluva job on this one, and deserve a lot of credit.

    What I wasn’t clear on is whether Gadriel was in fact healing Sam; I think he was, but only after he healed himself; also looked as though he was temporarily weakening Sam (tapping in to his soul to heal himself), maybe in case he had to “take over” Sam? That leads to an interesting conundrum after the hellatus; what if Sam can’t survive without an angelic pacemaker? How are they going to patch him up?[/quote]
    njspnfan, that is the same question I have. What I thought was going to happen in the end is Sam would expell Gadreal as Dean suggested, and Sam would be laying on the floor lifeless….and END CREDITS. But what we got was far more exciting! (I still thought Kevin was going to get it ). I wonder if Cas can heal Sam? That may seem like a cop-out, I wouldn’t want it to be that easy, I’d like to see the show earn it more (Sam’s health that is). The previews indicate another interesting Crowley deal is in our future. We have 5 weeks to think about it 🙂

    Reply

80. [quote]
    Nate – agreed; that really was a shocker, and amazing that a series in it’s 9th season can still surprise us like that. I know the writing team for this episode isn’t everybody’s favorites but they did a helluva job on this one, and deserve a lot of credit.

    What I wasn’t clear on is whether Gadriel was in fact healing Sam; I think he was, but only after he healed himself; also looked as though he was temporarily weakening Sam (tapping in to his soul to heal himself), maybe in case he had to “take over” Sam? That leads to an interesting conundrum after the hellatus; what if Sam can’t survive without an angelic pacemaker? How are they going to patch him up?[/quote]
    njspnfan, that is the same question I have. What I thought was going to happen in the end is Sam would expell Gadreal as Dean suggested, and Sam would be laying on the floor lifeless….and END CREDITS. But what we got was far more exciting! (I still thought Kevin was going to get it ). I wonder if Cas can heal Sam? That may seem like a cop-out, I wouldn’t want it to be that easy, I’d like to see the show earn it more (Sam’s health that is). The previews indicate another interesting Crowley deal is in our future. We have 5 weeks to think about it 🙂

    Reply

81. Borrowing from South Park….

    [b]They killed Kevin!…. You bastards! [/b]

    Reply

82. Borrowing from South Park….

    [b]They killed Kevin!…. You bastards! [/b]

    Reply

83. Well, there are a couple things we know for certain:
    1 – Gadreel lies. Was he lying when he said there is no Sam? If he had sublimated Sam since the first moment, I don’t get why he kept popping out to warn Dean not to tell Sam. If he were acting as Sam all along, then why couldn’t he act like Sam knowing about the possession? Why make sure that Dean kept the secret, unless the real Sam could have done something about it somehow.
    2 – Castiel is an angel again. Angels can bring people back from the dead. I see hope for Kevin still. Mama Tran may still be out there, and if she is, I would hate to be Gadreel right about now.

    Reply

84. Well, there are a couple things we know for certain:
    1 – Gadreel lies. Was he lying when he said there is no Sam? If he had sublimated Sam since the first moment, I don’t get why he kept popping out to warn Dean not to tell Sam. If he were acting as Sam all along, then why couldn’t he act like Sam knowing about the possession? Why make sure that Dean kept the secret, unless the real Sam could have done something about it somehow.
    2 – Castiel is an angel again. Angels can bring people back from the dead. I see hope for Kevin still. Mama Tran may still be out there, and if she is, I would hate to be Gadreel right about now.

    Reply

85. I agree with most of this discussion about pacing. Both season 8 and now season 9 have felt so poorly paced, imo.
    It’s been so much.. blah, blah, HOLY SHIT, blah blah blah…EEEK! If the angels are supposed to be the big bad this year, they haven’t been developed any better than the Leviathan were. (And at least they had James Patrick Stuart!!). I don’t care about the angel wars, simply because there hasn’t been anything there to care about. Other than the devastating human death count, who cares?!

    Give me a Crowley/Abaddon face off! There’s the big bads I’d like to see more of. Lose the angels!

    Also – I think Sam has been “there” up until the big confrontation with Gad, but I do think he’s been somewhat manipulated (feeling happy? healthy? kept from figuring it out?)… So while Sam has been present, he’s not been truly “Sam”. Does that make sense?

    Reply

86. I agree with most of this discussion about pacing. Both season 8 and now season 9 have felt so poorly paced, imo.
    It’s been so much.. blah, blah, HOLY SHIT, blah blah blah…EEEK! If the angels are supposed to be the big bad this year, they haven’t been developed any better than the Leviathan were. (And at least they had James Patrick Stuart!!). I don’t care about the angel wars, simply because there hasn’t been anything there to care about. Other than the devastating human death count, who cares?!

    Give me a Crowley/Abaddon face off! There’s the big bads I’d like to see more of. Lose the angels!

    Also – I think Sam has been “there” up until the big confrontation with Gad, but I do think he’s been somewhat manipulated (feeling happy? healthy? kept from figuring it out?)… So while Sam has been present, he’s not been truly “Sam”. Does that make sense?

    Reply

87. [quote name=”njspnfan”]Borrowing from South Park….

    [b]They killed Kevin!…. You bastards! [/b][/quote]

    lol! This was going through my mind ALL day yesterday!

    Reply

88. [quote]Borrowing from South Park….

    [b]They killed Kevin!…. You bastards! [/b][/quote]

    lol! This was going through my mind ALL day yesterday!

    Reply

89. My one negative and then the rest are positives:

    On a show about two brothers Carver has shown how you can do it with only one brother actually IN the show. I’m gutted.. Gutted that Sam has been erased…but yet I expected it to happen. these writers have lost all interest in Sam Winchester as a person.

    Postives: Angel glee club….. all i could think was NUNS OF ANARCHY. get it? NUNS of anarchy. Made me giggle every time they showed up.

    It was surprisingly well written

    Can;t care kevin is dead because he has a better chance of returning then Sam does. Everyone except John comes back from the dead. Can you even come back from bveing erased? I’m counting on Kevin coming back. SN has emotionally emptied me about death on this show.

    Cas’ torture. Can NOT handle torture. So i ff’d it until all of a sudden he was drinking grace through a sippy cup. Wait..what? back up and watch. Ick torture. Oh Cas….what you felt you needed to do…pretty sure Grace stealing in a very level of dark.

    gadriel…felt bad for him. metranon will not suffer this fool angel. Poor guy. I really hope Sam finds a way to help and forgive Gadriel. That’d be awesome if Sam refuses to let gadriel leave as a way tgo save him…because he simply understands his mindset. Though…there is the kevin thing. Killing Kevin is not ok…but Gadriel coujld always bring him back. Or Cas can. So its copecetic.

    Is it odd I’d rather see Sam forgive Gadriel over Dean? It simply means nothing since Sam wont be allowed to be angry at Dean…the writers will gloss of it all…and Dean will suffer no consequences for his descions. Cas and Corwly will fix everything as it never happened so it all will be pointless.

    All i want if Sam ever comes back is some free will. I’d like that for Sam for Christmas. Free WIll.

    Reply

90. My one negative and then the rest are positives:

    On a show about two brothers Carver has shown how you can do it with only one brother actually IN the show. I’m gutted.. Gutted that Sam has been erased…but yet I expected it to happen. these writers have lost all interest in Sam Winchester as a person.

    Postives: Angel glee club….. all i could think was NUNS OF ANARCHY. get it? NUNS of anarchy. Made me giggle every time they showed up.

    It was surprisingly well written

    Can;t care kevin is dead because he has a better chance of returning then Sam does. Everyone except John comes back from the dead. Can you even come back from bveing erased? I’m counting on Kevin coming back. SN has emotionally emptied me about death on this show.

    Cas’ torture. Can NOT handle torture. So i ff’d it until all of a sudden he was drinking grace through a sippy cup. Wait..what? back up and watch. Ick torture. Oh Cas….what you felt you needed to do…pretty sure Grace stealing in a very level of dark.

    gadriel…felt bad for him. metranon will not suffer this fool angel. Poor guy. I really hope Sam finds a way to help and forgive Gadriel. That’d be awesome if Sam refuses to let gadriel leave as a way tgo save him…because he simply understands his mindset. Though…there is the kevin thing. Killing Kevin is not ok…but Gadriel coujld always bring him back. Or Cas can. So its copecetic.

    Is it odd I’d rather see Sam forgive Gadriel over Dean? It simply means nothing since Sam wont be allowed to be angry at Dean…the writers will gloss of it all…and Dean will suffer no consequences for his descions. Cas and Corwly will fix everything as it never happened so it all will be pointless.

    All i want if Sam ever comes back is some free will. I’d like that for Sam for Christmas. Free WIll.

    Reply

91. @24 E: I hear you! I had my suspicions too that we had no way of knowing if that Angel was actually Ezekiel. My first clue was him kicking Cas out of the bunker.

    But last night’s epi.
    WOW! Just wow!

    I’m still processing it. I was a toally nervous wreck an hour before the show even started and I was on teneterhooks from minute one because I knew there was going to be sme next-level s**t happening in it.

    I think the Angel War is intriguing. I like Malachi but I expect him to lose to Bart.

    And am I the only one who can see that Metatron totally lied and manipulated Gadriel into doing his bidding. Metatron is a lying sneaky-snake and his tone and body language was exactly what we saw when he was manipulating Cas. Metatron is going to betray Gadriel too. The whole time Metatron was talking to him I kept yelling, “Noooo! Don’t trust him!”, at my TV.Gadriel is going to get burned by him. I
    know it.

    Interesting to note that Gadriel is supposedly the father of Cain and Abel. Cain ,who will be showing up in the episode “First Born” is also the leader of the Knights of Hell.He made Abaddon and has a disgraced Angel for a father, although I don’t know if the show will keep that relationship intact.

    I totally didn’t see that Cas thing coming. I wouldn’t actually call his stealing the other angel’s grace a retcon as it was never established that that COULD NOT be done. It’s very confusing to the mythology but I don’t think that’s a retcon.

    I’m amazed that this particular team of writers managed to pull this off without ticking me off too much. And no, I’m not going to miss Kev much as I was never a huge fan of his. I knew he was going to die as soon as Dean said he wouldn’t let anything happen to him. And I knew he was te death Metatron was going to ask for.

    WOW! this show…

    And hey the review was great and actually pretty funny. Thanx!

    Reply

92. @24 E: I hear you! I had my suspicions too that we had no way of knowing if that Angel was actually Ezekiel. My first clue was him kicking Cas out of the bunker.

    But last night’s epi.
    WOW! Just wow!

    I’m still processing it. I was a toally nervous wreck an hour before the show even started and I was on teneterhooks from minute one because I knew there was going to be sme next-level s**t happening in it.

    I think the Angel War is intriguing. I like Malachi but I expect him to lose to Bart.

    And am I the only one who can see that Metatron totally lied and manipulated Gadriel into doing his bidding. Metatron is a lying sneaky-snake and his tone and body language was exactly what we saw when he was manipulating Cas. Metatron is going to betray Gadriel too. The whole time Metatron was talking to him I kept yelling, “Noooo! Don’t trust him!”, at my TV.Gadriel is going to get burned by him. I
    know it.

    Interesting to note that Gadriel is supposedly the father of Cain and Abel. Cain ,who will be showing up in the episode “First Born” is also the leader of the Knights of Hell.He made Abaddon and has a disgraced Angel for a father, although I don’t know if the show will keep that relationship intact.

    I totally didn’t see that Cas thing coming. I wouldn’t actually call his stealing the other angel’s grace a retcon as it was never established that that COULD NOT be done. It’s very confusing to the mythology but I don’t think that’s a retcon.

    I’m amazed that this particular team of writers managed to pull this off without ticking me off too much. And no, I’m not going to miss Kev much as I was never a huge fan of his. I knew he was going to die as soon as Dean said he wouldn’t let anything happen to him. And I knew he was te death Metatron was going to ask for.

    WOW! this show…

    And hey the review was great and actually pretty funny. Thanx!

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93. I think Gadriel was Pretending to be Sam from the time he stepped back into the bunker. My first clue that Dean hadn’t been really talking to Sam at in the storage room was when gadriel stood in the doorway staring at Kevin. The body language changed but there was no eye-flash. indicating that he’s been gadriel the entire time of his and Dean’s convo.

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94. I think Gadriel was Pretending to be Sam from the time he stepped back into the bunker. My first clue that Dean hadn’t been really talking to Sam at in the storage room was when gadriel stood in the doorway staring at Kevin. The body language changed but there was no eye-flash. indicating that he’s been gadriel the entire time of his and Dean’s convo.

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95. I really liked the episode (I’m betting on heavy script editing by Carver, for obvious reasons).

    The episode clearly set up the mytharc….finally. Looks like it’s angel wars starring Metatron/Zadreel versus Bartholomew/Malachi and Cas versus all angels. I’m left wondering where the Winchesters fit into the war. I’m not liking how the show is promoting Cas so heavily, but I’m glad he’s back to being an angel, as I found the bumbling human story boring.

    I find it curious that all and every angel is a dick. Without a single sympathetic angel character to invest in. I like the angel war, but without anyone to root for, I don’t really care how it goes or who comes out on top. I am hoping that the rehabilitate Zadreel, as I’d like to see Tahmoh Pennikett again, but not if he’s a dumbed down Metatron minion. Seriously, how much more stupid can angels get? If Zadreel remains a dummy, I hope Dean ganks him in the very next episode. And, for the record, where is Abaddon?

    Sam remains MIA. Dean is the screw-up for the season and set up the mytharc. Now he must clean up his mess, and it is quite the mess. I hope the Winchesters have an important role to play in it during the second half and that their story isn’t just angst and handwringing.

    I felt no emotional loss with Kevin dying, because death has no meaning in this show. I fully expect to see the character again in some form or the other, just as we see Bobby at least once every season. I certainly don’t expect another prophet to be introduced, even though canon says that should happen. I do think Kevin’s death had meaning and purpose, in that I expect that event guides Dean’s character for the rest of the season.

    For the record, I’m not even going to think about the grace thing. Talk about confusing. God, that one raises so many questions in my mind. It’s best just to let it go.

    I thought it was an excellent episode, but I’m not sure I like the show making Dean the screw-up and I’m sure hoping that Sam isn’t an angel for much longer. I want the Winchesters to be the heroes of the season.

    ETA: Forgot to mention that I share your nightly curses to the writers over Rufus, Bookdal. I’m still ticked off about that one!

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96. I really liked the episode (I’m betting on heavy script editing by Carver, for obvious reasons).

    The episode clearly set up the mytharc….finally. Looks like it’s angel wars starring Metatron/Zadreel versus Bartholomew/Malachi and Cas versus all angels. I’m left wondering where the Winchesters fit into the war. I’m not liking how the show is promoting Cas so heavily, but I’m glad he’s back to being an angel, as I found the bumbling human story boring.

    I find it curious that all and every angel is a dick. Without a single sympathetic angel character to invest in. I like the angel war, but without anyone to root for, I don’t really care how it goes or who comes out on top. I am hoping that the rehabilitate Zadreel, as I’d like to see Tahmoh Pennikett again, but not if he’s a dumbed down Metatron minion. Seriously, how much more stupid can angels get? If Zadreel remains a dummy, I hope Dean ganks him in the very next episode. And, for the record, where is Abaddon?

    Sam remains MIA. Dean is the screw-up for the season and set up the mytharc. Now he must clean up his mess, and it is quite the mess. I hope the Winchesters have an important role to play in it during the second half and that their story isn’t just angst and handwringing.

    I felt no emotional loss with Kevin dying, because death has no meaning in this show. I fully expect to see the character again in some form or the other, just as we see Bobby at least once every season. I certainly don’t expect another prophet to be introduced, even though canon says that should happen. I do think Kevin’s death had meaning and purpose, in that I expect that event guides Dean’s character for the rest of the season.

    For the record, I’m not even going to think about the grace thing. Talk about confusing. God, that one raises so many questions in my mind. It’s best just to let it go.

    I thought it was an excellent episode, but I’m not sure I like the show making Dean the screw-up and I’m sure hoping that Sam isn’t an angel for much longer. I want the Winchesters to be the heroes of the season.

    ETA: Forgot to mention that I share your nightly curses to the writers over Rufus, Bookdal. I’m still ticked off about that one!

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97. Dear Supernatural writers….YOU BASTARDS! *wimpers* bastards! On another note, the preview looks like it’s gonna get gooder….Next YEAR! Bastards!

    Honestly, I didn’t feel like it had always been Gadreel, only the last part in the kitchen & storeroom felt like Gad/notSam.

    Kevin started to grow on me but maybe this will pave the way for him and Bobby to return…I miss Bobby and I would love for Dean to get some ” advise” from him!

    Oh….poor Sam! Bastards!

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98. Dear Supernatural writers….YOU BASTARDS! *wimpers* bastards! On another note, the preview looks like it’s gonna get gooder….Next YEAR! Bastards!

    Honestly, I didn’t feel like it had always been Gadreel, only the last part in the kitchen & storeroom felt like Gad/notSam.

    Kevin started to grow on me but maybe this will pave the way for him and Bobby to return…I miss Bobby and I would love for Dean to get some ” advise” from him!

    Oh….poor Sam! Bastards!

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99. .

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100. .

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101. #40 Ale, that is what I thought about demons too. That they WERE souls, just burnt, and can be “cured.” But whether or not they can be cured, they are burnt souls. They can be sent back to hell, or killed. The souls. The souls can be sent back to hell or killed. So, in SPN, I am afraid it may be reasonable? to assume that human souls can be sent up or down or killed. It might be an option. ???

     Oh well, such a small point when the rest of the episode was so big. Sorry, folks! It has been nagging at me since the scene at the Biggerson’s with all the dead people where the angels made Cas stop.

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102. #40 Ale, that is what I thought about demons too. That they WERE souls, just burnt, and can be “cured.” But whether or not they can be cured, they are burnt souls. They can be sent back to hell, or killed. The souls. The souls can be sent back to hell or killed. So, in SPN, I am afraid it may be reasonable? to assume that human souls can be sent up or down or killed. It might be an option. ???

     Oh well, such a small point when the rest of the episode was so big. Sorry, folks! It has been nagging at me since the scene at the Biggerson’s with all the dead people where the angels made Cas stop.

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103. I agree that Sam’s character has just about disappeared and Dean’s character has been made into the the big bad. Stand close to Dean for very long and you’re dead or worse. Although I wasn’t that invested in Kevin.

     Cas becoming an angel again was a surprise and I thought they did that in a clever way. The Metatron story is interesting and maybe if they are able to abstract Gadriel from Sam they can somehow have Sam go undercover to fool Metatron.

     The theme of the episode seemed to be “I did what I had to do” but I really think we need to stop having Dean saving Sam at all costs. Been there done that and it’s getting old for me. I feel like Dean’s character has now been tarnished permanently and nothing he does from here on will make it alright.

     The episode furthered the myth arc but didn’t really leave me on the edge of my seat since it’s playing out pretty much how it looked like it would from the first episode when Sam was possessed.

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104. I agree that Sam’s character has just about disappeared and Dean’s character has been made into the the big bad. Stand close to Dean for very long and you’re dead or worse. Although I wasn’t that invested in Kevin.

     Cas becoming an angel again was a surprise and I thought they did that in a clever way. The Metatron story is interesting and maybe if they are able to abstract Gadriel from Sam they can somehow have Sam go undercover to fool Metatron.

     The theme of the episode seemed to be “I did what I had to do” but I really think we need to stop having Dean saving Sam at all costs. Been there done that and it’s getting old for me. I feel like Dean’s character has now been tarnished permanently and nothing he does from here on will make it alright.

     The episode furthered the myth arc but didn’t really leave me on the edge of my seat since it’s playing out pretty much how it looked like it would from the first episode when Sam was possessed.

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105. Re: Was it Sam or Gadreel? I’m thinking that what we have been shown throughout the season was “honest”. Sam driving the bus while Zeke/Gadreel rested and healed in the background, popping out occasionally. But I don’t think that Sam was Sam all the way until he overheard Keving and Dean talking. I am thinking that Gadreel might have taken over after Metatron met with him the first time. Kevin did say he had been leaving alot.

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106. Re: Was it Sam or Gadreel? I’m thinking that what we have been shown throughout the season was “honest”. Sam driving the bus while Zeke/Gadreel rested and healed in the background, popping out occasionally. But I don’t think that Sam was Sam all the way until he overheard Keving and Dean talking. I am thinking that Gadreel might have taken over after Metatron met with him the first time. Kevin did say he had been leaving alot.

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107. i’ll probably get stoned for this, but i gotta admit, i like metatron. he’s so quirky, seemingly doing what’s best for heaven, but then again is he? i mean heaven has been in a state of disarray and chaos for quite some time. the higher ups saw fit to start the apocalypse, for heaven’s sake. it’s total anarchy and the angels are constantly in a state of upheavel. metatron is basically trying to put heaven back to it’s original setting. it’s apparent that heaven needs their father, and since he’s left the building, someone has to take over the kingdom of heaven. the angels need to be ruled. they need order. they need a sense of purpose again. in all honesty, metatron is the only angel who seems to want heaven restored to it’s former glory. most of the other angels seem to want power for themselves. maybe metatron wants that too? he did seem ready to claim the spot as his father’s replacement. heir to the throne so to speak. isn’t that what heaven needs? throughout history leaders both good and bad have claimed their place by fighting for it. is metatron’s version of heaven really a bad thing for the angels? i’m not sure it is. could metatron be heaven’s salvation? it’s just as possible for the answer to be yes as it is to be no.
     metatron’s method? well he does seem to go to angels who need redemption, but isn’t that better than going to angels who are in it just for the power? who don’t care about heaven at all? metatron’s methods are sneaky but the angels he chooses are basically angels who have made mistakes and want to redeem themselves in the eyes of heaven. i put that in the plus column, but that’s just me.
     as for kevin, well i have this theory. seems to me that perhaps when a prophet’s job/purpose is done, he/she is rewarded with paradise, heaven. chuck served his purpose by publishing the winchester gospel. then as far as we all know, chuck totally disappears. i always assumed chuck died. he did his job, he played his part in helping to stop the apocalypse and he was thus rewarded by going to heaven. kevin translated the demon tablet. his job was in essence done. he played his part and now as a reward he’s sent to heaven. we, the one’s who lose our loved ones, focus on our loss and not so much heaven’s gain. we liked kevin, we’ll miss kevin. metatron had him killed so he’s evil. but did metatron only do what he was supposed to do? as a prophet who completed his mission, was he now supposed to move on.? cas said you never stop being a prophet. so maybe the life span of a prophet depends on what his job is and when it’s finished. in the eyes of heaven, metatron was rewarding kevin for a job well done and letting him have peace. as we saw in s4, in dark side of the moon, heaven isn’t such a bad place to be. kevin may actually find happiness there. i think he will. like i stated in my other post, there was really no need to kill kevin because metatron got sam/gad to just walk out with the tablets. kevin was never a threat. so my guess is that perhaps it wasn’t about punishing kevin, but rewarding him. it seems based on both chuck and kevin, life as a prophet isn’t so great.
     anyway, that’s my take on it. so while it was sad to see kevin go, i can’t help but wonder if he might not have been sent to heaven for a reason other than the one that’s being assumed.
     then again if it turns out that metatron isn’t the right choice to take charge in heaven, i’m sure the boys will find a way to defeat him. maybe in the end, God will make his return, or maybe cas will take over the heavenly kingdom.

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108. i’ll probably get stoned for this, but i gotta admit, i like metatron. he’s so quirky, seemingly doing what’s best for heaven, but then again is he? i mean heaven has been in a state of disarray and chaos for quite some time. the higher ups saw fit to start the apocalypse, for heaven’s sake. it’s total anarchy and the angels are constantly in a state of upheavel. metatron is basically trying to put heaven back to it’s original setting. it’s apparent that heaven needs their father, and since he’s left the building, someone has to take over the kingdom of heaven. the angels need to be ruled. they need order. they need a sense of purpose again. in all honesty, metatron is the only angel who seems to want heaven restored to it’s former glory. most of the other angels seem to want power for themselves. maybe metatron wants that too? he did seem ready to claim the spot as his father’s replacement. heir to the throne so to speak. isn’t that what heaven needs? throughout history leaders both good and bad have claimed their place by fighting for it. is metatron’s version of heaven really a bad thing for the angels? i’m not sure it is. could metatron be heaven’s salvation? it’s just as possible for the answer to be yes as it is to be no.
     metatron’s method? well he does seem to go to angels who need redemption, but isn’t that better than going to angels who are in it just for the power? who don’t care about heaven at all? metatron’s methods are sneaky but the angels he chooses are basically angels who have made mistakes and want to redeem themselves in the eyes of heaven. i put that in the plus column, but that’s just me.
     as for kevin, well i have this theory. seems to me that perhaps when a prophet’s job/purpose is done, he/she is rewarded with paradise, heaven. chuck served his purpose by publishing the winchester gospel. then as far as we all know, chuck totally disappears. i always assumed chuck died. he did his job, he played his part in helping to stop the apocalypse and he was thus rewarded by going to heaven. kevin translated the demon tablet. his job was in essence done. he played his part and now as a reward he’s sent to heaven. we, the one’s who lose our loved ones, focus on our loss and not so much heaven’s gain. we liked kevin, we’ll miss kevin. metatron had him killed so he’s evil. but did metatron only do what he was supposed to do? as a prophet who completed his mission, was he now supposed to move on.? cas said you never stop being a prophet. so maybe the life span of a prophet depends on what his job is and when it’s finished. in the eyes of heaven, metatron was rewarding kevin for a job well done and letting him have peace. as we saw in s4, in dark side of the moon, heaven isn’t such a bad place to be. kevin may actually find happiness there. i think he will. like i stated in my other post, there was really no need to kill kevin because metatron got sam/gad to just walk out with the tablets. kevin was never a threat. so my guess is that perhaps it wasn’t about punishing kevin, but rewarding him. it seems based on both chuck and kevin, life as a prophet isn’t so great.
     anyway, that’s my take on it. so while it was sad to see kevin go, i can’t help but wonder if he might not have been sent to heaven for a reason other than the one that’s being assumed.
     then again if it turns out that metatron isn’t the right choice to take charge in heaven, i’m sure the boys will find a way to defeat him. maybe in the end, God will make his return, or maybe cas will take over the heavenly kingdom.

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109. @55: I’m going to have to disagree on some of that.

     It’s true that all of the angels we’ve met are total d**ks but I think Metatron is doing what’s right for Metatron. Not Heaven. And he’s willing to manipulate angels who wish to be redeemed into doing his dirty deeds for him.

     I think Gadriel’s situation is going to play out the same way Cas’ situation did. I think Metatron used him to get the tablets and have the prophet killed as he wasn’t going to do it himself.

     He played Gadriel. He said all the things he needed to say to him to get Gadriel to do what HE wants. Notice how when Gadriel talks about how Metatron could be called God. He puts on this fake self-effacing attitude like “Oh, I couldn’t possibly be called that.” He kept emphasizing to Gadriel how he used to be God’s favorite and how he could put Gadriel back on track in Heaven with him.

     Do you seriously believe that he came down from Heaven because he’s lonely,like he said.? Nope. He’s got some other end-game in mind and I trust Metatron about as far as I can toss his name. The guy is a master-player. He duped Cas out of his grace like a professional con-man. And now he’s run a con on Zeke. How much do you wanna bet that Gadriel never sets foot in Heaven again?

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110. @55: I’m going to have to disagree on some of that.

     It’s true that all of the angels we’ve met are total d**ks but I think Metatron is doing what’s right for Metatron. Not Heaven. And he’s willing to manipulate angels who wish to be redeemed into doing his dirty deeds for him.

     I think Gadriel’s situation is going to play out the same way Cas’ situation did. I think Metatron used him to get the tablets and have the prophet killed as he wasn’t going to do it himself.

     He played Gadriel. He said all the things he needed to say to him to get Gadriel to do what HE wants. Notice how when Gadriel talks about how Metatron could be called God. He puts on this fake self-effacing attitude like “Oh, I couldn’t possibly be called that.” He kept emphasizing to Gadriel how he used to be God’s favorite and how he could put Gadriel back on track in Heaven with him.

     Do you seriously believe that he came down from Heaven because he’s lonely,like he said.? Nope. He’s got some other end-game in mind and I trust Metatron about as far as I can toss his name. The guy is a master-player. He duped Cas out of his grace like a professional con-man. And now he’s run a con on Zeke. How much do you wanna bet that Gadriel never sets foot in Heaven again?

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111. On the other hand ,you do have to admire Metatron’s ability to sling c**p.

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112. On the other hand ,you do have to admire Metatron’s ability to sling c**p.

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113. you know, i just read this somewhere and it occurred to me that this could actually be the case. metatron wrote the tablets so he knows alot, alot of things he most likely shouldn’t know.
     if it’s true and metatron is just yet another angel who wants to play at God for his own sake instead of for the good of heaven and the angels….
     do you think it’s possible, as someone noted, that the killing of a prophet could be the first step in getting something metatron wants done? i mean kevin wasn’t really a threat and all prophets do get replaced….so maybe metatron is trying to do something that only a spell can accomplish….and maybe, like he did with cas, he’s using gadriel to do his bidding. i do think gadriel is being played same as cas…..what could metatron want though? do you think he wants to open the cage? do you think there’s a spell that can do it? or maybe metatron want’s something else. i still think that prophets, once they accomplish their mission, die and are rewarded with heaven, but maybe kevin wasn’t done yet. i’m not saying metatron necessarily feared kevin would figure something out, because all he had to do was take the tablets away, no one had to die…but if killing a prophet is part of a spell….rut roh 😮

     i do admit that metatron is no fool and i give him props for that…while all the other angels are violently battling it out to ram through the front door, metatron is quietly, and without the extreme body count, sneaking through the back door.

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114. you know, i just read this somewhere and it occurred to me that this could actually be the case. metatron wrote the tablets so he knows alot, alot of things he most likely shouldn’t know.
     if it’s true and metatron is just yet another angel who wants to play at God for his own sake instead of for the good of heaven and the angels….
     do you think it’s possible, as someone noted, that the killing of a prophet could be the first step in getting something metatron wants done? i mean kevin wasn’t really a threat and all prophets do get replaced….so maybe metatron is trying to do something that only a spell can accomplish….and maybe, like he did with cas, he’s using gadriel to do his bidding. i do think gadriel is being played same as cas…..what could metatron want though? do you think he wants to open the cage? do you think there’s a spell that can do it? or maybe metatron want’s something else. i still think that prophets, once they accomplish their mission, die and are rewarded with heaven, but maybe kevin wasn’t done yet. i’m not saying metatron necessarily feared kevin would figure something out, because all he had to do was take the tablets away, no one had to die…but if killing a prophet is part of a spell….rut roh 😮

     i do admit that metatron is no fool and i give him props for that…while all the other angels are violently battling it out to ram through the front door, metatron is quietly, and without the extreme body count, sneaking through the back door.

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115. Remember though: the other potential prophets are know as .Crowley kidnapped them all in season 8.

     Also Metatron said that Kevin was the first of the names on his list. He could have a list of the potential prophets and be trying to get rid of them (although if they keep being born, where would that stop? Or killing Kevin could be a delaying tactic for some other activity.)

     It doesn’t seem lke Dean is on that list but then Metatron knows nothing about the Winchesters (and is certainly underestimating their potential to upset the natural order.)

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116. Remember though: the other potential prophets are know as .Crowley kidnapped them all in season 8.

     Also Metatron said that Kevin was the first of the names on his list. He could have a list of the potential prophets and be trying to get rid of them (although if they keep being born, where would that stop? Or killing Kevin could be a delaying tactic for some other activity.)

     It doesn’t seem lke Dean is on that list but then Metatron knows nothing about the Winchesters (and is certainly underestimating their potential to upset the natural order.)

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117. I agree. I think killing Kevin has something to do with another of Metatron’s spells. He probably needs another spell to get some of the angels back in heaven and killing a prophet was probably one step. At least we know why the angel in ep. 1 didn’t recognize Gadriel. He’s been in lock down forever.

     Metatron looks so harmless and unassuming he has a perfect disguise for his purposes. In the one scene with Gadriel he looks so much shorter in height if he had a pointy hat he could be a garden knome. I don’t think he’s going to be easily taken care of though.

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118. I agree. I think killing Kevin has something to do with another of Metatron’s spells. He probably needs another spell to get some of the angels back in heaven and killing a prophet was probably one step. At least we know why the angel in ep. 1 didn’t recognize Gadriel. He’s been in lock down forever.

     Metatron looks so harmless and unassuming he has a perfect disguise for his purposes. In the one scene with Gadriel he looks so much shorter in height if he had a pointy hat he could be a garden knome. I don’t think he’s going to be easily taken care of though.

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119. [quote name=”njspnfan”]Borrowing from South Park….

     They killed Kevin!…. You bastards! [/quote]
     While crying during Kevin’s death scene, that’s exactly what I thought. How messed up am I? 🙂

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120. [quote]Borrowing from South Park….

     They killed Kevin!…. You bastards! [/quote]
     While crying during Kevin’s death scene, that’s exactly what I thought. How messed up am I? 🙂

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121. I agree with a lot of you. For me – and I might be wrong – the switch between Sam and Gad for us the audience is when Sam’s eyes flash blue, so that’s why I think that Sam was Sam until the last scene beginning with him putting the beer in the fridge. Somebody has already commented the fact that Sam didn’t say anything when Dean told him it’d been a long beer run as an indication that at that point Sam was Gad, and I agree. Consider the fact that the ep begins with Sam noticing the difference in miles (100 to 50 miles in like 12 seconds). Why wouldn’t real Sam say anything to Dean about the long beer run?

     Am I the only one who can’t forget the ‘There is no more Sam” line? What does Gad mean? Sam’s on the backseat now but still there? or Sam’s gone gone? I remember Robbie Thompson twitting about Jimmy being gone from Castiel but not being specific about the reasons why. I think he said something like ‘why? reasons…’ I wonder if he had this ep in mind….I don’t know what the ‘rules’ are for how long the souls of the vessels can stay in the body until it’s only the angel in the vessel…has the show ever talked about this? I’m not sure but I don’t think so. I really do hope that it’s only Sam in the backseat…
     so one more thing. If Sam’s in the backseat and Dean’s going to have Crowley bring him back then will Sam be OK? I mean 9.08 put Sam as someone who’s all “duck tape and safety pins inside.” Will he be Ok? I do hope so. As many of you have commented here, I’d like to see Sam – and only Sam – back for a change.

     I agree with Alice and think this was a great job by Ross-Leming and Buckner. It had everything a mid-season finale ep should have IMHO.

     Final words: nooooo!!! Kevin!!!!!!!!

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122. I agree with a lot of you. For me – and I might be wrong – the switch between Sam and Gad for us the audience is when Sam’s eyes flash blue, so that’s why I think that Sam was Sam until the last scene beginning with him putting the beer in the fridge. Somebody has already commented the fact that Sam didn’t say anything when Dean told him it’d been a long beer run as an indication that at that point Sam was Gad, and I agree. Consider the fact that the ep begins with Sam noticing the difference in miles (100 to 50 miles in like 12 seconds). Why wouldn’t real Sam say anything to Dean about the long beer run?

     Am I the only one who can’t forget the ‘There is no more Sam” line? What does Gad mean? Sam’s on the backseat now but still there? or Sam’s gone gone? I remember Robbie Thompson twitting about Jimmy being gone from Castiel but not being specific about the reasons why. I think he said something like ‘why? reasons…’ I wonder if he had this ep in mind….I don’t know what the ‘rules’ are for how long the souls of the vessels can stay in the body until it’s only the angel in the vessel…has the show ever talked about this? I’m not sure but I don’t think so. I really do hope that it’s only Sam in the backseat…
     so one more thing. If Sam’s in the backseat and Dean’s going to have Crowley bring him back then will Sam be OK? I mean 9.08 put Sam as someone who’s all “duck tape and safety pins inside.” Will he be Ok? I do hope so. As many of you have commented here, I’d like to see Sam – and only Sam – back for a change.

     I agree with Alice and think this was a great job by Ross-Leming and Buckner. It had everything a mid-season finale ep should have IMHO.

     Final words: nooooo!!! Kevin!!!!!!!!

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123. Metatron: I know who you really are. And it isn’t Ezekiel.

     Well, no, he wasn’t, but he wasn’t the Tooth fairy or Santa Claus either to pick two random other creatures.

     How did Metatron know that it was supposed to be Ezekiel in there?

     Does Metatron work for the NSA?

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124. Metatron: I know who you really are. And it isn’t Ezekiel.

     Well, no, he wasn’t, but he wasn’t the Tooth fairy or Santa Claus either to pick two random other creatures.

     How did Metatron know that it was supposed to be Ezekiel in there?

     Does Metatron work for the NSA?

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125. [quote name=”eilf”]Metatron: I know who you really are. And it isn’t Ezekiel.

     Well, no, he wasn’t, but he wasn’t the Tooth fairy or Santa Claus either to pick two random other creatures.

     How did Metatron know that it was supposed to be Ezekiel in there?

     Does Metatron work for the NSA?[/quote]
     more like the cia…ten to a donut metatron has been doing a bit of spying.

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126. [quote]Metatron: I know who you really are. And it isn’t Ezekiel.

     Well, no, he wasn’t, but he wasn’t the Tooth fairy or Santa Claus either to pick two random other creatures.

     How did Metatron know that it was supposed to be Ezekiel in there?

     Does Metatron work for the NSA?[/quote]
     more like the cia…ten to a donut metatron has been doing a bit of spying.

     Reply

127. [quote name=”nappi815″][quote name=”eilf”]Metatron: I know who you really are. And it isn’t Ezekiel.

     Well, no, he wasn’t, but he wasn’t the Tooth fairy or Santa Claus either to pick two random other creatures.

     How did Metatron know that it was supposed to be Ezekiel in there?

     Does Metatron work for the NSA?[/quote]
     more like the cia…ten to a donut metatron has been doing a bit of spying.[/quote]

     Good point eilf! Who knew besides Dean and not-Ezekiel. How do you spell that angels name anyway?? I have seen at least 3 spellings! 😀

     Reply

128. [quote][quote]Metatron: I know who you really are. And it isn’t Ezekiel.

     Well, no, he wasn’t, but he wasn’t the Tooth fairy or Santa Claus either to pick two random other creatures.

     How did Metatron know that it was supposed to be Ezekiel in there?

     Does Metatron work for the NSA?[/quote]
     more like the cia…ten to a donut metatron has been doing a bit of spying.[/quote]

     Good point eilf! Who knew besides Dean and not-Ezekiel. How do you spell that angels name anyway?? I have seen at least 3 spellings! 😀

     Reply

129. [quote name=”eilf”]Metatron: I know who you really are. And it isn’t Ezekiel.

     Well, no, he wasn’t, but he wasn’t the Tooth fairy or Santa Claus either to pick two random other creatures.

     How did Metatron know that it was supposed to be Ezekiel in there?

     Does Metatron work for the NSA?[/quote]

     Gadzeke messed up on his Green Card application! Damn those bureaucrats! They don’t miss a trick. (And Metatron is about the Crattiest bureaucrat I’ve seen). 😀

     Reply

130. [quote]Metatron: I know who you really are. And it isn’t Ezekiel.

     Well, no, he wasn’t, but he wasn’t the Tooth fairy or Santa Claus either to pick two random other creatures.

     How did Metatron know that it was supposed to be Ezekiel in there?

     Does Metatron work for the NSA?[/quote]

     Gadzeke messed up on his Green Card application! Damn those bureaucrats! They don’t miss a trick. (And Metatron is about the Crattiest bureaucrat I’ve seen). 😀

     Reply

131. I am always a little bothered when I read comments about people wishing Sam would die so he can have “peace” or wishing he had died in past seasons. It is all well and good to feel sad and wish better things for your favorite character. But Jared is a real person who completely loves his job and the people he works with. He is SO excited about this season and has done a stellar acting job these last 8-9 yrs. Especially the last two seasons. When you talk about a character dying you are talking about an unemployed actor not to mention the end of SPN. I can’t help but wince every time I see someone wish for Sam’s death because they are unhappy with the way they feel he has been treated. I hope Jared can continue to work as long as the show runs and hope he continues to enjoy it as much as he seems too!

     Little mini-vent, sorry.

     Reply

132. I am always a little bothered when I read comments about people wishing Sam would die so he can have “peace” or wishing he had died in past seasons. It is all well and good to feel sad and wish better things for your favorite character. But Jared is a real person who completely loves his job and the people he works with. He is SO excited about this season and has done a stellar acting job these last 8-9 yrs. Especially the last two seasons. When you talk about a character dying you are talking about an unemployed actor not to mention the end of SPN. I can’t help but wince every time I see someone wish for Sam’s death because they are unhappy with the way they feel he has been treated. I hope Jared can continue to work as long as the show runs and hope he continues to enjoy it as much as he seems too!

     Little mini-vent, sorry.

     Reply

133. I should have said 9 1/2 yrs instead of 8-9 yrs in my comment @67 🙂

     Reply

134. I should have said 9 1/2 yrs instead of 8-9 yrs in my comment @67 🙂

     Reply

135. [quote name=”leah d.”][quote name=”nappi815″][quote name=”eilf”]Metatron: I know who you really are. And it isn’t Ezekiel.

     Well, no, he wasn’t, but he wasn’t the Tooth fairy or Santa Claus either to pick two random other creatures.

     How did Metatron know that it was supposed to be Ezekiel in there?

     Does Metatron work for the NSA?[/quote]
     more like the cia…ten to a donut metatron has been doing a bit of spying.[/quote]

     Good point eilf! Who knew besides Dean and not-Ezekiel. How do you spell that angels name anyway?? I have seen at least 3 spellings! :D[/quote]

     Yes ‘Gadriel’, ‘Gadreel’ and ‘Satan’….I like the first spelling it looks better

     Reply

136. [quote][quote][quote]Metatron: I know who you really are. And it isn’t Ezekiel.

     Well, no, he wasn’t, but he wasn’t the Tooth fairy or Santa Claus either to pick two random other creatures.

     How did Metatron know that it was supposed to be Ezekiel in there?

     Does Metatron work for the NSA?[/quote]
     more like the cia…ten to a donut metatron has been doing a bit of spying.[/quote]

     Good point eilf! Who knew besides Dean and not-Ezekiel. How do you spell that angels name anyway?? I have seen at least 3 spellings! :D[/quote]

     Yes ‘Gadriel’, ‘Gadreel’ and ‘Satan’….I like the first spelling it looks better

     Reply

137. [quote name=”st50″][quote name=”eilf”]Metatron: I know who you really are. And it isn’t Ezekiel.

     Well, no, he wasn’t, but he wasn’t the Tooth fairy or Santa Claus either to pick two random other creatures.

     How did Metatron know that it was supposed to be Ezekiel in there?

     Does Metatron work for the NSA?[/quote]

     Gadzeke messed up on his Green Card application! Damn those bureaucrats! They don’t miss a trick. (And Metatron is about the Crattiest bureaucrat I’ve seen). :D[/quote]
     Well considering all of them (except Dean) are about 3 different entities I imagine it is quite difficult for them to pass immigration interviews 😀

     Reply

138. [quote][quote]Metatron: I know who you really are. And it isn’t Ezekiel.

     Well, no, he wasn’t, but he wasn’t the Tooth fairy or Santa Claus either to pick two random other creatures.

     How did Metatron know that it was supposed to be Ezekiel in there?

     Does Metatron work for the NSA?[/quote]

     Gadzeke messed up on his Green Card application! Damn those bureaucrats! They don’t miss a trick. (And Metatron is about the Crattiest bureaucrat I’ve seen). :D[/quote]
     Well considering all of them (except Dean) are about 3 different entities I imagine it is quite difficult for them to pass immigration interviews 😀

     Reply

139. Am I wrong but aren’t all the angels that have names that end in “iel” tend to be good angels i.e. Castiel, Samandriel, Ezekiel and the angel that answered Cas’ prayer had an iel name. I think it might matter how Gadriel/Gadreel’s name is spelled. I think wants to be good or at least redeem himself to God. We shall see.

     Reply

140. Am I wrong but aren’t all the angels that have names that end in “iel” tend to be good angels i.e. Castiel, Samandriel, Ezekiel and the angel that answered Cas’ prayer had an iel name. I think it might matter how Gadriel/Gadreel’s name is spelled. I think wants to be good or at least redeem himself to God. We shall see.

     Reply

141. [quote]Am I wrong but aren’t all the angels that have names that end in “iel” tend to be good angels i.e. Castiel, Samandriel, Ezekiel and the angel that answered Cas’ prayer had an iel name[/quote]

     One name, Uriel. And Gabriel may have eventually done good, but killing Dean over 100 times to get Sam to break does not a good angel make.

     Reply

142. [quote]Am I wrong but aren’t all the angels that have names that end in “iel” tend to be good angels i.e. Castiel, Samandriel, Ezekiel and the angel that answered Cas’ prayer had an iel name[/quote]

     One name, Uriel. And Gabriel may have eventually done good, but killing Dean over 100 times to get Sam to break does not a good angel make.

     Reply

143. it was a solid midseason finale. My predictions…
     Gadriel pretended to be manipulated the way Castiel was by Metatron. He took out Kevin to make Metatron trust him. I think he took the tablets for himself and he wants to stop Metatron and restore heaven.I think that this will come out during the torture and he and Dean will join forces.

     I think Dean will go dark and break bad which will be unfortunate for anyone that is against him.

     Castiel will be focused on mediating the angel war on earth. Perhaps he will Marshall a third faction that want to return to heaven without causing harm to innocents.

     Kevin looked like Pamela so I held out hope that he wasn’t dead; however, his subsequent tweet speaks otherwise.

     Crowley may ride with TFW again for mutual benefit. I am sure he withheld information because he wasn’t asked the right questions, and knows how to get around Metatron’s spell. I can picture him helping Dean in return for Dean helping with Abaddon. This may be why Dean and Cain interact later this season.

     Not sure what to say about Sam. He should be dead according to Vesta. Sam is gone is an odd way to voice Gad’s dominance. Maybe he allowed Sam to move on and kept his body. I am not sure we have had any Sam spoilers beyond that Dean would spill the beans this episode and there would be angst. We got both. He is so far out of the loop at this point and Dean already knows and has admitted that he wasn’t thinking… he just grabbed at the only option to save Sam. If Dean learns a lesson Sam will be dead, stay dead. So be careful what you wish for. I prefer Gad myself but those who like Sam might tone down the vengeance against Dean for loving too much. At least he cares enough to try. He may have made a bad call but he did it for love, not for hubris or power. Love is not a sin.

     Reply

144. it was a solid midseason finale. My predictions…
     Gadriel pretended to be manipulated the way Castiel was by Metatron. He took out Kevin to make Metatron trust him. I think he took the tablets for himself and he wants to stop Metatron and restore heaven.I think that this will come out during the torture and he and Dean will join forces.

     I think Dean will go dark and break bad which will be unfortunate for anyone that is against him.

     Castiel will be focused on mediating the angel war on earth. Perhaps he will Marshall a third faction that want to return to heaven without causing harm to innocents.

     Kevin looked like Pamela so I held out hope that he wasn’t dead; however, his subsequent tweet speaks otherwise.

     Crowley may ride with TFW again for mutual benefit. I am sure he withheld information because he wasn’t asked the right questions, and knows how to get around Metatron’s spell. I can picture him helping Dean in return for Dean helping with Abaddon. This may be why Dean and Cain interact later this season.

     Not sure what to say about Sam. He should be dead according to Vesta. Sam is gone is an odd way to voice Gad’s dominance. Maybe he allowed Sam to move on and kept his body. I am not sure we have had any Sam spoilers beyond that Dean would spill the beans this episode and there would be angst. We got both. He is so far out of the loop at this point and Dean already knows and has admitted that he wasn’t thinking… he just grabbed at the only option to save Sam. If Dean learns a lesson Sam will be dead, stay dead. So be careful what you wish for. I prefer Gad myself but those who like Sam might tone down the vengeance against Dean for loving too much. At least he cares enough to try. He may have made a bad call but he did it for love, not for hubris or power. Love is not a sin.

     Reply

145. Oops how could I forget Uriel.
     Who wants vengeance against Dean? He needs to own up to his actions but no one questions his love for Sam. And yes Sam would have very much preferred to be dead than to be the cause of all the harm inflicted by Gadriel and now Metatron. And now Dean is going to set the king of hell loose. More destruction in the name of saving Sam. Dean, Dean, Dean you have some splainin’ to do.

     Reply

146. Oops how could I forget Uriel.
     Who wants vengeance against Dean? He needs to own up to his actions but no one questions his love for Sam. And yes Sam would have very much preferred to be dead than to be the cause of all the harm inflicted by Gadriel and now Metatron. And now Dean is going to set the king of hell loose. More destruction in the name of saving Sam. Dean, Dean, Dean you have some splainin’ to do.

     Reply

147. [quote]If Dean learns a lesson Sam will be dead, stay dead. So be careful what you wish for.[/quote]huh.I don’t get it.[quote]I prefer Gad myself but those who like Sam might tone down the vengeance against Dean for loving too much.[/quote] Threat? Are you TPTB that your preference should matter to us?We will criticize dean irrespective of anything happening to sam so kindly keep your threats to yourself. Dean’s love caused apocalypse and now god knows what?If instead of resurrecting Sam he had simply killed Jake no apocalyse.Dean loves Sam but when its Sam’s death he has no regard for the world he lives in.Dean’s “bad call” had SAM possessed,had Gadriel kill Kevin in Sam’s body and then now god alone knows what has happened to SAM (whether he is in his body or moved on)you know the same Sam that Dean did this for and we should be sorry for Dean what about Sam?.Yeah not buying what you are selling.Jimmy was better than castiel and dean was better with Lisa but we always can’t get what we want do we.

     Reply

148. [quote]If Dean learns a lesson Sam will be dead, stay dead. So be careful what you wish for.[/quote]huh.I don’t get it.[quote]I prefer Gad myself but those who like Sam might tone down the vengeance against Dean for loving too much.[/quote] Threat? Are you TPTB that your preference should matter to us?We will criticize dean irrespective of anything happening to sam so kindly keep your threats to yourself. Dean’s love caused apocalypse and now god knows what?If instead of resurrecting Sam he had simply killed Jake no apocalyse.Dean loves Sam but when its Sam’s death he has no regard for the world he lives in.Dean’s “bad call” had SAM possessed,had Gadriel kill Kevin in Sam’s body and then now god alone knows what has happened to SAM (whether he is in his body or moved on)you know the same Sam that Dean did this for and we should be sorry for Dean what about Sam?.Yeah not buying what you are selling.Jimmy was better than castiel and dean was better with Lisa but we always can’t get what we want do we.

     Reply

149. [quote name=”castiels cat”]it was a solid midseason finale. My predictions…
     Gadriel pretended to be manipulated the way Castiel was by Metatron. He took out Kevin to make Metatron trust him. I think he took the tablets for himself and he wants to stop Metatron and restore heaven.I think that this will come out during the torture and he and Dean will join forces.

     I think Dean will go dark and break bad which will be unfortunate for anyone that is against him.

     Castiel will be focused on mediating the angel war on earth. Perhaps he will Marshall a third faction that want to return to heaven without causing harm to innocents.

     Kevin looked like Pamela so I held out hope that he wasn’t dead; however, his subsequent tweet speaks otherwise.

     Crowley may ride with TFW again for mutual benefit. I am sure he withheld information because he wasn’t asked the right questions, and knows how to get around Metatron’s spell. I can picture him helping Dean in return for Dean helping with Abaddon. This may be why Dean and Cain interact later this season.

     Not sure what to say about Sam. He should be dead according to Vesta. Sam is gone is an odd way to voice Gad’s dominance. Maybe he allowed Sam to move on and kept his body. I am not sure we have had any Sam spoilers beyond that Dean would spill the beans this episode and there would be angst. We got both. He is so far out of the loop at this point and Dean already knows and has admitted that he wasn’t thinking… he just grabbed at the only option to save Sam. If Dean learns a lesson Sam will be dead, stay dead. So be careful what you wish for. I prefer Gad myself but those who like Sam might tone down the vengeance against Dean for loving too much. At least he cares enough to try. He may have made a bad call but he did it for love, not for hubris or power. Love is not a sin.[/quote]
     There is alot I could say about your post . Dean did what did out of selfishness as much has love had to do with it, so please do not put love down as the only reason for all of this .

     I do not with respect think you are in a position to ask Sam fans in particular not to be upset or maybe angered by what has happened .Those of us who care about Sam has a person will rightfully be concerned for him and his well being .I cannot care wether you perfer the angel , to me and I would think others Sam is all that matters and how he is brought back and the Sam we get back.

     Dean screwed up , thats it , you cannot hate on Sam and his actions for ages and then expect a opposite reaction for Dean. Hold your hands up and admit he all be it part way out of love made a decision for himself and both Kevin and Sam have paid the price.
     I am not looking to fling out hate on Dean thats not me but I do expect some honesty where this mess is concerned.

     Reply

150. [quote]it was a solid midseason finale. My predictions…
     Gadriel pretended to be manipulated the way Castiel was by Metatron. He took out Kevin to make Metatron trust him. I think he took the tablets for himself and he wants to stop Metatron and restore heaven.I think that this will come out during the torture and he and Dean will join forces.

     I think Dean will go dark and break bad which will be unfortunate for anyone that is against him.

     Castiel will be focused on mediating the angel war on earth. Perhaps he will Marshall a third faction that want to return to heaven without causing harm to innocents.

     Kevin looked like Pamela so I held out hope that he wasn’t dead; however, his subsequent tweet speaks otherwise.

     Crowley may ride with TFW again for mutual benefit. I am sure he withheld information because he wasn’t asked the right questions, and knows how to get around Metatron’s spell. I can picture him helping Dean in return for Dean helping with Abaddon. This may be why Dean and Cain interact later this season.

     Not sure what to say about Sam. He should be dead according to Vesta. Sam is gone is an odd way to voice Gad’s dominance. Maybe he allowed Sam to move on and kept his body. I am not sure we have had any Sam spoilers beyond that Dean would spill the beans this episode and there would be angst. We got both. He is so far out of the loop at this point and Dean already knows and has admitted that he wasn’t thinking… he just grabbed at the only option to save Sam. If Dean learns a lesson Sam will be dead, stay dead. So be careful what you wish for. I prefer Gad myself but those who like Sam might tone down the vengeance against Dean for loving too much. At least he cares enough to try. He may have made a bad call but he did it for love, not for hubris or power. Love is not a sin.[/quote]
     There is alot I could say about your post . Dean did what did out of selfishness as much has love had to do with it, so please do not put love down as the only reason for all of this .

     I do not with respect think you are in a position to ask Sam fans in particular not to be upset or maybe angered by what has happened .Those of us who care about Sam has a person will rightfully be concerned for him and his well being .I cannot care wether you perfer the angel , to me and I would think others Sam is all that matters and how he is brought back and the Sam we get back.

     Dean screwed up , thats it , you cannot hate on Sam and his actions for ages and then expect a opposite reaction for Dean. Hold your hands up and admit he all be it part way out of love made a decision for himself and both Kevin and Sam have paid the price.
     I am not looking to fling out hate on Dean thats not me but I do expect some honesty where this mess is concerned.

     Reply

151. Sharon, I understand that a lot of people here think the way to exonerate Sam is to blame Dean for something “worse” However, by looking at cause and effect, one sees that Kevin is dead because Metatron wanted him dead. Dean will blame himself but it is not his fault. He believed keeping him in the dark protected him. Without Gad, Metatron would have found another way. Clearly he finds the knowledge on the angel tablet a
     threat.
     Poor Dean has been going to extraordinary lengths to
     save Sam since season 2. Without Dean’s love of family there would be no Sam for the last 6+ seasons. So yes by all means tear him apart. He uses extraordinary measures to save others. it could be worse. He could do it to get powers so he feels strong or special. That would be very wrong, wouldn’t it? He could refuse to admit he’s wrong, but somehow he aleays apologizes snd bears the burden of all his actions. He could try to shift blame to his brother or his brother’s friend… Nah… Dean knew what he was foing and will take responsibility and will try to make it right. I kind of think he might go Purgatory/torture/bamf Dean and it will be glorious, but he will try to make things right. He could take a year off to shack up with a biyatch and a dog and just not care who dies. I am so glad that’s not Dean.

     Reply

152. Sharon, I understand that a lot of people here think the way to exonerate Sam is to blame Dean for something “worse” However, by looking at cause and effect, one sees that Kevin is dead because Metatron wanted him dead. Dean will blame himself but it is not his fault. He believed keeping him in the dark protected him. Without Gad, Metatron would have found another way. Clearly he finds the knowledge on the angel tablet a
     threat.
     Poor Dean has been going to extraordinary lengths to
     save Sam since season 2. Without Dean’s love of family there would be no Sam for the last 6+ seasons. So yes by all means tear him apart. He uses extraordinary measures to save others. it could be worse. He could do it to get powers so he feels strong or special. That would be very wrong, wouldn’t it? He could refuse to admit he’s wrong, but somehow he aleays apologizes snd bears the burden of all his actions. He could try to shift blame to his brother or his brother’s friend… Nah… Dean knew what he was foing and will take responsibility and will try to make it right. I kind of think he might go Purgatory/torture/bamf Dean and it will be glorious, but he will try to make things right. He could take a year off to shack up with a biyatch and a dog and just not care who dies. I am so glad that’s not Dean.

     Reply

153. Please let’s not make this Sam vs Dean vs Castiel. They’ve all made mistakes and all tried to make amends. They’re ALL heroes. And anyway, they’re only doing what the writers tell them to do 😀

     Reply

154. Please let’s not make this Sam vs Dean vs Castiel. They’ve all made mistakes and all tried to make amends. They’re ALL heroes. And anyway, they’re only doing what the writers tell them to do 😀

     Reply

155. Amen Manzanita Crow! This fandom is starting to sound like the angel faction on SPN with the constant squabbling. We’re all here because we love the same show. Right?

     Reply

156. Amen Manzanita Crow! This fandom is starting to sound like the angel faction on SPN with the constant squabbling. We’re all here because we love the same show. Right?

     Reply

157. [quote]I understand that a lot of people here think the way to exonerate Sam is to blame Dean for something “worse” [/quote]We criticize Dean for what he has done independent to what sam has done.Maybe metatron would have found another way but Dean would have no part in it.It is not the case now.[quote]Without Dean’s love of family there would be no Sam for the last 6+ seasons[/quote]This is not true.It was Mary’s Love for john and her desperation because of which Sam and dean exist i.e the original deal.Later on it was because of Sam himself [b]and[/b] because of Dean that both of them exist.[quote]bears the burden of all his actions.[/quote]Don’t expect anything less from Sam or Dean.[quote]He could take a year off to shack up with a biyatch and a dog and just not care who dies[/quote]Please don’t refer to Lisa and Ben like that.I like them.

     Reply

158. [quote]I understand that a lot of people here think the way to exonerate Sam is to blame Dean for something “worse” [/quote]We criticize Dean for what he has done independent to what sam has done.Maybe metatron would have found another way but Dean would have no part in it.It is not the case now.[quote]Without Dean’s love of family there would be no Sam for the last 6+ seasons[/quote]This is not true.It was Mary’s Love for john and her desperation because of which Sam and dean exist i.e the original deal.Later on it was because of Sam himself [b]and[/b] because of Dean that both of them exist.[quote]bears the burden of all his actions.[/quote]Don’t expect anything less from Sam or Dean.[quote]He could take a year off to shack up with a biyatch and a dog and just not care who dies[/quote]Please don’t refer to Lisa and Ben like that.I like them.

     Reply

159. i think that metatron is a very clever, patient, and disgruntled angel who’s had plenty of time to read/study about humans and stew in his own anger while living in total solitude, thus plotting and scheming til he hit the nail on the head. i am utterly convinced that metatron has most definitely been spying on the angels since he fled, which means he’s been totally aware of the apocalypse and mary, john,, sam, dean the psychic kids…all of it. i have no doubt in my heart that he’s read the winchester novels and that he knew that in order for his plan to succeed, the winchesters would be the ones to inadvertently help him. i’m not saying he had his plan formed yet, but i think he knew he would need the winchesters assistance when the time came. at some point metatron decided that his ultimate revenge would be taking over heaven and becoming the next God. i think circumstances may have delayed his plan a bit, but they certainly didn’t stop it. sam going souless i’m sure was an obstacle for him. sam’s wall breaking, yet another obstacle, then dean ending up in purgatory and sam totally breaking emotionally to where he couldn’t deal with his life anymore…yet another obstacle. but at this point i believe metatron had already formulated a plan, and i totally believe that he had everything to do with helping sam and dean. i think sam reached an emotional breaking point in which he just couldn’t bounce back from or even deal with. i believe with every fiber of my being, until proven otherwise, that metatron put that dog in front of sam’s car. metatron put amelia in sam’s path as a focus to help him heal and get his emotional strength back. metatron gave sam the time he needed to become sam again. meanwhile, i also have no doubt that metatron is the one who sent benny to protect dean, while sam got back on his feet. seems purgatory is what dean needed as well to get back on his feet. i never believed it to be an spn coincidence that benny recieved the exact location of the portal at the same time dear dead don made his comeback. how very convenient that both sam and dean went back to the cabin at the very same time. it took exactly a year for both? i know a bridge in brooklyn that’s for sale too 😆 no i think metatron waited for sam to heal, and when he saw the signs that sam was finding himself again, he gave that last little nudge and boom, don is back from the dead. once sam got that last little push out the door, benny conveniently finds the exact location of the portal. sorry but every single bit of this scenario smells like manipulation to me and after watching the role both winchesters have played so far in metatron’s scheme, i am convinced even more than before that he’s been conducting this orchestra for some time now. my personal feeling, metatron must have felt to be something so very special when God handpicked him with the sacred task of writing down his instructions on those tablets. Metatron, in God’s eyes, was valued and trusted above all other angels to keep his word. I can only imagine how a lowly angel from the secretarial pool would be overwhelmed and thus have his ego boosted to a level of superiority over the others. of course, God being there, that would be a personal high for him, but once God left, add to that his self induced banishment, his growing anger and you in essence eventually get a meglomaniac who wants to become the next God. i really do think that metatron has reached the point where he’s not going to let anyone stop him.
     that’s my take on it.

     Reply

160. i think that metatron is a very clever, patient, and disgruntled angel who’s had plenty of time to read/study about humans and stew in his own anger while living in total solitude, thus plotting and scheming til he hit the nail on the head. i am utterly convinced that metatron has most definitely been spying on the angels since he fled, which means he’s been totally aware of the apocalypse and mary, john,, sam, dean the psychic kids…all of it. i have no doubt in my heart that he’s read the winchester novels and that he knew that in order for his plan to succeed, the winchesters would be the ones to inadvertently help him. i’m not saying he had his plan formed yet, but i think he knew he would need the winchesters assistance when the time came. at some point metatron decided that his ultimate revenge would be taking over heaven and becoming the next God. i think circumstances may have delayed his plan a bit, but they certainly didn’t stop it. sam going souless i’m sure was an obstacle for him. sam’s wall breaking, yet another obstacle, then dean ending up in purgatory and sam totally breaking emotionally to where he couldn’t deal with his life anymore…yet another obstacle. but at this point i believe metatron had already formulated a plan, and i totally believe that he had everything to do with helping sam and dean. i think sam reached an emotional breaking point in which he just couldn’t bounce back from or even deal with. i believe with every fiber of my being, until proven otherwise, that metatron put that dog in front of sam’s car. metatron put amelia in sam’s path as a focus to help him heal and get his emotional strength back. metatron gave sam the time he needed to become sam again. meanwhile, i also have no doubt that metatron is the one who sent benny to protect dean, while sam got back on his feet. seems purgatory is what dean needed as well to get back on his feet. i never believed it to be an spn coincidence that benny recieved the exact location of the portal at the same time dear dead don made his comeback. how very convenient that both sam and dean went back to the cabin at the very same time. it took exactly a year for both? i know a bridge in brooklyn that’s for sale too 😆 no i think metatron waited for sam to heal, and when he saw the signs that sam was finding himself again, he gave that last little nudge and boom, don is back from the dead. once sam got that last little push out the door, benny conveniently finds the exact location of the portal. sorry but every single bit of this scenario smells like manipulation to me and after watching the role both winchesters have played so far in metatron’s scheme, i am convinced even more than before that he’s been conducting this orchestra for some time now. my personal feeling, metatron must have felt to be something so very special when God handpicked him with the sacred task of writing down his instructions on those tablets. Metatron, in God’s eyes, was valued and trusted above all other angels to keep his word. I can only imagine how a lowly angel from the secretarial pool would be overwhelmed and thus have his ego boosted to a level of superiority over the others. of course, God being there, that would be a personal high for him, but once God left, add to that his self induced banishment, his growing anger and you in essence eventually get a meglomaniac who wants to become the next God. i really do think that metatron has reached the point where he’s not going to let anyone stop him.
     that’s my take on it.

     Reply

161. I like your thoughts nappi 815. Makes a lot of sense. Are you thinking that was Metatron standing outside the house last season?

     Reply

162. I like your thoughts nappi 815. Makes a lot of sense. Are you thinking that was Metatron standing outside the house last season?

     Reply

163. [quote name=”Prix68″][quote name=”Prix68″]
     I feel like Dean’s character has now been tarnished permanently and nothing he does from here on will make it alright. [quote/]

     Hi Prix68, It’s interesting isn’t it? People were saying the exact Sam thing about Sam in season 4! I can’t help but notice that all of the fans out there (not here) who were complaining that they wanted Dean to have some of the myth arc. Well, guess what happens when you get the myth arc on this show? Your character gets to make HUGE mistakes and then get flambéd by those same fans who were just routing for you.

     Anyway, I don’t think Dean that has been tarnished permanently, I think of him as being human and having making a very human (and very BIG) mistake. His motivations for what he did and why he did it were shown in great detail and were very understandable, which was much more consideration than Sam ever got for what he did in season 4 (and in season 6 AND in season 8!). What I really hope that this does for Dean is to teach him a little bit about what it must have been like for Sam to live with such a mistake hanging over his head for all this time good intentions or no. Sam is still getting flack for what he did, both from Dean and other characters, and a little understanding from Dean about that slippery slope of good intentions would go a long way toward understanding and forgiveness.

     Reply

164. [quote][quote]
     I feel like Dean’s character has now been tarnished permanently and nothing he does from here on will make it alright. [quote/]

     Hi Prix68, It’s interesting isn’t it? People were saying the exact Sam thing about Sam in season 4! I can’t help but notice that all of the fans out there (not here) who were complaining that they wanted Dean to have some of the myth arc. Well, guess what happens when you get the myth arc on this show? Your character gets to make HUGE mistakes and then get flambéd by those same fans who were just routing for you.

     Anyway, I don’t think Dean that has been tarnished permanently, I think of him as being human and having making a very human (and very BIG) mistake. His motivations for what he did and why he did it were shown in great detail and were very understandable, which was much more consideration than Sam ever got for what he did in season 4 (and in season 6 AND in season 8!). What I really hope that this does for Dean is to teach him a little bit about what it must have been like for Sam to live with such a mistake hanging over his head for all this time good intentions or no. Sam is still getting flack for what he did, both from Dean and other characters, and a little understanding from Dean about that slippery slope of good intentions would go a long way toward understanding and forgiveness.

     Reply

165. [quote name=”nappi815″]i think that metatron is a very clever, patient, and disgruntled angel who’s had plenty of time to read/study about humans and stew in his own anger while living in total solitude, thus plotting and scheming til he hit the nail on the head. i am utterly convinced that metatron has most definitely been spying on the angels since he fled, which means he’s been totally aware of the apocalypse and mary, john,, sam, dean the psychic kids…all of it. i have no doubt in my heart that he’s read the winchester novels and that he knew that in order for his plan to succeed, the winchesters would be the ones to inadvertently help him. i’m not saying he had his plan formed yet, but i think he knew he would need the winchesters assistance when the time came. at some point metatron decided that his ultimate revenge would be taking over heaven and becoming the next God. i think circumstances may have delayed his plan a bit, but they certainly didn’t stop it. sam going souless i’m sure was an obstacle for him. sam’s wall breaking, yet another obstacle, then dean ending up in purgatory and sam totally breaking emotionally to where he couldn’t deal with his life anymore…yet another obstacle. but at this point i believe metatron had already formulated a plan, and i totally believe that he had everything to do with helping sam and dean. i think sam reached an emotional breaking point in which he just couldn’t bounce back from or even deal with. i believe with every fiber of my being, until proven otherwise, that metatron put that dog in front of sam’s car. metatron put amelia in sam’s path as a focus to help him heal and get his emotional strength back. metatron gave sam the time he needed to become sam again. meanwhile, i also have no doubt that metatron is the one who sent benny to protect dean, while sam got back on his feet. seems purgatory is what dean needed as well to get back on his feet. i never believed it to be an spn coincidence that benny recieved the exact location of the portal at the same time dear dead don made his comeback. how very convenient that both sam and dean went back to the cabin at the very same time. it took exactly a year for both? i know a bridge in brooklyn that’s for sale too 😆 no i think metatron waited for sam to heal, and when he saw the signs that sam was finding himself again, he gave that last little nudge and boom, don is back from the dead. once sam got that last little push out the door, benny conveniently finds the exact location of the portal. sorry but every single bit of this scenario smells like manipulation to me and after watching the role both winchesters have played so far in metatron’s scheme, i am convinced even more than before that he’s been conducting this orchestra for some time now. my personal feeling, metatron must have felt to be something so very special when God handpicked him with the sacred task of writing down his instructions on those tablets. Metatron, in God’s eyes, was valued and trusted above all other angels to keep his word. I can only imagine how a lowly angel from the secretarial pool would be overwhelmed and thus have his ego boosted to a level of superiority over the others. of course, God being there, that would be a personal high for him, but once God left, add to that his self induced banishment, his growing anger and you in essence eventually get a meglomaniac who wants to become the next God. i really do think that metatron has reached the point where he’s not going to let anyone stop him.
     that’s my take on it.[/quote]
     nappi815, you just blew my mind! I would love to see Metatron’s story be that (the writer’s may be mad at you if this was his plan all along!). I like the idea of Sam and Dean again being the chosen ones if you will. Jeremy Carer did say he came in with a 3 year plan. It would make sense Metatron read the Winchester book. Did anyone see them pictured in his apartment? It would be interesting to look back at that…..You reminded me of my two big questions from S8–I had thought TPTB told us we were going to find out who the Shadow figure was from (Maybe I recall that for the preview of “Torn and Frayed?”). I don’t think that was ever answered? It seems strange we never got the answer, unless it was Metatron and we have not seen that yet? The other question was how Sam and Dean arrived together at the cabin. Just a coincidence?

     Reply

166. [quote]i think that metatron is a very clever, patient, and disgruntled angel who’s had plenty of time to read/study about humans and stew in his own anger while living in total solitude, thus plotting and scheming til he hit the nail on the head. i am utterly convinced that metatron has most definitely been spying on the angels since he fled, which means he’s been totally aware of the apocalypse and mary, john,, sam, dean the psychic kids…all of it. i have no doubt in my heart that he’s read the winchester novels and that he knew that in order for his plan to succeed, the winchesters would be the ones to inadvertently help him. i’m not saying he had his plan formed yet, but i think he knew he would need the winchesters assistance when the time came. at some point metatron decided that his ultimate revenge would be taking over heaven and becoming the next God. i think circumstances may have delayed his plan a bit, but they certainly didn’t stop it. sam going souless i’m sure was an obstacle for him. sam’s wall breaking, yet another obstacle, then dean ending up in purgatory and sam totally breaking emotionally to where he couldn’t deal with his life anymore…yet another obstacle. but at this point i believe metatron had already formulated a plan, and i totally believe that he had everything to do with helping sam and dean. i think sam reached an emotional breaking point in which he just couldn’t bounce back from or even deal with. i believe with every fiber of my being, until proven otherwise, that metatron put that dog in front of sam’s car. metatron put amelia in sam’s path as a focus to help him heal and get his emotional strength back. metatron gave sam the time he needed to become sam again. meanwhile, i also have no doubt that metatron is the one who sent benny to protect dean, while sam got back on his feet. seems purgatory is what dean needed as well to get back on his feet. i never believed it to be an spn coincidence that benny recieved the exact location of the portal at the same time dear dead don made his comeback. how very convenient that both sam and dean went back to the cabin at the very same time. it took exactly a year for both? i know a bridge in brooklyn that’s for sale too 😆 no i think metatron waited for sam to heal, and when he saw the signs that sam was finding himself again, he gave that last little nudge and boom, don is back from the dead. once sam got that last little push out the door, benny conveniently finds the exact location of the portal. sorry but every single bit of this scenario smells like manipulation to me and after watching the role both winchesters have played so far in metatron’s scheme, i am convinced even more than before that he’s been conducting this orchestra for some time now. my personal feeling, metatron must have felt to be something so very special when God handpicked him with the sacred task of writing down his instructions on those tablets. Metatron, in God’s eyes, was valued and trusted above all other angels to keep his word. I can only imagine how a lowly angel from the secretarial pool would be overwhelmed and thus have his ego boosted to a level of superiority over the others. of course, God being there, that would be a personal high for him, but once God left, add to that his self induced banishment, his growing anger and you in essence eventually get a meglomaniac who wants to become the next God. i really do think that metatron has reached the point where he’s not going to let anyone stop him.
     that’s my take on it.[/quote]
     nappi815, you just blew my mind! I would love to see Metatron’s story be that (the writer’s may be mad at you if this was his plan all along!). I like the idea of Sam and Dean again being the chosen ones if you will. Jeremy Carer did say he came in with a 3 year plan. It would make sense Metatron read the Winchester book. Did anyone see them pictured in his apartment? It would be interesting to look back at that…..You reminded me of my two big questions from S8–I had thought TPTB told us we were going to find out who the Shadow figure was from (Maybe I recall that for the preview of “Torn and Frayed?”). I don’t think that was ever answered? It seems strange we never got the answer, unless it was Metatron and we have not seen that yet? The other question was how Sam and Dean arrived together at the cabin. Just a coincidence?

     Reply

167. I have always thought it to be metatron from the moment i learned of his character…i still believe it and in all honesty if it was supposed to be don, i see no reason why show hasn’t explicitly showed or told us…show never told us anything regarding the mystery figure…it was totally dropped…but forgotten?…maybe not.

     Reply

168. I have always thought it to be metatron from the moment i learned of his character…i still believe it and in all honesty if it was supposed to be don, i see no reason why show hasn’t explicitly showed or told us…show never told us anything regarding the mystery figure…it was totally dropped…but forgotten?…maybe not.

     Reply

169. [quote name=”anonymousN”][quote]If Dean learns a lesson Sam will be dead, stay dead. So be careful what you wish for.[/quote]huh.I don’t get it.[quote]I prefer Gad myself but those who like Sam might tone down the vengeance against Dean for loving too much.[/quote] Threat? Are you TPTB that your preference should matter to us?We will criticize dean irrespective of anything happening to sam so kindly keep your threats to yourself. Dean’s love caused apocalypse and now god knows what?If instead of resurrecting Sam he had simply killed Jake no apocalyse.Dean loves Sam but when its Sam’s death he has no regard for the world he lives in.[/quote]

     If Mary hadn’t made the deal, no Apocalypse. If John hadn’t made the deal, no Apocalypse. If Sam was less obsessive or loved Dean less, he wouldn’t have tried so hard and be successful in saving Dean in Faith and Mystery Spot, with some very questionable methods. No Apocalypse.

     You can put it just on Dean. Actually, “it runs in the family”, as Dean said. Dean is very much like Mary (facing being all alone was what made her close the deal) and Sam very much like John (obsessive and, now, too tired to face the future, therefore putting the situation on another’s hands).

     Reply

170. [quote][quote]If Dean learns a lesson Sam will be dead, stay dead. So be careful what you wish for.[/quote]huh.I don’t get it.[quote]I prefer Gad myself but those who like Sam might tone down the vengeance against Dean for loving too much.[/quote] Threat? Are you TPTB that your preference should matter to us?We will criticize dean irrespective of anything happening to sam so kindly keep your threats to yourself. Dean’s love caused apocalypse and now god knows what?If instead of resurrecting Sam he had simply killed Jake no apocalyse.Dean loves Sam but when its Sam’s death he has no regard for the world he lives in.[/quote]

     If Mary hadn’t made the deal, no Apocalypse. If John hadn’t made the deal, no Apocalypse. If Sam was less obsessive or loved Dean less, he wouldn’t have tried so hard and be successful in saving Dean in Faith and Mystery Spot, with some very questionable methods. No Apocalypse.

     You can put it just on Dean. Actually, “it runs in the family”, as Dean said. Dean is very much like Mary (facing being all alone was what made her close the deal) and Sam very much like John (obsessive and, now, too tired to face the future, therefore putting the situation on another’s hands).

     Reply

171. Sorry, you “can’t” put it just on Dean.

     Reply

172. Sorry, you “can’t” put it just on Dean.

     Reply

173. You know Castiels Cat you make it so hard to have a civil discussion. Maybe you could tone down your posts to intelligent well thought out arguments for your position instead of silly statements that are designed to inflame (or amuse) the other posters here. I have tried to answer you respectfully but it doesn’t seem to help move the conversation along. We all love Dean, we all love Sam. We can be disappointed in how the characters are written and the choices that the writers make for them. But we all come to this website because we love the show and the relationship between the brothers no matter how many mistakes they make or how aggravated we get watching them make these mistakes. I see your posts on IMDB and you always seem to be far more civil than when you post here.

     Reply

174. You know Castiels Cat you make it so hard to have a civil discussion. Maybe you could tone down your posts to intelligent well thought out arguments for your position instead of silly statements that are designed to inflame (or amuse) the other posters here. I have tried to answer you respectfully but it doesn’t seem to help move the conversation along. We all love Dean, we all love Sam. We can be disappointed in how the characters are written and the choices that the writers make for them. But we all come to this website because we love the show and the relationship between the brothers no matter how many mistakes they make or how aggravated we get watching them make these mistakes. I see your posts on IMDB and you always seem to be far more civil than when you post here.

     Reply

175. [quote name=”Ale”][quote name=”anonymousN”][quote]If Dean learns a lesson Sam will be dead, stay dead. So be careful what you wish for.[/quote]huh.I don’t get it.[quote]I prefer Gad myself but those who like Sam might tone down the vengeance against Dean for loving too much.[/quote] Threat? Are you TPTB that your preference should matter to us?We will criticize dean irrespective of anything happening to sam so kindly keep your threats to yourself. Dean’s love caused apocalypse and now god knows what?If instead of resurrecting Sam he had simply killed Jake no apocalyse.Dean loves Sam but when its Sam’s death he has no regard for the world he lives in.[/quote]

     If Mary hadn’t made the deal, no Apocalypse. If John hadn’t made the deal, no Apocalypse. If Sam was less obsessive or loved Dean less, he wouldn’t have tried so hard and be successful in saving Dean in Faith and Mystery Spot, with some very questionable methods. No Apocalypse.

     You can’t put it just on Dean. Actually, “it runs in the family”, as Dean said.[b] Dean is very much like Mary (facing being all alone was what made her close the deal) and Sam very much like John (obsessive and, now, too tired to face the future, therefore putting the situation on another’s hands).[/b][/quote]If cupid hadn’t hit J and M with his arrow no apocalypse.My comment was in response to a comment.My thoughts on the show are not ‘summarized in that one comment and I dont have the inclination at this moment to describe my position on the whole show as I have done it in the respective articles in response to the reviews.
     I don’t put it all on Dean as I don’t put it all on Sam.As far as the bolded part goes Sorry as I have seen in the show it is not so clear cut.

     Reply

176. [quote][quote][quote]If Dean learns a lesson Sam will be dead, stay dead. So be careful what you wish for.[/quote]huh.I don’t get it.[quote]I prefer Gad myself but those who like Sam might tone down the vengeance against Dean for loving too much.[/quote] Threat? Are you TPTB that your preference should matter to us?We will criticize dean irrespective of anything happening to sam so kindly keep your threats to yourself. Dean’s love caused apocalypse and now god knows what?If instead of resurrecting Sam he had simply killed Jake no apocalyse.Dean loves Sam but when its Sam’s death he has no regard for the world he lives in.[/quote]

     If Mary hadn’t made the deal, no Apocalypse. If John hadn’t made the deal, no Apocalypse. If Sam was less obsessive or loved Dean less, he wouldn’t have tried so hard and be successful in saving Dean in Faith and Mystery Spot, with some very questionable methods. No Apocalypse.

     You can’t put it just on Dean. Actually, “it runs in the family”, as Dean said.[b] Dean is very much like Mary (facing being all alone was what made her close the deal) and Sam very much like John (obsessive and, now, too tired to face the future, therefore putting the situation on another’s hands).[/b][/quote]If cupid hadn’t hit J and M with his arrow no apocalypse.My comment was in response to a comment.My thoughts on the show are not ‘summarized in that one comment and I dont have the inclination at this moment to describe my position on the whole show as I have done it in the respective articles in response to the reviews.
     I don’t put it all on Dean as I don’t put it all on Sam.As far as the bolded part goes Sorry as I have seen in the show it is not so clear cut.

     Reply

177. [quote name=”castiels cat”]Sharon, I understand that a lot of people here think the way to exonerate Sam is to blame Dean for something “worse” However, by looking at cause and effect, one sees that Kevin is dead because Metatron wanted him dead. Dean will blame himself but it is not his fault. He believed keeping him in the dark protected him. Without Gad, Metatron would have found another way. Clearly he finds the knowledge on the angel tablet a
     threat.
     Poor Dean has been going to extraordinary lengths to
     save Sam since season 2. Without Dean’s love of family there would be no Sam for the last 6+ seasons. So yes by all means tear him apart. He uses extraordinary measures to save others. it could be worse. He could do it to get powers so he feels strong or special. That would be very wrong, wouldn’t it? He could refuse to admit he’s wrong, but somehow he aleays apologizes snd bears the burden of all his actions. He could try to shift blame to his brother or his brother’s friend… Nah… Dean knew what he was foing and will take responsibility and will try to make it right. I kind of think he might go Purgatory/torture/bamf Dean and it will be glorious, but he will try to make things right. He could take a year off to shack up with a biyatch and a dog and just not care who dies. I am so glad that’s not Dean.[/quote]
     Civilised intelligent answer . I think it is best to say that you and I are two different people and two different mindsets . We could all play tit for tat where the brothers are concerned but it has very little to do with what has happened to Sam or Kevin come to that.

     I see nobody tearing him apart and nobody would deny his impact on Sam’s life but again that has nothing to do with now . You tear Sam down and yet fear Dean being torn down because of his actions .

     Reply

178. [quote]Sharon, I understand that a lot of people here think the way to exonerate Sam is to blame Dean for something “worse” However, by looking at cause and effect, one sees that Kevin is dead because Metatron wanted him dead. Dean will blame himself but it is not his fault. He believed keeping him in the dark protected him. Without Gad, Metatron would have found another way. Clearly he finds the knowledge on the angel tablet a
     threat.
     Poor Dean has been going to extraordinary lengths to
     save Sam since season 2. Without Dean’s love of family there would be no Sam for the last 6+ seasons. So yes by all means tear him apart. He uses extraordinary measures to save others. it could be worse. He could do it to get powers so he feels strong or special. That would be very wrong, wouldn’t it? He could refuse to admit he’s wrong, but somehow he aleays apologizes snd bears the burden of all his actions. He could try to shift blame to his brother or his brother’s friend… Nah… Dean knew what he was foing and will take responsibility and will try to make it right. I kind of think he might go Purgatory/torture/bamf Dean and it will be glorious, but he will try to make things right. He could take a year off to shack up with a biyatch and a dog and just not care who dies. I am so glad that’s not Dean.[/quote]
     Civilised intelligent answer . I think it is best to say that you and I are two different people and two different mindsets . We could all play tit for tat where the brothers are concerned but it has very little to do with what has happened to Sam or Kevin come to that.

     I see nobody tearing him apart and nobody would deny his impact on Sam’s life but again that has nothing to do with now . You tear Sam down and yet fear Dean being torn down because of his actions .

     Reply

179. I do not feel any need to exonerate Sam as he has already done that for himself. He has admitted fault, apologised for his mistakes and thrown himself into Hell to make amends, expecting to be tortured by Lucifer for eternity.

     I’m happy to post links to transcripts backing up these points if anyone is interested. Otherwise, I’m perfectly happy to agree to disagree with those who interpret canon differently.

     In the end it is just a TV show and I want to enjoy it, not argue about it.

     Reply

180. I do not feel any need to exonerate Sam as he has already done that for himself. He has admitted fault, apologised for his mistakes and thrown himself into Hell to make amends, expecting to be tortured by Lucifer for eternity.

     I’m happy to post links to transcripts backing up these points if anyone is interested. Otherwise, I’m perfectly happy to agree to disagree with those who interpret canon differently.

     In the end it is just a TV show and I want to enjoy it, not argue about it.

     Reply

181. #83 E – I understood, personally, why Sam made his choice last year and was not one of those who saw fault with that choice. It made sense to me. I should also say that I am a huge Dean girl and supporter but I think the PTB put the character of Dean in a very wrong place. Of course he had to save Sam or there would be no show but they could have had Dean tell Sam immediately and not take away Sam’s ability to decide or they could have had the possessing angel trick Dean into believing Sam approved.

     I also never thought Dean needed the myth arc but I also didn’t want him as the “guilty cheerleader” like the second half of last year and I liked S4 and almost right up to the end thought Sam was making the smart choice using his powers.

     I still love the show. I’ll just feel a little more stress when I watch knowing that this will all be on Dean and gosh I hate that but ya can’t always get what you want! Lol

     Reply

182. #83 E – I understood, personally, why Sam made his choice last year and was not one of those who saw fault with that choice. It made sense to me. I should also say that I am a huge Dean girl and supporter but I think the PTB put the character of Dean in a very wrong place. Of course he had to save Sam or there would be no show but they could have had Dean tell Sam immediately and not take away Sam’s ability to decide or they could have had the possessing angel trick Dean into believing Sam approved.

     I also never thought Dean needed the myth arc but I also didn’t want him as the “guilty cheerleader” like the second half of last year and I liked S4 and almost right up to the end thought Sam was making the smart choice using his powers.

     I still love the show. I’ll just feel a little more stress when I watch knowing that this will all be on Dean and gosh I hate that but ya can’t always get what you want! Lol

     Reply

183. [quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]
     In the end it is just a TV show and I want to enjoy it, not argue about it.[/quote]

     Thanks, MC. That’s exactly how I feel about it.
     Discussion is great, because there’s so much “grey area” in this show – so much is left open to interpretation that every view has some merits – but the blame-game is not fun in the least.

     They’re all human (well, Cas WAS human, lol), they’ve ALL made mistakes with the best of intentions, and they’ve ALL beaten themselves up for it. It’s partly the fact that they ALL do it that makes for fun television.

     🙂

     Reply

184. [quote]
     In the end it is just a TV show and I want to enjoy it, not argue about it.[/quote]

     Thanks, MC. That’s exactly how I feel about it.
     Discussion is great, because there’s so much “grey area” in this show – so much is left open to interpretation that every view has some merits – but the blame-game is not fun in the least.

     They’re all human (well, Cas WAS human, lol), they’ve ALL made mistakes with the best of intentions, and they’ve ALL beaten themselves up for it. It’s partly the fact that they ALL do it that makes for fun television.

     🙂

     Reply

185. [quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]I do not feel any need to exonerate Sam as he has already done that for himself. [/quote]

     Likewise MC 😀

     Reply

186. [quote]I do not feel any need to exonerate Sam as he has already done that for himself. [/quote]

     Likewise MC 😀

     Reply

187. Quoting Manzanita Crow: “In the end it is just a TV show and I want to enjoy it, not argue about it”.

     That’s how I feel too MC. I do enjoy a good debate but all too often the finger pointing and blame game enters in to it. The Sam vs Dean stuff is never ending. There is a way to defend the character you love without subtly or overtly taking a shot at the other character(s). No character is perfect or has escaped the wrath of the fans. Is there a way to have a discussion without the snide and sarcastic comments? Respect for other posters is the key. We CAN disagree with respect and many posters here strive to do that regardless of which character(s) they love. It gets so contentious here at times it runs people off.

     Reply

188. Quoting Manzanita Crow: “In the end it is just a TV show and I want to enjoy it, not argue about it”.

     That’s how I feel too MC. I do enjoy a good debate but all too often the finger pointing and blame game enters in to it. The Sam vs Dean stuff is never ending. There is a way to defend the character you love without subtly or overtly taking a shot at the other character(s). No character is perfect or has escaped the wrath of the fans. Is there a way to have a discussion without the snide and sarcastic comments? Respect for other posters is the key. We CAN disagree with respect and many posters here strive to do that regardless of which character(s) they love. It gets so contentious here at times it runs people off.

     Reply

189. [quote name=”st50″][quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]
     In the end it is just a TV show and I want to enjoy it, not argue about it.[/quote]
     They’re all human (well, Cas WAS human, lol), they’ve ALL made mistakes with the best of intentions, and they’ve ALL beaten themselves up for it. It’s partly the fact that they ALL do it that makes for fun television. :-)[/quote]

     Yep, this too !

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190. [quote][quote]
     In the end it is just a TV show and I want to enjoy it, not argue about it.[/quote]
     They’re all human (well, Cas WAS human, lol), they’ve ALL made mistakes with the best of intentions, and they’ve ALL beaten themselves up for it. It’s partly the fact that they ALL do it that makes for fun television. :-)[/quote]

     Yep, this too !

     Reply

191. I do have to add to my comment @95 that Alice and the other administrators here do an admirable job of keeping thing civil and in check!! They shouldn’t have to babysit us though, we are all adults here.

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192. I do have to add to my comment @95 that Alice and the other administrators here do an admirable job of keeping thing civil and in check!! They shouldn’t have to babysit us though, we are all adults here.

     Reply

193. [quote name=”anonymousN”][quote name=”Ale”][quote name=”anonymousN”][quote]If Dean learns a lesson Sam will be dead, stay dead. So be careful what you wish for.[/quote]huh.I don’t get it.[quote]I prefer Gad myself but those who like Sam might tone down the vengeance against Dean for loving too much.[/quote] Threat? Are you TPTB that your preference should matter to us?We will criticize dean irrespective of anything happening to sam so kindly keep your threats to yourself. Dean’s love caused apocalypse and now god knows what?If instead of resurrecting Sam he had simply killed Jake no apocalyse.Dean loves Sam but when its Sam’s death he has no regard for the world he lives in.[/quote]

     If Mary hadn’t made the deal, no Apocalypse. If John hadn’t made the deal, no Apocalypse. If Sam was less obsessive or loved Dean less, he wouldn’t have tried so hard and be successful in saving Dean in Faith and Mystery Spot, with some very questionable methods. No Apocalypse.

     You can’t put it just on Dean. Actually, “it runs in the family”, as Dean said. Dean is very much like Mary (facing being all alone was what made her close the deal) and Sam very much like John (obsessive and, now, too tired to face the future, therefore putting the situation on another’s hands).[/quote]If cupid hadn’t hit J and M with his arrow no apocalypse.My comment was in response to a comment.My thoughts on the show are not ‘summarized in that one comment and I dont have the inclination at this moment to describe my position on the whole show as I have done it in the respective articles in response to the reviews.
     I don’t put it all on Dean as I don’t put it all on Sam.As far as the bolded part goes Sorry as I have seen in the show it is not so clear cut.[/quote]

     Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but yes, my reply was to this post alone and, by this post, the statement “Dean’s love caused the apocalypse” was a pretty straight forward statement to me. I felt compelled to point out that it wasn’t just Dean’s love the started the Apocalypse, but that those 4 people from the same family commited the same mistake. For love.

     I don’t keep track on everybody’s opinion on the show as a whole. I didn’t know it was required in order to answer a post. Glad to know that you don’t put it all on Dean or Sam, though. Thanks to clarify that.

     Regarding Sam is like John and Dean is like Mary, I agree with you, it is not clear cut. Not even for me. Things are never that simple. I think Dean acted much like Mary, willing to risk anything to save a loved one because she was afraid of being alone, and Sam acted a lot like John in his quest for revenge, that absorved him and got him lost just like John. But it doesn’t mean that either of them are replicas of their parents.

     Reply

194. [quote][quote][quote][quote]If Dean learns a lesson Sam will be dead, stay dead. So be careful what you wish for.[/quote]huh.I don’t get it.[quote]I prefer Gad myself but those who like Sam might tone down the vengeance against Dean for loving too much.[/quote] Threat? Are you TPTB that your preference should matter to us?We will criticize dean irrespective of anything happening to sam so kindly keep your threats to yourself. Dean’s love caused apocalypse and now god knows what?If instead of resurrecting Sam he had simply killed Jake no apocalyse.Dean loves Sam but when its Sam’s death he has no regard for the world he lives in.[/quote]

     If Mary hadn’t made the deal, no Apocalypse. If John hadn’t made the deal, no Apocalypse. If Sam was less obsessive or loved Dean less, he wouldn’t have tried so hard and be successful in saving Dean in Faith and Mystery Spot, with some very questionable methods. No Apocalypse.

     You can’t put it just on Dean. Actually, “it runs in the family”, as Dean said. Dean is very much like Mary (facing being all alone was what made her close the deal) and Sam very much like John (obsessive and, now, too tired to face the future, therefore putting the situation on another’s hands).[/quote]If cupid hadn’t hit J and M with his arrow no apocalypse.My comment was in response to a comment.My thoughts on the show are not ‘summarized in that one comment and I dont have the inclination at this moment to describe my position on the whole show as I have done it in the respective articles in response to the reviews.
     I don’t put it all on Dean as I don’t put it all on Sam.As far as the bolded part goes Sorry as I have seen in the show it is not so clear cut.[/quote]

     Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but yes, my reply was to this post alone and, by this post, the statement “Dean’s love caused the apocalypse” was a pretty straight forward statement to me. I felt compelled to point out that it wasn’t just Dean’s love the started the Apocalypse, but that those 4 people from the same family commited the same mistake. For love.

     I don’t keep track on everybody’s opinion on the show as a whole. I didn’t know it was required in order to answer a post. Glad to know that you don’t put it all on Dean or Sam, though. Thanks to clarify that.

     Regarding Sam is like John and Dean is like Mary, I agree with you, it is not clear cut. Not even for me. Things are never that simple. I think Dean acted much like Mary, willing to risk anything to save a loved one because she was afraid of being alone, and Sam acted a lot like John in his quest for revenge, that absorved him and got him lost just like John. But it doesn’t mean that either of them are replicas of their parents.

     Reply

195. [quote]Sam acted a lot like John in his quest for revenge,[/quote]This is only if you disregard the months he spent trying to get Dean back or out of the deal.[quote]I didn’t know it was required in order to answer a post. [/quote]No you don’t have to..but at the same time I had to clarify my position.

     Reply

196. [quote]Sam acted a lot like John in his quest for revenge,[/quote]This is only if you disregard the months he spent trying to get Dean back or out of the deal.[quote]I didn’t know it was required in order to answer a post. [/quote]No you don’t have to..but at the same time I had to clarify my position.

     Reply

197. I have to say that these posts are so much fun to read.

     There is just as much angst going on with the fans as there is with the characters themselves.

     I find that these SPN writers have a special knack throwing curve-balls to the characters that take us all by surprised. There is so much “overprotecting” that fans do of their characters, but the fact that Sam or Dean do/act/behave in ways that “disappoint” us is a testament to the skill of the whole SPNfamily: writers, directors, actors, etc….

     RIP Kevin!

     Reply

198. I have to say that these posts are so much fun to read.

     There is just as much angst going on with the fans as there is with the characters themselves.

     I find that these SPN writers have a special knack throwing curve-balls to the characters that take us all by surprised. There is so much “overprotecting” that fans do of their characters, but the fact that Sam or Dean do/act/behave in ways that “disappoint” us is a testament to the skill of the whole SPNfamily: writers, directors, actors, etc….

     RIP Kevin!

     Reply

199. So here’s another question I had-if Cas, as a human, stole another angel’s grace, isn’t he basically doing the same thing that Gadreel is doing to Sam, and that Cas originally did to Jimmy (ok, except that Jimmy was a willing vessel).

     So why is he still Cas? Why isn’t he Theo, since Cas the human willingly accepted (ok, took) the grace from Theo?

     I’m probably over thinking this, but I was confused as to why Cas was still Cas, and where Theo went-if you steal grace, maybe it loses its original essence? But if that were the case, then it wouldn’t matter that Metatron stole Cas’s grace specifically-he could have just taken Naomi’s or any of the other angels he killed, yes?

     I don’t know if it is important or not, just something I was thinking about-if I missed something totally obvious about this in the story, let me know-thanks. 🙂

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200. That’s an interesting question. My theory is that it works like a possession in reverse. By stealing Theo’s grace, Cas can tap into Theo’s power but Theo himself is out of commission, like a human who has been possessed.
     I think that Metatron stole Cas’s grace specifically because it was available. Maybe it also has to do with Cas procuring the other two ingerdients of the spell. That would explain why Metatron asked Cas to do it – the last ingredient nhad to come from the one who had collected the other two.

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201. That’s an interesting question. My theory is that it works like a possession in reverse. By stealing Theo’s grace, Cas can tap into Theo’s power but Theo himself is out of commission, like a human who has been possessed.
     I think that Metatron stole Cas’s grace specifically because it was available. Maybe it also has to do with Cas procuring the other two ingerdients of the spell. That would explain why Metatron asked Cas to do it – the last ingredient nhad to come from the one who had collected the other two.

     Reply

202. On the subject of grace, I read it as GRACE is that part of God which each of them (and us irl imho) contains and which makes each of them holy … makes them angels … or as Dean says, “MOJO.” It doesn’t have a unique identity. Cas didn’t take one before because it put him on the same slime level as Metatron to do that. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

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203. On the subject of grace, I read it as GRACE is that part of God which each of them (and us irl imho) contains and which makes each of them holy … makes them angels … or as Dean says, “MOJO.” It doesn’t have a unique identity. Cas didn’t take one before because it put him on the same slime level as Metatron to do that. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

     Reply