Robin’s Rambles: Supernatural 9.07 – “Bad Boys”
*Kids play hide n seek in a big barn with a bespectacled boy. Gruesome death for the caretaker, but it’s always fun to start off an ep with bloody impalement on a piece of farm equipment.
*Sam starts to read about Oz, but answers the phone. D-dog? I love it. Now we know where Dean got the idea about hiding things from Sam–John. Sonny was a surrogate father for two months after Dean stole to feed Sam. Everybody is OK to go to the Catskills? Zeke? Lol! John left Dean at Sonny’s to punish him for stealing.
Sonny’s an ex-con.
*Dean hit the sheriff? Lol! Now we know where Dean learned to escaped handcuffs. Sonny spots bruises on Dean. Werewolf. John? Dean recalls Sonny’s place with fondness. Sonny explains how the tractor killed Jack. Ghost stuff, uh oh.
*Sam, house, finds Dean’s old bed. He carved a warding off sign on bedpost. The housekeeper tells him there’s a ghost haunting the farm.
*Dean, barn – EMF galore – finds bespectacled boy, Timmy, with action figure fighting monsters and adorably teaches him to shake hands properly–best Kung Fu grip. Jack yelled a lot, says Timmy, it got suddenly cold the night he died.
*The housekeeper tells Sam a torrid story about Howard and Doreen and Jack. Howard died, swore he’d get revenge on Jack. The brothers torch and burn Howard’s bones. But the housekeeper is brutally drowned, screaming, in the bathtub with the shower curtain while Jack tries fruitlessly to get in.
*Cus’s Place – Dean remembers Robin, the waitress he met here–who now owns the place. Dean flourished with Sonny, who wondered if Dean was into the occult. Dean wouldn’t tell him why he put salt around his bed, but Sonny said he did 15 years in jail for being loyal to his biker gang. Robin does NOT recall Dean fondly, and he hustles Sam out. They learn of the housekeeper’s death, and her missing rosary beads.
*Dean finds Timmy being bullied by two other boys and reveals his FBI badge. They used to call Ruth the warden, Timmy weird. Dean warns them to leave Timmy alone. He tells them to leave and Timmy to stand up to them once.
*Sam sees that Dean was a wrestling champ at 16.
*Robin comes to give Timmy a guitar lesson.
*The other two kids are mowing the lawn and Ruth’s rosary gets tangled in the mower. When he goes to remove it, it roars to life, spewing blood everywhere. Timmy watches from the window. A ghostly hand drops to his shoulder.
*Timmy was found alone in an abandoned building, no parents. He ran away from every place but Sonny’s. Looks like ghost possession. Sam takes the barn and finds some creepy drawings up near the ceiling.
*Dean finds Robin and remembers their teen selves. She’s expected to take over the diner but wants to be a photographer; he wants to fix cars–no responsibility. She kisses him, he lies that he’s kissed lots of girls. They practice. Dean orders Robin out, but she refuses. He asked her to the school dance after promising not to leave–but he left. Timmy tells them he’s sorry, he can’t stop it. Thing start to break and fly at them. Sam enters before Dean can stop him; they are all stuck in the house, locked in. Timmy says he can’t control her. Quickly, Dean makes a salt circle for them to stand in. Sam asks Timmy about the fire. There was a car accident. His mother saved him, pushed him out before the car blew up. He hid and cried for his mom in an empty building–she had changed. She gave him the action figure. Dean burns the figure on the stove, but the ghost doesn’t leave–Timmy is the anchor!
*His mom can’t let go and is protecting him from the grave, realizes Sam. Robin, terrified, leaves the circle, pursued by Dean. Who are you? Robin demands. The hideous-looking ghost knocks Dean and Sam down and starts killing them. Dean tells Timmy to try, tell her to stop and go away, let her go, you’ll be okay, do what’s best for you, even if it hurts the ones you love. Timmy tries, but not strongly enough, and Dean orders, gasping, Kung fu grip! It works. She ends the torture and turns beautiful. I love you, too, says Timmy. She disappears, going into the light.
*Dean tells Robin this is the family business and he didn’t go off to become a rock star. You look pretty rockin’ to me, she says. She’s happy with her life. She kisses his cheek. Dean hugs Sonny and says goodbye. Sam asks how Dean knew telling Timmy to tell his mother to leave would work. A good guess, says Dean. Sam asks him why he left when Sonny’s was such a good fit, but Dean says it just didn’t feel right to him. Then he remembers the night of the school dance–he was dressed, ready to go, and Sonny came to tell him his father was here and they had a job, whatever that means. Sonny called John “a real piece of work” and offered to ask him to come back later, but Dean, clearly disappointed, looked out the window to see the Impala and 12-year-old Sam waiting in the back seat, and told Sonny no. “Thank you, for everything, but I have to go,” he said, shaking Sonny’s hand.
*”Dean, thank you for always being there, for having my back–I know it hasn’t always been easy,” says Sam. ” I don’t know what the hell you’re talkin about,” says Dean.
There will now be a quiz, please put your books away and get ready!
1. On first watching, I wasn’t thrilled with this episode. This teen Dean seemed wrong to me. On second viewing, I liked it more. I give it an 8. You?
2. So, Dean got his first kiss at 16. I always figured Dean was an earlier starter in the romance arena. What did you think of his romance with Robin?
3. I liked Sonny. I thought he was very good for Dean, a positive role model. I found myself wishing Dean had told Sonny to tell John to drive around for two hours so he could go to that dance. But it would have been OOC for Dean. What did you think of Sonny?
4. The ghost seemed kind of stupid. Didn’t she understand these people were merely disciplinary figures in her son’s life? Why did she kill those two people? I can understand harming the bully, but Ruth and Jack, not really.
5. I loved the last exchange between Sam and Dean. I hope Sam remembers it when he learns about Zeke. Because Zeke is the ultimate in having Sam’s back.
1. 10- He was perfect. Dylan got all Deans mannerism down, and his sarcastic wit. lol.
2. Yeah, I thought this was weird too, because in a previous epi he was super stud at age 17. However I then reasoned that this relationship with Robin may have been what made him go with the whole “Girls only good for sex” thing. He realized he couldn’t really have a real relationship with anyone. 🙁
3. I liked Sonny, too. I wish he could have clocked John a good one.
4. Ghosts start to take things the wrong way after they hang around awhile and they get angry. So anyone she would see yelling at her son would piss her off. Kind of like with Bobby and how he changed as a ghost and became really angry and was even mean to the boys. Ghosts have no reasoning powers left. She made me sad really, poor kid lost his mom.
5. End of the show made the whole episode for me. Starting where young Dean is looking out the window at Sam, to Sam realizing why Dean didn’t stay there. I had tears.
5.
1. 10- He was perfect. Dylan got all Deans mannerism down, and his sarcastic wit. lol.
2. Yeah, I thought this was weird too, because in a previous epi he was super stud at age 17. However I then reasoned that this relationship with Robin may have been what made him go with the whole “Girls only good for sex” thing. He realized he couldn’t really have a real relationship with anyone. 🙁
3. I liked Sonny, too. I wish he could have clocked John a good one.
4. Ghosts start to take things the wrong way after they hang around awhile and they get angry. So anyone she would see yelling at her son would piss her off. Kind of like with Bobby and how he changed as a ghost and became really angry and was even mean to the boys. Ghosts have no reasoning powers left. She made me sad really, poor kid lost his mom.
5. End of the show made the whole episode for me. Starting where young Dean is looking out the window at Sam, to Sam realizing why Dean didn’t stay there. I had tears.
5.
Thanks for rambling, Robin.
1. I liked it too. I give it a 9.5
2. Since we now know Dean was supposed to be 14 in this episode, that makes more sense. He and Robin were sweet – and she had a great name!
3. Liked Sonny too. Yes, would have been OOC – since there was a job, Dean knew people needed to be saved, so he would not just go off to a dance
4. We have been told ghosts do not see shades of gray – threaten to whip her kid, yell at him – all bad. Plus, she was starting to go crazy, as all ghosts do eventually
5. My favorite part of the episode. Yes, there will be angst, but Sam will forgive him – after we all get our hearts beaten up for a while, of course.
Thanks for rambling, Robin.
1. I liked it too. I give it a 9.5
2. Since we now know Dean was supposed to be 14 in this episode, that makes more sense. He and Robin were sweet – and she had a great name!
3. Liked Sonny too. Yes, would have been OOC – since there was a job, Dean knew people needed to be saved, so he would not just go off to a dance
4. We have been told ghosts do not see shades of gray – threaten to whip her kid, yell at him – all bad. Plus, she was starting to go crazy, as all ghosts do eventually
5. My favorite part of the episode. Yes, there will be angst, but Sam will forgive him – after we all get our hearts beaten up for a while, of course.
1. I give it a 9.8 Loved, loved, loved. Young Dean did a great job of hitting older Dean’s mannerisms to the degree it was spooky.
2. I liked how they told her story, went from thinking she was a bitch for being so nasty to Dean to understanding the he left after he said he wouldn’t.
3. Sonny was great. I get why John left Dean though. He lost food money. I appreciated Dean telling Sam it was on him, not their dad.
4. The ghost story was so sad. Good golly. But the special effects when she shed her bad ghost vibe were incredible. Nice job FX team!
5. Scream, laugh, cry. In that order, with the crying at the end. I LOVED that Sam thanked Dean and I loved Dean’s reaction, aside from acting like it wasn’t a thing. Seemed like he breathed a huge sigh of relief, knowing he’s got to fess up sooner or later about Zeke.
Special note: Sammy digging the grave and straining to do so. Bonus: He stayed conscious the whole show! Again! I’m ready for Sam to be back, all Sam.
1. I give it a 9.8 Loved, loved, loved. Young Dean did a great job of hitting older Dean’s mannerisms to the degree it was spooky.
2. I liked how they told her story, went from thinking she was a bitch for being so nasty to Dean to understanding the he left after he said he wouldn’t.
3. Sonny was great. I get why John left Dean though. He lost food money. I appreciated Dean telling Sam it was on him, not their dad.
4. The ghost story was so sad. Good golly. But the special effects when she shed her bad ghost vibe were incredible. Nice job FX team!
5. Scream, laugh, cry. In that order, with the crying at the end. I LOVED that Sam thanked Dean and I loved Dean’s reaction, aside from acting like it wasn’t a thing. Seemed like he breathed a huge sigh of relief, knowing he’s got to fess up sooner or later about Zeke.
Special note: Sammy digging the grave and straining to do so. Bonus: He stayed conscious the whole show! Again! I’m ready for Sam to be back, all Sam.
[quote]3. Sonny was great. I get why John left Dean though. He lost food money. I appreciated Dean telling Sam it was on him, not their dad[/quote]
Sonny was great. Since we have no POV for John I’m not sure if he left Dean because he lost food money or because he got caught stealing. John was a very much live under the radar kind of guy. Stealing, running credit card scams, etc. were fine. Getting caught was a whole different story.
[quote]3. Sonny was great. I get why John left Dean though. He lost food money. I appreciated Dean telling Sam it was on him, not their dad[/quote]
Sonny was great. Since we have no POV for John I’m not sure if he left Dean because he lost food money or because he got caught stealing. John was a very much live under the radar kind of guy. Stealing, running credit card scams, etc. were fine. Getting caught was a whole different story.
1 – 7. The boy was good in delivering sweet part of Dean’s nature but to take him for Dean I should have taken off my glasses.
2 – No way. Jensen once told that he had kissed a girl at his first day at school – and got immediately suspended. Dean couldn’t be much slower. And with all that moving around he couldn’t hope for long relations anyway.
3 – Sonny was great, so was the actor.
4 – the ghost was insane. Sad story. Timmy looked so lonely and lost in the ending scene, the poor kid.
5 – there should be a big question mark.
1 – 7. The boy was good in delivering sweet part of Dean’s nature but to take him for Dean I should have taken off my glasses.
2 – No way. Jensen once told that he had kissed a girl at his first day at school – and got immediately suspended. Dean couldn’t be much slower. And with all that moving around he couldn’t hope for long relations anyway.
3 – Sonny was great, so was the actor.
4 – the ghost was insane. Sad story. Timmy looked so lonely and lost in the ending scene, the poor kid.
5 – there should be a big question mark.
1. I didn’t like it (what I now call the ‘David Copperfield-episode’) enough to give it a second watch. I give it a 4. Sorry.
2. Yeah, that was OOC imo. Also, I am generally wary about jump-the-shark storylines that involve ‘major reveal in a main character’s life that somehow didn’t get addressed at all until an ungodly late season’. [The Adam storyline might have been like that, but it ended up playing an important part in the mythology, so I’m okay with it]. Also, I’m gonna rant a bit about how this episode promoted two things I find myself in disagreement of:
A. John Winchester was an abusive parent who cared nothing for Dean and was willing to let him rot in jail (???? seriously?) – for STEALING FOOD??? (how is that any worse from the credit card scams they’ve always done, hustling pool, etc? :/) And how does this tie in with him being overprotective of his sons and sacrificing his life for Dean at the end of S2?
And B. As a child, Dean sacrificed everything for Sam at the expense of his physical well being – ie starving himself so Sam could eat, etc. Don’t get me wrong, I love the brother’s codependency as much as anyone but this idea is a favourite among the people who think the Sam/Dean relationship is unhealthy and they both should grow out of it. It’s the same play that Carver has backed from the very start (Mystery Spot) and since he’s become a showrunner, it has and continues to be enforced. I must say this pop psychology approach in regard to Supernatural of all shows is kind of lame and it annoys me.
Sorry if I sound unduly harsh, but I guess that’s my opinion. *shrug*
1. I didn’t like it (what I now call the ‘David Copperfield-episode’) enough to give it a second watch. I give it a 4. Sorry.
2. Yeah, that was OOC imo. Also, I am generally wary about jump-the-shark storylines that involve ‘major reveal in a main character’s life that somehow didn’t get addressed at all until an ungodly late season’. [The Adam storyline might have been like that, but it ended up playing an important part in the mythology, so I’m okay with it]. Also, I’m gonna rant a bit about how this episode promoted two things I find myself in disagreement of:
A. John Winchester was an abusive parent who cared nothing for Dean and was willing to let him rot in jail (???? seriously?) – for STEALING FOOD??? (how is that any worse from the credit card scams they’ve always done, hustling pool, etc? :/) And how does this tie in with him being overprotective of his sons and sacrificing his life for Dean at the end of S2?
And B. As a child, Dean sacrificed everything for Sam at the expense of his physical well being – ie starving himself so Sam could eat, etc. Don’t get me wrong, I love the brother’s codependency as much as anyone but this idea is a favourite among the people who think the Sam/Dean relationship is unhealthy and they both should grow out of it. It’s the same play that Carver has backed from the very start (Mystery Spot) and since he’s become a showrunner, it has and continues to be enforced. I must say this pop psychology approach in regard to Supernatural of all shows is kind of lame and it annoys me.
Sorry if I sound unduly harsh, but I guess that’s my opinion. *shrug*
[quote name=”percysowner”][quote]3. Sonny was great. I get why John left Dean though. He lost food money. I appreciated Dean telling Sam it was on him, not their dad[/quote]
Sonny was great. Since we have no POV for John I’m not sure if he left Dean because he lost food money or because he got caught stealing. John was a very much live under the radar kind of guy. Stealing, running credit card scams, etc. were fine. Getting caught was a whole different story.[/quote]
That is an excellent point. You are probably closer to the truth there, because he got caught. I still don’t see that as being abusive. Hard, yes, but the hard lessons had to be taught, or Dean wouldn’t be alive. As they say, John did the best he could.
[quote][quote]3. Sonny was great. I get why John left Dean though. He lost food money. I appreciated Dean telling Sam it was on him, not their dad[/quote]
Sonny was great. Since we have no POV for John I’m not sure if he left Dean because he lost food money or because he got caught stealing. John was a very much live under the radar kind of guy. Stealing, running credit card scams, etc. were fine. Getting caught was a whole different story.[/quote]
That is an excellent point. You are probably closer to the truth there, because he got caught. I still don’t see that as being abusive. Hard, yes, but the hard lessons had to be taught, or Dean wouldn’t be alive. As they say, John did the best he could.
I think it’s possible that John left Dean with Sonny for his own good, and didn’t dump him there because he was tired of Dean being bad. John may have felt that Sonny could do what he couldn’t since John was aware he had flaws. He had them before Mary was killed. One of his vices was drinking which we saw in the first episode.
I think it’s possible that John left Dean with Sonny for his own good, and didn’t dump him there because he was tired of Dean being bad. John may have felt that Sonny could do what he couldn’t since John was aware he had flaws. He had them before Mary was killed. One of his vices was drinking which we saw in the first episode.
😆 HAPPY HOLIDAYS MY LOVELY SPN FAMILY….
yes DYLAN is a good baby DEAN. I can get nit picky about his eyes and eyebrows but wont. he had the ATTITUDE and some mannerisms JUST RIGHT 😛
JENSEN IS NOT DEAN family. I also saw the MTV snippet of JENSEN telling that story of 1st grade. please stop confusing the two. JENSEN kissed the girl back in 1st grade of his 1st day of school NOT DEAN WINCHESTER.
I give this a 7, [I love ALICE’S quips with her ratings but you must grade the episode by number and not caption. ha, look who is talking]
DEAN lovvvvvves SAM, I too, love mine but after enough I had it. PROUD of the brothers story’s that’s why I stay tuned. 9th year I let a lot of stuff slide. ie SONNY was not QUESTIONED for the ladies death in the tub….please. ha. NEXT
I cant wait for the ZEKE reveal. ROBIN you are SO DEAD ON, OR SPOT ON, about this being the next ‘test’ so to speak.
LOVE THIS SITE, OH SO MUCH. I AM ILL AND THIS IS ONE THING THAT I LOOK FORWARD TO IN MY LIFE. 8)
😆 HAPPY HOLIDAYS MY LOVELY SPN FAMILY….
yes DYLAN is a good baby DEAN. I can get nit picky about his eyes and eyebrows but wont. he had the ATTITUDE and some mannerisms JUST RIGHT 😛
JENSEN IS NOT DEAN family. I also saw the MTV snippet of JENSEN telling that story of 1st grade. please stop confusing the two. JENSEN kissed the girl back in 1st grade of his 1st day of school NOT DEAN WINCHESTER.
I give this a 7, [I love ALICE’S quips with her ratings but you must grade the episode by number and not caption. ha, look who is talking]
DEAN lovvvvvves SAM, I too, love mine but after enough I had it. PROUD of the brothers story’s that’s why I stay tuned. 9th year I let a lot of stuff slide. ie SONNY was not QUESTIONED for the ladies death in the tub….please. ha. NEXT
I cant wait for the ZEKE reveal. ROBIN you are SO DEAD ON, OR SPOT ON, about this being the next ‘test’ so to speak.
LOVE THIS SITE, OH SO MUCH. I AM ILL AND THIS IS ONE THING THAT I LOOK FORWARD TO IN MY LIFE. 8)
I’d love to think John left Dean with Sonny for his own good. Maybe he heard good things about Sonny and thought two months with him would help Dean. I just wish that Dean had been able to go to that dance with Robin! One more night! Love, Robin
[quote name=”Daisymae”]I think it’s possible that John left Dean with Sonny for his own good, and didn’t dump him there because he was tired of Dean being bad. John may have felt that Sonny could do what he couldn’t since John was aware he had flaws. He had them before Mary was killed. One of his vices was drinking which we saw in the first episode.[/quote]
I’d love to think John left Dean with Sonny for his own good. Maybe he heard good things about Sonny and thought two months with him would help Dean. I just wish that Dean had been able to go to that dance with Robin! One more night! Love, Robin
[quote]I think it’s possible that John left Dean with Sonny for his own good, and didn’t dump him there because he was tired of Dean being bad. John may have felt that Sonny could do what he couldn’t since John was aware he had flaws. He had them before Mary was killed. One of his vices was drinking which we saw in the first episode.[/quote]
I’m sorry you’re not feeling well and I hope you feel much better soon. I’m glad this site helps to make you feel better. I am so hoping that when Sam learns about Zeke, he and Dean don’t have too bad a falling-out. I hope Sam understands on some level why Dean did what he did. Love, Robin
[quote name=”NOLANOLA”]:lol: HAPPY HOLIDAYS MY LOVELY SPN FAMILY….
yes DYLAN is a good baby DEAN. I can get nit picky about his eyes and eyebrows but wont. he had the ATTITUDE and some mannerisms JUST RIGHT 😛
JENSEN IS NOT DEAN family. I also saw the MTV snippet of JENSEN telling that story of 1st grade. please stop confusing the two. JENSEN kissed the girl back in 1st grade of his 1st day of school NOT DEAN WINCHESTER.
I give this a 7, [I love ALICE’S quips with her ratings but you must grade the episode by number and not caption. ha, look who is talking]
DEAN lovvvvvves SAM, I too, love mine but after enough I had it. PROUD of the brothers story’s that’s why I stay tuned. 9th year I let a lot of stuff slide. ie SONNY was not QUESTIONED for the ladies death in the tub….please. ha. NEXT
I cant wait for the ZEKE reveal. ROBIN you are SO DEAD ON, OR SPOT ON, about this being the next ‘test’ so to speak.
LOVE THIS SITE, OH SO MUCH. I AM ILL AND THIS IS ONE THING THAT I LOOK FORWARD TO IN MY LIFE. 8)[/quote]
I’m sorry you’re not feeling well and I hope you feel much better soon. I’m glad this site helps to make you feel better. I am so hoping that when Sam learns about Zeke, he and Dean don’t have too bad a falling-out. I hope Sam understands on some level why Dean did what he did. Love, Robin
[quote]:lol: HAPPY HOLIDAYS MY LOVELY SPN FAMILY….
yes DYLAN is a good baby DEAN. I can get nit picky about his eyes and eyebrows but wont. he had the ATTITUDE and some mannerisms JUST RIGHT 😛
JENSEN IS NOT DEAN family. I also saw the MTV snippet of JENSEN telling that story of 1st grade. please stop confusing the two. JENSEN kissed the girl back in 1st grade of his 1st day of school NOT DEAN WINCHESTER.
I give this a 7, [I love ALICE’S quips with her ratings but you must grade the episode by number and not caption. ha, look who is talking]
DEAN lovvvvvves SAM, I too, love mine but after enough I had it. PROUD of the brothers story’s that’s why I stay tuned. 9th year I let a lot of stuff slide. ie SONNY was not QUESTIONED for the ladies death in the tub….please. ha. NEXT
I cant wait for the ZEKE reveal. ROBIN you are SO DEAD ON, OR SPOT ON, about this being the next ‘test’ so to speak.
LOVE THIS SITE, OH SO MUCH. I AM ILL AND THIS IS ONE THING THAT I LOOK FORWARD TO IN MY LIFE. 8)[/quote]
After a third watch, I agree, the young actor who portrayed Dean DID do a great job with the role.
As far as the kissing business was concerned, once Dean realized he could never have a permanent relationship, he figured he would settle for one-night-stands.
It would have been so great to really SEE John in this ep, wouldn’t it? I would have wanted to watch Sonny speak to John and explain the truth, and for John to understand how important this night was to his son and let him go to the dance. But I doubt John would consider a dance more important than “a job,” right?
I agree with your explanation about Timmy’s mom. She was just a fearful ghost who thought everyone an enemy out to harm Timmy.
The end of the ep was tear-inducing, all right!
Love, Robin
. 10- He was perfect. Dylan got all Deans mannerism down, and his sarcastic wit. lol.
2. Yeah, I thought this was weird too, because in a previous epi he was super stud at age 17. However I then reasoned that this relationship with Robin may have been what made him go with the whole “Girls only good for sex” thing. He realized he couldn’t really have a real relationship with anyone. 🙁
3. I liked Sonny, too. I wish he could have clocked John a good one.
4. Ghosts start to take things the wrong way after they hang around awhile and they get angry. So anyone she would see yelling at her son would piss her off. Kind of like with Bobby and how he changed as a ghost and became really angry and was even mean to the boys. Ghosts have no reasoning powers left. She made me sad really, poor kid lost his mom.
5. End of the show made the whole episode for me. Starting where young Dean is looking out the window at Sam, to Sam realizing why Dean didn’t stay there. I had tears.
5.[/quote]
After a third watch, I agree, the young actor who portrayed Dean DID do a great job with the role.
As far as the kissing business was concerned, once Dean realized he could never have a permanent relationship, he figured he would settle for one-night-stands.
It would have been so great to really SEE John in this ep, wouldn’t it? I would have wanted to watch Sonny speak to John and explain the truth, and for John to understand how important this night was to his son and let him go to the dance. But I doubt John would consider a dance more important than “a job,” right?
I agree with your explanation about Timmy’s mom. She was just a fearful ghost who thought everyone an enemy out to harm Timmy.
The end of the ep was tear-inducing, all right!
Love, Robin
. 10- He was perfect. Dylan got all Deans mannerism down, and his sarcastic wit. lol.
2. Yeah, I thought this was weird too, because in a previous epi he was super stud at age 17. However I then reasoned that this relationship with Robin may have been what made him go with the whole “Girls only good for sex” thing. He realized he couldn’t really have a real relationship with anyone. 🙁
3. I liked Sonny, too. I wish he could have clocked John a good one.
4. Ghosts start to take things the wrong way after they hang around awhile and they get angry. So anyone she would see yelling at her son would piss her off. Kind of like with Bobby and how he changed as a ghost and became really angry and was even mean to the boys. Ghosts have no reasoning powers left. She made me sad really, poor kid lost his mom.
5. End of the show made the whole episode for me. Starting where young Dean is looking out the window at Sam, to Sam realizing why Dean didn’t stay there. I had tears.
5.[/quote]
[You are entitled to your opinion as we all are. But I thought John knew Dean was spending those two months at Sonny’s and not in jail? I figured he learned that Dean wasn’t going to be incarcerated but sent to Sonny’s, asked around, and decided to leave Dean there because he heard great things about Sonny and decided it would be the best place for Dean. In his own way, John made a good parental decision there.
quote name=”blushenka”]1. I didn’t like it (what I now call the ‘David Copperfield-episode’) enough to give it a second watch. I give it a 4. Sorry.
2. Yeah, that was OOC imo. Also, I am generally wary about jump-the-shark storylines that involve ‘major reveal in a main character’s life that somehow didn’t get addressed at all until an ungodly late season’. [The Adam storyline might have been like that, but it ended up playing an important part in the mythology, so I’m okay with it]. Also, I’m gonna rant a bit about how this episode promoted two things I find myself in disagreement of: I don’t see this episode fostering pop psych, either. JMHO.
Love, Robin
A. John Winchester was an abusive parent who cared nothing for Dean and was willing to let him rot in jail (???? seriously?) – for STEALING FOOD??? (how is that any worse from the credit card scams they’ve always done, hustling pool, etc? :/) And how does this tie in with him being overprotective of his sons and sacrificing his life for Dean at the end of S2?
And B. As a child, Dean sacrificed everything for Sam at the expense of his physical well being – ie starving himself so Sam could eat, etc. Don’t get me wrong, I love the brother’s codependency as much as anyone but this idea is a favourite among the people who think the Sam/Dean relationship is unhealthy and they both should grow out of it. It’s the same play that Carver has backed from the very start (Mystery Spot) and since he’s become a showrunner, it has and continues to be enforced. I must say this pop psychology approach in regard to Supernatural of all shows is kind of lame and it annoys me.
Sorry if I sound unduly harsh, but I guess that’s my opinion. *shrug*[/quote]
[You are entitled to your opinion as we all are. But I thought John knew Dean was spending those two months at Sonny’s and not in jail? I figured he learned that Dean wasn’t going to be incarcerated but sent to Sonny’s, asked around, and decided to leave Dean there because he heard great things about Sonny and decided it would be the best place for Dean. In his own way, John made a good parental decision there.
quote name=”blushenka”]1. I didn’t like it (what I now call the ‘David Copperfield-episode’) enough to give it a second watch. I give it a 4. Sorry.
2. Yeah, that was OOC imo. Also, I am generally wary about jump-the-shark storylines that involve ‘major reveal in a main character’s life that somehow didn’t get addressed at all until an ungodly late season’. [The Adam storyline might have been like that, but it ended up playing an important part in the mythology, so I’m okay with it]. Also, I’m gonna rant a bit about how this episode promoted two things I find myself in disagreement of: I don’t see this episode fostering pop psych, either. JMHO.
Love, Robin
A. John Winchester was an abusive parent who cared nothing for Dean and was willing to let him rot in jail (???? seriously?) – for STEALING FOOD??? (how is that any worse from the credit card scams they’ve always done, hustling pool, etc? :/) And how does this tie in with him being overprotective of his sons and sacrificing his life for Dean at the end of S2?
And B. As a child, Dean sacrificed everything for Sam at the expense of his physical well being – ie starving himself so Sam could eat, etc. Don’t get me wrong, I love the brother’s codependency as much as anyone but this idea is a favourite among the people who think the Sam/Dean relationship is unhealthy and they both should grow out of it. It’s the same play that Carver has backed from the very start (Mystery Spot) and since he’s become a showrunner, it has and continues to be enforced. I must say this pop psychology approach in regard to Supernatural of all shows is kind of lame and it annoys me.
Sorry if I sound unduly harsh, but I guess that’s my opinion. *shrug*[/quote]
[Hi, Grace, my pleasure for rambling! I loved Dean’s girlfriend’s name, too! LOL!
I wanted Sonny to get Dean out of the job for just two more hours so he could take Robin to the dance! I’m sure the MOW could have waited two hours!
We know Sam will forgive Dean eventually, but how angry will he be this time? I am afraid to find out.
Love,
Robin
I only gave the ep an 8, so I wasn’t all that thrilled with it. But I’m liking it more after 3 watchings. . quote name=”Grace232″]Thanks for rambling, Robin.
1. I liked it too. I give it a 9.5
2. Since we now know Dean was supposed to be 14 in this episode, that makes more sense. He and Robin were sweet – and she had a great name!
3. Liked Sonny too. Yes, would have been OOC – since there was a job, Dean knew people needed to be saved, so he would not just go off to a dance
4. We have been told ghosts do not see shades of gray – threaten to whip her kid, yell at him – all bad. Plus, she was starting to go crazy, as all ghosts do eventually
5. My favorite part of the episode. Yes, there will be angst, but Sam will forgive him – after we all get our hearts beaten up for a while, of course.[/quote]
[Hi, Grace, my pleasure for rambling! I loved Dean’s girlfriend’s name, too! LOL!
I wanted Sonny to get Dean out of the job for just two more hours so he could take Robin to the dance! I’m sure the MOW could have waited two hours!
We know Sam will forgive Dean eventually, but how angry will he be this time? I am afraid to find out.
Love,
Robin
I only gave the ep an 8, so I wasn’t all that thrilled with it. But I’m liking it more after 3 watchings. . quote name=”Grace232″]Thanks for rambling, Robin.
1. I liked it too. I give it a 9.5
2. Since we now know Dean was supposed to be 14 in this episode, that makes more sense. He and Robin were sweet – and she had a great name!
3. Liked Sonny too. Yes, would have been OOC – since there was a job, Dean knew people needed to be saved, so he would not just go off to a dance
4. We have been told ghosts do not see shades of gray – threaten to whip her kid, yell at him – all bad. Plus, she was starting to go crazy, as all ghosts do eventually
5. My favorite part of the episode. Yes, there will be angst, but Sam will forgive him – after we all get our hearts beaten up for a while, of course.[/quote]
[I like him better after 3 viewings. He really did get Dean’s mannerisms down pretty well.
Ghost mom really creeped me out. I thought it was great when she turned pretty, just before she went into the light. I’m surprised Timmy wasn’t afraid of her, looking so gross the way she did.
Love,
Robin
quote name=”jarielynn”]1. 10- He was perfect. Dylan got all Deans mannerism down, and his sarcastic wit. lol.
2. Yeah, I thought this was weird too, because in a previous epi he was super stud at age 17. However I then reasoned that this relationship with Robin may have been what made him go with the whole “Girls only good for sex” thing. He realized he couldn’t really have a real relationship with anyone. 🙁
3. I liked Sonny, too. I wish he could have clocked John a good one.
4. Ghosts start to take things the wrong way after they hang around awhile and they get angry. So anyone she would see yelling at her son would piss her off. Kind of like with Bobby and how he changed as a ghost and became really angry and was even mean to the boys. Ghosts have no reasoning powers left. She made me sad really, poor kid lost his mom.
5. End of the show made the whole episode for me. Starting where young Dean is looking out the window at Sam, to Sam realizing why Dean didn’t stay there. I had tears.
5.[/quote]
[I like him better after 3 viewings. He really did get Dean’s mannerisms down pretty well.
Ghost mom really creeped me out. I thought it was great when she turned pretty, just before she went into the light. I’m surprised Timmy wasn’t afraid of her, looking so gross the way she did.
Love,
Robin
quote name=”jarielynn”]1. 10- He was perfect. Dylan got all Deans mannerism down, and his sarcastic wit. lol.
2. Yeah, I thought this was weird too, because in a previous epi he was super stud at age 17. However I then reasoned that this relationship with Robin may have been what made him go with the whole “Girls only good for sex” thing. He realized he couldn’t really have a real relationship with anyone. 🙁
3. I liked Sonny, too. I wish he could have clocked John a good one.
4. Ghosts start to take things the wrong way after they hang around awhile and they get angry. So anyone she would see yelling at her son would piss her off. Kind of like with Bobby and how he changed as a ghost and became really angry and was even mean to the boys. Ghosts have no reasoning powers left. She made me sad really, poor kid lost his mom.
5. End of the show made the whole episode for me. Starting where young Dean is looking out the window at Sam, to Sam realizing why Dean didn’t stay there. I had tears.
5.[/quote]
[The kid playing Dean didn’t really resemble him, but that doesn’t bother me. He did a pretty good job with the role.
Jensen got suspended on the first day of school for kissing a girl? Sounds very Dean-like to me, LOL!
I loved Sonny and the actor who played him, although the resemblance to Sonny Bono bugged me. I wonder if that’s why they called him Sonny?
I hope Timmy has a good life from now on with Sonny. He should be OK with his crazy ghost mom gone. Too bad Dean couldn’t adopt him.
Love, Robin
quote name=”novi”]1 – 7. The boy was good in delivering sweet part of Dean’s nature but to take him for Dean I should have taken off my glasses.
2 – No way. Jensen once told that he had kissed a girl at his first day at school – and got immediately suspended. Dean couldn’t be much slower. And with all that moving around he couldn’t hope for long relations anyway.
3 – Sonny was great, so was the actor.
4 – the ghost was insane. Sad story. Timmy looked so lonely and lost in the ending scene, the poor kid.
5 – there should be a big question mark.[/quote]
[The kid playing Dean didn’t really resemble him, but that doesn’t bother me. He did a pretty good job with the role.
Jensen got suspended on the first day of school for kissing a girl? Sounds very Dean-like to me, LOL!
I loved Sonny and the actor who played him, although the resemblance to Sonny Bono bugged me. I wonder if that’s why they called him Sonny?
I hope Timmy has a good life from now on with Sonny. He should be OK with his crazy ghost mom gone. Too bad Dean couldn’t adopt him.
Love, Robin
quote name=”novi”]1 – 7. The boy was good in delivering sweet part of Dean’s nature but to take him for Dean I should have taken off my glasses.
2 – No way. Jensen once told that he had kissed a girl at his first day at school – and got immediately suspended. Dean couldn’t be much slower. And with all that moving around he couldn’t hope for long relations anyway.
3 – Sonny was great, so was the actor.
4 – the ghost was insane. Sad story. Timmy looked so lonely and lost in the ending scene, the poor kid.
5 – there should be a big question mark.[/quote]
[quote name=”blushenka”] Yeah, that was OOC imo. Also, I am generally wary about jump-the-shark storylines that involve ‘major reveal in a main character’s life that somehow didn’t get addressed at all until an ungodly late season’
[/quote]
I agree blushenka… this is exactly my problem too. This big reveal that Dean had always secretly hated the hunting life and wanted out of it so much that he was considering staying with, even WANTED to stay with Sonny is a real problem for me. It flies in the face of the Dean that started the series: Dean the rowdy snarky, loyal man who LOVED HUNTING, loved the family business, was committed to his father and believed in the family quest to hunt down and kill the demon that killed his mother. The Dean of the early seasons believed in all of that, and now, in season 9 we find that that was all a lie? That he was faking it? It undermines the foundation of what set up the series IMO.
If Dean really wanted out, wanted normal (wasn’t that SAM’S storyline?) then how could Dean have been so strongly set against Sam going to Stanford then? Wasn’t that his own secret desire? His brother is not worthy of such a thing? If we accept what we saw in this episode (Dean loving Sam more than anything, Dean wanting normal more than anything) then how could he have sided with John against Sam so strongly about going to college, having a normal and safe life, wanting to be his own man and make is own decisions? Isn’t that what we discovered that Dean wanted as well.. so why would he begrudge Sam wanting the same thing? Was it merely petty jealousy because Sam had the courage to try for his idea of normal and Dean didn’t? Since Dean made a decision to stick with the family business, and because he realized that he wasn’t ever going to have normal, then Sam shouldn’t get to have it either? To me, the whole “reveal” didn’t shed light on Dean and his motivations, it just created problems and inconsistencies regarding his previously established character that I found distinctly unflattering. I will be disregarding this “reveal” so that I can think of Dean as the grown up version of the brash, dedicated, hunter-loving young man that we saw at the start of the series. He may have grown to be somewhat weathered and jaded over time through all that he has suffered, but he didn’t start out that way and deep down he still has that joy of hunting and optimism that made him so endearing in those early years.
[quote] Yeah, that was OOC imo. Also, I am generally wary about jump-the-shark storylines that involve ‘major reveal in a main character’s life that somehow didn’t get addressed at all until an ungodly late season’
[/quote]
I agree blushenka… this is exactly my problem too. This big reveal that Dean had always secretly hated the hunting life and wanted out of it so much that he was considering staying with, even WANTED to stay with Sonny is a real problem for me. It flies in the face of the Dean that started the series: Dean the rowdy snarky, loyal man who LOVED HUNTING, loved the family business, was committed to his father and believed in the family quest to hunt down and kill the demon that killed his mother. The Dean of the early seasons believed in all of that, and now, in season 9 we find that that was all a lie? That he was faking it? It undermines the foundation of what set up the series IMO.
If Dean really wanted out, wanted normal (wasn’t that SAM’S storyline?) then how could Dean have been so strongly set against Sam going to Stanford then? Wasn’t that his own secret desire? His brother is not worthy of such a thing? If we accept what we saw in this episode (Dean loving Sam more than anything, Dean wanting normal more than anything) then how could he have sided with John against Sam so strongly about going to college, having a normal and safe life, wanting to be his own man and make is own decisions? Isn’t that what we discovered that Dean wanted as well.. so why would he begrudge Sam wanting the same thing? Was it merely petty jealousy because Sam had the courage to try for his idea of normal and Dean didn’t? Since Dean made a decision to stick with the family business, and because he realized that he wasn’t ever going to have normal, then Sam shouldn’t get to have it either? To me, the whole “reveal” didn’t shed light on Dean and his motivations, it just created problems and inconsistencies regarding his previously established character that I found distinctly unflattering. I will be disregarding this “reveal” so that I can think of Dean as the grown up version of the brash, dedicated, hunter-loving young man that we saw at the start of the series. He may have grown to be somewhat weathered and jaded over time through all that he has suffered, but he didn’t start out that way and deep down he still has that joy of hunting and optimism that made him so endearing in those early years.
[quote name=”E”][quote name=”blushenka”] Yeah, that was OOC imo. Also, I am generally wary about jump-the-shark storylines that involve ‘major reveal in a main character’s life that somehow didn’t get addressed at all until an ungodly late season’
[/quote]
I agree blushenka… this is exactly my problem too. This big reveal that Dean had always secretly hated the hunting life and wanted out of it so much that he was considering staying with, even WANTED to stay with Sonny is a real problem for me. It flies in the face of the Dean that started the series: Dean the rowdy snarky, loyal man who LOVED HUNTING, loved the family business, was committed to his father and believed in the family quest to hunt down and kill the demon that killed his mother. The Dean of the early seasons believed in all of that, and now, in season 9 we find that that was all a lie? That he was faking it? It undermines the foundation of what set up the series IMO.
If Dean really wanted out, wanted normal (wasn’t that SAM’S storyline?) then how could Dean have been so strongly set against Sam going to Stanford then? Wasn’t that his own secret desire? His brother is not worthy of such a thing? If we accept what we saw in this episode (Dean loving Sam more than anything, Dean wanting normal more than anything) then how could he have sided with John against Sam so strongly about going to college, having a normal and safe life, wanting to be his own man and make is own decisions? Isn’t that what we discovered that Dean wanted as well.. so why would he begrudge Sam wanting the same thing? Was it merely petty jealousy because Sam had the courage to try for his idea of normal and Dean didn’t? Since Dean made a decision to stick with the family business, and because he realized that he wasn’t ever going to have normal, then Sam shouldn’t get to have it either? To me, the whole “reveal” didn’t shed light on Dean and his motivations, it just created problems and inconsistencies regarding his previously established character that I found distinctly unflattering. I will be disregarding this “reveal” so that I can think of Dean as the grown up version of the brash, dedicated, hunter-loving young man that we saw at the start of the series. He may have grown to be somewhat weathered and jaded over time through all that he has suffered, but he didn’t start out that way and deep down he still has that joy of hunting and optimism that made him so endearing in those early years.[/quote]
Unfortunately the real message here is that when DEAN wants normal coming back to the life is a huge sacrifice and he should be admired and we should feel his loss. When Sam wants normal he is repeatedly called selfish. When Dean comes back from Purgatory and Sam gives up his dreams of normal to help close Hell, it is simply what he OWES Dean. When Sam states that he is ready to die, he can’t be permitted to do that because it isn’t what Dean wants, and Dean is the one who gets to say how and by who Sam’s body can be used.
The double standard truly bothers me. If Dean wants something it is right and just, if Sam wants the EXACT SAME THING he is bad, selfish and undeserving.
[quote][quote] Yeah, that was OOC imo. Also, I am generally wary about jump-the-shark storylines that involve ‘major reveal in a main character’s life that somehow didn’t get addressed at all until an ungodly late season’
[/quote]
I agree blushenka… this is exactly my problem too. This big reveal that Dean had always secretly hated the hunting life and wanted out of it so much that he was considering staying with, even WANTED to stay with Sonny is a real problem for me. It flies in the face of the Dean that started the series: Dean the rowdy snarky, loyal man who LOVED HUNTING, loved the family business, was committed to his father and believed in the family quest to hunt down and kill the demon that killed his mother. The Dean of the early seasons believed in all of that, and now, in season 9 we find that that was all a lie? That he was faking it? It undermines the foundation of what set up the series IMO.
If Dean really wanted out, wanted normal (wasn’t that SAM’S storyline?) then how could Dean have been so strongly set against Sam going to Stanford then? Wasn’t that his own secret desire? His brother is not worthy of such a thing? If we accept what we saw in this episode (Dean loving Sam more than anything, Dean wanting normal more than anything) then how could he have sided with John against Sam so strongly about going to college, having a normal and safe life, wanting to be his own man and make is own decisions? Isn’t that what we discovered that Dean wanted as well.. so why would he begrudge Sam wanting the same thing? Was it merely petty jealousy because Sam had the courage to try for his idea of normal and Dean didn’t? Since Dean made a decision to stick with the family business, and because he realized that he wasn’t ever going to have normal, then Sam shouldn’t get to have it either? To me, the whole “reveal” didn’t shed light on Dean and his motivations, it just created problems and inconsistencies regarding his previously established character that I found distinctly unflattering. I will be disregarding this “reveal” so that I can think of Dean as the grown up version of the brash, dedicated, hunter-loving young man that we saw at the start of the series. He may have grown to be somewhat weathered and jaded over time through all that he has suffered, but he didn’t start out that way and deep down he still has that joy of hunting and optimism that made him so endearing in those early years.[/quote]
Unfortunately the real message here is that when DEAN wants normal coming back to the life is a huge sacrifice and he should be admired and we should feel his loss. When Sam wants normal he is repeatedly called selfish. When Dean comes back from Purgatory and Sam gives up his dreams of normal to help close Hell, it is simply what he OWES Dean. When Sam states that he is ready to die, he can’t be permitted to do that because it isn’t what Dean wants, and Dean is the one who gets to say how and by who Sam’s body can be used.
The double standard truly bothers me. If Dean wants something it is right and just, if Sam wants the EXACT SAME THING he is bad, selfish and undeserving.
I don’t think the big reveal was that Dean secretly always hated the hunting life but had a time in his life when he got a glimpse of normal and it was a reminder of what he lost. Also a time when huge responsibilities were not heaped on him. I have never gotten the impression that Dean was gung ho about the hunting life when they were young. This might have been the moment, when he saw his brother and dad, that he realized he was destined to be a hunter and committed himself to it 100%.
I don’t see it as a double standard. He committed himself to his family and hunting and Sam left, not so many years later. It must have hurt Dean and he acted that way when he saw Sam again. He wanted them to be a family again. Keeping the family together was his priority by then. At the end of the pilot he dropped Sam off to have his normal, reluctantly but he did! In the episode What Is And Should Never Be, Dean LOVED that Sam had normal and happiness. The only thing that bothered him in that “reality” was that he and Sam were not close. In general I believe Dean did not think Sam was bad,undeserving, and selfish because he wanted normal. He called him selfish sometimes but it was more about wanting his brother by his side than thinking he was bad and undeserving! I have also always felt that Dean did not think normal was ever going to be in the cards for them. I further have always felt that Dean secretly wished for normal too (for them both) but would deny it completely if asked. Dean is about family first and Sam is family/home to Dean.
As for this episode I do not agree it is a manipulation to make Sam look bad when he has a bad reaction to the possession and lies! I think it was just a reminder of the bond of the brothers. Not a manipulation to illustrate that Dean has done so much for Sam that he shouldn’t be held accountable. I do not believe for a second that was what the writers were intending. It is more about the warm and fuzzies before they kick us in the gut. I believe Sam has good reason to be pissed at Dean and will be justified in his reaction. Whether it be hurt, anger or both!! I don’t believe the intention is to make Sam look selfish or bad for feeling that way.
I don’t think the big reveal was that Dean secretly always hated the hunting life but had a time in his life when he got a glimpse of normal and it was a reminder of what he lost. Also a time when huge responsibilities were not heaped on him. I have never gotten the impression that Dean was gung ho about the hunting life when they were young. This might have been the moment, when he saw his brother and dad, that he realized he was destined to be a hunter and committed himself to it 100%.
I don’t see it as a double standard. He committed himself to his family and hunting and Sam left, not so many years later. It must have hurt Dean and he acted that way when he saw Sam again. He wanted them to be a family again. Keeping the family together was his priority by then. At the end of the pilot he dropped Sam off to have his normal, reluctantly but he did! In the episode What Is And Should Never Be, Dean LOVED that Sam had normal and happiness. The only thing that bothered him in that “reality” was that he and Sam were not close. In general I believe Dean did not think Sam was bad,undeserving, and selfish because he wanted normal. He called him selfish sometimes but it was more about wanting his brother by his side than thinking he was bad and undeserving! I have also always felt that Dean did not think normal was ever going to be in the cards for them. I further have always felt that Dean secretly wished for normal too (for them both) but would deny it completely if asked. Dean is about family first and Sam is family/home to Dean.
As for this episode I do not agree it is a manipulation to make Sam look bad when he has a bad reaction to the possession and lies! I think it was just a reminder of the bond of the brothers. Not a manipulation to illustrate that Dean has done so much for Sam that he shouldn’t be held accountable. I do not believe for a second that was what the writers were intending. It is more about the warm and fuzzies before they kick us in the gut. I believe Sam has good reason to be pissed at Dean and will be justified in his reaction. Whether it be hurt, anger or both!! I don’t believe the intention is to make Sam look selfish or bad for feeling that way.
hi lead d,
my problem with this episode and the season so far is that as far as the brother’s bond goes, we’ve only been shown what Dean has done for Sam, what Dean has sacrificed for Sam and how much Dean loves Sam. What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do? We have no idea, because the PTB don’t seem inclined to show us that side of things. We know that Sam is grateful from this last episode (which is not new information, Sam has ALWAYS been grateful for what Dean has been willing to do for him), but the whole other side of this brother equation is missing. I believe that Sam loves Dean just as much, is willing to sacrifice just as much, but it’s never SHOWN. Their relationship ends up looking more one sided, so when conflict arises between them its too easy to side with the brother that we understand better and know more about; and this episode was positively raining anvils of the ‘Dean has sacrificed all for his brother’ variety. Would it have been so hard to show a young Sam worrying for his brother and wondering what was going on with him? Would it have been so tough to add in one small 30 second scene at the end of the episode that showed young Sam being happy and relieved to see his brother again after two long months apart?
hi lead d,
my problem with this episode and the season so far is that as far as the brother’s bond goes, we’ve only been shown what Dean has done for Sam, what Dean has sacrificed for Sam and how much Dean loves Sam. What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do? We have no idea, because the PTB don’t seem inclined to show us that side of things. We know that Sam is grateful from this last episode (which is not new information, Sam has ALWAYS been grateful for what Dean has been willing to do for him), but the whole other side of this brother equation is missing. I believe that Sam loves Dean just as much, is willing to sacrifice just as much, but it’s never SHOWN. Their relationship ends up looking more one sided, so when conflict arises between them its too easy to side with the brother that we understand better and know more about; and this episode was positively raining anvils of the ‘Dean has sacrificed all for his brother’ variety. Would it have been so hard to show a young Sam worrying for his brother and wondering what was going on with him? Would it have been so tough to add in one small 30 second scene at the end of the episode that showed young Sam being happy and relieved to see his brother again after two long months apart?
It is my sincerest hope that next weeks episode will include a frantic Sam doing everything in his power to locate his missing brother at all costs, just to help balance things out a bit.
It is my sincerest hope that next weeks episode will include a frantic Sam doing everything in his power to locate his missing brother at all costs, just to help balance things out a bit.
[quote name=”E”]hi lead d,
my problem with this episode and the season so far is that as far as the brother’s bond goes, we’ve only been shown what Dean has done for Sam, what Dean has sacrificed for Sam and how much Dean loves Sam. What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do? We have no idea, because the PTB don’t seem inclined to show us that side of things. We know that Sam is grateful from this last episode (which is not new information, Sam has ALWAYS been grateful for what Dean has been willing to do for him), but the whole other side of this brother equation is missing. I believe that Sam loves Dean just as much, is willing to sacrifice just as much, but it’s never SHOWN. Their relationship ends up looking more one sided, so when conflict arises between them its too easy to side with the brother that we understand better and know more about; and this episode was positively raining anvils of the ‘Dean has sacrificed all for his brother’ variety. Would it have been so hard to show a young Sam worrying for his brother and wondering what was going on with him? Would it have been so tough to add in one small 30 second scene at the end of the episode that showed young Sam being happy and relieved to see his brother again after two long months apart?[/quote]
No it would not of been …. but then that was not what the episode was about. It was a Dean episode , designed for Dean . The problem with the ‘brothers’ relationship is it only reflects one brother is what makes it hard for me to fully embrace it at the moment.
[quote]hi lead d,
my problem with this episode and the season so far is that as far as the brother’s bond goes, we’ve only been shown what Dean has done for Sam, what Dean has sacrificed for Sam and how much Dean loves Sam. What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do? We have no idea, because the PTB don’t seem inclined to show us that side of things. We know that Sam is grateful from this last episode (which is not new information, Sam has ALWAYS been grateful for what Dean has been willing to do for him), but the whole other side of this brother equation is missing. I believe that Sam loves Dean just as much, is willing to sacrifice just as much, but it’s never SHOWN. Their relationship ends up looking more one sided, so when conflict arises between them its too easy to side with the brother that we understand better and know more about; and this episode was positively raining anvils of the ‘Dean has sacrificed all for his brother’ variety. Would it have been so hard to show a young Sam worrying for his brother and wondering what was going on with him? Would it have been so tough to add in one small 30 second scene at the end of the episode that showed young Sam being happy and relieved to see his brother again after two long months apart?[/quote]
No it would not of been …. but then that was not what the episode was about. It was a Dean episode , designed for Dean . The problem with the ‘brothers’ relationship is it only reflects one brother is what makes it hard for me to fully embrace it at the moment.
#20 E, hi, I have no problem with and actually agree with those particular arguments. Even though I know how Sam feels about and how much he has and would sacrifice for Dean I can agree that it could have been made clearer in this episode and in the past. I have always felt they were equally devoted to each other, though. For me it was always clear. 🙂
#20 E, hi, I have no problem with and actually agree with those particular arguments. Even though I know how Sam feels about and how much he has and would sacrifice for Dean I can agree that it could have been made clearer in this episode and in the past. I have always felt they were equally devoted to each other, though. For me it was always clear. 🙂
[quote name=”E”] What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do? [/quote]
How about do the trials in Dean’s place to make sure Dean won’t kamikase himself and be willing to die and give up his hope for a normal life only to not disappoint his brother? Seems a pretty major Sacrifice (not a coincidence in the title of the episode) to me.
[quote] What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do? [/quote]
How about do the trials in Dean’s place to make sure Dean won’t kamikase himself and be willing to die and give up his hope for a normal life only to not disappoint his brother? Seems a pretty major Sacrifice (not a coincidence in the title of the episode) to me.
[quote name=”Ale”][quote name=”E”] What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do? [/quote]
How about do the trials in Dean’s place to make sure Dean won’t kamikase himself and be willing to die and give up his hope for a normal life only to not disappoint his brother? Seems a pretty major Sacrifice (not a coincidence in the title of the episode) to me.[/quote]
Oh, I forgot: his hope for a normal life and his LIFE altogether. Sorry I forgot this minor detail.
[quote][quote] What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do? [/quote]
How about do the trials in Dean’s place to make sure Dean won’t kamikase himself and be willing to die and give up his hope for a normal life only to not disappoint his brother? Seems a pretty major Sacrifice (not a coincidence in the title of the episode) to me.[/quote]
Oh, I forgot: his hope for a normal life and his LIFE altogether. Sorry I forgot this minor detail.
1. On first watching, I wasn’t thrilled with this episode. This teen Dean seemed wrong to me. On second viewing, I liked it more. I give it an 8. You?
I loved it. I always wanted to see more flashbacks of the brothers when they were young, before the pilot episode. Not surprised at all by Dean stealing to feed Sam. I think he would do anything to keep his baby brother from going hungry. Hope to see more young Winchesters in the future. Forget the mytharc, this is my kind of episode. Give it a 9.5.
2. So, Dean got his first kiss at 16. I always figured Dean was an earlier starter in the romance arena. What did you think of his romance with Robin?
I would think he started a few years earlier than 16. But then, he could have been 14 in the episode, as really, after the years pass how many of us remember exactly how old we were when memorable events happened to us? I know I don’t. My heart bled for him when he had to leave just before the dance.
3. I liked Sonny. I thought he was very good for Dean, a positive role model. I found myself wishing Dean had told Sonny to tell John to drive around for two hours so he could go to that dance. But it would have been OOC for Dean. What did you think of Sonny?
Sonny was perfect for running a boys’ home, and I thought he was wonderful with young Dean.
4. The ghost seemed kind of stupid. Didn’t she understand these people were merely disciplinary figures in her son’s life? Why did she kill those two people? I can understand harming the bully, but Ruth and Jack, not really.
Who knows the psychology of ghosts? 😛
5. I loved the last exchange between Sam and Dean. I hope Sam remembers it when he learns about Zeke. Because Zeke is the ultimate in having Sam’s back.
You and me both, Robin! 🙂
1. On first watching, I wasn’t thrilled with this episode. This teen Dean seemed wrong to me. On second viewing, I liked it more. I give it an 8. You?
I loved it. I always wanted to see more flashbacks of the brothers when they were young, before the pilot episode. Not surprised at all by Dean stealing to feed Sam. I think he would do anything to keep his baby brother from going hungry. Hope to see more young Winchesters in the future. Forget the mytharc, this is my kind of episode. Give it a 9.5.
2. So, Dean got his first kiss at 16. I always figured Dean was an earlier starter in the romance arena. What did you think of his romance with Robin?
I would think he started a few years earlier than 16. But then, he could have been 14 in the episode, as really, after the years pass how many of us remember exactly how old we were when memorable events happened to us? I know I don’t. My heart bled for him when he had to leave just before the dance.
3. I liked Sonny. I thought he was very good for Dean, a positive role model. I found myself wishing Dean had told Sonny to tell John to drive around for two hours so he could go to that dance. But it would have been OOC for Dean. What did you think of Sonny?
Sonny was perfect for running a boys’ home, and I thought he was wonderful with young Dean.
4. The ghost seemed kind of stupid. Didn’t she understand these people were merely disciplinary figures in her son’s life? Why did she kill those two people? I can understand harming the bully, but Ruth and Jack, not really.
Who knows the psychology of ghosts? 😛
5. I loved the last exchange between Sam and Dean. I hope Sam remembers it when he learns about Zeke. Because Zeke is the ultimate in having Sam’s back.
You and me both, Robin! 🙂
If Sam was shown as such an awful selfish bastard, here is how Trial and Error should have gone:
Sam: “So, Dean, you’re are a hunter, you want to live like a hunter and die like a hunter with a big bang. I want to live a normal life and for that I need to make sure all the demons are off my back forever. It’s a deal. Go ahead and do the trials. I’ll be at home with Amelia. Have someone call me to give me thumbs up when it’s done.”
If Sam was shown as such an awful selfish bastard, here is how Trial and Error should have gone:
Sam: “So, Dean, you’re are a hunter, you want to live like a hunter and die like a hunter with a big bang. I want to live a normal life and for that I need to make sure all the demons are off my back forever. It’s a deal. Go ahead and do the trials. I’ll be at home with Amelia. Have someone call me to give me thumbs up when it’s done.”
In reply to NOLANOLA and robinv
Hey , NOLANOLA, hope you get better soon please do!
I try my very best not to mix Dean and Jensen, but what to say – they look so alike:-)
Hey, robinv, thank you for the reply! Always so nice to get feedback.
By the way, I’ve noticed something – women- commentors tend to be harsher on the episode than
men. I’ve read some reviews signed by obviously male names, and all of them sound positive. Was there something in the epi with which mostly men can relate? Stern fathers, teen rebellion, something like that? Or are men more sentimental? Or was the episode not sentimental at all, and it is just me being over-demanding? After all, my final mark is still steady – 7,
that is B-, I suppose.
In reply to NOLANOLA and robinv
Hey , NOLANOLA, hope you get better soon please do!
I try my very best not to mix Dean and Jensen, but what to say – they look so alike:-)
Hey, robinv, thank you for the reply! Always so nice to get feedback.
By the way, I’ve noticed something – women- commentors tend to be harsher on the episode than
men. I’ve read some reviews signed by obviously male names, and all of them sound positive. Was there something in the epi with which mostly men can relate? Stern fathers, teen rebellion, something like that? Or are men more sentimental? Or was the episode not sentimental at all, and it is just me being over-demanding? After all, my final mark is still steady – 7,
that is B-, I suppose.
I really hope this episode does not factor in when sam learns about zeke.
I really hope this episode does not factor in when sam learns about zeke.
“This big reveal that Dean had always secretly hated the hunting life and wanted out of it so much that he was considering staying with, even WANTED to stay with Sonny is a real problem for me.”
Since the writer really wrote him as being 14, I didn’t see a problem. It was when he was 16 and killed the werewolf that he really committed to the hunting life. Up to that point, I think he was just going with the program and exploring whatever came along.
I wish that TPTB, if they are going to change the details in a storyline, they would think it all the way through. 14 year old Dean and 9-10 year old Sammy fits much better here. And Dylan can easily pass for 14.
“This big reveal that Dean had always secretly hated the hunting life and wanted out of it so much that he was considering staying with, even WANTED to stay with Sonny is a real problem for me.”
Since the writer really wrote him as being 14, I didn’t see a problem. It was when he was 16 and killed the werewolf that he really committed to the hunting life. Up to that point, I think he was just going with the program and exploring whatever came along.
I wish that TPTB, if they are going to change the details in a storyline, they would think it all the way through. 14 year old Dean and 9-10 year old Sammy fits much better here. And Dylan can easily pass for 14.
Ooooh! Another “epiphany” moment. Fortunately for all concerned, my would-be post exceeded the size limit {sheepish grin}. Suffice it to say… I had posted a comment elsewhere, yesterday, that I deleted down to almost nothing since I lost some confidence in it. And now… I’ve TOTALLY regained that confidence! But I’ll shorthand it by saying… I agree {WEG} that Dean’s appropriate age here isn’t 16. Except I’d adjust it up, not down and chalk Sammy looking too young, relatively speaking, to “production issues.”
Every culture has its yada-yada lore. 😀
This werewolf encounter, the one Sam wrote about in Afterschool Special, and what sounded like the “life-changing” 1st big monster kill story Dean told Gordon Walker (rite of passage / coming of age)… they ALL describe the same werewolf encounter. Really pretty sure!
And I think it may speak volumes about just how much did [i]or did not[/i] get dumped on John’s kids at too early an age.
[I’m sure it will. And with Zeke’s equally frantic assistance, I bet. Jody and Sam will make quite a formidable team. Love, Robin
quote name=”E”]It is my sincerest hope that next weeks episode will include a frantic Sam doing everything in his power to locate his missing brother at all costs, just to help balance things out a bit.[/quote]
[I’m sure it will. And with Zeke’s equally frantic assistance, I bet. Jody and Sam will make quite a formidable team. Love, Robin
quote name=”E”]It is my sincerest hope that next weeks episode will include a frantic Sam doing everything in his power to locate his missing brother at all costs, just to help balance things out a bit.[/quote]
Well, so far, the writers are concentrating on Dean’s POV, right? Sam was all set to give up his life to save Dean and the entire world in the last ep of season 8, but Dean wouldn’t let his little brother sacrifice his life because he can’t live without him (there we go again, on that same merry-go-round that Dean can’t get himself off), because Dean isn’t willing to live his life alone. And yet Sam was ready to let go, wasn’t he? Ready to leave Dean behind? Ready to be finally at peace? What’s up with all that? Love, Robin
my problem with this episode and the season so far is that as far as the brother’s bond goes, we’ve only been shown what Dean has done for Sam, what Dean has sacrificed for Sam and how much Dean loves Sam. What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do?
Well, so far, the writers are concentrating on Dean’s POV, right? Sam was all set to give up his life to save Dean and the entire world in the last ep of season 8, but Dean wouldn’t let his little brother sacrifice his life because he can’t live without him (there we go again, on that same merry-go-round that Dean can’t get himself off), because Dean isn’t willing to live his life alone. And yet Sam was ready to let go, wasn’t he? Ready to leave Dean behind? Ready to be finally at peace? What’s up with all that? Love, Robin
my problem with this episode and the season so far is that as far as the brother’s bond goes, we’ve only been shown what Dean has done for Sam, what Dean has sacrificed for Sam and how much Dean loves Sam. What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do?
THANK YOU! Sam and Dean ARE equally devoted to each other, and if it hasn’t been made clear, it’s the fault of the writers for not making it so. The very fact that Sam took the trials on himself and wouldn’t let his brother do them speaks volumes for how he feels about his brother. I suspect that, deep down, Sam suspected that doing the trials would kill him, which is why, when Dean told him that in the church, Sam said “SO???” He was ready to die, not just for ridding the world of all the demons, but finally having the peace of death–and giving Dean a shot at a normal life. Love, Robin
hi, I have no problem with and actually agree with those particular arguments. Even though I know how Sam feels about and how much he has and would sacrifice for Dean I can agree that it could have been made clearer in this episode and in the past. I have always felt they were equally devoted to each other, though. For me it was always clear. 🙂
THANK YOU! Sam and Dean ARE equally devoted to each other, and if it hasn’t been made clear, it’s the fault of the writers for not making it so. The very fact that Sam took the trials on himself and wouldn’t let his brother do them speaks volumes for how he feels about his brother. I suspect that, deep down, Sam suspected that doing the trials would kill him, which is why, when Dean told him that in the church, Sam said “SO???” He was ready to die, not just for ridding the world of all the demons, but finally having the peace of death–and giving Dean a shot at a normal life. Love, Robin
hi, I have no problem with and actually agree with those particular arguments. Even though I know how Sam feels about and how much he has and would sacrifice for Dean I can agree that it could have been made clearer in this episode and in the past. I have always felt they were equally devoted to each other, though. For me it was always clear. 🙂
[quote name=”Ale”][quote name=”E”] What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do? [/quote]
How about do the trials in Dean’s place to make sure Dean won’t kamikase himself and be willing to die and give up his hope for a normal life only to not disappoint his brother? Seems a pretty major Sacrifice (not a coincidence in the title of the episode) to me.[/quote]
That may have been a sacrifice as far as Sam was concerned, but Dean didn’t see it that way at all. He hated that Sam was doing the trials and basically spent the whole second half of season 8 trying to get Sam out of it. So, for Dean, it wasn’t much of a sacrifice at all.
[quote][quote] What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do? [/quote]
How about do the trials in Dean’s place to make sure Dean won’t kamikase himself and be willing to die and give up his hope for a normal life only to not disappoint his brother? Seems a pretty major Sacrifice (not a coincidence in the title of the episode) to me.[/quote]
That may have been a sacrifice as far as Sam was concerned, but Dean didn’t see it that way at all. He hated that Sam was doing the trials and basically spent the whole second half of season 8 trying to get Sam out of it. So, for Dean, it wasn’t much of a sacrifice at all.
[quote name=”E”][quote name=”Ale”][quote name=”E”] What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do? [/quote]
How about do the trials in Dean’s place to make sure Dean won’t kamikase himself and be willing to die and give up his hope for a normal life only to not disappoint his brother? Seems a pretty major Sacrifice (not a coincidence in the title of the episode) to me.[/quote]
That may have been a sacrifice as far as Sam was concerned, but Dean didn’t see it that way at all. He hated that Sam was doing the trials and basically spent the whole second half of season 8 trying to get Sam out of it. So, for Dean, it wasn’t much of a sacrifice at all.[/quote]
Of course Dean didn’t like it – who would be pleased to see a loved one in pain, suffering???!!! He was CONCERNED about his brother well being, and yet, he was there, supporting Sam’s decision all the way, showing Faith in him and love.
That is what I saw. I’m curious, what did you see?
[quote][quote][quote] What has Sam been shown to sacrifice? What is Sam willing to do? [/quote]
How about do the trials in Dean’s place to make sure Dean won’t kamikase himself and be willing to die and give up his hope for a normal life only to not disappoint his brother? Seems a pretty major Sacrifice (not a coincidence in the title of the episode) to me.[/quote]
That may have been a sacrifice as far as Sam was concerned, but Dean didn’t see it that way at all. He hated that Sam was doing the trials and basically spent the whole second half of season 8 trying to get Sam out of it. So, for Dean, it wasn’t much of a sacrifice at all.[/quote]
Of course Dean didn’t like it – who would be pleased to see a loved one in pain, suffering???!!! He was CONCERNED about his brother well being, and yet, he was there, supporting Sam’s decision all the way, showing Faith in him and love.
That is what I saw. I’m curious, what did you see?