Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 8.14, “Trial and Error”

336 Comments

1. How can anyone go to bed after watching this episode? I am so glad you put a review together so fast. I can’t believe how many others are already online also. All glowing of course. I had finally stopped crying and then I read your transcript of those two beautiful declarations by the boys. The tears started all over again. Between the two speeches and Dean’s picture of Mary I am a wreck!!!! I have GOT to get a life! 🙂 JK, I have one, but you know what I mean. I keep wondering how a TV show did this to me? This must be how a drug addict feels.

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   1. Glad I’m not the only one who is so addicted to this show. I just can’t figure out why there aren’t more “entertainment power people” who realize what great writers are on this show and especially how great the 2 main actors are. If this show was on a “major” network channel or a major cable channel, both writers and Jensen & Jared would have Emmys.

      Reply

      1. [quote]Glad I’m not the only one who is so addicted to this show. I just can’t figure out why there aren’t more “entertainment power people” who realize what great writers are on this show and especially how great the 2 main actors are. If this show was on a “major” network channel or a major cable channel, both writers and Jensen & Jared would have Emmys.[/quote]
         If it were on a standard network the script would be so dull and the language so bland and the action so controlled, it would not be SPN nor have lasted but I agree that actors are not recognized by mainstream establishment enough although it may be different with the talent agencies that handle them. They seem like decent guys who take nothing for granted.

         Reply

2. I loved this episode. I LOVED Sam’s speech to Dean. Why? Sam’s speech was HOPEFUL. Dean has given his speech before and it always makes me sad. He still thinks his worth is in dying, sacrificing himself. SIGH. He also is used to getting his own way as the “Older Brother”. You can tell that Dean still feels that he gets to tell Sam what to do. Like Sam is still a little kid who needs protecting. Or perhaps it is more that Dean, through looking after Sam for his whole life, treats him like a parent would and just expects Sam to do as he’s told. Like Dean is stuck in that mode, you know?

   Dean’s room and him cooking burgers, really good burgers, just make me smile like crazy. And Sam taking his with him. I feel all warm and fuzzy just thinking about it.

   The whole deal with Crowley seems suspicious to me, but the date….I’m over worrying about the date. For me, it’s like my loved ones leaving the dirty socks on the floor. Not a deal breaker. I’ve let it go. 🙂

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3. Great review! And so quick! So much love for this episode. I too had a couple of nitpicks, but I absolutely loved this episode, though I will admit that that is based almost solely on the brother scenes. Not that I thought the rest of it was bad but those scenes were so great that they completely overshadowed the rest.

   First, loved Dean nesting(I didn’t think about the pregnancy but I bet it was a ref to that), so happy to have his own room. In fact I’m just so happy to see him so happy. It has been so long since he was fairly consistently happy, perhaps the first season. Though I think that’s going to be tested here pretty soon, but I’ll take happy Dean when I can get him. And Sam looking around Dean’s room and smiling for him was so sweet.

   But both those speeches they gave almost killed me. That is the heart I was missing a good portion of last season. Dean just being happy with the idea that only Sam survives into the distant future and him imagining his brother with fat and happy with grandkids is both completely heartbreaking and so wonderful at the same time.

   But this time I’m going to go with Sam’s speech as my favorite (though it’s close) for 2 reasons. First, it was such a beautiful tribute to Dean and push aside some of my fears when the brain and brawn things came up. Dean IS a genesis, but I as confident as he is in some ways, I think he doubts his worth and potential -still, even after everything he has done. But Sam doesn’t and still idolizes his big brother, just like he did as a kid and told that to Dean so beautifully. Oh my heart can barely take it.

   The second reason this one wins, is that it gives me hope that the boys aren’t going out in a blaze of glory. I’d pretty much accepted that the guys weren’t going to make it out of the series alive. And as long as neither was in hell or a cage or some other form of endless torture, I accepted it and figured it was the closest to a happy ending as we are going to get (and it still might be). But Sam has hope, this is something we haven’t really seen in forever. He is planning on them, both of them, accomplishing these tasks, closing the gates of hell and going on to live for a good long while. And if Sam has hope, then I do too, it is quite wonderful.

   But what I also loved about that last scene is Dean trusting Sam. Not just him, but his judgment and his abilities to do this. I don’t want to start a whole huge thing, but for various reasons Dean hasn’t trusted Sam fully since S3. And while this doesn’t fix the Sam storyline this year for me, it helps to see Dean have faith in Sam again.

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4. Alice, nice to have you do the spec. article this week!

   What can I say. The brother moments were wonderful. It is so great how they can say how much they mean to each other without actually saying it. Only Dean could end such a moment by threatening to shoot Sam in the leg. Ah, love.

   I know the family was SUPPOSED to be annoying. But man, I was rooting for the hellhound. I did like how they did the hellhound effects.

   Dean making burgers for them and serving Sam, organizing his room, putting out pics of Mom. Love.

   Sam saving the day and being set up to do the tasks. Saying he will take Dean to the light at the end of the tunnel. Love.

   Sam and Dean in glasses, kinda nice!! Very enjoyable episode. 🙂

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   1. [quote] Only Dean could end such a moment by threatening to shoot Sam in the leg. Ah, love. [/quote]

      Amen!

      Reply

5. Hi Alice.
   Loved this episode. LOVED IT! This season’s getting better and better.

   Andrew Dabb is freaking me the hell out with his mad skillz! I’m starting to wonder if maybe he did one of “those” deals this year? He really seems to be million times better on his own (same goes for DL for that matter). Kudos to him. This one was just pure love.

   I too noticed the year-error. It bugs me some, but nothing compared to the axe to grind I have with the first part of the season. Now? I’m just willing to forget everything before LARP and The Real Girl and focus just on the brothers. Who are BACK IN FORM!

   Oh the love. Those speeches. It felt like season 2. I just ‘felt’ it. I’m bathing in it actually! Deans desperation and a sad kinda peace with him dying and Sam living old and bald (hee, like that’s going to happen!). I’m always just so giddy to see the love show from one brother to the other. It NEVER gets old. I’m happy that he has his hunting spirit back, but I hope he’ll snap out of that “Only ending I’m ever going to get (read: deserve) is a bloody one” -mode. As much as I’d love a Butch&Sundance ending for them, it wold not suck to see them both having a wife and kids in the end… No, it wouldn’t suck at all…
   Ah Dean. Those glasses were so HOT on him, my God. I’ve always preferred Jared over Jensen but in this episode? I was a bonafied DeanGirl. Yowza! And the love. Ah.

   And then there was Sam. Sammy Sam Sam. Oh, how it was so thrilling to see the smart, caring, loving Sam again. Where have you been?! I’m glad that the time with Amelia gave you a sense of peace about wanting to live life after hunting. Even if the story of Sam and Amelia felt clunky and boring at times, I’m glad that something like this came out of it. And I have this funny image in my head of Sam dragging Dean “in to the light” kicking and screaming. “You’ve done your part, now be at peace damnit! Don’t make me shoot you in the leg Dean!” Ah the love.
   Sam looked a bit ridiculous but cute in his glasses. Maybe with that sweater vest and tweed jacket with the elbow patches, he might’ve had the whole librarian look down pat. *sigh* I’d go to that library, all the time. 😀 Ah the love.

   The eppie felt a bit slow at times, I felt the secondary characters were a bit hollow. I liked the country singer daughter, the old man was okay, the rest were “meh”.
   I knew the foreman chick was the vic from the jump. But she was cool too. Felt less hollow than the others, on purpose I’m sure.

   I wished the actual dogs had been a bit more…gruesome, but in the end the most creepy thing about ’em was that you couldn’t see them so you always had to imagine what they looked like. So I understand it’s hard to fulfill those expectations, and with that in mind, they were okay in the end. Creepy still though.

   Nice to also see some earlier shoutouts, like hellhoundvision, goofer dust and crossroads demon summoning spell and the way the demon (Crowley of all!) made more deals than one. I’ve always loved Crossroad Blues so was nice to see this tie-in with that eppie.

   Overall not a perfect eppie but the bro moments made up for it so much!! If they keep this up, this season might redeem itself for me in spades. I’ll go for the whole “It-was-all-a-dream-Dallas-style” for the first part and really focus on the second part.

   Really looking forward towards the rest of the season.

   Ah the love. *happysigh*

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   1. Supernarttu, I literally laughed out loud at your image of Sam dragging Dean into the white light. I’m probably going to be imagining that scenario all day now.
      “Be at peace dammit!” 😀

      Reply

      1. Thanks PaintedWolf.
         It just came to me once Sam said that “And if you come with me I can take you to it. ” -line. I would have LOVED it, had he added “Kicking and screaming if I have to.” But that might have cheapen the moment so…

         We need someone to draw that!
         Lord knows, there are tons of fantastic artistic fans out there.

         Reply

   2. [quote] Sam dragging Dean “in to the light” kicking and screaming. “You’ve done your part, now be at peace damnit! Don’t make me shoot you in the leg Dean!” Ah the love. [/quote]

      Ha! I can so see that happening, Supernarttu. Brilliant!

      Reply

6. I loved those speeches. THIS, THIS is what I was waiting for ever since “Heartache” I was so bumped to hear that Sam essentially told Dean to Hunt alone “Perhaps what you want is driving down the crazy road and killed monster, alone.” basically Sam said ‘Go away, Dean. Leave me be and I won’t care if you get hurt hunting or dying.”

   I really really HATE that Sam. That evil evil poisonous words should not be uttered and Sam sounded like a childish spoiled brat. I remember thinking that if Sam really wanted to settle down and be safe he should take Dean to settle WITH HIM. I really think that the reason why Dean is never at peace living an apple life is because he’s always worried of Sam. Sam was in Hell when Dean was with Lisa. Knowing Dean how could he be at peace knowing his little brother is suffering?

   Now, Finally, Finally… those speeches … oh, Sammy, you’re back. I am not surprised by Dean’s speech because i always know that Dean always has a very low opinion on themselves. He always proud of Sam but never give himself any credit.

   I love Sam ever since LARp and I will consider the Sam before that was an Alien or he was just sleeping and having a very long nightmare; 10 Episodes long nightmare.

   Point:
   -Loved those glasses, very sexy and a bit dorky, but sexy.
   -Loved the special effect on Dean’s mutated face. The previous effects were too short IMO. This one is awesome.
   -Was that hellfire inside Sam’s arm?
   -Dean was sliced in Hell and Sam was burned. Is the reason why Sam is the better candidate for the task because he’s been burned in Hell?
   -I knew it. Those fanfiction writers had been right all along. If the boys settle down Dean will the the cook and he’ll be damn well good at it. It kind of obvious that he must had learned a thing or two about cooking because he had to feed a growing Sammy. I can’t imagine John cooked at all.
   -Sam’s face when he ate the burger is priceless!
   -Sam littering in Dean’s room is also priceless.

   Those speeches are way up there with the Stone No.1 speech. Well done!!

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   1. [quote]I loved those speeches. THIS, THIS is what I was waiting for ever since “Heartache” I was so bumped to hear that Sam essentially told Dean to Hunt alone “Perhaps what you want is driving down the crazy road and killed monster, alone.” basically Sam said ‘Go away, Dean. Leave me be and I won’t care if you get hurt hunting or dying.”

      I really really HATE that Sam. That evil evil poisonous words should not be uttered and Sam sounded like a childish spoiled brat. I remember thinking that if Sam really wanted to settle down and be safe he should take Dean to settle WITH HIM. I really think that the reason why Dean is never at peace living an apple life is because he’s always worried of Sam. Sam was in Hell when Dean was with Lisa. Knowing Dean how could he be at peace knowing his little brother is suffering?

      Now, Finally, Finally… those speeches … oh, Sammy, you’re back. I am not surprised by Dean’s speech because i always know that Dean always has a very low opinion on themselves. He always proud of Sam but never give himself any credit.

      I love Sam ever since LARp and I will consider the Sam before that was an Alien or he was just sleeping and having a very long nightmare; 10 Episodes long nightmare.

      Point:
      -Loved those glasses, very sexy and a bit dorky, but sexy.
      -Loved the special effect on Dean’s mutated face. The previous effects were too short IMO. This one is awesome.
      -Was that hellfire inside Sam’s arm?
      -Dean was sliced in Hell and Sam was burned. Is the reason why Sam is the better candidate for the task because he’s been burned in Hell?
      -I knew it. Those fanfiction writers had been right all along. If the boys settle down Dean will the the cook and he’ll be damn well good at it. It kind of obvious that he must had learned a thing or two about cooking because he had to feed a growing Sammy. I can’t imagine John cooked at all.
      -Sam’s face when he ate the burger is priceless!
      -Sam littering in Dean’s room is also priceless.

      Those speeches are way up there with the Stone No.1 speech. Well done!![/quote]

      [b]Kaj[/b], I’m with you on the curtainfic references in this ep 🙂 When I saw Dean decorating his room and making delicious burgers I was thinking of all the fanfics I’ve read where Dean is the one who longs for some form of domesticity and who can cook good meals 😀

      And I agree that Dean would have a difficult time trying to live a normal life without Sam living within daily reach. Protecting Sam, and living with Sam, has been such a huge part of Dean’s life that I think he’d really prefer to have Sam (to keep watch over and to spend time with) close by if they ever do settle down.

      Also, Sam littering in Dean’s room is very ‘little brother’ behaviour isn’t it? He’s doing it to tease Dean and because untidying your elder sibling’s bedroom is standard behaviour for younger brothers (well, it was standard behaviour for mine LOL).

      Reply

      1. [quote]
         [b]Kaj[/b], I’m with you on the curtainfic references in this ep 🙂 When I saw Dean decorating his room and making delicious burgers I was thinking of all the fanfics I’ve read where Dean is the one who longs for some form of domesticity and who can cook good meals 😀

         And I agree that Dean would have a difficult time trying to live a normal life without Sam living within daily reach. Protecting Sam, and living with Sam, has been such a huge part of Dean’s life that I think he’d really prefer to have Sam (to keep watch over and to spend time with) close by if they ever do settle down.

         Also, Sam littering in Dean’s room is very ‘little brother’ behaviour isn’t it? He’s doing it to tease Dean and because untidying your elder sibling’s bedroom is standard behaviour for younger brothers (well, it was standard behaviour for mine LOL).[/quote]

         I know, right? 😀 It was so Dean. I think perhaps the decision to put this episode after ‘Hitler’ last week is because they need to add the little tidbits about Dean’s room and the brother’s speech about Dean wanting Sam to be MoL if that makes him happy becomes a good continuity.

         I can get the plot that after last week Dean teased Sam of being MoL and kind of giving his approval. Only after that he decides to settle down and break out the pans and pots. Because he knows that Sam is content at least and finally doing something that he loves (researching), being in a place that he loves (library with the motherlode of knowledge), and the kicker is that this particular batcave is something that Dean can understand. Supposed if it’s ordinary library and ordinary books and has no beneficial at all with hunting, I believe that Dean will have a fit and protest.

         Dean can finally accept this batcave as their family legacy, theirs. He finally get to call a bedroom as his own. His giddiness when he decorates his room is so adorable and Sammy littering, I can’t get over the Sammy littering part, (don’t make it a habit, Sam) and Dean’s cooking… Awwwww

         I wonder if the reason Sam resents the Diner meats is because they are awful. Now, if Dean’s the one who cook, I bet Sam wouldn’t refuse.

         This is what I call God’s power at play in a story universe. Writer is God in their story universe. The writers here actually invented/created something with they God authority, (with reasonable plotline) something that can unite the boys. This MoL business, this Legacy from their grandfather is something that, despite their differences in taste and opinion on life, both Sam and Dean can accept. It’s a win, win solution for them.
         Saying that Sam has no resource and has no one to help him to look for Dean in Purgatory is merely the writers choice. In the end, they create Henry, they create MoL. It’s all in the hand of writers, if they want, they can make it.

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         1. [quote]
            I know, right? 😀 It was so Dean. I think perhaps the decision to put this episode after ‘Hitler’ last week is because they need to add the little tidbits about Dean’s room and the brother’s speech about Dean wanting Sam to be MoL if that makes him happy becomes a good continuity.

            I can get the plot that after last week Dean teased Sam of being MoL and kind of giving his approval. Only after that he decides to settle down and break out the pans and pots. Because he knows that Sam is content at least and finally doing something that he loves (researching), being in a place that he loves (library with the motherlode of knowledge), and the kicker is that this particular batcave is something that Dean can understand. Supposed if it’s ordinary library and ordinary books and has no beneficial at all with hunting, I believe that Dean will have a fit and protest.

            Dean can finally accept this batcave as their family legacy, theirs. He finally get to call a bedroom as his own. His giddiness when he decorates his room is so adorable and Sammy littering, I can’t get over the Sammy littering part, (don’t make it a habit, Sam) and Dean’s cooking… Awwwww

            I wonder if the reason Sam resents the Diner meats is because they are awful. Now, if Dean’s the one who cook, I bet Sam wouldn’t refuse.

            This is what I call God’s power at play in a story universe. Writer is God in their story universe. The writers here actually invented/created something with they God authority, (with reasonable plotline) something that can unite the boys. This MoL business, this Legacy from their grandfather is something that, despite their differences in taste and opinion on life, both Sam and Dean can accept. It’s a win, win solution for them.

            Saying that Sam has no resource and has no one to help him to look for Dean in Purgatory is merely the writers choice. In the end, they create Henry, they create MoL. It’s all in the hand of writers, if they want, they can make it.[/quote]

            You make a great point about Henry Winchester’s legacy being something that BOTH brothers can embrace, as opposed to John Winchester’s legacy: it was something that I think only Dean embraced fully. The MOL Bunker gives both brothers something to cherish:

            1. An actual home together (for the first time) because in the past Sam was too young to remember sharing a home with Dean before their mother was killed. Sam has had a home before but it was with Jess, or Amelia, and not Dean. Dean had a home when he was a small child but Sam was a baby so I don’t think there would have been too much of a memory for Dean of living with Sam. Dean also had a home as an adult but it was with Lisa and Ben, not Sam. So the Winchesters having their first home where they can live together, and enjoy it, is momentous 😀

            2. Resources that are close to hand and that they can master to use in the fight. They no longer have to rely on others so much for researching and artefact-finding. Their previous wandering existence would have made it difficult to amass knowledge and artefacts in the way that Bobby or Frank would have done. Also, the resources in the MOL Bunker suit the preferences of both brothers: Sam can fight but he prefers to research; Dean can research but he prefers to fight.

            3. Safety. I’m presuming the Bunker is warded and protected to the umpteenth degree so that makes it a safe place for the Winchesters and they’ve never really had a safe place before. The knowledge that they have somewhere protected might change how they see the world and their place in it.

            I also agree with you that it was very much the writers’ choice to say that Sam had no resources (or desire, it would seem) with which to search for Dean, when Dean was in Purgatory, and that the writers can be like God in how they alter characters that we love. I refuse to accept that Sam Winchester would ever do that and so I see it as the writers’ playing with the character rather than Sam’s behaviour arising naturally from his character.

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      2. [quote]And I agree that Dean would have a difficult time trying to live a normal life without Sam living within daily reach. Protecting Sam, and living with Sam, has been such a huge part of Dean’s life that I think he’d really prefer to have Sam (to keep watch over and to spend time with) close by if they ever do settle down.

         Also, Sam littering in Dean’s room is very ‘little brother’ behaviour isn’t it? He’s doing it to tease Dean and because untidying your elder sibling’s bedroom is standard behaviour for younger brothers (well, it was standard behaviour for mine LOL).[/quote]

         I agree that Dean would have a hard time being content or happy without Sam around. And I’ve always felt that Sam would be the same which is why the first half of the season bugs me so much.

         And yes that is definitely a little brother’s MO.

         Reply

         1. Yeah, [b]Kelly[/b], you’re correct – I forgot to say that Sam would also have a hard time living without Dean very nearby and in his life too 🙂 and that is, as you say, a very annoying part of the first part of S8 i.e. a Sam who doesn’t give the convincing impression that he’s as lost without his brother as he is telling people that he is. :sigh:

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            1. ciar,
               I agree–as I have said many times, not getting an acceptable excuse as to why Sam quit hunting and did not look for Dean is my only complaint this Season. We may get an acceptable reason still, but at this point if we do, we should have been given it earlier (like episode 5 or 6). I was hoping Martin was brought back because Sam was also in the mental hospital, to me that would have made sense after Season 6 & 7, Sam never really had a chance to deal with everything that happened after “Swan Song,” and that would be a very acceptable reason he did what he did. That being said if Sam had a lack of emotion about Dean being gone, that would be his natural reaction if he was avoiding reality by hiding out and creating his ‘alternate reality’ which eventually included Amelia (who was also avoiding her reality too).

7. Go tapaidh here.

   The scene in the bunker at the start was so dotey (though I do wish that Sam had picked up his wrapper. It’s not cool to litter, especially someone else’s room). However, the bit where Sam took his burger cos it was so good and Dean made it from scratch was just awwwwww. And Dean also took his. You see, this is how the refined people (like wot Sam n’ Dean iz now) do take away; no horse anus or chicken nipple burgers for those guys anymore! And it seems that Dean was sneaking in a few cookery shows between episodes of Dr. Sexy.

   Dean’s room, while it was really cool I hope that someday he’ll have something to put on his walls besides weapons and objects of violence. Not like a teddy bear but something more hopeful and less cold and impersonal (does that make sense?) I’d also really like to see what Sam’s room looks like.

   While I’ve always kinda liked Amelia and the storyline, I think what was said by Sam in this episode in a way makes the purpose of that storyline a little clearer; she (the normal life?) was a light at the end of the tunnel, a sort of Polaris if you will. You don’t know how you’re going to get to it or when or in what condition you’ll be in when you arrive but you’ve got a guiding light to help you get there and that’s what you need to survive when things are at their worst and you’re at your lowest. Now Dean has a Polaris as well (God, this feels like the start of some schmaltzy love song!) I’m glad that Sam was so vehement and vocal in his affirmation of Dean and his worth. Guy just needs to tattoo it somewhere now.

   I really like the symmetry of Sam (maybe) being the one who can close the gates to hell (provided he doesn’t cock it up). It seems apt that Lucifer’s vessel, the Boy King of Hell etc be the one who can end it. Huh, maybe it had to be Sam given the demon blood. Surely a time could not be envisaged when a ‘demon’ would want to close the gates to Hell so this is why it was him? I dunno. Similarly it paves the way for Dean, as Micheals vessel, chosen by the angels, to maybe be the one who can close the gates of Heaven (provided they go in that direction and he doesn’t cock it up).

   The episode did raise an interesting conundrum in relation to what will happen to souls when they die, do they all go to heaven? What if heaven’s gates are closed, will the souls of those who die all just float around, become things for Sam and Dean to hunt when they’re old, bald and chugging back Viagra (ah, no to that whole idea…..) Though I guess it would create a market for themselves. That’s proactive!

   (Btw, was it actually confirmed in the episode that one person has to do all the three trials? I kinda got the idea that they didn’t, especially as the incantation thing has to be done at the end of each of the three trials. I wonder what’ll happen the next time there’s a trial passed, will his other arm get all hot and glowy etc. Isn’t that kinda like how Benny got out of Purgatory?)

   Some of those Cassidy’s were so annoyingly, obnoxiously, endearingly hilarious. I’m glad that the father and the singer survived. (I’m also kinda glad that Mr. Granville got dragged off to hell cos he looks exactly like our Minister for Health. Grrrrr.)

   Sam and Dean’s five o’clock shadows are looking more like eleven pm shadows at this stage, especially Sam’s. Shave! (And maybe a little serum for your hair.)

   Sleeping two hours a night, a diet solely consisting of hotdogs and coffee, nosebleeds, aspirin etc; it’s nice that Kevin is getting to live the life of a college student so cruelly denied to him. I didn’t think the small stroke came until you were in your final year but I guess Kevin is in advanced placement for a reason!

   I love their little celebration with the laughing and the clapping and the hugging and Kevin kinda throwing his leg around Dean.

   I like that both Sam and Dean now have a sense of the appeal of the other’s world without ever losing the worth they have in their own ie the MoL has given Sam a sense of purpose in his work (something that Dean had) and now Dean has a sense of the appeal of a home (which was Sam’s domain). That’s kinda cool. At least now they understand each other better (I hope…)

   Man, Dean is being hit on left, right and centre these days! It must be the glasses. Either that or the serious take charge attitude he’s got going on this seasons. Or the glasses. I think it’s the glasses.

   There are 6,000 types of tomato so why do they all taste disgusting?

   I often wonder if, when they’re finished with the goofer (spelling?) dust or whatever, they gather it up and reuse it. I mean, surely that stuff can’t be easily got.

   Okay, two smashing episodes in a row. Three times is a habit, right? C’mon next week….

   Thanks for this, Alice.

   Reply

   1. Oh it was the glasses allright.

      MmmmmmMmmmm.

      Reply

   2. I don’t believe there was any criteria for doing the trials so Sam’s time as Lucifer’s vessel or his drinking DB had nothing to do with why he’s doing the trials. Either brother or probably anyone could have done them. I liked that about the story. I thought it was going to be a competition to see who was worthy of doing the trials (and I wasn’t looking forward to that), but that’s not the way it was presented. The debate or “fight” over who performed the trials was more heartfelt and solely about both brothers wanting better for the other.

      The brotherhood is back and strong! YAY!

      Reply

   3. [quote]Go tapaidh here.
      The scene in the bunker at the start was so dotey (though I do wish that Sam had picked up his wrapper. It’s not cool to litter, especially someone else’s room). However, the bit where Sam took his burger cos it was so good and Dean made it from scratch was just awwwwww. And Dean also took his. You see, this is how the refined people (like wot Sam n’ Dean iz now) do take away; no horse anus or chicken nipple burgers for those guys anymore! And it seems that Dean was sneaking in a few cookery shows between episodes of Dr. Sexy.
      Dean’s room, while it was really cool I hope that someday he’ll have something to put on his walls besides weapons and objects of violence. Not like a teddy bear but something more hopeful and less cold and impersonal (does that make sense?) I’d also really like to see what Sam’s room looks like.
      I really like the symmetry of Sam (maybe) being the one who can close the gates to hell (provided he doesn’t cock it up). It seems apt that Lucifer’s vessel, the Boy King of Hell etc be the one who can end it. Huh, maybe it had to be Sam given the demon blood. Surely a time could not be envisaged when a ‘demon’ would want to close the gates to Hell so this is why it was him? I dunno. Similarly it paves the way for Dean, as Micheals vessel, chosen by the angels, to maybe be the one who can close the gates of Heaven (provided they go in that direction and he doesn’t cock it up).

      (Btw, was it actually confirmed in the episode that one person has to do all the three trials? I kinda got the idea that they didn’t, especially as the incantation thing has to be done at the end of each of the three trials. I wonder what’ll happen the next time there’s a trial passed, will his other arm get all hot and glowy etc. Isn’t that kinda like how Benny got out of Purgatory?)

      I like that both Sam and Dean now have a sense of the appeal of the other’s world without ever losing the worth they have in their own ie the MoL has given Sam a sense of purpose in his work (something that Dean had) and now Dean has a sense of the appeal of a home (which was Sam’s domain). That’s kinda cool. At least now they understand each other better (I hope…)

      I often wonder if, when they’re finished with the goofer (spelling?) dust or whatever, they gather it up and reuse it. I mean, surely that stuff can’t be easily got. [/quote]

      [b]Tim[/b], aontaím faoi seomra leapa Dean! The room is a bit cold and, frankly, a bit “a weapons nut lives here” so I’d like to see some less martial touches to the room. The photo of Dean and his Mum softened things a little but the room could be doing with more of that sort of thing 🙂 We all know that Dean can be a wee dote (when he’s not being soldier!Dean) so it would be nice to see more of his softer side being shown.

      The symmetry of Sam closing the gate of Hell is a good one, actually. I like the idea that Sam might finally stop giving himself a hard time over Lucifer + Apocalypse, I don’t feel Sam needs to redeem himself because he was tricked into doing what he did and he was doing it for what he thought was the right reason, however it might be good for Sam to be the one to carry out the tasks as he tends to be hard on himself and this might be his way to make himself feel better about what he did in the past. As for Dean closing the gates of Heaven, that’s an interesting speculation and poses interesting questions with regards the souls of dead people will go after they die. Mind you, SPN’s take on Christian theology has never been that standard so they might find a way around that issue.

      Living in the Winchester Bunker + the events of this week does seem to brought the brothers’ ideas of the future a bit more in line which is a good thing. And I am much more willing to forget some of the not-so-great earlier episodes of this season if we’ve now got Sam and Dean working together on the same page. It looks as though the writers consider the conflict between Sam and Dean, from earlier this season, to be finished and so I will just have to accept that I’m not going to get any scenes where they discuss and resolve the issues arising from Dean’s year in Purgatory (i.e. Sam not looking for Dean and Dean being bitter with Sam because of Amelia).

      Re: the goofer dust query you raised – I’ve always wondered if Sam and Dean leave behind a trail of motel rooms with salted window-sills and door-frames and, when it comes time to clean the rooms that Sam and Dean were staying in, if the motel cleaning staff think that the room’s previous occupants were weird when they find all the salt (plus other things like goofer dust or catseye shells etc) 😀

      Reply

   4. [quote]Sleeping two hours a night, a diet solely consisting of hotdogs and coffee, nosebleeds, aspirin etc; it’s nice that Kevin is getting to live the life of a college student so cruelly denied to him. I didn’t think the small stroke came until you were in your final year but I guess Kevin is in advanced placement for a reason!
      [/quote]

      LOL! 🙂

      Reply

   5. That is a really question. Where would all the souls go if they close both? I’m not really for them closing Heaven’s Gates anyway, but if the show goes there, that would definitely be increasing the Winchester’s work load.

      What’s wrong with tomatoes?

      Reply

      1. Maybe when the gates close it only keep people (souls? the dead?) from coming back out but they can still enter like they are supposed to? I think we need a little more intel on what, exactly, closing the gates means….maybe it doesn’t mean what the boys think it means?

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   6. [quote] horse anus or chicken nipple burgers for those guys anymore! [/quote] Was Dean’s line about eating pig’s anuses and then saying ‘not that there’s anything wrong with that’ his attempt to be politically correct, and thereby being offensive?

      [quote] I’d also really like to see what Sam’s room looks like. [/quote]

      Seconded.

      [quote] While I’ve always kinda liked Amelia and the storyline, I think what was said by Sam in this episode in a way makes the purpose of that storyline a little clearer [/quote]

      Secondeded.

      [quote] I really like the symmetry of Sam (maybe) being the one who can close the gates to hell (provided he doesn’t cock it up)… Similarly it paves the way for Dean, as Michaels vessel, chosen by the angels, to maybe be the one who can close the gates of Heaven (provided they go in that direction and he doesn’t cock it up). [/quote]

      Ooooh, very cool point of view 🙂

      [quote] The episode did raise an interesting conundrum in relation to what will happen to souls when they die, do they all go to heaven? What if heaven’s gates are closed, will the souls of those who die all just float around…Though I guess it would create a market for themselves. That’s proactive! [/quote]

      Ha! Maybe they convert the Gates into turnstiles – entry only?

      [quote] I didn’t think the small stroke came until you were in your final year but I guess Kevin is in advanced placement for a reason! [/quote]

      Genius.

      [quote] Man, Dean is being hit on left, right and centre these days! It must be the glasses. Either that or the serious take charge attitude he’s got going on this seasons. Or the glasses. I think it’s the glasses. [/quote]

      I believe the correct term here is ‘humina, humina, humina’ ;p

      [quote] There are 6,000 types of tomato so why do they all taste disgusting? [/quote]

      Tomatoes are great, dude! Of what dost thou speak?

      [quote] I often wonder if, when they’re finished with the goofer (spelling?) dust or whatever, they gather it up and reuse it. I mean, surely that stuff can’t be easily got. [/quote]

      Here’s hoping they have a Goofer Dustbuster secreted away in the Impala’s Mary Poppins-style trunk 🙂

      Reply

      1. It doesn’t say you can’t go to hell, you just can’t come out once you’re in. At least that’s how I read it.

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8. Im not weak I tell you:)) and it’s probably because Im sick so couldn’t sleep so I decided to watch Supernatural (obviously).
   I started welling up when I saw Kevin’s face in the beginning when he deciphered the tablet after so much restless nights (EPIC).
   Right after that scene their was, the room scene and mum’s photograph which felt so much like older seasons, like the beginning, I teared up here.
   Then all the brotherly banter the hug everything it was an amazing episode dare I say the best of the series.
   FYI as my name shows Im a guy with a girl friend and a life, but I’m honoured to say that SPN and it’s fandom is a big part of my life:))
   Thank you for the review
   Can you please like my Supernatural page on Facebookhttp://www.facebook.com/pages/Supernatural-Diehard-Fans/454760544539087?fref=ts
   Thanks YOU

   Reply

9. Great review of an amazing episode. The brothers’ speeches were remarkable-really showing how much they love each other. Loved that Sam’s was so hopeful & determined that both he and Dean would make it out of that tunnel into the light. Liked the “hellhound” affect and that Sam will be doing the trials. And really loved Dean’s room, with his Mom’s picture-and great to know the man can cook!!! So looking forward to next week’s story, the rest of this season and season 9. The season ending “cliff hanger” should be amazing & make the summer seem very long.

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10. Great episode. Only quibble is I wish the fight scene at the end with the hellhound was a bit longer. But I guess our show only has so much in its budget. Nevertheless, love the speeches between our boys. Love the brotherly moments. Loving this season!

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11. I really strongly disliked this episode, because it’s back to same old same old. Dean taking care of Sam. Sam being the chosen one to do everything while Dean stands there watching without a story of his own. I am tired of it. I really wished they would finally see how special Dean is with all his connections and experiences, but I guess it will just always be Sam with sidekick Dean (of course I am being overly sarcastic here, but it’s really annoying to always have everythign revolve around Sam).
    I wish they would have at least made it so both brothers together taking on the trials. This set ups though, makes me really consider giving up watching the show completely. Because as a Dean-Fan you can only get more and more frustrated the way they are screwing with your favourite character while Sam gets whitewashed time and time again.
    Sam wants Dean to have friends and is sorry that Dean doesn’t see the light at the end of the tunnel?
    Wow, talking about uneven writing, because all I have seen so far is Sam complaining, Sam being an ass (especially in that Mary scene), Sam blaming Dean for giving his beautiful life up, Sam not even looking for Dean, Sam who blackmailed Dean into abandoning his friend Benny. Oh and for all this behaviour he not even ONCE apologized or said I’m sorry. Which Dean did plenty of times.
    So forgive me guys, when I am not being overly happy about this clusterfuck of an episode that once again put Dean as far away from any story as possible.
    I enjoyed sam having the human story, because it was different for once. And I was hoping for Dean to finally getting recognized in terms of a myth-arc (I mean one should think all the things that Dean went through made him special and deserving of such an arc but apparently I was wrong: It isn’t obvs. not enough that Dean was to heaven, hell, purgatory, fae world, is the righteous man, Michael’s true vessel, a past vampire and has phoenix ash in his system to center him in a myth arc). Guess, people say hope dies last. Well my died with this last episode.

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    1. WOW did you watch the same episode as the rest of us? I’m a Deangirl all the way and IMO you are so off base here. I here TVD could use some more viewers. Just kidding that was tacky, forgive me. I just don’t see where you feel Dean was far away from the story. He was right in the middle of it and doing what he was always told to do by John and that is to “watch out for Sammy”. And why is that everyone keeps insisting that Sam did not look for Dean when Sam has told Dean (maybe not in the words some need to hear) that he didn’t look for Dean because he thought he was dead. I realize there are Dean fans and Sam fans but to think that they should be written equally takes away from their individuality. They may be brothers but they are still separate men with different ideas and dreams but still there for each other when push comes to shove. Like the beginning of the season, we just need to let the story play out and see where it takes us before getting so negative. I still credit J&J for taking us all where we are because without their flawless acting abilities it is just words on a page.

       Reply

    2. [quote] Dean taking care of Sam. Sam being the chosen one to do everything while Dean stands there watching without a story of his own. I am tired of it. I really wished they would finally see how special Dean is with all his connections and experiences, but I guess it will just always be Sam with sidekick Dean[/quote]

       Umm….. “Dean stands there watching without a story of his own?” “Sidekick Dean?” What was Purgatory then? The search for Cas while in Purgatory? Angsting over leaving Cas behind? His special relationship with Benny the best vampire ever? His Purgatory PTSD? Being unhappy with Sam? What were all of these things that dominated the entirety of the first half of the season? These were story lines… and good ones to boot and they went on for ten whole episodes.

       Dean IS special… so special in fact that he often gets the better end of the story lines and ALL of the point of view. It’s only right and balanced that we switch over to Sam a little bit. It bothers me greatly when a character is given really great story lines, fantastic screen time, good character development, fun action sequences wonderful detail and attention from the writers and etc… and fans STILL aren’t happy and claim that their favorite is being slighted in some way. It simply isn’t the case IMHO.

       Reply

       1. In no way does Dean get “all” of the point of view. I’m quite sure Dean had no point of view in all of Sam’s flashback scenes with Amelia, which I read actually got more screentime than Dean’s Purgatory flashbacks did (yes, someone counted the minutes). That was ALL Sam POV.

          Sam was at the center of Kripke’s mytharc storyline for 5 seasons. He was the chosen one who took on Lucifer and sacrificed his life in order to save the world from the Apocalypse, while Dean had to play the supportive brother role.

          And now Sam is the chosen one role for these trials, while Dean is the supportive brother role again. It is definitely not balanced, IMO.

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          1. Thank you! Exactly! This is my impression a swell. It is not balanced.

             Dean’s purgatory flashbacks were WAY shorter than Sam’s.
             And yes to everything else as well.

             Dean has always been supporter and never center of the myth arc which is a shame since he has SO many connections to build myth arcs on.

             So yes, this “bothers” me and it makes me sad and furious.

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             1. Yeah, count me in the ‘this episode was great until the last 5 minutes’ group, however small this group may be. Once again, Dean gets relegated to sidekick supporting Sam when he’s saving the world. I thought for once, for ONCE, they would break the mould. I was sooo disappointed in this outcome. Oh well, Dean is an excellent cook apparently and no doubt he can do laundry REALLY well as the bunker probably has a great laundry! So, perhaps he may find a recipe book amongst all those other MoL books that he can work with. 😳

          2. Chris _J, one of the many reason I hate Sam’s FB is that they actually told us absolutely nothing about Sam. Nothing. We learned a lot about Amelia. The crankiest vet ever, but basically nothing about Sam. Just because he’s on the screen doesn’t mean he is getting a POV.

             And I haven’t actually timed them but are you sure Dean’s FB had less screen time? Because I’m thinking it was simply that Sam’s FB’s were so boring that time stopped-sort of like when you’re at the DMV.

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             1. Thats great KELLY!!! Don’t be funny when I am drinking coffee OK.

             2. I agree Kelly. It’s not about quantity, its about quality and Dean’s Purgatory storyline was, hands down, far more interesting, exciting, atmospheric and bad ass than the Amelia flashbacks. To use Sam’s flashbacks as an example of exclusively getting Sam’s POV is ridiculous.. Dean wasn’t even there so of course we didn’t get his POV; the same thing can be said about Sam not getting any POV in the Dean flashbacks. Of course, the true irony here, is that we didn’t get much in the way of POV from Sam’s flashbacks anyway, we only got Amelia’s. So, in a vehicle designed to show each brother’s exclusive experiences while they were apart, to delve into their psyche’s only worked for Dean and not so much for Sam.

                And yes, Sam was the focal point of the mytharc for 5 whole years under Kripke, but nearly the entire story was told through Dean’s eyes; it was something Dean had to deal with, and fix, primarily because in the grand scheme of the Apocalypse Dean was seen as the brother in the right, the one to be supported, while Sam was labeled the brother in the wrong, the one to be stopped. We learned pretty much how only Dean felt, what he did and why. With Sam, the actual object of said storyline? Not so much. We even learned what Sam thought about things through Dean, with Dean giving us this information instead of Sam. And as far as Dean’s actual story lines that were separate from Sam in those years: in season 3 he was the guy who was going to hell for saving Sam, and that concept dominated the season and colored everything Dean did in every episode. In season 4 he was the guy who was risen from perdition to take on his mission (it wasn’t known at that time what that mission was exactly, just that “God has work for you.”) He had entire scenes and interactions with Cas that had nothing to do with Sam. In season 5 he was the guy who was destined to wear Michael to the Apocalypse. Some fans may not have liked these story lines, felt that they were unfulfilling or not detailed enough, (although I don’t agree, and thought they were fabulous) but they were in fact, story lines given to Dean for the express purposes of showing his character’s emotions. To say that he’s had nothing to do and is a sidekick is inaccurate IMO, as evidenced by the multiple examples I have given.

       2. E, I’m with you. Maybe because I was [i] just[/i] expressing my frustrations with Sam’s storyline the first half of this season, but this is kinda of laughable. Dean has had a stellar storyline all season long and had a freakin’ tribute by Sam to his awesomeness (which I loved BTW). While Sam has had the soap opera relationship with the most annoying character on the showever, AFTER saying he didn’t bother to look for Dean. In addition to not really having one iota of Sam’s perspective. And people are bitching about Dean’s storyline.

          Plus it still looks like there is going to be plenty of action and storyline for Dean. We still have the Cas and Naomi situation and I seriously doubt Dean sits on the sidelines will Sam takes on the other two trials. (like Sam did for one entire episode) I’m sure that Sam is going to need lots of help to actually survive.

          And while I’m not one for having to have an exact balance on the show, Dean took out Dick Roman last season. So it’s not as if he as been regulated to sidekick. Good Grief!

          Reply

       3. Excuse me but Dean DOES NOT get the better end of the storylines, are you kidding me? Dean gets next to NOTHING
          Purgatory? His PTSD? That lasted all of a couple of episodes and wasn’t even about Dean, but Cas and Benny. Sam’s Amelia story got most of the flashbacks and most of the front burner attention. Next Sam get MOLs, Dean’s the ‘greatest hunter’ yet he was too weak to kill the hellhound, they gave that to Sam so he could have yet ANOTHER important main story, and now he even gets a chronic illness arc. What great Dean storylines? And the writers? Carver and Singer talk ONLY about Sam, never about Dean!
          Switch over to Sam a little bit? Again, are you kidding me? When has it ever NOT been switched over to Sam?
          I’m sorry but your statements make it hard for me to believe we watch the same show. Sam DOES get everything while Dean is relegated to a supporting role as always.
          But other than that, it was a good episode.

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    3. I haven’t been this disappoint with the show since the end of Swan Song. To start off with such great possibilities and to have it end up to be the same old rinse and repeat with Sam the Chosen One and Dean the cape bearer is one thing, but to turn Dean into June Cleaver, cleaning, decorating the new digs, cooking for Sam, doing the grocery shopping, and laying on the ground once again is not the kind of character development I expected.

       I couldn’t be more disappointed in what Carver has given us.

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       1. Thank you Ginger.
          I couldn’t agree more.
          I see, we – who dislike the episode – are very few and apparently also not allowed to voice our opinion…

          I’m sorry, but I don’t see how it is positive to having been given the same story we got for 8 seasons. Sam doing whatever it is he’s doing and Sam supporting – which is judging from some comments on here – what he always been told to do: watch out for sammy.

          Sorry to rain on your parade, but it’s no wonder I am colliding with your views, because Dean is and deserves a lot more than just being Sam’s older brother.

          I don’t see how this is progression or role reversal. HOW? It would have been a reversal if Sam for once would have to take care of Dean and back him up in doing the trials.

          Now we have Sam doing the trials, him acknowledging that Dean is suicidal and I guarantee you next episode it will be glossed over and forgotten and sorry, but that is no way to treat and handle such themes. Especially not depression or suicide.

          So basically, we’ll get the one who obvs. would need back up emotionally and psychologically (because he pretty much mentioned – just like Cas – not caring to live or die) backing up the one doing the trials while he himself gets no time to heal or support from his brother simply because there isn’t time for that. I don’t blame Sam for that, but the writers.

          If you want to handle such delicate matters do it in an appropriate manner or don’t do them at all. This way it sure as hell is not satisfying.

          Reply

          1. Hey, sorrybut
             Had to respond to your first line here about not being allowed to voice your opinion.

             Your opinions, and those of everyone who doesn’t like the role you see Dean being put in, are just as valid as mine are, when I haven’t liked the way they’ve portrayed Sam this season.
             There will always be some who aren’t overly polite in how they disagree. (no, I’m not pointing fingers at anyone here.. just pointing out a human trait that we’re all guilty of at times. Including me.)

             Please feel free to voice your side. I will continue to voice mine. Hopefully, at some point, there will be a plot line that we are all happy with, ’cause I’m not ready to give up on this show, and it doesn’t sound like you are, either.

             Reply

             1. st 50- ” a plot line that we are all happy with”. Never gonna happen!! We can hope though. 🙂 🙂

             2. st50, you’re absolutely right and I apologize to anyone I might have offended. Like I side, it was probably overflow from talking about Sam’s storyline.

                While I completely disagree with these ideas, I certainly don’t want anyone to feel they can’t express their own opinion.

          2. [quote]I see, we – who dislike the episode – are very few and apparently also not allowed to voice our opinion…
             [/quote]

             If you could point out or quote the exact response where you have been told not to voice your opinion I would like to see it. Disagreeing with someone is not the same as telling them they have no right to their opinion. Can you show me where this was said?

             Reply

             1. Well I’d say “Wow, have you watched the same episode as the rest of us? […] you are so off base here” and “I hear TVD is looking for people to watch the show” comes pretty close to something like that: Go somewhere else, here your opinion is not welcome.

             2. I don’t agree, these things were said by Trucklady in jest, and she even said so. If you are going to interpret them that way, then there is nothing I can really do or say to change your mind I suppose. Let me say plainly though, that I for one, although I don’t share your point of view, do NOT want you to go away or feel that your opinion is not welcome, and ST50 and Leah have said likewise. Dissenting opinions are what make a conversation interesting. If you’d like to continue with the current discussion, I’m game.

             3. No problem.

       2. [quote]I haven’t been this disappoint with the show since the end of Swan Song. To start off with such great possibilities and to have it end up to be the same old rinse and repeat with Sam the Chosen One and Dean the cape bearer is one thing, but to turn Dean into June Cleaver, cleaning, decorating the new digs, cooking for Sam, doing the grocery shopping, and laying on the ground once again is not the kind of character development I expected.

          I couldn’t be more disappointed in what Carver has given us.[/quote]

          Well Sam wasnt actually chosen in the true sense of the word it is not like God pointed his divine finger at him and said it’s you Sam. Dean went to kill the hound got hurt and tossed and Sam came in to kill it before it got Dean or anybody else. I highly doubt that Dean will become Martha Stewart and also that he wont be a major player in the story . Dean the side kick has never existed on the show IMHO.

          Dean will not disappear , get 40 seconds or have very little pov into what he is thinking and when it come’s down to the crunch he will be in there in the thick of it.

          Reply

       3. I’m pretty sure June Cleaver wouldn’t have decorated her room with deadly weapons. Just sayin’. 🙂

          I’m with you to the extent that the Dean-as-chef bit seemed a little bit contrived to me. Just enough to make my eyes squint. But that was forgivable – it makes sense to me that being in an environment that allows them to actually relax and rest and be comfortable would bring out the more domestic side of each of them. And there is precedent for domesticated-Dean, a la S6. When he was with Lisa he cooked, made “supply runs,” and I’m also certain he did some cleaning too.

          However, I don’t agree that this is a “rinse and repeat of Sam the Chosen One and Dean the Cape Bearer” – I see it as the brothers working together. Sam killing the hell hound wasn’t because he was chosen, it was because he was trying to save his brother. This isn’t comparable to the demon blood or psychic kid or angel-vessel storylines of the past, where destiny chose the brothers for different fates. This is both brothers doing the choosing – they’re in this offensive fight together. But Sam wouldn’t – won’t – be able to do it alone, and vice versa. They’re a [i]team[/i]. There’s nothing “less” about being in an equal and mutually supportive role. And we don’t even know how this is going to play out, yet.

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    4. I totally see where you are coming from, Sorrybut. Sam is not only the “Men of Letters”, the brains. But now he is also the one doing the trials, the brawn. I find this one of the sorriest excuses for a story. What happened to all the maturity we were suppose to be seeing? We are right back to season 1 in every aspect. Except now Dean is little Susie homemaker. Next he’ll be baking cookies and cleaning the batcave. Perhaps he is Alfred in disguise.

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       1. Oh Bluepony, with your little idea about Dean being “Alfred in disguise” you actually managed to make me smile for the first time today. Though of course I agree with you. The way Dean has been written is just horrible IMO.
          I don’t see any maturity.

          I just read the zap2it interview about Sam’s coming story and I feel like forgetting myself already.

          Really show? Really? We’ll get poor Sam suffering physically from being the one who does the trials? And of course Dean worrying like crazy and therefore of course no development for Dean and his problems at all? Because, of course Sam is more important than Dean’s emotional problems.

          Really, I am done.
          Actually, knowing that Dean won’t have a story at all for the rest of the season explains why JA seemed less than excited in that last interview. He really deserves much better material than he’s getting. I wouldn’t be surprised if he wouldn’t sign a contract for S10 if they should get a 10th season. Actually, I might even support that decision, because the way it seems every other character that is not Sam is just background music.

          I know I am exaggerating here. But I need to get all this frustration off my chest.

          Where the hell is the problem giving both characters strong storylines? I will never understand it.

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          1. Glad I could make you smile. I am running from anger to heartbroken, back to anger again. I havn’t decided about watching the show or not.

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             1. Same here. I am really – and I know this is freaking crazy – feeling like I am going through a pretty bad break up. That is how I feel. CRAZY!!!

                I was just wishing we would get some real progression this season, but so far… nada. And every new spoiler that surfaces makes me more sure about my decision to give up on SPN for good, because it just undermines everything I was fearing would happen.

                Glad, I am not the only one though who feels kind of hit in the face with all of this.

             2. I am curious; you obviously feel as strongly about this as I do about how I perceive Sam is often treated on this show. What did you think of the Purgatory/Find Cas/Guilt over losing Cas/Support Benny storyline from the first half of the season? You didn’t find this strong or interesting? What about it bothered you, what would you have rather seen to have made it more satisfying for you?

             3. I loved the purgatory flashbacks. What makes me sad is that the whole backstory of what happened in purgatory led nowhere. The whole story and disaster about Dean and Cas and Cas “letting go” was heartbreaking and beautiful, but in the end nothing that happened there to Dean has been taken in to account for what’s to come for him for the rest of the season. Or at least that is my impression. I find it to be illogical to protray Dean as the ultimate hunter in purgatory, taking out an entire nest of vamps together with Benny and then suddenly apparently being to weak to fight off a hellhound. This just doesn’t add up. Not at all. Especially when Sam was being civilian the entire year.

                And then of course there are problems I am having with Sam’s remarks in the last episode. Now suddenly – despite telling Dean the exact opposite just a few episodes ago during which really nothing happened that changed that – there are so many friends Dean has. In Blood Brother he told Dean very clearly what he thinks of Dean and his “friends”: “You don’t have no friends, Dean. All your friends are dead.” Talking about plotholes over plotholes.

                The best way would have been to have both brothers take on the trials together. Not just message wise, but also for the brothers in terms of starting to see eye to eye and not in a co-dependent manner.

                So yeah, my problem is that Dean once again gets the shaft and has no story of his own. Though there could be one hell of a story. And what irks me even more is that the brush serious topics – depression and suicide – both of which Dean pretty much admitted to. Him wanting to die. So, if he can’t take on the trials fine. But then at least give him a strong healing storyline, one where Sam REALLY supports Dean. Emotionally and not via some stupid trials.

                There lies my problem. Because that won’t happen. Dean will magically be better, because he has to take care of Sam because he’s getting all kinds of symptoms and Dean himself doesn’t get better at all. And that is not just dissatisfying but also no way to handle such delicate topics in my opinion.

                Because: just because Sam wants to Dean to live, doesn’t mean that Dean wants to live. That’s not how depression and being suicidal works and there is no magically getting better. Believe me I know that first hand. What Dean needs would be true emotional support right now, not being the one to take care of Sam with his burden. But given SPN history this is not gonna happen.

                So, my issues lie with the way SPN treats those topics. Because they handle them horribly. If you don’t have the time to handle those topic in a sensitive manner and in depths then don’t introduce them at all.

                Oh and btw. I am a total minority here with that opinion as well, but I really loved Sam’s storyline with Amelia and his flashbacks, because he was so beautifully human and it was something else than the same old same old.

                So yeah, this got long.
                If we’d get Sam really supporting Dean emotionally and not by taking on stupid tasks I will be the first one to applaud, but I highly doubt we’ll get to see that. The only thing we’ll get to see is Dean fretting over Sam with no story of his own or even worse ignorance towards his mental and emotional issues.

             4. sorrybut (GREAT name BTW 🙂 ),
                Remember Dean was saved by Benny in Purgatory, the same way Sam saved him from the Hell Hound. Dean could have bit it right there in Purgatory. In these cases I think “saved” should be translated as “stronger as a team.” Dean and Benny were the ultimate team in Purgatory. Dean and Sam are the ultimate team on Earth. Each has saved the other countless times. Purgatory story was big for Dean. He came back a better (more ruthless) hunter. His perception was he failed Cas, but the reality he learned later is he DID NOT fail Cas, it was Cas’s choice to stay, Dean really had now choice in that. Cas told Dean, in one of my favorite moments of the season/series “You can’t save everyone my friend, no matter how hard you try.”
                Also, Sam did say all of our friends are dead, but in the last episode he told Dean he has Family to live for (that would be Sam), so that was not a contradiction.

          2. Sorrybut, JA and JP mentioned at a con earlier this year that they both have already signed on for season 10 if there is one so both actors are committed to the long run. I know that this news probably won’t make you happy, but I am thrilled. And with a baby on the way, this isn’t the best time for Jensen to suddenly be unemployed, big salary or not.

             Reply

12. What a great episode, I loved it! My only pet peeve, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but where is it so bright outside at 5:00 a.m. in January??? Okay granted, I live in Montreal, so when I get up at 5:00, it’s pitch black, but is there somewhere in the States that is so bright that early in winter? Just asking.
    And I’m with Tigershire about this one, I’ve made my peace with it:[quote]I’m over worrying about the date. For me, it’s like my loved ones leaving the dirty socks on the floor. Not a deal breaker. I’ve let it go. :)[/quote]

    Okay, now for all the good stuff. My adrenaline was pumping so hard after the episode that I had a hard time going to sleep! I kept replaying the episode over and over in my head. Actually, now that I think about it, that’s a good thing, because then I just dreamt about SPN, so win-win. 🙂

    Oh my, Dean’s speech to Sam 😥 , it’s just so sad that Dean will always see himself as dying and is so willing to sacrifice himself for his little brother’s future happiness. But then, Sam comes along and delivers his own speech! 😥 Oh Sam, you beautiful warm hearted lovable lug you. That had me in tears. But when Sam said the magical words and collapsed to the floor, the look on Dean’s face. 😮 Someone on this thread (I’m sorry, don’t rememeber who) mentioned hell fire. That sure is what it looked like. It makes me shudder for the next trials he’ll have to go through, Kevin did say the last one sounded like having your spleen ripped out through your mouth! 😮

    Now for the lighter side of things:
    – Dean getting his own room and putting weapons on the walls with a picture of his mom and him! 🙂
    – We can finally say that Led Zeppelin made it to SPN, even if it was only an album cover. 😆
    – Sam enjoyed that burger so much that he took it with him, plate and all!
    – Dean in glasses, hubba, hubba. 😳

    Oh and so many other things, can’t wait to watch it again.

    Reply

    1. Uh no, still pitch black at 5a in Jan and Feb.

       Reply

    2. In the Northwest where I live, still pitch black at 5 am. That’s the time I arrive at work every day. As the weeks go on it lightens, not now.

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13. I absolutely loved this episode! There is absolutely no doubt of the brother’s love for each other. Whether or not they ever actually discuss the issues they have does not even matter anymore. There is no doubt where they stand.

    To echo Alice’s little nitpick: When I saw the calendar I worried about what that would do to the fandom, so many got so worked up in season 6 when we were brought to the present and now it has happened again. I haven’t read anyone’s comments yet so if this has already been said I apologize. People, please try to not get worked up over the date. It truly does not matter one tiny little bit what the actual date is. Just set that aside and enjoy the show. This was far too awesome of an episode for us to get worked up over something that in the big picture just plain does not matter. So please, try to not get caught up in the date issue so much that the wonderfulness of this episode gets cast aside. Thanks. 🙂

    Loved Dean’s room, I hope we get to see Sam’s.

    Reply

    1. [quote]I absolutely loved this episode! There is absolutely no doubt of the brother’s love for each other. Whether or not they ever actually discuss the issues they have does not even matter anymore. There is no doubt where they stand.

       [/quote]

       Well said. “Whether or not they ever actually discuss the issues they have does not even matter anymore. There is no doubt where they stand.” This is what makes my heart sing. Over and over again 🙂

       Reply

14. my addition to these comments is to wonder if anything will be said in future eps by Dean (either verbally or off-handedly) that he is sorry/feeling guilty for saying to Sam that he intended to die in these trials because if he hadn’t, Sam might not have intervened…

    Reply

    1. [quote]my addition to these comments is to wonder if anything will be said in future eps by Dean (either verbally or off-handedly) that he is sorry/feeling guilty for saying to Sam that he intended to die in these trials because if he hadn’t, Sam might not have intervened…[/quote]

       This is my opinion, of course, but the ways things went down, I think Sam would have had to intervene whether Dean had given the speech or not. Now whether Dean will carry the guilt, though, is a different story as we all know.

       Reply

    2. Mer- I have a slightly different take in that I think Dean EXPECTED to die not INTENDED to die. I don’t, as others do think, that Dean is suicidal. I think he is fatalistic and thinks he will die “bloody” but I don’t see him ever going into a battle hoping to die unless by doing so he would save Sam somehow. As for guilt, what doesn’t he feel guilty about??

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       1. The comma in the second sentence s/b after the word “do”. One of these days I should become a member so I can fix some of those pesky typos!!

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15. REALLY loved this episode. It went a long way towards fixing the season for me. I’ll just continue pretending those first 10 episodes never happened,…

    (But I REALLY want them tied in somehow so that it fixes a huge hole in plot for me… I still need to know how the Sam I know (the one who made an appearance in this episode) could walk away from either Dean or Kevin – especially as he has been the pawn of demons his entire life himself. Sam just couldn’t turn his back on Kevin, leaving him in the hands of Crowley. Or abandon Dean. Nope. Neither of them)….

    But I digress. This episode….
    I was NOT looking forward to some fight over who was the better hunter/more worthy/whatever to do the trials. I don’t like it when either of the guys puts themselves down. Enough of that. They’re both heroes and they’ve both saved enough people over the years that that whole “I’m not good enough” thing needs to end. (Hear me, Dean?)
    So for me, the way this worked out was wonderful. That fight was taken away from them. It just happened that way. Decision made.

    And those speeches! 😥 I actually wanted to yell at Sam after Dean’s speech “Don’t you let him walk away after that! Open your damn mouth, Sam!”….. But when he finally did speak, it was perfect. I heart you boys.

    I thought the family was hilariously over the top. And it was very obvious (to me) who the real victim was going to be. Nice effects on the hallucinated Dean face! That was cool.
    (oh, and Alice, I laughed at the nesting comment, too. Somebody’s been reading the fanfiction. 😀 )

    I know lots of fans feel the mytharc thing has been unevenly distributed in the past. This season feels like it has the potential to be much more even. Dean got the purgatory story (Better story than Amelia!), Sam gets the trials. I’m expecting Dean to be the one to save Cas and deal with Naomi….. There’s more than one story going on here, and I think (hope) they both have the chance to be the main hero in one of them.

    End of season cliff hanger? I predict Sam (successful in the trials or not) ends up in a hospital bed with some unknown affliction the doctors don’t know how to treat. And Dean will go fetch his Amelia for him. ( 😡 ) Then the rescued Cas will come in with another miracle cure, at the start of season 9. Please, NO. Don’t go there, Carver!

    Reply

    1. [quote]REALLY loved this episode. It went a long way towards fixing the season for me. I’ll just continue pretending those first 10 episodes never happened,…

       (But I REALLY want them tied in somehow so that it fixes a huge whole in plot for me… I still need to know how the Sam I know (the one who made an appearance in this episode) could walk away from either Dean or Kevin – especially as he has been the pawn of demons his entire life himself. Sam just couldn’t turn his back on Kevin, leaving him in the hands of Crowley. Or abandon Dean. Nope. Neither of them)….

       But I digress. This episode….
       I was NOT looking forward to some fight over who was the better hunter/more worthy/whatever to do the trials. I don’t like it when either of the guys puts themselves down. Enough of that. They’re both heroes and they’ve both saved enough people over the years that that whole “I’m not good enough” thing needs to end. (Hear me, Dean?)
       So for me, the way this worked out was wonderful. That fight was taken away from them. It just happened that way. Decision made.

       And those speeches! 😥 I actually wanted to yell at Sam after Dean’s speech “Don’t you let him walk away after that! Open your damn mouth, Sam!”….. But when he finally did speak, it was perfect. I heart you boys.

       I know lots of fans feel the mytharc thing has been unevenly distributed in the past. This season feels like it has the potential to be much more even. Dean got the purgatory story (Better story than Amelia!), Sam gets the trials. I’m expecting Dean to be the one to save Cas and deal with Naomi….. There’s more than one story going on here, and I think (hope) they both have the chance to be the main hero in one of them.

       End of season cliff hanger? I predict Sam (successful in the trials or not) ends up in a hospital bed with some unknown affliction the doctors don’t know how to treat. And Dean will go fetch his Amelia for him. ( 😡 ) Then the rescued Cas will come in with another miracle cure, at the start of season 9. Please, NO. Don’t go there, Carver![/quote]

       [b]St50[/b], I’m with you on pretending that some of the first 10 episodes of S8 don’t exist and I”m also with you in wanting the writers to make some link between this week’s Sam Winchester and the very out-of-character Sam Winchester we saw in the early part of this season. I genuinely can’t get it straight in my head why Sam would not look for Dean after Dean was zapped into Purgatory. Also, the way Sam was written in the early part of this season is melting my head because I really like a Sam who cares about Dean (and a Dean who cares about Sam) and for the first 10 episodes I wasn’t seeing that in either brother 🙁

       Actually, because of Sam and Dean’s out-of-character behaviour in this season (and in parts of S7) I wasn’t sure that Sam would say anything in response to Dean’s big admission as to why he wanted to be the one to kill the Hellhound. I was VERY relieved to see Sam talking to Dean about the issue and to see Sam trying to convince Dean to change his mind. I really didn’t want to see the brothers competing for a suicide mission!

       No offence intended when I say YUCK to the season ender you’ve speculated about here 😡 I really hope that Amelia is [u]gone, gone, gone[/u] and we never see her again (I wish her a very happy life with her husband). Also, I think we could be doing with less of the “Cas saves the day with a miracle, instant cure” for any corner the writers have written the Winchesters into, so I’m also hoping that doesn’t happen at the end of this season *crosses fingers*

       Reply

       1. Haha, Ciar.
          No offence taken! I wrote that as a VERY YUCK season ender. No way do I want to see any of that actually happen.
          😉

          Reply

       2. [quote] I really hope that Amelia is [u]gone, gone, gone[/u] and we never see her again (I wish her a very happy life with her husband). [/quote]
          I second that! Be gone, be gone, be gone, be gone, be gone, be gone, be gone!

          [quote] Also, I think we could be doing with less of the “Cas saves the day with a miracle, instant cure” for any corner the writers have written the Winchesters into, so I’m also hoping that doesn’t happen at the end of this season *crosses fingers*[/quote]

          For writers, there is no corner literally. They can even break the four wall and corner. 😀 Creativity is endless, if only you know how to utilize it. It’s their choice of how and where will they bring this story is really at work.

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16. A truly wonderful episode; the last few episodes have had a warmth to them that has been missing for some time.

    I found what Sam said to Dean at the end of the episode an interesting reversal in roles between the brothers –

    “I see light at the end of this tunnel and I’m sorry you don’t, I am, but it’s there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it.”

    In earlier seasons, Dean has always been the one guiding Sam from darkness to light. No more so than at the end of Season 6 when the wall came down in Sam’s mind; Dean shining the flashlight in Sam’s eye, representing a beacon, sending him along the proper path.

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17. Loved this episode – have loved all of season 8 episodes but the last three have been superior.

    Yes the two speeches between the brothers were a major highlight but I have to say that I agree with Sam. I returned to college in the past two years (even though I am in my late 30s) and one of the first classes I took was on how to succeed in college. The main point they stressed was attitude. If you go into a class or task expecting to fail, then more than likely you will. I am assuming that this philosophy holds true with the whole going into a mission thinking it is a suicide mission that is what the outcome will be. However if you go in expecting to succeed and live, the chances of survival increase.

    Keep up the good work Supernatural and Mr. Carver!

    Reply

18. I liked this episode a lot… maybe not love, not quite, but lots of like for many reasons; Dean’s room (his mattress remembers him!) and he’s nesting AW!.

    I felt that this ep has rejuvenated the tablet story and I love the direction that this is going in. I am glad that it is Sam that is doing the trials; I know that many were hoping that it would be Dean, thereby connecting him directly to the myth arc, but I feel that Sam feels he has something to prove and maybe feels a need to redeem himself and so I am glad that it is him. I loved his speech to Dean at the end about wanting to perform the trials and live. Sam has always felt that way, always wanted to get to the end of the task and work to change the way that they live, and he wants Dean to believe that it can happen and most of all he wants Dean to trust him and believe in him, something that I am not sure Dean has ever done, not entirely.

    There were some things that I found were a bit off and maybe a little awkward though. The smooth flow of scenes was just not there this week the way it was in BE script and the secondary characters were not nearly as fleshed out or interesting as in EHH. And why does Andrew Dabb like to give Dean such snarky dialogue all the time? I don’t find it endearing or humorous, I find it irritating, especially after how well Dean was written in EHH. And when did we return to depression Dean? I thought purgatory had ‘invigorated’ him, helped rejuvenate him and helped him to see that his purpose was in hunting. Now all of a sudden we are back to suicidal Dean? And why can’t Sam see that Dean needs to know that SAM needs Dean to live? Dean seems to think that he can sacrifice himself for the greater good and then Sam will be able go on to have this fantasy normal life that Dean has concocted in his head. I think it would help Dean enormously to know that Sam wants and even needs Dean to live.. that Sam can’t go on without him. The whole ‘Sam didn’t look for Dean’ debacle, has seriously undermined the brother’s knowledge of their commitment to one another, in particular Sam’s commitment to Dean and how necessary Dean is to Sam. I really wish the writers would fix this! They came close here, but didn’t go far enough IMO.

    Ok, one little speculation thing; when Dean was talking to Ellie about her demon deal, and she suddenly heard the hell hound and saw Dean’s face morph and change (cool effect BTW), did anyone else think that this was maybe a hint of something big coming down the pipe line plot wise? I mean… in No Rest for the Wicked it was firmly established that Dean could see the true faces of demons because he was peaking through the veil and could see the demon’s true form. Did anyone else think that maybe Ellie was seeing Dean’s true form? Maybe more happened to Dean in Purgatory then we know of? I don’t want to think that tptb used this idea here just because it would be a cool effect as it would contradict canon and the set up in Season 3. How awesome if Dean was maybe turning a little because of his time in Hell and Purgatory? Just a speculation. What do you think?

    Reply

    1. [quote]
       The whole ‘Sam didn’t look for Dean’ debacle, has seriously undermined the brother’s knowledge of their commitment to one another, in particular Sam’s commitment to Dean and how necessary Dean is to Sam. I really wish the writers would fix this! They came close here, but didn’t go far enough IMO.

       [/quote]

       Yes,E! This is exactly what I feel the writers “broke”, and what I need them to “fix” in season 8.

       As far as the effects… Dean saw Sam’s face morph like this (although far cooler this time) before he went to hell in season 3, so I’m not sure it is foreshadowing anything.

       Reply

       1. I understand this complaint . . . I do. And yes the Sam of 5 seasons ago would have tried everything to find Dean but I keep coming to the point that there was no where for Sam to find the answer.

          Sam did not have the option of bargaining with Hell this time. He even told Dean on this week’s show that they could not call a crossroad demon because it would be a beacon to Crowley. And Crowley did tell him at the end of last season that he was on his own and seemed thrilled with that idea so there was no bargaining chip big enough for Sam to offer for help from that department. As for heaven, Cas is their only link there and he disappeared with Dean. Even with Bobby’s help, there was very little lore found on Leviathans . . . they even found the borax cure by accident. They needed the tablet and Kevin to find out how to kill them. Yes, he could have tried finding Kevin and if he had had his phones on him would have realized that Kevin had escaped. But on the other hand, how realistic to Sam was this an option. Kevin at the time was an advanced placement high school kid with no survival skills. So this option was in Crowley’s hands also and once again Sam had no bargaining chip.

          Sam literally in my mind had no place to turn so in his grief, he turned his back on hunting (the one thing that took his whole family away) and ran.

          Yes, the writers could have explained this in more details for the fans to make them happier and to appease Dean but I (as a viewer) hate having every little detail spelled out to me. I like when the writers trust the fans enough to leave them to fill in the blanks.

          Someone mentioned last week that Amelia’s storyline was needed so that Sam could realize that even the normal life he has always craved was missing something which allowed him to embrace the whole Men of Letter destiny. It has given him a fulfillment or a purpose that even the normal life could not do. It was very telling to me when Dean asked him in this episode what he was researching and he replied “everything.” Sam has always thirsted for knowledge (you have to be that way to fast track through college). He definitely looked happier to me in this episode with the research materials than he did in any of his flashbacks with Amelia.

          Reply

          1. I normally steer clear of this topic, given the strong opinions, but couldn’t agree with you more, Beverly. Given everything that happened since he (and later, his soul) got back from hell, Sam needed to save himself first; this was probably the most mature decision given the circumstances; it was also something they promised each other they would do. I didn’t recall the level of bitterness/anger when Dean went off to live with Lisa and Ben, and was reluctant to go back in to hunting when Soulless Sam came back. Anytime one of the brothers went off the deep end to save the other one, there were dire consequences (Dean going to hell and breaking the first seal, Sam hooking up with Ruby / killing Lilith / raising Lucifer /bringing about the Apocalype, etc.).

             And you’re right about Crowley; he was never one to underestimate the Winchesters and had them exactly where he wanted them, out of the way and off his back.

             Regarding Amelia, I am hoping this is what J.C. and the writers had intended; the story always seemed a little off and Sam always seemed to be missing something.

             Reply

             1. [quote]Yes, the writers could have explained this in more details for the fans to make them happier and to appease Dean but I (as a viewer) hate having every little detail spelled out to me. I like when the writers trust the fans enough to leave them to fill in the blanks.
                .[/quote]

                Alright, I said I was going to stop talking about this but what can I say my resolve is weak. That’s why I’m not a size 6.

                I don’t need every little things spelled out for me either, many still complain we didn’t get enough explanation of Sam S4 either, but I felt I got enough to see why he did what he did. We saw his heartbreak, he was suicidal, drinking too much…. It was enough for me to make assumptions about the rest (others don’t agree and sure I could of seen more but it was enough for me). But this time around we got pretty nothing and in many ways the offense is worse and it is definitely further away from Sam’s, so I NEED to see why he came to those decisions.

                [quote]I didn’t recall the level of bitterness/anger when Dean went off to live with Lisa and Ben, and was reluctant to go back in to hunting when Soulless Sam came back.

                Regarding Amelia, I am hoping this is what J.C. and the writers had intended; the story always seemed a little off and Sam always seemed to be missing something.[/quote]

                The difference between Sam this season and Dean S6 is because the way they wrote it protected Dean from the backlash. We saw his devastation in SS and then in EoMS that brief Montage showed us enough of his life that we could say yes he had started a new life but he was still could never let go of Sam. Then they had him say he was still working of the impossible, he was still trying to get Sam out.

                With Sam this year we got none of that. And I really do need for that to be resolved for me not to want to write off the first half of the season. Because as much as I loved many of the episodes, it really damages how I see Sam in their relationship, which is THE major component of the show.

                If he can so easily move on, then why would [i]I[/i] be so invested in their relationship? It is extremely damaging to the show and to Sam’s character. So yeah, I need them to fix it.

                I’m still hoping this is part of plan and I will continue to hope that until last episode but if not I probably will not watch the first half again. Because it will make me less invested in the series as a whole.

             2. [quote]If he can so easily move on, then why would I be so invested in their relationship?[/quote]

                I don’t know that it was so easy for Sam to move on. Sure, we didn’t seem him keening in grief or hitting the bottle or anything like that…but what we did see was Sam clinging to a messy relationship with a damaged woman and making the best life for himself that he could under the circumstances. The lack of demonstrative affection on his part throughout the flashbacks is, at least to me, a testament to the fact that he holding back due to grief. Additionally, someone mentioned somewhere that Sam is more “cerebral” than Dean. Very inside his own head. If there was no where for Sam to turn, nothing he could think of to do to find his brother, I find very in character for him to come to logical conclusion that all he could do was move on. Not that he wasn’t torn up about it – though I think both brothers’ emotions have been a bit blunted over the years from repeated trauma – just that he wasn’t going to respond in the same destructive ways he has in the past. Does that mean he cares for Dean any less? I would say no. People grieve and cope in vastly different ways. In some cases, it may be more destructive, in others, it may be merely noticeable that something is off. And we all noticed things that were ‘off’ in Sam’s relationship with Amelia.

                The only thing I think should be explained more clearly is the figure standing outside of Amelia’s house the night Sam left. Everything else I feel like I’m okay with, though I certainly wouldn’t object if they fleshed things out further.

             3. Bamboo24 good points, very well put. As far as Sam’s story a light bulb went off in my head today (maybe I was just WAY late to this party) but as I was commenting I wrote “Sam did not leave hunting for Amelia…” I think in the beginning this year we were left to see Sam left hunting because of Amelia. But that is not the truth, he already quit before he met her. That “duh” moment for me leaves a much better opinion of how their story played out. They never were supposed to be a great love story (at least not for Sam), and their whole relationship never really clicked–but I see now that was because Sam was in his alternate reality at that time, and subconsciously knew he was really just hiding out, and Amelia was more a friend and confidant that a future Mrs. Winchester. Amelia showing up at the empty hotel room shows us her feelings were different–she may need to check her reality too–but Sam really hasn’t looked back since.

             4. This demonstrates my big issue with seeing the show so much from Dean’s POV. When Dean asked why Sam didn’t look, he didn’t give Sam a chance to answer, he just asked if there was a girl. Sam said there was, then there wasn’t and then he said but that doesn’t matter because I found something that I never had before. But Sam never gets to SAY that something was. Was it the dog? Prozac? Meditation and yoga? Tension Tamer Tea? A great stash of marijuana?

                Dean lasers in on it being a girl and that is the only information we get on Sam. Whenever Dean blames Sam for not looking for him he accuses Sam of doing it because of a girl. So we, the viewers, only hear that it was the girl, Amelia, that was the important part. Never mind that Sam said that the girl wasn’t the important part, or that he found something he never had before. The only thing we hear about is the reason Dean jumped to. To this day, I really have no idea what Sam found that he never had before. It couldn’t be Amelia, because he had had Jess. I guess he could have decided he LOVED fixing air conditioners and unplugging sinks, but we don’t know, because Sam has been kept silent on what he found during the year Dean was gone.

             5. [quote]But Sam never gets to SAY that something was. Was it the dog? Prozac? Meditation and yoga? Tension Tamer Tea? A great stash of marijuana? [/quote]

                I was pretty sure Sam did say what it was: a normal life.

             6. [quote]I was pretty sure Sam did say what it was: a normal life[/quote]

                No he didn’t. Here’s the transcript

                [quote]DEAN ?Hmm. So what was it, hmm? What could possibly make you stop just like that? A girl? Was there a girl?

                ?SAM? [b]The girl had nothing to do with it.
                [/b]
                ?DEAN? There was a girl.

                ?SAM? Yeah. There was. And then there wasn’t. Any more questions?

                SAM? Listen, I know this is gonna sound crazy to you. I don’t even necessarily need you to understand. But…you need to know. I didn’t just drop out, Dean. I found something. [b]Something I’ve… never had all my life.[/b]

                ?DEAN is on the floor leaning against the other bed, with his back to SAM.

                ?DEAN? Yeah, what was her name?

                ?SAM ?Amelia.
                ?DEAN? So, what, you, uh, you dropped your peanut butter in her chocolate? How’d it happen?

                ?SAM? I hit a dog.
                ?DEAN turns to look at SAM and points a finger at him.
                ?DEAN? I knew I smelled dog.
                [/quote]

                Dean is fixated on the fact there was a girl. Sam says there was one and then there wasn’t. What was he supposed to do, deny that he had a relationship with Amelia? But
                Sam says from the word go that [b]The girl had nothing to do with it.[/b] He says he found something he never had before. The transcript is here [url]http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=8.01_We_Need_to_Talk_About_Kevin_%28transcript%29[/url]. I searched the entire thing. The word normal never comes up. So Sam tell Dean he found something he never had before, that although there was a girl during the past year, she had nothing to do with what he found and Dean ignores it and grabs onto the girl being the reason Sam didn’t hunt.

                This is very like the Pilot. In the Pilot Dean tells Sam he left them for normal. Sam retorts that he didn’t want normal he wanted SAFE. Yes 9 years later, Sam is still getting accused of only wanting normal. Fandom has decided that Sam could not POSSIBLY know what he wanted when he left. That only Dean’s interpretation was valid. The same thing happens in the conversation of Sam’s choices here. What Dean decides happened is accepted as gospel. Sam’s declaration that the girl had nothing to do with it is ignored. And the writers compound the problem by never permitting Sam to tell us WHAT he found that was different. They just allow Dean to go on about how Sam left him for a girl.

             7. No, no, no. You’re right, but that’s not what I was referring to.

                In “Heartache”, Sam says: [i]”Dean, the year that I took off, I had something I’ve never had. A normal life. I mean, I got to see what that felt like. I want that. I had that.”[/i]

             8. percysowner,
                As Jeremy Carver said before the season, he wanted to deal with perception. The boys, and I now believe the viewers as well. Amelia was NOT the reason Sam left hunting. So many of the posts here hated her because she was seen as the reason Sam quit and never looked for Dean. That is the perception we had, but I don’t think that is the case anymore. Most of us assumed that, and assumed is a dangerous word! What Sam has found (BEFORE Men of Letters) was his Huntuing life. I believe he would have returned to it if Dean never came back. Sam ran away from this life when Dean left, and Amelia–who was also running from her reality–helped Sam find his way back to Hunting, and back to Dean (since Dean was actually alive and back).
                What is missing is what Sam did between Dean and Cas going away, and when he brought the dog to Amelia. We have never seen any of that.

             9. I totally agree here. Sam did not leave hunting for Amelia. I hope the writers are playing with the viewers perceptions as well as Sam and Dean’s. I desperately want them to explore the time between Dean gong POOF and hitting the dog. That is very important to understanding Sam’s state of mind.

             10. Except that it wasn’t that messy. And “lack of demonstrative affection” is a little to subtle for me. Yes, Sam is cerebral but he has been shown to be very emotional when heartbroken. Yes he and Dean emotions have been blunted, but nothing anyone says to me will get me to believe that there was no outward expression of grief and loss when he lost the person who means more than anything to him. Even if that expression is that he completely shut down. But again if that was what they were going for, it was WAY to subtle. Besides if he did shut down, he wouldn’t have gotten involved with Amelia. But the truth is we have no clue what happened because they didn’t show us anything.

                 And regardless it is a TV show they have to find someway to express that grief to the audience in order for it to be believable. Things being “off” with Amelia is not enough to cut it. Not when dealing with this relationship. It is the lynchpin of the show, so we have to know BOTH characters are equally invested or the whole show doesn’t work.

             11. KELLY,
                 Things being “off”with Amelia is more Sam’s mindset than anything. She was a helpful distraction for Sam delaying dealing with all of his emotions. It makes sense they would get together, she helped Sam on his path back to hunting. I believe Sam knew his only choice, and the one he would clearly make, was returning to hunting (or in this case as the way things turned out, return to Dean as well). Amelia was far more into Sam that Sam was into her, to put it in a 90210 phrase. We don’t know the actual amout of time from when Cas and Dean went poof, to Sam taking the dog to Amelia, so you are right we have not been shown what Sam did during that time. I hope we DO get to see that. But anything we have seen starting with the visit to Amelia’s vet clinic, it sounds like you want sobbing and empty boxes of Kleenex all over the hotel room. That is not Sam’s style (or Dean’s) as we have seen many times in 8 years.

             12. Nate, I don’t need the sobbing, but I do need a lot more than what we got. I just posted one to Beverly about MS, something like that would be fine.

             13. It was also clearly depicted that Dean couldn’t be fully happy in his life with Lisa, was having nightmares and drinking all the time, because he was in grief over Sam, and oh he NEVER stopped trying to find a way to save him!
                 As for that promise not to look for eachother, no such promise was ever made, Carver just throw that in for the hell of it.
                 I’m sorry to sound grumpy, but some of you keep throwing up the whole Lisa/Ben thing in comparison when it was shown that it was not in any way the same.

             14. roxi, I think if you’ll read more closely you’ll see the Dean/Lisa example being used as a complaint against Sam’s storyline. BECAUSE they wrote that Dean never stopped trying to get Sam out, but they threw Sam to the wolves but saying he never looked for his brother at all. That was the point. Not that Dean had a fully happy life with Lisa.

          2. I’m glad you (and many others) can accept it, Beverly. I can’t. I don’t need the writers to fill in every blank. I need them to sell the ideas they are proposing. And that’s where they failed, imo.

             Ruby and Bobby knew how to locate demons, so Sam would’ve known how, too. Sam could have tracked Crowley, and I think it much more in character that he’d have gone on a suicide mission to attempt Kevin’s rescue than to “give in to his grief” and do nothing. Or worse, attempt to find happiness, knowing Kevin was being tormented.

             There are many fanfics out there where Sam uses a believable way to attempt to find Dean, so I’m sure the writers could have come up with something even better.

             Carver simply decided to see what this would look like, and then never fully developed or sold it, imo. So unless they come back to this again, this is where he’s failed as show-runner, for me.

             Reply

             1. [quote]I’m glad you (and many others) can accept it, Beverly. I can’t. I don’t need the writers to fill in every blank. I need them to sell the ideas they are proposing. And that’s where they failed, imo.[/quote]
                Exactly!

                I could even take that Sam had a mental breakdown, esp after last year, but if so I need to see that in order to buy what they haven’t even bothered trying to sell. At this point, they’ve pretty much just said accept without explanation.

             2. I couldn’t agree more w/you, [b]st50[/b], esp. your last paragraph.

                Carver, IMO, didn’t even try to tell a story about Sam not searching for Dean. He didn’t bother to show Sam’s devastation at Dean’s loss. In the FBs, we got a few vague lines about running and his world imploding but we didn’t see it, so it rang hollow for many people.

                Imagine the season opening w/a distraught Sam muttering to himself about how he just can’t take this anymore, and then leaving. Such a scene would have allowed some viewers to empathize with Sam and better understand his position. This is a drama. If Sam’s world “imploded,” then I wanted to see it. Sam hanging around the boring Amelia and fixing radiators and kitchen sinks is NOT showing me his devastation at Dean’s loss. Carver skipped the most interesting part of Sam’s year – the part where he was lost, distraught, in grief, and decided to hang it up.

                That;’s what I needed to see.

          3. Quoting Beverly;
             [quote]Yes, the writers could have explained this in more details for the fans to make them happier and to appease Dean but I (as a viewer) hate having every little detail spelled out to me. I like when the writers trust the fans enough to leave them to fill in the blanks. [/quote]

             I think that this is a pretty good interpretation of what Sam was going through, and I do pretty much agree that he did, in fact, have no where to turn after Dean disappeared. And I know that it’s pretty tiresome to have everything spelled out for us in a nice neat little package like we can’t think. And yet, we know absolutely nothing about this whole plot point. For me its not about having everything spelled out, its about not having any detail at all. Sam didn’t even tell Dean that he didn’t look for him, it was inferred by Dean, not voiced by Sam. There has to be a difference between spelling everything out and providing no detail whatsoever. Without knowing WHY Sam didn’t look he has no motivation for anything he has been doing for the past 10 episodes. I need more information than that to be satisfied that they haven’t taken Sam down this meaningless road simply for the sake of the plot, ignoring canon and damaging his character in the process.

             Reply

             1. [quote]I need more information than that to be satisfied that they haven’t taken Sam down this meaningless road simply for the sake of the plot, ignoring canon and damaging his character in the process.[/quote]

                Unfortunately, I think that’s where we are. Carver wanted to explore what would happen if Sam didn’t look for Dean. I believe in Carver’s mind he explored it. That exploration didn’t convey very well to a lot of us, but I believe Carver is happy w/the story he told.

          4. Hi [b]Beverly[/b], my feelings about Sam in the first part of S8 are the same as [b]St50[/b] and [b]E[/b] – I agree with you that we don’t need a vast amount of detail of what Sam went through in his year alone but I do want a believable Sam Winchester. The writers didn’t sell me on the idea that Sam couldn’t do anything to try and find Dean, nor did they sell me on the idea that Dean and Sam had decided they wouldn’t help each other if one of them was lost.

             Fanfiction writers have come up with quite a few credible solutions to the problem Sam had when Dean ‘disappeared’, so I can’t understand why the SPN writers came up with such a lemon of a story that made Sam seem completely different to the Sam Winchester we’ve known for the previous 7 seasons 😕

             For me, the writers’ choice to concentrate on Sam’s life with Amelia did the character of Sam a disservice and it made him seem heartless, in that he was off searching for a normal life while others were suffering. Also, the way Sam was written for a lot of those early S8 episodes (and the content of Sam’s flashbacks) didn’t adequately show Sam’s emotional reaction to the loss of Dean, which also served to show Sam in a bad light. When Sam was trapped in the Cage we saw Dean trying to carry out his promise to Sam (to live a normal life) but we were also shown that Dean was crumbling under the weight of losing Sam (and under the weight of carrying out that promise) and Dean’s pain was shown by the writers. This made Dean’s decision to live with Lisa much more understandable to the viewers. (By the way, I don’t favour one Winchester brother over the other so I’m not approaching this from a position of feeling that one brother gets better treatment plotwise than the other)

             It feels strange to me that SPN writers, who know how much the shows’ fans love angst, didn’t take the chance to examine Sam’s emotional turmoil at losing Dean.

             Reply

             1. In response to the Sam comments, I don’t think Sam was searching for a perfect life in his year away from Dean. He met Amelia after he had left hunting, he did not leave because of her. I would not call their life (or Sam’s) perfect. Amelia was hiding from reality the same way Sam was. They sort of went through the motions together (dating, then living together), and I think Sam knew this was not “reality” but he was hiding from his hunting, his life without Dean, but always knew this new “reality” he had was not real at all, and he would be brought back into hunting. That is what his speech in “Hunter Heroici” was all about. What WAS missing was more of an explanation of WHY Sam did not look. I was hoping in “Citizen Fang” the reason Martin was working with Sam was because Sam had returned to the mental hospital, because he had some kind of break after Dean left. Or something like that. I also don’t accept “I just quit” as his reason. This far into Season 8, it would almost be too late to have a reveal like that, but I am STILL hoping we get something more. We did get his comments on Dean to Amelia’s father, but I also agree I would have liked to see more emotion from Sam. We may revisit all of this because if I recall it has NOT been made clear why Sam left in the middle of the night and went to meet Dean? And the figure that was watching Sam the night he left?

             2. [quote]I don’t think Sam was searching for a perfect life in his year away from Dean. He met Amelia after he had left hunting, he did not leave because of her. I would not call their life (or Sam’s) perfect. Amelia was hiding from reality the same way Sam was. They sort of went through the motions together (dating, then living together), and I think Sam knew this was not “reality” but he was hiding from his hunting, his life without Dean, but always knew this new “reality” he had was not real at all, and he would be brought back into hunting. That is what his speech in “Hunter Heroici” was all about. What WAS missing was more of an explanation of WHY Sam did not look. [/quote]

                YES.

             3. [quote]In response to the Sam comments, I don’t think Sam was searching for a perfect life in his year away from Dean. He met Amelia after he had left hunting, he did not leave because of her. I would not call their life (or Sam’s) perfect. Amelia was hiding from reality the same way Sam was. They sort of went through the motions together (dating, then living together), and I think Sam knew this was not “reality” but he was hiding from his hunting, his life without Dean, but always knew this new “reality” he had was not real at all, and he would be brought back into hunting. That is what his speech in “Hunter Heroici” was all about.

                What WAS missing was more of an explanation of WHY Sam did not look. I was hoping in “Citizen Fang” the reason Martin was working with Sam was because Sam had returned to the mental hospital, because he had some kind of break after Dean left. Or something like that. I also don’t accept “I just quit” as his reason. This far into Season 8, it would almost be too late to have a reveal like that, but I am STILL hoping we get something more.

                We did get his comments on Dean to Amelia’s father, but I also agree I would have liked to see more emotion from Sam. We may revisit all of this because if I recall it has NOT been made clear why Sam left in the middle of the night and went to meet Dean? And the figure that was watching Sam the night he left?[/quote]

                Hi [b]Nate[/b], moments after posting my comment, I edited it to say that I felt Sam was searching for a normal life rather than a perfect life. So we agree on that issue 🙂

                I absolutely concur that there has not been enough of an explanation as to WHY Sam didn’t look for Dean. I like your idea that Martin’s appearance in the season could have been used as an interesting signal that Sam had suffered some sort of mental breakdown during Dean’s year in Purgatory. That could have been a chance for Sam to receive some help from professionals to deal with the trauma of Dean being gone and, perhaps, the effects of the Lucifer-induced hallucinations he suffered. I know what you mean when you say that, despite it being quite far along in the season, it would be great to get some sort of exploration of the Sam’s year without Dean issue. I mean, there were lots of behaviours Sam was exhibiting in eps 1-10 that have not been sufficiently explored or explained: his aloofness to Dean, his much stronger than usual panicking when Dean was in trouble, his instant hostility to Benny to name but a few. I was hoping that these things were deliberate and intentional on behalf of the show’s writers and would be leading somewhere and would give us a bit of insight into Sam’s year without Dean. But, so far, I’m still lost as to what they were signalling with these things.

                From watching the season so far, I *think* Sam left in the middle of the night to go to Rufus’ cabin because that’s the night he broke up with Amelia (after Don’s return) but I’m not 100% sure that is the reason (which is frustrating and makes me think the writers aren’t being as clear about some things as they could be). I would also like to know who the man standing outside their house was. I’m confused as to whether or not SPN would link back to that issue after so much of the season has passed.

             4. I am sure we will get to the shadow figure. Maybe in the season ender? I hope not that long! Good points above. I am hoping the questions above are answered.

             5. Like Nate, I hope they answer these excellent questions. I remember watching the first episode and thinking – what [i]is[/i] going on? That is a fine so long as you don’t tease out the explanations too long!

             6. [quote]In response to the Sam comments, I don’t think Sam was searching for a perfect life in his year away from Dean. He met Amelia after he had left hunting, he did not leave because of her. I would not call their life (or Sam’s) perfect. Amelia was hiding from reality the same way Sam was. They sort of went through the motions together (dating, then living together), and I think Sam knew this was not “reality” but he was hiding from his hunting, his life without Dean, but always knew this new “reality” he had was not real at all, and he would be brought back into hunting. That is what his speech in “Hunter Heroici” was all about. [/quote]

                I agree that Hunteri Heroici strongly suggested Sam’s life with Amelia was an illusion and not the kind of relationship that would have survived if Sam had chosen it. That Amelia had huge issues and that both of them were avoiding processing their losses.

                However, exactly how did that play out in real time once the flashbacks were over? The last flashback introduced Don and from then on, Sam concentrated on what was fair to Don and fair to him and fair to Amelia, not processing grief for Dean or evaluating how real his “real life” actually was.

                We didn’t see him examining his perception of his real life, the way Dean had to examine his perception of failing Castiel. His discussion with Amelia consisted of what was fair to Don, not what the pull of his other life was. His discussion with Dean consisted of how lucky he would be to be with Amelia and how much he was giving up to stay with his duty.

                Like some others, I have no problem with filling in some details, but I’m not happy having to fill in complete motivations because what’s on screen is so unbelievable. Dean actually dealt with his fear of having failed Castiel. He dealt with his jealousy of Sam being able to separate himself from his job. He dealt with feeling Sam leaving meant Sam abandoning him and actually gave him space to make his own choices. He dealt with the need to acknowledge to Sam how hurtful his text was. We know this because it was all on screen. So different from Sam’s story line.

                I think the first half of the season failed to follow through on examining everything that we now need to believe about Sam’s feelings. And it didn’t need to be that way. If they’d ditched the triangle story and instead had Sam have the same kind of epiphanies about perception we saw Dean have, the development of Sam’s happiness with the MOL and need to save Dean from his willingness to sacrifice himself would be so much smoother.

                Instead, I have to forget most of Sam’s story line in the first half to appreciate what we have now. Which, fortunately, I think is wonderful and am willing to make work in my mind. (-:

             7. I agree with you on all counts.

             8. Gerry,
                I think the comments you make about seeing Sam’s grief for Dean not being shown are accurate, but maybe the timeline is not. Here is my take, and please everyone let me know if I am off somewhere in the timeline.
                IMO, Sam’s grief period we have NOT seen at all. In the timeline, Dean and Cas disappeared when Dick Roman was killed. The last we see is Sam standing there, alone. The next time WE see Sam in the timeline is when he brings the dog to Amelia. That is the first flashback we get of Sam. SO—what happened from the time Dean disappeared, to the time Sam takes in the dog? THAT is what we have not seen, not heard discussed, not been explained why Sam quit, did not look for Dean, etc. To me that is the golden puzzle piece that is missing from Season 8. I don’t feel like we’ve been given an acceptable answer. Here is what would be acceptable to me:
                1. Sam thought Dean was dead. This would be a stretch since both brothers have literally been to Hell and back, and are still alive. If Dean went POOF with Cas, Sam should think Dean is somewhere, with Cas, and I need to find out where they are and get them back. I really don’t think Sam would think this time Dean is “for real this time” dead.
                2. Sam had a mental breakdown. Not a Girl, Interrupted / Courtney Love breakdown, but if you consider the timeline again, Sam has been through hell again in his time on Earth since “Swan Song.” Remember how Cas said the wall breaking would be “catastrophic?” We never really saw catastrophic IMO, but hey, Sam has never dealt with anything since “Swan Song.” I thought when Martin was brought back in “Citizen Fang” it would lead to the reveal Sam went to the mental hospital for some rest/clarity, to repair himself mentally, and that is why he did not search for Dean. Nope, we did not get that ?

                However, as you said “However, exactly how did that play out in real time once the flashbacks were over?” that is not when Sam would be dealing with the grief of losing Dean. That should have happened between POOF and DOGGIE RESCUE. We got mentions of Sam’s loss as he spoke with Amelia, and more so her father. Sam dealing with and reacting to his life with Amelia we did see—Sam not returning to the hotel to be with Amelia shows us Sam’s choice. He has not looked back since. Sure he probably loved Amelia, it was hard to leave her, but sub consciously he knew that is how things would end. Sam eventually had to stop dreaming and get back to his REAL reality. He did. If Dean never returned, I believe the result would be the same. In fact, Henry Winchester would have found Sam (next in line blood), told him about the Men of Letter……..

                Here are my questions about the timeline.
                1. How much time passed from Dean and Cas disappearing to when Sam took the dog to Amelia?
                2. Amelia gets the call Don is alive. Sam and Don have the conversation in the bar. Is THAT the night Sam leaves to head to the Cabin? Did he know Dean was there? If he had ditched all his phones, I would think Dean did not have Sam’s number and could not have called or texted saying “I’m here alive, come meet me.”
                3. How does the shadow figure fit into this?

             9. MAYBE the Shadow figure has something to do with Naomi?!?!?!?!

             10. Hi Nate! I think Hunteri Heroici suggested Sam was using his relationship with Amelia to avoid processing his grief about Dean, and Amelia was doing the same about Don.

                 The intro to the second flashback was:

                 “It’s creepy, right? A lot of these people – they just tune out and live in their own heads. It’s like maybe the real world is too much for them, and they just run and hide, you know? “

                 In the flashback, Amelia’s dad says,

                 “I think the two of you are holding on to each other, yeah. ‘Cause I know she’s scared. After what happened to Don, I don’t blame her for taking off. Needing to run away and hide – I know why she did it. The question is – what are you running from, Sam?”

                 Amelia’s dad thinks Amelia has not processed her loss and instead ran away and is using this relationship to hide rather than work through her grief and move forward. He’s suspicious Sam is doing the same.

                 I was totally onboard for this exploration–it gives us the explanation for why we haven’t seen Sam’s grief; it continues the theme of perception, as Sam’s perception of what he has with Amelia is not really what he has and that to move forward he has to acknowledge that.

                 But starting from the end of the last flashback, the emphasis shifted instead to Sam worrying whether he had the right to love Amelia, the right to happiness. I didn’t see any point in the love triangle where Sam realized his life with Amelia was was really an illusion and wouldn’t last even if he chose it. He was worried about Don’s feelings and he was concerned about dumping Kevin Tran for a second time when he’d committed to the quest. He was sure Amelia made him happy, but he didn’t deserve that happiness. His lot is to be a hunter.

                 From Torn and Frayed:

                 “She does make me happy, and she could be waiting for me if I went back. I’d be a very lucky man if she was. But now… with everything staring down at us, with all that’s left to be done… I don’t know.”

                 I don’t see anything about re-evaluating whether what he had with Amelia was real in that or any of the issues the flashbacks in Hunteri Heroici brought up, from perception, illusion or running away from grief. To me, Sam is presenting the relationship as something that makes him happy and that he would be lucky to have if only he didn’t have the duty to the quest.

                 I love where the story is now, but the ride to get there for me has so many potholes I’m just detouring around it.

                 [quote]Gerry,
                 I think the comments you make about seeing Sam’s grief for Dean not being shown are accurate, but maybe the timeline is not. Here is my take, and please everyone let me know if I am off somewhere in the timeline.
                 IMO, Sam’s grief period we have NOT seen at all. In the timeline, Dean and Cas disappeared when Dick Roman was killed. The last we see is Sam standing there, alone. The next time WE see Sam in the timeline is when he brings the dog to Amelia. That is the first flashback we get of Sam. SO—what happened from the time Dean disappeared, to the time Sam takes in the dog? THAT is what we have not seen, not heard discussed, not been explained why Sam quit, did not look for Dean, etc. To me that is the golden puzzle piece that is missing from Season 8. I don’t feel like we’ve been given an acceptable answer. Here is what would be acceptable to me:
                 1. Sam thought Dean was dead. This would be a stretch since both brothers have literally been to Hell and back, and are still alive. If Dean went POOF with Cas, Sam should think Dean is somewhere, with Cas, and I need to find out where they are and get them back. I really don’t think Sam would think this time Dean is “for real this time” dead.
                 2. Sam had a mental breakdown. Not a Girl, Interrupted / Courtney Love breakdown, but if you consider the timeline again, Sam has been through hell again in his time on Earth since “Swan Song.” Remember how Cas said the wall breaking would be “catastrophic?” We never really saw catastrophic IMO, but hey, Sam has never dealt with anything since “Swan Song.” I thought when Martin was brought back in “Citizen Fang” it would lead to the reveal Sam went to the mental hospital for some rest/clarity, to repair himself mentally, and that is why he did not search for Dean. Nope, we did not get that ?

                 However, as you said “However, exactly how did that play out in real time once the flashbacks were over?” that is not when Sam would be dealing with the grief of losing Dean. That should have happened between POOF and DOGGIE RESCUE. We got mentions of Sam’s loss as he spoke with Amelia, and more so her father. Sam dealing with and reacting to his life with Amelia we did see—Sam not returning to the hotel to be with Amelia shows us Sam’s choice. He has not looked back since. Sure he probably loved Amelia, it was hard to leave her, but sub consciously he knew that is how things would end. Sam eventually had to stop dreaming and get back to his REAL reality. He did. If Dean never returned, I believe the result would be the same. In fact, Henry Winchester would have found Sam (next in line blood), told him about the Men of Letter……..

                 Here are my questions about the timeline.
                 1. How much time passed from Dean and Cas disappearing to when Sam took the dog to Amelia?
                 2. Amelia gets the call Don is alive. Sam and Don have the conversation in the bar. Is THAT the night Sam leaves to head to the Cabin? Did he know Dean was there? If he had ditched all his phones, I would think Dean did not have Sam’s number and could not have called or texted saying “I’m here alive, come meet me.”
                 3. How does the shadow figure fit into this?[/quote]

             11. Hi Gerry,
                 I may be misunderstanding when you want to see Sam’s grief in losing Dean. When he left Amelia, went back to the cabin and found Dean, everything after that, there would be no need to grieve for Dean. After the text Dean sent and Sam went running back to Amelia—bringing us “real time” with Amelia for the first time—he would have no need to grieve for Dean either after that. He would have grieved before he met Amelia, something we viewers never saw. Once he met Amelia, his grieving for Dean (should have) already happened, he was probably already moving forward from the grief, and did share his loss with Amelia and her father.
                 In “Hunteri Heroici” I viewed Sam’s speech as Sam talking about getting out of a ‘dream reality’ and get back to ‘real reality.’ He did not use Amelia to avoid processing Dean, rather she was a distraction about leaving Hunting and that life. I feel Sam had guilt about abandoning his Hunting life, and guilt about not looking for Dean. Amelia made it easier to push that guilt away, push his ‘real reality’ away, and live in his ‘dream reality.’ I say dream in no way thinking the life Sam was living with Amelia was the much mentioned “Apple Pie life the boys talked about before.
                 “It’s creepy, right? A lot of these people – they just tune out and live in their own heads. It’s like maybe the real world is too much for them, and they just run and hide, you know? “
                 In a nutshell that is Amelia and Sam’s relationship. Once Amelia was in the picture again, I think it is human nature to still second guess what I feel was Sam’s instinct, which was he knew Hunting would be the ultimate winner, the turn he would make in his path. “Am I worthy of her love?” Do I deserve to be happy?” Those are fair questions. I don’t see Sam/Amelia/Don as a love triangle , it was (and always was) about Sam figuring things out and getting back on track. Why he was thrown OFF track, I still want an answer to that. For Amelia, it was a love triangle, and she chose Sam. She has a load of issues to work out, but I hope she does it off camera, and wish her the best ? Sam’s decision is typical about anyone that has to make a touch decision. We go back and forth, change our minds 100 times, but in the end we chose what our instinct already knew. Sam has not looked back since his decision, to me that shows he also knows he made the right choice and is happy with it.
                 Just how I see things, sorry if I ramble ? I see your points too, and they are good ones.

             12. [quote]Hi Gerry,
                 I may be misunderstanding when you want to see Sam’s grief in losing Dean.”

                 Hi Nate, I wanted the writers to follow up on the strong suggestion Amelia’s dad made in Hunteri Heroici that Sam and Amelia were using their relationship to avoid really processing their grief. Stan thought Amelia had run away rather than face grieving and that wasn’t healthy and he suspected Sam was doing the same. There’s no reason to think Sam could only grieve right after Dean disappeared, if he did indeed use his relationship with Amelia to push the grief underground. If so, he’d then need to acknowledge that and face the feelings he was running from and he could do that at whatever point he realized what his relationship really meant. Amelia could have realized the same thing for herself with Don, which would have played much better for me than lying to and cheating on Don with Sam.

                 “. I feel Sam had guilt about abandoning his Hunting life, and guilt about not looking for Dean. “

                 When did we see Sam evaluating this as he assessed his relationship with Amelia? He clearly felt some guilt about abandoning Kevin in particular once Dean came back (not before), but he firmly told Dean he feels no guilt about leaving hunting in general. We saw both discussions he had with Amelia about leaving her and neither centered on Sam’s guilt about hunting or Dean. Nor has he yet expressed any guilt to Dean about not looking for him. I have no resistance to the story line you mention, as I hoped to see it, too, but I didn’t see that play out on screen.

                 “It’s creepy, right? A lot of these people – they just tune out and live in their own heads. It’s like maybe the real world is too much for them, and they just run and hide, you know? “
                 In a nutshell that is Amelia and Sam’s relationship.

                 To me, the flashback set up that possibility, but it was never followed through in real time. Sam never had an epiphany that he using the relationship like this. Dean’s flashbacks led to character growth in real time onscreen–he recognized his warped perception about guilt; he remembered why he shifted from not seeing monsters as people to seeing Benny as a person first, vampire second. The flashbacks moved the story forward.

                 The only part of the HH flashbacks that moved the story in real time forward was the introduction of Don. The illusion/deferred loss suggestions were never acknowledged by Sam. He tells Dean Amelia made him happy and he’d be lucky to be with her, not that he’d clutched to a damaged woman with huge issues because both were running from grief instead of dealing with it. Amelia clearly was not running from grief, because when Don comes back, she still wants Sam. She’s processed Don right out of her heart.

                 “Sam has not looked back since his decision, to me that shows he also knows he made the right choice and is happy with it.”

                 Did you read Bob Singer’s last interview? I won’t say more because it could be seen as spoilery but I’m not at all sure Amelia’s part in this story is over or that Sam is supposed to be happy at leaving Amelia.

             13. Hi again Gerry,
                 I guess I understand now what you mean, but I the story differently.
                 I do have this question for you first. How do you see the timeline from when Dean and Cas disappeared, to when the next time viewers see Sam? My understanding is Sam is left alone right after Dick Roman is killed. The NEXT time we see Sam is when he brings the dog into Amelia. We learn this from the flashback in episode 1 this season. Do you agree with that? If not, how do you see it. If you DO agree, how much time do you think passed from when Dick Roman was killed until Sam brings the dog to Amelia? My guess is a few months, but I can’t be sure because we were never told or shown any of that time.

                 My view of Amelia’s father making the statement about running rather than face something that may be difficult. Amelia’s running was because of a Dean husband. Sam’s was because Dean was gone, but on top of that because he QUIT hunting, AND also (from what we know) did not look for Dean. It was as much the guilt of quitting the hunting life, not looking for Dean, and losing Dean. It was not all related to Dean. Sam quit the family business, something he probably knew he can never really run from, but that is what he was doing, running and hiding from the family business. Yes he grieved Dean the whole time he was with Amelia (he would have the rest of his life) but I believe the bigger fear he was not facing was quitting the family business. As for what Amelia needs to realize, and her actions with Sam post-Don returning, that’s on her. She is a supporting character, so best of luck to her, I wish her well, but honestly could care less what happens to her outside the empty hotel room. Sam mad his choice, it was not her.
                 Sam’s comments on wanting to leave hunting to me speak perfectly to his mindset once Dean returned. Sam was full on confused. I agree he felt bad for leaving Kevin in the dust, but I don’t think it holds a candle to his guilt of not looking for Dean, on top of quitting. Sam and Dean were not at the point yet where they were going to be fully honest with each other—neither were yet being honest with themselves. And hey, it’s a year later and all of the sudden we’re in the cabin together again. A LOT of stuff went down for both, it would take time to get to any honesty.
                 I don’t think Don moved the story into our ‘real time’ time. It was Dean tricking Sam. Sam probably would not have returned to Amelia had Dean not pulled that trick.
                 I did see the interview with Bob Singer. Overall, and much more after the fact, I really understand and enjoyed the Sam / Amelia storyline, but I think it played out. I hope we don’t see her again.
                 Thanks for the conversation!

             14. Me atain!

                 [quote]
                 I do have this question for you first. How do you see the timeline from when Dean and Cas disappeared, to when the next time viewers see Sam?

                 I think it was probably a few months, as Sam had to fix the Impala. And though I can make guesses as to what Sam’s emotional state was, I’ll never know, because the writers did not deem that enough of a story point to give us a flashback.

                 “Amelia’s running was because of a Dean husband. Sam’s was because Dean was gone, but on top of that because he QUIT hunting, AND also (from what we know) did not look for Dean. It was as much the guilt of quitting the hunting life, not looking for Dean, and losing Dean.”

                 I didn’t see anything in the flashbacks suggesting Sam was guilty about quitting hunting. At all. We at least had one reference to Sam missing Dean, though that was tell, not show, which I thought was a mistake.

                 But in terms of hunting, Sam made no effort to turn on his phones and when Dean does, Sam defends his right to reject hunting, if not specifically Kevin. What scene in the flashbacks would you point to that shows Sam feeling guilty about quitting hunting?

                 Dean’s process in letting go of his resentment about Sam not looking for him was admitting he felt jealous that Sam can separate himself from the job,and after he admitted that, he wanted Sam to be happy. Sam said Amelia made him happy. I don’t think we’ve seen anything yet to show Sam doesn’t think that even now.

                 The reason the Men of Letters story line is resonating with so many people, I think, is that it gives Sam a new way to look at his life hunting. It validates his love of learning and makes that a legacy instead of making him different. I really like it. I just don’t like the build up to it.

                 ” I agree he felt bad for leaving Kevin in the dust, but I don’t think it holds a candle to his guilt of not looking for Dean, on top of quitting.”

                 I guess I’m still confused on what scenes in the show portrayed this. I know what scenes show Dean struggling with his guilt about Castiel. I know what scenes show Dean losing his suspicion of Benny and bonding with him. I know which scenes show how difficult it was topside for the two of them to maintain their friendship. But I can’t think of any scenes showing Sam feeling guilty he didn’t look for Dean or for his decision to leave hunting in general (as opposed to admitting he shouldn’t have abandoned Kevin). I can think of scenes where he defended his decisions. I can think of scenes where he explained his motivations about leaving his relationship differently. I can think of scenes where Sam and Dean both spat their buried emotions at each other and Sam’s didn’t involve guilt about his decisions.

                 “I don’t think Don moved the story into our ‘real time’ time. It was Dean tricking Sam. Sam probably would not have returned to Amelia had Dean not pulled that trick. “

                 We saw Sam cyberstalking Amelia when Dean wasn’t around, so he had not made a clean break from Amelia, any more than she’d made a clean break from him. I think it was the reality of Don that kept Sam from contacting Amelia. We saw him feel guilt over Don both times he decided to leave. And if Amelia was not still someone he felt he was involved with, he wouldn’t have made that silly deal with her to take three days to think about whether to resume their relationship. He had ample reason to just say goodbye immediately and leave. She is married.

                 I have enjoyed this chat with you–and what’s odd is that I had very similar expectations after Hunter Heroici as you do. I just don’t think they played out in real time. The love triangle in my opinion was a mistake that muddied Sam’s story line.

             15. What’s even worse for me, [b]Ciar[/b], is they didn’teven sell me on the idea that Sam actually thought Dean was dead! I’ve never passed that initial hurdle, esp. since that wasn’t his train of thinking when S7 ended and he was demanding that Crowley tell him where Dean had gone, so what changed?

                 As others have mentioned, I would have been fine w/Sam not looking [i][b]IF [/b] [/i] Carver had bothered to tell a story to go along w/that plot point. I also had a problem w/the idea that Sam and Amelia were only together b/c they were both grieving when I saw no signs of any grief on their parts! It was just a bad storyline from beginning to end, IMO.

             16. Actually, that’s a good point [b]lala[/b]. Until it was mentioned in a comment here today, I hadn’t come away from watching early S8 with the impression that SPN was trying to get across the idea that Sam thought Dean was actually dead. I’d come away with the impression that Sam thought Dean was unreachable unless Sam used methods that would involve bad things such as selling his soul etc. Given the ending of S7 I’d always assumed that Sam knew Dean had disappeared rather than died. I’m not sure what S8 has done to sell the idea that Sam did something to confirm a suspicion that Dean might be dead rather than displaced. *confused face*

             17. Honestly, [b]Ciar[/b], I don’t know. It’s better for me to think Sam thought Dean was dead than to think Sam didn’t know how to search for clues/Dean simply b/c Bobby died. My brain (and heart) can’t handle that nonsense. Haha! Sam is a better hunter than that!

                 I think you’re right to be confused though b/c the story wasn’t consistent. Sam does mention having no resources, but then he also says: “Nothing says family like the whole family being dead.” So, which is it? It can’t be both. Did he think Dean was dead or did he not search b/c he had no resources?

                 But then if Sam thought Dean had died, why didn’t he just answer Dean’s question. When Dean asks him if he searched, he didn’t say anything. Who wouldn’t respond: “Dean, I thought you had died. I didn’t think there was any point in searching b/c you were in Heaven” or something. Sam says absolutely nothing. I think that’s why he came off as uncaring for many viewers, myself included. I love Sam, but even I thought he was very indifferent to Dean’s return. In fact, at times, he seemed inconvenienced by it. I’m not sure what that was about though. There was no follow up or exploration of any of that, so it’s all pretty meaningless to me.

             18. [quote]Honestly, [b]Ciar[/b], I don’t know. It’s better for me to think Sam thought Dean was dead than to think Sam didn’t know how to search for clues/Dean simply b/c Bobby died. My brain (and heart) can’t handle that nonsense. Haha! Sam is a better hunter than that!

                 I think you’re right to be confused though b/c the story wasn’t consistent. Sam does mention having no resources, but then he also says: “Nothing says family like the whole family being dead.” So, which is it? It can’t be both. Did he think Dean was dead or did he not search b/c he had no resources?

                 But then if Sam thought Dean had died, why didn’t he just answer Dean’s question. When Dean asks him if he searched, he didn’t say anything. Who wouldn’t respond: “Dean, I thought you had died. I didn’t think there was any point in searching b/c you were in Heaven” or something. Sam says absolutely nothing. I think that’s why he came off as uncaring for many viewers, myself included. I love Sam, but even I thought he was very indifferent to Dean’s return. In fact, at times, he seemed inconvenienced by it. I’m not sure what that was about though. There was no follow up or exploration of any of that, so it’s all pretty meaningless to me.[/quote]

                 [b]lala,[/b] I also got a confused idea of what Sam’s reasons were for not looking for Dean AND I was shocked when Sam didn’t answer Dean’s direct question on the matter. It painted Sam in a bad light and it was very out-of-character for Sam.

                 I know what you mean when you say that Sam’s behaviour in early S8 episodes gave the impression of him being indifferent or inconvenienced by Dean’s return. I thought that was very strange behaviour and I’ve read fan explanations (here on WFB) for what might have caused Sam’s behaviour but I think the writers have fallen down on the job if we fans are having to come up with possible justifications for this strange Sam. The Sam we’re getting now is much more a Sam I can understand and a Sam that is actually Sam Winchester, so I’m hoping things continue in this vein and that Sam doesn’t turn into a pod-person again.

             19. [quote]I also had a problem w/the idea that Sam and Amelia were only together b/c they were both grieving when I saw no signs of any grief on their parts! [/quote]

                 People grieve differently. I am a very internal griever. I am upset that the person has died but I show very little emotion. If I do show emotion it is prone to the hysterical side with inappropriate laughter. I very rarely cry at sad scenes in movies.

                 In “Mystery Spot” we saw Sam turn his grief over Dean’s death by becoming obsessive with his tracking of the Trickster and OCD in his every day life. After Dean went to hell, we saw Sam grieve by getting drunk and becoming reckless.

                 In this case, I agree with you that I don’t believe Sam thought Dean was dead just disappeared (Although I have a faint memory of him telling someone that Dean was dead in the first few shows this season. I can’t remember if he phrased it “dead” or “gone” though. Need to rewatch.) But he was still grieving, by running. Truthfully he only stayed put because he was caring for the dog and did not want to move on until he was healed. And then the Amelia situation happened. But the fact that he could not hardly talk about Dean to her dad and the fact that as far as I can tell he ignored bringing up Dean in most of the conversations by name, tells me he was in denial . . . a very big step of grief.

             20. Beverly, Mystery Spot is a perfect example how you can show intense pain with very brief shots and limited dialogue. Other than a short shot of Sam’s face as he held Dean in the parking lot, he was pretty stoical throughout that small set of scenes. But I don’t think anyone watching doubted Sam was completely broken.

                 Which is my point, they didn’t show anything like that, so we have supposition and fan fiction, but that doesn’t work for me in this case.

                 Now my only hope is that it is such a catastrophic oversight that it can only be on purpose. That there is a reason we didn’t even get a brief view inside Sam’s head.

             21. I hear what you’re saying, but I still feel they could have shown Sam grieving in some way. I just didn’t get grief from him. At all. Once his FBs started, they were primarily about Amelia. I didn’t get the sense he was missing Dean or anything like that.

                 Sam would have been better served – IMO – by showing his reaction immediately after the end of S7 and showing us how he reached the conclusions he did (i.e., about Dean being dead). Skipping straight to the romance was the wrong move in my mind.

                 This is a show. I wanted more outward showings of Sam’s grief. Nothing Carver did w/Sam worked for me.

             22. lala2, I agree. Correct me if I am wrong, but the timeline we have been shown is POOF Dean and Cas poof away, the next time TIMELINE-wise we see Sam is taking the dog to Amelia. What we have never seen or discussed is what happened to Sam from POOF to the time he brought in the dog. We have not seen anything in between that huge gap. That is where we would get his grief. I agree with you, I am DYING to see what happened in that time. Maybe they are going to show us before the end of the season? Maybe it is related to the shadow figure that was looking at Sam?

          5. Thank you, thank you,thank you, so much, for posting this Beverly.

             I am one of the few people who has never been angry with Sam for not looking for Dean.You summed up all my reasons very nicely. Crowley had the upper hand at the end of season 7. He had Meg, Kevin, the tablet. For all intents and purposes, in Sam’s mind, Dean was dead and there was no way to get him back..from where? He had no knowledge , no resources and no support. I had to let that go as a topic when Sam said that Hunting killed his entire family, so he ran away from it. End of subject for me.

             I absolutely loved the openiing of this episode. Dean is so house-proud b6aa6 and so proud of all his weaponry. There’s nothing to make you appreciate stabilty than having your own room. It should give Dean some small idea of what Sam wants in life. Also, Dean ‘nesting’ was just too precious. I just love seeing that little boy side of him (and I think Sam likes seeing that too, judging by the smile on his face.)

             I had no idea Dean could cook.

             Favorite line of the night of which there are several: “I like a man who can handle his meat”. (Dean is always a bit discombobulated when people flirt with him.)

             That family was absolutely, densely, stupidly hilarious. Kudos to the country singer for referrring to Sam as ‘Ken-Doll”.

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          6. [quote]Someone mentioned last week that Amelia’s storyline was needed so that Sam could realize that even the normal life he has always craved was missing something which allowed him to embrace the whole Men of Letter destiny. It has given him a fulfillment or a purpose that even the normal life could not do. It was very telling to me when Dean asked him in this episode what he was researching and he replied “everything.” Sam has always thirsted for knowledge (you have to be that way to fast track through college). He definitely looked happier to me in this episode with the research materials than he did in any of his flashbacks with Amelia.[/quote] I agree with you Beverly. I am not one of the fans that is upset because Sam didn’t look for Dean. His life wasn’t filled with happiness with Amelia, they were both damaged and they found each other and comforted each other in that aspect. I think finding the Men of Letters and this new place to live is just a culmination of their lives as hunters and as brothers. Sam is not the only one seeing a light at the end of the tunnel, I think the fans are also. 8)

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          7. [quote]Sam literally in my mind had no place to turn so in his grief, he turned his back on hunting (the one thing that took his whole family away) and ran.
             [/quote]

             [quote]I think that was fairly laid out by Sam’s own wSomeone mentioned last week that Amelia’s storyline was needed so that Sam could realize that even the normal life he has always craved was missing something which allowed him to embrace the whole Men of Letter destiny. It has given him a fulfillment or a purpose that even the normal life could not do. It was very telling to me when Dean asked him in this episode what he was researching and he replied “everything.” Sam has always thirsted for knowledge (you have to be that way to fast track through college). He definitely looked happier to me in this episode with the research materials than he did in any of his flashbacks with Amelia.ords, too. [/quote]

             Great analysis. I agree.

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          8. [quote]I understand this complaint . . . I do. And yes the Sam of 5 seasons ago would have tried everything to find Dean but I keep coming to the point that there was no where for Sam to find the answer.

             Sam did not have the option of bargaining with Hell this time. He even told Dean on this week’s show that they could not call a crossroad demon because it would be a beacon to Crowley. And Crowley did tell him at the end of last season that he was on his own and seemed thrilled with that idea so there was no bargaining chip big enough for Sam to offer for help from that department. As for heaven, Cas is their only link there and he disappeared with Dean. Even with Bobby’s help, there was very little lore found on Leviathans . . . they even found the borax cure by accident. They needed the tablet and Kevin to find out how to kill them. Yes, he could have tried finding Kevin and if he had had his phones on him would have realized that Kevin had escaped. But on the other hand, how realistic to Sam was this an option. Kevin at the time was an advanced placement high school kid with no survival skills. So this option was in Crowley’s hands also and once again Sam had no bargaining chip.

             Sam literally in my mind had no place to turn so in his grief, he turned his back on hunting (the one thing that took his whole family away) and ran.

             Yes, the writers could have explained this in more details for the fans to make them happier and to appease Dean but I (as a viewer) hate having every little detail spelled out to me. I like when the writers trust the fans enough to leave them to fill in the blanks.

             Someone mentioned last week that Amelia’s storyline was needed so that Sam could realize that even the normal life he has always craved was missing something which allowed him to embrace the whole Men of Letter destiny. It has given him a fulfillment or a purpose that even the normal life could not do. It was very telling to me when Dean asked him in this episode what he was researching and he replied “everything.” Sam has always thirsted for knowledge (you have to be that way to fast track through college). He definitely looked happier to me in this episode with the research materials than he did in any of his flashbacks with Amelia.[/quote]

             i agree with you entirely….what i don’t get is this….the first half of the season’s drama seemed pretty contrived to me. i never thought it necessary, but it is what it is….

             thing is, i was guessing that carver brought up all that resentment stuff because they were finally going to deal with dean’s issue. and along with that, sam’s issues, like wanting to be able to decide how he lives instead of having that decision made for him.

             anyway, they had dean all upset and angry for 8 out of ten eppies and then he buried it again. the boys didn’t have it out…what dean was pissed about and then sam’s response, his pov of what really happened the night dean vanished.

             why go through all that and waste such precious time and not have the boys discuss it….it’s again been swept under the rug and the boys seem like nothing ever happened.

             boggles my mind.

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             1. [quote]

                i agree with you entirely….what i don’t get is this….the first half of the season’s drama seemed pretty contrived to me. i never thought it necessary, but it is what it is….

                thing is, i was guessing that carver brought up all that resentment stuff because they were finally going to deal with dean’s issue. and along with that, sam’s issues, like wanting to be able to decide how he lives instead of having that decision made for him.

                anyway, they had dean all upset and angry for 8 out of ten eppies and then he buried it again. the boys didn’t have it out…what dean was pissed about and then sam’s response, his pov of what really happened the night dean vanished.

                why go through all that and waste such precious time and not have the boys discuss it….it’s again been swept under the rug and the boys seem like nothing ever happened.

                boggles my mind.[/quote]

                [b]nappi815[/b], I’m in agreement with you on this matter. I too was hoping the tension and anger in the first 10 episodes of S8 was building up to some sort of big discussion (or fight, seeing that it’s Sam and Dean we’re dealing with here lol). And I was ‘expecting’ that this fight would allow the brothers to air their issues and achieve some sort of resolution. It seems that the writers believe the argument the brothers had over Dean sending the fake text to Sam is all that was needed in order for Sam and Dean to feel like they can rebuild their relationship. I, for one, feel cheated of my hoped-for angsty, emotion-airing scenes between the brothers Winchester.

                I’m glad that Sam and Dean are friends again but I wanted to *see* the *entire* process of them becoming friends again. To my mind, this process seems to have happened off-screen and, while I’m happy that Sam and Dean are best mates again, I wanted to see them having a meaningful talk with each other for the first time in years.

       2. But didn’t Dean only see Sam’s face morph in Yellow Fever? Or was it in both? And at that point could Dean have been seeing Sam’s demon blood heritage? Or am I misremembering?

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          1. [b]E[/b], I always thought the morphing of Sam’s face in Yellow Fever was an effect of Dean suffering the extreme fear (or it was that in combination with memories of torture Dean had undergone in Hell i.e. the Demons were *bound* to use Sam as a way of torturing Dean during his time in Hell).

             Reply

             1. Hi Ciar, yes that’s true, I think when Dean saw Sam’s face change in Yellow Fever it was because he was being affected by the disease, and it was not related to anything evil on Sam’s part. But in No Rest for the Wicked, it was plainly stated several times that Dean was able to see past the mask of the host bodies to the real demon underneath… so, was Ellie seeing something really corrupted or demonic in Dean underneath because of purgatory? Or did the PTB screw up the continuity by having her just hallucinate something not real? Dean said to Ellie that what she was seeing wasn’t real, yet he tried to hide his face from her, and the special effect was really great and detailed. Maybe something more regarding Dean and Purgatory is still waiting to be revealed?

                I think I am probably over speculating here, and they in fact have just botched the continuity of what people being stalked by Hellhounds are able to see, but wouldn’t it be awesome if Dean was changing or carrying some thing around from purgatory that is evil or demonic?

             2. Yeah, [b]E[/b] I was wondering why Dean was trying to hide his face from Ellie.

                If he knew she was hallucinating, and given that he’s been in her situation he’d know what kind of things she might be seeing, perhaps he was trying to lessen the upsetting effect by hiding his face from her?

                But I do like your thought that there *could* be something more to the scene 🙂 Dean has been in Hell and he’s been in Purgatory, that *could* leave some sort of impression, residue, or mark on his aura, or soul, that could be seen by someone who’s at a point where they can see through the Veil. It’s an interesting idea 😆

             3. I believe people just alucinates. In Crossroads Blues we saw two of them alucination the face thing – the lady doctor in the motel room (the face of the man that was charging her the extra hour in the room) and the husband that was saved (his wife).

19. Has anyone noticed that Dean’s diet bears more than a passing resemblance to Jughead’s?

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20. Did anyone notice that the husband, I think his name was Carl?, was the actor that played the guard killed by the mummy in “Monster Movie”! After 8 seasons, they’re going back into the pool of actors in Vancouver. I love it. 😆

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    1. I have noticed this in spades this season! It seems very deliberate to me. It’s almost as though the PTB are playing a game of “spot the recurring actor;” it’s been fun. In next weeks episode, the cop guy at the center of the case the boys are investigating is the same running guy who had his heart ripped out by creepy Dr. Benton in Time is on My Side. I recognized him just from the preview.

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       1. That is cool, I’ll have to keep my eyes open for that. If I remember correctly, he was pretty cute too. 😉 It’s like our own little game of Where’s Waldo! 😆

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21. I’ve been a champion of season 8 from the get go, mainly because I disliked S7 so much. I guessed right away that Dean would want to do the trials and there would be a screw up and Sam would end up being the one. I’m okay with that because I’m pretty sure both will be involved in the hunting. Now my husband and I watch the show together and he never analyzes the show like I have a tendency to do, but ever since Benny saved Dean from the vampire and said Dean had lost a step, he’s annoyed that Dean seems not to be as effective at hunting, A guy thing? Anyway I love the show and this year and all the new possibilities. Jensen just gets hotter every year.

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22. I think it’s sad that the writers can’t also give Dean the inner strength to find his own way to the light at the end of the tunnel, as they did for Sam. Sure Dean has faith in Sam, but I think Dean really needs to have faith in [i]himself[/i] right now.

    But now, Dean will never get to make the choice to take on these trials with the determination to survive them. He is only there to support Sam because he just isn’t strong enough to find the will to live for himself. He also isn’t strong enough to kill a hell-hound apparently. The writers were really pushing Dean is an all around failure in this one.

    I don’t know what else to say about this episode really. To me the writers have made it clear that they want Dean’s low self-worth issues to continue to show he just doesn’t have the inner strength that Sam does, and he also doesn’t have the hunter prowess Sam does.

    But I did enjoy seeing Dean’s nesting and cooking for Sam, although right now it appears that will be his primary role now that Sam is the Men of Letters and the only one doing the trials. I just wish Dean could have more than a supporting role in all of this.

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    1. Chris_J, I agree with everything you wrote. I thought we were finally getting a new story but we are back to caretaker Dean for the 8th year. I am so disappointed. But after season five it really is ” fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me”. So I really have no one but myself to blame for putting my faith in the writers of this show .

       Reply

    2. Hi Chris_J, yes, it is incredibly sad that Dean still sees no worth in himself, and I am sure that Sam not looking for him (at least as far as we know) hasn’t helped him in this AT ALL. Still though, JC is setting up a three year arc with this series of plot lines and I have hope that something will come soon for Dean. There has been a lot of speculation about an Angel tablet… maybe Dean will have to undertake those trials (if there are any).

       I do disagree with you a little though in your view of Dean’s strength as a hunter. I don’t see him as weaker than Sam in that respect or weak at all really. As a matter of fact, I thought they were making a point of showing how strong Dean had become as a hunter while in purgatory, and it’s actually Sam that has needed rescuing more in fights so far this season. I also am not sure that Dean is in fact playing a supporting role in the trials as we haven’t seen them yet. And since the lion’s share of the first ten episodes have been about Dean, Purgatory, Benny etc… I think it fair (and balanced) to finally give Sam something to do.

       About his inner strength, I think you might have a point. Dean still hasn’t found that pivotal reason to live inside himself. I know he loves his brother, but Dean needs to find a reason to live for Dean; not to save the world, close the gates of hell or even to see Sam happy, just for him because he wants to. My one major gripe with last nights episode was in this aspect; a seeming return to hopeless Dean. I really, really want to see some movement away from this and soon. I want Dean to be proud of himself for once and to see the good he has done.

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       1. Haha, this fandom is awesome, but is also hard to please. In As Time Goes By people were complaining Sam had to be rescued by Dean. Lots of comments about a ‘damsel in distress’ role and people actually counting how many times Sam had to be rescued this season.

          Now people are complaining that Dean had to be rescued by Sam, that ubber hunter Dean looked weak. Man, IT IS impossible to please everyone, lol!

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          1. Ale!!!! I am still laughing after your comment, so true!
             I have always been Team Winchester, not Team Sam or Team Dean (or Team Dean and Team Sam, not to list one before the other). To me it is like choosing your favorite child, or favorite sibling—I myself could not do that. A majority of comments on Supernatural (all sites, not just WFB) are Dean vs. Sam (or Sam vs. Dean, however you see it). I embrace the strengths of each, I like seeing them when they are on SOLID groud, and even yes, when they are at odds.

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             1. Oh! Team Winchester. Yes.Why haven’t I been using that. Much better than Bibro. And I definitely count myself among the Team Winchester group. And I could not picked one.

                Although I do think I unintentionally started the “damsel in distress” kerfuffle, but it was really only referring to like 30 seconds in 1 episode (and I acknowledged the error of my ways). It sort of took on a life of its own. :-*

             2. Definitely Team Winchester 🙂

             3. Right!?

                If this is a Dean vs. Sam, or Sam vs. Dean thing, then somebody will ALWAYS be displeased by something, since the writers write for both.

                I’m also team Winchester all the way.

             4. I agree with you Ale. It’s Team Winchester all the way.

                You know, I think I’m in a happy happy mood after the latest episode, as the boys are finally saying the things I’ve been longing to hear them say for the last 3 and 1/2 years!

                I can now enjoy each and every episode up to now, no matter how much they pained me, just because they all lead to this moment in the series. The antipathy of the brothers ever since the finale of season 3 has been something that hurt and kept hurting year after year, even though I still loved the show and sincerely believed the love was still there between them. It was far between moments that we saw the affection show between the butting of heads and the mean things that were said and all the hurting. 🙁

                But after the last 4 episodes I am over the moon and have absolutely nothing to complain about. Thank you so much Jeremy Carver! Please don’t ever leave us again!

                Dean and his room, his mattress and his photo of him and his mom. Dean and his cooking skills. Does anyone not think he learned them while raising Sammy? He probably cooked the dinner every day as I can’t see Dad doing it, as he was away most of the time anyway and when he came back, he was probably too whacked out to do so. Loved and teared up for Dean, and then when Sammy checked out the room with approval.

                Dean’s speech, so very sad and filled with his low self-esteem, and then Sam’s beautiful reply. Oh my! Almost sobbing with those. The tears were running freely!

                Eric was right! No matter what, the fans are gonna bitch! As I find right on this thread. 😕

                This episode had everything I’ve been longing for for a very long time and I love love love loved it!!! 😆

             5. This episode reenergized the whole series. It was evenly split between Sam and Dean. We finally get to hear Sam show his admiration of Dean and what Dean wants for Sammy. Dean’s low self esteem is finally out of the closet- he covers it so well with his machismo. The special effects seem to demonstrate Dean’s ugliness about himself and Sam’s arm-is he a bright lite or burning up? We saw Dean prepare the glasses but Sam must have done it on his own- wonderful misdirection by the writers. Sam’s wink while he is guarding the Dallas wannabees might be the clue that he is following his own instinct on the trials.Dean has always had a crisis of faith, but I think Sam is extending hope to Dean. They may write Dean light for the beginning of season9 since they restart filming in
                August and the baby is due so Jensen might have asked for lite Dean episodes.Comedic lines had me laughing out loud during a serious pivitol episode. Dean nesting and Sam finally eating meat instead of a salad shake or organic vegetables- he can’t leave the burger behind. Kevin does not look so good. Those who choose to bitch and moan about one story line for Sam or Dean are entitled to opine, but watch the body of work for the past 8 seasons- it is usually even. At least on this site, it is mostly friendly caring. This episode was so evenly written, directed, misdirected, tied to the past, revealed much about the brothers feelings and moved the plot along-even referenced Superman-homage to Jensen’s participation in that series- It left me shouting YES! There is more gas in the supernatural tank.

             6. [quote]This episode reenergized the whole series. It was evenly split between Sam and Dean. We finally get to hear Sam show his admiration of Dean and what Dean wants for Sammy. Dean’s low self esteem is finally out of the closet- he covers it so well with his machismo. The special effects seem to demonstrate Dean’s ugliness about himself and Sam’s arm-is he a bright lite or burning up? We saw Dean prepare the glasses but Sam must have done it on his own- wonderful misdirection by the writers. Sam’s wink while he is guarding the Dallas wannabees might be the clue that he is following his own instinct on the trials.Dean has always had a crisis of faith, but I think Sam is extending hope to Dean. They may write Dean light for the beginning of season9 since they restart filming in
                August and the baby is due so Jensen might have asked for lite Dean episodes.Comedic lines had me laughing out loud during a serious pivitol episode. Dean nesting and Sam finally eating meat instead of a salad shake or organic vegetables- he can’t leave the burger behind. Kevin does not look so good. Those who choose to bitch and moan about one story line for Sam or Dean are entitled to opine, but watch the body of work for the past 8 seasons- it is usually even. At least on this site, it is mostly friendly caring. This episode was so evenly written, directed, misdirected, tied to the past, revealed much about the brothers feelings and moved the plot along-even referenced Superman-homage to Jensen’s participation in that series- It left me shouting YES! There is more gas in the supernatural tank.[/quote]

                This is how I saw this episode as well. Both characters were front and center and both had a POV. This is what I watch SPN for so I was happy with this episode.
                Like a lot of others I will ignore the first 11 episodes unless they are tied into the mytharc or the MOL at some point. I found them pointless so far. But there have been 3 episodes in a row that I will rewatch. And it’s made me look forward to the next episode for the first time this season.

             7. [quote]I’m also team Winchester all the way.[/quote]I am new to the fandom, so I must admit I’ve been surprised. I’ve watched and enjoyed SPN for years, and my perception has never been that one or other of the brothers was being written “against” the other. So it’s Team Winchester for me!

             8. Arad, the Sam vs. Dean doesn’t come from the writers. They don’t write one brother against the other, IMO (although, I’m certain there will be fans who disagree). It’s more like a fan war – some like Dean better, others like Sam better. Nothing wrong with that. But the problem is, a Dean fan sometimes trashes Sam, or complains too much when Sam gets to do something and Dean doesn’t, because they want an all Dean show, and vice versa.

                In this site, Dean vs. Sam wars are not tolerated. Alice is the peace keeper – that’s why I like it in the here!

                I’m in the fandom since the end of S06, so I’m also relatively new. I was as surprised as you are by the Sam vs. Dean, because it was (and still is) difficult for me to understand someone enjoying the show without liking both brothers, even if liking one better than the other (Go Team Winchester!). But, well, we have all kinds of viewers.

                That’s what I understood about the Dean vs. Sam. Please, if I got it wrong, anyone fell free to correct me.

             9. [quote]Arad, the Sam vs. Dean doesn’t come from the writers. They don’t write one brother against the other, IMO (although, I’m certain there will be fans who disagree).[/quote]

                Thank you 🙂 I agree completely; watching just as ‘viewer’ (that is just me and my blu-rays!) I never noticed any problems of emphasizing one over the other. It was not until I found the fandom (unfortunately my first experiences of it were via tumblr) that I even thought about it.

                [Quote]In this site, Dean vs. Sam wars are not tolerated. Alice is the peace keeper – that’s why I like it in the here![/quote]I really like this site too. I was lurking for ages but it is all quite civilized and friendly here so contributing is enjoyable rather than frightening!!

             10. Been with SPN since season one. Looking at the body of work, there is an eveness and they balance not only the story line, but the way the bros play off of each other. It is the relationship between Sam and Dean that makes this series more than just a scifi show. It would not work without the both of them. So yes team Winchester all the way. I enjoy both characters sometimes one more than the other but then it shifts according to the script. Fans identify with something in each of them, but some fans identify for personal reasons with one more than the other.

             11. AGREE 10000% debbab, perfectly said.

             12. I joined the online fandom in S4, and I was also surprised at the Sam v. Dean wars. I always loved both brothers and just assumed everyone else did too. Haha!

                 Boy was I wrong!

             13. [quote] the Sam vs. Dean doesn’t come from the writers. They don’t write one brother against the other, IMO (although, I’m certain there will be fans who disagree). It’s more like a fan war – some like Dean better, others like Sam better. Nothing wrong with that. But the problem is, a Dean fan sometimes trashes Sam, or complains too much when Sam gets to do something and Dean doesn’t, because they want an all Dean show, and vice versa.

                 In this site, Dean vs. Sam wars are not tolerated. Alice is the peace keeper – that’s why I like it in the here!

                 I’m in the fandom since the end of S06, so I’m also relatively new. I was as surprised as you are by the Sam vs. Dean, because it was (and still is) difficult for me to understand someone enjoying the show without liking both brothers, even if liking one better than the other (Go Team Winchester!). But, well, we have all kinds of viewers.[/quote]

                 That’s how I see it, too. And I discovered SPN and the fandom at the beginning of S7, so holla! lol 🙂

             14. [quote][quote]I’m also team Winchester all the way.[/quote]I am new to the fandom, so I must admit I’ve been surprised. I’ve watched and enjoyed SPN for years, and my perception has never been that one or other of the brothers was being written “against” the other. So it’s Team Winchester for me![/quote]

                 [b]Arad[/b], I’ve been an SPN fan since S1 and I was involved in online fandom for the first 3 seasons of the show but then I stopped having anything to do with fandom because rampant speculation about what might be happening plot-wise was stressing me and because I saw too many online fans being uncivil to each other. In fact, I even stopped reading SPN fanfiction for a couple of years because I felt I needed a break from everything except the show itself (and during S4, which was not a series I enjoyed, I even considered stopping watching SPN) 😥

                 However, last year I found WFB (a serendipitous accident) and I lurked for about 5 months, reading articles and discussions – dipping my toe in the fandom pool again 🙂 I was very happy to find WFB because the tone of discussion here is much friendlier and more about analysing things in an even-handed way. I feel more comfortable with the tone of discussion here 🙂

                 And yes, I’m Team Winchester too. I completely understand why people would have a favourite Winchester brother but I really couldn’t chose between Sam and Dean if my life depended on it 8)

          2. Ale, I completely concur. Awesome but hard to please for sure. Even when the show does things right! One “side” or the other always feel disappointed or slighted, and are equally adamant that they are right. Makes for interesting comments. 🙂

             Reply

             1. On one of the websites I wander through, I saw it mentioned that Jared had broken a rib in a skiing accident over his holiday. This may be why the writer from last week had to write him as a damsel in distress – working around the injury for a week or two. Unlike the arm in Season 2 that was in a visible cast, it is easy to hide a broken rib under the viewers’ nose by writing a weak story. It may have been a completely different scene if Jared had been up to full fighting power. 🙂

             2. That was on Zap 2 It, and we have a link to that interview on our Spoiler Page!

                Jared broke his rib over the holidays. The episode you’re talking about “As Time Goes By” was filmed before that. They film a new episode every 8 days and they’re up to episode 18 right now I believe. I think episode 15 was the first one back from break, and that airs next week. There’s a spoiler in that interview that hints that maybe that broken rib plays a role in that.

             3. How did he break his rib?

             4. Skiing. If you don’t mind be spoiled then it’s in the interview to the side. on the main page.

             5. Curious-don’t actors have a clause in their contracts not to do dangerous activities for fear something would happen? I may be overly dramatic about thinking of skiing but still wonder all the same…

             6. [quote] Makes for interesting comments. :-)[/quote]

                That indeed!

             7. I am trying very hard to be Team Winchester… but I still find myself leaning every so slightly (like the Leaning Tower of Pisa) towards Sam’s side of the fence. Ah, my beautiful Sammy. Still though, I try very hard to keep an even keel about things. It’s kind of funny really; after episodes and episodes of “they’ve thrown Sam under the bus” and other like comments, a mere few episodes later and those comments have reappeared exactly only directed at Dean instead of Sam this time. It’s weird being on the other side of this same exact argument!

             8. Oh, nothing wrong in being the Leaning Tower of Pisa towards one brother! I, myself, lean a little toward Dean. 😀

                What I find weird is when a fan defends one brother by trashing the other, spilling hate all over. It’s weird to me because the core of the show is the love they have for each other, that ultimately saved the world! So, how can you hate one brother and still enjoy the show?

             9. [quote]What I find weird is when a fan defends one brother by trashing the other, spilling hate all over. It’s weird to me because the core of the show is the love they have for each other, that ultimately saved the world! So, how can you hate one brother and still enjoy the show?[/quote]
                That’s when I have a problem too. My sister is most definitely a Dean girl but she still hates what there are doing with Sam this season and she’s never that hard on him. Kinda like Sweetondean, she’s a confirmed Dean girl (names kind of a giveaway) but she never trashes Sam. So it doesn’t bother me at all.

             10. Absolutely Ale. Although I lean towards Sam, I would never be able to stay interested in it if one of the guys left.

             11. THAT IS THE GOLDEN QUESTION! 🙂

          3. True! It’s kind of funny.

             When it comes to who rescues whom, am I the only one who doesn’t pay attention to it? Dean rescues Sam. Sam rescues Dean. It really doesn’t bother me [i]unless [/i] the scene feels awkward or weird in some way. For instance, in the episode w/Kristi (I think that was her name) last year, Dean just stood there w/his gun, doing nothing. Haha! That was odd, and it seemed very forced.

             In ATGB, I honestly couldn’t think of a thing Sam could do so the scene didn’t phase me. In this episode, I didn’t think Dean did anythign utterly stupid so the scene worked for me. The knife got knocked out of his hands . . .that’s happened to them both many times before. No big deal to me.

             Reply

    3. Hi Chris, I don’t see it the same way but I get some of what you are saying. I do think that Dean’s self-esteem issues are so ingrained that is is just part of the fabric of who he is. He has made some progress on that score by realizing his dad played a huge part in that. I have to say that is what makes these characters so fascinating to me. They are damaged and far from perfect and still get up every day, be heroic and just do the best they can in spite of everything.

       Reply

23. What an early Valentine’s Day gift this spectacular episode was. And Alice’s great review was the icing on the cake! One of my favorite scenes was Sam looking around Dean’s room, and the happy look on Sam’s face. The boys are HOME. Dean “nesting” comment was another highlight.
    I agree with the calendar fail. Was this mentioned when Henry saw the license plate? Funny I didn’t connect those dots but was thinking the same as Alice when Kevin was marking off his calendar.
    I am so happy with Kevin’s character, and another great scene was Sam telling Kevin this life is a “marathon.” The boys need to take him out for a night on the town!
    As for Crowley not telling Ellie about the Hell outcome for her deal, maybe it was because she was 13 at the time and maybe did not really understand what Crowley was telling her? That is what I am going with. Crowley is evil but Alice is correct about his integrity. We’ve always seen him explain the down side to these deals.
    The brother scenes were off the charts. The mythology was really kicked up. The ending with Sam and what will happen to him? WOW.
    As for the comments about wishing the previous 10 episodes didn’t happen, I could not disagree more. I know there have been complaints, but after reminding myself of where we’ve been so far by reading the episode titles, COME ON! “Blood Brothers,” Citizen Fang(!!!!!!),” “Southern Comfort (Garth!!),” and “We Need To Talk About Kevin (Dean PTSD!!).” I may get hate responses for this, but I still love “Bitten.” I bet after a re-watch of the Season during summer break, more people will like it ? TPTB are getting the show to this point their own way. Re-reading what we’ve seen already makes me more proud and excited for Season 8.

    Reply

    1. Nate – I agree with your take on the first 10 episodes; there were some very good episodes and it was necessary to explore the brother’s year apart and how it changed them/changed each of their perceptions. Though Sam’s FBs were a little “off”, I’m thinking that might have been the whole point about them.

       I just rewatched “Torn and Frayed” earlier this week – this was an excellent but uncomfortable episode to watch, both for the torture and the complete breakdown of the brother’s relationship. However, I think it was necessary to get to rock bottom before you can start to rebuild things. I think the writers handled this quite well; no longer the angsty stuff from the early seasons but rather a more realistic/mature reconciliation, appropriate for two brothers in their 30s.

       Reply

    2. I dont’ think I could make myself watch episodes 1-11 again for any reason. I have S7 (Christmas gift), and have only re-watched MTNB, HCW, Plucky’s, and the one where Dean got a kid. I don’t see myself watching any of the others anytime soon.

       I feel the same way about the first half of this season. None of those episodes had a re-watchable quality to me. At present, I have no desire to watch any of those episodes again.

       Reply

       1. lala2,
          Not even LARP and The Real Girl? Of the first 10 episodes have the meeting of Sam and Benny for the first time (almost worth the price of Season 8 on Blu-Ray for me), Jensen’s awesome performance in “We Need to Talk About Kevin,” being off-kilter the entire episode (and into the next few), the first great Garth episode in “Southern Comfort,” the wonderful fun of “Hunteri Heroici,” and if “Citizen Cane” did not have tense on your couch and loving the depth of Benny, I find it hard to relate to your view of the first part of Season 8. Those are just some of my favorite bits in the first 10 (11) episodes. I was not a fan of Season 7 and 6 overall, but even in the weaker episodes there are always moments to embrace. Those episodes did happen, they are part of the Winchester history, I don’t think any should be dismissed. IMO Season 8 is so far superior to the last 2 years, I admit anyone who thinks otherwise I find it hard to relate to. That said I fully support your opinion, and maybe once the season is completed you will give it another go.

          Reply

          1. S7 I loved so many of the episode and really liked most of the others. It was the overall season storylines and characters arcs that I had a problem with. But the weird thing is S8 has corrected most of those problems. But created an much bigger one (Sam’s storyline) that I’m going to have trouble getting over if not corrected somehow. And with my problems from S7 I could still the episodes, things would just bug me a little. But this is such a huge issue I’m not sure I can even do that or else I’ll have to fast forward through anything to do with Sam not looking for Dean, esp. Amelia.

             Reply

             1. I am with you once again Kelly; we really think alike! I really enjoyed most of the episodes so far this season, and didn’t really have a problem per se with any of them, not even Bitten, which I found really interesting as a kind of ‘from the monster’s side of things’ storyline and I did enjoy it despite the lack of Sam and Dean. My issue has been in characterization; for the most part Sam’s and the character incongruity of him not looking for Dean. I just can’t fathom it, understand it, believe it, or accept it. And until we get something, even something lame at this point, I’ll always think of the first half of season 8 as flawed. I’ll probably still watch if those eps show up on TNT, but I won’t seek them out on Hulu or something like I do with my other fav episodes.

             2. E, we do think alike. If they fix the Sam part of the episode, by having something up their sleeves or whatever. I would rate most the episodes really high.

                Even Bitten I didn’t hate, I thought the idea was good but the problem was I just didn’t care about kids, at all. Remembered the X-Files one did like that, where it was told from the monster’s POV, (Hunger I think) and I thought that one was good, but I really felt bad for the guy in that one. Didn’t care at all in Bitten. But I didn’t hate it.

                If they pull the Sam storyline out of the pooper, I have no real complaints about this season. But without that fix, I’m going to always have trouble with the first episodes, because it bothered me more and more with every watch until finally I’m not going to be able to watch them at all.

             3. E, check out sweetondean’s review. Great points about how the perception of the first part of Season 8 is much clearer now.

             4. Hi Nate! Oh yeah, just read it earlier today. Very interesting and insightful. It did make me re-think some things about how those early episodes played out. I still want resolution to the ‘Sam didn’t look for Dean non-story’ though, I guess I’m just stubborn like that!

          2. Haha – Nope, not even LARP 🙂

             If I had to pick….this is hard b/c they were all so bad to me….I guess I’d go w/T&F. Admittedly, I don’t really remember too many of the other episodes.

             Presently, I’m erasing the first 11 episodes from my mind. I much preferred the first 11 of S6 to this year! I am huge fan of the Soulless Sam arc. In fact, I would have been fine w/him sticking around for the entire season. I thought both MTNB and HCW in S7 were infinitely stronger than WNTTAK and Tiger Mom (?).

             Sam’s OOC characterization and whacky pod-like behavior pretty much ruined the start of S8 for me.

             Reply

             1. loved, loved, loved Soulless Sam

             2. lala2 I LOVED Soulless Sam too. Jared’s best work, IMO.
                sweetondean just posted a review on the last episode and how it relates to the entire Season 8 and the first 10 episodes, check it out.

             3. Yeah it’s very good and it has helped; still want more than we got tho 😛

          3. Not lala2, but none of those can compensate for the season for me. LARP was fun, but not that great. I don’t care about the depth of Benny when the price was the shallowness of Sam and Amelia. Citizen Fang didn’t do that much for me. Hunteri Heroici really didn’t catch me, but that is true of many of the lighter, funnier episodes. I just have a different sense of humor.

             I’m glad you and others are enjoying this season so much, but I’m simply not. Sorry you can’t relate to me, but hey different strokes for different folks.

             Reply

          4. [quote]the meeting of Sam and Benny for the first time (almost worth the price of Season 8 on Blu-Ray for me), Jensen’s awesome performance in “We Need to Talk About Kevin,” being off-kilter the entire episode (and into the next few), the first great Garth episode in “Southern Comfort,” the wonderful fun of “Hunteri Heroici,” and if “Citizen Cane” did not have tense on your couch and loving the depth of Benny, I find it hard to relate to your view of the first part of Season 8. Those are just some of my favorite bits in the first 10 (11) episodes.[/quote]That is a great list of why the first part of the season is worth a rewatch. I [i]loved[/i] that scene in Blood Brother, and Dean word-building “vampirates” is seared in my memory – hilarious.

             Reply

          5. Some of the episodes for the first half of the year were flat and in retrospect, they needed to be to lead up to Sam;s ahah moment as well as Dean’s pessimism. Not all the first episodes were that bad, a few were not so good, but what’s perfect? Better than the Zero Hour wannabe supernatural ripoff that is on tonight. Certainly, SPN was amped up with Citizen Fang, Larping,Hitler and what has unfolded the second half of the year. Trial and Error struck the right balance between the brothers, the narrative, the character arcs and seriousness and the comedict. Grandpan winchester’s season had some pretty flat episodes and Season 7 Leviathans missed the mark for me but within each year there were good episodes, so I watch the reruns of the episodes-even the ones i did not like because i always find a new line, facial expression or piece of canon on the rerun. The series has more to unfold and if the writers can give the quality I saw with Trial and Error- WOW! Of course, everyone is entitled to opine with their own thoughts and I support those who do but who leave out the open hostility- thanks to Alice.

             Reply

       2. [quote]I dont’ think I could make myself watch episodes 1-11 again for any reason. I have S7 (Christmas gift), and have only re-watched MTNB, HCW, Plucky’s, and the one where Dean got a kid. I don’t see myself watching any of the others anytime soon.

          I feel the same way about the first half of this season. None of those episodes had a re-watchable quality to me. At present, I have no desire to watch any of those episodes again.[/quote]

          [b]Lala[/b], I feel like that with some SPN episodes that I didn’t enjoy (or didn’t feel were re-watchable) and I definitely feel like that about the majority of S4 because I really didn’t enjoy an awful lot of that season 😡 Over the last few months, I’ve been re-watching my SPN DVDs (when I have free time) and I’ve almost reached the end of S1. I have to admit that I am not really looking forward to re-watching S4 and I think I’ll be mostly watching it with subtitles on and set to high-speed so I can get a sense of the content without having to watch it fully.

          Reply

          1. I liked S4 – a lot. I felt it took off like a bullet. I read that Kripke was sick of the CW’s and Dawn O’s games so he wrote it w/the intent of it being the last season.

             Now, in retrospect, esp. considering the strong lack of POV for Sam in S5, I think Sam was mishandled in S4. His actions, IMO, required much more explanation than we were given. Plus, if I’m honest, I never really bought the idea that he would hang around Ruby ever again no matter how depressed he was. That said, I still like S4 and can rewatch any of those episodes.

             Now, S5 – just ugh! I’ve only rewatched MBV, SS, TSRTS, SI, and TE and the Brady episode. That’s it. The rest suck to me.

             I can rewatch most of S6 up until I guess whatever comes after TFM. I’ve never rewatched the Western one, the Titanic one, or the one where Dean kills the MOA. I can just skip to the finale. I liked the idea of Sam merging those parts of himself.

             I probably should try to rewatch some of these episodes. I only recently rewatched the one where Dean got the kid, and it wasn’t as bad as I originally remembered. Haha!

             Reply

    3. Hi Nate, I agree with you here. I wish they had handled some things differently but I have been enjoying the season very much and see what they were doing. As painful as some of the episodes were to watch, I like where they have arrived. Torn and Frayed was SO painful to watch but still a good episode. I will be rewatching many of these episodes. They might go down a little easier after this one where the guys expressed so many positive and caring thoughts about each other.

       Reply

       1. Hi Leah,
          First–the Paint Cans. My grandfather had a garage that was a mechanic’s dream come true! He would use empty paint cans to store nails, etc. and empty ANYTHNIG else to store other items. Some people can’t thow anything away 🙂 I actually thought of my grandfather when I saw the glasses in the Paint Can. I would find strange things like that ALL the time, he makes me laugh.
          As far as Season 8 so far, I know many have complained it has been slow moving. In the world today, with instant reviews by great sites like WFB and others, the viewers are expecting EVERY episode to be a huge, mind-blowing game changing episode every week. I remember the LOST creators in about Season 3 saying in an interview how they were shocked at how the fans change from week to week. “We’re being judged on every episode, not our overall story” was their comments. Mr. Carver took over after two difficult seasons quality-wise. He had to craft where to go from there, and as he said he sees a new 3 year (Season 10) arc. I saw the quality improvement in the first episode this season, and have not looked back. I am taking the ride with Mr. Carver and Co. and am pleased with where they’ve taken us, and more excited where we are now. The Season is really picking up steam, we are getting the more mature Winchesters Mr. Carver spoke about at Comic-Con, and I bet this new pace will be constant going forward through Season 8, into Season 9, and PLEASE CHUCK Season 10!

          Reply

          1. I am right there with you on this ride. I know some people liked last season but I did not. Carver and company have done so much to improve the show IMO. Many of the things we all we grumbling about last summer have been addressed. Sam’s story, at the beginning, could have been handled better or a least explained. Dean could have been less hurtful in some of his interactions with Sam. But I see that they had to get them to the lowest point so that things could start to heal. Right now I am excited.

             Funny about your grandfather. I forgot that mine did things like that too. He never threw ANYTHING away.

             Reply

          2. Hear somewhere (an interview maybe) that those ‘old glasses’ sitting around in paint cans were Prada… HA!

             Reply

24. Hello everyone…longtime lurker here

    There was a trial and an error
    Dean failed his trial because he lacked the will to live. Sam is right that Dean has the perfect balance of brain and brawn (and natural instincts or intuition) to make a perfect hunter (and Men of Letters) but he lacks something even more fundamental–the Will to Live. This was his undoing unfortunately for us Dean-girls…but it is recurring problem that he has to fix. He must address and defeat his major weakness which is his self-esteem issues (inferiority complex when it comes to the Men of Letters thing), and abandonment issues, which all contribute to his lack of Will to Live…he cannot keep fighting without defining who he is and why he is doing it….he must learn to Fight to Live!!!

    This episode was like a giant warning sign to me and had echos of seasons past….While Deans great weakness is issues of guilt and self esteem, Sams greatest weakness is self-righteaousness and a thirst for power that has always been brought on by his Good Intentions
    Why did Sam go dark side? to save his brother from Hell after he made the deal with the crossroads demon… Good Intentions gone bad
    Now we find another opportunity that the last minute of todays episode showed us….What will Sam do to show Dean the light at the end of the tunnel?
    I feel that Sam may have gotten the chance to face the trials and redeem himself from his past mistakes. But this is going to be difficult because he is also trying to prove to Dean that he can save him from himself, he can lead Dean to the light…heck he is trying to prove that there IS a light at the end to the road for them. This is all well intentioned but history has thought us that life in supernatural is more complex, the power that Sam now wields–power over the destiny of Hell (Lucifer comes to mind…) may corrupt….

    Dean may feel that he is not worthy now but he needs to protect Sam from the supernatural from the inevitable consequences of his good intentions…

    We are definitely not done with Michael and Lucifer. That is the destiny of Sam and Dean Winchester!! They cannot run from it their whole lives..They have to learn to conquer their destiny with their love for each other—and hopefully restore Michael and Lucifer to their original state of loving each other. Maybe that is God’s plan to have Sam and Dean teach the angels what they had forgotten

    Reply

    1. Wow that is a huge canvas you are drawing there! I would love to see some elements of the epic return but reconciling Michael and Lucifer could be a tough one!!

       I like what you said about Dean needing his good deeds to have a positive genesis rather than just a negative one. To me the origin of his cynicism is in the failure of Sam to live up to Dean’s expectations. That is not Sam’s fault, but Dean put him on a pedestal and of course Sam is human and good intentions aren’t always enough. So, my feeling is if Dean’s faith in Sam can be restored, then hopefully his faith in life can revive too. I hope.

       Reply

    2. Quoting Labotin
       [quote]There was a trial and an error
       Dean failed his trial because he lacked the will to live. Sam is right that Dean has the perfect balance of brain and brawn (and natural instincts or intuition) to make a perfect hunter (and Men of Letters) but he lacks something even more fundamental–the Will to Live.[/quote]

       Labotin, I love this. I think that this is exactly what the PTB were getting at. Dean couldn’t have completed the trials, at least not right now in the state that he’s in. Maybe the remainder of this season will restore some of Dean’s faith in himself, enough that he will be able to take on whatever is required of him when it comes to the Angel tablets. Nice post, welcome aboard!

       Reply

       1. That was insightful. I love this view too. It’s a God’s task, you NEED faith!

          Welcome Labotin!

          Reply

25. I, too, was touched by Sam and Dean’s speeches, especially Sam. It was such a contrast to what he said in Season 4’s “Sex and Violence,” which I had just watched Wednesday morning on TNT.
    In “S&V,” Sam called Dean “weak” and said he slowed Sam down; Sam also said he was a better hunter than Dean.
    I loved the fact that Sam acknowledged, for the first time in my memory, Dean’s ability as a hunter and said he was smart, too.

    Reply

26. Nate I agree. This episode was – I was going to say exceptional, but SPN produces so many good-great episodes that’s the wrong word. Anyway, I thought it was amazing. (I also agree about earlier episodes – I really do think they get better on repeat viewings).

    Can I say I love Kevin? He just doesn’t take anything lying down and has a Deanish determination along with Sam-like academic ability. I [i]loved[/i] Sam’s little pep-talk: “marathon not a sprint”. I don’t want to get into the whole Why Didn’t Sam Do What Dean Thought He Should Have Done discussion, but suffice to say the one aspect of that I don’t understand is how Sam could abandon Kevin when on all the other evidence he is quite kind and older-brotherly towards him.

    But the best bit of all was the brothers. And not just the speeches, but their whole dynamic. Dean was super in “soccer-mom” mode and it was a nice inversion on (I think) 802 where Sam was grocery shopping and Dean was only interested in getting out on the hunt. The real Dean, of course, when he allows himself, really likes domesticity. Though I did think the bedroom was a little disturbing, I loved his protectiveness over it and the thing with Mary’s picture made me well-up. I didn’t like Dean’s “grunt” speech much – it was quite sad despite his hopes for Sam, and I hope that his reaction to Sam’s speech at the end of the episode marks a turning point away from that view of himself. If Dean can have faith in Sam, then I think Sam’s faith in him would help to restore his self-worth.

    I was actually crying at Sam’s speech to Dean at the end. It just reminded me of why I loved Sam so much when I first started with SPN, and what a great brother Sam can be if Dean will let him.

    Over all, it was like coming back around to something more like the heart of why I love this show, but without taking away from all the developments in character and setting that we’ve had over the last years. I have had my doubts about Season 8 but sometimes you just need the lens of two or three really good episodes (sorry, I really liked 812 as well, apart from the feather, which I thought was one of Adam Glass’s stupidest lines ever) to give focus to the thing as a whole.

    Oh, and I liked the way they did the hell-hounds – nice, subtle, hound-of-the-baskervilles-ish; Ellie was smart and tough; the effect they used on Dean’s face: terrifying… I wont go on…
    __

    Quibbles:

    I did find Kevin handily translating instructions on seeing Hell-hounds and Dean finding glasses in an old was it a paint tin in the garage/stables muy muy conveniente.

    It isn’t the first time a kid who sold their soul didn’t really understand what they had done (though that was to Azazel and he did know about the ten-year rule). So, I go with the theory that she just didn’t recall, because Crowley (I miss Crowley) is nothing if not thorough.

    I must admit to never having thought much about the whole calendar thing; I wish I was more dedicated with details like that, but assumed that maybe end of season date doesn’t always correlate with the end of story date (i.e. that they are running behind on screen)?

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    1. Ha, I forgot about the glasses being in old paint cans. Who keeps glasses in a paint can? Who keeps old empty paint cans?

       Reply

       1. I just commented above… those old glasses were Prada… 😆

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    2. Arad, I loved Sam’s little pep talk too and also loved Dean giving him a hug. Now Sam not looking for Kevin didn’t bother me nearly as much as him not looking for Dean. Even though I do really love Kevin, but it’s not like they dragged him into this fight. From the minute, Roman started looking for the tablet he was doomed to be a part of it. And he wasn’t really in danger of them killing him since they needed him to read the tablet. So if Sam decided he wasn’t going to hunt and that it wasn’t his responsibility to save everyone. Than not hunting for Kevin is no worse than not hunting for any other victim of supernatural forces. Not that I completely like it, but that actually wasn’t a huge issues for me. Now not looking for Dean…..Whole other story.

       I had several quibbles too, including the ones you mentioned but they weren’t enough to effect my enjoyment of the episode. Because like you said it was like getting back to heart of the show.

       And loved your line that restoring his faith in Sam can help him restore his faith in his own self-worth.

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       1. Kelly, thanks 🙂 That makes a lot of sense to me. Your posts always seem to help me clear up my dilemmas! 🙂

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          1. Awww! You made my day! Especially since most of the time I get way too verbose and then by the time I’ve posted someone else has already said the same thing but much more concisely.

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27. I would love to see Dean’s hair long just once in 8 years please.

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    1. [quote]I would love to see Dean’s hair long just once in 8 years please.[/quote]I was having [i]very[/i] superficial and impure thoughts about Dean’s hair last night – was it cropped even closer than ever at the back or am I imagining it?

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       1. See my impure thoughts were for Sam’s hair. You could really dig your hands in there, but I’d have to climb him to do it. But I could make the sacrifice, I guess.

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          1. Im with you Kelly, Sam’s hair just makes me weak in the knees. However, I was thinking that Dean’s hair looked longer in the front and was standing up kind of nice and cocky and that he looked especially yummy in this ep. Those Clark Kent glasses had an amazing affect on both boys.

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       2. Cropped Arad, Very Cropped! I think there may have been razor burn if you look close. But gorgeous short hair or no 🙂

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    2. [quote]I would love to see Dean’s hair long just once in 8 years please.[/quote]

       I was convinced that we’d see Dean with longer hair after his time in Purgatory because I thought “how on earth would he cut his hair while in Purgatory?” (and I’m not talking Jensen in a wig, I’m talking actually letting his hair grow over the hiatus). I was really miffed that we didn’t get to see Dean with longer hair 😕 *sighs at a missed opportunity*

       Reply

       1. [quote]I was really miffed that we didn’t get to see Dean with longer hair 😕 *sighs at a missed opportunity*[/quote]Personally, I wanted him in a beard. That sounds so wrong…

          I guess it is a continuity thing i.e. they don’t film the episodes in screening order.

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          1. Yeah I’m pretty sure that filming sequence was the problem with Dean having a beard. The FB were filmed with each ep so Jensen had to keep switching between now Dean and FB Dean and fake beards don’t look very good.

             Jensen did say that Dean shaved with his knife.

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             1. [quote]Jensen did say that Dean shaved with his knife.[/quote] That is almost too much. I think I need to go lie down. 😮 😉

             2. It’s a good image, isn’t it? I imagine Dean kneeling by a stream. Stripping off his shirt, so it won’t get wet when he wipes his face afterwards, but it kind of sticks to him cause it’s all sweaty. And then…. Okay probably ought to take this to a fan fiction now.

             3. You all right there Kelly? 😉

             4. [quote]It’s a good image, isn’t it? I imagine Dean kneeling by a stream. Stripping off his shirt, so it won’t get wet when he wipes his face afterwards, but it kind of sticks to him cause it’s all sweaty. And then…. Okay probably ought to take this to a fan fiction now.[/quote]

                You do that. Tell me the name of fic. I WILL LOOK IT UP!

             5. See, those hunting knives are so uselful!

28. Dean has always little signs of wanting a home. I don’t think nesting is a stretch for him at all. I loved his room, especially his bed. It tugged at my heart because it was military-neat and had only one pillow right in the middle.
    Dean cooked for Sammy when he was little and it looked like cooking and grilling were normal when living with Lisa and Ben, so why wouldn’t he cook? Back in Simon Said he said he wanted something to eat that wasn’t microwaved in a mini-mart.
    Sam’s enjoyment of Dean’s childlike joy tugged at my heartstrings too.
    Their speeches to each other were GREAT. Sam’s was more uplifting, sure. IMO, Dean’s wasn’t suicidal so much as just who he grew up BEING. His version of hero is going out guns blazing. He never knew a different version as he grew up.
    I had nitpicks of this epi too. But the good outweighs the bad.
    I really worry about myself taking this so seriously that I think about S&D all the time. At least I am in good company!

    Reply

    1. Hello love2boys, I too am not convinced that this was suicidal Dean. I am still mulling it around in my head, but his speech (first kudos for actually making “I need” statements to Dean, that’s growth, even if his needs were then swept away) seemed more like a I am a soldier, this is what I do, there is no end to me doing this until I go out guns blazing. I need you (Sam) to be safe because Sam’s safety has always, since he was four, been Dean’s Prime Objective.

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29. Darn. That should be Dean has alway SHOWN little signs…

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30. Thanks you for opening the floor for speculation, Alice! Well, I both loved the episode AND had major issues with it…is that OK?

    I loved:
    • Dean nesting…and Sam’s reaction to that. Awwwww 😉
    • Dean’s line ‘Memory foam. It [i]remembers [/i] me’. Well, that’s just great, Jensen. 5 minutes in and my heart is already in pieces!
    • Sam, the Ginormo-waiter!
    • Dean in glasses. Yum 🙂
    • The girl ranch manager – thought she was a good actress, tho didn’t catch her character’s name!
    • Very cool special effect Hellhound – even on a TV budget 🙂
    • The choice of song for the girl ranch manager (what WAS her name!?) after Dean turned her down for sex. ‘I Touch Myself’ by the Divinyls….Ahahahahaha! Genius.
    • The sentiment and intention behind both emotional speeches by the brothers, especially Sam’s.

    I did NOT love:
    • The script – yikes! Maybe it was a dare for the writer? To see how many one-liners he could shoehorn into every scene –particularly for Dean. Holy crap! Jensen did the best he could with it, but for goodness’ sake! This is not an Ahnold action movie from 1985. NOBODY talks the way they made Dean talk in this episode. Good on Jensen for not going on strike! You’re a better man than I am, dude.

    • The overall anvil-iciousness of the script. Wow. Andrew Dabb would not know subtlety if it walked up and punched him in the face, huh? (See what I did there?) But seriously. I find it difficult to believe that in Season 8 either Dean or Sam would say the ‘grunt’ and ‘genius’ lines, respectively, as baldly and earnestly as both characters were written to. Plus, when it is patently obvious to the non-hunter TV viewing audience which characters made the deals, it is difficult to believe that the neither of the Winchesters would have worked it out sooner.

    Questions:
    • Nitpick query: If Baby Sam slept in his nursery, and John and Mary slept in their own room, does that not imply that 4-year-old Dean had a room of his own, which means this the second, not the first time Dean has had his own room?…..Oh let it go, me!

    • Nitpick 2: If Kevin needs protection, wouldn’t the Batcave with the Winchesters be safer than a rusting ship on his own?

    • Nitpick 3: Do many people leave pairs of old glasses in paint tins? Enquiring minds want to know.

    • Did anyone else keep thinking the country singer daughter was the same actress who played Lilith?

    • Did anyone else think that all that was missing from the scene where the Winchesters confront the Cassitys in the living room was Hercule Poirot?

    • Can someone please tell Kevin to NEVER take aspirin on an empty stomach? That way lies gastritis and peptic ulcers. Thank you.

    Reply

    1. I was waiting for Sam to decide to take Kevin to the batcave especially after Kevin’s rant about rarely seeing Garth and all his mom does is cry on the phone. I think it is sinking in to Sam that Kevin needs a keeper before he kills himself. The best place for that is at the batcave since it looks like there is plenty of room and except when they are out on a hunt the boys are there to make sure he is taking care of himself. I would not be surprised if this move happens before the end of the season.

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    2. Sometimes I want to just go parum-pum-tish every time Dean speaks, the constant one liners are ridiculous. I much prefer it when he actually speaks in sentences.

       Nitpick 1-Dean did have his own room , we saw it in Dark Side Of The Moon

       Nitpick 2-that would be the logical think to do but I think the writers want i to be a Sam and Dean zone only for a while, I do think Kevin will end up there eventually

       Nitpick 3-it wouldn’t have even occurred to me to look in the shed let alone in a paint tin

       The country singer daughter was not the same actress who played Lilith

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       1. Hades and Magichappening; I was bothered by the Dean on liners too, I mentioned it about a mile upthread somewhere, but I think I used the word snarky. He comes across so condescending, like someone who you can’t talk to, who doesn’t listen with these endless jibes. I think Andrew Dabb thinks it’s funny. I think Ben Edlund wrote him miles better. Dean IS funny, but he’s also more subtle than what we got in Trial and Error.

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          1. Hades and E: Glad it’s not just me 🙂

             And I agree E, Ben Edlund is able to make Dean at least as funny without suffering from One Liner Syndrome (OLS!)

             Oh, and good point about Dean’s room, Hades. I had forgotten that 🙂

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             1. I like Dean’s one liners( I’ll confess, though, I never really got tired of the dick jokes last year either-sometimes I’m twelve), but I have to admit (and this is a minor quibble) that they’ve had him pronouncing his badassness a lot, like he did in this episode. And this time it felt forced. Now when he told his grandfather he and Sam stopped the Apocalypse, I loved it. But it seems as if if was in another episode recently and wasn’t to sure about it. Maybe that’s intentional for some reason.

       2. the country singer daughter played carly on general hospital. she was the second one, after sarah brown.

          just an fyi …on gh fans from years ago might remember her.

          Reply

          1. Sure do! I hated Carly, but liked the country singer. She and her dad were hilarious to me!

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    3. sometimes people collect glasses for clubs like the Lions club that collect glasses frames for the poor, and it has to be Ellie as the others, yeah they wouldn’t care just fyi and a guess

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31. I loved the episode! Everyone has made so many comments here it’s hard to keep track.

    One thing I wanted to comment about was the time/calendar nitpick thing. This really seems to bother you, Alice. I believe you’ve mentioned it before. Personally, I think we have to give the writers a little artistic leeway here. They clearly want the episodes to be concurrent with the date they are aired. They always have. Just go with it. It isn’t a mistake, it’s deliberate, and it is an accepted literary convention. Even Shakespeare did it. I can understand a quibble with WHY they decided to do a time jump, that’s a different story. But the time jumps themselves, that was a decision made in the writers room, good or bad, not a mistake.

    Reply

    1. In a way, I’m kind of glad they brought the calendar back to now, otherwise it can get very complicated keeping track. And as you’ve stated it is accepted in the literary world, so why not here. I wouldn’t even know what year it would be anymore, something like 2014 or 15? 😮

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32. Major vs Secondary Character/ Sam vs Dean

    This explains the difference between a major and secondary character:

    Major characters are the main protagonists – generally the ones that the action or story revolves around and follows. Minor or secondary characters are ones that are necessary to populate the story believably. They play a supporting role rather than a central role in the story.

    The way Dean has been written this season, minus the Purgatory storyline (all 20 minutes), places Dean as a secondary character. (Could be some argument with this re:Benny – but as soon as main character, Sam, reverses his decision on whether vegetarian vampires should be suffered to live, Benny gets told bye-bye.) If Dean’s role will be to support Sam in completing his tasks to close the gates of hell, or to be the best chef in Sam’s MoL bunker, it proves the point that he is a supporting, not major, character.

    Doesn’t matter how cute he is, or how funny his lines, how much he loves to drive the Impala, Dean is supporting Sam’s storyline not an equal partner.

    And Jensen Ackles deserves a show where he is a main character.

    Reply

    1. I’m certain Sam girls are able to make the same argument in reverse.

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    2. You remove Sam’s storyline from the first 10 episode and you lose absolutely nothing from the season (unless they have something up their sleeve, please let them have something up their sleeve). Not arc or character development -other then telling Sam is not the type of brother who would look for Dean.

       Remove Dean from the first 10 episodes and you basically don’t have a story. So who is the story revolving around again?

       Reply

       1. [quote]You remove Sam’s storyline from the first 10 episode and you lose absolutely nothing from the season (unless they have something up their sleeve, please let them have something up their sleeve). Not arc or character development -other then telling Sam is not the type of brother who would look for Dean.

          Remove Dean from the first 10 episodes and you basically don’t have a story. So who is the story revolving around again?[/quote]
          Exactly . Sam got the trials and in a way I am glad because he needed a story not a romance that was poorly received and executed and also to be seen has the brother that didnt ‘look’ . I know full well that Dean will be in the thick of what is going on and his relationship with Benny will be touched upon again. This story for Sam ties him in more with what is going on rather than being in a sl that was outside of everything .

          I expect both brothers to be heavily involved with closing the gates and although there are things I would like to be talked about between the two at least whatever happens in the future with the brothers it is coming from a place of love and belief rather than discord and estrangement.

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       2. Kelly, Hello again. Let’s look at this assertion. The Season began with Let’s Talk About Kevin – the main point of which was Kevin found something and needed to talk to the only hunter he knew was still around, Sam, who had run away from his responsibilities. Not a positive light to paint Sam in, but the point of the episode reinforced by the flashbacks to Sam actually running away…Dean’s Purgatory Flashback and return was used as a vehicle to introduce a new character. Second ep. What’s Up Tiger Mommy – Sam takes up his responsibility again. Third and fourth – so main plot light as to not need to be mentioned in looking at the overall mytharc but with some intertwining of old themes – who’s a monster and who is a victim. So 8.5 – on the surface a Dean and Benny story – but what does it have to do with the main plot (the hero’s shirking of responsibility and then taking up his mantle again)? No, we have the who is a monster with Sam taking the opposite side of what he has normally argued. Benny is a monster because if Sam has to give up with he wants he wants Dean to also sacrifice (Hey, don’t shoot the messenger. I didn’t write it.) Southern Comfort, another throw away episode as far as main plot, except Dean gets to express his emotions. He’s mad that Sam shirked his responsibilities, including that of looking for him. 8.7 and we get Cas back, Dean has less reason to be PTSDing – which has been touched on and dropped like his and Sam’s depressions…really, on a different thread we can debate the poor handling of mental health issues, but too much of an aside to do so here…Hunteri Heroici, where Sam and Cas are made to examine why you cannot hide from your responsibilities. Citizen Fang, where this is where Sam girls should complain because Sam is painted in such a poor light here. Vindictive. And have we ever seen any Sam but Soulless who would willingly leave his brother knocked out, bleeding, and handcuffed? As far as main plot, not very heavy. Oh, and in this episode Dean’s hunting prowess so hard-won in Purgatory is stripped – as he is taken out by one vamp. Torn and Frayed, back to mytharc intro to non-surprising idea that there is an angel/heaven tablet. I may have been too shook up with the Samandriel torturing to remember, but in my recollection both boys are doing mytharc work together. While I enjoyed LARP, not mytharc heavy…a reinforcement of not shirking your responsibilities. 8.12 and Henry Winchester, our hero, Sam, is given the magic whatever – in this case , knowledge, he will need for his quest, which we get to see him use in Everyone Hates Hitler. So then, Trial and Error comes along to cement my suspicion, Sam is the hero given the magic weapon and Herculean task. This also solidifies Dean as supporting character.

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    3. Exactly!

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    4. Teresa,
       I am sorry but I can never be made to agree that Sam or Dean are a secondary character on Supernatural. I agree with Ale, all on Team Sam have the same argument in reverse. Who ever has the ‘lead story,’ the other brother is directly related. We can tennis rally back-and-forth who gets the better story, but to me that does not matter, I am Team Winchester, Team Supernatural, NOT Team Sam or Team Dean. Jensen Ackles IS on a show where he is a main character.

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       1. Nate
          Team Winchester all the way!

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       2. Bless you Nate!

          Couldn’t agree more with you.

          Always was Team Winchester and always will be!

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       3. Hello Nate, I understand that no fan of the series wants either Winchester to be secondary. I certainly am not shouting hooray. I am saying look at the main storyline. Look at the mytharc. It’s there whether we want it to be or not. Jensen Ackles WAS on a show where he was a main character. Now he is not. To reiterate what I said in other posts, it does not matter who is more heroic, who is more likeable, or has the more interesting subplot. This season’s mytharc is the tablet story, and it is the story of a hero (Sam) shirking his responsibility, running away, then coming back, being armed with magical weapon (in this case MoL bunker of info) and taking up his Heruclean tasks. No matter if DEan backs Sam up every step of the way, it has been written with Sam as main character, Dean supporting.

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          1. Sorry Teresa, but I HAVE looked at the main story, and I HAVE looked at the myth arc and I do not agree with your opinion of things. And it IS an opinion, an interpretation of how you see things, and not fact. I am sorry that you are disappointed in how things are currently unfolding, but there is nothing you can ever say that will make me believe that Dean is in any way a secondary character on this show. He’s far too vital. But feel free to disagree with this opinion, it is only an opinion, but I won’t be changing it any time soon. This show is, has been and always will be a show about TWO brothers hunting monsters, discovering their legacy, saving others and each other.

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             1. I agree with you and Nate, I just do not see Dean as a secondary character.

                “a show about TWO brothers hunting monsters, discovering their legacy, saving others and each”. Exactly!

             2. E – Far be it from me to ever try to change the opinion of anyone who asserts that their mind is made up but offers no proof or example of their opposing viewpoint. That’s like trying to teach a pig to sing. I will offer, however, the suggestion that in analyzing a story objectively, it’s best to use facts – and literary criticism does contain facts not just opinions. Like definitions of plots, and subplots, and characterization, and main characters, and secondary characters. Please, don’t take my word for it – look it up.

             3. I’m sorry, teresa. Your response popped in my inbox, and I felt it to be a little condescending and rude, to be honest. First of all, you may know the definitions for plots, subplots, and main characters, etc. That’s great. And Dean may be a secondary character to you, but everyone has their own interpretations of the storylines and characters on SPN. I can state for a fact that E is a very articulate poster who often provides explanations and examples with her opposing arguments, and does so [i]respectfully [/i] as she did here. There’s no need to be insulting. In fact, when someone resorts to name-calling and belittling to make their point it usually makes them look [i]less [/i]intelligent.

             4. Hello Bamboo24, I called no one a name. I used a colloquialism. And you are the one making this personal. I am merely telling her the truth…there are definitions for these things. I provided them in other discussions on this page. But by all means, look it up, check my facts. If I missed something in Season 8 where Dean has been given other than a supporting role in the main mytharc, please point that out. Otherwise all it is is “Is not” – “Is too” and I know this person but not you, so therefore you (or in this case me) must be in the wrong.

             5. teresa,

                It was the tone of the post and the colloquialism I found to be offensive. Perhaps I am overstepping my bounds. I just read it and thought it was unnecessarily harsh. The problem here is one of treating other opinions with (what I took as) disdain. No one that I saw disagreed with the definitions that you provided. They merely disagreed with your conclusion/interpretation. There’s a difference between saying, “we can agree to disagree” or “I’m sorry but I can’t be convinced” and making the very belittling (IMO) comparison of “teaching a pig to sing.” Perhaps the colloquialism is not intended as an insult? If you meant no offense, I apologize, but I felt it was disrespectful of the view of someone who disagreed with you and found your examples unconvincing. And it’s not a matter of “I know E and not you so you must be in the wrong” – I’d stick up for E whether I “knew” her in this forum or not, as I would you in a heartbeat – it’s the simple matter of disagreeing with a modicum of respect.

                Perhaps I am making this personal. I don’t intend to start anything – the comment just took me by surprise.

             6. Not trying to teach a pig to sing means not wasting time on an impossible task. It is impossible to change any one’s mind when they assert that their mind is made up regardless of what anyone has to say.

             7. [Deleted]

             8. [quote]E – Far be it from me to ever try to change the opinion of anyone who asserts that their mind is made up but offers no proof or example of their opposing viewpoint. That’s like trying to teach a pig to sing. I will offer, however, the suggestion that in analyzing a story objectively, it’s best to use facts – and literary criticism does contain facts not just opinions. Like definitions of plots, and subplots, and characterization, and main characters, and secondary characters. Please, don’t take my word for it – look it up.[/quote]

                Teresa, I’m giving you a warning here. I really don’t care what “trying to teach a pig to sing” means, it goes against our rules, as does the aggressiveness of your post. I’m providing a link here. Your comment actually violated three of our rules, #1, #2, and #6. You have to be nice, be constructive, and show respect.

                I’m okay with you raising objections, but try a different tone.

                https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/64-rules/14338-we-are-a-happy-site-but-there-are-rules.html

             9. Well then, let me say this instead; I may in fact be willing to change my mind if I were to hear a compelling reason to do so, but since I have found nothing in any of your examples or your conclusions to be compelling, reasoned or unbiased enough to consider changing my current opinion, I am holding to my original assertion that Dean is neither a minor character or a secondary character or whatever term you wish to apply to him so that you can consider him lesser and slighted in some way. You continue to provide detailed responses to this argument as though we are all missing some type of “truth” that only you can see. It is, however, all just opinion, no matter how eloquently you put it, no matter how many examples you provide that have been filtered through your own perspective; and you opinion is no more valid than mine, examples or no. The simple truth of the matter is that I don’t agree with you, and you have not swayed my opinion even with your copious use of examples. To provide you with my own examples to the contrary (as I can and have in many, many posts here) I feel would do absolutely nothing to change YOUR perspective either, and I can recognize an exercise in futility when I see it. Perhaps we should agree to disagree in this matter.

                Oh, and by the way, as a professor of voice studies, I can teach anyone to sing, even pigs.

             10. Congratulations on being a voice professor. Here in Texas we use colloquialisms – including the one that you took offense to. I only hold a masters of language and literature myself, but I have taught literature for many years now.

             11. Can we please move on now? I have a high school education and people here never made me feel that my opinion is not good enough because I am not well versed in “literary criticism”, plots, subplots, characterizations, etc. I probably misspelled some of these words. Oh well.

             12. I agree (although I’ll admit I laughed at E’s teaching a pig to sing, sorry but c’mon that’s funny 😀 ). I don’t think any degree makes anyone more qualified to talk about these specific characters on this specific show. First of all, I grew up with around a lot of people with masters and doctorates and often that just makes them sound better when they are talking out there asses.

                 And my brother only has a Associates degree and can hold his own talking with most professors about theology, literature (especially Shakespeare), Greek myths, philosophy, physics, biology. You name it he has probably been obsessed with and likely learned enough to earn a degree.

                 There are brilliant people at every education level.

             13. Absolutely agree. Funny that the topic is kind of thematic to the show. Dean thinks he isn’t as smart because he only has a GED to Sam’s almost completion of his undergraduate law degree.
                 Just from reading and research they both could both have earned any number of degrees in comparative theology, mythology, and a host of other areas. Education and intelligence are separate items completely.

             14. Oh don’t get me wrong the thought of E teaching a pig to sing was hilarious.

             15. You all have got me singing a pig related variation on ‘I’d like to teach the world to sing’….

             16. Joined hoof to hoof spanning the globe..

             17. 😀

             18. Awww, you guys that is SO appropriate for this episode. That sweet feeling of brotherhood. Can we make mine a Dr Pepper instead of a Coke though? Or maybe Diet Coke? 😀

                 OMG, you both cracked me up!

             19. The beverage of your choice 🙂

                 Equal brothers, equal heroes, always!

             20. Hey Kelly, see what you did there. You tied all this back to the episode! Otherwise it might have seemed a tad off topic. Nice job. Diet Dr. pepper for me. Goodnight all.

             21. Is it too late to join in the singsong?
                 I might just have to bring something to add to all the Coke, though…..
                 Oooh. That reminds me…. Who’s still in for the drinking party?

                 I’ll raise the first glass… to the TWO MAIN CHARACTERS on this show. May they always hunt together. And may they always inspire great debate.
                 Cheers.

             22. UGH! Kelly Dr. Pepper?! Finally something that we disagree about! Dr. Pepper is vile! Diet Coke with Lime?

             23. Hey, I’m a Pepper lover too 🙂 Thems fightin words!

             24. E, Dr Pepper is the nectar of the Gods. While your taste in television shows is exemplary, your tastebuds are those of heathens. Swords at dawn!

                 st50, what exactly are you adding to the Coke? If its Dean favorite type beverage than maybe adding swords to the equation is a bad idea.

                 But I will always toast the Winchester’s AND a great debate.

             25. Ok so what the crod is a Dr. Pepper. Sounds like a drink! you guys are going to throw yourselves on a sword for this! 8) Kelly your MUST be addicted.

             26. Kaz, really it is the only pop (soda, softdrink) worth drinking. Sublime 🙂 There might possibly be bloodshed. Kelly, if you should fall on the field of battle at dawn, I will take up your sword! Long live DP.

             27. E, you continue your blasphemy. I will have satisfaction.

                 Thank you Leah, the honor of Dr Pepper must be defended!!

             28. Think of Dean (Braveheart) in LARP. OK trying to bring it back to the show again. 🙂

             29. Just…. bleh!!! It’s soooo sweet. And for me, a confirmed sweet tooth that’s saying something. Every time I taste one I get the impression that the contents of the can could stand up and retain its can shape, like jello from a mold. Ugh.

             30. Thats why I drink diet DP. All reg soda tastes too sweet IMO. Bleh? Ugh? No way. 😉 Bliss!!

             31. I don’t recall saying I was offended. I actually found your comment funny, and thought I was returning the favor by being funny as well, but I guess a sense of humor is a varied thing….

             32. teresa, I think I see the disconnect. Because the way I see the season is kickass (Sam isn’t even shown for the first like 6-7minutes) return from Purgatory, than a very cool release of Benny. (who has no connection to Sam, typically secondary characters don’t have a bunch of their own secondary characters revolving around them. Especially when the main character doesn’t have any.) Then we having him being the driving character while Sam is reluctant to continue to fight. He pushes to find Kevin. Once they find Kevin and find out what is on it Dean is the one pushing them to get the tablet back and close the gates of hell.

                 Dean pushing an extremely reluctant Sam (and the story) continues for the next 10 episodes. While they have Sam moping, Dean is taking charge again and again. Finding new cases and dragging Sam along. Dean is also the one who get to go off on Sam misdeeds from the past 8 years while Sam gets the big defense of “you had Benny”. Sam basically spends one entire episode in a hotel room while Dean reconnects with Benny and fight vampire.

                 When Cas comes back, does he have heart to heart’s with Sam?- no he is having talks with his almost brother like friend Dean. During Sam’s FB’s we seeing fixing sinks and talking with a bitchy vet. While we see Dean fighting monsters in Purgatory. Given all this I have to admit I have very little sympathy for this your view regarding this season.

                 Again I don’t begrudge Dean any of this story. He is a main character and deserves it, but is an equally important character and also needs to be part of the story. I love the two boys equally but SAM is the one with a crappy storyline this season not Dean. And my sister and nieces, total Dean girls, completely agreed with me. And the male members of the family took to fast forwarding through the Sam/Amelia scenes. And the sad thing is they didn’t miss anything. Can you honestly say the same about any part of Dean’s storyline?

             33. Absolutely agree that Purgatory was the more compelling story, but it has been used to introduce a new character and make a comparison with what Dean did in the time apart and what Sam did.
                 I disagree that the Amelia story was not part of the main story. In Season 8 Sam is being presented as the reluctant hero who shirked his duties then has to be pushed and pulled into completing his reponsibilities. He was responsible for Kevin and ran away. He should have at least researched to attempt to figure out where Dean was. I never claimed that Sam is being presented in the best light – he is not. This time is as bad as the demon blood drinker for bad portrayal…that’s where Sam girls and Jared Padalecki fans should be spending their time complaining about. This guy was due for a more heroic portrayal – and maybe the writers figured that giving him the main arc makes up for that? That is speculation on my part (see I know the difference.) But for someone who enjoyed the give and take of having two main characters Seasons 1-5, season 8 is continuing a trend that is frustrating.
                 It was the writers’ choice to make it only one can do the tasks and then pick Sam by having the old drinking game combo of Dean gets thrown into something and drops his weapon at a crucial point. Their choice to present MoL Bunker information as a great boon for Sam instead of both.

             34. I find your facts slanted, interpreted and more observation than fact, so I choose to disregard them as inadequate to the argument.

             35. I just want to put my 2 cents here. I love literature and I love analyzing characters, plots etc. (duh, why would I be here if I didn’t). But I hate definitions. Bores me to death. I relate to that scene in the movie “Dead Poets Society”: a student is reading the intro in his text book about how to appreciate a poem, like you make a graphic etc. And then Robin Williams interrupts and tells everyone to rip off those pages from the book. Ha! Poetry, literature, arts in general comes from the heart, you cannot measure it.

                 That’s why I cannot say exactly why (and I don’t want to), but I feel Sam and Dean are always equally important to the story. Neither is a main or a secondary character.

             36. Ale, I actually watched that movie a couple days ago, and I absolutely [i]loved[/i] that Robin Williams had them tear out those pages. Just listening to what was written there had me wrinkling my nose.
                 I don’t believe that literature [i]can[/i] be interpreted in absolutes or strict definitions.

33. I am so happy to have two episodes I genuinely enjoyed in a row. I’ve glanced over the other posters’ comments don’t have too much to add at this point other than:

    This is not Sam the champion and Dean the sidekick. The outcome of every trial where a brother has tried to solve matters on his own has been a new level of disaster. The only ways they have had successes involve working together. Sam may strike the final blow, but only if Dean helps him reach the target. They need each other for this.

    I don’t think this is too much reaching for the past. The show has had two main characters who have no hope for the future long enough. Sam has rediscovered his optimism and faith, and Dean is at least willing to believe in a future for Sammy. I do not see that as suicidal, because we have seen suicidal Dean, and this is not despair. It is Dean’s version of hope, or at least the best he can do right now.

    Kevin is in serious trouble, even before Dean gave him the second bottle. This will not go well.

    Crowley not explaining the rules is the biggest nitpick for me. That’s not like him. I notice that children are still allowed to make deals though. Always one of the more disturbing parts of the pact.

    More like this please!

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34. I just got done watching “Trial and Error”, haven’t read the comments above, but will shortly. Please forgive my over enthusiastic use of exclamation points and rambling. On to my comments.

    Holy Chuck! When you don’t even get through the beginning credits, and you’ve already had your heartstrings tugged so many times… Dean arranging his new room, & the picture of his mom. It’s like he finally feels he has a real home. His look when Sam throws the gum wrapper! Who would have thought that Dean would have been the fastidious one? Sam seeing the picture of Dean and their mom and his expression? Dean taking care of Sam regarding the burgers, and the fact that Sam acknowledged the burger was really good. Brotherly ribbing about Dean knowing what to do with a kitchen & Dean “nesting”. Sam taking the burger with him after the call from Kevin! And that’s all in the first 5 minutes of the show. All I could think was “Aww, that’s so sweet!” Needless to say, I was really excited about the episode just from the first 5 minutes! I just got done watching the episode and couldn’t believe how much I loved it. That makes 4 episodes in a row!

    I didn’t take Dean’s comments about doing the trials himself, as suicidal. I took it as Dean doesn’t see a way out that doesn’t result in death and he won’t watch Sam die. I don’t think he wants to die (key difference), so this is different from previous seasons. I think he believes it needs to happen for the greater good, more along the lines of the risks that cops/firefighters/military members take in the line of duty. Since he believes the trials result in death, he will die. Sam going through the trials with the belief that he can survive, means that he has a better chance of surviving. I think it worked out for the best. And we all know that with Sammy in harms way, Dean will always have his brother’s back. However, both speeches (Dean’s to Sam, and Sam’s back to Dean), both made me tear up. 😥 Protective older brother, idolizing little brother. It was nice to see the brothers’ relationship was still there at the core, no matter what other crap happened for the first half of the season. But more mature than we’ve seen in the past.

    I loved the concern over Kevin, etc. But what I really liked, was the demonstration of the brothers’ relationship. Anyone else curious about Dean’s comments about the 6000 kinds of tomatoes, after his harassing Sam about the farmer’s market? Curious to see how Dean’s nuturing traits will come out, now that he has a home. The glimpses in this episode make me giggle. 😀

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    1. When Sam says ” I believe in you. So please, please believe in me too”, it reminded me of 2 episodes. First, when Dean is about to say Yes to being Michael’s meat suit, and he says he changes his mind because he didn’t want to let Sam down. Second, when Sam says yes to Lucifer, after pleading with Dean to believe in him. Ultimately, Sam was successful, but it was because of the strength of his bond with his brother. Actually, both events were “successful” (this is Supernatural after all) because of the strength of their bond as brothers. I see this as a continuation of the same. Not that things couldn’t go badly, but their bond is why it always has to be them. It keeps them true to their goals. Does that make sense? It is 11:30 at night right now, so I might be a bit chaotic in my thoughts.

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35. Oh my word, I woke up to 92 emails from WFB! Something must be up with the fandom.

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    1. I just got home from a 10 shift at work and found 150!!!! All but 5 or 6 from this thread and the others from con thread. Yikes! Love is in the air……….

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36. There’s a huge difference in whether a story is told with a certain character’s point of view and whether or not that character is a main character. I wouldn’t like to see it, but I wonder if the warning about perspective didn’t include this. The Great Gatsby, with Gatsby as the major character is told entirely in a minor character’s POV. So when I say Sam is the main character this season (and in most of the earlier seasons) it doesn’t matter if the story is told from his point of view. The main plot points this season present Sam as the main character. I didn’t realize that was going to be true in the beginning either – episodes 8.1-8.3 were about the tablet arc, but except that Sam was always the one to find what needed found or save the day, they were fairly even. The next three episodes Heartache, Bitten, and Southern Comfort will go down as pretty forgettable and mytharc light. Sam solves those and saves Dean. Blood Brother did showcase Dean as the uber hunter he supposedly became in Purgatory (something they didn’t show us while he kept needing to be rescued and which the writers immediately took away in Citizen Fang where one vamp got the drop on Dean.) But Sam took over the Benny side story here too. Sam is the one who solves things in A Slice of Kevin and Hunteri Heroici too. When we finally add an additional dimension to the over-arcing story with the Men of Letters, it seems as though that’s all about Sam too. So I, like many others who want it to be two brothers of equal importance, really hoped when the tasks came up they would be equally as important for both brothers to participate, but uber-hunter (maybe) Dean needed to be saved again by Sam, cementing Sam’s role as the most important to the main storyline of the season. Whatever the intent, the writers have made Dean a secondary character, and no amount of childish behavior and weird one-liners changes that. As for the Purgatory story being more compelling, yes, I agree, but the Amelia in Texas…thing… was given equal billing and actually more air time. Additionally, all Dean’s character growth gained from Purgatory and then finding out he had not failed his friend, as well as the PTSD, is swept aside as not important.(Or nonexistent when you look at how easily he gets taken down.) I get why people aren’t happy about Sam’s side story – hell, neither was I. I just don’t want Dean to be regulated to cook, driver, and comic relief to make up for it.

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    1. I have to say this is the first Dean-sided rant that I’ve read. Not sayin’ that it’s good or not good, just that it’s different. I have read sooooo many post lamenting Sam’s character as the secondary brother. It’s kind of nice to read something opposite, just for the sake of balance.

       I myself don’t see either brother written as the better one or the more important one… But this post has been interesting to read!

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    2. All of this! SO MUCH! ALL OF THIS!!!

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    3. Really. Thank you for this. Especially the last part, because housewife!Dean? Seriously wtf?!

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       1. [quote]Really. Thank you for this. Especially the last part, because housewife!Dean? Seriously wtf?![/quote]

          Aw, come on, housewife!Dean???? More like hot edgy-hunter-yet-better-adjusted-and-happier Dean! Ima love that boy no matter what he does, but I don’t think fixing a sandwich is going to make him any less badass than he has always been!

          I’m a die-hard Dean fan (like wake up at 5, work til my nose bleeds, and eat hot dogs everyday for a month if I could get hug from Dean kind of fan), and I’m really happy with this episode.

          Who gets to the be hero is irrelevant to me. The show isn’t about who’s the hero and who’s the sidekick. It’s about two brothers doing what they do and coming to terms with who they are. Dean is a hunter, and he isn’t any less of a hunter – or any less important – just because he wasn’t the one to complete the trial.

          I’m really looking forward to seeing what unfolds. But I’m certain whatever it is, Dean will be smack at the center of it – just as much as Sam will be.

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          1. Amen to that!

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          2. Quoting Fool For Dean:
             [quote]Who gets to the be hero is irrelevant to me. The show isn’t about who’s the hero and who’s the sidekick. It’s about two brothers doing what they do and coming to terms with who they are. Dean is a hunter, and he isn’t any less of a hunter – or any less important – just because he wasn’t the one to complete the trial. [/quote]
             Thank you, I so agree with you on that. I tune in every week and watch my DVD’s more times than I can count BECAUSE of both brothers. I love them equally, and I think the show is not pro Sam or pro Dean, but pro Winchester. 😉

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    4. Wrote a nasty reply, but deleted it.

       Just have to say I couldn’t disagree more with this. Do we even watch the same show?

       Love the brothers equally. Love Dean lustily and love Sam brotherly. Adore them both together!

       LOVED the episode. LOVED Dean nesting. LOVE Dean cooking, driving and comic reliefing. LOVE badass hunter Dean, protective big brother Dean and weep for his low self esteem and fears of being abandoned.

       LOVED what Sam said to Dean. Been waiting a long time for that speech. it filled a hole in my gut that’s been there since Sam sneaked out of the room in Lazarus Rising and left Dean alone asleep the first night he got back from hell!
       Always knew Dean loved his Sammy, but since that time, had my doubts if Sam really loved Dean. Yay! Finally that hole has been filled and Sammy is back!

       Anyway, this is how I see the show, the opposite of your view. If Dean was not there, who would be watching? The two J’s love what they are doing. Just watch them at a convention! They lucked out with their parts and they are aware of that and grateful.

       The writers HAVE NOT made Dean a secondary character, any way you look at it! Well, maybe not you!

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       1. Thank you for responding respectfully. I am an admitted Lit Geek and brought analysis to the way the show is being written. While you are entitled to love everything the writers do, I must also respectfully point out that what you said has nothing to do with whether or not Dean is a secondary character as written. Secondary characters can be loveable – funny – etc. without being the main character.

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          1. Teresa, of course there are many examples of the narrator of the story not being the main character. Usually, it is the more typically guy, narrating for the quirky, less accessible character (IE Sherlock and Watson). But usually those characters are completely driving, pretty much every aspect of the story. You can replace the narrator from the story and the action would still continue through someoneelse eyes. This happened several times in Agatha Christie series.

             Dean has completely driven the story on many occasions, not just this season but throughout the series. So much so when my family first started watching in they thought Sam was the sidekick. I even read early season reviews that wondered if Dean was going to completely overshadow Sam and if the focus was going to become entirely about him. Now I’ll admit that did change and Sam became just as important and has often been the driving force, but not always.

             And there should be a balance since this show as two equally important leads. Now I’ll admit I’ve been bitching non-stop about Sam’s storyline but that doesn’t mean I begrudge the fact that Dean has a great one this season. They BOTH need great storylines. I don’t see Dean suddenly fading away simply because Sam is actually part of the story now.

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             1. Hi Kelly, Thanks for the thought-provoking response. I tried to answer sooner but my phone was being non-cooperative. So, first let me point out that I am talking Season 8 here. The Kripke years were pretty well balanced with both characters having vital roles to play. Season 6 and Season 7 at times left me wondering about both boys and their roles, though I would point out that the more plot driven were Souless Sam and the quest to regain his Soul, then Crazy Sam and getting Lucifer out of his head. So I came to Season 8 looking for some balance. By this episode, I became convinced that Dean has become a secondary character.
                Let’s try to find a story we can both use to compare…Lord of the Rings?
                No matter whether Samwise Gamgee is vital in his supporting role, or even as many have argued the only heroic character, Frodo Baggins is the main character of Lord of the Rings. Likewise with Dean and Sam Winchester lately. Time on screne, how compelling their various subplots, etc. does not determine who is the main character.
                For some reason, the writers have chosen to make Dean the Samwise Gamgee to Sam’s Frodo Baggins.

             2. Wow, I’m really scratching my head here.
                We CAN’T be watching the same show. We just can’t.
                Because almost EVERY season has put Sam front and center!
                I always thought DEAN was the sidekick for the way they always made Sam out to be the hero, the important one.
                And how could anyone in any review come to the worry that Dean would possibly overshadow Sam, when in EVERY interview with Carver and Singer this year, all they talked about was Sam, never hardly a thing about Dean!
                Yes, there should be balance, but I’m sorry, the show I’ve always watched has blatantly favored the character of Sam, giving him not just a good one off episodes once in a while like they did with Dean but WHOLE season long, important arcs. As well as any real love interests (and don’t Lisa, she was never shown to be a great romance but a promise to Sam).
                Dean has NO story this season, great or otherwise, And any time in the past when it looked like he might, the focus was switched to Sam’s story.

             3. Roxi, I’ve read a couple of your comments here and I respect your opinion. You obviously feel very strongly about this. But for the last year or two I’ve read hundreds of comments that said the same thing. Only Sam’s name is where you have Dean’s name and they felt just as strongly as you. Now the comments have shifted. Is it because Sam saved Dean and is doing the trials? I really don’t get it. I am pretty brother neutral, go “Team Winchester”. As much as I love Dean, I just don’t agree with you. As I don’t share the notion that the show is all about Dean with Sam getting slighted all the time. Although to be fair Sam DID get a raw deal at the beginning of this year IMO. We ARE ALL watching the same show with our own perspectives and opinions.

             4. Respectfully then, we’ll just have to disagree and let it go at that. I certainly am not trying to bully anyone. Just really do find it difficult to believe that anyone could think it’s Sam that get’s the shaft when to me, how could he be when he gets EVERY major story, but what ever. I’m just happy they’re getting along better now. I’d really be happy if Dean would get a real, romantic love story, although I know SPN is not about that, and in the long run it would work, but just want to see that side of him once.
                And this episode finally did get one thing right; Dean has dark BLOND hair, and usually they have dark haired little boys playing him when you know as a small child and a teenager as well, he would’ve have been blonder than he is now., but that picture showed him as the little towhead he would have surely been, as Jensen himself was.
                And I did like the little smile Sam had when he saw Dean’s picture with Mary.

          2. [quote] Secondary characters can be loveable – funny – etc. without being the main character.[/quote]

             Absolute agree. But I must also point out that main characters can also NOT be THE hero and still be a main character.

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             1. Hi Fool For Dean, I suspect you said this before I responded to Kelly. I do not disagree with this, The test of the main character is who the main story or mytharc is about: Sam shirks his responsibilities, gets drawn back, set on his path again given the magical weapon and undertakes the heroic task.

    5. 😀 Nick Calloway as a minor character?!? He may not be the title character, but there is no doubt in my mind that he is the MAIN character. Nick may not generate much of the plot, and be an observer in the things that go on in the story, but it is HIS view that counts, it’s how the audience understands the events as they unfold, it is Nick’s emotions that we feel and it’s through him that we learn of all of the stories events and stay connected to the other characters. He is the witness, the sounding board, the cataloguer of events, the judge, the friend, the everyman and the only rational and logical mind in a world gone seemingly mad around him. Additionally he is the avatar for Fitzgerald, ultimately connecting the reader with the larger issues of morality and the destruction of the American Dream that are the central message being explored by the author. Without Nick Calloway there would be no story at all. That isn’t secondary at all IMO. As a matter of fact, it’s not a story about Jay Gatsby at all, it’s a story of how Nick’s association with Jay and all of the tragedy that takes place affects Nick and in turn, affects us, the audience as well.

       I’ll grant that Supernatural is often like The Great Gatsby at times, with much of the plot surrounding Sam/Jay Gatsby while much of the reaction, emotion, and perspective to those events are revealed through Dean/Nick Calloway. This was particularly true in season 4 during the Demon Blood addiction storyline, and again in season 6 with Soulless Sam. It’s been that way for a large portion of this season as well. These things, the plot and the perspective are two halves of a whole and neither is dispensable to the overall success of the series. Perhaps you don’t appreciate Dean’s role as everyman, the bearer of emotion and giver of perspective and want him to drive the plot too. Well, there are dozens of Sam fans on this sight who want the reverse; for Sam to have his perspective to be told, for his emotions to be felt, and for him to stop being a walking, talking plot point for Dean to react too and be a problem for Dean to fix. None of this makes Dean secondary IMO, it makes him as indispensable as Nick Calloway is in The Great Gatsby. Without Dean there would be no story at all and no way for the audience to relate to the events as they unfold. That’s my take, from one literary geek to another.

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       1. E – I never used the term “minor” character. I said secondary, and again, I am looking at Season 8. I actually think seasons 1-5 did an excellent job building main arcs for both Dean and Sam. (I would argue that Seasons 6 and 7 started the trend of Sam as main character, Souless then Crazy – neither putting Sam in a particularily good light IMO) Nor is a secondary character necessarily dispensable … an example there would be Samwise Gamgee or Hans Solo. Both were needed to complete the main character’s quest.
          Nick Calloway, as with any time a seconday character is used to tell the main character’s story, may or not be completely reliable, which if this is also true in SPN Season 8 brings us back to perspective as a main theme behind the season.

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          1. I apologize in advance for the length of this post, it’s a doozie. 😉
             “Minor” character, “secondary” character its just semantics. The point is you seem to be trying to argue that Dean is somehow less important than Sam and you used Nick Carraway (Sorry, wrote Nick Calloway before… sue me, I’m a music and theatre professor, not a lit professor!) from The Great Gatsby as an example to support your argument. In a large portion of the literary criticism I’ve read, Nick is the entire focal point of the book, the avatar for the author and the moral compass of the story . Without him there would be no way to relate adequately the events of the story to an audience outside the scope of the drama. To align Dean Winchester’s function in Supernatural with Nick’s is to increase his importance in the scope of the drama tenfold IMO, because without Dean there would be no Supernatural just as without Nick there would be no way to understand what’s happening in The Great Gatsby. Primary characters are central to the action, the story cannot exist without their input, responses (either physical and/or emotional) sometimes they drive the action, sometimes they respond or comment, but their participation is essential to the unfolding of events. Secondary characters are provided to populate the created universe, to make events believable, to often drive action but only in so much as it gives the primary characters a chance to respond, but the events would still exist and unfold without them to a certain extent and their responses and actions do not drive the drama. Believe me, as a Mezzo- Soprano in the opera world, I know secondary characters; I play loads of them. The secondary character mantra is “it’s not about me, it’s not about me.” Dean is certainly the former and not the latter as is Nick Carraway; it IS about Dean, its always been about Dean. However, IMO Sam has often been relegated to the latter status.

             E – I never used the term “minor” character. I said secondary, and again, I am looking at Season 8. I actually think seasons 1-5 did an excellent job building main arcs for both Dean and Sam. (I would argue that Seasons 6 and 7 started the trend of Sam as main character, Souless then Crazy

             So, your assertion is that Sam was the main character in seasons 6 and 7 because of his story lines and the (IMO inadequate) attention paid to those story lines and that Dean was somehow relegated to secondary character status because nothing he was doing was relevant to the grander story at large? That is my interpretation of your assertion. Here is my rebuttal: He Stopped the Mother of All by first getting the Phoenix ash, secondly being smart enough to ingest it and then manipulating Eve into biting him thereby killing her, single handedly removing her as a threat. He then single handedly saves Lisa and Ben (Sam was unconscious in a locked room at the time) from the demons that captured them. Next he tries to talk Castiel out of his plans to open Purgatory (once again, Sam is nowhere to be seen in this part of the drama) and when this fails, formulates the plan to try and stop him, enlisting Bobby’s help to do so. Finally he confronts Castiel and manages to save a damaged Sam when Sam fails to kill Castiel. All of Dean’s actions and observations drove the totally of the story line. Sam’s collapse and deteriorating condition at the end of season 6 took him OUT of the main action, thus relegating HIM to the status of secondary character in season 6 IMO.

             In season 7 the main myth arc is the Leviathan. Sam’s increasing difficulty with his Lucifer hallucinations make him less and less able to be of any use to his participation in this main story line. He becomes increasingly ineffective and removed from it, leaving Dean to once again single handedly take on the burden of the resolution and of saving Sam as well. So I will assert again, that this makes Sam the secondary character, as he is the one removed from the main events of the story line and is unable to participate or drive the action toward it in any way. Dean is the only functioning member throughout much of the season and it is he who is fixated on stopping the leviathan to the point of obsession AND the one ultimately to do so, thus earning his one way ticket to Purgatory. In addition, Dean was dealing with a nearly crippling level of depression, was drinking heavily and Sam was not in any condition to assist him. I still fail to see how any of this makes Dean secondary or minor or in any way less involved. Season 7, was incredibly uneven IMO and I felt that neither brother was given much focus in their own show. The Leviathan story line was uneven at best and Sam’s broken wall resulted in some palm rubbing and a pathetically easy quick fix by Castiel in the eleventh hour.

             Season 8 IMO opinion has continued this trend of Sam as secondary character and Dean as primary as I have outlined for seasons 6 and 7 above by making Dean primarily involved in the unfolding plot points and by making Sam less involved by having him hang back or removed entirely from all events, i.e. quitting hunting, abandoning Kevin to his fate, not looking for Dean. I do concede that in the past three episodes (As Time Goes By, Everyone Hates Hitler, Trial and Error) we have seen Sam’s character become much more centrally involved (finally) than in the previous 11 episodes of the season. It’s only three episodes out of 14, hardly a dominant amount, and until I see the remaining nine, I refuse to speculate on the nature of those episodes and how they will play into the larger story being told. Now, having said that I feel as though Sam has finally become more central to the current running plot line, I do not in any way concede that this makes Dean less central or marginalized. Because Sam was so isolated and removed from things for much of this season so far (by virtue of a “human” love affair that many fans found totally and completely unsatisfying and irrelevant) the PTB had to find a way to involve him in current affairs of his own free will (rather than Dean belittling him and tricking him into participating), hence the MoL storyline, which is something that Sam can really connect to in the hunting world. For the first time in perhaps the history of the show Sam has an element in hunting that appeals to him, that plays to his strengths, allowing him to go from reluctant to willing participant. Maybe Dean hasn’t found a way to connect to this side of his Winchester legacy yet, but just because he hasn’t in three episodes doesn’t mean he can’t or won’t. Additionally, Sam is now directly connected to the Gates of Hell arc by virtue of the fact that he stepped in to save Dean from the Hell Hound. I actually really like the way this was handled; Dean and his ‘my way or the highway’ attitude is forced to hand over the reins to Sam simply by default. For better or for worse, Sam is the character who will be doing the trails to close the gates of hell. This makes him a central player in just one facet of a season that is shaping up to be multilayered and complex with many wonderful and important plotlines. We still don’t know what Cas/Naomi’s issues will lead to and how they might affect the brothers, and there are still the lingering issues of Benny and Purgatory, which IMO are unresolved and destined to reappear. Dean was the primary character in his purgatory arc, in his dealings with Benny, in his guilt over Cas, in his driven and almost ruthless quest to close the gates of hell and his condemnation of Sam and his year away from Hunting. Just because Dean is not doing the trials themselves, does not mean he is secondary in the trial story or secondary on this show. He drove the action and had the lion’s share of the POV and emotion and was centrally connected to everything up to this point. To say that he has been relegated to a secondary character since season 6 is a gross overestimation IMO and does not stand up to analysis, and here is my (extensive) list of examples and my critical analysis based upon plot points to prove my point. You are free to agree or disagree.

             Reply

             1. E
                Loquacious 🙂 but well though out E, thanks. I can never understand why there is this ‘main character’ debate between the brothers. I see the shift of focus between the seasons as you do and I never feel that one brother is favoured above the other overall. I still maintain though that in the past J2 have asked for some time off during some eps which I think has been honoured. If you look at the birth of his son dates and the ep’s where he has been written light, they coincide. Maybe I am wrong about this but I have a feeling that this is going to happen to Jensen next season at the birth of his daughter (I predict 😆 ). I believe their work schedules are crazy, so it makes sense.

                [quote]I actually really like the way this was handled; Dean and his ‘my way or the highway’ attitude is forced to hand over the reins to Sam simply by default. For better or for worse, Sam is the character who will be doing the trails to close the gates of hell. This makes him a central player in just one facet of a season that is shaping up to be multilayered and complex with many wonderful and important plotlines.[/quote]

                Totally agree here. I love the fact that Sam gets to save Dean. I know he has many times before, but I think his deed this time is co-dependency free. Also it was done in the moment, so it wasn’t a deliberate strategy, but more of them acting as a team again.

             2. Thanks Kaz1! Teresa wanted examples and an analysis and so I gave her one with plot points and factual events from episodes, logically drawing conclusions that are the exact opposite of the ones that she drew, all of which are valid because interpretation is interpretation and not fact.

             3. Thank you, E, for taking on Gatsby. I know I read it. I had to read it. Everyone had to read it, I think. But for the life of me I couldn’t remember anything except it took place in the 20’s. And you made a fine case for season 6, here’s my alternative analysis.

                That SS wasn’t the hero/protagonist of the first half of S6 at all (secondary or otherwise), but the antagonist. He is the one who comes in to disrupt the protagonist’s (Dean’s) life. Several times he worked actively against Dean. In almost every episode of that part of the season, one of two are the case. In a few of the episodes, you might make a case for anti-hero, but I think overall for that part of the season antagonist works the best. I completely agree with the analysis of the rest of S6.

                S7 is hard, I feel like Sam HAD a great storyline, but it wasn’t really utilized and that Dean didn’t really have a great one, but most of the focus was on him. While I loved a lot of the individual episodes, for the overall season they both got equally screwed.

                I definitely think a case could be made for Sam being the secondary character in the first part of this season.

             4. Hi Kelly! Thanks for the support, and thanks for reading to the end of that giant post!. 😀 I like your idea that Sam became the antagonist while soulless in season 6, I think that works well because he was sometimes an ally and sometimes an adversary. He was such a loose canon then, unpredictable and well, hotter than a Texas sidewalk in summer.

                Season 7 IS hard. I was looking back at the episodes and realized again how seemingly haphazard they were. I am not sure if there was supposed to be a through line there, but if there was one, it wasn’t obvious to me. There were some nice episodes but as a whole the season was kind of a mess. Sam was given the basic pieces of what should have been a great story, but it never came together, and he was robbed of any meaningful resolution when Cas quick fixed everything at the end, and Dean wasn’t given much of anything, but had all the screen time and POV so that we could sit around watching him grow morose and drink. Yawn. And then his story, (what little there was) went nowhere either.

                Season 8 is a little hard too, but only because it’s not finished yet; how everything we’ve seen so far is going to ultimately come together and play out isn’t known at this point, so to draw conclusions about season long story arcs is pretty hard at this point. But, I think it will come together nicely and seems to be doing so already. JC seems to be quite a detailed and methodical type of person, pretty important traits for a showrunner IMO.

             5. E,S7 is SOOOO problematic. I had so many issues, but S8 is kinda correcting a lot of those. Such as, kill all monsters, I really like shades of grey and moral dilemmas when it comes to killing things. To me it should be hard sometimes. And maybe this hardline was because of ghostBobby but I prefer to think of it leading up to purgatory and Dean confronting his ideas on this in a place so “pure”. We didn’t get a lot about that but it’s enough that that whole thing last season doesn’t seem pointless.

                Sam’s storyline didn’t ever completely gel. You know I think if I’d had one more episode I would have been fine.Or even just a few more scenes between Sam and Dean. I really loved BAI despite the coat scene, but it did feel like Sam’s story got pushed aside for Cas’. I don’t mind when a secondary character gets the spotlight. I LOVED The Man would be King and Weekend at Bobby’s, but this time it did feel like his story hijacked Sam’s. Even maybe just one more scene between Sam and Dean, if it was good enough, might have done it for me.

                Which leads me to another problem with last season, I’d been feeling a disconnect from Dean most of the season. Yes I can understand depression and apathy, but Sam was dying and Dean just seem all that invested.

                So the brother relationship was the #1 thing I wanted fixed for this season. (last season gripes about Dean I can understand, even if he wasn’t a secondary character, his storyline wasn’t good). But no one can say Dean is not invested this season. So while I would love a line or two explaining his attitude, I’m willing to pretty much let it go, because they corrected it this season.

                But for all the things it fixed from last season, little and big, it created one big whopper of an issue. Such a major issues that it completely overshadows any other issue. Sam 1-10.The weird thing is the only major issue from 7 that 8 hasn’t at least partially corrected is Sam’s dropped storyline. They haven’t address that at all that I can think of. Which is weird when you think about it. Because he’d lost Dean. He ran. Freaked out about hitting a dog. You’d think there would be a mention of his mental state that would have been bad only a few months before he hit the dog.

                When I’m feeling hopeful I think that this is deliberate. That the reason they haven’t mentioned the lost months between Dean disappearing and Amelia or Sam’s mental health from just a few months before is because it is part of some big reveal. That the Amelia stuff was just to throw us off track. That Naomi is going to come into play and there is going to be some freaking fantastic storyline that makes me feel ashamed of myself for ever doubting them.

             6. Kelly
                [quote]I really like shades of grey and moral dilemmas when it comes to killing things. To me it should be hard sometimes. [/quote]

                I know, that is where Sam played a crucial role in the series. He was positioned as demonstrating the everyman POV. I miss that about the later seasons though, especially during SS (although that was some of Jared’s best acting) there was no longer any shock or discussion regarding the ganking. Another example is the way they both just [i]shot[/i] the nazi guy without any hesitation, he didn’t have a gun and he was no threat at that point; although he certainly “had the devil in him, he was no demon” to quote an unfortunate guest character. So why gank him without hesitation. Just MO of course

             7. I’ve gone completely blank. Can anyone tell me the last time there was a demon on the show and when?

             8. Um, do you mean other than Meg or Crowley? Cause I think the last one we saw was in Repo Man.

             9. PaintedWolf
                I find myself actually missing the demons can you believe. Where is Meg these days? Haven’t watched whole episodes so am probably missing quite a bit.
                I am asking because I miss the innocent days where ganking a demon was fairly black and white, and involved much discussion (usually Sam) regarding the moral stance. It is just that I felt a little uncomfortable when they both shot the Nazi Thule in the head (EHH). He wasn’t armed or an immediate threat in any way, so there should have been some discussion IMO regarding killing him outright. I guess I just miss the days when the targets were less human I suppose. Somehow I find myself making a moral distinction between evil demon and evil human, one is supernatural whilst the other is just a shoddy human.

             10. Do you mean just run of the mill demons? Or demons that are characters and recur? There were a few of the run of the mill sort all through the start of season 8, but they were pretty much red-shirts…

             11. E
                 Yes just run of the mill. Earlier seasons had Sam questioning the right to kill the demon knowing there was a person inside. In EHH I felt uncomfortable with them killing the Thule outright; for a second it just felt cold blooded somehow. I never felt like that when it was a demon facing S&D’s weapons. I am surmising it is probably because he is human and not a demon, so is there more of a moral issue here? The fact that I am making this distinction if you understand. What do u think? Did you feel ok with it.

             12. Hey kaz1,
                 My 2 cents…. Killing the Thule guy didn’t bother me, because I really didn’t think there was very much “human” left in him. He’d been playing with life and death, torturing people, and ultimately had ended up not aging for 60- 70 years… my guess is he’d cheated death so often, he really wasn’t “just a bad person” any more. Know what I mean?

                 So while this killing didn’t bother me, I do miss the way they used to agonize over killing, though…. the moral dilemma issues. Even though they’ve cheated death themselves quite often, it made them seem more sympathetic.

             13. Now see I actually feel worse about the demons, when I stop and think about it, because there is a innocent person inside of there. I liked that in 8.2 we at least learned the names of the people who died, they weren’t just faceless demons.

                 In the Thule situation, I was in agreement even though I see your point. Because they’d already shown what these guys could do without weapons. And the boys have faced down powerful witches before and lost. So taking out someone who can burn a person alive, seemed like a fair decision, to me. Plus it was an actual psychotic Nazi, have to admit, hard to work up any sympathy for someone who admitted torturing others.

                 And yet I do like it when they discuss their morals issues with doing what they do. Obviously they can’t do it every time but I definitely wouldn’t mind seeing a few more scenes where it’s done.

             14. It was always so hard for Sam to do, killing demons knowing that there was a human inside. I think that is why that scene was so affective AND unbelievably distressful to witness; knowing how sensitive and compassionate Sam was and then have to watch him go through killing the nurse/demon to stop Lillith.

                 So yes I would like to see them agonise over it again. I still have the screaming of heavens most adorable angel in my head as we speak, but this is supernatural and the family business, so I do understand and I am probably a little prone to squeamishness. I ff’d the torture scenes when the screams got too much. 😥

             15. Yeah, I liked that is was hard too. They’ve always waffled back and forth since they’ve had the knife. If it was in a kill or be killed situation than they would kill without thought. But they used to try to save the victims if there was a chance to. In SS, they drained the demons for the blood to drink, noting was said, but they all look a little queasy and uncomfortable.

                 Around about S6, they seemed to stop considering the host at all. In Let It Bleed, I do think the torture was supposed to be uncomfortable (it definitely made me uncomfortable) But not much was said about the human inside. It also seems to depend on the writer, we gotten an all to real glimpse of what torture does to the host in Repo Man.

                 But mostly it is completely ignored unless their is a purpose. Such as in 8.2, I think that telling the names was to bring the hosts back in view because later in the episode Mrs. Tran would be possessed and we were shown the consequences of that earlier.

             16. I thought about that too… they didn’t hesitate at all, just blew him away and seemed satisfied with that. But then again, how human was he anyway? He wasn’t one of the “raised from the dead” Thule, at least that’s what I think Sam said, and yet he hadn’t aged at all from 1942, so not totally human and nice and slimily eeeevile. I was taken aback by S&D’s ruthlessness though.

                 About regular old demons there’ve been quite a few so far, especially early on and neither Sam nor Dean has shown much in the way of a moral dilemma in killing them. Even the reverse exorcism demon; Sam only said it in reverse so that he could keep the demon inside the person so he could kill. You’ve come a long way Sammy, and maybe not in a good way either.

             17. I’m sorry, but I don’t have any sympathy for nazis. Especially nazis that torture people and want to live forever to keep killing.

                 Sam and Dean killed them in an instant. Bravo!

                 It may sound harsh but I don’t care.

                 About the regular demons…. That is really bothering me. They don’t try exorcism anymore. There are people inside, boys! They have to address it. It was a real issue since Meg S01, and must be still so.

             18. Um…. I don’t feel like I indicated that I felt any sympathy for Nazi’s especially as they were portrayed in this episode… so, I’m not sure why you are offended on that front? It was more a comment on Sam and Dean’s ruthlessness than anything else. Sam in particular USED to consider the killing of a human, any human and that seems to have changed quite a bit these days.

             19. E, I’m sorry, I wasn’t implying you were demonstrating sympathy for nazis! And I’m not offended! But rereading my post, I can see why you felt like that. My mistake!

                 What I was saying is that, in this case, I don’t see why the boys would have any doubt on killing, human or not. No margin for discussion, and no regret.

                 But in any other situation I completely agree with you: they seem not to have a problem now in killing humans, specially when is a demon vessel. Not even Sam. That’s not good, the writers have to address it.

             20. No problem!!! 😀 . I want my moral Sammy back too. I was pretty shocked that he said a reverse exorcism just so he could keep the demon in the host, and then had no issue what-so-ever in killing her. I liked the arguments between the brothers on that stand point. Remember how shocked they were to find that there was still a live girl inside the body when they were torturing Meg?

             21. Yes! Those good, innocent times…

                 But there is no reason for our lovely boys to turn into Dexters.

             22. On a second thought…

                 In that same episode, Dean killed the vessel of Meg’s brother and then said he didn’t even flinch.

                 And I don’t know how close Sam was of shooting his father a second time, this time to kill.

                 And John screaming for Sam to shoot him in the heart!

                 Ok, not so innocent…

                 That was one of the most gut wrenching scene for me of the entire series.

             23. When they’re in the heat on the battle it doesn’t bother me as much, but like the lady in 8.2 was just as bad as killing the nurse. Because they had a chance to save and didn’t.

             24. E, that bothered me a lot too. They didn’t even try to save the woman and in fact put the demon back in and then killed her. It was a kickass scene, but it did seem pretty heartless. When I first saw I thought it was an indication that Sam had been hunting and had gone a little dark. Now it just seems kinda bad.

37. Absolutely loved it! That’s 3 episodes in a row now that I have thoroughly enjoyed. It was a bit of a wait (well, all the way until Ep.12) but I can definitely say that S8 has finally started for me. These last 3 episodes are definitely on my re-watch list.
    I’m a die-hard Sam fan but there’s nothing more on this show that has me melting into happy fangirl mush than Protective/Big Brother!Dean. I also really love me some Hurt!Sam (it sounds so bad saying that I love seeing my boy hurt 😆 ) so I’m looking forward to see what happens to him in future trials. The poor boy was in some serious pain after he said that spell.
    I LOVED the talks between the boys in this episode. It’s so good to be seeing the warm, close brotherly relationship back again. Loved seeing how happy Dean is with his own room, hope we get to see Sam’s room too sometime.

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38. [quote]
    The episode did raise an interesting conundrum in relation to what will happen to souls when they die, do they all go to heaven? What if heaven’s gates are closed, will the souls of those who die all just float around.[/quote]

    It is interesting that there are so many unanswered questions about where souls/spirits (which may be different things) go.
    The Reapers say they don’t know. When they reap people they tell them they have to discover it for themselves. Also if they don’t reap at the appointed time then the person becomes a ghost and ‘no changing your mind later’. So reapers can’t come back for you if you refuse?

    Ghosts burn up when they are hunted – are ghosts spirits / souls? Do they go on to heaven or hell? If so how come hunters can do what Reapers can’t?

    When souls were used in the battle of heaven they were power sources. So were they used up? If so what happened to them? Souls can’t be destroyed (Death said that to Dean I think).

    How come a soul is just available for use by a warring faction? That isn’t exactly eternal rest is it? (I know that a lot of the souls came from hell, does that mean that all souls in hell were ‘sold’ to hell either by deals or just by the way the person lived?).

    What happened to the monsters killed in Purgatory?
    Why did Castiel ask the question about where the Purgatory creatures go?

    Why have the parent Winchesters never been seen since? Where did John Winchester go at the end of season 2?

    Is heaven really a final resting place for people? It seems more like a half-way house run by angels for their own purposes.

    Do people who go to hell who aren’t evil but have made deals for whatever reason really deserve to stay there for eternity? Actually, does anyone?

    Is there a difference between demons and people possessed by demons?

    How can people be resurrected after death?

    Where is God in all this?

    My take on all these questions is that I think that there will be revealed to be an actual afterlife which is external to the earth/heaven/hell/purgatory states of being that we have seen so far.
    It may be that when heaven, hell and purgatory are closed down that souls can actually move on to the next life directly.

    Reply

39. Thanks Darya I KNEW I was missing a major unexplained question – the dead angels! Most dead demons go back to hell but some don’t if killed in non-standard ways. With angels they are just gone.

    Reply

40. I thought souls couldn’t be created or destroyed (Newton is smiling). My thoughts are that its either eternal feathers or fire for every soul unless you exercise you option to neither, which means you basically stay in limbo on earth as a ghost. Sam’s soul was defo in hell, and soulless Sam was defo in heaven (having doubts about the timeline here). Also that chickalicks ghost on the side of the road, all she needed was a nudge in the feathers direction, which means you can change your mind later. Unless of course you are that Constance chick (what a bitch) who was given a nudge in the other direction and you don’t have a choice… I’m confused.

    [quote]Where did John Winchester go at the end of season 2[/quote]
    Hell I am presuming, didn’t he get a ride on some demon to help kill yellow eyes. After that I am hoping he was given an upward nudge.

    [quote]Is heaven really a final resting place for people? It seems more like a half-way house run by angels for their own purposes.[/quote]
    Heaven actually seems worse than hell. At least Lucifer is honest! and as I always say ‘better the devil you know eh’. Eilf I don’t think there is a final anything when it comes to resting for this show. With Naomi concocting what what, I swear I think that heaven is just a bunch of layers stretching all the way down to hell.

    Reply

    1. [quote]
       [quote]Where did John Winchester go at the end of season 2[/quote]
       Hell I am presuming, didn’t he get a ride on some demon to help kill yellow eyes. After that I am hoping he was given an upward nudge.
       [quote].[/quote]
       No he went to hell at the beginning of Season 2, he got out of the hellgate at the end of season 2 and then went…where? Ash didn’t locate him in heaven but it doesn’t mean he wasn’t there.

       The heaven / hell / purgatory rules are not logical if you look at them closely so that is why I am thinking they are just other states of being instead of the final or only states of being.

       Not sure how the formatting of my answer will come out – apologies if I mess up the quotes

       Reply

41. I just read every word on this page or whatever it is called. Someone could help me out with that! And you all are so great. No matter what your viewpoint, you are so intelligent and articulate. I respect you all so much!

    One missing point, though. 😐 It seems as though much of the fandom had been complaining that they were tired of S&D always being FBI agents lately. And we just had an episode where they were ranch hands! And [i]I[/i] can’t find a mention of it.

    Team Winchester for me! *you can tell by my name*

    Reply

    1. I loved Sam being the research assistant in Everyone Hates Hitler. Now that was a different cover story too.

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42. Loved the episode.Four episodes in a row, I am enjoying this.Both the dialogues where Dean and Sam tell their POVs are brilliant and very much needed.I am glad that Sam is doing the trials ( first half of the tablet) as I like his attitude better.Want Dean to also see the light at the end of the tunnel (desperately). It is sad to see him losing hope.Overall an enjoyable episode.

    Reply

43. AnonymousN, just wanted to say hi. Don’t see you around much, got a little worried. 🙂

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    1. Hi Leah,I was at home.We don’t have internet there so I could not watch the episode or participate in many discussions.

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44. Wasn’t there a whole conversation between Bobby, Dean and Sam about seeing weird stuff the closer Dean got to death, “piercing the veil”? I think Sam is aware.

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45. what?

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