TV Guide Robert Singer Interview – MAJOR Supernatural Season 8 Spoilers
I was able today to get hold of an advanced copy to the Comic-Con Special Edition of TV Guide. ย My copy has the gorgeous Winchester Brothers on both the front and back cover, Dean in front in the front cover and Sam in front on the back. ย The magazine features some big sections for “The Big Bang Theory,” “Fringe,” “The Vampire Diaries,” “Person of Interest,” “Nikita,” “Children’s Hospital,” and of course “Supernatural,” as well as previews for new shows “666 Park Avenue,” “Arrow,” “Revolution,” “Cult,” “The Following,” and plenty of DC animation. ย
The “Supernatural” section is 8 pages long. ย It features the following:
– “Blood Brothers” – an interview with Jared and Jensen by Ileane Rudolph (no spoilers)
– “The Many Faces of Evil” – a look at the “Supernatural villains by Ileane Rudolph
– “Blood/Alcohol Content” – a breakdown of shooting the swordfight scene with the Shojo in “Party on Garth” by John Hogan
– “The Devil Is In The Details” – a “Supernatural” trivia quiz by Alice Jester (gee, I wonder who that could be???)
– “Burning Questions” – a season 8 preview interview with executive producer Robert Singer by Ileane Rudolph
All of these are a blast to read, but this is the Spoiler page. ย Only one coughs up what you’re looking for. ย Spoilers! ย I’ll share the interview in full on Wednesday when Comic Con starts, but here’s the highlights of the Robert Singer interview in which he shares some very spoilery details. ย Total, full credit for these spoilers and exclusive rights goes to Ileane Rudolph and TV Guide. ย Anything is quotes is from Robert Singer.ย
ย
– ย Will season 8 hinge on Sam trying to save Dean from Purgartory? ย “No,” Singer answers. ย An amount of time passes before Dean finds his way back from Purgatory (not specified how long). ย They’re planning on doing various flashbacks through the season showing what happened and what Sam did in that time while Dean was away.ย
– ย Why use flashbacks? ย Because fans usually hate it when the brothers are separated, so that’s why they’re being reunited quickly.ย
– ย What about Castiel? ย They’re still framing that out, but Cas will be back a number of times.ย
– ย Will Kevin the Prophet be back? ย “Kevin is an integral part of the year.”ย
– ย What does Crowley want with Kevin? ย The King of Hell needs someone to read the word of God. ย “Every year we start with a theme — this is our “Raiders of The Lost Ark” year. ย This season-long story will be a quest. ย It’s about Kevin and the tablets and the Word of God.”
– They would like guest characters like Sheriff Mills, Charlie and Garth back, but nothing is concrete yet. ย “And there’s one new character that we’re talking about. ย It’s a monster that Dean meets in Purgatory.”ย
– ย Who will be the big bad this season? ย It’s another angels and demons year. ย “It’s not apocalyptic but about who can gain control and keep demons in Hell or angels in Heaven.”
– I know a lot of you have been waiting for this answer. ย I’ll share the whole thing: ย
Former producer Jeremy Carver, who exec produced the U.S verison of Being Human, is returning to Supernatural as your new co-showrunner. ย Will fans notice anything different? ย
“No. ย Jeremy gave us a couple of years on the show, so I do think this season will be a little less earnest and a little more the kind of stuff we did in Seasons 2 and 3, before the weight of all the mythology got us.” ย
Okay, start speculating! ย I’m 100% certain more details will be surfacing in the next week, especially next Sunday (July 15th) when “Supernatural” has it panel at Comic-Con, but here’s your start.ย
Alice Jester is the founder, editor-in-chief, head writer, programmer, web designer, site administrator, marketer, and moderator for The Winchester Family Business.ย She is a 30 year IT applications and database expert with a penchant for creative and freelance writing in her spare (ha!!) time.ย Thatโs on top of being a wife, mother of two active kids, and four loving (aka needy) pets.
I’ll have to see how it plays out. Right now, I’m less excited than you are. I’m tired of the angels. I’ll have to see what these flashbacks are like, but I’m expecting more of Sam isn’t working hard enough to get Dean out while Dean re-bonds with Castiel which is the opposite of what I want. And Sam is yet again completely unscathed by any trauma. And Heaven Forbid that Sam EVER save Dean from Purgatory or anything really.
I hope it’s better than I’m thinking from this.
Sadly I can only concur.
I was hoping against hope that at least this time the writers had enough sense to let Sam save Dean, but it doesn’t look like it – again – and I see a lot of Sam-hate coming right at the beginning of Season 8 already.
Also we’re somewhat back to the angels. They can’t seem to find anything else that does not involve heaven or hell. I guess that’s because they don’t know how else to involve Cas (one more reason why I wish they let go of this character).
They want the bring back all the other side-characters from S7 but nothing is concrete yet. Shows again that they want to force involve certain characters because of their poluparity and not because they have a certain story for them which makes me fear that they will build the story around a side-character just to fit him/her in. It didn’t work too well in S7. The result of this was that we had more story going on around a side-character as actually for Sam/Dean.
I know I asked for the spoilers, but now I wish I’d lived in ignorant bliss for a a little longer, cuz unfortunately none of the spoiler’s above made me excited about S8
I’m with you. Sam needs to rescue Dean. But I don’t think there s anything here that implies he doesn’t, or does for that matter. I’ll be disappointed if we don’t see a Sam rescue, but no reason for pessimism yet IMO.
[quote]I’m with you. Sam needs to rescue Dean. But I don’t think there s anything here that implies he doesn’t, or does for that matter. I’ll be disappointed if we don’t see a Sam rescue, but no reason for pessimism yet IMO.[/quote]
To me this [quote]Will season 8 hinge on Sam trying to save Dean from Purgartory? “No,” Singer answers. An amount of time passes before Dean finds his way back from Purgatory (not specified how long). They’re planning on doing various flashbacks through the season showing what happened and what Sam did in that time while Dean was away. [/quote]
Especially [quote]Dean finds his way back from Purgatory [/quote]
Coupled with
[quote]They’re planning on doing various flashbacks through the season showing what happened and what Sam did in that time while Dean was away. [/quote]
Reeks of brave Dean battles his way out of Purgatory while Sam (from previous spoilers) cavorts with a wary, strong, sarcastic, brave female Doctor and twiddles his thumbs. I’ve already lived through Sam doesn’t love Dean and didn’t do anything to rescue him once, in season four. I won’t sit through that again. I decided my line in the sand is Sam has to rescue or play the major part in rescuing Dean. Dean deserves to help save himself, but Sam has to be the primary mover. Castiel need not apply. These spoilers say season four all over again with a traumatized Dean and a mysterious Sam who may be going dark for the 4,362 time. Cas will be who knows what, but what with Purgatory flashbacks and Sam getting a girlfriend, I now expect Dean to rise from Purgatory declaring that Castiel became his BFF in Purgatory, saving him time and again and Sam is no longer his brother.
I hope I’m wrong, but really, I’m half way out the door already. I’m going to watch. I’m going to see what comes out of Comic Con then I will try to go cold turkey on spoilers, because right now, it is looking like Sam fails to come to the rescue once again. If I’m wrong, great. If not, I will either revise how I watch this show or bail. I didn’t blame the Cas fans who bailed when his role was reduced. You watch what makes you happy. Sam as a failure/going dark/putting sex before Dean AGAIN will not make me happy.
Sam did everything he knew to do to rescue Dean from hell in season 4. He did not sit and twiddle his thumbs. He has also grown a lot, the past three seasons, learned a lot, encountered a multitude of supernatural creatures and people who could maybe help him recover Dean and Cas. I am positive he’s going to figure out where they are, and the means to save them. He’s so smart, and one of the best hunters in history.
Also, Dean would never disown Sam, for crying out loud, and especially not (as you seem to imply) because Cas is his new bff. (Cas is his *old* bff, in the first place, like Bobby said. Who knows what they are now, since they’re struggling to rebuild the trust they shared until Cas worked with Crowley and went nova.)
It’s totally up to you whether you want to stop watching, but I would encourage you to trust the writers and Jeremy C. They’re doing their best to make Supernatural a good story. Let’s see what they give us, ey?
It was never shown and it was highly implied that he didn’t. Sam claimed to have tried to pick the lock to the Devils Gate (off screen). We were shown ONE, ONE,ONE attempt by Sam to trade his soul. We then got Sam boinking Ruby and seeking revenge. One sentence from Ruby saying that if Sam defeated Lilith would have change the view on Sam, but no, they decided on revenge. When Dean came back one sentence by Ruby and a second sentence by Castiel saying that Lilith still owned Dean’s soul and if Lilith lived, Dean would eventually return to Hell would have made Sam somewhat more sympathetic. Instead they went with power hungry Sam, failure at saving Dean and having sex with a demon, listening to music he liked and going to movies. There was absolutely NO evidence that Sam did “everything he could to free Dean from Hell” anymore than there was on screen evidence that Dean tried to find a way out of the cage for Sam. The difference is that we did see Dean die in order to meet Death and free Sam’s soul from the Cage. Sam, did bupkis to save Dean. If he is not responsible at least in part with NO other supernatural being taking lead (he can work with Death, he can pressure Crowley, he can find Tessa) but Sam has to be the lead in getting Dean back or I really am done.
Seven season of Sam being wrong no matter what he does is plenty. He doesn’t kill John and is wrong. He doesn’t give into Azazel’s desires and is wrong. He doesn’t save Dean from the Deal or from Hell. He releases Lucifer. He dives into the Cage and then he come back soulless and does horrible things. He gets his soul back and is not allowed to make amends for fear of breaking his wall. He faces the torment of the Cage to save Dean and fails because Cas is too strong. He then sails through life without a care in the world while constantly hallucinating Lucifer, and then his insanity gets transferred to Castiel so that a real story about insanity can be told with an important character. Finally he loses Dean to Purgatory and takes up with the brave, wary, sarcastic strong Mary Sue, I mean Dr. Amelia, quite possibly while Dean is still in Purgatory. Where is there ANY goodness in Sam? Where does he ever make the right choice, or save anyone or anything? Stopping the Apocalypse was nice, but his actions while soulless were so bad that Lucifer looked good. I am done with the Sam failures and the Sam bashing. And all the spoilers indicate is more Sam is a failure storyline.
No, no seriously, don’t be so discouraged! These past few seasons have taught me to love Sam, because he is so good in his heart! All of his motivations the past few seasons, have been good. His intentions, if not the results, are what counts! That’s the message of the show! All of the characters make mistakes, but that doesn’t make them evil or irredeemable! I firmly believe Sam did everything in his power, and will continue to do everything that he possibly can, to get Dean back to Earth, safe and happy as possible. That’s what family does. My little sister would stop at nothing, neither will Sam. I would never rest if my younger sister (I love her so much) was in hell. Trust me, even if Sam made mistakes, there are few people who are as big a hero as Sam Winchester, and that comes across *really well* in the narrative. It will be even better, next season (fingers crossed)!
I love this post SO MUCH!! Almost as much as I love Sam. ๐ I completely agree with you –
[quote]No, no seriously, don’t be so discouraged! These past few seasons have taught me to love Sam, because he is so good in his heart! All of his motivations the past few seasons, have been good. His intentions, if not the results, are what counts! That’s the message of the show! All of the characters make mistakes, but that doesn’t make them evil or irredeemable! I firmly believe Sam did everything in his power, and will continue to do everything that he possibly can, to get Dean back to Earth, safe and happy as possible. That’s what family does. My little sister would stop at nothing, neither will Sam. I would never rest if my younger sister (I love her so much) was in hell. Trust me, even if Sam made mistakes, there are few people who are as big a hero as Sam Winchester, and that comes across *really well* in the narrative. It will be even better, next season (fingers crossed)![/quote]
Very well said, you’re right about Sam he only ever wanted to do good and right things. But as the saying goes the road to hell is paved with good intentions, Sam made mistakes just like Dean has, they aren’t perfect and DON”T always know what they are doing despite what some people on here think
I never said he was perfect. A perfect hero would be utterly dull. The flaws in our heroes make them beautiful and interesting. Sammy has a lot of flaws. But not trying his best to save Dean from Hell isn’t one of them. ๐
Percy, I can relate to your disappointment here in that yes, I feel also that it should be SAM who saves Dean! I don’t get these writers; it’s been shown time and time again that Supernatural is not driven by it’s ratings, but by it’s huge cult-following fanbase, which is like no other I’ve seen. And they surely MUST know that we fans want SAM to be the one who rescues Dean. So why are they not giving us that? It’s infuriating.
I will disagree however, that Sam has been bashed alot. To me, Sam has always been both implied and shown , to be the one who’s important, the one who’s stronger, better in every way. That fact that he’s made mistakes doesn’t take away from that. They’ve both made big mistakes. I feel it’s Dean who has been said to be weaker, rusty, not a important as Sam, not as loved by his family, although John’s season 2 E1 sacrifice nullified that. I love both Sam and Dean.
At least you can be happy that Sam get’s a recurring love interest this season 8, which I’m happy for. Dean usually only gets one night stands, save for Lisa.
Recurring love interests suck! I certainly don’t want that crap for Sam. Instead of giving Sam a GF and a relationship that is bound to crash and burn, they should have given Sam some new hunter friends/allies! They should be expanding the hunting world since they’ve taken so much from it already (i.e., Bobby, Rufus, the Campbells, Ellen, Frank, Jo).
And when Percy mentioned bashing, she’s referring to the fans. I think it will be a big mistake and will do further damage to Sam if he’s shown to be hooking up w/some woman while Dean suffers in Purgatory. It will look as if Sam doesn’t care about Dean. EDGs already accuse Sam of not loving Dean as much as Dean loves Sam. I’d think Sam would be entirely focused on saving Dean like he was in Mystery Spot rather than hooking up w/someone. Sam will be blasted on the boards if this happens! I will have to stay away when this airs.
That is what I meant by bashing. I hated seeing the way parts of fandom hated Sam starting season four and many have still not forgiven him. I just don’t want that again.
I hear you!
Admittedly, I was very disappointed w/Sam’s actions in Season 4, but I never started hating him. As you said, some in the fandom have hated him ever since. I don’t see that changing no matter what Sam does.
[quote]
And when Percy mentioned bashing, she’s referring to the fans. I think it will be a big mistake and will do further damage to Sam if he’s shown to be hooking up w/some woman while Dean suffers in Purgatory. It will look as if Sam doesn’t care about Dean. EDGs already accuse Sam of not loving Dean as much as Dean loves Sam. I’d think Sam would be entirely focused on saving Dean like he was in Mystery Spot rather than hooking up w/someone. Sam will be blasted on the boards if this happens! I will have to stay away when this airs.[/quote]
You know what, my favorite is Time and Time again when we are shown Sam working his ass off, with the help of Sheriff Mills, to find the monster that took Dean. Then we are being shown the teamwork that these two hunters do. Dean sending message and Sam chasing the witness and putting down the spell. They manage it in low scale and it works, the fans love it. Why not Purgatory? I just want Sam, at least succeed in doing something, in his effort to save Dean. Just write that pleaseeeee!!!!
[quote]It was never shown and it was highly implied that he didn’t. Sam claimed to have tried to pick the lock to the Devils Gate (off screen). We were shown ONE, ONE,ONE attempt by Sam to trade his soul. We then got Sam boinking Ruby and seeking revenge. One sentence from Ruby saying that if Sam defeated Lilith would have change the view on Sam, but no, they decided on revenge. When Dean came back one sentence by Ruby and a second sentence by Castiel saying that Lilith still owned Dean’s soul and if Lilith lived, Dean would eventually return to Hell would have made Sam somewhat more sympathetic. Instead they went with power hungry Sam, failure at saving Dean and having sex with a demon, listening to music he liked and going to movies. There was absolutely NO evidence that Sam did “everything he could to free Dean from Hell” anymore than there was on screen evidence that Dean tried to find a way out of the cage for Sam. The difference is that we did see Dean die in order to meet Death and free Sam’s soul from the Cage. Sam, did bupkis to save Dean. If he is not responsible at least in part with NO other supernatural being taking lead (he can work with Death, he can pressure Crowley, he can find Tessa) but Sam has to be the lead in getting Dean back or I really am done.
Seven season of Sam being wrong no matter what he does is plenty. He doesn’t kill John and is wrong. He doesn’t give into Azazel’s desires and is wrong. He doesn’t save Dean from the Deal or from Hell. He releases Lucifer. He dives into the Cage and then he come back soulless and does horrible things. He gets his soul back and is not allowed to make amends for fear of breaking his wall. He faces the torment of the Cage to save Dean and fails because Cas is too strong. He then sails through life without a care in the world while constantly hallucinating Lucifer, and then his insanity gets transferred to Castiel so that a real story about insanity can be told with an important character. Finally he loses Dean to Purgatory and takes up with the brave, wary, sarcastic strong Mary Sue, I mean Dr. Amelia, quite possibly while Dean is still in Purgatory. Where is there ANY goodness in Sam? Where does he ever make the right choice, or save anyone or anything? Stopping the Apocalypse was nice, but his actions while soulless were so bad that Lucifer looked good. I am done with the Sam failures and the Sam bashing. And all the spoilers indicate is more Sam is a failure storyline.[/quote]
I agree… This is the thing in the plot that disturbs me the most. I love both Winchesters but I wish they write Sam succeeds in saving Dean. Or at least putting a ground light or a beacon or something that SIGNIFICANT and Very Important as a mean for Dean to fight to get topside. What I want is the teamwork like in “Time and Time and Time again”.
[quote]
Reeks of brave Dean battles his way out of Purgatory while Sam (from previous spoilers) cavorts with a wary, strong, sarcastic, brave female Doctor and twiddles his thumbs.[/quote]
I don’t understand what’s so wrong with “brave Dean” battling his way out of Purgatory? In fact, I think Dean needs to battle his way out… he needs to gain some confidence in himself again. Dean needs to prove to himself that he can battle his way out. After being beaten down emotionally with his despair and guilt and depression for the past couple of seasons, I think Dean deserves a storyline where he can control his own destiny and one that focuses on Dean’s strengths and confidence in his own abilities.
So I totally disagree that if the show allows Dean to battle his way out on his own, that this is a bad thing. I also don’t think that it will reflect poorly on Sam. Just as I never thought the fact that Dean did not save Sam from the Cage should reflect poorly on Dean.
Oh and by the way, Dean was never shown in any flashbacks trying to save Sam from the Cage, although from spoilers on the episode Jensen is directing, it seems that we will see flashbacks to the time Dean was still in Purgatory, and I would imagine the flashbacks will include Sam trying to save Dean.
As for Castiel, I get the impression that he isn’t with Dean in Purgatory. I think he may have been pulled out, maybe by Crowley? Anyway, Sam will always be [i]the most[/i] important person in Dean’s life, regardless of whether he is able to save him from Purgatory or not.
Like Percysowner and airbat, I’m not excited about any of these spoilers. More of the angel story, more of the stupid side characters, more of the Winchesters used as plot tools for stories they haven’t thought up yet…more of the same again. Even if the plotting is good, I can’t see much characterization behind these spoilers for either brother. In fact, the interview sounds like Sam and Dean will side characters or plot tools for stories that haven’t been developed yet.
I hope it works out better than it sounds, but I wished I had lived in ignorance, too.
“Because the fans usually hate when the brothers are separated”? Ugh, not ALL fans. It actually makes a better (and different) story line for them to be separated for more than ONE episode, for once. I love the boys to death and of course I want to see them together again but why so soon? Why rush it? What I really want to see is Dean and Cas fighting monsters in purgatory. TOGETHER. A lot! of people do. And not *just* in flashbacks. There is so much depth here but instead they’re going to quickly reunite the brothers. Again. Sigh.
As soon as the season finale finished I became so beyond excited for the 8th season because I had this theory in my head that we would see Dean and Cas hunting things and saving each other and working things out while Sam is back on earth going insane without Dean at his side, trying to bring him back. But now? All that excitement is gone. ๐ This is why I need to stay away from spoilers…
Supernatural has never truly disappointed me and I’m afraid for the very first time it will. I hope I eat my words when the 8th season airs.
It’s getting tiring of seeing comments that this show is about Sam and Dean alone. NO. It’s about Sam, Dean AND Cas. They brought this character in the show and made us care about him just as much as we care about the brothers. He IS family, like it or not. (Btw there are two Amy’s here so I’m going to start signing my name as Amy V)
This was the only comment that made me go…’Whaaat?’ because really? The show is about Sam, Dean AND CAS? You’re so funny. They brought him into the show, yes, but he is not a fundamental character. Just like Bobby, Crowley, Jo, Lisa…and everyone else. If Castiel is part of the Sam & Dean show then Bobby didn’t deserve to be killed off. Neither did John all those seasons ago. Or Jo and Ellen and Ash. So, please, just stop. All these characters do is just add flavoring to the show…and sometimes they even fail to do that.
when the show ends, it’ll still be the story of sam and dean. that’s how supernatural started, that’s how it’ll end.
I guess it’s all subjective. I’m super excited, because I know Sam is going to pull some awesome and epic effort to rescue Dean and Cas from Purgatory, and I expect that Cas and Dean will get to rebuild some of their broken trust! I anticipate both things happening, and am super glad to have Jeremy Carver running the show, because I trust him to handle the stories and characters well. ๐
Singer said there was going to be little change in the show. I know Singer is very low-key and that his interviews come off like that but, Dear Lord, after S6 and S7, I [b][i]most definitely wanted[/i][/b] to see change.
The biggest change that I wanted to see is that Sam and Dean are the leads in the show. I could care less about Kevin Tran, and I don’t want to see the Kevin Tran Show where HE is an integral part of the mytharc. I had quite enough of the support characters taking over the show, and the brothers dragging the stereotypical Asian teenager around while on their quest doesn’t do a thing for me.
I could care less about Jodie Mills, a sheriff in South Dakota, running all over the country to help the brothers just as an excuse to have her on the show again.
I definitely never wanted to see Garth, the village idiot, be called on to help the supposedly super hunters, Sam and Dean.
I hope there was a terrible accident with that bus Charlie Day was on and she quirky danced her way to oblivion. The only part of that episode that was good was Dean teaching the 30-year old gay girl to flirt with a guy, because we all know that gay women don’t know how to flirt.
While all of the actors for these characters were good and I definitely know the value of support characters in a show, I didn’t find these characters very compelling. (Except for Jodie Mills who, I believe, served a purpose when initially brought in, but S7’s episode was just an excuse to use her again.)
I was initially super excited that Jeremy was brought in and assumed that it was because TPTB recognized that change was most definitely needed, so I’m hoping that Singer is just being his usual low-key little self and we do see a lot of change. Continuing with old home week episodes, especially when they are looking for stories to shoehorn these support character in, does not instill any confidence in the writers, who I thought did a lot of phoning in last season and gave every indication that they had lost interest in the Winchesters and their story.
Couldn’t* care less
Man, that’s too bad. I’m looking forward to the minor characters that I love reappearing. I trust that they’ll contribute to and further the plot, while maintaining a sense of “larger-world” happenings with their presence. I love the universe that Supernatural has built, but it’s needs a population beyond the brothers and Cas. Charlie was one of my favorite characters (possibly ever) on Supernatural. I laughed aloud at Garth’s good-hearted shenanigans. My affection for Jody Mills only grows with time. Having a supporting cast of characters does [i]not[/i] indicate that the writers are bored with the Winchesters. It’s one of the principle ways of keeping the Winchesters from [i]being boring[/i] however.
Beth, I concur with your thoughts here. I love both the brother interaction and their interaction with other characters. I believe it makes no sense to complain about something that hasn’t even happened yet – critiquing is what happens AFTER the show airs. While every season has had areas I could wish had been done differently or better, overall I have loved all the seasons,for the most part I trust the writers and I look forward with great enthusiasm to Season 8.
[quote]Singer said there was going to be little change in the show. I know Singer is very low-key and that his interviews come off like that but, Dear Lord, after S6 and S7, I [b][i]most definitely wanted[/i][/b] to see change.
The biggest change that I wanted to see is that Sam and Dean are the leads in the show. I could care less about Kevin Tran, and I don’t want to see the Kevin Tran Show where HE is an integral part of the mytharc. I had quite enough of the support characters taking over the show, and the brothers dragging the stereotypical Asian teenager around while on their quest doesn’t do a thing for me.
I could care less about Jodie Mills, a sheriff in South Dakota, running all over the country to help the brothers just as an excuse to have her on the show again.
I definitely never wanted to see Garth, the village idiot, be called on to help the supposedly super hunters, Sam and Dean.
I hope there was a terrible accident with that bus Charlie Day was on and she quirky danced her way to oblivion. The only part of that episode that was good was Dean teaching the 30-year old gay girl to flirt with a guy, because we all know that gay women don’t know how to flirt.
While all of the actors for these characters were good and I definitely know the value of support characters in a show, I didn’t find these characters very compelling. (Except for Jodie Mills who, I believe, served a purpose when initially brought in, but S7’s episode was just an excuse to use her again.)
I was initially super excited that Jeremy was brought in and assumed that it was because TPTB recognized that change was most definitely needed, so I’m hoping that Singer is just being his usual low-key little self and we do see a lot of change. Continuing with old home week episodes, especially when they are looking for stories to shoehorn these support character in, does not instill any confidence in the writers, who I thought did a lot of phoning in last season and gave every indication that they had lost interest in the Winchesters and their story.[/quote]
[quote]Singer said there was going to be little change in the show. I know Singer is very low-key and that his interviews come off like that but, Dear Lord, after S6 and S7, I [b][i]most definitely wanted[/i][/b] to see change.
The biggest change that I wanted to see is that Sam and Dean are the leads in the show. I could care less about Kevin Tran, and I don’t want to see the Kevin Tran Show where HE is an integral part of the mytharc. I had quite enough of the support characters taking over the show, and the brothers dragging the stereotypical Asian teenager around while on their quest doesn’t do a thing for me.
I could care less about Jodie Mills, a sheriff in South Dakota, running all over the country to help the brothers just as an excuse to have her on the show again.
I definitely never wanted to see Garth, the village idiot, be called on to help the supposedly super hunters, Sam and Dean.
I hope there was a terrible accident with that bus Charlie Day was on and she quirky danced her way to oblivion. The only part of that episode that was good was Dean teaching the 30-year old gay girl to flirt with a guy, because we all know that gay women don’t know how to flirt.
While all of the actors for these characters were good and I definitely know the value of support characters in a show, I didn’t find these characters very compelling. (Except for Jodie Mills who, I believe, served a purpose when initially brought in, but S7’s episode was just an excuse to use her again.)
I was initially super excited that Jeremy was brought in and assumed that it was because TPTB recognized that change was most definitely needed, so I’m hoping that Singer is just being his usual low-key little self and we do see a lot of change. Continuing with old home week episodes, especially when they are looking for stories to shoehorn these support character in, does not instill any confidence in the writers, who I thought did a lot of phoning in last season and gave every indication that they had lost interest in the Winchesters and their story.[/quote]
That’s just it though. He said it will change little but be more like seasons 2-3. For it to be like those seasons it would HAVE to change dramatically.
What is it with you people being annoyed by Dean having his own storyline or character development?! Seriously, it’s like even the thought of it sends you guys into a horrible rage.
Kinda like whenever Sam gets anything to himself or any little bit of attention or one small episode to center around him annoys you guys? Really? Pot kettle, sugar.
I love angels vs. demons and I love Castiel, but the quick reunion of Sam and Dean takes all the suspense away. That’s the only thing I’m sad about.
Maybe Sam didn’t succeed in saving Dean but, it wasn’t from the lack of trying. When Dean went to hell, Sam tried EVERYTHING to save him. He even tried to switch places with Dean. Is this really a contest? I say, let’s stop comparing, shall we? If people look for reasons to pick apart this show (or any other show for that matter), they will find fault. It’s just facts. The growing number of fans of Supernatural is mind blowing & it is impossible for the writers to please them all so, sit back, relax, & enjoy the ride!
i just want my brotherly bond btw sam and dean back!! i’m glad they won’t be seperated for long.
I’m totally with you! I’m so glad they won’t be apart long. At last this Singer and Jeremy seem to understand, haha. I love season 2 and 3, so YES, please!
I’m sad that it doesn’t look like it’s Sam who will save Dean this time either, though. And a bit worried about this monster that Dean will meet. I don’t want another Alastair.
I love the Purgatory storyline, and I’m excited to see what the writers come up with! ๐ I’m glad that Castiel will be returning, and I look forward to the adventures Dean, Sam, and Cas will have, while searching for the Word. I hope they keep Cas around on a permanent basis, and I definitely hope to see more of Judy Mills and Garth!
I am down with whatever brings forward character development. Diggin’ Cas coming back, I love the dynamic.
Can’t say that I’m all that excited – more and more I worry that they’ll waste the opportunity they have to really explore a very interesting place (Purgatory). I’m glad about the angels and demons returning, though, and that they’re changing things up a bit with the ‘quest’ thing. But I keep worrying when they strictly mention Dean getting out of Purgatory! I know they’ve said Castiel “dissolved” or some such thing, maybe because Purgatory messed with him, but heck if I wasn’t really looking forward to him being down in the muck WITH Dean! :'(
Wow that sucks i was hoping the season would be basically set in purgatory with Cas and Dean fighting monsters together and sam trying to get them out while fighting by himself and trying to get by.
That would be a great set up for a TV show. But not this one. What you are describing is NOT Supernatural. I would hate it as would many fans. If Dean and Sam aren’t together we have no show.
[quote]That would be a great set up for a TV show. But not this one. What you are describing is NOT Supernatural. I would hate it as would many fans. If Dean and Sam aren’t together we have no show.[/quote]
I definitely wouldn’t hate it, and nor would many other fans. I’m more than happy to see Dean and Sam spend some time apart.
Well… [i]I[/i] would.
i would too..sorry, i watch spn for sam and dean and their interactions/relationship. no more seperation please. i wish the producers/writers would repair and show their bond!!
Me too, Shelley. ๐
It’s a scenario that’s inspired so much beautiful artwork and fiction already! At least we’ll always have that, even if the Purgatory storyline gets a bit curtailed. ๐
[quote]It’s a scenario that’s inspired so much beautiful artwork and fiction already! At least we’ll always have that, even if the Purgatory storyline gets a bit curtailed. :)[/quote]
Doesn’t look like cas is down there with Dean. It doesn’t say that he is, only that he appears in a few episodes. He did disappear at the end of the finale, didn’t Robert say Crowley had something to do with his disappeance? So, I think it’s Dean stuck there by him self facing the monsters alone
I hope not. But we’ll see, right? And my point was, even if it plays out differently than some of us had hoped, the Purgatory story has already caught fire in the minds of many fans, who used it to make beautiful pictures and fan fiction. I’m pretty happy with that. It’s made my summer more wonderful than it would have been, otherwise.
For anyone who’s interested, here’s a couple of the sites actively compiling fan works about Purgatory over the hiatus!
๐
[url]http://wanderingthroughpurgatory.tumblr.com/[/url]
[url]http://catboatventure.tumblr.com/[/url]
There are more, but these two are the ones I visit most regularly. ๐
Well that’s YOUR opinion, and I respect it.
But many fans, many, want to see Sam and Dean. It’s what SPN is all about after all, it defines the show.
They really had a chance to have Sam and Dean emotionally reconnect by having Sam save Dean. Now with all these spoilers we’ve heard I’m afraid it’s going to be another season of them sitting in the car together physically, but apart from each other in every other way. ๐
I actually feel sad just reading your comment Kris.
I prefer the opposite. Separated by time and space but still together in heart and soul and working in sync with only relating on instinct and a sense of togetherness that they’ve been developed since the pilot.
Totally fine with them spending time apart. Using flashbacks just pisses me off because the story doesn’t move forward. And to people saying ‘get rid of Cas’ I think you’re going to have to get use to the fact that the majority of the fandom would rather him and Dean actually develop a little, while fighting in Purgatory, and Sam can be topside with a girlfriend, trying and maybe even being successful, if so many people want him to save dean, in actually getting them out.
How exactly do you define “majority”?
Personally, I would hate it if the main story this season would have Dean and Cas in Purgatory and Sam separated from Dean. This would not be Supernatural for me. For me Supernatural is watching the boys fighting together. I don’t know how paraphrased this part “Why use flashbacks? Because fans usually hate it when the brothers are separated, so that’s why they’re being reunited quickly.” is, but it makes feel good, because the writers seem to have understood that fans hate it when the brothers are apart. I really suffered from the lack of the brotherly bond the last two seasons and I hope that Jeremy Carver will bring it back.
[quote]
Personally, I would hate it if the main story this season I don’t know how paraphrased this part “Why use flashbacks? Because fans usually hate it when the brothers are separated, so that’s why they’re being reunited quickly.” is, but it makes feel good, because the writers seem to have understood that fans hate it when the brothers are apart. I really suffered from the lack of the brotherly bond the last two seasons and I hope that Jeremy Carver will bring it back.[/quote]
But when they are ALWAYS together there is no character development. They have developed as far as they can together. Being separated for 2-3 episodes is not going to completely destroy their relationship.
I never saw a lack of brotherly bond in the show, because I can’t. Dean and Sam are never apart. I can’t think of a season where Dean and Sam have not been unhealthily obsessed with one another.
And does no one remember the phrase, “Absence makes the heart grow fonder.” In the first episode if Dean and Sam have the huge brotastic hug, WHO CARES? They were apart for viewers for what, 15 minutes? Wouldn’t a separation make their reuniting actually interesting and emotional?
When I say “lack of brotherly bond” I don’t mean them being apart. In season 7 they were together but disconnected. In season 6, dean and robo-Sam were together the whole time but there was no brotherly bond.
I’m not saying I want them together 24/7, but I don’t want them separated, doing different things (like when Sam quit hunting, or when Dean had to leave Sam hunt on his own to run to Lisa etc)
If the writers want to, they can make the characters develop without separating them. I find nothing unhealthy in their relationship and that’s the reason I love the show, because I love their relationship! ๐
P.S. From personal experience, I think that this phase “Absence makes the heart grow fonder” is one of the most stupid things a person has ever said… I really hate it…
Simply b/c they are physically together doesn’t mean there’s a bond.
Many feel there was no bond btw Sam and Dean for the first half of S6 b/c Sam was soulless and completely not himself. I loved SS but he wasn’t “Sam.” I felt the bond more in the second half of the season, but Sam, in my opinion, was pushed to the background in the 2nd half. Plus, there was the Wall in his head that couldn’t be disturbed.
For me, the brothers were fine in Season 6. I felt the bond then and not b/c they were physically together.
This season – aside from TWO episodes (HCW and Plucky’s), the boys have never, IMO, felt further apart from each other. This past season was ridiculously light on bonding moments/scenes. The boys felt more like strangers or co-workers than guys who would (and have) DIED for each other. They were together all this year, but weren’t close or bonded. They weren’t close, IMO, in Season 5 either. Season 4 started the separation.
I am more than ready to see the boys together and close like they were in some parts of Season 4 and the latter half of Season 6. This is the season where they should have been leaning on each other, etc., but the writers isolated them to their own plots. It was weird. Sam asked about Dean once, and Dean gave no concern to Sam or Sam’s issues after HCW. Very odd.
your dreaming kellynom-the majority of the fans want limited cas in the series-most fans are done with the angel/demon thing.
Disagreed. Please refer to SFB’s post from 12-07-08 18:48. There are many fans who love Cas and are not tired of the angels story line. It is practically impossible to get a real sense of who the majority is and what they want in a fandom such as this one. Maybe we should stop speaking for a nebulous ‘majority’ at all. Maybe we’d save ourselves the trouble of hashing it out. ๐
well said i love cas and i would prefer cas and deans purgatory storyline over sams love interest that crap just bores me and also flashbacks suck ass i agree with that too
Yeah, well the Cas and Dean crap bores me. I’d much rather see a Winchester getting real action than an angel who’s repeatedly betrayed the brothers tagging along like a lost little puppy in Purgatory.
Because Sam and Dean have never betrayed each other or lied to each other ever. Certainly not about Sam’s demon blood and what John told Dean, Dean’s demon deal, Ruby being a demon, Sam using his demon powers, Sam drinking demon blood, Sam beating up Dean so he can go with Ruby to kill Lillith, Dean killing Sam’s kitsune friend, Sam seeing Lucifer, Sam seeing Lucifer some more, and I am probably missing some. Yup not betrayals or lies there.
agreed i think sam and dean need to spend time apart i think it will do them both good to look after themselves for a change rather then each other and im so glad cas is coming back =D
I think Sam and Dean can develop their brotherly bond without even seeing each other. Remember the Time and Time again episode? I’m all for the brothers to get separated for one or two seasons but please show their working together through time and space, always in sync with each other despite the separation.
Perhaps I remember wrong that Misha said (or is it someone?) that Castiel would be the bridge of communication between the two. I could go with that. Although, I don’t really have too much respect for Castiel. He has his use. What I have in mind is few scenes of Dean fighting in Purgatory to find his way out WITH a beacon/something from Sam. And several scene of Sam making deals, hunting purgatory monster for a semblance of clue to send something for Dean.
Yes I agree that Dean has to fight his own way out and be the strong and badass Dean that we know and love come topside. But the most important I want them working together. I’m talking about teamwork. In Time and Time again although they are separated but we can feel their bond. We can feel Sam’s desperation to get Dean and Dean sending message to Sam. That’s beautiful in a low scale. I just want that shown in a bigger scale.
I was hoping for that too. The claustrophobic brother bond could have used some fresh air.
But nope, no Purgatory. ๐ More angels and demons instead, which… okay, I love them, so I shouldn’t complain. But flashbacks, ugh.
You’re joking, right…?
I’m excited for season 8 as a die hard fan of the show but i kinda hate how they let the fans have their way with the show. like i don’t want Sam and Dean to be reunited quickly, i want at least 8 episodes to go by before that happens. i know they have to do what the fans want to an extent but I’ve kinda been disappointed by the show in that sense lately. i still love it tho, and i want a musical episode…..just saying.
I agree. I wish they’d stop letting the fans dictate how how they tell the story. After two lack luster seasons Purgatory has been the best idea they’ve had since s5.
It would be great to allow Dean and Sam to grow as individuals for a while before reuniting. It’d be great to get to see Dean have his own storyline that doesn’t center around keeping Sam safe.
And it’d also be great to see Sam actually contact with people outside of Dean. Dean was always closer to side characters like Cas, Bobby, Ellen and Jo, so for this season to allow Sam to make friends would be a great change of pace.
Plus the pay off would be amazing, remember how wonderful it felt when the Impala came back? It’d be great to create suspense for when the boys finally meet again. Naturally this is all a pipe dream because of the whiners of fandom. :/
Well, let’s also not be ‘whiners of the fandom’. Maybe it’ll be better than we anticipate. All we can do is trust the writers. They (and Jeremy C.) seem to have a handle on what would be good for the show as well as entertaining for its fans. We still get flashbacks, which could be done so poignantly, and Castiel, and (potentially) returning side characters like Jody. I’m counting my blessings, at this point. ๐
Yes, this! All this big events and moments are dealt with so quickly. I know everyone hammers on about the show being about two brothers, but it still can be with them in different places! Many shows carry FULL casts and have characters in different places doing different things. Distance doesn’t make characters less bound, less together. It allows them to grow, it develops suspense, and it makes the culmination of the journey that much more important.
As long as it is well written. The key is in the writing and editing. Separate them please by all means but also please write “the distant makes the heart grows fonder” too. That theme has to be on the script and overflowing in dialogue and acting. It’s tricky but good writer knows how to do that. Let’s see how good the writer this season.
[quote]I agree. I wish they’d stop letting the fans dictate how how they tell the story. After two lack luster seasons Purgatory has been the best idea they’ve had since s5.
It would be great to allow Dean and Sam to grow as individuals for a while before reuniting. It’d be great to get to see Dean have his own storyline that doesn’t center around keeping Sam safe.
And it’d also be great to see Sam actually contact with people outside of Dean. Dean was always closer to side characters like Cas, Bobby, Ellen and Jo, so for this season to allow Sam to make friends would be a great change of pace.
Plus the pay off would be amazing, remember how wonderful it felt when the Impala came back? It’d be great to create suspense for when the boys finally meet again. Naturally this is all a pipe dream because of the whiners of fandom. :/[/quote]
What do you mean? That is exactly what a large portion of what the fandom wants. I don’t care that the show supposedly centres around the brother’s bond, they need to develop and change, that doesn’t mean they’re no longer brothers. Dean alone in purgatory is sad as fuck, and I thought Castiel would work well with the character development that could workout while in purgatory.
If the boys are reunited at the start of the season, and they quest around trying to findout how, all while having flashbacks, it’ll be boring and lame.
A few overly obsessed Dean fans or Dean/Cas fans don’t define a “large portion” of the fandom. Speak for yourself.
[quote]I agree. I wish they’d stop letting the fans dictate how how they tell the story. After two lack luster seasons Purgatory has been the best idea they’ve had since s5.
It would be great to allow Dean and Sam to grow as individuals for a while before reuniting. It’d be great to get to see Dean have his own storyline that doesn’t center around keeping Sam safe.
And it’d also be great to see Sam actually contact with people outside of Dean. Dean was always closer to side characters like Cas, Bobby, Ellen and Jo, so for this season to allow Sam to make friends would be a great change of pace.
Plus the pay off would be amazing, remember how wonderful it felt when the Impala came back? It’d be great to create suspense for when the boys finally meet again. Naturally this is all a pipe dream because of the whiners of fandom. :/[/quote]
I am confused by this comment. You note that you wish they would stop letting fans “dictate” what they do on the show. And yet you go on to detail your opinion of what the show runners should be doing to make the show better. Is that not a fan “dictating” what should be done on the show?
The issue is you don’t like the direction the show is taking and hey, I respect that opinion. But it doesn’t make me a “whiner” if I say I don’t like it when the boys spend episodes apart (i.e. when Dean sent Sam away/Sam quit hunting in season 5). We all watch the show for different reasons. We all have different opinions on what should happen and different ways we’d like to see the show go. Calling those with a different opinion a “whiner” just seems rude and breaks apart the fandom.
Maybe we’ll get lucky and they will do an excellent job in the flashbacks showing Dean in purgatory and how both boys worked together (while separated) to get him out. I’m hoping for equal time to shine for both boys. I’m really just looking forward to the show being back. Even 8 seasons in, its still my favorite show on tv.
Good post!
I, personally, had no desire to see Sam and Dean apart for half or an entire season. That’s not Supernatural, IMO. The show is about two brothers, traveling the back roads and battling evil. It’s not Dean/Cas’s Adventures in Purgatory, and it isn’t Sam’s love affair show.
I have no problem w/the boys being apart for an episode or two, but I did fear they would be separated for half or the entire season. That’s too much, IMO, and would be moving too far from the premise of the show.
[quote]Good post!
I, personally, had no desire to see Sam and Dean apart for half or an entire season. That’s not Supernatural, IMO. The show is about two brothers, traveling the back roads and battling evil. It’s not Dean/Cas’s Adventures in Purgatory, and it isn’t Sam’s love affair show.
I have no problem w/the boys being apart for an episode or two, but I did fear they would be separated for half or the entire season. That’s too much, IMO, and would be moving too far from the premise of the show.[/quote]
Heeee… Agree Agreee Agreee 100 times agree!!! Separated for an episode or two is fine but please put a good writer to write those episode. The one who understand the brotherly bonds of Sam and Dean. Who can write them beautifully despite the separation. So, when they finally reunited we could all shed tears.
THIS.
Just wondering… Were you, Grayson and some others mad at the whiners of the fandom when Castiel fans [i]demanded[/i] the writers/producers/Sera to bring him back or this comment only apply to the fans who prefer the brothers together?
[quote]Just wondering… Were you, Grayson and some others mad at the whiners of the fandom when Castiel fans [i]demanded[/i] the writers/producers/Sera to bring him back or this comment only apply to the fans who prefer the brothers together?[/quote]
Well you’re certainly whining! Whiners unite, I say. ๐
Me, whining? No., I’m happy with the show.
These Castiel fans, though? They aren’t. Look at what they”re planing:
http://destielcanoninmymind.tumblr.com/tagged/fandom-wank
And some are calling having the brother back together soon as a ‘fan service’? After all they did until Castiel was brought back because of them? C’mon now. That is, in the last, hypocritical.
Honestly, and I’m about to get real candid here and going to get A LOT of hate for this, but when I refer to ‘Whiners in fandom’ I’m referring to Sam!stans who claim they want the show to focus on the ‘the brothers’ but just want the brother’s reunited so they don’t have to worry about screen time being taken away from Sam, and Dean worrying constantly about Sam; since in their eyes that’s the only reason Dean exists in the show.
Y’know the same people who claim that s6&7 were all about Dean and his ’emotional storyline’ while they believe Sam just sat around or something. Like the whole Soulless!Sam half of season 6 was just imagined, or Soulless!Sam running with the Campbells didn’t happen, or had to deal with a wall that kept hell out of his brain.
You know what Dean did the last two seasons? Cry over a unrealistic relationship, react to everything happening to Sam, and drinking. Those aren’t driven interesting stories. Dean finally has a chance to have a REAL, honest to God, storyline but they’re just going to throw it away because separating him from Sam is some mortal sin or something. Dean’s not allowed to have stories because making sure Sam!stans are happy is more important.
What Sam!Stans fail to realize is that this has a lot of opportunities for Sam to grow as well, but we’ll never know because the Winchester’s aren’t allowed to be separate human beings.
I love the Winchester Duo as much as the next fan but season 7 showed how redundant having the two of them just roaming around in a car hunting has become. Having Sam branch out and do some networking with other hunters/people and Dean fighting in purgatory is far more interesting to me than the new writers (not Jeremy Carver but the writers who attempted writing s6&7) attempt at writing Sam&Dean’s relationship.
[quote]I’m referring to Sam!stans who claim they want the show to focus on the ‘the brothers’ but just want the brother’s reunited so they don’t have to worry about screen time being taken away from Sam, and Dean worrying constantly about Sam; since in their eyes that’s the only reason Dean exists in the show. [/quote]
Just like some Dean (or Dean/Cas) fans who claim that they want the brothers apart, so they can both have character growth when what they actually want is Sam out of the main storyline (hoping that Purgatory would be the main storyline) so they can at last enjoy the Dean & Cas show. It goes both ways ๐
Whereas the reality of the situation, is that many many people from all sides are just concerned for the show’s well-being. I am a fan of Dean, and Dean/Cas, and Castiel, and Sam, and Team Free Will, and the Brothers, and goodness but wouldn’t I have loved some Purgatory story! It posited cool monsters, plenty of action, rebuilding friendships, epic-hunter Sam, and all sort of marvelous things. BUT they can still deliver these things through flash-back format. It can be done. It’s useless being this disappointed over a few spoilers, that tell us almost nothing. We won’t know how it goes until it airs.
Everybody was yelling at them, too. There was even an anti-bring-him back page put up on tumblr, almost immediately, if I remember right… (ah fandom wank, ain’t it grand)
not sure how they will do the flashbacks.. I just hope it will make sense and we will get to see lots of purgatory, since that’s basically what is making me excited for season 8.
oh and I’m glad the angels and demons are back! season 4 and 5 were the best! and crossing my fingers that Misha will come back as a series regular!!
I think all this sounds very exciting! I never go into a season with pre-conceived ideas of what to expect, especially negative ones. I’m a great believer in letting the team behind the show tell the story they want to tell and I will come along for the ride.
Weirdly, I would be cool if the brothers were separated for a short period of time, but I get why they won’t be doing that. It is true we do prefer them together and it is true that the story is more engaging when they are side by side, that’s what it’s all about after all. The chemistry between the brothers is compelling and it would be difficult to capture that with them being apart for any length of time. I’m predicting we won’t see them apart at all. Which saddens me, because I had my heart set on a bearded Dean….no razors in Purgatory! ๐
For me, there has to be Angels in there on some level because we know they exist now, we know they are asses and to ignore them at this stage of the game would be like ignoring demons. They are there, they will pop their nasty heads up from time to time.
I quite enjoy the old flashback. I think in the past, Supernatural has done them very well, so I look forward to seeing how this is handled. In the brothers telling their stories through flashback it allows the other brother to experience that memory too, which I think adds to the drama and adds resonance and understanding to their relationship.
I think it’s great that Carver has another show and new characters under his belt now. This will only help to expand his repertoire and make him a better writer and seeing as he was already pretty damn awesome, it’s going to fab to have him back on board. But I agree that we probably won’t notice much of a difference, unless it’s in a slightly lighter tone. This show is 8 seasons in, it’s established, I’m sure it works like a well oiled machine.
I’m super excited about this new monster from Purgatory. I love new monsters!
I can’t wait to see what they have planned and how it all plays out.
As usual, I’m champing at the bit for the new season to get underway!
Agreed!
If they don’t show us at least 3 episodes of purgatory I will be so disappointed. Keeping the brothers apart for 2 or 3 episodes won’t kill anyone, will it? geez I hate the idea that the writers might throw away this change of making something different and amazing just because SOME fans want to see the brothers together 24/7.
It’s not just SOME fans, Carly, it’s tens of thousands of fans. And some of them get pretty hostile if they don’t get their way! Don’t worry though…The show is in good hands. Besides, I don’t care what Sam & Dean are doing (together or apart), wearing, or saying cuz, nothing will stop ME from watching! Just saying…;)
Trust me, the writers won’t be doing anything just for ‘some’ fans. They want to please the audience, sure, but I think in the end they are just trying to make the best story possible. ๐ We have Ben Edlund and Jeremy Carver on the show. I think this next season will be spectacular.
Thanks, Alice.
I’m surprised the Purgatory storyline sounds like it won’t be a major theme. I was really expecting this season to be tied to a monster mytharc of some sort. It’d be sad if Purgatory turns out to be some sort of throwaway storyline that just gets dumped a few episodes in.
Alice, I’m just curious- do the rest of the spoilers have more about the brothers? Or do you get the sense we’re in for a repeat of last season, where the storyline revolves around other characters like Kevin, Crowley, and assorted guest stars?
i do hope the brothers are more connected this year…and i def. want more bro moments…they’ve been lacking the last couple of seasons, imo…
I don’t have any other spoilers now. I paraphrased a lot of the spoilers, so what’s missing is the full questions and Singer’s full answers. However, I will be at Comic-Con next week and I will be in the Supernatural press room, so I’ll be getting more spoilers there.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. More is coming and I’ll be sure to share it as soon as I hear it.
If you’re able to, could you please ask about the brothers? The spoilers said they’ll be reunited physically soon and I have no words to say how glad I am for this, but can you ask how they’ll be emotionally towards each other, their bond? (Sorry, Season 4 traumatized the hell out of me, lol)
Usually I get to speak with either Jared, Jensen, or both and they talk about what’s going to happen with each of their characters. I’m also hoping to ask Jeremy Carver about the brotherly bond. Not sure if I’ll get a chance there but I’ll try!
You lucky, lucky girl! ๐
I hope you get the chance to ask about the brotherly bond. It’ll always be my favorite aspect of the show.
Thank you, Alice!
well can you ask about cas too? and if we will see some action on purgatory? even if it’s on flashbacks?
please do b/c imo, it’s been sorely missed. it’s the only reason i keep watching. and i’ve missed the bro moments too. thanks!
[quote]please do b/c imo, it’s been sorely missed. it’s the only reason i keep watching. and i’ve missed the bro moments too. thanks![/quote]
sorry alice, i’m referring to the brotherly bond!
me too…and s5, esp after they split at end of ep2…i don’t think i’ve ever recovered, lol…
wow lame :'(
angels and demons and the quest sound cool, but I’m not so much behind everything else. Looks like they’ll be wasting potential again and ugh seriously, I love my Winchester boys like nobody’s business but I love them on their own to and wish they could get some time to shine away from each other and get time to develop too before being reunited. idk maybe there’ll be big changes that the flashbacks fill in? idk apprehensive right now.
also do you know if cas’ status is recurring or regular?
Not sure, I’ll be sure to ask that question at Comic Con.
(Praying for regular, fingers crossed, oh please dear god.)
Seconding that prayer so hard. (Prayer circle for Misha being a regular in Season 8!)
i’m praying for 5 episodes and then he’s gone
Wait, hold up. Aren’t Castiel, Michael, and Lucifer the only angels still alive?
That is what I’d like Alice to ask them about. I thought Castiel killed all his angel brothers.
No, Castiel did not kill all his brothers.
The angel population has significantly dropped between Apocalypse, Heaven Civil War, Leviathan!Cas, and the Leviathans killing Castiel’s garrison.
7×23 Cas said he could not hear his garrison so they were probably all dead or in hiding.
From SPN, I have been lead to believe there is more than one garrison and each garrison gets one superior (in Castiel’s and his garrison’s case, this was Anna, and then later Zachariah after Anna fell).
I think Cas only hears members of his garrison as before the Apocalypse there were thousands of angels and that would be a lot of angels to hear mentally.
It wouldn’t be necessary for the angels to all be able to communicate to each other, as they would all of superiors to do that until the war.
suddenly not so excited for this season… sigh… ever since season 6, the supernatural writers ALWAYS find a way to kill my hopes.. I honestly don’t understand why they won’t show us some episodes of Cas and Dean on purgatory, trying to survive, meeting some “old friends” and then Sam in the real world trying to get them out, maybe with the help of some old friends too (and new ones, this show desperately needs new characters).. it will be such a buzz kill to see them out of purgatory on episode 1! but well, I still have hope on Jeremy Carver, so we’ll see. But right now, not really excited for this..
because the show ISN”T about cas and dean-its about dean and sam. gawd you cas people
It’s about family. Sam and Dean are the heart of the show. But Castiel is also a major part of it, because he’s family to the boys now. ๐ I look forward to seeing all three of them having adventures. I love all three of them, very much.
Ditto with everything sweetondean said..totally agree!
I can’t wait to see what’s in store for S8. Flashback episodes are great..SPN does an awesome job with them..and if they follow a format of S2 or S3 as it says then I’m all for it. S2 was my favorite season…and S5, but S2 was the best!!
Can’t wait..and honestly I’m glad we want notice anything different. Jeremy Carver knows this show and knows what works, so I look forward to whatever he plans this season.
I’m so excited that FINALLY stuff is coming out about S8..this hiatus has been hard!!
s1-3 are my faves!! i will be happy if they have that kinda feel again.
[i]It’s another angels and demons year.[/i]
Oh hell no! I am so sick of the angel story.
I’m hoping it’s heavier on demons than angels, honestly.
I like Crowley a lot, but I feel the angel arc is well over.
When’s the demon arc gonna be over then?
For continuity’s sake, they can’t just drop it. But don’t worry, Jeremy will handle this well, I trust him.
love the quest for the word of God as a main theme for S8, especially with Crowley as the puppetmaster, Mark Sheppard is underused.
I’m glad the’re not dropping the angels storyline, heaven is still in chaos, that needs to be adressed.
On the fence about the flashback, I really hoped for a few ep. about Dean in purgatory, but flashback could give a good dynamic and suspense, we’ll see.
Still framing Cas role out? Seriously? He should be front and center with the bros, especially if the arc involve the word of God.
Please SPN gods, I mean writers, don’t let us wait half the season in hope we get a glimpse of Cas. He’s part of the show, he’s family, he needs to mend his relation with Dean and develp one with Sam.
[quote]Still framing Cas role out? Seriously? He should be front and center with the bros, especially if the arc involve the word of God.
Please SPN gods, I mean writers, don’t let us wait half the season in hope we get a glimpse of Cas. He’s part of the show, he’s family, he needs to mend his relation with Dean and develp one with Sam.[/quote]
This! ๐
agreed! he’s been adopted into their family and he’s important too. their relationships need to be repaired some more, of course, and I really hope to see that happen!
Yeah, Castiel is not their family. In fact they made it pretty clear he wasn’t even a friend when they drove away and left him behind in the asylum.
The show really doesn’t need more Deus ex Castiel.
Hm, no, they actually made it loud and clear that they care about Castiel very, very deeply. Dean carried his coat car to car, town to town, hoping for his return, even though he was still mad at Cas. Sam promised Cas that they would find a way to fix him. They’ve both offered to die for Cas. Dean has specifically told Cas that, next to Sam, he and Bobby were the closest things he had to a family. Do you honestly think that if they didn’t care for him, that they would have not only put up with him this far, but also promised him a future in their lives? Dean would ‘rather have him, cursed or not.’ That’s pretty unequivocal. And it’s not a bad thing! Cas loves Dean AND Sam. He’d try to take care of them, right his wrongs, and fight for them. He’s never going to replace the brothers, who are indeed the very core of the show. He would never want to. He thinks they are far more important than anything, including Heaven, his family, his life, and God.
Exactly.
Plus, Castiel’s redemption story isn’t done, and with Bobby gone I think it would be good for Sam and Dean to have someone around. Cas needs to earn their friendship back, but he does care about them (he regrets very much over what he did), and Dean and Sam care about him too. He did wrong, but I think they’re willing to give him a second chance. Especially Sam. From 7×21, Sam seems to see the similarity of his situation in season 4 and 5 and Castiel’s.
agreed with Beth. Also, for your consideration:
(http://fangasmthebook.wordpress.com/2012/02/06/jensen-ackles-talks-dean-directing-and-more-in-nashvegas/)
Fan: How do you make certain decisions for Dean, like the scene where Cas dies and you took the trenchcoat out of the lake and folded it, that wasnรขโฌโขt scripted?
Jensen: It was not. A lot of those are just character instinctual things Iรขโฌโขve been playing Dean so long I feel like I have a pretty good handle on how he would react to a situation รขโฌโ his relationship with Cas was very deep, there was a deep friendship there, and I discussed it with Guy Bee, and said if he ever comes back, heรขโฌโขs gonna need the trench coat. And there was just something like, almost a closure, I was just folding it up, like a flag. So I pulled the coat out, and Guy was like รขโฌลDo that again.รขโฌย I wanted to take care of it, it belonged to somebody who meant a lot to Dean. So it was a happy accident. A lot is written, itรขโฌโขs a very well written show, but itรขโฌโขs nice when they happen.
–
Plus the fact that Dean explicitly tells Castiel he’s “like a brother” in 6.20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDnt_gquyCk which is probably the highest praise Dean could give someone, and absolutely not something he would say lightly.
I’ve never seen that whole piece before of Jensen talking about that.
He suggested keeping the trenchcoat? Well that solves the whole “that was fan service” thing.
Makes me smile knowing Jensen agrees it was a deep friendship. He’s acted as Dean for 7 years, who could argue with him?
Very nicely put about Castiel, seconded wholeheartedly. ^^
He’s definitely family, and what is Supernatural about if not family?
I mean, Bobby’s quote “Family don’t end with blood” always resonated really hard with me, and then you’ve got Dean saying that Cas is like a brother to him…
They really need the time to mend their relationship. (Again, quoting Bobby “They’re supposed to make you miserable! That’s why they’re FAMILY!”) I can’t wait to see them reconnect! It really looked like we were heading for a redemption arc for Cas in 7.23, or at least a ‘Dean-will-forgive-Cas’ arc, since Sam already has. (Honestly, Sam forgave Cas before the end of Season 6, looking at their interactions since then…)
I can’t wait to see all three of the boys in Season 8!
Bobby always had the best quotes! ๐ All very true.
Cas is like a brother to him the same way Adam is like a brother to him–whoops, except that Adam really is his brother, so Adam is more of a brother than Cas is. Maybe Dean can leave Cas behind in purgatory then, the same way he left Adam in hell.
[quote]Cas is like a brother to him the same way Adam is like a brother to him–whoops, except that Adam really is his brother, so Adam is more of a brother than Cas is. Maybe Dean can leave Cas behind in purgatory then, the same way he left Adam in hell.[/quote]
Ahahahahahaha, who knew that being someone’s half brother that you’ve never met, was worth something greater than being brothers in a metaphorical sense with someone for years, who you’ve been through much with.
Sorry. I’m not an Adam fan. I have half-siblings.. There is no inherent, inbuilt love without actually knowing the person. Dean tried with Adam, anyways and didn’t just forget, even if I had no care for it. STFU
No. Castiel is like a brother to Dean in that he knows Dean’s soul, and still loves him. He’s listened to Dean’s secrets and seen him cry. He’s given his life for Dean (and Sam). He’s like a brother in that Dean is also willing to die for him. Cas is like a brother, in the way Dean mourns him, and remembers him, and carries a piece of Cas with him through the whole seventh season. Cas is like family, in that Dean forgives him for hurting Sam, and would still rather have Cas, cursed or not. Cas is family, because Dean knows now, no matter what changes Castiel goes through, he will always choose to follow Dean, into death and beyond. He’s family to Dean, because Dean heard an angel doubt, saw him rebel, and helped him fight for freedom for years. He’s family, as Bobby was family, as Jess was family. Dean included Cas in his description of family, and then compared the importance of his relationship with Cas to the importance of his relationship with Lisa and Ben. Dean took him back, as his “wing man” even when Cas said he couldn’t fight. All of these things are writ, and concrete. Canonized. Dean cares for Cas, second only to Sam (especially now that Bobby is departed). He wants him in his life. ๐ Sam also forgives Cas, cares for Castiel, considers him their friend, and has offered to die for Castiel. Sam was the one who forgave Castiel first, and was (still is) convinced they could save the angel from his own demise. The brothers have basically adopted Cas, without the paperwork. Let love live!
Oh wow you’ve got to be sorely disappointed then when Dean didn’t give a flying crap where Castiel was or that he wasn’t a friend. He uses Castiel, he knows Castiel owes him for what he’s done and the writers have nearly ruined the character of Dean Winchester because of him.
Canon is also the fact he lied and betrayed both brothers. Canon is also fact that he uses Castiel for his powers. Canon is also the fact that there is no deep connection between Castiel and Dean other than the writers trying to put crap into Deans mouth.
Canon is also Jensen being embarrassed by the trenchcoat scene and knows it was totally OOC.
It’s interesting how you’re trying to claim canon by refuting the actual show’s dialogue. I don’t think your argument holds much weight, because you’re not logically consistent with those kinds of statements.
Of course he uses Castiel’s power. Just like he uses Sam’s skill in research. Just like he uses Bobby’s fake telephone line and house. Dean often doesn’t ask Castiel to use his powers to help them, and Castiel does it anyway, because he is their friend. Castiel will always offer as much assistance as is in his power to offer. Dean was content to keep Cas with them when his powers were fading and he was becoming mortal, fifth season. Dean still wants Cas with them now, even though Castiel considers himself cursed. Dean’s still willing to take that risk, because it is Castiel.
I’m pretty happy with the direction that their relationship has taken, since it shows signs of mending. ๐ I look forward to seeing that next season.
Castiel is Dean’s family in a sense so if ? which no doubt they will repair his relationship with Dean that is fine.That is why I believe he will have a say in how Dean gets out.
I dont really need him and Sam to become buddy /buddies. I want Sam to develop something away from that Dean/Castiel dynamics it has never done Sam any favours and I dont believe it ever will so that is why I have been so big on Sam having that relationship seperate from the other two.
I know others want different .
I think Sam and Cas are friends outside of Castiel’s relationship with Dean, it’s just less emphasized in the show. I mean, Sam did still say he believed in Cas at the beginning of Season 7 (I think it was 7.01?) and he did seem concerned about Cas in recent episodes (he did promise Cas that they’d try to make him better. I think my heart broke when Cas replied ‘what do you mean, ‘better’?’)
And Cas did pull Sam out of Hell. He didn’t do a perfect job, but he tried. (I figure anything is better than Sam being eternally left to rot in the Cage, since I don’t think Dean could have gotten him from there and I don’t think anyone with the ability to spring Sam would have tried besides Cas.)
But I agree that the brothers should have separate relationships with other characters. They don’t need to bond to all of the same characters or bond in the same way to the others. Sam doesn’t need to share the same bond with Cas that Dean does, and I hope Sam forms friendships with other characters while Dean is in Purgatory; Dean won’t need to share those relationships either. ^_^
Jared said Sam and Castiel weren’t friends. I agree with Jared. Castiel is Dean’s friend not Sam’s. And that’s fine. I’m not sure why Show keeps insisting that the brothers have the same friends/allies when nothing shown reflects that. Sam does, however, empathize with Castiel because of his own bad decisions.
I would love to see Sam make some new, non-evil, non-crazy hunter friends. The hunting world needs to be broadened. Sam has no friends. His last friends were in college. Give him some friends.
I have to disagree, I believe Sam and Castiel are friends. It’s taken them a long time to become friends, and it’s still kind of rocky between them, but they are friends. Sam says in 6×20 that “he’s our friend too, okay, and I’d die for him, I would.” In 5×13, Castiel says Sam is his friend. The way Sam has forgiven Castiel and promised to help him get better also speaks of loyalty and friendship, to me. ๐
That said, of course I’d love to see Sam make more friends, new friends! He’s a beautiful soul, and he seems to make friends wherever he goes. (Like with the girl at the asylum.)
Sam and Dean sometimes just say things that don’t mean anything deep. They try to make sense of it all. Sam and Dean put their lives on the line for random strangers let alone Castiel. But they would die for each other, with each other that is the difference.
Yes, sometimes what they say is not what they mean. But I’ve never seen Dean call someone a member of his family and not mean it. He places the highest value on familial love. It’s part of what makes the show great.
They do put their lives on the line for strangers, that’s part of what makes them heroes. But Sam said specifically that he would die for Cas out of friendship, in season 6. “He’s our friend, too, Dean, and I’d die for him, I would.” Dean tells Castiel specifically that Cas and Bobby are the closest things he has to a family outside of Sam. He even compares the potential loss of Castiel with the loss of Lisa and Ben. These were very pointed and sincere statements. Dean is the one who defends Cas to Sam and Bobby, when they suspect him (rightly) of working with Crowley. Dean is the one Castiel can’t look at in the eyes and lie to. Castiel offers to go die with Dean in the season 7 finale. Ben Edlund, series writer, has called Castiel a ‘third brother’. They mean business. They are sincere. Otherwise, Castiel’s betrayal and death this season wouldn’t even have any meaning, and all the brothers’ actions subsequent would make no sense.
There’s a great deal of logic to be found in admitting that Dean and Cas are close, are friends. ๐
Also, Sam is the one who insisted that Cas could still be saved while he was playing God. Sam is the one who still believed in Cas, and almost immediately acted with tenderness and forgiveness towards Castiel, despite a broken wall. Sam is the one who goes out of his way this season to address Castiel’s loss, Sam is the one who objects to leaving Castiel in the asylum, and Sam suggests that they continue to call on Castiel for help while he’s mentally unstable. (“We could call Cas.” “Dude, on my car, he showed up naked, covered in bees.”) Sam is the first one who told Cas they’d fix this, after explaining that he’d been there himself and understood Cas’ situation. So, yes. Castiel and Sam are friends.
[quote]I have to disagree, I believe Sam and Castiel are friends. [/quote]
Well, Jared disagrees w/you. He said Sam and Castiel were NOT friends. I’ve never seen anything to indicate that they are friends, so I agree w/Jared.
I don’t recall the line from 6×20, but I think that’s a little OTT. But that’s just me.
Look, you may think I’m some Castiel hater, but I’m really not. I actually have no problem w/Castiel or Misha. I have a problem w/the writers not bothering to show the development of a relationship, etc. My problem is with the frequent TELLING rather than SHOWING the writers do.
I believe Dean and Castiel are friends. Do I believe Dean views Castiel as a brother based on what I’ve watched – no, I don’t. I think that’s overstating matters.
Do I think Sam and Castiel are friends? No, I don’t. They barely, and rarely, interact or speak to each other. I was shocked when Castiel told Anna Sam was his friend back in TSRTS. I was like, “When did that happen?” It was the subject of discussion online.
I don’t think the writers have bothered to create a Sam/Castiel relationship the way they have w/Dean and Castiel. Too often, the show assigns Dean’s feelings to Sam instead of showing us Sam bonding w/these people like Dean.
So, in my mind, the show has not established a Sam/Castiel friendship. They could, but they haven’t done so as of yet.
Perhaps it’s more one-sided, than anything. But considering how much of the time Sam has spent this season being a) devoid of a soul, and b) suffering a spiritual psychosis, that wouldn’t surprise me. Misha said, at a convention, in response to a question of whether Cas saved Sam for Sam’s sake or for Dean, “Cas loves Sam.” Castiel has, according to his own words (spoken not for Sam’s benefit, or in Dean’s hearing) considered Sam a friend since season 5.
But personally, I think it’s mutual. (I mean, when someone repeatedly dies on your family’s behalf, you feel a little bit affectionate towards them, usually.) It took a long time coming, and they’ll probably never be best friends. But when you take into account little moments like Sam being the first to notice Castiel’s return at the end of 5×13, and rushing to help him, with at least equal relief and concern — or when Sam and Castiel talk about their shared vision of Lucifer (as a remnant of Sam’s psychosis) — or when Sam sees Castiel alive and talking in the asylum, his relieved “Hey, Castiel” — or the fact that he objected to leaving Cas instead of bringing him with them — or the fact that he objected to Meg’s threats to take Cas in 7×17 — it adds up to an impression of solidarity, if not deep friendship. I interpret their relationship as friends, but not close. After all, Sam still lets Dean do pretty much all the talking when it comes to Cas. ๐
They haven’t had many moments together, partially because Castiel’s primary bond is with Dean, and partially because Misha and Jared are too busy goofing around when together to get much work done. ๐ I think it’s an under-developed relationship, I hope the writers allow us more nice moments between them, as well.
Castiel is not Deans friend. Dean has one problem, he hasn’t really had a non-related friend and doesn’t know what is expected of them. But using them, lying and manipulating them is not something a friend would do.
Dean would never ever leave Sam in an asylum for anything…there that says it all. Castiel is just someone they use.
You can deny it as much and as loudly as you want, but Dean has been calling Cas his friend since early on. The fact that he’s still willing to forgive Cas is an act of friendship, if not downright love, on his part — especially after Sam’s wall. I’m sorry, it’s a canon part of the universe that Sam and Bobby have actually commented on, to Dean’s face. ๐
I love how you’ve taken 10 lines from the show and revolved the whole show around it. Sam and Dean do not need Castiel and should not need him, they are heroes and friends and comrads in their own rights and always have been. They’ve always had people around them and the loss of Castiel was nothing if not OOC and OTT for all involved. The real emotion wasn’t there.
Real emotion came with the loss of Dean and Sam and John and even Bobby. They are all part of each others lives and do things for the better of each other. Castiel did things for the betterment of himself.
Dean will use him like he’s used him before and Sam and Dean will be reunited. And hopefully Dean and Sam will be able to move on and win this fight like they have done before, together.
The real emotion was there. Dean was bothered by Castiel’s death the whole season. He had nightmares about it. The only time he didn’t care was when he was high on a sandwich, and the fact that he picked Cas as the specific issue he didn’t even care about anymore while high, was indicative of the fact that he cared very much. I could pull many, many more lines and examples out of the show, if you would like. I was using a few particularly strong ones, because I like them. ๐
I like that it is canonized that Castiel was the best friend Dean ever had (quote from Bobby). I’m sorry you disagree.
How do you know Dean had nightmares about Cas’s death all season long?
I’m not being sarcastic, but did I miss some dialogue where this was stated? I found the season to be terrible so I didn’t pay too much attn to the episodes, but did Dean say that? And if Dean was so saddened by Castiel’s absence, I wonder why he didn’t seem to care too much about Castiel during the year he was w/Lisa and Ben. He wasn’t calling on Castiel or thinking about his BFF at all.
Again, I think the writers have gone OTT in the dialogue w/r/t Dean and Castiel. I do think Dean considered Castiel a friend, but his BFF . . . not that I saw.
Bobby (“Hello Cruel World”) approaches Dean, to ask how he’s holding up. When Dean tries to brush him off, Bobby points out, “Course. You just lost one of the best friends you ever had, your brotherรขโฌโขs in the bell jar, and purgatoryรขโฌโขs most wanted are surfing the sewer lines, but you know, yeah, I get it. Youรขโฌโขre fine.”
In “Shut Up, Dr. Phil”, we see Dean dreaming about 1) Castiel walking into the lake, 2) Sam shooting a gun at a hallucination, and 3) Dean killing Amy. We’re shown these three things, because they are connected, and Dean’s subconscious knows it.
In “How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters”, Dean eats a Turducken, and gets high. Bobby says “There’s something wrong with you!” And Dean replies, “Are you kidding? I actually feel great! Best I’ve felt in a couple months. Cas, black goo — I don’t even care anymore. And you know what’s even better? I don’t care, that I don’t care.”
Later on in 7×09, Sam and Bobby discuss how Dean’s doing while he sleeps off the Turducken. Sam: “So you think he’s okay?” Bobby (sighs heavily): “He’s alright.” Sam: “So you don’t worry about him?” Bobby: “What do you mean? Like, [i]before[/i] the Turducken?” Sam: “Yeah, I kinda mean like, ever since my head broke, [b]and we lost Cas[/b]. I mean, you ever feel like he’s going through the motions but he’s not the same Dean?” Bobby: “How could he be?”
Dean and Bobby have a conversation a few scenes later in that episode, discussing Dean’s passive suicidal state. Dean’s “had it.” It’s a really sad scene, that gives some sight into Dean’s situation this season. But he’s speaking to Bobby, a man who had to kill his father, and his own wife. Bobby knows what it’s like to lose your motivation to live, and still keep on living anyway.
Near the end of the season, when talking to Emmanuel, Dean says, about his friend who betrayed him and hurt Sam, “Honestly, I-I don’t know if he is dead. I just know that this whole thing, couldn’t be messier. You know I used to be able to just shake this stuff off, you know whatever it was, it might take some time, but I always could. What Cas did, I just can’t, and I don’t know why.”
When Emmanuel tries to reassure Dean that “It doesn’t matter why,” Dean interrupts him to say, “Of course it matters!”
I’d encourage you to watch the scene, it’s lovely.
Near the end of the episode, Dean pulls out Cas’ trenchcoat and hands it to him. Again, from this gesture, we know that Dean carried the coat with him from town to town and stolen car to stolen car, until he could give it back to Cas. From the episode preview, we have the cut line “Part of me always believed you would come back.”
All of the above examples indicate that Castiel, his betrayal, and his death, weighed heavily on Dean’s mind. It contributed to his drinking, depression, and reticence this season. I tried to provide specific examples, so I apologize for the length of this reply. ๐
As to the period before Season 6, it does not surprise me that Dean did not call on Cas. He also didn’t call on Bobby. Dean said goodbye to his hunter’s life, which included all his friends/family from that life. He didn’t want to think about anything that could be connected with Sam (even though everything he ever did or would do, would connect his thoughts to Sam). He’d promised Sam he’d get out, and be normal. That didn’t include angels, or old town drunks. Also, Castiel said he was returning to Heaven. I’m pretty sure they both thought that was goodbye. Castiel probably wouldn’t have gotten involved in their lives again, had Raphael not been determined to restart the apocalypse and destroy the earth.
But just because two soldiers go home from war and never see or speak to each other again, does not mean their bond is any less, or that they don’t remember the long nights in the trenches, fighting for their lives.
no-not family-a pain in the arse who has done nothing but ruined sam and betrayed dean. if the character of dean was written the way kripke wrote him-dean would have killed cas in s6 for breaking sam’s wall.
[quote]no-not family-a pain in the arse who has done nothing but ruined sam and betrayed dean. if the character of dean was written the way kripke wrote him-dean would have killed cas in s6 for breaking sam’s wall.[/quote]
Agree. Its so simple its insane that people that watch the show don’t see this.
I disagree. (You are aware that Kripke is still heavily involved in the show, aren’t you?)
If all Castiel had ever done was ruin Sam and betray Dean, I’d probably hate him too. But that is nowhere near the truth of the matter.
1) Castiel has died for them, several times (lol only in Supernatural could you get this kind of repeat self-sacrifice). Many people consider this the greatest sign of loyalty and love. When a soldier gives his life so that a comrade might live and continue to fight in his place, their awarded high honor. The Biblical standpoint is that “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
2) Castiel has risked his life to bring the brothers back together, or save them from some dire circumstance, on many occasions. (Changing Channels, Two Minutes to Midnight, The Rapture, Sympathy for the Devil, Abandon All Hope — Need I go on?) Castiel pointed out, during his decline in season 6, that one of the only times he felt like himself was when he was protecting the Winchester brothers. He still “considered himself the Winchesters’ guardian.”
3) Castiel [i]cares[/i] about the brothers. Deeply. Inappropriately (for an angel). It’s one of the reasons his superiors demoted him early on. He’s never recovered from caring too much for them.
You’re bothered by Castiel’s betrayal of Dean. Well, so am I. But to have that betrayal, there had to be something to betray, there had to be trust there in the first place. Dean had to trust Cas (which he did, refer please to The Man Who Would Be King). Which in turn means that not all Castiel ever did was betray and hurt them. Dean wouldn’t have trusted him in that instance.
4) Dean trusts Castiel, still, to a huge degree. He trusts him to do the right thing, to heal Sam, and to walk into Dick Roman’s headquarters with them and not disappear. They are rebuilding their trust, together. Dean wouldn’t do that if Cas wasn’t his friend (like a brother to him, quote-unquote) and if all Cas had done was cause him pain.
Kripke was still writing and running the show when they brought back Cas in season five. Kripke was showrunner when they had Cas embark on his own specific quest for God, while still involved in the brothers’ storyline (treating him like another main character, with importance and respect, even if the focus was on the brothers the whole time). Castiel and Dean had some of their most poignant bonding moments under Kripke’s leadership.
I honestly don’t think you can assume what he would do, in this situation, without being him.
A person can dislike Castiel, but painting him as a one-dimensional villain just makes them seem like they are not paying attention to the show.
Wow, right back into the season 4-5 angel crapfest. I guess it really is time to give up on this show.
Okay. I love the angels-and-demons storyline. I always have. I’ll be watching eagerly this next season.
Yeah, I haven’t been this excited since Season 5. ๐
I know. Where does that leave Sam and Dean. No powers relying on those characters that do to fight their fight. Great and it worked so well the last time.
It did work pretty well the last time. ๐ Those seasons got some of the highest ratings, and picked up a host of new fans for the show. Kripke got his five seasons, and Swan Song was one of the most beautiful episodes ever filmed on the show. In the end of it, Sam and Dean’s love and sacrifice saved the whole world. Yup, it seemed pretty awesome, to me. Seasons 4 and 5 are still many people’s favorites (me included). ๐
Wow, negativity is cropping its head already based on a few spoilers. No disrespect, but this again goes to show that the writers really can’t please everyone (which is fair, they shouldn’t be EXPECTED to please everyone!)… because I’m betting if Singer had said the brothers are separated for an extended period this year, the backlash would also be significant.
I for one am excited by these spoilers. The quest aspect has potential, and I agree with sweetondean that the angels shouldn’t be ignored. (I think I read somewhere that one way to improve the show would be to decide whether the angels stay or go; sounds to me that the writers are deciding they stay.) Plus I’m curious about this monster from Purgatory that Dean meets. Bring on Season 8!!
I think Supernatural writers are severely under-appreciated! Poor people, they have the most opinionated viewers to please. ๐
I am actually excited. I know fans will never be pleased, but I feared that we would have season 8 in the begining be about Cas and Dean down there and Sam trying to save them, that to me doesn’t sound exciting and I was ready to give up. I watch for Sam and dean, so i am happy they are reunited quick. I hate when they are separated. Again, fans will never be pleased, but you should never assume something will be exactly like you imagined because the writers have a different vision and their own take on the show. I for one am happy with the route they are choosing to take.
“Because fans usually hate it when the brothers are separated, so thatรขโฌโขs why theyรขโฌโขre being reunited quickly.”
uhm sorry, but to me that is not exactly “the writers have a different vision and their own take on the show”
Well having the brothers together is natural, they are important to the show. A ton of fans watch for the brothers too, but that isn’t exactly about creating a new vision or having their own vision, it’s understanding that the brothers are needed to drive the show, but what happens to the brothers is up to the writers and their vision.
I too am glad that the creators realise that this show is about the boys being together and that is what primarily the viewers want to see.
ANGELS. Oh gosh, yes, I’m THRILLED by this news. The angels added such a freshness to the show, but were never explored to their full potential. I really hope they take full advantage of angels returning! Can we get Inias back? He was such a sweetheart.
All of my love for Inias.
I love Inias!
Are you being sarcastic or not? I can not tell.
I love Castiel. That is all.
No angel would ever compete with Cas but I liked some others as well like Balthazar and Gabriel, and now Inias.
Castiel is my number one angel forever and always. ๐
Amen. ๐
If only Misha could act.
I think his acting is fantastic. ๐
One of my favorite quotes about his acting is when Jensen said Misha’s interpretation of the Leviathan made him “pee a little.” ๐
Anyway, he’s a very versatile actor, and I’m glad to have him on the show.
Haven’t they been promising “Back to S2” since before S6?? I struggled to believe that they could return to the past credibly. It’s doubly hard to believe after S7’s contrived, rehashed feel.
After Butch & Sundance failure, it’s hard to get excited about Raiders of the Lost Ark. But, I guess we can’t expect much from a show this old. Damn, why did S4-S5 have to be so damn good? It makes it hard to watch this show die with a wimper.
I loved Castiel too. But I’m tired of seeing him mangled for nothing.
I get what you are saying, but a lot of us fans do keep watching for the brotherly bond back, and that is the feel of season 1-3. Jensen is the biggest supporter of this, he keeps wanting it, and I keep agreeing with it. The brothers is what makes the show.
I can’t speak for the majority of fans, but I know I care about well-developed plot and characters over forcing Sam and Dean together 24/7 at the expense of everything else. I want the boys back together, sure thing, but not if it means cutting from other aspects of the show which is what I’m worried is going to happen.
I care about well developed plot and characters too. Like they are hinting that Cas just appears for a few episodes. What does he appear for? Like if Cas is going to be there, it should be for a puprouse, and not for him to just stand there. I mean they will never take away the bond of the brothers, too important for the show, but I hope they don’t forget about the plot and other characters.
He certainly won’t just stand there. If Cas is anything, he’s a proactive character. He’s always been instrumental in moving the plot forward and finding solutions to the brothers issues (sometimes too easily, where the writers have painted themselves into a corner, aka much of season 7). He won’t be useless, no worries. ๐
Sam and Dean are the plot, the reason and the arc for every supernatural episode.
But it’s okay to throw away continuity and logic to keep bringing Castiel back over and over again? To give him a wife for no reason at all then ignore her and to resurrect him with no explanation? That’s your idea of a well-developed plot?
When did I ever say something like that? What I expressed worry over was the fact that it seems the team is throwing away an opportunity to explore a really cool new world, and individual character development for Sam and Dean, by forcing them back together quickly. And it could be that that won’t be the case, in which case I’ll be pleased! And if you’re so curious, I thought Daphne’s plot was completely useless – not to mention impossible, as Castiel wouldn’t have had the required paperwork to even get married in the first place.
Please don’t put words into my mouth or make assumptions about me, thank you.
Then what “other aspects” of the show are you talking about in your comment above if not Castiel?
Well, for just a few examples of things I would’ve liked to see, but worry we won’t in favor of the Winchesters’ reuniting so quickly:
1. to reiterate, Dean and Sam developing on their own. Learning to be stronger and more independent, that way when they return to being together they’ll be there not because they literally cannot survive without one another but more because they’re really ready to fix their relationship and want to be by one another’s sides.
2. Conversely, less positive development is still development, and time spent apart from one another could spur that on in one or both of the brothers.
(One break Sam and Dean took from one another comes to mind, in early season 5, when Sam met that girl at the bar he was working at for a while and had his realization when she told him that people could be forgiven for anything. That was important for his character.)
3. Purgatory. Going by lore, Purgatory is a place of cleansing. Perhaps this is where Dean can purge all his old guilt and hurt and so on. I’d love to get time to see Dean recover from all the trauma he’s endured, and it’d be really cool if while fighting monsters we could see Dean do this. That’s one possible plot that may be thrown to the wayside. (I’m very much in support of a Dean-centirc storyline this season, that can deal with Dean’s admittedly more “human” emotional issues and perhaps address his drinking problem!)
4. First off Castiel’s presence and Dean and Sam’s reuniting don’t conflict, in my eyes. However, I see Purgatory (if indeed Castiel wasn’t yanked out of there by Crowley or some other force) an opportunity for Dean and Castiel’s friendship to mend while they’re forced to work together to get out of Purgatory and back to Sam. That’s another opportunity that may or may not be thrown aside.
5. Back to the boys being separated, another thing I thought it gave great opportunity to was Sam gathering a force/support structure that would work together to get Dean (and Cas) back. Jody, Garth, Charlie, Missouri, perhaps, and maybe even Inias (presuming he was one of the angels who when into hiding). I know it’s been said that they want to bring back some old faces, so I’m excited to see that happen.
So yeah, those are a few examples. Granted Castiel is in there, but he’s certainly not the crux of it.
Good reply! Excellent points! My hope is that they don’t sacrifice this, at all. Even a retro-active viewpoint is better than none. They could be building suspense, by revealing the story in flash-back form. Your fifth point is one of my favorite prayers for the new season, because I’ve loved all these side-characters. I would love to see all of them come back, at some point. ๐
I’d rather see Sam get Dean out of purgatory. I would HATE a storyline about “an opportunity Dean and Castiel’s friendship to mend while they’re forced to work together to get out of Purgatory and back to Sam” because that makes Sam a passive bystander and side character just sitting around twiddling his thumbs while The Dean and Cas Show plays out. remember, it’s actually Castiel who is the side character. Ugh. It pisses me off so much even just reading that you suggested that.
Also Sam and Dean don’t have to be alone to learn “to be stronger and more independent.”
The only one of your points I agree with is #3.
Maybe you misunderstand: Dean and Cas’s roles in Purgatory wouldn’t [i]be[/i] the entire story line, it would be one of several story lines that tie together.
Sam battling to save them is not a passive role.
According to Ben Edlund, Castiel is a third brother. I think he’s more than a side character. Misha earned his place as a co-star just like Castiel earned his place with the brothers. It’s not the Dean and Cas show, it’s Supernatural, which thankfully includes Dean and Castiel and Sam and everyone else that makes up their quirky family.
Sam and Dean don’t necessarily need to be separated, but it might do them good. They’ve never been completely alone, until recently. They had John, and Bobby, and Missouri, and then Ellen and Jo and Ash, and all the beautiful characters they leaned on throughout the series. They have always needed (and wanted!) a support system, and family to come alongside them. They yearn for love, and have had their own respective romantic relationships, with Cassie, with Jess, with Lisa. That’s part of the reason they were so miserable this season. They lost [b]everyone[/b]. They are not happy alone, they can’t grow well without friends and helpers. They just get tired. It’s okay for siblings to look outside of each other for love, because it doesn’t make them love each other any less. That’s just not how love works.
(Edited by Alice) – I’ve been getting complaints. Sorry, this is angry, offensive disrespect to another poster. I don’t believe that was the impression at all. Please tone down the hostility.
In this case, Beth is welcome to speak for me since she’s written out some of my thoughts perfectly!
And goodness, Dean and Sam are fictional characters who we’ve been with for years and years – I don’t think anyone is claiming to be inside their heads, but I’d think that enough of us have studied literature and television and such long enough and have watched this show long enough that we could understand these characters and muse on what may be good plot/development for them!
[quote]But it’s okay to throw away continuity and logic to keep bringing Castiel back over and over again? To give him a wife for no reason at all then ignore her and to resurrect him with no explanation? That’s your idea of a well-developed plot?[/quote]
As a Casfan, it’s fine by me. ๐
No, few fans were happy with that. Misha was seriously confused why there was no explanation for how Cas came back. We (I hope no one minds if I say ‘we’?) want Castiel in the show, preferably permanently, but we are also unhappy with bad writing and continuity flaws. Daphne served no purpose, but maybe they will remedy that next season, and tie her in. Explain a few things. And let us keep one of our favorite characters, who has really brought so much to the show. Some fans watch for the brothers, some watch for Castiel, and some watch for Team Free Will. It’s all valid. We all love the show.
I most definitely do mind if you say “we”. I don’t want Castiel back.
[quote]I most definitely do mind if you say “we”. I don’t want Castiel back.[/quote]
As a fan for the brothers, I wouldn’t want Cas there permeantly either. I like that he is there for a few episodes, but I can only take him in doses.
Oops, I apologize. I knew I should have written, ‘many fans of Castiel’ instead. ๐ I respect your opinion, and must vociferously disagree.
Edited by Alice – Yeah, I got to edit this one. Sorry, it’s offensive and labels fans, despite the intent. I’ll give a friendly warning, watch what you say in heated discussions. There’s a lot of sensitivity right now.
[quote][quote]Oops, I apologize. I knew I should have written, ‘many fans of Castiel’ instead. ๐ I respect your opinion, and must vociferously disagree.[/quote]
LOL, dude, only Cas-haters are allowed to imply (and dare I say it [i]claim[/i]!) that they speak for the entire fandom! :-)[/quote]
Was that a dig at me? OUCH! I never claim anything, I only ever speak for myself and what I think. No need to put down fans, just simply disagree like Beth did. I don’t agree with Beth, but it is what it is. No need to mock or insult fans.
While I’m not sure of the intent, try not to be too offended. I gave a warning to Katie in hopes to keep this civil, but if you are truly offended by a comment, feel free to hit “Report to the Administrator.” I promise it’ll be dealt with.
Hopping in to say: I’m all for having Castiel back, and I was glad to see him back the times he’s returned, but I’ve been SERIOUSLY disappointed in the methods they’ve employed to do so. Then again, the writing – not necessarily on individual episodes but on the overall season and how it was handled – was lackluster all season 7 (and even back in season 6 if we want to go that far back in our memory) so.
p.s. I’m a Team Free Will fan all the way, man. All the way.
Team Free Will all the way. ๐
I don’t get it. How having S&D together affects negatively other aspects of the show?
No, it wouldn’t inherently of course – I was just worrying aloud that it could keep them from taking the opportunity of developing separately, or building outside relationships (I do have hopes for Sam’s new love interest, though) which is something I know Jared wants to see as well.
Well, purgatory was a whole new world. Like, none of us had ever seen or explored purgatory or knew any of the rules. We know heaven, we know hell. This was NEW. And it’s supposed to be almost impossible to get to, or escape from, so it seemed like it was a one-shot opportunity for exploration. They could do ANYTHING there. Introduce ANYTHING. Any kind of new game changer. ANY kind of new big bad, curse, terrible thing nobody ever even thought of, that could affect supernatural for years to come maybe. And it wouldn’t be lame, or cheating. I thought it was brilliant. But apparently they are throwing that idea away in one episode. Which seems an INCREDIBLE waste from a storytelling perspective, especially in a show it its seventh season.
eighth! my bad.
I am not losing hope about exploration of Purgatory just yet. The flashbacks could do just that. There is a more recent spoiler from Carina at Zap2it stating that the cliffhanger this season is how Dean gets out of Purgatory.
http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2012/07/10-spoilers-nikita-heads-to-hong-kong-for-season-3-premiere-parenthood-adds-a-love-interest-and-more.html
That spoiler leads me to believe that some parts of Purgatory will be explored.
I don’t personally think they’re ‘throwing it away’. Even if we just get the story in flash-backs, we’re still going to see and experience Purgatory. I’m still excited. A little disappointed, sure, but still excited. ๐
if you would watch interviews and panels from conventions you would see Jensen is also a big supporter of secondary characters and he asked the fans to send out their requests to bring old characters back like Chuck, Gabriel (and Cas, but he’s already back). Yeah, the brothers are a big part of the show, but it’s not all about them.
That is true Joanna, but that is because Jensen and Jared both like a bit of relaxation and they need other characters there, he doesn’t mind and neither does Jared, but Jensen and Jared always speak about the brothers. Jensen also is the biggest supporter when it comes to the brothers, and he is quotes many times of wanting the feeling of season 1 and 3 back. doesn’t mean he doesn’t want other characters, just means he understands that what made this show special is the brothers.
If I recall correctly, Jared was quoted in S7 as saying that the show was not about “a demon chick” or “some angel”, but that it was about the brothers. He took some heat for that comment, but I like that he said it and that he agrees with Jensen, that the core of the show is the relationship of the brothers. It’s a pity that the showrunners don’t feel the same way.
in the end, each person interprets the show as they want. You say it’s about two brothers, I say it’s about family (family don’t end with blood), love, redemption, forgiveness.
And Jared was also excited for the brothers to spend some time apart, because it translates to more time Jared can spend with his new family. The show is not about a demon chick, or some angel. The heart of the show is definitely the brothers. But it’s nice that their family includes more than just the two of them, since that is also an essential message of the show. ๐ Jensen and Jared are both glad to have “Mish” back as Castiel. Jared said at breakfast at Nashcon, “We’ve missed him as much as ya’ll have!” At that same breakfast panel, Jensen said that having Misha back on set was refreshing, and that he was one of the family. Both actors are glad he’s back.
Well, Sam and Dean ARE the main characters after all, so it’s only natural that they are a big part of the show. But Sam and Dean don’t need to be together 24/7 to prove that they have a bond. In fact I think pushing them apart would make wonders to their relationship. Jared also said recently that he was looking forward to see the brothers apart for a bit. Which by the look of it, it’s not gonna happen.
[quote]Well, Sam and Dean ARE the main characters after all, so it’s only natural that they are a big part of the show. But Sam and Dean don’t need to be together 24/7 to prove that they have a bond. In fact I think pushing them apart would make wonders to their relationship. Jared also said recently that he was looking forward to see the brothers apart for a bit. Which by the look of it, it’s not gonna happen.[/quote]
I am actually glad it won’t happen. Love the brothers together, but just because they are reuinted doesn’t mean they are stuck to the hip. I am sure something will happen where one is off on their own for an entire episode. That will keep things fresh, the point of the matter for me, is that I am glad they are reunited and not separated for long episodes like many fans wished for.
The brothers and their relationship are definitely not under threat. I don’t know anyone who wants to see it perish. It would be like taking Hugh Laurie out of House, MD — impossible. There are fans who want to see the brothers develop, and people have different opinions how best to do that. But no one (at least, that I’ve ever talked to) wants the brothers to be at odds, no one wants them crushed or crippled. Giving them time apart or a mutual enemy would allow them to fight against something that wasn’t themselves or each other, that’s all. And Dean is definitely in need of some healing. And Sam’s in need of a friend. I’m happy about this next season, if for no other reason than to hope those needs are addressed.
[i]The brothers and their relationship are definitely not under threat. I don’t know anyone who wants to see it perish.[/i]
Here’s the problem with that. Two, potentially three brother scenes were cut from the finale. An SPN finale has always been defined by the brothers and their relationship and yet there were no significant brother moments in that finale this year. Someone made that choice to cut those. Someone made the choice to not allow the brothers’ arc or either of their character arcs to come to a resolution. Every finale has some kind of resolution for the year for their leads. SPN cut that out of the final product.
So that *is* a problem.
Robert Singer directed that episode, the very same Robert Singer who is quoted here as using a time jump to please fans such as yourself by reuniting the brothers more quickly. The very same Robert Singer who cut out a significant part of the trenchcoat scene. I was also excited for the “Don’t die” scene, because promotional pictures showed Cas standing with the brothers, gearing up for a fight alongside them (something I was briefly worried wouldn’t happen). I would have liked to see that scene too. Especially since they used it in promo pics. :/
From a narrative standpoint, it’s not the job of a television finale to resolve the plot as much as it is to create a jumping board for the new season. You’re supposed to end on a cliff-hanger, with the audience jumping in their seats to know what happens, how the characters will face down an even worse problem. That’s just good writing.
I think, from a fan perspective, that they were trying to fit a two-hour finale into a one-hour time slot. ๐ I would have loved to see more moments between the brothers, but I still like what I got. It made me very excited to watch the next season, so it served its purpose.
[quote][i]The brothers and their relationship are definitely not under threat. I don’t know anyone who wants to see it perish.[/i]
Here’s the problem with that. Two, potentially three brother scenes were cut from the finale..[/quote]
Didn’t know that. Well, that’s not encouraging! No wonder the finale’s only two bright moments – for me – were w/the Alpha Vamp and w/Dean yelling at Castiel for not cleaning up the mess he (Cas) made! I was just happy someone told off doofus Cas who was neither amusing or fun.
The brother moments make the show. I hope those scenes are at least included on the DVD.
Some of us thought Cas’ deflections were funny, at times. At other times, they were sad, because they were an indication of his mental/emotional/spiritual turmoil. I guess it’s all subjective.
I thought there were several bright moments in the finale, including seeing Baby careen down the road, and seeing Sam admit to coming to terms with himself, at least a little bit. ๐ I also enjoyed seeing Castiel engage in the fighting, rather than hiding out of fear that he would mess up again. Some of the bravest actions we can ever take, as people, is to keep going after we fail.
I look forward to a really poignant reunion for the brothers, next season. Hopefully they’ll also include some of the cut scenes on the dvd. ๐
There were always re-occuring characters in Season 1,2, and 3 (John, Bobby, Ellen, Jo, and Ash, etc)
Having them has always been a part of SPN. Dean and Sam don’t need to be alone to get the old SPN feel.
If they don’t know what to do with a secondary character, they should not feel the need to include that character. Just saying.
Rest soud okay to me so far.
well this is not good flashback from dean time in purgatory WTF are they thinking its season 4 all over again so sick of it he bitched about his time in hell and now this come on. It sucks because sam has really never talked about his time in hell and there have not a damn thing to do with sam again this season the new girl yes in ep 3 but thats it not helping dean get out nothing wow this will really suck damn I hope this is the last season so these guys can do movies and be big stars like they should be.
They haven’t told the whole story line, how do you get no Sam story out of all this?
It will not be the last season, the cw prez said so.
well to me its all the dean and cas show all over again and what sam is not doing a goddamn thing again. all I hear is girlfriend and thats not a good thing you know all his girlfriends die right? And if it keeps on being bad like everyone said season 7 was I think this will be the last season I am wishing for 10 seasons but will not get it if this nexts suck I hope that JC does a great job with show runner I am keeping my hopes up.
Coherent and well-thought out, thanks for your opinion.
I’m sorry, that was mean, I shouldn’t have used sarcasm.
Dean had to vent about Hell, he went to HELL. If he had never talked about it (at Sam’s insistence) it would have eaten away at and killed him. But I doubt he’ll have the same motivation to hide his experiences from Sam, this time around. In season 4, Dean was still desperately trying to protect Sam, who would have been hurt to know the extent of the effect Hell had on Dean. They do need to have Sam address his time in Hell, and I’m hoping they do more of that in the next season, because he needs some healing. The woman he meets might actually help him find a way to free Dean. They might not become romantically involved at all until Dean is out (especially considering the time jump). I’m glad this won’t be the last season (according to CW) because I’m excited to see where it leads. ๐
hey beth right I would love to hear some of sams time in hell too. dean did it in season 4 why not sam too.
All I concern is about Cas and Bobby.
I really want the producers and writers respect the characters and actors. I am sick of that the producers treat the characters expendable.
Bobby is dead, not much to worry about ๐
And Cas, well, they don’t know what to do with him, it seems. You can’t expect the writers to find a role for every secondary character in every season, I guess.
It has nothing to do with respect to the actors.
I’m sure they’ll weave his story into the plot in a relevant and elegant manner. ๐ We just have to trust that the writers and Mr. Carver know and love the show like we do.
“[quote]Bobby is dead, not much to worry about ๐ [/quote]
Oh, you hurt me. ;( Joke. But you really hurt me.
If the writers concentrate on the consistency, every secondary character in every season has their own role. It’s beyond what I expect or not. Now season 8, and before long ago, the writers should ‘follow’ the plots and characters. Ask Stephen King. (I mean his book ‘On Writing’)
But their(writers) obsessions for ‘surprising story’ twisted the characters and consistency. Why Anna was suddenly changed as a badass who forgot Sam and Dean saved her life? Why Castiel saved Lisa for Dean but broke Sam’s wall? What is for Daphne?? Is their any consistency? Did these make sense? Roles for secondary characters. It’s about writers can keep the consistency. Not about writers generous attitude. ๐
A good character is made of writers’ skills but also is developed by actors ones. Writers can kill the characters, and it’s on their hand, I know. But. “Just because you can do what you want doesn’t mean that you get to do whatever you want.” Ben Edlund said that.
We had Bobby for 7 Seasons and not once did I think his time had expired. No character’s time expires if the writers put in effort to make them great.
Please let me hug you. I love you.
So true!
Bobby can still come back. If the others came back multiple times why not him? The boys need Bobby to stay sane.
It can be written well.
And bring back Gabe if you’re at it!
Getting too warm here from the weather plus the flamers! :sigh:
ALL THE HUGS! I miss Bobby so much. I can’t even look at gifs of him without getting sad. I think the first time I go back and watch ‘weekend at Bobby’s’ I am going to cry. I loved him so much.
On further consideration, I also don’t think the phrase “still framing up” his role means that they don’t know what to do with Castiel. He ties into a multitude of stories, at this point, including the over-arching angels and demons storyline, and Crowley’s vendetta. He has a lot of places to go and things to do this season, especially with the time jump in consideration. I think their still plotting out his role for the rest of the season, because they’re still [i]writing[/i] it. ๐ Actually, now I’m very excited.
I’m quite excited by this news and teaser. I’ve been critical of the show, but it seems to me now that there is a mission that involves all parties, it could be very enlightening. I have no qualms with the angel storyline. In fact, I thought it always had potential to be more than how they used it.
And remember the show has never shown its other ‘verses in detail. For example, both brothers’ visits to hell have never been explored, only implied. I would expect the same for Purgatory. To do something different would go against the show’s structure.
Perhaps it’s the Indiana Jones fan in me, but bring it on, show. And put Dean back in a fedora….and now a whip. ๐
[quote] And put Dean back in a fedora….and now a whip. ;)[/quote]
Melting.
Yeah! Give him a whip and a new machete and let him at them! Let him defeat his depression and come out fighting for himself and Sammy!
I am really disappointed by some of these. I am trying really hard not to pre judge, but I absolutely HATE time jumps. They are incredibly lame, lazy storytelling and they shortchange the viewer / reader. I now have to keep my fingers crossed that is a REALLY short time jump.
I also want it to be Sam that rescues Dean, but I don’t think there is anything here to indicate whether he does or doesn’t.
I absolutely do not want to see Dean ‘bonding’ with Cas while Sam is elsewhere, so I’m hoping the implied absence of Cas in first few eps means we aren’t getting that.
Like the idea of the Raiders theme, Crowley’s involvement, the lighter tone etc.
Overall mixed views, but I’m still hugely looking forward to s8.
Agree that Sam should be the one saving Dean. I’m afraid they’re missing this big chance. Again.
I don’t think Cas is in Purgatory at all. It seems there’s no big plans for him yet, but I wouldn’t mind seeing a bit more of Cas + Meg team.
I agree that they are missing an opportunity—yet again—to have Sam rescue Dean.
I’d love to see more Cas and Meg! They make an ADORABLE couple!
Cas and Dean already have bonded in Sam’s absence. They will continue to have their own moments, because they are friends. Why does that upset you? Castiel strives to keep *both* brothers safe and well and together. It’s thanks to Castiel that we have more brotherly moments to anticipate, since he broke Sam free from Lucifer’s cage. Dean couldn’t, and wouldn’t, so long as he had his promise to Sam to keep. Castiel knew that neither brother could live a full and happy life while the other was dead or in danger (or in this case eternal torment). He’s died time after time to unite the brothers, to save their world. If he has time alone with Dean, it doesn’t negate any of that. Also, he will always love Dean, and as season 7 showed us, Dean will always care for Cas in return. They’re family, by now, even with all the hurt and history between them. It’s a good thing, and it will make the show stronger.
[quote] Castiel strives to keep *both* brothers safe and well and together. [/quote]
Oh like when he broke the wall in Sam’s head? I’m sure that was for Sam’s own good though, right?
[quote]It’s thanks to Castiel that we have more brotherly moments to anticipate, since he broke Sam free from Lucifer’s cage. [/quote]
Only to benefit himself in the end because he knew Sam would play nice with Grandpappy in getting all the alphas and to find purgatory. Give it up, he ‘broke’ Sam out of hell, minus a soul, for his own selfish reasons.
[quote]he ‘broke’ Sam out of hell, minus a soul, for his own selfish reasons.[/quote]
Ding: [i]Wrong[/i]! It’s canon he didn’t leave Sam’s soul there on purpose. And that he went down there [i]at some risk to himself[/i] to save Sam. ๐
No. He rescued Sam from Hell and delivered him to Dean’s very door. He wanted Sam to return to Dean. He didn’t realize Sam’s soul was missing.
When he broke Sam’s wall, he was acting in his own interests, both power-hungry and desperate. It was something he has still not forgiven himself for. It IS something that Sam has forgiven him for, and something that Dean is working on forgiving him for.
Cas was never perfect: he also let Sam loose from lockdown to start the Apocalypse, before he decided to turn against Heaven. But that doesn’t negate the sacrifices he’s made specifically for the brothers or for Dean. Such as setting fire to Michael so that Dean could try to reach Sam. Or walking into what he thought was certain death so that Dean and Sam could try to rescue Adam. Or facing down an archangel so Dean could try to stop Sam from killing Lilith. Or even absorbing Sam’s psychic injury into himself, to contain it safely (and indefinitely) within his own grace, because he was so repentant and eager to put right his wrongs.
He even made them food especially so that they wouldn’t be affected by the Leviathans’ poison. You can’t tell me that’s not love! ๐
Exactly. I’d say Cas has done a lot of sacrificing. He rebelled, he lost powers, he once became human, killed other angels, and he died 2 times during the Apocalypse, all to help Sam and Dean take down Lucifer and keep humanity’s free will.
And in future verse “The End” Cas became human and always stuck by Dean’s side, even when Dean became cold after Sam said yes to Lucifer.
That verse doesn’t exist now, but the fact that Cas did that in another verse just shows his loyalty.
He’s done some really bad things, but what matters now is he started to mend it and he heavily regrets what he did. He knows what he did was wrong.
^ Yes! ๐
[quote]Dean couldn’t, and wouldn’t, so long as he had his promise to Sam to keep[/quote]
Well, Dean said he tried. You make it sound as if he wasn’t trying at all.
I certainly didn’t intend to imply that, because Sam was never far from his mind. Dean, if he hadn’t been constrained by his promise to Sam, would have thrown himself body and soul into that cage to take Sam’s place. Trust me, the only thing holding Dean back was the idea that Sam wouldn’t want him to break his promise, and that Sam would want him to live this apple pie life they’d always talked about. And that was tenuous, at best. I don’t believe Dean would have lasted even five years without breaking that promise, and actively trying to get Sammy out of hell. The idea of his brother suffering was driving him insane.
I am totally cool if Sam lets his badass brother and the badass angel save themselves while he acts like a badass himself to go save Kevin.
I would love a season of nothing but that, but oh well
These spoilers sound… Plausible. Guess I’m just wondering what Cas’s role will be. He was supposedly integral last season but we saw him in only a handful of eppys. Will that be Kevin’s route as well? Will we see CrazyCas or is that also done with? What about Meg vs Crowley? There are a lot of loose ends to work with. Plus Sam gets a love interest. Thats… New. *eye roll*
I was hoping for a lot more Dean and Cas in Purgatory. That friendship means more to me now than the brotherly bond the show has trashed so badly over the last two seasons and I see more chemistry between Jensen and Misha than J2 these days. I hope Misha will be back as a regular. I can’t wait to see what Dean runs into in Purgatory. ๐
So glad I’m not the only one who loves the chemistry between Jensen and Misha although I would like to see more of the same b/t Sam and Cas. Jared and Misha get along fabulously offset. Purgatory would have made for awesome storylines. Let’s hope the writers do it justice in the flashbacks. Dean and Cas… Reason I watch the show.
[quote]So glad I’m not the only one who loves the chemistry between Jensen and Misha although I would like to see more of the same b/t Sam and Cas. Jared and Misha get along fabulously offset. Purgatory would have made for awesome storylines. Let’s hope the writers do it justice in the flashbacks. Dean and Cas… Reason I watch the show.[/quote]
LOL, I remember Misha saying they stopped writing scenes between Sam and Cas because jared kept making him laugh during takes!
But yeah, Dea and Cas are the reason I watch too, along with a whole lot of other people. So I’m definitely good with Dean and CAs bonding in Purgatory and Cas riding in the Impala!
๐
But there’s no word about Cas being in Purgatory ๐ฎ
All evidence makes me think he’s not there.
Yeah, fans keep mentioning Cas down there with Dean, but he isn’t, I figured he wasn’t when I watching the finale when it aired. Don’t know why fans assumed he was down there with Dean. He went POOF at the finale
and how do you know that for sure? he probably just went looking for an exit or maybe he got caught by some monsters… why the hell would the writers put cas down there with dean if he was going to get out after 5 seconds? trust me, he is down there ๐
[quote]and how do you know that for sure? he probably just went looking for an exit or maybe he got caught by some monsters… why the hell would the writers put cas down there with dean if he was going to get out after 5 seconds? trust me, he is down there ;)[/quote]
If he was down there wouldn’t it be mentioned by now? I know many fans like yourself are wanting that, wouldn’t they take advantage of the exitment and tease you guys a bit? Besides that, an article came out a month ago with Robert saying that Crowley had a hand in taking Cas out. That same article mentioned a time jump.
Would you mind linking the article here? I don’t remember reading anything about that, and would appreciate some solid kind of indication either way.
Yeah, I know. Cas was gone at the end and Dean was alone. I’ve been puzzled by all the assumptions that Cas & Dean would be having adventures in Purgatory together.
[quote]Yeah, I know. Cas was gone at the end and Dean was alone. I’ve been puzzled by all the assumptions that Cas & Dean would be having adventures in Purgatory together.[/quote]
I was a little weirded out by all the fanfiction and fans arts done by fans already fantasizing of Dean and Cas in Purtgury. I was only weirded out because what I saw on my screen is Cas being taken out by other forces, meaning he isn’t down there to begin with.
I thought Cas zapped himself out (It was built to hold the Leviathans and monsters in, not angels) It never occurred to me that Crowley (or somebody) plucked Castiel out. Interesting idea.
A lot of us assume he’s there, because of his decision to go with Dean, and his inclusive language in the scene. He uses a lot of “we” phrases, after waking Dean and informing him where they are. “We’re more likely to get ripped to shreds,” seems like he’s counting himself [i]with[/i] Dean on this. If he’s no longer there, it’s not by his own volition, I believe, especially considering he offered to walk into an almost certain suicide mission with Dean just hours earlier. He also walked straight into death with Dean in “The End” and “Swan Song”. He was totally convinced he’d be dead after releasing the souls from Purgatory. All this leads me to believe he has not abandoned Dean. And since Crowley had a hand in putting Cas [i]into[/i] Purgatory (a perfect punishment for the angel, has a sense of poetry, very Crowley) it would make little sense to me for Crowley to pull him out so soon.
That is just my opinion, however. We’ll see what happens.
[quote]But there’s no word about Cas being in Purgatory ๐ฎ
All evidence makes me think he’s not there.[/quote]
Oh we’ll agree to differ! I think he’s there, they just don’t want to spoil it. ๐
[quote]I was hoping for a lot more Dean and Cas in Purgatory. That friendship means more to me now than the brotherly bond the show has trashed so badly over the last two seasons and I see more chemistry between Jensen and Misha than J2 these days. I hope Misha will be back as a regular. I can’t wait to see what Dean runs into in Purgatory. :-)[/quote]
It’s all subjective, but what keeps me watching is the chemistry between Sam and Dean and Jensen and Jared. Misha and Jensen don’t hold my interest. Again , subjective we all see things differently
Agree. Sam and Dean are the heart and soul of SPN.
Other characters are fine, and I sure love some of them (Bobby) but the bros are just the very core of the show.
[quote]Misha and Jensen don’t hold my interest. Again , subjective we all see things differently[/quote]
They certainly hold mine! ๐
They hold mine too! Very strongly, in fact. Oh heck. Whatever Misha does gets my attn. ๐
Hehe! Yeah, Misha turns my head too. Castiel is awesome.
Personally never been much of a fan of the brother bond. But I do have a close relationship with my siblings, so maybe that’s why? I’ve heard a lot of people online saying they wished they were close to their siblings anyway, so I’m wondering if maybe that’s why it’s so important to some fans that Sam and Dean are always super close physically and emotionally with no strife.
But yeah, brother bond is definitely not one of my reasons for watching. I can take or leave that. But Castiel certainly is. ^_^ He’s become required watching haha.
I have a weakness for BA angels so I was destined to love Cas. lol
i’m with you–sam and dean and jared and jensen are why i watch spn!
Totally right. I continue to see chemistry between all of them. They all work really well together, on and off screen, which is why I’m seriously praying that Team Free Will reunites, for good! The three of them, as characters and as actors, are stronger together than apart.
Me too!
I love the brother bond, but it’s always great to have Team Free Will to reunite and kick demon butt.
Agree. It’s Sam & Dean/Jared & Jensen for me or I stop watching.
Wow, this all sounds really lame. Thanks writers for wasting potential and being so completely uninspired and boring.
I think the writers are tired. A new crop of writers may have been more inspired? Perhaps they *want* the show to be cancelled? I can’t imagine why else they’d try and pass off such garbage.
Oh dear, this will be confusing. Um. Hi, Beth, I’m Beth, nice to meet you.
I don’t really agree. I think that the writers want this show to be the best it can be, and I’m pretty sure that they are thrilled to be working on Supernatural. They have a very demanding set of fans to work with, though. From what I’ve seen, Supernatural fans will nit-pick everything. It comes with being intelligent viewers.
Yeah nobody is ever going to be 100% happy.
People need to just go with the flow.
I can’t say this excites me at all. I have no use to see Kevin become an “integral part” of the show while Cas gets tossed to the side again. What’s up with flashbacks? Boring. Action that’s already happened. I want to see the action take place in the present. I want to see what happens in Purgatory, not what HAPPENED in Purgatory. They had wonderful story potential with Purgatory, but they’re going to throw it into the crapper because, God forbid, we have Dean and Sam apart for a couple of episodes. It would have been nice to see Dean and Cas in Purgatory for a few episodes, hopefully fighting together and repairing their friendship. Cas will be back a number of times? Misha has over 500,000 followers on Twitter and they should be capitalizing on his popularity. I have no faith in these writers or this show anymore. I hope Robert Singer just sucks at giving spoilers, because he sure dampened any enthusiasm I had for S8. Let’s hope Jeremy Carver can save this show because I fear that it’s been without oxygen for so long that it’s now brain dead.
The popularity of a certain actor should not influence the writers. They should write the scripts according to their idea of the show, not thinking of Twitter followers.
Misha may be a popular actor, but what if they can’t find a good role for him in the story? should Cas be pushed there no matter what, just because he’s popular?
Please.
[quote]The popularity of a certain actor should not influence the writers. They should write the scripts according to their idea of the show, not thinking of Twitter followers.
Misha may be a popular actor, but what if they can’t find a good role for him in the story? should Cas be pushed there no matter what, just because he’s popular?
Please.[/quote]
Man, do we agree or not?
Twitter followers, or populairy has nothing to do with the role of the character on the show. Cas is a favorite among many fans, and that is why the network promotes him, but to make the show about him? It’s not going to be like that, he is still on the show because he is a favorite, that a good thing. But I am sure the network understands that even though he is a favorite online by some fans, it doesn’t mean that he will hold the interest of more fans who watch the show but don’t involve themselves online. That is the difference. It’s about what catches a viewers eye, and Misha isn’t it. Popularity has nothing to do with it.
I’m still not sure if we agree or not, truth to be told.
It’s fine if Misha has fans, he’s popular and people love how he interacts with fans.
But he’s not a main character, and if they can’t find a good reason to have Cas in the show (that they can’t and sadly it’s been like that for a while) no matter how many fans he has, the writers should not feel pressed becaus of things like number of Twitter followers.
So I think we agree? ๐
[quote]I’m still not sure if we agree or not, truth to be told.
It’s fine if Misha has fans, he’s popular and people love how he interacts with fans.
But he’s not a main character, and if they can’t find a good reason to have Cas in the show (that they can’t and sadly it’s been like that for a while) no matter how many fans he has, the writers should not feel pressed becaus of things like number of Twitter followers.
So I think we agree? :D[/quote]
I think we do agree! It’s like that on many other shows I watched. There is always an underdog character that fans hold on to and love, who isn’t a main character. That character becomes popular, and because they are popular the network will use the actor to promote the show, but they know that said actor won’t be somebody who will keep the show on the air in the long run, because while they do have a cult following they don’t have a core, a large amount of actual following, so they will use the actor to promote the show, but they won’t give the character a chance to actually have a main plot. In the end this show was drivin with the brothers story, many fans, the fans that count in ratings, watch for that.
Yes, yes, we agree lol
Yes, that happens quite often, and I understand loving a secondary character. I’ve been there.
But you can’t seriously expect te writers to transform the whole show just because a character/actor is popular, and I’m afraid that’s what some fans want.
Maybe they should give Castiel a spin-off series, everybody would be happier.
‘the fans that count in ratings watch for that”
Seriously? So because someone is a Cas fan they don’t count in ratings? think again. There are more than enough fans that watch the show for other things. With only the brotherly bond fans there wouldn’t even be enough ratings to keep the show going. There are plenty of other fans. There are fans of monsters and demons (like my brother and, every single one of his friends) and they don’t give a shit about the brotherly bond. There are Cas fans, there are just Dean fans and just Sam fans. There are fans that watch it for all the characters and love everyone. If only the fans that watched it for the brotherly bond counted in the ratiings the show would of been dropped a long time ago.
Thank you. Castiel’s fans, who are simply watching for Castiel, are as important to the community as any others. They are just as important as the fans who watch only for the brothers. They all have equal voice. They all matter.
[quote]It’s about what catches a viewers eye, and Misha isn’t it. [/quote]
LOL, he catches my eye. Maybe you should stop posting opinion as fact? Of course the show should cash in on his popularity. They’d be crazy not to. ๐
[quote][quote]It’s about what catches a viewers eye, and Misha isn’t it. [/quote]
LOL, he catches my eye. Maybe you should stop posting opinion as fact? Of course the show should cash in on his popularity. They’d be crazy not to. ;-)[/quote]
It’s my opinion though, can’t help if it comes of as fact, maybe because it is fact? No, but honestly, they do use Misha to promote the show, but they don’t use him excessively on the show where he has an actual storyline. He has a cult following, but not that much of a strong following where he is able to keep the show afloat. Ratings says otherwise.
[quote]
It’s my opinion though, can’t help if it comes of as fact, maybe because it is fact?[/quote]
LOL, since what catches one’s eye is purely subjective then no, actually it can’t be fact that Misha doesn’t catch the eye. Because he does catch the eye of many, many fans. So that means it is your purely subjective [i]opinion[/i] and not fact at all. ๐
[quote]Ratings says otherwise.[/quote]
LOL, ratings can be twisted to say anything! ๐
[quote][quote]
It’s my opinion though, can’t help if it comes of as fact, maybe because it is fact?[/quote]
LOL, since what catches one’s eye is purely subjective then no, actually it can’t be fact that Misha doesn’t catch the eye. Because he does catch the eye of many, many fans. So that means it is your purely subjective [i]opinion[/i] and not fact at all. ๐
[quote]Ratings says otherwise.[/quote]
LOL, ratings can be twisted to say anything! :-)[/quote]
But ratings is what counts for a show, especially a show on the CW. We will have to agree to disagree, I have seen this kind of stuff with other shows where fans want their favorite to always be front and center even though the show doesn’t revolve around said character. The network never budges though because they know if they turn the tables to a whole other direction, that will destroy a show. Cult following, or the core following? which one is more important to the SPN show?
[quote]But ratings is what counts for a show, especially a show on the CW. [/quote]
LOL, if ratings mattered the show wouldn’t have been renewed! Anyway it’s been doing well, relatively speaking to other CW shows. ๐
[quote]I have seen this kind of stuff with other shows where fans want their favorite to always be front and center [/quote]
LOL, like you do, you mean… ๐
[quote] The network never budges though[/quote]
Then why are you so worried about Misha being back? ๐
[quote][quote]But ratings is what counts for a show, especially a show on the CW. [/quote]
LOL, if ratings mattered the show wouldn’t have been renewed! Anyway it’s been doing well, relatively speaking to other CW shows. ๐
[quote]I have seen this kind of stuff with other shows where fans want their favorite to always be front and center [/quote]
LOL, like you do, you mean… ๐
[quote] The network never budges though[/quote]
Then why are you so worried about Misha being back? ;-)[/quote]
you seem confused with my posts. I never said I was worried about Misha being back. Did I say that? I don’t think I did. I am saying he is a favorite, he has a cult following, but those cult following don’t matter because they are not the ones that count. I mean they took Cas out of season 7 for the majority and the ratings did fine. That’s why it is being renewed because the ratings have been at a point where CW likes the numbers.
[quote]
LOL, nope it isn’t me who is confused! ๐
[quote][quote]
LOL, nope it isn’t me who is confused! :-)[/quote]
Lol, I can’t help but find your posts cute. But I am so not confused, probably a little perturbed by your smiley faces haha, but not confused. I know exactly what I am saying. You can disagree all you want though.
I agree with Love and Sage, I believe.
I loved Castiel’s introduction and his use in Season 4. I thought he was great.
I feel he was overused in Season 5. It felt like they included him in episodes simply because they had a certain number of episodes to fulfill. He didn’t seem to have much purpose in many Season 5 episodes. I’m not a huge fan of Season 5. I also felt they pushed things with his character a bit (ie, Dean calling him a brother, Cas saying Sam was his friend). None of that stuff tracked with me because it wasn’t supported by the writing. When did Cas begin to think of Sam as a friend? Why did Dean consider him a brother? Huh? And I write that as a Cas can.
I thought he was appropriately used in Season 6. He wasn’t there often but when he dud show up, he seemed to have a purpose. For me, Cas was without direction in Season 5. In Season 6, he had direction and purpose.
In Season 7, he was okay. I thought he was going to be the big bad, but then he “died.” I liked the scene of him getting his memories back. I hated transferring the crazy only because the writers had thus far neglected Sam’s story so badly that I was sad it never had much impact on Sam. I absolutely hated doofus Castiel. I don’t like that guy at all. He was not funny or amusing. He was plain annoying so if Cas returns, hopefully, it’s not in that mindset.
I can take or leave Cas. He’s not essential to my enjoyment of the show. For me, the brotherly bond is essential. They don’t need to be in every single scene together but I watch for their relationship. This show has been low on brotherly moments since Season 4 when Kripke decided to annihilate the relationship. To me, J2 still have great chemistry as demonstrated in that clown episode and HCW. That is the draw for most of the viewers. I do think the online audience is different from the regular viewing audience. That’s why I believe the majority of viewers love the brothers and the show, in general.
[quote]You can disagree all you want though.[/quote]
Why yes I can! ๐
People have to remember SPN is an aging show on the CW network and the last 2 seasons have been considered shaky. Plus the 1 million fans in US watching CW does not account for worldwide fans.
Whether or not the Misha/Cas fans have helped is hard to tell at this point.
Either way, I’m happy he’s around and believe there is still story there.
No whatever let him die [i]again[/i] and have the boys go through the loss of another close one (not to mention best friend on Dean’s part- THEY ARE BEST FRIENDS SO JUST SHUT YOUR CAKE HOLE i know what you’re thinking)
Or they could just, you know, work out his freaking storyline a bit better like through s4 and s5 was absolutely fantastic and towards the end of s6 too.
They problem right now is that they’re not using the potential they have with Castiel and that’s too bad. I hope they do that for s8!
Edited by Alice – Sorry, only one rule is getting enforced on this thread, and it’s don’t attack or label other posters. The issue to be discussed here is season 8 spoilers. I’m not counting posts against anyone right now, I’ll just issue a friendly reminder. Thanks.
[quote] They should write the scripts according to their idea of the show[/quote]
So if their idea of the show includes Misha, then you’ll have no problem with it, yes? And you’ll support that? Only from your comments on here you have quite a few issues with what seems to be their idea of the show, including the angels coming back and Cas being in it… but LOL, at the same time you think they should write according to their idea of the show! ๐
[quote][quote] They should write the scripts according to their idea of the show[/quote]
So if their idea of the show includes Misha, then you’ll have no problem with it, yes? And you’ll support that? Only from your comments on here you have quite a few issues with what seems to be their idea of the show, including the angels coming back and Cas being in it… but LOL, at the same time you think they should write according to their idea of the show! :-)[/quote]
No, I won’t watch it, because my intrest is Sam and Dean. If the writers chose to go the route of making season 8 about Cas, then I won’t support that, I won’t be on here or elsewhere bitching about it, because whats done is done, they want the story to be about Cas, let it be about Cas, why should I waste my breath and time arguing against it? I just will change the channel. But since the network’s vision is about the connection between the brothers, I will watch still. It’s you that is pressed with the spoilers or feeling threatened. I mean, the writers have already written for the few episodes of season 8, whats done is done, as fans we aren’t going to be the ones to let them do re writes, they already have the story mapped out.
Oh my god just go back and watch your season 1 dvd.
TV shows need character growth and development and progress and JESUS CHRIST don’t you have side characters in your life? Like your friends? Lol.
(Edited by Alice – Please, this is clearly attacking other posters. We don’t do that here. People are allowed to give their opinions, positive or negative. We prefer a constructive tone, but hey, sometimes opinions get heated. They always do when spoilers start breaking like this. This is a warning. Next post like this gets edited.)
[quote]Oh my god just go back and watch your season 1 dvd.
TV shows need character growth and development and progress and JESUS CHRIST don’t you have side characters in your life? Like your friends? Lol.
The point is, I’m so freaking tired of extremities like you who are so stuck up on Sam and Dean, Dean and Sam, they’re all that matters, everyone else can go home!
I can’t even get my feelings out properly because I’m torn between wanting to punch you all in the face and headdesking because JKHSDKJFHSGKJJFDGHKJFDGHKJDFG GIVE ME A BREAK[/quote]
I am a fan just like you posting on a website where comments and opeinons are accepted. Trying to shut down my opinion so yours is the only one heard? You can say the same for Katie, who is also possibly an extremitie, who feels the need to comment on every body not agreeing with her side.
You can post and express what you want, and I will do the same, not trying to shut down any fans, and you shouldn’t be trying to do the same either. Not cool. Besides my post was respectful and giving my view on the matter, while you are resorting to insults.
[quote]It’s you that is pressed with the spoilers or feeling threatened. [/quote]
Eh, what are you even on about? I’m over the moon with the spoilers! Angels and more Cas in S8, yay! It’s you that’s complaining, LOL!
I am happy with the spoiler too, no disagreement there, but you are doing just as much complaining too LOL
Actually, if they ever change the most basic thing about SPN, that is, Sam and Dean as main characters and their brotherly love, I really hope they just change the name of the show ๐ because that sure wouldn’t be SPN.
But I don’t think they’re crazy enough to do something like that.
Yes?
I think the angels storyline is overdone. And I think Castiel has been in the show a bit longer than expected for the sole reason of Misha’s fans.
That I don’t like that they’re recycling the angels vs Demons trope doesn’t mean I think they should start listening to every “suggestion” fans make, or that they should base the plot of the show on the popularity of an actor.
I don’t see the contradiction. I was perfectly fine with Cas back in season 4 and 5. Those seasons are gone and the show should move on.
I’m not fighting over this anymore, it’s pointless. YOu want to see Misha/Cas no matter what. I don’t see the need. Period.
[quote]Yes?
I think the angels storyline is overdone. And I think Castiel has been in the show a bit longer than expected for the sole reason of Misha’s fans. [/quote]
So? Jensen is there for Jensen’s fans and Jared is there for Jared’s fans. If you get your fanservice, why shouldn’t Misha’s fans? ๐
[quote]the show should move on.[/quote]
Bur lemme guessรขโฌยฆ you’d be A-OK with it doing a rinse-repeat of S1-3? ๐
Seems like it’s moving on with Cas. ๐
(Edited by Alice – sorry, can’t label other posters. I’ll allow the rest of the comment though).
Cas was in what? 5 episodes last season? And the spoilers for season 8 sounds like that’s what’s happening again.
So I don’t know what you’re talking about.
[quote](Edited by Alice – sorry, can’t label other posters. I’ll allow the rest of the comment though).
Cas was in what? 5 episodes last season? And the spoilers for season 8 sounds like that’s what’s happening again. [/quote]
LOL, we’ll see! Amazing how you all keep ranting on about how he took over when he was only in five episodes!
agreed. sorry, but i’m tired of the angel storyline and cas. but that’s just my opinion…
(Edited by Alice) I’ve gotten complaints, and I have to agree. This is just an attack on Misha, and honestly, it isn’t very fair. I’ve met Misha many times and despite his offbeat sense of humor, he is a compassionate humanitarian and overall very decent guy. Say what you want about angel story lines and Castiel, but let’s leave Misha out of it.
This entire thread will be unpublished.
This video had only 42 views, when I watched it, just now. It encourages people to repeatedly vote for Misha in a Twitter contest (one that allowed repeat voting) — just like a bunch of people on Tumblr are encouraging everyone to go vote for Jensen in the Portal Awards ([url]http://airlockalpha.com/specials/portal-awards-2012.html[/url]). The poster of the above video wasn’t even doing it because she was a Misha fanatic, she said she was doing it to (playfully?) spite someone (I assume a friend. I hope a friend) who was voting for the opposition. It was a little obnoxious, the way most of these things are. Sorry, what was the point?
I would like to point out that I [b]did not[/b] attack Misha in any way and that I was speaking about his twitter followers. I feel you are unjustly characterizing my comment as an attack on Misha, Alice. I have never said anything negative about him– only Castiel.
Some of us, including Alice, read it as an attack. I am very glad you didn’t mean it that way, however. ๐
Hah, you think the actual tv writers are dumber than the fanfiction writers and can’t think up a story for Castiel?
Please.
I bet Ben Edlund could think up a lot of different stories for Cas. I’m thinking the real problem area is Sam and Dean. They haven’t had much of any story the past few seasons and have been overshadowed by the other characters. They’re the ones that feel like they’ve been pushed in there no matter what with no good roles in the story. (my opinion, obviously)
Well, then it’s obvious that Carver et al should focus on Sam and Dean and writing complex, intricate storylines for them, since they’re the main characters, huh? Glad you agree.
The plot circulates around them, and how they deal. But, much like House MD, which was all about House, it can get really stifling if it becomes formulaic, and if the other characters we love are discarded. House lost a lot of viewers and a lot of interest when the writers tried to stick to the hospital-oriented, case-by-case plot lines, at the expense of true character growth and real-world repercussions. Some of their best episodes, recently, were the ones that broke formula (such as House in the mental ward, or in jail, or on a suicidal binge, completely outside of the hospital). That just happens to long-running shows. It’s a struggle to keep things fresh and vigorous, especially with a small cast. There’s a reason no other tv show has only two regulars. Also, Jared and Jensen are exhausted, and would like to have the “gang back together” (Nashcon 2012).
Yeah, duh, I do think that, except I also think there’s three main characters and they need to continue to focus on Castiel as well. Though you obviously don’t see it that way, and it seems like you don’t see the last seasons as primarily telling Cas’ story since you’re claiming he doesn’t have one. We’re on opposite sides of the spectrum here.
I also think Castiel is a third main character, by this point, and should be treated accordingly. ๐
Writing a show =/= writing fanfiction. Please, this is obvious, and it’s a bit embarrassiing that you’re comparing both.
Sam and Dean are not being [i]pushed in there[/i], they are the show! No Sam+Dean = no SPN!
I agree, they are not being forced into anything, they are the principle characters of the show. Supernatural would definitely not exist without them. I wouldn’t want it to. I don’t know any people who would (though I see some on the internet, and think they’re crazy). ๐
It’s not comparing them. If fanfiction writers, who are not professional writers in general, can come up with stories, then professional writers should be able to. It’s ridiculous to act like paid writers shouldn’t be expected to come up with decent stories.
And when one or both brothers spend half their time standing around, or without much of any story arc, it does feel like they’re there for no good reason, or like it’s only the behind the scenes actor contracts keeping them both. Also I always thought the show was about more than just two guys, ie finding dad in season one. So, hey, you have your interpretation, and I have mine.
I agree with the above post, Restless. ๐
Without Sam and Dean there is no show.
I completely disagree that Sam and Dean are the ones who feel pushed into the story. As Sage said, they ARE the story.
For me, the 2nd half of Season 6 and all of Season 7 had NO direction. That’s the problem. The MOA was a bad, mostly uninteresting tale. Soulless Sam worked (for me) b/c it was about the brothers. The MOA was never interesting. However, Season 6 did setup a potentially wonderful story/arc for Sam that Sera squandered away due to a lack of imagination or creativity or something. There was no setup for Dean, but they could have actually done something w/his 15-episode emotional arc. Again, a lack of imagination and/or creativity stifled that story.
If I can find good, compelling fanfic re: Sam and Dean, then Sam and Dean aren’t the problems. And they most certainly aren’t being shoehorned into their own show!
I’m one of those people who believe a character will never get old and there’s always story out there if the writers are willing to write it.
I agree with CP!
I think they are sometimes scared of Castiel. I think he is a problem for them because he has too many fans for them to kill, but there are a loud portion of fans who want him dead, like they wanted Bela dead, and some other girls on the show dead, for threatening the ‘brother bond’. (Hey, Ruby could’ve easily gone the other way and known nothing about Lilith- she could still be hanging around) It’s not that they can’t find a role for him (or for the other dead girls on the show). It’s that they tend to write the show like Bill Clinton served his presidency-anxiously hovering over what ‘the polls’ are saying. But in this case, the writers just can’t win. They will always piss someone off. The fans that like Cas a lot are upset because the writers mess around with what they consider their favorite character- somebody that to them is as important as Sam and Dean. The fans that hate Cas are extremely annoyed because he’s just another irritation in the way of Sam and Dean, and every other time they have ordered the writers to pull the trigger on an irritation (like Bela, or Ruby) they have done it. But the writers won’t do it this time, and that is NOT COOL. So everybody loses, and everyone is pissed.
“He’s just another irritant in the way of Sam and Dean.”
why does he have to be in the way? Why can’t Sam, Dean and Cas all just hunt together? i really don’t get it. i see Sam and Dean fans and Cas fans why can’t we like them all they are ALL important to the show. Just because Dean spends time with someone other than Sam once in awhile, or vice versa, doesn’t mean that their brotherly bond is fucked up! It seems to me like a lot of Sam and Dean fans think that they arent’ allowed to have anyone else and that is ridiculous. I love Sam, Dean, AND Cas all to death. It wouldn’t be the same show without their brotherly bond but it also wouldn’t be the same without Castiel.
I don’t personally think they made Ruby evil because the fans wanted her dead, I think that was [b]good writing[/b].
It’s true the writers can’t win, can’t please everybody. But I also think they’re pretty aware of that, and put the story first. I hope that’s the case, anyway. Because if they are putting the story first, it’s going to be good, whether or not we ‘like’ the end result. Heck, I didn’t ‘like’ Ana Karenina, but it’s still good literature!
I hated Bela, I have no problem with Castiel.
The flaw in the argument is always making broad statements about what ‘fans’ want. It must be very difficult for Show to figure it out. Every group claims they speak for the ‘majority’ yet there is no real data to prove where ‘the majority’ actually lies.
Good point. ๐
I’m so excited by this, sounds incredible! A cool quest for them. Purgatory flashbacks, Sam flashbacks. More Kevin and Crowley!!! Love that!
I really wish they would have had Sam and Dean spend some time apart. It’s a shame, I’d love to see the growth, rather than through flashbacks. OH well.
Can’t wait for more of my angel Cas, though!
Oh Bob Singer, will you guys ever learn?
You should’ve let Sam rescue Dean.
People are sick to death of the angel storyline.
Your show will tank if you don’t wise up.
[quote]
People are sick to death of the angel storyline.
[/quote]
LOL, nope. Even on here a whole bunch of posts are cheering it and cheering for more Cas. ๐
Judging on what i’m seeing tonight, Cas fans want more angels, it seems, but Cas fans don’t make the largest part of SPN followers.
We had 2 (and a half) seasons full of angels, and yeah, it’s kind of overused now.
And it’s strictly fans of Castiel who would enjoy a plotline that has angels in it? I know you said ‘judging on what I’m seeing tonight’ but those are SOME people, SOME Castiel fans; and the next half of your sentence implies that you know what every one of the few million SPN fans likes and wants to see. Unless we get a poll or something going that can account for every single SPN fan, I’m hesitant to say that anyone is the majority/minority here.
[quote]
We had 2 (and a half) seasons full of angels, and yeah, it’s kind of overused now.[/quote]
LOL, in [i]your[/i] opinionรขโฌยฆ ๐
Well, yes, I think that’s an understatement ๐
I always speak MY opinion.
But once again, plenty of people share that opinion.
But many (like me) also disagree. I think she minded the word ‘we’. I also used that unfortunate pronoun earlier. Everyone has a valid opinion, but there will always be dissent. ๐
[quote]Judging on what i’m seeing tonight, Cas fans want more angels, it seems, but Cas fans don’t make the largest part of SPN followers.
We had 2 (and a half) seasons full of angels, and yeah, it’s kind of overused now.[/quote]
I’m a Dean fan. I’d love more Cas.
I have friends who are big Sam fans and brotherly bond fans who like Cas and want him around and don’t mind the angels as the story hasn’t been completely closed.
It’s not all Cas fans.
We’ve also had 7 seasons of MOTW episodes and yet I’m pretty sure we’ll still have lots more in S8, even if I got as tired of them in S7 as you may be of the angel storyline. Angels are part of the show just as demons and other monsters… I don’t think it would be realistic for them to completely disappear with the state Heaven seems to be in and with the “word of God” being a main plot next season. Plus, they have already stated that it won’t be an apocalypse kind of plot, so what about wait and see maybe?
Why not? They were gone from the earth for thousands of years before S4. They can be gone from the earth again.
I think Ally is rightfully pointing out that circumstances are different now, in Heaven, in Hell, and on Earth, than they were before the angels were introduced. It would not make a lot of sense to the continuity of the show to simply drop them. Especially considering the major plot points of the next season. But angels are on the decline, due to anarchy and death. In the universe shown in “The End,” many of the angels had given up and left. But some, like Castiel, chose to stay and become mortal in the fight for humanity. So, there will always be residual fallout from the angel-arc. It’s nice that Supernatural is seeing it to completion.
How would it impact continuity if the angels disappeared?
Again, I like Castiel, but I think it’s a little much to imply that the show [i]needs [/i]angels for the sake of continuity. We could just learn that Cas and his angel buddies are in Heaven doing what they do. It’s not difficult.
It would impact continuity, because, at this point in time, not all the angels are gone, and many of them hold a grudge against humanity. (Hester, for instance, believed it was specifically Dean’s fault that Cas had fallen, gone crazy, and slaughtered their brethren.) Since angels are extremely powerful, and there are some still ‘in hiding’, it wouldn’t make sense to drop them entirely. Also, Heaven has been established as an actual place in the Supernatural universe, much like Hell and Purgatory. Imagine, a beautiful place filled with human souls, ripe for the picking, and no angels left to guard them. Demons are going to be all over that, and there will be significant fallout, I’m sure. So, the angels and demons mythos is far from done. ๐ I’m sure things will eventually settle down back to Earth, though, if it’s any comfort.
Hahaha – touche!
I have no problem w/Castiel, but I can take him or leave him. His presence is not necessary for me to enjoy the show. Good writing is, of which Season 7 had few instances.
and some are ready for cas and the angels to move on, like me. i want to see sam and dean reconnect and repair their bond from the damage done since s4….but i guess we’ll all have to agree to disagree….i
So you’d be equally as happy if they got rid of Castiel as long as there’s more angels?
No, but it would still make more sense than if they dropped it altogether. Continuity is important.
So true, so true. (Different Beth, sorry, how confusing!)
“People are sick to death of the angel storyline.”
what people? speak for yourself and not for the entire fandom, thanks.
[quote]”People are sick to death of the angel storyline.”
what people? speak for yourself and not for the entire fandom, thanks.[/quote]
This! o/
and not all of spn fandom wants cas and the angels back….
I sure don’t
No one was contradicting that, really; they were only pointing out that no one can or should try to speak for an entire fandom. It’s pretty impossible to figure out who the majority and minority are without doing some heavy duty researching/polling js.
k…..sorry, but that’s smth that bugs me. b/c i have my own opinion of why i love spn…and it’s not for cas or the angels or really anyone else..i’m all for sam/dean!! always have been since s1 until the last day it airs…
end of day, we’re all entitled to our opinions and are allowed to express them respectfully…
[quote]k…..sorry, but that’s smth that bugs me. b/c i have my own opinion of why i love spn…and it’s not for cas or the angels or really anyone else..i’m all for sam/dean!! always have been since s1 until the last day it airs…
end of day, we’re all entitled to our opinions and are allowed to express them respectfully…[/quote]
That is what bugs me too. I respond and give insight in to WHAT I THINK. I never try to shut down other people’s opinion, and some fans here are trying to do just that. It doesn’t matter though does it? you can’t stop fans from saying they just want Sam and Dean by thinking we are going to be listened too. Whatever is going to happen at the start of season 8 has already been written, we are either going to love it or hate it, but don’t try and shut people from speaking out because you don’t want sam and Dean fans heard. There is plenty of posts here I would love to disagree with and agrue with, but I can’t do that because everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I share the frustrations but also ask for patience. This thread isn’t the norm that we usually have with our discussions. There are several names tonight I’ve never seen before. A lot of comments are flying back and forth at once and things have gotten a wee bit crazy. Apparently, the subject matter is pushing a ton of buttons! I’m very stunned to see this many responses at once.
Thank you for sharing your opinions and from what I’ve read, they’ve been valid. I’m giving latitude for others as well though given the circumstances. If anyone is out of line, I’ll give a warning or edit the post.
Edited by Alice – Okay, the exchange is getting a little heated here. No worries, neither of you are in trouble, but I will take down the post. I’m just accepting that tempers are high right now.
I don’t think no one here said the contrary… They just asked for those opinions to not be generalized like it’s everyone’s opinions when it’s not. ๐
[quote]and not all of spn fandom wants cas and the angels back….[/quote]
And not all of spn fandom wants them gone. Budda-bing. That’s why the show seems to be aiming to get some balance and give all the different fan groups what they want. Seems like a sensible policy to me.
[quote][quote]”People are sick to death of the angel storyline.”
what people? speak for yourself and not for the entire fandom, thanks.[/quote]
This! o/[/quote]
A lot of us don’t want the angels back. Let’s see, Castiel’s return had really low ratings. What does that tell you? Cas has no impact on Supernatural’s ratings. I, along with many other fans of this show, do not want the angels storyline again.
It may have had low ratings, but it got some great reviews! AfterElton wrote one, and called the trenchcoat scene an act of true love, and compared their drama to Shakespeare’s Sonnet #35. (Here’s the link:[url]http://www.afterelton.com/tv/recaps/supernatural/717?page=0%2C6[/url].)
I think the ratings had more to do with an over-all lack-luster season and some bad timing than anything. Several people, myself included, who had missed the couple of episodes prior due to exams gearing up at university, tuned in specifically for Cas’ return (and loved it). Unfortunately, ratings are not the best measure of quality, or interest. Shows like Firefly and Star Trek have infiltrated and changed our culture, but both were cancelled because they didn’t make enough financial return to excuse their low ratings. :/ But look at all the popular interest they kicked up! Game-changers. A lot like Supernatural, the Little Show That Could. Castiel remains a very popular character, with a lot of potential. I trust that Carver and Co. will put him to good use. ๐
Edited by Alice – Again, no bashing other posters.
Edited By Alice – no bashing other posters.
I don’t but I remember reading that they did not intend for this to be the last season. Let me see if I can find the link. Here it is!
[url]http://www.wetpaint.com/network/articles/will-season-8-be-the-end-for-supernatural-cw-president-mark-pedowitz-weighs-in[/url]
Of course, nothing’s concrete until the actual pickups are made, but it’s super nice knowing that the CW is finally behind Supernatural
[quote]Let’s see, Castiel’s return had really low ratings. [/quote]
Yes, on the same night as the Hunger Games premiered. The fourth-biggest premier in movie history, and a night when ratings were down across the board.
[quote]Cas has no impact on Supernatural’s ratings. [/quote]
Then he isn’t going to hurt them any more than they already have been hurt, is he?
[quote]
People are sick to death of the angel storyline.
Your show will tank if you don’t wise up.[/quote]
LOL NOPE. I am a person, I am not sick of the angel storyline. If they continue with it, and some fans stop watching, other fans will take their place who love the angel story. ๐ Just that simple.
There’s a lot of negatibity today. Wow.
Someone please explain me what happened here.
Very disappointing spoilers. I thought the set up for season 8 was great. Purgatory sounded so interesting and had a lot of cool potential to be explored. I was excited at the idea of Dean and Cas fighting there and rebuilding their friendship. Sam could have had a really cool storyline too working hard to find a way to get his brother back and making new friends and allies in the process, showing us his cleverness and resourcefulness. Instead it seems like the producers believe most Supernatural fans will boycott the show if Sam and Dean aren’t joined a the hip and god forbid are *gasps* apart for a couple of episodes. So instead we get a lot of wasted dramatic potential and the same old same old served up. I am more and more wishing this show had been cancelled in season 5. That said, I hope my misgivings are proven wrong, and we end up with an enjoyable season regardless.
Having the boys reunited within a few episodes is just lazy. It’s the same thing that we have seen over and over again. Having them separated for a while would be fresh and give some room for character development and growth. And yes, Castiel is a part of the show; you can’t take a character who’s been a very important part of the show and treat him so poorly. Having him in Purgatory with Dean would strengthen both of their characters. And with Sam and Dean apart for a while won’t negate or weaken the relationship that they have. If anything, it will make their reunion that more meaningful.
Gotta agree with you here. I was going to comment along the same vein, but you’ve done it for me so.
Where I’d been disappointed with season 7 for so long (despite a few really good episodes) the finale raised my hopes super high because of the awesome place it left everyone, and what I hoped it all meant for season 8. Sigh. I suppose we shall see what we shall see.
The show survived for three years without Castiel (And most of last year too!) it can survive without him again. The only two people the show cannot survive without are Sam and Dean Winchester.
The three years prior to Castiel’s introduction seem sort of irrelevant to the point, but ultimately I agree that the show would survive without him. I think it would suffer a lot without him though. It would be a sad loss of quality. ๐ Also, many fans wouldn’t continue to watch, which would be sad (as sad as the loss of any other fans from the show).
However, the show will always be primarily about Sam and Dean. So much so, that I don’t personally understand why it’s an issue of contention. I haven’t seen one person suggest a permanent separation, because almost everyone loves Sam and Dean and their story. ๐
forgive me, but what is “raiders of the lost ark” about? i’ve never seen it. thanks!
Shelley, please go watch that movie, it’s really awesome! ๐
Watch it, definitely! I love the Indiana Jones movies. Classics! ๐
this season is gonna suck they always have amazing plots and they always ruin it *sigh*
This happens every year when Comic Con news comes out. I have found usually I just have to let the sparks fly. I understand, it’s a lot of restlessness and we’re being spoon fed information. A lot of what was said here could mean anything though. These maybe listed as spoilers, but they’re really teasers.
I have one big rule here. All opinions are welcome, but please be civil and respectful of other posters. Sam fans, Dean fans, Cas fans, it doesn’t matter. We’re all Supernatural fans and are allowed to love the show in different ways.
Thank you for your patience and moderation. ๐ Thanks also for the spoilers. It’s a long hiatus, and we’re all a little rabid for intel. ๐
Aw, I was hoping for more time in Purgatory, but flashbacks could be cool…
I’m STOKED we get more Cas, though. Here’s hoping he’s in a lot of episodes! (I missed him like crazy last season – I love the brothers, but Cas is my favorite. ^_^)
[quote]Having the boys reunited within a few episodes is just lazy. It’s the same thing that we have seen over and over again. Having them separated for a while would be fresh and give some room for character development and growth. And yes, Castiel is a part of the show; you can’t take a character who’s been a very important part of the show and treat him so poorly. Having him in Purgatory with Dean would strengthen both of their characters. And with Sam and Dean apart for a while won’t negate or weaken the relationship that they have. If anything, it will make their reunion that more meaningful.[/quote]
I concur with all of THIS. ‘Nuff said.
If jeremy carver won’t save this show after two horrible seasons then no one can and I hope to god season 8 will be the last otherwise it will be just sad to watch such an amazing show going downhill and die.
Alice, can you PLEASE try to get all the information you can from Jared, Jensen and Jeremy about purgatory? Because most of us were really exciting about this storyline and just the fact that we will only see it on flashbacks is already a buzzkill. But can you try to know if it will be just a couple of flashbacks or maybe something more and we will actually get to see some Dean and Cas purgatory adventures.
Yeah, I’m with this request. I feel a little awkward asking to have my own questions asked, but would you please do this? It’d be very much appreciated to have more of an idea of what’s going to happen with Purgatory and Castiel!
Castiel’s not even in purgatory, is he? He zapped away.
[quote]Castiel’s not even in purgatory, is he? He zapped away.[/quote]
Many fans are assuming he is there, but he did zap away, indicating somebody forced him out of there. There was an article by Robert Singer that said Crowley might have had a hand in taking Cas from Purgatory.
Do you know where Singer said that?
The idea of Crowley somehow removing Cas is very interesting to me but I don’t think he’d have time to do it. But then again we have no clue how much time passed between Dick exploding and Cas waking Dean up in Purgatory.
My interpretation was that Cas fluttered of somewhere to find shelter but I’d be equally interested in Crowley forcing him out.
Just out of curiosity, could you link to this article? I must have missed it when it came out, I remember a time skip mention but nothing about Crowley.
[quote]Just out of curiosity, could you link to this article? I must have missed it when it came out, I remember a time skip mention but nothing about Crowley.[/quote]
In the quote it was implied Crowley might have had a hand in sending Cas to Purgatory with Dean. It wasn’t at all hinted that he might have pulled Cas out of Purgatory.
[quote][quote]Just out of curiosity, could you link to this article? I must have missed it when it came out, I remember a time skip mention but nothing about Crowley.[/quote]
In the quote it was implied Crowley might have had a hand in sending Cas to Purgatory with Dean. It wasn’t at all hinted that he might have pulled Cas out of Purgatory.[/quote]
OH, that! Thanks, I was getting really confused. I believe Mark Shepard said something about that at one point but I didn’t know Singer had said something too.
I’ll do what I can but I’m sure it’ll come up from others as well. After all, you don’t leave one of your main characters in Purgatory and not talk about it!
I’m always stoked for more Cas & angels! also I want to see what’s going on with Crowley lately and Hell’s hierarchy. :’)
I don’t care about anything but that the Winchesters have to be the movers of their world, period. I’m so sick to death of the Winchesters not being the prime movers in their story for 4 years.
It must be Dean or Sam to get Dean out of Purgatory, NOT Cas or some new monster or something.
It must be Dean and Sam who save the world, hell and heaven for humans, angels and demons, period. NOT Cas, Crowley, Kevin or some new character. PERIOD.
The rest can take a flying leap.
I hope its Sam that saves Dean. Hoping is good.
[quote]I don’t care about anything but that the Winchesters have to be the movers of their world, period. I’m so sick to death of the Winchesters not being the prime movers in their story for 4 years.
It must be Dean or Sam to get Dean out of Purgatory, NOT Cas or some new monster or something.
It must be Dean and Sam who save the world, hell and heaven for humans, angels and demons, period. NOT Cas, Crowley, Kevin or some new character. PERIOD.
The rest can take a flying leap.[/quote]
Exactly all of this. I’m extremely pessimistic about season 8 to be honest. I want Sam and Dean to be the central characters on their own show. I’m so sick of the angel storyline garbage.
[quote]]
It must be Dean and Sam who save the world, hell and heaven for humans, angels and demons, period. NOT Cas, Crowley, Kevin or some new character. PERIOD.
[/quote]
It’s always ultimately been the brothers who save the world. The other characters just help them do it. The brothers couldn’t actually do it (or have done it) without help from the other characters.
“This is our ‘Raiders of the Lost Ark’ year.” YAAAY!!! I love the sound of that. ๐
[IMG]http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l22/coltshot_1/SamIndianaWinchestersnakes.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l22/coltshot_1/DeanIndianaWinchesterhorse.jpg[/IMG]
I had originally said I didn’t want flashbacks but it sounds like it will be telling both brothers stories that way so I think that will work out. JC’s FTBMAY was very even handed (I thought) in dealing with both brothers when they were apart so hopefully this will too.
I’m glad we’re going back to angels and demons – and whatever monster Purgatory coughs up next. I liked Kevin Tran so I’ll be pleased to have him in the cast for season 8.
๐ ๐ I love those photos! Thanks so much for sharing. I personally love the film, but I also love “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.” Still, I’m very hopeful for the season.
Thanks. I wish I was clever enough to have been the one to make them, but I’m not. ๐ These were done by a friend at the defunct CW boards. She made several of these to illustrate an ‘essay’ I wrote about how Supernatural was more like Raiders than Star Wars. I could probably update it to include that SPN is more like Raiders than Butch & Sundance too. LOL
Great pictures! ๐
Thanks!
Ick. I just thought of something. If there are flashbacks to Purgatory, then will Dean come back and have yet another “secret” this year, like last year? Then we can spend all year with lies and hiding again? ugh
I hope they remember Raiders of the Lost Ark was a fun movie too. They did their best to forget that with Butch & Sundance.
I notice how I have zero trust in any of them anymore. And a lot of you seem to agree with my crabby foreshadowing. I’ll still watch as always of course. lol
Laurie, I have zero trust in the writers too! They have proven they can’t be trusted to tell a good, compelling story. I’d rather not recycle the whole “Dean’s got a secret” story. Honestly, that’s why I wasn’t jazzed about the whole Purgatory storyline. We’ve done this before. Why not throw both boys in an otherworld/dimension TOGETHER . . . . that would be a new concept.
Yeah, but you got to understand, the ideas were good, the execution was lousy. Now that there’s a new leader, perhaps they’ll learn from those mistakes. Or maybe not. It will remain to be seen.
You know, part of the fun of being a fan of the show, and watching all of the episodes, is that you get to know all of the rules of the universe the show operates in. Dean just ‘fights his way out?’ Of [i]Purgatory[/i]? A prison God designed to hold the oldest and most powerful beings he ever created? A place so remote and secure it took the powers of heaven and hell an entire year to crack it open after scouring all of earth for clues? And Dean just…he just ‘fights his way out’? That is LAME. Sam had a moment to shine as a hero and they stole it from him for no good reason. It actually makes the story weaker. Also, the impression that they don’t really know what to do with Cas yet? Also LAME. The fact that Dean gets a ‘purgatory friend’ really makes me think that they’re going to have Cas leave Dean alone in purgatory for some reason, which is also incredibly stupid, weak, and lame. Pretty much everything in this spoiler makes me think that this season is going to suck big time. Kevin is the only good thing about it.
I agree!
I am more than excited to watch the next season!
First, I am thrilled to have Castiel back (as a series regular, I pray). For me, he adds an indefinable value to the show. Misha’s acting, Castiel’s versatility, and both of their contributions to the on-screen SPN “Family” were sorely missed last year. It’s because of Castiel that I love the boys, and Bobby, and the show. I would have hated to never see him again.
Second, I am delighted that we’ll be spending some time in Purgatory, whether in flash-back form or in real-time. It is probably my favorite plot development since the angel-arc was introduced in season 4. The promise of new monsters and desperate adventures has me on the edge of my seat with impatience.
Third, I look forward to seeing the brothers mend their broken relationships, with each other and with Cas. It has been a long time coming. It’s been hard on everyone. The isolation was a good idea in theory, but I feel like the writers, by stranding the brothers, without even each other to lean on, left a lot of the audience emotionally stranded as well. This new season looks like it will be a time of healing and growth, and I can’t wait.
Fourth, and finally, I am so glad to have Mr. Jeremy Carver back on the show! Many of my favorite episodes are a result of his handiwork and participation. I think he has a strong sense of what this show is about, and how to best put it into action.
Thank you for the spoilers!
I was hoping for a longer separation. I wanted to explore purgatory and see some familiar faces. To me a purgatory storyline is filled with endless possibilities. It’s kind of a letdown to think that this may be another opportunity that is totally wasted.
A time jump and flashbacks could be good, if they’re done right but after the last two seasons I don’t exactly have my hopes up.
I know Carver will be back and perhaps his style of showrunning will result in a more cohesive season, but who knows.
I also wanted to add that I am among those who believe Cas is still in Purgatory. I thought his poof routine was a cheap shot at a cliffhanger because wouldn’t it be difficult to get out of Purgatory? *shrug* I do like the idea of Crowley pulling him out. I am so ready for Crowley to finally be the big bad.
Not happy at all with these spoilers. So sick of Cas and the angels storyline. This smells like a redux of season 4 again and I’m not gonna watch that.
(Note From Alice – “So don’t watch it” is treading a fine line. Sorry, but I’ve been giving criticisms about season 7, my job as a reviewer, and I’ve a several fans jump down my throat with the “don’t watch it” defense. That’s hardly an option for fair TV review, isn’t it? All opinions are welcome and we respect them. You are permitted however to respectfully disagree.)
So don’t watch it. ๐ Those of us who will still love the show, and the angels, will watch it instead, and happily.
Edited by Alice – Your offense by the post has been noted and received. I’ve given a note of warning. We really don’t like bickering on this site, so that’s why I’m editing the rest of the exchange.
[quote]No one insulted you. I am also glad you are not a fan like me. :)[/quote]
Very true, I love the angel story line.. And I thought the dead angels would be in purgatory.. Afterall, they aren’t humans so they must have gone somewhere after death… Pfft, I just wanted Gabriel to come back.. ๐
Wouldn’t you think a dead angel would be in… heaven?
[quote]Wouldn’t you think a dead angel would be in… heaven?[/quote]
You’d think so, but I’m not sure. They’re creatures… The ones killed in heaven (quite a few) wouldn’t just pop up again in the same place?? They couldn’t.
I’m almost positive that if angels go anywhere in death, it would be purgatory. They are not human, and heaven was designed to contain human souls (and living angels). Angels don’t seem to have souls in the same sense that humans do, and we’ve never seen a dead angel in heaven, though we’ve been there enough times, haha. No, the way Castiel and the others mourn over their dead brothers, makes me think they are either non-existent after death, or that they are no longer part of [i]this[/i] world, at least.
Purgatory would be a great way to explore some of these ideas, and maybe we would get to see Gabriel again. ๐ I know that’s something I’d love.
Striking character-Scully… She loved Mulder but was not co-dependent of him, was smart and integrates, his skepticism was exciting. Was thinking that we could remove some things of the characters Scully and Mulder and put in the brothers. ๐
I’m not referring to ALL Sam!girls, there’s nothing wrong with liking Sam. And, yes, a lot of the failings for the last two season falls on the writers. I’m referring to the VERY radical Sam!girls who happen to be very loud about how they want the show to be about the ‘brother bond’ which in their mind translates to Dean just taking care of Sam and reacting to things happening to Sam. Not all Sam!girls are like that, but a very large majority, whether you believe it or not, see it that way.
These are the same people who cry foul when focus gets on Dean for a while. None of the story lines Dean is given are ever followed through by Dean himself. When Dean fans speak out about this nothing happens, when Sam fans speak out the writer’s do something about it. People who were really fans of both brothers would want them both to get storylines that progress their characters.
I have faith in Jeremy to fix the mess that Sera created the last two years, but I find it a wasted opportunity to not explore the two characters separated from each other and then given an epic reunion of badassery.
You act as if there aren’t Dean!Stans or EDGs who can’t stand Sam and want him gone or in the background so the show can become the Dean/Castiel show. There are extreme fans to all the show’s characters, not just Sam.
I’m bi-bro. I love both brothers equally, and I was never excited about Purgatory. And that’s not because I don’t want Dean to have a storyline (Dean’s always had a storyline in my opinion but that’s another conversation). I am sick of the brothers being separated. This past season, they were emotionally separated and distant even though they were physically together and had no problems with each other. I fell in love with Supernatural because of the brothers and their relationship. I fell in love with the family dynamic. The show has never been about the mythology to me. It has been about family. That’s why I watch.
Sam and Dean’s relationship IS the heart of the show. I don’t think their relationship is too close or claustrophobic. I’m fine with them having friends and allies. I also want to see them together hunting. That’s the draw for me.
Maybe you only watch to see Dean and are sick of him being with his brother but I honestly think (and I have no stats to back me up) you are in the minority. I think the majority of fans want to see Sam and Dean together. And that doesn’t mean they don’t have friends/allies, but they are together “saving people, hunting things.”
These spoilers sound awful to me. I couldn’t care less about Kevin Tran, and I’m not sure if I like this tablet stuff. Like others, I also thought it would be nice to see Sam save Dean like he couldn’t do in Season 3 but that’s not gonna happen. And I’m not excited or interested in Sam’s GF in any way, shape, or form. I was hoping they would have broadened the hunting world during the separation and given Sam some new hunters to roll with on occasion. Sam needs some friends. It would have been nice to see others seem him out as an established, well-respected hunter. Oh well. We can’t always get what we want!
Since you’ve made your thoughts plain on on what you’d like to see Sam doing in S8, I was just curious at to what you’d like to see Dean doing in S8.
I’d like to see Dean as the one with the role of predominantly driving the myth-arc this time around. It sounds to me, from these spoilers, as if Kevin Tran is going to be gifted with that role, and I’ll be deeply disappointed in Carver if it turns out that way.
I’m so not interested in seeing and watching Dean in a strictly and only supportive role yet again after watching him be stuck with that extremely limiting role for 6 of the 7 seasons of this show already-so that last bit in these spoilers is very discouraging to this fan, too. I DO think that what Singer said there can be taken a number of ways, though-so I’m not going to give up on Carver possibly still delivering on this Deanfan wish-a wish that has been long-held by many in the fandom(and not just Deanfans or EDGs), and that the PTBs must most certainly know about, at this point.
I’m sorry to say it but, from most of what I’ve read and seen, these spoilers seem to have really put the kibosh on all the rejuvenated fandom hopes for the new season that the s7 finale inspired. Too bad. Maybe some better stuff will come out of Comic Con. I sure do hope so.
Oops. Forgot to add, the only one of these spoilers that I really liked and that leaves me with any kind of hope for a meatier storyline for Jensen/Dean is the re-insertion of the angels into the story because as per Kripke in the S4 companion book-they are Dean’s connection to the myth-arc-AND once introduced, they have become as much a part of the myth-arc as the demons, IMO; so for storyboard continuity’s sake also-I’m extremely glad and happy that Carver has chosen to bring them back. I love Cas and his brothers-in-arms friendship with the brothers-especially w/ Dean-and I am looking forward to as much of Cas and Dean in Purgatory as they are willing to give us, even if it does turn out to be mostly through flashbacks…*hoping it’s A LOT!*…
I agree!
Hmm . . . I’m not sure, Shelby. Like I said, I was never too excited by this Purgatory storyline but if a separation had been planned, I guess I would have liked to see how Dean survived Purgatory. LOL!
Sounds simple but it would have been interesting to see if he met any other humans stuck in Purgatory or any of the creatures he “ganked.” I was curious as to how Purgatory would be shown. Would it be like Earth in the sense that Dean could find food, shelter, water? Is it otherworldly in the sense that Dean wouldn’t carve sleep, food, etc. while there? Those were some of the questions I had after the final scene aired. I wasn’t excited like, “Cool! Dean’s in Purgatory.” I was more like, “Well, how is he supposed to survive there? This season sucked.” LOL!
I couldn’t agree more w/you about Kevin Tran. Since Dean’s been to Purgatory, why couldn’t the arc center around him in some way. I didn’t care about Kevin Tran when he was first introduced, and I don’t care about him now. The actor is fine, but I can take or leave the character.
Sadly, I had zero hopes for Season 8, and these spoilers have not changed that. None of what I’m reading sounds good, but I’ll watch. Maybe, I’ll be pleasantly surprised!
Agree with your post lala2.
Sam and Dean are the heart of the show and I want them together as well.
Also am a bit disheartened by the spoilers, as I was hoping we were Finally, after 4 years, through with the heaven and hell, angels vs demons and where is God scenarios. Tired of it as it overshadows the boys too much. It’s just too far out of their hands in so far as having an effect on things and instead of them being the instigators in the saving and hunting, they end up being pushed and pulled around by these non human beings! Enough of that already!
On the other hand, I will wait and see how it all turns out while hoping for season 9 to follow after.
If it is more like seasons 1 to 3 then great! They are my favourite seasons anyway.
Please Jeremy Carver. Give us those too close brothers back, and while you are at it, bring back Bobby! ๐ I’m tired of being overly depressed with my favourite boys!
Thanks, Bevie!
I agree w/you too. My only problem w/the angels is the boys become too disconnected from the story.
In the episode where Cas first appeared in Season 6, at some point, Sam and Dean just disappeared from the episode. Cas was battling w/Balthazar, and it really had nothing to do w/Sam and Dean. That’s a problem, IMO. The action should always involve or include the leads in some way. Maybe that’s why I don’t care about Kevin Tran and Crowley. Why should I care if Crowley is looking for Kevin Tran? Honestly, why should Sam?
I also think w/the angels the stakes become much larger . . . . too large for Sam/Dean. It’s always about the end of the world, and there’s never much Sam and Dean can do to prevent that. Like you said, they end up being pushed and manipulated rather than doing the pushing or manipulating.
I believe this season proved that the boys need to be a large part of the overarching arc, and not just as bystanders or protectors. It needs to be personal for the Winchesters.
JMO.
Three things, I hope it is Sam who gets Dean out (and I hope Cas is in purgatory and escapes with him). Seriously. Sam needs to be active here instead of reactive.
Next, I’m PSYCHED to have angels and demons back in the mix. They make the supernatural world feel so much larger and grander, rather than claustrophobic. The cosmic turf wars have always intrigued me. I can’t wait!
Last, I’m worried about Cas’s role in the season. He has so much potential and I get sick of seeing him ignored in favor of weak one-shot episodes. The statement about Cas is so vague it’s hard to tell, but I hope he regains the presence he had in season 5, showing up to help the brothers and expand his own story in the process.
This whole ‘brotherly bond’ shit is annoying me. Yes the show is about the brothers. But seriously they can’t go a few episodes apart? I love the brothers as much as the next person but they are so codependant that there is no way it can be healthy. God forbid they spend any time apart. And seriously people we NEED the side characters. There wouldn’t be a show without them. And if they didn’t have the angels arc then what would the show be? repetitive. Dean and Sam find a Case. They drive there. The monster/demon whatever ruffs them up a bit then they save the day. It needs and actual plot and story arc. Sam and Deand driving around killing things can only be entertaining for so long. They need to interact with other people to you know. Seriously i love my sister to death, i’d die for her in a hear beat but that doesn’t mean i want her breathing down my neck every second of my life. It’s ok for them to do their own thing once in awhile. Purgatory could be possibly a great story line and they are going to just throw it away because the brothers aren’t allowed to be apart for that long.
Another thing that annoys me is that neither of the brothers seems to be allowed ot have anyone in their lives but eachother. Anyone the brothers love or get close to dies. (John, Bobby, Ellen, Jo, Ash, Cas, and that’s not even close to half of them) They need other people in their lives they can depend on. It seems like ‘Dean is showing interest in/paying attention to someone other than Sam? Kill them’ and vice versa. ‘That really great story line we came up with might mean that Sam and Dean are actually their own person and have their own lives? drop it.’ and just UGH it’s annoying. I love the show to death and I’m not hating. Just point out that the brothers should be allowed to have other people in their lives.
Agreed. If it wasn’t for other characters and myth-arc stuff like angels and demons the show would be like the Supernatural version of CSI. That’s not very exciting to see the same thing over and over.
There’s a lot of other storylines out there besides angels, you know. After four years they’re becoming more than a little repetitive too. These spoilers sound exactly like season 4– demons and angels fight over earth blah blah blah. Stale and old.
[quote]There’s a lot of other storylines out there besides angels, you know. After four years they’re becoming more than a little repetitive too. These spoilers sound exactly like season 4– demons and angels fight over earth blah blah blah. Stale and old.[/quote]
No, Dean revolving around Sam is stale and old.
No one wants a rehashing, of either scenario. Agreed? New stories are better stories. The heart of the stories remains the same (family).
I can agree with this. The brothers’ both need to ‘get a life’ because they don’t seem to have much of one. ๐
Not really getting much excitement from this interview, but then again I never get any excitement from Singer’s interviews, so I’m not totally worried yet. I’m eagerly waiting to hear from Jeremy Carver and Ben Edlund at Comic Con, they’re my favourite writers on the show, so that’s what it’s mostly keeping my interest in S8.
I really hate they will reunite the brothers so quickly, sorry… I LOVE their relationship but I really would have loved to explore this kind of separation which is out of their control, not because they’re pissed/disappointed at each other, like it happened in the past. I personally think it would have been a great opportunity to explore the characters on their own while being all about getting back to each other, until we got a major epic reunion. I mean some time will happen and all so for the characters it may feel that way, but as a viewer I won’t really get to explore the separation much.
Another thing I don’t like… That absolute “No” about Sam saving Dean from purgatory… I mean I’m realistic and I understand that it wouldn’t be logical that Sam managed to save Dean on his own when Cas and Crowley had so much trouble openning purgatory, but I was hoping to see him desperately TRYING to find a way even if in the end it wasn’t him who did the saving. I guess we can still see that in flashbacks, but I dunno… the answer kinda disappointed me, though I like the idea of Dean finding his way out of there somehow… That sounds like totally badass Dean lol I like that heh.
I’m curious as to where Cas is though, it really seems like he was pulled out of Purgatory, which is the impression that I got in the finale, until I read the comments and people seemed conviced he was still there. Wherever he is, I’m just hoping beyond hope that they’re done messing up with his character… Crazy!Cas was funny but I want the Cas who cares and fights for good cause back, so he can truly redeem himself… I don’t want him to still be afraid of intervene in fear of messing up even more. :/
The thing that worries me the most about the interview though is about Jeremy Carver not really changing things up. I’m sorry Singer, but S7 sucked impressively in both character development and storyline… so I’m certainly hoping for some changes. Less MOTW and more actual plot, character development, brother moments and supporting characters who are used as more than simple tools for more unnecesary against. Thank you very much. Still hoping for the best on S8! ๐
Ha yeah, I agree! After season 2 they really beat John and I was upset by that.
He wasn’t that bad! He did his best considering what he lost and taking into consideration he was scared to lose his kids and also felt he needed to stop evil (as a vet of the Vietnam War it wouldn’t be in soldier character to not go after the enemy before it came back to get him or the rest of his family).
What bugged me the most is John being a terrible father only came up after he was dead. I mean, the guy’s dead, and before that they showed John in a more sympathetic light. Why make it all negative after he’s dead? Kind of cruel.
I love angels and demons in Supernatural and don’t care to see Dean and Sam separated a little … Of course that is not as in the sixth season. The love of the brothers is huge even though it is at a distance, kkk and that distance … Purgatory our!!. And I want to surely see flashbacks of both brothers, I love flashbacks! I love time travel! I Love Carven!! I Love Supernatural!!! ๐ ๐
I forgot to mention… I’m really happy we’re back to angels and demons but not dragging out the apocalypse plot. They had an amazing opportunity last season to start fresh with a new dangerous species and even maybe get some of the Lovecraft lore into the show, but they totally wasted it :/ So I really prefer my personal faves species angels and demons, to get back in the game… I don’t think I could take another season of Leviathans being the big bads, they were seriously disappointing, specially since they had such a great potential!
Agreed. It was a good concept, poorly executed. I’m definitely looking forward to next season, as a chance to return to an exciting show. ๐
I love how Sam and Dean get reunited very quickly but I hope they know how much most of the fans grew fond of Castiel. Last season lost 90% of its appeal without him. I really hope they don’t make the same mistake again and exclude him from the show the entire season.
I feel the same. I suffered through a lot of the episodes last season, but I missed Castiel’s presence and contribution, in ways I hadn’t even realized he mattered. I actually had to beg a few friends to keep watching, but none of them were interested until Cas returned. :/ I understand, because he’s so compelling, as a character. And frankly, a lot of the leviathan plot rode on his shoulders, so it seemed like a lot of the episodes were just to fill time until he came back, and presented a solution. It didn’t help (at all) that we lost everyone who mattered to us and the boys. It was a very lonely season, in general.
I can’t help but think the writers should have a look at Game Of Thrones – and the fandom should too, at least the ones that thinks the brother’s should be reunited immediately.
It is VERY possible to keep the story moving and entertaining, all the while the characters don’t actually speak with or meet with one another. The boys can be separated, the story can continue both in purgatory and out of it. It isn’t that hard – c’mon SPN writers, don’t get rid of the purgatory plot just because they brother’s aren’t together!
I dont need the [b]boys[/b] to be together right now when they are they are still miles apart . It is how they write [u]Sam[/u] that I care about .
I want him to save Dean but dont think he will .I want him to not be just [u]fine[/u] after his trauma but think he will be. After 7.17 I wasnt going to go into season 8 with huge expectations and still dont.
Supernatural has not really addressed the brothers’ PTSD very well, over all. I’d also like to watch Sam adjust and battle his inner demons until he’s better. But he would do it in his own, rational way, too. He has always used his brain, first and foremost. In a way, I think maybe his acceptance of his time in hell, as his “due” is the start of him coming to terms with it, beginning to actually deal with it. I think it gave him a little perspective on his life, definitely. It will be nice to see how that plays out, as he deals. ๐ Sammy is just lovely, isn’t he? He’s grown into one of my absolute favorites.
I’m really excited about season 8, the spoilers sound very interesting!
Oh dear… not more angels. I was hoping that the angel storyline was over. I was also desperately hoping that Sam would be the one to save Dean. I have to admit, these spoilers have somewhat dampened my excitement for S8.
Not having Sam save Dean makes me seriously consider giving up the show I’ve loved for 8 years. I mean do they EVER read what the fans want? This time since they took it from Sam to save Dean from hell then this should have been time he got to go in like a BAMF and save his big brother. They have instead ruined this season before it’s begun for me now. We’re going to instead get Sam just ignoring the fact his bro’s in purgatory and not being allowed to save him AGAIN. I give up with these writers I really do. A little enthausiasm or passion or excitement for a show you’re RUNNING would be nice. Jesus.
I think the wording is abstract enough to leave room for doubt about how Dean gets out of Purgatory. I hope it as thanks to Sam, and if it wasn’t i’ll be ery disappointed too. But maybe Dean can do it on his own, what would not be completly wrong, since the guy needs an ego boost.
Sam deserves being the one saving Dean, though, and we fans have been waiting to see it since season 3!
Alice has there been any chatter about the music? The once impressive soundtrack has been replaced with uber generic soap opera/porn background music with an occasional rock song thrown in.
I’ll give you a high five on that one. I miss my mullet rock soundtrack.
No chatter on that, but that’s a great question. Will try to bring it up at Comic-Con.
In a debate on another board a few days ago I made the point that Cas was a character that divided the fandom. Someone disagreed with me. Maybe I should direct them here ๐
No one, from any faction, can claim to speak for the whole fandom. And even if it was possible to get an idea of what the majority views were in the online fandom, they would in no way reflect the views of the 2m + (more worldwide) wider audience of the show.
My sense from being active in the online fandom for a long time, and from the people I know who watch the show in real life, is that most are not extremists. Most are into Sam and Dean and their relationship. I think as that has been the main focus for all of the life of the show most who really don’t like that wouldn’t still be here. But for most they don’t think that is an exclusive thing. It is a base from which views on what ELSE they enjoy vary. Alot probably ALSO like Cas, and/or like Cas and Dean’s friendship, and like Bobby. Some of these (let’s call them) ‘mainstream’ fans love the angel storyline, some don’t, some prefer Sam (but still love Dean) and some vice versa. Some really put a high priority on the bros relationship, for others it is just part of the mix but they’d be happy to see other things explored. Some love early seasons, some later. Some prefer motw, some prefer arc eps. Some love TFW, some prefer more focus on Dean and Sam with Cas used sparingly. I could go on. What I am describing (I hope) is the broad central ground in which I believe the views of most SPN fans fall. The foundations of it, and the thing most of that group shares, is a love of the basic premis (2 brothers who love each other, and their personal / professional fight against evil) as the framework on which everything else is built.
Then you have the extremists eg;
– Sam fans who want Sam to be the centre of everything, who say we never see his POV, and whose love for Sam makes them angry with Dean and / or hate Cas
– Dean fans who are always angry that Dean always has his story pinched by someone else, who think he can do no wrong, who think Sam doesn’t deserve him.
– Dean / Cas fans who don’t care about the bros relationship, who want D/C to get loads more screen time, who believe Cas is better for Dean than Sam, who believe Dean cares more for Cas than Sam, who think the ‘profound bond’ they see should be the centre of the show.
– Wincest and Destiel fans who want their ships to be canon or think they are canon.
Etc etc.
These extreme fans tend to shout louder than the mainstream, but that doesn’t make them greater in number. And because they are so vocal and passionate, and because the views held by these different groups of extreme fans are diametrically opposed, their debates make the fandom look more divided and angry than I believe it really is.
Personally I am in this mainstream group. I watch for Dean and Sam, but I like Cas and Bobby fine. I liked TFW. I want the writers to include other characters, particularly Cas, in a non divisive way that brings with them as much of the fandom as possible. For me that means no extreme solutions that would thrill some and enrage others (eg ep after ep of Dean and Cas bonding while Sam is elsewhere, or killing off / writing out Cas).
[quote]because the views held by these different groups of extreme fans are diametrically opposed, their debates make the fandom look more divided and angry than I believe it really is.[/quote]
Yes! And since Cas only divides these very small extreme minorities, the wider division you hinted at further up in your post is an illusion.
What wider division are you saying I referred to Maria? I think I was saying that most fans of SPN like Sam, Dean and Cas and Bobby. So I’m not following you sorry.
If you mean my statement that Cas is divisive, then yes the majority of this is driven by the extremists I agree (although there are disagreements about balance and priorities linked to Cas within the mainstream fans too). But I still think that the writers need to deal with the Cas issue in a way that brings the majority of fans with them. Fans can be driven out of the mainstream into extreme groups when stories are badly, or extremely handled. Eg some who are now extreme Dean fans became so, and became very anti Sam, due to the s4 storyline.
[quote]What wider division are you saying I referred to Maria? [/quote]
This, from your first post: “In a debate on another board a few days ago I made the point that Cas was a character that divided the fandom”.
I think this is a pretty good overview. However, I think you left out the extremist ‘brother’s bond’ people who want the bros together 24/7 and can’t stand them being separated for even a couple of episodes.
The more extreme fans will always be the ones who are most vocal because they are not seeing what they want, which tends to be the show weighted very far toward one character or one situation which the writers will never do. (I know, I know – in my opinion — obviously folks think they already have done it – hence the outcries.)
That being said, the groups have made valid points, I believe, about issues to do with their favorite characters , which the writers could address – although even if they do, it probably won’t be ‘enough’ to please.
[quote]I think this is a pretty good overview. However, I think you left out the extremist ‘brother’s bond’ people who want the bros together 24/7 and can’t stand them being separated for even a couple of episodes.
[/quote]
The way you put it here makes it sound extreme, but I deliberately didn’t include this because I believe an attachment to the brothers – albeit with varying levels of attachment – forms the common ground at the heart of the fandom. Like it or not, Dean and Sam ARE together pretty much all the time. That is how the show is structured. People who hate a family living together in close quarters, sharing everything etc would never have become fans of The Waltons. Same with SPN. It’s always been Dean and Sam, living, working, driving together, even sharing a room. That’s the premis of the show. So by my definition people who enjoy that are not extremists.
[quote]The more extreme fans will always be the ones who are most vocal because they are not seeing what they want, which tends to be the show weighted very far toward one character or one situation which the writers will never do. (I know, I know – in my opinion — obviously folks think they already have done it – hence the outcries.)
That being said, the groups have made valid points, I believe, about issues to do with their favorite characters , which the writers could address – although even if they do, it probably won’t be ‘enough’ to please.[/quote]
I totally agree with this. Too often people confuse ‘not what I wanted’ with ‘poor quality’. The writers have an unenviable task.
I would have to point out that I’ve encountered (online) people who would rather see Dean and Sam alone, at all times, emotionally isolated from anyone who interrupts their ‘moments’. They are not invested in the show as a whole, nor in the story as an adventure. They want more of the emotional payoff, but without the struggle that must pave the way. It can become fanatical. And I say this, as one of the biggest fans of the brothers. I love them to death. I want to see them working together, as a united front against the darkness in the world, as much as anyone. But I also don’t believe that characters like Cas prevent that — I believe the reverse, that characters like Cas actually help illuminate the brothers’ relationship. He (and other characters who interact with the brothers — oh to have Bobby alive!) presents an outsider perspective, and gives further insights to the audience that we’d never have from the brothers themselves. Some people refuse to acknowledge this, even from a narrative standpoint. There are people who send the ugliest, and most hateful messages to fans who like Cas, wanting to see him destroyed because they think he interrupts the brothers’ relationship. Some of these messages have really hurt me, personally, because they are attacks, and not even logical debates. So, there really are fanatics from both sides.
Certainly, the show is about the brothers. Sam and Dean are the main characters. The original premise -2 guys on the road with chainsaws in the trunk, hunting things, saving people – the family business is, as you say, the heart of the show.
But you bias your argument by either not recognizing that there ARE extreme brother fans, who are also divisive in the fandom, or by folding them in with the more moderate fans and validating THEIR extremism while condeming others’.
Well said. Extremists are really no fun, however you slice it. The majority of people I talk to about the show in real life, love the brothers, love Bobby and Cas, and love the show’s mix of action and drama, myth and reality. ๐
t’s unfortunate that the writers chose to waste an opportunity to have Sam save Dean from Purgatory. He failed to save Dean from Hell in S4 and experienced some guilt because of it. I think Sam saving Dean would be great for all involved. Sam would get a second chance to get it right, a do-over. Dean would see all the sacrifices Sam made to rescue him and their bond will only be even stronger because of it.
I don’t mind the flashbacks since I have zero interest in the Wacky Adventures of Dean and Cas in Purgatory. The sooner the boys are reunited the better and it’s a good thing that in spite of all the noise, the producers remember that a significant chunk of fandom has always enjoyed/still enjoys/and will always enjoy the Winchesters together, fighting side by side.
I’m delighted that Kevin will be back to play an integral part this season. Those who keep clamoring for more side characters should be celebrating too. Time to give a new side character the spotlight and a chance to bond with the Winchesters. Right?
I’m also looking forward to that S2 and 3 feel. I’ve been waiting for it to come back since the dreaded S4.
I was really hoping that Sam would save Dean too. I’m not sure that these spoilers actually preclude that Sam is at least involved in getting Dean out. I just loved the cliffhanger a lot and it doesn’t seem like they’re going to pick up from that point, but that we come back to it later. That could be a good thing, maybe they want Sam to work with Charlie or Jody, for example, and the actresses aren’t available until later – doing it in flashback in later episodes could make it possible.
I’m very happy about Kevin being around for S8 too.
You know, I’ve read some pretty epic purgatory fanfiction. I’ve read one where Sam had to go on a crazy spirit quest, and one where he went and found Jesse the antichrist and one where he got a spell that basically cracked open the fabric of creation. I read one where purgatory turned Cas into a monster and Dean had to hunt him, and one where Sam got them out but Purgatory kept a piece of both of them, like doppelgangers left behind forever. No slash, just good solid psudo-horror. Tasty stuff. And all the time, I had a sneaking suspicion that what I was reading was better than what I was going to get…I wasn’t thinking I’d get a whole season of monsterland, but dang, I was hoping for at least three episodes. Oh, well. Glad I saved my bookmarks.
I know, right? The fiction and artwork produced already has been fantastic! I applaud the creativity and talent in this fandom.
Cas!haters are winning ๐
Warning by Alice – Yeah, I don’t get this. Sounds like you are trying to stir up trouble. Perhaps something a little more introspective?
I don’t understand this comment at all.
This is not a contest, this is a community. Let’s keep it that way, please? If you’re worried about Castiel not getting fair treatment, the best thing to do would be nicely and logically stand up for him. The worst thing you can do is attack people and put others on the defensive. That’s both rude and counter-productive.
The season is still a long way off and I’m disappointed already. I had so hoped for some Purgatory and the brothers developing separate from each other and becoming their own person (there’s nothing wrong with being brothers, but it’s like that’s Sam’s and Dean’s only character trait) and now we’ll only get flashbacks.
Hopefully “a number of times” means a lot of Castiel, and not some evil, twisted version either. And now killing him off anymore, please. I missed him terrible.
Edited by Alice – Yes, there are some extreme opinions. I’m allowing them though for now. I cannot allow posts though that criticize other posters. Again, I understand the frustration, but I got to keep the conversation somewhat civil.
my hopes for the show just died. but anyway i’m going to do what i did for season 7, watch only the castiel episodes. because i’m not supernatural fan, just a castiel fan.
Heoo Alice: can you please take a look at your commenter Kris’s posts further up? She has made a whole bunch of really snide and mean-spirited comments about Misha’s twitter popularity. If Casfans came here and made similar comments about Jared’s twitter followers not being genuine, she wouldn’t like it and nor would a lot of fans who post here.
Got it. Been editing posts left and right. I took out the entire thread on that topic since it wasn’t relevant to the discussion.
I wish they had kept them separated for at least a few episodes… But really excited about the angels and demons!!! I loved all of them and I really missed them.
Iรยดd be happier if they gave us a little more concrete answer about Cas, but it canรยดt be worse then season 7 (I hope)
Knock on wood, quick! ๐
one question for the wincest slash fan. if you feel like if you have a special bond with your parents or siblings than anyone else in the world, that its alright to have sex with them? being a slash fan is alright because they are all over the world. like darry, johnlock, erik/charles. being a incest fan is sick. imagine yourself with your siblings, it is sick. i’m a slash fan so cas was a relief for me when he came to the show. ps i love sam, dean is my hero and cas is my favourite.
It’s a question of your moral standpoint, actually. Since Sam and Dean wouldn’t be reproducing, questions of biology and genetic inheritance don’t matter. Many cultures in the past allowed and even encouraged siblings to marry. Once people are adults, it’s up to them to decide who they have sex with. If all parties are of age and consent, it is okay. In the Bible, you have Abraham marrying Sarah, his half sister. You have sisters (like Leah and Rachel) marrying the same man. In Egypt, and England, and a host of other countries, the bloodlines were sacred, and needed to be kept “pure”, which lead to a lot of familial marriages. It hasn’t always been taboo. It is uncomfortable for many of us to think about, because of how close we are to our families, and how little we want to sleep with them (which actually stems from a cool psychological root, called incest-avoidance, which I won’t delve into here) — but it’s not universally true. It all comes back to the question of consent and age, whether the parties are adults, and make the decision with complete knowledge and responsibility. ๐
Hahaha, also, fun note of interest, I am not a even fan of wincest, as a romantic and sexual pairing. I am heavily invested in the emotion and loyalty of family though. My younger sister and I compare ourselves to Sam and Dean all the time. It’s one of the primary reasons we love the show. (That, and Castiel, whom we both started watching in order to meet.)
The honeymoon period is officially over for Jeremy Carver.
LOL! I do agree. I can’t wait to talk to him at Comic-Con, see if he’s aware of the intense expectations that are out there. I think he is. He just took on the most impossible job in the world.
If he isn’t aware, he’s been living under a rock!
Would you also be willing to convey to him how much the fans like his prior work on Supernatural, if you get to talk to him? ๐
[quote]There is extremes everywhere where they are so loud and want to writers to please them, but they are never pleased with the outcome.[/quote]
Certainly the anti-Cas fans started screaming very loudly once the finale appeared to strand Cas in Purgatory with Dean instead of Sam. And all of a sudden they started finding fault with the entire season, when they had previously been telling those of us who were complaining about how awful it was that the show and the brotherly bond were so much better now the show was back to basics (ie: no Cas).
Okay, I am seeing a lot of discontent above so here is what I have to say about this-
1) Sam tried his best to save Dean from hell, he tried to make deals with demons and [i]the[/i] only reason he started honing on his “skills” is so that he can kill Lilith and bring Dean back. Dean was eventually saved by the angels but that is a different story altogether.
2) It is mentioned NOWHERE that Sam wouldn’t be the one saving Dean.
3) This is just a part of the interview, we don’t yet know what the rest says. I trust Jeremy Carver, he understands the show’s concept very well and I am pretty sure he won’t “sidetrack” Sam and Dean. Don’t forget, he has given us some of the best episodes on Supernatural.
4) There is a HUGE part of fandom which hates it when Sam and Dean are apart for too long so I think it’s a wise choice to cater to their wishes rather than catering to the wishes of a minority.
5)When was Sam ever “unscathed by trauma”? Sometimes I think some people see what they want to.
7) I don’t think Dean needs any more show of love for Sam at the moment because they have been on the road for 8 yrs now and he knows how much Sam has given up for him or how much he loves him. Sam jumped into Lucifer’s Cage basically for Dean.
Bottom line, this interview isn’t even that clear. We REALLY can’t tell what’s gonna happen. Why bitch about something without competely understanding it. And how can some people start hating on something they love so quickly?
The problem isn’t that anybody wanted them apart for ‘too long’ I don’t think hardly anyone thought that the separation would last more than a few episodes, because in supernatural they always resolve the season finale stuff in 1-3 episodes, no matter how impossible the situation seems. What sucks is they’ll be together again at the end of one episode. We get NO cool purgatory stuff. From our perspective they’re apart literally for as long as ‘free to be you and me’. Long enough for Cas to scare a sex worker and Sam to slice some lemons and meet a very annoying girl. ‘Too long’? Hardly. I was hoping for more than ‘practically zero’. I was hoping for some cool monsters, some epic craziness unleashed. A terrible doom hanging over their heads because of where they’d been. How the heck are they going to do that in less than one episode, if they need to get Sam and Dean back together immediately? What a waste of potential storylines.
But the “cool purgatory stuff” will occur in flashbacks. Why is that a problem? You can still get your cool monsters (Dean’s meeting a new one apparently) and epic craziness.
I don’t understand why FBs prevent anyone from seeing Purgatory. It looks like they plan to show it.
Well, the biggest thing is its almost impossible to build any tension into something shown in a flashback. Because it already happened. You know, no matter how scary whatever-it-is you see, they’ll get out of it and be fine. It’s the same problem all prequels suffer from, no narrative tension. Also, flashbacks are necessarily [i]brief[/i]. They have to be, otherwise the viewers get lost. Flashbacks are usually at most a few minutes long. More commonly? A minute or less. And the last time they gave us flashbacks to Dean’s time in another realm, all we got were a few brief seconds of his eyes and screaming. So I for one am not expecting much. (But I am really disappointed).
Like I said, my fanfiction expectations were probably set way too high. The stories have Sammy riding in like a knight on a white horse, and have Purgatory throwing out some mind-twisting, angel-mutating stuff that was way too much for them to live up to. I figure if I just assume its going to be horrible then at least I won’t be disappointed, and I still might get pleasantly surprised.
But how much tension can there really be when the MAIN characters are the ones in peril? It’s like when they sent Dean to Hell. There was never a discussion about IF he would get out, only HOW. Dean can never return missing some limbs or w/o his sight or something b/c that would change the dynamic of the show.
Even if Dean had remained in Purgatory, I guess I never would have really feared for him. He’s a lead. He’ll be fine. On LOST, I had more fear for main characters b/c there were like 900 of them. Hahaha! Any of the leads could have been killed – though there were three [i]main [/i]main ones that were never gonna die – and the show would continue. Supernatural is not like that. Sam and Dean have to be present. Those two characters are the show.
Reasons why I don’t want Dean being reunited with Sam quickly.
Because I don’t believe DEAN SHOULD BE REDUCED TO BEING A CARETAKER 24/7, who needs to be in constant physical proximity to Sam.
Because I want Dean to deal with his issues, solve his problems with Castiel and realize that he isnรขโฌโขt useless, isnรขโฌโขt worthless, isnรขโฌโขt just there to hold his brotherรขโฌโขs hand.
Because using flashbacks is the same as re-telling a story, not actually telling one.
Because time apart for the brothers is healthy, especially after they were forced to be on their own without anyone else (who is close to them) to communicate with in season 7.
Because we might actually get a Sam POV and Dean plot if they are apart, with one being in Purgatory.
Because Dean never really got a meaningful story that centered around him in the first place. He was just there to react to things, never the driving force of the myth arc.
If Dean solves his problems (Johnรขโฌโขs influence over Dean), his interactions with other characters will improve and it will strengthen the bond between all of them. It will make Team Free Will stonger.
Dean cannot solve his problems, if heรขโฌโขs constantly attached to Sam. Why? Because he worries about him and this always takes precedence in the narrative. Being alone wonรขโฌโขt make Dean stop worrying about Sam, but it will make him understand what it means to be an individual. And that is what I want to see. Dean being a strong individual.
Attaching the brothers 24/7 results in cheap storytelling ala Amy. It is an injustice to Sam’s independence and Dean’s individuality. It’s mindless, pointless and shows no character growth whatsoever. Not to mention extremely repetitive.
And Singer got it all wrong.
Very good post.
[quote]Attaching the brothers 24/7 results in cheap storytelling ala Amy.[/quote]
What does the brothers being together have to do w/the “awfulness” that was the Amy story? That Amy drama was awful and horribly written, but I’m not sure how you can fault the brothers being together as the reason that story was bad. What are you talking about here?
Not a Castiel fan here and I think Misha’s a good actor who deserves to find a role where he can be the star, just not on Supernatural. However, I have one twitter account and I have the egg picture simply because 1) I’m not really sure how to put a picture up 2) I don’t have pictures to put up and 3) I’m too lazy to correct problems 1&2. Frankly I rarely tweet and use my account to follow others and to sign into posting sites that use Twitter as an access point. So I can’t use the fact that many of Misha’s followers only have egg pictures and don’t tweet much to mean they are not real. Maybe they just want to follow Misha.
I’m not going to dispute Misha’s popularity. I also think Castiel’s story has run its course.
Remember the first 2 seasons when the boys would meet a bad guy (ghost,wendigo etc) and just grab their weapons and kill them? Enough touchy feely emotions crap. I want the boys to be MEN , chop off a few vampire heads, salt a ghost. I want you to scare the s#*t out of me again. I want Sam and Dean back.
Men never have emotional crap to deal with, they just slice things.
??
I have three brothers. Trust me, they cause and experience emotional drama just like the rest of the world. Sam and Dean are only different in that their drama is huge, and often tries to eat them. There was plenty of “touchy-feely crap” in the first seasons. I know, because I watched them. It’s part of what gives the show depth. Jeremy is a good writer, with a strong sense of how to balance the fun and the serious sides of the story. I think he’ll do well with the emotional burdens the brothers bear. ๐
Yeah, the early seasons are really emotional. They say things I don’t think normal people ever would (not talking about the hunting, talking about their brother and daddy issues). Heck even in the Wendigo episode they have a heart to heart. And the first time we see vampires has several scenes where Sam and Dean whine about chaffing under John’s rule.
So I don’t think throwing back to the first seasons and claiming they were less emo is correct. I think maybe someone is due for a rewatch.
I personally think the emo hasn’t yet gone over the top. There has certainly been less tears of late! There’s just not been much emotional pay off. And Sam and Dean have been mostly just hunting monsters in season seven, and not really acting all that much more emo except in Dean drinking more. So instead of saying I want less emo (because actually I rather like it), I’ll say I want more payoff, more resolution, and a little more happy emotions.
Agreed. The monster of the week scenario was an unfortunate way for the brothers to avoid their issues, this season. They actually need to do more talking (read shouting, lol) and crying, to get to the smiling and bonding. I’m glad the end of the season started to remedy some of that. ๐
I am a bit disappointed that we won’t spend more time with Dean in Purgatory, but it sounds like we will get some flashbacks of both Dean in Purgatory and of what Sam did while Dean was away.
I still don’t agree that it’s any slight to Sam if Dean finds a way to escape Purgatory on his own. Dean didn’t save Sam from the Cage (after Sam played [i]the big hero[/i] and saved the world [i]all on his own[/i] in Swan Song!). I think Dean deserves to be treated with the same amount of respect by the writers — Dean should be allowed to have his own actions be the reason he escapes Purgatory.
I am very excited about this new monster that Dean met in Purgatory. And maybe it’s not a “new” monster but someone we’ve already met before?? I do hope we get to see Dean actually fighting and being kick-ass in Purgatory, even if it’s only in flashback.
I’m not sure about Kevin and his storyline being the focus of the mytharc. I really do think the show needs to develop it’s mytharc with a storyline that is [i]personal[/i] to Dean and Sam. It’s why I don’t think the Leviathan storyline worked well last season. But I’m willing to give Carver the benefit of the doubt for now. I really am excited about his new role as show runner.
Thanks for the spoilers, Alice.
[b]Sam jumping into the pit has no relevance to this [/b] Besides I never considered he saved the world by himself but thats another argument.
I have no problem with Dean getting himself out of Purgatory with a teaspoon and a piece of string however it would be nice as Sam didnt get to help his brother in the hell situation that this time he got that chance with prehaps the boys working together somehow a joint effort so to speak.
I dont believe that will happen and it will be more than likely Dean does get himself out thats the way the writers will want to do it.By I wont pretend it would disappoint me.
Sam’s own [i]actions[/i] — making the decision to allow Lucifer to use him as his vessel, and then jumping into the pit — saved the world.
The writers allowed Sam to be the big hero in Swan Song and I don’t agree that this is negated in any way if Sam doesn’t [i]also[/i] end up saving Dean from Purgatory.
Again Sam jumping into the pit has nothing to do with this situation with Dean in Purgatory .
I dont and have never said Sam would be less if he doesnt help Dean just that it would be nice if he did as he didnt get to help Dean with hell .
How do you read “Dean finds his way out of Purgatory” as “gets himself out with a teaspoon and some thread”? Sam might very well be the one who sets up whatever hypothetical road Dean finds to exit Purgatory. We won’t know until we watch it. They are keeping all of this very vague, on purpose. There is, as yet, no need to be upset.
It was a joke I dont really believe that Dean will have a teaspoon and a piece of string.
Sam might very well be ? but then he very will might not but it is how I feel and I am not upset just practical.
But you are quite correct in saying the show could be being vague but I wont hinge my view on that .
Just to make sure I’m interpreting your post I have some questions about this.
Reasons why I don’t want Dean being reunited with Sam quickly.
[b]Because I don’t believe DEAN SHOULD BE REDUCED TO BEING A CARETAKER 24/7, who needs to be in constant physical proximity to Sam.[/b]
So in your mind, Sam is incapable of becoming a means of support to Dean? He can NEVER take on a caretaker role? Sam can never even be an equal to Dean, he must always be the weak younger brother?
[b]Because I want Dean to deal with his issues, solve his problems with Castiel and realize that he isnรขโฌโขt useless, isnรขโฌโขt worthless, isnรขโฌโขt just there to hold his brotherรขโฌโขs hand.[/b]
So ONLY Castiel can “make Dean realize he isn’t useless”? Sam can’t contribute to this in any way? No human being is capable of understanding and helping Dean except Castiel?
[b]Because using flashbacks is the same as re-telling a story, not actually telling one.[/b]
Did you hate The Man Who Would Be King when it showed Castiel’s flashback to his actions in season 6?
[b]Because time apart for the brothers is healthy, especially after they were forced to be on their own without anyone else (who is close to them) to communicate with in season 7.
Because we might actually get a Sam POV and Dean plot if they are apart, with one being in Purgatory.[/b]
In theory I totally agree. In practice separating the boys means
[list][*]Dean encounters a Djinn and experiences his wish, real Sam is not seen[/list]
[list][*]Dean returns from Hell, encounters Castiel, finds Bobby. Sam is off screen until 45 minutes into Lazarus Rising.[/list]
[list][*]Dean goes to the future. Sam is no longer Sam but Lucifer[/list][list][*]Dean goes back to see his parents before they married. Sam is nowhere in sight[/list]
[list][*]Dean lives a life with Lisa and Ben. Sam shows up halfway in and is no longer really Sam.[/list]
[list][*]Sam goes after Amy and we see that 14 year old Sam felt like a freak and fell for a monster. Now Sam is barely in the episode[/list]
The only times I remember Dean and Sam being separate where Sam got any attention were in Scarecrow, Free To Be You and Me and The Man Who Knew Too Much. None of those wrote Dean out completely, unlike the other episodes I mentioned. Even I Know What You Did Last Summer had a lot of focus on Dean reacting to Sam’s story and way too much Ruby the Good as opposed to what Sam did and how he felt. In practice, separating the boys ends up with Dean experiencing feelings, finding out new information and Sam gets left by the side of the road.
[b]Because Dean never really got a meaningful story that centered around him in the first place. He was just there to react to things, never the driving force of the myth arc.[/b]
Agree to disagree on this.
If Dean solves his problems (Johnรขโฌโขs influence over Dean), his interactions with other characters will improve and it will strengthen the bond between all of them. It will make Team Free Will stonger.
[b]Dean cannot solve his problems, if heรขโฌโขs constantly attached to Sam. Why? Because he worries about him and this always takes precedence in the narrative. Being alone wonรขโฌโขt make Dean stop worrying about Sam, but it will make him understand what it means to be an individual. And that is what I want to see. Dean being a strong individual.[/b]
Dean had all that time with Lisa and Ben. He had the time when he and John hunted and often split for hunts. If the only way Dean can be an individual is without Sam, that is a show that doesn’t interest me. Plus, you DID say that Castiel has to be there helping Dean, so how is that Dean being on his own? Are you just substituting Castiel for Sam and saying Castiel is better?
[b]Attaching the brothers 24/7 results in cheap storytelling ala Amy. It is an injustice to Sam’s independence and Dean’s individuality. It’s mindless, pointless and shows no character growth whatsoever. Not to mention extremely repetitive.[/b]
Although I don’t think they need to be together 24/7 I also don’t think they need a long term separation in order for them to grow. Frankly, I believe that Sam rescuing Dean would do a lot for Sam’s independence, and for Dean learning that Sam is willing to work to save Dean helping with the self-esteem issue. Considering how far apart Sam and Dean have been emotionally since the end of season three, possibly the middle of season four, I think they need to reforge their bonds. This can be done with the help of Garth, Jodie, Charlie, new hunters, or whatever. Cas being in the mix has only added to the estrangement for 4 seasons. Cas did not help with Dean’s issues he worsened them. I would like the boys to grow while together and also have outside interests.
[b]And Singer got it all wrong.[/b]
I hope so, but for different reasons than you, I expect.
So in your mind, Sam is incapable of becoming a means of support to Dean? He can NEVER take on a caretaker role? Sam can never even be an equal to Dean, he must always be the weak younger brother?
Nope, Sam already is superior to Dean in his emotional development. After all, he admitted he can deal with his guilt, whereas Dean has issues and more issues piling up. It’s Dean who needs to catch up with Sam and not the other eay round. And the only way to do that is, if he takes care of himself, just as Sam said in season 7.
So ONLY Castiel can “make Dean realize he isn’t useless”? Sam can’t contribute to this in any way? No human being is capable of understanding and helping Dean except Castiel?
Again nope. His issues with Castiel are separate from his issues with himself. The trust he put in Castiel is a complete separate storyline from his own issues after John created his perfect little protector and soldier. He needs to solve both. One with Cas, and one for himself in the way I mentioned above.
Did you hate The Man Who Would Be King when it showed Castiel’s flashback to his actions in season 6?
I should have specified that point. Nope, one of my favorite episodes, because it provided a different POV. Just like Death’s door, which wasn’t a flashback but used the same method of giving another character POV.
I dislike using flashbacks in abundance, which Singer implied.
The only times I remember Dean and Sam being separate where Sam got any attention were in Scarecrow, Free To Be You and Me and The Man Who Knew Too Much. None of those wrote Dean out completely, unlike the other episodes I mentioned. Even I Know What You Did Last Summer had a lot of focus on Dean reacting to Sam’s story and way too much Ruby the Good as opposed to what Sam did and how he felt. In practice, separating the boys ends up with Dean experiencing feelings, finding out new information and Sam gets left by the side of the road.
Which would be the same as sticking POV to Dean and some half assed plot to Sam. I said it before and I say it again. POV for Sam and myth arc for Dean. Purgatory could be that chance. Because it would include Dean being occupied fighting monsters and Sam experiencing the loss heavily, planning, thinking, reacting.
Dean had all that time with Lisa and Ben. He had the time when he and John hunted and often split for hunts. If the only way Dean can be an individual is without Sam, that is a show that doesn’t interest me. Plus, you DID say that Castiel has to be there helping Dean, so how is that Dean being on his own? Are you just substituting Castiel for Sam and saying Castiel is better?
That’s exactly what would interest me. Dean being an individual without Sam. John enforced Dean’s caretaker role at the expense of Dean’s individual development, his wishes like becoming a firefighter. I am interested in Dean getting an identity that doesn’t revolve around Sam. And Purgatory is not the same as losing Sam to hell and returning to Lisa. Purgatory could be fighting for your own survival rather than coming up with ways to save your brother. Not to mention that this separation is the first, that was actually unintentional and not planned.
And no I am not substituting Castiel for Sam. Castiel’s dynamic with Dean is completely different from Dean’s dynamic with Sam. These two relationships aren’t comparable, but that doesn’t mean I’m implying one is lesser than the other. I said Castiel needs to solve his issues with Dean (and that excludes Sam, because he already forgave him, more so than Dean) That is why Castiel should still stick around with Dean in Purgatory, because it gives them time. And Cas is not a tool to help Dean. Dean can do that on his own.
Cas did not help with Dean’s issues he worsened them. I would like the boys to grow while together and also have outside interests.
Agreeing with the second, not the first. He only worsened it because Dean started to care about Cas and vice versa. Dean’s attachment to Castiel caused him to feel loss, anger, betrayal, sadness. That is, because Cas is Dean’s friend and his friend hurt his brother. That’s why it was such a dilemma for Dean. He admitted “Cas did the best he could at that time” Dean’s words. Dean likes Cas and betrayal from him hurts, because when family betrays you, Dean Winchester suffers. That’s always been the case. But I don’t begrudge Dean his friend. Any relationship contributes to character development, including the good and bad things. That’s why I love it so much.
[quote]I said it before and I say it again. POV for Sam and myth arc for Dean. Purgatory could be that chance. Because it would include Dean being occupied fighting monsters and Sam experiencing the loss heavily, planning, thinking, reacting.[/quote]
POV for Sam and mytharc for Dean means that Dean goes to Purgatory but that we never see him there. It means that we only see Dean’s story through Sam’s eyes – what Sam is able to observe and learn about Dean’s experience and how Sam feels about everything that has happened. Dean gets a couple of episodes of POV over the course of the season focusing on his reactions to being back, but he gets few or no flashbacks.
So flashback episodes are alright if they are about Castiel. Dean should learn to be on his own, except he should be with only Castiel. Sam is so superior emotionally, so don’t show his emotions or how Dean being gone effects him. Sam doesn’t need to emotionally grow. You say you want Sam’s POV as long as he is not with Dean.
You are obviously invested in Dean and that is great. You also have not offered any scenario for Sam, which is not your responsibility. However putting these together along with your insistence that reconciling with Castiel is the key to making Dean health, happy and , strong, I get the feeling you are looking for the Dean/Cas show with Sam moseying in from time to time but basically on the back burner, or staying as far away from Dean as he can. That’s a valid viewpoint, but not one I share.
There are fans who believe that the boys relationship is too claustrophobic and they need additional characters in their lives. I disagree about the claustrophobia, but do want more character interactions outside of the brotherhood. The scenario you paint seems to be making the Dean Castiel relationship as claustrophobic as some see Sam and Dean. You want Dean trapped with Castiel, with no one else to rely on so they can bond. That is a view of the show that I don’t care for, any more than I care to see Sam bonding with someone for months without Dean in his life.
Obviously you didn’t get my point at all, since you automatically imply that just because I like Castiel, or Castiel’s POV, it means I attach him to Dean. I repeat. Dean’s issues are two separate storylines.
Dean has TWO SEPARATE STORYLINES.
His issues with Castiel aren’t central to him automatically becoming better. His self-worth has nothing to do with Castiel. I just want both issues resolved. One doesn’t make the other go away. Read again.
Perhaps you will understand. But if you don’t want to, that’s fine I guess. We just have to agree to disagree.
[quote]Obviously you didn’t get my point at all, since you automatically imply that just because I like Castiel, or Castiel’s POV, it means I attach him to Dean. I repeat. Dean’s issues are two separate storylines.
Dean has TWO SEPARATE STORYLINES.
His issues with Castiel aren’t central to him automatically becoming better. His self-worth has nothing to do with Castiel. I just want both issues resolved. One doesn’t make the other go away. Read again.
Perhaps you will understand. But if you don’t want to, that’s fine I guess. We just have to agree to disagree.[/quote]
I’m confused as well then. You said you wanted Dean to realize that he is more than Sam’s caretaker, but I don’t understand why he cannot do this AND be around Sam? I’m not understanding why Sam has to be miles away for Dean to gain some self-worth, etc?
I’m also not understanding why Dean can’t heal his relationship w/Castiel AND also be around Sam? He developed the profound, deep bond w/Castiel when Sam was around so why couldn’t they repair the friendship w/Sam around?
I think some people just don’t want Sam around but aren’t willing to admit that. I’m just confused as to why Sam and Dean need to be apart to grow. They can still be together and grow.
And just b/c I prefer them together doesn’t mean I dislike secondary characters or believe they need to be every single scene together. I see no [i]need [/i] for them to be apart. I’m primarily interested in their relationship so I have no desire to see them leading completely separate lives for half or most of the season.
Certainly some people dislike Sam and don’t want him in the show (but I don’t know any personally and I don’t think this is what Nathalie was saying, though I could be wrong). I do not ever want to see Sam off the show. I love Sam.
In addition, nothing [i]has[/i] to happen a certain way. There are always a million ways to do everything. Many people believe that isolating Dean and Cas in Purgatory would force Dean to come to terms more quickly with several aspects of his character development. That doesn’t mean he can’t do it with Sam there, but for certain issues he is more likely to address them without Sam present. Dean likes to shunt off his emotions and issues, and concentrate on the things at hand, which usually means Sam (out of no fault of his own) gets the brunt of Dean’s concern. Dean does not like taking care of himself. Removing the option of avoiding his issues would be helpful, to a certain extent, is the only point to this strain of thought.
People care about Dean, some of them exclusively. That’s perfectly fine, it’s nice for all the characters to have champions. It’s a problem when that causes them to hate on other characters or other fans. That should not happen.
๐
[quote]No human being is capable of understanding and helping Dean except Castiel?[/quote]
Well it would make a nice change to see Sam do that.
It would, and Sam does his best. He’ll be better at it, this next season, because he won’t be crippled by his broken wall. But Sam can’t fully understand what Dean is going through (though he does try, because he’s awesome), for a couple of reasons.
Dean became a torturer in Hell. That’s something that no one living on the earth (and certainly no one in his immediate circle) can sympathize with him about. That’s where Castiel met him, at his very lowest. His soul was rotting, and he was turning into a demon. Castiel (an angel! A being of Heaven!) saw him that way, and still believed he deserved to be saved. He spoke those words with a power and certainty only he could possess, having seen Dean in Hell, and still willing to look past Dean’s eyes and into his soul. Castiel was willing to give up everything for Dean (and did).
Also, Castiel is one of the few characters who doesn’t berate Dean for having severe (and sometimes crippling) emotional responses to things. Castiel just accepts his anger and depression and incapacity to “move on” with words like, “You’re just a man.” and “It doesn’t matter; you’re human.” To someone who suffers depression, even this much can seem like a life raft. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the series don’t know how to handle Dean’s depression. Elliot Ness tells him to get over himself, Frank tells him to smile and be professional because that’s the job. Bobby even (himself a suicidal depressive) thinks the best way to deal is to focus on the next case, or the next drink. What Dean needed was a real chance to come to terms with his anger, and its root. He experienced some healing when he got the chance to talk to ‘Emmanuel’, and when he was able to confront Cas in the next episodes.
Seeing Dean able to finally deal with some of what’s been bothering him, and impart some forgiveness for everything, has been like removing a load from everyone’s shoulders. It’s not a solution, but it’s a positive turning point.
๐
[quote]I think they need to reforge their bonds. This can be done with the help of Garth, Jodie, Charlie, new hunters, or whatever.[/quote]
And it can be done with Cas since yes, it is possible for adult men to have friendships outside of their brothers without those friendships impinging on their love for their sibling.
[quote]Cas being in the mix has only added to the estrangement for 4 seasons.[/quote]
But of course Sam choosing Ruby over his brother didn’t.
[quote]Cas did not help with Dean’s issues he worsened them. [/quote]
In your opinion.
[quote]In your opinion.[/quote]
Yes, since President Obama and Mitt Romney haven’t weighed in on the all important question of Castiel’s place in Supernatural I AM in fact giving my opinion. I didn’t even imply that I was speaking for others.
[quote]But of course Sam choosing Ruby over his brother didn’t.[/quote]
Ruby has been gone for three seasons. You don’t want to forgive Sam, fine. But Dean has, so I’m going with him on this.
[quote]And it can be done with Cas since yes, it is possible for adult men to have friendships outside of their brothers without those friendships impinging on their love for their sibling.[/quote]
Well IN MY OPINION Cas has always worked to keep Sam and Dean at odds, sometimes intentionally and sometimes unintentionally . Season four it was part of his mission. In season five he couldn’t keep from reminding Dean that Sam was “an abomination” . In season six he didn’t tell Dean that Sam was back or that he was soulless, then he broke Sam’s mind. Season seven, Cas was barely there but he was trying to kill the world and the result of breaking Sam’s mind was to send Dean into a deeper depression and leave Sam psychotic. He took Sam’s hallucinations, but then did his best to hide from the repercussions of his actions and flirt with Meg for who knows what reasons.
Ruby at least got called on her actions and no one thinks she was doing good and she died and stayed dead for her evil. Cas, not so much.
Note From Alice – I got a complaint about this post. The person thought it was provoking percysowner. I do believe the post is on the antagonistic side, but I’ll allow it. Please I ask, keep the tone a bit more civil, but you are allowed to stand up for your side of things. We try to be respectful here.
[quote]I didn’t even imply that I was speaking for others.[/quote]
It was opinion as fact.
[quote]Ruby has been gone for three seasons.[/quote]
And Cas was barely in S7 or S6 and yet he somehow manages to be an impediment to the ~intimate bond~ between the brothers.
[quote] Well IN MY OPINION Cas has always worked to keep Sam and Dean at odds, sometimes intentionally and sometimes unintentionally .[/quote]
And Sam has worked to keep Sam and Dean at odds too but of course that doesn’t come into it with you, does it? I don’t know why you don’t just ‘fess up that you simply cannot stand to think that Dean might care deeply for someone who isn’t little Sammy.
[quote] In season five he couldn’t keep from reminding Dean that Sam was “an abomination”[/quote]
Oh, you mean that totally throwaway comment he made when he was clearly hungover and depressed? Please.
[quote] In season six he didn’t tell Dean that Sam was back[/quote]
Neither did Bobby.
[quote] or that he was soulless[/quote]
Er, yes, in fact he did. As soon as he found this out he told Dean. I suggest you rewatch 6.07.[/quote]
[quote] then he broke Sam’s mind. [/quote]
How do you think Sam’s mind would have fared if Raphael had defeated Cas?
[quote]Season seven, Cas was barely there but he was trying to kill the world[/quote]
While under the influence of Purgatory souls. Or is it only Sam who gets that kind of free pass?
[quote]and the result of breaking Sam’s mind was to send Dean into a deeper depression [/quote]
And losing Cas contributed to that depression.
[quote]He took Sam’s hallucinations, but then did his best to hide from the repercussions of his actions [/quote]
Because he had been driven crazy by them…
[quote] and flirt with Meg for who knows what reasons. [/quote]
Not quite as bad as Sam choosing Ruby though, huh?
[quote]Ruby at least got called on her actions[/quote]
And so did Cas, when he took Sam’s trauma away.
No Deans depression has been there ever since his Dad and probably before. He was also put out that Castiel would use him after all he and his buddies did to him and his brothers his whole life.
You can’t shoot someone for their own protection. It doesn’t work that way.
He also lied to them and manipulated them and used them to win his own little Raphael war. Didn’t care that he was the reason Sam had to kill his Gramps or that Bobby is dead. Hey, all for a good cause right. If this was Castiels story then hey he can be the hero but its not its Sam and Deans and he’s treated them like crap under his feet, their merely human right.
Of course, Dean’s depression has been an issue for a long time, since before the fourth season and Hell. Clare said “Cas [b]contributed[/b] to that depression”, she didn’t say Cas caused it entirely. Of course he was disappointed and distressed that Castiel lied to him and used him, (which was one of the very reasons Cas tried to keep his war a secret, so that he [i]wouldn’t[/i] be using Dean and Sam).
The war with Raphael was not ‘little’. He was planning on finishing what his Father had started, and continuing the Apocalypse, potentially negating all of Sam and Dean’s sacrifices and efforts thus far. Raphael wanted the end of earth and the destruction of humanity. Of course Castiel was going to fight him.
Of course Castiel cared about Sam killing grandpa and the fact that Bobby died. We saw him mourning with the brothers when they burned Bobby’s flask in the finale. We saw him comforting Dean in the past the first time Grandpa Campbell died. Of course Castiel cared about these things.
Also, Castiel is not excused for his mistakes, especially not by himself. Just because mistakes can be rationalized, does not mean they were right. Castiel acknowledges that he chose wrongly (the curse of [i]having a choice to make[/i], Free Will being a catch-twenty-two at the best of times) and he now struggles under the weight of massive guilt. But he’s also trying his best to right his wrongs. Just like the brothers. His journey closely parallels the brothers’ journeys.
But one fault he has not had (since turning his back on Heaven and aligning his loyalties with the Winchesters), was intentionally keeping the brothers apart, or even working towards that goal. What has most often kept the brothers apart in the series has been their own autonomy, influenced by circumstances, but ultimately decided by themselves.
[quote]I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on execution. I’d actually invested a lot of hope in that because, as you said, the ideas have been pretty good the last couple of years too.
But from these spoilers, the ideas themselves aren’t appealing to me much this year. Last year, I was hoping they delivered on the picture the interviews were painting. Right now, I’m hoping they have something better planned that they’re not articulating well enough or else are deliberately hiding.
Even allowing for the best possible execution, I’m not too thrilled. Politics, even supernatural politics, is not the Winchesters’ forte. And unlike Butch and Sundance and even ‘noir’, there aren’t many elements of Indiana Jones that make me think of Supernatural.
But it’s early yet. Hopefully other Comic-Con spoilers appeal to me more.[/quote]
I couldn’t agree more w/you. There is nothing apealing about these spoilers to me. I haven’t seen [i]Raiders [/i] or [i]Butch and Sundance[/i].
All I hope for is a good story, and I don’t have much hope for even that!
I’m looking forward to season 8. I personally loved the angels vs. demons.
Wow, after reading all these intense and often well argued posts, this is the one that has stood out as the most refreshing. Nice and simply put. Thank you! I concur.
I’ve read all the comments and just have a few to make before giving my very simple opinon on these spoilers:
(1) Sam and Dean can be together AND grow separately as individuals. The two are not mutually exclusive so I don’t understand why people keep saying they can’t grow unless they’re apart. Sam and Dean have been apart in many episodes, but still “together.” Now, if you’re wanting Sam and Dean to start getting separate hotel rooms and basically leading separate lives, you would be, IMO, moving further and further away from the premise and heart of the show. I don’t see that happening.
(2) Why are people assuming you won’t see Dean in Purgatory? It seems like his story will be told in flashbacks. It’s not like it will be ignored completely. You’ll get your Purgatory story, but in FBs. What’s the problem w/that?
(3) The only way to do the Purgatory right would be to have the boys separated at least half, if not the entire, season. One episode could focus on Dean (and Cas if he was there), and the next could focus on Sam and his efforts to rescue Dean while also completing other hunts like in Season 1.
That idea does not appeal to me. I’m a person who has been watching since Season 1, Episode 1, and I’m in it for the brothers and their relationship. I have ZERO problems w/side characters. In fact, I was hoping Sam would develop a few new hunter friends and connections during the separation, but I guess that ain’t happening.
I believe most viewers are like myself and watch to see Sam and Dean hunt creatures and save people. And that doe not mean we don’t want them to have other connections, but for us, they are the HEART of the show. The brothers’ relationship IS the show, IMO. So, instead of keeping them separated for a long stretch of time, I think the writers decided to reunite them quickly but also give the individual stories in FBs. It makes sense to me. you don’t want to tick off the core audience, and it may be unbelievable to some, but I believe that core audience watches for Sam and Dean. That’s JMO.
As far as the spoilers are concerned, I’ll just say this: I wasn’t excited after the season finale, and I’m not excited now. Nothing that has been spoiled thus far as excited me about the new season. I will watch, but I have very low – practically non-existent – expectations. Actually, I’m expecting to be disappointed in whatever they do. I have ZERO faith in the writers. I didn’t care about Kevin Tran this year, and I still don’t care about him. I don’t care about Sam’s GF. I don’t really care about Dean and Cas’s whacky adventures in Purgatory. I’m very “meh” about the spoilers.
*squints* what’s ‘the vocal majority’? And how can I not have heard of it? Is it like really old or something? Or new? I’m a pretty big Cas fan…(I heard of Operation Trenchcoat-it died). I googled it and nothing came up.
[quote]*squints* what’s ‘the vocal majority’? And how can I not have heard of it? Is it like really old or something? Or new? I’m a pretty big Cas fan…(I heard of Operation Trenchcoat-it died). I googled it and nothing came up.[/quote]
There is no such thing รขโฌโ the poster is making it up, just like the Silent Majority are apparently making up the fact they are a majority of fandom.
[b]If the only way Dean can be an individual is without Sam, that is a show that doesn’t interest me[/b]
Also it means you’re saying you are not interest in Dean at all. Not as his own person, just as an extension of Sam.
Sorry, since you only devoted one half of one sentence with any interest in Sam I was responding to the main points of the article. Let me rephrase If the only way Dean can be an individual is without Sam, that is a show that doesn’t interest me. If the only way Sam can show his (already established) independence and the only way Sam can experience emotional growth is without Dean, that show does not interest me. I am interested in a show with BOTH Sam AND Dean helping each other to grow.
[quote]I am interested in a show with BOTH Sam AND Dean helping each other to grow.[/quote]
Yup! This is what I want as well!
This season failed b/c Dean could have been used to help Sam through his problems/hallucinations until it got too much for both of them. Aside from HCW, Dean didn’t really ask how Sam was coping.
Sam could have helped Dean w/his depression or whatever it was, but aside from like one conversation or rather plea to Dean to not get himself killed, Sam didn’t ask Dean how he was coping or feeling.
They isolated the brothers and kept them to their stories. It was weird and disjointed, and didn’t make for a good season, IMO.
[quote]I am interested in a show with BOTH Sam AND Dean helping each other to grow.[/quote]
AND Cas for me. And a heck of a lot of other fans.
You’re right, and it goes against Dean’s character to not try to care for Sam while he’s with him (even as he struggles to let go and allow Sam to be an adult) which is why time apart would be healthy at least for Dean. It would force him to face himself, instead of focusing on Sam, for a bit. I look forward to seeing how he struggled in Purgatory, even if only in flash-back form. I also look forward to seeing how Sam dealt. I’m glad that they will have more adventures as a team, but I am still a little disappointed that we won’t get a short arc actively (instead of retroactively) in Purgatory. But it will be good to see the brothers together again, especially after such a long hiatus! ๐
So much fandom wank over spoilers good lord..
Well personally I don’t think you all should complain, especially those that wanted Sera gone and cheered when they brought in Jeremy Carver.
So either watch the show or don’t your choice, but don’t bring the wank here. (wait to late for that)
As for the spoilers themselves, I am in the wait and see camp ๐ not thrilled with more angels/demons heaven hell crap but again I will wait and see. Wasn’t a big fan of Kevin so eh on that, would rather it focus on the brothers instead. But again will wait and see, like I did with season 7 and came out pleasantly surprised and enjoyed it much better than season 6.
Basically bottom line is I will wait and see before making rude comments and wanking over nothing. =)
Okay I am off to kill crap on SWTOR.
Scrolling through this, I have to say, what is is all this talk about extreme fans, the show’s biggest supporters, being so terrible? The ratings have been low for a while, and I’m convinced it is the money the show makes outside of ratings that have kept the show alive. It’s the biggests fans that pay to go to conventions, buy the dvd and blu-ray box sets, and help them win covers on tv guide and two people’s choice awards. Not to mention all the charities they contribute to.
Extreme fans are the the most opinionated, and obnoxious, but also the most passionate.
Besides, every person on this board sought this discussion out, making us all more than just a casual fan.
Touche’ ๐
I’m sure that the ancilliary money made by the show in syndication, foreign broadcast sales and DVD sales does enter into the equation for the studio – Warner Brothers — but the network doesn’t see a dime of that money. While ratings have been ‘low for a while’ as you say, they have actually been quite steady for the CW.
True, true. They’re alright, but not great, compared to other networks. I just meant they’ve been steadily dropping over the last two years, which I postulate is a combination of the shoddy writing, the move to friday, and the CW losing viewers overall. Jensen and others have said multiple times that they never expected the show to last this long, but the passionate fans made it happen. Shows like Vampire Diaries and Supernatural are a god send for the network because they generate such loyal followings.
I’m not sure how ratings effect renewal anymore, they’re not nearly as important as they used to be, but they’re not unimportant either. Hopefully the move to Wednesday to will accompany an increase in ratings. I’ll keep my fingers crossed anyway!
all this crap about the brothers need time apart/to be separated, to grow…… um. You do realize that they WERE apart for all that time until Dean gets himself out of purgatory…even though they might not show that time apart onscreen. Right……?
And you just realize that we won’t get to see it, just told in flashbacks (that could be god knows how short). that’s the same as telling me Dean’s story in hell in simple flashbacks (flashes), which is basically nothing. I don’t get to experience Dean’s side of things or Sam’s side in one freaking episode LIVE. Just impressions of the past. and that is not something I’m interested in. I also suggest people reading up on flashbacks and the problem of using them when you try to tell a story.
Sure, there are pros and cons to every storytelling device, so what’s the point here?
I would guess that budget has a lot to do with it — Show doesn’t have budget for prolonged stints in Purgatory – so they’ll do a combination of show & tell about it.
Since we don’t know what’s actually going to be happening, perhaps whatever goes on in Purgatory isn’t the major thing to be focused on. I do agree that its too bad – the whole idea of Purgatory did kinda capture the imagination of fandom. Perhaps its better left to the fan fiction writers to fill in the ‘details’.
[quote]No honey[/quote]
Dont be so patronizing.
[quote]It’s posting about what you think about the show and or spoilers. [/quote]
Yes, it is รขโฌโ and for some reason you seem to take great umbrage at the fact a large portion of this fandom loves Castiel just as much as it does the brothers.
[quote]you can’t accept one part of fandom because you like what they are preashing, but diss the other side of fandom because they are screaming about something you don’t want. It’s hypocritical.[/quote]
Yet you seem to be very hypocritical in that you were the first one to diss the Cas fans for their complaining? Ohรขโฌยฆ is it only hypocrisy when Casfans do it? I see.
Please keep the offense and temper down everyone. I think a few of you are putting words into people’s mouths, which is against our rules generally, but there’s been a lot of that in this thread that I can’t control right now. So keep the sensitivity to a minimum.
Alice, do you know when the issue will be available in stores??
There we go! A simple question I can answer. Yes, according to the copy I received yesterday, it is printed on the front page it will be available in stores on July 10th. It will also be available for download on Kindle and Nook on that date.
I’m going to put out a general news article describing what’s in the issue and the date it will be available today. One that won’t be limited to the spoiler section. You know, when I’m not moderating hundreds of posts!
Imagine the feral and ferocious Winchesters, fighting through countless Purgatory monsters, until they save themselves.
OMG it would have been so epic, in the literal meaning of the word. I’d have loved this through to the mid-hiatus, then continue with the save the Kevin/get Crowley plot. Imagine all the old characters they could have met. sigh*
Am I alone in thinking the fans are better at imagining stories than the writers lately? What is the problem there? It seems to write itself, and it seems it would take so little to fix it and make everyone happy.
[quote]”The Devil Is In The Details” – a “Supernatural” trivia quiz by Alice Jester (gee, I wonder who that could be???)[/quote]
I don’t know how many articles you have done about supernatural in magazines but I am really happy hearing this news…congratulations Alice
[quote]- Will season 8 hinge on Sam trying to save Dean from Purgatory? “No,” Singer answers. An amount of time passes before Dean finds his way back from Purgatory (not specified how long). They’re planning on doing various flashbacks through the season showing what happened and what Sam did in that time while Dean was away. [/quote]
no problem ..just hope the flashback is better than i know what you did last summer and at least on par with the man who would be king (timing wise also)
[quote]Why use flashbacks? Because fans usually hate it when the brothers are separated, so that’s why they’re being reunited quickly. [/quote]
I am not generally happy about flashbacks (not only in SPN) because getting it right takes lots of skills
[quote]What about Castiel? They’re still framing that out, but Cas will be back a number of times. [/quote]
OK
[quote]Will Kevin the Prophet be back? “Kevin is an integral part of the year.” [/quote]
OK
[quote]What does Crowley want with Kevin? The King of Hell needs someone to read the word of God. “Every year we start with a theme — this is our “Raiders of The Lost Ark” year. This season-long story will be a quest. It’s about Kevin and the tablets and the Word of God.”[/quote]
No comments.will wait to see how they go about it as the reason as to why Crowley needs this is not known
[quote]They would like guest characters like Sheriff Mills, Charlie and Garth back, but nothing is concrete yet. “And there’s one new character that we’re talking about. It’s a monster that Dean meets in Purgatory.” [/quote]
Good news[quote]Who will be the big bad this season? It’s another angels and demons year. “It’s not apocalyptic but about who can gain control and keep demons in Hell or angels in Heaven.”[/quote]
too vague to comment
Overall i am more excited about s08 because of the spoilers
I don’t usually reply with disdain to any of the other posters, but I am so incredibly tired of the constant berating of a specific character that it is making me turn from the show all together.
No matter what the article is about, the comments (by the same people) always wind up being negativity directed towards Castiel. It’s bordering on obsessive and slightly disturbing.
I apologize to the writer of this article for my rant. It was a wonderful article. Unfortunately, between the spoilers and the comments I find myself disappointed in the direction the show seems to be headed. I feel like I am slowly loosing an old friend.
You and me both. I feel like the show doesn’t care anymore. And I feel like the fandom is just turning me off the show altogether. That Singer has such a skewed perception of the fandom makes me even more sad. “because that is what everybody wants” hahaha yeah right…
Usually the spoilers are slightly misleading, but if the show actually does go in this direction, I really don’t think that it will be the type of show that I want to watch. I have hoped, beyond hope that the show would find it’s way back to the grandeur or seasons 4 and 5, but the more spoilers I read, the more my hopes are dashed.
I feel so sad now and the fandom just makes it worse. The funny thing is, I was drawn more into the show because of the fans. It’s funny how things change over time.
This! At this point we just have to wait and see what Carver has to say. But I don’t have much hopes for season 8, for a coherent storyline for Dean or for Castiel not being used as a tool. The spoilers didn’t say much about him, but I’m expecting the worst. It’s actually better this way. At least for my sanity.
i’m with you nathalie-i always thought singer was as much the problem in s6 ansd s7 as was sera. they both had this thing about cas. so they made cas more important than he should have been. and made dean so unlike dean it was down right ridiculous. the head of the cw wanted to make the cw more attractive to the male audience. well-the spoilers that have been released-and the fact that cas and the angel/demon thing is still around is not going to get the job done. the head of the cw loves the brothers so i am hoping he steps in and tells singer and carver and the writers to get on the ball and make spn about the winchester brothers and the impala not cas and the angel/demon thing.
I politely disagree. My younger brother is a part of the male audience for Supernatural, and he won’t watch the show without Castiel. He watched right up until Castiel died, and then refused to watch it until Castiel came back. He loves the angel-arc. Please try not to speak for everyone, because there are many who hold different standpoints. Thank you.
[quote]I feel like I am slowly loosing an old friend.[/quote] Well said.
I share your discouragement. :/ Fandom can be a beautiful and constructive community. It can be equally destructive and spiteful. It’s okay to take a break, if you’d like to. It might be healthier, lol. ๐
But I’d encourage you to hold onto hope, since (as you pointed out below) the spoilers are usually skewed and misleading. They love throwing out red herrings. Until we watch it, we just won’t know. But you’re not alone, and there are many supportive fans out there, who back your opinion (like me). ๐
Well, that dahes a lot of my excitement.
I guess if I’m lucky Dean will get to be at least a quarter as important as Crowley and Kevin Tran will be to the story. Most probably he won’t though. Guess he would have more luck getting a real story if he had only just been introduced into the show.
There isn’t much for Sam either but at least he got an entire 5 year arc with the big sole hero ending all to himself before.
The only semi-interesting thing I read is Dean finding his own way out? Maybe that will give him some confidence – and certainly more than passively being saved, how would that bolster [i]Dean’s[/i] self-esteem? – and badassery back and lead to a great lack of anything like soulseaching or angsting over the whateverness of it all. If I never seen an emo scene again for the character, it will still be too soon.
I know, right?
Dean’s in Hell. Sam’s in Hell. Dean’s in Purgatory. I think it would have been much more interesting to see both Sam and Dean in Purgatory. That would have given them a whole new canvas in which to play. I like that idea more than just seeing Dean (or Sam) in Purgatory.
[quote]Imagine the feral and ferocious Winchesters, fighting through countless Purgatory monsters, until they save themselves.
OMG it would have been so epic, in the literal meaning of the word. I’d have loved this through to the mid-hiatus, then continue with the save the Kevin/get Crowley plot. Imagine all the old characters they could have met. sigh*
Am I alone in thinking the fans are better at imagining stories than the writers lately? What is the problem there? It seems to write itself, and it seems it would take so little to fix it and make everyone happy.[/quote]
Great post! I couldn’t agree more w/you, Laurie. That would have been epic, and like you said by mid-season, they could have returned and went w/their Kevin/Crowley plot!
And, no, you are definitely not alone in thinking the fans have better imaginations than the writers. I could list several interesting ways Sam’s hallucinations/Hell pain could have played out this year, and none involve him rubbing a healed scar on his hand! LOL!
So many comments, most fun to read and speculate with and about. But, can anyone tell me one time that a spoiler and all the following frenzy really came true. Just one time? I think they enjoy misleading with just simple statements we all go crazy over. Just saying………
I’m really hoping for Misha to be a regular again! I think it’s pretty safe to say that the majority of fans love Cas and want to see a lot more of him.
I love Sam and Dean too, but Cas is my favorite. ๐ Little disappointed we won’t get to see much of Purgatory, though…
(Edited by Alice. Sorry, but the first part of this is not a true statement. Cannot be proven. As for the rest of it, I’ll allow it with an “In your opinion” disclaimer.)
Frankly if the head of the cw is looking for supernatural ratings to go up instead of staying the same-keeping cas and the angel/demon thing front and center isn’t going to do it. men do not like cas. period. he makes the brothers balless. the presence of cas makes dean’s character so unlike what he should be its down right disgusting. men want dean and sam bad ass-they want the impala. not cas pointing a fingure at dean’s head and going somewhere. and cas giving dean those drawn out gazes.
Edited by Alice – this comment was reported and I agree, it’s very disrespectful to the poster. I’m editing it. Please, keep the tone civil.
[quote]no the majority don’t want cas/misha as a regular[/quote]
Actually, yes, the majority do… I decided to do a bit of research and the main brothers-only campaign is “Silent Majority”, correct? They’ve got 175 followers on Twitter.
Not a bad number, and more probably follow them on Tumblr. In order to compare apples to apples, I decided to look up and see how many followers Save Castiel had.
Save Castiel has 1,238 followers last time I checked. More probably follow the campaign on Tumblr. So, by the numbers, it looks like more people want more Cas.
Feel free to look it up if you like – the numbers may have changed since this morning.
^_^
Thank you for at least supporting your argument! I do appreciate that.
I’ll definitely allow this post since this particular response was to others, but I’m sending a general warning out to everyone. I’ve already edited comments up above that are geared toward Misha hate. This is not relevant to the discussion. Try to keep talk about other fandom groups out of this, since the topic is season 8 spoilers.
No problem! I try not to say anything I can’t back up, especially when I’m talking about others’ viewpoints as well as my own. >_< Sorry about the tangent — thank you for letting the comment stand!
Please ask about the brothers relationship and the heart of the show. And if the boys are going to fight this together and be real partners but more importantly partners that are brothers and vice versa if you know what I mean.
Get back to that real tangible brother feel between Jensen and Jared/Sam and Dean. Use that chemistry that made us fall in love with Supernatural in the first place.
Well, I want the show to focus on Sam and Dean, and I want it to have only those 2 main characters. Everyone else should be secondary, imo.
But I don’t join campains of any kind, I don’t have a Twitter, etc, but I let my opinion on other sites. So, sorry, that’s not a proof of anything.
Fandom is more than Twitter/Tumblr, not everyone is part of those networks, and those networks don’treally reflect the while fandom.
Social media feedback is a reflection of the fandom, not in its entirety, but in part. The creators of Supernatural have assured fans that they watch our posts and our blogs, so they consider them important. ๐ I also consider social media participation in a fandom important, for community and morale particularly. It’s good to have fans willing to campaign for what they want, since it shows passion, but it’s wrong for fans to believe they can force their own way down the creators’ throats. That’s not the way artistic endeavors work. ๐ But, the creators are attuned to our voices, whether pleased or unhappy, because the length of their story (especially in television) depends on our viewership. I’m glad they care.
No Castiel lovers actually reply on a number of different fake accounts to up the count, just like Misha’s twitter. Don’t be fooled. Alot of people left because of Castiels/angels storyline.
A quote from a family member ‘tell me when this shows about the brothers again’
You are saying “Castiel lovers” as an all-inclusive generalization. I am a Castiel fan, and I use real accounts on Tumblr and Twitter, so I feel affronted by your accusation, which comes with no actual proof. You cannot prove that people’s accounts are fake. Even if a single fan joins Twitter to follow one person, and never ever posts anything, but maybe votes in Twitter competitions, their account is still real. If a single fan makes five different accounts and they’re all very active, we still can’t actually tell unless we have IP address trackers or something. You really shouldn’t assume things like that and then treat it as fact, to disparage a whole group of fans (Castiel-lovers, in this instance). It’s rude.
These numbers are meaningless.
Here’s another (also meaningless) interpretation of Twitter numbers:
Misha has what? 500,000 followers and only a thousand of them support Save Castiel? So obviously the vast majority of people who follow Misha on Twitter don’t want him to be on Supernatural anymore.
All those numbers mean is that Save Castiel has 1,238 followers on Twitter and Silent Majority has 175 followers on Twitter. There is no way to extrapolate those numbers that means anything else.
Also 2,165 individual signatures on Change.org, voting to keep Castiel on the show as a regular. ๐
[url]http://www.change.org/petitions/supernatural-producers-writers-keep-castiel-for-season-8-and-return-misha-collins-as-a-series-regular[/url]
He has a lot of support, we should stay encouraged! The Winchester brothers love Castiel, and so do we. It’s good. ๐
Are you kidding me? Are you a man? Can you speak for all male members of the Supernatural family? I personally [i]know men in real life[/i] who love Castiel, and who won’t watch the show without him. One of them is my younger brother, and another is one of my university friends. Castiel does not make Dean’s character ‘unlike what he should be’, but he does bring out different sides to Dean that we wouldn’t otherwise see. He helps Dean grow. That’s not a bad thing. (By the way, Castiel is also pretty bad-ass. Warrior angel? Dangerous demigod? Super-charged supernatural entity? All very cool, all very b.a. One of the many reasons my male friends like him.)
The majority of the people I talk to like Cas. I’m sorry that we seem to disagree over this.
Oh I disagree alot of guys would hate Castiel and do. I knew a family that the Dad and his 3 boys watched Supernatural and now don’t. Why? Because of Castiel and the angels storyline. Where are the brothers, they actually watch Supernatural but would rather watch S1-3. And my husband thinks I’m watching gay porn and he used to like SPN.
I certainly didn’t say that there weren’t men who disliked Castiel. I said there [b]were men who liked him[/b], and enjoyed his contribution to the show to such an extent that they stopped watching when Castiel died. No one can speak for all the male members of the SPN fandom, especially not me, because I identify as a woman. (Shrug.)
Also, both of the guys I mentioned above, believe that Castiel is in love with Dean, but it doesn’t mean they respect or like his character any less.
In my opinion, men who automatically label a show as ‘gay porn’ because it contains too much emotion or because two male characters show a certain chemistry, are casting those qualities in a negative light where they shouldn’t. Emotion (and emotional expression) is healthy and natural. Chemistry happens between people of all genders. Labeling neutral qualities like emotion or chemistry or dialogue as “gay” is reductive, especially to the person doing the labeling. It’s also using “gay” as a negative adjective, which is demeaning. Also, people who label something as pornographic which is not, are just seeking to shame what they are labeling by bringing in our general cultural aversion to open (and non-heterosexual) sexuality.
My two cents, for what it’s worth.
I can also confirm from personal experience that Tia is wrong. The men I know who watch the show also like Castiel. I know guys from their forties on down who watch it. Hell, my 12 year old niece who recently started watching went and asked all her friends (she’s a tomboy, so they’re all guys) who already watched Supernatural what they thought of Cas and claimed it was a universal like at her school.
Actually, I think Sam and Dean are plenty off putting all by themselves. ๐ It’s a well known stereotype of the show that Sam and Dean cry a lot. Too much talking and crying is certainly a common complaint among my friends who completely gave up or only rarely watch. So if any character is making Dean seem less manly, it’s probably Dean.
Also agree with you Beth. Castiel, notably, has never cried and is either the silent type or tends to complain in a more aggressive way (ie the “I gave everything for you” while glaring or beating Dean to a pulp). I believe this is part of his appeal. He’s definitely a badass, even if he can whip out the puppy dog eyes and look on glumly, he’s not one to actually talk about his feelings. Also the comedy aspects, which I’ve heard some people disparage, seem to be a plus amongst my guy friends.
Perhaps he has never cried because he is an angel, not a man like Sam or Dean, and not wired like a human being.
While being an angel plays into it, I think it’s also a personality point with Cas, since when he is within his human vessel he’s able to show full range of emotion. We see him with tears in his eyes on several occasions, he just doesn’t let them fall. He’s not used to strong emotions, probably finds them distasteful, uncomfortable, and inconvenient, lol! ๐
Well, no. I prefer the mechanic of 2 lead characters plus a few secondary characters that have lesser roles.
3 main characters is too much and does not feel the same.
Well I disagree. It feels great to me when Team Free Will is working together, or Bobby or Castiel is shown living their lives and trying to complete their goals. Three or four main characters would be more than okay with me. Lots of shows have more than two characters, like Vampire Diaries, Being Human, Grimm, Smallville, etc. I don’t think it’d change the show much either, except in having more stories and a different point of view from which to tell them. More characters wouldn’t mean core aspects or the format of the show would have to drastically change from what it is now either.
I agree. Episodes like Weekend at Bobby’s gave a new and critical look into the hunter life, the boys’ history, and Bobby himself. The show suffers a loss when beloved characters like Bobby (and Cas, and Rufus, and John, and others) are removed. They have a lot to offer, and shouldn’t be dispensed of lightly. ๐
If this article has shown anything, it’s that the “majority” of fans don’t agree on anything– especially Castiel.
^^^THIS^^^
I agree, people should stop referencing a nebulous majority that no one can prove. Thank goodness for the massive amounts of fans who love Dean, Sam, and Castiel, both respectively and together. ๐ This is a good show, with great characters.
Yeah . . . . that’s what I’m not understanding either. Dean and Cas can repair their friendship/relationship WITHOUT Sam being completely out of the picture. I mean they developed the friendship w/Sam IN the picture so I’m utterly confused as to why Sam has to be gone for them to repair it?
Like I said, I believe it’s more that some people just don’t want Sam on the show, and hey, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion but that (i.e., Sam off the show) is never gonna happen.
If Dean and Cas have some great bonding scene, is it ruined b/c Dean gets in the Impala w/Sam? Why would it be?
I think it’s less about wanting Sam off the show and more about where the finale left the characters: Sam on Earth, Dean and Castiel in Purgatory. That’s what the finale gave us, that’s what fans were working with.
I personally wanted to see Purgatory. It seemed inherently cool. And since Sam’s on Earth, that meant he wasn’t a part of my wonderings about what would happen in Purgatory. That doesn’t mean I want him off the show.
At the end – it seemed to me that Castiel left Dean alone in Purgatory. He said something to the effect of ‘We gotta get out of here.’ and then the wings sound – he was gone.
So at the end of S7 I thought Show left us with: Sam on Earth, Dean in Purgatory, Crowley, Meg & Kevin (presumably) in Hell and Castiel’s whereabouts unknown. Also the remaining Leviathans were still also on Earth needing to be dealt with.
I don’t think Cas left Dean in Purgatory (at least, not of his own volition!). He decided to join Dean in fighting Dick, expecting that they would die. Had Cas died, he would have gone to Purgatory anyway (most likely). When he woke Dean up, he immediately began using ‘we’ terms. “We’re more likely to be ripped to shreds.” It shows that he considers himself [i]with[/i] Dean in this. If he did indeed fly away, it was probably to fight monsters, find a hiding place, or ascertain whether there was a way out. I personally believe he is still in Purgatory with Dean. Since Mark Sheppard implied that Crowley had something to do with putting Cas in Purgatory, it wouldn’t make much sense to me for him to snatch Cas back out so quickly. But maybe the show will surprise me. We’ll see, right?
My comments were concerning this idea that Dean and Sam have to be separated in order for Dean to repair his relationship w/Castiel. It had nothing to do w/Purgatory. I find that idea strange.
Just b/c Dean and Sam are together doesn’t mean Dean can’t have his friendship w/Castiel or repair their friendship. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Of course they can! ๐ They are friends, all three of them.
I certainly don’t want Sam off the show! Never! I love Sam to death. And I agree, it would never happen (at least, barring some extreme life-altering situation with Jared mid-season or something). Very few people want Sam off the show. I wouldn’t worry about that at all, it’s a ridiculous notion.
But that’s not what a lot of fans are disappointed about. Also, there are some issues that Dean has that don’t involve Sam, and can’t be solved with his input. Purgatory would have given him the chance to wrap those up efficiently. (I think it still will happen like that a little, even if we only get to see it in flashback form.)
I think it’s a little premature to be too disappointed over these hypothetical situations, yet. Just because there’s a time jump doesn’t mean there is no Purgatory. I look forward to seeing the character growth and new plots that come out of Purgatory, and how the writers weave that into the active narrative. ๐
Again, why must Dean resolve whatever personal issue he has in Purgatory? Why can’t Dean be around Sam to resolve this personal issue? What is this personal issue? Are you saying Sam is the reason for this personal issue or that Sam exacerbates the issue? That’s the only reason I can think of that Dean would have to be away from Sam in order to resolve his issue.
I’m not sure I understand what you’re talking about.
[quote]Are you saying Sam is the reason for this personal issue or that Sam exacerbates the issue?[/quote]
Yes, lol. Some of Dean’s issues definitely involve Sam, especially after this season. But mostly, I see Dean using Sam (by no fault of his own!) as an excuse to hide from his own emotions. As long as Dean is in “protector-mode” he justifies not caring for himself. But it’s not impossible for him to solve his issues in Sam’s company — we’ve seen him do it before, after all. It’s just slightly more likely, sometimes. ๐
Okay, since we seem to still be talking about Misha and his Twitter and his fans, let me try to address a couple of things:
First, Supernatural has a “cult following”. In this context, it is a positive thing, as it just means that there is a dedicated group of fans who support the show and follow its progress, participate in its conventions, and promote it through many means. The words “cult following” have a negative connotation, but don’t always necessitate a bad thing.
Second, how might one differentiate Misha’s fans from other groups of fans who follow an actor for his body work and personality, rather than for a specific role? What makes his group of fans a cult following, instead of just his fans? Their passion? Their participation? Their sense of community? Those are all good things, that I see every day from fans who bond over mutual love of an actor. When does it stop being a cult following — is it reliant on numbers or apathy? Basically, the broad and positive definition of “cult following” implies that fan culture is basically made up of cult followings. Which would be okay, in my book, so long as it gave people a sense of belonging and a place to be genuinely excited about something.
Third, if Misha’s “cult following” brings more viewers to Supernatural, then let’s throw a party. More viewers, more ratings, higher funding, more support for the actors’ charities, you name it. (Most people who watch Supernatural fall in love with the brothers and their story, so it’s not a bad thing, by any stretch.) And if they just watch for Misha, then that’s their right, like it’s your right to just watch for the brothers.
I don’t know exactly what you mean about his support and online popularity not “transcend[ing] to people as a whole”. But this I know, his personality certainly does transcend the show, and touches people wholesale. He’s very charming, outside of Twitter. That’s part of his thing. The fans who meet him at conventions are overwhelmingly charmed by him. Other celebrities who meet him are charmed (sometimes they even go so far as to join him in Haiti!). The writers, directors, and producers are charmed. (Kripke, Edlund, Jim Michaels, etc.) He’s a great guy, with loads of talent. He uses his popularity (which everyone, and particularly Misha, knows is fickle) to do charity work and interact on a personal level with fans. His massive Twitter following is only a reflection of his real-world popularity. All of these things seem celebratory, and not negative.
I’m glad you don’t hate him, just maybe are tired of Castiel.
Thanks for keeping it civil, I’m afraid I have to disagree with your opinions on whether or not twitter trends and polls mean anything, and I have to disagree with your interpretation of Misha’s impact on fans and culture. :/
I hope that no one is trying to argue that the people who love Castiel because of Misha, or visa-versa, are irrelevant, or have no effect on the show, because that would be ridiculous. Because of course they are relevant, and of course they have an effect on the show. They are not some paltry number of obsessed fanatics sitting and clicking in a dark basement: they are a large and lively group of people who interact in the real world and make a real world difference. Hopefully for the better. ๐
Just my thoughts.
[quote]I can’t help but think the writers should have a look at Game Of Thrones – and the fandom should too, at least the ones that thinks the brother’s should be reunited immediately.
It is VERY possible to keep the story moving and entertaining, all the while the characters don’t actually speak with or meet with one another. The boys can be separated, the story can continue both in purgatory and out of it. It isn’t that hard – c’mon SPN writers, don’t get rid of the purgatory plot just because they brother’s aren’t together![/quote]
[quote]I can’t help but think the writers should have a look at Game Of Thrones – and the fandom should too, at least the ones that thinks the brother’s should be reunited immediately.
It is VERY possible to keep the story moving and entertaining, all the while the characters don’t actually speak with or meet with one another. The boys can be separated, the story can continue both in purgatory and out of it. It isn’t that hard – c’mon SPN writers, don’t get rid of the purgatory plot just because they brother’s aren’t together![/quote]
GoT is based on very strong source material. There’s no way to compare these shows. GoT has excellent writers, directors, actors, and a healthy budget to bring it all to life. It’s also a 12 episode/per season fantasy show where SPN is a 22 episode supenatural drama.
GoT has a huge ensemble cast and if you’ve read the books then you know who was important in season1 will not be 2 seasons later. New characters are constantly introduced. and power is always redistributed. SPN is a 2 person lead show like X-Files was.
I’m not sure there is anyway to improve it at this point. It’s a shame the feel of seasons 1-5 could not be maintained after Kripke left. I look forward to Carver speaking at the con. I’m one of ththe people that bailed mid season 7 and is hoping Carver can revitalize show.
I don’t know about all of you but really as long as I get Sam and Dean, together again I’ll be satisfied.
The show definitely doesn’t function well when the boy are split up, hell Sam and Dean don’t function well either. Have we forgotten Free To Be You and Me? When Dean realized that they were stronger together than apart? That they kept each other human?
So yeah, it may be healthy to part ways and grow on their own. But that’s not Supernatural. Nothing about their relationship is normal nor healthy. But being together so long has kept them both alive. And they can both help each other grow, solve their problems, confront their feelings etc. That’s what I want to see. Sam can take care of Dean as much as Dean takes care of Sam. They have each other’s backs, they’re partners.
Sam and Dean have grown a lot since Season 1. I really just want to see Sam and Dean taking care of each other and helping each other move on and grow. You don’t need to split them up for character growth or development.
So, as long as I get Sam and Dean together I really could care less about the rest.
As long as Sam and Dean are the core of the show, I won’t complain either. And I agree on everything else, the boys are that bit crazy, but that’s exactly how I love them.
i’d add that it’d be important if the plot was actually connected to the brothers. I mean, in season 7, they just happened to be there, they fought the fight, but it wasn’t really about them. And I think that’s what made the first 5 season so intense: Sam and Dean were [i]the plot[/i], not just part of it.
Actually, the boys did alright in ‘Free to Be You and Me’, it was after ‘The End’ that Dean saw the need for them to stick together as a team. They function alright as human beings apart from each other, so long as they know the other is safe and happy. One of the dreams the Doujin used against Dean, to keep him under his spell, was seeing Sam happily engaged to Jessica. Dean is bitter than Sam never got the chance to be normal and happy like he wanted. Dean is okay with the idea of him and Sammy having separate lives. But he doesn’t want them to be separated at heart, or for extended periods of time, or any such thing. They are family. They want to be involved and invested in each others lives. They make each other better. But they know they don’t necessarily need to live together twenty-four seven for that to work. Sometimes, they need time apart, to cool down and get some space and perspective. Just like everyone else. I’m glad to see them working together and getting along. It was hard to see them trying to function while Sam was soulless, or captivated by Ruby’s machinations, or crippled by his own psychosis, and while Dean struggled more and more hopelessly to shoulder his immense losses in life. :/ That was hard, and I’m ready (so ready) for that to be over.
No one should shut down your opinion, that is rude. It is something that happens to the people who try to express their affection for Cas and their desire to see him continue on the show, just as It is also something that happens to people that feel the opposite. I kind of think everyone is suffering under a bit of persecution, because (as of yet) there is little moderation and etiquette on the internet for this kind of thing. So let’s all try to be polite, yes?
Sadly hun so many people in this fandom confuse negativity or dislike with ‘wank’ ‘dissing’ or ‘hating’. Not everyone has to like everything about Supernatural, there is going to be some people unhappy or some characters people don’t like, some spoilers people don’t agree with, there is always going to be something! But that’s freedom of opinion. If you can argue with someone fair, politely, no insulting or disrespect than hey bring on negative or differing opinions. That’s what we are here for.
But sadly, like I said above it is very hard to talk to someone, discuss opinions, unpopular or negative ones without someone crying ‘wank and or drama’ starter. All I really wanted to do is talk to fans about the show, whether we agree of not. I don’t see how that constitutes as wank.
The dialogue we got for the trenchcoat scene was what Jensen, Misha, and Singer had rewritten, actually. It was the dialogue they felt they could play, in character.
The show would definitely survive without Cas. But there are many fans who don’t want it to. And many fans who wouldn’t enjoy it enough to watch it anymore (my younger brother being one of them. I tried to get him to watch this season after Cas died, but he refused.) Ratings are definitely important (especially to the survival of a show) they’re just not necessary 100% accurate. ๐
Also I think fans need to consider the production of the show as a factor. Supernatural has a very low budget, so they are in the boundary of the actors, crew, equipment, time, money, props etc. They can only produce what they have the sufficient, time, know how and money for. So that should always be considered when thinking about plots or storylines.
You’re a smart, calm, respectful person.
This fandom needsmore fans like you.
No way, I disagree. You think up something awesome first, then figure out how to make it work. ๐
As a designer, I think it’s good to keep in mind the constraints of the show. It’s also good for the creators to “think outside the box” and come up with the biggest ideas possible, to then trim them down to fit the constraints. Both things are good, both are necessary. ๐
It would have been interesting if Sam had been sucked in with them! We could have the adventures of Team Free Will in Purgatory! That actually sounds fantastic (and it guarantees some cool Purgatory time). I’d love to see how that would have turned out. ๐
It’s not just fan delusion that puts Castiel with the brothers on a semi-permanent basis. There is actually canonical precedence for that interpretation, including Dean making Cas his own fake FBI badge. That shows a great deal of forethought, and indicates that Cas has a place with them in the future. Also, Cas’ story revolves a lot around the Winchesters, as they are now his only real family, the only ones who will have him. He was prepared to become mortal for them. Since the writers and cast are the ones calling him another brother, it’s obviously not just a fan interpretation. Thank you.
For once I’d like Dean to be front and center in the season mytharc, and for him to actually get to keep it to himself without it being regifted to Sam, and for Sam to revolve around Dean for a change. Not interested in just the boys (yawn): more Cas please.
completely agree with you there.
[quote]No chatter on that, but that’s a great question. Will try to bring it up at Comic-Con.[/quote]
Thanks Alice. Kripke was a rock fan and the music set the tone for the series. Gamble & Singer obviously don’t have an appreciation for rock. The couple episodes I saw of US Being Human had emo music so I fear Caever will not fight for the music either. Yes ee know music rights are expensive but so is everything about making a TV show. When something is so important to the identity of a show budget cuts should be made elsewhere.
Unfortunately, my understanding is the classic rock became too expensive to license. It is one reason that Netflix does not have the soundtrack that is on the DVD’s and in the original episodes. They didn’t license it for that type of distribution at the time and they don’t have the money to do so now.
I do hope they can get the money to get some of that rock music back.
[quote]Unfortunately, my understanding is the classic rock became too expensive to license. It is one reason that Netflix does not have the soundtrack that is on the DVD’s and in the original episodes. They didn’t license it for that type of distribution at the time and they don’t have the money to do so now.
I do hope they can get the money to get some of that rock music back.[/quote]
Only season 1 is missing the original music on Netflix. It’s expensive but it’s also a priority. Not only is music MIA but when they do use it is in an inappropriate way. And the background music often doesn’t match the tone of the scenes or the volume of it is too loud. It’s background music for a reason and it’s supposed to be subtle. Being careful with the music should not be a great expense.
For Season 8 to be interesting to me, I need for the show to give the focus back to the brothers and their story. I stop caring as a viewer when the leads of the show are acting as wallpaper for secondary characters. The finale right from the start of the recap was about Bobby, Kevin, and Cas. Sam and Dean had no role in their own finale for the first time in the history of the show. That’s why it failed for me.
The show needs to give initiative back to Sam and Dean in order for the show to capture the success of earlier seasons again. Initiative back in the whole season arc, not just a couple of episodes. So, hearing S8 is all about Kevin isn’t inspiring much confidence.
Looking forward to Season 8. With the spoilers or without them. Just want to see the adventure of Sam and Dean continue and will have to have faith in the writers, actors,producers,crew to give us a good show.
One more question. Will you be upgrading commion so we can sign in with email or Twitte.? I think it’s called disqus. It’s kinda challenging to post from a mobile device with the added captcha step
Whew! What a roller coaster of a read!! In the words of MY favourite angel “Can’t we all just get along?” ๐
All I want, really, for season 8, is: Sam and Dean EMOTIONALLY together. Whether physically or apart doesn’t matter. I wish for that to be shown in the writing.
They DO NOT have to be in a vacuum or joined at the hip.
I wish for them to have friends they can depend on. Wonderful characters have been needlessly killed off in the past 4 seasons. Bring some back or create others. Don’t leave the boys with ONLY each other for support!
Having Cas as a friend doesn’t mean Dean doesn’t need or love his brother.
Don’t let cosmic superbeings keep pushing the boys around on a chess board and let them have more control over what happens with them.
For goodness sakes let them have some female friends like Lisa, Sarah, Ellen, Jo, Maddie (without the wolf part), Jamie or Jody. These guys are red-blooded he-men and need the ladies from time to time. They don’t need them in the back of the Impala,(well, not every time! ๐ ) but refer to them from time to time, like real people do with friends.
I love this show from the pilot to the finale of 7 and nothing is going to stop me from watching until the very end, whether I agree with the writing or anything else I will never threaten to stop watching. If Sam and Dean are together EMOTIONALLY I am with them and the creators no matter what.
I consider myself lucky and fortunate that the 2 Js have so much chemistry together and landed those great roles. God bless ’em and those (Eric?) who picked them! ๐ ๐
I’ll agree that it could have been better written, although I don’t think it was as out of character as people seem to believe. Dean exists as a character outside of Jensen (which is part of why fans feel invested in him, and why they feel they have a right to contribute): he is also a product of the writing team, for better or worse. That’s just the way of television. I trust Jensen’s judgement a lot, but he’s as surprised as anyone by Dean’s actions sometimes. Like, he told audiences his initial reaction to Dean leaving Castiel in the hospital was much like ours (he was speaking to someone mildly upset that it happened that way, so empathizing with us) and that he only came to understand it in retrospect as the safer option, as they filmed the subsequent episodes. In any case, now that it is canonical that Dean not only took the trenchcoat, but carried it with him, to return it to Cas, because ‘a part of him always believed he’d come back’ — Jensen will actively have to justify that in character. Because it happened, it is now [i]in character[/i] for Dean to do that. But it’s not just Castiel he does this sort of thing for. He carries momentos with him as a matter of course (like his dad’s leather jacket, Bobby’s flask, the amulet, etc). It’s not that far out, as far as the concept goes. It all comes back to slightly clumsy execution, I guess. ๐ We can disagree, though.
Edited by Alice – P and Someone Else are the same person, I can prove via the IP address. This is classic troll behavior. The first comment has been unpublished, this one is being edited.
I believe it carries a pungent manly musk, myself. Often used by wild animals to attract mates or show dominance.
lol ๐ Good post.
Edited by Alice – Removing quote since the post was unpublished.
I find Sam incredibly boring myself. That’s why I’m so happy Cas will be in season 8.
Clare this is one place that allows for civil discussion. By responding to trolls you are encouraging them to come here. Please don’t do that. Just report them.
I never implied that he’d be ‘bonking’ the brothers in hotels. I don’t know where you’re getting that from. I personally don’t believe the show would be courageous enough to feature a gay couple, especially if one or more of it’s members were main characters. I just don’t know that they’d be willing to risk the backlash. (Which is a bit disappointing, since they have such a strong fan base in the LGBT community, myself included.) So I personally don’t expect that to ever happen.
Cas does not live and breath for the brothers, but they play a huge part in his character motivation and development. They have since the day he turned his back on Heaven. But yes, he is his own person. I am interested to see how they develop his story, and whether or not they continue to intertwine it with the brothers’. ๐
So, the way I see it, these spoilers have drawn uncomfortable lines betweeen the fandoms. Some are upset that the brothers will be reunited quickly. Some are relieved but are equally upset that the angel mythology will be returning. I just wish people would understand that, despite the nature of the show, the writers are human. There is no possible way to please everyone. There will always be a storyline that’ll upset some but please others. Can’t we just accept it as it is; be grateful for what satisfies us, and be happy for the others when they get what they want. *sigh*
Anyways, in regards to the spoilers themselves, I can’t say I’m overly pleased that the brothers will be reunited almost immediately (I’m guessing), but the rest sounds really promising. And count me in as one of those who think that Dean should save Dean. His morale really needs that.
I’m hoping to see Sam, Dean, Castiel and Bobby solving things. Four main characters for me. ๐
And it’s not nice to say rude things about characters you don’t like. How would you feel if i’d say I want your fave character to die?
I hope they include it on the dvd. I was also disappointed with a lot of the editing this season, like when Cas’ death felt rushed, or when they took out the line “Part of me always believed you would come back” [b]after[/b] the had used it in the previews! It was a little disappointing, so I know how you feel. But I don’t think Castiel’s scenes at all weakened the finale. I think your view of it as the “worst finale” is definitely subjective, and not supported by IMDb which (as of 8:47pm today) lists it as rated equally with the season 1 finale, and only one or a couple points behind the others. Supernatural does finales pretty well, as far as I’m concerned. I guess different strokes for different folks, and all. ๐
[quote]I hope they include it on the dvd.[/quote]
Me too.
It’s not polite to assume anything about anyone.
I also don’t think it’s polite to denigrate someone’s interpretation of an on-screen relationship. I am one of those people, who see the chemistry between Dean and Castiel as something more than platonic, mostly because it closely mirrors my own journey of self-discovery during these past two years of my life. But I am aware of the fact that my interpretation is not everyone’s, and I accept that there will always be people who disagree with me in that. But simply because I see Dean and Castiel interacting in a romantic (or at least [i]charged[/i]) manner, doesn’t mean my opinions on their characters are any less valid or valuable. Accusing someone of pairing them romantically isn’t an insult, because pairing them romantically is not bad. Just subjective.
I really hope that รขโฌลa number of timesรขโฌย means รขโฌลa lot of timesรขโฌย. Iรขโฌโขd love it if Misha was a series regular again. Castiel is my favourite character. Iรขโฌโขm also a big fan of Crowley and hope to see a lot of him too. Huzzah for Angels and Demons! ๐
Agreed. ๐ I’m actually rather happy about the theme (though less excited about the possibility that the end goal would be locking the demons and angels up, because that’s just not right :P)
I guess not seeing Purgatory won’t be so bad, because I certainly looooove the angels, especially Castiel (my favorite as well), and yes Crowley is magnificent too. Really looking forward to seeing a lot more of them both.
I know it’s not ‘canon’, that it probably never will be. And it is also not why I personally want to see Dean and Castiel together on screen (it contributes to my enjoyment but doesn’t motivate it and is not constrained to it). I find the [i]friendship[/i] between Dean and Cas the most compelling relationship on the screen. BUT, the subjective relationship that I see between them does not invalidate any logical arguments I make toward Supernatural’s development as a series. Just like someone’s subjective view of them as less than friends would not invalidate any logical arguments they made toward Supernatural’s development. We, as fans, shouldn’t imply that it does. If I actually supported wincest, I’d be making the same argument. My opinions are valid, and formed from watching the series. Just because I think two men from the series make more logical sense as a couple than as enemies or simple comrades, doesn’t mean my logic or perspective is flawed. We all need to remember that. ๐
It is annoying, and as I said above, people shouldn’t just assume. It is a poor argument. Yes, you are right about that.
But the reason a lot of people take offense, is because it implies that simply wanting a romantic relationship between one’s two favorite male characters somehow invalidates whatever logic one might have used to promote it. :/ That’s all I meant.
Again, I disagree. I think the motivations were the same, to keep the objects close to him that reminded him of the people he loved. It was certainly the same as Dean keeping Bobby’s flask. Bobby didn’t give him that, but he kept it, to remember Bobby by. Dean didn’t [i]know[/i] Cas would be back, but he [i]believed[/i] it. That’s a huge difference. Either way, Dean keeps things that the people he loves once owned. He kept the coat. (And he kept it [i]with him[/i]. Not just stored in the Impala, not left at Bobby’s house, or at Rufus’ cabin. With him, in every car.) And now that is canon fact. ๐
I remember when people started airing shows on the History Chanel, talking about how Da Vinci was gay, and how no one in my circle of acquaintance believed it at first. They scoffed, and rejected the theory. The more open historians were about their findings in Da Vinci’s records, etc, the more widely held the belief has become that he was gay. But it took awhile for popular culture to accept that. Because unfortunately, our culture is still highly resistant to having gay heros, icons, or leading men. I mean, it still makes headline news any time a popular actor comes out. It would be a hugely controversial issue if Supernatural were to make either brother openly involved in a romantic relationship outside of the normal, serially-monogamous, heterosexual ones. It’s something that will change over the next 10 – 20 years, but I don’t think Supernatural is willing to risk estranging any of its fan base. ๐
I mean, that’s just my opinion, though. They could prove me wrong.
I agree with you that the representation of LGBT characters is really lacking on network TV. I also understand your wish to see it represented on Supernatural. However, Dean has been portrayed since season one as being heterosexual. The only romantic attachments he has formed in canon were with women. During his live life to the fullest period in the year before Hell, we saw him with female twins (completely not a serially-monogamous relationship) and pursuing women. Yes, men can be closeted and use beards, but Dean has been shown to be invested in women both casually and on a deep emotional level.
For me the other issue with a Castiel relationship of any sort is the lack of resolution as to Jimmy’s state. Many fans assume Jimmy is truly dead and the form Castiel inhabits is just a shell, but that has never been confirmed. Until it is dealt with the same consent issues that were solved by having Ruby inhabit a dead body are there for Castiel.
Although I don’t really believe it, I could actually argue that Sam would be more likely than Dean to be gay, simply because Sam has not, in general, been shown as being as overtly sexual as Dean is. Sam has had female lovers, but he has had fewer on screen and has not talked about off screen encounters the way Dean has. Sam could be molded into a bi-sexual or closeted man, but he hasn’t had that kind of chemistry with a man and I don’t see any point in changing the portrayed sexuality of Sam.
Perhaps Charlie could come back accompanied by a girlfriend. Or Kevin Tran could be gay, we know nothing about his sexuality.
I personally disagree with your argument on a few counts.
1) Just because someone sleeps with a lot of women and enjoys it, does not discount that they might also sleep with men and enjoy it. Some studies have concluded that bisexuals may actually have a higher over-all sex drive than people who identify as heterosexual or homosexual, exclusively. (Article by Richard A. Lippa, “The relation between sex drive and sexual attraction to men and women: a cross-national study of heterosexual, bisexual, and homosexual men and women”) In men, he even describes how bisexual men tend to prefer one gender over the other, even though they still may display interest both ways. Kinda cool reading.
People need to accept that there are more choices around than ‘straight’ and ‘gay’. ๐
2) Just because someone does not sleep around, it does not indicate their sexual preferences. Celibacy is a choice, not a sexual orientation. ๐
3) We didn’t actually see Dean having sex with twin girls. We saw him having sex with one girl, and he later said there were twins. That situation is up to interpretation. ๐ I wouldn’t mind if he did, that really wouldn’t change my stance. Just pointing that out.
4) Sexual escapades and romance are different. They inform each other a lot, but aren’t necessarily dependent on each other. Like, a person can have romantic but platonic friendships. And how many people have complained that their sexual partner has no sense of romance? ๐
On a different note, I’d love to have Charlie back. With girlfriend would be fine. Her appearance and portrayal on Supernatural was one of the highlights of the season, for me. But, sadly, she’s not a main character, so my original woe still stands.
Thank you guys for taking the time to politely discuss this with me. ๐
Same. ๐
WHEW! Seriously! I am now officially exhausted! Some of you have energy that I’m extremely envious of!
With that said, I am so excited for S8!!
I love EVERYTHING about this show! Like so many of you, I found it a few years ago and have been hooked ever since. It truly makes me happy! That is when I’m not crying or freaking out. ๐ But the general feeling is one of happiness. It’s not perfect all of the time but it is close enough for me. I mean really, how can something be expected to be perfect ALL of the time? And how on earth can the writers and producers possibly make ALL of us happy ALL of the time. That is simply just an impossibility.
I can totally relate to the love and the passion that this show inspires, but when it gets to a point that a person is really [u][i]ANGRY[/i][/u] about the [u][i]POSSIBLE[/i][/u] direction that a [i][u]TV [/u] [/i] show is taking, then maybe that is the time to step back, relax and take a deep breath. Use that time to remember why you fell in love with the show to start with. If you hurry, you can be back by October ๐
We are all here because of our love for this show. It is something that we share and all have in common. That is something to celebrate, not berate each other over when we see things differently. Diversity is a great thing! And if the show doesn’t make you happy anymore, then maybe it’s time to step away. Life is far to full of REAL problems to waste any precious time on something that makes you so unhappy.
As for me, October cannot come soon enough! I can’t wait to lose myself in all of the awesomeness that is [i]Supernatural[/i]! Bring it on!!
a) I’m not suggesting they do, haha, because I certainly don’t anticipate it.
b) That doesn’t mean the opportunity doesn’t [i]justifiably[/i] exist. There have been some wonderful metas written about how Dean could be construed as bisexual (or even just rating somewhere on the Kinsey scale, if you prefer to avoid the labels, like I do) from [i]canon[/i] sources, examples, and interviews. They are actually really interesting, and some of them are featured on the Supernatural Wiki:
[url]http://chasingtides.livejournal.com/308708.html[/url]
[url]http://waterofthemoon.livejournal.com/430230.html[/url]
They’re not definitive, and of course nothing is canon until it is written, acted, filmed, and on the screen for all to see. But it might help illustrate how it’s not necessarily out of the range of possibility for Dean, in particular. ๐
But I don’t want them to bow to fan pressures and insert a romance that would be out of character or grating.
I want them to write the best story they can. If that eventually somehow includes Dean or Castiel or Sam in a romantic relationship with someone of the same physical gender, then I’ll be thrilled. But I don’t anticipate it.
(You never do know though. House and Wilson rode off into the sunset, against all odds. Lol. That was a surprise!)
๐
I had been looking forward to the dramatic tension of “Will Dean escape Purgatory? Will the brothers be united again?”. That actually seemed fresh. But, good drama tossed away because Sam/Dean have to be joined at the hip. RS even says it’s because of fans?! Yeesh.
Also, I was hoping S8 could start out very different, to help me get rid of the memory of S7. But nope, brothers together in the car, hunting monsters again, with no break.
Really? Did you really have doubts that Dean would escape Purgatory? Did you really doubt that the brothers would be reunited?
‘How’ Dean escapes from Purgatory and ‘how soon’ the brothers would be reunited continue to be the questions to be answered. Based on the spoilers, we don’t have an answer to either of those questions. We’ll see them together apparently in Ep 801 but we don’t know how much time has passed or what will be happening.
You may get your wish and it will be very different than S7.
As Melanie said, there was no doubt Dean would escape and reunite with hiw brother.
But I’d like to point out that Purgatory was never going to be themain location where S8 would take place, for the simple reason that I doubt CW or the show can spend all that money on the FX and CGI that would be needed for that.
We’ll get flashbacks, as they did with Hell (that I found they managed very well), because that’s what they can afford. SPN is not GoT, is not a superproduction. But there’s no reason to get mad at the showrunners for not having more money.
Yes, because dark forests are super expensive.
[quote]As Melanie said, there was no doubt Dean would escape and reunite with hiw brother.
But I’d like to point out that Purgatory was never going to be themain location where S8 would take place, for the simple reason that I doubt CW or the show can spend all that money on the FX and CGI that would be needed for that.
[/quote]
I didn’t expect Purgatory to take up much time during S8. Just a few episodes. Also, I think that parts of Purgatory would look just like Earth. After all, we already saw Heaven, Hell, & the insides of Sam & Bobby’s heads. DSOTM & TMWWBK were good episodes. Is that too much to ask? “Too expensive” is a lame argument.
What’s killing me is picturing “Lazurus Rising” told in flashback. I can’t trust Supernatural to not be Superlame anymore, now can I? I don’t think Superlame is trying to hit it out of the park anymore. It sounds like they’re just fan servicing various core fans.
For instance, I hear a part of S8 is the mystery of how Dean got out of Purgatory. Sound comparable to “Lazurus Rising”?? Jesus, please don’t ruin my memory of that episode.
But “Lazurus Rising” worked because there was immediate danger as well as mystery. What did this scary bad thing want with Dean?? Were the brothers now in even worse trouble?
Where’s the immediate danger in a flashback? Also, “Lazurus Rising” is stronger since it’s just one episode, & I didn’t have to wait for a lot of episodes to see who pulled Dean out. I wasn’t watching SPN when I saw “Lazurus Rising”. So I wouldn’t have watched other epis to find that mystery.
Oh, also, I would love it if one of the Words of God had something to do with resurrecting Angels. I think it would be great to see Gabriel and Balthazar again.
Ooooh. I like that idea. I’m forever wishing for Gabriel’s return.
Oh don’t even… I can’t even hope, it hurts too much. ;__;
…But I want that so bad.
I still disagree about the writing and character portrayal, but that’s absolutely fine. It’s kind of irrelevant, anyway, isn’t it? ๐ I’m still happy with a continuing, developing friendship and familial bond between Dean and Castiel, Sam and Castiel, and Sam and Dean. That’s perfectly fine, and really all I could ever expect from the show.
Charlie should come back. Absolutely. So much love for Charlie.
I still think it was not out of character for Dean, because, as I said, he exists beyond Jensen. The[b] writing team[/b] edited and approved the script. Jensen acted it (he has had to push through scenes he didn’t like before, because of the way they were written). The director shot and edited the scene. It’s now in-character for Dean to do that, canonically. I personally think it was not handled as well as it could have been, just like Dean and Sam walking away from each other for a while over Amy was not handled well. I hated that. I thought everything about that episode was out of character, but it has to be justified, in-universe, or I can’t invest in the show. Turns out, there are a million ways to justify the brothers’ reactions about Amy, without sacrificing any character integrity. It’s all up to interpretation. Another example: I didn’t like how Dean left Cas in the asylum, but I have to justify it to his character, just like Jensen had to play it, then retroactively understand. The actors know their characters in a very special way, that none of us can equal, which is why they’re able to make independent acting choices and sometimes even alter dialogue to fit character. But ultimately, a fictional character on a television show is a group project. They are always a kind of Frankenstein. Collaborative artistic efforts run a great risk that way. Dean, on paper, is a fantastic character, one that caught Jensen’s attention straight away. But imagine if they had hired a bad actor instead of Jensen! The interpretation of the elder Winchester brother would be so different! That’s part of why casting directors deserve respect when they get it as right as they did on Supernatural. ๐
I love Jensen’s acting, too. I think he could easily earn an Oscar, on a film. He deserves a lot more recognition than he receives. And, since he’s the one who picked up the trenchcoat out of the lake, it makes sensen he’d have to deal with it later, lol. ๐ I love this show, man. I love this show.
[quote]
The network never budges though because they know if they turn the tables to a whole other direction, that will destroy a show. Cult following, or the core following? which one is more important to the SPN show?[/quote]
I have to chuckle at the distinction between the “cult” and “core” following of Supernatural. I’m pretty sure the two are one in the same. ๐
[quote]
(2) Why are people assuming you won’t see Dean in Purgatory? It seems like his story will be told in flashbacks. It’s not like it will be ignored completely. You’ll get your Purgatory story, but in FBs. What’s the problem w/that?
[/quote]
Because there’s intensity & immediacy in not knowing when/how Dean gets out. It’s edge of the seat stuff, because Dean never fought a monster IN Purgatory. Not like all & every kind of monster Dean ganked on Earth. In fact, monsters have been downright anti-climatic during S6/S7, except the alphas.
In a flashback, you already know Dean got out, don’t you? You already know it’ll be wrapped up by the end of the episode. There might some mysterious detail, but not horror show visceral. S1 made me jump. The danger felt real. S2-S5 had moments like that. I haven’t felt the brothers were really in danger since end of S5.
Well, given that Dean’s a lead on the show, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that he was getting out of Purgatory. Just like we all knew he wouldn’t stay in Hell.
Also, I think it’s important to keep in mind with all of these spoilers that we might just be being trolled by the cast and crew. I’m thinking of the lengths that Jim Beaver and Mark Sheppard went to in order to keep their appearances a surprise. Obviously, an entire seasonal story arc is a bit different, but Mark’s return was pretty pivotal, and that was really kept under wraps. I’m not saying that Singer is straight-up lying through his teeth, but I’d believe him being somewhat misleading if the writers really do have something up their sleeve, particularly in regards to Purgatory or a particular character (Cass? Crowley?)
As for the angels/demons heaven/hell return, I’m actually glad. The hell mythos was introduced very early on, so it’s presence should still jive with those that loved s1-s3 and want to keep that feeling. However, for logic and continuities sake, it’d be foolish to completely drop the existence of angels and heaven (and, as we saw in s7, it’s not like dropping it was beneficial anyway). Keeping the angels also allows a logical way to keep Cass, appeasing those who love him and at least making him more tolerable for those who do not.
The Kevin thing could be hit or miss at this point. If nothing else, I think it will give the boys a specific goal, something they’ve lacked since season 5. Yes, season 6 was inadvertently “stop Crowley and Cass,” but we (and the boys) didn’t know that, so it didn’t drive the show. Season 7 did have “stop the Leviathans,” but they were such covert operators that stopping them lacked any sense of urgency. Crowley has had a few seasons to build himself up as a legitimate and cunning opponent. Even if we don’t know his reasons from the get-go, I think having him as the antagonist will create the level of suspense s7 lacked.
I’m curious to see what is said at Comic-con. Although, as I mentioned above, I don’t trust any of them, haha.
I wish they hadn’t decided to scrap purgatory. I was hoping I would get a chance to see Cas more often this season, now I’m not so sure I will. I hope I do, I really love him. Last season was rough without him for so long. It’s cool that there will be demons again, though. I hope Crowley pops up again. I really like Mark Sheppard, too.
Just a note to counter all the negative views on sam not saving Dean.
I don’t believe that Sam will be twiddling his thumbs while Dean gets his feature heroics on escaping purgatory. Remember the Levis are still going strong top side and Sam is going to have a lot of sh*t on his plate topside. While Dean & Cas are trying to survive and escape purgatory.
So I think each brother can have a rich and expressive tale to share once they are reunited.
I think Dean deserves his moment of heroism though. It’s about time.
I’d like to know how Dean is going to get out of purgatory by himself. Eve couldn’t. Doesn’t make any sense unless it’s a misleading statement.
How can their relationship possibly unfold anymore than it has? In season 1 and 2 when they were new, it was interesting. But if I wanted to see them fight about the same things over and over, I would watch S1 and S2. And interacting with a one episode character for a little bit does not create character development.
People can be family and have a relationship without being next to each other all the time. I have a sister (3 actually but one I am super close to). I went to college for four years, so I only saw her on holidays/summer. Amazingly enough, I made friends and was still able to love my sister just as much as I did before I left. And I had new things to talk about. Had I never went, there would be nothing new for us to have dialogues about and we would probably have resented each other.
Sam and Dean needs to have a chance to do this. To learn new things and go on an albeit short adventure. What could two grown men who have been together nearly 24-7 for years have to say/learn about each other that is new? Let them go on separate vacations! At least then Sam and Dean can talk about their trips to Jamaica and the Grand Canyon with each other.
Love is right. You’re describing a normal familial relationship. There is nothing normal about Sam and Dean’s lives. They’re not going on vacations or spending the holidays in exotic locations. They don’t have normal 9-to-5 jobs. They don’t have normal love relationships.
Most people who watch Supernatural realize that we’ll be seeing the brothers together in basically every episode. That’s the entire premise of the show. That cannot, and should not, change. And like ME said below, while that might be unhealthy in “real” life, it’s fine to me in “reel” life.
And he killed Azazel. And he got through to John so John could hold Azazel at bay when Sam couldn’t. And he killed Eve. . And he rescued Sam’s soul by dying. And he got Death’s ring all by himself. Dean has always been a big old hero. It’s one of the things I love about him.
It’s not so much about Purgatory even. I thought that Sam-alone vs Crowley was a fight I wanted to watch. So many monsters are more scarier when the brothers aren’t together.
Sam+Dean against monster = I’ve seen it a hundred times.
Sam alone against a monster for entire epi = never seen.
Dean alone fighting for his life with no hope his brother could help = never seen.
I wanted something new. Why do the brothers have to always fight together almost EVERY episode?? Why does it hurt the “brotherly bond” to see a brother alone fighting without the other, or soul searching, for more than 2 episodes?? SPN endured the complaints about Castiel. Couldn’t they have endured the complaints about the brothers together for a few episodes? Seems chicken to me.
this! completely agree with you
Oh man, I keep saying I’m done with spoilers, but I keep getting sucked back in! I hate spoilers – they get us all worked up and many times the actual show is nothing like the spoiler had us worked up about!!
First I’d like to say to the “romance” idea….burn baby burn! There is no need for a reoccuring romance in this show.
The show is about the two Winchester Brothers….Sam & Dean…..PERIOD!! Other characters come and go, but it’s about the brothers and the brothers need to be together or trying to get back together! Sam should play a big part in rescuing Dean, he just should – Dean would be doing that for Sam or die trying. They can be apart at times, but not for very long – we’ve all seen no good comes when they are apart for very long. Both ends should always be working back to the middle….they are stronger together.
We want the brothers, together, hunting things and saving people!! Their bond, their power is stronger together!
It’s a shame to think that fanfiction writers are doing a better job with storylines that the PAID writers!! I know I’ve mentioned this fanfic before and many of you have read it and agreed……but Darkest before Dawn is so well thought out and every twist and turn makes perfect sense and presents such a fantastic storyline – granted, fanfic would most of the time be hard to portray on TV, but at least there is some thought and real meat to a story like this and not just sloppy writing and easy-way-out with “some time has passed” and flashbacks. (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8137704/1/Darkest_Before_Dawn)
I love this show and I love Sam & Dean and I’ll be with them until the very end (which I hope is many years from now), but I surely hope Jeremy Carver is worthy of the faith we are putting in him!! Please don’t let us down JC!! Don’t let Sam & Dean down – heck, don’t let Jensen and Jared down – they deserve great story lines. Their talent is awesome, their characters are awesome – let them shine with some awesome writing and some awesome story opportunities……for the brothers! Not for Cas, not for some romance side story, not for separate story lines
This fan is truly hoping for a great season 8……..but I’m scared already.
I’d rather not read fanfics when everything is about biggy bro Dean holding poor Sammy’s hand. Please keep fanfiction out of the show. especially something like this.
DEAN SHOULD NOT be reduced to play the endless caretaker role. I don’t want this for Dean, because I think he’s an individual who’s allowed to think for himself, to have his own wishes that have nothing to do with Sam. And that’s what I want for the show. To have the brothers separated for a while. Because endless Dean and Sam on the road killing things is boring mindless and repetitive television. As season 7 has shown.
You and I are watching completely different shows. In season one Dean working with Sam allowed Dean to grow enough to stand up to John and decide how he wanted the hunt for the YED to go. Sam was grieving for Jess, but Dean wasn’t holding his hand over it. Yes, he encouraged Sam to date, but that isn’t hand holding
In season 2 Dean was so overcome by the guilt of John’s death and John’s warning that Sam spent the first half of the season trying to support Dean. When Sam tried to express his grief over John, Dean cut him off and told him it was too late. Sam never went to Dean for comfort again. When Sam found out about John’s order, he tried to find answers for himself, to the anger of Dean and fans alike. Sam did ask Dean to fulfill John’s orders if Sam went darkside, but he spent time trying to figure out his own destiny. The only time “Sam” totally fell apart and leaned on Dean was when he was possessed by Meg and she was faking his amnesia and neediness. In Heart Sam took the responsibility for killing Madison. Dean didn’t hold Sam’s hand in the next episode Hollywood Babylon. He took part in the movie crew and had a fling with the actress. He didn’t even act as if the fact that 2 women that Sam had had feelings for had died in California warranted getting Sam out. Being APART from Sam caused Dean to make his deal and he actually made it clear that he did it because of John’s instructions to take care of Sam at all cost, not because Sam needed taking care of.
Season three Dean completely dismissed Sam’s feelings by admitting he was selfish and tough toenails for Sam. Sam spent most of the season looking for a way to save Dean from the Deal, while trying to give Dean his desires for his last year. Dean wanted to do twins, Sam waited outside and looked for a way out of the deal. Dean wanted to see Lisa, they went to see Lisa. Dean wanted to do Christmas even though it was killing Sam, they did Christmas. Dean was living the consequences of saving Sam, but he wasn’t holding Sam’s hand.
In season four Sam and Dean were emotionally apart and Dean was understandably too traumatized to hold Sam’s hand. Dean was drinking heavily. In fact the Sam’s worst move was to keep Dean from holding his hand by turning to Ruby to make himself strong. Repeatedly calling Sam a monster and finally disowning him was not holding Sam’s hand. Perhaps you wanted Dean to kill Sam or to simply walk away from him when he found out about the demon blood drinking. But what he did was lock Sam in the panic room and leave him alone to gut out detoxing.
Dean was furious and untrusting of Sam during season five. He didn’t forgive Sam until PONR and was completely uninterested in the fact that Lucifer wanted Sam to be his vessel, other than to tell Sam that Sam was so weak that he knew Sam would agree. Again, no hand holding. I suppose you can say that allowing Sam to kill Brady was hand holding, although personally I didn’t see it that way. Sam refused to try and take over from Lucifer unless Dean agreed. Dean did and Sam jumped. Not hand holding but letting go, IMHO. I will grant you that showing up so Sam didn’t die alone could be called hand holding, but again, it would have been OOC for him to do otherwise. And Sam would have done the same if the situations were reversed. Since both Bobby and Castiel showed up at Stull Cemetery and they have purposes other than holding Sam’s hand, Dean’s actions could be for other reasons including wanting to see his brother FOR HIMSELF before he lost Sam forever.
In season six Sam was soulless for half the season and needed absolutely NO hand holding. In fact Dean had spent an entire year with no Sam in sight, so no hand holding there either. Yes, Dean rescued Sam’s soul and tried to keep the wall from falling, but Sam didn’t want that and this was a very unique situation. Perhaps you want Dean to not care if Sam lived or died, but it would have been OOC for him to not care. Sam hunted along with Dean and Dean didn’t shelter Sam from any dangers during that time. Sam embraced the memories of Hell to save Dean, even if the only thing he could do was hold Dean’s hand.
During season seven Dean made the “first stone” speech and then it all was dropped until episode 17. Dean was overwhelmed with depression and was incapable of being supportive of Sam.
I have heard the accusations that Dean has never had a story outside of Sam. I see it differently. Season one Dean’s story was about coming out of John’s shadow and learning to rely on his own judgment, not only what John decreed. Season two Dean’s journey was about feeling that he should be dead and coming to terms with the unbearable burden that John had placed on him. Season three was about Dean’s trying to live his last year out and eventually deciding that he DID deserve to live. Season four was about Dean dealing with his guilt about torturing, and the burdens the angels were putting on him. Season five was about fighting destiny and forgiving Sam. Season six was in part about Dean trying to balance his desire for a domestic life and his identity as a hunter. Season seven was highly focused on Dean’s depression.
Was Sam part of these stories? Of course he was. Both brothers are interwoven and each affects the other. Certainly part of Dean’s distress did have to do with his relationship with Sam, especially when they were estranged. IMHO Dean’s biggest growth when it came to independence, learning to trust his own judgment and learning that he is important and valuable happened during seasons 1-3 when he was close to Sam. Much of this growth was a result of the fact that Sam was there to help Dean make these realizations. As far back as season one, Sam told Dean that he was angry that Dean didn’t think for himself, but took John’s judgment over his own. Sam told Dean that he wanted him to live in season three, validating Dean’s worth and leading to Dean’s final realization that he wanted to live.
Sam has supported Dean in the past and Dean has not supported Sam at times. I don’t see things as being quite as unbalanced as you do.
And just to avoid problems this is all JUST MY OWN OPINION.
Ridiculously, awesome post, Percy!!!
I couldn’t agree more w/you. You see the same stories for Dean that I have seen (and enjoyed). Great post!
I loved this post. I hadn’t really thought about it in this way. Very interesting.
[quote]It’s a shame to think that fanfiction writers are doing a better job with storylines that the PAID writers!! I know I’ve mentioned this fanfic before and many of you have read it and agreed……but Darkest before Dawn is so well thought out and every twist and turn makes perfect sense and presents such a fantastic storyline – granted, fanfic would most of the time be hard to portray on TV, but at least there is some thought and real meat to a story like this and not just sloppy writing and easy-way-out with “some time has passed” and flashbacks. [/quote] While I think that I have already commended this fanfiction, I must admit, I find the รขโฌหfanfiction writers are doing a better job with storylines than the paid writersรขโฌโข comment to be hugely disrespectful to the writers of SPN. If a viewer doesnรขโฌโขt like an episode is that now automatically the writers fault? Would viewer expectations and preconceptions about the episode and the characters not also factor when forming an opinion of the episode? I thought [i]Ulysses[/i] was the biggest crock of shit Iรขโฌโขve ever read in my life. Is it James Joyceรขโฌโขs fault that I think that?
Fanfiction is fanfiction for a reason. It usually focuses on one particular character, often at the expense of others. Add to that, fanfiction writers have unlimited scope and time to tell their story. They can set it anywhere and do anything because they donรขโฌโขt have the constraints of sets and finance etc to worry about. Writers on the show cannot afford to write solely for a particular type of fan, they need to try and cater for all the fans.
This story, as good as it is, would be completely unworkable on screen and would only serve to alienate and anger a huge number of fans. The reasons? (story spoilers) [hide]Not only does almost every human character who has died on the show make an appearance but Castiel is barely mentioned in it, Dean gets to walk around for a bit and Sam is drained of blood. Thatรขโฌโขs not proactive, badass Winchesters. Itรขโฌโขs actually the Alpha Vamp who comes up with the plan and makes it work, not Sam. Sam just sits there, and by the end of the story, lies there. How on earth would that make a good episode? How would it work in an overall season? What would happen to the remaining Leviathans, and Crowley and Kevin etc while the Winchesters are pulling everyone they know out of Purgatory? Are the Winchesters going to go against the รขโฌหhunting thingsรขโฌโข part of their mantra and just focus on bringing people back to life for season 8? [/hide] No disrespect to Marianna Morgan, who I think is a damn fine writer, but this story, and most fanfiction stories out there, would be nigh on impossible to translate to screen.
And Victoria, do you not think it might be a good idea to wait until youรขโฌโขve actually seen what the writers give us in season 8 before you decide to pass it off as รขโฌหsloppyรขโฌโข and ‘easy way out’?
Cas wasn’t apart of their lives at the beginning but things change. My step sister wasn’t a part of my life since the beginning. It was just me and my brother. But because she came into my life later that means she isn’t as important? no. And obviously Dean thinks that Cas should be there permanently with them. He made him a fake ID card. If he wasn’t going to hunt with them he wouldn’t need it. Anyways the point is that in the beginning it was Sam and Dean. But things change people grow and add new people to their lives.
Geez…..I thought this was an open forum and we could share our thoughts, it seems other have……guess I was wrong.
You won’t be bothered by me again.
You did share your thoughts, Victoria, as did I and everone else on here therefore it [i]is[/i] an open forum. However, getting posters who disagree with you is [i]also[/i] part and parcel of participating in an open forum.
Well congratulations to all those who campaigned for the brothers to never be separated, now we’ve lost the chance for some real character development for both the boys. Why on earth they need to be consistently joined at the hip I don’t know but playing out the purgatory storyline in real time, as the focus of the season, could have been brilliant, it would have taken the focus off of the whole heaven/hell focus somewhat and added a new dimension. Now we just get crummy flashbacks and no doubt the exact same Dean and Sam stuck in their roles (although frankly you all seem to see slight changes in character to be blasphemy because every season must be a reboot of season one or two apparently) .
I think this season will do the show no good. They needed something new and fresh considering the loose plotting and fan-pandering of the last season. They needn’t have spent the whole season apart, but watch Sam struggle in real time to save his brother and the potential for interesting monsters and emotional meet-ups in purgatory would have been excellent, the reunion would be so much more genuine. I weep for supernatural, I remember when this show wasn’t about which group of fans could shout the loudest and get their way.
[quote]Well congratulations to all those who campaigned for the brothers to never be separated, now we’ve lost the chance for some real character development for both the boys. Why on earth they need to be consistently joined at the hip I don’t know
….
I think this season will do the show no good. They needed something new and fresh considering the loose plotting and fan-pandering of the last season. They needn’t have spent the whole season apart, [/quote]
Hee, Hee, Hee,
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. I’m trying to keep an open mind & give Carver a chance, but it’s hard after this news.
It sounds so much like pandering, & bold story telling is so needed now. At the beginning of S7, on TWOP, I posted that I didn’t like what SG had done, but I respected a gutsy choice in face of fan opposition. I was shocked when I saw she didn’t really have a good story that needed Castiel gone.
Then, I realized, removing Cas/Bobby weren’t great story choices. Destroying Cas/Bobby was scraping the bottom of the barrel, looking for decent drama after 7 seasons of too much focus on the same 1 relationship. SPN’s writing team must be as dysfunctional as the Winchesters & SPN fandom to keep at this.
I’ll give Carver a chance, but if it’s reheated leftovers, I hope J2 put a bullet in SPN’s head, & don’t renew for S9. I had too much respect for SPN. I used to think, “let it keep going as long as some fans still want it. I’ve moved on”. But that was before I saw the retroactively destructive retcons (like John Winchester). I haven’t decided yet whether to check out S8. I guess I’ll wait until my friends tell me on premier night.
Welcome to the world of every fan who has been disappointed by spoilers. People who disliked Cas felt this way when Cas kept coming back. The people who feel John has been trashed felt and continue to . The people who wanted to see Sam’s insanity instead of having it deus ex machinaed away felt like that. The people who were unhappy with “magical Bobby” finding all the answers felt this way. The people who liked Jo and Ellen and Ash all felt this way. It’s a passionate fandom. Many factions have made themselves heard. The writers have noted that fans in general get restive when the boys are separate. Making Purgatory look alien would be expensive. It’s a loud, passionate fandom. We speak our minds. Sometimes the writers seem to listen to one side or the other. Sometimes they are under orders from TPTB. Sometimes they are telling the story they want to tell. All sides have been disappointed before, and they will possibly be disappointed again.
Honestly reading most of the comments is depressing. Seriously. Watch the show or don’t. Don’t whine because it’s not your dream plot. I understand and acknowledge a lot of your opinions, but [i]some[/i] of you are way out of hand. I mean, everyone is going to have different views and wishes of what should happen. And that is perfectly fine and normal. But whining and moaning and complaining and boycotting, that’s not being a true fan. True fans trust the cast, crew, and director. If you’re that upset about it, write a fanfiction that has everything you desire and don’t watch the show. But I anticipate that you will miss out on a excellent season. Cheers.
True fans are people who still care about the show. Non-fans couldn’t care less what happens. There are a lot of people who don’t see the show the way I do, but I can’t say they don’t love the show. I’m not sure it’s fair to try and define a true fan. We come in many ways.
I completely agree. I didn’t mean to typecast the “perfect true fan”. Apologies.
[quote]If they don’t know what to do with a secondary character, they should not feel the need to include that character. Just saying.
[/quote]
Wink, wink. Is this about Castiel?
Well, maybe the writers have thought up compelling stories about Castiel & Dean & Sam & Bobby. But maybe said writers can’t tell those stories because they’ve got a millstone around their neck, “Sam + Dean must be together all the time” I’m sorry, but I don’t think S7 was all about SG being incompetent. Maybe the creative well is dry where Sam + Dean is concerned. SPN needs a shake up, and it’s not hopeful when I’m not hearing of one. I’ll gripe a bit, & go back to other shows. I’m glad I didn’t get my hopes up much.
SPN used to be braver. I can’t imagine Ruby was popular. But they kept with her.
I think the writers for Supernatural [i]have[/i] to be brave, because it is impossible to please the whole fandom. There will always be strong voices of dissatisfaction.
I trust that the writers are, as we speak, coming up for a cool arc for Castiel. His plot in the Supernatural world is by no means finished. Just think of all the loose threads he has yet to tie up! When the spoilers say the writers are still “framing out” Castiel’s role, that makes sense, because they are still currently writing the season. ๐ It doesn’t mean they don’t know what to do with him, or are neglecting him. ๐
I also don’t think the well is dry for Sam and Dean’s development, especially with new enemies and new friends to power the season. I’m a little disappointed that we’ll only be seeing flash-backs, but honestly, they could do great things with that anyway. We might have whole episodes of flash-backs, we just don’t know yet. ๐
Anyway, at least we get Cas back, this season. Always a cause for celebration, for the people who love him.
[quote]I also don’t think the well is dry for Sam and Dean’s development, especially with new enemies and new friends to power the season. I’m a little disappointed that we’ll only be seeing flash-backs, [/quote]
I don’t think that the well is fully dry either, but the well would be a lot fuller if we could see Sam or Dean alone more often.
It limits the writers to keep Sam/Dean together every episode. There are so many stories that the can’t explore, since neither brother can be on his own for long.
So yeah, after 7 years, it must be tough to think of new challenges & growth for framed in an episode where both brothers must be together.
[quote]รขโฌยฆmaybe said writers can’t tell those stories because they’ve got a millstone around their neck, “Sam + Dean must be together all the time” [/quote]
That’s an interesting way of looking at things actually, and I think is backed up by Singer’s quote about the possibility Charlie might be back because she isn’t seen as a threat to the “relationship between the boys.” (I’m paraphrasing).
Exactly, so we agree about this. ๐
I’m sorry to intrude on this one, but I tried to google any kind of Supernatural organization called the Vocal Majority, and couldn’t find one. As far as I’m able to tell, the term mostly relates to people discussing politics and social science. I wasn’t able to find an organization of that name. :/ Whereas, googling Silent Majority + Supernatural gave me their twitter and tumblr urls on the first page. So I think you might have been thinking of the wrong thing.
Restless was not trying to say they were the same, I don’t believe. Nor was she trying to say that the show writers should be trying to write the same kind of thing. She was simply pointing out that the potential for storytelling is limitless.
Characterization doesn’t actually limit storytelling ability, all that much. That’s where outside stimulation comes into play. The old “a man walks in with a gun” writing prompt illustrates that. When there is no force pushing characters out of their habits, there is no plot. But the Supernatural writers are (obviously) not done telling the story, by a long shot! It sounds to me like there is a lot of story-telling potential in the next season. ๐ Here’s hoping it’s awesome!
From the sounds of it, few people enjoyed the season, because it fell flat on emotion and depth. ๐ Whether they want the brothers to separate for a few episodes this season does not necessarily mean that their experience of the last season was invalid or pleasant. (Although it might have been, and that’s valid too.)
Yes and in fact, I still want them separated, because season 7 was horrible. a parody of the monster-of-the-week-show.
And I never want them to return to that.
Supernatural has been said to have a “cult following”. It’s not always a bad thing, especially when all it means is a small, dedicated group that bonds into a community over a shared passion. It doesn’t have to mean the same thing to you, but a lot of us choose to see the word in the above, positive light, especially where it applies to things we love, like Supernatural and its characters. ๐
I agree, many fans did not join in for exactly that reason. ๐ That’s why their following is so small.
It is okay to voice our opinions to the writers and actors etc, that’s the purpose of fanmail and conventions and polls, etc. What is not okay is trying to use numbers to pressure writers, directors, actors, etc, into doing what people want, as though this were parliament and not art. In the end, the creators of Supernatural are telling us a story. They would rather we liked it, as the length of the story depends on our approval and viewing. But ultimately, they make the artistic decisions, and we live with them, like it or not. ๐
Haha, I didn’t make a prediction that he would be. I was allowing for the event of something extreme or life-changing (and equally unlikely!) happening that would prevent him from continuing. But my point was, barring something huge like that, Sam will be a main character right through to the end of the season. ๐
Yeah . . . like the scene w/the girl stripping? What was that? Why was it included? I didn’t care for that scene at all! Everything w/that girl could have been cut or shortened. Nothing that happened w/her was entertaining.
Did you know they filmed a burial scene of Dean w/Sam and Bobby back in Season 4 during IKWYDLS? And it was cut for a Ruby scene! What a joke!
This finale sucked. Heck, the entire season sucked! I only enjoyed THREE episodes, and can’t really watch the one I really enjoyed (HCW) knowing the arc went nowhere and horribly failed to live up to expectations! There needs to be a redo of Season 7. LOL! Just start anew!
[quote]Oh, honey, don’t make things up. [/quote]
Please provide a link for “Vocal Majority” if it does indeed exist.
I have no idea what Operation Trenchcoat was but I can well imagine it met with derision from the very people who are now bombarding TPTB with tweets and complaints.
And I will quite happily report you for being so patronizing.
Agreed, Love!
I have never viewed Bobby or Castiel as “main” characters. They are side characters, IMO.
Am I the only one completely uninterested in ANY kind of romantic long-term relationship on this show – heterosexual, homosexual, polygamy, monogamy – none of that is why I watch Supernatural.
I have no burning desire to see either brother in a relationship w/anyone.
[quote][quote]Yes and in fact, I still want them separated, because season 7 was horrible. [/quote]
Again, not seeing the connection. To me that’s like saying, I want them to get motorbikes in Season 8, because Season 7 is proof that cars have gotten boring. The problem wasn’t that there’s still sticking with cars, the problem was that they ditched the Impala. The problem wasn’t that Sam and Dean still occasionally spoke to each other, the problem was that they never said anything meaningful.[/quote]
Perfectly stated!
The problem is not Sam and Dean being together. The problem is bad writing. The problem was they isolated the brothers and kept them in private bubbles. That was the problem!
The problem was definitely poor execution, I will agree.
The show, no matter what it gives fans, could be a stellar and enjoyable show, if executed correctly! Even fans who watch specifically for Cas, could be won over to story lines and episodes solely devoted to the brothers, if they were done very well. And same for the reverse — because that’s good television. I’ve been sucked into shows I thought would be terrible coming into them (Supernatural being one of these.)
That’s one of the reasons I’m so excited for the next season, because Jeremy Carver has been a consistently good writer and producer. I think the execution of the good ideas the Supernatural team comes up with will drastically improve this season. ๐
One of the rules here is not to label anyone else. Can I label myself? Cas Hater here. I completely, totally, and without reservation hate that fictional character. I have reasons, but I’m not changing anyone’s mind, so I won’t bother trying. I’m in it for the bromance. Give me that and a minimum of the obnoxious angel and I’m good.
In response to the idea of a boycott, I support it fully. If the Cas-fans are not happy with his absence, by all means, show it by withdrawing support. The show is a product, and a consumer boycott of a product is a time honored way of expressing an opinion. But if that were the plan last year (as it was intimated on web sites), it was not successful.
Allow me to attempt to differentiate between fact and opinion:
“I hate Cas.” is an opinion.
“Many fans hate Cas.” is an opinion of an opinion (rather like double hearsay).
That the 18-49 demo ratings from the show did not change (0.8 to 0.7) as a result of the character’s absence is a fact (if you accept tvbythenumber as an accurate source, which I do). This is evidence admissible in court.
That the much-heralded return of Cas was the lowest rated episode of the series at 0.6. This is fact. One can argue all kinds of reasons (Hunger Games, culmination of Sam’s story), but this is fact. Say it with me again – Cas back; lowest rating of series. And just admit, if it were the reverse – if the ratings had gone up – the Cas fans would be taking full faith and credit.
So, if there is too little dreadful angel, and his fans object, by all means twitter and tweet a boycott. And if there is too much dreadful angel and not enough Sam, don’t object to a boycott from the Sam-fans and bi-brother fans. I’d be happy to devote my non-lawyer time to organizing it. We’ll see who has the Nielson boxes.
[quote]One can argue all kinds of reasons (Hunger Games, culmination of Sam’s story), but this is fact. [/quote]
Sorry, but only the most blinkered of fans would even remotely suggest that the Hunger Games premier can be discounted (which in my opinion is exactly what you are doing). All of the ratings were down that night. If Supernatural’s low numbers had been related to Cas being in that episode, then only Supernatural’s numbers would have fallen.
[quote]if the ratings had gone up – the Cas fans would be taking full faith and credit.[/quote]
For all you know, the ratings would have been even lower without him in the episode. And you seem to be totally discounting other low numbers during S7 that were Cas-free episodes. If you’re going to imply (as you most definitely are imo) that Cas being in 7.17 lowered the ratings, then you obviously won’t mind me applying the same logic and implying that the fact he wasn’t in most of the others lowered their ratings.
Okay, I will agree that the Hunger Games affected the same day ratings. In that case, the difference should be made up in the live+7 ratings. I only have 18-49 numbers tracked, not total viewers because these are the numbers advertisers look at. Castiel’s return in episode 7.17 BAI adjusted up to 1.0 in this demo. However until BAI, all the other episodes adjusted up to at least 1.1 in the demo. For the rest of the season the +7s looked like this. 7.18 (Party On Garth) adjusted up in Live+7 to 1.1. 7.19 (Of Grave Importance also adjusted up to 1.1. Episode 7.20 (The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo) adjusted up to 1.1. Episode 7.21 Castiel returns in Reading is Fundamental adjusted up to 1.0 another season low. 7.22 (There Will Be Blood) stayed at 1.0 in the +7 ratings and 7.23(Survival of the Fittest with Castiel) did adjust up to 1.1.
Looking at the +7 numbers levels the playing field for movie openings, preemptions, sporting events and other events that could affect same day viewing in either a positive or negative way. The numbers show that in 2 out of 3 of Castiel’s return appearances fewer people in the coveted demographic watched than for any other episode except for There will be Blood. The season finale did have Castiel and it did reach the normal 1.1 demographic that the rest of the season’s episodes attained.
Does this PROVE that the presence of Castiel lowers the ratings? No, not really, although it is an interesting pattern. It does show that the presence of Castiel did not INCREASE the ratings in any way.
[quote]For all you know, the ratings would have been even lower without him in the episode. And you seem to be totally discounting other low numbers during S7 that were Cas-free episodes.[/quote]
Yes, it is possible that the ratings for the episodes would have been lower without him, that is a conjecture that can’t be proven either way. However, in the +7s there were NO lower numbers in the 18-49 demographics in episodes without Castiel, at least until an episode where Castiel was restored as an active part in Supernatural and after he was released from the asylum and presumably active in the story again. In any case, TPTB can’t make decisions based on Maybes or it could have beens. They have to look at hard data which does not demonstrate that Castiel is an advantage in the ratings.
[quote]One of the rules here is not to label anyone else. Can I label myself? Cas Hater here. I completely, totally, and without reservation hate that fictional character. I have reasons, but I’m not changing anyone’s mind, so I won’t bother trying. I’m in it for the bromance. Give me that and a minimum of the obnoxious angel and I’m good.[/quote]
Oh, and since you seem to be going all-out to inflame, here’s my contribution to that tactic:
One of the rules here is not to label anyone else. Can I label myself? Sam Hater here. I completely, totally, and without reservation hate that fictional character. I have reasons, but I’m not changing anyone’s mind, so I won’t bother trying. I’m in it for the D/C. Give me that and a minimum of the obnoxious little Sammy and I’m good.
We’ll see how long this one lasts as opposed to yours.
Hey people hate the characters they hate. If the writers interviews can be believed Sam isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. If previous interview with Jared can be believed, he has no intention of leaving the show on his own. If previous interviews with Jensen can be believed, Jensen will not continue with Supernatural if Jared and Sam aren’t in the story.
It sounds as if you may be watching a show which has a main character you dislike. I’m sorry that it will be an unhappy experience for you.
[quote] I’m sorry that it will be an unhappy experience for you.[/quote]
Not awful at all รขโฌโ I just fast-forward through the Sam scenes, as I’m sure you probably do with the Cas scenes. ๐
Oddly enough, I don’t. Now Sonny and Jason on General Hospital I do, but for prime time if I’m fast forwarding, I’m dropping the show.
OTOH, you must get through episodes of Supernatural in record time.
I really agree w/you there, Percy! I can understand FFing a soap opera (I’m enjoying Sason lately under the new writers myself) but not a primetime show. As you said, if I can’t stomach large portions of a cast on a primetime show, I’d just turn off the show.
I do wonder how those who FF all Sam scenes make it through any of the shows. Sam is in anywhere from 90-100% of the scenes. Why watch if you hate Sam that much? Doesn’t make much sense to me!
Ok [b]Clare[/b] I think alot us know how you feel .You dont like Sam you have made that pretty clear.
Others dont like Castiel so you cant really complain about what someone says on him .When you yourself have hate on Sam.
Nobody is required to like any character personally I dont care about Castiel one way or the other except how he is used regarding the story .
[quote]Ok [b]Clare[/b] I think alot us know how you feel .You dont like Sam you have made that pretty clear.
Others dont like Castiel so you cant really complain about what someone says on him .When you yourself have hate on Sam.
Nobody is required to like any character personally I dont care about Castiel one way or the other except how he is used regarding the story .[/quote]
How transparent you all are that you jump on me instead of the person who spouted the Cas hate to start with… but am I surprised? Not at all. ๐
Partly because the person who said she hated Cas hasn’t gone on and on about it. Plus perhaps Sam is just better liked than Cas. And this[quote]We’ll see how long this one lasts as opposed to yours.[/quote] was asking for a response. The other poster just stated their opinion and went on their merry way.
Surely Sam won’t just give up, move to the OC with some chick and become an underwear model. ๐
He’ll move Heaven, Hell, and Earth (maybe literally) to rescue his bro.
[quote] it will surly must be awfull watching a show knowing Sam isn’t going anywhere and he will be in every episode, while Cas isn’t.[/quote]
Not awful at all รขโฌโ I just fast-forward through Sam, as I’m sure you probably do with Cas.
I posted that link for the numbers, since that was a point in question. That’s why I pointed out the number of ‘individual signatures’, to show that there are many real fans who wish to see Castiel come back. That’s all.
However, I’m also aware of the history of fandom, such as for Star Trek the Original Series, which would never have had its second and third seasons if fans had not petitioned for it. So I don’t immediately stigmatize such movements, either. I do try to look at a movement’s motivation. I checked out the Vocal Majority before I decided not to be a part of it.
I personally believe there is a difference between banding together to ask for something positive, like a beloved character returning, and banding together for something negative, like asking that a cast member be fired (as some people tried to do earlier this year). To me, it’s similar to when a bunch of fans plot to show a bunch of rainbow slinkys to Jensen Ackles at a convention, or gift Misha Collins with a bunch of silly orange underwear, as opposed to when a group of fans plots to throw things at actors on stage out of spite, or when they organize hate days over twitter. I try to use my own discretion. I see where you might have seen that as a contradiction, even though I don’t consider it as such. But, as always, I’m only human. I’m glad I got to discuss this with you, however, even if I wish you’d addressed it on my post. ๐
[quote] I checked out the Vocal Majority before I decided not to be a part of it.
[/quote]
AHA. This is where the confusion is coming from! I meant to type, “Silent Majority”.
That makes a lot more sense. Too bad there’s no way for me to edit that.
Last time, for the record: I have found no evidence of an [b]organization[/b] called Vocal Majority. I have been to the Tumblr account for the [b]organization[/b] “Silent Majority” and decided I didn’t want to be a part of it. If someone sends me a link to an organization called the Vocal Majority in the SPN fandom, I will gladly retract my belief that it doesn’t exist.
Thank you!
Of course fans want their voices heard. ๐ That’s why [b]we[/b]’re here, commenting, isn’t it? ๐
I think there’s a difference, especially when it parses down to positivity vs. negativity. I can’t speak for every organization (much less every fan), but for me, if a group of fans band together to either 1) congratulate and celebrate the show on doing something great or 2) request a positive change, such as friendlier LGBT representation or the return of a beloved character, it’s alright. When it becomes a group of fans banding together to try to get an actor fired, or to ridicule and revile the choices of the show’s creators, I think it’s not okay, at all, and I choose not to participate. I see it as a difference between asking the show, as a group, to consider our desires, and demanding that the show do what we want. I try to use discernment, but I also realize not all group movements are a bad thing. After all, fan support has gotten many shows a reprieve from cancellation. The Firefly cast is having a special reunion (I think at ComicCon?) this year, because fans have begged for so long and so hard that something special be done to commemorate the 10th anniversary of the show. ๐ Positive things can come out of fan movements.
An organization called Vocal Majority does not exist in the SPN fandom, as far as I can discern from casual searching. I think they were just tweeting that as a counter-statement to the negative and discouraging messages from the Silent Majority. I could be wrong. I try to mostly maintain an atmosphere of positivity, and let these things roll by without me. (Although, I did participate in the WeLoveMisha day, that came as a reaction to a very small and vicious group of people tweeting the cast to fire Misha. I thought that was crossing a big line, so I took a stand, there.)
The producers and writers of Supernatural have assured us that they pay attention to our feedback. I try to make mine positive, because I love the show and believe they’re doing their best to make it awesome for us. ๐
Dean (and potentially Sam too? We don’t know when the badges were made, or anything, to indicate whether both brothers were involved) took the time to prepare for Castiel being on cases with them. He had to make up fake names for Cas, had to manipulate digital imagery, and print them up. Cas didn’t even know he’d done this, because Cas wasn’t thinking that far ahead yet. But Dean thought Castiel would be with them in the future. He counted on it. So he made up the badges. He knew Cas was their comrade now, for the long haul, whether or not that was a familial move. ๐
Please consider your statement about Soulless!Sam. He didn’t have emotions, so my answer to that would be, obviously no. But Dean had emotions. Dean sometimes hated his family, and resented them. Sometimes (as in Adam’s case) he barely knew them. But if you were Dean’s family, he’d do his best for you. Doesn’t mean he’d love you to the point of tears, but he’d do his best as your relative. John drilled the point home in Dean from a young age that family was [b]paramount[/b]. Bobby reinforced to Dean that family didn’t end with blood. With the exception of Sam and John, Dean’s closest “family” are people he wasn’t related to, at all. (Ben, Lisa, Bobby, Jo, Ellen, and Cas, primarily.) The people Dean had the closest familial ties with (again, outside Sam and John) were the people he specifically adopted into his family circle. The intentionality of it made them family.
Trying to argue that you have to be blood-related to matter to someone as family is discounting whole family groups that exist today, with adopted children, step-parents, spouses, the odd “uncle” or godparent, grandpa’s third and best wife, etc. It’s just not a logical argument, especially not for Dean.
No, no, please don’t misunderstand me. I have known about the Silent Majority since it started (over on Tumblr), but I was not plugged into Twitter at that time. But I CONJECTURE that the tweets you observed were not from an [b]organization[/b] called Vocal Majority (because there isn’t one, in the last two days I’ve checked) but rather from fans who were using an opposite terminology to negate the outcry of the Vocal Majority. I can only guess at that, because I don’t know, and wasn’t there or involved.
You are wrong about there being no hate on that day. People sent tweet messages TO THE CAST of Supernatural, trying to get Misha fired. I was angry. So was Jim Beaver. Check his tweet log, he stood up for Misha. It doesn’t matter to me if an organization is private; if it stands for hate, I oppose it, and will do my best to peaceably short-circuit it. If that means I join in tweeting love messages on Twitter, or supporting a character I admire on fan forums, then I’m all in.
All the love that came out of that day was an overwhelming reaction to the outrageous idea that anyone would go so far out of bounds as to try to get a young actor, with a young family to support, fired from his job because they found his character or performance distasteful.
Petitions, polls, forums, etc, are always helpful. They show a sense of communal solidarity, if nothing else. I would be so much more concerned if no one cared enough to participate with the show. To me, activity such as this displays a passionate fan base. ๐
Yes, I list the reasons why below.
I’m also the person who has 1) defended people’s right to ship wincest and 2) defended Sam Winchester’s character on this comment section.
I try to be as fair as possible, to all parts of this fandom. ๐ I love the show, it’s three main cast and characters, and I want to see the show thrive. I stand by what I’ve said.
No.
Again, I state,
I believe fans were [b]probably[/b] using the term “vocal majority” to spite the [b]organization[/b] Silent Majority.
There was not (to my limited and retroactive knowledge from looking into it [b]only in the past two days[/b]) an [b]organization[/b] named the Vocal Majority in the Supernatural fandom. It hasn’t left any online tracers that I’ve picked up, from casual searching. I was not involved in Twitter at the time, and so do not know for 100% surety whether or not the above is true. It is my conjecture. I hope I have spoken plainly enough for you to understand.
Bitchiness is never pleasant, nor are misunderstandings, miscommunication, or bashing. That should not happen. I love to network with the fans. I also love the idea that the creators of the show I love pay attention to us, and consider us important. It’s part of what makes being a fan of a small show so fun.
The term fan-service is over-used and inherently contradictory. I personally move it be stricken from debates, from hence forth. So far as I’ve seen, it has only been used, on all sides, to shame the legitimate story-telling choices that the creator’s make. Since television is, in fact, only fan-service in that it exists to entertain fans using any and all tools available, the argument about whether or not one plot point is[b] more[/b] of a fan-service than another, is irrelevant, and purile.
Agreed.
I don’t hate Castiel, but I didn’t miss him last season when he was not around. I didn’t start watching this show in Season 4. I started in Season 1 when no one ever heard of Castiel. I continue to watch for Sam and Dean. They are the staples for me. Without them, I’m not watching. Cas can come or go; it makes no difference to me.
Okay, agree to disagree.
Like so:
People received anonymous messages on Tumblr, inviting them to join the Twitter group. It was meant to privately rally hate against an actor, and therefore was despicable to me. It came after a volley of hate messages that wished he would be “set on fire”. These messages were sent specifically to people who loved him, to hurt them. They were not sent by people who loved him. The responding movement WeLoveMishaCollins [b]was[/b] started by people who love him. I’m glad there was such an overwhelmingly positive response. I am proud that instead of hate, the day was about love. Positivity won that day; as I hope it will continue to win in the future.
I am not blind, but I am tenacious, you are right. I am also doing my very best to be specific, and honest in my dialogue with you. We definitely disagree a lot, but frankly, that’s our right as fans, and as people.
If I see any sort of hate towards the other actors, I act against that hate. I always have done, so long as I’ve been involved in this fandom.
There now. We are disagreed.
I would love to see Robert England and Bruce Campbell as guest stars in season eight. They are legends of supernatural genra media and I believe they would be an epic addition to the show. They had Linda Blair on as the Det. and they should be to get Rob and Bruce. Robert played a demon that haunted derams (and they made a ref. to it in season 2 I belive). Bruce fought demons in three evil dead movies and so forth (four if you count the prequal “within the woods”). If writers and/or directors/producers read this then you need to recruit them immediately. Robert England guest stared on Hawaii 5-0 for crying out loud. Get them, it will be very popular episodes.
Ok for the Comic-Con pics. Sam doesn’t deserve the front Dean is the ultimate brother besides he is soooooo much hotter!!!!!! ๐ ๐
How rude, plus mileage varies.