Robin’s Rambles – “Appointment In Samarra”
–Robin’s Rambles by Robin Vogel
Through a secret entrance in Chinatown, Dean goes downstairs to visit a mysterious doctor who knew his father. He squeezes Dean’s cheeks and says, “That was ages ago, when I still had my medical license. Right this way.” “I’m no germ freak,” says Dean, following him into the filthy office. “Rent’s cheap,” the doctor says. “Eva, my assistant,” introduces the doctor, pointing out a creepy looking brunette who could have been lifted from any Frankenstein flick. She nods coldly at Dean. “Hop right up,” bids the doc, slapping a medical table. “You’ve done this a lot,” states Dean nervously. “Many many times,” the doc assures him. “And your success rate?” asks Dean. “Excellent, almost 75 percent,” Doc says, “so, should we get the preliminaries out of the way?” Dean, undoubtedly considering the 25% failure rate, says “Yeah, right,” and hands him an envelope filled with money. Taking off his jacket, Dean says, “If something. . .” “Goes wrong?” finishes Doc. Dean hands him an envelope addressed to Benjamin Braeden. “Sure,” Doc says, “woulda thought you’d had somethin’ for your brother Sam.” “If I don’t make it back, nothing I say is gonna mean a damn thing to him,” says Dean. (Awww, that’s just so sad!) Eva shoves Dean down on the table and drives a needle into his arm. It hurts. He grunts. “Don’t be a baby,” she says icily. “A little bedside manner’d be nice,” says Dean. She gives him a look that says she disagrees. “Are we ready?” asks Doc. Dean makes uncomfortable faces. Inserting a needle into Eva’s inserted catheter, Doc reminds him, “You’ve got three minutes.” As the fluid enters Dean’s body, his heart beats faster and faster–then goes flatline. “No pulse, no sinus rhythm,” says Eva. “He’s dead,” says Doc. Dean’s spirit stares at his dead body. “Good times,” he says. He exits Doc’s office and walks, unseen, into the Chinese grocery. “This better work,” he says, and speaks an incantation in another language. “Dean?” says a voice behind him–“what the hell?” It’s Tessa! “What do you know, it worked,” he exults. “I was in the Sudan,” she says, displeased, “what’s with yanking me up–why are you dead?” “Because I need a favor,” he says. “Oh, you’re kidding me,” she says, “you died to ask me–” “Tell your boss I need to speak to him,” says Dean. “No,” says Tessa. “Please?” begs Dean. “Where do you get the nerve?” she asks. “Desperate times,” answers Dean. “He calls us, we don’t call him,” she says. “Make an exception,” insists Dean. “I can’t,” she says. “Can’t or won’t?” he asks. “Both,” she says. “All right, Tessa, thank you very much,” says a deep voice behind Dean, who turns and sees DEATH. “Hello, Dean,” he greets him.
Editor’s stream of consciousness: I have always loved SUPERNATURAL’s secondary characters, and these two were fantastic. Eva, cruel and quiet, more of a torture artist than a doctor’s assistant, and the doctor himself, no longer worthy of having a license, making illegal money doing illicit medicine on hunters and probably other underground folks needing his services.
So Dean has done this crazy thing–put himself to death temporarily–in order to see Tessa and ask her to ask Death to get in touch. She refuses, telling him he’s got nerve, but Death shows up, apparently enthralled that Dean wanted to see him again and probably curious to know why. As someone who found Julian Richings’ performance as Death a sheer delight, I was ecstatic to see him again, and looking forward to seeing what would happen! “I’m busy, Dean, talk fast,” orders Death. “I have something of yours,” Dean reminds him. “My ring? I recall loaning you that temporarily,” says Death. “Well if you want it back–” says Dean. “I’m sorry, you assume that I don’t know where you’ve hidden it,” says Death, “now we’ve established that you have hubris but no leverage–what is it you want?”
Back on the table, Doc and Eva are timing Dean’s death scene.
“Lucifer’s cage–I figure you’re one of the few people who can actually jailbreak it,” says Dean, “Sam’s soul is stuck in that box.” “I’ve heard,” says Death. “And our other brother is trapped in there, too, Michael rode him in,” says Dean. (We were wondering when Adam would come up.) “Quit shuffling and deal,” orders Death. “I want you to get them both out,” says Dean. “Pick one,” says Death.
Another shot of Doc monitoring the flat-lined Dean.
“What?” asks Dean. “Sam’s soul or Adam’s,” says Death, “as a rule, I don’t bring people back–I might make an exception once, not twice, so, pick.” “Sam,” says Dean, no hesitation, sitting across from Death, “his soul has been in there for a year, and I understand it’s–damaged.” “Flayed to the raw nerve,” agrees Death. “Is there any way you can, I don’t know, hack the hell part off?” asks Dean. Death and Tessa look at each other hopelessly.
Eva counts down from four and says “Now.” Doc applies resuscitation paddles to Dean’s chest, twice.
“Dean, Dean, Dean,” sighs Death, standing next to Tessa, “What do you think the soul is? Some pie you can slice? The soul can be bludgeoned, tortured, but never broken, not even by me.” “There’s got to be something,” insists Dean. “Maybe,” says Death, “can’t erase Sam’s hell, but I can put it behind a wall in his mind to hold back the tide–nasty, those memories–you don’t want to know what they’ll do to him, believe me.” “OK, a wall, sounds good,” says Dean. “But it’s not permanent,” warns Tessa. “She’s right, nothing lasts forever,” says Death, “well, I do.” “OK,” says Dean, “this is the choice–Sam with no soul or Sam with some drywall that, if or when it collapses, he’s. . .done?” Death nods. “Do it,” says Dean. “I never said I’d ‘do it,'” Death reminds him. “Then what have we been talkin’ about?” demands Dean. “Your price–IF you win the wager,” says Death. “Great–what’s the bet?” asks Dean ironically. Death gets in his face, scaring the crap out of Dean. “Don’t roll your eyes,” warns the Horseman, “that’s in blood. Now when you fetch my ring, put it on.” “What?” says Dean. “I want you to be me, for one day,” says Death. “Are you serious?” asks Dean. “No I’m being incredibly sarcastic,” says Death, rolling HIS eyes.
Unable to bring Dean back, Doc orders adrenalin be administered. Eva does.
“Take the ring off before the 24 hours are up, you lose,” says Death, “no soul for Sam, that clear?” “OK, yes,” agrees Dean, dazed, “but why?” “Simple, Dean,” says Death, “because–“
At that moment, Doc and Eva bring Dean back to life. “Oh, thank Moses!” exclaims Doc. Dean sits up with a gasp. “Couldn’t you have given me five more seconds?” he says. “Son, you were gone for seven minutes,” says Doc. “I was?” asks Dean. “Mmmm hmmm,” says Doc, “I thought for sure Death had you by the twins.” Dean drops his head back on the table thinking, Doc is right: Death DOES have him by the twins.
Bobby Singer’s home – The brothers argue this out in front of Bobby, who listens from the sofa. “You WHAT?” demands Sam, hearing what Dean has done. “Just hear me out,” his brother says. “I heard Cas,” cries Sam, “and Crowley, when they said it would either kill me or turn me to Jello, Dean, I heard enough!” “Death said he can put up a wall,” Dean says. “A wall,” repeats Sam. “A wall that you wouldn’t remember hell,” says Dean. “For good, like, a cure,” says Sam. “No, it’s not a cure,” says Dean, “he said it could last a lifetime.” (LIAR!) “Great,” says Sam, “so playin’ pretty fast and loose with my life here, doncha think, Dean?” “I’m tryin’ to SAVE your life!” insists Dean. “Exactly, it’s MY life, it’s MY soul,” says Sam, “sure as hell ain’t your head that’s gonna explode when this scheme of yours goes sideways!” The brothers gaze at each other, hurt. Bobby stands and wants to know what Death gets out of this; he’s not doing it out of the goodness of his heart–“So what’s your half of the deal?” When Dean is silent, Bobby presses, “I’m sorry, I didn’t get that.” After Dean explains about having to wear the ring for a day, Bobby wants to know, “Why the hell would he want you to do that?” “To get his rocks off, I dunno,” says Dean, “but I’m doin’ it.” Sam starts to leave. Dean wants to know where. “Look, I hear you, I get it,” Sam says, “I just need a minute to wrap my head around it.” He leaves. Dean doesn’t trust him, and goes out with Bobby to find him. Out amongst dead car carcasses, Sam gazes at a hole in the ground. “Lookin’ for this?” asks Dean, holding up Death’s ring. “Just takin’ a walk,” says Sam. Putting the ring in his pocket, Dean says, “Sam, I’m your brother, and I’m not gonna let you get hurt–I know what I’m doin’ here.” “What if you’re wrong?” asks Sam. “I won’t let it go wrong,” says Dean. “Fine,” says Sam. “Fine,” repeats Dean. “So I’m trusting you here,” says Sam. “You sure?” asks Dean. “You’re the one with the compass, right,” says Sam, “just don’t mess it up.” “I won’t,” Dean assures him, and, passing by Bobby, says, “Watch him.” Sam and Bobby raise eyebrows at each other and enter the house. “So is this the part where you pull a gun on me and lock me in the panic room?” asks Sam. “Do I have to?” asks Bobby. “No,” says Sam, “guess Dean’s gotta do what he’s gotta do.” “I guess we all do, kid,” mutters Bobby.
Standing amongst Bobby’s cars, Dean says, “Here goes everything,” and slips on Death’s ring. The stone changes color. “Wow, just let any slack-jaw with a haircut be Death these days,” mocks Tessa as he appears on a city street corner. “You’re all charm today, aren’t you?” says Dean. “Let’s be clear, so we can get through this with a minimum of screw-up,” she says, “I don’t like this–right now, I’m not crazy about you, either.” She walks past him, annoyed. “This is your boss’ idea, not mine,” he says. “True,” she says, “but you have a long history of throwing a wrench in everything, so stick to the rules, deal?” “Rules are?” he asks. “For the next 24 hours, you kill everyone whose number is up,” she says. “How am I supposed to know who to–” “Kill?” she finishes–“I have a list.” He wants to see it. “No,” she says, “you touch them, they die, I reap them–are we clear?” “Yeah I guess,” he says. “Remove the ring, you lose,” she says, “slack off, you lose, got it?” “Yeah,” he says. “Don’t mess this up,” she warns, “it’s not my job to be your babysitter.”
Inside a huge warehouse, Sam summons Balthazar. “This had better be good,” the angry angel warns him.
Editor’s Stream of Consciousness – Don’t you love how Dean thinks he can hold back Death’s ring, or dare to threaten the powerful Horseman?
Fans have been wondering why there has been no mention of Adam since the beginning of the season–here you go. Given the choice of Sam or Adam, Dean didn’t hesitate–Sam all the way. That’s no surprise. What IS a surprise is how easily Dean agrees to the wall in Sam’s skull, even though, when it breaks (and it WILL break, both Tessa and Death assure him), SAM WILL DIE. Sam realizes this, too, and calls his brother on it, but Dean is adamant. Even though Sam reminds him, “It’s MY life, MY soul,” Dean doesn’t seem to care–or his hubris extends to thinking he’s God and has control over even the wall in Sam’s head. Or, he’s the REAL villain in this season and he WANTS Sam’s head to explode.
Tessa reminds Dean that he has a long history of throwing a wrench in everything, which clued me in to the reason Death gave him this task.
Unable to snag Death’s ring before Dean, Sam summons angel Balthazar, who doesn’t seem at all pleased to see him. What’s their history? Balthazar is stunned that Sam has summoned him, “the angel who wants to kill him.” “Desperate times,” says Sam, echoing what Dean said earlier to Death. Hearing that Sam needs his help, Balthazar recalls that the last time they met, Sam said he wanted to fry the angel’s wings “extra crispy.” “That was a misunderstanding,” insists Sam. “Some misunderstanding!” says Balthazar. Sam needs advice. “Go ask your boyfriend,” suggests the angel. (Is that how Sam and Cas are seen by others up there?) “Cas can’t help me,” says Sam, “I need to know if there’s a spell or weapon, anything, that can keep a soul OUT–forever.” “Aww, what’s going on, Sam?” asks Balthazar. “It’s for me,” admits Sam. “The plot thickens,” remarks the angel, grinning, “where’s your soul, Sam?–dear God, no, it’s not still. . .?” Sam nods. “It is!” realizes Balthazar. “My brother found a way to put it back in me,” says Sam, “I don’t want it.” “No, you don’t,” agrees the angel, because Michael and Luci are hate-banging it as we speak.” “Can you help me?” asks Sam. “Oh yes,” says Balthazar, “the question is, will I?” “Set your terms,” says Sam. “I’ll do it for free,” says Balthazar, “you seem like a capable young man, I’d love to have you in my debt; I have to say, I’m not a fan of your brother’s, so screwing him would delight me–anyway, to business. To find all the ingredients should be easy enough, there’s one tricky part, however–you need to scar your vessel. Meaning something that so pollutes it, it renders it uninhabitable. Of course, there’s something very specific–patricide.” “My Dad’s been dead for years,” says Sam. “To be clear, you need the blood of your father, but your father needn’t be blood,” says Balthazar. “Comprende?) (uh oh!) Sam does.
Walking together down the street, Tessa warns Dean that people who die might have questions for him. “Like how did Betty White outlast me?” asks Dean. (LMAO!) “‘What’s it all mean?’ is popular,” she says. “Am I just magically going to know?” he asks. “No,” she answers. “What the hell am I supposed to say?–come on, give me somethin'” he pleads. “Suck it up, comes with the gig,” she says. They come across a tense scene, a robbery in a drugstore. A man is holding a gun on a clerk and his trembling little boy. “They can’t see or hear you,” says Tessa, “just play out.” “Who am I taking?” asks Dean. “Just wait and see,” she advises. “Which one?” demands Dean. “You want me to shoot the kid?–hurry!” orders the robber–“you think I’m kidding? Don’t forget the drawer under the register!” The clerk pulls his son more tightly to his side and pushes the bag of money to the floor. When the robber bends to get it, the clerk grabs a gun from the drawer and shoots the burglar in the chest. He falls, blood gurgling from his mouth. Tessa gives Dean the nod and he goes over to the burglar. “Hello, tick-tock,” says Tessa, noting Dean’s hesitation. “He’s in agonizing pain, right?” asks Dean. “Yes,” she replies. “Give me a minute,” says Dean. She sighs. Dean finally bends down and puts the guy out of his misery. He touches his hand, the burglar dies, and his spirit asks, “Why?” “Mostly because you’re a dick,” replies Dean, “enjoy the ride down, pal, trust me, sauna gets hot!” Tessa gives him a disapproving look as she reaps the guy and leads him off. “That wasn’t so hard,” says Dean.
At a park cafe, Dean and Tessa come across a portly man eating pizza. “This smells like a heart attack,” says Dean, and sure enough, the guy falls from his seat to the ground. Dean touches him to death. “Why?” asks the man, gazing down at his dead self. “The extra cheese?” suggests Dean. “Yeah, it was good though,” the man says. “A local place?” asks Dean. “Dean,” warns Tessa. “Time to go, man, sorry,” says Dean. As Tessa is leading him away, the guy asks what it all means. “Everything is dust in the wind,” quotes Dean wisely. “That’s IT?” the guy asks, upset–“a Kansas song?” “Sorry, he’s new,” says Tessa, taking him away. Dean feels bad, but he tried.
Sam returns to Bobby’s. “I woke up and you were gone,” says Bobby, “where ya been?” “Just drivin’ around, no biggie,” says Sam. Bobby pours each of them a shot and you can feel, smell, hear and taste the cat and mouse game starting.
Hospital – “After you, boss,” says Tessa. A father is sitting on the bed next to his 12-year-old daughter, showing her photos from her past. Her nurse, Jolene, is there, too. Learning he must take the little girl, Dean is devastated. “You thought it was going to be all armed robbers and heart attacks waiting to happen?” asks Tessa. “Twelve!” points out Dean. “With a serious heart condition,” says Tessa. “Who’s next on the list?” asks Dean. “You have to take her,” insists Tessa, “it’s Destiny.” “Give me a break,” says Dean, “I spent my whole life fighting that crap, there’s no such thing as destiny, just as there was no apocalypse–just a bunch of stuck-up mooks who didn’t want us human slaves asking questions–well I say, the little girl lives.” “Do you know what’s amazing?” asks Tessa, “you don’t actually buy a word you’re saying.” “Yes I do,” says Dean. “Oh, really,” says Tessa, “so all the times you messed with life and death, they just worked out for you? It’s just a beach party every time, huh?” Well I know this much,” says Dean, “I’m Death, she’s twelve, and she’s not dying today.” They eye each other speculatively.
Bobby and Sam play poker, the latter eying a potential weapon to bludgeon Bobby with. They each toss in chips.
Tessa and Dean listen to a doctor telling the little girl’s father that her heart miraculously healed. The doctor calls it a miracle and says he won’t have to operate. Father and daughter, delighted, race her wheelchair down the hallway. The nurse who was supposed to operate on the child walks right through Tessa, telling her husband she’s coming home early. “We have more work here,” says Tessa, “come on.”
When Bobby goes to the fridge for more booze, Sam attempts to strike him with a heavy object, but Bobby, expecting it, knocks him out instead. “I may have been born at night, boy, but it wasn’t last night,” says Bobby. He reaches for rope to tie up Sam–but he’s gone! “Not good,” mutters Bobby.
Editor’s stream of consciousness: Sam summons angel Balthazar, who apparently hates both him and Dean. He asks him to help him prevent the re-insertion of his soul. It appears that Sam is really chummy with the angels, even as frenemies. Since when is Cas his boyfriend? (When B said, “Michael and Luci are hate-banging it as we speak, meaning Sam’s soul, I just got chills of misery!)
Very Dean-like to let the burglar lie in pain before killing him, wasn’t it? Plus he was glad to let him know he was going down to hell. Even as Death, he remained DEAN. On to the pizza/heart attack guy, and Dean had no problem offing a fat junk-food junkie who had earned his fate. The guy loved the cheese, and Dean was surprised it was a local place (once again, selfish Dean), but offered the guy only the foolish comfort of cliche words from a Kansas song.
HOWEVER, cue the required death of the 12-year-old girl. Just like he wouldn’t let his brother die and used a demon to bring him back to life (messing with the natural order of things for the first time), Dean played GOD and DEATH here and went off-list, deciding the child had to live. Tessa reminds him of all the other times he messed with what should have been.
Bobby and Sam are in a cat and mouse game. The only question in, who’s the cat and who’s the mouse? They’re both smart, savvy hunters. It’s a toss-up. Bobby cocks his gun. “Let’s not do anything hasty here, Sam,” he says, searching the living room. He locks one door, opens the closet and goes inside. Sam begins hacking away at the door with an ax. “Don’t say ‘Here’s Johnny,'” asks Bobby. (LOL!) “I’ve got to do this, Bobby,” says Sam breathlessly, blood dripping from a cut on his forehead, “I’m sorry–you shouldn’t have cornered yourself.” “I didn’t,” says Bobby, who pulls a lever, sending Sam tumbling into the basement below. Sam’s leg is now bleeding, too. Sam hurries up the basement steps, but finds himself barred by a door. Taking the tire iron he found on the floor, Sam begins to bang away at it. “Reinforced steel core, titanium kick plate,” says Bobby, “get comfy. You want to explain what this is about?” “I just have to do this, Bobby,” says Sam. “Says who?” asks Bobby. “If Dean shoves that soul inside me, think how bad that’ll really be,” says Sam, sitting with his back to the door, “I can’t let it happen, Bobby. It’s not like I want to kill you, you’ve been nothin’ but good to me.” “So, what–demon deal or somethin’?” asks Bobby. “Spell,” says Sam. “You’re makin’ a mistake,” says Bobby. “I’m tryin’ to survive,” corrects Sam. “Dean’s got a way to make it safe,” says Bobby. “”Oh, yeah,” says Sam, “some wall inside my head, that MAYBE stays up?–come on!” “If it works–” begins Bobby. “What if it doesn’t?” asks Sam–“Dean doesn’t care about me, he just cares about his little brother, Sammy, burning in hell–he’ll kill me to get that other guy back.” “I know how scary it is,” admits Bobby, “but you know what’s scarier?–YOU, right now–you’re not in your right head, Sam–you’re not givin’ us much choice here. . .Sam? BALLS!” Opening the door, he sees no one. He cocks his gun. “Ain’t nobody killin’ me in my house but me,” he says, and slowly heads downstairs. “I don’t wanna blow your legs out, boy, but I will.” He looks through the peep door into the panic room, finding blood on the door handle.
“You going to give me the silent treatment now–really?” Dean asks Tessa, annoyed. She has other things on her mind. “Damn it, I knew it,” she says, watching as Jolene, the little girl’s nurse, is brought in with massive trauma after a terrible car accident. “You let the girl live,” explains Tessa, “nurse goes home early, gets in a crash she wouldn’t have, she needs the heart surgeon, where is he.” “You knew this would happen,” accuses Dean. “Just knew that you knocked over the domino,” she clarifies. As her co-workers try desperately to revive Jolene, Tessa orders, “Take her.” “Why? She’s not on the list!” cries Dean. “Everything you do has consequences,” says Tessa, “do you want to set off another chain reaction?” “She’s got nothin’ to do with this,” insists Dean. “You put on the ring, now do your damn job,” the reaper says. “All right,” says Dean, hating all of this, but he touches the nurse’s hand, putting her down. Jolene’s spirit asks if she’s dead. “Yes,” says Tessa, “I’m sorry. So young. Actually, you were supposed to live for many decades, have kids, grand-kids.” “Then why?” asks Jolene. “Because he screwed up,” says Tessa, indicating a guilty-looking Dean. “You did this to me?” asks Jolene. “Come on, it’s time,” says Tessa, leading Jolene away. “Wait!” says Dean, adding, ineffectually, “I’m sorry.” The two women walk off. In rushes Jolene’s upset husband, who sobs over her dead body.
Tessa and Dean are back at the 12-year-old girl’s bedside, where she and her dad are eagerly making plans to travel where he met her mother. “You saw what happened to the nurse,” says Tessa, “go and kill that girl, Dean. I tried to tell you what you already know–she’s disrupting the natural order by being alive–you of all people know what that means–chaos and sadness will follow her for the rest of her life–we tried it your way.” Dean has been watching Jolene’s drunken husband stumbling to his car. Give me a minute,” says Dean. “What?” she says, but Dean has disappeared.
Bobby finds more fresh blood on the ground near a car, then the double door handles of a shed. Pushing the doors open, Bobby peers inside. Sam strikes him from behind, knocking him unconscious, and drags him away.
Jolene’s depressed husband is drinking booze from a bottle inside a paper bag, Dean sitting shotgun. The man can’t see him in his guise as Death, but it doesn’t stop Dean from telling him to pull over and not get himself killed. Mr. Jolene only presses harder on the accelerator. “Stop the car! What are you doing, stop the car!” shouts Dean, pulling on the tight-fitting ring. “Son-of-a-bitch!” he complains as it finally comes free. Suddenly spotting his passenger, Mr. Jolene crashes head-first into a parked car. Dean stares at the ring in his hand, realizing he’s lost. “Damn it,” he says. Mr. Jolene is pillowed in an air bag.
Editor’s stream of consciousness: It killed me to watch what was happening between Bobby and Sam. When the latter sat against the door and laid out his heart, I felt like crying. “Dean doesn’t care about me, he just cares about his little brother, Sammy, burning in hell–he’ll kill me to get that other guy back.” Notice how Sam refers to himself in the third person? THAT OTHER GUY? Breaks my heart. They are parts of a whole, not two separate people, yet that IS how Dean has been treating them. Yet Bobby, too, is right–this Sam is scarier than anything.
“Everything you do has consequences,” says Tessa, “do you want to set off another chain reaction?” So by not killing the little girl, Jolene, the nurse, who isn’t supposed to die for many years, dies instead, setting off a domino effect of consequences. Which sends Jolene’s husband, Scott, off on a drunken drive, forcing Dean to pull off the ring in order to prevent him from killing a busload of people. He saves Scott, but loses his bet with Death. So, Dean the Hero saves the stranger, which has been his life’s mission, but now has lost his brother’s soul.
Oh, and that cat and mouse game between Sam and Bobby? Sam won. Dean struggles from the wrecked car as Scott awakens behind the wheel. “Tessa!” he calls. “You there, Tessa? I lost! Sam’s screwed, ya happy? The least you can do is send my ass back home! Hello???!!!” Receiving no answer, Dean replaces the ring on his finger–disappears from Scott’s sight and reappears in front of Tessa. “I lost the bet,” says Dean. “Sorry about your brother,” she says. “Let’s just go,” says Dean. “Go where–we’re done,” she says. “Unfinished business,” he says harshly, staring at the little girl and her father. “It’s over, you took the ring off,” says Tessa, “anyway, I thought you wanted the girl to skate by.” “No one really skates by,” says Dean, “do they?” He kneels down and speaks softly in the father’s ear: “You should say your goodbyes, man.” “I must have dozed off,” says the dad, awakening. She, however, has flat-lined. “I’m dead?” asks her spirit. “I’m sorry,” says Dean harshly. “But what about my dad?” she asks. “He’ll be fine,” says Dean. “Really?” asks the little girl. “I have no idea,” confesses Dean. “I can’t just leave him!” cries the girl–“it’s not fair!” “I know,” says Dean. “Then why?” the child asks. “Because,” answers Dean, kneeling, “there’s a sort of natural order to things.” “Natural order is STUPID,” pronounces the girl. “I agree with you there,” says Dean, standing. Tessa leads the reluctant girl away while Dean looks depressed.
“Listen to me,” says Bobby nervously, “you don’t wanna do this. Sam!” Sam has tied Bobby to a chair, sitting over what looks like a Devil’s Trap and is examining a deadly-looking knife. “I’ve been like a father to you, boy,” says Bobby desperately, “somewhere inside, you’ve GOT to know that!” “That’s just it,” says Sam, tipping Bobby’s head back to expose his throat, “sorry.” Bobby makes noises of protest as Sam draws back the knife, but Dean appears to stay his brother’s hand. “Sam, I’m back,” Dean says, and punches him hard. Bobby takes several deep breaths of relief.
Dean gazes sadly into the panic room, where an unconscious Sam is once again chained to the cot. “We can’t keep doin’ this, Bobby,” he says, “what, am I goin’ to tie him up every time he tries to kill someone? That’s not gonna hold him, I mean he’s. . .” “. . .capable of anything,” finishes Bobby. Dean looks at Death’s ring, clutches it in his hand. “What am I supposed to do here?” he asks. “I dunno,” says Bobby softly. Inside the panic room, Sam awakens and locks on his brother’s eyes looking in at him. They stare at each other, then Dean closes the little door. Upstairs, Dean finds Death awaiting him, chowing down on a hot dog, at the same table where Bobby and Sam were playing poker. “Dean–join me,” he invites, “brought you one from a little stand in Los Angeles known for their bacon dogs.” When Dean just stares, Death orders, “Sit.” Dean does so, asking, “What’s with you and cheap food?” “I could ask you the same thing,” points out Death, “thought I’d have a treat before I put the ring back on.” Dean takes out the ring. “Heavier than it looks, isn’t it?” asks Death–“sometimes you just want the thing off–but you know that.” Noting the expression on Dean’s face, Death says, “Not hungry?” “Look,” says Dean, placing the ring on the table, “I think you know that I flunked, so there. Oh, by the way, I sucked at being you; I screwed up the natural order thing, but I’m sure you knew about that too.” “So,” asks Death, “if you could go back, would you simply kill the little girl, no fuss, no stomping your feet?” “Knowing what I know now, yeah,” answers Dean. “I’m surprised to hear that,” says Death, “surprised and glad.” “Well don’t get excited, I would have saved the nurse, OK, that’s it,” says Dean. “It’s a little more than that,” says Death, “today, you took a hard look behind the curtain–wrecking the natural order is not quite such fun when you have to mop up the mess, is it?–this is hard for you, Dean, if you throw away your life because you’ve come to assume it will bounce right back into your lap. A human soul is not irreparable, it’s vulnerable, impermanent, but stronger than you know–and more valuable than you can imagine.” Dean stares at him. “So,” says Death, “I think you’ve learned something today.” (Him and the boys from SOUTH PARK.) “You wanna know what I think?” asks Dean–“I think you knew I wouldn’t last a day.” “I have no idea what you’re talking about,” says Death. “I lost, fine,” says Dean, “at least have the balls to admit it was rigged from the jump.” When Death looks him in the eye, Dean is scared. “Most people speak to me with more respect,” says the Horseman. “I didn’t mean–” says Dean hastily. “We’re done here,” says Death, “it’s been lovely.” Dean gazes down, expecting to be smited. “Now,” says Death, “I’m going to go to hell to get your brother’s soul.” Dean gazes up at him, astounded. “Why would you do that for me?” he asks, stunned. “I wouldn’t do it for you,” says Death, “you and your brother keep coming back, you’re an affront to the balance of the universe, and you cause disruption on a global scale.” “I apologize for that,” says Dean, mouth trembling wildly. “But you have use,” admits Death, “right now, you’re digging at something–intrepid detective–I want you to keep digging, Dean.” “So you’re just gonna be cryptic?” asks Dean querulously. “It’s about the souls,” says Death, “you’ll understand when you need to.” As Death is about to slip his ring back on, Dean asks, “Wait–with Sam–is this wall thing really gonna work?” “Call it 75 percent,” says Death, sliding the ring on his finger.
Dean is alone, rushing to Bobby and the panic room. “OPEN THE DOOR, NOW!” yells Dean. “What happened?” asks Bobby. They race in to find Sam ordering Death, “GET AWAY FROM ME!” Death brings in what looks like an old-fashioned doctor’s bag. “DON’T! DON’T!!” yells Sam. When the doctor opens the bag, a bright white light shoots out of it. Sam tries to back away, but the shackles prevent it. “Now Sam, we’re going to put up a barrier inside your mind,” explains Death,” as Sam pleads, “Don’t touch me!” “It might feel a little. . .itchy,” continues Death, as Sam glances over at Dean and Bobby in horror, “don’t scratch the wall, because trust me, you’re not gonna like what happens.” “PLEASE, DEAN, DON’T DO THIS,” begs Sam, breathing heavily, and they all watch as Death lifts the bright light from the bag, and holds it over Sam. “No, you don’t know, you don’t know what’ll happen to me!” cries Sam. “Please, please! No, no!” Death places the light somewhere on Sam we can’t see. Dean seems to crumple in on himself as Sam begin to scream, in agony, tipping his head back so far, we can see every one of his top teeth.
Sam’s soul is restored, but what has he lost?
Editor’s stream of consciousness: So, knowing the truth about THE NATURAL ORDER OF THINGS, Dean returns to Tessa and realizes the 12-year-old must die. He kills her and agrees with her that the natural order is stupid, but realizes himself it’s something they must abide by.
It’s a truly horrific scene to watch Sam about to murder Bobby so callously, but to Sam, it’s his way out–kill a man who has been like a father to him and he’ll avoid having that pesky soul thrust back inside him (another rape metaphor, and there have been so many)! Luckily (or was it Destiny?), Dean shows up in the nick of time, saving Bobby and punching out Sam.
When Dean asks Bobby, “What am I supposed to do here?”, I’m reminded of his sobbing, “What am I supposed to do?” when Sam was dead and he was battling with himself about going to the crossroads to make the demon deal.
Death returns to tell Dean that, apparently, giving him a Day as Death was really just a test, and since Dean understands that wrecking the natural order is not quite such fun when you have to mop up the mess, Death is proud of him. I found this fascinating: This is hard for you, Dean, if you throw away your life because you’ve come to assume it will bounce right back into your lap. Is that what Dean has been doing? “You and your brother keep coming back, you’re an affront to the balance of the universe, and you cause disruption on a global scale.” I found this funny. In most cases, the brothers don’t ASK to be brought back; they come back via angels or other supernatural creatures or the coin in “Wishful Thinking” that brought Sam back. Only when Dean made a deal with a demon was one of the brothers responsible for a Winchester resurrection. Or am I wrong about that?
Notice how both the doctor and Death told Dean the chances of his death experiment and Sam’s firewall working were both 75%. Interesting, huh?
What does Death mean, it’s all about the souls? Whose? Sam’s? Dean’s? Ours?
I found the final scene VERY upsetting. Poor Sam, tethered to the cot, Death beside him, taking that glowing orb from his doctor’s bag, warning him not to scratch the “itchy wall” he’s erecting in his head. It made my head itchy, drat it all! I felt terrible for Sam, angry at Dean, wondering what Sam we will find after the lengthy hiatus and what will happen to him if he can’t help scratching that itchy wall his brother insisted Death thrust into his head against his will (more rape metaphor, yes).
Questions for this ep, no quiz, don’t worry, but I will expect your soul left at the end!
Do you believe Dean has Sam’s best interests at heart? Or is Sam right, Dean wants “the other guy” back? Or is this not Dean Winchester at all????
What did you think of Death’s “life lesson” for Dean? Was it all rigged, as Dean accused? Why do you think Death granted his wish, even though he took off the ring before the 24 hours was up?
There really has been a very strong rape theme this season. “Michael and Luci are hate-banging it as we speak.” Was it me, or did that last scene, with Sam restrained and screaming “NO NO NO,” Death forced the wall into his mind (and he wasn’t anywhere near his head) seem very much like a rape?
Loved all the guest stars in this ep. Cheers for Englund, Benton, McKeon, Richings, Roche, and even the secondary guest stars, like the nurse, the little girl, Scott, they really made the ep something special. Englund as the doctor was especially great and amusing, and his weird, creepy assistant perfection. Who made the episode pop for you? Did you like this episode? You know, I’m still not sure how I feel. I’m scared for Sam. I’m sure we’ll have him back at the end of January, jovial, fun, his sweet old self. But he has a time bomb in his head, put there by his own brother. Dean is always sure he can control everything, but this episode proved he can’t, not always. Failure to do so here means an agonizing death for Sam. How fair, how right, is that? There were moments of great humor, of course, dark though they were, mostly thanks to Richings and Dean, and Dean and Tessa had some great humorous moments, too. Only SUPERNATURAL can make an episode in which a major character is named Death so funny! Oh, and does anyone else think Death has a special soft spot for our Dean? Is that a good thing? Oh–and will Bobby ever see Sam the same way again?
I always get bits of dialogues i could not understand from your rambles. Thank you.
Sam won the game and was pretty intelligent to have taken Bobby away from his Home and his advantage.I think dean had the best interest of Sam’s Soul at his mind. I don’t think it is about rigging, It was like the test set up by Spock in the latest startrek not really to succeed but for Dean to see( another test or journey which Sam missed.Sorry for this whine but i want to see even Sam going on a journey exclusively for him because even Sam too was resurrected and is one of the two characters whose actions are going to affect hugely) their resurrections had consequences and may be some things were completely altered…May be this alround knowledge will help them somehow….or Character growth…Jan 28 come quickly..Like you Sam’s rationale for what he was doing really made me feel his desperation,That he does not like his existance being threatened and solidified my belief that soulless Sam’s motivation was survival.
Dean cannot control everything and neither can Sam.It is just i think doing what they think is right with the information, experience they have, giving it their 100% at that moment and hoping that it plays out how they thought it will, like Sam took the decision of drinking demon blood even though having doubts about its effects.I just hope that some how this decision has the right outcome for both Sam’s and Dean’s sake…
Thank you thank you so much for sitting down and writing this for us fans. For me being not a native english speaker its sometimes hard to understand the whole conversation. And I was pleased to see your review your “rambles” so soon after the episode aired!!!!!
Oh my, the rape metaphores… Now that you mentioned it Robin, the last scene did seem like rape. Poor Sam. Anyway, I didn’t like this episode, but the last 7 minutes were good and I loved the cat and mouse game between Sam and Bobby. The rest of this episode didn’t work for me, I don’t know why.
But I LOVED the cliffhanger. Really, I remember yelling ‘Bastards!’ at my screen when the credits came up. 🙂
I felt bad for Sam, because man, he was terrified. But giving him his soul back was the only right thing to do.
I can’t believe we’re gonna have to wait MORE THAN A MONTH for the next episode. This sucks ass.
And Robin, thanks. I’m Dutch, so sometimes I don’t fully understand parts of conversations. So thank you for your rambles 🙂
Robin,
I totally agree with you, here. I made a similar observation about the rape metaphor over in the preview thread; the rape theme is very disturbing to me as a viewer and I too felt bad for Sam both during the conversation with Bobby and at the end, when Death shoved (quite literally) the soul back in. The theme of bodily invasion (Castiel’s soul-searching, Vamp bites, Alpha Vamp in the cage, etc.) makes me wonder at the direction of the show. I also think it very very important that Death said “keep digging” – Digging seems to be a key word here. Souls are dug out, as our corpses. And rape is the most horrible form of body digging – it’s an act of extraction and invasion. A rapist invades the body and can rip out parts of the soul.
I think Dean, and I’m more of a Dean girl, is being very selfish here. I’m reticent about the character growth in him, as we keep coming back to his inability to really learn his lessons. He knew that avoiding one death requires another death – he experienced that himself in “Faith,” and I’m wondering if Sera, et al, either forgot that lesson or just wanted to demonstrate that Dean just doesn’t learn? I’m not sure.
I was too reminded of Dean’s line from Sam’s death scene, “What am I supposed to do?” Also, Sam said this during Dean’s death scene. This line is a recurrent line in the Supernatural universe, which makes sense giving the immaturity of its transcendental beings. Divine direction is as narcissistic and human motivation, at least in this universe.
I find myself moving away from loving this episode to being more disturbed by it, which is good as well. I had a professor tell me one time that it’s often better to feel disturbed by a story than be pleased with one. The discomfort reveals the meaning.
So I think I’m more falling into the category of viewer who loves how the episode has affected me.
I don’t get the perceived selfishness of Dean here. In which way is he selfish? For wanting to rescue the part of Sam that is his soul, to save this part of Sam, his essence from eternal suffering? How can any of that be considered selfish? Soulless Sam is consciousless Sam, is amoral Sam. Whatever else it is, it is not all of Sam. So why should this, the amoral side of Sam be the only one allowed to make the decision? Doesn’t Sam’s soul get any say in the matter. For all we know this part of Sam, the part that holds his emotions, his conscience, his moral core, is suffering in Hell and will continue to do so, if nobody comes to the rescue. That part of Sam might desperately want to be reunited with his body.
How is taking this into consideration selfish but rejecting part of oneself not selfish?
Let’s consider the consequences of not taking any action – letting amoral Sam continue to enjoy a conscience free and amoral existence for another 40 years, let him continue happily kill innocents in the line of duty, use people to his advantage or kill them if they stand in the way of his needs or wants. Which is what amoral Sam has being doing so far and will continue to do. Meanwhile his soul gets tortured in hell. So what happens when Sam’s body dies? The amoral part is gone for good, having raked up an impressive body count of innocent bystanders and Sam’s tortured soul will continue to get tortured for all eternity, eventually turning into a demon. Because this is, according to canon what happens to souls in hell, given enough time. So we end up with amoral Sam and demon Sam if Dean does comply with Soulless Sam’s wishes.
Even if Dean will at some point be forced to kill Soulless Sam, either in self defence or purely to stop him from killing more innocents, or killing Bobby (just in case he might entertain thoughts of saving his soul again). Naturally that would have Dean put a gun to his head seconds afterwards.
It would still leave us with demon Sam though, once his soul goes the way all souls tortured in hell go.
Now consider the consequences of taking action and saving Sam’s soul. First of all this will put an immediate stop to his soul being tortured in hell. The end of pain and suffering of Sam’s soul.
Then there’s a good chance that body and soul can be reunited, the wall stays in place and Sam is whole again, body and soul.
Should this not work, should the wall crumble and Sam, whole, body and mind be reduced to a shivering wreck Dean could still kill him, to put an end to his suffering. Only this time, Sam’s soul would ascend to heaven and be at peace.
In which way is Dean working for the best possible outcome, considering the scenario, selfish?
What are the alternatives? How are they better? I am at a loss to understand how Dean’s actions can be viewed as anything other than the best possible course here. It’s got nothing to do with selfishness but everything to do with trying to save all of Sam, body and soul, not only in the short term but also in the long term.
But maybe I am missing something here. Could those of you arguing that Dean is acting selfish here outline the course of action to take to save all of Sam, body and soul in the long and short term? Because I don’t see any other way out – Leaving the decision to the amoral part of Sam is not going to save all of Sam. What would that course of action (or inaction – Dean not saving Sam’s soul) accomplish other than turning Sam’s soul into a demon eventually?
Of course it was selfish . Your saying if the wall breaks Sam is finished so Dean can just put him down anyway. Your argument that Sams soul should have a say is flimsy and if we go down that route then surely so does Sams body and mind . I know why Dean did it and he made a decision but it was selfish . Sam will have to live with that time bomb not Dean , Sam will suffer the consquences if it goes pear shaped not Dean. Dean wanted Sams soul back which is understandable based on the hope it will work .But it was a decision based on what Dean wanted you cant deny that surely?.
And just for the record I know it was a decision based on love .
@Ellie
So what would you recommend as the course of action to take?
What would be unselfish on Dean’s part?
Those are the options with Sam’s soul reunited with the body:
positive outcome:
Sam’s soul will no longer be tortured.
Sam’s body will no longer be an amoral killing machine
Sam’s body and soul will be whole again and will be alright (the wall holds).
negative outcome:
Sam’s body and soul will suffer the consequences if the wall goes pear shaped (the wall does not hold).
positive outcome:
Sam dies and goes to heaven.
Those are the options with Sam’s soul not being saved:
negative outcome:
Soulless Sam continues his amoral and conscience free existence, killing innocent bystanders in the line of duty.
Sam’s soul continues to be tortured in hell for all eternity.
Sam’s body eventually dies. Sam’s soul stays in hell.
What are the positive outcomes of this scenario in your opinion, Ellie? What would be the unselfish route for Dean to take in your opinion?
If making Sam having to live with the ticking timebomb (but also with a very real chance of it being perfectly alright) is the bad and selfish thing to do, what is the good and unselfish thing to do?
That’s what I don’t get. What would you have Dean do?
pandora,
Perhaps selfish is a strong term, but for me, Dean’s actions lack forethought, which makes me think that it is more about his “reactions” informing his actions. First of all, there was no definitive proof of the location of Sam’s soul except for the rumors of where it was. And no, Castiel may very well not know – my reason: If angels knew where the soul was, then Balthazar would’ve known and would not have been surprised, which he was in his conversation with Sam. And since Balty has made himself a businessman in terms of souls, he’d be more likely to know where they are. Castiel only knew that the soul was gone; he just assumes that it’s in the cage. And if this story is as well-crafted as I think (and hope) it is, then it will seek to capitalize on teh audience’s assumptions by upending those assumptions.
Second, even though many of us may have a problem with Soulless!Sam (which I do), he is still someone, a person. He had a right to contribute to the conversation about his soul, a right that Dean consistently and aggressively took away from him. Notice that when Sam said “It’s my life and my soul,” Dean did not even acknowledge the comment. Dean’s refusal to take the possible aftermath into account leads us back to the deal framework. Satisfy a desire today at the sacrifice of tomorrow – a theme that Death calls Dean on in the final conversation. I have a fear that this is a “mess” that Dean will have to clean up, continuing the idea that Death introduced in that conversation as well.
Finally, what would I have Dean do? I’d have him consider the consequences in more than a perfunctory way. Be the investigator that he is. Again, I’m more and more convinced that much of this story is based on assumptions that both the characters and audience members are making without hard evidence.
I agree with Ellie_444 here. I know that Dean made his decision out of love, but again, the love these brothers have for each other often comes at the sacrifice of others and perhaps now we are reaching the point where it could cost them each other. Both Bobby and Dean stood by and watched one Sam die. Perhaps for the better of the world, but still they stood in the witness box and watched an executioner do his work. There is no way out of that.
@bookdal
Ok, but this goes both ways – I agree that everyone is relying a bit too much on hearsay – everyone speculates that Sam’s soul is in the cage and that it is irreparably damaged. Nobody knows for sure.
The thing is, Dean is the only one who has thought about the option of Sam being alright. Of Sam’s soul being alright, or being able to heal, or deal. He argues this with Castiel.
So I’d say he has thought about the issue. Plus he has first hand knowledge of what it means to be tortured in hell and how to survive it/cope. He is the only one who has actually seen and experienced what everyone else is only speculating about. So I’d say his word carries some weight.
So you’d have Dean consider it some more. Ok. Once he has considered it some more (meanwhile Sam’s soul suffers and amoral Sam keeps on adding to his body count), what decision would you have him come to?
Re Bobby and Dean standing by to watch one Sam die – they respected his wishes there. He asked them to do just that. Are you saying respecting Sam’s wishes in that instance is wrong but respecting amoral Sam’s wishes now is right? I must admit I am confused.
And if Bobby and Dean standing by to watch one Sam die, to stand in the witness box to watch an executioner do his work is wrong, surely the same goes for Same watching one Dean die and stand in the witness bos watching one executioner (or a number of hell hounds) do his work is no different?
Again, if Dean’s action is selfish, what would the unselfish thing have been to do? I am still curious, but nobody seems to be able to answer that.
What would you have Dean do, once he had considered all options and had weighed all courses of action? What would you have Dean, what would you recommend? the
You’re right about many points, pandora. Honestly, I don’t think there is a totally selfless decision here. And being selfish is not a bad thing, as long as one is admitting to the selfishness. I think the problem I have here is that Dean is assuming that saving Sam equals rescuing his soul. Okay, so let’s go with that, but what if rescuing the soul means killing Sam? A real possibility that Castiel, Meg, Death, and Balthazar point to. Having his soul back could literally kill Sam, so either way, he’s dead. But what if dismissing this Sam, Dean had actually taken a look at what was in front of him, had taken the time to really convince Sam of the “logic” of having a soul? He didn’t – in fact, if I were Sam I’d not want that thing in me either. Suffering? Memories of hell? Lucy and Michael hate banging me? No, thank you.
As for the Bobby/Dean vs. Sam/Dean death scene, that’s a fallacy of single cause. They are completely different scenarios. Sam did not bring Lilith to the house, nor did he simply stand by during Dean’s death. He was forced against the wall as his brother died. He was forced to watch. Neither Dean nor Bobby were forced to watch; they chose to watch and do nothing.
To answer your question – I don’t know what I’d have Dean do. I just know that I would not want him to do it this way. This way seems messy, but then again, maybe it’s supposed to be this way. More drama for the future.
sorry about the typos in my previous post – just another add-on to my reply to bookdal:
ok, let’s go with the scenario of Dean agreeing to consider the matter of one part of Sam, the amoral part having a right to decide in the matter, what do you think would have happened?
Dean is taking his time out, he backs off and considers the issue some more. What do you think amoral Sam’s reaction would have been to that? What would the logical, the rational, the amoral decision for self-preservation have been? Amoral Sam does not know which decision will come to. So what is the rational, the logical thing to do? You prepare plan B, you make plans just in case the decision is not in your favour. In other words, you go to Balthasar to aks for a spell to make your vessel soul-proof and logic and rational thought lead you to kill Bobby. Self-preservation is what drives amoral Sam at all costs. He is not going to afford anyone the time out to consider the issue. He is not going to tak the risk. The amoral, the logic, the rational conclusion to come to from Sam’s POV is that a) he needs to come up with a plan to make his body uninhabitable for souls – kill Bobby and b) Dean is a potential threat – eliminate.
IMO considering the issue some more would only have increased the danger for both Bobby and Dean.
@bookdal
Dean is not assuming that saving Sam is rescuing Sam’s soul. He knows that this is the case. He has first hand experience of this. His body was in a grave, his soul was being tortured in hell. His essence, his soul was in hell, his bodily vessel was in its grave. Only when Castiel grippped him tight and raised him from perdition did his suffering end. So, yes, he knows which part of you forms your essence and the value of your soul.
In fact, wasn’t Death’s in this episode stressing the issue: how valuable a human soul is, how important and how indestructable?
I guess what I don’t understand is the emphasis put on the amoral animalistic body of Sam versus the importance/unimportance of the human soul. The part that makes you human (remember Verity, the Goddess stating that Sam was not human, remember the alpha vamp saying that soullessSam was his perfect little animal). Dean seems to be the only one who cares about Sam’s soul. He’s the one desperately trying to rescue the part of Sam which makes him human.
I still don’t see why that makes it a selfish thing – it is no more than the Winchester family mission statement. You know, saving people, hunting things… with emphasis on the saving part.
That he can relate to the agony of Sam’s essence suffering torture in hell and is desperate to make it stop does not make him selfish in my book.
He was willing to do the same for Adam – he was forced to choose, but that does not take one whit away from his willingness to do the same for Adam. Tell me, would you consider his willingness to save Adam’s soul selfish as well?
@bookdal
One final thought. I am still trying to come to grips with this whole selfishness business. So you are saying there is no unselfish way of resolving the situation. That you don’t know of any good way to fix it. But that no matter what Dean does, it is selfish? That there is no way he can have unselfishly only Sam’s best interest at heart, that he is selfish in wanting Sam’s pain to stop?
Damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Poor Dean. No matter what he does, he’s doing it for selfish reasons.
This is an interesting discussion going on here. So many express the thoughts that do disturb me regarding this decision to force Sam’s soul upon him. As someone said being disturbed isn’t always a bad thing because it does force one to consider what it is that is disturbing and perhaps in that consideration a new understanding is reached or a new direction of thoughts. It may or may not all be bad (or good).
bookdal wrote: “I’m more and more convinced that much of this story is based on assumptions that both the characters and audience members are making without hard evidence.”
I dearly hope so. Many things have been quickly pulled out from under us this season notably Crowley’s quick demise as well as Samuel’s at first good guy persona to then not so sure, to oh, but he can save Dean from vampire blood to now being a baddie because he chose his daughter over his grandsons, so many ups and downs with that character I’m not sure how I view him, and that isn’t all bad.
I’m hopeful that the setups on a number of issues/threads this season are merely that, setups that will quickly switch to something else.
Notably, I don’t like that Sam’s soul was in hell. Number 1, because it never should have been there after what we witnessed in Swan Song. If it is, I’ll wonder for a long time why his sacrifice into the pit wasn’t rewarded when Castiel, Dean and Bobby were rewarded in that all were allowed to live. I’ll also be disappointed that Sera took the convenient/easy course with this particular story and that now it’ll be about how long before the wall breaks (because we know it will). I want the brothers back together and working together, having Sam being on the verge of cracking apart makes him weak and relegates Dean to the role of protector and shielder of Sam; hardly equal footing there.
Also, I don’t want to see a season of Sam apologizing for all that he did without a soul (not that he doesn’t owe Dean a big fat apology for letting him be turned into a vampire since he supposedly now has a soul and will actually care about Dean again). Sam apologized his way through Season 5 and I don’t need another season (well, half now) of it. Again, it’s near character assasination of Sam to have be evil for half a season, sure he had no soul, thus no moral compass and can’t really be held accountable for his actions but why did we have to basically repeat what we saw in Season 4?
Thirdly, like several here I don’t like how this is going with Dean, yes, Dean was selfish in making the deal with Death in the first place to retrieve Sam’s soul but I think he was selfish in a two-fold manner. First off, he wants his brother back, who can blame him (so do I), secondly, he does know the trauma of hell thus to save Sam from that eternity is also Dean being selfish on Sam’s behalf (which is a protective and loving gesture as has been said here).
Soulless Sam can have no understanding of hell for while he feels physical pain he cannot comprehend it beyond the immediate, thus he can’t imagine it never ending, nor can he imagine the psychological torment as he has no feelings.
While I have no love for Sam without a soul (beyond maybe an episode or two but that’s been stretched beyond my personal love for it) I similarly felt terrible for him to have it stuffed back in. It was disturbing and I do believe it was meant to be.
My issues go far beyond this particular episode but rather to how I interpret the first half of the season which is that it’s a mess. I loved Exile on Main Street for it opened up several threads and did what I think a season opener should do, whet the appetite. Since then as more and more threads have been opened up I have felt that I am on a roller coaster ride that I am becoming convinced is out of control and has no clear direction.
I dearly hope that I am wrong but when Sera said that this season would be smaller, more intimate and more into the relationship of the brothers, this is not what I expected. Sadly, I had expectations which can be dangerous for they can lead to disappoinment which is what I clearly am experiencing.
I don’t like Sam in this season beyond what was seen in perhaps the first four episodes. I didn’t mind that he was an ambiguous character in Exile or that he wanted Dean back with him because ‘it was better that way’.
I liked the mystery of Sam and looked forward to the reveal.
The next two were fine because it was a couple of decent hunts and the two brothers were discussing aspects of Dean’s life with Lisa and what it meant as well as Sam showing his own hunting style after a year separate from Dean. As for Weekend at Bobby’s I just adore that episode and since it was a showcase for Bobby and Rufus and Sheriff Mills along with Crowley the brotherly issues were far and away on the back burner.
However, past that all pretense was dropped and boom, there was soulless Sam with no feelings and no care to pretend. I disliked him in episode 5 and while I’ve laughed at a few of his snarks, I don’t like him anymore which leads me to my issue above, don’t want to see the great Sam apology tour for the rest of the season but that is what has been setup. Dean was nearly killed, he lost Lisa and Ben abruptly and without real closure because of Sam’s actions and now Bobby was nearly killed, and also, Sam apparently has killed innocents in his last year without a compass. Sheesh, Sam has to apologize and it’s Sympathy For the Devil and much of Season 5 all over again.
As for Dean’s story, I do love that the brothers protect each other but I am also tired of the constant reversals going on here. In one episode Dean tells Samuel that deals are bad and to learn from their mistakes and here we are an episode later and he’s working a deal with Death. Sheesh. Yep, Dean is all fix the problem and damn the consequences when things like Faith and Cross Road Blues as well as what he said in No Rest For the Wicked about going down the same road and making the same mistakes are all canon, why upend them and toss them out the window?
Granted it was Death himself who decided to put Sam’s soul back after Dean lost the bet so hopefully there is more to it than that, and I don’t think Death would have listened had Dean said, stop, don’t do it. Perhaps it is Death pulling the strings here (hope so for Julian Ritchings is fabulous in the role.)
What should Dean have done, allow Sam’s soul an eternity of suffering or make a deal and hope that drywall and some spackle hold…well, Sera should have thought this all through a bit better. Maybe she has and this is all mirrors and shattered illusions, I hope so but hope is fading fast.
Pandora – It’s not that there is no good way out of it. I just think that Dean’s heroism is also, in large part, spurred by his emotional survival, not his physical survival. And survival is selfish, exemplified by Sam’s deal with Balthazar but also Dean’s deal with Death. It’s not good or bad; it just is. But also, as Dean has seen again and again (I’m not going to say learn because it seems he doesn’t) every action has a consequence. For someone to escape death, one must be sacrificed in that person’s place. And to me, that’s what happened. One Sam died in order for another Sam to live. I have no problem with that; I just want the exchange acknowledged as a choice rather than a necessity.
A side note: I think that the Winchester business has always been selfish. It was born from a mission of revenge, with the side benefit of helping others. And I like that about this show. I like that the moral boundaries are not cut and dry and that these characters are flawed.
I think that the human soul, so far, has been represented as valuable. The presence of Soulless Sam emphasizes a life without a soul and it’s not welcoming. I don’t like him, nor did I want him to stick around. I am far from apologizing for this incarnation of Sam. However, I also think that, at the end of the day, Dean simply wanted his brother back. He may have known what hell was like; he may have wanted to stop that suffering; but he also just simply wanted his brother back and to not recognize or acknowledge that is what makes this story intriguing and disturbing. And I like that.
Additionally, I don’t think FakeSam was wrong about his observations re: Dean’s willingness to kill in order to get “Sammy” back; Dean wants what Dean wants, but his character has always been about the weighing of immediate gratification against the eventual ramifications, i.e. his deal with the demon, the impetus to say yes to Michael, his libido and his appetite. Dean is a character study in afterthought, and that’s what makes him great.
I love Dean, so please know that I’m not at all trying to cast him in a villainous light. That’s far from what I mean. I feel more empathy for Dean’s character than any other character, even Sam. Yet I still think that Dean’s choices, especially this latest choice, was another opportunity to showcase what happens when he goes full throttle into a line of action without thinking of what happens afterward.
And you’re right, he seemed to be the only one concerned about getting Sam’s soul back, but also, everyone else seemed more fearful of what getting the soul back entailed. We’ll find out, of course, when the wall comes down, which it will.
@elle2
I agree with many of your points.
but first of all – it wasn’t a deal Dean made with Death it was a bet.
Interesting that Death decided to restore Sam’s soul. Perhaps he was trying to restore the natural order. Body and soul being divorced being an unnatural state of being and all that 😉
As for Sam, restored and whole apologizing for the evil things his animalistic part has done: I don’t want that either.
But that comes down to where you put the responsibility, of who you judge to be the essence, the one responsible for the deeds, the personality, the part of you involved.
For those arguing that soulless Sam is a person in his own right and that the soul has no say in the matter of deciding to be reunited and that Dean has no right to ride roughshot over this person’s wants and decisions. Fair enough. But decisions have consequences and if soulless Sam is a person in his own right he better own up to the atrocities he committed while without soul.
You can’t have your cake and eat it. Either Dean was wrong not to consider the rights of Soulless Sam or he wasn’t. If you consider to see Soulless Sam as a person with rights he also has responsiblities – he is responsible for is acts. Or Dean was right in saying that this entity was not his brother and thus not responsible for killing innocent bystanders, watching him get turned or trying to kill Bobby.
After all this part of his person does not go away, his body and mind are still there. If those parts are important enough to have a say they are also important enough to be responsible for the things he’s done and accept the blame. You can’t have it both ways. 😉
I do agree with you though, that Sera didn’t really think the whole matter through and that the plot holes are showing more than ever.
Don’t get me started on this whole “lesson” to be learned that you can’t upset the natural order/destiny – whatever happened to the championing of Team Free Will?
Then there’s the accusation that Dean keeps throwing his life away and keeps expecting it to bounce back. He threw his life away exactly once, when he made the deal to save Sam. The Winchesters have died and been rescued over and over again. But in no instance was that resuce ever their own doing/desire. Maybe Death (or Sera) should take that up with all the external agencies who actually did the resurrections: angels, demons, god 😉
Sam and Dean were not allowed to die and stay dead in Season 5, the angels kept bringing them back for their own ends. So why is Dean getting the blame for that now? Bit inconsistent, that 😉
On another note – I think that what this episode showed that rather than Dean being selfish and wanting hius brother back at all costs it showed that he was not willing to do it at the expense of an innocent victim (the drunk husband). Probably why I balk at the accusation of selfishness. I am still curious, why can’t Dean’s willingness to save Sam’s soul have been a selfless thing? Does the fact that he cares for him automatically make him selfish?
@bookdal
re the family business. It was most certainly a matter of revenge with the additional benefit saving people for John and Sam. But never with Dean. What has defined Dean from the get go has been his emphasis of saving people over revenge. He states that as early as “Wendigo”: that what makes it all worthwhile for him is that they save people and that this is the only good to come out of it. The side effect for him, as he explicitly states is that he gets to kill “as many evil sons of bitches as I can”. Not the other way round. And most certainly not for revenge. He argues the very point with both John and Sam in Season 1, that revenge is both pointless and unproductive. In “what is…” he sacrifices the viskion/idea of persnal happiness explicitly for the sake of saving innocent people, not for revenge. This is what defines Dean. There is a very good reason why the the family busines is “Saving people, hunting things” with emphasis on the saving people from Dean’s POV.
It was explicitly shown again in this episode. Dean may be willing to sacrifice himself for Sam, but there is no way under the sun that he will sacrifice an innocent human being for him. I.e. he looses the bet because he is not willing to sacrifice the drunk, innocent husband for the greater goal of lasting 24hours as death and getting Sam’s soul back. No revenge, just compassion and care for his fellow human beings.
Sam was willing to kill Bobby to get a lead on the Trickster in Mystery Spot, he was at the end of his thether and it was meant to show how far he was willing to go. Both John and Sam are a lot more ruthless where that is concerned. But it is not in Dean’s nature to do that. He wouldn’t sacrifice any virgins for the greater good in S3, he is willing to sacrifice himself and his happiness but he balks at sacrificing innocent bystanders.
I’m not sorry for the sociopathic killer robo/Sam. Nor am I angry at Dean for trying to retrieve Sam’s soul. What else could Dean do? It was either retrieve the soul, or kill robo/Sam as he couldn’t leave the unfeeling replicant to murder at his convenience. I’ve had no sympathy for robo/Sam since the season began. The Sam I sympathized with was the missing soul.
Also, I can’t blame the constant resurrections all on the brothers as there was only one time it was due to either of their actions. When Dean sold his soul for Sam. So I’m a little confused by Death’s accusation.
I kinda like that Death feels a little bit kindly towards Dean. It’s time someone did. But then, I’m sure he has his own reasons, whatever they turn out to be.
If I were Bobby, I’d keep a fish eye on Sam forever more and never completely trust him again, in any form. Too bad!. Don’t really like that scenario but Bobby has very good reason now. When Sam killed Bobby in Mystery Spot, he was in possession of his soul and wasn’t entirely sure that it wasn’t really Bobby.
Ijust hope I can learn to love Sammy again, as Dean and Sam together are the reason I love this show. 🙁
And regarding the friendly debate going on in this thread, I just want to say that I agree 100% with Pandora’s argument. 😉
@bookdal
re your take on Dean not considering the consequences of his actions. I think the opposite is the case – he makes mistakes and certainly has his share of bad judgement calls but I do not think that he does not consider the ramifications of his actions. On the contrary. Throughout Season 4 he keeps arguing that it is stupid and rash to rush into battle with Lilith without a plan and the means to beat her. He argues for forethought, for a strategy, while Sam wants to take her head on and rush in, not weighing the options and damn the consequences.
I would argue that his thought process here is the same. This isn’t about him wanting his brother back because… but that he has actually thought about the consequences of not doing anything about it. Nobody else seems to have thought about the longterm consequences of letting Sam’s soul getting tortured for eternity. Except Dean. Everyone else (Castiel, Crowley, Soulless Sam) just thinks about the immediate problem, the problem it may cause for Sam’s body. Not the longterm problem it *will* cause for Sam’s soul.
Dean is the one thinking the long term strategy here IMO.
His love of food (comfort food) and his uninhibited, entirely normal and healthy attitude to sex is not at all about instant gratification but about his innate ability to take joy in the simple things in life, no matter what crap life throws your way in other regards.
There are countless instances where it is explictly shown that he always puts the job above those simple pleasures. When the decision is “instant gratification” or the job he always chooses the job. Show goes to great lengths to show that. As in show, not tell. He may talk about his pleasures but when it comes down to it, when there’s a job to do that is what matters above all. Examples: as early as Hookman: college party with hot girls or digging up the preacher’s bone, it only takes him a split second and a regretful look to opt for the job. No contest. Instant gratification vs. saving people/getting the job done – no contest.
Which was pretty much the point made in the amoral Sam and the hippy chick conundrum. This wasn’t Dean being prudish in a role reversal but the good old Dean making it clear that there is a time and a place. The very opposite of instant gratification. Taking advantage when the opportunity arises (i.e. free food presents itself) is not the same as instant gratification.
I think to say that Dean wants what Dean wants is doing a great disservice to Dean. Dean, of all people, has always put his own wants and needs at the back, what always matters more is everyone else’s wants and needs. His notorious low self-esteem, his willingness to sacrifice himself for other people, his willingness to sacrifice his own happiness for other people’s happiness are diametrically opposite to “Dean wants what Dean wants”
Go back to “What is… ” and Dean’s soliquy at his father’s grave, his mission statement that when it’s other people’s happiness or his own – no contest. So much for immediate gratification vs long term consequences, so much for selflessness vs selfishness.
I think it would be more healthy for Dean to put his own wants and needs before everyone else’s for once.
Pandora, this is very well said:
“I think that what this episode showed that rather than Dean being selfish and wanting hius brother back at all costs it showed that he was not willing to do it at the expense of an innocent victim (the drunk husband). Probably why I balk at the accusation of selfishness. I am still curious, why can’t Dean’s willingness to save Sam’s soul have been a selfless thing? Does the fact that he cares for him automatically make him selfish?”
Actually, I enjoyed your entire post that included that.
As frustrated as I am currently (a little less because I have about 50 episodes to watch from the past five seasons that I’ve chosen and it is truly enjoyable to watch those episodes prior to Season 6) I do enjoy reading others thoughts, again, I’m at odds with this season and perhaps that is the intent of the writers and perhaps it is not. The thinking on it, however, as Tim The Enchanter stated on another thread does help me to stop being lazy (or stomping my foot and being mad) and rather has me examining my thoughts and feelings to things and going on from there.
🙂
@Bevie 😉
Of course none of this would have happened had Bobby not withheld the information that Sam was back from Dean for a whole year. Bobby’s impulsive need for instant gratification (let Dean be happy/oblivious/pining for his brother now vs find out how and why Sam is back and what is different) vs the long term cosequences (one year of unspeakable agony for Sam’s soul) led to this whole mess.
Had Dean known it would have taken him as long as this time round (i.e. hardly any time at all) to figure out that there was something wrong and what and to do something to rectify the situation. Which would have left Sam’s soul tortured for a few weeks/months at the most, and as Dean knows firsthand that is something one can survive/deal with without trouble 😉
So can we all agree that Bobby is to blame 😉
This is an excellent discussion!
I think the main problem stems from the show’s failure to explain what the soul is supposed to be in the SPN universe. Since RoboSam’s characterisation has been so inconsistent throughout the season, there are as many interpretations as there are viewers. This I lay entirely at the writers’ feet.
Things are so muddles that one could read Dean’s actions as the height of either selfishness or altruism – there is enough evidence to support both standpoints:
1. Scenario: RoboSam and SoulSam are two different entities and obviously exist separately. It is reasonable to suggest that it was SoulSam’s decision to jump into the cage. Thus SoulSam fully deserves to stay there. RoboSam should not have to suffer because of that. Hence any attempt to saddle him with that idiotic SoulSam is a violation and consequently reprehensible, no matter how much of a sociopath RoboSam might be. After all, we haven’t actually seen him commit murder or cause any irreparable harm.
2. Scenario: RoboSam is alive and kicking because it’s a product of SoulSam. It’s just a side effect of Sam jumping into the cage bodily that RoboSam was split away from the more significant rest. Thus RoboSam is truly an abomination and a mockery of what Sam used to be and has no right to exist (is a violation of the “natural order†if you like). We have been given enough hearsay to suppose that RoboSam is a violent sociopath that has claimed victims already. It just demonstrated it’s readiness to murder Bobby. Thus SoulSam has the priority and if violating the rights of an it is the price for his rescue, so be it –SoulSam is much more valuable and has the right to exist in his natural state – occupying RoboSam.
Since Dean assumed Scenario 2 to be true without any investigation, one could argue that he was his usual selfish self and facilitated the obliteration of RoboSam through soul-rape by Death. Especially if one accepts scenario 1 as the more likely one.
And now that I have written all of the above, it all sounds infernally stupid. I lay that at the writers’ feet too. After all, I like to think of myself as fairly intelligent even if my still watching SPN seems to contradict it.
@elle2
Thank you 🙂
I too, do enjoy debates like that because it forces you to think your argument through, to rethink and to put it down in words, to re-examine and to clarify your throught process. Which is basically why I wanted to know what would be considered unselfish here and what would have been alternative actions/paths to take in the current situation. What other options are there?
Actually I think that the writers have written themselves into a corner here and the very many plot inconsistencies are not helping at all.
Much as I love (and always advocate) many shades of grey as opposed to stark black and white I think the writers have done themselves a disservice not to make SoullessSam go all the way. I.e. depict him more black than murky nondescript grey. It is one of the reasons for the current dustup. By shying away from depicting soullessSammy as the animalistic amoral being he is they muddled the issue. It took a threat of patricide to really drive home the point that being without a soul is really not a good thing. It deprived JP from a really good acting challenge as well and did his character no favour at all. Which is a shame.
As much as I love moral ambiguity and shades of grey, this one should have been way more clear cut and daring. It is a shame that the writers shied away from that.
It did both characters a disservice, because Dean ended up whiny and handwringing and passive for too many episodes without a clear storyarc other than the save Sammy mission statement which I thought negated season 5’s accomplishment of accepting Sam as a mature grown up. And of course, it leaves Dean with all the blame for everything, and not the writers 😉
Making sociopathSam pleading for free will added insult to injury IMO. While it was instant gratification of complexity and shades of grey it sacrificed the long term impact of making Dean look selfish – a sociopathic manipulative being gets to hold the moral highground over the brother trying to do his best to salvage an impossible situation. A shame.
All of this could have been used to take a good long look at the matter of souls, what they are and their importance. Unfortunately the philosophical implication of what constitutes a soul, what makes us human was never explored or even defined. Which, again, is something Sera et.al. IMO didn’t really think through. If you tackle something as complicated as the humam soul you better know what you are about and have a plan. But I have a feeling that a lot of it here was made up as they went along. Plus it added to a lack of urgency regarding the matter of Sam’s soul. Heck, to find people arguing even now that amoral Sam should have a say when the very consequence of indulging him there would result in more innocent people getting killed (without the heavy anvil of fraticide to drive the point home) is deeply disturbing. Because, taking this line of thought to its logical conclusion, this is what would have happened. There are no shades of grey here.
I wasn’t actually all joking when I said that Bobby was to blame – IMO those should be some of the questions’s asked: if actions do have consequences, where is Bobby’s share of blame in making a desastrous decision by witholding vital information from Dean?
One of the direct consequences of this decision was the fact that after all this time Sam’s soul was badly damaged, and restoring it may cause more agony.
And in the end, Dean, having put his life on the line (how selfish!),for he could very much have stayed dead, once he had flatlined, or Death would not have taken his proposition kindly and had decided he should stay dead, once his desperate gamble to save Sam had failed, he was forced to come to a decision what to do with a homicidal Sam. Both Dean and Bobby were. There is no doubt IMO that this what the situation in the panic room was meant to convey.
The explicit reference to the end of S2, Dean asking “What am I supposed to do?” while looking at Death’s ring here vs making the sacrifice then makes this clear. Far from being selfishly wanting his brother back at all costs, Dean, for the first time in his life contemplates the fact that he may have to kill this part of Sam, kill him because he couldn’t save him.
He’s come a long way from season 2.
@Galina
not stupid at all. Great post, in fact. Except that I wouldn’t say that scenario 2 is solely hearsay without any investigation.
Fact: Soulless Sam admitted to killing innocent bystanders in the line of duty.
Fact: He stood by, and admitted to it, and let Dean get turned.
Fact: He told Dean to take the sniper shot at the skinwalker even if it meant killing an innocent victim while doing so. Explicitly.
Fact: He advocated letting 150 innocent victims get turned into skinwalkers (including children) in an “means serve the end” argument in the skinwalker episode, as long as it helped in getting his soul back.
Fact: Attempted Patricide
I do not think that Dean needed any more investigating. This is more than hearsay. Those are the facts, witnessed by Dean. Things Dean actively balked and was horrified by.
I too (see my previous post) lay that directly at the writers feet.
One thing the spectacularly failed to do is to explain the positive aspects of having a soul. What a spectacularly missed opportunity. They could have had Dean evoke the brotherly bond, to reminiscence about the joy and fun they had, the warmth, the closeness, the mutual understanding. Who better to advocate that than Dean, who is able to find joy in life’s simple pleasures, to let him be the one to explain to Sam what he is missing.
Not to mention the idiocy of the argument that amorality, having no conscience and no fear makes you a better hunter. Show, don’t tell. Dean’s inate curiosity (a very human trait) and his ability to connect on an emotional level with people has shown him to be the better and more effective hunter than either Sam and all of the Campbells combined. He was the one getting to the heart of the matter in “Family matters” asking all the right questions neither Sam nor the Campbell clan had thought to ask.
Fearlessness and recklessness do not make good hunters. That is very much putting instant gratification and impulsiveness before caution and strategy.
Oh, and while we are on the subject of fearlessness – one glaring inconsistency that is really bugging me is this: Sam states that he fears nothing in his soulless state and that this makes him such a badass hunter, a better hunter in fact than Dean, who is human and thus fears things.
Well, but now we have Soulless Sam moving heaven and earth (or committing partricide) out of fear of being resouled and in fear of his life. Survival instict you say. Okay. But fear nonetheless. An emotion. Wouldn’t that same fear/survival instinct/emotion manifest itself if Sam were to battle a whole nest of vampires on his own. Or any other supernatural foe he was battling? Either you are fearless or you are not when your survival is at stake. But having Sam claim he is fearless and have him quiver and scream in fear at the same time is a tad inconsistent 😉
I feel like I’m playing devil’s advocate here, since I absolutely love Dean. With that said, though, I’m going to continue to disagree, pandora. I think the examples you’ve cited are important, but I can rebut them by saying that Dean’s willingness to take off the ring in the car was a result of his own selfishness in not killing the girl in the first place and that the guy would be another death that he caused if he hadn’t stopped him, and more since he was about to hit a bus. I can say that his refusal to sacrifice the virgin in “Jus in Bello” was a sentimental decision that eventually got all of the people in the police station killed. I can say that “What is,” although beautifully acted and written, was simply a fantasy stand alone episode that had no real stakes other than to show Dean’s sorrow over a life not lived. I could cite Dean’s willingness to sacrifice himself (again and again) as a selfish act that neglects what others think of him in service to how he has sometimes de-valued himself.
But that’s the devil’s advocate position. My position is this: I think Dean is a compassionate character who often neglects his desires for others and the danger of that pattern of behavior is that the denial of those desires ends up appearing in the forms of decisions that are not well thought at times.
In the end, I don’t think that Dean forcing Sam to take his soul back (via Death or whoever) negates the violation of the act. The pure violence of that final scene disturbs me and will continue to disturb me, as will the fact that Dean stood by and watched as Sam begged him to stop, except this time Sam wasn’t begging for demon blood, he was begging for his life, which makes me think that this Sam had emotions, had feelings, and perhaps was not soulless after all. What a kick that would be, huh? I’m sure that is not the case, but the fact that he did exhibit emotions makes it possible. I guess I just want there to be fallout, and I expect there will be.
And again, I would point out, I don’t think selfish is a bad thing. Selfless can’t exist without selfish.
When I originally heard about the whole ‘Sam needs his soul back’ thing, it would have been my biggest fear that Sam’s soul be forced back into his body without his consent, mainly because it took all manner of choice in the matter away from him, something that he has been a victim of his entire life. He’d be a mere puppet, his fate, once again, being decided by others. Sam never really had much of a say in his destiny so I was hoping this would be the start of something new.
I also felt that Dean making the decision for him would be a step back in their relationship because it would be Dean once again making a choice FOR Sam, and when has that worked out for the best? It also fed into an idea that Dean wanted Sam as he was, innocent and untainted, rather than what he is.
However, when it transpired that Sam wouldn’t want his soul back, and wouldn’t ever want his soul back then Dean did what he had to do. It takes a lot of suspending belief (nothing new for SPN viewers!!) but Sam, despite the fact he was standing in front of Dean, was still in hell. All the time Dean spent trying to make his peace with Soulless Sam, Sammy was in agony. For every hour Dean spent eating or sleeping or talking to Lisa etc, Sammy spent 3 ½ days being tortured. Had Dean cared even a tiny bit less or if he was a little better at lying to himself, maybe he could have been content with Sam as he is (was??) now.
However, Dean is probably the only person on the face of the earth who knows what Sammy is going through, therefore he is the only who CAN make this decision. Sam can’t. Sam can remember hell but he can’t relate to it (Isn’t there some condition whereby those afflicted can’t feel physical pain? That’s the Saminator for me). Therefore, as the only person who can relate to what is happening to Sammy, if Dean DIDN’T take that choice away from Sam in this situation, Sammy would spend until the end of time suffering.
I couldn’t envisage a time or situation where Sam would, in any way, shape or form willingly take his soul back. No matter how much Dean extolled the joy etc a soul could bring, it wouldn’t make a whit of difference to him. It would be like trying to explain the merits of sight to a blind man. He simply can’t relate. Sam felt he was doing fine without a soul and he can’t miss what he doesn’t remember.
The immorality of Sam while he was soulless could be easily dealt with. It’s not a ‘Kill you or get his soul back’ type situation. There are ways and means around it. Dean would never kill Sam, even if he remained soulless forever. Worst case scenario, he’d keep him locked up in the Ranic Room (once Bobby has fixed that pesky escape route…) It’s not exactly ethical but it’s better than the alternative. I don’t think Dean would ever kill Sam because then Sam would be gone, soul AND body. Sammy’s soul would still be in the Cage but now, with the body gone, any hope of getting the soul out would die with him. After all, what would they do with a soul without a body, keep it in a cardboard box??
Was Dean selfish for this? I feel that while there are plenty of times that Dean has been selfish in relation to Sam (sorry!!), this isn’t one of them. I genuinely don’t think he has a choice in the matter. He’s not doing this for his own good; he’s doing it for Sam’s. To be honest, once Dean learned Sammy’s soul was still in hell, I’m surprised he didn’t get a shovel, dig his way into hell, wrestle Michael and Lucifer for the soul and shove it on down into Sammy with a toilet brush! That’s not selfishness, or dominance, or arrogance, that’s just Dean, the protector, and that’s something Sammy definitely needs at the moment.
As things stand at the moment, while the shell of the body is fine, the soul is being tortured. I’d say Sammy while in the Cage, as well as being physically tortured, is also being mentally tormented. I kinda think the psychic pain is already a given, to be honest. Like Jasminka said, once one method of torture becomes ineffective, they simply start on another.
Dean has nothing to lose with this. Sam has nothing to lose with this. Very worst case scenario, they don’t get the soul back, Sammy continues to be tortured and the Saminator stays as is.
Worst case scenario, they get the soul back and the memories of hell are too profound and completely overwhelm Sam. Sam would not be physically tortured but his psyche would be in bits.
Best case scenario, they get the soul back and the wall holds for a period of time. As time goes on, Sam’s relationship with Dean will start to be rebuilt. This means that, when the walls begin to crumble (and I assume they will), and more and more hellish memories start to seep through, Sam, with Dean’s strength, will gradually be growing strong enough to not let these memories completely engulf him.
The other thing that having the soul back will bring is physical time. Once they get his soul back, Sam and Dean will now have time to find a cure/therapy/whatever and be ready for when the walls do crumble. They can’t look prepare for healing when there is nothing there to heal.
In a way it might seem very risky for Dean to have the sole decision in relation to Sam’s soul, especially when the consequences could be so dire. So why is Dean willing to risk it all, (apart from the whole ‘better a vegetable than nothing’ mentality)? Even after Castiel told Dean of the probable consequences, he was determined to go ahead with it. I think (in a reversal of earlier seasons), Dean is now the one with hope.
Dean believes they deserve a happy ending, (and he’s already gotten 80% of that with Sam’s body being back and the possibility of getting his soul back) and despite insurmountable problems (an angel and two demons telling you your brother WILL come back mind-fucked does seem to be fairly definitive) he believes everything will turn out all right in the end. He HAS to believe this; otherwise he’d have given up a long time ago.
It might seem rather naive but he seems to have the whole ‘do the right thing and you will get your reward’ mentality. Both he and Sam have sacrificed so much for others, for the greater good, and have been so damn selfless at every turn, that maybe he feels they’ve earned something good. Dean believes they’re due a miracle, he believes in a happy ending, whereas Sam doesn’t.
Sam is now the pragmatic one, especially in relation to this situation. He has dared to have hope again and again and again and each time having hope has come back to bite him on the ass. He knows they’ve never been rewarded for their sacrifice before, why would they be now? Dean has hope that things will turn out right. Sam, by virtue of the fact he has no soul, has no hope. Sam believes in the 25%, Dean hopes for the 75%.
(On an aside, can someone clear up the ‘how to become a demon thing’ for me, please?) Is it only when souls get off the rack and start torturing that they start turning or is being tortured that turns them. I thought it was the former, that Dean could have turned demonic by his time spent torturing, whereas Sam, due to his particular situation wouldn’t be given an ‘out’ and therefore couldn’t turn into a demon.)
Also, how do we know Sam and Dean will go to heaven when they die again (again…) The angels seem to be a pretty prejudicial bunch and I can’t see them opening their arms to welcome a demon-blood tainted, Apocalypse starting, Lucifer housing vessel and his archangel denying brother into heaven. (Though they’d better be because those two guys are better than all the heavenly hosts of angels put together!)
I’m definitely with Elle2 when she said she doesn’t want Sam to be on the verge of a breakdown for the rest of the season because it will relegate Dean to the role of protector again, something the first 5 seasons have been about. At times it seems that as protector, Dean has spent so long walking in front of Sam, he’s completely lost sight of who his brother actually is. I need to see Sam and Dean side by side, equal partners. When one falters, the other will be strong and vice versa.
I also need Sam and Dean to have faith in each other and that’s something I think has been wavering for years, maybe longer. We saw the benefits of faith in ‘Point of No Return’ and the dire consequences of not having it in ‘When the Levee Breaks’. Think of those two situations, they are mirror images of each other. Both brothers locked in the Panic Room, both ready to walk out and do something disastrous, both put there against their will and both walked out a door that was left open for them. The only difference between the two is that when Dean walked out the door, he left with the knowledge that Sam had faith that he would do the right thing, when Sam walked out of the Panic Room, he left with nothing. The end result? For one, Apocalypse, the other, salvation.
For the relationship to be rebuilt, it has to be grounded in faith. Sam needs to have faith in Dean with this one. And Dean will need to have faith in Sam when he fully returns (fingers crossed….)
@tim the enchanter – great post – I agree with everything you say.
@bookdal
so you worry about the violation of the body/vessel but what about the violation of the soul, which is ongoing every second that the soul stays in hell? Is that ok by you, as long as the body doesn’t get violated? What would you recommend as an alternative solution? How would you stop Sam’s soul from being violated every second it stays in hell? How would you go about rejoining body and soul? What is your solution to the problem?
@bookdal
re soulless sam’s emotions: that is just one big bad clusterfuck by the writers. All season long they go to great pains in explaining that soulless Sam has no emotions and that this very fact makes him such a badass hunter. That he is fearless. Except for when he is not. And shows emotions. And fear. WTF?
But ok, let’s got with this complete volte face. Soulless, amoral Sam has emotions now. Being resouled physically hurts. But in which way is that an argument to let Sam’s soul continue to get hurt and violated and abused in hell? Is some physical pain (short term) not worth the longterm cessation of pain and despair?
Should a doctor refrain from stitching up your wound and healing you because the actual act of doing so might hurt. A lot. I don’t understand this line of reasoning.
Soulless Sam is all for advocating shooting innocent bystanders, violating suspects (remember Aaron?) to get results but that’s ok as long as the shoe’s not on the other foot?
If the process of putting the soul back in is painful, and if you don’t like that, what would be your solution?
re: Devil’s advocate, indeed. Dean’s Plan to save everyone in the police station worked. It is not his fault that the game was rigged from the get go and that Lilith had already been alerted. Everyone would have died anyway, but Dean’s plan worked and it saved everyone (and especially Sam) from sacrificing their humanity in an end justifies the means way. So no, not buying the Devil’s advocate here. This one is clear. Dean provided foresight and came up with the better plan against Sam’s instant gratification plan of sacrificing the virgin for short term gain.
@pandora-I’m not convinced that Sam’s soul was in hell. That has not been established as a fact, only an observation without hard proof nor substantial investigation. That wall not only protects Sam from the experience, but it cloaks the experience from the audience. So until such time that the proof is provided, I won’t answer your question because I can’t.
As for how I would solve the body/soul issue, I’d start by having Dean convince Sam that having a soul does not entail only suffering and loss. I’d have a Dean that didn’t project his own feelings of travail onto a blank canvas and then wonder why someone wouldn’t want something that offers pain “as the only game in town.” I’d have a Dean that used reasoning rather than emotion to convince an “emotionless” being that a soul is necessary for success, instead of simply establishing himself as the “moral compass” who knows what’s right for Sam. Again, I’m drawn back to the scene where Sam asserts that it’s his soul, his life. He was a being who had a right to establish authority over himself. He had a right to protect himself.
I may not have liked this Sam, but to just dismiss him as nothing, as not a character, undermines the year he lived and the experiences he had. Granted, he was on the verge (or passed the verge) of being a real sob, but that doesn’t diminish the fact that this Sam existed whether we like him or not.
But I think it best at this point to agree to disagree.
@brynn – I love your example of a multiple personality disorder as a result of severe trauma. Perfect! That’s pretty much what I’ve been trying to argue. One aspect of one’s personality, particularly if it is the sociopathic amoral part should not be taken for the whole simply because that part is the walking and talking part at the moment and the other parts have no means to voice their concern and state their intent.
@bookdal
I am nothing if not persistent and still cannot let this one go. Sure, the death of the nurse was the direct consequence of Dean making a wrong decision – and as a consequence the husband was in danger of killing himself and a busload of people. So Dean, wanting to put right a wrong, to correct a wrong decision and to avoid more innocent people getting hurt, to save them from the fallout of his mistake is selfish. What then would be the unselfish thing to do here? How would you unselfishly correct the situation and right a wrong?
As a direct consequence of his selfish saving of innocents Dean loses the bet and Sam is screwed. Is that unselfish now or is that also selfish? And to top it off, since he wants to save Sam, but hasn’t suceeded is he now selfish or not? Is there any way Dean can ever be altruistic and do something selfless or is Dean eternally meant to be selfish, no matter what he does?
What actions of his would you consider selfless? Is putting his life on the line (flatlining) as a means to save Adams soul selfish or selfless? And if is selfless for one brother why is it selfish for the other?
@bookdal
So you don’t believe Castiel, Crowley, Meg and Death that Sam’s soul has been subjected to unspeakable torture? No matter where that took place, hell, the cage, whereever. And that it is in such a terrible state that it is all but falling apart.
But you also don’t believe Dean who believes it is salvagable?
I guess what I don’t understand is why you are so dismissive of every aspect of Sam’s but the current aspect, the soulless animalistic aspect. Why should this part of Sam overrule every other aspect of Sam? This is not all of Sam, this is one part of Sam. Dean is speaking up for the parts of Sam that are missing in action. The partial Sam does not want to be reunited with any of his other aspects. Why should his voice be the only one heeded? Particularly if you take into consideration that this part is actively harming other people. Why the adamant insistence that the worst aspects of Sam should overrule his best aspects?
What about Tim’s argument (with which I tend to agree – extolling the positive aspects of the soul would have convinced the audience but not sociopath Sam) that none of Dean’s argments, no matter how positive would have made an impact? What then?
Afer all soulless Sam has stated is that what makes him better/superhuman/the badass fearless hunter is the absence of feeling. So to his rational line of thinking emotion can never be a positive thing.
What if Dean’s or anyone’s arguments would not have swayed Soulless Sam? What then? Would you then advocate rejoining soul and body or should the soul be forced to continue to suffer so the body can continue to exist in a moral vacuum?
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I am just curious why you are so dismissive of the pain and violation and the rights of Sam’s soul. Doesn’t it matter?
@Brynn
good point. Not only the Angels and Demons but also Death categocally state that Sam’s soul was still trapped in the cage. I was initially suspicious as well as to how Cas would know where the soul was when hitherto he hadn’t even noticed it was missing but I think we can very much take it as canon that this is where it is. After all, as Sam says: “When angels and demons agree on something I pay attention” When one side voices an opinion, ok, might be wrong. But when the enemy side says the same thing and the neutral (death) I tend to believe that there may be something to it.
Plus, what would you have Dean do? Where should he investigate? The fairy realm? Because heaven (angels) and hell (demons) and a force of nature (death) already agree on it. Which avenue of investigation is left?
@Yume
I get what you are saying – but when everyone is selfish all the time and there is no such thing as selflessness why do the concepts exist? And if being selfish goes without saying for everything you do then why the constant need to point out that Dean explicitly is selfish and in explicitly in doing this as opposed to that? If every human action is selfish by definition then why single out Dean and why the emphasis on the word selfish? Why not call it human, or nice, or good? What is it that makes Dean’s actions so much more selfish that they need attention drawn to the selfishness of the very actions? That’s what I don’t get. What distinguishes Dean’s actions that they merit the caveat “yeah, but that was selfish” more than other person’s actions. I don’t buy the argument that calling someone being selfish is neutral. It is a negative connotation and the way I read it it is meant to convey that in Dean’s case. As in “He shouldn’t have done that, it was selfish” and categorically negating any altruistic impulse he may have. Risking one’s life for someone else is not selfish, there is a very good chance that one doesn’t survive and thus cannot reap the benefits of feeling good, if that’s what’s at the basis of every action and altruism does not exist.
@pandora – We will agree to disagree, but I must interject that I’m not at all comfortable with your depiction of my argument as a dismissal of Sam’s rights or that I am simply seeking to protect or defend this current Sam. It is not; I want Sam back. I just want to acknowledge that someone had to pay for that to happen. It’s just fortunate for us that it was a disliked version of our beloved Sam. My own feelings about the episode are influenced by my reading of Rene Girard’s “Violence and the Sacred.” He argues that any scheme involving reciprocal violence requires the sacrifice of the scapegoat to stop it. To me, Soulless Sam was the sacrifice and I am uncomfortable with any analysis that doesn’t take that into account. And the desire to end the cycle is almost always a desire to preserve the self.
As for believing Meg, Castiel, or Crowley…no I don’t. They have all lied, even Castiel. And Death has only established, previous to this episode, a desire to get out from under Lucifer’s thumb. So until I am convinced, with proof, that Sam was in the cage, I will continue to question the intrepidness of the detection work.
I do think it’s the timing and a bit of poor planning on the writer’s part as to what we have now. But I am still steadfast in my argument and my feelings toward the episode, and to be honest, my reading is influenced by my reactions. I respect your perspective, pandora, I just happen to disagree.
@bookdal
so you’re arguing that the current Sam is not a part of the whole Sam and that Sam’s soul is not a part of the whole Sam but that they are both seperate versions of Sam? That we have more than one Sam and one has to replace the other as opposed to one part of Sam being joined with the other part? What makes you think that the Sam without soul part will cease to exist once he is joined with his soul again and has his emotions and conscience back. The body and the memories, in fact, everything that makes the present soulless Sam will still be there. Something gets added to it, nothing gets taken away.
I guess I don’t understand your argument that one Sam will cease to exist to be replaced by a different kind of Sam.
Do you see Sam’s body and mind as Sam and the soul as its doppelgänger, or vice versa?
Isn’t Death already out from under Lucifer’s thumb? I thought that was the whole point of Death giving Dean the ring in S5 in the first place. As soon as L is back in the cage, Death is freed from his obligations.
What, in your quest to question Dean’s detective work do you suggest he do? What would it take for Dean to do get your approval?
@bookdal
so you’re arguing that the current Sam is not a part of the whole Sam and that Sam’s soul is not a part of the whole Sam but that they are both seperate versions of Sam? That we have more than one Sam and one has to replace the other as opposed to one part of Sam being joined with the other part? What makes you think that the Sam without soul part will cease to exist once he is joined with his soul again and has his emotions and conscience back. The body and the memories, in fact, everything that makes the present soulless Sam will still be there. Something gets added to it, nothing gets taken away.
I guess I don’t understand your argument that one Sam will cease to exist to be replaced by a different kind of Sam.
Do you see Sam’s body and mind as Sam and the soul as its doppelgänger, or vice versa?
Isn’t Death already out from under Lucifer’s thumb? I thought that was the whole point of Death giving Dean the ring in S5 in the first place. As soon as L is back in the cage, Death is freed from his obligations.
What, in your quest to question Dean’s detective work do you suggest he do? What would it take for Dean to do get your approval?
@pandora – It’s not about my approval since no detective work has been done to my mind. We’ve had three episodes since we found out he was soulless? And those episodes entailed destroying an alpha compound and finding out that a gloating Crowley claimed to have Sam’s soul, fighting with fairies and being offered a deal to retrieve the soul by a deceptive leprechaun, and taking a trip to hell’s prison where Meg, Castiel, and Crowley all claim that Sam’s soul is in the cage. The timing was rushed at best and the search didn’t fully develop or it wasn’t supposed to fully develop. Either way, little research has been done to substantiate the claim about the location of Sam’s soul, except for the avowals of sources that are partially reliable, at best.
And yes, I maintain that the show has established two different Sams. That was evident in Sam’s conversation with Bobby, and it has been established by numerous comments by Dean, such as “That’s not my brother” or “I want my brother back.” Now, with the introduction of the soul, that Sam has ceased to exist. For good or bad. We can argue this to daylight, but I maintain that the show itself introduced the idea of two separate beings. And if that is the case, only one can occupy the body and Soul Sam wins. Great, color Linda happy. I was tired of sociopath in training Sam, but my happiness at Sam’s return and Dean’s choice does not stop me from wanting to acknowledge that someone pays.
And may I also point out that the occupation of a vessel was a point of free will in Season 5. Both Dean and Sam had to say yes, had to consent to the occupation, in order for it to take hold. Jimmy had to say yes to Castiel. Weird Lost character (whose SPN character name I forget) had to say yes to Lucifer. And any body that has been occupied against its will has “seemed” to involve a demonic possession. It’s a grey, foggy area that we are in, to me.
A choice was not given to Soulless Sam. And if they are two separate beings, then he should’ve consented, which makes me wonder if that lack of consent will be a chip in the wall. Because it was clear that Sam did not “want” the soul, and want is a desire not a necessity nor a part of the logical order.
But maybe Soulless Sam doesn’t get to have a choice, doesn’t get a free will because he’s not really human without his soul. He’s half human, barely human, more animal than anything else. And if the soul is the only thing that makes one human, then fine, get rid of the soulless one. It’s uncomplicated, straight, to the point. However, the fright on Sam’s face during that final scene still makes me question those assumptions. And if it’s bad writing, then it’s bad writing.
As for Death, I said that Death has only established one motive “prior” to this episode, which was my way of pointing out that I was not obliged to believe his motivations to be anything other than self-generated. But in this episode he did lie. He said if Dean lost the bet, no soul for Sam. Dean lost the bet. So why return the soul to Sam? Do I believe him now that he has an acceptable motivation with his cryptic message about souls? Why should I believe him? And what about any of this falls in the natural order? It’s too convoluted.
So I’m sorry but I’m not easily convinced that what we are seeing is the entire story, and so this leads me to question other “established facts,” such as where Sam’s soul has been. The story, to my mind, has positioned me into skepticism. If that pans out, great. If not, then I simply change my reading. But for now, I’m sticking to my observations and I will say that I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s bad plotting. I just hope it isn’t.
@bookdal
I agree with you on the bad writing/plotting part. That’s actually what I blame all the inconsistencies on.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree whether one’s own soul has to ask permission to reinhabit one’s own body. IMO that’s a bit different to an alien entity inhabiting a stranger’s body. As for the soulles Sam not having a say, I’ve asked before, does that also go for the soul? Does it have a say? What if the soul wants to be reunited with the body but the body doesn’t? That’s one big moral dilemma there. Bad plotting and bad writing.
On a final note – why does Death return the soul even though Dean has lost the bet? Maybe because a soul seperated from its living body is against the natural order? It is not a natural state of things, not a natural state of being.
I do agree with you about the rush job though and I fear it is bad plotting.
@pandora and bookdal
I completely agree with the bad plotting. It just leaves too much to interpretation. Maybe that is the writers’ way of leaving all doors open in case the fans don’t like the story so far – because now things could develop in every direction under the sun. I personally would eveb dare to call that cowardly plotting … 😛
As far as RoboSam being the victim here – during the re-souling scene I was reminded very strongly of an episode in season 3 where a demon about to be exorcised made the saddest most little-boy-lost-from-mommy face imaginable, and I instantly felt terribly sorry for it, despite all the destruction that preceded that scene.
Having RoboSam pleading for his life (complete with puppy-dog-eyes-of-doom) had the same effect. It made me feel sorry for him, even though he had just tried to murder Bobby in cold blood. I also think it was extremely manipulative. Whether it was the writers trying to milk the ambiguity for all it was worth, or the character of RoboSam deploying a heretofore successful survival technique – it was still a very underhanded way to elicit emotion from all present (or viewing) – and I hate being manipulated with a passion! 😐
@Yume
yes, I get you. But my question remains. Why the emphasis on selfishness as Dean’s prime motivation here? Why stress the fact that he was acting selfishly (I still don’t see it) and that everything else that sprung from that motiviation and action was to Sam’s benefit as well. As a byproduct so to speak, but not the original intention. Because this emphasis on Dean’s selfishness (an emphasis that is not put on anyone else’s actions and motivations) makes it look as if any other consideration was not as high on the list.
Why not say that what he did was in Sam’s utmost interest and as a side effect it also made him feel good and happy.
What about Bobby’s self interest? Is that the same, why is he not considered selfish? After all he condoned everything Dean did and backed him up. Was he first and foremost being selfish for wanting Sam to have his soul back? Do you think his primary motive was to do it (or let it happen/orchestrate it) to lessen his guilt and remorse over not giving Dean vital information a year earlier? Wouldn’t his self interest be much much higher here than Dean’s? And shouldn’t the emphasis be much stronger here?
As for previous actions of his causing Sam to suffer (his sacrifice). Sure. But so would the alternative have done. His inaction would have done the same. Sam would be dead/or rather would have stayed dead. Let’s not forget that.
If everyone is selfish all the time and all motivation is just down to a matter of degree and the possible good outfall only a side effect of selfish motivation that still leaves me with the question why, if this is entirely normal and nothing out of the ordinary, the constant emphasis on the point when it comes to Dean’s actions.
@Leslie
so basically you are saying that the end justifies the means and that the big picture is what matters, no matter how many innocents get killed on the way?
So it is Dean’s fault for forcing amoral Sam to commit murder and to commit patricide.
Tell, me if this soulless Sam has rights and emotions and feelings does he have responsibilities too?
How is Bobby going along with amoral Sam’s selfish notions of keeping Dean in the dark not squarely putting the blame not at Bobby’s feet? How is Bobby agreeing with amoral Sam Grampa’s fault?
And why is this not Bobby being very selfish, putting his own feeling better at the thought of Dean having a family life over Dean’s good interest here and not considering the pain it will cause Dean.
If Sam made Bobby do this and the consequence is that a whole year is lost, a year that effectively causes unspeakable damage to Sam’s soul and thus endangers any effort at saving it, is this not Sam’s fault then, for putting his own short term interest first and for causing the delay in reuniting him with his soul and forcing Dean into an impossible position of having to find a way to save him. In other words, aren’t Sam’s initial actions to blame for ending up in survival mode in the long run?
How is anyone any less selfish than Dean? And why do you mention selfishness only in connection to Dean’s actions and motivations and not to Sam’s or Bobby’s. Why is Dean more to blame than Bobby and Sam?
In which way would soulless Sam be the better choice? Remember, soulless Sam is a ruthless killer who will resort back to survival mode each and every time he feels threatened. He has killed innocents before and he is willing to do so again. How would Dean choosing an entity who stood by and let him get violated by a vampire be the better choice, and how would that help Sam’s soul?
Would choosing an amoral killing machine over a soul being tortured in hell really be the betther choice. IMO any choice, no matter how bad would be better than that.
Actually, Dean has not shown over and over again that he would rather die than live his life without Sam.
Had he done that the obvious choice would have been to put a bullet into his brain once Sam had died at the end of S2, thus ending Dean’s pain and ending him having to live without Sam.
What Dean couldn’t take was the thought that he had failed Sam, failed to protect him. That is why he made the deal, to recify that failure. Not that he couldn’t live without him.
Even here in the current episode it is made crystal clear that he would not rather die than live without Sam. He chose the lives of innocent bystanders over the chance to save Sam’s soul. Not the actions of someone who was unable to live without Sam and would do anything to achieve these ends.
@Leslie
so basically you are saying that the end justifies the means and that the big picture is what matters, no matter how many innocents get killed on the way?
So it is Dean’s fault for forcing amoral Sam to commit murder and to commit patricide.
Tell, me if this soulless Sam has rights and emotions and feelings does he have responsibilities too?
How is Bobby going along with amoral Sam’s selfish notions of keeping Dean in the dark not squarely putting the blame not at Bobby’s feet? How is Bobby agreeing with amoral Sam Grampa’s fault?
And why is this not Bobby being very selfish, putting his own feeling better at the thought of Dean having a family life over Dean’s good interest here and not considering the pain it will cause Dean.
If Sam made Bobby do this and the consequence is that a whole year is lost, a year that effectively causes unspeakable damage to Sam’s soul and thus endangers any effort at saving it, is this not Sam’s fault then, for putting his own short term interest first and for causing the delay in reuniting him with his soul and forcing Dean into an impossible position of having to find a way to save him. In other words, aren’t Sam’s initial actions to blame for ending up in survival mode in the long run?
How is anyone any less selfish than Dean? And why do you mention selfishness only in connection to Dean’s actions and motivations and not to Sam’s or Bobby’s. Why is Dean more to blame than Bobby and Sam?
In which way would soulless Sam be the better choice? Remember, soulless Sam is a ruthless killer who will resort back to survival mode each and every time he feels threatened. He has killed innocents before and he is willing to do so again. How would Dean choosing an entity who stood by and let him get violated by a vampire be the better choice, and how would that help Sam’s soul?
Would choosing an amoral killing machine over a soul being tortured in hell really be the betther choice. IMO any choice, no matter how bad would be better than that.
Actually, Dean has not shown over and over again that he would rather die than live his life without Sam.
Had he done that the obvious choice would have been to put a bullet into his brain once Sam had died at the end of S2, thus ending Dean’s pain and ending him having to live without Sam.
What Dean couldn’t take was the thought that he had failed Sam, failed to protect him. That is why he made the deal, to recify that failure. Not that he couldn’t live without him.
Even here in the current episode it is made crystal clear that he would not rather die than live without Sam. He chose the lives of innocent bystanders over the chance to save Sam’s soul. Not the actions of someone who was unable to live without Sam and would do anything to achieve these ends.
Just contemplating this a bit more.
On reflection I think it is Sam being selfish.
He could never accept Dean’s humanity, couldn’t accept Dean as totally human and wanted Dean to agree with him on everything. He couldn’t tolerate Dean having a mind of his own and different ideas. He couldn’t just accept Dean as being his big brother.
I think it was very selfish what Sam did.
By letting Dean get violated by a vampire and by telling him that he was a murderer of innocents he pushed Dean into survival mode and forced him to protct himself and to find a way to contain the danger that amoral Sam posed. That’s just survival instinct, and Dean cannot be blamed. 😉
And if amoral Sam ends up dead as a consequence, well, that’s not Dean’s fault because he was forced into the survival instinct and thus cannot be expected to take responsibilty for his actions. After all it is not the actual murderer or the person attempting the murder who is at fault here but the person who made them do it.
Ergo: Sam’s fault.
Phew, and here was me thinking it was just 40 minutes of entertaining nonsense before bed.
@Pandora
just very quick, since I´m at work:
I´m not criticizing Dean at all, quite the opposite, I think he did the best he could and did have Sam´s interest in mind.
All I said was that it “coincided” with his own interests, because I see all decisions that way.
I do not see that as a bad thing in itself at all, it´s just in the nature of things.
The reason why I brought this up was to say: I am agreeing with you that he did the right thing and I see a discussion on selfishness on Dean´s part as basically pointless because, as I see it, the emphasis should be on the question whether it was the best thing for Sam and not if Dean “profited” as well.
Death another Dean liker (i think).Bobby, Cas,Death for Dean and for Sam…. wait no one. Even John loved Dean more seeing by his reactions to Sam and Dean suggesting to hunt together.I don’t hate Dean for having people who love or care or admire him but so does Sam need people like that ,actually needed it in season 4 most.(seeing the story not now maybe at anytime later on.)
I liked Soulless Sam because of the way he treated Cas and Meg in Ep 10 manipulating them like they did him.Wanted either Dean or Sam to give them back what they did to them so bad.Thanks Sera& Co.
Also when some of Sam’s undesirable decisions are shown it is all Sam’s fault and when Dean’s undesirable decisions are shown it is all writer’s fault.(When they showed Sam being silent to Virgin’s sacrifice I could not accept that Sam would do it ,really wanted to see it as writer’s not understanding Sam as the same guy who did not want Dean to kill Lenore)But getting Sam’s soul back was not Dean’s selfish decision. How can wishing your brother not suffer anymore in hell be selfish? Sam at least has a chance now..It is still first half and the writers have lot of explaining to do so i will refrain from going on about soulless Sam because it depends on how Soul and body are related in SN world.
But again if this went bad it is Sam who suffers and so does Dean feeling guilty on top of everything.I really hope this does not happen. Both of them deserve a break.
When some fans say it is Dean’s selfishness to bring soul of Sam back it feels wrong to me the same way some fans stressing that Sam was responsible for Lucifer rising and completely ignoring others.For me if Only Sam was responsible for Lucifer rising then only Sam was responsible for Lucifer going to hell. Sorry if this comment is too late or veering off the topic .If any mistakes in net etiquette I will surely correct it in future.Still trying to figure out the Smileys…
@Pandora
What I´ve been trying to get at is: It´s pointless to criticize Dean for his “selfish” reasons, because all reasons ultimately are and to put emphasis there makes no sense to me.
The difference for me lies in how these selfish reasons, what makes a person feel as good as possible, affects other people:
A sadistic murderer will feel good when his victims suffer, so his selfish reasons are disastrous for other people.
On the other side of the scale: Sam, when he sacrificed himself, did this for “selfish” reasons as well: he felt that he had to and would probably never have made peace with himself if he had “chickened out”. His selfish reasons however, came at the highest possible personal cost and saved the entire world, so him feeling good (or rather as good as possible) needed the world saved with himself as a price.
So, selfish, but at the highest possible level of “ethical behaviour”.
And Dean retrieving Sam´s soul the way he did: his focus – consciously or not – was on saving Sam, but not at any cost and especially not at the cost of innocent people suffering or dying for it.
That´s a very high level of “ethical behaviour” as well, and praiseworthy in my book.
@Yume
In other words being selfish for personal gain vs being selfish for the greater good? I don’t see how that makes sense.
I think the word we should be looking for is gratifying or comforting or rewarding. The knowledge that one has done something for the greater good is comforting and rewarding. Not selfish. The very word – for the self pretty much cancels out the greater good – because it immediately implies that the regard for the self, the personal gain comes before any other consideration. That the primary motivation is for the self with an added bonus for the greater good.
And I am sorry – you are making the distinction here (I think) between being selfish for personal gain and being selfish for the greater good. But without adding that distinction, by merely putting selfish (which standing alone, in itself is a negative connotation) as the defining motivation for Dean, as has been done here (not necessary by you, but by others) without caveats or explanation that this is meant to be a positive thing as opposed to the times when being selfish is meant to be a negative thing – that smacks of double standards and a desire to diminish Dean’s good intentions and his selflessness.
In my book there is something as selflessness. Self-sacrifice is one of those, by definition. You sacrifice yourself. You do not expect any good outcome or good feeling for yourself, because you will not be around to enjoy that. You will be dead. The benefits are all on the side of the recipient, not the giver. That is selfless. There is no personal reward of any kind to be reaped here, neither in feeling nor deed. It is a totally different debate if a behaviour is ethical or unethical – if the decision for the self-sacrifice is right or wrong, if it is ethical or unethical. It could be either. But none of that has anything to do with selfishness at the heart of the decision. A selfless decision may still be morally wrong. But it still stays a selfless decision.
I think that is the matter that should be debated here – not Dean’s alleged selfishness. Because as you say in your earlier post, it has really nothing to do with it. Which has been my point all along and why I do not understand why it is so important to classify Dean’s action as selfish, and selfish as the first adjective to describe Dean’s actions.
If this selfishness is meant to be a compliment why use such an ambiguous term to describe it? If it needs extra adjectives to describe the kind of selfishness meant why not go all the way and call it highly ethical and a good and worthy deed. Why not come right out and say it was a good thing he did – why obscure it with the highly misleading term selfish?
I guess that’s my gripe here. That and the pesky fact that it only ever comes up in relation with Dean.
I do not think Sam’s sacrifice was a selfish thing. It was a sacrifice done to make amends, but there was no personal gain, no reward, nothing good for him to get as a reward. It was selfless.
This is your friendly site moderator popping in with a few reminders. While I’m absolutely loving the level of debate that is occurring here and the civility for the most part has been good, there have been a few posts that are borderline against what we prefer. I understand that we fans are pretty passionate about our points of view (and you have every right to be) but keep in mind the following guidelines when replying to other posters:
1. DO NOT put words in another commenter’s mouth. Simple statements like “Are you suggesting†or “Are you implying†work. Avoid saying things like “so you’re saying†and then base a whole argument on an assumption of what was said. It’s murky territory, but the object here is to encourage people to comment without fear of having their heads bitten off over a comment that was misconstrued or just plain disagreed with.
2. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You don’t have to agree, but words like “I respectfully disagree†go over better. It’s all about tone. Again, I want people to feel welcome to post thoughts here, long and short. Of course disagreement makes for fascinating discussion, just tone it down from bitterly angry.
Okay, that’s all, let the debate continue!
@Yume
I’m still trying to clarify my thoughts here 😉
I think why I am still puzzled by describing Dean’s action and motivation as selfish, and why I still object to it is the negative connotation I found the word to have in every dictionary and every description of the word I could find.
Yes I am a little OCD with this. But I couldn’t find any positive connotations at all. Could somebody help me out here, because this is all I could find:
selfish:
1. concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself: seeking or concentrating on one’s own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.
2. arising from concern with one’s own welfare or advantage in disregard of others
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare etc. regardles of others
2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives
Selfishness: denotes an excessive or exclusive concern with oneself; and as such it exceeds mere self interest or self concern. In that it necessarily connotes a disregard for others, it is beyond the act of placing one’s own needs or desires above the needs or desires of others (self interest).
Selfishness is the opposite of altruism (selflessness).
I guess that explains why I balk at the notion that any of this applies to Dean and his motives.
It also clarifies what I have been trying to say in my own muddled way: that selfishness by the very definition connotes a disregard for others and that selfishness and concern for others are mutually exclusive. Hence my objection that Dean being selfish was still having other people’s (Sam’s) best interest at heart.
My instinctive reaction was that to call Dean selfish was to imply that he had his own welfare and advantage at heart to the disadvantage of anyone else. That to call him selfish was to attribute a negative trait to him. And that IMO diminishes what he did and what he does do and what he stands for.
I didn’t realize, until I looked it up that the dictionary definition of the word is even more damning 😉
Yume, I hope I have been able to clarify my argument a bit more now and have been able to point out what exactly had bugged me and what I had objected to.
@Yume
We can agree to disagree on that basis 😉
We’re basically on the same page here and just arguing semantic nuances. It wasn’t so much your use of the word I was objecting to (after you clarified how you personally see it) but to what it means when it is used in its regular connotation.
Well said, Alice, thank you.
Bookdal, thank you for reminding me of Réné Girard’s work. I haven’t read him in quite a while and will have to go and look for that book (it might still be in the couple of boxes left from my moving adventure, I hope). It is, indeed, brilliant and I will have to refresh his theses a bit.
Again, thank you, Jas
Jas – I’m a big fan of Rene Girard, especially this text. I think it’s a great lens through which to study texts. Ever since I began watching SPN I’ve been reminded of Girard again and again.
Thanks-Linda
Pandora,
actually this is more a question of philosophy than semantics to me, but yes 🙂
I’m new here, and I’m not english-speaking, so I have quite some problems to put my thoughts (and this episode is very thought-provoking!) into words. But the discussion is very interesting.
My only problem with all the “have RoboSam the right to decide for himself?” issue is that we are trying to judge a situation in a fiction universe with the rules of our *real* universe. And this IMO is a perspective mistake.
In our real universe we don’t value human beings and person’s rights based on whether they have souls or not. We don’t take into any consideration the “soul” problem, because we’ve come to think of that as a question of faith, not based on any “material” evidence. So, what we call “human being” is just what has a human body, a human brain, a human DNA. Any other consideration is a philosophical issue, and is matter of discussion, so it can’t taken into consideration to establish the person’s rights, that must be valid for anyone, of any culture and any religious belief or philosophical opinion.
But it’s not so in the SPN-verse (and it wasn’t so in our universe, too, until very recent times). In the SPN-verse souls *exist*, their existence is not a matter of philosophical discussion, is a *fact*. So it has to be taken into consideration to establish the person’s rights. And in this universe a human person is made of human body (and brain, and DNA) AND soul. There’s not “but”, there’s no question at all.
So, in the SPN-verse RoboSam is NOT a human being. Period. He can be viewed as an animal, as a monster like a zombie, a vampire, a shapeshifter… but not as a human being.
Monsters and animals HAVE emotions… hell, vampires can even LOVE, we’ve seen that in “Dead Man’s Blood” and in “Bloodlust”. But that doesn’t make them “human”, and *as long as they represent a threat to human beings* they must be stopped. By killing them, if there’s no other way.
Since we accept that in this universe souls exist, monsters (REAL monsters) exist and that is justifiable to kill monsters to protect humanity (“saving people, hunting things”), we have to accept the fact that: 1) Sam without is soul is NOT Sam at all; 2) Sam without is soul is a MONSTER (or at least an animal); 3) so, if Sam behaviour is threatening for humanity, Sam has to be killed, OR “resouled”, or made unharming in some way, and he has no right to decide for himself. If that’s not the case, we should question EVERY single monster-killing on the show, from Season 1 till now, and raise the “monster’s rights” issue.
Is RoboSam a threat for humanity? This is a whole new question. It is true that until the “resouling” wasn’t presented as dangerous for his physical well-being, and even possibly deathly, RoboSam was or at least seemed willing to be resouled and rather pliant to Dean as his “jiminy cricket”. He admitted remembering something of the “old Sam” and understanding that maybe it was better that way.
BUT is a fact, admitted even by himself, that he made some “questionable actions”, that he killed people without any thought, that he would cheat and double-cross and lie and kill and let people die if it was of any vantage for his ends, and that he basically doesn’t care for anyone but himself. And very probaly he would keep doing so if he should remain without his soul.
So YES, RoboSam is a threat for humanity. Let him free to decide for himself is like to let a lion or a wolf or a bear or any dangerous animal wandering free among people of our cities. They’re not “evil”, and surely they have right to live, but you just can’t let them free (if not in an evironment that allows them to be what they are). And if they attack someone you have to stop them, by killing them or drugging them. They have no right to decide for themselves.
Could RoboSam be rationally “convinced” that having a soul is in fact a good thing? Well, I have put a lot of thought on the matter, in order to write a fanfiction dealing with the relationship between RoboSam and Dean… and I must confess that I found myself at a loss. Because me too, I found that trying to explain through material examples or rational reasoning what is it having emotions and *feeling* joy, satisfaction, love, affection (adn now I’m remembering the answer Spock sent to his mother in Star Trek IV: “I’m feeling well”, accepting his human and “emotional” half in doing so) to an “emotionless” and “unfeeling” person is really like trying to explain colours to a blind person. I highly doubt that Sam could ever understand Dean reasonings, even admitting that he was able to rationally explain something that he ever just *felt* without explaining or analyzing it (that’s his personality, it’s not a fault, nor a flaw).
And even if that was the case, Sam would undoubtedly return to the “preserving instinct mode” as soon as he would hear of the dangers of being resouled, because for a being without soul there’s no greater good than physical good. So we would immediately go back to the starting point of all the question.
My conclusion is therefore that (in the SPN-verse) Sam had no right to decide for himself, no more than a zombie or a vampire, and that Dean’s decision to “resouling” him against his will was, if not the best, the “less bad”, given the present situation and Sam’s behaviour.
Sorry, errata corrige: it’s not “Bloodlust”, it’s “Fresh Blood”
I just found this site and have thoroughly enjoyed the debate. I have watched this episode several times and still get an uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach when Sam is ‘re-souled’. I couldn’t read all the posts due to family interruptions (darnit – haha), but now that all kids are asleep I thought I’d weigh in. I was turned on to Supernatural by my husband this year. I love the show and am suffering withdrawals waiting til Jan 28th. This site is a welcome reprieve. That said – I think Dean did what needed to be done. It wasn’t pretty and if there was another way to ‘re-soul’ Sam without force, Dean would have done it. I have a question, when Dean asked Death was the wall really going to work and Death’s reply was “Call it 75%”, was he saying there’s a 75% chance that the wall would work, or a 75% chance it will stay, once in place, or a 75% chance that Sam would live? Whatever he meant, I think, as stated by several others, the wall will fall bringing with it a fair amount of angst. I am interested to know how far the writers will take this thread. Also, I loved the interaction with Dean and Death. Richings portrayal of Death is chilling and fun to watch. Love Dean’s reaction when Death invades his personal space to scold him for rolling his eyes. I think I would have taken a couple of steps back rather than just stiffen up the way Dean did. Death would scare the crap out of me. I think Death had decided to get Sam’s soul back when first asked by Dean. He just wanted to teach Dean a lesson first. Well, gotta go …..