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I woke up the morning after "Holy Terror" with images in my mind of Kevin Tran's smouldering empty eyesockets, Sam’s feet going up the stairs and Dean in a crumpled mess on the bunker floor crying one perfect tear and saying “Kevin….Kevin.” Those images have been bouncing around in my brain ever since this episode finished…

Is it January yet? Please let it be January.


Well, we knew it was going to be bad and bad it was. Like really bad. Like really, really bad!

Before I get into this, I need to say something... I liked this midseason finale a hell of a lot. I thought it was well written, emotionally powerful and for the most part, pretty well paced. It delivered on the promise of what our expectations of what a Supernatural mid-season finale should be and usually is…bloody painful! But…you knew there was a but didn't you... But...I don’t give a flying fudge about the angel war. Like not even remotely. I just don’t care. Lock them in some arena somewhere, pop the roof on and let the S.O.B.s all kill each other in a blinding white flash, because I just…don’t…care. A couple of times on the first watch through, I found myself going, shut-up whoever you are, move along and get out of the way of the characters I care about! I know some people are digging the angel war thing, but I’ve been slowly but surely falling out of love with the whole notion of random-angels-coming-down-and-doing-stuff-to-humanity-to-forward-their-irritating-agenda thing. This episode sealed their fate in my eyes. They are irredeemable. Give me demons any day; they seem to have more honour (and way more personality). I'm hoping as we move further into the back end of the season, the story becomes more about how we get the winged dicks home, rather than the warring factions.

I’m talking about the random angels here, not the angels we already have a relationship with, because they’re a bit different and everything outside of the random angel stuff was a blast...TO THE HEART! 

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Metatron, I’m interested in. Interested in seeing him get his come-uppance! Curtis Armstrong is playing him so well, because he’s despicable and I’m really hating on him! He gives me the weebies. Metatron’s an artful manipulator with a God complex – or maybe it’s a little angel complex – because standing next to Sam, he’s teeny! I bet he has vessel envy! Anyway, he’s a nasty piece of work and I can’t believe both Castiel and Gadreel fell for his crap, hook, line and sinker. I know he said he doesn’t want the dumb angels…but geesh; he’s certainly getting the gullible ones!

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I’m a little confused about his plan. I’m assuming now he has Heaven as his very own playground, he wants to take it to the next level and become the ruler of his Heaven…as a God named X. X? X!? What, has he been watching too many spy movies? These angels and their God complex. Their daddy needs to get home, pronto and put them all in their place! Metatron's going to go down in a big way and I’ll be cheering when he does, but I have to say, he was fun to watch in this episode because he was so sleazy in the way he coerced Gadreel, who must be a little dim quite frankly…or I guess, desperate.

Right so, Gadreel (not to be mistaken with Gadriel who is a totally different guy). Well, I gasped. I guess I always assumed it was Ezekiel inside Sam and though I definitely doubted his intent, I never doubted it was him. So when Metatron called Zeke out as this other angel, (he must have been spying or something right, to know that Gadreel was hiding out as Zeke) I literally gasped!

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Gadreel…the parallel angel! 

I see him as a parallel for Castiel, so desperate to right what he did wrong and restore his reputation that he’s fallen into Metatron’s trap. Just as Castiel did. Cass wanted to return Heaven to its former heavenly state, wanted to redeem himself for all the damage he caused when he was stuffed full of Leviathan and wanted to rebuild his good reputation. He wanted to make all his wrongs right and he thought Metatron was the answer. Gadreel seems to be under the same misconception. 

But I also see Gadreel as a parallel for Sam, which I think is way more interesting.

Gadreel let Satan into the Garden, though he indicated that he didn’t mean for that to happen, it wasn’t his doing, I’d really love to know more about that. Sam let Satan out of the cage and back into God’s garden, which of course, he had no idea would be the outcome of his actions. 

It’s so interesting to me that the angel that would answer Dean’s prayer and take possesion of Sam is an angel so closely tied to Lucifer, when Sam was Lucifer’s vessel. I wonder if this is in anyway going to be significant or was it just a nice tie in for the show when choosing an angel for this storyline. Did Gadreel know who Sam Winchester was and what Sam Winchester had been? Or because he was locked up for thousands of years, did he just answer Dean’s prayer thinking this was a great opportunity for him to steal a vessel and hide out.

Gadreel’s story is also a lot like Lucifer’s. Gadreel was God’s most trusted. Lucifer was God’s favourite. Gadreel betrayed God by letting evil into the garden to corrupt God’s new children. Lucifer betrayed God by not kneeling before and loving God’s new children. Gadreel was locked up for his sins. Lucifer was cast out and locked up for his sins. Gadreel and Lucifer both ended up in Sam… Gah!

Interestingly too, according to various texts I’ve been reading since this angel was revealed to us, it is written that it was either Gadreel or Azazel who introduced warfare to mankind. Azazel. Another familiar name!

It probably all means nothing…but I think it's a very nice tie in to the mythology surrounding Sam Winchester.

Maybe Gadreel’s desire for redemption, like Cass trying to fix Heaven, or Sam sacrificing himself to the pit to stop the Apocalypse, will play out somehow. Maybe, though we're all not loving the guy now for obvious reasons, he will play out differently. Like nearly everyone on this show, he’s living under the shadow of guilt and of the ramifications of past actions; will his redemption somehow play into the remainder of the season? Or is he just another dick with wings. 

I have to say, now that it’s been revealed who the angel inside Sam really is, I like it a lot. Though of course I so don’t like it…if you know what I mean! Oh Supernatural...how you fill me full of conflict!

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My assumption is that Gadreel has not been healing Sam at all, just hiding out. Or, was Sam possibly not in as bad a way as the angel formerly known as Ezekiel said. Was what Gadreel showed Dean the truth? Was that really what was going on in Sam's mind when Dean saw Sam talking to Death, or was that a manipulation in order to get Dean over the line with Gadreel's plan? Maybe Sam is okay now, or at least, not mostly dead, or maybe he’s not…which is a thought I don’t like to entertain in the slightest! I have a feeling there’s every chance Gadreel could have healed Sam with the placement of his hand right from the get go, but went with this charade to ensure his own safety and continued anonymity. Which totally blows!

Gadreel must have heard everything that was said between Sam and Dean, that’s why he was able to say to Metatron, how screwed up both the brothers are. He must have been listening in the whole time. That’s how he heard Kevin and Dean talking, because he was listening in THE WHOLE TIME! Freakin’ creeper. We probably should have twigged that Gadreel had become Sam when Sam didn’t blink at Dean’s reference to Sam having been a long time getting beer. It was Gadreel from the moment he overheard the conversation about the sigil. I had a sneaking suspicion when Dean was spilling the beans that it wasn’t Sam he was talking to. It seemed like Sam, but it made more dramatic sense that it wouldn’t be Sam. Gadreel's obviously been tapping into Sam's thoughts and feelings too, because he said pretty much exactly what I was expecting real Sam to say. It’s just so damn horrible the whole thing that I’m struggling to get my head around it. I really dislike the angels. Like with a burning heat of a thousand fiery suns.

My take on Gadreel saying, “There is no more Sam” is not that Sam no longer exists, or is dead or has been destroyed by Gadreel, it’s that Gadreel has ‘permanently’ taken possession of Sam. So as long as Gadreel is in Sam, Sam is not there…but not literally, if you know what I mean. Gadreel can keep Sam suppressed so that essentially, there is no more Sam…until Gadreel is evicted from Sam’s body.

What will happen when Dean does get Gadreel out of his brother...which I’m hoping happens in episode 9.10, because I can’t stand the thought of Sam being trapped and suppressed in there any longer! I was thinking about how Jimmy Novak said that he remembered some of being possessed by Castiel – and I just went back and read the transcript of that part of “The Rapture” and was surprised by the word ‘possessed’ because I couldn’t remember that word being used in relation to angels prior to this season. Will Sam remember anything? Or will Sam remember nothing. And if he remembers nothing…will Dean actually tell him the truth?

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And then they killed Kevin (yeah I couldn't help but say “you bastards” either!)

As much as many of us had discussed the fact that we thought Kevin was a goner, it sure as hell didn’t make it any less shocking. He’s a kid, you know? I mean, just a kid and he got his eyes burnt out and it was horrific. I’m so damn sad about it because I’d grown to like Kevin (don’t even start me on Osric). He’d become part of the Winchester’s rag-tag family and he’d really come into his own. He’d done nothing but try to live up to the role force upon him and look, look how it all turned out! A-wah!

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I kept thinking back to “What’s Up Tiger Mommy” when Crowley said to Kevin, “I know we're not mates, Kevin, but one word of advice – run. Run far and run fast. 'Cause the Winchesters – well, they have a habit of using people up and watching them die bloody.” Ack!

Of course, the writing was well and truly on the wall when Kevin said he always gets screwed for trusting Dean. Gosh. The fallout from this is going to be gut wrenching.

Had Dean told him the truth, would Kevin had his guard up and been able to protect himself? Maybe not given the power an angel has…but you know as sure as hell that’s what Dean’s going to be thinking and it's going to be one of the things gnawing on his bones.

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I think something broke in Dean when he watched Gadreel, in the guise of his brother, kill Kevin. When he fell to the floor and started to say Kevin’s name, “Kevin…Kevin…” I literally thought, oh crap, he’s finally cracked. 

Everything that has happened, everything that he's done is going to crash down upon him. He’s been running on a razor’s edge ever since, in a fit of fear and panic and through the veil of grief, he made the choice to have an angel possess his brother. We know why he did it. The thought of living without Sam is something Dean can't even entertain. I’m sure he probably knows how wrong it is to live like that, but he can’t stop himself and now, look how it’s all unfolded. He’s lost his brother; he’s lost Kevin…my heart breaks for him. His decision was flawed but he did it from a place of love and we all knew it was going to bite him on the ass, but I don't want him to going down this path of self hatred again. It's just going to be too painful to watch. 

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I found myself driving to work this morning wondering how the brothers are going to get through this one. We all know, that according to Jensen, Dean goes to a very dark place after this. I wonder what that’s going to entail. He’s going to be wracked with guilt about Sam and about Kevin. About being foolish and desperate enough to allow an angel into Sam in the first place and then about Sam being utilised as the instrument that caused Kevin’s death, someone Dean had vowed to protect. How is Sam going to come to terms with all this? If we were concerned about how he was going to react to his brother’s decision regarding the angel, how is he going to react when he finds out Kevin is dead and how he died? I'm fascinated by this story and how it's unfolding but I'm deeply traumitised by the fact that we're all having to go through this! I know the brothers will find their way back from it…because, well, that’s the show after all, but the fallout from this scenario terrifies me. Totally terrifies me.

This is Dean's worst nightmare. He didn't want to lose his brother, but his own actions have caused exactly that to happen.

I see Dean as quite capable of completely falling to pieces after this one. Maybe this time that will happened. He’s teetered on the precipice of collapse many a time; maybe this will be the final nail in that coffin. Without Sam there to keep Dean balanced, will he finally crash and burn?

Gosh this show's a cracker, isn’t it?

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The theme of this episode and of the season so far seems to be, I did what I had to do (actually, that could be the theme of the whole damn show). 

Dean did what he had to do. He did what he had to do save his brother’s life. He did what he had to do when he ejected Castiel from the bunker. He did what he had to do when he lied to everyone to ensure that his secret was not discovered before Sam was healed. 

Gadreel did what he had to do. He did what he had to do to prove his loyalty to Metatron so that he could have the opportunity to return to Heaven and redeem himself.

Castiel did what he had to do. He did what he had to do when he took another angel’s Grace. (Yay by the way, good on ya Cass!) He did what he had to do to protect himself. He did what he had to do to position himself for the coming war. 

Everyone is doing what they thought they had to do for the greater good or the good of those they love and we're all going to have to live with the ramifications of their choices! Gah!

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So now Metatron has the tablets, which I assume does have something about reversing the angel spell - that illegiable bit - which is why he must have wanted Kevin dead and the tablets back in his grubby little hands. Does that mean that Crowley knows there’s a spell too? That, as we all suspected (including Dean), he was lying when he said the angels couldn’t go home. What is his motive? Control? Power?
 
Castiel has his Grace back just when Dean needs him and his knowledge and powers the most. Hopefully that means no more torture for Cass! I wonder what Cass will think when he finds out what Dean did… 

The only person who can read the tablets is gone *sob*

Dean is lying on the floor of the bunker an emotional wreck... *sobbbbb*

And just as I feared the most, the angel possessing Sam has kidnapped Sam! *screams running from the room*

And we’re all sitting here ringing our hands for the next SIX WEEKS. Damn you, Show. Damn you!

This is a fantastic set up. I’m really excited about it all. Excited and scared out of my tiny little mind...with a side order of sick feeling. I simply can’t wait for the next episode. I’m desperate to know what happens. I was picturing in my head Dean all on his own, giving Kevin a Hunter’s burial – he deserves one. My head scene is killing me... 

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I wonder if we’ll pick up where we left off? With Dean alone in the bunker a crumpled mess (alone apart from Crowley of course). I assume the first thing Dean's going to do is pray for Cass to come - or you know, just ring him. Because he needs someone. Someone to confide in so that he can try and figure out how to get Sam back. Thank goodness the CW released a promo! I don’t think I could have stood it if we just went into to this HELLATUS (and it so is hellish this time) with nothing to give us any idea of what’s coming next. Though we really don’t know what’s coming next or how long all this badness is going to take to make rightish. That promo was full of awesome and a whole lot of worrisome stuff!

But all I want is Sammy back... Can I have that for Christmas please? I've been good *shifty eyes*

I have a lot of faith in the Winchester brothers and I have a lot of faith in their love. People always kind of laugh at me for that…it’s okay, I know you do…but I really do have faith in them. For me, they are the heart of this show. Their hearts are the heart of this show. It’s why I keep coming back, to watch them continue to fight for each other and continue to love under the most trying circumstances. I never give up on them because they never give up on each other. As much as I wonder how they will ever be okay again after something like this, I know that they will, because I see that as one of their great strengths, their ability to move forward together come what may. There is function in their dysfunction and that function is love. I don’t see that as a bad thing. Sure, they could probably turn it down a notch or ten! But hey, their world is extreme…I don’t expect them to live or love like average people. 

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So I sit here for the next six weeks, full of dread but also full of hope that eventually, things will be okay again, because these guys always fill me with hope. I can’t help it… They kind of own me, you know?

-sweetondean


Comments  

eilf
# eilf 2013-12-05 15:38
I haven't read all of your article yet because I am dying laughing at the idea of 'vessel envy' :D 8) :D

Ok, back to reading....
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-05 15:38
I haven't read all of your article yet because I am dying laughing at the idea of 'vessel envy' :D 8) :D

Ok, back to reading....
leah d
# leah d 2013-12-05 15:49
Quoting sweetondean:
" I have a lot of faith in the Winchester brothers and I have a lot of faith in their love. People always kind of laugh at me for that…it’s okay, I know you do…but I really do have faith in them. For me, they are the heart of this show. Their hearts are the heart of this show. It’s why I keep coming back, to watch them continue to fight for each other and continue to love under the most trying circumstances. I never give up on them because they never give up on each other. As much as I wonder how they will ever be okay again after something like this, I know that they will, because I see that as one of their great strengths, their ability to move forward together come what may. There is function in their dysfunction and that function is love. I don’t see that as a bad thing. Sure, they could probably turn it down a notch or ten! But hey, their world is extreme…I don’t expect them to live like average people."

I agree with this Amy. So much. They kind of own me too. I never lose faith in either of them.

Yeah, don't really feel invested in the angel wars either, why would I? I wish that the show hadn't made most angels dicks. Who could blame God for leaving the building? It would be nice to see a group of 'good' angels get involved in the fight to return and reclaim heaven. Lead by Cas, who is still trying to make amends for his mistakes.

Thanks for the wrap-up Amy. The next episode seems like a long way off. It feels like the season just got started!
leah d
# leah d 2013-12-05 15:49
Quoting sweetondean:
" I have a lot of faith in the Winchester brothers and I have a lot of faith in their love. People always kind of laugh at me for that…it’s okay, I know you do…but I really do have faith in them. For me, they are the heart of this show. Their hearts are the heart of this show. It’s why I keep coming back, to watch them continue to fight for each other and continue to love under the most trying circumstances. I never give up on them because they never give up on each other. As much as I wonder how they will ever be okay again after something like this, I know that they will, because I see that as one of their great strengths, their ability to move forward together come what may. There is function in their dysfunction and that function is love. I don’t see that as a bad thing. Sure, they could probably turn it down a notch or ten! But hey, their world is extreme…I don’t expect them to live like average people."

I agree with this Amy. So much. They kind of own me too. I never lose faith in either of them.

Yeah, don't really feel invested in the angel wars either, why would I? I wish that the show hadn't made most angels dicks. Who could blame God for leaving the building? It would be nice to see a group of 'good' angels get involved in the fight to return and reclaim heaven. Lead by Cas, who is still trying to make amends for his mistakes.

Thanks for the wrap-up Amy. The next episode seems like a long way off. It feels like the season just got started!
tw1nsm0m
# tw1nsm0m 2013-12-05 16:08
Beautiful write up and so much of this feels like you were reading my mind and channeling the words (though far more eloquently and intelligently than I ever could).

And of course, just reading this, my own feelings are flooding back at this episode and my love for the Show and these brothers, I'm yet again a sobbing mess.

I have such hopes for how this all turns out. I have huge fears, angst and worry about the rest of this season but hope all the same.

I too have faith in these boys because if I don't, how can I have faith in anything else?

Now excuse me while I go find more tissue.
tw1nsm0m
# tw1nsm0m 2013-12-05 16:08
Beautiful write up and so much of this feels like you were reading my mind and channeling the words (though far more eloquently and intelligently than I ever could).

And of course, just reading this, my own feelings are flooding back at this episode and my love for the Show and these brothers, I'm yet again a sobbing mess.

I have such hopes for how this all turns out. I have huge fears, angst and worry about the rest of this season but hope all the same.

I too have faith in these boys because if I don't, how can I have faith in anything else?

Now excuse me while I go find more tissue.
EireneS
# EireneS 2013-12-05 16:22
What a very good wrap up of this last episode.
Not since he first came on the show did Kevin look so young and sweet and clean-finally once more before he is killed! I was shocked- damn show!
I find myself hoping that Cas knows that Dean needs him and appears in time to save Kevin-and then I remember that Cas has a grace back but that does not mean he can bring back the dead-damn show!
I love that Dean can do the OPT-but not for Kevin's demise!! It's not worth Kevin's death.
I also hope that Gandreel will turn out to do a good thing and return Sam's body to Sam. He could be redeemed that way.
I agree-thank goodness that a revue of the next episode came out. 6 weeks of not knowing??Argh!
EireneS
# EireneS 2013-12-05 16:22
What a very good wrap up of this last episode.
Not since he first came on the show did Kevin look so young and sweet and clean-finally once more before he is killed! I was shocked- damn show!
I find myself hoping that Cas knows that Dean needs him and appears in time to save Kevin-and then I remember that Cas has a grace back but that does not mean he can bring back the dead-damn show!
I love that Dean can do the OPT-but not for Kevin's demise!! It's not worth Kevin's death.
I also hope that Gandreel will turn out to do a good thing and return Sam's body to Sam. He could be redeemed that way.
I agree-thank goodness that a revue of the next episode came out. 6 weeks of not knowing??Argh!
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2013-12-05 16:42
I went to bed with a very heavy heart Tuesday night also. I woke up with a very heavy heart Wednesday morning. And then I got pissed. How could they kill Kevin, why did they kill Kevin? Oh yeah, that's right. It's Supernatural and everyone dies on Supernatural at one time or another. I guess deep down I knew all along it was coming but so didn't want it to be so. The optimist in me now is hoping (after seeing the promo), that they get Gadreel out of Sam and maybe Cas could take over the healing of Sam (inside or out I don't care just heal him). Another thought or wishful thinking I guess it would be on my part is, maybe Dean can call out to Cas and have him bring Kevin back. I told you it was wishful thinking.

Like you, I know that all will end well down the road, way down the road, but it does not lighten the pain one ioda right now. If Sam and Dean ever get to have that conversation that was really between Gadreel and Dean, I don't see it going much better with the real Sam participating. In fact, I think he is going to go ballistic on Dean when he finds out Kevin is dead at his hands even if Gadreel was steering the boat at the time. Pain, nothing but pain is what they left us with for the next 6 weeks. Talk about torture, this show has it down like pros.

I also wanted to add that I think the acting on J&J is just blowing my mind this season. They have always been great and believable and made us feel the feels but this season they have just stepped it up to such a level that leaves me in awe week after week.
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2013-12-05 16:42
I went to bed with a very heavy heart Tuesday night also. I woke up with a very heavy heart Wednesday morning. And then I got pissed. How could they kill Kevin, why did they kill Kevin? Oh yeah, that's right. It's Supernatural and everyone dies on Supernatural at one time or another. I guess deep down I knew all along it was coming but so didn't want it to be so. The optimist in me now is hoping (after seeing the promo), that they get Gadreel out of Sam and maybe Cas could take over the healing of Sam (inside or out I don't care just heal him). Another thought or wishful thinking I guess it would be on my part is, maybe Dean can call out to Cas and have him bring Kevin back. I told you it was wishful thinking.

Like you, I know that all will end well down the road, way down the road, but it does not lighten the pain one ioda right now. If Sam and Dean ever get to have that conversation that was really between Gadreel and Dean, I don't see it going much better with the real Sam participating. In fact, I think he is going to go ballistic on Dean when he finds out Kevin is dead at his hands even if Gadreel was steering the boat at the time. Pain, nothing but pain is what they left us with for the next 6 weeks. Talk about torture, this show has it down like pros.

I also wanted to add that I think the acting on J&J is just blowing my mind this season. They have always been great and believable and made us feel the feels but this season they have just stepped it up to such a level that leaves me in awe week after week.
m1tchells
# m1tchells 2013-12-05 18:29
Great review as always! I enjoy reading your thoughts because it is so obvious you are a fan of the show and that you love it not only somewhat obsessively but also unconditionally . This would decribe myself as well. As time goes by, it seems that more and more fans have become show critics and that just makes me sad. So thanks again for sharing the love!!

Regarding the angel wars...I find myself feeling somewhat "eh" as well. I think it is because we have no good guys to root for...other than TFW of course. Yes, I know that experience has shown us that most angels are "dicks" but it just feels like we need to connect with a good faction. So that is my hope for next year! Also - Gadreel does / did seem to sincerely want redemption. I'm hoping he becomes one
of the good guys...

RIP Kevin... damn bastards :sad:
m1tchells
# m1tchells 2013-12-05 18:29
Great review as always! I enjoy reading your thoughts because it is so obvious you are a fan of the show and that you love it not only somewhat obsessively but also unconditionally . This would decribe myself as well. As time goes by, it seems that more and more fans have become show critics and that just makes me sad. So thanks again for sharing the love!!

Regarding the angel wars...I find myself feeling somewhat "eh" as well. I think it is because we have no good guys to root for...other than TFW of course. Yes, I know that experience has shown us that most angels are "dicks" but it just feels like we need to connect with a good faction. So that is my hope for next year! Also - Gadreel does / did seem to sincerely want redemption. I'm hoping he becomes one
of the good guys...

RIP Kevin... damn bastards :sad:
Bunyip
# Bunyip 2013-12-05 18:42
Great review! I wanted to add, when Gadreel said "I've been playing him very well" I automatically assumed that he had been faking "Sam" the whole time, not just that day. So maybe Sam has been dead since the first episode.
Bunyip
# Bunyip 2013-12-05 18:42
Great review! I wanted to add, when Gadreel said "I've been playing him very well" I automatically assumed that he had been faking "Sam" the whole time, not just that day. So maybe Sam has been dead since the first episode.
suzee51
# suzee51 2013-12-05 18:47
Thanks for the great review, sweetondean! Entertaining as always!

Anybody remember when I was complaining three episodes back about how incredibly short they are cutting Dean's hair this season? :cry:

Looking at this episode, I kept wondering if Dean is going to run away and join the Marines? I mean, if this isn't a Marine scalping job, what else could it possibly be? WTF???????

suzee51
# suzee51 2013-12-05 18:47
Thanks for the great review, sweetondean! Entertaining as always!

Anybody remember when I was complaining three episodes back about how incredibly short they are cutting Dean's hair this season? :cry:

Looking at this episode, I kept wondering if Dean is going to run away and join the Marines? I mean, if this isn't a Marine scalping job, what else could it possibly be? WTF???????

Grace232
# Grace232 2013-12-05 19:17
Thanks for a great wrap up. Love love love this show. 6 weeks - grrr!
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-12-05 19:17
Thanks for a great wrap up. Love love love this show. 6 weeks - grrr!
kerinda
# kerinda 2013-12-05 19:39
great review RIP Kevin but what dead should stay dead right...Dean! and well Dean got want was coming to him karma WHAT A BITCH! sad really but I knew from day one this is was going to happen and WOW it did happen big time and I the end of it all who really gets hurt hear... Sam that's who. The lies Dean told and the Kevin thing that is going to be a big blow even bigger then anything that they ever done to each other in the past How can you forgive someone for that? come on I do not know what going to happen but its not good and it freak me out and pissed me off at the same time.
kerinda
# kerinda 2013-12-05 19:39
great review RIP Kevin but what dead should stay dead right...Dean! and well Dean got want was coming to him karma WHAT A BITCH! sad really but I knew from day one this is was going to happen and WOW it did happen big time and I the end of it all who really gets hurt hear... Sam that's who. The lies Dean told and the Kevin thing that is going to be a big blow even bigger then anything that they ever done to each other in the past How can you forgive someone for that? come on I do not know what going to happen but its not good and it freak me out and pissed me off at the same time.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-05 19:46
Great review Sweetondean! I loved this episode too, with the agreement that well if the angels are going to kill each other why should we care? It's like 'Heaven and Hell' all over again. They are taking human vessels it is true but saving people has taken a back burner over the last season and a half or so, so again why should we care?
I would love to see that this is what the show is moving on to addressing. That the show is about saving people and fighting the supernatural. It is about real people with crazy problems, like being possessed by angels.... The Winchesters are invincible but they get lots of ordinary people killed. Is that really what they should be doing? I know it would never happen but I would kind of like to see the last season of the show being about them going back to their first season roots and saving the world one person at a time.

But in the meantime some epic worldsaving isn't bad at all! And this episode was a really good example of what the show can do!

Poor boys, that last scene with Dean broken over the events that had come to the worst possible conclusion was just heartbreaking, especially since for a few minutes he Dean thought he could/had fix(ed) it, he told Sam, he thought that Sam was as angry as Dean would have been and had reacted the way Dean would have reacted and allowed the punishment to be swift, and brutal, and over.
But Sam doesn't know, maybe Sam hasn't been there to know and now Kevin is dead and Sam is no longer anywhere (maybe) or possibly is in there and aware and dealing with the comet that Castiel spoke about. It was a horrifying and bitter moment for him and Jensen played it amazingly.

I believe that Sam has only been gone since Gadreel (thanks for the name confirmation) found out about the spell but getting him back could be a tough process - and looks painful too - and has all sorts of repercussions if the spoiler is anything to go by. The repercussions of all this could go on for some time...

Jared's playing of Sam, and Gadreel (who seems naive, and really young but very pretty (I am calling him the D'oh!Angel for falling for Metatron's lies - he isn't going to be second in command!)), and Gad imitating a noble warrior angel, has been just wonderful (to the extent that those of us who were guessing from still shots which was Sam and which wasn't got most of them right!) I want Sam back but I love angel Sam too because it is so great to see Jared stretching his wings (hah) acting wise.

Since 'Sam' reacted the way he did - Gadreel giving Dean the most believable (to Dean) response in order to give himself the few seconds he needed to kill Kevin (YB) - I think that when they get Sam back he will react in a totally different way - but I still don't think he will be saying thank you or will be understanding. I really hope he does give a genuine emotional, believable, response because I have invested so much in this completely nuts show ... :-) and it has not really paid off all its premises over the past season and a half.... on the other hand I am coming round to believe that the writers may actually be playing the long game ... and Amy I will be with you with the fruit baskets if they do manage it!

However for the moment I want the brothers to come to a new understanding and a new equality between them. NOT see Dean ground down by the SPN universe and his closest allies for his mistakes since we have already seen plenty of that with Sam's story but see him (after he has beaten himself up a little - because, Dean(!)) learning from what has happened. I am assuming Sam forgives him (for himself) but I hope he also makes it clear, to both himself and to Dean, what his issues with all of this are. Since I know that this is going to be the sticking point for many people I won't go into what I think Sam should feel about this - I just hope the show allows him to express whatever it turns out to be :-?

On a more positive note I really liked Castiel's part in the storyline (including what appeared to be several shout-outs to fans in the bar scene) and the only thing that REALLY came as a surprise was him getting grace back! (Sam not being possessed by an angel we didn't know was sort of a surprise but not really - Castiel hasn't really had the best of luck with picking his friends so Zeke could easily have been the big bad).

Anyway Sam as an angel, Dean darkside, Castiel with his mojo back and Crowley maybe back in the mix could lead to some seriously badass action next episode couldn't it :D Can't wait!
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-05 19:46
Great review Sweetondean! I loved this episode too, with the agreement that well if the angels are going to kill each other why should we care? It's like 'Heaven and Hell' all over again. They are taking human vessels it is true but saving people has taken a back burner over the last season and a half or so, so again why should we care?
I would love to see that this is what the show is moving on to addressing. That the show is about saving people and fighting the supernatural. It is about real people with crazy problems, like being possessed by angels.... The Winchesters are invincible but they get lots of ordinary people killed. Is that really what they should be doing? I know it would never happen but I would kind of like to see the last season of the show being about them going back to their first season roots and saving the world one person at a time.

But in the meantime some epic worldsaving isn't bad at all! And this episode was a really good example of what the show can do!

Poor boys, that last scene with Dean broken over the events that had come to the worst possible conclusion was just heartbreaking, especially since for a few minutes he Dean thought he could/had fix(ed) it, he told Sam, he thought that Sam was as angry as Dean would have been and had reacted the way Dean would have reacted and allowed the punishment to be swift, and brutal, and over.
But Sam doesn't know, maybe Sam hasn't been there to know and now Kevin is dead and Sam is no longer anywhere (maybe) or possibly is in there and aware and dealing with the comet that Castiel spoke about. It was a horrifying and bitter moment for him and Jensen played it amazingly.

I believe that Sam has only been gone since Gadreel (thanks for the name confirmation) found out about the spell but getting him back could be a tough process - and looks painful too - and has all sorts of repercussions if the spoiler is anything to go by. The repercussions of all this could go on for some time...

Jared's playing of Sam, and Gadreel (who seems naive, and really young but very pretty (I am calling him the D'oh!Angel for falling for Metatron's lies - he isn't going to be second in command!)), and Gad imitating a noble warrior angel, has been just wonderful (to the extent that those of us who were guessing from still shots which was Sam and which wasn't got most of them right!) I want Sam back but I love angel Sam too because it is so great to see Jared stretching his wings (hah) acting wise.

Since 'Sam' reacted the way he did - Gadreel giving Dean the most believable (to Dean) response in order to give himself the few seconds he needed to kill Kevin (YB) - I think that when they get Sam back he will react in a totally different way - but I still don't think he will be saying thank you or will be understanding. I really hope he does give a genuine emotional, believable, response because I have invested so much in this completely nuts show ... :-) and it has not really paid off all its premises over the past season and a half.... on the other hand I am coming round to believe that the writers may actually be playing the long game ... and Amy I will be with you with the fruit baskets if they do manage it!

However for the moment I want the brothers to come to a new understanding and a new equality between them. NOT see Dean ground down by the SPN universe and his closest allies for his mistakes since we have already seen plenty of that with Sam's story but see him (after he has beaten himself up a little - because, Dean(!)) learning from what has happened. I am assuming Sam forgives him (for himself) but I hope he also makes it clear, to both himself and to Dean, what his issues with all of this are. Since I know that this is going to be the sticking point for many people I won't go into what I think Sam should feel about this - I just hope the show allows him to express whatever it turns out to be :-?

On a more positive note I really liked Castiel's part in the storyline (including what appeared to be several shout-outs to fans in the bar scene) and the only thing that REALLY came as a surprise was him getting grace back! (Sam not being possessed by an angel we didn't know was sort of a surprise but not really - Castiel hasn't really had the best of luck with picking his friends so Zeke could easily have been the big bad).

Anyway Sam as an angel, Dean darkside, Castiel with his mojo back and Crowley maybe back in the mix could lead to some seriously badass action next episode couldn't it :D Can't wait!
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-05 19:49


Was I the only one with this visual every time Gadreels name was mentioned?
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-05 19:49


Was I the only one with this visual every time Gadreels name was mentioned?
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-12-05 20:07
Quoting eilf:
Was I the only one with this visual every time Gadreels name was mentioned?


I've been patiently awaiting the fanart! :D
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-12-05 20:07
Quote:
Was I the only one with this visual every time Gadreels name was mentioned?
I've been patiently awaiting the fanart! :D
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-05 21:04
Quoting sweetondean:
Quoting eilf:
Was I the only one with this visual every time Gadreels name was mentioned?


I've been patiently awaiting the fanart! :D

:D Well if we don't do it Orlando Jones will probably do it for us
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-05 21:04
Quote:
Quote:
Was I the only one with this visual every time Gadreels name was mentioned?
I've been patiently awaiting the fanart! :D
:D Well if we don't do it Orlando Jones will probably do it for us
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-05 21:30
Speaking of Metatron being X. I saw a suggestion somewhere that he means X as in Xmas. In other words he thinks he can be the son of God.

He isn't short of a good opinion of himself is he?
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-05 21:30
Speaking of Metatron being X. I saw a suggestion somewhere that he means X as in Xmas. In other words he thinks he can be the son of God.

He isn't short of a good opinion of himself is he?
st50
# st50 2013-12-05 21:42
Quoting eilf:
Quoting sweetondean:
Quoting eilf:
Was I the only one with this visual every time Gadreels name was mentioned?


I've been patiently awaiting the fanart! :D

:D Well if we don't do it Orlando Jones will probably do it for us


And here I was trying to be SO GOOD, and not mention that. :D

Thanks, SweetonDean for the review.. my initial reaction was very similar to post #1 above. ;-)

This was such an emotional episode. I'm very impressed by my not-favourite writing duo. They're coming up in my estimation this season.

But KEVIN! (you Bastards!)... If you HAD to kill Kevin, can we just please have Osric stay around?

I'm thinking that instead of getting furious and hitting Dean (like Gadreel did), the real Sam is going to be suicidal. I don't think he's recovered from his Sacrifice mindset, and that is going to be even harder for Dean to deal with. :cry:
st50
# st50 2013-12-05 21:42
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Was I the only one with this visual every time Gadreels name was mentioned?
I've been patiently awaiting the fanart! :D
:D Well if we don't do it Orlando Jones will probably do it for us
And here I was trying to be SO GOOD, and not mention that. :D

Thanks, SweetonDean for the review.. my initial reaction was very similar to post #1 above. ;-)

This was such an emotional episode. I'm very impressed by my not-favourite writing duo. They're coming up in my estimation this season.

But KEVIN! (you Bastards!)... If you HAD to kill Kevin, can we just please have Osric stay around?

I'm thinking that instead of getting furious and hitting Dean (like Gadreel did), the real Sam is going to be suicidal. I don't think he's recovered from his Sacrifice mindset, and that is going to be even harder for Dean to deal with. :cry:
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-12-05 21:46
eilf at first i thought he was called gandriel and i kept flashing to lord of the rings. gadriel...never even realized his name til i read the reviews. :lol:
awesome review, thanks for the beautiful words. i'm not worried about sam and dean either sweetondean. the fans are usually harder on the boys than they are with ea. other. they always forgive ea. other. and their love grows stronger ea. time the other screws up. their bond is as carver said..unshakeab le...so i agree totally that there is nothing to worry about there. ;-)
i was more excited with the promo than i was during the episode...i think it's going to be a similar approach that we had in s6....in s6 the end of eppy 10 is when sam got his soul back and eppy 11 was sam souled and the start of him dealing with the aftermath of that. i think, thanks to the daringest devil we know, that sam will be sam again by the end of eppy 10 and eppy 11 he will start to deal with the aftermath of it. that would explain jensen's comment about 10 being emotional for him and jared saying 11 was emotional for him. what deliciously sweet irony...crowley who has been dosed with a bout of humanity thanks to sam, will be the one to give sam back his human status by ejecting gadriel...what awesome symmetry that is. and the deal dean makes with crowley....in all honesty i think that's the best way to probably go, because if the winchesters have to choose between dealing with crowley or abbadon, well, i'd stick with the devil you know...especial ly when that devil has been doused with humanity that he can't seem to get rid of. if you think about it, sam's blood is running through crowley's veins ...does that make them kind of like blood brothers :o :lol: i agree that cas will probably heal sam, but you know what, i'm ok with that. i don't see that as a quick fix, as a matter of fact it's been a long time now, so the way i see it, it's actually a slow fix. but a fix is a fix and sam needs one...so if it's cas who does the healing i say yay...
as swarmy as metatron is, i can't help but like him, the same way i liked mark p as lucifer and kurt fuller as zachariah. he took a meek vessel so he's seemingly harmless, but he's actually quite brilliant and a formidable foe...yet sometimes he actually makes me laugh..i can't help it...i like metatron...but he does most definitely deserve what he's got coming to him. like most everyone else, except crowley, the bigger the ego, the more likely to underestimate the winchesters. it will be his downfall.
i've been thinking sod that kevin really wasn't much of a threat. i mean, all he had to do was take away the tablets right? which he had gad do...no tablets nothing to translate...so why was it so important to kill kevin? really just to test gadriels's loyalty? i don't think so. i mentioned it on another thread,...i'm starting to think that it wasn't about killing kevin, it was about killing a prophet. i'm thinking maybe metatron is working on another spell and the first step was killing a prophet. i'm not sure what he wants though? does he want to open the cage? does metatron want to go old school and let lucifer out ? does he want michael out? does he want to take over purgatory too? i don't know what he's up to ...but i have this itch...i feel like he's trying to accomplish something and he's using gadriel to do it, much the way he used cas. seems metatron doesn't want to get his own angel hands dirty. that's just this nagging feeling i have.
very excited for the second half of the season. i have the same attitude regarding the angels. just let them get rid of ea. other..but here's the problem with that...they are getting rid of ea. other in human shields...that' s where the winchesters come in....that's why they need to get the angels back to heaven....let them destroy ea. other in their own form and stop using humans as collateral damage.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-12-05 21:46
eilf at first i thought he was called gandriel and i kept flashing to lord of the rings. gadriel...never even realized his name til i read the reviews. :lol:
awesome review, thanks for the beautiful words. i'm not worried about sam and dean either sweetondean. the fans are usually harder on the boys than they are with ea. other. they always forgive ea. other. and their love grows stronger ea. time the other screws up. their bond is as carver said..unshakeab le...so i agree totally that there is nothing to worry about there. ;-)
i was more excited with the promo than i was during the episode...i think it's going to be a similar approach that we had in s6....in s6 the end of eppy 10 is when sam got his soul back and eppy 11 was sam souled and the start of him dealing with the aftermath of that. i think, thanks to the daringest devil we know, that sam will be sam again by the end of eppy 10 and eppy 11 he will start to deal with the aftermath of it. that would explain jensen's comment about 10 being emotional for him and jared saying 11 was emotional for him. what deliciously sweet irony...crowley who has been dosed with a bout of humanity thanks to sam, will be the one to give sam back his human status by ejecting gadriel...what awesome symmetry that is. and the deal dean makes with crowley....in all honesty i think that's the best way to probably go, because if the winchesters have to choose between dealing with crowley or abbadon, well, i'd stick with the devil you know...especial ly when that devil has been doused with humanity that he can't seem to get rid of. if you think about it, sam's blood is running through crowley's veins ...does that make them kind of like blood brothers :o :lol: i agree that cas will probably heal sam, but you know what, i'm ok with that. i don't see that as a quick fix, as a matter of fact it's been a long time now, so the way i see it, it's actually a slow fix. but a fix is a fix and sam needs one...so if it's cas who does the healing i say yay...
as swarmy as metatron is, i can't help but like him, the same way i liked mark p as lucifer and kurt fuller as zachariah. he took a meek vessel so he's seemingly harmless, but he's actually quite brilliant and a formidable foe...yet sometimes he actually makes me laugh..i can't help it...i like metatron...but he does most definitely deserve what he's got coming to him. like most everyone else, except crowley, the bigger the ego, the more likely to underestimate the winchesters. it will be his downfall.
i've been thinking sod that kevin really wasn't much of a threat. i mean, all he had to do was take away the tablets right? which he had gad do...no tablets nothing to translate...so why was it so important to kill kevin? really just to test gadriels's loyalty? i don't think so. i mentioned it on another thread,...i'm starting to think that it wasn't about killing kevin, it was about killing a prophet. i'm thinking maybe metatron is working on another spell and the first step was killing a prophet. i'm not sure what he wants though? does he want to open the cage? does metatron want to go old school and let lucifer out ? does he want michael out? does he want to take over purgatory too? i don't know what he's up to ...but i have this itch...i feel like he's trying to accomplish something and he's using gadriel to do it, much the way he used cas. seems metatron doesn't want to get his own angel hands dirty. that's just this nagging feeling i have.
very excited for the second half of the season. i have the same attitude regarding the angels. just let them get rid of ea. other..but here's the problem with that...they are getting rid of ea. other in human shields...that' s where the winchesters come in....that's why they need to get the angels back to heaven....let them destroy ea. other in their own form and stop using humans as collateral damage.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-12-05 21:56
I was stunned by the final few minutes of this episode and there were several ‘oh shit’ moments, including Zeke not really being Zeke. I always thought that we were going to have an angel who had good intentions to help Sam, but that he would get too comfortable in Sam’s vessel and not want to leave… and that would be Dean’s conundrum. But this was so much more painful than I was expecting :cry:

Despite the speculation about Kevin dying, I really didn’t think they’d go there. Because this makes everything so much worse for Sam and Dean (in hindsight, I guess I should’ve expected it because that’s what these writers do… but I think it’s called denial on my part).

I also believed that Sam would forgive Dean for letting an angel possess him – after initially being angry – but now that Gadreel used Sam’s body to kill Kevin, I just don’t know how he is going to forgive Dean. And I don’t know how he is going to forgive himself. I keep thinking back to his conversation with Death: “If I go with you... can you promise that this time it will be final? That if I'm dead, I stay dead. Nobody can reverse it, nobody can deal it away... and nobody else can get hurt because of me”.

Ouch. I feel so sick thinking about this after what happened to Kevin – the young man that Sam was always so protective of and kind to. While Dean was giving him pep pills and pushing him with motivational ‘sporting’ metaphors, Sam was telling him to get some sleep and fresh air, and encouraging him to be prepared for a marathon.

I do think Sam will forgive Dean eventually (he has to, doesn’t he?), but I don’t think he’ll ever forgive himself (even though it’s not his fault)... and that makes me incredibly sad :cry:

I also think that Dean will tell Sam the truth, even if Sam doesn’t remember being possessed. I mean, I'm sure Dean remembers how bad it was when the leviathan told Sam about Amy. He has to know that Sam will find out and I hope (with every fibre of my being) that the truth comes from Dean. Despite the inevitable fallout, I think Sam will eventually understand that Dean did what he had to do out of love.

Regarding the angel war, I’m intrigued by it and wonder where it’s going. But, like you sweetondean, I’m not emotionally connected to it (at least not yet). It would’ve been refreshing if we’d met one or two of the ‘good soldiers’ so that we’re not left with the feeling that the vast majority of angels are dicks! (Of course, I’m not talking about Cas and it was great to see him get back ‘the’ grace he needs to be effective in the angel war).

I am, however, totally invested in the Gadreel/Metatro n story and love the similarities that you’ve pointed out between Gadreel/Castiel and Gadreel/Sam. I hope this is deliberate… it has to be, doesn’t it?

Also, the way Gadreel so convincingly imitated Sam in the final scene makes me think he has practiced being Sam from time to time… so it’s not only creepy that he listened in on all their conversations, but that he may have been impersonating Sam on more than one occasion. Don’t get me wrong though, I don’t think it was Gadreel the whole time (as some have people have expressed) but, on occasion, yes, I think it might’ve been. I’m still dwelling on that scene in ‘Heaven Can’t Wait’ where Sam and Dean were on the phone and we only saw the back of Sam. Could Gadreel have been practicing using Sam’s voice at a time where Dean couldn’t see his face?

My theory back then was that Zeke was in hiding and didn’t want to go back to heaven, so he might’ve been hindering their efforts to reverse the spell. Now that it’s been revealed that Gadreel was imprisoned in heaven it confirms that he wouldn’t have wanted to go back there (at least not to the heaven that had him locked up). So I still suspect something was going on back then... and I wouldn’t be surprised if Crowley was in on it or at least that he knows that there’s been an angel in the house. After all, he immediately knew about the wicked witch, so maybe he can sense supernatural beings. I guess time will tell.

Wow, I didn’t mean to write such a long post, but my thoughts are all over the place. And that’s what I love about our little Show. It always keeps us theorising and still has the ability to surprise us! :-?

I thought Holy Terror was a brilliant mid-season cliff-hanger and I can’t wait for 14 January. Oh, and sweetondean, the Winchester brothers own me too ;-)
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-12-05 21:56
I was stunned by the final few minutes of this episode and there were several ‘oh shit’ moments, including Zeke not really being Zeke. I always thought that we were going to have an angel who had good intentions to help Sam, but that he would get too comfortable in Sam’s vessel and not want to leave… and that would be Dean’s conundrum. But this was so much more painful than I was expecting :cry:

Despite the speculation about Kevin dying, I really didn’t think they’d go there. Because this makes everything so much worse for Sam and Dean (in hindsight, I guess I should’ve expected it because that’s what these writers do… but I think it’s called denial on my part).

I also believed that Sam would forgive Dean for letting an angel possess him – after initially being angry – but now that Gadreel used Sam’s body to kill Kevin, I just don’t know how he is going to forgive Dean. And I don’t know how he is going to forgive himself. I keep thinking back to his conversation with Death: “If I go with you... can you promise that this time it will be final? That if I'm dead, I stay dead. Nobody can reverse it, nobody can deal it away... and nobody else can get hurt because of me”.

Ouch. I feel so sick thinking about this after what happened to Kevin – the young man that Sam was always so protective of and kind to. While Dean was giving him pep pills and pushing him with motivational ‘sporting’ metaphors, Sam was telling him to get some sleep and fresh air, and encouraging him to be prepared for a marathon.

I do think Sam will forgive Dean eventually (he has to, doesn’t he?), but I don’t think he’ll ever forgive himself (even though it’s not his fault)... and that makes me incredibly sad :cry:

I also think that Dean will tell Sam the truth, even if Sam doesn’t remember being possessed. I mean, I'm sure Dean remembers how bad it was when the leviathan told Sam about Amy. He has to know that Sam will find out and I hope (with every fibre of my being) that the truth comes from Dean. Despite the inevitable fallout, I think Sam will eventually understand that Dean did what he had to do out of love.

Regarding the angel war, I’m intrigued by it and wonder where it’s going. But, like you sweetondean, I’m not emotionally connected to it (at least not yet). It would’ve been refreshing if we’d met one or two of the ‘good soldiers’ so that we’re not left with the feeling that the vast majority of angels are dicks! (Of course, I’m not talking about Cas and it was great to see him get back ‘the’ grace he needs to be effective in the angel war).

I am, however, totally invested in the Gadreel/Metatro n story and love the similarities that you’ve pointed out between Gadreel/Castiel and Gadreel/Sam. I hope this is deliberate… it has to be, doesn’t it?

Also, the way Gadreel so convincingly imitated Sam in the final scene makes me think he has practiced being Sam from time to time… so it’s not only creepy that he listened in on all their conversations, but that he may have been impersonating Sam on more than one occasion. Don’t get me wrong though, I don’t think it was Gadreel the whole time (as some have people have expressed) but, on occasion, yes, I think it might’ve been. I’m still dwelling on that scene in ‘Heaven Can’t Wait’ where Sam and Dean were on the phone and we only saw the back of Sam. Could Gadreel have been practicing using Sam’s voice at a time where Dean couldn’t see his face?

My theory back then was that Zeke was in hiding and didn’t want to go back to heaven, so he might’ve been hindering their efforts to reverse the spell. Now that it’s been revealed that Gadreel was imprisoned in heaven it confirms that he wouldn’t have wanted to go back there (at least not to the heaven that had him locked up). So I still suspect something was going on back then... and I wouldn’t be surprised if Crowley was in on it or at least that he knows that there’s been an angel in the house. After all, he immediately knew about the wicked witch, so maybe he can sense supernatural beings. I guess time will tell.

Wow, I didn’t mean to write such a long post, but my thoughts are all over the place. And that’s what I love about our little Show. It always keeps us theorising and still has the ability to surprise us! :-?

I thought Holy Terror was a brilliant mid-season cliff-hanger and I can’t wait for 14 January. Oh, and sweetondean, the Winchester brothers own me too ;-)
BookLady
# BookLady 2013-12-05 21:57
Thanks, sweetondean!

You summed up what I felt, too!

My hope for the next half of the season is that Castiel and Gadreel have a heart-to-heart chat about Metatron and what a manipulative bastard he is and they team up to bring him down. Dean could help since he is a master at strategy. I mean, they caught Crowley, right?!

That they pull Gadreel out of Sam without harming Sam in any way and that Sam is so angered by the turn of events that he wants to get in the fight in a big way,especially after he sees what it has done to his brother. He helps re-ignite Purgatory Dean to get past the self-hating, guilt-ridden Dean. Jensen says that Dean is a very angry man and sometimes anger can be channeled in positive ways.

Sam is angry and hurt for a little while, but wants the past to stay in the past as long as Dean promises never, ever to let anything possess him again, no matter what. And, for Dean to stop meddling! Let Sam live his life, or death...

I'd like a scene like the one from Tombstone with Castriel, Dean, Sam and Gadreel walking down the street into a showdown, looking all tough and awesome, ready to do some battle with the jerk angels who are are killing God's hairless apes and taking over the place meant for them. Maybe the Men of Letters library has some information on ways to make bullets or something else lethal to angels since they obviously knew angels existed. Kevin did get information on the sigil from the library in the bunker.

Also, I think the next prophet should be female. We had lonely writer Chuck and driven, studious Kevin so hmmm ... all my thought point to someone like Jody...any suggestions? Let's get one of those actresses of a certain age in a great role - prophet of the Lord!! Maybe Benny could be brought back to be her bodyguard since we are fresh out of arch angels. Clif could give Ty some notes. :-)

And, the notes Kevin took are still in the bunker, right?! Sam/Gadreel only took the tablets, but not Kevin's notes which include the stuff in the extinct language so maybe someone more trust-worthy than Crowley could work on them.

The rest of the season will be very interesting, I'm sure, I know I'll be watching and so will a lot of other people, based on the ratings. Hurray, show!
BookLady
# BookLady 2013-12-05 21:57
Thanks, sweetondean!

You summed up what I felt, too!

My hope for the next half of the season is that Castiel and Gadreel have a heart-to-heart chat about Metatron and what a manipulative bastard he is and they team up to bring him down. Dean could help since he is a master at strategy. I mean, they caught Crowley, right?!

That they pull Gadreel out of Sam without harming Sam in any way and that Sam is so angered by the turn of events that he wants to get in the fight in a big way,especially after he sees what it has done to his brother. He helps re-ignite Purgatory Dean to get past the self-hating, guilt-ridden Dean. Jensen says that Dean is a very angry man and sometimes anger can be channeled in positive ways.

Sam is angry and hurt for a little while, but wants the past to stay in the past as long as Dean promises never, ever to let anything possess him again, no matter what. And, for Dean to stop meddling! Let Sam live his life, or death...

I'd like a scene like the one from Tombstone with Castriel, Dean, Sam and Gadreel walking down the street into a showdown, looking all tough and awesome, ready to do some battle with the jerk angels who are are killing God's hairless apes and taking over the place meant for them. Maybe the Men of Letters library has some information on ways to make bullets or something else lethal to angels since they obviously knew angels existed. Kevin did get information on the sigil from the library in the bunker.

Also, I think the next prophet should be female. We had lonely writer Chuck and driven, studious Kevin so hmmm ... all my thought point to someone like Jody...any suggestions? Let's get one of those actresses of a certain age in a great role - prophet of the Lord!! Maybe Benny could be brought back to be her bodyguard since we are fresh out of arch angels. Clif could give Ty some notes. :-)

And, the notes Kevin took are still in the bunker, right?! Sam/Gadreel only took the tablets, but not Kevin's notes which include the stuff in the extinct language so maybe someone more trust-worthy than Crowley could work on them.

The rest of the season will be very interesting, I'm sure, I know I'll be watching and so will a lot of other people, based on the ratings. Hurray, show!
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-05 22:03
Quoting nappi815:

i've been thinking sod that kevin really wasn't much of a threat. i mean, all he had to do was take away the tablets right? which he had gad do...no tablets nothing to translate...so why was it so important to kill kevin? really just to test gadriels's loyalty?

So people are pre-chosen to be prophets right? It is predestined because Castiel knows the names of all of them. But people age at the same rate regardless of the point at which they become the next prophet in line so clearly they have to be born at regular intervals (things I learned watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer ...) . But Crowley rounded up all the prophets and tried to kill them, he got 3 I think and then Sam rescued the rest (If I remember that correctly) and there weren't that many of them.

Maybe that is where Gadabout has gone - to kill all the rest of the prophets? Then it would take a long time before a newborn one would be old enough to be of use doing translations. It would also let Dean get on his trail pretty easily - Cas could probably help, or maybe the locator table will finally come into it's own?

Of course there is one prophet who might be out there hiding? He just vanished ... wonder where he went? He might come back....

Poor Kevin ... you know I didn't really feel so bad when his eyes were all burnt out and he was dead, since I was really expecting it to happen, but when I saw a clip of him alive again with those not-as-trusting -as-they-used-t o-be eyes - then I was SO sad he is gone :cry:
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-05 22:03
Quote:

i've been thinking sod that kevin really wasn't much of a threat. i mean, all he had to do was take away the tablets right? which he had gad do...no tablets nothing to translate...so why was it so important to kill kevin? really just to test gadriels's loyalty?
So people are pre-chosen to be prophets right? It is predestined because Castiel knows the names of all of them. But people age at the same rate regardless of the point at which they become the next prophet in line so clearly they have to be born at regular intervals (things I learned watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer ...) . But Crowley rounded up all the prophets and tried to kill them, he got 3 I think and then Sam rescued the rest (If I remember that correctly) and there weren't that many of them.

Maybe that is where Gadabout has gone - to kill all the rest of the prophets? Then it would take a long time before a newborn one would be old enough to be of use doing translations. It would also let Dean get on his trail pretty easily - Cas could probably help, or maybe the locator table will finally come into it's own?

Of course there is one prophet who might be out there hiding? He just vanished ... wonder where he went? He might come back....

Poor Kevin ... you know I didn't really feel so bad when his eyes were all burnt out and he was dead, since I was really expecting it to happen, but when I saw a clip of him alive again with those not-as-trusting -as-they-used-t o-be eyes - then I was SO sad he is gone :cry:
jarielynn
# jarielynn 2013-12-05 23:23
Awesome review sweetondean. I really enjoyed reading it and couldn't help but talk to my screen and nod in agreement.

I did want to add a thought... I believe that Gadreel was not sure what his next step was going to be when he got back to the bunker. I feel he was full of indecision. He's afraid. Hearing Dean and Kevin... he could have came out right then and killed Kevin, but he waited. I think he wanted to see what Dean would do. When Dean told "Sam" that he needed to expel the bad angel ... well it kind of pushed Gad over the edge. It was then that I was pretty damn sure that Dean wasn't talking to Sam. He wasn't angry in the Sam sense.. it was more like he was afraid and confused. His facial expressions and gestures... he seemed a bit lost. Like how he acts around Metatron. He's sad, afraid, lost and in some ways he was totally dependent on Dean. If Sam expelled him, he would not know where else to go and he might get caught by another angel. So, he decided to kill Kevin, and leave Dean. Killing Kevin gave him someone else to depend on - Metatron.

This has been rolling around my mind. I do think that Gad may step up and make things right. I am not thoroughly convinced of his evilness. Though, I do hate him right now for killing Kevin. As you mentioned- It was something he had to do.
jarielynn
# jarielynn 2013-12-05 23:23
Awesome review sweetondean. I really enjoyed reading it and couldn't help but talk to my screen and nod in agreement.

I did want to add a thought... I believe that Gadreel was not sure what his next step was going to be when he got back to the bunker. I feel he was full of indecision. He's afraid. Hearing Dean and Kevin... he could have came out right then and killed Kevin, but he waited. I think he wanted to see what Dean would do. When Dean told "Sam" that he needed to expel the bad angel ... well it kind of pushed Gad over the edge. It was then that I was pretty damn sure that Dean wasn't talking to Sam. He wasn't angry in the Sam sense.. it was more like he was afraid and confused. His facial expressions and gestures... he seemed a bit lost. Like how he acts around Metatron. He's sad, afraid, lost and in some ways he was totally dependent on Dean. If Sam expelled him, he would not know where else to go and he might get caught by another angel. So, he decided to kill Kevin, and leave Dean. Killing Kevin gave him someone else to depend on - Metatron.

This has been rolling around my mind. I do think that Gad may step up and make things right. I am not thoroughly convinced of his evilness. Though, I do hate him right now for killing Kevin. As you mentioned- It was something he had to do.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-05 23:24
Quote:
Sam is angry and hurt for a little while, but wants the past to stay in the past as long as Dean promises never, ever to let anything possess him again, no matter what. And, for Dean to stop meddling! Let Sam live his life, or death...
But how can Sam believe that and trust Dean to not let anything possess him again? When Sam went round the bend and trusted Ruby, drank demon blood and started the Apocalypse, he then proved himself to Dean by NEVER DOING THAT AGAIN. He stayed off demon blood, until Dean gave his okay as the last resort to stop Lucifer. He didn't trust another supernatural creature over Dean. After Dean killed Amy he was mad for an entire week then told Dean that Dean probably knew best. Yes, he didn't trust Benny, but that is a far cry from going off with a supernatural creature and trusting them more than Dean. He didn't know Benny. He knew how easy it is to get sucked in by a creature and he hedged his bets. Frankly even after Benny killed Martin Sam trusted Dean enough that he never tried to find and kill Benny, unlike Dean and Amy.

But Dean has done this type of thing before. He sold his soul to bring Sam back and the end result was a started Apocalypse, persistent guilt, possession by Lucifer, years of torture in the Cage, being soulless, being broken in mind and soul and Dean reminding him of his every failure. Certainly from Sam's POV dying at Cold Oak would have been far more merciful than what happened when he was brought back. (And YES I know that if Dean hadn't done that we wouldn't have a show and I should be "careful what I wish for" because well I'll leave it at that.) So after all of that and Sam suffering in the Cage for longer than Dean was in Hell, Dean goes out and gets ANOTHER supernatural creature to "save" Sam by possessing him. And this time Kevin dies by Sam's hand. (And NO I don't care that Gad saved Cas and Charlie not one iota). How does Dean prove that the next time Sam dies he won't do something horrific to keep him alive. Will he pinky swear? And what will he swear to? "If and when Sam dies,I Dean Winchester will not make a demon deal to bring him back. I will not let him be possessed by anything to save his life." And then he goes and digs up Doc Benton because that's NOT doing either of the things he promised not to do. Unlike Sam who didn't repeat his mistakes Dean did. How does Sam trust Dean to not do it again. The only way to prove it is to die and until then, Sam can never know if Dean will hold to his word.

This is really a mess in so many ways. Because this is a show, I'm sure they will work things out and Sam will forgive, but if I look at it as if these were real people I'd be telling Sam to run fast, run hard and see if Jodi can get him into Witness Protection.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-05 23:24
Quote:
Sam is angry and hurt for a little while, but wants the past to stay in the past as long as Dean promises never, ever to let anything possess him again, no matter what. And, for Dean to stop meddling! Let Sam live his life, or death...
But how can Sam believe that and trust Dean to not let anything possess him again? When Sam went round the bend and trusted Ruby, drank demon blood and started the Apocalypse, he then proved himself to Dean by NEVER DOING THAT AGAIN. He stayed off demon blood, until Dean gave his okay as the last resort to stop Lucifer. He didn't trust another supernatural creature over Dean. After Dean killed Amy he was mad for an entire week then told Dean that Dean probably knew best. Yes, he didn't trust Benny, but that is a far cry from going off with a supernatural creature and trusting them more than Dean. He didn't know Benny. He knew how easy it is to get sucked in by a creature and he hedged his bets. Frankly even after Benny killed Martin Sam trusted Dean enough that he never tried to find and kill Benny, unlike Dean and Amy.

But Dean has done this type of thing before. He sold his soul to bring Sam back and the end result was a started Apocalypse, persistent guilt, possession by Lucifer, years of torture in the Cage, being soulless, being broken in mind and soul and Dean reminding him of his every failure. Certainly from Sam's POV dying at Cold Oak would have been far more merciful than what happened when he was brought back. (And YES I know that if Dean hadn't done that we wouldn't have a show and I should be "careful what I wish for" because well I'll leave it at that.) So after all of that and Sam suffering in the Cage for longer than Dean was in Hell, Dean goes out and gets ANOTHER supernatural creature to "save" Sam by possessing him. And this time Kevin dies by Sam's hand. (And NO I don't care that Gad saved Cas and Charlie not one iota). How does Dean prove that the next time Sam dies he won't do something horrific to keep him alive. Will he pinky swear? And what will he swear to? "If and when Sam dies,I Dean Winchester will not make a demon deal to bring him back. I will not let him be possessed by anything to save his life." And then he goes and digs up Doc Benton because that's NOT doing either of the things he promised not to do. Unlike Sam who didn't repeat his mistakes Dean did. How does Sam trust Dean to not do it again. The only way to prove it is to die and until then, Sam can never know if Dean will hold to his word.

This is really a mess in so many ways. Because this is a show, I'm sure they will work things out and Sam will forgive, but if I look at it as if these were real people I'd be telling Sam to run fast, run hard and see if Jodi can get him into Witness Protection.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-12-05 23:35
#22 percysowner
Hi percy

Thankfully Sam does have a forgiving nature and it is something I love about him the most.

I'm not of the school that everything is either brother's fault. They have both made mistakes.

All I can say is that thank goodness Sam is more forgiving than the fandom (of both the brothers).
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-12-05 23:35
#22 percysowner
Hi percy

Thankfully Sam does have a forgiving nature and it is something I love about him the most.

I'm not of the school that everything is either brother's fault. They have both made mistakes.

All I can say is that thank goodness Sam is more forgiving than the fandom (of both the brothers).
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-05 23:57
#23 sweetondean Yes Sam is more forgiving, but at what point does forgiving Dean mean Sam is giving consent to Dean treating him badly? When someone violates you as badly as Dean violated Sam, and Sam forgives him why should Dean not do it again? I mean Sam will be mad for a hot minute but he'll come around, live the life Dean wants and Dean has no fallout.

But leaving that aside, the issue for me wouldn't be forgiving, because yeah, Sam does forgive. The issue is trust, you know that thing that Dean keeps telling Sam he has to earn back and then after Sam thinks he's earned it Dean tells him he STILL won't let it go? To me it's like having a living will and you go into cardiac arrest and when you wake up you find out the person who had your Power of Attorney, kept you alive by giving up a part of them so they will die in a year. Then when all hope is lost they are saved and you let them know how horrible it was and you really, really, really want that Living Will honored. And then you go into cardiac arrest again and when you wake up, you find out the person who didn't honor it last time hooked you up to a computer that takes over your life whenever it "has to do it" and you have no control. At what point do you say, yeah getting another person to take care of me, one who WON'T make my life a living hell. I understand why, I love them, I forgive them, but I sure as heck can't trust them with my well being.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-05 23:57
#23 sweetondean Yes Sam is more forgiving, but at what point does forgiving Dean mean Sam is giving consent to Dean treating him badly? When someone violates you as badly as Dean violated Sam, and Sam forgives him why should Dean not do it again? I mean Sam will be mad for a hot minute but he'll come around, live the life Dean wants and Dean has no fallout.

But leaving that aside, the issue for me wouldn't be forgiving, because yeah, Sam does forgive. The issue is trust, you know that thing that Dean keeps telling Sam he has to earn back and then after Sam thinks he's earned it Dean tells him he STILL won't let it go? To me it's like having a living will and you go into cardiac arrest and when you wake up you find out the person who had your Power of Attorney, kept you alive by giving up a part of them so they will die in a year. Then when all hope is lost they are saved and you let them know how horrible it was and you really, really, really want that Living Will honored. And then you go into cardiac arrest again and when you wake up, you find out the person who didn't honor it last time hooked you up to a computer that takes over your life whenever it "has to do it" and you have no control. At what point do you say, yeah getting another person to take care of me, one who WON'T make my life a living hell. I understand why, I love them, I forgive them, but I sure as heck can't trust them with my well being.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-12-06 00:00
#24
Like I said, I'm thankful Sam doesn't think like this.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-12-06 00:00
#24
Like I said, I'm thankful Sam doesn't think like this.
Chelsie
# Chelsie 2013-12-06 01:25
Lies and betrayals have been on both sides over the years, Dean is just as forgiving as Sam when it comes to these, so if Dean can forgive Sam for his, especially in Seasons 4 and 8, and trust Sam again, then Sam should be able to do the same thing.
Chelsie
# Chelsie 2013-12-06 01:25
Lies and betrayals have been on both sides over the years, Dean is just as forgiving as Sam when it comes to these, so if Dean can forgive Sam for his, especially in Seasons 4 and 8, and trust Sam again, then Sam should be able to do the same thing.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-12-06 01:32
Quoting percysowner:
#23 sweetondean Yes Sam is more forgiving, but at what point does forgiving Dean mean Sam is giving consent to Dean treating him badly? When someone violates you as badly as Dean violated Sam, and Sam forgives him why should Dean not do it again? I mean Sam will be mad for a hot minute but he'll come around, live the life Dean wants and Dean has no fallout.

But leaving that aside, the issue for me wouldn't be forgiving, because yeah, Sam does forgive. The issue is trust, you know that thing that Dean keeps telling Sam he has to earn back and then after Sam thinks he's earned it Dean tells him he STILL won't let it go? To me it's like having a living will and you go into cardiac arrest and when you wake up you find out the person who had your Power of Attorney, kept you alive by giving up a part of them so they will die in a year. Then when all hope is lost they are saved and you let them know how horrible it was and you really, really, really want that Living Will honored. And then you go into cardiac arrest again and when you wake up, you find out the person who didn't honor it last time hooked you up to a computer that takes over your life whenever it "has to do it" and you have no control. At what point do you say, yeah getting another person to take care of me, one who WON'T make my life a living hell. I understand why, I love them, I forgive them, but I sure as heck can't trust them with my well being.

I think if Sam is truly gone then we may get only Gadreel.Which i think is highly improbable but with Sam they go more for the "SHOCK VALUE" ..so just wanted to get that out of the way.
What I want Sam to do if and when he truly is himself is to pack his bags and go for his version of dean's vegas trip have some alone time...it may be camping or visit to a library or simply a trip to vegas...sort things out in his head first decide how HE wants their relationship to proceed .Then go back to the bunker .
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-12-06 01:32
Quote:
#23 sweetondean Yes Sam is more forgiving, but at what point does forgiving Dean mean Sam is giving consent to Dean treating him badly? When someone violates you as badly as Dean violated Sam, and Sam forgives him why should Dean not do it again? I mean Sam will be mad for a hot minute but he'll come around, live the life Dean wants and Dean has no fallout.

But leaving that aside, the issue for me wouldn't be forgiving, because yeah, Sam does forgive. The issue is trust, you know that thing that Dean keeps telling Sam he has to earn back and then after Sam thinks he's earned it Dean tells him he STILL won't let it go? To me it's like having a living will and you go into cardiac arrest and when you wake up you find out the person who had your Power of Attorney, kept you alive by giving up a part of them so they will die in a year. Then when all hope is lost they are saved and you let them know how horrible it was and you really, really, really want that Living Will honored. And then you go into cardiac arrest again and when you wake up, you find out the person who didn't honor it last time hooked you up to a computer that takes over your life whenever it "has to do it" and you have no control. At what point do you say, yeah getting another person to take care of me, one who WON'T make my life a living hell. I understand why, I love them, I forgive them, but I sure as heck can't trust them with my well being.
I think if Sam is truly gone then we may get only Gadreel.Which i think is highly improbable but with Sam they go more for the "SHOCK VALUE" ..so just wanted to get that out of the way.
What I want Sam to do if and when he truly is himself is to pack his bags and go for his version of dean's vegas trip have some alone time...it may be camping or visit to a library or simply a trip to vegas...sort things out in his head first decide how HE wants their relationship to proceed .Then go back to the bunker .
winmomwannabe
# winmomwannabe 2013-12-06 02:35
Oh Amy. Your review is spot on. I agree with all of it. I especially loved how you wanted the angels to disappear and the show to get back to the 'real' show. I was feeling the same way. In fact on rewatch I skipped some of them. Ha.

How can a show still be this creative, gut-wrenching, and wonderful after 9 years? Awesome cast and crew for sure. It leaves me amazed.

Keep writing because I love this show and love your positive vibes. It's entertainment at it's best, best, best. You just add to the whole thing. I read all of WFB reviews, but anxiously await yours because I feel so AHHHHH after I read it. Especially if others don't see an episode like I did. After reading yours I always think. "Ok, it wasn't just me."

Thank you for allowing me into your world.
winmomwannabe
# winmomwannabe 2013-12-06 02:35
Oh Amy. Your review is spot on. I agree with all of it. I especially loved how you wanted the angels to disappear and the show to get back to the 'real' show. I was feeling the same way. In fact on rewatch I skipped some of them. Ha.

How can a show still be this creative, gut-wrenching, and wonderful after 9 years? Awesome cast and crew for sure. It leaves me amazed.

Keep writing because I love this show and love your positive vibes. It's entertainment at it's best, best, best. You just add to the whole thing. I read all of WFB reviews, but anxiously await yours because I feel so AHHHHH after I read it. Especially if others don't see an episode like I did. After reading yours I always think. "Ok, it wasn't just me."

Thank you for allowing me into your world.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-06 02:38
Quoting Chelsie:
Lies and betrayals have been on both sides over the years, Dean is just as forgiving as Sam when it comes to these, so if Dean can forgive Sam for his, especially in Seasons 4 and 8, and trust Sam again, then Sam should be able to do the same thing.



What did Dean forgive , he clearly showed that he had not forgiven Sam or got past the hurts off the past. I do not include season 8 in any of this.

It is coming across to me that people care more about Sam forgiving Dean in all of this . Sam is not just Dean's brother but a person in his own right , right now he still experiencing the cage , it is all nightmares and pain . Possession and no free choice.

Sam made mistakes , he hurt Dean , he harmed himself with the demon blood addiction. But he never took Dean's free will away and he never trapped Dean in a body he had no say over and one that killed a boy he protected and cared about and now Sam is gone.

I personally do not want the brothers relationship at any cost but thats just me. Judging from the past Sam will forgive but he needs to be able to process everything first.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-06 02:38
Quote:
Lies and betrayals have been on both sides over the years, Dean is just as forgiving as Sam when it comes to these, so if Dean can forgive Sam for his, especially in Seasons 4 and 8, and trust Sam again, then Sam should be able to do the same thing.
What did Dean forgive , he clearly showed that he had not forgiven Sam or got past the hurts off the past. I do not include season 8 in any of this.

It is coming across to me that people care more about Sam forgiving Dean in all of this . Sam is not just Dean's brother but a person in his own right , right now he still experiencing the cage , it is all nightmares and pain . Possession and no free choice.

Sam made mistakes , he hurt Dean , he harmed himself with the demon blood addiction. But he never took Dean's free will away and he never trapped Dean in a body he had no say over and one that killed a boy he protected and cared about and now Sam is gone.

I personally do not want the brothers relationship at any cost but thats just me. Judging from the past Sam will forgive but he needs to be able to process everything first.
mary9930
# mary9930 2013-12-06 07:09
Quoting BookLady:


I'd like a scene like the one from Tombstone with Castriel, Dean, Sam and Gadreel walking down the street into a showdown, looking all tough and awesome, ready to do some battle with the jerk angels who are are killing God's hairless apes and taking over the place meant for them.


Thank you so much BookLady! That image will carry me through my despair over GadZeke. Why can't we care about more than 1 angel? The demons are much more likable than angels- Crowley, Meg. Angels as bad has become white noise. I understand the lack luster feel about angel wars.

How can Castiel be such a completely lovable character (for me at least)? Is Castiel the only angel who understands God's love of humanity? Even Muriel wasn't so much good as not bad. Gabriel struck me as pro Winchester & anti Arch Angel more than pro human. Balthazaar was more team Castiel than team human. Maybe Samandriel but we barely got to know him before he got killed.

To me it would be like making only the Winchesters decent humans- the exception to the rule. Can't we have more angels who are flawed but mostly good?
mary9930
# mary9930 2013-12-06 07:09
Quote:


I'd like a scene like the one from Tombstone with Castriel, Dean, Sam and Gadreel walking down the street into a showdown, looking all tough and awesome, ready to do some battle with the jerk angels who are are killing God's hairless apes and taking over the place meant for them.
Thank you so much BookLady! That image will carry me through my despair over GadZeke. Why can't we care about more than 1 angel? The demons are much more likable than angels- Crowley, Meg. Angels as bad has become white noise. I understand the lack luster feel about angel wars.

How can Castiel be such a completely lovable character (for me at least)? Is Castiel the only angel who understands God's love of humanity? Even Muriel wasn't so much good as not bad. Gabriel struck me as pro Winchester & anti Arch Angel more than pro human. Balthazaar was more team Castiel than team human. Maybe Samandriel but we barely got to know him before he got killed.

To me it would be like making only the Winchesters decent humans- the exception to the rule. Can't we have more angels who are flawed but mostly good?
Chelsie
# Chelsie 2013-12-06 07:46
For me, Season 8 has to be included because it is part of the history of the brothers' relationship, all that was said, done and not done, are all part of their relationship.

I would like to see the brothers separated and they both come back with what they BOTH want and need from the relationship and how they should proceed. I wanted this after Season 4, too. It has to be a two-way street, they BOTH need to change to have a better relationship. That was one part of my many problems with Fallon Idol, the dialogue just had Sam saying Dean had to change, but Sam also had and has to change too. Or they need to separate and go their own ways.

The problem is that it doesn't really matter what each brother says they want, because they may say something in the dialogue, but then the writers put them back in the same situations with the same results: there's something wrong with Sam and Dean needs to save Sam.
Chelsie
# Chelsie 2013-12-06 07:46
For me, Season 8 has to be included because it is part of the history of the brothers' relationship, all that was said, done and not done, are all part of their relationship.

I would like to see the brothers separated and they both come back with what they BOTH want and need from the relationship and how they should proceed. I wanted this after Season 4, too. It has to be a two-way street, they BOTH need to change to have a better relationship. That was one part of my many problems with Fallon Idol, the dialogue just had Sam saying Dean had to change, but Sam also had and has to change too. Or they need to separate and go their own ways.

The problem is that it doesn't really matter what each brother says they want, because they may say something in the dialogue, but then the writers put them back in the same situations with the same results: there's something wrong with Sam and Dean needs to save Sam.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-12-06 08:35
Beautiful review Sweetondean. I cried when Kevin died. I knew it was coming, but that didn't make it any easier. I cried for Sam and Dean, what this is going to do to both of them. I'm filled with anxiety about the whole deal. It's been on my mind ever since Tuesday night. I think about it before bed, when I wake up, when I'm driving, basically all the damn time! But I'll tell you one thing, I agree with you 100% when you said this:
Quote:
So I sit here for the next six weeks, full of dread but also full of hope that eventually, things will be okay again, because these guys always fill me with hope.
Thanks again, and may we all get through this Hellatus in one piece.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-12-06 08:35
Beautiful review Sweetondean. I cried when Kevin died. I knew it was coming, but that didn't make it any easier. I cried for Sam and Dean, what this is going to do to both of them. I'm filled with anxiety about the whole deal. It's been on my mind ever since Tuesday night. I think about it before bed, when I wake up, when I'm driving, basically all the damn time! But I'll tell you one thing, I agree with you 100% when you said this:
Quote:
So I sit here for the next six weeks, full of dread but also full of hope that eventually, things will be okay again, because these guys always fill me with hope.
Thanks again, and may we all get through this Hellatus in one piece.
st50
# st50 2013-12-06 10:12
You know, I believe that if any of us really thought either of the brothers was as unredeemable as our discussions make them sound, none of us would be watching the show anymore!
Both guys are heroes, but we know that neither could do the job without the other. That's the bottom line, and the reason I'm still watching. I think the writers know that. But....

The issues, I believe, come from two things:
1) We have a bunch of new writers who, although totally committed to having watched the show from the beginning, were not part of the show from the beginning, and so they missed out on some the emotional impact. They haven't had all nine years to fall in love with and worry about the Winchesters... so while the viewers are waiting for Sam and Dean to communicate and finally accept the depth of their relationship - and figure out how to grow within it, the writers are still looking for the big dramatic plot point. (that brings ratings, afterall).

and
2) We've lost a number of good strong women writers (yes, we have a couple), who have had a better understanding of how women react (much more viscerally than men) to the concept of consent. I wonder if the writingroom expected the depth of the reactions to Dean and Sam/Zeke/Gad that we've seen. Or for that matter, to the season 8 Sam-didn't-look crap. (although, again, it's great for ratings, apparently!)

And if we look at fan reactions to the conventions and fanfic, we apparently all go gooey over Protective!Jens en/Protective!D ean... so that's what they write...put Sam in jeopardy, and let Dean save/fix him. We've created our own catch22, endless loop....
st50
# st50 2013-12-06 10:12
You know, I believe that if any of us really thought either of the brothers was as unredeemable as our discussions make them sound, none of us would be watching the show anymore!
Both guys are heroes, but we know that neither could do the job without the other. That's the bottom line, and the reason I'm still watching. I think the writers know that. But....

The issues, I believe, come from two things:
1) We have a bunch of new writers who, although totally committed to having watched the show from the beginning, were not part of the show from the beginning, and so they missed out on some the emotional impact. They haven't had all nine years to fall in love with and worry about the Winchesters... so while the viewers are waiting for Sam and Dean to communicate and finally accept the depth of their relationship - and figure out how to grow within it, the writers are still looking for the big dramatic plot point. (that brings ratings, afterall).

and
2) We've lost a number of good strong women writers (yes, we have a couple), who have had a better understanding of how women react (much more viscerally than men) to the concept of consent. I wonder if the writingroom expected the depth of the reactions to Dean and Sam/Zeke/Gad that we've seen. Or for that matter, to the season 8 Sam-didn't-look crap. (although, again, it's great for ratings, apparently!)

And if we look at fan reactions to the conventions and fanfic, we apparently all go gooey over Protective!Jens en/Protective!D ean... so that's what they write...put Sam in jeopardy, and let Dean save/fix him. We've created our own catch22, endless loop....
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-06 12:05
#33 - st50 - I so agree with you. The PTB are constantly recycling the stories that had the most controversy, comments and interest. That is why Misha Collins has become a regular on the show for so long. The character of Castiel was not supposed to be around this long but was so popular he's lasted 5 years. Did anyone who watches the show really believe Sam was going to die or that Dean wasn't going to make a controversial choice in how he saved him? Did anyone watching last year when Sam told Dean he didn't look for him not go "Oh shit, the fans are going to be screaming about this." Quite frankly I was a little surprised at the season finale last year since Sam started out doing the trials because he was optimistic about a light at the end of the tunnel for him and Dean and ended up saying he felt unclean and like his biggest sin was letting Dean down. Even in S7 Sam said (in the one about feeling guilty) that he felt he had made up for any mistakes he made and was good.

I'm not sure many writers could stand up to the scrutiny that SPN writers do. Every word, every deed is checked for hidden meaning, canon and political correctness. There was actually a complaint because the actor who played young Dean had the wrong color of eyes.

All that being said, take a look at the ratings the show is getting right now. These writers are doing what the CW wants, getting more viewers. They definitely wanted the depth of the reaction they are getting.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-06 12:05
#33 - st50 - I so agree with you. The PTB are constantly recycling the stories that had the most controversy, comments and interest. That is why Misha Collins has become a regular on the show for so long. The character of Castiel was not supposed to be around this long but was so popular he's lasted 5 years. Did anyone who watches the show really believe Sam was going to die or that Dean wasn't going to make a controversial choice in how he saved him? Did anyone watching last year when Sam told Dean he didn't look for him not go "Oh shit, the fans are going to be screaming about this." Quite frankly I was a little surprised at the season finale last year since Sam started out doing the trials because he was optimistic about a light at the end of the tunnel for him and Dean and ended up saying he felt unclean and like his biggest sin was letting Dean down. Even in S7 Sam said (in the one about feeling guilty) that he felt he had made up for any mistakes he made and was good.

I'm not sure many writers could stand up to the scrutiny that SPN writers do. Every word, every deed is checked for hidden meaning, canon and political correctness. There was actually a complaint because the actor who played young Dean had the wrong color of eyes.

All that being said, take a look at the ratings the show is getting right now. These writers are doing what the CW wants, getting more viewers. They definitely wanted the depth of the reaction they are getting.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-06 12:57
Quoting Chelsie:
For me, Season 8 has to be included because it is part of the history of the brothers' relationship, all that was said, done and not done, are all part of their relationship.

I would like to see the brothers separated and they both come back with what they BOTH want and need from the relationship and how they should proceed. I wanted this after Season 4, too. It has to be a two-way street, they BOTH need to change to have a better relationship. That was one part of my many problems with Fallon Idol, the dialogue just had Sam saying Dean had to change, but Sam also had and has to change too. Or they need to separate and go their own ways.

The problem is that it doesn't really matter what each brother says they want, because they may say something in the dialogue, but then the writers put them back in the same situations with the same results: there's something wrong with Sam and Dean needs to save Sam.

Fair enough

My concern is with now and what I find disturbing in the brothers relationship and what value the writers see in Sam has person. I think we have gone beyond co-dependency and stepped into something different .
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-06 12:57
Quote:
For me, Season 8 has to be included because it is part of the history of the brothers' relationship, all that was said, done and not done, are all part of their relationship.

I would like to see the brothers separated and they both come back with what they BOTH want and need from the relationship and how they should proceed. I wanted this after Season 4, too. It has to be a two-way street, they BOTH need to change to have a better relationship. That was one part of my many problems with Fallon Idol, the dialogue just had Sam saying Dean had to change, but Sam also had and has to change too. Or they need to separate and go their own ways.

The problem is that it doesn't really matter what each brother says they want, because they may say something in the dialogue, but then the writers put them back in the same situations with the same results: there's something wrong with Sam and Dean needs to save Sam.
Fair enough

My concern is with now and what I find disturbing in the brothers relationship and what value the writers see in Sam has person. I think we have gone beyond co-dependency and stepped into something different .
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-06 14:11
You know when Dean was confessing to Sam/Gad in the store room when he said "the trials messed you up which messed me up and I made a decision" it was almost satisfactory to me. If Gadreel hadn't killed Kevin I could have almost seen Sam understand where Dean was coming from. But of course it all went sideways and now I don't know how they are going to get from here to it's all going to be ok (Jared promised it was). This show just keeps messing with us.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-06 14:11
You know when Dean was confessing to Sam/Gad in the store room when he said "the trials messed you up which messed me up and I made a decision" it was almost satisfactory to me. If Gadreel hadn't killed Kevin I could have almost seen Sam understand where Dean was coming from. But of course it all went sideways and now I don't know how they are going to get from here to it's all going to be ok (Jared promised it was). This show just keeps messing with us.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-12-06 14:16
"Awesome" review as usual, sweetondean! Your reviews are my favorite, although I read every word on the WFB. I completely agree with #28 winmomwannabe, as well.

Also I am glad I don't "keep score" on which brother owes the other more forgiveness. I don't do that in my personal life either. It would be very difficult to live that way, I would imagine.

And the images from the episode are burned into my brain too! Especially Kevin. Nooooo! And Dean crumpled, and Gad!Sam's unfeeling face and his legs climbing the stairs. I admit I cried then.

Poor Sam! Poor Dean! Poor Kevin! Poor l2b! How will we make it until January 14th? Moan. :cry:
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-12-06 14:16
"Awesome" review as usual, sweetondean! Your reviews are my favorite, although I read every word on the WFB. I completely agree with #28 winmomwannabe, as well.

Also I am glad I don't "keep score" on which brother owes the other more forgiveness. I don't do that in my personal life either. It would be very difficult to live that way, I would imagine.

And the images from the episode are burned into my brain too! Especially Kevin. Nooooo! And Dean crumpled, and Gad!Sam's unfeeling face and his legs climbing the stairs. I admit I cried then.

Poor Sam! Poor Dean! Poor Kevin! Poor l2b! How will we make it until January 14th? Moan. :cry:
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-06 14:37
I just read a review by Vanessa Chaffee. Her last comment was " Five years age Dean saw into a future that showed him the paths he and Sam would walk if they didn't deal with the Lucifer and Michael situation appropriately. In the version of 2014 Dean would lose Sam to an angel that would take over his body leaving Dean with nothing."
No matter what you do, you will always end up here. And it looks like "here" is where we are.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-06 14:37
I just read a review by Vanessa Chaffee. Her last comment was " Five years age Dean saw into a future that showed him the paths he and Sam would walk if they didn't deal with the Lucifer and Michael situation appropriately. In the version of 2014 Dean would lose Sam to an angel that would take over his body leaving Dean with nothing."
No matter what you do, you will always end up here. And it looks like "here" is where we are.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-12-06 22:19
Quoting st50:
You know, I believe that if any of us really thought either of the brothers was as unredeemable as our discussions make them sound, none of us would be watching the show anymore!
Both guys are heroes, but we know that neither could do the job without the other. That's the bottom line, and the reason I'm still watching.


So true.

I really hope that this is the last great wedge shoved between these two guys and that in the next season we can find the drama and the conflict in other ways. They can still have sibling drama, disagreements, whatever, without them at loggerheads and deeply damaged because of something one has done to the other or some catastrophicall y painful deceit. There are other ways drama can be written into their relationship and it doesn't always have to come from within.

If 10 turns out to be the final season, I want to see them caring for each other and having 'normal' brotherly disagreements that don't leave the fans in a messy puddle of pain. I want them to be shoulder to shoulder, supporting each other, saving people, hunting things...yadda yadda yadda.

Of course...I watch this show so probably, fat chance! :D
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-12-06 22:19
Quote:
You know, I believe that if any of us really thought either of the brothers was as unredeemable as our discussions make them sound, none of us would be watching the show anymore!
Both guys are heroes, but we know that neither could do the job without the other. That's the bottom line, and the reason I'm still watching.
So true.

I really hope that this is the last great wedge shoved between these two guys and that in the next season we can find the drama and the conflict in other ways. They can still have sibling drama, disagreements, whatever, without them at loggerheads and deeply damaged because of something one has done to the other or some catastrophicall y painful deceit. There are other ways drama can be written into their relationship and it doesn't always have to come from within.

If 10 turns out to be the final season, I want to see them caring for each other and having 'normal' brotherly disagreements that don't leave the fans in a messy puddle of pain. I want them to be shoulder to shoulder, supporting each other, saving people, hunting things...yadda yadda yadda.

Of course...I watch this show so probably, fat chance! :D
KimJ
# KimJ 2013-12-06 22:49
I had prepared myself for this episode, or so I thought. I knew it was going to be a heartbreaker. But nothing prepared me for the shocked state it left me in. I think there have been only a few instances in eps before where I have been even remotely as shocked as in this episode - Devil's Trap where the Impala was hit by the semi, All Hell Breaks Loose when Sam was stabbed, No Rest for the Wicked when Dean was mauled to death by the Hell Hounds, and the only one that wasn't a season finale (or finale double ep) Mystery Spot where Dean died on Wednesday. All shock factor 10!

So, I was prepared, right? Wrong. This episode shocked me not once, not twice, but at every twist or turn. I'm still reeling.

I'd wanted to trust Ezekiel, but past history told me Angels are untrustworthy so he had to be lying about something. I just didn't expect the lie to be so big, that he wasn't even Ezekiel! I was shocked when Dean confessed everything to Sam, only to find out it wasn't Sam in control, then for Gadreel (does Dean even know who the not-Zeke angel is?) to kill Kevin (Kevin!) before absconding with Sam's body. Oh My!!!

I think I spent half the episode with my fist stuffed in my mouth! Then I bawled at the end.

Amy, I love your wrap up. Yet again it expresses what I struggle to put into words. And, like you, I really don't give two figs for the angel war. I actually don't even care that much about Castiel unless he is playing an integral part in the story, which might be the case again now that he's got some mojo back.

With Gadreel running off with the tablets as well, Crowley (dungeon rat Crowley) may be the only one who can help with getting the angel spell reversed. I am convinced he was lying when he said the spell was irreversible. So Dean is now alone and desolate, with only Crowley and Castiel as possible help-mates. Oh boy!.

Carver and the writers are SOB's! They damn well know how gut-wenches they've left us. Bastards! You know how Castiel described Sam's soul when it was pulled out of the cage and shoved back into Sam? That's what my heart feels like.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Bring on January!
KimJ
# KimJ 2013-12-06 22:49
I had prepared myself for this episode, or so I thought. I knew it was going to be a heartbreaker. But nothing prepared me for the shocked state it left me in. I think there have been only a few instances in eps before where I have been even remotely as shocked as in this episode - Devil's Trap where the Impala was hit by the semi, All Hell Breaks Loose when Sam was stabbed, No Rest for the Wicked when Dean was mauled to death by the Hell Hounds, and the only one that wasn't a season finale (or finale double ep) Mystery Spot where Dean died on Wednesday. All shock factor 10!

So, I was prepared, right? Wrong. This episode shocked me not once, not twice, but at every twist or turn. I'm still reeling.

I'd wanted to trust Ezekiel, but past history told me Angels are untrustworthy so he had to be lying about something. I just didn't expect the lie to be so big, that he wasn't even Ezekiel! I was shocked when Dean confessed everything to Sam, only to find out it wasn't Sam in control, then for Gadreel (does Dean even know who the not-Zeke angel is?) to kill Kevin (Kevin!) before absconding with Sam's body. Oh My!!!

I think I spent half the episode with my fist stuffed in my mouth! Then I bawled at the end.

Amy, I love your wrap up. Yet again it expresses what I struggle to put into words. And, like you, I really don't give two figs for the angel war. I actually don't even care that much about Castiel unless he is playing an integral part in the story, which might be the case again now that he's got some mojo back.

With Gadreel running off with the tablets as well, Crowley (dungeon rat Crowley) may be the only one who can help with getting the angel spell reversed. I am convinced he was lying when he said the spell was irreversible. So Dean is now alone and desolate, with only Crowley and Castiel as possible help-mates. Oh boy!.

Carver and the writers are SOB's! They damn well know how gut-wenches they've left us. Bastards! You know how Castiel described Sam's soul when it was pulled out of the cage and shoved back into Sam? That's what my heart feels like.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Bring on January!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-12-07 01:20
Quoting Chelsie:
For me, Season 8 has to be included because it is part of the history of the brothers' relationship, all that was said, done and not done, are all part of their relationship.

I would like to see the brothers separated and they both come back with what they BOTH want and need from the relationship and how they should proceed. I wanted this after Season 4, too. It has to be a two-way street, they BOTH need to change to have a better relationship. That was one part of my many problems with Fallon Idol, the dialogue just had Sam saying Dean had to change, but Sam also had and has to change too. Or they need to separate and go their own ways.

The problem is that it doesn't really matter what each brother says they want, because they may say something in the dialogue, but then the writers put them back in the same situations with the same results: there's something wrong with Sam and Dean needs to save Sam.

If fallen Idol was the only episode in the season I would have agreed with you.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-12-07 01:20
Quote:
For me, Season 8 has to be included because it is part of the history of the brothers' relationship, all that was said, done and not done, are all part of their relationship.

I would like to see the brothers separated and they both come back with what they BOTH want and need from the relationship and how they should proceed. I wanted this after Season 4, too. It has to be a two-way street, they BOTH need to change to have a better relationship. That was one part of my many problems with Fallon Idol, the dialogue just had Sam saying Dean had to change, but Sam also had and has to change too. Or they need to separate and go their own ways.

The problem is that it doesn't really matter what each brother says they want, because they may say something in the dialogue, but then the writers put them back in the same situations with the same results: there's something wrong with Sam and Dean needs to save Sam.
If fallen Idol was the only episode in the season I would have agreed with you.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 11:12
Quoting anonymousN:
Quoting Chelsie:
For me, Season 8 has to be included because it is part of the history of the brothers' relationship, all that was said, done and not done, are all part of their relationship.

I would like to see the brothers separated and they both come back with what they BOTH want and need from the relationship and how they should proceed. I wanted this after Season 4, too. It has to be a two-way street, they BOTH need to change to have a better relationship. That was one part of my many problems with Fallon Idol, the dialogue just had Sam saying Dean had to change, but Sam also had and has to change too. Or they need to separate and go their own ways.

If fallen Idol was the only episode in the season I would have agreed with you.

By Fallen Idols Sam had been trying for some time to work to make things better and had said that was what he was trying to do. Dean on the other hand was nursing (not unreasonably) one of his now legendary grudges. It was important in FA that Dean acknowledge that relationships require a two way street. Both of the brothers had recognized the other one as being their fallen idol - Dean because of the fallout from the apocalypse (More because Sam needed something from Ruby that Dean couldn't provide - a sense of equality maybe? - than the apocalypse itself) and Sam because he was beginning to discover that there were things his brother would not forgive him for.

For me FI's important point is the admission by one (and one character only in the entire history of SPN - Dean himself) that if you start the apocalypse by breaking the first seal that puts you in the category (it is a short one) of 'people who started the Apocalypse'. A point conveniently forgotten by the time we get to Season 8 since both Dean and Cas can hide behind the fact that no-one knows about their complicity in it and Sam can be pushed front and center and take the flack.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-07 11:12
Quote:
Quote:
For me, Season 8 has to be included because it is part of the history of the brothers' relationship, all that was said, done and not done, are all part of their relationship.

I would like to see the brothers separated and they both come back with what they BOTH want and need from the relationship and how they should proceed. I wanted this after Season 4, too. It has to be a two-way street, they BOTH need to change to have a better relationship. That was one part of my many problems with Fallon Idol, the dialogue just had Sam saying Dean had to change, but Sam also had and has to change too. Or they need to separate and go their own ways.
If fallen Idol was the only episode in the season I would have agreed with you.
By Fallen Idols Sam had been trying for some time to work to make things better and had said that was what he was trying to do. Dean on the other hand was nursing (not unreasonably) one of his now legendary grudges. It was important in FA that Dean acknowledge that relationships require a two way street. Both of the brothers had recognized the other one as being their fallen idol - Dean because of the fallout from the apocalypse (More because Sam needed something from Ruby that Dean couldn't provide - a sense of equality maybe? - than the apocalypse itself) and Sam because he was beginning to discover that there were things his brother would not forgive him for.

For me FI's important point is the admission by one (and one character only in the entire history of SPN - Dean himself) that if you start the apocalypse by breaking the first seal that puts you in the category (it is a short one) of 'people who started the Apocalypse'. A point conveniently forgotten by the time we get to Season 8 since both Dean and Cas can hide behind the fact that no-one knows about their complicity in it and Sam can be pushed front and center and take the flack.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2013-12-07 11:31
I need the next few weeks to process all of this. So bring all the cookies, eggnog, pie, and liquor. And welcome the Winchester Bros back next year. Ole!
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2013-12-07 11:31
I need the next few weeks to process all of this. So bring all the cookies, eggnog, pie, and liquor. And welcome the Winchester Bros back next year. Ole!
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-07 12:22
Quote:
By Fallen Idols Sam had been trying for some time to work to make things better and had said that was what he was trying to do. Dean on the other hand was nursing (not unreasonably) one of his now legendary grudges. It was important in FA that Dean acknowledge that relationships require a two way street. Both of the brothers had recognized the other one as being their fallen idol - Dean because of the fallout from the apocalypse (More because Sam needed something from Ruby that Dean couldn't provide - a sense of equality maybe? - than the apocalypse itself) and Sam because he was beginning to discover that there were things his brother would not forgive him for.

For me FI's important point is the admission by one (and one character only in the entire history of SPN) that if you start the apocalypse by breaking the first seal that puts you in the category (it is a short one) of 'people who started the Apocalypse'. A point conveniently forgotten by the time we get to Season 8 since both Dean and Cas can hide behind the fact that no-one knows about their complicity in it and Sam can be pushed front and center and take the flack.
This is a very important point. I went to look at the transcript for FI http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=5.05_Fallen_Idols_%28transcript%29 and in the conversation between Sam and Dean In the conversation where Sam tells Dean things have to change. He starts by taking responsibility for his actions in season 4 by saying Quote:
SAM Look. I know what I did. What I've done. And I am trying to climb out of that hole, I am, but you're not making it any easier.

DEAN So what am I supposed to do, just let you off the hook?

SAM No. You can think whatever you want. I deserve it, and worse. Hell, you'll never punish me as much as I'm punishing myself, but the point is, if we're gonna be a team, you and I—it has to be a two-way street.
He then goes to repeatedly say WE have to change how this works. The only time he puts anything on Dean is when he is trying to explain why he went to Ruby.

Quote:
SAM
Dean, one of the reasons I went off with Ruby...was to get away from you.

DEAN
What?

SAM
It made me feel strong. Like I wasn't your kid brother.

DEAN
Are you saying this is my fault?

SAM
No, it's my fault. All I'm saying is that, if we're gonna do this, we have to do it different, we can't just fall into the same rut.

DEAN shakes his head.

DEAN
What do you want me to do?

SAM
You're gonna have to let me grow up, for starters
People go on about how Sam put everything on Dean. But he doesn't. He takes responsibility for his own actions. He admits going with Ruby was his fault. He doesn't browbeat Dean with ways in which Dean has failed. He states something that is true in any partnership, that if there isn't some kind of equality the partnership doesn't work. The ONLY thing Sam asks is that Dean let him grow up, which is not an over the top request. The thing is Dean still hasn't done that. Letting Sam grow up means letting Sam make decisions and face the consequences. It means not compulsively bringing him back from the dead. It means trusting him with information so Sam can make decisions. It means allowing Sam to make decisions that Dean doesn't like.

I will admit that I always felt that making the first seal Dean torturing in Heaven was a bad move. It should have been Dean making the deal in the first place. Heck, it could have been the first seal is broken when mother, father and child make a deal with a demon to reverse death the first seal breaks. They didn't do that, but I really wish they had.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-07 12:22
Quote:
By Fallen Idols Sam had been trying for some time to work to make things better and had said that was what he was trying to do. Dean on the other hand was nursing (not unreasonably) one of his now legendary grudges. It was important in FA that Dean acknowledge that relationships require a two way street. Both of the brothers had recognized the other one as being their fallen idol - Dean because of the fallout from the apocalypse (More because Sam needed something from Ruby that Dean couldn't provide - a sense of equality maybe? - than the apocalypse itself) and Sam because he was beginning to discover that there were things his brother would not forgive him for.

For me FI's important point is the admission by one (and one character only in the entire history of SPN) that if you start the apocalypse by breaking the first seal that puts you in the category (it is a short one) of 'people who started the Apocalypse'. A point conveniently forgotten by the time we get to Season 8 since both Dean and Cas can hide behind the fact that no-one knows about their complicity in it and Sam can be pushed front and center and take the flack.
This is a very important point. I went to look at the transcript for FI http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=5.05_Fallen_Idols_%28transcript%29 and in the conversation between Sam and Dean In the conversation where Sam tells Dean things have to change. He starts by taking responsibility for his actions in season 4 by saying Quote:
SAM Look. I know what I did. What I've done. And I am trying to climb out of that hole, I am, but you're not making it any easier.

DEAN So what am I supposed to do, just let you off the hook?

SAM No. You can think whatever you want. I deserve it, and worse. Hell, you'll never punish me as much as I'm punishing myself, but the point is, if we're gonna be a team, you and I—it has to be a two-way street.
He then goes to repeatedly say WE have to change how this works. The only time he puts anything on Dean is when he is trying to explain why he went to Ruby.

Quote:
SAM
Dean, one of the reasons I went off with Ruby...was to get away from you.

DEAN
What?

SAM
It made me feel strong. Like I wasn't your kid brother.

DEAN
Are you saying this is my fault?

SAM
No, it's my fault. All I'm saying is that, if we're gonna do this, we have to do it different, we can't just fall into the same rut.

DEAN shakes his head.

DEAN
What do you want me to do?

SAM
You're gonna have to let me grow up, for starters
People go on about how Sam put everything on Dean. But he doesn't. He takes responsibility for his own actions. He admits going with Ruby was his fault. He doesn't browbeat Dean with ways in which Dean has failed. He states something that is true in any partnership, that if there isn't some kind of equality the partnership doesn't work. The ONLY thing Sam asks is that Dean let him grow up, which is not an over the top request. The thing is Dean still hasn't done that. Letting Sam grow up means letting Sam make decisions and face the consequences. It means not compulsively bringing him back from the dead. It means trusting him with information so Sam can make decisions. It means allowing Sam to make decisions that Dean doesn't like.

I will admit that I always felt that making the first seal Dean torturing in Heaven was a bad move. It should have been Dean making the deal in the first place. Heck, it could have been the first seal is broken when mother, father and child make a deal with a demon to reverse death the first seal breaks. They didn't do that, but I really wish they had.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-07 12:28
Quoting Chelsie:
Lies and betrayals have been on both sides over the years, Dean is just as forgiving as Sam when it comes to these, so if Dean can forgive Sam for his, especially in Seasons 4 and 8, and trust Sam again, then Sam should be able to do the same thing.


But Dean HASN'T forgiven Sam either time. he claims he has but he brings it up time and time again. Dean simply does not forgive Sam. Other people, yes. Sam.. no. So i dont know why Sam HAS to forgive Dean. He will but i hope its on HIS terms...when SAM Is ready too forgive.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-07 12:28
Quote:
Lies and betrayals have been on both sides over the years, Dean is just as forgiving as Sam when it comes to these, so if Dean can forgive Sam for his, especially in Seasons 4 and 8, and trust Sam again, then Sam should be able to do the same thing.
But Dean HASN'T forgiven Sam either time. he claims he has but he brings it up time and time again. Dean simply does not forgive Sam. Other people, yes. Sam.. no. So i dont know why Sam HAS to forgive Dean. He will but i hope its on HIS terms...when SAM Is ready too forgive.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-07 12:49
Quoting sweetondean:
Quoting st50:
You know, I believe that if any of us really thought either of the brothers was as unredeemable as our discussions make them sound, none of us would be watching the show anymore!
Both guys are heroes, but we know that neither could do the job without the other. That's the bottom line, and the reason I'm still watching.


So true.

I really hope that this is the last great wedge shoved between these two guys and that in the next season we can find the drama and the conflict in other ways. They can still have sibling drama, disagreements, whatever, without them at loggerheads and deeply damaged because of something one has done to the other or some catastrophically painful deceit. There are other ways drama can be written into their relationship and it doesn't always have to come from within.

If 10 turns out to be the final season, I want to see them caring for each other and having 'normal' brotherly disagreements that don't leave the fans in a messy puddle of pain. I want them to be shoulder to shoulder, supporting each other, saving people, hunting things...yadda yadda yadda.

Of course...I watch this show so probably, fat chance! :D


I think many of us need to see this for the brothers. I know I personally would love to see this. I thought this is what i was going to get when i started watching the show in S1.
Getting this brotherly relationship where they are side by side, supporting each other, being honest adn respectful with each other. I think we need (deserve) this to make the other years of lys and deceit and betrayal worth it. I need to know that all this angst ad heartache was worth it.

You know...I'm not worried at all about Dean. Dean has something Sam never had in s8 or ven in s4. Dean has support. he has a brother and a best friend to stand by his side to help him find his way, to help him find Sam; to be there emotionally for him. Castiel will be in Deans corner every step of the way.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-07 12:49
Quote:
Quote:
You know, I believe that if any of us really thought either of the brothers was as unredeemable as our discussions make them sound, none of us would be watching the show anymore!
Both guys are heroes, but we know that neither could do the job without the other. That's the bottom line, and the reason I'm still watching.
So true.

I really hope that this is the last great wedge shoved between these two guys and that in the next season we can find the drama and the conflict in other ways. They can still have sibling drama, disagreements, whatever, without them at loggerheads and deeply damaged because of something one has done to the other or some catastrophically painful deceit. There are other ways drama can be written into their relationship and it doesn't always have to come from within.

If 10 turns out to be the final season, I want to see them caring for each other and having 'normal' brotherly disagreements that don't leave the fans in a messy puddle of pain. I want them to be shoulder to shoulder, supporting each other, saving people, hunting things...yadda yadda yadda.

Of course...I watch this show so probably, fat chance! :D
I think many of us need to see this for the brothers. I know I personally would love to see this. I thought this is what i was going to get when i started watching the show in S1.
Getting this brotherly relationship where they are side by side, supporting each other, being honest adn respectful with each other. I think we need (deserve) this to make the other years of lys and deceit and betrayal worth it. I need to know that all this angst ad heartache was worth it.

You know...I'm not worried at all about Dean. Dean has something Sam never had in s8 or ven in s4. Dean has support. he has a brother and a best friend to stand by his side to help him find his way, to help him find Sam; to be there emotionally for him. Castiel will be in Deans corner every step of the way.
st50
# st50 2013-12-07 13:39
I am TOTALLY on board with a season where the brothers are 100% together - without the contrived conflict. (let it be season 10 and beyond! :-) )
Just supporting and being supported by the only person who basically understands the entirety of who the other is and what he has been through his whole life.... And continuing to fight the good fight against evil on earth.
This would make me very happy.
st50
# st50 2013-12-07 13:39
I am TOTALLY on board with a season where the brothers are 100% together - without the contrived conflict. (let it be season 10 and beyond! :-) )
Just supporting and being supported by the only person who basically understands the entirety of who the other is and what he has been through his whole life.... And continuing to fight the good fight against evil on earth.
This would make me very happy.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-12-07 15:05
I want to see the season with the brothers together without the contrived conflict, saving people and hunting things, no angel cr@p. I would love that too!

And MC, I already told you how much I like Cannibal Cas moaning for Graaaaaace! Genius funny!
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-12-07 15:05
I want to see the season with the brothers together without the contrived conflict, saving people and hunting things, no angel cr@p. I would love that too!

And MC, I already told you how much I like Cannibal Cas moaning for Graaaaaace! Genius funny!
Melanie
# Melanie 2013-12-07 20:32
Quoting Bunyip:
Great review! I wanted to add, when Gadreel said "I've been playing him very well" I automatically assumed that he had been faking "Sam" the whole time, not just that day. So maybe Sam has been dead since the first episode.

I thought he meant that he had been playing Sam since he heard Kevin and Dean talking about the sigils, not the whole time. If it was Gadreel the whole time, why would he worry about lost time?
Melanie
# Melanie 2013-12-07 20:32
Quote:
Great review! I wanted to add, when Gadreel said "I've been playing him very well" I automatically assumed that he had been faking "Sam" the whole time, not just that day. So maybe Sam has been dead since the first episode.
I thought he meant that he had been playing Sam since he heard Kevin and Dean talking about the sigils, not the whole time. If it was Gadreel the whole time, why would he worry about lost time?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-07 20:57
Quote:
But Dean HASN'T forgiven Sam either time. he claims he has but he brings it up time and time again. Dean simply does not forgive Sam. Other people, yes. Sam.. no. So i dont know why Sam HAS to forgive Dean. He will but i hope its on HIS terms...when SAM Is ready too forgive.
This, although it's a little harder to say he forgives everyone else because only Sam stays around long enough for the resentment and anger to resurface. I think Dean may not let go of grievances easily, but he knows he should so he says things like he forgives Cas, John, whoever. But everyone goes away or Dean moves on, so he isn't left watching them every day and seeing them make some mistake that brings back all the other mistakes they made. I think Dean legitimately BELIEVES he has forgiven Sam every time he says it, but he really isn't capable of letting go.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-07 20:57
Quote:
But Dean HASN'T forgiven Sam either time. he claims he has but he brings it up time and time again. Dean simply does not forgive Sam. Other people, yes. Sam.. no. So i dont know why Sam HAS to forgive Dean. He will but i hope its on HIS terms...when SAM Is ready too forgive.
This, although it's a little harder to say he forgives everyone else because only Sam stays around long enough for the resentment and anger to resurface. I think Dean may not let go of grievances easily, but he knows he should so he says things like he forgives Cas, John, whoever. But everyone goes away or Dean moves on, so he isn't left watching them every day and seeing them make some mistake that brings back all the other mistakes they made. I think Dean legitimately BELIEVES he has forgiven Sam every time he says it, but he really isn't capable of letting go.
kaj
# kaj 2013-12-08 00:08
Quoting sweetondean Gadreel's obviously been tapping into Sam's thoughts and feelings too, because he said pretty much exactly what I was expecting real Sam to say.

I think it won't be difficult for Gadreel to do that because he'd been impersonating Dean at 9.01 trying to get Sam to say yes by tapping into Dean's mind and saying and acting exactly what Dean would have acted.

It's very easy for him to impersonate Sam as he'd been inside Sam and had read his thoughts and feelings and he'd also admitted that he knows everything that Sam knows. That's how he knows how twisted and messed up the brothers are.

Gadreel is a very dangerous angel if he is at the opposite of the brothers because he'd been intimate with their feelings and thought. Thus, he knew exactly of their weaknesses and can use that against them. But just like demons, angels are inherently arrogant. Perhaps he'll underestimate Sam and Dean enough for them to defeat him.
kaj
# kaj 2013-12-08 00:08
Quoting sweetondean Gadreel's obviously been tapping into Sam's thoughts and feelings too, because he said pretty much exactly what I was expecting real Sam to say.

I think it won't be difficult for Gadreel to do that because he'd been impersonating Dean at 9.01 trying to get Sam to say yes by tapping into Dean's mind and saying and acting exactly what Dean would have acted.

It's very easy for him to impersonate Sam as he'd been inside Sam and had read his thoughts and feelings and he'd also admitted that he knows everything that Sam knows. That's how he knows how twisted and messed up the brothers are.

Gadreel is a very dangerous angel if he is at the opposite of the brothers because he'd been intimate with their feelings and thought. Thus, he knew exactly of their weaknesses and can use that against them. But just like demons, angels are inherently arrogant. Perhaps he'll underestimate Sam and Dean enough for them to defeat him.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-12-08 02:09
I don't think I've seen it mentioned anywhere - probably because we were all in a state of shock and grief-stricken at the end of Holy Terror - but the location of the bunker is now at serious risk. If Gadreel tells anyone (Metatron being the most likely), they are screwed :eek:

So, when they try to evict Gadreel from Sam, will they also have to find a way to kill him?
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-12-08 02:09
I don't think I've seen it mentioned anywhere - probably because we were all in a state of shock and grief-stricken at the end of Holy Terror - but the location of the bunker is now at serious risk. If Gadreel tells anyone (Metatron being the most likely), they are screwed :eek:

So, when they try to evict Gadreel from Sam, will they also have to find a way to kill him?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-08 18:31
Quoting KG_SPN:
I don't think I've seen it mentioned anywhere - probably because we were all in a state of shock and grief-stricken at the end of Holy Terror - but the location of the bunker is now at serious risk. If Gadreel tells anyone (Metatron being the most likely), they are screwed :eek:

So, when they try to evict Gadreel from Sam, will they also have to find a way to kill him?


KG_SPN - I always wondered about that in a scene from last year. In As Time Goes By, the old man wrote down the coordinates of the MOL bunker and gave them to Sam; his wife was possessed by Abaddon at the time and she saw the piece of paper. Since Abaddon pursued Henry to 2013 and was looking to get the key, why wasn't this followed up on (or maybe it will be in the future?).

Same thing with Gadreel now. Though, more troubling was, when Metatron gave Gadreel the piece of paper with Kevin's name, he said that this was the first name. Is he going to have Gadreel go after Dean next?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-08 18:31
Quote:
I don't think I've seen it mentioned anywhere - probably because we were all in a state of shock and grief-stricken at the end of Holy Terror - but the location of the bunker is now at serious risk. If Gadreel tells anyone (Metatron being the most likely), they are screwed :eek:

So, when they try to evict Gadreel from Sam, will they also have to find a way to kill him?
KG_SPN - I always wondered about that in a scene from last year. In As Time Goes By, the old man wrote down the coordinates of the MOL bunker and gave them to Sam; his wife was possessed by Abaddon at the time and she saw the piece of paper. Since Abaddon pursued Henry to 2013 and was looking to get the key, why wasn't this followed up on (or maybe it will be in the future?).

Same thing with Gadreel now. Though, more troubling was, when Metatron gave Gadreel the piece of paper with Kevin's name, he said that this was the first name. Is he going to have Gadreel go after Dean next?
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-12-09 01:57
Quoting njspnfan:
Quoting KG_SPN:
I don't think I've seen it mentioned anywhere - probably because we were all in a state of shock and grief-stricken at the end of Holy Terror - but the location of the bunker is now at serious risk. If Gadreel tells anyone (Metatron being the most likely), they are screwed :eek:

So, when they try to evict Gadreel from Sam, will they also have to find a way to kill him?


KG_SPN - I always wondered about that in a scene from last year. In As Time Goes By, the old man wrote down the coordinates of the MOL bunker and gave them to Sam; his wife was possessed by Abaddon at the time and she saw the piece of paper. Since Abaddon pursued Henry to 2013 and was looking to get the key, why wasn't this followed up on (or maybe it will be in the future?).

Same thing with Gadreel now. Though, more troubling was, when Metatron gave Gadreel the piece of paper with Kevin's name, he said that this was the first name. Is he going to have Gadreel go after Dean next?


Yes, that's a good point. I also wondered about that at the time. Did Sam put the piece of paper in his pocket and Abbadon neglect to take it from him? Seems careless if that's the case. Or is she just bidding her time and building her army before she uses the information? We still have to find out what she was doing outside John's storage lock-up, too.

Regarding the Gadreel problem, I'm presuming they are going to try to expel him from Sam's vessel but, if they succeed, where does Gadreel go? I think when Alistair tried to do that to Cas he was sending him back to heaven? So, I wonder if that's even possible now.

It's a tricky situation. They can't kill Gadreel because he's in Sam's vessel, but they can't really expel him without the risk of him telling Metatron the location of the bunker :-?

Oh, and regarding Dean. I don't think he's on the list because Gadreel told Kevin Dean would be okay. Of course, he probably doesn't know who is next on Metatron's list. I saw somewhere else that someone mentioned that maybe he's killing all the existing prophets. That way it'd be a long time before the next generation of prophets are born. Or that killing a prophet might be the first part of a spell, like killing the nephilim was for the 'angels falling' spell. I guess time will tell :-)
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-12-09 01:57
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think I've seen it mentioned anywhere - probably because we were all in a state of shock and grief-stricken at the end of Holy Terror - but the location of the bunker is now at serious risk. If Gadreel tells anyone (Metatron being the most likely), they are screwed :eek:

So, when they try to evict Gadreel from Sam, will they also have to find a way to kill him?
KG_SPN - I always wondered about that in a scene from last year. In As Time Goes By, the old man wrote down the coordinates of the MOL bunker and gave them to Sam; his wife was possessed by Abaddon at the time and she saw the piece of paper. Since Abaddon pursued Henry to 2013 and was looking to get the key, why wasn't this followed up on (or maybe it will be in the future?).

Same thing with Gadreel now. Though, more troubling was, when Metatron gave Gadreel the piece of paper with Kevin's name, he said that this was the first name. Is he going to have Gadreel go after Dean next?
Yes, that's a good point. I also wondered about that at the time. Did Sam put the piece of paper in his pocket and Abbadon neglect to take it from him? Seems careless if that's the case. Or is she just bidding her time and building her army before she uses the information? We still have to find out what she was doing outside John's storage lock-up, too.

Regarding the Gadreel problem, I'm presuming they are going to try to expel him from Sam's vessel but, if they succeed, where does Gadreel go? I think when Alistair tried to do that to Cas he was sending him back to heaven? So, I wonder if that's even possible now.

It's a tricky situation. They can't kill Gadreel because he's in Sam's vessel, but they can't really expel him without the risk of him telling Metatron the location of the bunker :-?

Oh, and regarding Dean. I don't think he's on the list because Gadreel told Kevin Dean would be okay. Of course, he probably doesn't know who is next on Metatron's list. I saw somewhere else that someone mentioned that maybe he's killing all the existing prophets. That way it'd be a long time before the next generation of prophets are born. Or that killing a prophet might be the first part of a spell, like killing the nephilim was for the 'angels falling' spell. I guess time will tell :-)
Chelsie
# Chelsie 2013-12-09 06:07
We'll have to agree to disagree that Dean is unredeemable, that Dean doesn't forgive Sam (I think he does, but that doesn't mean he forgets or that he wasn't hurt). I still maintain my opinion about Fallen Idols. As I said before, nothing can change until something is for once not wrong with Sam and Dean isn't put in impossible situations to save Sam.

I think Dean is a great character, he's my favorite character, which I know goes against the grain on this site. I don't think he's done anything worse than Sam or Cas has done in the past.

So, Amy, I stand with you in supporting Dean.

Jensen has been amazing! Nuff said there. :-)
Chelsie
# Chelsie 2013-12-09 06:07
We'll have to agree to disagree that Dean is unredeemable, that Dean doesn't forgive Sam (I think he does, but that doesn't mean he forgets or that he wasn't hurt). I still maintain my opinion about Fallen Idols. As I said before, nothing can change until something is for once not wrong with Sam and Dean isn't put in impossible situations to save Sam.

I think Dean is a great character, he's my favorite character, which I know goes against the grain on this site. I don't think he's done anything worse than Sam or Cas has done in the past.

So, Amy, I stand with you in supporting Dean.

Jensen has been amazing! Nuff said there. :-)
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-09 06:40
I want some genuine proper thought for Sam in this mess .
I do not need Dean demonized over this , seen enough of that with Sam over the series but Dean chose to do this , he was not put in a impossible position , he chose this because he could not let Sam go . And it has come back and bitten him, poor Kevin and Sam in the backside.

Sam is the only one that has a right to Sam not anybody else no matter how much they love him or has some inbuilt condition to save at all costs.

As for Fallen Idols I supported Sam then and still do but that episode was 4 yrs ago and not what I care about now.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-09 06:40
I want some genuine proper thought for Sam in this mess .
I do not need Dean demonized over this , seen enough of that with Sam over the series but Dean chose to do this , he was not put in a impossible position , he chose this because he could not let Sam go . And it has come back and bitten him, poor Kevin and Sam in the backside.

Sam is the only one that has a right to Sam not anybody else no matter how much they love him or has some inbuilt condition to save at all costs.

As for Fallen Idols I supported Sam then and still do but that episode was 4 yrs ago and not what I care about now.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-09 06:59
#55 - I totally agree with you Chelsie.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-09 06:59
#55 - I totally agree with you Chelsie.
novi
# novi 2013-12-09 07:49
Now Gadreel is an angel who killed a prophet whom the angels are supposed to protect. I think Metatron used that panicky condition Gadreel was in to concoct a new scheme in which he may use now twice guilty Gadreel's grace or something else as an ingredient for his wicked spells.
Jared was superb playing the confused and scared angel. And when Jensen called Kevin in that small pleading voice - it was even more heartbreaking than the sight of Kevin's dead body.
novi
# novi 2013-12-09 07:49
Now Gadreel is an angel who killed a prophet whom the angels are supposed to protect. I think Metatron used that panicky condition Gadreel was in to concoct a new scheme in which he may use now twice guilty Gadreel's grace or something else as an ingredient for his wicked spells.
Jared was superb playing the confused and scared angel. And when Jensen called Kevin in that small pleading voice - it was even more heartbreaking than the sight of Kevin's dead body.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-09 10:10
Quote:
Jared was superb playing the confused and scared angel.
And Gadreel was superb as playing an authoritative angel who wanted to help and great at playing Sam. Basically, I'm not quite ready to go with Gadreel the scared and confused quite yet. However I do agree that Jared is acting the heck out of this role.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-09 10:10
Quote:
Jared was superb playing the confused and scared angel.
And Gadreel was superb as playing an authoritative angel who wanted to help and great at playing Sam. Basically, I'm not quite ready to go with Gadreel the scared and confused quite yet. However I do agree that Jared is acting the heck out of this role.
elise
# elise 2013-12-09 11:15
Quoting percysowner:
I think Dean legitimately BELIEVES he has forgiven Sam every time he says it, but he really isn't capable of letting go.


Yeah, probably not. Just one in a long list of flaws that have consistently been written into Dean's character like him being bossy, overbearing, inconsiderate, quick tempered, narrow minded, etc. And as some here have pointed out, he's very selfish and that's caused him to make many bad decisions about Sam. The writers have been very consistent about that.

It's clear that Dean is the villain this season, IMO. There's no manipulative demon or demon blood addiction influencing his actions, no possession by leviathans or anything of the kind. No, only Dean himself who is totally responsible for his wrong decisions, for allowing Sam to be possessed and for Kevin ending up dead.

So I imagine for many fans, Dean is now completely irredeemable. It would be nice to think the writers have also planned some sort of redemption arc for Dean (like Sam had in S5) so that he could be given the chance to make up for his bad decisions. But if the focus shifts to this angel war then probably not, I don't know.

I do wonder where are souls of deceased humans going if Heaven is closed, or at least that's the impression I get?
elise
# elise 2013-12-09 11:15
Quote:
I think Dean legitimately BELIEVES he has forgiven Sam every time he says it, but he really isn't capable of letting go.
Yeah, probably not. Just one in a long list of flaws that have consistently been written into Dean's character like him being bossy, overbearing, inconsiderate, quick tempered, narrow minded, etc. And as some here have pointed out, he's very selfish and that's caused him to make many bad decisions about Sam. The writers have been very consistent about that.

It's clear that Dean is the villain this season, IMO. There's no manipulative demon or demon blood addiction influencing his actions, no possession by leviathans or anything of the kind. No, only Dean himself who is totally responsible for his wrong decisions, for allowing Sam to be possessed and for Kevin ending up dead.

So I imagine for many fans, Dean is now completely irredeemable. It would be nice to think the writers have also planned some sort of redemption arc for Dean (like Sam had in S5) so that he could be given the chance to make up for his bad decisions. But if the focus shifts to this angel war then probably not, I don't know.

I do wonder where are souls of deceased humans going if Heaven is closed, or at least that's the impression I get?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-09 11:34
Quoting percysowner:
Quote:
But Dean HASN'T forgiven Sam either time. he claims he has but he brings it up time and time again. Dean simply does not forgive Sam. Other people, yes. Sam.. no. So i dont know why Sam HAS to forgive Dean. He will but i hope its on HIS terms...when SAM Is ready too forgive.


This, although it's a little harder to say he forgives everyone else because only Sam stays around long enough for the resentment and anger to resurface. I think Dean may not let go of grievances easily, but he knows he should so he says things like he forgives Cas, John, whoever. But everyone goes away or Dean moves on, so he isn't left watching them every day and seeing them make some mistake that brings back all the other mistakes they made. I think Dean legitimately BELIEVES he has forgiven Sam every time he says it, but he really isn't capable of letting go.
I do think Dean has finally moved on and forgiven Sam for his past transgressions. This started in 8.23 Sacrifice, when he finally saw what it was doing to Sam, and reenforced in 9.02 Devil May Care - when Sam mentioned to Dean that what Tracy said about him was true, Dean replied - "Sam, listen to me. You have helped a hell of a lot more people than you have hurt. So all of that... that was then. Okay? Here's to now."
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-12-09 11:34
Quote:
Quote:
But Dean HASN'T forgiven Sam either time. he claims he has but he brings it up time and time again. Dean simply does not forgive Sam. Other people, yes. Sam.. no. So i dont know why Sam HAS to forgive Dean. He will but i hope its on HIS terms...when SAM Is ready too forgive.
This, although it's a little harder to say he forgives everyone else because only Sam stays around long enough for the resentment and anger to resurface. I think Dean may not let go of grievances easily, but he knows he should so he says things like he forgives Cas, John, whoever. But everyone goes away or Dean moves on, so he isn't left watching them every day and seeing them make some mistake that brings back all the other mistakes they made. I think Dean legitimately BELIEVES he has forgiven Sam every time he says it, but he really isn't capable of letting go.
I do think Dean has finally moved on and forgiven Sam for his past transgressions. This started in 8.23 Sacrifice, when he finally saw what it was doing to Sam, and reenforced in 9.02 Devil May Care - when Sam mentioned to Dean that what Tracy said about him was true, Dean replied - "Sam, listen to me. You have helped a hell of a lot more people than you have hurt. So all of that... that was then. Okay? Here's to now."
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-09 12:09
Quote:
I do think Dean has finally moved on and forgiven Sam for his past transgressions. This started in 8.23 Sacrifice, when he finally saw what it was doing to Sam, and reenforced in 9.02 Devil May Care - when Sam mentioned to Dean that what Tracy said about him was true, Dean replied - "Sam, listen to me. You have helped a hell of a lot more people than you have hurt. So all of that... that was then. Okay? Here's to now."
Even better would have been acknowledging that Dean himself was part of starting the Apocalypse, something that has been totally ignored for a long time.

Quote:
Yeah, probably not. Just one in a long list of flaws that have consistently been written into Dean's character like him being bossy, overbearing, inconsiderate, quick tempered, narrow minded, etc. And as some here have pointed out, he's very selfish and that's caused him to make many bad decisions about Sam. The writers have been very consistent about that.

It's clear that Dean is the villain this season, IMO. There's no manipulative demon or demon blood addiction influencing his actions, no possession by leviathans or anything of the kind. No, only Dean himself who is totally responsible for his wrong decisions, for allowing Sam to be possessed and for Kevin ending up dead.

So I imagine for many fans, Dean is now completely irredeemable. It would be nice to think the writers have also planned some sort of redemption arc for Dean (like Sam had in S5) so that he could be given the chance to make up for his bad decisions. But if the focus shifts to this angel war then probably not, I don't know.
I don't think redemption is what Dean needs as much as learning from these mistakes and changing his behavior to Sam. He has start treating Sam like an equal and he needs to tell SAM that he values him. I know, he tells everyone all the good Sam has done, but he doesn't do it when Sam is in the room. Even his long impassioned speech about how he had always had to take care of Sam and showing his love for Sam in AHBL2 was told to Sam's corpse, not a Sam who could hear it. Dean is good about telling Sam when Sam lets him down, but forgets to tell Sam when he does good. And Dean overriding Sam's express wishes takes away so much of Sam's independence.

I don't hate Dean and I know that what he has done came from desperation and fear and has had terrible consequences. I want to see Dean really look at what led to this. For me redemption is fixing what you can and changing what led to making the wrong choice, not making a grand gesture to redeem yourself.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-09 12:09
Quote:
I do think Dean has finally moved on and forgiven Sam for his past transgressions. This started in 8.23 Sacrifice, when he finally saw what it was doing to Sam, and reenforced in 9.02 Devil May Care - when Sam mentioned to Dean that what Tracy said about him was true, Dean replied - "Sam, listen to me. You have helped a hell of a lot more people than you have hurt. So all of that... that was then. Okay? Here's to now."
Even better would have been acknowledging that Dean himself was part of starting the Apocalypse, something that has been totally ignored for a long time.

Quote:
Yeah, probably not. Just one in a long list of flaws that have consistently been written into Dean's character like him being bossy, overbearing, inconsiderate, quick tempered, narrow minded, etc. And as some here have pointed out, he's very selfish and that's caused him to make many bad decisions about Sam. The writers have been very consistent about that.

It's clear that Dean is the villain this season, IMO. There's no manipulative demon or demon blood addiction influencing his actions, no possession by leviathans or anything of the kind. No, only Dean himself who is totally responsible for his wrong decisions, for allowing Sam to be possessed and for Kevin ending up dead.

So I imagine for many fans, Dean is now completely irredeemable. It would be nice to think the writers have also planned some sort of redemption arc for Dean (like Sam had in S5) so that he could be given the chance to make up for his bad decisions. But if the focus shifts to this angel war then probably not, I don't know.
I don't think redemption is what Dean needs as much as learning from these mistakes and changing his behavior to Sam. He has start treating Sam like an equal and he needs to tell SAM that he values him. I know, he tells everyone all the good Sam has done, but he doesn't do it when Sam is in the room. Even his long impassioned speech about how he had always had to take care of Sam and showing his love for Sam in AHBL2 was told to Sam's corpse, not a Sam who could hear it. Dean is good about telling Sam when Sam lets him down, but forgets to tell Sam when he does good. And Dean overriding Sam's express wishes takes away so much of Sam's independence.

I don't hate Dean and I know that what he has done came from desperation and fear and has had terrible consequences. I want to see Dean really look at what led to this. For me redemption is fixing what you can and changing what led to making the wrong choice, not making a grand gesture to redeem yourself.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-09 12:46
Quoting elise:
Quoting percysowner:
I think Dean legitimately BELIEVES he has forgiven Sam every time he says it, but he really isn't capable of letting go.


Yeah, probably not. Just one in a long list of flaws that have consistently been written into Dean's character like him being bossy, overbearing, inconsiderate, quick tempered, narrow minded, etc. And as some here have pointed out, he's very selfish and that's caused him to make many bad decisions about Sam. The writers have been very consistent about that.

It's clear that Dean is the villain this season, IMO. There's no manipulative demon or demon blood addiction influencing his actions, no possession by leviathans or anything of the kind. No, only Dean himself who is totally responsible for his wrong decisions, for allowing Sam to be possessed and for Kevin ending up dead.

So I imagine for many fans, Dean is now completely irredeemable. It would be nice to think the writers have also planned some sort of redemption arc for Dean (like Sam had in S5) so that he could be given the chance to make up for his bad decisions. But if the focus shifts to this angel war then probably not, I don't know.

I do wonder where are souls of deceased humans going if Heaven is closed, or at least that's the impression I get?

As someone who found myself entirely in Sam's corner last season and considered a huge amount of Dean's behavior (and a huge amount of the fan's backlash against Sam) REALLY unreasonable I have to say that I totally disagree with your interpretation of Dean here. I certainly am not in any category of fans who think he is unredeemable! Sam wasn't in that category in season 5 either. Unredeemable from what? Being unable to let go? Making a decision that turned out badly?

The brothers only really truly screw up when they are trying to do what they think is the best for their brother - which often clashes with both the wishes of the brother and the fate of the world. At the moment it is Dean, Dean has screwed up, it will have to be fixed and/or atoned for. This has happened year in and year out to Sam so we know that that is the result. Hopefully it will all end up in a better place for everyone (but I doubt it).

Dean is selfish only in one very specific way - over people he considers family - he can't bear to lose them. This is not necessarily a healthy mindset (because the Winchesters don't have a normal life) and it may not actually be good for him or the family member but it comes out of a good place.

I can't tell you what to post or not and I really don't want to lecture you, but I know that for me when people come on here and post 'Sam is so incredibly selfish, it's no wonder lots of the fans hate him' (as happened, in so many words, a little while back) it really pisses me off and it leads to some very polarized 'discussion' Can I suggest that maybe not being so black and white in your discussion of Dean might also be appreciated?

And yes Dean is definitely bossy, overbearing, and quick tempered (and sweet, and unable to talk about his feelings, and generous and good natured, and violent, and loyal and promiscuous and smart, and, and, and ....)*, he is Dean! And Sam drives him nuts - they are brothers - this comes with the territory. Sam also has personality traits that bug Dean. Mostly Sam just ignores Dean being Dean though - in fact one of my favorite early scenes in the show is in Skin where Dean is being all those things you listed and Sam just gives him this big-eyed look until he gives in and does what Sam wants anyway - it is very funny :-)

I am looking forward to seeing what happens next episode!

ETA: *... and funny and unable to sing ...
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-09 12:46
Quote:
Quote:
I think Dean legitimately BELIEVES he has forgiven Sam every time he says it, but he really isn't capable of letting go.
Yeah, probably not. Just one in a long list of flaws that have consistently been written into Dean's character like him being bossy, overbearing, inconsiderate, quick tempered, narrow minded, etc. And as some here have pointed out, he's very selfish and that's caused him to make many bad decisions about Sam. The writers have been very consistent about that.

It's clear that Dean is the villain this season, IMO. There's no manipulative demon or demon blood addiction influencing his actions, no possession by leviathans or anything of the kind. No, only Dean himself who is totally responsible for his wrong decisions, for allowing Sam to be possessed and for Kevin ending up dead.

So I imagine for many fans, Dean is now completely irredeemable. It would be nice to think the writers have also planned some sort of redemption arc for Dean (like Sam had in S5) so that he could be given the chance to make up for his bad decisions. But if the focus shifts to this angel war then probably not, I don't know.

I do wonder where are souls of deceased humans going if Heaven is closed, or at least that's the impression I get?
As someone who found myself entirely in Sam's corner last season and considered a huge amount of Dean's behavior (and a huge amount of the fan's backlash against Sam) REALLY unreasonable I have to say that I totally disagree with your interpretation of Dean here. I certainly am not in any category of fans who think he is unredeemable! Sam wasn't in that category in season 5 either. Unredeemable from what? Being unable to let go? Making a decision that turned out badly?

The brothers only really truly screw up when they are trying to do what they think is the best for their brother - which often clashes with both the wishes of the brother and the fate of the world. At the moment it is Dean, Dean has screwed up, it will have to be fixed and/or atoned for. This has happened year in and year out to Sam so we know that that is the result. Hopefully it will all end up in a better place for everyone (but I doubt it).

Dean is selfish only in one very specific way - over people he considers family - he can't bear to lose them. This is not necessarily a healthy mindset (because the Winchesters don't have a normal life) and it may not actually be good for him or the family member but it comes out of a good place.

I can't tell you what to post or not and I really don't want to lecture you, but I know that for me when people come on here and post 'Sam is so incredibly selfish, it's no wonder lots of the fans hate him' (as happened, in so many words, a little while back) it really pisses me off and it leads to some very polarized 'discussion' Can I suggest that maybe not being so black and white in your discussion of Dean might also be appreciated?

And yes Dean is definitely bossy, overbearing, and quick tempered (and sweet, and unable to talk about his feelings, and generous and good natured, and violent, and loyal and promiscuous and smart, and, and, and ....)*, he is Dean! And Sam drives him nuts - they are brothers - this comes with the territory. Sam also has personality traits that bug Dean. Mostly Sam just ignores Dean being Dean though - in fact one of my favorite early scenes in the show is in Skin where Dean is being all those things you listed and Sam just gives him this big-eyed look until he gives in and does what Sam wants anyway - it is very funny :-)

I am looking forward to seeing what happens next episode!

ETA: *... and funny and unable to sing ...
st50
# st50 2013-12-09 13:09
#63
Well said, eilf. I am so very tired of the black and white statements against either of the brothers.

This show is ENTIRELY made up of grey areas.

NEITHER is all good - or all bad. And NEITHER is hated by the majority of fans. Those who hate - and express that hate - are a vocal minority, imho, who fail to understand the essential character of the brother they dislike.

I am also looking forward to the next episode, and how the brothers are going to cope.
st50
# st50 2013-12-09 13:09
#63
Well said, eilf. I am so very tired of the black and white statements against either of the brothers.

This show is ENTIRELY made up of grey areas.

NEITHER is all good - or all bad. And NEITHER is hated by the majority of fans. Those who hate - and express that hate - are a vocal minority, imho, who fail to understand the essential character of the brother they dislike.

I am also looking forward to the next episode, and how the brothers are going to cope.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-09 14:12
Just like with Sam and I don't think that Dean is irredeemable. He is going to punish himself worse than anything another character could do. We already know that about Dean. Of course he will be forgiven by Sam in the end the question is will Dean forgive himself. Is that going to be Dean's dark place that he needs to be rescued from?
I wondered why Gadreel was so horrified that there were no angels in heaven. Does that mean that heaven is unprotected? Does that mean that the souls there are at risk? Is that why Crowley said that the spell was irreversible? Maybe heaven is ripe for the picking. Hmmm......
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-12-09 14:12
Just like with Sam and I don't think that Dean is irredeemable. He is going to punish himself worse than anything another character could do. We already know that about Dean. Of course he will be forgiven by Sam in the end the question is will Dean forgive himself. Is that going to be Dean's dark place that he needs to be rescued from?
I wondered why Gadreel was so horrified that there were no angels in heaven. Does that mean that heaven is unprotected? Does that mean that the souls there are at risk? Is that why Crowley said that the spell was irreversible? Maybe heaven is ripe for the picking. Hmmm......
leah d
# leah d 2013-12-09 19:24
eilf @63 and st50 @64- Very well said ladies. Thank you. :-)
leah d
# leah d 2013-12-09 19:24
eilf @63 and st50 @64- Very well said ladies. Thank you. :-)
elise
# elise 2013-12-10 09:07
Quoting percysowner:
Quote:
Yeah, probably not. Just one in a long list of flaws that have consistently been written into Dean's character like him being bossy, overbearing, inconsiderate, quick tempered, narrow minded, etc. And as some here have pointed out, he's very selfish and that's caused him to make many bad decisions about Sam. The writers have been very consistent about that.

It's clear that Dean is the villain this season, IMO. There's no manipulative demon or demon blood addiction influencing his actions, no possession by leviathans or anything of the kind. No, only Dean himself who is totally responsible for his wrong decisions, for allowing Sam to be possessed and for Kevin ending up dead.

So I imagine for many fans, Dean is now completely irredeemable. It would be nice to think the writers have also planned some sort of redemption arc for Dean (like Sam had in S5) so that he could be given the chance to make up for his bad decisions. But if the focus shifts to this angel war then probably not, I don't know.


I don't think redemption is what Dean needs as much as learning from these mistakes and changing his behavior to Sam. He has start treating Sam like an equal and he needs to tell SAM that he values him. I know, he tells everyone all the good Sam has done, but he doesn't do it when Sam is in the room. Even his long impassioned speech about how he had always had to take care of Sam and showing his love for Sam in AHBL2 was told to Sam's corpse, not a Sam who could hear it. Dean is good about telling Sam when Sam lets him down, but forgets to tell Sam when he does good. And Dean overriding Sam's express wishes takes away so much of Sam's independence.

I don't hate Dean and I know that what he has done came from desperation and fear and has had terrible consequences. I want to see Dean really look at what led to this. For me redemption is fixing what you can and changing what led to making the wrong choice, not making a grand gesture to redeem yourself.
But this is exactly what the writers want apparently. They place Dean in a no-win situation (usually with Sam) and have him make a (bad) choice. This choice usually sets up Sam's storyline/mytha rc, as it's done again this season. I don't think the writers care to have Dean ACTUALLY grow or learn from "his" (or rather, the writer's) mistakes because they need a character who will react to a threat to Sam (our main protagonist) with, as you say, desperation and fear, and make choices that have terrible consequences.

IMO, the writers have trapped Dean in this cycle of "letting Sam grow up/make his own decisions/let him go" for many, many seasons. And after Dean appears to have learned his lesson (because Dean has apologized many times to Sam for things he's done), the writers come up with ways (i.e. Dean must do X or Sam will DIE) to place him right back in the same "big-brother/pr otector" mindset where his FEAR and DESPERATION of losing Sam cause him to make terrible decisions so that yet another "what's wrong with Sam" storyline will be born.

So, if the writers could just come up with a main plot that didn't involve something being wrong with Sam, then perhaps they would also allow Dean to break the cycle of being the - as some perceive him to be - overbearing and suffocating brother.

As for Dean telling Sam about the good he's done and communicating positive feelings he has for Sam, I do think Dean has done that in the past, although clearly not to your (and perhaps other fans') satisfaction. I guess it's yet another flaw to add to the LONG list of flaws the writers want for Dean.

It just seems to me that they want to keep Dean in a state of non-growth because they might need to focus on Dean's flaws/negative traits to setup a key storyline (just as they did in 9.1). Only this time it's not simply "what's wrong with Sam?" -- it's "what did DEAN do to Sam?". And they've set it up so the perpetrator (i.e. villain) of this horrible scenario isn't a monster/demon/a ngel... it's Dean.

JMO.
elise
# elise 2013-12-10 09:07
Quote:
Quote:
Yeah, probably not. Just one in a long list of flaws that have consistently been written into Dean's character like him being bossy, overbearing, inconsiderate, quick tempered, narrow minded, etc. And as some here have pointed out, he's very selfish and that's caused him to make many bad decisions about Sam. The writers have been very consistent about that.

It's clear that Dean is the villain this season, IMO. There's no manipulative demon or demon blood addiction influencing his actions, no possession by leviathans or anything of the kind. No, only Dean himself who is totally responsible for his wrong decisions, for allowing Sam to be possessed and for Kevin ending up dead.

So I imagine for many fans, Dean is now completely irredeemable. It would be nice to think the writers have also planned some sort of redemption arc for Dean (like Sam had in S5) so that he could be given the chance to make up for his bad decisions. But if the focus shifts to this angel war then probably not, I don't know.
I don't think redemption is what Dean needs as much as learning from these mistakes and changing his behavior to Sam. He has start treating Sam like an equal and he needs to tell SAM that he values him. I know, he tells everyone all the good Sam has done, but he doesn't do it when Sam is in the room. Even his long impassioned speech about how he had always had to take care of Sam and showing his love for Sam in AHBL2 was told to Sam's corpse, not a Sam who could hear it. Dean is good about telling Sam when Sam lets him down, but forgets to tell Sam when he does good. And Dean overriding Sam's express wishes takes away so much of Sam's independence.

I don't hate Dean and I know that what he has done came from desperation and fear and has had terrible consequences. I want to see Dean really look at what led to this. For me redemption is fixing what you can and changing what led to making the wrong choice, not making a grand gesture to redeem yourself.
But this is exactly what the writers want apparently. They place Dean in a no-win situation (usually with Sam) and have him make a (bad) choice. This choice usually sets up Sam's storyline/mytha rc, as it's done again this season. I don't think the writers care to have Dean ACTUALLY grow or learn from "his" (or rather, the writer's) mistakes because they need a character who will react to a threat to Sam (our main protagonist) with, as you say, desperation and fear, and make choices that have terrible consequences.

IMO, the writers have trapped Dean in this cycle of "letting Sam grow up/make his own decisions/let him go" for many, many seasons. And after Dean appears to have learned his lesson (because Dean has apologized many times to Sam for things he's done), the writers come up with ways (i.e. Dean must do X or Sam will DIE) to place him right back in the same "big-brother/pr otector" mindset where his FEAR and DESPERATION of losing Sam cause him to make terrible decisions so that yet another "what's wrong with Sam" storyline will be born.

So, if the writers could just come up with a main plot that didn't involve something being wrong with Sam, then perhaps they would also allow Dean to break the cycle of being the - as some perceive him to be - overbearing and suffocating brother.

As for Dean telling Sam about the good he's done and communicating positive feelings he has for Sam, I do think Dean has done that in the past, although clearly not to your (and perhaps other fans') satisfaction. I guess it's yet another flaw to add to the LONG list of flaws the writers want for Dean.

It just seems to me that they want to keep Dean in a state of non-growth because they might need to focus on Dean's flaws/negative traits to setup a key storyline (just as they did in 9.1). Only this time it's not simply "what's wrong with Sam?" -- it's "what did DEAN do to Sam?". And they've set it up so the perpetrator (i.e. villain) of this horrible scenario isn't a monster/demon/a ngel... it's Dean.

JMO.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-10 11:04
They both have flaws. How many times has Sam's been brought up ? , how many times as his past mistakes been brought up. It is not has if this is a Dean writing problem that hurts the character.

The difference is Dean gets the insight to understand his actions , the viewer is not left in the dark struggling around looking for a pov or insight and having to fill in the blanks themselves. Dean got this one badly wrong there is no getting away from that and it has resulted in tragedy and both himself and Sam have to deal with those consquences . But Dean will get the focus to allow us to feel with and for the character , wether in some eyes he is irredeemable well be down to the individual but he will get the storytelling to help his cause.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-10 11:04
They both have flaws. How many times has Sam's been brought up ? , how many times as his past mistakes been brought up. It is not has if this is a Dean writing problem that hurts the character.

The difference is Dean gets the insight to understand his actions , the viewer is not left in the dark struggling around looking for a pov or insight and having to fill in the blanks themselves. Dean got this one badly wrong there is no getting away from that and it has resulted in tragedy and both himself and Sam have to deal with those consquences . But Dean will get the focus to allow us to feel with and for the character , wether in some eyes he is irredeemable well be down to the individual but he will get the storytelling to help his cause.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-12-10 21:28
Quoting Sharon:

The difference is Dean gets the insight to understand his actions , the viewer is not left in the dark struggling around looking for a pov or insight and having to fill in the blanks themselves.


Though I guess if some fans see Dean as irredeemably that insight into the reason behind Dean's actions or who Dean is at his core is also not being communicated clearly enough...

I agree with #67 elise, that if we are to ever get a Dean who doesn't make rash judgements because he feels he's about to lose Sam in the worst possible way, we need the writers to stop putting Sam into these kind of situations, which lead Dean to feel that he has no other choice... "because it's who I am...there ain't no me if there ain't no you...we keep each other human...the trials messed you up and that messed me up...don't you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you!".

And eilf and st50 (#63 #64) that was beautifully said and as I see it, you have both captured the heart of this show. :-) (I'm sure I could add a thousand things to the list eilf started!) :lol:

Bring on the next episode. I can't remember the last time that I was so excited for the show to come back. Excited, scared, but mostly excited. Let's just get this thing done! Rip that band-aid off! :D
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-12-10 21:28
Quote:

The difference is Dean gets the insight to understand his actions , the viewer is not left in the dark struggling around looking for a pov or insight and having to fill in the blanks themselves.
Though I guess if some fans see Dean as irredeemably that insight into the reason behind Dean's actions or who Dean is at his core is also not being communicated clearly enough...

I agree with #67 elise, that if we are to ever get a Dean who doesn't make rash judgements because he feels he's about to lose Sam in the worst possible way, we need the writers to stop putting Sam into these kind of situations, which lead Dean to feel that he has no other choice... "because it's who I am...there ain't no me if there ain't no you...we keep each other human...the trials messed you up and that messed me up...don't you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you!".

And eilf and st50 (#63 #64) that was beautifully said and as I see it, you have both captured the heart of this show. :-) (I'm sure I could add a thousand things to the list eilf started!) :lol:

Bring on the next episode. I can't remember the last time that I was so excited for the show to come back. Excited, scared, but mostly excited. Let's just get this thing done! Rip that band-aid off! :D
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-10 22:41
I have to wonder if all the commenters who want Sam's POV will be satisfied if Sam's POV about Dean is not the anger they are hoping for. Not their POV. Maybe Sam will be glad he's not dead at 31 and he was hoping for Dean to have a plan, cause he usually does. Sam did keep asking Dean for a plan and he did say okay when Dean said he had one.

Way to go eilf #63 you summed up my feelings very nicely. I'm also a fan of Sleepy Hollow and I realized as I was watching this weeks episode how nice it was to have two main characters who were kind and supportive of one another even as they didn't necessarily agree on methods. We've had more comments about Dean's "horrible" actions then Metatron's. There is something wrong when the writers make that happen.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-10 22:41
I have to wonder if all the commenters who want Sam's POV will be satisfied if Sam's POV about Dean is not the anger they are hoping for. Not their POV. Maybe Sam will be glad he's not dead at 31 and he was hoping for Dean to have a plan, cause he usually does. Sam did keep asking Dean for a plan and he did say okay when Dean said he had one.

Way to go eilf #63 you summed up my feelings very nicely. I'm also a fan of Sleepy Hollow and I realized as I was watching this weeks episode how nice it was to have two main characters who were kind and supportive of one another even as they didn't necessarily agree on methods. We've had more comments about Dean's "horrible" actions then Metatron's. There is something wrong when the writers make that happen.
st50
# st50 2013-12-10 22:51
#70 - That's a good point, Prix68, and testament to the fact that it's really not clear what Sam is thinking/feelin g. Personally, however Sam reacts, I just want to understand how he got to that point - so we can avoid the months long discussion of people analyzing and playing "fill in the blanks" (like with the "didn't look" fiasco). They really need to explore his POV; not just infer and let everyone guess.

You're right. Sam DID hope for (expect?) Dean to have a plan, and he DID say okay when he thought Dean had one. (Obviously not one he'd have envisioned for himself, but maybe he would be okay with it, if he knew. Do you think he was aware enough that he now knows?)

I also agree about the main characters on Sleepy Hollow, and I REALLY hope the writers can find a way back to where Sam and Dean could be that supportive of each other. For all their protestations that they'd die for each other, they sure aren't always very good to each other. Boys! :lol:
st50
# st50 2013-12-10 22:51
#70 - That's a good point, Prix68, and testament to the fact that it's really not clear what Sam is thinking/feelin g. Personally, however Sam reacts, I just want to understand how he got to that point - so we can avoid the months long discussion of people analyzing and playing "fill in the blanks" (like with the "didn't look" fiasco). They really need to explore his POV; not just infer and let everyone guess.

You're right. Sam DID hope for (expect?) Dean to have a plan, and he DID say okay when he thought Dean had one. (Obviously not one he'd have envisioned for himself, but maybe he would be okay with it, if he knew. Do you think he was aware enough that he now knows?)

I also agree about the main characters on Sleepy Hollow, and I REALLY hope the writers can find a way back to where Sam and Dean could be that supportive of each other. For all their protestations that they'd die for each other, they sure aren't always very good to each other. Boys! :lol:
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-10 23:46
Quoting Prix68:
I have to wonder if all the commenters who want Sam's POV will be satisfied if Sam's POV about Dean is not the anger they are hoping for. Not their POV. Maybe Sam will be glad he's not dead at 31 and he was hoping for Dean to have a plan, cause he usually does. Sam did keep asking Dean for a plan and he did say okay when Dean said he had one.

Way to go eilf #63 you summed up my feelings very nicely. I'm also a fan of Sleepy Hollow and I realized as I was watching this weeks episode how nice it was to have two main characters who were kind and supportive of one another even as they didn't necessarily agree on methods. We've had more comments about Dean's "horrible" actions then Metatron's. There is something wrong when the writers make that happen.


Prix698, I want to apologize somewhat to you. My following response is not to you in particular. My reaction has been building and your post was my last straw. You are not the only and certainly not even the poster who most epitomizes what I am about to rant about. Sorry that your post is the one where I finally snapped. As a note for clarity I will call the angel possessing Sam as "Zeke" because the circumstance I would have wanted would have happened while we were told that the angel possessing Sam was Zeke, not Gadreel and I am going with the idea that Gadreel's lies would not have been uncovered until this episode in any case.

So, to answer your question, I don't know, Is it possible for those who are jumping all over us who want Sam to have a POV to not simply declare that we are all acting from bad motives and only want Sam to have the reaction we want? That in fact when we have asked that Sam be permitted a reaction that is HIS we are being honest? Because your question is fairly offensive. I have been told repeatedly on this board that if what I wanted had happened, i.e. Dean had let "Zeke" take over and then told Sam as soon as he could what had happened and let Sam decide to keep "Zeke" or expel him, then Sam would be dead and I would not have Sam. I"m not the one saying Sam would have kicked him out, the people who DON'T want Sam to have a choice are the ones saying it. Now, I do think that if Sam is angry he will have an absolute right to be, but I'm not the one assuming Sam would have thrown "Zeke" out. I'm being told that if Sam had a choice that dying would have been his decision and that I should shut the hell up about wanting Sam to decide what to do about his body or (and this IS a direct quote) I should be careful what I wish for because I might get it and never see Sam again (that was on WFB and on of the most insulting responses I have seen and not one you made Prix).

Have you ever considered that he would have said okay and all us unreasonable posters who care about Sam having autonomy over his body would have had been okay with the choice? Because I'm feeling incredibly jumped on with the assumption that I can't want Sam to choose for himself and react for himself. Posters are telling me flat out that Sam would choose wrongly (i.e. not what Dean wants) and therefore I should be glad that Dean let him be metaphorically raped. I mean Sam couldn't be brought back from the edge of death and ACTUALLY DECIDE what he wanted. ONLY DEAN got that call.

I realize that wanting Sam to choose his own path upsets many posters (not necessarily you Prix). But in all fairness those of us who have lobbied for Sam being permitted to make his own choice and to be able to feel and express whatever he feels really only WANT HIM TO HAVE HIS OWN CHOICE AND EXPRESS WHATEVER HE REALLY FEELS. It really isn't that hard.

I personally have theories on WHY people are pushing the Sam would be dead motif as well as teh Zeke wasn't evil motif, and the Gadreel is sympathetic motif and the killing Kevin isn't that bad motif (again, not you specifically Prix). My theories are not generous to those posters and I'm not going into them. But I find them bothersome to say the least.

The fact is the writing and fandom have consistently blamed Sam whenever he expresses ANY unhappiness with Dean. There are some of us who think Sam actually has a right to be whoever and whatever he wants. If he is written as accepting everything Dean did, it might not be what I would do, but I would accept it. God knows, I accepted him grovelling about how Dean was right about Amy. And Benny. And Ruby. And wanting to go back to college. And giving up Amelia. And never buying organic fruit again.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-10 23:46
Quote:
I have to wonder if all the commenters who want Sam's POV will be satisfied if Sam's POV about Dean is not the anger they are hoping for. Not their POV. Maybe Sam will be glad he's not dead at 31 and he was hoping for Dean to have a plan, cause he usually does. Sam did keep asking Dean for a plan and he did say okay when Dean said he had one.

Way to go eilf #63 you summed up my feelings very nicely. I'm also a fan of Sleepy Hollow and I realized as I was watching this weeks episode how nice it was to have two main characters who were kind and supportive of one another even as they didn't necessarily agree on methods. We've had more comments about Dean's "horrible" actions then Metatron's. There is something wrong when the writers make that happen.
Prix698, I want to apologize somewhat to you. My following response is not to you in particular. My reaction has been building and your post was my last straw. You are not the only and certainly not even the poster who most epitomizes what I am about to rant about. Sorry that your post is the one where I finally snapped. As a note for clarity I will call the angel possessing Sam as "Zeke" because the circumstance I would have wanted would have happened while we were told that the angel possessing Sam was Zeke, not Gadreel and I am going with the idea that Gadreel's lies would not have been uncovered until this episode in any case.

So, to answer your question, I don't know, Is it possible for those who are jumping all over us who want Sam to have a POV to not simply declare that we are all acting from bad motives and only want Sam to have the reaction we want? That in fact when we have asked that Sam be permitted a reaction that is HIS we are being honest? Because your question is fairly offensive. I have been told repeatedly on this board that if what I wanted had happened, i.e. Dean had let "Zeke" take over and then told Sam as soon as he could what had happened and let Sam decide to keep "Zeke" or expel him, then Sam would be dead and I would not have Sam. I"m not the one saying Sam would have kicked him out, the people who DON'T want Sam to have a choice are the ones saying it. Now, I do think that if Sam is angry he will have an absolute right to be, but I'm not the one assuming Sam would have thrown "Zeke" out. I'm being told that if Sam had a choice that dying would have been his decision and that I should shut the hell up about wanting Sam to decide what to do about his body or (and this IS a direct quote) I should be careful what I wish for because I might get it and never see Sam again (that was on WFB and on of the most insulting responses I have seen and not one you made Prix).

Have you ever considered that he would have said okay and all us unreasonable posters who care about Sam having autonomy over his body would have had been okay with the choice? Because I'm feeling incredibly jumped on with the assumption that I can't want Sam to choose for himself and react for himself. Posters are telling me flat out that Sam would choose wrongly (i.e. not what Dean wants) and therefore I should be glad that Dean let him be metaphorically raped. I mean Sam couldn't be brought back from the edge of death and ACTUALLY DECIDE what he wanted. ONLY DEAN got that call.

I realize that wanting Sam to choose his own path upsets many posters (not necessarily you Prix). But in all fairness those of us who have lobbied for Sam being permitted to make his own choice and to be able to feel and express whatever he feels really only WANT HIM TO HAVE HIS OWN CHOICE AND EXPRESS WHATEVER HE REALLY FEELS. It really isn't that hard.

I personally have theories on WHY people are pushing the Sam would be dead motif as well as teh Zeke wasn't evil motif, and the Gadreel is sympathetic motif and the killing Kevin isn't that bad motif (again, not you specifically Prix). My theories are not generous to those posters and I'm not going into them. But I find them bothersome to say the least.

The fact is the writing and fandom have consistently blamed Sam whenever he expresses ANY unhappiness with Dean. There are some of us who think Sam actually has a right to be whoever and whatever he wants. If he is written as accepting everything Dean did, it might not be what I would do, but I would accept it. God knows, I accepted him grovelling about how Dean was right about Amy. And Benny. And Ruby. And wanting to go back to college. And giving up Amelia. And never buying organic fruit again.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-11 03:54
Quoting Prix68:
I have to wonder if all the commenters who want Sam's POV will be satisfied if Sam's POV about Dean is not the anger they are hoping for. Not their POV. Maybe Sam will be glad he's not dead at 31 and he was hoping for Dean to have a plan, cause he usually does. Sam did keep asking Dean for a plan and he did say okay when Dean said he had one.

I do not find this question really necessary but however to answer your thoughts. I want Sam to have the reaction he needs to have in this situation and not one tempered because it was Dean .

I do not like the idea that somehow Sam was complicit in his possession and that he said a very dubious yes with the knowledge of what he was saying 'yes ' to . There is a consent issue here that is for a different conversation.

I want Sam's pov because we need to understand how he feels about this , what his mindset is and in fact would he be happy to be alive at 31with the price it has come at esp with Kevin who died at his hands although he wasnt in control .
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-11 03:54
Quote:
I have to wonder if all the commenters who want Sam's POV will be satisfied if Sam's POV about Dean is not the anger they are hoping for. Not their POV. Maybe Sam will be glad he's not dead at 31 and he was hoping for Dean to have a plan, cause he usually does. Sam did keep asking Dean for a plan and he did say okay when Dean said he had one.
I do not find this question really necessary but however to answer your thoughts. I want Sam to have the reaction he needs to have in this situation and not one tempered because it was Dean .

I do not like the idea that somehow Sam was complicit in his possession and that he said a very dubious yes with the knowledge of what he was saying 'yes ' to . There is a consent issue here that is for a different conversation.

I want Sam's pov because we need to understand how he feels about this , what his mindset is and in fact would he be happy to be alive at 31with the price it has come at esp with Kevin who died at his hands although he wasnt in control .
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-11 09:37
Sharon -" I want Sam to have the reaction he needs to have in this situation and not one tempered because it was Dean." That is your POV and you certainly have a right to it. What I am asking is what happens if that isn't Sam's POV. Will we then have nonstop complaints that Sam is being written OOC or that TPTB have ruined Sam's character like last season?

Percysowner - every time Dean expresses an opinion doesn't mean he's controlling Sam. Am I controlling you because we have different opinions? Not in this lifetime. If Dean persuaded Sam to his POV about Amy then fine. That was Sam's decision. If Sam doesn't go back to college then that is his decision. If Sam decides to hunt or not that is Sam's decision. Dean is in no way able to prevent Sam from doing any of the things you mentioned. Commenters are making Dean the big bad because he made a dubious decision under difficult circumstances and now want their pound of flesh in return. Commenters are routinely routing against a main character on this site (I don't read others) Routing for the two main characters to split up or one to die and still claiming to love a show because it is about the bond between two brothers.

And that is my problem with the show as it's been in the last couple of years. Constantly making the heroes be the bad guys is just wrong IMO. As a fan of the show and having invested so much of my time on it I find it irritating that we as fans fuel this fire with our comments and I do think TPTB pay attention to what fans are interested in and pitting brother against brother gets the big reaction every time. Who is the worse brother has become the big myth arc IMO and everything else is just window dressing. It is all starting to feel toxic to me and I'm sick of it.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-11 09:37
Sharon -" I want Sam to have the reaction he needs to have in this situation and not one tempered because it was Dean." That is your POV and you certainly have a right to it. What I am asking is what happens if that isn't Sam's POV. Will we then have nonstop complaints that Sam is being written OOC or that TPTB have ruined Sam's character like last season?

Percysowner - every time Dean expresses an opinion doesn't mean he's controlling Sam. Am I controlling you because we have different opinions? Not in this lifetime. If Dean persuaded Sam to his POV about Amy then fine. That was Sam's decision. If Sam doesn't go back to college then that is his decision. If Sam decides to hunt or not that is Sam's decision. Dean is in no way able to prevent Sam from doing any of the things you mentioned. Commenters are making Dean the big bad because he made a dubious decision under difficult circumstances and now want their pound of flesh in return. Commenters are routinely routing against a main character on this site (I don't read others) Routing for the two main characters to split up or one to die and still claiming to love a show because it is about the bond between two brothers.

And that is my problem with the show as it's been in the last couple of years. Constantly making the heroes be the bad guys is just wrong IMO. As a fan of the show and having invested so much of my time on it I find it irritating that we as fans fuel this fire with our comments and I do think TPTB pay attention to what fans are interested in and pitting brother against brother gets the big reaction every time. Who is the worse brother has become the big myth arc IMO and everything else is just window dressing. It is all starting to feel toxic to me and I'm sick of it.
st50
# st50 2013-12-11 09:57
Quoting Prix68:
........
And that is my problem with the show as it's been in the last couple of years. Constantly making the heroes be the bad guys is just wrong IMO. As a fan of the show and having invested so much of my time on it I find it irritating that we as fans fuel this fire with our comments and I do think TPTB pay attention to what fans are interested in and pitting brother against brother gets the big reaction every time. Who is the worse brother has become the big myth arc IMO and everything else is just window dressing. It is all starting to feel toxic to me and I'm sick of it.


I totally agree with this paragraph, Prix68.
I, for one, have been screaming for the writers to mend the relationship between the brothers. And STOP THIS BRO WAR.

I fell in love with the relationship between the brothers. Give me insight to them both. Show both guys how their brother truly feels, and stop this crap about who did the worst thing to whom, and who should be most angry over what.


I just want the brothers back on the same page, supporting and protecting each other, and fighting as a team.
st50
# st50 2013-12-11 09:57
Quote:
........
And that is my problem with the show as it's been in the last couple of years. Constantly making the heroes be the bad guys is just wrong IMO. As a fan of the show and having invested so much of my time on it I find it irritating that we as fans fuel this fire with our comments and I do think TPTB pay attention to what fans are interested in and pitting brother against brother gets the big reaction every time. Who is the worse brother has become the big myth arc IMO and everything else is just window dressing. It is all starting to feel toxic to me and I'm sick of it.
I totally agree with this paragraph, Prix68.
I, for one, have been screaming for the writers to mend the relationship between the brothers. And STOP THIS BRO WAR.

I fell in love with the relationship between the brothers. Give me insight to them both. Show both guys how their brother truly feels, and stop this crap about who did the worst thing to whom, and who should be most angry over what.


I just want the brothers back on the same page, supporting and protecting each other, and fighting as a team.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-11 10:21
Sorry Double post
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-11 10:21
Sorry Double post
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-11 10:24
Quoting Prix68:
Sharon -" I want Sam to have the reaction he needs to have in this situation and not one tempered because it was Dean." That is your POV and you certainly have a right to it. What I am asking is what happens if that isn't Sam's POV. Will we then have nonstop complaints that Sam is being written OOC or that TPTB have ruined Sam's character like last season?

Percysowner - every time Dean expresses an opinion doesn't mean he's controlling Sam. Am I controlling you because we have different opinions? Not in this lifetime. If Dean persuaded Sam to his POV about Amy then fine. That was Sam's decision. If Sam doesn't go back to college then that is his decision. If Sam decides to hunt or not that is Sam's decision. Dean is in no way able to prevent Sam from doing any of the things you mentioned. Commenters are making Dean the big bad because he made a dubious decision under difficult circumstances and now want their pound of flesh in return. Commenters are routinely routing against a main character on this site (I don't read others) Routing for the two main characters to split up or one to die and still claiming to love a show because it is about the bond between two brothers.

And that is my problem with the show as it's been in the last couple of years. Constantly making the heroes be the bad guys is just wrong IMO. As a fan of the show and having invested so much of my time on it I find it irritating that we as fans fuel this fire with our comments and I do think TPTB pay attention to what fans are interested in and pitting brother against brother gets the big reaction every time. Who is the worse brother has become the big myth arc IMO and everything else is just window dressing. It is all starting to feel toxic to me and I'm sick of it.


I'm confused by this post. You responded to Sharon's saying I want Sam to have the reaction he needs to have in this situation and not one tempered because it was Dean." By asking What I am asking is what happens if that isn't Sam's POV. I'm not sure how Sharon can want Sam's reaction to be Sam's reaction and but not have it be SAM'S REACTION. Sharon didn't say how she wanted Sam to react. She didn't specify actions. She merely stated that she wanted it to be validly Sam's. Do you insist that Sam have Garth's reaction? or Bobby's reaction? or Gad's reaction? or Cas's reaction? How is asking that Sam have a genuine reaction wrong? And although I am not Sharon, I will note that Sam's reaction to finding out about Amy happened off screen during the week that the brothers were not together. He really didn't get to state how it affected him emotionally when Dean lied to him, so perhaps that is one of the things Sharon is concerned about. That Sam will have worked through everything whiled meditating inside his body while Gad runs around being Metatron's hit man.

As to your response to me I assume you were answering this paragraph

Quote:
The fact is the writing and fandom have consistently blamed Sam whenever he expresses ANY unhappiness with Dean. There are some of us who think Sam actually has a right to be whoever and whatever he wants. If he is written as accepting everything Dean did, it might not be what I would do, but I would accept it. God knows, I accepted him grovelling about how Dean was right about Amy. And Benny. And Ruby. And wanting to go back to college. And giving up Amelia. And never buying organic fruit again.
Obviously I did not make myself clear enough. I stated all the times when Sam's reactions were not what I was hoping for and noted that I accepted them even though they weren't what I wanted for the character. I didn't mention Dean controlling Sam. In fact, I pasted my ENTIRE post into Word and searched, the word CONTROL appears nowhere in my response. If Sam does what you advocate and immediately forgives and accepts Dean's actions, I will not be thrilled, but considering he has always forgiven quickly I will also not call it OOC. I apologize that my post was not clear in it's intentions.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-11 10:24
Quote:
Sharon -" I want Sam to have the reaction he needs to have in this situation and not one tempered because it was Dean." That is your POV and you certainly have a right to it. What I am asking is what happens if that isn't Sam's POV. Will we then have nonstop complaints that Sam is being written OOC or that TPTB have ruined Sam's character like last season?

Percysowner - every time Dean expresses an opinion doesn't mean he's controlling Sam. Am I controlling you because we have different opinions? Not in this lifetime. If Dean persuaded Sam to his POV about Amy then fine. That was Sam's decision. If Sam doesn't go back to college then that is his decision. If Sam decides to hunt or not that is Sam's decision. Dean is in no way able to prevent Sam from doing any of the things you mentioned. Commenters are making Dean the big bad because he made a dubious decision under difficult circumstances and now want their pound of flesh in return. Commenters are routinely routing against a main character on this site (I don't read others) Routing for the two main characters to split up or one to die and still claiming to love a show because it is about the bond between two brothers.

And that is my problem with the show as it's been in the last couple of years. Constantly making the heroes be the bad guys is just wrong IMO. As a fan of the show and having invested so much of my time on it I find it irritating that we as fans fuel this fire with our comments and I do think TPTB pay attention to what fans are interested in and pitting brother against brother gets the big reaction every time. Who is the worse brother has become the big myth arc IMO and everything else is just window dressing. It is all starting to feel toxic to me and I'm sick of it.
I'm confused by this post. You responded to Sharon's saying I want Sam to have the reaction he needs to have in this situation and not one tempered because it was Dean." By asking What I am asking is what happens if that isn't Sam's POV. I'm not sure how Sharon can want Sam's reaction to be Sam's reaction and but not have it be SAM'S REACTION. Sharon didn't say how she wanted Sam to react. She didn't specify actions. She merely stated that she wanted it to be validly Sam's. Do you insist that Sam have Garth's reaction? or Bobby's reaction? or Gad's reaction? or Cas's reaction? How is asking that Sam have a genuine reaction wrong? And although I am not Sharon, I will note that Sam's reaction to finding out about Amy happened off screen during the week that the brothers were not together. He really didn't get to state how it affected him emotionally when Dean lied to him, so perhaps that is one of the things Sharon is concerned about. That Sam will have worked through everything whiled meditating inside his body while Gad runs around being Metatron's hit man.

As to your response to me I assume you were answering this paragraph

Quote:
The fact is the writing and fandom have consistently blamed Sam whenever he expresses ANY unhappiness with Dean. There are some of us who think Sam actually has a right to be whoever and whatever he wants. If he is written as accepting everything Dean did, it might not be what I would do, but I would accept it. God knows, I accepted him grovelling about how Dean was right about Amy. And Benny. And Ruby. And wanting to go back to college. And giving up Amelia. And never buying organic fruit again.
Obviously I did not make myself clear enough. I stated all the times when Sam's reactions were not what I was hoping for and noted that I accepted them even though they weren't what I wanted for the character. I didn't mention Dean controlling Sam. In fact, I pasted my ENTIRE post into Word and searched, the word CONTROL appears nowhere in my response. If Sam does what you advocate and immediately forgives and accepts Dean's actions, I will not be thrilled, but considering he has always forgiven quickly I will also not call it OOC. I apologize that my post was not clear in it's intentions.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-11 10:30
Quoting Prix68:
Sharon -" I want Sam to have the reaction he needs to have in this situation and not one tempered because it was Dean." That is your POV and you certainly have a right to it. What I am asking is what happens if that isn't Sam's POV. Will we then have nonstop complaints that Sam is being written OOC or that TPTB have ruined Sam's character like last season?
.

I just want Sam to have his reaction and not people trying to claim it is my reaction I want. His reaction for good , ill , fair , unfair but Sam to have the reaction he needs in this situation.

I do not think I am being wrong or trying to want my feelings imposed on the situation , which could not happen anyway . I just want Sam's pov on what has been done to him .
In a ideal world the brothers would be all for one and one for all but this is not what is happening on the show and there is no going back from what Gadreel's possession has done to 3 people .Sam , Dean and Kevin .
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-11 10:30
Quote:
Sharon -" I want Sam to have the reaction he needs to have in this situation and not one tempered because it was Dean." That is your POV and you certainly have a right to it. What I am asking is what happens if that isn't Sam's POV. Will we then have nonstop complaints that Sam is being written OOC or that TPTB have ruined Sam's character like last season?
.
I just want Sam to have his reaction and not people trying to claim it is my reaction I want. His reaction for good , ill , fair , unfair but Sam to have the reaction he needs in this situation.

I do not think I am being wrong or trying to want my feelings imposed on the situation , which could not happen anyway . I just want Sam's pov on what has been done to him .
In a ideal world the brothers would be all for one and one for all but this is not what is happening on the show and there is no going back from what Gadreel's possession has done to 3 people .Sam , Dean and Kevin .
elise
# elise 2013-12-11 10:44
Quoting percysowner:
Have you ever considered that he would have said okay and all us unreasonable posters who care about Sam having autonomy over his body would have had been okay with the choice? Because I'm feeling incredibly jumped on with the assumption that I can't want Sam to choose for himself and react for himself. Posters are telling me flat out that Sam would choose wrongly (i.e. not what Dean wants) and therefore I should be glad that Dean let him be metaphorically raped. I mean Sam couldn't be brought back from the edge of death and ACTUALLY DECIDE what he wanted. ONLY DEAN got that call.


Welp, so now Dean is a "metaphorical rapist" as well. I guess just add that to the list of things the writers have had Dean to do Sam to fill the villain role.

Although I do remember Dean being called a rapist before when he returned Sam's soul. So now yet again, Dean is being referred to as a rapist by some. Yeah I guess the show is really pushing Dean into the villain role. Ah well.

To me, looking from the show's standpoint, Sam's "choice" wasn't actually a choice any more than Dean's choice wasn't actually a choice. The writers placed Sam in a situation that would require Dean to do something very, very bad in order to save him. As the writers have done to the brothers before. It's a pattern with this show. It's what they do.

But to the point, Sam's own conflicted feelings (i.e. his POV) WERE shown throughout 9.1 as he manifested Dean - the part of his subconscious who fought to keep him alive, and Bobby - the part of his subconscious who told him it was time to go. It seems Sam was resolved to the fact that he was going to die... but then "Dean" appeared with a plan! And Sam DID agree to it.

Of course Sam didn't know the specific details of Dean's plan, he just simply asked, "what do I do?".

Dean: "You got to let me help."
Sam: "Yes."

Sam's choice was YES. He wanted Dean's help. However, I don't think if Sam choose to say no, that it should be viewed as Sam choosing "wrongly." But then again, the writers would NEVER have had Sam say no because that would mean Sam is dead. And of course the writers can't have that, they need both brothers alive for the story they want to tell.

But it really would have been out of character (IMO) if Dean didn't fight with everything he had to keep Sam alive and convince Sam to live. Same for Sam with Dean, which is the reason Sam wanted to do the trials in the first place. Sam essentially told Dean that he had the wrong attitude going in because Dean felt that whoever took on the trials would not survive them -- "It's a SUICIDE mission for you". And because he wanted to live, SAM should be the one to do them -- "But I want to survive it. I want to live, and so should you." And that was **SAM'S POV** on the subject.

And, IMO, that's what Dean took away from this entire ordeal when Sam was lying on his deathbed ... SAM WANTS TO LIVE. Whether that's still true or not, well, that's up to the whim of the writers. Maybe the physical effects of the trials caused Sam to have doubts about wanting to live? I don't know. I hope the writers will address this sudden shift in Sam and address this in the 2nd half of the season.

I also hope *metaphorical rapist* Dean will be given the opportunity to redeem himself in the eyes of fans, and the writers will actually take the time to give Dean a storyline where he does FINALLY "learn his lesson" about saving Sam at any cost. But that would require the writers to not place Dean in a situation where that choice has to be made in the first place. I'm not very hopeful that will happen but, maybe the show will surprise me. :-)
elise
# elise 2013-12-11 10:44
Quote:
Have you ever considered that he would have said okay and all us unreasonable posters who care about Sam having autonomy over his body would have had been okay with the choice? Because I'm feeling incredibly jumped on with the assumption that I can't want Sam to choose for himself and react for himself. Posters are telling me flat out that Sam would choose wrongly (i.e. not what Dean wants) and therefore I should be glad that Dean let him be metaphorically raped. I mean Sam couldn't be brought back from the edge of death and ACTUALLY DECIDE what he wanted. ONLY DEAN got that call.
Welp, so now Dean is a "metaphorical rapist" as well. I guess just add that to the list of things the writers have had Dean to do Sam to fill the villain role.

Although I do remember Dean being called a rapist before when he returned Sam's soul. So now yet again, Dean is being referred to as a rapist by some. Yeah I guess the show is really pushing Dean into the villain role. Ah well.

To me, looking from the show's standpoint, Sam's "choice" wasn't actually a choice any more than Dean's choice wasn't actually a choice. The writers placed Sam in a situation that would require Dean to do something very, very bad in order to save him. As the writers have done to the brothers before. It's a pattern with this show. It's what they do.

But to the point, Sam's own conflicted feelings (i.e. his POV) WERE shown throughout 9.1 as he manifested Dean - the part of his subconscious who fought to keep him alive, and Bobby - the part of his subconscious who told him it was time to go. It seems Sam was resolved to the fact that he was going to die... but then "Dean" appeared with a plan! And Sam DID agree to it.

Of course Sam didn't know the specific details of Dean's plan, he just simply asked, "what do I do?".

Dean: "You got to let me help."
Sam: "Yes."

Sam's choice was YES. He wanted Dean's help. However, I don't think if Sam choose to say no, that it should be viewed as Sam choosing "wrongly." But then again, the writers would NEVER have had Sam say no because that would mean Sam is dead. And of course the writers can't have that, they need both brothers alive for the story they want to tell.

But it really would have been out of character (IMO) if Dean didn't fight with everything he had to keep Sam alive and convince Sam to live. Same for Sam with Dean, which is the reason Sam wanted to do the trials in the first place. Sam essentially told Dean that he had the wrong attitude going in because Dean felt that whoever took on the trials would not survive them -- "It's a SUICIDE mission for you". And because he wanted to live, SAM should be the one to do them -- "But I want to survive it. I want to live, and so should you." And that was **SAM'S POV** on the subject.

And, IMO, that's what Dean took away from this entire ordeal when Sam was lying on his deathbed ... SAM WANTS TO LIVE. Whether that's still true or not, well, that's up to the whim of the writers. Maybe the physical effects of the trials caused Sam to have doubts about wanting to live? I don't know. I hope the writers will address this sudden shift in Sam and address this in the 2nd half of the season.

I also hope *metaphorical rapist* Dean will be given the opportunity to redeem himself in the eyes of fans, and the writers will actually take the time to give Dean a storyline where he does FINALLY "learn his lesson" about saving Sam at any cost. But that would require the writers to not place Dean in a situation where that choice has to be made in the first place. I'm not very hopeful that will happen but, maybe the show will surprise me. :-)
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 11:19
Quoting elise:
Quoting percysowner:
I think Dean legitimately BELIEVES he has forgiven Sam every time he says it, but he really isn't capable of letting go.


Yeah, probably not. Just one in a long list of flaws that have consistently been written into Dean's character like him being bossy, overbearing, inconsiderate, quick tempered, narrow minded, etc. And as some here have pointed out, he's very selfish and that's caused him to make many bad decisions about Sam. The writers have been very consistent about that.

It's clear that Dean is the villain this season, IMO. There's no manipulative demon or demon blood addiction influencing his actions, no possession by leviathans or anything of the kind. No, only Dean himself who is totally responsible for his wrong decisions, for allowing Sam to be possessed and for Kevin ending up dead.

So I imagine for many fans, Dean is now completely irredeemable. It would be nice to think the writers have also planned some sort of redemption arc for Dean (like Sam had in S5) so that he could be given the chance to make up for his bad decisions. But if the focus shifts to this angel war then probably not, I don't know.

I do wonder where are souls of deceased humans going if Heaven is closed, or at least that's the impression I get?


I'll never understand thhe 'Dean is unredeemable' thing. Dean will fix the mess with Gadreel( sp?) and save Sam. i personally dont care about all that. All i want - if we are throwing around the remdemption word here - is for Dean to apologize to Sam for taking away his free will, for not trusting him or their brotherhood. Especially when Deaqn was going around all "you me...come whatever."

Dont say it if you dont mean it. But mostly I want the guys to be grown ups about it. If Sam is hurt and feels betrayed...then he has that right. If he understands completley but he can't trust Dean right now...then its his right.

To me its a Brother thing....a family thing. I just dont see Dean needing 'redemption'. But I do see Dean needing to share important information with the people involved. Seek their advice, their input. Its theiir lives and their war too.
amyh
# amyh 2013-12-11 11:19
Quote:
Quote:
I think Dean legitimately BELIEVES he has forgiven Sam every time he says it, but he really isn't capable of letting go.
Yeah, probably not. Just one in a long list of flaws that have consistently been written into Dean's character like him being bossy, overbearing, inconsiderate, quick tempered, narrow minded, etc. And as some here have pointed out, he's very selfish and that's caused him to make many bad decisions about Sam. The writers have been very consistent about that.

It's clear that Dean is the villain this season, IMO. There's no manipulative demon or demon blood addiction influencing his actions, no possession by leviathans or anything of the kind. No, only Dean himself who is totally responsible for his wrong decisions, for allowing Sam to be possessed and for Kevin ending up dead.

So I imagine for many fans, Dean is now completely irredeemable. It would be nice to think the writers have also planned some sort of redemption arc for Dean (like Sam had in S5) so that he could be given the chance to make up for his bad decisions. But if the focus shifts to this angel war then probably not, I don't know.

I do wonder where are souls of deceased humans going if Heaven is closed, or at least that's the impression I get?
I'll never understand thhe 'Dean is unredeemable' thing. Dean will fix the mess with Gadreel( sp?) and save Sam. i personally dont care about all that. All i want - if we are throwing around the remdemption word here - is for Dean to apologize to Sam for taking away his free will, for not trusting him or their brotherhood. Especially when Deaqn was going around all "you me...come whatever."

Dont say it if you dont mean it. But mostly I want the guys to be grown ups about it. If Sam is hurt and feels betrayed...then he has that right. If he understands completley but he can't trust Dean right now...then its his right.

To me its a Brother thing....a family thing. I just dont see Dean needing 'redemption'. But I do see Dean needing to share important information with the people involved. Seek their advice, their input. Its theiir lives and their war too.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-11 11:54
Percysowner - maybe I'm being dense here but how can Sam have a reaction to something Dean did and not have it tempered by WHO Dean is. I took that comment along with other posts of Sharon's to mean that she didn't want Dean to not suffer consequences just because he's Dean.

Maybe in "Bad Boys" when Dean was telling Timmy that sometimes you have to let your loved one go he was regretting his decision to keep Sam alive any way possible. I don't think Gadreel was going to allow Dean to tell Sam about the possession anyway until he was ready.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-12-11 11:54
Percysowner - maybe I'm being dense here but how can Sam have a reaction to something Dean did and not have it tempered by WHO Dean is. I took that comment along with other posts of Sharon's to mean that she didn't want Dean to not suffer consequences just because he's Dean.

Maybe in "Bad Boys" when Dean was telling Timmy that sometimes you have to let your loved one go he was regretting his decision to keep Sam alive any way possible. I don't think Gadreel was going to allow Dean to tell Sam about the possession anyway until he was ready.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2013-12-11 12:27
I can understand and sympathise with every decision Dean has made this season. As I did with Sam in S4 and Cas in S6. Doesn't mean I think they were RIGHT to do it. It just means that I don't think I could have done better in their incredibly difficult situations.

What I am not so keen on is the fact that Dean gets an awful lot of screen-time dedicated to his reasoning and P.O.V. whereas other main characters do not. That is an issue with the writers not with Dean. Dean is a very sympathetic, adorable, messed-up character. So is Sam. I just want as much insight into Sam as we get into Dean's character. That's all. I personally don't know HOW Sam would react cos I am not Sam. I just want him to be able to voice his reaction.

OK, to summarise, I am not asking for Dean to be scapegoated. I just want Sam to have an equal voice and presence in the show. Simple as that.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2013-12-11 12:27
I can understand and sympathise with every decision Dean has made this season. As I did with Sam in S4 and Cas in S6. Doesn't mean I think they were RIGHT to do it. It just means that I don't think I could have done better in their incredibly difficult situations.

What I am not so keen on is the fact that Dean gets an awful lot of screen-time dedicated to his reasoning and P.O.V. whereas other main characters do not. That is an issue with the writers not with Dean. Dean is a very sympathetic, adorable, messed-up character. So is Sam. I just want as much insight into Sam as we get into Dean's character. That's all. I personally don't know HOW Sam would react cos I am not Sam. I just want him to be able to voice his reaction.

OK, to summarise, I am not asking for Dean to be scapegoated. I just want Sam to have an equal voice and presence in the show. Simple as that.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2013-12-11 15:03
I couldn't have said it better Manzanita.

I also have an issue with multiple comments saying that Sam wanted to die. That's not how I interpreted the season opener. Right there at the beginning with "Dean" and "Bobby", Sam said he didn't want to die. He kept asking for a plan, and that was him fighting to live. Over the course of the episode, he came to realize he was in fact dying and finally accepted it.

As far as Sam's reaction to Dean letting him be possessed, we know Sam's history and we heard Dean say that Sam would rather die than letting an angel possess him. So I expect Sam to be angry, hurt and feel betrayed. If he reacts differently, that's ok too, but we need to hear and understand his reasons.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2013-12-11 15:03
I couldn't have said it better Manzanita.

I also have an issue with multiple comments saying that Sam wanted to die. That's not how I interpreted the season opener. Right there at the beginning with "Dean" and "Bobby", Sam said he didn't want to die. He kept asking for a plan, and that was him fighting to live. Over the course of the episode, he came to realize he was in fact dying and finally accepted it.

As far as Sam's reaction to Dean letting him be possessed, we know Sam's history and we heard Dean say that Sam would rather die than letting an angel possess him. So I expect Sam to be angry, hurt and feel betrayed. If he reacts differently, that's ok too, but we need to hear and understand his reasons.
Sunny
# Sunny 2013-12-21 12:05
Quoting percysowner:
Quote:
I do think Dean has finally moved on and forgiven Sam for his past

For me redemption is fixing what you can and changing what led to making the wrong choice, not making a grand gesture to redeem yourself.
This is what Sam does all the time. He makes grand gestures when ever he screws up. Sometimes he apologizes, sometimes he doesn't, and sometimes he semi-apologizes while blaming Dean.

At least Dean owns up to his mistakes, apologizes and tries to fix them. It's not about grand gestures with Dean.
Sunny
# Sunny 2013-12-21 12:05
Quote:
Quote:
I do think Dean has finally moved on and forgiven Sam for his past
For me redemption is fixing what you can and changing what led to making the wrong choice, not making a grand gesture to redeem yourself.
This is what Sam does all the time. He makes grand gestures when ever he screws up. Sometimes he apologizes, sometimes he doesn't, and sometimes he semi-apologizes while blaming Dean.

At least Dean owns up to his mistakes, apologizes and tries to fix them. It's not about grand gestures with Dean.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-21 12:16
Quote:
This is what Sam does all the time. He makes grand gestures when ever he screws up. Sometimes he apologizes, sometimes he doesn't, and sometimes he semi-apologizes while blaming Dean.
Sam stops drinking demon blood, follows Dean all season five even when Dean treats him like dirt and can't forgive him. Believes in Dean totally in Point of No Return, all of which are changing his behavior from season four. Yes, jumping into the Cage was a grand gesture, but it was the only way to FIX what he broke when he let Lucifer out.

Dean says he lets Sam go and views him as a grown up but constantly second guesses Sam's choices. He gives everyone forgiveness on all sins past, present and future and then continues to blame Sam for going to college, the admittedly HUGE mistake with Ruby, and daring to come back soulless. Dean may be a loving brother, but he often treats Sam badly, at least as badly if not more badly than Sam treats him, IMHO.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-21 12:16
Quote:
This is what Sam does all the time. He makes grand gestures when ever he screws up. Sometimes he apologizes, sometimes he doesn't, and sometimes he semi-apologizes while blaming Dean.
Sam stops drinking demon blood, follows Dean all season five even when Dean treats him like dirt and can't forgive him. Believes in Dean totally in Point of No Return, all of which are changing his behavior from season four. Yes, jumping into the Cage was a grand gesture, but it was the only way to FIX what he broke when he let Lucifer out.

Dean says he lets Sam go and views him as a grown up but constantly second guesses Sam's choices. He gives everyone forgiveness on all sins past, present and future and then continues to blame Sam for going to college, the admittedly HUGE mistake with Ruby, and daring to come back soulless. Dean may be a loving brother, but he often treats Sam badly, at least as badly if not more badly than Sam treats him, IMHO.
elise
# elise 2013-12-24 10:53
Quoting percysowner:
Dean may be a loving brother, but he often treats Sam badly, at least as badly if not more badly than Sam treats him, IMHO.


I wonder why this is the case? Since Dean treating Sam so "badly" is so apparent, the writers obviously want Dean to be presented as the "bad" brother. I wonder if the writers will ever give Dean the opportunity to redeem himself and make it up to Sam for how badly he's treated him?

Or maybe the writers don't care that Dean is presented as the bad brother?
elise
# elise 2013-12-24 10:53
Quote:
Dean may be a loving brother, but he often treats Sam badly, at least as badly if not more badly than Sam treats him, IMHO.
I wonder why this is the case? Since Dean treating Sam so "badly" is so apparent, the writers obviously want Dean to be presented as the "bad" brother. I wonder if the writers will ever give Dean the opportunity to redeem himself and make it up to Sam for how badly he's treated him?

Or maybe the writers don't care that Dean is presented as the bad brother?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-24 11:36
Quoting elise:
Quoting percysowner:
Dean may be a loving brother, but he often treats Sam badly, at least as badly if not more badly than Sam treats him, IMHO.


I wonder why this is the case? Since Dean treating Sam so "badly" is so apparent, the writers obviously want Dean to be presented as the "bad" brother. I wonder if the writers will ever give Dean the opportunity to redeem himself and make it up to Sam for how badly he's treated him?

Or maybe the writers don't care that Dean is presented as the bad brother?


Well, I think it's overreaching to simply describe EITHER Sam or Dean as "bad" brothers. They have a complex relationship that has been shaped by being raised by an emotionally and possibly abusive father, who was the only example they had for how to parent. Each has done things that hurt the other and my post was reflecting my belief that Dean the saintly brother is no more true than Sam the evil uncaring brother (both fandom constructs). The alternative to demonizing either Sam or Dean is to view them as flawed people.

I am assuming the fact that you put Dean treating Sam badly in quotation marks means you don't believe Dean has any fault in the brotherhood, which is not an unusual opinion, and is possibly a majority opinion on the Internet. If this is true, I really am not up for a discussion this close to Christmas. If I am wrong about your statement I am more than willing to expand on my comments. In any case, the saying that one brother treats the other badly at times is hardly a blanket statement that one brother is the bad brother and one is the good brother. I actually think that the unnecessary dichotomy of good brother versus bad brother is a problem within the fandom.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-24 11:36
Quote:
Quote:
Dean may be a loving brother, but he often treats Sam badly, at least as badly if not more badly than Sam treats him, IMHO.
I wonder why this is the case? Since Dean treating Sam so "badly" is so apparent, the writers obviously want Dean to be presented as the "bad" brother. I wonder if the writers will ever give Dean the opportunity to redeem himself and make it up to Sam for how badly he's treated him?

Or maybe the writers don't care that Dean is presented as the bad brother?
Well, I think it's overreaching to simply describe EITHER Sam or Dean as "bad" brothers. They have a complex relationship that has been shaped by being raised by an emotionally and possibly abusive father, who was the only example they had for how to parent. Each has done things that hurt the other and my post was reflecting my belief that Dean the saintly brother is no more true than Sam the evil uncaring brother (both fandom constructs). The alternative to demonizing either Sam or Dean is to view them as flawed people.

I am assuming the fact that you put Dean treating Sam badly in quotation marks means you don't believe Dean has any fault in the brotherhood, which is not an unusual opinion, and is possibly a majority opinion on the Internet. If this is true, I really am not up for a discussion this close to Christmas. If I am wrong about your statement I am more than willing to expand on my comments. In any case, the saying that one brother treats the other badly at times is hardly a blanket statement that one brother is the bad brother and one is the good brother. I actually think that the unnecessary dichotomy of good brother versus bad brother is a problem within the fandom.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-24 11:38
Quoting elise:
Quoting percysowner:
Dean may be a loving brother, but he often treats Sam badly, at least as badly if not more badly than Sam treats him, IMHO.


I wonder why this is the case? Since Dean treating Sam so "badly" is so apparent, the writers obviously want Dean to be presented as the "bad" brother. I wonder if the writers will ever give Dean the opportunity to redeem himself and make it up to Sam for how badly he's treated him?

Or maybe the writers don't care that Dean is presented as the bad brother?

Oh they care alright otherwise he would not get the insight to explain his action's and thoughts so at least wether you agree or not , you understand where Dean is coming from.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-12-24 11:38
Quote:
Quote:
Dean may be a loving brother, but he often treats Sam badly, at least as badly if not more badly than Sam treats him, IMHO.
I wonder why this is the case? Since Dean treating Sam so "badly" is so apparent, the writers obviously want Dean to be presented as the "bad" brother. I wonder if the writers will ever give Dean the opportunity to redeem himself and make it up to Sam for how badly he's treated him?

Or maybe the writers don't care that Dean is presented as the bad brother?
Oh they care alright otherwise he would not get the insight to explain his action's and thoughts so at least wether you agree or not , you understand where Dean is coming from.
leah d
# leah d 2013-12-24 18:08
Quoting percysowner:
"Well, I think it's overreaching to simply describe EITHER Sam or Dean as "bad" brothers. They have a complex relationship that has been shaped by being raised by an emotionally and possibly abusive father, who was the only example they had for how to parent. Each has done things that hurt the other and my post was reflecting my belief that Dean the saintly brother is no more true than Sam the evil uncaring brother (both fandom constructs). The alternative to demonizing either Sam or Dean is to view them as flawed people.

I am assuming the fact that you put Dean treating Sam badly in quotation marks means you don't believe Dean has any fault in the brotherhood, which is not an unusual opinion, and is possibly a majority opinion on the Internet. If this is true, I really am not up for a discussion this close to Christmas. If I am wrong about your statement I am more than willing to expand on my comments. In any case, the saying that one brother treats the other badly at times is hardly a blanket statement that one brother is the bad brother and one is the good brother. I actually think that the unnecessary dichotomy of good brother versus bad brother is a problem within the fandom."

I agree with this post percysowner. Thanks. Have a good Christmas.
leah d
# leah d 2013-12-24 18:08
Quoting percysowner:
"Well, I think it's overreaching to simply describe EITHER Sam or Dean as "bad" brothers. They have a complex relationship that has been shaped by being raised by an emotionally and possibly abusive father, who was the only example they had for how to parent. Each has done things that hurt the other and my post was reflecting my belief that Dean the saintly brother is no more true than Sam the evil uncaring brother (both fandom constructs). The alternative to demonizing either Sam or Dean is to view them as flawed people.

I am assuming the fact that you put Dean treating Sam badly in quotation marks means you don't believe Dean has any fault in the brotherhood, which is not an unusual opinion, and is possibly a majority opinion on the Internet. If this is true, I really am not up for a discussion this close to Christmas. If I am wrong about your statement I am more than willing to expand on my comments. In any case, the saying that one brother treats the other badly at times is hardly a blanket statement that one brother is the bad brother and one is the good brother. I actually think that the unnecessary dichotomy of good brother versus bad brother is a problem within the fandom."

I agree with this post percysowner. Thanks. Have a good Christmas.
elise
# elise 2013-12-24 22:01
Quoting percysowner:
I am assuming the fact that you put Dean treating Sam badly in quotation marks means you don't believe Dean has any fault in the brotherhood, which is not an unusual opinion, and is possibly a majority opinion on the Internet. If this is true, I really am not up for a discussion this close to Christmas. If I am wrong about your statement I am more than willing to expand on my comments.


You are quite wrong in your assumption. I was merely quoting your own words by using quotation marks. I find Dean is written with the most flaws of any of our protagonist characters. So I think it's quite inappropriate of you to put words in my mouth.

Quote:
In any case, the saying that one brother treats the other badly at times is hardly a blanket statement that one brother is the bad brother and one is the good brother. I actually think that the unnecessary dichotomy of good brother versus bad brother is a problem within the fandom.
Well, fandom politics aside, you did imply that Dean is written as treating Sam worse than Sam has treated Dean. I agree this seems to be what the writers intend. IMO this is because Sam is actually the main protagonist of the story, while Dean is being written more and more as the antagonist, as someone who makes poor decisions that harm his brother, even villainous in intent -- metaphorically allowing Sam to be RAPED -- as you said previously.

As someone who loves both brothers, I think this treatment of one brother as the one who treats the other in a worse way, and especially in the context of rape, is very problematic. IMO.
elise
# elise 2013-12-24 22:01
Quote:
I am assuming the fact that you put Dean treating Sam badly in quotation marks means you don't believe Dean has any fault in the brotherhood, which is not an unusual opinion, and is possibly a majority opinion on the Internet. If this is true, I really am not up for a discussion this close to Christmas. If I am wrong about your statement I am more than willing to expand on my comments.
You are quite wrong in your assumption. I was merely quoting your own words by using quotation marks. I find Dean is written with the most flaws of any of our protagonist characters. So I think it's quite inappropriate of you to put words in my mouth.

Quote:
In any case, the saying that one brother treats the other badly at times is hardly a blanket statement that one brother is the bad brother and one is the good brother. I actually think that the unnecessary dichotomy of good brother versus bad brother is a problem within the fandom.
Well, fandom politics aside, you did imply that Dean is written as treating Sam worse than Sam has treated Dean. I agree this seems to be what the writers intend. IMO this is because Sam is actually the main protagonist of the story, while Dean is being written more and more as the antagonist, as someone who makes poor decisions that harm his brother, even villainous in intent -- metaphorically allowing Sam to be RAPED -- as you said previously.

As someone who loves both brothers, I think this treatment of one brother as the one who treats the other in a worse way, and especially in the context of rape, is very problematic. IMO.
elise
# elise 2013-12-24 22:49
Quoting Sharon:
Oh they care alright otherwise he would not get the insight to explain his action's and thoughts so at least wether you agree or not , you understand where Dean is coming from.


Agree or disagree with their reason, I have always understood where BOTH brothers were coming from in regards to their actions toward each other. Sometimes the reveal wasn't immediate, but eventually their underlying emotions behind their actions did come out, IMO.

Of course that doesn't automatically erase the actual poor decision or wrong action that occurred. And obviously some actions are far worse (i.e. Dean allowing angel possession of Sam - or metaphorical rape, if you prefer) than others.
elise
# elise 2013-12-24 22:49
Quote:
Oh they care alright otherwise he would not get the insight to explain his action's and thoughts so at least wether you agree or not , you understand where Dean is coming from.
Agree or disagree with their reason, I have always understood where BOTH brothers were coming from in regards to their actions toward each other. Sometimes the reveal wasn't immediate, but eventually their underlying emotions behind their actions did come out, IMO.

Of course that doesn't automatically erase the actual poor decision or wrong action that occurred. And obviously some actions are far worse (i.e. Dean allowing angel possession of Sam - or metaphorical rape, if you prefer) than others.