So how was the season over all?

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original

dean-thinking

Well it was better than season 9.

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As hard as it might be for some to believe, I was actually kind of looking forward (behind all my cynicism formed by 2 years of Carver) to season 10.

Since S4 (with the arguable exception of S5) the show's has been stuck in the habit of always trying to end the world each season, seemingly without realizing that a good segment of Kripke's run was low key and devoted to more personal challenges. Meaning that when the end of the world arrived, it had all the greater impact. Unlike now where, like drug junkies, each time the world ends (or nearly so) the viewer finds themselves less and less invested even as the threat tries growing.

Thus when season 9 concluded similar to the close of season 2 (bad guy defeated - Dean in trouble soul-wise) I had a glimmer of hope. No world in danger, nothing big, all that was really at stake going into season 10 was the same as it was in season 3: Just a brother. Too often during the most recent seasons have the characters on the show had their selves subsummed by obsession with a plot. Given that S10 had no sign of such plot, dreams danced in my mind of a character-driven season. And as the season went on, even when some hopes were dashed, there often blossomed a new ray of hope that maybe, just maybe, this season could become one of the best post-Kripke ones. But how did the characters do?

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The Hope: Dean's been directionless pretty much since he's got back from purgatory. Once upon a time there was at least a sense that he had a dream, a goal he had should they ever somehow be able to retire. After giving it up in S6, it's been much tougher to say for sure just what Dean Winchester wants out of life. With this season, I hoped that the writers were going to tear him down and rebuild him. Maybe he would want to form a new hunter family like Sam got to have in S6. Or maybe just remember the "saving people" part of the family business.

The Reality: The show runners apparently wanted Dean to have a struggle between the dark and the light. The problem is that they've blurred his actions and motivations so much in the previous years, the difference between "Dean with Mark" and "Dean without Mark" seemed an exercise suitable only for academics. There seemed to be a brief moment in the beginning where Dean decided he needed to act the saint: abstaining for bad food and badder girls, but that fell by the wayside before the midseason break without any real evidence that reverting to junk food was going to demonize him. We never even had a sign that he wanted to be saved, with him never bothering to try and sit out a fight or ask Sam to "take the burden" from him. By season's end, we still have no idea who Dean really is save for the echoes of his earlier season actions nor that he had any real struggle with the desires of his spirit vs the desires of the Mark.

Best Moment: Dean and Crowley, in the bar, with the cowboy hats.

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The Hope: Since the beginning Sam has been the driving force of the show. First as a MacGuffin, then as a man on a mission. S7 tried mixing this up with Dean on the mission and Sam just trying to survive (and then there's 1st half of S8 where Sam... does nothing) but in general, Sam has been either the source of the mission or the one on a mission. With Dean "lost" at the end of S9, it seemed like Sam was going to finally get a mix of his "save bro" mission he had in S3, and the "need help" mission Dean had in pre-S1. Surprisingly, Sam has never been on the end of "miss him - go get" of the relationship duo (S6? no soul, S8? stupid dog) except between S3 and S4 so this was a chance for the audience to actually see Sam play the role of early SPN Dean: "I miss my family." With the efforts to save Dean, this would also be a great set up for Sam to finally embark on the journey the show's been teasing us with: Becoming and rebuilding the Men of Letters. Because while a lot can be said about the MoL canon headaches, it is nonetheless a concept hard to hate because it seems so perfect for the man Sam has always had a hint at being. This was a chance for him to return to the brains he once had.

The Reality: There was a semblance of a character there. Rather than forcing himself into the leadership role Dean needed him to be in, Sam just meandered as the plot needed. Most obvious example? Him recruiting Rowena when there's still no logical explanation for how he did that. Then his "let's keep more secrets" actions towards season's close came off as the attitude of a foolish child who has learned nothing (remember how bad secrets got last year for you guys?) rather than that of a desperate man at the end of his rope. Had we seen repeated tension between the boys throughout the season of Dean constantly stymieing Sam's efforts, then it would at least be understandable (and no, Dean going "don't bother" does not count as stymieing). Hell we never got an acknowledgment from him who used to be known as the more compassionate brother that maybe their "saving people" should include restoring Crowley's humanity.

Best Moment: With Dean in the car after Dean's anti-aging shenanigans.

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The Hope: I confess, I'm not too jealous of the SPN show writers. Castiel has long been something of a white elephant to them - too popular to get rid off, yet can easily break stories that he's involved in. So with S9, and him made mortal, it seemed like an obvious fix! Let him learn life from the Winchesters as he trains to become something of a hunter with an angel/demon specialty. But then he got grace back. Oh but it's making him sick! Ok (I thought), maybe that was just to clean up Metatron's mess, now they'll take this bad grace out of him and let him rejoin the show in a new, mortal capacity. They even brought back his sorta-daughter to give him that human connection! He could become the new Bobby now. Or maybe make Sam, Bobby and let Dean & Cas hunt around. Lots of possibilities! Let's take this narrative thread and go with it! Find something, ANYTHING to do with this guy!

The Reality: Instead of actually taking time to FIX the angelic millstone hanging around the show's neck, they doubled down on it, leading to cringing moments such as Charlie dying and staying dead when a fallen angel revived her from death JUST. LAST. SEASON! The confirmation that Cas can, in fact, still mind-meld with people even after the S8 cataclysm (which makes episode 9.10 now seem really, REALLY silly). Yet some of the best episodes of the season were ones where Castiel participated (and not in any manner that required him to be specifically angelic) and angel-shenanigans were NOT involved. How in the world they can keep having the solution to a problem like Castiel slap them repeatedly in the face and yet not apply it is a baffling mystery to me.

Best Moment: Less him but the confirmation (or is it?) that Jimmy did get his afterlife with his beloved wife. It's hard to think of a family on this show that has been screwed as bad as the Novaks had been, so nice to see SOMEONE get a happy ending.

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I was thinking about splitting these two up but the more I wrote this in my head, the more I realized they were overlapping so often it was best to just go ahead and group them together.

The Hope: To be honest, I didn't have any because I had no expectations for Crowley other than for him to be awesome because Mark Sheppard shows up in all the things I love. He had gone an entire season without being fully redeemed (a pretty damnable act by the boys - pun fully intended). Near the end of last season his boy had been brought to the future and sent to the winds and this season his mother had arrived. As the season went on I had some hope that maybe Rowena and Gavin would play the roles of devil/angel (respectively) on Crowley's shoulders. Heck with Dean possessing the Mark and demonized at the end of S9, part of me wondered if we'd see Crowley cross the line fully into humanity and join Sam in a race to stop Dean, the new King of Hell.

The Reality: tumblr_mb4g9ctxKu1rziwwco1_250

I'm not sure what more can be said other than ultimately nothing was really done with Crowley and his family that couldn't have been done with another witch. Especially when they revealed that some old MoL/Witch war had been raged and the plunder of it had been stored within the bunker; any old random witch would have sufficed (bring back Cordelia and Spike!) as you could have her helping them out in exchange for something locked away. That's certainly nothing against the actors either. Both Mark Sheppard and Ruth Connell are fine talents, but they do have to have something to work with.

Best Moment: Crowley playing darts on a helpless guy.

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So in conclusion, if I had to sum up season 10 it would be "disappointing." It was at least marginally better than S9 given that they abandoned an over arcing plot so there was less to mess up there. I don't know if it would have been the best season ever, but the foundation and raw materials were there for a truly great and memorable one.

Instead we got a season that's probably faded from your mind as you've finished reading this. Maybe next season the show runners will grab the opportunities presented to them.

(gifs gratefully stolen from best SPN gif site)

Comments  

NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-06-13 22:58
I have been waiting for months......for you. This topic???? tehehe
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-06-14 05:07
My hope: S11 will be amazing! The Darkness will be an entertaining threat and both boys will be in the limelight (and not sidelined).

My realism: Start off amazing then quickly sink faster than a rock in the sea. The low budget will fail to make the Darkness amazing with Carver and his team of writers effing it up again.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-06-15 16:59
Low budget isn't a killer. If anything it could be used to make the season creepier, more terrifying. In some ways I liked the Leviathans more with a trimmed budget since it meant they had to be pulled back, and they became more menacing, more terrifying if you think about it.

Dr Who, Star Trek, and many other shows have proved you can do good storytelling cheap, and even big stakes, but it takes some effort to pull it off...
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-06-14 12:12
Great post. Love the GIFS. Your description 'the foundation and raw materials were there for a truly great and memorable one' is so apt and what was the most heart breaking thing about this season. Prime opportunity squandered. I was hoping for excellence and what we got was good. I can't even say great at this point. Maybe on my annual complete season rewatch when the DVDs for Ten come out in Sept(?), with the benefit of uninterrupted, commercial free to see if it holds together more then... the seasons usually do. But even now rewatching thru my DVR I still find that once that third episode plays I can't get back into the flow of the storyline. Its almost as if the first three episodes belonged to another show entirely. Then we start back up with Fan Fav Kate!¡! - said nobody, ever - followed up by Fan Fiction. After that I kept thinking Show would start playing up the desperation of the MOC for both Dean and Sam and we got, well - nothing. Well not nothing. There were the great episodes like The Executioners Song or The Hunter Games or Inside Man or the last three or four but we also got filler and more teenagers than you could shake a Taylor Swift CD at. And fillers fine, but move the story along will ya? P-a-c-i-n-g Carver! Learn it, Live it, Love it. And we had teases regarding Dean and the MOC, hints and then other promising storylines left in the dust. And please can anybody tell me what the Hell was the point of "The Big Bad Coven" if there wasn't to ever be a "Big Bad Coven" shown? We're the Stynes supposed to be a replacement? This entire season was a whole lot of sizzle and no steak. The other thing I noticed and I don't know why it stuck out so much to me this year were the parallels, the constant parallels.. Can they even write one episode without them. I don't remember earlier seasons having been so on the nose. SNs audience is fairly intelligent, we can figure out what's going on without the obvious anvils crashing down upon us on a constant basis. I dunno. I still love this show and will be with it until the end but you can count me in as one of the more cynical folk when it comes to Season 11. Oh, I have no doubt the first several (three, four?) episodes will be amazing and then they will pull the proverbial rug from beneath our feet. "Year of the Deanmon" indeed. I guess that sounded a lot better marketing wise than "Three Episodes of the Deanmon"
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-14 18:00
I wonder how long before the season started did the CW know the demon Dean story was going to be shortened due to Jared's injury. I wonder if they would have had time to change the promo spots for the upcoming season. I think that might have made a difference to the season's perception if the fans hadn't anticipated a different story line for S10.
For the most part the season worked for me. There were definitely pacing problems but as I am watching the season as a whole uninterrupted it is working much better. For me personally binge watching is how I watched the show when I got hooked. I watched S1-6 without commercials and hiatus' and mini breaks. Watching live is very frustrating for a binge watcher.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-06-14 19:26
I still think that's crap. Jensen and Bob Singer both said that the DemonDean storyline was never meant to go more than three episodes. So say it's true that DemonDeans storyline was meant to last longer and it was due to Jareds injury and not the "Tribute to the Fans" - then why couldn't they have just written that the cure didn't work completely and that the demon was dormant? They certainly teased about that enough to make one think that they were reserving it as an option. Or truly go there, somewhere, Hell anywhere with the MOC!!! Instead we got Dean insulting, beating or killing and that's when he wasn't on a bender... A slightly elevated version of another Tuesday night for regular Dean. The more off the rails they take Dean the more spinning out of control they could have taken Sam. Instead we got another season of missed opportunities. No, missed means you had to have actually have tried... If I sound a little bitter, I am. The Show is in its later years, a great storyline like this for Jensen to play out of the box doesn't come around often and when it finally does? This is what they choose to do with it. Fool me once... so big things might be afoot for Season 11 but going by Shows SOP? You can bet the truly interesting part will be over by the fourth episode. I'm tired of getting good or even mildly great when Show is capable and has proven it time and again of so very much more.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-14 21:23
Do you think you could have possibly started your post off in a more insulting way? I am only commenting what I think might have happened according to a writer (not a producer or an actor) has said about the demon Dean story line. You can take or leave it.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-06-15 11:10
Hey everybody! Don't be insulting unless you go so over the top it's silly & funny. :P

I think had they meant for it to be longer and Jared got injured, they could have reversed things (let Sam be the one in bed resting, Castiel the active one) and see what exciting new ideas flowed. (heck can you imagine if like... Cas's bad grace could have been removed and used to partially fix Dean? talk about fuel for shippers!) Or what if Sam learned about Cole and manipulated that guy to find Dean instead of that cheating schlub? Like SFDebris has pointed out several times (mostly recently in his Time of the Doctor ("http://sfdebr is.com/videos/d octorwho/s33sp. php") review) taking a disadvantage and working around it can end up creating great art (see also: Jaws). Oh the season that might have been...
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-15 12:40
Again this is all my own speculation. I don't know anything for a fact. Who knows maybe after the first episode that was filmed (Soul Survivor) Jared was good to go. He looked frail and pale to me the whole season but again that is my own opinion. It was my own speculation that maybe Jared's injury affected the first half of the season but then again maybe the story was supposed to go the way it did. Questions for the writers at SDCC I think.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-06-15 13:56
Sorry I wanted to respond last night and I was having posting issues.

I didnt mean for you to take my post as insulting. That comment wasn't to you or at you, it was that I don't necessaily believe what we are being told by TPTB. For the various reasons I stated. I've heard the same thing you did. I have no doubt Jareds injury affected the show in some ways and I'm sure they had to work around him due to it. Why that has to result in Sam being tied up... rather than the writers coming up with more creative (less lazy and predictable) ways is beyond me. The way I see it? They had no intention of truly ever taking Dean dark or they would've carried it thru with MOC/DemonDean.

Anyway, apologies for any ruffled feathers, it wasn't intentional. Mark it all down to a frustrated rant with foolish wording on my part. ;)
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-06-16 17:33
I understood what you meant.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-06-16 17:42
Thank you.
E
# E 2015-06-15 18:03
I don't think blaming Jared for the failure of the writers is very fair.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-15 18:39
Do you seriously think that is what I am doing? Thank you, I am done with these insulting posts.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-06-16 00:29
So does that mean my apology wasn't accepted? If no, I'm sorry to hear that. I truly meant no offense.
E
# E 2015-06-16 07:33
I"m sorry Cheryl. The first line of your post seemed to be putting the blame for the failure of the DD story onto Jared's injury. That's how it came across to me anyway. If that wasn't your intention then I apologize.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-16 09:37
Thank you for your apology. I (as an avid Jared/Sam fan) would never blame Jared for the plot choices of the writers. All I was saying is that according to Robbie Thompson the story had to be altered to accommodate Jared's injury. It also sounded like no blame was put on Jared from anyone connected with the show. Whether the demon Dean story succeeded or failed had nothing to do with Jared. It had everything to do with each individual fan. If it worked or didn't work is up to the viewer. But it did look like they had to change course a little to incorporate an injured player. And as it turned out the workload was almost too much for Jared in the end.
Probably what affected the show more than anything was losing a writer midway through the season.
Mae
# Mae 2015-06-16 14:08
I saw absolutely nothing in any of your posts that indicated you thought Jared was to blame for the way the season played out. Just speculation as to why things may have been rearranged due to concern for one of their actors. This is another example of people being quick to read Sam/Jared blame into comments that are simply not there. It makes it difficult to post here sometimes.
Alice
# Alice 2015-06-16 14:30
Yeah, I'm not sure what kind of misunderstandin gs are going on here, but I think some people are working off of information I said in another, obscure place somewhere on this site. So, how about I set the record straight and everyone go from there?

I was at the Supernatural academic conference at DePaul last month (reports coming on that very soon, it was ill timed with the end of the season). Robbie Thompson was the guest speaker and I got to speak with him a bit casually as well. He told us that the plans were Demon Dean would have possibly gone until the 200th episode, with Sam pulling him back then, but Jared's injury changed how they approached that first part of the season. The initial idea shifted to the Supernatural high school musical for the 200th. Now, remember, this was all when the season was being initially plotted, so ideas were being pitched all over the place. I don't think we'll know for sure how far ahead they were with plans before they had to change things, but Jared's injury did have an impact on the stories they pursued. This comes from a known source, not me speculating.

Please everyone, try to be civil. This is supposed to be fun. We debate and discuss because it's fun. Try not to be too over-sensitive.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-06-16 14:40
I don't know how, but sometimes, Alice, I wish we could do a kind of roundtable where I make an educated guess as to what's going on behind the scenes based on what's shown, and then you spill out how right/wrong I was with the background info. :D
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-06-17 11:28
Sometimes???
E
# E 2015-06-15 18:02
With a catch phrase like "year of the Deanmon" it was bound to fail.
Vince
# Vince 2015-06-14 17:15
I disagree with the statement that the show has always tried to "end the world" each season, well season 6 had Raphael wanting restart the Apocalypse and 7 had the Leviathans wanting to turn the world into one big farm. But with season 8, it had the Winchester being proactive in trying to close up Hell, and I'd argue season 9 was more personal having the angel/Hell stuff in the background and tying to Sam and Dean on a more personal level, and 10 was to me most like season 1; simple MotW/simple mytharc.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-06-14 19:07
Yeah but for Season 9 they touted that the "Angels they're falling!!!" was going to be a landscape changer!!! Big things afoot!!! Warring factions of angels, blah, blah, blah... Yeah. Not so much. The only landscape change was the big pretty flares in the sky as each angel plummeted to earth... When you kill one of your supposed "Big Bad Angel Leaders" offscreen? So there was the promise of, if not the end of the world, then a very different version of it. They (the show/TPTB) just didn't live up to their own hype for that one.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-06-15 12:14
And then there's... whatever Metatron was supposed to be up to. I think it may have been world changing but who can say?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-06-15 14:02
True.
JJA
# JJA 2015-06-15 16:56
The "angels are falling" story wasn't entirely disregarded. It was addressed in: "I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here," "I'm No Angel," "Heaven Can't Wait," "Holy Terror," "Captives," "King of the Damned," "Stairway To Heaven," and the season 9 finale.

But I do agree that it should have been a bigger part of season 9, and even season 10.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-06-27 05:38
Having a story addressed and actually doing something with that story line are two different things. The angels falling may have been mentioned in numerous episodes, but there was no build up, no expansion, basically the story did not develop or go anywhere so it ended up being a fail. I can barely remember it and I am not sure what the point of it was supposed to be. And talk about unresolved! Are the souls still in the veil or not? That little tidbit has never been answered. And what about Hannah and Cas's mission to return the rogues to heaven? Are they still floating about? Are there still rogues on earth? We don't know because the whole idea was dropped.
JJA
# JJA 2015-06-15 13:03
Why can't they get rid of Castiel? There have been so many good characters on Supernatural over the years who were killed-off prematurely (s.a. Rufus, Ellen, Abaddon, Henry, Benny, Kevin, the Campbell family, etc.), yet for some reason we can't get rid of is Castiel. Why? Where does this dumb idea come from that Misha Collins can't be released from Supernatural? Is it just because of his Twitter antics?

Of course Castiel can be killed-off once and for all. The show will go on just fine without him.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-06-15 14:07
Hey leave Feathers alone! It's not Mishas fault the writers are incapable of coming up with a decent storyline for him! I for one (and I am in no way a Destiel fan) would like to see more interactions between Cas and the brothers, and Dean in particular. You know, like the old days. Destiel fans are going to see what they want regardless so I say bring back TFW for real.
JJA
# JJA 2015-06-15 16:18
I appreciate your love for Castiel, but there are plenty of things I would have loved to have seen on Supernatural that never happened.

For example, I would have loved to have seen more with Kevin. That character had all sorts of potential, but he was killed off for dramatic effect. Likewise, the same could be said for Benny. Vampires (including the Alpha Vamp) are still out there, and it would have been great to see Benny interact with them. That never happened, because the writers just didn't care to make it happen. I won't even start on Ellen and Rufus, or the hunger society in general.

So why is Castiel so special? Why must we suffer two seasons worth of pointless Castiel story, when so many other characters were just killed off? My attitude is that if the writers cannot come up with a sustainable storyline for his character, the character should be written off the show.

No offense to Misha the actor. This is about the character, not the actor who plays him.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-06-15 16:54
Why they cant get rid of him is more of a meta reason than story. Basically he is just TOO popular among a large enough segment of the viewing public. Now I don't think this article is entirely accurate ("http://www.da ilydot.com/fand om/supernatural -ratings-spike- queerbaiting/") , but it does put forward a view that I think is close to that of TPTB. Cas is seen as +ratings and whether true or not, he's big enough that they don't feel they can risk those ratings on his being forced out. Right or wrong, the feeling seems to be there.
JJA
# JJA 2015-06-15 19:08
I think you are absolutely right.

That being said, I think the network's logic is totally wrong. Back during season 4, Castiel was credited with a spike in ratings for those episodes he appeared in, but that just doesn't happen anymore. I would also argue that there are plenty of characters in the Supernatural universe that could jack-up the ratings.
eilf
# eilf 2015-06-15 20:14
I have to agree. I don't see why Castiel is any less expendable than ANYONE else on the show. He has been dead fewer times than anyone else (twice?). I wonder is he going to start off next season dead? I doubt it ...

Supernatural: Where being dead has less of an impact on your day than having a mild attack of the flu.

I would like to see another angel (or a demon even) steal Castiel's meatsuit and have him spend an episode as a wave of celestial intent trying to get the attention of Sam and Dean to warn them. They finally work it out because 'Cas' comes up with some pop-culture reference that the real Cas wouldn't get in a million years and have him exorcised. If it were a demon then Cas could spend the end of the episode sulking and 'meditating' (with an internal vision of him sweeping floors and opening windows) to fumigate the demon vibes from the meatsuit.
JJA
# JJA 2015-06-16 12:03
That's a pretty cool idea--another angle or demon stealing Castiel's meatsuit.

Anyway, I think Castiel legitimately died 2 times, and there were 2 other times he may or may not have died: (1) killed by Raphael in the season 4 finale; (2) sacrificed himself in the 100th episode while rescuing Adam; (3) killed by Lucifer in the season 5 finale; and (4) killed by the Leviathan in the season 7 premier.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-06-16 12:09
Killed by reaper/angel in S9, rez'd by Sameel. (though I understand not wanting to count that lol)
eilf
# eilf 2015-06-15 14:08
Quote:
He could become the new Bobby now. Or maybe make Sam, Bobby and let Dean & Cas hunt around. Lots of possibilities! Let's take this narrative thread and go with it! Find something, ANYTHING to do with this guy!
Or let Sam and Cas go be hunters and let Dean go on the voyage of discovery of himself that he said several times this season he wanted to do. :P
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-06-15 17:02
Scene: Sam & Cas are walking down the road towards an imposing house.

Sam: "What do we got?"
Cas: "I thought a poltergeist but there's subtle clues that we're dealing with a very old, very crafty demon. We shouldn't take him lightly."
Sam: "Alright, you lay down a salt line to keep it in, I'll see if I can flush it towards you."

Several paces behind them:

Dean: "Guysssss.... Come ooooonnnn! I promise I'll behave this time. Let me help pleeeeease?"
eilf
# eilf 2015-06-15 18:46
*giggle.* yeah like that. I think cas and Sam should get their fair share of fun and let Dean be the "ditchable prom date" once in a while . remind people that there are three world class fighters in tfw not just one...
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-06-15 16:18
I still kind of like the idea of Cas having to rally the angels to help defeat the Darkness. I like Cas/Misha, but him being killed off certainly wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. But if they're going to keep him around, either make him human or make him more of a kick-ass angel. Wussy Cas is incredibly boring. I loved the (very) few times this year when he acted strong and tough. Having him get his butt kicked by MOC Dean was particularly pathetic. Even Sam lasted longer against Dean in Brothers Keeper, and got a few good shots in.
lala2
# lala2 2015-06-15 19:37
I vote for "kick-@$$" Castiel. Loser Castiel who gets beaten up by humans, can't fly, can't heal ppl, and can't referee btw two woman has GOT TO GO! He is an insult to the Castiel of S4.
eilf
# eilf 2015-06-15 20:08
I am with you except for the refereeing of two women. Any two women who can't do what the hell they like instead of being ordered around by a guy aren't trying hard enough if you ask me.

On the other hand as 2 PEOPLE (ungendered) acting like fools as Rowena and Charlie (in particular) were - Castiel should have knocked their heads together (possibly metaphorically speaking) and obliged them to behave instead of wilting all around the place and calling Sam and allowing Charlie to do the idiotic thing she did by leaving - I would love to have been a fly on the wall watching Castiel (in particular)'s fanbase if he had done that though.

So yeah, maybe I AM with you on all points ....
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-06-16 17:39
I agree. I want warrior angel Cas back. I love the idea of Cas leading the rally of the angels to aid in the battle against the darkness.
BookLady
# BookLady 2015-06-17 21:07
The ideal would be for Cas to be working with the angels and Crowley to be doing the same with the demons (while Rowena and Meratron keep re-appearing as their untrustworthy selves to stir up trouble) in the Great Alliance to battle the Darkness - maybe even bring back the only Archangels that they know are still living and for whom they have a location- Lucifer and Michael - which will make for exciting but sticky situations - while Sam and Dean do battle on Earth and gather intelligence from the MoL, the Judah Iniative, etc. Combine Lord of the Rings alliances and battles with Harry Potterish searches for information and sources of supernatural power. Yes, I know the budget isn't there, but not everything has to be seen. Instead of battles we can always just see the aftermath or hear reports. Anyway, there is a lot of potential to see our main characters in strong and powerful positions, working together or being at odds over the best way to save the world from the Darkness.
BookLady
# BookLady 2015-06-17 21:16
Oh, just another idea - how about the Darkness's arrival blowing open Heaven and Hell? All locations - Heaven, Hell, Purgatory - shaking and rocking and all angelic and demonic powers restored, all monsters and spirits running free, and no appearance of Sam and Dean for the first episode, just Crowley and Cas, trying to figure out what happened? Maybe Sam and Dean appear at the very end, stagger into the bunker and collapse? A two-part episode to start the season?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-17 22:05
I like that. The brothers need to make it a back to the Bunker. But yes complete kaos across the lands.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-06-18 08:34
All that would be cool...

And probably take the sum total money of the entire CW network. ;)

Unless we made the 11th season the anime season... SUPERNATURAL ANIME! DO IT AGAIN!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-06-18 10:02
YellowEyedSam, are you hearing this? I can't wait for your very enthusiastic agreement with Nate's suggestion.
BookLady
# BookLady 2015-06-18 20:07
Okay,no battles. But all filming should be dark and gritty as though a pall has been cast over all of Earth. A general loss of light. An always dreary, overcast feeling. Yes?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-18 20:55
Yes. Maybe this Darkness will take the show back to that dark gritty feel it used to have.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-06-18 21:17
I'd rather the whole episode shows Sam and Dean fighting their way back to the bunker. I always thought it would be cool if there was an episode where the entire time the brothers are battling bad guys, one after the other. So say the Darkness infects people (and they talk in that creepy voice Lucifer used to speak through the dead nun), and the brothers battle one infected person after another, or even groups of them, and they're fighting like a team, having each other's back, and taking turns rescuing each other. And for brief periods they hole up somewhere to rest, and since they know they could be killed at any time, they clear the air about some of the crap that's festered between them for 3 years, and have the mother of all bro-hugs. They finally arrive at the bunker, united as they haven't been in years, and ready to fight and defeat the Darkness. (And then I wake up and they're back to lying to each other, and arguing and blaming each other.)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-06-26 18:24
That would be a dream episode.... if only!
E.
disgruntled ex-viewer
# disgruntled ex-viewer 2015-06-26 16:16
I’m not one of thousands fans of the show, and never been. I just used to belong to millions’ audience who watched the show and enjoyed it. Now I’m one of tenth season’s “viewership drop”. I dropped watching the show not because the show got old, I did it because the authors changed the main concepts of the show. It used to be a beautiful and compelling story about two brothers, who were imperfect and has his own flaws, but who had a lot of good in them, and whose love for each other helped them to find the strength inside themselves, keep themselves human and overcome the circumstances they had found themselves in. And I watched it, and really liked it for the first 7 seasons. Then I watched season 8 and 9, and found the show neither beautiful, nor compelling. It was embarrassing to say the least. The authors tried to turn one hero into “the role model” at the expense of the other. I just couldn’t understand why to make one real hero instead of two as it always was the case. And why to ascribe to the character flaws we know for sure he doesn’t have, which was proven repeatedly previously. Tough for the authors, but they can’t negate the content of the previous seasons, they can’t “change History”, the only thing they can do is show us how these past events are perceived by other characters of the show, and we get other characters thanking only Dean for “saving the world” and blaming only Sam for the events, that triggered the Apocalypse. They didn’t make people reevaluate the past events they only succeeded in rising bewilderment, making the supporting characters look biased and judgmental. The authors of the show didn’t make Dean look the “role model”, they made him look full of self-righteousn ess. The other brother started to look outright insipid and immature. And this contradicts the content of previous seasons in so many ways, that I just felt sick. Certainly, though they can’t change past seasons they can change the future, making Dean a perfect hero, and sidelining Sam and turning him into somebody weak and selfish, and I have been pretty sure for some time that they will. But it will be quite a different story, having nothing common with Supernatural I used to enjoy. It will be one of dozens of low-budgets about a “role model” superhero, which you will forget the next day. That’s why I stopped watching the show after season 9 and I’m unlikely to renew, as I gave up on the show with Carver at the head a year ago.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-06-26 17:07
You have nicely articulated the main reason for my dissatisfaction with the show the past few years. I just hope they correct this before they lose even more viewers.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-06-26 18:30
Yes.... I agree with this. Somewhere along the line the writers decided that the show was about one hero and his bothersome little brother. I am still hanging on hoping that things will get better. I am not sure why I hope that they will, Carver and Co. have made it pretty clear how they view things, and it's not likely to change. Then we have the Big Brass demanding more "hot young chics" and this is the show we now have. I am worried that season 11 will be about THE DARKNESS!!!! and not about the brothers at all.
disgruntled ex-viewer
# disgruntled ex-viewer 2015-06-26 18:58
For 7 seasons I related to both heroes, even when one of them was wrong. In seasons 8 and 9 they wanted me to relate to only one of them. Well, I can't, and don't want to. In fact, they achieved the opposite result, I started to be more sympathetic to a brother who was wronged by the authors of the show, and I never divided them before. They portray the man who decided to jump into Lusifer's cage as selfish, the man who defeated Lucifer by sheer willpower and deep love for his brother as weak and unloving. I just don't buy it. As I understand from the review, Dean wanted to kill his brother, but stopped? Pity. It will be better for Sam to be in Heaven, than to be a guinea pig for Carver's experiments. Sorry, if I'm being evil.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-06-26 19:43
Quote:
They portray the man who decided to jump into Lusifer's cage as selfish, the man who defeated Lucifer by sheer willpower and deep love for his brother as weak and unloving. I just don't buy it.


Once again, I agree completely with what you say. But I'm going to hang in there and hope they bring back the brothers and brotherly relationship that were portrayed so beautifully for 7 years. I'm too invested at this point!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-26 20:42
I never saw Sam portrayed that way ever. The dialog/acting didn't support that at least for me. I know I am in the minority here but I do understand what Carver was trying to do it just wasn't always executed successfully. S10, for me at least was the best of the three seasons under Carver and as I re watch S8 on TNT other than some poorly written episodes (MBFWB) and after the brothers spat I really enjoyed the second half. S9 after the angel possession just fell apart which was unfortunate because the MOC had possibilities. S10 as I watch uninterrupted flows together remarkably well, again for me. Yes there were some poorly written episodes, HACF (I agree with Alice it should have been a comedy) and Paper Moon were tough to get through. Other than that I find that the episodes hold up pretty well. But everyone sees it differently. And no I don't want to see Jared get written off of the show he loves and has devoted 10 years of his life to.
Dan115
# Dan115 2015-06-26 21:20
I completely agree with you Cheryl. I have NEVER seen Sam portrayed as selfish, weak or unloving. Ever. While I can agree with some of the issues of the fans of Sam this is one area that I part ways. I don't understand that perspective and I never will. This show has aways been about 2 heroes to me. Some storylines didn't work for me, many of them in S8 and S9. I thought Sam was shortchanged in many ways by not being given a clearer POV in some episodes. I have also been unhappy at times with the portrayal of Dean these last few years. There were many times he was shown as selfish, self absorbed, and less than a stellar brother. The posts here reflected that. But I never lost sight of who these brothers are during the whole run of the series and will always see both of them as heroes, flawed at times but good good men. As for your last sentence I couldn't agree more. As long as Jared appears to love that show, his co-workers, and be proud of the work he does, more power to him. The choices Jared makes in his life and career are his and his families alone.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-06-26 21:35
Here's a shocker Cheryl, but I actually disagree. :) The first half of season 8 and the second half of season 9 IMO portrayed Sam as weak and/or insufficiently committed to Dean. That's certainly the way some Dean fans have interpreted it! And those seem to be the parts of those seasons that you were less than thrilled with. I did really like the 2nd half of season 8, but that first half continued to be thrown in Sam's face by Dean and by many viewers. Same with the events of the 2nd half of Season 9. Season 10 did show a Sam fully committed to saving Dean, yet Dean CONTINUED to remind him of the Purge statement, lest we viewers forget. On the other hand, like you I definitely don't want Jared written out of the show (although IMO they came close to doing that in the middle of this season). Nothing like an argument about the Carver era to spice up hiatus!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-26 22:18
I don't let the opinions of other fans sway how I view the portrayal of the brothers. As I said it is my own opinion and no one has to see it my way for me to enjoy the show. I have never viewed Sam as weak and pathetic. If some "Dean" fans felt that way well I disagree. Yes there was dialog in the episodes that were meant to remind viewers that don't analyze and agonize over every single word, of a conversation that happened over a year ago that MOC influenced Dean brought up to hurt Sam. Some viewers sometimes need to be brought up to speed. That has happened throughout the series. Some of us have gotten very good at spotting dialog that we didn't like the first time around and resent that it is brought up again. But not everyone (and probably the vast majority) pays attention to the minute detail like hardcore fans do (of which I am one). I don't let it bother me because I don't feel that dialog was meant for me. I remember it very well. Sam said nothing wrong. I can't help it if some fans misinterpreted the lines and resent Sam for their misunderstandin g. If some fans want to use their interpretation to justify how they feel about a character I can't let that bother me. I can't change anyone's mind. I didn't misunderstand it and that is all that matters to me. I have never seen either brother as weak or tyrannical or anything other than hero's.
Yes I was one who was also waiting for Sam's "dark road" to happen. I didn't like all the fillers that seemed to be spinning the seasons wheels. But it did finally get in gear in the last half in a mostly satisfying way.
I caught the show on TNT and binge watched the first 6 seasons. I find watching the show that way really makes the episodes flow much better. No commercials, no breaks. Live viewing is very frustrating and not how I am used to watching the show. So the episodes can sometimes feel disjointed to me. That is why I love coming here and reading the reviews. It helps me process what I just watched. I do appreciate the WFB for that reason.
And statements like writing Jared off the show are trigger comments for me. Can't help it. Can't let it go unchallenged.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-06-27 01:31
I don't let the opinions of other fans sway me, I just point them out because Carver gave lots of ammunition to Sam haters in seasons 8-9 (not that the haters needed any). I wish I were as satisfied as you are with Sam's portrayal the past few years, but to me, binge-watching the show only served to highlight Carver's missteps. I binge-watched the first 8 seasons of the show in about 5 weeks which actually made the beginning of season 8 stick out like a sore thumb because IMO Sam was written so incredibly out of character. Having just watched so many wonderful seasons/episode s of a Sam who was completely devoted to Dean, (and Mystery Spot Sam was even written by Carver!) I was stunned about the whole not looking for Dean plot. It honestly depressed me. It flew in the face of everything I'd just seen and loved about Sam and the brothers' relationship the previous 7 seasons, and I remember reading somewhere (I forget where) that even Jared was somewhat concerned about that story line. And he knows the character better than anyone. Carver had been away from the show for 2 years, so maybe he'd lost sight of the characters. Maybe they could have written that plot in a way that made sense and was understandable and in keeping with Sam's character, but to leave it at "I thought you were dead" and "we had an agreement" was a contradiction of the previous 7 years of Sam's characterizatio n. Thinking Dean was dead certainly never stopped Sam before, and that "agreement" was never articulated in any episode I saw. And having Sam just totally blow off Kevin, who was in Crowley's clutches, and make zero effort to find/help him also came off as selfish, and was diametrically opposed to who Sam has always been. That scene where Dean is playing message after message from an increasingly desperate Kevin while Sam silently eats his chili was brutal. I absolutely hated that scene. These weren't minor details, they were a major plot line of the season. Carver did redeem the season in the second half, which had some of the best brother moments in years, and that made the beginning of the season seem even more like an aberration. I could only conclude that Carver did it to give Dean one recent thing to throw in Sam's face in Sacrifice so that Sam would be willing to die rather than let Dean down again. But that's a pretty poor reason to trash his character. Season 9 was such a muddle that it's not worth rehashing, but I thought they did a big disservice to Sam again by providing almost no POV from him about the possession. Frankly, I think Carver has trashed Dean to some degree as well. He has been unrecognizable as old Dean in many episodes the past two years. I'm hoping Carver is about done with tearing down the brothers' relationship because to me it's been a depressing slog for awhile now. I think the last bro-hug might have been in Sacrifice if you don't count Dean collapsing in Sam's arms in ES (which I don't count). That's a loooong time without a hug and to me it's emblematic of the state of their relationship. Seriously, if Sam and Dean are at odds at the start of next season I will be beside myself. Enough is enough. I apologize if I'm coming off as too vehement, but that's because things like the start of season 8 left such a sour taste in my mouth. Sam is my favorite character ever, in my favorite show ever, and I feel that a lot of the current writers just don't get him so they don't do his character justice. I've found that incredibly depressing. The show might not be on too much longer, so for however many episodes remain, I want to have back the brothers that I fell in love with. Brothers Keeper makes me cautiously optimistic that they will be in a better place next year in terms of their relationship. Only 3 months until we find out.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-27 02:32
I can only speak for me. These are the brothers I fell in love with. That has never changed. Whether a storyline works or doesn't isn't going to change that. I can't erase 10 years of love for this show (or 4 years with 6 years crammed into one month) just because I do or don't like a particular episode or part of a season. I have never seen anything that has happened between the brothers that looked like they could never reconcile. Sam never lost his devotion for Dean and even though Dean can be hurt by something that Sam might have done or said that never changed his love for Sam. If the fans can't forgive Sam or Dean for whatever they have said or done it doesn't affect how I feel about them. Never will.
I get it the show doesn't work for you and many others. I hope it gets better.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-06-27 02:53
Speaking for myself this current brothers relationship is not the one I fell in love with . Season 9 opened up to many issues for me that left more of a uncomfortable view than a deep appreciation of their bond ,the writing and fandom attitudes just compounded the problem.

I just could not watch season 10 bar a tiny few episodes because of it and despite the contrived finale and the 'darkness' I cannot see much changing sadly at least in how I look at things.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-27 03:11
I understand.
disgruntled ex-viewer
# disgruntled ex-viewer 2015-06-27 02:52
You beautifully expressed my vision of the season and you gave me some angles to think over, as you definitely understand the show better. I think I will read your opinion of season 11 before I decide to renew wathcing the show or not.
disgruntled ex-viewer
# disgruntled ex-viewer 2015-06-27 02:18
I never said that Sam is weak, in fact I think the opposite, I only said they are trying to portray him so. But wait, until I comment on Dean's portrayal by Carver :). Dean had never been perfect, and he never was the "Role model", thanks God. And the evident attempts to make him look such, in my opinion killed off the character. What I disliked most in season 8 most, it was not "hitting a dog", that part I can understand and can relate, it was the infamous "list of greatest Sammy hits". It was introduced at the beginning, and to drive the idea home repeated at the end. The idea, that Sam always let Dean dowm was also reiterated in the middle of the season in the scene about “better brother”. In my opinion it was just disgusting. It was apparent for me, that this list was introduced exclusively to remind all Sam's "sins" before his brother, to underline how bad Sam really is how many times he "let him down" and to contrast him with Dean who loves him anyway. And that was reiterated in the famous broment scene in the finale, when Sam repeated it once more.
Carver, really? What was that?
1. Consorting with Demon Ruby? Do you think that nobody remembered that Dean sold his soul to a demon?
2. Drinking demon blood? Did Dean forget that he tortured souls in Hell?
3. Breaking the last seal? And what about the first?
4. Sam lost his soul? Did Dean forget where Sam's soul was and what was being done with it at the time?
The initial idea of the show was that both made their mistakes and both atoned for them, not putting blame on the one, to elevate the other.
I really loved the character of Dean exactly up to this point. Dean of the first 7 seasons would never blame Sam for any of that. Just imagine Dean of the first 7 seasons nursing his grievances while Sam was in Lucifer's cage. Can you do that? Because I can't. But I can imagine him blaming himself, that I can do. But it never sounded, because the authors of the show want us to forget about some little details of Dean's biography, to make him look perfect. The accusation of losing the soul looks ridiculous. But what else can Sam be blamed for? There was nothing else. OK, the authors of the show wanted Sam to look bad, but at the result they made Dean look appalling. It was not the Dean I loved, they killed him off, up ahead it was Mr. Role Model, unforgiving, self-righteous and pompous. Congratulations , guys.
OK, let go on to season 9. At first we were shown Bad Boys episode, to underline Dean's selflessness and commitment to his brother, and almost after that we were fed with Sam's speech about Dean's selfishness. Thank you, Carver, that's enough, I got it. You are hinting like a bulldozer. But sometimes enough is too much. Was I supposed to feel pity for Dean? I would have, but you had killed him off, instead we were shown Mr. Role Model. But the problem with Mr. Role Models is that you don't feel pity for them, they are above compassion, they are too perfect for it. I don't remember who was talking about new layers to the character? Well, Mr. Role Model is usually flat and explicit like an ideal Mathematical plane.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-27 02:54
I get it you don't like the show anymore. I hope it gets better for you. Just as with Sam I don't see the portrayal of Dean to be so outrageous either. But again that is my own opinion. We can go back and forth with our own personal interpretations and never see eye to eye. Just because I understood why the story was told the way it was and for the most part it worked for me doesn't mean anyone else has to agree with me. And I will have to say of the people left commenting anymore no one ever agrees with me. I'm ok with that. My own 2 cents for what it is worth (about 2 cents) is that I will never see the brothers as anything but two hero's trying their best to save the world and each other in impossible situations. Sometime they get overwhelmed by the circumstances they find themselves in and lose faith in each other but that doesn't last very long. They will never give up on each other not really. To me that is how the story has been told from the beginning.
I have had 10 years worth of enjoyment (packed into 4) in this show. If I didn't still buy into the brothers relationship I wouldn't watch anymore. That is the only reason I watch. That will never change for me.
Honestly the only thing about the show that I don't like is the fact that the J's aren't front and center in every episode anymore. That has definitely changed the dynamic of the way the story is told. That became very evident in S9. As much as I like Misha and Mark they are not why I watch SPN. Without Jared and Jensen the show just doesn't work. When they are on screen the show crackles, when they aren't I fold the laundry. Carver's hands are tied unfortunately. He has to come up with fillers that are Sam and Dean lite or absent altogether for a significant portion of the season. I don't have that much laundry.
disgruntled ex-viewer
# disgruntled ex-viewer 2015-06-27 03:14
Never mind, I was just grumpy. Didn't want to spoil your impression of the show.I wish you to enjoy the next season. ?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-27 03:26
No worries.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-06-27 06:46
I agree with Cheryl and Dan on this so don't need to repeat what they say. If I am being honest for my viewing experience I don't care what Dean fans, Sam fans, brother fans, Bobby fans, ship fans, "what ever fans" say. Only my view counts because well, if it was any other part of my life people would have no say in it either. Why would people care what other fans think? Of course it can help but it also can twist the view on something where it wouldn't otherwise go etc. Hostility is in every one of the named above but it is usually small part and like I have said I dislike generalizing because some bad apples of the fandom groups. Also wishing the show harm in any way or form including killing off characters or wishing actors would quit because you have stopped watching or don't like it anymore. I don't agree on that either. Season 10 and both brothers worked for me even if sometimes the story might have hiccups and I actually still view both in pretty good way. They both have made mistakes. They both have good and bad qualities and aren't perfect.

*copy-pastes what C & D said after this* ;)

PS. This was all around reply to this topic so don't know where it will land.

- Lilah
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-06-27 15:22
It's not only the way Dean fans interpreted it's the way Dean himself interpreted it. It's one thing for the fans to decide for themselves what they think happened and quite frankly each to his/her own. If they want to think Dean was a martyr to Sam's selfishness then that is what they will think. But Dean himself thought so too and said so on numerous occasions, including recently in season 10, you know, in case we forgot. How is a fan supposed to interpret the events fairly between the brothers when the show doesn't? We can't control how fans react to the show; some will give their favorite the benefit of the doubt every time and others will vilify the brother the don't like no matter what he does. There's not much we can do about that. However, we CAN expect the show to give each brother his due and in the first half of season 8, the second half of season 9 and 3/4 of season 10 Sam was NOT given his due while Dean was.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-06-27 16:43
It's true, and frustrating, that Sam POV is becoming an increasingly rare bird, although the reason I was much happier with the last few episodes this season is that we were finally getting some of it. But what makes it worse is that Dean's POV and actions are often supported by, or at least unquestioned by, other characters, while Sam's actions are questioned or judged by those same characters. Cas even condoned the angel possession because it was done out of love. One thing that bothered me about Sacrifice (and bothered Disgruntled ex-viewer as well) is Dean's laundry list of Sam's sins. I'll give him Ruby and the demon blood no argument, and I'm forced to give him Sam not looking for Dean because the show really didn't let Sam explain that in a defensible way, but Sam not telling him that he'd lost his soul? That was so ludicrous that even my Dean-girl daughter thought it was ridiculous and she thought it made Dean look bad for bringing it up. But if it was supposed to make Dean look bad, why did Sam just accept it without argument? When Dean does something, like taking on the MOC, NOBODY calls him on it. The only time anyone even kinda, sorta questioned that was when Cas said "What did you do?" in a scolding tone. That was it. Even Dean has never expressed any acknowledgment of how foolish it was, and he has been the king of assuming guilt even for things that were not his fault. But as soon as Sam tries to cure Dean and does things behind his back, we have Cas, Charlie and Bobby all immediately questioning it. It is so skewed that I am honestly puzzled that Carver allows it. He always wrote both brothers so beautifully and pretty even-handedly in earlier seasons. I will never understand it. But I am hoping that Carver is now done with all of the blame game and that the brothers are united. Even the Js have voiced that hope a number of times lately, and with any luck that carries some weight with TPTB.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-06-27 17:40
Double post. :D
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-06-27 17:40
Yeah, it's pretty hard to ignore the differences in the writing when the only thing anyone says to Dean about having Sam possessed was "you love too well," while what did Sam get for going behind Dean's back to help save him? "This reeks," "Sometimes a good man has to do bad things, and sometimes those bad things are REALLY bad" "Don't tell your brother what your're doing!" etc.. etc... etc ad nauseum by every character... even ROWENA got to chime in. Yes, we get it .... Sam was being BAAAAAAAAD. Although what else he was supposed to be doing was never brought up by anyone, was it. I can't help but shake the idea that the only really BAD thing Sam did was disagree with Dean, and in this era under Carver that is a Cardinal Sin. The show did not support Sam or his choices; every character had something negative to say about what he was doing, so how can he appear as anything but in the wrong? How can he be considered one of the heroes when his actions are considered underhanded and shady by everyone else on the show and they all tell him so? But when it was Dean doing shady things and making rash decisions does anyone say "Why are you doing this?" "This is wrong" ? Nope, not on your nelly. E
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-06-27 05:50
Quote:
They portray the man who decided to jump into Lusifer's cage as selfish, the man who defeated Lucifer by sheer willpower and deep love for his brother as weak and unloving.
Its not even just this... it's this idea that not only were we supposed to view Sam as the selfish one, but we were also supposed to view everything Dean did and said as heroic. Well, I didn't find much heroism in the entire MoC arc. To me there was nothing heroic about being that rash and making such a stupid decision for such a bad reason, so I could not sypmpathise, could not care that he become a demon, could not care that he decided eventually that the MoC was a bad thing. He brought it all on himself and that is not very heroic IMO. Furthermore they made Sam the scapegoat for much of it even though that makes no sense.... it still happened.
disgruntled ex-viewer
# disgruntled ex-viewer 2015-06-27 08:11
I agree with you about The Mark of Cain, there wasn't any necessity to take it. It was stupid and I didn't understand his motives. May be it was because Sam resumed drinking demon blood in season 4, and now it is Dean's turn to do something stupid?

But I didn't know that the last episode Carver worked on was Point of no Return before he returned to the show. It all starts to make sense, if he sees the brothers as they were in seasons 4 and 5. At that time Sam was a little bit immature, extremely insecure and quite reckless. And Dean was distrustful and unforgiving. And Carver portray them exactly that way. He simply poorly learned his homework. We should just forget what happened since then and what inner major changes boys experienced and he tryes to lead them the same road again. That makes them looked pretty dumb, but at least it makes some sense. From Carver's part it was just a a botched job, but he....has good intentions :D
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-27 09:29
You know that PONR is the episode that Sam stood up and took control of the situation. He was the one who rounded up Dean, made him see that his path was the wrong one, laid out the plan to rescue Adam and was the inspiration for Dean to overcome his suicidal mission to say yes to Michael and finally have faith in his brother. That was the point where Sam controlled the rest of the season heading towards his sacrifice (The point of no return). It was one of my favorites of the entire season.
disgruntled ex-viewer
# disgruntled ex-viewer 2015-06-27 09:57
Oh, I remember now. Then I have no explanation:( May be he forgot and builds the characters on the first part of the season? Where Sam was guilt-ridden?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-27 13:32
Well Sam's feelings of guilt are what drove him to jump in the cage so I guess that was a part of the second half of S5. In S10 it is also at the midway point that Sam starts to take control of the situation with Dean and the MOC. Dean has given up and Sam is in a ''rescue Dean no matter the consequences'' mode. Sam and his questionable decisions are what drive the rest of the season. It seemed to take forever to get there but finally the fillers were pretty much over and we got to the meat of the story.
disgruntled ex-viewer
# disgruntled ex-viewer 2015-06-28 08:06
I totaly disagree with you, that Sam jumped into the cage out of guilt, he did it out of responsibility. That's a big difference. In the beginning of season 5 he was guilt-ridden, and out of guilt he ran away to that bar. But in the course of season 5 he fully accepted what he had done and took full resposibility for his actions. He jumped into the cage to right all the wrongs, and not only his own but everybody involved, preliminary having saved his brother from the fate of being a suit for Michael, by the way. Sam matured during the course of season 5, and his maturing was completed when he faced the Famine. After that we only saw completely mature and highly responsible person, fully aware that every action has its reaction, ready to pay the price for everything and who can't do anything reckless and irresponsible by defalt, period. And during seasons 6 and 7 we saw the confirmation of that. Moreover, we saw in the episod with Osiris we saw a completely balanced person, a person who fully understands what he has done and concequences of that, who understands the price he and everybody paid, who accepted everything and made peace with his conscience and fully intending to go on with his life trying to do better. And it demands even more strength of character, than even decision to sacrifice oneself.
During season 5 also underwent a great change of character. He learnt to understand, to forgive and to trust. And seasons 6 and 7 also showed that Dean. That Dean can't blame Sam for anything he did before his great sacrifice. He had had every right to blame Sam during season 5, but Sam paid the price in full and much more. And Dean circa seasons 6 and 7 understands that.
I know that seasons 6 and 7 are criticized because Eve and Leviathan were not frightening enough. But these seasons are not about them. They are about price. Every action, even undeniably good has its price, and the more large-scaled the action, the higher price should be paid. And everybody paid. Sam paid with his sufferings in the cage, his pain and remorse for what his soulles part had done and insanity, Dean paid with his pain for his brother's sufferings, Bobby paid with his life, Castiel paid, and paid again. Even the world paid.
And what we see under Carver? Firstly, he ignored everything the heroes experienced and learned, and now they act completely out of their character, as if they are taken somewhere from season 4 or the beginning of season 5 but in quite deteriorated way, even when they were at their lowest, they weren't so bad.
Secondly, what was the underlining idea of his seasons? Except Sam is BAAAAD? I don't see any, except "show must go on"? He started losing the adult part of the audience, but it doesn't seem to bother him, because now he seems to orient only on that part of teenage viewers (and that is only a part), who is interested only in action and melodrama. And for that part of the audience, two heroes is too many, it makes the plot too complicated. He is dumbing down, and seems to be happy about that.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-06-28 09:20
See that is why we all get to interpret the show in the way we feel it was written. I see it one way you see it another. That is the beauty of the show. For me the portrayal of Sam being so guilt ridden from the beginning of the season pretty much slammed me in the face. Of course he felt responsibility for his mistakes. His sacrifice in SS was to right his wrongs and save the world. Whether he was manipulated or not he owned up to them and did what he had to do. That was the maturing of his character and I thought the whole point of Sam's arc.
disgruntled ex-viewer
# disgruntled ex-viewer 2015-06-28 10:43
Yes, but the guilt and responsibility are not the same. Guilt crashes, responsibility strengthens, guilt is about punishing himself, responsibility is about righting the wrongs. Sam didn't jump in Lucifer's cage to punish himself, he did it to right the wrongs. He paid in full not only for his mistakes, but also for his brother's mistakes, for Castuel actions, for angels' actions, for demons' actions. He sacrificed his life and doomed his soul for eternal torture for the world. And Dean in season 6 understands that. He said: "We all owe him. He took the bullet for the team".
And in season 8 and 9 we again see guilt-ridden Sam. It escapes my understanding, he shouldn't feel guilt anymore. Moreover, we see everybody else blaming him. But the matter of fact, it didnt show us Sam's drawbacks, it shows us drawbacks of those who blame him. How did Castiel call him? Second screwed-up person in the Universe? Did he forget his part in the manipulating Sam into killing Lilith? Why he thinks that Sam should feel guilt? Did Dean forget his part in triggering the Apocalypse? Did Dean forget the huge price Sam paid not only for Sam's mistakes, but for Dean's mistakes as well? Why Dean didn't correct Charlie, when she thanked him for saving the world? Instead he "humbly" accepted the thanks. If the authors of the show wanted to portray Dean as the only hero, they failed. They succeded in portraying him petty, self-righteous aand ungrateful fool. But it is not Dean of the first 7 seasons. It is not Dean at all. It's somebody else. And then we have Ackles brilliant acting in depicting Dean's pain in The Purge. The acting was absolutely brilliant. But why should I believe in Dean's epic love for his brother? Love is about forgiving, trust and appreciation. And I saw it in Dean's attitude to Sam in 6 and 7 season, but I don't see it in seasons 8 and 9.
The same can be said about the portrayal of Sam in these seasons. Not looking for Dean doesn't make any sense. He always looked before, and you said that in season 10 he is again " in a ''rescue Dean no matter the consequences'' mode". So, his "not looking" is out of logic completely. What was that? Oh, I know, that year when Dean was in Purgatory it was not Sam, it was a changeling. Carver will show it in the next season. :D
His speech in the Purge doesn't make any sense either. Yes, he had every right to be pissed. But Sam always forgave. And even he was unable to forgive quickly, he never made Daen suffer intentionally. And his speech in The Purge was intentionally cruel. Sam had never been cruel before. It was completely out of character.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-06-28 09:25
Your analysis of Season 5 is spot-on, and actually mirrors what Kripke himself said in an interview after that season. He said that the events in season 4 did great damage to the brothers' relationship, and that season 5 was about slowly rebuilding that relationship and the trust between them, and having both brothers "grow up." He also said that by the time Sam jumped in the pit the brothers had substantially matured and built a more functional relationship. And that is what we saw in seasons 6-7 once Sam got his soul back. Except for some minor conflicts like Amy, the brothers worked as a team, and their relationship did show a lot more maturity. That's why it was so puzzling to me when I read that one of Carver's goals as show runner was to tear down the brothers' dysfunctional relationship and rebuild a more mature one. Huh? Isn't that what Kripke and Gamble had already showed during their tenure? But either Carver forgot that this had already been accomplished, or he figured that we had forgotten and that it would create better drama to have some huge rifts between Sam and Dean. And it's true that conflict between the brothers can lead to interesting drama- this has been expressed by many of the people involved in the show over the years including the Js. It probably would be boring if they got along all the time. But I think Carver has gone overboard in the degree of conflict he has introduced, and that it has gone on for far too long. Much of the time, it has completely overshadowed the whole "saving people, hunting things" aspect of the show. Even worse, these conflicts have come at the expense of the brothers' characterizatio ns, which is something that didn't happen under Kripke and Gamble.
disgruntled ex-viewer
# disgruntled ex-viewer 2015-06-28 11:12
I am not against some drama, and their relationships had their problems at the end of season 7. I mean they understood each other, but both had some problems. For example, Dean felt guilt-ridden all the time,and I think he should get more balanced approach to the life, considering his role in saving the world more than once. And his hopelessness after he lost Lisa depressed me a lot. But I agree with you that Carver got overboard, and moreover he made the brothers make the same mistakes again, which they already understood, learned from and moved on. Drama in relationships never lasts three years. Even the dumbest people in the world are capable to solve it in one way or another.
disgruntled ex-viewer
# disgruntled ex-viewer 2015-06-28 11:45
Oh, I get it. May be Carver's idea of healthy relationships is to be cruel and unforgiving?
disgruntled ex-viewer
# disgruntled ex-viewer 2015-06-26 16:16
I’m not one of thousands fans of the show, and never been. I just used to belong to millions’ audience who watched the show and enjoyed it. Now I’m one of tenth season’s “viewership drop”. I dropped watching the show not because the show got old, I did it because the authors changed the main concepts of the show. It used to be a beautiful and compelling story about two brothers, who were imperfect and has his own flaws, but who had a lot of good in them, and whose love for each other helped them to find the strength inside themselves, keep themselves human and overcome the circumstances they had found themselves in. And I watched it, and really liked it for the first 7 seasons. Then I watched season 8 and 9, and found the show neither beautiful, nor compelling. It was embarrassing to say the least. The authors tried to turn one hero into “the role model” at the expense of the other. I just couldn’t understand why to make one real hero instead of two as it always was the case. And why to ascribe to the character flaws we know for sure he doesn’t have, which was proven repeatedly previously. Tough for the authors, but they can’t negate the content of the previous seasons, they can’t “change History”, the only thing they can do is show us how these past events are perceived by other characters of the show, and we get other characters thanking only Dean for “saving the world” and blaming only Sam for the events, that triggered the Apocalypse. They didn’t make people reevaluate the past events they only succeeded in rising bewilderment, making the supporting characters look biased and judgmental. The authors of the show didn’t make Dean look the “role model”, they made him look full of self-righteousn ess. The other brother started to look outright insipid and immature. And this contradicts the content of previous seasons in so many ways, that I just felt sick. Certainly, though they can’t change past seasons they can change the future, making Dean a perfect hero, and sidelining Sam and turning him into somebody weak and selfish, and I have been pretty sure for some time that they will. But it will be quite a different story, having nothing common with Supernatural I used to enjoy. It will be one of dozens of low-budgets about a “role model” superhero, which you will forget the next day. That’s why I stopped watching the show after season 9 and I’m unlikely to renew, as I gave up on the show with Carver at the head a year ago.