I’ve already said a lot about “Supernatural’s” uneven season seven, not just on this site but others as well. One would think that there isn’t much else for me to pick apart. After all, on top of my episode reviews, I’ve made the case that “Supernatural” leaned too much on a formulaic standalone process that resembled most procedurals, I entertained dream theories that didn’t come to be because what we perceived to be clues was really evidence of inconsistent writing, I’ve spelled out in great detail how characterization was a total mess, and I’ve even tackled the ever glaring issue of Sam Winchester’s sideburns. What’s left for me to say?
There’s a few issues that I haven’t dug into deep yet. When looking at individual episodes at a micro level, they weren’t bad. For the most part. Even “Season 7: Time For A Wedding” at first glance wasn’t that awful (my mind has changed since then). The issues happen when putting it all together. There is very little flow from one episode to the next and when these stories that did alright individually are put together, suddenly they’re a random mess. Considering that “Supernatural” in prior seasons (yes, even season six) did such a good to great job with season structure and overall arc, one has to wonder, what in the world happened in season seven?
The Season Seven Intent
One question is did season seven live up to what was truly intended by the writers? After all, the season got off to a very strong start, much stronger than season six. Even though there were a string of very weak to just plain bad episodes from episode three until episode 8 - “Slash Fiction” being the lone standout - most of the season’s momentum was truly lost in the second half. Fears that fans started to have in the first half of the season hit reality. There was no plan, or any plan that may have existed was abandoned. It was all random.
This show for so long was heavily bogged down with sweeping mytharcs and bombastic drama, I understand the attraction from a writer’s standpoint to go back to basics, doing MOTW cases and standalone stories that they were never able to do before because of the series structure. I know how many fans were ready to go back to the basics of season one, when it was just two guys and the open road. Heck, several demanded it under no uncertain terms.
When season seven was unveiled at Comic-Con last year, only Ben Edlund offered some hints about what to expect. “They’re going to have a tough year, Sam and Dean, like they always do. We’re really looking at, how have they been operating all these years, what have their tools been, what have their methods been, how can we take those things and make them difficult for them to use and they have to learn new tricks. They have to evolve too. This season is about challenging them as hunters. Previous seasons have often been about challenging them as brothers or as humans or as men. They’re going to have some professional difficulties because the world is going to try and eat them again.”
So, in a sense, that’s exactly what season seven was. Sam and Dean, stripped down to their bare essentials, out of the open road fighting monsters or whatever lurked in the shadows. As I’ve said before, a lot of these stories though lost their appeal when Sam and Dean were shown to be burned out, listless machines bouncing from case to case with no sense of purpose. But there’s other things that didn’t work either.
The Leviathan
"...It seemed to me like we were moving in the direction of a B-movie premise with the monsters [the Leviathans]. I would say the monsters were actually a wrestling match of things that worked and didn't work, but mythologically speaking they set the ground for other things that I'm very pleased we've got working in our grandfather clock, so to speak."
The B movie premise would exactly be the reason why the leviathan didn’t work. “Supernatural” has always made their monsters believable. Think about it, when the Trickster got too powerful, they made him an angel! The leviathan as the season progressed grew more comical than scary, more tacky than truly diabolical. When their agenda for world conquest preyed on perceived (and heavy handed) weaknesses of the American lifestyle, I actually expected it all to end with creatures in lizard style rubber suits and green makeup emerging from the black goo, followed by Ed Wood stepping out from behind the director’s chair yelling, “Cut!”
The story really is ridiculous if you think about it. Dick Roman conquered through best sellers about how to make money and tapping into the corn syrup supply? That’s...not creepy. It’s not even funny. Aside from Dick Roman, there wasn’t much interaction with the Leviathan week to week, and Dean’s weekly phone conversations with Frank weren’t exactly building tension. Mother of All ended up being more of a threat, and she wasn’t much of a threat.
A case can be made that by the end of the season, the leviathan were disposed of too conveniently, with Sam and Dean stumbling upon a God weapon. Perhaps, but I think at that point the story line just had to end. It wasn’t working, and as Mr. Edlund said they saw the opportunity for the monsters to drive a mythological setup for next season. It’s too bad though, because there was quite a bit of potential there that ended up being wasted just because some liberal writers in a room thought Americans were too fat and rich.
Editing, Pacing, and Tone
In season seven, far more than season six, the editing and pacing of the individual episodes served the technical structure of the story more than the emotional structure. It’s a known fact that in the Sera Gamble era, the scripts became a little more packed. They were shooting more story than what was allowed time wise so several scenes were cut. That’s okay, “The Vampire Diaries” does it. However, “The Vampire Diaries” knows it’s series tone, and often slows it’s story down to deliver the perfect emotional impact at the right times. That takes priority over all. “Supernatural” followed this formula as well in the first six seasons. In season seven though, something changed. In that editing room, the story structure became more important. This would explain several of the editing choices and the inability to slow down the story to play out the emotional elements most of the time.
In prior seasons, the stories and scene layouts played to the strengths of their actors. Jared and Jensen were given opportunities to sell pauses in the action just through nonverbal interaction. Even Misha Collins does this very well, but given the absence of his character for most of the season, his lost opportunities were noticeable. “Death’s Door” was a masterful showcase of this type of storytelling, but when it was all packed into one episode and not spread evenly through the season, that led to the overall uneven feel from episode to episode.
One scene that does stand out for me is Ghost!Bobby’s final farewell in the season finale. After a touching goodbye with Bobby, Dean throws the flask on the fire. We see Dean’s somber look as his face is lit up by the burning away of Bobby, then Sam’s. Next is a close up on Dean’s pained expression as the light fades away, then Sam’s devastated reaction, then they share a glance that speaks volumes about their grief. It all ends as the shot fades over to a somber Castiel on the stairs. Just gorgeous.
Season seven lacked a lot of what I call “Emotional Storytelling 101.” I’m not exactly sure if these choices were intentional, but in comparing episodes in season seven with prior seasons, it’s easy to pinpoint the style change.
Let’s start first with a “Supernatural” classic, the “troubled glare” ending. In “Nightmare,” Dean plays it cool for Sam’s sake, but this is his look as soon as Sam walks away.
“Your brother is headed down a dangerous road Dean and we don’t know where it leads. So stop it...”
Here's season seven's contribution, the end of "Season 7: Time For a Wedding." It just doesn't quite have the same punch, does it? Especially when the comment about Dean focusing on his life now went nowhere. It came after a goofy episode in which there were no high stakes that warranted this moment of reflection. It was completely out of place.
In comparison, there’s season three’s “Malleus Maleficarum,” when Dean and Ruby had a conversation about Dean’s fate. This scene too had plenty of back and forth. A lot. However, by the time that Ruby arrived, this scene played out for a little over four minutes. In that time, there was a wider variety of shots, not just back and forth. One shot that this show loves to use is framing both characters, clearly focusing on Ruby in the foreground when she talks, then Dean in the background when it’s his turn - exactly like the scene above for "Survival of The Fittest." There are over 50 cuts in that scene. When Ruby delivers her last comment to Dean and disappears, the focus of Dean is a slow fade away, and lasts almost ten seconds.
Editing wasn’t the only change. Pacing also frequently suffered. For another very interesting comparison, we don’t have to go any farther than season six’s “Unforgiven.” When matched up with season seven’s “The Born-Again Identity,” the contrasts are fascinating. Both told some rather devastating stories about Sam, but given that “The Born-Again Identity” dealt with Sam’s very long time coming mental breakdown, one would think that it would be far more gripping than the trauma he experienced remembering his vicious acts while soulless in “Unforgiven.” Somehow though, “Unforgiven” ended up being the far more emotional story.
“Unforgiven” for one focused clearly on Sam’s story. The way they slowly unfolded the mystery, taking time to fully show Sam’s traumatized reactions each time he remembered the past, working Jared’s strengths to sell the story without words, this is a great example of ideal pacing selling the story. I’m completely sucked in, feeling every bit of Sam’s gentle unraveling, drawn to tears at the end as he collapses and fades into traumatic memories of Hell.
No balance between episodes.
Season one often struggled with balance between episodes. The show was new, forging it’s identity, and some forget that the first half of the season got off to a very rough start. When the show managed though to find it’s balance between MOTW and mytharc midseason, it took off and paved the way for the vastly superior season two. For some reason, season seven never found that balance. Most episodes didn’t blend seamlessly, wildly swinging from one spectrum to another. For example, as enjoyable as “Plucky Pennywhistle’s Magical Menagerie” was in terms of mild humor, it proved to be a standalone that didn’t blend at all with the episode that aired before it, “The Slice Girls” or the episode that aired after it, “Repo Man.” Same for “Party On Garth,” a filler episode that followed the very story intensive “The Born-Again Identity.”
Fans were spoiled by the first five seasons in that we got very good at clue hunting. What was presented in one episode more times than not amounted to something come other episodes. Season six was the first season to fail in this regard, not delivering any kind of payoff to fans for their patience. Most of the clues ended up being red herrings to hide the real drama, Castiel and Crowley conspiring to steal souls from Purgatory.
When a bunch of us about two thirds of the way through the season seven became puzzled with the rough writing and plot threads that didn’t mesh, we tried to connect the dots. We ran a very popular series of articles here speculating Sam was still in Hell, Sam was still in a coma from “The Man Who Knew Too Much,” or Dean was dreaming in a Djinn induced haze. We presented our cases, and they made sense. Of course all our theories had roots in season six, and we probably knew that “Supernatural” going back that far and going “surprise!” might not be a better scenario either. We hoped it all made sense in the end though.
Is Sam Winchester Still In Hell?
Let's Discuss: Another Theory Surrounding Supernatural Seasons 6 and 7
Inside Sam's Grapefruit: Speculations on Season 7 of Supernatural
It's About Time That Dean Slept for 36 Hours
Sadly, come “The Born-Again Identity,” the truth became clear. It was all random. It was all from in-cohesive writing. There is no prize waiting at the bottom of the box and no sweeping arc other than the boys running from B movie monsters and going through the motions from week to week. Even the third cast member, the Impala, was noticeably (and often painfully) absent. In some ways, that letdown was so severe that it pretty much blew the rest of the season.
Which is Better, Season Six or Season Seven?
What’s most strange to me is that when I did my season six review last summer, I wasn’t very happy with that season either, calling it the worst season of the series. I had very high hopes that season seven would restore “Supernatural” to it’s past glory. After seeing the finished product, I can now profess, I liked season six better. I’m ready to call season seven as “Supernatural’s” worst.
Why? Sure the overall arc for both seasons was a total mess, season six missed some big opportunities as well, most notably with the Campbell family, and both seasons did the character of Castiel a gross disservice. But season six stuck to the one element that defines this show. They kept the brotherly bond in tact. Mostly. I even saw more brotherly bond with soulless Sam than I did with the brothers all this season.
For those still not convinced, let’s look at the episodes. When I examine the episode lists for both seasons, I find myself fondly smiling over far more season six titles than season seven. “Clap Your Hands If You Believe” and “The French Mistake” are not only two of my all time favorites, but my family’s as well. For reasons that some might find unfathomable, I absolutely love “Live Free and Twi-Hard” and “Unforgiven.” There was just a certain shocking drama and emotional quality in both Dean and Sam in those episodes that to this day push my heart to the brink. And who can’t smile over “Frontierland?” Also me and my daughter to this day snicker anytime we hear Jefferson Starship at the store. Yes, that little joke in “Mommy Dearest” will live forever, just like Asia’s “Heat of The Moment.” And in terms of storytelling and cinematic quality, one of the strongest episodes ever done on “Supernatural” is Ben Edlund’s “The Man Who Would Be King.”
“Supernatural” stands apart from other shows and has gained its following because it isn’t a formulaic and normal show. Each week they mixed it up and it all added up to something. The episodes were just the ideal blend of humor, action, drama, angst, tension, mythology, and you just didn’t know what to expect each week. Once season six and season seven lost that balance, the show lost at least a portion of its luster, it not a major chunk. By the end of season seven, I didn’t recognize this show anymore.
It’s Not All Bad
It’s not all bad though. The way I talk of season seven often times, you’d think I’m making it sound like it was 23 episodes of “Bugs.” That’s obviously not true and there are many fans that were happy with the season and liked the standalone concept. Ben Edlund continued to fire on all cylinders with his scripts, and new writer Robbie Thompson proved to be an excellent addition to the staff, giving us three really great action oriented episodes that were a massive treat to watch, yet they also managed to stay true to the characters. The season finale also set the show back on track, setting up some amazing possibilities for the season to come.
From the technical aspects, “Supernatural” remains very strong. The production quality is still top notch. The direction, the lighting, the sound, the set decoration, the visual and special effects, etc. “There Will Be Blood” was a first class exhibit of cinematography. When looking at how shots were framed in the first three seasons and the way they are now, it’s just amazing how sophisticated the technical elements of this show have gotten.
No doubt, fan expectations are big. This fandom has taken so many different directions, the writers have to write for themselves as opposed to pleasing fans, because there’s no pleasing all fans. But season seven was a drastic departure from everything that made this show what it was. It moved away from the core vision and tried to be something else. Trying something new is good. Starting a new chapter is often necessary. But the show still has to be recognizable to it’s base and I think in this season the show strayed too far. That doesn’t mean of course that people weren’t entertained, but I can see why it was often disappointing for the long time faithful.
I just don’t see myself re-watching a lot of “Supernatural” season seven, putting it on the shelf for dust to collect next to my “Smallville” season 8. The season may have not worked for me, but I have very big hopes for season eight now that I’ve gotten the pitch. There is a new creative energy and focus, and even Jensen and Jared are very happy with the changes. This gives me hope, and season eight gets the benefit of the doubt from me.
Goodbye season seven. If I’m ever feeling nostalgic for campy horror movies blended with cop procedurals, I’ll be sure to give you another look. I’m now proclaiming the door on season seven closed.
Comments
Would I be right in guessing that you thought seasons 4 and 5 were Supernatural's best? I only guess that because I thought they were the worst. For me, season 7 was better than anything since midseason 4 if only for the fact that I like more individual episodes in this season than in 4, 5, and 6. I agree that they needed to big the mytharc up more and that there was a lack of flow between writers, but I had a blast watching most of the episodes and that's something I can't say for most of seasons 4 and 5.
I think we will like season 8. I have high hopes.
I've been mulling this season over these past few days after I read several comments from fans who loved this season and last. I thought , am I being too critical? Have I turned into someone who nitpicks every episode to pieces? No I don't think so. Usually by now, I'm chomping at the bit for the DVD. Even S6 and I didn't love that season as much as past ones. Not this time. I will never have the expertise to analyze things in as much detail as you, the other writers and many of the fans but I KNEW this season just didn't satisfy on so many levels. The missing(mostly) of brotherly moments, The unending depression of Dean except the occasional episodes where he was cheerful for no reason. No follow- thru on Sam's story and many other things. I can only compare this season to eating a meal that fills you up but you end up leaving the table unsatisfied.
You have put into words what I can't and I can live with not being crazy about this season and not feel disloyal to the show I love so much. Onward to S8.
I'm sharing your tentative optimism about S8 though - hopefully the things that made this the best Show ever will be more in evidence once again :)
I like how you pointed out some of the technical aspects too. I notice that stuff far more since I started watching this show (not just SPN, but other shows too). They certainly did miss a few opportunities to linger on a shot here and there. You know, I've rewatched a couple of episodes from earlier seasons just recently and it's easy to see the difference between then and now. I think it does lend to what I always thought was the problem with the last two seasons-a lack of focus. They had ideas, plenty of them, but I'm not sure they could decide which ones to give the most attention to. Honestly though, if they'd kept the brothers and their relationship at the core, I think everything else would've fallen into place. You're right-they strayed too far.
As for the episodes not really playing well together, I watched Plucky's and Repo Man together and I ended up going straight from laughing and light-hearted to utterly creeped out. I'm kind of used to this show getting to me emotionally, but that was a bit extreme, even for Supernatural.
All that being said though, I'm excited for season 8. It may just be I'm still happy the show's still on the air, but I do think they can get it back on track.
But we know one thing now, Season Eight cannot be worse than this, so my hopes go to Jeremy Carver.
As much as it pains me to say so, the stand-alone episodes were the most enjoyable for me. As for the overall "myth arc" of the season --- I'M SO F****ING TIRED OF THIS PC CRAP CREEPING INTO ALL ASPECTS OF MY LIFE ESPECIALLY MY TV SHOW !!!!!
So, I think I'm going to go out and get a big juicy hamburger, a Dr. Pepper, and plan a corporate raid. Just to piss TPTB off.
The Sam wall/hallucinat ions wasn't a story because it wasn't building to anything else or supporting the mytharc. Dean's emotional story seemed to be building to him doing something that would move the main arc Leviathans/Purg atory in a new direction, but in the end, his big activity (getting sucked into Purgatory) had nothing to do with his depression. Same goes with Bobby's death/ghost reappearance. It was not connected to anything else, other than maybe Dean's depression.
The most hopeful thing I took away from Comic Con was the impression that JC has a plan. I don't feel like I know enough yet to know whether I'll find this plan satisfying, but I feel confident things will start leading somewhere again. And sorry to make this a brother thing, but I really need to see a good-faith effort to balance things out this season. A dog and an ex-girlfriend for Sam is a good start in giving him his humanity back, but we haven't heard anything yet about a meaty storyline for Sam - and I feel like it's been since season 4 since Sam had an interesting storyline. In season 6 it initially looked like something really interesting was brewing (that something significant might have happened in Hell to make him soulless, or that there was a mystery about his RoboSam days) but that didn't pan out to anything. The lack of information doesn't mean that there isn't a good story being developed for Sam, but we haven't heard anything yet either. It can be either in the past or in the present, but I need more than what we've gotten in the past few years to get excited about this show again.
The other commenters have pretty well covered my feelings; no planning, no story really told, no involvement or character development within the season, and on and on.
Comic Con gave me back some hope that the Show can recover, and I'm looking forward to the premier episode. I love this series, but I can't do another season like S6 and S7. It has been that bad, and what a shame when we have these two exceptional characters and actors. I hope we get back to a story about them.
Great review, and quite spot on too.
I gotta agree that this season is the worst, and I'd thought before that season 6 was but soon changed my mind after season 7 seemed so disjointed and weary. The connection was missing and there was really no aim in sight. And it was really a big shame since the season started out so strongly, way more stronger that season 6. But it started to go downhill from there. I had some hope but it slowly withered away as the episodes left me baffled and confused when they didn't seem to match to the prior (or the next) episodes. I too started hating the suits and the by-the-numbers -feel and missing the looks btw the brothers and their lack of genuine emotion towards anything, even each other!
Sam and Deans stories were told so poorly (Sams' because there was so much they could've done with it but did practically nothing, and Deans' by not giving him one, yet again) that it really made me uncaring and bored most of the time. I didn't see the love and mostly didn't feel it either. And that is the main reason I watch the Show.
I've been reflecting this season for quite some time and agree that individually the seasons episodes weren't half bad, but only if considered as standalones (not counting the first two eps). But ultimately if the season doesn't come together as a whole (and also neglects the main characters storylines so greatly), it will not come out as anything exciting or engaging. This season was a mess. And before I had thought that they couldn't ruin a season like they ruined season 6, but boy, was I wrong. Now, I actually do appreciate season 6 more (but it's certainly not even close the standards of the prior seasons). But at least it had a story to tell, unlike season 7 which was just a trainwreck. But hey, maybe I'll learn to appreciate it (or atleast tolerate it better) after some time.
Season 8 on the way, I'm feeling a bit mised bag of emotions, from trepidation to hope to wee bit excitement. I took the spoilers pretty bad at first (well Sams atleast), now with some time, I'm getting a bit more optimistic. But I gotta admit, that I'm still reeling over the clunkyness that was season 7 (and the fact that we've lost a great writer and still have so many..er... not so good ones, but atleast we got JC back which is nice) that my overall faith is a bit shaky at times. I'm putting a lot of faith I do have in JC so maybe I'm still hopefull that Show can turn around from this boring, clinical, direction. I do like that he's stressed how the brothers are the Show (something Kripke and Singer used to talk about in the earlier years), that their connection and bond is the base. I could live with that. :)
And also "mixed bag of emotions" was meant.
Anyway, I do find myself agreeing with you on the procedural front and extreme lack of brotherly love and brotherly moments. The last shot of "Bloodlust", the dithering over the top of the Impala, the ends of "Supernatural Christmas", "Malleus Malificarum" and "Bedtime Stories" etc. That kind of thing was all missing from season seven, and I missed it dearly! I keep thinking of the scene in "Bedtime Stories" in the hospital, when the doctor let his daughter go, and Dean says to Sam "Good advice!" and Sam says "Is that what you want me to do Dean? Just let you go?" and Dean, with an enigmatic look turns away and walks away from the camera down the hall in an extended shot, with Sam looking on. Somehow that shot just broke my heart and filled me with such emotion! Where have those moments gone? To me, they have been few and far between since season 4 and the brotherly division began.
I too loved "Live Free or Twi-Hard". Jensen fills me with despair in his depiction of Dean's horror, but I didn't enjoy Sam's return to that town with the spiders "Unforgiven". Maybe I couldn't reconcile Sammy with that cold cold monster he portrayed. Who knows why some things resonate in different ways with different folks.
So on the hindsight, I did enjoy season 6 more than 7. It had a much better flow and Dean's depression didn't overshadow everything and Sam's wall wasn't broken until the end of it.
It seemed like they were in much too much of a hurry to get the stories crammed into the time slot that they threw away all the little nuances that makes this show so special. Just when it seemed a moment was approaching it was dismissed much too quickly and on to the next scene. No opportunity to feed off the awesome talents of the 2 Js. No wonder Dean was depressed, maybe Jensen was a little also if all the good bits ended up on the cutting room floor.
Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed even season 7 more than any other show on the air, so when I play my dvds I won't skip it, but watch in order, as I am persnickety that way. I don't even cut out "Criss Angel/Douchebag " and I do not like that one at all.
The enthusiasm of the guys at ComicCon and the return of Jeremy Carver has me feeling enthusiasm for season 8, and I surely hope neither you or I will be disappointed. And I never want this show to end!
1. I still feel "The Mentalists" was meat & potatoes Classic Supernatural MOTW, and very much enjoyed this solid episode.
2. "The Girl Next Door" I still feel Amy was overall evil and needed to die. This episode had great flashbacks with Sam. I feel Kitsune grow evil as they get older. Jewel Staite was so charming in her performance, this is why so many fans FLIPPPED when Dean killer her at the end. True they let other monsters get away (before and after Amy), but this was motivated by Sam being a basket case at the time.
3. Dean and Jo's scene was beautiful.
4. Death's Door is in top 5 episodes of all time.
5. "Adventures in Babysitting" is another way underrated episode. The father hunter and his daughter were wonderful, good solid tone and structure of this episode.
6. "Adventures in Babysitting", "Time After Time", "The Slice Girls", "Plucky Pennywhistle's Magical Menagerie", and "Repo Man" were all very good/great episodes, and the strongest string of episodes in Season 7.
7. "The Girl With the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo" is another Classic. Charlie is one of the all time best guest characters. I hope very much to see her back. Soon!
As of now we have seen two Kitsunes Amy's mother who killed humans without remorse for food and Amy who found a job in a funeral home so she could feed without killing humans. The only time she deviated from this was when her child was ill. That does not mean she got evil as she got older, it meant her priorities changed when her child's life was on the line.
For all we know, Amy's mother is the anomaly and the real reason so many funeral homes are family operated businesses is because Kitsune families run them so they don't have to kill to eat. It certainly is easier when people bring the food to you.
Dean believed he had to kill Amy. I'm less certain he did, but the show came down on his side. The only thing I really am certain of is that I hope this storyline never, ever rears its ugly head again. I want her son to join his Uncle Arthur in the funeral home in Alaska and not have him show up trying to kill Dean.
You may feel that way, but there isn't any canon evidence to support you. Amy didn't kill because her nature overcame her; she made a choice to do something evil in emotionally compelling circumstances. You might as well say that Sam drained the nurse because it was his nature and he got evil as he got older, or that Dean tortured again to save Lisa and Ben because it was his nature and he gets evil as he gets older, or that Cas broke Sam's wall because it was his nature and he got evil as he got older.
Dean seeing it as a question of nature and can't help it has to do with Dean's issues. He wasn't actually making the (reasonable enough) argument that if her son got sick again she would choose to kill again for her son's sake, he was saying that she would inevitably kill because it was her nature and she couldn't help it. Which wasn't a rational read of the situation, but says volumes for the helplessness that Dean himself was feeling about himself and about Sam.
You need to re-read my comments before putting words in my mouth. I said I think Kitsune become more evil as they get older. The support? Amy's mom was going to kill Sam. Later as an adult, Amy became a killer. Does her killing humans--regardl ess if they are "bad humans--for her son's benefit justify her killing humans? Of course not. But she did. I feel on the surface she appeared very nice, but she was very manipulative, to get what she wanted in her "emotionally compelling circumstances" as you put it. That was the beauty of Jewel Staite's performance.
Remember Sam and Dean are humans, and Cas is an Angle. They are not Kitsune, so your comments "might as well say" in this context make no sense. I never said humans or Angels get evil as they get older. Killing Amy was not Dean's issue with nature. There were several examples in the series when the boys let a monster go. They even later appear to have let Leviathan George go free at the end of "Out with the Old." Sam asked Dean to let Amy live. Dean was extremely worried about Sam's state of mind, and did not trust Sam's judgement. Dean killed Amy because he, at the time, did not trust Sam's judgement.
It's not a question of whether Amy's choice was justified -- her actions are worse, not better, for having been dictated by choice rather than nature. But that still means that her actions are comparable to those of others who have free will, not a result of a natural process of growing older, and that makes her, in that respect, the same kind of creature as humans or angels.
"I was quoting your own words." No, actually you wern't. If you can find where I said HUMANS or ANGELS become more evil as they get older, I will send you a $100 bill. You completely missed the point and any response you have is irrelevant. I can't read the rest of your response when the first line starts with a lie.
"I feel Kitsune grow evil as they get older." THAT is what I said. I stand behind my comments and thoughts, after watching "The Girl Next Door" MANY times, since it so divided fans. Amy was not as innocent as those fans who freaked out Dean killed her think she was. That is my feeling, my belief, MY possible conclusion.
I think the ways in which different monsters behave, the degree to which humans, angels, and monsters have or feel that they have free will, and the ways in which Sam and Dean identify and identify with monsters are extremely important and complex themes of the show, and not ones that offer black and white answers.
I have tried to engage in a good faith discussion with you. But I don't think that's possible if you respond with accusations of lying and refuse to even read my points, so I think I will bow out now. Perhaps we can continue this potentially interesting discussion under circumstances of less hostility at some later point.
"....or that Dean tortured again ..."
"....or that Cas broke Sam's wall..."
I disagree with those three comments you made.
Could you say the same about Humans? Yes you could. I personally believe as humans get older they become less evil. Kitsune are not Humans so the follow a completely different set of rules. They are monsters. That is why I don't have a problem with the black and white--if it's a monster, kill it, because eventually it will kill. That is my opinion. That is not Dean and Sam's as they have shown countless times. I hope we see Amy's son again, and Dean finishes the job, because by letting him go, Dean left another monster on the loose (not to mention Donald and Maggie Stark, they should have been killed too!).
caelius if we got our meanings and context crossed here, I apologize. Good faith discussion is good. We obviously both have love for Supernatural, and may see things from different points of view. I encourage that and look forward to many more discussions with you and all other fans here.
What about the Benders? Do you believe they should be killed?
Jesse--I would have voted yes. The boys did not. He was a threat I would like to see Jesse return, I thought he would have before the end of Season 5.
Baby Shifters-Most of the shifters in SPN have been bad and killed by the boys. I would say probably.
Sam--if I recall he has Demon blood, he is not a demon. And killing him, there is no show! My vote is No on Sam.
Benders--didn't they all die, except for the sister who never hunted or killed anyone? The others in that episode--heck yes.
Thing is, I'm a little confused. I know these are just your opinions but I'd like to share mine:
I disagree with your reasoning here for Jesse, Baby shifters and Sam. Just to go back a little, I do think Dean killed Amy not just because she was a monster but because she was killing people. So this is my reasoning here: I don't think Jesse should have been killed. Killing him just because he had the potential to harm, makes that black and white to me. Yes, he hurt some people, but he didn't know he was doing it. Same for the baby shifters. I don't agree that just because other shifters grew up evil, they will too.
It reminds me of the conversation Sam and Dean had in Bloodlust when they were arguing about killing Lenore and her nest. Dean said, "If it's supernatural we kill it. End of story. That's our job." and Sam reminded him, "No, Dean that is not our job. Our job is hunting evil. And if they're not killing people, then they're not evil"
Sam: Obviously I'd never want to see Sam killed, but if Jesse should've died because he was a threat, by that reasoning, Sam should be too. No, he's not a demon, but he has demon blood in him which gave him psychic powers that made him capable of killing.
Not only are the issues surrounding killing and sparing monsters and the lines between monster and human never simple on Spn in the abstract, Sam and Dean's reactions are both further complicated by what's going on with them individually, apart from the abstract question. Their responses are always going to be subjective.
I've always tried to judge Sam and Dean's decisions, not by my own standards but by the situation they're in and what factors may have been influencing them at the time. Maybe that's why Sam forgave him so quickly. As you said, Sam admitted that maybe his decision might have changed if he hadn't known Amy, and Dean made a call he believed in at the time. I agree, their judgments were influenced by their situations. I think somewhere in there they got to a mutual understanding of that, which I thought was very mature. They both looked at both sides of the story.
Trust is another issue. I'm still not entirely sure if it was Sam's judgement on Amy he didn't trust, or just Amy. But Dean admitted to his trust issues, too. Doesn't mean it didn't upset people to see the brothers lying to each other again, though.
The bond between Sam and Dean felt more flat to me too, the emotional interaction was missing, I just didn't feel that spark that I felt in the previous seasons. I think they meant to show that the brothers were finally getting some peace of mind, getting more mature and balanced, or something.
And then of course Castiel. No matter how happy I was to have him back, I didn't like how they turned him into a comical character. It was funny for one episode, but after a while when he started rambling about monkeys and playing twister, the way they tried to make him funny seemed way too forced. I love the sense of humour on this show usually, it's one fo the reasons I love Supernatural, but this to me was kind of fail. They ruined a once strong character. Compared to this season, season 6 was old skool good. I do however have high hopes for season 8, like you, and I'm crossing fingers that my hopes get fulfilled. But I have faith. Can't wait. Onwards to season 8!