Jeremy Carver Interview on Supernatural Season 11, Comic Con 2015 Edition of TV Guide
I have in my hands the coveted Comic Con Edition of TV Guide for 2015, hot off the presses. As in year’s past, there is an interview with Jeremy Carver about the upcoming season. Below is that entire interview, which was done by Ileane Rudloph of TV Guide.
I wouldn’t say there are a lot of spoilers in here. He’s very vague. But, it gives you some idea of the direction.
For those interested, the magazine also has a page on making the 200th episode (Fan Fiction), a look at favorites that have been killed off (they need a freaking book for all that!), and the interview with Jeremy Carver.
My edition has the cover of Arrow on it, so there are some really great previews from other shows too. I’ll be featuring those on our sister site TV For The Rest of Us.
In the closing moments of the season finale, we saw the Darkness envelop the brothers inside their Impala. What’s next?
Fans should be prepared for both the expected and unexpected. What we have planned so far is pretty wonderful, but it’s very hard for me to tease it.
If Dean had ended up killing Sam and going into exile to remove the Mark of Cain as Death had advised, the Darkness would never have returned. Will Dean have regrets about his decision?
There’s no question the boys will feel the burden of having been part of releasing the Darkness. It’s tough for me to believe, however Dean will get to that place. You might have to file this one under the price Dean was willing to pay.
Instead of killing Sam, Dean murdered Death! Does this mean everyone on Earth is immortal?
The question now is: We killed Death, but can you kill the idea of death? We’ll be looking forward to answering it in Season 11.
After several seasons of Dean or Sam being evil or cursed, will they finally be working side by side this year?
As always all I can say is yes—and no.
Is the Darkness your biggest bad since Lucifer and the threat of the Apocalypse in Season 5?
It’s safe to say this is the biggest thing to happen to the boys in a long time. We’re starting to explore prebiblical territory, a part of the universe’s history that hasn’t been written about before. This is what happened before the Bible begins.
In the finale, Rowena’s magic caused a crazed Castiel to attempt to slaughter the King of Hell, her hated son Crowley. Will either survive to help the brothers?
Based on what happened in that room, both of these guys have far bigger things to deal with than the boys at the top of the season.
So who will the Winchesters turn to for help?
The scariest proposition for Dean and Sam is they don’t know exactly what they need because they don’t know exactly what they’re dealing with. They only know what Death has told them. Everything after that is pretty much fresh snow, because so few people know about this.
Finally, what is your big theme for Season 11?
You can’t outrun your past.
Also, here’s a quote by Carver in the photo caption:
“What fearsome reign the darkness will bring is yet unknown. Death [was afraid] he’d be destroyed by its coming.”
In the other photo caption of Crowley and Castiel, it says (not a Carver quote):
Though Crowley was in peril from a bewitched Castiel, both will play big parts next season.
well that was a big steaming pile of crap from Carver. Welcome to Season 11 🙂
Who is more burnt out? You, me or Russ? :D:D:D:D
not sure :):) I’m struggling to even watch the Season 10 repeats this hellatus. This is right up there with prior Carver interviews which basically say “Sam and Dean do stuff, and there are consequences”.
Heard you were under the weather; hope you’re feeling better.
I cant watch & have deleted everything except ”The End & Fan Fiction” :p
Salt and burn that puppy and throw a little holy oil on it just to be thorough. When does anything Carver says ever make sense? Sometimes I wonder if he still thinks he’s back on Being Human. I honestly have to question how that guy can even remember where he parked his car in the morning! “Uh Jeremy, honey, it’s right here. Right here. Where your space is marked with your name…” Oh My Me.
plate is.
they should expand his responsibilities from Show Runner to Show Runner AND Show Watcher; sometimes I wonder if he even watches the show.
Or to Show Barely Pays Attention Runner! Or to Show Is He Asleep at the Switch Runner!! Or to Show Wake Me for the Season Finale Runner!!! Or… 😉
“After several seasons of Dean or Sam being evil or cursed, will they finally be working side by side this year?
As always all I can say is yes—and no.”
Argh. Carver.
He has put us through the ringer with Sam & Dean angst since he took over as showrunner. SPN does NOT need Sam & Dean to be at odds to make it good & entertaining – in fact it needs the exact opposite.
SPN works best when the brothers working side-by-side – it worked SO well in the earlier seasons – Sam & Dean against a common enemy, against the world. Always better together than apart. But Carver seems so set on constantly tearing them apart & never allowing them to be on the same page.
It is horrible character development for both brothers & I really don’t think he understands just how important that brotherhood has been and is to the series.
Couldn’t agree more!
I thought that finally we would get Sam and Dean against the enemy instead of each other. After several seasons of forced fights, I was so hopeful because it’s the perfect set up.
I was wrong. 🙁
[quote]SPN works best when the brothers working side-by-side – it worked SO well in the earlier seasons – Sam & Dean against a common enemy, against the world. Always better together than apart.[/quote]
I, too, am in complete agreement. From your lips to Carver’s ears!
Carver has always played it close the vest with spoilers, either because he doesn’t believe in them, or because he doesn’t have the season planned out. So far not impressed, but they could handle it well. I am guessing that Cas and Crowley may well be in their own story and not interacting with Sam and Dean. That certainly gives the Js time off, so it makes sense.
Keeping Cas and Crowley on a separate arc, maybe going after Rowena, would certainly make sense and plays in to recent seasons where they are trying to reduce the workloads for Jared and Jensen. And I honestly don’t think The Carver plans the season out that far in advance. The “Darkness” played out like a last minute addition so they could “accordion” his 3 year arc out another season.
ugh no, one of the reasons s9 sucked as much as it did, was because Castiel’s storyline, and the angels in general had zero or nothing to do with the Winchesters. they actually got me to lose interest in Cas that season because of how badly written that arc was and how disconnected it was from the Winchesters who are supposed to be the main chars, yet instead became nothing more than supporting characters to Castiel’s story.
I watch the show for Dean, if Dean isn’t a major part of Castiel’s storyline, then for me, I lose all attention whenever Castiel’s onscreen. And the same, only worse, goes for Crowley
I completely agree, but I feel bad for J2. That is a hell of a work schedule if they are in every episode. I’m sure the Cas/Crowley heavy ones, with a little separate storylines are a nice break. But I *hated* the angels story line, have in every season since season 5. I just don’t care. I can’t even keep track of who is rebelling and against whom they are rebelling and what even Metatron wants anymore. Probably because I fast forward past all the scenes.
Let’s hope the brothers are working together this season. I can’t much more of them hiding and lying and try to kill each other. Watching the first five seasons again, and comparing them to these last few seasons, has made it even worse.
[quote]The “Darkness” played out like a last minute addition so they could “accordion” his 3 year arc out another season.[/quote]
I agree. The fact that the MOC became the Darkness, an amoral force before the beginning of time did play out as a last minute addition. It simply made no sense and there was no connection. First, the MOC in itself was confusing. The MOC made Dean sick and eventually would kill him if he did not kill. Then there was the question of whether the MOC with the Blade caused Dean to become a Demon or not. We were led to believe Dean was resurrected as a Demon, the demon cure was used on him and Dean himself said he became a Knight of Hell. BUT, in 10.1 Dean was told that if he did not kill, the MOC would turn him into a Demon. So we thought the MOC was evil and as Cain stated, would force Dean to eventually kill his brother. Then the MOC is released from the arm of a human into the universe and is no longer a mark at all, has nothing to do with Cain or fracticide and it was just a lock and key to the DARKNESS which you think would be evil but it is not. It is an amoral force. “Being neither moral nor immoral; specifically : lying outside the sphere to which moral judgments apply. ” So what does it want if it is amoral and if it is amoral why did God have to fight it back with the Archangels? Okay so if it was a lock and key all along, what the hell where we dealing with in season 9 & 10? And where does the Blade fit in to the lock and key? With this last minute addition of the Darkness season 9 and 10 make less sense to me.
[quote]If there’s a key…then there has to be a lock. And when we find the lock, we can get the weapons, and then we can have the weapons. And the lock. We’ll still have the lock, I imagine, because we’ve opened it, and, of course, the initial key.[/quote]
Thanks E, NOW I get it. 🙂
Yes…that helps doesn’t it? It makes about as much sense. :D:D
I guess with the darkness released and what did Carver say – “Before the Bible begins” maybe Castiel has begged his way back into heaven to FIND GOD ( repeat, repeat) for answers. And Crowely dealing with Rowenna and maybe some new DEMONS ??!! who won’t hell
Now why on earth would he tell us what’s going to happen? Where would be the fun or suspense in that? If you enjoy, watch. If you don’t, don’t. I for one am dying to know, but that’s the beauty and the sweet agony!
It’s not necessarily that we need to know what’s going to happen, we just want an interview where Carver sounds competent, and that is not this interview.
I agree with you about just wanting Carver to sound like a competent show runner. [quote]It’s safe to say this is the biggest thing to happen to the boys in a long time. We’re starting to explore prebiblical territory, a part of the universe’s history that hasn’t been written about before. This is what happened before the Bible begins.
[/quote] According to Carver the YEAR OF DEAMON was supposed to be a big thing that happened to the boys. I am also glad he defined PRE- biblical for everyone. 😉
According to Carver we were going to explore “who was the bigger monster” and we all saw how much THAT happened….Carver seems to have trouble telling the difference between exploring an idea in reality and just having a character say the words on screen one time. So Dean, in the throws of his demon cure says to Sam “who’s the bigger monster?” which for Carver means that they explored that storyline “in a big way.” (His own words BTW). Yeah… not so much. So, I want to see in an interview that Carver is not just spewing crap and talking smack. Kripke was SOOOOOO much better at this than The Carver is.
I take back my comment. I don’t want him to “sound” like a competent show runner. I apologize for poking fun at his difficulty to communicate well with the press. Maybe he is not an effective PR guy and he does not have to be. I want him to BE a competent show runner. I just want a cohesive story line that deals with epic issues (leaves behind the commonplace mommy, BFF, and teenage angst) which centers on the brothers who act and speak consistently as their established characters.
A-men!
I wouldn’t mind if Crowley and Cas end up working together, maybe to hunt down Rowena and Metatron. Rowena so they can kill her and retrieve the BOTD (which Crowley would then try to double-cross Cas so HE could keep the book) and Metatron because as the scribe of God he might know something about the Darkness. So their plot would tie into the Winchesters, and it would be entertaining because I love how they interact. Their scene at the crossroads in Brothers Keeper was hilarious.
Its simple. What he is saying is: ‘It’s the biggest thing to happen since before the last time which happens when it began but before the bigger thing. Oh and angst. Did I mention the angst?’ See I interpreted it for you all. It couldn’t be any clearer! Sheesh. Bunch of doubters. And yes, I am fluent in Carver speak. Why do you ask?
😀 I wish the big smile didn’t look so much like a maniacal psychopath but you get the idea.
Ha! Yes, he’s thinking “Come along follow me into my little world o- I’m sorry, where am I? Has anybody seen my car!!!”
I was thinking while driving home today that if there ever is a Supernatural movie – WHAT THE HELL is going to be left to fight? I mean, pre biblical? Before the DAWN OF TIME? A nest of vamps just doesnt quite hold up in the fear department after that now does it? I mean I guess the boys could hitch a ride on T.A.R.D.I.S. and go where no Hunter has ever gone before but…
Yep I’d say the idea well is running pretty dry. Thus some of the recycling. But WTH I still want to watch and that’s saying something after 10 yrs. I still look forward to every season.
[quote]It’s safe to say this is the biggest thing to happen to the boys in a long time. [/quote]Believe it when I see it.As of now the monsters carver has created are big flopshows.
[quote]You can’t outrun your past.
[/quote]Sam never Has.His past has always found him.So nothing new here.Dean will never apologize and whatever Dean has done will never be mentioned .Gadreel possession,ignorantly possessing MOC without listening to the warning…no but when sam tries to remove the mark we have Dean himself telling Sam ,who does not know a thing abt the mark that what he is doing is bad.If the writers can get their heads out of Dean’s a$$, this season 11 may be good ..but yeah carver does not inspire any kind of excitement abt season 11 in me as of now.
[quote]The scariest proposition for Dean and Sam is they don’t know exactly what they need because they don’t know exactly what they’re dealing with. They only know what Death has told them. Everything after that is pretty much fresh snow, because so few people know about this. [/quote]Like leviathans?may be Baking soda will work this time.
[quote]may be Baking soda will work this time.[/quote]
😀
I wonder if we can infer from this interview that Death is actually dead for real, as completely stupid as that is? What a lame, lame ending to a great character if so. Another one bites the dust.
That’s the thing that troubled me most about the interview. He DOES seem to be saying that Death is dead. I was so sure that was not the case because it’s ridiculous on so many levels. Hah, maybe the series will end with the brothers actually killing God.
I also assume this year’s theme will be meaningless, as was last year’s. Season 10 was supposed to be about the characters realizing who they really are, and I’m not sure what any of them learned except Crowley, who literally stated that Sam helped remind him of who he really was. Was Sam’s realization supposed to be that he really would do anything to save Dean? You know, like the Sam [b]from the first 7 seasons[/b]? Not much of a revelation. And I honestly have no idea what Dean may have learned about himself. That when push comes to shove he couldn’t kill Sam? Shocker!
not sure why everyone thought it wasn’t Death…. Dean did a summoning ritual to summon Death, and Death is a Horseman; now granted he was the most powerful of the Four Horseman. In Season 5 we learned from Crowley that it was rumored that Death could be killed by his own scythe, so kudos to Carver for not screwing up canon on this one. That being said, the entire scene did seem to be a bit “off” so who knows.
Everything these show runners (Carver and Singer) say should be taken with a grain of salt. Carver talked at great length about the maturation of the brother’s relationship in S8 – if he considers their relationship as having matured in any way, shape, or form over the past 3 seasons then the man is in serious need of therapy. The entire “who’s the bigger monster” at the beginning of S10 didn’t amount to much of anything. And, at the start of S10, Singer talked about Dean having to learn again what it was to be a hero. Quite honestly, nothing either of the brothers did this season seemed terribly heroic; and neither of them came out of this season looking good.
I did think it was actually Death, or at least his physical manifestation, but it just seemed far too easy to kill one of the 2 oldest beings in the universe. And he has seemed much too smart to place himself in a position where a Winchester could kill him. He seemed to have a pretty good handle on who the Winchesters are, so it seemed farfetched that he would give to Dean the only thing that could kill him, and have no doubts that Dean would actually use it on Sam. So I thought maybe the scythe couldn’t truly kill him? Hah, guess I was wrong.
as far as everything else in your post, agreed!
[quote] In Season 5 we learned from Crowley that it was rumored that Death could be killed by his own scythe,[/quote]
Only the scythe that they showed as belonging to death in Death Takes a Holiday was actually a sickle, and not the same thing that Death handed off to Dean.
[img]http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130423053209/supernatural/images/thumb/5/50/Death’s_Scythe.jpg/500px-Death’s_Scythe.jpg[/img]
Here’s the Scythe that Death gave to Dean
[img]http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/images/thumb/f/f0/Death’s_ScytheV2.png/350px-Death’s_ScytheV2.png[/img]
They aren’t even remotely the same….so not exactly canon.
Why not? Technically the implement in Dean’s hand is a sickle, not a scythe; a scythe has a long handle, like the one Death is holding.
No, the first one is from Death Takes a Holiday and was described as Death’s actual sickle, and the weapon that could kill him. Then, in Brothers Keeper Death hands Dean a scythe that looks nothing like the implement that was already established as the weapon that could kill Death. That’s not Dean’s hand, it’s Alistair’s I think, he then holds Tessa and another reaper hostage with it.
The first picture is from Two Mintutes to Midnight. That is the scene in the pizzeria with Dean and Death. Look at the background the black and white floor tiles and the checkered table cloths. In Death Takes a Holiday Alistair had a scythe that he used to kill reapers. I don’t know if he ever said it was Deaths own scythe. But it did look the same. Crowley told Dean that the scythe he gave him was rumored to be Death’s own and the only thing that could kill him. I had always believed that Death had reached out to Crowley to get a meeting set up with Dean. He wanted to get the leash off. I always wondered if the scythe could really kill him. I also had always thought that Death had a sickle not a scythe to reap people in fables. Or at least in Dickens A Christmas Carol.
Oh… OK. Well, he’s the one used in Death Takes a Holiday… and that one look different from the other two… but it’s still a sickle. That giant clumsy thing Death handed to Dean in Brother’s Keeper isn’t the same thing that they’ve established is the weapon that Death uses to kill people and the weapon that can kill Death. I am just trying to figure out if that’ was purposeful…. a tell to let us know Death isn’t really dead or if tptb have just been clumsy about established canon. Given the current administration under Carver my money is on the latter.
[img]http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090904211527/supernatural/images/1/13/Alastair_and_the_Breaking_of_the_Seals.jpg[/img]
I, too, was hoping for the former explanation, but fear it’s the latter.
[img]http://orig04.deviantart.net/4758/f/2009/238/6/8/fourth_horseman__death_by_nortenyo.jpg[/img] This is how Death has been portrayed in art.
I DTAH the larger one would have been impractical the way it was used. So maybe Death has different scythe/sickles for different kills?
[img]http://img01.deviantart.net/3651/i/2012/062/2/9/horseman_of_the_apocalypse___death_by_matchack-d4qqbop.jpg[/img] it also makes sense in the episode because in order for Dean to have killed Death with the smaller one he would have had to have engaged in hand to hand combat.
You’re right that as a practical matter they needed a long one for Brothers Keeper. But as far as this:
[quote]maybe Death has different scythe/sickles for different kills?[/quote]
that still raises the question of whether all of them are capable of killing Death. I’m hoping not. BTW, what does this mean?–[quote] DTAH[/quote]
I’m sure it’s obvious and I’ll kick myself when you tell me but I’m drawing a blank. Also, those are really cool pictures of Death.
Death Takes a Holiday also in the bible Death carries a sword.
It’s more about what they’ve already established as canon for Death’s death implement and that big thing he gave to Dean in BK wasn’t it.
Did they ever say it was his only implement? To be honest I don’t remember.
I don’t think it was ever clarified specifically. Basically, we have to take it from what we do know which is what was established in DTAH and TMTM as that’s the only concrete info we have.
No it’s just the only one we have ever seen. Doesn’t mean there aren’t others. Death can also kill someone by brushing his shoulder lightly as a clueless jerk passes him by. He has many methods I’m sure. And only Crowley said that it was rumored to be able to kill Death. Since that didn’t happen we don’t know if that is true.
I hear you. But doesn’t the big ass scythe look more imposing than the little sickle?
I thought it looked clumsy and very hard to use. Wouldn’t it be a hoot if Dean admitted that he had a bad swing and killed Death by accident? Oops!
I don’t know if it had been the smaller weapon Dean never gets close enough. Death hurls him into outer space and kills Sam. Series over…..or until Dean figures out how to get back and resurrect Sam. Cue Movie….
I LIKE it! I wish that had happened. The Dean would have had a good reason to kill death.
Death threatened to kill Sam. You don’t mess with Sam. Everyone knows that. Even Death.
I just get a kick out of the fact that we’re talking about characters being hurled into outer space! Who would have predicted that 9 seasons ago?
😀
Yeah I always wondered why death gave Dean SUCH A HUGE SCYTHE — SICKLE :D:D Why in the hell not the small one really Even Dean looked at the huge monstrous thing Strangley !!??
[quote]not sure why everyone thought it wasn’t Death.[/quote]I did think it was death…
I think for some it was the fact that Death was killed so easily and how the world reacted to Death’s death.
For others it simply does not do that Death had come to collect Sam.Sam is just not worthy for them that Death came to collect him.It just is like drinking scalding water to admit that it was death.
There may be other reasons but these are the major ones.
“It’s tough for me to believe, however Dean will get to that place”
What was that? Does that mean that Dean will admit that he is responsible for some things too? It’s tough for me to believe. 😮
By the way I’ve started watching 10 season under the influence of the people here. 😉 So far not so bad. Can’t say I especially like it, but it might have been much worse, season 9 is a proof. Did Dean really [b]thank[/b] Sam in episod 4, or am I hearing things?
I thought it started off well, then hit a loooong stretch of mostly bad to mediocre episodes (in many of which Sam had little of interest to do or say)- but if you make it through that chunk, I thought most of the last 7 or so episodes were good to great. A couple of them were truly outstanding. Keep us posted!
I understand what you mean, because I’m somewhere in the middle and last 5 or 6 episodes were boring. I can’t say they are bad, they are just not interesting. I mean I’ve watched them this week and I’ve already forgotten most of the details. In earlier seasons such episodes about monsters or humorous episodes always added something to the general story or gave glimpses of the future events. These are mostly meaningless. I hope I’ll like the last third of the season more.
I thought it started off bad and just got worse. Haha!
I’m not a fan of S10 or any Carver season actually.
Yes, he did thank Sam and that was nice to hear. That was after he blamed Sam for Lester though, so that moment of gratitude left a bad taste in my mouth, thank-you or no thank-you.
We got used to Dean blaming Sam for everyting, so that was not surprising, but thanking Sam was something new, at least I don’t remember it had happened before.
Not to be a pessimist, but just wait till you get to Paint it Black….. just wait.
E
Way to take a quote out of context and use it to bash Dean.
Are you saying that you would like Dean to regret not killing Sam instead?
No, I’m afraid of that considering his past behaviour
Yeah, Dean can blame Sam at times for things but he also takes a lot of the blame for things on his own shoulders as well. More times than not. He does not blame Sam for everything as you imply.
The matter is there is a great difference between the Dean of the first seven seasons and the Dean of seasons 8 and 9. I really like the first, as for the second… not so much.
Agreed. He’s no fun any more.
I think maybe 8 out of 23 episodes in S10 are good, I have re watched other seasons more often and enjoyed them immensley. The boys jibs at each other, the jovial fun, even during the rough times seem to have been lost.The boys say they are still happy with the show and they still love their characters Sam & Dean – but some episodes they appear bored or disinterested Would that be right !!??
I really really hope we are all wrong and the writers put in a FANTASTIC S11 :D:D:D
One other thing when you see the recent shots of S11 Ep1 Samual Campbell is there – ???
[quote]but some episodes they appear bored or disinterested[/quote]
If they were bored it’s because they had to play these one dimensional characters for so many episodes. Dean–grim; Sam-worried. It didn’t exactly stretch their acting chops! So even if they weren’t bored, I sure was. Like you, Jen, I missed the give and take, and the sheer FUN, of their relationship from the other seasons.
Also I wondered the same thing about Samuel. Maybe he was just visiting the set?
I miss those day that if it turned out that Sam and Dean disagreed on something that they actually argued about it, talked about it, hashed it out, sometimes more than once. Like in Nightmare, the issue of bringing a gun into the house when they went to question Max again. Sam didn’t want to, Dean did and they sat there in the car arguing about it until it was settled and a compromise was reached. Or how about in season 3 where the boys argued about saving Dean or not saving Dean and that argument pretty much went on all season long, being discussed and fought about over and over and over. Now they just stew in their respective silences, lie to one another or go behind each others back. No discussion, no give and take….. and it’s BORING. When they have this “conflict” between them nowadays it just sits there, lingering, unresolved and worst of all stagnant. Or on the few occasions that they DO manage to discuss the problem we only get shades of Caustic Sam and Dictator Dean, neither one of whom is listening to the other or discussing constructively or saying much of anything helpful or relevant; and neither one is very sympathetic IMO.
You’re right. Under Carver they behave so damn childishly when there’s conflict between them. They seemed more mature in their 20s than they do in their 30s.
And they used to be able to admit their own mistakes and apologised to one another when they were wrong. It completely dissapeared under Carver. And what happened to their trust to one another? I just can’t imagine how it is possible to hunt as a team if you don’t trust your partner.
It seems I got to the interesting episodes at last. Paint it Black was not at all bad, and I really liked Inside Man and Werther Project. Can’t say the same about previous 10 or so episodes, they weren’t interesting, and mostly blended in one indistinguishable chunk with some of them stuck out as worse than mediocre. Episodes with Charlie seemed completely out of character. I can’t imagine how a nice indie girl can be transformed into a blend of Mata Hari and James Bond, who turned out to be a more efficient fighter than Joe, born and trained into the job. The same with episodes about Novak’s daughter. I understand the importance of Castiel’s understanding how his grand goals have ruined human lives, but it seems to me that one episode would have been enough. Claire as a character didn’t cause any interest at all.
Thanks for sharing your view on the season. It is interesting to hear your take as a person watching while not subject to the hype, previews, comments. Your comment reflects the views stated by many of us. Some people were turned off by Paint It Black because of the romance back story and the makeup wearing nun amongst other things. Inside Man and Werther project were my two favorite episodes. Charlie apparently developed her fighting skills in OZ. I personally do not want to see Claire again and some of us shared your opinion that one episode to deal with that storyline would have been sufficient. Tuning in for Season 11?
Yes, most likely. I haven’t watched the last episodes yet, though. But, honestly I’m fed up with ongoing conflict and blame game, which Carver seems to be so fond of.
OK, I’m going to disagree about Paint It Black, which I really didn’t like, but I LOVED Inside Man and Werther. They were excellent. And I totally agree with your thoughts about Charlie and Clair. Their episodes were in that big chunk which I found mostly bad to boring. I’m curious to hear your thoughts about the last 5-6 episodes, so keep on going!
[quote] OK, I’m going to disagree about Paint It Black[/quote]
Wha!!!!! Has the world gone mad? Sorry samandean, I’m going to have to veto your begrudging acceptance of Paint it Black, [b]VETO[/b]! It was appallingly bad and is in my top five worst episodes of all time along with Bloodlines, Taxi Driver, Mannequin III: The Reconning, and Man’s Best Friends with Benefits (or The Nepotism duo does beastiality and racism.)
OH MY GOD! You misread my post. I disagreed with disgruntled who thought it “was not at all bad.” I said I “really didn’t like” it. Maybe you thought I meant I “didn’t really like” it, which sounds like grudging acceptance. What I should have said was “I hated it.” 😀 I’m in the middle of re-watching Season 10 but I will NOT be watching that one again. That’s one precious hour of my life I will never get back, and I’m no spring chicken! Whew, glad I cleared that up! 🙂 But I have to admit I laughed when I read this:
[quote]Wha!!!!! Has the world gone mad?[/quote]
Well…. thank the good lord!! I always knew you had taste. :D:D:D:D
PIB was widely disliked on IMDb, Spoilertv, and Supernatural.tv. Those who like that episode would appear to be in the minority.
I found PIB to be the most boring, horrible episode of SPN I have ever seen. It was bloody awful. It was after that episode that I decided to start taping the rest of the season and watching something else on Wednesdays at 9. I didn’t even finish the episode, which was a first for me. I, literally, flipped my tv to L&O: SVU and just watched the rest of that episode, which was much better than PIB. I don’t even know how PIB ended.
The ONLY good thing about the episode is that Sam figured out the case and saved the day and Dean, and openly defied Dean’s directives and did the opposite of what he wanted Sam to do. I thought that the writers were attempting to write some subtext with that one, but successive episodes kept pounding the “wrong” of what Sam was doing using TBOTD over and over again that what happened in PIB got lost pretty quick. Also, that little bit of nice writing for Sam didn’t overshadow how utterly awful that episode was. As soon as they showed the Renaissance era hot chick and her ratty haired beau in soft focus, they lost me.
[b]**Disgruntled ex-viewer!!! This comment will spoil you until you’ve finished the season, so you may want to give it a pass!**[/b]
You know, it’s funny about Charlie. I hated what they did with her character by turing her into the “smartest person in the room” (an actual quote, unfortunately), and making her an UBER fighter simply because she had gone to OZ and participated in some kind of civil war there, which is so preposterous it’s not even worth mentioning. She became so mired in Mary Suedom that I couldn’t begin to take her seriously any more and she downright irritated me. So, you’d think I’d have been happy to have seen her killed off, but I wasn’t. Her death on the show was just about the lowest one they’ve done since killing off Sarah for five minutes of “feels.” It was cheap, unearned and unnecessary. How’s that for conflicted?
I guess I’m in the tiny minority of viewers who had no problem with her death, and not just because I couldn’t stand the character. They left themselves nowhere else to go with her once they turned her into a hunter. She was never going to go into the hunter business by herself, so she logically would have been constantly back in the brothers’ orbit. But she just wasn’t convincing AT ALL as a hunter. Even the way she was cowering in the bathroom at the end was completely at odds with the world-weary, kick-ass hunter she was portrayed as in BOTD. I do agree that they were wrong to have her own stupidity cost her her life. Someone who was portrayed as BRILLIANT BEYOND COMPARE would not have made such a hare-brained move as taking off on her own. But her death did serve the purpose of setting Dean off on his Styne rampage, so it served more of a purpose than poor Sarah’s death.
I hated her death because it was unnecessary and manipulative. I agree that the writing of her had backed them into a corner with the character; she couldn’t be a hunter, it just doesn’t work, she’s too small and frail looking so what were they going to do with her after her preposterous and unrealistic build up in the Oz episode and BOTD? She kind of had to go. But killing her off by making her supremely stupid and negating every single thing they built up about her smarts and “experience” in the previous several episodes? That pissed me off. It was the kind of writing that they’ve subjected Sam to so much in the Carver years were his inexplicable and unexplained actions fly in the face of his established character traits and his years of experience. And to kill her off to motivate Dean? Why? We were told over and over again that Dean was in trouble, that Dean was getting worse, that Dean was doomed, that he was loosing himself again and that the mark was taking over and his days where numbered. Why did we need Charlie to “motivate” Dean? Why wasn’t his meltdown just a natural progression of what they had been telling us would happen anyway for [b]35[/b] episodes? Why did Dean need motivating? If the writers had done a better job of showing us Dean’s descent, his inexorable slide back into demon hood, they wouldn’t have needed to kill Charlie off to motivate Dean, and so maybe RT wouldn’t have felt the need to blow her character up out of all proportion before she died.
I have 2 theories for why they felt they needed to kill Charlie the way they did. 1. Because her slaughter really makes the Stynes the worst of the worst, so we wouldn’t really feel like Dean was evil for killing a dozen or so people. 2. Because then he could be so very angry and hateful towards Sam that we would believe he really just might kill him. Those scenes at the funeral pyre and at the end of Brothers Keeper showed a Dean we’ve NEVER seen before- he truly seemed to dislike or even hate Sam enough that he might agree to murder him, and TPTB wanted to give him some justification for feeling that way. Charlie’s death (which could be “blamed” on Sam) was that justification. I think it’s part of them not wanting to go all out in portraying MOC Dean as “bad.” That’s my theory anyway!
Your take is sadly accurate most likely. The way the writers coddled Dean during the entire MoC storyline basically killed it off. They wanted their cake and eat it too…..They wanted Dean as a demon, doing questionable things, tearing up the scenery, committing atrocities like demons are supposed to. But then they also wanted him to be Dean, the hero who does not commit atrocities and can be forgiven or excused from any “bad” act he commits; the writers wanted to make sure Dean appeared justified and forgivable. The two things are diametrically opposed and cancel each other out. Basically, the writers created a catch 22 between what they wanted to do with the MoC and their desire to protect Dean at the same time, and the success of the story was the victim…. so it didn’t work, it couldn’t have worked. I am still a little bit in shock that they spent 35 episodes on that arc when it was so clear that it was flawed in it’s basic conception from the get go. So, to try and help it along the writers created the rapists and drug dealers, the assassins and Lester and the Stynes to give Dean something to kill so that we could be appropriately “shocked” but not hold hit against him too much, to let him be justified in his actions, and basically keep him from doing anything that would have made the MoC story real or viable.
Having said all that, for me, the problem with making the Stynes “the worst of the worst” by having them kill Charlie was negated by how meaningless they were in the grand scheme of things. The writers wanted us to be bowled over by THE STYNES!! heir of the Frankenstein legend! Dun-dun-dun! But they never gave the concept, the characters or their back story it’s due. They were a mere blip, insignificant, and pathetically easy for Dean to dispatch. Consequently they were unable to serve the purpose for which they were originally written. They were introduced as this great threat, but then they weren’t any real threat at all. These are the people responsible for killing off Charlie? The Stynes weren’t worthy of being at the crux of such a big event as killing off an important and well liked (well liked by many if not especially by me) character. So Charlie’s death fell completely flat for me. It was unearned and grossly manipulative.. I think we were supposed to have FEELS and be SAD. Well, basically I was just pissed that these nothing characters, poorly conceived and even more poorly executed and lead by a one armed moron, managed to kill off Uber Hunter.
I agree that we’ve never seen Dean like that before; his words at Charlie’s grave were beyond harsh and I’ll bet it is NEVER addressed again. The fact that he wished his brother dead will be swept under the rug. And maybe I’m jaded, but I never believed for even one single moment that Dean was going to kill either Sam OR Cas. For me there was zero tension in either of those confrontations because I KNEW with every fiber of my being that the show would NEVER go there because this writing team has proven that they are too conservative to do something so risky. They’ve only ever taken the path of least resistance during the Carver years, so I knew something really risky or controversial was OUT. So all of the build up to Brother’s Keeper, with killing Charlie, the Stynes, Cas and Deans fight, Dean’s harsh words and the brother confrontation generated none of the tension that it was supposed to to make me believe that Dean would actually even consider killing Sam….None of it worked for me, well except for Jared exuding pain all over the place, that worked for me but that’s about it. OK, Holy LONG! This response took on a life of it’s own!
I agree about the Stynes. they gave them such a big build up and then- boom, they’re all dead. It’s almost like TPTB originally intended for that to be a longer arc. About this:
[quote] I never believed for even one single moment that Dean was going to kill either Sam OR Cas.[/quote]
maybe I’m a sucker but up until “close your eyes Sammy” I was thinking holy crap, they’re going there! Maybe it’s a testament to Jensen’s acting- he just seemed so cold and hostile towards Sam- but I fell for it. This despite the fact that TPTB spent all season NOT going there with MOC Dean. So I guess I am a sucker!
Believe me, I wanted to think he’d do it, I wanted to believe they’d go there, but I just didn’t. I remember how thrilling and horrifying No Rest for the Wicked was. I remember sitting there thinking, “they won’t kill Dean, they can’t kill Dean” and being utterly stunned that they did. Kripke took that risk and then wrote a plausible way out of it. This crew? not so much.
If Dean was shown to be under the influence of the mark against his will, really battling it’s effects against his better judgement (instead of having him basically be Dean, only more grumpy, or even ENJOYING the effects of the mark) then maybe they could have gone down the road of Dean killing Sam. Then we could have seen that it was a direct consequence of the Mark itself and therefore forgivable. I dearly would have loved to have seen Dean on earth, fighting to get Sam back. Sam hooking up with Bobby in heaven trying to get back to Dean and Cas going back and forth, possibly defying the powers of heaven once again for the brothers. Much better than THE DARKNESS!!!! IMO, which feels like a bad patch job covering over the conclusion of a storyline that clearly wasn’t working.
For me, they did way too much to telegraph Dean not killing Sam. I mean you don’t have a major character (Cain) stating that first you will kill Crowley, then Castiel then you will kill your brother and have both Crowley and Cas healthy as horses and try to sell me that Dean is going to kill Sam. They could have had Dean attack both Crowley and Cas and leave them on the verge of death or actually dead (since no one stays dead on the show) and then had the confrontation with Sam. That would, at least, have followed the prophecy and given more of a sense that Dean could kill Sam. Heck they could have had Dean blame the “deaths” of Crowley and Cas on Sam to stoke his belief that Sam being dead is an acceptable thing or at least an inevitable thing. Killing Charlie just didn’t cut it for me. I mean Sam didn’t consider killing Dean because Kevin was dead, and that was more on Dean’s head than Charlie’s death.
The best way would have been showing Dean enjoying the Mark after killing Cain. Heck, the Stynes could have played into that if they had used Dean and the Mark for their own purposes. The Stynes would have been more relevant, Dean would have known that Cyrus really wasn’t part of the killing so killing him would have been less excusable. I think the issue was they didn’t want to show Dean as being bad or wrong, so they never showed Dean doing anything that couldn’t be excused. They went really far with Sam killing the nurse in season four. Perhaps they realized they went too far then and don’t want to repeat that mistake, but this whole story would have been far more powerful if Dean had really been turned into a danger to the world and done truly bad actions. Singing bad karaoke does NOT count in my book.
You know, I never got that whole Cain prophecy thing…Crowely, Cas, Brother… why did he say it in that way? Why all three of them? Why that specific order? Seeing as how the Mark of Cain was about Fratricide why did Cas and Crowley even have to enter into it? Cain told Dean he was “living his life in reverse.” Well if that’s true, when did Cain kill his [i]Crowley[/i] and his [i]Cas[/i]? Did he do it with the blade while wearing the mark too? That was the one line from Executioner’s Song that made me go ‘huh?’ I think it was just bad dialogue; and attempt to build up tension and fear for our main hero’s and they never had any intention on following through with that prophecy. So, the ridiculousness of the prophecy itself is what kept me from ever believing that Sam was in any real danger; I knew Dean wouldn’t kill Cas in their confrontation because Crowley was still alive, and I knew Dean wouldn’t kill Sam because Crowely and Cas were still alive. Now, with the inclusion of THE DARKNESS!!!! it appears that the MoC wasn’t about being a mark indicating fratricide either. No, now it’s a key and being a mark indicating the death of a brother at a brother’s hand (as we’ve all thought for millennia) is wrong. So the whole thing gets dropped rendering the entire plot meaningless. A year and a half of wasted time if you ask me. TPTB keep introducing new plot points that annihilate old plot points. I just wish the writers would have the balls to actually DO something with this show; I mean, hell, it’s an 11 year old show, it basically can’t do anything wrong (other than be awful and poorly written that is). They could and should be doing all manner of experimental things right now, pushing the boundaries instead of sinking into formulaic mediocrity.
you’re right; that was kind of silly. Killing Sam made sense but how would Cain know how Dean interacted with either Crowley or Castiel?
Crowley brought Dean to Cain in the first place, so that makes sense. Cain also talked briefly with Cas who came with Dean to find Cain, so I guess he figured it out?
The problem with the prophecy is that Cain made a direct connection between his life and Dean’s and then dictated that Dean would kill Crowley, Cas and then Sam. But to my knowledge Cain didn’t HAVE a Crowley or a Cas in his life, so how can Dean be living Cain’s life in reverse and still be required by this prophecy to kill Crowley and Cas BEFORE his kills Sam? It’s a completely arbitrary addition and it makes no sense. And for me it killed all of the tension that I assume that they were trying to build up about Dean being a threat to those who were important to him. Crowley and Dean didn’t even have one single scene together after Executioner’s song, so how much danger could he have been in from Dean? And if Crowley wasn’t in danger then no one else was either.
I totally agree that the “prophecy” of the order of the deaths took any tension out of the idea that Sam was in real danger of being killed by Dean. Since Executioner’s Song was a pretty good episode, I wonder if they were planning to have Dean go on a rampage going through Crowley and Cas and then for whatever reason decided that killing Charlie and the Stynes was a better choice. If they thought that, they were wrong.
It would have been pretty cool if Dean had killed all three of them, then season 11 would have been about fixing that mess; far more interesting to me than THE DARKNESS!!!! Can you imagine them trying to justify resurrecting Crowley? But if Rowena had taken over hell in Crowley’s absence and was ten times the menace, I am sure we could have seen them fighting for the devil they knew.
agreed… based upon Demon Dean/MoC Dean’s actions in S9/S10, there was no way he was going to kill Sam, so the whole scene, while wonderfully acted by Jared and Jensen, lacked most of the tension they were aiming for. Dean needs to go a whole lot further off the rails, and a whole lst earlier in S10, for me to even buy in to the possibility that he could ever kill Sam.
I disagree that Charlie’s death could be blamed on Sam in any way, she was the target of the Stynes from the moment she had found the book. But now I’m a little bit apprehensive to watch two last episodes, but I’ll watch them anyway, too late to stop 🙂
I don’t think samandean thinks Sam is to blame in any way, and neither do I. That’s why she put the words “blame” in quotes. After Charlie’s death the boards lit up like a christmas tree vilifying Sam for Charlie’s death and laying the blame for it entirely at his feet like Charlie herself wasn’t a moron who facilitated her own death by being stupid. Dean wasn’t mentioned as the sole reason Sam, Charlie, Crowley and Cas were doing what they were doing in the first place either, cause you know, why blame Dean for things he actually DOES, when you can turn that all around and make up reasons to blame Sam. You couldn’t visit any site and not see unmitigated Sam hate literally everywhere. This was the only place that had any support for Sam and even here the Sam blame game wasn’t absent.
That’s interesting every place I visited after the Charlie incident hardly anyone was blaming Sam. I think most veiwers blamed Charlie and the lame way the writers had her die.
The blame really does fall on the writers, it was so sloppily done. I guess I went to the wrong sites (or the nasty ones at least) I was looking for reviews. I should know better. Some people were defending Sam, but so many more were slamming him and the posters who were trying to defend him. I came scuttling back here quick. At least here, even if they felt Sam was in the wrong and should bear some of the blame posters were polite about it.
Sorry BoGirle this hadn’t appeared when I posted my first comment. Agreed
In my experience there is some hate for all characters everywhere you go. If you are a Sam fan. Sam hate will undoubtedly sting the most and stand out from the rest. Same for Cas and Dean fan’s. Some sites lean to Sam others to Dean. I haven’t seen a huge amount of Sam blame for Charlie. People are mostly upset about how ridiculously it was done. Making Charlie look responsible for her own death because of her own stupid and OOC decisions.. I think the character deserved a better send off no matter how anyone felt about her. But I think there is room to examine the motivations and the moral issues involved in ALL of the characters actions. Sam as well as Dean.
E’s post is correct. I put blame in quotes because IMO Sam doesn’t deserve one iota of blame for Charlie’s death. She was an adult, super smart, uber hunter who made the decision to help Sam even though she was fully aware of the possible risks. Sam took steps to make sure she was protected but she made the foolish decision to leave the safe location Sam had arranged and go to that motel. I would have responded earlier but I’ve been traveling much of the day!
I see your point and agree completely, but what I wanted to say, that she was killed not because she agreed to help Sam, the decision to kill her had been taken much earlier and nothing had changed since then. Moreover, in all probability she whould have been killed much earlier, if Sam hadn’t “pulled her into it” and hadn’t taken measures to protect her. I’ve watched the Prisoner, and the fact that Sam blames himself is sad. And why Dean even for the minute didn’t put the blame on himself? He might as well. She went for that damned book only because of him.
Agreed!
[quote]Paint it Black was not at all bad,[/quote]
REALLY!?!??! I thought it was atrocious. I was embarrassed by it. Read Alice’s review, she felt the same. The only good part was that Sam “disobeyed” a direct order from the dictator…um I mean Dean and saved the day. He then implied that Dean shouldn’t complain, he should just say thank you. That was the only good part for me. As soon as the Renaissance era nun showed up with her harlequin lover I just about lost it. And the other nun, the one in the present, the one Dean thought was “hot,” was just about the worst actress on the planet. They used to be so good about hiring guest actors who really brought substance to the show… so what’s happening lately? T&A for the most part unfortunately.
I agree with you about Inside Man and Werther Project though. And Executioner’s Song was excellent as well. Robert Beren’s is my new fave.
And yeah… Charlie was utterly ruined. She became the textbook example of why a Mary Sue pisses everyone off. She was so charming and real in her first episode, and then it all went down hill with Oz.
Guess, that showing Sam as more intelligent and having a character AT LAST, as it used to be during the first seven seasons was the main reason I didn’t find this episod that bad.
That’s true, and it was the first episode in probably 5 or 6 that even remembered he was there. Still though, it was BAAAAAAD.
I agree. The irony is that Carver was the one who set out to bring the boys through some personal growth causing maturity. I hope we see a change in Season 11.
Their inability to communicate with each other as you described particularly in Season 9 was a big part of why it was the worse season for me.
Ditto! (how’s that for pithy? which I just ruined by adding this…oh, crap! :p)
OK, I’ve watched two episodes more. As for Angel Heart, I’m under impression that the story has been taken somewhere from teen funfiction, trimmed and pruned a little bit, and then filmed. Can’t say anything more.
As for The Dark Dynasty, I’ve got much to say and it won’t be cute. So, what do we have? A blend of Mata Hari and James Bond in some inexplicable way turnes back into nice and naive girl, got irritated by Rowena’s nagging and stupidly takes off, knowing that she is the object of the hunt of the Stynes. Then she simply goes to a motel! I’ve got only one question here. How did she manage to escape the whole Styne family all over the world before? Moreover, that brilliant fighter, who already killed a member of the Stynes family gets killed by heavily wounded one arm man? Inconceivable.
But the last straw is heavy implications that Charlie’s death may be Sam’s fault. Let me put it right. Charlie having beaten by Dean and seeing how bad he is getting, decides to go for A Book of Damned. The moment she finds the book she is on the radar of the Stynes, they begin to hunt her in order to kill, later she kills one of the Stynes and that hunt becames personal/ From the moment she finds the book Stynes want to kill her and never stop hunting her. The only person who cares about her safety is Sam, who places her in the warded building where Stynes are unable to find her. She runs off, gets on the Stynes radar and gets killed. But in the episode it is heavily implied that she is killed because she agreed to help Sam. But it is simply not the case. She was kiiled not because she worked on the deciphering the book, she was killed because she had found it. The Stynes didn’t even know, that she was working on its deciphering. But I’m not surprised that Dean blames Sam and Sam blames himself for her death. That is quite in their character, under Carver direction anyway, and they are starting to remind me the Bourbons, who “forgotten nothing, forgiven nothing, learned nothing”
Not to mention that Cas didn’t heal her because why? He had his grace back and was fully powered (or as much as he could be after the fall). How far could she have gone in the time she left the warded building and her death? Several hours? Didn’t Cas get Sam out of hell several weeks later? Didn’t Cas resurrect Dean after 4 MONTHS? Didn’t angels resurrect Adams’ BURNED BODY after a YEAR? I just love how they glossed that whole thing over; no mention of Cas’s healing powers.. nope…we’re not going there, we are just going to ignore the canyon sized plot hole (plot voids, eilf calls them) in the hopes that the fans won’t notice. The nepotism duo strikes again; they are just the worst. Kripke would simply never have stood for such sloppy and unsupported writing.
Can you tell me what is nepotism duo? I just watched the show and never got into the details about authors, reviews, fan reaction and things like this.
The Nepotism Duo refers to the writing team of Eugenie Ross-Leming and Brad Buckner. They have always been a team and have co-credits on every Supernatural episode they’ve ever written. They’re called The Nepotism Duo because Eugenie Ross-Leming is married to Bob Singer, writer, director and Executive Producer of the show, and highest ranking member of The Powers That Be. Singer’s been with the show since day 1 and wields a LOT of power. It’s been speculated that he’s really the show runner in all but name since Eric Kripke left in season 5 and that the lions share of all of the decisions are his. Eugenie and Brad’s scripts are sub-par on a good day and they probably wouldn’t be writing for the show at all if it weren’t for Eugenie and Bob being a married couple hence the nepotism. They only wrote one episode in season 1, Route 666, the one about the racist truck, then they left the show and did not return until season 7, after Kripke’s departure. They’ve penned such gems as:
Taxi Driver – or the one where canon means absolutely nothing and rogue reapers were introduced
Man’s Best Friends with Benefits – or beastiality and racist witches
I’m No Angel – or Cas sleeps with April bringing up unfortunate consent issues and a fire storm of anger from Destiel fans
Holy Terror – or Gadreel kills Kevin
King of the Damned – or Mark fueled Dean kills Abbadon, but not Crowley for inexplicable reasons
The Hunter Games – or Claire…nuff said
Paint it Black – or hot nuns in the worst episode in years
Dark Dynasty – or the huge continuity mess and a dead Charlie
These aren’t the only episodes, just the worst ones IMO. There are a few that I moderately enjoyed like A Little Slice of Kevin for example, but I set the bar so low for this pairs episodes that it only doesn’t have to completely suck for me to count it as a win. And looking back over this list, it seems to me that this writing pair kill off a lot of key characters; Kevin, Charlie, Abbadon, they gave Dean a daughter then killed her too. They often write about witches, and not at all well. In my own personal top five worst episodes of all time list, 3 of the episodes are by Ross-Leming/Bruckner. If I was to expand my list to top 10 worst, the inclusion of Ross-Leming/Bruckner episodes would run at about 60-70%. Basically, they’re awful. Anyhoo, that’s my jaded and somewhat caustic opinion.
I would agree with your jaded and caustic opinion; Ross-Leming/Buckner are just awful.
:p
Oh, I understand it better now. Yes, these episodes are far from good. Route 666 seemed to me as one of the worst in the whole show, but now The Dark Dynasty beats it. And I always considered Taxi Driver as the lost opportunity, I mean the second trial should have been even more dramatic and intense than the first and the third, instead it was outright boring. And the material was so promising, going to Hell and rescuing the soul, it might have been one of the most memorable episodes of the show, and the only scene I remember is Sam’s watch hanging on the peg. Let alone the inconstituencies with all the previous seasons. Why did the army of angels have to seige Hell, if there are rogue Reapers, who are able to smuggle anybody? Didn’t both Castiel and Crowly foolishly spend the whole season to find an access to the Purgatory, or the King of Hell didn’t have the information, the third rate demon had?
The only good thing is a fire storm of anger from Destiel fans though 😀
Yeah… their reaction to Cas sleeping with April was hysterical…..:p
Then it’s a good episode…:D
Yeah… the Nepotism duo are a nightmare when it comes to canon and consistency. I HATED the rogue reapers, hated them. Not just that but they made reapers a class of angel when they never had been before. And yeah, rogue reapers pretty much negated all of season 6’s quest in trying to find purgatory only to be told that it was “hell adjacent” and just behind that rock…. just roll it out of the way, easy peasy. So, why did those dragons have to go to all that trouble with those sacrificial virgins and complex spells to raise The Mother of All from purgatory when she could have just left at any time with a reaper through the back door? And Dean, hitching a ride out with Benny? when a reaper could have just ferried him out no mess, no foul? Why were the Leviathan trapped there when they could just take advantage of a rogue reaper and waltz right out of Purgatory any time they liked? Hell, the Leviathan could have just eaten a reaper, gained all it’s knowledge and power and gone in and out like Purgatory had a revolving door. They pretty much made it sound like reapers went in and out of hell, purgatory and heaven all the time. Taxis Driver is just about the worst. This writing team just comes up with whatever quick fix works best for their story in that moment in time and they never check to see if it works within the context of what already exists on the show, makes sense for the actual plot or the character, or even give any thought to basic logic. The result is episodes like Taxi Driver and Dark Dynasty, filled with head scratchers, bad characterizations and complete fails in logic and canon. And they get handed some of the most key episodes too. Being married to the boss certainly has it’s perks.
Oh, and don’t even get me started on the fact that Charlie stood there in that bathroom cowering like a child, while Stumpy Styne broke down the door to kill her. Where were all her ninja skills in that moment? Hadn’t she killed Jacob Styne? Stumpy’s brother who was far more competent and healthy than Stumpy, all while injured no less. And she had that computer, she had just smashed it into the sink, why didn’t she smash it into Stumpy’s head instead? He had one arm, was probably dying of blood loss, how hard could it have been for her, uber, ninja hunter that she was, to get the upper hand? She took on two armed foes and beat them both earlier in TBOFD, so what happened in the mean time?
hey, Stumpy Styne is my line! :D:D:D What a wasted and illogical thing to happen to Charlie; I didn’t care that much either way if she lived or died, but wouldn’t it have made a lot more sense for the Stynes to take her hostage until the Winchesters gave them the Book of the Damned? If the book was that important to them, and they knew either Charlie or the Winchesters had it, that would have made more sense. But, then again, if they were the Frankensteins, they come from a lineage of flat headed monsters with light bulbs sticking out of each side of their necks.
And something else occurred to me. Charlie found the book in a monastery or some such after traipsing the globe, breaking into museums etc. to find it. Then the Styne’s corner her and are all like “the book is ours! Its our legacy!” Um, then what was it doing in a monastery in Spain all these years? It appears that the Stynes didn’t even HAVE the book. They should have thanked Charlie for finding it. They have a pretty big nerve being proprietary over something they weren’t even in possession of. I wonder if Rowena is now on the Styne’s hit list (if there are any left that is) seeing as she now as the book. I hope she uses the spells in there to annihilate the lot of them.
Hey Stumpy! I think you forgot something.
[img]http://templeofgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/eldon-arm.jpg[/img]
I’ve wathced the finale at last and have somwhat mixed impressions. On one hand, the incredible acting with every phrase, every look, every gesture being perfect. On the other hand, [b]LAME[/b] explanation which makes one and a half season pointless. If the Mark of Cain were actually the simbol of one of the most atrocious deeds known to humans, everything which happened whould have made sense. But, it turned out, that the nature of the Mark is not fratricide, but some amoral force, which is simply the absence of morality. OK, but then logically, in that case Dean shouldn’t feel the urge to kill his brother. If some amoral force was sipping through the Mark, then what Dean should be experiencing is the losing of ability to distinguish between the right and the wrong. His behaviour should be something like the behaviour of souless Sam, that is he should be pragmatic, calculating, disredarding any collateral damage, acting only to his own advantage. But for one season and a half we had seen a different Dean, we had seen Dean who gradually going down the road leading to fratricide: from a killing machine taking pleasure from killing, to a killing machine ready to kill indiscriminately, to a killing machine coming close to killing his friend. It just doesn’t make any sense, why does the amoral force make him do it? What’s the advantage? Moreover, Dean should be displaying the lost of ability to distinguish between good and evil, but in the finale we see that he hasn’t lost that ability, he understands that getting Rudy killed is bad, he understands that to pass on the Mark to somebody else is bad, but at the same time he is willing to kill Sam? I’m afraid I’m starting to lose the last shreds of logic here.
This is the way the show goes now. They write themselves into a corner, realize that it isn’t working then dump and run. They did that in season 9 when they reduced the resolution of the brother conflict down to trite one liners that really didn’t address their issues at all or resolve anything. The logical conclusion of the MoC story was that Dean would be driven to kill his brother; that is what the MoC signifies, that is what Cain told Dean he would do, that it what they’ve been insinuating for 35 episodes would happen. Then all of a sudden they realize that they aren’t willing to have Dean kill Sam, that they can’t take the story to its natural and telegraphed conclusion, so they dump it by introducing THE DARKNESS!!!! which changes the scope of everything we’ve seen for a year and a half, in an irritating “Ha! It’s not what you thought it was!” moment. Carver really has confused “game changer” with “cop out.” My guess is that we won’t hear that much more about the fact that Dean wished Sam was dead, or how Dean feels about how the mark affected him or what it made him do at all. And I am pretty sure that he won’t be reflecting on his choices or the effects of those choices either.
I think if he doesn’t feel remorse for his choices, it will be difficult to understand for a loooot of people. Trying to make him look good when he is not in the hope the audience will forget, will do him a disservice. Me as an example. I really liked him for what he was (I don’t know for sure who I liked more) until the authors began to portray him as the only and impeccable hero, which he is not.
Season 11, faster, please! I’m just so friggin’ egxoited! :):D;)