Official CW Press Release for Supernatural 10.12
Here’s the press release on episode 12.
SUPERNATURAL “About a Boy” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV) DEAN IS TURNED INTO HIS 14 YEAR OLD SELF — Looking to get Dean (Jensen Ackles) out of the bunker, Sam (Jared Padalecki) finds a case for him and Dean to investigate – people are disappearing into thin air with only their clothes left behind. Sam and Dean suspect fairies or angels, but the truth turns out to be much more shocking – Hansel (guest star Mark Acheson), from Hansel and Gretel lore, is kidnapping people and turning them into their younger selves to placate the evil witch (guest star Lesley Nicol). Unfortunately, Dean finds this information out the hard way after he becomes Hansel’s next victim and reverts to his 14 year old self. Serge Ladouceur directed this episode written by Adam Glass (#1011). Original airdate 2/3/2015.
So this is a deagning of Dean episode. Dylan Everett has been reported to be on set, so he will be repeating his role as young Dean. Will Dean only age physically? Or will he be 14 mentally as well? So now he’s back to being 14 or will they bump his age up to 16 the way they did in Bad Boys? Are you looking forward to a deaged Dean? Let us know.
Mixed feelings on this one. I really kinda hoped it would be about Sam de-aged. Hansel??? Not feeling it to be honest. Surely there are other MOW they could feature? Fingers crossed it will be good but I keep flashing back to that Zeus episode. Yikes. And the kid they are using to play Dean lately? Good actor but I don’t think he looks 14. 16 if he’s a day…
I remember that I used to want an episode where Sam or Dean would be de-aged but now… doesn’t feel right.
I think that a de-aging story should be a bit sentimental too.
I hope that this episode won’t be about teaching Sam how to be a father or a big brother.
I think your safe on that aspect San. At least I hope so. With the way this entire season is running tho, I’d have to say it’s any bodies guess. Like I said in my earlier post – I’m just not feeling this one. But hey! They’ve fooled us before and pulled really good ones out of lame sounding episodes. Fingers crossed. *silent prayer to Chuck*
I might have been more enthusiastic about the premise of the episode if a younger actor had been cast as Dean (or Sam).
Dylan Everett was born c. 1995 and Jared was born in 1982. How believable will it be that people think de-aged Dean is Sam’s son?
The Winchesters are supposed to be famous in certain circles so I wonder what motivated Hansel to choose Dean.
Another Dean centric episode?
Did Jared run over Carver’s mother or something?!
I think they have been reading Dean fanfic.
I think the last person who gave a damn about Sam was Sera Gamble. When she left there was no one who cared to even give peak at Sam’s mindset, outside of a line or two in the last episode of the season (Sam’s speech in sacrifice and his one line about waking up seeing himself kill Kevin). And they only do that so they can pretend that Sam is still an actual character instead if a cardboard figure to be used to give more layers to Dean.
Hey I’m with you Sam girls on this one. I was actually looking forward to it being an episode involving a younger or de-aged (I hate that phrase) Sam. Somehow though I suspect this is going to be a strong one for Sam. Ugh. Still can’t wrap my head around Hansel. Really? There aren’t other more intriguing monsters? Grimm Fairy Tales??? Well, at least it isn’t a werewolf or a vampire. Gotta count your blessings where you find them! 🙂
Hey I’m with you Sam girls on this one. I was actually looking forward to it being an episode involving a younger or de-aged (I hate that phrase) Sam. Somehow though I suspect this is going to be a strong one for Sam. Ugh. Still can’t wrap my head around Hansel. Really? There aren’t other more intriguing monsters? Grimm Fairy Tales??? Well, at least it isn’t a werewolf or a vampire. Gotta count your blessings where you find them! 🙂
It would be difficult to do a younger Sam because Colin Ford made the role his own and IMO recasting in this case would not work and unless they do a pre-Stanford teenage Sam then I cannot see it unless Sam is a toddler.
I think this episode has a lot of potential.
Real original Grimm stories are not for the children really and as this is Supernatural. Can’t wait to see Sam’s reaction to young Dean tbh and the brothers interaction could be really hilarious.
First when I heard about this episode I didn’t start to guess what it is about nor expect anything. And now I am exited. I want to know in which situation Dean is turned and I see Sam taking a new role in this. I mean he sees his big brother young. I would know my reaction if my big brother turned to his young self.
Dean turned to young on this case or other IS NOT making it Dean centric episode. I see this more MOTW episode and both brothers, Sam as a strong adult is a part of it.
Anyway, I am exited. Dean was sort of in same position when Sam switched bodies with the teenager, and I think little change as different actor is playing Sam/Dean with the real ones.
Exited! 🙂
– Lilah
I think this has potential too. Adam Glass has a real ability to make MOTW episodes feel different. Also Hansel & Gretel is one of the Grimms’ best stories for weird horror.
are you kidding…I love this idea…as a sam girl…holy moly….all his life sam has been the one who’s been parented and for the first time ever he gets a chance…finally. i’m ok with him getting a better understanding of it as we all should….we all should know what it’s like to be a parent to better understand our own…and it may revolve around dean turning into a boy, but it’s jared we get to see on screen. we haven’t had an episode like this since the curious case of dean Winchester which I loved because it was mostly jared….now we’ve gotten a few eps where Jensen has just been on…so I think it’s great that jared gets to do another like that….besides Jensen gets a few days off and I get to bask in all the jared glory….it’s a win win if you ask me. 😉
And who is going to understand Sam ? why has Sam always got to ‘learn’ about Dean’s role but not the other way round it was not Sam’s fault he was born younger or that Dean put himself into the role of older brother perhaps with more intensity than Sam wanted or that John gave Dean responsibilty for him, that was between John and Dean .
No doubt Colin made it his own but if Show is ever going to do a young Sam episode they are giving to have to recast the part just like they had to from Ridge Canipe. This could bea really great episode – I just hope they keep it Grimm Fairy Tale dark. Will younger Dean still bear the MOC? Or does the spell revert them to their younger self as they would be at that age? Will Dean be a man in his younger body or just young Dean. Either way Sam will have to put up with a teenaged Dean. So many possibilities. Poor Sammy!!!
No offence to Ridge but it was easier to recast Dean where as Colin empitomized young Sam and frankly going by Bad Boys their idea of young Sam is ludicrous . Colin was lighting in a bottle when he was cast as young Sam.
thinking on it…it’s just another case of the boys walking in ea other’s shoes….if there is a lesson in there, it’s not just for sam….for dean will understand what it’s been like for sam as well.
I don’t think that Dean will learn what it was like to be Sam because Sam won’t parent Dean like he himself (Sam) was parented. Unless Sam is extremely oppressive as a parent (giving orders and demands and making decisions for the other etc) then Dean can’t possibly know what it was like to be Sam. And nothing about Sams personality has ever indicated that he would be comfortable in that dictator role.
I think Sam will parent Dean like he would have liked to be parented, with equality, respect and encouragement. He won’t stamp on Dean’s dreams because they’re not the same as his. He’ll encourage him to be his own person and not just expect him to conform to what Sam wants. That alone will make Dean walking in Sams childhood shoes impossible.
Ugh… double ugh. Didn’t Adam Glass write the absolutely wretched canon bashing Bad Boys? I think I’ll take a pass on this one then. I’ve had just about enough of “lets teach Sam what an awesome brother he had” and the re-writing of Dean entire personality to reflect all of Sam’s childhood character traits. Sorry dude, but Dean WASN’T the rebel, he DID’T hate John or the hunting life, or excel at school, he WASN’T searching for normal, that was Sam, and making it Dean now just throws the whole show out of whack with itself. If we find out in this episode that Dean secretly really, really, really wanted to go to college but was thwarted by his awful, mean, abusive father who continually hung Sam like a millstone around his neck I think I’ll vomit. How many think that young de-aged Dean will actually learn something about what Sam has been through these past years? Don’t hold your breath.
And I agree with alycat…. Hansel? why Hansel? What has that children’s story says de-aging? It’s kind of a perversion of the story itself and it really feels like a stretch here. Couldn’t they have found a legend about an actual monster who turns people young rather than warp in a very awkward and implausible way a story that everybody already knows? Not really looking forward to this one. Hey though, it gives Jensen some time off and with all the stories circulating about overworked he is and how Jared is just sitting around doing nothing, I suppose he needs it.
I’m going to watch. I’ve only skipped in episode in the series, but I am dreading the Sam learns how awesome Dean is and Dean learns nothing, which is what I totally expect from Adam Glass. Until the episode is over, I will hope that I’m wrong and that for once we will get insight on Sam and Dean will learn something about him, but i really, really doubt it.
Coming out of lurkdom to say excellent post, E!! I couldn’t agree more w/you. None of the stuff this regime has written about Dean in his younger years rings true to me! Nothing at all.
Hi lala… I love it when you come out of lurkdom. I totally agree. Even in the most recent episode there that stupid story about John and New York City. Boy was that a clunker and it rang totally false. There is NO WAY that Dean Winchester as we know him would have snuck off in an big city, by himself, underaged, to go and get drunk. In the first place CBGB”s would have NEVER have let him in, not ever. Maybe back in the 60’s and early 70’s, when New York was really a tough place, but this would have been the early 90’s, so no underaged drinking in a well known establishment like CBGB’s. In the second place that wasn’t Dean’s style. He may have been rebellious with his teachers and other authority figures, but not with John. John was his hero, his idolized ideal, he would not have gone against what John decreed especially in such a flagrantly obvious way. Secondly he would have never and I mean NEVER EVER screamed to John that he hated him. I can’t see it under any circumstances… it’s just not Dean’s way, not the dutiful son, the good soldier that John raised and Dean committed to. The scenario set up by TTWLB also showed that Sam was once again useless…..sitting around in the motel (there aren’t any motels in NYC, btw) sleeping away and being oblivious. They can’t even give Sam a mention these days without making him look like a clueless moron.
OH!!! and btw, CBGB’s a notorious punk house, where new punk bands came to get their start when they were still pretty unknown. I don’t see Dean “Smoke on the Water” Winchester being into punk even as a teen.
Thanks, E 🙂
I hated that stupid NY story as well. As you said, it rang completely false. Like you, I didn’t believe a word of it and saw it as just more retconning of Dean’s history to fit whatever story X writer is trying to tell at the moment. It really bothers me that we are stuck w/writers who just don’t care about the characters or the history the show set up.
Can someone explain to me where this information is coming from that Jared has negotiated time off for himself that (apparently) Jensen hasn’t? It seems like a rumor.
If Jared is just background and saying nothing in scenes … he is still in the scenes … it isn’t any easier for him and doesn’t give him time off. Also when Jared wasn’t being Sam he was being Gadreel etc. – for me my major complaint is not enough Sam, though I also would like to know which of JC / AG / RT’s family members Jared has upset 😉
AFAIK, Jared has not asked for more time off then Jensen. I follow news because I report it here, and I have never seen anything saying Jared has negotiated more time off then Jensen. He talks about going home every chance he gets. He may have asked that they arrange his schedule so that the days he doesn’t shoot are together so he can go home. Frankly the only discussion of time off that I heard was at a convention last year when JENSEN was complaining that Jared had 23 days he didn’t shoot and Jensen only had one and he wished someone could talk the writers into giving him more time off. I know both of them said they couldn’t do the 15-16 hour days they did in the early seasons. I’m sure that is partly why we have Cas and Crowley as regulars now. I’m pretty sure that it is why we are getting a second young Dean story in 2 seasons, so Jensen can get time off. I have no idea where this idea that Jared doesn’t want to work and is torpedoing his own story comes from. I think that it’s a way to explain why Sam has so much less on screen time than Dean, without blaming the writers. This coming episode, Bad Boys and The Curious Case of Dean Winchester say to me that the writers won’t write and episode without Dean, but are more than happy to write episodes with little or no Sam (The End especially comes to mind). It doesn’t make me happy, but I don’t think Jared is the reason.
Thanks Percy both what you are saying and your interpretation of it is what I was thinking was the case. Glad it isn’t just me. Jared was working last weekend over the weekend apparently, Jensen wasn’t (as far as I understood the photos I saw) so perhaps down the road there will be more of an even focus?
As much as I hate to see a boys lite episode – whether Sam it Dean, I have to admit I did like The Curious. case of Dean Winchester with Chad Everett. That scene in the graveyard where elder Dean is digging up the grave of a murderer while Bobby looks on? Priceless. And Sam at the table gambling with the He-witch? Awesome. There were so many goodmoments to be found in that episode. So yeah, II’m starting to feel better about this one – thanks guys!
Speaking of…how old is Colin now?
He’s 18. He could really only play Stanford or just pre-stanford Sam now…. he might be able to pull off 15/16, but probably not much younger. Another problem… Colin is only about 5′ 7″…. WAAAAAAAAAY shorter than Jared. He may get a bit taller in the coming few years, but he won’t be anywhere near the 6’4″ that Jared is and was at 18… Oh, and BTW Jared is really closer to
6′ 5″. :D. His sister is 6′ and his brother Jeff is 6′ 7″! That is one taaaaaalllll family.
[quote] Colin is only about 5′ 7″ [/quote]
Are you sure? He looks a lot taller than that. He has a long neck too. (Maybe he was around that height in 7.03 [i] The Girl Next Door[/i].)
Well his biography says he is 5’11”.
Various bio’s on the internet have said 5 61/2, 5 7, 5 10 etc… so who knows. None of the heights are any where near 6 4 though.
As i stated the boys are once again walking in each others shoes…..dean, especially if he is as he was at 14′ a teenage boy, will be parented not by an absent father but by his brother and as such, from sams pov as a child understand what it was like for sam being raised by a brother as much as it is for sam being parented by one….so again..super excited not only to have a jared driven eppy, but to get a chance to see a side of sam we havent yet got to see before……:D
I do not think the episodes are long enough to delve that deeply into that idea. And the episode premise does not convey this is Dean learning something but I respect your view.
I doubt this will be a “Sam” driven episode. Sam will likely be learning something about Dean . . . yet again. What more he has to learn I don’t know? He should know it all by now. Haha!
Hmmm… didn’t they do Hansel and Gretel/Grimm Fairy Tales back in Season 3’s Bedtime Stories? Just curious, though. If Dean is “de-aged”, will he retain his adult memories and, more importantly, will he still carry the Mark of Cain? A teenaged Dean running around with the Mark of Cain would make for an entertaining hour of TV 🙂 And, if he doesn’t carry the Mark of Cain when he is “de-aged”, I wonder if that’s going to be the key to curing Dean? At that time I thought they made a bigger deal about Gavin McLeod being brought forward in time by Abaddon; they did make a point of saying how that could affect the timeline. Just wondering if sending Gavin back would change the course of events in such a way where Dean doesn’t take on the Mark of Cain? It’s an easy way out but that wouldn’t be the first time the show took the easy way out (Season 7’s Born-Again Identity).
I guess the spoiler rumour was right after all. Can’t say that I am looking forward to this one. When I heard the rumour my first thought was ‘oh no, not another episode where Sam learns some more about how awesome his brother is/was’. I really hope that I am wrong but, as it is written by Adam Glass, I’m not holding my breath.
One thing that does excite me is Lesley Nicol. Is that the Mrs Patmore of Downton Abbey Lesley Nicol? I hope it is.
I dont understand where this notion that sam will see dean as being awesome comes into play here. Sam was there, he knows what dean was like as a kid….if this episode does anything for sam, it will have him understand and respect his father more…not dean.
Still i like the idea of the continued walking in each others shoes….while i dont think sam will deem his brother awesome….i think its good that experiences life from the other side…just as much as dean understanding what its been like for sam having dean in essence in charge of sam and all his decisions even when those decisions didnt belong to dean. however it goes down i am excited to see jared carry the episode and i look forward to seeing him in a parent role…something i know he will excel at as he does in real life:D
I’m expecting for Dean to be awesome based on Adam Glass’s history. If he isn’t outright awesome, I’m expecting him to be poor damaged woobie Dean and oblivious Sam who never paid enough attention to his brother’s pain when he was a kid. Here are AG’s episodes.
6.02 Two and a Half Men – Dean is awesome taking care of babies while Sam was such an unobservant brother that he didn’t realize Dean helped take care of him
6.08 All Dogs Go to Heaven – Dean is awesome at understanding the plight of poor Lucky saving the poor misunderstood puppy that Sam wanted to kill. Also Dean is a woobie because he feels just like Lucky! (I HATED Lucky, so Dean’s awesomeness escapes me, but the episode was pretty clear about the message.
6.12 Like a Virgin Dean gets to be awesome and funny getting the sword out of the stone. Sam gets to have long arms that retrieve the sword when it drops.
6.19 Mommy Dearest Dean gets to be awesome and kill the Mother of All
7.04 Defending Your Life Dean gets to be angsty about his unending guilt and manpain. Sam proves that he was not cut out to be a good lawyer (and wasted his time going to Stanford) by failing to get Dean acquitted or even running a competent defense.
7.11 Adventures in Babysitting Although Sam actually goes to save Kristy’s father, Kristy makes sure we know that Dean is awesome by thanking only him while Sam is shuffled off. Kristy is also an obvious parallel to young Dean and she is awesome.
7.18 Party On, Garth Garth is admittedly more awesome, but in the end Dean awesomely kills the monster he can’t see because Sam gets the sword knocked out out of his hand.
8.06 Southern Comfort Garth is of course the most awesome because Garth is always the most awesome. Dean gets to be a woobie venting all of his grievances against Sam, Sam does not get to defend himself or note that Dean isn’t perfect.
8.12 As Time Goes By Dean gets to be awesome AND work with Elliot Ness. Sam actually does have a decent role relating with Jody and figuring out how to get Dean back.
8.18 Freaks and Geeks This is the only episode I never watched. I was busy that night, saw Krissy was in the cast and read the recaps. Based on those recaps, Sam gets knocked out, Dean gets to be fawned over by Krissy and save the day. Feel free to correct my impressions.
9.07 Bad Boys Dean is shown to be a woobie, giving up potential happiness in order to be with Sam, which also makes him awesome. Dean also awesomely convinces Timmy to get his mother to leave. Sam is shown to be so self-centered that he was not in the least worried when told Dean was lost in a hunt. Even years later Sam shows total disinterest in the time his brother may have been being held by a Rugaru.
9.12 Sharp Teeth Garth is awesome again. Sam gets knocked out and Dean awesomely saves the day. Dean gets to show how sad he is about Sam not being totally forgiving. Sam is not allowed to say one word to explain how HE felt about being possessed against his will. Sam looks like the bad guy, Dean looks sad, but awesome.
9.17 Mother’s Little Helper Since this is part of the Dean is spiraling arc, Dean is less awesome. He is fragile and being manipulated by Crowley. Sam actually does get to be awesome working the case, befriending Julia, exorcising the demons. It is one of the few reasons I have a bit of hope for this episode, not much, but some.
So basically, IMHO, Adam Glass has no interest in Sam even being competent, let alone doing something good. I am totally expecting Woobie little Dean with Sam realizing he never knew how hard it was for Dean and being forced to apologize for not realizing how wonderful, marvelous and awesome Dean has always been, while Sam has been worthless.
10.04 Paper Moon
The sheer amount of awesomness is just …. awesome!
Freaks and Geeks is exactly the same as Adventures in Babysitting except worse …. Sharp Teeth is like both of them except familiarly worse. BB is a travesty that AG just adores. *sigh*
Even though it is not an AG episode we actually do know where Sam’s current understanding regarding Dean is due to the 200th episode (which if you look at it is not about ‘the brothers’ at all. Aaannyway …) this is Sam’s take on Dean (as understood by one of the shows writers and told to us through the prism of a bunch of female fans):
I wish that he could see the way I see him
The perfect brother, a man without sin
(Dean’s song is about how Sam’s being cursed killed “my mother” so, you know, whatever)
So if Sam is to learn anything about Dean this SHOULD be the thing he is to learn – that Dean is not in fact ‘perfect’ since apparently that is what he believes at present. Maybe Dean will learn something about Sam or about how their childhoods’ looked to Sam (I suppose that would depend on whether we get de-aged grownup Dean or 14 year old Dean) – like maybe a bit of communication, as to their individual feelings about their mother, with his ‘baby brother’? (I changed this because it may not have made a lot of sense before, it is just this situation with their mother is beginning to look like the show is making a point of it and a de-aging episode would be a good point to discuss it. Might just be my impression (or wishful thinking))
I don’t have much faith in this episode but I do like the fact that Jared is in it, since AG can occasionally write good stuff for Sam when the focus on the episode basically HAS to be Sam.
You know a storyline with Dean, young Dean and Sam would have been interesting. I think it would be an experience for all three of them – especially written by someone who has the ability to see all the points of view that would be involved…. like Sera maybe ….
You think that Sam is going to save the day, or at least Dean? I expecting a repeat of Ben in The Kids are Alright. Dean will save himself and all the other kidnapped children while Sam is either knocked out or “doing research”.
Sam? Win a fight? Lord no! You’re ‘aving a larf right? 😉 If YOUNG Dean doesn’t end up hauling grownup Sam out of the witches oven after Sam has been unconscious for about 1/2 the episode I would count that a win for Sam.
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
This is just so bang on accurate and totally awesome! You really did your homework. There are no writers left who have any interest in Sam as a character and Adam Glass has admitted that he felt the need to write a “Love Letter’s to Dean.” What for I have no idea it’s not like he’s a big mystery… that would be Sam.
Sharon,
I think you could be right. If this eppy had been written by sera or edlund or even jc, they would be able to give us five minutes on that. But it doesnt mean that this cannot be revisited in a future ep. Even if not discussed during this ep, it is an experience that enabled them to get a better understanding of the others pov;)
Look im easy….im just excited to see what jared does…..i want to see daddy sam, we havent got to see him yet and i have no doubt jared will be
Amazing
Hmm… That could be interesting because usually Dean is the one who has an affinity for kids. But the situation in [i] About a Boy [/i] will be very different because Sam’s brother is turned into a teenager. If Dean was younger only physically, it would require quite a mental switch for him not to take the lead and for Sam not to treat his brother at least as an equal. A 14-year-old Dean shouldn’t be so incompetent that he can’t take care of himself. But Dean could have a hard time accepting his new limitations.
[quote]About a Boy [/quote]Exactly.Its about a boy and the boy in that episode is either hansel (very less chance) or it will be Dean.It sure as hell does not like its about sam.
I can’t even begin to guess what is going to happen in this episode. Dog Dean sounded like a bad idea and that was kind of cute, I had all kinds of misgivings about Fan Fiction and that is my favorite episode this season so far. So who knows this could be good just a little odd if it turns out to be humorous since dire things are happening right now. No one has to learn any life altering lessons for Dean to turn into a teenager and have Sam try to figure out how to save him (again). Hopefully it will be entertaining and different. AG does write a good script now and again.
I guess other characters might think that Sam could be dating some cougar so he is playing the role of a step-daddy even though Sam isn’t that much older than the kid.
If role-reversal will be the theme of the episode, hopefully learning goes both ways.
If the mark was gone then Dean would be put in a difficult position because he wouldn’t want to be a kid again but he is dangerous with the mark. However, I don’t think that Hansel would be strong enough to remove something that originated from Lucifer himself.
A good thing about the premise of the episode is that they didn’t recast teenage Sam.
I wonder whether they’ll attempt to do comedy by having high school girls take an interest in de-aged Dean.
ETA
Is Hansel turning people into their younger selves because he’d feel guiltier if he kidnapped children?
Well Sam was 22 when the show started which means he’s either 32 now, if we ignore the 2 year time skips (Cage and Purgatory) or he’s 34 if we count them. If Dean is going to be 14, then Sam could be his father. Having a kid at 18 isn’t that unusual and if we count the extra 2 years having a child at 20 isn’t bad at all.
My guess is that Hansel is turning people into children because the witch eats children, not adults.
I think Dylan Everett could have portrayed a 14-year-old Dean in the flashbacks ([i]Bad Boys[/i]). However, he is going to share scenes with Jared now. I’m not sure it’s going to make much sense when Sam gets mistaken for Dean’s father. I guess it’s funnier that Sam won’t be just Dean’s older brother but his daddy, too.
[quote] My guess is that Hansel is turning people into children because the witch eats children, not adults. [/quote]
Yes, but why go through the trouble of reverting people to their younger selves instead of just taking those who are already children?
Why couldn’t young Dean be Sam’s brother? Or half brother? Personally I am nearly 17 years older than my sister…. and Jared could be a reasonably wide range of ages. Anyway lots of people have this weird idea that, of two people, if one is taller they are therefore older.
Maybe I was being unclear but my point is that it’d make more sense if people assumed that Sam is Dean’s older brother instead of thinking that Sam is Dean’s father (maybe even if Sam had indeed fathered young Dean).
Heh me and my Mum used laugh about that particular possibility being assumed by the neighbours. Especially as we moved to a new town when my sister was 2…. (overshare by eilf)
I’m kinda of the mind that people are expecting this episode to be way deeper than what it may be. I will be surprised if there will be any kind of great learning curve for either Sam or Dean. If they balance the darkness with humour I can see Sam being exasperated by a teenage Dean but all this talk of parenting… not so much. If they are going with parallels- because Chuck knows we can’t have an episode that doesn’t – then the idea of the extreme action Hansel takes for Gretal could reflect the extremes Sam went to and may still have to go to save Dean? That one seems kind of obvious. I don’t know what to expect – I have to admit I’m pretty curious too!!! I guess we should also keep in mind that sometimes these episode synopsis’s aren’t always well written.
then the idea of the extreme action Hansel takes for Gretal could reflect the extremes Sam went to and may still have to go to save Dean?
Oh NO! PLEASE NO! I mean, yes they are actually going with Dean is doing something bad, so of course, Sam must do something worse, because the world can’t survive Sam not being more evil than Dean. So you are probably right, this is where we find out Sam murdered innocent people to save Dean and Dean can berate him for going to far and being the REAL monsters. Of course, when Sam refused to cross any lines and kept to the agreement not to go looking when Dean was dead, Dean then berated him for not being a good enough brother, so Sam can’t win no matter what. Why don’t the writers just put a sign on Sam saying EVIL! and be done with it?
Oh well, it’s good to know that Dean tricking Sam into being possessed was done out of love and goodness and Sam saving Dean is because he is a horrible human being.
There isn’t any mention of Gretal in the synopsis. Is there a trailer or something?
I think you’re right. I think we all might be overthinking this a bit. I think they might be trying for a humorous episode rather than something deep, and since what’s going on right now is pretty intense, they have to find a way to make some humor, hence, change Dean into a teenager. Sort of like they did in season 4. Too much angst was going on for there to be any humor so they had the boys became Smith and Wesson so they could be other people and the show could be funny. Lord knows Sam and Dean Winchester weren’t having much fun at that point.
Hiya Aly,
I am damn curious too as the synopsis doesn’t really tell us much now does it. It can go in two ways. Dean is turned to the younger self but he is still the old one in mind or he is turned to his 14 year old self. I see both cases humorous and a fun episode. Like I said. I would be dumbstruck to see my brother when he was young and I would be a grownup… I mean I would go in total protect mode or kill him for being annoying… Anyway, I am really exited to see how this plays out. Hansel too as he should be creepy. The last episode with Grim fairy tales were not really for children so I hope he is not either.
I think the actor that played young Dean did it well so him acting with Jared/Sam. I just get giddy only when thinking about it. I guess with all scenarios. Of course it might be also serious episode so we will see. 🙂
– Lilah
PercysO – ok then we will go with this scenario instead: Dean doesnt trick Sam into being possessed by an angel out of love and not wanting to lose his brother. Sam dies. The End. Better? I don’t get the obsession people have over what Dean did. If the situation were reversed I’d want Sam to do the same exact thing. At the end of the trials, Sam stopped he didn’t want to die. Cut to angels falling, Sam in hospital comatose and then all of a sudden he wants to die? Putting the Vulcan Mind Meld aside for a moment – how was Dean supposed to know? Osmosis? If he hadn’t seen into Sams unconciousness thru Gadreel, he never would have. The last thing he heard out of Sam was the desire to live. Dean didn’t have a whole lot of options and the clo k was ticking. He had to make a judgement call and do it fast. He also made attempts to let Sam know after the fact but was deflected by Gadreel every time. I liked where he spilled what happened to Sam only to find out it was the angel possessing him that heard the confession. As far as whats going on now – am I glad Sam cured Dean? Hells yes! ( Even if I have to admit my sick fondness for Demon Dean. Is that wrong? Does that mean I’m bad? 😉 I’m sorry. No, I’m not.) Personally I don’t care what they have to do to save each other because in the end they are still together. And as a side note for everyone upset over Randys death – if I didn’t think the guy was scum enough for sending Claire to rob a gas and sip – he sold an underage girl to a rapist to satisfy his debt. Ugh. I’d ha e killed him myself.
I can agree that the initial decision to fool Sam into accepting Gadreel was somewhat necessary. Dean could have had Gadreel explain what was going on to Sam and let him decide, but I do understand that Dean was under the gun and made the decision because he felt he had to. Dean’s behavior afterward is what I object to. He lies to Sam about what happens. He agrees to Gadreel wiping Sam’s memory to keep him from finding out what he had done. He knows that Sam believes that his losing time, and parts of his life that were confusing him was because there was something “wrong” with him, that he would never be normal or well. He put Sam in a position where Sam was doubting his own sanity, not a big leap, considering he spent most of season seven hallucinating. His attempts to let Sam know is actually ONE attempt to let Sam know. Gadreel didn’t deflect him. He told him that if Sam knew Sam would then decide whether or not he wanted to be kept alive by having Gadreel possess him. Dean decided that Sam could not be allowed the right to say what was done with his own body, because Dean might not like what Sam decided. That was more than wrong IMHO.
As to Dean killing people who deserve it. That should not be left to the discretion of a man who willingly took on a Mark that makes him need to kill. Frankly, that should not be left to the decision of any individual. That is why we have courts, and lawyers and trials to give a fair hearing and decide how culpable someone is and what punishment is appropriate. According to the previews Dean himself feels he stepped over the line. In any case, it doesn’t matter if they “deserved it” or not. Dean himself does not want to be a killing machine. He does not want to be a vigilante against human beings. I think that Dean establishing his own moral boundaries is his right. If he believes killing people is wrong, more power to him.
[quote]Sam dies. The End. Better?[/quote]Sam dies.He is resurrected.Not the end.This is better.[quote] I’d ha e killed him myself.[/quote]I would have to meet you in jail.:(
San – Good point. It’s not like theres a shortage of rug rats to teenagers to choose from. Plus wouldn’t it be easier to catch a kid instead of an adult? What is it about this show and teenagers? Even if it is Dean!!! 🙂
Alycat actually the last thing that Dean heard out of Sam was that he didn’t want to be brought back after he died because he didn’t want anyone else to get hurt because of him. When Gadreel/Dean came into Sam’s head and promised him an alternative solution Sam was shocked to see a stranger about to inhabit his body. In the end someone did get hurt. Kevin was killed by Sam’s hand as a direct result of the secret possession. Something that Sam explicitly stated he didn’t want to have happen. Which is why when Dean told Sam that Kevin’s life was worth the sacrifice Sam told Dean that it wasn’t and he would never do something like that to Dean. If Dean had told Sam what had happened and why Sam may or may not have gone along with the plan. In any case it would have been Sam’s decision not Dean’s.
And yes the brothers have come across many scumbags in the past but it isn’t up to them to judge and execute humans. Their job is to protect people from the supernatural because they and other hunters are the only ones who can do it. They are not vigilantes. If Dean had left the house I am sure Randy would have been dealt with. Or like they usually do one call to the police to tip them off.
Ah tomato, tomatoe… if you think about it I’m sure all the monsters the Winchesters have ganked over all these years didn’t feel like they deserved it either. Also according to the promo per his convo with Sam he said he couldn’t stop himself. Of course he feels guilty and that he stepped over the line! Hairshirt meet Dean Winchester….
Dean made three attempts to tell Sam. The first was when he and Sam/Gad were leaving the hospital. He wanted to tell Sam right away but Gad said he’d die due to the state Sams body was in. The second time was in the motel when Sam was thinking that there must be something wrong with him and that maybe they should just accept it at which Zeke/Gad interfered and stopped him and the third time was when Dean using Kevins sigil trapped the angel and spilled what happened to Sam not realizing Gad was right there hearing every word. Gad then knocked Dean on the floor and went and killed Kevin. So he did try several times. The last time was the most honest and heartfelt and I wish Sam had heard it. (Makes me think of thar scene where Sam is talking to Deans comatose body while Deans off dealing with the Reaper Tessa) So theres that.
[quote] He wanted to tell Sam right away but Gad said he’d die due to the state Sams body was in.[/quote]It would be Okay.For me consent is sacrosanct.It still does not explain why Dean did not tell Kevin.[quote]Makes me think of thar scene where Sam is talking to Deans comatose body while Deans off dealing with the Reaper Tessa[/quote]I do not find any connection.
Cheryl – when did Sam say that? Was it outside of Sams head?
[quote]Was it outside of Sams head?[/quote]Does it matter?
Dean tried to leave the house, he was ambushed by rapist dude. Yeah and Sam is learning this season just exactly what he is willing to do and how far he will go to get Dean back. push shoved if Sam were in Deans place and he were given that same angelic solution – I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t do the exact same thing.
[quote]I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t do the exact same thing.[/quote]Purgatory storyline.
[quote] push shoved if Sam were in Deans place and he were given that same angelic solution – I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t do the exact same thing. [/quote]
You don’t have to listen to the actors but Jared was responsible for changing Sam’s lines in the finale of season nine ([i]“I lied”[/i]) so his words carry weight. Jared says that Sam wasn’t lying when Sam said that he would never trick Dean into getting possessed.
http://www.zap2it.com/videos/supernatural-season-10-jared-padalecki-sam-kill-dean-video-comic-con-162880
Once again – no possession = dead Sam = no Show. No seriously. Dean had one shot to decide. He chose to keep Sam alive and deal with whatever mess occured afterwards. What would you do? Cas told him that be was a good angel, he had to act quickly with the fa ts that he had at hand. It’s possession not the Tet Offensive. Sorry I’m kidding, I just had to use that reference… 🙂 I loved that line! Like Crowley said ‘Hell, we’ve all been possessed!’ There was no way Dean could’ve known all that would happen. Do I blame Kevins death on Dean? Nope. Sam? Negative. The one responsible is Gadreel and the one that initiated the hit, Metatron. The convo where Sam said he didnt want anyone else to get hurt…. was in Sams head. Dean (or Gad) pleaded his case – ‘there ain’t no me if there ain’t no you!’ and Sam said yes. If he wanted to go that badly Dean never would’ve been able to talk him out of it. Sam Winchester meet Free Will.
[quote]no possession = dead Sam = no Show.[/quote]no possession= alive sam (just not because of dean)= Show continues.[quote]deal with whatever mess occured afterwards.[/quote]He did not deal with it.He ran away to get the mark and the disbelief that Sam would not do the same thing ,that is not dealing.[quote] Do I blame Kevins death on Dean?[/quote]i do.Not because he got Sam possessed but because he did not tell kevin about the possession.[quote]Sam Winchester meet Free Will.[/quote]Sam winchester meet deception.sam’s trust in his brother was misplaced that is what I learnt.
It’s easy to second guess or monday morning quarterback if you will. You all are acting like it’s a perfect world in real life let alone in Sam and Deans Universe. Things happen, they walk a very fine yet very violent line between good and evil. I’m sure they would rather innocents not be hurt but it’s still bound to happen now and then. Half the time they are about to die and you want them to worry about dropping a dime on a scuz like Randy? Had Dean not MOC’nd out they would have just piled in the Impala together and taken off without a thought about Randy and his rapist crew. Would you guys really be saying the same thing if it had been Sam in Deans place?
Absolutely… as I said when Sam killed the nurse (even though she was a child killing demon) and when he killed the waitress when he had no soul. It was wrong, we all said it was wrong, demon blood and/or soullessness notwithstanding. The killing of humans has been off limits since the show started. There must be some real world boundaries even in a fantasy/sci-fi show and the killing of only monsters has been this shows boundary since day one. That boundary did not shift when Sam killed those people (hence his working for redemption and having to suffer Dean’s continual criticism of what he’d done “while soulless” as well as his attempts to atone for pretty much all of season 5) so it should not shift for Dean either. It was wrong when Sam did it even with the mitigating circumstances of the demon blood and soullessness, neither of which where his fault; so it’s wrong when Dean does it too, even with the MoC affecting his behavior. Remember, the MoC wouldn’t have been affecting his behavior in the first place had he not been dumb enough to take it on in the first place, in which case Sam would have run back in and saved Dean and all those guys, scummy though they were, would still be alive. Wrong is wrong, period.
Hi E technically the nurse was a supernatural creature. Sam killed her when the demon was allowing her to be the front personality. It actually wasn’t any worse than any time they kill a demon whose human COULD be saved (in other words it is always wrong or it never is). I imagine the nurse didn’t like being the equivalent of Sam feeling Kevin’s blood on his hands and she may have welcomed the chance to be free of that. You never know though – maybe she was dying and she had a relative who made a deal to save her life by having her possessed….
Sam killing a waitress while soulless would count I agree. Which waitress did he kill? I am blanking on that. Also the policeman on the way out of town, he didn’t kill him but it wasn’t from lack of violence.
The waitress in The Man Who Knew Too Much. The one that was going through his dream as he put the parts of himself together. He remembered Soulless!Sam shooting her to get to a creature that was using her as a shield.
Oh right! I just couldn’t remember. Yes that is a clear example of a human being killed by someone who was pretty much Sam. :p I am sorry, they do tend to give the guys mitigating circumstances on killing ‘people’, I have to take account of them …. But they did used to have a much clearer line between what they would and wouldn’t kill.
LilahK – Hiya back atcha! I too am really interested in seeing Jared acting with the kid who is playing young Dean. I thought he did a pretty good job the first time around, I think he and Jared are going to rock it! You know who else I thought did a good acting job out of the youngsters on the show??? The boy who played Cole in the Reaper episode (‘Dude! I am not going to play “Fight Club” with a 14 year old!!!) and the little guy who played Jesse as the Anti-Christ. What about you? Any favorites stick out?
Well, they have good record with young actors. I have actually liked Sam’s, the different ones of Dean’s too and also those you mentioned. In the pilot the two ghost children, Lilith, the three ghost children in slash fiction, The murderous sister child in the haunted manor, Benders, the sister and brother cannibals, the children changelings. The list goes on and on… Children = creepy as baddies and they all have worked. Even from season 10 young Cole even if he didn’t have much lines or only a short scene was good or “bad” in which way you take it. 😀
– Lilah
Alycat I am not arguing the possession. Dean was backed into an impossible corner. He was given false information on the angel from Cas. I get all of that. The problem was not informing Sam afterwards and telling Sam that the sacrifice of Kevin was worth the price as long as Sam was alive. And yes as Sam said when he remembered everything that had happened to him he was ready to die. He didn’t want to be saved like that if it meant hurting others. Look we can’t help how the story is written. It is what it is. Dean did something rash in saving Sam the way he did and taking on the MOC the way he did. The story was set up for Dean to have an epic fall. And now he has crossed a line that can’t be uncrossed. It is now up to Sam and Cas to save Dean before he kills someone who doesn’t deserve it.
What does Dean having the MOC have to do with Sam running back in and saving Dean and all those guys? Sam didn’t realize Dean wasn’t with him until he heard the Deans growl and the rucus inside. If Dean didn’t have the MOC by the time Sam realized he wasn’t by his side, Dean could have been killed. Dean was unarmed, remember? As far as soulessness goes – Dean was more upset that no one told him that Sam was alive. Dean gripes, thats part of his personality – I don’t think Sam is this sensitive flower that lets Deans moods or harsh words affect him. Besides Sam can give as good as he takes.
If Dean didn’t have the MOC he would have left the room the way Sam thought.
[quote] Dean gripes, thats part of his personality – I don’t think Sam is this sensitive flower that lets Deans moods or harsh words affect him. [/quote]
How about pretty much the entire season eight, especially [i] Southern Comfort[/i], [i] Citizen Fang [/i] and [i] Sacrifice[/i].
No he is not a sensitive flower but he is sensitive esp to Dean,s opinion of him and clearly that was shown in Sacrifice. And I would think when someone keeps bringing up your wrongs that you have tried to make amends for whether it is under a Spectre or no influence it would start waring you down.On another note Dean’s blaming of Sam for being Soulless was just bizarre to say the least from the writers.
Percys – What? He was leaving the room – the guys approached as he was backing out. He told them to back off, not to be as stupid as they look and he got a bottle over the head when Mr. Sneaky Rapist Guy ambushed him from behind. The scenario would have played out the same with or without the MOC.
Off Topic: Speaking of de-aged stuff have any of you seen Ask Sam Stuff ([url]”http://asksamstuff.tumblr.com/”[/url]) it fills in a lot of holes for Sam that the show ignores and is generally sweet and quite emotionally believable at the same time. S(he) is currently doing a short storyline about de-aged Sam which I think might be coming close to an end, so you might need to scroll down and read backwards.
Sam has been de-aged to his 5 year old self and hasn’t any memories of being older.
Guys c’mon – Even Sam was appalled at the fact that he was going to drink the Nurse Betsy? dry (not the Hell bitch taking a nap inside) while SHE (the Nurse) watched. That’s a whole lotta hand wavin your doing on this, don’t you think? This ones on Sam. And yes, Deans done his share – I’m not looking for a tit for tat situation here. This one sticks in peoples memories because it was cold, shocking and unlike Sammy.
As I said the nurse is exactly the same as all other possessed people. Not better or worse. The same. I am not handwaving anything. If we are agreed that killing the nurse – who was possessed by a demon – was bad then it is ALWAYS bad to kill a person possessed by a demon. It isn’t complicated.
Also I think you will find that I am the only person saying so at the moment – E is not ‘handwaving it’ at all. She is saying in fact that the same rules apply to both brothers, and agrees with your position on the nurse.
[quote] If we are agreed that killing the nurse – who was possessed by a demon – was bad then it is ALWAYS bad to kill a person possessed by a demon. It isn’t complicated.[/quote]Thank you for saying this.This has been my problem..while Sam’s killing of the nurse is referred in every comment Dean’s was referred in a grand total of one.Every Demon possessed person is the same.I too agree about that the killing of nurse was bad a new low ..but if Dean’s killing of possessed person does not warrant the same repetitive telling as sam’s I will tell Dean’s and not tell sam’s.There should be some balance right.
Alycat I think you are confused. No one here, not me, not eilf, not anonymous or Sharon or Cheryl or any one else is handwaving what Sam did almost SIX years ago now. It was wrong then, it is wrong now. He never got a pass, not from the fans who hate him, not even from the fans who love him, not from the show, or Chuck, Bobby, Pamela, Cas and especially not from Dean. His wrongs were continually brought up and he fought and apologized and atoned. What we are all objecting to at this point is the attempt by so many fans to let DEAN off the hook now. “He was wearing the mark” “He wasn’t in control”, “It was self defense” “they deserved it” is the only handwaving going on here. Why was Sam wrong at the time he killed the nurse (even though she WAS in fact a demon, something both boys kill all the time with hardly a blink) but Dean get’s excuse after excuse after excuse? He killed humans… it’s not good, it’s against hunter policy and even Dean is applied. It’s OK to like a character but still think what they’ve done is wrong. Dean needs to atone now as Sam did. That’s all we are saying.
Man you guys are posting fast! Any Dean adjacent out there? For the record – I never held what Sam did while soulless against him, same as I don’t hold what DDean or MOC fueled Dean does against him.
But Sam was ‘high’ on demon blood? So why is it different in just that one case?
Like I said San – Sams not a wilting wallflower. Not to excuse Dean but I thought that one scene in Southern Comfort was poorly written. I think that these were resentments held deep inside and maybe he wasn’t even conciously aware he still felt that way – but blaming Sam for being Soulless? That was just stupid. I also thought 1st half Season 8 was a mess. I understood Sam and Amelia and that whole mess but that storyline was weak and I felt for Jared having to make it look as good as he did.
I have always said when it comes to Sam – if he is so miserable and unhappy with Dean and/orhunting in general then why doesn’t he just leave? Deans not forcing him to stay – he can take off anytime he wants. Dean can gripe and moan and tease and insult but Sams a grown man. I’m sorry if these posts are getting jumbled up I’m trying to respond and I’m still on my dinky cell phone screen so a lot of my replys tend to go down the stream of conciousness rabbit hole. 😉
I don’t think that being affected by Dean’s words means Sam is a wilting flower.
[quote] Not to excuse Dean but I thought that one scene in Southern Comfort was poorly written. I think that these were resentments held deep inside and maybe he wasn’t even conciously aware he still felt that way – but blaming Sam for being Soulless? That was just stupid. [/quote]
Dean pretty much said the same thing again later when he was fully in control of himself.
[b] 8.06 Southern Comfort [/b]
[i] Dean: — — Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you’re doing all kinds of crazy. Those aren’t mistakes, Sam. Those are choices! [/i]
[b] 8.23 Sacrifice [/b]
[i] Dean: All right. Well, I’m just spit-balling here, but if I were you, uh… Ruby, killing Lilith, letting Lucifer out, [b] losing your soul[/b], not looking for me when I went to Purgatory — — [/i]
[quote]Sams not a wilting wallflower.[/quote]Also Sam is not a robot.To expect sam not to be hurt by what Dean said because he is adult?…wow the Dean fans moaned and groaned about Sam’s words hurting dean..poor wilting flower Dean.(heck Dean was hurt by Sam’s heaven)
Personally i do not have any problem with dean or sam getting hurt by each others words..They are brothers..they will get hurt ..that is expected.Sam left … if Sam left where would be the show?Dean killed Sam’s friend and Sam left.Dean was so supportive right.No he was hurt the wilting wall flower Dean.
Speaking of a great read not to mention incredible artwork – Journal of a Man of Letters!!! Last I looked it was on indefinite hiatus but there is the older entries. Ha! Why am I telling you guys??? I’m sure you know all about it!!!!! She really is phenomenal tho – worth a jump to her LJ/Blog? to see her other artwork. It’s Petite Madame, right???
Eilf – In my mind anyway *sweat* *sweat* carefully eyes the lions just waiting in the arena, hungry for DeanGirl flesh….
The blood consumption was something Sam chose to do. It wasn’t forced on him (and I’m not talking about the baby/drippingblood/mouth/nursery because while it made Sam one of the special kids it didn’t have anything to do with him drinking it later on, his psykid ability was psychic visions… not sending demons to Hell. Show never made that connection.) Per Ruby he didn’t need the feather to fly. Sam didn’t know that of course and he thought he was doing a good thing but all along from beginning to end it was his choice. He ignored all warnings given. To me anyway that is different than coming back without your Soul which was completely out of Sams hands, Stream of conciousness left the station and then derailed half way thru post so if doesnt make sense I apologize
It’s ok Alycat I am done. These discussions are done to death and no minds are ever changed on any side (and there are more than just 2 BTW).
The MOC was actually what I was talking about in comparison to Sam’s blood was Dean’s choice to take, he barged in and practically demand it from Cain and didn’t ask what the consequences were – while being led on by a demon.
This is the comparison I was making.
I was comparing DDean to Soulless Sam..
If you want to say that Demon Dean and Soulless Sam are equally not responsible for their actions then ok, I guess. But blood Sam is not identifiably worse or more responsible for his actions than MOC Dean.
*Edited*
To repeat myself, since this keeps coming up. Sam was “warned” by the angels, who were TRYING to start the Apocalypse, Chuck who when he told him he was doing this to stop Lilith and was it really on him to stop her said “sure looks like it”, and Pamela who was a good person, but who didn’t pay attention to Castiel’s warning, so her psychic powers were not about prognostication. Frankly, we don’t know exactly when Sam became fully addicted to the demon blood. I have seen it postulated that he wasn’t when Dean came back, but it is never made clear. In any case, both Pamela’s warnings and Chuck’s were after Sam was fully hooked. So suddenly telling him to stop was not exactly useful. The angels knew before he he was addicted, partly because I’m sure they knew exact minute he started drinking demon blood, but their “warnings” were never given to Sam and were only given to Dean in order to drive Sam and Dean further apart.
Also, again, until the nurse who did Sam hurt with his addiction? He WAS in fact saving hosts. Dean told him to stop doing that and keep using the knife, which meant killing the hosts. At the time Dean knew that the knife came from Ruby and the Colt, which they tried to use later was repaired by Ruby and somehow, those being demon gifts was never an issue. Later Dean had zero issues allying with Crowley, who had done far less to “prove” he was on their side.
Addiction is not generally a good thing, unless it’s cigarettes and people are making tons of money off them. But many years ago Coke had actual cocaine in it and people used cocaine for many things because it was not recognized as a “bad” drug. No one blamed them for becoming addicted because it wasn’t thought to be what cocaine did. Sam had even less information about demon blood when he started using it. As far as we know, no one had ever used it. Bobby was clear there was ZERO information about detoxing from the demon blood. So when Sam started using it, all he knew was that he was able to save people. Ruby kept him supplied so he may never have even realized that he would suffer withdrawal when she stopped. Was Sam supposed to kill people to stop demons, when he could save them instead. Since fans are so hot about him killing the nurse, shouldn’t Sam be viewed as a hero for using the DB to keep people alive? Dean not liking what Sam did is not a good reason for Sam to not do something.
Dean took on a Mark that was solely about killing a brother. He did it at the urging of Crowley, who is every bit as much a demon as Ruby was. Cain tried to warn him that there was a price to pay and Dean refused to hear it. But now the claim is “Dean didn’t chose to do it. He had no choice”. He had a choice. He didn’t have to leave in a snit because Sam didn’t react the way Dean wanted him to when Sam found out about Gadreel. He didn’t have to turn to Crowley. He didn’t have to decide to choose Crowley over Abaddon. He didn’t have to not listen to Cain’s warnings. He could have decided that the war for the throne of Hell was none of his business. He could have not taken the Mark. He could have told Sam that he wasn’t in control of himself, both before he died and again before he massacred those people. Dean chose the Mark, knowing it was dangerous, and did nothing to mitigate its effects.
Yes, Sam was warned by the Angels who wanted to START the apocalypse not to drink the demon blood and ironically if he had listened to them he would have thwarted their plan to START the apocalypse. Both Chuck and Pamela warned him it was not the good thing Sam thought it was. I believe the very first time Sam and Uriel were alone in the motel room (Halloween episode) Uriel warned Sam about staying away from Ruby. So Sam didn’t just have Dean’s knowledge about the Angels warning. Sam using the demon powers did seem like a good thing until it went bad.
Dean was not angry with Sam for starting the apocalypse, he was angry because Sam trusted Ruby more then he trusted Dean. Dean was even willing to go with Sam to kill Lilith, Dean just didn’t trust Ruby. That is what he said to Sam outside the hospital. “You trusted a demon more then your own brother”
Dean took on the MOC solely on his own. Crowley may have led him to Cain and the blade, but he didn’t push him after that. Dean was looking for some payback and to even up the odds and made a hasty decision without thinking through the consequences. Not for the first time. I don’t believe what was going on with Sam entered into it at all except that he wanted something to go his way after everything else went sideways.
Both brothers got into trouble thinking they could control something they couldn’t. As did Cas. Put the blame on ego, conceit and in Sam’s case addiction as well.
Drinking blood was a bad thing, even Sam knew that. However,Sam was doing this bad thing to save lives and he kept on doing it to try and stop the Apocalypse. Like he said, he was just trying to take this curse and do something good with it. It was one life (Sams) vs dozens and eventually billions of lives. His own life and doing this ‘bad thing’ was a price Sam was willing to pay. One thing that no one is talking about is how Dean did the exact same thing as Sam. He dealt with a demon, he choose a demon, he trusted a demon, long before Sam did. Dean knew making a crossroads deal was a bad thing to do but he did it anyway because it ‘saved’ (though I use that word loosely because Deans deal is what doomed Sam) a life. It’s funny how some people are so critical of Sam drinking blood and choosing to go with Ruby to try and stop the Apocalyse but they say nothing of the deals that Dean has made with demons. The crossroads demon played Dean as much as Ruby played Sam. Maybe for Dean, choosing to trust and make a deal with a demon did seem like a good thing, until it went bad.
Sam listening to the Angels and not drinking blood woukd not have thwarted the Apocalyose. Lilith would still have died, Sam would still be Lucifers vessel etc. The only thing that might have thwarted the Apocalypse (at least with regards to Sam and Dean) was DEAN not making his crossroads deal.
I think Dean’s constant beratement of Sam about Ruby really epitomises the core problem with Dean. He doesn’t ever see Sams actions for what they are and he only ever focuses on how they affect him. Sam asked Dean to go with them and Dean refused because he didn’t trust Ruby. He did trust the Angels who were telling Dean the same thing that Ruby was telling Sam, that he was to be the one to stop it. But the Angels didnt help Dean or give him any information while Ruby was helping Sam, giving him info etc. Logically, the best choice was Ruby. Did Dean really expect Sam to put his feelings before the lives of billions of people?
I think what’s bothering a lot of people about the MOC is that Dean, since season 4, has absolutely condemned those who use the supernatural for the ‘greater good’. He held it against Castiel for months and he held it against Sam for years (and probably still does). Then Dean goes and does the exact same thing that he’s criticised others for except it’s not to stop the Apocalypse or save his race, it’s to stop just one demon. Its lunacy and hypocrisy rolled into one.
With your logic of Dean starting the apocalypse by making the crossroad’s deal to bring Sam back then we would need to go all the way back to Mary who made the original deal to save John. Mary’s deal is the reason Sam had demon blood in the first place. My point is that the whole premise of the show is (or used to be) the domino effect of all their individual decisions. Each and every one has made bad decisions for seemingly good reasons.
I realize that a lot of commenters see Dean as a bad brother to Sam but apparently Sam does not. Sam is a 32 year old man with above average intelligence who could leave Dean anytime he chooses and make a different life for himself if he wanted. Even after the Gadreel fiasco he chose to stay with Dean and Dean chose to stay with him in their working relationship. That is their deep connection and love. Dean is NOT a bad person. Sam is NOT a bad person and Sam is not such a woobie (to use Percy’s favorite put down for Dean) that he is staying with Dean because Dean is making him do it. Both Sam and Dean could go on without the other but they CHOOSE not to because as bad as things get and are, it is better for them when they have their brother with them.
Both Sam and Dean have said over and over that making deals with demons is a bad thing but they both keep doing it. They are both hypocrits in that sense. Sam just made a deal to give Crowley the first blade in order to get Dean back. Sometimes, in their life ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Solve the immediate problem and hope you can handle the fallout later.
I, too, long for the early days when Sam actually spoke and had a more active role but that doesn’t make me dislike Dean because of it. I just dislike where JC is taking the show and how he is portraying the brothers. Sam has been damaged by the current writing but so has Dean. I have actually questioned why I keep watching and caring. But first impressions and feelings that people have about someone (or a show) are hard to let go of because you keep clinging to that feeling you had originally.
[quote]if he had listened to them he would have thwarted their plan to START the apocalypse.[/quote]Again wrong .66 out of 666 had to be broken.Plenty seals to go around.[quote]Both Chuck and Pamela warned him it was not the good thing Sam thought it was. I believe the very first time Sam and Uriel were alone in the motel room (Halloween episode) Uriel warned Sam about staying away from Ruby.[/quote]Uriel was not someone Sam trusted.Sam did not trust gabriel when he was Loki.We humans listen to people who we trust.[quote]Dean was not angry with Sam for starting the apocalypse[/quote]How self centered of Dean.[quote]That is what he said to Sam outside the hospital. “You trusted a demon more then your own brother”
[/quote]Dean did not know a way of thwarting apocalyse.sam could not afford to sit around twiddling his thumbs.
[quote]not sending demons to Hell. Show never made that connection.) [/quote]Actually it did (controlling demons).I will let you remember.[quote]Per Ruby he didn’t need the feather to fly.[/quote]Ruby was a Demon.And Demons lie.Its high time we learn that.[quote]beginning to end it was his choice.[/quote]No.
Actually, yes the demon blood DID in fact draw Sam into consuming it, just like the MoC has drawn Dean into killing. They are in fact the exact same thing. Sam’s demon blood made him more susceptible to wanting it to begin with. The blood given to him as an infant created his ability to see into the future and his ability to pull demons out of human hosts….it made him more susceptible to ingesting it to enhance those powers that had been laying dormant in him for years. The only real difference in the scenarios now is that Dean choose to take on the mark willingly and Sam was force fed demon blood as a baby against his will.
San – The fact that Dean keeps bringing it up must mean he holds that resentment deep inside. Ruby I understand, Lillith partialy because it was Ruby that fueled that gravy train of revenge. She started him on that revenge path. In that one ep with Paris Hilton, the final scene has Dean saying ‘how could we know killing Lillith would be a bad thing?’ He acknowledged his part in being the First Seal (Arch! Arch! Or whatever noise they make), but I’m sure there was still some residual resentment or hard feelings – it happens if your human, right? Uh, letting Lucifer out – well he was instrumental in that but he didn’t know. Still in Deans mind I can see him holding onto that grudge. “If he’d just listened to me” kind of thing. And while he did lose his soul thru no fault of his own he could have shown up on Deans doorstep a little earlier to let him know he was alive. I dont buy the – you were happy blah, blah, blah – hes soulless at that point – he wouldn’t care one way or another. But still that was a choice. I’m cool with that, Dean apparently was not. At least entirely. Not looking for him in Purgatory? I understand it, I think Dean did too but even so that one had to hurt. So in closing… ahem…. I thought some of it made sense while some of it to me was kinda crappy writing. Dean was under the influence of a supernatural thing that amped up what was there. The way Dean buries things and feelings, maybe it was able to tap into that repressed well and the fact that it was repressed gave it more power? I dunno. Did this even make sense?
[quote] the final scene has Dean saying ‘how could we know killing Lillith would be a bad thing?’ He acknowledged his part in being the First Seal[/quote]But it was Sam who got blamed repeatedly.Tracie where are you when I need you?[quote] “If he’d just listened to me” kind of thing.[/quote]There would be apocalypse and Dean would still not be blamed.[quote]And while he did lose his soul thru no fault of his own he could have shown up on Deans doorstep a little earlier to let him know he was alive.[/quote]He did not care.The part which made him care was not there.[quote] I dont buy the – you were happy blah, blah, blah [/quote]Alycat22 meet lies.[quote] Did this even make sense?[/quote]It made sense .it’s just that i do not agree with it.
[quote] hes soulless at that point – he wouldn’t care one way or another. But still that was a choice. [/quote]
It seems very odd to me to hold Sam fully accountable for soulless Sam’s choices since it was established that soulless Sam lacked the ability to feel empathy.
[quote] Dean was under the influence of a supernatural thing that amped up what was there. [/quote]
The point is that Dean brings up pretty much the exact same issues whether he was possessed by the spectre ([i]8.06 Southern Comfort[/i]) or completely himself ([i]8.23 Sacrifice[/i]).
So once again Dean’s actions are mitigated: [quote]Still in Deans mind I can see him holding onto that grudge.[/quote] And when did Sam ever throw anything back in Dean’s face? When did Sam unearth a grudge against Dean to use against him years later? Never, because that’s not Sam’s style. At every turn you excuse Dean’s behavior and then turn around in the next breath to berate Sam and claim that Dean had a right to do what he did. You dislike of Sam is palpable.
Percy – no doubt Dean chose to take on the MOC and lets not forget the First Blade too, he didn’t listen to the warnings, thats true as well. At that point Dean had a serious death wish, he didn’t care if it would kill him. Being a consumate Hunter (as they both are, they are just written stupidly when the plot requires it), even tho his personality type is all ,’damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead’ I find it hard to believe he didn’t even ask a single question about it but then again they were under a full scale demon attack – maybe he thought not the most opportune time to whip out the instruction manual? As far as mentioning it to Sam? Last year when clearly something was off with Dean and both Sam and Cas noticed it – it was hardly a blip on their radar until the end of the season and even then. My reaction would have been – Ahhhh!!! My God!!!!!! The MOC. Cas tell us everything you know!!! Call down the Host of Heaven!!!!! Lets go hit up Magnus’ lair!!!! See if Grandpa has any lore or records!!! Look in the MOL archives!!! Lets track down Cain!!!!!!!!!! Instead it was “Eh! Yawn…” They only freak out when Dean does and Dean doesnt know when that might happen and so far up until the massacre his actions have hardly been dire, you know??? Also last year Sam was all for Dean using the First Blade sparingly for the Big Boss fights. If he hadn’t changed into DDean this season and had survived the end of last – I think it would’ve been more of the same. No urgency… I’m not blaming Sam or Cas here I’m blaming lousy plotting and some lousy writing. So we will just have to agree to disagree as they say. If it is something done to them or say done to them after the fact. In other words Sam kept revisiting that well for demon blood but Deans falls under that one stupid action. Once the FBlade/MOC had its hooks in him so to speak – thats all she wrote. There is no returning to the well for him, there is no voluntary at this point. His goose was cooked the minute he took on the Mark. Sams soullessness falls under the same to me, just a different manifestation.
[quote]he didn’t listen to the warnings,[/quote]He did not let the warnings be told.[quote] At that point Dean had a serious death wish, he didn’t care if it would kill him. [/quote]No proof.(atleat I do not remember).[quote] Also last year Sam was all for Dean using the First Blade sparingly for the Big Boss fights.[/quote]Alycat22 meet negotiation.[quote]Ahhhh!!! My God!!!!!! The MOC. Cas tell us everything you know!!! Call down the Host of Heaven!!!!! Lets go hit up Magnus’ lair!!!! See if Grandpa has any lore or records!!! Look in the MOL archives!!! Lets track down Cain!!!!!!!!!![/quote]Mine would have been if you cannot apologize go to hell.
[quote] In other words Sam kept revisiting that well for demon blood but Deans falls under that one stupid action. Once the FBlade/MOC had its hooks in him so to speak – thats all she wrote. There is no returning to the well for him, there is no voluntary at this point. [/quote]
I disagree because 9.17 [i] Mother’s Little Helper [/i] was all about Dean contemplating what he would do next with his new powers. He knew that using the First Blade was a whole other thing.
[i] Crowley: — — What about you? Takes a junkie to know a junkie. You just want to touch that precious again, don’t you?
Dean: I want to kill Abaddon. That’s what I want. So, whatever happens with the Blade, I can’t worry about that.
Crowley: Sure. Whatever you got to tell yourself so you can sleep better at night.
Dean: Look, what I want, what I fear, none of that means squat. Because this is the one chance that we have to kill Abaddon. So, I’m all in, no matter what the consequences.
Crowley: So the plan remains the same?
Dean: I find her, you bring the Blade.
Crowley: It’s a date.
[Dean walks off down the street with his back to Crowley. Jake walks up.]
Jake: For a second there, I thought he made me.
Crowley: He has other things on his mind.
Jake: But he did do exactly what you said he would. He saved you.
Crowley: Of course he saved me. We’re besties. And now he’s ready. [/i]
From The End
[i]DEAN
So, you’re his vessel, huh? Lucifer’s wearing you to the prom?
SAM That’s what he said.
DEAN Just when you thought you were out, they pull you back in, huh, Sammy?
SAM So, that’s it? That’s your response?
DEAN What are you looking for?
SAM I don’t know. A—a little panic? Maybe?[/i]
Ending in
[i]DEAN
Look, Sam—it doesn’t matter—whatever we do. I mean, it turns out that you and me, we’re the, uh, the fire and the oil of the Armageddon. You know, on that basis alone, we should just pick a hemisphere. Stay away from each other for go[/i]
Then there was the the detox of Sam in When the Levee Breaks. A quick Google search of helping a relative detox at home makes it very clear that no matter what the drug being detoxed from, you don’t throw the person in a room and ignore them. You also don’t go into the situation saying they are better off dead.
Finally, I think you have to at least look at season three. Dean was going to Hell and he was doing everything he could to keep Sam from finding a way to save him. Dean didn’t ask for help with the Mark. He wasn’t worried. And, as season three showed, if Dean doesn’t want help, he will do what he can to stop anyone from helping him.
You think that Sam and Cas should have done more about researching the Mark. Maybe they should have, but the facts are that as a routine, no one does much to help the other out of non-immediate danger. Dean certainly has turned his back on Sam when Sam was asking for help and turned his back on Sam when Sam was trying to help him. I find it really interesting that so many fans find Dean being willing to leave Sam to deal with Lucifer alone and being willing to have Sam die during detox to be just fine, but then get upset that Sam isn’t running around trying to research the MOC, when Dean exhibits no interest in it and has resisted help in the past for far more obvious and immediate issues.
Prix – did I say how much I love you already?
What demons did Sam control before he started drinking demon blood? I don’t remember Show ever really indicating when Sam did, it was more insinuated – I always kind of thought it was pretty quickly once Ruby2 came into the picture. On some of your responses it seems you only break out the parts/snippets you want to address which often times will misconstrue what was said. How do you get no possession = live Sam? The Dr. even said there was no hope. Your logic escapes me. He didnt listen to the warnings ( my post) He didnt let the warnings be told (your post). Really? Aren’t you nitpicking here? I want to address everything you responded to but I don’t have all day to go back and forth while on a cellphone so for most of this we are going to have to agree to disagree. Clearly to me you see Dean as the guilty party who is always wrong regardless of his intent, but you rarely apply the same standards to Sam. I’m not that hung up on it. They are both culpable for so many different things. Theirs is an imperfect world. I love both characters even when they screw up and thats what makes this show so much fun to watch. I stand by everything I posted, your view may vary.
[quote]What demons did Sam control before he started drinking demon blood? [/quote]Sam did not.Someone like Sam did.This showed Sam had potential to do that but the thing was he had to align 100% with the demons.[quote]How do you get no possession = live Sam?[/quote]In the course of the show Sam and Dean have been resurrected Sans possession.[quote]The Dr. even said there was no hope.[/quote]This is supernatural they were dead many times and then they were alive.If we go by a doctor they should not be alive right now.[quote] He didnt listen to the warnings ( my post) He didnt let the warnings be told (your post). Really? Aren’t you nitpicking here?[/quote]No. what you said can mean that he did not heed to the warnings which cain told him.What I said was exactly what happened.[quote] Clearly to me you see Dean as the guilty party who is always wrong regardless of his intent, but you rarely apply the same standards to Sam. I’m not that hung up on it.[/quote]Again no.Dean is wrong now and i will not shy away from saying it.[quote]we are going to have to agree to disagree.[/quote]yes we do.
I’m hoping Dean is also deaged mentally, because instead of this being another ‘Sam appreciate your brother more’ it could be about how Dean doesn’t want his future to be so bleak, to ‘massacring’ Randy’s crew, Hell, the apocalypse. But then that might lead to an ‘inevitable fate’ type episode, which would totally undermine the tfw seasons 4-5. It would still be Dean-centric, just not another Sam learns more about his brother episode.
I also suspect it would have to do with the CBGB story Dean just told, I mean are we sure what age Dean was when they were in New York? I just seem to remember Sam saying ‘HE was way underage at the time’ WOuld this be Dean from pre/after- New York and being implicitly drugged/roofied? In fact will Supernatural say it explicitly? I mean they already showed him being roofied in the fat episode, so it’s a little easier than it would otherwise be to imply he was roofied there. Damn, apparently me and Adam Glass have been reading too much head-cannon hurt!Dean fanficiton.
That’s what I’m hoping for, a ‘THE ROAD SO FAR’ referencing the CGBG incident, or young!Dean dreading his bleak future, in other words physically AND mentally deaged Dean.
Then again, though I’ve enjoyed Adam Glass’ episodes, they’ve never been particularly spectacular, so I’m not holding my breath.
This is an interesting topic … and by interesting, I mean “[i]meh[/i]!”.
The passion you all have for a show that lost its creative way years ago is almost inspiring. I say “almost” because no form of discourse can erase the hogwash we fans have been dealt these past 4+ seasons. Season 6 started with a show-runner just trying to find her way, only to become a show with a show-runner that either hasn’t got a fucking clue, or simply doesn’t care.
Arguing about character development and canon issues from writers with proven track records of inconsistency is nonsensical. Adam Glass is not a good writer. His track record with DC comics is proven. There’s a reason he was replaced writing Suicide Squad for DC Comics “New 52”. It was terribly inconsistent, making the overall narrative pure garbage.
I generally want to blame show-runner’s for the nonsense we’re given – but the Supernatural writers aren’t helping the cause.
Look at [b]Eugenie Ross-Leming & Brad Buckner[/b]. They wrote one episode in season 1 (Route 666), and that was it. It also happened to be the worst episode in the Kripke years. Yes. Worse than [b]Bugs[/b]. Yet, though never being asked to write again for the remainder of Kripke’s reign as show-runner, once hubby[i] (Eugene is married to Robert Singer)[/i] is unofficially promoted to co-showrunner in season 7, due to Sera Gamble’s intended exit, they magically get bumped up to regulars, penning 4 episodes per season since (3 in season 6).
If they weren’t good enough for a call back from the show’s creator, why the fuck are they still here? nepotism is not what this show needs.
I’m sorry for the negativity. I hate mid-season hellatus, simply because it gives me too much time to ponder on what was, and what could be.
San -Yes Sam was soulless, yes he didn’t care. I established that but he still chose not to contact Dean to let him know but he did contact Bobby? Thats a choice he made. Im not saying it was right or wrong because, hello! soulless but I’m looking at it from Deans point of view. Why did Sam even bother to contact Bobby? Bobby didn’t indicate they were working jobs together or in contact with him like before – I never really even thought about that till now. Also per my posts I dont hold Soulless accountable for anything he did – his soulessness wasnt his fault or anything he could control.
Pandora – I think you are giving Adam Glass way too much credit here. I doubt he will go that deep. 🙂
Russ – there not known as the Nepotism Duo for nothing! I hate that they always get the myth arc episodes instead of expending their “talents” on a simple MOW ep nobody cares about. Gawd they are awful. It’s a shame the show won’t bring on some new blood.
Yeah I know, but I like to think you can only toot the same horn a certain number of times before you add in some fresh material, so I’m hoping for something a little different form AG’s typical episodes by enlightening us to young!Dean mentality during CBGB/bleak future.
Exactly. Sam did not. No possession = dead as a doornail Sam because according to you he wanted to die. This is Supernatural…. thats semantics! Dean had to go off what was right in front of him. Sam was dying, his Dr. confirmed the damage and the diagnosis. Dean was out of time. Nope, thats nitpicking. Tomato, tomatoe…
[quote] Sam did not[/quote]Ava did.[quote]No possession = dead as a doornail Sam because according to you he wanted to die.[/quote]He accepted that he was dying.[quote]This is Supernatural…. thats semantics![/quote]Nope because it is supernatural.[quote] Dean had to go off what was right in front of him. Sam was dying, his Dr. confirmed the damage and the diagnosis.[/quote]Sam was okay with dying .Dean also had that to go with but he did not.[quote] Dean was out of time.[/quote]Dean lied.He had time to lie.[quote] Nope, thats nitpicking. Tomato, tomatoe…[/quote]No it not. Tomato and Potato.Its just that I do not try to change what happened.
It doesn’t mean that. No possession = dead Sam = Sam brought back another way = show still on. Season 3, Dean died, Sam didn’t bring him back and the show didn’t end. Season 5, Sam died, Dean didn’t bring him back and the show didn’t end. Season 7 was the same. The show won’t end because a character dies and their sibling doesn’t ‘save’ him. The show went with Dean having Sam possessed because it ties in with Dean’s character.
LilahK – Wow I’d forgotten half of those kids!!! The actress that played Missy Bender was really good and then she returned in the role of Emma, Deans daughter. I love it when they do that – like Benny previously Eli the vampiric barkeep!
There is actually many more and they come to my memory the more I think about them. Like the episode where the cursed coin granted wishes? The bullied boy that got extra strength and the bullies. For some reason that made me think about Back to the future. And who would forget the girl and her bear whose Teddy bear doctors the boys needed to be. Also the children in the clown episode “ick” or well both of them… If you think of it there is whole lot of children in Supernatural. And of course BEN was great. 🙂
– Lilah
What? Sam is not Ava you cant compare the two as it was never shown to be an ability of Sams until the drinking of the blood.
What does Sam accepting he wanted to die have to do with your statement no posession = live Sam? Sorry my head hurts. I can’t’ follow your logic, you are all over the place. We definitely are not fully understanding one another, except that it seems like with you its simple Sam = good, Dean = bad. Theres no discussion possible when one is so rigid in their beliefs. But like I said, you see it your way, I see it mine. What confuses me is even when Im stating something positive about Sam you still disagree.
[quote] Sam is not Ava you cant compare the two as it was never shown to be an ability of Sams until the drinking of the blood. [/quote]It was not ava’s ability too.But Ava got that ability.It was stated in the episode how she got it.I would rather Sam drank demon blood to get those powers than what Ava did.[quote]No possession = dead as a doornail Sam because according to you he wanted to die.[/quote]This was your comment so I answered that.[quote]except that it seems like with you its simple Sam = good, Dean = bad. [/quote]No.But it is Okay if you think that.[quote]What confuses me is even when Im stating something positive about Sam you still disagree.[/quote]Maybe something you see as positive is not seen as positive by me.
Yeah that little girl with her gigantic teddy bear. When Sam said ‘So what do we wants to do here, kill it?’ Deans comeback – ‘How? Shoot it? Burn it? I don’t want a giant, flaming, pissed off teddybear on our hands!!!’ Classic. She was really good for such a young actress. And the kid? “Kneel before Todd!!!”
It’s really cool to see these little kids holding their own up against the acting chops of Jared and Jensen. Wow!
No possession = dead as a doornail… yeah you answered my initial statement – illogically. Based on you stating Sam wanted to die. Ergo – no possession = dead Sam.
Also if you want to say – its Supernatural, your right but while you look at the world with absolutes/black&white they don’t and I’d dare say they can’t afford to. They have to cross that gray line, be flexible and unfortunately do things they morally or ethically might not want to do. Including selling ones soul for a family member, having an angel save your brother from dying… Now I can’t believe I nust talked about the. like they are living human beings…
[quote]No possession = dead as a doornail.[/quote]They were dead before .In season 5 the two hunters killed them.They were dead as a doornail .How did the series continue.did it end there .No?..Sam actually was Okay that Dean died after sometime of intense grieving…Sam did not try to get Dean back.Did the show stop…did Dean come back?So Sam flat lining does not mean Sam will not come back.
[quote]No possession = dead as a doornail… yeah you answered my initial statement[/quote]I answered your illogical statement ..that was the problem.I never said he wanted to die.he accepted Death there is a difference.I nam not splitting hairs there is a huge difference between wanting to dies and accepting Death.They have died many times and comeback to life without possession.
Attie as so many have lointed out to me here – Sam wanted to die and Dean took that away from him. No possession therefore = dead Sam. He didn’t want to come back if he went with death. Resurrection… becomes a non issue then.
Sam didn’t ‘want’ to die. He accepted he was dying and didn’t want to be brought back because he knew how these things turned out. That’s what Dean took away from him; choice, free will and peace. Best interests or not, this is what Dean took away from Sam. And what he said he’ll take away from him again.
And here is my final question which Sam fans don’t seem to like to answer and I’m out. If Dean is this horrible, hurtful, untrustworthy lying sack of crap who pulled Sam back into hunting against his will and only berates, disrespects and hurts Sam so much – why didn’t, hasn’t, doesn’t he just leave Dean? Nothing is forcing him to stay. Deans even told him to choose several times. And don’t cop out and say because Sam loves him because you don’t have to be near your sibling to do that. Especially when one is so unhappy to be around the other. Sam has always threatened to leave but never does. Don’t wait until another Purgatory situation Sam – just go off and find that normal you’ve wanted your entire life!
[quote] If Dean is this horrible, hurtful, untrustworthy lying sack of crap who pulled Sam back into hunting against his will and only berates, disrespects and hurts Sam so much [/quote]Splendid strawman.Have fun arguing with that.[quote]why didn’t, hasn’t, doesn’t he just leave Dean?[/quote]Because Dean lied to him about the possession if he had not sam would have left him.sam was leaving Dean till they met back up in heaven.If you have problem with them meeting in heaven take it up with who ever made them soul mates.[quote] Nothing is forcing him to stay.[/quote]Mark of cain .It is not forcing him.But he is the only other human who knows about it.It did not seem that he has told sheriff about the mark.[quote] don’t have to be near your sibling to do that.[/quote]If only Dean understands this simple fact.[quote]Sam has always threatened to leave but never does.[/quote]He has left but he has come back..Because he values Dean’s life more then a fight they had (scarecrow).
But yeah if you think we assume that Dean is all those things then it is no wonder that you ask us that question.But yeah its your straw and you created him so you and him can talk back and forth.
First I don’t think anyone has said that Dean is a [i]orrible, hurtful, untrustworthy lying sack of crap who pulled Sam back into hunting against his will and only berates, disrespects and hurts Sam so much [/i]. We are making specific criticisms of Dean’s behavior. The same question could be asked as to why Dean fans, who say Dean can’t be blamed for the Apocalypse because Mary made the deal, but Sam can, who say that Sam isn’t a good enough brother because he objected to being possessed against his will, who say Sam is a crummy brother because he didn’t immediately start looking into the Mark of Cain, who say Sam is a horrible brother because he assumed that Dean knew how to walk out of a room without Sam’s help; why do these fans want Dean to not just kick Sam out of the bunker and the Impala? I would say that it’s because they know the show isn’t really Supernatural without Sam, however Dean fans are the ones happily declaring that Sam should have just died and then saying that’s what people who like Sam want, even though it isn’t.
If this were real life and Sam and Dean were real people that I knew and was friends with, I would probably consider their relationship to be less than good and I would probably be rooting for them to go separate ways. But it isn’t, so no matter how they behave (and yes, I have more issues with Dean’s behavior than Sam’s, just as you have more with Sam’s than Dean’s) in order for the show to continue Sam and Dean will remain close and in each others orbit.
[quote]If Dean is this horrible, hurtful, untrustworthy lying sack of crap who pulled Sam back into hunting against his will and only berates, disrespects and hurts Sam so much [/quote]
I challenge you to find one quote on this thread that says that. Who has said that? When did they say that? In what context? Find me a direct quote please and not your interpretation….a direct quote that proves that anyone here has said anything remotely like this. I don’t care to have words put into my mouth.
PercysO – Really with the google of how you help someone detox at home? Fairly certain google didnt have anything in their about demon blood!!! Or anything about the pros and cons of keeping said loved one locked up in a demon and ghost proof panic room either This is Supernatural, remember? Why does the real world have to apply? I get frustrated when I see people so rigidly stuck on what would really happen. Dean was in the same boat regarding Michael, he was just trying to do the most logical thing at that point. He wasn’t abandoning Sam to Lucifer. Lest we forget that if Dean welched out of the Hell deal, Sam would drop dead. And why do I think that there should’ve been more concern from the other 2 Team Free Will members regarding the .OC? Because its the MOC!
That is not a descripfion of how I currently feel or have ever felt about Sam and based on my posts supporting him I think that should be obvious. I also do not have more issues with Sam than Dean. I try and look at things not thru Dean tinted glasses where everything he does is right… I look at the overall picture. If I think Sams being an assclown, Ill say so. Same with Dean. And yes, if you take these many many posts collectively that is exactly how people are painting Dean. In a collective sense., not individually. This is not a Dean friendly site – obviously – but its interesting to hear other views.
Anonymous once again you missed the point. Im not talking about the possession or the MOC or a fight where Sam left and came back… Dean is not holding Sam against his will, Sam can leave at anytime to seek out his normal. He had the opportunity to leave over Benny and he didnt. To return to Amelia and he didnt. To make a complete break instead of the partners only ulimatum last season because Sam was so upset over Zeke/Gad possession and he didnt. Over Kevins death, and he didn’t. When Dean returned from Purgatory half the time Sam acted like he didnt want to be in the same room with him but yet he didnt leave. If I was that miserable I’d leave in a heartbeat. Over Dean killing Amy and he didnt…
Sorry first part of post responding to PercysO – stupid phone!
Anonymous -What does Sam being resurrected or whatever have to do with anything. Thats just an assumption of what could happen. Im not dealing with where the show wouldve or couldve gone HAD Sam died – Im simply supporting what you said about Sam accepting death, wanting to die – (symantics again…either way hes dead). Im looking at it from Deans standpoint of time running out, and a viable option is all of a sudden right there in front of him. Was it an ideal way? No, but it was the only thing he had. Dont forget too that he prayed for help and it was sent – for all he knew God couldve been answering his plea. If I were Dean I wouldve done the same thing. For someone so ready to accept death then why did he say yes to Zeke/Dean?
It wasn’t Dean’s decision to make. What should Dean have done? It doesn’t matter. Dean did what he did. But it still wasn’t up to him to make a decision for Sam about Sam’s life.
Sam is not Dean’s possession. And that is a really ironic pun if you think about it. Which apparently the writers haven’t.
This is the fundamental point of disagreement.
Because he thought the person standing in front of him pleading , using anything he could ‘There aint no me if there aint no you’ to get what was wanted was his brother. The argument is not whether Sam said yes it was how the yes was achieved .
lol Sharon, I should have looked at your answer before posting mine!
IMO, Sam said yes to Zeke/Dean because Dean said “There’s no me if there’s no you”. What was Sam supposed to do with that? He loves his bro and wasn’t going to let him kill himself. He also said yes because he trusted Dean. Unfortunately the trust was betrayed.
Dean didn’t come into Sam’s head and say if you let this angel possess you he says he can heal you. Dean knew that Sam would never agree to that and he would rather die. Why? Because every time Sam has been resurrected the result has been Dean dies and goes to hell, Lucifer rises innocent people die, comes back soulless innocent people die, possessed by angel Kevin dies, Dean gets MOC dies becomes demon. You are right Sam didn’t want to die. But he would have rather died than have yet again innocent people die because of him. He said yes to Dean because he trusted him. He didn’t say yes to Gadreel.
As a bi-pro fan I find this back and forth amusing. Especially when posters say -Dean mistreats Sam, Dean will find out what its like to have been in Sams shoes -how miserable it was, ect… Are you guys forgetting the episode Trial and Error? Both Sam and Dean voiced outright-no questions asked -how they both respect each other and how they see each other and what they want for each other. They have mutual respect. Dean sees Sam as intelligent and the person holding the family together and he wants Sam to have a normal life. Sam sees Dean as the leader he is and the hunter he is. Sam doesn’t follow Dean around because he has to-its because he wants to. Otherwise he would have left to be with Amelia when Dean told him to make his choice. Both feet in. Remember? That doesn’t sound like someone who isn’t giving another person a choice.
As for this “There is nom e if there ain’t no you”. I can’t remember when “Dean” said that exactly. If it was outside of the cabin . That was Sam saying that to Sam. Because all that happened in those scenes was Sams conscience trying to decide to live or die. If that line was IN the cabin (which I think it was actually) That was Zeke saying that to Sam not Dean. Zeke was being honest here-knowing that if he couldn’t possess Sam so he could cure himself -he may have died. Therefore Zeke was actually saying “if you die , I will die as well. I also disagree with those who say Dean made Sams choice for him. No-Dean gave Sam a choice. Sam was the one who had to decide to say yes or no to Zeke. Dean just gave him the option to do one or the other. Sam could have still said no.
With respect [b]Tia [/b] your view of the intial possession is vastly different to mine. The very nature of what was done and how it was done was tricking someone, Sam had no idea who he was facing and at this point he had already decided to move on which is why he asked Death to promise that nobody could bring him back this time , that nobody could get hurt because of him.
It was Dean and Gadreel who intervened with their plan to get Sam to say yes. Dean knew Sam would never say yes to being possessed which is why he and Gadreel had to trick him.
Sharon-nobody-Zeken or Dean was holding a gun to Sam to make him say yes. he did that on his own. Yes Zeke used Dean’s form but in no way did Zeke force Sam to say yes. If Sam was ready to die and really wanted to -He would have told Dean/ form that -I am done I am ready to die. Sam saw hope in what Dean/form said -that hope is what Sam used to say yes. Yea he said yes to living not yes to possession as he understood the “yes” so to speak-I will give you that. But in this case-possession was the means to life for Sam at that point. And Dean couldn’t explain himself directly in that moment-nor in moments after because Zeke interrupted Dean everytime he tried to tell Sam the truth.
Nobody is arguing Sam said Yes the issue is how it was done. There is no way of twisting it than he was tricked into it and Dean and Gadreel knew exactly what they were doing ,Sam did not give proper permission to the angel everything else that happened started from that point. The only thing Sam did was trust the brother he thought was in front of him .
In the end it was not a benign experience for Sam .
I understand what has you and others upset about the yes thing and how it relates to the possession thing. My point of view is this. When Sam said yes to Dean/form it was after Dean/form told Sam he had a plan. It gave Sam hope -something he didn’t have when he asked Death about bringing him back. Dean/form didn’t go into detail about what that plan was. And Sam didn’t ask (de ja vu with Dean and MOC -not asking about side effects). Sam said yes to life. Life at this point meant Zeke possessing Sam. Zeke didn’t tell Sam the whole truth. -possession- Dean couldn’t tell Sam what his plan was because Sam was in a coma. Dean plan = Sam saying yes to plan without asking what it was. Dean tried to tell him afterward but Zeke wouldn’t let him. I don’t see how Dean did anything wrong here. Obviously Sam wanted to live not die.I think that is selling Sam short. The possession could have been a good idea if it didn’t go so bad at the end. In hind sight-it was a horrible idea. But like the MOC it was the only option at the time. Have an angel possess Sam and heal him or have Sam die. Take on the MOC-the only thing that would kill Abaddon-or have her take thousands of innocent souls. In the end Zeke/Gadreel lived up to his promise. He did heal Sam (well he was healing Sam-until they had him expelled) But Zeke/Gadreel also killed while healing Sam which was horrible and he had to be expelled. Bad situation really. But in the end Gadreel turned out to be a good guy. My what a circle the writers did here. I don’t think they thought that arc out very well.
[quote] I don’t see how Dean did anything wrong here. Obviously Sam wanted to live not die.I think that is selling Sam short. [/quote]
It was for Sam to decide whether or not he was willing to risk letting an angel in just to have a chance to heal. It wasn’t Dean’s call to make. Yet Dean resorted to tricking Sam.
See my answer to you above. Dean didn’t trick Sam into anything. If you want to say Zeke tricked him OK. But Dean had no way of actually communicating with Sam directly. In fact Dean had no way of knowing how Zeke was going to present the “plan” to Sam . But what this all come down to is simple imo- Sam could have said no-anytime. Trick or no trick. the trick was living or dying reguardless how the characters got there. Sam chose to live. Dean had the means to have him live. period. Thanks for the discussion. But I think this discussion might go round and round forever. lol. so I will bow out now.
See my answer to you above. Dean didn’t trick Sam into anything. If you want to say Zeke tricked him OK. But Dean had no way of actually communicating with Sam directly. In fact Dean had no way of knowing how Zeke was going to present the “plan” to Sam . But what this all come down to is simple imo- Sam could have said no-anytime. Trick or no trick. the trick was living or dying reguardless how the characters got there. Sam chose to live. Dean had the means to have him live. period. Thanks for the discussion. But I think this discussion might go round and round forever. lol. so I will bow out now.
“The only thing Sam did was trust the brother he thought was in front of him”. That is correct. Sam trusted his brother Deans plan-whatever that was (he didn’t ask about it).
When Sam asked, [i] “What do I do?” [/i] it was an opening to let Sam know about the true nature of the plan. But Dean and Gadreel needed to trick Sam into saying yes. Thus, Sam was prompted, [i] “Is that a yes?” [/i] They had laid the groundwork so as soon as Sam said yes, Gadreel possessed him.
“When Sam asked, “What do I do?” it was an opening to let Sam know……”. You seem to be suggesting SanSummer1 that Dean was there physically and able to tell Sam anything. I know you know he wasn’t there. Zeke was. Dean wasn’t. Dean couldn’t react to anything Sam said or did in those Sam scenes. Only Zeke. If you want to change you argument to – Zeke tricked Sam into saying yes- I would agree. I would also agree if you wanted to say Dean came up with a shady plan in that it was shady because Zeke had to be Dean in order to have any hope that Sam might say yes.. But Dean also new at the time of the plan that Sam was giving up. He didn’t know for sure if Sam would say yes or no. He only knew he could give Sam an option. One he would have given him in total openness if he could have. But he couldn’t. Sam was in a coma. Dean had no way of communicating with Sam directly. He left complete communication with Sam upto Zeke. And like I said before-Once Sam was awake-Dean wanted to tell him about the possession. Zeke wouldn’t let him. Again-I just don’t see Dean at fault here. Not even a little bit.
You can’t say definitively that Dean wasn’t there. Dean WAS there, definitely to hear Sam talking to Death and so he is responsible there because he KNEW what Sam had decided and that decision didn’t suit him.
I am convinced he was there also to know what to say to Sam to get him to say yes – Zeke knew nothing at all about Sam and there is no indication that angels are omniscient – then Zeke took over. You might not agree, but you can’t assert that it is fact that it wasn’t Dean the second time, it is not backed up in the episode.
I don’t agree with anything you posted eilf sorry. Dean wasn’t “there” in physical form to interact with Sam when Sam was talking to Death. If he was physically there, wouldn’t it have been logical for Sam to acknowledge Dean standing there while Sam spoke to Death? Dean doesn’t read minds. He knows his brother trusts him -that is all Dean knows 100%. Dean knew Sam would at least listen to Dean/form. But he had no way of knowing if Sam would say yes or no to anything Dean/form said or did. Dean wasn’t there. Zeke was. The episode DID back up that Dean wasn’t there. We saw Dean/form manifest into Zeke right after Sam said yes. MANIFEST-not change places with. And if Sam didn’t see Dean before -why would he have been able to see the real Dean during the Dean/form time?
Oh, yay I love it when I get a chance to post this bit of transcript 😀 (I love this bit of transcript, and I get to post it a lot oddly enough) Dean was there. He knew what Sam decided. He chose to ignore that. And if Dean was there the first time which he WAS then it is entirely possible that he was there the second time too. And I believe he was. I also believe he was talking to Death *shrug*
INT. HOSPITAL ROOM – DAY
DEAN If I consider this – and I mean just consider it – I need something, man. You got to prove to me how bad he is.
EZEKIEL puts a hand on SAM’s forehead.
EZEKIELClose your eyes.
DEAN does so. EZEKIEL puts his other hand on DEAN’s forehead.
DEATH (VOICE-OVER)
I must admit, when I heard it was you…
INT. COMA CABIN – DAY
DEATH and SAM are sitting in armchairs near the fire.
DEATHWell, I had to come myself.
SAMI bet you get off on this.
DEATHPerhaps. But not in the way you assume. I consider it to be quite the honor to be collecting the likes of Sam Winchester. I try so hard not to pass judgment at times like this – not my bag, you see, but you… Well played, my boy.
SAMI need to know one thing.
DEATHYes.
SAMIf I go with you… can you promise that this time it will be final? That if I’m dead, I stay dead. Nobody can reverse it, nobody can deal it away… and nobody else can get hurt because of me.
DEATHI can promise that.
INT. HOSPITAL ROOM – DAY
EZEKIEL takes his hand away from DEAN’s forehead.
DEANWhat the hell you doing, Sam?
EZEKIELAs you can see, there’s not much time.
C’mon Tia, the “Dean form” said to Death “Sorry I didn’t bring cronuts (sp?)” Is that a thing that Gadreel would say, or even know about? It might not have been Dean in Sam’s mind, but Gadreel was definitely channelling Dean’s mind, with Dean’s consent. Sam thought he said “yes’ to Dean, not Gadreel, hence, Dean tricked Sam.
[quote] One he would have given him in total openness if he could have. But he couldn’t. Sam was in a coma. [/quote]
No he wouldn’t have although he did bring up the issue of Sam having been in a coma. Dean made the decisions that he did based on thinking that Sam would rather die than be possessed by anything.
[b] 9.09 Holy Terror [/b]
[i] Sam/Gadreel: So… Again. You thought I couldn’t handle something, so you took over!
Dean: No, I did what I had to do! You would’ve never agreed to it, and you would’ve died. [/i]
When Gadreel said that Sam could eject him at any time, Dean decided to keep the possession as a secret.
The responsibilty was never on Sam in that entire situation ,there was alot of ‘he did not ask about the plan’ or he could of said ‘no’ last year after the possession as well . It is making the victim responsible for what was done rather than Dean and Gadreel .
[quote]Zeken or Dean was holding a gun to Sam to make him say yes. [/quote]They do not need to.You see as you said they were in Sam’s head .Or does it matter only when you comment.Physically there could be no gun.[quote] Zeke used Dean’s form but in no way did Zeke force Sam to say yes.[/quote]Nice strawmwn there “bi-bro” fan.When someone says Dean tricked Sam counter it by saying no Dean did not hold a gun tia Sam’s head.You and alycat can argue with that .Have fun.
This episode could go either way. I don’t think this is going to be a lesson filled episode for the Winchesters. I am curious to see if de-aged Dean (I hate that term) is adult Dean in a 14 year old body or if it is actually a 14 year old Dean. And how the whole MOC thing plays into that.
Hi Tia,
I was wondering that myself. The de-aged thing seems to imply it’s adult Dean but his age is rolled back. Not that young Dean has been brought forward. I am not really sure about that. 🙂 You should come out of lurkdom more often we could use a few more bi-bro fans here. The blaming of one brother or the other gets old.
Back to lurking. I have never posted here-maybe years ago maybe -but this back and forth was so amusing and the “Sam was tricked” thing -just had to throw in. Ok bye bye.
[b] 9.09 Holy Terror [/b]
[i] Dean: I let an angel in.
Sam/Gadreel: In what?
Dean: In you. He said he could heal you and he is.
Sam/Gadreel: He’s still in me? Wait. (laughs) That’s impossible, Dean. That couldn’t happen. I never invited him in.
Dean: [b] I tricked you into saying yes. [/b] It seemed like the only way. [/i]
SanSummer1 I took that as Dean acknowledging that he was the one who let Zeke try to heal Sam thru possession. Not acknowledging that he took Sams decision making away. In other words, yea Dean came up with a plan – that plan was having Zeke possess Sam in order to heal him . Sam still had to say yes of his own free will for it to take place. TI think he was talking more about letting Zeke be him when trying to convince Sam to say yes -not the plan as whole so to speak. But bottom line -Sam has to say yes of his own free will- which he did.
Sam could have said no in theory but the point is that Sam was tricked into saying yes.
[b] 9.01 I Think I’m Gonna Like It Here [/b]
[i] Dean: Even if I said yes, it doesn’t mean squat. Sam will never say yes – not to you.
Gadreel: But he would say yes to you. [/i]
Then certain words were used to groom Sam for the possession.
[i] “I can fix this, okay? But not if you shut me out.” [/i] [i] “But you got to let me in, man.” [/i]
Sam didn’t get to make an informed decision. Because Sam put his trust in Dean, Gadreel was able to possess Sam. Dean let the angel in Sam.
[quote] I took that as Dean acknowledging that he was the one who let Zeke try to heal Sam thru possession. Not acknowledging that he took Sams decision making away. In other words, yea Dean came up with a plan – that plan was having Zeke possess Sam in order to heal him . [/quote]Nice stretching of the words to make Dean clean.Yeah but it is just that *whitewash Dean*.
Tia – Great points!!!! BRAVO. You condensed what I’ve been trying to say with my scattershot comments into one very articulate post!!! Sadly you are right tho, this will just keep going around and around to no end. Everyone has their way of looking at things…
Please don’t go back to just lurking (and this is coming from a Dean Girl who loves Sam) – We need more bi-bro!!! It’s tough in here man!!!
Thanks AlyCat223. lol. I have been lurking here for awhile now. It does seem to be alittle heavy handed at times. I feel your pain man I really do.
Wiith respect it is not a way of looking at things that is what was done. Sam was tricked , people are not plucking it out of the air just to be mean to Dean. That is what the show gave us that is what Dean admitted to .
Eilf – By the same token you cant say that he definitely was. Think show left it unclear so that it would be up to our own interpretation.
[quote]You can’t say definitively that Dean wasn’t there. Dean WAS there, definitely to hear Sam talking to Death and so he is responsible there because he KNEW what Sam had decided and that decision didn’t suit him.
[b]I am convinced he was there[/b] also to know what to say to Sam to get him to say yes – Zeke knew nothing at all about Sam and there is no indication that angels are omniscient – then Zeke took over. [b]You might not agree, but you can’t assert that it is fact[/b] that it wasn’t Dean the second time, [b]it is not backed up in the episode.[/b][/quote]
not sure where the argument is Alycat? The word ‘I’ in ‘I am convinced’ is important here. Where did I say that he definitely was? You are misinterpreting what I said.
Tia – Thanks right back at you! You know, sometimes I think it would help for the sake of discussion if some of the grievances of what one brother has done to the other (or in general) in the past could be left there – in the past. If you look at the story as it has progressed and changed and grown over the years, so have the Winchesters. I like to discuss whats happening to them now – the – Oh yeahs? Well what about when Dean/Sam did this, dredging up crap from much earlier seasons – gets old. I understand it can be and often is relevant to the conversation but when you are deluged with post after post of entire quotes from older episodes or only parts of your comments are addressed which can change the original overall thought and misconstrue the meaning – that? Not so much fun. I don’t know if I’m saying this right. I can see why this is Sam Central because like to hear it or not, you guys make it really hard for anyone else to be here. I’m not saying everybody – please don’t misunderstand. And I’m not saying that any one particular poster does this all the time. I love your passion and I really like the conversations and back and forth but when I joke about VERBALLY girding my loins to step back into the arena – sometimes it really feels that way!!! 🙂
Yea I don’t like the Dean did this/Sam did that thing either. Because in reality both brothers have been wrong and have been wronged by the other. But as Trial and Error proves without a shadow of a doubt. The brothers respect and love each other for who they are as a person. Some in the fandom might want to say one brother is getting the short stick from the other but that is not what the show shows week in and week out. Good luck to you AlyCat22. I applaud you for “grinding your loins” before you post here. lol.
[quote]Some in the fandom might want to say one brother is getting the short stick from the other but that is not what the show shows week in and week out.[/quote]That is your view point.You do not speak for the show.
[quote] I understand it can be and often is relevant to the conversation but when you are deluged with post after post of entire quotes from older episodes or only parts of your comments are addressed which can change the original overall thought and misconstrue the meaning – that? Not so much fun. I don’t know if I’m saying this right. I can see why this is Sam Central because like to hear it or not, you guys make it really hard for anyone else to be here. I’m not saying everybody – please don’t misunderstand. And I’m not saying that any one particular poster does this all the time. I love your passion and I really like the conversations and back and forth but when I joke about VERBALLY girding my loins to step back into the arena – sometimes it really feels that way!!![/quote]
I hope you don’t mind me quoting part of your comment so I can address it.
It’s funny you should mention that Alycat (because I was actually composing a response to you about that). You have started a lot of discussions today and yesterday – with people who didn’t agree with you. And honestly it wasn’t any of THEIR fault that there were no people on site at the time who DID agree with you. There often are (people who would agree with you) as at present.
Many of your discussions were started by you with people that you addressed by name so they should be able to respond I would have thought? And at least one of your discussions was you addressing ancient history. Good for you, you want to debate, this is a good place for a debate, because a lot of it is based on canon and actual transcripts and other evidence and not just gut feeling (though at this stage we have to have a lot of gut feeling as well, because the canon has gotten right thin). As I said last night a lot of these arguments are now set in stone and nobody’s mind is likely to be changed. *shrug*
I know you had a lot of irons in the fire but that actually doesn’t add up to people ‘ganging up’ on you you know? You have said several times today words to the effect of that you are being ganged up on and it really is kind of unfair. If you feel that you have too many people arguing with you then argue with fewer people. Or maybe don’t always go for the greatest hits of things that cause high blood pressure in other commenters?
AYou have had a good few people agree with you as well. Various people didn’t agree with you because …. well … they don’t agree with you. You seem tenacious, and honestly to be pro-Sam in today’s SPN environment all those people who don’t agree with you have to be tenacious too. They feel strongly about what they believe. In general they aren’t angry they are just convinced (like you are) that the error of the other persons view can be seen. You aren’t going to change minds any more than I am going to change yours. They were all disagreeing with various different points you have made. However I don’t suppose any of them would chase after you if you said ‘agree to disagree’ and then left it at that. It is partly up to you TOO you know? For instance I am currently answering you just from my point of view. If someone else decides to respond that has nothing to do with me.
I was wondering where you usually post where it is evenly divided between Samgirls and Deangirls and nobody feels the need to discuss the opposing side of any point? I would like see how it is done. See if people will be as reasonable as honestly people are being here. It would be nice to think there is somewhere else on the internet it is safe to post as a person who likes Sam as well as Dean.
I am now done with this point. WFB is bi-bro, the fact that commenters have opinions is not really WFB fault. They just ask us to be reasonable about it, I don’t think anyone today has been terribly unreasonable, some of them (as I said) just don’t agree with you. I hope that you find more peaceful lines of discussion with people of a like mind.
Ok. You can’t say definitely that Dean was there. I am convinced he…. Better?
I as in me, myself and I. Not you.
eilf-your transcript proves my point not yours. Again-see my post down below (started up at top-gets confusing to keep scrolling down to conversation). Don’t you think if Dean was PHYSICALLY present in the cabin during the Sam and Death conversation -Sam would have acknowledged Dean being there. Dean was there metaphysically (I think that’s the word) not physically. Let me ask you this Eilf- Was Dean and Cas “there” when Crowley was in Sam’s head telling him to expel Gadreel? Was Sam able to see Dean and Cas? Was Dean and Cas able to communicate with Sam himself during that scene? The answer to all of those questions is “NO”. So if Dean and Cas weren’t there nor able to communicate with Sam then why do you think Dean was “there” to communicate with Sam during the Dean/form scene?
My point was that Dean was there and that he heard Sam’s decision. Dean was there. It says so in the transcript. He then ignored Sam’s decision and made a decision to trick Sam. Whether Dean could communicate with Sam at that stage is neither here nor there since he didn’t try and Sam didn’t notice him (possibly because he couldn’t see him). Since the entity that showed up the second time into the SAME ENVIRONMENT (who I believe to initially be Dean and later be Zeke: DEAN: Even if I said yes, it doesn’t mean squat. Sam will never say yes – not to you. EZEKIEL But he would say yes to you.) could be seen and heard there is a grey area about the type of presence the first time.
What Dean did was he gave Sam the same option Death gave Sam thru Zeke. Live or Die. He didn’t ignore Sams decision. Sam chose death with Death (you know what I mean lol) because there was no other option at that time. With Dean/form -when Sam had another option (one in which Dean gave him thru Zeke) he chose life. I don’t see the problem here. By the way you didn’t answer my question or respond to the Dean/Cas question. It is the same scenario. If you really want to get down to it. You are ASSUMING that what Dean/form said to Sam was the “plan” that Dean and Zeke came up with. In reality we as an audience never really “heard” or saw what the actual full plan was. Maybe the plan that Dean and Zeke came up with was that Zeke turns into Dean to start out with -explaining what needed to be done to have Sam get healed -the possession -being honest-and then have Dean/form manafest back to Zeke and have Zeke ask Sam yes or no. But Zeke didn’t do that plan but instead lied to Sam the whole time. And when Dean asks Zeke later maybe Zeke says he couldn’t tell him the truth. We really don’t know for sure what the actual real “plan” was. It never was truly stated in the episode. Ok I am done. Thanks for the conversation eilf but I don’t think either one of us is going to change their mind.
I don’t understand your Dean/Cas point. I don’t see that there can be any relevance to this discussion?
Your point about what we KNOW as an audience is the point I have been making all along about things that might be ambiguous (which the second visit IS. The first visit isn’t) so at least we have that to agree on 🙂
Thanks for the discussion.
[quote] He didn’t ignore Sams decision.[/quote]He decieved Sam.Plain and simple.he knew the conversation Sam was having with death.he knew it thru zeke.he deceived Sam same as all the demons and angels.He had to get an yes thru Sam and he got it.Dean succeeded.sam trusted Dean and then lost his trust and then got blamed for it.
Tia – They (Dean and Zeke) “groomed” Sam for the possession – kinda like Lucifer “groomed” Sam for the possession, don’t ‘cha know.
Personally I’m sure that if Sam had been awake and Dean had the chance to present the plan to Sam, both pros and cons – Sam would’ve said yes. Well, really pretty sure. Ha! I never bought the “I was ready to die, Dean!” as much more than crappy writers angst. It didn’t make sense how one minute (in the barn) Sams all – choose life!!! Then the angels fall, he’s Mr. Coma in a hospital bed and he does a 180?
[quote] They (Dean and Zeke) “groomed” Sam for the possession – kinda like Lucifer “groomed” Sam for the possession, don’t ‘cha know. [/quote]
It’s pretty obvious that Sam was told things like [i] “you got to let me in” [/i] so Gadreel could take Sam’s yes as a permission to possess Sam even though Sam didn’t know what was about to happen.
According to Julian, Death wasn’t really there – just simply a construct of Sams mind. Just throwin that out there….
Julian also made it clear that he really doesn’t know an awful lot about the show. Again believe what you want to believe. That scene is a cornerstone of goodness in the show for me and I honestly don’t care if anyone else has a different opinion. Good for them 🙂 As I understand it he said the exact opposite at the next con, so there you go ….
If Death wasn’t really there, where was Sam’s reaper? We saw Tessa and Bobby’s reapers before they died. Where was Sam’s? And what eilf said below.
Tia – “grinding my loins”? Well yeah, I guess I could do that too…. 😉 Don’t try and blame that one on a typo or auto correct either you bad, bad girl!!!!
Sam wasn’t just “ready to die” he was going to die. He was not going to survive his injuries. He was in the cabin with Death who was going to reap him personally. As Sam said he was ready to die but only if Death could guarantee that he would not be brought back by supernatural means. He did not want anyone else (Kevin) to be harmed because of him. Dean was put into a no win situation. He heard what Sam said. The doctor told Dean that Sam would not survive. Dean prays for help, it is his only chance to save Sam. He knows that Sam would never agree to possession “he would rather die”. Gadreel knows that in order for Sam to say yes he has to say it Dean. Sam has to be tricked. Dean knows it too and agrees. I believe that Gadreel was channeling Dean, it was Dean talking to Sam and Death. Only when Sam agreed to trust Dean did Dean then morph into Gadreel. It was Dean who tricked Sam as he admitted in Holy Terror. But you are right Sam didn’t want to die. He said so earlier in the episode. The whole point of stopping the Trials “was not to die”. Dean begged Sam to trust him and continue to fight to live. And Sam did. And Kevin died.
San – it was a joke, jeesh – lighten up a little. Brass tacks – its simple. Whether you believe Dean was or wasnt’ in Sams mind is irrelevant. The sticking point is the idea that Sam was “tricked” to saying yes (kinda a harsh way of putting it, but ok) to something he had no knowledge of. My counter to this is – I don’t care! I don’t care how it was presented just that it was. I don’t disagree with what Dean did regarding the circumstances at that very moment. Not only was time ticking away but Zeke shut off all the equipment to further push Deans fragile emotional state. Ouch. In retrospect, knowing what we know now about Zekes true identity and that he wasn’t the good angel he proposed that he was – at that moment he played Dean like a Stradivarius. In the end Dean had no idea eiverything would go South like it did and if there had been any other option he would’ve taken it. If it had worked like it was supposed to, it would’ve been a great plan. Shame Dean didn’t remember his own words – angels are dicks (or shady politicians from the Planet Vulcan) When push shoved, he saved Sam -in typical straight from the heart, messy, shoot first, ask questions later, Dean fashion and thats why I love this character.
*considering* the circumstances – not regarding!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Eilf – I don’t always address a certain person. I did especially yesterday because the responses were coming so fast that I couldn’t keep up with a quick one on one. Having to comment using a phone/data plan instead of hi spd internet is a great disadvantage. Either the site submit button wont work when I hit it or everything freeses up on the scroll so I cant see what I have typed or roll up to try to further see the question/questions I’m responding to. It also helps keep things straight when you are having multiple conversations.
That being said if you don’t see how someone who doesn’t completely agree with the Sammy line would not be entirely comfortable on this site then I can’t help you. I’m not playing victim here – have at it – post what you want. The reason I referenced bringing up the past as in Dean did this, Sams at fault for that… sometimes it just bogs down the conversation, throwing it off into a tangent and then its Sam and Dean Part X. To be “Pro Sam in this environment” you have to be tenacious too? What environment? A message board? Doesnt that seem a little extreme? Its conversation, its not like we are going into battle. I use gird my loins in a humorous fashion. Like I said, I understand passion but maybe if you guys tone it back a notch more conversation as opposed to (your word) arguments could be had. Not trying to start anything but it seems like everytime I post here I’m told I’m the problem. I see a pattern here and it isnt me – well, you guys would say it is, so for the sake of argument (theres that word again) lets say it is, partly. I pretty much try to keep it light – as I said I’m not interested in Sam/Dean wars – the nuances to the character, the motivations, the storyline – not Dean bad/good, Sam bad/good, way back in Season Two at the 17.5 minute mark… If you see it as anything different or my use of humor escapes you or offends you I don’t know what to tell you. I will say though that this is the only site I have ever experienced where you can say something good about Sam and it still end up a negative thing… Just sayin’
Alice asked me to continue posting on the board because she felt the opposite view was important. Thats when I came up with the whole “girding my loins” comment. She fully understood why.
Hi Alycat. thank you for your response. I see I missed a reference to ‘argue’ I tried to take them all out of my comment … ‘rebuttal’ is a good word too I realized later. I am sorry I was using ‘tenacious’ the way you used ‘gird my loins’. Oddly enough I have a sense of humor too 🙂 I don’t really consider WFB should be (or is) a battleground so I am glad to see you feel the same way.
By the way you didn’t answer my question about other sites to post. I asked that in all seriousness. I have ventured out into the SPN world and it seems pretty harsh for the most part. As you find it is difficult posting here I would like to see what the more easygoing alternatives are?
Have fun on the site.
Alycat you know it’s interesting because I actually think that Gadreels story was the most well written of all of last years plotlines. I really believe that in the beginning Gadreel really wanted to do the honorable thing. I think he did want to be the hero, the good guy. He was healing Sam and saving him from certain death as well as Cas and Charlie. I don’t think he meant any harm to Sam or Kevin. It wasn’t until he overheard Dean plotting with Kevin that he decided to go with Metatron (who knew exactly what to say to Gadreel to manipulate him). In the end he did do the honorable thing and put those the angels were supposed to protect above his own selfish desires. I really enjoyed his story the most.
Cheryl – Yeah, Ill agree. Rethinking the entire plotline for Gad maybe he did start out with good intentions like I originally saw it. I was just looking at it hindsight wise as maybe he played Deans emotions to get a vessel. I was just seeing that scene where he waved his arm and the machines turned off and the heart monitor flatlined? I just remembered how desperate Dean was that very second, so I was seeing it in a possibly different way. So back to thinking misguided good guy. I loved Tamoh in that part and that was one of the better storylines, no doubt. It killed me when he blew himself up!!! There went another great character… sigh.
Eilf – I’m not here to change minds, convert or argue. Simple conversation. That’s it.
Eilf – And what would these greatest hits, taboo topics that cause elevated blood pressure be? Just so I know what I can and can’t “debate” safely.
Eilf – I never specifically mention other sites while on a site because the sites ive been on don’t allow it so as to avoid site bashing? So I’m really not comfortable saying. Google Supernatural for Boards there are many out there as you know. Some better than others. It is frustrating to find a neutral site tho. I like to leave a board when Im finished happy with the conversation and connection with others, not like I just left my corner in the ring, you know? And I do want to converse with you, I mean no harm or aggravation. 🙂
Eilf – Maybe its just a matter of earning your stripes, trial by fire type thing until the other posters get to know you and accept you but it is hard to post here. I’m not a wilting flower, I can give as good as I get but thats not my personality and thats not why I come to this board. I’m not giving up tho I can see why others have. Like I said, it isnt every poster and it isnt every post of those posters – its just the general atmosphere here dude! You Sam girls are tough!!! (Has it escaped y’alls attention that hes 6’4 and is capable of taking care of himself?) Did you know Abraham Lincoln was the same height? Mmmmmm…. President Padalecki…
[quote] You Sam girls are tough!!! (Has it escaped y’alls attention that hes 6’4 and is capable of taking care of himself?) [/quote]
I’m sorry but enough with the “you Sam girls this and that”. The people posting on this site are not a homogenous group. Discussing the possession storyline isn’t merely about Sam vs. Dean.
Eilf – Abraham Lincoln – that just made me think of the Paris Hilton episode where Sam was standing close to A. Lincolns wax figure looking him eye to eye!
Sorry San I call it the way I see it and in this case – board, not storylines – its the Sam girls. You cant deny this is a Sam centric board.
Anonymous. Free will. Google it. Dean can influence Sams decision but ultimately whether he has the facts or not, regardless of what Dean did, Sam still could say no. Or yes. Or if he were particularly unsure that day, then he could use another word, maybe.
[quote] Dean can influence[/quote]influence=/=tricking.You can influence people without tricking them.[quote]ultimately whether he has the facts or not, regardless of what Dean did, Sam still could say no. [/quote]Yes he could have.He chose to trust Dean.he was betrayed even by Dean .His trust in Dean was abused.But that is the thing about people.When new facts come to light they get influenced by it.He was given a deception..he chose to believe his brother.His yes was not for possession.
It appears that You need to google some words too.;)
Anonymous – Tia was just stating her opinion, how she saw it. She/I aren’t trying to white wash Dean. We don’t care enough about it. Its just conversation not confrontation.
I have said it before and I will say it now ..How you saw it is immaterial to how the show has shown it.The show has shown Dean being part of that deception and Tia explained it away as Dean not knowing the plan. oh she can think whatever about whatever was shown.But she is not the show.
But it is quite obvioue based on these 200 odd posts alone that people interpret what they see differently. Or show is deliberately vague. Or you don’t see the entire scene. Its not always that cut and dry. Your saying what someone saw as opposed to what Show presented is immaterial is also immaterial. And is your opinion. What are you, the Show Police? Way to welcome a new poster to the site.
[quote]Way to welcome a new poster to the site.[/quote]I am not the welcoming committee too.You want to post here .Post here .Do not expect a welcome from me.I do not want to beshow police.But if you act like the show I will act like show police.[quote]Your saying what someone saw as opposed to what Show presented is immaterial is also immaterial.[/quote]see good.I am glad we are clear where we stand.[quote] Or show is deliberately vague. [/quote]It was not vague.But if you infuse vagueness into it i will definitely call it out.
You can trick, lie, bamboozle, tell the truth, speak Urdu. – it doesn’t matter. You cannot force that perzon to say yes.
Then isn’t it silly to tell Dean didn’t force Sam .If you cannot force a person to say yes.actually it matters ,maybe not to you but it did to Sam and that is the only thing I care.
No you cannot but as I have stated that was not the issue. In all of this need to whitewash Dean’s action and I saw it last year around different places , the victiim blaming was not very pleasant to see . Where does Sam come into it? people put the onus back on Sam because he said yes so therefore it must validate the tools Dean and Gadreel used to get him to say yes . Sam being tricked cannot count because he was not forced to say Yes so therefore he wanted to live anyway .
And besides did not the show downplay the whole possession by calling it ‘shared housing’ so why the fuss of Sam being tricked and Gadreel was a nice angel who did not really mean any harm . And besides Dean just loves his brother too much and just cannot help himself , these are the comments circulating last year and even now .But in none of it was Sam thought about just a need to protect Dean and excuse what he did and that was just as much what the show itself did as well. The bottom line is Sam was tricked whether it was the wrong thing for the right reasons , he was tricked .
Nope. I see the storyline for what it is. No need to google or be schooled how to watch. Been doin fine on my own. Thanks. I’m not hung up on what either character did so much so that I can’t get past it.
[quote] No need to google or be schooled how to watch[/quote]same here.
Like I said, it’s conversation, not confrontation. Its a show. Interesting to watch and discuss. Its a good thing you act in the capacity of Show enforcement instead of new introductions to the site.
[quote]Show enforcement instead of new introductions to the site.[/quote]???
Whats silly is to think that Dean did force Sam. You cant make someone say yes. But we are just going to go around and around and still end up in the same place. A discussion is interesting, this is just repetitious.
Show enforcement, Show Police. You know, the job where you call out other posters that you take so seriously. Dude, relax.
I understood the first part but what about the second.I am relaxed.Do you have a hidden camera in my room to tell me to relax?
Alycat I have read everyone of these 200 posts (mostly from the same 15 or so posters) and no where did anyone say that Dean forced Sam to do anything. Tricked, using Sam’s trust was what was shown. We were supposed to be shocked at what Dean had done. It was the set up to show Dean’s eventual fall. The show went out of it’s way to pile on the ramifications of the deception. Dean knew it and so did Gadreel that was why they kept it a secret. They were both afraid that if Sam knew the truth he would eject the angel. Dean knew Sam well enough given Sam’s history with possession that Sam would choose death rather than be possessed. Hence the lie. Good intentions, slippery slope.
Cheryl – I get all that. Forced was just a word I used from someone elses comment somewhere. I don’t have a problem with how it went down. I understand it. I know that some are upset over the deception and how they view Dean got Sam to say yes. My point was simply no one can make you say yes (unless of course I suppose if their were a gun placed to ones head it might be different – but would it count?). Influence through trickery, emotional blackmail, verbal threats or crying, screaming and having a fit but the choice is still yours. Free will.
And as I also said in a previous post – I don’t care enough about it to “whitewash” Dean.
And that is fair enough but that is where you and I part company . I do feel strongly aout what was done to Sam the implications of it and how it was handled by the show.
I agree Sharon… to whitewash forced consent? Really? With an audience that is largely women? Holy Crap!! On a fundamental social level it was offensive in the extreme that Sam did not get a voice about his side of things. Let’s blame the victim or worse downplay the fact that he was victimized altogether and make the victim himself do the downplaying. It’s revolting. ‘Sam was possessed against his will, but he kinda liked it’ is basically what they are saying, so Dean’s “I’d do it again” is seen as the right thing rather than the wrong thing that it was. Its so incredibly offensive; as a woman I am offended. They need a strong female voice in the writers room tout-suite and Eugenie Ross-Leming aint it! Can you imagine her trying to tackle a sensitive and socially relevant topic such as forced consent? She’s already proven that they are totally insensitive to unflattering racial overtones. An African American actress in a dog collar? who calls her familiar witch Master?!?! Ugh! Racist and sexist in one go! I was offended by the story line and doubly offended for Sam as a character.
And it has nothing to do with blaming Sam or negating that he was tricked… it is what it is, which is free will.
Show did downplay it later and I hated that. It went from Gad calling the shots with Sam none the wiser to shared housing and he doesn’t really mean any harm and Sam didn’t feel threatened. What!?! Who wrote that anyway??? Oh and then that day Dean and Crowley catch up to Sam and he says something to the effect of ‘Your friends are…’indicating Cas and Gad. What?!? Who wrote that? I liked the Gad storyline and how he finally found redemption (Tamoh is fantastic) but did they have to kill off another great character!?!?!
Cheryl – and just for the record I dont care what Dean (and Zeke) did or did not do in that impossible situation because ultimately they saved Sammys life. Bottom line he’s still around, alive and kicking and thats what matters to me.
Hey, off topic but did you guys see that clip on you tube? I don’t have the link – just look up “Sammy, Sammy, Sammy” – SUPERNATURAL REMIX by Marius KC. Pretty funny.
I don’t know about anyone else who has posted about this topic but for me it isn’t about Sam vs Dean. The story just is what it is. The possession was a vehicle to get Dean into a head space to take on the MOC, be killed by Metatron and become a demon. I guess some had a huge problem with taking away a persons right to choose his own destiny as a plotline for SPN. Since choosing their own destiny is how Sam and Dean defeated Lucifer and stopped the apocalypse (a major and beloved story for the first 5 seasons). I don’t know what other storyline they could have used to save Sam but this one was problematic for many. Hence the visceral reaction whenever it is brought up.
[quote] The possession was a vehicle to get Dean into a head space to take on the MOC, be killed by Metatron and become a demon. [/quote]
Sam getting possessed might have ended up as being nothing more than a vehicle for Dean becoming a demon but it didn’t start out that way.
[quote] [b] At what point in crafting last season did you actually realize you were going to pull the trigger on this storyline?
JC: [/b] Probably — we always have a direction for where we wanted it to go, we have an idea of where that arc is going to end, but we always leave ourselves room for exactly how we’re going to end it. That allows us to act on where certain characters are going and the storylines. I would say after Robbie [Thompson] wrote the Cain episode (“First Born”] — and Robbie knew the far-reaching implications [of the hour], and so did we — that we realized how much mileage we could get out of that. That’s where the idea started to germinate. But we didn’t pull the trigger on it for a while after that; we had a couple of different ways we were going and then we decided on that. [/quote]
http://www.givememyremote.com/remote/2014/07/23/supernatural-jeremy-carver-teases-the-ramifications-of-demon-dean-sams-quest-to-save-his-brother-and-more/
See Alycat even Samgirls get called out on the carpet. If someone disagrees there is going to be a discussion about it. That is what I love about this site no one gets a pass.
Cheryl – I never said that Sam girls don’t get called out, nor do I expect that there wouldn’t be discussion if anyone disagrees. I don’t know where you get that I believe Sam Girls (or anyone) get a pass. Also to clear the air – I think you are misunderstanding me – I don’t feel attacked, I don’t think I even used that word. Sam Girls on this site can be overwhelming at times, I get it, you guys are very passionate and thats fine. If I use words like volley, barrage, salvo – they are just figures of speech – it doesn’t mean my little feelings are hurt or that I can’t take it as a course of conversation any more than it means I’m ready to go to war. Sometimes a word is just a word (you know what I mean). If I call out for Dean Girls it isnt because Im upset – its just humor. I’m not that thin skinned. So post away, I’ll respond in kind – I look forward to many more conversations. If it wasn’t fun guys, I wouldn’t be here. 🙂
Oh I wasn’t worried about hurt feelings. If I thought I hurt your feelings I would have apologized (I have to apologize a lot here). I was pointing out that this discussion wasn’t a Dean vs Sam argument. It seems to be more of a writing issue.
We’re good then! Thanks! Looking forward to the next conversation!!!
Anonymous – site went down on me so couldn’t reply. Here goes: Well Anon, I guess that after all of what you thought were helpful breakdowns of my words that I have chosen to use in my posts, I figured you obviously wouldn’t think that my doing so in return would be demeaning or insulting. Therefore, since you meant no offense, I’m surprised my telling you to google it would not be viewed by you in the same vein. My hunch would be that at that particular moment I probably felt whats good for the goose is good for the gander. I just suggested you look it up, leaving the decision to you. It’s apparently your thing, your style. Good for you. I just personally found it offputting (and that is what motivated me to call to your attention that some people might find it even more than that). You have jumped to the wrong conclusion over my usage of a word or two in the past. Trust me, if I wanted to get the point across that you had interpreted from that post then I would have been clear that that was how I meant it. It was just a figure of speech and if I remember it correctly, the phrase I used in the past I chose as a humerous visual for the other person I was posting to. I think what it comes down to is it being a matter of understanding and getting used to each others style and not being so ready to react negatively or take offense so quickly. Olive branch.
[quote]I figured you obviously wouldn’t think that my doing so in return would be demeaning or insulting.[/quote]Oh!Breaking down my words was not insulting.We were discussing, so responding to me is what you do.But you said that it was insulting to[quote]You don’t need to run to a Thesauras or on line dictionary to educate me. I don’t know if you realize but to some people they might feel that to be insulting or condescending.[/quote]That was you not me who talked anything about insulting.The funny thing is you were the first to ask me to google.Check the chronology.So I thought what was good for the goose would be good for the gander.
Any chance you guys can just give it a rest?
Yes Leah… I agree. This “discussion” has denigrated into petty sniping and is no fun at all. We used to have such really great, in depth, passionate discussions here remember? This is not that. The tone is so incredibly disrespectful in this discussion in particular. I notice how most of the regulars have pretty much bowed out.
Holy Crap! How did that happen! I guess I REALLY felt strongly about my comment, it posted 4 times!
Yes Leah… I agree. This “discussion” has denigrated into petty sniping and is no fun at all. We used to have such really great, in depth, passionate discussions here remember? This is not that. The tone is so incredibly disrespectful in this discussion in particular. I notice how most of the regulars have pretty much bowed out.
Yes Leah… I agree. This “discussion” has denigrated into petty sniping and is no fun at all. We used to have such really great, in depth, passionate discussions here remember? This is not that. The tone is so incredibly disrespectful in this discussion in particular. I notice how most of the regulars have pretty much bowed out.
Yes Leah… I agree. This “discussion” has denigrated into petty sniping and is no fun at all. We used to have such really great, in depth, passionate discussions here remember? This is not that. The tone is so incredibly disrespectful in this discussion in particular. I notice how most of the regulars have pretty much bowed out.
Leah – Yup. That was my final word. Olive branch and all. No worries! 🙂