Let’s Speculate: Supernatural 10.04 “Paper Moon”
Summary: This episode penned by Adam Glass is a classic monster of the week.
We enter the cold opening with “Werewolves in London” playing and a guy getting slashed across the throat by female animal nails.
Sam and Dean are taking a mini sabbatical by a random lake in sunglasses and I was happy because you know, boys in sunglasses! Dean says he needs to work and we end up with boys in Park Ranger uniforms, so I’m good, again.
On the whole, the episode revisits the character, Kate, from Season 8’s “Bitten”. Kate was the werewolf that the boys didn’t chase. The brothers begin the investigation by tracking down information on the alley kill and end up at a barn where they run into Kate. They interrogate her but before finding out anything important, she escapes. They track her to her motel and thinking they are following her, they discover another werewolf, Tasha, who we find out is Kate’s sister.
Kate turned her sister because Tasha was dying. (Anvil falls here.) During the investigation, the boys have a few awkward conversations about what Sam did to find Dean, including getting Lester to a crossroads. They have semi-healing conversations and while that is happening we see that Kate doesn’t want to kill her sister.
The climax of the episode finds us in a cabin and Tasha has “created” a family for herself. She commands them to kill Sam and Dean (and save her a heart in a doggy bag) while she convinces Kate that they can go on like this. The boys fight the new wereboys and Sam kills them both, before Dean can get a knife in. Just at that moment, Kate is stabbing her sister through the heart.
The episode ends with the boys talking about how Dean may not be ready to continue the hunt. Kate contacts them and they tell her to keep going and to keep her nose clean. Dean admits that he wanted to get back in the hunt because he wants to feel he’s doing something right….after having done wrong.
Questions to Ponder:
This was a pretty straight forward MOTW episode but what were your feelings about the parallel between Dean/Sam and Kate/Tasha?
Do you think Dean is ready to hunt again?
What were your thoughts on the conversations between the brothers?
Should they have let Kate go again?
I enjoyed the return of a classic MOTW – what was your reaction?
So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here!
I don’t think the question should be is Dean ready to hunt again. I think it’s is Sam ready to hunt with Dean again? I’m not sure. Sam seemed very apprehensive the whole time. He’s having trouble trusting Dean’s instincts and backing his decisions, like when they left Kate in the car. They’ve been so far from the same page for so long, it does make you wonder how they get back to that point. I liked the dilemmas presented during the episode, even if as you say the premise was quite anvilicious. It’s the first episode that’s challenged me to think in a while, and that’s very good.
[quote]Do you think Dean is ready to hunt again? [/quote]
I think it’s telling that Dean didn’t kill in this episode, something I’m sure was a very deliberate choice on the part of the writers. I think Sam fears what will happen to his brother when the Mark of Cain is fed, hence the reason he offered to shoot Kate when they first cornered her. Of course, not feeding the MoC also has the potential to push Dean back to the dark side – a real damned if you do/damned if you don’t scenario. No wonder Sam’s on edge.
[quote]What were your thoughts on the conversations between the brothers?[/quote]
After last season, I’m just glad they’re talking – and setting the conversations in a car means neither one can walk out mid-sentence. 🙂 The fact they’re admitting their screw-ups and concerns for the other is gravy – and I love gravy! And I’ll happily dodge a few anvils when there’s progress on repairing the brotherly rift. Baby steps, maybe, but I’ll take it.
On a lighter note, I loved Dean ribbing Sam on his ‘elbow’ injury. 😀 And how strange was it to see the brothers in sunglasses? I don’t think that’s happened since the first couple of seasons.
Well just finished it and it was an ok episode. Pretty predictable. I did like the brother moments, such as they were. They were, in their way, actually trying to communicate. I think the lady who plays Kate is a lovely actress, big expressive eyes. I am glad they let her go. She wasn’t killing and deserved a second chance.
Sam was wary of Dean’s fitness to hunt and he should be. Having Dean just sit around cooling his heels might be more grief than it’s worth. He would drive them both crazy.
I do like that we are having a MOTW episode here and there. I’ve said this before but it would be nice to see some different monster types. I know they have done a lot over the years but there must be some more fodder for monsters on the internet or how bout they make some up?:) Slimy swamp things. Evil slug-like monsters. Scary mole creatures. See? Is that so hard?:D Kidding of course but we need something besides vamps, werewolves, ghosts, shapeshifters, they have been to those wells a few too many times.
Where did Sam and Dean get those shades? The mini mart? I would give the episode a C.
[b][quote]What were your feelings about the parallel between Dean/Sam and Kate/Tasha?[/quote][/b]
I don’t know. Didn’t pay that much attention about them. I think it was not that heavily handed like in Thinman where we needed to dodge, evade and jump for cover from them. They were there but more subtle. I actually liked this episode and it was pretty good.
[quote][b]Do you think Dean is ready to hunt again?[/b][/quote]
Not sure either way. I think he needs to hunt that he is not thinking too much about their situation but on the other hand it might have risks that he is not ready for or neither of the boys are.
[b][quote]What were your thoughts on the conversations between the brothers?[/quote][/b]
Liked them a lot. They were spending actually time together and not only by hunting! Big plus from me. I guess I noticed that I had missed a lot that kind of scenes. And even though both had doubts. Dean actually said thank you for Sam for saving his life. I might remember wrong but I think this was the first like ever from either one or at least rare. And Sam has doubts for sure and he is keeping on his toes.
[quote][b]Should they have let Kate go again?[/b][/quote]
She stayed straight so I think that is good. She hasn’t killed but she did a bad choice that could have gone either way. I actually also liked bitten because it was different and it showed us the boys on different angle.
[b][quote]I enjoyed the return of a classic MOTW – what was your reaction?[/quote][/b]
I think it was good and it also connected the whole story because the brother talks and their actions. I could say that because of the spoilers the ending was spoiled for me. If I wouldn’t have seen the images etc. I think I would have liked the episode even more.
– Lilah
Those sunglasses were not a good choice. 😀
At the beginning, Dean said, [i]“But I need to work. I need this.”[/i] “We time” and hanging out with Sam wasn’t enough for Dean. It made me think that the mark might have an effect on him already.
Why does Dean supposedly care so much about the Lester situation? Dean said, [i]“— the guy who you made sell his soul.”[/i] The flashbacks didn’t look like that to me. Dean said he didn’t want to start anything but that’s not how it came across.
[i]Dean: — Last I checked, we kill monsters.
Sam: Right, but how can you possibly blame Kate for fighting for her sister? We do it all the time.
Dean: Oh yeah, and that’s worked wonders for us.
Sam: Well, we’re still here, aren’t we?
Dean: Yeah, but is it right? I mean, all that you’ve done for me, I’ve still got this mark.
Sam: And we’ll figure that out. We always do. —[/i]
It seems that Dean was blaming Sam for going too far to save him. What would Dean have wanted Sam to do instead?
To me Dean’s dead body disappearing from the Bunker means that there are no parallels to past situations, there was no “letting go”. And why would Sam have put any stock in the note? So I like that Sam explained how the situation had been for him and Dean seemed to understand where Sam was coming from.
[i]Dean: It’s embarrassing, you know?
Sam: What’s embarrassing?
Dean: All of it. You know, the – the — that note. Crowley. Everything.
Sam: Dean, you were a demon.
Dean: I was a demon? Oh, thanks. I didn’t — I didn’t realize.
Sam: Shut up.[/i]
Was Dean taking ownership? Dean knows that the mark of Cain was on him?
It’s nice that Dean ended up thanking Sam. I expected him to do that. After all, Dean had turned into a demon.
Ever since Dean took the mark of Cain, I’ve had the feeling that Dean will need to hear that he can still come back from everything that has happened. The cure in episode 10.03 didn’t work that way though. So I find it interesting that when Kate said her sister could be saved, Dean’s words were, [i]“No. Tasha’s in too deep. You don’t ever come back from that. Not ever.”[/i]
And why did Dean call Sam “Sammy” again?
Near the end, Dean said, [i]“But I am just trying to do the right thing, man. ‘Cause I’m so sick and tired of doing the wrong one.”[/i] It’s good that Dean wants to be better now. Maybe he realized that when he took the mark of Cain, it hadn’t really been about trying to save innocents by being self-sacrificing. He had needed something to occupy himself and maybe going after Abaddon had been easier than going after Gadreel.
My question is “Why not send Kate to Garth and his family who are living without killing humans and could offer support to Kate?”
🙂 was thinking the same thing – send her to the Garth halfway house for wayward werewolves.
I realize I am a bit late in the game to comment on this and perhaps it will remain unnoticed but…. I agree and enjoyed this comment….. Garth’s halfway house for wayward werewolves:). Tell me if there is some explanation that I am missing here but how did we get from Madison wolfing out without here awareness and going on an uncontrollable eating/ killing spree during the lunar cycle to werewolves that can turn anytime and kill anytime at will…. or choose not to kill at all and eat chickens? Maybe I have to re-watch the Garth episode but I really found it boring and was saddened that our quirky, funny, Garth, was no longer human.
Never mind. It was the pure blood theory. So I guess that should be Garth’s halfway house for fourth generation pure blood werewolves. I enjoyed Bitten because of the the outside view of Sam and Dean. This story…. Kate’s bland (version and acting) straight forward soliloquy styled struggling werewolf story was boring.
This was an okay MOTW episode; a little heavy on the Kate exposition but okay. The parallels/anvils could work either way. Kate “saving” Tasha by turning her could be a reference to Dean saving Sam at the beginning of S9, or Sam curing Dean of being a demon, though I suspect it will be the latter. Just wondering if Dean does something down the road that leads Sam to regret curing him.
The Impala broments/dialog seemed a little forced and awkward to me; not sure if this was intentional, given everything that’s happened, but I suppose it’s an improvement over the past couple of seasons. I did like that “backseat” Sam was up front with Dean about what he did while looking for him; what Sam did to Lester was pretty dodgy. Though I was a little surprised that Dean was throwing that up in his face, unless the point is that Dean is learning a lesson that there should be limits to how far they go for one another. And I agree with Alice’s comments – not sure Sam entirely trusts Dean as a hunter yet, and is really worried about the MoC and it’s effect/hold over Dean.
You’re not kidding about the Kate exposition. Not exactly riveting television. I kept thinking that they didn’t have the camera on Jensen and Jared, and I wondered if they were even there having to listen to that, however many takes they had her do it. I’d have been checking my watch……
[b][i]This was a pretty straight forward MOTW episode but what were your feelings about the parallel between Dean/Sam and Kate/Tasha?[/b]
[/i]I had to sit through it twice to really get what was going on, but I was pleasantly surprised to see that the writers were not whitewashing Dean’s actions or decisions. Of course, they can’t seem to write without giving us concussions from the anvils, :p/.
[i][b] Do you think Dean is ready to hunt again?[/b][/i]
It’s hard because they’re not the type of guys to sit around and take “we time”, as was obvious by how they were at the beach in long sleeves and they looked like they had picked up those sunglasses in the kid’s section of the 5 and dime. At them same time, it felt like Dean was trying really hard to just be DEAN and Sam was trying really hard to trust him and neither one was quite getting there so…..
[i][b] What were your thoughts on the conversations between the brothers?[/b][/i]
Upon first viewing, I was irritated with Dean that he seemed to be trying to deliberately make Sam feel bad, whereas Sam didn’t remind him that he’d recently chased him through the bunker with a hammer. I would have liked to hear Dean mention some of the things he said and did, but I suppose for now, a “thank you” will have to do. I also liked that Sam got to express some of his feelings about things too. And I loved his “oh you were a Demon, I hadn’t noticed” line. Sam and his sass make my day. And I’m glad that Sam didn’t apologize for what he did. Dean’s last line about just wanting do something right and Sam’s expression were really good. I really want for Dean to be able to get to a place where he can accept himself and Sam, and let go of some of his baggage. Sam saving Dean and being allowed to step into a caretaker roll seems to have given Sam more confidence and I’d like to see Dean in a better place as well.
[i][b] Should they have let Kate go again?[/b][/i]
I think the fact that she killed her own sister was enough reason to let her go. They’re not exactly in a position to throw stones.
It wasn’t a fantastic episode and I guess the fangirl in me would have liked to see more…..I’m not sure what the word is….more emoting, I guess, over what happened? But I was really happy to see Sam getting some POV and also NOT getting pushed out of the action. I whooped out loud that he killed both of those WW with one arm. It seems like maybe the writers are finally getting the message, dare we hope? Cautiously optimistic. Oh, and I forgot to mention the “you okay”, hand on the arm brother moment from Dean. Very nice. The preview looks crazy. The ghost floating on the string was a LOL moment.
This was an OK episode…. not bad for Adam Glass. It moved a bit slow to me, especially in the Kate backstory moments. They could have trimmed that by a good few minutes and have gotten the point across the same. I agree that the conversations between the boys were awkward, but pretty much all of their interaction was, so I am assuming that this was intentional to show that they are still not fighting fit and that there is still ‘stuff’ between them. Sam does seem pretty nervous about, well pretty much everything; about working with Dean, about what Dean did, about what he did about weather enough either one of them is ready to be working again. And I do think it was significant that Sam jumped in and handled both of the kills (one armed no less). I wonder if Dean will kill in the near future and have to suffer the consequences of that (thing Sam detoxing in the panic room). The anvils were pretty heavy, but not terrible or too overbearing making their point without clobbering the audience too badly. The “Tasha’s in too deep” line does make me concerned for Dean and what may happen to him down the road though; that line seemed pretty telling. He seemed to realize it too when he said it. It occurs to me that the brothers have completely switched places from the start of the series. Do you think that Tasha going completely off the rails and Kate begin forced to kill her might be something the brothers are going to have to face later on in the season?
There were a few things that bugged me though. Could Dean be any more of a giant, overbearing HYPOCRITE?!! I mean COME ON!! Bringing up Lester to criticize Sam? You have got to be kidding me! Was what Sam did shady? Yes, absolutely, but was it any worse than forcing possession on someone? That would be a big-assed NO. And while Sam was defending his actions WHY wasn’t the possession brought up as a ‘you have no right to criticize what I am willing to do for you’ argument? Are they totally and completely going to forget forever the entire possession plot and its repercussions? It sure looks like it. So Dean will be able to criticize Sam for what he did to save Dean from demonhood all season long, but everyone, including Dean (AND Sam apparently) will conveniently forget that Dean did something equally horrible while saving Sam? And Dean’s argument about family? Isn’t that exactly the opposite of his argument last year that he used to justify the possession in the first place? So, it was fine for Dean to use family as an excuse to force possession on Sam, and now this year, he’s against it and uses his newfound POV to bash Sam about Lester? Geez. Sometimes this show drives me shit-balls crazy.
Shit-balls crazy about sums it up.:D
Hi E. Yeah pretty much on the same page here. Including the Dean being hypocritical part. For better or worse he is hypocritical. He has always been a “Do as I say not as I do” kinda person. But he seemed to be heavily weighed down with all of it and more concerned than accusing this time. He was grateful to Sam. His admission of wanting to do some right things instead of wrong things was very telling to me and as close as Dean has gotten to admitting he has been wrong about many things. Theses efforts to try and communicate were hopeful for me. 🙂
ETA: “Shit-balls crazy” !! 😀 I may have to borrow that one. 😉
hey – in regards to the sunglasses they were wearing at the start of the episode, any significance to Sam wearing tinted (rose-colored?) glasses?
Were they!?! Hah! I wonder if that is a metaphor, foreshadowing, character delusion or a coincidence?
they appeared to be but that could have just been a reflection or something else causing them to appear that way…
Someone on tumblr just priced those glasses. Dean’s were $190 and Sam’s were $200. And I thought they looked like dime store bargain bin glasses. Goes to show you what I know. 😀 Maybe they stole them?????
With fake credit cards, the sky is the limit 😀
I swear I saw some just like those at the Dollar Tree. 😉 They just seem a little dorky for our guys but what do I know? I pay a dollar for mine.:D
[quote] I wonder if that is a metaphor, foreshadowing, character delusion or a coincidence?[/quote]
I kind of love how something as simple as a choice of sunglass colour can [i]actually[/i] make us think these kinds of things. I don’t take anything for granted when it comes to this show.;)
Shit-balls crazy, indeed.
I’m pleased with this episode. It worked for me. Not spectacular, but good. (Better for me than all of seasons 8 & 9, anyway, so the bar may be low). The brothers have some serious issues, and I’m not sure that the writers can effectively bring them all into the open and resolve them.
But it’s a start. It felt like a relief, somehow, despite my dislike of Kate, and Bitten.
The pacing was SO much better without the jarring jump between storylines.
I can’t pass up this opportunity to say:
[b]Thank You Adam – for writing Dean as the one to be caught, and Sam as the one to get the save! YAHOO! No Samsel in this episode, despite the promo pics. :D[/b]
Now, if you can just keep it even (afterall, they’re both neither perfect nor incompetent), I will be very happy.
This was a good episode. The anvils were not so big as to be a distraction and Kate and her sister (and the actors) were very good characters.
It hurts when Dean throws the Lester thing back at Sam, but I expect nothing more from Dean, he’s always been that way.
I find it interesting that Dean may get the perspective of not being the trusted one as that is what Sam has always felt like. I am liking the switch here in perspectives. I am happy that they didn’t go down the road where Sam “understands” and “forgives” what Dean did to him with Gadreel based upon his perception of Kate’s desperate move to save her sister. He understands desperate actions but also that the Winchesters shouldn’t be the only ones to be allowed to try and fix things.
All-in-all it was a slower pace with much more subtle nuances than we usually see and I enjoyed it.
I did see on Osric’s twitter that he was frowny faced about the mention of Sam’s demon induced arm booboo. Poor guy. But he did say if they named the demon “Osric” it would be OK. Ha!
When Dean and Sam were chatting in the car, and Dean brought up the “Lester” situation to Sam, it felt to me like Dean was looking for someone to commiserate with. He seemed to feel guilty, and he wanted Sam to be just as guilty as he was for something – anything – perhaps to exonerate himself. And later when he said that he was embarrassed, well he seems to clearly remember every moment of being a demon but forgets when Sam was soul-less and did bad things, too. I don’t know really what the differences are between soul-less Sam and Demon Dean. Did Demon Dean still have a soul and it was just a tainted soul? Anyway, that part confused me. But I think we were seeing some very deep remorse, extremely well played by Jensen.
As for the Kate storyline – I think it could have been any storyline. And yeah, I also wish they had called Garth and hooked Kate up instead of just saying “Keep your nose clean.” But they could have used old monsters or new monsters, the point is that it could have been ANYONE that got Dean in the saddle again. He felt like he needed to redeem himself (again with the guilt implication) and make things better in the world. But he and Sam do have some fixing to do, and that might need to be done without hunting monsters. I’d like to see them take a break – go to Vegas or like they tried to do with Hollywood Babylon. Take a real, honest to goodness vacation. They’ve gotta work some stuff out. They were super close, then they weren’t, then one brother died and they got close again, then they weren’t, then Sam almost died and Dean did anything (the Gadreel stuff) to save him, said “You’d do the same for me” and Sam said “No, I wouldn’t” and stormed off to a bedroom and slammed his door. Aaaannnd then Sam did anything (the Lester stuff) to save Dean.
And that was, intentionally, one big, long, run-on sentence. Just like the big, long, run-on storyline between the brothers.
But that being said, I’m kinda glad to see it.
Yes… Dean DID thank Sam, which was a huge surprise. I guess I’ll have to take what I can get. I just find it so strange that Dean will jump on any little thing (or big thing) Sam does, but Sam almost never responds in kind. I suppose I should admire Sam for that, but really, just one time I would just LOVE it if he would just say all the stuff he should have every time Dean started in with his hypocritical criticizing. I won’t hold my breath though.
Yikes this was intended for Leah…. how did it end up here?! Oh well…
After seasons 8 and 9, which weighed more heavily on me than I just realized, it was a relief to me to watch a monster of the week episode. I didn’t mind small anvils, I didn’t mind the sunglasses, I knew the brothers have never been the type to laze around, I never want to live my life keeping score with my brother or between the Winchester brothers, and I was just happy to leave heaven and hell alone.
I keep a little gallery of my favorite episode screen shots saved on my hard drive so that I can enjoy eye candy easily every now and then. Yesterday I started with season 1 and ran right through season 9. I was surprised and fairly distressed to discover that I really enjoyed myself until seasons 8 and 9. Then I got very sad. I mean, I wasn’t even sad through the most unpopular seasons! I am getting teary just thinking about it now. Mysterious.
Anyway, I enjoyed the brothers hunting a MOTW together and getting in a little bit of talking. Poor guys. They still talk like guys. Gotta love ’em. Can’t wait to find out what happens next!
1. Dean is not ready to hunt or kill.
2. At least they’re talking.
3. Yes, they were correct in letting Kate go.
As some have stated above, Sam is terrified of what will happen if Dean kills and I don’t blame him. Both of them have done some bad, lame stuff so blaming each other is ridiculous by now. I also have another tact that no one notices and WFB should acknowledge and think about. Why is it that a few monsters remain basically human in nature and make a conscious choice not to kill? I’m referring to Lenore, Benny, Garth, Amy, Kate, and Cain. I would like an explanation from the writers and wouldn’t Sam and Dean wonder about this. Kate wouldn’t kill but her sister was a monster from the beginning. Why? Anyway, will Dean be a monster like Cain but make a human decision not to kill, but still have the potential to be a demon?
It’s probably a reasonably simplistic explanation, but I would think it might have something to do with what kind of person or human they were before they became monsters. Who they were, why they were, what their characters are or how strong their sense of morality and responsibility is. What people and life experiences they were influenced by, whether they have someone or something to fight for. I think these kinds of qualities could be found in any of these characters you mentioned. Tasha, on the other hand, claimed she had felt weak her whole life, pushed around by her parents, her friends, even Kate herself, and being a werewolf made her strong, like she was at the top of the food chain for once, which probably made it easier for her to succumb to the monster part of herself.
I guess it could be kind of like how people react in real life to bad things happening. Some start behaving badly, rebelling, pushing others away, become reckless, while others might seem to simply take it all in stride, like they were never affected at all.
Didn’t anyone catch the look on Sam’s face when Dean said he was just trying to do good because he was fed up doing wrong? They are talking but they are no where near finished yet because that look suggests that Sam feels responsible for how Dean feels, that he knows it isn’t just the mark and being a demon that Dean is talking about. That the rift between them in the last two seasons plays into why Dean feels he can’t do right.
Sure Dean brought up Lester, but the way Sam defended himself in the same way he always does and Dean let it slide, but it played into the old pattern of Sam’s explanation for his actions makes Dean feel partly responsible for Sam’s choices. Dean tried that tact last season and Sam, who was right to be hurt threw the whole purge thing in Dean’s face and they never properly moved on from that, it was the reason that DemonDean could shout that Sam never manned up and it got to Sam.
As much as they are getting better, they aren’t there yet. The reversal isn’t just Dean finding out how Sam feels not to be fully trust but Sam is finding out how it feels to feel partly responsible for his brother’s state, that he didn’t look out for his brother enough when his brother needed to be looked after even if it hurt and Dean didn’t want to be looked after.
I don’t see how anyone could blame Sam for Dean’s his current state, or for becoming a demon. It’s all happening because Dean took on the Mark of Cain, instead of staying with Sam and hashing out the possession fiasco. How can Sam even be partially responsible for Dean leaving him because he felt like “poison”? I honestly don’t understand.
Because Dean isn’t simply talking about taking the mark and being a demon as his doing wrong. He’s talking about all his actions in season 8 and season 9 as well as the mark and being a demon. Now Sam may not be responsible for Dean’s choices but his pushing Dean away before and after the mark (I’m talking about even in the first part of season 8) plays into Dean feeling the way he feels. It is like Dean isn’t responsible for Sam’s choices in every other season either but they work off each other.
They are both responsible for their relationship and so feel responsible for how the other one feels but usually we see Dean feeling if he had done a better job protecting or looking out for his little brother would Sam have made certain choices differently. But that didn’t mean that he didn’t feel bad when his brother feels low, that he feels he should make it right, to think if he did things differently would Sam feel better, usually that leads to him overcompensating to over protect. Well this season it is Sam’s turn to feel as Dean usually does. This isn’t Sam feeling if he had done things differently then Dean would think better of him, that he wouldn’t have let Dean down or even a Sam only wondering if he can trust his brother enough to hunt with him. This is Sam’s turn to be put more into Dean’s shoes and feel if he had done things differently and looked out for Dean more his brother would not feel like he is a piece of crap who is atoning for everything he previously touched going bad. You’ve got a Sam who is wondering if hadn’t pushed Dean away so much over the past two season’s while he was holding onto his personal pain then would Dean have been in such a low place to take the mark in the first place even though Sam had every right to be pissed at Dean for what happened with Gadreel.
So all during S8 Dean threw every single time Sam let him down in Sam’s face. Of course that was the whole point so that in the end Sam would feel so guilty that he would “Sacrifice” his life in order to atone for every time “he let Dean down”. It was Dean who left Sam to go meet up with Benny and who kept Benny a secret for no particular reason from Sam. Other than when Dean tricked Sam into going to Amelia, Sam, by his own choice stayed with Dean. At the beginning of S9 Sam was left completely clueless of what Dean had done to him. Dean lied (understandably so) to Sam for months culminating in the angel possessing Sam to kill Kevin (an innocent) and take off in Sam’s body to continue killing. After having Crowley torture Sam’s body for presumably hours by “sticking needles in his brothers brain” Crowley comes to Sam’s rescue and helps cast out the angel after which Dean abandons Sam (weak, traumatized and horribly injured from the trials and the torture) on a bridge. After they get back together Dean pronounces to Sam that he would do it all again even knowing how it would all turn out. This of course makes Sam justifiably angry, he says harsh words, but never at any time did Sam leave his brothers side. He was the only one who could talk Dean down from using the blade. When the MOC started to take control Sam tried to keep the blade away from Dean, he tried to lock Dean up in the dungeon, he tried to go with Dean when he took on Abaddon and Metatron. Sam didn’t have any more idea than Dean did about what the MOC meant and Cas wasn’t much help either. So I don’t know what else Sam could have done to help Dean out other than what he did. I’m not saying these guys don’t have issues that they need to work on but Dean brought this on all by himself. These were his decisions not Sam’s. And it was drove the story all season. And how he ended up a dam demon.
And Sam as a human being gets that Dean feels like Crap about it but also like a human being gets he isn’t so innocent about things or understanding about how Dean felt that and if had been a little easier on his brother then Dean might not have gotten so low and not he took on the mark. This time Sam has gotten all the stuff off his chest about feeling inferior and how Dean was selfish and is now just thinking that his brother now has the mark and feels everything he touches turns to crap. He maybe feeling that maybe that if he hadn’t held onto his anger that Dean may not have gotten so low to take the mark in the first place. The relationship between the brothers had been faltering since before season 9 so is Dean’s belief that his brother would abandon him, that all he is is poison to Sam and all about him and Sam not exactly always helping in making Dean get that isn’t the case.
Just Sam didn’t have Bobby to tell him that family doesn’t make you happy all the time and to suck up your issues to deal with the big ones, like Dean did when Sam was chugging blood and playing around with Ruby. That look on Sam’s face when Dean tells him that he wants to do right instead of always doing wrong is Sam’s equivalent of Dean handing Sam the keys in Fallen Idols after Sam saying that he went with Ruby because Dean made him feel like a little kid. That the issues the brothers have are a bit deeper than what they have just been through and the actions of the brother that hasn’t had the major events happen to may play a part in it in how things got so bad.
But hey I want POV Sam, I want an emotional arc for Sam, I want something more than Sam curing Dean and that is his story and I think that his trying to look after Dean to make up for his part in the rift, because having a right to be pissed doesn’t mean that holding onto the pain and not doing what you need to do to make sure you improve a relationship is the right thing to do.
Well as I said both of these guys have issues they need to work through but the whole point of S8 was Sam trying to atone for his perceived sins against Dean and Dean telling him there were no sins to atone for. And it seems by the conversation in this episode that Sam would go to any lengths to save his brother and never needs a thank you from the one he loves above all else. This is hopefully the beginning of the healing that we have all been waiting for. The rift between them seems so small compared to what they have gone through and now they are both waiting for the other shoe (MOC) to drop. I guess we will have to stay tuned.
[quote] And Sam as a human being gets that Dean feels like Crap about it but also like a human being gets he isn’t so innocent about things or understanding about how Dean felt that and if had been a little easier on his brother then Dean might not have gotten so low and not he took on the mark.
He maybe feeling that maybe that if he hadn’t held onto his anger that Dean may not have gotten so low to take the mark in the first place.[/quote]
I really don’t think that the situation can be characterized as such. This is the only conversation the brothers have after Sam learned that he had been possessed and before Dean took off:
[b]9.10 Road Trip[/b]
[i]Dean: All right. Let me hear it.
Sam: What do you want me to say — that I’m pissed? Okay. I am. I’m pissed. You lied to me. Again.
Dean: I didn’t have a choice.
Sam: I was ready to die, Dean!
Dean: I know. But I wouldn’t let you, because that’s not in me.
Sam: So, what? You decide to trick me into being possessed by some… psycho angel?
Dean: He saved your life.
Sam: So what? I was willing to die. And now… Kevin…
Dean: No. That is not on you. Kevin’s blood is on my hands, and that ain’t ever getting clean. I’ll burn for that. I will. But I’ll find Gadreel. And I will end that son of a bitch. But I’ll do it alone.
Sam: What’s that supposed to mean?
Dean: Come on, man. Can’t you see? I’m… I’m poison, Sam. People get close to me, they get killed…or worse. You know, I tell myself that I-I — I help more people than I hurt. And I tell myself that I’m — I’m doing it all for the right reasons, and I — I believe that. But I can’t — I won’t… Drag anybody through the muck with me. Not anymore.
Sam: Go. I’m not gonna stop you. But don’t go thinking that’s the problem, ’cause it’s not.
Dean [pausing but not turning back around] What’s that supposed to mean?
Sam: Just go.[/i]
Dean had already made up his mind. He expected Sam to be angry. He didn’t leave because of that. Sam told Dean that Dean being poison was not the problem.
Dean got the mark of Cain in [b]9.11 First Born[/b]. In [b]9.12 Sharp Teeth[/b], Dean still wanted to send Sam off so he could work the case alone.
[i]Cain: I can give you the mark, Dean, if it’s what you truly want.
Dean: What are you talking about?
Cain: The mark can be transferred to someone who’s worthy.
Dean: You mean a killer like you?
Cain: Yes.
Dean: Can I use it to kill that bitch?
Cain: Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.
Dean: Yeah, well, spare me the warning label. You had me at “kill the bitch”.
Cain: Good luck, Dean. You’re gonna to need it.
Dean: Yeah, I get that a lot. Let’s dance.[/i]
Dean made the decision to take the mark of Cain. He didn’t want to know what the price would be. None of it was on Sam.
[b]10.04 Paper Moon[/b]
[i]Dean: Let’s say you’re right.
Sam: About what?
Dean: Everything. Maybe I’m not ready to hunt. But I am just trying to do the right thing, man. ‘Cause I’m so sick and tired of doing the wrong one.[/i]
It’s understandable that Sam would feel regret over how thing went down but I think it’s good that Dean isn’t making the mark of Cain out to be partly Sam’s failure.
There were just too many misses in this episode for me. It should have been called “Recycled Paper Moon”. Not only did we get yet another werewolf story but a werewolf we had seen before. How many times do we actually need to see a flashback to Lester? We just saw it in last week’s episode. Was it really necessary to see Kate’s story in a flashback? Twenty-five words or less would have done it for me. I wondered why Kate was in the front seat but then we had the recycled Krissy handcuffed to the steering wheel trick. Last but not least we had the similar parallel between Kate/Tasha and Sam and Dean that we saw with the Ghostfacers.
TPTB keep telling us there are so many options for new stories to tell, so why not tell us one?
I didn’t mind the episode. Adam Glass only ever gets MOTW episodes, and you can tell he’s trying for more, but with Adam’s episode’s I always feel for every step he takes forward, he takes two back.
I enjoy the fact the brothers are talking, and not arguing, even if they aren’t completely copacetic – however most of their conversations felt contrived. There’s a nuance to how Sam & Dean communicate in these situations, and I don’t feel the writers in recent years have been able to land it. At least not consistently. Adam’s getting there, but still misses as often as he hits. I get they have to talk, but sometimes it’s ok for them to simply shoot the shit & catch up. There’s no need to constantly feign tension or some half-hearted deep & meaningful.
Most of my complaints about this episode (and the show in general) tend to fall on the production side of things.
What happened to the “scare” factor? The MOTW episodes play like episodes of Pretty Little Liars, and have done so for a couple of years. There’s too much emphasis on each episode getting those three or four unnecessary “brother moments”, as apposed to putting that time and effort into creating atmosphere and narrative for the monster/episode at hand.
Then there’s the aesthetics. Whilst it appears the show has had the same Director of Photography since the beginning (sans the pilot), it’s apparent he’s not really making the choices on how the show should look. Lights that make leaves the greenest green, and blood the reddest red – even though it’s suppose to be pitch dark with only moonlight. That shit looks terrible. Everything from the locations to the camera framing and movement look so generic. The whole show now looks so unnatural, and not in any way that could be referred to as good.
More often than not I find myself laughing at how terribly noticeable Jensen’s make-up is. Especially his lips. Look at the diner scene of this episode as they’re talking to Kate. Looks like he’s wearing light pink lipstick.
I’ll end my ranting there. I don’t post on this site much (you all move way to fast for my sporadic internet comings & goings), but the few times I do I tend to air my disappointment more than anything else. So I apologies for adding what some may see as negativity to the cause. I’m just a guy that spent years mesmerised by a TV show (which had never happened before), only to watch what was once great dissolve into what feels like at times a generic parody of its former self.
This was a pretty straight forward MOTW episode but what were your feelings about the parallel between Dean/Sam and Kate/Tasha?
I thought it a thought provoking episode for the boys. I liked the fact how this story had similarities to their own. I didn’t feel as though I was being hit with an anvil. The similarities between the situations weren’t meant for me anyway….they were meant for sam and dean. Because sam and dean have a hard time dealing with their issues, sometimes I find it’s necessary for them to see things from another perspective, so they can get a better perspective of their own. It gives them the chance to see things more clearly and it allows them to handle the situation differently as well. They learn…..and either they follow in a similar regard or they realize that it’s not the way they want to end up so they know to do things differently. I thought the monster story was a good one, it was interesting and I felt for the character. I also thought it was a nice tie in to the boys situation. it’s not the same, but there are enough similarities to allow the boys to reflect on their own situation.
Do you think Dean is ready to hunt again?
I think sam is right to be concerned about dean. they haven’t taken that much time off. dean doesn’t have the patience to do that. dean in essence is still recuperating. Cas warned sam of the moc once again. this has not left sam’s mind. so does dean want to hunt because he needs to kill? this is a valid question that sam most likely is asking himself. is it too soon, is dean too fresh off the demon stint? sam can’t know for sure at the moment, not until they start working again. sam also knows what it feels like to want/need to get back on the job, to work, to get one’s minds off things and to try to return to their normal routine, one that has been lacking for so long. Sam agrees to the hunt, but still he can’t be too carefree with dean right now. both sam and dean need time…they both need to figure out if dean can do the job because of the job and not because he gets to possibly kill something or someone. it’s important to realize that this isn’t an issue of sam not trusting dean. it’s’ an issue of sam not trusting in dean with the moc…;)
What were your thoughts on the conversations between the brothers?
loved them. i knew it was coming. I’ve been saying it for months..the road to healing….and i’m going to enjoy every minute of it:D i think i have to disagree with you sansummer on this point. i don’t think dean was placing blame on sam in regards to lester. i know it seemed redundant having the lester flashback again, we’d just had it…but i do believe Glass was making a point in regards to dean.
demon dean made sure, in his attempt to break sam, to point out what sam did regarding lester. dd knew sam would be feeling guilty about it, that’s why he played that card in his efforts to break sam. dean didn’t forget anything dd did or said, especially to sam. so when dean brings up lester, it’s not that he’s pointing blame, the way i understood it, it was dean recognizing how sam was feeling in regards to what he did. he knew sam was feeling bad and he was concerned that sam going back to the hunt too soon was in fact sam trying to make right what dd helped further convince what sam did wrong. dean made it clear in conversation that he, in fact felt the opposite. this conversation was an honest one between the boys based on concern and i felt no malice or pointing fingers. this episode felt so reminiscent of the early seasons, when the story focused on the brothers more than mythology. i loved it. it was great to have only sam and dean in this eppy..just the brothers…i hope to have more eps like this.
Should they have let Kate go again?
yes.
I enjoyed the return of a classic MOTW – what was your reaction
it’s about time. i understand the tie in with kate…but i agree with leah…time for some new creepy ass monsters. still enjoying the aspect of the brothers fighting and conquering their own monsters as well. 😉
Hi, nappi815. Dean wanted Sam to acknowledge that if Dean needed some time off then so did Sam. I think Dean came on strong when he brought the issue of Lester up.
[i] Dean: So what’s this about me not being ready back there?
Sam: I’m — I wasn’t… trying to start something, Dean. I was just saying, I thought that was the whole point of us taking a break. You know?
Dean: Oh, no, no, yeah. I get that. And, you know, there’s no worries there.
Sam: Okay.
Dean: I mean, I gotta ask. What about you?
Sam: What about me, what?
Dean: Are you ready?
Sam: Why wouldn’t I be ready?
Dean: Lester.
Sam: Lester?
(flashbacks)
Sam: You’re serious? This is about Lester?
Dean: Um, don’t get me wrong. I’m not — I’m not — I’m not trying to start anything either, okay? I’m just saying, maybe… we oughta talk about that.
Sam: Okay, expect there’s nothing to talk about.
Dean: Okay.
Sam: Okay.
Dean: I just figured, since we’re opening up veins that maybe you’d want to talk about the guy who you made sell his soul.
Sam: The guy who you then killed, right? I mean, that’s the same guy we’re talking about?
Dean: I was a demon.
Sam: Oh, you were a demon? Oh, I didn’t realize that.
Dean: Hey, man, Lester was gonna pay for that soul shake sooner or later. So technically, it’s still on you.
Sam: What do you want from me, Dean? Look, I w– I’m not happy about it, okay? But I needed to find you. So if I had to… bend a few rules…
Dean: Go dark.
Sam: Go dark. Sure. Label it if you want.
Dean: Look, man, again, I’m not complaining, okay? In fact, I’m doing just the opposite of complaining. I — I just… You know, between Lester and the others…
Sam: There weren’t others.
Dean: Okay, either way. Maybe we both needed that time off. — — This is good. This is good.
Sam: Yeah. Okay. [/i]
The situation evolved from that later on in the episode but I still find it weird that Dean was so adamant when he said Sam [i] made [/i] Lester sell his soul so Lester’s death was on Sam.
I too agree that dean needed for sam to acknowledge that he needed time too. yes, subtlety and tact has never been dean’s strong suit:D. I just didn’t think there was any malice there. I didn’t feel like dean was all, look who’s calling the kettle black. for me it felt like dean was pointing out that sam has crap he needs to deal with as much as he does. as I mentioned, dd knew all the right buttons to break sam, and trying to make sam believe him to be a monster was one of them. dd knows sam just as much as dean does, so dean knows the guilt sam would be carrying. it’s also why dd brought up sam’s mother. dean knows it’s not sam’s fault mary died, but sam still always blamed himself for that. again, dd, using all the ammo he had on sam to break him. i found it extremely significant that dean made it a point to tell sam that he wasn’t complaining about what he did…are you kidding, it’s dean’s wish come true here, he may be all serious on the outside, but on the inside he’s doing the happy dance in boxers with a beer in one hand and a chick on the other side:D…to finally witness himself the extremes sam would go to just for him…he’s been wanting this forever:D. still, dean knows that it was something morally questionable and he knows his brother well enough to realize sam isn’t going to just be able to move on so easily from it. I still believe that as much as dean can be a Hypocrite at times, with a capital H, I don’t think him one in this case. I really think he brought it up more as a….look I know I did crap that I have to live and deal with when I was a demon, but you did too. I just think dean was pointing out that they both need time to heal….I don’t think it was about blame, I think it’s about dean recognizing that he and sam have both made mistakes. no one here is mightier than the other. I think for the first time, he’s truly seeing himself and sam as equals. this is good, this is good. it seemed to me that dean, for a moment was comfortable and content in the knowledge that both he and sam shared a common dilemma in regards to themselves. as though for the first time he’s recognizing the flaws in ea. other and accepting them instead of condemning them. i think that’s a positive step in the road to healing, so i actually was ok with this conversation, even though dean seemingly came on strong. but hey, that’s just me;)
[quote]demon dean made sure, in his attempt to break sam, to point out what sam did regarding lester. dd knew sam would be feeling guilty about it, that’s why he played that card in his efforts to break sam. dean didn’t forget anything dd did or said, especially to sam. so when dean brings up lester, it’s not that he’s pointing blame, the way i understood it, it was dean recognizing how sam was feeling in regards to what he did. he knew sam was feeling bad and he was concerned that sam going back to the hunt too soon was in fact sam trying to make right what dd helped further convince what sam did wrong. dean made it clear in conversation that he, in fact felt the opposite. this conversation was an honest one between the boys based on concern and i felt no malice or pointing fingers.[/quote]
Sorry nappi, I didn’t hear concern at all nor did I see an attempt to commiserate or understand what Sam was feeling or any attempt to help Sam with his feelings of guilt, I saw and heard censure; he went right for the throat in that conversation because he was feeling guilty himself and saw an opportunity in Sam to deflect those feelings. And lets face it, Dean’s done that before, criticize when he has no right to do so to get the heat off of himself. Dean’s comments were in direct response to the conversation he and Sam had had earlier about weather or not he was ready to hunt. But instead of discussing that subject, and delving into why he might not be ready to hunt or go into any pertinent details from his time as a demon, he instead turned it back around on Sam to make it about him and therefore get out from under the scrutiny. The fact is, in a conversation about weather Dean is ready to hunt, a perfectly logical conversation BTW given what he’s just been through, there was simply no reason for Dean to bring up Lester at all. The only reason he did it was because, after all this time, Dean STILL can’t man up to his crap and would rather make Sam feel some guilt so that he doesn’t have to feel so bad about what he’s done. Sam was totally surprised to suddenly be discussing Lester and so was the audience because Lester was so far from the crux of their current discussion. Lester had nothing to do with that conversation whatsoever so Dean’s motivations in brining him up are completely suspect IMO. I also find it telling that Dean made out what Sam did seem worse than it actually was…
[quote]Dean: I just figured, since we’re opening up veins that maybe you’d want to talk about the guy who you [b]made[/b] sell his soul.
Sam: The guy who you then killed, right? I mean, that’s the same guy we’re talking about?
Dean: I was a demon.[/quote]
Sam did not MAKE Lester sell his soul; he used Lester as bait (and that isn’t a good thing) but Lester sold his own soul because he was a moron and a douche. Sam did not MAKE him do anything, the selling the soul part is on Lester. Sam was a fool to use Lester as bait, but the soul in hell for all eternity thing is on Lester. And because of DD not following the rules Lester didn’t even get his 10 years. I also find it telling (and unflattering to boot) that in the same conversation that Dean turned on Sam about Lester that he completely negated his own culpability. “I was a demon.” Oh…so that gives Dean an excuse not to own up to anything he did while he was a demon, I see. I guess later in the season he’ll be saying “I have the mark” which will mitigate anything he might do that’s sketchy. And that will leave him free to criticize Sam’s every move in his attempts to help save Dean from the mark as well, how convenient. In Season 6 Sam never once used “I was soulless” as an excuse for the things he did while soulless. He tried desperately to atone for his sins; he owned up to everything and would not allow anyone to use the “It wasn’t you” excuse. With all the crap that these boys have to work out in themselves and between them, more than anything else this season I’d like to see Dean begin to own up to the things he’s done like a man; take it on, admit to it, feel bad about it, atone and apologize all without denial or deflection. And this “don’t say sorry we’re family” crap? Ugh… you need to be able to say “sorry” to family first and most readily as family deserves it the MOST. I wish that Sam had NEVER said that…
Gee e, tell me how u really feel…three times huh:D
Normally e I would agree with you on this. I definitely agree that Lester is dead because of Lester. I can even say that I agree that dean needed to lessen his crimes by reminding Sam of his. But I cannot dismiss deans very specific comment to Sam regarding him not complaining and that the opposite is true. That statement and the ones that followed signified two things to me. First that dean was grateful, no downright ecstatic ,that sam did what he did…in Winchester world, there’s nothing like a trip to the dark side to show how much they care. Secondly, I felt dean realized that what he was saying wasn’t coming out the way he meant it to mean. His very backpedaling and making sure that Sam understood that dean was in fact not complaining leads me to believe dean became aware of how he sounded…it’s happened before in Everybody loves a clown. The way dean ended the conversation leads me to believe also that dean understands they both need time to deal with what they’ve done. His declaration that this is good has me further believing that them being honest and facing it together is a step in the right direction. I watched twice now and my opinion still stands. I guess we see things differently here…ain’t the first time and sure as hell won’t be the last:p:p;)
Hi nappi. I tend to agree with you on this. The tone was different. He didn’t seem to be going for the throat this time, I agree he did some backpedaling. I do have to agree with E though as to why did it even need to be mentioned? It is definitely like Dean to be hypocritical sometimes. I just don’t think there was any serious rancor behind his words this time. He seemed grateful and thankful that Sam did what he did, in the final analysis, so I am good with that for now. Hopefully more, less awkward talks, to come.:)
Heeee! Yeah, sorry the site (or possibly my internet connection) was acting weird…my response didn’t appear to be posting so I kept posting it. Hah. Sorry. ;). I guess the Lester convo being brought up out of the blue like that along with Carver’s interview in which he stated Sam would get “called on the carpet” for the things he did to save Dean makes me believe that this is more of a criticism from Dean than anything. It’s something Dean does a lot I am afraid, so it doesn’t surprise me that he’s doing it again here.
It also bugs me that the Winchester double standard is once again in play. When Dean does something shady and desperate to Sam to save him both fans and the show are falling all over themselves to defend his actions and tout him as the desperate hero who loves his brother more than anything and so is willing to do anything to save him. Now we have Sam doing something equally shady to save Dean (not to him, but still to save him) and are fans or the show falling all over themselves to defend him and seeing the tragic hero who had no choice like with Dean? No, Sam is getting criticized by fans and the show itself through Dean and through Carver. Sam’s actions are considered shady, suspect and underhanded and decidedly not heroic. THis after Dean practically demanded that Sam be willing to do anything and everything to save him and was unaccountably hurt when Sam said he wouldn’t to the point that he brooded on it for the whole remainder of the season. Now, Sam HAS done anything and everything to save his brother and Dean STILL isn’t’ happy or appreciative. He’s critical, “Lester’s death is on you” and so is the show otherwise they would never have any Dean bring it up in the first place or told fans that Sam’s going to get “called on the carpet” for the things he’s done or possibly be set up to be a worse monster than Demon Dean. No matter what Sam does he Just. Can. Not. Win.
I think Dean is appreciative. He is also embarrassed and feeling he has done much that is wrong. I don’t think happy is in the cards right now. It is totally in character for Dean to deflect and turn the conversation back to Sam but he did SEEM to back off and express this thanks and appreciation. He did not rake Sam over the coals. IDK E, I just wish of all the other things in those conversations the laser focus has to be on that comment ignoring some of the good and hopeful notes that were also expressed. I don’t get why the show would show Sam give his all to save his brother (yes some shady stuff but NOT evil) and then try and tear Sam down. I didn’t see that at all. Dean looked like a jerk for bringing it up. Not Sam! If fans are bitching about Sam then they are the same ones who NEVER want to see the good in him. Just like the ones who won’t ever see anything Dean does as anything less than selfish or manipulative or just general dickishness (yeah I made that up). I don’t think the show is forcing or encouraging anyone to dislike Sam or Dean the fans decide that all by themselves. It is so frustrating sometimes. But hey it is what it is. I sometimes wish I never discovered the online fandom and other times enjoy the hell out of us. I’ve loved both boys from the beginning and have never wavered in that no matter what the characters do or have done. I always see the little boys they were and what they have been through and wonder how the hell they continue to function. So damaged and imperfect yet so good at their core. I personally love the Sam story this season and have nothing but love for him and what he has done to save his brother. I also love Dean TRYING to work this situation through with his brother, not always saying or doing the right thing but not withdrawing, getting surly, or storming off. I can’t speak for all the other fans out there but I know I am not the only one who sees it that way. There are Dean and brother fans who love Sam too.:)
Sorry Leah… but to me (and me only) when Dean says things like “Lesters death is on you” or “you MADE Lester sell his soul” or from the show runner himself… “Sam will get called onto the carpet.” and “Who is the bigger monster”…. these are not ringing endorsements for Sam’s character. And I am not making this stuff up or interpreting either, these are direct quotes. How am I supposed to see support for Sam in any of that? Dean wasn’t called on the carpet for the possession (other than by Sam who’s’ POV was not backed up AT ALL by anyone, neither other characters or TPTB); Dean’s POV was seen to be the right one and Sam was in the wrong and now begin held responsible for Dean’s state. And now that the reverse is in play who’s calling Sam heroic? No one and TPTB are calling him “the true monster.” The show clearly backs Dean in treatment and POV so it’s no wonder none of the fans get Sam’s actions and so dismiss everything he does. Now we have Dean chaining his mind again (Sam went too far to save him and he’s chaining his POV on what family should do for one another as per the convo at the trunk of the impala) Sam will be seen to be wrong again even though he’s currently doing everything that Dean did and was celebrated for last year. It’s maddening. Shit-balls crazy is right.
That didn’t take long E! I wasn’t saying you or the people who are on the same page as you are making stuff up. I think there are some legitimate beefs with the show and how Sam is portrayed. Those quotes by Carver rankled me too. I still firmly believe Carver was trying to stir up controversy. I don’t think Sam was shown to be monstrous in any way. I guess comments like “none of the fans get Sam’s actions and dismiss everything he does” bother me. I am a fan too. I don’t dismiss his actions or think he is monstrous. I see the same show, hear the same quotes. I don’t extrapolate from that that Sam is always wrong or is a monster. And those that buy into that frustrate me (edit: I mean the fans who choose to see Sam that way). Sorry. Cas seemed to be firmly in Sam’s camp. Doesn’t count? That’s ok E, I do understand your view even if I have some different perspectives. 😉
E, I see your point I do but please, can you try not to generalize about fans. Trying to say this politely because I think I am seeing Sam like you. That he has done good. But you know when you say “All the fans” it actually means you too. I mean if you see yourself as a fan. So are they thinking like this or only you? I mean to point out that you are more seeing it as Sam’s fault than the people which you are trying to say what they are thinking/saying. I watched the episode and I made my own mind how to see it like I always do. I don’t care what the quotes are or what Carver said. I don’t actually let people influence how I see the show. So in my point of view Sam saved Dean and they are both messed up at the moment. [b]So Sam was the hero in my eyes.[/b]
From Leah: [quote]I guess comments like “none of the fans get Sam’s actions and dismiss everything he does” bother me. I am a fan too.[/quote]
I can count many that think like I do. I know there are those that say and think the things you say about Sam. But it is their choice and view too. You are defending Sam but you are also doing the same to Dean that you say “fans” are doing to Sam. Both brothers are not saints you know.
Anyway, don’t want this to derail to wrong things but just wanting to say that I hope you see when people do care and not think ill of Sam. I am actually more even Dean leaning but still not see Sam in negative light.
I just hope you would give us some credit that we don’t need to defend Sam/our point of view of Sam because we shouldn’t have to? 🙂
– Lilah
[quote]demon dean made sure, in his attempt to break sam, to point out what sam did regarding lester. dd knew sam would be feeling guilty about it, that’s why he played that card in his efforts to break sam. dean didn’t forget anything dd did or said, especially to sam. so when dean brings up lester, it’s not that he’s pointing blame, the way i understood it, it was dean recognizing how sam was feeling in regards to what he did. he knew sam was feeling bad and he was concerned that sam going back to the hunt too soon was in fact sam trying to make right what dd helped further convince what sam did wrong. dean made it clear in conversation that he, in fact felt the opposite. this conversation was an honest one between the boys based on concern and i felt no malice or pointing fingers.[/quote]
Sorry nappi, I didn’t hear concern at all nor did I see an attempt to commiserate or understand what Sam was feeling or any attempt to help Sam with his feelings of guilt. I saw and heard censure. Dean went right for the throat in that conversation because he was feeling guilty himself and saw an opportunity in Sam to deflect those feelings. And lets face it, Dean’s done that before, criticize when he has no right to do so to get the heat off of himself. Dean’s comments were in direct response to the conversation he and Sam had had earlier in the episode about weather or not he was ready to hunt. But instead of discussing that subject, and delving into why he might not be ready to hunt or go into any pertinent details from his time as a demon, Dean instead turned it back around onto Sam to make it about him and therefore get out from under the scrutiny and pressure he was feeling. The fact is, in a conversation about weather Dean is ready to hunt, a perfectly logical conversation BTW given what he’s just been through, there was simply no reason for Dean to bring up Lester at all. The only reason he did it was because, after all this time, Dean STILL can’t man up to his crap and would rather make Sam feel some guilt so that he doesn’t have to feel so bad about what he’s done. Sam was totally surprised to suddenly be discussing Lester and so was the audience because Lester was so far from the crux of their current discussion. Lester had nothing to do with that conversation whatsoever so Dean’s motivations in brining him up are completely suspect IMO. He was deflecting and not commiserating at all IMO.
I also find it telling that Dean made out what Sam did seem worse than it actually was…
[quote]Dean: I just figured, since we’re opening up veins that maybe you’d want to talk about the guy who you [b]made[/b] sell his soul.
Sam: The guy who you then killed, right? I mean, that’s the same guy we’re talking about?
Dean: I was a demon.[/quote]
Sam did not MAKE Lester sell his soul; he used Lester as bait (and that isn’t a good thing, but he’s done it before and so has Dean) but Lester sold his own soul because he was a moron and a douche. Sam did not MAKE him do anything, the selling the soul part is on Lester. Sam was a fool to use Lester as bait, but the soul in hell for all eternity thing is on Lester. And because of DD not following the rules Lester didn’t even get his 10 years. I also find it telling (and unflattering to boot) that in the same conversation that Dean turned on Sam about Lester that he completely negated his own culpability but saying “I was a demon.” Oh…so that gives Dean an excuse not to own up to anything he did while he was a demon, I see… Dean gets a pass cause he was a demon. I guess later in the season he’ll be saying “I have the mark” which will mitigate anything he might do that’s sketchy. And that will leave him free to criticize Sam’s every move in his attempts to help save Dean from the mark as well, how convenient. In Season 6 Sam never once used “I was soulless” as an excuse for the things he did while soulless. He tried desperately to atone for his sins; he owned up to everything and would not allow anyone to use the “It wasn’t you” excuse. I, for one, would like to see Dean do the same, but I am sure not seeing that here.
With all the crap that these boys have to work out in themselves and between them, more than anything else this season I’d like to see Dean begin to own up to the things he’s done like a man; take it on, admit to it, feel bad about it, atone and apologize all without denial or deflection. Little kids deflect their guilt onto other people and try and make others feel bad so that they don’t have to feel to bad. This is an unflattering and childish trait and it’s time that it go away forever. And this “don’t say sorry, we’re family” crap? Ugh… you need to be able to say “sorry” to family first and most readily as family deserves your best consideration of their feelings the MOST. I wish that Sam had NEVER said that…
[quote]demon dean made sure, in his attempt to break sam, to point out what sam did regarding lester. dd knew sam would be feeling guilty about it, that’s why he played that card in his efforts to break sam. dean didn’t forget anything dd did or said, especially to sam. so when dean brings up lester, it’s not that he’s pointing blame, the way i understood it, it was dean recognizing how sam was feeling in regards to what he did. he knew sam was feeling bad and he was concerned that sam going back to the hunt too soon was in fact sam trying to make right what dd helped further convince what sam did wrong. dean made it clear in conversation that he, in fact felt the opposite. this conversation was an honest one between the boys based on concern and i felt no malice or pointing fingers.[/quote]
Sorry nappi, but I just can’t agree with this assessment. I didn’t hear concern at all nor did I see an attempt to commiserate or understand what Sam was feeling or any attempt to help Sam with his feelings of guilt. I saw and heard censure. Dean went right for the throat in that conversation because he was feeling guilty himself and saw an opportunity in Sam to deflect those feelings. And lets face it, Dean’s done that before, criticize when he has no right to do so to get the heat off of himself. Dean’s comments were in direct response to the conversation he and Sam had had earlier in the episode about weather or not he was ready to hunt. But instead of discussing that subject, and delving into why he might not be ready to hunt or go into any pertinent details from his time as a demon, Dean instead turned it back around onto Sam to make it about him and therefore get out from under the scrutiny and pressure he was feeling. The fact is, in a conversation about weather Dean is ready to hunt, a perfectly logical conversation BTW given what he’s just been through, there was simply no reason for Dean to bring up Lester at all. The only reason he did it was because, after all this time, Dean STILL can’t man up to his crap and would rather make Sam feel some guilt so that he doesn’t have to feel so bad about what he’s done. Sam was totally surprised to suddenly be discussing Lester and so was the audience because Lester was so far from the crux of their current discussion. Lester had nothing to do with that conversation whatsoever so Dean’s motivations in brining him up are completely suspect IMO. He was deflecting and not commiserating at all IMO.
I also find it telling that Dean made out what Sam did seem worse than it actually was…
[quote]Dean: I just figured, since we’re opening up veins that maybe you’d want to talk about the guy who you [b]made[/b] sell his soul.
Sam: The guy who you then killed, right? I mean, that’s the same guy we’re talking about?
Dean: I was a demon.[/quote]
Sam did not MAKE Lester sell his soul; he used Lester as bait (and that isn’t a good thing, but he’s done it before and so has Dean) but Lester sold his own soul because he was a moron and a douche. Sam did not MAKE him do anything, the selling the soul part is on Lester. Sam was a fool to use Lester as bait, but the soul in hell for all eternity thing is on Lester. And because of DD not following the rules Lester didn’t even get his 10 years. I also find it telling (and unflattering to boot) that in the same conversation that Dean turned on Sam about Lester that he completely negated his own culpability but saying “I was a demon.” Oh…so that gives Dean an excuse not to own up to anything he did while he was a demon, I see… Dean gets a pass cause he was a demon. I guess later in the season he’ll be saying “I have the mark” which will mitigate anything he might do that’s sketchy. And that will leave him free to criticize Sam’s every move in his attempts to help save Dean from the mark as well, how convenient. In Season 6 Sam never once used “I was soulless” as an excuse for the things he did while soulless. He tried desperately to atone for his sins; he owned up to everything and would not allow anyone to use the “It wasn’t you” excuse. I, for one, would like to see Dean do the same, but I am sure not seeing that here.
With all the crap that these boys have to work out in themselves and between them, more than anything else this season I’d like to see Dean begin to own up to the things he’s done like a man; take it on, admit to it, feel bad about it, atone and apologize all without denial or deflection. Little kids deflect their guilt onto other people and try and make others feel bad so that they don’t have to feel to bad. This is an unflattering and childish trait and it’s time that it go away forever. And this “don’t say sorry, we’re family” crap? Ugh… you need to be able to say “sorry” to family first and most readily as family deserves your best consideration of their feelings the MOST. I wish that Sam had NEVER said that…
I also enjoyed the scene with the boys at the lake. it felt to me more like jared and Jensen just hanging out rather than sam and dean….it made me giggle:D I also think the conversation between dean and sam regarding dean wanting to do the right thing for once was reminiscent of the conversation sam had with dean in metamorphosis. if anyone can understand where dean is coming from, it’s sam because he’s experienced it himself. this will come a long way on the road to recovery. 😉
My favorite scene https://33.media.tumblr.com/7ff6300c15b2c9c253e20947419e052e/tumblr_ne74rqnCKu1qafea7o1_500.gif 🙂
1. It definitely was pretty heavy-handed, though I didn’t mind so much in this episode. I always feel like it gets kind of ominous when they parallel like this and one of a pair ends up having to kill the other, but I think in this case I felt like it might have been hinting at what might have happened if they hadn’t been able to cure Dean and Sam really had to do what possibly needed to be done? It’s not really a pleasant thought, so I tend to hope Sam and Dean continue to be the exception to the rule for the most part.
2. In some ways it’s hard to say. He does still have the Mark, so there’s no telling what effect it might have on him when he does actually kill. Sam for his part seems to be thinking this way, considering how he took out the two red-shirt werewolves before Dean barely had the chance to grab his dagger. I think, like both brothers have done before, Dean is trying to use hunting as a crutch. Not just to try and have to avoid dealing with this crap, but also because he thinks-as his words at the end of the episode indicate-that if he does enough of the “right thing” all the bad stuff will just go away. I don’t really think either of them are ready to hunt yet, actually. They haven’t done enough healing just yet, and if they’re going to keep running into these morally ambiguous cases, I don’t think it’s gonna help, either.
3. I loved their conversations. I like that they were trying to talk things out, and that they were actually listening to one another. Yes, they didn’t make much headway, but coming from guys who’ve spent the last nine seasons doing their variety of not dealing with anything, I’ll take what I can get. I would like some more of this thing called “communicating”, though.
4. Yes. She made a mistake, but her heart was in the right place (maybe a little misplaced), even if she went about it in a rather dangerous, reckless way, and she hasn’t as yet, actually killed anyone innocent as far as we know. I don’t think she deserved to die. As she said, she was just hoping she could make something good out of all of it, and it all went to crap (and like that’s never happened before on this show). And hell, watching her kill her sister at the end hit me right where it hurts (I’ve got a little sister, so yeah), so I sympathized.
5. I generally enjoy a classic MOTW and though it was a little predictable (I was practically counting down the seconds until Sam got the call from the sheriff to say there’d been another killing), I did find myself feeling like this episode worked better than last week’s did. And Sam and Dean were in Park Ranger uniforms.
Some other thoughts:
I loved Sam and Dean by that lake, sunglasses and all. Downtime, Winchester style, even if neither of them looked particularly relaxed.
I mentioned this in Alice’s review, but the sign next to them at the lake said “no hunting”. I couldn’t help but wonder if that was intentional, or just a happy coincidence.
Dean ribbing Sam about his injury was classic.
I liked that black jacket Dean was wearing.
hey leah,
we’ve all been privvy to conversations between sam and dean where dean in an effort to appear right, has gone for sam’s throat. when dean wants to be mean he’s mean. like you, I didn’t get that here at all. I didn’t get the sense that dean wanted to hurt sam. his tone, his mannerisms, his entire demeanor…did not feel like dean in defense mode, which is usually when he verbally attacks. it just felt to me more like dean not only recognized and accepted his own behavior, but knowing sam as he does, he had sam recognize that he has to face up to and accept his behavior. I don’t mean that nor do I think dean means that in a malicious way. I don’t feel it was in an “oh you think i’m bad, well look at what you did way.” for me, it was more like, I know i’ve done things that I feel like crap for, but you did something that makes you feel like crap too. better to talk and deal with it head on than to bury it and let it eat away at you.
this is why I think it was mentioned. the flashbacks were pretty specific and they did show the part where dean told sam he was a monster for what he’d done. they also showed sam’s reaction to what dean said. we all know he did that to break sam…because dd knows sam better than anyone and he knows that down the line, this action will eventually eat away at him…hence him bringing it up in the first place. it stands to reason that dean knows full well that what sam did will eventually eat away at him, he’s seen it before. while dean didn’t really think before he spoke, and ended up saying lester was on sam….I don’t think it came out the way he meant it. based on sam’s reaction to what dean said, that’s when dean started to backpedal and explain to sam that he wasn’t complaining, that in fact he was doing the opposite. dean does tend to speak without thinking and what he really means isn’t always what comes out of his mouth. I felt that here. it was my first reaction….the first thought in my head was …nice job dean putting that foot in your mouth:D, especially when sam didn’t make lester do anything…. what I do think dean meant, and again, my opinion, ….if anyone can sell ice cream to an eskimo on a cold winters day with those sincere puppy dog eyes and that lilt in the voice, it’s sam….so I don’t think “made” in this instance was the use of force..i think it was more along the lines of sam having the ability to convince people to believe him just by his sincerity….dean has fallen victim to sam on many an occasion:D all sam did here was offer lester an opportunity….lester, drunk or not, could’ve told sam to take a hike.
what it comes down to, the way I see it….dean knows that sam feels bad about lester. he knows it’s weighing heavy on him. to tell you the truth, as bad as it all is, i really think this experience has changed dean in a more positive way too. he couldn’t/didn’t deny anything sam said to him. he couldn’t/didn’t sweep it under the rug. he couldn’t/didn’t ignore it. this time dean had no choice but to face what happened. i think and it’s merely my own opinion, but guessing by what he said at the end….this is good….this is good, i think dean might actually recognize how he ended up where he is. i just get this feeling that dean knows that if he’d just been honest with sam and himself in the first place, he wouldn’t have become what he became. dean is really being honest with himself and sam for the first time in a very long time. i may be reading too much into it, but i really got the sense that dean didn’t bring up lester to hurt sam, i think he brought up lester because he knows sam is already hurting from what he’s done. i really do believe dean wants sam to face his crap just like dean has to face his….and not because” if i have to you have to”…but because not dealing with it can be so much worse down the line. for the first time in a really long time I think dean understands the consequences of not being honest with himself and ea. other. i truly feel he wants sam to face what he did, because if he doesn’t it’ll only end up destroying him in the long run, as dean is well aware.
I’ve noticed dean to be up and down in this eppy. when dealing with kate in regards to Tasha he flat out told her it was too late, she can’t come back from that, ever. I, as I think sam too, got the sense that dean was actually referring to himself. seems he’s already given up on himself. then again at the end he talked about the need to do the right thing…as if holding out hope for himself. by the end of the episode I was left with feeling that dean needs sam to be strong, which I think plays a part in why dean wants sam to face up to what he’s already feeling guilty about. i got a sense from him that he knows he’s going to need sam…he’s going to need sam to be strong and he’s going to rely on sam’s faith, as he so often has before. when all was said and done he admitted to sam he was right, he wasn’t ready to hunt but he needed to do the right thing because all he’s been doing is the wrong thing. i think dean might carry this attitude for awhile and i think it will be a rocky road for him. i’m probably reading way too much into it….but i just got the sense from dean that he knows he’ll be relying on sam to keep him afloat, and i think they’re both going to need to be strong….so dealing with their crap head on, being honest with ea. other and themselves….it’s what they need to do if they’re going to keep above water.
e, i haven’t really seen any posts that believe sam to be a monster. i haven’t really seen any posts that fault sam at all. i only read what’s here, so i don’t know what’s out there….i definitely don’t feel like show is condemning sam and not dean. in this episode alone dean tells sam that he’s not complaining at all. to be honest, imho, this episode was never about blame or who was worse than the other….this episode was about having the boys face their inner monster head on and kicking it’s ass. this episode was more honest than any ep in a long time. i didn’t find the overall ep having show condemning either brother or the boys condemning ea. other. i saw this episode as the first step toward healing. .i think what show is trying to do here is get the brothers to look at themselves , not to see how bad they are, but to accept who they are.
I mean if you consider the situation, who is the real monster here anyway? all sam did was approach an individual who was drunk and down in the dumps. sam’s so called monstrous act was simply taking advantage of someone who was down on his luck and intoxicated. while that’s questionable it’s certainly not monstrous. as I recall, lester was sober at the crossroads. lester admittedly was already bent on revenge…sam dangled a carrot yes, but he never made anyone eat it. sam made an offer that lester could very well have refused. sam didn’t “make” anyone do anything….lester made that decision for himself. lester could’ve told sam to screw off and then sam would’ve made another attempt with someone else, which only shows how desperate sam is not how so called monstrous he is. the way I saw it t sam’s plan was to use someone as bait, while it’s manipulative and something that goes against sam’s general nature, it’s not what I would consider a monstrous act. in fact, when all was said and done, the way I saw it, the only real monster here was lester. lester wanted revenge on his wife which is a normal response when someone finds out they’ve been cheated on, but his revenge was murder. not only did he want to murder his wife, but he wanted to murder her for doing the exact same thing he did to her. her crime is punishable by death while his, because he’s a man, was acceptable and normal. I have to tell you, between the three of them, the only monster I saw here was lester. dd killed lester yes, but ironically even he saw lester’s true nature even before he admitted anything. this was a man willing to sell his own soul just to kill another human being. sam never intended to let lester do anything but summon a demon, but it was lester himself who wanted his wife dead. the only mistake sam made was tempting a dumb ass. lester’s death is just desserts. the way see it show might have the boys questioning their actions but not so that they see themselves as monsters. In my opinion, lester was meant to illustrate what a true monster is and to get the boys to recognize that they are nothing like that. That while they’re flawed, and they’ve made mistakes, when it comes down to it, they are good people who care about humanity and ea. other. i think show wants the boys to accept themselves for who they are and be proud of that. i also think show is paving the way for a more honest and stronger bond……that’s just me. 😉
I do like your interpretation of all this nappi, but I feel like this whole argument tends to come down to semantics. To me, there’s a difference between making someone do something and manipulating someone into doing something of their own free will as you were saying in your last paragraph, and Sam is pretty much firmly in the latter camp. It’s not necessarily nice, but there you go. But if that’s what Dean meant, then that’s how it probably should’ve been said on screen. Instead of saying “the guy you made…”, it could’ve been something more like “the guy you doe-eyed into…”. It’s a subtle difference maybe, but it still communicates more of the same thing without seeming to put the blame quite so firmly on Sam’s shoulders.
It’s funny. Everyone seems to agree that Sam didn’t [i]make[/i] anyone do anything, yet there it was coming out of Dean’s mouth. Just a wrong choice of words on Adam Glass’s part? Or a deliberate choice of words, so as to have Dean putting his foot in his mouth? Or a deliberate choice of words to extol the whole “who’s the real monster” spin they’re going for? I don’t know, they drive me crazy sometimes. :p
Still, I’d be ok with the whole thing as is (because it really did come across to me as a ploy by Dean to shift the focus away from himself more than anything more sinister) but then it was immediately followed up, after Sam commented on Dean having been the one to actually kill the guy, with “I was a demon” which if you’re looking for it can so easily be interpreted as passing the blame buck, like, “Yeah, you made the guy sell his soul, and I may have killed him, but hey, I was a demon so…”
I also have no idea what’s out there since this is the only place I go, but I can probably imagine what it would be like if it was. It rankled me a tiny bit when I watched, so I’m sure it has rubbed others the wrong way too. It’s just the way the scene played out, I guess.
I actually hope they’d (meaning the writers) just drop the whole Lester thing now. It wasn’t half as bad as they seem to be making it out to be and if all it’s going to generate is discussions about which brother did worse by poor douchy Lester, I’d rather them just move onto something else, for our sanity and theirs.
I’m glad though that Sam and Dean have taken the first steps. It’s good to see them communicating. I just don’t want it to turn into a blame game. These guys have now had plenty opportunities to walk a mile in the others’ shoes, so I’d love to see some proper understanding (and peace, dammit) come out of all this. 😉
Yes… EXACTLY! You said it much better than I did.
Sorry nappi but there are posts in this very thread blaming Sam for pretty much everything Dean’s gone through since the start of season 8.
I only read certain posts…never saw them. 😀 :p
[quote]I mean if you consider the situation, who is the real monster here anyway? all sam did was approach an individual who was drunk and down in the dumps. sam’s so called monstrous act was simply taking advantage of someone who was down on his luck and intoxicated. while that’s questionable, it’s certainly not monstrous.[/quote]
Too be fair. As much as I’d like Dean to stop deflecting (which I still believe he was doing in this episode, shifting blame to make himself feel better) I don’t want to let Sam off the hook here either. Sam did much more than simply take advantage of someone who was drunk. He introduced an innocent (a schmuck and a boob, but still an innocent as far as the supernatural went) to a world of evil that he knew nothing about before. He took advantage of Lester’s vulnerable state to manipulate him into summoning a demon all for his own purposes. Had Lester lived perhaps Demons would have come looking for him, taken him for a meatsuit etc… The point is Sam is responsible for introducing Lester to that world. Lester was bait and that’s not cool no matter how big of a douche bag Lester turned out to be. What if the demon saw it was actually Sam that was behind the summoning and that she’d been tricked and decided to just killed Lester out of spite? She could have, and that would have been very demon like actually and Sam would have been totally responsible. In many ways he was responsible even though Lester made his own deal of his own free volition. Lester wouldn’t have even known there was a deal to make had Sam not introduced him to the concept. I just didn’t like Dean bringing it up and harping on it to mitigate his own guilt; glass houses and all that. neither brother gets a free pass as far as I am concerned. I will be curious going forward where they go with this whole “bigger monster” crap. I am NOT digging that whole plot concept let me tell you.
Hi Nappi! I don’t know whether we are right or wrong here but I completely concur with your take on everything here. I am very hopeful and excited for the direction of the season so far.:)
The way I look at it, dean was either deliberately clever by saying what he did to Sam or it was a blundered attempt by dean, no matter how you slice it, the end result is what was important here. That was getting Sam to deal with what he did in his attempt to find dean…..not because dean wasn’t ok with it or saw it as monstrous, because as he just confessed, the opposite is true. No it’s about what Sam thinks that matters…whether deliberate or a blundered attempt, dean got a reaction from Sam…and he defended what he did. He wasn’t proud, but he did what he thought necessary to find dean…dean knows this….Sam needed to know this too…and dean got Sam to admit that ……now hopefully Sam won’t continue to beat himself up over it and won’t let what dd said make him doubt himself. Winchester therapy:D