WFB Deja Vu Review – Supernatural 9.15 – “Thinman”
It’s ironic. Ghostfacer episodes are supposed to be comic relief, standalone, monster of the week stories. While “#THINMAN” surely qualified as a standalone monster story, the monsters were humans, the comedy was poignantly serious and fans’ reactions to the episode were anything but neutral. You either loved it or hated it. I have to admit, my reaction to the episode softened during the second viewing (I initially didn’t even write a review of it because the messages were so obvious). Alice loved it on both viewings. Nate, well, I’ll let you decide how Nate felt about “#THINMAN”!
Alice
Going through #THINMAN last night for the repeat viewing wasn’t much different than the first go around. I loved it the first time, I loved it the second time. For one, it’s no secret how much I love the Ghostfacers. It’s also no secret how much I love Ben Edlund, who was the guy that ran with the Ghostfacers universe, expanding it wildly from the two guys on “Hell House” to a whole franchise. Writer Jenny Klein did an excellent job of living up to Ben Edlund’s true vision of the Ghostfacers with #THINMAN. The dialogue was sharp and witty and completely silly, in pure Ghostfacers style. The pacing and storyline was entertaining, and even The Ghostfacers, much like Sam and Dean, are facing maturity in their years. Life is going on around them and they have to deal.
You’ve got to understand, Ed and Harry are the anti-Winchesters. Always have been, even in their first episode, “Hell House.” Where Sam and Dean approach the supernatural with subtlety and like to remain anonymous, the Ghostfacers are blatant fame whores taking everything they do to extremes. Sam and Dean are saving the world, The Ghostfacers are creating internet legends. The Ghostfacers are on Twitter, Sam and Dean are not (yes, I died laughing over that).
You would think that after the death of Corbett in the Ghostfacers season three episode that things would have gotten real for Ed and Harry, but they apparently remained in their little legend world, even after the rest of the team grew up and got real lives. If anyone was ever due for a reality check, it’s the Ghostfacers. This isn’t just some run of the mill internet hyped ghost hunt. Real people are dying, and suddenly s*** is getting real. This isn’t play stuff anymore. My heart was especially crushed for Harry. Given what those guys do, one of them was bound to kill something eventually, but it was really tough to see Harry have to go through his first kill like that. He didn’t kill a ghost or a monster. It was a guy, even if he was a bad guy. That’s going to haunt him forever and the age of innocence is gone. Talk about being punched in the feels.
I love how no one, especially Sam and Dean, considered the culprits to be human. They’ve been so wrapped up in dealing with the supernatural all this time they didn’t see the obvious (I guess “The Benders” was season one). After being captured even Sam clung to the idea the cop was a demon. It was obvious to most of us it was just human beings riding an urban legend to push their agendas. Sadly, this sort of thing does happen in real life, mostly recently with the Slenderman legend, which is what #THINMAN is based upon.
The plot was clearly meant to be an exaggerated parallel of Sam and Dean’s personal drama, and the anvils were flying! For anyone that wants to criticize the heavy handed nature of the parallels though, you have to understand that’s the point. Mission accomplished. Intentionally or not, Ed and Harry’s drama does make Sam and Dean’s seem kind of stupid. As a matter of fact, Klein offered the absolutely perfect setup for the brotherly bond to be repaired. Sam and Dean could have easily gone back to the bunker at this point and hugged it out, realizing between Kevin, Ed, and Harry they need each other. But no, the crap was dragged out for 8 more episodes, and from this point forward it seemed totally illogical. That’s no fault of the #THINMAN script though. It all falls on a bunch of writers that just weren’t on the same page when it came to plotting a season.
I’ll finish with my absolute favorite lines:
Harry: Ah, the Winchesters. Yay.
Ed: Says nobody…
Harry: Ever!
Harry: First of all, hell no. And — and quit raining on my rainbow.
Ed: Rainbows can’t happen without rain.
Harry: Don’t try to use science with me.
Harry: I just got punched right in the feels.
Dean: So you’re Thinman? That would make sense if it didn’t look like you just ate a fat camp.
Ed: It’s Scooby-Doo time, douchebag. Take off the mask. I know you’re not Thinman. You’re just a me-me.
Harry: Ed, it’s pronounced meme.
Ed: It’s spelled M-E-M-E though.
Harry: The second E is silent.
Ed: You’re a me-me. A man meme. And I invented you.
Nate Winchester
Random Thoughts (from the #WFBRewatch Live Tweet)
· The first kill still makes no sense all things considered from the revelations. Seriously, they say doors & windows were locked, so how did 2 normal guys get in and out?
· TALKING EXTRA, KILL HIM!
· I so wonder what the ghostfacers have been up to the previous seasons. Like when the Winchesters were on TV for murder in S7. Or when the meteor shower was happening worldwide. How have the ghostfacers not been all over that?
· Boys, recruit the ghostfacers to be the new men of letters. YOU COULD USE THE HELP!
· Heh, ghost with a brand name, that’s an episode we need. Colonel Sanders haunting!
· Online ghost, another episode we need.
· “Sheriff on a hunting trip.” SHERIFF IS JOHN WINCHESTER!
· I would have laughed my ass off if the deputy turned out to be a fan of the Carver Edlund books.
· Talking extra is down. I repeat, talking extra is down. Put out an APB on all other talking extras.
· Funny that the ghostfacers are in many ways the little brothers Dean didn’t quite have.
· “When I think teleport…” you don’t think angel?
· Also funny that Harry needed a reason to “stay” when there have been hundreds of reasons for the last 5 years.
· Shouldn’t the ghostfacers have salt-loaded guns on hand? Harry may want to keep one of those with him.
· “Does it matter if we keep it going for the fans?” Is that a cry for help from Carver?
· “We set out to help people.” Well at least someone on the show remembers that.
· For once the boys are unconscious not because of a blow to the head. Their brains thank the deputy.
· Remember when in episode 1 getting out of handcuffs was almost a casual effort by Dean?
· “Team effort”? But the one on camera didn’t look anything like the deputy.
· ghostfacers break in… with only flashlights? guys you should know better!
· Oh there, Ed has a gun.
· I know Dean maybe shouldn’t have [killed that guy] but dang that kid deserved it.
· Dean to Harry: “Awww man, way to kill-steal you griefer!”
· And welcome to the most depressing ending since Fry’s Dog… #thisroomistoodusty
Overall
Another problem with the season this episode revealed: just the general bleed-out of humor the show’s been going through. The ghostfacers’ appearances were generally ones of fun and laughter. Sure we’d all like to think we’d be a Winchester if in the world of Supernatural, but if we’re being honest with ourselves, we’d have to admit far more of us would be Harry or Ed.
Lorewise this episode doesn’t make any sense unless it takes place somewhere other than the Supernatural-universe. At least twice the two of them have encountered real ghosts (I’m counting the webseries as canon), they know those things are out there and that someone needs to handle the problem. Then once they realize ghosts are real, one wonders why none of their attention was pricked by all the other things that have happened since their last appearance in S4. Off the top of my head, things that were confirmed as vaguely known to the general public which should have tipped off the GFers: A freak eclipse, the reports of someone declaring himself God, the food additive deal, the death & disappearance of a public figure like Dick Roman, and the world-wide meteor shower.
Even worse, the lesson of S7 to the boys should have been: We are stronger with allies (notice how nothing turned around for them until they met Charlie & Kevin). The boys also now have a huge bunker which, quite frankly, I doubt they can take care of on their own especially with their constant running off to investigate things. So, like it or not, why don’t the Winchesters invite the ghostfacers to be the new generation of MoL? No, not everyone is cut out to be a hunter, but even soldiers and cops have support staffs (sometimes sizable ones) that make their job a lot more efficient and doable. I really wish they would take the opportunity to explore the Winchesters reestablishing the old networks. Heck Harry & Ed in the bunker would allow plenty of drama & conflict without… well, what we went through this season, while keeping a touch of humor. Cas was supposed to grow into being a leader this season (well that’s what they told us, not as much showing), isn’t it about time for the Winchesters to similarly grow as well?
But no. Though they are too lovable to be literally killed, the Ghostfacers have been metaphorically executed and join the long line of reoccurring guest characters never to be seen again. How long until “is this the same show” will have to be answered, “no”?
Nightsky
Overall
I confess. I’m not a big fan of the Ghostfacers. At face value I am so distracted by their inane dialog I can’t enjoy anything they say or do. Smelling a dead girl’s lingerie? “Sticks in the shape of a pile”? “Just got kicked right in the feels”? Their episodes have to grow on me, so I was curious what I would see in the rewatch of “#THINMAN”.
We all caught the heavy-handed mirroring between the Ghostfacers and the Winchesters (even though the picture above was a great shot by the director). Ed lied. Harry was deeply hurt. Ed was surprised by Harry’s reaction. Harry agreed to “just work” the job because that was all that was left of their partnership. When the job was over, Harry left, wondering if that was the end of a friendship he thought he’d have until the day he died.
When we first watched, analyzed and discussed this episode, we thought that maybe this drama played out in front of Sam and Dean so they could learn from it. We wondered if they would see the other brother’s point of view and reach past their pain to repair their relationship. In retrospect, that didn’t happen. Subsequent episodes never showed either brother wondering what happened to Harry or Ed, or using their situation to launch a conversation. In a way, maybe that makes sense. Both brothers were so entrenched in their own point of view, the Ghostfacers’ replication of their choices and feelings probably just deepened the justification they felt for their own reactions. “Don’t you see, Dean? Harry didn’t like being lied to either” and “Don’t you see, Sam? Ed lied because he wanted to do what he thought was best for Harry”. In the end, either the lessons didn’t break through the boys’ tunnel vision, or Sam’s hurt was too raw to be able to forgive or forget so quickly. Sam and Harry’s short conversation about Ed’s transgression made me wonder if Sam ultimately decided to forgive or forget what Dean did, though.
HARRY: None of it was real, Sam. Ed was just pretending, and now he wants me to pretend, like this is just something I could get past.
SAM: I know what you mean. Look, there are things you can forgive, and there are things you can’t.
When Sam held his dying brother in his arms and his love for Dean broke through all the hurt in the season finale, had Sam forgiven or just decided to accept Dean’s actions as loving instead of selfish? I don’t think we know the answer to that question for sure, but I tend to think Sam forgave Dean. They still have a LOT to talk about, but forgiveness is essential before redemption, and I believe season 10 will be about redemption. I have to wonder, though, if Harry was indeed giving up on Ed, does that make Sam’s acceptance even more impressive? Are the writers again saying that the brothers’ love is stronger than any friendship, or any other male bonding? Personally, I choose to think so, but humans make mistakes, so I also hope that Harry eventually forgives Ed.
Random Thoughts
· I was afraid of what Harry was going to show us when he said “my pistola” and raised his shirt…” I wasn’t the only one either since Dean asked “Am I supposed to be impressed with that treasure trail?”!
· It was very odd that the deputy was happy that deaths in his town were being caused by something supernatural. It turns out that was our clue that he was behind the deaths.
· Dean: “…right now, the veil is all kinds of screwed, okay? Ghosts could be popping up anywhere.” On first watch, we all thought that could be a clue to where the “veil” arc might go. As it turns out, the veil storyline was virtually dropped for the rest of season 9. I wonder if it will be revisited in season 10.
· Harry sounded just like Gabriel when he said “Hell NO”! In which episode did Gabriel say that?? Driving me crazy!
· Ed: “We were the Thinman guys. Without him, we’re just guys”. The Winchesters never hunted for the glory (or Twitter/Facebook followers!). Dean didn’t save Sam because they needed fame, or Dean needed Sam to salvage a hunting identity. Dean saved Sam because Sam needed to be saved.
· ED: If I tell Harry, he’s gonna leave the Ghostfacers.
SAM: Listen, if you don’t tell him, he’s gonna leave anyway. Trust me here. Secrets ruin relationships.
Fear permeates so many human relationships. It’s so hard to face the fear of losing the people we love.
Sam’s wisdom: Face your fear and acknowledge it. It’s the only way to work through it and past it.
· Were the hand signals between the Ghostfacers meant to copy battle signals between the brothers?
· That kill by Dean was SOOOO MoC! We wondered about that but yes, that was emerging Demon!Dean.
· When Ed asked “where does that leave us?”, Harry answered “It’s complicated”. Nice reference back to what Harry’s girlfriend said to him when she broke up with him. The Ghostfacers just “broke up”. Besides the obvious relationship inference, I wonder if that is another way of killing off old characters. They can’t be brought into future episodes if they don’t hunt together anymore.
· …and since no one mentioned it, I have to add…I still love that scene where Sam and Dean are momentarily brothers again, and all because of a broken arm. Did anyone else think of Jared in his sling at that moment?
******
So what did you think of “#THINMAN”? Did the “anvils” bother you as much this time around? How about that kill of Dean’s? There was so much controversy about that before we knew the ultimate path of the MoC!
If you want to catch up, compare opinions or refresh your memory, all our original reviews are all listed in our Episode Guide, including insights by Gerry, Sophia and FarAwayEyes. Nate’s remix is there too! Screencaps and promotional pictures can be viewed in our Photo Gallery.
Thanks to www.supernaturalwiki.com for the quotes and www.homeofthenutty.com for the screencaps.

- I’m the Co-Editor-in-Chief, Social Media Manager (Twitter, Facebook and Instagram), Live Tweet Moderator, reviewer and feature writer for The Winchester Family Business. Before joining the Supernatural Family, I worked for 22 years at a global consulting firm, but after years of long hours, high pressure and rigorous demands, I quit corporate life to raise my children. After my first Supernatural convention, I was driven to share my shock and awe in a two-part essay that The WFB was brave enough to post, and my second life calling, that of being a writer, began. My first published book, Fan Phenomena: The Twilight Saga was released in late 2016. Please share in my cross-fandom excitement by following its Facebook page @FanPhenomenaTwilight and my personal Twitter account @LSAngel2. You can read about this whole miraculous transition in my chapter in Family Don’t End With Blood, published in May 2017.
I will forever love Jenny Klein for Batman and Superman. I couldn’t even tell you what else happened in that episode, that’s all I saw. Whenever I think of the Weechesters that is what I am going to see in my mind.
I agree that was an awesome shared adult moment and provided our imaginations with a great childhood visual. It ranks with the fireworks scene in Dark Side of the Moon when adult Dean smiled the smile of youthful joy.
I loved the Ghostfacers as comic relief and and in particular in Ep 4.17 Its a Terrible Life when Sam and Dean as Sam Wesson and Dean Smith use the Ghotfacer’s site as a ghost hunting guide. The Ed and Harry characters seemed like parody characters themselves; so I could not buy into Ed and Harry being real persons with real life problems. In addition, the anvils were dropped but did not provide our main characters with any movement in story or insight. The whole episode seemed like pulling cartoon characters into real life to give the audience a bad lecture that Sam and Dean did not hear.
I can take or leave the Ghostfacers but this episode they were downright annoying. The batman / superman childhood story was a nice touch. They should have had a warning before the episode – falling anvils, viewer discretion advised. While I don’t agree with Alice’s assessment that they could have set it up for Sam and Dean to just hug it out the bunker, the conflict did drag out for a very long time – this was done for Dean’s dehumanization but, realistically, Sam needed to either shit or get off the pot by now. He needed to make a decision to forgive Dean or move on with his life because this partner only crap wasn’t working and, by Sam’s reaction when Dean was in peril, was a load of crap anyway.
I didn’t like Thinman that much but it wasn’t totally bad. It had it’s good moments like the mentioned Batman/Superman part. Dean looked like Dean again for a moment and even Sam. It was actually a hit in the gut when both remembered where they are now. That look was heart felt as the smiles left their faces. Also Dean killing the bad guy slowly like that. There was chills running trough my spine. He was a bad guy of course but that killing act was slow and cold. It is way more different if the head is chopped off fast or the kill is fast in general rather than doing it like that.
It was pretty anvil strong episode but I think it was meant that way. All in all it changed nothing and I think the Winchester’s are probably most stubborn men in the world. 😀
– Lilah
Yeah, the flying anvils were pretty bad. I am used to Supernatural being more subtle and nuanced than that. And I agree with split that [quote]The whole episode seemed like pulling cartoon characters into real life to give the audience a bad lecture that Sam and Dean did not hear.[/quote] I agree. What is the point of having those annoying avails in the first place if the characters who are being hit over the head by them don’t learn anything from them? Who were those anvils for? Us? Hell… we KNOW already, it’s Sam and Dean that need a ticket on the clue bus.
And I am going to have to disagree with all of the people who just wanted the brothers to “get over it” That negates both the severity of the act and the victims response to that act. And when people say “just get over it” it is really about Sam getting over it, because he is the injured party here and it was his response that was being made the issue. For Dean, there was nothing to “get over” so a comment like that falls squarely on to Sam, and IMO that is unfair to him. To tell Sam to just go back to the bunker and hug it out is to negate his reaction to what Dean did to him and labeling it as incorrect or wrong.
And I further disagree with njspnfan’s assessment that [quote]Sam needed to either shit or get off the pot by now. He needed to make a decision to forgive Dean or move on with his life [/quote] It’s pretty hard to forgive a transgression when the transgressor refuses to apologize or even acknowledge that their actions hurt. So, Sam is supposed to just forgive Dean and Dean isn’t supped to do anything? It’s all up to Sam? IMO that’s back to putting a couple of “W’s” in the win column and moving on business as usual with Dean running Sam’s life and doing what ever he pleases to his brother because it suits Dean. I think everyone is missing the point; the brothers need to understand one another and by season’s end I was seeing some understanding of Dean’s position from Sam, but not any understanding what-so-ever (as per usual) from Dean about what Sam has been going through.
And I am going to have to disagree with all of the people who just wanted the brothers to “get over it” That negates both the severity of the act and the victims response to that act. And when people say “just get over it” it is really about Sam getting over it, because he is the injured party here and it was his response that was being made the issue. For Dean, there was nothing to “get over” so a comment like that falls squarely on to Sam, and IMO that is unfair to him. To tell Sam to just go back to the bunker and hug it out is to negate his reaction to what Dean did to him and labeling it as incorrect or wrong.
And I further disagree with njspnfan’s assessment that
Sam needed to either shit or get off the pot by now. He needed to make a decision to forgive Dean or move on with his life
“It’s pretty hard to forgive a transgression when the transgressor refuses to apologize or even acknowledge that their actions hurt. So, Sam is supposed to just forgive Dean and Dean isn’t supped to do anything? It’s all up to Sam? IMO that’s back to putting a couple of “W’s” in the win column and moving on business as usual with Dean running Sam’s life and doing what ever he pleases to his brother because it suits Dean. I think everyone is missing the point; the brothers need to understand one another and by season’s end I was seeing some understanding of Dean’s position from Sam, but not any understanding what-so-ever (as per usual) from Dean about what Sam has been going through.”
Hear! Hear! This so much. IMO Dean needs to understand that what he did to Sam was wrong and until he does and acknowledges it Sam should not just get over it. Dean was wrong and Sam was his victim. I hope that will be addressed more in S10. People, even people in comas have the right to decide what is done with their bodies. That’s the law and why DNR’s are so important. This is what Dean violated…Sam’s bodily autonomy.
E – that’s good and well but my comment did not imply that Sam should just get over it. If you go back to my comments over season 9, i was quite vocal in my condemnation of Dean taking away Sam’s agency, saving Sam in a way that he knew Sam would never agree to. Of all the things the brothers have done to each other, I thought this was by far the worst. But…did anyone think this partner only stuff was working? Sam did need to make a decision as to whether he could forgive Dean or not. He knows his brother, knows why he did it, knows he’s not going to get a heartfelt apology because Dean wasn’t sorry. Dean may have been sorry about some of the consequences but not the fact the Sam was alive. If he can’t forgive Dean, then he needed to move on with his life without Dean because neither of them could live with the arrangement they had.
[quote]knows he’s not going to get a heartfelt apology because Dean wasn’t sorry.[/quote]This is the reason why Sam could not get over the betrayal.
[quote]He knows his brother, knows why he did it,[/quote]Does not make it right
[quote] If he can’t forgive Dean, then he needed to move on with his life without Dean because neither of them could live with the arrangement they had.[/quote]Sam tried to live with that arrangement and he was successful.It was Dean who had the problem with the arrangement.When Sam clearly said that he wanted to have a professional relationship and Dean wants to exclude Sam from a hunt..the passive aggressive SH!T that he pulled that is Dean.How about a little change in your comment If Dean knows he is not getting an acceptance from Sam how about he move away why stay there .Every action has a consequence and Dean’s had too.It is not on Sam to let off Dean after such a violation without even an apology from Dean.How about say Dean apologize so atleast Sam will be mollified.If your answer is because that would be insincere then Sam simply letting off Dean either by forgiving or by moving on would be a lie too.
AnonymousN, I’m not quite sure how to interpret your reply. “How about a little change in your comment” and “How about say” could be you trying to suggest changes that would allow you to be more comfortable or even agree with prior comments, or they could be interpreted as being a little sarcastic to other commenters. Since this is an international forum it is sometimes hard to be sure what people mean. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, because all opinions are welcome at the WFB , as long as they stay respectful.
[quote]could be you trying to suggest changes that would allow you to be more comfortable or even agree with prior comments, or they could be interpreted as being a little sarcastic to other commenters. [/quote]It was neither.I modified her comment to say what I wanted to say.The responsibility was put only on San so I gave an example of what Dean could do.
In the comment by njspnfan he/she says [quote]He needed to make a decision to forgive Dean or move on with his life because this partner only crap wasn’t working and,[/quote] and [quote]He knows his brother, knows why he did it, knows he’s not going to get a heartfelt apology because Dean wasn’t sorry. Dean may have been sorry about some of the consequences but not the fact the Sam was alive. If he can’t forgive Dean, then he needed to move on with his life without Dean because neither of them could live with the arrangement they had.[/quote]In both the instance there is nothing expected from Dean because well Sam is not going to get an apology.This is purely and simply telling Sam and only Sam to fix something for which he was victim because Sam understands Dean.Sam may understand Dean but what Dean did was not good but outright bad.I have seen normally in the articles or the comments that Sam should forgive Dean.What they do not comment on is the absence of an apology from Dean.Sam HAS to forgive Dean.Why? Dean never apologized.
Dean violated Sam ..now if we expect Sam to forgive …even when there is not even a shred of apology that is nothing but victim blaming.
What I want to say is this Sam may forgive or not, Sam may get over it or not all these thing come after Dean has the courage to apologize.Dean’s actions had consequences…tragic consequences..his motive was not love only….He was selfish too.Dean has to now deal with whatever Sam wants and if he disagrees say it outright not be passive aggressive.Sam stayed with his agreement of being partners it was Dean who had the problem.
Tell you what – how about I DON’T modify my comment and I standby my opinion as you standby yours. And as far as forgiveness, Sam needed to decide if he could forgive Dean – that was a conversation that Sam had with one of the Ghostfacers in this episode. If he couldn’t then it was time to move on. And for the record, neither of the brothers takes a back seat when it comes to passive aggressive behavior.
And for the record i didn’t think the professional/business only relationship was working for either of them.
[quote]Tell you what – how about I DON’T modify my comment and I standby my opinion as you standby yours.[/quote]OK.I modified your comment..i.e I used the template and changed Sam to Dean to tell what I wanted Dean to do.It was not in anyway a request or a demand or a potshot.What I wanted to tell was I am borrowing the template.
[quote]But…did anyone think this partner only stuff was working? Sam did need to make a decision as to whether he could forgive Dean or not.[/quote]
No, I did not think the partner only stuff was working, it was pretty clear that what Sam was saying and what he truly felt were at odds. It still does not make his stance wrong though or put the burden of initiating forgiveness on to him. If he hadn’t held his ground like he did then the message to Dean would have been “Yeah, I’m pissed, but I’ll get over it just like I always do and never hold you accountable for anything, so don’t worry about changing, just keep on making decisions for me, ignoring what I want or ever treating me like a functioning adult” just like in The Mentalists. It wasn’t for Sam to forgive IMO, it was for Dean to ask for forgiveness or at the very least acknowledge that his actions hurt and had terrible consequences. Dean can be happy that Sam is alive and still regretful of the pain he caused the same as Sam can also be grateful he’s alive but still not happy with Dean’s methods. But how can that happen if Dean won’t even acknowledge how heavy handed and dictatorial he was or that his decisions had terrible repercussions. Dean totally lost me when he basically said that Kevin’s Death was worth it to him if it meant Sam’s life. Dean was the one who needed to shit or get off the pot IMO. To me the whole of season 9 was about Sam waiting to see if Dean would show any interest at all in salvaging their brotherhood and changing how they dealt with one another. He waited and waited while Dean refused to talk to him, lied to him, and then told him he was right to do what he did and that he’d do it again and to get angry with Sam for not reacting the way Dean thought he should. It was all on Dean IMO and he failed spectacularly as a brother and as a hunter. In Dean’s final moments Sam must have realized that Dean’s ludicrous “I’m proud of us” statement was as close to an apology (which it wasn’t) as he was going to get. The “resolution” to the year long battle was woefully inadequate to the circumstances, but Sam realized that since Dean was dying that was probably all he was going to get. Crumbs for the starving man.
It was working for SAM. He wasn’t spiraling. He was setting boundaries and he still had Dean’s back. Sam was able to hunt with and without Dean. In fact Sam went back to being a competent hunter when Dean didn’t come along. It was sort of working for Dean. Dean didn’t get the Mark because of Sam’s partners only stance. Dean didn’t give Sam a chance to react. He told Sam he was poison. He told Sam that Sam was not permitted to feel guilty about Kevin. When Sam didn’t immediately reassure Dean, THAT was when Dean ran off and got the Mark. The reason I say it was sort of working for Dean was because Sam was able to talk him down when the Mark took over, even if Sam was only a partner. The arrangement helped keep Dean “human” longer than he would have without Sam. As a partner, Sam wanted to go with Dean to confront Metatron. Instead Dean went into big brother protect Sammy mode and ended up dead and a demon. It kind of reinforced what Sam said, things go wrong when they only act on being family and trying to save and protect Sam.
But aside from all that, you are saying that Sam has to give up EVERYTHING that he has unless he caves to Dean. He can’t take the Impala. No matter how much we have been told by Chuck it was their home, it only really belongs to Dean. Dean told Sam he douched the car up with an Ipod when Dean went to Hell. When Dean was alive and Sam had the temerity to take the Impala without Dean’s permission Dean found Sam and punched him in the head even though Sam was recovering from a concussion. No, the Impala is Dean’s. Dean has also claimed the Bunker as home. He was deeply unhappy that Sam didn’t see it that way and eventually Sam implied that he saw the Bunker as home. But Dean loves it more. Are you really expecting Dean to leave? Because I can hear the outcry now about how unfair Sam is to take Dean’s home away from him. You are saying that Sam has to either forgive Dean, who will never apologize, or lose everything he has in the world. To me that’s really unreasonable.
And now I’m going to go to a couple of gifs that are on Tumblr which put some of what Sam did into perspective by comparing Dean’s reaction to Sam and Demon blood to Sam’s reactions to Dean having Sam be possessed against his will and the MOC
Dean’s reaction to Sam trusting Ruby ([url]”http://percysowner.tumblr.com/post/80100451208/pantysam-hello-hi-did-we-forget-about”[/url])
Dean and Sam’s reaction to feeling betrayed and to Demon Blood vs MOC ([url]”http://percysowner.tumblr.com/post/84526359909/out-in-the-open-sam-and-deans-reactions-to”[/url])
The one difference here is that Dean was STILL punishing Sam about his fall from grace FOUR season later. While people are advocating that Sam shit or get off the pot because we can’t have Dean sad. The double standard makes me crazy.
I would have to disagree with your statement that the arrangement was working for Sam. I don’t know if it’s a generational (I’m 50-ish) or gender thing, but I have a different understanding of what forgiveness means. Most of the responses are looking for Sam to take a pound of flesh before forgiving Dean. Grabbed the following definition of forgiveness off of Wikipedia –
[i]
“Forgiveness is the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense, lets go of negative emotions such as vengefulness, with an increased ability to wish the offender well. Forgiveness is different from condoning (failing to see the action as wrong and in need of forgiveness), excusing (not holding the offender as responsible for the action), pardoning (granted by a representative of society, such as a judge), forgetting (removing awareness of the offense from consciousness), and reconciliation (restoration of a relationship). In certain contexts, forgiveness is a legal term for absolving or giving up all claims on account of debt, loan, obligation or other claims.”[/i]
Given that, even with requests by some responders telling me to change my comment, I stand by my initial statement that Sam needed to make a decision as to whether he could forgive Dean. And as far as whether or not Dean has forgiven Sam or not, and I happen to disagree with your assessment, it is not relevant to this discussion. These are not bratty 12 year old kids who had an argument, with both refusing to apologize until the other one apologizes first. These are grown men and, even if you think Dean hasn’t forgiven Sam, Sam can make a decision to be the bigger person and forgive his brother.
I think sam had already demonstrated forgiveness, maybe not total forgiveness, but I certainly believe that sam had forgiven dean as much as he could given that dean still hadn’t acknowledged sam’s feelings at any time. see, I think sam has been the bigger man. I just think that sam’s forgiveness came in small doses. there was more than one thing to forgive dean for ….so while it’s my belief that sam had shown signs of forgiveness for dean’s act of possession, it seems that it was a little harder for him to forgive the lying.
if sam hadn’t had any understanding regarding what dean had done to him, sam would never have walked into that impala in sharp teeth. the very fact that sam stayed with his brother indicates to me that there has been some forgiveness and there exists some understanding on sam’s part. but it’s not so black and white and it’s not so easy to dismiss how the lying inevitably resulted in kevin’s death by sam’s hand. there is much conflict within sam. on the one hand he is hurt and angry and i’d say shaken to the very core that his brother has done what sam deems to be the unthinkable. dean has done this through trickery and deceit and he’s kept the lies ongoing for months and months…..these lies that ultimately resulted in the death of kevin and others by sam’s hands. no matter what dean says, the burden of guilt, per sam’s perspective, lies with him. sam’s the one who can’t get the picture out of his head. he’s the one who gets a replay night after night. does it really come as a surprise? i mean sam had nightmares for months after jess died.
it’s not so easy to dismiss dean’s lying. had dean told sam the truth earlier on, kevin may very well have still ended up dead, but it wouldn’t have been by sams hands. kevin’s death weighs heavy on sam and it’s this weight he bears that makes it harder to just forgive and forget the lying and the secrets. secrets ruin relationships. it seems to be the crux of the matter for sam. this is where it’s harder for him to forgive dean…perhaps because he’s too engulfed in hurt, guilt and anger. that’s not to say the forgiveness for the lying won’t eventually come…..and i don’t think it should come too easily….there is an ultimate lesson to be learned here….if dean gets a free pass for his actions, he’ll only repeat them down the line…sam standing firm here is not out of pettiness…it’s out of necessity. if dean is too easily forgiven, especially given that he made no effort in seeking forgiveness in the first place, then he’ll never change. he’ll lie again, he’ll be secretive again….what’s to stop him? it’s not like anyone holds him accountable ….i am going to use this as an example: it would be like the wife who easily forgives her husband for cheating….she didn’t make it hard on him…she forgave him just like that, no need for him to do anything, ….so what do you think that cheating husband will do the next time he gets the chance….he’s going to cheat on his easy going wife again….sometimes you have to take a tough love stance to save a relationship.
by no means am i saying that sam shouldn’t forgive dean for the lying. of course he should and of course he will….but i believe that forgiveness has to be earned….it can’t be given too easily or too quickly, otherwise dean will just fall into the same old pattern again, and all the suffering will have been for naught.
short story long…..i do think that sam has forgiven dean for what he did…i think the very fact that sam has always been by dean’s side proves that. but sam is still hurt. he’s still angry …and he’s still suffering a trauma….his feelings are both understandable and acceptable to this fangirl. i don’t think he’s yet been able to forgive dean for the lying…but that’s not to say given time he won’t. i still don’t think there has been resolution to this particular issue, but i think it’s coming soon. i’m just satisfied that dean died knowing that sam loves him….it’s just sad to know that dean died with regret regarding his actions….which is another reason why dean needs to understand that the lying and the secrets are what’s destructive….because if he had been honest with sam in the first place, then i really don’t think dean would’ve died with any regret at all….
I’ll have to agree with E and Jo here in a way. Sam had and has every right to be angry and he can also love his brother more than anything while he is being angry. Was he punishing Dean a little? Well yeah, but Dean kind of deserved it for the months of lying. That isn’t going to stop Sam from trying to protect his brother however he can.
The both brother passive-aggressiveness during the second half of this season rubbed me the wrong way. It wasn’t in keeping with the characters established in the early seasons. As Elle2 pointed out, they used to talk to each other. Yes, reluctantly, but they did talk. Usually it was because Sam pushed until Dean gave in or other characters weighed in with their advice and they listened. Sometimes their anger at each other came out in physical fights which seemed to work, too. They cleared the air, at least. But, this season they had advice, they had examples, but they did not talk or fight it out. AARGH!! It was very aggravating! And, the thing is, if they had talked at some point and been on the same damn page, the Mark of Cain story line could have still happened.
For example, suppose Dean didn’t walk away, suppose he apologized for lying and explained about Gadreel threatening to leave the healing job unfinished and after a brief time-out to process it all, Sam understood and forgave him? But suppose that Sam’s nightmares about killing Kevin and the other innocents Gadreel killed kept Sam from sleeping and the final healing process took longer and Dean took that guilt upon himself? He goes to a bar to clear his head and who does he meet, but Crowley?They work out a deal. Crowley will help Dean with finding and killing Gadreel if Dean helps him with his Abbadon problem. Crowley could even even point out that she is unfinished Winchester business. And, he did help get the angel out of Sam. Dean agrees to take on the Mark and descends into darkness. Sam wouldn’t have been able to help, but he’d have been at Dean’s side. How much more horribly sad would have the season finale been?!
I know, I know, it’s all water under the bridge. Season 9 is over and done and it’s time to look forward to Season 10. Hurry up, Season 10!!
Wouldn’t it be great if somewhere in an episode the writers put in a line that the MoL library now included both Bobby’s and the Campbell family libraries, including Samuel Colt’s diary?! I’d hate to think those legacies of knowledge were lost. Oh, and John Winchester’s storage lockers of supernatural stuff along with Dean’s first sawed off shotgun and Sam’s trophy?! That would be cool! Maybe they could even have a collection of hunters’ journals – like John’s, Elkins’, and others – since they were the “modern” men of letters? They could refer to them all during a particularly puzzling case. Maybe thank Garth for collecting them all. It would be a great way to acknowledge the history of the show. It’s just a thought. Maybe somewhere in all that information there’s a cure for being a werewolf and Garth could go back to being the nerve center of the hunter network. Some one needs to do it.
Hmmm…I do like your version much better. I have also wondered about all the books and letters, artifacts and diaries. Are they all there at the bunker? Johns stuff at his locker isn’t. Seems like a huge oversight boys….
On another thread I said just about the same thing. Imagine how this season could have played out if, after Gadreel was forced out of Sam that Dean took off and in a fit of grief took on the MoC. Then later, when Sam found out he could have NOT said all those hurtful things and instead showed Dean he was punishing himself and forced his brother to talk they way he used to in the early days. Then they could have gone back to the bunker and talked about what had gone on, fought about it? Maybe Sam could have been stubborn and insisted that he never wanted Dean to do something like that again and Dean could have counter argued that he couldn’t let Sam die…all with mountains of angst and perhaps a few man tears culminating in an epic angstfest for the midseason finale. Then they could have come to some kind of mutual understanding of what each other was feeling and found some common ground. THEN Sam could have gotten concerned about the Mark and Dean could have expressed regret for being so rash and then the two of them could have worked TOGETHER to try and find a solution. Imagine Dean’s despair as he slowly realizes that he’s turing into something he doesn’t want to be, the fear he feels, and he would have been able to turn TO Sam to express that fear. And Sam could have grown more and more afraid for his brother, becoming increasingly desperate to find a solution as he sees Dean slip further and further away. The finale would then have had SOOOOOO much more impact; a great tragedy that they had so desperately tried to avoid on to fail in the final hour. Now THAT would have been a season worth watching! Too bad TPTB didn’t see this type of potential.
Sorry, E, if I seemed to take your ideas from another thread. It wasn’t my intention. We must be of like minds on this issue.
I’m also not saying that Sam should have forgiven Dean quickly. It would have taken him a few episodes to process his hurt and his anger, to think and to remember Gadreel’s memories, including his threats to Dean and Dean’s speech in the bunker asking for understanding and forgiveness as he tried to warn Sam and get him to cast the angel out. I just disliked the passive aggressiveness in the behavior of both brothers in the second part of the season. It struck me as being out of character and immature for men who have been so close and through so much together.
I agree with you about the finale. It would have meant much more to me if they had been truly brothers working together in trying to reverse the effects of the Mark. And, it would make Sam’s desperate measures to do it on his own in the upcoming season more meaningful and Demon Dean’s coldness to Sam that much worse.
Anyway, I’ve said enough, maybe too much. Onward to Season 10!
Who the hell is BppkLady?! I’m usually a much better proofreader than that! :p
[quote]Sorry, E, if I seemed to take your ideas from another thread. It wasn’t my intention. We must be of like minds on this issue.
[/quote]
Not at all! It’s more of a “great minds think alike!” type of thing. And I further agree with you on the passive aggressive crap… it’s sooo tiresome; what are they teenaged girls? I was especially unhappy to hear Dean reverting to his cheap shot one-liners ala season 8 like in A4 when he sniped at Sam “Yeah, I know, you wouldn’t have done the same thing,” at Sam after he’d been half drained of blood. It was incredibly petty and immature. And since when has Sam ‘withheld his affections’ as punishment before? Never that I am aware of. I basically hated the whole set up to their “conflict” it seemed so contrived and unnatural. I think the show’s motto from here on out should be WWKMD – What Would Kim Manners Do? He was always able to take just about any type of script and ground it in a realistic portrayal that made sense for these two guys. I miss his touch.
i agree with you and jo for the most part as well. i get that people want the boys to make up…but to belittle what’s happened between them is not only disrespectful of the characters, imo, but also unrealistic. i think what’s been forgotten is that sam experienced a traumatic experience. i’m not even referring to the violation of both his mind and his body….i’m talking about the fact that sam killed kevin. it’s not like kevin was evil and sam had no choice. it’s not like kevin went bonkers and sam was defending himself or dean. sam had no control over what happened. when he learned what he did, and the fact that he kept seeing it over and over….i have to ask….does anyone get over a trauma so quickly? is there a specific time clock that says time’s up…get over it now. do you tell a victim of any crime or any accident…just get over it. general question….what if someone out in fandom land accidently ran over a pedestrian and killed them? would the person who caused the fatal accident just be able to get over it? is it fair if six months from the time it happened that person was still hurt and in pain, would it be fair for someone to tell them to get over it…would it be so easy for that person to get that picture out of their heads? this is just an example, but i hope you understand what i’m trying to get at.
i think under the circumstances, sam handled himself pretty damn well. yeah, he couldn’t emotionally connect with dean, he kept him at arms length, but he never stopped caring about him, worrying about him or loving him….sam suffered in silence, that’s really nothing new….did he keep his pain to himself because he saw it futile to even tell dean because of dean’s stance that he did the right thing and would do it again? did he keep it to himself because dean already was wallowing in self pity and sam didn’t want to add to it? or was sam just so hurt and angry and consumed with pain that he wanted to punish his brother just enough to get dean to open up and engage…so they could just have it out.. i really don’t know the answer. what i do know is that it went down the way it did because that’s the story the writers want to tell….dean’s downfall into demonhood…the consequences of his actions… hitting rock bottom so that the only way to go is up.
i believe the rocky road that led us here is ultimately the lesson to be learned. because things didn’t go down the way we the fans would’ve preferred, because the opposite in fact happened….this is the result….now the boys have to deal with this result….and hopefully they will come to realize how it was that they ended up here and learn from it….this is how not to behave…..and dean is turned back, during the healing process they will come to understand and accept ea. other…they will learn from their failings and they will build a stronger foundation…this is what i believe will happen and i’m excited for it. 😉
i really think, based on carver’s interviews and the way s8 and s9 has played out, i really do believe that carver is trying to change the old dysfunctional relationship into a stronger, more mature one. i know i’m one of the very few who have faith in carver, but i do think he’s trying to get these boys to relate as the men they are today instead of the boys they were when we started. it seems to me the boys have gotten older, but the way in which they relate…it’s still the relationship of older brother/parent/younger brother/child. i know i’m alone here, but i really do think that it’s time for the boys to relate in a more adult, more equal, more trusting manner. i really want the brothers to finally accept who they are, both personally and with regards to ea. other. I want them to finally understand the other’s perspective and accept it. i want them to stop hating themselves. i want there to be equality and honesty and a stronger brother bond….and i know that a lot of you out there don’t like the route that’s being taken to get there…..but i really do think it’s necessary.
Nappi, I am on the same route. I know people would have wanted the story to be written “their way” but that is dangerous path to go to. It is a path that will never be your liking because someone else is writing it and it is never what you like it to be. Like was written above I think that would have been also awesome way to tell the story but it wasn’t how the writers wanted it so like Booklady said time to move on.
Dean would never apologize for saving Sam but everything else he was sorry about and blaming himself. He didn’t let himself scot free… How would I explain this… and I also think the “I would do it again” was because of the confrontation they had that time. I saw it more he was saying that for saving Sam and not thinking the rest. Of course they need to work it out. I am not saying it needs to happen right this second because it wouldn’t be solved that fast. Also I think that either of the brothers didn’t like “the partners only” idea like it was shown later. Sam tried to get Dean to talk but well, Dean is not good with that and then the MoC turned everything worse. Sam always ran to Dean’s rescue like Dean to Sam’s. Actions spoke louder than their communication that was totally not there.
Sam still wanted to be by his brothers side but Dean didn’t see it. I saw that Dean was actually voted to be a tv series character that the most needed to go to a psychiatrist. And I really agree on that. In a loving way because Dean is in a mess. Sam would need less but it would be good for him to let out some stuff too. Both of the boys have flaws. They are not perfect but they do love one another. Dean is actually the only real family Sam has had the longest and the only one left and Sam is Dean’s. That is actually very sad thing for both of them.
– Lilah
I do not want a ‘story’ written my way I wanted a story that took Sam into account. Did I expect Dean to give a apology or even see it ? not in a month of Sundays but the problem that arose is that it it is Sam’s reaction that became the bone of contention for many not Dean’s original action.
[quote]Dean would never apologize for saving Sam but everything else he was sorry about and blaming himself. He didn’t let himself scot free… [/quote]
This is part of the problem though. Dean may have been sorry, but he never said so TO SAM, and he was the one who needed to hear it. Hell, I needed to hear him say it to Sam too. I also have a big problem with Dean’s tendency to “not let himself off scott free.” It isn’t for Dean to decide to punish himself.. he shouldn’t get the luxury of punishing himself, he should let the people he’s wronged decide what that punishment should be and then accept it like a man, like Sam did in pretty much all of season 5 and for the second half of season 6 after he found out about what SoullessSam had done. I find it hugely problematic that Dean bailed out on Sam because he was too afraid of what his brother might say to him, only to go off and find his own punishment as thought that is going to fix anything or make things with his brother right. It didn’t. The more noble thing to do would have been to stay and face Sam. The writers could have easily figured out another way for Dean to feel that he had to accept the MoC so that the story could still have gone in the same direction with the same outcome, and I probably would have admired him more for it if it hadn’t been his own version of self-flagellation.
I agree nappi… and I like your scenario about the pedestrian. How long IS too long to take to get over a trauma? What is the correct way to respond to that trauma? People are putting Sam’s reaction under a formula for “acceptability” and giving him a deadline, and it’s totally unfair to him. Furthermore, the character suffers constantly from a lack of perspective. We don’t know how he’s feeling about things, we assume he’s in pain and traumatized, but they don’t have him say so and they don’t’ show it so many fans won’t even consider that he’s feeling these things while others are forced to create head canon to fill out the missing parts. Furthermore Dean is suffering from perspective overload, we know every minute detail, we hear again and again and again how he’s feeling and we see scene after scene after scene of heartfelt talks, affecting monologues and soulful looks designed to drum up our sympathies for him (although, to be honest, Dean’s overexposure has had the complete opposite effect on me, I am beyond tired and ‘over’ the endless bouts of manpain and self pity to the point that I began to roll my eyes when I saw we would be getting yet another round of martyrdom and self flagellation – really he’s worse than a medieval saint when it comes to self punishment). It all comes down to a lack of balance in the writing which is well covered ground.
I had another scenario about how Sam must feel about what Dean did to him using your pedestrian imagery nappi. Imagine that the pedestrian killed in a crosswalk by a car was your 13 year old daughter walking home from school drama practice. Imagine that the driver was an habitual drunk with a suspended license and 20 prior drunk driving convictions. Imagine that he blamed the girl for not looking when she crossed the road and said that the accident was her fault. Imagine that he denied he did anything wrong, says he won’t’ change his ways, he’ll do it again, and people better just stay out of his way or suffer the consequences. Could you so easily forgive someone so unrepentant? Should you be expected to? But what if the driver was devastated by what he’d done, used that incident to get sober, apologized profusely to the family, took his punishment like a man, went on to lecture to teenagers about the dangers of drunk driving and ultimately turned his life around because of what he’d done?… could you forgive him then? Because Dean won’t’ even acknowledge Sam’s pain, basically said that Kevin’s death was worth the price of saving Sam, claims he’s right and that Sam should be grateful and just let it go makes me not want to forgive him either, so I can totally see Sam’s perspective here. Had Dean said something along the lines of “I’m sorry I hurt you, I’m sorry Kevin’s dead, but I can’t be sorry you’re alive, Sammy, I just can’t. You’re my brother and it’s not in me to not save you, I’ll always save you if I can.” I could see Sam softening his stance a bit. But instead he got “I saved your ass back there,” “I did the right thing, and I’d do it again,” “I don’t know what the hell you want anymore,” and “Yeah, I know, you wouldn’t do the same for me.” Ugh. No wonder Sam wasn’t in a forgiving mood; I’m not either.
Fighting isn’t rational so probably things that Dean said wasn’t either. And sorry as a person who has lost relatives because of drunk driving I will not even going to answer about that example by anything else that I don’t see Dean in same light. It is easy to see things only from one point of view which mirrors to everything else being bad that is not that view. Anyway with the above answer to my earlier post lets allow ourselves to agree to disagree.
– Lilah
And that gets used to excuse and explain Dean while saying that Sam should just forgive Dean or leave forever.
Didn’t say that in my post and downwards Leah’s answer is pretty good on this. So that is fine by me. 🙂
– Lilah
Your analogy makes no sense. It is comparing apples and oranges. Sam is not like an innocent 13 yr. old crossing the street and Dean wasn’t like a careless drunk driver. The original comment said Sam needed to decide to either forgive or move on. It did not say he SHOULD forgive, just stop riding the fence. It has nothing to do with whether Sam deserves or will get an apology. All it is saying is 8 episodes of watching them work together under these circumstances, well for some of us it seemed ridiculous. It is JC ‘s pattern to have the big bro moment in the season finale and we all knew that was coming but it would have have been nice to have had some real movement in between in any direction.
Dean was and is unrepentant. That makes it pretty hard to forgive.
As far is goes isn’t he a demon now?
but how is that in any connection to E’s statement.
E said Dean was and “is” unrepentant. All I meant was that Dean “is” a demon right now so repentant is not going to happen. Hopefully after Dean is saved or cured or whatever there will be the long awaited talk, reconnection, reconciliation or whatever is going to happen between these two.
Hi E, my only minor input here is I do think Dean was very sorry for all of it and was was regretful over everything that unfolded due to his actions.. The ONLY thing IMO he was and always will be, is unapologetic that Sam is alive. I honestly think that Dean was intending to apologize to Sam in the finale and Sam said “I know” because he does know Dean. Also how many times did Dean start to talk to Sam about things and was interrupted by Gad or Sam or impending death. Sam wasn’t the only one struck by sentence interrruptus this season. 🙂
For you and others Dean is unrepentant and hard to forgive but I don’t necessarily think that is the way that Sam is being portrayed as feeling. You want Dean to be punished, repentant and apologize profusely but that didn’t happen and no matter how much you wish for it or comment on it, it probably isn’t going to happen. My point was that watching them work together with no forward movement until the finale didn’t work for me and apparently some others. Your over the top analogy was offensive to me. End of this discussion between us please.
I’ll take apologizing and actually meaning it WITHOUT telling Sam it’s all Sam’s fault.
I’m not sure how that is a response to my post…………..but I’ll just say what the Rolling Stones’ song said, “You can’t always get what you want.” Maybe it will happen in S10 but we will all just have to wait and see.
[i]You want Dean to be punished, repentant and apologize profusely but that didn’t happen and no matter how much you wish for it or comment on it, it probably isn’t going to happen.[/i]
I was trying to make it clear that although I want Dean to apologize legitimately I am not asking that he be punished or even apologize profusely. Repentant would go along with a REAL he means it apology. And yes, I am painfully aware that Dean will never apologize to Sam. As soon as he is undemoned he will be all over Sam for not saving him the right way. You are misinterpreting what I said.
Quoting Percysowner “And yes, I am painfully aware that Dean will never apologize to Sam. As soon as he is undemoned he will be all over Sam for not saving him the right way.”
I don’t believe that will happen. I think he will be grateful and also be happy to be back with Sam. If Sam puts his own life in jeopardy, that may make Dean mad. If Sam does very questionable things to save him, that may also bother him. I know that would be hypocritical but Dean would not think he (Dean) would be worth it! I don’t think Dean foresaw what his actions would cause this year. He doesn’t get past SAVE SAM. Yeah I know I could be wrong, lets discuss it in a few months when the season actually starts, but I will always try and see and anticipate the best in both of these characters. These guys will never be entirely on the same page. I also refuse to see Sam in the negative light that some fans see him in. It makes my SPN experience so much better.
On further consideration having Dean be annoyed with Sam does seem like a typical writers way of making sure the issues between them are continually bubbling on the back burner for the sake of angst. If so, I hope it is short-lived and they will reach an understanding of how hard it is (for either of them) to see the other slipping away from them without doing something.
It didn’t work for me either. Honestly, by the 2nd episode, I was ready for the brothers to split up permanently, and I am a die-hard b-bro fan. I had never in all my years of viewing wanted the brothers apart as much as I did post-TP. Either one could have left, and I would have been fine. That “partners” crap was just that to me: CRAP.
I didn’t see Sam “riding the fence”. He was clear that he wasn’t willing to be Dean’s brother as long as this problem was between them. He worked with Dean as a partner which is what he said he would do. His position was clear to me. Dean just refused to see it because he didn’t want to admit he was wrong. He new he was and admitted as much in 9.01 when he said Sam would never consent to being possessed. Instead he said he’d do it again. I don’t blame Sam one bit for keeping Dean at arm’s length. The onus is on Dean to recognize and admit that he was wrong.
I didn’t see sam as riding the fence either. I actually saw it as sam being very patient. As was stated in the above posts, sam does know his brother and he knows how to get to dean just as much as dean knows how to get to sam and when it’s necessary, the boys will pull that card. the way I saw it, sam ‘s comment about being partners came right after dean had said they need to go back to work and just put a few w’s in the win column. sam, understandably couldn’t …he said it, I wish I could but not this time…something was broken…and I see sam’s point. for all that’s ever gone on between them, the one constant has been sam’s unconditional trust in his brother. even after he found out about amy and benny…sam’s trust in his brother never waivered….then unfortunately, dean did the unthinkable to sam and now that unconditional trust has been broken. for the first time I believe it doesn’t exist and I honestly think that it’s been hard on sam. still he’s not willing to give up….his comment about being partners, but if you want to be brothers…was an obvious attempt at getting dean to try to deal with what’s happened and not just wish it away. I thought that the very fact that sam made a few attempts at engaging dean, though unsuccessfully was his way to get the ball rolling… dean’s stance that he did the right thing and he’d do it again….I believe was his way of avoiding dealing with the problem at hand. or maybe it’s just that he didn’t really get what the real problem was. still, sam never walked away. he didn’t leave his brother…he didn’t give up…he didn’t say well my brother aint apologizing so i’m going to just call it quits….I still believe that sam was dealing with his own pain, but still holding out that his brother would eventually break….would finally deal with sam.. and to be honest, I think sam was right and eventually it would’ve gotten to dean…..it’s just that the whole blade thing got in the way of all that. ….
I guess the way I saw it… it wasnt that sam couldn’t make a decision as to whether he should forgive dean or not and that’s why he tried to retain a partnership. the way I saw it, sam was not giving up on his brother or his relationship. he was patiently waiting for dean to start dealing with everything that’s happened between them …. I really do believe that one of them would’ve eventually cracked. I really don’t think things were being dragged out either. I’ve seen dean pissed at sam for longer and most definitely untrusting of sam for longer….sam was angry for a total of like 10 minutes …the rest of the time he was just doing his damnedest trying to deal with all that’s happened. sam was very conflicted. sam isn’t unaware that dean did what he did out of love, not deep down. but there’s the lying and lack of trust in sam. there’s sam’s hurt and guilt over kevin. sam is dealing with a lot of different emotions and sorting out those emotions takes time. sam had no idea that dean was on a clock with the moc and the blade. it’s easy for the audience to feel things are taking too long when we know of the impending dire consequences….but for the character….as far as sam knew, there is no time clock on trying to save his relationship with his brother…;)
It’s kinda hard to get out of handcuffs if you don’t have anything to pick the lock, well short of breaking your thumbs.
Alright listen up, I’m about to bring the knowledge here yo!
…
Nah just kidding. I’ve been skimming a lot of this debate as they come in my emails so I’m just throwing a guy’s perspective out there. At the very least get ya’ll yelling at me instead of each other. 😉
So as the observation goes: girls talk face to face, boys talk side to side. No real idea why (maybe some ancient code about facing enemies and allies are by your side) but it’s just common enough to be a stereotype that if you want to get a guy to talk, you get “besides” him – road trip, working on a project, tales around the campfire etc. Those are times guys are more likely to communicate openly and friendly while face-to-face is often combative. Hence in this episode Sam & Dean’s warmest moment is when they’re side by side watching the computer (or was it the TV) while the Ghostfacers’ relationship falls apart while they talk face to face. Likewise everything in this season is designed to keep the bros apart. They’re in the bunker, not driving along the road where they would end up talking. They don’t have any ongoing projects (like fixing a car or remodeling sections of the bunker) and practically every hunt leaves little to no time for them to battlefield-banter (mostly because 1 of them is unconscious). With all that stacking up their only hope left is to just up and fight it out like way back at the close of S4. Guys also need catharsis by action during intense emotion (hence why we like to hit things while mad or screw while in love). Dean wants Sam to take a swing at him because not only does Dean think he deserves it, but then they can begin healing the brotherly bond again.
BUT there is a bit of a problem which keeps Sam from dishing out the ass-kicking. See, guys also can stand and forgive almost anything that’s done to them, we have a lot harder time forgiving something done to someone that is cared about (hence: your best friend is more likely to forgive you trying to kill him than if you tried to kill his girl). So is it all about Kevin? Well… let’s back up a minute. Consider for a moment what if Gadreel had been perfectly on the up and up. Or what if it had actually been Castiel’s angel form shoved into Sam (then we could finally have an alliance between the Wincest and Destiel shippers). Would that have been as bad?
Both brothers have a slightly different priority sort. Dean’s (obviously) is family – comes first, all else be damned. Sam’s is more mission oriented, willing to do almost anything to accomplish the goal. The end of S1 was Sam’s moment of understanding Dean (by not shooting John) while the end of S5 was Dean’s moment to understand Sam (and letting his little bro go to save the world). Thus we reach the beginning of the season where Dean does whatever it takes to save family, when previous episode Sam was prepared to do whatever it took to save the world.
If we consider the SPN world as real (and not a bunch of writers slacking off this season) then the issue isn’t quite the angel inside. After all these years Sam has to know that Dean will do ANYTHING to save his life (making the deal with Death was proof enough) and they probably don’t even bother with something like a living will. No when Sam walked out of that hospital he had to know Dean did SOMETHING to save him, but for most of the season Dean wouldn’t tell him what, which the longer he doesn’t, the more frightened Sam becomes of just what was done. He barely survived the time Dean sold his soul to save Sam, a growing dread haunts him earlier in the season that this time it might be worse.
It all comes to a head with Kevin’s death. Both have been hit hard with their priorities: Dean-family and Sam-mission. Open and shut case that Dean’s priorities screwed them over, right? Ah but here’s the catch I talked about earlier: Sam can’t decide if Dean was wrong or not. Kevin’s dead, that’s a big black mark on the whole endeavor right there, but remember that Sam has two other memories floating around in his head of that time: resurrecting Castiel and Charlie. Both deaths happened independent of whether Sam lived/died at the end of S8. Both are family and critically important to the missions. On a strict balance perspective, Sam’s possession killed 1, saved 2 netting a 1 life credit.
Thus, what if the angel in Sam had been a good one? He and Dean would probably have their cleansing fight and then move on past it (Dean taking the beating would be his apology). But with Kevin dead and Metatron’s plans potentially underway the negatives and positives of the possession are almost equal. Sam’s not just angry but conflicted in trying to figure out whether it was all worth it or not. The run in with the ghostfacers adds more to consider for Sam. Thus when he hesitates at the door, he’s weighing whether to just have it out already or not.
This is also what’s behind the MoC. If Sam had the priority sort Dean did, then ridding Dean of the Mark would be priority one as soon as Sam saw it. However the Mark is needed for the mission so Sam leaves it on Dean, a subtle payback. Their thoughts: Dean-“I will let you be possessed because family always comes first.” Sam-“I will let you be damned because some things are more important than us.”
There now turn your flames to me. 😉
Actually Nate , I really appreciate the male perspective on this and it all makes a lot of sense. I do think many of us (not all) are women and we do tend to see and want things to be resolved from our own perspective. We want tears, sincere heart felt apologies and lots of bro hugs which in reality isn’t probably realistic. Guys seem to have an unspoken understanding of each other sometimes. Which is not to say apologies aren’t deserved. Or that betrayals didn’t happen. I just don’t think there are ever going to be many chick-flick moments of resolution between these guys. I think Dean starting to say something about “the last few month”s and Sam stopping him with “I know” may speak volumes between them.
Honestly Nate I am just happy to see some humor up in here yo!
The face to face vs side by side thing is interesting. I wonder if it is in the DNA. You know like certain animals like primates and wolves take looking straight in eyes as a kind of a challenge or an act of aggression. Huh. Anybody know anything about that? Also I have noticed when dealing with men in my job that the less said about any conflict the better, they want us to say our piece and move on, not keep hashing it over! 🙂
I do know male brains and female brains are wired differently when it comes to verbal processing (among other differences). Just from experience I think it has something to do with threats, i.e. if a wolf or bear or something is threatening the camp you want to face it until it’s gone or dead. Football’s probably another good example: you face the opposing team while your teammates are to the left and right of you.
Thanks, Nate, for your perspective!
Just to chime in with my own experiences, I had the most open and honest conversations with my dad when we were canoeing. I think he felt safest talking to me when he didn’t have to see my reactions. We spent hours on the river, talking and paddling. Maybe that’s what Sam and Dean need to do? Get out on the water and talk, but not see each others’ face. Intentionally getting the other person wet with poor paddling or tipping the canoe while bringing it to shore is also good payback 😉
[quote]After all these years Sam has to know that Dean will do ANYTHING to save his life (making the deal with Death was proof enough)…. No when Sam walked out of that hospital he had to know Dean did SOMETHING to save him, [/quote]the problem in this is i do not know how deep gadreel’s manipulation was.This was not a problem with Sam,Dean or Gadreel..the story was not clear in that aspect.
Oh don’t even get me started on all the story mishaps this season had. Others will testify I won’t shut up about it. lol 😉
I liked your take on the problem between Sam and Dean and the way guys talk to each other. That is so very true. My only quibble is that Castiel and Charlie might not have needed saving if Sam had died. Dean, in his grief would have probably hooked up with Cas long before so his encounter with April would probably not have happened. Sam was the one who found the ancient computer that ended up calling in Charlie. If Sam was dead than Charlie would have never come to the bunker (at least for that purpose) and then needed saving. So Sam was justified in his reasoning that there seemed to be no upside to him being alive. There did seem to be a domino affect that might not have happened if he had died. So Kevin and Abner would still be alive theoretically and Castiel and Charlie might never have needed saving if Sam had died. And yes Kevin still would have been a target for Metatron but entry into the bunker would have been harder. I doubt that Dean would have let a random angel in and since the angels couldn’t teleport angels had no access. I could go further and say that if Sam had died closing the gates of hell Crowley would be locked up or dead (or at least cured). If Sam had died in the hospital Dean may have killed Crowley in a fit of rage. At the very least Crowley would still be locked up in the bunker. Dean never gets the MOC and never turns into a demon. The Butterfly Affect.
But now I am going to have to observe with my eyes how guys stand when they are talking to each other…very interesting.
actually sam didn’t only kill kevin. sam/gad went on some sort of killing bender as I recall. so not unlike being soulless, possession caused sam to hurt others beyond his control. i think, given sam’s experience in the past, that possession and it’s end result where he was concerned, has resulted in death by his own hands, something he’s been forced to live with. this is a responsibility he bears, and the significance i think is that he bears this burden, not of his own doing but by decisions made by someone else. here again it goes back to sam’s lack of control, a life long issue for sam, because for most of his life sam was ruled by others….even when he thought he was off at college living the way he wanted, free of the family business, he learned that he was being manipulated the entire time. his teachers, his friends, his prom date….sam was always being manipulated. i can’t help but feel that sam knowing that dean, tricking sam into angel possession, plays a big part on the hurt and disbelief. while, as i stated kevin is a bump in the road to instant forgiveness, i don’t think that kevin’s death is the core problem here. as stated in thinman, sam said to ed that secrets destroy relationships. imho, this is more about trust than anything else and dean’s lack of trust in sam. this lack of trust dean has in sam leads to sam’s loss of control. sam threw a comment out to dean …it would’ve been nice to be given the choice. whether or not sam would’ve gone with dean’s plan to live, that’s up for debate, but given how sam feels about his brother, given that sam had chose to put together his broken psyche because he won’t leave his brother out there, given that he stopped the trials because dean begged him to, given that sam always chooses dean when he’s had ample opportunity to call it quits, it is my strong belief that had dean told sam the truth, sam just may have allowed for possession..had it been on his own terms…..the problem here is, sam wasn’t allowed the chance to choose for himself.
as for the opinion of subtle payback, i highly disagree. i don’t believe sam thought ” i will let you be damned because some things are more important than us”. first off dean went off on his own because he couldn’t face his brother. it had more to do with his inability to look his brother in the face as you say, then it had to do with dean’s decision to save sam and his self proclaimed declaration that he’s poison. that was just dean going to his defense mechanism of playing the victim so that he wouldn’t be seen as the “bad” guy for lack of a better term. i’m not saying dean was bad, it’s just how i feel he sees himself. dean put it upon himself to inflict his own sentence, instead of literally being judged by his peer…his brother. there is a fear in dean, issues of abandonment, his need for control that also drives him…it’s not just as black and white as family coming first. dean has all too often messed with the natural order, playing God in way with other people’s lives…..making decisions for others that weren’t his to make. the issue with dean goes way deeper than just “family comes first”… no offense, but family didnt’ seem to come first for dean when he sent sam that vile text or when he spent the first half of s8 claiming benny was more of a brother, not only with harsh words by with his actions. i’m just saying, as with all humans, and i mean all humans, sometimes it’s just a matter of our own selves coming first. sometimes it’s a matter of self preservation….so in as much as dean will always put family on top of the priority list, i still say dean tops the list. as we all do. it’s how we survive. dean’s actions are not only driven by his feelings towards his brother, his actions are also driven his feelings towards himself.
as for sam letting dean be damned, i can’t disagree with that statement enough. firstly when sam first noticed the moc it was in sharp teeth. he asked what it was and dean told him he got it from cain. sam did not know that dean was damned. sam spent the next few minutes not getting ditched by dean, who lied to sam once again, as though lying hadn’t caused dean enough problems. then the episode pretty much went into the case. pretty much from the end of sharp teeth on, sam was dealing with his hurt and pain, while trying to maintain his relationship with his brother. post thinman, sam’s focus was the blade. it was the blade in dean’s hands that was the obvious problem. deans’ behavior towards sam was nothing sam hasnt’ experienced before with dean, so there really was no connection shown to us that sam would assume dean was acting ooc. given sam’s past experience, he did begin to sense something was wrong, but show made it pretty clear that it had to do with the blade itself. it was the blade that wielded the power. so sams’ focus was on this. at no point did show indicate that sam knew or even guessed that the moc was damning dean…..hell, as i recall from every interview iv’e seen so far, sam doesnt’ even know that dean is a demon. crowely is the one that let dean be damned. while i submit, that sam understood that dean was the only one who can kill abbadon and let dean do what he had to do as she was in fact a threat to all humankind, i don’t believe that sam was aware of the true power of the blade. once dean killed abbadon, sam tried to keep the blade and his brother apart. he started to realize that the blade was more than just a weapon….sam was coming around….his focus on his own pain was lessening and his focus on his brother was becoming forefront. if anyone knew about dean being damned it was cas and cas said nothing to no one. it wasnt’ until dean killed gad, to both cas and sam’s surprise that they both realized that dean was more than acting different. sam locked dean in the dungeon by the way….it was dear Crowley who let dean out. sam raced to find dean. sam knew enough at this point that dean had to handled carefully. so unlike dean who totally blew the way to handle sam back in s4, sam allowed dean to believe that he was going along with what dean needed to do…why do think dean really suckerpunched sam? dean knew sam was just appeasing him. that sam wouldn’t let dean do what he had to do…..just like sam did back when he took over the trials. sam never wanted dean to be hurt, let alone die…..and he certainly didnt’ go in with the attiude of letting his brother be damned as payback.
while i submit that the way guys talk to ea. other, based on what I’ve seen, is pretty accurate, i’d say the last comment you made was in fact your personal opinion and i don’t believe it to be an accurate one. i also dont’ believe it would be the same opinion of every guy who watches the show.
so, as you wish, here is a small fire, now you can roast marshmallows and eat smores to your hearts content.. 🙂
[quote]If we consider the SPN world as real (and not a bunch of writers slacking off this season) then the issue isn’t quite the angel inside. After all these years Sam has to know that Dean will do ANYTHING to save his life (making the deal with Death was proof enough) and they probably don’t even bother with something like a living will. No when Sam walked out of that hospital he had to know Dean did SOMETHING to save him, but for most of the season Dean wouldn’t tell him what, which the longer he doesn’t, the more frightened Sam becomes of just what was done. He barely survived the time Dean sold his soul to save Sam, a growing dread haunts him earlier in the season that this time it might be worse.[/quote]
I don’t think that was shown. As soon as Sam wakes up in the Impala in episode 9.01 I Think I’m Gonna Like It Here, Sam asks Dean what had happened. He comes to accept Dean’s explanation. He doesn’t challenge Dean about what he did to save him because he doesn’t remember needing to be saved. Sam feels something is truly wrong after Vesta tells him that he is pretty much dead inside in episode 9.08 Rock and a Hard Place. However, Sam turns the problem into an internal one. ([i]“What if there is something wrong with me — something…really wrong?” “Why does it have to be something else? It’s always something else. We’re always scraping to find some other explanation when maybe it is… just me.” “I’m a mess, Dean. You know it. And sometimes, I feel like maybe I’m never gonna actually be all right.” “Or this is… just the way I am.”[/i])
[b]9.09 Holy Terror[/b]
[i]Sam: That sign said “Fort Collins, 50 miles.”
Dean: So?
Sam: So, last time I looked, like, 12 seconds ago, uh, Fort Collins was a hundred miles.
Dean (searching for something to say) Well, hey, man, ever since that goddess got her hooks into you, you know—
Sam (getting agitated) No, it’s more than Vesta! I mean, this kind of thing’s been happening to me. Like, like, there are chunks of time just … missing. Like there are times when I’m… not here.
Dean: Well, like I’ve said—
Sam: Yes, the trials. I know. I heard you. I heard you when you said it the last week and the week before that and the week before that.
Dean: Yeah, because … damn straight the trials. They whacked you, man. You’re not up to warp speed yet, okay? But you will be. (Smiles at Sam.) Would I lie?[/i]
I’d say this is the point where Sam really starts to suspect that Dean is not telling him everything. However, it’s the same episode where Gadreel takes control of Sam.
[quote]It all comes to a head with Kevin’s death. Both have been hit hard with their priorities: Dean-family and Sam-mission. Open and shut case that Dean’s priorities screwed them over, right? Ah but here’s the catch I talked about earlier: Sam can’t decide if Dean was wrong or not. Kevin’s dead, that’s a big black mark on the whole endeavor right there, but remember that Sam has two other memories floating around in his head of that time: resurrecting Castiel and Charlie. Both deaths happened independent of whether Sam lived/died at the end of S8. Both are family and critically important to the missions. On a strict balance perspective, Sam’s possession killed 1, saved 2 netting a 1 life credit.[/quote]
I doubt that was the case or otherwise that sort of logic would have been voiced on the show. At least Dean would have brought that up in episode 9.13 The Purge after Sam said, “[i]Please tell me, what is the upside of me being alive?[/i]” (Also Sam was used to kill other vessels.)
[quote]Thus, what if the angel in Sam had been a good one? He and Dean would probably have their cleansing fight and then move on past it (Dean taking the beating would be his apology). But with Kevin dead and Metatron’s plans potentially underway the negatives and positives of the possession are almost equal. Sam’s not just angry but conflicted in trying to figure out whether it was all worth it or not. The run in with the ghostfacers adds more to consider for Sam. Thus when he hesitates at the door, he’s weighing whether to just have it out already or not.[/quote]
Don’t forget that Crowley was freed because Dean needed to save Sam. Sam wanted to kill Crowley since episode 9.02 Devil May Care.
[quote]This is also what’s behind the MoC. If Sam had the priority sort Dean did, then ridding Dean of the Mark would be priority one as soon as Sam saw it. However the Mark is needed for the mission so Sam leaves it on Dean, a subtle payback. Their thoughts: Dean-“I will let you be possessed because family always comes first.” Sam-“I will let you be damned because some things are more important than us.”[/quote]
Wow… Are you really saying that Sam knew Dean was damned but he wasn’t gonna do anything to help Dean because he wanted Dean to be punished to that extent?
[b]9.21 King of the Damned[/b]
[i]Sam: Look…I’m glad it worked out, okay? I am. And I’m glad the Blade gives you strength or calm or whatever, but, Dean, I got to say… I’m starting to think the Blade is doing something else, too.
Dean: Yeah? Like what?
Sam: I don’t know. Like, something to you. Look… I’m thinking until we know for sure that we’re gonna kill off Crowley, why don’t we store the Blade somewhere distant? Lock it up somewhere safe? Okay?
Dean: No.[/i]
[b]9.22 Stairway to Heaven[/b]
[i]Sam: Well, do you think we need the First Blade? Why don’t we just leave that here?
Dean: We talked about this, and we decided that —
Sam: No. In all fairness, we didn’t decide. You did.
Dean: Okay, I decided that a hockey stick that can kill anything might come in handy, so sue me.
Sam: How many times have we been around this block? Magic that powerful comes at a price, and right now we don’t know what that price is.
Dean: I’m fine. I’m fan-friggin’-tastic.
Sam: And I’m glad, honestly. I’m not saying we bury the thing. I’m saying we just save it for when we really need it. Crowley. Metatron. The big boss fights. You don’t have to have it with you all the time, right? I mean, just leave it. Please.
Dean: No problem.
Sam: Thank you.[/i]
[b]9.23 Do You Believe in Miracles?[/b]
[i]Gadreel: Well, Metatron is more powerful than ever, but if Dean has the First Blade and the mark, that might give us our best chance.
Sam: You’re joking, right? An hour ago, we were ready to throw Dean into a padded cell, and now you say he’s our best chance?
Castiel: Hear him out, Sam.
Sam: Oh, right. Excuse me. Sorry, guys. Uh, sorry I’m a little less than eager to hear that our best chance is — is arming the warhead and hoping it hits the mark. This is not a bomb we’re talking about. This is my brother.[/i]
—
[i]Sam: Who you let in the front door in the first place. You tricked me, Dean. And now I’m the one who wakes up in the middle of the night seeing my hands killing Kevin, not you. So, please, when you say you don’t want to explain anything to me, don’t. I get it. And I also get that Metatron has to go. And I know you’re our best shot to do that.
Dean: I’m gonna take my shot, for better or worse.
Sam: I know.
Dean: No matter the consequences.
Sam: I know. But if this is it, we’re gonna do it together.[/i]
—
[i]Dean: Listen to me. It’s better this way.
Sam: What?!
Dean: The Mark. It’s making me into something I don’t want to be.
Sam: Don’t worry about the Mark. We’ll figure out the Mark later. Just hold on, okay? Get you some help.[/i]
I think all of that shows pretty clearly that Sam did not know Dean was damned. The Mark was a way to right what was wrong (Metatron and Crowley etc.) Sam was worried about Dean. It was not a case of tit for tat.
Others have answered this really well Nate. I do have to add that it is not 1 dead 2 alive. Gadreel killed three people in Sam’s body. We may not have cared about Abner and his vessel or the angel who took over the rock star’s vessel (and that person), but if Sam is committed to the bigger picture he would. I also agree that Charlie, at the very least, would most likely not have been in danger if Sam had died. Sam found the computer and realized Charlie could help with it, Dean didn’t think of it. So Charlie probably would not have died. Cas is iffier. If Sam had died, Cas might well have asked Dean to come get him so that Cas could help Dean with the grief. Or he might not have. April found Cas on her own, but she admitted that was luck. Bartholomew had instructed the Reapers to follow Sam and Dean to find Cas. Basically it’s the old butterfly effect. We don’t know how Sam being dead would have influenced the world, but we can make some good assumptions that things would be different.
I also have to add to the protests against your suggestion that Sam did nothing about the MOC as payback. For many, many episodes people on this board complained that they couldn’t see the point of giving Dean the MOC because he didn’t act any differently from when he didn’t have it. The Blade seemed to be what triggered Dean into dangerous and compulsive behavior. Sam repeatedly tried to get Dean to give up the Blade. Dean adamantly refused, becoming angry and borderline violent when Sam suggested it. Sam tried to mitigate the damage by having Dean not use the Blade or only bring it when it was absolutely necessary. Dean again refused. No, Sam didn’t dump the Blade, but Dean was acting as if Sam would have to over power him to get it away. We did see Sam researching Cain and Abel. In the end, I honestly don’t see what anyone wanted Sam to do about the Mark. It had been given to one person, Cain. It had never been removed from Cain. The screenshots show Cain with the Mark still on his arm even after he transferred it to Dean, so Cain still had it. So there was absolutely NO lore about what to do about the Mark and Dean. Dean didn’t want to talk about it. Sam didn’t have a plan or even a hint of an idea of how to remove it. Playing let’s experiment seems like a unproductive idea at best and a really bad idea at worst. Sam wanted the Blade to not be used , other than on Abaddon. Sam wanted Dean to be in control and Sam kept him from going off on a murderous rampage. I just don’t see any way that Sam wanted Dean to have the Mark, he just had no way to remove it.
Yeah I stand corrected on Charlie because I had mixed up the details of her. Still say Cas was a deadman anyway because Dean didn’t even find him except with Gad’s help and we saw Castiel already suffer two very close calls before that moment.
I’ll grant that the other angels are an arguable point. I don’t think the show did enough to establish their fates as anything to mourn but it’s a valid point that Sam might feel something nonetheless.
General reply to this point:
[quote]I also have to add to the protests against your suggestion that Sam did nothing about the MOC as payback. For many, many episodes people on this board complained that they couldn’t see the point of giving Dean the MOC because he didn’t act any differently from when he didn’t have it. The Blade seemed to be what triggered Dean into dangerous and compulsive behavior. Sam repeatedly tried to get Dean to give up the Blade.[/quote]
Again, trying to bring it into a whole, Sam probably had as much of an idea that the MoC would “damn” Dean as Dean guessed the angel might trouble Sam. In other words, more of a vague inclination with a belief he can fix it when the time comes.
You’re right about Sam & his reactions to the blade, but notice almost all of those occur AFTER this episode, moments when the effects on Dean start to become obvious. Not unlike how Dean started to become concerned about Gadreel’s actions much later in the first half, THEN he started trying to do something about it. Heh, it’s not well done but it is kind of funny that you can see a mirror between the brothers and reactions to the others’ condition. Neither decided to really take the other’s condition seriously until it was much too late.
It would have been a much improved touch had they let Dean have the perspective 1st half then focus on Sam’s 2nd with bookends of the perspective brother agonizing over the body of his bro.
Of course the big difference is that Dean took the MOC of his own free will and Dean gave “Ezekiel” Sam’s body out of Dean’s free will and indisputably against Sam’s. For me there is a big difference. Dean stated from the outset that Sam would not want to be possessed by an angel, that Sam would be mad when he found out. Dean went into the whole thing knowing that Sam would be troubled by losing his body to an angel without his informed consent, even if Gadreel had been quiet as a mouse. Gadreel kept telling Dean that Sam would evict him immediately if Sam found out he was there. From the start Sam was going to be “troubled” by the possession. Say your brother need certain medications he doesn’t want to take to save his life. If you give him those medications without his knowing, you should be checking to make there are no side effects, because your brother isn’t aware that he has any reason to think there could be side effects. If your brother starts to notice that things off with him, telling him that he’s wrong about his perceptions of himself when he is right is really counterproductive.
OTOH, If your brother comes home after a night drinking and even drug use with someone you dislike and distrust and acts the same way he always has, how can you tell him something is wrong? He’s acting the same way he did a week ago. What I saw was Sam taking action once it became clear that Dean was unable to control his anger and his violence. Yes, in this episode Dean killed a monster in his actions if a human in body rather slowly and without pause. In Bloodlust Dean was just as cold when he cut off the head of the vampire with a saw.
Sam had no idea there was an angel in him, so he had no reason to try and monitor his life and body for Gadreel going off the reservation. Dean did know and he needed to make sure Gadreel didn’t go off the reservation. It’s not like they have met thousand of angels who have behaved with honor and care for humanity. Dean knew he took the Mark. He had talked to Cain, who told him there was a terrible price to pay. Dean was on notice that he needed to see how it affected him.
I’m going to make an analogy here and for the record, there is NO good real world analogy to possession by an angel and taking the Mark of Cain, but I’m doing it anyway. Let’s say your brother, we’ll call hm Sam, has a condition that could kill him. Years ago he took drug, lets call it DB, that really messed him up. Then he took another drug, let’s call it “Lucy”, and that really messed him up. He ended up hallucinating and in agony and almost died. Now the only way to save “Sam” is for him to take a drug that is related to “Lucy” but is believed to have fewer, milder side effects and may not have side effects at all. Let’s call this drug “Zeke”. You know that “Sam” would outright refuse to ever take any drug related to “Lucy” again, no matter how benign it might be. So you decide to save “Sam” by tricking him into taken “Zeke”. “Sam” has NO IDEA that he has taken “Zeke” so if the side effects are losing time, or spacing out and having his body do things he is not aware of, “Sam” can’t monitor himself and say that “Zeke” is affecting him. That makes it your responsibility to look for known and unknown side effects. “Sam” can’t look out for himself, because he doesn’t know there is anything to look out for. You have taken that choice away from him. So not knowing that “Zeke” will eventually cause Sam to kill three people can not be excused by saying you didn’t think “Zeke” would be any trouble for “Sam”. It was your duty to make certain that your brother wasn’t harmed by “Zeke”. Now admittedly the doctor actually gave “Sam” a stronger, more dangerous drug than “Zeke”, lets Call it “Gad”. Even though you did not know “Sam” was given “Gad” and not “Zeke” you still have a responsibility to look out for any unusual side effects because you are the only one who knows “Sam” is on an Angel Class drug.
OTOH, you have another brother, let’s call him “Dean”. “Dean” is prone to depression, and guilt and he often copes by using alcohol and violence to get through it. Dean is part of the decision to give “Sam” “Zeke” and when “Sam” finds out what happened, “Dean” runs off with a lowlife creep, let’s call him “Crowley”. “Crowley” is a distant relative of the girl who gave “Sam” DB. “Crowley” has been an ally when it suited him, but he is really bad news. “Sam” was trying to redeem “Crowley” when he was overtaken with his deadly disease and you can see “Crowley” may have reformed somewhat. But “Crowley” is a born con artist and may well be faking or at least embellishing his reform. So “Dean” goes off with “Crowley” and ends up on a drug, let’s call it MOC. MOC is related to DB, but has the reputation of being much stronger and much more dangerous. Also, MOC is a drug that does not wear off. Once you have it, there is no known way to detox. So “Dean” comes back on MOC. But he isn’t acting all that much different than he did without MOC. Yes he was cold and when he was forced to kill a serial killer to save a life, but it was a SERIAL KILLER. In fact “Dean” has already stated [quote]You shove it down, and you let it come out in spurts of violence and alcoholism.[/quote] [i]6.14 Mannequin 3 The Reckoning[/i]. At least he’s not hunting down old acquaintances of “Sam”, deciding they are unrepentant serial killers and murdering them in front of their children. And frankly, “Dean has killed coldly before when he thought it was needed. So you watch “Dean”, but really, “Dean” is acting like Dean acts when he is stressed. Until one day when he obtains another drug, let’s call it “Blade”. “Blade” increases the violence in “Dean” it interacts with MOC and “Dean” is apparently unable to control himself when under the combined influences of MOC and “BLADE”. “Sam” is able to talk “Dean” down from these states and does so repeatedly. “Crowley” originally took “Blade” so that he could use “Dean’s” violence to his own advantage. Once “Dean” has killed “Crowley’s” rival (a truly dangerous person who had to be taken out) “Dean” regains control of “Blade” “Dean” refuses to give up “Blade” and is willing to get violent to keep it. You try to talk “Dean into giving “Blade” up. The main reason to use “Blade” has been fulfilled, but “Dean” will not give “Blade” up and may well become violent to keep it. How is this scenario in any way trying to get back at “Dean”? “Dean” was well aware there were dangers in MOC and “Blade”. He did not demonstrate any noticeable difference in behavior until he attained “Blade” and you did not have access to “Blade” until “Crowley” gave it to “Dean” so that “Dean” could kill “Crowley’s” rival. You have tried to talk “Dean” into giving up “Blade”. He won’t give it up and may kill to keep it. You have tried to convince him to cut back on “Blade” and use it only when you all agree that it is necessary, something you and “Sam” will never agree is necessary.
Look if someone gets drunk, then drives and kills someone they are and should be responsible. If someone drops a roofie in another person’s drink, then the person drugging the other person is responsible, not the one who is drugged unknowingly. To me, there is a world of difference between Dean “not knowing” that tricking Sam into being possessed would lead to trouble and Sam not knowing that the Mark would lead to trouble. In both cases, ONLY Dean had the knowledge of what was actually going on. ONLY Dean had received the warnings on the Mark. ONLY Dean knew Sam was possessed. People are responsible for their own actions. I doubt anyone would say that Dean was at fault for not seeing that Sam was influenced by the DB before he knew that Sam was. Certainly, Dean is seen as being right to not support Sam when Sam escaped the panic room and started using again. All of Sam’s actions are attributed to Sam. Dean’s situation with the MOC is very similar, yet you want to pin Dean’s damnation on Sam instead of the person who knowing took the Mark and who knowingly continued to use the Blade DESPITE Sam trying to convince him otherwise.
I agree with you Percy. Dean took on the MoC and I don’t think anyone could have stopped him from doing it. That was all on Dean. Once he had the mark and the blade he became too dangerous to even try to stop. Sam did his best to keep him under some control but it just wasn’t possible.
A lot good and I’m not even really arguing, this season was one big mess of bad writing and plotting.
[quote]Of course the big difference is that Dean took the MOC of his own free will and Dean gave “Ezekiel” Sam’s body out of Dean’s free will and indisputably against Sam’s. For me there is a big difference. Dean stated from the outset that Sam would not want to be possessed by an angel, that Sam would be mad when he found out. Dean went into the whole thing knowing that Sam would be troubled by losing his body to an angel without his informed consent, even if Gadreel had been quiet as a mouse. [/quote]
Partially agree, partially quibble. The consent conversation between Dean & Sam is full of ambiguities not the least hindered by the question of whether Gadreel was just pretending to be Dean in that scene or if Dean was really talking to Sam within Sam’s mind via some kind of mind-meld bridge (like in episode 8.08). Still, Sam was informed somewhat, but not given the full implication. LIKEWISE, Dean was told the MoC had “a price” (somewhat informed) but not given the full implication. What if Sam had been fully informed? (“Dude, you got to let an angel inside.”) Would it have been a definite no? Would the angel in question make a difference? (I think Sam would have less problem renting out his meat suit to Castiel than say… Zach.) I’m not confident that Sam would have been “no – no matter what” that it would have depended on the angel in question. Conversely, if Cain had told Dean, “Take this mark and not only will you never die, but you’ll become a demon, like me.” I think Dean’s answer would have been a pretty enthusiastic no. (well up to that point – had it been offered AFTER Abaddon scratched up the car…) I don’t disagree that there aren’t differences, but I think there’s two very big commonalities between them as well: Both brothers were tricked, and both brothers (on some level) let themselves be tricked. How subconscious was their allowance to be tricked? Well that’s what these boards are for, no? 😉
[quote]Gadreel kept telling Dean that Sam would evict him immediately if Sam found out he was there. From the start Sam was going to be “troubled” by the possession. Say your brother need certain medications he doesn’t want to take to save his life. If you give him those medications without his knowing, you should be checking to make there are no side effects, because your brother isn’t aware that he has any reason to think there could be side effects. If your brother starts to notice that things off with him, telling him that he’s wrong about his perceptions of himself when he is right is really counterproductive.[/quote]
Oh I have no doubt that Sam could have kicked Gadreel’s ass easily – this was the man that handled Lucifer, after all. 😉 Though how true it was that Sam would instantly kick out Gad is up for debate IMHO. I think had maybe the brothers had a heart-to-heart first thing out of the hospital (or as I joked long ago, as soon as Sam woke up he asked, “Ok, Dean, what did you do to me?”) that maybe Sam would have been a bit more understanding and accepting (especially if he knew that he had an instant “abort” button to cancel the deal any time). You’re right about the counterproductive bit and it was definitely the long cover up that (IMHO) hurt Sam far more than the actual possession.
Though I wonder… after this season I have a headcanon theory: that angels might be influenced in some manner by the vessels they possess (would go to explain why Gadreel seems a bit different between possessing Jared vs Tamoh). It’s ironic because there’s probably few people in the world that could understand Sam like Gadreel could (and vice versa) – both are trying to live down their encounters with Lucifer. Could Gadreel’s urge to hiding his true being from everyone have been inspired (or whatever) by Sam’s life long struggle to not be seen as a freak? I dunno, but the lack of interactions between Gadreel & Sam were one of the biggest missteps in this season.
[quote]To me, there is a world of difference between Dean “not knowing” that tricking Sam into being possessed would lead to trouble and Sam not knowing that the Mark would lead to trouble. In both cases, ONLY Dean had the knowledge of what was actually going on. ONLY Dean had received the warnings on the Mark. ONLY Dean knew Sam was possessed.[/quote]
Large agreement, but some minor quibbles. 1) As far as Dean knew the angel inside his brother (Zeke) was a stand-up guy, recommended by Castiel himself. To go back to your drunk vs spiked metaphor (an apt one I’ll grant you), keep in mind, however, that in such a metaphor, the person who spiked the drink was given the drug after being told that it was… say medicine to cure the drinker’s cancer (or maybe an antidote to a poison the drinker had). I bring this up only to point out that while Dean is plenty guilty, he was lied to as well. 2) Dean had just been told the MoC “comes with a heavy price” (or was it burden?). Now anyone reading Genesis 4 could have told you that. Heck the revelation that Cain was still alive [i]and able to transfer his mark[/i] was warning enough that there’s a “heavy price” to the MoC. Dean received no special warning about the MoC that Sam couldn’t also grasp after a second of common sense. (or least S1-5 Sam could have – maybe all those blows to the head have brain damaged him…)
[quote]People are responsible for their own actions. I doubt anyone would say that Dean was at fault for not seeing that Sam was influenced by the DB before he knew that Sam was. Certainly, Dean is seen as being right to not support Sam when Sam escaped the panic room and started using again. All of Sam’s actions are attributed to Sam. Dean’s situation with the MOC is very similar, yet you want to pin Dean’s damnation on Sam instead of the person who knowing took the Mark and who knowingly continued to use the Blade DESPITE Sam trying to convince him otherwise.[/quote]
No that’s not what I want at all and am confused how you came to that conclusion. I was merely positing how this time (as opposed to all the other times) Sam wasn’t fighting for his brother. Heck, when Dean was kidnapped by aliens Sam showed more concern and effort and that was when [i]he didn’t have a soul[/i]!
[[b]. Dean received no special warning about the MoC[/b] And Sam had no idea that demon blood was addictive when he started drinking it, or at least it seems unlikely that Ruby informed him about that. Yet Sam gets full blame for his use of demon blood, even though at the outset it let him save vessels from demonic possession.
1) As far as Dean knew the angel inside his brother (Zeke) was a stand-up guy, recommended by Castiel himself. [/b] Actually Dean knew that Zeke was a “good soldier” PERIOD. Cas gave no more recommendation than that. Let’s face it Michael was a good soldier who followed his father’s orders, but that didn’t make him a stand-up guy. When Balthazar tried to stop Castiel from going off and opening Purgatory he went from good soldier to bad soldier. A good soldier is not a great recommendation in and of itself.
I really find it bothersome that Sam’s taking his brother’s word he had found a way to save him and later that the was was that the doctors found a way to patch him up (which is what Dean told him happened) is equated with Dean knowing taking the MOC and not trying to mitigate the effects once they became obvious. Look if I’m lying in the hospital waiting for a kidney transplant and a loved one tells me they’ve found one, I am not an accomplice if they went out and reenacted the urban legend, kidnapped someone and stole his kidney. Placing any of the blame on Sam because he thought Dean had learned that any measures doesn’t include stuffing an angel in Sam without his informed consent is really pushing Dean’s as a relatively innocent bystander, while labeling Sam the one who made the REALLY bad decision. If you can’t trust your brother to not do something immoral to YOU in the name of saving you, that’s on him not on you for your belief in his goodness. This is especially true after season seven where Dean told Sam that Dean was his only link to reality and that Sam was not capable of telling a real monster, so Dean HAD to make that decision. That was followed by Dean’s reiterating that Sam can’t trust his own judgement because even though there was an agreement to let dead Winchesters lie (and Dean and Bobby BOTH said that was the agreement) that Sam was wrong to hold to that. Then he told Sam that Sam was not capable of telling a real monster so Dean had to shield a vampire from his mentally deficient brother who can not make the right decision no matter what he does. Dean spent two seasons telling Sam to trust Dean, not himself and now Sam is blamed for trusting Dean and not himself because he’s supposed to have magic knowledge about when Dean is lying?
As to how I came to the conclusion that you are blaming Sam for Dean’s damnation is this [i]However the Mark is needed for the mission so Sam leaves it on Dean, a[b] subtle payback[/b].[/i] To me, this is an outright statement that Sam is to blame for Dean keeping the MOC AND that Sam is doing it for malicious reasons, at least in part. I don’t think I would have bought that Sam was doing nothing because of mission related purposes, but the statement that he did it for PAYBACK really set my back up.
Yes… and more yes. I agree with you Percys, very well stated and argued here. Brava.
And sorry Nate, but I took your post as “Sam blame” as well. Perhaps that was not your intention, but it sure read like you thought Sam fully understood that Dean was being damned by the mark and deliberately let it turn him because he was pissed about the possession. That’s how your comment read and how I took it, and it seems from the responses, that many others here did as well. If you didn’t mean to imply that Sam deliberately left he Mark on Dean as some sort of playback or punishment for allowing him to be possessed then what did you mean? The word “payback” implies that Sam knew exactly what both the Mark and the Blade were doing to his bother and that he could and should have stopped it but didn’t because he was mad. Neither is true, but your post puts the onus of doing something about it onto Sam unfairly, which has been happening in the fandom since Dean took on the Mark. Some fans will stop at nothing to make Dean’s demonization Sam’s fault, including reorganizing the timeline so that Sam’s words in Sharp Teeth and The Purge somehow were why Dean took on the Mark (completely forgetting or ignoring that those episodes came AFTER Dean was already doomed) or by making up scenarios where they imply that Sam deliberately left Dean with the mark because he was mad about the possession. Where was that idea shown in any episode? It wasn’t in either dialog, action or the minuscule amounts of POV Sam was given, and it does a disservice to the character to imply that something like this occurred.
this is the conversation between sam and dean in the hospital in sharp teeth.
DEAN
Anything on Gadreel?
SAM
Actually, uh, yeah. Turns out he, uh, he left some Grace in me before he bolted.
DEAN
You know how wrong that sounds, right?
SAM
Wouldn’t worry about it. Cas took care of it.
DEAN [Chuckles]
Hmm.
SAM
What?
DEAN
Nothing. I’m gone for two weeks, and you’re like an episode of “Teen Mom.”
[From the bathroom: retching and coughing]
DEAN
Just breathe, Garth! Work it out.
[SAM notices a part of a scar on DEAN’s arm]
SAM
What happened to your arm?
DEAN [pulls up his sleeve so he can see it better]
Oh. It’s a… gift from Cain.
SAM
Like…the wrestler?
DEAN
I wish. That would be awesome. Uh, no. The, uh…The Old Testament dude.
[Toilet flushes in the bathroom]
He got all Biblical on me and gave me his mark.
SAM
What does it even mean? How — how did that happen?
DEAN
Crowley and I found him, and he gave me this so that I could eighty-six Abaddon once and for all.
SAM
You worked a job with Crowley?
DEAN
The devil you know…
during the conversation, which was pretty much just meant to be the setup for s10 as the moc was brought up and then put on the back burner till the very end of the season, sam did in fact ask about the mark and dean’s nonchalant response was that it would help him kill abbadon once and for all. sam’s concern was more that dean worked with crowley in the first place. the way in which this conversation went down, there was nothing to indicate and show offered no proof in either words, facial expression or action that sam was dubiously planning his revenge on dean….i didn’t see the obvious twirl of sam’s mustachio or even any subtle indication what so ever that sam was plotting his revenge..”.ah, my plan to get back at dean is complete: my self loathing brother took on the moc, which i have no idea what that even means, as it was simply just a scene put in so that i, sam, know the mark is there, but will mean nothing until dean’s final words and into next season when we have to find a way to remove it. ” the only reason that we the audience even knew that the moc was affecting dean was due to a few arms rubs and his soulful looks in the mirror. if we didn’t get those scenes then i wouldn’t have guessed anything wrong with dean or that he was doomed to turn into a demon. he acted no differently than usual when he’s feeling guilty about something. no alarms were going off to indicate dean was anything more than his usual guilt ridden self. as a matter of fact, as a viewer, it wasn’t until the blade was in dean’s hands that i even remembered about dean’s mark…
of course sam didn’t notice dean’s behavior til he touched the blade, as it was the blade with all the power. it was the blade interacting with the moc, but sam didn’t know that….all sam knew was dean was out of control with the blade in his hand, so sam understandably saw the blade as being the problem. as per the evidence given in sansummer1 posts, sam was totally unaware of what the blade would do in dean’s hands and totally freaking out and in panic mode once he found out. it wasn’t until dean’s final words that sam even realized it was in fact the moc that was changing dean….much like to dean’s surprise last season when he found out from sam that the trials were doing something to him, changing him.
“Again, trying to bring it into a whole, Sam probably had as much of an idea that the MoC would “damn” Dean as Dean guessed the angel might trouble Sam. In other words, more of a vague inclination with a belief he can fix it when the time comes.”
your opinion is just your guess and your personal take as indicated by you pointing out that sam probably…..there are those of us who have actually illustrated through dialogue and lack of support for this comment, that this isn’t in fact the truth…you don’t have any evidence to support your conclusion. no offense, but according to your posts, you are strictly going by a personal opinion of someone who just so happens to be a guy….
i still stand by those who disagree with your personal take….i’m not knocking that you have a right to your own way of seeing things, i just don’t agree that with how you see it…and given that i have seen no evidence to support your theory, i have to go with the evidence that i do see from show that, for me, from my own personal perspective, invalidates your notion that sam is trying to get even with his brother.
[quote]your opinion is just your guess and your personal take as indicated by you pointing out that sam probably…..there are those of us who have actually illustrated through dialogue and lack of support for this comment, that this isn’t in fact the truth…you don’t have any evidence to support your conclusion. no offense, but according to your posts, you are strictly going by a personal opinion of someone who just so happens to be a guy….[/quote]
Of course there’s no evidence, because (as I point out so often) this season was one big fail of writing – where episodes contradicted each other (Charlie’s in heaven – whoops, nobody, not even Kevin, can get to heaven) or even within themselves (we need to kill Crowley – oh Crowley’s helpless in front of us? never mind). Showing and telling were a mess. Sam was pretty much a blank slate with so little shown about him or his feelings that we could make up anything and have just as much support as anything else. What was Sam doing in his room at the end of Captives? Researching the mark? Throwing darts at a board with Dean’s face on it? Learning to juggle? Logging onto xbox live and taunting some kid about his mother while playing Call of Duty? It could be any of those because we just don’t know.
[quote]during the conversation, which was pretty much just meant to be the setup for s10 as the moc was brought up and then put on the back burner till the very end of the season, sam did in fact ask about the mark and dean’s nonchalant response was that it would help him kill abbadon once and for all. sam’s concern was more that dean worked with crowley in the first place. the way in which this conversation went down, there was nothing to indicate and show offered no proof in either words, facial expression or action that sam was dubiously planning his revenge on dean….i didn’t see the obvious twirl of sam’s mustachio or even any subtle indication what so ever that sam was plotting his revenge..”.ah, my plan to get back at dean is complete: my self loathing brother took on the moc, which i have no idea what that even means, as it was simply just a scene put in so that i, sam, know the mark is there, but will mean nothing until dean’s final words and into next season when we have to find a way to remove it. “[/quote]
Uh… yeah correction here but that’s not even typically how guys get revenge on each other except on TV. In real life… well it’s like the joke goes: A good friend gets you out of jail, a great friend is in there with you. The principle for guys is that your friends are there to either save you from your own stupidity, or share in it. Deep down we know we are big idiots, that’s why we pick the friends the friends we do. Thus, if a guy cross a line, very often the revenge his friend(s) will take will be a temporary shirking of said duties. In other words: letting you suffer from your own stupidity. It’s very rarely planned, it’s just recognized as inevitable. We’ve known Sam & Dean for only 9 years and even WE knew Dean was going to do something stupid, how much less do you think Sam, who’s been with his brother all his life, was expecting it? Guys don’t twirl their mustaches, you just get ready an “I told you so” and “now we’re even” (again, assuming neither guy just had a brawl to settle the score).
[quote]the only reason that we the audience even knew that the moc was affecting dean was due to a few arms rubs and his soulful looks in the mirror. if we didn’t get those scenes then i wouldn’t have guessed anything wrong with dean or that he was doomed to turn into a demon. he acted no differently than usual when he’s feeling guilty about something. no alarms were going off to indicate dean was anything more than his usual guilt ridden self. as a matter of fact, as a viewer, it wasn’t until the blade was in dean’s hands that i even remembered about dean’s mark…[/quote]
Again, in real life it’s because of crappy writing. The entire season was one big example of WDWWW (“we do what we want”). In the show world it could be worked around with things like eager to kill even innocent monsters (when we just had Benny the season before so Dean shouldn’t need the “not all are bad” lesson pounded into his head again) and the cold-blooded kill of a human was another sign given how much that horrified Dean when he saw his future self do it in episode 5.04. (Even though the kill was justifiable it was a personal morality line Dean was always loathe to cross.) But like I said earlier, in an ideal world the 2nd half of the season would have mirrored the first in themes with this time Sam worrying and watching in concern over Dean (just as Dean did at first with Sam). As it is? Pick what you like, it works just as well as any other. 😉
[quote]resurrecting Castiel and Charlie. Both deaths happened independent of whether Sam lived/died at the end of S8. Both are family and critically important to the missions. On a strict balance perspective, Sam’s possession killed 1, saved 2 netting a 1 life credit. [/quote]
I am not sure I understand this…. Sam possession killed – 3 military soldiers, Kevin, Abner, and that rock star d-bag angel at the very least. It was implied that while he was cleaning house for Metatron that he killed many more (angels AND their unlucky hosts). That’s 6 killed and 2 saved minimum netting a 4 death credit not a 1 life credit. Or are you only counting “family” because they are the only ones that are “important?” Sam’s whole point was that no one life was more important than another… is this only true if they somehow manage to count as “family” to the Winchesters? I think that Sam would consider any one of these death’s not worth the possession he was forced into, Cas and Charlie being saved or not. And if Sam hadn’t been possessed then Cas would have had no reason to leave the bunker therefore he would not have died at April’s hand. And had he been at the bunker, then Dean could have called on HIM to save Charlie, so she wouldn’t have died either.
[quote]If Sam had the priority sort Dean did, then ridding Dean of the Mark would be priority one as soon as Sam saw it.[/quote]
Sam CAN’T rid Dean of the Mark even if he had set it as a priority. It was ‘bequeathed’ to Dean by Cain because he was worthy of it. It’s his, never to be erased until he finds someone worthy of passing it on to. Since Cain has been waiting since the dawn of time to find a worthy successor I don’t hold out much hope for Dean finding or Sam finding a solution during Sam’s lifetime (I am assuming that Dean won’t age or die). Sam has zero control over what happens with the Mark.
[quote]Or are you only counting “family” because they are the only ones that are “important?” Sam’s whole point was that no one life was more important than another… is this only true if they somehow manage to count as “family” to the Winchesters?[/quote]
I’m only counting family because only the show does. If we’re going to start counting hosts of demons & angels… well remember back in S8 (IIRC) when Sam did a reverse exorcism to stuff a demon back into a body so Dean could stab it? Don’t get me wrong, I really do wish we’d have a return to form with the boys concerned over the innocents caught in the middle of the conflict but the truth is that the show hasn’t done that for awhile (S4 being the last we saw of it, really). Plus they’ve made the angels so unlikable (and done so little to rectify it) that killing them, even with host included, has never even once been expressed as a concern by any protagonist UNTIL Gadreel got stuck in Sam (oh then we had to find another way).
[quote]And if Sam hadn’t been possessed then Cas would have had no reason to leave the bunker therefore he would not have died at April’s hand. And had he been at the bunker, then Dean could have called on HIM to save Charlie, so she wouldn’t have died either.[/quote]
2 technical corrections. 1) Cas met April BEFORE he ever reached the bunker. He stabbed her (giggity giggity) then she stabbed him back before either of the Winchesters ran into Cas post grace. As I pointed out above, given that Dean couldn’t even find Cas without Gadreel’s help and Cas had 2 close calls (then 1 actual death) before Dean did find him, mortal Castiel surviving while Sam died is highly unlikely even if Dean had made finding him a priority. 2) Castiel would have been completely unable to save Charlie. He was still without any grace whatsoever at that point in the season and thus as mortal as any of the rest of them. Had Dean called on him, Cas could have – at most – stood around and twiddled his thumbs.
[quote]Sam CAN’T rid Dean of the Mark even if he had set it as a priority. … Sam has zero control over what happens with the Mark.[/quote]
That’s allowing meta knowledge to creep into character actions (which, let me testify, is really tempting and easy to do but is a big no-no that writers have to avoid). As far as we were shown Sam had no knowledge about the MoC, much less that it would keep Dean from dying (otherwise there would probably be less tears). I will make a bet with you that in S10 we’re going to see Sam doing exactly that: seeking out and trying to find some solution to Dean & the Mark. Will he be successful? Or will it be a heartbreaking disappointment forcing Sam to accept his helplessness? No clue though I could say how I would make bets…
Hi Nate – I think the only issue with the body count being presented by everyone is we just don’t know how things would have unfolded if Sam weren’t possessed by an angel. Always tough to play out these what if scenarios. We just don’t know if things would have played out the same way, whether Charlie would have even been called to the MOL bunker or whether the jar would have been knocked over to release the wicked witch. It was unlikely that Castiel would have been kicked out of the bunker if Sam wasn’t possessed. If that were the case, he might not have been in immediate danger but, down the road, who knows? Same thing with Kevin, though I suspect Metatron would have found a way to track him down eventually.
As far as the Mark of Cain and whether Sam was indifferent, I don’t think he was but it was true he didn’t know the ramifications. The other side of this argument is, if Dean didn’t bother finding out the cost, or burden of taking on the Mark of Cain, why was it incumbent upon Sam to do so?
And I agree with the seeming indifference to the vessels being occupied by angels and demons now. I can understand the brothers being cynical and jaded by their prior experiences, but this has been getting ridiculous – maybe they should check to see if the MOL bunker has a crematorium; much more efficient that building funeral pyres 😉
I doubt Sam would accept the argument that tricking him into letting an angel in resulted in Kevin dying but saved Cas and Charlie.
Sam’s belief about time / fate goes more like this, “[i][b]The lore all says the same thing — you change any one thing in the past, the ripple effect impacts everything that follows.[/b][/i]” (9.21 King of the Damned)
Thus, it’s possible that Kevin might not have been killed and neither Cas nor Charlie. If Sam had died, I doubt Cas would have made a pit stop and let his guard down so he could lose his virginity. In 9.02 Devil May Care, Sam asked if Cas can handle a road trip and Dean said, “[i]Well, Cas is a big boy. Things go Breaking Bad, he knows our number. Right now we got bigger worries [the fallen angels].[/i]” I think Dean would not have been as casual after losing his brother. Crowley tried to catch Kevin in season eight but he wasn’t that successful. Metatron got an inside man to do the job. Dean trying to deal with his grief means it’s less likely that Charlie would have been invited to come to the Bunker so she could take a look at a computer. In 9.04 Slumber Party, Dean was so impressed by Sam’s idea of tracking angels that for a minute he thought Zeke had influenced Sam. (Even if Wicked Witch had been let loose, it’s likely that Kevin (and Cas) would have also been at the Bunker in order to keep an eye on Dean.)
There is simply no way of knowing what would have happened if Sam hadn’t been possessed. So it’s very dubious to use Cas and Charlie’s resurrection as the upside of Sam being alive.
And when Dean decided not let Sam make a true choice and when Dean decided not to tell Sam what had happened, Dean wasn’t thinking that at least his brother could be used to channel an angel’s powers. If Dean had tried to pass that as a positive outcome of Sam being possessed, it would have been very disingenuous of him.
[quote]I’m only counting family because only the show does.[/quote]
No, only Dean does. Sam has quite clearly stated (in one of his completely rare moments of POV) unequivocally that for him “no one life is more important than another, not yours, not mine and not Kevin’s.” So, for Sam, it’s not about only the lives that count as ‘family,’ it’s about every life, like the soldiers who were taken over by demons and killed by Gad. Maybe they didn’t matter to Dean or to the show or to the fandom, but I’ll bet they would have mattered to Sam had he been allowed to show any type of reaction to anything regarding the possession this season and to their families and to me. It was the one and only thing that Sam asked of Death and the one thing that was violated the moment Gadreel used Sam to take his first human life in episode two. And human lives aren’t to be bartered anyway. Kevin’s death is worth it because somehow Charlie + Cas = Kevin? What if it was just Charlie? 1+1=2 and Kevin is worth a 2 so we’re square? This isn’t a financial transaction where we weigh the worth of one life against another to try and come out even in the end. I’ve said this before: in order for a fantastical show like Supernatural, with its monsters, demons, angels and magic to work then it must be firmly grounded in the morality of the actual world we live in or there is no way for us to take the world created within the show seriously (think Charmed). If TPTB, the characters or the fans are going to start weighing lives on the show by the value their worthiness as ‘family’ or because they are valuable in terms of the ‘mission’ then the entire point of this show becomes lost; the Family Business is negated right along with the nobility of what these two guys have sacrificed from their own lives so that the rest of us can be safe. There was a time when Sam and Dean CARED about the average person and even the person who was possessed against their will. There was even an acknowledgement of what that unknown, unnamed person must be going through and a little respect and concern for their plight as a victim. Remember the boys’ reaction to Meg1 in season 2 when they were exercising the demon out of her? Remember Bobby’s comment “There’s a real human girl in there” and Dean’s horror at the realization about what she must be suffering and then their attempts to help her once the demon was gone? Remember Dean’s remorse in the Rising of the Witnesses episode when Meg1 came back to plague him with his failure to save her? Where would that meat suit be today? Dead on the floor without a single thought. In order for this show to work and for us to be invested in it, we have to believe that the Winchesters would work to save US, that they would sacrifice and bleed and risk their lives for Joe Six Pack, or Average Mom or Oblivious Citizen #347 and yes… even Unwittingly Possessed Person or Meatsuit Volunteer (like April) because they are the ones most in need of saving of the Winchester variety. So would the Winchester brothers work or sacrifice to save a nobody lie me? By your definition not unless I could prove that I was important to them in some way; not unless I was “family” by their definition or a valuable tool that could be used. If the Winchesters are going to start weighing the value of the lives they save and trade one life for another seemingly more valuable life like a commodity then we are all doomed, and so is this show. Oh and BTW it’s +2 for Cas (cause Gadreel saved Jimmy too for what that’s worth), +1 for Charlie weighed agains -1 for Kevin, -2 for Abner and his meat suit, -2 for d-bag rock and roll angel and his meatsuit, -2 for reaper angel and her meatusit April, and -3 for the military soldiers possessed by demons (I am willing to not count the actual demons themselves, cause they were already dead). So that’s +3 to -10 since we’re counting… it doesn’t seem worth it to me, and I’ll bet if it’s ever addressed in ANY way (yeah, right), it won’t seem worth it to Sam either who was made to kill all these people against his will.
“Thus, what if the angel in Sam had been a good one? He and Dean would probably have their cleansing fight and then move on past it (Dean taking the beating would be his apology). But with Kevin dead and Metatron’s plans potentially underway the negatives and positives of the possession are almost equal. Sam’s not just angry but conflicted in trying to figure out whether it was all worth it or not. The run in with the ghostfacers adds more to consider for Sam. Thus when he hesitates at the door, he’s weighing whether to just have it out already or not.”
What good would that have done? Would it have solved the problem of Dean not taking Sam’s feelings and POV about something into consideration before making another decision for him? No, things would have just gone back to status quo and that is what is wrong with their relationship and has been since the pilot. Dean doesn’t care how Sam feels about anything. He only does what he wants regardless of the consequences. I also don’t think the negatives and positives matter a bit. This was about Dean violating Sam’s bodily autonomy. And saying he would do it again.
“This is also what’s behind the MoC. If Sam had the priority sort Dean did, then ridding Dean of the Mark would be priority one as soon as Sam saw it. However the Mark is needed for the mission so Sam leaves it on Dean, a subtle payback.”
I disagree that this was payback by Sam. I don’t think that Sam was in an emotional place to think about the MOC. He was trying to deal with what had happened to him and didn’t notice what was happening to Dean until Dean became more violent than usual. Dean has always been violent so it wasn’t obviously affecting him at first.
“Thus, what if the angel in Sam had been a good one? He and Dean would probably have their cleansing fight and then move on past it (Dean taking the beating would be his apology). But with Kevin dead and Metatron’s plans potentially underway the negatives and positives of the possession are almost equal. Sam’s not just angry but conflicted in trying to figure out whether it was all worth it or not. The run in with the ghostfacers adds more to consider for Sam. Thus when he hesitates at the door, he’s weighing whether to just have it out already or not.”
sam didn’t hesitate at the door in thinman, he hesitated at the door in captives. I still believe his fast exit from the room was due to emotional overload from all that he’d experienced…and his hesitation at the door showed him both hurt and yet yearning….he’s still conflicted and in an emotional upheaval after all that’s happened…which a lot of people seem to have forgotten because the focus has been on dean blowing out the candles and digging into the cake at his pity party he’s been having for himself of late. 😀
thinman reminded me of the end in a way. in the beginning of the end, dean went on and on with asinine declarations of the boys being weak together and it would be best if they stayed apart. the moral of the end was to show dean how wrong he was. thinman, had dean again making an asinine comment…telling sam he didn’t know which way was up or whatever stupid thing he said…but he was playing dumb as to what sam could be upset about… putting aside that that comment made dean appear either stupid or insensitive…I guess the point was that thinman finally made it clear for dean what he crux of the problem is for sam……secrets ruin relationships….so dean finally gets it. of all the crap that went wrong, now he knows what sam is pissed about….so thinman in essence keeps the ball in dean’s court. it also gives us a glimpse of sam and dean and we can see by both their expressions that they both don’t want to end up like harry and ed….neither one want’s the rocking chair empty….
imho, the point of the episode was twofold: get dean to recognize specifically what sam is hurting about and get the boys to acknowledge that they don’t want to end up like the ghostfacers, so they need to start dealing with things…. this is significant for s10, because I don’t think this point will be forgotten/dropped. the boys could have easily started to deal with everything in the following episode if the writers had chosen to tell the story differently.
as for your payback theory: I will never in a million years agree with your way of thinking. there is absolutely no evidence to support what you think. for one thing, sam isn’t thinking about missions. the only thing sam is thinking about is what was done to him and what he ended up doing as a result. like I said, the conversation in sharp teeth was quite nonchalant..in one ear out the other. the only thing sam seemed to focus on at that moment was dean working with Crowley..my guess is that the reason that sam focused on that was because dean ditches him and leaves him alone to deal but then he goes off hunting with Crowley…just more fuel added to sam’s fire…then they’re interrupted by garth….then sam has to make sure dean doesn’t ditch him…more lies, so obviously dean hasn’t learned anything….then they work the case…the end of the ep gives us a dean who just wants to pretend nothing happened, as if sweeping it under the rug will make it all ok…and a sam who can’t do that and finally draws the line in the sand…leaving the ball in dean’s court…the purge and captives again focusing the pain and the hurt sam is feeling….so far, no mission that I can see.
then we get bladerunners….the eppy which brings dean in contact with the blade. the only mission sam had there was to get dean to drop the damn thing. then we get the eppy where Crowley tests dean…he’s the one with the mission by the way. he’s the only one who knows what’s really going on…. sam goes off to save people…which as I recall, was dean’s mantra….saving people hunting things the family business. so now sam’s priority in this eppy was what used to be dean’s ….all dean wanted to do was track abbadon….this happened once before in ldc back in s3…dean was focused on the call from his father, or the crocotta, while sam needed to protect the girl who was scared to death. when sam learned what abaddon was up to he agreed with dean that she had to go. it was dean who was focused on the mission this time and sam who was focused on his family…..sam understood that abbadon had to die. he accepted that dean had to do it, but sam didn’t intend for dean to do it alone. dean sent sam to the basement as I recall. sam was reluctant to go, but as per the usual, sam abides by dean’s wishes. during this mission….sam’s priority was dean. the same could be said for the rest of the season as well…it was dean who was focused on missions….and sam was focused on dean. that’s what I saw as I was watching s9..which contrary to most opinions, I truly enjoyed. 😉
Nate thank you. This is a really nice take.
I actually have nothing to add except that as I have a big brother and it might help with the man point of view.
At least I haven’t had any trouble of their “interaction” except the obvious fighting but people fight and I personally hate fights. Just need to linger and wait that it’s over. 🙂
and to Cheryl, that might be true but also things might have been even worse. Maybe some others would have died instead of Castiel, Kevin and Charlie or still they would have died.
We can only act on what we saw because we know it. Different circumstances might be better or worse. And if you look at the history of the brothers being separate it usually ends up to the worse category. 🙂
– Lilah
I agree Lilah things might have been worse or nothing may have changed. Nate said that those deaths would have happened regardless if Sam lived or died. It’s hard to say but as I pointed out events would have unfolded differently if Sam had died because Sam was the catalyst for them being in danger in the first place.