WFB Deja Vu Review – Supernatural 9.07 “Bad Boys”
Sometimes it is a treat to watch a Supernatural episode and just enjoy the story. My rewatch of “Bad Boys” was an example of this kind of relaxed viewing. Sure, I was live tweeting with multiple people (on two accounts) so it wasn’t entirely relaxed, but my mind didn’t want to think of deep meanings or hidden agendas. “Bad Boys” was more about the past than the future. The story wasn’t steeped in the season’s arcs or complicated schemes. It was about the innocence of childhood, and the children who have had that innocence stolen from them. It was about circumstances, both good and bad, and how we just have to accept the hand we are dealt. It was about parenting and how sometimes only caring by-standers can navigate the balance being too protective and not protective enough. I didn’t think of any of that while I was watching the show, though. I just enjoyed learning about teen Dean, and watching Sam appreciate his brother, because to me, the boys is what this show will always be about.
Nightsky
Random Thoughts
Some of my very favorite scenes were shown in that “THEN”. Set the mood.
Dean & John were lying to Sam way back when. No wonder it’s Dean’s go-to.
Don’t all boys that age have that attitude [watching Dean sass the police]?
LOVE this music [the brothers’ theme]. Gets to me every time.
Why are they always in such a hurry to leave?
Again, LOVE the music [“Ave Maria”].
Not the first time a woman is attacked in a bathtub on Supernatural. What are they trying to tell us? [to which a tweeter replied, “Always have a Winchester standing by before you slip into that tub!”]
What could little Timmy have done to be placed in that home? Way too innocent. [In an example of good anticipatory writing, Sam explained Timmy’s circumstances later in the episode]
I don’t remember seeing that creepy hand the first time!
EMF rules out a demon? vs a ghost??
Sonny sure has his hands full with the history these kids bring to his home. Mom, car, accident drawing…
Good way to explain Dean’s drastic move on the action figure. That’s all it takes to clarify motivations.
REALLY outstanding makeup to create that ghost.
Timmy is going to need twice the therapy now!
…but Sam knew anyway, even though Dean lied. Sam really knows Dean.
I just realized there was no Gadreel in the episode. Huh. Just pure Sam and Dean.
Bookdal
Overall
“This whole episode, from the ages to the monster, just irritates me, tbh”, but “I don’t have to like something to appreciate what it does or tries to do. Liking is separate from appreciation.”
This episode was very much in keeping with earlier season episodes and for that I applaud Glass. He has a wonderful handle on Dean’s emotional center and his episodes often demonstrate that expertise. However, with that said, I do think the episode tried too hard to show Dean as being possibly normal which can either be read as the opening for his later (earlier seasons for us) resistance to the “normal” life or as out of character for what we know of Dean. This episode falls in line with an uncomfortable reading I have about the current writers – one is that they retcon too easily to fit the story THEY want to tell and often neglect the organic evolution that THE CHARACTERS have experienced. I know many people enjoyed this episode and for the most part, so did I, but I have to maintain my criticism that in some places this episode felt very out of place even as it was trying so hard to be historical.
Random Thoughts
Ah yes, kids. Give me a T. Give me an R. Give me an O. Give me a P. And then give me an E.
Reading Oz. So that was supposed to clue us into the theme, right? They’re all friends of Dorothy.
Wow, you know, the idea that John would let Dean rot in jail is beyond my comprehension but whatever. [Bookdal had some extended conversations with tweeters about how John was portrayed. Some saw his actions as justified, trying to teach Dean to not get caught for stealing, while others saw it as piling on the bad-dad caricature of the person John really was. These conversations continued after the episode as well. Lots of good discussion.]
Love the camera work in this scene.
Great color use in this episode – washed out to match the waning life of the farm. It’s well done.
Love the call back to brothers burning. I’ll give you that one, Glass.
It’s Danny Zuko Dean. He’s totally gonna get his varsity jacket for the firl. Watch and see.
I wanted this kid to so go Todd on these bullies.
I do like that this episode tries to show Dean’s sacrifices for Sam – he invested his future in Sam’s.
Nice parallel between dead mother and absent father as far as theme – both punishers, driven by revenge.
Part of me wants to see this kid as an invocation of Sam – smart, sensitive, etc. Dean always tending the echo of Sam.
One has to wonder, if he had Sam there, would he have gone back to John?
This episode tried to echo Home, btw.
“Sometimes you gotta do what’s best for you even if it hurts the ones you love?” Too much.
That was probably one of the most outstanding special effects of the season, right there.
Never realized but Timmy is dressed like a little Sam. Ha. Black t-shirt, jeans. Nice touch.
This is actually a painful episode if read in context of Dark Side of the Moon, but who am I kidding? Right? Laugh w/me ppl.
The young Dean actor is just amazing. If they do another one I hope he can play Dean again.
Gerry Weaver
Overall
My Takeaway: “Bad Boys” was a necessary episode. The scene where Sam at the bed peels away layers of identities to expose young Dean Winchester illustrates what’s going on in the episode for the younger Winchester. Every family has secrets, covered over with lies that become truths over time. And family position shapes so much of our identities. Sam and Dean grew up in similar circumstances, but different places in the family, and that shapes their knowledge of each other.
As the younger brother, Sam did not have the same access to facts as Dean did. John insisted Dean grow up and handle adult responsibilities, while Dean did his best to give Sam a childhood. Sam knows his brother well –better than anyone else—but there are gaps in his read of Dean. In season one, “Route 666” showed him one gap when he found out Dean in love was the opposite of love ‘em and leave ‘em. “Bad Boys” shows him another when he realizes Dean had his own dreams of leaving hunting.
Although Sam has always told Dean he can live a normal life, it’s still a shock for him to find out Dean seriously considered leaving the family for normality as a teenager. And that Dean was good at fitting in that life. Sonny knows a side of Dean Sam never saw.
I love that this information does not make Sam defensive. Instead, he steps back and drinks in all this knowledge, considers what it means. Sam has always known his brother sacrificed a lot for him, but not the lengths John was prepared to go to make sure Dean never made mistakes about Sam’s care. John does not come off well in this episode, but I think he was locked into his position with Dean. How could he offload his parental responsibilities onto Dean if Dean acted like the child he was? John had to insist Dean put Sam first, with screw ups treated as capital offenses, because if Dean didn’t take care of Sam properly, then John would have to. And John was obsessed with revenge.
I think it’s also likely John was on a hunt and couldn’t simply leave to act like a parent. He dropped off Sam at Bobby’s rather than returning to parent himself. But I think Glass meant to portray John as a hardnosed disciplinarian, which does not imply he didn’t also love his sons. Families are complex.
That complexity really comes to the fore when Sonny tells Dean, “I’m proud of you.” That line runs through the season. Dean had to father at far too young an age, but he had some strong father figures who helped shape him. John, Bobby –and apparently Sonny. Dean wanted so desperately to hear John say he was proud of him, but Dean actually heard the words from Sonny. And this season Dean says them to Sam when he’s saying goodbye.
“Bad Boys” shows the sacrifice Dean made when he returned to his family – but also that Dean does not view it as a sacrifice. His 14 year old self (I reject the change to 16!) is truly tempted by the idea of the life he’s built at Sonny’s, but when he sees his younger brother, he smiles as he makes his decision to stay a Winchester. He doesn’t return to Sam out of duty, but out of love. Love is the glue that holds Sam and Dean’s complex relationship together, here in “Bad Boys,” later in “Swan Song,” and I hope in season ten to come.
Nate Winchester
Overall
This episode does have a lot of charm, but comes off muddled in a few places, and not in the way of trying to be subtle or debatable. Is family toxic or is it healthy? Was John right or wrong? Was Robin just a rehash of Cassie (another sign of forgotten continuity) or her own character? After 9 years HOW have they not run into a ghost mom, before? With all the retro charm to this episode, why do the writers keep forgetting what makes Supernatural work in the first place? Hang on… I seem to have lost my point somewhere…
I’ll admit I’m somewhat skewed today since I just watched “Girl Next Door” (7.03) last night and the commonalities between the two episodes are enough to support a drinking game. Though I do think the S7 version is slightly stronger as it gave us insight into the characters (especially Sam) and the world they live in whereas this one… what was learned, really? Dean gave up a normal life for Sam? Meh, we knew that already with S6 (the ENTIRE point of the season nearly). When was the last time we saw the boys together in a flashback not involving the J2 actors? After-school special? Part of me wonders what if this episode had been a young S&D going undercover (perhaps their first time doing so?) at the boys’ camp to hunt down something. I think Dylan Everett & Colin Ford would have been great together. Wait… why wasn’t Colin Ford in this episode? (yeah he would have been 5 years over the supposed age of Sam but they make older actors play younger all the time).
Random Thoughts
“Thens” that cover pre-S5 always make me nostalgic for the old days.
I am impressed that ghost got the tractor started so fast. My dad is never that lucky with his.
Sam, spending time alone, doing what HE wants to do. They needed more of those moments this season.
Dean going all “3s company” with Sam & Gadreel is kind of funny.
Sonny’s “not quite Josh Brolin” look cracks me up every time.
I really want to make that EMF for some cosplay. Anyone have suggestions or a purchase site?
I would SO pay for a Bruce the monster smasher toy.
No seriously: Episode happens where a Bruce toy comes to life and it’s played by…. BRUCE CAMPBELL! (call me Jeremy, I’ll write)
I know it wouldn’t be as bad-ass, but sometimes I think the boys really should tool around in a backhoe more than the Impala.
WHY does anyone listen to “Ave Maria”? You’re guaranteed to die if you do. It’s not just #SPN, but EVERYTHING in Hollywood – that song is freakin’ cursed!
I like that they had Dean wearing his amulet in the flashbacks. It’s a continuity touch you actually don’t really expect this season.
Having just watched “Girl Next Door” last night, I feel like this is “past flings” week on #SPN. XD
Between Timmy & Ben, Dean really could make a decent dad. He should be one for a season.
If I ever find myself in a horror setting, first thing I’ll do is smash all of my lawnmowers.
I don’t think Dean ever really wanted to be a rock star, that’s just what he thought was the “right” answer.
My biggest issue with this episode is that the boys have NEVER run into an over-attached ghost mom before. Just saying that knowing a lot of moms out there (including mine own-love ya) it seems like that would be THE most common ghost.
Still don’t get why they had 2 different actresses playing ghost mom.
“I didn’t become a rock star” – No but you have saved the world enough times to qualify as one.
**
Maybe the calm before the storm, but I think we still all appreciated “Bad Boys”. What was your impression this time?
Yep my impression hasn’t changed. It was a very sweet story about Dean. I liked it very much.
John, in my head fannon dropped Sam off at Bobby’s and came back to keep a watchful eye on Dean much like he did with Sam at Stanford.
John probably didn’t have too much of a problem with stealing food as he did Dean losing the food money in a poker game.
I love that no matter what Dean will always choose Sam and not regret it, not for one second.
Yes poor Timmy is going to need much therapy like most of Sam and Dean’s almost victims.
A very sweet story.
Josh Brolin dang it! I was trying to think of that last night while I was watching, but all I could think was “it’s that guy for that horrible movie with Megan Fox!” It was really kind of distracting. 🙂
It was a sweet episode, and it really did have an old school feel to it. The salt and burn and the flashbacks, but the anvils are sometimes painful. We know that Dean gave up a lot for Sam, and Sam knows it too, because it’s been shown in more than one episode, so I wish they would have an episode where one of Sam’s old friends from college comes back and shows Dean just what HE missed in Sam’s life too. Maybe show him what Sam could have been if circumstances had been different, or show him how other people view Sam and give him some insight into his brother too. But overall, this episode worked as a creepy one off. I did love them showing them discussing the case and how to solve it together. It felt so natural.
There was the episode when the boys went back to clear the name of one of Sam’s college friends. That Skinwalker one… That’s showed some of Sam’s past and the friends he left behind. Then of course, there’s the pilot and Jessica. Dean saw that sacrifice too.
Epi 1.06
There was also epi 5.20 which revealed that a lot of Sam’s college life might have been manipulated by Azazel so…
Actually an episode/arc where Sam tries to figure out how much of his past is real or not would be interesting.
You’re right Nate. That would be interesting. I guess I’d just like to see more insight into Sam period, but we’ve all expressed that this season. I enjoy your insights, BTW.
True, but those were both in season 1. I think it would be interesting for them to run into one of his old college friends now (of course I’m talking about season 9), and see what the dynamic is and the boys react to how much Sam has changed and maybe what hasn’t.
I’m really liking this rewatch Gang Bang. Thanks for hosting it.
I liked this episode. It felt like old times for one.
The setting and the ghost and the scruffiness among that we see the “past” a little bit is always a joy. It was actually awesome that Gadreel stayed off this episode to let the boys have some brotherly time. And I actually liked Sonny and he didn’t remind me at all about anyone. But I would have wanted to see him as an old timer hunter than a keeper of boys home. Even though the actor did a good job on that too.
This episode reminded me also about the one where Dean and Sam was hunting the ghost in the school. Well, you have the ghost there, it is killing the bullies, John drops the boys there and goes hunting and Sam connects with the teacher that gave him good advice and was there for him telling he can make his own choises. Same as Sonny here did to Dean. Dean just never found out about the teacher like Sam found about Sonny.
Those are my random thoughts. 🙂
And the amulet indeed was a nice touch!
– Lilah
Duh, this is a lot like After School Special, I feel silly for not realizing that. (points to Lilah_Kane) So guess we could say this episode was a blend of After School Special & Girl Next Door.
Re-watching seasons has it perks. 😀
But mostly I first thought about the teacher and then my mind followed to the other similarities. I actually liked that Sam had that one teacher that even if it was short time made a lasting impression to Sam same as Dean that had similar with Sonny. Teacher is sometimes seen as the second father/mother and Sonny was also a short time second father to Dean and both gave the “normal” view and advises to the boys. But both still choose the “other life”.
I actually didn’t focus much on the age of the boys. Probably because of the similarity thing that filled my head.
And thanks for the points Nate! 🙂
– Lilah
The episode also ties to “After School Special” in showing why Dean would not want to make other connections with girls, and decided to go with the love ’em and leave ’em route.
A good episode with an earlier season vibe to it. Nothing new really learned about Dean, other than he had a taste of normal and liked it. I do think Sam knew about Dean’s desire for normal because he made him promise to go live that apple pie life in Swan Song. John Winchester was not painted in a favorable light, but, it’s complicated. The brothers have gone back and forth on their father over the seasons, with Dean sticking up for John at times, and Sam at others. I think they both agree that their father did the best he could under impossible circumstances.
Some minor problems with Sam and Dean’s ages, would have worked better as them being 14 and 10. The lie John and Dean told Sam doesn’t entirely add up when you think it thru, but still a nice episode. And Sam managed to stay conscious and not switch to Gadreel mode for an entire episode, a rare feat in Season 9 🙂
The live tweeting was fun, too. Hope you can continue it for the hellatus.
Thanks for the feedback! It is certainly our plan to continue the live tweeting and the Gang Bang series for all of Hiatus. I am hoping the CW cooperates and continues to rerun the episodes in order. I read something about one being aired this Saturday out of order, which will really confuse us! I seem to remember them messing around with the schedule last Hiatus, so I’m holding my breath. We can coordinate our own rewatch if we have to!
I liked the episode very much. It was sweet and sentimental and it was nice to see Sam and Dean working together like in earlier seasons. In S2 in the episode where the boys and John are ready to move in on the YED even John says something to the effect that he wanted Sam to be able to go to college and Dean to have a home. So there is canon that that was something Dean wanted at one time. They should have left the ages as they were written at 10 and 14 but that was a minor blip for me.
All in all, no dings for Sam, no Gadreel, and the brothers getting along was a nice respite for me and I liked seeing more about the brothers growing up.
For me, [i]Bad Boys[/i] is the worst episode of Supernatural I have ever watched. It ranks lower, IMO, than Bitten or even that spin off episode. It’s nice that you guys enjoyed it though.
seconded.I found it to be manipulative and ill-constructed.
Interesting that this episode rates so low for you, but that’s OK. There are a few very popular episodes that are on my do-not-watch list! We all like something different! Thanks for speaking up.
I hated Bad Boys too, lala2, but don’t rank it as the lowest ever…just close to it. I saw this entire episode as a ‘writer insert,’ that completely ignored previous canon about both Winchesters just to write a story that the writer dreamed up.
I guess I was just troubled by how much it changed the Supernatural landscape, and not in a good way, IMO. To me, the episode destroyed the foundation of the show. That’s why it’s the worst episode of Supernatural for me. I liked the original concept of two brothers w/different worldviews and perspectives: one always embraced the life, and the other always wanted to escape the life. That story made sense. It worked. I am okay w/expanding their universe or expanding on the characters, but whoever wrote this episode doesn’t seem to know the characters at all.
We spent several seasons w/Dean blaming and harassing Sam for going to college and seeking normal only to learn that he has also always wanted normal. If that’s true, why in the world was he upset when Sam went to college? Why did he blame him for leaving the family? He wanted to leave it too so what’s the problem? Why be angry w/Sam for doing something you lack the courage to do? BB, IMO, makes Dean a huge hypocrite and a loser. I would prefer to not view him that way so that’s why I see this episode as retconned trash.
I also hated the trashing of John in the episode, and while the actor was good, I hated the characterization for 16-yr old Dean. Some felt the Dean in ASS was off, but to me, the Dean from BB was completely OOC. And do I even need to say anything about the horrible, OOC characterization of Sam in the past and the present!?!?!? Ugh . . . . just an awful episode, IMO.
Absolutely and totally agree. I don’t view this as “evolving” canon as some do, I view this as an assassination of the fundamental set up of the show. I too liked how Kripke set it up; one brother who supported and enjoyed the “Family Business” and the other who wanted out. Each had their own POV that was some right, some wrong, some selfless, some selfish. It was balanced and worked well as a central argument. But now that is all messed up. I agree with you, this new development in the story turns Dean into a massive hypocrite of the “If I can’t have it, you don’t get to have it either” variety. It’s a totally unflattering character development that we are forced to contend with in retrospect and I don’t want to view Dean this way. Bad Boys is also one of my least favorite along with Taxi Driver (another canon killer). To me, these are the two most destructive episodes this show has ever produced.
Again, you know I agree w/your every word 🙂
I could accept a change in canon if I felt some genuine thought was put behind it, but that clearly didn’t happen here.
Agreed. I can certainly see how Dean could come to secretly want ‘normal’ over the years, especially in light of what both boys have gone through, the same way that Sam has come to embrace The Family Business in a way. But this contradicts the initial set up that was pretty much the establishment of the core conflict between the family and was a key element of the first five years. And like you said, the change to Dean’s essential character traits does not look like a well planned, well thought out evolution of the established story, it looks like a mistake made by someone who didn’t fully understand the foundation of the show.
When I read the description of this episode before it aired, I was so excited. To that point, I had watched most of season 1, and then I’d jumped to Sacrifice and then started watching season 9 from the beginning. Obviously, I’d missed quite a few important details about all those seasons in-between. Maybe because of that, I loved this episode. It helped me understand a lot more about Sam and Dean and what their lives had been like growing up. It helped me understand Dean’s motivation in allowing an angel posess Sam to save him. Until I started reading comments here, I didn’t think that anything seemed out of character or wrong with the episode. Now that I’ve seen all the seasons, I still like “Bad Boys.” I particularly enjoyed watching Sam discover a side of his brother that he hadn’t seen before.
I am so glad that there are others that also loved this episode. 🙂
I liked the eppy, but I can understand other’s complaints in regards to sam. I agree that they should’ve left the original ages, or at the very least instead of having dean be lost, they should’ve had dean run away. sam at the age of 12 buying dean being lost for two months? I don’t think so. sam buying that dean had run away…yes that I could believe. a major faux paux there, but nothing that deterred my overall enjoyment. 🙂
dean wanting normal is nothing new. he told sam in skin that he had dreams of his own. in wiawsb dean at his father’s grave asked, sam couldn’t get married, mom can’t have grandkids…so again, dean’s thoughts of normal. in daldom, he dreamt of normal with lisa and that was before he went and lived with her and ben. I know dean told Gordon that at 16 he embraced the life and I don’t think bad boys negates that as I believe he embraced the life after he left sonny’s.
always enjoy when sam gets to learn about his brother since dean doesn’t like to share.
I actually think this eppy ties in very well with my belief that the story being told here is the boys inner demons…most especially dean’s and his need to have sam in his life…when he told timmy that he had to do what was best for him even though it might hurt the ones he loves, I felt he was also referring to himself and the way in which he saved sam. the possession and the lying…dean is admitting here once again that he needs sam. sam is what’s best for him. of course dean loves sam too, of that there is no doubt…but dean’s core issue of lack of worth is the reason he needs sam so much…sam loves dean. as a child into adulthood, he relies on dean. sam looks up to dean more than he ever did his father…when someone loves you and needs you, it makes you feel important, worth something, and you want to be around that person who makes you feel that way, especially when you don’t feel that way about yourself. this ep is a reminder of why it is that dean goes to the extremes he does for sam.
hope we get to see sonny again. hope we get to see that amulet again. I know a lot of people had commented that a 12 yr old sam would never play with the airplane…..but I don’t think that’s necessarily true….especially if the airplane, as bruce the monster crusher was, a toy given by someone they love very much. I still think the airplane was a gift from dean and sam playing with it was one of the reasons why dean smiled when he saw sam….that’s my head fanon and not outside the realm of possibility. 😉
[quote]always enjoy when sam gets to learn about his brother[/quote]I do not like this because it happens in the show from one direction now a days.
[quote][b]that’s my head fanon[/b] and not outside the realm of possibility.[/quote]That is my problem with the episode.
One more thing I would not mind Sonny returning.
[quote]always enjoy when sam gets to learn about his brother since dean doesn’t like to share. [/quote]
But what exactly is it that Sam supposedly learned about Dean that he (or we for that matter) didn’t already know from countless other episodes that were done better than this one? That Dean sacrificed for him? He knows that; WE know that. The only thing that I can see that Sam learned that he didn’t know before was that both his brother and his father were complicit in a cruel lie, one of many that Sam was apparently told continuously throughout his childhood. The lies were so frequent seemingly that Dean can’t even remember what cock and bull story they supposedly told Sam this time around to explain Dean’s absence; so, I suppose Sam did learn something new about Dean, but it’s not particularly flattering.
And when was the last time we saw an episode that showed Dean learning about what Sam has sacrificed for him? Some here mentioned the Pilot and Skin, but those episodes showed what Sam lost, not what he sacrificed FOR Dean. Oh, and by the way, that was season ONE. The only thing Dean has learned about Sam lately is how Sam has screwed up and let Dean down
I really like your theory about why Dean wants to keep Sam around and saved him in 9.01. Sam is definitely at the core of Dean’s worth. Without Sam around, what really does Dean have to live for. He basically said as much in Croatoan when faced with Sam turning evil because of the virus. Dean didn’t come out and say it, but he did intimate that he would kill himself after he would be forced to kill Sam. So, your comments here that Sam is what is best for Dean really do make sense. Sam has relied upon Dean, looked up to him and needed him moreso than anyone or anything. And we all do need to have something or someone to hold on to that makes us feel important and worthwhile. I think that is why we have children, because they give us that kind of feeling, that kind of sense of importance. Without that sense or feeling, what is there? Just a bunch of raucous nights and partying?! There has to be something more to life than that. This is why Dean’s sense of self-worth is so tied up with Sam. Not having any children of my own or a husband, I have found myself floundering on many occasions because I often felt that nobody really needed me or wanted me around. My family all had their own lives with their spouses and children, and most of the time I have been an afterthought. So, when I got a job where the boss has come to really depend and rely upon me, I have found a stronger sense of worth and importance within myself that I had not as yet grasped on to. So, yea, I do understand why Dean goes to such extremes for Sam, and why Sam would not for Dean because Sam’s sense of self-worth was never wrapped in and around Dean. Dean was able to raise Sam in such a way that Sam was able to develop his sense of self-worth within himself. Kudos to Dean for having done so. Thank you for this insight. I had never read it explained this way, so I do appreciate this insight. It does explain a lot as to Dean’s behavior.
My view of this episode has not changed. It was manipulative right before Sam found out the truth of the possession , placed elsewhere I might of seen it has a innocent episode where again Sam learns something about Dean and what he had a chance of and walked away from for Sam but it’s placement and content made that hard for me. And even harder for Sam ……
Nope, even after a second watch, I can’t get past the wholesale disregard for canon for everyone in this episode. It re-writes Dean’s pre-pilot history, made Sam look bad as a child and as an adult and absolutely trashed John as a character for no good reason other than they needed a “villain” to be “mean to Dean” and John was convenient. The age difference gaff showed either a complete lack of fundamental background knowledge of this show or a wanton disregard for it; either way, it’s hard to overlook IMO. Also, the entire set up of the conflict was weird to me; why was Timmy, a sweet innocent boy whose mother was killed in a car crash sent to a place for delinquent boys in the first place? He wasn’t sent to a foster home or at least an orphanage where the other kinds weren’t petty criminals why???? Yeah, I agree with Sharon, the emotional manipulation, the flying anvils, Sam’s basic uselessness (although he DID remain conscious, so bonus!), poor characterization and trashed canon ruined this episode for me.
I can at least answer one of your questions. I also thought Timmy seemed out of place at the farm. Later in the episode, though, Sam commented that Timmy kept running away from foster homes/orphanages so “Sonny offered to take him in”.
Ah! I’d forgotten that part. Well, at least there was an attempt to make some sense of his being there. Although that begs the question; if Timmy was running away from foster homes, what was keeping him at Sonny’s Farm with awful bullies picking on him every day and people dying around the clock? It makes no sense he’d stick around Sonny’s any more than any other place he’d been staying and it’s not like those kids were on lockdown.
Ah, perspective! I know that AG tweeted that this was his love letter to Dean, and I guess that was all it was meant to be. My problems are 1) I do not like watching non J2 Sam and Dean unless it serves a purpose or has consequences. This did not have either. And 2) I did not think less of John for what he did to Dean but for what he did to Sam. The lie, the dropping off at Bobby’s. So much for spending some quality time with your youngest while teaching your eldest a lesson. That just made me sad. More than that, I was sad that it was never addressed,
Since the start of the episode began with a lie, which paralleled so many things in their lives including the current possession without permission thing, I expected the lie to have a purpose, and its discovery to have a consequence. It did not.
However, I already knew that Dean had given up normal to be big brother to Sam and it did not break canon to say he had actually considered it to be a burden. It was also telling that his later irritation at Sam for actually getting normal for awhile was his way of making sure Sam knew he had made a sacrifice, a conscious decision to give up normal for Sam. This is typical Dean as he has never been one to silently give of himself without wanting recognition.
Still, as this was meant to be nothing but a recognition of what Dean has sacrificed and since I already know that, and since I don’t really enjoy watching children, it really did not give me any enjoyment and I just ended up picking up all the things that were wrong or uncomfortable about it, what wasn’t said, opportunities missed. I was amazed that after 20 years, Dean’s name on the bed wasn’t under 60 layers of tape, but this is Supernatural. Either way, not one I will intentionally watch again.
Thanks y’all! You’re doing a great job!
Quoting thisoldbag: “This is typical Dean as he has never been one to silently give of himself without wanting recognition.” I don’t really think this is a true reflection of Dean as a character. He may be a jerk sometimes but he has never gone around patting himself on the back for the sacrifices he made. Nor did he in this episode. Most of the sacrifices have been told in flashback episodes such as this. I understand some people didn’t like this episode and have read all the reasons. I myself just thought it was sweet and inoffensive. I would have never have known about the big controversy had I not read all the comments here.
I knew that it didn’t come out right when I re-read it after I posted it. I love Dean, but he does have a tendency to expect something from the damsels he saves, which can be quite charming and funny. He does wear his burden on his sleeve sometimes and that can be misunderstood. That’s just Dean.
I’m glad there are those that enjoyed this episode, and when I don’t enjoy it, I actually enjoy your reasons for enjoying it. We are a complex and passionate group.
We are indeed! 😉 Just had to put in a good word for my boy Dean. His technique with the ladies isn’t always the smoothest is it?
ah true, but he has on at least one occasion patted himself on the back……:) I don’t blame him, it’s a nice back, I wouldn’t mind patting it myself. 😉
Dean: Would you look at that. Man, I am freaking velvety smooth.
Sam: You want to, maybe, open it up after you’re done patting yourself on the back?
😀 one of my favorite scenes of that eppy. ;):D
Yep he was in his element in that episode for sure nappi! 🙂 I liked how he reassured Sam he wouldn’t trade him for cigarettes!
Thank you! We want this to be the best place around to talk about our beloved show!
e,
i just thought it was nice that sam learned dean was a wrestling champ, as sam did get a soccer trophy. sam learning dean was complicit in another lie didn’t seem to bother him, at least not at this moment. but when sam learns about what dean did to him, i can see sam’s anger being doubly exacerbated just by knowing dean’s history of lying to him.
as for dean not realizing what sam has sacrificed to him, i disagree. if you watch larp and the real girl you do hear dean tell sam that he realized what he’s given up and that it wasn’t easy. dean also confessed what he’d done to sam to charlie, and charlie specifically made note that the text was a dick move and that dean had sam give up normal again. it was after that conversation that dean acknowledged, twice i think what sam gave up . i don’t doubt dean knows exactly what sam has given up for him over the years…as a matter of fact, i think that this knowledge of what sam has always done for dean enables him to emotionally manipulate sam on many an occasion.
In spite of the inability to communicate, these brothers know each other very very well which allows emotionally manipulation on both of their parts. In the course of the series I have seen both brothers push the buttons of the other because they are well aware of each others achilles heels. They know how to hurt each other, as only family can do. They are also well aware of the sacrifices each has made for the other but when conflicts arise sometimes these things get pushed aside.
leah,
I totally agree. I didn’t mean to imply that it was only dean. the conversation was regarding dean and I only referred to him….for that I apologize. those puppy dog eyes don’t only work on strangers…..they totally get dean every time.. and he knows it, which is why I think he told sam “just give her the puppy dog thing” and I can’t believe i’m totally blanking on which eppy he said it. 😀
Sorry nappi, I should have thrown in a smiley or two to indicate I wasn’t bothered by that.;) Just making a general point about manipulation which is often used in conjunction with Dean’s name lately. I had no problem with what you said at all.:) As for the “puppy dog thing” I am not sure which episode it was either. I do remember Dean saying something similar under his breath in Scarecrow when he wasn’t making any headway with the couple in the diner. “my brother would give you this puppy dog look and you would buy right into it” LOL.
The absolute best “puppy dog eyes” moment has to be the drunk Sam scene in Playthings. The way Sam says “promise me, Dean, promise” then unleashes those puppy eyes of doom (drunk puppy eyes to boot), looking up pleadingly at Dean from his spot on the bed, and Dean was helpless in their grip. I loved that scene!!
Me too E! There were some good scenes in that one. I also loved “Dude you’re not gonna poke her with a stick!!” makes me smile every time. No puppy dog eyes in that scene though. I thought the scene in Home at the hotel room when Sam convinces Dean they have to go back to Lawrence had some pretty good puppy dog eyes too.
That line is hilarious! Remember that time, they thought the old woman was a witch b/c of her upside down cross and then she woke up and said she was sleeping w/her “peepers open” or whatever. Sam laughed so hard! It was nice. Too bad there are no fun moments btw the boys anymore. We didn’t get any that I can recall this year!
I remember it well lala, Dean just about had an heart attack. 🙂 I do miss the fun moments. The moments when Sam got glee from Dean’s discomfort or when Dean enjoyed the hell out of teasing Sam. I hope besides the other issues we discuss, they can infuse some fun back into the series and the brothers relationship.
Heh, that crusty old lady was some terrific casting. She scared the crap out of me!
Haha! That scene was so funny. It brings a smile to my face. Too bad no scenes bring a smile to my face nowadays. It’s all doom & gloom all the time. No fun, light episodes. No comedic episodes like CYHIYB and TFM. The show desperately needs an infusion of fun and lightness but w/Dean being a demon for most the season and all, I doubt we’ll be getting that anytime soon. 🙁
I agree with all of those who think that 14 and 10 are the ages for the boys that fit best with the story. As I understand it, it was the way it was originally written, so I can ignore that. I actually liked it better on the re-watch. The first time, I did feel like it was a re-tread of things that we had seen before. And, a little heavy-handed with the “feels,” as well. Thinking about it in the context of the season, I think that it did have a purpose. Sam needed to see that part of Dean’s life; to realize that Dean had a chance for normal and chose his family. Because soon Sam’s going to find out about Gadreel. He needed this point of view of Dean to help him reconcile what Dean has done, even though it takes him a while to do it.
One thing that I have noticed, and it’s not really a big thing – Sam has been rubbing the back of his head. It happened in “Devil May Care” after Gadreel had surfaced and then put Sam back in control. He does it in this episode when Dean is talking to him about being sent to Sonny’s. I have seen it a couple of other times. I would love to find out if Jared put in that mannerism to show that Sam is subconsciously aware of Gadreel. Sam’s usual mannerism is to run his hand through his hair from the front.
[quote]Sam has been rubbing the back of his head. It happened in “Devil May Care” after Gadreel had surfaced and then put Sam back in control. He does it in this episode when Dean is talking to him about being sent to Sonny’s. I have seen it a couple of other times. I would love to find out if Jared put in that mannerism to show that Sam is subconsciously aware of Gadreel. Sam’s usual mannerism is to run his hand through his hair from the front.[/quote]
Interesting! Now I am going to have to watch for that!
I believe this episode was filmed prior to the one with Charlie and Dorothy going off to Oz. If it was, then it was a foreshadow. If not, it was Sam sort of giggling about Charlie’s time with the bunker as a fond memory showing that Sam still has that sensitivity to others but needs a trip down to the past to see Dean’s old bed and trophies to realize that Dean had sacrificed much. It played out with Dean telling Timmy he had to do what was best even if it hurt others. The most disturbing scene and yet still touching in the feels was Sam leaning out of the Impala playing with a toy. If the canon has always been there are 3 years btween the boys, the actor who played boy Sam looked way too young for Sammy as a child. I can see the parallel to Timmy’s toy and Sam’s being from a loved one, but the casting could have been more believable despite the short( but necessary) scene. The episode so rounds out Dean’s dreams. Except for the demon blood, he truly is Sam’s brother. Of course, now he has full demon blood so buckle up.
[quote]The most disturbing scene and yet still touching in the feels was Sam leaning out of the Impala playing with a toy. If the canon has always been there are 3 years btween the boys, the actor who played boy Sam looked way too young for Sammy as a child. [/quote]
In canon there is 4 years and 5 months between the boys. Dean was born January 1978 and Sam May 1982 so the age gap is much bigger. But even so, the age gap still reads completely off in the episode. If Dean was supposed to be 16, Sam would have been just turning 12 that spring. There’s no way that kid in the car passes for 12. If Dean was supposed to be 14 (as Adam Glass originally intended) then Sam would have just turned 10. Either way, that kid actor does not work. Sam had found out about the family business nearly 2 years before (if he was 10) and almost 4 years (if he was 12) and would have been in training. That kid in no way reflected a Sam who knew how to shoot a 45 (the gun John gave him for the monster under his bed) or the smart, sensitive child wracked by fear over what his family did for a living that we saw in AVSNC. Very poor casting and even worse characterization.
[quote]The most disturbing scene and yet still touching in the feels was Sam leaning out of the Impala playing with a toy.[/quote]
Ugh . . . I’m sorry but that is the scene that drives me the most insane!!! I guess if you count blind RAGE as “feels,” then it got me in the “feels.” Haha!
As you pointed out, that kid was WAY TOO YOUNG to be Sam at that time. There is no way a 12-year old Sam would be hanging out of a car window, playing w/a toy airplane like a moron! No way! That one scene goes against EVERYTHING we’ve been shown about Sam. And even if the kid was supposed to be 10, his characterization is still way off for Sam. How is 8-year old Sam in AVSC more mature than the 12-yr old Sam in BB?!?!! Huh?
ARGH!!!! Sorry…..I loathe and despise everything about this crap episode!
Sorry, I mixed up the episodes. The first scene that I noticed the head rubbing was in “I’m No Angel.” Dean is talking to Sam about taking care of himself because he had been out running and had gotten breakfast. Gadreel took control and warned Dean about the angels organizing, then relinquished control back to Sam.
My feelings about this episode have not changed. I enjoyed it as much this time around as I did the first. I liked how Sam learned a little bit more about his brother outside of his family dynamic, and understood a little bit more about Dean’s sacrifices over the years. I just wish this new knowledge might have played out a little bit when Sam learned about Dean’s manipulation to have Gadreel possess and heal him.
I liked it how Dean didn’t want to make a big deal about his experiences here and always downplayed it when Sam wanted to. I also liked it how Dean connected with the little lost boy, Timmy, much like Dean was and in some ways still is. Dean is always so good with kids and I do love to see him connect with them on their level.
However, I didn’t care for the negative picturing of John in this episode. I do think there would have been a way to have John depicted in a better light than what was done. This only created more negative food for the fodder for those fans that like to hate and vilify John at every turn they get. We just don’t get a complete picture of John, and from Dean and Sam’s POV it is always going to be skewed. I just wish Show could be a little more consistent in their depiction of John instead of always being all over the map about him. I admit, John was not father of the year, but I do think he gets far worse treatment than he deserves.
All in all, a fairly good episode. I do like the brotherly moments. This did have a feel like the earlier seasons. It was nice to have this one because I do think it might have been the last time we actually have the brothers in harmony with each other. I miss our brothers being in harmony with each other. So, this episode is a breath of fresh air in many ways.
You know Evelyn, I was one of the few people, very few who didn’t think the references to Dean’s bruises were meant to indicate that John did it. My mind did not go there for a second. Of course I could be wrong as I am in the minority but I thought there was a scuffle with the cop and Dean’s ego being what it is, he said it happened on a hunt. At the same time he glanced over at the cop as if to dare to contradict him thus admitting to knocking a child around. I always thought John was tough as nails and you’d BETTER NOT disobey him but I have never doubted he loved them very much and would never lay a hand on them. Dean and Sam referred to Dad being furious a few times but nothing was ever said by them indicating they were physically abused. Just a few vague references that could have been them talking about his temper which they had a healthy respect for. Just my take.
I really enjoyed the episode too.:)
I agree Leah. Sonny noticed Dean’s bruises and then they both looked over at the cop who clearly had a black eye; Sonny even mentioned a scuffle with the cop, that’s when Dean came up with the werewolf story. What they did to John in this episode was awful enough as it was, using him as “mean father” to set up the scenario of Dean in reform school, I would hate to think they were setting him up as ‘abusive father’ as well. That’s just over the top vilification IMO and highly manipulative. I already think the episode was manipulative enough without adding in, “Dean was abused his whole childhood, didn’t you know that Sammy? Oh, I guess not, because he was too busy protecting you so that you could be safe.” Yuck.
not just you leah….I never thought the bruises were from john…I always thought that dean got the bruises while on the werewolf hunt.
I thought those bruises were from John. It was the dodgy way Dean responded to Sonny’s question. I don’t recall the cop having a black eye though, but then I only saw the episode the one time it aired and have no desire to watch it again.
[quote]I liked how Sam learned a little bit more about his brother outside of his family dynamic, and understood a little bit more about Dean’s sacrifices over the years. I just wish this new knowledge might have played out a little bit when Sam learned about Dean’s manipulation to have Gadreel possess and heal him. [/quote]
Oh boy, this just about perfectly sums up why I hated this episode, because I think that Sam learning about Dean’s sacrifices in the past as a means to mitigate Dean’s guilt over the Gadreel possession is EXACTLY what this episode was supposed to do, and that is so incredibly unfair to Sam and what he suffered due to Dean’s decisions. What Dean did in the past, what he sacrificed on Sam’s behalf was A) entirely up to Dean, he made that choice of his own free will, B) totally unknown to Sam, so he couldn’t even appreciate the sacrifice at the time and C) has absolutely nothing to do with current events whatsoever. You can’t use sacrifices like money to pay off a debt created at a later date.. it doesn’t work that way, but that’s exactly what the writers did here with this wretched set up in Bad Boys. Dean sacrificed his perfect normal for Sam when they were kids, and that’s great, but it in NO WAY makes Dean less culpable in the current situation as the two acts, committed 20 years apart, have nothing to do with one another. Dean’s sacrifice when they were kids does not absolve Dean of the current lies or the trickery or using Gadreel as his own personal weapon when ever he felt like it. I think its awful that this is where the writers went with this episode. It’s like they are saying, “well, yes Sam, Dean did a really, terrible, terrible thing to you recently, but you aren’t allowed hold it against him because when you were kids he gave up a lot for you, so it’s pretty petty of you to be mad now.” Bad Boys was Dean’s Get Out of Jail Free card. What a way to diminish what Sam’s been through and feeling, geez. It’s like a lawyer trying to argue that his client, who robbed a liquor store and killed the owner shouldn’t be punished this time around because the last time he robbed a liquor store he let THAT owner live, so, he should get a free pass on the murder. That’s pretty much what this episode did though, created a sympathetic out for Dean in advance of Sam finding out about the possession so that Dean wouldn’t end up looking so bad. Well, to me he still looked bad. The possession was still awful, and cruel and manipulative; not to mention hypocritical given Dean’s reaction to Sam when Sam wanted to use Dr. Benton’s medical methodology to get Dean out of his demon deal in season 3. Dean abjectly refused to “become a monster” and “live that way” he wanted some quality to his life and he demanded Sam honor his wishes, which Sam did. Too bad, when the shoe was on the other foot that Dean couldn’t manage to show Sam the same level of consideration.
I hope that this didn’t come out too harsh. I liked your post over all it was very insightful, but that one line jumped out at me and pretty much triggered everything I’ve hated about this season; the sympathy generating for Dean to help him look less guilty, and the total lack of any sympathy or insight into what Sam must have been going through, first being possessed and second reliving every shady, questionable and violent thing Gadreel did while wearing Sam like a three piece suit. Sam didn’t just kill Kevin, remember? He also killed three military soldiers, the reaper vessel April and the angel Abner, who was supposedly Gadreel’s best friend. But did we get any insight into what Sam might have suffered? Nope, all we got was Dean’s endless guilt and a whole bunch of sympathetic Dean thrown our way so we wouldn’t be too hard on him. So not only does Dean end up with sympathy from the audience that I don’t think he deserves, but Sam’s lack of sympathy makes him look like an asshole. So, now we have a case of lets blame the victim because he’s a jerk.
As for the rest of it, I totally agree with you about John. It’s terrible what they did to his character in this episode. Why couldn’t they have had Dean arrested and thrown into the “system” when they couldn’t find John, and then John spent the next two months trying to to wrangle the paperwork to get Dean out? Why did they have to make him so cruel? It didn’t sit well with me at all, and actually goes against the established canon that John was tough but loved his boys and feared greatly for them, always keeping them close to him to keep them safe and ready. The fact that they would have him abandon Dean to a boys home and Sam to Bobby’s and do who knows what for two whole months just seems so totally OOC and unnecessary to the story. Just another facet of this episode that I absolutely hated. The nice “feels” and cute little Timmy can’t begin to mitigate all the bad in Bad Boys; not for me at any rate.
I have a basic difference of opinion about this episode so agree to disagree on that. 🙂 However I don’t see the example of Doc Benton as even close to being the same situation as what Dean did to Sam. Except both Dean and Sam were both driven by desperation to save their brother from death. Doc Benton killed and carved people up for their body parts and used them to prolong his life. Dean wasn’t in ICU on life support with moments to live. He was conscious and able to discuss it with Sam. Dean thought an angel was going to heal his brother. No one was getting carved to pieces to save Sam. As far as he knew Sam wanted to live. Sam only seemed to accept death when he thought he had no other options and he chose to die based on that! Then a choice was offered and he took it, there were only seconds left. Was it wrong to trick Sam into letting an angel possess Sam? YES! Did he take away Sam’s choice in the matter. YES. Should Dean have just let Sam die when he had just talked about the light at the end of the tunnel not long before? Probably. But he thought he was healing his brother and even though he KNEW Sam would hate the method he felt it was worth the risk of Sam being furious. I AM NOT excusing it, just attempting to be in Dean’s headspace when he was sitting beside Sam and watching him slip away. And I would like to say that if there had been more time and Dean could have had an actual conversation with Sam, he wouldn’t have done what he DID do in desperation IMO. In spite of what many here think I believe Dean does respect Sam and value Sam’s opinion. But when it comes to Sam imminent death or putting Sam in a situation where Dean feels they might not make it out alive he loses all ability to think rationally. Now as for the writing of both characters in recent years, another story. 🙂
I wasn’t really making a comparison between the situations, I was actually trying to show how each brother has a very different response to matters of autonomy. Both brothers were in danger of dying (Sam imminently, while Dean had some time) and both brothers were searching desperately for a way to get their brother out of the critical situation they were in. The point I was trying to make was that when it came down to Dean saying “no” to creepy Dr. Benton’s creepy methods, Sam honored that decision. Dean had very strong ideas about the kind of life he was willing to live (one that didn’t include slaughtering innocents, or “becoming a monster”) and Sam honored Dean’s wishes despite the fact that he disagreed and desperately wanted to get Dean out of his deal. When it came time for Dean to honor Sam’s wishes about how he lived, that he too didn’t want to become a monster who killed innocents (as outlined in the episode only moments before) Dean did not do so. He forced his decision about what was right, about what HE wanted onto Sam regardless of what he KNEW Sam would want. The deaths Kevin, Abner, April and three soldiers was the result. You could say that they were the victims, carved to pieces just the way Dr. Benton’s victims were. Just because Dean didn’t know in advance that they would be killed does not make them any less dead. If Dean is going to make these kinds of decisions for other people then he must accept responsibility for everything that comes with that decision, which in this case included 5 dead people killed by his brother’s hand. I just want Dean to let Sam make his own decisions about how he needs to live his life, what he’s willing to sacrifice and then abide by those decisions even if they feel like the wrong thing to Dean and even if that means that Sam dies. The double standard here drives me crazy, and I can’t quite tell where the show stands on this issue. I certainly haven’t seen much support for Sam’s position in the past few years.
I got your gist E. I just thought the situations were so different that it is hard to say what might have happened if the circumstances were more similar. Sam was able to TALK to Dean. Dean was not in a coma minutes from dying. He honored Dean’s wishes yes, but would he have if Dean had been seconds from death and Sam had to do something or let him go. He was, in his desperation to save Dean, willing to go the icky Doc Benton route knowing full well how Dean would feel about that. That’s why he kept his reasons a secret for awhile. Or might he have done something Dean would have hated and Sam would have regretted? As Dean did. Dean made the rushed decision and because of that a whole chain of horrible things happened not the least of which was Sam feeling (justifiably) betrayed and deceived.
I do think he regretted it. He tried talking to Sam about Gadreel a few times but got derailed by Gadreel telling him the result was Sam’s instant death. He tried to talk to Sam a few other times and Sam left the room. I believe he tried to apologize in the finale and Sam said “I know” before he got the words out. His saying earlier he would do it again wasn’t him saying he was GLAD for all the tragic aftermath. I think he just can’t ever see a time when he would willingly let Sam die. There is no one he would put before Sam
Anyway apples and oranges IMO except for the fact that each faced with the death of their brother and that is a hard one for both Sam and Dean.
I enjoyed this episode; a little history of the boys is always welcomed. I enjoyed seeing Dean’s ability to be good with kids. I joined others in thinking the choice of actors and the ages of Sam and Dean were not in sync with Ep. 4.13 After School Special (Colin Ford nails young Sam) and had to ignore it. I think Dean was too angry and caustic with Sam in this episode. Dean grabbed the phone from Sam, barked orders, ignored Sam’s thank you at the end and seemed overall annoyed with Sam. It seemed unwarranted; the brothers were not yet fighting and the MOC was not yet transferred. I think character Dean should have been allowed (written) to let Sam see this glimpse of his past without being pissed off. It could have been an opportunity for a little bonding. Anyone have an idea why Dean was so rude to Sam in this episode?